sk b2 commission meeting 7-8-03 fdr- email and minutes w notes 234

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:27:32 -0400From: " " 4P

To: "Gorelick, Jamie" 4r'Cc: "Philip Zelikow \\(E-mail\\)" 4!f, "Daniel Marcus \\(E-mail\\)" 4|,"" 4l

Subject: Re: meeting notesJamie -- We will certainly incorporate your changes in full. Also, you stateLee's position accurately; I will clarify the misimpression created.Quoting "Gorelick, Jamie" :

> Chris -> To save time tomorrow, here are suggested changes in the meeting notes

1. third paragraph under "note taking", first sentence should read:i f "Commissioner Gorelick asked whether the Judge's statement on notetaking was*> essentially an assertion of Executive Privilege, as that would be the only

> possible basis for a restriction, because the Commission is fully compliant>ywith all security rules."'> P. 2, second paragraph under Document Access, sentence beginning, "The Vice> Chair..." should read, " . .Ben-Veniste concurred, that there be a> subommittee. . . "

? > P. 2: next paragraph suggests, I think inaccurately, that the Vice Chair> agreed to minders. We should confirm with Lee that this is not so and edit> so that it does not reflect acquiescence.>> P. 3, first paragraph under Reviewing the Commission Draft, the last sentence> similarly suggests that it was agreed that we would vet the report with the> White House. I did not only raise the point of appearances but of substance,> so it is not just an issue of explaining why we vetted but deciding whether> we should. I said that the Lockerbie Commission did not feel it appropriate> for an independent commission (this one wholly appointed by the Executive> Branch, so not even as independent as we) to share its draft in advance.

>P. 4, first full paragraph, second line. I stated that I want a hearing with"both Homeland Security Secretary Ridge and General Eberhardt (check spelling> please) of Northern Command on the topic . .. . "

4, under Commissioner Contacts, please change the reference to MuellerVisiting all over town to Mueller visiting "all Commissioners to express hisviews on MIS . "

5, under Team #2, 8th line should read, "problems are; she offered to goo Tenet> P. 6, first full paragraph, four line, should read "problem getting documents

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> or information, it is not getting addressed in a timely fashion."; and the> sentence in the middle of the paragraph should read " Both Commissioners> Ben-Veniste and Gorelick said that issues need to be elevated sooner so that> they....">>> Sorry for the long list. If I didn't talk so much, there'd be fewer edits to> offer!>> Jamie

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A T T A C K S U P O N T H E U N I T E D S T A T E S

Minutes of the July 8, 2003 MeetingThe Chair calted'the Commission to order at 10:05 AM on July 8, 2003. Chairman Kean,Vice Chair/Ffamilton, an d Commissioners Ben-Veniste, Fielding, Gorelick, Gorton,LehmanfRoemer, ancLThompson were present.Minutes. The minutes of the June 26, 2003 meeting were agreed to, after the incorporationof 3 minor changes.Meeting with Judge Gonzales. The Chair asked the Vice Chair to report toCommissioners on the meeting they had just concluded with Judge Gonzales. The ViceChair stated his notes represented his best understanding of the Judge's comments, and heobserved that the issues raised by Gonzales were ongoing. Outcomes were not final,subject to change through staff discussions an d future talks with Gonzales.Note-taking. The Vice Chair stated that Judge Gonzales believes he is offeringunprecedented access to White House documents, and therefore believes note-takingcontrols are appropriate. The Judge spoke of two options: (1) the White House couldreview all notes before releasing them to the secure control of the Commission; or (2) theWhite House could keep all notes on its premises. The Judge stated that his preference isthe second option, as he is not comfortable reviewing the notes of Commissioners.Commissioners Gorelick, Roemer, and Fielding all asked how the Commission can writeits report without access to notes. Commissioner Ben-Veniste stated that the notion of theWhite House reviewing notes, or keeping those notes on its premises, was offensive to theidea of an independent Commission. He stated the more material the Commission gets, themore it needs to work with the material, andhave access to its notes. He agreed with theExecutive Director that notes should be classified at the highest possible level, and then betransmitted consistent with security guidelines to Commission control. CommissionersGorton an d Roemer agreed with Commissioner Ben-Veniste on the importance ofcontrolling notes, although Commissioner Roemer advised against the use of the highestpossible classifications, because such a practice would hinder internal conversations anduse of the material.Commissioner Gorelick asked whether the Judge's statement on note-taking was essentiallyan assertion of Executive Privilege, as that would be the only possible basis for arestriction, because the Commission is fully compliant with al l security rules. The ViceChair replied that the Judge had not stated any assertion of Executive privilege. BothCommissioners Ben-Veniste an d Commissioner Roemer stated their support for a letter tothe White House on note-taking, signed by 10 Commissioners. The Vice Chair said that heand the Chair certainly would report back to Gonzales on the strong views of theCommission, an d visit with him again.

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FOR OFFICIALUSE ONLYCOMMISSION SENSITIVEwitness, right or wrong, represented an important voice in the debate and needed to beheard. The Chair observed that he thought the Commission has some very good witnesseslined up. The Executive Director observed that the hearing would seek to frame a clearmessage about what the Commission has learned from the witnesses.Commissioners Lehman and Gorelick stated that the Commissioner would need to spend atleast a half-day on Saudi Arabia. Commissioner Gorelick stated that she would like ahearing with both Homeland Security Secretary Ridge and General Eberhart of NorthernCommand on the topic of "who is defending us?" Commissioner Ben-Veniste reiteratedcomments that he noted he had made previously, that the Commission needs to workbackwards from May: what does it want to accomplish? hi his view, the Commission isgoing to need 3 days of hearings on the tick-tock of 9-11, and at least a day or two ondomestic intelligence and FBI issues, and a schedule of upcoming meetings. He askedwhether Commissioners can have an expectation that there will be a hearing schedule. TheChair answered in the affirmative.Commissioner Contacts. The Chair raised the issue of individual Commissionerscontacting agencies. The Vice Chair noted that Judge Gonzales said it would be veryhelpful if contacts are made in the name of the Commission, rather than by Commissionersas individuals. Commissioner Gorelick thought that the point was well taken with respectto fact witnesses, and that it was different with policy witnesses: for example, DirectorMueller visiting all Commissioners to express his views on MI-5. Commissioner Roemerthought it would be very useful to have a key person such as Dick Clarke come in andspeak with a large group of Commissioners. Commissioner Fielding agreed, but not in thecontext of individual Commissioners making such contacts. The Executive Directorobserved that Clarke is a key fact witness; Commissioner Roemer observed that Clarke hasalready agreed to appear as many times as necessary before the Commission, and that heshould be invited as many times as is needed.Team Leader Reports. The Commission heard reports from each of the Team Leaders.Team #1: Team Leader MacEachin spoke positively about the cooperation Team 1 hasreceived from the DCI's Review Group on 9/11, and noted that it had received all thematerial it had requested. Most material came from the CIA, but some from the FBI aswell. Team 1 also has access to a 4-foot stack of documents of detainee interviews. It hasgotten a good response to its question: "how do you evaluate former events in light of whatwe know now?" It has also had the ability to submit questions that interrogators then posedto detainees. The problem for Team 1 is not documents to study, bu t time to read thedocuments.Team #1A: Team Leader Snell echoed MacEachin's remarks. He noted that he is eager tofill the last professional slot on the Team, and that his team doesn't have the luxury ofwaiting because of the enormity of the document review task awaiting it. Snell noted thatthe FBI has had an epiphany in the last two weeks, and is starting to improve on documentproduction. He said that the FBI has a very detailed timeline, and that his team needs

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FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLYCOMMISSION SENSITIVEaccess to it. Simply acquiring the timeline instead of trying to "reverse engineer" itscreation from FBI documents would save a great deal of time. Commissioner Ben-Venisteasked about access to material from foreign trials. He noted that translations from trials inGermany were available from a law firm representing plaintiffs in a 9/11 suit. Snellexpressed keen interest, as did the Deputy General Counsel, and both noted the importanceof establishing a clear one-way street of document provision to the Commission, with noprovision of information from the Commission to litigants. Snell expressed confidencethat other teams will be providing information to his team, but noted that he does not haveenough experience yet to speak to this issue definitively.Team #2: Team Leader Scheid noted that he has been impeded somewhat by the slownessof the clearance process. Staffers Gordon Lederman and Lloyd Salvetti have beenimmersing themselves in the Joint Inquiry files. He noted that recently his Team has had abetter response from the CIA; the wheels started turning as soon as the Commission begandiscussing a progress report on compliance with document requests. Team 2 is looking atthe CIA's inner workings rather than finished intelligence, and this has been more difficultfor the CIA to provide. Commissioner Gorelick said that she would like to know where theproblems are; she offered to go to Tenet. Commissioner Ben-Veniste added that if theprocess needed to be short-circuited through individual contacts, he thought Commissionersshould do so. Scheid thought the process now was back on track.Team #3: Team Leader Hurley spoke to the 5 major document requests that Team 3 hasissued in the past week, plus the Executive Office of the President request. He noted it wastoo soon in his Team's case to make a judgment about cooperation/non-cooperation. Henoted that the Team plans to conduct some 10-15 interviews in July, and the same numberin August, and has been busy framing questions for those interviews, hi response to aquestion, staff noted that the Commission's intranet site was now up and available.Team #4: Team Leader John Roth noted that Treasury has been fairly responsive so far,and has provided 10,000 pages. State turned over material before the due date. The FBI ismoving slowly. The Team knows that the FBI documents are readily producible; they havebeen hung up because of the Moussaoui question. The Team has held 4 interviews; 60more are scheduled.Team #5: Team Leader Swope said that briefings with DHS were taking far too long to setup, sometimes several weeks. Team 5 will be leading a trip to Kennedy Airport on July28 to look in detail at the border inspection process. Briefings with the CIA were alsotaking too long to set up. Team 5 will be working closely with Teams 1,1A and 3. Herjudgment is that the team can still get the job done, if it has cooperation. She alsomentioned the complications of staff divided in two facilities, at two levels ofclassification. Commissioner Gorelick asked about IG investigations; Swope noted that theState OIG had interviewed all the officers who had issued visas to the hijackers. She statedthat the team had done 4 interviews sofar.

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FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLYCOMMISSION SENSITIVETeam #6 : Mike Jacobson, acting for Team Leader Grewe, reported on the documentrequests submitted to the FBI on June 4th, plus supplementary requests submitted later. Hereported that FBI had provided some documents: budgetary books, Attorney Generalguidelines, indices from operational and administrative manuals. But the FBI has beenslow getting started, and the team is concerned about delays in document production.Briefings on FBI and CIA reforms have taken place; a briefing on the Terrorist ThreatIntegration Center and many additional briefings have been scheduled. CommissionerBen-Veniste asked if the team had enough staffing. Jacobson answered that the team willsoon be interviewing another candidate; Commissioner Ben-Veniste offered to help.Commissioner Gorelick asked if there had been interviews of former FBI officials, so as tohelp narrow and focus the Commission's requests. Jacobson noted that many formerofficials indeed are on the interview list. She also asked as to why, when Team 6 has aproblem getting documents or information, it is not getting addressed in a timely fashion.Jacobson answered that FBI has a lot that is ready to roll, but it has been held up because ofMoussaoui. He noted that the Moussaoui exclusion seems to be broader than it was at thetime of the Joint Inquiry. Both Commissioners Ben-Veniste and Gorelick said that issuesneed to be elevated sooner so that they can be addressed sooner. Commissioner Roemeradded that the Commission will need feedback from the team as to how the newarrangement with Dan Levin and his 4 deputies works. Jacobson noted that the ability ofTeam 6 to carry out its work plan depends on the timely receipt of information from theFBI. He added that the team will do a very thorough review of 5 FBI Field Offices, andsome level of investigation at 5 other proposed field offices.Team #7: Team Leader Brinkley spoke to what the team has been doing since its May 22-23 hearing. The team wants to write a document on what the aviation security systemlooked like on 9/10; the team believes it can complete this draft by the end of July andmove on to its next set of questions. He noted that TS A has been very responsive todocument requests, providing 30 binders of documents; FBI material has been coming outin bits and pieces. The team will seek to interview 33 people to find out what the systemwas like, both from the standpoint of operation centers and airport security, includingcheckpoints. The team will also be following up with the Department of Transportationand FAA on document requests and follow-up from the hearing. Commissioner Roemerasked on follow-up with Secretary Mineta; Brinkley answered that there will be a follow-upsession with Mineta, with questions carefully prepared for the session.Team #8 : Dana Hyde briefed on the slowness of FAA, NORAD and the DefenseDepartment in document production. The team is also seeking policy documents on theorientation of the Office of the Secretary of Defense on homeland security prior to 9/11.Commissioner Gorelick expressed her strong interest in looking at why we have aDepartment of Defense that doesn't defend us. She wants to look at the structure ofNorthern Command, plus discussion going back 2 decades on the question of the DOD'srole in what we now call homeland defense. Team 8 has submitted two document requeststo FAA, seeking al l documents, tapes, transcripts and logs. Right after 9/11, FA A pulledtogether all kinds of information that went, first, to the NTSB and then the FBI. The

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FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLYCOMM ISSION SEN SITIVECommission needs to get that information. The Secret Service has provided informationon the White House Security Review (post-1994) and it also has a timeline of the day of9/11 that is very helpful. Secret Service and National Military Comm and Center briefingsare scheduled.Team #9: John Azzarello briefed in the absence of Team Leader Farmer. He noted thatthe 3 major questions for the team relate to the (1) buildings; (2 ) evacuation p lans an dperformance; and (3) consequence management. He stated that a request for informationfrom the Pentagon Historical Project (scores of interviews of those present at the Pentagonon 9/11) had been sent to the Defense D epartment on M ay 20 th, with no response yet, andno satisfactory response to Com missioner Gorelick's qu estion as to why the delay.Commissioners also asked why the front office hadn't moved yet on document requests firstsubmitted on June 16 th. Com missioner Roemer urged movem ent. Azzarello noted that theteam and the G eneral C ounsel had met w ith the Port Au thority on the scope and breadth ofthe Com mission's document request. On e key question for the Port Authority is w hetherComm issioners and staff wo uld be called as expert witnesses in pending litigation.Azzarello stated that if the team gets imm ediate compliance from N ew Y ork C ity and thePort Authority, it can do the mission. Nothing has come back yet on an FBI briefingrequest; Commissioner Gorelick urged the staff to follow up right away. Azzarello notedthat the team also intends to pursue unofficial sources, through contacts in the police andfire departments, and conversations with retired police and fire personnel and personnel inadjoining jurisdictions. Azzarello noted that it was the team's intent to prepare 3 -5 pageWhite Papers addressing key questions.

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sk b2 commission meeting 7-8-03 fdr- email and minutes w notes 234

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