Tactics Discussions Archive 2007

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 01:00 pm: Edit

Recently I got to watch a NK semi, The_Hood Fed vs. All_Ones ISC. The_Hood used his "slow relentless advance" tactics, and ended up blowing the crap out of the ISC -- which I think is considered a pretty tough matchup for the FED. At first, I was one of the ones crying foul at this approach to SFB, but after the discussion played out on here about its legality, I was swung to the side of considering it ingenious, and also wondering how it could possibly work on a consistent basis.

Now this is from memory, and from popping in & out of watching the game, so my apologies to both players for the inaccuracy, but this is the general gist:

T1- I think the Fed started the turn at speed 16, then changed down to 8, then down to 4 by the end of the turn. The ISC didn't want to waste the PPD on big chunks of reinforcement, so launched his EPT at around range 10 and turned out.

T2 - Fed speed 4 all turn

T3 - Fed goes up to speed 12 for part of the turn maybe?

T4-T5? - I think more of the same, until the Fed somehow manages to get a range 2 shot on the ISC's #1 on imp 32(with a hack n' slash, as 4 ph-1's and 2xph-3's would be ready to go impulse 1 of the next turn).

After seeing these tactics work against a number of very good captains....I'm wondering "WHY?". How does a speed 4-12 Fed get a range 2 shot? How do you not run him out of wild weasels or obliterate his shields on this slow approach? How do you get cornered? Do players just get frustrated, and suicide-impale themselves on his weapons?

I've flown against The_Hood a few times, and he's beaten me up pretty good most times..but as far as I can remember, he had pretty standard speed plots rather than ("slow relentless advance"). I know that The_Hood is very good, but so are a lot of his opponents, and I don't see how this tactic can work so consistently against so many good players.

Anyway, my thoughts on beating the (ingenious) "slow relentless advance", and I hope other people chime in:

1. Be patient & plan for a long game -- battle of attrition. Draw out his resources (WW's and such). Use envelopers/HBs whatever you got to avoid reinforcement. Pick the shields you fire on. Don't get frustrated and do rash things.

2. Keep your speed up, dictate the pace of the game. I'm not saying keep your speed slightly higher than his, I'm saying a lot higher...standard battle speeds. Do not get pushed into the corner by an opponent that is moving speed 12 or less.

3. Use your weapons. Don't hold back every turn just because he has reinforcement. He can't reinforce against everything you send..and you need to be doing some shield damage all along.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 02:03 pm: Edit

4. Surf shield boundaries to get around his brick. You have the movement precedence, use it.

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 02:34 pm: Edit

=== Well, I for one get very frustrated/bored/whatever and usually quit or impale myself. Jason seems like a nice guy, but his tactics remind me so much of the boring SFB days of early 80's where everyone (around here anyway) went less than 10, reinforced, and duels took 10+ turns/5+ hours.

I'm here to play a game and have fun. I'd like it to be over in 2-3 hours, win or lose, and go on to the next game. I just don't have it usually to get bored/fall asleep as i do when facing the 'crawl' tactics.

I MUCH prefer having fun to winning, and win or lose, playing 'crawl' is SO far away from fun i just about refuse to do so. Perhaps it's a bad attitude, but it's mine. I'll often leave those type of games (conceding if necessary) and go find someone else who wants to play and have

fun as opposed to bore me to death.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Daniel wrote: >>After seeing these tactics work against a number of very good captains....I'm wondering "WHY?". How does a speed 4-12 Fed get a range 2 shot?>>

Dunno--didn't see the game. That being said, it seems like simply launching plasma a lot should do fine--you can likely easily skirt in and out of R10 while launching envelopers. Yeah, the PPD will run into rienforcement on T1 or T2, but you might as well fire it--it is likely to hit some unrienforced sheilds (and inside R15, it is doing, what, 20 damage spread around? The Fed is unlikely to have *that* much rienforcement). T1 close to 15, fire the PPD, and launch an enveloper from R10. T2, launch an enveloper from R10. T3, fire a PPD from 15.

T4, launch another enveloper from R10. He is going to lose shields and weasels, I'd figure, pretty quickly. If he starts to rush in, he can eat some F torps over a turn break.

I mean, it is certainly possible that I am underestimating the amount of rienforcement and phaser damage the Fed can use on plasma, but I'd think a slow Fed would likely run out of sheilds before he got to R4.

-Peter

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 05:20 pm: Edit

And at the same time if he weasels come into R4 and fire 6 p1s into the shift then get outa R8 before his fire control becomes active(note saying this with an inbound torp at r1 or 2 to him. Or even R8 and get some damage on him(with 2 shift its as firing from R15).

If he goes down to spd 4 PPD plus phasers at range can add more damage. Not firing at an oppnent seems to be a poor way to win.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Heh--in the name of not totally talking out of our collective asses (mine included :-), Brook or Jason wanna tell us how the game went?

Thanks, -Peter

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Cadet Stimpy decribed the game pretty much spot on, Turn 4 my plot was Sp-8 down to Sp-4 after three moves, then up to Sp-12 with Res/Warp on about Imp 21. On turn 4 I think Brook was expecting me to go Sp-12 or 14 (which would mean an almost certain R4 shot even if the ISC went max speed so with that in mind Brook went slower with power in HET and Reinforcement preparing to slug it out with his PPD and 4-torps but the decel by the Fed to sp-4 caused 2 torps to be weaseled. Even so if just one of the Photons had missed I'm sure Brook would have continued the battle.

To me the most fun I have with SFB is experimenting with different strategies and playing tough battles against class players like Peter and Ken. What I don't find fun is players who continually moan about bad dice, players who don't try to win because they can't be bothered, and players who quit games when you don't use the tactics they want you to use.

Cheers,

-Jason G (The_Hood)

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:43 pm: Edit

=== Agreed that Peter and Ken are classy guys. ;)

Almost everyone complains about dice now and then..

Module T states that all players are expected to engage the enemy aggressively. I play by that, i die by that, and I Judge by that. Crawling around the map, well, the only thing LESS aggressive than that, is those who park and or retro all the time, another kettle of fishies.

Obviously a difference of opinion as to what that means happens.. I can live with that.

Cheers as well.. Scott

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 11:41 pm: Edit

Well, in a tournament setting, I'd expect my opponent to use every available tactic within the rules that he thinks will give him the best chance of winning, and I'm going to do the same thing.

In a pick-up game, I might get a little annoyed by my opponent not moving ;)

Didn't mean to open up another battle between Scott & Jason about the validity of the tactic, I just wanted to explore ways to overcome it.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 01:34 am: Edit

"Well, in a tournament setting, I'd expect my opponent to use every available tactic within the rules that he thinks will give him the best chance of winning, and I'm going to do the same thing."

That is how I feel too, and my most enjoyable games are against people who think that way. I like to base my strategy on what I think will give the best chance for victory not what is most fun, to me I'm representing the captain and crew of a starship and I can't think why a crew would rather die for the fun of it instead of trying to achieve a victory?

-Jason G

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 02:07 am: Edit

Thing is, the turtle approach should be easy to beat. However, if you haven't seen it, it could throw you for a loop. I think it is interesting when players explore new tactics. Sometimes an inferior tactic will work very well because your opponent was not expecting it or is not used to it.

I remember flying a Hydran against an Archaeo. I had just faced a Kzinti and a plasma boat, and having spent the last several hours running around seeking weapons, I was so happy to be facing an opponent without seekers, I plotted speed 9 for the first turn.

At the end of the turn, my opponent told me that I was very foolish to have done that, and that I should have been dead. He was basically right - he should have been able to trap me in the web or force me to HET. However, as it was, my crazy plan confounded him and threw off his timing. At the end of the turn, he had a down #1 shield, and my brick had blocked most of his damage. He conceded after a couple more turns.

By Dave Steele (Blackknight) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 07:30 am: Edit

> turtle tactics & other silliness Agreed; sometimes an otherwise "easy" tactic can throw you for a loop. I got clobbered by a Gorn based on the simple fact that *no one* launches all their plasma on turn one against the Fed.

Slide over a little to run out the F's a bit, phaser them a tad, and run through the two psuedo's that's he's trying to corner you with to get him to launch the real enveloper, right? Wrong... :D Happened years ago, but ended my bid for an Ace card that day.

BK

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 11:02 am: Edit

Jason wrote: >>Even so if just one of the Photons had missed I'm sure Brook would have continued the battle. >>

Heh--so you fought up hill to get a R4 shot, took it, and hit with all 4 photons? Yeah, sometimes that happens (the Fed is much more likely to hit with only 2 or 3 photons at R4). That is what happens with the Fed--sometimes you luck out and hit with everything, and other times you anti-luck out and just die. Such is the Fed.

-Peter

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 12:19 pm: Edit

==== I enjoy the discussion, guys. It's fun to compare thots. I am pointed toward having fun, some point toward winning. That's ok. ;)

Interesting, representing the crew of a ship. I'm pushing bits of cardboard (or their electronic equivalents) around on a piece

of paper, so I want to enjoy it.

Since no one is 'dying for fun', why not? I have some of my best games Goofing around in experimentation. Sniper Pig, anyone?

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 01:24 pm: Edit

if you haven't seen it, it could throw you for a loop Yeah, suprises is the way to go if you can. Like when my friend Anders Granström, in the Lyran, rammed my 1st turn Ept threatening a hack and slash on T2:1! He forced me to turn towards him and decide the game on T1 :P

But he LOVES to mess with my mind. Since when he took a dominator to a 600 bpv pick-up I ALWAYS specify number of ships and sc!

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 03:01 pm: Edit

If you KNOW he is going to be slow for a while, why not come to range 8 and use the PPD OL while making a battle pass of some kind?

NOT that I am any good, but still...

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 06:56 pm: Edit

The higher frequency of the "go slow and make the game last longer" tactics is why I don't play tourney SFB any more. I have much better ways to spend 4-6 hours of my time.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 07:03 pm: Edit

I agree with you Michael. The Fed range 8 shot can hurt if he gets lucky and hits with all 4 photons, but it is the best way for the ISC to attack a slow Fed. Using the ol ppd, ppts and Rear F-torps to draw out weasels as well as your real torps you should be able to draw out and kill a reasonable number of his weasels, then turn off and come back on turn 3 for another ol ppd along with some reinforcement of your own to blunt the range 8 strike if he takes it. By the time the fed can get close he should be down a large portion of his shields. If the fed does corner you it is best to have some weasels ready for the ecm shift and go slow yourself at that point. Make him eat torps as he closes, take the range 5 phaser strike on his weakened shields (if you have done enough damage), then weasel when he gets to range 4.

Stephen

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Andy, I am not sure where you have been seeing these tactics. In my 8 games at Council of 5 Nations this year my longest game was maybe 4 turns over 2.5 hours. While there are exceptions, I have not noticed any trend towards delaying

games and drawing them out. Even games where the opponent goes slow doesn't mean the turns have to take an inordinate amount of time. If your opponent is moving 10 hexes or so in a turn the turn should go by pretty quickly. Stephen

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Quote:

The higher frequency of the "go slow and make the game last longer" tactics is why I don't play tourney SFB any more.

I agree with MOOSE. Either you're in a different gaming group than I've seen or you're justifying not playing tourney on something that just doesn't happen that often (in my current experience).

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 08:58 pm: Edit

I've seen it online. Players that would take forever to make a move/decision. On occasion I can understand taking a long time to debate. But every fragging impulse? This isn't often. But it does happen.

Then theres the hide and seek cloaker. Toss a EPT ~r15 cloak if they look to close to r10 come out of cloak only when your opponent is r15+ and go right under after tossing yet another frikkin EPT.

Which is why I follow the non aggression rules religiously. IMO at i128 you've used up your cloak ability w/o being non aggressive.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Kludge - I think he's talking about slow speed (8>4 plots for the turn) not speed of play.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 10:56 pm: Edit

The way it reads sounds more like: drag the game out and maybe he'll quit or die out of frustration.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 11:58 pm: Edit

It's online play, and it's the slow speed plots.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 02:43 am: Edit

I just don't see it. Slow speed plots mean fewer impulses when the situation changes, which should make the turn go faster. While slow speeds can mean more reinforcement, and wild weasels, this is more than countered by the fact that it also means more energy into weapons, and is generally associated with situations where the ships are close to each other. This means damage is getting

inflicted at a faster rate, despite the increase in defenses.

Now, there are tactics that make the game drag on. The EPT/cloak approach was mentioned. Players who take too long to make impulse decisions was also mentioned.

The case where one ship is "turtling" and the other is hanging back, waiting for the turtle to come out of its shell, is another. However, this one is a case where both players share responsibility for the lack of action.

If someone crosses you up by going slow or starcastling, it's perfectly reasonable that you would not throw yourself on his set pike that turn. But the next turn, you should have a plan for taking advantage of his giving up the initiative.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:10 am: Edit

Andy wrote: >>It's online play, and it's the slow speed plots.>>

I gotta reflect what what most folks are saying here--I'm not really seeing it so much in either online play or real life play. I have played a pretty significant number of SFBOL games in the past year or so, and haven't run into any overt number of players who played with slow-speed tactics. The vast majority of games I play run like one would expect (standard battle speeds, eventual slow speed knife fight).

The only games I have played that went an inordinate number of turns in recent memory were one against Jason's Klingon (21 turns?) that started out totally normally but became long and slow likely 'cause I played too conservatively to seal the deal (but really only got to that point 'cause I missed with both my R5 F Bolts on T2, so I was fighting uphill for the rest of the game) and one vs a TKE that was very cloak-tackular, as that is how the TKE works (have I mentioned recently that I hate cloaking devices?)

But in general, games online tend to be just like games in real life, and both tend to involve standard battle speeds and tend to last about 5-7 turns.

-Peter

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Also, the player who is battling a turtle HAS to plan for the ACCELERATION response in addition to the brick.

So just turtle up in return and make him come to you.

NOTE, you can also play the speed around until you get on their tail, just like vs an AUX.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 08:17 pm: Edit

Hey--one of you solid tournament players--there is a slot in the next CL for a "Victory in Space" article, like I wrote for CL#34. Someone who has good notes from a game you won write it up and send it in (Some game from Origins? Stephen can write up the final game from Council of 5?). I think it is a good feature, and if folks can write some up and send them in, they'll presumably keep getting printed.

The descriptions of tournament games are, for my money, the best part of CL, and if people don't write them, they don't get put in. If we can keep them showing up, we can keep them in the CL.

That, and you get a free copy of the CL if they publish it :-)

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 10:27 am: Edit

Hey Peter!

I'd love to do a write up of that knockdown slamfest of an Orion civil war I had with Bret this past Origins and I even have my notes from that game, but it's been half a year already and I can't remember many of the finer details. I'd probably need Bret's help (if he remembered any of it at all) to compose it. I'll email him in a week or so as I'm crazy busy this week. It would be cool if I could get that one together because we really blew the snot out of each other.

I also have all my battles in the Orion TBR from TotalCon 2005 documented, where I made it to the semifinals only to get beat in another Orion civil war by Brian Evans. I wanted to put that up on my web site.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Marcus!

You should write that game up and send it in--they want a 1 page article, but if you look at the one in there, you can see how many words that is.

I think you are the "Victory At" article this issue, so we should probably get someone else to write the Victory in Space for this issue. My initial thoughts:

-Stephen: Could write up the final from Council of 5 or something (I could certainly help with notes from that one).

-Ken: Could write up pretty much any game he has notes on from Origins.

-Bret or Ted: Final game from the RAT y'all won.

-Anyone who played a good tournament game and has notes to turn it into an interesting write up.

Basically, I'm, really hoping *someone* will write one. As I mentioned elsewhere, my favortite part of the CLs are the tournament game write ups, and if we can keep a steady stream of "Victory in Space" articles flowing in, we can make sure that page is always in there. And you get a free issue!

-Peter

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 04:36 pm: Edit

I write up most of the tournament games I play on SFBOL and post them in the topic for that tournament. Unfortunately, doing so makes it ineligable to be submitted since it's already been made available for all to read. And I'm not going to stop writing them up here in the hopes of maybe getting it published in a CL.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Umm, ok?

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 09:00 am: Edit

So other than Gary who doesn't want to do this, anyone want to actually write one of these? 1 page. Free issue of CL. Good stuff. Anyone?

-Peter

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 09:09 am: Edit

I will likely write up our game from Council Peter. Stephen

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 09:17 am: Edit

Yaa for Stephen! If you need any note reconstruction help, drop me a line.

-Peter

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:40 am: Edit

Quote:

So other than Gary who doesn't want to do this...

You aren't correctly reading what I said.

I said I'm not willing to stop writing up my tournament games in these forums in

order to save them for possible inclusion in CL.

I'm not against having anything I've posted here included in CL.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 11:58 am: Edit

Ok. I'm not really seeing how this is helpful to the process of getting an article written (i.e. I wasn't really looking for someone to explain how they didn't want to do something, just really, for someone to say "I'm in!"), but maybe I'm just confused.

-Peter

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Peter.

Gary's point is that by writing them up in this forum it makes those write-ups invalid for CL inclusion as they have been publicly written up at that point. He further states that he enjoys writing them up here as they occur and would rather continue that practice(writing them here) then saving them to be included in a future CL.

I agree that I rather enjoy many CL battle write-ups as well. Allows one to see what others are thinking etc. I especially like the victory at Origins articles and appreciate the detail many include(notably Paul S and Ken L gave really good write-ups as others have as well).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Yeah, I figure that is what he meant, but I'm not really seeing how it is, ya know, helpful to point that out. I mean, like, ok, he likes posting them here, which is good, and doesn't want to stop, which is also good. But then he isn't going to likely write one (which is completely reasonable), and I'm not looking for people to *not* write an article for the next CL (as I already got at least 1400 of those...). I'm looking for someone who *will* write an article for the next CL.

-Peter

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:14 pm: Edit

As soon as I actually win a tournament battle, I'll write it up. Ok, I do generally manage to win one game at each torney, but they're generally pure luck and wouldn't make an interesting read. :P

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 08:31 am: Edit

I have some notes from last Origins, but nothing detailed enough where I could honestly do justice to a real writeup. I can think of some really entertaining RAT battles too from the past, but again insufficient notes...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:18 am: Edit

Well, if nothing else, TotalCon is in a few weeks (which sadly, I can't go to...), so whomever is going and wins or something should make sure to keep some good notes and make sure to write up the final game or something.

-Peter

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:55 am: Edit

So back to the Tseudto.....

Jason pulled this out on me againt my ISC in his Fed. I felt it was a tremendous mistake as the ISC can punish you for going slow, but Jason did a REALLY good job with it. Due mis counting and general suckiness of SFBOL compared to a real map I ended having to burn my HET on T1 to avoid R8. However, once Mr. Hood announces speed 8, the HET is really only a check box on my SSD since battery power is free. (I know I won't need to move more than speed 17 next turn)

However questionable it was, jason did a really good job with it. My 1st 2 ENV did really great at killing his 1st two WWs. He did no damage for the fisrt 3 turns but I only landed 1 ENV (T4) and a few phasers at R8 on his #2. T4 I park and move backwords (some call me "Tim" ) He hits with 3 @R8 but had to use phasers on a fast load to save his #2. T5 I park and put a 6 pulse PPD in him while he crawls towards me and uses his last WW on 2 SS. He takes a few mizia attacks and loses the 360 ph-III and 1 photon. T6 we start at R1, him with a WW out. I try to lure him into shooting by doing a "chuck and duck" with my last Psuedo. Since he has good rear shields and a WW still out he doesn't bite. Jason doesn't want to shoot through a 2 shift so we try to fool each other into firing a few impulses, I finally put 4 ph-1 in him looking for a photon. 11 internals..... no photon (but 2 ph-1). Next impulse he unloads. Hitting with all 3 again and hot dice on his remaining 4 phasers. 72 damage. 40 some in. Kills the other f torp, the PPD, the last 3 ph-III and 1 ph-I. (AND ALL THE BATS!!!!!)

He then conceeds as he has 2 phasers and 3 photons BEFORE he eats the 12 feedback. Next turn I would plaster him with 2 ENV Gs and 5 ph-1, he has no way to avoid them, with no WW and a top speed of 14. (and 3 down front shields)

I think the Tsuetdo can work.... but not FED vrs ISC. BP vrs ISC, sure. You force me to keep speed up with your plasma. Once the Fed slows down the ISC can slow down and reload everything. Heck, I reloaded and launched an F torp in that battle.

I think to beat the Tsuetdo you have to punish him for going slow. That works best if you have things like Plasma. Let him WW. Thats cool. He only has 4.Stay calm and SLOW down. Dip into R8 and dare him to fire.....if he does you can turn

in and overrun him. if he doesn't, skip back out.. or fire and skip out. Reinforce back. Eventually he will corner you if he is willing to eat a few plasma (probebly the Fs). Make sure when he does, you have a plan for it. PARK! Screw it. He wants to chase you into the corner... fine PARK and plant 15 reinforcement on your nose. Make him eat plasma to get R8. its not so hard since he is probably only going 14.

Let the arguements begin!

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:10 pm: Edit

I don't see anything to argue with here. But what the heck is a Tseudto?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Andy,

I'm guessing he meant "Testudo" and it's a typo. The testudo was a Roman defensive formation with interlocking shields, for defense against missile fire. I believe the name was derived from the Latin for "tortoise".

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Larry wrote: >>I think to beat the Tsuetdo you have to punish him for going slow. That works best if you have things like Plasma. Let him WW. Thats cool. He only has 4.Stay calm and SLOW down. Dip into R8 and dare him to fire.....if he does you can turn in and overrun him. >>

I think this is probably key, especially vs the slow Fed--you want to avoid R8 if it isn't going to get you anything but shot, but in any situation where he is moving slowly, you should probably give him R8 and hope he shoots you (and hope he doesn't jackpot). If he does, you can then go and park on top of him and kill him on the reload turn. If he doesn't shoot, you can probably score some phaser damage (hoping you don't find a brick).

As I noted much, much earlier in this discussion, I don't think that going slow with rienforcement and defensive weasel launch is that fantastic of a plan in the grand scheme, but Jason is really good at it, as he is apparently endlessly patient, and has no qualms at all about playing a 20 turn game. Which makes him very good at slow/rienforcement/weasel games, where most other folks eventually decide to do something dramatic in the name of ending the game (see: my recent Net Kill final game where I did just that, and had I been a tad smarter or a tad luckier, I probably could have come out ok in the end).

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 01:24 pm: Edit

I agree with you Larry, but Jason's deliberate strategies force you to change your

mindset mid-game if you don't expect what he's doing at the beginning of the game. This approach caught me off guard against him (different ships, similar idea) this past Origins and it cost me the game.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 01:30 pm: Edit

(double post)

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 06:07 pm: Edit

I did give a few R8 chances, but since it was photons only (he used phasers on F torp) he wisely didn't take them. I say wisely because I am truely a Hydran and heart and would have no issues with driving my ISC with 6 ph-1 and 1 gattling and 2 SS on top of him and blowing his doors off.

I think its a GREAT tactic vrs the Onion. One of the reasons I rank the Hydran/Onion at LEAST 7/3 in favor of the Hydran is that I AM going to corner dodge on T1 if you double both, and if you don't I'm going to come trade with you. Either way I've got all my guns loaded and I can take a punch better than you. I think big reinforcement and ENV quality plasma launches could really ruin an Onions day.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Why do you call the Orion ship "Onion"?

I think it just confuses the people that are trying to read your post. I had no clue what you were talking about until I got to the part about engine doubling.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Orion // Onion controvercy.

I guess I should stop naming my ship Stinky?

(There you go, diss Orions and Bret shows up. The gray beards in the croud all nod their heads. & point accusingly at Larry.)

Hydro vs Orion, 7/3 I disagree. (unless you meant in favor of the Orion ) 1) All it takes is ONE drone hit and the Hydro can't really do any damage from > RA3. 2) Ask Paul Scott the Hydro sucks. Any ship that he thinks sucks, deserves the

title.

In the Orion I regularly decimate people who Sit and Spin. TAC and Envelope is a really good way go get the Orion to turn off then HET around the Plasma ~13 impulses later and come for an over run.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 09:43 pm: Edit

All things considered, agressive slow is not really a new tatic.

I remember seeing Aces do turn 1 corner dodges and then turn 2 TAC in the early 90's.

I do things like 9/4/14 esp in a C turn mode vs BP.

What is new about it is how Jason treats it more like a standard operating procedure. In our current BP & Drone heavy enviroment it might not be such a bad idea after all. I could just see it. Flying neotholian vs BP, opening Speed 10.

The evolution of SFB tatics. Maybe I'll think about it a bit. From Sandy to

The_Sandman to The_Rock to The_Hood.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 09:49 pm: Edit

I agree with Bret, the HYD is not advantaged in this matchup. I rate HYD/ORI even (if anything, the ORI should be favored by a little bit).

Paul Scott beat me convincingly in 2002 with the FFg1f package. Now I will be the first to say that Paul is better than I am, but at the same time I am not exactly chopped liver in the HYD, and my game with Paul wasn't even close.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 10:36 pm: Edit

You are all lunatics.

I'll be honest. Its not 7/3. Its like 9/1. But I wanted to be nice.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Ken,

What did Paul do to you exactly? Remember anything about that game?

Ted

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 07:50 am: Edit

Orion FAVORED against the Hydran!?!? LOL! Sorry, but Paul Scott beating someone has nothing to do with RPS and everything to do with Paul Scott just being really good.

Granted, the FFg1f package is a new twist in the fight (and I lost to either Paul or Norm in that package myself), but given time to analyze the package (it was the first time I had seen it, yet alone faced it), it is far from beatable. The Hydran just has so many advantages over the Orion. IIRC, that was my only loss to an Orion in a tourney.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 08:42 am: Edit

Ted, I can post something later this evening. Paul wrote a very detailed Victory At for his Orion (don't remember which CL). I do remember generally how our match unfolded, but would rather reread Paul's writeup first.

Also, it wasn't just Paul, Norm also had great success in FFg1f (Norm also being one of the better SFB players on the planet). If I remember correctly they developed tactics for FFg1f together.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 09:55 am: Edit

Ken,

Just let me know which CL and I'll read it. No need to take the time to re-invent

the wheel.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 10:14 am: Edit

I've played both sides of the matchup. IMO, the match is definitely in favor of the Hydran. The Orion package makes a difference in the amount of the advantage, but I haven't seen a package that the Hydran isn't advantaged against. The FFg1f is the best package I've seen, but is still slightly disadvantaged in my experience.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 01:17 pm: Edit

I fly both ships and I feel the Hydran is maybe 6/4 over the Orion. And that Orion needs F torps to really be successful. You have to get too close to make photons work well, hellbores will not give you that big initial punch, and don't even get me started on Disruptor or PPD packaes.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 02:22 pm: Edit

I am not following this...Orion advantaged over Hydran?

'One drone hit, and the Hydran can't do damage range > 3' Well, yeah, that's somewhat true, but actually has nothing to do with whether you are facing an Orion, a Selt, or a shuttle. The range 8 damage of the Hydran WITHOUT the drone is pretty dang bad.

'Paul beat me convincingly in 2002' Well, not exactly definitive proof. I played Paul in this very matchup and crushed him with my Hydran in a onlineRA final. (I did lose the same matchup previously to Norm...so I am hardly invincible)

If I am playing the Hydran, I know of no ship I would rather my opponent show up in, except for the current Andro. Orions want to run over the opponent, or they want to get it and get out after doing their thing. The Hydran is uniquely suited to stop ovveruns, even after firing their weapons (p1's and hellbores), because it has fighters, gatlings, fusions, and a ridiculously strong hull. If an

Orion can approach, remove a shield, then do repeated mizia to the Hydran, well, sure, the Orions is going to rock on....but I ain't seeing that happen all that often.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 11:34 am: Edit

The 2nd best Hydran speak the truth. Listen to Tim.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 08:49 pm: Edit

um.

I cleanly took out Pauls Hydro flying Orion, PPg1f. Then again I also killed him in his GiGi when I was in a T-KR.

It could just be that I have Pauls number.

My memory of the Origins 04? Game vs Paul Turn 1: I corner dodge, (0 dbls) He plays middle of the map. I end the turn 35 from far corner.

Turn 2: Both doubles. I go in his direction Sp 31. He turns off with a flat 26 or such. imp 26ish Ra 5, I'm sitting near his 4/3 shield spline. (I think on the outside, because one of his HET options (that he didn't take) would of allowed me a RA 4 perfect Oblique (after turning) my #6 to his #1) He Hets into me. He fires the Hells & 1's into a non bricked shield (#1 I think) Either nothing inside or something trivial. I remember I still had all the Heavy Weapons and the 1's. I fire Phots + 1's into him. (both hit and I get a Hell)

A few imp later ra 0-1 from behind my brick I get 3's + Fusion ra 0-1 into the down shield. (no 2nd Hell) His on side Fusions and gat kill the Brick.

Then next imp off side 3's & 1 into a new rear shield. His off side gat chews at a rear shield; 2 fusions never had a shot.

We ended the turn ~9 hexes apart and facing opposite directions.

Turn 3: doubled 0 or 1, reload and circle. He Tac'd & repaired 2 1's as 3's

Turn 4: I double Both, do the famous Orion Balancing Brick maneuver. (Balance the shields so when the Hell hits all it really does is kill reinforcement. And keep enough real shield + brick in the way that he can't phaser to change the math)

He TACs and launches fighters. I close to RA 4, fire the 1's at the Ftrs and Phots at him. A fighter lived and a phot Missed. Paul held the Hell, he did fire some 1's @ reinforcement

Turn 5: 0 Dbls fix Engines, cruze around @18-19 He Tacs

Turn 6: 0 Dbls fix Engines, cruze around @18-19 He Tacs

Past here it is foggy.

He does get moving again. The whole idea of watching that Orion circle you fixing 2 Shields and a Warp engine each turn.

we did a few more passes at ra 4.

Around turn 10, the judges come over to this 4 hour game, and look at ships. I'm down ~6 warp, he is down around ~11 warp, + weapons and is experiencing fighter shortages. They make noises about time limits, we ignore them.

Turns 12-14 6 hours or so into the game. Somewhere in here he runs out of Forward shields. the judges are making loud noises; time limits. Paul impails his ship on my photons.

Tim Sheely, makes me an offer to fly against his Hydro. Um, tired just beat Paul. Must rest. "Tim Sheely: Pauls mistake was moving turn #2."

I rested the rest of the convention away playing advanced civilization.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Ok, So what; If a half wit slapped Pauls Hydro around with the Orion. Even the best players can have a bad couple of impulses, and I occasionally get dangerous for a couple of impulses.

Put these two together and you have me making a more effective battle pass then expected. This battle pass so unbalanced the match, that Pauls superior tatics and superior ship could not over come my head start.

Paul fighting it through to the bitter end makes me think he thought his ship and tatics could overcome my head start. (Or that he was dreaming that I'd make a big enough mistake, for him to pull his flaming arse out of the fire.)

Hence this fight is also not convincing proof of Orion supority over Hydrans.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 09:22 pm: Edit

The true proof that Orions are superior to Hydros is that thier counters are a spiffy shade of blue which every one agrees is superior to that slimy green that the hydran counters are.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 02:59 pm: Edit

I have a question: What do I do in the TKR against an Orion that conserve his engine doubling? I encountered this tactic on when playing in one of the RATs, and was quite surprised. I am thinking there must be some way I can take good advantage of this.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Non-doubling Orions are very vulnerable to EPT's and R5 phaser strikes.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Not to mention anchors...

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 04:17 pm: Edit

Well, I don't know what kind of Orion I encounter until I does one thing or the other. So I am thinking on how I can best be prepared for any kind.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm: Edit

If he doesn't double go smash him. Don't end the turn close with your attack run incomplete or he WILL double and pound you.

Non doubleing orions can of course cloak out to avoid the EPT.

There is no magic bullet, but orions that engage without engines "hot" die. They know this tough so they will try to avoid you.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Yeah, well as TKR player an EPT opening is pretty much standard, but maybe I should hold S in this match-up? I can be more of a threat T1 but at the expense of my usual EPT threat.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 04:38 pm: Edit

One of the problems with starting the game with an enveloper armed is that if he goes into the corner to cloak, which isn't completely out of the realm of posibility, you are kinda hosed--you are unlikely (impossible?) to keep lock on if he just

cloaks out on impulse 1. I tend (as the Gorn) to go in on T1 with one of my torps on rolling delay, planning on corner dodging if he doubles and chanrges, and if he corner dodges with no engines doubled, I just cruise up the middle of the map and take the high ground.

-Peter

By Del Bristol (Djb1701) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:15 pm: Edit

It's a gamble, but I have had a lot of luck with bolting non-doubling Orions t1. Charge!

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:36 pm: Edit

You could always go conservative. Start with one Standard Loading and Roll the second. So that you can launch 2 30-point torpedoes (both fake, 1 real+1 fake or 2 real) on Turn 1 or if he corner dodges hold the one and setup for Turn 2. I think that is the most flexible beginning option.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 11:59 am: Edit

Hm, yes that sounds good enough (rolling one torp). But as for bolting I am not so sure! The Orion can take damage surprisingly well I have seen. :P Tnx for the help guys!

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 01:14 pm: Edit

"The Orion can take damage surprisingly well I have seen"

Only on bizzaro world. It is the most fragile of all ships in the tourny.

Undoubled a full bolt spread (at R5) on followed by a HET with lots of running room usually is a sure win for the BP. Of course that goes with my point that Orions that engage without doubling die.

If he doubles, corner dodge. If the doesn't, go get him. Everything else is execution!

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 02:04 pm: Edit

"It is the most fragile of all ships in the tourny"

Overall, yes. But the Orion can take a volley of 20 internals better than any other tourney ship.

That being said, it really depends on his package. If he's toting 2 HB's, He cannot cloak, arm those suckers, and keep his speed up in the same turn unless he empties his batts. If he's playing a low power package, he can get away with it.

What an EPT generaly does is force the Orion to use some of his speed to run it out while you set up for turn 2. This works great until turn 3 when you either

have to cloak, or get run over.

Coming to map center and launching 2 S torps (real, fake or combo) can achieve the same thing. The good news for you is that you'll have your S torps available sooner, the bad news is that Gats eat up standard torps much faster than EPTs.

Bolting is a tough call cause you need to centerline him at range 5. That means you'll probably need to HET to get outa there.

I like option B the best, and following your torps in will be a good thing as it will keep him guessing as to their reality. Paul F has got a good thing going there with rolling 1 S torp IMO.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Quote:

Overall, yes. But the Orion can take a volley of 20 internals better than any other tourney ship.

Huh!?!? How exactly does the Orion take 20 internals better than the WBS!?!? Heck, I can't think of a single roll on the DAC that the Orion takes better than the WBS...

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 03:39 pm: Edit

An Orion after 20 internals will:

Still have it's batts barring freaky dice

Still be able to fly speed 31 an entire turn with doubling, with plenty of power to spare for arming weapons, HET, trac, etc...

Not lose critical heavy weapons as 9 times out of 10 Orion players will take at least 1 "padding" weapon (drones protect hellbores, fusions protect photons, F torps, etc...) in their packages.

Unless he's hit outside of RX arc or not from front centerline, that 20 internals probably won't get a p1. It happens, but not often.

Now given a WBS will shrug off 20 internals, but can it still go high speeds while arming much after taking those internals? Not unless he lucked out severely and took no warp hits. I've always argued that the Orion takes moderate internals (up to about 24) better than any other ship when it comes to preserving it's combat effectiveness for the next couple of turns afterwards. It's the NEXT volley of

internals that will hurt it badly.

By David Cheng (Davec) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 05:43 pm: Edit

I think this is excellent insight; very logically sound.

-DC

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Paul wrote: >>You could always go conservative. Start with one Standard Loading and Roll the second. >>

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Hold one S torp and roll the other one. On T1, the following will happen:

A) Orion doubles nothing and corner dodges, but doesn't cloak. You can agresisvely take the center, and maybe or maybe not launch some plasma (real or fake) at the end of the turn. It is likely safe to envelop the plasma on T2.

B) Orion doubles nothing and cloaks. Agressively take the center. Might be a gamble to envelop on T2. Might not be.

C) Orion doubles everything and charges. You corner dodge, maybe launching some plasma (real or fake) at the end of the turn. Probably safe to envelop on T2.

D) Orion doubles one engine and charges. You can charge back (depending on how you allocated) and if necessary, launch two real torps at him.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Marcus.

1) The dice don't have to be too freaky to lose a battery. On AVERAGE, it won't (barely since 2/3 of hits are on the 5-9 rows and it only has 14 hits, including 2 warp to pad the batts), but it would not be unusual for it to suffer a battery hit.

2) It's a safe assumption that the Orion will be down 4 warp after the hit, including the 2 lost for doubling, and with a decent chance of being down 1-2 Impulse (so 21-23 total power). After the hit, the Orion HAS to double to continue the fight, which puts a big clock on the fight and forecast to its opponent what it will do.

3) Neither does their opponent, who starts with more to begin with. Especially not the WBS.

4) Nor will the WBS.

IME, if both the Orion and its opponent take a volley of 20 internals, then the fight is over with an Orion loss. If the Orion isn't doing 40 while taking that 20, it's in real trouble.

While, on paper, the Orion can still do many things after the 20 point volley, the WBS has far more options for continuing the fight after a similar volley while the Orion is FORCED to be aggressive as non-aggressive play will lose to the still more capable enemy ship.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 08:37 pm: Edit

I agree with Marcus, the Orion takes the first 20 extremely well. The prospect of taking 20 internals, in order to get a good solid shot on an opponent usually acceptable. IMO, It's not as fragile as many people believe.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 08:46 am: Edit

What about the Hellbore Orion who doubles nothing and wants to close to ra 8-15? (ra 5 is bad, 8 is spiffy) Goal of the first battle pass is just to create a weak shield w/o using an engine.

I think it was my orion that started this, I played Orion last RAT and killed a BP or two with this opening.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 10:51 am: Edit

"2) It's a safe assumption that the Orion will be down 4 warp after the hit, including the 2 lost for doubling"

No it won't. No BP will do 20 internals to a doubled Orion. The point is slapping down a non doubled orion. Marcus is argueing the Orion can take it and overload next turn an slam you because you bolted the wad.

I'm not sure I agree with Marcus as my "bolt the wad" will likely followed by a HET and a run away for 1.5 turns. A lot depends on what shield, did I kill a batt, how much running room I've got, and do I have a WW to do a "chuck and duck" when the Orion finally catches me.

Bret, Plasma's never miss. HB often do. (though NEVER in tactics discussion) The HellBoat is not a BAD anti-plasma package but it IS energy intensive. There is little worry that he will cloak out on T1. (If he does, he is going to have trouble moving) 4 HK + 6 HM + 12 cloak = 5 for move and no WW..... not a winner. I can envelope safely vrs the Hellboat and if he overloads in EA.... he may be forced to charge my envelopers.... not a good deal for the Orion. The BP is way more flexible than the Hellboat.

I'll trade down shields.... Like I say, envelopers never miss and you have to come

to me if you want to hurt me.

I've never lost to an orion who engaged without doubling. Actaully..... I don't think I've ever lost to an Orion period, but I usually fly the unbeatable Hydran.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:23 am: Edit

Actually, with the HB package, you have 3 HK + 6 HB + 12 cloak = 6 move + 4 btty = speed 15 if you really want to maintain speed.

Like Larry, I don't believe in Orions, but I find myself flying one against a Gorn in the next round of the Masters. So I find this discussion interesting.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Um, Larry. The discussion was about the Orion taking a volley of 20 internals.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 01:32 pm: Edit

It started off about what a BP ship does vs a non-doubling Orion.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Marcus. I understand that, however, he quoted my quote, which was a response to the "Orion can take 20 internals better than anyone" comment.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Re Larry: I said nothing about turn 1 Cloaking, Overloading or any other such sillyness.

I said On turn 1 my goal is to get RA 8 OR as close I can w/o biting a torp and toss some Direct Fire at the BP. (Staying at a RA > 6 is very Important) Goal kill some shields w/o spending an engine.

This goal is based on two simple truths and a Maxim.

T1) Unless I agree to be hit by it, no turn 1 torp will hit me. T2) Unless I agree to go to ra 5, no turn 1 battle pass can get to range 5.

Maxium: Only double what you need.

Since I don't have to be worried about getting hit by a Torp or a Bolt why would I double?

1/2 of BP Envelope, and 1/2 play aggro bolt games, as an Orion my EA is different when I face different styles.

Since I don't know what I'm facing untill I see the first launch why oh why would I waste engines to prepare for an attack that is not being made.

Ahh: You want me to double it all, OL the Hells and Bite that first turn enveloper only to be "Supprized" by an imp 27 speed change and "cheated" out of RA 8. NGH

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Note:

expected damge from 5x1 + 2x Hell @ ra 15 is ~10. I think dodging that initial Env-S those rommies love to toss, and shooting him in the arse with enough to creat a weakest shild is enough to ask from a Un-Doubled Orion.

If he doesn't turn off then I get ra 8 on the Forwards. expected damge is 16, hmm still enough to get a weakest shield, while I then wander off and out run that torp.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:16 am: Edit

Bret & Andy,

Lets keep the thread threaded ok? Originally we were talking about what to do when the orion doubles, when it doesn't double, and is loading a T1 ENV a big risk.

If the Orion doesn't double and engages I am proposing bolting as a "JUST FINE" engagement. You are going to be shooting a 24 box shield most likely (unless where you play non doubled orions go to R1 on BP.....)

There was then concern about a T1 Cloak and crawl to the center of the map. This is a valid risk the BP must face. Bret then states the Hellboat is the way to go agasint BP. Fine, but in some ways that makes the BP's job easier on T1 since you KNOW he isn't going to cloak... there simply isn't the energy on the orion to do it.

So don't jump up and down on me because I am addressing the original points. If you want to start your post by saying something like, "Doubled or not 20 internals hurts an Orion because it takes at least 2 warp engines off, maybe 4, and MAYBE some impulse", I would agree. But you are announceing at the start of your post you are changing what we were talking about.

I think there are 2 big problems with an Orion fireing at 9-15 and sheering off:

1) Expected damage may well be ~10. But damage does not come in averages. Roll some 1s on phasers and like is good. Miss with both HBs (not that unlikely) and he toss up the batteries and laughs at you. You are taking a big gamble

where the down side for you is really bad and the up side isn't all that great.

2) Where are you going to go? After firing at R12 or so he is going to turn towards you and push you into the corner. This is NOT a good place to be. The closer you go, the harder it is for him to chase you and the more plasma he is likely to launch at you trying to keep you from going to a really bad(for him) place like R5(or 4) where the plasma's don't arc. Once you fire, you have no "stick" to control his movement. He will go where he wants to, unlikely that is where you want him to be.

I will stand by what I said earlier.... Orions that don't double (and double both engines) on the turn of engagement (especially the 1st engagement) lose. Later in the game you might only double 1 if you don't need gobs of power.

I'm cool with a long game against the Orion. Even a Hellboat, though that does put a clock on me, the clock is a lot longer if you are shooting at R9-15 (reinforcemt WILL ruin your day there) The BP is strong in a long game.... the Orion is not. I do NOT care about hitting weapons on the Orion.... I want engine hits, period. (Its nice to kill a HB, but I don't need to to win)

No where did I say BP is an autowin vrs the Orion. The Orion can do lots of nasty things, especially in close, to make landing a plasma stupidly hard. If the engines are doubled, you are pretty sure you WON'T be anchoring him. You also won't penetrate the shield without a plasma landing on the facing shield. (since there is likely 20-30 reinf on it) See above about how hard it can be to land plasma on turn mode A,2 HET ship.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 01:13 pm: Edit

I personally like to double 1 engine on turn 1 because I'll be able to make an engagement if I choose, and I'll be better preparred if something niffty pops up. If I don't double, I have to play keepaway and an agressive opponent can push me into a corner. I somewhat disagree with Larry in that I often double only 1 engine on quite a few of my engagement turns. Now if I'm engaging up close and personal, then maybe both engines will be lit up. If I'm playing a BP opponent and will be making a R4-5 pass, then 1 engine is fine in most cases.

But that's just the way I play it.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 02:51 pm: Edit

And the the Fed shoots your unreinforced #1 at R4 and blows you up.

I dunno.... Sure lighting both up tells him you are coming for him. I guess I don't

care. I'm quite willing to TELL my enemy my plan before the game starts. My plans have multiple option points. If you do A, I do B, if you do C I do D. I don't really care if you know them. I assume you are following an optimal plan and I will base my plan off that. You have to quickly recognize a sub-optimal plan from your enemy and REACT or you will die. (Possibly why Mr. Marcus lost to Mr Sir_Hood this year in the finals) The trick is do I read that you are doing A or B in time for me to switch to C or D. Most of my plots look the same till we hit the critical decision point.

I think on the 1st engagement, lighting up 1 is too mediocre. Not enough juice to really go get the BP, but it costs you an engine. Again, depends on your package. 2ph1/1Gat/2F may not need both engines hot if you are going for a R5 shot on a flank shield.

I agree with being flexible, but I also feel if you throw a punch, you should aim for the back of the head not the nose. (back of the head via the front of the

face... ) Maybe that is the Hydran in me.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Jason didn't beat me in the Finals, it was the quarterfinals ;)

And there are always exceptions to the doubling rule - If it's a FED I'm facing, damned straight I'm, lighting them all up. Maybe even the impulse. But many BP ships play for a long game and a hellboat Orion can do well doubling 1 engine a turn. Believe me, I'll double both if the situation warrants it. But I aim to double 1 a turn vs BP if possible. Especially against Roms. Announcing full doublage only to have the rommie announce fadeout is a real bummer.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 05:13 pm: Edit

And this means the game(if the Orion double one or less a turn) will be doubly long for the BP. Can it win that attrition battle?

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Bret, I think one of those BP was me.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Follow-up question: There is a difference in what startegy to use, and in which manner a win is actually achieved. I wonder: In which manner does the Orion loose game to BP? Is it because: 1. They run out of engines (cocaine effect)? 2. have no shields to fight behind (EPT game)? 3. Internals? 4.?

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Carl,

Yes, all those will kill you.

It all depends on what you do and what I do.

Some BP envelop. Some hold the "wad" and try to land 100 points of plasma, and if you turn off bolt 50+ phasers in your butt. Some just try to keep you from overrunning them while you cook your engines.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:07 pm: Edit

RE Carl, Yes I know I played you in the last RAT. & I still haven't revealed my super secret anti Orion in a T-KR plan. (T-KR is a good ship, only thing besides an Orion that I've aced in.)

RE Larry: I take Hellbores vs BP because my other option pack is Phots. If I had a set of F's I'd have to try it out to see if I liked the way it worked. Since I've never flown it, I have no real comments about it. But I do hear that it solves the Fed Delema.

Also my Hell Package has a Pl-F in the Nose instead of the Gat. It is a slight difference but it matters. (I'm less likley to Phaser a Plasma down, Less Likley to try for Ra 2, and do more damage at 3-10)

Multiple Plan Option Points. With you 100%. In a forum it is difficult to talk about all options. The number of variations there are in even a single opening plan are tremendous.

Hence we all talk about the counters we expect, and of course get countered by

the Other sides next post.

In general the Firing Options I like (first turn) are RA 10 on the rears with an F bolt or Ra 8 on the Front with an F launch to cover the retreat.

I have seen damage variation from 25 to a Rommies Rear @ 10 to 6 Damage on a Forward @ 8. Thems the Dice.

The Range 10 Rear shots usually happen soon after the BP turns off after an ENV shot. Some BPs do HET to resume pursuit position. (In this case cloaking turn #2 is an option)

If the BP doesn't turn off, then I usually get RA 8. That whole 15->17 // 26 -> End (or whatever the equivalent plot is for the Specific BP in question) speed plot tends to keep the BP close enough to its torps. (yes even after Side Slips) Fire the Phasers & Hells, Launch the F and Turn off. The couple of slips that the F causes them to do usually gives me the 2-3 Hexes I need to Dodge back out of the corner. & Start setting up for turn 3.

Yes it can take 14 turns to Kill an opponent, exp if you are shooting @ 9-15. Things happen.

I look for a point of closest approach that costs me the least.

If my opponent is low on Torps (aka out of S's), and I'm hot I go for as much as I can. RA 1-2 is the Goal, Range 5-8 is usually what I get.

If my Options are Take a RA 12 vs that Chuck & Duck Rommie. Or Ramming a torp & let him cloak, Easy decision, Long rang shot, He takes (10 hopefully), I take nothing, (assuming I'm not doubled......) and the Turn counter increments.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Re-Carl: 1) Really only Kills youngling Orions. There are exceptions, but get enough experience and this is not really an issue. (You just learn to think as if you have 0-1 repair, and that is earmarked for the AUX)

2) Prob, not gonna be the Death of the Orion, If you run an Orion out of shields, but leave too much of its guts intact. It can still out run any torp you launch and Brick to deal with phaser strikes.

3) Yep this is it. Do enough ints that he runs out of excess damage. Only way to kill a ship ;)

Most Orion deaths I've seen have been. oops, now I'm dead. Really quick, really decisive. 2 reasons 1) Because of Doubling an Orion who is getting behind, tends to double it all and Charge. 2) Once you get past that forgiving sweet 16 (what I call em) inturnals, they start to hurt FAST. A bad turn leads to a facing down shield over a turn break = dead.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 07:32 am: Edit

Bret, thats what I suspected. In that case the engine degradation is really no drawback for the Orion. Either it uses it to best advantage and win, or else he

makes a mistakes and dies the instant death (or near enough ). Jim Hart think my cloak is a too good thing, but I wonder if not the Orion engine doubling beats that!

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Been slow around here so trying to stir things up a little.

Q 1) Which ships can play vs a Zin w/o planning on weaseling, as part of over all strategy?

My list Klink, WYN-Fish (w-add), WAX, Hydro, Andy, Orion

In all other ships I assume I'm going to Weasel 8+ drones sometime, the only real question is when.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:35 pm: Edit

I would remove the Hyd from that list. I would add all of the Roms (cloak)

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:22 am: Edit

I would only COUNT ON weaseling for sure in the Fed, Gorn, ISC, and maybe the Selt. But I would CONSIDER using the WW in any other ship except, of course the Andro, and probably the Aux.

Ships like the Klink and the Shark would rarely use this approach, but it could work with careful setup. For the Orion, it would usually be used as a follow-up to a crushing blow or in conjunction with cloaking or uncloaking. And as Andy P. pointed out, it is often part of Hydran strategy, as you often want to direct the gatlings at the enemy ship and use other methods to dispatch the seekers.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 09:18 am: Edit

In the Aux I generally arm at least 1 weasel against the Kzinti. It makes it easier to deal with the drones during the knife fight that the duel almost inevitably

devolves into Stephen

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Bret wrote: >>1) Which ships can play vs a Zin w/o planning on weaseling, as part of over all strategy? >>

None of them.

Well, ok, a few can usually get away without weaseling at some point (WAX, Romulan if it cloaks but even then it usually weasels too, Orion). But I'd think that *everyone* who was fighting against a Kzinti would want to factor weasel use into the fight. As Stephen points out, heck, even the WAX is going to want to stop and weasel eventually.

If you are using phasers to shoot drones, you aren't shooting the Kzinti. Which makes the Kzinti very happy. If at any point in the game, you can save some phasers by weaseling, you should do so.

I played the Kzinti for a very long time. And fairly successfully. And when my opponents didn't weasel? I usually beat them, regardless of what ship they were.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>Ships like the Klink and the Shark would rarely use this approach, but it could work with careful setup.>>

What flying against the Klingon (one of the hardest fights for the Kzinti), I would build my game around encouraging the Klingon *not* to weasel, as the Klingon usually did just fine when it weaseled (due to the UIM disruptors), and consequently, I rarely launched the SP early vs the Klingon (as he wouldn't usually stop and weasel just 4 drones, but usually would the 6-10). The Klingon gains a great deal of advantage in this fight by weaseling a lot of drones. The Shark is pretty much the same way--the Kzinti doesn't really want to rush up to R1 on a parked 4 drone Shark (that has more energy in overloads, tractor, and/or rienforcement), and doesn't so much wanna swap R4-5 shots. If the Shark can weasel off a bunch of drones and save phasers for the Kzinti, the Shark is gonna do just fine too.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>I would remove the Hyd from that list. I would add all of the Roms (cloak)>>

Yeah, I really don't think the Hydran can reliably win this game without weaseling at some point. If you shoot down the Kzintis first 10 drones, and then next 4, you got nothing left to shoot the Kzinti with when he gets next to you.

The Romulans can, as you note, avoid weaseling through Cloaking, but the end

result is usually pretty much the same (you have to slow down to speed 4 to shake a bunch of drones). But even then, it is often a good idea to have a weasel ready anyway, 'cause you *can* emergency weasel in the middle of a turn if all else fails, where you can't emergency cloak in the middle of a turn.

-Peter

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Peter is blatantly misremembering several dozen duels with my lyran. I won maybe 10% where I weaseled compared to 40% without weasels. The kzinti is brutal in an overrun on a slow opponent and the lyran's ESGs are worse than useless following a ww; announcement voids a weasel long before fire control can activate. Lyrans don't win against kzinti by weaseling.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:39 pm: Edit

I will note that I would not consider weaseling in my WBS(Ba) against a Kzinti. I have successfully handled the wave without using more than my ph-3s.

The Klingon can PLAN to not use a weasel if it PLANS to use its SP into anti-SP mode.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 01:44 am: Edit

Many ships can PLAN not to use the weasel. This plan could include having a weasel around as a backup plan. In general, though, unplanned use of a weasel against the Kzinti is likely to get you in trouble, or is an indication that you are already in trouble.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 08:48 am: Edit

Chris wrote: >>Peter is blatantly misremembering several dozen duels with my lyran. I won maybe 10% where I weaseled compared to 40% without weasels.>>

My memory of this is exactly the opposite--the games where you didn't weasel were the ones that I won; conversely, the games where you weaseled where the ones that I did not.

>>Lyrans don't win against kzinti by weaseling.>>

I don't think they win by not weaseling either. Ken supports the idea that the Lyran can win this game by only ever engaging in the last quarter of a turn (i.e., like, an impulse 25, R4 oblique shot, followed by turning and running the rest of the turn at high speed to avoid R3+). But even then, it seems likely a weasel is going to hit the board eventually. My experience against the Lyran was that if it simply ESGed the first 10 drones and shot down the next 4, it got killed, as it was using 6-8 phasers on drones where the Kzinti was using those same phasers on the Lyran.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 08:53 am: Edit

Andy wrote: >>I will note that I would not consider weaseling in my WBS(Ba) against a Kzinti. I have successfully handled the wave without using more than my ph-3s. The Klingon can PLAN to not use a weasel if it PLANS to use its SP into anti-SP mode.>>

Sure--in both cases, the ADD makes not weaseling a much more viable concept. But still, if you have the opportunity to weasel a bunch of drones and instead fire those P3s into the Kzinti, you should do that. And it should be built into the overall strategy (i.e. have a weasel and look for an opportunity to use it in lieu of other drone defense methods).

-Peter

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 09:19 am: Edit

Normally when I play against the kzin in the KLI, AUX, rommies or either lyran I plan on not weaselling.

In all those ships it is easy to use speed and point blank defense phasers to kill drones or the ADD. Against the KZIN I plan on not going to r2 or less til turn 3 where it is usually unavoidable at that point.

Normally drones can be handled with just spd and the occasional P3 fire to whittle em down or each of those particular ships abilities to handle the drones.

Normally in both the hydran and WBS I plan on weaselling although the Kzin can play a defensive game to not make it necessary, the plan is there.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:19 am: Edit

Big Plasma can plan on now WW by forcing the Kzin under his OWN WW. Its like a Free WW for you.... yay!

As a Hydran, I almost always load 2 SS, except vrs Roms (2 WW) or Kzinit (4WW). That ought to tell you something about the Hydran and his need to preserve the heavy weapons (Gats) for use on the enemy.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:24 am: Edit

Quote:

My memory of this is exactly the opposite--the games where you didn't weasel were the ones that I won; conversely, the games where you weaseled where the ones that I did not.

Looks like I'll have to remind you.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:27 am: Edit

Larry! Sign up for RAT23! You have about 4 hours!

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:32 am: Edit

Peter. re: Klingon and WBS(Ba) - I have to disagree. With the WBS I load 2 Suis and do not expect to spend any more power on shuttles other than the 2 to hold those two I start with. Between the ADD and drone-v-drone work, I will rarely even need to use the ph-3s. Without the drones, the WBS outguns the Kzinti at all ranges (though not quite all arcs).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:45 am: Edit

With the WBS (B/a), I can see that. With the Klingon, without the 3 drone racks and dual bays, not so much.

-Peter

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Peter,

I just bought a farm. I have no time!

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Re: LYR vs ZIN

Just to clarify Peter’s comments, I never contended that the LYR should not arm weasels against the ZIN (it should), I just do not think the LYR should weasel the 1st 10 drones. That is, the LYR captain should not allow the 10 drones to deter him from trying to get to the shot he wants, which I think should be r4 oblique, late on either T1 or T2 (usually T2 as the ZIN will often deny r4 on T1). I don’t see how the LYR is using 6-8 phasers on drones on this attack run, for the following reasons:

1. late turn, high-speed, oblique attack should provide an escape for fast drones launched on T2 2. if the Lyran “ran around” any of the 10 T1 drones (quite possible), there is still some ESG available to protect against the new T2 drones 3. even if the Lyran screws up the attack run, he still has 2 P3s, 2 tractors, and 2 offside P1s (although I like to save the offside P1s to shoot at the ZIN, as the ZIN

will eventually show the down shield if it turns in to pursue)

Obviously it is dependent on how skillfully the captains execute the attack run, but assuming average dice and assuming the LYR got reasonably close to r4 oblique late in the turn, the LYR should be up on internals after the 1st pass. This doesn’t win the game for the LYR; it only gives him an internal advantage for when the game goes to knife-fighting range on later turns. It is because the ZIN is such a formidable knife-fighter that I rate the matchup very even, even though the LYR may be ahead on internals after the 1st pass.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >>I donÕt see how the LYR is using 6-8 phasers on drones on this attack run, for the following reasons:>>

The Lyran *isn't* using 6-8 phasers on drones on *that* attack run--it is using them on the far more common, less optimal attack run. The one where the Lyran ends T1 between R10-8, and engages early on T2, using ESGs to kill 10 drones, and then finding itself at R1 against a Kzinti who has just launched 4 fast drones.

This isn't clearly a *good* way to do this fight. But it is one I have run into an awful lot...

-Peter

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:28 am: Edit

Peter, What kind of moron would do that?

Andy

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:15 am: Edit

:-)

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 09:08 am: Edit

Ok. I played a "test battle" against a Kzinti(bakija) on Sunday. I played wide on t-1, and angled for a late t-2 r4 oblique shot. It went like this: - T2 I turned in his direction to engage, he also turns in to engage; we get closer -My ESGs consume 10 drones (no type IV trickery from Kzinti) -I arrived at R4 one hex to him off perfect oblique(perfect oblique is better) -I fire 2.23 at his #6 ( a little later in the turn would have been better, I think) -I hit with 2ols and do like 7 or eight internals,no weapons; the Kzinti holds fire I turn out to run, Kzinti follows along with 4 fast drones, looking for r-2. -Kzinti fires @r3 after I change speed on 2.28 and he sees he wont be getting r-2. -He hits with 4 ols on my #5, does 27 internals( gets a disr, two phasers, 5! Impulse, 2 warp)

-This internal count is almost exactly backwards from what I was envisioning. We end the turn. Turn 3 I decide to run. He decides to go slow. 3.4 his weapons cycle and he shoots me again @ r-4 through the #4, this time 6 in. He gets an ESG and a second disruptor. If I had been moving a little faster and gotten out to r-5 before his weapons cycled, AND avoided more internals, this was still a game at least, but, at this point I concede, because I'm so far behind on internals, and also because Im getting booted off my connection about every 15 min. :-(

Anyway, the point is that this is a much better strategy than trying to weasel off the first 10. I felt optimistic about the game, as opposed to the sense of doom that comes when you weasel those 10 drones as the Kzinti is bearing down on your hapless ass. If the Lyran hits with 3 or 4 OLs and the Kzinti hits with no more than 3, the Lyran will be ahead after the first exchange, and the Kzinti will get no closer than range 3 or 4. No weaseling or slowing down until the Kzinti is down some phasers and a disruptor, at least.

Oh, and my opponent was a considerably better player than I am. Also a better dice roller. Not a good combination for me.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 10:29 am: Edit

Two Big IFS in that statement. This is why I think WW 10 drones is better.

Only the plasma ships really have enough "oumph" to push the Zin off his SP drones so you can kill them at leasure.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:00 am: Edit

Larry, In a Lyran, you're not pushing him off his first 10 drones, you're eating them with ESGs and shooting him. You can add to the above "IFs": IF you also kill a disruptor,and a couple of phasers, and maybe a drone rack, two or three power.. Maybe it is possible to WW the first ten ( in a Lyran), and I just can't figure out how to make it work?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:06 am: Edit

You give up either speed or your ESGs to handle the first 10 drones. Keeping the ESGs prevents him from getting to ph-3 range where he can match your firepower.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:32 am: Edit

Yeah but you are going in with an initial alpha of 6P1's and 4 UIM OLs while the Kzinti has 4P1's and 4 OLs possible(non-UIM). So the initial salvo should favor the

lyran. Normally this is 15 more ints at range 4.

The ESgs on the initial 10 should probably be after firing the p3s into them leaving an ESG up with 6-8 points for any furhter drone issues(not likely to be used but gives some protection).

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Andy, If you weasel, you effectively give up both your speed AND your ESGs. I think he needs to be well damaged before you can think about a weasel.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 12:06 pm: Edit

Andy,

T1: It looks like you had rienforcement somewhere, but I didn't hit it. You also had a single disruptor armed, yet didn't shoot it (you could have on impulse 32). I'd figure arm 4 standards, move, like, 16 hexes, and put up a big brick (16+4+8+2 weasels=10 points of rienforcement) and start out with the turn to the corner.

T2: As noted, if we both hit with 3xOLs, you are doing fine in that exchange, especially as I couldn't then get to R2 to maul you. If you hit with 4 and I hit with 2-3, I'm hosed (as I take ~25 internals where you take about 8-16).

T3: If you could have gotten out to R5 before I shot, you probably would have been ok--yeah you had a down shield facing me, but I couldn't shoot anything till impulse 4, so you probably could have gone 27 for a few impulses to bust out to 5 or 6 (probably 5 by impulse 4 when I could shoot you), at which point you are taking about 24 damage total if I hit with 2 OLs. Which is a down sheild, but no internals, and then you come back with an ESG on the next turn.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Andy P wrote: >>Keeping the ESGs prevents him from getting to ph-3 range where he can match your firepower.>>

The trick there is being able to weasel the first 10 drones and then getting the ESGs up in time before the Kzinti is on top of you, which is difficult as announcing the ESG voids a weasel explosion period, and if the Kzinti spreads the first 10 drones out, you end up having to delay your ESG for a few extra impulses.

If the Kzinti is far away when you weasel, he likely shoots you at 8 with whatever and leaves (heck, even though the weasel shift, that is half a shield for no damage in return), coming back later when you are slow and he can make you deal with 8 drones again. If he is close by when you weasel, he'll probably be at

R1 before you can announce the ESG safely.

-Peter

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 04:33 pm: Edit

" Larry, In a Lyran, you're not pushing him off his first 10 drones, you're eating them with ESGs and shooting him. "

Thats kinda my point. If you can't push him away from his drones, he WILL outgun you.

If he gets to R2, you die badly. Thus you MUST go faster. Thus, he can reinforce, or try to catch you.... either way is good for him. Likely the Zin has MORE power on T1 due to WW and ESG caps needing topping off.

You MUST turn off. Thus he can hold his wad, knowing it is unlikely you will break his alpha all that much at R5/R4 and shoot you in the butt. That is 6 more internals. Equall to the Disruptor you MIGHT have gotten lucky and shot off him before you engaged. The 2 phaser hits you MAYBE got are meaningless.

Peter B,

You can always drive right up to the Zin and Blast him at R4 and then ED/WW. Not alot of finesse, and not as good as a speedy WW, but since if he wants to overrun and mug you at R2 he is dealing with a 2 shift, its probebly a wash. Then raise the ESGs at some appropriate range after the WW. (maybe with the Zin inside them?)

I dunno, I'm not a Lyran master by any means but I've never seen anyone win by trying to: 1) Kill the drones 2) AND engage the Zin

Sometimes if the Zin is an idiot you can fly around the drones and mug the Zin before WW and/or running away. I've seen it done by Gorns and REALLY brave Hydrans, but I can't recomend it as a serious tactic. Anything that starts with "assume the enemy is an idiot" probebly won't work well in the long run.

I think a R8 shot and turn off is a good deal if you can combine that with a few drones hitting your ESGs. The UIM is a big winner for you at this range and the Zin likely doesn't even do internals back. However, you can't KNOW you will get that, so you need a plan for the case when you end up getting closer than you planned on T1. I think a WW is a better bet than chargeing 10 drones.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Larry wrote: >>You can always drive right up to the Zin and Blast him at R4 and then ED/WW. Not alot of finesse, and not as good as a speedy WW, but since if he wants to overrun and mug you at R2 he is dealing with a 2 shift, its probebly a wash. Then raise the ESGs at some appropriate range after the WW. (maybe with the Zin inside them?) >>

Heh. I don't think that'll work that well. If you decel when you are at R4, you've already had to have deal with some drones in all likelyhood (requiring either phasers or ESGs), and then stopping and weasling just lets the Kzinti stop next to you and maul you.

>>I dunno, I'm not a Lyran master by any means but I've never seen anyone win by trying to: 1) Kill the drones 2) AND engage the Zin>>

Agreed. But what Andy was trying yesterday, and what Ken Lin swears by in this match up, is to engage at R4 on the oblique near the end of the turn. You can kill the 10 drones on the map with ESGs, shoot with 4OL/6xP1, turn off and runs fast for the rest of the turn, never letting the Kzinti into R2. If the Lyran hits with 4xOL at R4, the Kzinti takes, like, 25 internals. Assuming the Kzinti held fire to shoot at the Lyrans weaker flank, and the Kzin lost either a disruptor or a P1 and can get to R3, the Kzinti is going to only do 8-16 internals. On the next turn, the Lyran can either run or park as necessary, being ahead a dozen internals or so. This being said, the disruptors are a big issue here, even with the UIM. If the Lyran goes 3 for 4, the Kzinti is only taking about 15 internals, and if the Kzinti lucks out and hits with 3OLs on the Lyrans flank in return, the Lyran is taking about the same damage in. So this plan is dicey (literally), but likely the best one there is.

>>I think a WW is a better bet than chargeing 10 drones.>>

Maybe, maybe not--keep in mind that the key here is that you engage the drones and Kzinti in the latter half of a turn (say T2) when you are going 26 or so for the rest of the turn. ESGs up at zero to eat 10 drones, skirt into R4 oblique, blast, turn and run. Any fast drones the Kzinti launches are unlikely to catch you before the next turn (I'm assuming a 26/27 plot for late in the turn, so you move most of the latter half of the turn--something like a T2 plot of 14 till 16, 26 till 26, 27 till end when you can be pretty sure you aren't getting inside of R5 till later in the turn). T3, you can run or park as necessary, and if you are up a dozen internals (not that unlikely an outcome assuming A: you with with at least one more OL disruptor than the Kzinti and B: the Kzinti doesn't get to R2), you might be ok.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Just a quick message for Eol re: launching a SP and recovering it.

So you plot speed 12 till impulse 12, then speed up to whatever.

Impulse 2: Launch speed 6 SP. Impulse 3: Slip right (or left). Impulse 6: Go forward. SP goes forward. Impulse 8: Slip left. Impulse 11: Go forward, SP goes forward. SP launches. You are 1 hex in front of shuttle. Impulse 12: Announce speed change, tractor and land shuttle. Impulse 13: You are now speed up to 24 in a hex with 6 drones.

-Peter

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Or, if you want to move a little faster earlier:

Impulse 1: Speed as high as 25. Impulse 5: Announce speed change to 12, launch SP Impulse 6: Sideslip. SP goes forward. Impulse 8: Go forward. Impulse 11: Sideslip opposite direction. SP goes forward. Impulse 14: Go forward. SP blossoms one hex behind you. Impulse 15. Announce speed change to anything up to 24. Tractor and land shuttle. (Drones are in your hex if you launched them facing you.)

Note: If your initial speed is between 14 and 21, you could announce your speed change on 7 instead of 5. Many other variations are possible.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Last time I beat a Zin in an ESG ship.

I used My ESG's against the initial wave. And Weaseled the 2nd.

Worked fine that time.

There were other tricksies. Like I convinced the Zinti to shoot into my rear ~5ish then I Het'd and came back for a ra 2 shot(now that I knew he didn't have enough tractor power to scare me.) Not that I had many Disrs powered. I remember 1 + 1 off of batts but 2 OLs + 6x1's @ two is still ~16 inside.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Swat down 10 drones with turn 1 ESGs and maybe the p3s, shoot the kzinti with 3 or 4 UIM overloads, preferably at range 4 oblique, then run full speed til the end of turn 1. Turn 2 run the length of the map, recharge ESGs and watch the enemy in your rearview. ESGs are available on turn 3 so turn and fight, or shoot and weasel if the kzinti followed you closely all turn.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 09:33 pm: Edit

"shoot the kzinti... at range 4 oblique, then run full speed til the end of turn 1"

This is fine but key addendum to this is, and this is what will get the LYR killed against the ZIN - if it looks like you are not going to get r4 vs the ZIN on t1 you MUST BREAK OFF THE ATTACK (a competent ZIN is perfectly able to prevent r4 on t1 if he chooses). You need to turn off and end at r20, to set up a late turn attack on t2. Otherwise, you will end up at r9 at the end of t1, and the Zin will pound the snot out of you on t2. Honestly, even if you get r8 late on T1, you are just pissing the ZIN off, and you will have a fully overloaded Pissed Off ZIN (this is a technical term) on your tail for t2. If you're not going to get r4 on t1, you need to end at ~r20, to set up the t2 attack.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 07:40 am: Edit

How do I reach range 20 after breaking off the attack?

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 08:27 am: Edit

The easiest way to end at r20, if the ZIN corner dodges, is to corner-dodge yourself and start coming out in the middle of the turn.

Watch the scatter pack closely. The ZIN must stay with the drones in order for the drones to be effective. So once the scatter pack has popped, the LYR generally knows where the ZIN is going to be and can plan for it. Because of this, this attack is easier for the LYR to achieve than the ZIN to deny.

This is an old topic that has been covered before in some detail on this thread. Check the Sep 10, 2005 archives... Norm in particular has a pretty well written post on this matchup.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Found the post. I remember being part of the conversation. I remember well your advice to end the turn at range 20.

To be very specific- what do I look for as a lyran to help me decide whether to go looking for an overload shot or to back off and wait for turn 2? It seems that once inside range 15 I'm too close to escape, but the kzinti still has

enough latitude riding herd on his drones to prevent r4.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Chris, I am certainly no expert. I've only tried this approach the one time against Peter, but I had no intention of engaging on T1. I decided beforehand.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 03:25 pm: Edit

I'd think the key to this whole plan is to start T2 about 20 hexes from the Kzinti. So I'd plan on spending my first turn setting this up. Go something like:

-16 for 16 all turn -4 for ship -8 for standards -2 for weasels -2 for an ESG top off -8 rienforcement on you #6

If the Kzinti corner dodges, you go forward. If the Kzinti agressively closes, you corner dodge.

As noted, it is simply too easy (and too advantageous for the Kzinti) to avoid R4 on T1. So just assume he will do that, and plan on ending T1 at about R20 regardless.

-Peter

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 11:16 am: Edit

You know...just an aside.

If I was playing a ship with 4 ADDs, and my opponent (Kzin) dropped 10 drones on turn 1, I'd weasel them.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 11:31 am: Edit

Tim!

Where have you been! We needed you for a tournament!

In any case, yeah, see, while that is an extreme example, it is pretty much dead on...

-Peter

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Gee the conventional wisdom is. If you are fighting Zin weasel early & weasel often.

Ok, no REAL arguments there.

(standard disclaimer, I do suck in D&D ships, so these thoughts, going against conventional wisdom, are probably the ravings of a lunatic.)

I do think there are some alternative plans. ex: I have flown a Klink with a plan of drones vs drone and ADD vs SP. Aka, Ra 4-8 battle pass then turn off and ADD the Zin drones as they spend impulse after impulse @ ra 3. The point is really a battle pass against the drones with some phasers and disrs tossed the Zin's direction.

(assuming room to run) This can deal with an 8 stack with a minimum of phasers and w/o using a Weasel.

This would allow you to keep your speed up & your phasers shooting him.

Where as chucking 8-12 drones into your weasel does free up your firepower to shoot the Zin.

Few ways are as inglorious to die as having a Zin park next to you.

Sit & Spin @ 1 is a Zin's strongest position.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Yeah as a KLI I have done the T1 close to as close as possible..ideally R3 but anywhere inside 8 is fine.

Hit him with the bearing alpha(not using P2s unless at R3 and SS/turn off to kill drones uphill the next turn. As he most likely will not be giving you the range easily his initial alpha will most likely be on your 2 or 6 depending on your vectors. Outside of R4 he most likely will not be getting through it, you should get some reinforcement or ints.

As a KLI the first 4 or so drones launched will be antidrone in nature and then the ADD and p3s clean up the rest(I use the P2s as p3 fire constantly utilizing their phaser capacitor energy to the utmost).

Depending on the KZI manuevering the downed(or weakened) T1 shield may get shown for phaser 1 fire. As the KLI though you'll be losing rear shields as you run so just make sure to minimize internals as best as you can.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 08:00 pm: Edit

Suppose I (a lyran) end the turn at 20 hexes from the kzinti. What then allows me to get a r4 oblique?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Yeah, Chris and I were discussing this, and if we assume that the Lyran ends T1 at about 20 hexes from the Kzinti and the Kzinti has 10 drones on the map, what is to prevent the Kzinti from piddling around on T2 till the Lyran's ESGs go up, and then turning off and running away--once the ESGs go up, it doesn't really matter if they take the drones out or not. They are spent either way. The Kzinti can then peel off, avoid close range, and come back on T3 after launching drones late on T2. The Kzinti comes back and fights on T3 with 8 drones the Lyran has to deal with, and the Lyran out of ESGs.

The timing is tricky, and the Kzinti needs to press until the ESGs are active, but once the are up, if the Kzinti was careful, he should be able to turn and run for the rest of the turn, avoiding the Lyran. Yeah, the ESGs take out the 10 drones and all, but they were doing that anyway.

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Interesting... I have never met a Kzin who didn't want to stay with his drones. Sounds like a reasonable counter-plan to the Lyran counter-plan, actually! I've never heard this idea before, neat!

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 10:06 pm: Edit

Heh--like given that the whole purpose of the first 10 drones is, more or less, to take out the ESGs, giving up those drones to take out the ESGs, even if the Kzinti doesn't engage, might work out fine.

It didn't really occur to me, but Chris figure it was what a Kzinti would do if the Lyran ended T1 at R20. We haven't worked it out yet, and it might be too difficult to pull off (and also might result in the Kzinti getting shot in the butt with a more or less unanswered R8 shot), but might work out. The trick is being close enough to the Lyran to compel him to put his ESGs up but far enough away so that you can get away without getting killed.

Might work--dunno yet :-)

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Well, that is what is great about this game, 20+ years of tournament play and the Kzintis and Lyrans are still plotting the best way to blow each other up...

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 01:47 am: Edit

Yeah - but the Kzintis always win. That Lyran TCC just blows. Literally. >8)

-Sir CatWhoEatsPhotons

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Comment from the peanut gallery.

topic: Zin wandering away from the initial stack of 10.

You might want to wait till the Lyran ESGs come up. Else he can do a Phaser pass on the Drones and skedattle off.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 09:06 pm: Edit

As Peter said, it's tricky to force up the Lyran ESGs and yet be far enough away to avoid being engaged on that turn.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 09:29 pm: Edit

Bret wrote: >>You might want to wait till the Lyran ESGs come up. Else he can do a Phaser pass on the Drones and skedattle off.>>

You saw the part where I wrote "what is to prevent the Kzinti from piddling around on T2 till the Lyran's ESGs go up, and then turning off and running away", right?

:-)

-Peter

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 07:22 am: Edit

The Lyran would need to put up ESGs at the last possible moment? Say R-1 from the "stack". The Kzinti is usually right in the neighborhood. Is it too late at that point for the Kzinti to turn off without his getting caught at r5? Even if it isn't too late and the Kzinti does turn off and maintain r 6-8, wouldn't this result in his taking two overload shots on rear shields? Questions, questions

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Yeah, I'm seeing that that is the trick. But if the Kzinti sees the Lyran is going to end T1 at R20, and assuming the drones are a few hexes ahead (mine are usually 6 out in front, about), by piddling around at speed 14 for the first 1/4 or 1/2 of the turn usually means that the Lyran needs to put up his ESGs significantly before the Kzinti is on top of him. But then, where the wackiness occurs is if the ESGs go up and the Kzinti turns and runs, then the Lyran can probably get a solid R8 shot on a flank, easily burning batteries for 4xOL and 6xP1, which on a flank, is like a dozen+ internals, where the Kzinti is not really doing much in return except making the Lyran waste his ESGs. And then, on T3, the Lyran can probably forgo disruptors to fill up some ESG and then run away in the other direction. Lots

of room for error on both sides here. Might be a viable plan, might not...

-Peter

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:12 pm: Edit

doh, ok read.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:08 pm: Edit

I'd think the Zin wants to be at r3 from his drones, when he approaches the Lyran. This way he can take a r4 shot and possibly knock out an ESG before it kills drones. This would create some tough decisions for the Lyran, with regard to what it should be shooting.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 02:47 am: Edit

A clever Zin uses his racks to his advantage. By lauching the scatterpack, waiting for it to break, slipping around until those drones are 3-4 hexes in front of the ship. Launching rack drones so that they follow the first stack. The Zin is now late into turn 1. At the start of turn 2, the Zin can slip around and allow the second wave to get 3-4 hexes in front of the ship. Now the Zin is 6-8 hexes behind the first wave of drones. When the lyran starts to activate esg's the Zin can still be outside of overload range. The Zin can now launch 4 more drones the same impulse the first wave impacts the esg. If the lyran only uses 1 esg then he still has to phaser the first 6 drones. If he uses both esg's he takes out both the first and second wave but still has a third wave of 4 drones and a kzinti ship. The Zin is left in a superior firing position as the Lyran has to divert firepower to eliminate the sudden third wave without the aid of esg's. And if it's late enough in turn 2, he has to start worrying about the Zin launching 4 more drones early in turn 3. In the end the lyran dies because he let the Zin have time to continually launch drones by waiting around on turn 1 to close. In my opinion the Lyran would be better served by closing as quickly as possible on turn 1. This prevents the Zin from setting up mutliple waves, and keeps the Zin from overloading the lyran's drone defense.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 09:31 am: Edit

Mike wrote: >>In my opinion the Lyran would be better served by closing as quickly as possible on turn 1. This prevents the Zin from setting up mutliple waves, and keeps the Zin from overloading the lyran's drone defense.>>

Heh. The whole premise of this particular thread of discussion has been that the Lyran should specifically *not* end T1 close to the Kzinti, has history has indicated that this is most likely to get the Lyran killed--the Lyran can't prevent the Kzinti from getting 10 drones on on T1, and the Kzinti can easily keep the Lyran out of R5 on T1.

-Peter

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 11:35 am: Edit

Sabre dancing is not out of the question.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 11:36 am: Edit

Sheehy may be right.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 01:03 pm: Edit

I was mearly giving drawbacks to holding the range open for that long. Would not a better choice for the Lyran be a highspeed pass at about 10-12 on turn one. The Zin will most likely manuever to try to keep you from range5. It will take him time to turn around and chase you which gives you time to recharge esg's. And you may be able to deliver a more punishing blow to your opponent by slipping towards his rear just before firing. He may not even be able to get a decent return shot. Of course this all depends on board location.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Just to clarify a little. By rushing towards the Zin you allow the esg's to interact with the 10 drones, maximum the Zin can put on the board on turn 1. By firing between range 10-12 you set up the Zin to chase you. If he is corner dodging(most likely given your aggressiveness) you can peel off behind him and force him to turn around. He then spends the rest of turn 1 and part of turn 2 chasing you while your esg's recycle. You then close on him on turn 3. Your esg's are available to take out his 8 drones(4 on turn 2, 4 on turn 3) and possible still be up. You then have eliminated 1/2 of his drones without taking any real damage in your front shields. You also haven't needed to weasel and you don't need to worry about launched drones until t4. You can continue this type of manuevering until either the Zin has lost his drone launch ability or his front shield has dropped due to sniping with phasers while running.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 09:12 pm: Edit

OK, Cat. I like the idea, but execution is desperately difficult. Expect to be cornered at the start of turn 3. I like it better than weaseling, but it might not be any better.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 08:39 am: Edit

I still don't think the Zin is allowing any of this to happen. If you shoot the Zin at r10-12, you are not going to be using your ESG's on the drones that turn. Assuming you don't want to get run over by the Zin at the same time as his drones, that is.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 01:07 pm: Edit

The zin will have launched all ten drones at you, regardless of which way you go. I am assuming that the zin breaks off his following to allow greater than 3-4 hex seperation in drone stack. The esg's would then interact with drones before the

range 10-12 shot.

Maybe a mixture would be better. Start by corner dodging to get the zin to launch the stack. Then charge the stack to take them out with esg's. Fire at the zin at range 10-12. Turn off and run, after the esg's have taken out the 10 drones.

Of course we could always just blast the shuttle when launched and set up at r20 for second turn. If we take out the scatterpack first, before it opens, we keep the Zin drones to a maximum of 8 on the second turn.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Mike:

Why are you assuming the Zin breaks off to allow greater than 3-4 hex seperation with the drone stack on turn 1? For what possible reason would he?

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Steven, exactly my point. The Zin won't be leaving his drones un-escorted. I can think of nothing that the Lyran can do to change that.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 07:17 pm: Edit

Tractoring the Kzinti at range 3 can do that, Brian. It's not LIKELY, but you said "nothing".

I've used this opening with the Fed:

Charge the Kzinti. You have 8 phaser 1s, 8 labs, 2 phaser 3s, a tractor and a suicide shuttle to start with.

You know 6 drones out of the SP can be stopped by 6 phaser 1s at range 1.

You have 8 labs versus 4 rack launched drones - odds are, you ID them. Kill two with phaser 1s (as they're probably slims), and use your phaser-3s to kill the third. Use a tractor beam to hold the fourth. If there are fatties in the stack, use a phaser 1-ph-3 combo to kill two, tractor one and suicide shuttle the other one.

You absolutely need high speed to charge the drones early in the turn, so that your phasers have recycled by impulse 1 of next turn.

Now, chase the Kitty. Try and end the turn at range 2. Your aim is to fire 3 OL photons on 1:32, and fire the fourth plus phasers on 2:1. Optimally, you have a WW hot to launch in 2:2, with a 4-14 boost.

Usual end result is a badly mauled Kzinti, a Fed with two down shields and about 12 internals.

The Lyran can't quite do this (lacks the shock power of the Photons), but I don't see why it's anathema to *gasp* use phasers on drones in the Lyran against the Kzinti.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 08:08 pm: Edit

How do you end up with only 12 ints, after being run over by the Zin? I'd love to know how to beat a Zin in the Fed.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 10:53 pm: Edit

Yeah... I'd like to know...

-Sir CatWhoEatsPhotons.... and lives to tell the tale.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 01:17 am: Edit

If the Zin is trying to avoid a possible esg ram, then he will allow a greater space. The lyran can always shoot down the scatterpack before it opens. Raise the esg's to radius 5 after the drones reach range 4, id and shoot the drones at range 1, which cause the esg's to impact the zin at range 5. (assuming the zin is still following at range 3-4.) This does have a drawback of leaving you facing a zin with little or no weapons left.

In the fed example, Why would the zin be running? If he plans a late speed change to a lower speed, he can reinforce a side shield. He then eats your three photons(gambling that only 2 out of 3 hit.)On impulse 32 of turn 1, he executes a het and brings a fresh shield into play. Turn 2 he plots a speed 0 with tacs, then a speed 10 increase for rest of turn. He dumps full overloads plus phasers after turning them into arc. But the key is on impulse 1 of turn 2 he launches a ww. The fourth photon either misses with a bad shot, or is removed from arc as the fed flys right on by. The ww eats a phaser or 2 as well. The Zin then unloads before the fed can get out of overload range. He then launches his drones later in the turn and trys to build another large stack for turn 3 when the fed has to come back for another pass.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 05:13 am: Edit

Mike,

Range 5 ESGs? I have not played in a while but I thought the most an ESG could be set for is range 3.

I don't think the Lyran can "always shoot down the scatterpack before it opens" as easily as you think. At what range are you assuming he launches the pack and what are you killing it with? Disruptors? Disruptors + phasers? What are the odds of doing 6 points of damage at that range?

As to your key, if the Kzinti HETs on T1:I32 he cannot launch a WW on T2:I1 due

to the four impulse restriction against shuttle launches after a HET.

Ken

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 08:08 am: Edit

Ken is right, ESGs have a maximum radius of 3, not 5. He is also correct about the shuttle launch restriction, no shuttle launches the impulse of an HET or for the 4 impulses following. Stephen

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 09:40 am: Edit

Ken wrote: >>The Lyran can't quite do this (lacks the shock power of the Photons), but I don't see why it's anathema to *gasp* use phasers on drones in the Lyran against the Kzinti.>>

'Cause then the Kzinti is winning. If you shoot down the drones with phasers, you are not shooting the Kzinti with phasers. So while the Kzinti is shooting you, you are going "Hey. I have nothing to shoot back with..."

Right. Just to put this discussion in a bit of context, as a Kzinti vs a Lyran, my general opening looks like this:

-4 standard disruptors. -Speed 16 till 24 and then 31 till EOT. -5 rienforcement somewhere (#2?). -An SS shuttle.

Impulse 5, I launch the SP at speed 6. I turn right, slip a couple times. Impulse 14 the SP opens, I launch 4 rack drones. I turn north, slip, turn left and hook in behind the drones. At the end of the turn, I have a stack of 6 drones about 6 hexes in front of me, a stack of 4 drones 4 hexes behind the first 6 (spreading the drones complicates weaseling if the Lyran decides to do that)and about 2 hexes in front of me.

The Lyran *can* end the turn at about R8 if it wants, but if it shoots everything then, it is taking a less optimal R8 shot at the end of the turn on a rienforced sheild. T2, the Kzinti comes screaming in with weapons ready to fire.

I've played this game roughly a billion times. Theh Kzinti is in no way an auto-win, but it is hard for the Lyran.

Ken Lin's plan involves ending T1 at about R20 instead of R8, allowing the Lyran to engage the Kzinti late on T2 when the Lyran is going fast, so it can ESG the 10 drones on the map, come into R4, shoot with 6xP1 and 4xOL, and peel off and run for the rest of the turn, never letting the Kzinti get inside of R3 and not really

having to deal with the Kzinti T2 drones, at which point the Lyran can develop a plan for T3 as necessary.

-Peter

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 09:58 am: Edit

Mike:

Why would the Zin open up a 10-12+ range from his drones to avoid a possible ESG Ram of 0-3? I have 10 drones, a ship, and possible a shuttle to absorb the ram.

Killing the Scatterpack on turn 1 at range 23+ is going to be really tough (don't forget small target modifier), especaily if you also want to shoot the Kzinti at 10-12+.

Have you actually played this tactic?

I do find the Lyran one of the more tougher opponents when I'm in a Zin...

I personally would like to see a Lyran hang out at range 20+ for a turn 2 engagement. I now have 10 drones out to start turn 2, while turn 1, I had zero. Plus, my slow speed at the start really won't come into play turn 2 at this range. The Lyran has improved his position by ???

Ken: Never seen a Fed (or anyone without Gats) shoot all 10 drones before and keep coming. I would think Kzinti would do more than 12 internals, though if he only has standards, I could see only 12 (or less) while you are shooting my drones. Turn 2 though, you'll see more than 12 even if the Zin is on a new shield.

All of this is just my opinion of course.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:03 am: Edit

>>Never seen a Fed (or anyone without Gats) shoot all 10 drones before and keep coming.>>

Heh. If I saw the Fed storming me having shot down all my drones with phasers and tractors, I'd go "Yaa!" and rush him back, trying to get to R1 and maul him with disruptors and phasers. Yeah, I'd get hit by 4xOL photons at R1, but he's getting hit by 2xOL, 2xStd, 4xP1, 4xP3 for roughly the same (if not more). And I get to shoot again on T2...

-Peter

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Peter, I've done it. Not sure it works often enough to be an every time opening,

but what usually happens is the Photon Mizia Attack.

As the Fed, you're going to eat 2 OL and 2 Standard disruptors as the norm, plus 4 phaser 1s and 4 phaser 3s.

I get the following:

2 OL, 2 standard disruptors: 20 or 24 damage. You might get lucky and only eat 16. We'll call it 20.

4 phaser 3s at range 4 is 3.166 per phaser, or 13.

So, 33. I have a 30 box forward shield.

If I get to range 2 (where I intend to fire), your phaser-3s become a threat - they average 3 points each. So 12.

I take somewhere around 12-15 points of internal damage from the Kzinti, assuming I present the same shield at range 2 that I did at 4. I might take 20 if you hit with all disruptors and roll a touch over average with phaser-3s. I might take 3-4 if you roll below average with phaser 1s.

Recall, you have nothing to constrain my maneuver with with no drones.

The key as the Fed is to make sure that you charge those drones and kill at least the SP drones by Impulse 25, and HOLD YOUR FIRE until impulse 32 with the photons. You need photons on 32, and 6 phaser-1s on impulse 1 to make this work. To make sure these keys work, you need to plot your photons like this:

2H 2H 1H+5 1H

Leaving you 4 extra warp.

Add 4 HK, 2 for special shuttles, and out of your initial 43, you've got 4+11+2=17; 43-17=21 movement, 5 reserve warp.

You overload the last photon during EA of turn 2, or (if the Kzinti has been kind enough to let you close to range 2 without mid-turn-speed-change wankery) from reserve on i32.

Does it work all the time? No. With the exception of the Romulan Robo Ballet, very little in SFB works all the time.

Does it work some of the time? Yes. It certainly does better for you than turning your ass to the Kzinti to shoot up as you run away from drones. Once the Kzinti is chasing you in the Fed, you're in trouble.

Why does it work? Because it's so far out of the expectations of the Kzinti player that he succumbs to the "Scream And Leap" philosophy and will let you get a range 2 shot when you'll have phasers up on impulse 1 to fire into the hole you made with the photons.

The scatter pack, using the standard opening, breaks around impulse 9. The drones will close by about 10 hexes before impulse 25 of their own movement. Your ship needs to move at least 14 of those 16 impulses in most cases to get to drone killing range before impulse 25.

So the usual plot is 16 to 10 (5), 31 to around 20 (10), 17 EOT (about 6), bumpable to 24 or 31 with reserve warp.

The Kzinti relies on shoals of drones to influence the target's maneuver. Not as much as the plasma ballet crowd does, but he does rely on it.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 06:21 pm: Edit

It can work, but requires crackerjack timing that the Zin might be able to deny you. However, I agree that running from the Zin usually just prolongs the inevitable.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >>Because it's so far out of the expectations of the Kzinti player that he succumbs to the "Scream And Leap" philosophy and will let you get a range 2 shot when you'll have phasers up on impulse 1 to fire into the hole you made with the photons.>>

And if you accidentally end up at R1 (I don't know about the rest of the world, but I'm always moving speed 31 for the last 8 impulses in the Kzinti...)? The Kzinti shoots you for (25+15+20+16 feedback=76 more or less) and on impulse 1, the Kzinti feeds you 3 heavy drones...

I mean, like, yeah, ok, I can see that once and a while, you might surprise someone, confuse them, and it'll work great. But as a basic plan? Unconvinced :-)

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 08:28 pm: Edit

How do you shoot the drones on i25, and not get run over by the end of the turn, while still keeping photons in FA? I can buy the rest of the plan working some of the time, but that part seems highly unlikely.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:24 am: Edit

Ken just thinking here:

Drones move 10 hexes from launch or 11 total hexes(as shuttle moves one), for you to reach R1 to them by 25 doesn't that mean you need to close 23 hexes by then?(ie you start 34 hexes from each other). So yeah seems like the tactic is pretty tough to pull off.

Again most kzin I know will just do wonkie stuff like actually following their drones by 5 or so hexes, so if at imp 25 you reach r1 to the drones by imp 28 you are R1 to a kzin.

Maybe I just don't see how one can make 6 hexes distance last for 8 impulses when the ships are both moving for the laast 8 impulses. Obviously this is with the caveat of the fed keeping the kzin in the FA as well.

Possibly playing someone who is just throwing drones out and running away this is a good tactic. But then that kzin has likely lost as soon asa he started playing.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Sorry, my esg memory was a little off, as was my memory for restrictions after the het. Try this neat little trick for taking out the zin's first turn scatterpack:

If the lyran moves speed 31 for first 9 impulses, it is possible using sideslips and turns to get outside of 35 of the sp. Making them inert. Here is an example.

Impulse 2 turn direction E move into hex 1601.(assuming 1701-d as start) Impulse 3 slip into hex 1501-E impulse 4 move foward hex 1401-E impulse 5 slip into hex 1301-E impulse 6 move foward into hex 1201-e impulse 7 slip into hex 1101-e impulse 8 move foward into hex 1001-e At some point the shuttle has moved into hex 2429 -A of F. The current range is 35. impulse 9 slip into hex 0901-e. range is 36 sp goes inert as it is ouside of range 35. (rule f3.31.4) impulse 10 turn direction d and begin engaging the zin. Leaves both esg's available and may allow the lyran to set up at range 20 for turn 2 engagements.

Ken:

I use my drones not to effect manuever but to reduce the firepower of my enemy. Anytime my opponent uses all his phasers to stop drones, I have an advantage. The trick is exploiting it. At range 5, I am going to score about equal damage with

disrupters and phasers as the fed will firing 4 fully overloaded photons. Assumes 2 ol disrupters and 2 standards and rolls of 3 and 4's on all die. If the fed only fires three photons then I might do double the fed's damage as 2 out of 3 photons will likely miss.(50% chance of missing with each photon fired). I can then het and run to avoid allowing the fed to get closer. If done properly the fed never gets inside of r5. Even if he does get inside range 5, I will have damaged his front shielding to taking the damage in my rear shields. The next time we close and engage I will have an easier time forcing the issue on his weakened shield than he will of exploiting mine.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Mike Hardy:

Which is why no Zin will launch his SP when the opponent starts out at such a high speed. And / Or the Zin will go speed 12 with a tractor ready to bring shuttle back aboard. (I cannot remember if its a 8, 16 or 32 impulse delay before the SP can be re-launched.)

Ken Burnside:

I certianly hope your tactic does not work on a regular basis. Using all your phasers to shoot the Zin's drones making it Heavies versus Heavies & Phasers is a Zin's hope. If you still win, then there's either some Zinti dice flying accross the room or the Zin needs to be tweaked up. And I doubt anyone on this board wants to do the latter. :-)

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Mike, that range 35 thing is exatly why I always launch my scatterpacks (in the tournament) with ballistic targeting and a range 20 or so release range. Of course your plan also assumes your opponent, upon seeing you going speed 31, will launch his scatterpack on impulse 1, something i doubt many Kzinti captains would do unless the scatterpack was in fact set for ballistic targeting. Stephen

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 10:54 pm: Edit

As I understand ballistic targeting, the scatterpack moves towards a specific hex, when it reaches the release range it opens, thereby allowing the drones to accept a valid target in range. If the valid target is not in range, the drones go inert upon release. So I do not understand why the range 35 thing doesn't work on your ballestic scatterpack. Also, I find that the zin turns to his corner right away if I have a high speed. I can then fake a charge at him, force him to turn, then turn off and get outside of range 35 from him. Effect is the same, any and all launched seeking weapons go inert. I have been known to use this one if the zin plots a lower speed say 12 or so. The point is the zin really needs to wait until either my speed drops, or the range is closer than say about 26, before launching the sp.

It takes 32 impulses before an inert scatterack can be relaunched. Making it a non-issue until late in turn 2. Recovered on turn 1 after impulse 9. cannot be relaunched until 32 impulses have passed, turn 2 impulse 12 or later, as it will likely not be recovered before impulse 11 of turn 1. Then the 8 impulse delay puts the drones coming back out about impulse 20 of turn 2, unless I shoot it down. Very likely as I will be inside of range 23+. I have thereby eliminated the zin drone threat and have my esg's to conduct a ram with. A ship, 4 drones and a shuttle is not going to prevent the extra internals at the start of turn 3.

To answer an earlier question: (Why would the Zin open up a 10-12+ range from his drones to avoid a possible ESG Ram of 0-3? I have 10 drones, a ship, and possible a shuttle to absorb the ram.) A zin is likely to peel away from the drones as speed 20 can be walked around. If the zin continues to close behind an agressive lyran player he risks having the lyran walk around his drones, put up esg's and drag them over or push them into his ship. It is possible to get around speed 20 drones, close on the zin, and have the 10 drones be behind and outside of the radius of an esg. The zin is left with phasers/disrupters vs. phasers/disrupters/esg ram.

By Tom Carroll (Sandman) on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Quote:

So I do not understand why the range 35 thing doesn't work on your ballestic scatterpack

Because you can set the range of release to less the 35 hexes. If you set the range at say 15, unless a target moves within 15 hexes of the sp, it won't release.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 09:32 am: Edit

Ken, are you actually firing a P1+P3 at a heavy drone? Why aren't you just firing 2P3 at it? That saves you .5 power in your phaser caps.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:48 am: Edit

Mike Hardy, If you read my post you would have seen that I specified a release range for my scatterpack of range 20, thus my drones would not realease from my scatterpack until range 20 (more likely to set it to range 22 due to small target modifiers), thus preventing your turn away from the scatterpack at high speed plan from working. Stephen

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 10:55 am: Edit

Mike wrote: >>Try this neat little trick for taking out the zin's first turn scatterpack: >>

Even without using a balistic targeting for the SP, it is still really hard for the Lyran (or anyone, really), to pull this off.

Most of the time, folks won't launch the SP till around impulse 5 (to get the shuttle a hex or two closer to the middle of the map, and then so the shuttle moves twice on 6 and 11 before it opens). If the Lyran (or whoever) is going 31 early on T1, they'll have to turn out soon to get out to R36. If the Kzinti sees the Lyran turning into the corner before SP launch, they'll likely hold the SP till they are in a less likely position to accidentally lose the SP to tracking problems.

*If* the Lyran starts out at 31 and turns off immediately *and* the Kzinti launches the SP on impulse 1, then this can happen. Which is embarrasing. So it makes sense for the Kzinti to plan on avoiding this :-)

-Peter

By David Cheng (Davec) on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Let's remember that many of the folks on this board are top players. They are much less likely to let drones lose tracking by the target getting outside range 35.

But, that's not to say that such a trick wouldn't work vs 40-60% of the players in a decent FTF tournament, or maybe 20-30% online.

I have done this vs a good, albeit rusty player. Well, once.

-DC

By Kenny Bruce (Lt_Bruce) on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 02:31 pm: Edit

I have been looking at the tournament ships and comparing them to their non-tourney equivalents, and it seems strange to me that the Zin tournament CC (sfb BPV 135, and with no reloads the tourney one is arguably worse) and the Gorn Battlecruiser (sfb BPV 160) are considered to be "balanced" enough for tournaments. In SFB thats a 25 bpv difference, enough for a good bit of commanders options or something. I'm not a very experienced player, at least in tournaments, so I don't know how it actually works out, anyway, I was curious. (That isn't the only thing, theres also the Tournament Battle Raider, but the Kzinti seemed especially marked.)

Kenny

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Kenny wrote: >>I have been looking at the tournament ships and comparing them to their non-tourney equivalents, and it seems strange to me that the Zin tournament CC (sfb BPV 135, and with no reloads the tourney one is arguably worse) and the Gorn Battlecruiser (sfb BPV 160) are considered to be "balanced" enough for tournaments.>>

Keep in mind that BPV is, in reality, pretty ball parky in terms of indicating "balance", and that the tournament game has a lot of built in structure that the regular game doesn't take into account (closed map, no EW, no boarding parties for anything other than H+R raids, always WSIII, very restricted expendables, etc).

Using the two ships you are looking at, the Kzinti is considered one of the best TCs in the tournament (which, really, it is), even though it has no reloads, only can have 3 type IV drones on the ship, and only one SP. The Gorn TCC is downgraded from the regular ship (only 30 warp, which is very significant as it can't HET at speed 28, which the "regular" Gorn CC can; no psuedo F torps, no carronade, 2 fewer shuttles; boarding party actions aren't allowed; the EW advantage from plasma is not part of the tournament; etc.), and even on the closed map, the Gorn is considered pretty middle of the pack in the tournament (i.e. not real spectacular).

>> In SFB thats a 25 bpv difference, enough for a good bit of commanders options or something.>>

The tournament environment has been being tweaked and balanced for 20 some odd years now, and as such, the BPV of the original ships are pretty far removed from the equation by now.

-Peter

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Kenny,

There are a number of intagibles that make a diff. That a casual view of the Kz SSD wouldn't tell you.

1. Only 1 other tourney ship has a SP and it can't ship launch and control all 6 SP Drones.

2. The Kz is the most durable ship in the tourney. Having the greatest number of boxes. (This may have changed but I don't think so.)

3. The Kz has more Fast drones than the Klink. The WYN ships only have Medium with no fast.

4. The Kz can have more ship killer drones than anyone.

All of these are minor advantages. But in the long run they pay off. Just look at the number of Kzinti wins. Not to mention the RPS grid. The Kz has a pretty decent shot against most ships.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 05:26 am: Edit

As well as what has been said remember that the Kzinti CC is actually a lot more than 135 BPV once you upgrade 4 Drone Racks with Fast and Medium Drones! I think with 8 fast and 16 medium it adds about 16 BPV making the Zin come in at about 151 BPV only 9 less than the Gorn.

-Jason G

By Kenny Bruce (Lt_Bruce) on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Ok... I suspected it was something like that, (I wasn't suggesting that the tournament ships were "wrong", but I was curious as to the apparent value difference). I think I understand now. =) Thanks!

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Quote:

the Gorn is considered pretty middle of the pack

Says the guy who won the last online tournament in it. And still wants it upgraded.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 04:03 pm: Edit

>>Says the guy who won the last online tournament in it. And still wants it upgraded.>>

You'll notice how I said "considered". And how the general RPS opinions (and Schirmer's 10 years of collected data) agree with that sentiment, right?

Man...

-Peter

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 12:05 am: Edit

I was looking over the posts lately and I think I found a way for the lyran to engage the zin and avoid the sp drones completely in the first turn. As I understand it the zin should usually hold the sp until impulse 5, launch it so

that it opens about r24 or so. (r24 is the first range where the small target modifiers give only a shift of 1, and a 33% chance of hitting per disrupter.) So if the lyran announces speed 16 with a change of speed to 31 at about 4 or 5, he can: 1) possible trick the zin into launching early, making the r35 thing possible by having the speed to get outise of r35 from the zin and/or the sp. or 2) move towards the zin's corner, while avoiding the r24 from the scatterpack.

As the second option is really what we were trying to achieve, I think it will work. The lyran can achieve a range 10-12 shot on the zin without ever opening the scatterpack. The lyran really controls when the sp opens and can do so at his option. If the zin gets moved far enough away from the sp, the lyran might be able to hit with a double esg ram and have time to avoid the sp drones.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 09:54 am: Edit

I like the ESG ram on the kzinti until he launches 3 heavies, a type 1, and a shuttle. Then you have to phaser some drones or the ESGs get split 6 ways. With all your power in speed and the kzinti carrying OLs you might not give as well as you get.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 09:57 am: Edit

Mike Hardy:

Tactic doesn't work if the Zin launches ballistically, and he should. Zin will simply hang around the SP till you close enough for it to break.

In my opinion, the Lyran would be better of making plans to deal with 10 drones while he is fully armed on turn 1. The longer he waits, the more drones he will likely face when he does engage.

If the Lyran (or any opponent) is going to move fast enough to fly around the speed-20 drones, is not enough reason to leave the drones and allow them to be destroyed easily. Zin is pretty much always out-gunned in DF and can't abandon one of its advantages due to the 'threat' of an esg-ram. Manover to keep the drones in play (and don't forget the anchor or threat of).

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:50 pm: Edit

Anybody got any suggestions on Lyran vs. Andro?

I find that try as I might, I cannot beat the andro in the lyran tourney ship. I've tried draining him of power by holding fire. He always seems to fire at range five and displace eliminating any esg ram. I've also overloaded everything and traded shots at five with esg's at r3. I've tried the fire at 8 and weasel trick. Nothing works.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 06:31 am: Edit

Yeah, he's gonna displace at 5 but he ain't doing internals from there, so you

don't have to fire. Wait and see if the DisDev works. Even if it does he is still in front of you (or inside the ESGs) and you can chase him down while he re-arms. The trick is to engage between the creases of the map. That way you can still catch him by the end of next turn, no matter which corner he hides in.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 07:08 am: Edit

Can the Andro even do shield damage from r5?

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 07:39 am: Edit

Yes. The TRLs do a max of 10 points of damage. So if the Andro maxes out 44 points of damage. Average is 14 (for 2 TRLs) + 8 (for 8 P2s) = 22 points of damage. That assumes that we center lined him.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:41 pm: Edit

So the lyran plan is as follows: put one esg at R3 and let him come ram it, if he does unload all into him.

If he doesn't ram it he has to show you his rears eventually, fire everything into them at the best range you get. Next turn repeat while you are going spd 26 all turn(with 3 std disrupters). repeat til andro dies.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Make sure you always have SOMETHING to fire after filling (or even partially filling) the rear panels; it makes stupid panel tricks much more difficult.

Even a couple Phaser 1s at range 8 should make him think twice and pay for the dump. Andros are pretty bad at taking internals from all I read (I don't play Andros). Hit a battery and "lots of bad stuff" (tm) happens.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 04:46 pm: Edit

I flew a Lyran against Sir_Goofy the Andro a few weeks ago. I lost, so take this with a grain of salt, but this is what I learned: Don't put two ESGs up. Put up one at a time at range 3. If he runs into that, you have a decent chance of doing internals through the front panels. If he fires and displaces at range 5, just take the best shots you can on the rear panels. Keep your speed up, arm standards on his reload turns, and stay to the inside of him on the map. Always threaten him with something to complicate his panel dump. Thats it. That's all I learned. It was a short game.

Andy

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 06:13 am: Edit

Standards will avail you not. The andro is a threshold ship and damage up to the threshold doesn't stick worth a ••••. Remember that t-bomb will just about nullify one ESG, so use two. Don't play panel degradation games- they take too long. Instead go for a full salvo of overloads, preferrably on the rears.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 08:06 am: Edit

I defer to you Chris. You're probably right. I was thinking 4 standards on his reload turns, two of which could be ol from batts if the opportunity presents itself, but could still be fired from outside range 8 if it doesn't.

You'll need to moving pretty fast to catch him, and standards are better than nothing?

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 11:29 am: Edit

Standards can be pretty effective. Fired one at a time, each one does one point of deg.

By Martin Read (Amethyst_Cat) on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Andy: 1/5 of 8 is 1.6, which rounds up to two

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 02:32 pm: Edit

I think Andy is talking about the standards out to 15, where the 3 points of damage do 1 degredation (3 damage x.2=.6 which rounds up to 1).

-Peter

By Martin Read (Amethyst_Cat) on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Ah. I got confused and thought of photon torpedoes. My stupid

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Which is really easy to fix sing 1 CDR repair to clear the entire panel. If you are playing deg games you aren't doing internals.

Put up 2 ESGs so he has to fire outside of R3, then run him down and blow through the rear panels. Your DIS will probebly get used 2 times:

Turn X: He shoots and displaces, you chase. Late Turn X: You shoot him in the butt. X+1: You chase and shoot phasers into his butt over the course of the turn or whenever he toggles pannels. You HET if you have to stay close X+2: You park, overload and blow his butt off.

This is not hard with the new "pre-crippled" Andro

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 05:14 pm: Edit

When you put up 2 ESGs, the Andro goes away until they come down, then

comes in to r-3, fires and displaces. I think putting up one may be a better choice.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:26 am: Edit

Maybe I am out of date, but I thought the Andro had tr heavies. If so, then he can internal you from range 5. I find that the first turn when I chase, he hets after I fired into rear panels and overruns me while I am waiting on esg's. turn X: he fires and displaces. late turn x: I fire into rear panels after chasing. Turn x+1: he hets and overruns, my damage fills front panels.(exception is if I fire on 24 and again on 1, but then he gets range 0 phaser shots)He drops panels on rear panels on impulse 2 after hetting and gets them up again before I can shoot them) Turn x+2: I have esg's but am chasing him again. He either runs and lets me shoot rear panels now that they are empty. After I fire, he displaces behind me and blasts me with everything, I pretty much die. Or he slowly turns around and shoots me on the chase shield. Then displaces over me and runs again. Maybe I just have opponents who have great luck with the disdev. they almost never have the disdev fail. I usually am dead or really close to it after 4 turns. If I did only use 1 esg, I can prevent the overrun, but I am still not getting through the panels before I am taking internals.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Mike wrote: >>Maybe I am out of date, but I thought the Andro had tr heavies.>>

You are out of date. The Andro hasn't had TRH's for years now (4? 5?). After the ship won nationals, got downgraded, won nationals again, got downgraded again, and then won nationals yet again, where most of the time, it took no significant internals, the it was decided that the ship was bad for the tournament, so it got effectively neutered.

Folks have been trying to make it viable/balanced for years now, and the current sanctioned version (2xTRL/8xP2) isn't totally hopeless--it is balanced, more or less against big plasma ships and moderately weak vs most everyone else, but playable. The other playtest version floating around has 3xTRL/6xP2, which has more or less the same firepower inside R3, but can actually potentially knock down a sheild at R4-5, which the 2xTRL/8xP2 version can't do.

-Peter

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 03:12 pm: Edit

" When you put up 2 ESGs, the Andro goes away until they come down"

Then I shoot his butt and "go away" myself. I'll take a R5 shot on the butt of the Andro.

It was explained why 1 ESG doesn't deter the andro. There is no point in doing half measures against the andro, it gets you killed.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Peter; Thanks for the update. That will change how I deal with the Andro and shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Larry; Shooting the Andro and going away yourself, doesn't take advantage of your disrupters. Could you clarify. If you turn off and run, then the andro chases you, sets you up again, and can do it all day long, meanwhile, you are not getting any significant punch through his panels. He just keeps dropping and emptying the panels.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 01:00 pm: Edit

An overload shot on the rear WILL do internals.

Besides, I might not "go away". I might chase you and try to end the turn within range 5 pointing at your butt.

I'm just not scared about the R5 damage output of a 2 TRL andro. If he wants R3, he is going to have to eat my ESGs.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Or HOP the range 3 ESG to get to extremely close range. PUTZ around for a few impulses to get AFC and then BANG!

Gambling that you take at least one ESG hit.

The Andro can control which panel bank takes the ESG by maneuver within the already erected sphere.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Hopping inside the R3 ESGs means you're going to give the Lyran an R1 or R0 shot before fire control is up That'll crack even the front panels, and then the Lyran can drag the ESGs over them by turning away.

Pretty risky, if you ask me.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 09:55 pm: Edit

I've seen an Andro hop inside the ESG. It's definitely a little tricky, but much move effective than I had previously thought.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Sorry, I'm Still confused.

If the Andro displaces and runs, you chase and try to end at range 5 in the rear. Impulse 2 of next turn, Andro hets and charges you, assuming you don't turn, Andro nails your front shield with phasers. Unless you Het, your movement combined with his will take you out of overloaded disrupter range before you can fire them into the rear panels; Unless you fire them on impulse 1, which means you were at r5 on impulse 24, so he hets on 31 and really gets you. Combine the trl's and phasers from the first turn and you possible have taken some serious internals, including the loss of an esg, disrupter and a number of phasers. I've had this done to me a number of times. Also the esg's are now hitting the front panels, assuming you still have them up and didn't use them the first turn. Just for the fun of it, he transports a t-bomb in front of you as he is passing you, so that you have to eat it on the shield he just shot unless, you have a really good turn mode or can het.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:23 am: Edit

Turn 1 hit his rears with overloads only-reserving the phasers to make his decision more exciting. You'll spend less on phasers, he'll radiate less into space. Then on the second turn give him a full alpha.

If the DD works you set up board position. You might as well try to catch a bandersnatch.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 11:55 am: Edit

Shun the froomious Bandersnatch?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:01 pm: Edit

The vorpal blade went snicker-snack. He lopped its head, left it dead, and went galumphing back!

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Not trying to be purposely funny, but is there really an issue that Lyrans cannot defeat the Andro?

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 06:23 pm: Edit

I think it was tough to do vs the old Andro. I don't think the new one is that bad. If the old Andro could knowck down a couple of the Lyran's front shields, the Lyran was usually toast.

Which brings up another topic: Ships that are really screwed when losing their front shields. I vote yea on the Lyran, Fed and Hydran as the worst 3.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 09:49 pm: Edit

The TKE is not too happy about losing it's front shields either.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 08:06 am: Edit

Neo-Tholian doesn't handle it well, either.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Worst is Isc. The ship is durable, however, the loss of a front shield seriously effects its ability to fight.

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Chris; firing only disrupters from range 5 in the rear will net a maximum of 30 points; no internals. the Andro can het the impulse after and drop rear panels, which all the energy is absorbed into batteries. Phasers will not punch through the front panels, and he will be able to fly at 31 on turn 2, in the opposite direction than you. Trying to overload, and rearm, will mean you cannot catch him. He will then have the room to dissipate all of his energy. I cannot beat the Andro with the Lyran. I last longer than before, but the problem isn't its weapons, the problem is that It can take 30 points of damage, and transfer it to batteries every turn. That is the equivalent of having a new shield pop up in place of a damaged one every turn. I can stay on him, if I don't overload or I don't arm esgs, but then I cannot punch through the panels. The lyran are not good at long turn sniping duels. The are too power hungery.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Actually assuming R8 on the Andro rear panels.

4xOL UIM first pass.=24 Dam+4p1 for another +9 or so.

33 dam -1 Leak -6 Degradation making Rear panels 18/34 Putting 26 power into his panels.

EOT he dissipates -4power Absorbs 2 Panels have 20 power still in them.

Next Turn: turn gently don't rush. Power phasers+ std disr.

He has to approach you (or run very far away) to get his rear panels out of arc and stay out of arc. But lets say he manages to drop panels all the way. he has to hold 20 power.

Thats 4 empty Batts. not easy to achieve if you start off with any power in them.

I'm not saying its easy. But other than the Klingon/TLM IMO no other MC1 ship is as good at dealing with the Andro as the Lyran.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 02:59 pm: Edit

One thing to consider when flying against the Andro in any ship is that speed plays into the hands of the Andro. With Galactic ships, the faster you go, the less power you have for things like weapons and reinforcement. The Andro, OTOH,

does not lose anything by going fast, as long as it has some juice in the batteries. Going fast can actually help it funnel power from the banks to the batteries to the engines.

So in that respect, the faster you fly against the Andro, the more you are playing into his hands.

Of course, the flip side is, if you go too slow, you allow him to go in and shoot you, then run off and clear the panels. He regenerates a lot faster, even if you are making him hit shield bricks. So I can see where the "chase him until he starves" strategy comes about.

But my point is, don't mindlessly pump all your power into speed. Pay attention to map position. Keep the inside position - he can run circles around you at 31, but he can't get too far if you have the inside position. Use speed when it counts, but save power for weapons and reinforcement when it doesn't.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Andy's point is standard tactics for MC1 ships versus MC2/3 ships. But is well stated.

You can't match the Andro (or other 2/3's) with speed. Go fast enough to keep in the general area and you'll do fine.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 05:25 pm: Edit

IIRC power from the dropped rears goes to the front panels.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Yeah, Chris is correct. The Andro cannot clear panels and fight at the same time because only power that cannot go in any active panel will go to the batteries. So he needs to drop ALL his panels, or at least drop one and set the other to standard level, in order to effectively clear energy. And while doing so he will by definition have to show a down or full panel to his opponent.

The Andro doesn't really hurt that much if you don't fill his batteries for him. Certainly not enough to outweigh the fact that he is doing damage to you all this time and you are not doing any in return. Power is a regenerating resource (for everybody), but shields aren't, and internals are even less, so if you try to trade one for the other you need a BIG trade surplus or it's a losing proposition, and the Andro is just not that short of power.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 09:30 am: Edit

Just reading over this thread after Hood told me how he won Origins last year. Maybe a bit of thread necromancy here, but hey, they're fresh posts to ME!

Andy Palmer wrote:

Quote:

The higher frequency of the "go slow and make the game last longer" tactics is why I don't play tourney SFB any more. I have much better ways to spend 4-6 hours of my time.

Uhh... that may have been me. Sorry.

Peter Bakija wrote:

Quote:

one vs a TKE that was very cloak-tackular, as that is how the TKE works (have I mentioned recently that I hate cloaking devices?)

Uhh... that may have been me also. I think it was in the same RAT. Sorry.

IIRC I was only ACTUALLY cloaked about 3 turns that game, but the game lasted about 12, and in like 9 of them there was a good chance that I *might* cloak, which is almost as bad if you are trying to attack.

I would never open a game moving seven hexes on turn 1 but I fought Andy and Peter and both of them complained about non-aggression (both of them, IIRC, were playing Gorn). Now I remember both of these games and I can see their points, in fact, part of the reason I have moved away from TKE is that I don't want to annoy my opponents to death. The strategy I was using I consider legal within the letter and spirit of the rules, but it probably wasn't much fun to play against.

In any case the goal wasn't exactly "go slow and make the game last longer" as much as it was, the general theory underlying plasma ballet. The TKE doesn't have a standard ballet option because the arming cycle is wrong so you have to sort of look at what you are trying to accomplish with ballet. When you fire plasma you make your opponent spend a lot of energy running away from it. This increases your advantage because he spends more to defend the plasma than you spent to fire it. Since your opponent is running away anyway you can position

yourself pretty much wherever you want to be without having to really go all that fast. And if you cloak (or might cloak), you don't have to run because your opponent will not be able to return fire with seeking weapons. If you don't go too fast, your opponent may not launch seeking weapons at all, because you might cloak. I was always launching from a position where the R would hit for damage. (With the R, that is almost anywhere on the map, because it goes a really long way).

So, it's not really non-aggression to cloak or to move slowly when I have already fired my plasma, at least, not the way I slice it. Once it's launched the plasma will do the same thing whether I go fast or slow, stop, cloak, retrograde or whatever, and my opponent is running away anyway, so who cares what I do? Then, when you are rearming, obviously nobody expects you to engage when your weapons aren't armed, so again, do whatever you like. It's only if you continue to retrograde/cloak when your weapons are armed that things go bad.

Once in a while (not in these games, usually more against disruptor ships that apply significant pressure to a cloaked ship), I've even been known to stay cloaked when my plasma arming cycle is complete, because I still need to recharge phasers/batteries or build up speed. I try not to do this but sometimes it is unavoidable. The goal isn't to stay cloaked until my opponent fires at a disadvantage, I'm just not finished reloading yet...

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Ok, again, perhaps I am missing something.

Andro does aforementioned battle pass, taking some damage on rear. Andro is apparently now going away from opponent, and drops fronts.

Some time later, Andro is about to wheel around for another pass, and as Andro crosses over to FH, drops rears, then raises fronts. Power goes into Bats, and fronts are clean.

8 imps later, rears come up.

Now, this might be overthinking it somewhat, because if enemy alpha's, the Andro can just as easily drop them all straight away.

Lastly, shredding 20 power during a turn with no preparation, yeah, neat trick. However, having a turn break to do it, no real sweat whatsoever. The Andro doesn't exactly have a slew of power, and after paying 2 LS/AFC, 8 Panels, 21 move, 4 TRL's, 1(2) DD, and 4 Repair, you still have alot of phaser cap to recharge at any amount desired to make the 'right' amount. (or wiggle whatever you want previous in the move)

All that being said, I am pretty bad in the Lyran, and I would gleefully take my

chances facing the Andro.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Hi Guys,

The TKE can be very frustrating to both fly and to fight against, the main reason IMO is not player tactics but the ships overall design.

Plasma torps tend to keep distance between the opposing ships, then the TKE has extra shields + 10 Armour, while at the same time it has less phasers and heavy weapons!

Basically it has way too much Defence and quite poor Offence, the result of which is often frustration on both sides.

The TKE would be the first tourney ship on my overhaul list. I'd go for something like-

25 Box Shields all around. 5 Boxes of Armour. 8 Phaser-1's (instead of 4) drop 2 phaser-3's

IMO such changes would make the ship way more fun to fly and a lot less frustrating to fight!

And the games would finish in a much more reasonable time (witness Brian's two 19 + 20 Turn games in the recent WL!).

-Jason G

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 04:26 pm: Edit

William wrote: >>Uhh... that may have been me also. I think it was in the same RAT. Sorry.>>

Nah. It's every game I have ever played against the TKE in anything. The ship is specifically designed (albiet probably unintentionally) to have to cloak a lot to have a fighting chance in most fights. Which is counterproductive to the game as a whole. Which is why the TKE probably shouldn't be in the tournament at all--unless it cloaks a lot, it tends to do badly. And the tournament has specific rules built in to prevent a lot of cloaking (i.e. the non agression rules). As those two points don't interact well (i.e. rules about non agression and the TKE), one of them should probably be removed from the equation.

>> IIRC I was only ACTUALLY cloaked about 3 turns that game, but the game lasted about 12, and in like 9 of them there was a good chance that I *might*

cloak, which is almost as bad if you are trying to attack. >>

The discussion is still up in the RAT thread. I think it was a combination of many turns of cloaking (at least 3), parking, *and* moving backwards that got me :-)

>>I would never open a game moving seven hexes on turn 1 but I fought Andy and Peter and both of them complained about non-aggression (both of them, IIRC, were playing Gorn).>>

That is 'cause the TKE needs to cloak a lot to have a fighting chance. Especially against other Big Plasma. And the non agression rules specifically say "cloaking is, by defenition, non agression". Thus, by turning on the cloak, you activate the "non agression clock" (i.e. if you stay non agressive for 4 turns, you lose). The problem is the TKE.

>>So, it's not really non-aggression to cloak or to move slowly when I have already fired my plasma, at least, not the way I slice it. >>

The rules for non-agression disagree. You turn on the cloak, you start the non agression clock.

Again, the problem here is not you, or playing the game. It is the TKE.

-Peter

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Huh. I've never had a problem with long games in the TKE.

Charge the Hydran.

Anchor the Hydran.

Feed the Hydran plasma torpedoes.

Go find something else to do for turn two, because one way or another, the game

is over.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Heh. Well, TKE games involving direct fire ships don't really have the snoozefest problem that TKE vs. Gorn does. Really that is part of the problem - it's not just the TKE that is boring, it's really the specific TKE vs. Gorn matchup. Even vs. other Roms, it's not quite so boring because the cloak timer encourages you to not cloak, and knowing you can't cloak, you have to adopt a slightly different approach.

But then I think all plasma vs. plasma matches are snoozefests. It's just that in the TKE you go slow and cloak, in the other plasma ships you fly around in circles, but neither is really any more aggressive, even if in the "traditional" ballet you go faster, you aren't being more aggressive if you spend most of that time running around. The main difference with the TKE is that you only have armed weapons about 2/3 as often.

Now, Hydrans: That's one option. For me it goes something like this:

Charge the Hydran. Anchor the Hydran. Explode.

It took me a while to get the knack of tackling the Hydran with the TKE, I finally realized that you need to conduct the entire battle between range 5-8, which makes the TKE exactly like every other ship, so I'm not sure how this was so hard for me to figure out, heh.

So instead of anchoring I just fly up "close," launch bunches of plasma, too close for him to really do anything about. He can keep coming but will probably take 50-80 in a couple of volleys before he actually gets his licks in, it works out OK. Done this way the fighters aren't such a huge deal because you get close enough to phaser them pretty much no matter what the Hydran does, unless he keeps them on his ship, in which case you might as well just keep going all the way to R3 before firing (probably not R2 though, maybe if I thought he didn't have his fusions ready).

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 11:58 pm: Edit

William wrote: >>But then I think all plasma vs. plasma matches are snoozefests.>>

I agree, I think when BP fights BP Wild Weasels should be banned from use!!

Last BP vs BP battle I fought we spent 10 Turns getting rid of 3 WW's each before the battle really started. :-(

-Jason G

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 12:49 am: Edit

I think the TKE is kinda cool, and many of yo know me as one of the most agressive players out there. It's very much like submarine warfare, which I was always a fan of.

And I'm with Sheap. Plasma ships want to fight the Hydran at around range 5 or so. If played correctly, the long range ballet is a joke and trying to anchor it

outright can be bad for yor complexion unless he's at some sort of disadvantage (like dead fighters and having fired a good deal of his stuff for that turn).

Where we discussing TKE? Oh yeah, you gotta get in a couple of games where you lay out the 100 blob. Just to see the guy sit back and take stock of what he's gonna do. Fun stuff!

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 02:23 am: Edit

Yeah, the 100 point EPT is fun, but the novelty factor wears off pretty fast. After your opponent looks at it for a few seconds, he realizes he was going to run away anyway, so he does and then it's just an ordinary plasma...

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 08:02 am: Edit

I've never had a problem with the TKE in my Hydran. Admitedly, no one has tried to tractor me when I've been fully loaded but I'm still struggling to think how that is a good thing for the TKE (unless the Hydran is stupid enough to not have launched the fighters).

As a Hydran, I am happy fighting a TKE at 5-8 - the TKE's #1 is even more important than the Hyrdan's #1 and its a case where the TKE's 30 point shields are actually a disadvantage (do even 1 damage to the #1 and the HBs will do half against it).

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 11:02 am: Edit

Andy:

What usually happens is this - and it's a "Works only a few times" sort of thing.

TKE plots a slow-fast split.

4 HK 2 to hold the R as an S torp 20 for movement, doing a 17-31 11 to reinforcement (option A) or 11 to tractors (option B) or about 7 reinforcement and 4 to tractors (option C).

Charge.

Launch one pseudo F at each fighter as soon as they're at range 8. This, about 95% of the time, WILL get the fighters to fire both gats into one torp. If they fired fusions, so much the better.

Strafe fighters with phaser 1s when you hit range 4 from them; assume they'll fire fusions rather than close without gatlings. (reasonably safe bet). You may be able to get VERY clever with the dropped T-bomb and kill the fighters with it, but don't count on it. Its primary usage is to kill fighters that are subhunting you, but the technique for that is a different essay.

Hydran has two choices: Fire from the ship and leave, or see what you do. If he keeps coming...

Get to range 3 from Hydran, You have, counting batteries, enough tractor allocated to do a 5 point anchor at range 3 if you did option B. Or you have a 55 point nose to his 30 point nose to close to range 2 and force a "no avoidance" plasma launch late in the turn, generally after impulse 27 or so.

You will almost always have the speed advantage and movement precedence, because few people like engaging the ship without an HET available. (This is keeping 2 batteries held back to upgrade the R.)

If he turns off after firing, keep pursuing. Finish off the fighters with phasers if you havn't. Turn 2's allocation looks a lot like turn 1's allocation, except you're doing about 26 hexes of movement instead of 21, so you can corner the Hydran if he runs. If he tries the speedy weasel over the turn break, string launch Fs, even use the R torp, and make him burn at least two shuttles this turn, and run off; start a WW under reserve power. Then cloak next turn. The fighters are dead, you can do things under cloak he'll have trouble dealing with, and you're usually far enough away to make a high speed fade out feasible, so you're not giving up much speed.

Like all "broken tactics", this one relies on being able to trade one time defense for one time offense.

The time I pulled it on Tim Sheehy in a RAT, he was completely suckered - he had never considered that a TKE might attempt a turn one anchor on his Hydran, and was surprisingly cooperative. He let me get range 2 on the spine with his fighters still in the tubes.

I then used a similar set of techniques with the Sniper Pig versus Hydrans in other SFBOL games...Hydrans are particularly vulnerable to anchors because they just don't have it in their mindset that someone will voluntarily close to range 2 from them and try it. However, given the fact that Hydrans have lots of demands on their reserve power, and on tractor power in general, it's not nearly as big a gamble as most of them think it is.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 11:23 am: Edit

Man, I am never gonna live that game down, laugh. I think this is the 43rd time Ken has mentioned it here.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Interesting, but your range 3 tractor would fail against my standard anti-TKE plot (2 in trac) and as soon as I figured out that the F-torps were targetted on my fighters, I would know they were pseudos because you were still closing (no sane

TKE would approach a fully loaded TLM with only the R-torp). You would therefore be facing 2 fully loaded fighters.

As for the Pig battle, I'm still scarred from facing Moose's Pig one too many times

and probably overcompensate for the anchor threat

My "new" anti-WAX plan is about as crazy as your anti-Hydran plan - I charge the pig, trying to shoot down the T1 drones and try to anchor it at the end of T1 so I can kill it on T2. No, it didn't work when I tried it - I ended up being short a point of power in trac to make it work, but it beat the alternative (i.e., inevitable tractor and death).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 04:26 pm: Edit

William wrote: >>Heh. Well, TKE games involving direct fire ships don't really have the snoozefest problem that TKE vs. Gorn does.>>

I have seen the TKE cloak just as much against my Kzinti, as again, the TKE is specifically designed to need to cloak a lot, with only 1 heavy torpedo. Yeah, it *can* do ok without cloaking too, but with the low cloak cost and long arming time of the one heavy torp, the ship is basically yelling "Cloak excessively!".

Against the Gorn, yeah, that is the game where cloaking is most likely going to come into play, as the 1 torp disparity is going to be most noticable. So it becomes an incredibly bad matchup to play for either side--the Rom is at a big disadvantge without the cloak, and with the cloak, the Rom is skating the hairy edge of non agression an awful lot.

>> Really that is part of the problem - it's not just the TKE that is boring, it's really the specific TKE vs. Gorn matchup. Even vs. other Roms, it's not quite so boring because the cloak timer encourages you to not cloak, and knowing you can't cloak, you have to adopt a slightly different approach. >>

That might be the case. At which point, the answer becomes that the TKE needs to have a cloak limit vs the Gorn as well. If the Rom can play and win without excessive cloaking vs other Romulans, it can probably do the same vs the Gorn.

>>But then I think all plasma vs. plasma matches are snoozefests. It's just that in the TKE you go slow and cloak, in the other plasma ships you fly around in circles, but neither is really any more aggressive, even if in the "traditional" ballet you go faster, you aren't being more aggressive if you spend most of that time running around. >>

Going fast, even if you are going away, is still, by the defenition of the rules, playing agressively--even if on turn N, I am running away at speed 31, on turn

N+1, I can just as easily come around and rush at you at speed 31. Conversely, if the Romulan stops and cloaks on turn N, on turn N+1, the likelyhood of continuing to be stopped and cloaked is very high due to the disadvantages of being stopped and cloaked in the first place.

>>The main difference with the TKE is that you only have armed weapons about 2/3 as often.>>

Which is why the ship cloaks a lot. Which is why it is bad for the tournament overall. Not because it is too powerful or not, but because it is the ship voted "Most Likely To Require the Non Agression Rules to be Referenced". Which is bad for the game.

-Peter

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 09:59 pm: Edit

"That might be the case. At which point, the answer becomes that the TKE needs to have a cloak limit vs the Gorn as well. If the Rom can play and win without excessive cloaking vs other Romulans, it can probably do the same vs the Gorn."

Pete, one problem...the gorn has MORE phasers than the Roms...and two bays. The TKE would get hammered IMO.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Honestly, i think there should be a cloak limit in all games (not just for cloak vs cloak). Details not important to me (I understand the limit might have to be greater than the cloak-vs-cloak limit), but I think some sort of limit would help alleviate some of the cloak-fighting frustration being described here. This is a more general comment (not limited to TKE).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Mark wrote: >>Pete, one problem...the gorn has MORE phasers than the Roms...and two bays. The TKE would get hammered IMO.>>

Which is fine, as the Romulans have *three* ships to choose from (which, really, is kind of my point here). If the TKE has a bad matchup with the Gorn, so be it. The TKE is a ship that started out weak, got upgraded a couple times, and now is just viable enough in most matchups to be worth flying in a general sense, assuming you are willing to cloak alot in a whole lot of matchups. As cloaking a lot is bad for the game, and the TKE more or less has to cloak a lot, the math equals the TKE being bad for the game.

I'm certainly with Ken, in that I think that an absolute cloak limit for *all* games (not just cloak vs cloak) would go a long way towards fixing many of the "non agression" issues, but as mentioned before, I suspect that if there was an absolute cloak limit in all games, fighting the Romulan would become mostly a

game of "make them cloak till they run out of time, and then kill them". Kind of extreme, yeah, but likely.

-Peter

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 10:40 pm: Edit

Quote:

And the non agression rules specifically say "cloaking is, by defenition, non agression".

I went and reread T-2000 looking for such rules. I don't find them. What I do find is a rule that says "It is a cloaked ship's responsibility to engage. The cloaked ship cannot wander around the map waiting for his opponent to waste his weapons."

The non-aggression rules do not say "there is a certain way that the game is meant to be played and if you don't play 'right' then you are showing poor sportsmanship." What the rules actually say is that there is a limited amount of time for tournament games (not really even as much the case on SFBOL) and that if you adopt a strategy of stalling for time, hoping to get an adjudication in your favor, or waiting for your opponent to get bored, THAT is showing poor sportsmanship.

What the rules do NOT say is that the cloak-equipped ship is obligated to avoid using the cloak when there is a legitimate reason to, in the name of "aggression."

Fact is, the plasma ballet is far less "aggressive" than 99% of the viable cloaking-oriented tactics out there. When you lob that torpedo, you know that it is going to hit for maybe 10 damage, often less, sometimes none. That's fine. You are still scoring damage on your opponent, however slowly, and - this is the key point - you are doing it without forcing him to give up some material advantage of his own in the hopes of speeding up the game. No matter what the opponent does that plasma will still be coming. And when the TKE comes out of cloak - the plasma will still be coming. It will just be coming one turn later than some arbitrary standard says is proper (but it will do more damage when it hits).

Remember the 1994 Hat game that went 25 turns (against the Fed, no less; you can be sure he was being aggressive) or the one in about 2000 with Gorn vs. ISC that went 18 (where neither ship had a cloaking device). These are a lot longer than any TKE game I've ever played.

One final example:

The tactics that someone - I think Paul Scott - used a few years ago as Romulan TFH vs Orion, where the intent was to wait for the Orion to burn out his engines. This is stalling for time, but it is stalling for time *with the intent of damaging your opponent* - not stalling for time hoping to run out the clock. And thus it is within the rules, even though my any reasonable standard, the aggressiveness factor was lacking.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 01:52 am: Edit

OK, I did find the quote, which I quoted above, in the non-aggression PDF on the site, though it's not in T2000. But I would add that by the time the PDF is done with all the qualifications and legal reasons to cloak, it basically says the same thing as my post, heh.

Really I think the gray area isn't cloak vs. uncloak because there is no sane way anyone could cloak for four turns. The meaningful issue is "parking" vs. "going slow." OK, so speed 0 is parking. And speed 15 is not. What about speed 1, speed 4, speed 8?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 07:53 am: Edit

IMO, "advancing into combat" at a rate slow enough to weasel or contingency cloak is contrary to the spirit of the non-aggression rules. The fact that it is not against the letter of said rules is why I don't play Tourney SFB anymore.

By David Cheng (Davec) on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:51 am: Edit

Quote:

Really I think the gray area isn't cloak vs. uncloak because there is no sane way anyone could cloak for four turns.

I can think of lots of times when cloaking for longer than 3 turns would make plenty of sense...

1) I am trying to outguess my opponent. I think he thinks I'm coming out of cloak this turn, so he's all ready with overloads. I'll stay under and watch him burn the power. I'll try to use the turn to use maneuver to come out in a more favorable board position.

2) I am deliberately trying to frustrate my opponent to do something rash, like Alpha me while under cloak. I can then uncloak vs empty guns.

3) I am an unskilled, or timid player. I'm hesitant to come out and take my punishment. I have yet to learn (or am now learning the hard way) that the most

difficult thing about using the cloak is the vulnerability while uncloaking.

-DC

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Quote:

IMO, "advancing into combat" at a rate slow enough to weasel or contingency cloak is contrary to the spirit of the non-aggression rules.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this point, unless SVC or somebody shows up to answer definitively. I don't see anything in the rules that says anything about "there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game; if you go too slow, you're violating gaming etiquette." What they say is "you can't waste everyone's time hoping your opponent will do something stupid out of frustration, or hoping the judge will rule in your favor and save you having to fight."

My litmus test is: If the opponent just stopped and did nothing, would what you are doing kill him? If so, whatever you're doing is fine.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Besides, slow speed is common in the tournament IIRC. Most people just wait a while...

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 10:24 pm: Edit

""Really I think the gray area isn't cloak vs. uncloak because there is no sane way anyone could cloak for four turns."

I can think of one right off...

You start arming your F's, then stagger the other plasmas, to keep your speed up, arm your phasers etc. This would require a minimum of four turns...

"Which is fine, as the Romulans have *three* ships to choose from (which, really, is kind of my point here). If the TKE has a bad matchup with the Gorn, so be it. The TKE is a ship that started out weak, got upgraded a couple times, and now is just viable enough in most matchups to be worth flying in a general sense, assuming you are willing to cloak alot in a whole lot of matchups. As cloaking a lot is bad for the game, and the TKE more or less has to cloak a lot, the math equals the TKE being bad for the game." -Sure I can live with that...

Funny thing is that in all the games I've played (vs cloak), like maybe one went real slow because of its use. Most times I find the other person is working real hard to get where he isn't automatically killed when he pops out...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 10:44 am: Edit

William wrote: >>I went and reread T-2000 looking for such rules. I don't find them.>>

From the Rules for Non Agression PDF (which, irritatingly, has seemed to have vanished from the web site since the facelift...):

CLOAKING is by definition non-aggressive, but (like the above) is ok to reload and conduct a few repairs and, within limits, get into a firing position. It is not legal to cruise around, cloaked and holding plasmas or overloads, and refuse to uncloak until the enemy tried to shoot at your cloaked ship and missed.

>>The non-aggression rules do not say "there is a certain way that the game is meant to be played and if you don't play 'right' then you are showing poor sportsmanship.">>

No, they do not. But they do say that a given player has a limited amount of time in a given game to use non agressive tactics (starcastling, retrograde, or cloaking). And if they use up this time, and then keep going, they should be adjudicated against.

My only point in this here particular discussion (which for my money is about the TKE and non non agressive play in general) is that the TKE is specifically designed (likely unintentionally) to have to cloak a lot do do well in a lot of games. As the tournament rules on one hand specifically try to limit the amount of time that once cloaks while at the same time having a ships that exists to cloak as much as possible, there is an incongruity that leads to trouble. Having a blanket cloak limit for the game might help, but then so would getting rid of the TKE.

>>What the rules do NOT say is that the cloak-equipped ship is obligated to avoid using the cloak when there is a legitimate reason to, in the name of "aggression.">>

And yet it does say that cloaking too much is grounds for adjudication. Cloaking when necessary here and there is par for the course with Romulans. Cloaking excessively, which is par for the course for the TKE (because of the way it is designed), is bad for the game.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Given that, when facing seeking weapon armed ships, there is no practical difference between being able to cloak/weasel at a moment's notice and actually being cloaked/under weasel, it is pretty cut-and-dried to me.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 01:00 am: Edit

Cloaking tactically is, to a certain extent, about game speed. The problem is it is not something the cloaker often controls. I, for example, am a very fast player. I can easily finish 15 turn games in the 3-4 hour range. If, that is, my opponent is also playing at a reasonable pace.

I have, however, been in the opposite situation where I have been cloaking for position (or as mentioned above as part of a guessing game with an Orion trying to make him burn up) but where my opponent has played slowly. At the end of the day, however, it is the cloaker who will pay for his opponent's speed if only 6 turns go by in 3 hours and the cloaker has spent 3-4 of those cloaked.

If only they would add a chess clock to SFB... ;)

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 09:35 am: Edit

"but where my opponent has played slowly"

*cough* *cough* Tos *cough*

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 02:35 pm: Edit

So SVC posted a "Judges may use Judgement to end Non Agression" message just below in the "Tournament Rulings" header. To presumably dissuade the "I'm attacking you at speed 4 for 10 turns in a row..." tactic, which I can't say I disagree with.

This being said, I'd like to see the ruling operate in the same way as the current non agression rules, i.e. if it seems to be a good idea, tactically speaking, to stop and tac or move in reverse or move slow for a couple turns, you can, but you can't play the whole game like that. The current non agression rules (which have unfortunately seem to have gone missing since the site facelift) state:

1. After 1 turn of non agression, give your opponent a warning. 2. After 2 continuous turns of non agression, get a judge to hand out an official warning. 3. After 3 turns of non agression, judge gives iminent warning. 4. After 4 turns of non agression, game adjudicated in favor of agressive player.

The rule indicates that non agressive play is cloaking, retrograding, and starcastling. The new ruling adds the nebulous "generally slow and non agressive" to the list, which, again, strikes me as reasonable, but due to the nebulous nature and need for a judge to use judgement, I'd prefer to see it handled like above (as

opposed to the current "two turns and you are hosed" ruling). Otherwise, every time someone stops to weasel, even in the most reasonable situations (you are caught in a corner and your opponent just launched 100 points of plasma, say), the Judge will be invoked.

The standard non agression rules do a good job of saying:

A) You need to be agressive and take the fight to your opponent.

and

B) You can stop and retrograde if you need to once and a while, but not for the whole game.

-Peter

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 03:37 pm: Edit

I like the more flexible "know it when you see it" interpretation SVC just handed down. I can easily see (it has happened to me) being cloaked for 5 consecutive turns, yet not at all being "non-aggressive." The cloak is not intended to be a death sentence and sometimes my opponents are very good about staying with me under cloak (and if I can say without too much immodesty, I am one of the better players when it comes to moving to gain separation under cloak). In such cases, being cloaked while your opponent scores shield hits (or occasionally internals) is punishment enough without having a 4 turn clock over your head as well.

I can see a situation developing without the cloak as well where prolonged stopping or slow movement is just the right thing to do. Being aggressive does not mean committing suicide. Dogmatic adherence to a four turn clock could certainly result in that. Steve's new interpretation seems to deal well with non-aggression.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Paul wrote: >>Dogmatic adherence to a four turn clock could certainly result in that. Steve's new interpretation seems to deal well with non-aggression.>>

I wasn't really talking about dogmatic adherence to a 4 turn clock. Just a 4 turn sequence, rather than the 2 turn sequence as presented in the recent ruling. If the current ruling is taken literally, whenever your opponent stops or cloaks or moves slower that you want them to, you have the authority to call the judge and compell them to use their judgement. Yeah, if you are calling them over for something stupid, the judge will just be like "you're being stupid". But given the 4 turn sequence of the original non agression rules, instead of immediately calling the judge to sumarily adjudicate your opponent, you say "hey, stop that" on the

first turn, then have the judge say "hey, stop that" on the second turn, and then have the judge say "no, really, stop that" on the third turn, and then "that's it--out of the pool" on the 4th, and as noted, all under the auspice of the judges judgement.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Problem with the 4 turn thing is that that style of play tends to result in slower games. i.e., you may not get through all 4 turns (post-warning) before the time limit. I actually like the 2 turn thing. i.e., nip it in the bud.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 06:01 pm: Edit

I don't think anybody would argue that you shouldn't park, weasel, or cloak for a single turn. Doing either of these for one turn often means doing them for a second turn. This is not non-aggression, it's just the way these things work. Nobody should be disqualified for that.

The new guidelines don't resolve all the gray areas. IMO, they probably introduce some new ones. What they do achieve is empower the judges to be more aggressive in enforcing the aggression rules. You can now be disqualified after only one warning, based on past behavior. The old doctrine of "anything that happens before the judge is called doesn't count" is out the window. This is the biggest improvement in the new style.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Sheap. I have to disagree with the summary of your first statement. Subsequent turns of parking, weaseling and/or cloaking are definitely under more scrutiny now.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 07:06 pm: Edit

I'm waiting for Jason Gray's response, personally...

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 07:18 pm: Edit

I hate this ruling. I think the Turtle is defeatable. I have a long post on hear saying how I would defeat it, then I played Jason, did exactly that and won.

I rest my case.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 08:57 pm: Edit

Larry, I agree it is deflatable. I'd go further and say that in most circumstances I prefer if my opponent turtles, because the game is far more certain with dice mostly taken out of the equation. That said, defeating it is boring and does take a long time. I am not sure it is good for the environment, especially for a game struggling for new blood, to reward dull play.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Response coming!! Just not the right time yet.

-Jason G

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 11:10 pm: Edit

I strongly oppose any attempt to use this ruling to mandate orthodoxy in tactics. When people start saying "my opponent went slow for two turns therefore I win," the possible tactical options are reduced so much that there ceases to be any purpose to the game.

Judges are empowered to rule against turtle tactics, without going through the lengthy formal procedure, and without the turtler having to meet the legal definitions of "starcastling" as long as a pattern of non-aggression is apparent. But there has to be that pattern. If you are just waiting your opponent out, that's not ok, and you need to be more aggressive. But if going speed > 4 is going to get you killed, then you can park, as long as you attack again when the danger has passed.

Whether something is non-aggression is still not always going to be obvious, but there is no point in making it worse than it has to be, by attempting to use it as a weapon. The whole point of the non aggression rules are that you do not get to have the judge kill your opponent for you.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:37 am: Edit

[Game pending adjudication; remarks are totally inappropriate and should never have been posted.]

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:54 am: Edit

[Game pending adjudication; remarks are totally inappropriate and should never have been posted.]

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 01:01 am: Edit

[Game pending adjudication; remarks are totally inappropriate and should never have been posted.]

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 01:49 am: Edit

Jason, was the Orion re-arming plasma torps under cloak?

What kept you from firing phaser-1s while the Orion was cloaking and you (presumably) had movement precedence?

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 02:11 am: Edit

[Game pending adjudication; not suitable for comment at this time.]

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 02:12 am: Edit

I watched the entire game. I'll comment once I know the ruling has been made.

Until then, since i am a player in the tournament and not a judge, and this was not my game, it would not be appropriate for me to comment. Frankly I think that is true of anyone, but I don't control what other people do.

By Ken Rotar (Krotar) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 02:31 am: Edit

I have given the judges my comments and the game files. I don't think it is appropriate that I, or anyone else, comment in public about our game until a ruling is made.

All I will say is that while Sir Hood's facts may be mostly accurate, they completely paint an inaccurate picture of events, resulting in a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened in the game.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 09:33 am: Edit

Regardless of the specifics of this particular game, I am wondering what effect the current ruling will have on games vs the Orion in general--as Jason posted in the Origins thread, if this ruling is taken literally, his example is totally something that could happen:

T1: Orion doubles everything and charges. Opponent corner dodges to avoid getting killed by doubled Orion. Orion alerts judge immediately that his opponent is being non agressive.

T2: Orion doubles everything. Opponent stops and parks, bracing for Orion impact. Orion leaves, and has judge adjudicate against parked opponent at end of turn.

Or whatever--historically, parking has been one of the only viable ways for many ships to even have a *chance* against the Orion. I'm not saying that one should spend the whole game parked or anything, but on that vital first pass vs an Orion, parking is very often the best (if not only) chance many ships have to not just get killed outright.

Many games vs the Orion tend to look like this, historically speaking:

T1: Orion doubles, opponent corner dodges. T2: Orion doubles, opponent parks. Orion makes best attack run it can and leaves. T3: Opponent speeds up, Orion runs and reloads. T4: Opponent may park again, Orion may or may not attack again. and so on.

Which is one of the reasons that I was supporting the 4 turn sequence as presented in the original Non Agression rules--being stopped/slow/non agressive for 2 turns against, say, the Orion is just par for the course (and often the only possibility of just not getting killed outrigt), but being stopped/slow/non agressive

for 4 turns against the Orion is probably an indication that something questionable is afoot.

I mean, yeah, a huge caveat in this ruling is the the Judge is to use his Judgement, which is good, but that means that the Judge needs to Judge that (in the first two turns of non agression as noted above) non agression is ok against the Orion, where it might not be ok against someone else, say. Which is a tricky judgement.

Which again, is why I think the 4 turn sequence is probably better for all purposes.

There have been mentions that 4 turns might be too long, but if your opponent is being non agressive, and you are avoiding him 'cause he is being non agressive, those 4 turns are gonna go awfully quickly...

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 09:42 am: Edit

I see being non-aggressive against a fully doubled Orion being an exception to the rule.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:07 am: Edit

I see it as "Judges wouldn't be judges if they were stupid; they can use some common sense." This kind of situation is one reason there cannot be any kind of "if you go four turns doing X, you are..." because there are too many exceptions.

The "come and get me, you get to do all the work, spend all the energy, and I get to do all the damage" tactic is bad for the game, not to mention unsportsmanlike and just ugly. I know more than one person who walked off from games due to the enemy using this tactic.

It's not one person doing it, but in future, nobody does it. The thing I'm going to be starting the judges meeting with this year is "Why the hell did you guys let this crap happen last year without coming to me then instead of now?"

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:24 am: Edit

To me this is easy. I will bring up the worst adjudication in the history of SFB as far as I am concerned.

Paul Kramer's entire 1995 GH strategy was to move at very slow speed with Cloak mostly paid for, Launch plasma as soon as the enemy got within 15 and cloak if if enemy ever got within 8. He beat a lot of frustrated players doing this. Then he fought Tom in the round of 8. Tom refused to engage. 3 hours and 12ish

turns later, when neither player had any substantial damage, the judges found in favor of Kramer.

You all keep talking about these awful scenarios where opponents are expected to commit suicide. Steve's ruling is very clearly not trying to prevent reasonable defensive posturing. You are not going to be stopped from parking or moving slow - even for 3-5 turns. You are not going to be stopped from cloaking - even for 3 - 5 turns. You are going to be stopped from engaging in a total game plan that involves taking advantage of the time limits and general desire of your opponent to have fun while playing a game by doing little other than moving extremely slow and expecting that your opponent hurl itself against your shields.

This is about (as I am reading it) total picture. Not about specific game situations.

By Robert Grey (Tugger) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:54 am: Edit

Paul, I very much hope you are right. Having a judge step in after a patten of behavior, doesn't worry me. Having a judge call in cause I played with caution for one turn...

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:07 pm: Edit

== Personally, in my experience, I think we can count on the ADB Judges to be fair and reasonable. Everyone makes mistakes, but I have had NO complaints with the caliber of Judges I've seen at Origins.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:17 pm: Edit

"You are going to be stopped from engaging in a total game plan that involves taking advantage of the time limits and general desire of your opponent to have fun while playing a game by doing little other than moving extremely slow and expecting that your opponent hurl itself against your shields."

That would pretty much cover it.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 01:20 pm: Edit

With all due respect to SVC, I feel this is the wrong approach (and I do not know the right approach). The Orion (and to some degree the Romulan) player is not like any other opponent. Games played against these opponents require extreme patience (often hoping the enemy will make a power allocation error resulting in a weakened position on the next turn). Depending on one's opponent, tactics vary . . . and patience is often very necessary. For the sake of time-restricted events (like Origins), I can see the need for this rule, but it over-rides fair play for players that truly feel tactics may require less aggression that will lead to victory. Forcing (lets say the Orion) to be more aggressive is almost as bad as forcing (lets say the Kzinti) to be more aggressive. Both tactics are completely different, one burns out engines quickly, the other can't fire through the brick and/or the

cloak. Patience is a virtue and frankly I would be opposed to have a judge come up to me and tell me to hurry it up, attack-attack-attack. If its not my tactic, why am I playing? Again, as I said earlier, for time restricted events such as Origins, I can see the need for something, but it is truly changing the way people play. "Balance of Terror" (perhaps not the best example) was indeed a great example of patience winning out, mistakes costing lives, luck prevailing. Battles are sometimes stressed for time, other times not. Even our history has shown battles that have lasted long periods of time because it was necessary to be patient, waiting for a mistake. Again, I don't have any answers to the "time-constrained" events, but forcing a player to change tactics from which he's self-taught himself for years, simply because its more convenient . . . I just don't feel that's one of them. Sorry if I pissed off anyone.

Note: In Tournament, I have neither played nor opposed against an Orion or Romulan. On a personal note, I can't stand the Orions and don't like plasma weapons much, but it doesn't bias me against the fairness of operating these ships with undue pressure. A tournament is a skill of personal tactics vs personal tactics. To force someone to change their tactics because of time restraints, is changing the way you play. Perhaps if this situation does develop and both players are unwilling to engage in a situation similiar to everything being discussed, a draw may be declared by the judge, scoring a half point for each. 'course, this can be abused as well, but I feel this would be the lesser of two evils. Not all combats result in a victory to either side.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Unfortunately, time limits exist to expidite the motion of the tournament. Ideally, there should be no time limits. But you only have 1 weekend in a FtF tourney and youmay have an issue if you have a player or two that make it into the finals bracket playing a "long" game style.

SFBOL is different because those issues are not that big a deal barring scheduling difficulties. [Game pending adjudication; not suitable for comment at this time.]

But my whole take in the thing is that we're here to play and it's not fun for anyone if players noodle around. Granted you're going to get some of that style of play when somebody wants to play it safe and wait for the other guy to screw up and there's nothing wrong with that. But there comes a point where it becomes silly. You're there to beat the other guy up. Have you ever watched a boxing match where both fighters circle each other the entire round and never land a punch? Not me. Tourney SFB should be the same way. I'm not saying run right at each other and exchange alphas at point blank range, but it's a FIGHT for crying out loud!

By Ken Rotar (Krotar) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 01:52 pm: Edit

This ruling has nothing to do with a particular matchup or a particular game. It is about a style of play that has been used at times over the years, but has recently become standard play for a few individuals. It is bad for SFB because it makes the game boring and frustrating, and it often ends up with the opponent doing something unwise out of sheer frustration. Yes, it is beatable, but it is not easy or fun to do for even the best of players.

Most importantly, it is not a difficult strategy to employ, and hence it can end up rewarding less skilled players. This is perhaps the most frustrating aspect of the 'turtle.'

Many comments are being made about how the nonaggression rule will be abused. Let's get this straight: the rule against nonaggression has been there for several years. Page 9, comment 6, of the tournament manual clearly states that all players are expected to engage the enemy aggressively throughout the game, and to not do so will virtually disqualify that player. The only problem for judges was that nonaggression was only defined with a few examples, and without clearly tangible legal text, judges were unable/unwilling to make a judgment against some nonaggressive players. Now they are being told USE COMMON SENSE! Yes, we will need to rely on judges, but overall I trust them more than I do the judgments of certain opponents who will try to find anyway to get an advantage by manipulation of the spirit of the rules.

Needless to say, Orions are one of the ships most affected by this rule because when a person parks against any other ship, if there is no engagement in the turn, neither ship will be hurt very much. On the other hand if a ship parks against the Orion making it suicide for the Orion to come in, the turn will end with no one being harmed except the Orion who will have lost engines. On the other hand, sometimes parking is the only defense against the Orion. The difference is when a ship avoids combat in one way or another against the Orion not because it NEEDS to, but because it simply WANTS to make the Orion burn engines. The easiest way to determine this is to see how long the opponent ship tries to avoid combat, and whether it was necessary for that particular ship's survival. For example, after a couple turns of doubling, the combat effectiveness of an Orion drops significantly; at that point, it is hardly necessary for a completely fresh ship to feel that it must continue to park or flee in order to survive (unless of course, it is the player, and not the ship, that is the real weakness).

Common sense is the key to determining nonaggression. A person could 'turtle' against any ship every turn and make an argument that there was some threat they were afraid of, that necessitated moving slowly throughout the game. This is ludicrous. The game is meant to be bloody, the game is full of risks, and combat victory should never be guaranteed.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Therefore, instead of arbitraily (sp) declaring a winner, declare a draw. The half win won't benefit the player much who is behind in points, which would motivate him to be more aggressive. Again, nothing of this is the perfect solution, I just don't feel taking away one's tactics is the best either.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Glenn: The only tactic being taken away is one that nobody should be using (starcastle at speed four).

There isn't time in tournaments to declare a draw and start over. Are you really going to tell two guys (or sixteen guys) at Origins that they have to change their airline reservations, pay for another night's hotel bill, all because the judges were, under "the Hoepfner Rule" required to declare a draw?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 03:40 pm: Edit

I have been deleting comments from the two players that should not have been posted. The game is under review by the judges and they will decide. Judicial proceedings are NEVER done in public, nor are they subject to review by a "committee of one player's buddies".

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 03:42 pm: Edit

I should comment that the "judges use their judgement" rule does not overturn or change previous rules and guidelines. It simply says "we cannot write a rule for every possible combination of circumstances so use your JUDGEMENT." I don't remember if there is a time limit on cloaking; if there is, it didn't change. I don't think there is a rule on an Orion taking all ADDs to make himself drone proof, but if there is, I didn't change it.

I don't really care if people would have picked different ships if they had known we were no longer going to put up with violating the rules. If you picked a ship based on getting away with breaking the rules, you made your own bunk and you can lie in it.

I don't see this doing anything to normal tactics. There is a world of difference between "Oh my God, he's coming straight at me, I better put power into shields even if I have to slow down" and "I'm going to go real slow, put power into sheilds, and let him come get me.". Judges can tell the difference.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Expanding the non-aggression definition to include certain cases where someone is moving (but still basically starcastling), is OK. Giving judges more leeway to apply common sense to determine which situations constitute non-aggression, is fine.

Changing the non-aggression adjudication from a 4 turn process to a 2 turn process is a TERRIBLE ruling. It has the potential to do enormous damage to the

game. It encourages players to go whine to the judge rather than adjust to opponent tactics. It invalidates sound tactics. It will lead to more disputes over non-aggression, not fewer.

The basic problem I see here is that on the one hand, you are telling judges to use common sense. On the other hand, you are creating a situation where following the letter of the rule violates common sense.

The example of the charging Orion illustrates this clearly. If I park and wait for him to charge, clearly I am being non-aggressive. My opponent can call the judge, and next turn I must not stop, move slower than some speed (5? 8?), cloak or move away from my oppponent. Since my opponent knows that my options are severely limited, he can come up with an approach that guarantees a victory.

Does the judge say "Well, common sense dictates that taking a defensive posture in this circumstance is a reasonable tactic, so this is not stalling"? Or does the judge say "Well, common sense dictates that by parking and waiting for your opponent to charge, you are fitting the very definition of non-aggression, so therefore I must give a warning"?

In the past, my parking could still set in motion the non-aggression rules. I would have to have a plan to get going again - I am not free to just park and wait for him to either charge me or burn up his engines. But since I have a few turns of flexibility, I have options. Since I have options, my opponent must think about his tactics - does he double and charge, and risk that I will "set my pike" and park again? Does he play more conservatively and risk that I will be able to get my speed back up? In other words, it's an interesting game.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 04:08 pm: Edit

And let me echo Larry's comment. The turtle is eminently beatable. If your opponent insists on following that one tactic every turn, you should be able to win easily. If you can't, it's because your tactics suck, not because your opponent was exploiting some loophole in the rules.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 04:26 pm: Edit

I am not seeing this "two turn process" anywhere in anything I said. To convince a judge that your opponent is being non-aggressive is going to take more than one turn.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Seems to me that the problem here is judges who won't make rulings, rather than the tactic itself. If judges were more aggressive (so to speak) in calling non-aggression, then people wouldn't use it so often.

The issue with publishing "guidelines" for defining non-aggression is that it will

just raise the bar for minimum activity; it won't make turtles not do it. If you have to move at least six hexes a turn to avoid "non-aggressive behavior", then players will produce speed plots that move exactly six hexes a turn (and you'll get plenty of arguments about what exactly constitutes movement--does a TAC or HET count as a hex of movement? If an ED right now would keep me from moving six hexes am I prevented from doing it? And so on.) If you must fire at least one weapon, you'll get players who fire a single phaser-3 on Impulse #1 and spend the rest of the turn with full overloads held. Players will still turtle, it's just that they'll turtle at a slightly higher level than they used to.

Andy: The point isn't that the turtle is "beatable", the point is that beating it is a long-term attrition process which A: they haven't got the time for at Origins, and B: is super-boring to watch.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 05:18 pm: Edit

1.) I trust my judges or they would not be judges.

2.) If someone calls a judge over to look at the opponent for delaying the game, they had better be prepared to have the judge look at him for delay of game as well.

3.) There is no way to write a rule that will define what non-aggression is because:

a.) The different technologies employed by the different races results in widely varying arming cycles and different systems.

b.) Ships begin a given round in one state, and later in the game are in a different state due to damage to sheilds and systems.

c.) Tactics change. Your opponent can be using a new tactic you have never seen before resulting in either one of you responding in the current circumstance with a degree of caution.

4.) It would be like the much ballyhooed concept that we should have a rule that a player can never operate in reverse. Yet a player whose ship has his forward shields down and his rear shields still up would be operating in an aggressive manner if he was trying to approach his opponent with armed weapons and going in reverse to use his rear shields. That obviously does not constitute a retrograde and would not be ruled as such. Circumstances will dictate appropriate tactics.

5.) There is no way to tie things to "speed 4" simply because someone may move speed 4 for 8 impulses and then accelerate. Perhaps with battery power, to move faster than speed 4 for a few impulses. Or have plotted a fast-slow-fast or slow-fast-slow energy plot to avoid being "speed 4". And again, late in a game, the choice may be between being able to arm one more phaser or move one more

hex. The circumstances of the ships change as they accumulate damage and deplete weapons. Creating a rule that says you must move a set speed or expend some percentage of your power for movement or anything else will not stand for the whole course of a given combat. It is not possible without in essence creating a tome larger than the existing Master Rulebook to cover every possible contingency.

6.) So it is going to come down to the judges will look at what is going on if called and will make a call. But those calls are going to be made based on the situation as the judges see it. We understand that are times when you have to move slow (no one is going to require the Lyran to move speed 16 and allow the Kzinti drones to catch him rather than decelerating and launching his weasel).

7.) But understand this: ANYONE who says "I am just waiting for my opponent to make a mistake" or "I will just sit here or move very slowly until my opponent has to charge into my guns" has lost the discussion. Initiative will shift back and forth in a given game, and if we perceive that you have voluntarily surrendered it while your guns are loaded, that will be seen as non-aggression.

Nothing in SVC's ruling creates a new "two turn dynamic". What he said was: - - - - - SVC: ...call a judge at the end of a turn. - - - - - Note, at the end of "a" turn. Nothing says that you get to do this after one turn of non-aggression; calling the judge at the end of "a" turn is just a matter of having a convenient transition point. If someone is told "you better start being aggressive" he won't be able to do much about it until after the next Energy Allocation Phase. Also note that it will (obviously) take more than one turn of non-agression to show a pattern that the judge will officially recognize. Further: - - - - - SVC: If the judge agrees, he will issue a warning. (If the player who is warned disputes the warning, he can call for a triumvirate to confirm or lift the warning.) - - - - - Note that no one judge can arbitrarily do anything. If the case for non-aggression is questionable, it won't stand up to a three-judge panel. Further. - - - - - SVC: If the tactic continues for one more turn, the judge may end the game - - - - - MAY end the game, not WILL end the game. Even then, it would have to stand up to a three-judge panel. (Would anyone who is not guilty not appeal? Most of those who ARE guilty will certainly appeal.) Or, the judge might 'continue' the warning, or remove it. Judges aren't stupid and can tell a reloading turn from a stalling turn.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Someday, when i'm not getting ready for Origins, I'll have to go read the existing

non-aggression procedure. However, the "new" ruling doesn't change it; it just says that the judges CAN USE THEIR COMMON SENSE in defining non-aggression. Or it should if it wasn't confusing.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 05:33 pm: Edit

SPP/SVC

My main concern isn't Origins stalling/non aggression. It would be all the little local tourneys, that only contact ADB once or twice a year, and don't have an "ADB Certified" judge.

Or what about those groups that simply play tourney regularly without actually going to a tourney? I'm trying to look at something to hang my hat on to avoid potential arguments. (Much like SPP has pounded into my head over Shield galaxy stuff.)

I know it when I see it for ADB/SPP/SVC isn't going to help in those other cases. (Or many others not mentioned.) There will need to be "something" for a non certified judge to fall back on. Which then creates the problem of defining the minimum situation for or against.

Believe me I'm not trying to make a problem worse. But I am trying to play devils advocate to bring potential problems up for consideration.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Playing devil's advocate 48 hours and 20 minutes before we leave for Origins isn't something I can deal with. After Origins, we can discuss that. You can, I am sure, deal for a week or two. I'm not ignoring your issue; it's just not TODAY'S issue.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 05:49 pm: Edit

SPP wrote: >>Nothing in SVC's ruling creates a new "two turn dynamic". What he said was: - - - - - SVC: ...call a judge at the end of a turn. >>

Now that that has been clarified, it all looks very solid. (At first impression, the ruling seemed to indicate a "two turn dynamic", but upon clarification and rereading, I see where y'all are coming from).

Thanks, -Peter

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 05:58 pm: Edit

SVC,

Ok I'll make sure to raise my points after Origins. The only reason I raised them now is that "now" is when the controversy occurred.

Mostly the tactics I use avoid even the potential of being non aggressive. Except when I do ISC.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Steve Cole:

existing non-agression procedure is in Cap Log 22 page 20.

By Ken Rotar (Krotar) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 06:12 pm: Edit

What does it say, for those of us who don't have access to it?

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 06:17 pm: Edit

SVC,

Thanks for making it clear that your ruling did not overturn the 4-turn process. Some time later, when you have the time, it would be nice to incorporate it into the existing non-aggression guidelines so that this is clarified.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 06:56 pm: Edit

The guidelines are also here: http://starfleetgames.com/sfb/tournament/Non-Agression.pdf

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Remind me after Origins to update the whole judge manual and put it on line.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 10:19 pm: Edit

SVC, I'm not expecting an answer before Origins (as busy as you are) however, to answer your question, "There isn't time in tournaments to declare a draw and start over. Are you really going to tell two guys (or sixteen guys) at Origins that they have to change their airline reservations, pay for another night's hotel bill, all because the judges were, under "the Hoepfner Rule" required to declare a draw?"

I didn't mean to imply that the players would start over, only that it might be possible to split the win (half point each, much like in Chess Tournaments). However, based on further comments made on this board, I'm already outvoted

on this, and that's perfectly fine for me. No ego bruised here. On a side note, if there is ever a "Hoepfner Rule", I wouldn't want this rule to be it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 12:59 am: Edit

I think that anyone with a two turn arming weapon might legitimately be fairly non-agressive for two turns but should be albe to be highly agressive by the third

turn (holding OL's). This is a very Fed photon tactic.

Plasma users might need to get agressive on their fourth turn after unloading their whole wad of torps.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 02:47 am: Edit

I see being non-aggressive against a fully doubled Orion being an exception to the rule. So non agressive against a fully loaded Gorn is a violation of the rules but non-agression against a fully doubled orion is okay???

You're there to beat the other guy up. Have you ever watched a boxing match where both fighters circle each other the entire round and never land a punch? Not me. Actually Yes. Watch the boxing of the Olympics sometime (instead of a rocky movie) and you'll see huge periods of time like 2 minutes between punches being thrown, sometimes even an entire round will go by without a punch.

It is bad for SFB because it makes the game boring and frustrating, and it often ends up with the opponent doing something unwise out of sheer frustration. Yes, it is beatable, but it is not easy or fun to do for even the best of players.

Most importantly, it is not a difficult strategy to employ, and hence it can end up rewarding less skilled players. This is perhaps the most frustrating aspect of the 'turtle.' Really? The fact you hate most is that less skilled players can win. Who are you to judge!?! Does the Fed player get to be called a moron because he's flying a ship that has a pretty good chance of winning so long as he doesn't roll poorly??? If he wins it'll be because he didn't stuff up in his die rolls....which takes no intelgence. But to a degree, he took a ship he felt he could win with and I'll count that as smart!

The issue with publishing "guidelines" for defining non-aggression is that it will just raise the bar for minimum activity; it won't make turtles not do it...Players will still turtle, it's just that they'll turtle at a slightly higher level than they used to. I think I must disagree with that. If you must move speed 5 or six then you can't drop a WW without using ED (and suffering the 16 impulse post ED period). If the problem really is that the enemy can put up X specific shield reinforcement more than you and that relates to X internals more than you, then you need to start taking ships that actually have crunch-power. When the turtle moves fast and becomes an Armardillo, players should learn to beat it rather than compalin that it's non agressive.

Playing devil's advocate 48 hours and 20 minutes before we leave for Origins isn't

something I can deal with. After Origins, we can discuss that. To a certain degree using Judge's common sense at this Origins will shine a lot of light on the matter.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 03:08 am: Edit

I would like to make it clear that I find the idea that more skilled players should be protected from having a hard battle to win against a less skilled player, is the height of snobbery.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 03:20 am: Edit

mjc: "I think I must disagree with that. If you must move speed 5 or six then you can't drop a WW without using ED (and suffering the 16 impulse post ED period). "

Ahem. I discuss exactly that problem in the post you quoted.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 08:45 am: Edit

So non agressive against a fully loaded Gorn is a violation of the rules but non-agression against a fully doubled orion is okay??? A fully doubled Orion is doing, at speed 31, what the Gorn is doing at speed 4-8: engaging with the hope of you blowing all of your firepower on a brick that you'll be lucky to get through at all. Difference is, you have to actively avoid engaging the Orion due to that whole speed 31 thing. The key point is that no one should be forced to engage when their opponent has all of the chips stacked in their favor. The speed 4-8 Gorn has the advantage in an engagement just as the fully doubled Orion does.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 09:21 am: Edit

MJC wrote: >>Actually you're right in that I don't play Tourney. >>

Then you are discussing an environment you aren't familiar with. Which leaves significant holes in your ability to present an argument.

>>But since Jason Gray is an Australian and won Origins with the move forward at speed 4 thing, I'ld hate to see new and different perspectives outlawed because they arn't a progression of the culture from which general play is developed. >>

That doesn't make any sense. As a concept:

A) This ruling is not an "Anti-Jason Gray" ruling.

B) People in Australia play SFBOL with folks from all over the world.

>>I can see something outlawed because it is "un-fun" but I'ld rather not see it outlawed because "I don't know how to defeat it so I want the game changed".

>>

This isn't an issue of "I don't know how to defeat it so I want the game changed". Everyone knows how to defeat it--play just as defensively and wait for your opponent to make a mistake. And in 20 turns, no one has any damage. In an environment where you need games to be over in 3-4 hours, that doesn't work.

-Peter

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Glenn: On a single-elim tree, there is no half point. You win and go to the next round, you lose and you go home.

Try to grasp this. Saturday morning, 9am, sixteen players are paired off and start eight games. At noon, 7 players have won, 7 have lost, and 2 have tied. At 1pm, we need to start eight players plaing four games, but we can't, since the two guys who tied have to play again. The entire tournament was just delayed four hours. EVERYBODY (who does not die) will, at some point, have to wait four hours for the games delayed by the guys who tied to catch up.

Olympic boxing: Understand, I think all boxing should be outlawed worldwide, but olympic boxing is so stilted as to be unwatchable.

Peter has a point. While it's not the ONLY way to define non-aggression, and isn't always non-aggression, if both players did what the violating player did, and the result would be "nothing ever happens", then it's bad for the game and the tactic should be outlawed.

Any tactic that boils down to "wait for the enemy to make a mistake" is NON-AGGRESSION -- AND YOU LOSE.

One year, we had some strange reason to say "no time limits" and had games going six hours as people circled 20 hexes apart chipping drones/plasmas at each other. We had to admit we were wrong on that one.

As for using it last year, I already said that the whole judge crew was going to be on the carpet explaining to me why they allowed it. I'm pretty upset that this crap was not shut down the first time players using it were warning to stop using it last year. But there was no "written definition" and the judges were reluctant to make the call based solely on common sense because they thought I would not want them to. This was, apparently, one of those "SVC created an atmosphere in which people were afraid to find out what he would say" which makes no sense to me given that last year was the best sales event ever and I was walking on clouds most of the time.

At least until I found the Hydrans in the F&E game taking an FRD on raids to

repair their ships in mid-raid. THAT one really pissed me off.

By David Cheng (Davec) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 12:49 pm: Edit

I spent significant time on a post yesterday afternoon, and it looks like it was deleted because of comments on the game that catalyzed the discussion and the new non-aggression ruling. I am now reposting with the game-specfic material deleted.

WHERE WAS THIS RULING TWICE BEFORE? WHY NOW?

The first time... In 2002, Paul Scott won the Gold Hat with the Orion. I remember Paul's very comprehensive Captain's Log #26 write-up. The narrative of his game against Bill Schoeller begins on page 85. It is pretty obvious that Bill is playing "non-aggressively" by our current definition, deliberately waiting for the Orion's engines to burn out.

Isn't this exactly what Jason/Hood was trying to do against Ken/Krotar more recently?

I don't see any mention in this article of Paul crying 'foul'. In the first paragraph of the article, Paul says things like "I was not really worried about this fight" and "I was not actually worried about the outcome of this game". This about a Fleet Captain opponent!

As I continue reading, the sense I get is that Paul feels Bill showed his skill by employing this strategy. It's almost like Paul thought it was Bill's only chance, given how confident Paul was at the beginning!

The second time... Last year (2006), Jason Gray won the Gold Hat Tournament by using the exact same tactics he is being sanctioned for now. Slow speeds, lots of reinforcement, ready to weasel.

There was a lot of debate here on the BBS about such tactics. But no ruling like the one just issued.

If this is such an objectionable tactic, why didn't this ruling come up soon after Origins 2006? Why now?

THE TOURNAMENT HAS ALREADY STARTED Related to 'why now?', is "Isn't it a bit late for this?"

If such a ruling was going to be in place for this, the Gold Hat National

Championship tournament, shouldn't it have come before the tournament started? Might it not have affected things like the players' ship selections, and plans for how they're going to fly their ship?

HOW SLOW IS TOO SLOW? There have already been posts about "the judge will know it when he sees it". Really? How slow an advance _toward_ the enemy is now too slow?

* "If you have power left for shield reinforcement, you're going too slow"? * "If you are not able to reach overload range from the enemy, you're going too slow"? * "Speed 8 is too slow, but 9 or more is OK"?

I will be the tournament judge at Council of Five Nations, what could be the biggest SFB tournament this year. If this ruling stands over time, I hope the powers that be give me better guidance on what is "too slow".

IS THE FED ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE TO THIS CRITICISM? Unless I'm forgetting something, the only tournament weapon that can be held in Overloaded mode is the Photon Torpedo. If Jason were not flying Fed, would we even be having this discussion?

IN CLOSING Some other reputable, multi-ace players have already posted their support of this new ruling. I disagree, not only about the ruling itself, but the timing of it as well. And as a tournament judge, I am especially concerned.

Dave Cheng

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Dave, Just so I am clear. I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but I never saw this ruling as anything other than telling the Judges to enforce a rule that has been around for a very long time and use common sense.

I completely agree with your comments about my game with Bill. Bill was using the cloak (which at that time was on a 4 turn clock in cloak v. cloak - this has since been changed to apply only to Rom v. Rom and Orion v. Orion) as part of a guessing game to burn my engines and as part of a positioning game. I employ similar tactics against Orions and really have no problem with players doing so. I likewise employ parking tactics against Orions - some times for several turns in a row and likewise have had such tactics employed against me when I fly an Orion. I have no problem with any of these tactics and I don;t think the rule against

non-aggression is intended to stop them nor do I think Steve's recent ruling was intended to stop them.

I do think there is a significant difference between those sorts of tactics and an entire game plan revolving around going slow. I have not yet read about Origins 2006, so I cannot comment. I can comment about the game play I saw from Paul Kramer in 1995 that took him to the final game (Bill won) that involved (in a 39 power TKR) going slow with cloak paid for (well, 15 of the 20 points paid for) and launching EPTs at range 15. That sort of thing just should not be permitted and a proper reading of the non-aggression rules would have found Kramer adjudicated against in a much earlier round.

Likewise, if a Fed is cruising around at speed 8-12, with a brick and some or all of an HET paid for just waiting for his opponent to do something stupid, I think that is a problem too, and the rules prohibiting non-aggression should a apply. I, again, have no idea if this is what Jason employed (I thought he was in a Gorn?) or not in 2006. But if it was, then yeah, that is a problem for the game - though if it was in a non-plasma ship and did not involve long ranged EPTs, then I think almost any ship could take advantage of it and create a sizable lead in 8 or so turns. This strategy, except possibly against an Orion - and I think no even then, is just too easily countered to be a concern. A plasma ship and especially a Rom, however, could keep it up all day.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 01:15 pm: Edit

what about enforcing the 5min/ea rule, & the 1 minute/impulse(to move rule). That would speed up the game considerably, cause nobody enforces it. We could get those timeclocks that chess players use. It seems to me that it MIGHT help things, don't know, just throwing it out there. Then as a punishment, if your time runs out per impulse on your clock(which will have a total 3 hours on it) you get penalized in some way. Maybe for every 15 seconds you are overtime you lose a sheild box or two(randomly assigned(roll a d6)), That would get people moving. :P

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Well, I have always liked the idea of a chess clock system. Right now the game gets 3 hours. For most of my games my opponent eats a lot more of those 3 hours than I do.

By Roger Rardain (Sky_Captain) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 02:06 pm: Edit

I have been following this item with interest.

Right now, I'm torn between weighing in on it here, sending SVC/SPP an email, or just waiting for the Sing-a-Long.

*Sigh*

I'll wait for the Sing-a-Long.

By David Cheng (Davec) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Wow! Speed 12 might not be fast "enough", in the opinion of one of the best players in the country?

Doesn't a speed of 8-12 limit your ability to take advantage of whatever mistake your opponent makes?

I sure hope those revised Official Non-Aggression Guidelines are good, clear and well thought out. I think I'd have a problem telling someone that they are on the non-aggression clock for approaching at a double-digit speed (albeit low double-digits).

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Thats one of my concerns.

But I did agree to wait until after O. to reraise them.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 04:11 pm: Edit

David, Like I said, I don't think it is a good tactic in that it is easy to defeat. There really are not mistakes to make if your opponent is doing something like that. Fly around, don't engage, do what you can from range. You should be able to use your initiative to trade Range 8 shots with Range 9+ shots, which will more than make up for the reenforcement difference. I think there are very easy ways to ensure that you win if the Fed (or any non-plasma) does something like this.

The point is that flying around at no more than 8-12 for the entire game (assuming the game is at range and not a knife fight) is not engaging. To me its not so much a matter that it is easy to beat (it is); it is a problem that the duty to engage is on both players, not on only one.

BTW, to reply to MJC above, when someone above mentioned that turtling is easy it was not that inferior players would have access to a tactic that makes it possible to fight good players - good players will have a far easier time (if more dull) defeating a poor opponent moving speed 8-12 all game than they will against that same opponent actually trying to engage. The problem that comment was going to, I assume, is that moving slow is an advantage to the slow player in games of equal skill where the skill level is not high, e.g. where go to range X and exchange fire is commonplace.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 04:19 pm: Edit

This is hard. I lost to Jason in Captain's last year and brought this up in a discussion here right after the event in July. What makes it hard is this:

While a primary component of Jason's gameplan was to capitalize on opponent mistakes, his true motivation for playing this way was to capture the center of the map by the end of turn 2. He uses slow speeds to do this.

Looking back on our game (him Gorn, me Orion) He was indeed in map center early in the 3rd turn. At the time, I thought he was playing non-agressively because the speeds he was using meant he could have had massive tactor, Reinforcement and/or plotted HET. He could also drop to speed 4 at any time and pop a weasel after I ran through plasma to get a decent DF shot (I was in a hellboat, for the record). This altered my game plan and I literally impaled myself on his ship because I could see no way to beat him in the 3 hours we had. I was taking engine damage and had slight shield damage while his ship was mostly clean.

Looking back, his style of play conditioned me to believe he would play non-aggressively the entire game. I mean, when the guy's turn 1 speed plot is 7/4 and you're in an Orion how could it seem anything else? But if you read his Victory article, he actually speeds up most of the time once he's past that 2nd turn because he's achieved his goal: map center. Now in our game he didn't have to speed up because I came screaming at him late in the 3rd turn and the game was over in the next turn.

What makes this difficult to peg down is that Jason's game appeared to be non-aggressive (i.e. waiting for that critical mistake) but he has a bigger motive that is quite viable. Heck, Brook and I had lunch with him the day before and he came right out and told us that he likes to grab the center of the map. He just didn't fill us in on how he did. Sneaky bastard...

;)

So this style of play is really in a gray area here. On the surface it looks non-aggressive, but is it? The bigger issue is that this style of play does NOT sit well with the time limits imposed in a FtF tourney. The time simply isn't there. I'm on the fence concerning this issue myself, but I just wanted to give a little insight here from a guy that expereienced it.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Deleted. Duplicate post.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 04:32 pm: Edit

David, You will not have to pick a speed as a cut off. Two guys play. All they do all game is exchange long range (if any) fire. The guy moving slower was the one not engaging.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Dave wrote:

>>Isn't this exactly what Jason/Hood was trying to do against Ken/Krotar more recently?>>

Well, kinda? The significant difference, to compare the two, as far as I can figure, is that Bill was firing weapons and using resources (cloak limit impulses) while playing a long game. There is a difference (at least as far as I can tell) between playing a long, drawn out game where weapons are fired on a regular basis and a long drawn out game where weapons *aren't* fired on a regular basis.

-Peter

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 05:35 pm: Edit

[Entirely inappropriate comment, deleted]

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 06:00 pm: Edit

hahahahahahahaha, good point Jason!!!

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Jason, In those cases the opponent either did something it should not have done or the other wasn't so non-aggressive. Either way, the resolution of such games is easy. The question is what to do with a game where no one has any damage and you really can't fairly adjudicate it absent some rule suggesting you adjudicate against the non-aggressive player(or in the case of what is being discussed, how to intervene when that situation is inevitable given the current play).

Your examples are another reason I am not as nearly concerned about this "new" ruling as many seem to be.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Any comment by Jason or Ken, now or after the ruling is posted, will result in disqualification.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 07:17 pm: Edit

One point I need to make. I ordered Petrick to join the triumvirate on this matter not because I thought Paul could not handle it, but because I thought Paul should not be left to handle it alone. I have total confidence that he could have handled it. But whatever ruling is made, there is going to be a @#$%storm and I don't pay Paul enough to take that kind of @#$%. Petrick gets paid the big bucks to put up with @#$%.

I didn't send Petrick to do Paul's job. I sent him to take the heat. I felt it was unfair, even cowardly, for the company to leave Paul in the hot seat all by himself even on the busiest few days of the year.

And by the way, Paul was promoted to Senior Ceritifed Judge a month ago (to be announced at Origins). I didn't want anybody to think I promoted him because I hurt his feelings. You all know me and you all know I don't hand out promotions or medals for hurt feelings. I might send a free game if I hurt somebody's feelings (probably not) but Senior Certified Judge means you have the experience and judgement to rate the title, not that I hurt your feelings.

There was another promotion to Senior Certified Judge made back on 1 June and that will be announced at Origins. I will email the man involved so nobody else will wonder "was it me?" for the next few days. If you haven't made senior yet, just keep doing your job and you will.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 07:35 pm: Edit

[violation]

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 07:36 pm: Edit

[violation]

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Jason said: [what he should not have]

By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Here's a thought for limiting delays through brickage etc-possibly a tourney only rule;

How about limiting specific reinforcement for each shield to a maximum of equaling the ships original battery capacity. Ships with 4 batteries, the 2/3rd movers, would be allowed 150% their original battery capacity. Optionally in plasma vs anything non-plasma the rule is lifted for both ships.

Basically traditional cruisers would have max of 5 plus batteries and small/war cruiser hulls could have 6 plus batteries.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 11:05 pm: Edit

That's called Fed Commander. And reinforcement isn't really the issue.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 11:52 pm: Edit

Quote:

you all know I don't hand out promotions or medals for hurt feelings.

But you could. Call it the Purple Bleeding Heart.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 06:32 am: Edit

SVC said "There was another promotion to Senior Certified Judge"". I think I can guess who it is.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 07:32 am: Edit

[inappropriate]

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 08:33 am: Edit

Tim, Currently the ruling is still under adjudication. And the problem is that a judge might come to read the latest threads on the BBS and that it might influence their decision. Unfortunately, we can't put the judges in a bubble. Normally, this does not matter since if this is a FTF game the judges go off away from people and then decide it without outside influences. But the problem with this one is that it is online and we need to converse via Email. After the adjudication is done you can discuss any game assuming that is sticks to the rules of the BBS.

Paul Franz

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 10:45 am: Edit

I should comment that judges NEVER discuss an adjudication with anyone other than the two players involved. They ask for and review statements, and the issue and explain rulings. The statements and rulings are NOT public. Judges do NOT submit their decisions to review by a committee of random players.

If you ask a judge to explain his decision, his only answer is "no comment" and he knows he will be fired on the spot for making a comment.

This particular game has become fairly heated and is NOT to be discussed again in this topic or on this BBS.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 08:47 pm: Edit

I'd like to discus why so few players are playing Tholians nowadays. Any ideas?

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 09:02 pm: Edit

== I'd suggest at least partially because (IMO) web placement is a very tricky thing, easy to mess up. Most of us trying to learn Thols have to take a lot of beatings before (presumably) getting at least adequate with it.

And for me, i find the every turn hassle of exactly when and where to Cast to suck enuf of my limited brain cells that it's usually not worth it.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 11:05 pm: Edit

It's along similar lines for me. I'm basically competent with the Tholian, but so much effort goes into figuring out where to put the web, that I end up playing pretty slowly, and I hate it when people play really slowly.

The Tholian also has really extreme RPS matchups, which isn't a ton of fun.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 11:34 am: Edit

What bad RPS to you see for the Tholians, oh mighty bleeting one?

And yeah, I can see web placement being an issue. The Tholians always struck me as great ships to suit my style of play, but I never had the patience to be any good at web placement. I remember a game against Brook a while back when I was in a NTC and him in the Fed. I mistimed my web launceh by a couple impulses and got absolutely clobbered.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Well, bleeting yes, mighty I'm not so sure

Obviously the Seltorian is bad. It is, however, not THAT bad. The Seltorian pays six power to fire all three web breakers, which still have about a 50/50 chance of not totally blowing away a 5-power cast web, so it will still block fire. And it's not like you need the web to catch seeking weapons. After that, firepower's pretty even, both have 8P1 and 4P3 with 4 crappy heavy weapons. This leaves the Seltorian being bigger whereas the Tholian is more maneuverable. Once some internal damage has been scored, the Seltorian loses its web breakers, and the web starts to work more normally.

The RPS thread has some pretty good information in it, but generally, the faster and more direct firepower an opponent has, the worse of a matchup they are. So, Feds, Hydrans and Lyrans are all annoying, but of those, the Fed is the worst because its weapons are least affected by web. These are not really bad matchups so much as they are matchups with a high risk of "oops I'm dead now." The Orion can evade web much better than most ships and once it gets close to you, it can be a challenge to get rid of him, web or no web. This makes him probably worse than the crunch power ships. The Klingon is particularly bad because there is a sort of effect where "you have the same ship but his is better." Drones tie up web but are free whereas web is not, the Klingon's firepower is pretty good, and he matches your turn mode. A bunch of drones can plug up your web, and then as soon as it drops, they come right back. The Kzinti and Shark create similar problems with drones, but have less firepower, so it's not as bad. The thing with the Kzinti and Shark is that much of their firepower is P3s and those just don't help against the Tholian.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Step 1:

Turn off your own web pass ability early on turn 1.

Step 2:

Look at your opponent's turn mode and available range of speed plots when you hit range 12 or so.

Step 3:

Lay a 5-hex W-shaped web - strength is immaterial, that you will be behind when you hit range 8, with your turn mode satisfied, or at most, one or two away from satisfying.

Step 4:

Fire any disruptors you armed before the web goes up. Stick yourself in the web. When your opponent commits one way or the other as to which way he's going around the web, decide when you're firing phasers, turn in the web so that it offers protection, and take your foot off the brakes (turn web pass back on).

Done correctly (and with an opponent who doesn't see the W web and turn immediately off...), you can generally get an unanswered range 4-5 shot with phaser 1s (or one where you get a range 4-5 shot on his forwards, you take a range 8 shot on your rears...)

Against drone heavy races, expect to spend turn 2 running out drones and phasering them down, while trickle arming the caster to play the W-web game again.

The trick to doing the W web is pattern recognition, not iteratively grinding your way through all the possible permutations.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:23 pm: Edit

It has come to our attention that Jason Gray has been emailing a group of individuals blasting the decision against him as wrong and claiming that somehow Steve Cole directed the judges to rule against him. While freedom of speech and opinion certainly exist, attempting to garner support against a duly certified decision of a triumvirate of Judges must be answered.

1) Steve Cole had no input into the ruling of the game. 2) The judges tribunal that was made up of Steve Petrick, Paul Franz and Scott Moellmer were unanimous in the decision against Jason. 3) The judgement was made after reviewing the full game, not simply looking at a few turns, but the overall pattern.

The judgement was made by having each judge individually review the circumstances of the game, the log of the game, and reports by both players. Then, each judge was asked to prepare his ruling. Steven Petrick made his decision before and independent of each judge, letting each judge reach their own decision and then having each judge submit his judgement. Steven Petrick did not influence the judges in any way. All three judges remain convinced that their decision was the right one.The judgement is final and not subject to review by Jason Gray or any group of individuals that he tries to rally to his cause.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 11:36 pm: Edit

Ken Burnside...

yeah, I tried that a long time ago just post Doomsday. You know what my opponant did? He dove into the web right next to me and hammered me, actually used the web against me by maneuvering so that I had to fire phasers through web which reduced my strike. His strike, OTOH, was straight forward and undimminished.

I'll never do that again. Cast web just isn't dangerous enough to make getting caught an absolute no go... in a duel anyway.

I remember him saying, "I've got to reload next turn anyway and as long as I keep my speed energy up I won't lose anything." The only safe place for me was moving linierly down the web. But then it disapated and I wasn't all that far away.

I disengaged and he won the Marginal victory.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:32 am: Edit

The idea behind the W shaped web is that even if your opponent crashes the web, you can still duck behind one of the "bumps" OR get out of his FA arc (sometimes both) - assuming you move last, and are willing to HET. Both of those are sort of required for the ATC. This is one of the reasons the Neo isn't as good - no ability to HET at 31, and one (of many) reasons the Orion is trouble.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 02:22 am: Edit

If you have cast a W web and the opponent has crashed it and shot at you either you cast the web poorly or you moved poorly after it was cast.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:02 pm: Edit

That's the basic problem with the Tholian ships, though. If you make a relatively minor mistake in your maneuver or the placement of the web, that mistake can end up greatly magnified. In the pressure of a tournament, the potential for mistakes is big, and the lack of forgiveness for those mistakes is a weakness of the spiders.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:38 pm: Edit

well.......good!

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Gorn 31/17/24 Opening.

I noticed Peter B had another good win at Origins in his Gorn.

With this opening the Gorn launches either an Envelpoer or Fake+Real-S at about range 15 on Turn 1 around the time of the drop to speed-17.

If the opponent chooses to flying thru the plasma he takes significant damage and may not even get Range 8.

If the opponent turns to run out the plasma the Gorn gets on the tail of the enemy ship which allows for the Turn 2 Range 5 centreline 6 X ph-1's + 2 F-bolts and HET away that Peter has used so successfully.

Most players fighting the Gorn tend to use either slow/fast (like 16/26) or fast/slow (like 31/16) but against the range 15 launch the result tends to be the same (an angry Gorn on your tail at the start of Turn 2).

The main advantage of the Gorn early plasma launch is that it forces the opponent away from the centre of the map therefore I was wondering about the following counter-

31/16/8/4 (about 14 hexes) With this opening it is the Gorn that is forced to turn and retreat from the centre of the map, on turn 2 the Gorn can be forced into a corner and then blasted on turn 3.

Two Questions- 1) Is it a viable tactic (ie. is it likely to work)? 2) Is is a legitimate tactic (ie. is it legal to have a Turn 1 plot that ends at speed-4 and do any players find such a plan offensive)?

-Jason G

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 02:03 pm: Edit

My opinion:

1) I have done it before against the TKE, but do not think it is good against the other plasma ships. You'll WW the 1st 60 (which will be an impulse 32 launch if the plasma player figures out what you're doing), then WW the 2nd 60 on T2. You

*might* get a r8 shot on T3 which probably won't do internals, and then the S torps are cycled again on turns 5 and 6, and then you are out of weasels.

2) Yes. No, it's not offensive (IMO).

By Ken Rotar (Krotar) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 02:06 pm: Edit

1) it sounds viable

2) it sounds legitimate

By Allen Phelps (Agphelps) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 03:43 pm: Edit

1) I don't think it is really viable. Once you start slowing down the Gorn can wait on a launch decision (particularly after you go all the way down to 8). If you aren't going to pressure him, and you have dropped to a speed that you could go on down to weasel speed without decelling then as a Gorn I would probably just wait till the end of the turn and launch from around 10-14. That will force you to stay slow for the first part of the turn to weasel it (unless you just want to eat it, which is also fine with me). During that first part of the turn the Gorn can turn the other side to face you and loiter around range 9-11 or so. If you speed up to 14, the second EPT will force you to either eat it or decel. If you only speed up to 8-9 then the Gorn does the same thing as before, hold the launch till the end of the turn to keep you slow on turn three as long as possible. You still will be able to get moving again turn four but you will be back up at the top of the cycle again with the torp launched on turn one ready. Granted, you will have better board position than turn one but you will be down two shuttles, which is very significant. I don't think it really leaves you in that good of a position.

2) I think it is legitimate. I think the non-aggression problems really only manifest in cases where behavior continues over multiple turns (and really the only one that particularly bothers me is the slow Rom that could have cloak payed for that is tossing out EPTs forever).

By Allen Phelps (Agphelps) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 04:46 pm: Edit

I was thinking about this some more, and I think the situation on turn four is in some cases even worse than I originally thought. Yes the ship trying this will have better board position than turn one, but he will also start the turn significantly closer to the Gorn. If he isn't a high crunch ship then the Gorn might skip the EPT turn four, load up the beam and try for an overrun (or an opportunity to launch 50-70 to force a decel).

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 04:50 pm: Edit

I have used 31/16/8/4 for a few years. I use it as a gimmick, not a standard opening. I used it against Ted Fay's TFH about a month ago, actually (where it worked pretty well, but only because it totally threw him off his game plan - which is generally what you are looking for with a trick opening). Compared to more conventional running around type opening, you will use two weasels instead of one, but the second S will be launched at the end of turn 2 instead of in the

early-mid part. On the positive side, you will be doing all this weaseling in the middle of the map instead of in the corner. On turn 3 is where the problem comes in, because you will be stuck with a 4/14 plot (since the turn 2 EPT will have just been launched, probably from range 9-10).

Now, some plasma players might spend turn 3 rearming, but an aggressive Gorn will wait for your weasel to expire, then launch his F's (or maybe one F) and follow them in. He wants to be 3-4 hexes behind the torp(s).

Now you can weasel the F's and have the Gorn overrun you or take an R3 strike while your AFC is not working, or you can shoot the F's and have no firepower left for the enemy ship. Or, I suppose, eat the F's and take a bunch of damage. Even if you're the Fed, and have 64 points of photons, you are still not coming out ahead, and next turn the Gorn will have another EPT while you've got nothing.

I originally conceived this opening against the Gorn, but now I realize it is better against Romulans. (I do not know if I am the first one to think of it, but I did come up with it myself in about 2003). The Gorn has enough phasers to make this sort of approach problematic, as he is happy to come to R3 and shoot you with 7P1 while you are on PFC, then leave you an EPT to play with on turn 4. It has some promise against the TKE, who doesn't have enough phasers to hurt you outside of R2, and the TFH, who in addition to not having much in the way of phasers to work with, will have a hard time getting a plasma in arc on T4 after this. On the other hand, the TKE is happy to have you slow on turn 2 while he rearms.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 04:56 pm: Edit

I see this opening resulting in 3 WW gone by the first third of turn 3 with you stuck at slow speed for the turn 4 and 5 EPTs.

By Ken Rotar (Krotar) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 05:14 pm: Edit

I thought the opening would be viable as a gamble against someone that you highly suspect will use an opening like the one used by Peter. It would set his game plan off, but the long-range effects might not be worth it.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Yeah, I agree that it is totally legitimate on whatever level, but in terms of viablility, it'll certainly help you from the first turn plasma, but as the first turn of plasma is usually not that big investment for the Gorn (an EPT or 0-1 real S torps), and if the opponent slows down like that, the Gorn is not gonna see R8, so no significant damage will be dealt. So by the end of T1, the Gorn is still fast and mostly loaded with the opponent down a weasel and stuck to max speed 14.

T2 would likely result in the Gorn planning to anchor given a speed 14 opponent or staying at range if the opponent stays slow, to repeat as necessary. With a slow opponent like that, the Gorn (i.e. me :-) is happy to have a couple turns where nothing is shot at me and I reload.

-Peter

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Quote:

I used it against Ted Fay's TFH about a month ago, actually (where it worked pretty well, but only because it totally threw him off his game plan - which is generally what you are looking for with a trick opening).

I don't remember the outcome of that battle exactly - but didn't I win anyway? Remind me.

I've tried the "slow and weasel" tactic. It can work against some opponents - but not against ace opponents. In my experience the ace opponents will eat you alive if you try this.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Your family interrupted the game. We saved, but never resumed. It was turn 3, you were cloaking and out of plasma and I had no internals. So, I consider the opening a success even though the game itself is not decided yet.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Thanks, Sheap. We'll have to resume sometime.

BTW: I don't consider myself an ace plasma player. Plan to earn one someday,

though.

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 08:53 pm: Edit

This is a great Gorn Plot against a drone happy Zin. There is nothing unagressive about it, unless you don't charge wepons, just WWs.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 07:39 pm: Edit

jason said "Is is a legitimate tactic?"

Why don't you try it?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Marcus, I think he meant "legitimate in light of the new non agression rules" kinda way, not the "legitimate in the will it work" kinda way.

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Where are the new non-agression rules posted?

Cause everybody knows what a weenie I am on the map and I need to make sure I don't keep violating them.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Tournament Rulings. Right below this thread.

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:29 pm: Edit

OK, thanks Peter. It's noted that while attacking at really low speed is a no-no, youcan still run away as fast as you like ;)

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 01:12 am: Edit

Favourite Ships to fly against!

I know everyone has their favourite ships to fly but what ships do you get the most enjoyment/fun/challenge flying against?

Here is my list-

1) Klingon (this ship is so well balanced that it’s hard to not have a good game against the Klingon)

2) Hydran (the fighters make this ship unique and even though it is always on the look out for the overrun there always seems to be plenty of tactical decisions in a game against the Hydran)

3) Federation (I know a lot of players don’t enjoy fighting the Fed but I like the nerve-racking feeling that you get as the Fed enters Overload range, I also think there is a lot more to flying the Fed than people realize, that and the strange satisfaction I get from watching the Fed go Boom put it high on my list.)

4) Gorn (a tough old dinosaur that gives me a good game 9/10 times)

5) ISC (the other plasma ship that can’t cloak! Being pounded by the PPD is no fun but the games usually are!)

6) LDR (a nifty little ship that always seems to be fun and interesting to play against)

7) Kzinti (drones, drones and more drones! Can be a little frustrating to fight but the tactical options for both sides in a Zin battle are very challenging, which puts it quite high on my list.)

8) Rom Firehawk (IMO the most interesting of the three Romulan ships, plasma +

cloak can be quite frustrating to play against and often require a lot of patience, still it’s a nicely balanced ship and it’s always great when you get to point out to your Romulan opponent that his ship just went Uncontrolled!!)

9) Seltorian (an interesting and solid direct-fire ship, not as fun to fight as the Fed or LDR but still gives a good game)

10) Lyran (same as the Selt)

11) Orion (games against the Orion are very hit and miss, some are great but a lot of games are effectively over one way or the other after the Turn 2 Orion double-everything battle attack. Orion vs Orion games are usually great fun and IMO shouldn’t even be classed as civil-wars for opponent matching!)

12) Archeo-Tholian (the web-caster is certainly interesting but against certain opponents it is not much more than a 5th Disruptor, the web plus 2/3 move cost and unusual arcs make this ship quite interesting to fly against.)

13) Wyn Aux (the Wyn is fast and most packages are very good at the overrun, therefore successfully fighting it often requires parking, so although interesting to fight it is down on my list for that reason)

14) Rom KR (the ship basically works fine but just doesn’t have anything unique enough about it to place it higher)

15) Neo-Tholian (similar to the Archeo but more abc)

16) Wyn Shark (a beefed up Klingon but without the fun of the SP, drone points and funky phaser arcs)

17) Rom Eagle (as much as I want to love fighting this ship it just doesn’t seem to work out in practice, launch R-torp then Cloak, launch R-torp then Cloak etc etc.)

The only ship not on my list is the Andromedan, it’s nearly 20 years since I last fought that little green monster so kinda hard to know where it should go.

Cheers,

-Jason G

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 04:38 am: Edit

Quote:

17) Rom Eagle (as much as I want to love fighting this ship it just

doesn’t seem to work out in practice, launch R-torp then Cloak, launch R-torp then Cloak etc etc.)

Heh, that only happens against the Gorn.

As for the Andromedan, it's not particularly entertaining. The game goes like this:

* Point your ship at the Andromedan * Launch drones if you have any * Ignore whatever he does until you either get to R0, he points his rear panels at you or announces displacement * Fire

This is pretty much a winning strategy regardless of your ship.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 08:59 am: Edit

I'm gonna use Jason's list, just 'cause it is easy to cut and paste. But the order isn't important, and the ships I left out are the average ones--i.e. fun to fly against, nothing real important to say one way or the other.

1) Klingon

Klingon is fun to fight against. It is balanced, strong in many match ups, and games are always scrappy. I like fighting against the Klingon in pretty much anything.

2) Hydran

Hydran is also interesting to play against for reasons Jason mentions, but often the game stands or falls on a couple stray internals ("Yaa! I lost both HBs on two volleys of 3 internals!"), which is necessary to keep the ship balanced but unsatisfying none the less.

3) Federation

The Fed is the ship I *least* like flying against in, well, anything. Not becuase it is nerve racking, but 'cause the games are unsatisfying the vast majority of the time. Any game against the Fed generally comes down to a single throw of 4 dice (i.e. that first photon volley). And if it rolls well, it is gonna win, if it rolls poorly, it is gonna lose, and if it rolls average, it is probably still gonna lose. Which makes the games really unsatisfying to play--those games that are, like, 5 turns of manuvering followed by a R8 volley that either make the Fed win (4 hits!) or lose (1 hits!) are not games I enjoy so much. Too much rides on that one handful of dice.

8) Rom Firehawk

I'm not a huge fan of the cloaking device, in an absolute sense (i.e. technology that entrenches non agressive play by policy), but at least the turns where the Rom is cloaked are generally fast ones. Of all the Romulans, this is the one I like most and think is the most balanced--the cloak cost is such that there are tactical decisions to be made while cloaking (KE is too cheap; KR is too expensive). It is usually a fun game, at the very least.

11) Orion

Often frustrating in that "I got blown up and did zero internals" kinda way that I think is bad for the game and 'cause the game often comes down to "did I guess right on where the brick is?". Which isn't satisfying in either direction. But other than that, games vs Orions tend to be interesting ones.

12) Archeo-Tholian

I like fighting the Tholians, as they are very tricky but much more knife edge than, like, the Orion--the Tholian can present a very tough puzzle to deal with, but all the answers are on the map (as opposed to against the Orion, where all the answers are in the coin you have to flip to decide which shield is rienforced), which makes them fun to play against. Yeah, you might get killed and do noting in return, but not 'cause you fired on the #3 instead of the #5.

13) Wyn Aux

The Aux is usually pretty entertainng to fight, but like the Orion, ships that have too much power often come down to a random guess that you have no way to make educatedly (i.e. where is the extra 12 power?), which can be unsatisfying.

14) Rom KR

I'd still rather there only be one Romulan (the RFH). The other two simply aren't different enough to justify them existing, for my money.

17) Rom Eagle

I really dislike fighting this ship as the Gorn, and am not real fond of it in anything else, for reasons noted--it tends to *need* to cloak too much, with the only 1 heavy torp. Yeah, it *can* play a whole game and never cloak and do fine, but it generally isn't going to do that. So once it starts cloaking, it cloaks a lot. It is the ship that is voted most likely to activate the non agression rules. If the KR and TKE just vaporized, I'd be much happier.

Heh. So apparently I have complaints about a handfull of ships, and not much nice to say about all the other ones. I'm a drag :-)

-Peter

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 04:20 pm: Edit

must... not... rehash... ancient... argument...

I find that all the "threshold ships" are generally not that fun to oppose. Those are ships where it hardly matters how much damage you do, until you get to a point, and then they just collapse. The Andro, Orion, and WAX are in that category. The TKE is close, but the thing is that the threshold is a lot easier to "move" which gives you tactical options. The LDR is probably a threshold ship too although, like the TKE, there are more things you can do on both sides to alter where that threshold is.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 11:30 pm: Edit

I'll give you the ships I don't like to play against. It's easier for me that way.

WYN Shark - Never fun because it's a very forgiving ship for my opponent and you have to pound the snot out of it to display any real reduction in it's ability to hurt you.

Orion - My favorite ship to fly is one of my least favorites to fly against. I think the real reason behind it is I always have "if that was me, I'd be doing this..." going on in the back of my head. I also don't do very well in the "make him waste his engines" department.

ISC - The ship is a challenge, but seems to reward weenie-like play too much. It's also frustrating because it seems like every game against it is a come from behind deal for me.

Andro - I keep forgeting the stinkin' rules!

Roms - Depends on my mood. Some times I'm really up for sub hunting. Some times it's plain frustrating. Really depends on the ship I'm flying. I really hate having to face them in Feds.

Ships I like to fly against:

The Fed - A very simple ship to fly, I find myself doing really wacky things against them.

WYN AUX - Always a challenge. Best ship to fly against in the entire tourneyh set when you're learning how not to get anchored.

Orion - Hey, didn't I say I hate flying against this ship? I do, but if I'm also in an Orion it's an absolute hoot. Some of my favorite tournament battles of all time where Orion civil wars. Even the ones I lost! Jason is right when he says that it's not really like a civil war unless the option mounts are the same.

Lyran - I just love throwing my shuttle pilots to the wolves. Similar to the Shark, but with more flaws and far more character.

Hydran - I love to manuever and you usually have to manuever your butt off to beat one. And as Peter said, there are many different ways a Hydran can be played.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 12:50 pm: Edit

My Favorite ships to fight against:

Klingon- This ship is never totally outclassed by any other ship. This keeps it in every fight, and it has so many different ways to fight it is always an interesting battle.

Romulan TFH- My favorite of the three Rom ships, and I agree with Peter, the best balanced. No matter what ship I am flying (except maybe the Fed) I always enjoy my games against this ship.

ArcheoTholian- Proper use of the W shaped web makes this ship fun to fight against, a very tough fight for almost any ship.

WynAux- Having flown this ship for so long, I also really enjoy flying against it, as it gives me a chance to try all the tactics I have thought up to counter things I

have done in the Aux

ISC- Another ship I fly a lot. While fighting it can be frustrating it is also quite challenging to fight. I enjoy this battle, although I am sure I am in a minority here

Gorn- Another tough, well balanced ship that is a lot of fun to fly against.

Least Favorites to fight:

Andro- Need I say anything more?

Orion- Only because I am usually in the Aux or ISC, two ships that die really easily to the Orion. If not in those ships I generally enjoy Orion fights.

TKE- Although I don't mind the occasional sub-hunt, the continual ept-cloak games this ship generally plays make for long and boring games.

By VincentFerrara (Vmferrara) on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 03:09 pm: Edit

SVC wrote:

"At least until I found the Hydrans in the F&E game taking an FRD on raids to repair their ships in mid-raid. THAT one really pissed me off."

I was just wondering what was so offensive about this tactic. I have an older copy of F&E (I used to have a copy of Federation Space ), which I haven't played in years, so there might be rules changes I don't know about that would make this especially cheezy. But it seems to me that if they were willing to risk having their FRD forward deployed, then why not? As mentioned, I haven't played the game in years, so I've got no agenda here. I'm just curious as to why this would ruin a game.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Vincent: It was a joke. "raids" are a specific "behind enemy lines" rule in a later product you haven't seen. It's physically impossible to take an FRD on a raid; they cannot move fast enough.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:20 am: Edit

So as a slight twist from the recent discussion, what are your 3 favorite ships to fly, and your 3 least favorite ships to fly?

My top 3 in order are:

1. ISC- Not my best, but the ship I enjoy flying the most. If only I didn't keep running into Orions in the RATs .

2. Klingon- I just love this ship. Not highly advantaged against any ship, it is also not disadvantaged against any ship either. I love the flexibility it gives you.

3. Wyn Aux- This is the ship I am best in, but I have the most fun in the other

two .

Least Favorite Ships:

1. TKE- I don't like cloaking, even in ships that are designed expressly for that purpose. This ship is generally forced into doing just that.

2. Lyran- There is nothing wrong with this ship, I just don't like it. (Sorry Jude and Ken)

3. WYN GBS- I just can't get into this ship for some reason. If I am going to fly a drone ship I will fly a Klingon or Kzinti.

Stephen

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:20 am: Edit

Good topic! Most fun for me:

1. LDR - sucky but exciting! 2. ZIN 3. HYD

Least fun:

1. ORI - it takes specialized practice to know how to defeat these guys... somehow I feel somewhat guilty whenever I fly this ship... 2. ISC - see ORI 3. TKE

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:37 am: Edit

Favorites:

1. HYD - favorite race 2. WBS - like the flexibility 3. GRN - can anchor, ballet, or glory zone

Least Favorites:

1. LYR - my ESG timing is horrible 2. WAX - too anchor dependent 3. AND - too much work

By Tom Carroll (Sandman) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Favorites 1. Klingon - By far my favorite ship. 2. Gorn - I haven't flown it in a very long time but I always enjoyed it when I did.

3. LDR - like Ken says, it sucks but it's a lot of fun to fly

Least Favorites Dishonorable mention Rom Kr (expensive cloak and takes internals poorly, neither I want in a plasma ship)

Kzinti (I'm just not that into drones) 3. WYN Aux. I like maneuverability and this ship is the worst at that. 2. WBS - Removes the weaknesses of the Kzinti and the Klingon but also removes the strengths of those ships. Pretty generic imo. 1. Selt. I can handle a ship I find dull or I can handle a ship I find weak but combine the two? Nah.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Favorites 1. Hydran - loses weapons like there is no tomorrow, but a blast to fly. Full of options. 2. Klingon - Like everyone else, I love its flexibility. Not a monster, just a darn good ship. 3. WYN Aux - can be hell on wheels with the right options, but has its fair share of compromises.

'Tweener... The Orion. I agree with Ken..."I feel somewhat guilty whenever I fly this ship". Lots of fun againt the right opponent, and pain in the neck to fly against.

Least Favorites - just one - 1. TKE. I hate plasma, and I hate defensive cloaking. This thing is the worst of both. I'd rather smash my toe with a hammer than face this thing or fly it on a repeated basis.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Favorites:

1. ATC - one of the most difficult ships to fly well. But very effective when it is.

2. WAX - all phasers, of course. I still think this is one of the best ships in the game and it suits my reactive style.

3. Klingon - Bring out the hammer!

Least favorites:

1. Fed - Don't like flying them. Don't like flying against them. Most games come down to the rolls made on the first exchange. As a ship to fly against, it is probably the only ship in the game where the worst player in the game can beat the best player in the game, just by choosing a bad tactic (fire at 8) and rolling well. This is the only ship I sincerely wish was not in the tournament.

2. Selt - see Tom's answer.

3. Andro - I am sad for the Andro. I think it is a really fun ship. I made a

balanced version of it, but they took another direction. People don't like it because it uses different rules than everyone else, but I really wish they would put it back in. Definitely one of the most fun ships to fly - both in and against - if they balanced it.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 09:45 pm: Edit

My favorites are all pretty obvious from my NK history. 1.ISC 2.AUX 3.TLM

Least favorites: Heavy Cloakers:

This makes the TKE my least favorite. Followed by anybody else who is determined to use the chuck and duck.

Fed. When I use it I'm lucky to get 2 hits inside R4. When it's used against me. I seem to have a Photon magnet attached which draws 3 of 4 at R8.

Andro 'Nuff said.

My favorite to fly against:

Gorn: Can be a very fun fight with almost any ship.

Orion: Real guessing game. Makes you wonder just where his power went.

Klink: An always interesting fight.

By John T. Mountford (Jtm) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:02 pm: Edit

My favorites which happen to have good turn modes and seem to be on the lower half that everybody's scale.

Orion: I love the turn mode and flexability that this ship has.

TKE: again the turn mode which I prefer of the gorns ability to absorb damage.

WBS: I prefer the large amount of P1s over the Kzinti's P3s

Least favorites

WYN Aux: I have not yet been able to fly this ship repeatedly succuessfully.

FED: everyone knows what you are trying to do.

Lyran: same reason as FED

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 03:47 am: Edit

Not much to like about the TKE's turn mode...

My favorites (to fly): 1) TKE. You do not have to play this ship in chuck & duck mode (at least not exclusively), and I find that overuse of the chuck & duck playstyle results in a lot of losing. Not to say I would never lob an EPT and cloak... but that is just part of a complete breakfast and hardly the primary tactic. Except against the Gorn, that matchup is super dull. But what BP battle *is* fun with the Gorn? 2) Lyran. A very well balanced ship with no real serious flaws, but not nearly so generic and "optimized" as the Shark. ESGs require a lot more attention and decision making than drones. 3) Fed. The dice dependence sucks and it is too bad photons are not 2d6 weapons. But this is the ship around which SFB is based, and somebody has to fly it. Honorable mention: Klingon. Another classic ship, which I enjoy facing in almost any opponent, but since I essentially never fly it, I couldn't really rank it.

Now my least favorites (either to play or to face): 1) WAX. The idea that a freighter is one of the best warships around (and not only that, also the fastest) offends my sensibilities. 2) ISC. People complain the TKE plays too defensively, but seriously, this ship is far, far worse. 3) It's tough to come up with a #3. There are not really any other ships in the game right now that just suck the fun out of the game. I guess I would say the Seltorian? Not that it's especially bad. But it does not have any particularly interesting unique features, and the 12 impulse firing cycle is more of an annoyance than an interesting tactical problem.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 08:31 am: Edit

ISC more defensive than the TKE?? I guess you haven't faced the T1/T2 OL PPD approach.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 09:12 am: Edit

I am not convinced the T1 OL PPD approach works unless your opponent cooperates. If they run from a single EPT G, and then conveniently point their rear shields at you at R8, then yeah, it works great. This rarely works out. Most of the time the ISC will either not get R8, or the opponent will plot high speed and charge and close from R8 to R3 in only four impulses anyway.

About the only thing the ISC could do to deter me from closing once inside OL range is to fire two EPTs, in which case, sure, shoot the OL PPD and do your 36 damage, I will be back next turn when the G's have run out and you have nothing except a huge power shortage.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 09:45 am: Edit

No Suprises Here Fav 3 1) Orion: I like to turn. 2) T-KR: See above 3) Lyran: I like ESGs

least Fav 1) Andy: The new one. So I have 0% chance of beating anyone? 2) Fed: I don't play the Lotto 3) Selt: I have heavy weapons that can NOT do ints?

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Sheap, it is not very difficult at all to arrange a 5 pulse overloaded ppd at all, and quite frequently a 6 pulse one can be arranged. Unless you have a ship that can kill the ISC in one pass (IE a big plasma ship with full tubes that manages an anchor, or a fully loaded hydran that guarantees range 2 or closer) running through the ol ppd and turn 1 ept is not usually a winning plan.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 01:50 pm: Edit

I don't have much gameplay experience. So I don't know if the below questions have been discussed before

Questions:

Does the use of drones provide a tactical advantage in tournament games?

It seems many don't like the Fed cruiser because of it's slot machine like qualities; allocate the power, try to close to OL range, and role the dice- jackpot?

Has anyone won using a Fed cruiser recently. Would adding a drone B to the Fed cruiser provide tactical options that would make the Fed cruiser more interesting to fly or fight against?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 03:38 pm: Edit

William wrote: >>But what BP battle *is* fun with the Gorn?>>

I find that the Gorn vs TFH isn't actually that bad of a game (this coming completely from the Gorn POV, as I never ever ever fly Romulans)--the Romulan can cloak, sure, but the slowing down can make it risky, and the weak 3/4/5 and lack of armor (relative to the TKE) means that the sub hunt can actually be effective (meaning the TFH has less incentive to cloak a lot). The TKR can't really cloak (as it is too expensive to cloak and move) making it mostly balet balet balet (but also making an anchor lunge a possibility for either side, which is exciting); the TKE *needs* to cloak a lot (due to only having 1 big torp), which leads to

long, slow, hateful games :-)

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Sheap. Oh, the ISC wants you to close. After the plasma and 5-6 PPD pulses, your front shields won't be much deterrent, if any, for his 6 ph-1s to carve chunks out of your ship.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Joseph wrote: >>Does the use of drones provide a tactical advantage in tournament games? >>

Oh, totally--drones are *huge*. But not in the same way that they are in fleet games. In the tournament, it is really hard to actually score hits with drones as there just aren't enough of them to overwhelm defenses (the sole exception is the Kzinti's SP+4 drones on T1, giving the Kzinti the potential to get 14 total drones into play on T2. Which is why most folks tend to weasel the first 10...). But what they do to is suck of opponent resources (phasers, counter drones, tractors) and manipulate their movement. Which is often a tremendous advantage (which is one of the reasons that the Kzinti is such a strong TC).

Drones *can* hit in the tournament, but when drones start hitting, it is because either:

A) You are eating the drones to get a winning shot on your opponent, and you don't care that you are losing a non facing sheild (i.e. I'm getting to R1, tractoring, and feeding my opponent 100 points of plasma, so I don't care if I lose my non facing #6 to a couple drones on the map).

or

B) You are the drone ship and you are winning the game--getting a type IV to land on an opponent's down sheild (heck, often even an up sheild) is usually the telling deathblow from a drone armed unit.

So drones are, still, in the tournament environment, incredibly powerful. But usually not 'cause they are just hitting folks all the time.

>>It seems many don't like the Fed cruiser because of it's slot machine like qualities; allocate the power, try to close to OL range, and role the dice- jackpot? >>

Correct. Like, against a Plasma ship, the Fed generally spends 4 or 5 turns running for position without ever firing a single weapon. And eventually, it gets to

R8 and presses the button, which, if it hits with 3 or 4 photons, often means the game right there. But if it hits with 1 or 2, it also often means the game right there, but in the other direction.

>>Has anyone won using a Fed cruiser recently.>>

Oh, sure. People win in the Fed all the time. It is just that a lot of folks find the victories (and losses) to be very unsatisfying--the whole game often just comes down to a single volley--you roll well, you win (maybe not at that exact moment, but it is a forgone conclusion); you roll poorly, you lose (and a lot of the time, "rolling average" for the Fed equals "rolling poorly").

>> Would adding a drone B to the Fed cruiser provide tactical options that would make the Fed cruiser more interesting to fly or fight against?>>

The "Give the Fed a Drone Rack" (usually a type G) is a discussion that comes up a great deal. Some folks think it would be fine, others think it would be too much of an improvement (significant increase in drone defense *and* protection for an important heavy phaser). The discussion generally ends inconclusively. I tend to side with "it'll make it too good", as it probably over fixes some of the built in flaws of the ship (i.e. drone defense). But that is me.

-Peter

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 05:02 pm: Edit

My favorites to play:

Nearly identical to Paul Scott's:

ATC - I sort of go into a zen mode with this ship when it works, and I see patterns on the map where web would be useful and ugly.

Klingon - Nice, well balanced ship.

WAX - I disagree (slightly) with Paul on the all-phaser-WAX: I put heavy weapons in the forward mounts. The key to the WAX is that the forward mounts should have enough firepower to make people avoid facing them, while you gnaw on them with phaser-1s (4x360, LS/RS) while running "away" - effectively, it's a frontrograde ship. A hidden benefit is that 5th battery for a 2/3 mover ship. If the WAX ever needs a downgrade, that's first on my list of things to get rid of. Two fave packages are HF11 if I'm serious, and PDB if I'm feeling silly.

ISC - I love the EPT/Standard G/OL PPD opening. The PPD/Disr/Drone WAX is fun with the same opening.

Least favorite to play:

Fed. Dice luck sucks.

Gorn: If it had carronades in tourney, maybe. It's a Romulan without a cloak. Boring to fly.

Kzinti: Yeah, it's very forgiving and easy to fly, but I'd rather have the Klingon.

WBS: Hmm. It's a Generic Klizintran without any of the flaws that make the other three ships fun to play.

Lyran: I have never managed to get this ship to work for me in play.

Least favorite to play against:

Orion: Run. Park. Play "find the brick". Not as much fun on the receiving side.

Andro: I learned it because I couldn't beat it. Glad it's gone. Thought Paul's attempt at a balanced one was neat.

WAX: Like an Orion that can't turn.

ATC: Against most players, it's a Klingon with an extra disruptor. Against someone GOOD, it's like getting a root canal with no anesthesia.

Fed: "Let's see how badly the dice maul you." - the first paid game of SFBOL ever played was my Klink versus Paul Scott's Fed. As a badge of honor, I can say that I DID make him hit with 8 of 8 photon torpedoes. I can't really say I *made* him hit with the last 4 out of 4, because, well, there wasn't enough of a ship left to MAKE him do anything, but it was still fun in a masochistic sort of way.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Peter,

Thanks for the reponse.

I presume using proximity photons is a way to loose a duel?

It also appears that what makes photons good for fleet battles makes them a poor weapon in a tournament duel i.e. hit or miss and no loss of damage as a function of range.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Joseph wrote: >>I presume using proximity photons is a way to loose a duel? >>

Generally speaking, correct. I mean, like, once and a while, loading prox photons is a good idea, like, say, you are fighting a Romulan and have a reasonably good chance of seeing a down shield at R12 but not getting inside R8. But most of the time, they just mean that you fire your photons for not much effect and then get cornered and killed on the next turn.

>>It also appears that what makes photons good for fleet battles makes them a poor weapon in a tournament duel i.e. hit or miss and no loss of damage as a function of range.>>

Correct--all the Fed *really* has going for it in tournament play is the threat of the brutal 4xOL Photon strike. Everyone needs to play such that they accept that the Fed might fire at 8 and might hit with all photons (in which case, well, the game is likely over), and when inside of R8, they need to figure out how to win even if the Fed does hit well, so when the Fed is fully armed, everyone is is going to give it respect. When it is on a reload turn, everyone is just going to run it down and try as hard as possible to get to R1 to maul it before it reloads.

If the Fed shoots the photons for not good effect (i.e. proxes, or a bunch of standards at R8 or something), the Fed is totally doomed.

The Fed is generally regarded a very middle of the pack ship, but folks tend to not like flying it much or against it much simply because of the huge impact of a small number of dice (i.e. 4 of them)--a lot of games vs the Fed are just "He got to R8, shot, hit with 1 photon, so I ran him down and killed him." or "He got to R8, shot, hit with 4 photons, so I was killed."--as a result, most good Fed players try to minimize dice by planning their initial exchange at R1 or 2, but against some opponents (mostly Plasma), this is really difficult to pull off. So even the best Fed players will regularly find themselves pulling the R8 slot machine.

As I mentioned above, I dislike flying against the Fed in pretty much anything, simply due to the dice involved and how much swings on (generally speaking) a single volley of fire--beating a Fed is usually unsatisfying (you get shot at R8 and get hit by 1 photon; you get to R4 and get hit by 2 photons) and losing to a Fed is usually unsatisfying (you get to R8 and get hit by 4 photons).

-Peter

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Proximity photons are useless in tournament. Sometimes I have seen one proximity photon armed against plasma, just to be annoying. That's not always true in a non tournament duel, which might be on a floating map; but this is the tournament section so fixed map is the order of the day.

As far as the ISC... Starting at R8, in four impulses I move four hexes closer. In those same four

impulses, assuming you only go about speed 16, you can miss twice, slip once, and move forward once. That closes the range from 8 to 3 in four impulses, unless the ISC either goes slower than about speed 14 (thereby missing an extra move), or the opponent goes too slow and manages to miss a move in there somewhere (I call this opponent cooperation).

What to do about an ISC who goes slower than 14 is an interesting question. Turning off from an ISC who's launched nothing just because he went too slow seems weird. Probably I'd go for an R8 shot, then turn away (maybe HET) and accelerate to get out of R8. This would require me to have contingently allocated part of a HET, or have some very lucky speed changes plotted, which I maybe wouldn't have typically done, so it's possible you could get 5 shots this way.

I am not saying that the opponent should just always run through everything the ISC has on turn 1. I rarely do this. If the ISC hasn't fired by the time the opponent gets to about R10, though, then the opponent may as well just do the whole banzai charge thing because really, what else is he going to do?

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 09:11 pm: Edit

What about an ISC who is not coming right at you, but rather is on a semi-oblique and is slipping away once at range 8?

The general plan for the ISC on turn 1 is to load an EPT and hold a standard G or roll the other torp. You launch the ept at range 12 to 13 depending on closing speeds. you are not trying to deny range 8 to your opponent but rather range 5 (ie, if they want to get range 5 or closer they will be eating the ept). At range 8 you fire the ppd. At that time you make the decision whether or not to overload it, again based on speeds and position. If the opponent decides to eat the ept, at range 5 or 4 you give them the 6 p-1s (likely doing internals) and then turn off, launching a 40 point stack (G and F). At this point they have sustained massive damage to their front shields and taken pretty decent damage to their rears as well. The 40 point stack has to be dealt with or it will do even more internals, or you can gamble that the G is a ppt. Even if it is, the f torp will be hitting weakened shields and doing internals.

Very few ships can take a 40 point ept, 20-36 damage from the ppd, 18-25 damage from the p-1s and 20-40 damage from a G and F torp and still win the game.

I would be happy to play this with you any time you want online.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 09:26 pm: Edit

While the WBS is often considered "boring", I play the Ba version, which I find to be a unique offering in the tournament. With 3 drone racks and a 12-round ADD rack, it has some very interesting options against the other drone-chuckers. It is also, IMO, the most effective anti-Hydran version of the WBS. I have also used

that ADD effectively against SS and Admin shuttles.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Is then correct to say photons are tactically balanced for tournament use; the success in using them relies more on luck than tactics?

It seems a same that one of the two ships the game is based on is unpopular for tournament play.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Joseph wrote: >>Is then correct to say photons are tactically balanced for tournament use; the success in using them relies more on luck than tactics?>>

Well, it is more or less balanced--the Fed does slightly below 50-50 in play (if I recall correctly) which means that it is pretty much balanced. But what that means is that in the grand scheme, the luck averages out--yeah, once and a while you totally miss, and once and a while you jackpot, but in the long run, everything averages out. Which doesn't mean that the 1 game in 16 where you jackpot at R8 doesn't blow for your opponent and the 1 game in 16 where you totally miss at R8 doesn't blow for you.

And success with the Fed doesn't really rely on luck more than tactics in general--if you play well and roll about average, you will do much better than if you play crappy and roll about average. But that doesn't mean that once and a while, all the good play in the world isn't going to get killed by a bad die roll or all the crappy play in the world isn't going to get saved by a great die roll.

>>It seems a same that one of the two ships the game is based on is unpopular for tournament play.>>

Ironic, isn't it. That's just the way it worked out.

-Peter

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Peter,

Thanks for the conversation.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 01:21 am: Edit

I don't think "Fire at 8" is a bad tactic in the Fed. It depends. A lot of people lose because they pay the price to get to R4 and then only hit with 2. I think fire at 8 is fine as long as you have a good escape route. That being said, I hate to see a

fed across the table from me.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 01:51 am: Edit

The Fed problem is compounded in single elim, of course. Which was the format GH used to be and RAT still is. The problem, of course, is that the odds of hitting with 1 or 0 at R8 (or 1 or 2 at R4) are great enough that it is more likely than not to happen once in a 6 or 7 game run. Since the odds of winning a game once that has happened are very low, the photon dice alone largely limit the ability of the Fed to be successful over an entire tournament.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 07:41 am: Edit

In the Fed, you die after an inadequate r-4 shot. You also die taking too much damage to get to r-2. R8 on the other hand, is not that much worse on average than r4, and is much

more forgiving when you miss, (which you will)

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 08:01 am: Edit

I think someone did some statistical analysis on this board a few years ago. It showed that range 4 was the WORST range to fire OL Photons. i.e., either fire at R8 and get out of dodge or fire at R2 and make sure you hurt him.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 08:21 am: Edit

Re: ATC

I have to say, this has historically been a ship I have struggled to fly well. But... I am starting to see the power of the Dark Side. When I think back to when this thing had 30 point rear shields and 5 batteries... wow.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 08:34 am: Edit

The ATC can be totally crazy to fly against, but it requires *incredibly* analytical play to do well in. I have seen far more Tholians die than not simply because they placed their web 1 hex this way instead of 1 hex that way, and then 12 impulses later it killed them or they moved speed 25 instead of 26, and then they got killed.

The Tholian seems to be the ship that is mostly likely to get you killed by what looks like a totally reasonable decision but turns out to be a suicide.

But if it *doesn't* make any "I hosed myself by 1..." errors, it can be really, really rough to fly against.

-Peter

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 10:42 am: Edit

Flying the ATC is not iterative number crunching - it's broad strokes pattern recognition.

You have to die a lot in the ATC to get a handle on it. Trying to iteratively crunch through all the possibilities of doing web placement is going to fry your brain after three games.

It's all about pattern recognition - assume the other guy is going to move 3 or 4 hexes between when you cast the web and when it goes solid. Draw a colored fan of hexes in your brain showing where he can be. Put little wiggle marks showing where he can turn. Assume he'll use sideslips to widen the fan.

Now, instead of trying to make web that blocks every possible single position, you're making web that blocks angles from, effectively, a triangular "splotch" on the map, or, if it doesn't block it from all of them, you're comfortable with the maneuver exchange.

Ken Rotar is usually a better player than I am - I took to the ATC pretty quickly once I saw a W web in action. It took a little bit of fiddling and some Q&A with Paul, but I saw most of the implications right off, and saw that you're playing games of space, like Go.

Ken kept trying to analyze every possible iteration of "If he does X, and my web is here-here-here-here-here" for every web caster opportunity, and they took 10-15 minutes. I'd get better results eying the map, and throwing the silly string out.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Quote:

What about an ISC who is not coming right at you, but rather is on a semi-oblique and is slipping away once at range 8?

The general plan for the ISC on turn 1 is to load an EPT and hold a standard G or roll the other torp. You launch the ept at range 12 to 13 depending on closing speeds. you are not trying to deny range 8 to your opponent but rather range 5 (ie, if they want to get range 5 or closer they will be eating the ept). At range 8 you fire the ppd.

The ISC still has two misses, one slip and one forward as his moves once the opponent gets to R8. Semi-oblique gives more options for what to do after the PPD is fired, but doesn't improve the actual firing solution for it. Being on the semi-oblique also carries with it its own disadvantages, since the ISC is then in danger of having to slip or even turn in to avoid the PPD going out of arc.

As the opponent I have to look at what you have fired and decide as well. If the

ISC launches an EPT out at R12-13, I probably have the option of turning off and running it out, avoiding OL PPD range entirely. My thought experiment makes me think, the best time for the ISC to launch his EPT is when I am about at R10, too close to turn off without eating the OL-PPD, too close to run out the plasma in any meaningful way, but still far enough that I won't get R5 without eating it first.

Keep in mind here, I am not arguing that the optimal strategy is, or is not, to just charge through everything the ISC fires on turn 1. All I am saying is that the ISC cannot count on a turn 1 OL PPD unless the opponent is cooperative.

Back when I was trying to use the ISC my goal was always to try to get a turn 1 PPD. I found that I ended up having to charge my opponent because he just wouldn't ever turn off from one EPT, and I figured, hey, if I am going to just fly right at my opponent I may as well just play the Gorn.

I guess we could play this out. I'm not going to, like, use the special horse food excuse, or anything. I'm just not sure it requires a game to settle. But, hey, I like

to play, so whatever One downside is that I'm not really competent in D&D ships which seem to be the best for proving this yea or nay. I guess I could use the Lyran, which also gives me a convenient excuse for when I eventually go on to lose the game ;)

Quote:

When I think back to when [the ATC] had 30 point rear shields and 5 batteries... wow.

Didn't it also have 4-6 breakdown then?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Nah--it only ever had a 4-6 breakdown while it had 20 warp engines (i.e. the original SSD in the CL was horribly misprinted and was never actually a playable ship--it was almost immediately corrected to the 24 warp/5 battery/30 sheilds all around version that it was for many years).

-Peter

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 10:28 pm: Edit

The three basic ISC tactics are:

1. Use plasma to keep opponent away while grinding him down with long-range PPD.

2. Use threat of PPD long-range dominance to get him to eat your plasma.

3. Make him spend all his resources dealing with plasma and PPD, and shred him with phasers.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 03:58 pm: Edit

The secret of the ISC:

The ISC tourney cruiser as a PPD. Now, most people THINK they know how a PPD works, just by looking at damage tables, ranges, that kind of crap. However, the PPD has a secret, nondocumented ability...

It has the ability to suck enemy ships right into your plasma's. Whether you arm it or not...fire it or not....it doesn't matter. Just the presence of it being on the ship actually acts as a plasma conduit, effectively making your plasma's super-sabots.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 04:43 pm: Edit

yeah as I have little game I tend to run through all that crap and then overwhelm the ISC. Of course this is while in the Aux or Orion who can do it and still survive to put a hurtin on the ISC.

Other ships need a little more finesse or tactics to beat the ISC.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 04:53 pm: Edit

I dunno--the only measure of success I have ever had in the Gorn against the ISC is just running into everything it has and going for the T2 anchor. Which even works sometimes.

Any kind of finesse-y game in the Gorn vs the ISC tends to just result in getting picked to pieces at range. But just going fast with tractors and suicide shuttles and standard torps, cornering the ISC, and then mugging the hell out of it sometimes works just fine, depending on what you manage to run into on what sheild.

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 12:21 am: Edit

Since I was away this weekend, I missed all the fun!

Favorites: Orion - Like Bret, I like to turn. I also love playing with option mounts and making the opponent guess.

Hydran - Beefy ship with loads of character and a big hammer. Also very versitile, so it doesn't get old too quickly. No other ship in the tourney quite like it.

Fed - Beautiful in it's simplicity. Has many tough opponents, but very gratifying to win with. Unless you just got lucky, then you just win ;)

Honorable mention - TKR cause I still like to turn and it's my favorite plasma ship. And I'm not a big fan of cloaking, so this works our just fine for me,

Don't like to fly: Either Tholian - I never put in the time to learn how to use web properly and I usually die right after my first critical misplacement. Usually around turn 3.

ISC - great ship, but I feel so icky every time I play one.

WYN Shark - Do I take the Klingon or Kzinti? Hmmm... can't decide. I know, I'll take the Shark!!!! *yawns*

By mike hardy (Shadowcat) on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Ships I like to fly:

1) Zin - Love the drones. Sometimes wish the Zin was allowed to use mw, but makes it very unbalanced. 2) Isc - PPD/plasma. Wear opponents shields down with envelopers, continually chip at down shields with ppd. 3) Rom - High speed plasma chucker, who needs to cloak?

least favorite - 1) tie between wyn and orion- take internals they die. 2) klingon - disrupters and drones - rather be zin have more drones. 3) Isc - Love and hate to fly. Hate the finnesse tactics involved in flying it. One mistake and it is over. Love the weaponry.

Ships just not sure about 1) Fed - some days it is a real joy to fly. Love the phasers hate the photons. Maybe a 2 photon plasma F version would be better? 2) Lyran - Love the esg's but not sure on ship, not enough flight time in it. 3)Hydran - Stingers are fun, but not comfortable with this race.

Problem with the Isc: If your opponent uses a parralel approach, he can: 1) Force you to turn to keep your PPd in arc. 2) Trade shots with you while breaking your ppd up over multiple shields(main damage not splash) while avoiding your plasma completely 3) Wear down your front shield faster than you are wearing down his. 4) totally avoid overload range for several turns.

Example:

Isc is approaching target ship from direction F. At range 15, target ship turns direction F. Now both ships are going head to head. Isc launches plasma at range 10-13. Opponent starts slipping away from Isc. Opponent could Fire before range 8 and turn and run making the Isc chase him and avoiding the plasma, or continue slipping away, which lowers the effectiveness of the plasma. As the ppd is hitting the side shields mostly, the target could turn back into the Isc ship, flipping the shielding that is getting hit by ppd, and using all six shields for damage. Slipping away technique makes the plasmas run on the board longer, weakening them enough that the damage from the torps do not penatrate the shields. If done properly, the Isc damage doesn't penetrate any shield and you can close to range 1 and crush it.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 09:56 pm: Edit

I am not sure which Wyn you are referring to but they are both just about indestructible. Along with the Kzinti, they are the most durable ships around.

As for the ISC, if he fires at 10-13 and you only slip away, rather than turn away, that sounds like a recipe for either getting hit with the OL-PPD OR eating the 40 point enveloper. If you aren't careful, you could do both. Now I remember talking about this just a week ago and saying that eating the 40 point enveloper might be OK. But still if you are going to do it you had better make it count. Fiddling around until the ISC has time to fire his PPD and then get turned so he can use his rear F is not really what you want to be doing.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 10:07 am: Edit

Yeah Mike, you playing the same game we are?

Both Wyn ships are some of the most durable ships out there. Mnay times with either I try to just exchange alphas as I will be coming out ahead(especially in the AUX as it has a lot of descretionary power so taking an initial 2-3 energy from 20-30 ints really doesn't hamper its effectiveness or speed much).

For the ISC running from his stuff and then closing to range one, is really easy to say. Managing to both run and close the range makes it harder to do though. Letting all his plasma impact when run out slightly plays into the ISC game plan. Your statement is basically I will just get hit with all the ISC launches and will get range one and kill him.

Um note taking all those shield hits on all shields means when you close his 6 P1 will get internals as well as any F he launches will internal as well. As any ISC knows after the initial PPD he will be arranging an escape route during recharge which means if you are chasing him another 40 points will be inbound to deter the chase. the following turn a pair of 20s will be coming as well. So while you may reach range one eventually it seems this will be after the following damage:

24 points of PPD plus 27 points enveloper, 35 point stack during chase and then two 20 point groups plus 6 P1s. Usually this means you take some 40 or so internals(in 3 groups of aroun 12-15 per) before reaching range 1. Notably this is 2 torp hits 7 phaser hits and a couple drone hits plus some 28 worthless hits(hull, power, and other non-combat hits).

This seems to be the ISC strategem not their opponents.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 09:45 pm: Edit

I like to fly the WYN AUX because they let me park it at truck stops in the middle of the night so I can go in and grab myself a cup of coffee.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 08:20 pm: Edit

I've been flying the isc lately because I'm considering it for council. I have always liked the ship. True, it does have some bad match-ups(orion, wyn aux, etc), but one thing I like about the ship is that once the opponent has made up his mind to come at you & take whatever damage to do so, he almost HAS to kill you. I think the PPD, if it survives the close encounter, is the game breaker. When I fly the isc, after I've fired the ppd, & launched my plasma, I love it when the opponent turns off, even if it means that the plasma wont do any damage cause it means that the ppd will get another shot, & that's always a good thing. Also, the isc has a really good phaser array imho.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 09:16 pm: Edit

I don't think the Aux is that bad a match up for the ISC. 60/40 for the Aux at best, shading towards even depending on what package the Aux has. When I fly the ISC the 2 ships I hate to see are the Orion (by far the worst match-up for the ISC IMO) and the Hydran.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 12:58 pm: Edit

So, since this topic has been dead for a few months, how about a new discussion. What do people see as the most lopsided fights in the tournament, and why. Here are mine:

1. Fed vs Wyn Aux- With any reasonable options package the Fed has almost no chance against the Aux. The drones tie up his phasers and all the excess power really blunts the photon strike (assuming he hits the brick).

2. Big Plasma vs ATC- Does it get much more frustrating than this? Being forced into bolting usually, or holding your torps and trying desperately for an anchor.

3. ISC vs Orion- This is my least favorite match up to fight, probably because I have been knocked out of so many tourneys in the ISC by Orions. Unless the Orion cooperates the ISC can't concentrate enough damage to burn through the brick and do enough to prevent the Orion from mauling the ISC at close range.

4. Wyn Aux vs Orion- Another nearly hopeless match. The least maneuverable

ship against the most maneuverable one, and the Orion can match or exceed the Wyn's excess power. Once he is on your tail wearing down your shields it is all over, barring a miracle HET, and even that is not enough usually.

Those are my top 4. Lets see what you all have to say.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Big Plasma vs. the Old Andro?

Even now i think the andro has a chance.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Hyd vs WAX. I think this one is worse than Fed-WAX; the Fed can at least jackpot.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Stephen wrote: >>1. Fed vs Wyn Aux>>

Yeah, this one seems pretty brutal for the Fed. Heck, even if the Fed hits well, he is probably going to get killed anyway, as even with, like, 40 internals, the WYN is still likely to anchor the Fed and drone him to death.

>>2. Big Plasma vs ATC>>

I dunno--historically, I haven't found this one to be *too* demoralizing. Yeah, you generally have to bolt at least once, but if you hit ok (figure S/F bolt and hitting with both or at least the S), you are putting a reasonable hole in the Tholian who isn't likely doing that much more damage in return (3?xOLs and 7xP1 at R5). As long as you realize that it is generally a good idea to just turn off and leave if you can when the Tholian throws up a web and you have the option to do so, it isn't that bad of a fight--just often one where very few weapons are fired by either side for a long time.

>>3. ISC vs Orion>>

Not much experience flying either ship in this fight, but it looks pretty bad for the ISC.

>>4. Wyn Aux vs Orion>>

Yeah, also pretty brutal.

The Fed/TFH is obviously a very one sided match up.

I really, really hate the Gorn/TKE match up, primarily as the TKE has no choice but to cloak endlessly (as otherwise the Gorn kills it) but if it cloaks endlessly, the game is really rough for the Gorn as the Gorn spends its whole life running towards the TKE while it is cloaked and then gets just close enough to watch the TKE uncloak, launch an R torp, and then cloak out again, at which point the Gorn gets to launch some plasma, kill a weasel (if he'd lucky...), and then turn and run from the R torp for the next turn. Yaa.

Gorn/ISC is also pretty rough for the Gorn--if the Gorn tries a long game, unless you position yourself brilliantly, the ISC will wear you down faster, and if the Gorn goes in for the early anchor (which is likely the best plan), the ISC can survive by stopping or hitting the wall as appropriate.

-Peter

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Probably should go in RPS thread, but this is close enough.

1) Fed vs WAX is tough. But then, the WAX is tough for everybody except the Orion. At R0, the WAX (assuming HgDB) has about a 75 point alpha not counting drones. This drops off rapidly outside R2 because of the dependency on ph-3s, and to an extent also the hellbore. In addition, the WAX cannot really anchor outside R2 unless he totally catches you asleep at the helm. Both ships are two turn cycle (with a hellbore, the WAX has a strict two turn arming cycle, and it's sort of on a two-turn cycle with drones too). The Fed has more firepower, enough to outweigh the brick - but ONLY if the Fed can do something about the drones besides shoot them. In a way it is a little like the Kzinti fight, but inside out. The Fed is trying to weasel off or shoot one drone wave, while simultaneously being ready for the ship and the second wave it has on board (shooting one drone wave means being perfectly positioned at a turn break so your phasers cycle by the time the enemy ship arrives). To win, the Fed needs to somehow get organized on this timing cycle, get around the drones and get to R2 without being anchored, hit with all four photons, then somehow weasel before the WAX can anchor him. At least post-weasel acceleration restrictions won't hurt as much (you're not going anywhere anyway - you'll need another OL photon strike to kill him).

2) I think this is also not as bad as the conventional wisdom says. It is probably 7/3 vs. the Gorn and 8/2 vs the Romulans, and maybe not even that bad. The plasma ships can't ballet, but you still have the suicide anchor, the clothesline or the lucky bolt shot - or just wait for the Tholian to run out of wind.

In the Gorn at least, the Tholian's phasers aren't that much better than yours, and if he's catching plasma in web, he's not playing spider, so his phasers will not be dramatically more effective than yours. But your power curve is better and you take damage better. And sometimes he might web pseudo torps. It's not

hopeless.

3) ISC vs. Orion blows. I never could get the hang of the ISC, though. So don't expect me to say anything interesting on this.

4) Orion has a paint by numbers win here. Cloak, turn in circles until you get behind him, then uncloak and pick apart his rear shields. You have to use your direct fire package here, but phasers, photons or hellbores will all do the job, with minor differences in detail. At one point I thought phasers would be the best, but I'm no longer sure of that (and who uses phasers any more, anyway).

Other bad matchups: Lyran vs ISC (much like Fed vs. ISC) Fed vs. just about anybody

Peter: I have concluded that our approaches to the Gorn are just radically and completely opposite. I don't think ballet is a winning strategy (not that it CAN'T win, just that it doesn't give you any real advantage). I would approach the ISC much like any other ship - launch plasma until he is dead, and try to take his fire on different shields. The real risk with the ISC is that you must take advantage of your S torps early on. Once you have fired, and everyone is on a fastload plasma cycle, his plasma is just as good as yours, plus he has the PPD; and if you stay in close to defeat the PPD, he has better phasers. His ship is also nearly as durable as yours (main difference being he loses plasma on torp AND drone - a disadvantage in this case, and loss of batteries removes his fastloading advantage). Once batteries are lost, the S-torps become better than G's again. So you've got this zone where everyone is reloading but nobody has taken very serious damage, where his ship is better; but after and before that, things are OK.

Another advantage (or rather, an advantage the ISC doesn't have that he usually does) is that the ISC is not looking to OL the PPD. Even if he fires within OL range and you turn off, he'll have 50+ points of plasma in his face, which will do more damage than the OL-PPD will. Instead, he'll likely be firing in the 11-15 bracket.

Finally, I'm working on TKE tactics that can maybe stand and fight the other plasma ships without excessive cloaking or starcastling. Mostly this is so I can play it in tournaments again without everybody screaming bloody murder when I

draw two Gorns and a TKR for my opponents

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 06:48 pm: Edit

William wrote: >>I have concluded that our approaches to the Gorn are just radically and completely opposite. I don't think ballet is a winning strategy (not that it CAN'T

win, just that it doesn't give you any real advantage). >>

Uhh, me too? I have never successfully played a ballet game vs the ISC. Any ISC I have ever killed in the Gorn came from me running up to him and mugging him to death. Which happens about half the time, and usually results from the ISC doing something dumb rather than me doing something clever. I'd never advocate that trying a Ballet against the ISC is a good idea. But the anchor/mug the ISC game is, at best, 50-50.

>>Finally, I'm working on TKE tactics that can maybe stand and fight the other plasma ships without excessive cloaking or starcastling. Mostly this is so I can play it in tournaments again without everybody screaming bloody murder when I draw two Gorns and a TKR for my opponents>>

Heh. Sadly, I don't think there are any good TKE vs Gorn or TFH/TKR tactics that don't result in excessive cloaking--having only 1 heavy torp is simply too disadvantageous. And consequently results in the TKE cloaking excessively. Which is, for my money, Bad For the Game. And is argument enough, in and of itself, for removing the TKE from contention.

-Peter

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Yeah, I realized after I posted that I implied you were arguing in favor of ballet vs. ISC. When in reality I just meant, "we have different approaches to the Gorn, and in other news, ballet is not great vs. the ISC."

I am not going to rehash the old TKE arguments, but I will throw a new point into the debate: the problem, if in fact there is one, with the TKE is not the cloak - it is the extremely long range of the R-torp. After all, the TKE has at most four more power compared to the TFH when cloaked (often less, since the TKE fires its F's more often, or at least it does when I fly it). But the R-torp, fired from the center of the map, will pretty much always score some damage. An EPT-R will hit for 40 all the way out to 25 hexes distance; too much to phaser down and too far to run out if it's launched from map center. So the TKE can just camp out there, and if anyone tries to get close, can lob F's to deter closing. This depends not on the cloak but rather on the fact that, once the map center is achieved, no maneuvering is required to achieve a firing solution.

With S-torps, you can't do this. You have to chase your opponent around because if you just sit in the center of the map, they don't have the range.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 09:56 pm: Edit

William wrote: >>I am not going to rehash the old TKE arguments, but I will throw a new point into the debate: the problem, if in fact there is one, with the TKE is not the cloak

- it is the extremely long range of the R-torp. After all, the TKE has at most four more power compared to the TFH when cloaked (often less, since the TKE fires its F's more often, or at least it does when I fly it). But the R-torp, fired from the center of the map, will pretty much always score some damage. >>

There is certainly an argument to be made here--the R torp's long staying power means that you need to run all over the place just to avoid getting killed by it. That being said, if the TKE had an R torp and no cloak, it wouldn't be an issue--you run from the R torp, spend the next turn coming back, and then corner the ship with no R torp armed.

>>With S-torps, you can't do this. You have to chase your opponent around because if you just sit in the center of the map, they don't have the range.>>

Again, you are correct on this. But still, without the cloak to hide under, getting that firing position doesn't help so much--the TKE's opponent could viably outrun the R torp, eat the 2xF torps and then mug the TKE when it was torpedoless if it couldn't hide under the cloak--against a ship without a cloak, you can afford to take some damage to corner/mug it. Against a ship with a cloak, you can't so much (which is why the Romulan is generally viewed as a top tier ship and the Gorn isn't so much), 'cause the trade off is generally not worth it; taking a bunch of damage just to catch up to a cloaked ship who is going to stay cloaked until its torps are rearmed is just going to get you killed while taking a bunch of damage just to catch up to an uncloaked ship who is going to not be cloaked until its torps are rearmed often makes you win.

-Peter

By David Beeson (Monster) on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 08:35 am: Edit

give the fed the positronic flywheel against BP and Wax...

giggle... remember that thing?

Imp1. speeds please Fed: 0 others: whatever. Imp2. fed weasles imp3. 100 points of plazma obliterate weasle, speed change announcement.... speed 31!

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 08:46 am: Edit

Lyran vs ISC

I don't think this is a bad matchup, I think it's pretty even. It's also a very interesting matchup, one of my favorites to fly, playing in either ship.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Ken, Do tell?

-Andy

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 11:20 pm: Edit

I don't think the Hydran - WYN AUX game is that tough on the Hydran. As long as the Hydran is careful, it's almost even IMO.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 11:59 pm: Edit

I think the WAX is a good ship to face the Hydran in, but it's hardly hopeless for the Hydran. In the WAX, you want to make him deal with more than 4 drones in a turn while dealing with your ship. In the Hydran, you want to disrupt that timing and use the fact that you have more flexibility as far as the speed you go.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 08:50 am: Edit

I think Fed-Hyd is even; I consider the WAX-Hyd to be about 80-20, but it may just be that Moose has flown the WAX against me the majority of the times I've fought this battle.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 11:21 am: Edit

I think any ship with drones is tough on the Hydran. The more drones they got, the bigger the pain in the butt.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 12:35 pm: Edit

The lack of speed 32 drones makes it not such a bad matchup for the Hydran.

The pig really can't hurt you it 1 shot outside of R2, so its not too hard to pull him away from drones and only have to deal with 4 at once. (The corollary is you can't even scratch him outside of R2 unless you guess right)

Duel shuttle bays are your friends. I WILL arm SS vrs a pig and I pretty much expect to land a hit with at least 1.

Its not an autowin by any means, I agree with Tim that drones are bad.

You plan the engagement and come in with 4 fus loaded and 2 fighters trailing, you should come out ahead. If he turns off, you collect your fighters, kill 4 drones and try to keep on his tail. Its hard for the Pig to turn off and survive.... though 4 360 ph-1s means he can play a R4-5 turning game with you for a few turns and really wear down your side shields.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Andy K, see my Feb 16, 2006 post in this topic to see how I approach the LYR/ISC matchup from the Lyran perspective. I first learned this from Jude in the late 1990’s. At that time I was playing a lot of ISC, so Jude and I played this

more than a few times (me=ISC, Jude=LYR), and it really opened my eyes as to how competitive an expertly flown Lyran could be in this matchup. A few years later I started playing the LYR a lot and had good success from the Lyran side against other ISC players.

The Lyran definitely has the narrower margin of error in this battle. That is, if both players are just flying around randomly without a plan, making errors and not playing at a very high level, then the ISC will tend to win (this is not uncommon in ISC games). However, if both players are playing at Ace level I think the matchup becomes much more even.

I’ll be out of town for vacation next week, but when I get back we can get together and try this matchup a few times if you’re interested. I definitely used to think the ISC should win most of the time, until I flew this matchup many times.

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 04:08 pm: Edit

...its tough on the Lyran, but not impossible. I've been at both ends of it, and had it go both ways at each end.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 07:32 pm: Edit

I actually have flown the isc in this matchup a few times. Yeah, I agree with Old School on this one. I also think that the lyran should come in as quick as posssible when his sheilds are undamaged. The isc wants you to turn off, imho. I think the best way to beat it is not to oblige him. When I play the isc, after you've taken the ppd, two g torps,& my phaser strike I think things are in my favor if you turn off. If I can find a way to run & reload the ppd & get the g torps to fastload status, the lyran might have trouble getting close again. Thats why I think it's just better for the lyran to keep on coming once it's taken the damage & try to set up a hack & slash or a knife fight. The isc chances of winning go way up once an opponent turns off imho. Well, I'm not saying I'm any great isc player or anything, but I do alright in it. The games that I have played, that's pretty much how it goes.

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 10:07 am: Edit

Generally I've found (with the ISC) the following: If I fire the PPD three times, my win percentage goes way up(say)80%?. If I fire the PPD twice...maybe 50%. Fire the PPD once...maybe 20%. Of course this depends on the specifics...did he run off my PPTs, take both G's and then PPD on a down shield...? Usually that won't kill someone...you need to hit him again...usually. This is why I believe the ISC does so poorly against the Orion...th Orion can take the 'shave' and pound the ISC. The ISC doesn't really lose heavy weapons well, so once you get in .. :-P Also, once you get close to the ISC, he can't fire the thing again. If he backs ups to clear the range...oops non-aggression!

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 02:25 pm: Edit

So here is a tactical conundrum. I keep flying the Gorn and I keep getting totally

killinated by Orions. Over and over again. I have beat them on occasion, usually due to no particular genius on my part, but for the most part, the Orion seems to own me. What are good ways to approach this fight (assume the standard HgHbb or whatever)?

Trying to land plasma on a ship that is constantly speed 31, HETs twice a game, and is virtually impossible to tractor is difficult, to say the least. Bolting is a possibility, but bolting a few plasmas is unlikely to do significant internals (especially after rienforcement and drones) and alpha bolting isn't much better as even if you luck out and do 20-30 in (well, ok, 20 in--20 in and the Orion is still gold. 30 in, and the Orion is mostly dead), you are then left to get mangled on reload turns by the inevitable gatling overrun.

My standard game has been, generally speaking:

T1: Go 16 with rienforcement and a rolling delay plasma (in case he cloaks on T1, I don't want an enveloper). If he doubles both, corner dive and launch some possibly fake plasma as he comes in. If he doesn't double both, go for the center, launch some possibly fake plasma to keep him away.

T2: Arm the enveloper (figuring that if he cloaks now, I'm probably close enough to maybe keep lock-on with the plasma), go fast, take the first shot from the 4xP1 and HBs, and then chase him with the rest of the plasma, trying to shoot non bricked sheilds with phasers.

And see how it goes from there.

The Romulan can try for a delay game vs the Orion (launch plasma, cloak, launch plasma, cloak, etc--see Bill vs Paul's Orion in Victory at Origins). The Gorn? Not so much. So you gotta try agression, which gets you killed when the Orion HETs around your plasma, or you bolt into a brick.

Any ideas?

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 03:14 pm: Edit

disclaimer: I've never done this fight.

I would play the Gorn more like a DF ship in this fight. Use the S-torps (and their pseudos) to delay him while using your phas-1s and bolted plas-Fs as your primary firepower. You may turn like a boat, but you have 360 firepower and can fight out of all of your shields.

1. Power he spends to movement is power not spent on reinforcement. 2. The longer the game lasts, the better your chances.

This is basically a fight between a fast, agile "jabber" and a big, slow, slugger. You if run out there and try to land the haymaker, he'll just tire you out and kill you. You want to take the center of the ring, conserve your energy, and try and land controled punches while he runs around the ring, tiring himself out. You have to outlast the Orion, not knock him out.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Heh--yeah, that is generally how I fly it; try and push him around with plasma and try and blast the sheilds with phasers and F bolts. The problem is:

A) If the F bolts miss, you are hosed.

B) Pushing him around the map fails if he HETs around the torps to come in close for a gatling attack, which happens all the time.

C) In the long game, the HBs tend to make all your weapons fall off very quickly.

A is just luck--sometimes the Bolts miss. But generally, they tend to be really swing misses, in the sense that the bolt hitting leaves you in a strong position while the bolt missing leaves you in a very weak position. And with a 3 turn reload, it is an unfogiving kind of weak position. Oh, for the carronade...

B is the only way to make the game work for the Gorn. Envelopers, psuedoes, and eventually 50 points of actual plasma keeps the Orion from overrunning you. But as opposed to mundane opponents, you never have the threat of actually hitting with the plasma to help. You just get to launch them and watch him HET and run around a lot while he gets you with the HBs. And in situations where he can HET around the torps (which is surprisingly easy, really--in this last game, I carefully moved the torps specifically to prevent a HET around them. Until I could no longer move them to specifically prevent a HET around them...).

C is rough--the survivability of the HBs and the gat means that the few volleys you do get in have no chance of hitting the important weapons, so you can't ever luck out and blow off a good weapon (like on, say, the Hydran). And in the long run, those important weapons kill you good.

Like, I don't think it is an impossible match up, but the more I play it, the less I like it, and think it is one of the worst matchups for the Gorn.

-Peter

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 05:09 pm: Edit

While we're on the subject of tough matchups - how about TFH (or Gorn for that matter) against the ATC or THN? Webchuckers seem to make launched plasma useless. Anything to do here aside from "bolt and pray?"

Ted

P.S. I have no advice for the Gorn/Orion matchup - other than what has been stated. I have had success where the Orion allows a forward-centerline (three bolts, 6*ph-1, enveloper to stop the overrun), but that's rare given the Orion's maneuverability.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 05:09 pm: Edit

I totally agree with Peter on this one. The orion needs a downgrade OR plasma

needs an upgrade. Giving the gorn the corronade would be great also.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Ted wrote: >>While we're on the subject of tough matchups - how about TFH (or Gorn for that matter) against the ATC or THN? Webchuckers seem to make launched plasma useless. Anything to do here aside from "bolt and pray?" >>

I find the Tholians *much* less brutal than the Orion, as the Gorn, but the Gorn has the extra P1s and the different arcs over the TFH that actually help--the Tholians can really savage you, but if you remember:

A) Once they start casting web, they are going to constantly be in power defecit.

and

B) If they cast a web, just leave the area if you can't get to R5 before it solidifies.

You can do ok. Yeah, the game very often comes down to "do the bolts hit", but as opposed to this sort of thing against the Orion, if the bolts *do* hit, you put a big hole in the Tholian and get leg up--if the bolts hit the Orion, you might very well hit the brick and accomplish not much.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Brook wrote: >>I totally agree with Peter on this one. The orion needs a downgrade OR plasma needs an upgrade. Giving the gorn the corronade would be great also. >>

Heh. I don't know that I'd necessarily support any sort of change to the Orion based on this one matchup (although if the Orion wins too much across the board, which I don't think Robert's data supports, then yeah, downgrade away :-), but it is particularly brutal for the Gorn, and I'm just looking for clever

advice.

-Peter

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 06:00 pm: Edit

That's just it Peter. I really don't think there is any clever advice that one can give the gorn player that will make a difference. All things being equal the gorn will lose that fight. Just like the isc & the firehawk & the tkr, etc. I really, really think the orion needs some kind of downgrade. Maybe it could be something that could downgrade it indirectly like having a maximum amount of energy that ANY ship can put into reinforcement for a particular shield.(Like 10 points?)

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Again as I despise playing plasma take the following from the other side seeing what it hates.

Ori vs Gorn first

Orion is on a clock and anything you can do to lengthen it is the best. With a 2 hellbore package you are looking at 4-5 good turns before he has to double everything which lasts another 2 turns. So last 6-7 turns total or 3 hellbore shots.

So turn one corner dodge or whatever avoiding R5 like the plague and most likely 8 as well(a little divided if you can arrange a r8 shot on a shield you have reinforced. Launching a single S with no other plasma out there may make him believe its a psuedo and run it over(most likely after 6 p3's). This is a good job on getting ahead on shield hits.

T2 moderate spd launch an enveloper and see what he does with it. ie aborts attack run or come through it.

T3 launch nothing and just faux chase him at spd 17 or so. Hold the enveloper til imp 32 launch.

T4 he either runs from the enveloper or HET dodges it and comes in to take an F from you(launched). most of the time he'll eat it to get his shot(R4 is most likely). Exchange fire and you should still be OK.

T5 have enveloper charged and again go for imp 32 launch. Turn 6 etc. just going spd 14-17 through all these turns and make him take damage every time he comes in against you. If he just dodges envelopers all day by t7 you hopefully only have some ints on you as he comes back with highly dented shields and low

warp. At this point Std S's and the psuedos you have been holding work wonders.

Does this mean an auto win, not likely. It does put you in the game and means that your durability can last out over his fraility.

ATC Vs Big plasma

For the ATC a lot comes down to mind tricks and guessing what you opponent will take as feasible. What I like to do is a gambit on plasma launches. Mainly what an ATC will take to get an attack run in.

So launching single plasmas(psuedos, single S's, or even a single F) to make him abort the run or fire early works in your favor.

On his attack runs launching a single plasma for him to react to and then using movement to keep the distance so he has to deal with it before reaching r5 to you

is optimal. And hit with any bolts you fire

Again is this some kind of slam dunk manuever... not likely, but it helps getting a weak shield to exploit later.

Another thing I do is minimize my special shuttles to save power for reinforcement excedera.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Gorn vs Orion

How about when you think the Orion will double everything you Park or go speed 4!!!

Oh, I forgot, that will get you disqualified :-(

-Jason G

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:50 am: Edit

Kerry,

If I'm the Orion I'll drive right through the 1st ENV at full strength because there is really nothing you can do to punish me for it. I WILL avoid your "stack of 50" that you launch in response to that meaning I get a pass at you where we exchange your phasers + maybe an S bolt for my phasers and HB. I will then climb on top of you and Gat you to death.

Every time I've seen the Gorn win this its because they got a bolt shot on an unreinforced rear. However a good Onion that isn't afraid of the lizard will just camp on top of you and Gat you to death.

Remove the BR and figure out a CA that is balanced. War cruisers are broken.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:53 am: Edit

Kerry,

Yeah, that all looks pretty good on paper. And probably reasonably good in reality. The problem with the "chase him away with envelopers" plan, which I am pro, is that he can run it out for half the run, gatling/P3 it, eat it for fairly minimal damage, come back in for a HB shot before the end of the turn, and not lose much in return. And it also requires remembering to rolling delay both torps :-)

-Peter

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Well Larry,

In a gorn I am more than happy to let you eat the first full 60. And then let you avoid my follow up 20 pt Ftorp plus psuedo. If you don't avoid it and just take it(brave orion) then the phasers get to rip through the shield after the Storp impacts, or you avoid range 2.

For me enveloper plus 6 p1's + possible other torp impact against 5 p1's and 2 hells is a win for me. Most likely this exchange is 0 ints for you and 5 or so ints for me(or 35 if you swallow S #2 but you'll be getting 20 or so in on me).

Yes the next turn you can come in a phaser me to death from range one after I throw my 10 pt tractor on you there, but everytime you are coming in with weak shields I take 20 ints and give you 15 or so in return.

By the next turn and I have 40 fast ready and you have to try to both defeat a spd zero gorn tractor who requires all of 16 power leaves you little for movement even if you defeat the auction.

Usually the gorn can outlast the orion in this kind of bloodletting. This is true as internals tend to kill the engines pretty quickly, making doubling less effective.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Unless your Batts get blown off

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Exactly!!

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 06:01 pm: Edit

True, gorn starts loosing batts at around internals 35+. So its definitely possible. So maybe I can only launch one 20 pointer plus phasers through a 15 point shield.

Either way most likely only one at a time as the arcs are difficult to get a double launch from range 1.

In no way am I saying this is a slam dunk for the gorn. What I am saying is this gives the gorn a fighting chance ie in the 50-60% win range. Most gorn orion battles seem to be in the 30% win range.

By Sandy Hemenway (Firemane) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 09:32 am: Edit

I think the primary problem here is in accepting blindly the generally held belief that envelopers are needed to win.

The #1 mistake I see people make AGAINST any Orion, regardless of package, is developing the mindset that they have the power to do EVERYTHING, all the time.

Can the Orion have a brick? Sure. Can he have tons into tractor? Sure. But what almost no Orion EVER does is *BOTH*.

The #1 tactic that people dismiss against the Orion is the Gorn anchor - and they shouldn't. The mindset of "most" Orions is that because they "CAN" have an anchor-proof cache of tractor energy available, the enemy won't ever try it, so they go ahead and shove all that energy to movement, weapons and shields.

A Gorn who holds regular S-torps is going to have more POWER to deal with the Orion. A turn one psuedo+F launch can buy a turn, and quite likely reveal a lot about what is in the Orion's head movement-wise. You get to see where he opted to put reinforcement. Then again, maybe you launch a real S by itself, waiting for him to commit his phasers and/or shield reinforcement, either buying time, or quite likely, significantly denting a shield. If you see his total reinforcement numbers, then you've learned something about his power allocation, and you begin to open the door to figuring out what your likely anchoring possibilities might be at some point in the future.

ANY tactic set which gets too predictable is exploitable. So, against an Orion, sometimes you have to think outside the box a bit.

In many cases, Orion players 'believe' that since their ship is the most maneuverable that they don't HAVE to pay attention to their movement, and it can get them into trouble - even against a Gorn.

I've moderated more than one game on-line, where the Orion *COULD* have

been anchored quite easily if the opposition had considered the possibility at all. Sometimes, even when so much of the Orion EA was 'in the window', that the opponent could have computed the Orion could NOT have more than 2-3 points of power left over, including bats.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 11:03 am: Edit

Kerry,

My point is, with 2 HETS, there is no chance you will hit me with anything other than what I let you hit me with. I don't mind taking a 20 point F on the #3 or #5. I don't mind taking a full ENV. A Full ENV means it didn't control my movement. The best thing is when someone takes my ENV for 44 or 30. I love that. They took damage, but still moved away. WEEEEEEE.

I pretty much agree with Sandy here. You HAVE to make the onion pause and go, "Hmmm... I wonder if he can anchor me?" 100 points in the tubes, even if you can only get 80 in arc is going to make an onion pause. And if you take a R4 shot and he turns away, you might get lucky and light up his rear area with a good bolt volley.

Its still about 7-3 in the onions favor in my opinion.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:50 pm: Edit

One of the (few) advantages the ISC has in this matchup is the Amazing Long Range Reinforcement Detector. It has a harder time doing the "launch enough to make the Orion wonder" thing due to rear firing F torps. Against the Orion, the

PPD is a one use weapon.

By Sandy Hemenway (Firemane) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 01:11 pm: Edit

What gets me about most people facing Orions is that they equate the feared brick with an inability to do damage.

What they often forget is that the INSIDE of the Orion is soft and chewy - and that 20 reinforcement is there to MAKE UP for the 20 internals the ship doesn't have - and that the ship is reducing further thru doubling.

The Gorn doesn't HAVE to have 100 points o' plasma to cripple an Orion, any more (or less) than he does to cripple any other ship.

The thing is - every other ship doesn't have to 'do' anything to have those 20 internals. The Orion *HAS* to employ the 20-point brick to have them. Basically, if the Orion messes up in usage of reinforcement, then he gets screwed quickly.

The truth is, the Gorn has a phaser suite that BY ITSELF, can cause the Orion a

great deal of grief. If the Gorn uses his p3s and tractors and shuttles to negate any drones that are around, after the Orion is done playing fancy movement tricks against the plasma, the 6-8 p1s can knock down a shield on their own.

AFTER a shield goes down, the Orion then has MAJOR issues in regards to envelopers.

A Gorn can plan on going 13 for move of the turn with a burst of 26 at what he believes to be the key time, and end up on pretty good power footing against an Orion during an attack pass.

If the Orion has HBs, especially, the attack turn gets a bit pricey power-wise.

The Gorn is a pretty tough TC, so trading internals anywhere close to even with the Orion leads to a Gorn win. If the Gorn is running 15 internals behind, it's actually a pretty even fight. The key is not getting lost in the 'feeling' that plasma can't or doesn't work. It's not just the case that the Orion's advantages CAN mute the effectiveness of torps, it's also a case that the Orion *HAS* to mute those effects just to stay even with other TCs.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Sandy wrote: >>Can the Orion have a brick? Sure. Can he have tons into tractor? Sure. But what almost no Orion EVER does is *BOTH*.>>

This is correct. But that it can do either means that you have to guess right. Which is often the game on a coin flip.

>>The #1 tactic that people dismiss against the Orion is the Gorn anchor - and they shouldn't. The mindset of "most" Orions is that because they "CAN" have an anchor-proof cache of tractor energy available, the enemy won't ever try it, so they go ahead and shove all that energy to movement, weapons and shields. >>

The Orion can easily have 5 points of power in tractor, while moving fast, HETing, and arming weapons. And still have a bit left over for rienforcement. At least for the first 5 turns or so. Add in batteries, and the Gorn is not catching the ship at R2 (the closest the Orion ever needs to get).

>>In many cases, Orion players 'believe' that since their ship is the most maneuverable that they don't HAVE to pay attention to their movement, and it can get them into trouble - even against a Gorn. >>

Relying on your opponent to do things that are dumb is not really a good strategy to follow.

Have you played this match-up recently?

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Peter. Most Orions will not usually have 5 points of allocated tractor; they will usually rely on their opponent's assumption about their amount of allocated tractor to dissuade such attempts. Or, to put it another way, most Orions won't sit there and watch 5 points of their dwindling power sit useless turn after turn in the tractor box.

Plus, even if you try it once and fail, you will guarantee your Orion opponent will always put power in tractor, which means less power for reinforcement and movement.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Hey All

chirping in on the Orion issue.

The Orion and Gorn have been unmodified since before time was time. They both have won Rats and Gold Hats.

Hence I'm not inclined to think it is ship balance.

1) as an Orion I find Gorns harder to beat than Rommies. 2) If I had to face an Orion I'd rather fly a Rommie than a gorn. 3) In an Orion I suck vs ISC. My personal win ratio is like 0-5.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense but there it is. I think it is a matter of play style more than anything.

Remember trying to kill an old Andy in a BP?

I think new BP players are soft because they never had THAT pleasure.

Here are 2 quick ideas to fight vs the Orion in a BP. Neither of these are rocket science although implementation can be an art. If you haven't seen these yet, or have problems implementing them. Get out a map, & push things around. You'll see it. They both are useful, if risky.

1) Follow your first Plasma, when he Hets back on the first launch a second. 2) Launch the first plasma. Then take a cut off vector and launch a plasma from in front of him while there is another chasing him.

Bret

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>Most Orions will not usually have 5 points of allocated tractor; they will usually rely on their opponent's assumption about their amount of allocated tractor to dissuade such attempts. Or, to put it another way, most Orions won't sit there and watch 5 points of their dwindling power sit useless turn after turn in the tractor box.>>

They don't need to allocate the tractor all the time--you can see when you will or will not need to get within range 2 based on map position. If you are caught in a corner, 5 points of tractor means you don't get caught and killed. If you are in the middle of the map and are planning on shooting at R4 and getting outta dodge, you don't need to allocate tractor.

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Heh. In general, I am in agreement with Peter - hoping your opponent miscalculates (to use a more polite term) does not qualify as sound strategy. Recall, RPS is supposed to be Ace-vs-Ace! I would be Shocked if any modern ORI ace allowed himself to get Gorn-anchored. Actually, I would extend that statement to non-Orions as well; defenses against anchor tactics are very well developed in modern tourney play, much more so than was the case in the 1980s (yes I was there). It's not hopeless, but the Gorn is disadvantaged in this fight.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:56 am: Edit

I'ld have to say I agree with Sandy (actually I've never found myself disagreeing with him ever) on the power assumptions. It's actually amazing how many people see a Romulan cloak on the first and possibly the second turn and just keep assuming that the cloak has been paid for each and every turn. So they never run in and tractor because they assume they won't reach the enemy in five impulses. And people bolt when they really shouldn't because they think the plasmas will loss lock on in five impulses. Then suddenly the Romulan has a lot of power for shield reinforcement and EW and EM and never quite takes equal damage even though the weapons being thrown around are pretty even. There's only so much the enemy can do at once!

Thinking your enemy has planned a counter to your attack is quite self-obsorbed and leads to a lot of losses. Your enemy might indeed have a counter...but that doesn't mean he definately does.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 01:39 am: Edit

Gold Hat 2006 my Gorn won both games vs the Orion with the Gorn-anchor! In both games the anchor was done with F-torps and a single fast-load but 40-60 points of plasma plus phasers can still really hurt an Orion.

-Jason G

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 01:49 am: Edit

I suspect that mjc has in fact again forgotten this is the tournament section.

The thing about defending against the anchor is that at R2-R3, assuming you have your batteries, you really only need 3 or 4 points allocated to make an anchor prohibitively expensive. 4 points allocated + 4 battery means 18 points of power needed for the Gorn at R2. I find that anchoring happens in two cases: either 1) the opponent has got into a position where he can't avoid it because the map wall is in the way, or 2) because he's burned his batteries already. #1 never happens to the Orion, and #2 is pretty hard to force if you've allocated half your power to tractor, too.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 07:50 am: Edit

That, or just try to end the turn within tractor range of the Orion. He won't have the power, in EA, to stop a possible tractor, run awy, and brick. He'll usually just do 1 and 2 because he can't afford to guess wrong whereas the Gorn can, but some may take the chance.

Part of this game is forcing your opponent to make difficult decisions, forcing him to guess your intentions and commit to that guess. The Orion is as susceptable to this as any other ship.

By Sandy Hemenway (Firemane) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 09:32 am: Edit

What Andy said. :-)

My point is not to "assume" that the enemy is going to make stupid decisions. The point is that the Orion's power plant is NOT infinite, which is a perception that many players slip into without realizing it.

Okay - in ace-to-ace play, anchoring should be more difficult. But a lot of my knowledge on the Gorn/Orion matchup is based on PBEM games I've played in, moderated, or just watched. And knowing the moderators, (Jim Hart and Steve Rushing moderated bunches of game), I was privvy to a LOT of EAs over the years from Orions.

What I saw as a "common" reality was that most Orion players would "assume" that they could always control the range 100% - that no matter what the enemy did, the ship would save them.

So, "as a rule", most Orions didn't allocate ANY power to tractor on most turns. I found this to even be true when flying against drone races!!!

Against plasma races, the general reality was that weasels energy was MUCH more common than plasma energy. An Orion wouldn't think twice about arming 3 or even all 4 shuttles as weasels, and blithely forego tractor power turn after turn.

The thing is - the game isn't just about rules and tactics and analysis. It's also about psychology. I'm not advocating anchor as "the" strategy to win against an Orion. I'm saying that it is a mistake to dismiss it out of hand as a strategy.

A 'recurring' theme I saw in PBEM games was a tendency for Orions to head to the battery trough early and often, where they'd use their 'paid' HET to double-back on the first plasma salvo - run into R2 for their alpha, then drain their bats to run away. On more than one occasion, I witnessed Orions who COULD have been snagged at R3 for 3 points of tractor energy.

The 'stock' tactical suggestions I've seen are that this is when the Gorn is 'supposed' to bolt on the rear shields. I believe more Gorns would win this battle if at these critical points, they'd give the 3 (or 6) point tractor attempt a stab rather than 'surrendering' to the 'invetible' bolt.

The psychological point here is that if the Gorn falls into the 'he's got power everywhere' mindset, he's definitely putting himself in a hole before the game begins. But I know from experience that the Orion has equal potential to BELIEVE he has unlimited power and do 'sloppy' allocating because of the arrogance.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:21 am: Edit

In particular, given the "standard" anti-plasma package of two hellbores, gat, two drones...

If you see an OL'd hellbore, you can presume batteries were used for it.

At that point, he's got about 3 points available for tractors, assuming 1 battery and one per beam.

If he powered one beam, and you powered one beam, you win the auction at range two.

If he didn't power any beams, you win the auction at range 3.

Orions in tractor beams are so much fun.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:57 am: Edit

Sandy wrote: >>My point is not to "assume" that the enemy is going to make stupid decisions.

The point is that the Orion's power plant is NOT infinite, which is a perception that many players slip into without realizing it.>>

This isn't a problem with perception. It is a problem of reality. I'm not saying that the Orion is unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination--I have beaten Orions in the Gorn. But as RPS goes, this is a particularly rough match up (defenitely 4/6, maybe 3/7 for the Gorn). No, the Orion does not have infinite power. But it does have an awful lot. And the speed 31 for most of the turn and double free HETs means that landing plasma is rough. The Orion doesn't need a huge brick against the Gorn's DF, as it is difficult to get more than 4xP1s on target on any particular impulse, especially considering that there are usually 4 drones the Gorn has to deal with as well. Anchoring is rough, as the Orion needs to play along and then not have tractor power also. Bolting is a hard gamble--if you roll well, you can win, but if you roll badly, it usually ends the game for you right there.

>>Okay - in ace-to-ace play, anchoring should be more difficult.>>

That is what we are talking about here.

>>So, "as a rule", most Orions didn't allocate ANY power to tractor on most turns. I found this to even be true when flying against drone races!!!>>

I don't think that is an example of "good play".

>>The thing is - the game isn't just about rules and tactics and analysis. It's also about psychology. I'm not advocating anchor as "the" strategy to win against an Orion. I'm saying that it is a mistake to dismiss it out of hand as a strategy.>>

Who is dismissing it out of hand? It is an option that, if it presents itself, is certainly worth taking advantage of. But as anchoring goes in general, grabbing the Orion is rough. Sure, once and a while, the Orion will get sloppy and you'll get lucky and grab him at R3 with a tractor or something, and you'll win, and it will be a great story. But the vast majority of the time, this just isn't going to happen.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Peter. You aren't going to find a "this will work every time in the Gorn-Orion matchup" tactic. The Gorn has to force difficult power decisions upon the Orion, and then grab as much advantage out of those difficult decisions as possible. The anchor, and the threat of the anchor, is one of those parameters that can influence those reactions.

Heck, even a turn 2 strength 2 range 3 tractor attempt could be enough to force the Orion to sink 3-4 power into tractor every turn. That is 6 power to cause ~20

to be spent. Even against the Gorn, the Orion can't afford to be tractored or misplace their brick and the more power you "force" him to handle those possibilities, the less able he will be to defeat you.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>Peter. You aren't going to find a "this will work every time in the Gorn-Orion matchup" tactic.>>

I'm not looking for one, really. I was just looking for some reasonable plan/advice, and really, Kerry's initial post on the subject was probably the best advice/plan that has come out of this discussion.

The rest of the discussion that has evolved is, well, for my part, I'm just trying to dispel what I see as misinformation :-)

-Peter

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 12:51 am: Edit

Sheap:

Actually my intention was just to say "Hey Sandy good to see ya around" but it reminded me of something that happened in a recent game.

By Michael Ma (Mma) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 11:40 am: Edit

I've been reading some of the tournament reports and I have a few questions.

What makes the Hydran and Wyn Black Shark so popular? I've personally liked the Kzinti because I'm a Larry Niven fan.

For gameplay I could not say why the Kzinti popular, only guess. I only got to play a handful of games when SFB first came out. I didn't actually play again until a couple of weeks ago. I like drones because they save energy which I never have enough of. And they are seeking weapons that do not dissipate, so there's less book-keeping compared to plasmas, just have to track damage and endurance.

The Hydran and Wyn though, not sure. I'm going to read the tactics section (by race) and see if it sheds any light.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Michael wrote: >>What makes the Hydran and Wyn Black Shark so popular? I've personally liked the Kzinti because I'm a Larry Niven fan.>>

The Black Shark is popular because it is pretty effective and very forgiving of mistakes. It takes damage very well, is very damaging up close, and has (most of the time) 4 drone racks which automatically gives it respect. All things being equal, I'd rather take the Kzinti over the Shark (the Kzinti is easily one of the best TCs in the game), due to the increased drone options and even better ability to take damage. The Klingon is also similar, but kind of harder to fly--the Kzinti and Klingon are both better than the Shark in a grand sense, but the Kzinti has a few bad matchups that the Shark doesn't so much, and the Klingon is super good if you know how to use it, but is difficult to master.

I'm kind of mystified as to why the Hydran is so popular, as while it can be good, it often dies to horrible internals ("I took 3 internals! P1, P1, Hellbore! Yaa!"), but in theory, is pretty good. Hellbores are strong. Phaser Gs are strong. The fighters themselves can vaporize your opponent if they aren't careful. I think the last game I played in a Hydran, I won, as in, like, 60 internals, I didn't lose a single Hellbore. Which is unlikely, but happens. Much like you often lose one on 3 internals.

-Peter

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 03:16 pm: Edit

The Hydran is popular because 1) it is extremely durable. It might not be able to handle 3 nasty internals, but it takes a normal volley of 60 as well or better than anyone. 2) It has 40 power. Sure, it needs it. But so do all the other ships, and most of them only have 38. 3) Hellbores are nasty weapons. You can't turn a good shield. You can't run away from it like you can a seeking weapon. There's a reason why most Orion and WYN packages include them. 4) It is very versatile. It has 5 different weapons systems - HBs, fusions, gatlings, p1s and fighters - each with its own dynamic. 5) In theory, it can do more damage at range 0 than anyone else. In practice, this never happens, but the potential is there, and influences the game.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 03:59 pm: Edit

I totally agree with Andy's assessment of the Hydran. But the inability to handle those 3 internals strikes me as the main problem with the ship--a buddy of mine was playing against a well known Fleet Captain at Origins a few years ago, and his Lyran got to R4 on the Fleet Captain's Hydran, fired an alpha, did a few internals, blew off a HB, turned, fired a couple more P1s, blew off the other HB (well, or something like this). Fleet Captain was like "Ok then. Time to re-enter in a new ship..."

Hellbores are crazy weapons, yeah, but I'd rather have them on the WYN or Orion, where they don't get shot off.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 04:01 pm: Edit

With its fighters, the range 0 direct fire damage potential of the Hydran is well over 200 (Assuming regular overloaded fusions on the ship and overloaded

hellbores, and two fully loaded fighters, average damage is 219 - the total damage can go to nearly 300 assuming suicide overloads and good rolls).

Like Andy said - in realistic play that's not going to happen, but its sufficiently scary that it forces your opponent to take measures to prevent instant blow-up through a reiforced, pristine shield. The overrun threat of the Hydran is, IMO, one of its strongest features.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 04:03 pm: Edit

I also totally agree with Peter. The Hydran is extremely vulnerable to the Mizia effect - the Hydran often dies due to lack of remaining weapons. That's it's greatest weakness.

[Edit: The Fighters are also tactically interesting. I once watched a game in which the Hydran ship was utterly gutted - basically a useless wreck while the opponent Fed turned off. However, the Hydran ended up winning because the Fed wasn't fast enough or maneuverable enough to avoid the previously launched (and ignored) fighters, which ended up killing the Fed.

Most opponents know of this deadly ability of the fighters - and will kill them quickly. However, the Hydran can take advantage of this fact and force the opponent to expend firepower on the fighters and not on the Hydran ship. This tactic is usually used as a prelude to an unavoidable overrun. Be careful, though, as once you are out of fighters you are behind.]

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Drone & Disruptor ships are all pretty similar to each other and have big time durability advantages: * Having both drone & disruptor hits keeps you from losing too many phasers. * Disruptors are a one-turn repair, and since they are a one-turn arming weapon, can fire immediately after being repaired. Compare this to a plasma-F or a photon, which take two (or three) turns to repair, followed by two (or three) turns to arm. A disruptor damaged in an initial exchange of fire can be repaired and rearmed in the same amount of time it takes just to rearm an *undamaged* photon. This is a really great advantage, but it's also basically the only thing

about disruptors that is any good, so enjoy it. * Drone racks are also a one-turn repair. They are empty when you repair them, but can (occasionally) be reloaded, or can absorb another hit. * D&D ships tend to have lots of phaser-3's, so lose less firepower to phaser hits on the DAC. * Every-turn firing weapons means you always have a threat and rarely lose weapons before they can be used, whereas multi-turn ships usually end up losing partly armed weapons in a knife fight.

Compared to the Kzinti and Klingon, the Shark has much better hull. The Kzinti

and Klingon both have predominantly aft hull, and the Klingon has a serious shortage even of that.

All this adds up to the Shark being an exceptionally durable ship. What "durable" means varies in circumstances. The Hydran takes one hit of 60 internals better than anybody, but the Shark is much better against three volleys of 20, which is a far more common thing to have happen in a real game.

I don't think the Hydran is a very good ship in practice; not horribly bad, but on the low end of average. I think people play it because it is fun, intimidating and cool, and is really quite good until someone damages it.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 06:25 pm: Edit

well as long as the hydran plans it correctly even after damaged its still a brute if it reaches r2 or closer.

If on the way in the hydran hits range 4 and fires 2 p1, and a std hellbore to notch a facing shield and to absorb expected damage and then closes to R1 non- centerlined with non overloads its damage is 38 plus the hellbore 10 mizia damage. Centerlined it raises to 57 plus the hellbore damage. All this is then plus fighter damage(but if outside of 2 the damage is average of 9). After the initial volley the hydran is usually in pretty good shape as its 7th shield of 18 center hull absorbs a lot before power or batts get damaged. If the hydran can get a good blast in the hells will mizia nearly ever turn afterwords.

The problem is most Ace players know this as well and do a lot to avoid coming that close before the hydran can be hit with a second alpha.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 08:38 pm: Edit

I personally prefer the Shark with an ADD rack in one of its options.

The Klingon, Shark, and Kzinti compose the range of scales of disruptor/drone ships, with the Klingon having the weakest drones and best direct fire and the Kzinti having the strongest drones and worst direct fire. The Shark sits firmly in the middle with its standard configurations (3-4 drone racks). Both the Klingon and Kzinti have a Scatter Pack, but this is balanced by their reduced durability, compared to the Shark.

The Hydran is so popular because it is fun to fly. 1. It hides power very, very well as it has 40 and has fusion beams. 2. It is very flexible. While everyone fears the R0-1 attack, it can knock down a shield at range 10 and can dance around with its hellbores. 3. The fighters are controllable seeking weapons with ranged attacks. If used well, they can severely reduce your opponent's alpha strike.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:49 am: Edit

The essence of the Hydran (and much of the fun) can be summed up as "Michael

Jordan". Death by dunk, or a bunch of fadeaways.

If you don't guard against it, the TLM can get a shot inside range 2 that will put you on a poster in no time flat (triple-digit internals, or the more prosaic "60 odd in two volleys TKO").

If you DO guard against the overun, the Hydran can shoot fadeaways (hellbore snipe) with the odds well in his favor. Eventually, you fall bellow the "stop overun" threshold, and it's back to the poster.

The thing is, the Hydran can do both with the same EA, so he can head in and play it by ear. The good news is, you KNOW 80% of the Hydran's power curve, the bad is if he figures your's out, things can get VERY ugly.

The thing that the Hydran fears is a solid range 4 exchange that does not become a knife-fight immediately afterward. The sniping weapons are VERY vulnerable to bad luck on internals. To this end, the Hydran will be doing his best to make that first shot problematic (iron jaw, going by at range 6, slipping the fighters in front etc).

The "holy trinity" for the TLM are the fighters, the HBs, and the #1 shield. If all three are still viable, the Hydran is deadly. Even with two it is very strong. Reduce it to one and it becomes one-dimensional, lose all three without doing buckets of damage and it's game over.

The other thing is the Hydran needs to carry WWs against most seeking weapon races. If you can stop and clear everything inbound in 2 impulses, your close-in attack is fearful. Not so if your gats get tied-up with seekers.

Plus the bats and shuttles live forever (18 hull). You can swap large damage in single volleys with plasma and Wyns and expect to win the knife-fight.

So short form why the Hydran? Because I can kill you quick or kill you slow, and your best play is rough to pull off (you need that range 4 shot, but you also must avoid the fighters and ship). And I don't have to decide my tactics in EA.

Andrew Dederer

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:50 am: Edit

Larry said "War cruisers are broken."

I'm mystified every time I see this.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 10:47 am: Edit

Because they are.

They are either totally dominating or complete junk.

They don't balance well.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Current War Cruisers:

Wyn Aux: With the restriction to 2 local mounts and only 1 Gat it is hardly dominating. The only ship it truly dominates is the Fed, every other ship can give it a decent fight.

Orion: While this ship dominates 2 of my favorite ships (ISC and Wyn Aux), it is balanced against the field overall.

LDR: A below average ship, but far from totally helpless.

Andro: Currently horrible, but don't think it has much to do with being a war cruiser, more to do with being an Andro.

ATC: A good ship, verging to very good in the hands of someone who is extremely good with web. The fact that there are so few of those keeps this ship from being

overpowering

Won't even discuss the paytest war cruisers as they all are weak (as they should be since there are perfectly good ships for their races anyway).

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 01:14 am: Edit

While I think games involving war cruisers contain a wider RPS range than many MC1 ships, I fail to see how they are broken. I don't see any of the ships dominating the tournament scene. The best one of the bunch is the Orion, and you have to put a lot of work into being consitantly good with it. I can see how flying against a war cruiser can be annoying due to the higher speeds and excess power, but I find many MC1 ships to be annoying to fly against as well. Namely the ISC, Kzinti and cloaking Roms. Do I think they are broken? Nope. Just annoying.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 03:53 am: Edit

The excess power isn't because they are CWs. No one would accuse the LDR or especially the ATC of having too much power. (Worse - look at the ISC CW tournament ship - it's even slower than the CA!). The WAX, Orion and Andromedan - sure - but the WAX has 37 power on its CW hull, and the Orion and Andromedan, obviously, are the Orion and Andromedan. The reputation of "brokenness" for CWs is just because all the wild & crazy ships happen to be CWs, not because being a CW makes them wild & crazy. If anything, CWs are weaker

than their CA counterparts. Would anyone really want to face an Orion CA in the tournament?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 09:26 am: Edit

I'll face the Orion CA. Just give me an extra R torp.

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:41 am: Edit

=== (Assuming therapist's position by the couch..)

Soo, Mr. Fay, how long have you had zis

obsession with big torpedoes?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Well, it all started in the boys locker room in middle school, when I realized that I

was inadequate.....

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 12:22 pm: Edit

The Orion CA is fixable - it just needs a combination of: 1. limits on doubling (perhaps max of 1 warp engine per turn?) 2. better options for option mounts (current options are anemic, requiring an anchor methodology)

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 01:21 pm: Edit

" While I think games involving war cruisers contain a wider RPS range than many MC1 ships,"

That is the very definition of broken.

Any attempt to claim the Onion doesn't have a massive RPS advantage over MANY ships will be met by derision from my corner of the board. Look at the average numbers in the RPS grids from the top 20 players. Enough said.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 10:13 pm: Edit

I think the Orion is definitely one of the top ships in the tourney today, if not the top ship. If I'm really out to win, I'll bring my Orion. Now if the Fed ever got evened out enough that it got played a little more, that would tone it down a little.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:24 am: Edit

Lyrans are tough on the Orion as well, but of course they don't get played that much either.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:24 am: Edit

Yeah, I'm with Brian on this one. The Orion is kind of crazily good, still. I don't know if I would claim it needs a downtweak necessarily, but it is certainly very top tier. That it gets two option packages and two HETs is kind of insane. I realize that the two packages is in there for some sort of flavor or something, but it is really likely unecessary. The WYN does just fine on one package of weapons. Does the Orion *really* need the opportunity to take a risky package and then have the ability to swap out the risky one when it becomes risky?

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Peter, how did you feel about the Orion when you where flying the Kzinti?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 01:59 pm: Edit

It was still a tough match up--wasn't as bad as when I'm a plasma ship, but the games that I did ok against the Orion generally either were rediculously long (there was one game vs Casey Charles at Origins one year where not one internal was scored till T10, and that was a single lucky bridge hit through a cloak shift...)and most other victories came by virtue of me playing sit-n-spin while the Orion got frustrated burning engines and did something rash.

I think the Orion is the ship voted most likely to convince someone to play non agressively (much like the TKE is the ship voted most likely to play non agressively :-). Which is something that the tournament seems to want to get away from. And as for most folks, the only way to survive against the Orion is to stop and starcastle, this strikes me as a dynamic that is probably antithetical to where the tournament wants to be.

-Peter

By Perry Lyons (Yalenusveler) on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 01:43 am: Edit

I have a question....why was the old andro so dominant? I've taken a look at the new andro, and don't see the fear. Now, if it was armed with TRH as standard...then yeah, makes SOME bit of sense, and Big plasma would have issues, but beyond that, what made it such a beast?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 10:13 am: Edit

It did too much damage, didn't take much damage, could regenerate all of its defenses really easy, and was virtually immune to seeking weapons.

The standard base line Andro attack consisted of flying to R3 off centerline, blasting them in the face for 50+ damage, and displacing away. From R3 on the front panels, very few TCs (the Fed, and maybe the Lyran if you hit the ESGs) could crack the front panels and do any significant (let alone any) internals while

taking 20 some odd internals in return. The ship bounces away and runs and dumps the panels, refilling the battteries, and then eventually comes back and does it again, except this time, the non Andro has a down sheild and 20 internals.

Then, from there, folks realized that the Andro could take some internals and still do the same thing, so they developed the R0 overrun, which was more or less the same thing, except that the Andro took some extra damage but left the galactic ship a wreck. And then the Andro left and dumped its panels and came back to kill you.

Sometimes the disdev failled, and the ship died. Sometimes the opponent got lucky, diced like a god, and the ship died. Most of the time, however, the game was incredibly demoralizing and frustrating for the non Andro, they got killed, and usually didn't even do any internals.

If you can find a copy of any of the Captain's Logs that have the Victory at Origins articles from when either Lee Larson or Paul Scott won in the Andro, you see what the issue was--most of those games ended with "And then my opponent resigned as he had 40 internals and 2 down sheilds, and I was yet to take an internal..."

-Peter

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 03:29 pm: Edit

THN vs FED

My initial though was play an ankle biter game with what ever disrs I can afford while staying away. Result THN goes boom.

New Idea: Assuming the Fed doesn't give me a free "catch" on the first turn. Plan to use the 1st turn web to get in close to the fed and trade ra 1 shots I take 92-102 ish if the Fist & all 4 disrs hit he takes 108 ish. 88-98 more likley (one-two of those suckers is gonna miss)

Anyone have any luck trying this?

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 04:15 pm: Edit

You're more likely going to take about 104.

Photons = 64 Phasers = 40 ish

I think it's even as long as you have him centerlined off either his #2 or #6

shield. Be careful of him trying to HET next impulse to bring off-side phaser to bear because they may just blow you up. In other words, make sure that you're down #1 isn't pointing at him the following impulse.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Never played this matchup from the THN side, although I have played it from the FED side.

What's wrong with THN aiming for late turn range 8 attack? The FED is not going to kill you from range 8 unless he gets really lucky, and the THN should have the advantage once the FED has to rearm the photons. If the FED holds fire from range 8, then the THN can run/evade behind the webcaster and try to exploit the down shield on later turns. Honestly, I don't see how the FED will get a range 4 or closer shot unless unless the THN allows it.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 04:53 pm: Edit

In the game that started this conversation I corner dodged on turn 1, to avoid the range 8 attack and allow me to finish my photons. This gave me a good amount of power to use turn 2 for speed and a little reinforcement. As the Fed I played a very patient game, not firing a single weapon until late in turn 3 when we finally exchanged range 1 alphas.

The only way I would fire photons at range 8 would be at the end of a turn if I was facing a weak shield or the #1 shield. Otherwise i think the Fed needs to be patient here, as the NTC is not as maneuverable as the ATC and is more dependent on it's disruptors, thus not as good at playing spider.

I disagree with Ken here, as I think that eventually the Fed will get his shot, even if he has to burn his HET bonus or web dive to get it, and he needs to make it count. Otherwise the Fed will eventually be picked apart.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 08:36 pm: Edit

I've played this one a few times as the Fed and won every time. Against the ATC too. I think this is a sucky matchup for either Tholian. Steve's thinking is spot-on what I believe. Just be patient, keep him in front of you and don't panic.

The problem with firing at range 8 is that you then have to turn away, where the Fed can blast you on a rear shield and get decent internals with average dice. It's possible that the 15-20 internals he takes will get some batts. Then the Tholian would be fighting an uphill battle unless he can find a way to get turned around quick (like HET,meaning lesspower for reinforcement or weapons) and punish the Fed before he reloads.

In the general matchups department, I'd say that the Fed is king of the direct fire ships. Whant I mean by this is that the Fed matches up well against every pure DF ship out there like the Hydran, Lyran, Tholians, Selt, etc... Not a walkover on some of these, but still a good deal for the Fed. It's the guys with seeking

weapons you have got to watch out for!

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 11:10 pm: Edit

I think everyone should run up to r1 on the Fed. They have an excellent chance of winning from there!

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Actually, it's not a bad gameplan if you can make it work out right. Having him take down half his facing shield with his own feedback can be helpful...

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 08:48 am: Edit

Well I've only ever done the fire 4 OLs at R8 to the fed while web forms and then doing the r5 or less followup phaser hose.

Normally this either garners a few internals or dents 2 shields real good(but with the thols manuever you can usually choose the shield. With a HET getting the other p1's in it could work out for more ints.

with Snare placement on the way in you have a chance to avoid return fire for awile.

This can normally be arranged near the end of a turn so the return fire doesn't occur til next turn. Unluckily unless you have hit a phot or 3 phasers, the fed invariably charges the Web and gets a range 4 return shot, if he can see past any snare there. If he is missing a phot then you can survive the 2 hits plus phasers.

Unluckily this is a lot of ifs that need to go your way or else as someone always said, just roll well and the fed will be down 2 phots before firing on you.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 03:01 pm: Edit

When the Fed gets inside R8 from the Tholian he should be moving every impulse. Otherwise he runs the risk of mizia damage when he is sitting still. Mizia is the only way the Tholian can even have a chance of getting two photons, and even then the odds are still pretty slim.

To score internals at all, the Tholian needs to hit all four OL disruptors. Even then, unless he turns in to get his offside phasers into arc, AND gets the mizia shot, he's only going to do about a dozen internals, less after reinforcement. The ATC can get 7P1 in arc without turning in, though only 3 disruptors. So it's only a little bit better.

So, even if he does turn in and get all 4 OL + 7P1s, he's looking at below 25% odds of hitting two photons, mizia or no mizia. Firepower is just not enough on the Tholians to beat the Fed up in this way. Only way to beat the Fed is to reliably and accurately play spider with R2 phasers, or catch him in web and poke him in the #1 shield at R5 or longer.

By Michael Ma (Mma) on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 05:44 pm: Edit

A bit off-topic but...what does RPS stand for?

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Rock-Paper-Scissors

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Rock Paper Scissors means....

Klingon beats Fed but loses to Gorn

Fed beats Gorn but loses to Klingon.

Gorn bears Klingon but loses to Fed.

Therefore, each ship is "wrong" somehow but changing one of them just screws them all up even worse.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Michael Ma,

RPS stands for "Rock, Paper, Scissors", after the children's game. It is used as shorthand to describe a situation in which Ship A can defeat Ship B, which can defeat Ship C, which can defeat Ship A. If Ship A can defeat any opponent, you need to make Ship A weaker. But in an RPS situation, if you make Ship A weaker to make it a good match for Ship B, you have made the C versus A matchup an even worse problem than it previously was.

By Michael Ma (Mma) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 11:36 am: Edit

Aha! Thanks. I've just gotten back into the game.

As I mentioned before Kzinti was my favorite race because I'm a Niven fan. However I'm thinking about expanding my horizons and playing different ships.

I'm also more fond of shorter games than 8 hour marathons. I do enjoy the occasional long game, just not in the tournaments.

I've noticed that adding drones in the game definitely slow it down (much like plasmas, the cloak, or the web). So as much as I like the Kzinti I'm going to move on to speedier pastures.

Based upon what I've read here, it seems that the Hydran, Orion and Wyn Black Shark would be decent choices, if I stay away from Drone or Plasma options. I'm leaning towards ships that are glass-cannons...so I'm thinking Orion...it just doesn't seem to have enough firepower to back up it's relative fragility. I'm not sure about jumping on the Wyn BS or Hydran LM bandwagon though.

Thoughts?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Michael wrote: >>I've noticed that adding drones in the game definitely slow it down (much like plasmas, the cloak, or the web). So as much as I like the Kzinti I'm going to move on to speedier pastures.>>

Well, adding, like, 75 drones to the game certainly slows it down. But the Kzinti amount of drones (no more than 12 on the map at a time, rarely more than 8) really don't slow the game down at all. This Kzinti is one of the strongest TCs out there, so I wouldn't write it off.

-Peter

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Hydran vs Lyran can be quick.

And Lyrans are just smaller Kzintis (think Lynx instead of Tigers)...

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Peter its not the Kzinti is one of the strongest out there, it's your expertise.

Yeah anything that can pump out 4 drones a turn and have up to 8 spd 32 drones is a strong contender. He doesn't have any really "bad" matchups either. Having a scatterpack is just icing on the cake.

It does take a little more bookeeping but drones are one system that gets better as the turns accumilate due to spds decreasing as the game contniues(damage and such).

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:28 pm: Edit

My thought would be starting out with the Shark.

It's kinda dull (plods around and grinds the enemy down), but it's tactics are very straight-forward.

The Orion is a tricky ship to learn, and will give you a TON of bad habits if you start with it. There's a reason it's undergunned, as it is it can do ANYTHING. The trick is, it can't do everything on the same turn, and you'll probably need 2-3 attack passes to win.

The Hydran seems simple, but it really isn't. For starters, you want to be familiar with range 4 passes (much Hydran strategy involves fouling them up). Then you have to think like you have two different ships and be able to change from one to the other mid-turn. The biggest problem with getting back in with the Hydran is

that it will warp your play only a bit less than the Orion. There are plenty of possitions and situations that a Hydran will seek out that will get you killed in something more "normal" (mostly having to do with seeking weapons).

BTW as you get more experience, all the extras don't have half the effect on game length.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:31 pm: Edit

If you want the glass cannon, Hydran and Fed are definitely your best choices. The Hydran is clearly the better ship (though the Fed has the advantage in the direct matchup).

The Shark has about as many drones on map as the Kzinti, most of the time, since most packages have three or four drone racks.

Really though I agree with Peter, play the ship you like. The Kzinti has a lot of drones but doesn't generally adopt strategies designed to drag the game out. And once you get used to it, moving drones isn't really that slow. So its games are actually not particularly long, although it is prone to the occasional very long TURN. For instance, both ships parked at range 1, TAC'ing and launching seven thousand different kinds of objects and tractoring each other, this can take a while. The Kzinti is very strong in this sort of situation, so if you want to fly them, probably should get prepared.

On the other hand, if you fly, say, the Gorn, most of your battles will go quickly, and then once in a while you'll face a TKR and spend 18 turns without anybody scoring any internals. There's a non-fun matchup out there for everybody.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Kerry wrote: >>Peter its not the Kzinti is one of the strongest out there, it's your expertise.>>

Heh--that is kind of you to say, but really, I'd always put the Kzinti in the top 5 (if not top 3) ships in the game. Especially now that the Andro is hosed.

>>Yeah anything that can pump out 4 drones a turn and have up to 8 spd 32 drones is a strong contender. He doesn't have any really "bad" matchups either. Having a scatterpack is just icing on the cake.>>

I dunno--I always put the well flown Klingon in a significantly advantaged position over the Kzinti. And the Firehawk too. But other than that, the Kzinti is pretty even (if not advantaged) across the board.

>>It does take a little more bookeeping but drones are one system that gets better as the turns accumilate due to spds decreasing as the game

contniues(damage and such).>>

That, and in the tournament, all the wacky drones aren't an issue. If you are the Kzinti, you got Type IM (most of them), Type IF (some of them), and Type IVF (three of them). That's it. Yeah, ok, if you really wanted to, you could get extended range drones (which I did one time against a Tholian. It was pretty funny...), but most of the time, not really gonna happen.

-Peter

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 02:40 pm: Edit

IMO the Zin is the best tourney cruiser. The reason not because it has the most wins in the RPS game (it doesn't). If that's what you're loking for then play the ATC or the Orion. The reason the Zin is the best is because it has *zero* "really bad" matchups - where the RPS is 3/7 or worse. It's toughest opponents are, ironically, the other D&D ships - with the Klink at the top of the list. The Firehawk can be a pain. However, these battles are more like 4/6 (disfavor Zin). Even in these battles, careful play and average luck can still net a win. Most of the other TCs have at least one "really bad" game where a win requires obsene luck or some kind of mistake by the opponent (assuming Ace level play).

The other side of the coin is that the Zin has probably the fewest TCs that it dominates. The Zin dominates the Fed (really, really bad - usually 2/10), but it "lays waste" to no other TCs.*

*My defeat at the hands of two Fed captains in a row at last year's Origins doesn't change my mind on that. In the first game the Fed refused to roll above a 3 on both phasers and photons at range 8. In the second game the opponent had well above-average luck and I had *obscenely bad* luck, like hitting with 2 of 14 disrupters - and only when it didn't matter. The Zin is not immune to luck issues - which is the TC's biggest weakeness.

Anyway, I think the Zin isn't the best in the "numbers game" because it doesn't have as many lop-side battles as the other TCs. However, if you bring on a solid game, it will always perform well - as it is forgiving of mild bad luck and of the ocassional mistake, even in Ace level play.

Disclaimer: The author is extremely prejudiced towards the Zin, being one himself.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Ted wrote: >>The reason the Zin is the best is because it has *zero* "really bad" matchups - where the RPS is 3/7 or worse.>>

Yeah, this is pretty true. I generall give the Kzinti a 4/6 vs the Klingon and the TFH. And probably vs the Orion too. But generally speaking, yeah, the Kzinti has few bad match ups and a lot of good ones (although I *still* don't think the Kzinti

is as bad for the Fed as most folks do--I'd give it a 6.5/3.5, myself :-)

When the Andro was viable, the Kzinti was, for my money, one of the worst ships against it (I'd always rate it at 3/7 for the Kzin. If not 2/8 for the pre downgrade Andro). If the Andro was patient, the Kzinti could never hurt it, unless if failled a disdev in a really bad spot. And even if it failled a disdev in a less bad spot, it could come out ok.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Would you place the WBS(Ba) as better or worse against the ZIN than the Klingon?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 07:53 am: Edit

Worse. Not a ton, sure, but I'd rather see a B/a Shark across the table than a Klingon. It doesn't have a SP or fast drones, or the UIM which makes parking much more effective. And really, the ADD helps less against the Kzinti than you'd think, as without the 4th drone rack, the Kzinti is totally happy to run up to the ship at R1 and mug it--the ADD still isn't going to save it from 10 drones on T1, so it is going to have to weasel, at which point the lack of 4th drone rack makes overunning it much less painful.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 08:47 am: Edit

Peter. I've only fought the battle twice, but never had to weasel. I used my T1/2 drones in anti-drone mode and, combined with good maneuver, my ADD has handled things.

It doesn't have the UIM, but is a far better knife fighter than the Klingon.

By Sandy Hemenway (Firemane) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 09:21 am: Edit

For my money, I agree with the general opinion that the Kzinti is a top third ship (among TCs). But the thing to understand is that the biggest factor for picking a NEW TC to play (that generally doesn't get much discussion), is COMPLEXITY.

The droners may 'seem' complex at first blush, but the reality is that the Zinti has one SP, and a very specific set of drones. And he's got enough control rating and firing capacity that 'little' thought needs to be invested in developing tactics. I won in 1988 with a tactical doctrine that could be summed up as:

Launch 10 drones. Launch more drones as they are killed. Follow them around the board until you get a chance to hack & slash the enemy.

The ship is also VERY resistant to damage with 20 weapon hits with single-turn

repairs possible for every last one of them. It's a ship that can save a player from an early gaffe.

In the tourney realm, I'd say the #1 plus to have is seeking weapons. Whether you're dealing with drones, plasma or even Stingers, they influence movement and complicate enemy planning. While seeking weapons won't 'cause' the enemy to make mistakes, they give him 'opportunities' to do so.

The irony is that the most difficult tourney ships to win with are probably the 'simplest' to fly. Selt and Fed have no tertiary systems to complicate things for the enemy. They're 'easy' to fly, hard to win with.

The Tholians and Lyran/LDR are similar, with the ESG and Web giving them a complicating factor, but one that is generally difficult to get optimal usage out of.

The above 6 ships: Fed, Selt, Lyran, LDR, Tholians are the ones I'd least recommend to a newbie, because they are the most likely, IMHO, to lead to frustration.

The Hydran would be next on my 'stay away' from list, because the fighters are VERY complex to get good use out of, and the ship is very susceptible to the small internal volley. It can dance or overrun - but it's a ship that takes a great deal of familiarity with to understand when to do either.

The Orion can be similar to the Fed/Selt if packing pure DF. But the power curve and maneuvering plusses create complications for the enemy that make it better for a novice than many other TCs.

The ships I would recommend to novice players would be:

1) Kzinti 2) Gorn 3) WYN 4) Klink 5) Rom (FH or KR) 7) WAX 8) Hydran 9) Tholians (either) 11) Lyrans (either) 13) Fed 14) Selt

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 09:36 am: Edit

I would recommend either the WYN Shark or the Fed.

Like the Kzinti, the Shark is very forgiving of mistakes and is crazy-durable. The

Fed is simple to fly and even though you will loose many games in it, you always have a chance of hitting a jackpot. If you whiff with the photons, you simply blame the dice ;) It also teaches you how to manuever as you have no seekers or crafty systems to hide behind.

The Lyran is also a good beginner ship to fly for the same reason as the Fed. Sure ESG's are tough to use well, but the idea is simple. I'm in Sandy's boat with the Gorn being the best Plasma ship to start with. That's a no-brainer if I ever saw one. "So let me get this straight - I can basically shoot my opponent no matter where he is in relation to my ship..." Very beefy ship that can be forgiving of mistakes, but it takes a lot more work to make it a consistent winner. Then again, what do I know about flying Gorns?

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 09:50 am: Edit

Pretty much agree with recommendations people have made, with my 1st 2 recommendations to novice players being Wyn Shark and Gorn. I would recommend staying away from the war cruisers until the person becomes familar with MC 1 ships - if you start flying the MC 2/3 ships to begin with, it will give you bad habits.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 10:26 am: Edit

Andy wrote: >>Peter. I've only fought the battle twice, but never had to weasel. I used my T1/2 drones in anti-drone mode and, combined with good maneuver, my ADD has handled things.>>

Well, ok, if it works for you, it works for you. But if I were flying a Kzinti against a Shark, and he was using all of his drone racks for anti drone work and not weaseling the 10 drones on the map from Turn 1? I'd be psyched. And would expect only to lose due to luck (i.e. really good dice for my opponent or really bad dice for me).

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 10:31 am: Edit

Marcus wrote: >>I'm in Sandy's boat with the Gorn being the best Plasma ship to start with. That's a no-brainer if I ever saw one.>>

I dunno, man. It is *really* easy to lose in a plasma ship, and as the Gorn has no backup system, it is even easier to lose. Like, if you are playing against other novices, the Gorn is going to do well, as neither of you really know what is going on. But against people who are reasonably good, plasma defense is a pretty easy game to work out, and anchor defense is pretty easy to work out--it takes a while to realize that often hitting the wall is *good* for you, but once folks realize that, getting that anchor is hard.

It took me a really long time to figure out how to fly the Gorn successfully on a regular basis. And I already had, like, 9 Ace cards in the Kzinti by then...

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:05 am: Edit

Peter. Interesting. The GBS has significantly more R3-4 firepower than you do; you can expect to lose 1, possibly 2 drone racks if you try to close, and the GBS has durability equal to, or better than, the ZINs in every area. Yeah, you have 3 fast heavies, but if they don't win the game for you, what do you have left?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>Peter. Interesting. The GBS has significantly more R3-4 firepower than you do;>>

Not significantly--2 more P1s. Which is something, but not huge.

>> you can expect to lose 1, possibly 2 drone racks if you try to close, and the GBS has durability equal to, or better than, the ZINs in every area.>>

In a game like you propose (using drones and ADD to kill drones, not weasling), I'd expect to arm three overloads, get shot at R4, close to R1 and make a big mess of the Shark. If the Shark used its drones killing my drones, all I have to worry about at R1 are suicides which are generally easy enough to avoid. If it saved enough phasers to shoot down the 3 drones I launch at R1, it didn't shoot me with all its P1s.

I'd never claim that the game is a slam dunk, but I've never seen a Shark that didn't weasel and then won against the Kzinti, ADD or no.

-Peter

By Sandy Hemenway (Firemane) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Long ago, I created a "captain personality" chart based on the concept that certain "styles" of play are more conducive to this or that TC, (though I'm not sure I could find it now, if I tried).

But, it is worth noting that captain's personality has a great deal to do with what TCs one may (or may not) become proficient with.

Some players may have trouble adapting to plasma tactics. Others may be unable to correctly handle the Orion. On an 'individual' basis, it is something of a crapshoot.

Starting from Kzin, the easiest move would be to the Shark, then to the Klink. But moving from drone ship to drone ship may not offer the variance to make the

move 'interesting'.

I'd recommend the Gorn as the 'intro' plasma ship, because it doesn't have the distractions of the other plasma ships. It's like the Hydran in some ways - capable of the single-impulse anchor-O-death -- but also viable in ballet mode. It takes experience to get proficient with plasma, yes. But the same could be said about almost any TC.

While I know many novice players jump into the Fed because of Star Trek, I personally feel it's a poor ship to learn the game in. Playing photon roullette allows for the occasional win, but can easily be taken by the novice as a sign the game is all about luck. The ho-hum arcs and bad turn mode aren't novice-friendly for being competitive, IMO.

In thinking further, I'd probably put the Hydran ahead of the WAX, because SFB is at its heart a game about MOVEMENT, and the WAX has a bunch of features that could confuse the novice.

Ultimately, the best approach is to (as much as possible), try flying as many different TCs as you can to see which ones 'feel' best in your hands.

By David Beeson (Monster) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 01:26 pm: Edit

I wouldn't place the klink that high unles the new player had a stong desire to play it.

It is just way to unforgiving of mistakes.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 02:30 pm: Edit

One advantage/disadvantage is the Kzinti and Klingon for a Newbie is they do not lean on their bats nearly as much as other ships (they don't last long enough).

Generally the batteries are used for overloading the ruptors, tractoring, HETing, or getting burned for reinforcement on the first decent volley. Later on, you have to decide what to do in EA, cause the bats are gone. This makes it easier to fly, but harder to get really good in, a lot of advanced tactics involve covering many things with the bats.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 02:35 pm: Edit

The Klingon doesn't take internals very well, but is relatively forgiving of other types of mistakes. Its good turn mode can make up for maneuver errors. Its rear phasers can make up for mistakes that involve leaving insufficient seeking weapon defense. If you armed your disruptors at the wrong level one turn, that won't cause a problem with next turn's arming.

I've heard it described as a finesse ship, but when you get right down to it, what it does is put out damage, and more damage, and more damage, through lots of

different shield arcs. I think it's OK for a newbie.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 03:12 pm: Edit

I agree with Sandy about the Fed being a lousy ship for a new player to learn in. In most cases, I feel that it will lead to frustration over not being competitive enough.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Peter said:

Quote:

(although I *still* don't think the Kzinti is as bad for the Fed as most folks do--I'd give it a 6.5/3.5, myself :-)

I laugh every time that I see/hear Peter say this. He'll also tell you that he very, very rarely loses that matchup in the Kzinti with his next breath.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 03:18 pm: Edit

I find that it is not uncommon for newer players to fixate and insist on proxing the phots in the tourney FED, all good advice to the contrary. So yeah, FED =

bad.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Brian wrote: >>I laugh every time that I see/hear Peter say this. He'll also tell you that he very, very rarely loses that matchup in the Kzinti with his next breath.>>

Heh. Sure--but it is always closer than one would think :-)

-P

By Michael Ma (Mma) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 01:23 pm: Edit

To scatterpack or not to scatterpack?

I am not terribly fond of the SP concept-wise. It resembles "jackpot" or all the eggs in one-basket strategy.

That plus your opponent has at least 8 impulses to plan an counter, evade, or react accordingly.

I've noticed that in most cases, if you don't launch the SP immediately, it very

very rarely comes out later in the game. Unless a long-range ballet is going on.

So that being said, is there a late-game strategy for the SP? Other than unloading and using for reloads? Other than phaser-bait or herding, what else do you folks use 'em for?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Michael, an UNDEPLOYED scatter pack is a hanging threat that your opponent has to worry about all the time. So he has to hold some back from his alpha, has to consider holding a weasel...

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 04:01 pm: Edit

I agree with Grafton. The threat of the SP is a huge deterrent. If your opponent is slow and blows his wad early in the turn, the SP will likely result in his death.

I have successfully used SP in late-game before. But, you are right - it's usually used in opening stages.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Michael wrote: >>To scatterpack or not to scatterpack? >>

Depends on the situation.

>>I am not terribly fond of the SP concept-wise. It resembles "jackpot" or all the eggs in one-basket strategy.>>

Yeah, it kinda is. But you play it accordingly.

>>I've noticed that in most cases, if you don't launch the SP immediately, it very very rarely comes out later in the game. Unless a long-range ballet is going on.>>

A lot of match ups, launching the SP early is a good plan (I'm assuming you are the Kzinti, here), if for no other reason that you want your opponent to either:

A) Stop and weasel.

or

B) Not stop and weasel and lose the game as a result.

As it is always a good idea to give your opponent the opportunity to forget to not lose the game ("I'm a Hydran! I can shoot down all the drones!"), launching it early, expecting them to weasel, and then being plesantly surprised when they don't is often the basis of good Kzinti strategy.

>>So that being said, is there a late-game strategy for the SP? Other than unloading and using for reloads? Other than phaser-bait or herding, what else do you folks use 'em for?>>

Oh, sure. Holding the SP till late is often a great plan. Some folks like holding it till they are chasing their opponent into a corner after the first exchange. Some like holding it till their opponent looks weak. Late game SP deployment is regularly useful.

Again, assuming the Kzinti here:

A) Launching the SP early and getting 10 drones on the map is great against the Fed, Hydran, Lyran, Shark, Tholians (to distract the WC) and some of the other cruddier DF ships.

B) Launching the SP as a counter SP against the Klingon is often gold (i.e. hold your SP till he launched his SP, and then launch your SP to take out his SP).

C) Holding the SP till mid-late game is usually the good plan vs Big Plasma ships. Against the Romulans, unloading a couple drones for reloads and then launching the 4 drone SP to encourage your opponent to cloak is often a reasonable plan.

-Peter

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 05:01 pm: Edit

The SP gives the Klingon and Kzinti one shot to "break" their limits in drone-paunching.

In the case of the Klingon, it lets it get enough drones in flight to create an obstacle it can hide (or retreat) behind. Thing Lingon is a low-crunch ship and wants to hang out at long end of Overload range, the SP makes it hard for higher crunch ships to get in close and blow its doors off. Or for Plasma to anchor it (the Klingon tends to use the SP early against plasma more than the Kzinti.

For the Kzinit, the SP lets it use the 12 control slots effectively. While the Klingon usually uses the SP to keep the range open, the Kzinti uses it to close in (either by absorbing fire or drawing a weasel). The Kzinti may or may not use the SP against BP, oppinions are split. I know of one Kzinti Ace who liked to use the SP to get Roms to cloak out. Others like to hold it to make uncloaking hazardous.

One use for the Klingon SP is getting your "good" drones into play in useful numbers. Against the Fed I like to put all 4 fast drones in the pack and engage about 4 hexes behind. He's got 8 labs the, type IVs aren't going to fool him anyway. Obviously, this is a plot for charging, shooting at 3-4 on the oblique and trying to shoot again early next turn. I've also made 2 of 6 type IF (planning to get 8 drones into play on one turn). The Kzinti, in my experience, always uses a

generic 6 type I drones in the pack.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 12:35 am: Edit

Quote:

B) Launching the SP as a counter SP against the Klingon is often gold

I would expect that if the Kzinti tried this, neither player would launch the SP, as it would be much more common for the Klingon to be reserving his SP for an anti-drone role.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 06:41 am: Edit

The Klingon needs to be careful because some ships, like the Hydran, can run through their SP drones and maul them (6 in the air < 10 in the air).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 10:26 am: Edit

Andy wrote: >>I would expect that if the Kzinti tried this, neither player would launch the SP, as it would be much more common for the Klingon to be reserving his SP for an anti-drone role.>>

That is often what happens, which works out well for the Kzinti--the Klingon SP tends to soak up a lot of resources from the Kzinti when the Kzinti is agressively pursuing him, and if both SPs sit in the bay for most of the game, the Kzinti's is *much* more likely to survive (the Klingon loses its shuttle bay very quickly compared to the Kzinti), so late game, the Klingon is out of a shuttle bay and the Kzinti launches the SP.

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 10:43 am: Edit

I've never really been a fan of using the SP as an anti-drone weapon in the Klingon. That's what I've got that ADD for.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 09:54 am: Edit

Everybody likens the WYN AUX to a pig, but right now I'm seeing it as a bloated flying turkey. Who's with me on this?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 09:57 am: Edit

I'm with you.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 11:36 am: Edit

I'm thinking more like UPS truck, with some dangerous packages.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 11:53 am: Edit

Over in the SFBOL tournament thread, Marcus wrote: >>@Krotar, your packages where FFG11 and FFHBB. What are your thoughts on using the FFHBB on plasma? Post it in the Tourney Tactics thread. I'm just curious because I never even thought of using it against plasma.>>

I'm not Ken, but of his two packages, I think the FFHbb is better than the FFg11 against Big Plasma, but I don't think either of them are great against BP. When the Orion won Origins, Paul (and Norm) were both using FFg11 as the primary package and HgH(bb?) as the backup package, and I think one of the main uses of the backup package was against Big Plasma. I think the F torps aren't great against plasma as to get in close, you need to run through plasma, and if you launch the plasma Fs from, like, 5 hexes, your plasma opponent can usually run away from them doing significant damage. With the Hellbore in there, at least you can do some solid DF (at R5, 2 bolts, 4xP1 and an OL HB can knock down a sheild and do some internals), but then you are using the F torps as bolts, and you could just as well be using HBs or Photons or something. That, and if you are using FFH, you don't have a gatling, and the gatling is usually the Orion's best pal--at R2 it is a OL Photon for 1 power every turn that can't miss and late in the game when both ships are crippled, it totally mangles your opponent, as you still have a gatling and they don't.

I think the HgH package (the bb side mounts are, for my money, much more effective than the 11 or the 1b against BP) totally dominates BP (or at least the Gorn) where a package with a couple F torps is generally going to be fighting uphill.

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Actually, I think Paul and Norm were flying FFg1f as the primary package.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Oh, yeah, you are correct. They had the extra fusion beam in there.

-P

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 05:13 pm: Edit

The logic on FFHBB is that two F torps will make someone turn off; two drones generally won't. Once they turn off, fire phasers at a rear shield for the hellbore, and play the hellbore attrition game.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Ken wrote:

>>The logic on FFHBB is that two F torps will make someone turn off; two drones generally won't. Once they turn off, fire phasers at a rear shield for the hellbore, and play the hellbore attrition game.>>

Well, yes. But that doesn't work so well against Big Plasma was my point--the F torps are just going to be running up hill against envelopers and fast plasma ships and if you want to try and get in close to make the F torps hit, you end up running through and possibly into close range bigger plasma.

I think the FHFbb (or whatever) is a perfectly reasonable package in a lot of situations, but against BP, you are generally going to want to fall back on the HgHbb (or whatever particular variation). Which is, I suspect, why most folks have the HgH package as one of the two in a given tournament. In the situation that brought this up (my Gorn fighting Krotar's Orion), Ken was in a pickle, as both of his packages were FxF packages (FgF11? and FHFbb), as he was trying out something wacky. Which is reasonable for experimentation purposes, but when you end up against a BP ship, the lack of the HgH (or something similar) package is likely disadvantageous.

-Peter

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Peter, what Ken was finding with HHgBB is that he'd get one pass off against the BP ship, and then get herded into the corner.

The thing about FFHBB is that it's got a low power demand curve while reloading, and can actually cloak without doubling (though it's tight.)

I don't know how well it works in practice, but I can think of ways it might work on paper. I'm not saying it's better than HHgBB. I am saying it might be viable against big plasma.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 07:38 am: Edit

I've never tried the FFhbb, but my initial gut reaction is that it might not be terrible against BP. It's a fairly low power package, so I think it will be ok with dancing around a bit waiting for a hitch in the plasma cycle. I'll bet it cloaks like a champ too. It's probably not gonna run you over like the hhgbb liked to do, but 40 plasma followed by phasers, with a hb chaser would really leave a mark on someone that got too friendly. All this while sporting a decent brick.

By Jeff McKelvey (Shyhawk) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:23 am: Edit

Having flown a lot of BP vs. the orion I have come to understand a few things on the fight.

1. It hurts to be BP vs most any package.

2. It hurts more with ANY low power package.

3. The more Hellbores I see the better I feel (feeling better is just being scared to dead rather than being in full blown panic).

The trouble I have found is that BP can not keep the Orion from over running. By launching over time, you find the Orion at range zero some where in late turn four or in turn five with you having empty tubes. The other option is to play like a bad direct fire ship if you can find his brick.

With the low power packages, the Orion is almost a mint ship and enough power to brick out your phasers and still win the tractor fight. All of this and still enough Firepower to gut you. Remember those two B-racks. They are not to control movement in this package. They are 48 internals for zero power after the first set of 30ish in.

This is not to say I will not fight hard. But I have two goals vs. a low power Orion.

a. Get to turn Six! b. Do not blow up on a two impluse orion pass!!

If I get one I personal count it a as draw, even if it would not get me to the next bracket. If I get both, I count it as a personal marginal victory. Either that or I was fighting a Orion Captain who is still learning to fly his ship.

As to the Hellbore packages, the above holds true for the most part. The difference is that BP can track power a little better know where six to twelve power are going. Where I feel better when seeing the Hellbore packages, is that on the overrun he has the same damage output but twelve less power. My job is to find a way to use that to my advantage. This puts us about even on power less his 2/3 movement. Still scary, but I am not down twelve power on the battle pass.

Of course these are my personal thoughts, others may disagree.

Shyhawk

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:48 am: Edit

Ken B said - "and play the hellbore attrition game."

The thing is that the hellbore attrition game should really be played with a 2 hellbore package. Because hellbores do miss from time to time. I have a theory concerning Orion packages and it goes like this: If you are going to feature a weapon in the option set, use 2 (or more if possible) of that weapon. In my mind, the feature weapons of the FFHBB are the F torps, not the hellbore. Sure the

hellbore is important, but it's more complimentary to the F torps and phasers.

The Litterbug (my pet name for the FFHBB) was intended to deal with DF ships and the D&D crowd. I Use a HHG1B package for Plasma and Tholians for reasons Peter already pointed out. It can dance well and overrun almost as well (the HHGBB overruns better). I also agree with Peter that Krotor's package sets where lacking against the plasma crowd, but I was wondering if Ken hit on something I didn't see because he's a good player.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Ken probably felt as many of the orions do that any package agains a plasma user works as the orions speed and manueverability can overcome the plasma users weaponry.

The problem is that any package that allows the opponent to stretch the game against an orion is usually a losing one.

I used to love taking the old 1,g,Hell,1,1 package using the hellbore as an initial mizia weapon and then not reloading it as the turn after I am just coming into R0 after the phasers cycle for a coup de gras.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 01:20 pm: Edit

I think the Orion should take HHHHH as its weapon suite. Why let a little thing like the rules stand in the way??? ;)

I've been considering a weird one: PPD/H/B/B to take against BP. Is this one against the tourney rules?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 01:30 pm: Edit

I'm pretty sure that you specifically can't have HB and PPD on the same ship in the tournament.

-P

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Sorry Ted, but it is. IT specifically says in T2000 (and previous tournament releases before it) that Hellobres and PPDs cannot be placed on the same ship. Silly rules...

I wouldn't mind a 5 plasma F torp TBR myself ;)

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 01:50 pm: Edit

/me snaps fingers!

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Ted,

I messed around with a PPD,FBB package a while back, with the intention of using it against BP. I'm pretty sure I won both games I flew it. Neither were against a top player though, so it's hard to say how it really stacks up. I've been meaning to mess with it again, in my next Orion phase.

Brian

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Brian,

PPD,gBB might be interesting against BP. The g is always useful against either plasma or the ship. I could see where you wnat the F torp, but g might be more useful. Thoughts?

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 08:33 pm: Edit

I think that you need something that will deter the BP from just running you over. By the time the gat is useful, you are probably too close. I suspect that one of 2 things will always happen.

1) BP will launch an EPT and turn off to play the cocaine clock game. Here you ppd them and run out the plasma. This is the game the PPDFbb is designed for.

2) BP doesn't launch anything and just keeps coming. I think you want to fire the ppd such that it will be done at r5. This is when your F torp needs to hit as well, followed by phasers. Then HET out of dodge and run. Leave a couple of drones behind for them to deal with. If you survive turn 2, and gain a little seperation you will likely have the upper hand.

I saw both of these when I tried it, and found the 2nd scenario to be a bit hairy. That game ended up not being close though, when I escaped. If I was flying the BP, I'd be tempted to try the 2nd scenario as well. This is the main reason I think the F torp is important. I also considered a 3rd drone rack, but felt it really wasn't enough of a deterent.

I don't really think this is a good package, but it was an interesting change of pace.

Brian

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 03:17 pm: Edit

After getting totally maulified by Ken Lin's Tholian ATC, I'm wondering what a WYN AUX is supposed to do against that thing. It didn't help my case that I had F torps up front.

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 04:23 pm: Edit

====

"What do we do?" " We die...."

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Yeah, I dunno, Marcus. I think the ATC/WAX match up is probably one of the worst in the game (making up for the WAX/Fed?) regardless of the mounts on the WAX. That the WAX can't HET and can't accelerate if it needs to decel means that the Web Caster is often just instant death, and the rest of the time, it makes the WAX maneuver in ways that the Tholian wants it to. And the WAX just can't maneuver.

-P

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 04:56 pm: Edit

I have found two things that are helpful.

#1 is somewhat of a dupe it works once. Go spd 11 all the time with reinforcement and try not to turn in his FA unless you are close. If he goes to web you hopefully Batt speedchange through it.

Yeah thats not very helpful, but it worked for me once.

#2 is go SPD 31 all the time. You may get stuck in a web but it won't be a str 12 one. Of course the web will definitely affect your manuevering but the wyn always has that.

oh yeah #3 have Hell, Hell, Disr, dr b as your options.

#4 nnote the ATC most likely will be shooting for your #1 shield reinforcement there is helpful.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Going speed 11 with a brick is "not engageing".

I don't agree, but that has been called non-engagement.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Unless both players are going the same speed and flying at each other, one of them is guilty of "not engaging" more than the other.

Where the line is between that and "non agression" is different in everyone's mind.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 02:42 pm: Edit

I don't think it's non-engagement in this case. IN my mind, non-engagement

while moving means you're either constantly retrograding or using speed plots that would permit you to weasel (4 all turn, 9/4, etc...) for several turns. Speed 11 is mid-slow and there's no way to weasel without EDing in at that speed. And since it's a crap match-up, I don't see a problem with it. Drastic measures, I say!

One thing I will say about the game between Ken and I is that I feel I messed up my drone launching in the 1st turn. I should have launched them 2-3 impulses sooner so he would have had to deal with them before getting that range 5 shot on my rears. It also would have helped if I would have followed my gut instinct and launched both real F torps instead of 1 real and 1 fake. So it wasn't all luck or the RPS that determined the game. I could have done a bit better.

One thing I think is wise on is that if he creates a W shaped web, I turn off. While he can get behind me, I can at least make is so that he'll have to deal with a bunch of toys if he wants to get better than a range 6-8 shot on my rears that turn. In this particular game I had 14 in general . If I could have launched better, his fire may have been from range 6-8 instead of range 5. That first pass is what killed me in the long run.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Larry wrote: >>Going speed 11 with a brick is "not engageing".>>

I suspect you are being over analytical here. Someone moving at speed 11, assuming they are moving towards their opponent and firing weapons, is just someone moving speed 11.

-P

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 03:58 pm: Edit

In my current RAT game, Jeremy has gone retrograde for a turn and a half. I went 0, then retrograded myself at the same time - and cloaked.

However, IMO neither of us is guilty of "non engagement" as we're both trying to put the hurt on the other while trying to avoid damage (and not impale ourselves on the other's plasma).

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 04:16 pm: Edit

I think the Steelers and Dolphins where both being non-aggressive last week.

By Andrew J. Koch (Andyk) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 05:05 pm: Edit

That was two weeks ago Marcus. And we'll see how non-aggressive the Steelers are this week! But of course this is a discussion for another thread...

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 05:35 pm: Edit

I don't see what I'm doing as non-agressive at all. I'm attacking in reverse! I went backwards because it was better lead with my intact #4 than my busted #1.

Gorns are practically built for it.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Here! Here!

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Maybe the Gorn should have LS/RS S-torps, and 27-point shields all around. Then it could truly swing both ways.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 09:50 am: Edit

Here's a discussion I have not seen here: LDR vs Orion.

Seems to me that it's a spectacular match up with both ships being so speedy and manueverable. I've only played it a couple times as the Orion and it's a bit of a head scratcher for various reasons.

1 - Hellbore packages have a really tough time doing anything to it. Unlike the big kitty, Junior has an easier time circumnavigating my drones and maintaining the ESGs as a ram threat or hellbore sponge. IF my drones and hellbores are mitigated by ESGs and gats, I don't like pitting my phasers against his phasers and disruptors.

2 - F torp packages have a tough time against them because the LDR is zippy and has gats.

3 - Direct fire packages are tough because most of them require the Orion to get close to do respectable damage and the LDR can whop you hard in close.

Any thoughts on this match up from the peanut gallery?

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 09:57 am: Edit

I think this is one of the worst matchups for the LDR. Unless the Orion screws up, a HB armed Orion should win easily.

By Jeff McKelvey (Shyhawk) on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 11:49 am: Edit

The LDR gets one pass, he has to gut the pirate. The power curve after the first pass is scary for the LDR and here comes the the Orion all glowing with a smile.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 08:25 am: Edit

I think a perfectly flown Orion will consistently win over the LDR. The difficulty of this matchup, is that the LDR can seriously punish any mistakes. One of my favorite things about the Orion, is that I can occasionally be a little sloppy and get away with it. Probably not in this matchup though.