criminal district court parish of orleans •state of
TRANSCRIPT
ORIGINALi«
4 ---------------------------- :
CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT PARISH OF ORLEANS
•STATE OF LOUISIANA
198-059 1426 (30) SECTION “C"
PROCEEDINGS IN OPEN COURT FEBRUARY 19, 1969
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR.,JUDGE, .SECTION "C"
Dietrich & Pickett, Inc. Qimayijjp'aJA
333ST. CHARLES AVENUE. SUITE 1221 NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA 70120-522-3111
STATE OF LOUISIANA VERSUSCLAY L. SHAW
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16'17
IS
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
WITNESSI N D E X
DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSSRICHARD R. CARR 2 7 10 21
-- 31 3 i
• 333 SAINT CHARM'S AVENUEDIETPiICII & PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • suite 1221
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
1213
14
15
1<J17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:Call your next witness.
MR. GARRISON:Your Honor, Mr. Carr is unable to walk
because of a recent accident, and we understand the Defense has no# objection, if the Court will permit, to have Mr. Carr wheeled right in front of the State Counsel table.
THE COURT: . ..That's all right. He can testify from
there.RICHARD RANDOLPH CARR,
having been first duly sv/orn by the Minute Clerk, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. GARRISON:Q Mr. Carr, we can hear you if you speak into
the microphone, sir, and it is important that the Jury be'able to hear you and Defense Counsel over here (indicating)
Iand the Court Reporter. What is yourfull name?
A Richard Randolph Carr.Q And in what City do you live?
1 - ■ - - —---——— — ■ ■ -DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. • court reporters • sum 1221 • jd saint ciiarus aveni'k
12
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12'
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A Dallas, Texas.Q And what city were you living in during the
month of N0vember, 1963?A Dallas, Texas, 322 North Canden, oak Cliff.Q Can you recall the day of November 22, 1963?A Yes. *Q Can you recall what part of the City you were
in around the middle of the day on November 22?
A Yes, i was on the Seventh Floor of the NewCourthouse Building that was under construction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza.
Q Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza?
A Sir, I can't recall.the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time.
Q Were you in a position where you could see the parade? ••
A Yes, sir.Q Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening'A Yes, I do.Q Would you tell us what happened.
DIETRICH &- PICKE1T, Inc. • c o u r t ri-pok.tf.ks • s u i te 1221 • 333 SAINT CHARLES AVENUE
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16'17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository/
. Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, thi s man was dressed -- he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they, seemed to be fired from an automatic
• rifle and they came --- MR. DYMOMD:
We object to the"witness giving his con- .' elusions on this.
THE COURT:Mr. Carr, do not give your conclusions on
this point.BY MR. GARRISON:
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. • court reporters • suite 1221 • 333 saint chari.es avenue
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Go ahead and tell us what you heard.A I heard three rifle shots fired from a high-
powered rifle MR. DYMOND:
We object to that unless the man is qualified as an expert. I ask the Jury be instructed to disregard that.
THE COURT:It is a question whether or not an ordinary
human being, whether he would know a rifle shot or not. I do hot know --
MR. DYMOND:We don't know this man had rifles since
he was a child, we don't know that he ever had been a hunter, and this man
MR. GARRISON:■ We can clarify that very easily.
BY MR. GARRISON:Q Mr. Carr, have you ever heard rifle fire before-’A I. have.Q Where?A I was a member of the Fifth Ranger Battalion
in World War II. I qualified as an expertwith a bolt-action rifle which is called
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. • court reporters • suite 1221 . 333 saint Charles avenkh
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1819
20
21
22
23
24
25
offensives in Africa, and from there I went to Anzio beachhead and my battalion was annihilated, 13 men left in the Fifth Ranger Battalion,,
Q How many of these places did you hear rifle fire? ♦
A in all of them I heard rifle fire, sir.MR. GARRISON:
We tender the witness.CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. DYMOND:Q Mr. Carr, when you were qualified in the Army
as an expert with a rifle, did that, was that pertaining to marksmanship or the identification of the type of rifle being fired from the noise made?
A Sir, clarify that.Q Your qualification as an expert rifleman in the
Army, was that in marksmanship and the breaking down of'rifles or the identifica-
. ' tion of ri„fle sounds?A I became an expert on the range in the act of
firing a rifle.Q in other words, that would be marksmanship, ..
would it not, sir?
DIETRICH & TICKET!’, Inc. . court kitoktj-rs • suite 1221 . 333 saint Charles avlm.t
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A YesQ Now, these various actions in which your
battalion took place, do you know what type of rifles were being fired at you?
A No, sir, I do not,Q Do you know whether there was more than on<*
type of rifle being fired at you?A Yes, i do know there was more than one type of
rifle being fired at me.Q But you can't name the different types. is
that correct?A Well, I did not see them, and without seeing,
I could not name them.MR. DYMOND:
That's all.THE COURT:
Is the matter submitted?MR. GARRISON: - ; --
'Yes, the State would add that Mr. Carris about as expert in the sounds of gunfire as you could be and still be walking around.
MR. DYMOND:If the Court please, this gentleman may
have been fired at many times, but
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • suite 1221 • 333 saint chaiu.es avenue
123
4
5
6789
10
11
12
13
14
IS16
17
iH19
20
21
22
23
24
25
was from a rifle but not what type rifle.
THE WITNESS:No, sir, I would not say what type of a
rifle, I would not say it was a thirty aught six -- ♦
MR. DYMOND:Objection, there was no question asked.
BY MR. GARRISON: ...q Let's go back to where we were and can you tell
us what you heard?A Yes, a pipefitter and myself were standing on
the Seventh Floor of the — on the outside of the structure of this courthouse, we were looking, as I told before in my statement to the FBI and everyone else --
MR. DYMOND:I object to his previous statements to
the FBI, Your Honor.THE COURT:
Answer the question.BY MR. GARRISON:Q You can go on and tell us what you observed,
tell us v/hat you observed and what y0u - heard.
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. . court nponTtas . sum; 1221 335 SAINT'CHARLES AVlNLi:
123
45
6
7
8
9
10
11
1213
14
15
16
17
18
1920
21
22
23
24
25
A All right. As I stated before, I noticed this fellow in the window, and this gentleman, the pipefitter and myself, he made the statement to --
MR. DYMOND:I object to what the man made a statement
concerning.BY MR. GARRISON:Q You can say what you said.A I thought he was a Secret Agent man or an FBI
...... man. _____ ___ ___ __Q What did the man in the window look like?A He had on a hat, a felt hat, a light hat, he
had on heavy-rimmed glasses, dark, the glasses were heavy-rimmed, and heavy ear pieces on his glasses.
Q Go ahead..A He had on a tie, he had on a light shrrt, a
tan sport coat.Q Now, you say you heard gunfire. Will you tell
. ’ us again what you heard.A Yes, sir. The first I heard, I made the
statement before the objection, I say it was small arms, a pistol --
MR. DYMOND:
DIETH1CH & PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • suite 1221 • jjj saint Charles avenue
12
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
1617
18
19
20
2122
23
24
25
H e h a s n o t b e e n q u a l i f i e d - -
T H E C O U R T :
j u s t s a y w h a t k i n d o f n o i s e y o u h e a r d .
BY M R . G A R R I S O N :
Q W h a t k i n d o f n o i s e d i d y o u h e a r ?
A I h e a r d a s h o t . - T h e r e w a s a p a u s e a n d i m - ♦m e d i a t e l y a f t e r t h a t t h e r e w e r e t h r e e
s h o t s i n s u c c e s s i o n .
Q V 7 e re y o u a b l e t o t e l l f r o m w h e r e t h e f i r s t
s h o t w a s c o m i n g ?
A N o , s i r , n o t t h e f i r s t o n e I c o u l d n o t t e l l
t h e d i r e c t i o n i t c o m e f r o m .
Q W e r e y o u a b l e t o t e l l f r o m w h e r e t h e t h r e e
s h o t s c a m e f r o m w h i c h f o l l o w e d ?
A Y e s , i w a s .
Q W h e r e d i d t h e y c o m e f r o m ?
A T h e y c a m e , f r o m t h e - - f r o m w h e r e I w a s s t a n d i n g
* a t t h e n e w c o u r t h o u s e , t h e y c a m e " f r o r a I n ~
t h i s d i r e c t i o n h e r e , b e h i n d t h i s p i c k e t
f e n c e , a n d o n e k n o c k e d a b u n c h o f g r a s s
u p a l o n g i n t h i s , a r e a h e r e ( i n d i c a t i n g ) ,
t h i s a r e a h e r e i s f l a t , l o o k i n g a t i t
f r o m h e r e , b u t t h e a c t u a l w a y i t i s , i t
i s o n a s l o p e u p t h i s w a y a n d y o u c o u l d
t e l l f r o m t h e w a y i t k n o c k e d i t u p t h a t
DIETRICH & PICKE'IT, Inc. • c o u r t r e p o r te r s • su ite 1:21 • 333 s a in t C harles avenue
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1819
20
2122
23
24
25
the bullet came from this direction (indicating).
Now, when you just touched the ruler to this mockup, what was the area which you were describing as the source of. the three shots, can you describe it a little mcyre precisely?
Yes, there was a picket fence along in this area here, it does not show it in here, and it seems the shots came from this direction, and underneath that slope there were people.
And what happened?The shots came from this direction, from be
hind this picket fence that I do not see here, and there is a slope here, there is a grassy slope down here and there were a lot of people, spectators down here, below on this grassy slope, but when those shots were fired the motorcycle policemen, the
. • Secret Service and what-have-you, all came in this direction, the way the shots came from, some of the people that were sitting there' or standing fell to the ground as if the shots wore coming off of thoso --
DIETRICH & PJCKETT, Inc. • court reporters • suite 1221 • 333 saint chari.es aveccue
A
QA
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. DYMOND:I object to his conclusion. Your Honor.
THE WITNESS:It is not a conclusion. Your Honor, I saw
it.MR. DYMOND: *»
I ask the witness be instructed to wait for the court's ruling.
THE COURT: • 'I overrule the objection.
MR. DYMOND:To which ruling Counsel objects and re
serves a bill of exception on the conclusions of the witness. I will make the Defense objection, all the questions propounded to this witness, the entire record and the Court's ruling', parts of the bill.
ETMR. GARRISON:Q Now, of those shots, which of the three shots
did you hear coming from that area you have just pointed out by the picket fence on the knoll?
A The three shots, the last three shots came from this area.
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. • court reporters • suite 1221 • 555 saint Charles avow s
12
3
4
5
6
78
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Did the three shots seem spread apart in time or very close in time?
A No, sir, they were fired from a semi-automatic or either —
MR. DYMOND:I object to this. ♦
THE COURT:Just tell us the sequence, Mr. Carr.
BY MR. GARRISON: ....Q You can tell us whether they sounded close
or separate.A Yes, they were very close together.Q If you were to say with your voice "BOOM"
three times, could you give us the approximate separation as you recall it?
A Well, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM, just in that order.Q All right. Now, I am not going into the whole
thing there., but just so that we can see where the spot was on the photomap, now, "S-34, " Mr. Carr, that you are looking atnow, an aerial photograph of the scene --
A Yes.Q -- could you orient yourself, can you identify
everything by looking at the area photograph?
D I E T R I C H & P I C K l i T , I n c . • COURT REP0P.T1.RS • SUITE ] 221 . 353 SAINT CHARLES AVENUE
123
4
567
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A Yes.Q Can you show us the area from which you heard
the three shots coming on the area photograph?
A The three shots came from in this direction right here (indicating). ♦
Q Can you recognize the cement arcade in the area photograph?
A Yes.Q Now, are you able to recall from which ends
of the cement arcade the three shots came from, was it from the end towards the Depository or the end towards the overpass?
A At the end towards the overpass, right here.MR. GARRISON:
Let the record show that Mr. Carr justindicated, would you point your ruler up there, -- let the record show Mr. Carr is indicating an area on the
•' grassy knoll in the vicinity of thepicket fence.
THE COURT:Let it be noted in the record.
BY MR. GARRISON:
DIETRICH Sc PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • suite 1221 . jjj saint Charles avenue
12
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
A
Q
AQAQ
A
Q
A
Q
A
Now, after the shots, did you notice any movement of any kind --
Yes, I did.-- as unusual, that was unusual?Yes, I did.Would you tell us what you observed. «Should i point it out, sir?Yes.At this point right here,,at this School Book
Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Which way was the station wagon facing?It was parked on the wrong side of the street,
next to the School Book Depository heading north.
North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters . suite 1221 • 33} saint Charles avenue
123
4
5
6789
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from t he driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his— - shoulder as if he was being -followed*
Q Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give . ' this information to any law enforcement
agencies?■A Yes, I did.Q Did anyone tell you not to say anything about
this?
DIETKICH & P lC k t r i , Inc. • court reporters . suite 1221 • 335 saint ciiarj.es avenue
123
4
5
67
89
10111213
14
15
16
17
.1819
20212223
24
25
DYMOND:A Yes.
MR.I object to what anyone told him. Your
Honor, on the grounds it's hearsay.THE COURT:
A moment ago you asked Mrs. Parker ifanybody threatened her. is it your
question, Mr. Garrison, whether or not Mr. Carr was threatened by someone? Is your question to the witness a question of whether or not anyone threatened Mr. Carr?
MR. GARRISON:I will rephrase it.
BY MR. GARRISON:Q Did anyone threaten you?
MR. DYMOND:At this time we object to the Court's
suggesting questions to Counsel for the State. The suggested question is completely different from the question previously propounded by the State. This is not the function of a Trial Judge in any trial.
MR. GARRISON:
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. • court reporters . suite 1221 • 333 saint Charles avexi e
1
23
4
5
6
7
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
2122
23
24
25
May it please the court, I will phrase my own questions on this.
BY MR. GARRISON:Q Mr. carr, did you talk to any FBI agents about
this incident?A Yes, I did. *• 'Q Did they tell you to forget about it?
MR. DYMOND:I object to that as hearsay.
BY MR. GARRISON:Q Were you threatened in any way --
THE COURT:I sustain the objection. You cannot tell
us the words used by someone who spoke to you because of hearsay; however, you can state that you had
• conversations with them and what did you do as a result of the conversation, I will permit that.
BY MR. GARRISON:Q a s 'the result of the conversations with the
Federal Bureau of investigation, what did you do?
A I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth.'Q Were you called to testify before the Warren
DIE I RICH Sc PICKETT, Inc. . court khrorthcs • suite 1221 • 333 saint chartes avenue
1• 2
3
4
5
6
7
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16“
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Commission?A No, sir.
MR. GARRISON:I tender the witness.
RECROSS-EXAMINATIONBY MR. DYMOND: .Q When did you first notice that President
Kennedy had been shot?A About an hour and 15 minutes after it happened,
sir.Q Is it your testimony that you did not realize
that anything had gone wrong in the Presidential motorcade?
A I realized something had gone wrong but I did not know what.
Q Did you realize that anyone had been shot?A No, sir, .1 did not.Q Until an hour and 15 minutes after it happened,
is that your testimony?A Yes.Q I. see. Now, wasn't it your testimony that you
heard what you thought were gunshot --A Yes.Q -- noises?A Yes, I did not think it was gunshots, I knew
DItTRICIl & PICKET!', Inc. • COURT REPORTERS • SUITE 1221 • 333 SAINT CHARLES AVENUE
1
23
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16‘
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
it was gunshots.Q I see. Didn't you also testify that you saw
people running up to- the grassy knoll area?A I did.Q Did you draw any conclusions from that?A Your Honor, you asked me not to have any con
clusions a while ago, did you not?THE COURT:
You can answer this question.THE WITNESS: ‘ -
I have conclusions, yes, I did.BY MR. DYMOND:Q Did you conclude that anybody had been shot?A I concluded someone had been shot or shot at,
yes.Q Did you detect any commotion or unusual activi
ties- in the vicinity of the Presidential vehicle?
A I detected the vehicles gathering’ speed and moving on, yes, I did.
Q Did you attach any importance to that or think it was unusual?
A i thought it was very unusual, yes.Q Now, when did you see the Presidential vehicle
gathering speed in relation to the gun-
DIETI1ICH & PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • suite 1221 . 333 saint charles avenue
12
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
s h o t s ?
A I t w a s s h o r t l y a f t e r ,
Q W o u l d I b e f a i r i n s a y i n g i t w a s i m m e d i a t e l y
a f t e r t h e g u n s h o t s ?
A I w o u l d s a y t h e r e w a s a p a u s e a n d i t l o o k e d
l i k e , i t l o o k e d l i k e s o m e b o d y t r y i n g i*o
g e t h o m e f r o m w h e r e I w a s a t .
Q B y c l a p p i n g y o u r h a n d s , f i r s t i n d i c a t i n g t h e
l a s t g u n s h o t , a n d t h e n t h e t i m e t h a t y o u
s a w t h e u n u s u a l a c t i v i t y a r o u n d t h e
P r e s i d e n t i a l v e h i c l e , c l a p p i n g t h e m a g a i n ,
s o a s t o s h o w u s t h e s p a c e o f t i m e , w o u l d
y o u p l e a s e d o t h a t , s i r .
A T h a t h a s b e e n f i v e y e a r s a g o , a n d i t s e e m e d
l i k e m i n u t e s , w h i c h i t w a s o n l y s e c o n d s .
Q I n o t h e r w o r d s , i t ' s y o u r t e s t i m o n y n o w t h a t
i t w a s o n l y s e c o n d s b e t w e e n t h e l a s t s h o t
a n d y o u r s e e i n g c o m m o t i o n a n d u f t l f s u a l
a c t i v i t y a r o u n d t h e P r e s i d e n t i a l v e h i c l e .
I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A W - e l l , n o w , I a i n ' t s a i d n o t h i n g a b o u t s e e i n g
c o m m o t i o n a r o u n d t h e P r e s i d e n t i a l v e h i c l e ,
w h a t t y p e o f c o m m o t i o n I n o t i c e d m o s t l y
w a s p e o p l e r u n n i n g t o t h e a r e a t h a t I -
d e s c r i b e d , t h i s a r e a r i g h t h e r e , s i r .
DIETRICH & PICKE'JT, Inc. • c o u r t r e p o r te r s • sum: 1221 • 3J5 SAINT CHARLES AVENUE
123
4
5
67
89
1011
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q That happened right after the shots were fired?
A Yes, that happened immediately.Q Would you say that happened before or after
you saw the Presidential vehicle accelerate.and start to go faster? ^
A That happened before.Q All right. After seeing the people run up
the grassy knoll, which happened right after you heard the shots, right after that you saw --
MR. ALCOCK:That is not what he said, that is not his
testimony.(Whereupon, the testimony pertinent to this point was read by the Reporter,)
BY MR. DYMOND: -Q Right after that you saw the Presidential
vehicle accelerate. Is that correct?A Yes.Q All right. Nov;, when you saw the Presidential
vehicle accelerate, did that attract your attention?
A No, sir, not so much as I turned and looked
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • sum-1231 • m saint Charles avfnue
1
23
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
back, as I told you before, I saw these people come out from behind the School Book Depository and I am going to try to make’this clear to you so where you can understand it, from where I was at I could not tell, whether they came out this side entrance here, there is a side entrance to the School Book Depository, or whether they came from behind it, but they came either from the side entrance or they came from behind it, and got into this station wagon.
Q Now, how about the rest of the motorcade, didit accelerate along with the Presidential r
A . The crowd crowded in so fast until I could not tell anything about the rest of the motorcade or nothing else, there was a lot of commotion there from then on.
Q Vlas there a great deal of traffic'on Stemmons Freeway at that time?
A Stemmons Freeway is oh up here.Q I am talking about Elm Street going -- A You said Stemmons Freeway, Elm Street is here,
sir. No, sir, there was not much traffic on Elm Street.
DlF.TniCll Sc PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • suite 1221 • 333 saint chari.k ayi mt
123
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16'
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Not much traffic?A Elm Street had been blocked off for the motor
cade.Q About how; many automobiles v/ere in the motor
cade?A I don't know. ^
• *Q Would you say plenty or just one or two?A Well, at the time this happened, I saw three.Q You only saw three vehicles, three automobiles
in the Presidential motorcade. Is that correct?
A At the time it happened I had only seen three, part of them were on back, had not got to that point yet.
Q Did you ever see any more than these three?A Sir, i saw no more because I explained to you
that the commotion was so great that every - body stopped there, there were a lot of people on the streets, on both sides, there were people up here, spectators,
. ' there were people lined everywhere along that route, all over there.
Q Mr. Carr, weren't you interested in looking at this commotion and trying to see what was causing it?
DIh FRICII & PICJKETT, Inc. • court reporters • suite 1221 • 3}} saint Charles avenue
12
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A was I interested in knowing what was causingit?
Q That is correct. .A I would like to have known, but I could not
have got through the crowd to find out if I had to. ♦
Q You had a pretty good spot from which to look, didn't you?
A Yes. .Q V7ere you looking to try to' see what caused it?A Well, I had no idea what had went on, sir.Q I say were you looking to try to see what went
on, what caused it?A To see what caused the commotion?Q That's right.A No, sir, not to see what caused it, I was
looking to see what was going on.Q You were looking v>here, to see what was going
on?A I was looking to see why all of the commotion
• " down here and why these people were runnincQ And at the same time you were looking up toward:
the Texas Book Depository seeing three men come out from behind it. Is that right?
A Do you see these dots on this —
D1F.TTUCH 8c PICKE'I'T, Inc. • court reporters • suite 1221 • 333 saint chari.es avenue
1
23
4
5
67
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16’
17
IS19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q would you answer my question, and then explain/ please, sir. I say would you answer the question and then explain.
A Yes, I will answer your question, repeat it, please.
THE COURT: ♦Mr. carr, when a question is put to you,
you can answer it yes or no, but you have a right to,explain'your answer so you cannot be cut off, so if you •wish to explain the answer, you are permitted by law to do so.
(Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.)
A Yes, that's right.BY MR. DYMOND:q And also at the same time you were watching
the man whom you say you had seen on the Fifth Floor of the Book Depository walk on Houston Street towards Main. is that right?
A Yes, and I have -- may I explain that?Q Yes.
THE COURT:You may explain.
DIETRICIl & PICKETT, Inc. • c o m w-rora-ns • suite 1221 . 353 saint Charles avenue
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A The same man. that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street.
BY MR. DYMOND:Q And you were watching that procedure at the
same time that you were watching what was going on in the grassy knoll area?
A No, sir.Q And what was going on around the Presidential
vehicle and in the motorcade, right?A No, sir, I was watching that man at that time,
and I watched him until I could see him no longer, but that man acted as if he was in a hurry'and someone was following him, and I would know that man if I ever sav; him again.
Q And right before the three successive shotsyou sav; a bullet hit in the middle of Dealey Plaza, is that correct?
A Repeat that, please.Q Right before hearing the three successive shots
DIE!HIGH 8: PICKETT, Inc. • couxt hei'ORTErs • suite nai . m sa in t Charles avenue
12
3
4
5
6
7
89
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
2324
25
y o u s a w a b u l l e t h i t i n t h e m i d d l e o f
D e a l e y P l a z a , r i g h t ? ........................
A N o , s i r , u p o n h e a r i n g t h e t h r e e s u c c e s s i v e
s h o t s , s i r , I s a w o n e , o n e o f t h o s e t h r e e
h i t i n D e a l e y P l a z a i n t h e g r a s s .
Q I s e e . D i d y o u e v e r g o a n d l o o k f o r t h e h o ^ L e
w h e r e i t h i t ?
A N o , s i r , I h a v e n o t .
Q D i d y o u e v e r t r y t o r e c o v e r t h e p e l l e t ?
A N o , s i r , I h a v e n o t .
Q N o w , i s i t y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h a t t h e t h r e e , t h a t
i s , t h e g r o u p o f t h e s e t h r e e s h o t s w e r e
e q u a l l y s p a c e d , t h a t i s , t h e s p a c e o f
t i m e b e t w e e n t h e f i r s t a n d s e c o n d w a s
j u s t a b o u t t h e s a m e a s t h a t b e t w e e n t h e
s e c o n d a n d t h i r d ?
A T h e t h r e e s h o t s w e r e c o n s e c u t i v e l y .
Q I t a k e i t t h e n t h a t y o u w o u l d d e n y t h a t t h e r e
w a s o n e s h o t a n d t h e n a r e l a t i v e l y l o n g
p e r i o d a n d t h e n t w o f a s t s h o t s . i s t h a t
' ■ c o r r e c t ?
A Y e s , I s u r e w o u l d .
Q I t a k e i t - - g o a h e a d , s i r .
A I a m s o r r y , s i r , g o a h e a d . I s a i d I h e a r d o n e
s h o t , t h e r e w a s a p a u s e a n d t h e n I h e a r d
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. . c o u r t r e p o r t e r s • su ite 1221 • 333 s a in t C harles avenu e
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
three consecutive shotsQ I take it then that you would also deny that
of those three successive shots, there were' two rapid ones and then a relatively long period and then a third one. is that right?
A Yes, I would.MR. DYMOND:
That's all, sir.FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:Q Just one more question, Mr. Carr. Would you
just take your -- would you just take your time and in your own words describe with reference to the photomap the direction of that shot which you observed furrowing :on through the grass, from what area to what area, could you describe that, from what point to what point?
A The shot was fired from somewhere in here.Q Just a minute, sir. This is going to be
written down, what do you mean by "in here," from somewhere to where?
A From this direction in here that shot was fi red.
DIETRICH & PICKETT, Inc. • court rd'Orters • suite 1221 . 333 sa in t Charles avenue
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
41
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q You are indicating, to begin with, the grassy knoll area by the picket fence. is that right?
A Yes, sir,' that is the first thing thatattracted my attention as I explained to you before i *
Q But the direction would have been from there to where?
A ' To in this vicinity right here (indicating).Q Well, if you carry the line down, would you
--- -identify some building or something onthe map so that v/e will know precisely what you mean?
A Yes, I will say the Criminal Courts Building right here (indicating).
Q If the shot would have continued, you mean to say --
- M R . DYTiOND :
I object to leading the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. -GARRISON:Q I will rephrase the question. If the shot
continued --A If the shot had not hit the grass, it would
hit the Criminal Courts Building, sir.
had
h a v e
DIETRICII & PICKETT, Inc. • coltt.t reporters . suite 1221 • 333 sain t Charles avenue
1
2
34
56
7
8
9
10
11
12.
13
14
15
16
17
IS
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. GARRISON:
That's all I have.FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. DYMONDCQ Just a couple of questions. Mr. Carr, is it
your testimony that you saw this bullet furrowing through the grass?
A I saw the grass come up.Q You saw the grass come up?A Yes.Q And from that you are telling us from what
direction the shot came and where it would have gone if it would have kept on going. Is that right?
A Yes.MR. DYMOND:
That's all.THE COURT: ■
Is Mr. Carr released from the obligations of his subpoena?
MR. ALCOCK:Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT:You are excused as a witness.
THE V7ITNESS :
DIETRICH Sc PICKETT, Inc. . c o u r t re p o r te r s • sum; 1 2 2 1 • 3 3 3 s a in t chari.fs avf..\t:!-:
12
3
45
6
78
9
10
11
12.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
2122
23
24
25
Thank you. Judge.THE COURT:
Let everybody have a seat. Sheriff.Now, you see, it is about one minute to
12:00. We are going to recess for lunch. ♦
Let everybody have a seat.Gentlemen of the Jury, as I have so many
times, I must admonish you and■instruct you not to discuss the case with one another or anyone else.It is very, very important that you adhere to my instructions.
With those instructions, I will turn you over to the Sheriffs, and we will be in recess for lunch.
You are released under your same bond,Mr. Shaw.
(Whereupon, a luncheon recess was taken.)
DIETRICH S: PICKETT, Inc. . court reporters • suite 1221 • 333 saint charj.es avenue
C E R T I F I C A T E
| I, the undersigned, a Deputy Official CourtReporter in and for the State of Louisiana, authorizediand empowered by law to administer oaths and'to take the depositions of witnesses under L.R.S. 13:961.1, as amended, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing deposition is true and correct as taken by me in the above-entitled and numbered cause (s).
I further certify that I am not of counselnor related to any of the parties to this cause or in anywise interested in the event thereof.
t*
DEPUTY OFFICIAL. COURT REPORTER STATE OF LOUISIANA