724 [ASSE-MBLY.]

1legieLative Ats9ernbig.Tuesday, 22nd September, 1936.

Atessage, State Government Insurance OMeie BillQuestions: isabiitites grant reduction ; as to State

delit, as to Claremont trolley Sims serviceCountry water supplies, Barballn reservoIr _Railway Sawmill. use of tractors ........ ...

Bills : Land Act Amendment, IcR.......... ...Industrial Arbitration Act Amendnent, ine.Factories and Shops Act Amendment, IcE.Rural Relief Fund Act Acmendment. IRe.State Tr'asport Co-ordlualion Act Amecndmnent,

No. 2, Isl......... ....One-Big Bel11 Railway, 2R... ..Petroleucm. Conm.............Fearling Crews Accident Assucrance Fund, 2Re.Tenants, Purchasers and Mortgagors' Belief Act

Amendment, 219., Corn., report ..Trade DescriptIons and False Adverttsements,

Corn..................... ....Frenutl,, Literary Ins8titUt: _lortgagc, 2k,

PAGE724

724724724

724724724724

724725720730

733

743749

The SPE AKCER took the Chair at 4.30liam.. andi read prayers.

BILL-STATE GOVERNMENTINSURANCE OFFICE.

Message.

Message fronm the Licut.-Governor receivedanl read recommending appropriation forthe purposes of the Bill.

QUESTIONS (2)-DSBL ISGRANT REDUCTION.

As to State Deficit.

Mr. NOR11TH ask~ed lie I rcncivr : Wran varranreiitit nid2 at th- last nieting ct IlleLoan Council whereby, if our disabilitiesgrant werle i-educed below last year's artou at,the State Treasurer conld incur a deficitpro rota?

The DEPUTY PREMXIER replied: It isnot the practice of the Loan Council to makeany such arrangement. A deficit must befinanced from the total amount of loanmioney mnade available.

As to Claremont Trolley line Service.

'Mr. NORTH asked the 'Minister for Rail-ways: 1, Does the prospect of a redueeddisabilities grant affect the Government's in-tention to instal trolley buses on the Clare-mont route?- 2, When are the trolley busesniow onl order expected to be in service?

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS re-plied: 1, Ne. 2, About the middle of next

QUESTION-COUNTRY WATERSUPPLIES.

Rarbalin. Reservoir.

Mr. 'WARNER asked the Minister fo :Water Sup plies: 1, Does be intend to linkuip the Barbalin rock catebment reservoirwith the main Goldfields seheme 2, If so,is it intended to complete the connectionbefore the end of 1936? .3, If not, whatAi'anwenients ii he made to avoid a ;er;-Otis water shortage througrhout the areas sup-

ldied hy Barbalin reservoir, and t1ho1e AtWaddouring and K-nunagin?

The MINISTER FOR WATER SUP-PLIE S replied: 1, Yes. 2. It is regrettedthat the connection caiinot lie completed be-fore lice end of 1936, hut the work w.ill beexpedited. .3, Answered Icy No. 1.

QUESTION-RAILWAY SAWMILL.

Use of Tracetors.

Miss HOILrAN asked the 'Minister forRailways: 1, Is it a fact that tractors are tobe iiitroducaed in the bush at No. 2 RailwayMXill, DwcIlingnp)? 9, If so, when? 3, iftractors arc to be introduced, will tendersbe calledl 4, Is it intended to allow everyteams4ter at present, in the bush an oppor-tunity to tender? 65, if not, why not? 6, Iftoiidcrs are not to be called, who is suppix-mrz liii tractors?

'flip MI1NISTER FOR RAILWAYS re-plied: 1 and 2, The matter is under con-sideration. 3, Yes. 4, Yes. 5, See answerto No. 4. 6, See answer to No- 3.

BILLS (6)-FIRST READING.

1, Land Act Amendment.Introduced by the Minisier for Lands.

2, Industrial Arbitration Act Amendment.

.3, Factories and Shops Act Amendment,

Introduced h3 the Minister for Employ-ment.

4, Rural Relief Fund Act Amendment.Introduced by Mr. Watts.

5, State Transport Go-ordination ActAmendment (No. 2).

Introduced by Mr. Sampson.

[22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.] 725

BILL-CUE-BIG BELL RAILWAY.

.Sc~ond Reading.

THE MINISTER FOP. MINES (11on. S.W. Mu~i-ann)[4.39] in moving theseeond 'c-ad(itpr sid: I realise that it is notnccesstiiv for'rile to give many reasons forthle iritrodt,-tioir of the BillI. Most membersas-c tiware of the fact that the Gover-tnent a,roli.A leral~c im iin wo agreed, tinder certaino-ondi ti ors, that a rail way should bie cotn-striietecl front Cute to the Big Bell M1ine.WIhile- I was iii Engtigard I was interviewedl.v 1l r. (I est, thle chief rep~resenltative of theAilnerwcan Smelting atrd Refining Co. (I1nC.),whoa at that time, through the Premier G oldAline., another cuipa y of which lire is theehainin Of directors, %vas interested in theBig Bell M\ine. ]ie put to ine the questionwhether, it the comnyi exercised their op-

tio ad wvere pr1epareCd to develop the BigBell, the G overnmoent would ag-ree to Pilt ina spur railiway - I told him that- all I eouldsay vvasi that if lie made the app)lijeation, Ibelieved it would receive sympathetic consid-eration. I-He immrnediately wviredc to the gen-eral manager for the company in Australia-the 2enerial mannager of thle big mnines inOtuecrslandc-and aiso to his representativehere. Afr. Dale P itt. with the r-esult that Myr.Foster anrd \fr. P itt interviewed thle thenlPremier arid put upv their ease for the con-strmuttion of the, line. Thlen negoitiations pro-ceedeci. The company had not exercised theiroption at the timie, bat were simply doing de-velopmnt work. After iy r-etunrn to Aus-tralia, tlrey again ip1 )roaehied the then Pre-mirer arid asked whether the Governmentwoutld ag.ree to construct the line. At thattime they had clone a considerable amount ofdeveloprinent work on the Big Bell. I in-structed the Stale Mtiningr Engineer, -,\r. R.C. Wilson, to check the sampling that hadbeen done by the company at the Big- Bell.At this stage it might be well to readportion Of -.\r. Wilson's report on the samp-ling of the muine. For the information ofmnimers I maly state thnt the whole of theState Mlining Engineer's report is incorpor-atted in [lie report of the Department ofMlines talbled in this House. The first refer-ereace is as follows:-

in addition to these bulk samples, the driveswvere also sampled by grooves across the backat 10 feet intervals, and the cross-cuts werealso sampled again by grooves cut along [t,,!sides, using a sall nnehine (popper) to cuttite grooves.

The SiUrlphng Of these drives and vioss-curtsmjat be said to have been most ca refutl an~dthorough. Nevertheless, for all own satisfac-tion, I did at certain amount of check samoplingras set out hereunder. In order to be it' q post-tion to coifirVU' thle ]nine samflplinig and assay-ing, 1 decidied to take a. number of sampleswhich had also been taken by the comnpany andto compare our results. I accordingly' saripledone side of each of tile cross-Cuts ait the 2.flftlevel ii. 5f t. sections, auid also tire backof that level at the cross cuts.

Onl the assay plan accompanying this report,the results as received from the GovernrnentMineralogist andI Analyst tire placeed in oneColu mn, and t he aine nc rsilts taken from tbe &assa- plan arei placed iii a nothe r c olui amlolng-silo themn. 'The result is lutist remarkable. lot-dividunal samples, as is usual in mnine samplinig.show a considerable va riation, hut the averageValue of thre 166 samples taken by mnyself w:'s3.517 dwts. per tort, whereas the average value(of the eorresloiding mrine sanmples wa's2 ;.50Sdirts, per tori, a di fference of only .0093 dwt.This agreement was muncl closer thiai wye ex-pected to get.

As a result, I have considerable confider-cein accepting as correct tile balance of the stara-linig carried out by tire company, anil I fel-Ithat tire results obtained by thenm givt its atsaccurate an estimate of the average valurc oftie ore as it is possible to obtain at tlie pre-se-nt timii.

Ewish also to quote the State M3irrirr En-met-cvrs conelusiorns, as follows:-

Thle width and value of the ore ljo; atsd isclosed by, thle present workings and kore-hlbs surggest that Mr. Plitt's estiate of two-a nil -a -half million tons of ore above tire lihUfeet level will he realised, and thlat three umii-lion toins ma;- reasonably be expected. Tlre:rssay results obtained, lad the treatment ex-perinrienits carried out at the School of Mlines atKalgoorlie, indicate that the recoiverable valuewill he .3 dwts. per tori. Mr. Pitt anticipatesa slightly better value than tlis-perliaps 1,fdwvt. higlre-but after a careful revision ofthe assayIis I do not consider it safe tro assumeany, higher figure. Bly mining and treating,30,1000 tons per monutr of ore of tbmis grade byniodlern mnethrods tinder good economical man-agemnent a prot of 10s, per ton may h e madewhile gold is worthr £3. per ounce. This israther a na rrowv margin when an iitin! out -lay of £400,000 to £430.000 has to be madeand a furtlier additional expenditure if thecapacity of thle plant it, to lie increased, :rodwhen it is aloso bornle in ind that gold mayfall in price loelow this figure. fIn elon g tina decisionr in regard to the railway, it shouldbe remembered that the future of gold miningwill depend largely on the successful worlci,of large low-grarle propositions of this kind.It is interesting to note that the plant is tobe designed for tile tonnage of 30,000 p-ermonth, which is the saime tonnage ats the plantat tire Wiltina Gold Mlines was originally de-signed to treat. in addition to actually em-playing about 5(10 men onl the nmine, a newv

[ASSEMBLY.]

ming townshiip wvill bie started, and the outputof the State mayi be expected to be increasedannlually by, about 54,000 fine ounces of goldworth E432,1100t with gold ait £8 per ounce. Mycon sidered opinion is that the benefit to ticState of getting this mine operating no theproposed scale is such as to warrant t ile cail-sit uttionl if th is spur linle.Anmd there i- inare thin that. This question,loiiiH 4nt 'inco the const ruetionl of a new spurlint., wa, submitted to the State Transport14oard fcoreonside,-ation, heeause under the

State TrIl asport Co-ordinatioi Act, beforebuilding a ne tit-n i lwav, tine Government imust(ilsult tiat hod, wimieh, is to uise its ownjuciinit am tot whel lie the trainsport shouldhe 1) v rail ill- 1,v road. I laie here the fullreplt of tht' bioarid, whlich I shall laly Oil thle'f'ill)](- so that hon. nuenubers (,tit perv1sC it forthot ise I 's. I hav e, ho wt "4. I, mlaide at few ex-trincts froit tine- report, andi these 1 shallq ue. rJ11,li asn. follows:

The board, believes that the full length Ofline, inlcluldinlg tine I],miles withinl the booii-dair v of the Big hell leoses, could he constructedit a cost nt exceetd intg £60,000, ijel onina thevaltue of tile ri ls and sleepers wh oie i avealready been jpurehased by the 0Governmnt'fine boinrd necessanil s gave co nsideratioi, tothle Possibility Of road instead of raiil trans-a, t. Time estinmate snubmit ted by the Corni nts-

sinner of '%aoin Roads fait the tonstruactioin ofa lnituliiiiiouls rolad (ilistasice 18 iniles4 is£:47,500. The bota it is of the opinion thnat inall the eircauiaves the Goveriiineitt is just-

ie in Inor uevnl i g withI thle econistru-c ti on of the,pro pose, rin: I a t lin e, and6 tliat tlie work shiouildlie proceed ed wvith expeditiously, andl if J)(s-SileI coin p14ctl ieV re'fk lt e mahiniery, oi.arrivets.

lion. C. (;. Lathai: Where (10 the niein-bers of the board obta in the- qualificationsenabling them to state that the cost VAilllie £60,000 ? Is one of them a qualifiednin?

The MINISTUER 100I I MS: TfleJ)oard callerd evidence fromt the Hail wa vIDepartiuen ti and required thle presence 6 fthe railiwaY enginleers to give thle i afornia-tion.

lon. C. G. Lathani : In other words, it i~sthe Railway Departmient's report.

The -MINISTER FOR MINES: Partlyvthe Railway Depart ment's report, a imIpartly the '%linues fepartiuent's report.

Hon. C. G. Lathamin: No. It is-Mfr. SPEAKER : Order!The MINISNTER FOR 'MINES : The hon.

membleir (alln ee the wchole of the reportand all the evidence obtnained Iv the( ba'i.

Mr. Sliejuan : ITt nt a lot of macehi ii rvnlrepdy onnp there?

The MINISTER FOR 'MINES: Onlysome rve lighit inwehiaerv. I ain also lav-lag on the Table a letter dated tile 29thJuly, 1936, from 'Mr. Pitt in reply to in-quiries made by thle Transport Board-

Thle Chairman, Transport hioard, Old liar-lrtks, Perth. Dlear Sir, Tlnis will acknowledgereceipt of your telegrami of 27th July, as fol-low:-' When conmvenlienlt f or you meet Trains-lort Board, Perth, reference propose(i ra ilwav'to ininc ? Nevessary board r'eport to Pa rim-int. * Upon receipt of your wire we repnlietdis follows:-'' Your wire 2 7th. Could vout ('allin( Ot til pone 28 th to give ilie nio a' detil lines-tions to lie diseussedH T din ext reinel * busyjust now tad find it diffioult get away fromiiiW. We appreciate talking to you onl phonlebefore any- finad arrangenient.

I appwe hue your having called ite oni thephlonie yesterday mioning ill response to theabhive wire, and prsn~amt to our- coinversatioin

it tat nim' I leg to submit to youl the follow-ing inforimtion concerning the activities ait theBig Bell at the piresnt tinie.

Fromt 19:13 until tlne end of 1985 tile PremnierGld Miin ug ('onipoaii invyes ti ganted aroid closel)sai iiiled by iaionrld tIilling an ii vi(e rgr ouuicdrvork the deposit ot Big Bell. As a iesult oftonr thorough saumpling of this property we ex-ercised our opition to acqire the same. Thiswas -lne is oif Ian uary 1st, 1936. Sihaul-tanueouslv with our exercise of option the Goy-erimitit signed :ii agreemient with its that arailway woulid lie built from Cue to tile BigBell unmie. TIn this agreemient the Premnier GoldMiiing Comiipany, undertook, first, to oiganisetin Austranliani conmpariv. with it paid-up capitaloif not less thanl £400,000; secoiid. to forthiwitherect a miill for liandliiig the ore from the BigBell in mu- wvithi a i-ated c apan'ity of not lessthanii 25,11 itlons pet init tn thirdl, to a ek now-ir-dgc' OINViseyt indebted to the Gloverm'ument inithe penal sul of £50,000 if we failed to carryonut thle :isove t no undertakiiigs.

lini cdiaitel, a ft en tine si ginig of tliis formala g receuit we oniiii cii cccet i el 'v to ena r r, ~Outci-hi. fut her d evel opmeinit inad O pei n g il oftit( ltolltY nuinl to olosign aund eteet thle iuiillaid ininiiig planit which vitl trc'm bet a inimumuof' 25,0110 tons puer Piontn.

Earley in Alanreh :it-tiv- 'vo k was, vaniin enceilon tle site. anil Inas been vi gorousl ,v ecarrierd oilsince thtit tilmim, The crews have heeii increaisedats 'ye prti 6d a c on niodantion to take care ofthmu, until at thle prtesenit tiime we hnave IS3rio" emnployed. We coiitemiplate inucrneasingthis forice miatoriatlly as atconm no dat ions for mei nflu' pi'midol aind nuaterial call le delivered forcarrying out the work.

'ri- work nit . ii, hatnd rnsists of (lev Ihil-

iii. mit tindc g rouit, (I wir Ii is Op einig uip tile Ore1I%1 andn cniipletiiig the necessaryv blhtgi-

ways to an new slnaft icing sunik fromn thme str.fact,. This shnaft is row in course of sinking,mid is son a 80 feet coiplet'd.

Vanrionus b uildiings, sun-li as wrarehouse, office.aiil liv'ing quarters tif various tpsfir raffand iunjtn tes, along wiith Insui tabIle inncss Itou te.re well :ii inm their nonstriilctiOa. FoiUnili-

r22 SEPTEMBIER, 13.

tions for miachinie shops, powver house, and tutulbuildings are under construction now, and eon-Crete foundations are being laid for several ofthese buildings.

In short, a very vigorous prograninle tendingtowards getting the properly in eondition forinstallation of machinery whent tile same1 isavaiLabie front the manufacturers is being car-tied out and active developmenut work under-ground is also in progress.

For your information the total expenditureto date us shown by our operatinig books equaI~ls£104,506 Os. 5d. Of this amiount £:uqs,lI~9d. has beea spenit since 1st Janiuary, 1! 13u.The average expenditure for the past twomnonths has b~een £11,400.

All the equipment and strurtural imteritldfor this pliant has now been ordered, maid dle-livery of the first of this is now being received.The heavier inaclilnery and supplies are not ex-pecled until the firsat part of December, whenwe expect the railway to be completed.

We trust that the above information mneetswith your requirement. If there is inly al1di-tionll detailed information you desire T will begladl to furnish samne for vou.

Yours truly,

(Sgd.) D. L. PITT,General 'Manager Big Bell 3Miies, Ltd.

This small Bill is a mieasure of four clauisesof which three are purcl-v preliminary,being the usual Clauses 1, 2, and 3J of avers'railway Bill introduced. Clause 4 is themain provision, as it ratifies thle agreement,wh-ieh is Contained in the Schedule to theBill. I have read out -Mr. Pitt's letter be-cauise at the first onset it was the PremierGold Mine through which the negotiationswere conducted. Later the negotiationswere carried on and completed wvith flte,American Smelting & Refining Comparny,Incorporated. I make that explanation be-cause the bond had to he signed by somecompany. The American Smelting & Re-fining Company is the premier of the fourcompanies that Control the Big Bell mine.Let mc say that the public rio not ]told any,%shares in the Bi~r iJll mine. No share-ihave been advertised, none will be adver-tised. anti none will he issued to the pub-lie. The four companies in question nrptaking the total responsibility of provid-ing the capital for the Big Bell mine. Thdoyare not asking th-i public to subscribe apenny piece. The four companies are find-ing the -whole lot. If the venture is asuccess, they will of course reap the hene-fit: if it fails, they will lose the C400,000-which they have already posted.

Mr. Sleenmn: And the Government willlose their expenditure on the line.

The MI1NISTER{ FOIL 21INES: Not alto'-gether. I will explain that later. The tourcolipanies, concerned are the AlniericalllSmltn & Retiiug Company. Incorpor-ated, the 1Premier Gold M1ies Limited. thuMining Trust 1,iuiiteil and the Terra -NovaProprietary L imi ted. We wan ted to eniter'into negotiations for some security to ilheState that if the line ;va, built, therewould hie miore than a itere- says-so by the,comflpanyi that they were p~repareCd to t*1l 'ouat their obligations-. 'To get that morethan say-so, the Government sugg, ested albondl of £50,000, Australian curirency' , lieposted with the TreasuryN, as a guarantee:that the companies would carry out theirobligations. The bond was neg-otiated withthe American Smlelting & Refining Comn-pany alone, as. the premier company con-corned.

Hon. C. G1. Larhi: Thes- are backinz thebond ?

The MINLSTER FOR MI1NES: Yes.Hon. C. G. ILalhamn : And that is th~e only

back-ing you have got?The MINISTER FOB MI11NES: 77iat is

all. I consider that the Solicitor Generalhas miade a pretty good job) of obtaining thatbond. Clause 4 of (lie measure ratifie, the,agreemient between thle parties. With regrard?to the agreement, it i.s necessary to say thatthere was conisiderable legal riegotiatica priorto its dra fting and complletion. The mrainprovsions or thle agreenft arc that at out-pniy is to be formed locally wvith -t sharecapital of miot less than £400,000, which iiiusthe totally paid up within two rears : and1(

further that the American Smielti'n14 nun Re-finling Company, whichi is the, company ime-hind the whole scheme.e wvill give -1 lond .4atis-I aetorv to the Government in Ohe suin ofc,50.06l0. Au~trkaliam currency. A comlilniV~lhas been formed, namely, Big Bell MnsLtd., having. its, registered office ini thi, ,fatemand the r.:to~l bas now been fulls- in))-scribed. The estinmateri cos;t of the raiwais £60,000. When the niegotiations for thlebuilding or tilte line (OlflhlWnlCed, the Glovern-icilt 11er1e asker) to tak-e the bondI of N mcmri-canl Smelting and Refining Company of New.Jersev% to the effect thant the mill, wlieh tmestbe built under the agreenient, would he buiilt.It will be noticed onl reference to Clause -2,paragraphs We and. (d). of the agrrtementin the sehiedlile to thie Bill, that it is providedthe t'oiipuiilv must eqip a nuill havinle thecapacity of treating, for the extraction of

I ASSEMBLY.]

g-old, at least 2.5,(00U tonrs of gold-bearing oreper mounth, Thle Government, of course, donot desire to build a line and then find thatthe company does not honour its obli-gation to build the mill, hence the provisionin regard to the bond. Inquiries wvith refer-ence to the American Smelting and RefiningCoropanY of Yell Jersey prove that it is ateOlpali V of very large ll-ources and of un-doubtedl finanei; stabi lity, and tile Govern-Ineat were advised that thley could Well ac-cept the bond of flint comlpanlY, which issponsoring thlis yenu re. Another questionthen arose as to whether the comnpany couldlegally give the boud, and thle Crown Solici-tor caused irvj iries to be made in Americain Iliat c-onnection as, of course, theleitor '1ucm a homuil woul he governed by thepnoi i -i on of i.. Anme ninn law whor filteA niricum Smieltintr andI Refining Comipanyis inuoni'oratcd. It was found that the coin-pall 'y -ouild nlot ncthe handlf unless it hleldthle majority of 11w share capital iii theeoiiLpiany it was sponsoring, amad, there L!ore.the ';erecent provided that the NnicrieanSamultinn :11and Refinling Con'lpauiv shouIl ne-qulite ,indl hold this interest and then givethle kind, The vomponv has weqni red a majo-rit interest in the ittI! 'Bell M kines, Ltd. Illpreparing the agreveent, IIe( law officer.;inserted a clans;'v specifying thlat tIlf.cour-ts in this St-M:v mnay lie resortedto inl anx- action onl thle agreement,and the same provision appears inl the bond.According to English conepltions, of inter-national law, such a Olnuse wouild lie en-forceable and in order to make sure thatthe Amknerican courts wxould reognise a jud-_mntri obtained here oil such a clause, inqliirywasL made from1 M1r, Coluhoy, thle legal re-presentative in America, mid he confirmedthe fact that it would. It -was also ])rovidedthat if it were necessar- to take any action-under the bond, servic of proceedings mightbe effected at the office of thle local companyo'- at thle offie of MIessrs. Stone, James &Co.. who are solicitors inl this, State for theAmerican Smelting and Refinling- Company.It will he notied- that the agreemeut wasesecuted by M "r. Dale Pitt onl behalf of theAmerican Smelting and Refining Companyof New Jersey and that lie acted under theauthority of a cabled communication. Itw.as- stipulated that the agreement should beratified by the major company, and this hasbeen done. It appears, therefore, that allformalities are now in order and there is

no legal obstacle to the Bill being passed.The usuat plans that are provided for inSection 27 of the Public Works Act, 1927,have lbeenl laid onl the Table, shiowing theroute of the railway. I do not think therei.-; -,n % necessity for me to say any more insubmII .itting the Bill to the House.

Sir. SlIeeman : What is the estimated eaostol' the line?

The MYINISTER FOR MINES. The auth-orities Lay £60,000. The hon. member canverifyv that if he reads the report submittedby the Transport Board, in which he willalso see thmat they claim, as they have nearlyall the sleeper, aind rails that are required,the cost will probably be reduced by £E550j'er mile. Whether that be so or not I can-not say, hut that is the statement in theirreport; it is not ni)v statement. On the otherhaind, even if the State has to spend £60,000on [lie construction of the line and goldsh)ould drop to £4 per ounce and the corn-pai s decided not to go oin with the propo-sition, Western Australia, although thle linehand been constructed, would he lproteeted tothe extent of £C50,0)00 inl Australian currency.Tha would leave us £l10:000 only to find ont ile value of the rails and sleepers.

Hlon. C. G. Labliam : I do not think thewnrreement says that.

Trhe M1INISTER FOR MIN'ES: I thinkit; does.

1Hon. C. G. Latham: I do not.Mfr. SPEAVKER: Order!The MI\1NiSTER FOR M-\INES: On the

other hand, if the company erects a plantand dtoes, thle developmnental work to thesatisfaction of the State MAining Engineer,it inill' bairing spent that much money on theundertaking-, be entitled to withdraw a givenproportion of the bond. That is a fairarrangement. 'When the plant has beenerected and allI the developmental work hasbeen curried out to the satisfac-tion of theState M3ining Engineer, the hood will he-come null and void.

lion. C. G. Latham: That is so, but theageemient does not specify that the companymust coritiniue to operate the mine.

The 2)[INISTER FOR M1INES: No, butif the compiany puts £400.000 into the pro-position-

Hon. C. G. Latham: 1 was referring toyour remark that if the price of golddropped to £4 an ounce, the State wouldstill be protected, whereas we would not beso protected.

[22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.] 729

The AllN1STER FOR MI11NES: TheLender of the Opposition is wrong. If theBill is passed-i hope it will be passed byParliament quickly-and construction workis started, the line ought to be almost comn-pleted in December. I hope it will be comn-pleted Ib% then, because the country to betraversed is flat and presents no engineeringdiflieultie<.

Hon. N. Keenan: Is that £C400,000 Englishcurrency!?

The MINISTER FOR MI1NES: I take itit is Australian currency, but I am not posi-tive oil the point. The company has beenformed in Australia and I take it the moneywiltlihe Australian currency. In additionto that, it is Australian money we shall spendonl the construction of the line. Revertingto the interjection by the Leader of the Op-position, I would point out that if therailway were completed by December verylittle, if any, of the machinery wouldbe on the job. Only a very smallproportion would lie there. If the price ofgold did drop hr the end of the year to £C4anr ounce, and the eomipany decided not to gooil wi th the proposition, the State would beprotected to the extent of £50,000. 1 thinkthat is a pretty reasonable deal to make onlbehalf of the State.

Hon. C. G. Lathamn: Thenr I do not thinkyou have read the agreemient.

The M.[NISTER. FOR MITNES: Haven'tI? There is more in this proposition thanthe mecre con.atruction by thre Government ofa spur line from Cue to the Big Bell Mfine.I will go so far as to say that if the coml-panty can make a success of the Iproposition,and does wha t the State Mining Engineersays the company ' vwill do, namely, treat30,000 tons of ore at month for a clear profitof £15,000, the company will have estab-lished the fact, (lespite what all other miningmen have said to the contrary, that ore of avalue of 3.508 dwts. per ton head values canlbe mined successfully in Western Australia.

Mr. Sleeman: No other company has donethat.

The MINISTER FOR MTINES: No\. Ifthe comprany proves that such a big low-grade proposition can be profitably worked,it will have done something of far morevalue to the State than is represented by the£60,000 to be spent on the spur line to theBigl Bell.

Mr. Patrick: I hope you do not intend totake the sleepers and rails from the Dart-mooar line.

Tire MINISTER FU'R MIXES: We aretaking the sleepers and rails from the juan-g1anle'e lint'. We are not taking the materialthat is, stacked at Vuna, so the member forGreetioug-h (Mr. Patrick) need not be dis-turbed.

Mr. Stubibs: D oes the ag-rement providechat the company will pay the usual ratesof freight charged by the Railway Depart-nent?

The MI1NISTERI' OR MINES : Ofcourse they will pay.

Mr. Stubbs : It is not in the agreement.The 'MINISTER FOR M[NES: No; the

ronipar endeavoured to secure a concessionfrom thle CJomm issioner of Rail ways so as tohave the advantage of lower freighlts. butdlid not succeed.

Hll. U.. 1. Latham : 'fie Commissioner ofRail ways will (i t rol tile Iline.

The MINISTER F'OR MI1NES: Ye;, andthe cornpariy will I dv the usual railwaycharg-es. Members will see inl the report ofthe Transport Boarid that the estimate givenby thre Commissioner of Railways of therevenue to be rteeived onl the 20i miles ofspur ti tlc, does not take into considerationthle hauilage of material over thle existinglinei from Oeraldton to Cue. which will hie a!,inimense factor. Thousands of tons willhave to be hauled.

.%r. Patrivk: I hop1 e all will be hauledfromt (era ldton anad not from Frema ntle.

The MIINISTER13 lORl MINES: 'file (cin-pony will procure machinery overseas andI do not think those conicer.ned wol befoolish enough to discharge the consien-mnents at Freman tle. wvheu thev c-ould dis-chur--e at Geraldton and save 400 mile., ofextra haulage. It the machinery and otherrequirements are hauiled from Gle-aldlton. theextra revenue from CGeraldton to Cue,' aswell as that derived over the 20 miles of linefromi Cue to BigI Bell, 1w1i represent anenormous advantageP. I mnove-

That the Bill be now read a second tinv.On motion by 'Mr. Doney, debate ad-

journed.

BILL,-PETROLEUM.

In Conmmit tee.

Mr. Sleeinan ink the Chair; the Ministerfor M\ines in charge of the Bill.

Clauses 1 to 11-agreed to-Clause 12-Governor to have rim -t of

prc-enu'tioii of petroleum:

[ASSEMBLY.)

M1r. McDO-NALD: Under this clause tileLUovernor shall have thle right of pre-euip-tion of all lpetrolelul prodluced by a lesseefronm any land held pnder a petroletumlease, and in the event of thle Governorexercising sulch right, the lessee or ownerconcerned wvill take all reasonable stepsto facilitate the delivery of the petroleumtor products thereof, as the Governor maydirect. The price to he paid for petroleumor products thereof purchased by the (Joy-ernor pursuant to the right of pre-eriptionshall, tailing mutual agreenmen t betweenthe Minister and the vendor, be determinedby arbitration under the provisions of theArbitration Act, 1895. 1 presume the pricewould be die market price at the timie. Theonly question I want to raise on this clauseis the position that would have to be mectin an emergency. Petroleum is of imimenseimportance in world affairs, even ina time of peace, aind is of criticalimiportance in time of xvar, or even tindera threat of war. Because of rumtours (of

war the price of petrol might go to a veryhigh figure. I should like thle Minister to,say, whether he thinks somie reservationsmnay) not be made in regard to an asset ofsuch enormous value. I do not suggestthat any harsh or even ungenerous treat-;-nent should he meted out to the leasehlold-era. I should be satisfied with a provi-sion to enable the Governor to take overany lease, and then see to it that the holderwas mnost gecnerously reimbursed, even u1pto tenl or fifteen timies the outlay made onthe lease. T merely raise the questionwhether, with an asset of such enormousimportance, we might not have some addi-tional safeguards in the event of an emier-gency, safeguards that would conserve theoil wvells, and also protect the people fromnpaying an exorbitant price. I hope ifever there be another war, every countrywill bring in legislation preclnding whatwas so unpleasant a feature of the lastwar, namely, profiteering by people whomade enormnous fortunes out of war miate-rials.

'Mr. Fox: Stop profiteering and you -willstop wait

Mr. 'McDONALD: The Minister miay saythat if aln emergency were to arise, theState would bring down special legislationto meet it, and to enable the people to takecharge of essential services.

lon. C. Ui. Lathain: T he Federal Lioveri:-nielit would do that.

Mr. McDOIKALD: I should ]ike the Min-ister to say whether he chinks considera-tion igh-t be given to smile further pre-cautions or reservationis to mneet a state ofelliergeilcy.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: This Luat-ter has been discussed very fully. Theclauise provides that if no agreementhe arrived at, thle compensation to be paidshall be decided by arbitrat ion uinder theArxbitration Act, 1895. I think all themachinery necessary to satisfactory arhi-tratioaL is contained in that Act, and per-sonally I do not think we should go anyfarther than to give the right to the Gov-ernor to claimi and take possession of thepetroleumi and its products. It mnust bereinwmlbercd that the 'clause provides apenalty of L1,0OO for a recalcitranit lesseeor owner. Personally I do not think weought to go any farther.

H-on. N. Keenan: What would be theprice at which you would rake over thepetroleum ?

The MINISTER FOR MNINES: You arenow asking me what the decision of theArbitration Court would be.

Hon. N. TKeenan : N.\o, hut I wras wonider-ing what would he the price.

T.he MINISTER FOR IMINES: I shouldsay, the market price on the day. It couldnot be raised in one day. 'Moreover, if suchain attempt were mafde, the ArbitrationCourt wvould not agree, I do not thinikthiere is% an 'y niecessity to g"o any farther,.hut. if my friend desires that the Stateshould have still greater protection, I haveno objection to it.

Clause put and passed.Clauses 13, 15--agreed to.

Progress reported.

BILL-PEARLING CREWS ACCIDENTASSURANCE rUND.

.qecond Reading.

Debate resumied froto the Sih September.

HON, C. G. LATHAM (York) (.5.22]: 1hope inemnIers have had oliportunitv toperuise this lpiceC of legislation, because itis an acceptance of a new policy in insur-ance. It is pjroposed that the emnployee nhlallmnake contribution towairds an insurancefuand(, which, of couirse, is going out of the

[22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.1 8

ordinary track. It is also proposed to in-sure those empilloyees only when they arework ingbelow high-water mark. I un Zr;

the lugger, aire laid up on the shore, andthe crews aire employed on repairs and thatsort of thing' It is not proposed that theyvshiall he covered by insurance (luring thatperiod. It.lta4 been; decided that there shallhe no in-u rance for those people at thattime. 1 do not know whether the Mlinisterintends this to apply to li'oomeo, becauseI notice that in the interpretation clause itis stated that a licensed pearler is a personholding nkit exclusive license, and I under-stand there is no exclusive license at all atBroome. If so, of course, this mneasure willnot aplly to Broome. Therefore I proposeto move ,iii aniendmnent that, if successful,wsill wake it apply to Btooiii. There areexclusive ivenses, at Shark Bay, and per-haps also ait Onslow, although there is none

-it lBroomei, and I was given to understandthat the measure was intended to apply toBroonme. The Minister said the pearlers hadasked hini to introduce this legislation.Therefore I am prepared to accept it. Itis extraordinary. that, last year, the Ministercamte along and asked for certain powersso as to reduce the license fee for pearler-3.Now, this Year, thle present Minister coniesalong and [imposes to put a tax onl the in-flustrv. Or course that could not be donewithout the Minister's authoiritv. So itseemts the SRtate is being asked to forego cer-linl licensze fees with a view to paying into

this proposed fund. I ask the Minlisterwhat reduction was made tinder the anenil-mnent of lqat year, and whether it was aboutequal to the proposal in the Bill, natmely,about £10 per lugger. I contend it is a con-tribution from the State to the industry. Theboard is to consist- of seven mnembers. The-Minister Iw , not told ius whether those meni-hers ar to I)(' paid. or if so. hiow much they-shall he pamid. 'P['he board will pa.-esspioweirs which have never yet been given toanyone el]-;. Members mnight wvell take thatinto conideration, biecause this is a pieceof lezislation that inight bp used] in a flewwarq~ in the future. I supplose the represen-tation onl the hoard is a ver- fair one: Ishould think it wvas, hut once the members.of that board are appointed, they are ap-pointed for lift', and we do not yet know,whether they are to be paidi, and if so, howimuch. The elinirnuan. if absent from a1 meet-iniz, i% to noininate a deputy, So we do not

here follow the democratic idea of allowing-the board to appoilit its own chairmlan. Inotice that although the crews are to be in-sured no provision is made for the shell-opener. Perhaps the Mintister will tell uswhyv he is excluded. Usually lie is a white

ianl.Mr', Coverley: He comes under the

Wl~orkers' Compensat ion Act.Hon. C. G. LATHAM: When on thle higlIt

s-eas ?M1r. Coverlev: Yes.lion. C. G. LATHAM: 'em.' well, I will

accept the hon. member as an authority, butI am still afraid the shell-opener is not cov-ered. Mlost certainly that man, as -well asthe others, oughbt to he covered by the policy.

Ihope the Minister will agree to a fewamendments I intend to move when in Coin-utittee. It is proposed to obtain the funidby receivii contributions fromt the diversand other members of the crew. I am gointo utove that thle divers shall pay £2, thatthe higher-paid nmembers of the crew shallpay £1 each, andl that the ordinary seamenshtalt pa 'y 5s, I understand that the ordin-ary seaman gets but very small wages;. con-sequently he should not be called upon topay much. It is proposed to raise £C1,500under this leg-islation and that in the interimbetween thle passing- of the Act and the ob-tainingl of a fund, the hoard is to have powverto insure with anly reputuble company, in-eluding thle Sta tek Insurance Ollice.The li.istion providles that besides thesecontribitiion, mniv levies nay' be mde.These levie are not to exceed £1,500 during-the( fir-st three years~. Aftter that, however.they' can exceed thie amiount to any extentthe( hoard likes. They vran be fixed at £1,500)a year or £1.500 cveiy five months. Thatouzlht to he provided for by legislation. Ac-eordiiiglv I T roptie to move that at no timecs-hall thtey be permitted to exceed £C1,600 ex-celpt as to thle contribtins set otit in dileclaim-c of the Bill dealing- with that mnatter.I avree, that thle fund( shlould go on1, btmt somiecontrol should lie taken over tile levies to lienmade. I also note that we are setting asidethe Truck Act. 'Fhe Bill gives power to theInirger-ownem's, tile lear~ers, to deduct fromntheir crew5 the inone *y that g-oes to mnake tiptheir contributions. If these crews areoverdrawn, as is, uisually the ease, where isthle mioiie v to conle froml ? Does it miean thatthe pearlers will have to pay* ? Presumllablythat is tile iintention The iuo~zt extraordinarytlilia- inl the Bill reltes to the palymlent Of

731

732 [ASSEMBLY.]

cI aimis. We do not k now what the ciauntsare golig to he, Or what ann' utiIs will haveto hec paid. We do trot know what money

will live to I e pai it' a death; nor do weIkn'ow wvhetIher tirere is any differentiation be-tweetn thre higher ipaid men and thle lowerp)aid muelt, 11or to whom thle money is to bepaid. We provide now that in tire ease of anassured person with dependents, dying, theIint~ raw conin ' vloldonly pays the hospitalanti[ irredieal expenses. Tn this ease in thleevent of tho etr of' a person, we proposeto Iharid over to Ilhe Consular representative,or clb or :rssoctijolt, tile compensationMonney. Who ist -oing to say what willhappenr ti) tile nronev ? Surely we0 tie not

gn g to paq., Ierz isi atiort to pay over certaincomnIpisaltiort iror c to ai (l) or associa-tioni. whether such cl1ub or association is eni-titled to tire mnrey or not. Who is to saythat the depenrdanits o C thle deceased person1Avill I get tire mone1y ? I amn waitingfor the inie r for Kimberley (21r.Covericy ), who is g-retitly interestedin these people, to say, whether hie wifll agreeto tile money bei ng paid to s nie Japaneseclub or association.

Hrv. Covericy: I have more faith in humannature than has tire Leader of the Opposi-tion.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM: Then why do wenot trust our own white people? Actuallythle hon. r mm 'or would he thle last to trustour owr: peopleI, arid Yet lie is preparecd tohave tlrisg tio- handed over to a foreignecplemn it.

.\It. Thorn: A fail tar shooi.lion C. GI. LATHLAM: I do not suggest

that. The 'Minister has not even told theHouse wvhant the vonpensation is going to be.Souppose somrethinrg happewned such as hap-pened in Mlarch, 1935. 1 arin told that at0380 per iigger the arinouri of comp~ensationinvolved iii 1935 wouid come to £E7,600. Ip~resumei it is prroposed to pay anl equalanroun I, in thle event of a disaster, for everymember of the crew, but I do not know ifit is proposed to pay mrnoe onl the death of a(liver than onl the (loath of an ordinary seia-mnan. The Ilinrister has given tire House veeyiittle informration. I do not know whodrafted tris ieg-islation. hut I presume theMinister was responsible for it. I knowwhat would have happened if we had broughtdown this Bill. it is thle most autocratic leg-islation I havever seen introduced. If therei-s any dispoute, the board is to have the solesay as to bowv the distribution is to he made,

anrd there is to be no apI peai flort the board.The courts are not to be used.

Mr. Siceman :Too much goes out in legalexpenises.

I-on. C. 0. LATHAM: The decision of theboard is to be final in all eases. It shall not

be subject to review, or be liable to be quashedin any court whatsoever. This gives theboaril stir autocratic powers as .1we havet'iven to no) Other t ribunial yet. Memrbers

(>llosite onught to be strenuously opposingthis <ott of thing. I pres5umfe that every-thing- ai rerta iirr to indent uredl labourConies undtaer C omm onwcailth rude. There isa proper 'vay il ivhieh to do this. Weshould a-sccrtrin before a ny i ndettures areentered into whIet her tire persons concernedhave dependanrts, whro they are, anad wherethey live. We wonuid then have something towork onl. Our own officials could then deter-

toim who had to lie paid, instead of theriontey icing hranded over to an irresponsibleboard.

Mr. Hodoreda: rrhat is a Commonwealthmatter.

Hon. C. G. LATHAMI: There would be notlouIbie i~n making arrangemen's with theCommonwealth authorities. In the case ofindentured laboue, they could ascertainthrough their agents, or at the source,whether these people have dependarts andwho they are, so that wve could then pay themroney Over to our representatives iii theparticular coutntry concernied, atnd so thatwe wvould knowv that the money' was paid intine direction iii which it ought to go. Atpresent, there is n~o means of detwrniinngwvhether there arc nny dependants. WVe haverno right to give a foreigner something wewould not give to our owvn people, wvhich iswhat this legislation does. We propose tohand over to tile Consular representative, ora club or association, any money the depend-:nts woutld be entitled to receive on the deathof ally, miember of a lugger's crew. irrespec-tive of whether there are ally dependants orriot. We do irot indulge in that sort of thingwvith our own people, and we should not doit in the ease of foreigners. If there are de-pendants, they should be compensated, butthe money should be paid over in the way Ihave described. NO provision has been madefor medical or hospital expenses. If anypayments are to be made under these head-ings, they should be riade to our own people.

Mr. Coverley: The terms of the indenturedlabour provide for that.

[22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.]7S

lion. C. G. LATHIAM: That is what Ithought. I could not get any information asto whether any indentures were vailable inthis State, .No provision is made in theSchedule of the Act, and 1 therefore decidedthat this would be a matter for the Common-wealth authorities. I do not propose to voteagainst this Bill, for I believe the pearlershlave asked for it. .As they have asked forit, they hadl better get it. They are notcalling upon the State for any contributions,except the relief tircy got last year bcecauseof the unfinancial position of their indlustry. vFront the inforimation I have [ g-ather thatthe cost will be about £10 pr lugger for thepecarler, and that the balance will be madeup1 by the crew. As I have indicated, T p1o-pose to move an amiendmient limiting thlelevie's that shiall be imposed upon the peoirlerito an amiount eqnal to that levied upon thecrews. As I have tnt vet hadl time in whichto draft iny' amendmnent, 'r ask the M1inisternot to piroceed wvith the Commnittee sttagenow. The officer wrho does the drafting hasa lot of other work to do in the Crowvn LawDepartment. When a number of Bills arebrought down hr' private members;, this4officer cannot hie expected to do at onceall the work required of him. Evidently thisBill is the result of an arranzement betweenthe 'Minister and the pearlers. Thle unfor-tunate crews are probably being fore] intothis, whether theev like it or not.

On motion by M1r. Coverley, debate ad-journed.

BILL-TENANTS, PURCHASERS ANT)MORTGAGORS' RELIEF ACT

AMENDMENT.Second Reading.

Debate resumed from the Sth September.

HOW. C. G. LATHAM (York) [5.401:This Bill contains two provision.:, one forthe continuance of the Act for another year.and the other to prtevent tenants from con-trnetinc- outside the provisions of the Act.The Minister said the principle had beenpassed by this House. It has never beenpassed hr t'his Hlouse. If we desire a con-tinuiation of this legislation, we must votefor the second reading, hut to sugrcst thatIre have approve] of the principle is to say.sornethinz that is not true. The Mfinizterknows we cannot. vote against the second!reading if we des-re the Act to be continued

This is the lirar jee of legislation intro-dared as part of the finanicial emergencylegislation. Tihe House mlight agree t'o theaplpointmlent of a select committee to investi-gate this piece of legisation, and to ascer-tain how we couldl give more relief from thleharsh conditions imposed and the extenit towhichi it is nccssary to wiiden the conditions.I do not propose to agree to the secondehause of the Bill, azi it will defeat the objectthe MAinister has; in view. During the past12 month s I understand there have been 12orders for- proteftion' ,11 -illig, troi sevenldays to six weeks, an average ui .one amionth. The leg-islation does not apply toan l' per'-' who has entered into ally con-tractt inc.e thle passing of th2. Act Themoust unfair thing in this closci leg-islation

'hai we 21'i! calling upl il ~e iliVidial tofinid homeUs for v'Arious pe)ople2. STuely it isfor the State to find the rent for thesehomes. What i~tghr have we to askan individual who may be dependent uponthe income from a house;. to find shelter forthe person who cannot afford to pay therent. It is clearly a Government function.

Mr. Sleemtan: I-ave you always thought.t ha t:

Hon. C. 0I. LATIIAM: Yes, having re-gzard to lte '1uiioun t mA. niofleyl available.The present Government have plenty ofnmoriov available.

,Xr. Sleenian : Thanks for letting themtknow.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM:- They have anyamiount of money.

Mr. Withers: F or the Fremnantle bridge,for instance.

lon. C. G. LATHAM: They have notatttemrpted to do anything decent yet. Theycan substitute a trolley bust servie for atramnway service at a cost of £84,000, andcan do(I a number of stupid things likethait. I am suirprised at miembers agreeingto that kind of thing.

MNr. Sleeman: What kind of thing?lion. C. 0. TLATHAM: The spending of

moneyv in that direction.Mr. Sleemarn: Tn what directionH-on. C. r.. IATHAM: Substitutingo trrol.

lev buses for trains.Mv. PEAKER: Order! The lion, menu-

her is Ero~nq outside the- scope of the Bill.Hon. C. G. T-ATHAM:%I The Government

hare plenty' of money, v and yet are forcingindividuals to provide thlese homes. Itoughlt never to be a duty of the individual.

733

[ASSEMBLY.]

When the legislation was first passed, mianyeases camne tinder our notice. In one in-stance the sole investment of a widow wasin a. house, and she was entirely dependentupon the rent.

The Minister for Agriculture; What didyou do about it?

Hotn. C. G. LATHAM: We gave reliefwherever it was possible.

Mr. Hegney: Those cases are decided hrthe court.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM: If we pass thislegislation, a wvonian like that would haveno opportunity to go to the court. Whatis going to be the position? Will p)eoplesay, "You can come into Our house"'9 Onlthe contrary, those who want homes willnot be able to get them. To-day most ofthem are able to secure somie home forthemselves. So that is one reason I thinkwhy the House should agree to the appoint-ient of a scleer commiittee, to go intothis and to give relief where it is foundpossible to give it. I notice that when theMKinister introduced the Bill, he said hehoped it would be only for a year. Ifthat was so, why -was it necessary to putin this second clause? The Minister knowshe will be quite prepared to accept thelegislation as it was last yealr. I hope theHouse will agree to a select conmmittee toinvestigate all this financial em'ergencylegpislation, with a view to seeing how far-relief can be given, and that it will notforce the second clause, which will notbring about the end the Minister desires;.

MR, McDONALD (West Pecrthi) [5.46]:I support the suggestion that all lihat re-I*IIiS of what we eall the financial emler-

gnv legislation should go before a. seletcoiniittec. We have already abolished agieat part of that legislation and Parliamenth as considered that the time has arrived whenaill salaries throughout the Civil Service andParliament can be restored to pre-depressionfigrures. It therefore b)eomes an anomalyto find that sonic people and sonic classes ofpeople have been relieved of the burdenput upon01 them by this legislation, and othersare still left to carry that burden, withoutany indication as to when it will be lifted.There is some legislation such as theMNortgagees' Righlts Restriction Ac.t which itinay s till be found necessary to keep on thestatute-book for a certain tinie, hot eventhat Act could he recast into a more equitable

Corn, by which, instead of a1 pem''on who isentitled to enforce thle securities being nowcompelled to show why lie should be able toenforce them, it should be turned round theother way , as it has always been in Vie-toria, and( the persn owing tile mioney shouldhare the burden p&med upon him of showingthe circumistances thich entitle him to fur-ther protection until he canl lay. If wvehad a select committee, these outstanding-pieces of emerge legislation could 1)0 lonl-.sidered together, and recommuendations madeas to the best umeans Parliament ould adoptto deal with thenm at the lpresePnr time, andhowt far we .4lould continue to enforee them.As far -as time l)1'csent legislation is ,onl-cerned, it has remnained in force for someyears, hut as regardls tenancies, it has ceasedto have c flrv mooch., lractical implortance hie-oawve practivall' a ;ll tenants and landlordshave contram ed out of the Act. As regards,mortgagors owing mioney under mortgagesand purchasers who are buying propertiesand still owe mnoney under purchase con-tracts, thle Bill still hias somne force becausetheir contracts, for the most p~art, beinglonjig-dated, still remain in force. Longw-dated conltracts still remain in operation.By the Act as it was prior to Ihi-' Bill, anilyclause iii a mortgage or purchase contractrmade befome tin'( 1.30 Act wasi pasicl. whichdeclared that the contract szhould not 1)0affected liv emlergrenicy legi.hutionl, wasdedlared to bn. invalid. Tile result is that anlypurchacscr or mortgagor under contract mnadeprior to 1930 canl, inl the ease (Of unemnploy-nuent, st dl comne hefoie a. magistrate and askfor sonme relief from thle conditions createdby the unemployment. By this Bill, whichab3olishesi Section 24 of th previous meat-tire, that protection, for what it is worth,is-taken away from thle ilunmaser or themortga: gor. AXs to the main part of the Bill,that is the chause -,hich provides that ten-ants shall not be a-ble to contract out of theapiplication of this Act, I propose to vote.against it. To all omin- cegencvPi~ legisl1ationit has been a principle that as to contractsmade after the emuergenicy Act wasz passed,the p~arties could, if they thought fit, agreethat the Act should not apply. As to allcontracts which existed onl the date the par-ent Act was passed, people bound underthose contracts were entitled to ltme beneil ofthe emergency legislation, but if any personchose, after thle Ac:t was passed, to contrac-tthat the Act should not apply, they werefinite at liberty to doi so. That prolrion

[22 SEPTEMBER. 1()36]'3

stilt apphrf-- and htrs becen in operation inconnrtdion (.itthe M)ortgagees' Righits Re-striction A1-t for iian'y veatrs. I do not seewhiy wve should turn the clock back as re-'Arcls this inirtir-ular Bill, and take fromn thegeneral piublic the freedom ot contract theylhave enjoyedl -inee 1930. Under this Bill,Clau-.e 2 or which now erideavours to ),.o-bibit contracting, out, instead of tapering offim, ur i-ier.nf- -vlegislation, wte at-e going hadl.to tire voiti 011 that obtairted in 2.9:30. Weare takinr- away the liberty of controlwhich thle emergency legislation has givento the public arid which they have enjoyedsince 1931) of' 2.931. 1 A0o not wvant to seethe clock put back. It has been a principlewhich this Parliament has adopted that pew-pIe in ain- contracts made since the emnergrencyleg-ihirtinn u-a. introduced should have, thepow-cr to r'ruhtte their own affairs, and thuprescint l'r-pc'al is a. reactionary step. hrwhieli, whent oine pe~ople are being relievedfromn the Provisions of the emnerzency legis-lation. thtene i-; being- iniposd Onl a, Certainclass tiot inert-l'v a continuance off the presentconditions;, but worse conditions or gr-eaterrestriction ita fizil titer have had Overi the pastfew xears

Mr. Raphael: TheY- are gettinra twit - asmeh rent.

3r, Mcl~t NA Li): The people who ownthle houscsi OC-tllicd by the unfor-tunate un-emiployed arc not rich mcei. The rich milinever own.; sitiall houses.

MNr. Raphael : Would youn iot Call theotenilaer for -Swan a richi man?

Mir. MC \-ONLT): I do not know whattite mernhrvr for Swan has to do with it.(lencrally speakingI the mal of means doesnot own a9 sniall house for rental purposes.As a gePneral rutle, it is a poor- investmentutid these houses are mostly owned by peopleit-Io themtselves have very sinall means,. Theyfeel very acutely thle losses they incur as aresult of thle prevailing- bad times. Thesefolk aire mostly -working people themselves,-'rto have saved a littleomorrev- for their 01(1.- e. and I feel that the sooner wve can re-here this: class of small landlord of the but-

dcei restin-x onl them, which does not rest onlthe great majority of people, irteluding civilservants atid outrselves, the better it will be.I oppose Section 2, which seeks to imposemore restrictioits than ei-er by prohihitinwcontracting- out, and I hope there will be anopportunity of all this legislation being eon-sider-ed hv I ;elect corrinrlifte, in Order tirtwe m~ay he iven some gulide as to what to

do this session in regard to these outstand-ing, financial emergency enactmuents.

THE MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT(Hon. A. R. G, I-awke-'Northatn-inI-CpAY) [5.56] : It is remiarkably stratnge thleideas the Leader of the Opposition developswhten out of office. The Goverrnmentt ofwitic-h lie was a member were responsiblefor the initiationi of Cte legislationt we areitow (liscussiig, aitd they placed all the re-spontsibility for loss of rent, where loss ofrent ccuirredi, onl tire sho~uldeis of thle land-lord. No\tw when lie has no responsibility-it ail ill regard to this legislation. excepithie rc-ipolitibil ity vCarried by anl a ndinlarvueriber, lie develops art1 idea enttire-ly tile re-verse of that which hie hteld whenl a MAinisterini tire previous Govermentt. He sug-4estsnow that intstead of the responsibilit 'y inthese c-ases restin- ws-ere it has 0tlwav'srested, that the State should conic iil atid:rsqune the whole of the responsibility-.

lon. C. G, Lathtain :It is less itow thtanit was when we took it onl.

The MIlNISTER FOR EMIPLOYMNENT:It is agreed that tile ntinler of c ases is farless, but tle principle is nt difilerxrrt.. Thin-.arle case's of hardship caused by thre op('ri-lion of this legislation. hut those Cases areless numerous to-day than they were in pre-ivions years. Althoughi the Leader of theOpposition suggests that this legislation willpr1obably go on for several years longer, ].rather express the oplitioni that next yearuray be the last year in which this legisla-tioit w-ill be found to be necessary. Regard-irig thle provisions in tile Bill to lpreventcontracting outside of the Act, the memberfor West Perth sugg-ested that their adop-tion would mnean the taking away frompecople the liberties previously enjoyed hrthremt under the legislation ais it now exists.While tue adoption of the proposal mig-httake away the liberty of some, it will at thesamne time give a, liberty to others which theyat present do not possess. What libertyhas the unemtployed manl who seeks to obtaina house inl which he and his family niightlive if the landlord can present him withan ultimatumn to the effect that he musteither sign a contract depriving hitmself ofevery particle of protection which the Actwould give him, or else he refused the righitto occupy thle house!I

Mfr. Cross: That is being dlone every day.The )IIESTER FOR EMVPLOYMENT:

It seems clear that the only liberty wve pro-

735

736 [ASSM~IBLY.]

pose to take away is the liberty of land-lords to place such an ultimatum before un-fortunately-circumstanced people in thecommunity who desire to obtain a place inwhich to live.

Hon. C. G. Latham: But you also pro-pose to cancel all the contracts wich havebeen made.

The MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT:Yes.

Hon. C. G. Latham: That is more thanyou said you were proposing to do.

The MINISTER FOR EM.%PLOYMENT:I think a majority of members will agreethat while liberty to do that is to be takenawn y., Ave are proposing to give to the moreunfortuately-situated people a liberty toobtain some shelter for themselves and theirfamilies, which liberty they do not possessunder the existing Act. On balance, I thinkit must be agreed that while a certain formof undesirable liberty, will he taken fromsome people, a Much mnore desirable form ofliberty wvill be vouchsafed to others.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

7n Committee.

1.r. Sleemian in the Chair; the Minister forEmiploym~ent in charge of tlhe Bill.

Clause 1-agreed to.Clause 2-Amiendmrent of Section 24:

Hon. C. G. LATHAM: rhe clause pro-vides that evecry contract or agreement, wvhe-ther made before or after the commence-ment of this measure, purporting to abrogateor prejudicially affect the rights of any ten-ant under the provisions of the measure shallbe absolutely void in so far as it abrogatesor prejudicially affects such rights. I havealready pointed out that we should not agreeto the clause. The Minister said that thislegislation was introduced by the Govern-meont of which I was a member. That isquite true, but the conditions then weretotally dlifferent. The Government of thattime had barely enoug-h mnoney to feed thepeople, and landlords were required to makesome contribution to the sacrifice. There isa great difference betwveen the conditions nowas comp1 ared with those of 1930. The clausewill not, do what the Minister desires. Thou-sands of doeuments have beeni signed sincethe passing of the Act by which tenants haveagreed not to avail themselves of the provi-sions of the Act.

Mr. Cross: Landlords compel people tosign before they will let them go into thehouses.

Hon. C. G. LATlIAMI: It is a conditionof nearly all mortgages at present. If wepass the clause, people will not be able toget homes at all. The Minister has pointedout that the conditions of the part-timeworker have greatly inproved. Why do notthe Government build homes to meet thehousing difficulty? They have the necessarypower under the Wokr I Homes Act. Theyshould build checap homes, not homes costing£500, £000, £700 or £800, of wvhich men de-sirous of coming under the Act cannot availthemselves.

The CHAIRMAN: There is nothing aboutwvorkers' homes in this clause.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM: But that subject isrlo.ely allied to the question before the Corn-

mttee. It the Government force the clausethrough. liheyv will not render a service tothe people who have not homes, but will maketheir position worse. Probably the MinisterwvillI contend that by passing the second read-ing, or the Bill, we have accepted the policyconta ined in the Clause, but we had to passthe second reading in order to get the originallegislation in-enacted.

M~r. RAPHAEL: I hope the Minister willadhere to the clause. Attempts have beenmade for a number of years to get a similarprovision passed, bitt unsuccessfully. TheConditions of the workers have not improvedto such an extent as have those of membersof Parliament by the restoration of theirsalaries. The Government, in conjunctionwith the Perth City Council and with roadboards, have taken action against tenants torecover rates. The Leader of the Opposi-tion said that conditions had improved.

Hoin. C. Gf. Latham: That is according tothe Minister.

Mr. RAPHAEL: The Leader of the Oppo-sition said they had improved since 1930.

Mr. Thorn: You know they have.Mr. RAPHAEL: The ,y have not improved

for some of the hon. nmember's cockies whoare being thrown off thme land. When theauthorities take action to recover rates,threats are made to seize the furniture andeffects of tenants, and immediately the ten-ants arrange to meet the liability, the land-lords tell them to get out of the houses. Awotmian in Victoria Park, who expects to beconfined within the next 14 days, has a courtorder against her requiring her to leave the

[22 SEPTEMBER) 1936.)73

honuse, she liming, contracted outside the Act-Jf thre clauQse he passed, such a landlordwouild not he able to throw a tenant out ofher )ionic. There rutt hie something in thresuggestion of the Lender of the Oppositionflint the Governmient should build homres.This, however, would entail linance, and fail-imar that. tile Governent have to do the next11Q-t tlriiw for the people..x few monthsZigo irrerribers opposite were telling the work-v-s what tl:(,v would do for themr if returnedto power. i Icr is an opportunity for theOpposition to help the worker-s to keep)roof~ cover their heads. It has been said that

oflw wtioni of thie community wilt be penal-.:Hrl in order toi protect another.Rents in Victoria Park that two years ago-were d]own to 12s. or 14s. a week arc to- day27s. 64I.

I tort C. G-. Latharn : Owinur to theprosperity, of the Goxernmentl

Mr. RAPHAEL: If rents have doubled,landlords are quite able to bear a little ofthe burden.

Mr. Huwghei: If rents have doubled, thereis sonrething wrong- with the basic ivage.

Mr. RAi{FAEI.-: There is evidentlyv some-baing r-r rn ith the adjustment of the

bai.wage and I hope the Government willvonsider the miatter. The Leader of theOpposition should appreciate that there arethotisand-i of people still depeirdent on theGovernument for protection. The memberfor Snbiaco, after her fine speeches as towhat she was going to do for the workers.should support the clause.

Mr. CROSS: I hope the clause will beretained. If an amendment of any Act is

nretyrequired, it k~z this one- I admitthat conditions have imnproved considerablysinceio.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.

M3r. CROSS: T agr-ce with the Leader ofthe Opposition that conditions, hare im-proved since 19.33. notwithstandiar whichi acertain section of the comimunity is still un-able to meet its rental obligations. Tt is nottrue that the Bill places on the landlord theonusq of finding a house for unemployedtenants. The paient Act places a definiteonus on the tenant, as members will see ifthey read Section 4. 1 hare on numerousoccasions gone before the magistrate withrespect to protection cases, and, after ire hassatisfied himself as to the bona fides of theapplicant, hre has generally made a satis-

fac-turY adjustment. This clause is verynevessary for the lirotei-tion of people whohare contracted themselves outside the Act.Only yester-day I learned of a muau who hadbeen calledi uj0fl suddenly to find £10 forarrears of rent. He had fallen into arrearsowing to the sickness of sonic of his childreu.Throug h nie lie offered to pay the landlordso much in cash, and half-a-crown a weekotf the arrears, but the landlord refused theotter on the ground that the mnan had surfi-cient furnriture to rmake up the amountowing. Ultimately, however, hie agreed toaccep~t 5s. a week off the arrears. This uin-fortunate tenant (-art et rio ielief fromi thecourt because he has contracted himself outof the Act. Only the most difficult cases,and those affecting the most unscrupulouslandlords, ever conic before the court.

Mlr. Thorn: Are there rio unscrupuloustenants?

Mr. GtIOSS: I do not clam that ever~ytenant is above suspicion. The fair landlordhas nothing to fear from this clause, hut itwill undoubtedly afford protection to peoplewho at present have nothing on which tofall back. At present it is possible for abailiff to seize from a tman the whole &l his,furniture, leaving htint without any- lossies-siom whotever. In nmak-ing their inventoriesbailiffs arc also apt to incelude many moreg-oods, and chattels tin they are entitled to.

Mr. NORITHI: I sin1 afraid this c-lause islikely to penalise an unemployed tenant sothat lie will irever get arty house iii whichto place Iris family. Landlords are charyabout letting tlreir houses to tenants whohave no mecans of support. Wh 'y shouldlandlords subsidise unemnployed people anymore than the grocer or butcher shouldsubsidise thenit ? The trades people dog-et sornietlrirrg from tlte unemploymentgrarts. but the landlord gets nothing-.A far hetteriarrangvement would be forIre Marquis-street authorities theinselves to

find thre rent in east's of this kind.What the clause proposes is merely "tpass-ing the buck." Those who have followedthe ease of the smaller landlord during the-depression know that his ownership hasbeen highly precarious, and that hie Irasperhaps lost as much as any other sectionof the community.

Mr. HUGfES: The clause raises thebroader question whether there should riotbe a general law to prevent contracting outof -ny legislation enacted for people'sprotection. The Interpretation Act should

737

[ASSEMBLY.]

inclutle a general provision that any) eont-trac-ting Out of ally statute is Void,

Hokn. WV. 1). .Johnlsol : Is punlishable. Aveshould punish thle man whto attempts tosecure contracting, out.

Mr, HUGHES: Under stress of circuin-stancs protect in is frequently renounced -

If the clause is passed, landlords; would flo.let premises to a sustenance or reliefwiorker unless sonie private person guaran-teed payment of the rent. The clause, ait stands, merely represents lire-flyinw. Ani-Other place will promptly reject it, andvx-purieur-t shows that this place Will do110 Iiing- further about the matter. 'Il v!erl. intention of thle anienduien issound.

liIon. Ir. D). JTohinsoni Contraciting oittrt'pn-sreents defiance of Parliament.

11'-. HUG-(HFcR: Yes, defeaiting the ob)jeci-.of Parliament. I prefer a g-eneral enact-ment such as T hare suggested. The meni-her for Canning pointed out the root of'thle troul]e in his refereince to bailiff-s. Acreditor suich ais a baiker or a butcher, lincontradistinction to a landlord, must pro-ceed through the( courts, -whicht provideVarious safeguards for thie debtor. 'flllandlord, onl the other hand, can step inistraighlt away. On the whole, however,landilords hla%:( benl fail- to relief andi sus-tetiuullee wrrer,:. In FEast I 'erili the land-lord- have carried their slhare of ihe de-pro-iou very well. Oeansionall-.y of course.one encouinters the landlord who Wants hlispouind at flesh.

mlr. cross : rhat is thle laindlord we mustlec2ilate for.

-Mr, HU(GIi S: Yes. Uf a landlord letsUi house anti goes without, his rent fill- along time, lie ber-s an undue share of thedepression burden. Unider- fte parent Acet,howver, there is provision For applicationto a magistrate, who decrdes such a easeonl equlitable princeiples . T do0 lnt believetherie is one mnember af thev Chamber whoexp)ects this clause to hevoine law. If itdid, thle alverage landlord woulld insist Oii-1 illde1)endiltt zla ra utr for varlteont of

the rent, failing which the landllord. espe-fciliv the richl landlord,. woul allow thepremiises to sztand empty. NO memiberwfiild support a proposal cnmpelling land-lords; to let idle proiseis to any' tenantronung along. The only real remedy' is tofx rents bylw. 'We ca9n IO thlis loclly, as95 per enpt. of our buildig masterials are

produced locally. Thus wve could overcomethe housing shortage, and so obviate the(need for this provision. I supp)ort theclause as part of a general lprinciple to beadopted as early as possible, preventingpept'le from contracting. themselves out ofan; - law passedI by Parliauneet for theirJ)r-otection.

flon. W. D, JOHNSO'N: Unless we passtime clause, the Bill itself is useless. Whatis thle good of convey ing to the public thatParlfiament seriously passes a mleasure toSetnfl certainl end(.s and then for Lis to acceptthe assurance of the Leader oC the Opl'o-sitionl that the clau11se uinder. diselissionl willlnt aIpply hIecause Of. contracting- out?

lin.C.Cl La thami: I't would leave thlep osi tion Jt( as it hmILS beei fmo r t he pastl six

V aI's.1 nit. AV. 1). JOHNSON: Tr Conltravting,

not ha linbeciome more, extensive, it is merely'NI ieanise it is tolerated. I am astonished thn'tthe Leadler of thle Opposition should seni-on,].% moinnlee that lie would supplort thle

sond readiliig of the Bill, but lhe was oil-hosel to tihe clau).se beca-use of thle inmberofT ins-tanlcs of contracting- out,

.i-h oi. C. G. Lam Iaim : I said the clausewould nt achieve tilie piirpos~e of the Mrinis-ti-i.

I lou. AV. 1), JOH11NSON : The ]lionl. umei-lier '-said (1h e a use wo 111(1 iiot a ppl inl a

Iniihurl of inlstances hlevause ot contractimrttit,] anI could nub' assume from his re-

marks, blia tlie agreed with the(, practice thatha--; grmii till. I submit that lie mjust hanveIi ci ;t 11 l-ot ite w ri i lit inht-ad need suechlogisi at ionl.

Hon. C. 0. Litlai 1 d]idl int introducei.

lieul. W. 1). JOl-INSON: The hon. maein-he-i's Goverinmetnt did. Evidently theyv dillpot M-iiou 'N-.y in tend to pr-otect tenlanltsag~ains:t uinfaimr vctioi hb landlords.

iln. C. G. Lalthant if roiu read Section2AI tiE the Act you Will s;ee that special pro-Vision was lmdeL thalt it Would apply only toinstailees to thait date.

lon. WV. 1). JOHNSON: Since tllen thlepractice of conitnietiug out has been per-nuitted to gtow up. Arc tlie people to takeParliamnt seriously? Do wenot intend toem: torpv- legisla.tion chat wve pass! At-e wpinertlyv to pass legislationl setting Out thatire des;ire! to pratect sonic people and thenallow contracting out ? Are we to alisleadthe( pteopile inito helitring that stch- le~rislation is effect ire and Will not permlit land-

[22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.]

lords to do such things as wvere detailed bythe mneirher for Canning? Surely it is notne~cessary for uts after passing legislation, tointroduce a further measure with the sameobjet in view and setting out that onl thisoccasiont we reallyv mean it and do not intendIn allow the law to be evaded.

M1r. Hughes: I canl cite many Acts out ofwhich people contract themselves.

H{owi C, G. Latham: Including some thatthe member for Guildford-'Midland intro-4hiced.

Holn. IV. 1). J0.h-NSON: If the membherfor East Perth knows of such legislation,'he should tell the Committee the facts.'What i the good of passing a law whenpe ople ranl contract themselves out of it?It has been suggested that unless, we adoptcertain steps, the sustennce workers, and thelilooier (lasses will lie unable to obtainhomeis. I ani not alannued about that. Wes houl d not past; the Bill without the incu-Sion of the clause under discussion, and if,as a result, the sustentince workers cannots-ecure homes, it will he for Parliament toprovide them with homes onl a wholesale scale.The Landlords have not suffered specialpenalties as the result of the period of die-pression; every section of the conununitYhad to can- ,v the burden of the depression.if the clause is not to be0 inchided, let usatha.ndou the le-gislation altogether.

I-ot). C. G. LATHA It: If time member forGuilrlford-Midlamd had an or neiom-v at all,lie wvould appreciate the fact that tlue Actpassed in 1030 for the relief of tenants,purc-hasers and mortgagxirs. was emiergencylecvislation, introduced at the samec timec aswve dealt with interest, rents, iortemigers'rest-iiefiomis anti so onl. That leglationapplied onl iy to that period. We affordedporotection to all those people who founidthemselves in difficulties at that time.

1Mr. Cross;: Thle part-tunte workers are stillin difficulties.

lion. C. G, LAT.HAM-N: That problem wvillsolve itself next month. The Mlinister forl-mploynment said that everything would beall right with the parttinme workers inOctober.

Mr. Wilson: Hie did not.ifon. C. 0. LATHAM: He said there

wonuld he fmrllthnc work iii October.The M1inister far Mlines: That is just the

sainc sort of exaggeration that you arealways making use of. He did not ZnV anyv-thing- of the sort.

The 'Minister for Emiployment: it was notall exaggeration, hut merely an untruth.

Hon01. C. G. I1ATHAM1: We will refer to"Hausard'

The Minister for Mines: Refer to whatyoLL like; you will not find that s tatement.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I must ask theLeader of the Opposition to confine his ye-nmarks to the clause.

Hon. C. G. LATHAUNl: We are gooing& tofind homes for the people and the reason weare doing that is liecause they cannot affordto pay rent. The statenient made the othernigylmt when a certain amiendmient was movedto the motion for the adoption of the Akd-dress-in-replyv was that the Government -weregoing to do something in Octeomer, presum-ably when the Government-

'I'he CHiR'MAN: That has nothing to dowith the clause. I miust ask the Leader ofthe Opposition to keep somewhere near thlecluse.

Hon. C. G. IjATiIAM: I ant doing so in])oiutingl out that the Glovernment's actionwill eln*iate the necessit 'y for this legislation.Section *24 of the parent Act of 1930, -whichis to he repe-alel1 by Clause 2, read;; asfollows-

TPie Parties to any conltract ma1de Or enteredlinlto atter. the dlite of the eominmmklcaeineatz ofthis Act mnar, exclude the Operation thiereof is1st wrenl t hiemselvesa : Im tis aAct shall he, riper-a tire am ii 1 a cc effect mm at ithstanading tilie tv)mimiof aimY ontract mnicl oi ii (tereil intu, befor-esuich d:,tc.

That was; purposely put into tliv Act sothat People who entered into :n contractwould enter into it with a full knowledge thatit was to mneet the eniergeui- that existed atthme time. Newox, six years afterwards, ThleMinister wants uls to cancel aill thosec -onl-trmcts that we by Act of Parliamment permit-ted those persons to make-. while we garethem power under Section 24 of the Act tocontract themselves out. the memiber forGuild fo rd-.Nidiland now tells us this is sonie-thingr new. It is not new at all.

Mr. Cross: We made a mistake when weassisted in havimng that put in.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM. Certainly thme lion.imber supported the sec-ond reading, but I

do not think that clause -was raised until ayear or two afterwards. All1 the mnenbers ofthe House were anxious to support thatlegislation, because it was quite new at thetime. But today members oppoite say thereis still a necessity for this legislation. There

740 [ASSEMBLY.]

may be stilt some necessity, but it is very Hion. C. G. LATHAM: Conditions areinw~h less than it was in 1930.

Mr. Cross: This does not actually protectthem, for the ,y have to go before a mnagis-trate. Read Section 2..

lionl. C. G. LATHAM: I do not wish toroad any of those sections. We are now onClause 2, which reads-

l'verv contract or a gioemeat, wlhetlierimadebeftire or after the commiencenment of this Act,

wivl, purports it) abrogate or prej udiciallya ffect the rights of any. tenant under the pro-si inls of this Act, shall be ab~soluteIly void illsolar as it a brogates or prejuiiriiallv affectssia-i rights.

And the honl. tiie tier speaks on this clausefor ten or 15 minutes and says it has somereflerenee to repudiation! No wonder mis-und' Ierstanin ligs ar ise in this Committee. Iin surpise that the memtb er fori GuilIdford-

11i! laud should make out that this is some-thing new. The unfairness of it is to askatn Individual to assume responsibility forproviding homes for people who cannottill itri to pay rent. I 50' if we have reachedthat stage, let the State do it. There can-nol be muanyi cases, for the -Miniister saidtherec were onily 12, or one a month, g rtante.biA year.

The Minister for Mines: Mlany morewould have been granted if they had notsigned that agreement.

Hon. C. 0. LATIAM: I do not knowwhether the Minister is in order in pre-tending tha~t lie knows what was, in themind of the magistrate who tried the cases.Has the Minister no confidence in themiagistrate?

The Minister for Employment: The Min.ister for Mines is oly suggesting that heknows what is in the azreements.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM: I know that inevery mortgage there is a provision thatpersons shall not avail themselves of trans-ferring to the miortgAgors' relief fund.Every one of them carries that red herring,and it applies to all leases and even toweekly tenancies. But if we are going toput thiis through, what are we to do ifpeople say they will not provide homesfor sustenance workers? Arc we going tointroduce legislation to make them take inthe sustenance workers? Tt is onlyv fairto ask the Committee what we are goingto do if those people refuse to be beniefac-tore to the part-time workers.

The Minister for Employment: Did vonhave the same difficulty?

totally different now. At that time it wvascosting us a large sumn of money to feedthe unemployed.

The M1inister for Employment: It hascost us more than it cost you to find workfor them.

I-on. C. G. LATHAM: If the M1inisterhad fonde himself in our posit ion, lie wouldhave been far less successful. It is all verywell for the present Government to talki,whien they have three millions more perannum to spend than we had.

The Minister for M-\ines: Now make itthree times more!

liIon. C. G. LAT1lIAM: The revenue Forlast yeaIr w-as over tenl millions.

The CHAIRMAN: The lion. membermust get back to the clause.

Bon. C. G. LATIAM: kil I not onlthe clause? It is a question of providinghomes for people without homes.

The CHAIRMKAN: There is nothing hereabout £3,000,000. I have given the Leaderof the Opposition a good deal of latitude.

li-on. C. G4. LATIHAM: If we pass thislegisla tion and then finud thiere are no hollesfor the workers--

Mr. Cross : We ,ll] I have to build somethen.

Honl. C. G. LATHA2[: If I could get thatfrom the Minister, it wvould satisf ' me.I am afraid we are not going to do whatwe want to do, and we are certainl y notgoing to make it any easier for those un-fortunate people. I move an amendment-

That in line I of proposed Section 241whetber ie striib ot. :,ad in, line 2 the

words '"'or after'' he struck out.

This will not interfere with past contracts%:it will affect only future contracts.

Mr. -McDONALD: I, like others, an, an-xious to see something done to assist thosewho, through no fault of their own, arein difficulties with their rent. If the Min-ister would bring down a proposal to liber-alise the relief funds, in order to enablethe Government to make some grants inaid to tenants who are temporarily in diffi-culties with their rent, I would support anysuch proposal. But what is now beingproposed under both the clause andthe amendment of the Leader of theOpposition is to bringr the landlordssa a class hack to the position they occupiedin 19.30. The Act stated that landlords, inrospet of ny contract of ternnc rmde

(22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.1

after 1930, would have a free hand- Theycould provide that the restrictive conditionsof the Act should not apply. The sameprinciple was observed in all our emergenceylegislation under the Mlortgagees' Rights Re-striction Act. The parties had comipletefreedom to make their contract without beingsubject to the restrictions of the parent Act.The samte thing applied under the FinancialEmergency Act which r-educed the rate ofinterest by 22y/ tier cent. Any person mak-ing a contract reg-arding. property after1931 when the parent Act was passed couldstipulate any rate of interest he liked. Inother words with regard to our emergencylegislation, Parliament told the people thatthe restrictions would apply to all existingcontracts, but that in future there would befreedom of contract, because it is contended,rightly or wrongly by some people, thatfreedom of contract is ultimately for thebenefit of the community, and undue restric-tions of contracts are ultimately to the pre-judice of the people. Last year one pieceof legislation passed out of existence-thatrelating to reduction of rents, together withother legislation reducing salaries andwag-es. If we are to be consistent and passthis clause we must abrogate all the con-tracts made with regard to sales of landand houses and mortgages since 1931 whichdo not comply with the Mor-tgagees RightsRestriction Act: we should provide that con-tracts mnade by people involving more inter-est than was originally allowed should besubject to revision; we should re-enact theReduction of Rents Act; and we should re-enact legislation providing for cuts in CivilService salaries, Parliamentary allowancesand wages. We cannot bring back one classof people to the emergency legislation re-strictions unless we bring the -whole lotback. After telling the people for six yearsthat they were free to make contracts forthe letting, of houses without being subjectto this legislation, we arc now invalidatingall the contracts that we told them theycould lawfully make. We are dealing nowwith something more than this Bill: we aredealing With a principle, and if we are toimpose restrictive conditions on one class ofpeople, to be logical we must impose themon all classes. In -reply to the member forVictoria Park who said that rents had risenfrom 145-. tq 27-. or 28s.-

Mr. Raphael: 27s. 6id. I said.Mr. -MefONALD: The "Official Year

Book'' for 1935 at page 54 gives the aver-

ag-e weekly rent for four and five-roomedhouses in Perth. It states that in 1930 theaverage rent was 19s. 7d., and by the middleof 1935 it had fallen to 15s. 9d.

Mr. Cross: You should see the hovels youg-et for that amount,

Mr. Raphael: The City Council has con-denined those 1.5s. 9d. houses. Why don'tyou go into practical matters?

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The memberfor Victoria Park must keep order

Mr. Raphael: I want the truth to be told.Mr. Mc~fDONALD: The bon. member can

deal with that under the motion for a hous-ing, comnmssion.

Mr. CROSS: I hope that members willretain the clause. There is a certain elementof truth in a number of the statementsamade by the member for West Perth.

Hon. C. G. Latham: A certain element?It is all truth.

Mr. CROSS: But what We arc actuallyseeking in this Bill is protection for thosepeople who are in a most invidious position.The landlord is still getting the protectionwhich has come to him from the M1iddleAges under the bailiff law, under whichlie can take his pound of flesh without anyorder from the court. All we seek is suffi-cient protection for the tenant so that thematter may be referred to a magistrate forhis decision. The landlords are raising theirrents, and then putting in bailiffs to collectthe increased amount. The Leader of theOpposition does not know what is happen-ing. If he had seen -what I have seen, hewould not hesitate to support the clause.One matter to which we shall have to giveconsideration is the power of a landlord todistrain for rent.

M-Nr. RAPHAEL: The member for WestPerth has quoted figures from a publication12 months old. Twelve. months ago theLabour Bureau was inundated with applica-tions for work from carpenters, bricklayers..j1oiners and painters . buit today it is impos-sible to pick up one artisan there. In thes;tressful rears gone by, men were workingFor lower wages than thy are receiving to-day. For the hon. member to suggest thata four or five-roomed house may be obtainedin Perth for 15s. 9d. a week is ridiculous. Atwo-roomed. cottage in the hush at VictoriaPark, one of the worst hovels, costs about12s. a week, and in the better areas a five-roomed brick house costs 25is., 27s. 6id. or 30s.a week. In bad times landlords -were gladenough to alow men on part-time work- to

[ASSEMBLY.]

Occupy houses for 12s. or 14s. a week. Themember for WVest Perth suggested that land-lords in Perth, rathepr thanl reduce shoprents, would keep themn empty, but deprecia-tion occurs when premises arc vacant. Par-hiaincu should at once consider the powergivenl to landlords to distrain on a tenant'sfurniture and effects.

The MIDNISTER3 FOR EMPLOYMENT:The amlendmient admits that the practice ofcontracting outside the Act is wrong in prin-ciple. If it is sufficiently wvrong to justifyour Iprevelntilig it in future, theni we arc Jus-tified in providing that rho unfair agreementsmade during the last six yecars shouild haveno effect. Because Parliament did somiething.wrong in principle six years ago is no reasonwhy we should allow it to continue. If weare going to correct the matter for the futurewe should alho correct it in regard to theunjust agreements forced Upon people dur-ing the last six years. Another argumentagainst the antiudnient is that opportunitywould be afforded for a number of danger-oius practices that couldl not lie controlled.Because the amnildmient would be difficult toenforce, it is deserving of little consideration.The mnemrber for West Perth suggested thatthe adoption of either the clause or theamendment would restore the position thatexisted in 1930. The defeat of the amend-mnent and the adoption of the clause wouldtake us hatck to pie-depression days, becauseit would place all landlords anid tenants onarn eqial footing. Ini pro-depression days alllandlords, had to take thle same measure ofrisk regarding tenants. Thle only protectionwas to refuse tenancy if the landlord thoughtthe conditions warranted that action. Land-lords have that protection today. It hasbeen said that if we release peoplefrom. being forced into signing con-tracting-on t agreements, e,% cry tenantwill immediately be able to takeadvantage of it -and refuse to payrent without risk or suffering- any penalt ,y.The memiber for Canning emphiasised. thatif every tenanLit Were alble to take advantageof the Act, no one would be able to get pro-tection unless hie first proved his ease heforea magistrate.

Mr. Cross: Andi that isi onlY r-onlmion jus-tice.

The 'MINISTERt FOR EMPLOYMENT:Therefore the landlord is well protected.When a tenant applies for protection, themagistrate always takes cognisance of the

landlord s position. If the magistrate is sat-istied that the granting of protection to atenanit would inflict hardship on the land-lord, no protection is given.

lion. C. G. Lathiain: That has nothingv todo dlo iih thle setting as.ide of contracts.

l'le MItNISTERt FOR EMPLOYMENT:I have already dealt with that. Thereare some landlords who refuse to takeadvantage of the contracting-out provisionsof the law, and have no desire to subjecttheir tenants to that indignity. It is not thewvealthy landlord who in many cases declines

to take advantage or the situation, but thosewho frequently use the contracting-out pro-visions are aiurmgst thie more fortunatelyplaced individuals,. Parliament shoilld seethat the landlor-ds are all put on the samneIfotig. Hf we dleprive I hemn of the rightto (:02(1 el tenants to runtract themselves outor, the Act'. and provide that all people whohave done so during the last six years are nolonger tied down to thant agpreement, auto-maticall - all landlords will be onl the sainebasis. Tfhle owners of property may stilldecline to accept as a tenant this, that or theother person, and the tenant who wishes to:get protection will still have the court to goto. The Leader of the Opposition says thatthe Committee shouold not he forced by m neto pa ss t h is clIa use. I hiave no power to f or ceit upon02 any member of the Chamber, andePan 011o1V rely ulpoin the sound judgment andfair-mindedness of the Committee to adopitdie clause.

Hon. C. G%. LATHAM: The member forCanning suggested. that the improved p)osi-tion of landlords 'was such as to justify thepassing of this clause. According to the

S"tatistical Abstract" for the quarter- endedthe 30th September, 1029, the average ren-talfor at four-roomed. wooden house in themetropolitan area was l6s. a week and of abrick house l9s. Sdl., and for the quarterended 3lst December or that year the figureswere U s. and 10s. lid. For the quarterended the 30th June, 1936, the average ren-tal. of a four-roomed. wooden house in theiletrop-olitan area was 14s. 4d., a1 rise of 1di.comipared. with the last quarter;, nd in thecase of brick houses the rental for the Junequarter was 17s. 5d. and for thle Marchquarter 17s. 4d.

\fRaphael: You are reading a lot oftrash and tommy-rot.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM%: These figures areprepared by the Government Statistician,

[22 SEPTnMFJER, 1936.] 743

who dliould hare miore accurate infthani is lposiessed by the hon. menithle M1inister will not accept the cotsituested in my amendment, it isthat wit il tile members behind hi,tend, to force this clause throuli.

Amendment put and a division tol[lit followin2L result:-

Ayes -.

Noes - -

Mfajority against -

AYES.Mr. BoyleMr. BrockmanXin. Cardeil 1iverSir. HillMr. K~eenanMr. Loth..M r. McDonaldAir. Alcbarty

Mr.MASr.Sir.11 r.Mir.Mr.All.,Air.Mr.M r.Mr.Mr.

Mr. SampsonMr. ShearnAir. J1. M. SAl r. Thor,,Mr. WarnerM r. WVattsMr. WelshAir. Corry'

NOS.CoronlerroossDoustFoxHawrk.Heaney

HolmanHugh".JoasoL.ambertMarshallMiliington

Ayss.Mr. PatrickMr. North

Mr.M~r.Mr.M r.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.

MunleNeedhamrNuisenRaphaelRodorediF. C. ..Tonki nTroyWisewithersWilson

PAIRS.

NOESIMr. WilleockI Mir. Collier

A uiendiaimrt thus negativ'ed.

Clause put and passed.Clause .3, Title-agreed to.

Bill reported without amiendinthe report adopted.

BILL-TRADE DESCRIPTIONFALSE ADVERTISEMEN'

Ill Commuittee.

Mr. Sleeman in the Chair: tilefor Employment in charge of the

Clause 1-ag-reed to.Clause 2-Definitions:

Mr. WATTS: I move an patentThat in tile definition of ''Goodsq'proelainition ' be struck out, anad

toh ' insetrted ii, lieu.

In my view. governmient by proeis not to be encouraged. A regliill that k, needed for altering thewhen' the Pill has become law,.

ormation tions are subject to the discretion of eitherher. As Chamber to allow or disallow, but thereapromise is no such power as to proclamations. Oncesevident a proclamation has been issued, it becomies

nt lie in- the law of the land, and neither this Cham-ber nor another place can do anything inl

ken with the matter.The 'MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT:

16 If this were a regulating measure, I would16 probably consider the amendment favour-

23 ably. But the Bill is in the nature of a

7 Policing measure. The powers containedin the Bill are complete and extensive, andall tiat canl be done by proclanmationis to increase the number a variety of

mith goods to which the provisions of the mna-sure may be applied. Therefore the pro-posal to have whatever alterations may' befound necessary made by proclamation is

(Tper~1 erfectly safe. I suggest that the memberfor Kaitannling withdraw the amendment.

Hon. C. G. LATHA?%1: During the lastsession of the previous Parliament a new

Sih principle was introduced, and it is beingSmit gien efec to n te Bil. hflew prin-ciple is that when Parliament has passedan Act, the rovernor-in-Council may amendit. Onl the other hland, the long-established

(Teller.) principle is that Parliament alone shallestablish or- amiend legislation. By procla-

* mation any goods whatever that the Afin-ister chooses to include in the Scheduleshall be subject to the measure. What themiember for IKatanning seeks is perfectlyproper. Under it, Parliament would retaincontrol, because no reguilation has the

ent, and plower of law if it is disallowed hr' eitherChamber. What the clause proposes is no'.democracy, hut the worst form of auto-cracy. I protested agalinst the principle

S AND la st ,year. aind shall protest against it.TS. whenever it is proposed.

Mir. Wither,: You also protested agnindtregilations.

M-Ninister Hon. C. G1. LATHTAM: And quite righltlyBill, too.

The Mlinister- "Or Agriculture: Yogi sailearlier to-night hiat another Bill "-aq auto-era tie.

Iment- Hon. (C. G. LATHAM: So it 'Va-'- ii vonthe wordI take away the rizlit of apuesil. I n~ain oh-

reguln - jedt to I'eguilations. Pa rliaimen t Alld ae-epit tho respronsibility orlolqasiwr, lezislation

Iantion il -I fo.r... that w-ill ena ide thle "onic to know~lotion i- what ic ilei(,ledl. Bv-iua~o~ wh ic18Sc-hedtile have the orc or inw. we crir leLi~l;,:aI onRe,nia - that it i dliffic-ul t for pepl to k now whethler

[ASSEMBLY.]

they are violating the law or not. That isbad enough, but the provision in the Bill isabsolutely autocratic, and Parliament -willhave no control over the position at all, ex-cept by way of the introduction of a Bill toamend the Act to delete this power. Theprinciple of amendment by proclamation iswrong; I do not think, we have the power todo it. I cannot understand members oppo-site, who profess to. be the stalwarts of de-mocracy, agreeing to such a proposal. Infact, I believe the Opposition represent thedemocratic party. I warn Oovernment mem-bars that they will live to regret the day theyagreed to such legislation as that tinder dis-cussion. There will not always be a tabourGovernment in power, and the day is veryclose when the present Government will notbe in office.

The Minister for Agriculture: Let us intothe secret.

Hon. C. G. LATHAM:I You will knowsoon enouigh. If an anti-Labour Govern-ment were in power and legislation were in-troduced embodying this particular auto-cratic power that the Government desir-e tobe placed in the bands of the ExecutiveCouncil, those who are now sitting on theTreasury Bench would be the first to object.

The Minister for Agriculture: But thatcould never happen, because you say youwould not introduce such a proposal.

Ron. C. G. LATHAM. Ami T to live for-ever 7

Mr. Nulsen: Lot us hope not.Hon. C. 0. LATHAN: I amn opposed to

this method of usurpiug Parliamentaryauthority.

MKr. WATTS: Were the Bill not what theMinister described as a policing, measuire. Iwould not be in favour of agreeing to regu-lations in lieu of the proclamation. I realisethat the Minister mnust have some control,and I am prepared to compromise hy askingthe Committee to agree to the provision forregulations. If the clause be agreed to in itspresent fonn, the Oovornment will have therig-ht to issue a proclamation and add to thenumber of articles at present enumerated inthe Schedule. It might he found that theGovernment bad included many items thatParliament considered should not be coveredby the measure. Everything the Govern-ment desire to do can be achieved by way ofregulation, and Parliament will then havesome control,

'The MILNISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT:This type of legislation is new to WesternAustralia and, therefore, we have includedin the Schedule a small number of articlesonly, the idea heing that we shall be guidedby our experiene in administering the Actas to what additional articles shall be addedto the Schedule. The power we Propose touse by way of proclamation will not amendthe legislation, but merely extend its provi-sions to goods other than those at presentmentioned in the Schedule.

Mr. Watts: And that is a most importantpower.

Eon. C. G. Lathamt: But even that repre-sents amending the legislation.

The IMINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT:I p refer to agree to differ from the Leaderof the Opposition's point of view. The legis-lation provides certain power to deal with

gods not truthfully described. If membersof the Committee believe there are types ofgoods that should not be brought under thescop1e of the Bill, let them take the initiativenow and say that those goods shall he en-tirely exempt from the application of thepirovisions of the Bill. That is the logicalcourse to adopt. If Parliament passes theBill, then Parliament agrees that, should ithe found necessary to apply the legislationto goods not mentioned in the Schedule,there shall be no douibt about action beingtaken as sj'uedily as possible.

Amendment put and a division taken wviththe following result-

Ayes . .. . .. 17Noes . .. . .. 20

M1ajority against

Mir. noyleMr. BroekmanMrs. Csrdell-OliverMr' DoustMr. HillMr. HughesM~r. KeenanMr. LathamMr. McDonald

N1r. CoverleyMr. CrossMr. FoxMr. Hawke,1%1r. Ilegneymiss HlolmanAfr. JohnsonMr. MarshallMr. MMllngtonItr. Munsie

Aye.Mr. PatrickEMr. North

.

Arxsc.M Mr. MeLarty

IMr. SampsonMr. J. Md. Smith%Ir. Thorn1Mr. 'Warner11r. Watta

Mr. WelshMr. Doney

(Teller.)

NO s.Mr.

IMr.Mr.MVr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr

NeedhamiNulsenRaphaelRodo redsr. C. L. SrnlfthTonkiniTroyWise%ViohersWilson

(Telr-r.)PA IRS.

Noise.M. Willenek

I Mr. Collier

[22- SEPTEMBER3, 1936.] 745

Amendment thus negatived.Clause put and passed.

Clauses 3, 4-agreed to.Clause 5-Trade descriptions:

The MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMIENT:I move an amendment-

That after ''thereto,'' in line 2, the follow-ing words be inserted:-' 'or to any covering,label, reel, container, or thing used in connec-tion therewith."

The wording of the claiuse might easily beinterpreted to mnean that a trader would becompelled to lace a trade description onleach article in his shot) if the article wereincluded in the schedule or brought underthe schedule by proclamation. There is nodesire to force traders to do what Clause 5at present provides for in regard to everyarticle in the shop. There is no desire tomake a trader conspicuously attach to eacharticle the full name and complete addressof the manufacturer and a trade descriptionof the goods. Obviously, that would becomeimpracticable. It would mean that each pairof socks, each pair of braces, each necktie,each singlet, would have to be treated separ-ately. So we propose that, instead of thatbeing forced upon any trader, it shall besufficient if the name and complete addressof the manufacturer, and the trade descrip-tion, is applied to any covering, label, reel,or container, used in conineetion with theartidle.

Ron. C. G. LATHAM: Are these amend-ments moved by the Minister oni the NoticePaper? I cannot find them. It would be ofassistance if the Mlinister wvould put hisaniendments on the 'Notice Paper.

Hon. N. KEENAN: Before the Ministermoved his amendment-which I have notbeen able to follow-I was resolved to pointout the danerous character of this clauseand the harassing use that it would be putto. In the case of a number of small shop-keepers it would be impossible for them tocarry out the provisions of the clause.Under this provision nothing could beoffered for sale by a small shopkeeper exceptthe full name and complete address of themanufacturer, and a trade description ofthe goods, were attached. And in a subse-quent clause severe penalties are providedfor a breach -of that condition. E'-erv mem-ber knows that numbers of small shops offerartices~ for sale which may have been uno-factured in the neighbourhood, especiallysmall goods sncb as children's frocks, and

things of that kind. Is the trnder to put oileach such article the name and thecomplete address of the manufacturer,together with a trade description ofthe goods?7 I have not fully rasped theamendment, but I beard enough of it toconvince nie that it will not meet my objec-tion in the least. I ask the Minister to allowthis clause to stand over until we can fullygrasp its meaning and consider what willbe its effect. The clause could be made oneof a most harassing character. Nobodyimagines that small shopkeepers could com-ply with these conditions, yet we demandthat they shall do so under fear of a severepenalty. All this is to be done, simply be-cause we are rushing legislation through theHouse. I hope the Minister will allowv theclause to stand over until we can considerwhat its effect will be on a largesection of the community. The amend-mieat, as I read it, wvill not have anyeffect at all on this offensive provision.

Mr. MeDONALTI: Every member willbe willing to support the Bill withthe intention of ensuring truthful adver-tising and making certain that the c-us-tomer gets what he pays for. The generalpublic also would gladly support this legis-lation. Nevertheless I join Nvith the memberfor Nedlands (Hon. N. Keenan) in sayingthat Clause 5 is most alarming. When thisBill was read a second time I spoke to people. considered to be representative of the re-tail traders of the State, and while I foundthem all behind the Minister in his endeav-our to ensure that the customer was pro-tected and that representations concerninggoods offered for sale were truthful, theywere alarmed at the difficulties and the ex-pense which might be involved by this clause,an expense which would ultimately be borneby the consumer. The Minister, in movinghis amendment, acknowledged, in effect,that the clause as originally drawn wouldhave been largely impracticable and un-workable. The amendment requires still moreconsideration and will not meet the ease atall. Every time a person sells, say, half ayard of calico, there must be attached tothat, under the conditions of the Bill, sonmesort of ticket setting out the name and fulladdress of the manufacturer and a tradedescription of the goods. The amendmentstates that instead of this representationbeing attached to the goods, it may beattached to the container, but that merelytransfers the ticket from one article to an-

746 [ASSEMBLY.]

other. If a manl buys a variety of articlesand they are wrapped in the one parcel, anumber of tickets will have to be attached tothe outside of the parcel, describing thegoods within.

The Minister for Employment: No.Mlr. MoDONALD: The Bill provides that

niames and addresses and trade descriptionsof all the articles in the package would haveto 1)e given. If there were tell articles,there would have to be ten tickets on theparcel. As a matter of fact, it is often veryhard to say who is the manufacturer of,' say,at piece of cloth. Various manufacturers areoften engaged in the production of one corn-modity. The wool and cotton in one pieceof cloth would he produced by differentmanuftacturers, a third would do the assemb-)in,, at fourth the dyeing, and at fifth thefinlishling. Finally, it uoul 4 go to some1%holesale firm in London who would supplythe trade here. Who, in that case, would hethe m~anufact urer?7 Furthermore, I am in-formed that many people of undoubted in-tegrity who import goods do not know themanufacturers. They receive goods with acertain trade name through a certain sourceof sulpply, -but do not know the mnanufac-turers. The Bill provides that a trade de-scription shall be deemed to be applied togoods if it is used, amongst other things, ina catalogue. Traders have prepared] at con-siderable expense, catalogues containing listsof goods, and those catalogues are sentthroughout the country. They will have tobe scrapped. Traders will not be able tooperate onl them until thyknow the regu-lations mnade under this measure. Man v ofthe catalogues are prepared in England bythe people who send goods here. The cata-loguies will have to be sent back to Englandanld rewritten and reprinted to comply withthe conditions of this measure. To carryout the proposed requirements at large firumin the mietropolis would need to ein-citlate thousands of tickets every dayI hop e the Mlinister will consent to postpone

tieclause. We ua ut to get at work~able meca-surei which will not entail unnecessary ex-pensi', because such expense must be passedoni to consume is. The trade should have anlOpl ...rtu oilY to p~resenlt their viewys in ordertoavoid a1 d islocationl of trade.Thle MINi STEIt VOB EMPLOYMJENT:

The objfect is to police thle description ap-lpliid to goods, and to protect the publictlrainst false descriptions and false adver-

iieuanncts, and it is essential that the provi-

sions should be sn fficiently wvide to make thlemeasure effective. It is easy to conjure upall sorts of dillicult nd dangerous situationsthat migh~t arise. I think I could more that)equal thle efforts of members who have spokenin pointing out possible dangers and elab-orating the many serious difficulties whichmight lie imposed upon traders; but I emt-lllasise that we must take complete p~owers,or we might as well leave the matter aloneentirely. Ani existing Act provides for theprotection of the p)ublic against false descrip-tions, but because the powers arc inadequate,the measure has had very little effect. Themnember for West Perth drew some verystrange deductions from my amendment, ifesuggested that it would impose onl a traderthe obligation to put labels on a parcel con-taming an assortment of articles after it beentied up by the shop assistant. My interpre-tation is that the description would apply tothle boxes containing, say, five dozen singlets,or to a roll of calico onl the shelf, not to setp-amate half-yards sold to individual custom-ers. I have no objection to postponing theclause in order that the position may be fur-thjer investigated, but exception could betaken to the statement of the member forNedlands to the effect that this leg-islation isbeing rushed through without giving mem-bers or traders likely to ble affected any op-portulnity to study its provisions.

I-Ion. N. Keenan: Why did not you putyour amendment onl the notice paper?

Holl C. G. Latham: It is unusual for aMinister to bring clown anl amendmreut with-out doing- so.

The M1INISTER FOR1 EMPLOYMENT:I can explain that. If the bell. member con-sults with the memboler for WVest Perth, hewill ascertalin that this legislation has notbeen1 rushed but rather has been delay' ed.

lion. N. Keenan: I find that is so.The MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT:

I accept tile apology. With a view to post-poning further consideration, I ask leave towithidraw the amendment.

Almendment. by lenve. withdrawn.

Onl motion by tlhe Minister for Employ-mnt, further consideration of the clausepostponied.

Clauses 6 and 7-agreed to.Clause S-False advertisements:

lion. C. G. LATIIAM : According to Sub-cliase 2, a statement shiall be deemed to bepublished if it is inserted in a newspaper or

[22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.]

Publicly exhibited in, onl, over, or uinder anybuildine, vehicle or place, or in the air inview of persons passing in any puiblic place,Much of the advertising today is broadcastover the air, and iacre harmi might be donefrom that source than from any other. I askthe Minister to consider the point with aview to providing a suitable amendment.

lfon. 'N. KEENM{N: Sub-clause 1 appearsto be very far-reaching. It deals with anypersqon n-ho pubi~lishes any statement intendedto lpromote the sale or disposal of any realor personal property, which would cover any-thing, or any services.

MAr. Hughes: It aught ap~ply to membersof Parliament.

1'[on. N. KEENAN: I understood we weresetting out to protect the public principallyfrom traders who pass on to the publicgwoods iiim1der a false description, or obtainfront the public money for the purchase ofgoods tinder a false description. Services,however, must mean personal services, con-tracts for work.

The Minister for Employment: Only whenthey arc falsely advertised.

Hon. N. liEk;NAN: Suppose a man ad-vertised himself as being capable of painting

a house.r.- Hegney:- He mnight pose as a solicitor.

Hon. -N. ICEENLSAN: Quite so. Thelaw to-day is able to deal with all thesesupposititious eases. The Bill goes to ex-traordinlary lengths. It is certainly our dutyto protect the public iii every manner thatis wisex, but we shall be going the wrong, wayabout it if we put upon the Statute Booklegislation of this character. I notice thatthis has been taken from the legislation ofVictoria, the most backward State in Aus-tralia. f hope the Committee will not in-dulge inl reckless legislation to accomplishwhat is adniittedly a good object. Theclause, as it is, is likely to cause gralve in-justice.

Mr. )leDONA.ID : ni Biritishi law a nmi. assumied to lie innocent until lie is p~rovedto be guilty. BY this clause, howevor, assoon as it is shown that a person has pub-lished a false statemnent he is liable to heput inl gaol unless lie can satisfyv the courtthat lire i-s nut guilty of the offemucc; set omitin the clause. The principle is an importanturic, and the Committee should consider care-fultx' before endorsing it. Actully theCrimimint Code provides ;)raetieally all1 theawaiirs necessaryv for dealing with the offences

detailed in the clause.

Mr, SAMrPSO'N: The type of persondescribed as a ",go-getter" sh ould be broughbtwithin the provisions of this clause. Mlanypersons will sell land or worthless documentsby means of oral persuasion, and it is diffi-mult to vorlirrt thriml of the offence becauseten, is nlorhing inlrtil I knlow of tw-opeioIple Will) put over X2,000 into sonic worth-les,,s shares, and they do not seem able torecover a single peniny. They investe d themioneY on the word of a mann. f Mnove anaiendnent-

Thatt in subelause 2 A new paragraphi tostand as paragiltpl (d) be added as follos--''Made verbally to any pierson.''

Mr. WATTS: [ cannot share the objec-tions voiced by the memibers for -Nedlanclsand 'West Pert ag-ainst this clause,. Verblstatements which are false, and can ha shownto he false, in a miaterial partiicutlar warrantthe accused being asked to show hie hadgr1ounds to believe they were true. In myexperience, verbal statements are the worstmeans that can be used to induce ill-educatedand nonl-commn~eial persons to indulge inspeculation which is extremely bad for themi.Verbal statements are probably worse thananything one reads in the Pres s or hearsover the radio. They are made recklessly,and when the maker of them "gets awaywith it" sonmcbody suffers.

Amendment put and passed.

Mr. HUEGH ES : An 6hjectiouable part ofthe clause is the tenderness towa9rds niews-papers displayed in Subelause 4. Why thistenderness ? If a newspaper transgressesthe measure, it stands in exactly the sameposition as anl ordinary individual tinderSubelause :i, which gives to the newspaperthe same protection as to any person in theState. The private citizen who offendsagainst the measure canl be criminally'prosecuted by any person. A person mighttake criminal proceedings with a view tocivil proceedings. For suc-h cruimnl prti-ceedings no official consent is required,though that consent is nieeed for i hcprosecution of any newspaper. I wonldfeel sympath 'y for the Minister if he bad tosanction the prosecution of a capitalisticjournal supporting the Government. Ifthere were no safeguards, it could be urgedthat a newspaper might be landed ina p~rosecution by publishing anl ad]-vertisenient acc-epted in good faith andwithout any knowledge of its falsity.The newspaper is Amply protected unrder

[ASSE-MBLY.]

Subelause 3 because the v'ery essence ofthe prosecution is that the party publishingthe statement must have knowledge of itsfalsity. If the -party can show that heacted in good faith, he has a complete de-fence; and that would be open to a markeddegree to newspaper proprietor;, becauseno court would expect the newspaper to beaware of the accuracy of all advertisementssubmitted. So that there shall be no dis-crimination on behalf of the powerful news-papers or of any other section of the comn-munity, and so that everyone shall beplaced on the same footing, I move anamendment-

That Suhelauses 4 and 5 be struck out.

The MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT:It is quite obvious that the newspaper,which is nicreirv the medium for the pub-lication of the advertisement, is on a dif-ferent basis from the individual who causesthe advertisement to be published. Theindividual is the originator of the falsestatement; the newspaper merely publishesit. If the amendment be agreed to, notonly will the older established newspapersof Western Australia find it impossible tocarry on, but the proposed development, onbigger and better lines, of "The Groper''newsN-paper wili be made impossible, too. Ifnewspapers are to lbe made to accept com-plete responsibility for the absolute truthof every advertisement they receive beforethey publish it, it seems to me they willhe forced into not publishing any adver-tisements at all. They could not afford totake the risk. It could easily happen thathalf their advertisements might be falsein some particular. In those circumstancesit is necessary to differentiate betweennewspapers th at merely puiblish advertise-ments that are prepared by other parties,and the parties who actually originate thefalse advertisements. I 'would be willingto mneet the wishes of the member for EastPerth by deleting paragraph (c) of Sub-clause 4 because if the proprietors of )newsp~aper have been warned as to thefalsity of an advertisement that has al-ready been published, that should be suffi-cient. If, in face of that warning, theyshould continue to publish the false state-ment, there should be no further protectiongiven to them, but immediate steps shouildbe taken against them.

MUr. Raphael: How will the racing tip-sters get on?

The M211NISTEN FOR EM1PLOYMENT:It seems utterly impracticable to say thata newspaper proprietor should be held re-sponsible for every false advertisement orfor any advertisement part of which mayhe false, before he hias had an opportun-ity to ascertain the correctness or other-wise of the advertisement. I do not k-nowa great deal about the actual working of' anewspaper office with regard to advertise-ments, but I imagine that frequently theyare received at a late hour and have to berushed through as quickly as possible inorder that they may appear in the nextday's issue.

Hon. C. G. Latham: They have to becareful that news for publication is notlibellous.

The MINISTER FOR EMIPI2 OYA1-NT:That is so.

Hon. C. G. Lathamx: W'hv should not inisame apply to advertisements?

TIhe MINKISTER FOR EM4PL OYMEFNT:I s;uggest it would he impracticable for thenewspaper authorities to sean the wholeof their advertisemients to ascertain if theywvere wholly, or in part, false. The Com-mnittee would be acting more fairly if theypermitted the provision to remain so thatafter the newspaper proprietor had re-ceived -warning and continued to publishthe false advertisemrent, the full force oflaw should be thrown against him.

Mr. HUGHES: The Minister has missedthle point. TLet me cite the position of the.individual who is in juist as bad a positionas the newspaper. The opening words ofthe claulse refer to any person who pubh-lishes or causes to be published. That isquite %vise. The person who causes thefalse statement to he published should hosaddled with the full responsibility, for heshould he responsible for vouching for ifsaccuracy. The cla-use could be amendedto diffrentiate between the personwho causes publication and the -per-son -who actually publishes. I donot profess to know very much aboutnewspapers. T once becamne involved withat printing office and nearly lost the bestpart of £1,000. T was held no) to odium be-cauise T attempted to recover the money thathad been stolen from me.

The Minister for Employment: That is ani-teregting srory, and you may hear moreihnut it.

(22 SEPTEMBER, 1936.]74

Mr. HUGHES: Yes. A newspaper mustaccept responsibility for advertisements inso far as they may be libellous. But itwould lie imposing an impossible task onthe newspaper if we required it In examineevery advertiacment to ascertain the accur-acy of the information contained in it. Aprinter is in eseetly the same position. Ajob printer prints whatever comes his way.It would be practically impossible for himto carry on if he had to stop and make adetailed examination of all matters submittedto him for printi-,g. He ii In the nfor-tunate position that, after doing the job,he sends out thousands of iopies with nointention of repeitfinag the order. Shouldthere be some innccuracy in the publication,he has to put up his defence. So if weshould give this first warning to the news-paper, we should give it also to every personwho causes the publication. If the Mfinisteiswill have the clause redrafted to providefor a warning being given to the personwho caused the publication, T shall ba satis-fied.

The MINISTER FOR EMPLOY'MENT:The ordinary printer who publishe9 a dodgersetting out an advertisement, should beplaced in the same position as a news-paper, because at least they are both in simi-tar positions. I move an amendment-

Thait after '"Printer" in liunc 2 of Subelause4 the word ''or"~ be inserted.

The CHAIRMAN: Already we have anamendment that Subelause I be deleted.

Mr. Hughes: I will withdraw that amend-ment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.Amendment (that "or" he inserted after

"iprinter" in line 2 of the subelanse) putand passed.

The MINISTER FOR EM1PLOYMNENT:It will be necessary to add to my amend-pieat that after "publisher" in line 2 of thesubelause the words "'of any statement"' heinserted.

Mr. AfcDONALD: I suggest to the M3in-ister that he postpone further considerationof this clause. it requires a little moreattention, for Subelause 4 is now somewhatin conflict with Subelanse 1, which providesthat a person may be said to be the pub)-lisher of a statement, whereas Subelause 4,together with the proposed amendment, saw-,the same thing and makes a further pro-visionl. More careful examination should besiven to this.

The MINISTER FOR EMPLOY3VENT:I move an amendment-

That after "Publisher'' in Line 2 of Sub-clause 4 the words ''of any statement" be in-serted.

Mr. HUGHES: If the words "printer orpublisher" be not repeated, the effect of theamendment will not be what the Ministerdesires.

The M1INISTER FOR EMPLOYM)LENT:I agree that those words could very well, berepeated.

Mr. WATTS: I trust the Minister willallow us to consider these amendments alittle further. A while ago we hada reference to the pub lication ofverbal statements being made an offence, andnow it is to be provided that the publisher ofa verbal statement must be given a warningbefore being prosecuted. So, in effect, thatoffender will have to make a false statementtwice before lie comm its an offence. It seemsto me that is not what is intended. The pro-posed amendment is to put a newvspaper pro-prietor and publisher on the same footingas ordinary offenders; but the effect of theamendments will be to put the publisher ofa verbal statement in a better position thanit was intended ha should be in.

'The MNINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT:To protect the point raised by the memberfor Fatanning I ask leave to amend myl)roP~OSed amendment by inserting the word"Printed" between the words "any state-ment."

Mr. MceDONALD: I think we have got intoa fog. We have now transferred to thefourth sub-clause all the persons aimed atby the third sub-clause.

Mr. RODOREDA: It is hard to follow allthese amendments. I would like the Ministerto report progress.

Hon. C. G. LATHA Al: It is difficult to fol-low the amiendments. I see now that we havechanged f rom one part of the Clause to an-other, and we cannot tell what the effect willbe.

l'rogress reported.

BUL-FREMANTLE LITERARYINSTITUTE MORTGAGE.

Second Beading.

THE DEPUTY PREMIER (Hon. M. F.Tiny-M1t. Magnet) [10.12] in moving thesecond reading said: This is a small meo-

749

[COUNCIL]

sure, and I will not delay the House verylong. Fremantle lot 871 is held by theFremantle Literary Institute Inc. solely forthe purpose of a literary institute, and issubject to mortgages to the A.M.P. Societyand the Commonwealth Bank. The insti-tute wishes to borrow £2,000 from the W.A.Trustee Company, partly to pay off theamounts uuder the existing mortgages, andto apply the balance to repairs and reno-vations. As the trustee company, however,will not accept the mortgage subject to thetrust, it is desired that a Bill be passed byParliament to enable the mortgagee, in theevent of foreclosure, to take over the landfreed from the trust, Members Will recallthat similar legislation to tbis has beenpassed by this Parliament from time totime in respect of other institutions. TheBill will give the institute power to borrowmoney on mortgage in accordance with itsrules, subject to the consent in writing fromthe Governor for the following purposes:-Repayment of moneyv previously borrowedand payment of interest thereon, and thepayment of the cost of maintaining, reno-vating, altering, enlarging, rebuilding- orre-placing of any of the buildings, and thepurchase of furniture, fittings, books, etc.The Bill sets out the powers and provisionsin the mortgage, including power to themrortgagee to sell or lease the mortgagelands or any part thereof in ease of de-fault. It also provides that any such pur-chaser or lessee shall hold the land free andabsolutely discharged from any trusts.There is a further provision that the onusof scertaining that the provisions of thisAct or the rules of the institute have beencomplied with in regard to any mortgageover the lands shall not -rest on the mort-gagee. The provisions of the measure applyto moneys borrowed before the com-mencement of the measure. No borrowerWould lend money unless the property werefree of the trust so that action could hetaken in the event of foreclosure. There-fore it is necessary that the premises shouldbe freed from the trust in the event oftheir having to be disposed of. I move-

That the B3ill be now read a second time.

On. motion by Mr. Sleeman, debate ad-journed.

House adjourned at 10.17 p.m.

legislative Council,Wednesday, 23rd September, 1936.

Absence of President ............ ...Question:; Pastoral areas, dmougbt, merino 'ewes farbree ig .. .. .. .. ..

Leave of abgs .. ... ....Bllis: Wool (Draft Allowance Prohibition), 2P.

Tenants, Purchmasers and Miortgagors' Relief ActAmendment, IlB............

Adlourament Special............

PsolI750750761751

756756

DEPUTY PRESIDENT-ELECTION OFHON. J. CORNELL.

The CLERK: It is my duty to announcethat the President of the Council, Sir JohnK~irw an, is absent from Pertb on publicbusiness, and it is therefore necessary foryou to elect one of your number to fill theoffice, perform the duties and exercise theauthority of the President during suchabsence.

The CHIEF SIECRETARY (Hon. W. H.Kitson-West) : I move-

That the Hon, 3. Cornell be elected to fillthe office,' perform the duties, and exercise theauthority of the President during the absenceof Sir John Kirwan.

Question put and passed.

[[Thle Deputy Speaker took the Chabr.]

QUESTION-PASTORAL AREAS,DROUGHT.

Merino Fives for Breeding.

Eon. E. H. ANGELO asked the ChiefSecretary: In viow of the serious losses ofstock in the pastoraL areas, caused bydrought, and the consequent difficulties thatwill be experienced in stocking up when itbreaks, will the Government consider theadvisability of taking steps to discourage oreven prohibit the slaughtering of mnerinoewes of ages suitable for breeding?

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: TheGovernment arc particularly concerned aboutthe inevitable dislocation which will takeplace in the pastoral industry consequentupon heavy losses of Merino ewes during thepresent unprecedented drought. TheGovernment will dio everything in theirpower to discourage the unnecessary slaught-ering of suitable breeding stock but practi-cat difficulties prevent prohibition.