Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 19 OCTOBER 1955

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Supply. [19 OcTOBER.] Questions. 797

WEDNESDAY, 19 OCTOBER, 1955.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. J. H. Mann, Brisbane) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

FIDELITY BONDS, AUCTIONEERS AND

COMMISSION AGENTS.

lUr. NICKLIN (Landsborough) asked the Treasurer-

'' 1. With reference to the issue or renewal of fidelity bonds to applicants for auctioneers' or commission agents' licenses or applicants for renewal of any such licenses, is it a fact that in future the Insurance Commissioner will require such applicants to each supply a counter­indemnity for the purpose of indemnifying the Insurance Commissioner against any claims which may be made under any such fidelity bond~

'' 2. If so, is it proposed to continue col­lection of a substantial premirrm in respect of each bond under which the effective liability of the Insurance Commissioner, being so indemnified, is completely cancelled out~

'' 3. What is the present annual premium payable for the issue of any such bond~''

Hon. E. J. W ALSH replied-

(Bundaberg)

"As the administration of the Auc­tioneers and Commission Agents Acts comes under the jurisdiction of the Hon. the Attorney-General and the .;onditions

798 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

applicable to the issue of licenses to auctioneers and commission agents are determined by the Justice Department, the question should be directed to my col­league, the Hon. the Attorney-General.''

PURCHASE OF '' BADDOW HOUSE,'' MARYBOROUGH.

liir. PIZZEY (Isis) asked the Secretary for Mines and Immigration-

'' 1. Did the State Government purchase a property at Maryborough known as '' Baddow House''~

'' 2. If so, what was the purchase price and when was the purchase made~

'' 3. Did the Commonwealth Government pay half the cost of the purchase price 1

'' 4. Did the State Government propose to set up this property under agreement with the Commonwealth Government for a migrant reception hostel for British migrants~

'' 5. Has the project been allowed to lapse? If so, why~

'' 6. Is he aware that vandals have destroyed many of the fittings of the build­ing and the property allowed to go into disrepair?

'' 7. In such circumstances would he, by permit, allow the New Settlers' League in Maryborough to have the use of the property until required by the State for the pm pose for which it was acquired~''

Hon. C. G. McCATHIE (Haughton) replied-

" 1. Yes. '' 2. £5,500. Purchase was made at the

end of 1949. "3. Yes. '' 4. Yes, the Commonwealth Department

of Immigration having agreed to con­tribute half the capital ancl establishment costs, subject to submission of full esti­mates, inelucling costs of necessary altera­tions ancl conversion.

"5. Yes. At the time of the purchase there was ample employment offering, par­ticularly for tradesmen, and it was intended to establish migrant hostels at Townsville, Rockhampton and Maryborough to provide temporary housing accommo­dation for migrant tradesmen and their families, but by the time the necessary alterations, etc., to buildings purchased in Townsvi!le and Rockhampton were ca.r­ricd out, the position had changed in that the Commonwealth Government tapered off the intake of British migrants, and in addition, the employment aspect had deteriorated.

'' 6. Yes, despite vigilance by the police and local officers of the Department of Public Works. The hon. member for Maryborough has been in communication with me on various occasions and, during my last visit to the Maryborough district, an inspection of these premises was arranged.

'' 7. The desire of the New Settlers League at Maryborough to have the use of these premises was mentioned to me by the hon. member for Maryborough on my visit to that district in September, but as, with the agreement of the Common­wealth Department, all Government depart­ments have been offered the building at cost price, until all departments have indi­cated whether the building is required, it is not possible to permit the New Settlers League in Maryborough to use the property.''

SEPTIC SYSTEMS, STATE SCHOOLS,

BURDEKIN ELECTORATE.

}Ir. COBURN (Burdekin) asked the Secretary for Public Instruction-

'' 1. Will he kindly inform the House if an investigation has been carried out throughout the State to ascertain where the water supply is adequate and the soil suitable for the installation of septic systems at State Schools~

'' 2. If so, will he please advise at which schools within the Electoral District of Burdekin conditions were found to be suit­able for installation of septic systems~"

Hon. W. POWER (Baroona-Attorney-General), for Hon. G. H. DEVRIES ( Gregory), replied-

'' No general survey of the State to ascer­tain where the water supply is adequate ancl the soil suitable for the installation of septic systems at State schools has been made. Each place is investigated as the scheme progressively develops.''

SEPTIC SYSTEMS IN STATE SCHOOLS.

3Ir. COBURN (Burdekin) asked the Secretary for Public Instruction-

'' \V ill he kindly inform the House for which schools approval for the installation of septic systems has been given since he publicly announced on 5 August, 1955, that it is the policy of the Government to install septic systems at all schools where the water supply is adequate and the soil suit­able for the purpose~"

Hon. w. POWER (Baroona-Attorney­General), for Hon. G. H. IlEVRIES ( Gregory), replied-

'' The hon. member is refened to answers given by me on 7 and 13 September to identical questions asked by the member for Mt. Coat-tha.' '

RAIL FREIGHT ON SKIFFS FOR REGATTAS AND

SAILING CARNIVALS.

Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) asked the Minister for Transport-

'' In view of the fact that until recently skiffs railed to regattas and sailing car­nivals were charged full freight on the forward journey and half freight on the

Medical Acts [19 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 799

l'eturn, whereas now they pay full freight both ways, will he give consideration to the re-introtluction cf the original con­·ccssion which played a large part in making these carnivals a success 9''

Jiou. J .. E. TCplied~

DUGGAN (TOO>V'OOmba)

''Prior to April, 1954, it was the prac­tice to allow half-freight rates on sailing skiffs on the return journey by rail after having compete!l at regattas and sailing earnivals, but this concession was with­rlrawn for the reason that the skiffs occupy a large space in comparison with their weight and the freight received was quite inadequate for the service rendered. That the freight charged is not excessive is demonstrated by the fact that the use of an eight-wheeled wagon to carry two skiffs from Bowcn to Townsville jetty and return yielded a revenue of onlc· £13 Ss. 6d. for a haul of 246 miles. To illustrate further that the freight on sailing boats is not unreasonable the revenue received from the use of an eight-wheeled wagon carrying five sabots from Bo>ven to Townsville jetty and return >vas only £9 9s. Gd.''

PAPERS.

The following paper was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed~

Report of the Agricultural Bank for the year 1954-1955.

The following papers were laid on the table~

Order in Council under the Abattoirs Acts, 1930 to 1949.

Regulation under the Stock Acts, 1915 to 1954.

Rules under the Mines Regulation Acts, 1910 to 1945.

Rules under the Coal :Mining Acts, 1925 to 1952.

:MEDICAL ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE.

(The Chairman of Committees, :Mr. Clark, Fitzroy, in the chair:)

Debate resumed from 18 October (see p. 749) on Clause ll~Amendments of s. 47; Prohibited practices, on which Mr. Nicklin had moved the following amendment~

''On page 8, lines 3 and 4, omit the words~

'a sphygmomanometer or a stethoscope or'."

lUr. AIKENS n\1undingburra) (11.10 a.m.) : When the debate was adj,ourned yes­terday I was telling of my own personal experience in respect of statements made by the hon, member for :Mt. Gravatt. When those two eminent doctors, Dr. Huxtable and Dr. Streeter, turned me out of my job in the post office on the grounds that I was physically unfit because of a heart condition which

would cause my death before I was 20, I was then a sergeant in the senior cadets, and very interested in the cadets. When the military officer hoard of my being turned out of the post office he sent me to the military medical officer, Dr. W. R. Kelly, who was also the superintendent of the Charters Towers General Hospital. When I told him that I had been turned down hy Drs. Huxtahle and Streeter on account of a serious heart condition he gave me a thorou12h examination and he got on the telephone to Drs, Huxtable and Streeter and indulged in the conversation we might expect to hear from the Attorney-General. He said that there "·as absolutely nothing wrong with my heart, that they vvere actuated by some motive or other, that I "IYUS perfectly fit for military sen-ice ancl that my heart "·as in excellent condition. Nevertheless, I lost my good job in the post office, Not long afterwards I >Yent to Cloncurry and after I was there for a short while I >vent before the local railwav doctor who gave me a perfectly clean hill o.f health and I entered the Railway Department. There was an aftermath to this particular incident because in 1919 I came do>Yn to Charters 'l'owers and Townsville with the western football team. At Charters Towers we played on a Sunday afternoon and on the Monday, Dr. Streeter who was a sportsman of a type, came to me where I wa.s with mem­bers of the tc•am at the Occidental Hotel and said, "You played a good game yesterday, lad.'' I turned to him, but I will not tell the Committee what I said to him because there are children in the gallery. Hon. members can guess what I said. After I had been at him for about two minutes he ran away and tried to get the police to arrest me for o bsccne and abusive language. Those are the facts. He was the man who said when I was 13 that I was not fit to work in the post office because I had a serious heart condition which would cause my death before I was 20. "When I was 19 that same doctor had the colossal hide to congratulate me on the game of repre­sentative football I played against Charters Towers the dav before. I did not hesitate to remind hiro · that I was the man he said would be dead before he was 20.

When the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt who is a doctor and I understand a bachelor of. surgery says that qualified doctors make mistakes as the result of stethoscopic exam­ination, I am prepared to believe him on the basis of my own case. I am certain there are many members in this Chamber who could quote other cases of doctors erring in the use of the stethoscope. The particular amend­ment seeks to give chiropractors and unregis­tered doctors the right to use the stethoscope and the blood-pressure gadget. When talking of unqualified people using the blood-pressure gadget, I remind hon. members that they can go to any hospital in Queensland and they will see trainee nurses using this blood­pressure gadget~not qualified sisters but trahee nurses who go along and take the blood-pressnre of uatients. Anybody who

800 Medical Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

knows about it knows that blood pressure can go up and down and vary as much as the political opinions of the Opposition or the Labour Party on any particular question. Go a1ong to a doctor on a hot day, hurry to see him when you are excited about something and let him put the old machine before you, wrap a black velvet band round your arm and use all this mumbo-jumbo and take your pressure, and you will find that it is particu­larly high. If you sit down quietly on a cool clay and let the doctor come to you, going through all the same mumbo-jumbo and hocus­pocus you will find that your blood pressure is perfectly normal. ·we had the case of men in the Railway Department at Towns­ville who were sent along to Dr. Halberstater, and other Government medical officers in Townsville when the department could not find any loophole by which it conld dismiss the men. It was the common practice until I exploded it in this Chamber for the depart­ment to send along the man's railway dossier for the G.M.O. to read in private and secrecy. Then Dr. Halberstater or his predecessors would call the unfortunate railwayman into his surgery, put the blood-pressure gadget round his arm, pump it up, and then certify him as being unfit for further senice in the Railway Department because of hypertension, which is the term used to indicate that a patient's blood pressure is dangerously high. On occasions we have immediately taken men to other doctors rejected by the Government medical officers, and we have got certificates from them that there was nothing at all wrong with the men's blood pressures.

An Opposition }!ember: They were taken for a ride~

:Jir. AIKENS: That is so.

That practice 1.-as obviated as the result of a case that I put up in this Chamber some years ago.

?!Ir. Chalk interjected.

I\Ir. AIKl~~S: If the hon. member for Lockyer looks up '' Hansard'' he will read of the fight that I put up in this Chamber on behalf of my union, the Australian Rail­ways Union, and the other railway unions, for the establishment of a medical board of review to which railwaymen who were diR­missed under the circumstances I have out­lined could appeal. The Leader of the Opposition will remember well the case that I presented on this hypertension racket. So strong was it that the present Treasurer, no friend of mine, who was then Minister for Transport, gave the railwaymen a medical board of review. As a matter of fact, one of my most cherished possessions is a letter of thanks and congratulations that I received from my union and other railway unions on the case that I put up for the establishment of a medical board of review. Nowadays, if a railwayman goes to a Government medical officer, the stunt to which I have Teferred cannot be practised on him. If the Govern­ment medical officer certifies him as unfit

for further service in the Railway Depart­ment, he has the right of appeal to the tribunal in Brisbane. ·

The Leader of the Opposition must remem­ber the fight that I put up on the occasion to which I am referring. The then hon. mem­bers for Bowen and Bulimba, and the Leader of the Opposition, joined in the fight because of the case that I was able to present against Government medical offi·cers in Townsville.

I should rather trust any man with a stethoscope and a blood-pressure gadget than with an ultra-violet ray lamp or an X-ray machine, or some other equipment with which he might possibly do serious harm to his patient if he is unqualified and inefficient in its use. What can he do with a stetho-8Cope ~ All he does is put it on the patient's chest, put the earphones in his ears, and go through the old, shall we say, prestidigi­tation of listening to the heartbeats or trying to ascertain something about the decomposi­tion of the tissues. I have seen doctors put a stethoscope on the patient's chest and leave the earphones round the back of their necks. It has been onlv when the examina­tion was half over that thev have remembered to put the earpieces in their ears. I have no doubt that through sheer force of habit the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt has done that more than once.

Hr. IHTTlUER: I rise to a point of order. I think all hon. members must realise that the hon. member for Mundingburra is distorting the truth. What he says is com­pletely untrue, and I ask for its withdrawaL

JUr. AHfKNS: I said, "I have no doubt.'' I did not make the definite state­ment that the hon. membeT for Mt. Gravatt had done it. I suggest that he cultivate a sense of humour. He has nothing else, so let him cultivate the saving grace of a sense of humour.

The instrument that ]eel to the invention of the stethoscope was used first by a French doctor, who wanted to get some idea of the heartbeats of his patients. He conceived th~ idea of fimply rolling up some stiff paper in the form of a tube and he used to put one end of the roll to his ear and the other enil on the patient's chest. I do not know whether the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt is old enough to remember it, but I can remember when many doctors regan1ed the present type of stethoscope as so much modern hocus-pocus, hooey and mumbo jumbo. Doctors used to have a long, slender instrument resembling an ear trumpet with rr little piece for the ear on one end and the exp:mded or dilated trumpet end on the other, and they would put it against the patient's chest. The hon. member for Southport remembers it well. Even if unregistered practitioners are for­bidden by law to nse the stethoscope, what is to stop them from going back to the old gadget, which many old doctors consider more efficient than the modern rubber-tube type stethoscope~

Medical Acts [19 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. SOl

As for the blood-pressure machine, I for vne completely disregard it. I know what can be done with a blood-pressure machine. I once gave my opinion by way of interjection and it was not recorded in '' Hansanl'' so I shall give it now so that it can be. From my own personal observation of the operation of blood-pressure machines, I think they are like taxi meters. They can be macle to register anything that the operator wants them to register. If any doctor put the blood­pressure gadget on my arm, pumped it up and told me I had a blood pressure of 460, -or 22, or any other number that took his fancy, I should disregard it, as I disregard many of the arguments advanced in this Chamber from time to time.

I want to take this opportunity of making what I think to be a forthright statement about one man ;;-hose cause has been peddlerl and whose barrow has been pushed in this Chamber by members of the Opposition. Wheu the Bill was introduced hon. members received letters from chiropractors, neuro­paths, naturopaths and other people who wen• not medical practitioners hut who claimed ecrtain skills.

JUr. :'!loo re: Concrete paths, too.

~Ir. AIKE~S: Yes, even concrete paths. Those men claimed that although they >Ye re not qunlifiecl medical practitioners they were eompetent to diagnose and cure the ills of the human body. I adhere to my original contention that if people wish to consult neuropa ths, ehiropractors and the like they should have the unrestricted Tight to do so. No vote of mine will ever deny a person thP right to consult the healer of his choice whether he is a member of the B.M.A., a naturopath, a chiropractor, a '' natureopath,'' or, as the hon. gentleman interjected, a concrete path.

I received a letter from Mr. Blackmorc that absolutely disgusted me. The other clay I received a personal and confidential letter so I shall not breach his confidence by quoting from it any more than I would bl'each the confidence of anyone else. However, the first letter I receiv·ecl from Mr. Blackmore said that he was divinely inspired; in other words, he had his message from God to take His healing into his practice, and he went vn blah-blah-blahing about divine inspiration. I have lived a long whiie in a lot of strange places and I have lived for many years in the great outback where men are men and have no time for hypocrisy, cant or humbug. I have lived in the same type of ·country as the hon. member for Aubigny, the hon. member fOl' Condamine and the hon. member for Barcoo and other hon. mem­bers who live where men are men and women are proud of it and glad of it. ~W·e hail a saying there, that has stood the test of time,­<' If your neighbour talks religion, brand your calves young.' ' Like the old saying that patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels, I firmly believe that the spurious profession of religion is the last resort of quacks

and cl'Ooks. When I read what Black­more said about divine inspiration I snirl to myself-and I stand on my opinion-­'' This man is a charlatan, a quack and a crook.''

Once a man tells me that he has been appointed by God, or anointed by God, or celestially begotten, or divinely inspired, once he starts to tell me that has had some ghostly visitation in the night or has heard the voices from up above and that those voices told him that it was his bounclen duty to go forth and lay his hands upon the bodies and cure the multitude, I say that that man is a crook, in my opinion, and, as the hon. member for Hinchinbrook once said, ''Like the conscious pirate, I wash my hands of him."

T know, too, that quite a number of un­qualified men have made cures in the past. I clearly remember a man named Hickson who eamc ·aut and travelled throughout Australin, sponsored, if I remember rightly, by the Church of England. Hickson was a faith healer. He cnred his pntients by the laying ou of hanfls. I suppose that >voul(l be a mo<leru <lllfl personal adaptation of what the wags call the Braille system. I know that he effected some remarkable cures. Incidentally, Hickson clied a very vYealthy man, and I was very surprised, perhaps wrongly, to read of the nmount at which his ;;·ill \\'as declared for probntc.

I remember the case of an old railway examiner at Cloncurry who was absolutely crippled and bed-ridden. He said he would like to go to Townsville to see Hickson and have the hand laid upon him. We carried poor old Joe-I will not tell you his sur­name-over to the mail train and put him aboard, and sent him down to Townsville firmly believing that that was the last we should see of poor old J oe. As the song says, we thought poor old Joe would go to rest. But in a fortnight's time we were on the platform of the Cloncurry railway station when, to our amazement and astonishment, olcl ,J oe hopped off the train, as lively as a cricket, with a great big bag of mangoes on his shoulder. That is as true a statement as has been made by anybody, and all the old Cloneurryites know it well. We said, "What the heck happened~" He said, ''They carried me in and put me clown, and Mr. Hickson eame up and stroked me across the forehead a couple of times and said, 'Son, get up and walk,' and I got up and walked.'' He did. He came back with a big bag of mangoes on his shoulder, and he gave each of us some mangoes in some small recognition of our part in carrying him to the train. He got married for the second time not long afterwards. I was down in Townsville on a holiday, and I met him walk· ing along Flinclers Street with his second wife. She had both her arms extended at fnll length holding with clasped hands, a big brownpaper bag, and het· chin was just resting on the top of it. He h~d a small bunch of withered plant slips in his hancl. He was very pleased to

802 Medical Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bid.

meet me, and he shook hands with me. He introduced his second wife. She could not shake hands with me because, if she had, she would have dropped the big brownpaper bng. He said, "We are going out to plant ~·ome shrubs on my first wife's grave. I have the clippings here, and my wife is carry­ing the sheep manure that I got from the sheep wagons.'' That is absolutely true.

\Ve all know the tremenc1ons effect that a man's mental outlook has upon his physical condition. You know of your own know­ledge, Mr. Olark, and we all know of our own knowledge, quite a number of people who would have good health if we could con­vince them that they were in good health. I spoke previously of the hypochondriac, and the hypochondriac is the bane of the decent medical practitioner, just as he is a pest to everyone who knows him.

Every time you meet him he has a fresh complaint. He has a bottle of pills in his pocket today and a bottle of medicine tomorrow. If he comes along some morning and looks a bit jubilant and happy all you have to do, if you are in the mood, is to say, "You are not looking too good today Jim. 'rhere are a few patches under your eyes. When~ did you get that unhealthy pallor from?'', and he will immediately collapse and the11 go out to huy another bottle of pills or wallnp from the chemist. If we get that type of people to these people 1vho can inspire tl:em with faith in themselves, the battle is half won.

The CHAIRJUAN: Order! I ask the hon. member to get back to the amendment.

:Jir. A IKE~S: I did kno1v that I was off the beam. (Laughter). It was such an interesting speech anu the Committee seemed to enjoy it and I am sme my little mates in the gallery enjoyed it to the full. The hon. member for Aubigny has whispered to me that I inferred that anyone who believes in God is wrong. I did not say that at all. I did not mean it to apply in that way. When I said that when your neighbour talks religion you brand your calYes young I IYas referring to the fellow IYho is al1Yays boast­ing about his religion.

~[!'. HUe:v: You are condemning the Pharisee, not religion.

}h·. AIKE~S: That is so. He is always t oming along and telling you what a good Christian he is and how often he goes to church and how he likes his chnreh and donates to his church and he has got that pious, holy, slimy look on his face-

The CHAIRiliAN: Order! If the hon. member does not keep to the amendment I shall ask him to resume his seat.

l'!Ir. AIKEN§: Th c amendment simply says that these people who are not anthorisec1 medical practitioners shall be allowed to use a stethoscope and a blood pressure gadget. Is not that the genesis of the amenclmenH Frankly I am verv sorry if you think I took

so long to get round to it. I can assure you, Mr. Clark, now to put your mind at rest that I am in favour of the amendment.

lUr. l''LETCHER (Cunningham) (11.33 a.m.): I support the amendment that was so a.bly supported by the previous speaker. In the first place the Minister almost exultingly says that he is going to hamstring unregistered men.

:"!h. }!OORE: I rise to a point of order. I repeat what I said the other clay. Hon. members opposite must be asleep. It was a member of the Opposition who used the word ''hamstring''.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! member for Cunningham!

The hon.

:ur. FLEl'rHER: If those are not the exact words that is what the Minister meant.

)Ir. :Jioore: You stick to the words.

:\Ir. FI~E1'CHER: If the Minister did not use that IYOrd that is the sense of it. I think the words the Minister used meant that th~y wel'e honomablc people doing a job in the ranks of the men we were discussing.

:i[r. )[oore: 'I' hat was in my opening remarks. That is further evidence that the hon. member was either not listening or was :ncapablo of understanding.

J\[r. :FLE'L'CHEn: I give the ::vl:inister cTedit for the statement that there are honourable men who are doing a good job, but, having said that, he penalises them along with the bad. The Minister has said that there must be no display of certificates or diplomas. That seems to imply that all certificates and diplomas are bad. The Minis­ter should depute some person or authority to find out which certificates and diplomas are good and valid and which are bad and fraudulent. Any person visiting a chiroprac­tor would then know the position very defi­nitely, by the outward and visible display of an approved diploma or certificate. Surely that would be a more commen-sense approach. 'rhe use of bad certificates could be for­bidden.

For the information of the Minister this is his statement as reported in '' Hansard' ', ''We are going to hamstring a few and hobble them, too.''

1Ur. :I\Ioore: I know what was said. The word ' 'hamstring'' was used b;r an Opposition member, and I added the word "hobble". I have never denied that.

3Ir. l<'LETCHER: I should like the Minister to explain his attitude. On the one hand he says that there are good men, and on the other hand he states that '10

certificates or diplomas will be allowed. For the purpose of giving a lead to the public, the good ones, if any, shoulrl Le identified.

lUr. Itioore: We are giving the public protretion of the lnw, Y>'l1ich the hun. memhPl' is opposing.

Medical Acts [19 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 803

Itir. FLETCHER: It is a pity the Minister cannot dispassionately consider both sides of an argument. The use of the stetho­scope and sphygmomanometer is denied to these people. It seems that there is no attempt to separate the unskilled goats from the skilled sheep, of whom the Minister admits there are a few. By doing this the Minister is classing the honest practitioner with the dishonest practitioner; he is being given the same treatment. There are some doctors who abuse their position or are unskilled. It would be just as reasonable to say to all doctors, "We are going to take from you all diagnostic instruments". It is destructive stupidity, and that is how it will appear to all reasonable men. Govern­ment members who have been helped by chiro­practors will regard it as shameful injustice. It seems to me that the Government have dogmatically asserted that all chiropractors are fools and rogues.

Thir. Moo re: Never suggested it.

Thir. FLETCHER: It is consistent with the Minister's saying that the Government are going to deny the whole lot of them the use of these instruments because of a few. 'rhere is no discrimination between the good and the bad, and there is no attempt to find out who arc the good and who arc the bad. In his own words the .Minister says that there are goorl and honourable men doing a good job, but by his deeds he is tren ting them as he "·ould treat the 1rorst in their ranks.

Itir. Foley: There is no such thing as an cxan1ination.

Itir. FLE'!'CHER: That is what it is hoped the Minister would initiate. It is hopcrl that ltc wouhl initiate some way of giving them registration, that the reputable members should be allowed to register under some facility orclered by the Minister. If there is no such registration the good ones arc not going to be able to help the Minister in weeding out the frauds :mcl the quacks. 'rhe Minister has said that they can apply for registration and their case will be con­sidered, but I think registration facilities should be made available so that the honour­able people can have a chance of helping him. They arc very interested in weeding out the frauds and quacks from amongst their ranks. That goes without saying if you concede there are any good ones and the Minister has already conceded that. It is of no use debating the matter becrruse the Minister has made up his mind that he will not listen to our representations. I suppose, when I have concluded, he will get up and brand me as being in favour of quacks. I have no brief for them and I do not consult them. There is room for some sort of a reasonable approach to the idea that some are good and not all are bad. If the Minister pursues his usual hostile attitude towanls what he considers hostile critics he will probably do as he did tlw other clay and say, ''The hon. member for

Cnnningham says this and that,'' and he will proceed t) rHisquotc J~~:-, in a 1nanner com­pletely changing tiw ,. cllGc~ of \I· hat I havc' said. To deny these people tile use oi these harmless instruments for Jiagnostic pur­poses cannot do anything but harm. It will merelv constiute an unwanantecl interference with ~the business of the chiropractor. I cannot believe that the sphygmomanometer and the stethoscope are dangerous. As a matter of fact, I believe it less than I dicl the other day after listening to the speech by the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt. He made the best contribution possible to our f>ide of the debate. What he said was a contradiction of the :Minister's statement about good and honomable people doing an important job. He said that there was no substantial evidence produced to justify the registration of one of these people in Queensland.

Dr. Dittmer: \¥hat evidence have you produced? Your party lws not produced any subst,lntial evidence.

:\Ir • .!<'I,E'l'fUER: It is not our job to produce evidence, but the ::\finister 's job.

3Ir. l'nwer: He does not want them registered.

:ur, "FJ,ETCHElt: It is the Minister's job. The hon. member for Mt. Gravatt tried to substantiate his statement that there was possible danger in the use by unregistered practitioners of blood-pressure machines and stdhoscopes.

nr. Dlttmer: You are not holding me responsible for your cleficiences in investiga­tion, are you~

}fr. J<'LI~TCHER: Ko, but does the hon. member mean to imply that member, of the British Medical Association have never made mistakes in diagnosis~

Dr. Dlttmer: I have already conceded that they have.

:\Ir. :F:LETCHER: 'i\'hy not concede the use of these instruments to other sections of the community? According to the Minister they have among their number many honour­able men who are doing a good job. After all it would be just as consistent to prevent m:mbers of the B.M.A. from using the instru­ments refened to in the Bill. Surely the Minister is being inconsistent~ As I say, he has conceded that some of these unregis­tered practitioners are doing good work.

Dr. Dittmer: The lVIi.nister has said repeatedly that if they produce evidence, he will give them every consideration.

)fr. I"J:,ETCHER: Tl1is is discriminatory action that will be regarded by people out­side who have no a.xe to grind as something that will protect nobody. In fact, it will make matters worse than they are now. The unskilled man will be all the more unskilled if he is denied the use of harmless methods of diagnosis.

'304 JYledical ActB [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Mr. JESSON (Hinchinbrook) (11.47 a.m.) : Irrespective of what party is in power, no-one can stop the march of science in chiropractic and homeopathy. The hon. member for Ounningham used the term ''chiropractic'' throughout his speech. That is very misleading, because all these sciences of healing are not embraced in the term ·''chiropractic''. There are also naturopathy and osteopathy.

Many unregistered practitioners use instru­ments sueh as the stethoscope and display omate certificates to create a good impres­sion among their patients. Chiropractors do not use stethoscopes. I have been going to a chiropractor for many years, and I know he does not use a stethoscope. Consequently, chiropractors are not worried about that part "Of the Bill.

Hon. rr,embers opposite are trying to score ·off the Government in presenting a case for people who are trying to build themselves up in the public eye. I am as concerned as a_ny other hon. member in seeing that the nght people are registered. The Bill has done much good in clearin<Y the air· it has br~ught the decent man o~t into the open, 1vhrle the others are using pressure politics. As a. matter of f.act, they held a meeting last mght to orgamse a campaign against the Government in an effort to get what they \Yant. The recognised chiropractors how­e,·er, have nothing to do with that. ' As I say, they do not use the instruments referred to in the Bill, they do not advertise, and they observe the same strict code of ethics as registered practitioners. The X-ray ma~hines they .use. would not hurt a fly; therr sole use 1s m the taking of shadow photographs. They are not as strong as a cam~ra that is used in a photographer's ·st~d10. Doctors in some country areas are usmg powerful X-ray machines, and all they knovr about them is what they have read on the directions that go with them.

The v~ry small X-ray plants are not capable ·of harnung anybody. I am sure the Govern­ment will use common sense and will not condemn the use of the shadow X-ray by men who have used it for years. I know one chiropractor who has used it for the last 10 years. It would be hard to convince me that he has not had experience with it. A start must be made somewhere and the Bill how­ever drastic, is at least a start. If it must be amended later, let it be amended. A pupil of O"le man told me that he was paying £60 for a course and receiving two lectures a week. That is rather a strong business. If that is the sort of thing members of the Opposi~ion foster, it is time they put their house m order and reconsidered their views. A clear line of demarcation must be drawn between the qualified man and the man seek­ing to profit from the gullibility of people. The hon. member for Ounningham knows nothing about the subject except what he has been told. He has never consulted one of

these men and knows nothing about them, so what can be contribute to the debate~ Yet he used the word '' chiropractor'' to cover all the practitioners, which is quite wrong. Chiropractors do not use stetho­scopes. They use small X-my machines that would not harm a fly, and have used them for years without complaint or trouble. I think the Government will look after such people if they put their cards on the table.

The hon. member for Isis asked the Mini­ster to investigate. He spoke of the facili­ties, of the Agent-General in London, and so on. ~When the Government did investigate the case he cited they found that the whole story was a pack of lies, yet the members of the Opposition have the audacity to say that this man should be allowed to walk round Y>ith a stethoscope hanging around his neck and the other gadget, with the long name that I cannot remember, resting on the sideboard, and on the wall a glorious array of diplomas _,-orth two bob a dozen. He is making a lucrative business out of his school and organising fellmvs, whether good, bad, or indifferent. I think hon. members opposite should be wary of what they say about it.

i\Ir. 3Ioore: They seek political advan­tage.

i\Ir. ,lESSON: 'l'hat is all it is. I have repeatedly warned one or two members of the Opposition. Reputable practitioners do not use the machines sought to be prohibited. They merely use the mild shadowgraph X-ray machine with its 9 milliamps.

;)Ir. Nicklin: Even a 9 milliamp machine i,; prohibited by the Bill.

Jir. JESSON: It could be brought in by regulation.

Jir. Nicklin: No. The X-ray plant is out.

Jir. JESSON: It might be called a chip­frying machine or something else. However, the matter can easily be adjusted. The important thing is to make a start. Anyone \Yho charges £60 for a course of two lectures a week and then lets his pupils loose on the community should be subjected to the strictest scrutiny and not allowed to opCTate. I have every confidence that the Government, through the Minister, will administer the measure sensibly for the protection of the public.

Hon. W. M. JUOORE (Merthyr-Secretary for Hc>alth and Home Affairs) (11.55 a.m.): I oppose the amendment for a number of reasons, the main one being the general tenor of the speeches on this Bill by hon. members of the Opposition. I llo not think they have studied the Bill. During thP time I have been a member of this House I have never heard such a difference of opinion among m.embers of the Opposition. I arlmire the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition for attempting, evrn at this late hour, to whittle down some

JJ! cc?ical Acts [19 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 80fi

of the dangerous and foolish statements of their colleagues, who have a misconcept1ou of the purpose of the Bill.

As I said when I introduced the Bill, this is an important Bill. I said that it could be tegarded as a contentious Bill, and I explained at length why the Government had brought it down. I explained certain very impor­tant principles, one of which was that the Government were not going to prevent, by law, sick people from getting attention wherever they wished. There was no doubt about that. I then stated that certain unqualified people were practising and doing good to patients. Hon. members of the Opposition are talking about hamstringing and hobbling these people. They seem to have missed the important point that we are taking action against the people who, by phoney advertising, diplomas, lectures, and so on, set out to gull sick people into believing that they are qualified medical practitioners.

There is the simple purpose of the Bill, and the Opposition have gone all round it. As I say, they do not seem to have anv conception of the real purpose of the Bill.

The hon. member for Yeronga a doctor, referring to other clauses, said th~t he would not obey the law. He suggested that the Government should condone crime.

The Leader of the Opposition said that some of these unqualified people would be dealt with at the whim of the Minister. That i~ not so. They will be dealt with by a police magistrate.

~Ir. Nicklin: Who brings the case before the police magistrate~

~Ir. 3IOO.RE: The Registrar of the Board.

JUr. Nicklin: And you will approve of the prosecution, won't you~

lUr. :uoon.E: Absolutely.

Jir. Nicklin: Well, you come into it.

;l[r. ~WORE: The Leader of the Oppo­sition is not serious on this point. A person i8 charged, probably with the approval of the Minister. What happens~ In the case of an ordinary crime, he is charged before a magis­trate and prosecuted. In the ordinary case, who decides it~ The magistrate. He is the person who will decide in these cases whether a person has implied that he is entitled to carry on as a qualified medical practitioner. So it is not at the whim of the Minister. All hon. members know that in these days you do not simply pick up people and put them in gaol for an offence.

They get a fair trial; they get every oppor­tunity to defend themselves. The hon. mem­ber for Cunningham was a good example of what I might term confusion worse confounded. He said that the Bill would be construed as an attempt by orthodox medi­cine to protect itself from the encroachment of what is generally considered to be very modern treatment for certain types of disease.

The bo'l. member cannot hlame me if he uses language that eau Le r:Jiseonstrned. Opposition members have drawn my attention to certain words used. The hon. member for Cunningham went on to say that I should exhibit some discrimination in regard to the good and the bad. We do not propose to interfere with the good, if you like to class them as such, but we do propose to penalise the bad along the lines that I have indicated. An investigator from the board will go along and if he feels there is anything reprehen­sible, information will be laid and the person concerned will get the opportunity of pro­ducing his bona fides before the magistrate. The hon. member says, ''give 'them' regis­tration.'' \Vho is embraced by 'them'~ I shall now elaborate on 'them'. The hon. member also said that Government members asked, '' I:Vhy don't you bring evidence~ to support your statements~'' and that he had taken the trouble to check the bona fides of some of these people, especially Mr. Black­more who was attacked in this House, and that the hon. member intended to put his case. That is Witness No. 1 for the Oppo­sition. The hon. member asked hon. members to judge them with an unprejudiced mind when dctcrminin<:; who was a charlatan and a quack. If hon. members opposite were the Government they would register Blackmore and Company and probably Blackmore would be chairman of the board; he would be the guy who would issue diplomas to most of his friends and his word would be taken as that of a qualified person. He would have the right to approve of diplomas and the like. \¥hat was revealed here~ I challenged the hon. member for Isis regarding Blackmore and the hon. member said, ''Let your Govern­ment instrumentalitv fin cl out.'' Hon. mem­bers will recollect that he talked about this man's going to Harrow. \:V ell, he was never there. We have that evidence from the Agent-General. "No record of the person mentioned in your telegram having attended Harrow.'' The hon. member went on further to say that this man spent four years at a British naturopathic college. I produced information to show that this man had sworn he was never out of Queensland. Regard­ing the diploma, he said he was a student of St. An tone's College, but in his evidence in another plaee he said he got the diploma by correspondence. To say the least, this fellow is a perjurer.

Another case was mentioned yesterday by the hon. nwmber for Mt. Coot-tha. A naturo­path was found not guilty on a charge of unlawful killing. This subject was raised and debated in all seriousness. This unfortunate girl died of diabetes or as a result of certain treatment she was given for diabetes. Diabetes is a disease enuEing pathogenie change in the pRncr<'ns, resulting in its not functioning. Whcatley stated that to remove fat was to remove the cause of diabetes. Tlw treatment resulted i:>1 thP weakening of thr: patient. When her condition renched a dnn­gerous stage a medical practitioner was called

806 Medical Acts [ASSEMBLY.l Amendment Bill.

in. Wheatlcy told the trial judge that his method of treatment was basically the same for different types of disease. Evidently you would get the same treatment for diabetes as for a ruptured appendix. He went further nnd expressed the opinion that the use of .insulin in diabetes was inconsistent with thR teaching of naturopathy. He stated he used water, his hands, his intelligence, and dieting in his treatment, and made the statement that naturopath treatment would be safer and preferable in every way to the trecttment expounded by Dr. Hirschfelc1. Ordinary people of common sense would think that results speak for themselves.

The patient was treated by Dr. Hirschfelli from 194.'1 to 1955, a period of seven years. Under his treatment she led a normal life and we have every reason to believe that she would have continued to do so if she had continued the treatment under Dr. Hirschfeld. She was under treatment by Wheatley for less than a fo1·tnight when she died.

Whcatley is unqualified; he displays these diplomas and he uses cm-tain medical instru­ments. He implies that he is qualified to net as a doctor. This is the type of person against whom this Bill is directed. U ndcr the Bill people of this type, if caught, will 1Je charged :md prosecuted.

From the tenor of this debate it woulcl appear that this is the type of person Opposi­tion members are supporting, to a rlegree :.tgainst the highly qualified nnc1 skilled medical practitioners in whom the people of Queensland have so much faith. Those are the main reasons for my rejection of this amendment. The Opposition want these people to have the right to use medical instruments.

The Deputy Leader of the OppJ ,iti8n, the hon. member for ::\H. Coot-thn, said yesterday that he had never hr'lrd of Dr. Hirschfelc1. I was amazed at that statement. Another Opposition member mentioned Dr. Boyd.

.:nr. "'I ORRIS: I rise to a point of order. I did not sav I had never heard of him. Of course I h'ltvc heard of him. I said that I did not know him.

jJr. iUOORE: He said he did not know Dr. Hirschfelcl.

;ur. Hiley: That is what he has just Haicl, but the Minister said that the hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha said he had never l1eard of him.

lUr. i\IOORE: I accept his denial. For the information of the Deputy I~eacler of the Opposition, in case there is any doubt in his mind, I shall give briefly Dr. Hirsehfeld 's career and qualifications. He is the man who went into court and gave evidence against the naturopath. Dr. Hirschfelc1 is a M.Sc., Quecnslantl University, l\1.B.B.S., and a member of the Royal Australian College of Physicians. He has been on the visiting staff of the Brisbane Hospital for the past 28 years and hf' is in eharge of the diabetic

clinic. Leading authorities on fliahetcs, such as Lawrence, Dunlop and Best who visitecl this country from overseas to lecture on this subject lm;o visited his clinic and have said that the treatment given there is the same as that given by them. The Opposition who trotted out Dr. Boyd as a supporter of the natmopath are prepared to stake his opinion against that of Dr. Hirschfelc1, a physician in the world class. Wheatlcy 's knowledge of diabetes and its treatment is about 20 years behind the times and Dr. Boycl is to some extent an inconsequential meclico. Hr• clid the tliploma course nt the Glasgow University aud passed in 1935. The standing of this qu:1lification is not as high as that of the degree qualification. He has had surgeries in various parts of Brisbane but apparently he was not successful in his prac­tice as he is now at Lmvood. I am rather surprised that the Opposition should trot out a naturopath and Dr. Boyd against the ver.v eminent world authority Dr. Hirschfeld. Those are the arguments put forward to back the motive of the Opposition in wanting the Government to accept their amendment to put these hig·hly technical instruments in the hands of people who have not been trained and are not qualified to use them.

Blackmore, giving evidence on oath during his bankruptcy proceedings said that he rau a class of nine, that his students paid £22 a year at the start, and that later the system ·was altered and a charge of 5s. for each test paper was made. The money to finance hi~ institute was obtained from women patients. From this it is evident that Blackmore j,

more concerned about the raising of revenue than ·with the issue of worthwhile diplomas.

'l'he question now arises whether thesl irresponaible people should be allowed to use X-ray machines and other medical equipment I point out that an X-ray taken for thl purpose of diagnosis is in itself not diagnosis, it is only supplementary to sigil' and symptoms elicited in the examinatior of the patient. A gun is a pretty highl) technical instrument and there is clanger ir its misuse.

It has been said repeatedly that tlH instruments are merely part of the diagnosis It is true thnt nurses take blood-pressun readings but they do not then come to : decision on the patient's state of health They submit the information to a doctor whc is qualified to eo-relate all the symptoms aw give a decision. That is the gravamen of al this. It does not rest with somebody's jus doing something with an instrument. Th• important thing is what the instrumen reveals. He then applies that knowledge tc the rest of the diagnosis of the patient Collaborating all the information the docto decides vYhat the method of treatment shal be. That appears to be the main point tha the Opposition have missed. There ar degrees of skill in the taking of X-ray photc graphs. The negative has to be understoo• and read with the evidence showing in i1 It is easy to imagine the damage that coni·

Medical Acts [19 OCTOBER.) Amendment Bill. 807

result to a patient from diagnosis and treat· mcnt following the use of these instruments by unskilled people. We all know, for example, that the unskilled use of X-rays can result in the skin tolerance being exceeded, with resultant burning and ulceration.

.lUr. Hiley: There is no dispute about the use of X-rays.

~Ir. lUOORE: Diagnosis on what is dis­closed by a sphygmomanometer or a stethoscope is something for a skilled person.

The matter has been widely debated, and I rely almost entirely on the case presented by the Opposition. They produced details of two unqualified persons and gave me an opportunity of exposing them and pointing out their lack of qualifications. The Government do not propo9e to deviate from the Bill as it stands. It was formulated to give the Government the right to protect people whose lives might be endangered as the Tesult of trc:1tment by unqualified people.

~Ir. HILEY (Coorparoo) (12.18 p.m.): I need no persuasion that any instrument that could be dangerous should be used only by people who are trained and qualified in its use. The amendment refers only to two insb·uments, and little of a convincing nature has been said to show that they are dangerous in themselves. Perhaps the greatest clanger attaching to them is that they are dangerous ~ the impressions they create rather than

for any effect they may have. These instruments are the tools of trade of a partic­ular calling, and to me the most dangerous effect would be that caused by permitting people to surround themselves with instru­meuts that are commonly accepted as marking a qualified medical man.

The impression I gained from the Mini­ster\. remarks was that broadly he has little SJmpathy for unregistered practitioners, nlthough he recognises that a few of them do valuable and effective work. Broadly, t!Jat agrees with my own summing up. Recognising some of these men and giving tl1em permission to use certain instruments \Vould be like giving a watch to a monkey, and 1vould be just about as effective and sensible. The Minister has told us that there are a few people for whose work, apparently, he and his department have a regard.

My whole difficulty in considering the Bill is that no attempt is made to distinguish bet>veen the qualified and the unqualified, the useful and the useless, the helpful and the dangerous. The whole approach of the Bill is to ban all diplomas other than those held by medical practitioners and to ban the use of certain instruments except by medical practitioners. The use of those instruments is deemed to constitute the practice of medi­cine and as such is forbidden to all but medical practitioners. It seems to me that in our very proper desire to circumscribe the unqualified we must not let ourselves ehoose what might unquestionably be easy

1955-2D

to administer. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bill would be easy for the Minister and his officeTs to administer because it calls for no nice decisions. It simply says, ''If you are not a medical practitioner you cannot display a diploma or use certain instruments.'' But should we allow ease of administrative control to guide our legis­lative approach~ That is what I do not like. I do not doubt that full investigation would confirm the impression the Minister has given us, and which is not disputed from this side of the Chamber, that there is a good deal of quackery, which should be controlled, and firmly controlled. But should we take the course of easy administration~ Or have we the courage to say, ''It is not an easy task to distinguish between the helpful and the harm­ful, the qualified and the unqualified, but at least we will make that distinction our guide and devise some way of telling the one from the other. Then we shall treat the qualified differently from the unqualified''~

I had always hoped that the forms of medical treatment under debate would develop a:; aids to the medical profession in much the same way as the masseur and physiotherapist have developed. In other words, there are directions in which people of limited training and qualification may bend their skill and qualification to carry out extensions of medical work, in conjunction with the medical practitioner, to whom diagnosis is reserved. Such people undoubtedly have contributed much to medicine, using the term in the broadest sense. Indeed, I know from my own experience that some doctors quite openly admit that some of the practitioners using bone manipulation, spine manipulation, and other methods, have a contribution to make. Some doctors make no secret of the fact that they have influenced patients to consult those men in certain circumstances. I am sorry to say that I cannot detect between the forms of treatment under suspicion at the moment and the medical practitioner generally the same co-operative approach as is seen with physiotherapy and massage. In that case there has been a recognition of the use and a cross-exchange of the use between the two, and each seems to have recognised the :field that it can fill to advantage.

I am basically opposed to diagnosis by unqualified people. To me, that is playing with fire. Unless they are really well trained and qualified, they often do not know what to look for and do not know what they find. I know one man in Brisbane whose record in the correction of spinal discs and things of that sort is probably as good as any, and his work has been sufficiently good to induce a number of B.M.A. members to refer patients to him, to my knowledge. Not very long ago he sent a man over to see a doctor friend of mine. He rang this doctor and said, ''I am going to suggest to so-and-so that he should come and see you. I have been treating him for months, and I cannot

808 Medical Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

<lo him any goo<l at all.'' The doctor took one look at this man when he came into his surgery and said, ''This man is a classic diabetic." The chiropractor, not having the basic training in all aspects of medicine, failed to recognise what had been apparent for weeks and months and had been treating the man for something entirely different. That is why I am not at all keen that these people in specialised sections of medicine should take upon themselves, as too many of them do, the right to say to the public, ''We can do the whole box and dice. We can diagnose, we can treat, we can cure.'' That is where I think they make their greatest error. If these men were prepared to work with the medical profession and use their skill under the direction of a qualified medical practitioner, with the primary assistance of a proper medical diagnosis, the story of these jealousies would be different.

It is not necessaTy to persuade me that a number of these people, whatever their background, would be faT better hobbled or hamstringed-I do not care which word you use-to put it in plain, unmistakable terms. For example, Blackmore, on some of the evidence and the letters that came before this Committee, is not making any woTthy contribution to the health of the people, all(l I should like the public to be safe­guarded against him, and others like him, in the fail'est way that we can devise.

::\fy difficulty is that the Government, insteacl of saying, ''Well, here we have some people doing useful work and some people who arc qualified,'' and making that approach, are saying, ''All diplomas are out; all use of instruments is out.'' Frankly, that is what I do not like. I wish the :Minister had taken the more difficult course administratively and said at the outset, "We will set out to distinguish on an individual basis who has a background of proper qualification, who has a background of reputable practice an<l successful conduct,'' and dealt with it on that basis, preserving all the good that is inherent in these people. I should like to see the people who could not measure up to those standards prevented from pmctising. I would stop them not only from exhibiting diplomas and using instru­ments if they are not qualified but from practising altogether. If they had no reput­able practice worthy of recognition, I would stop them. It would be false pretences for those people to take a £1 fee from the public. That is why I am disappointed at the Minister's attitude in saying to this Committee, ''There are some people who do good work, and I acknowledge it.'' I wish the Bill contained some measure of acknowledgment.

Hon. W. ~I. JUOORE (Merthyr-Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (12.30 p.m.): If the hon. member for Coorparoo had reminded the Committee of a. few things that I stated earlier I think the hon. member's

speech would have been wholly in support of the Bill. On the introductory stage I said that we would be prepaTed to consider the registration of chiropodists. There are numbers of these people who are well organ­ised, and they have had a number of deputa­tions to my officers and myself. On the sur­face some of them have pretty high creden­tials that will probably bear the light of day. The onus is not on this department to go into the highways and byways to find out the good and the bad, as the hon. mem­ber suggested. Let them make an approach to the Government. I have stated that on a number of occasions. The onus is on them to make application for registration.

.;!Ir. Morris: You do not require that from the physiotherapist.

~Ir. ThiOORE: Many of those people apply for registration. Under other Acts, the necessary machinery has been established to register them and give them all their rights and privileges. I repeat that if. they make application and prove to the satisfac­tion of the Government that they are worthy of consideration we will then give considera­tion to their registration. I make no bones about it. If the hon. member for Coorparoo had added those things I should have saill that he had made a good speech in favour of the clause.

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted from Clause 11 (Mr. Kic klin 's amendment) stand part of the clause~ put; and the Committee divided-

AYES, 40.

Mr. Adair Mr. Hilton Baxter .Tesson Brosnan Kehoe Bro\vn Keyatta Cooper Larcomb€ Crowley Lloyd Davies 1\'i:arsden Davis McCathie

Dr. Dittmer Moore ?>ir. Dohrin~; Pt1wer

Donald Rasey Dufficy Roberts, F. E. Duggan Skinner Eastment Taylor, J'. R. English Walsh Foley Whyte For de Wood Gair Gardner Tellers: Graham Dip lock Gunn 1\ioores

NOES, 21.

Mr. Aikens Mr. Morris Bje1ke-Petersen Nicholson Chalk Nicklin Coburn Pizzev Dewa.r Plunkett Evans Sparkes Fletcher Taylor, H. B. Gaven Hiley Tellers: Kerr Low Jones, V. E. Madsen Roberts, L. H. S~

PAIRS.

AYES. NoEs. ?>fr. Jones, A. Mr. Miiller

Smith Heading Turner Munro

Resolved in the affirmative.

Medical Acts [19 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 809

lU.r. DEWAR (Chermside) (12.39 p.m.): I believe we have made headway on this clausr. I said yesterday on the amendment moved by the Leader of the Opposition that in the introductory stages the Minister was more or less unrelenting in his approach to unorthodox practitioners. By way of inter­jection during the speech of the hon. member for Coorparoo this morning he said that chiropodists were well organised and could easily be recognised. At that time he went on to talk further about chiropractors and in general terms said that they could give some relief in connection with adhesions but that generally speaking their work was ~ovcred_ by orthopaedic surgeons. The Illl presswn I got was that chiropractors were out. Right through the passage of this Bill I have made a case for the chiropractor and no other branch of unorthodox medicine.

~Ir. Aikens: You did not push the bar­row for Blackmore.

Jir. DEW AR: I am not interested in nnyone save the chiropractor because I think he i,; doing an excellent job. I have had evidence from people who have been to {'h~ropractors ~o eonvinee me that they are domg a good JOb. South Australia has seen fit Tecognise this branch of unorthodox medicine to the extent of introducinO" a speeial Act, Section 4 of which reads~

''A person practising as a chiropractor under this Act may in connection with his practice use X-rays for the purpose only of producing shadow photographs of the human spinal column.''

In the \Vestern Australian Act we find that a ehiropractor is specifically mentioned as being outside the section which prevents other thnn medical practitioneTS from using radium or X -ray for diagnosis, the examination on the treatment of any human ailment or physical defect.

The Act takes chiropmctors outside of the control allowed under the Act. In these two States the work of chiropractors has been fully recognised and to the extent that they might use X-rays for taking shadow photo­graphs of the spinal column. I also think thnt similar legislation is pending in New South Wales.

There has been much poppycock talked on the Bill about the damage done by X-rays. A Government member said that it would be possible to cause bad burns with the X-ray machine in the hands of chiropractors. I think the case of Dr. Quinn was quoted. 'l'he hon. member for Yeronga pointed out that _this doctor had been using the X-ray mnclnne for a number of years and his fingers had become affected. That is possible :vit_h the stl·ength of his X-ray machine, but It IS rot to suggest that a chiropractor who uses a machine of the same strength to take single photographs, two or three times a month is likely to suffer similar burns. I point out three basic things. The machine

normally used by radiologists has a strength of 100 milliamps and a k.v. strength of 1,000.

Many shoe stores in Australia are equipped with a machine called a pedascope, an X-ray machine that throws a shadow picture of the bone structure of the foot onto a fluorescent screen. It has a strength of 15 milliamps and possibly 80 k.v., whereas the X-ray machine that the chiropractor uses to take spinal shadow photographs has a strength of 10 milliamps ancl 60 k.v. In other wonls, the machine that the chiropmctor uses is 5 milliamps less powerful than the pedascopes that are used quite freely in many shoe stores. That bears out my statement that a lot of poppycock has been spoken about the use of X-ray machines by unregistered practitioners.

There are in Queensland four members of the Australian Chiropractors' Association some have qualified to practice at the Palmer University in Iowa, U.S.A. The Government could set up a board to check their qualifica­tions, and I see no reason why they should not be resgistered.

\Vhen the hon. member for Cunningham wns speaking about hobbling and hamstring­ing, the Minister interjected, "\Ve are going to do more than hobble the fake blokes.'' That could be interpreted to mean that all unorthodox practitioners are ''fake blokes'', ancl that the Minister is going to deal with them all. However, since the introduction of the Bill I have taken heart from the Minister's repeated statement that in his opinion many unorthodox practitioners are doing good wmk. Some of the distrust with which unorthodox practitioners are regarded seems to have been broken down. I am led to hope, therefore, that the Minister intends to deal vigorously only with the quacks.

I am more hopeful now that any man with the qualifications of a genuine chiro­practor has a reasonable chance of getting registration. I sincerely hope I am correct. I honestly believe with the hon. member for Hinchinbrook that there are men doing an excellent job in the chiropractic field. The only equipment they need is an X-ray machine. As a matter of fact at a fete I was opening I talked with a man in my electorate whom I have known for about three years. He was president of the local school committee. Being interested in the Bill, he broached the subject and told me that he was a chiro­practor. He said he does not use X-ray at all but does all his work with his hands, so he has no problems under the Bill. Another chiropractor I know uses an X-ray machine with a strength of 10 milliamps and 60 k.v., which is far less than the pedascope used in the boot store. I believe that no harm can be done by the genuine practitioner who uses no instruments, pills, or diets but oper­ates by manipulation of the muscles of the spinal column. To ensure that he does no harm, it would be a simple matter for the Medical Board or the Health Department to

810 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

police his activities. I believe that this type of unorthodox practitioner calls for special consideration. At no stage has the Minister or any other hon. member indicated that any chiropractor is a quack. Men in other :fields of unorthodox medicine have been so branded but not the chiropractors. They deserve more consideration than it appears they will get.

It is interesting to note that the use of hypodermic syringes are forbidden to all but medical practitioners. The qualified nurse often uses a hypodermic syringe, but under the Bill she will not be permitted to use it except under the instruction and super­vision of a medical practitioner. If the pro­vision is enforced, many people will suffer needlessly or else many qualified nurses will break the law. I am told by some of my country colleagues that in many country hospitals nurses operate X-ray machines. The hon. member for Burdekin tells me that at the Ayr hospital one of the nursing sisters does. At the Chest Clinic in George Street the nurses take X-rays. Under the Bill, they can take them only under the supervision of a medical practitioner. It would be ridicu­lous if no X-ray could be taken unless a doctor was actually standing and watching. So the drafting of the Bill will have to be tidied up.

I remind the Committee, too, that a dentist uses a hypodermic syringe and an X-ray machine. I could not :find anything in the Dental Acts giving the dentist the right to use an X-ray machine or a hypodermic syringe. Under this Bill, no dentist will be able to take an X-ray photograph or give an injection of cocaine to remove a tooth unless a doctor is standing by.

Under this Bill, if an unqualified or unorthodox practitioner actually took a course in radiology and had an X-ray machine and :J, qualified X-ray technician in his office, he would not be allowed to use an X-ray machine because he would be holding himself out as a chiropractor, not a radiologist. Even if a chiropractor had a practice that was so large that he could afford to employ a radiologist and radio-technician, he could not have them in his office. He would still be advertising as a chiropractor and, as a chiropractor, under this Bill he would not be allowed to have an X-ray apparatus in his office.

I think the Government have rushed into this haphazardly, and I think it is time they gave further consideration to the Bill. If they did, they might take a different course.

I move the following amendment-

'' On page 8, line 4, omit the words­

' or an x-ray apparatus.' ''

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 1 p.m.

Questions.