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Cal-look/High Performance => Pure racing => Topic started by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM

Title: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM

Inspired by the old school cal look engine thread and after seeing the Kris Klingaman thread I felt like starting a own mouse engine discussion. OK, Iasked in the other thread if it is possible to reach the 100hp/l limit without having to spend a fortune and I have received info that this is impossible toreach - especially if you want a true street engine.

IS IT?

It`s quite obvious that Kris Klingaman`s engine was a pure race engine with a compression of 14.5:1 but what else did he do so correct to manage topush a close to stock weight car into the 11`s with a 1750ccm engine? This is just as fast and even faster than most 2,3`s out there today.

WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY?

With the WWW, info available everywhere and plenty of shops offering high power stuff we should be going faster, agree? Or has all the info/partsavailable made us loose the ability to "think out of the box". Or is not "thinking out of the box" the answer? Maybe we`re heading in the wrongdirection and is building engines that is not as close to their full potential compared to what they built "back then?"

And what makes a engine old school? Bolting on period correct parts? For me a truly old school engine is a engine that has been built the way they didit back then. When know how was important, the parts where hard to come by and creativity was necessary to be a little bit faster than yourcompetitor.

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: LGK on November 27, 2007, 12:44:31 PM

WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY?[/

What tells you this statement is true and proven?

Watch out for 2008...even before we had 1776cc engines reving to the moon and making at least 180hp AND being reliable ...

I'm sure there will be some other guys chime in on this...

"thinking out of the box" the answer is INDEED the key to succes ::)

Regards Steve

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Fastbrit on November 27, 2007, 12:52:04 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM


Two words: grenade motors! Talking with many of the 'old guys' (like I'm young... ::)), we tend to forget that many of the fast mouse-motored carshad engines which lived on (and frequently exceeded) the limit. Catastrophic engine failures were not uncommon.

Don't underestimate the fact that there are far more 11-second true street cars around today than ever before because engine technology has movedon and parts are so readily available. Yes, we could go even faster by building engines that are on the edge all the time, but who wants to besweeping up parts and rebuilding broken motors every weekend?

One big reason the old motors did produce a lot of horsepower for their size was down to superior head work. When you didn't have a range ifaftermarket heads to choose from, there was no option but to extract the maximum from factory 311 castings. Head porters like Fumio Fukaya andDean Lowry were capable of such work and today there are others, but few people choose to go down that route any more. Why? It's too easy (andfar cheaper) to buy some off the shelf heads from someone like CB that will make good hp. I bet if you paid someone like Fumio (or Jeff Denham) theFULL rate (and don't underestimate the number of hours it takes to do a good job) for doing a set of dynamite 311 heads, you'd be amazed at howmuch you'd get out of a small motor.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 13:25:33 PM

Hi Steve,

What tells you this statement is true and proven?

It was meant as a question but that said I have still not heard or read about a small engine going into the 11`s like Klingaman. Looking at certain listsand our All Time Top Racers list I notice that the smallest engine is Ole Endlers 2110ccm with a 11.5 ET.

It`s indeed interesting to read about the 1776ccm making at least 180hp. This is exactly what I want to discuss in this thread - what has been doneSO correct with this engine to make it both powerful and reliable? Questions to you, is it a street engine with cooling and running on pump gas?

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on November 27, 2007, 13:45:12 PM

Quote from: Fastbrit on November 27, 2007, 12:52:04 PM

[grenade motors! Catastrophic engine failures were not uncommon.

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,3257.msg43246.html#msg43246




I'm quite sure we can buy parts today that would have blown the Old Guys brains out when it comes to what RPMs they can withstand, Today we canhave lighter pistons with lesser drag, stronger and lighter con-rods and so on and the valve train can be lightened like never before. The only thing Ican see being the problem with such a engine today is the KNOWHOW, it's hard to come by.. and its the most important ingredients. ;)


Don't underestimate the fact that there are far more 11-second true street cars around today than ever before because engine technology has moved on and parts are so readilyavailable.

This is absolutely true... (I guess, I wasn't around :)) But the litre effect is way down, not to many engines putting out significantly more than 100horse pr liter. If Klingaman stretched his mouse to 8000 (I don't know), he is in the same rpm segment as many other street/strip racers...


It's too easy (and far cheaper) to buy some off the shelf heads from someone like CB that will make good hp. I bet if you paid someone like Fumio (or Jeff Denham) the FULLrate (and don't underestimate the number of hours it takes to do a good job) for doing a set of dynamite 311 heads, you'd be amazed at how much you'd get out of a smallmotor.

If no one supports these guys, we are actually going back in performance step by step as the know-how is lost.Cal-look/vw tuning has become a spectator sport it seems, thinking inside the box is the norm, and when you think about it, the California look wouldnot have existed if those early boys just copied what guys had done years before. I bet they also heard their fathers saying "don't waste your moneyboy!"

"The adventure is outside the box!" ;) Thats why I like Monkey Boys intiative with his mouse motor quest

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: richie on November 27, 2007, 15:46:08 PM

The internet killed it,its too easy to just copy someone elses recipe now to get a reliable engine that will run 12s and with a bit of work 11s.The factthat it was all trial and error back then,you only read about the succesfull cars & combos,I am sure that to every 11second mouse motor there were a100 broken ones :o

There are a few hardy people that I know running 12s with less than 1800cc and driving them to the track and back,always on regular pump gas,nofiberglass panels,real steel cars,so it can be done.But i am sure they will keep the specs to themselves as its takes time & effort to achieve this.

cheers richie,uk

"If your not breaking parts your not trying hard enough"

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: stealth67vw on November 27, 2007, 16:12:42 PM

Another thing that helps is the gear box. Kris Klingaman and Mike Smith both used 4.86 ring and pinions and something like 1.70 3rd and 1.31 4th.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: The Ideaman on November 27, 2007, 17:44:08 PM

This is absolutely true... (I guess, I wasn't around Smiley) But the litre effect is way down, not to many engines putting out significantly more than100 horse pr liter. If Klingaman stretched his mouse to 8000 (I don't know), he is in the same rpm segment as many other street/strip racers...More like 9500 rpm. 4.86x1.31x26" tire at 9500rpm is about 115mph. These weren't street cars, but highly strung race motors in full weight cars. Iremember A/MC and B/MC cars at englishtown as a kid.(http://www.turbocreations.com/fj20/philske20corolla/ke20karpathioss1b.jpg)I know it isn't a VW, but does anybody remember this car competing?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jim Ratto on November 27, 2007, 18:05:27 PM

Quote from: richie,uk on November 27, 2007, 15:46:08 PM

The internet killed it,its too easy to just copy someone elses recipe now to get a reliable engine that will run 12s and with a bit of work 11s.The fact that it was all trial and errorback then,you only read about the succesfull cars & combos,I am sure that to every 11second mouse motor there were a 100 broken ones :o

There are a few hardy people that I know running 12s with less than 1800cc and driving them to the track and back,always on regular pump gas,no fiberglass panels,real steelcars,so it can be done.But i am sure they will keep the specs to themselves as its takes time & effort to achieve this.

cheers richie,uk

"If your not breaking parts your not trying hard enough"

I agree richie....thank you for posting this. Every "hot rod" VW featured in the mags seems to have the "internet motor" recipe...94 x 82 or 94 x 84,FK8, CB CNC heads, 48IDAs, MSD everything...etc.

I remember how "amazed" some naysayers were about a few of the smaller motors I helped out with. SODA's pump gas, stock-valved 1679, 14.70 onradials, full stock weight car, stock gears raised some eyebrows. Motor ran 40IDFs with 32mm vents. Roger's guys @ Heads Up did the stock valveheads, very conservative porting, SS valves, Bryan ran tall CB manifolds. Cam was like Engle 120 with 1.25's. If we would have gone something like125, and 48IDAs and half a point more compression, I think it would have gone 13's. I helped screw together a 1776 built with mostly used extras thatwere collecting spiders and dust, old FI case, Engle 125, 1.25 rockers, Fred Simpson 40 x 35 heads, 48IDAs, old 1-3/4 header. Went 13.01 off trailer inlightened '66 with slicks. Same car with 1914, FK10, 42 x 37 welded 10.5:1 went 12.81.

As far as motors today, if guys wanted to build 149 cu in motors (2.3+L) on the ragged edge for the street, built to the same tune level as KK'smotor...personally I think you'd need much larger valves to squeeze 100hp+/liter, meaning moving valves in VW heads or going route of aftermarketcastings and having them modified accordingly. Big 560cc+ cylinders are going to want a lot more mixture than 440cc cylinders to run 8000rpm andmake 100/liter. Or go the way some guys have and put a turbo on. No offense to anybody, but to me some guys bolt turbos on instead of finding away to get air into motor on its own. Please don't kick me off the Lounge!!! ;D

I think KS is right too. Without going to an experienced expert and settling for some mass produced heads for monkiboys idea of a 88 x 69, you'd mostlikely fall way short of making the power, especially across the powerband. SODA's motor was completely driveable, even though it would go 7 thou.Sure, it was cammy, and needed to be spun to 4K to get the most out of it, but it was crisp off idle, no flat spots or garbling or coughing. I think mostof that had to do with heads and not being overcammed.

I think a "ragged edge" car/motor would be fun, but its limited use ability would turn me off. I'm still of the "sports car motor" ilk. Get in it after a fewhours of detailing, turn key, go scare yourself for hours.






Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on November 27, 2007, 20:01:44 PM

What i know is that Klingaman had nitrous on the 1776 engine ! I remember the hot VW's articel , i think so . It was the time when Mike Smith did 11passes with his red 67 street car and 1776 nitrous engine .

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: SOB/RFH on November 27, 2007, 20:41:10 PM

Mike Smith used N2O while street racing back in the pre sanctioned body days...I remeber someone (I think Dyno Don) telling about the first time hegot down to Nabisco and did beat the heavy hitter V8:s with that stock looking VW.........That was the white car.....and then there was the red carand that was more of a street car (I presume)...........Anyway how can it be that Kris Klingamans car weighted 1770 lbs in race trim and 2020 in streettrim....more gasoline?.....It took me years to beat the 12.40 of Chris with my car and it was driven to and back from the track.......true 2020 lbsweight and GUESS WHAT!!! I SHIFTED AT 6500 RPM!!!!! AND WENT THRUE LIGHT UNDER 6K!!! That is what I think is the diffrence between today andyesterday.....The low rpm:s power is made at and the longivty that comes from that!!!!


After looking closer at Klingamans 1751ccm engine it`s clear he did not use nitrous. Having punched the numbers in three different ET/HP calculatorsthey all came up with between 186 and 188hp - cool number from a such a small engine. But with a mandatory tear down after 10 passes it waspretty hard core. So that`s the limit using some heavily ported heads from some of the big names in the industry - a little bit over 100hp/litre?

Why? is the old fashion design of our engine the main reason why it`s not possible to get more or is it the way we build them?

BB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: louisb on November 27, 2007, 20:59:25 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 20:53:35 PM

After looking closer at Klingamans 1751ccm engine it`s clear he did not use nitrous. Having punched the numbers in three different ET/HP calculators they all came up withbetween 186 and 188hp - cool number from a such a small engine. But with a mandatory tear down after 10 passes it was pretty hard core. So that`s the limit using some heavilyported heads from some of the big names in the industry - a little bit over 100hp/litre?

Why? is the old fashion design of our engine the main reason why it`s not possible to get more or is it the way we build them?

BB

I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt, newer technologies such as roller cams, aftermarket heads and blocks, cams, light valvetrains, FI. and yes even turbos. There is also the limitation of the trans to deal with.

--louis

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Animal on November 27, 2007, 21:27:33 PM

Boy i like this thread,reminds me of my first 1679cc engine.My stock heads came from Dave Kawell witt ss valves and dual springs.With a w130 cam and IDA's the engine made some 100 hp.

When i switched to kawells 40x35.5 heads fully ported and polisheden raised compression (12:1) i ran in the 13's with a 4.86 gearbox with superdiff ;D


I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt newer technologies

Now that is a statement I find very interesting! So you think there is potential for more power by trying out new technology and know how? How muchmore do you think is possible?

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:15:46 AM

I still say guys are not willing to build ticking time bombs.

I don't think guys (on this forum at least ;D) are interested in going to 52 x 40mm valves and 62mm carbs and so on...to make the big guns spin9000+

it would be cool to build a sub 1800cc flashbulb motor...somebody do it!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on November 28, 2007, 00:34:39 AM

ThisQuote from: louisb on November 27, 2007, 20:59:25 PM

I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt, newer technologies such as roller cams, aftermarket heads and blocks, cams, light valve trains, FI. and yes eventurbos. There is also the limitation of the trans to deal with. --louis

You are ofcourse so right you can be.

If you hand over a VW type1 engine to for example a Kawasaki engine designer what could he do with just two valves? With their fancy equipment andsophisticated math, well over 100 horses pr lliter could be expected, but at a lower rpm than you would think... And how about a Nascar engine





designer?

But I don’t know anyone like that, but I DO know a road racing tuner that made the front page of a international Road racing Magazine. He took a fullyfactory race tuned Kawa and got it do deliver more torque and hp than the factory did, still within the class rules...! He is a welder during the daytimeand works on these bikes in the evenings... his only weapon is a old Norwegian textbook from the fifties and a casio calculator... the book is called"CarTuning"

I think if these textbooks were more common place in the days before the "internet" deigns... Could this be a way to go back in time? Or is this whateverybody does and I’m just in the dark?? ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:39:19 AM

maybe I am PUI-ing but we need heads with swappable intake port inserts, like carb venturies. ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on November 28, 2007, 02:15:44 AM

I think 100hp per liter with this old architecture is asking a lot- especially if you want to drive it often! What I think makes a good powerful streetengine is one that makes 1hp and 1 ft/lb of torque per cubic inch of displacement. Like a 1679 that makes 102hp and 102ft/lbs of torque. If you wanta little more, try getting that 102hp/102tq to the rollers. Sounds like fun to me ::)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on November 28, 2007, 06:45:59 AM




One big reason the old motors did produce a lot of horsepower for their size was down to superior head work. When you didn't have a range if aftermarket heads to choose from,there was no option but to extract the maximum from factory 311 castings.

Hi Keith

This is why i still gather 311 heads . :)

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on November 28, 2007, 09:20:21 AM

Quote from: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:15:46 AM

I still say guys are not willing to build ticking time bombs. I don't think guys (on this forum at least ;D) are interested in going to 52 x 40mm valves and 62mm carbs and soon...to make the big guns spin 9000+


If I understand your reply correctly you`re saying that we would probably need to rev the engine to the extreme, use big valves and high dollar partsto be able to reach the "next" level? And the engine would still be a ticking bomb due to "stretching the limits"?

JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thread in the direction I was hoping for; what will happen if we are willing to adapt to newer technologies anduse the theories available today? Will we still end up with the same results we see today? If the answer to that question is YES then we know we`redoing something right and has been doing so for many years. But if the answer is NO and we reach the "next level"......well, then we have learntsomething new.

Yes - it would be cool to build a small engine with the above in mind and see the result.

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on November 28, 2007, 10:25:55 AM

Whats your defenition of "the next level"??

In my opinion going for bigger carbs,valves,displacment...etc is NOT the next level, its just pushing the limits of whats possible to put on a type 1engine. I think this is one of the main reason why we aren`t reaching the next level. Most people just go bigger and hope for the best, bigger isn`talways better as we all know.

To me "the next level" is FINESSE! F.ex take a 2007ccm that produces 183 hp at 7500rpm, if you can make the same engine produce 239 hp at7500rpm then your taking it to the next level in my opinion. And I dont mean that you should slap on a turbo or EFI, because to me thats not TRUEcal-look.(but that another discussion ;))


The bigger better route is the racers route I feel, they don’t mind having huge valves, changing springs after one event and so on. That path left onthat route is rather short when it comes to the type1 platform, due to the dimensions of the poor thing.

But surely that’s NOT what we are talking about, is it??I thought we were talking about getting the most out of a mouse engine, sure you could use the same approach to a bigger lump and get more, butthat is for the racers.The reason I was curious about Klingaman was because he must have had super nice heads, and he got high Volumetric Efficiency out of that engine.Sure he used a race cam and high revs, but I think that engine with a lesser cam would STILL be a efficient thing. ?


Thank you for keeping the focus JHU.

Are you saying that you believe it is possible to build a effiecent little thing without adding race thinking in the mix? And by efficient I mean100hp/litre.






Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: The Ideaman on November 28, 2007, 15:46:30 PM

Taylor Walton is building a motor for NHRA ss/fs. It will be a rollercammed 94x60 motor with Heads Up! heads and a dry sump oiling system. He'shoping for mid 11's and the record. They have many hours of flowbench work done. I sold him the 67 shell he's using to base the project on.



Quote from: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:15:46 AM

I still say guys are not willing to build ticking time bombs. I don't think guys (on this forum at least ;D) are interested in going to 52 x 40mm valves and 62mm carbs and soon...to make the big guns spin 9000+


If I understand your reply correctly you`re saying that we would probably need to rev the engine to the extreme, use big valves and high dollar parts to be able to reach the"next" level? And the engine would still be a ticking bomb due to "stretching the limits"?

JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thread in the direction I was hoping for; what will happen if we are willing to adapt to newer technologies and use the theories availabletoday? Will we still end up with the same results we see today? If the answer to that question is YES then we know we`re doing something right and has been doing so for manyyears. But if the answer is NO and we reach the "next level"......well, then we have learnt something new.

Yes - it would be cool to build a small engine with the above in mind and see the result.

Best rgsBB

Hi BB! Yeah, I got off topic, sorry. I kind of misunderstood what guys were getting at. Seems everything today is BIG CC, no matter if it is race or hot street.Which is ok. Not knocking that. I would be VERY impressed to see a smaller displacement street engine (i.e. 1679, 1776, 1835...) tuned to the level that would get it into the 12 secslot.....but still be "streetable" (no need to get into a "discussion about what streetable" is....my god, has THAT been over-argued!!!!), however a guywould go about it...it would take brains and patience. I think it comes down to reducing weight of reciprocating parts, reducing drag and windage, andmaking heads (and matching cam to) that have airspeed and flow characteristics to match bore x stroke and rpm needed (remember hp is a product ofrpm). As you all know, you need extreme valve timing to get rpms into stratosphere, along with light stuff, and high CR to get most of cam timing. Ikeep threatening to build something like this, I have my old 94mm German case, and some other junk laying around..... ::)

I know a 1914 isn't a mouse motor, it is more like a squirrel.. but how about a 1914 with 14:1, FK87, 1.5 rockers, 44 x 37 Super Flows and rest of theusual crap. 6lb Crown flywheel, aftermarket 5.352 rods, lightweight wrist pins, manicured skirts on 'A' pistons, relieved case webs....bla bla bla... I'dhave to PUI to think of more stuff. ;D

Key point is: matching head flow and airspeed and cam profile to get to the rpms you need, without making a slug. And keeping stuff as light and asfree spinning as possible.

Bye for now


here's a question for the opinionated and technically minded....

if you HAD to choose one scenario (I know they're neither ideal), which would it be?

"over"-ported heads (ports too large and lazy for cc and use of motor), but with conservative cam timing (like FK8?)

"conservatively" ported heads (maybe cross section is too small for top rpm for cc), but with much hotter cam...like FK87 (275-280' @ .050")?

Which one would you choose?


Quote from: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 22:01:16 PM


You could always tune the engine to be liveable at some rpm through cam advance, timing, induction and exhaust. Not much you can do about portvelocity on heads that are too big.


JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thread in the direction

I have obviously failed somehow. ;)

Just my thoughs,

--louis

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on November 30, 2007, 01:23:12 AM

"The adventure is outside the box!" WinkThats why I like Monkey Boys intiative with his mouse motor quest

Thanks for the props JHU ;) :)

I am not too sure about 100bhp per litre cos thats 167.9bhp for my planned mouse motor :o BUT I do think we need to start "thinking outside the box" a perfect example was Richies idea about narrowing the Cam/crank gear - Now thats what I'm talking about ;) :)

Too many people these days listen to those people who say "what you wanna do is........." or "what you need is......" and copy other peoplescombo's but never REALLY know how the whole engine is working together - this is just my 2 cents guys ;) :)

Its all about going back to the true basics of "Blueprinting" :)







Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on November 30, 2007, 09:33:45 AM

Quote from: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 22:01:16 PM

here's a question for the opinionated and technically minded....

if you HAD to choose one scenario (I know they're neither ideal), which would it be?

"over"-ported heads (ports too large and lazy for cc and use of motor), but with conservative cam timing (like FK8?)


Which one would you choose?

Mr Ratto,Why choose between pest and cholera? And how do you know your heads are "over" ported.

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ESH on November 30, 2007, 10:20:58 AM


I asked in the other thread if it is possible to reach the 100hp/l limit without having to spend a fortune and I have received info that this is impossible to reach - especially if youwant a true street engine.

The answer to the first part of that question is obviously yes, Formula Vee engines of 1600cc have put out something in the order of 180bhp for yearsbut the answer to the second part is go try it, Lee/Kalle talk to G.A.C. (I can get you the phone number) who have been building this type of motorfor quite a while and let us know how it's doing in 5 years (or let's say 30K miles time). It'll be a interesting experiment and I'm pleased to seesomeone's going to try it!

:)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: John Maher on November 30, 2007, 12:44:36 PM

In my experience I find it’s possible to achieve an output of 90bhp/litre on what I regard as a perfectly streetable engine eg 2276cc making 204bhp...i.e. a street/strip motor. That’s equivalent to a 1679cc engine making 150bhp while still retaining a semblance of drivability. Is that possible with a1679? Definitely, but it won’t be as relaxed a drive as the 2276cc motor.

Stepping up to 100bhp/litre is certainly achievable but will start to stretch the boundaries of what might be regarded as streetable by some, mostdefinitely in the case of the 1679cc motor. All depends on your definition of 'street motor'. If both engines were being built purely for the strip, youshould be aiming a lot higher than 100bhp/litre but there’s no way they’d be getting used on the street.

Larger motors will always make for a better street/strip engine because you can build in a good mix of mid-range torque and peak bhp. For bestperformance on the track you need power rather than torque and the mods required to get really good power out of a small n/a motor (big valves andports, long duration cam etc) will push the rpm range sky-high, which has the effect of killing torque in the low and mid-range rpm—exactly where youneed it for good performance on the street.

The small cc, high hp motors from the ‘70s and early ‘80s mostly came about as a result of NHRA class rules, where permitted engine size was dictatedby vehicle weight, which gave a lighter car with a well designed small capacity engine an advantage over the larger engined heavyweights. IMO it’sonly when we see a racing class with a well defined set of restrictive rules that great developments take place. It focuses the mind and encouragespeople to push things to the limit. We saw it again with the introduction of PRA Pro Stock and Super Street. That was the first time VW n/a engineswere being built where 48IDAs became the restricting factor and prompted the development of larger carbs and even some alternative inductionsystems etc etc. Racing technology always ends up trickling down to the street.

As an extreme example, take a look at NHRA Pro Stock 500 cubic inch engines. Normally aspirated, pushrods, two valves per cylinder and a pair of 4barrel carbs. Working within those restrictions for decades has seen continual development push power towards 1400bhp….. that’s more than165bhp/litre. That’s equivalent to a n/a 1679cc engine making 277bhp!

Only problem with working within a very defined set of rules is the optimised combinations that work so well on one particular engine won’t necessarilytransfer across to another engine being built to a different specification. Take British Formula Vee. They use a 1285cc single port engine, with stockvalve sizes and make around 100bhp. They work incredibly well considering the limitations of the rules and are a good example of what continueddevelopment can deliver, but bolt one into a road going car and you won’t get very far. Also, apply the bhp/litre formula and you fall well short of whatmight be regarded as a great performing street engine i.e. approx 80bhp/litre so it doesn't work as a great model for a high powered street car.

Sometimes the focus is too much on the peak bhp figure. The car that performs the best on the track is the one that makes best AVERAGE power inthe rpm range it sees through each gear. It's the area under the curve that counts.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on November 30, 2007, 13:24:20 PM

Quote

Sometimes the focus is too much on the peak bhp figure. The car that performs the best on the track is the one that makes best AVERAGE power in the rpm range it sees througheach gear. It's the area under the curve that counts.

This is a VERY VERY good point John!Alot of people seems to forget this(including me) ::)


Quote from: John Maher on November 30, 2007, 12:44:36 PM

Stepping up to 100bhp/litre is certainly achievable but will start to stretch the boundaries of what might be regarded as streetable by some, most definitely in the case of the1679cc motor.

First of all, THANKS for a brilliant post!

I'm curious as to why a smaller engine would suffer more from "efficiency" than a bigger one? Surely the weight of the reciprocating parts must be lessin a engine of smaller volume? (If this isn't so there must be a optimal size somewhere where the weight of the parts (wear) meets optiamal output?)

What do you think the "next level" is John?






Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: John Maher on November 30, 2007, 16:07:00 PM

Quote from: JHU on November 30, 2007, 13:51:38 PM

First of all, THANKS for a brilliant post!

I'm curious as to why a smaller engine would suffer more from "efficiency" than a bigger one? Surely the weight of the reciprocating parts must be less in a engine of smallervolume? (If this isn't so there must be a optimal size somewhere where the weight of the parts (wear) meets optiamal output?)

Generally speaking, reducing the weight of components won't make any difference to power output (assuming all parts concerened are capable ofdoing their job). Lighter parts, such as rods, crank, flywheel, pistons have less rotational inertia which allows the engine to accelerate more quicklyfrom one rpm point to another, so performance on the track is improved while measured power remains the same. That's why one 200bhp engine canbe faster than another 200hp engine. Same goes for vehicle weight and aerodynamics. An improvement in either will make for better ETs with nochange in engine power.

Quote from: JHU on November 30, 2007, 13:51:38 PM

What do you think the "next level" is John?

It all depends on intended use for the engine. From a racer’s point of view I believe a major limiting factor is the VW’s stroke to bore ratio. Look at anyserious n/a professional race series (F1, NHRA Pro Stock etc) and you’ll find they use a large bore in comparison to crank stroke.

Increasing bore and reducing stroke delivers two significant benefits to a high rpm race engine… the shorter stroke reduces piston speed and thelarger bore makes room for bigger valves…..

Imagine a theoretical drag race series dictating a maximum capacity of 2276cc (normally 82mm x 94mm). If the rules allow any combination of bore andstroke I’d be looking at say a 101.6mm bore rather than 94mm, and reducing stroke from 82mm to 70mm (2270cc). A set of suitably modified 101.6mmheads would easily outflow anything you could fit on a 94mm bore engine.

Second major gain is a reduction in piston speed. At 7000rpm, an 82mm stroke motor has an average piston speed of 3766 feet per minute. Reducestroke, the piston has less distance to travel in the same time and speed falls to 3215 feet/min for the 70mm crank at the same rpm. Therefore higherrpm is on the cards with the 70mm stroke and the bigger ports and valves of the 101.6mm heads can make some serious power, assuming they’reteamed up with suitable cam, induction, exhaust etc

Horsepower lost to friction is also a factor with approx 75% of an engine's friction hp being caused by ring to cylinder contact. The reduction in strokemore than offsets the extra contact area of the larger diameter rings so more power is being used to turn the engine than being lost as heat.

Currently there’s no real incentive to persuade someone to build a short stroke, big bore n/a engine because having a higher bhp/litre ratio isn't goingto win you the race if the guy in the next lane has more total bhp. But if you're looking to maximise bhp/litre, IMO this would be the route to explore.

In the meantime max stroke/max bore engines will dominate but at the expense of bhp/litre and unless something comes along to cap engine size, theobvious route is to increase capacity by whatever means practical so naturally people will continue to opt for the longest stroke crank they canphysically fit in the block. The fact remains, for a tractable street motor you can't beat an increase in displacement.

If you want an easy route to force more air through your engine, make lots of power, have good driveability on the street and bump up bhp/litre, fitmappable EFI and a turbocharger. ;)


Wow, there is some great information there. Thanks for posting that.

--louis

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: richie on November 30, 2007, 16:32:11 PM


If you want an easy route to force more air through your engine, make lots of power, have good driveability on the street and bump up bhp/litre, fit mappable EFI and aturbocharger. ;)

Afternoon John :)

So you think that would work :o ;D

cheers richie,uk





Afternoon John :)


cheers richie,uk

::)

Anyone can make a turbo engine go fast. :P ;) ;D

--louis












Afternoon John :)


cheers richie,uk

Probably would but thats cheating you know ;)

Thank you for your post John. Very interesting info!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on December 02, 2007, 00:15:17 AM

All very interesting this, clearly enthusiasm for small cc engines is alive and well in these parts.

For my part I think you need to have a realistic expectation if you’re going to head down the small cc na rapid street car route. It’s a fairly obviousthing to say but the faster you want to go the more difficult it becomes to keep the car streetable (not that this is unique to small cc engines). Thatsaid personally I’ve always thought when I want to drive my car its to go for a raz not just bumble about in it wishing it was more tractablecomfortable, quiet etc. Its not that the car is unreliable but you need to want to drive it. As with all things there are compromises to make and we alldraw the line at a different point, hence the constant argument about what a street car is.

I for one am keen to chase the na 100bhp per litre mark on pump gas, if for nothing else just for the achievement. Although as John has suggestedabove it’s not all about bhp. To turn a good ET particularly when you chose a small cc option, maximising other areas is even more important thenwhen you choose a more powerful combination.

Interestingly though I’m not quite sure it’s as difficult as most people might have you believe to get to a point where you can go quicker than mostpeople with a similar combination. I think most people are content with a combination once it’s in the back of their car and running ok. Then there’sthe likes of the people that frequent this forum who take a strange fascination in spending lots of time, effort and often money to achieve more withless.

I run a na 1776cc because I like the small engine combination and it’s a common boring old size that most people pass by on there way to bigger and“better” things.

The biggest problem we all face is the lack of R&D as the majority of us developing our combinations do not have hours of backed up results at thetrack and dyno. All in all though looking at some of the numbers people are turning on here looks like people are doing pretty well.

Just for the record does anyone know how fast people have been with a na 1776cc motor (regular 69 x 90.5 combination) in a race or street car in thepast, as it would be nice to know what to aim for.

Glad to see the small motors are still chasing down the big guns!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on December 02, 2007, 00:23:40 AM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on December 02, 2007, 00:15:17 AM


Still chasing?.... Soon they will be ahead. ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on December 02, 2007, 01:11:15 AM

Quote from: BeetleBug on December 02, 2007, 00:23:40 AM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on December 02, 2007, 00:15:17 AM


Still chasing?.... Soon they will be ahead. ;)

Dam Right ;) :)

also some very good points Peter - I willbe doing a LOT of research for my mouse motor :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on December 02, 2007, 14:39:28 PM


Generally speaking, reducing the weight of components won't make any difference to power output (assuming all parts concerened are capable of doing their job). Lighter parts,such as rods, crank, flywheel, pistons have less rotational inertia which allows the engine to accelerate more quickly from one rpm point to another, so performance on the track isimproved while measured power remains the same.

This is obviously both right and interesting, but its not really a answer to what I asked about, or rather what I tried to ask about (English is hard). Ifind everyone saying that a smaler engine would suffer more from being efficient, and by efficient I'm talking about good cylinder filling and therebyrealizing the power and the torque the engine size is capable of.


higher rpm is on the cards with the 70mm stroke and the bigger ports and valves of the 101.6mm heads can make some serious power, assuming they’re teamed up withsuitable cam, induction, exhaust etc

I think this also could be used as a pro "short stroke engine" argument, but what I really is aiming at is the later part of you sentence, the "teaming"up sentence.As soon as you mention rising the efficency, people reach for the Alarm button, maked drivability/long-livety.

Are we really at the breakpoint for efficiency and longlivety?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on December 02, 2007, 22:54:48 PM

Hello!

After following this very interesting thread I have decided to build a "mouse motor" with almost only original parts and by using some simple math and










sience.

Engine spec:

Case: original AS41Crank:German stockRods:German stockPistons:JE 86mm 24mm comp hightCylinders:Stock 85,5mm honed to 86mmHeads:043 40x32mm valvesCompression:12,0:1Rockers:Jpm two stud 1,5:1 ratioP-rods:Manton 3/8" cromolyCam:Fk45in/Fk44 exCam gears:MagnumOilpump:26mmDeepsump:1,5litFlywheel:180mm stock lightendClutch disc:cush lockPressure plate:KennedyHeader:Custom made 1 5/8" tuned lengthManifolds:Custom made tuned length(second order)Carbs:IDA 48

The most expensive parts in this concept is the JE pistons, but I feel they are nessecery if the calculated power should be optained.

All the parts will of course be inspected and modified(linebored,shuffle pinned,balanced,fullflowed etc..........) to take the higher output.

Heads:

The heads will recive a little welding in some areas and ported to achive as high flow as possible in the limitations of the calculated port size.

Cam:

I will use a cam with split duration, fk45 intake and fk44 exhaust.The less ex duration will give a superior midrange without loosing top end, if the export flows enough, a good choise when using a "Hi-Po" engine onthe street.

I have decided to use a 40mm intake valve because of the 86mm bore, and the valve will not be moved to the center of the cylinder,a bigger valve willbe to much shrouded from the cylinder wall.

Calculation:

The formula I will use to see how much rpm the 40mm valve will be good for is:

RPM=3300000xPort dia xPort dia/BorexBore xStroke

This formula is based on a mean port velocity at 110m/s or(360ft/s), and the Port dia is the smallest area in the port.

As this engine is going to be used as a street engine the smallest port size I will use is 0,88 x valve dia(0,88x40=35,2mm)

RPM calculation:3300000x35,2x35,2/86x86x69=8012rpm

The teoretical rpm where peak power will be is 8012 rpm.

Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With thisinformation we can calculate the POWER of the "mouse motor".

Formula:

P=Displ x rpm x Bmep/910

POWER=1,603 x 8012 x 12,5 / 910 = 176,4hp

This is the power that could be expected from the "mouse motor" if everything is properly done.

With properly done I mean everything like heads,compression,cam timing,exhaust length,intake length,friction etc..................... .

I will start on this project in the next week but as I run a company it will take some time to finish it, probably in mars 2008.

During that time I will keep you updated with pictures and info as the project continous.

When the "mouse motor" is done there will be som serious dyno testing and tuning, hopefully we will see the numbers that i come up with in thecalculations above.

To me,this is what I belive is "Thinking outside the box" and "The next level".

With Best Regards

Johannes PerssonJP MotorsportSweden

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: lawrence on December 02, 2007, 23:13:56 PM

Way to go, Johannes and everyone else who is attempting to build a mouse motor! Everyone, please keep the lounge updated with pictures,specifications, etc. This is interesting stuff. While not trying to sound emotional, attempting to build a mouse motor that will survive is a fitting tributeto our cal-look forefathers who did the same with less technology at their finger tips.

I want to do something like this one day.




WOW, what else can I say? That sounds like a hefty output of such a small capacity!I just hope you keep us informed when you start building this powerful dwarf. This small/original parts approach has old school written all over it,except for those nice pistons, (BTW how much would one loose by using stock pistons with their fat piston rings? Or is it to avoid "ring flutter") And it's just what I expected, the big guys use simple formulas to "home" in on the target, but you are the first one that has been willing to showthem. I will have a good time checking over my engine with these formulas when I have an night free.

Quote from: lawrence on December 02, 2007, 23:13:56 PM

attempting to build a mouse motor that will survive is a fitting tribute to our cal-look forefathers who did the same with less technology at their finger tips.

I think you are right Lawrence, another big thing was the lack of over the shelf parts, it will be cool to see all these Mouse motors beeing built, andthat makes me wonder about thing John Mahler said about racing beeing one of the most impotant ways to push the limits.How about a MOUSE class? Alternatively could we design a class that would push forward the "street" engine? Limit both the RPM and the volume?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: christophe on December 03, 2007, 15:42:35 PM

Like JHU said....WOW!!!!

But where the 3300000 are coming from in your formula?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on December 03, 2007, 21:24:16 PM

Johannes, this is for sure one build thread I`m really looking forward to read and study. For us not so familiar with the formulas used could you pleasetake some time to explain them. Thanks,

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jim Ratto on December 03, 2007, 21:37:35 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on December 03, 2007, 21:24:16 PM

Johannes, this is for sure one build thread I`m really looking forward to read and study. For us not so familiar with the formulas used could you please take some time to explainthem. Thanks,

Best rgsBB

a great read on this topic...and overall engine tuning techniques.... Four Stroke Performance Tuning by AG Bell. Covers more subject matter than anyother book I have gone through. Excellent chapter on camshafts and why we advance, retard, and so on. Seat duration vs. .050", etc. Valve diametervs. cylinder displacement and use of engine....I highly suggest it.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on December 03, 2007, 21:56:33 PM

I`m speatchless!! :oMAN...I love this tread! :)I hope that one day, I also will be able to build an engine without to mutch "swaging" :)

Quote from: christophe on December 03, 2007, 15:42:35 PM

But where the 3300000 are coming from in your formula?

I`m just guessing but 3300000 in the rpm equation and 910 in the power equation is probably constants(a locked number) that gives you the desiredterm after the answer in your equations(f.ex rpm or hp)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: JS on December 03, 2007, 22:34:23 PM

175hp in a 1600ccm :oI´m REALLY looking forward to this! ;D


Quote from: Jim Ratto on December 03, 2007, 21:37:35 PM

Four Stroke Performance Tuning by AG Bell. Covers more subject matter than any other book I have gone through. Excellent chapter on camshafts and why we advance, retard,and so on. Seat duration vs. .050", etc. Valve diameter vs. cylinder displacement and use of engine....I highly suggest it.

Thanks, thats a good tip!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on December 04, 2007, 09:02:21 AM

Hello,

The 3300000 and 910 are constants created from many other formulas which have fixed numbers in them.

Exemple:

To calculate the area of a circle I use this formula : dia x dia x 3,14/4, the 3,14 and 4 are always there so you could "bake" them together 3,14 /4=0,785 and there you have a constant,the new formula is: dia x dia x 0,785=area.

RegardsJohannes







Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: christophe on December 04, 2007, 09:37:27 AM

OK. Thanks.Will you put this engine on your blue sleeper and race it this summer?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on December 04, 2007, 15:52:15 PM

Hi Johannes,

Is there any smartness behind your choice of compression height? What does it mean if you move the weight of the piston up or down over the rod? Ido understand choice of compression height, when you have long stroke, but in this engine is there any gain?

Thanks

Roar Lunde


Hi Roar,

Perhaps you already no about this, but this is the reasons.

1: You do not get that much piston "rattle" when the the piston pin is closer to the rings,means less blow by.2: It is very important to get as short push rods and cyl studs as possible, when rpm is going up a shorter(stiffer,lighter) is extremely important andthe rgidity of the cylinder and heads are improved a lot, (better valve control).You also end up with a narrower engine that fits better in your car , winwin situation.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on December 04, 2007, 23:54:43 PM

Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With thisinformation we can calculate the POWER of the "mouse motor".Is it possible to calulate the Bmep?Whats the reason that you estimate the Bmep to be 12-13bar(why not 10 or 15?)Is it link between CR and Bmep?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: John Maher on December 05, 2007, 12:47:20 PM

Quote from: folkevogn on December 04, 2007, 23:54:43 PM

Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With this information we can calculate thePOWER of the "mouse motor".Is it possible to calulate the Bmep?Whats the reason that you estimate the Bmep to be 12-13bar(why not 10 or 15?)Is it link between CR and Bmep?

BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) is a useful way of comparing efficiency of various engines, regardless of capacity or manufacturer.

BMEP formula below calculates AVERAGE pressure (psi) acting on the piston during the entire four stroke cycle.

BMEP =(2471.174 x Torque) / engine cc

To find torque from Johannes calculations (176.4bhp @ 8012 rpm)....

Torque (ftlb) = (bhp x 5252) / RPM

so.......

Torque = (176.4 x 5252) / 8012 = 115.6ftlb i.e 115.6ftlb @ 8012rpm

Plug the torque value into the BMEP formula and you have...

BMEP =(2474.174 x 115.6ftlb) / 1602cc = 178.5psi = 12.3 bar

The maths and physics used to calculate the engine's power potential are sound. Now it's simply a matter of making it reality.

Very interesting project. Looking forward to the seeing the results.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: K-Roc on December 05, 2007, 19:44:05 PM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on December 02, 2007, 22:54:48 PM

The formula I will use to see how much rpm the 40mm valve will be good for is:

RPM=3300000xPort dia xPort dia/BorexBore xStroke

This formula is based on a mean port velocity at 110m/s or(360ft/s), and the Port dia is the smallest area in the port.

Hi, this calculation above ( I believe) is used to determine the port velocity as compared to a measurment on a Pitot Tube not the actual .55 Mach,or 613 Ft/second that some other caculations use,

Like this Example

RPM = ( FPS * CA ) / ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * .00353 )

where; RPM = point of desired Peak HP





FPS = Feet per Second or 613.975CA = Cross-Sectional Area in Square Inches (smallest measured)

FPS = ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * RPM * .00353 ) / CA

CA = ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * RPM * .00353 ) / FPS

( I just wanted to point that out in case some folks are confused by reading various formulas...)

Thanks,

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on December 05, 2007, 19:44:50 PM

We had 1600 cc engines up to 130 hp and 1776 cc up to 150 hp in the mid 80's . That was a lot of fun to race against the bigger cc engines . But atthat time we only worked with german camshafts . Today there should be some more power on those engines :)

Udo


once you get the small cc engine to produce 85 or 100hp per liter, which may equate to 165 hp or so, what about making the hp work in a Type 1?"Work" meaning having a fast street car from light to light, getting on highway, and also getting down the strip faster than your neighbor?

I think things to consider are gearing to make the engine "work" and to take adavantage of torque multiplication of "closer" gears, since the engineitself is going to give up a wide torque spread. I don't think first and second need to be wall climbers, in fact a slightly taller 1st on a 4.37 r/p might bethe trick, to allow the car to get some distance through the rpm.

Unsprung weight is a biggie too. Big heavy wheels and tires are gonna slow a little motor way down. ERCOs are a must I would guess.....


Hi,At the moment I am at the PRI show Orlando Florida and will be back in business 11/12.

RegardsJohannes Persson

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Animal on December 06, 2007, 20:13:14 PM

Mail us some sun overhere in holland Johannes ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on December 09, 2007, 22:06:04 PM

From my experience I would say Jim is on the money. As I suggested previously the “combination” of engine, gearbox and car becomes far moreimportant when there is less slack available with the motor. I think I’ve got some decent ratios in the box and have saved weight where I can (withinmy own constraints) so my interior is more race car than comfy Cal Looker but its drivable to the track and back and has turned a best of 12.44 @105mph (without the fan belt and with a stinger and slicks) from a regular 69x90.5 1776.

Winter plans hope to see me going a bit quicker next year but time will tell, as progress has been slow over the years. I remember racing Richie in 2001(I think), it was my first time out with the car, he ran 12.8ish (his first 12 if I remember) and I ran a 13.0 but here we are 6 years later and he is downto 9.7s and I’m still in the mid 12’s!

It will be interesting to see how people get on with there winter plans and see the numbers from the dyno sessions and more importantly at the track,as the Dyno figures are for the bench racers and mag features, it’s the ET that counts (IMHO).

One thing Jim was wrong about though, the car has gone much quicker with BRM’s than it did with the Erco’s so I’ll be sticking to the mouldy old magsfor now!

Just wondered if anyone has had any thoughts on how quickly people have gone with a na 1776 in the past (race and street cars), I’m sure there hasbeen plenty of quick cars over the years, so if any one can recall a few cars and numbers I would appreciate it.

Happy winter tinkering to you all.


Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though, but that is a fair dollopof HP from a 1679. Check out the bugin 32 DVD as there are a few runs shown the rail is called superior steel. Needless to say it sounds bonkers! Itwas also featured in HotVWs in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue might like to take a look and post it up here for the record. If Iremember rightly there were credits to the Bergs, the Eversons and Mr Klingerman, so there are a lot of proper people involved.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ESH on December 11, 2007, 13:31:36 PM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 12:33:40 PM

...Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though...

I heard of a nine second dragster (runs at Englishtown, NJ) which has a naturally aspirated motor of around 1900cc but pulling low nines out of a 1679is quite something. That said I suspect getting that motor to the shops would be "quite something" too!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school




Post by: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 14:14:22 PM

I think it was no nonsense 9.25 or similar so like you say a major achievement, I think the turning circle and the air shifted trans might present a fewproblems in the supermarket car park as well!


Just had a quick look at the BugIn 32 DVD, if you have it check out 58 mins and 45 seconds and listen to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm really does soundgreat! Actually it sounds really good on tick over as well. You guy's building 1679's have a lot to live up to, but I’m looking forward to hearing somelittle screamers at EBI2.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ESH on December 11, 2007, 21:46:43 PM


... if you have it check out 58 mins and 45 seconds and listen to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm really does sound great...

You need to talk to Mike Ishiko next time round, he has some interesting small motor information. They're retarding the ignition at ten five and thenletting it run out some more. Some crazy a$$ stuff and all very clever! 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Ole on December 12, 2007, 10:53:29 AM

Here's another mouse-motor:

It's Siegfried Volland's Autocross engine, raced at the European Autocross Championship in the early 80's.

(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images/000/677/333_f7797952d1a529c9cfdabf6363233f76.JPG)

I don't know much about this engine, I was told it's a 1585cc (69x85.5) and that it makes (made) about 160 horses...

It has a Kugelfischer mechanical injection, KRE throttle bodies (IDA-size), Superflow heads, Autocraft rockers and a big dry-sump oil pump.

I hope some day we'll find the time to put it back into service and fire it up again... I can already hear it... ::)


I think all of us would be very impressed with a 1679cc that made 150hp, wouldn't we? In the right car, driven in anger, that ought to equate to low,low 13's, maybe high 12's. Myself, I wouldn't be so worried about the timeslip...if it scares the hair off of you when you push the go pedal, you've donea good job. I think a Lounge "Engine of the Year" bit would be cool....hp vs. displacement vs. longevity vs...dare I say it, fuel consumption. Kind of like an index ofthermal efficiency.



Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through thelights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though, but that is a fair dollop of HP from a 1679. Check out the bugin 32 DVD as thereare a few runs shown the rail is called superior steel. Needless to say it sounds bonkers! It was also featured in HotVWs in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue mightlike to take a look and post it up here for the record. If I remember rightly there were credits to the Bergs, the Eversons and Mr Klingerman, so there are a lot of proper peopleinvolved.

I believe he was running welded 043 Castings, 42 X 37.5 Steve Timms heads at that time, I will se if I can get him to post some info, ( Wait to you see what he has coming down the pipe.......) He want's the NHRA record back!

K-Roc,


Ole, Interesting cooling on that auto cross motor, I wonder how long the races were as the SF's are not the best a keeping the temps down, but itobviously worked and when you consider the motor gets a good hammering for the race duration....... I wonder with the cooling effect of bio fuels ifthe regular squirrel fans would be good enough to control temps on the street? Anyone fancy being the guinea pig?

Jim makes a good point, in all this high octane talk we should not forget the fun. Its not all about the numbers, a good razz in your street car that’sgot a bit of a sting in the tale is all you really need to make the world look a bit brighter! 12's with 150 hp is possible I would say, assuming the boxhas the right ratios and the car has been on a bit of a diet, not to mention the driver!

K-Roc I've just looked at the Bugin 32 DVD and you're right they are stock looking heads (externally). It would be good to hear from Brian on here ashe clearly has his house in order and he must be paving the way with HP for a 1679 flat four. If he is prepared to share some information (especially ifhe is moving on) I’m sure there will be plenty of people on here who would like to listen to what he has to say.

The way this small engine thing has taken off we could end up with 16 car heads up 1679 field at EBI2, I might even have to sling my big bore 90.5'sand step up to some 88's! That said if Brian jumps over the pond and enters I think we're all doomed.


Just noticed this thread has nearly reached 1679 views, which is quite fitting given the topic!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on December 13, 2007, 17:14:20 PM

I remember Brians 1679 dragster used custom 5" Carrillo rods... 1.84:1 rod ratio...





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: The Ideaman on December 13, 2007, 18:37:02 PM

Yes, and it had welded VW style heads, too. If I remember right, the G/D record got killed by the "Ladybug" dragster from New Jersey. It had a muchbigger motor by the Aragona's. Taylor Walton talks with Brian on occasion.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ESH on December 14, 2007, 10:08:15 AM

Quote from: The Ideaman on December 13, 2007, 18:37:02 PM

...If I remember right, the G/D record got killed by the "Ladybug" dragster from New Jersey. It had a much bigger motor by the Aragona's...

That's the one I was thinking of, it's a 1914cc engine or something isn't it?

:)


Hello Folke,

About the 56 reply,

The bmep is created from the power,displ and rpm of an engine.Today there are many dynoed hi-performance VW engines out there, by using thier numbers in my formula will show you what is a realistic bmep touse.That is the reason why I "picked" 12,5.

To John Maher & K-Rock.

Thanks for good input.

The best way to determine where VE drops off is to use the 0,55 mach index calculation, as K-Roc mentioned.

It is a little bit more "tricky" than using my formula above because you have to know the efficiency of the port(flow/m2 vs crank degree).

This must be done because you can have two ports with the same area but with different flow numbers, the one with the higher flow will reach 0,55mach at higher rpm.

I can strongly recomend the PRI show, it has been three days of HARDCORE racing.

BTW I recived my JE "mouse motor" pistons today I will post some pictures later.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on December 16, 2007, 20:07:01 PM

Quote from: LGK on November 27, 2007, 12:44:31 PM

"thinking out of the box" the answer is INDEED the key to succes ::)

Regards Steve

To get more than 100hp/litre you dosent need to think outside the box, you just have to think... :-)

Of the shelf parts and ideas will get us close with some common sence...

thxRoar

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on December 18, 2007, 03:18:32 AM

The good news is that all three of my 1679cc engines will be for sale soon. 220hp times 3 Brian

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on December 18, 2007, 20:56:26 PM

Quote from: 1946vw on December 18, 2007, 03:18:32 AM

The good news is that all three of my 1679cc engines will be for sale soon. 220hp times 3 Brian

I'M INTERESTED FOR SURE :)


I think I'll join the queue as well. I might be interested in you air shift trany as well if you are changing wholesale, or if not if you're prepared to sharesome info.......... as the shifts sound amazing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I seam to remember it was based on a To#¤ta 5 speed from the Hot VW's featureand it certainly sounded like a 5 speed on the DVD, nice idea I thought with the small cube motor.

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on December 19, 2007, 02:06:59 AM

I thought it was a Liberty trans?







It is a liberty trans just like a V8 pro stock car has. The engines will be for sale after the first of the year they come with Dyno sheets or come hereand see them make power for your self. I have a dyno at the house.Thanks Brian


Hi,

"Santa" came early this year.

Now I have all the parts for the "Mouse motor", I have also done most of the machining to the case like line boring,shuffle pins,extra oil grove in thelifter bores etc..... .The crank assembly will be balanced after christmas, then the short block is the next step.The biggest challenge is of course the heads, the flow potential of the intake port has to be in the range of 190cfm at 25"H2O, that could be hardfrom a 40mm valve at 15,5mm(.613)lift.

Pictures will soon be post.

Merry Christmas &Happy New Year

Johannes Persson


Pic from Johannes:

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benssp on December 21, 2007, 16:10:57 PM

Can't wait to see the results, that flywheel is a piece of art! ;D


More pics:


And more:


And more:


And even more:

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benssp on December 21, 2007, 16:27:11 PM

What 'CC' will it be ? and what size valves? ;D


It will be 1603ccThe strange size comes from Johannes wish to use Stock old VW cylinders, he takes them up from 85,5 to 86 and have pistons to suit.

The heads are 043 with 40x32mm valves...

I love that 180mm flywheel! 8)


Hi benssp,The valve size is 40x32 and the cc is 1603 (86x69mm).

Johannes Persson

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Boom Boom on December 21, 2007, 19:58:21 PM

Have you got a better photo of the flywheel.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: richie on December 21, 2007, 20:57:43 PM



Quote from: gold65turbo on December 21, 2007, 19:58:21 PM

Hav ou got a better photo of the flywheel.

Spellcheck???????????

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Boom Boom on December 21, 2007, 22:06:06 PM

Sorry need a new keyboard :) key are not working that good.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Trond Dahl on December 21, 2007, 23:03:11 PM

Gotta love that flywheel... cant wait for more progress on this very interesting project

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on December 22, 2007, 12:15:04 PM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on December 21, 2007, 16:49:03 PM

Hi benssp,The valve size is 40x32 and the cc is 1603 (86x69mm).

Johannes Persson

Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are their individual produce to customers details?? How much cost them...

Very very nice project Johannes...

ByeTom


Whats the weight of that flywheel btw? ???

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on December 23, 2007, 02:55:57 AM

Quote from: Tom G. on December 22, 2007, 12:15:04 PM

Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are their individual produce to customers details?? How much cost them...

They are custom order thru Johannes (JPM)

Quote from: Bewitched on December 22, 2007, 17:40:11 PM

Whats the weight of that flywheel btw? ???

It weighs 3.2 kg!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: lawrence on December 23, 2007, 03:27:39 AM

That is a 7 pound flywheel!! Johannes, does that have an effect on driveability? Is this strictly a race motor? Its gonna rev like a dirtbike. ;D


Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm with that ;D




I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.


Johannes told me that he has tested his other R&D engine with both heavy and super light flywheel.He got the best time and the highest trap speed with the lightest one. Thats why it's still in the combo.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bruce on December 26, 2007, 20:25:17 PM

I'd like to know his launch rpm with that flywheel. I also think that flywheel weighs less than 7 lbs. My own is 8 lbs and it doesn't have the big windows in it.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: SOB/RFH on December 27, 2007, 09:22:23 AM

Hey. Cool project Johanes. I did one 1600 a few years ago with mostly stock parts (10:1 C/R and a 280 deg cam) and we got a 14.6 out of it in aheavy car. My experience, if it has any value, is the small motor, light car equals light flywheel....heavy car and small motor on the other hand cansuccessfully be ran with heavy flywheel....both combos need high 1:st gearing and high revs to move and will eat R/P:s like they eat hamburgers inthe US...........So what R/P is going to be used and will it survive the first 20 set up runs on the sticky local track or will it be saved by a lot of dynotime :) .........It’s about time that someone kill Sweden’s "best ET so far with a 1600 cc motor" from back in the early 90's.....13.1 in an oval body car,owned by a guy named "Knutte". Car is still around but has a big (broken?) motor and lot of bling-bling. Happiness is a Hot VW!!








Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Roman on December 27, 2007, 19:37:52 PM

Quote from: K-Roc on December 25, 2007, 20:52:17 PM




Quote from: lawrence on December 23, 2007, 03:27:39 AM

Its gonna rev like a dirtbike. ;D

A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno?

I know Johannes has a tranny with really high gearing made for his blue super beetle and the R/D engine that revs over 9500. If he had a "normal"tranny he would do the quarter in only 3 gears.


Hi Again,

Lawrence, the light flywheel will affect driveability, the motor will rew, both up and down, faster which can be experienced like its harder to "cruse"with.This engine will primarely be built for the "strip", but with a heavier flywheel it will be very streetable.

Bruce, the launch rpm in the car that I am going to use(type 1 -63 1650lbs) will probably be between 7-8k.

K-Rock, There will be time slips the comming summer with this "Mouse Motor", the most objectiv dyno is the dragstrip, is´nt it?.I am not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" project,I do it because of my dedication to the type 1 engine,learning andunderstanding the internal combustion engine and shareing experience with you Loungers.

Tom, I will e-mail you later.

SOB, good input.The car to be used with the "Mouse Motor" is a type 1 -63 1650lbs(750kg)at the starting line, it has a low ratio transaxel R/P 4.86:1 close ratio with 1.37:1 on the fourth gear.The rims are Saco five bolt and the tires are M&H 6x26-15.On a small engine, the weight of the rotating engine parts has to be in relation to the vehicle weight and gearing. BTW in 1997 I did several 12.50s 165km/h with my 1679cc in my old yellow type 1.

The shortblock is almost done by now.

Enjoy the pictures.

Johannes Persson

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: K-Roc on December 28, 2007, 00:26:13 AM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on December 28, 2007, 00:01:10 AM

K-Rock, There will be time slips the comming summer with this "Mouse Motor", the most objectiv dyno is the dragstrip, is´nt it?.I am not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" project,I do it because of my dedication to the type 1 engine,learning and understanding the internalcombustion engine and shareing experience with you Loungers.

Hi Johannes I just want to let you know that I think it is awesome that you are able to make this project happen, I wish I had the means and time todo the same, In my mind I figure that with the flywheel that light that on launch once the inertia is released from the flywheel it would be hard toreplace it to keep the car accelrating out of the hole and down the track. However with you old times of 12.50's at 165 Kmh, that would prove mewrong :) and that wouldn't be the first time! LOL!Good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some killer results.

K-Roc,


1.Machining rods to get equal weight in all four rods big and small end.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/007.jpg)

2.Checking the straitness of the rods.


3.Complete crank assembly on the balancing machine (a german Schenk balancer).


4.Final cleaning of crank.


5.Checking cam to lifter clerances and end play on camshaft.


6.Adjusting intake centerline.


7.


8.Machining cylinder deck.








9.The machining is done on a fixture where the case is leveld on the mains.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on December 28, 2007, 01:25:13 AM

A non counterweighted crankshaft?! You are a braver man than I!! ;D

What type of pressure plate is that? Not sure if you already know, but Kennedy offers aluminium versions of their pressure plates that are 3lbs lighterthan stock. Something to think about ;)

Good luck!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bruce on December 28, 2007, 05:17:54 AM

Quote from: Roman on December 27, 2007, 19:37:52 PM








The flywheel has no effect on how high an engine can rev. The engine's breathing, cam, valvetrain, etc. are what affect the max rpm.

If the engine is on a dyno that uses a water brake, you won't see the effect of the flywheel since that type of dyno takes static rpm power readings. However, if the engine is in a car which is on an inertial dyno, a light flywheel will show a higher hp reading than the same engine with a heavyflywheel. The resistance provided by an inertial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rollers the rear tires ride on. The dyno measures how fast thecar can accelerate the rollers. A lighter flywheel means there's more power available to accelerate the rollers.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Animal on December 28, 2007, 10:12:48 AM

Thats the biggest crank pulley that i have ever seen ;D

Nice work though,keep us posted dude 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on December 28, 2007, 11:06:28 AM

BTW do i need a high pressure plate for such a 1600 with nearly 115lbs? Or is it also possible to take a good Std new Luk plate with cushin grib disc??Because this combination i have in my 1951ccm...and it functioned,my tires are burning:-))

ByeTom


I would upgrade to a high pressure plate Tom buts thats my 2 cents ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: The Ideaman on December 30, 2007, 17:05:16 PM


I think I'll join the queue as well. I might be interested in you air shift trany as well if you are changing wholesale, or if not if you're prepared to share some info.......... as theshifts sound amazing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I seam to remember it was based on a To#¤ta 5 speed from the Hot VW's feature and it certainly sounded like a 5 speed on theDVD, nice idea I thought with the small cube motor.

Peter

I believe in the HVW's article, it was a To#¤ta rearend. I'd bet he has since updated to a 9 inch ford with profiled aluminum spool and rifle drilled axlesto save weight. The car is super tiny in person. I saw it at the Phoenix national event near the scales in '00. You can almost trip over it. It takeshuge dedication to make a car like this competitive. Brian, what are you going to do with the dragster after the motors are sold?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: drgouk on January 03, 2008, 12:24:58 PM

Quote from: Bruce on December 28, 2007, 05:17:54 AM

Quote from: Roman on December 27, 2007, 19:37:52 PM








The flywheel has no effect on how high an engine can rev. The engine's breathing, cam, valvetrain, etc. are what affect the max rpm.

If the engine is on a dyno that uses a water brake, you won't see the effect of the flywheel since that type of dyno takes static rpm power readings. However, if the engine is in a car which is on an inertial dyno, a light flywheel will show a higher hp reading than the same engine with a heavy flywheel. The resistance providedby an inertial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rollers the rear tires ride on. The dyno measures how fast the car can accelerate the rollers. A lighter flywheel means there'smore power available to accelerate the rollers.

Bruce it depends on weather the water brake engine dyno is computer controled and you can acclerate the engine, Whats called a "power run" not astatic test. THe effect of lighter internal components will show during this type of testing. A superflow 902 or a dts dyno can carryout this type oftesting.













Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on January 11, 2008, 01:41:18 AM

Description of the pictures will follow:

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/019.jpg)Welding of combustion chambers, mainly to get the desired comp ratio because of the small displasement.


(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/021.jpg)A small welding is done on the sparkplug side of the intakeport, the welding is massive to the underside of the head.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/022.jpg)Welded and machined intake flange.


New bigger alu bronze seats installed, alu bronze has the same heat expansion as aluminum and it also transfer heat a lot better than for example steelseats.




Combustion chamber,intake and ex port done, note how close the camber wall is to the valve on the none sparkplug side, this is to get the extensionof the intake port shaped as a venturi.This boosts the flow from 10mm lift and up it also improves the quality of incomming mixture, in my experience,unshrouding the vale at this side will improve the flow on low lifts but will decrease the power.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/030.jpg)The intake port is filled on the long side radius with BELZONA 1111 to get the correct shape and sizes.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/031.jpg)Big Beef has become "SMALL STEAK"

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/032.jpg)I am really suprised of the flow numbers from a 40mm intake valve and 86mm bore.Flownumbers CFM at 25"H2O.lift(mm) Flow(intake) Flow(exhaust)2 42,6 39,54 81,3 73,36 111,4 96,58 136,7 115,510 159,4 130,312 177,5 141,814 188,2 148,516 194,9 152,5

The Port velocity(intake) meassured in the center of the port at the flange is 298ft/s this is where the port is the biggest.

Same measurements on the ex port is 324ft/s.The outlet is only 34mm, going too big on the outlet will slow down the speed and the overall power willdrop.

First I did some tests with an old head to see what intake flow numbers I could reach, when I saw the unexpected high numbers I had to increase theex valve from 32mm to 35,5mm.

RegardsJohannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on January 11, 2008, 13:30:38 PM

I think it is fantastic that a professional like you lets us see your "magic". I'm trying to soak up all the info i can so I'll will be tuned for the duration.This is going to be one special little engine. 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Callook_67 on January 11, 2008, 13:47:15 PM

Quote from: JHU on January 11, 2008, 13:30:38 PM

I think it is fantastic that a professional like you lets us see your "magic". I'm trying to soak up all the info i can so I'll will be tuned for the duration.This is going to be one special little engine. 8)

I feel the same way :) I'm checking this thread allmost every day to see if something new have happend. Johannes, keep on the NICE work.

/Rolf, DK

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on January 11, 2008, 16:11:08 PM

Impressive number's Johannes.




Quick question, do you know the max speed of air, where port is at it's smallest?

ThanksRoar

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: K-Roc on January 11, 2008, 19:24:33 PM

Quote from: n2o on January 11, 2008, 16:11:08 PM

Impressive number's Johannes.

Quick question, do you know the max speed of air, where port is at it's smallest?

ThanksRoar

You use a Pitot Tube to measure localized Velocity on the flow bench,

Johannes, nice work ! I have never heard of Belzonia 1111, is that an Aluminum based Epoxy of some sort? ( I use stuff called Splash Zone from Z-SPar) Reher Morrison sell it.

For your 40mm intake valve, what did you use for the Seat throat ID diameter and Bowl diameter under the seat ? I usually shoot for about 89-90%for the throat and then enlarge the bowl on the High RPM stuff.

Giving away a few secrets there LOL, ie: NOT blowing out the chamber wall to valve seat... I have seen some large increases in Flow bench numberson heads with heavily unshrouded chambers only to suffer in actual power in real life. one of those areas that the flow bench will lie to you unless youknow what you are doing

K-Roc

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: yvre on January 12, 2008, 10:26:14 AM

Man, what a great thread!!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on January 12, 2008, 15:54:22 PM

Hi there,

N2O:The highest speed I recorded was 356ft/s, on the short side radius close to the seat.The velocity is meassured at 28" of depression.

K-Roc:I use the pitot tube as a reference tool just to check velocities in different areas in the port. The seat ID is 90% of the valve dia and the bowl is a little bigger, not as big as I use to make them on an all out race engine.I have also noticed if your engine is valve restricted you can go as big as 93% of valve dia with very good results, the seat has then to be cut to a special shape. The Belzona 1111 is an epoxy that I really do not know wath it contains but it is for me so far the best I have tried, no problems to this point.I gues you can find info on the internet.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on January 12, 2008, 23:39:14 PM

Quote from: yvre on January 12, 2008, 10:26:14 AM

Man, what a great thread!!!

Just what I was thinkin dude ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: haldex201 on January 13, 2008, 12:42:28 PM

I think i am not gonna use my old SF heads 44/37,5 any more. JPM has take them to his flow bench and they had the worse data as the 043JPMheads.You are a fantastisk man Johannes.Look forward too see what data the dyno gives.

Tom V K Copenhagen

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: sonic on January 20, 2008, 18:47:15 PM

Really find this thread interesting . Apart from a couple of engines buildt by JMR ,(thanks John), I always tried to do the work myself . Apart from a 2165 NOS `d engine I felt for going back in time for that "no worries "1776 cc engine . Yesterday I spotted 4 Carrillo rods on sale from Berg`s and that got me hooked .So it went on with ordering a complete crank assembly, ( welded 69,)balanced and ready.On top og this 044 heads , p&p by local man ..

As I am hoping to get the most out of this engine powerwise `good adwise on cam choice is paramount ,I am by no means a proffetional builder but I have gone thrught a lot of Engle Cams , only to be impressed with 3 or 4 . Love the FK 89 , W 110 and 130.

So if anyone have any good adwise regarding cam , compression choice I would be happy..I am espesially concerned about material quality these days . I just love what Johannes Person is doing ,but without his know/how it will always be a case of trial /error for me .





Regards

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Taylor on January 27, 2008, 21:42:56 PM

tell me about this for small powerhouse! 101cu.in.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bruce on January 27, 2008, 23:16:26 PM

Welcome aboard, Taylor!Ya can't just post that without some numbers for us to fantisize about.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on January 27, 2008, 23:50:00 PM

And alittle more info wouldn't go amiss ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: K-Roc on January 28, 2008, 05:45:03 AM

Nice!

I think you may need slightly larger valve springs though ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 08:49:35 AM

Quote from: K-Roc on January 28, 2008, 05:45:03 AM

Nice!

I think you may need slightly larger valve springs though ;D

Nah... that`s the new trend you know - superlight everything. Titanium valves, carbon pushrods + + .... don`t need much pressure to make thingswork.. Oh, and it saves you lifters they say :D

Well, back to topic - It`s been a little while since Johannes reported back and I`m really looking forward to see the progress he has made on hisengine.

Best rgsBB


The engine is sitting in the engine stand now, will run in cam, and comment the pictures later.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/33.jpg)The cylinders are about 20mm shorter than std length.(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/34.jpg)The std 85,5mm pistons has a weight of 568g the JE 86mm weights only 388g, 180g lighter.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/35.jpg)The pushrods are 254mm long, it is not unusuall to have pushrods between 275-285mm in stroker engines.(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/36.jpg)"Mouse Motor" waiting for cam brake in, only with the outer valvespring, the dual OTEVA 75 springs has 165lbs in the seat and 370lbs at 15,5mmlift.The weight of the spring is only 64g.(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/37.jpg)"Beetlbug" the header is tuned to 8000rpm as the rest of the engine, the #2 and #4 tubes will be too long if I place them in the ordonary style.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 11:01:49 AM

Thank you for you update Johannes! I`m very much looking forward to hearing the theory behind the exhaust.

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on January 28, 2008, 21:14:17 PM

higher rews, shorter tubes..


Hi there,THE MOUSE MOTOR is alive!The brake in prossedur of the cam went fine and now the duals are on.Time to do some rpm..........A small video will be posted very soon.Everything sounds promising so far.RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 22:26:11 PM

Congrats with the start up - exciting news!




Thank you for answering my question. I hope you don`t mind me babbling along regarding your header? So the header is tuned to 8000 rpms and if youused a "ordinary" header the #2 and #4 tubes would be too long. But what would be the difference if you compared your custom made header to a"out of the box ordinary" one? Lack of respons? Less hp? Less driveability?

Thanks,BB / Kalle

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on January 28, 2008, 22:54:35 PM

"It's alive!!! Moahahahahaaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rune on January 28, 2008, 23:02:31 PM

Great throttle respons, cool Johannes!! :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: DKK Rick on January 28, 2008, 23:13:44 PM

That thing just snaps! very cool!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rasser on January 28, 2008, 23:49:58 PM

Thumbs up!!!!! Sounds amazing!!

Keep up the great work, it´s so exiciting to follow this build from start to finished engine.

Imagine yourself driving a big V8, stopping for a red light - and then a beetle comes up beside you and starts revving like that ;-) ;-) ;-) thats why iLOVE hot VW´s.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 67-indeed/DVK on January 29, 2008, 00:56:56 AM

awesome vid!!how come it snaps like that? is the flywheel that light?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on January 29, 2008, 01:15:21 AM

Quote from: Rasser DK on January 28, 2008, 23:49:58 PM

Thumbs up!!!!! Sounds amazing!!

Keep up the great work, it´s so exiciting to follow this build from start to finished engine.

Imagine yourself driving a big V8, stopping for a red light - and then a beetle comes up beside you and starts revving like that ;-) ;-) ;-) thats why i LOVE hot VW´s.

couldn't have put it better myself dude - sounds AWSOME ;D ;D ;D

And D I think the light flywheel helps ALOT - I think I might drop Johannes Persson a line about my 1679 mouse motor ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: lawrence on January 29, 2008, 06:49:00 AM

Very cool video clip. Thanks for sharing all of the info on the buildup. Johannes, the rocker arm assembly looks like a quality piece. Who makes it?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on January 29, 2008, 09:17:18 AM

Awsome sound :o!!!Cant wait to hear it rev past 8000rpm ;D ;D


Thank you guys for your input.

Beetlebug:using a too long header will hurt the top end power, the torque curve will drop earlier in the rpm range. If the rest of the engine is tuned at a high rpm a too long header hurts the output a lot.

67-indeed/DVK:It is a combination between light rotating parts and good cylinder pressure that makes an engine snap.

lawrence:Thank you for asking, that is my own product I make those together with my fivestud rockers which fits on the MS230 heads.

The final is comming up with this project and that is ofcourse to put the "Mouse Motor" on the "bullshit detector"(dyno) and see what it makes.Hopefully I will have time to do this in a two week period.

RegardsJohannes Persson

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: drgouk on January 29, 2008, 09:58:38 AM

Awsome Johannes, You do some top work. Very interesting.

Regards




David Gouk

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Torben Alstrup on January 29, 2008, 12:06:55 PM

Hello.Very interesting heads, - among all the other stuff. I´m very interested in seeing how this turns out.I made a set of heads with chambers almost exactly like that, 40 X 34 valves though, and with an oval shape intake port a couple of years back, fora 1680 engine. Cam in the same duration range, but with smaller carbs. Bottom line was that it didnt perform that well. It felt wild on the street, but the BS detector said otherwise. When it was taken apart again, thechambers showed a very inefficient plug side, judging from the carbon patterns. I may have made a bad intake port shape without knowing it. Johannes. If you dont mind sharing, what I/E ratio does it have with the small exhaust valve ? I´m guessing rather low.T

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: sonic on January 29, 2008, 21:23:22 PM

Impressive , but 48 `s must surely be to much , !!!Rgs

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Neil Davies on January 29, 2008, 21:39:26 PM

48's are never too much! ;)

Seriously, I'm guessing that they're choked down quite a bit, but this is obviously no ordinary 1600!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on January 30, 2008, 10:07:17 AM

Small engines need "big" carbs to breath efficiently when you want the higher revs, more so than lager engines.

This is just something I have heard and seen, but can anyone explain why?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: airstuff on January 30, 2008, 13:08:44 PM

where can I get those JE pistons,I need 88mm ones. ???

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rune on January 30, 2008, 17:20:23 PM

Drop Johannes a line, he can hook you up with the pistons you need..

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: kormi on January 30, 2008, 19:01:28 PM

Nice work Johannes! Looking forward to see the dyno-pull :D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on January 30, 2008, 20:49:26 PM

Quote from: cal-look on January 30, 2008, 13:08:44 PM

where can I get those JE pistons,I need 88mm ones. ???

I still have some 88,5 pistons for sale . They where made by Wahl , a company that makes racing pistond for mahle . Very strong and lightweight .Their are only a view miles on them . Kompression height is the same as the 90,5 x 82

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 04:19:15 AM

This is awsome, great job I am a fan of a mouse motor and will follow this closely, I would have really loved to have seen you do this with asingleport. I see you are using non counterweighted crankshaft. How balanced were you able to get the crankshaft down too without thecounterweights?

Here is something for you singleport fans.

Kevin

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/377171.jpg)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: cbigpwr on January 31, 2008, 07:28:14 AM

Quote from: taylor on January 27, 2008, 21:42:56 PM


Hello all, I'm Anthony and I work @ Heads Up Performance. I've been working with Taylor for "way too long" on this small motor project. The objectwas to try to run a bug competively in NHRA SS/CC again. Well, they moved the class to Modified Stock and renamed it SS/FS. Same weight breakand rules, so we didn't get too bummed. Taylor is using a 1967 sedan, so it will have the Klingamann, Mike Smith look, my all time favorite drag cars. The motor is going to be a 94x60, Aluminium rods, roller cam, custom everything 101 inch. The heads are "highly modified" 044 castings with HeadsUp/ Componant Development 1.8:1 rockers. I don't even want to think how much time I have in these little babies. They just hit the bench the otherday, 250 CFM @.700 @ 25" on our Super Flow 600 bench. The valve are 45x36 with really small chambers. Getting compression is really hard on this





motor. We are going to fire the motor up on 48 idf carbs first, and maybe run it down the track, but then switch to fuel injection after. I can't wait to finishthis motor. I've been thinking about this kind of combo for aboiut 10 years, then Taylor came along. He had the same kind of ideas and want to run inNHRA again, so we kind of pooled our thoughts and hopefully the thing runs good enough to make a good showing for VW's in the door car catagoriesagain. More to come later...

Anthony Chicca Heads Up Performance

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on January 31, 2008, 11:32:27 AM

Quote from: JHU on January 28, 2008, 22:54:35 PM

"It's alive!!! Moahahahahaaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related)

Oh what a great result...i still know what my next project is:-)) it sounds like a high rev. motorcycle engine....if i see these low weights of flywheeland pistons.. wow..i am speechless..

RegardsTom


Hi Torben,

Sorry I missed your question.

The I/E ratio is about 78%, if you go back in the thread you will find the flow numbers from 2-16mm lift.

Best regardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on January 31, 2008, 15:28:34 PM

Hello everyone,

I posted this on a thread at STF.I think Johannes is timid......look what he already did with his 1915 cc. Never did he mention this yet, so I do. It is on the JPM website under movies.Listen to it and believe him, it runs and stays together. It is used on the street too.

Frallan

http://www.jpmotorsport.se/

1915 cc close to 250 hp at 9500 rpm. 4 Mikuni carburators. Soon Motec FI and more HP, if I am to believe him. Just listen to it and anyone who has riden this car ( I havent) says that the car is streetable and has lowdown torque. I dont get it but why not?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on January 31, 2008, 16:31:43 PM

Quote from: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 04:19:15 AM

How balanced were you able to get the crankshaft down too without the counterweights?

You can balance a crank with or without counterweights. Think about it... when counterweights are added, there is 2 put on each "side" of thecrank...

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: cameron shorey on January 31, 2008, 17:39:07 PM

Quote from: cbigpwr on January 31, 2008, 07:28:14 AM



Hello all, I'm Anthony and I work @ Heads Up Performance. I've been working with Taylor for "way too long" on this small motor project. The object was to try to run a bugcompetively in NHRA SS/CC again. Well, they moved the class to Modified Stock and renamed it SS/FS. Same weight break and rules, so we didn't get too bummed. Taylor isusing a 1967 sedan, so it will have the Klingamann, Mike Smith look, my all time favorite drag cars. The motor is going to be a 94x60, Aluminium rods, roller cam, custom everything 101 inch. The heads are "highly modified" 044 castings with Heads Up/ ComponantDevelopment 1.8:1 rockers. I don't even want to think how much time I have in these little babies. They just hit the bench the other day, 250 CFM @.700 @ 25" on our Super Flow600 bench. The valve are 45x36 with really small chambers. Getting compression is really hard on this motor. We are going to fire the motor up on 48 idf carbs first, and maybe run it down the track, but then switch to fuel injection after. I can't wait to finish this motor. I've been thinkingabout this kind of combo for aboiut 10 years, then Taylor came along. He had the same kind of ideas and want to run in NHRA again, so we kind of pooled our thoughts andhopefully the thing runs good enough to make a good showing for VW's in the door car catagories again. More to come later...


Hi Anthony,I'm curious. What is the reason for the 1" x 1" bar welded along the bottom of that head? And what are going to do for valve covers? I like the idea of going to 48 IDF footprint EFI. Much more compact.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 20:45:03 PM

Quote from: Zach Gomulka on January 31, 2008, 16:31:43 PM



You can balance a crank with or without counterweights. Think about it... when counterweights are added, there is 2 put on each "side" of the crank...

Can you get the same tolorance in grams with or without counterweights, or can you balance to a smaller gram with counterweights, is maybe theway I should have worded the question.









Kevin


Hello Frallan,

Thank you for your nice words.The dynopull on my homepage made to 9500rpm is the first version of my 1915 project.It produced 224hp/8400rpm, today the same engine with some more R&D to it produce 246hp/8900rpmand keeps good power till 9500rpm.It will be equipped with Motec and my F1 roller throttle bodies for this season, I hope.

Sorry for taking a side step.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bruce on February 01, 2008, 05:28:30 AM

Quote from: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 20:45:03 PM

Quote from: Zach Gomulka on January 31, 2008, 16:31:43 PM



You can balance a crank with or without counterweights. Think about it... when counterweights are added, there is 2 put on each "side" of the crank...

Can you get the same tolorance in grams with or without counterweights, or can you balance to a smaller gram with counterweights, is maybe the way I should have worded thequestion.

Any VW crank can be balanced to 0.0000000g of imbalance. The size of the counterweight has nothing to do with the balancing job. Thecounterweight helps prevents flexing of the crank. The ideal counterweight for a VW crank is much heavier than is physically possible. In otherwords, they are never big enough.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Fast Bug on February 01, 2008, 14:16:11 PM

Quote from: Bruce on February 01, 2008, 05:28:30 AM

Any VW crank can be balanced to 0.0000000g of imbalance. The size of the counterweight has nothing to do with the balancing job. The counterweight helps prevents flexing ofthe crank. The ideal counterweight for a VW crank is much heavier than is physically possible. In other words, they are never big enough.

That's true, I couldn't have said it better

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: cbigpwr on February 01, 2008, 17:21:55 PM

Quote from: cameron shorey on January 31, 2008, 17:39:07 PM

Quote from: cbigpwr on January 31, 2008, 07:28:14 AM



Hello all, I'm Anthony and I work @ Heads Up Performance. I've been working with Taylor for "way too long" on this small motor project. The object was to try to run a bugcompetively in NHRA SS/CC again. Well, they moved the class to Modified Stock and renamed it SS/FS. Same weight break and rules, so we didn't get too bummed. Taylor isusing a 1967 sedan, so it will have the Klingamann, Mike Smith look, my all time favorite drag cars. The motor is going to be a 94x60, Aluminium rods, roller cam, custom everything 101 inch. The heads are "highly modified" 044 castings with Heads Up/ ComponantDevelopment 1.8:1 rockers. I don't even want to think how much time I have in these little babies. They just hit the bench the other day, 250 CFM @.700 @ 25" on our SuperFlow 600 bench. The valve are 45x36 with really small chambers. Getting compression is really hard on this motor. We are going to fire the motor up on 48 idf carbs first, and maybe run it down the track, but then switch to fuel injection after. I can't wait to finish this motor. I've beenthinking about this kind of combo for aboiut 10 years, then Taylor came along. He had the same kind of ideas and want to run in NHRA again, so we kind of pooled our thoughtsand hopefully the thing runs good enough to make a good showing for VW's in the door car catagories again. More to come later...


Hi Anthony,I'm curious. What is the reason for the 1" x 1" bar welded along the bottom of that head? And what are going to do for valve covers? I like the idea of going to 48 IDF footprint EFI. Much more compact.

That is the unfinished valve cover rail. It will be profiled later. We will be running either the Autocraft cast valve covers, or a light-weight sheet metalversion. Haven't decided yet. The IDF carb is the "Bastard Child" of the Weber line-up. Properly modified they can flow MORE than a 48 IDA. The onlyway an IDA can beat it is by boring it bigger. But even an IDF can be bored to 50mm. The manifold package of the IDF is also superior to the IDA. Ithas a straighter shot. No bends equal more flow. Plus the IDF has a better idle circut. To Many pluses for the IDF, I wish they still made them. Withthat said, I think the injection will still run better than the IDF. More power under the curve=better E.T.s Hopefully!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on February 01, 2008, 18:41:16 PM

Are these the new style Autocraft rockers ?

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: richie on February 01, 2008, 19:25:39 PM

Quote from: Udo on February 01, 2008, 18:41:16 PM

Are these the new style Autocraft rockers ?

Udo

Udo,it meantions in the first post by Anthony they are component devolopement 1.8/1 rockers :)

cheers richie

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on February 02, 2008, 09:20:47 AM











Hi Richie

Autocraft has 1.8 i think :)

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: cbigpwr on February 05, 2008, 17:04:05 PM

Quote from: Udo on February 02, 2008, 09:20:47 AM

Hi Richie

Autocraft has 1.8 i think :)

Udo

Same rockers. They are Componant Development rockers. They are the company that makes the heads and rockers. Roger @ Heads Up and Mike @Autocraft are parteners on the progect (put the money up for the project). Both Heads Up and Autocraft sell the same parts. We have heads, rockers(1.55, 1.7, and 1.8) valve covers. Manifolds are coming soon.

These rockers change the geometry of the pushrod in relation to the lifter. The pushrod and the lifter are now straight in-line. I don't think this motor(Taylors 1600) would be so sucessful if it wasn't for these rockers. As you cut the lenghth of the motor down (bring the head closer to the case) thisangle on the pushrod gets more extreme.

Anthony Heads Up Performance

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Casey on February 05, 2008, 18:26:00 PM

Sshhhheeeessshhhhh Anthony, I never saw those babies over there! How long do build a duplicate set? 1 week? Come on I know you can pull it off!This will be the second time. ;) ;D. You da man! I'm VERY close by the way. Going in on Fri. Later Casey.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 04:56:12 AM

That motor is awesome.When I first got my bug I was asking about possibilities of building a 1600cc in stock bore/stroke form but I was told it wouldbe a waste of time,build a stroker or go home...I love the fact these motors can rev high.I like that part, but how reliable are they with the new technology?I read this whole thread, and seen thatback then they grenaded after a certain amount of time but was that with just strictly racing them?If I was to build or attempt to build one, it wouldbe a daily driver for me so would that be bad or good?I like the idea of a high strung 1600cc with 10:1 cr, capable of reving to at least 7k.Id be happyif it made 110-130hp , after all these are small mouse motors.Would they be as quick as the strokers being they have less torque?Sorry about all thequestions I'm just really curious about thinking outside the box since I dont get along well inside the box... ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 17:15:52 PM

Can you guys tell me what its costing you guys to build a mouse motor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High revs soundcool to me..LOL


Quote from: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 17:15:52 PM

Can you guys tell me what its costing you guys to build a mouse motor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High revs sound cool to me..LOL

An engine like this would be not so expensive . 110-120 hp is easy to get . Depends on what new parts you want , case , heads ..

Udo


Quote from: Udo on February 06, 2008, 19:18:21 PM

Quote from: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 17:15:52 PM

Can you guys tell me what its costing you guys to build a mouse motor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High revs sound cool to me..LOL

An engine like this would be not so expensive . 110-120 hp is easy to get . Depends on what new parts you want , case , heads ..

Udo

I was told it would be a waste of time an money, is this true?Also I notice you guys use lightweight parts, Ive looked a few up like Jet rods,7lbflywheels, there really pricey.Can I get away with a 12lb flywheel,lightweight lifters, and whatever else I can get on a budget.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on February 07, 2008, 09:32:14 AM

To get 120 horses you don't need a single lightweight part. You can get away with stock rods and a Mahle 94mm cylinder kit. What you do need is apair of nice heads in combination with a good cam. 8)

I forgot to mention that I was talking about a 1915, or a "non stroker"


Quote from: JHU on February 07, 2008, 09:32:14 AM

To get 120 horses you don't need a single lightweight part. You can get away with stock rods and a Mahle cylinder kit. What you do need is a pair of nice heads in combinationwith a good cam. 8)

That is all !! You are right Jon

Udo









Post by: Project_X on February 08, 2008, 03:19:09 AM

Yup Ive been told many times its all in the heads, but was just curious.Whats it costing on average to build these little mouse motors(ie1600,1603,1641,1679,1699)?Trying my best to stay on topic (sorry, Im just amazed about these little mouse motors)but from what your saying I canbuild any of those sizes up to 110-120hp.Also Ive read posts before that these motors dont make enough power to move until after 4000rpms, I hopethats not true because I want one of these for a street motor.Thinking maybe 40IDF's,FK8 cam with 1.4:1 rockers, 1.5" merged header, 044 headsfrom CB Performance, and some type of ignition.


IMO, you are looking in the wrong direction.The most reliable hp is displacement. Getting 120hp out of a 1600 NA is not easy. Don't believe anyone that says it is.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Torben Alstrup on February 08, 2008, 10:53:59 AM

In my time I have built a couple of these small engine with that hp range. 120 hp out of a 1600 cc for daily use is stretching it, witout sayingimpossible. 1680 cc. with 117 - 120 usable hp is not a problem. The few extra cc. helps making it driveable at all rpm. There are a couple of solutions.I have my own of course. ::)

I have a 1600 cc 110 hp version that works very well on the street, and a (rpm limited) 100 hp versoin built mainly out of stock parts. The key is tomake the engine pull torque soon enough to make it decent in the lower rpm. Its absolutely possible, but you have to think a little different thanmainstream. But from there to JPM´s or Autocraft´s heads & engines is a giant leap.

T


I have modified my post as it was unclear at one point, I was talking about a "non-stroker" (1915) not a 1600.Thats why I mention the cylinder kit.

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on February 08, 2008, 17:44:12 PM

My daily driver 1600 went 14.8's @ 88mph. The car was light (noisy), and had close 3-4. But it was a simple and relatively inexpensive combo thatworked very well. Someday Ill build a "clone" with the new tricks Ive learned :)




I agree with that.For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.






Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motorthat nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on February 09, 2008, 09:17:25 AM

Quote from: Project_X on February 09, 2008, 06:54:10 AM





Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to bequicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

expensive.....Heads and pistons are the most expensive parts...i think within all parts,+ his own working time it will be 4000-5000€ for this engine....

ByeTom



















For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both makevery good street horepower .

Udo









For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo

ok, cool thanks, also anyone know what 4000-5000€ is in American money by chance?LOL

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on February 09, 2008, 19:26:35 PM

4000 € to 5000€ is 5700 usd to 7250 USD according to international rates of today.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 23:11:32 PM







There's nothing wrong with wanting to do something different. But when you are on a tight budget, you won't get there.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 23:28:09 PM



Udo

A 2 liter is gonna cost you $250 more to build than a 1776. What's the big deal about that?

Why don't you let us in on how easy and cheap it is to build a 1600 that outputs more than double the stock hp.


JPM built this engine to test what could be done with cheap part in combination with know how. As he does his own heads this has for him been avery cheap, as for the rest of us we have to add the cost of having a pair of head built.


5700 bucks to build a 1603cc to get 176hp? Is that what your saying it would cost to build that motor? JPM is in Sweden right? So if I got heads fromhim and that exhaust it would cost double since IM in Florida...umm holy crap LOL


Quote from: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 23:28:09 PM



Udo

A 2 liter is gonna cost you $250 more to build than a 1776. What's the big deal about that?

Why don't you let us in on how easy and cheap it is to build a 1600 that outputs more than double the stock hp.

Where do you get those cheap cranks , clearance the case ... ?

Everybody has his own experience , i only work with good quality cranks like scat , okrasa , gene berg .

Udo


CB sells a perfectly good forged chromoly crank for $289.

Why don't you tell us how much you would charge for a turn-key 1600 that makes 120hp?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: stealth67vw on February 11, 2008, 01:36:18 AM

Quote from: Udo













Where do you get those cheap cranks , clearance the case ... ?

Hard to justify spending $150-200 for DPR or DMS stock c/w crank when you can find cheap Chinese 78-84 strokers for $199.00. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=388182



CB sells a perfectly good forged chromoly crank for $289.

Why don't you tell us how much you would charge for a turn-key 1600 that makes 120hp?

A longblock would be something about 3000 euros , depends on what new parts you want . And a 2 liter starts at 4000 .

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on February 11, 2008, 22:46:53 PM

Hi there!

Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see.

POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpmTORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs)

The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will gobigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated maxpower rpm(8000).I will post a video later.

Talk to you laterJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on February 11, 2008, 23:02:59 PM

Holy crap!!!!!! :o :o :o :oto me, that is taking it to the next level!I`m going insane here, I desperatly want to hear the motor run, please post a clip off the dyno run NOW ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;DI`m speachless!your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on February 12, 2008, 00:04:06 AM

That is awesome. I never dreamed you could get those kind of numbers out of 1600cc. Even the torque figure looks very respectable. If you could, Idlove to see a dyno graph to show the power and torque curves.

What is the compression ratio??

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on February 12, 2008, 00:57:37 AM

"your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm"

Exactly dude ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Torben Alstrup on February 12, 2008, 01:04:15 AM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on February 11, 2008, 22:46:53 PM

Hi there!



The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the mainventuries, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


:o AAAALLRIIIGHT !!!! Impressive numbers. Where does it begin to make power ?Torben


Johannes told me on the phone tonight that the engine has a very wide power band, in fact he compares it with a Japanese motorcycle. ;D ;D ;D ;D

I knew from past experiences with JPM that he delivers when he says he's going to do something, but I confess to having thought that this was a farstretch. The man knows his stuff!

Can't wait for that video!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on February 12, 2008, 02:23:16 AM





A little bit of JPM "bragging" ...I like to brag about you Johannes. I subscribe to some Formula one and High tech racing magazines, in them I could read last year that the supercar manufacturer Koenigsegg are gettingin to racing. Not just world record runs but real racing.It was mentioned about some few companies that would assist them in further development of the car and on the engine company, JPM wasmentioned.I like that.

Anyway, Congratulations Johannes to the new Mouse concept! Nice move, nice touch to the all of us in the ACVW comunity.



Hi there!



The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the mainventuries, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


Thats awesome!Now send it to Or. Florida and I'll be happy to test it in my bug....course I wouldnt ship it back to you ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: eugene on February 12, 2008, 04:36:07 AM

I think that Johannes build has shown what the modern understanding of flow, chamber shape, compression ratios, part limitations, coupled toengineering and practical knowledge really mean. The beauty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have somewhat rejected asunworthy. The hot roders spirit we admire, is back with such builds. Bravo!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on February 12, 2008, 09:07:10 AM

Quote from: eugene on February 12, 2008, 04:36:07 AM

I think that Johannes build has shown what the modern understanding of flow, chamber shape, compression ratios, part limitations, coupled to engineering and practicalknowledge really mean. The beauty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have somewhat rejected as unworthy. The hot roders spirit we admire, is back with suchbuilds. Bravo!

I think you hit the nail on the head with your first post here on The Lounge and I totally agree - congrats with the impressive results Johannes!

Best rgsKalle

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tobi/DFL on February 12, 2008, 09:59:45 AM

I´m simply overwhelmed by those numbers! Thanks a lot for sharing so much knowledge with us, Johannes!

Tobi

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on February 12, 2008, 12:50:14 PM

I can only repeat...AWESOME....117 HP/L.......

Tom

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Trond Dahl on February 12, 2008, 13:26:58 PM

Don't ask why I didn't do this before, but the info and result on this thread is worth a lot! but the least I can do is make this thread a sticky.Congratulations Johannes with the result (so far)

Trond:-)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on February 12, 2008, 16:01:57 PM

Some years back, I read in HotVW about an engine builder contest. This was won by Pat Downs from CB-Performance.

I do not recal the numbers from that contest, but with 117hp/liter (1603ccm) I would imagine that this mouse motor would have been noticed.

Would we see 120hp/liter when the chokes is optimized??


Id love to have a motor like this but I dont think my budget would allow it.MMMM... could you imagin taking that motor in a bug to the strip andbeating a v8 LOL or some japanese car?So Johannes how long would this motor last?Also when are the 86mm pistons going to be available in America for us to use ;) ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jim Ratto on February 12, 2008, 17:52:24 PM





Johannes, congratulations on your accomplishment, it is great to see somebody achieve such a high specific output from a VW, especially one thataccomodates so many factory-style parts (like the cylinder heads). I was enrolled in a camshaft-theory class back in 2000, and was working on aproject of 2332cc to make 100hp/liter and run on street, but never achieved my goal (I think 100hp/liter with large single cylinder displacement wouldbe too difficult to do with VW-style heads, etc, maybe things have changed...) If you don't mind sharing, when you se the intake centerline on your motor, where did you set it to? On street motors with 260' + @.050" I have beensetting them @ 104 ATDC, because I was taught this increases throttle response and build cylinder pressure faster. I don't have hard data saying thisis what to do, only what I was taught. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on the cam in your engine, and where you set it up at?

Again, congratulations. :)

Jim Ratto


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9868ihgGVk8The dyno pull is from 2500rpm to 8500rpm in fourth gear (60-190km/h or 37,5mph-118,75mph).

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/039.jpg)Today I just had to finish the "Mouse Motor" project and changed the main venturies from 37 to 39mm.The engine responded really good with an improvement from 138,8-143,3kW or 188,7-194,9hp the torque increased from 191-195Nm (138-141lbs).The attiude of this engine is really something, nice and smoth at idle and kicks really hard if you want it to.

There would probably be some more improvements with bigger venturies but as it is now there is no bog or hassitation between low and high circuitand as this engine is to be used on the street I prefere to have it like this.When using too big venturies you often notice a hassitation between lowand high circuit even sometimes with the third progression hole modification.

The purple curve is engine power and the green curve is wheel power.

Thank you guys for all possitive input and if you have questions do not hassitate to ask.

We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rasser on February 12, 2008, 22:03:11 PM

IMFUCKINGPRESSIVE!!!!

Amazing numbers Johannes, congrats.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Kiel on February 12, 2008, 22:05:39 PM

Super..................

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: JS on February 12, 2008, 22:23:37 PM

Looking forward to see this one on SCC!!! ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dirk zeyen on February 12, 2008, 22:30:10 PM

restpect!!!

you are the "head-guru" ;D so much flow with small valves! i think the right combination of all the engineparts makes the "little difference".

dirk zeyen


hi Again, Johannes....

also, aside from your thoughts on cam timing, what did you select for emulsion tubes and jets for this last dyno session?

Thanks,

Jim

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on February 12, 2008, 23:13:07 PM

I knew these little "mouse motors" could make the BIG numbers ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: eugene on February 13, 2008, 02:28:54 AM

How goes the old saying about displacement? ;)

I have a question for Johannes (or others) if you don't mind to share. How do you determine the intake and exhaust tuning length (second and thirdorder)? I have tried to use a equation from an engineering book but the numbers you gave in some other post didn't wont to fall out. I know that thethe variables are the cam intake/exhaust duration, rpm-time, gas velocity and speed of sound but i apparently i'm missing something.

Congrats Johannes on the results. Outstanding work!




Awesome just awesome...I love it.Any idea what this baby would do at the track just for kicks?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on February 13, 2008, 06:35:38 AM

.....121.58hp/liter...

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on February 13, 2008, 07:45:13 AM


Awesome just awesome...I love it.Any idea what this baby would do at the track just for kicks?

JHU told me that JPM had done some calculations with the number he had from the first dyno pull where it "only" made 188hp ;D and with a 730kgcar(included driver) the calculation said 11.97 on the 1/4 mile. Thats pretty fast with a 1603ccm!But thats just theory, the only way to find out is torace it 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on February 13, 2008, 09:00:30 AM

Once again Johannes, just awsome!Looking at the photo of the power graph, it seems to be two small bumps in the curve. Is this where the rpm is between 1th and 2nd order, 2nd and3th order? or is there another reason?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 10:38:22 AM

Hi Jim,The camshaft is a fk45@108 and I dailed it 105deg intake centerline, too much advance will hurt the the overall performance because the exhaustchanges too in a negative way and at a point the intakevalve will close too early and you lose a lot of top end power.I use to look at the closing pointfor the intake valve regarding to how good the heads are and the displacement of the engine, too late closing point will hurt the all overperformance.If your heads are good you can close the intake valve earlier without losing top end power because the heads will still keep the VE highas the rpm goes up and your midrange will be superior.So from my experience the hardest part in chosing a cam is to determine when the intake valveshould close, when you have desided the closing point chose duration so the intake valve does not hit the piston at tdc including the depth of yourvalvepockets.Hopefully you see my point.

With the 39mm venturies the mains are 160,air180 and still F7 E-tubes, at low and midrange the A/F is too fat that is why there are small bumpsaround 4-5k rpm, maybe with F-16 or F-9 E-tubes I can get rid of those.The F-7 E-tube is a very fat tube at low and mid range the F-16 or 9 is a lotleaner.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on February 13, 2008, 13:08:25 PM

There is something very appealing with these small capacity engines. This might be optimised far beyond what you can buy of the shelf today, but stillI think it opens our minds to see the possibilities out there. First of all the Weber 48 is a HUGE performance carburator to this engine, also the"mandatory" counterweighted crank is stiffer. I bet there is a golden halfway between, cost physical size, performance and COOLNESS, and this enginecan't be very far from it.

40x35,5 valves and 195 horses from 1603 cc?! I want more of these threads!! ;)


195hp...very impressive, how much more are gonna go? LOL

For the pistons, if one was to build one similar to this motor or close could the Porsche 356 86mm pistons be used?Also since a 7lb flywheel cost700.00 here where I'm at, could a 11-12.5lb lightened flywheel be used?And could any head porter do a 043 head like this with the welds, and the FK45 cam, you have is a engle cam or was it a modified one.I seen on thefirst page you have a cam with 2 profiles I guess, if I understand that, not sure.Thanks


Hi Eugene,I use to tune on third order up to 8000rpm and then the second above 8000rpm.Using the second order on low rpm gives you very long manifolds which many times decreases the total flow of the intake system.

Third order:2460000/rpm=total intake length(mm).Second order:3350000/rpm=total intake length(mm).

The length on the "Mouse Motor"s manifold are about 15mm too long from calculation that is one reason it peaks at lower rpm.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on February 13, 2008, 15:36:53 PM

Holy crap!

So let me get this straight... is this 195 wheel horsepower??? or is it corrected flywheel horsepower??




And also, whats the compression???

Good work! ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Roman on February 13, 2008, 15:47:47 PM

Impressive to say the least. It is corrected flywheel horsepower. The rear wheel horsepower is "only" 180.5!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rune on February 13, 2008, 15:52:46 PM

Quote from: Zach Gomulka on February 13, 2008, 15:36:53 PM

And also, whats the compression???

The original spec list on page two says a compression of 12,0:1. Not sure if this is what it ended up with.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on February 13, 2008, 16:42:00 PM

"We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this.

RegardsJohannes"

No - we`re lucky to have you around sharing you knowlegde with the rest of us. Truly amazing and insipiring - thanks Johannes!

Best rgsKalle


Hi Zack, The comp ratio ended up at 12,32:1 and the power is corrected(DIN) at flywheel(as Roman said) about 1% less than the late SAE hp.It is thanks to welded chambers otherwise it would be really hard to achive.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Harry/FDK on February 13, 2008, 17:29:26 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on February 13, 2008, 16:42:00 PM


RegardsJohannes"


Best rgsKalle

ABSOLUTELY!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Airspeed on February 13, 2008, 17:45:47 PM


(http://www.v-dubs.no/jhu/project/jpm/039.jpg)if you have questions do not hassitate to ask.

Johannes,I am very curieus about the small (gearbox and driveline) loss you have over the flywheel hp: Only 11.4 kW on a total of 143.3 kW! Thats just 8% :oThe 132.4 is at the rear wheel, so with a 'normal' loss of about 15-18% the FWhp would have been (is) even (much) more... ;D

Do you have extremely good gearbox oil or something that explains this?

Tnx,Walter


Quote from: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 10:38:22 AM

Hi Jim,The camshaft is a fk45@108 and I dailed it 105deg intake centerline, too much advance will hurt the the overall performance because the exhaust changes too in a negative wayand at a point the intakevalve will close too early and you lose a lot of top end power.I use to look at the closing point for the intake valve regarding to how good the heads areand the displacement of the engine, too late closing point will hurt the all over performance.If your heads are good you can close the intake valve earlier without losing top endpower because the heads will still keep the VE high as the rpm goes up and your midrange will be superior.So from my experience the hardest part in chosing a cam is todetermine when the intake valve should close, when you have desided the closing point chose duration so the intake valve does not hit the piston at tdc including the depth ofyour valvepockets.Hopefully you see my point.

With the 39mm venturies the mains are 160,air180 and still F7 E-tubes, at low and midrange the A/F is too fat that is why there are small bumps around 4-5k rpm, maybe with F-16 or F-9 E-tubes I can get rid of those.The F-7 E-tube is a very fat tube at low and mid range the F-16 or 9 is a lot leaner.

RegardsJohannes

Thanks Johannes, interesting way to look at cam timing. I forget the lesson I was taught about cams, but there was a hierarchy of valve timingevents that related to the 4 strokes of the motor.... I think # 1 event considered, according to class was exhaust opening, for "blowdown" but I don'tremember, so obviously, I don't use that lesson for cam decision. The thoughts behind the intake center @ 104 was to get valve full open at pistonposition of fastest acceleration. I have noticed something with FK45 (I run same cam in my 94mm x 78mm, 541cc per cyl) that I haven't experiencedwith other cams, in engine response, and I don't know if it is my timing of cam or the cam itself.







A topic for another thread. :)

Jim

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: nicolas on February 13, 2008, 20:29:21 PM

very nice accomplishment. hats off for you!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Trond Dahl on February 13, 2008, 20:35:28 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on February 13, 2008, 16:42:00 PM


RegardsJohannes"


Best rgsKalle

I second that, the forum is just the facilitator... Its the people that make it what it is... so thank YOU guys

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Gabetion2000 on February 15, 2008, 04:10:30 AM

Hello everybody, I am a first time poster in the cal look lounge. And I have to say that this forum is awesome. Especially this thread. I have alway been interested in mouse motors ,and planned on building one in the future. Awesome info guys. Keep it up.

Gabe ScottVentura,CA USA


Quote from: Gabetion2000 on February 15, 2008, 04:10:30 AM

Hello everybody, I am a first time poster in the cal look lounge. And I have to say that this forum is awesome. Especially this thread. I have alway been interested in mouse motors ,and planned on building one in the future. Awesome info guys. Keep it up.


Hi Gabe and welcome to The Lounge! Don`t forget to keep the rest of us in the loop when you start building your mouse engine.

Best rgsBeetleBug



When you have decided the closing point chose duration so the intake valve does not hit the piston at tdc including the depth of your valve pockets.

Could you explain this for us dummies, Johannes?


Hello there,

JHU, I ment that you should open the intake valve early because you want as much flow available as possible when the piston accelerates down(moreflow area under the curve), but there are mekanical limitations you have to deal with(valve hitting piston).I decided to cloce the intake valve 57deg abdc @ 0,05", then the fk45 became a good choise together with 1,55:1 rockers.I am close to 6mm lift @ tdc so the valvepockets are pritty deep.Maybe I am not clear enought ,please let me know.

RegadsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on February 15, 2008, 12:39:20 PM

That helped quite a bit, thanks. :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Eddie on February 15, 2008, 17:09:50 PM

Damn I speechless and that doesn t happen that often.Very very cool and that with stock parts appart from the pistons........Where can I bring mine 1600............ ;)


Quote from: Gabetion2000 on February 15, 2008, 04:10:30 AM

Hello everybody,







I am a first time poster in the cal look lounge. And I have to say that this forum is awesome. Especially this thread. I have alway been interested in mouse motors ,and planned on building one in the future. Awesome info guys. Keep it up.


Wow... a neighbor...I'm in Simi.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on February 18, 2008, 22:35:49 PM

Johannes,

As suggested on here many times already great effort with the motor, and some really interesting insight, but best of all, it’s great to see someoneactually doing it, rather than just talking about it.

I was wondering what fuel you were using as I see you will be running the motor on the street with the CR set at 12.3:1, also how do you find thecooling with such a high CR on the street?

Thanks again for you part in a great thread

Peter


Hi Peter,Good to hear that you like the project.I use our best pump gas "V-Power" from Shell gas stations, Shell says 99 octane.When you are using a smaller diameter piston the heat transfer thrue the piston rings to the cylinder are better than with a bigger piston.The area of a circle increases by the square, the circumference does not, that is why a smaller piston can use higher CR.I always use the cooling fan from a 1303 bug then you need a really good oil cooler with electrical fan and all your cooling tins has to fit to 100%, noleakage.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Harry/FDK on February 19, 2008, 17:48:43 PM

Fantastic Project Johannes, Youre a hard working artist !BTW, maybe you have seen the Topic: Drilling Your Heads (Cooling Fins), by me dummy. Do You have experimented with this ? Or maybe share yourthoughts ?

Thanks,Harry

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: sonic on February 22, 2008, 18:40:35 PM

Its nearly unbeliveble Johannes Could sombody go there to witness this , longlivity and torque must be hurting , live in Baastad from time to time ,like to visit ...Its more effective than a 1000 RR bike , like whatch that..RegErich."lot more than impressed"...

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: speedwell on February 22, 2008, 22:07:46 PM

how does it cost for a similar motor ??? just simple question ::)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on February 23, 2008, 02:38:28 AM

Yeah Johannes lets have a rough idea of hours/cost involved ??? ;) :)

I would REALLY like to know how many hours went into those heads ;) :)


Hi there,

I will soon post a list with the parts used in the "Mouse Motor" and prices.

Monkiboy, I have spent between 40 to 50 hours on the heads from start to finish including flow tests and welding.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Type1/DVK on February 26, 2008, 09:48:56 AM

looking forward to it! (and many others i think ;)) a whole week in the heads :o





Hi there,

I will soon post a list with the parts used in the "Mouse Motor" and prices.

Monkiboy, I have spent between 40 to 50 hours on the heads from start to finish including flow tests and welding.

RegardsJohannes

Hi JohannesFor German street use i would relocate the spark plugs . ;)

Udo


Hello,Here is the parts list.Most of the parts are from CB performance but some from CSP in Germany, CSP in Sweden and JPM.

IDA carb kit 1099,95Heads 043 bare pair 211,9CB Ti valves 503,6OTEVA 75 valve springs 185JPM ti retainer 173JPM rockers 1046Push rods 49,95Push rod tubes 167 CSPCam 104Lifters 22,95Cam gears Magnum 172 CSPBearings 39,85Oil pump 27,95Pump cover full flow 28JE pistons 1206Cylinder kit 165Fuel pump block off 4,95009 dist 109,95Compufire 63,95Cables 27,95Valve covers 12,95Clips 5,95Gasket kit 9,95Oil sealing flywheel 3,95Clutch disc 29,95Pressure plate Kennedy 180mm 179Flywheel bolt 56Deep sump 105Lash caps 12,95Pully 18,95Pully bolt 4,95Cyl studs 119Header S&S 1 5/8 332Old engine 155

Total parts 6454 USD.

Hopefully I did not forget too many parts.

The time I spent on the total build is aprox 100 hours(night hours).

RegardsJohannes


Nice of you to take the time to come up and share the list... thanks Johannes

off topic, I am sorry, but could you read my thread in Cal Look section about Porsche valve timing characteristics, powerband, etc?

here it is: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=4395.0

Thank you

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: richie on February 27, 2008, 05:48:43 AM



IDA carb kit 1099,95Heads 043 bare pair 211,9CB Ti valves 503,6OTEVA 75 valve springs 185JPM ti retainer 173JPM rockers 1046Push rods 49,95Push rod tubes 167 CSPCam 104





Lifters 22,95Cam gears Magnum 172 CSPBearings 39,85Oil pump 27,95Pump cover full flow 28JE pistons 1206Cylinder kit 165Fuel pump block off 4,95009 dist 109,95Compufire 63,95Cables 27,95Valve covers 12,95Clips 5,95Gasket kit 9,95Oil sealing flywheel 3,95Clutch disc 29,95Pressure plate Kennedy 180mm 179Flywheel bolt 56Deep sump 105Lash caps 12,95Pully 18,95Pully bolt 4,95Cyl studs 119Header S&S 1 5/8 332Old engine 155




RegardsJohannes

Wow,there some pricey parts in there for a little 1600 :D Johannes which lifters did you use at only 22.95? cheers richie,uk


Hi Richie,The lifters are std VW part # 1512 at CB.

RegardsJohannes


Quote from: Jim Ratto on February 26, 2008, 22:36:22 PM

Nice of you to take the time to come up and share the list... thanks Johannes

off topic, I am sorry, but could you read my thread in Cal Look section about Porsche valve timing characteristics, powerband, etc?

here it is: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=4395.0

Thank you

2,0 ltr and 185 hp is the same we had on our last Käfercup circuit engiens . They worked good and the whole race season without problems

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on February 29, 2008, 15:39:50 PM

Quote from: richie,uk on February 27, 2008, 05:48:43 AM



IDA carb kit 1099,95Heads 043 bare pair 211,9CB Ti valves 503,6OTEVA 75 valve springs 185JPM ti retainer 173JPM rockers 1046Push rods 49,95Push rod tubes 167 CSPCam 104Lifters 22,95Cam gears Magnum 172 CSPBearings 39,85Oil pump 27,95Pump cover full flow 28JE pistons 1206Cylinder kit 165Fuel pump block off 4,95009 dist 109,95Compufire 63,95Cables 27,95Valve covers 12,95Clips 5,95Gasket kit 9,95Oil sealing flywheel 3,95Clutch disc 29,95Pressure plate Kennedy 180mm 179Flywheel bolt 56Deep sump 105Lash caps 12,95Pully 18,95Pully bolt 4,95Cyl studs 119Header S&S 1 5/8 332Old engine 155









RegardsJohannes

Wow,there some pricey parts in there for a little 1600 :D Johannes which lifters did you use at only 22.95? cheers richie,uk

Are lifters normaly expencive?

In my engines I use STD lifters (made in mexico), and when used with easy cams (nice ramp open/close) like my fk-98, I do not feel the need foranything else. (BTW its a race engine, maybe street engines need other types of lifter)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on March 03, 2008, 09:32:18 AM

Thats exactly it n2o, with K800's you don't need to gamble on lifters, sticking to VW's own.... so am I, until I learn ;DAnd a race engine has it easy compared to a street engine...

CHECK out the mouse in the house!!

http://www.griebel.blogspot.com/ (http://www.griebel.blogspot.com/)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 67-indeed/DVK on March 04, 2008, 00:44:28 AM

how about web cams? i read you can't use std lifters with those... ???

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Harry/FDK on March 05, 2008, 16:39:51 PM

Webcam with SLR treated Lube-A-Lobes works absolutely perfect for me. (Aircooled.net)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on March 06, 2008, 09:09:27 AM

Quote from: 67-indeed/DVK on March 04, 2008, 00:44:28 AM

how about web cams? i read you can't use std lifters with those... ???

Why not?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 67-indeed/DVK on March 06, 2008, 17:20:51 PM

no idea, that's why i'm asking.lately i've come to a conclusion that stock lifters aren't that bad after all ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on March 06, 2008, 22:38:32 PM

As long as you have enough spring pressure I do think every lifter is good enough. To little and every lifter would pit - no matter what.

Best rgsBB

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Breaker Breaker on March 07, 2008, 10:38:25 AM

Having just read this thread while eating my cereal at work , i have a massive grin on my face.

Well done guys !!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: n2o on March 07, 2008, 20:30:10 PM

Quote from: 54caldub on March 07, 2008, 10:38:25 AM

Having just read this thread while eating my cereal at work , i have a massive grin on my face.

Well done guys !!!

That must have been a big bowl of cereal.. ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Breaker Breaker on March 11, 2008, 12:45:04 PM

yeah went soggy at the end :)

Its a great thread , spoken to my engine builder his voice piked up when i said fancy doing a mouse motor :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Roman on May 30, 2008, 19:28:16 PM

I was talking to Johannes on tuesday and he was working on the new car with the mouse motor. He planned to be ready to Bug Run in Sweden nextweekend.Can't wait to see it!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on May 31, 2008, 00:34:45 AM





Yes, its going to be some Mouse racing over there!! COOL!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rocket-Racing on May 31, 2008, 00:42:20 AM

Cool! Can't wait to see it lined up aginst a big cc car and see how it performs. "Are you a mouse or a man?" ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on May 31, 2008, 00:49:42 AM

Wonder how much he can shave of his ET with a piece of cheese at the end of the strip?? :P

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rocket-Racing on May 31, 2008, 02:03:31 AM

He only has one car to fear..

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Per Ericson on June 05, 2008, 07:37:11 AM

Some pictures taken yesterday at Meca Raceway in Malmö(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0048.jpg)Nice interior(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0049.jpg)The mouse motor(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0052.jpg)(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0056.jpg)(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0059.jpg)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on June 05, 2008, 08:15:13 AM

The mouse is alive!! Congratulations with your new car Johannes!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Mags on June 05, 2008, 08:30:09 AM

Congratulation with new Car Johannes,se you this weekend.

Magne

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on June 05, 2008, 09:42:41 AM

.


.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on June 05, 2008, 09:46:13 AM

Now that IS indeed a mouse engine! Congrats with the time slip and the new car!

Best rgsBB


WOW!! 7.45 that is what... a 11.90 or something?See you at the track at BugRun!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: JS on June 05, 2008, 22:03:09 PM

Congratulations with car, timeslip and engine! AMAZING! See you this weekend. :)


Hi there,Hope you all are doing well.

The day before yesterday I went to Mecca raceway, an 1/8 mile racetrack, with my new car and the Mouse Motor.First pass 7,56s/144.46km/h(90,28mph) second pass 7,45s/146,7km/h(91,68mph), the track conditions were very good.

I am now preparing for Bug Run this weekend, hope to see some of you there.

BTW I still have a Big Grin from ear to ear in my face.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on June 06, 2008, 10:41:03 AM



WOW that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL its really good to see a mouse motor running number like that - is this theengine you built and showed on here resently ???

I might be dropping you a line soon about building MY "mouse motor" ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on June 06, 2008, 23:16:04 PM

Hi Johannes!

The big grin is on my face too.Congratulations!!!This is fun. Apart from the engine I do love the interior of your car. I intend to do the same of putting in some beutifying stuff.It comes out very good.I have my Tetra Pak friend with an ugly blue Chevelle runing 10-12 rounds down the strip last Wednesday (503 cui / 550 hp injected daily driver,7.70s) and he was very impressed with these beetles. I guess it was Niclas in Herbie 53 in the other lane?He was so excited about it all that he picked up the phone and briefed me long distance.I am very proud on your behalf. Good luck at BG.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 58vw on June 08, 2008, 18:34:42 PM

awesome job....very nice car to...congrats

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: christophe on June 08, 2008, 20:18:49 PM

Well,I guess I'm the first back on the lounge after BugRun.So here is the news.Johannes made a 11,58s run on saturday!!!!Just AMAZING!!!And the car is soooo nice too!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jesse/DVK on June 08, 2008, 21:04:08 PM

A very nice car!

In the setup list I see you're using a 180mm flywheel. I'm thinking of buildling myself an engine but everyone advices me a 200mm flywheel. Why didyou choose for a 180mm flywheel?


Johannes thanks for MAKING my weekend!!

Case: original AS41Crank:German stockRods:German stockPistons:JE 86mm 24mm comp hightCylinders:Stock 85,5mm honed to 86mmHeads:043 40x35mm valvesCompression:12,0:1Rockers:Jpm two stud 1,5:1 ratioP-rods:Manton 3/8" cromolyCam:Fk45in/Fk44 exCam gears:MagnumOilpump:26mmDeepsump:1,5litFlywheel:180mm stock lightendClutch disc:cush lockPressure plate:KennedyHeader:Custom made 1 5/8" tuned lengthManifolds:Custom made tuned length(second order)Carbs:IDA 48

I don't think anyone on here could belive that this was a recipie for a 11.5 engine.... except you!And it sounds smooth as silk when it runs... :o :oMouse motor fans out there, keep the dreams alive! 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on June 09, 2008, 01:31:59 AM

Thank god you guys are back and give some report fom BG.11.58s!!!You do not disapoint. That is for sure.

This thread and specifically you Johannes is so much fun that I added this infomrtaion and link on both STF and Cal look lounge-drag racing. It is forsure worth sharing to a wider audience.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on June 09, 2008, 02:35:20 AM

11.58???

I cant melt it. Over breakfast I just did not get it too match.What have you done?

7.5 on the eighth is just barely in to the 11.99 on the quarter. Now the 92 mph indicates you could cut another tenth at MECA on the eigth.92 mph on the eight could get you in to 11.8 (maybe 11.7) on the quarter if you have an extremely light car but I think you have mentioned around730 kg and that is 1600lbs.



Is the 11.58 correct?

Help me understand. You need another 20 hp compared to the 92 mph so have you lowered the weight or what have you done since a week back?Now it will be very interesting to see what mph you had?112 mph / 180 km/h ?

Do you know exact weight of car and yourself? Stupid question. Knowing you, ofcourse you do.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on June 09, 2008, 05:25:44 AM

Thanks for the link Frallan!Awesome info.Congrats Johannes, awesome times and effort to see the project through.

Love the combo (and 180mm clutch). ;)

Please can you re-post the pics of the heads and chambers Johannes?(from a few pages back are not there any more).

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/New180disc.jpg)


The web server with the pics on are temporarily down, they are working to get them back up. Sorry

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ESH on June 09, 2008, 09:11:05 AM

That's an impressive time for sure. Looking forward to seeing if you can squeeze any more out of it.

8)

monkiboy's 69x101 Angle Flow "mouse motor" should be interesting!

:P

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on June 09, 2008, 09:50:41 AM

Quote from: Mat Sanchez on June 09, 2008, 09:11:05 AM

That's an impressive time for sure. Looking forward to seeing if you can squeeze any more out of it.

8)

monkiboy's 69x101 Angle Flow "mouse motor" should be interesting!

:P

Hmmm 69x101 interesting :D :D :D I can't wait to see this one run at SCC and have a chat with Johannes ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rune on June 09, 2008, 15:57:56 PM

Congrats Johannes, really cool! Both car and motor are good reflections to the JPM brand, its all second to non!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on June 09, 2008, 20:32:10 PM

Hello,Thanks for all "con grats".It has been a really nice weekend with some good 1/4 mile passees with "The Screaming Mouse".First pass went 11,79s/174,00km/h(108,75mph), second pass went 11,58s/177,01km/h(110,63mph) which I have some doubts about.The time seems to be wrong but the speed are correct, it is a pitty because it was my best pass which also shows from the top speed, a realistic timewould have been 11,70s.

So far the 11,79s is the fastest but maybe I can squeese a little bit more hp from the engine and do some more adjustments to my new car andhopefully cut a tenth or so.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ugly duckling on June 09, 2008, 23:28:23 PM

great effort. preaty sneeky job on that glass front end it almost passes as a oem one. would like to hear the engine up in the rpm im sure it soundesreal good. good luck with it and have a good time. congrats. UD.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on June 10, 2008, 13:06:07 PM

Film, videos :o :o???Someone could post?

Johannes you make a great job:-) It is a great research and developement on really highest level i ve ever seen..I hope we see us this year....Perhapsi come across to the dynoday..




ByeTom

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on June 10, 2008, 13:22:54 PM

". preaty sneeky job on that glass front end it almost passes as a oem one."

I was fooled for alittle while too - VERY nice work dude :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Oliver Frey on June 10, 2008, 14:10:59 PM

Johannes,

Very impressive work. I have followed this thread from the beginning to your very excellent 11.58 accomplishment! I have learned a lot.

This project definitely sounds fun.


How about this turbo mouse?1641 cc

I am impressed. I think of Bob Mc Clurgs 9 s beetle from the 70-80s.The 2007 specs of the Hyper bug-car weight with driver-1835 U.S pounds, 6 inch slicks (not 6-W's)type 1 trans,3.88 R@P

stock 69 mm VW 8 dowel crank with welded counterweights043 heads with dual springs and 1.25 rockerssingle 40 mm idf carbstock rodsMSD ignition

2008 update -Billet heads ,intakes,and pushrod tubes- designed and made by Adam Badgett, driver of the Hyper Bug.who also fabricated the new exhaust system as seen in the last video below.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6oKqSLvbj0M

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d2k-guT9VpA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wquvC1jeZQ8&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LstJ1c-vi30

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W5aQXg9orkU&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7mJkqcanuU(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billethead1.jpg)(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billet2.jpg)


Quote from: Frallan on June 12, 2008, 16:18:53 PM

How about this turbo mouse?1641 cc

I am impressed. I think of Bob Mc Clurgs 9 s beetle from the 70-80s.The 2007 specs of the Hyper bug-car weight with driver-1835 U.S pounds, 6 inch slicks (not 6-W's)type 1 trans,3.88 R@P

stock 69 mm VW 8 dowel crank with welded counterweights043 heads with dual springs and 1.25 rockerssingle 40 mm idf carbstock rodsMSD ignition

2008 update -Billet heads ,intakes,and pushrod tubes- designed and made by Adam Badgett, driver of the Hyper Bug.who also fabricated the new exhaust system as seen in the last video below.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billethead1.jpg)(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billet2.jpg)

Frallan, I am personal friends with Adam and Freddy Bagget the owners of the Hyberbug. This car is amazing. it runs 6.20's in the 1/8. This year theyhave made some changes and are still working out the bugs. Adam works for a NASCAR team in the US and is a very talented CNC programmer.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on June 12, 2008, 23:39:41 PM

The mouse on the track.... talk about a sweet running engine?! Crank the volume!!

http://www.youtube.com/v/v15y0b480GY&hl

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Oliver Frey on June 13, 2008, 03:11:02 AM

I'd really like to know how Johannes car is geared. I'm not taking anything away from his accomplishment (hell it's one of the coolest things I've seenin years), but gearing definitely comes into play with such a small engine.

Also where is the engine being shifted? In the video it sounds out of this world.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jee Ent. on June 13, 2008, 09:45:08 AM

From another angle..




http://jeeent.blogspot.com/2008/06/bugrun-2008.html

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on June 13, 2008, 17:53:15 PM

Damn, I didnt know that was a 'glass front end until UD pointed it out, nice!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on June 14, 2008, 21:46:37 PM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on December 28, 2007, 00:01:10 AM

it has a low ratio transaxel R/P 4.86:1 close ratio with 1.37:1 on the fourth gear.The rims are Saco five bolt and the tires are M&H 6x26-15.On a small engine, the weight of the rotating engine parts has to be in relation to the vehicle weight and gearing.

Would love to know the other ratios too!!


Hi there,

The ratios in my transaxel is R/P 4,375:1 First 3,44:1 second 2,54:1 third 1,71:1 fourth 1,35:1

The shift point is 8,5k and it never falls under 6k.6k is at max torque, with this gearing I use the engine between max torque and max power in all four gears, this is of course more important on a"Mouse Motor" than bigger engines.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on June 16, 2008, 11:27:32 AM

Wow, thanks for sharing Johannes!


Hello Johannes,

Thank you for sharing!

BTW I read that you plan on driving the engine on the street with full tin and cooling. will you be using the red early model or the Super?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bruce on June 16, 2008, 21:20:31 PM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on June 16, 2008, 10:38:45 AM

The ratios in my transaxel is R/P 4,375:1 First 3,44:1 second 2,54:1 third 1,71:1 fourth 1,35:1

Do you shift out of 1st before or after the 60' mark?


Hello,

Oliver Frey:My blue Super is retierd from the race track and I use it on a daily basis with a 2276,10,6:1 cr,fk 46,MS230 heads,JPM rockers twostud,scat 82 crank china,CB race rods,magnum straight cut,Phyton ex from CSP 45mm(very quiet),Keihin 41mm bike carbs making 222 very drivable hp.My plan is to make the "Screaming Mouse"(red car) street legal for next year and do smaller trips with it , but the priority will be on the drag strip.

Bruce:I really do not know if I shift before or after the 60ft, probably after because a pritty long first gear.

RegardsJohannes


I just ran it in Drag racing analyzer and it comes out a shift right around the 60 ft mark or maybe just after at 63 feet with all whatever variables youmight have.I still miss the real weight of your car Johannes.Playing a lot with the theoretical tool gives me more hp than what you have indicated, that is if your car isn´t even lighter than what has beenindicated.I also think we have a slightly wrong indication on Mantorp compared to Meca were you have the 60 ft too and reliable timing.In no way can I simulate and match the Meca performance with Mantorp.

In any case, you have a real mighty mouse and you are very skilled in order to go that fast, first time out with new car AND new engine. Not just anyengine either but what most of us will agree is fairly new territory. Very few will do that.





(No, not that small cc engines did not go fast before but you have a new combo that is exceptional. Let me guess that you have a bunch of otherimprovement ideas that you are burning to test next year?)Keep it up. As you must have noticed I am proud to "brag" about your achievements. It is just fun.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: rebel on June 18, 2008, 18:04:48 PM

Hello Johannes, Did you modyfy the VW 69mm crank in any way other than 8 dowelling? I ask, cause I've heard stock cranks are no good for high RPMs...


Quote from: rebel on June 18, 2008, 18:04:48 PM

Hello Johannes, Did you modyfy the VW 69mm crank in any way other than 8 dowelling? I ask, cause I've heard stock cranks are no good for high RPMs...

Counterweighted 69 mm probably.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: JS on June 18, 2008, 22:31:08 PM

Original Crank, no counterweights.


I know of an english guys who takes his STOCK VW crank to over 9000rpm ;) :)


Hi,The crank in the "MM" is a bone stock one, only 8 dowelled and carefully balanced.Forces created to the crank is from the weight of pistons and con rods, longer stroke and high rpm creates higher G-forces that pulls and bends thecrank, and this is no good for the case.The counterweights helps the crank to be straight.The pistons and rods in the "MM" is much lighter than stock which means that the need for counterweights are less, I do not say that you do not needthem but you defenetly need them less than with 94mm piston and long stroke.

I will show you an example on force created to the crank with a light and heavy piston at the same rpm,stroke and con rod length.

Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 565g piston(std) F=19276NEx:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 375g piston(JE) F=12793N

As you can see the created force is 50% more with the heavy std piston.To reach 12793N with the 565g piston the rpm is aprox 6800.

Keeping the weight down will save your engine and make it last longer with more performance.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rasser on June 19, 2008, 11:14:53 AM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on June 19, 2008, 10:08:27 AM

Hi,The crank in the "MM" is a bone stock one, only 8 dowelled and carefully balanced.Forces created to the crank is from the weight of pistons and con rods, longer stroke and high rpm creates higher G-forces that pulls and bends the crank, and this is no good forthe case.The counterweights helps the crank to be straight.The pistons and rods in the "MM" is much lighter than stock which means that the need for counterweights are less, I do not say that you do not need them but you defenetlyneed them less than with 94mm piston and long stroke.

I will show you an example on force created to the crank with a light and heavy piston at the same rpm,stroke and con rod length.

Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 565g piston(std) F=19276NEx:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 375g piston(JE) F=12793N

As you can see the created force is 50% more with the heavy std piston.To reach 12793N with the 565g piston the rpm is aprox 6800.

Keeping the weight down will save your engine and make it last longer with more performance.

RegardsJohannes

You make it all sound so simple ;-)

impressive stuff for sure!


I stand corrected ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jordy/DVK on June 19, 2008, 22:33:35 PM

Quote from: Rasser DK on June 19, 2008, 11:14:53 AM

You make it all sound so simple ;-)

impressive stuff for sure!

It isn't all that hard if you look into it... Most of it is just common sense...






F=m*a a is the same for equal RPMs so the bigger the m the bigger the F...

Problem is that the lighter the parts you buy, the lighter your wallet will get as well... :)

BTW. Does anyone know the difference in weight between STD rods and H-beams?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on July 12, 2008, 07:51:25 AM

Hey there Johannes,would you be so kind as to postsome pictures of the chambers and both ports of the heads.The old ones have vanished,and I am going crazy with anticipation having ever seen them!Regards,Dave.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 70Turbobug on August 24, 2008, 18:53:24 PM

Johannes you do amazing work!! Amazing results! A friend of mine bought your MS230 heads - fantastic product and great service! Thanks for sharingyour projects with us!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Roman on September 15, 2008, 17:47:40 PM


Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through thelights at 11,000 rpm!

I talked to Brian a couple of days ago and the figures above seem to be correct. It is a VERY expensive engine though, SCAT flangded crank, titaniumrods etc. No expenses spared!


The Screaming Mouse engine is sold to Greece, but I will make a 1679 based on the same concept to a friends G/Dragster. As it is a pure race engine the compression will be slightly over 13:1, the cam will be a bit bigger and the intake valves will be 1 mm larger. Heads by JPM and I will make the rest of the build. The reson for going 1679 is that re rules for Competition Eliminator G/Dragster says 232 kg/liter and a minimum weight of 386 kg. 386/232= 1663 cc. If we have a 1679 we can weigh in on 390 kg including driver.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rune on September 15, 2008, 18:21:57 PM

Sounds like an interesting project Anders.. Keep us posted. Going to dynoday?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on September 15, 2008, 23:02:47 PM

Wow Anders this sounds like a real challenge! I hope you will share your build and theories with us Loungers?!? I just wish I get to go to Dyno Day, butit doesn't look promising >:( Fill Rune with info for me ;D


Yes, I am going to dyno day. I will talk to the owner of the dragster and ask if it is OK to share the build, but I don't think there are any problems.


I won't build any engine for Richards Dragster, at least this year. We ended up buying Brian Hyerstays spare 1680 engine, dynoed to 208 hp for a veryreasonable price.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 67-indeed/DVK on September 21, 2008, 00:15:21 AM

i'm sure we'd all love to hear some specs if that's what it's dyno-ed at!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Roman on September 21, 2008, 08:45:56 AM

Quote from: 67-indeed/DVK on September 21, 2008, 00:15:21 AM


Berg 69 mm wedgemated counterweighted crankBerg Thick wall 88's with berg special pistons with dykes ringsBerg PushrodsCarrillo rodsStock heads ported by Dick Nuss @ EMS with 42 x 37.5 Del West titanium valves12.5 compression

Dyoned at Adam Wik's dyno.197 hp@ 7500 rpm, 198@8000 rpm , 208@8500 rpm, 197@9000 rpm

Best ET 9.28





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Project_X on September 21, 2008, 15:23:47 PM

Quote from: Roman on September 21, 2008, 08:45:56 AM

Quote from: 67-indeed/DVK on September 21, 2008, 00:15:21 AM


Berg 69 mm wedgemated counterweighted crankBerg Thick wall 88's with berg special pistons with dykes ringsBerg PushrodsCarrillo rodsStock heads ported by Dick Nuss @ EMS with 42 x 37.5 Del West titanium valves12.5 compression

Dyoned at Adam Wik's dyno.197 hp@ 7500 rpm, 198@8000 rpm , 208@8500 rpm, 197@9000 rpm

Best ET 9.28

Nice, sounds similar to what I want to do when I start on my bug again (moms been in the hospital since July, sick since April, so the bugs on hold tillDecember or later)I still play with ideas though.This one is the one I do want to do after seeing that 1600cc earlier in this thread.1600ccForged 85.5'sForged c/w wedgemated 69mm crank5.5" connecting rodsEngle FK10 camForged cam gear10:1 CompressionCB Performances CNC Round ported headsport matched intakes Dual 40 or 44IDF's1 5/8" merged header w/ stingerPertronix ignition kit

All to be streetable running on 93 octane ;D I was told its doable so who knows.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 67-indeed/DVK on September 21, 2008, 21:57:50 PM

sounds high strung, but i ain't no expert ;)why wouldn't you go for a few more cc's with machine 88s?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Project_X on September 22, 2008, 04:25:02 AM

Quote from: 67-indeed/DVK on September 21, 2008, 21:57:50 PM

sounds high strung, but i ain't no expert ;)why wouldn't you go for a few more cc's with machine 88s?

Well I like that 1600cc at the beginning and i want one to :(Accept I cant afford those 86mm pistons LOLIs high strung bad?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on September 22, 2008, 10:18:10 AM

Quote from: Project_X on September 22, 2008, 04:25:02 AM

Is high strung bad?

OHHH no! The most bang for the cc!! is fun!


Quote from: Project_X on September 21, 2008, 15:23:47 PM

Nice, sounds similar to what I want to do when I start on my bug again (moms been in the hospital since July, sick since April, so the bugs on hold till December or later)I still play with ideas though.This one is the one I do want to do after seeing that 1600cc earlier in this thread.1600ccForged 85.5'sForged c/w wedgemated 69mm crank5.5" connecting rodsEngle FK10 camForged cam gear10:1 CompressionCB Performances CNC Round ported headsport matched intakes Dual 40 or 44IDF's1 5/8" merged header w/ stingerPertronix ignition kit

All to be streetable running on 93 octane ;D I was told its doable so who knows.

I don't want to dissapoint you but it won't make any monster horsepower. I called Pat Downs some days ago about a budget small CC engine and hesuggested CNC ported Comp eliminators a 1915 and that would maybe be able to do about 210 hp...There is no off the shelf heads today that can make 123 hp per liter. I know that both EMS and JPM charges about $4500 for these kind of heads.

You won't need any wedgemate either, an 8-dowel done right will work perfect. Skip the aftermarket rods and spend them on the pistons instead. Go for a 1 1/2" exhaust instead of a 1 5/8".

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on September 22, 2008, 18:06:50 PM

The Carrillo's in the dragster motor are only 5" long as I remember.









How about if I used slip in 87's with a slip in 74mm crank then, but with the same combo above?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Animal on September 23, 2008, 07:24:13 AM

awesome,i like the mouse motor trends ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on September 23, 2008, 20:11:58 PM



Sounds like a Claude's Buggie's motor from 1985.


Quote from: Zach Gomulka on September 23, 2008, 20:11:58 PM




Who?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: stealth67vw on September 25, 2008, 06:03:12 AM






Who?

Claudes Buggies. Now known as CB Performance.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on September 28, 2008, 01:37:34 AM

How about a small mouse? Actually a very small mouse... a Quarter Mouse!!(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/270920081744.jpg)Picture by Fredrik "Frallan" Reichel

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on September 28, 2008, 01:57:05 AM

Quote from: JHU on September 28, 2008, 01:37:34 AM

How about a small mouse? Actually a very small mouse... a Quarter Mouse!!(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/270920081744.jpg)Picture by Fredrik "Frallan" Reichel

??? :o ??? :o ??? :o ??? ;) :)


a 1/4 mouse, what? ??? ???

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on September 28, 2008, 16:07:20 PM


a 1/4 mouse, what? ??? ???

[url]http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,6750.msg100845.html#new[/url :)


cool, are they fast or anything?What do they do in the 1/4 mile?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tomi on November 19, 2008, 12:11:49 PM

What happend to the mouse motor pictures? Can they still be seen somewhere?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on November 29, 2008, 03:20:21 AM

Quote from: Tomi on November 19, 2008, 12:11:49 PM

What happend to the mouse motor pictures? Can they still be seen somewhere?

I have now fixed the broken links 8)












Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on December 05, 2008, 21:32:13 PM

WOW!Thanks for the pics,nice to finally see the heads.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:31:22 AM

My new mouse motor

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:33:40 AM

More

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on January 13, 2009, 10:30:49 AM

Quote from: 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:31:22 AM

My new mouse motor

Come don't lleave us hanging we NEED some more info on this one :o ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Martin on January 13, 2009, 11:46:52 AM

looks like twin over head cam, 16V, twin plug motor.

Very nice work...

Have been sketching up a simular item for my motor, although not a mouse motor more like a dirty big rat.

love some more info on it.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Wünderwolff on January 13, 2009, 13:06:03 PM

1946vw, I will not tell you that engine looks good, actually I think it is ugly. ::)

But hell, does that monster look lovely or what :o :o

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: nicolas on January 13, 2009, 14:12:11 PM


a 1/4 mouse, what? ??? ???

1/4 mouse with cheese, or in metric a royal mouse. ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on January 13, 2009, 18:35:50 PM

Better 8 dowel that crank, at least ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Animal on January 15, 2009, 08:16:42 AM

Will that engine fit? Looks pretty wide 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: folkevogn on January 17, 2009, 11:07:50 AM

Quote from: nicolas on January 13, 2009, 14:12:11 PM


a 1/4 mouse, what? ??? ???

1/4 mouse with cheese, or in metric a royal mouse. ;D

hehe ;D good one Nicolasreminds me of one of my top 5 best movies. Pulp Fiction 8) 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on January 24, 2009, 09:18:40 AM


More

Whatever that is, please let us know more.My guess is not 4 valves per cylinder but twin plug and 2 valves?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Roman on January 24, 2009, 16:24:54 PM

Quote from: Frallan on January 24, 2009, 09:18:40 AM











More

Whatever that is, please let us know more.My guess is not 4 valves per cylinder but twin plug and 2 valves?

Hi Frallan,It is an engine for a Comp Eliminator G/Dragster. One of his old engines is in a garage 100 m from me!Top notch work Brian!

//Roman

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Chris Andrews - The Mailman on May 25, 2009, 20:47:43 PM


The Carrillo's in the dragster motor are only 5" long as I remember.

Should I remember this correctly, I believe that the Carrillo's in Eric Ballard's (ERCO) A/MC, B/MC, C/MC, C/MX & G/Dragster 1680 cc

engines (88 EMPI Slipper Skirt pistons, 69 mm VW counter weighed crank) were 4.850". Yes it is a VERY tight fit, but it can be done

with Slipper Skirt pistons.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ugly duckling on May 31, 2009, 22:35:58 PM

oh postman qwit your yapin and build somthing for god sakes. times a ticken ::) ;). UD.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: viNce on June 11, 2009, 18:34:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKYf0NOMS8 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: C.O.R. on June 18, 2009, 00:06:51 AM

Chris, I must be missing something, so help me out please. What do you mean by "slipper skirt pistons are a very tight fit?" Are you talking aboutslipper skirts and the width of the assembled engine in relation to fitting into a bug body being "very tight?" The only factor I see here is if your runningspacers on the the cylinders, but that'd be with a long stroke rod.

Do you mean to say "very tight" related to the skirt of the piston (barely) coming out of the engine case with those short rods? I'd agree that'd be aconcern. With those shorty rods, you'd need to hand grind small windows in the case for the rod stroke, and then match grind (as in carefully havethem machined) the cylinders to the case windows. Then you'd hand grind the slipper skirt themselves so they don't hit the case on the return stroke.Those short rods imact calculating your compression ratio, deck height, etc.

You are right on target with the rod lengths themselves, and the crankshaft/rod length ratios as other considerations.

And don't forget that the Modified Compact (A/MC, etc.) and Modified Eliminator (SS/CX) classes all used crankshafts varying in strokes from 78.2mmthrought 82mm to meet the weight break rules. Each combo required their own special machine/grind to fit modifications depending ont he parts youassembled. Now, the dual carbs to engine compartment side is tight when you needed to adjust/synching them...

Anyway, our thoughts/input on the discussion....talk to you soon!

Aloha, Frank

Castagnetti Ohana RacingHonolulu and Hilo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 00:00:18 AM

Thanks Vince for posting the video of my Buggy.

Inspirated by this post and by the great job of JPM, we decide to build a small engine also.

We race for the first time (with this engine) in France 3 weeks ago and then all this week end at the EBI 3.

Here is the combo :AS41 case66 mm welded berg crank90 mm autocraft piston & cylinder kit (old from 90's i think).stock welded heads with 42x37 mm titanium valvesHeads flows 190cfm intake / 150 cfm exhaust at full lift with good velocityFK89 cam - 1,4 rockers48 IDA with 40mm venturies 1-7/8 exhaust (too big i know :))12,5 CR - running with VP racing fuelNo cooling, but alternator is on.

Actually the engine is making 167cv (DIN) HP (perhaps a little more with the changes we made this week end).

This engine is my street bug (you can see it on the video in the message before).

I have always build "big engine" from 2liters to 3liters and i am very surprised and glad of this small one.

This week end at the EBI 3 i ran 12,2s at the beginig and after some different jetting, venturies, exhaust, etc... combo, i finally ran :20m : 1,60s1/8 : 7,32s1/4 : 11,68sspeed : 109 mph

The engine seems to be very strong as we made aroud 20 passes this week end, 9000rpm at each gear, 9200 at burn out. No leaks, no cooling problems, rockers play have not move.




I think we have still many things to do as the combo is not perfect.The exhaust is not good, the cam is too big, the I/E ratio is too high, the manifolds are too long, slicks are too big, etc...

So, if someone have ideas or advices, i am really open !!

Special thanks to Mike H. and Greg M. for the gearbox, Steeve, Ian Clark, Paul Shley, Keith S. for the support and the advices this week end on thetrack !! Thanks to Vincent (builder and conceptor of the Buggy), Phiphi (for the suspension tuning advices) and to my friend David that helps me a lot on thisengine.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 13:39:32 PM

Here is the engine :

(http://www.slideperformance.com/photos/P1000883.jpg)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Oliver Frey on July 08, 2009, 19:21:25 PM

Quote from: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 13:39:32 PM

Here is the engine :

(http://www.slideperformance.com/photos/P1000883.jpg)

Sweet look at how narrow that little bugger is.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: fish on July 15, 2009, 08:54:21 AM

This topic is just insane, Congrats to all that have had success with the mighty mouse cant wait to put mine together 69 x 88 Empi Birals, should begood.Anyway keep up the great work guys.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jesse Wens on July 18, 2009, 18:58:09 PM

1192cc15.421@ebiturbocharged though,still counts as a mighty mouse?(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/510/702/20090707/dyn002_original_602_494_pjpeg_2510702_e324f37b71b13105bacb2e47c2522925.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rf_mGqIEMGM/SjphsirU1JI/AAAAAAAAAIw/z-jIs3G2W4M/s400/DSC00285%5B1%5D)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mr horsepower on July 19, 2009, 15:51:48 PM

go jesse!!!!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jesse Wens on July 19, 2009, 19:14:35 PM

thanx

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Torben Alstrup on July 20, 2009, 10:31:21 AM

Yes the buggy ran very nice.At some point sunday Johannes and I was sitting in the CSP tent grabbing a bite, when you went on the track. - Both of us stopped talking andeating, and listened to the burn out and run. And when it was over we both had a big smile on our faces. Nice engine.T

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Animal on July 21, 2009, 15:01:17 PM

Damn what kinda turbosetup is that? ???

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on July 21, 2009, 15:14:54 PM

Quote from: ruffbiker on July 18, 2009, 18:58:09 PM

1192cc15.421@ebiturbocharged though,still counts as a mighty mouse?(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/510/702/20090707/dyn002_original_602_494_pjpeg_2510702_e324f37b71b13105bacb2e47c2522925.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rf_mGqIEMGM/SjphsirU1JI/AAAAAAAAAIw/z-jIs3G2W4M/s400/DSC00285%5B1%5D)

Cool little set up - we had a good race ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jesse Wens on July 22, 2009, 11:50:01 AM

Monkeyboy,That was the metalflake buggy no? Close call till the end, the best races. Maybe when your done finetuning the result will be the otherway round.


Quote from: ruffbiker on July 22, 2009, 11:50:01 AM

Monkeyboy,That was the metalflake buggy no? Close call till the end, the best races. Maybe when your done finetuning the result will be the other way round.






Yep thats me and yes that was the FIRST tune and then driven to Belguim ::) I have had a few problems since but I think I have them sorted now ::)

Das Drag Day / SCC ??? ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: rick m on August 03, 2009, 08:04:23 AM

What journal size are you running on your destroked crank and what rod length?

Rick Mortensen

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: george4888 on August 06, 2009, 05:53:02 AM

Hi, Everyone. When I get my car set up for good take-offs from the starting line I will let you know the times. I don't see anyone doing a legalSS/FS in the USA, except me. There are rules which do not allow the use of any aftermarket heads and the 044 is an example of a head that is NOTmade by VW/Audi and per the NHRA tech people, not allowed in this class. Also, if you only have a roll bar you have to use Stock seats,,,not racetype seats and bumpers are also required. The rules for the 2009 SS/FS class are such that I am having lots of trouble getting my car and me downcloser to the weight of 1800 pounds with my 1776 cc engine. Why the 1776 cc ? Because , I have built more of them than any other size during my30 years working on VW's, do know what to expect. Looking over the past two years of posts in this forum, I see I am on track with many for my"small" engine. But, I am only working with springs that allow up to 8,000 rpms,,,at this time, but if the times are not on the index or below it, I will goto stronger springs and pick up another 1,000 rpms. The bottom end is Berg wedge-mated crank and Pauter light weight rods. I am using many lightweight parts throughout the engine, such as Pauter's roller rocker arms and CE light weight cam straight cut gears. The heads are FF and have beenrun in the '80's legal down into the 11's, so I just need to work out the suspension problems I have and see what happens to the HP getting to thetrack. Thanks to all for the good information. Building a car to run legally in NHRA or IHRA is not easy, due to the strict rules. The index is 12.75 forSS/FS and in IHRA, running over 2,000 pounds weight, it is 13.25 for SS/CC. We did this 10 years ago and ran .75 under the index at that time, so Iam just trying to repeat history and have some fun.

George Karacostas, 4886

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Taylor on August 16, 2009, 22:28:02 PM

wanted: I am looking for a set of nos 041s they must have a VW logo and the full part number. No mofoco of auto lina logos. NHRA is particular ;D

e-mail me p/m me or call me at 562-884-2373 thanks taylor

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: kingsburgphil on August 17, 2009, 07:03:57 AM

Regarding Kris Klingamann's motors, I don't see any mention of the weight break used in AMC/BMC class comp. At the time we started at 13 lbs./ci andwent to 19 lbs./ci. I bailed at 15 lbs., since my 1998cc was to heavy/slow to keep up. Kris and others used small efficient motors because they had to respond to NHRA rules with winning combinations of parts and driver skills. Yes they leaned on the motors and trannys rather heavily, and theypaid the price, as well as reaped the rewards. Nowadays, unless you're a class racer there's few reasons to run a motor at the ragged edge, unlessyou're a glutton for punishment. Kris and I only raced once, i was lucky. I dared not try my luck again. Kris ,if you read this, long time no see!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on August 27, 2009, 14:13:46 PM

Well I finally ran the 11 I've been chasng for a while with my 1776cc N/A street car. The interesting thing is having read most of this thread again thatI would not consider it to be "thinking out of the box", particularly in terms of the motor. A fair bit more effort has gone into making the gearbox moreefficient though. Ian at WPS who built the motor would be the first to admit its just a development of the street motor he ran in his split, and not a race motor. The parts in the motor are all readily available but they have just been selected and put together with care. The best and most exotic parts of theengine are certainly the heads, which are Jeff Denham 043's with Ti valves. But again they are street heads a sort of an entry level set for Jeff, as heis certainly capable of something much better.

The car is light for a street car, but not super light (1585 at the last count with my skiny ribs in it, it might be 1565 by now as I have lost some weightin the car since it was last weighed), as its all steel wings and has stock bulkheads and the like, but its stripped out inside with basically no interiorexcept a head liner. Anything I've changed or added to the car I've allways tried to make it lighter, but not to the point of compromising drivability orreliability.

The car was driven to the track (2 1/4 hours) on a hot day with no trouble. It ran 3 11's with a best of 11.915 at 111.41mph but this was with astinger no fan belt and slicks. The journey home took 3 hours due to a traffic jam and the car sat in stop start traffic on tick over for 45 mins at 80degrees C no problem.

I'm really pleased with the achivment, but I would not consider it thinking outside the box. Its more like good logic and enginering.

So the big qestion for me is, what can you achive if you do really go for it? It's been said earlier by John (JMR) that unless there are class rules torestrict cc / weight there is no major development on mass, to find out what can be achived today. That said there are people trying, just for tryingsake, or just general self entertainment. The good news for all of us is that most of them in Europe and a few from over the pod contribute on here.Also I think things have got a lot easier due to the availability and choice of parts, and this has made us all a bit lazy. But all the time there are peoplelike the Skinne Bros, Johannes at JPM, with there recent achivements, and many others, I think there will be constant improvement, as all thesepeople are committed to making things better. Its just just the progress will be slower than it would be, if we were all racing to class rules, as theywere back in the day in the US!

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on August 27, 2009, 16:45:55 PM

WOW congratulation Pete - Thats AWESOME - 3 11's and driven to and from the track - HARDCORE!

I also agree with alot of your points - it would be great to see a cc/weight class in VW racing, But its good to see there are still the few hardcorepeople doiin it just for the Kicks ;) Why do you think I am building my 2180 roller crank mototr ;) :)

Well done dude ;D




Post by: Stanley on September 03, 2009, 03:21:40 AM

Quote from: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 00:00:18 AM

Thanks Vince for posting the video of my Buggy.

No cooling, but alternator is on.

The engine seems to be very strong as we made aroud 20 passes this week end, 9000rpm at each gear, 9200 at burn out. No leaks, no cooling problems, rockers play have not move.

By no cooling problems do you mean no temp problems or no sign of heat damage?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 14:34:22 PM

Hello guys,

I am happy and exited to tell you that a new, very aggressive," RAPTOR mouse" was born yesterday.

1795cc, mag case, 043 heads and ida 48 carbs.

228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm(166.9lbs)6200rpm corrected(Din).

Have a nice weekend.

Johannes Persson

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: speedwell on October 23, 2009, 14:43:27 PM

any pictures ???.... ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on October 23, 2009, 15:17:18 PM

;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: JS on October 23, 2009, 15:43:49 PM

Congratulations Johannes! Can you please tell us about the valve train parts used in the build?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benssp on October 23, 2009, 15:54:44 PM

Quote from: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 14:34:22 PM

Hello guys,





Johannes Persson

8)


JS,Cam is jpm01005(10mm cam lift 271deg at 0.05" 105 lobe center), ceramic lifters, GB 160000psi pr, jpm 1.55:1 rockers two stud, ti valves, jpm alumecretainers, OTEVA75 valve springs and single grove 7deg keepers.

Alu push rods will soon be installed.

/Johannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rasser on October 23, 2009, 16:23:34 PM

Dual valve springs? if yes, do you then plan on using single springs when installing the alu pushrods?

Oh, and a big congrats on the impressive results!!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: vwcab on October 23, 2009, 16:44:10 PM

Yes,impressive numbers ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on October 23, 2009, 17:27:06 PM

What's the bore x stroke of that mouse?






Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 17:45:47 PM

Zach,

The bore is 91mm and stroke is 69mm.

/Johannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on October 23, 2009, 18:02:17 PM

Johannes you are crazy .. ;D ;D You should try to sign in the guiness book of records for highest VW aircooled HP numbers/liter.....

I am speakless...

And we are waiting for pictures and videos....

Nice weekend too...Greetings from GermanyTom


Rasser,

The valve springs are duals but has increased installed height, pressures at closed valve is 100lbs and about 250lbs at 15.5 mm.The pressure is good for 9000rpm+./Johannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Rasser on October 23, 2009, 19:00:09 PM

Johannes: remember the type4 heads you did for Thomas from MIB? He just had his 2366 engine on the dyno today, and guess what - 233nm/6200rpm 233hp/7400. almost similar numbers (except the ccm) :D


Hello guys,





Johannes Persson



JS,Cam is jpm01005(10mm cam lift 271deg at 0.05" 105 lobe center), ceramic lifters, GB 160000psi pr, jpm 1.55:1 rockers two stud, ti valves, jpm alumec retainers, OTEVA75 valvesprings and single grove 7deg keepers.

Alu push rods will soon be installed.

/Johannes

Please post the dyno results after you change the pushrods. Very impressive work!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Johannes Persson on October 24, 2009, 10:47:02 AM

JS,

The engine is for a customer in England and is delivered.The alu push rods was not done when we started the dyno tests but has been tested before with small performance improvements.

/Johannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on October 24, 2009, 11:23:38 AM

Congrats to the owner and to the builder.

I heard Mr Takanobu Ito is on his way over to Sweden, will he get there before Bernd Pischetsrieder :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on October 26, 2009, 15:17:18 PM

127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flattappet pushrod engine which was designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on superunleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scale of this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find areJohannes’s old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car.

We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developingproducts for us to use. But for me best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and





would certainly never boast about any of his work. But perhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what theyare doing.

The truth is, he really does operate at the “next level”, and the proof, if there is any doubt, is right here on this thread.

The really interesting thing is that I’m sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figureswhich us mere mortals struggle to comprehend, it’s just be a matter of time!

Hat’s off, as it’s another amazing result!

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on October 26, 2009, 15:31:47 PM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on October 26, 2009, 15:17:18 PM

127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flat tappet pushrod engine whichwas designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on super unleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scaleof this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find are Johannes’s old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car.

We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developing products for us to use. But forme best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and would certainly never boast about any of his work. Butperhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what they are doing.


The really interesting thing is that I’m sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figures which us mere mortalsstruggle to comprehend, it’s just be a matter of time!


Peter

I know exactly what you mean dude - I have been thinking and re-reading this thread since the post from JPM, Its just AMAZING!!!!!!! ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on October 28, 2009, 01:45:38 AM

The best G/D motor makes 275hp + or - and is a 120 cid or 2000cc. 137.5 hp per liter. My best made 220hp at 1680cc or 130hp per liter. ThanksBrian

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 17:17:05 PM

Quote from: 1946vw on October 28, 2009, 01:45:38 AM

The best G/D motor makes 275hp + or - and is a 120 cid or 2000cc. 137.5 hp per liter. My best made 220hp at 1680cc or 130hp per liter. Thanks Brian

I just loooove people that throw out A and not B.

Looking at the pictures you have posted earlier I would guess that your engines use overhead cams and twice the amount of valves?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on October 28, 2009, 17:33:58 PM

69 x 88 steve tims heads 42 x 37.5 it was in Hot vws a few years ago. Brian

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: TexasTom on October 28, 2009, 19:27:28 PM

Johannes,

What was the static compression ratio on this motor?Amazing results, Congratulations!

Tom


Tom,The comp ratio is 12.8:1.Dynoed on pump gas with muffler.

RegardsJohannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: bang on October 28, 2009, 20:59:02 PM

why not build a mouse engine ms230 heads fit on?but nice numbers

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Roman on October 28, 2009, 21:05:37 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 17:17:05 PM

I just loooove people that throw out A and not B. Looking at the pictures you have posted earlier I would guess that your engines use overhead cams and twice the amount of valves?

Hi, It is like comparing apples and oranges, but Brians 220 hp engine is not a OHC. The pictures were on his new engine, not the 220 hp one. I know someof the details of the 220 hp as I was offered to buy the old one a year ago. A lot of nice stuff like titanium rods, roller cam etc, in other words: A pure






race engine. The big difference is that JPM's engines makes about the same power/liter at lower rpm's with less extreme parts and on pump gas.

//Roman

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 21:14:49 PM

Thanks for filling in Roman.

Quote from: Roman on October 28, 2009, 21:05:37 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 17:17:05 PM

I just loooove people that throw out A and not B. Looking at the pictures you have posted earlier I would guess that your engines use overhead cams and twice the amount of valves?

Hi, It is like comparing apples and oranges, but Brians 220 hp engine is not a OHC. The pictures were on his new engine, not the 220 hp one. I know some of the details of the 220hp as I was offered to buy the old one a year ago. A lot of nice stuff like titanium rods, roller cam etc, in other words: A pure race engine. The big difference is that JPM's engines makes about the same power/liter at lower rpm's with less extreme parts and on pump gas.

//Roman


Hello Bang,

The customer did only want to use VW castings.

My own 1915 producing 242hp/8600rpm has MS230, it will be updated with my new valve train and EFI for this season.

I have another "Mouse motor"(1735cc) going on for my self that will be designed for peak power at 10500rpm, it will also have my MS230.

Where do you guys put the cc limit for a "Mouse Motor"?

/Johannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: bang on October 28, 2009, 21:41:40 PM

ahh okay.

by the way. sent you a mail.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on October 28, 2009, 21:56:03 PM


Hello Bang,

The customer did only want to use VW castings.

My own 1915 producing 242hp/8600rpm has MS230, it will be updated with my new valve train and EFI for this season.

I have another "Mouse motor"(1735cc) going on for my self that will be designed for peak power at 10500rpm, it will also have my MS230.


/Johannes

Those are some serious numbers dude ;D

And I would say "mouse motors" would be Sub 2 ltr (2000cc)

Its really funny when I start talking with my "watercooled" friends they are just in SHOCK when I start showing them this thread :D :D :D

"what! all that power from an 1600, 8 valve!!!????" or "and Naturally aspirated WTF!!!!"

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: A-C on October 29, 2009, 03:33:49 AM



/Johannes

Under the 2,5l is a mouse motor!!! ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Trond Dahl on October 29, 2009, 09:18:22 AM

You guys are talking about rat size engines, not mouse engines... anything below 1776 is small enough to be a mouse :-D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on October 29, 2009, 11:25:16 AM

Quote from: Trond Dahl on October 29, 2009, 09:18:22 AM

You guys are talking about rat size engines, not mouse engines... anything below 1776 is small enough to be a mouse :-D

Yeah your probably right dude ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: andy M. on October 29, 2009, 12:13:11 PM








anything with a stock stroke crank is a mouse

strokers are for strokers! ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on October 29, 2009, 16:50:39 PM

My 69 x 88 motor sounds alot like his "street motor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifters, 48 idas, vw heads, 5.400 rods, mag case, and it makes 131 perliter. And it is 10 years old. Brian

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: fish on October 30, 2009, 03:30:34 AM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on October 26, 2009, 15:17:18 PM

127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flat tappet pushrod engine whichwas designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on super unleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scaleof this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find are Johannes’s old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car.

We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developing products for us to use. But forme best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and would certainly never boast about any of his work. Butperhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what they are doing.


The really interesting thing is that I’m sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figures which us mere mortalsstruggle to comprehend, it’s just be a matter of time!


Peter

x2 very nice words Peter, for a very deserving bloke..........Props, JP.

Quote from: 1946vw on October 29, 2009, 16:50:39 PM

My 69 x 88 motor sounds alot like his "street motor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifters, 48 idas, vw heads, 5.400 rods, mag case, and it makes 127 per liter. And it is 10 years old.Brian

Also some awesome #'s there Brian, well done, any special coating on the internals or tips you can share, cam, chamber design, etc?


The heads from Steve Tims made all the difference. 208 to 220 Brian


At what RPM do you see 220 hp Brian? Great achievement!

And Peter S, thanks for taking the chance on a dark horse like JPM! ...he delivers!We Scandinavians know, but this spring the Outlaws will know too!


It starts making 200 at 7000 and goes up to 220 at 8400 and down to 200 at 9000. Thanks brian

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Speed-demon on October 31, 2009, 13:24:39 PM

Johannes: Could You please post some info on Your new Raptor cams? I would like to know:

- cam data- which valve springs they are made for (or which are needed)- which engine characteristics they are made for (incl engine size)- pricing

BR

Jens Kristian, Norway


PM for speed-demon. ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: gareth jones on November 19, 2009, 09:06:24 AM

I've been following this thread for some time nowand I am very impressed with what I have seenEven before the thread started I ran a 1776 with K-roc 043 heads and an Engle 130it made good power and was very driveable but it wasn't in this league

anyway, I am now building a 1914 motornot really a mouse I know, but definitely along those linesI have weisco pistons, H-beam rods, very light flywheel, mag case with sleeved lifter bores etcbut I am unsure about which heads to use





so, who makes heads with the necessary flow figures, titanium valves, springs which are good for 9k and acceptable street cooling? ???

I have always liked Steve Tim's work but even his signature series heads don't fit the billthese look interesting: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=828811

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: TexasTom on November 20, 2009, 21:47:21 PM

Gareth,

You're right, there are some amazing things and information in this thread!

What are your goals (horsepower & torque) and use for this engine? Will it be street driven? How much? Carburetion?

These questions should be asked/answered in order to lead you to the heads (and cam) for your engine.I've had better luck with combinations knowing this beforehand; Bigger isn't always better.

Good luck with your project!Tom

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: gareth jones on November 20, 2009, 22:08:27 PM

Hello Tomthank you for your replyI will be running 48 IDA carbsand I will be driving the car on the streetbut it most certainly won't be my daily driverI would like to achieve 180 hp at 8000 rpmwhether or not that is a realistic aim remains to be seenas regards the cam, I bought an FK46 for this motor about 6 months agohowever, a JPM raptor cam may well be a better option...

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Neil Davies on November 23, 2009, 16:38:47 PM

Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: TexasTom on December 03, 2009, 00:18:34 AM



I'd say under 1800cc.The smaller it is than that, the mousier ... ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on December 03, 2009, 04:52:23 AM

so a 1914 is a rattier motor? ;D


Quote from: Neil Davies on November 23, 2009, 16:38:47 PM


Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. Isuspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Bothmotors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

As you will see I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the combination, but does not have the modern thinking Johannes has put into his Raptorcams, and I would say there is a performance advantage with one of his cam's. Put it like this if I were keeping the motor I would buy a JPM cam,lifters springs and pushrods.

As others have said you need to consider your induction, head and cam combination first. If you could provide Johannes head flow details I'm sure hecould recomend a cam package to make the most of them, but you need heads that flow well and have good air speed before you go anywhere.

Good luck with the project.

Peter





Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's enginespec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run astring of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

Hi Peter

what is the weight of the cars ?

Udo







Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: andy M. on December 09, 2009, 11:34:18 AM

Peters car is 1340lb ( or was, probably lighter now ) and mine was 1376lb, both without driver,

andy


Hi Udo,

My car at race weight is about 1500lbs with me in it. Andy's is a little heavier I think, (I think the exact weights are on the weight saving thread onhere) but there is not much in it in terms of weight and power difference. Basically both cars are very similar all round.

I think both cars are a great compromise between race car and street car, or street car and race car depending on how you like to look at it. We haveboth driven as far as EBI in them and drive the cars to the track when we race over here. Both cars turn some respectable times for small engined N/Astreet cars on the track, and they are certainly plenty quick enough on the street!

Peter


That is very lightweight . My car has 1460 lbs without driver . But with your weight the times are ok :)

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: gareth jones on December 26, 2009, 09:43:26 AM

Thanks for the advice Peter ;) PM sent




Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's enginespec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run astring of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

As you will see I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the combination, but does not have the modern thinking Johannes has put into his Raptor cams, and I would say there isa performance advantage with one of his cam's. Put it like this if I were keeping the motor I would buy a JPM cam, lifters springs and pushrods.

As others have said you need to consider your induction, head and cam combination first. If you could provide Johannes head flow details I'm sure he could recomend a campackage to make the most of them, but you need heads that flow well and have good air speed before you go anywhere.

Good luck with the project.

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: TSAF on December 28, 2009, 09:36:40 AM

I am left speechless with JP motorsport.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Simpsonshoe on December 30, 2009, 10:09:46 AM

Quote from: Bewitched on December 28, 2007, 10:12:48 AM

Thats the biggest crank pulley that i have ever seen ;D

Nice work though,keep us posted dude 8)

Is that the Berg Overachiever?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: bedjo78 on January 11, 2010, 12:12:45 PM

I have plan to built 64X90.5. the engine will be run on 1641CC clas.

64 crank from old bug crank90.5A mahle Eagle 5.352 rodsCB044 round port 40X35Engle 120 with 1.25 rockerweber IDF44 or 481-5/8 merged comp 10:1

will my engine potential making power comparing with 69X87 with same configuration?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on January 11, 2010, 20:26:12 PM

the 40 hp crank that has the 64mm stroke,has wider rod journals by about 1mm than the 1300-1600 crank.Same diameter, just your rod side clearance will be excesive.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: bedjo78 on January 12, 2010, 00:58:13 AM






Quote from: dangerous on January 11, 2010, 20:26:12 PM

the 40 hp crank that has the 64mm stroke,has wider rod journals by about 1mm than the 1300-1600 crank.Same diameter, just your rod side clearance will be excesive.

Owhh....I did't notice that. Is it posible to use 40HP Rods into my set up?

Thanks for that info's

RegardsMuz

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on January 12, 2010, 01:10:19 AM

since we're on the subject of mouse motors

and this thread is filled with tasty info,

i was wondering , on an 85.5mm bore , whats the biggest intake valve that could be run "ideally" JPM's mouse motor is 86mm , if im not forgetting , its running a 40x35.5 head ,

sounds interesting,

i wonder , on a 83mm bore , is the 40mm too big? maybe a 37mm intake is ok?

i have both my beetle's needing motor rebuild and both have planned motors already (rather mild compare to most )

this idea is on the drawing board, but it sure as heck makes me excited

83x74 (83mm 40hp big bore kit.. mod to run on as41 case and 040 head) not sure what is needed to be done to it crank, the usual 74mm crank

puts it nicely at 1601cc kinda like the porsche super90

, cam etc still having fun with it (aka thinking LOL)

myt be fun for a lil' autocross beetle

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jesse Wens on January 12, 2010, 12:58:56 PM

40 horse bigborekit has short cilinders for 64 mm crank so shims wil be required when using stroker crank.The 64 mm crank is stronger than people say with the neceserey mods. The weak link is the crank at the 3rd cilinder. For short burst , no pronlmes butuse the power for some time and add some heat.... bearing eaten away.

nothing that can't be done but you have to know how. I would tell you if I knew but this is all they told me. I got this from kristof at steves vw shop.seems that he has the secret and will do the work, but no kiss and tell.jesse

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Baked Beetle on January 20, 2010, 00:40:59 AM

Johannes,

I really would like to know how that stock crank spins that high? I know everything is balanced but......not even counterweighted?

Can you fill me in on your choice as opposed to a DPR or CB performance crank? :D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on January 20, 2010, 16:18:45 PM

i think Johanes mentioned way back

the reason for counterweight.. is to aleviate the weight thrown by the rod journal,rods,pistons, etc

the lighter those parts are, the more reasonably counter'd the crank is

ofcourse being counterweighted as a crank would always be better,but im sure Johanes has matched every aspect of his motor, including weight of individual components to rpm relation..

his JE pistons are quite short as far as compression height goes, and its well.. almost half the weight of cast pistons or even less

plus the overall width of the motor is narrower..

anyways... im also still learning alot from these guys.. so i hope sum1 could clarify my words if ever im misunderstanding anything as far as JPM andoverall engine techniques hehehe

Ralf

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Baked Beetle on January 20, 2010, 19:17:10 PM

Very Good Points. all of them. I'm curious about the rpm limit of using a stock forged crank that has been balanced? Better than say a cheap $200cast crank or maybe just a s good as a 4140 CB 69mm crank.

I'm in the process of building something like this but don't want to throw expensive parts at a semi-grenade motor ;D





well i think its fine ( i hope haha)

im doing 2 motors (still gather parts)

1679cc thickwall88s69mm cb4140 crankengle 110kads

1800cc thickwall88s74mm cb4140 crankengle 120kads


well after watching the dyno video again and again. I just cannot believe that crank holds up to 9k rpms, even with the light reciprocating parts........

I wish someone else could chime in 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jon on January 22, 2010, 09:30:31 AM

I don't have the time to find the exact post or mail, but Johannes has shown me how the forces working on this crank a 9k is LESS than you will find ina normal 2332 setup @ I think it was 6 or 7k.Light and small parts helps a lot, some choices were also done to keep the total down.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 11:06:06 AM

its sumwer in the early pages of this thread,johanes noted the figures of weight..

from my understanding.. its like doing the "hammer" throw..

shorter hammer of the same weight (mouse motor JPM)longer hammer of the same weight (usual motors)

the shorter one will have less acting force on the thrower <-- crank

vs the long one..

add the light parts (JE pistons of JPM) i think its sumthing that is indeed possible and doable

just not viewed or seen thru the "common" eye i guess..

or not tried cuz sum1 already said "meh stroke that bish.. or big bore it " LOL

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Baked Beetle on January 22, 2010, 15:07:29 PM

Thanks JHU!

Yea your right RF, thats what I'm trying not to do. Not do the most 'common' thing. As soon as one person says "that cranks limit is 5k rpm' everyonestarts believing it even though it could essentially turn 7k all day long and the person never tested it at all. Damn internet sometimes is the cause formis-information. ::)

I've since found a set of JE 85.5 that weigh 335 versus the 418 grams of my oem KS pistons. that equates to 12 ounces less reciprocating weight justfrom the pistons. I'm thinking that is what Johannes pistons weigh in around.


re these the geers one? (or sachette) oh well one of th prostock guys LOL

JE 85.5 ? very nice..

i made a post in the cal look section and recieved ZERO feedback

asking about.. the givens like wiseco 94mm forgeds have gone down to sub 400$ mainly cuz some one had it done already and the fixtures andtooling and or cnc prog have been done at wiseco and so they can keep making them at a lower price(i know this is how it is fr another brand we specifically use for inline4's we order customs from)

i wonder how many people would actually like.. or is it juz not sumthing worth a bean

aftermarket (wiseco or other makers like JE) kind of 90.5mm B and A

thats lighter than the "off the shelf" products

that should sprout a sick lil 1776 hahaor a big rat 1904 or a big farm rat 2007cc

still within the mouse family? ;D




Post by: Clyde Berg on January 22, 2010, 18:52:00 PM

Here is a small motor thats really cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7J-3lkrBo

Clyde

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on January 22, 2010, 19:17:26 PM

Quote from: Baked Beetle on January 22, 2010, 15:07:29 PM

Thanks JHU!

Yea your right RF, thats what I'm trying not to do. Not do the most 'common' thing. As soon as one person says "that cranks limit is 5k rpm' everyone starts believing it eventhough it could essentially turn 7k all day long and the person never tested it at all. Damn internet sometimes is the cause for mis-information. ::)

I've since found a set of JE 85.5 that weigh 335 versus the 418 grams of my oem KS pistons. that equates to 12 ounces less reciprocating weight just from the pistons. I'mthinking that is what Johannes pistons weigh in around.

When i started building engines in 1980 i did some 1600 cc engines for street use up to 130 hp and 7000 rpm . We had no problems with the originalcranks . BUT , there were no conterweight cranks avaliable in Germany . We had some okrasa cranks which were too expensive for us ....Today i would use a conterweighted 69 mm crank over 6000 rpm's, but an original with welded conterweights on , so you can be shure it does notbend too much.

Udo


thats cool to know Udo..

btw do u stil have that old 88.5 or 89 piston set? LOL

clyde berg.. thats a nice smallie!!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on January 23, 2010, 08:21:02 AM

Quote from: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 20:00:04 PM

thats cool to know Udo..

btw do u stil have that old 88.5 or 89 piston set? LOL

clyde berg.. thats a nice smallie!!!

I have advertised the parts and did not get them sold . so i built an engine with all parts i had , made some nice 311 heads for it and got an 78,4x88,5engine together . I want to dynotest it the next weeks :) I drove it on the street in our black 67 and was much fun ...

Udo


pm me how much u would have sold them...

maybe u can remove them for me.. HAHAHA

i have a set of 88mm thickwalls.. i think having a set of 88.5s as extra is nice.. could use my barrels and bore n hone .5mm more when needed


so whats the rpm limit on my new in 88' BERG CW crank.... 8)

I love ebay. My karma came by to pay a visit tonight. POTL mahle pistons, CW crank, all bearings , rods and pressure plate........for cheap.


Better late than never, but here is a video clip of the moment the Raptor mouse was born. Enjoy!(assuming it works)

Peter

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_RaptorMouseedit1.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=RaptorMouseedit1.flv)


1795cc raptor mouse 1 minute and forty seconds old.

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_RaptorMouseedit2.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=RaptorMouseedit2.flv)






Ahh.. so refreshing to hear a mouse scream with fresh lungs. Thanks for posting!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Andrimot on February 04, 2010, 18:33:27 PM

the smile of the man "sound" better than the motor!! :)

amazing...

wish to hear on the car too.

Andreas

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Martin on February 04, 2010, 20:10:33 PM

how good does that sound! can't wait to hear it at the track

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on February 06, 2010, 20:20:50 PM

ok im experiencing a lil brainfart :D

how do u get 1795cc ? bore ? stroke?

hehe

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on February 07, 2010, 07:16:39 AM

Probably 91x69 (bored out 90.5 cylinders?)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on February 07, 2010, 09:55:07 AM

yeah thats the only value i got to reach the 1795cc number..

interesting.. would that be a JPM/JE custom piston?


Yes it is 69mm x 91mm, the same trick JP used with the 1603, to make sure the barrels are round and straight and honed correctly.

Yes again, the pistons are JP's spec from JE.

I will try and post a dyno run as well but given it took me this long to post the engine run up, don't hold your breath!

Peter


thanks peter,

very interesting,

i guess now i should start saving some used 85.5 barrels, and if i find some 90.5s

never know when an 86 or 91 become handily available ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 67-indeed/DVK on February 08, 2010, 15:42:50 PM

it can't be that the trick is in the pistons right? are those JE pistons that much lighter or something?


I think you'll find its actually a large combination of things that makes the difference, with small improvements made in all areas that amount tosomething more significant when combined. That said the pistons are lighter than standard, but more importantly in combination with the barrel sizeshape and surface, ring package pin height, and the like it does produce a good performance advantage over a stock combination, both in terms ofmaintaining good cylinder pressure and reducing friction.

JP would be the best person to answer in detail, but this is the basics as I understand them.

Peter


i think , its juz like running standard 94s vs 94mm wiseco's

the weight, and ring package alone should help a few ponies strut along..

thats 1 small factor.. in the whole "system" of an engine..



seeing JPM work hsi engines.. im sure theres like atleast 50dff factors working together to make the "system" scream...

i really wish there was demand for 90.5mm forged aftermarket pistons, im sure one of the companies like wiseco or CP or JE wont mind opening up anOTS offering for them..

and we can always buy 90.5 barrels too!


You can get 90,5 JE pistons that fit to the mahle cylinders ...Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on February 09, 2010, 00:16:58 AM

from who ? and how much are they Udo ?

btw have a pm for you.. regarding old german racing... wondering if u can help me out hehe

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on February 09, 2010, 00:34:10 AM

I have some 95 JEs in 95mm mahles For sale


Quote from: RFbuilt on February 09, 2010, 00:16:58 AM

from who ? and how much are they Udo ?

btw have a pm for you.. regarding old german racing... wondering if u can help me out hehe

You can get it from every company that sells je pistons as a special order . I also orderd some specials like 95 , 103.1 ....

Udo


while you're right Udo..

but tat costs "custom" prices lol

wat i meant was.. if we had more demands.. the wiseco 94s are around 350-400$ now since they actually offer it OTS (off the shelf)

we should have some in 90.5s that would be fun..

example, we use Arias pistons on our honda's for racing.. we order mostly custom stuffs, they told me we can get a custom set , if we order 5 sets and get it for the price of normal shelf pistons at 450$ , but then again.. i cannot afford 5 sets one time LOL


The 90,5x82 mahles are light and do their work . I think normaly there is no need for pistons like that except you want an engine like Johannes did.You can get them if you want , that's the main thing

Udo


yeah that does makes sense..

prolly xplains why we dont have that option in "forged" just custom orders

looks like the mahle's are more than up to the task

btw Udo thanks for the info regarding the rennkafer bug.. hehehe loved that bug!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on April 09, 2010, 08:14:52 AM

Sorry it took so long again, but here is one of many dyno pulls made.

Peter

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_MVI_0046.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=MVI_0046.flv)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on April 09, 2010, 16:01:07 PM

That sounds healthy!

You should post this clip in the turbo thread ;D




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benssp on April 10, 2010, 13:22:32 PM

Nice Feature on Pete Shattock's car in the new VolksWorld ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Martin on April 11, 2010, 09:19:17 AM

Cracking feature, Motor sounds awesome!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mymedusa on April 23, 2010, 18:32:43 PM

long time nothing new..so i will post the first startup of my mouse engine...a real tiny mouse ;)

36HP1192ccsingleportsinglecarb(harley CV)in the video 1/4-1/3 throttle max. because engine needs some brake in first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHScA1WVBeA

and my daily driver mouse1192cc 36hp with blower.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUuDKGd1mVE

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: speedwell on April 23, 2010, 21:06:12 PM

is it a pepco ???

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mymedusa on April 24, 2010, 07:52:11 AM

no.aisin + pci34 carbup to 1 bar of boost. ::)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: speedwell on April 24, 2010, 08:42:30 AM

is it possible to have closer pictures from the supercharger ???i never seen before one like this , who made them ???

thxfabs


for sure, i will make some new during the days, here an older one:http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8278/motor3n.jpgthe rest is bedder per pm because i don't want to spam this brilliant thread any more.all build at my own but for sure in memory to old pepco just way more boost.the other engine is also build as supercharged engine...carb is just for breakin time.don't find a good pic so fast:http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2076/80512876.jpg

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on April 27, 2010, 01:10:01 AM

Mymedusa,

Congratulations, I do really like those installations. Well done!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Ragtop on May 09, 2010, 10:21:22 AM

Yesterday a friend here in Turbotown took his 1641 turbo engine to the dyno. 354 rwhp at 1.9 bars. Not too bad :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: maX cal-look on May 10, 2010, 12:06:45 PM

Quote from: mymedusa on April 24, 2010, 09:14:32 AM

for sure, i will make some new during the days, here an older one:http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8278/motor3n.jpgthe rest is bedder per pm because i don't want to spam this brilliant thread any more.all build at my own but for sure in memory to old pepco just way more boost.the other engine is also build as supercharged engine...carb is just for breakin time.don't find a good pic so fast:http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2076/80512876.jpg

Realy nice motor, love that's Too ! ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on May 10, 2010, 12:43:27 PM




Quote from: Ragtop on May 09, 2010, 10:21:22 AM


Not bad at all. More info please.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Ragtop on May 10, 2010, 13:48:02 PM

Quote from: BeetleBug on May 10, 2010, 12:43:27 PM

Quote from: Ragtop on May 09, 2010, 10:21:22 AM


Not bad at all. More info please.

Specen:single relief case.Orginal crank,8 dowels, not balancedCB h-profilMahle forged 87mm pistonsCamshaft, well nothing exotic FK something...Scat 1.4:1 CromolypushrodsOriginal heads, welded and ported, BUT original valves 35/32,5 HX-35 turbo 56mm in1600cc injectorsDouble 984 pumpsE85Autronic SM4

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on May 12, 2010, 05:26:41 AM

New motor 60x95 238.78 so far, It will be on the dyno for days. Brian

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on May 12, 2010, 08:35:14 AM

Brian,

I like the bore to stroke ratio! Nice to see you using a good quality thick wall stable cylinder too.

If your prepared to share the information, what is your peak torque figure and RPM and max power RPM?

Good luck with the HP hunt, but its a great result to date.

Will you be running this in your G dragster?

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Crazy Mc.Stairs on May 12, 2010, 18:25:23 PM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on April 09, 2010, 08:14:52 AM

Sorry it took so long again, but here is one of many dyno pulls made.

Peter

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_MVI_0046.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=MVI_0046.flv)

Damn I love that sound! ;) It makes me thinking of my old little engine! ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Taylor on May 13, 2010, 02:42:46 AM

What's with the spider humping your motor Brian? :D ;D Good power though. Taylor

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on May 14, 2010, 09:33:36 AM

Well, I've had my first few drives in the car with the new motor, and I have to say it is amazingly smooth and very well behaved around town, withvery good throttle response from low RPM, in fact it feels more like an EFI engine than a IDA motor. There is none of the small engine light parts issueswhich some people talk about either! All in all my initial impression is that its drives very well and street diving to date has been fantastic and needlessto say it’s just great to drive the car again.

The air temperature is still cold here and I’ve only been on short (15 minute) runs so far but all signs look good with oil temp at less than 80 degreesstill! The heads certainly seam very cool if the temperature of the tin ware is anything to go by (I don't have cylinder temperature gauges).

I've driven to work today as it’s a nice sunny day so I can enjoy a drive at lunchtime so there's not much chance of getting much work done today!

As for the performance it certainly feels very quick but to be honest the same could be said of the old engine after the 5-6 months off over the winterdriving a diesel Polo. That said the low rpm pick up is significantly different, as you had to keep the old motor on the boil for it to fly but this one israring to go right from low RPM.

I have a couple of weeks now before the first race of the year so I hope to get some good street miles in between now and then to check all is wellover longer distances and generally get the hang of driving the car again. Needless to say there are a few other little jobs to attend to as therealways is, which I hope to do over the next couple of weeks, if I can stop driving the car!

Its all to easy to forget that's what its all about, having fun and driving the car, and it certainly is fun, so perhaps those little jobs can wait!

Peter








Post by: Zach Gomulka on May 14, 2010, 15:50:54 PM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on May 14, 2010, 09:33:36 AM

There is none of the small engine light parts issues which some people talk about either!

Please elaborate...

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on May 14, 2010, 22:46:14 PM

Hi Zach,

I was meaning that I know a number of people earlier in this tread I think, suggested there may be problems with running light parts, particularlyflywheels, in terms of drivability. Needless to say I'm sure this is true at some point. You just have to look at F1 cars trying to get out of the pit box,but I think the combination would need to be genuinely extreme if this new engine is anything to go by. I think by most peoples standards this enginewould be considered, as fairly extreme by n/a VW street car standards, but in this combination in my car which is admitidly light (1500lbs when I'm init) there is no problem at all (stock ratio first and second gear on a 4.25 rp). To be honest its ridiculously drivable.

I went for a longer drive today and temps wise it certainly looks good, but as I said in my last post its not too warm here!

But following my little lunchtime razz around I can definitely confirm one thing. Happiness is a hot VW!

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: deanosvws on May 14, 2010, 23:38:57 PM

sunny day, fast bug, ida's, brms, can't imagine why you didnt get much work done!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: All Torque on May 15, 2010, 21:02:17 PM

Your new motor sounds fantastic Pete! I can't wait to see it race at Shakey in a couple of weeks. Congrats on a seriously cool project 8)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on May 17, 2010, 14:50:43 PM

Dean, your bang on! I had the Ida's ringing in my head all afternoon, and I don't mind the Erco's but you can't beat rolling on BRM's.

Thanks Matt although its Johannes we need to thank for the noise, I know I'm bound to be biased but I have to agree it does sound a bit good!

Mind you whilst we are doing a bit of back slapping I dont supose I'm the only one looking forward to seeing your car run in a couple of weeks with600+hp!

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Tom G. on May 23, 2010, 11:51:05 AM

Quote from: mymedusa on April 23, 2010, 18:32:43 PM

long time nothing new..so i will post the first startup of my mouse engine...a real tiny mouse ;)

36HP1192ccsingleportsinglecarb(harley CV)in the video 1/4-1/3 throttle max. because engine needs some brake in first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHScA1WVBeA

and my daily driver mouse1192cc 36hp with blower.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUuDKGd1mVE

So COOL ;D ;D the sounds of both engines is awesome!!! these little 36HP monsters!!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mymedusa on May 29, 2010, 17:18:24 PM

a bit more spam...more blown 36er..without fan because it need new bearings.(preA porsche 356)(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4570/dsc0457o.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/dsc0457o.jpg/)(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2236/dsc0456o.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/dsc0456o.jpg/)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbJr_zlifeMits not really shown in the handy video, but the throttle response is pretty good.

@TomGit is time that your tiny monster is ready ...come on.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on June 04, 2010, 14:07:21 PM

Well what a weekend! I’ve finally got to run the car down the track with the new motor. But first of all the drive to the track. Its just under 110 milesto the track from home and the drive there was all fine, and I’m not joking when I say the only temperature problems were getting the oil temperatureup as driving at 4000rpm the max oil temp I got on the gauge was 80 degrees. Better still I turned up at the gate moments before Andy Marriott did inhis hot 1914cc n/a street car so we drove into the Outlaw pits for the weekend in formation.

Given the gearbox in the car was designed to suit my old engine I was a little paranoid about breaking it, so I ran for the first day on MH street tireswhich netted me a best of 11.87 at just over 113mph which I was very pleased with as it beat my previous PB on slicks and all I did when I arrivedwas change the oil check the valve clearances, take the fan belt off and the deck lid so I could film what was going on of in the engine bay off theline. At the end of the day I ran one 1/8th mile pass with slicks as there was a big cross wind and there had been a few incidents earlier in the day,which netted me a promising looking 1/8th mile time to build on the following day. Day 2 of racing I ran with the slicks and ran a number of 11.6…. second passes with a best of 11.60 again just over 113mph. that’s over 3 10ths of mybest previous ET. I had a number of problems with the car, and my driving over the weekend, so I’ve got a list of things to do now before I race again





in July.

The drive home again on the Sunday night was great, as it was a nice sunny evening and again the car was just running really sweet, and I got homein good time with no problems. For those of you who drive your cars to and from the track, you’ll understand there is a great feeling pulling on to thedrive at home and clicking the motor off having had a great weekend with the car and a bunch of mates, there really is nothing much better!

I have to say a big thanks to Johannes, as true to his word (as ever), the motor has been fine on the street and even better on the track. I just needto get my self and the car in order to really do it justice now!

Peter.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benssp on June 04, 2010, 14:29:07 PM

Well done Pete/Johannes, I'm sure there's a lot more in it plus it sounds awesome ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: All Torque on June 04, 2010, 17:31:33 PM

Second what Ben says! The car sounds absolutely amazing and is a credit to both of you! Pete's motor is the closest I have ever heard a VW motorsound like a sports bike! Simply aural sex ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: bob_8 on July 23, 2010, 02:54:55 AM

I'm from Brazil, we are discussing about these engines, are sensational congratulations, here in Brazil has no engines of this type, usually only putcrankshaft stroke and piston MAHLE great big (and heavy). the power drawn from these engines are really impressive'm crazy for vw bug especially byour dear aircooled.aware of our forum and www.forumfuscabrasil.com.br www.fusca4ever.com.br

Sorry for my English, whom you write is the google translator: P

Take care everyone.Adriano.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: andy M. on July 23, 2010, 19:19:33 PM

I see that Mr Shattock has just run a 11.33 @ 119mph at bug jam with his mouse motor, good work!!

andy

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Paul Bate on July 25, 2010, 22:16:51 PM

Hello Peter,

I got to say what an exceptional time by any standard for a naturally aspirated car!!

Regardless of taking into account that it's driven to the track and is 1798CC !

Superb job Peter and all others involved!

Paul

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Corally on July 26, 2010, 17:00:23 PM

Quote

For those of you who drive your cars to and from the track, you’ll understand there is a great feeling pulling on to the drive at home and clicking the motor off having had a greatweekend with the car and a bunch of mates, there really is nothing much better!

Feels great indeed! Disadvantage is that i'm usually deafend by the engine sound on such long drives ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on July 28, 2010, 08:09:53 AM

Well I've just had another great if slightly shorter than planned weekend of racing this last weekend to see if my tinkering over the last few weeks hadresolved the problems I had with the clutch and suspension last time out. Unfortunately it was clear after the 1st run that the clutch was still not up to the job, so it was only a matter of time before it gave out. Worse still itwas also clear that I had not resolved my suspension problems either. Fortunately I had enough options at the track with the parts I'd taken toresolve the suspension issues, which gave me the chance to see what difference the new gearbox ratios had made, whilst I still had a clutch!

With sorted suspension and the new gearbox ratios the car ran 3 consecutive 11.3…. quarter miles with a best of 11.32 @116mph (not 119mph asstated earlier).

Needless to say I was very happy with this, and once again have to say a massive thanks to all of those that have helped me, particularly Peter atCogbox in this case (who didn't go to the Brit F1 GP to finish my gearbox so I could race this weekend), Ian and Lee for the help and advice at thetrack and of course Johannes, for a little 1795cc engine which defies belief! I had several people come up to me at the weekend and say they couldnot believe a flat four could make that sort of noise!

I left the track on Sat night once I knew the clutch was finished for racing but still drivable, and had a great drive home with next to no traffic andgot home in record time, unlike the journey to the track in torrential rain and horrible traffic. I took a little de tour on the way home as there's a nicestraight road with a few sets of traffic lights close to home, just so I could use up the last of the clutch centre plate, but as ever pulling up on thedrive at home and clicking the motor off was a great feeling after a weekend of racing I wont forget for a while! I took the motor out on Sunday and the centre plate was almost 2.5mm thinner than it was when I put it in there before the race, but I have apossible solution to try at the next race at the end of August, so fingers crossed it will work this time!

Lee has some film footage of a couple of the runs which I will try and post but as ever it will no doubt take me ages so don't hold your breath.

Tanks Andy and Paulfor the encouragement and Corally ear plugs are definitely the way forward!



Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: colin jardine on July 28, 2010, 10:59:18 AM

Nice catching up with you again at Bug Jam Pete, impressive stuff coming from your car with the little motor. Oh, and earplugs are an essential itemon the street i reckon :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: delroyb on August 19, 2010, 13:32:54 PM

Ok this may have been mentioned already but the best of the formula bee boys are squeezing up to 130-140 bypass from a 1300 single port andengines that can last a season putting out 110. And they have too keep a lot of vw parts

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: delroyb on August 19, 2010, 13:36:44 PM

Sorry that was supposed to be formula vee and bhp not bypass. Stupid predictive text

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on September 07, 2010, 23:35:12 PM

A brief update. My last visit to the track with the new motor did not exactly go to plan, as I was still struggling with clutch issues, but did run acouple of 11.50's (which amazingly feels slow now!), the best being a 50 flat, so there was no improvement on my previous speed or et. The clutchcenter plate let go on the 3rd pass on Saturday, but thanks to Ian WPS for an express road trip to Cogbox and Peter's help to make up a new centerplate we made it back to the track with the bits to fix the car for Sunday.Adele and I ran on the Sunday as the first pair after the rain in the morning, and I'm sure most of you know what happened next, but as the othershave said the main thing was that Adele was OK.

My next and last outing this year is DDD8, which I'm hoping will be a lot less eventfull than the last race! I'm not going to drive the car there, buthopefully I can have my fun on the track and perhaps a quick razz on the roads around Bitburg.

Peter


Well this is the final instalment from me for a while. DDD8 was a great weekend and to be honest I don't think I've had such a good weekend beforerunning at best 2/10ths of my et, and it took me right until the last run of the weekend to get that close. As has become the norm the clutch gave upon Sat afternoon, but thanks to Ian (WPS) we got the motor out, clutch sorted, and back in, just in time to catch the last of the DAS barbequehospitality that evening. After chasing a good set up for a few runs, the car ran from 11.8 something to an 11.52 last run.

So the car ends the year with a best et of 11.315 at 116mph (no fan belt on slicks, with a muffler on super unleaded pump fuel) from around 25passes and just over 1000 street miles. Needless to say 1000 miles is not much for a street car, but unfortunately my time for regular street miles islimited, due to other commitments. The only problems I have had, have been clutch related (one centre disc per meeting), but fingers crossed the lastset up we tried for Sunday at DDD appears to be holding up well, so we may have found something which works now. I hope to put some more streetmiles on the car now that the years racing is over for me, and just enjoy buzzing round some of the nice local country roads before the weather reallyturns for the worst.

Suffice to say its been a great year and the car has been fast and reliable on the street and track, its sat in traffic jams and not got hot, done 500-600 miles of motorway driving and knocked 6 tenths of a second of my previous PB, it even gave between 25 and 30mpg on the drives to the track, soit really has done everything I could have asked for, and all from 1795cc.

So that just leaves me to say thanks to all those who have helped me this year and in particular Ian at WPS, Peter at Cogbox, Dave Dinning, LeeMaynard, and of course Johannes at JPM for what has proved to be a ridiculously good little motor for the street and strip.

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Pas on September 22, 2010, 23:29:04 PM

Excellent summary Peter, roll on 2011.

Long live the mouse motors !!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: didi on September 23, 2010, 19:20:08 PM

peter, it was realy impressive to see you running at ddd8! your new small mouse motor sounds and run great.cool that some members from the outlaw's are coming again to bitburg.

didi

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:38:23 PM

;)


;)


;)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: kaferboy on September 24, 2010, 13:29:30 PM

Awesome work as always Peter....

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on September 26, 2010, 00:38:17 AM

Quote from: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:38:23 PM

;)

Awesome car - glad I had a chance to have a quick chat with Pete and Ian on Saturday night (sorry if I was a little drunk!) Loving the tinware by theway pete ;)


Thanks for the kind comments all, DDD8 was a great end to a great year of racing for me, I just have my fingers crossed the event will run again nextyear. I think there might be a few more Outlaw's there next year, but it does clash with an event the same weekend in the UK as a general rule, whichis why we haven't attended in greater numbers over recent years. I think its fair to say this years event sparked a flame for a few of us though, as itsa great hardcore VW event with like minded people from all over attending, and the quality of cars as well as the quantity is as good as I've seen inone place.

I know there are a few other small motors being built out there, so hopefully there will be more updates on this thread over the winter and next year,with others flying the flag for the mouse motor, and needless to say I'm sure those that are out there allready will be thinking about winter tinkeringplans. Roll on the 2011 race season!

Peter


Hello there,

Just a dyno pull of my 1915.69mm DemelloJE pistons5.4" rodsMS230 46x36 valves11.2:1C/RRaptor valvetrainF1 throttle bodiesMotec M4 ecu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0o4Yt6ew1M

Will soon be updated with raised c/r, top shot injectors and new header.

/Johannes Persson


Give us some numbers!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jim Ratto on October 14, 2010, 18:10:06 PM


Hello guys,





Johannes Persson

This is amazing and great news for keeping air cooled following interested and learning. Congratulations and thank you! :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jim Ratto on October 14, 2010, 18:11:15 PM

Peter congratulations on your motor, seems it is best of "both worlds" and the motor I dream about at night.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: volkskris on October 14, 2010, 20:43:15 PM

Quote from: Zach Gomulka on October 14, 2010, 17:58:41 PM

Give us some numbers!

248 @ 8900rpm, found on the JPM dyno day thread ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Airspeed on October 14, 2010, 21:27:42 PM






9700 RPM! :o Bloody h*ll !

What oiling mods have you done to keep the bearings ok at that rpm Johannes?


Holy hell!! :o

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on October 15, 2010, 07:34:02 AM

That is what I call a proper wake up call!

Johannes, thank you for taking the time to share your ideas and thoughts with the rest of us.

Best rgsBB


Hello,

This engine was built for at least 4 years ago as an R&D project.It is designed to have peak power at 9000rpm and 14bar bmep, if I can hit this goals it will pump out 265hp or 138.4hp/lit.Only small changes has been made since first build, it has mostly been sitting on my shelf but the plan is to race the engine for next season.

The pulls on the video is up to 9700rpm where the rew limiter kicks in, the power is 248hp at 8900rpm.No special oiling mods are done, just ordinary full flow with 26mm pump and oil return into main gallery.

New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.There was also a 8hp increase at 7000rpm, I have only made the calibration of A/F maybe some improvements could be expected from calibration ofthe ignition curve which I will do the next days.

Next change will be "top shot" injectors, after that a custom made piston, which will raise the comp ratio to hopefully about 13:1.I still have 13hp up to reach target, a 3-4% increase could be expected going from 11.2-13:1 in CR.

BTW I only use my std size OTEVA75 dual springs, valve lift is 16.3mm(0.641").

/Johannes



New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.

Congratulations Johannes! Exhausts is a interesting topic, and four horses at that level is a great achievement!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Eddie on October 18, 2010, 08:04:18 AM


Hello,



New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.There was also a 8hp increase at 7000rpm, I have only made the calibration of A/F maybe some improvements could be expected from calibration of the ignition curve which I willdo the next days.



/Johannes

It is so cool to read these posts and those numbers are just mind blowing, 9700RPMsMuch respect Johannes.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on October 18, 2010, 11:02:17 AM


Hello,






/Johannes






Seriously coool stuff ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: JIMP on October 18, 2010, 14:18:58 PM

Hello Johannes

just a small question, in that video with those rpm you use the tappered aluminum pushrods or the "std" chromoly ones?

Thanks in advance

Dimitrios

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Shag55 on October 19, 2010, 21:36:12 PM

Bad a$$ man! what is the spring rate for those springs? Are they simaler to the CB 650s? If you don't mind how big is the cam on this new motor,@.050 and lift @ cam?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Carsten on October 20, 2010, 08:26:49 AM

;D ;D ;D ;D Great !

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on October 20, 2010, 13:08:51 PM

Quote from: Atom Heart Mother on October 14, 2010, 18:11:15 PM

Peter congratulations on your motor, seems it is best of "both worlds" and the motor I dream about at night.

Thanks, although its Johannes we are thanking here. What you say is a good reminder actually, I’m sure it’s a human nature thing, but I’ve a terriblehabit of not realizing or being grateful for what I’ve got. But as you say it is the thing of dreams really. It was not long ago, that if I’d been told thecar could do what it has done this year, both on the street and the track, I would not have believed it!

Its interesting that after all these years of driving and racing the car, the 6 tenths faster that it ran this year relative to my previous years PB, is thebiggest single leap the car has made. The engine is a little bigger, and in previous years I had purposely been making smaller steps to measure theimprovement in a more measured way, rather than changing a load of things at once. None the less, I was definitely trying to go faster, and to havecome this far, then to take of 6 tenths in one year, and if anything found it easier to drive on the street, is still amazing to me. The strange thing is Inow know that it can be even better, but I suppose there will always be room for improvement.

I do have this horrible sinking feeling that my trips to Sweden over the last couple of years were the first of many, rather than the first and last. I’vecertainly found Johannes’s enthusiasm for all things performance very infectious, regardless of his clear skill and ability, and in many respects it’s agreat relief to me that he lives miles away, as the distraction would be even worse than it already is!. I’ve enough trouble keeping the home / work /car balance in check with all the other local VW friends and racers I know as it is!

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Shag55 on October 20, 2010, 16:30:29 PM

I've been wanting to build a small-ish motor for some time now to make big HP up high. A 74x94 with 5.325 Eagle rods and JE skeletor pistons andasset of really short barells I have. The heads are 44x35.5 with tai valves, 7deg tai keepers and PSI springs and tight chambers, deck not cut yet. Theports are simaler to Chung Woo design the exhausts are smaller but should net a good I/E ratio. Berg 1.45 rockers and DT pushrods. The cam is up inthe air as of yet but one grind in mind has 278 [email protected] and .422 lift its a vary aggressive profile. Header will be a 1 5/8 steped to 1 3/4 but lengthnot yet determined asim not good with calculations. Plans were to get it to 8-10k and in the 240Hp range. Any suggestions for the cam would beappreciated Johnnes. Shag


Hello Shag,

The OTEVA75 springs I use in my 1915 has 150-160lbs installed pressure and 350-360lbs at over the nose. The cam is one of my Raptors which has 280+ deg at 0.05" and about .430 lift.All my Raptors are brand new profiles, no copies from V8 or others.They have all been designed to suit the valvetrain of acvw, that is why it's possible to reduce the spring pressure.I design the valve lift profile in a very advanced computer software and from that file created the lobe is cnc machined.That means that I can design a custom grind for a special performance goal and combo like yours in very short lead time and a fair price.Most cam grinders copies a "master lobe" when grinding cams, to make a new master lobe is very expensive.I don't have to do that when dealing with cnc grinding.

Send me an email and we can talk about it.

/Johannes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Eddie on October 23, 2010, 07:03:39 AM


Hello Shag,

The OTEVA75 springs I use in my 1915 has 150-160lbs installed pressure and 350-360lbs at over the nose. The cam is one of my Raptors which has 280+ deg at 0.05" and about .430 lift.All my Raptors are brand new profiles, no copies from V8 or others.They have all been designed to suit the valvetrain of acvw, that is why it's possible to reduce the spring pressure.I design the valve lift profile in a very advanced computer software and from that file created the lobe is cnc machined.That means that I can design a custom grind for a special performance goal and combo like yours in very short lead time and a fair price.Most cam grinders copies a "master lobe" when grinding cams, to make a new master lobe is very expensive.I don't have to do that when dealing with cnc grinding.





Send me an email and we can talk about it.

/Johannes

Johannes, maybe a change you are going to make Type 4 cams in the future?

Kind Regards Edgar

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Arnoud on October 23, 2010, 10:03:29 AM

And make a autobahnproof highperformance type4 head while you're at it ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: JIMP on October 25, 2010, 13:49:21 PM

Hello Edgar

send Johannes an e-mail, he does them anyway if he finds the blanks, he did for me recently a T4 turbo cam

Friendly

Dimitrios

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Harry/FDK on October 26, 2010, 19:13:40 PM

Quote from: Arnoud on October 23, 2010, 10:03:29 AM

And make a autobahnproof highperformance type4 head while you're at it ;D

Hmm.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: SSRT on November 11, 2010, 19:48:27 PM


Hello,






/Johannes

Really looking forward to see the result of these changes,- anyway very inpressive numbers as usual!!!Good luck!

SS


Looks like we have another mid 10 sec. car for next year :)

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mast on November 16, 2010, 17:36:59 PM

edit

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: vintagewagenwerks on November 26, 2010, 13:42:10 PM

The hearing of the number 9600rpm is unbelievable but i know that engines can do this,i feel very scary when my 2007cc engine runs over 5000rpm,because the noise goes through your brain.Respect for driving at this rpm.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: reijo5 on November 27, 2010, 16:23:33 PM


Hello there,









/Johannes Persson

Wooo that sounds fantastic, great work


Quote from: vintagewagenwerks on November 26, 2010, 13:42:10 PM

The hearing of the number 9600rpm is unbelievable but i know that engines can do this,i feel very scary when my 2007cc engine runs over 5000rpm ,because the noise goesthrough your brain.Respect for driving at this rpm.

Don't worry about it . this is not a small , but 2,4cc at 9000 :-)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-r9sIim460

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: TSAF on December 21, 2010, 15:57:17 PM

One quick question

I am thinking of building a new stronger engine for my 1964 beetle FIA approved rally car (http://www.rallybugs.com/CSBeetle.htm). Currently the carhas a 1300cc engine which is quite strong but not as strong as the one I am thinking of. I would like to create a replica of the Swedish 1200s like theones on the attachment. These are the Swedish VW 1200s, fitted with 1300 cc Okrasa (Oettinger) engines, Porsche 356 brake drums, plexi-glasswindows, 84 liter petrol tanks. These cars were used in the 1964 Spa-Sofia-Liege Marathon race. I have bought the 356 brakes, bought the plexi-glasswindows from a company in the UK (http://www.plastics4performance.com/), already bought a new ATL tank and much more, new bucket seats,. Thepoint is to build an engine that will have an output close to 110-115bhp with max rpm 6500 and a gearbox that will keep the engine in the power allthe time.

There is a circuit racer in Britain from the just campers team that is a 1300 with power output of 140bhp, but this engine will not be suitable forrallying. All ideas are welcome


I have a customer in greece that has built an 1300 engine for rally racing . He got the heads and cam from me and has dynoed strong 130 hp . I thinkit is a good result for an engine that makes power in all rpm ranges and has good torque . So i think it is no problem

Udo


I have the first Dyno numbesr for the 1670cc 250hp and the FI is next.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on December 22, 2010, 11:55:25 AM

Quote from: Udo on December 21, 2010, 18:37:17 PM

I have a customer in greece that has built an 1300 engine for rally racing . He got the heads and cam from me and has dynoed strong 130 hp . I think it is a good result for anengine that makes power in all rpm ranges and has good torque . So i think it is no problem

Udo

thats some very nice numbers Udo..

and seeing it is rally use... that's some good longevity there

id bet its pure heaven to use on the street

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: TSAF on December 22, 2010, 12:43:11 PM

Quote from: Udo on December 21, 2010, 18:37:17 PM

I have a customer in greece that has built an 1300 engine for rally racing . He got the heads and cam from me and has dynoed strong 130 hp . I think it is a good result for anengine that makes power in all rpm ranges and has good torque . So i think it is no problem

Udo

Udo we are your customer in Greece (http://www.rallybugs.com/CSBeetle.htm). A friend of ours is using the heads you made and your cam on his racecar. The car is a 1970 model and not a 1964 like the one I am thinking of. Originally with Udos set up the engine made 90bhp on the dyno. Andreas though re-worked the chambers and changed the timing of the cam. After a lot of work, and a lot of trials the engine made a healthy 130bhp at 6850rpm. Andreas also changed the combination of stroke and bore. The car has made 3 FIA races with very good results. This year a new gearbox willfollow that will suit the engine a lot better.


Ok , looked like you came from italy ...

I know another story but it is ok

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on December 22, 2010, 20:45:04 PM








:o

Is that the 4 cam version brian?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: cbigpwr on December 23, 2010, 18:46:41 PM



Are you going to hit the track in 2011?

Anthony D&A Racing


yes

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: cbigpwr on December 24, 2010, 05:59:17 AM

Cool, can't wait to see it run.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on January 03, 2011, 16:22:51 PM

Better late than never, hopefully below you'll see a short clip of one of the 11.3's from Bugjam last year (thanks Frau) its not quite the best run, butyou get the idea. For info the smoke off the line was clutch not tires, which gives you an idea why I had to change a centre disk at or after each ofthe 4 mettings I did this year.

Happy New Year All.

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_bugjam2010008.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=bugjam2010008.mp4)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benssp on January 03, 2011, 18:08:58 PM

I'm kind of missing that clutch smell which accompanied meal times at the track ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Bernard Newbury on January 03, 2011, 21:00:24 PM

Quote from: benssp on January 03, 2011, 18:08:58 PM


Or even missing meals while changing clutchs/pressure plates ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: H67bug on January 03, 2011, 21:16:35 PM

That looks/ sounds so crisp and straight!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Pas on January 03, 2011, 22:58:50 PM

Quote from: Bernard Newbury on January 03, 2011, 21:00:24 PM

Quote from: benssp on January 03, 2011, 18:08:58 PM


Or even missing meals while changing clutchs/pressure plates ;)

Sounds like someone needs their own BBQ chef ;D

The car looks and sounds awesome Peter, roll on this years racing season ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mrmut on June 08, 2011, 22:38:47 PM


Hello there,




/Johannes Persson

Does the input valve is close to the cylinder.









Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on September 15, 2011, 15:40:36 PM

greetings everyone once again ;)

looking at the masterppiece that mr. johannes has designedthe mouse 1603cc motor,

ofcourse power is not even a question based on the results, it made tons of it :)and driveability is ideal too i suppose...

i have an odd question, hopefully udo or jpm, or any of our seasoned builders can clarify

with the aproach of the mouse 1603cc motor, lets say.. adjust the cam and compression to suit a circuit application will the non counterweighted crank, using super light JE pistons be ok to use in sustained high rpm ?

i know drag use is alot different when ur turning into a mild curve into a long straight where u are atleast 5-10secs in full throttle above 6k rpm , would the non counterweighted fullybalanced crank and itnernals with JE pistons be ok?

or is it best to go with a cw 69 in this instance of application?

thanks guys

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on September 15, 2011, 17:15:53 PM

I would go with an original conterweighted crank . But the more important thing is the ballancing, we did highspeed balancing úp to 8000 rpm on allrace engines during the last years . It makes the crank live longer and i think it does not flex as much as it does before . Up to 7000 an ogininal crankis ok

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on September 15, 2011, 21:16:51 PM

Thanks udo ! Such an amazing source of knowledge you are :)

But to clarifiy "original counterweight" u mean welded like DPR?

Yes sir we balance all our internals on a schenk engine balance machine :)

Lastly u mention on an "original" crank when fully balanced it is ok to 7,000 rpm it doesnt suffer flex as muchDid u mean original non welded counterweight? As u mentioned for counterweighted it is safe up to 8,000rpm

Thank you

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Udo on September 16, 2011, 05:59:48 AM

All yes , this is what i found out . In the earlier days we used original non conterweight for our race engines up to 7000 with no problems.

Udo

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on September 16, 2011, 09:58:47 AM

thank you Udo! i may have to try this :) with an autocross/circuit project hehehe

thanks for sharing your valuable experience ! specially in circuit racing from before

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: speed7 on September 20, 2011, 02:19:24 AM

I've been running a 1776cc street /strip engine for a couple of years now and it's still going very strong.I use the car as a daily on a regular base and racing it in weekends.It's a full steel 73 car and I'm running an ET of 14.5 @91 mph .(slicks and short 3/4)Engine has an estimated 125 hp and is built with a CW crank 69 , std rods , Cima Mahle 90.5 A kit and a Webcam dual lobe cam.The heads are 041 with 40x35.5 ported by Steve' Heads and 48 IDa carbs.The whole engine was planned as a streetable engine with good response at lower Rpms and still get good top performance.I generally set the RPM limitor at 7600 rpm for racing .

I agree with Udo , that to make an engine "drehfreudig" and get high rpms easily is to give it a very good balancing .

Well ,hope to see you all (most of you ...) in Bitburg next WE .

Greetz - Marc

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: RFbuilt on September 20, 2011, 08:36:18 AM

sounds like u have a nice super streetable 1776! :) full weight bug.. excellent

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: johnbitch on October 13, 2011, 20:09:15 PM

Awesome thread. I love small engines.



Here is a short vid of my 12oocc, maybe one or two of you lke it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh03Wqh4AOM

cheers Jan

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mr horsepower on October 13, 2011, 20:29:43 PM

you need shorter gears.for the rest is sounds awsome

gr henri

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: johnbitch on October 14, 2011, 08:52:52 AM

Thank you for that.

The video was taken with a stock german 12oocc transmission.

Next year I want to race the engine with a mexican 1600i tranny, which is, as far as i know, shorter than the above mentioned.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: andy198712 on May 04, 2012, 21:30:27 PM

i thought the 1200's all had really short boxes, mine does ::) bit of a pain to drive above 50mph!

has anyone seen the 1200 power contest? winner was around 150bhp at the wheels

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school : Crank LighteningPost by: dangerous on May 06, 2012, 00:43:08 AM

Here are some photos of the jigs and crank for my friend Stanley's mouse motor:

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012001.jpg)







Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on May 06, 2012, 00:46:06 AM





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Andrimot on May 19, 2012, 18:40:52 PM

Nice!

would it be more?

Andreas

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on May 24, 2012, 20:53:37 PM

Quote from: Andrimot on May 19, 2012, 18:40:52 PM

Nice!

would it be more?

Andreas

More?Could I take off more? Yes. But this will do this time around.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BeetleBug on May 25, 2012, 07:37:35 AM

Thanks for sharing David!

A little mouse was dancing with the dyna packs last week:




WHP:

[attachment=1]

-BB-

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: richie on May 25, 2012, 08:09:49 AM

Kalle,

Nice so it works then ;)

cheers richie

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mrmut on May 25, 2012, 18:58:18 PM

long time follow what makes Kalle this project was followed out much HP and Nm , but one interested that camshaft of Raptor and which turbo toachieve this ???

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Andrimot on June 02, 2012, 18:44:09 PM

Nice job!

But why on a turbo motor?

Andreas

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mr horsepower on June 06, 2012, 19:29:33 PM

Hi loungers i hope this is the right topic to ask my question.A few jears ago i got hold of a pair of solex 40 pt-4 carbs and intakes they were verry worn out .But i liked the way the were worked by hand some body had a hard time on them .I think the came from a old autocross or rally engine i liked that just to own it4 jears later a buddy of mine got hold of a set of hand worked old race headsThey have 40mm intake and 32 ex valve he told me ill could use them to make and engine for display with it nice i thougedwhen we looked at the heads and the intake i sayed the look the same as my old school carb/intake set So i pulled the carbs out of the dust and placed them on the heads And then the amezing came .The match the same as dna on peolpe!!! wauw!I thouged thats cool ,So my buddy says lets put then on a flowbench just for fun and the turned out to flow 160 hp!!But i i consider them to far worn out to use But i have an 1956 ragtop oval bug that needs a bigger engine and i like old school And i gonna try to rebirth the old engine parts, But there are cracks in the heads and now i want to now can the be saved i hope so.Can someone give me advice on that i don t want to use new parts only period time parts and work to keep it originel and give the builder respectbecause for me its a part of history that i want to restore Here are some pics

gr henri

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: All Torque on June 17, 2012, 08:38:03 AM

You gotta love that crank jig setup... Very cool! 8)


Quote from: All Torque on June 17, 2012, 08:38:03 AM

You gotta love that crank jig setup... Very cool! 8)

I was thinking the very same thing dude :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Lids on August 20, 2012, 23:02:43 PM

The next challenge: http://www.saltflats.com/36_HP.html

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Frallan on August 23, 2012, 19:14:43 PM

1655cc and 255hp at 10.600 rpm....http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php/topic,14319.0.html

Cool.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: peejke on November 09, 2012, 21:27:13 PM

I drive a hot 1776 engine for 4 years now in my '57 single cab, it uses 40IDF's, a counterweight gene berg crankshaft, autocraft rockers, gene bergcamshaft,...CB 044 CNC round port heads,kennedy stage 1, csp phyton exhaustThe thing is...when we where putting it together I checkt the GB camshaft number, but forgot to write it down, I know I looked it up and it said, mildlywild, for streetuse,...Anybody any idea witch berg camshaft it is??




I'm planning to put the engine in my bug so the engine can finaly be put to the test, cause the high reving nature of the engine is no good match withmy heavy bus.With the right gearbox it takes my bus under 18sec. Even with the tarp on.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: peejke on November 20, 2012, 15:50:22 PM

Its prob. a GB297 , same as engle W110.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: ida2332cc on January 28, 2013, 04:53:26 AM

wow this thread is awesome. have been loving reading it. i personally love the mouse motors.i built a 1835cc mouse motor about 12 years ago running a best of 13.01 at 98mph.with a stock 1300 gearbox. i will be building it up again this time with a box with better gearing.specs on mine were as21 case cleaned and de burred and all sharp edges raidiused.69mm crank from 1300cc engine. I lightened and polished it. ( lot of ours) & not counterweightedstock rods lightened and polished.mahle 92mm piston and barrels. lighted and notched for valve clearence. lightend vw flywheel then bottom end was balanced.cam was a grind of my own spec which i wont give details on.(sorry)heads were 044s 40mm inlet 35.5 exhaust, ported by myself i even ground off valve guides inside the ports.40mm dellscomp was 12.2:1and i was shifting at 7800rpm.this small engine was alot of fun and it never broke in the 3 years i drove it and raced it.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: chopper476 on March 23, 2013, 21:17:59 PM

try and get this thread up and running again as its one of the best and most interesting threads ever! ian clarks 52 suited the theme of this threadvery nicely and out of personal interest, does anyone have any specs of the later 1850cc motor it ran?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: andy198712 on April 06, 2013, 20:41:59 PM

i'm toying with building a 1200T after my navy training if that counts...?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: modnrod on April 07, 2013, 04:58:59 AM

1200T sounds good.

After 15 yrs the Navy doesn't.......


Quote from: modnrod on April 07, 2013, 04:58:59 AM

1200T sounds good.


Lol

I'll put some links up to a couple 1200t builds later.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mansell on April 10, 2013, 14:52:38 PM

Here's my "junkyard" 1776put together using second hand parts over 3 years ago and still running strong now ;)

No idea on HP or quarter mile times just good fun in my street bug ;D

(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/th_07042013041_zps0bcc1721.jpg)(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/07042013041_zps0bcc1721.mp4)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: chopper476 on April 10, 2013, 19:55:47 PM

Quote from: mansell on April 10, 2013, 14:52:38 PM

Here's my "junkyard" 1776put together using second hand parts over 3 years ago and still running strong now ;)

No idea on HP or quarter mile times just good fun in my street bug ;D

(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/th_07042013041_zps0bcc1721.jpg) (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/07042013041_zps0bcc1721.mp4)

thats sounds/looks awesome! whats the specs on it?


Quote from: andy198712 on April 09, 2013, 21:18:02 PM

Quote from: modnrod on April 07, 2013, 04:58:59 AM

1200T sounds good.


Lol

I'll put some links up to a couple 1200t builds later.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z2zISQYevjg

The boost pipe is the hot air feed pipe and uses the stock muffler.... super sleeper!

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138482

this one uses a small turbo and a large turbo.... Maaad!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on April 10, 2013, 23:36:06 PM

After a much longer delay than planned, the mouse is out of the house!

This year it has new double wishbone rear suspension and 6 speed sequential gearbox with the tried and tested little JPM screamer out back.

There is plenty to do to get everything working properly, and I need to learn how to drive the car again as you will see from the video below (if itworks).

ps hope you like Neil Diamond! If not go easy on the volume..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yona3vCyGQI&feature=youtu.be

Peter


WOW!That thing sounds crisper than some of the bikes I hear at the track. :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Jesus on April 11, 2013, 15:28:56 PM

Still giving me goosebumps, such a great sound!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: mymedusa on April 11, 2013, 16:01:42 PM

@peter: tell us more about the gearbox ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Zach Gomulka on April 11, 2013, 16:06:25 PM

Quote from: Jesus on April 11, 2013, 15:28:56 PM


Sweet Caroline?

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: monkiboy on April 11, 2013, 17:19:39 PM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on April 10, 2013, 23:36:06 PM

After a much longer delay than planned, the mouse is out of the house!

This year it has new double wishbone rear suspension and 6 speed sequential gearbox with the tried and tested little JPM screamer out back.

There is plenty to do to get everything working properly, and I need to learn how to drive the car again as you will see from the video below (if it works).

ps hope you like Neil Diamond! If not go easy on the volume..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yona3vCyGQI&feature=youtu.be

Peter

VERY COOL :)


Quote from: Zach Gomulka on April 11, 2013, 16:06:25 PM

Quote from: Jesus on April 11, 2013, 15:28:56 PM


Sweet Caroline?

Hehehehehee! :D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on April 12, 2013, 08:23:35 AM

Quote from: mymedusa on April 11, 2013, 16:01:42 PM

@peter: tell us more about the gearbox ;)

Hi Mymedusa,

Its a Hewland JFR 6 speed sequential shift gearbox with straight cut gears and dog engagement. Its a smaller and cheaper version of their well knownFTR box. They get used in formula 3 cars and some single make formula cars like Formula BMW, Chevron also use them in their new car single makeracing series.

Its a good fit in a beetle with little modification to the car required (just remake the front mount) and make a bellhousing (modify an existing one). Thedifficult bit is the clutch as the standard arm for the release bearing does not fit if you want to keep the motor in the standard location which is whatI've done. This means the gearbox sits slightly further forward and lower in the car than normal which helps improve the weight distribution a little. Mycar is 62% rear and 38% front currently but my ultimate aim it to get it to 60 / 40 if possible.








I have some pictures which I will try and post up.

Peter


very interesting and just 36kg like stock. nice. would like to see pics and how you managed it.very nice. thanks for the review.


Hopefully this will work if it does their should be a picture of the box below.[attachment=1]


Not a great picture but you can just about make out the nose cone mount on the torsion housing and there is a mid mount not shown much like theusual mid mount you see on a hypo type 1 box.

Peter [attachment=1]


seriously seriously COOL - Can we get a few more of the rearend set-up PLEASE ;) :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benssp on April 12, 2013, 18:40:35 PM

Very impressive Peter, you've really raised the bar this time!

Must way a bit! ;-)


Peter..... I think car needs it own thread on here!!!! :)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: WPS on April 12, 2013, 20:07:35 PM

Quote from: benssp on April 12, 2013, 18:40:35 PM

Very impressive Peter, you've really raised the bar this time!

Must way a bit! ;-)

Much to Pete's great joy when corner weighing the car whilst setting the geometry etc it is actually lighter than before.....imagine his little face!! ;DAnd there's some 'nasty steel bolts' in there that will definately get Ti'ed when the time allows....along with the rear springs when we're happy withthe poundage.....it seems to need less spring than a ladder bar car.....but it's early days yet.....lots more to learn....

Ian

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dannyboy on April 12, 2013, 23:16:14 PM

proper cool setup was great to see a different approach to the rear end and it looks like its going to work very well 8) 8) 8)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXRw5MPhPY8&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: leec on April 13, 2013, 20:45:40 PM

Great videos as always Alex

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Torben Alstrup on April 13, 2013, 22:09:24 PM

Hello. Last I looked, Hewland could´nt handle a powerfull drag engine/drag start. - That has obviusly changed. Very interesting.

T


from my limited understanding it cant take high torque so small cc engines work well. Pete is the man with the info though.


Quote from: Torben Alstrup on April 13, 2013, 22:09:24 PM

Hello. Last I looked, Hewland couldn't handle a powerfull drag engine/drag start. - That has obviously changed. Very interesting.

T





Hi Torben,

The Hewland boxes Mark 9 and earlier are only good for around 150ft lb torque, but this one is apparently good for around 240ft lb subject to R&P. AsAlex suggested it would not be much use for the big guns on here but for me I hope its going to be a good set up. The plan is that it would give me abit of performance advantage in terms of the shift time and having the motor operating in a better rev range (more area under the curve) for more ofthe run.

Time will literally tell if that proves to be the case or not.....

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: BUGULA on May 20, 2013, 19:09:36 PM

I built a 1641 with a VZ15 cam, 10:1 comp, home ported stock size valve heads, 40mm Dells and a c/w crank. It went 14.79 with 6" slicks and astock 3.88 trans in a '71 standard. Open stinger and fan belt on. The lite flywheel made it really hard to launch with the slicks.

My next small combo will be thick wall 88's (I have an old set from a gasser) with a 69 or 74 crank and a webcam 86A. Maybe, somekind of 40x35store bought heads.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Old Guy on June 12, 2013, 21:27:05 PM

Hi Peter,

It sounds great. I am assuming that with the dog-box you are not using the clutch to upshift. If that's the case what are you using to kill the enginetemporarily? The shifts sound too quick to just be "bliping" the throttle while you yank it into gear.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: whirligig on June 12, 2013, 21:46:38 PM

well our bits 1679(and I mean bitsa)whent 14.9 lifting off with the new gearbox ,lower 3rd and 4th,so looking forward to the gti meet at shakey ,dontknow if it will take warmed slicks though!!!!!!

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 67nos48ida on June 16, 2013, 07:54:04 AM

I was active in the Cal-Look seen in the mid to late 70ty's. At that time had a 1750 too. lots of head work, and with a FK89. Transmission somewhattotal different that is where most of my money went. Lets just say on the freeway, in the slow lane I would be doing 45 miles an hour. We wont talkabout RPM's either But also I ran a little additive to help me down the 1/4 and behind Nabisco's. My car was 19967 Black VW (old school) and hungout with DKK which I was a member of. But to this day I will still build another 1750.(almost the same thing I had as I had back in the day) Track timeat OCIR without help12.90, and with help12.10. The unit that I was using was installed my Miller Brother's.

****I am trying to get in touch with Bill S. from DKK, since I don't live in California any longer.***** Phone or cell? email address?

Thank you.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Neil Davies on June 16, 2013, 09:01:40 AM

Welcome to the Lounge! There are lots of Deeks on here, including Schwimmer, so if you post in the main Cal Look section you'll probably get aresponse pretty quickly - I don't know how often he checks the Pure Racing section!Neil


Quote from: Old Guy on June 12, 2013, 21:27:05 PM

Hi Peter,

It sounds great. I am assuming that with the dog-box you are not using the clutch to upshift. If that's the case what are you using to kill the engine temporarily? The shiftssound too quick to just be "bliping" the throttle while you yank it into gear.

As you suggest no clutch to shift up, or down actually just a blip on the way down to release the gear. I was lifting slightly originally on the way upthe box, but to be honest my brain did not cope particularly well with the coordination and I kept making a mess of it, so I ended up keeping my footin and just giving the lever a good tug. It shifted as you can hear on the clip from Alex. I spoke to Hewland about the possibility of this beforehandand have since and they suggested as long as the gear releases and you are quick then you will be OK. I got the impression this was particularly so inmy case as my car is not heavy and has relatively little torque or horsepower, relative to what many modern Hewland boxes are designed for.

I'll have the box apart at the end of the year assuming it stays in one bit till then and see how it looks, but as the upshifts sound crisp and the gearsrelease easily and there are no nasty engagement noises, fingers crossed it will be OK.

I'm going to MOT the car tomorrow and assuming it passes I can start getting some street miles on it, so hopefully I can get the hang of driving itbefore EBI in a couple of weeks.

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: benlawrence on June 16, 2013, 22:05:04 PM

Peter, thats such an incredible car, i remember years back when you bought the engine from ian how well it went, youve come a long way..differently, absolutely incredible. :)


Quote from: benlawrence on June 16, 2013, 22:05:04 PM

Peter, thats such an incredible car, i remember years back when you bought the engine from ian how well it went, youve come a long way.. differently, absolutely incredible. :)

Hi Ben,





Thanks to a lot of help from Ian (WPS) and Peter (Cogbox) for the best part of 10 years the car came a long way with us collectively making smallincremental improvements which eventually resulted an the car running regular high 11's street driven and reliable as you like. I can say there is a lotto be said for staying with a combination and developing it! I learnt a lot, and had a great fun along the way.

Things have moved on a bit with the car in general, but Peter and Ian have continued to help and be involved along with many other friends I've madealong the way.

The car passed its MOT today so had my first drive on the road since New Years Day 2011. I know I've said this before, but my good it feels fast onthe road when you have been used to a diesel polo for 2 and a bit years!

I'm slightly embarrassed to admit it, but I've been driving around this morning just trying to find an excuse to change gear! The acceleration and noiseand generally feeling is just fantastic! A hot VW on the street really is such great fun.......

The good news the back of the car feels really planted and a big improvement over the way it felt previously on the road. That said I've not beengoing too quickly as yet, so its still a bit early to tell but it certainly feels promising.

One other interesting thing. I'm currently running the car without an external oil cooler or the standard one on the block and it still took at least 20minutes of driving to get the oil temperature over 80 degrees which was a big surprise. I have the external cooler pre fitted in a new location due tothe suspension mods and just need to make up some new oil lines but I knew my initial journeys would be just a few short local runs I didn't botherthinking I could just keep an eye on the oil temp. As it turns out I could go far further than I thought, but to be fair it was a regular traffic low speedso that does go some way to explaining it. That and the fact even thought its nearly the longest day of the year here in the UK it was only about 15degrees!

I've a bunch of must do jobs before EBI, and a few which might have to wait as I'm leaving here a week this Thursday which means I only have twonights in the garage between now and then. I had hoped to drive the car there, but its looking less likely now, I'll see how I get on with the must dojobs.

Peter


I can't wait to check it out in more detail dude - That is one amazing car/engine/gearbox ;D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: richie on June 17, 2013, 19:52:34 PM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on June 17, 2013, 14:02:49 PM

I've a bunch of must do jobs before EBI, and a few which might have to wait as I'm leaving here a week this Thursday

Peter

You could build a complete car in that time ;D Now stop messing around on the internet and into the garage ;)

cheers Richie

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: spanners on June 29, 2013, 15:29:53 PM

Nice work Peter, very clever rear wishbone lay out adapted to the exsisting, that maywell be legal for circuit racing, ;) all it says in my regs is,, ' theoriginal pickup points must be retained', well mine are in the tool box, :D just in case i get pulled. Beetle drivers get an easy ride,,untill you start winning... ::) then the bichin starts..love the trans' choice as well, i could use a 6 speed, something like that alone would be worth 1/2a second a mile on the circuits. well done sir..

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: slowlearner on June 30, 2013, 05:32:31 AM

First time poster...

I remember coming across this thread and Johannes 1603 a few years back and being transfixed by the idea alone. Of course the engine itself is moreamazing. I've got some 'out of the box' plans for a mini-mouse motor of sorts. I swapped my subaru powered dunebuggy for this oval last year...

(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/stpeterscia/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/IMAG09791.jpg)(http://s279.photobucket.com/user/stpeterscia/media/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/IMAG09791.jpg.html)

Nice original paint (mostly) car. Came with a Judsoned 40hp. Cool setup except, it wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and I am really beginning tomiss autokhanas I used to do. I live in Australia. It is a great place to find rust free cars, but an awful place to get modified cars approved. I was upfor building a blown 1600 for the car when it was made clear to me that swapping to front discs would involve thousands of dollars of brake testingand certificates. Dumb, but they're the facts. We don't have the dollars or room for tow cars or trailers. So, I need to keep registration and staywithin capacity limits. Which means a supercharged 1300. Still figuring the details out, but I'll be taking plenty of cues from this thread. Low budget,thinking outside the box, etc. ;)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: modnrod on June 30, 2013, 09:34:39 AM

Morning Mr Slow! ;D

I too live in our great red land, in a state that also has a disease called "Tech Inspector Apoplexy". I have had a 1641 with Solex and modded stockexhaust running mid-15s, lots of others here have run mid-14s all day with a stock-looking centre carb set-up (hide them under a factory air cleanerassembly), and I have heard of a guy in the US, who is my undoubted hero even though I don't know his name, who has achieved low-13s out of a1584 with single Solex! :oNow even though that's 2 seconds slower than Johannes twin-IDA'd motorbike motor, it won't even cause a second glance at a roadside inspection byone of our red dust covered finest...........

Great ride by the way! Cool as.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: slowlearner on June 30, 2013, 11:04:23 AM




Hey modnrod, yeah I've heard about WA from guys building buggies. :(

This circled word on my tech inspection sheet opens up a few legal options others don't have...

(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/stpeterscia/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/techinspection_zpsfbb9ac45.jpg)(http://s279.photobucket.com/user/stpeterscia/media/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/techinspection_zpsfbb9ac45.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: modnrod on June 30, 2013, 11:07:47 AM

Hehehehe!It's all good man! ;D


Well after what seamed to be a long break in the calendar before Ebi, it came and went in a flash.I had a list of jobs to do after UKDD, which just about got done in time, but I only just got the car MOT'd before leaving for EBI. So with basically nostreet miles I decided not to drive the car to the track, which was a bit of a disappointment as I had hoped to drive.There was no running on Friday due to the track not being safe / dry following a lot of rain the day before but it was good to have a look round thepits and catch up with people. The track opened on Saturday and stayed that way for the rest of the weekend, but was single lane only and 1/8th mile initially on Sat again forsafety reasons. It was a shame there were no side by side passes, for the crowd, but I don't think they were too disappointed judging by the number of peoplewatching.I ran the first run with clutched gear changes just to get back into the swing of it and all felt good then shifted without the clutch for the rest of theweekend. I'm getting the hang of the shifting now and the good news is both the suspension and gearbox have been reliable to date.Unfortunately the oil leak issue I thought I had resolved was still a problem but the plan B parts I had with me fixed it. That said it turns out that infixing one issue I'd made another which resulted in a temporary fix at the track which needs a proper fix now the car is home again.Nothing spectacular to report in terms of the times but I was pleased to get into the 11's (11.89)on the street tires on a road based track.Hopefully I can now get some street miles on the car and get back to driving to the track. That said next race is Bugjam which is only in a few weeks,so I better pull my finger out!There are a couple of short film clips on the EBI video thread in happenings if you're interested, thanks to Jo, Ian / Mav. You can hear the ratios are allwrong but 1st to 4th should give you and idea of what 5th and 6th will sound like next year.

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Peter Shattock on July 15, 2013, 14:20:45 PM

Quote

One other interesting thing. I'm currently running the car without an external oil cooler or the standard one on the block and it still took at least 20minutes of driving to get the oil temperature over 80 degrees which was a big surprise. I have the external cooler pre fitted in a new location due tothe suspension mods and just need to make up some new oil lines but I knew my initial journeys would be just a few short local runs I didn't botherthinking I could just keep an eye on the oil temp. As it turns out I could go far further than I thought, but to be fair it was a regular traffic low speedso that does go some way to explaining it. That and the fact even thought its nearly the longest day of the year here in the UK it was only about 15degrees!

Well the car is back in one piece again after a few fixes and upgrades and took it for a drive on Sunday afternoon as is was about 30 degrees so Ithought it would be a good hot running test with the oil cooler in its new location and to see if I can leave the deck lid closed as I never really likedthe look of the standoffs.The oil cooler is now where the torsion housing used to be as I figured getting the weight further forward would be a good thing and if all we underand about air running of the back of the floor pans and into the area under the boot floor it should not be too bad. That said its closer than ideal tothe underside of the boot floor directly above where the torsion housing normally sits.The car got up to 90 degrees with about 10 minutes running in traffic and a couple of short runs at 60mph on some open roads. A short blast later andthe temp was just over 90 and it then stayed between 90 and 95 with similar traffic and open road driving. Oil pressure was still good at this pointaround 40psi at 4000rpm. I then switched the fans on at 95 which dropped the temp to 85 in about 1-2 mins. I left the fans on and the temp stuck at85 or there abouts for the rest of the journey.When I got home I left the car on tick over with the fans on and with the low rpm the oil temp dropped to 80 degrees.So it looks like I still have some good temp control for the longer journeys to the track as it’s unlikely to get significantly hotter over here.As before the oil pressure and oil temp were quite closely linked with a 10 degree increase in oil temp resulting in approximately a 10 psi drop in oilpressure, perhaps slightly less if anything.All this with the deck lid closed, but I might nick one of my son’s tennis balls to open the bottom of the lid just to give a bit more air to the engine andsee if it makes any significant difference to the temps for the drive to the track on Friday as it looks like it’s still going to be hot still.More street miles on Wednesday just because I can!Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Shane Noone on July 15, 2013, 15:05:01 PM

Hi Peter,

Very Interesting reading and real life tech feedback, as I also drive my racecar out and about and to the track and back. ( Just raced at Dragstalgiaafter driving there and back in those same 30 degree temps ). My 2332 Comp Eliminator motor was sat around 100 degrees C Oil Temps measured insump via VDO dipstick sender on the road jouney. My cooling is stock doghouse plus 19 row Mocal and Kenlowe fan. I had the fan on the wholejourney. When I got home with the motor idling on my driveway and the fan running it did pull down to 95 quite quickly and I expect would drop to 90if I waited. ( I have seen the fan drop the oil temp by up to 10 degrees C previously but on cooler days ).

Your setup is running nice cooler oil temps. I can't remember do you have the MS230 heads on your mouse ? What's you Compression Ratio set to ? (am assuming as road car your using some 99 RON pump fuel ).

Have you got any pics of your remote cooler location you can share on here ? I did have a quick look under your car at DD but can't remember.

Thanks,

Shane.


Hi Shane,



Good to hear you're another one who driving your car on the road and to the track, and with any luck home again!I run modified std heads so plenty of fin area to help with keeping the heads cool, a CSP non dog house fan shroud with a wide fan and a powerpulley. My oil temp sender is also in the sump. CR is 12.7:1 and it runs on Shell 99 pump gas.I'm sure I have a picture of the cooler some where but I'm hopeless at all the resizing and all that to post them. I'll have a go at some point, butbasically its in the std torsion housing location.

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Shane Noone on July 16, 2013, 11:33:35 AM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on July 16, 2013, 09:15:42 AM

Hi Shane, Good to hear you're another one who driving your car on the road and to the track, and with any luck home again!I run modified std heads so plenty of fin area to help with keeping the heads cool, a CSP non dog house fan shroud with a wide fan and a power pulley. My oil temp sender is alsoin the sump. CR is 12.7:1 and it runs on Shell 99 pump gas.I'm sure I have a picture of the cooler some where but I'm hopeless at all the resizing and all that to post them. I'll have a go at some point, but basically its in the std torsionhousing location.

Peter

Morning Peter,

Yep, there's not too many of us left that still do that ! ;)

Ah ok, yes the extra cooling ability of a stock style head on a street driven motor. Wise choice ! Are you running any additives like anti-det stuff whenracing on pump 99 with that kind of compression ratio ?? And you just cruise around the streets presumably at low speed RPM's where the effectiveCR is much lower due to cam bleed off on plain 99 without any signs of detonation.....?

Ok no worries about uploading pics etc - I'm pretty useless at that stuff myself :D Just wondered if your cooler was flat or upright in location andwhether you were forcing air through it with some sort of ducting or just relied on an electric fan to push / pull air through the cooler as and when youswitched it on etc......

Cheers Shane

Ps when / where are you next planning to race as if I can make it I'll come take a fresh look and say hello.


Hi Shane,

No det issues, but as you say the cam has big duration so at low rpm it makes very little dynamic CR so not much heat. Not had to use an octanebooster but I do have a bottle just in case....

Open road speed is slow though 4000rpm is about 60mph but temps are well under control then. I like to keep them as low as poss within reason (80-90 degrees), so engine expansion is kept in check so that the oil pressure stays good with nice tolerances for the bearings and lifter bores.

Next outing with the car is this weekend at Bugjam.

If you can face the mayhem that is Bugjam drop by.

Peter


Hmmmm interesting reading on the fuel/CR/det etc

I know there are ALOT of other factors to consider but I was worring about 11.8:1 :-\

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: 1946vw on July 17, 2013, 05:43:35 AM

9.04 143.10 with a 1668cc engine G/D

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Neil Davies on July 17, 2013, 12:48:21 PM

Quote from: 1946vw on July 17, 2013, 05:43:35 AM

9.04 143.10 with a 1668cc engine G/D

Amazing, well done! :o I'd love to see your engine matched up to Peter Shattock's gearbox - I'd imagine it would sound like a swarm of angry waspswith chainsaws!


Neil, I think you'll find Brian has a gearbox well suited to his dragster and engine to run that sort of number.

Very impressive Brian which motor was this?

A new PB I assume, did it get you a record back too?

Less is more!

Peter

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: speedwell on July 18, 2013, 17:19:47 PM

Quote from: Peter Shattock on July 18, 2013, 13:48:07 PM

Neil, I think you'll find Brian has a gearbox well suited to his dragster and engine to run that sort of number.






Very impressive Brian which motor was this?

A new PB I assume, did it get you a record back too?

Less is more!

Peter

peter there's a tread about brian's engine here (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,18903.0.html)


Well this is my last update again for a while following the race last weekend at Bugjam, as I’ve decided to make an early start to my planned winterupdates, in a hope I can avoid a last minute rush next yearI’m glad to say Bugjam was far better than I had expected as an event. It’s been a few years since I was there last and the way they have set up theracers pit meant there were only people interested that bothered to walk in which was good. I’m sure there were plenty of revellers there but theydidn’t make it to the racers pits. To the credit of the Santa Pod staff it was all very well organised and all in all an enjoyable weekend.I finally got to drive the car to the track again which was the first long drive I had time for with previous longest runs being only around 30-35minutes. I just bumbled along for the 2 ½ hours it took to get to the track from home. At about 55mph oil temps were just over 90 degrees with thefans off and the deck lid closed. Fans on they got down to below 75 degrees and as before the oil pressure increased over 10 psi in this temp range.The first long run with the gear box revealed it shifts quicker with warm oil (no great surprise) which is now on the list of jobs to contemplate for thefuture.Friday was a day of bracket racing for me with a string of 11.5* second runs, but the clutch was marginal on a good track after a couple of runs andthat familiar clutch aroma filled the garage after each run. On Saturday this resulted in me trying to get the car off the line without a burnout or evena tire scrub the latter was what I was doing on Friday. This worked remarkably well and I actually managed to run a couple of 11.4*’s just to breakthe monotony of the 5*’s. I went backwards on Sunday with 2 11.6*’s, but I managed to get back to the 4*’s for the first round of eliminations butgot beaten by JG (again). The highlight at the track was a 117mph run which is my best terminal speed, but I think this was mainly due to a healthytail wind rather than anything either the car or I did.Having packed everything back in the car again the drive home was great on a nice warm evening, I left the fans on and drove faster when therewasn’t traffic jams and could keep the oil temps at 80 degrees between 60-65mph and did this for about an hour on the last part of the journey, againwith the deck lid closed.Big thanks go to Ian, Alex and Mav for all their help and advice over the weekend.The cars not gone any quicker this year and has actually been at best 1.4 tenths of its best time from 2010. It would of course have been nice to goquicker, but this year was all about trying to prove the new setup works and is safe and reliable. The good news is that this has proved to be thecase in all respects having driven the car a fair bit on the road now and on 3 different tracks. Hopefully there are no horror stories when I get the carapart, but I’ll just have to wait and see on that front.I have to say a big thank you to Luke and Andy at Robinson Race Cars, as they mounted the gearbox, built the rear suspension and set the car up andprovided loads of advice and help along the way. Also Paul for the gearbox and the suspension design advice which in all has made the car very easyto drive and a lot of fun to change gear with!I have a busy winter ahead, but looking forward to 2014 already. Peter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs5dHwTLqmQ

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Boom Boom on August 15, 2013, 23:10:25 PM

If someone was to put together a 62.5X94 where would be the best place to get shorter than stock head studs as the rods are going to be 4.75..

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: dangerous on August 16, 2013, 02:45:25 AM

Short ;D of having some made,you can go for 10mm studs, from 36 and 40hp engines.They go in steps of about 1/2" from the 36hp upper and lower,right up to the last 1500 and 1600 dual and single port M10 studs.

Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old schoolPost by: Old Guy on August 16, 2013, 16:18:19 PM

6.28 @ 115MPH in the 1/8th with a 1641. Take a look at the "Hyper Bug" for sale.

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