kenneth roman- the king of madison avenue (unplugged)

8/7/2019 Kenneth Roman- The King of Madison Avenue (Unplugged)

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e King of Madison Avenue (UnpluggA conversation between Kenneth Roman & Moe Ab

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The King of Madison Avenue (Unplugged) !Kenneth Roman with Moe Abdou!

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A b o u t Kenne th Roman & M o e A b d o u

K e n n e t h R o m a n

Kenneth Romanis an accomplished author, board member and formerChairman/CEO of Ogilvy & Mather Worldwide - the highly regarded

advertising and communications firm founded by David Ogilvy. Ken joinedOgilvy & Mather in 1963 as an assistant account executive and served asits Chairman from 1985 to 1989. In his 26 years with the agency, he wasinfluential in securing major clients including American Express, Unilever,Kimberly-Clark and General Foods.

Moe Abdou

Moe Abdou is the creator of 33voices — a global conversation about thingsthat matter in business and in life. [email protected]

!!!!!

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This is Moe Abdou. I am delighted today to have Ken Roman with me. Notonly is Ken a bestselling author, and his latest book The King of MadisonAvenue was just a great portrait of David Ogilvy. I remember reading a lotof Ken’s work years ago when he wrote a fabulous book on writing.Hopefully, we can get into that a little bit today.

Ken, thank you so much for joining us.

I’m happy to be here.

I want to start with your friend, David Ogilvy. You have an absolutely beautiful portrait in The King of Madison Avenue about David; a lot of things that I didn’t know although I studied a lot of his work. As I wasreading it, a question popped into my mind. What didn’t the world know about David?

That’s the right question. David wrote about himself a lot. I almost didn’t writethis book because he had told his story in several books, in his autobiography,articles and the interviews. What else is there to say?

There are a lot of things that I had found but the most important thing I foundis this, David was seen at the time, and to a large extent still is, as a creativegenius. During the 50s and 60s, he wrote about half a dozen highly esteemedcampaigns. He is in Copywriter’s Hall of Fame and all that stuff.

The thing that most people didn’t understand and that I think your audienceshould understand is that he was an instinctive leader. He was an institutionbuilder. The way he built his agency is very instructive.

You know what, because that pop. I’m going to jump to my questionnumber 5 that I had on my list and maybe it’s appropriate to talk about itright now. I’m really curious, what kind of a leader was David. How was itto work with him?

He didn’t learn anything in a business school or an MBA. He didn’t even finishcollege. He said he was thrown out of Oxford but he really dropped out; but hestudied. He studied successful people and successful organizations. Heinterviewed people or I should say he interrogated them. He learned fromsuccessful people.

The thing that I can’t figure out is how the hell did he do it? He didn’t have anybusiness experience, none. He was a chef in Paris. He sold cooking stoves inScotland door-to-door. He worked with George Gallup in Hollywood doing

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research in the movie business. He was a farmer in Pennsylvania. He worked inthe British Secret Service during World War II. He had no exposure to businessor advertising. How did he do it?

The first thing he did is he observed. He learned from every experience. Forexample, he went to work in a French kitchen. That’s the one in Paris. Hewatched the head chef, Monsieur Pitard. This is something I think the peoplewho are listening to this broadcast would appreciate. How do you keep thesehot-tempered French cooks who are yelling at each other and throwing food inline? The first thing he did, he learned leadership from Monsieur Pitard. He alsolearned high standards. One day he was working on some brioche or somethingand Pitard says, “My David, what is not perfect is bad,” so high leadership andhigh standards.

Then he goes up to Scotland to sell cooking stoves and he sells them door-to-

door at the depths of the Depression and he becomes their most successfulsalesman. That turned him into a salesman. He said, “I learned no sales, nocommission -- no commission, no eat. That left a mark on me.”

And then he goes out to Hollywood and he works with George Gallup doingoriginal research in the movie business. He learned about the value of research.So all along the way, he was studying, learning, and growing and then he wroteeverything down and he instilled it into our agency through training programs.

When he came to New York, he befriended Marvin Bower, the man who built

McKinsey, and he studied McKinsey. McKinsey believed in training so he put intraining programs. That’s the thing that holds McKinsey together and it verymuch held Ogilvy & Mather together.

Ken you mentioned something that I think is very important. Yet, a lot of people would say that I do understand the fact that if you follow and learnand model successful people your chances of succeeding are probably improved. Why do you think it’s difficult for people to follow through onthat? Is it offensive intimidation maybe of successful people because all of us can go do that?

There is a reason why biographies sell well. You read stories of successfulpeople and you learn from them. I think most people do model them. The issueis how can they put these things into action? You asked, what’s it’s like workingwith him. First of all it was fun. He was fun and he was funny. He wasn’t just asober guy walking around giving out orders. The way he did everything had atouch of drama in it. He was never boring.

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For example, there was a meeting of the board of directors and he had takenthese Russian nesting dolls, you know, big one small one inside with thesmallest one all the way down. He had put one in front of each of the directorsthen they came in and he said, “That’s you open it up.” So big dolls, smallerdoll, smaller doll and around the smallest doll, he had put a piece of paperaround the tiniest doll.

He said, “If you hire people who were smaller than you are, we’ll become acompany of dwarves. If you hire people who are bigger than you are, we shallbe a company of giants.” So he said, “Hire big people; people who are betterthan you. Pay them more than you have if necessary. That’s how we build agreat agency.” If he had said, “We should hire better people, ” everybodywould have saluted and said, yeah and forgotten it in 10 minutes. Nobodyforgot the Russian dolls. He dramatized the important management principles.

You say people don’t pay attention to other people in terms of studying them.I’m not sure that’s the case. They observe. So they say, this organization hiresgreat people. But if you say, hire people who are better than you, that takessome courage and you got to be told to do that.

You know what, that’s a great point because I briefly shared with you thatfor 24 years, I had a wealth management firm. It’s really funny because my number one responsibility was always hiring and developing individualsand entrepreneurial individuals. That little quote has been on my deskliterally for years and years and years. If we can get into that segment for

a second, I’m curious, tell me about the biggest person you hired. It’s a good question. I didn’t make too many bad hires. I made one bad hire. Ishould have fired him right away but I didn’t. That’s a very good question Moe.

It isn’t just a big person. For example, we had a creative director in New Yorkwho was doing a good job. He is a bit of a clown. Nobody took him seriously. Idid because he did some great ads. One day, I said, “We need a new head of our Los Angeles office,” and I moved him out there. People said, “You’removing Jerry out to Los Angeles? You got to be crazy.”

I mean, he was an okay creative director and he’s never run anything. I said,my feeling is that that office -- which had Mattel and clients like that inSouthern California -- needed a creative head, a creative person as the head of the office.

Jerry turned out to be a homerun. He was a star out there. He fit right in tothe culture. It was an eccentric casting. It wasn’t right out of the mold. He

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grew into that job. That was one of m better decisions. It wasn’t higher but itcertainly was a successful move. I built a different career. He became the bestknown advertising man on the West Coast.

That’s a brilliant eye for talent.

Well, you have to figure out what it is the job needs. I sent another guy fromNew York over to run our Unilever account in London and he built it in to ourlargest client in the world.

I’ll tell you a good one I hired. When I took over the agency, American Expresswas a highly regarded account creatively but we never made much money on it.Everybody is fighting about fees. It really wasn’t a great success within theagency. Outside, it was very highly regarded.

And then Lou Gerstner, who later became head of IBM, took over at AmericanExpress. He had just come from McKinsey. I said, “The nice people who havebeen working on the American Express account, he’s going to eat them forbreakfast.” I think I better make a change.

In the meantime, I came across a fellow who was at Citibank. I had metoriginally at General Foods so he knew consumer packaged goods. He was vicepresident of marketing at Citibank. He said, “I don’t like being a banker. I wantto get out of here.” So I hired him. I said, “If I’m going to pick somebody towork on the American Express account, I want somebody who is trained in the

disciplines of packaged goods marketing but also understands financialservices.”

Well, Brendan Ryan went down, I brought him in. I moved him on one accountthen he went on the American Express account. He was a star. Within a coupleof years, American Express had replaced Unilever as our largest client in theworld. We had changed the compensation plan and it became our largest, mostsuccessful and most profitable account in every regard as well as being a greatcreative account.

The point I’m trying to make is, I figured out what the client needed. I gotsomebody who had those skills and I brought them in and it worked perfectly.Does it always work? No. I told you, I made a couple of bad ones. That wasgood one. He was a great success.

Obviously, that level of thinking was embedded in your culture. There is noquestion that the agency was the gold standard and is still the gold standard in the world.

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Tell me how you guys continually build that culture where the level of confidence for anybody in that agency was embedded in them? That hey, I can go out and hire people better than me, older than me, more respected than me and have the confidence to work with them and coach them?

Some of that comes from David Ogilvy himself. He created a culture that wasAmeritocracy. A lot of people say those things but he really did it. He had notime for prejudice of any kind. He hired women. He offered hiring women,minorities. Business, for a long time, was nothing but a WASP culture in the 50sand the 60s then it started to change.

Ogilvy also said, we won’t hire relatives of clients or relatives of anybody in theagency. He said, no spouses, no nepots and no nepotism. You rose or fail on thebasis of merit only. You could have no favoritism. So that was where it startedwith the founder.

We really took training very seriously. Training was regarded as a privilege. Youcouldn’t get in to our training programs unless you had a fairly goodperformance rating. Everybody who came in went through an indoctrinationprogram. After that, you would have a certain performance level in order toget into our training programs.

Furthermore, as you rose up in the company, if you didn’t participate in thetraining program as a teacher, who said, we can’t promote you much more.Because if you’re not doing the teaching around this place, who is going to do

it? We didn’t go out and buy training programs. We created our own trainingprograms and those are very much in the McKinsey model.

Let me give you a McKinsey story. When Harvey Golub, who later becamechairman of American Express and a few other things, was at McKinsey, he wasthe youngest partner, the youngest guy to make partner. He was one of thehighest producing partners in terms of financial results. They took him at theheight of his career and they said, we’re going to take you off 50% of yourassignments for a year and a half, or something like that. We want you torebuild our training programs.

They took one of their most productive partners, one of their best partners,not the one who wasn’t doing much. They took a successful guy and said, wewant you to really recast our training programs. For most companies, whatwould they do? They would say, we couldn’t take this guy off that accountbecause he’s too important. He’s producing that revenue. We’ll take so and sowho is not doing much. So you have the least good people creating the trainingprogram. You got to turn the logic upside down.

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That’s what’s so impressive about your work about the agency and thethings you guys have done. While some people think it was unconventionalwisdom; to everybody, I’m assuming in that agency, that’s the way thatyou did things. You hire great people. You train them really, really well.You pay them well and then it gives them the sense of confidence to go outand get big accounts.

Well, not even just do big accounts, to do great work for clients. That’s what’sreally importany. You see, everybody is always talking about new business.How do you get new business? We found that year after year, no matter howwe cut it, about 60% of all of our new business came from current clients.That’s a very important concept.

That is, if you really did a great job for a client, that client would find newthings for you to do; new products, new services, new projects. Or, that person

would move to another division in the company and say, “Hey, we need Ogilvyover here.” Or, they move to another country or they move to anothercompany.

Lou Gerstner left American Express and after one other job, then became chief executive at IBM. He fired all of IBMs 20 or 30 agencies and hired Ogilvy &Mather, there was the largest new business win in the history of the business.That came from doing great work for him at American Express.

I’m a huge advocate of that Ken. Let me ask you this question, how about

the other 40%? What type of work was involved in securing that other 40%?I’m assuming a lot of the listeners out there today understand thereputation that you guys have built. What is the thinking process of acquiring the other 40%?

No two accounts are the same. No businesses are the same. It’s all different.

In our business, in the advertising business, we did research as to why peoplehire us or didn’t hire us and what they are looking for in an agency. So you dosome research to understand what your strengths and your weaknesses are andwhat prospects and clients want. We found a very simple formula which I’mgoing to make too simplistic for you.

In the advertising business, you win new business on your creative work not onyour marketing, not on your global network, not on your marketing service, noton your media. You win it on the ability to produce creative work that builds aclient’s business.

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The converse of that is you never lose or almost never lose a client because of your creative work. You lose it because the relationship is broken down. Yousee in the paper, we change the agency because we wanted a fresh creativeapproach. That’s baloney. The reason they say that is because they don’t wantto say, I really don’t trust you anymore to solve my problems.

But I don’t want to say that. I want to say we need a fresh approach. So nobodygets hurt. They disassemble. They don’t tell the truth. What happens is theperson who has been running the business moves to another account and theclient doesn’t like the person who has moved in. Or, the client has changed anda new advertising manager or a president comes in. They don’t know you andthey have a good relationship from some other place. That’s a differentrelationship. So when the relationship changes that’s the riskiest time. That’swhen you lose business.

Let’s talk a little bit about the state of the advertising and communicationworld today. I know that technology has changed a lot but in your opinion,what hasn’t changed?

The business has changed a lot. I’ve been out of it a long time so my views areperhaps less relevant than other people who are in the business. I would stillthink the basic purpose of advertising is to sell a client’s product. There is a lotof advertising that wins awards and that’s terrific. The important thing is doesit sell a client’s product? There are certain basic communication skills that onecan learn. I think you have to have people in the advertising business devoted

to understanding the client, what the client needs totally not just ads.You have to take the broadest point of view and say, I identify with the successof my client. If I’m doing good ads but they are failing, you have to say, whyisn’t it working? Maybe the product isn’t right. Maybe the package isn’t right.Maybe the promotion isn’t right. Maybe the media isn’t right. You shouldidentify with the client’s success. You never want to be identified with failure.

At one point, Bristol-Myers was a client of ours. We did the advertising for Bandeodorant and something else. They came to us with a new product to competewith Alka-Seltzer. We think that that product is not going to make it. They said,we’re going to introduce this thing. We’re going to sell three products into thedrug trade. If you don’t advertise this somebody else will.

We had warned them that are all we can do. We went ahead and did theadvertising for this new antacid. The product failed and they blamed us. Theysaid, “You did lousy ads.” We got fired on Ban I think as I remember. The point

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is you want to take a total approach to your client’s business and identify withthat client’s success. Never touch anything to do with failure.

Give me an idea of the thinking process that takes place or that took placefrom the moment the agency receiving a client engagement to finaldelivery, was it a small team that was assigned to work on an engagementor was there a different process?

No two clients are the same. An entrepreneur, that is one person, you dealwith him. David Ogilvy dealt with the presidents of the clients. Today, it’smuch more product managers. There multiple levels in clients. You can’tgeneralize on that.

If you are an entrepreneur today with tight budgets as most entrepreneursare, what would you do to start building your brand? You are a brand, by

the way, with the work that you’re doing.

Thank you very much. I’m not sure I’m a brand but thank you very much. Letme think about that.

If I were starting out I would figure out, do I really have a product or servicethat meets a need? If not, I would save my money before it gets too longbecause people fall in love with the ideas and they don’t want to know why itmight fail. Particularly, if you’re on a tight budget, not everybody has a richuncle and can go around spending money launching companies.

I would do everything I could to make sure I have a really valid idea and I wouldlisten very carefully. I would get the very, very best advice before I didanything. I would talk to the investment bankers. I would talk to the peoplefrom research. I would talk to competitors. And then I would find who are thebest people in the business. Who are the best people in the business? Whoknows more about this than anybody else and I would try to hire them.

Ten years ago, or actually longer than that now probably, you wrote afabulous book on writing. The title I believe was Writing.

Writing that Works . It’s done pretty well.

I think it’s in the third printing now ?

It’s the third edition. I rewrote the thing three times completely.

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Talk to me a little bit about some traits or some of the better traits of great copywriters out there. At some point, we’re all copywriters and we’ll get into kind of how to send an email and write a letter and so forth.Everything that we’re doing I believe has something to do about who weare as individuals.

You got two different subjects. Let me separate them. Writing copy, writing anad is one skill. So much has to do with knowing the customer and presenting itin the right way. You might have a television commercial with no words at all,no copy. It might be all visual. You might have an ad that’s a page that is allprint, the whole thing, and no visual. Every product is different. Every marketis different.

I was a writer and I wrote some ads but I’m really not a copywriter. The kind of writing I’m talking about is how to communicate in business which has to do

with persuading people that you have the right idea. How do you communicateeffectively? How do you get things done?

When I wrote the first copy of my book, the Writing That Works book, it washow to write good memos and letters. I said, what’s the model of the bestmemo in the business? It’s the Procter & Gamble memo. We never did any workwith P&G but the reputation in the business was they were the best memowriters. So I studied them and I put their principles down in this book.

Then the second edition came out and by this time, computers had come in.

You see how old this thing is. So I talked a little bit about writing on acomputer. When the third edition came out, the publisher said, we need afresh new third edition, some fresh examples and a chapter on email. I said, I’llwrite a chapter on email and then a few fresh examples. I found out everythinghad changed.

As your audience knows, people don’t write memos and letters. They writewhat? They write emails and Power Points. The whole communication structurechanged. In effect, I wrote the book again. And then I said, “Wait a minutenow, Power Points -- who is the master of the presentation deck?” It wasMcKinsey.

So I went to McKinsey and I said, how do you teach your young partners, youngassociates to write Power Points? Actually, one of our partners wrote a book onthat subject. I got the book and I put those principles in there. You try to findthe best people in the area and distill what they have learned and present it toyour audience.

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The last edition of the book talks about emails, presentations, proposals, and ituses those disciplines.

Tell us the right way to craft an email. We’re all inundated with emails.Talk to us about that.

I love writing emails. The first thing you have to do. Well, think about howmany emails you get. How many do you get?

Hundreds. It’s probably literally 200 a day.

The first thing you want to do is you can’t deal with them all. The ones thatget your attention are not the ones that have a subject line with “Re” this and“Re” that. You don’t even know what it’s about.

Or Forward. Why should you do this? On the other hand, if you got an email with a subjectline which is ‘Urgent: Budget Crisis,’ I got to pay attention to that or ‘Urgent:Charlie’s Leaving.’ We can’t lose Charlie. The subject line is one thing.

Then after that, you make sure you send it to one person, not to 20 people. If you send it to 20 people -- okay, somebody else will take care of it. You thenhave to say, a long email, your eyes glaze over -- you have to get to the pointfast.

When I write an email, an important one, I cut, I rearrange, and I spend time. Itake an email and I boil it down to one or two key paragraphs. That’s all peopleare going to read. You can put attachments on. You can do all these otherthings but you really want to get to the point simply, forcefully, powerfully,urgently, compellingly until people cannot ignore your email.

You have to tell them what you want them to do. So you edit, you keep cutting.You go through an email and you delete about half of it and make sure youstart fast. That’s all it is. It’s very simple. You got to make the subject headingclear and you got to cut to the point. I mean that literally, cut to the point.

I’m sure you get lots of emails. What ones do you open up? What inspiresyou? Is it just the subject initially?

Well it depends. Sometimes it’s the person who sends it to me. When acompany, if your boss sends you an email you tend to open it right? If your

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client sends it to you then you pay attention then the next thing is the subject.I’m talking about things that appeal to me and I have seen appeal to others.

How about PowerPoints? We’re all again inundated with PowerPoints.Personally, I’m not a big fan of just a PowerPoint presentation. I know thatyou have some ways that Power Points can be a bit more inspiring and abit more compelling. Can you share your thoughts on that?

There is sort of a pyramid principle there. The way you get information in aPowerPoint even though it’s 15 slides, they are all in sequence. It’s a pyramid.You start with what’s the major idea on top, the abstract idea? And then youhave the minor points underneath that. If you think of it as a pyramid with themost important point and underneath there are following points that expands it.

It’s like an email again. You keep things simple. You keep on target. Tell the

audience where you’re going. Think about headlines not labels. For example, achart that says ‘trends.’ Well, what does it say? Instead use something like‘Low price competition is gaining’ or ‘Conclusion.’ What is the conclusion? Wehave to improve service. Think headlines. Think headlines not labels.

Great advice. Obviously, the internet has also dramatically changed theway people advertise. In some ways, it has become much more accessiblebut because it’s so crowded, it’s difficult to grab attention. As you kind of see the evolution of what’s happening with technology, what are your thoughts on what’s happening on the Internet and how do people grab

attention with Internet advertising? I don’t think anybody has really figured that out. When I was promoting mybook on David Ogilvy, I had found that there were several hundred thousandpeople on Facebook who listed the show Mad Men as one of their favorite shows.

Since a couple of my reviews had called David Ogilvy the original madman, I dida little ad. I bought some ads on Facebook which said ‘The Original Madman’and a picture of the book and it said, Newsweek, Business Week, somebodyelse, BBC, all called David Ogilvy, the original madman. When I did that I couldmeasure the clicks and I could see my sales rank go up in Amazon. The greatthing about digital advertising is that you can measure it. It’s measurable andaccountable.

Now, I did the same thing on Google Adwords and it didn’t work as well. When Ihad a chance to run another flight of ads, I ran them on Facebook not onGoogle.

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Are you active with social media Ken?

No. I have a Facebook page but I’m just so busy. I don’t correspond. My kids allcorrespond with each other on Facebook. I friend people but I don’t really useit. I’m a lousy Facebooker but I am very good emailer. I respond within minutesof getting an email as you noticed in dealing with me.

No question about it and I really admire that. Is there a brand out theretoday that you most admire?

A brand of what?

Just a brand, any company-business that you really admire?

Yeah, I think there is. Some people have asked me who is the David Ogilvy of

today? I said, I’ll think about that. There is nobody in the advertising businesslike that anymore. There are people who are big people but nobody who areknown around the world. I mean, David Ogilvy was the most famous advertisingman in the world. Not just in New York, Chicago and Los Angeles.

The brand that I clearly admire today is Apple. I think Steve Jobs is a creativegenius. He has kept his product and his image consistent. From the product tothe design, the packaging, the instructions, everything is consistent and it hasnever changed. He has a remarkably clear idea of what Apple is all about andhe keeps on innovating within that umbrella so people know what to expectfrom Apple. He both it keeps it fresh and revolutionary.

I think the iPad is a game changer. I don’t think it’s because of my friendssaying you got get an iPad because look at what you can read on it. It’sbecause companies are buying iPads by the tens of thousands to use for theirsalesmen, their service operators, airline pilots are buying them. I really thinkthat what he’s created is a very big idea. I think Apple is a brand that hasshown remarkable capacity for growth and consistency and innovation.

You mentioned design, there is so much talk nowadays about the designbeing central to any company out there whether it’s designers who are ontheir board or designers who are playing big roles in their company. Isdesign used loosely out there or do you feel that just almost design ingeneral is really critical from the thinking process for any business outthere.

Design is part of the brand. You can take a sleek design like Apple and that’sone image. You can take a design like the Jack Daniels bottle and label and

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their ads which is old fashioned goodness. It’s just consistent with their image.I think design is important with them.

I think a lot of the car companies don’t have the foggiest idea about design. Iwatch the Super Bowl ads and those car commercials blended in to each otherfor me. There were so many of them. Did one stand out? No, I don’t think onestood out really. The only one that stood out for me was sort of CarMax wherethey said, you can buy any brand.

I think what’s going on in the car business is that other end of what good designis in terms of differentiated design. You could take, what used to be in mymind good design, Volkswagen -- consistent image, ads, product, andeverything else. Mercedes Benz; engineering, on the road, test tracks, thingslike that. I just think a lot of things fade. Volvo for safety. I don’t see anystrong images like that anymore.

The people that are the top of those agencies are changing. I got two morequestions for you and I’m going to let you go. Is there something inparticular that is grabbing your attention currently that’s keeping youmore inspired than anything else you’re doing?

I’m always looking around for new ideas and things. I’ll tell you the thing that’sreally -- there are two things going on, one is the world are changing very fast.I’m a big believer in the writing of Alvin Toffler who wrote a book calledFuture Shock . He said, “Change accelerates at an ever increasing rate.”

In other words, there is more change and it’s coming at us faster. How doorganizations deal with change? That’s a subject that I have given somethought to over time because it’s very hard to change an organization and it’sparticularly hard if you have been successful. You don’t want to change andthat’s how companies go out of business or lose their edge. That’s one idea.

I don’t know maybe there is another. Thank you for not asking me aboutmadman. Everyday somebody says, ‘Ken Roman, advertising, what do you thinkof madman?’

Is there a favorite quote that you have of David?

One of the things he built on his business was, ‘We sell (period) or else(period).’ We’re all in the business of selling something. I think that’s what alot of advertisers could benefit themselves if they remember they areadvertising selling. I don’t have a favorite quote but it’s a clear one.

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It is very clear to me as well. That’s what inspires me about the kind of work that we’re doing is to be able expose those types of messages and the thinking of brilliant minds like yourself with the world. I’m just totally grateful for you to give us your time today.

This was fun. Thank you very much. I hope a few people find something that’shelpful.

A bunch will.

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kenneth roman- the king of madison avenue (unplugged)

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