leoislative assembly debates
TRANSCRIPT
THE
LEOISLATIVE ASSEMBLY DEBATES
(Official Report)
Volume Ill, 1936
(JltA F•rury to 1111a Marcia, 1911)
THIRD SESSION OP THB
FIFTH LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, � _1 e,Jtt.
1936
KBW DELIII
OOVDDENT or INDIA PIUIU
ltl8
/:�,r:6 &.,;!�,.���
7
9th March 1936
Legislative Assembly.
T •• Bo.o~ 8m ABD17B ~. K.C.B.I •• KT.
Depulr Pruitlettl : 4 •. "
MB. Abu. C!uBDU D.A.TTA. M.L.A.
l Patid 0/ OAa.",..,. :
j.... P.AlIDlT GoVIlfD B~'BR PAliT. M.L.A. Sm OoWASJI JmlAJNim. BAaT •• K.C.I.E., O.B.E •• M.LA. Sm LIIBLDI Rh80., KT •• M.L.A. SIB MUIlAIDIAD YAIIIl' K ...... KT .• C.I.E •• M.LA.
8...,.,: , .1\0 Mull M11JUlDIAD RUI, BU.-AT-LAW. t
au BAHADU. D. Dtrrr.
~ Man~t
" c.-or ~ 8..".,. No. ~ 1Uru, ~.o., I.O.M., LA.
. . Oom","'- 011 P~ :
JrI .. AlDIIL OJwmaA DATTA, M.L.A., O_irma •• SIB LIIILQI RVDIOK. KT., K.L.A. Ha. B. Du. K.L.A. Da. Z1AUDDIK AmuD. C.I.E •• M.L.A. lIa. M. 8. Any, M.L.A.
~ ~.~ --. ---'--,-, ~ ' . ~~ , ' ~ ' . -, ~ "':I' " """ 4':' ,-t\l_ . ~t
t ~ \ • ;'.[: ! . ,( , _ ,. .; I
__ :,'.: VOl.'tllB .~ ~ to 1711& Mard..l'36.' '~ J
"
aTll.AY, 28ftr ~ .
10'6-~ o ".' • PMII!btatiOll, of the Budget lor 1818·87 .
The Indian . .l"InImtie .BiJ,l-intrdduoed
-8tatellnent pf B~ . ' i
.rro.DAY, bD M.utar. ! 1916-, ~~ ~., AF-ent ~ .t.Iae ~o .~
of India in _.c...ncil ...-ina, I by and throulih" th8 .L Governor - .~. 1. ~ nt of the . UDited ~ of Acra and Oudh. Uld
l ...~ ~ o~ General ~ CIt' the Gmeral Budaet. .
/' m>JlZllDAY, .~ ~, . 1936- . , G--.I m..-ion of ....
•• GL
1780
~
18011 ,~
1808-41
~
G«leral....... . . ltII-lNt Statement of B..... lHt-.l
Pa..
....... 101'
101t-1t
'lnPu, 1., ....,...:,'::'; 1186- '. . """;0 ~ .... ~ . """6-JII1
', .. r :iI> .• , I ~ 'rJt':t"; 1
ll' th! : 9_; . j, if ~ , !
~ ---. ~ .. .~ .. -... --
Ii
'l'vaDAY. 10'1's )lABOB. ' ~ t' .
'-=t"P, .... :I "'-.. ... .,.. IITB .c.. I n.~ . tr.:ri98a- JIAaoa.
BJectIoD of )lemben to the St.aodiDc Com· mittee for ~ •..
'!'he n ~ , .. List. of I)pnand_
.... ··6c}jjlit . .......... --
· ... ~ No. 11.-l!'oreip. ~ Politipal
a. t ~.
Periloue nature of the fonrw poIiey ~ .. '.' lued by. tB. Go· vel'llDl4llt. ..... of , ,
Stu ,
India.. . • ".111-27 ~ .. ·.JiMmand No. 11._
Executive .. CloUlllOil--- :. .,.,: No oo ....... 'in .... < . "., i Govenunet [ ..• ,.;. 2U'--80
,·li,'. »em.td. No. 79.- " .. BaluohilMD-.. ,.. " '. , ExpendRare r due' to " .•..... eartlaq ........ ,." , .. Quet.. , .. , . '" ·,-l1li-89
QuMtiona and ADlwen • ~ , ".I Uft .... _,: .,~
il.· , ';;i&wen '. . ' ~
~~ ~ .~. ~ ... ' M~ .·.fta General Budget-
List of', Demarid_, aoncltl.. 111)9-68 ., Demand No. ,llho ".,.,. ,. .' ~. ·11.··.' .. ~~ ' .Griev--~. ~ ',. .
~ ~ ., ' ;! : .• j : ClDk»mI ~ '. I . ..wJ. h _ ";' ment.,. •. ,,;',. ~ ' ,. ,,
. 'POIition of ''B~ . . )In_II ... - •
~, , oM ,'". at Caloatta a.nd . t ~
; ... , t~ hrt;,.', ' ~
Demand '''No:' ',11.'--' ,'" ' •• TU:8IOQ ~ ' ' __ 111
Demand:, N6."· ' ~ .,' . Salt ~ . " . UN Demand· . lifo; ' ~ Opiwn :; , ;
Demand No. 19-A-11116-21
Excise'" . . .~ UM ~ P n 'ifo;:,' ~ I "'!1
~ I .. '&tampa ·1118-27 ~ ~ o. II ..... J: 1 ,,~,
1 '··/"PoreeL ;" ,. '.f i, '.' 'UI7 Demand No. 22-IrrigatidJi' ifao11lCl1Dg·: ".' -: ".:
' ~, ':.:, .',111 .bepkment •. :MId ', .. ". "Drainap ,WOIkI ;. ':,' ,,1117 Demand No. 23-Indian ~ and Telegraphl Depart-:ment . (inoludiDc . '.," WorkinIJ ~. '.,~ "roertain . ~ of the ·_P1oy.. of the l'oaWJ De· partmlilt. .. ~. oiallt . 'Mle pie-! an.o '~ and tile If'iDi.· HI'V_,* .. of . tbt-.. '
"". '~ nt • .~ POIitioD ofmJDori"'-. in Beapl ...... ~ PciIIal Circle.... . ~ High rae. tor teleo '
•... : phone t.nmk oan.. ~ Demand 'No. 16-1Il. __ on 'DaM IiIIi4
'.,'.! Reduotion 01' Avoid • . __ .. _arfDelll __ o. _ .•..
...... T=Z" ·-m ...... --.,== L ~' } _ '..r ' _1.:_ .. " I ,~~ hIDAY,18T1l'K .. CJt,'l'1JlIU ,. ,I' ,."
-COftId" 'j .• , ' ,._-
The n~ B ~ ""': List of ~n ~..... ,' 'ft-__ .. v_ •. ~~. , . .uv; Ibll 11Iii8Ua·:- " .. '. DeOU8 ~ 2580 , _ •. Demand to~' IT:":" "". Stall', BoqMholdaad' ,
AUOW'''' (II ;:. the" . , Govenior o8nerilt ," I650-M
'" : Demand No, -.-:" ExecutiVe CoIUlOil , ' Demand o'~ '~' I' Counof,1 'Of' State ,:"
Demand No,' · ... lA, ',' , pJ.ative, ~ " , . and ' 'L8PJat(v,'" AMemblt ' ~ , xnent , "',, • Demand ~o', .... .. '~'
ForeigD 'a'nd Pot ~ ' ~t " .
2l1li11
2111111
2655
21555 Demand No, ~Home ~t ,2555 Demand· '~o, '83-J .~
Publio ~. '." ('.orpmlR!on ,', "',:' ,,',,: :21155
.. ,Demand No.'''''S4 • ...1 :n' LegillIative ~., , .' , ment : . " ," ,.r ",1': 11138 DaDand No, 3A:-:'-nfl. "1
partmfllit: tit 'B ~ '" tion lha'Kb. '1iPI ',')., . Land. ,', : "'.''''':'''' 1558
. Demand ~ ' "'', . I., "'I" ' Finance' ',. t ""';1: .,' 26118
" ;., '; Demand 11'6" .. ' ~ ',,: ,
~ t' ' ' 'l16l8 ' Demand.a: B,, ~ .""
.. , . : fenoe I>epartmeti, ' "" I',: 16118
.', '~ an No; 4«J.L:be. ''''',',' "".-partment of IndWl· tn. SlId La)bur ,. ' ~ . ,.' ,._
Demand No. '1- :-['1. i
/>',';< <Mitral BoIiIIIi< 'cI -,,,. """. Beven.,. "U '"I, I. .. "MII7
" .. Dlmand No, 41--, ,,: ,,", Paym"40 1'IIItviDo" " •. ·;1 cial aovwn-ti 0., l
• -·i·: AOOOUIl& of 'deW. , tratlOD: " of, c • ......,. .. Subj .... -.'.... .' , .. , a , .~ . :, ....... ' , Audit , ·'.f,:f. Demand 50, "'-+4W. "
T'
:1657
. '2567
~. ·· ........ tion ,of ' JU8tiae .• , ,,' ,' •• ,,1' ;''''' ' .. ,l1li7 Demand • :,.0.. ,. 4a..o.;· 'r .
k '~ Polioe • ., • II.,.:;'" 126117 DaDao.d. ~ ~ . ~'''''' ''' i' " ~ Port.uad,PfIot,.t..w,.," '; ,·2557
Demand ".': ",,,,411'+-.,,, , .. ,.j '." 'llt! a ~ ' . ~ Ii H
Lipt.UJp. 1168
Jut
J5511
IllS
UM
IIMW. UM
UM
IIMW.
III4W.
, taU
1-1615
11116
IH6
,j
15M
J'aIDAIr,13T11 x,uca. ~ ~
TheGen.ra1 B ~ OIDe .. n~' """!';':"'." , Demand ~ " ' ~o t .'~~' ~t., ~ .... , ., "
I>ema:nd Ng.' ~. ption • '. •
Demand' ":No. '91..,-Incti.ul' Polte li.nd Telegrapbi .' . . Demand ~. ..·A....,. C. itel Out1&1' oh ~, o ~ ~ tural ImplOvell;llOllt , ao ~ . '.'" to an~ o. t3-ctir·' , rency Capi,tal Olit!a.v
, ,Demand No. II+.:-• c.pitel Out\a,y on , Vir.appatam Jlar. bour ' •
Demand No. f6-:-C.pita! ,Outlay OIl LiPtho..- and LightlhUII . .
Demand 1(0. 98--Com· muted \'.Iue of Pen.iOWl . "
Demand N'6. . .~ '
~ OIl Be· __ abe4 ~ ~
oharpd to CUIW, ' . Demand'No.91:..:.ti8'thi C.pital O,'Ia, . . Demand 50,_ ,.,-.-Tq. telwt-flI:., Ad' ,r
Demand1fQ. ~ and AcI __ .... ing tnter .. ,'. •
Matement of Bu ....
KOIIrDAT. 16TH ~. 191&-
, ,
IMT
laeT
1M' .,<,ISlT
~ 1188
Qw.tioo'lIDd ~ • IHt-I8Oe aort Notice Qu_ti_ and ADBwet .'.,' ItM--OT lII-.e from W. ..... . len07 the V ......... : Governoro-awt .' ,
The Parli ....... and Divorce Bill-AI pa-.tt by the <"_Mil orlNate, ,
leoT
laid 00 the Table . 1; HOT Statement IIlicl ,*' ..,' '. ", Table . . ; ... ' '·IIOT-ol
..aeotion o( .... ben to· .. " , the PublW' ~ta ~ t... . . I:leotioa o( a llemW to ; . ·the ~ ,ow. •.
1110
mitteeOD ~ to , B.cIi- '. ." • !,,;;. J.10
.r,_ • • .~
y
PUll. P~ •.
JlO.D.T, ll1'a MUOJI, 1818 MonA T, 141ft M.AaOJl, 1016
--(JOftId. ~
The Coohin Port Bill-TbeIDdi&DPiDaDoeBill-~ on the
IntJooduoed. 1611 motion to eoa.Ider not oona1uded • . . HIJ-It
The Factorlee (Amend. ~ . , 1'h1l 1I.uc!B, ~
ment) BiU-Introduoed 1611 lOIS-QueetJou ADd Aanen • 1861-07
·The Cantonment. The IndiIoIl FlnaDoe BfD-(Amendment) Bill- ~ on the Be-oommitW to SeIeot motion to GOUlder not Committee 1611-11 OODoluded • ITOT-SO
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.
Jion",. 9tl& Mo.,ol&. 1936.
The Assembly mt't in the Assembly Chamber oi the Council House a' Elf-ven of the Olock, Mr. President (The Honouraille Sir Abdur Rahim) in the ChJlir.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS.
HB4LTB OJ' lrfB. RAM KIsXAN DBTAJlQI:D UND_ R YOULA'J'IOlf III OF 1818.
1002. *Kr. Sbam Lal: (a) Is it a fact that Mrs. Ram Kishan, wife ot Mr. Ram Kishan, B.A. (National), detained by the Punjab Government under Regulation III of 1818, has telegraphically applied to the Punjab Government for permission for examination of her husband by a board of doctors of her choice?
(b) Is it a fact that this request has been turned down by' the Punjab ... Government?
(c) Will Government state the reaSOJlS for the same?
The Honourable Sir Henry Oralk: (a) and (b). Yes.
~ (jc,vf'rnment are satisfied tluat adequate arrangements have been made for the ~a exami':lstion and treatment of the State Prisoner and • do n~ consider it necessary to supplement these arrangements by leeking f)utside medical advice.
1Ir. S. Satyamurtl: Whllt is the health of this prisoner now, /Lccording t. ... the lat.est. informat.ion available to Government?
The lIcmourable Sir Henry Ora1k: I an8wered that question OD the last ~ when the Assembly was sitt.ing. As far a8 I remember, it is fuir. He is in hospital now.
.,. 111'. S. Satyamarti: HUI! he improvf'ti in health?
The Honourable Sir Henry Oraik: T cannot say.
111'. S. SatylJllurtl: Will Government make enquiries, Imd find out t ~ his t ' ~t nt in tlte hospital is resulting in improvement, and, if
not. wJll ('TOVf'rnll1<!nt. aUow the request to get outside medical help? • The BQ,!ourable Sir H8Il17 Oralk: If the Honourable Member will look
up the P. ~ ~R laRt day when the As.embly was sitting, he will find ~ t what .1 said. T cnun" now remember exoctly what reply r ftave on that occasIon.
( 2041 )
umUILATIVE ASSKMHI,V. L 9TH MARCH 1988.
COl;NTHI}o:R lIA:-.ISIXO Oil RJo:t;'!'mCTJNCl IMI'01(1'8 OF INDIAN GOODS.
100S. ·Mr. '1'. S. AvlDllhilbl,Am Ohettlar: Will Government state:
(8) what were the countries that had banned or restricted imports of Indian goods before the Ottawa Pact;
(b) what Rre the countries that havc completely banned imports of Indilm goods after the Ottawa Pact;
(c) what Ilre the countries that have restricted the import of Indian goods after the Ottowa Pact; nnd
(d) whether ony aUempts have been made since the t~a a Pact to make trade agreements between India nnd other COUD-t,ries; if so, with whom ond with whllt result.s?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: (3), (b) /llld (c). The H'Jnonrlihl<· Member is referred to the Jist of restrictive mefIF.ll\res RT'pliE'd by ~' o OOVerIlTlWnt.R against imports since 1927, a copy of which is in the Librory of the Legislature. I may, however, repeat. what T have stated previollsly in the HolU'Ie, tQat· these reslrictive meA!mreS nre not applicable only to goods coming IrC'm Indio.
(d) The Hon(lIIrnble MembE'r is referred to the 'Convention and l'rotocol regarding the Commercial Helations bptween India and .Tapan'-copies of whieh arc 111 .. 0 llvuiluhle in the Librury.
Mr. S. Satyamurtt: Ts that the only ngreement .. referl'ed tc. in part (d)?
'!'he Honourable Sir Muhammad ZafruIlah Khan: Yes, Sir.
PBOTlIOTION TO TBB CoOOAN17'l' 1111'D'tTSTaY.
1004. "'Dr. '1'. S. s. :aalan: (a) Will Government be rlf'ased to st·ate t'I'! 8l't:nn thrw hnVL tRken, or propose to tRke. with ~~ , t" the n~
of cocoanut, and copra and cocoanut oil, the facts ~a n which have neen rIB( E'll "eflJre the Government of India and His EXI'811ency the Vicero,· by thE' deputRtion ,"f !lome Membp.l'Il of this H:>l18e along with the President of tho Cocoanut Growers' Association of Travnncore?
(11) Are Government contemplating the imposition of nn impo>t dutv on coconnuti aJ'.d COCOAnut products against importati:)D int., India, parti-culArl.\' from (!(:ylon?
(e) If RlI import dut, .. is considered impractical. whRt other effective IDeRSUL'O! of ot ~t, 'n do they intend promulgating to re1!evI' the Rcute ,bstrel!8 pre'vailin\,( ill thl"! cocoanut industry in this country, farticularly in South India ['lld the States of Travancore and Cochin?
(d) Will (lovCl1'llment be pleased to state what llotion the:v propol8 to take with regard to the recommendl1tions of tho Sub-Committee of the Impllrial Council of Agricultural R.Jsearch with reg'lrd to the question of protection of the cO('.(lanut industry?
'!'he Honourable Sir Muhammad Zatrallah Khan: (R), (b) and (d). I would refer the Honourahle Memher to the. answer ,nven by me on the 6th F'ebruury to Mr. Mutburanga Mudaliar's question No. 130.
(c) The Imperial CC»Ploil of Agricultural Research will shortly undertake :tl market.jug survev in the interests of the cocoanut growing induf;t\·y. Other rlll'lISlJreH of' ltSIIisbH1CfI Buch ns revision of rent and debt rl,duction '~ ' ' I rirlH!ti 1.\' the ~on ' n of t.lle local administr",Liot'la.
Dr. T. S. S. :aalan: Mny J know the ~ nt . ~t prirp of ~ t
!'heJlOl1ourale Sir Muhammad Zafru11ah Khan: T would requiro notice of that question.
Dr. T.· S. S. Bajan: Since t.he lust t.ariff vRlufI WIlS raised. lire Govern-lnNlt ownrf' of the price of cocoanut and COCOlUlut l'rorluct!'?
The Jlonourable Sir Muhammad Zatrullah Khan: If the Hononrable Mcmher's questioll is whcth"r y;.rintiollH in price come to Uw notice of the 'GoW.'TJlInent, tlw U118\\'1;\1' it! YI;\S; if the HOllouruble Memher's question is ·whet.her fit this moment 1 am aware of whnt the priCI" of ('OCOlllluts nnd ' ~n prodll(·tf> iH. the "nswer is DO.
Dr. T. S. S. RajaD: Whnt, iH the vnrintioll?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zairullah Khan: As T havl1 said. I would rel)llire notiee.
IIr. S. Satyamurtl: Since ("yovernment hRvt' tllrl1ed down the prop08ul ~ huY(' nn import, t~ for the' J,reRC'nt, at, Iflllst, UlII." T lrnow if Government bl\\'e ('x'imined the pml8ible ef'feds of the other skps whioh th.., Honourr.ble Momhpr nwntiorwd'! IIII\'(' tlH',Y come to Hny conclusion to whllt. extent, if :111.". ;Hwh RtepR will rC'lieve the dist.resR ' ~ nR amODp, ~ n t
-prO"'f'I'S :1
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: On th(' last occilsion T repliecl t.hRt t.hE' present, rate of hLriff vllhwR WIIS such t,hat, the Govern-ment imagined thnt n consiclerahle IImollnt of relief wo1l1iI reBult-. from it, to tli" ' ~ t growen; in t.he Kerala country.
JIr. S. Baty.murtl: Will the Honourahle Mt>mhor obiuin illformution as t ... th" ~ n t relief obtainec1 by the growers of cocoanut, and plnce that, informat:ion on the table of the House?
·fte HOIlourable Sir Muhammad Za!nJllah KhaD: The information will continue to (!ome to the Oovernment lind (,he Gov('rnment. wiII conf.inut' 1;0 form thllir own opinion from t.ime to time.
JIr. S. SatyamW11: Will they plnm;\ t.he infomJULioll Oil til(' tnbk of t)1ll HouRe?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah lDwl: After Fufficient time h08 v\s)J8ed to enuhle Government to collect, nil the information. und if Ii .question is put .• J will be very glad to furnish t.he infonnoUolI.
CONTRACT PaR TIlE CoN8TRl1CTIOlf 01' TIUI Howaur BRIDGE.
1005. "Mr. '1'. B. AyI"IIh"fn,am CJbewar: Will Government. atate: (n) whether they are aware of the report regarding the new Howrah
Rrid/le contnwt, PUb1iRht>d on page 1 of the National Call of the 6th February, 19M;
AI
. ~ . ASSEMBLY. [9TH MARCH 1986.
(b) whether the Chairman of the Bridge Contracts proposes to give the contract to a British firm;
(c) whether the report is true; and
(d) whether they sIre prepared to use their influenCtl to get the con-tract for an Tndilm firm?
The Honourblfl Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Xhm: (II), (b) and (c). The Government of fndiil }1Il1"l! !oil I'll tlw rC'port but /IT(' 1IIIIIIIh' to say whether' it is true. (d) As I hR\"\" t'xplnilwd 't' ~, the Howl'llh Bridge Commissionen;
are, suhject to the lI\-1proml of t.i1C local Government, competent to Hccept tendcJ'8 for t,lw (IOIlRotnwt ion of the Ilew Howrah Bridge. Thl' Government of India hnn' UII stilt 11101'," pOW£'l'R in the mntwl'.
Mr. T. S. Avlllalhlllngam Ohetttar: What is thl' repl.' to part (d)?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: I hllHI nlr'Plloy ~t '
to fhnt on RP\'l'rlll ~.
Pandlt LalaIhmt Kanta Mattra: Whllt, is till' Iwtllnl position with l'oglLl"il to thiR lit· tIll' III·t·NI'llt. n ' ~ ?
The Honourable Stt Muhammad Zafrullah ][han: I dn not. know ",hnt thu u(ltuul pORition i'l III, tit .. pr(,!oo('J\t '~
Pandtt ·LakIhml Kanta Matva: HIIM t,he HOllouruhlt, l\-I.·mlwl' I'HHHl'el Oil to the Port Illlthoriti!!I. HIP !.lIhstm\('.c of tl1£' rt'preRtlntlilioH mnlie to him ~
Hc.nourahl(, Ml'rnhert'! from H!'ngnl?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad ZafruUah Khan: .I :till HUrl'· th( Loeal Governmcnt. I.rl' fllll.,· IlWllrl' of the r['['lingH of Ihi,. HOIIK(' with regllrd to tit;,. quostion?
Pandlt LakBhml ltanta Mattra: Am I to lImlel'sttl·nd thllt t,\\l' Uowrn-· ml'lIt hn,,1' lIot pl\!O!M!'d 011 tIll' ~ t ' ' rJf the repre!'entlliioD mHcle h:v Honournhlp M,'mlwrf; from BClIg1i1 to the BI·ngal ' t,~'
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: TIll' Honoul'ahlt· l\11'1I1-ber IIlIlY 1101, undl'rs{;und anyt.hing further from what J have 1\8id. I CUll' ass III": diP HOlIs£' t,hlll, (.\\1' (l.o,'prnll1Pllt· of B!'llgnl nrl' in full }los;;t'!:: .. ioll of tb ... Rent,imf'lltR ,'If HOllolII'llhlt· Ml'llllwrs.
("t'J:rl\'A'I'ION OF 'rl:A IN Tn}: Nn.GIRII'I.
100ft ·Mr. T. 8. AviDublUng&m Ohettiar: Will Government state: (&) whether it is true that they have allowed ahout four thouBanlt
acres of new cultivation of tea in the Nilgiris;
(b) whether the permission for this fresh cultivation was give1l' wholly to Europelm planters;
(c) whether smal1 Indian' estate holders hllve not he en properly treated in t.his matter;
(d) whether they have resolutions on this subject passed at puhliC' meetings of the email growers of tea in the Nilgiris; and
(e) if so, what action they have taken in the matter?
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS.
Tbe JIoDourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullab Khan: (u) and (u). No, Sir. New cultivation which has been permitted in the whole of South Indill is .. follows:
Indian-owned Estates ~ o n o n . Estates
... 28,IJ'60 acres. ,.. 846:36 Bcres.
'(c) Government have no reason to believe that 1Im81l Indian estate bolders have not been properly treated.
(d) and- (e). Government have oo ~ from t ~ nt ~ ' M·esBrs. M. K. Bellie Gowder and H. B. Arl Gowder, copIes of certam resolutiolls said to have been passed ali meetings of small growers of teR on .the Nilgiris and these resolutions are lit present under consideration.
1Ir. T. S. AviDaabillDgam ObetUar: Are Go\'t'rnmellt in a position to state how much of this fresh cultivution is by the smtiH gr·:)wers and how much by the large growers?
'l'he Honourable Sir Mubammad Zafruftab KbaD: 1 would require notille of that question.
1Ir. T. S. AviDaabiliDgam Obettiar: Then, fl'OIIl whnt, mllteriul did the Honourahlp Member sa:y that the small growel'S hll\'e heen allCltted their proper share?
'l'he Honourable Sir Mabam.mad Zafrullab KbaD: There j", nothing to .how thnt thel'e WEtS nnfairness in the allotment. 'fhere is no specific allegation, nor any facts put forward from which nn inference of unfaimc88 -can be drawn. ~o mnt.eriRIs hRve heen put forwnrcl to support. sllch lin allegation.
1Ir. T. S. AviDuhlltngam Ohettlar: May 1 j,al{(' it that this answer which the Honourahle Member gllye was given wit-hout the matter being investi-gated and without making any reference to the locnl authorities in Madras ~'
'l'he Honourable Sir Muhammad Zatrullah Kb&n: What, local investi-'Ption does the Honourable Member mean?
Mr. T. S" AvtaaablUnlaDI Ohettiar: To enquire in Madras whether t.he small growers hBve been a ott~ I,heir proper share?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: Government hRve no nason to believe that small o ~ hRve not been properly trented.
MBJlBJlBS 01' TRB LocAL CollPfI'l'TBE 01' TIDII NILOIBI8 tTNDJlB TIIB 1'1:,& Colft'BOL Am.
1007. -Mr. '1'. S. Avtnyhutnl&Dl OheWar: Will Government state: (a) the number of members of the Local Committee of the Nilgiris
under the Tea Control Act of 1988; ·(b) whether there is 0., one Indian on it; (0) whether t ~ is no one to represent the small growers:
J.EGISI.ATIVJo! ·AHHEMJII.Y.
(d) whether t~ small growers represent nearly one-fourth of the' total tea growing area; and
(e) if 80, whethtlr they I1rtl prtlpared t.o COllsider the advisability of giving repreSeJlwtioll to the small growers on the conlJllittee?'
The Hoaourabie air Kuhammad. Zafrullah Khan: (11), (II). (c) lind ~ .. Th{'r(' is 110 \01'111 n tt ' ~ of I hI' Xilgiris undm' the Iueliun ~ ,Pontrol Act, 1033. Tlw Houtl, "ulill HtulldiuH Huh-Committetl of the Indian 'reu Lic'pnlling ('Ollllllittl'(' 1'1'11I'(,III'lItK till ~ of the Hout.h Indian ten inter-Ollt" lind eOlllli,,\!! of fOIlI' EIII'OIIl)"1I IIlId three Indian memhl,rR, One IlIdhUi member a ~ reprmwsnts the Nilgiri smllll growers being the hend of the Badllgn community.
(d) The small ~ ' ' ill S(\uth India represent only three per cent_ of the t.ot.fl.l urcn IIndt'r tel.l in South Indiu.
Mr. T. a. Avtnqbtllnpm Ohet\lar: In view of tho fa.ct that the 8mall gr(lwers lire not l't'lIl1y vocnl, will Govennl1ent consider the RdviBllbility (If DlRldng u nmehint,rv h\· whieh t,heir view!'; clln he usccrtninE'd ?
, . • I
The Honourable air Kuh&mmad. zafrullah Ithan: I have alreadv sub· mitted fhnt 0111' IIlClill1l 1IH'lnlwr f'I'Pllinll,v rl'prPRl'ntll tIl(' Nilgi;'j small" grow-~ B.
111'. T. 8. AviDalhlliD.am Ohettlar: Is Iw cleetl'd by the smull growers?'
The Honourable air Muhammad. Zafrullah lthan: That I could not .8Y: but he mURL he II Rmall f.,1J'OWPf himself us he l'Pprl'R(1ntR (.he intermlt8 of smull f,1J'owpr!;,
MUSLIMS IN THE COMJ'ANY-MANAIlED RAILWAYS ANll IN THE AllD1T AND
ACOotfNTH SERVICE O}' THE ASSAM BENGAL RAILWAY.
lOOR. >l'Mr. Muhammad Anwar-ul·Azim (011 hl'half of MI'. l\1. lihins-urldin). \ViII ' ~n 'nt pl"!l!\(! Rlrtt,,:
(ft) the numh('r of MU!llimll ill t.he sUI>tlI'io/, lind subordinate grades of the ~ o n n ' Railways Rnd the Muslim pro-portion with regard to other communities;
(b) t,he number of Muslims in the Audit and AeMunts Service of tIl(' Assam Bongal Railway;
(0) if the number of Muslims is below the proportion fixed by them, what immediate st.ep8 t·hey propOl!e t() tftke to redress com-munal inequalities?
The Honourable air Muhammad. Zaf1'IIUah Khan: (II) Ulld (Il). The' informution in (he POI!Kt'Bhioll of (;O\'prlllllt'n(, wit ~ ,'egllrd ,1;0 t. ~ actual. cr,mposit.ioll IIf "t·llft' 011 tht· ~o ' , n 1: 1111 WII,\"S, mdudmg thp ASllum Hlmgal Uuihmy, i .. ~ont'R n in Appendix 'F' t.o the lICport by the-Rai!\\n,Y BOlll'rl 1111 I\ldiolll ~ , VlIlulIW 1. for a ~
(I') OO\'l'I'lIll1l'lIt, 11M HOllllllrubll' ~ t' ' t ~ UWlLre, hllH' fixed· n~ Ages for MIIMlims 011 i,IIIMI< I Hnih, :lyR (l'xdIllUn/-! t .~ ~ n 's ~ . o ~ Brul\\ UVB), Be liN t~ MU'url' for t\WIn 25 per cent. 111 future dIrect recrmt-ment ';'1 1111 th:'Rt' ' ~'R tokf'n together, provided uandidAtes poslwssing thtl n ,~ .' '1lllllificllt,iollR !tfl' IIvuilllblt" It is not the intentiull of Govern
~nt to mak!' brood th(' o ~ R existing prior to .Tuly. 19.!J4.. in the, recruit-nwnt of allY 'o n t.~ ,
QUEMTJOrrR ANt> ANSWBRR. !O47
OoftHCTS !'OR IOE AND AEBA'l'BD WATD ON THE NORTH WESTON . RAILWAY.
)(JOIJ. *1Ir. Kahammad .lDwar-ul-AJllm (on behalf of Mr. M. Obia,,-uddin): (8) Is it It het that iCE: IlJ\d IPrated water contracts on the North Western Railway hav&. again been given to those who held t.hem during the last toea80ns?
(b) Is it a fact that applicutiom: were always invited for these contracts annually? . •
(c) Is it a fact that such applications were not invited this yelir? (d) Is it a fact that since the introduction of the system of giving out
these contracts, they have alwI\y8 heen granted to approved contractor!: for one season only at a time?
(e) Is it a fact that, contrary to all precedents, theso contracts havt' been granted" this time for three years and thltt also without inviting applications?
(f) Is it It fnet thllt there is no Muslim ice and ~ nt water contractor on the whole of the North Western Hailway? •
(g) lR it 8 fact that repre .. entati!>ns have from time to time been made by responsible Muslim Associations for the appointment of at least one ~ il'(' lind I1'rated wllj(·r ~ont, . t. on tht' North WeHtern Railway?
(h) Is it a fact that such a representation was recently made to the Agent, North Western Railwuy, by' the Muplim representatives of the Nort.h·West Frontier Province, through the Local Government? If so, what action was taken thereon?
(i) If the answer to parts (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e) be in the affirm-ative, will Government please state the reasons for their departure from the established practice?
(j) If the answer to parts ~, (g) and (h) be in the affirmative, will Government please state if there are any reasons for debarring the Muslims from the grant of such II contract and ignoring the representation of the MuslIm community 'I
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Z&fra11ah 1Dwl: (a), (c) and (f). Yea.
(b) No. Applications are imited only whl::11 it is considered necessary So make a change.
(d) The Agent states that the records available indicate thnt licenses were granted in 1918 for a period of two yean, but usually tbe licenses h"ve been for one year only.
(e) It was proposed this yeaI' to make the licenses cover a period of three yf'&r8. but terminable b, either party on three months' notice at any time, nnd by the AdministratIOn without noUce if there was any failure on thf" pRrt of the licellgees to carry out. the provisions or their licenses.
(g) As far 88 can be aecertlined, only one representation from " Muslim Associst.ion was received, and that in December, 1985, from t.he President. Muslim ASl'Ocliation, P('shawtlr.
LBOISLATIVK ASSEMBLY. [9TH MARCH 1986.
(b) No, bllt the 10C$1 Government asked 1,11(' Agent to send them a copy of the reply that was sent to the President, Muslim A88OCiation, Peshawar. This W88 done; the reply reao1il BS follows:
"Thllt t ~ AdmiuiliLratioli after duo conlideration has decided to rene.w th .. !iceD" ()f the preRp.l1t ice and .rated water contract. for a period of three yean." ... (i) It WIlS represcnted to the Administration that licensees would he
reJulltant to invest the neces'sary capital for improving their serviceB if their limenscs wcrB fnr II yenr onl.\". Tj, WIlS, suhf'l'quently, decid("d, however, that the licenses sillmid (Iontilllw us lwrtltoforp to be for eaeh seaSOll only.
(j) Lifl(.nsc.,: Ill'l' given to those who, in the view of the Administration, art; shit; to ghc the Iwst. service to the travelling public. No particular ccmmnnitJ ls barred from gett.ing /lny contract.
Mr. Lalchamd .,valrai: The Honourllbk. Memher said that licenses have hllan for one year only. Is it a fact that on thfc' North \V estern Railway from Karachi to ~a o Mr. Bliss is getting a C'.ontract for this lBl"ated wntcl' und ice for more than one year? . The Honourable Sir Kuhammad Zafrullah Khan: Yes, il., hus had this
ocmtrullt for more thau It yeur.
Mr. Lalchand .avalral: [s it. It fltet"t,hat these contrLLcts ILre being given only to those men who posses!> u('l'af.t.d water faetoOries and call carry on the Hhow:'
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zalrullah Khan: 1 presume they arc hdllg gi\,llll t.o ' o ' .~ who CRn render the necesslI.ry service, but I do not know whether it, is a conditien t,Jlllt the\, must be owners of lerated water fo(·tories. . .
GRANT OJ' LIOENCES FOR THE SALE OF CIOARETTES, PANS, ET<l., TO MUSLIM VENDORS ON THE NORTH WESTEBN RAILWAY.
1(110. *1Ir. Muhammad Anwar-ul-Azlm (on hE'hnlf of l\fr. M. Ottias-uddin): (a) Is it 0. fact thllt orders were issued by the Agent, North Western Railway for the grant of licenceB for the Bale of cigarettes, pan_, etc., to Muslim vp.ndor!; ut all important stations?
(b) Is it a fact that these ordArs hllve not been carried out by some of the divisions?
(c) If the reply to purls (Il.) nnd (b) lie in the affirmative, 1U"e Govern-ment prepared to consider the advisability of enforcing these orders with· .)Ut delay and remove the grievan('es of the Muslim public?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: (a) No.
(b) nnd ( ... ). Do not arise.
'PA \fPIU.l1If3 RlDGA.RDlNG THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY ADJIlNIII'l'BATIOl' •
.. 1011. *Kr. Xuhammad .&nwar-ul-Altm (nn behalf of Mr. M. Obial-Ilclrlin): (0) JA it, n fnct thnt two ),>amphl("t.s, I!tat.ing certain faC't-s regarding the Nnrth Vb!fottern Ra a~ Administ,n,tion werE' hrought to the notice of thn nRilwll.V Roam during tht' IRAt :-.·enr?
Qt1J!1BTIONB AND ANBWIIlRS.
(Il) If 80, will Government please state if the facta stated therein are eorrect?
(0) If no enquiry has 80 far been Dlade, are Government. now prepared to enquire into the matter to see if these facts are correct l'
The HOIlO1IIable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: (a) Government are ;UMble to trace the ret'tlipt of the two a ~t referred to in the question.
lb) Government have no informRtion. lC) Govenlmcnt are not· prepared to- muke any enquiry. ~ mattei's
;referred to in the pamphlets concern the detailed administration of the North Western Railway, entirely wit.hin t.he compeh'nce of the Agent to whom 8 copy of the qnestion hus bopn "Cllt for illformut.bn und s\lch action ;88 he may consider nece88ul'y.
ALLEGED CoRRUPTION AND BRIBERY PREVA.1LING IN CERTAIN SECTIONS 01' THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY HEADQUARTERS OI'l'ICE,
]012_ *Kr. Muhammad Anwar-ul-.Aslm (on behalf of Mr. M. Ghjl&lI-uddin l: (A) Has the attention of Government heen drawn to the articles published in the Weekly Union, Lahore, dated 8th August, 1985, 22nd AU!{ust, 1935 and 1st January, ]986, relnting to corruption and bribery prevailing in the Acme Confident,iA.I and 11eraonnf'! Rections of the Head-quarters Office, North Westenl RRilway, ~R o l'
(b) Are Government prepared to consider the advisability of enquiring into the state of affairs alleged to be prevailing in the said office?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: (n) Yes. (b) The Agent., North Western Railway, considered the alleglltions lind
-came to the conclusion t.hat no Rct.ion was culled for.
Po8'l' OJ' TI£IIl SUPBBINTBNDBNT ON SpaCIAL DUTY IN THE PEB80NNIIL BRANeR 01' TIIB NORl'H W.a:STBRN RA.ILWAY HEADQUARTEBH OI'l'ICB.
1013. "'Mr. Muhammad Auwar-ul-Allm (on hehalf of Mr. M. Ghiall-uddin): (Il) Will Government. pleaso state how long the post of an -additional Superintendent on special duty in the Personnel Branch of the Headquarters Office, North Western Railway, has been in existence?
(bl Will Government please state the duties which have from time to time been entnlsted to the Superintendpot on special duty and the work 110 f.r acccmplished by the inoumbents of the post?
(c) Will Government please state how long the post of the Superin-tendent on special duty is likely to continue l'
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah 1Dwl: (a) Since the 6th October, 1988.
(b) r would invite the Honourable Member's attention to the inform-atioll laid ron the table of this House on the 18th July, 19a4. in repJy to parts (e) and (f) of Mr. M. Maswood Ahmad's unstarred question No, 272 ."ked on the /lrd April, 19M. Government understand that since th"t reply WI18 given th(' snnw l)F,cedurc has been applied t() the remllining Di"isional tiupE'rintendents Oflic('S, the SU}l!'rintendent, ]dechllnicBl WOI'k-15hop Office 8Dd to ~ a Offil'cs on the Rawalpindi, Multan and
I&Ol8LATIVB ASSBMBLY. [9TII MARCH 1936.
Karachi Divisions aDd the Superintendent is now employed on an examin-ation of the I>rocedure in Sub-DivisIOnal Oftices with a view to securing uniformity in these offices nnd although a considerable amount of inform-ation has been collected, much still remains to be done. Hll has also ~ 'n detailed to cxumine existing routine establishment
procmlurc. in t.he larger subordinate offices with the same object and is at present working on the offices of the St.ation Superintendent and Loco-mc.tivc 'o t~ , 1.:.1 hor(' , lind IIft.er these will take the Train Examiner's office.
'j')u:rtl ~ l'Lill u lurg!' numbt'r of (!xtru Divisional Oftim'iI to be dOlle und when all this examination work hus he en completed, it is anticipated that it will be pOKllihle to sccllIre II much larger ~a of uniformity than exists ut prcsc'nt lind obviutc those cuses of differential treatment which arl' now coming to light. froUl t.ime to time.
ll!) No tlRtimutc cun lit· present "(' made of how long the post is likely to be continued.
DISABILITY PENSION TO MILITARY EMPLOYEES INVALIDED DUBINO TO· GREAT WAR.
10]4. *Bhal Parma JJ&Dd: (II) lIS it Ii fact that a ('iviJ subordinab who contracted disease on :Field Service during the Great W·ar of lIH4-18 and eventua\l.y retired from Government service on a pay of Rs. 200 per mellSIlID or more on account of the same diseabe is eligible to chl1-ability pension under chapter 38, Civil Service Ueguln.tionR, in accordance with Government reply to quest:on No. 592, dated 4th September, 1938?'
(b) Is it 11 faci that the ubove queiltiOll was raised again and again in the AlIsemhly, as per questions noted below, :lnd Government every time either confirmed their reply of 4th September, 193H or called for pUTti-culars of the caseil in order that action may be taken on the lines of their reply to question No. 592 of t.he ·1th September, 1983:
(i) queKt.ioll No ~ . r\utt'cl the :l7t.h November, 1933;
(ii) quc!lt.ion No. 1268, dated the lst December, 1988;
(iii) qucHt.iun No. lU, cllLt...o t·h(l nth }t'ebrulI.r.\" lIJ84;
(i\") qUtlMt.ion No. 32, dRtecl Hie 6th ~' . , 1984; and
(v) qUOIItion No. ~ , dnt·fld the 6th t~ , 1984?
«(:) ]s it u il'rt· that on account of continued l'9fusal and DOD-COlUpli-ance with tho Government views and admissions in tjle Assembly oy t! •• Controller of Military Pension., Lahore, the matter was again pointed:1y put in the R t' ~ , liS pel' qu(-'stion No, Slll of the 2nd March, 1934, wltb a view to a clear, concise and final decision being reached by the Govern-ment as to whether the viewpoint of the Controller, Military J'ensions or that of the Government was correct? .
(d) Is it II. fact that Government promised to c') again very cRmful!,. and thoroughl.'" into t.he point,s rnised in question No. 881 of the 2nd March, 19lJ4 ? (e) Is it ~ fact thut in the con&ideration of question No. S31 of 2nd
March, 1984, Government felt that an anomaly had arisen in the appli-cat.ion of th(' rulc!! and wrote to thAt ~ t t.o o ~ M~ of the Houso?
QllESTION8 AND ANSWERS. 2OlS1
(f) Lt it. a fr.r.ct that to clear up the anomaly, Government referred the· whule question to the Finance Department, Goverrun<!nt of Indi" , for a very clear, definite and flnal decision being reaehed on the subject?
(g) Id it COTJ'£"ct. that the point at issue was undE". consideration l1ud continued disCU.lioa for over fourteen month., fli •. , from "th September. 1988, the date of question No. 592, to 18th November. 1984, when Gov-£"rument arrived nt 1\ final . ~ o in l'rospect of question No. 881 of 2nd' March, 1984?
(h) Is it r:orrect thut in the tinul rfl,lly to quest.ion No. 331 of 2nd March, 1984, Government admitted wrong a88essment of disabHity cases for Jiselwes RDd ordered the reassessment and readjus!.l::ent of such l'ases?'
(i) Will Government be ple!ls£"d to store:
(i) the numbe)' of CRses lIfftlcted b} the finnl reply to question No. 881 of 2nd March, 1984;
(ii) the uumber ordered for reassessment and readjustment:
(iii) tlte I1l1mber reassessed and readjusted up to date; alld
(iv) the number still remaining for reassessment and readjustment., alnel when this is like!y to be completed?
lIrr. G. :a. P. TotteDham: With your permis8ioJl. Sir. I propose to I1ns\\,(')" questions Nos. 10]4 and 101" together.
'fht; '~ t t on . ~ being exurnilled Hud It I'eply will bn luid on Hw table in dUEl ccursc.
DISABILITY PENIUON TO MU,lTARY KMPJ.onlXS INVAUDBD DUBnUl THB
GREAT WAR.
11015. *Bhal Parma Band: (/I) Will Government please state whether' their replies to the following questions in the Assembly still stand as rel!"ards civil officers alld RubordinnteR who ('ontrl1cted disell'!lcs on Field Service in 1914-18 and eventually retired on a pay of Rs. 200 pl!r m8nsem and over in 192R-HO on account of t.hl' slime disen.llf's:
(i) question No. 592-A. dated the 4th September. 1988:
(ii) qUl!stion No. 592-H. dated the 4th September, 1988;
(iii) question N"o. 1182-A. duted the 27th November. ]fiSH; lind
(iv) question No. 331 of the 2nd Mal"ch. 1984?
(b) 1ft Government are not DOW prepared to sot on their replies to ihe! four questions referred to above in part (a) will they be pleased to give a fresh and complete reply to (o8ch of the questions referred to? (c) In case of any alteration" being made in the previous replies, will
Government be pleased to specify the alteratioIlIl made and the dute of such alterations?
(d) Is it a fact that paragraph 741-A, Civil Service Regulations. atands a8 it Willi on lHth Novl'mbt'f. 1984. the dattl of flnal ~ to qnesti.:;o No. 3;')1 of 2nd March. 1984? If not. will Government be pleased to state when the said par8fJl'lWh was modified and what is its present modified and correct wording'"
----------tFor answl!r 10 ~ ' P~t n .• or a ~ ' 10 Cjul'lItiolJ No. 1014.
2)52 [9T1I MARCU 1986.
(e) Is it a fact that according to paragraph 788, Civil Service Regula-tions, an officer or subordinate is eligible to disability pension in addition to such ordinary oivil pension as he may be eligible to under the Civil ·Service Regulations?
(f) Is it a fact that an officer or subordinate getting onJy thA ordinary '~ ' ~n on ,,:nder. the. Civil Service R at o~ is also eligible for the'
-disabIhty penSion, If dlSabled on account of diseases contraoted during the Great War 1914-1918 on Field Servioe?'"
(g) I. it a fact that in the case of thoae retiring on a pay of Rs. 200 per menaem and over, on account of the diseases contracted on Field :Servioc, relative ranks are to be determined on the basis of penn anent pay, ·drawn on the date of final retirement from the servioe, in accordance with the Government's final reply to question No. 331 of 2nd March, 1934?
(h) Are Govemment now prepared to act according to their replies now .given to the above questions?
CONTRACT FOR THE CONI!TRU(JTION 0)0' THE HOWRAH BRIDGE.
1016. *JIr. Abdul Katin OhaudhU1'J: (a) Has the at.tention of Govern-ment boen drllwn to t,he npw!! IIppenring in the National Call, datcq
'Thursdn,v, I-'ebnIRr.,. 6, L93fi, from t~ Cnlruttn correspondent OIl page 1 -under the heading .. Howrah Bridge Contract for British Finn"?
(b) Is it a fact that the Chainnan of the Bridge Commissioners com· municated to the members that the contract should be offered to a Briti&h firm in preference to the .. Indian Combine"?
(0) Will' Government. please state whether the Chairman of the Bridge 'Commissioners consulted the Government of India, or the Government of Bengal, before communieat.ing hi!! suggestion in this matter?
(d) If the Government of India were not cOll8ulted, do they propose to take stepS' to offer IIppropriate advice to the authorities concerned 'before any final decision is rl'achpd, in ordor to 8afeguard the interests ·of India'!
(0) Are GovernmEnt awure t.lmt therE' is a strong feeling in India against t.he oontract, being offered t{) II non-Indian firm?
(f) Will (}ovcrnment hI' pleased to KLu.te what steps they prop?8f1 to take to insure thAt, Indian interest!'! IIrl' ndl'quatf'ly safeguarded In the matter? .
The Honourable Sir Kullammad Za!rUll&h Khan: Attention fs invited to th!' rpply il1St givE'n tn the quest,ion RBked by t.he Honourable Mr. 'ChC'ttilll' .
EXPORTS AND IMPORTS OJ' INDIAN GOODS ANJ) GOLD EXPORTED !'BOil INDIA.
1017. *JIr. S. Sa\yamurtl (on behalf of Seth Govind DRS): Will Govern-ment. be pleased tG state:
(a) what, is the total export of gold from India. till today, or as lat.e RlI possibl(', I!inl'e England abandoned the gold stand-Brd:
QUESTIONS AND ANSWBRS,
(b) what is the total qURntity of gold exported out of India during the previous seven yeK1'8;
(c) what is the present gold reserve in this cOuntry; (d) what is the average amount of India's foreign obligations; (e) what is the total import of Empire goods into India a8 apart
from the United Kingdom, during 1988-84 and 1984-86. (value in crores of rupees);
(f) what are the total imports from non-Empire countries into-India during these two years (value in crores of rupee!!);
(g) what arc the totul exportli f"olll India to non-Empire countries-during the two years, 1933-84 and 1984-85 (value in crores of rupees);
(h) what is the value in m'ore!! of rupees of the total export of' Ind;a's goods during the yeaTS 1988-84 and 1984-86 to the· United Kingdom Itnd the British Empire; and
(i) whether the export!! of thl1 United Kingdom to the Empire· countries have illcrellsed by about £20 millions per annum' in the two years following the Ottawa agreement?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah De: (8) About RII, 271' ororcp lip to 1st February, 1986,
(b) 'l'11c attention of the Honournble Member is invited to the Annual' Statpments of the Sea-horne Trade of British Indiu, for 1982-88 and 1988-84, Volume I, nnd the monthly Hen-bomE' Trfld(, At'C'ounts for Mnrch 19M .. '!opies of which are in the Librar.,· of the I.egiF1IAhlrC',
(t') No informat:on iF; nvai1n.blt" (d) The at,tention of the HOlloU!'ublt· ~ is invited to the rl'pl,\'
given ~' the Honourable the }<'jIllHlce :\fembet' on the 2nd September, 1m:.), t,., Mr, AvinashiiingRm tt '~ sturred question No, 8.
(e) to (h), The Honourable Member iR ,'eferred tn Tahle A in Chalner rv of the Review of the Trade of irlCliu in 1934-85, a ~ of which ill also, in thl3 Librar.v,
(i) I would refer the Honourahle Member to the Annual Statements of the Trade of the United KhlJdoT'1 with foreign countries and British coun-tries, and the Month)" Ac('r.unts relnt.ing to the 'rrade nod Navi,2'ution of the Uilited ~o for Decemher. 19M, and 1985, copies of which are nVllilalJle in the Library,
Mr. S. Batyamurt1: Have Govenlmcnt considered the question that today th'3 bRlance of trade, favourable to India, iR R ~ . if not wholly. being kept IIp b:v the export of gold, and have they considered an~ sugges-tions or methods by which the balllnce of trllde mR,\' he kept up, independ-~nt of the export of gold?
The Boaourab1e Sir Kub..,mad Z&InIllah lD1&D: The Ilnswer to th&-fil'R\; part of the question iR. ves, Wit,h reqnrd tn t,hA Recond 'PArt. (lnvPrll-ment 11J'f' continuously watchinc.t the s:tustion aDd dnin!!' what they can to. '!M011t'tt!!e R favourable balance of tl'ade in commodit;cs, ..
IUTII .\1 AHCII watl.
Mr. S. 8&tyamurtl: May I know jf the Honourable Member will be .good (!Dongh t,o mention the main categories of the steps which Government. hil",l tnl(Cn in the IRst six months, in order to encourage the export of '~o o t, other than gold, to keep up the unlanee of trude?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zatrullah Dan: That would require a vel',V dcil);)ed tat n~ to be compiled Bod read out, If the Honourable M n', ~ deRireR II Rtutement of t,hnt kind lind puts down 11 question, I shall 'Jlllleuvour t,o compile one.
Mr. M. Ananthaaayanam Ayyangar: ~ GOVt,rlllllcul aware that ·varic.HI'. ()oUhtrics IHlvc iIIIJ>OIllld l'{·"t.rictiolls 011 the free export of gold 8S ·u ('olOlIloclit,v'!
The Bonourable Sir Muhammad Z&frullah Khan: Yes, some haVt·.
JIr. K, ADanthaaayanam Ayyangar: If so, why do the Government of . Inrlia ulIow fllrthpr t.'xport of gold? Do the.' propoRP to impose any ~Rt.
t,ions?
The Honourable Sir Kuhammad Zafrullah Xhan: The Oovernlllenl. of 'Indin do not conlPTIIl'lHtI· plncing nny reFitrictioIlS.
lilt. K. Ananthalayanam Ayya.ngar: Why do no\. they think of imposing 'rllstridiollH on tile f'X'jJort. of gold OR ot,her countries are trying to do?
The 1I0110Urabie Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: It is not ILlways Ifdll!ihle 1.0 do whM ot,her count·rieR HI'(' d·oing.
Kr. M:, AnanthalJaya.nam Ayyangar: lR it in t.lH' in Lerestf; of India to '"elld out II 11 this gold?
Xr. President ('I'ht, HOllo\lrlLblt' HiI' Ahdllr Rahim): Next question,
1018. ·Jir. Lalchand Navalrai: (n) W:th rl'fl'rence to a contrihution from a FlpeciAI correFiTlondent, of the T>n;/'J (;allJfJttc. Sind. dated SlAt Januarv, 1986, ~a n 'Mohanjo-Daro' nntitluitics, will Government be pleased to stAt.e if thpv hnve Rnv il"t·pnt3nn t.n "ivp Rnv nl"t.jnllities to the Bombav 'Government on the separation of S!nd? If so, why? •
(b) II it a fact; that the Bombay Government have made a claim for them? If so. for what, reMonFl, nnd what reply have Government given to them?
(e) Are Government aware that the people of Sind are entirely against pllrting with Rny ot the ontiquitips Bnd desire the Museum Bt Mohanjo-Daro, which is being visited by persons from India and abroad. to contain n 11 the finds?
(d) Are Government aware that on previous occasions when the ques-tion of ('it,her t,he rpmovRI or diRtrihution of the finds hRS RriRen in this HOllse, Oovemment's view has been reassuring and against the removal ,,,f t.he finds?
.(e) Do Government continue to hold that opinion? If not, why pot?
Qt"KSTIONS AND ANSWERS.
Sir 0.111& Sb&DkU 8&lpaI: (8) Yes, a select,ion from Buch of the dupli-""Jate antiquities 8S are surplus to the requirements of the local museum at Mohenjo-Daro. Government are of the opinIOn thltt. the exhibition of 8uob <iuplic!lte aut;quities in tlw museum at Bombay wiIJ stimulate the interest o~ persons from nhrond or from other n ~ of Indin. who have no t"imfl or -opportunity to visit Mohenjo.Daro.
(b) Xu. The dependent parts do not arise.
(c) 'fbe MuseulJ1 at Mohenjo-Dar . ., will continue to hOUSG a oo t~
~ filII." represtlnt.l1tive colltlction of all classes of antiquities found at Mohenjo-Daro.
(d) and (e). Government have in no wn.;y ulterttd their previous attitude.
Mr. LaIchand Havalrai: May I know from the Honourable Member if it is a fllct thnt, armnments which lire not duplicates or trio;:licates wiu not 'he removed?
III Girla Shankar Balpal: Whatever is not in existence in duplicates ,or triplicates will not he removed from Mohenjo-Daro.
CONTRACT FOR lNsIDE Dol''\' VARNISH ltV THE EAST INDIAN RAn.WAY.
1019. *Pandit R'l1aka.ntha Du: (11) Is it II fnd th'lt t.hf' "EnRt Indian H",iiwuv nuthoriti(>, plul'erl the requisition No. I. B. . ~ ~ . o t. ,
,dated 7th November, 1980, for varnish hard drying inside agmnst Indian 'Stores Department Contract No. H.-6040/10, dated 5th March, ~ , with Messrs. Jenson and Nicholson?
(I.) Is it,ll fn('i; that t.lw IWtullI SI1PT.lv wns found unRotiRfnl·torv and 110-fluitAhle for use as an inside body vRrnish and was rejected bf'ing R rosin varnish whose appearunce was turbid and gave brittle filrn, eitlf, Govern-ment Test House Test Result No. 2629·0 of 10th December, 1980?
(c) Will Govcrnmt'nt he pleased to IRv a COPy (}f .~ o . Jenson and Nicholson's reply, dated 8th ,January, 1931. to the Calcutta Controller of Inspection's lett.er No. HH.-45J24, dated 5th January, 1981, together w:th ·n copv of East IndiAn HailwAY Controller of t~ ' let.ter of 20th Novem· 'ber, 1930, to Messrs. Jenson and Nicholson?
~ Is it 1\ tllet thAt the East Indinn Railway :lUthoritit·g on the 20th November, 1980 made Messrs. Jenson and Nicholson to return the original 'r"qnisit-ion or stortlK order for correction and chAnge the sturf.' order from the qll"Jit,\' supplied h." Messrs .• JensOn and Nicholson in n(l(lordance w;th the Tnrlillll SrA,res D{,flartment, Rate ContrAct No. H.·r(l40/10, dated 5tb March, 1980, to a special hard drying varnish for inside use?'
(I'll lFi it n f'wt thut on thp reonellt of 1\1'1.",,<1'"8 •• JellRon und lIlichol80D the Certificate No. 2629-0 of 19th December 1980, was resciriddd 1 If 80, -why?
(f) Tf the nnswer to the first, nortion of pnrt. (e) hf' in th£' nffirmntivc, will Government be pleaeed to tat~ whether the action wu "ItTa "i, .. ., If 80, who was responaiblA for this. action .,
The Honourable Sir KulwaJUd ZafruUah KbaD: (8) Yes. (b) The vamiRh ordererl ""8 reonirt>d to conform 10 a ,,"ceinl HSIDPIf'
&pnrovl'd ~' thl' F,nst T ndion JfnilWRV. Thron"h a mislInill'rst.anding th .. Indian Stores DCpllrtment TnRpectorat{' tpRt.ed thiR vnmiRh ngainRt. A"
to
LEGISLATIVE ASSBMBLY. [9TH MARCH 1986.
Indian Stores Department standard sample and as the varnish offered for lupply did not confonn to this Indian Stores Department standard sample, it WfoS rejected. When the East Indian Railway pointed out thllL the varnish ordered was required to compl.v with an East IndiaD Railway sample whieh had heen found satisfactory, it was re-tested ay the Indian Stores Department and found to conform to t,his F.JQst Indian Railway sample, ulld wall, thcreiore, ac('epted.
(0) Government are not prepared to lay the correspondence on the· table.
(d) The original store order was corrected only in respect to rate per-gallon and unit of supply.
(e) No.
(f) Does not urise.
RATES POR THE CARRIAGE 0)1' Am MAILS FROM KAlI.ACHl TO LABoBlii.
IO!O. *:Mr. X. Auanthuayanam AJ'Yllllar: (a) II it a fact that the-Indian National Airways Co. has asked for a subsidy of a lakh and twenty thClus8nd rupoo'5 in ncldition to t,he rat,e ugreed upon at the ilerinning of ,th" (\'mt"llct. Iur clllTyin:: air mnils from Karachi to Lahore 'J
(b) Is it not a fact that at the time of the original contl'aet with the· Indian ~at n Airways, no tenders were invited and the rates demandecf by the Company WE're accepted?
(c) Are Government aware that the Himalayan .\irways Co. of Delhi is offering to carry mails for only Rs. 60,000 in addition to the rat. ~ at so much JW-r Found?
(d) What do Government propose to do in the Rtt ~
(el Are Govomment prepared to can for tenders nnd nucept the lowelt u,nill!l'?
'!he Honourable Sir I'rADk Boyce: (a) 1naian National Airwa)s .. Limited, have asked for finanCial Bssistance, Bnd it is proposed to grant them Rs. 1.12.000 for one year to enable them to maintain certain ser-,riceR required b:v Government. I place on the table a copy of the Memo-randum suhmitt,ed to the Eltanding Finance Committee fully explaining the proposal.
(b) The reply to the first part is in the affirmative, and to the second' part in tho negativr.
(0) and (d). 'Ph., ~ -\irways Company has submitted several' proposals whieh Government have not found themselves in a position to' accept.
(e) As ~ ' t,hf' first part. no occasion haR arisen to call for tenden for tho Karachi·LuhoTl' Rcrvicl' OR the t n~ contract with Indian Nut-iono' AirwRYR ill still current. 'Government will consider the desir-Ilhilit,v or otherWiMe of clllling for tenders should the' occasion arise. As rl'lrll.rds the second part. Govern merit, could not in any CBse give aD undertll.king toO . ~~ ' t, t,h" 10weRt tender irrespective of other considerR-t,ionl!.
QUX8TlO1l8 AND AN,SWBBS.
CIVIL AVIATION.
GoV.aJIIOINT or INDIA.
DBPARTMBNT OF INDUSTRIES AND LABOUR.
(ClVo.. AVIATION).
No. T.-ll).
bated NeVi Delli, tAl IOtA JQflV4f7l, I"'.
M'liIiORANDUIl TO 'rIB 8TANDDIG PrHlNCII COIIIII'ftU.
~ ' ' :-1'iflQflcial A."i,tane" to lrwlian NatiOllal A.irwoy •.
Demand. No. ~. n an Poste add Telegraph. Department .r.nd No. 63-AviatiOll.
1. Conci.e ,t, t~ .nt 01 tile fJro'JlO'ol ami a~ ' tlere/or. (I) 1'ormation and eom"(.8ition 01 the Company.·-Indian National Airway.,
Limited, wa. incorporated ir. May 1933 with the main ob.iect of operatinp; internal air aervicee in India. Of the authori.eel capital of R •. 30 . ~, RI. 11'6 lalcM have b8ID lub.cribed by 970 shareholder.. Of the .. Bhareholder. 886 (or 91 per cent.) are Indian. whOle holdinp;s amount to R.. 10'10 lalcllJl or f!1 per cent. of the capital lublcribeel. Of the ninl!' Directora of the Company flv!' are Jndians. The Company employ a stall of 91 ptlrlOnl of whom 71 are IndianB. They provide facUiti.. for the trainiq of Indian, both BI commercial pilot. and BI ground engineere.
(2) .A.cti"if.i.8 of "I.e Oom1K'ny.-Jn December, ]933, the Company eatabli.h.d • daily air eervice betwf!en Calcutta and Dacca and a weekly air ... vice bet.wHD CalCutta aDd Rangoon. Early in 1934 they opened a Flying School at Rangoon, and in December, 1934, began a weekl:v B .. vice between Karachi and Lahore, to connect with the Crovdon·Karachi S",'vice. They hold a ten year r.ontraM. from Government for ~ carriage of mail on the Kar8chl-Lahore route.
In addition to the operation of regular Hrvices, the Company maintain centr. for. charter work at Delhi, Calcutta.. and Ra~n. and hold a contract from Government for the maintenance and operation of Hi. Excellency the Viceroy'. al!roplane and tal' Government. of India Avro X.
(3) EzplonutiOfl of tAe Company', diflicultit •. -The Ca.lcuttB-Daooa service received na at~ support from the public and wa. di8(',ontinued from the 15th June, 1935.
The GalcuMa-Ranltoon Service showed .... promi.. of BUCCln and "'BI duplicated early in 1935. But the Company found it JmpOlllible to face the heavy recurrent 10_ required to eatabli.h thl! service on a pa;vihg ba.is, and diecontinued it from the 9th August. 1935. The Karachi-Lahore 8.,..08 mallt, under the mail contract. be operated with the BBDle frequency a. the Cl'01don-Xarachi Service, and the Company were obliJed to duplicate it. exactly onA montll after ita inaaguration. The averap load eai'ried on each service wal con.iderably reduced. and the reVllDlle derived from the carriage of maila wae insufficient to cover the iilcreued OJIC'ratlnR _ta; Chartt'r op81'ation. bave not proved remunerative. and the Company have repI'888IltecJ that. they are unable to maintain their organilBtion without Government alit_nee.
(4) RfltUOfIII lor gmtlt of QI,iIItrmc:e.-The Govitmaumt of India haVCl examinl!d th" Gom"any'. repreaentation, and arl! IBti.lied, that it is lIubltantially correct. They ant not preparlll:! .peciaUy to lIubaidi.. the Rangoon FlyinR School or general charier o . a~ on., but t.IIey conBider that. the immediate failure of tho Company milfbt affect very seriously the fut.ure development of air tranlport in India. In partit-uIAr. no" that greatly Increased frequenciel both on the Tram·Judia route and on the tw,' feeder routel! Are heinlt diacueeed the clORQ!'e of one of theee route. and the dilCharge of a highly qualified and efficient IItaf'I befo!'e thelle queetions are finally Jl8U.lecl would he mo.t embarrueiDg. An orpnilBtion BUcll a. that maintainf'rf by the eompany cannot be built up at short notice. IUId, emergency arrangement .. with a new ~ might prove both un .. t. ~ and expen_"..
15) lI_ur, 01 flllllMttJne, to ~ grantetl.-The Government of In4ia eonaid4ll' that it. will be .uftlcient. to pDt the Company ~ J.936-a7 -" ....... ee .. i • ........, to _ble them to opera&e tJ. Karachi,LahOre s.r.io8, Uld to maiat.in th8
•
9058 LBGISLATIVB ASSBMBI.Y . [9TH MARCH 1936.
. "upervilOry organization required for future development. The coat of the organiza-tion will be Re. 2'14 lakA, u shown in the three statemente appended. Against Uti. the Company will receive approximately RI. 70,000 under their mail ont a ~, and HI. 31,800 under their contract for the .maintenance and operation of Ute two Govemment machines, leaving an uncovered balance of Re. 1,U,000 roundly. It iJl propoled l.hat the Company ahould undertake to maintain the organization up to the .tandard indicated in the statements and to fulfil their obligations under the two contracts. and t a~ in retuY'n Governmbnt should pay them a grant not ezceeding HI. 1,111,000. Thill grant will be paid quarterly In arrears, by inatalmente of RI. 28,000 each, and if the mail paymllnts for 1936·37 exceed Re. '10,000 the amount of the lutqnarterlv inlltalment will be reduced accordingly. The arrangement. will remain in force for 1&·37 only'; at the elld of that year t.he position will be reoooaidered.
2. I, tAe FtIpOIIIIl in ·,·e,pect 0/ a new ,er",;ce! Y M. 3. HfI' tle ,. .~a or "ny 7IMt 0/ it be.n con,idt,,,,1
rtJeo.nr.e Committe,,! If 80, witl wlat re8ult! No. alrrad!l' b,Y tltr Sf.nndift,
4. I'inanr.ial ellect 0.1 tile propo.al-
(a) Total actual expenditure involved-
(il l'ion-reourrent-1938·37 (ii) 'Recurrent . . . . . .
of tbe
Re. 1,12.000 Nil
Nil .But the (b) R ~ and "",overi_antioipated in respeot
prOposal total may be ,lightly reduoed by a growth in the volume of mails.
Ii. I. tA.e p"opoaal finul and complete in it,ell or will it involve /"rtAe., upendi. titre in . ~ nt year,! If /10, wAat i, the ezt"nt tmd nat""e '"of ,ub,equent commit-_fl"? Th. proposal is final and complete in iteelf. 6 .... till., ezpenditure already been incurred in re/lpect of ,,,,, propoAal if! antil'ipa-.... of tie ~ ot a of tAe Standing Finance o ~t If /10, IWUJ much and tor ... r ....... Nd)o... .,. /n :u,l2t malUler U it propo,erl to meet the tzpenditure! By t.he proviiion of
Be. 111.000 under Demand No. 23 Indian Poeta and Telegrapha Department and of Be. 1,00.000 under Demand No. 63, Aviation. for the year ]936.37.
8. Supplementary information,i! ang, required to eluridate t"t prop08al !uTtlrtr! Nil.
E. M. JENKINS.
Offg. loint Secretary to thr G01·'. 0/ India.
~ 1.
Ad",.je'ralitl8 Hzp.,..".
Balan •• Wagea and OlBoe Expenditure. Per meueem. Per annum. RI. Re.
I. StatietiOl t911 I. AOOOllnte 380 I. Typiete • . . . . . . . • 100 ,. G. II. Department • • • • • • • • • 1.480 I. lIaoaging Agent, Feel (CbarIJee waived ., a BpeOIaI oon-
O8IIion) . Nil
8. Direct.ora F_ and ElI:pen_ .,. Audit Fee . 8. Technical Advice 9. Postage and Te18IrBmi 10. Telephonel • : . Il. Print.ing and B.ti.onery lZ. Oenorl\\ Charges. . • II. Inspeotion and TlavelliDg 16 FUl'nitlue W_r aDcI Tear
Total t.SSI !8.ote 2.6Oft
'110 ,.ne UIOO 2.000 1.000. 1.000 '.000 400
4U90
QllE8TION8 AND AN8WBRB.
BlaleMeftI II.
D.aiB-..
Salaries. Wages and AllowanOM.
1. Fint Pilot . :2. 8eoond Pilot -3. Firat GroundfFligbt Engineer •• 8eoond Ground/Flight Engineer •. Third Grou,ndfFlight Engineer II. FolU'th Ground/F1ight Engineer 7. WUele. Operator 8. Trainee Ground Engineen 9. Workahop Banda
10. Store Keeper 11. 1 Stores Clerk n. Record Clerk .18. huluranc_Pilotll , •• Home leav_Pilot!! 15. huluranoe Ground Engineen III. Home leave Ground Engineen 17. Ov_ Allowance-Pilot. . 18. Ovel'llea8 Allowance-Ground Engineer!!
Total
SlalemenlII1.
Lalor. BG6e.
8II0TION I. Saleri.., WagtlII and AUowanon.
I. Fint Pilot . 2. Second Pilot 1. lilt Ground Engineer •• lhad Ground Engineer I. Trainee Ground Engineer I. Worbbop Han9-Three ,. Store Keeper 8. Stores Clerk 9. IDauranoe Pilot.
10. IDauranoe GI'OUDd Bngi.D_ 11. Home Leave Pilot. and Eqineen . 12. Belief Pilot for Looa1leave . II. O. S. Pay Pilot!! • I •. O. S. Pay Ground Enginee .... .1. OlIlee Staff . •
, .
Total
Per menllllll. Per aunum.
lb. lb. 850 860 760 160 .00
Two ..0 .10
Three 100 Four 80
100 85 75
180 110 130
70 100 1150
11.300 76,'"
PermeDl8m. Per anDlUft.
Ba. a.. 860 UO 'II)
III II 110 eo 10
ItO 15 10
JOG lOG 100
. . 110 .,taO .1.'.
st
J&GJ8LATIVB ASSEMBLY.
SJIlO'l'ION II.
I. CrewII ExpellHS a_y from Baae t. Landing Chargee • . . 3. Hanprage . • . . 4. Pubfieit.Y. . . . I. Uniform.. . . 8. Bent.a, Rat.e. and Tax" 7. Aooident. ex_. . . . 8· Carriage of St.orel . . . 9. Aanual Certitioat.e ~ Airwort.hine.
10. lDIurance Fleet and propert.y . 11. ObaolelCCnoe engines and airframeq
SECTION III.
Enginuring Running OOlltll.
Two Percival Gulla.
[9Tu MAReK 1986".
Tot·al •
Per anDU ~. Ra.
4,800' . 41SO Nil
i,I00 200·
1,000· 2,400' 1.200 1,800 2.800 8.390
211.640
1.500 Hours Flying.
Per Hour. Total Coat. Per anDUlm Ra. Rs. Ra.
Petrol and Oil Jrlaint.enanoe
11.00 5.211
16.25 24.400
GRAND TOTAl.
24 • .00 88.700
1Ir ••• hanthua)'anam A11anpr: Now that an application has been made by Indian Nationa.l Airways for a. subsidy of Rs. 1.12,000 in addition to the amount fixed under the terms of the original contract, will Govern-ment consider the question of terminating the cont.rRct Rnd cRlling for tenders for a fresh contract?
The Honourable Sir ~ . Boyce: No. Sir. '\(
Ill .•. ~t a 'ana A)')'angar: Why not?
'1'he Honourable Sir :hank BO)'ce: The reRsons have ttlready beeD fully explained in this House.
Mr. S. Sat)'&munl: Is it because Britishers Rre interested in this firm. and Government want t() encourage them?
Mr. Prellden\ (The Honourahle Sir Abdur Rahim): That is 8 ma.tter of opinion.
1Ir .•• Ananthua)'aDam A11lD1ar: WRS Dot a grant of RII. 2 lakhs made toO t.he TrRDs.Continentlll Airways. Limited. for carrying mails 8Croaa. India? -
'rile Honouab1e SIr I'rank BO)'ce: I have already explained, in reply to previoull questloDs in this House, the exaof; position in 1'8g&rd to Trans-Continent.al Airways, J.jimitof!d.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWB&S.
'JIr. ,PresideD' (The. Honourable Sir ~~ ~ Ra ~ Next question
HnlALA>YA'N AmwAYS eoMPANY AND TJIB INDIAN NATIONAL AIBWAY8.
1021. "'Mr. ]I. AnaI1thUaJ'1Ul1m An.,ar:'(a) Are GO'gernment aware :thlltthe Himala.yan Airways Company is a purely Indian Company with Indian capital aad Indian management, and that the Indian N stional Air. 'Ways ill mannec1 Dlotltly by Europeans? :
(b) Are .(}lIvernm,mt prepared to encourage the purely Indian Company?
The Honoarabl. Sir I'r&Dk Boyce: (aI) The answer to the tirst part is .in the affirmative. The aIUlwer to the second part is in the negative; Govt'rnment are informed that of & IJtaft' oi 91 persons employod by Indian National Airways, 71 are Indiana.
(b) If the Honourable Member is referring to nan ~ a B8sistancd to ·the Himalayan Airways, the answer is in the negative. Technical advice and assistance will always be available to them.
1Ir. ]I. AllaD\huayanam An'IDIU: Are not all the 71 Indians sm· ployed all C'hapr4lliH, m(lf'ltiH. ('oolies Ilnd otherN of inferior Tank?
The Honourable SIr Prank Boyce: No, Sir.
JIr. M. AD&nthalaJ'&IWll An'IDIU: Is there a single Indian Ofticer ·of aDy rank employed.?
The Honourable Sir !'rank Boyce: I should require Dotice of that que.-'tioD. I am prepared to oota'in information 8S to ~ exact position which these 71 IndiaDs occupy.
(Mr. M. AnaDthasayanam AyyaDgar stood up to ask anothtlT supple-mentary question.)
Mr. 1'r8I1d.' (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The Honourable Member can wait till further informatioD ie IWailable.
Mr. S. Savam1Uil: What is the total salary of these 71 Indians, aDd whtl,t is the total salal)' of the non·Indiall employees of the CompRDY?
The Bonoaratile SIr !'rank Boyce: I should require notice of that quee-. 'ion.
Mr. S. SaVamurti: Do or do not these 71 include what art" called menials; if they do, how maDY are menials?
'l'II,e BoIlourable Sir I'r&Dk Boyoe: J ~o require notice of that too.
RATES OJ'I'BRED BY THE HUIlALAYAN AIRWAYS C',oJ(PANY I'OR THE OABBIAGB 01' AlB KAU.8 ..
1022. *1[1' ••• ADaDtbMajaDam A"apr: (8) Ate GO\,M'DmeDt &itare \bat tbe Hirnnls;,lln Airways". '0.8 t ' ~ a ,'> LabaN from Delbi :at very ch(>Rf) rates, tIO as to make the eonveyanoe t'~ of mail froM Karocbi to Lahore via Delhi oheaper than the charges for direct oon an~
frau: Kvaohi to .a t ~ "..' , .. ... M
LBGISLATIVB' ASSBIIBLY. [9TH MAROH 1986 •.
(b) Are Government aware that the Himalayan. AiNuy, en. undertak .. til clUT)' mails to Lahor<> and deliver there only a coupl<: cf hours later than the present time by the direct route?
The Honourable Sir J'rank 1Ioyce: (a) No. ' ~ Company offered to· catty mail from Delhi to Lahore at Re. 8 per lb.-the rate paid 10 Indian National Airways Limited for carriage from Kamchi to Lahore. 'I'heir offer does not cover carriage from Karachi to Delhi for which roughly another Us. 3 per lb. must be allowed.
(b) No. The Company suggested that they could deliver mail viI) Delhi about three hours later than the present time of delivery.
Mr ••• Anuthuayanam ","UIU: Is the total amount ,of the fur-ther gn;.nt ut the rute of Hs. 3 pt'r pound from Delhi to Lahore len thaln the proposed subsidy of Rs. 1,12,000?
The Bonourable Sir I'rank 1Ioyce: Yes, but it would not include pay-ment. for other RCT\·ieeR ~ '. Indilln Nat.ionsl Airways Rre now render-ing.
Mr ••. AnaDthalayanam A"Ular: What are the other services which Indian Nationwl Airways are rendering for which payment is made?
'l'he Honourable Sir !'rank 1Ioyce: The maintenance of two Govern-ment reroplanes.
Mr. _. AnaDthaaayanam A"angar: What is the lUllount spent on the Government reroplanes?
'l'b.e Honourable Sir I'raDk 1Ioyce: T should require notice of that. ques-tion.
Mr. S. Satyamurtl: What is the value of these other services?
Mr. Prealdent (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): That is a matter of opinion.
Mr. S. Saty&IIUIIU: No, Sir. I am asking for the value of the services. I"t'ndered in rupees, anna!!, and pies.
'!'he ,HODourable Sir !'rank 1IOJce: I ha'Ve already replied that J should' require notice of that question.
Prof. 11. G. :aaqa: When was this subsidy of Rs. 1,12,000 given?
ne HOIloarable Sir I'raDk 1IoyO'l: It has not yet been given.
Prof. 11. G. :aaqa: Do Government propose to give it?
fte JIoIaoanb1e Sir I'rbk 1Io,oe: I would refer my Honourable frienel' ~ a number of lupplemenW, queltionl which weI9 answered in thi&-Kouaa on the 24th ~ a , 1986, on that very point .
•• PNIld.t (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): Next questiou.
QUJii6TJON8 ANI' AN8WBRfI •
. 1023. *Mr. T. S. Avln.ebllfnpm OheWar: Will Government atate:-(8) whether there is anv propo161 to give a subsidy of eleven lakhs to
the Indian National Airways to fulfil their Karachi-Lahore air mail contraots;
(b) whether it is true that the Company was unable to fulfil t ~ Calcutta-DaccR and CalcuttB-RBngoon air mail services, pre-viously given to them;
(e) tht: object of giving subsidies now; and (d) whether any tenders hav!;! heen called for; if not, why not?
The Honourable Sir I'rank Noyce: (a) and (cl. The Honourable Member is referred to the reply just given by me to questlion No. 1020 by Mr. M. Ananthasilyanilm Ayyangllr.
(b) No contract was entered into with Indian Nutional Airways, Limited, for the carriage of mails on the Calcutta-Dacca' and the Calcutta-Rangoon s('rvices. These services were established for pasBenger and freight traffic and were u'tilised for the despatch of mails so long as they ont n ~ to operate.
(d) The reply to the first part is in the negative. No tenders haft been called for as the contract for the conveyance of mails between Karachi and Lahore by Indian Nationa{ Airways is still current.
Ill .•. AnanUluaYaDam AnaDpI': Are Government aware that In-dian Nationa.i Airways suffered a lOBS in the first year and have declared a loss of nearly lliI. 8 lakhs in the IIccond year? If so, they may not be able to render these services.
The Honourable Sir I'rank Boyce: Government have satisfied them-selves that if the financial assistance, which is proposed to give to Indian Nationa.i Airways, is given. they will be able to render theBe services com-petently and efficiently.
1Ir. K, AnanthUayanam AyyIBpl': Why did the two other services, the Calcutta-Dacca and the Calcutta-Bangoon services. break down?
TILe Honourable Sir I'rank Boyce: I am sorry. Sir, that a reply to sup-plementary questions does not give me an opportunity of enlarging on the question of the reasons why the Calcutta-Dacca service was terminated. Thnt service was started with every hope that it, would be very largely used, but it was not very largely used. Very few passengers a.'nd a very small quantity of mails were transported between the two most import-ant cities of Bengal. For that reason, the service bad to be closed down.
Mr. T. S. AvtnyM!tnpm Ohewar: Are Government aware that .-moat the whole of the apital of this Company has been n~ away?
'I'M JIaIIo1IrabIe SIr I'nU .OJOI: No, Sir. I do not tbiuk that ia quite correct.
LEGISLATIVE ~ B B . [9TH MARoa 1986.
Mr ••• AlWLthII&1Ul11D An...,: Are Government aware that Re. 6 lakhs out of the Rs. lliakhs capital of this Company have already been spent out? •
fte BODoar&ble Sir !'rank Boyce: Apparently, even if my Honourable friend has not made a closer study of the beJlance sheet of Indian National Airways than I have, he evidently remembers more than ,I do.
Mr ••• AlWLthUa)'&I1&Dl .A),),lDIar: In what respect is the Compan7 national a'lld in what respect Indian?
Kr. Presldent (The Honourahle Sir Ahdur Rahim): Ord{'r. order; ned question.
AIR MAIL SERVICE BETWEEN LAHORE AND KARACHI.
1024 ... lit. 'l". S. Av1DUhWngam. Ohet\lar: Will Government state: (n) whether the Quet.ta Head Offices have now been shifted to
Karachi; (b) if so, whether th,:re is any ntwessity for air mails to touch Quetta
now; (c) if so, whether it, ;8 t,rue thnt. if the II.lr mail between Karachi
Ilnd Lahore goes through Delhi, there will be no loss of time; and
(d) if so, whether t,hey are prepared to consider the advisability of abandoning the service between Lahore and Karachi? •
'l"M BoDourable Sir !'rank .o ~ (a) The headquarters offices of cer-tain departments of Government have been shifted from Quetta, a few t\ermanently but the greater number temporarily. Three such offices have been moved to Ka'l'achi, two temporarily and one permanently and the rest have been moved to places in the Punjab. Baluchistan or Sind
(b) The air mail service between Karachi and Lahore Dever touched Quetta. 'fhe mails for Baluchistan are landed at and collected from the aerodrome at J acobabad, the conveyance beyond J acobabad being done by train. The removal of certain headquarters offices from Quettll. has not affected the volume of air mails for and from Baluchistan which have shown an increase since t~ earthquake. Government consider, therefore, that there is every necessity for continuing the service.
(c) The reply is in the negative. (d) Does not arise.
ApPLICABILITY OF THE PUNJAB EXCISE AOT .iND EXOlSE RULES TO 'lBB DBLHI PRoVINCE.
1025. *Pandlt Krlabna Kant Kalavt),a: (Il) Is it a fact that the PunjiU, Excise Act, 1914, is applicable to the Delhi Provinoe? .
(b) Is it a fact that Punjab l!1xcise Rule, are not applicable to,flbe DeUri Province? :. (c) Is it a fact that Delhi Exci_ RUleli -.0 ict.Dtieal to PUlijah Excise ~M 1
Qt'li:8TIONSAND ANSWBBII.
(d) Ie ;t a faot that the Financial Oomtni88ioneP, Punjab through No. 1919-E. & S., dated t.he 29th Maroh, 1980. realized the hRrdshi}1
..... licenseell holding licences in the rorm L-I0 ILnd RRid:
• 'DlH'ing the laat few yeare imp«!rta of cheap foreign .pirit have been on a coDliderable eeale, thi. Bplrit. compete. with Indian made foreip .piri' .ad, to a l_r edent, alao with country liquor, ··the reBult o t~ o ~ t on was that in renain cales Jit'enBees holding licences in the
Form L-2 and Belling cheap imported foreign spirit, were able to nnder-sell licensees holding bazar licelloel in til. Form L-IO for the vend of inferior forelgyl Bpirit., thi. inlerior foreip .pirit hal previously been manufactured almost entirely in the ProVlDce, but, when cheap foreign "pirit began to be imported, licensee. holding licences in the Form L-2 .with fixed fees were able to undersell licen_1 holding licene .. in the Form L-10, who had had to bid for these lioenC811 .t the excise auctiOill and to pay vend fee. with a fairly high rate of incidenoe, the leverity of thiB competition was increased by the fact. that the feee lor licences iu the Form L-2 were very leniently ayel.ed, and, although according to the regUlations laid down in Section 337 of the Puniab Excise Manual, Volume I, the licence fee was to be ealculated ron,hly on recorded .le figures, certain lar,e conBignments of imported foreign liquor were never entered in the registers of BOme licensees, and thul the licence fee were very much underaI!ll8Bsed"!
(e) Is it a fact that licences in Form L-2 and Form L-I0 Bre granted in the Delhi Provinoe?
(f) Is it 1\ fact that. Indian manufactured foreign 'Spirits are sold by licensees holding licence L-2?
JIr. A. B. Lloyd: With your permission, Sir, I propose to unswer questions Nos. 1025, 1026 and 1027 together.
The information is being obtained and will be laid on the table in due course.
GRANT 01' LIOBNOES FOR VBNDING FORBIGN LIQUOR IN DBLHI.
tI026. *Pandlt Krl'lhna Kan, .alavly.: (n) 111 it " fact that the Chief CommiSsioner, Delhi, has granted licences for the manufacture, supply, .tmage and sale of liquor in Delhi to the following firma and p(1rBona in Forms !stated against each: ,
(1) Messrs. Phiph!lon & Co., I .. td .. in F'orm I.-1, L-2, & 1.-11; (2) M ~ . Spencer & Co .. Ltd., in }'orm L-l &' L-2.
(3) ME-Rllrs. R. S. Rhola Ham & Sons. in l<'orm L-l.T...-2, 1..-4 & 1.-11;
(4.) Mr. Hillis Ham KlIpoor. in Form I.-IO:
(5) Mr. Ramji DAS. ill Form L-IO; (6) Messrs. J. Morton & Co., in Form L-l & L-2; Bnd (7) M ~ . Desh & Co., ill Form L-1 and 1.-2?
(b) Is it a fact that the eops or omoea of the said firma (1) to (6) are ~ the Mlmicipal boundary.of Delhi?
tJl'or ~na ' to tRia qutlltion, .u aDBWer to queation No. lOti.
LIIGIIlLATIVE ASSDBLY. [9TH MARCH 1988.
(e) Ie it a fact that shops of the said firms and persons are located in Bav.OIll'S called (i) Kashmiri Gate Bazaar, (ii) Morl Oatil Bazaar, (iii) Church Road Bazaar, (iv) Chowri Bazaar, (v) Conn8ught Place Bazaar, and (vi) Gol Market Bazaar?
(d) Do Government propose to consider the advisability ~ ~t n licences On a uniform basis to all and each for the vend of. o ~ .. n bquor1 If not, why not?
GRANT OF LICENOES FOR VENDING FOREIGN LIQITOB IN DELHI.
+1027. *Plmdit lCrlshna Kant .ala.viy .. : (a) Is it n fact that the Chiot Commissioner, Delhi, has promulgated rules for the grant of licences for the manufacture, supply, stor8'ge and sale of liquor in the Delhi Province?
(b) Is it ~ fact that the said rules provide grant and renewal of the laid licences in forms L-l to L-22-A? •
(c) Is it a fact that a lit'ence in Form L-2 does not authorize consump-tion on the premises?
(d) Is it a faut that n licence in form L-IO will ordinarily be for "oft" consumption?
(e) If the replies to parts (a) to (d) be in the u.ffirmat.ive, will Govern-ment pleURe '!Itnte.
(i) the material differellce between a licence in Form L-2 (whole-sale and retail vendor of foreign liquor to the public only) IInl1 n Iicenc£, in Form L·lO (retail Bazaal vendor of foreign liquor); .
(ii) the substantial difference between a Civil Station or Canton· ment or any other place and a BaJlJsar;
{iii) whether in a Civil Station or CflIltonment or any other place u Bazaar is provided or no Bazaar is situated within the said boundary;
(iv) whether a Bazaar is ordinarily situBted within population boundary' or otherwise;
(v) whether the shops in 8' Civil Stution or Cantonment or any other place or Bar.aar are governed or controlled by rules uniform in each individual respE:cts or otherwise;
(vi) whethcr n licensce is pennitted to sell bot,h imported foreign liquor Rnd Indian t~ n liquor on ont' licence in Form L-2; if so, under what rule; and
(vii) the reaSODS for the differential treatment, if any, to shopa within a Municipal boundary or Bar.aar?
(f) Has the attention of Government been drawn to the Financial Commissioner, Punjab's No. 5923-S.R., dated the 22nd December, 1928 conta:ning the deoision that no licences will be issued for the sale of foreign liquor in Form I.·I0? If so:
<i> why bu the Delhi Province a Form of Lieence-L-IO; (ii) what are the reasons for not adopting the said fundamental
prinoiple by the.Delhi Province AdminiatratiOD;and tFor anlwer to thl. qlleitiOll, 11ft anewer to qllutiOli No. 10R6.
QVIiSTIONB AND A!lSWBas.
(iii) ~ Government prepared to renlove the anomtLly createdi' by the grant of Jicences in f'orms L·2 ad 1.·10 for, the vendor of foreign liquor under two difterent styles and, terms when under licence Form L-2 the licensee is permitted' to seit foreign liquor either imported or manufactured in, T ndia? If not, why not?
HINDUS AND MUSLIMS DISMISSED AND Al'POIN'l'J!lD BY THE SENIOR SUPO· INTENDENT, WAYS AND WOlUtS,. MOBADABAD, DIVISION, EAST lNDIA5 RAILWAY.
1028. *Pandit KriahDa Kant lIalavtya: (a) Will Gove:Tllment please state the number of Hindus and Muslims, both non-ga1tetteti and work charged, removed, discharged or dismissed from the service, b;} the Senior Superintendent, Ways and Works, Moradabad Division. on the East Indian·: Railway?
(bl Will Government pleaso sta.te: (i) the number of Hindus and Muslims appointed; (ii) the number of Hindus replaced by Muslims; (iii). the policy of Government in this respect; and (iv) whether they are aware of the impression that there is too much,
• of communal prejudice in the maft88'8ment 'of this Depart-ment?
The Honourable Sir Mubammad Zafrullah Dan: (al Only one Muham· madan head trollyman was removed from service.
(b) (i) Three Muslims were appointed as tracers as Bubstitutes in leave vacancies and olle was appointed 118 mistri permlmently.
(ii) No Hindu was either dismissed or discharged in order to make. room for a Muslim.
(iii) It is not clear in what respect the Honourable Member wants to. know the policy of Government. If he wants to know whether it iR the o ~ of Government to !epiace ~n by Muslims the reply is in the·
,negatIve. The orders 1ilang cartaln percentages for Muslims and other minority communities relate only to direct recruitment.
(iv) Government do not think that there is any valid ground for the· &of.leged impression.
FIlB FOB THB SUPPLY OF TENDBR SplI:mFICATIONI.
1029. *P&Ild1& .UaIwa&ha Du: (a) Do the purchasing d£.parlmente of· Government including Railwa.,s, both State and Company-managed,. charge a fee for the supply, of tender specifications?
(b) If so, what is the charge in amount and how is it calculated? (c) Is this charge for tender forms returnable? (d) If not. what is the principle underlying this charge;'
'1'ba Kaeoarable Sir JInDk -o.rce: Information has been called for and: a 'reply will be placed .-i the table of the House in due course ..
-:; . [9TH MARCH 1986. I.&OISLATIVB ASSBMBLY.
btOOMB AND EJr;PBNDITURB 01' CANTONJlENT BoARDS.
1030. *1Ir. BhamLla:' (a) Will 'Government be pleased hI lay on the table a statement showing for eaoh Cantonment a at ~ the labEls' 'figures, ·.>f it;,lnl income, total expenditure, the income from 10c ... 1 taxes. the rates of local taxes (except the schedules of octroi :Illd terminal and professional taxes), and the incidence of local taxation '~ head?
(b) What system is employed in the calculation of the incidence for civil ..and military population?
(0) Do Government make any contribution by way of gr&'lts.in.sid, sub· ventions. allotment of Government land income, or otherwise, to these local bodies, where military interests' are said to predominate? If so, what is the amount and the nature of contribution in each Cf.ose?
Mr. G. B. "I. To\tlmham: (a) The collection of the information !lsked for by the Honourable Member would entail an expenditure of tim'3 and ·labour which would be incommensurate with the result. (b) Theo incidence of taxation is not calculated for the civil und mih·
~ta population separately.
'I'he incidence is calcule.ted as follows:
.. (i) Receipts from 'direct' tuxes, IIllch UII hOllse tax, art' divided by the population excluding troops and authorised followers.
(ii) Receipts from 'indirect' taxes, such as octroi, ~ divided by t.he local population including troops and authonsed followen;.
'fhe sum of (il and (ii) represents the incidence.
(c) Yes, Sir. In 1935·36, Government provided for RB. 68,000 and Rs. 75,000 liB ordinary and special grants-in.aid, respectively, for distri-1>ution during the year to those Cantonment Authorities who required iinancial assistance. The Cantonment Authorities also derive an income of about Rs. 4 lakhs 8S their share of receipts from Government land& mlUlsged by them· In addit,ioll, all proceeds from licences granted by '()antonment Authorities for the temporary occupation of Government land entrusted to their management are credited to cantonment funds. The Uovernment of IndiBl are in fact responsible for maintaining the financial .equilibrium of cantonment funda.
INCOMB I'ROM AORIOULTUILAL LANDS IN CANTONMENTS.
1031. *1Ir. Sham Lal: (a) Will Government be pleased 1.0 state whether 'it is &J fact that up to 1925, the entire ineome from agricultural l.nds in ·Cantonments, was allowed to the Cantonment local funds.?
(b) lR it 1\ f.act that from the year 1925·26 up to 1984·86, one·fourth share of the agricultural land income in Cantonments was credited to the -Central revenues?
(c) If the answer to part (b) be in the affirmative, ",hnt was the total .-amount so c!'edited?
(d) Is it a fact that since 1984-85, the remaining ~ o ~t a shaJ:e of -the agricultural land incomes haa also been taken a~ frcru the lOAl Cantonment Fund?
QUESTIONS AND ANSWBRS.
(e) If the answer to part (d) be in the affirmative, what is the amount that each Cantonment has loat thereby, and how do Government propose-to reimburse the local funds on account of this 1088?
Mr. G. B. ~. 'I'o\Wtham: (a) Yes, Sil'. (b) Yes, Sir. This procedure is stilI being follow.ed. (r) Tht' collElction of the information required would entail an expen-
diture of time and labour which would be incommensurate with the ~.
(d) No. The position is, that under the rules framed under the Can-tonments Act of 1924, Cantonment Authorities are the agents of llovem-ment for the management of certain la'Dd!!. including agrioultural landl!. As payment for the trouble. expense and responsibility of management. Government allot a share of the proceeds from the lease of such lands. to the Cantonment Authority. The allotment ordinarily made gives the Cantonment Authority the generous shal'e of three quarters of the pro-
~ , but· the GO\"ernment, reserve the right to varythRt share, according' to the real needs of the cantonment. . '
(e) This part of the question does not strictly arise but if thE> exist-ing rules are changed. steps will certainly be taken to ensure tha.t Can. tonment Authorities are provided with sufficient funds to discharg(' thell' duties &odequately.
GBANTS·IN·Am TO CANTONMBNT FUNDS.
1032. -Mr. Sham Lal: (a) Will Government be pleased to state the amount of grants-in-aid, recurring and. non-recurring, nnd the purpose or' purposes for which they were paid to each Cantonment Fund in the year for which latest figures are available?
(b) What amount out of the total grant-in-aid fund, represents the transfer back to Military Engineering Services for water supply in Cantonments?
(c) Is any amount of the grant earmarked for extending educationAl' activities, among the civilian residents of Cantonments? If so, what is t ~ total amount of money spent during the last year? If not, why not?
(d) Are there any rules regarding the distribut.ion of grants·in·aid to· Cantonment Funds?
(e) If the answer to part (d) be in the affirmative, will Govemnlent be' pleased to lay a copy of the same on the table of the House?
Mr. G. :I.. ~. '1'oUeDham: (a) I lay on the table a statement showing the amount of grants-in-aid so far Blmctioned to Cantonment Authoritiei during the year 1985-86. Grants-in-aid are of two classes, namely, ordinary and special. Ordinary grants-in-aid aTe those which are required to make up a Blore or less permanent deflciency of revenue as compared with expenditure on normal cantonment administration. Special grants.in.aid .we thQle which are required for the financing of some desirable icheme of public ~ t which it is the legitimate function of a Cantonment Authorit, ~ ~ , but which cannot be financed in itA entirety from the existing' l'lIIOUI'OM of iIle Cantonra.ent Fund.
j!J()70 I.EGISLATIVK AS8BMDI.Y. [9TH MARCH 1986.
(b) I am afraid my Honourable friend is under some misapprehension. In cantonments where water is supplied by the Military Engineer Services; -debits are raised against one head of the Defence Services Estimates for . the total quantity of water supplied to paying consumers and the recoveries made by Cantonment Authorities from these consumers are credited to another head of the same . t~ . 'fhc diJJerence between the COl!t of water supplied and the recoveries made is oi present about 5 lakhs per .annum .
• (c) No amount is so earmarked. but grants-in-uid can bE! given for edu--eational purposes.
(d) No, Sir.
(e) Does not arise.
Special D/'ants-ill-aid 80 far sanctioned to Cantonment Authoritiu during the !!ea., 1986·86.
RI. 1,8!2 to Cantonment Authority. Muttra For construotion of certain pucca dra. Ra. 8,937 to Cantonment Authority, Benarea For relurfaoing and allphaltill8 certain
Cantomnent fund roadll. "Ra. 111,1110 to Kirkee
Cantonment
S.. IS.III0 to C"ntonment Campbellpore
RI. 8.600 to Cantonment Dharamala .
Authority,
Aut.hority.
Authority.
RI. 1,350 to Cantonmer.t t o t~ .
8ubathu
RI. 3.180 to CantonmeDt Authority. Almora
RI. 1,800 to Cantonment Drigh Road. . . RI. 6,000 to Cant.onment Miapladon .
RI. 10.000 to Cantonment Poona .
Authority.
Authority.
Authority.
For payment of arreara of contribution due from the Cantonment Authority. Kirkee, to the Infec,tiollR Dil8a.111l11 Hospital, Poona.
For drainage BOheme fOI" the village lIituated in the cantonment and for the construe· tion of group at n ~ for that dllage and for the Radar Bazar.
For the on~t t on of a bunlZlllow for the E_tive Ofticer. .
For paving of Bome bazar roads and CODS· tructiOD of drain".
For repairinll t.he oantonment fund ~
low.
For proviliiOD of a }e"el croaaing.
For t.lie maintenanoe of roacl8 and for oover-ill8 the deficit in revenue caull6d by the reduotion ill the anDual ren .. 1 value of omeen' bungalowi.
For laIlitary meuurea ill Ghorpuri aDd Wanowrie vil".
OrdinAry grant.-in-aid 80 far 8Anctioned ~ Cantonmllnt Authoritie8 during the Y64' 1936·36.
Cam-pbeUpore Amri'" Baroda Jalapahar Leboll8 Almo.... . Jlinpladon .
Be. •• 218 6,886 400 1,447 4.570 1.182 1'.893
QtTKSTIONfI AND ANIIWBRS. 20'71
]!I ACILITIBS TO THB GOVIIRNMBNT 01' INDIA STAl!'I' TO APPlUB 111' TJO EXAKINATION FOB CLBRKS AND ASSI8TAlmJ.
1033. *S&r4ar Sant Sblgh: (a) Was a representation made by the Imperial Secretariat . o ~t on that o~ ~ n nt employees ~ . ~ some oonce88ions for appeanng In the exammatlon for Second DIVISion clel'kll .and ~t , i.e., the age limit should be raised in their favour?
(b) Are' Government prepared to accede to their request in connection with the examination to be held in 1987, ~ no notice has been taken of if; for the present? If not, why not?
(c) Are Government aware that there is a large number of hrilliant graduates ",ho joined Government service as routine division ~
(d) If the answer to parts (b) and (c) be in the negative, are Govern-ment prepared to institute a departmental examination, as used to exist previously, so that the qualified candidates may have better chances of promotion?
(e) If the answer to parts (1)) and (c) be in the affirmative, are Govern-ment prepared to oonaider the desirability of giving three chances to the Government servants instead of two?
The Bonourable Sir Henry 0r&I.k: (a) Yes. In 1988 the Imperial Secretariat Association submitted such a representation which was rejected.
(b) to (el). To improve the system of recruitment in the Government of India Secretariat and its attached o ~, ordel'S were issued in 1928 laying down conditions for udmission to the examinatiolls held by the Public Service Commission and fixing percentages of vacancies to be filled by external recruitment and departmental promotion. The scheme was brought into operation from the 1st April, 1980, and persons in Gov-ernment service, both permanent. and temporary, prior to that dote, were given a final opportunity of qualifying for promotion at special qualifying -examinations held ill Ul20 and 1981. The age-limits and educational qualifications prescribed in the orders oi 1928 were relaxed for these persons on the broad consideration that those who had been recruited before the new" system came ioto force and had not, therefore, had an opportunity of qualifying for promotion should not be denied such an opportunity. Vested interests having thus been met, Government do not .consider that there is any further necessity for relaxing the age-limit or for holding special qualifying examinationB, eBpecially as the age-limits are such as to permit candidates to sit either for the combined examination for the First and the Second Divisions or the separate examination for the 'Third Division or both. Those who take the latter examination only do 110 of their own choice and are not entitled to any special consideration.
(e) Does not arise.
ExlblPTlON 01' A CDTADT CLAss 01' GoTEBH'-NT ~ J'BO. 'l'IIII OPBBATION 01' TJIB RBVIS.D RATES 01' PAY RULBS.
1084. *P&Dd1t BIlabDUla Du: (a) Will Government please state the 1'8&1on for exempting, in clause 8 (iv) of the Home Department Notification No. F.-886/S8 (EstabliBhments), dated the 22nd September, 1988, from the operation of the Revised Rates of Pay Rules those "Government servants who appeared in an examination held by the Publie Service CommiBsion before 16th .July, 1981, but who nt~ o . ~ .. rvice after th£- 15th . ~, 1931?
I.BGI8LATIVE A,8SBMBI,Y, [9TH MARCH 1986i.
(b) Will Government be pleuec1 to state why DO proViaioo far a. exemption was made in the above notification for those Government lervants whole appointments were not subject to Publio Service Commia-mon examination, but wbo likewise joined service after the 15th July, 1981.,.
(0) Are Government DOW prepared to amend the .. ruJee 80 51 to pro-. vide for the exemption of tbe olals of Government servant. mentionea in part (b) abo". from the operation of the Reviled Rata of l'ay Rul.?· If . not, why DOt.?
fte Honoarable IIr .Jamea GrIg: (8) It was considered only reasonuble' that those who had studied for and passed an examination-not only an' examination beld by the Public Service Commission-before any warning-WRS illsued that the rates of pay would be reduced and who had, therefore, done so on the assumption that they would get the then existing rates of' pay, should flot be subjected to the revised scales of pay. That WAS re-· garded as a sufficient reason to make an exception in their CS'8e.
(b) As has already been stated the exemption il not limited to examina.· tions held by the Public Service Commission. The orders in Finance De·· partment Hesolution No. D-4523-Ex. 1./31, dated the gth July, 1981,:. by providing for appointmeni"8 t,o be made on u provisional footing pending. completion of the review of expenditure of the o n~ of Indio then proceeding, were spccifically intended to prevent the accrual of vested. rightK and these orders definitely implied that persons appointed on or after.-the 16th July, 1981, would be subject to the new conditions of service' which might be imposed as II. result of that review.
(c) No. The publication of the :l<'inance Department Resolution of the.· 9th ;fuly, 1981, ill regarded"" having been sufficient warning.
EMPLOYMBNT OF "DUPFEBIN" CADBTS.
1036. '4I1Ir. I. latyamultl: Will the Honou1'8ble the Commerce MembW be pleased to state:
(a) the number of "Duflerin" cadets so far turned out, after t.raining;·
(b) the number of them employed; and I
(e) whether Government have taken steps to procure suitabl,e, employments for them?
The Honourable IIr Kuh&llUll&d Zafrallah Khan: (a) I would refer the· Honourable Member to the reply given by me on the 20th February, 1986,. to parts (a) and (0) of Profe8801' N. G. Banga's starred question No. 700.
(b) So flft' I\S Government are aware, of the 49 a ~t who have takerr their Certificates of Competency lip to the end of January, 1986, 42 havA' ~ n employment.
(e) Attention is invited to the reply given by me on the 94th Februaryr 1986, to part (a) of Pandit Govind Ballabh Pant's st.alTed question No_ '744.
Qt'XST10NS ~ ANSWSBS. 20'13
lMDUJT SHIPS IN 'ftIB OCBAN"OOING TlLu'nc AID GmcuLAB BE ·SUI'IIOBT TO EMPIBB SWPPll(O.
,,036. *Mr. a. ad,a.1Int: Will the Honourable t.he Commerce )(8lIlber be pleased to state:
(a) t.he number and tonnage of Indian ships ~ the ocean-going traffic;
{b) whether t.he Government. of India are prepared to takt: t. ~ to see that much benefit accrues to the Indian sbips as Q result. of the circular referred to in my starred question No. 24 which WIl" I\l1swE'led on the 4th February, 1936; and
~ if not, whet.her they propose to withdraw theiroircular?
The Honourable III Muhammad ZafrullIh KbaI1: .(a) The iniormat·ion is being collected and will be laid on the table ol the House in due course.
(b) In tbe circular letter referred to, Government have suggested tht> deairability of tlle greater utilization of Empire shipping and, as I stated in reply to tbe supplementary questions, arising from the question referred to by the Honourable Member, the term "Empire shipping" includes Indian shipping. In the circumstances, Government, do not consider that
:any further steplil ore calltld for. ,(c) No.
Mr. I. latJamurti: Will Government. 8S 800n lUI the:v get the informa-tion, which they bllve promiRed to eollect, inquire further, to what extent the benefit accruing from th!' acceptllIlce of this circular by UIC l.ocal Governments Ilnd locol bodies will go to Indian itiwppititt. 'Bnd. thrm, on the basil' of t,he resu)t,s of t.hat inquiry, reconsider the whole matter?
The Honourable III K1Ihammad Za!ruJlah 1Dwa: I do not think it will be possible in the first place to II'Ilcertain whether and to w.hat t'~nt ,the issue of this circular has benefited Empire shipping: if it were poss.ible to '8scertain that, it may be possible to ascertam to what extent it might benefit purely Indian shipping; but Government have no meaDS of ascer-taining the extent of benefit to Empire snipping.
Mr. 8. latyamurU: Will Government consider the issue of a circular to I.ocal Governments and local bodies speoifically to encourage Indian
~. by importing their requirements through Tndian ships?
'!'he JIoDouable IIr Muhammad Zafrullah Kh&D: As Empire shipping includes Indian shipping. I have no rell'llon to imagine that Local Govern-ments and municipal bodies would not encourage Indian shipping as well as other Empire shipping.
Mr. 8. BatyamurU: Will Government press upon them to givp. pre-ference to Tndian IIhipping. as opposed to non-Tndian IIhipping, t,hough it may he Empire shipping?
fte HOI101I1'able 81l Muhammad ZafralI&b 'Kh&D: Would that. not. to '8 very large ext,cnt, depend on the information which I havl" pmmised to collect?
• o
2074: ~ ASSEMBLY. [9TH ]dAReH 1936.
111'. S. Sa\yamunt: Will Government then consider it, lifter receiving th(' results of the inquiry?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah KhaD.: That is U' hypothetical question: let us first get the information under (a) and then see what is possible.
REPIAcntENT OF INDIANS IN THE PORT DIRECTORATE SERVICE IN IRAQ.
1037. *PancUt lftlakantha DaB: (n) Has the attenLion of Government been drawn to the communication from an influential Indian settler in Iraq to Dr .. Rabindranath Tagore, published in the 'Hindustan Times of the 10th Februnry, 1936 on pnge 3, column I?
(b) Are Government aware that prompt measures are being taken by the Iraq Government to replace the few Indians in the service of the Port Directorate, though they arc expert in t,heh' trade?
(c) Are Government aware, as is understood from the communication, that the nex.t onslaught is going to be directed against Indians in com-mercial houses?
(d) As to the measures being directed against all foreigners alike, are Government aware that British residents are protected by treaties and that new treaty negotiations are proceeding with Arabs, Persians and other foreignerS'. as stated in the communication? If 80, what are Government doing in this connection? '
Sir Aubrey Metcalfe: (a) Yes. (b) The Port authorities whose employees are Government officials
. aTe continuing the policy which they have followed for a number of y-earB of gradually replacing Indians by Iraqi subjects as the latter become com-petfi\nt to hold such posts. But there has been no recent acceleration of the process nor any o a ~ discharge of Indians still remaining in such posts, nor does it appeRT that any such steps ure contemplated. It will no doubt be realised tha.t the gradual replacement of British subjects and British Indian subjects in Iraqi Government service is a natural corollary Ilf the termination of Great Britain's mU'Ddate over· IrMq,
(0) Nothing is known of any action which could be held to he directed aguillst Indians in commercial hOU86S except the law restricting trades to Iraqis, which has not yet received the Royal Assent. This is still in the forlll of un incomplete law wd the extent to which it may affect Indians cannot be calculated until regulatiolls which are I'equired to give effect to till' Ill\\, III'e issued. .
(d) So far us the Govel'lllnent of India are IIware British subjects enjoy 110 'r""lIt,v protect.ion in this matter which is not I1lso uvu:lable t.o Indians . . \8, however, I stated in reply to pllrt. (h) of question No. 240 nsked h.Y HdhHaji Abdoolu Hnroon on the IUh Februury, HlOO, further enquir-ies LIre h'1ing lllllde on thi" point und the result. will be communicated to tIlt.' HOllse in duE' eonrsl'. , Ho far as the Government of India tIl'e aware no Treaty is at present under negotiation between Iraq nnd allY other Stntc whillh secures uny special right·s in the matter of residence and trading ' ~ t for nationals of other countries. Thc lust pnrt of the qut'.8tiou .. toes not, thel'efore, arise.
QUBSTIONS AND ANSWERS. 2075
Mr, X. AIlu.Ul&8&yu.am AYYlDlar: Have Government now at least tril:!d to Ilscertain what t ~' amendments [I're that have been moved to tb& original Bill?
Sir Aubrey Metcalfe: Certainly, we are taking steps 'to Bscertain exactly how the law will stand when it has received the Royal 8'Ssent which is not yet done.
1Ir. M. AIlu.thuayuam AYYlDlar: Do Government propose to inter-cede before it receive8 the Royal assent, 80 that suitable modificat,ions may be made if they are prejudicial to the interests of Indians?
Sir Aubrey Metcalfe: Do Government propose to do what? I could not catch the Honourable Member's question.
1Ir. X • .Ananthasayanam AYYaDIar: Do Government propose to inter-cede before the Royal ussent is re(leived and is fixed upon the Statute-hook ~o that suitable amendments may be made so as not to affflet the Indilllls in Iraq?
Sir Aubrey Xetcalfe: GOVl'rnrnent cannot take any action which they have not, nlready taken. That action was, as I have explained to the House, to keep themselves_ thoroughly informed of the position and to 81\k His M:ajesty's Ambassador in Iraq to tllke every possible step to enaure t,hrlt Indian rights .are properly Rl.lfeguarded.
Xr. X. AIlaDtbasayu.am AYYlDlar: How do the amendments alect the Indian rights?
Sir Aubrey •• tcalfe: As I have said, the law is not yet finally passed. I hope to be able to lay " copy of the law as finally passed on the table of the House in the near future. It only now, awaits the Royal assent, and, as soon 8S that has been received, I will lay ,a copy on the table of the House, and Honourable Members can then sahisfy themselves exactly QS t.o t.he terms of the law.
leUl Bail Abdoola ,Buooa: Is it a faet, Sir, that about two to three thousand Indians are trading in Iraq, now, and recently the Iraq Gllvern-ment have introduced a rule not to issue new passports to new-eorners? Every year, those Indians, who wiah to tra4e in Iraq, bave to appear hefore Borne officer und get their passports, but is it a faet that IllSt year some IImaU traders and artiSBns were refused passports and they were askea f.o return to India?
Sir Aubrey •• tcalfe: That, Sir, is not my information, but if the Hnnourable Member \\ill bring to my notice any specific caSf! in which an IndillTl trodpr hos been unfairly treated, I IIhould he very glad t.o IUake representat.ionR on the subject.
1Ir .•. AIlaDthasayanam An ... ar: As regards the terminat.ion of the serviees of Indinns. arc their serviceR terminated o ~ their term is over?
Sir Aubrey .etcalfe: .. have giv<m 11'11 the information that ,I could giYl' in the main reply t,o the quest,ion. There is nothing more that I enn ndd to what T hllve nlrf'ody Raid.
0:1
2076 LEGISLATIVE ASSBMBLY. [9TH MARCH 1988.
TBANSJII88ION 01' GoLD BULLIOlf BY POST.
lOBS. "'Mr. Ihthuradu Villanli: (8) Have Government received any complaints thllt. the present limit of Rs. 700 in value for transmission of gold bnlliflll by post is inadequate?
(b) Will Government please Elt·ate when this limit was fixed and What the price of gold per tola in those days was?
(c) If t·he reply to part (n) be in the affirmative, are Government prepared to consider the question 0f increasing the limit?
(d) Are Government aware that, as a result of the appreciation in I.he price of gold, the quantity of gold that mny be transmit.ted under t.he existing value. limit is substantially reduced?
(e) Are Government prepared t.o consider the advisability of refixing the limit in terms of tolas of gold, so that the quantity allowed to be tt'ansmitted mav be t.he Sillne as before 1931 8U11 mav not be affected bv fiuctuatiolls in 'gold prices? " .
(f) Is it a fact that gold or silver ornaments can sq..jII be transmittt1d by post up t.o a mllximupi value of ~. fl,(II)()?
(g) If f:O. are th"TC :1II:V Rpecinl ' a n~ fOT fixing a differential limit fOl' 1.:(0ld hullion from that for jewellery?
The BODourable Sir I'ra.nk Boyce: The answer to parts (a), (d) and (f) is in the affirmative and to parts (c) and (f') in t.he n£'gntivf'. TIl£' :tnilWf>I'!I
to the other parts are as followB:
(b) lRt September. 1925. The price of gold per tola WIIS about Bs. 21-7-0 in September, 1925.
(II) Yes. Gold coin and bullion ordinarily cannot be identified and their transmi&sion therefore involves greater risk to the department and greater danger to the safety of mails than is involved in the transmi&sion of ornaments.
RBOlitTl'l'MBn I'OB JUDGBSBIP 01' THB CIvn. Alm M"lLITABY &rATION, BANGALOBB.
1089. ·1Ir ••. .baD\b.U&yanam An'aDlar: (a) Is it a fact that the recruitment for judgeship of the civil and military station, Bangalore, used to be made from among t·he members of the Madras Judicial Service until recently?
(b) Is ill a fact that the Munsif Magistrate of the said station used to be selected from the District Munsifs of the Madras Presidency and was included: in the cadre of the Madras Judicial Service?
(c) Are Government aware that in view of the above fact, several graduates in law entered the clerical service in the courts of the !laid Munsif and Judge at Bangalore, in the hope of selection to the Madras Judicial Service?
(d) Are Government 8wa.re that recently the a t~~ of ~t n Judges and Mag\!dratt'1! for the st.atlon from t t~ Madras JudlclI\1 Sel'Vlce ~ belln given, up?
QUXSTIONS A!'.b ANSWEIlS.
Sir £ubny KetcaUe: (a) The post ofi District and Sessions Judge. Civil and Military Station. Bangalore. was included in the Madras Provincial Cl vil Service from 1921 to 1926, since the latter year it has become a localised post. although it continued to be filled from the Mlldrul! l)rorincial Civil Service till 1083.
(b) The post of MUIIsiff-Magistrate. Civil "nd Military StutiOll. Bangs-lore. remained on the cadre.of District Munsiffs in Madras from 1928 till the beginning of 1933. since when it hus been decided to fill it by Deputy Collectors Qf the Madr8'8 Presidency.
(c) Two law graduates entered the clerical service of the District Court at Bangalore-one in 1919 and the other in 1928. When the first candi-date entered service. the post of Munsiff-Magistrate did not exist and that of the District Judge was not borne on the Madras cadre. As regards the second candidate, Government are not aware whether he joined s('rvice lD the hOIJe of selection to the Madras Judicial Service.
(d) The position has been explained in (a) and (b) above.
Mr ••• .AI1aDthalayaD&D1 £YYaDlar: What are the rules now governing the selection of Judges?
Sir Aubrey .etcaUe: I must have notice ot. that question.
ABSORPTION OIr PBBSON8 80VING IN TIlE CIvIL AND M'ILITABY STATION. BANGALOBlI:, INTO OTHER GOVEBNlIENT SBBVIOlII8.
104(1. ·Mr .•• .AI1aDlIlUaY&ll&Dl AnaDpr: Is there anypro}JOsal for "bsorbing persons serving in the civil and military station of Bangalore into other Government services? .
Sir Aubrey Metcalfe: The reply iR in the negutive.
DESPATCH RF: FORMATION OF AN EMPIRE MARITBfE POLlCY.
1041. *M:r. S. Satyamurti (011 behalf of Heth (Jovind Das): (It) Will Oovel'lHn(,llt ~ , ~ t(1 Stllti; ir their attention hilS been drawn to thl·. f0110wing obsp.r""tion;; in ~t to the format.iOIJ of lin Empire Marit.inae ] 'olin, mfl(ie b\ Mr. ~ ' n n~ ~R nt, of HIP Honrd of 1'rncln in the House of CornmonR on the Brd .July, 1IJ34? "T nfled ~ ud,) that in considering these prohlem. it iM "MlIP.ntin) to huve the
co-operation of the Dominions and JDdi... We muaL boar iD mind not "uly the position of tramp 8hipping. hut the p08ition in Nome of the gr,.lIt n~ trad ... ~ ' thOle between different parts of the F.:mpir.. whi<-h ure fOella('l'd Ilv 8ul'MidiwNI f"reign competition. We are therefor .. informing th .. Dominio,," and Judi .. (If th .. ro.ition &8 we ~ it and seeking their views IlS to the possihl .. lineR of action,"
(b) If the answer to part (a) be in the afJinnativs. will Government be pleased to state if it is not a fact that they received 11 Despatch 011 the subject. of the Empire Maritime Polieyfrom' th' R ~ t Honollmblp Sir John Simon, then His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in the laat quarter of the year 1984:? ."
(c) If the answer to part (b) be in the affirmative, will Government be pleAsed to lay on the table a copy of the Despatch referred to above? (d) If the answer to part (b) be in the atBrmative. will Govemm.ent ,be
pleased to lay on the table the reply that they may have sent to the above Despatch?
2O'l8 J.EGIHI,ATIVE -'I!SEMBI,Y. i9TH MARCil 1936.
(e) Will Government be pleased to state if they consulted the commercial and particularly the shipping interests in regard to the subject matte:- of the Despatch mentioned above?
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zatrullab Khan: (a) Government are aware of t.he sta't-ement made by the I)resident of the Ronrd of Trade In the House of Commol1l; on the "Brd July, Hl34. .
(b) In pUfI!UanC(: of that stattlruent II. communication was a ~ ' to the Government of Indiu by the ~ ta ' of Atate for India.
(c) and (d). I regl·ct I am 1I0t in a position to do so. R'8 the com-f1nmicllt.ions Hrp (·onfidential.
(e) No.
IIr. S. Satyamurti: \Vus any (JOmlUllllieation adelrElSsed to the Goyern-meut of .I nelin 'i
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullab Khan: 1 said n communica-tion WUf; addressf'd t,o the Gonmunent of ] Ildin h.'· 1 he Hecrelury of State for Indiu.
Mr. S. Satyamurti: Will Oovernruent plncc U (,opY of the despatch on t.he tuhle of the House?
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zafrullah Ithan: '1'h(· qllPstioll n>IIlIl·f; t.o the despatch seut. by the l"oreign Secret.ary. I havp snid there was only a communication fl'Om thc Secretar,Y of Htate.
IIr. S. Satyamurti: May I know. Hir, if the Government of India addressed t.iw (}overnment· of (heat. Brituin on t.hifi nUltter nt nil?
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zafrullab Khan: Does the HOlloura.ble Mf'mlwr Illl'an ill reply t.o the communication by the Secrets!'y of Sta.te?
Xr. S. Satyamurti: Or in connection with this mlltt.er, K'S a result of I;h(' commnnication from the Secretary of! Stat.eor from any other !iource on this mat.ter? .' "
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Z&frullah Khan: I belieye, Sir, tlds is t,he same matter to which I hll"ve given replies previonsly regarding the circulllr letter.
Mr. S. 8atyamurtl: Is that all?
'lb. Honourable Sir Muhammad Safrullah Khan: Yes.
Mr. N. II. Joahi: l\lay I know if the (lo\'emment of lndia are Ilware t,hat t~ t Indil1l1 ,~ ' , employed on British ships. have been si.:bsti-tnft·a hy Hritish Sl'amen on Bl·itish ships?
Th. Honourable Sir Muhammad Zatrullab Khan: That dOE'll not mise out of 'I hill q\\l'!l1"ion
QUBSTJOll$ AND ANSWB&8. 2079
1Ir. S. Satyamurtl: Arc the Government of India aware that rpoently the British Government have given a subsidy to tramp shipping, 1\'8 it is called.. and whethe.r Government have considered taking similar (lotion with regard to Indian shipping' of different classes?
"l'he Bonourable S1r Muhammad Zafrullall ][han: That does not arise out of this ques.t;ion.
Mr ••••. oTOIhi: May I know, Sir, whether Indian lascars. as members ·of the British Empire and suhjeets of the British Orown, have got no rights as rego.rds employment on British ships when the British ships claim eoncE-ssions in Indinn waters '!
Mr. President (The Honourfrble Sir Abdur Rahim): It nas nothing to do wit,h ,the present question.
1Ir .•.•. oTOIh1: It has something t.o do with this, Sir. In this way, that, IlS II result of tit£' discuRsion in t,he House of! Comm6ns on the sl,baidv t.o tramp shipping, HIP BritiRh sel1men:s rcvrcse{ltative insisted upoil Brit.ish senm('n heing substituted for Indinn InscarR ....
Mr. President (The Honourahle Sir Ahdnr Hahim): The ChAir does not think t.hnt RTisCR ont of fhi!'; Illlp.st,ion.
The Bonourable Sir Muhammad ZafruUah ][han: So fBI' as Iudin is concerned, it waR onl,v flit' circ1\]ar that, T mentionrd in my nllllWCl' thRt was re'f('lTed ,to.
PROPOSAL FOR STARTING OF AN INDlAN PASSENGER SERVICE BETWEEN BOMBAY AND EUROPE.
1042. *Kr. S. Satyamurti (on behlllf of Seth Govind Das): (II.) Will Govemlm'nt hll B ~ to state if they l"f'ceivl'!d Rny proposal on behalf of ('crt,ain finnncif'rs in Inrli" for Rome help for the starting of an Indian a~R n ' !';t'rvic't' Iwt Wf'pn ROTflha.\' nm1 o ~'
(b) If the answer to part (8) be in the affirmative, will Government be pleased to state whether it is a faot that Government turned down such a proposal?
(c) If the answer to part (b) be in the affirmative, will Government be pleased to state the 1I8asGnB th;erefor?
De Bonourable S1r Xuhammad Zafrullah ][han: (a) to (c). I received unofficially R communication from an Indian husinessman, containing 'certain proposals which were subsequently the subject of conversations 'between III!. These conversations wert' of 11 ('onfidcntinl character, and I t'egret J wm not in n position t.o ~ their purport or theil' finlLl out-come.
JIr. S. Satyamurtl: May I know at what st.age t,he mattf!r staudfl? I do not. want the nature of the convcrRations. bITt, ill t,here any propo881 now pending' before the Government for 8tBrting un Indian ' ~ ngllr Service between Bombay and Europe, in a formal or an informal m01JJ\er?
2080 LZOISLATJV.I A 88JilIOlLII. [im! MARfm 1986..
I The BOD01If&b1, Sir Mubammad Zafrullala KbaD: No.
B,1DS1DBVA.T10N OJ' TBB INTBB·IlIIPBBIAL TBA.DB TO THB BBITISlI FLAG.
1043. "'Mr. B. Satyamurtl (on behwf of Seth Govind Das): (a) Wi!! Government ~ pleased to sblte whet·her thf'y have roeeived a.ny Despatch. from the BOllrd of Trade in :Englrmd in connecltion with the reservoti.m. of the Inter.Imperial TrRde to the RritiRh Flng?
(b) If till; UDswer to R '~ (a) be in the affirmative, will Government be plaased to lilY 011 the tahle a copy of the said Despateh?
(e) If the an'8Wer to part (0) be in the affinmttive, will Governmeni be pleased to lay on the table a eopy of tlw communication that they may have sent in reply to the !mid Despntc:ll?
(d) If the answer to part (a) be in the nftinnative, will Govermllent he plt-ased to stute whether the commercial and the shipping interests were consulted by them bcft1l"e fOJ'waJ'ding their repl). to the Ronrcl of Trade?
'!'h, BODourabie Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: (11) No.
(h), (c) and (d). Do not arise.
STBAMBR SBRVICB8 ENGAGBD IN PASSENGEB TRAFFIC BETWBEN BOMBAY
AND EUROPE.
1044. "'J(r, S. Satyamurtl (Oil bf:hl.lf of Seth Govind Das): (11) Will Hovernment be.' plellS(lrl tv state if their att('lItion hns been drawn to tlw· following remnrks mncle by Sir WiIliliIn CUlTic, Deputy ~ a an of the-Penillsulu)' Ilnd Orientnl StPlII1J Nllvigut,!oll COIII)Jun.v tit tilt' 111111 II ul meeting of the Company held on tlte 11th Decelllber, 1934?· "British shipping stol'Ving India ~ grateful for the eirtUlliT ~ ~' the noYel'n·
ment· of Iudia ~ n the hopl' that the Kervirl's of British ships .hould he sought loy those travelling to lind from India under t.he Lee Commission ""hplllf'. It was auggeHted to U8 th .. other day that !.he iMBue of this dl'clllar "', .. a spN.,ie. of flag diBcrimination. But I do 110t agrel' that it ~ within this ,·ategury. 0/1 the {'ont.l'Bry it is. J think, nnl\' lUI eXIlDll'ip of the old adajl;e t a~ "he who pays the piper calls thl' tune'." . .
, (b) If the answer to part, (a) be ill t.llC! aflil'mative, will Govel'lIIlI"nt bo pleased to state whether it is British shipping that puys for the pUlisages unde)' th(' I.ee Commission schemp or whetlll'r it i" the Tndinn t.axpn.v::-rs who Pll." for these a n ~
(e) If the answer to pnrt (8) he iu the uffirmaLivc,. will (lovernnttmt be plt'IlRed to StllOO if it is not Il fact that the Ilugest n\lDlb.cr of passeng.r:lrs kavclling . to and from ~ ~n. ~ . o~ ~~ to ~ . o 1\1'r1Vl' n~.~ depnrt fl'om 130mbuy? , (d) If the nnRwer to pnrt (u) be in the UilirUHl.tive,. ~ G,0vermucnt
he plt·used to stattl if it is not 1\ fact that the Lloyd Trle,;tmo ,IS the o~ regular fl8S!!enger I:'ervict"l other than the Peninsular llnd ~ nta Lme-engaged in the passenger trnftic from Bombay to Europe and 1I1ce verBa?
ft' BCIID01IIable BJr Kubammad Zafrullah DaD: (a) Goverameflt ~
seen the statemsJlt referred to . . ~ The passages in questicmare paid for from Government revt'nues..
(0) Yes ..
QUESTIONS AKD· .tl'r.swns..
(d) No. So far 11'8 Government are aware, the City aJ1d Hall Lines, the Anchor Line and the Dollar Stellilllship Lines also maintain a Jp.gular passenger service between Bombay and Europe.
Kr. S. Satyamurtl: May I know the re8'Son why Government hovl; in-8i!'h'd thut British ships should be encouraged' by servaats wlio are getting,: the Lee Commission benefits?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad a a ~ I do not think they havE' insisted thllt British ships alone should be utilised for the purpose. J t.hink they have suggested that that might be done.
IIr. I. Satyamurti: Why have they done that '?
Kr. P. 1: • .Jame.: Why not 'I
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zlb'ullall Dan: In order to encourttgs· :Empire shipping.
IIr. 5. II . .Joab1: May 1 know whether the Government of India would: toIuggest to the Brit;sh Government that they would not allow tbt: reo plncement of Indian laskars on British STlips by British sel1men '?
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zafrullah Dan: Well, it would be an· ('luburrl\fo;sing suggcstion to have to makt.'. T am almost certain that the reply would he t.hat the British Government cannot control t.heir shipping ",ith rl'gard to the emplo;vment of anybody whose employment is permi ... ;;ihle.
Mr. S. Satyamurti: Whnt is thc benefit to the Government of India by ('ncOltrllging British ~ ~ in thif; din·ction? Mn~' I know whethel the· Government. of India get n~' henefit at all ?
The Honourable Bir Muhammad Zafrullah ][han: That. qu('stior. ha'S: been put by t.he HonollrahlE' Member on Ii previo1ls oCl'aRion and an '.~ .
Mr. S. Batyamurti: What· is t.he IfTlF;\\"('r?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Dan: The answer wss givt'Tl on thRt oceRsion.
Mr. S. Batyamurti: \Vhat is the answel' noV\'? • The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zafrullah ][han: Tn common with the"
rest of t.M '~ , India benefit,s.
1Ir. P. 1:. lame.: The British Nuvy.
Dr. Ziauddin .Ahmad: Mllv I know wh,.ther the LIovd Triest·ina and' other oompanieR take Indian 'cadets in t.heir service? .
Kr .•. S.\yamurU: Do t.he Brit,ish ships tRk(' Indinn elldetA?
The Honourable Sir Mubammad ZafraIlah Dan: Som(\ of them, ~ .
:2082 LBGISLATIVB ASSBMBLY. . [9TH !4ARCH 1936.
.IIr. lIal1ammaci Alhar Ali: Can the Honourable Member mentioD any case of service to India hy this?
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zafrullah Dan: I am afraId I am .un8ble to follow the question. Does the Honourable Member mean whether
.any cadets huve been takeR by any of the British ships? IIr. Muhammad Awr All: Mil') 1 know whether India has been
;benefited by any of these thingt;, suhsidies and 80 forth? ,.
The Bonourable Sir lIuhammad Zafrull'ah Khan: The Government of .India are not giving RnJ subsidies. to these ships.
DBOLABATIONS TAKEN FBOM THE NORTH WESTBBN RAILWAY STAFF TO AOOBPT THE REVISED LEAVE RULES ..
1045. ·1Il. LalchaDd Bavalrai: (a) With reference to Government's reply to parts (b) and (c) of Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Gidney'S unstul'red:
'que-ation No. 205, asked on the 9th March, 1985, will Government btl pleased to state why the Norlh Western Railway Administration started taking declarnt·ions from the employees meruit·eel on or after 2211d Augu!-;t 11927, though the Hailway Board iSilued instrtwtions on t~ , 1928, directing the Agents of tIl(! Stnte-managed IlailwaYR to get a declaration ·signed ~' the 'employees recruiterl on or after ht September, 1928, to ·t·he effect t ~t when t.Jw Hevisl'd Stnk Hailwll.'· L?flYe Rules Vier!" pro· mulgated they would be liable t.o hE'! brought llndE'!l' t,heir operat·ion?
(b) In view of the definite orrlers of the Hailway Board issued on 1st April. 1928, referrerl to in part (d) a o ~, rle, Government propose to give ,the employees of the North Western Railway, recruited after 22nd August, HI27 , but he fore 1st SClptember, 1928, the dnte fixfld by tho
-Railway Board, an option of 't n~ the old or the rcvisecl leave rule<l? If not. why not?
(c) Will Government be plea.sed to state if the North Western Rail-way Administration was compet.ent to ask foJ' a declnrllt,ion from the . o. ~ to the effp.ct that they agree to come under the ~' t' leave 'rules, without· re(\eiving orders from the Railway Board? If so, will Government he pleaserl to quote the specific rulp. under which this power 1s ~t in the North Western RRilway Agency?
(d) If the reply to the fll1st portion of part «(", ahove be in t·he negative, Rnrl H the power of the North Western Railway Administration for ohtaining declarations from the employees was derived from the Rail-wav Board's letter referred to in reply tc. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Hellr,y Gidney's question, do Government· propogc to Mt~ ~ the mistake of ~ ta n n declarations on the Nort.h Western Hailway eRrlier than desired 'by the RAilway Board? If not, why not?
(e) Will Government be pleased to state the rlates on and after which, ·the employees recruit·ed on t.he various State Railways ,vere caUed upon to sign II. declaration to the effe('1, t·hat on promulgation of the rE.'vISE'!d :leave rules, they agree 00 be governed by them?
(f) Is it not R. fBet that the policy of the Rai1wl\.\· Board ~ been to trllmp 0 set, or ruh,s fol' n}lp1il'nHon to nll St.atp-manl\ged Radways, and to hring them into force from the snme dat.e? If 80, why were the -revised leave rules not brought into force on the various State Ran-'WR:¥,S from the ant' and the&Amo date?
QOBSTION8 AND ANSWBR8, 2083
'1'he Boaovable Sir Muhammad ZafruIlaIl BJlaD:-(a) The North ~ t
ern Railway started taking declarations from the employees appointed on und after the 22nd August, 1927, bP.C8IlSP. they were a,ware that the intro-duction of the new leave rules WIU; under contemplatIOn. ana It ~ a intellded t.hat t.he newl,\' appointed ~t tlhrlllid be govemed ~ t ~ .
(b) No, In this connection I would invite t,he Honourable Member's attention to the information laid on the tablp. of tilt' House on the ~
Septemb('r, 191J!i, in (OOllllectioll with ]ltlJ"4' (II) lind (f) of Sir Henry Gidm',Y's ~t qU!,f;tion Nu. 205. /lsl,ed by him on t ~ 9th March, 1985.
(c) The North Western Railway took action with the lcnowledgp. of the Board. The latter part of the question does not arise.
(d) In view of my reply to part (0) this does not arise.
(e) East Indiull and Eustern Bellgal Ruihyuys, l!lt September, 19'28.
Great Indinn ]'eninsuln HnilwlL.v, lst April, 1929.
North Western Ruilwu,v. }927.
(f) The New State Railway Leave RuleR apply to all the state-mannged nailways but for t-he rE'nson given in Mr. P. R. Rau's repl,\· to part (e) of Sir Henry n '~ question No. 205, asked in this House on t·hfl 9bh March, 1985, it was not possible t,o introduce these on the flume date on the four Stat.e-managed Railways.
IIr. Lalchand Bavalral: Mltv J Imo\\" from tIll' nononrulil(· M t~
why the orders that were first ~B 8S shown in part (a) of the question were changed? What was t.he reason?
The Honourable Sir lIuhammad Zalrullah Khan: I am not nhlt, to
folIow the question. Will the Honournbl(> MplIIlll'r f'xph\in it n little mor!'?
Mr. Lalchand Bavalr&i: From part (a) of t.he question, th«· HOIl()urnhle lIemher will see that the Railway Board' issued instructionR on the' 1st April. 1928, direm.ing the Agents of the State-mllnagert Railw/lys to get a dflclaration signed by the employees recruited' on or aft-er tllt1 1st Reptcm-he!', 192fl. If RO, may J know why the d{'('IAl'lltion "-/IR heinl( ""Iwd from men who were appointed hefore Hl27?
The HOIlOvable Sir Kuhammad zatrunab KhaD: The declarutioll has been asked for only from peoplE' who ,",'ere appointp(l on or Rfter tlw 22nd August, 1927.
Mr. LalchaDd Ba'falra1: But, according to the or(lt1rS, aR stilted ill purt (a) of thiR question, the declaration hnd to \w tukE'1I from thm\(' who ,,"prp appointed after the 1st April, 1928.
The HOIlOurable Sir Muhammad ZaIrallah Khan: No. The declaration was taken from those who were appointed on or after the 22nd August, ]927. inasmuch as new leave rules were in contempllltion then, nud it WIIS considered os a precllution that· Ruch a declaration should hp ohtllinpd •. 80' thnt, when the tiE'\\" lenve rul.,,; werc npp1if'rl. ' , ~' ,,11011111 hnvp a grievoDC'c that they had no wamilll( thnt it WIlS g"oing \.0 ht' IlJlPIif'd to them.
2084 LEGISLATIVE ASSBM8Lyt [9TH ~ R 1936.
1Ir. LalchaDd .a.&lAt: May· I know· whether those ordM WeN or were not in effect?
The Honourable SIr Muhammad Zafru11&h Khan: They were enforced a:4uinst all tholJe (·nteg011es of IItnff from whom this dednrntion Will! taken.
Lleut.-Oolonel Sir Ilenry Gidney: Will the Honourable Member inform the House whether or not, when these new rules were started, they referred to all those employees who were engaged after 1928 and not thost' ",;ho were ~n~ t nft"r 1027? In other words, did tht\v or did they not have retrospective effect for one yea!"?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah DaD: Although they were f.·llforc",d Oil cI:n1ltin ,i'ltel', thc.v were made applicable t,o· certain clltegol'ies of staff from whom a declaration had been taken from a certain date in 1927.
Lleut.-OoloDel Sir Henry Gidney: In view of the fact that it is the practice of the Government of India, in recent years, not to give retros-pective effect to advantages such as increased pay, etc., why is it that the Government of India make an exception and have retrospective ~.
in rf'gard to disadvantages?
The HODourable Sir Muhammad Zalrullah Khan: For the simple reason that when a change is contemplated,-and of recent years several changes haw' been introduced which may be more restrict,ive of the privileges pre-yiollsl;v enjoyed,-it is It precaution and n neee!'lS!1I';V pl'eeulItion Cilllt the staff who are being employed then should be warned that when t.he IIPW rules come into force they would be suhjeeted to t.hORP ruleR.
Lieut.-Oolonel Sir Henry Gidney: (lnl' 1lIfll'(' qllP.,.tioll. Sir, Is it or i;; it. lIot. 11 fact that those employees who wert' recruited in 1927 were noyer illformed' thab in 1928, they would suffer 1111 theRP di!'llldvantllges? If t.he Ilnswer is in the affirm'l\t4ve, I aRk the Government of Tndin. is it fuir that they should do ~
The HODourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah lOlan: Part (11) of the ques-tion FIll.'"" that. declarations were taken from people who were empolyed from the 22nd August, 1927. One part of the grievance is, why did you st.art taking declarations from them, and the other is, why did :V0U not warll them? T t.hink the criticism iR ont. a t,o ~ ,
RBVISION OF THB PAY OF CLERKS ON THE NORTH WESTERN RA1LWAY.
100tt "'Mr. LalchaDd .a~~ a (8) Is it 11 fact that the nw'{imuln sal.r1r,\' of ~ I for cleri('1l1 I!taft, eithp.r tft stations or in officeR on the North Wf'sttarn Railway il'1 Rs. 6O?
(b) Is it 11 fact that the Rnilway Board ~a the All-India Railw8ymen's Federation to understand in Hl80, that the Railwav AdministratioDs had been asked to invest.igate into thl:' scales of a~' of subordinate staft on the TlailWR.vB. who lI"ually ros(' to RB. too }It'r menRem, with a view to improve th,.m? If so, what W.'lS t.he JesuIt of the said investigations?
QUJ:STIONS AND ANSWBRS.
! (C) Is it a fact that the Agent, North-Western Railway. vide his letter No. SOl-E.jM, dated the 22nd February, 1930, to the address of the Secrettlry, Railway Hoard, sRid that the maxima of th'l scales of grade r in ('ffices nnd stRtions. ('te., on the North Western Hiailw8Y, ceased at a rat,e of pay t.hAt was unduly poor remuneration for services' rendered?
(d) Is it II fllct that th(' Nllrth Western HA.ilway IldminiRtration sug-gested in that letter th&t grades I and II be amalgamated without any 'dds,\'? If so, wMt action did the RailwH.v Board take or propose to tak£> in t ~ matter? If none, wh.v not?
(e) Is it II fact that the maxima in the sister d9partments for lower elass of clerks is above Rs. 60, for instance in the Postal Department it if' Rs. 140 and for the Branch Postmasters who a ~ recruited from amongllt the inferior staff, the maximum of the lower grade is Rs. 9O? If so, do Government propose to amalgamnt,e grades I and II, for clerical staff on thtl North t~ Rail WRY to nJ10w It clerk in ofneps and statiolls to ris(! at least to Rs. 9O? If not'. why not?
(f) Te: it II filet thAt the Chif'f Account,s Offi('('r, North Western RlIoilwtl.\, Lahorc, vide his Staff Order No.6, dated the 4th Janllary, 1981S, has amal-~ t ">Tade,, I I find III for the e\(,I'iclI! gtllff under his control, thus intro· ducing u combined scale of pay for the lower grade eletD, 'Oi •. , Rs. 41')-4-8O-5-90? Tf ro, why are the employees of the same Railway under the ;'ontrol of the North West,ern HAilwn:v Agency treated difft'renf.ly ·frotn AccountS' clerks? '
(r.) Is it n filet. th/It fi large min\bfu. :ofeiirplo;\.ees 'in the North Weiltern Hailwav subordinate clerical service retire on Rs. 60 for want of vacanoles in the' highel' ,grades? If not, will o . ~nt , ~a tat the figures of the Clerical -staff who retired during' th.f1ast five' yeartl, and the class iA which they huppened to be prior to their retirement?
TheJloDourable Sir Kuhammad Zafrullah Khan: (a) Yes, except in the Accounts Department.
(b) Presumably the HonoUrable Memb(lr' is "referring to the 'statement nUlde hy Mr. HllymAn appeAring on page 76 of the proceedings of the first half-yearly meeting between the Railway Board. and the .AJI-IndiaRail-waymen's Federation in June, 1980, a copy of -wbiqll is in the Library of the House. If so, I would refer him to the opening sentence of his remarks wbicb l'eads as follows:
"I. wiah that in lilly reply I give you YOI1 on'~ try to hind me down be<-aulI8 odilflcultiea a"is!' sometime8 which we cannllt foreaee."
Subsequent totbis discussion, as a result of the fall in earnings and the necessitly for curtailment of expenses, the general question of the wage standards was exaQlined as a whole, with the result that the revised scales ·of pay were introduced.
(e) and (d). Govpmment are not prepared to disclose the '('on tents of t:be dOCUDlents referred to which are intended purely for departmental liRe.
(e) As regards the flrst part, the duties performed by sta.ff in the Postal Department are entirely different from those perfm-med by railway &taB and Governmenb are not prepa1'8d to adopt the BeRles of pay of the Poe tal Dp-'Partment for railway employees.
2086 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. [9TH MAHeU 1936.
As regards the rest the reply is in the nega.tive. Government do not o ,~ t.hat the BmlllglllIlntioll oj' the two grudes referrerl to is justified.
The numher of posts in the higher of the two ~ a is. sllfficient for nOl"-111111 grade to grade promotion on t,he occurrence of vacancies.
(f) Heply to the first purt ill ill the affirmutivl'. As regards the latter part the scales for the subordinate clerical staff in the Accounts Offices have always differed from those of the other d·epartments on the Nort,h Western Railway because the rltlties lire entirely different.
(g) GoverIllllcrit hay!' 11f) illfOl"lllUtioll lind do not propose to collect it.
Kr. LalchaDd lIavalra1: May I know from the Honourable Member, whether these luwer subordina.tes, whose maximum pay is only Rs. 60 a month, start on Rs. 20 or 25 a month and retire after thirtIY year!' on Rs. 60 only?
The ]lonourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah lthan: Tf til(' IlIlIximuJn is Rs. 60 and they are not appointed to anything else with a bet,ter pay, t.he inference follows.
Kr. Lalchand lfavalral: May I know from the Honourable Member whether it is fnir or not to n a ~a t at, least grades 1 Bnd 2 to give them a little lift? .
The Honourable Sir Kullammad Zafrullall Dan: That is 11 question of suppll aod demand.
Lleat.-OoloII.el Sir HIDIJ QldDlJ: Will the Honourable Member inform this House whether there ia any other Government of India Department which gives this meagre, miserly, starvation wage of Rs.60 as retiring pay?
The Honourable Sir Kuhammad Zafrullah Khan: T have 110 detailed knowledge with regard to other departments.
Mr. Lalchand lfavalral: If it is a question of supply and demlmd, maJ I know if it is a.pplied to higher grades also where the officerR get thO\1-sands of rupees a month?
The. H.ourable Sir Kullammad Zafrullah Khan: ~ . Rir.
llNR'l'AUREU '. ~R AND ANSWEHS.
LJl:AVlI WITH PAY JI'OR INFERIOR EMPLOYEES IN THE TRANSPOllT DBPART-jdENT ON THE GREAT TNDIAN P ~ o . RAILWAY.
:?4!l. Kr. K ••• Joshi: (II) Til it n fact thill- no inferior e-mployeE' in the Transport Department on the Great Indian Peninsula Railway waR granted leave with pay aHer the retrenchment of 19SO?
(b) Ts it, n faet t.hnt many of tht-lle ptnployelis were getting leave with pny before the retrenchment of 1980',1
UNSTARRBD QUESTIONS AJfD ANSWERS. 2081'
(c) Is it a fact that under thE' ~ n t Leave Rules, no inferior emrloyee on. the Great Indil.ln Peninsula Railway ran be granted leave with pay and that this is due to the inad€'quacy of leave resel'ves?
(d) If the reply to part (c) be in the affirllllltive, are Government prepared to arrange for Il sufficient number of inferior employees us a leave reserve on the Great Indian Peninsula Ra ~ so us to farilitate the-obtaining of leave wit.hpay by such employees? If Ilut, whv not?
The . EODOUrable Sir Muhammad Zafrallab Khan: (u) No. (b) Yes. (c) No. (d) Does not. arise.
COMPOSI'1'ION Oil' THE PilBSONNlDL Oil' THB INDIAN CUSTOMS DBPABTHBNT AT' THE VARIOUS PORTS.
244. III. Muhammad Alhar .All: Will Government lay on the table a·. statement showing information regarding the composition of the personnel of the Indian Customs Department at the various ports in a ta;bular form UB below?
Bombay. Karachi. C .. lcutta. Madru. ~on.
~ Provinoe. Province! Provinoe. ProviDoel Provo to .. hieh towhiob to wbioh towblob to"bloh
they t ~ ci belung. ci belong. ci Z Z Z
they the,. th.,. belong. ci beloJl8. ci beloDi.
Z Z - - - -1. SUJ?llrior 8er.
VlOt'.
2. Apprailer.
3. Examining om· CfII'II.
4. Preventive OIB· eel'll. ..
5. Appz:t"utice Af' pralltlfl.
6. Apprentioe Exa· mining Offioer •.
7. Other Appoint· ment..
III. A. E. Lloy.d: The information is not available and cannot he com· piled without a degree of labour and expense which iK not ~on . ' to be justified.
~ ' ~'B a B l\"8Sl1J(BLY. [9TH MARCH 1986.
IINTBODUCTION OJ' NBW RULBS BEGABDING MEDICAL E:UJlllUTIOJl' OJ' R,AIL· W 4Y filT41'1' WHO WEBE NOT B:U.HINJID IN NIGJI'T VI8IOJl' TBsT PBIOB 'l'O 1930.
20., Mr. It. L. 1Jauba,: (a) Is jt a fact that new rules, regarding 'medical examination of Railway staR who were not examined in night 'vision test prior to 1930, were introduced in that year?
(b) Is it a fact tba.t after a strenuous agitation by the Carriage and "'Wllgon staff, Fitters staff and the Engineering gang staff, the appli. 'cability of these 'niles was Wi£h'hela 'in their case?
(c) Is it a fact ~ t a good number of sta.ff, in whose case t.bese rules have been applied, ha.ve been discharged and demoted due to the
,night vision test, which was not the case before 19$0?
'l"be, BOD01Uabll Sir Kahammaa Z&Irallah Klwl: (a) New regulations 'for the medicRl 'examination of candidates and employees, etc., were intro. 'aueed by the Railway Board in .June, 193(). I presume the Honourable Member is referring to tihe North Western Railway. If so, Government are infonned tha.t on tbe North Western Railway the revised rules were introduced from the 2nd February, 19..!H. Prior to the introduction of t,he-At· rule!!, the ~R. ",:ere, unner thf, mlcs th('n in fore('. required to be a ~ m.umined but Government uniferstand that due to an oversight certain ItailwllY employees were not sent for medical eXRmination.
(h) AB a result of repres£'ntations, the C'lnsl!ificRtion of certRin Carriage 'and WlIgon gtnffmld Locomotive Atllff, inchld'ing flt,ters, WIlS modified.
(c) o ~ n nt a no information and its collection will involve 1111 'amount of labour' and expense not commensurate with the results likely t.o be achieved.
LIQUOR LIOENOES IN DELHI AND OLD DELBI.
246. Sarclar StAt Singh: (a) Will Government be pleased to state the 'number of liquor licences in (1) Delhi, and (2) Old Delhi in tho;. years 1981, 1982, 1983, 'f984 and 1985?
(b) How many of tnem we", licences for the 881e of foreign ~, and 'bow many for the country liquor?
(c) What is the inorease in population of Delhi and New Delhi in the '~' 1931.1982, 'lPSS, '19!J4 Rnd 19351
" (d) What 'are t ~ grounas wbich justify the increase in such licence.? (e) Do Government propose to increase these licences in the year 198e?
"n 110, how many BDd on wbat grounds? (f) AEe Government aware that the increase of n ~ o liquor shops
"hilS raised great apprebeniion amongst temperance workers? (g) Did, Government 'consult any public body, such as local bodies and
temperance societi", before increasing this number? If not do Govern· 'ment now propose 'to consult them?
Mr. A. B. LlO)'il: (a) and (b) A statement is laid" on the ta.bl£'. (c) Statistics ate not available except in yeBl'll when " cenBUB is taken, (d) The growth of, populiltion, especially in New Delhl. :where a large
proport.ion of ~ inhabitants are r;cous'tomed to oonsume foreign liquor.
UN8TARRBb Q0E8'rION8· AND "ANSWBRS.
(e) The Dumber of lieenaea ia: Dotfbed: alid fresh applloatioDa an COD-sidered OD their merita. '
(I) No complaintl in regard to the iDcreaae int.he Dumber: of foreign liquor licenl1f's have been received from t-emperanee worken.
(g) Local bodies are coDsulted before fresh -licensee a.regran1i8d exoep. in the case of licenses for canteeDs which" are tp'aDted on the recOmmenda-tion of the Military authorities coDcerned.
Bra ..... ,., ellouMg III_ ,,-.her oj Liqvor Lieertcu f"G""" ,ill DelA' ad NCfIJ Dill. ~ IAe ~ . 1131 to 1911.
1111. It31. leiS. 1984. 1931S. t II'Ol'rign Liquol' • 118 '116 84 'III SI Delhi • Country LiquC'l' • 10 10 10 10 10
Total '8 '6 ., 41 4J )
{1I'f'l'dlP" LiquC'1' . 18 )8 18 18 • XewDelhi • Cc.untry LiquCl' • I 1 I :. I Total III 19 19 I_ I.
FBAUD CASE DETECTED IN TUB PBBP B ' ' ~''' ('lUBGllfG 0:1' GOODS HANDLING BILLS AT LaoBE GOODS OnICli.
247. BalUda Bau Baj: (a) Ia it a fact' t t t~ aeriOua fl'aud case was detected in the preparatioD and charging of pda' handling billa :at Lahore Goods ornce againRt (}oodll Supervisor in December 1984?
(b) If so, will Government be pleased to state what action has so fllr 8f.'en taken against the Goods Supervisor? ' '
(c) If the reply to part (b) be in the negative, what i. the NalOn?, (d) Is it a fact that the said Goods Supervisor has been transferred t4)
Karachi? ' ' (e) Is it a fact that the transfer orders were iuued in October 19M? (f) Is it a fact. that the \)rders were not 'complied with up to January.
1986? (g) Is it n fact that lOme of the Railway ofHcera are putting UDn8ceaaary
hindernnce, in the eXElcutilln of his tmnflfp.r-? ' (h) If the replies to parts (I) Bnd (g) bp. in the ofHrmAtive, what actioD
dc. Government propose to take against the above Goods Supervisor ancJ ,the officers concerned? .
(i) Are Govemment aware that his preaence at Lnflore Good, office ia detrimental to the public, as well as to the intereita of the Railway Department? ' ' .' , (j) Is it a fact that another case has been detected at tli .. 'LafJore Gooda oftice in connection with ~ , mep amongst a 1iQ of van porieraem-ployed under this ~ , ,, ~ o . ~ o. ~n u .. ~ ·as X";iportel'll Rnd never worked WIth any 'Van, 'trBID, but ... ere emplo;ved, as ~ ~ a t of the Goods Supervisor Rnd BOrne otber Rallwny o , ~ '
(k) If the replv to part en be in the . t ~ ,. wHl, QQyernment be plf"ftlU'd to aute if they are prepared to o ~ ~nan . a a~,t ~ oflicials? '..:. .".'..
[9TH MARCH 198ts.
. The B ' a ~~, ,.~ Muhammad ZafnIUah 'Daa: Goverameilt are n o n ~a 11.* f6tlows:
(a).. '(td ,~ t ,,(i), :}fo" ;' ", (b). (c), (b) .~ (.k). :,1>0 not arise. (d) Ilnq,,\B}. ~. (f) :'l'he .transfer onlered in 'October was postponed. (j) It WRS found on enquiry that some van porters were being used
as peons-the necessity for which wa& ...aubsequently established. It was not proved that Rny of them were l1F;ed as. personal servants.
LEAVE AND PENSION oFllrLtTABY EMPLOYEES INVALIDED DURING THE GUAT WAR.
~. "Ball OhaudhUl')' Muhammad Ismail lDwl: (a) Will Government ba pleased to state whether their replies to the following questions in tbe Assembly still stand as regards civil otlic'ers and subordinates who contract,ed disesseR during 1914-18 on Field Service and retired on a pay of Rs. 200 per meDgem n~ over ~n ~ on account of thoBe diseases? . (b) if Government are not now prepared to act on their replies to the questions referred to, will Government be pleased to give a fresh and ('oDlpiete raply to t a ~ of the qU(l<:tions referred to below:
fi)queationNo. ilJ92.iA, ~t. the 4th September, 1988; (ii) question No. 592·B, dated the 4th September, 1933; ~ questiun No. 1182-A, (lnted the 27th November, 1988;
(iv)qu8stion <No. 329, dat.ecl the 2nd March, 1984; and (v) question' No'. SM, dated the 2nd March, 1984?
Xr. Q. Bo. ,W. TotteDbam: (a) Yes. (b.),Doea no\ mae.
P ' t ' B~ Q[VB:N TO IKOHN SaIlULA-BoS IN THB ABCRJBOLOGICAL DBPAR'l'HD'r P)& a~t IN EXCAVATION AND EXPLORATION OJ' ANCIENT INDIAN SITES. .
249. lIIr, O. 5. Muthuranga Mudallar: (n) Are adequate facilities given to ~n .an scholars in -the o o~ , a Department to get them-.lves trained in excavation and exploration of ancient Indian sites?
(b) Will Government. plo,ce on the tableR. list of the 8cholam 80 far trainE'd?
(c) 1s the flfllctioe or lriving Buch t,rRining to 1ndian I!cholRm continued at present? If not, when was it stopped ? What are the reasons for the disooriMnuanoe of sooh a practice?
(d) Are Government· prepared to consider the advisability of reviving 8uch B 8cheme?
str GMa a ~ .,. ~~ (n) lind. (c). Adenuate facilitiell were provided for ttniriing .t ta ~ Jndian ~ o a in the ArchteOlogical'Deparlment in e"cnvation work until ~~., when such training was Rtopped as a measure of retrenobment. ' " .
(b) t t. ~n a ~ '~ tbe 't~ . ~ Yea', when the fl'D-ds pennit.
VN8TARKBD QUBHTION8 AND AN8WB&8 •
........,., .,..,., [MiGn ScAoI4r. wain.tI,,, a:ccavaticm work ~ eM n o o ~ Dfpw'. , .. " ... "'.
1. Bai Babaelur Da,.. Ram SahDi (late Director GeDeraI 0' Archeolol)'). ,
lB. Late Mr. V. Nate. J.iyyar 3. Mr. K. N. Dikahit •
6. Mr. M. B. Garde
II. Mr. Mohd. Hamid Kuraiabi
7. RaiSahibM. Ghosh 8. Mr. M. S. Vat..
9. Mr. H. L. Sriv .. tava
IDeputed by .8 10. Mr. N. G. Majumdar VardUdra :Research Society for tI'ainin,. Do. by iCMhm.r 11. Mr. B. C. Kak. State. Do. Hyderabad 12. Mr.'Syed YusaI. State. ·DO. ae,lon GoV.{18. S. Pranavitani. ernmeat. 1'. J. C. R. Ja,)IIIIW'iI •.
.ApP.""ntioea retrench· ' 16. Mr. K. G. G08Wami. eo boforethe oo .~ . Mr. L. Narallimhaohar. pltltion of their 17. Mr. M. A. Rahim. "1'II1II. 18. Mr. S. 8. Barkar.
(late SUp8riutendrut). . . (Deputy J.)irector Qeaaralol Archleolugy ).
(late AIaii;\aut SuperiDten-clem).
(BupeIintendent oI Archeo· logy, Ow.lior). ' (Bupuint4:n08nt, J'roDtieJo (;ircle).
(Curat.or, Patn. Muaeum). (Superintendent, "'_tern (;iroIe).
• (AaaiBtaQt BuperilJteDdeQt. Central Inaia aDd :Raj. putaDa). .
(8",. eriDteD.:Ient, Inc:Uu Ma· .Iom).
PBoVISION 01' SAFBGUAlIDS IN GlUNTING LICBNCBS TO PRIVATB AsSOCIATiOn
OB BODIBS TO OABBY ON EXOAVATION AT SPEClnO SITES. '
250. Kr. O .•. Kuthman,. Mudal1ar: Will Government state whether in granting licences to private nssooiutions or bodies to curry on excavation .at specific sites, adequate safeguards are provided, inSilting ou luch aladJ -eiations or bodies maintlliniol.l a dnily field record of the excavations. ;8od DOting the circumstances of each discover.y'} If not., do Government-propose to 'inaist on this tl'B Il cOl)dition precedent to grunting the required 1icenlle?
Sir GIrI& Shwar BaJpal: Under the conditions fol' the Immt. of licences for t o o~ exco.vl\tion, privatF· individuals nnd bodies are 'l'equired '00 ma'ke such phot.ogrnphll and other records Rnd nl'chiter·,tllrnl plans of (hp . :t1'f'1l in res]>p('t, of whiet. the licence is llPlct and of aDS antiquit;ies foun(l therein AS ma," he ~ th(' Director Of-nern) 0' Archll!olor.:v '
PDMISSJON SOUGHT BY THE CAMBRIOOE-YALB EXPEDITION TO VISIT PI.ACES OF
AaOU&OLOGICAL OR Pu·BlflToRlc IMPoRTANCE, .. '
HI. ~ o .•. K1lULar&1lf& M1IdaUar: (a) Will Govemment he "IpARfid to .~ on the table a list of place. of arohlOO1Q¢.cal or of prehistoric 'importnnce to visit. and +0 examine which penm .. :on WAR IIIn""J,+ for by the Cambriqe-Ya1a npedition or any member or members thereof?
. bt·
J.BGJ8LATIVB A88BKBLY • . ",:
(b) Was the permission aaked for granted? (c) What is the kind of work that this expedition or any ~ . or-
members thereof. arE' doing in these places? (d) Have they discovered anything of 'importance in these a ~
If so. where are those antiquities? Have they been removed out of' Ilidia or are they still here? '
(e) Do Government propose to see to it that they are allowed to take if they ~ant. only such finds as are in duplicate? • , (f) Did the officers of the Archlllological Survey visit the places which
the members of the above expedition are visiting? Did they make an exhaustive survey of those sites? If not, why not?
(g) Is it a fact that some of the members visited Madras recently for collecting prehistoric implements? Were thev "ble to niscover any ~ If so, do Government propose' to makE' sure that" these finds are retained in India?
(h) Did the Superintendent. 'ArchlllOlogical Survey, visit the places: where the members of the expedition had gone. and report to the-Director General. ' ~ t o o a Survey, as to the antiquities and the-need for their acquisition?
Sir Girla Shankar Bafpal: (a) and (h). The Expedition conduct'3d a reconnaissance survey in the Punjab, the North·West Frontier Province. the l\Iadms Presidency anti Kashmir with the permillsion of the Govern-ment of India and thr Kashmir Durbar. '
(c) A &enr('h for R~ remains of early man and the priml.\t.ea and thp. dE'terminntion of the !!,cological epochll of North·Wt"At Indi!!..
(d) They collected a nUDlbel' of stone artifacts besides fossils, bones. f'tc •• and fragment!! of pottery. ~ Htone iUlplementll have becn tQkeD to Cambridge where they h!lve been atudiefl by experts and t.he results will be worked out by comparison wit.h other specimens from all over the world. The ott ~o fragments have been retained in India..
(e) Go"emment have talmn sterR to se('uJ'e for India a full share of the artit'lell collectEld bv the Expedition.
(f) and (h). All the objet't of the Expedition was more akin to thO!) work of the Ileolo,eicltl rather th,," the Rl'('hn-ololri(,RI survey, a representB. "ive of the Gpolorrieal Sur,'ev accompanied it. J<'or this reason the Superiu. t£.nrlent, 'Archreololrical Surve.'1. did not visit the plaCeR in question or make a report tc thp. ~to Glnersl of Archreology in Tndia.
(g) Yes. Durin${ their tour in the ~ aR Prt'sidconcy, t.he memberf of the EXlleditinn collel,ted a large Dumber Ilf prp.hilltoric implements and !'Ileps h,ive hpe'n tnkpn to secure lutlir.ient numbers of each variety of ~ B inlplementa for India.
APPOINTMlINT OJ' A. CIvILIA.N CoN8ULTING ABOIIlTBC'l' .&.'1' QUK'l'T'&'.
~ . JIr. o .• ~ Kuthuraq& K1lda1lar: Will Government be pleased to atate :
(a) whether the R~ t of Rtat-e in (1onnoil invited h ... · advflrtise· f'\pnt, ",..",JjpAtions fOr the appointmeDt of a eivilian B ~ ing Architect; ,
' .. : UNSTAIlRBD QUBSTIONS AND ANSWERS .
. ,~~ .~~~~ . the ~ appointment-was in ~on~' t o~' with . ~ . .. military englil¥riIig iervices in India in connection with t ~
reconstruction of Quetta; {c) ~ t t ~ ~ t t stipulated that t ~ candidate muat
be British and a member of the Roval Institute of British'. ~ t t ; • .
~ t this stipulation has led to protests from the Incorporat-, ed ASFIociation of t ~t !\nd Surve"ors and the Institute"
. '. .of· Regilltered ArchitE'cts: . 1(8) whether the protestw89 made on the ground that lIelection from!'
one body would be most invidious; . ·(f) whether qU81ified candid.l-'t.es in India are not available; .(g)whBt. they have done., Or .propose to do, in the matter; and (h) whether tht:y arE' prepRred to reconsider their attitude in the.
tt ~
'lIlr Aubre, •• tcalle: (a) YCA ..
,(b) Yell. (c), (d) and (Po). The qovernIDE'nt of India have no informlltiun. (f) Enquiries showed that it was likely to be considerably Dlore
,economi('al to rll('rl.lit II maTI from England on a regular monthly salary, than to pny t.he feE'R of any of t.he architects in t,his country who PM a~ the requisite qUll.lificat·ions.
(g) Government propose to take no action. (h) No.
PBooEBDS P'BOII( AUCTION OJ!' STRUCTURAL MATBRI,AL I.N QUE'ITA.
253. 1Ir. O .•. lIuthuraDJa Mud.liar: Will Government be pJeaSfld' >toO statl:!.:
(a) whether they have agreed to repay to land·lords, by way .of relief from the Fund. the proceeds from auction of structural
. material in Quetta; and (b) why they hRve come to this decision?
Slr Aubrey Ketcalfe: The Honourable M.ember'F1 attention is int'ited ·to the remarks on the sub.iE'ct contained in the Government of India'. jpress l-'Ommuniqw!o, dated the 28rd Jo.nuary, 1986 (Copy attached) .
. (JOf/r ~ Pru, C,,,,,,,,urliqui tlat:d !I,d lanuary, 11186.
It will be remembered that. in the n~ announcement publi,bed by the Govern· . ment. of India with reprd to their policy at. Quel ... , it WM .'ed that. a BeDior ·OftIeer 01 the Polltiea1 Depariment had bf'811 pOIfAd to QueUa witb iutruction. to 411'paize the operation. of 8a1va. and Clearance in nch a manner .. he ~' ·4lOII8ider 8-'7 for more rapid and efficient propel&. ThAt Ofticer b.. now ll.-la obarp at Qaetta for aevera! weeb and .. the renlt of bit in,..tI ... tion. on the ~ _ put. forward C'enam PI'OpOIIat. for' the _lideration of the Government. fII badla. After perIOD&l di_.ion with him ftrioaa deoiaiOlll ha... .... taka widell are now pabli.daed for j(eIlen.l informat.ioa.
LBOISI.ATJVE ASSBllBLY. [9TH ]tABCH ~~
In the flret pl_ it haa been decided that Ward. NOl. 10, 11, 18 and 19 or which t·he aalvage has already been I!OIDpleted shquld be .cleared immediately and' 'Opened for temporary reside". by former 'fnhabHantl.of Quetta who desire again to-take up their residence in Quetta and to re·.tart their bnain-. Such persons will' be permitted to build temporary: huts, so far as possible, on their .own aites and allD-lease o ~ aitea for residence by other periODs whOle land has not yet been cli!anld: No-actual relidence in these Wardl will be permitted until tbe remainintt and adjoining Warda have heen completely aalvaged and all corpses removed; but 1& is confidenll,..· expected that this operation will be comple'ed a~ l88at by the end of Marcb, 1936. In other Ward. immediately after wvage and clearance hu taken place ait_ will be allot.ted to the original ownera in I!O far al thd may be poaaible baving reord to the' necessity. for widening certain atreeta and lanea to provide all far as poaBible against similar losl ,f life in CRse of another earthquake. For the present only buildinRI of • temporary cbarsc;er will be permitted, but ownere will be allowed to erect permanent. buildinlfll on thoir oril!;innl sitea al BOOn &8 a Building Code haa been prepared anel" plans of buildinV;R considered technically proof against earthquake .hockll have beeEt-devised and I\pproved. The Government of India have allo reconafdered the ~' previously announced thRt roll atructural material of collapsed buildinas would be· taken into the cua;ody of Government and dispoped of at their discretion. In vieW" of repre8entationl now put forward, it appears that it is practicable to permit the' greater part of this structural malerial to be removed hy the owners themselves 1.· the courle of Ralvav" arod clearance and to he USf'd in the conatnl('tion of temporary buildinlll for immediate occupation. The Officer in Charll;e h8s therE'fore heAD given diRcre+ion to makE' arranllements on those lines. which it is hoped will not only lrive' conRid .. rahl" relief t.o ~ o~ ' who have lost their o ~ bv r8atlOn of the earthquake, but will alllO facilitate alld expedite t·he work of clearance. Arranl!;ements are also·
n~ made to e.t.ahlish special Canna of J'uoHce to rlpal with R~ . ari.;ull Ollt of-th" I'lLrthollake. TheRe "onrb will work under the provisions of the British BaluchiBta.· Civil Justice Reaulation and in order to minimi:r:e the expense caused to the partiee; by Buch litigation, orders will be PRased by the Local Administration providing for a reduced seale of o ~ Fees in all luch caBes.
CHARGE 01' PmuURY AGAINST TIlB BUB·REGISTRAR 01' Dmm. 2M. 111'. Gbanutam Singh Gupta: (a) Has the sttention of Govern-·
ment. been drawn to a r"'port pubH .. hrd in the Dai111 Tei. on page t~ of its iSllue dated t.h., 14t·h Deeember, H)S!', rontaining extracts from the judg-ment of Mr. David Fa17.1I1din, 1\ D",lhi Rub·judge, making serious charge of.l)('rjury against the Sub.Registrar of Delhi?
(b) Are Government aware that the findings of the saId ('ourt h .. ve-excited much local comment?
(c) Will Government, state whnt steps; if any, have been taken by them against the Sub· Registrar concerned?
(d) If nothing has been done so far, are Government prepared to order-an early inquiry and to suspend the Suh·Regiiltrar concerned till the in-· Yest,igation is complete?
The JlODourabl. SIr BtlU'J arllk: (8) Y ('s. .p., "
·f}.) Govel'nmE'nt hl\w no infol'tn"tion lind have t;een. o o n~ nt. exCE:ptl. tb"t'referred to in part (It) of the queRt.ion . . . {(\) Rnd (Il). I nm unable to sa" am-thinS! as I undentand tbat th .. ~ is &till .ub ;Ildice, an appeal from the Sub.Judge'" OPder' having beaD flied before the District and Sessions Judge. .
ONI3.TAIUlBD Qt7IISTlON8 AND ANSWEllK.
~ JIDrrs 01" MVlUU SPIIOIAL BLACE P.1lW'l' AJlD JD80:H .ADo , .' NICHOLSOJl'S BLAo.: BJlAXltL PAINT;' '11 'j'.'
2.1li. Mr. B. B. Varma: (Il) Will Government' be ' ~a to stat& whether it is a fact that IIOme time in the latter part of 19M, at'in thtt l.eginning of 1985, a Committee consisting of Railwav Officera·and Il reprt:-f'I'!'lt!!tive of the Indian Stores Depllol'tment, with Diwllll Babadur B. n. Singl" late Agent of the Eastern Benglll Railway 6S President, was formed in ~ t.) examine I.hf' relative merits of Muraka. Specint Mlack Paint, a cheaper indigenous product, and Jenson and Nicholson's Black Enamel PHi.tlt,s foreign product. for painting Railway wagon a .,
(b) If thl' ropl.' to part (a) Ite in the affirmative, ""iII Oc;vernment be M~ to 8tllte if the Committee had 8ubm;tted ROY l",port, "t'commending the use of ont' 0'.' the othAr paint, for considE;ration boY Gov.ernment"
(c) If the reply to pnrt (b) be in the a~ , will o~ n nt be ' ~ n to sttlte th,) Iluture of the recommendation mnrIe bv t ,~ ,Committee and whether . the same conforms with the principle laid' ~o n bv Clovern: ment to the effect t·hut in the matt.er ofpurehase '.>f t . ~ 1i!r public ser.
~ .. !'\, prefofE'nnc ... holllr) he given to ind:genous articles. if thev are found sufficientJy good for the purpose" H not, why not.? '
The Honourable Sir lIahammad Zafrullah KhaD: (a) Yea, except in I!()' nllwh thnt the .Temmn nnd Nicholson blll!:k paint considered by the Com. mittee was, 8S far 8S Government is Bware, RIIIO an indigenous product&· and lower in pri('c per gallon.
(b) No.
(0) Does not ariAe.
RJIOBUITJlBliT 01' ONE PAB'l'ICULAR ('O)fJdUNlTY OJl'J'HE EA8'JJ!JlJI IbJlQAL RAILWAY •.
25ft Mr. B. B. Vvma: (n) lA 'it a fRet that the Railway Board haa iBBut'd to the Agent, Eflst.f'rn Hengul Railway, orderA to the eRpct that no, .ppoint1T!ent must be made ~ any communit:v except one part:icuillr' community, until the 45 per cent, quota fixed for that commucrity, 80 far as the Eastern Bengal Railway is concerned, is reached?
{b) If the answer to part (8) be in the affirmative, will" Govllnimetlt b .. plensed to state if such orders have heen iss\Jed toO other ·}..oealGovern-ments? 1£ so, Gre G.>vernraent prepared to cotisJdt>.J' the;dci.irabiUty ·l,t revising their orders in special and exceptional cascs?
'1'he HODOv&b1e Sir Muhammad Za1rultah DaD; (II) TIle 1IIP1y is in. tb. ntgl\tive.
(h) The Railway Bo~ have D9t.i88Ue<\. RDy .. ~ . ' ' to. ""f Eastem DeUftnl Railway or' any otbt'1J Railwa.v· t at. ~' of 8.1Jy.,one.p"1Q t'OIDmunih "hould only he appoiDkd. The·,I ........ ,.. .... .,. th""'fIJI8St.ioa: doos not ariMo ;. If· ", ,~. ,,'. .... .,,:..: :"; I /!'
~ B 4SSBMBLY. , t9TH MARCH 1988.
~ B~. OI'.ONa P.om:t7t7LAB COMIIUMTY Olf TmD Eu'l'BBifUUo"';: RAILWAY. .
257. Mr •. B. B. Varma: WiU Government be a~ to state: (a) ~ t . it ia a fact that on the Eaatern Bengal Railway, SODa
. Of. ~ , . a ~ o o , . having requisite qualifications for .. n ~t Jobs a!ld bavmg been aelect!d, aa ,IIpproved candi-datea by the Railway Staff Selection Committee for future a o t ~nta, are not given preference over outbiders in the
.. ' ntt '~ c£ filling up any vacancy, n n~ tt' ,.o n~ lenve 'Vacancies, on the ground that luch vacancies have beEm kept "" o ~ plCserve for members of a jlilrtlclIl&.r community under the orders of the Railway Board;
(b) whether it is a fact that sons of railway t'mployees, who "ra approved an~ at and who ~ working against temporary leave va.canCle9, have been discharged to make room for melllbers <..f a particular community; I!.nd
(c) if the replies to part, (a) and (b) be in the affirmative, the renson which prompted the Railway BOlird to issue Buch orders to the Eastern Bengal Railway Administration?
"l'he Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: (n) 'l'ht' pbeing of Il candidnte's nnnle on the list of approved cHnc1idntes does not conMtituto a promise of cmployment. 'flIP nuilway Board hAve not isslIcd unv orders that Bl1 vacanciea ~ o hE' resorved for members of nn,-particular OOJII-~~. -
(h) The reply ill in t.he negntive.
(c) In view of my reply to pllrte (s) and (b) this dolo .. not arise.
ABTlOLlI ....... m TlDI B.Hr,WAY LA ROUB ENTITLED II RELIEVING ALLoWAlfCB '1'0 TBAI'I'Io STAI'I', UNlFOBM PROBLEM AND DIFFERENTIAL TREATMENT ".
258 •. JIr. B. B. VarDl8: (a) Has the attention oJ Go\'emm".lt been drawn to an article appearing at pages 2. 8 and 4 of the Railway LabouT. for O,·toLer 19U5, published from CalcuttR, under the aURpices of the EAstern BeagRI JlRilwa,)' Indian Emplo,vees' Association. regarding Rellev-iqg Allowance to 1'raffic Staff, Uniform pr:>blem and dii'ferentit'.1 treatment? . (b) If so, will Covernment be pleRsed to state if an,l nr.l,;on h'ls been taken thereon by them? II not, why not?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zalrullah Khan: (a) Yes. (b) Governnlt'nt are informed thRt the ,~tt ' referred to have been
oonlidered by the Administration and where action was nece88ary it h'" either been taken or will be taken in due course.
ABTIOLlI 1M TaB RAILWAY LABOUR BHTITLBD II A BIBD's EYB VIEW fl.
259. Mr.B. B. Varma: (w) Will Oo"ernment be pleased to state whether their attention h&B been drawn to an article entitled .. A Bird'l iC'yll view", appearing in the Rallwtlll DabouT fOr the month of November 1985, published from Calcutta under the ausp;ces of the Eastern Bengal Ba;lway Indian Employees' Aaaociation, in which certain comments have btl,.n madereRarding nreffical aitt, eConomy in the Eleetric Department, Wllt«-Proof, Temporary Posting, Crew Staft?
UN$TARIlKD qUBS'l'.ON8 AND, AIISWBRS.
.. (b) ~. 10 •. will Govemmentbe pleased to .tate if 'any aetionbaa' bMil ..... n thereon? If not, why not'} ".:
."1'he lIDDo1lrab1e SIr Ji:UI.m";'U ZllruUah DID: (8) Yes; (b) The matters referred to aro ent.irely within the competence of'the'
.Agent to whom 8 copy of the question has been Sent forinforniat.ion and ,.uch !lction flS he ma.y consider neCf'Ri\ary. Government do not cOnsider .their intervention is neoeuary.
RBCRUITMENT TO STATE RA.ILWA.Y SUVlOE8.
260. Mr. B. B. Varma: (s) Will Government be ~ to state 'whether the Railway Board in the year 1982. accepted the o n ~ ltions made by the Royal Commission on Labour. "'ido item' 118 of tbeir report. to the effect that sons of Railway employees should have preference over outsiders in the matter of recruitment to railwayaervices. and in-.. tructed the Agents of the State-managed Railways accordingly?
(b) 1£ the reply to part (1&) be in the affirmative. will Uovernment be pleased to state whether the same policy is still followed by the Railwa, Board'} If not. why not '}
"!'he Honourable 811' KuJ1ammad Zafrullah Khan: (n) The orders iPBUE"d hy the Rn R~' Boord were to the effect· tbat the.y were aWlll"\! thut arrang(;>meJlts in f,)rce .10 State-mnnnged Hllilwnys pro"ided for ~ preference as recommended by the Royal Commission on ~a n to hf! givE"n to the sons of IiAilwny employet's, bllt thnt thev ~on thl.\l, the qUf!stion of extE'nding such preference to neRr rfllnt·iVt'1! was a matter 'to be left t.o the discret·ion of individua} Agents of RailwaYIJ.
(b) ~ reply to th€' first part. of the quest.ioD is in the affirmatiVfl and 'the latter part does not arise.
TJu.NSI'BB 01' PRoPEBTIES IN CANTONMENTS BY SALE, GUT OB MOBTOAOJl BY CIvn.uNS.
!6L Mr. Sham Lal: (a) Is it a fnct that under instructions rrom Hf!lluquartp.rB. NorthE"rn Command, the Cantonment l\oArlis havE" not'ifiell 'Ul the public that without first obtaining the permiBsion of the Government ·of India. 'Civilians cannot transfer their property b, sale. gift. or mortgage ~
(b) Is it a fact that ~n Rawalpindi Cantonment. the Cantonment "Exf'eutive Officer has refusecl to register in his tax ~ o t R the transfer of propf'rties. validly made under the provisions of the Transfer of Propert.v Act?
«(') Is it a fact that he insisliR on realising oantoDment taxes from the .transferers. although the transferees are willing to pay the same 'J
~ Is it a fact that he refuses to an~ the names of perlOns on whom P ' ~ t devolves by RUl'cessiOD or inheritance" ,
(e) Is it' a fact that in Amrit&ar the Cantonment Executive Officer hal mformed the Civil Registrar not to register transfer of properties without the sanction of Military Authorities"
(f) If the answer to the above be in the aftlrmative, what step. or .t ~ -io Government propose W tNe to .top tbi, practice?
LBGJSL4TJVB 48SBlBLY. [9TH MARCH 1986.
Mr. Q ••• .,. '1'ottellham: (a) Tht: reply is in the affinnative, in tIC> far as propertv valued at over ns. 5,000 situah'd on sites held uuder the term'!' of the General Order bv the Governor General in o~n N". 179-of 1836 are concerned. One of the conditions of tenure under that Order ill t,hat transferiJ reqllire san(·tion. 'rhe object of enforcing this conditiOJl. is to preserve the title of Government in the land. •
(b) No, Sir. (c), (d) Ilnd (e). Government have no information. (f) 'fhe matter is under cOllsideration at prE'eent.
CoNSTRUCTION OJ' QUARTERS FOR THE STAPF OJ' THE RAILWAY CLEARING AOCOUNTS OJ'ncE. DELHI.
282. Mr. 5. II . .Joshi: (a) Will Government he pleased to state whethE'l' they have selected any suitable site for the rOllstnlction of 'tum·tars for the staff of the Railway Cleariug Accounts Office. Delhi. lAS. promised in reply to starred question No. 0110 of H)35?
(b) If the answer to part (R) be in the allirmative. will Government bEf R~ to state when the worle of construction will begin?
«.) If th£: answer to part (II) be in the negative, v. hat action is being tal(eu to t;xpedite acquisition of Llny such site?
(d) Are Government aware that it 'is not easy to obtain suitable cheap ' n~ Ilccommooation in DE'lhi. And if so. are Government prepared to>
non sitler the dpRirnbility of granting some bouse rent allowance to the staff of t ~ Railway Clearing Accounts Office, until such time as the quarters-are ccnstructed?
The Jlonourable ·Sir Muhammad Za!rullah ][han: (a) A site which ap--ptlllrr. to ue su:t"hlc has been found IlIld is now under further examination.
(b) It is impossible to say wbell the wo:-k of construction will begin. Tl:e provision of funds hIlS to be considered.
(c) Does not arise. (ell Government nre IIWLlre that there is some difficulty in obtaining
Iluitlluk chElltp ~ n nccommodation in Delhi. Government are noll prepHPd to consider the grant of house-rent allowance to staR of th_ UailwlI.v CIE'aring Accounts OtJice.
UNEMPLOYMENT AJrIOlfGST SBAMEN IN BOMBA-Y.
~. Mr ••••• .J0Ibl: Will Government be pleased to state =
(0) whether they are aware of the wide-spread unemployment amongst seamen in Bombay;
,Ii' .
(b) whether it has o ~ to their knowledge tbat the Clan LiQ,e of . Steamers. which used to employ Bombay crews for years"
h",'c been replacing them by CLcutta crews f'lr BOUIC yeara. palt; .
Cr.) whElther they are aware tbRfi the Caloutt. crewtl 8N o ~ do\vn to Bombav at Company'8 expense ant!. ~. OIl, in their &hipe ill Bombay; .. ." , ..
UNSTARRBD QUBSTIONB AND ANSWJm8.
(d) whether they art! aware that .. it is a fact t,hat though the r:1tea , of Colcutta erews' wages are slightly !ese thun thoBe c.f: Bombay crews, the Company does not mat-erially rin ouy-thing, beeft\1!'1e it beol'S' t.he passage .expenses of the Calcutta. crews both ways;
(e) wbether it is. true that the National Seamen'a UnIon o~ ~ ta 11:18 made l'tlPresentationa to Government, and thell' otticeN in Bombay to use their good offices to see that the COlllP"u1 ~n Bombay crews on IIhips. ~n n~ crew'J in Domoo1'
and engages Calcutta crews on ships chschBrgmg cr()w,", m.: Cu:cutta; and
(f) whether they are prepa;:ed to use their good offices with a .vicw to getting Bombay crews their share of employment with the Clan I.ioe?
The KODO'.l1'&ble Sir Kuhammad Zatr1Jllah Dan: (a) Government l.oderst.and that the position in re"wrd to unem,ployment amongst seamen' in Bombay has improved considera.bly in recent years.
(b) :md (c). Yes, (d) Government have no information. This is obviously a matter for
the Cornr>uny concerned. (e) Yes, (I} Govenlment do not conFl;der that it would be appropriate for them,
to use their influence to maintain or e]!:tend tbe opportunities of employ-ment open to one section of Indian seamen ut the expense of another.
UNBMPLOYlIIBNT AlIONGST S&AlIEN IN BoMB~ •
. 26'. Kr .•. II • .Toab1: Will Government be pleased to state: (a) whpther it has com£' to thoir knowledge that. about four to.
five thousand Bombav seamen of the saloon section have been thrown out of employment during the :ast two yeRrs;
(b) t ~ it is a fact that the Bombay salooD crews have served: City and Hall LiDes passenger ships, nil also H1J"ed 'l'rdD8})()rt;
. "hips of GOV8l'llment for Bevera! generations; . (c) 'whether they are awarp. lhRt these seamen are holdiog certi.
ficates of service iilsued hy the Government Shipping Office at Bombay;
(d) t ~ they are aware that during the last Gr8llt War, "'heD &(!RJOen were reluctant. to 8erve on mt'rebant and Governrllent chartered ~ ~ they held out an 1l8SUrance to Bombay saloon crews tha.t in the matter of recru;tment, war service rewards, t.fe. they' ·.ould be treated on a footill8 of equality vith·
. .B!it,jsh Indian SeRmen; (e) whether it i'J ,a fAct th'lt the Bombay saloon crews have been,
; .' displaced by the Calcutta creWI; ". ,~, ~t t ~~ considered, th. treatment meted out to Born-
. '''. ..:' ~. lI.I1oloon I!l'eW. despite., t ~ long yeare of loyol· service aDei ,n the face of tlw!-. a~~ a '.~ ,
'UOIS4'TI'v.S .8SBMBLY, [9TH MARCH 1936,
~ ~t ' .~ ,.are a '~ J"st a fail:ly big. n ~ of the&>'saloon t-reW9 18 t a ~ or naturaUzed tn Bombay; and
: ,," .'(fl) if .80, ,,'bethel' t ~ ;propose to ':l18 their IJ()O(\ officei to '!lee that. the Bombay saloon crews Bre not I[f'pt out any longer"
~. KODouri.b1. 'SIr lIlihammail Zafrullah BhaD: (a) I assume that 'by "Bombay seamen of the snioon section" the Honourable Member means 'GOIl.neRe saloon creWl:!, So fIll' BR Govemment ar" aware, the numbei' of unemployed amon!fthese men a'oes not exceed 1,000,
'(o}No, not 'for . "several generations", (c) Yes,
,.'(d) Goverrunent are not aware of any sUQh assurance having been given, 11; is a fact. however, thnt, "for the purposes of the grant of war riska lIOmpensation, Gonnese senmen emplo.ved in British merchant vessels were f,rell.ted in the' same way as British Indian seamen, .
(e) Yes. (f) Government have cons:dered representations in the matter, (g) Yes. (h) I would refer the Honourable Member to my reply to part (f), of
.his previous quostion.
ABOLITION OF SmPl'ING BBOKEBS IN BOMBA.Y •
. 265. Mr. N ••• Joshi: Will Govemment be pleased to state: . . (8) whether they have considered the desirability of abo).iahing the
I!lupping brokers in BOlubay, as reoommonded by the J.toyal Commission on LaboW' in India;
(b) whether it is a ftlct that the shil>ping brokers' licences in Calcutta terminated over a year ago as the result of the Whitley COIn mission recommendlltion;
:{c) whelluolr they are aWI.lrf! that the shipping brokers m Bombny ceased to function 80S suppliers of seamen about two years ago;
,(d) wpether they are a.ware that the Peninsular and llriental Steam Navigliotion Co., British India Steam Navigation o.~ and
~a other ComplUliea, have made their own a an .~ to advance first ~ont ' ""ages to thea crews, intlol'oudt:llt ·of the shipping brokers in Bombay, and that the other Comparues can alDo make similar arrangements and save
'five or seven per cent. commission on the advances, if the brokers are totally dispensed with;
'(e) whether it is a fact that for making advances to seamen, nu licence is necessllry, aw{ that the broktlrs' licence under section 24 of the Indian Merchant Shipping Act is meant only for the supply (f seamen;
(f) whether they '~ aware that t ~ Seamen 's ~ t ' t Com-mittee preSIded over by Mr. A. G. Clow, l.C.S:, m 1922, ,made tcathiDg commenta on the eystem of a o ~ ... being the meane of oontinuance' of bribery and corruption through their ghat ~ and. •
110)
(8)· whether they propoSe not to renew the· shipping, brokers' licea .. · in Bombay, ,aY recommended by the Whitley Cc.mmia&iun, for the purpose of erRdicBting the evils uf bribery and corruptioll frOIn the, rankl of lDdiaIl .eamfn lind abipe' "ffioers; if 10, when?
fte BoDoarable Sir .u .......... ad ~ DaD: (8) Yea . • (b) The licenses in question. terminated' in June.. 1935,
(c) Government are informed that this statement is not quite ~.
(d) The Co:npanies named have made their' OWD" arranll'ements to ad-yance fint month '9 wages to their crews; but Government haYe no ~n o ... · tion whether other ShipIing Compaies 08n make eimil&r arrangementa. or not.
(e) Yes. (f) Yes; but in regard to the shipping brokers at Bombay the Com,.
mittee referred to by the Honourable Member did not find any genuine· evidence to show that they were guilty ot corrupt practices.
(g) No. Government do not, propose to take any auch step, beoau ... certain Shipping Compan:es stiD make use of the licensed broken •• Bombav for the recruitment of seamen and it is understood that the present licensees are working satisfactorily.
CoNSTRUCTION OJ' A BUlLDING FOB '1'IDI Onrou OJ' TID PBnrOU'.t.L. O:rnCBB, MBBOAlII'TIIJI: :M.uI.mB DBPAllTIDN'l', BOIIB"'Y, "'!I'D OJ' TBa 8BIPPINO M..i.sTEB AND NAUTIO.A.L BUBVBYOB.
266. Mr. N ••• Jolhf: Will Government be pleased to state: <aJ whether it is a fRet that they have taken a lite from tho-
Bombay Port Trust, near the Alexandra Dock Red Gnte tC' construct a huilding of their own to accommodate the offices of the Principal Officer. Mp.rcllntile MRrinp nn ~. ment, BombRY and ot the Sliipping Mralter and Nautical! Surveyor; ,
lb) whether it ill a fnet that over Rs. 2,000 a month art' paid .. rent for these offices;
(e) whether the proposal to have a Government building baa beeit pending for several years;
(d) whpther plBOs for the ' n~ are reRd,; and (e) when it is proposed to carry the propoul into neoution'l'
fte Bo~o a Sir .ohammad ZafrallIh Dan: (a) No. (b) Yes. (c) Yes. (d) Certain provisional plans for the buiJdinll were obtained in t .' ~.
but these hsve not yet been finlllly a~ o bv Govem,mfln" (e) The question ,is ~ pre.sent. under con8iderlltion. .
[9Tu ~ R 1986.
:"'Am OJ'TIIlI: RoAD OO:NNlItJ'ftNO mCIiwuiAB RoAD. Wl'fB TuBJDIAlf GATE iN DELHI.
,267. Pu41tlfUakantha Dill: Will Government be pleased to state:
, r
(a) whether they are awr.re that the kacha road connecting' the Circular Roadw6h Turkman Gate is in a very bad Oondition;
(b) who is. ~ on for the upkeep of that road, whether the })jew Delhi ~ n a t or the Old Delhi Municipality; and
(c) whether they propose to instruct tile authorities repair the road at an early date?
concerned' to
atr Girl. ShUkir BaJpal: (a) Yes. (b) and (c). The road is still in the jurisdiction of the Old Delhi
Municipality who are, therefore, strictly speaking, responsible for repair-:ing it. They have, however, not done so as the area through which' tho ,road passes is 'to be transferred to the New Delhi Municipality. There lutl; 'been delay in effecting sHch a trnnsfer owing to insistence bv the New Deihi Municipal Committee on the removal of certain structures as a ·.,ndition . precedent. Measures are in tra:n to expedite fulfilment of this -eonditionand it is "hoped that repairs to the road will, be effected before long.
AlIOUNTS BBJ'UNDED UNDER SECTION 49 OF THE INDIAN INCOME-TAX ACT.
'268. Mr. lIathuradaa Vlllanil: (1\) Will Government be pleased to I.Jay on the table a statement giving:
(i) particulars of the !.:mounts refllnd!'d under lIe('tion 49 ~ tt.e Indilln Income-tax Act, year by year, for the last five years; and
(ii) particulnrs of the corresponding refundB made to IndiRn tlSS('SSees under section 27 of the English Finance Act, 1920?
(b) If the latter information is not nynilnble in Rny. of the publi!lhed 1'eports, art: o~' n nt prepared to take steps to obtsm the same from . the British Income·tax Duthorities?
K1'. A. B. Lloyd: (a) (i) I la.v a statement 'on the' table giving the . aesired partieullln.
(ii) The information is not a a a~ .'
(h) No.
'Scatellltlit aAo"';,," tAl! mnmmt. 01 Pl!filftd grtIftted flJttir.r ReetiOfi .19 '" tAe ',,4ima /actlmt·taz ;let, nil, durillg tAe rear, 19:J()·81 to 198.#-86 .
1930·31 . 1.00,61.217
1931.8! J ~ 1,11,39,115"
1932·33 1,42.115,933
1935-U . 1.08.50,401
1914·35 1.28,82,1161
UNSTARR:BD QUESTIONS AND AlfBWBRB.
P£.Y.OI' Atioou:NTS DIlPABTMmn' PI.[T8 AVBllAOB MILBAOB POR TBB ·TIu.VJII.ILINO TIC]t&'! IN.plIOTOlts AND THBIB DJVJSION&L INSPECTORS 05 TBAlnt .... '1'OOPBRATINO DBPARTMBNT; .
_.'" Mr. a . a ~ All: (8') Is it a fset that 1\ t n~ WaB lteld at Calcutta on 8rd May, 1m, the minutes of ,,·bioh are reproduced On pugeo 45 of the Report bv the Chief Operating Superintendent, on t~ ~ nta working <)f thr: crew' system, dated the 5th January, 1928'
(h) Is it 1\ mct that Mr. G. J. Harris, Deputy Chief Operating Superin-tendent ~ B , was also present at the said ~t n
(lJi Is it a fRet that it WRB unanimously agreed at the said meeting that the Traveiling 'ficket Inspectors and their Divis:onal Inspectors on transfer to Operating Department will be paid the pay of Accounts Depart-ment pZa average mileage?
(I) Is it a fact that the Deputy Chief Operating Superintendent (Crews) (Mr. G. J. Harris) subsequently recommended aB under?
"It. il tlKl,"efore luggeated that the Travelling Ticket Inapecto\"ll and their Divi&ional Inspectorl whOle appointments have been transferred to the Operating Departments should come on to the new Bcales of pay sanctioned recently by the Agellt for the Crew 'Yltem and to -enable the administrat.ion to do 10, the a o n~ nt of Travelling ~ t Insped-ors and DiviBitmal Inlpectors tranaferred to Operat.ing Departmeat.. a ~ 1>11 abolished. It would the" be a case of abolition of a o ~ nt .. a~ offer tJf oth .. 1I11itable employment to the holders thereof."
The Honourable Sir Kub&mmad Za!l'1llJah DaD: With your permislion, Sir, I propose to reply questions NOI. 269, 270 and 279 together.
I would invite the Honourable Member's attention to my reply to Qui Muhamlriad Ahmad Kn7.mi's sh,rred .qup.stion No. 882 BIlked :>0 the flO<.'t' .of this HouBe on the 26t·h February, 1986.
CoNTBoL OJ' TUB TRAVELLINO TIOXft EuJm0m8 BY AOCOUFrB.
t270. JIr. Xuhammad Azhar All: (8) JR it 1\ fact I.hat on t.he ~t Bnd 14th November, 1980 a t n~ wns hf'ld !'t Calcutta to discuss the Moody-Ward Report and the Accounts Officers who attend .. d thf'! t n~ wf>re unani-m'olls on the point of Accounts controlling the Travelling Tick(st Examinei'll '8B a supplemental audit check?
(b) Is it a fact that this point waB eHminated .from the minutes of the 1Iliitl t n~ Rnd thr. Chief Accounts Officer drew the attention of thE' n t.~ Chicf Operating Superintendent, Cren, to this faot in the follow-ing t.ermB?
"In ac1cnowledl{inJr the receipt of the minutes of f,be meet.inlt heM on the mh and 14th November I beg to point out that no mllnt,ion h .. hl'CJl made of the di.· _Ion t,l18t .mIIe Ofti' the allltlleY that' _I t() control fhe T",vl'l1ihl!' Ticket EXRmi'l"'" 'The .... nreNm+.t,iftl of tbe Accnnnts Denart''''''nt. W8Te deflnitf'lv of orinitln f·bat. -tb" Tmvellinrr Tirket Enmlners who will be dointr t.he IllUDe duties iii the Trln'eJlinl( 'Tit'ket· Ynmt!ctoY'll Ihould he under Accounts C()ntml and that the Oprra:.inCl' Depart-menf. ,IIhould OOIlcentrate on f.be proper control, check and collections of ticket. at· daUonl." . "''''''at. bto,C"I'e the abolition or di_1 of the ,,_t ltaff of exiRfing Travellmlr
'Tirht In_tors are o~ t.bi, lIIatter he referred to the Rail .. " Board. I aan be Gtllhred If tbe minnte. tn ~ harewlth are amended aceordingly either ... JIIII'&R1"&ph 2 or ., to ·include thi. .te1V." .
tFor aDBWer to thi. question, ,,.e 8111_ to qaestion N(). 969.
LBOI8LATIVIl Alfl!lBIIBLY: ~ MARCH 1988'.
'; (e) , Is 'it a fact that thelle Tiews of the Chief A:coounts Officer' wer. never conve:ved to the Railway Board, nor were they embodied in the-lIlid minute8 by the Operating l!outhoritiee?' .
(d) 18 it a fact that the Director of Finance, Railway Board; also' de-aired to have the Travelling Ticket Examiners- under Accounts controlmd' this view waa expreaaed by him in hi8 remarks on the Moody-WarcII Report?
(e) III it a fact that a Memher of the Railway Board (Mr. Hannay)' als? recommended that the Trolvelling Ticket In8pectors must remain under Accounts, as per his remarks on the Moody-Ward Report?
(f) Were these vieWfl of the Chief .:\(!COllnt.. Officer, Director' of Finance, Memher, Railway Board, discuaeed at tho meeting of the Rail-way Board? If so, on what date, and whst was the result·,of diaouuiODp
MId if not, why not?
(g) Under what letter and on what date did the Railway Board' order the cont.re.1 of the Trnvelling Til'ket EXBminerll to be trBoDllf",lTt:d from Accounts to Operating?
(h) If orders were not issued by the Railway Board on the subjeet of -Travelling Ticket Examiners control, who was the a'llthority on whose initiAtive tla Aocounts control of the Travelling Ticket In8pector. wu abolished?
(ii Are Government preparf!d to consider the desirability of appointing an Enquiry Committee, comprising of official and non-official ~ to investigabe the causes whioh have led to the abolition of Aecourits controt of Travelling Ticket Examiners and to consider how far check and couriter-check !U'c beneficiul under one bead, i.e., . Operating, which have Binee time8 immemorial heen separate, i.e., iR!'ue, check, aod collection at BtationB by Operating and check in trains by Aecount.&? If not, why Dot?'
CANOBLLATION 01' THB TEST 01' THB TICKBT CJu:OJUfiG ·STAI'I'.'
271. ][r. ][ubammad Azbar AU: (a) Is it a fact thlit a printed appe.r WUIi Buhmit·ted b.v over u thousand :If the ticket checking. staff to th .. Agent. E'18t Indiun Railway, on ~t May, 1935?
(h) 18 it Ii fact t.hat no reply has been received from the Agent?
(c) Are Government. prepared to consider the points raised is the appeal and c:lncel the test of the ticket checking stuff?
(d) 18 it a fact that the object of thi8 triennial te8t is to ensure that; the workers pOS8ess the required knowledge of the rule8 concerning their duties t
'1'he Honourable Sir Muhammad Zaflal1ah EhaD: With your permissioD. Sir, I propose t,o repl'y to questiQns Nos. ~ , 272, 278 and 274 togetlter.
J 'Would ;nvite the Honourable Member's att-entiou to my reply tQ Q_ Muhammad Ahmad KBzmi's starred question No. 882 asked on the 800r of this House on the 26th February, 1986.
,.;
, ; UNSTARRBD QUESTIONS AN», .~ R .
TBST Oll' THE TICKB'l' CsEClWiG SUD.
2101
,t2'7'l, Kr. Jhhamm&d. ".Ashar .All: (a) How many Ticket CollectorR and -rravelling Ticket' Examiners have been reduced in pay and t an ~ 10 other posts as a result of failure in the written examination Rnd hotir 'many of them pSl!scd in' oral test and what, WRS their length of aervice in the ticket checking branch and in what Divisions such cafes have ~ '
, ,
"(b} Are such' testS held on other State Railways in India?
:RllsPOl{SIBILlTY OF AN EMPLOYlIE 01' TBB TICKBT CmaCEDfG BRANCH.
! t273. Ill. Xuhammac.i AIhar All: Will Government be ple8sOO to ,statE>.
(a) whether an emplo.vee of the ticket checkirig hranch is held responsible for the propcr knowledge of the rulcs concerning his duties and in rasel:! of failure he IS punished; and
(b) whether the Railway conllerned ever Buffered a loss for t,bE. action of the individual tickct checker, or he himself is held responsible?
TRoUBLES 01' THE TBAVELLDfG TICKET EUlIIl'EIls.
1274. 1Ir • • uham,mad Azhar All: (8) Has the attention of Govemment 'boen drAwn to an article under tne caption of "T. T. Es. TJ"I)ubles". as published in the Ma.dur, the official organ of the East Indian Railway 1!nion, dated the 81st December, ]935?
(1); Is it 1\ fact that in other Divi'Rions, too, similar pressure ill heing -exercilled on the Travelling 'fickct Examinere to swell their ea.rnings?
(el Is .it 8 fact that in some on~ explanations ore called for from thestnff when their enmingK drop and' vllriouS kmds of punishments are -awarded?
(d) Will Government be pleased to 1A:V on the tahle the following infonnation according to each Division of ERRt IndilUl Railway:
(1) Travelling Ticket Examine" reduced Hill Ticket Collectors; . (2) warnings given; (8) fines imposed; and (4) explanations called;
,'for the period lst January, 1985 to Slst December, 19867 (e) Do Government cte!tire 1hnt the n n n~ should increA&e TlropOr·
tiC?nately to the Travelling Ticket Examiners employed on each ~ a n
'TaA. VELLING ALLOWANCES SUBJECT TO M~ U:NDEB THE I.COIO-TAlI: AcT.
1'75. 1Ir • • 1Ib amm ll.4Ibar .All: (a) What are the variou8 formA 01 tnt"eIling Illlowances which are subject to assessment uudP.l' Innt'me·tu: ~~ .
tP'nr auwer t.o w. .-.tion, Me aul"8I' 10 'l'Jeat.ion No. 27l.
•
[9TH )lARCH 1986_
(b) Will Government please state whether an allowance subjected to-assessment and reckoned for leave salary, provident fund deductions and .retiring gratuity comes within the definition of pay under Fundamental Rule 9.(21) (a) (iii);'
(c) If the reply to part (b) be in the negative, under what definition. .dOes it fall and under what aut.hority is it assessed and considered as -leave a o ~, 'etc.'?' . (el) . o~ '. ~ : temi ' .. salary" include- travelling allowance of any kinet under the Income·tux Act? . . .
(e) Can travelling allowance included in "salary" under the Income-.: ~,a Act be Cla.S8Cd a8 pay under Fundamental Rule 9 (21) (a) (iii)?
. (f) Can travelling allowance be assessed without being classed as pay under Fundamental Rule 9 (21) (a) (m)?
Mr. A. H. Lloyd: (a) Liability to income·tax of any travemng allow-ance is .'1 matter to be det-ermined under the provisions of the Indian In-
. o ~ta Act, XI of 1922. Under section 4 ta) (1.'i) of the Act, any speciar allowance, benefit or perquisite specifically granted to meet expenses wholly and necessar!l.y incurred in the performance of the duties of an office or employment of profit is exempt from the payment of inllome-tax.
(b), (d) and (e). The question whether 8uch an allowance can b. "classed us pay" within the an n~ of the Fundamental Rules or salary has no bearing on the determination' of liability to income-tax.
, , (0) Does not arise. (f) Yes.
TRAVELLING ALLoWANOES TREATED LIKE PAY.
276. JIr. Kuh&mmad Alhar .Ali: What are the definite co'lsiderations on which certain forms vf travelling Rllowances are treated like pay for an ~a t a purposes, and others are not so treated?
The BODourable Bir James Grigg: No fann of travelling &Ilowance a. .• reated as pay for all practical purposes.
TBA. VELLING ALLow ANOlI:t!I TREATED LIKE PAY.
277. Mr. Muhammad Alhar.Ali: Can travelling allowance, treated as: pay for the purpose of assessment, leave salary, provident fllnd and retir-ing gratu:ty be clll1lsed as pay under Fundamental Rule 9 (21) (a) (iii)"? It "not, why not?
'lilt HOIlOVable Sir Jam. GrIa: No. Beoause it is a type of compen· aatory allowance, vide Fundamental Rule 9 (5) ..
TuVBLLlNG ALLoWANOES UPON WBIOlI LEAVB SALARY 18 .A88BSBBD.
278. JIr. Kubammad .bbar .Ali: Will Government plea" state: (a) the v,rious forms of travelling allowances upon which theleav.
uJary is assessed; . (b) the conditions for NCkoning leave aalary;
~ B~ ~ ANSWERH.'
.' CC) ~t leave, ~ . a is ,pay proppr; ,t, ,,(d) whether leave salary is classed as pay; and
(e) the rule made under section OO·B of Government of ludia Act. under which leave salary is permissible and cl.sed u pay?
fte Honourable Sir .Tamea Grigl: (a) Leave salary is Do1; usessed on any travelling allowance, Certain travelling allowsnces whjch are paid ,D)Oqthlyare aU!>wed to be drawn in addition to leave salary during ,leave subject to certain conditions which are bi.efly that the officer con,cemed continues to incur the eX'pense to meet which the allowance is granted.
(b) Bnd (c). The conditions for reckoning leave salary and the rulf.8 made 'under section 96·B of the Government of India Act will be found
t:iil Chapt.er 'x of the Fundamental Rules. and Part In of the Civil Service Regulations. '
(c) and (d). No.
ABOLITION OF THE POSTfI OF TlU: 1'RAVBLLlNG TICXBT INSPBCTORS ANI) ELuuNEBS ON THII EAST INDUN AND 'mB NOBTH WB8UURAILWAYi.
t279. JIr. Muhammad AIhar Ali: Is it a fact that more than ODCf,
Government have stated before this House that the posta 01 the Travelling 'Tioket Examiners on the North Western Railway and' Travelling Ticket Inspe"tors on the East Indian Railway were abolished from' the 1st J UM, 1981 'I If so, will Government please place before this House the, DOGi-iication declaring the &bo!ition of the pusts of tb.e Travelling Ticket Ins-pectors and Extminers on the East Indian and the North Western Rai];.. ways, respeotiveJy?
REDUCTION IN PAY OF GoVBBlUIB5T SDVA1"1'8.
,280. ,JIr. Muhammad .bhar . ~ (a) Is it a fact that the pay ()f a Gov-emment servant is protected against reduction by Fundamental Rule 15 made by the Secretary of State for India? ' ..
(b) Is it a fact that pay can only be reduced in ones of inefficiency, misconduct and in anticipation of the abolition of a post?
(c) Is it a fact that abolition of post, within the meanings of Funda-mentsl Rule 15, means that the post should cease to exist any longer and should be brought under reduction? : I (d) Does a change in designation constitute abolition of post for th& purpose of reduction in pay?
(e) What are the euentials of the abolition of a poat for the purpose of reduction in pay?
(f) Can the post of an employee, whose designation ilchanged and who is 'made 'to perform the same duties and in addition other ~t be said to have been abolished far the purpose of t~on in pay?
(g) Is ,there any statutory protection against abolition of a })flIt, and OD what grounds can it be abolished?
'l"be Bcmourable IIr lam .. ~ (a) Yea, ell:eept 'OIl tlhe CODcIitiOll. mentioned in a n~ta Rule 15.
tFor an.war to &biB qu.tion, ,ee ... .,. ............. Ko. _ '
LBOI8J.ATIVB ASSEMBLY. [9TH ~ R 1936-
(b) Under Fundamental Ruie .15 a Government servant's substantive pay CBn only be reduced on account of inefficiency or misbehaviour or on ~ written ' ~. . .
. ·'(c) Ftilldamerital Uul6 15'·does not refer to the abolition of a post, so tbequestion doos not a,rise. .
'.:' . Cd) ind (f)." A n ~ irithe. designation of n post usually implies the ~ o t~o . of t~~t piH!t and the creation of a new post which may be on a ~ , a~ of '. P!lY. .: .. . ~ If a, post is abolished it ceases to exist and, therefore, no questioJ1.
ot .~n ~ . pay of that post arises. ;:' .(g) Apo.t . ano ~ be abolished by a competent authority. The latter oQanabolisb ;it j£ it.is fOl,lnd ,to be 1\0 longer required or if it is found to be a ~n t Rt convenient owing to a change in circumstnnces or the re-organisation of work to abolish it and create a new one in its place.
INTBODUCTION OJ' NEW PASS RULES ON STATE RAILWAYS. ,:.
281; 1Ir •• uhammad.· Ashar ~ (8) Is it a fact that new pass rules a . ~nt been ~t o on. State Railways in India?
. (b).Is it • fact that certain employees. governed by the old East Ind:an B&wway P8'8S zules: were allowed.a second class pass when drawing Rs. 116 .a pay, and now the standard has been raised to Rs. 126 even for the ·bome· line? ..
. . ~ tjUt.a ~ t~ at. n .thifJ respect and in many other respects the new rules 'nave adversely affected the privileges of the old employees?
(d) Are Government prepared to consider the desirability of allowing the old employees to retain their old privileges"
. ":.,*"I'JrODbar&bli'·i1r;Jil:1lh'ammad ZarruUah Khan: (8) A revised lIcale '~ privilege pll8AeB over' 'Stt\te-manngCd Railways hRS recently been autho-Qied. ~ ' ' t . . ..
(c) The rev!sed a ~ ~ tn ~ R in some ~ nnd. extend them iil others. ThIs was uD.sVOldable If some degree of umformltv WRB to be 'obtained. .: . .: ' .
(d) This oonsideration has not been overlooked.
Ao •• LtlllT 1'0. R.oa~.B IN W.wrOlf TBAlNlN08cHOOL, NORTH WESTEBJr R.uLWAY.
~ ,,': t ' ..' " .' .
, .. ~ ~ .uJwDlDad. ~ (a) Is it a fact that the age for recruit-ment in Walton a n~n . School, North Western Railway, is 21 yen:s? :
' ~ a'~ a: tact that. ·the age limit for recruitment in other ~ is aually 25 years?
.;,,·.(0') .• 1.· it a fact t a~ due'to this restriction, moat. oithecandidate. are thrown out of oonsideration" .
(d) Are. o o~ prepared to reiax the. rules au ~ the age to S5 !fears?
. DNST.\B8BJ) .QDB8TIOJf8 .. ~ .. ~~ BB •
. . ft.e Honourable Sir Mubammad ZafrallahDan: ~ . Iwo\lld invite the Honourable Member's attention to the North .Weste.u ;Railway' ' to~ 'I'raining School's Calendar fo!' 1935-36, a copy of which is in. tl;le' I4brar7' 9f the House. . . ' . . . .-
. (b) If the Honourable Member will specify the. services. I wili en-deavour to reply.
(c) Government have no information. (d) ',l'he Agents of Railways are empowered to relax or modify t.berula-
if spedal circumstRncElIt or local conditions render it desirablt.'. Govern-ment do not consider any further action is necessary.
TwENTY-ONB YID.ABS' AGE-LUllT FOR OERTAIN POSTS.ON THB NeB'J'H WESTEBlI RAILWAY AND THE EAST INDIAN it&.ILWAY. .
·283. 1Ir. Mubammad Aahar All: Will Government. be pleased to state what aro the various posts on North Western RiUlway and East Indian Railway, the age-limit for which is 21 years only?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad za.tniUab DaD: I presum., the Honourable Memhal' is referring· to th(> age-limit· forl'ecn.itment. . n 10, 1 would invite his attention to the "Rules for the recruit,ment alld training of FlubordinAw stnff on State-managed Railways',' .acopy of whic.-b is in,the Library of the House. .
CIRCUMSTANOES UNDER wmCH THE AMOUNT OF GRATUITY OAN BB UDUOIID IN RESPECT OF STATE RAILWAY EMPLOYEES.
284. Mr. Muhammad Azhar All: (a) Will Government be pleased to state the circumsillllceR under which the amount of gratuity can be redunecl in respect of State Railway employees?
(b) Is it a fllct that gratuity can only be claimed if the servioes rendered. ar£' efficient. fuithful and continuous?
(c) Is there any other roctor on which the admissibility of gratuity i. based?
(d) On what definite records is the opinion based that the servicea rendered are efficient? '.
(e) Who is the competent authority who oan reduce the amount of gratuity?
(f) Is the Chief Operating Superintendent,' East Indian Railway, dele-gated with powers to reduce the amount of gratujty? U 110, ~ undCU' what notification? ... .' . i
(g) In caso the Chief Operating Superintendent reduces the a o ~ of lI'o.tuity, what remedy is left for the empl6yee to get full gratouy;?t
(h) Does an appeal against non-payment of full gratuity lie with tho Railway Board? . (i) a~ an employee a ~ inefficient ~~. ~~ gratuity? .
(j) Can an employee, getting maximum at ' .P ~ .iAetlicient?
.1Ir. P. B. :aa,: (a) When the employee's service 8S a whole i& net' eonsidered 'good. efficient and faithful'. . ~ . '
2110 LBGISLATIVB ASSEMBLY. t9TH MARCH 1986.
(b) and (0) .. The conditions under wh:ch employees become eligible)or· the grant of gratuity are hrid down in rules 1 and 8 of the State Rht'",a, Gratuity Rules, a copy of which is available in the Library of the TI()tise.
(d) On the record of service and the opinion of persons who hOO opportunity of seeing his work .
. (e) The Agent of the Railway. (I) No.
- (g) Does not arise. ~ Yes. ~ and (j). I am unable to reply to these abstract questions. Ii the
Honourable Member gives me concrete instances I shall endeavcur to give him a reply.
RB.ApPOnJTIIENT OF A RAILWAY EMPLOYEE DISOHABGED ON REDUCTION OJ' ESTABLISHMENT.
285. Mr. Muhammad Alhar All: (a) Will Government be pleased to state if a Railway employee who is discharged on redulltion of establish-ment has any claim for re-appointment?
(b) Is it a fact that his namf' is to be kept on the waiting list and that he is to be offered the first 'suitable vacancy?
(c) Is it a fact that a suitable vacancy under the rules means a vacancy carrying equivalent pay?
The Honourable SIr Muhammad Zafrull&h Khan: (a) and (b). No. 11:. eonnect:on with the retrenchments effected on Railways during ~ Government, however, iilllued instructions that retrenched Broil should ba borne on a waiting list with a view to reappointment in suitable vac'Jn,·ies. In this connection I would refer the Honourable Member to the UR:lway Department (Railway BoaTd) letter No. 1635-E.G., dated the 30th 1), cem-ber, 1932, a copy of which is in the Library of the House.
(c) No.
CERTII'IOATES GRANTED TO THE STATE RAILWAY EIIPLOYEES.
286. Mr. Muhammad Ashar All: Will Government be pleased to state: (a) whether the certificate granted to the State Railway employees
(form G/OO-Revised-E.I.R.) is an authentic document in respect of the entries made therein;
(b) whether any o'ther reason can be asl!igned by the administration 8ubsequently (othor than the one mentioned ~ the certifioate); and
(c) whether it is a'fact that confidential repo!ta are not entertaineci by Government against the State Railway employees?
fte Honourable SIr Muhammad Zafrallah Khan: (a) Government R1'f' :informed that when this certifirate is executed and Rigned by an officer it is an authentic document.
(b) Yes. (c) 'Confidential reportS· may be made about any railway servatat. \vhen
the neceaaity ariBee.
UN8TAllBBD QUBRTIONS AND ANSWBRS. . . .' . , . 2111 " ~ ~
C'JlTRALISATION OF ACCOUNTlNG \VORK BY MBRGING ACCOUNTS SBOTION AND PAY -RILl. SBCTIONS 0,.. THB Dn'lSloNAL SUPSRINTBNDBNT'S'OJ1PlOBS wrrH DIVISIONAL kooo'UllT'l'S OFI'IClI:8.
287. Mr ••. S. An.,.·: (a) Will Government be' pleased to state if the !Scheme of cent"ralizing accounting work by merging' Accounta Section :and Pay Bill Sections of the Divisional Superintendent's Offices with Division,J Acqounts Offices, as embodied in the "Memorandum ~ by the Financial Commissioner, Railways, on the proposal to adopt as a permanent measure the system of separation of Audit from Accounts on Indian Railways ... has been given effect to on the North Western Railway? If so, when?
(b) Is it a fact that some staff belonging to the Divisional Superinten-dents' cadre was taken over by the Accounts Department in this conneo· tion?
(c) Is it a filet that this staff has been entirely merged into the Accounts Department ill respect of work, and there is no distinction in the dutieR .entrusted to them and those of the staff borne on the, cadre of the Accounts Department?
(d) Is it a fact that there is a considerable difference in the rates of pay of ~n two sets of the staff?
(e) Is it a fact that this staff has Dot yet been fitted by the Accounts Department into their cadre? If so, why?
(I) Is d R foot that some of tlds staff have passed certain departmental '6xaminations of the ACCOUT.i.ts DepartmtlDt but are debarred from the benefits attached to the passing of such examinations? If so, why?
Mr. P. :a. Bau: (a) Yes. The dates varied on different divisiollil and :the transfer was effected between October, 1929 and June, 1001.
(b) Some of the staff of the Divisional Superintendent's offices were .placed under the control of the Div:sional Accounts Officers.
(0) The reply to the first part is in the negative. 'rhe clerks of the Divisional Superintendents' offices are doing the same duties &14 t~
-were doing under the Divisional Super:ntendents. ' (d) There is BOrne differencE.' in the scale of pay .){ the Lwo 8f:te' 01
,staff. (e) I would ~' the Honourable Member to the reply given on the
11th March, 1935, to part (iv) of lltarred question No. 817 by Mr. B. X. Hosmani.
(f) It is understood t~at a few of these men have passed the Apl)('udix 'C Examinat:on of the Accounts Department which merely makes ~ •• 1eri ,eligible for promotion above Cla1Is II of the Accounts scale. No "tber "pecial benefits are allowed to those who qualify in this examin"lion. Moreover, as the clerks of the Divisional Superintendents' offices h,,\'e to look for further promotion on the Divisional Superintendents' lists, the question of any benefit beiog given to them by the Accounts ~ a t n. -does noi ariee.
lR'l'BODUO'l'lON 01'.A. CoIiBINIID SOALB 01' PA.Y I'OB CLBBJts UNDD TBB CBDJ' AoooUNT8,OI'l'IOllB, NOBTB . B~ RAILWA.Y.
,288. Mr." S. An.,.: (a) Is it a fact that, by amalgamating two scalea of pa;v, u combined sc"Ie, t;i •. RI!. ~ , has been introduced lor clerke under the Chief Accounts Officer, North Western Railway, With
.eftect from lhe 1st January, 19351
LBGISLATIVB ASSBMBLY. [9TH MAIlCD I98&..
. . (b) Is it. a ~ t that the existing o o~ n scale of pay ,for olerka: under the Agent, North Western Railway is R . ~ . '.'
(c) Is it a fact that after reaching the maximum of this seale theso· clerkB have to wnit lor years, generally from five to tf:ln, befoJ;'e they C8Jl. step into the ne:&t? .
Cd) Will Government be pleased to state the reasons for tho difierenoer in the scales of pay prevailing in the two organizations of the ~ Railway?'
(e) Is it a fact that the olerks under the Agt:nt, North Western Railway·,. represented their casc in the middle of 1985 for amalgamation of their two-scales, 'OJ •• , Rs. 89-8-60 and Rs. 68--4-80--5-95, as done in the case-of clerks under the Chief Accounts Officer, North Western Railway? .
(f) Will Government be pleased to state whether any action has been, taken on the same so far? If not, when and what action they propose to. take on the same?
The BODOUr&bIe Sir Muhammad Za,trullah lCwl: (8) Yes, by amalp.-· mation of grade III (Rs. 40 4 80) with grade II (Rs. 60-5-90) with an. efficiency bar at Rs. 80. .
. (b) The lowest scale of pay for office clerks, on the North ~
Railway other than t,hose employed under the Chief Accounts Officers, is. Rs. 30-3-60 (old) and Rs. ~ (revised).
. (c) The period of the wa:ting depends upon the occurrence of vacancies. in the higher grade which in turn depends upon the age and retirement or of casualties amongst staff in the higher grade.
(d) I would refer the Honourable Member to the reply given to .part. (e) of unstarred question No. 64 asked by Bhai Parma Nand Oft the 22ncl February, 1935.
(e) Yes.
. (f) No. Government do not consider that the amalgamation of the-~ o scales referred to is justified. Thc number of posts in. the high8!t of the two grade is sufficient fur normal grade to grade promotion on the-occurrence of vacancies.
CoNTRACTS I'OB THB SALB OF ICB AND AERATED W.&.TERS ON ~. B WESTERN RAILWAY.
289. 8eth Sheodaaa Daga: (a) Is it a fact that ~ . all t\le State Ra ~ a t~ on the North Western Uai1way, there iA only one contractor f('l'r
the sale of ice and rerated watera on station platforms and in ~, n '.t . .. 4u,ing hot weather, and, that there are three, such conttactOrs on 'thO' ~ t Western Railway?, ..
(b) Is ,it a fact that ice and IBl"Bted water contracts OD aU ~t ~aIVRYS, tlxcept on the North Western Railway, a ~ given for more:.tho,n five. yean. at a t~ and on tbe North ,Western Ra ~ a t ~ a~ .. ~ ~, :mIl', ror one year. .. .
(c) Will Govammt·nt be pleasoo to r-tate ii .. t ~ . are prepared t() arrange for only OUI') contrl\ctor on t ~ 1-.orth Wetdern Railway for the· sale of ice and' erated waters inrunningt!'8ina andon'8tation at o ~ during bot weather, auch contracts being given for peri<>as of five ~ .'a\ a time or as on the other railways? .. . ,
·.,' I,
. VlI'B'I'AlUlBD QUEBTIONBA.ND A.NBWaaB.
; ''f'b.I JroI1011l'abll 81i Kubammad ZafraDah KhaIl: <a) No: 'the prACtice' varies. Generallv. station vendors are licensEd to sell ice snd eratftd water on station' platforms. On running trains the Burma. East Indian and Gt-eat In'd:an Peninsula 'Railways have one contractor, the Eastern Bengal Railway two and the Nort·h Western Railway three.
(b) No. On the Burma and Eastern Bengal Raihvays 'no period is. specified. On the ' ~a t Indian, Great Indian Peninsule. and Notth Westem, Railways the contracts are for one year.
INDEJlNI'rY BoNDS DUE TO ABSENCE OF THE RAILWAY RECEI1"l'8 TAKEN I1lOII! • PERSONS WHEN GOODS OR PAROELS ARE DELIVEBED.
200. Mr. AmarlDdra .atb Ohattopadbyaya: (a) Is it. a fact that the-Tramc Manager, Eastern Bengal Uflilwoy, has published the following in his Railwuy's Gazette No. 23 of 1935, dated the 80th November. U135?'
"Staff concerned are informed t.hat when good. or parcel. are delivered on indemnity honda dnet() absence of the railway receipts, they muat ~ action enbat· quently to recover the missing railway receipt from ~ consilfJl8e. If Incb roceipta. are not u) hand within three days of t.he delivery of the consignment on indemnity. on~, a definite statement in writing, .ta~ n the realons wby he cannot produce the·
receipt mul<!. be obt.a.ined from the consignee and submitted to the Claima Bect.ion. of the Traffic Manager's office." .
(b) Will Government please state: (i) whether the indeDlnity bond takes the place of the railway'
~ t
(ii) whether su('h eondit.ion prcvflils on the State-managed Rai1wR)8;. and
(iii)· whether t.his is in contravention· of the Agent's instructions pub-lished in that Railway'S Gazette No. 22 of 1985. dated the 28th October, 1935 .that:
"we ~t an remember that pa8sengen and merchants are our to~ a, .. whom we rely fol' the earnings of the Railway, and, therefore, allO for our hvehhood, If we do not treat them well Hnd d/'ive tlaem to patronising other mud .. of tranaport ... we will be the, slIfferers in the long rnn, aud will hav*, to bear thl' I'esnlting burdeD in the form of cut .• ira pay and other kinds of ret.renchment, including the discharge of surplu. staff"!
(c) Do Government propose to take action that will not cause this addi-· tional declarution from meri'.hants? 1£ Dot. why not?
The HOllOurable Sir Muhammad Zatrunab J[ban: (a) Yes. (b), (i). An indemnity bond is taken only when a railway rece:pt haa
been lost, mialilid or is for any other reason not forthcoming. Railways .. however. consider it desit'able to endeavour to secure the railway rece:p .. · wherever this is possible.
(ii) The practice on the different fmlwaY8varies. but, I believe. generally, the staR have instruotions to arrange to obtain railway receipt.,. when this is practicable.
(iii) No •. (0) Go'vemmEmt do not consider that their interference. is called for ia:
this matter. The trade interests concerned can, through their organ!aa-tions. arrange to diacWIB the matter ~ the ·:Administration;· .
. ". QaISLATIVB ASSBMBLY. [9TH MAROH 1986.
'1t> ... SSBNcuE ... mUNG8 JI'lX.O AT OBTAIN BUKS I'OB B ... CllR.6.ILWAYiBcr .... mOll ON TKB EASTlIlBN BENGAL RAILWAY. .
29,1. JIr • .&mar.dra .ath OhattopadhJ&,a: (a) Is it a fact that the 'rraoffic Manager, Eastern Bengal Railway, has inued a notiCe in hi.· Rail. way's Gazette No. 22 of 1935, dated the 28th October, 1985, in which it is stated: .
"A. a reeult of special checks the minimum average daily earning. from paaaenger 1.raftic have been fixed for the stations given below";
ta~ on )(utt'rl and Crew .taff including Crew Inspectors and Traffic Inspector • • ·,wiU be held responsible for the fall of average earnings beyond the fixed minima";
"The action tc.ken against the defaulting station where there is a faU"! (b) Will Government please state whether the passenger earnings are
, fjxed at (Iertam SlllllS f.>r each station? 11 so, how?
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Xhan: (a) I alll placing on · the table 8 copy of the notice. It does not contain the last of the three ,·extracts.
(b) Yes. The "min:mum daily earnings" figure is based on the a ~a . daily earnings for the station calculated on the total passenger eammgs for one year and during the period of special checks at different times
· throughout the year.
. ~. 744. ElUte,n Bengal Railu'fIY Gazette.
Case No. 817 C/O-Cheek_
Perl/illg •• 1 a'~ '.n earningd Ilt ,tati01I8.-As a result of special checks the · minimum average daily a n n ~ from paasenger traffic have been fixed for the stations
given below. The a .~ daily earning. from thil 8OUrCot for other stations will 'be publilhed in the Gazette from time to time.
2. St&!.ion Masters of I.he station., a. lOOn al the earnings have been pegged will · prepare a Atatement in triplicate showing average daily earnings from tbe p&8llengw
traffic and fixed figure aA shown hereunder, and give their explanation for any falling-off or ezoeptionnl increue in the remark rolumn of the Ftatement.. ThE' block foil is to he ~ at. the tat~on for record and the duplicate and triplicate copies are to be sellt to the Distriot. Traffic Superintendent concerned and DTB. Crewa, relpectively on the 2nd day of the following month.
3. The Diltrict officer will lubmit to the addreu of Dy.· Traffic Manager · (Commercial) by name a statement on the 10th of each month ahowing the names of the at&t·ion. on hi, diltrict where the t'OIDparative dilerence in earninga i. ei:her linGer or over 5 per cent. together with hi. remark. u to the reuon for fall or inCJ'8Ue and the action taken against the defaulting ltation where there is a fall.
4. Station Mastera and Crew staff includinlf Crew Inapectora and Tr.ffic Inlpeetora YiU be held reaponaible for the fall of average earninp beyond the bed minima.
5. Traffie Inspectora, Special Inapectora and Crew n ~ a will check the record foils of the atatementa submitted by the atatic:.na to see If there ~ an1 dilcrepanCJ' . ill worli:iDg out the averap earniDp from the SUDlIII&ry of Daill Traina Cuh Boob 'and report the reault of their checb.
.. (Bere follow. Iiat of .... nona-N«* priaW).
UNSTARKBD QUB8TION8 UTn ANSWBRS. lUI
P!aGVIBIbIf 01' GA.RA.GHPOR OPl'ICBR8 OM TIIB EASTBRN B ~ .RAU"WAY.
292. Mr . .&1IllrlDdra lfaUt. Ohactopaclh,..,a: (8) Will Govemml!nt .,Iease state, whether glU'agea are provided at the head offices at Calcutt. :and in the districts o'fthe Eastern Bengal Rnilway for the garaging of ·the motor cars of the gazetted officers:'
(h,1 If the answer to pRrt (a) 6e in thtl affirmative, will Government jpJeaac ",tate whether rent is charged for the ~ of the garages? If sc., whRt Eire the rates?
lCj If the answer to part (b) be in the negath'e, do Government propose to consider 'exploring this avenue to increase the revenues? If 'not, why not?
The HODOUl'able Sir Muhammad. Za.fru1lab. Khan: Government have no information. Enquiies are being made from the Agent, Eastern Bengal &ilwrry.
VIC'l'DIISATION 'OF THE MEmAL STAn ON THE EAST INDIAN RAILWAY I'OB DOING PRIVATE BUSINESS IN THEIB on DUTY HOURS.
293, Mr. Amarendra lfatb Obauopadhy.y.: (8) Is it a fact thAt IJnd'll" t~ Government Servants' Cenduct Rules the staff a.re not permitted to .(10 any business in their off duty hours?
(b) Is it also II. fact that. this rule hos been adopted by the EaR Indian Hailway?
'~ If the answeJ'j; to parts (11) Bnd (b) be in the affirmative, will (Jovemment please state:
(i l whet,her tlw meniHl stuff (lORlP. within the purview of this rule;
(ii) whether the menial staff are supplied with copies of the o ~ n
ment Servants' Conduct Rules printed in the vernacular; and
(iii) whether the ~ Ilre expl9.ined to the menial staff?
(0 I Do Government propose to tak.., an", action to prevent the t ~ milolat.ion of the menial staff who 8rt) not made Aware of all the rules Rnd .conditions that govern t,heir employment? If not, why not?
fte Honourable Sir KlIbammad Zafrullah Khan: (a) YeB, except with the previous sanction of the Administration.
,(b) Yes.
'(c), (i). Yea.
I(U) and (m). No.
i(d) There was no victimization in this case. It was obvious that the peon knew that he was doing wrong as he took care to hide from the .\1t1boritiea in the Central Formll Store that he was an employee of the 'East Tnd:an Railway and also did not inform the officers of the East Indian Railway n ~ at on that he was serving in the Central Forms Store. ~ peon obtained service in the Central Forms Store under falle pretence .. De would not have been engaged there had it been known there thal-Ia. was the servant of the East Indian Railw.y.
1118 ,LEGISLATIVE AIiSEMBI.Y. ~ MARCH 1936_
WBI3AU COJOUTTiI!lBS B8TABLI8BB!) ON STATB·X.AllA4IllliD ~~ .n .. ~ 294. Ill. Amarenclra _ath a~ a . a (8) Will Go"Vernmen" ploru;;e st",te whether the followillg come within tho 'scope .of· Welf$ft" Committees established on State.managed Railways? i'
(,':
(i) 8upply of wicks to Chitpore guards; '}':' (ii) suggestion thatpriorit y of Ij8ssing tha' guard>a 'examini.tioDr
should govern promotion to guards' posts insteadofaeniOl'iq-on pny; ,
(iii) handmg over tokens to drivers by guards; (iv) eligibility of Booking Clerks and Ticket- Collectors for ' ~~
tion t,o Crew-in-chilrge; ( .. ) ilU\uguration of: a temporary. selection ,gr.ade for' A' 'llaaa.,
guurds; ( "i) bB.se coins j and I '~ sane-tion for platform A. S. Ms. at Ranaghat, etc" etc.?
, . (b) If the answer to rrurt (a) be in tlw n at. ~, 3re Government pre-·
pored to consider taldng sllch act.ion that will euuse proper use being matte' of these committeesi' If, not, why not~
The Honourable Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: (a) and (b). o n~ ment have no informat:on. These are matters of detailed administratiott ,aDd: I am sending a copy of the question to the Agent, Eastern B ~ a . Railway, for such action as be may consider necessary.
BOOKING OF SPBCIALI.Y SET-ECTED GUARDS :BY SPECIAL TRAINS.
, ,2.9;5. Mr. Amarendra ]fath Ohattopadhyaya: (8), Is it n fnct that: 'the President, Calcutta District Welfare Committee of the 'Eastern Bengal R~ a , has stated at'themeeting held on the 20th November, 1935, that; ':ipeeialJy selected guards are booked by t-hese specials' and' has referred t() the Traffic Manual, Part II, Chnpter XVIII, page 279, in support of his decision? ,(b) Is it further 1\ fact that the special trains referred to are the Royal' pr Vicl:!regal and Inspection trains 'I " . (c) If the answers to parts (a) and (b) be in the affirmative, will Gov-ernment please state what is meant by "specially selected"? I ~ " (d) Is it ~ fact that the rJIle referred to by t ~ President of. 1 the Calcutta District Welfare Committee makes no mentlOn of selectea "or-specially selected ~' a to work these trains?
The Honourable Sir MUhammad Zafrullah Khan: Government hav.e DO-information. These are matters of detailed administration which must be 1000t to the local Il.ut,hor;ties to decide and Government are not prepared to' lSBlle any instructions. " " ., ,
I\M 1111 '!'JIB APPOIN'TKU'l' AND PROMOTION OJ' GUA:RDS ON THB :E'-,B'fDIt " , 'BENGAL RAILWAY. . , " '
J98. Mr • .Amarendra Ifath Ohattopadhyqa: (a.), a , t a ~t t a~, In'the Eastern Bengal Railway Traffic MaoURl, Pan II, rulee ha.ve beeJl, harned regClJ'ding the Appointmqut andprom()tioo ()f suaz:da2 ".:
,UNSTARRBD QCB8TIONS A:ND AMSWSRS •
.:' '; (b) 'if the '~ to part (g) -he in ·the' affirmative, will Government ~ aa . state : " " (i)' w}lether guards are O:ppo:nted dire6t to either class A or class B; , , .• " (ii) \vhethcr e)&IIR R is n"", senior post and is betttlr paid; and ,
(iii) whether prornotion8 fmOl d9s8 'A, to:,t11888 'B are only made by the Traffio Manager?
(0) II. it a fact that men who hove been o.ppointed as guards class A. ·,a.id who have reached the maximum pay of ' that class have not been pro-rpoted to cl889 :S, although there are numerous vacancies in that class? ~ B , why?
(d) 'Js'ito.lso it fact that men wllo h'o.ve beeOll.ppointed as guards elasa » 4ave on coufirmation been retnined on the minimum pay of that c)a88 ;and have been deprived of their increments? If' so, why?
"l'b.e Honourable Sir Muhammad Zatrullah Dan: (a) Yes. ',' (b), (i,:. Government are informed that under the rules referreti to b'li the Honoural-,k Memhel·. direct recruitmp-nt WIIS permissible both to
. ~ ' A lind to a~ B but direct recruitment to the highest 01888 is ,DO longel; permiRsibl£..
eii) Yes. (iii) Yes, on the l'('('!omlIlennatioll of the District ~ concerneoi
,.and with the as!'1istanc(' of 11 Selection C(lmmitt.ee. (c) TheJ'e R ~ no vo.cllncies in' ciass B. (d) No.
'PRoVISION 011' QUARTERS OR GRANT OF ALLOWANCES I'OR THE GAZET'l'ZD OI'J!'IOlllRS OF THlII EASTBBN BENGAL RAlLW4Y EMl'LOYlW IN THE HEAD OI'J!'ICES AT CALCUTl'A.
297. Mr. Amarendra .ath Ohattopadhyaya: (8) Will Government please 'state whether, the gazetted offICers of the Eastern Bengal Ra.ilway employed -in the head offices at Calcutta are provided with quarters, or are ~ allowances in lieu of quarters, or are required to make their own arrange-
';ments? . (b) What posts carry such nllow::mces, and what are the '1caleR? (c) Are those guzetted officers who live out of town and who travel by
tha,t Railway'S trains to attend officE' permitted toO do ao on their du.t7 ,paaaes? If not, what check iii ('xercised to aeetho.t there ia no abulle · of the dully PMS08 granted to them,?
(d) Huve any cascs recently occulTed where If&zetted omeers wefl, notieE'd to havemi!lusfld their duty passes to travel to offi(\{'? If BO, . what
-action has boen taken against them? . I
(e) What are the penalties for non-Sl.Lzetted staB' when they misuse the¥' · duty or privilen p.ses? '. " :
(f) Are gazetted and non-gazetted staff of Government treated alike in · the matter of punishments when they breach the rules? If not, what i. · the reMon for this discriminatory treatment?
, '(g) ,no.~ ~a t~ staB ~o n in o ~ but residing at o t .tat o~ granted concession tickets Rnd 'not ,the use of duty pa88ea '! If 80,' what is the reason for this difterential treatment t.o ,the lower paid servanl'll of
-.;the Crown ?
1118
'.fILl Honourable 8Ir, Jlubammad Z&IruJlU. Daa;', Government .... n o n~ as follows: '
(a) Quartel'8 are provided in: Calcutta for 18 officers ,only ;tht. ~, make their own arrangements and are given the house allC'lw-smce permis!lible under the rules,
(h) The 18 officers' quarters in Calcutta are allotted to various pc,st8. from time to time a1'l found convenir·ntand, wit.h the exrep-tion of the Ageut'l:! honse, nc.' specific posts.' ure ~ t ' entitled either to the Hajlway t ~o tohouse allowances. In the cases of of Beers who nre not provided with Railway
. qURrters, lin otl',cer hll8 to make hill own arl'lUlgemen!'J aud' if thE' rent of the accommodation tllken by him ~ o teu pet· cent. uf his pay, an allowance is gra.nted by tht" Railway f'quival£'nt to the nDlount hy whillh the rent actuully pIlid-' p.xceens t·en pE'r cent. This allowance ~ subject to a maximum limit of 12! per cent. of the offirer ''!'I pa:v. If the officler t!lkf'B furnished accommodation, he is required to pay 12! per cent. of his pRy instead of t·en per cent.
(c) and (d). I would invite the Honourable Member's attention· to my reph: to Dr. N, B. Kharp.'s unst,llrred question No. 61 asked in this o ~ On the 4th February, 1986·
{e) anrl (f). J lay a statement on the table $!'iving the requited information. The penalties apply to officers and Bubordi-nat,eB alike.
(g) ThE' non-gazettE'd staff are granted conceBsion ticketB and not. • PKSSE"S for daily travel to and from office. Ail ~a the
laUer pBrt of the question I would invite tha Hononrable Membt'!T''!t att,p,ntion to ~ replv to Dr. N. B. Khure's nnstarred ouection No. 61 B..'1ked in thin House on t.he 4th February, 1936.
PeIIOIHet /til' ~ we ur min't! and LoN of Fureign and Local Pril1ileqe Tir.ht 0nIer. IJ1Id PG/lH.B.
1. In future the penalties detailod below will be enforced in all 08II8II where a PaM or' Privil8ll8 Ticket Order ill millUlHld or irregularly uaed or lost either over the Home Line· or over Foreign Railwayll.
I. ExoeptiOllll can only be ~nt in _cial c_ 'mder Alffll'lt'll _ctinn. Where lID 8ltt'leption ill to be marle lother tban in the - "f miteratft IltafO the Head nf the Dtlpartmant .conoerned will obtain the IADctinn nf f.he Al(8Ilt. In thl! oue of illit<!rate . nat'f'. H a ~ of Departments are veeted with dillt'l'8ti"narv powe1' to inflict 1I',roh p'mishm8llfl All may be thoullrht fit. A monthly Btatftment Bhmtld however be BUbmltte' to the Agent or cui. where the puniBbment awardt'd is more lenient than that provided for.
3. The lltaft' .hould make themtl8lvea fully oon~nt with the .o ~ fIhe aBe or Privi181l8 Ticket Ord81'll and P_-.. 811 ~o an of tbe &111811 cannnt be aooepte<l ... an explan"tion whim an ~ a t ill bro\lllht to notice. In the cue of iII·t..rate lltaft'· before P_ or PrivillHl8 . Tioket Ordtl1'll are handed 0"'" to them. they .boUld be made aware of the limite of the oonoeeeiona and what is generally required of them.
4.
IrretllJlarit.y. 1. Obtainiog a Privilege Ticket
order or JIIIIIII for any (JIle who i. not a "'IIrUlar member of the hoollAhold and not actually w1lo11y dependent Oft this em-pJO)'8eo'
Penalty. FIrIt offen_fun fare and lI8D8 'tv to he _V8ied aad'
l'rivileae Ticket; 0rdeI'II or p ... ., be IItopTMICI for two yMn. 8e00nd oft'tlnoe-tll1mmary eli .. · m-.I.
I. Obtaining Privilep Tioket Olden Or P_ under falae . pretenOt!B or I18l1ing PrivUep Tioket Ordera or P_.
a. TraveUing without authority : ill • higher el.- with a l_ eI.. tioket ,obtained on & Pri, vilege Tiket Order, or with a lower olea PUB. or by mail or by a train on whioh travel· Una iB 1'I!8trict4!d.
p-a'ty.
Summary di-:u_J and liable to orIm1naI ~ ~t o ' Under SectiOB UO, I. P. C. ",
FuU fare and penalty to be I'8CIOvereci and Privilege' Ticket Orden or P_ to be IItopped filIo ODe year.
,. F01' altering or 8I'IIoIblg dates or Full fare and penalty to ~. Itoppage of' other antriee on Privilep Privilep Ticket Ordera or p.- for one year and , Ticket 0rdanI P_. liable to OI'iminal pro.eoution under SecUon 4615,
I. P.C. II. Travelling on PrivJ1ep Ticket
Order unexchanged for a ticket or tick ••
6. TNvelliDll on an expired date p_ or prior to the period for which it • valid.
7. Travelling on PUB or Privilep Ticket Dot ilaued to the em· ployee concerned.
Full' fare to be oharpd and Privnep Tieket Orden· atopped for one year. If the joumey ia performed over a Foreign Railway, the full penalty will be· enforced Ion the matterbeina o~ ~ any penalty already enforced for the irregularity over" the Foreign Railway.
Full fare and penalty to be recovered and lUeh dia, oiplinary action &a may be oonaidared n-.ary by the Head of the Department oonoerned.
Buch diaoiplinary /lOtion aa may be ~ neaM.· aa.ry by the Head of the Department' ooneernad anti liable for proaeoution but the employee in whOle favour moh P_ or Privilege Tioket haa been iaaued will be permanently debarr.ed from aU ' PaM and Privilege 'Tioket privilegf'8 in addition to II11ch penalty .. ~ fare, etc., .. may be· imposed.
8. Travelling without a tioket or Full fare and penalty to be recovered. pa ••
9. Unhooked luggage on Privi· lege Ticket or PUB.
If Dot within the free allowance, freight to be reaUaedl on the whole weight.
10. UnUMd P_ not retumed until a oaI1 haa been made for them or failing to return re-
Stoppage of Puaea for apenod of aUt montba.
ceipts for collected p8811811 to if. ling office (Paaa.hoidera must not therefore fail to de· liver P_ at dNtination).
11. The following penaltiN will be impelled for 1011 o ~.
.t o ~
I.Goldp .. Silver pII88 Nickel pua. . Card (_>...-
Penalty.
&.. A. P.
ea.t of replaoem_t. . 78 0 I> 0 0
Fimcl.. 4, 0 0 8econd el.. • 3 0 0 Inter. clUB ! 0 0 Third eIua 1 0 0
II. Duty and privilep'ebeque pUa. priviJep tieket order'and OOIloe.lori-: Firatcl.- II 0 0 Seoond 01UB J 0 0 Inter. cl.. I 0' 0 ThirdclMl •• 0 8 0
~~ B [9TH MAROH 1986.-Nature of 'Pnl8. Penalty.
Be. A.I' • .. m.-EDgiDe pa. • 2 0 0
Trolly pM8 • • • • 2 0 0 Luggage p6l8. . . 2 0 0 Authority Card of T. T. E'e. 2 0 0
Non_I. A loet -pMII. if 8Ii'-quently found, should be promptly returned to tIfe .duaing ..... for ~t on. Penalty must be waived very rarely even if the pus be .ncovered.
2. In calle of loal of receipt foil of duty cheqlle pall8eB, the p8Dalty ill ~ one for euperior lltafi and annaB eight for inferior ataff. .
3. In case of lOll of receipt foil of privilege pal8es, the penalty is ltoppage of privilege pas6l'a for a period of six months, but this does not preclude the empl"y ...
.. ·from getting .chool panel for their children over home and foreign lines. ..-4. The fM!nalty for 1018 of .. home line double jou",ey pa88 will be &8 (or one
pua evcn "hen ~ covcn both outward and return journeys. S. The POlUIolty for 10&8 of Ad,interim cal'd pa88es is the 88me &8 for card (_son)
,puaea. 12. Non·insertion of date of I'ommencement of journey on cheque palBeli of all
·daaMl over the home and foreign linea: (i) Pa ~ holders must endorse their pa88e. either in ink or indelible pencil or
coloure!! Pf'ncil, before commencement of their journey. otherwiae the PII.SS -will b.. ilwalid and the holder will be required to pay full fare and
a ~ for t:le entire journey covered by the paaa. 1'icket collecting r.tali must enforc<l the penalty or report all cases of pa_ not 80 endorsed.
iii) Patlres for illiterate .taft may be endorsed by 1'ickPt Collectors or any other HniJway servant, who should give their designation in full when endorsing r .. sses.
Itlter and ·third c10Hs rBls.holders, whether illiterate or "iJlel'wisE'. sbould be lPecially advi"ed 01 this new rule when making over the passes to them for uae. The pnalty }lTesdbed. in rule (1) thereof applies equally to the illiterate 8taff.
13. l.::oilt'Ction of Passes at Destination : (1) ~ is incumbent 011 the holder of pall to deliver it up at the destination
·atation and to obtain the Ticket. Collector's receipt on the receipt foil: My OIIlission on the part of the Ticket Collector to ask for and o ~ the pails Bnd sign the receipt will 110t be taken ad exonerating the paBs,holder, who, jf necessary phould report the non,collection of ~ palMI to tho S;a.tion MlLBter lind nlake over this pRIll to him, obtaming hi& receipt. Failul'tl to comply with these instrnctions will render tlte
-employee, in whoBe favour the paM was iaBued, Iiahle to the forfeiture of olle or more · of the pB81eB for which he iJ eligible.
(2) This rille 8hall apply equally to the illiterate 8taff, who should he warned of their rBapOnslt.ility when pRsFes are made over to them.
(3) The Tic1tet Collector should collect, lIign and fill in all the columna of the receipt foil of the paSReR legibly, 80 8& t.o cnlure correct verification by the Chief Accounts Offic!!r. Failure to comply with the above in8trnction8 will render the Ticket
· ~o to «ncemed liable to diaciplinary action. S. The Rbove penalties will be enforced where applicable in tbe C&8e of miluse
· or irregular use of concesaio.l ticketa.
ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE RZGJ!>TRAR, JOINT STOCK COKPANJBS, DBr,RI.
!AA. Bard&!' .an~a Blnrh: (n) W:lI Govp.rnment be pte-Asl'll to stRte the longest t ~ tnkP.n bv t.he Re<YistrRr, Joint Stock o~ an , Delhi, in ~ n joint stock oompanies?
(b) Are GovemmAnt awere .,{ th .. fact that Company promoters are harARsed by the staff of the Regiat.:ar·, Joint Stock , o .P' ~ , while registering oompanies? . . . ,. l
(e) If 80. Are Government pJlepared to take neoesaaty ·steps to remo"e ,tb.. grievances? .
•
VN8TAIlRBD QCBlfloN9 AloD AN8WI1U •• 2119
'l'be BODO.able Sir JluhaDunld ZI1ru1lah Khan: (a) The time taken for registration is dependent on the production of all necessary documE'ntli in proper form. Provided ttll documents suhmitted for registration are in order, registration is usuall'y effected within a week.
(b) Nc, Sir. Government understand that evel), "faciJity iB given to compan.Y promoterll in filing doC'uments.
(c) Does not arise.
INDOOB PATD:N'rS TBBA'l'BD AT TO VIO'J.'OBU ZBJTABA P ~, DBLBl.
299.S&rdIr KangAl 8tDgb: Will Government be p·leased to place OD the table of this House a Rtntement showing the following detaila:
(a) the total number of indoor patients treated at the Victoria. Zenana Hospital, Delhi, as private and &s public indoor patients: and
(b) the amouu!; of fees taken from 'Private patients by the hoU18 surgeon dUl'ing the years 1984-85-86?
Sir Glria Shankar Bajpai: (a) The numbers 01 indoor patienta t.reated at the hoapital . werE' as follows:
In paying In [(81181'&1 Total. ward. ward,
193' 602 2,207 2,'709 19311 710 2,G8! 8,16' 1936 up to Uth' February 86 389 "8
No patients 81'e treated at t ~ hOMpit.al I\S private patients. Those patient! who wish to have n pl'ivltte room or cottage ward have to pay for this "pecial accommodlltion, Ilnd all payments rPceived from t.hE'se patieuta are credited in full to the hospit'RI funds.
(b) Nil.
HABDER LABOlTB GIVEN TO INDIAN Plu80NEB8 THAN THE BRI'rl1Dl PBISOIfEBS.
BOO. Seth Bajl Abdoola Baroon: Will Government be plt<lIt.ed to .tate wnether Indian prisoners are given harder l.bour than the Britilh prisonera? If 80, are Government prepared to equalize the labour in the CBse of both? If not. why not?
The BonoUiable Sir Bemy Oraik: Tasks are allotted to prisoners aft.er due consideration on medical gl'Qundll and with due regard ~ the capaclt,y r.haracter. previous mode of life and antecedents of the prisonera. 'rbe rules Jriade no racial distinrtions between priAf.lners. The other part, of the question, therefore. do not arise.
DIRAIlILlT\' PIUIIIJONI'I TO INDIAN HOJ.J)IBBB.
301. Seth Ball Abdoola JIarooD: (1\) Ts it a fart th'\t penliona totndian rnilitRry "soldiers who were disabled in the field, foreign or military •• !ftce ill admissible from the date of their discharge. vide parqraph 84- of the Financial Hegula&tions for the ~ in India, Part I?
2120 LltGlSLATlVE A8SBM'BLY. [9TH MARon 1988.
(b) Will Government please state whether under tho Regulations for the Army in India, respoDlribility of allowing pensions rests with Govflrn·· ment, and, whether no pension has been allowed to the numerous soldiers. entitled to pensions, and relatives of thoSEl who were killed in action, and died on ~' Service, nnd died of wounds ~ in action or are miSBing'l If so, why 'I
(c) Did not Army Instructions (India) No. 271 of 1920 provide continua-t.ion of family all(,tments, or an advance of at least six months' pension to the relatIVeS of dead or missing IndiBn soldiers, till the final settlement of their l,ension claims'/ If so, will Government be plet\sed to state in how muny easas advantage of these orders has been given 'I If not, wLy not? Are Government now prepared t.c-giv:) the benefit of these orders to the persons entit,led to it 'I
(d) Is it not a fact that at the time of Indian ·soldie1'8' retirehl&nt or invalidment, promises were made (in the light of paragraph 84 of .the FinanC'i9.1 Regulations for the Army in India, Part I) to send their pensions at their home addresses, when settled by the pension sanctioning authority?
(e) Is it a fact that when such promiRes were not honoured and the pEinsione1'8 applied for the same, they were allowed p.msions either. from the date of their first application, or from the dBte Qf their IrE'sll Modical Boards 'I If so, why 'I
(f) Why were the soldiers, who were disabled in the Beld during the Great War ~n Waziristan Operations, 1919-1924, not allowed theit pensions ,t the time· of their invalidment and why, on their now appl)ing for tile anme (alfter patiently waiting for such a long period), are they put before a fresh Medical Board (after the expiry of about 20 years)? Is it a fliet that their disabilities are now being declared due to "Old Age" by the fresh Medical Boards and thus they are being deprived of their pen· lions? If the reply is ill the II.tlirmativtJ, are G<Jvernment prepared to reconsider such cases in the light of Army Regulations in force at the time of their discharge, if they are more suitable to the pensioners, and if not, why not?
(g) Wby are Medical Officers instructed under pamgraph 4 of Circuluf No. Z 945·1 (D. M. S.), dated the 24th July, 1924, from the Director, Medical Bervioas in India, reproduced as an nn~ to India Army Order No. 93U of 1924, RA under 'I
"4. Aa questions whether ~ t .B are attributable 10 military service or not are to be decided 1I01ely by medical boards it i. incumbent on presidents and members of such board. to exerciee their POWB1'8 in theee matters wit.h due regard to the interut.e of the State."
(h) Is t ~ anta of paragraph 1077, Army Reguiations, India, Volume I (1915 edition) being siven toO t,he ciaim{lnts of family pension claims? If not, why not? .
Mr. Q ••• 1'. Tot\eDham: (a) to (b). Pensions are admissible from the date following that of discharge, if Burh discharge is accepted 88 being directly attributable to field, foreign or military service. There are no grounds whatever for the Honourable Member's apprehenAion, on whIch moat of his enquiries seem to be based, that there are numerous e:z:-soldiers who are entitlea to pensions under the rules, but who have not received them. In the circumstances, I do not propose to "deal in detail
I:NSTARRKl, QUB!.4TIONM .'Nl> ANSWBUH. IltJ
wit.h these ~ . If. how6\'er. hI' knows. of ~' Individual ~a in 'which the rules appear to have heen ' ~ . lind if he will be ao. good M to lIt'nd t.hem to me ona ~ . I shKIl be quite pl·epared. Ill'; I. 11!lve t' ~' told thl' HO\lAfl on n~' ()('cRRions, to look into them.
RBOBUITMENT 'TO (''J&RICAI. E!'ITARLISHMJ(NT IN THE OFFII'F.H IN HoIiBAY
(TNDKR THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT.
302. Mr .•• 11. oJOIhl: Will Government be pleased 10 stuttl:
(a) whether it is a fu.ct that reoruitment to clerical estabiislullent ill the offices in Bombay under the Central Government, such 8S the Posts and Telegraphs, Income-tax, Accountant Gem"rlAl, etc., is made from amongst, the oandidates belonging to the Bombay Presiclency;
(b) w'hether it is a fact t·hat in the ouse of recruitment to t.he clerical t . ~ t of the Htatutory ltailway Audit Offioes, .ttached to the respective State Railways, the Auditor General has ruled that it should be made from amongst, the candidates belongin:.; to tht I'r"F;idel1cy in which the office is situated and to the areas through which the Railway runs:
(c) if the answers to parts (a) aud (b) be in the affirlllative. whet·her they are prepared to issue necessary instructions to the Agents and the Chief Accounts Officers of the State Railways to follow the practioe indicated in part (b) above in the matter of recruitment to clerical and allied establishments under t,heir control; and
(d) if t.he reply to part, (c) ubove be in Uw nE'gati\'(', t,hl' rml80ll11 therefor?
Mr. P. :a. Bau: (II) I uuden;tund this polio)' ill followed in the Post. and· Telegraphs Department lind t.he OftU!(' of t,hp Acc!ountont (}enBIRI. Bombay.
(b) Rec:ruitllleul ill the tn.t to ~' UMiI,,· .. ,· Audit t ~ ill mRde in sooordance with tht, instruotions laid dewn in Art-ieJE' 4.q D of thE' AudIt Code, Volume l.
(l') and (d). I would refer my Honourable friend to the rf..'ply give., to the starred qUflfltkll1 Sr,. rn I flRked hy SRrdnr Sant Singh on the 22nd AllgDl!t. 1984.
SANO'l'I.oN .oF AN ADDmONAL POST OJ' ASSISTANT ACCOUNTS OI'FJOBK IN THR
..cmBF AOOOUNT8 OJ'll'lOB, ORBAT INDIAN PBNINSfTLA RAn.WAY.
303. Mr. 5 ••• oJOIhl: Win Government be pleased In state:
(a) whether it is a fact that nn "dditional permallcnt post (gazet.ted) of an Assistant Accounts Officer has been sanctioned by them in the Office of the Chief Accounts Officer, <treat' TndiAIl
.. Peninsula Railway since about Jtme, 1985; and
(b) if the reply to pm (al be ~ t ~ Bt . the circumstuiilltlS in whioh and the reasons,... which t ~ post hU bt'len ·I.daed to the oadre?
•
2122 LIWISJ,ATIVE AIHfEMIJ[,Y. [9TlI MARCIl ~.
Mr. P. R. RaU: (0) .Pt.lrJnRllcnt pOi't of an Assistant Accouuts Offioer lwpt in abl\Y:lnCe during the t ~ o ' cmnpHign was , .~ ill July, 1935.
(b) The post had to be re ,·ived as ii W{l.S found that with the depleted strength it \vI'S impl)lIsible to cnrrJ Ollt, t ~to the wl)rk of the office and the inilpectiolls of n t nt ~ und ('xecutin offices of the Railway. .
O.ITIOBBS OF THB INDIAN AUDIT AND ACCOUNTS SBRVIOB 'l'BANSJ'BBBBD ro THB RAILWAY AOOOUNTS BDVlCB SINOB THB RBPARATION 01' AUDm J'BO:M ACCOUNTS.
304. Mr ••••• J'oahl: Will Government be pleased to state: (8) the total number of officers of the Indian Audit and Accounta
Service transferred to the Railway Accounts Service since the separation of Audit from Accounts on Hie State Railways up to March 1935;
(b) the tot.al number of officers directly appointed to the Hailway Accounts Service since t.he sepnrntion scheme;
(c) the total llumoeJ' of subordinates promoted to the gazetted posts in the Railway Acoounts Service since separation scheme;
(d) the totul number of officers of thc Indian Audit aud Accounts. t,nken in as attached officers for training, und subsequently posted as permanent officers in t.he Statutory Railway Audit Offices and the period of training of each officer;
le) whether these officers were trained at the expense of the Rail-ways, Bnd if so, thc total expenditure charged to the Railways· up to March. 19lJ5; aud
(f) ,,"hether both ill i.hl' lIleIllOl'lUl<lUIII f)f the Financial Commissioner of Railway", and that of the Auditor General on the soheme of separation of Audit from Ac.counts presented to 'and approved by t.he Railway Standing n n ~ o tt ~ priOl' to the introouet;ion of t.he scheme on the State RaIlway!;. no provision for the training of such officers at the expense of t.]}e Railways was made; !'.nd if 'so, whether the Stann-ing I"imUlc(' Comn:ittee which npproved of the scheme wail informed of the matter; if not, why not?
Mr. P. B. Bau: (a) 16 posts in the Indian Uuilway Accounts Se"1(:e nre reserved for offi(,en: of the> Indian Audit and Account", Service wb(. are treated U!\ on <leput4lt.ion while PlUployed ill t.he Rsilway Account& Department.
(b) Ten including three officers directly recruited by the Auditor General for the Railway Aeoount·s Rervioe through the 1928 competitivp. l'xaminRtion fol' Indinn Audit nnd Accouut-s Service.
(c) Nine. (d) The total Ilumber of officers of Indian Audit and Accounts posted
t(l Railway Audit om""" for training Binee the separation of Railway Audit from Railway Acoountll to 31st March. 1985, W88 rune. The period of tr . .uping a ~ Rt'MI'ding t() l'il'Oumstances of eRCh cue from t.wo monlih.· tc nine months. .
2128
(e) '1'he reply to the first part, d tIDe question is in t,he affirmative. The infol'maHon for the ~ on part of tIlt' qUf':.:tion il'l not readilv avail· aoie. .
(f) Tht' t·xpenditurr-ill cOJllIectio(l with such t,ruining ~ inconsiderublc. It WIlS not important t>nough to hIlV(- found pl:U'l!' in the memof'mdll referred to, :md for t hI! sllme reason I!pe('ifh-apprm'al of the Flt-anding l"inancl' Cl)Jhmit,t('t' iOI' i I Will.: c'onf!'joered uunf"cf'!!sary.
EXPENDITlTltE ON ACCOUNT ot THE V ABIOU8 AOOOtJNT8 MACBJNEij .~ IN THE RAILWAY CLEARING AOCOUNTS OFJI'IOE, DELRI.
305, Mr. N ••• J'0Ih1: Will Govcrnment he pleased to state: (8) t.he total costs paid on Ilcconnt of the vul"ious accounts machiueIl
installed in t,he Railway Clt'aring Accounts Office, Delhi;
(b) Oil the basis of pnrt (Ill nhnvt', thi> o\'ernge /tnnunl expenditure thereon;
(c) the average annual expendit,ure on IIcCOUllf of hand method if I"Psortecl to in pllle(' of mac·hinl:' I1wt,hod; aud
(d) whether they IIr(' pl'epared to consider the reversion to hand method in view or the iDipellding expiry of the guarantee of the machine ill t.he saie] office by the end of tbis year?
Mr. P. It. If.au:(a) l"rllUi l!J27·28 to cud of March. 1986, the total (,Ol't in cOllnection wit.h machines instftJled in the Rnilwa.v Clearing Ac("ount-l' ()fli('l' if! R!I. 1),47,947.
(b) 'rh(, t' ~ ' nTII III III C'XllPl1llitlll'(' on the ubove basis work" up to Rli. (\0.883.
(c) The iustullut.ion of mnchines was due to their being found cheaper t.han human Il!;(ency but 8S th!' ~ n House" nnd "other than (!learing House ,/ traffic are dealt with on entirely different methods it is
~ t f,(. /livt· dt'finit.-el'Hmatpl! of the (,OSt. of dcalinA' with t.he SHllIe amount of tmffic by the two mebhods.
(d) In view of the reeent reduction Of n ~ of pRy the possIbility of rpversion to the head and hand method (.f apportionment of foreign tr:\ffic eamings is being invetltigated.
eoMPETITIVE EXAMINATION JI'08 CLOIc.tL APJ'0INTJlDT8 IN TRB R·AILWA1· CLEARING Aocotnn'8 OJ'll1OJ1,
306. Mr .•••• .J0Ih1: Will Government be pleased to state:
(a) how many men were admitted to the entrance competitive examination for clerical appointments in the office of the Chief Accounts' Officer, RaHway Clearing Account& Office, held by bim in his oftlce in 19815;
(b) whether it is a fact that a Bum of R.. 5 per candidate w .. oolleeted as fee therefor;
(0) the total amount collected OIl that ~ o nt iD 1986 and 1986: (d) the amount paid to t.he omoereof the .aid ofBoe for work done
in connection with the aaid examination in 1985. from out of the feet collectecl;
2124 1,9TH MARCil 1986.
(e) the balallce left and how' Government propose to utilille it; (f) whether it is a faet t,hat the eXllmiDRtions were held on Saturday
and Sunday; (g) whether it is a fact that on Saturd"y, the entire stall of the
General ~o nt Branch and that of the Statutory Audit office were given a full holiday;
(h) the total wages of the staff, including officers, both of the Audit and Aeeounts offices, horne by tl!e RailwRY for that day;
(i) whether it is a fnct t,hnt in other State Railways nnd Govern. ment Offiees only II SUIll of Re. 1 01' Rs. 2 is charged as fee fO\' 1\ candidate for such examinlltions; and
(j) if the reply to pnrt, (i) above be in the affirmative, the reasons for cb&rging a fee of Rs. I) from candidnt,es in ttle case of the Railway Accounts office? '
Kr. 1' .•• B.aU: (a) 63() eaudidates were IIdmitted in the eXllminatiou held in February, 1985, Rnd 41'i1l in t,he exnminntioll held in n"l'cmher, ]980,
(b) Yes. (c) Th,. total amouuts l'olleet,:,d in the I\n: eXlIlllinlltion" were Hi;, 3,050
nnd Hs. 2,265, respectively. No eXflmination h8l; so fur been held in Imm, (d) A sum of ~, 740-10-0 WIIS paid to the oflicel's ~ t I1S exnmint.rll
fOl' the FebruQr\' examination, }<'or the examinution held in December Examiners were" selected by the Delhi lTniverllit:v /lnd NIP pa:vment. mArl .. to them nmounted to Rs. 589-6-0,
(e) The entire fee;; c'ollected were credit,ed to Government, liS 'miscel-laneoull receipt!:;· lind ull expendihm' ill eonnt'etion with t.ile (·xRminr.tion'l flebit.ed to working expenses,
(fl The eXIlminat,iollS were not held on fI ISunda\"" One of HI(' dd,\!4 011 which the s('('on'Ii' (,'CllminBtion WRI' Iwld wall /I RBt. a~'.
(Jr\ Yes. (1I) ~ cluelltioll o ~ not arise. (i) 111 State Hailwav Account Offices the fee was Us. 5 in all R' ~,
1n other Departments ;,f State Ra a~ and in other Government Der.apt-nt~ fees "hnrged for reeruitment, examinations a ~' ~'.
m The fee wall ~ Ilt. Rs, I'i .to ensure that, I'll. expendit?1'f'. ill con· nection with the exammRtion8', tJIZ.. fellS to t'XRmmers, nnt ~ ,,"d st.ationerv, invigilat.ion and other incidental charges, should be fully covered hy the aUlount r('Rlised, ThE' qUMtion of rednC'tion of t.he fee if; under l'tXRmination,
EX.UIIl{ATIOl( POB RJDCIBUlTMENT TO TBJI (''LBBlCAL LINB HELD 1l{ THE TBLBPROl{B RBVDUB ACOOUNTll'G OnrICB, DBLHl.
307. 8ard1r IaDt 8l1lg1l: (8) Is it a faot that: (i) an a ~at on for recruitment to t~ clerical line ~a~ held in
the Telephone Revenue AocountlOg Office, DelhI. '10 June, 1985, wbich was 8ubsequentl;}' canoelled by the Postmaster General, Punjab, BDd a Second 8X&mination was held on 10th September, 1985; and'
UNS1'AllREJ> QUESTIONS AND ANSWISIUI. 212&
(ii) one Muslim candidate, aged 27 years, was allowed to sit at both the examinations referred to in part (i) above and a Hindu candidate who was below 24 years of age at t.he time of the first examination, was not allowed to sit at the second exami-nation for reasODS of age?
(b) If the facts are us stated in part (a) (i) and (ii) above, will Oov'ern-ment pleas6 state the reason for the differential t.rl'otment in t.he .two ('ORaFl
cited above?
'l'he Honourable Sir I'rank Boyce: (1I), . (i) ond (ii). Yes. (b) l'he . Muslim candidat.e, who was a graduate, had lllretl.dy worked
in the Telephoue Revenue Accounting Office, Delhi, 3S 8 temporar,) (·l"rk fllr over two yeHI'!l from Beptember, 1982 and his work during that period waH highlv Imt.isfl\ctol'y. He was, therefore, allowed to a ~.a ' lit the ('xamination III>l n speci!ll ('ose although he had exceeded the age Unlit. There were 110 Hilllilur .;pecial fenturea ill the cose of the Hindu cundidute and, liS hi!' IIge hlld tlll'eady exceeded 24 yenrs und there wa') no Pl'OlIl'cct of hiM lIecurillg an llppointmlmt befort' he hud exceeded {·he age limit flf 2/i ,vellrs, l.te Will! Hot n)Jowed to appeur Rt t.hf' second eXRmination.
UNHEALTHY NON-}'AMlLY STATIONS IN THE DBBAJAT POSTAL DtVIBIOJf.
308. Sardar Sant Singh: (H) Are Government lLware thut there are u laJ'ge nllmbE'" of n ,~ t Ilon-famil), stat.ions in the Derajat Postal Divi-Bion, where staff of the Post Office are required to serve ',,-ithout their fnmilies for Ii term of two years?
(b) If the reply to part (a) Ilbove be in the amrmat.ive, do GovernmlSnt relllizc the hardships expprimced by the staff in serving in such unhealt,hy Imd an~ o loculit.iC'R and on Account of prolonged separat·ion frODt t heir family memhers?
(c) Do Government propose 10 rerlre!lK t.he grievance of postal staff of t.he Derajat Division?
Xr. G. V. Bewoor: (1\) o t~ t art' ;IWR/'{' fhut there are a few noioriouslv unheulthv ~tnt o nnd 11 certain number of healthy and ullhenlthy non ~ stntiotJ!'; ill the Dt'l'ajat Postal Division. t~ l11'e ordinRrily required to perfoml a term of one year's duty in the not;.niousJ,v unhealthy shtiollfl (md of two ycnr>l' duty in the non-family IIt,ations.
(ll) Yat; uUll J IIIn.v mId for the Honollrahle Mt~ t ' information that (iovernDlent hove sanctioned l'ompflllsatory allowances 01' special pRy in order to ~ n t t ' the £Itnff for the hnrdships involved.
(e) 'rhe ~t on of the possibility of lIJorli!ying tht, existinK ordorK in !lome respect!' iF; under l'xnminntion ;n cormi ci-ion with !l represeutati.)I! }'('ceivecl from the Ali-IndiA. l'ol!tnl !lml Rnilwuy Mail Service Union.
AGE-LIMIT lo'OB RECRUITMENT TO CLEBICAL LINE IN THE POSTf! AND TlDLBGBAPBS D2PARTM1D1T.
309, Sardar Sut SIqh: (a) Is it a fact that for recruitment to clerical'line in the Posts mid 'relegraphi Department, the age-limit hOli been, prescrihed 8S 25 ~' a !lnd tbat the ht'o.ds of Postal Circles lira empowered to employ perllOlI" in ~ R ellr;!·" "'-fOn lip to the Age of '¥i years?
2126 I.EOUIJ •• o\'rIVB ASSKMBI.Y. InTI{ MAllcn 1006.
(b) Are (.tovenlllJent; sware thut the l'ostwast.er General, Punjab and North-West ~' ont Circle, has issued r" general order-that no candidate exceeding the a.ge of 24 years be allowed to appear at; ~ a nat on for olerical line, irrespective of his qualiti(lations or family claims?
(0) If the reply to parts (a) and (b) above be in the affirmative will Government please state why thu gc,meral rule os given in part (a) ;lbove has beeQ. modifie(l by the Postmaster General, Punjab and North-West Front,ier Circle, Lahore?
The Honourable Sir I'rank Noyce: (0) The fact is not exactly Be stai:<:d by t;he Honourable l\1.cmhpr. 25 ,Ves1'8 is ordinarily t,he ma.ximum a ~
limit to he applied at tllp limp of actunl appointmpnt and Head,. of CirclOA haVE' diiICretionury power to appoint, ollly in cxC'eptionlll ~ R,
person" whol'.k' age ~ ~ Yfars hut doos not exceed 28 .vears. Tho selectioll I)f 8uitable nnd qualified candidat,es is, hf)wever, usually made somo t.ime bdorl' V))('Rllcies QC'hJRUy o~ '
~ Thl! orders of ~ 1'ostmnsf:.er-Oem'l'fl! to which the Honourahle Member refers arf' to t·ll(' efi?ct that (landidates admitted to the examina-tion for recmitmE.'nt to clericnl. I'Oilth ~ ordinarily he between til6 nges of lA :!IHI 24 hut t,hnt If t·h<.>r{' DI'(' l'x('f'ptionnl c'Dses in whit'll the l'p.laxBt.ion of tllf' nppel' ~ ' limil nppl'lm: justifie(l the,\' should he suh-mitt{'o to him for orderR.
(.) Doe" not arise,
RIIMOVAT. OF .4,PPRovED CANDIDATES FROM WAITING LISTS BY THE POSTMASTER
GENERAL, P£TN.TAB AND NORTH-WEST FRONTIER CmCLE.
310. S&Idar Sant Singh: (II) ~ it 11. fnc'l, thut in the Punjab aud North-WcF!t Fronti:w C'irr.le, n lurgc lIumber of ('undidntes for clerical line have bePII waiting for I'mplo:nllent for HI£' l!li;t five to Ijix yerll'!! Rnd tllllt \'ery ~ t , th.: Postmustf'l' Genet'lll, PlInjnb and North-West Frontier Circle, has issued (.rders thnt all the 'lpprovcd (,Bndiclnh's who hnve /lttained the age of 24 ~' 'n ~ he I'NllO\'ed from tile WRiting liRh: n' t ~
of theil' family elnims !lnn long durnLion of candidature?
(b) Is till' l'os\;)l1llsf.el' Henel'lll f·mpo\\·p.rf'd t,() f'lmploy persons in the clerical lille up to Ih(\ age' of 27 :,·en1'll?
(0) If the repl.\' to parts (a) 1111<1 (b) above be in the affil'mative, will Governml'ut pleusl\ t tt~ how fill' Ua> !lction of the Postmaster General, Punjab, is justifiecl and whether they propose to take steps to do jllsticlI to the llpproved candidates who have been removed from the waiting lists ?
The Honourable Sir !'rank K01ee: (a) The reply to the first part of the question ill in t,he n.ffirmativ(l I1.nd 1'.0 t,hp IIPcond PRrt in t ~ negative.
(b) YPiI, hut, onl,v ill <,xc<'pt,ional cnilpil.
(e) ])01'1'1 1I0t. IIrlfw,
TOWN IN8PECTOR OF POST' OFFICES AND CAMP CLERK!! IN POf>TMAf>TJ:B (lBNERAL'S OFFICES.
311. Sar4ar Santo Singh: (n) 18 it a fact that the appointments ol Town Inspectors of Post; Offices and Camp Clerks to officers attached to Post Bnd Telegraph Circle Offices, though 'sanctioned in the ordinBry clerioal timp-Rcaleil of pay. carry a speoial allowance with tlHlm?
11NMTAUHI!:D QI:KS1'IONS AND ANSWRRR. 2127
(b) Is it a fact that tenure of oharge in the case of Town Inspectors has been limited to three years in the case of anyone official?
. (c) If the answers to part.s (a) nnd (b) above be ill the affirmative, wIll Government ple.ase state why no slloh limit is prescribed in the case of Camp Clerks? '
(d) Will Government please state if it is a fact, that Muslims have alone been Cnmp ('Iprk" in Postmaster Ol:'rwl'al't; ()flicps for tilP IURI foul' venrs? If so, why? •
The Hon01l1'&ble Sir J'raDk BoycI: (11) AppointmentR of 1'own Inspec-tors of Post' Offil'l:'l'I ill the orclinar,\' time-scales of pay carry special pay; but camp cl('l'ks to o ' ' ~ in thl' Posh; Illlcl ~ n r,ircl(' offices get; no "pepinl po.\'. .
(h) YtIR.
(<') ])(1('1' not !trill!' ill vit'\\' of tlw I'tlply to )1l1l't (II).
(el) ;-';0. Till' 1Il'('OIIlI pllrt o '~ not· ~ '.
SHOW!' ~ ' ' ~ , AND ~ .
SIGNATURES AND THUMB IMPRESSIONS OF VILLAGERS 011' TrIP.: VILt.AGES OF BAKWADA TAKEN ON BLANK PAPBRS.
Mr ••• V. Gadgil: (u) Will (Jovemmtlut. be pJeslit'd to state whether
UNOON. it is t,rue thnt, the authorities are obtaining signatures and tlllllllh-impr!'ssiollR frolll dllngers of the 24 villages of Barwoda
011 hluuk a ' ~, whiell (villugE"R) tilt' Chief of Limhdi ill ('IHiming bS$)k from th", Hritish (rtl\'!'I'lIl1Wnt:'
(h) Will (;O"t'I'nTII('nt ,,11'1'11'1" stntt' wllt-ther the nSSUrl1UClC' givcn b,), the Governnwnt of ]mlin, HII\\ t '~ Yillnges will not: bc trnnsferred back to Limhdi Dllrbm' wit,hollt thl' eonsent of the pf'olJle ~ on n . holds good?
(c) ~ till' ntt.ention of Uovernment, been drnwn to the allegations made ill the issue of the 24th February, 1986, of the Uujaruti daily paper .Janmabhumi of Bombay, in which it is stated that the authorities are obtaining thumb-impreRRions lI,nd Slignlltufes BS stated nbove?
(d) H11Vt' (;OY(JnUlll'nt received nny commllnicat!on from the Barwada Praia Mandai, protfosting ngainst the nction of t, ~ authorities conoerned? If 80, HfP ' 'n ~nt prl"jlnrE"d to iqMu(' neC'611l1ory orderR to restore conft-den('P?
. (e) Are Uovernment prepared to obtain the consent of the peorle oon-oemed by a plebiscite, supervised over by an independent judicia autho-rity from British India'
Sir AubnJ KMcaUI: (n) 'I'he Government of India have no authentio information 011 the point.
(h) ThE" n"sl1mnce given in this House on thE' BOth March, 1985, hold. rood.
(c) Yes'.
(d) Yes, the communication it; being passe<l on to the Government of 80mbay who are t.hH authority primarily concerned.
(e) Government cnnnot commit themselves to any particular method .t this stAge.
2128 UWISLATIVE ASSEMBr.Y. 1.9TH MABCH 1986.
Mr. If. V. GadgU: Mav .1 IIHk II !lupplementllry question? I am not ~ about. the method. . Whatever method beadopt.ed, will Government
Ifjlpoint lin independent juclicilll :llIthorit,v t,o supervise over it?
Sir Aubrey Metcalfe: That would be part of the method regarding which 1 ennnot ('om mit (ioVf·nnnent· nt presellt.
:\IJ<JHHA<H: R ~ HIH :'.IAJES'L'Y THE KINu MP ~ .
Mr. Preaident ('I'lw o n t~ Sir Abdur Hllhim): 1 h"ve received the following M~'R from Buckinghnm Pnlnce in ~o t on .with the Mes-a~ ' of Concbleu('e ",hi('h the House n<iol'ted tIl(' other dllv on the occasioD
of the (ll'nth of HiK Inh. :\fllj.'IIt..,· King George V. Tlle l\f£'ssnge is:
(Tho'! IIl!II&p was ,ecelved by Lbe Alaembly ltandlng.)
"1111 Imperial Majesty, The Klnl-Bmperor, commands me to iDform you th.lt HI' and QUeen IIa.ry have received with great appreciation the motion adopted on the Std· February by the Indlar. LegllliaUYI Aaaembly Iitting WIder your Prealdency 311d' forwarded through Bill BlleeUency the Viceroy, to,ether with a copy 01 thl oIIc\.,\[ report 01 thl lpeechee UIa\ ware theD made. BIll Imperial Maj.ty bBl been deeply Impreued by the eenUmenta of Bill Indian lubjecta on t.hII sad occ:aaiou which ware 80 admirably relectacl In tile apeechel of the Leaden of UIe Allembly. The devoUon, of wlllch The KlDg II BIIured, w1U enooura,e HIm In cUlcharlinl the ,nat 1'8Ip<Inllbll,.. ltlll; to which Be hal now been ClUed.
(Sd.) B '~ 21th :rebluary, If/H.
nO<] ciFiNEHAL B ~' ' ' ' Of' IH<1MANDH.
~ S'l·AGE.
Mr. President ('l'hc H.onoul·ll.hlf! Sir Abdur Ra.him): Hefore the House proceeds to den I with tht· Demliluls for Grants, the Choir might inform Honolll'lIble Members t.hnt it understands that nn arrangement has been arrived lit among the lendl'rs of different ~ t on of the House 8S regards the disposRI of tht· (IUt motions relnting to these demands .. According to that IIrrlll1gcment, the Congress Party will have the whole of today and
a~' till 4 P.M. to deul with their motions relating to these demands. On Tuesday, from 4 P.M. until Wednesday, 4 P.M., the Indepencleat Party will movp thtlir motion. ')'he Nut.ionalist Purtv would move their motion from 4 P.M. on Wednesday t-o 3 P.M. on 'L'hul'sdBY. The European Group will move t1wir mot,ion from 3 P.M. on Thursday till 12-45 P.M. on Friday, IlIld tit!' ullut.tnched Memhers from 2-1!i P.v. to 5 P.M. on Friday.
Kr .•.•• oTOIbi (Nominated Non-Official): May I point out to you in connection ",it,h t,his nrrllngement. t.hat. it is not quite fair to the unattached Members. The number of unattaohed' Members is quit-e large, about 20 or Il}ort'. A Pllrty CQllsisting of ten Members has got nearly a day. t .
THE GENBBAL BUDGBT--LI8T 01' DJnlANDS. 1128
feel that you, liS the protectol' of the rights of minorities, would see that jUl$tice is done to the unattached Memhers. J think it will be doing only bare justice to the unattached Members, if they get a day.
Mr. PresideDt ('fhe Honouruble Sir Abdul' Rahin,t): The ono a. ~ Membet· knows that the Chair has not made these arrangements, and It Ilnderstnnds t,hnt the nrrnugenwnt wnR nrrivp.d nt, Ilftrr eonversntion "mong t.he different Partly Leaders.
Mr. 5. K. Joab1: \\'e were not COlls.u)ted.
JIr. Prea1dent ('i'he HOllournble 8ir Abdul' Rahim): As reglll'ds the Wl· Iltt-acheu l\Il:!rnberM Ule Chair knows there is always some diffioulty or other. The o t ~n of those who belong to partioular .~ is quite evident. 1'ht',\' huve got Leltdt'l'fI who cnn speRk for the Parties.
Mr .•. K. 10lhi: 1'he.v 1I1't' lIIisleuders.
Kr. PrelideDt (The HOlluul"lIble Sir Abdur Rahim): The diffioult,y arises in this way thut no ont' (lun speak for the others.
Kr .•.•• lCMlh1: Let lI!! hllVP our time.
Kr. PreI1deDt (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The time is not allotted flccorrling to the number of Members ,at all. There would not be . ~ nt, HilI(' for diRtt'ibution on that basis, and, of course, it is Dot for
the ('hllir to enforl'l' n~' particular arrangement. It is for thE' RoutH!. rf t ~' clon't ugl'lle. then t.he Chair goes on with the nmendmentll in the, ordf'r in ",hidl they IIppl'lI!' on the pnper.
Xr. N. X . .Joshi: YOII mliRt Jll'Oteet the minnrit.iett.
Sir Xuhammad YamiD lO1aD (Agra Division: :'.-1uhalllmadlln Rural): It hUll III way" 1)t'('11 the prnl'tice in thiR House that, whenever the Party
' ~ wanL to eome to nnv decision nf this character. thev invariablv nonsuIt Homehody among the' unattached Members and ~ t their views. This time tlw,\' hllve ignored the unattached Members, und, iD t.hElRe cil'-
tn ~ R, we (10 lIot ug'r('e to nil.\' arrangement thllt t.hey havp come tn behini! our tllwk.
Kr. President (The HOllourKble Sir Abdur Uahim); '1'he Ohair does not know how tile rarrnngement was arriv(lil nt. Will the Tlender of thl' Opposi-tion explain?
IIr. Bhulabhal I. DeIa1 (Bomhlw Northern Division: NOD-Muhatn-madlln Rurlll): Tn so far as the arratigernents nrc concerned. it is no doubt true thut it. WIIR not pnssible to conKult the several Members in the un-attached grollp--which is, if it, ~nn be 8n describe(i, U contradiction ill terms, hut uonl:' the less the filet remains that in so far RS the European ~ o~ lind tht> Nationalist!! I1re concerned, fbe time-table as we suggested It gIVt'R them about 2f houl'fl ellch and an equal amount of time is left !or the unattached Members. (An Honourable Member: "No, .no. ") It. 18 from quarter PRSt two to five C)·dock. It is n mutt('r of purt' Rrithmetic, Bud !\Ir. JOKhi, whn, is ' ~ keen on having bis pnund of flesh for labour,. mil." :It IpIIst ' ~ ' t.h III , thllt. hE' hilI! hfld numerol1S opportunitieR "ll'f'adv'
'2130 LKGI81,ATIVE ASSBMBI,Y. [9TH ]dARCH 1936.
tMr. B ~ J. ~ .
in thili Housl' and wiil huve mu.IlV more when the !<'inance Bill comes on, to ventilate the sarno grievances" nil over again; but, without referring to individuals in this matter, 1 do respectfuliy submit that the House should recogn!8e the j'Ust;ee of the propl'r diHtribution of time nnd suitable arrange-ments in order to make the disc'u8sions have !l. renl value, (IS under the preRlmt arrangements.
Xr. President ('I'IH! HOllourable t;ir Abdul' ltahim): The Chair does hopo the House will accept till' arrangement that has been referred to, but the Chair would specia!l.Y impreBs it upon Honourable ]dembers, who .do not belong to any partioulur party, that they will lU\ve an orpportunity .81so of speaking on other motions. They ure not shut out from speaking on the othel' Inotions. Otherwise, it will hf' vel'." difficult, for thiR debntc ..to b(, catTied on, with Ilny result.
Sir Muhammad Yamin ][han: Sir, one would have expeeted that Pa t~' 'LQtlders, when they were submitt·ing cut motionR. would submit only a fE'w ngreed cuts on behalf of tbc whole Purty, but; here we find the list con-tains numlwrR of (mit; h." different members of the vllrious PllrtieR?
Mr. President ('fhe Honourable Sir Abdul' Rahim): They do not pro-pos£'. tho Chllir unrlf'rshmrls. t.o mov£' nil those mot:ons.
Sir Muhammad Yamin ][han: If the." wanted to act as one Party, there illiould hnvE' been only one cut?
Mr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdul' Rahim): If Honourable Mem-bers, who rIo not belong to nny group. arf' in agreement, so far in objecting too this Rrrnngement, wby could the." not Buggest, b,\, agreement, among them Fof!lVl's, some othl'r a n ~ nt (HE' Ill' , heRr.) .
As regards the time-limit, it hus !\lwllys been the prueti('c fo), the liOUtlO :to Ilgre(' t~ IL rtlusonublc time-limit, and, in the past, the practice has been .to limit. t. ~ time for the Mover to twenty minutes, for other speakers ;to fifteen minutes, Rnd for the Government ]dembel' replying to twenty .minut('s. If thut, nrrangement, which has really worked so well in tho past, is accept,N1, it, will perhaps facilitat·e the discussions of these de, mands.
The Honourable Sir Henry Oralk (Home Member): I suggest, Sir, thllt "the Government Member ought. to be allowed haH an hour.
Mr. Prel1dent (The HonourablE' Sir Abdul' Rahim): If the _Government Member feels thnt, he really cannot reply fully to the debate within twenty -minutes. the House will, the Chail' is sure, Rgrf'C toO allow him more time.
Sir Abdul lIallm Ghunavi (Dllcca cum Mymenaingh: Muhammadan nurul). Sir, fifteen minuteR is not. !lufficient, for the Rimpl(\ l'CIIROn t,hat i:his iF; 1\ budgE.'t, rlisclIsFlion, nnd.
lIr. Preatdent (The HonomnblE' Sir Abdul' Rahim): Order, order, Thp. HonoUl'nblc Member cnnnot argue the matter. The practice has been ~o n on for ~ R long timt'> thAt. thiR ;1\ not R matter for Rrguing about,
2131
The Honourable Sir James Grigg (l"irlllno(' Membl'r): Hir', I ueg to ll1()Vt!: ,
"That a ~ n 1101 exct'etiinl{ R~, 7.72,000 he grantAd to tht' ({overnnl' Oenl'rlli IJl Council to defray the charges which w,i11 l'Omt' ill COUfAl' ,of paym"lIt ' n~ ,~ .. ~a ~n n t ~ 31st, day of Murdl, 1937, 111 1'I'RpP.{'t of tIl(' Honl<' J)pp,"·tml'nt ,
.,. President ('l'he, HonourAhle HiI' Ahnur H(\him): Motion moved:
"That a sum not exceeding RB, 7,72,000 he granted to thE' (;"VtlrnOl' neneral in Couucil to defray the obargs8 which will ('Orne in courRC of pllymput during thl' ypar ending t.hp. 318t dRy ()f Mar('h, 1937, in I'PSpPct of th!' 'Home Dp)lRrtment',"
B1I1'I'all of Public n o at on~t o a,n ~ t Activiti?8 of tilt', Homo Thi/IUTtmcllt through tht' DITCdor of Puh//(' Illfornllitron fHI'N'/ally the P "h/iratinfl of "Til dia in UJ.'I1-:U",
Jlr. Bhulabhal J. Desai::\Ir- Prf'!'linent (Loud ApphHlse), I bell l<l lnovC': .
Mr. President ('I'll(' HOllolll'uhk ~ ' Abdul' Hnhim): 'flw ChiliI' under-1!\,"llcl" tfH' 1I111101ll'Hbk .\fl'llIh"J· gll\'(' llotiC'E' of thi" on 1,\' thi" JlJorning,
:Mr. Bhulabhai J. Desai: Yt'", Sir, nnd mil," T /IRk t,hat ~ will he 111f':t"'t,r\ to (li Sp£> 11 1'\1' with tl1(> rlllp,
M.r. President (1'l!p HOllourabl(' Hi)' Ahdur H.ah;lJ1): V l'I'\' woll. A simi)u!' motioll ,. \\'ol'd for worn. \\'a" givell ill t.hl' )]111111' of tlw' Honourable Mem),N, \II', S:lt,\'III11llrti,
Kr. Bhulabhai J, D8a&i: t\ir, the Publicity Deplirtment of the Gov-n ~ t of Indin has somewhat of n chequered history, and, if you turn
yoUI' utten! ion to the Provincial o overnments , Sir, yOIl will, find that they tried the expt'riment, but a ~ now given it. up in favour of II much better' course to which 1 shall presently come. But the foot r",mains, that. fo\O far LIS the Government, of Indiu are concerned, they, from tho Publieity Department point of vicw, have, during the Il\st three Y6llr!!, be':ln onguged in BctivitieR to which it will now be mv dutv to call atten-tion on t.hi!! motion, Sir, they o ~ this information for'the purpose of preparing what is described as the "moral and material progress of the ~ of ludia" for the p1:lrticular .yeUl· in quelltion; and, in addition to
that ,t,he,v usually, ill a belated nnd second-hand sort of way, issue certain oommuniques for public iuformation: and, at, the end. of that, there is Bothing that one can see in the activities of that Department, whlltever may be it,s interw!i ~ t on, (Laught.er,) So fRr 1111 fln:y outside ncti. vities are c.oncerned, they appeur tu be all whi('h appeal to tlw public, ~o far Ils Provinciul Governments 111'1:' cOll('erned. t.lrere W8s (\ time wben Pro· vincinl o nt~ each had their publ'citv departmentll, Financial
~n o and other consideratioUfI huve 8Wffjlt'most of them away, 'rhe t1urvlvlll and the SUl'cess of that department of the BombAY Oov<'l'Dmpnt
2132 I,EOIBr,ATfvE A BSEMJlr.v. [9TII MAIIOH 1986.,
[Mr. Bhulabh:\i J'. Df'sai.]
is to be attributed to the fact that it ~ btlell conducted throughout by a journalist of long experience who also happens to be a barrister and has. therefore. been able to combine· with his publicity work the duties of Commissioner for Workmen's Compensat,ion. !lnd the result has been both dIiciency and eeonom.v, lind, at iJ time when 011(' 100kR for every !lvenue for I'eduetioll of taxlltioll, it. iR 110 exaggeration to suy that, not onl'y t.he maintenunce of this Department, but its augmentution and the continuous recurring expenditure involved is all very wasteful. Not only thl\t,. hilt it is Illy duty to cttll aUent.ion to the fact that the Stauding Finan('e Gom-mittee. whid) has i!onrluctecl itself. in so far as recommendations which a ~ o ~ it were concerned, with cOIlsiderable restraint. with 1.1 gri'at
deal of moderation. IIno n wisdom which is unsurpassed, they still found it· necc8Sllr.v to (,heck nt, ICILRt the ruke's progress so fur liS extrava,gllnce in' this p"rt.;cuIHr Depllrt,ment iR eOl1cemed, but. disregllrding all tha.t, all the' items which hllve been rejeett'cl Rtill, Sir, form part of the demand unde.· t.his heaci of tilE' Home Department. It. is easy to 80 orgllnise its activit:--, unlesfl ih ' ~o is something quill' different to whut I respectfully sublll:t is legit.imate IInder the (1flvernuumt· of Indiu Act. Under sectio;'; 26 (1\) Ilf the> (tovernment, of India Act. this is what is required IIR 1111 obligatioll:
"Th .. 11CN>Unt shall b .. ILI'CoDlI'Rllied Ity a Rtlltpmem, prepl1l· .. d frllm uetlliled report.; !rom OIll'h l'rovinc'8, in 8uch form aM lIe81· exhihits the mOlal and m&14lri&1 progrell ;md condit.ion of India."
You have there, Sir, laid down the sources of illformution- I,he detailed' reports from each I1'ovince-and it is II compilation which is I.L statutor." duty for the JlUrpose of presenting the mOM1I and mllt.erial progress of the condition of India ior t.hat particular yl:':\r. Tn yellrFl pllst. this used to 1)1' compiled, ·if dull, but ut nIl events, in a milch more straightforward ancl h .. onest way. It presented the Il.ctul.Il eyen!s of t,he ,Year, the fact-s concern, ing its trade and other activities. But during the IIIRt some threE' yARrs. the IIctivit-ies have taken 1m entin'lv dift'erl'lIt. t Ill'll. It. j" u mutter fo!' which !'lomc' just-ificmtion ill ~ to '~ Rt, hut \\'hiC'h, T hopl' und trm;t fol' the rensons which 1 !'lhnll presently gin' tel tha ~ , it i!'l not possible lA:)
justify. It is !i\llirl that. the Governmeut of LndiR rf'quire public·it.y for their' own activities. Therl;' nrc two answers to that partieulRI' eluirn, Fir"t and foremost, is that on their own confession, they do not. rely UpOIl ~ support. for their continuallce lHenl', henr) or for t·lll'ir ~t. t on. So fm" as uny rC8(lonse to public opinion is ~ n , lignin, 01. t.lwir '.IWII confession. t ~' absolutely are deaf if not rlt·flrl. Thllt. iR t.lw at.titude. In addition to that, I think it. was admitted IIII;t, :\'l'lIr lind alRo udmitted during question timo 011 st'vernl oceusioJJ8. thnt. j',lwrt, il'l 1\ ~ of friendly newspllpers IIlways nt their disposul, favoured if not· RlIpported, who carry on their propngllllda in 1:1- maul1l'r ",hieh perlulj'l! t:1I1l1l0\ h(' t.'xc'l'C'dl'd hy an." Government Department, having to incur all tlH' t'xpcnst!1I whieh an" incurred under this head. I, t.herefore, re,spel:l .. fuUy KIIIIIIlit, to the House that, in so fRl' liS Rnd until the Government remain what they are on their own confession, irresponsible lind irrespollsin' to puhlie opinion, t.his hend of expenditure is ent.irl"ly unnecessary nnd should he spnrecl 110 fur all puhlilh revenues ure' concerned. Bllt, if it ' ~ merely that, if it were merely a matter of luxury and ext.ruvo.gance, om' might lUl\'e tolerated it along with numerous other larger extravagances. But when you oome to ita actual .,,'o ~, for th .. purpolw of th(· obligation thnt it! imposl'd "POll thf'lll nndf'l"'
THE GBNBRAL BUDGBT-LI8T OF DBMANDS, 2111
:>lcctioll 2(\ (3) of the OO\'ermnent> of lndiu A('t, th".,' IU1V(' (·xoeeded all hounds of propriet,,\' Hnd dE'cenc,v nnd, if tll<'Y had Iwell pri\'ute individualA, IroD' til{' extracts which I propose to road aud OOlllmeut upon, the House will ugrllt· with IDt', that t.hey hud oonimittl'c1 II ~' indictuble offence and t.hat they would be liable to action, 80 far as libel is concerned lind in so far U8 t,heir' other Ilctil'ities nrt' llollcerned" tlley t.ell their own tille, they do not see thnt t.he.,· do not. j1lay even the gamp even of Bn irresponsible autoerllt, It ilol t hilt, whieh is mot·l' iJuport.llnt. It iii for thul JllIrpos(' that in ' ~ 'nt 1 illwloI till' del';l!·t mE-lit· hm; heNI st,rl'lIllthened. In plIl't imllur, I illlltlllJ('(' tlw ,rIor'lll lind nmtt·rilll prc;/-.rreRfl lUI it is Clllled of Indill ill HISS-ll,. whie!. hill' bt't'll Jlllblitlhed ~' tlw Government, of Indiu. 11 is neec!lsLlry tll <:all I&t.tentioll. in "iew of t,he St'cl-iont,lllli 1 Im\'t' reud. tH tilt' ' t ~' 1l0tP.
which is KOIIII'wIl1l1, illljlortllllf. 111011 \·lIltl"hl,.:
"Thi. report which has been pI'epal'ed for' Ilre.pntllt,ion to PRrlillrnpnt ~ i.Mued :toy tJte BurMu of Public Informat.ion."
Then follows II somewhat· "mazing uno ast.oundillg stut-ement even b.v ILD irr,",spc'l1siblc' Ho"prnment:
"This i. compiled and pul.liahed by the Govel'nment of lndia under the a t o ~
.and with the general approval of lohe Secretl\ry of StaLe for India, lout it mUlt no\ be undeulA:lod that the al'pro\'aJ either of the Secretarv of Btatt' or of the Govern :ment, of India t n ~ In every particular t·xpreBRion of "pinion."
Wt: Junl' on I," to reud the t.wo purt!! tog-et,her, They ILre I'tlrforming " ,. tnt. to ~ t~' t{l inform thp Parlinment ~o t' 't , , t ~' nnd hOlleAU,v. whut has been the morni and material progress of t.he country during thtl yeBI' in question und t ~' R ont~ cun hal'l' the temerity to say t.hat none-t.he-less it. is not. to he understood t.hat the RI'I,roval of either the Secretary of St"h: or of thl' Oovernment of India extends to every particular expression of opinion, If it is intended to guard againstJ criticisms, if it ill intended to protect themselves or hedge themselves against any liability. I can well nppreciate what the;v would describe 8S the tactics of 8 rag newspaper, but for the Government of India to say that they are perfonning a statutory
t~, and lest it should appear that in the performanoe of that duty, they have cOlrunitted Bny derelict!on of duty, to attempt to hide themselves hehind t.he statement that, ill mRdf' in t.hE' prefate,,· notof' ill amazing. They fhrther go Rnd say:
. "In 10 far .. tJte first cbapt.el' ftn poIiti('M an,1 adminilotrat.ion i. L'Oncemed. j, rpfer. t.o the (,alendar year 1934."
Su milch for t ~ tuunllbl' ill which IIt,u-I'OIliWioIlSIlC88 IIf guilt is writt.cn large on that prefatory note.· However, if it were not so, there is not the 'Smallest reason why they SllOUld not as straightforward men tBke the responsibility for t.beir own compilat.ion which they are called upou and required bJ the Act to do. Bnt th(\y are AO consciolls of a n~ tlxoE'.eded t,llcir rights, of having abused their privilege8 and hning wasted publill revenueA that the)' themselves, from the start of the report. said, "but please take not ~ that we do not hold ourselves responsible at aU", because I.he exprenion is sucb as to cover almost anyaUaek that may, be made on th" ·opinions therein exprellsed. For indeed it says, that it must not be under-·stood that either the approval of the Recretary of State or of the Govtmment (){ India .exf.enda to , ~ ])artic\1)8r ot>xpl'<'RBion of opinion. That hmgu,..
2134 ~ , Af!8EMBJ,\·. f\lTH MAUCH 1986.
l Mr. Bhulabhai J. Dasui.] is wide enough to cover cver.Y exprt'ssioll of opinIOn. They might us well have said, "we are placing this before Parliament under a duty imposed upon us, we have expreSlied many things, take them as true or false, we do not hold ourselves liable to you". In other words, to whorn they owe allegiance and to thORe to whom they owe a duty, they do not perform tbat duty in good faith. because their 80le and absolute purpose has been to depart from that duty for entirely different purposes.
There is one more observation which is necessary ut the outset. If that book is carefully read. as it. has been read by some of us. it appears that it is a hybrid l'roduct. There is internal evidence in that book of diffe.rences of opinion d:ifferently expressed in different language even on the same issue itself and the reason is not far to seek. It is almost eommon know-ledge that while a regular report is compiled. so fur as the materials are concerned with 0. view to general expression of opinion. there is added to it us Q preface the first Chapter which is intended to do no more !lnd no lcss than see wicked motives into every single movement wllith. during the yenr of report, hilS been conducive to the progress of India. the object being. it appears that they do not understand and they cannot coneeive any goodness in others because looking into themspl \'cB t.hey eannot find it in lIJ('mselves. (Hear, hear.) Not only that, it is not merely a reflection of t h(,ir own mind. but it is n f('Pling of IIpprPllension ,.hut; t.he good worl, done .~ (h::>s(\ wIll) serve the publi(' should be II rellUrrt:llt und daily eomllteutary 01, t.ill-milliolls of this country \\·us(.eel b.y thl"m for jlurposes alom' lor which if they hold thl·llIs(·lves to lw trusti'et; of tllXel3 collected. t ~' ought to be pt-rforming those tasks. [t is for these two rcusons t.hllt the first Ohllpter has been written with Ii venom. with a poiwJIl und with l\ dirlJl".lnc8s which is yet to be belLten Ewen by u pl\rt.y IJress without attribut.illg 1\ single-. honoura.blo motive ill Itny single good thing that has h('en dOli€' t,hrollghout the year.
I will cull utteution during the short time ut my disposal io onl)' three or {our of the ()ut.at.anding f(,atures of the publication. leaving it at all Ilvents, to one more speaker belonging to this side who will be uhle to Barry forwurd a few more furt·her points which remain in the oo ~ At the very outset of this book, it begins with 'Politics and Administration' and it winne the rlllldl'rR thnt political interest in 1934 centres once more largely in the Congl'css. 'I'hat is U11 }lugo 1. After trying t{) give the history of the Congress nnd its apparent, solidarity, which they do not like. but which t,hey wish to comment upon by Raying UlIlt t.here Ilre difficulties within it, lind I make /I preRPnt of UlRt. opinion of tllt'irfol to t, . t '~ begin Ill, page 4 by saying:
"It was at. t.his stage t.hIt.t· MI". Gandhi n '~oo .1 tour intended to further ib. interest. of t.he Deproued ClaSIleR. This he had Ret himllelf to achieve by .ppeal. ing to Hindus to modify certain lOCi.l practioes. Ulrow open temples to untoucbabl. and cont.ribute to B fund for the furtherance of hi. programme .. Hi. intention wu to vilit all parte of Indi.. • . . . A. the tour progreued public iDtereat in it.. .hicb .t. the ouiaet had been oonsiderable, appeared to w.ne: I'rowds still ueembled at the pl.Ct\I he viaited... etc. .
After sa,ing all this. they say.
"Reaentment over tite conl!.ant call. for call, lind mUIIPvlngs u to the _ of ita expenditure. did not _m likely to operate to tbe I'MI adYBntagt' of "-·B.rij .... • hat ratber ta pav:! t.he way for naetiCIII:"
THR UENERAL lIUDUE'r--L18T 01,' lJli:MANDS. 2136
And, at the enit, t,he:\' sa;,,:
"In the circumatanCflll, it is natural that certain obaer,'era taW ill the Harij_ campaign motiveB other t.han R purely altrui8tic det!ire to remove 8OCIia\ dillabilit·iea." (tlTIU 01 "8hRme, shame. ")
All that one can suy is this that nobody ought to ~ better than the Leader of the Tfouse that by saying that some observers aBW in the Harijan campaign mot.h'es other than a purely altruistie desire to remove disabilities. in no Court of law and in no court of conscience can he be immune from the on t~ of thllt statement. ~ merely attempting to sny that some people observed it. For he· knows as ",ell as I do t·hat whether he puts it in the mouth of Bome or few or none, the responsibility of the publication lies upon him. and. therefore, it is no llse trying to take refuge behind vague expressions of that ldnd, Sir, in the name of the Party to which I belong, and not only that. but in the name of any honest work in this country, we wish to repel with indignation, resentment and scorn the method in which and the manner in which they read in the great work that is being done in this country for the reorganisation and solidarity of those who belong to the mndu faith and for the good nnd higher purificat.ion of the ~ life in general, in t.he eyes of some coloured observers, they say that there was no n t. t ~ high mot.iw·, which t t'~ kll(,w n~ t·here, or ut least ought t:o have ImowlI of its pxistf'nct' if thl'ir ('ollsciencp hud not nlrendy been hardellt'd, besmeared, if 1I0t. deud. 'l'he:r (lould n ~ easily seen in it the germinution of one of thE' b'l'fnt.est mOVE'mentR of whieh even t.hey, if they hnd undert.nken it., would hun· IWf'n proud. "ir, MllhKtrnn Httndhi, 80 fur liS this particulnr wc·rk is eoncented, in tlw hook thnt. h(· published, "l\[y Soul's Agony", has stated in ,'cry few words, hut wordB thnt Oftnllot possihb' he improw'd lIpon, tlJl' ohjf:let thnt Ill' hnrl in view:
"1 hav!' •• ddrel ... d thi" ,."peal (() you, which . ~ Ollt of my .oul'. llgony. 1 ask y()U to lIhure that ul(ony and shame wlt.h ml' and (.'()·operat(' witb me, for J have DO lither end t() serve thlLll to lice l}altatnna Dharma I'evi"ified and lind in ib re.llitv in (hI' livl'" vf miIliona who at .~nt "!'em to me to dl'ny it." •
f:iir, J 1111\(' ulflo the figureb supplied to me ~' tIlE' Secl'ct.ury of t.h ... CE'lltral Harijan Committee saying t.hat that. is un entirely fBlse s.tateruent, both as to the funds and thE' dp.mlmds for (Jash lind also BS to the misgivingR 116 regards its expenditure. The tour in fuci, wus marked by greater and greater success. At the end of the period of the tour there WIlS a contri· hution given by pies and pice totalling no loss than two lakhs of rupees. The Dccounts are published and audit.ed; and it requires indeed no legal mind to be able to ptlrceive that your comment oannot be fair if your facts 8rt! not accurate, und your comments urtl less than fair when you se(' wickl'd motives into a pure movement. That, Sir, is the method in whi"h this report is prepared for tho purpose of its presentation, to Parliament if you please, Parliament which is going to legislate from time to time, which is Raid to have thE' E'ntiro central power and responsibility for th(. progrl'SS and growt.h of this lund, II th".'" are doinll' their duty, at least 011 the meHlltlst platform, t.htly ought to have had the honesty und candour to
~' that India is progressing, instead of trying to whittle down, trying to lower the movement the value of which, the purity of which, the grea.tne&f: of which. they could not dherwise dell,Y. T pass fln, Sir, to the neri. PII@sage in that book:
"At thi8 .... WI' IDlIa tam ul4e ,..0.1 diRu.iora of C'AlDgNII ".PI . , ,"
I.RGlMI.""IVK "AMINBI.\'. 19Tn ~ R 1986.
[Mr. BhnlKbhai .T. Desai.) Ai! U lI\at,tel' of fact., Hir, you will find thut tht'.\· Jun't' donI" nothing of
Hl'.' hilld. in tilt' lH'xt Rt>nt,ence thnt I rl'IH1:
" ...... til uelK:riue l,rit·fly the outlltanding event tlf .h .. fil'lIt qlllu·tel· of 1934 lind it. politi!'al rMctions. On thp 15th January /lccurr .. cI th" di.alltrous Riha)' earth-quake .................. and \0("'\ (;ongreasmen gtmeraUy co.operatfld with Government .throughout die fint stage ••• f providing immediate relief ..................... Conlidered in retroappd. It is legitimat .. t,., lIay t·hat Congress a. a wh .. l .. appl'peiated the oppor-t.unity 'o ~. hy t ,~ 0"1'1' ,.0 large an arell t .. rehRhilitat .. thpir Rt ~ 110t, only by a ViltoroliR Ihow of intel'cat Im'ally ill Biha)·. but al80 hy n~ rp,portll ttoudinl! to minimi..e Hu· al'tivitiPR of Government." (",i,·."f "Sham ... shame. ")
1Ir. PreNdent (Thl' HOllonrable HiI' Abdlll' Rahim): Ordpl·. order. Honourflhl£, Ml'mhert! "honld not indulgt' in snch exdllmatioll.
Mr. Bhulabhai 3. Deaal: TIlt! nature and uharacter of the mind that, standiug in thl' face of such 11 grcat calamity, can make and attrihute a motive of this kind exceeds at all event" my powers of description. We might Iill well SIl)' t.hat - C10vernment found anotlulr calamity, sometime following that earthquake, ill order to rehabilitate, if they ever can, their prest.ige by excluding Congressmen from participation in relief at Quetta. Hut we certainly are !lot so mEmll nf; to reud mot.ivE's of that type. Wt· will a ~ t Rt t,heir fllc!' value tilt' aSSllrlUWI' that it WIlS in t.he interest of tI\l' Qm·t,t II loIuffererR that (Tovernment. took till' nHitudc they did, t.hough tlwre iR evidtmee enough which WII'S Juicl hefort· this House in the Himlll 8es8ioll, point,iug to U)(' contrury, partie.ulllrly the callousness to humall lift· which resulted from t.hat }lurt,illulur exclusion. But the fact remllinl! that t,hl.' whole idea of this report and the object of Government behind it is to see that t,hosl:' whom you cannot tight, those whom you (lImnot destroy, you might, at least slander, Rtanding und protecting your-lIelf behind the supposed performance of a duty. The greater details 1 have JlO time toO read but. t,he;v have been all expot!ed in the public press. They went to the length of saying t,hat. 80 fllr BS t;he Bihar Government was concerned, they (,xpended Rs. 3,000 odd on administration of emh-quake ~ 1)8 ugainst what t.he,\' a ~' ulleged 8S R lakh and 28 thousand by the Central Bibm' Relief Committee. They had BOOn to correct it by saying that the lakh waR 1\ mistake and 28 thousand was the actual ex-pendil-url·. But theJ did not, say what they ought to have said thai; in addition to the nl'!. 3,000, ull the officers and the whole of the machinery under t,hem that took part in Bihar relief was paid for, paid for from the public revenues; whereus, every single co-worker in Uw cause of relief, whose services they hne acknowledged in a later chapter, was a man who was II pure volunteer. And I 110m happy to be able to state that the rigorous economy which was exercised was such that I pleaded in vain for R pice worth of addition per day in order that the worker might get _ little milk once in the drry. Mahatma Gandhi with his austerity said: "We are here in the face of those who have lost all, and, therefore, we ought to economise to the last pie in order that every rupee. that the public has voluntarily contributed and of which we are the trustees we may be in a position to save". Even in organising such relief lIS we have with reference to QucUa relief, we did not make it a matter of superior charity; we madc it, a duty of man to man. And it is on that basis that 8S prcsident of the committee that. we organised in the city of Bombay within less than two weeks, we got assistance amounting to a lakh of rupl'letl for suffering men. on nothing but pure grounds of 'hup1anity, no~
TUE GENERAL BUDGBT-LIST 01' DBJlAND8. 213'7·
Jnel'e1y from those who threw crumbs, because they had plenty, not by way of charity of a superior and supercilious power but the Rssistance of
"the friendly hand to alleviate the sufferings of his own brethren. That .is t,he spirit in which that particular organization has ,been worked, and it is It matter of sincere regret that this ~ o be the att.itude of any ·Goverument presenting, if you please, all the time under the Ktntuilory .obligation If true and accurate report of the moral and mutel'illl progresl, :arid the condition, of India to l>arliament. I can understand Miss MIlYo's pubEcotion, I con undersbmd many things of that kind ht'illg OI'gullised', ·in ordel' to prejudice this country in " foreign lAnd and part.icularly thOle who have legislative authority abOve U8. But when openly lind avowedly the Government of India wish to stand before this House aud wish to 'JlUpport this kind of propaganda,· all I can s8',V is that t.hey lUuSt. have ,come to a very low level indeed.
Kr. Pnliden\ (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The HOllourable Member hilS only two minutes more.
Kr. Blaulabhai 1. DII&l: There is only olle mOI'(' point I wish to say. 'rhere are t,,'o more charges which 1ITf' nctuully (lontained in the book, and T shall only call nttent:on to them. The next charge rellltes t.o the motive behind the organisation of the All-India Villuge Indust.rie!! Associa-t.ion, and the Isst hut not thE' least, the successful clnn)II1ign which they
o(I6nnot stnnd day after (by-the sight of us who Are bere IlS the result of the ~t elections. All I can sav is this: that this Houst' will mark ita dis-lIpprobotion of methods of this' type, abuse· of powel' und waste of puhlic money. Sir, I move. (Applauae.)
Mr. Prel1deut (The Honourable Sir Abdul' Rahim): Cut motion moved: "That. the demond under the beRd 'Home Department' he redu('ed h;V HI'. 100."
Sil' Muhammad Yamin KIaazL: Sir, ] listened with intel'est t.o the ·speech of the Honourable the Movei' of this cut, and I wanted to know on what point. really he sought the vote of this HOUKe. (Interruptions.) The only points to which he referred, as I understood him, related t,o t.he two passages which he quoted from this book and to which he took ohject.ion.: The first fJILS8Rge was about Mahatma Gandhi's H arijon campaign, anrl it reads: '
"In the drcum .. tRn ~, it. i. natllral that certain oblerver. IlUW in till' Harijan campaign motjvell other than & purely r.ltruistic de.ire to remove lIOCial disabilities."
My friend has tried to m8'ke out that it was not the cllse. The only thing about which this House can judge is whether there were certain persons who really believed what is embodied in this pBssage or not nnd whether the description, as given in the passage, represented the t.ruf' st.ate 'of affairs in the r..ountry. Nobody can doubt Mwhatma Gandhi's mot.ives and the high ideals which he carries about with him in the cOllntry, Rnd nobody can ignore or minimise the great services which he hilI'; rendered to this country, but the point is whether the book contains a true descrip-tioD of what WQS felt and what Wall believed by certain people in India or not. Is it or is it not a fact that· a number of people in Indin felt that the true motives were not as had been made out by my Honourable friend, the Mover of this oot? If my friend goea through the pl'8l8 ClOll1-meDts of the time, he will fiDd that there "Vere really many people who
o
,,[9TH MAUCH 1936.-
[Sir Muhammad Yamin Khan.] attributed these, motives to Mahatma Gandhi in 1988. When he started' the Hnrijan campaign, there were nwnerous people in the country who· belKlved-andstill there are people who believe' even today-that his,: moti\'es were not such as are made out by my Honourable and learned, fl:iend:People believe that Mahatmu G'lndhi's motiveB were not based 0& ideals: ~a ·were not; simply for the socia1 u'j>lift of the' Harijans, but they were really Ii political move, Even leaders like Mr, SrinivasBn who had been. QQntributing nrticles after OTticles to various newspapers-and other Harijl1ll leaders-questioned the true motives of Mahatma Gandhi. Their point was, why Mahatma Gandhi did not start this camplrign until after the Communal Award ,,"as given after his visit to·the Round Table Con-ference? H Mahatma Gandhi's rriotives were relrily the Bocial uplift of the HnrijuT\s, he could have started the' cainpaign long before the Com-munal Award was given in favour of the Harijuris. This was what was-felt by many people, that Mahatma Gandhi tried to kill himself by fasting just to do away with the little advantage that the Communal Award has given to the Harijans,
Some, people in BE:lIgal arc not now satisfied witIi the Poona Pact. They sny that the Poona Pact was entered into by Mahatma Gandhi, not, purely in the social interest of the Harijans, but it was a political gesture to the Hnrijans. If my vote is to be obtained for this motion, I must be' satisfied that the coudemnation which the House wants to give t.o this-book ,is really deserved. (Laughter.) It is also, may I be allowed to say. ~not o a , n a for the Congress. You can have any views you like" und one may do R' thing with whatever motive one likes, but he must have the boldness and courage to come forward and say "We did it, and we nrl' doing it tor this purpose". I do not mind if the movement. for the uplift of the Harijans comes from Imy quarter, because I have been myself 6 worker for the uplift of the HllTijans for B very long time. (Orif!6 or "Hem', hear. ") I have done some little work for the relief of the Harijans, &lad I would welcome such relief even if it comes from purely political motives. Everybody knows that the so-called Harijans are treated worse' than nn animal: there are some caste people who would touchBny animal, but would not touch a man born in that caste. The fact remains that there are such people who have been treated in this manner for a long time, and if anybody comes forwaTd, even from purely political motives. to help t.he Harijans, I would welcome him. As an Urdu poet says:
"lbn·e·mtl1'rjam hnwa leMa.II koi Dukh ki merny ia'lL',. Tel/Tay 1coi."
which means: "whoever he may be, the BOn of Miriam. that is Christ._ if he comes to rescue me, I will welcome him" .
. But., I say, we must not feel shy of admitting that there&re those' who still believe that the motive behind the movement is not the motive-which my friRnd tried to make out. Another point my Honourable friend' referred'was the Bihar earthquake business. May I ask him, if even todtry, he is prepared'to BhoW' this House how this money that was collected was" spent.? Has he got a detailed aooount?
,Mr. Bhulabbal I. Dtut: ot ~ .-four detailed, audited acoounte:' ~ ' I was present at the last meetina.
'THB GENERAL 8UDGBT--LIST 01', DBMANDS. t139
Sir IIqhazpmad Yamin DaD: That does not mean .. that :they,were published for information of the public . . . .
.. , Mr .• B ~ J.,'Pual: ~ have been published.for'publlcViniorlllll-tion: it has been published by thouBBBdE\ of pamphlets, thooeands.
Sir Kuhammad Yamin ][ban: Who were the auditors'" 'l)robabl[f, t t~, papers, my friend referred to, published their names; but my Honourable lriend failed in his speech to Jl$me, them. Now.,'he come., ,a ~B .
"thousands". I am not going tu waste my fifteen minutes . ~ . .
Ill. B a~, I. Dual: Please do not: but donob,qlk auch CJ.,uesUons_ .; ..
ail lIuhammad, Yi.mlD KhaD: I would have liked very much ,that yotl gave out the list of papers in which these a.udited accounts were publishEld. But he will realise that, in HI33-84, thel'Jl wert! objections, taken by a lot of people that the accounts were not fully presented and that, the money \Wsllot o ~ handled. I remembered having read ,tPat' money was Bpent from the fund for the propaganda WOl'k of, the Congress. Whether' that is true or not, there were articles published at the time sa.ying what· is said now in this book; and it was not by Englishmen, but by Indians. who wrote in the plrPElrs at that time. It was challenged at that time in 1933-84 that three lakhs of rupees were to be given for cAarkts by Mahatma Gandhi, and they objected to this kind of expenditure from money which had been collected for a totally different pllrpose. Whether-that iR so or not. I say that India in O1ly year must. be described im-partiBlly and that means that both sides of the question must he shown: it is not as if it should serve the Government or the Congress or aOy other-political party: hut whatever every portion of the country feeh; must be-embodied, Babu Rajendnr Prasad and the Congress came to do the ,,·ork with good motives, and nobody CBn minimise the fact that they were very-energetic and have done a great deal of uplift work; but every member of the public, who subscribes even a pie, or even those who do, notaub-scribe at aU (I.aughter) is entitled to know how the money is spent, because it becomes a public question. This kind of objection was taken even at that time, and any man, who has to describe Iodia in a particular year, must show that certain classes .of people Bre feeling ODe Wlf.V "nd certain other classes are feeling the other way. If objection was taken in the press, why shollid my friend f.eel shy that it is now embodied in this. book? It shows the work done by the Congress, it also shows the criticisDt levelled by certain members of the public against the ,WIrY the mone;v was spent. So I see nothing in this to justify the condemnation ot my Honourable friend or to do away with the whole Department. If my friend wants my vote, he must jl\stify his motion,. not in the. interosts, of his party or any other party. but in the interests of truth: If the remarks !te complains of nre not true, thcn he will have my support. If any officllli of the Government 'embarks on B programme of maligning II
particular party without any truth, then he will have my vote, if nohodv else's. Unless he does that, I C01lnot give him my votc " . . . .
Mr. PreIldent (Tbe Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The ono a ~ Member's time is up,
Sir Mallammad, Yi.mlD JDlaD: Therefore, there is nothing more to be-aid, and I conclude by saying that I am sorry I, cannot support this motion.
II !?
2140 LBOI8LATIVB ABSBMBLY. [9TH MARCH 1986.
1Ir. M. Auf Ali (Delhi: General): Sir, I move that the 'll1e .. fiion he rJ(>w put.
ab· MUhammad Yakub (Robilkund and Kum80D DivisioDs: Muham-lT1ad"n Hural): Only after one speaker has spoken from each side.
Mr. M. Mal Ali: Never mind.
Sir MuhlmllL&d Yakub: The debate m the House cannot be regulated on the behest of the Congress.
OaptaID Bao Bahadur Ohau4hrl Lal Ohaad (Nominated Non-Official): Sir, I welcome this debate specially for two a ~ firstly, ii
1 !'.M. gives an opportunity to this House to place its ",iews on lID hnp:;rtant queRt-ion, like the Hariian uplift moveinent ')n record; nnd,
~ on , the debate will show how political parties in this c')untry nre divided, and how much backing a certain purty has behind it. '1'he Hlm-ourable the ~ a of the Opposition, in his very able and learned speech, hlll\ drawn pointed f.tttentlion to three items: firstly, the remarles cllJlt.ained {)ll pl).ge 4 of the Report under discllsll'ion wherein the conclusic.·n lIn"i\'ed ut i'!:
"In the circumlltanceII, it is natural that certain observers RaW in the Harijan campaigR motive. other t.hau Ii purely altruist.i(. desire to remove Bocial dilabilitie ....
[At. t.his stage, Mr. President, (the Honourable Sir Abdur n,ahim) vacated the Chair which was then occupied by-Sir Cowasji Jehangir, one of the Panel of Chairmen.] (Cheers.)
Mr. 8. BatJamurtl (Mudllls City: it is not for you: it i& for the Chair I
Non-Muhammadan Urbnnl: Go on: (Laughter .)
OaptaiD. Bao Bahadur Ohaudhrl Lal Ohand: Secondly, that Uw Rbnd-illg Finance Commit,tee had rejected this particular demund; find, t a ~', the psrthquake work done by the Congress leaders 1n Bihar. As IC;!firdR tIle third, I have nothing to say. I have all praise for the 90llial :.nul ' t~ wo!"k that was done in Bihar, both by the Congress as well as by other parties; but, aR regards the Hllriinn movement, I have to say, a few words. r may point out. fit the outset, that I urn onl' of those who welcome this move. 1 myself was converted to this view'\n regard to Hurijllnl; ~', the removal of t.lI£' han of unt.ouchability long long ago when T was fA ~ n hoy.
AD Honourable lIember: YOII are Atill a hoy.
a.ptaID Jl.ao Bahadur Oh.udbri Lal Ohand: I was It t t ~ in 1>dlli, :md T then S:lW t.hE' noble worlt done by the Christian midliirmarieli hue like the Rc\,. Mr. Allnutt :mel Mr. Wright who were Been going aDout in the poorest- of t ~ in Delhi lind doing social work there; .and it was then that T 11:0t convinced Ilhout the humane nature of Uris \1I"lrk 1'hl-n. "gain, from 1915. for ahout. ten :venrs, I WliS practically in charge of one of the most forward District RourdR of 'my province. M.y friend, Mr. tih.llll I.a1 on th(' ,)tller side, will hear me out wbat a nohle attitude .Uf , ' ~t n ~ took ~n regard to the uplift of Rnriinns in ol1r distriet. ~ lllnc!'rt
THE GBNEBAL BUDGB1'--LlST or DBMANDS.
it on record about 20 years ago that all District Board oo ~ ah'l'Jld be t.hrown open to Harijnn boys; in fact, long before the idea of remnvnl c! untl)uchabilit.y dawned upon the Dlinds of our political luaders. the District Boards in our province placed it on record that tl .• , t' ~ ClllllS
'~' r.hould sit on the same floor, should live in the sanw ~ .. houses Ul! nrc \lsed ~' o ~ of the upper classes. Therefor!;!, since HHa, ill my di!ltrict, the Harijan boys have been admitted to Governrmmt schools nnd District. BOllrd schools without any diacriminat.ioll or restriction!!, und all classes of boys have been living like brothers, Harijan boys enjoyinF all. fnC!i1ities with the other boys including Brahmin boys.
'J'hen, Bgull1, Sir, I was for ubout ten years in charge .>£ one :Jf the-best schools in lily province, and. as an Honorary ot ~', I was managing the whole show. My friend. Mr. Sham Lal, no ~ thiR, Ilnel in our school we gave special facilities to Harijan boys, and we started this I.:inel of uplift movement long before anybody else turned his nttentioln to this qu('stion. (Interruptions.) J will give the whole story if you ,,,ill only hllve some little patience. In that school. we admitted to the ~ oa ~ 109 ~ boys of untouchable cl888es, and these boys lived ir! tlltl M n .~ ro Jms which were occupied by boys of the upper clnsses; th!J'y trJo\, t ~ snme food as wos served to boys of higher classes, and there W3R I'r,lcti-oally no distinction of any kind between Harijan boys and Brahmin boys: 0:."" ~ class boys. This WBS the same 0ase, not only in our school. bllt 1110;0 in the schools belonging to the most orthodox comrnul1iti('s like ttf(' Mahnjans and Agarwals, of which my friend, Mr. Sham 1.111 is II repre!'lfmtative here. My point is simply t ~ , that it was's:) far ~ ' u>;. t ~ I"st 25 yenrs during the last century, that t,his movement WBS hmught. int.o prominence ill the Punjab by that great leader, the ;1'lIudf.r d .~ Arya Samaj, I.... Swami Dayanand SOnlswati. It was the Aryu. Samaj that sturt,cd this movement in Northern India. It was the Arya Sumaj that n ~ t people to this view. Bud, on account of that healthy 'illf!\II:lIce thl'J'l' has heen no prejudice of any kind in Northern India, nnd 1\8 Delhi ~ vad of Northern Indin und of the Punjab, the movemllllt 11118 p'lLim:J strlll1gth to the same extent here as it has done ill the Punjab. t .~ that, the Sikh Gurus made it clear from the beginning that there should be no distinction between the upper clll'!lses and the Flo-clIlled lower classes.
An BOIlO1Il'able _ember: WhRt has this got to do with the m.>tbn before the Honse?
OapUlD &eo Bahadar Ohauclbri Lal OhaDd: I am n~ to) that. The rea&on why exception i8 taken or motives attributed to this m.w move is thi8. Northern India. already stands convertea ~ this view_ There was no necessitly for preaching to the people of these parts tlu" ne('cssity of this uplift. movement, but still some people 11'<11'1 :Jther pro-vinces have macre Delhi their headquarters and go to villages like a ~ and Bijwasen where no untouchability queRtion exists ot all and 1,rufcsK-tr: prt'Rch to the people the nece8sity of the uplift mm'eml'l1t·.
Mr ••••• lOIId: Are we not citizens of India?
Oap'" JIao Babadar Gbaudhrl Lal OhaD.d: Yes, YOll are. but thelll" people from Southern India go to villages Joike Norela nnd there pro;!('1! to the J-ats, who are admittedly a liberal community and who make rn di8tinction of Ilny klJ1d hetween tOllchnhles and ulltouehables, the ne"u;sily
UIGISLATIVEABSBMBLY. [9TH MARCH 1936.
[Captain Raa Bahadur Chaudhri Lal Chand.] 4,If'the uplift movement, and, afterwards" in order to get' ';UJlpOl't for the Congress, they tell 'them' wnat on ~ leaders were doing iIi this line. ''I'hi" year, Sir, I haa occasion to make s tour of Southern India in another . ~ t ' t on, and there I saw . . .
Mr. B. Da. (Orissil Division: ~ ~M a na an Are t ~o pel'sona! ianecdotes relevant to the suhject matter we are discussing? . , .. .
Xr. Chairm.an \Sil' Cow:illJi .Jehungir): The Honourable Mellluer may <,<'nt.inue,. '
a ~ Bao Bahadur Ohaudhri Lal OhaDd: This year, in another COD-.. ~ t on, I had to go to Southern India .
Mr., B. Daa: Don't come to Orissa. (Laughter.)
Oaptain Bao Bahadur ~ a La! OhaDd: .. , . and t ~ ] wcmt to 'S(,mo 'backwar-d villages lmd saw the condition of the pedS!llIts and Hilrijans. It Will:! simply deplorable. AIld, yet, what do we find:' Pl')-fe&eor Ranga from Southern India, not caring for the p'e3Sant.1 (,f ;\[n(lras wlJo are steeped in ~ o ano , goes to Lyallpur where every pe&&ant is hetter' 'off socially and educationally than even the big Landlords of KOllthern India ~ t and gives lessons to them on uplift movement.
rrheir simple reph· to him should he "Pllysician, heal thyself", ("Hear, lwr'r .... frorn Opposition Benehes.)
Mr. 8. Satyamurti: Go and heal 4j hyselfl " ~
Another Honourable ][ember: Sardar Sant Singh comes from L,"nllpur 'nad he is doing nothing t,hel'e for the Hnrljans.
t.a~, JI.ao B~a a ~ Lal Oh&Dd: Sikhs are ulrefl.Jy ahead .)f r,th(,rs. Sir. nnuloglc8 arc somotunes helpful. Only qUlte lr.telv. our -political leaders have hH, upon this programme of doing some ur1iri work qmong the untouchables, About 15 years ago. they took It to~ hendR to go to the peasants and to the farmers and professed to ~ n them. I remember very well, and I ml.ll quote the testimony o~ my fric·nd, Mr. Sham Lal, that in 1919, we held apolitical conference, ,', ..
An Honourable J!ember: What auout, the Clumll\1'l;?
Oapt.ain RIO Bahadur Ohaudbrl La! Ohand: J have been asked, what. about the Chamars? T challenge anybody to eome with me to any of t he a~ round about Delhi and to show if there is finy distinction Iwt,ween Juts, who are proprietors, ~ Chamars so fllr as toudlnbility 1& <loncerned. They will find 'ill all District Board schools Jut and O;181nar boys sit,Ling side by sidl'. Thore is' uo d'istinction 'of ant ~ In our Rl'hoclll in the Delhi Province. It is only ill Bengal and ill Soutileru Indi" from where these politliclll leaders come 'that' t Bt t ~ t question is ver,\' acute, Therefore. there being no justifiCiltion for, any I'l"!'(Il:hiug here, people are . ~ in attributing motives to the ~tat~ ' ,\\"lIP go about into these villages.
THE OBNERAL BUDGBT-LlST OF DBMA'NDI1.
Sir, I was refemn!!" to the attention thQt wus paid to the' peasants "15 years ago. About the ycar lOl{), there wus a big' l)oliticlll on ~ '~ ~ n If:" districL. l\fnhntma Gandhi amI Colonel Wedgwood were, adv,erhsetl ttl ~ coming there. They eoo!dnot come for c('rtuin reaiJon\bu't tbe
';lnte LaIn Lajy1at Rai came there to address a meeting of peasantE>. '~ ''''tife about 8,000 to ,10,000 persons present, ,lttl drawll from f'lrru areas, 'lll08tly cultivat()rs-. -Honourable' Members' 1riU remember that 'the priGes were 'then very high, agriculturists were rolling' in w('aUh. Theil' '"bEAt and cotton were going out freely and ,thcro,,"eremllllY n ~tt open,ed for Indian ,produce. Cattle wet'e be.ing exported in large numbel's f1':>m those areas and, over and above that, rons of mone,V waR C01'l1l11,!, fmna
-the ta ~ headquarters, beC8\ise this wII;s a military. area, ~ ' thjs political conference was held. ~o economICally a ~, aih..,at3 o~ ~t o to gain by those high prices, but' tho late Lalo.. Lalpat Rat willIe r ddressing them, said; "You, pensants, you are ull deprlved of 'y')ur ~ 'n . ~' at do you lee? In tlnl land of milk and, honey, in ~ lll!l/.t ~ ~ t.here WII!! plenty of wheat, ""hRt do we see? ~ your wh.eat IS .?6mg £;'(oorted to foreign countries, nnd YOIl are feedmg the forelgnen. .Iu
,that strllin, he appealed to t,hem, He Raid: "Thell6 foreigners are taking .,awlI;\" from you everything." . ,
An Honourable Kember: Is it 'not true? , ' , Oaptaln]lao Bi.baclur Ohaudhrl Lal ChaDd: The poor people did hbt
'KIHJW much of Jogic; they dieI not know that there walno logiC behmd a:1 thut speech, und, yet, u political appeal w8smude to them Glid ~' WIlR admittedly II blessing for them Was descrihed BS being a, CUl'!Oe '110 them, This is the sort of rxplO'itation that has been going on.' .It. is in 'that. I!tru'in t.hat uppeals 111'0 being mude to Harijans by workers whit" going to vilhges, They only set lIJl one purty a a ~t imotiler,
; ]lr. 0h&1rmu. (Sil' Cowasji Jehangir): The Honourable Member's time 'ill ,Ip. The Chair will give him two minutes more and then a.djoum the ,Rouse, Me cllnnot continue when the House ,resumes after lunch. .
, Oaptaln Bao Bahadur Ohaudhri Lal OhaAd: Sir, the Honourable' the 'Leuder of the Opposition referred to the refUIBI by the Standing Finnnce '~o tt , I was tI member of the Standing Finlluce CommWe') ",heD :Jibe Opposition l'arty first came to that Committee, It was on the lilt 'February, 1985, that the first meeting was 'held, and, with your permisaiOD I would read how thcy rroct:.e:ted. '1'h2 Ilt-I!t note reads as follows:
"Cel't.in members of the Committee wilh t.. lie l'8qorded Ill. the oubet that, ~ t R in the ~ 'M o~ the discu5sion!, they might. accept !lOme propollllla al bem. 7Justdiable on admlRl.tratlve groundl, thll should Dot be regarded a. debarrin;: them .from o o ~ a~ re1ati.og to t ~ ~ items on ot~ grolllld. in the Legil1ati.fe .. AIBembly. rhey wLih to r_rve fllll hbel'ty to deal With the propol&l. on the loar ;Of the Bouse,"
What does this mean? It means that they were not open to conviclion 'in the first instance; aDd even if some bow convinced, they would oppose the grants agreed upon in the full House. If this is the sort ofattitu.cle 'they tnke in the Standing Finance, Cotnm'ittee, tD which my Honourable Jrieud has referred with some ~, the value of t,heir 'vote lost'8 aU weight.
2144, LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. [9TH ~ R ~
1Ir. Ohalrman (Sir Cowasji J ehnngir): The Honourable Member must· conclude his speech.
Oapt.alD :aao Babadur Ohauclhri La1 OhaDd: So, I htwe submitted til"!; there ~ two different opinions about, this Harijan work; There is '8 very strong section even among the Harijans themselves, who hold that ther:e is a motive behind this movement. The workers in the movement lire drawll from the Congress, and, when they go out into villages, they do not keep themselves aloof from Congress activities. Therefore, those relI1arks in the book are not without justification.
~ Assembly then adjourned for LUllch till Hulf Ptlst Two of t ~'
Clock.
The Assembly re-assembled after Lunch at Half Past Two of the Clock, Mr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim) in the Chair.
Mr. M. S. ADey (Berat· Uepresenttliivl'): I risc tu support, the lIIotion which has been moved by the ono~t' the Lender of the Opposition. I have heard with great attention the spee('hes delivered by my friends, Sir Muhammad Yamin Khan and Cuptain LuI Chand. With all my desire to unaerstand precisely what they 11I1V8 to say, I confess I hUVl· n'ot been able to understand the points whieh t.hey pressed 011 t ~ House for voting against t.he motion. The only thing t,hut t, ~' suiel was that they were Dot convinced by the speech made by the LeadEn' of the Opposition. I
~' tell them in return thnt it ill the only ~' t ~ will rec.eive from the other part of the House. 'j'here was l'Iolllething to be ('onvinced ~n the speech of the Leader of the Opposition for nny one who hnd an open mind, but there was absolutely nothing in the speech whieh they made to (·rmvince this side of the House. 'fhe quest,ion which is before 'he-House ia important for t.his renson. What is the ('xnct duty of the Government in regard to the mllttpr of t~ It is n ~' imllortant qUfostion. There ill no doubt n tnt. to ~' obligatioll UPOJI the Government of India to publish a report regarding t.he moral ,md mat.erinl progress of this country for the information of Parliament. Rut, Wl111t we have to oonsider is 'whether that Statutory on t,~, also throws upon them an:v obligations of giving their own impressions nlong with the farts which· they have to bring to the notice of the ParliamE'nt, for their informat.ion.
In my opinion, the first. blunder whieh the Oovel'llment of Indin rom-mitted ~'n to depart from the old polieywhieh they pursued in this mat,ter, of giving a faithful picture in the form of st'atiRties for the informa-tion of Parliament of all the activities of the Hovernment of India during the year. Till that time, that was n document wh1('h was considered as • very important one and a very valuablE' one, which WIIS referred t,1) for the sake of informBtion by all those who were interested in the study of Indian problems. It was a document thl1t was referred to by ~ soholars also but since they wanted to Tun a~ from pure facts mtt> coni:roversial regions and enter upon the game of propaganda the report bad lost all ita importance. It has become R document to which even t.he Government; of India find it. impossible to subscribe snd. therElfore, they write a little note in the report, saying t,hat everything cont.nined ill
TUB GBNBRAL BUDGBT-LIST OF DEMANDS. 214S-
thil' document need not be taken 11S the opinion of the Government. ;)f India. ThE' members of Parliament, who hove thrust. this dutv upon the Govemment of Indio, under certain provisions' of the GovernmeiIt of India Act, do not want to know anything which is not. the opinion of the Govtlrnment of Indill. They wsut to Imow the facts about the n t t ~.
of the Government of India in any particular vear nnd it is with the opinions of the Government of India' alone that t ~ members of Parliament R ~ an~ ('oneerned. But. we find that. t.he Government of Indin is not. prepared to formulat.e its own opinions. It permits, on the other hOlld. somebody, who is paid by them, to ventilute his own opiniolls unrl never takes the eRre of milking a pub1i(' denial before the dOCUfllt>ll! iR pub· ~ . It. never s/lys how mRny of those opinions are or al'e not ;mbl1l'l'ihed to hy them. They Rllow " good deal of wrong and mischief to be worktld IIp in this ('ountr.v and then, if somebody raises a question, eit,her on thl" floor of t,hE' House or in thE' press or on th£' pll\tform, t ~' come out with the stereot:vped explllnution 'we have already clearly suid thut what hr written therE' is not necessnrily OUT opinion'. A more t,imid, R lIlore-cO'YRmly and 1\ o ~ s£'n8eless pRth {!ould not have been pursued ~' any Govemment ",hidl ('RlIs itself II responsible Govemment. From the very ber,inning, sondlOW or ot.her, T hRve had misgivings about this depart. ment. In H12d. when I clime into this House for the first time and also in 19'J5, I put !\ few queRtions with regard to the working of this depart. ment, Rnd Rlso hllc} given a cut, like the one which is now under {'onsidera· tion to R~'. W (' could not then get an opportunity of moving that cut. hut, Sir, you will find thllt t·imes without number every year, inllll(!(liute}y 8S this report is published, for some reRson or other, there arE' 1\ number' of qUf'Rtions put on the floor of the HOllse as regards the contents and' 'he {AI'ts 'nt on~ t,herein. Whenever Govemment enters upon prop'" A'amh, it ~nn that it feelR the keen nt'eessity of counteraeling Borne kind of criti{'ism that. is levelled against it. Then, the proper course for the Govemment is to {'omE' o"t, with it,s own facts und issue a public statement and not to tllke shelter under ('ertain writers who write under 11 pseudonym
~ the Director of P ~ InfomtBtion or something else HlIll not tnkt" t ~ on t~ of the contents upon themselves.
The Honourable Sir Henry Oratk: ! Rm not taking sheltel' under thnt.
Iir .•. S. AneJ: Vcr\, well, we shall heor some defence today ill that ~. We know in whut' difficulties Government have found themselvQs
this-~' R , A similar report regnrding Bengal had been published. Cert'dn aJtegations were made Rnd Government have found out ultimately that the offi{'er in charge of the preparation of a document like that had made· statements whieh were completely unjustifiable nnd even malicious Rnd ao,,'ernment, had to publicly withdrBw the statementll. Statements ~ t'
made with regard to t,he BC'tivities of Pandit Jnwahllrlal Nehnt
AD Honourable .elDbe!': ThAt was in nn administrat,ion report.
1If. •. S. ADey: It might be, but I am merel" pointiug out· t,hllt Govennuent. allows its publicity department to work in such a n~' thnt it brings itself into trouble, lands itself in difficulties and forces itself to go down on its knees nnd npologilr.e for ('ertain statements made. ThiR ought to put the Govemment on its gllllrd in regard to this activity hereafter. I will try to show from this rt'port that Borne ungenerous and misleni!ing
•
... r9TH MARCil 1936.
[Mr: M. S. Aney.]·· . . .• ~
observations have been made ill this report. with regard. to .two activiti68, Betivities which I say,. not merely ought to be abo,,"e all cavil and sUfJpieiotl, hut for which those organisations which have carried t.hem out undoubtedly
~ due recOgilition and credit at the hands of the Government, namely! the earthquake activities jn Bihp.l· Bnd the Harijanactivities.
Now, if there were any two questions about which :there oOldd be no -difit1rence of opinion whatsoever in the COUn,tryi: these are the two questions: arid when t~ . acthritics were conducted and led under the inspiration . .and a ' ~ of.a m.an of such n a ~ character as .Mahatma 'Gandhi himselfl there· could not, possibly be the least doubt about the motive with "",hich t,he." could be conducted. (Hear, hear.) But here is 8 ·Qovernment which is prepared to suspect. ~ o and, 'in ·their usual attitude of distrust, the,\' ha'lll made. observations whirh clearly indicate that the Government suspect certain sinister motives in the'minds of t o~ ' who have t.akenupon themselves the responsibility of: doing this humnnitBrian .work They are not prepared' to make the admission, as they ought, to • that" the Indian Nationnl ('ongress hns stepp eo into doing a work, nfter all, whieh hus remained tt ~ ... nf·glected for the whole of the last one hundre.d IUld finy yeurto. that the British have been ruling over ·this count!"y. The people nre blaming them and right.l:v sO for keeping certnin (·Insses behind. Bu.t the ~'n t'nt of lndia are blllminl1; us for UtA people of Indinkeeping certain dURSE's ignorunt. Ilnd primitive. but may I fl!:'k II question? 'rhe Gov('rnment. of India have. been ruling this country lor one hundred and fifty years n a ~', and still, t,he Depressed Classe;:l Hre t,here, with all the stark wretchodneMR. with all the misery, with "n the ostraeism Rnd with all the odium that nttache!l to their position in life, but.,. alas, this Government have done l1othing, nothing for them. a~ , when some o~ n t on, which for some reason or another is not 1ikecl by them, steps boldly int,o the fip,ld, then, in order to cover their own sins of the. pa.st., t ~', instead Of giving their help in 1111 these .activities, t ~' to find fault. with those cngaged in these netivities! (Hear, hear.) Sir, is thut, the wa:v to help the poor? And, ('onsequently. may we not ask-is it possible that the personnel oi II-Government which has not the ~ n .' o t to recognize the good motives of those who have taken upon themselves this humanitarian work lire ~' to do Rnything in a smeere way for the uplift of the pOOr and n ~ a. and t ~ depressed? Sir. the Government suspect political motivE'S behind everything. It is true that the Indian National Congress has been t,heir politiesl opponent. That is thE' greatest, institution, Sir .. that opposes this Government at every step; ond it shall oppose and oppose till this Government is replaced (Hear, hear): but when this Government want!; the CongreBs to come and joill hands with them and to work constitutionally, to carryon. in 8 spirit of co-opp,ration, negotiations with them u!ld (,Oll\'ersutions with them a o~
t.ha floor of this House, is it too much to o~ at GOV!iIlDM,em' will try to observe nta~ manners not. onl,\" inside this House but 81so ·outside? Already, there is a great difficulty ILbout that . ~ t;e House; we are preached sermons, and we. are ~, and we hll've to tell the!D that tllis is not parliamentary, and there is not muoh improvement yet Ul that direction: how. then, Sil·,· I!all :VOU <'xpeet us to believe. nny ~ o a r.tanc1a of the Government 1\8 genuine and sincere whel',l t.he motIves of .r;r.en like Mahutma Gandhi even are openly questioned by them? I bew:ve this).ts not thE' VI'ay toO crl"atl" !lIst !lpirit in whi('h a rl"1\1 spirit of ~o at
';(IIlU come into existenee. Whnt ptlim; me or rather confol)ndti me .. ' Sir, ;i,Ji: ~ utter incompatibilit.y of this tt t ~ with the loud "pro(e,pai...,ll': of ,tpe Go;¥ernment, tbe repeated; . ~ Illude by them for the sake of securing oOlll' co-operation, and the ~ .t, references in the speaches of responsible ..oflicers to invoke the assistance qf the people. But ull ihese look to me tp be not at all actuated by any genuine spirit, when I find activitie..s ~
<tbe Rarijan activities of the lndinn Nutional COllW"88S und the "huwuo,i.-~ activities ~t Congress ~ the relief of those who suffered in ithe two a~a,t n earthquakes ,UTe, pptml,v questioned as being o t ~
<r.-therthari altruistic in'docunWJ;Lis ,~' ~ ' a.re p'ubH,b,ed inthl1 111Imt: qf the Government of India. I onh ,,,"nllt to tell; them, .Sir. UJat ; there is ~ proverb in our vernacular' whieh . a~' thllt those who spit at the sun get t.hei.r own faces uitimateh' besmeart'rl. So t,hev will see thnt men like Mll.hatma Gandhi cannot' be ridiculed hut,t,hose who ridi(mle him will ·themselves be ridiculed bv the whole world (Hear, henr). Sir. Mahatma 'Gandhi is above nll thei; mean and baRe criticism, because he has got 'nothing to gain, he has got no nxe to' grind;' as they ~a . Tpe Govern-m'ent of India ta n ~' hope :to gl\in .. ~o t n to sfA'Ve, their reputattOQ in the world by ridiculing those who oppose them. Sir, there is a Sunst:.rifi ,nroverb which' I may quote in this ~ t on. Somebody 8s}(fla rpe ·why do vou Ilttach so ~ importune£' to this little and insignificant o ~ t' o ~ and I told him that my reaSOl} for supporting the motion is gjyen ~ -the famOH!! eOllp1pt of poet Kilidn!!:
"XU '''''I'''[WII !IO 1II-nll,atol'ab"lIIJkat"
'\;"mllo/j ta"IIIDdapi l1flll ~a l1UpMok,','
:1,
"He who rt'pl'Olldles a great 1I11m is not. himself the only sinner in this world, but. idle who is cnmpellelJ to hear hiDI has also to share the sinll with him." (Hllar, hear.)
Sir, wo do not wunt h) shure those sins, and that is the reason wby '\l't' say that the sin must remain on their head, and their head, -llone. they alone must sufFer, lAnd, ,if necessUTy, must ~ the penalty f<?r ,jt.-'nnd not we. With these words, I support the 1I19tl0n. ~o Applo,use.)
, The HODourable Sir Hemy Ora1k: Sir. a gOod deal of'indignatk'n usa been vented both by the Honol1rl1ble the I"cader of the Opposition ,811i by my HOIlOl1l'able frien'd, who has }ust spoken, on the note that, 81'peal'l on the t t ~ of thill book, to thp ~t t that:
"It DJast not be unde1'ltood tJlat tht' approval either of the ~ of state -or of t.he GoVeftlDJeDt of India extendll to every particular expreesion of opinion."
Now, Sir, that is II purely conventional strltement and to th" best Tlf my belief, ,it hit!! nppeured in l'very' Ringle (ldition "of this work since '~t ~an to be R ~~. J venture to think th:.t some "ul.lh qualilbation '1B, • from t~~ nece.8Slbes nf .the . case;. roquired in the case of any ~ eatl!oD: ?f 1n\a 'character whICh 18 WI1tten very shortty' 8ftel' the 'eventi -whleh It recountl; hnve tokeu ~. which ir-: P. ~ BB. . ' haspc1, "pry large1:v 011 contempornry ncwspnper r:::nllment", on those events, llnrJ ,whiL.'b -may h'lVe. to he corrt;eied t~ 011, a8 all history written contempllrs: ' ~ . t the ~nt has to be corrected, on 1\ retrospect p(.rbapt' ·oonducted a few years la.ter. But I must '!IQy I was'rather amUI'M whefJ ..... :vHonoumble friend, t,hEl T.ep.del' 'of t,he Opposition,! expre8lied hi" great
1148 LIIQIBLATIVB . UaBIIBLY. [9TH !{ARCH 1986_
[Sir Henry Craik.] indignation and his great 'contempt for al1yonc who could put such a note· .t the beginning of a pubJjcation-eontempt as he put it for onp., who· !heltered himself behind such a cowardly qualification-because, nJ1 Honouro.blp. friend mll'y not be aware that an almost exactly similar note· appeared, only the other da,)', in 8 Congress publication that ~ come to my notice. I have here a cop.y of the title-page of "Congress Golden-lubilee Brochure No.5" on the Publie ~ of India, by Mr. J. C. Kum:u:tppa. published by the All-India Congress o ~ tt , Swaraj Shawan, Allahabad. and this note appears over the nRt ~ of the--General Secretary of t·hc Congress, Mr. Kirpalani:
"The Congreu as all organization",
-it sayl-
. "may ~ ~ to be in general agreement with the collcln,iolls of the different authors (·f thll brochure. although it mly not he poaaible for it to subscribe to every detail t·hat bnR heen writteJl." (Hear, helll'.)
Now, does that di.ffer ver'y much from the note prefixed to "India in.· 1983-84"? (Laughter.) It doeR not. F'leem to me to differ very mp.terially. It goes on: .
"There may be minor points of differencl' here and there for which the puhlishers or the Congresa .s an organization can take no respon8ihility."
Now, I ask, is tha.t so ver.\' different, is the sensu of that so very different. from the foreword behind ",hii'll we lire aecused of sheltering ourselves? (Hear, hear.)
Now, Sir, in the first place, I wllnt to lUuke it quite clear that I do· not intend to shelter myself under thut. at nil. I Rtand here prepl'.l'cd to take full respollsibility for what hs'" been published. But I do want tc Plake one point clear, lind thnt is t·hut though this motion ha.a taken. the form of a cut under the Depart.ment of Public Information-I am not eomplo.ining of that in the least. T know that it; ~ the proper pluce,-hut I want to make it quite clear that no onc in the Department. of Public Information, either the present Director or an,\' of his assist[lnts. h&d anything whatever to do wit.h this report.. The responsibility i£, mine. and it clear]\, ill llot theirs. I want all Honourable Members to rl!alis8' thltt, nnel I 'want to make it perfectly cleor t·hot, if they on ~' that there is any personal bias or .. ny unfairness in anything that hu... been laid, the hlame does not lie with the prcilent Director or an;" of hi .. st.off. Their duties in conneetion with lhiR work werE' purely meehanical.
Sir. my ' no ' ~ friend has raised a good many points, alld he hegan. lit;; he WllS entitled to do under the ~' wide wOl'ding of the Cilt Dlotion. by criticising the work of the Department of Information BUTeau as a whole. He spent only 8 few minutes on that topic and.if I am not mistakeu he hased mOl'1t o£ his remarkll on an article which apppared in a Calcutta Newspaper, Capital, thE'! other day. In fact, if I am not mistaken. he quoted the actua.l words of that article which was repro1luced in sev('rRI of the Delhi newspaperR. I !laW the article at the time, unel I nwst suy it. struck me as 11 particularly badly informed arti('le, .~ is iii newspaper which, however eminent in itR own ' ~ has n~'
THII GBNERAL BUDUIIT-UST 01' DEMANDS.
'~o ' on nt at the headquarters of the GovetnuJent of India lAnd is not m close .tou('h with tht: acti"itieR of tht> Government and, as II lllatter -of fa<:t, .It was completely wrong on olle or two points \}f fact. 1)lIe of ,these mistakes my ono a ~ friend. himself ~t , namely tha' Looal
~ nt have ~o ptacticlllly given up PuhhClt,v Departrn('nts under the IItrolD of financ1I1I stress. That is not correct .
.An Bonourable Kember: Tilt,." nugllt to give up.
The B~o a sir Benry Oraik: Perhnp6 t.hey ought to, IlUt as a matter of fuet, I think I an, right in saying, they a ~ done the (.xact OIJposite; publicity organizations now exist in more l'rovinces thllll thr·) ,ever did before.
That, howf:wr, is only ~' the way. The main point of the Honollr--tlhle Member's attack was on certain remarks Dlade in thitt book regarding, first, Mahatma Gandhi'l Harijan campaign, and, secondly, the Bihar ,earthquake. I must necessarily confine myself to t;bese two mlliu [loiutll.
, Rut, befrre I go into ta ~ of tlll'"e two points, J !lhould l,ike to say that I find m.vself in entire sgreement with Honourable Members opposite in their dislike of this report. No one dislikes the tRsk of hllving to .prepare this report more thRn t.he Government of India. 11; is, however, II statutory, obligation which IS forced on them by section 2G(8; :,.1 the Oc,vernment of India Act.
JIr. S. S.'yamurtl: Onl.' report on the morltl lind nlilt e"j,,1 progress; not this IJropagl1nda.
The Honour_ble Sir BIDI)' Oralk: I lUll speaking of the entire mport. 1 11m ver,V glad to say thnt t.hat -statutory obligat,ioll disappears under ti:e new Act. So I hope this is the IRst report but oDe, No one, 11.8
I sav, dislikes it more than the Government of India. It imposes 11 con-siderable amonnt, of Inbonr on IIIl tIll' Departments of thl' Government of India, as eRCh has to furnish its special material and the rt·sult ill 1\ lllltch-work or a piece of work which must of neceflsity bt, r:,tller ill-'bnlanced and lacking in that unity which should under-lie Ilny hool, , ('ven a Government publipation, Now, I must say that I 11m rather flurprised Ht the consternation and IIll1ml which have been created hy t,hill P!lI'fjf!ulHr report or rather by the first Chapter of it. I must a~' it dou; lippenr to me that we, like t'Veryone else, have the Datural ~ t. how sh/1l1 I put it, to Bay "boo to a goose", and J do not see why we RIlllUld be deprived of that right. r 11m sometimee a little Rmazed nt thp n ~tnn
tion that ill generated a on~ the Congress Party, whenever Iln."hod," has the temerity to put. forwum the theor." thRt there ('an be Rny otlll'r point, of view than their Own. Well, Sir, it seems to me that on every question of human interest in this world, thm'e is more than one point. of "jew. 1 have never known of 1\ qUE'-stion on which everybody is M ~ , Bill; J would ask Honouro.blp Membprs opposite to remember that we stand up here n.s the tnrgets for II. I!ood deRI of criticism. not alwfl,VR WI':,' ('0011-Mtured criticism, lind, on the whole, I think we Rubmit to it with"
~' I('ood W-Ilce. We do not squeal when we nre hit, hut ni< r !'II!\', ":r do claim our nlltural rillbt to SRv .. hoo to a goose ". I llR ve rellrl t ', ~ report again since this motion V\'RS tabled, of course it was tabled /I lonl(' t ~ IIgo in the form of R motion for adjournment, but thAt Willi n'lt
!130 . LEGISLATIVE ·ASSEMBLY. [9TH ~ R 1988_
[Sir Heury Craik;] :moved. My own oriticism of the report would: be, that in his endeavour" ¥- retuin a strictliimperaona\ character, the \Vriter has produced U HOme-what ci>lourless, .. and, I may. say, a dull ~ o nt of what happened. r:rhore Jill really no expression, ldo not t.hink you can find a. single ~ on of his personal views throughout the report if you read it· attentively and impartinlly. It certainly gives IL ~ great . . ~ of promm.('uct,l to· the nctivities of the political purty whoRe representatives sit opposih" me. IntlE'ed my own critieisID of Chapter I ",!,ol.lld. be t at. ~ is, tOQ Dlueh the-
~to of Congress ~t t und not. cllough tllehistory' ot Jndit\.· . • ,. ! : •
JIr_ 1', E. lames (Madras: 1<:uropimn):' That ought to please them.
The !loDourabJe' Sir Henry Or&1k:· As my Honourable friend R8yS, it-. ought·to please them, and may 1S8Y that, when t>he report first appeared, it did plc'lIse them. Mn.y I ref(ir for I ... ·' moment to a very aplirf';cieU"c
~ of this report which CIlTrle out in a strong pro-Congress Ol'gan,. the Tribune of LahorE', l\S long flgO 111'1 the 24th January, 1986. RealJ.y I almost lllushed when :r reod the encomium. It snys:
"Indeed, makinl( allowancr. for the inevitable fact t a~ the point of "iew frome which these act.ivities are reviewed is that of antipalhy aDd. i'\ot sympa.hy, the,· f.»Jnes. and vigour wilh whlich they are dealt with could not easily .have \)(lent mrpal!B8d "y Any Congress "hronicler."
'I'hllt is " review from one of '\'OUI" OWn pa.pers.
Mr. S. Satyamurtl: It. is not It Congrp.ss paper.
'1"I1e llonourableSlr Henry Or&1k: The' a.rticle goes on: "The writer doel make lin attempt to preKerve I/o fair' measUl'e of impartiality."
The review then goes on to discuss the split in the ranks of tl!c- . Congress party on the question of COIOInlJDal Award, aI!d it furthe-.' t;.uys:
"But. barring this one statement, th .. picture given in t.he report i. IUblltantiall,..· 0CIl'I'ect. "
Thtl review further goeR on: "One rail see the Marne shrewd insight into Congress politics in the t ' ~
.tatement of t.he reasons which led Mah .. tma Gandhi to iBlue hill famous statemeut on, September 17, 1934, in wbich. he indicated hill intention to retire from the Cougreea. a ~ the plenary seelion at Bombay in October."
'I'h/'ll, finlllly, we get a. pat on i,he bACk:
"On one thing, howe\'er, we can unreservedly congratulate the writer. We do not remember any previous occBlion when the views of the Indian Press were quoted 80' largely in an official report a. in tbe present cal8 ............................ The prueDt report uDdoubtedly 111&1'11. a' whole-lOme departure from this [i.e., the pat] unhealthy practice and precedent."
Now, coming from 1\ Congress paper, 1 think the House will admit thntthat is a fairly apprecintive rt'view, p..nd it WDS ur)t till
3 P.M_ the Members of (hiB As!<emhly rolled up ir. their 9COt'(''1 at Delhi looking for subjects on which to casti!!ot", G JvemmE'nt that it: occurred to anyone to pick out this report as R subject fot' attack.
TOE GENERAL .Bu,DOB1'-LlST OF DEMAlt."DS. 2111.
Before I eomt' to the precise point!'; (Ill which complaint hlhl bQell WUdl',. let. me just RUY this, thllt it does seem to me IL t.t ~ w1fair to IlId: out an iRolated sentence here lind there t',nd to condemn on thu l,· u long b,lok of 200 'pages, lind still mort' unfair t.hat huvirig picked out un ~ nt IIf'ntellce of that Rort you ~ o ll1iHqUOto it. The illdignat,ion of tIll' rress was largely worked up by 1I very serious miRqUQtntiol\ of the Sl'lIt-ence dealing with tbe' Hnrijnu ~ n. It left out tht, word", • 'In tho circumstances, it is na'ti,lral that. . ~~ n .o~ ~. So.",,ill ' ~ n it simply said thot, "the harijrm C'Rmp'nig'n was actuated hy t ' ~ other than a purel,\' Altrilil'ltic' dCRit'e to l'cmove Rocial a t ~~ . In three newspapers, ",hic·h I RUW. th!lt W!\S HIC (VRv in which tilt' ~ 'nt' n ' was· quotecl R8 if it. hnd 'bpf'1l 11 pol\itiw stntement of Go",emml"ut. 'l'}Ul.t, Hir, if I may re!lpE'ctf1.1ll,v RlIbmit, is nof It fAir method of controversy. Gov-ernml"nt mnde no positive Rtnt.'nHlnt ut all. I WIlDt to he perfe<'fly ('Ieul' on this, thllt I m:VH,u,.lllrt 1 thinl, I can "peak for Government Ill< R wholE', have lIot. the Rliglitest dt'Aire to throw 'My doubt. wh8teveJ', on the' purity and entirel;v nltrl1iqti(, a ~t of Ma t ~ Grmdhi'l\ motiWR. No bod, \\I'h(l is fnmiliRr with tl,e Rociul And ot-hElr disabiliticH untlet which t ~ u'nfortunnte peopl£.' suffer ('nn help R nt n~ with nn~' effort for' their uplift; and the grenterthe mnn \"ho .starts that effort, the stronger· must be our admiration. I hope In,)' IIttitude I\nd thn attitude of Govern-ment in relation to that is perfectly clear, that we have .not the slightest intnnt.ion of CRl."tillg n~ l'€'flt'ction on t.hose motives. Ancl I submit, Sir, that no render (If t ~ book cnn honestl.v RM'P.I't that there i8 the slightest· aspersion in an~ thing which is SAid there. Thtl book ~. Rnd I submit, that it is justified in a~' n it, t.hat "certain observers saw that theortl were other than purely altruistic moth'cs ". I do not know if the House' wants me to justify that, I!tatement: I have ample material here, I ~' a numbt·r of preRR ruttin((t:t in whirh that opinion W(\s ~. I hllvf' made it perfedl;v cll"llr that I am not in s,YDlpathl with them,-I hopu I have made that. rlenr; but ] have no desire to inflict on the House anything that. might cnuse pain to ndmirel't! of Mahatma Gandhi. The' Housl' CRon tuke it from me,-nnd I enn URsure them thE\t they ought to· take it from me,-that, t,hrre ii! :lmplE' material b('fore me here.-tO or 12 press cuttings. letters, lending Ilrticles, and so on,-in which this view was expressed. And not from one type of paper alone but from several types of papers. I will not weary the House by reading these· papers ....
PaDdl' KrlIhDa Kut ]lalavly. (Beuares aud Gorakhpur Divisions: Non-Muhammadan Rurnl): Are they from t,he "friendly press"?
The Honourable Btr Henry Oralk: No, from every type of press, from C.ongrc9S paperfl'. from Sanntanist pnpf:ril and (wen from Muslim papers. But. I take it. thE! HOIllJe is ready t,o Rcoopt my litlltement that we hlld justification for what we said; and let me repeat that we said nothing more thl\n thAt this tVf.e I'If opinion did ~ Rt nnd that it expresscd ihlP.lf in public. That i1:; nll thHt "'f\ said, cnd if WI1 I,re to be condemneli on that. I ilay W" are being condemned' for ",omething for which "'11 hact OORlptete jusHflcation. That t.ypc of opinion did exist and w.. merel,v stilted t,hat it did exist.
Now. I pnRS from thRt. Sir. to the other main Motion of the IIrePch of my H'Otioum"'" friend, thf T.pndpr of the Opposition, whi('h dC!Rlt with·
:2152 J.EGISLATIVE ASS'BMBLY. f9TR M.ARCB 1988.
[Sir Henry t, .... llik.] \'ertllin retnl\l'ks un the Hihur eurthqllltke. The parlicular passages to which hE' referred were two and they both occur at page 5 of the book. He t.:ok exception to the statement that:
' ~ were cl'iticilllll t.hat. Government propollall, particularly with regard to finanCial aa.iunca, were callous: outside Bihar sections of the pro·Congre.. pres. and n ~ ona t politicians, who 80011 b"iall to arrive in the earthquake area, elldea-VOUI'flU to 'lxploit the effects of the earthquake for political ends."
All regardr. that. here again I de. not want to weary the House with ,n~ quotations.; or extracts from nt'wspl:lpers, but there is one poillt to
whjch J m\1!!t refer, and that is that Il series of statements wer3 ifol(oued !by Pandit J Ilwaharlal Nehru, who visited Bihar twice, once about a week aItt-lr the earthquake, Ilnd the seconel time, Il few days later. He issued "I!l'tllin statements which I have here and which I do" not wont to quote,
'.t n~ on the conduct of the Jocsl officials und the Local Governmont, and ~' n thnt they were lethargic aud slow in get.ting to worl, Those
tnt ~ nt:, of his WElre contradicted in a statement published l..y a large number of local leaders a- few days after hit; visit. It WitS published ·in t,he newspapers of the ·7th February, i.t:., about Il month after the ·eurt.hqun:w. It WflR to this effect:
"In view of the opinion exprl!ll8ed in cert.in quarters that the local authorities ·of North Bihar failed in their duty, in giving relief to t,he distressed and the ,afflicted "nd al80 in getting into immediate touch with the outside world, we consider it our duty to cOl'rect. the error underlyinll: that view ..................... Considering the rlifficllltie8 with which they wel'e ('on·fronted . . . . . it is remarkahle that. the local
·ollicen, fnlm thf' CommillsimM!!' down to the ordil\ary conatahles. continued to perform t·heir duties and discharge their responsihilitir4 ill a manner which ought to evoke the admiratioll and I(ratitude of all of UII. The sill:Datoriea of this statement hav,", DO he8itation in "tidaring that, conaidp.rinll; the suddenness and intensity of thp. disa8ter nn IIlldul' d..,. W88 ",ade by the Authorities pither in getting into immediate touch with the headquarters at. Patna or in giving prompt relief to those who Deeded it. We regret. that at· • time when the wholE' province waB 8ufferiult from the disastrous effects of a mloslla) ca;aclysm, a view 8hould have heen expressed which is not wlLrranted hy the facti and which may puuihly hamper t.he good wOl'k whK.·h is tlmoot.hly heing carried on with the fullellt co·operation of officials Rnd non-officials."
That WII'8 signed by It numher of prominent people in Bihar. including ·Sir Sultan Ahmed. Mr, Sachchidananda Sinha, and various others, and, I think, there is no douht that that did reflect the genuine feeling of the-proviD(le and the wideRpread regret, that statements of thif, nature should 'have been· made. So much for that point.
The second sentt'nce t,o which t,he Honourable Memher. the Leader 'of t.he Opposit.ion, o ~t. , was t.he one at the bottom of TlIIge 5, which says:
"But of the deairt> for ~ co-operatioll with ~ I..ocal Govemment in its talk of orgamzinK relief mll88uree there were few aigna, Rnd information a8 t.o the di.hurRement of the ~nn relief fund of Ra. 24 lakhs was difficult to I)btain."
Now, I submit that t.his hook makes it perfectly clear that at the outset., that is immediately after t,he· earthquake took }>lo('.8. ·there· was every tolign of co-operat.ion hetwt'en t ~ Congress relief worlters nnd the Govern· ment·. 'rhat IS expliciUy stated both- in the first chapter lind later on at pages 67·8, where a 10nR' extr&ct is given from the report of Mr. Brett, the Relief Commissioner in Bihal', and it is perfectlly clear to Bny care-ful render t.hat this sentenc.e, of which complaint is made, did not relate to the first few weeks after the earthquake, :when .operation was com· rlet,to "nd effective. But I am afraid that this att ~ was not mai,ntained
THE OBNBRAL BUDOBT--UtI'I' OP DEMANDN. 1111
-.:throughout. till' ~'~ ' with whior. the )·eJX.rt deals, i.f.., the year 1084. When the fil'l!lt nt'ce.,siliies uf thc victims (lfi the eltrt.hqUilke bad hecn re-: lie'Ved, it. wall obviously necessary for t.holl£' administering the Cougreu fund, lI'hich amounted to 8 very large !lUlU of llIone;", to dl'aw up ~ con-:eeJ'ted and wE.ll t. o ~ t. (lut programme of rt'lief, and, I underatand. t,bat it wus with that, objeot that Mahatma Gandlli visited Bihar on the 11th . of March. All t,he result of his visit, t& lurge "11d influential Oommittee was nppointed to administer lihe fund, Hud It resolution was passed advoout-iflg "respectful oo-operatioo" with Oovermoent.--t.llllt was carriod, 1 belie \'0, inspite of some opposition. Then Mr. Gandhi himself Mdvised th. Committee to adopt u certaill programme which he put forward. 'fhe prinelipal items in that pt'ogrummo were. first of all. ~ an for house building, either of tl T)l'rmsuent or temporury character, and secondly. t.he ·clearance of sand. 'l'here were a number of others, but those were the a n~ two, and obviously the moat important, TboBe ware the ~ a
-·ill which relief was ~t argt'utly needed after the first nece88itiell of the t ~ had been ,,~ , that is to say, by the distributioD of .bJllllkcta,
Wad, shelter Ilnd 80 011. But shOl'j,)y lifter thll't visit, the Cornmittef, thulIl-.elves pRssed 1\ resolution to the tJtleot that the first two items, nnmdy ~ , n and the cleanmce of sand, were beyond their capacity ('X-cept hy way of detailed investigation, t.hat ·they ~ t.oo bjg prcblmDs for t ~ to undertake tmd thnt they had no ugeney to undertake tl.tllD. J am not eriticising thut decision, but it had this IInfortunat.e result, that for the next fe,.,· month., i.e., after the first two months after the earth-·quake, from Bay March till pretty nenrly the end of tht1 ~' t , the Coilgl"l.!sa orgunization wus IIhle to do very little in the ~ of prll.ctioaJ relief. That ill appnrent. from tlleil' OWn I'P.portR and from the comparatively small ,amount that was spent out of their funds. I am not saying thu.t they did not. in a great many ways do useful work ..
4D BoDourab1e _e.bel: TIll' nowlIn'II11Ie' Memher hilS nlr,pudy IlJlulmn 'for flO minutes.
fte BOIlOurable Sir BIDIJ Oralk: 'l'hey did ulleful work during Ute Roods, they did ~ good deal to impr(n'e at~ supplies that ~ . ~ -by the p-arth()uake; hut that was only sufficient to absorb a eQlllparatively "mall omount of the \'ery large fundf! -collect,ed. Indeed. ~' the end of the ~' n , i.e., n year after the earthquake, more than half the fUDd " .. stm unspent. T think it is npparent, for anybody who hMd Beau :ulCf studied the ~o on~ n between the .. ~~ a Government;. Ullel ~ ' on~ R Uehef COInuuttep that the PreSident' 01. that Commlttee--·Hlthll ~ n. PraKlld, the ~ ' President, waR hims('lf ' n ~' /18 t·) I he sltuM.:on . . . .
1Ir. Prealdm\ (The Honourable Sit' Abclur Rahim): Tllf' Hon(,lIrnble Memher hilS _4lready sJloken for ao miuut,es.
TIle BODOIU'&ble Sir BIIIIJ Oralk: Jain "ery nearl)' at; t ~ eud. Perhaps the J!ouse wlll ~a with me for a few minutes. [tbir,1I: it ill ,clear that he himself WRR uneaBY abollt the working of the c.ongrell& orBani. 'zation, because he himself approached Government and rnadt. nn offer to hand o,'er Re. 10 lakhs to Oovernment 'to he used for house-buDding -advanceR threugh Govemmaot ageney. The exact T,lan h'" dr(-w uI' 'VBe :& littlE. complicated and Govemment. though they WelcODltld i-hil! offer, -",·.nied to malte iJOme mMtthmttllllJJin the 'PIRn-and lJuggestr.d ttllefl
"
2164 I.BGISI.ATIVE .~ M . '.
(Sir Henry Urllik.]
alternative methods by which tllt';V could mtrke use of this sum usefully .. He acknowledged that offer, and 1 understand-though I have· no inside-knowledge-that he put it before his Committee. He clearly W&!l kHU on it himself and thought it the best way in which the funds could be spent, but, unfortunately, his Committee turned it down. ~, we did get the unfortunate result that there was in the main a lack of co--ordination between the Congress hud Government, with this further '.In-fortunate result that a year after the earthquake more than half the
~ fund was still unspent. Here again, the justification for what is said in th" report must be admitted, Imd here ugain, I must 8s1.: the House to take it from me that I have here " large number of extract·.; from papel"B, mostly from Bihar papers in which the absence of inlOl"lnRtioIl as to the way in which the Congress funds were spent formed tlte subfect of some fairly caustlc criticism. Here, again, I do. not wish to weary the· House with reading all these reports, but t ~' must take it from UlH that it is 8 fact that these criticisms were made. And that justifies whas is said in this report, namely, that the pUblication of information It'S t,. the spending of the Congress funds was seriously delayed. I woL'.lJ .n ~
mention one article tllat ·uppeared in the Madras Mail at the beginning' of 1935-that was just after the first statement of expenditure had beeu published, but, even then, it only related to the first three quarters of UIM. As the Leader of the OppoRltion has said, there has sincu beeu published .. large number of pamphlets in which full details of the ex" penditure have been given. But all we commented on and all .hllt is. contained in the report is that there was considerable delay abcut t ~
llUblication. I am not saying that the delay might not have been justified. and I have no doubt that the accounts were difficult and complicated, but it is true that there was delay and we h8'Ve said nothing more.
I have no time in· which to deal with the other points of criticism. There were many not made on the floor of this House, but "bieh hBV(' been made in various newspapers. I think I have said enough to show that nothing in this report was prompted by mlllice, that there i.. no attempt at propaganda, that the writer formed his opinions on an apore-ciation-and, I submit, I have shown it was a correct appreciation ~
contemporary comments of the events which he described. In t,hoae cir-cumstances, I think that I have justified what was said, and I thil'k I have said enough to show that this is no case in which a censure should· be passed on the department.
(Mr. Bhulabhai J. Desai rose to apeak.)
Mr. PreIlcllllt (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): Does thf' Honoul·--able Member want to reply? •
Mt. Bhulabhal 1. Dual: I do not wish to reply, but I want to JOlrkl'! a short statement in view of what I have heard, with your permission. I have here all the reports of the Bihar Central Relief CommitteI:.' nnd the· complete accounts: the first of them is for the period ending the 8Ot" .Tune, 1984. and published as eaTly as it was possible to do having regard" to the nature of the work on which they were engaged, and I ask If'ilVE' that they ~ o be placed 011 the ta ~. There is one remark more I wish to say ....
tThe copiu cf the report. were placed in the Librr.ry of t.he ~
TIlB GENERAl, BUDOB'l'-Ll8T OP DEMANDS.
The Holt01U'able Sir HeDl)' Or&ik: I have seen them.
Ill. Bhulabhai J. Dual: If you have lIeen them, 1 wish you had mentioned that. I wish to say this: that irrespective of lmy diffel'f:'U('tl of opinion 8S to the inferences to be drawn, 1 notice in the language of my Honourable friend, Sir Henry Craik. fA consciousness that therr. nJay bEo a considerable amount of unconscious injustice clone in thl' usc of s<>me expression, whereas all that was intended WBS that there was Rome dis· senting note. And huving regard to the expressions that he has ~ 'with reference to those who led both these movements, I do not think it would be graceful on my part to press this motion to a divisir.n.
Mr. Prelldent (The Honourllble Sir Abdur Rahim): Does the HOIl'Jur·· able Member want the leave of the Assembly to withdraw his motion?
Mr. Bhulabha.i J. Deaa1: I merely said. Sir, that· I will Dot press it to.-a divillion. If you wish to put the motion, you may.
Mr. Prelildent (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The questioll is "That the demand ueder t.he head 'Home Department' \Ie reduced by lb. 100."· The motion was negatived.
ORM.UID No. 31-l<'OREIGN .~ POLITICAL DJlPART.nUf'l'.
1Ir. President (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): Sir James GriMg-Demand No. 81.
(The Honourable Sir James Grigg not being in his seat.) Mr. E. Saniiva 11.0" (Government of India: Nominated Official): )fay
I hove your permi!lsion. Sir. to move the demand on behalf of tht> Honour· able the Finance Member?
Mr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The HOllourable the Finance Member should move it himself.
Mr. S. Satyamurti: What are we doing now, Sir? We ctmnc.t wait for the Finance Member.
The Honourable Sir Jam .. Gnu: Sir, I must apologise for not b£ing in my place. but J expected the crisis would take place at 4 o',Jlock ond not at 3-80 ...
Mr .•• S. An.,: Another case of under-estimation I (Laughter.,
ne Honourable Sir lam .. Gnu: Sir, I beg to move: "That a 8um Dot eXCNding RII. 9;09.000 be granted kI the O'oYl!mol' General ill'
Council to defray the chargea which will c.'OIDe io OOUI'Ie of p.Jlllent during the year ending the a~ cI.y or JlarC'h. 1937, in 1'8lpect. of t.be 'Foreign and Politi ear .... ep.rtmMt·.··
Mr. PreIIlden' (The on~ a Sir Abdur Rahim): Motion nJO\·ed: "That " sum not exCff<iiog RII. 9,09,000 be grent.ed kI the OoY8mOI' General ill'
Council to defray the charges which wiD come in OOIII'M of p&Jlllent doriog tne ,.r ending tbe 3bt dlY of M.rch, 193'7. in I'e&pect of tile 'Foreigll Ilid Polilicai Department'.' .
R2
J.l!IOIIU.ATn'B ,lS8BMBLY. . L9TH MARCil lU36.
P~ o . Nattl1'c 0/ tllr. Forward Policy pti"uea by tlte GOtltrKtfleKt of IPld,,,.
Mr ••• AIaf 411: Sir, I mO\'e the following:
. "That the liemaud n ~ the head 'Foreign and. Political Department' be red.uOId ~ ' RI. 100." .
The hesitation with whicb the Governmen1 has moved thiil demu)id 'iudicates that thev themselves feel that it' is an unconscionable demand. It is 11 rather difficult subject which I have to tackle today in connection with my motion, for the simple reason that the Government in the p!eni-t.ude of their exclusive wisdom generally draw 11 veil of secrec:v acrost: the frontier and seldom let Uil have a peep into affairs as they go on behind this eurtain, and that puts UI in a rather difficult o ~ on to hl\ve an accurate idea of things. But, at the same time, there are cednin -events which oannot escape notice. In 80 far 811 tbe tort4I1D 1.11.11"" It the Government is concerned, one thing is beyond .doubt, and it is t.hat i. is never diotated by India's interests. It is dictated by Tmperial interests: in fact, it. was admitted the other day by tbe Honourable-the Foreign Secretary that he-himself had sCaTcely any discretion in the mntter of either formulating or guiding the foreign policy of our country. lJe had only to corry out the behests of the British Government. Now, it is rather unfortunate that the external affairs of India shouid not be th£l exclusive OODCern of our own oountry, that our external affairs should hc the concern of another country, whose interests are in certoiTl rC'lJpe('t8, in fact in many respeots, 80 far trom being identical with ours, Ilrf' ~
in violent conflict with our interests. The Imperial intereats oC ' n~ .
have naturally o ~t England to very heavy responaibilitir':l all OVAr the world. ~ was. Q time. when England's foreign policy wit.h parti-eular referenoe to Indta was lDftuenced very largely by fear of HU8sia. At another time, it was influenced by England's view of German ambi-tions. There was another time, Sir, when French ambitions, in cert·ain quarters, influenced England's foreign policy with respect to n ~, and today we find that all thOse old· dangers have disappeared, but a new danger has appeared, namely, Japan's economic invasion of market,s within British influence, particularly India'. Now, that is a matter which (Ian only be solved when T ndia develops her own industries and when India can stem the tide of .TRpanese competition,-it mayor may not be, 11 mat.ter in which England may take interest later on, but India has got vital interest!! of hpr own. However, Sir, as T wus trying to sbow, the foreign policy of India hus been responsible latoly for extending J ndia 's invisible frontiers to somewhere beyond India'il natural frontiers. 'Va find tlmt Indin's invisible lind politioal or. rat.her foreign frontier, if J may put it that way, has now been extended almost to tho other side -of Suez. I should not be surprised, all it wus pointed out by a friend among the European Group tlw other day, to me, if it was considered to ~ Massnwn. For uU we know thia invisible front.ier line passes t o ~
Adell, MusltBt. Koweit·, Bnhrein and 80 on, it goea further and furth(\l' \tp and then it comes down again in a curvp und it enCircles Baluchistan, find then we find it proceeding along the Durand line and between t.he nuronrl line nnd tIll' nntural frontier of India. we find the Independent ter-t,o ~ . Then it, gOt1R upwllrdll. And quite recently. Sir. we find t ~t t,he. Government havtl found it necessary,-:-! do not know whether it is the IndiAn Govemment or thl:'! British o ~t, but the Government have foUlu) it necessary t.o talte over what ~ known as the Gilgit a n ~,
~ ... :; :, . THB UKNERAt; BUDOBT--Ll81' OF DEMANDS. 11aT
and by _king over this area, they have really brought the Bullsi_ frOOtier right down to our own frontier, or to put it the otheJ;. way ab.out, they have pushed the Indiall frontier forward to the ont n~ 'of' the RU88ian, frontier. Contact, Sir, aa we know, really means war; because all aeU-conscious nations haw drawn round themselveB a ring of fire. 1f.70\1 do not wish to have 1\ conflagration in your own country, then keep out of these contacts. . Let others have the contact. Let friepdly -powers be between y()u and those who are your real a~ . However, that ia the p()sit.ion.88 far as tbe Gilgit agency is .copoerned. By taking over-the Gilgit ·/igellcy, they hu ... ·e not merely made the Russian and IlId:all front.iers co-terminus, hut they have also made the Chinese, the Russian and Indian front·iers co-terrniuus with the result that if there is u con-flict tomorrow between Russia 81ld China in Sinkiang, India. will finei' herself drawn into the conflict quite unnecessarily. And it does not stop there. We find that the Indian frontier goes further north, and passins somewhere below T.ibet, it goes on to what I may call the Cbinese frontier in the East of Burma through the Shan States. It is like framing tiN· pictlire of Tndilt' with a huge big border which is full of explosive in-gTedients .. This is whllt 1 clill the forward Jlolicy _ . _ . _ . ,
TIle Honourable Sir BrlpeDdra Sircar (Law Member): Sir, may I rise to· a point of order. I got a notice from my friend, Mr. Sutyamurti, in which he. said that the motion to be moved was to reduce this grant to Rupee 1.. I hlrd no ideu that the present motion waR subatituted.
Ill. Jtreaident(The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The Chair under-stood that the real intention was to diBcus8 the policy of the Po t a~ De: partment and not to refuse supplies, which would menn expressing di8-approval of the entire Department.
The Honourable Sir lfrtpendra Sircar: Then, the qnestion will sTi8S' whether n cut motion is the proper thing to do.
Mr. PruI4ent (The Honourable Sir A.bdur Rahim): It ill a to n~ motion:
"That. the demand und@r the hl!4d 'Foreign and Politi"al nepartment' he I'educed' ..,. RIf. 100." . .
Tbe Bonoarabl. Sir Brlpeadra Ilrcar: I am only thinking of your-ruling, Sir. or rather a previous ruling 01 the Chair. I did not ~ 'ma, because I was given notice lIt ~ A.X. today that IIOmething else· would he moved.
Ill. PrtIIdent (The Honourable Sir Abdur Rahim): The Honourable-Member will find that has been the practice for a long time, and more than once it was pointed out that instead of giving all Rorts of cute io order to raise particular queatioDB of policy, there ought to be one-uniform couvention by which the token cut will be a reduction by Rs. 100. That woulcl iDdicate to the House and to the Chair a8 to what. was in-tended was to discuss the question of policy of a particular Department.
fte HoDourable lir .rlpenclr& 81fcar: I do not ohject to it, but I am drawing your attention ~ pagea 88 and 84 of Part II of Deciaions froM Ole Chair.
:-2158 J • .KaISI.ATIVI1: ASHBMHL1'.
Mr. K. AIaf Ali: 1£ the Honourable the Leader of t.he House thinkB that 1 should moye for the refusal o! Bupplies, I have not the least hesi-,
,tation to do 80, I Bee no difficulty, You have had ample notice of what' [ I)rOposed to do, and if I confine myself to something smaller, I don't Bee why there should be a grouse . . . .
fte Bcmourable Sir Kripendra Slrcar: I um 110t talking of auy grouse, )but this notice was given to me at 11-25. And, what is more, I got an official letter from Mr. SatYlmlUrti in which it was stated that something
,else was int,ended to hE' moved.
Kr. S. Satyamurtl: ~ , lUI my lIlAme hus heeu mentioned, 1 should like to say t ~. At }luge 27 of the printed agenda, which contuins the final list of cut motiolls, you will see the Bame point is mentioned, to
. discuss the exact perilous nature of the forward policy pursued by the ·Government of India. The only change has been, instead of giving them one rUI,ee, we giV<" t ~~ t l ,!, whole J.(l'llnt, mint/II Hs. 100, I t.hink he ,should b€ thankful to us.
The Bonourable Sir Brlpendra Sircar: I 11m quite aware that the 'object. of both the motions if; tIll' same. OnE' relateR t,o refusu:1 of sup-IJlies which wall intended to bl' moved, and lIOW the Mover has moved 1\ cut motion. I am labouring lIlldel' no miRapprehensioll. Muy I draw
.your nttention to page 84, Sir? This is what is st.ated hCl'e:
"All motiolls for a t~ a elimination of the whole DemKnd will be entertained ,ollly on the ground t a~ the Honourable Member wishes to refuse supplies hecaUlle he does not approve of tht' whol .. policy n n~ thaj. Demand."
Then, again, if yuu tU1'1l t.o t.Iw j-,hird paragraph, on t,he same page, you will see it is stated:
"TIm third fOI'Dl is to move IL (!ut motion for a nominal figure in order to ventilate .a specific grievance. Honourable Members al'e 8nt.itled to fix that nominal or tokeD ,ent at such figure as they like, but having regard to t ~ ruling which I have given today. and in order to facilitate the arrangement of priority for luch mo!.ions it would be deeirable if Honourable Members adopted a unifonn figure of cut, say Ra. 100. In that case they would be ablp to ventilat.e a specific (l;l'iovalwe.·'
Now, it is not a specific grievance that the Honourable Member' is ·discussing. He is discussing the whole frontier policy. 1£ I am not mis-taken, when my friend, Mr. Deaa:i, was speaking on his motion, the "St,auding Order was suspended, hut I had no notice that the same thing \V8'II done in this case also, nor was anything said that the Standing Order was being suspended, but there is no point. of substance unless there is '8 difference in the matter to be discussed under one motion or another. If that is not, 80, 1 make no point, ahout, my getting the notice at 11-25, cand so on.
Kr. Prelliclen\ (Tht> Honouruble Sir Ahdur Rahim): The Chair docs not think anything else was int,ended.The idea WRS to discuss the policy of a particular Depl\rtment uTld<!r u out motion. The Honourhhle Member, Mr. Asllf Ali, llflO h8\,(' fi\'e minut,t'll more.
Kr. K. Alaf All: Mr. l'resident. I 8.m very sorry that the t.eader of the Housel,thought it necell88ry to raisa t,his point of order rather late In the -day and ioterruptpd me whilE' I WIIS going on with my Brguments. However,
THE OBNBllAL BUDGBT-LIST 01' DBMANDS •
. ~ was just saying that the pursuit of Uus forward policy b)' \the Government.
.'h88 created u. perilous state of affairs, because of penetration into tbis no-man's land, all I may call it, which lies betwe6tl the na.tural f1'Olltiers of India and the frontiers of other countries-the penetration . into this no·man's land in various ways leads to conflicts of all kinds, leads to commitments of all kinds, and leaves behind it a legacy of bitterness in thOStl areas which may at any given t~ flare up into a terriblo oonflagratioll, IU8J be at a critical time. The effect. of this policy, in so far as the actual demand is t'.oncerDed. are reflected in the rise of expenditure, ·not merely incurred on tilt' .F'oreign·und Political Department·, but on what I may call the connected
. serviees, namely, t.he Watch und Wllrd, and the Defence S('rviccs, and I vhnll just. t.ry to indicate i.he ~ . which has occurred in thes(' depurt· m('Jltil. 'fllke, for iustanc(', t.he Wut.ch lind Ward Departmtmt.. 'Vtl find thllt t.he differencl' bet.wecn t, ~ pxpendit.ure incurred in 1985·86 und that proposed to be spent in 1986·87, is somet-hing like Rs. 8,16,000. Govern· lDent now provose to spend Rs. 8,ltl,OOO more on t.he Wntch and Ward t.han t ~. werl' vrl'pllred to do in 1935·36. Again, on Defence H(lrvi(lcs, t '~ ar!' (,(·rtninly /!,Oill/!, f,(, Io\re'nd :t gTt'nt df'1I1 more t.his time HUlD tllt1y did, we shall sa.y, in 1983·84. 'l'hiil t.ime it illl Hs. 45'45 crores, and we must add to that 2 crores lost on t nt. ~ railwa;ys. Take, for instance, the Forl'ihq} ~ Political Depart.ment. it.self. The excess oytlr t.he expenditure uf lWi3·34 is som(,t.hing like Rs. ] ,60,000. This indicut.tls that thtl work "r t.Il1· Por"igll and PolitieR.1 nt·pnrtmrnt. has increased sino(l 19.'J9·34. In
·"hal resptlot& has that. incrcustld'l It. has increased simply becau8e· the GovernmE'nt ore pursuing a policy of greater and greater commitments from du., to dll;v. As 1 hove suid hefore, for instance, taking thi8 Gilgit. Agency, thl') have entered int.o commit.mente of a very grave nature, and I should 001. hI" !!Ilrprised if the Additionol Secretory, t·he temporary Joi.t Secretary, lLnd nil the other )Jllraphemnlin t.hat. tht'y have now added to the Department are duc· t<l t.hut. It lOa)' lIot. bp due t·o that; my Honourable friend, Sir Aubr(',' Metculfe, suys it, is not due to that.. Well, probably, he will be able to eXl'luin how t.hl·Sr. nppointmt'nts 1Ia,·e come to be made in t·he DepArt. lDt:'nt.
Hir. it is really the foreign policy of a country which diotates the defence plum, of the country. If you are on friendly terms with your.peighbo:urs. you de> not. pile up armaments, but if you happen to be in a &tate of precarious rE'lniiclIlship with your neighbours, naturally you think of piling up arma·
. ItWlltt; upon armaments, and that is what has been happening in India for Y('orK and years and years, resulting in draining away the treasures and blond of the tlOllntry. In all otht'r cOllntries we find that in peace timea ttl(' Hrmy is kept on a. peace establishment baBis, but what do we find in :India:' Has India ever had any pell(\e estubliehment baais at 811? In Judi;( the urmy has ulways been kept on B war establishment baeis. And ~' is it 80? Simply because the foreign policy pursued is ruinous to the
. c(luntry, becullse it iA not e::mrPh·ed in t.hf) interellts of the country; it· is eom·dved in Iml't'rinl inh'rflsts.
The originating centre of India's foreign poliey is Great Britain. They tull, very glibly of (',oUectivt' security there. There was 8 time when they
."'cli()ved in the balnncc of pmH'r, secret treaties and pacts. Tuday they are tolking of collective B ~ t. . I respectfully submit that there can be no collective security without collective sacrifice. If the nations of this earth, if "he powers of this earth, are not prepared to make colleotive aacrilicell, .tbey ought not to lool( f"rwarci to any collective security, but even taking them at their word, what doea that 1'0lJecth·e eecurity mean? l.'hat mea ...
LJlOISf.,\TIVIIl A,88JJ1,(BLY. . {9TH MARCH ~
, '[Mr. M. Asaf Ali.] tlie coll'ccth'e security of the possessiOlls of' aggressive powets tbroughout. the world. H renlly means the security of their possessions, the security of their colonies, thes8curity of their dependencies. It means 8n easy method of obtnining markets and ohttliriing countries frolll, where they ~ cJ,raw raw materinls. 'this is whut they l'elllly m",u[; by coUtlctive securily. They do not menli the collective securit,y of hUlniUlity. 'l'his oollectivI:l aecurity t,o which they refer is the fool's puradise-behilJd whi(1h I find ~ hell of distractive elements, destructive factors, which may one day ()rOb ably bring ·about the ruin of the whole civilised world itself, It is iUll that centre that the foreign policy gf Indin is being l·onceived, in t·heir own interest.s, Ilnd not in tbe imel'est,s of Indio.
H has beeri proved time lIud agaiu ihut the p()liey wllich tlw Indiull Government hnw pursued with reglll'd to the North·\Vest Frontiel' is lui intolerablt' burdtm on the tuxpilyer. It has 11180 pron·d irksome lind ~ tsting to those bran' lind hurd:,' tribesmen whose courage nnd ",hoile .love 'If independence callnot be denied and who must always bl' respected llIid atoe really respected I.IS first, class fighting soldier8. They love theil' independence !lnu they plizt' it lllore thau thcil.· lives. Tf ,Youdrivewedg('s into their territory, it naturally irrit.lltes t,hem and thut brings you illto· conflict with tllt:m. Why do the Government, pilrsu{I thiR policy:' An ullchllritable critic might he IJrepured to SIlY, it is .only j list, to lcepl' t lIP armies in fighting trim. But that is not all. It is possible for the urmieif to keep themselves in good trim also by seeking all sorts of protext!! to find oOllasions to come into conflict wit,h these tribe!!, Let us now cast· a glance· at. the hish,ry of the operutions Gil tlwsc frontiers. T may here just say u word about the ebb and flow or mrioll!! policies during the lust fifty "cart!. There was a time when there W:IS the Iorwlird policy, tlHm there ~ the· half forward policy. 'fhen t lwrll WIlS t,he close border policy, then hit and N'liirfl poli"y, nil these lire various phases of the one activity which t ~ Government of India have pUl'sued ill thHt pillct:' , JlIunely, seeking !lonw opportunity or nnother to l'xte>nd t,h(· IInturlll frontit'r of Tndia into thl' no-man's lund.
. JIr; Preatdent (1'he Honourable Sir Ahdur Rahim): 'fill' Chilir has Illrelloy allowed the Honourable ~ ' fivt' minutt's mort'.
~ .•. Ala! ,A,U: I Sill bl'illging ~ speech t{, u clolle. 1 W'JS just ~' ~t if we cast a glallce at the 0}lel'utl0118 of the Governwtlnt 011 the North-West Frontier, we find that eve1'Y tima they ha.ve followed this o a~ policy it bus me!lnt ruiuutioll, it has 11ll1ant destruction. Sir, I think it wus OR the 5tb March. 192!l, that'Sir Denys Bray, the ~ o of Sir Auhl't'y Metaalfe Dlilde a stat.ement of the Hovernment's policy with regllrd t.o t.hl.' Frontier. Hl' ddinitel;y stuted then tbllt tllll Government wer(; committed to a forwurd policy. Only he expluined that the forward polic.y, to ",hi,·h ~ Government were committed, was oue of civilising th('se )lIlciviliflcd" people. I leuve it to the Honourahl(· M ~ n \VllO rt'prcsents thl' Frontilw Province to j \latif, t.he Sbih'lllllOt or contradict; it.. as the case mllV be hut .hat is what Sir Denys Bray said at the time. 'rhut nolicv has ;lOt b('('1\ va.ri':4. since then. . The fll'!!t circular rond mea.nt t.he quartering of troopH in "szlr1stan. The second attempt meant the quurtering of t,roops in t,he' Ilohmand. territory and the proposed road which they are thinking of now !bay mean perhaps the revivnl of thl' bombing. bribing and hrowbeatinf:!' ot-
TilE UJo:Nl!:ltAI.' Bl'll1iET-LJS'I' ~' I)XMANUS. lUll
these poor I)CoplE' ugHin, 'flint is n ruinous policy I6ndldl, Wtl (lUll do. jll this UO/-lsc, helpless us Wt, 111'1', is to (mtel' nil emI,hatil' protest IlgllinRt. t ~
.policy by IW('f'pt-ing the motion whidl r huve movecl.
Jrr.·PrtaldeDt (TIll' Honollrllhlc Sir Ahelur Hahim): Cut o on o~' ,
"That till' demand undt'l' t.hl' head '}o'orf'igll a"d l'ulitil'IIJ Ilf.p,,,,tnlf nt' b.. J·p.ducfod' by B •. 100," .
... llDa Bhauka' .&It ~ t t'R (If Ult· United, }'ruvinc.ell: Muha1l1madiUl Urban) : Sir, I will rIOt tuktl VIlIj' long ill supporting this cut. I know nothing "bout other frontierll of Intlill, but [ know IL littll' bit of the North·WeRt Jfrontier, wit.h which wt' ure all fumilillr. 1 lun'e heen in touch with BOnn! (If the bral'e tribes who live lIerORS Uw border, nnd I have betln ill touch with the present Government of Afghllnistlln, lind I hll\'e come to this COli-elusion thnt. if Governnwnt. insillt on t.rying tQ civilisu thelW PB9Pltl. browb.eat tlwse II<'opl(, lind intimidnte them und muke dIem UIj weak AS WI! are and ~ ~ UIl'ITi, then thl'r(' is nothing l'ise hut· a tl'cmendoull IO,t -.If trouble fOl' whinh the;v alone will he rt'8J1ol1siblt-. And I wish to tell them this, that if t,hey st-urt to do whllt,. tlw.y did with l\lohnuHlds Inst year. whell they forcibl:v Luilt tht'st-rrnlds, lind if the,\' wnllt to deprive these bra\'(' p£Ople of their f"P£'dorn and country, t·hen the t~ CJf t.he }<'rontior t t~ .
including' Afghnnistan. which is. now strong and cllpable of taking care of its cou8ins, will be up for a tremendous Aght. As a God·fearing Muslim, 1 wilJ t-E'II you thut no 'Ood.fe'lIrinsMuslim in India, soldier or civilian. wh", tlhinks of his eternal salvation, will be able to give any Iwlp to tIle :British., if they keep lip this Jloliny. I wllnt t,p t,ell them t.hat. in ull conscience. India is big enough anel ought to be sufficient for them. Your a~at frcntiet is the Indus. Stick to t,hat. If thl' peoplo of thc five frontier districts--!'pslmwf\.l', Abvt.t.nhucI, und Dl'J"I Ismuil Khan lind (,t.her di&trich., wunt to be pill"" of lndill. they IIrp quit.e welc!HllI', hut J do Imow thllt no· independent tribe likes to be under tlwllritish coutrol. Thc,Y like to hU\,'l t.beil' money. Cmres of Indian moof'.v hllve hP.en given to them 8S brihe ... 'fhf. exp(mdit,ure on this Rccount hy been t'normOU8. I know t,he. KhlluM bove been puid to ~ t 118 ug(!DtB, TherH ill no question or douht ubout H, WhElll 1 W8S last in the }i'rontil'..l', 1 was in that Khajri plAin and I a~ tit .. Afridis there, and. the Afridi women in their ",int.el' quarters. When the Tiruh, their country home, t~t vt'r,v cold and it is snowing t·here. t.lw;v bring their families und their cattle to this huge plain which has been their winter quarters for centuries. J SRW the Ourkha nnd British tNo1)! in canll' there. Rnd whcn tJle Afridi we,men were going about for grazing theil' eattI,', Ii} or 12 sturdy Alridis waited ne"r by, looked Rftf'I' them ond suw ttmt t '~'
,,"ere not insulted hy anybody. Those Mridis put t·heir case before mp and I co\Jtd lItIe (.learly, ttlut, when they saw an Army Camp on 8 football ~n for the British Ilnd thc Gurkhas, they ftllrcd up Rnd they were verJ indignant. If you wlintto build up in that part II civiliantion in future, then please go abollt it. in the right WRY, nnd dl) not ruh t,hem up the wrong way. If England wnnts to spenel English money there, Rhe may do what she likes, but we Indillns huv(. no (tullrrel wit.b them. Wfl do not wunt one inch of their lunds, thnt i8 not ours. If Afglumistllll wunt.& to attack our brethrell in tlltl Frontier provi nell , -lin id(·:\ which Afghanistsll and its brave pearl,· resent Bnd deny indignantly-sno wllnts to attack Indin proper. it win he t ~ duty of every Muslim. \vho calls Indin his homC', t() Jto IIlId tight uguinf4f. his own Muslim brethren in defence of hia country,-Indin, but it will bo the greutC'Rt misforhm(', if. in t.h!' "limp of Indin. t ~ ' hruvl' p!'opl(' Ill'," robhpd
'2102 LBGlSI.A'rIVE ASl'lBMBJ.Y. rQ-rH ;\fARCH 198&.
[Maulana Shaukat Ali.]
of their hearths and homes and, as far us I lUll concerned, I will declare that I will become an outlaw Again and fight and die for my brethren there. 1 am a peace maker. PeeJple muy laugh fit it, but I nm. I must warn my English friends nnd 111:,/ friend, the Foreign Secretary, for whom I have' ,.'erson,,} regard, that India is big enough and the British Empire is still higger. You have got Callada, Austrlllill and other plRces where millions of . u('.res of land are ~' n fallow. Wby do you go nnd trouble these people :(.Ieross the Frontier? In the last Great War, Arab lands and Turkiah lands were involved. 1 do not want tc bring in ~R t n . I will have a talk privately with my friend, the Foreign Secretllry, lind tell him what Mussal-11181111 feel about ]lalestinE'. I know ther., will be tremendous trouble one ·day on account.. of bringing in ;Tews from Russia and EBstern Europe ....
JIr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdur ltuhim): 'rhe Choir would 'milt the Honourahle Mp.mber to confine himRclf t.n t.hf' mol'ion before the House .
• aulana Shaukat Ali: "er,V well. 8ir, but 1 will BUY this. We will beg this Government on our knees nnd osk them uo\' t~ han],ur after u few thC:l1sand barren acres across the ~ an Front·ier. At one time, British
~o we're efil1ting eyes on Afghanistan. 'l')wy fllil(,d milleruhl,Y. Afghanist,an has now a strong and powerful Government, thank God, and t,hey call take care of themselves. If RllsRin wants 10 :,1.Inc1\ Tndia, Afghanistan is strong enough to stoll Russia and thtl 350 millions of people in India must be strong enough to defend their OW11 countr;)'. If this Ooyernmeut dO!.'R not listen to us, t.hen, certainly, r shall cClI!;urc them and do my best k' Stle thnt, they fnil in this forward policy which will be very injurious 1;0 th£' ~ t. and alllO ~ bud for th(' BritiRh EIlJpire.
JIr. Q ••• 1'. TottlDham (Secretary, Defellee Departmeut): If 1 inter-• 11 vene in this debate for a few minutes, it is because the Army ill p ••. directly interested in the Fronttier, and also hecause t.he Honourable
. the Mover and the Honourable Member who foBowed him both referred to
.the doings of the army in that part of the world. It. may also be of use to t,ht' House if I place before them eel'tnin facts und t ~ as 1\ background .for t,his debate to show the way in whieh ~. in the Army, look at this particular problem. AU these facts and figures IIrc contn.ined in B pamphlet that we issued a feVl' years ago ond which, I am afraid, has not been read nearly as much as it ought to he. but I will, if the House permits, ·quote a few extracts from tbat pamphlet. I do not think it is a question . of any desire on our part to expand our territory. I\S the ]8st Honourable Member seemed to think: it is a question of giving protection and security to tbe inhnhit-nnt'R of British InoiA. No\\,. Rir. t ~ if; ",hAt· thp pRmflhlet "88)'S:
"net Wl'ell what iM known 1\8 thE' 'lIdrniuistrative' hord.,., and tlw true froDtier of thEl North·wEllt. of India, that. is the Durand line, there lies a belt of tribal ·territory on~ ... ne thouRlmd milea in I"ngt.h (/ ,"i"l· t"nt ~ M.~ fin ,zagUefW-tiOlt) , and inbal,ited by a pc pUlation who, from tim" immNJIorial, han punued 'tile good old I"ulp, the simpl!" plan. that. t.hnRt' Khnuld takE' who have t.he power. and thoMI ,.bould ~ ' who call'."
JIr: S. Satyamurti: That is thf' B"itish rillE', iRn't it?
TilE ~ . JIl'nOBT--J,I!'IT 0 .. J)XMANJ)S. 2UtS
~. G. 11., ... Tottenham: "Every grown man is a potential warrior: theil' combined fighting atrengtJ! may
'-be pot at r.ea..ty half a million; and, thl'y POUl''' betwern them, at least 250,000 rilles, moat of which are modem weapons of precision. The man behind the gun i. probably .. good a marksman 3.8 i8 to be found in any part of the world (Hear, Aear); I/ond the character of the country ~ luch as to lend itself admirably to tI.e guerilla warfare in which its inhabitants excel. The arid and rocky nature of the BOil precludes the 'possibiliTY of earning a Iivplihood from the pursuits of ~ and for centuries theae lDen h&ve looked UPOIl their more wealt,hy. bnt 11'.8 Virile, neighbours in the plains
·of India lIB their l.-gitimat.. prI'Y."
That., Sir, is t.he main point. 'fhtm, so far as the army is concernod we are accused of spending enormous Bums of money (unnecessarily no doubt), but the facts. !iO fllr as the North-West Frontier is concerllf'd, art' as follows, and this is Again /l quot,llt.ion from the pamphlet:
"Against I/o menace of this (,haracte!. and extent is colUltantly opposed a forct' of ;abo!!t .~ regular troops .. In addition ,there are thp irregular o at o~t varlou, bodies of IightlY'f'qUipped and molule Scouts and Levi_to whom a refl'r· .ence has already bPl'n maul', Thf' ~t ' n t of t,heae latter forcel may be put at about 15,000 men; hut, valuable as their work undoubtedly ie, their trainiQg and organization impo&c obviou. limit.'1tions Oil their utility; and it ia on the regular 'armed forces that, the ult.imate retponaibility for the peace of the Frontier muat lie, That the menace is not an unreal OM is proved hy the fact that in the Jut 70 velU'l ~ have heen 110 lesp than 2b major campaigns on the Frontier not to mention Innumerable raids nn'!. xmRII punitivl' expeditions," •
And. now, this is t.he most important point, of all: . ~ is intereating to note in this context t.hat j,hp average cost of operations on the Frontier nnder the cloNe· border policy from 1895 to 1919 W&8 in the neighbourhood of Rs. 50 lakhs a year. The 'rhird Afghan war and the occupation of WaziriBt&n from 1919 to 1924 cost. nparly Rs. 11 crores .. year, SinC'e 1924 under t:le prell8nt policy .of, civilization an~ the quartering of troops in tribal are'aa, combined with the ·eXl8tMce of the air arm. the expenditure on operation. up to Apt'i1. 1934, had fnlleD .to H,s, 121 :akhs 1\ YeRr." (Heal', hMr,)
.An Honourable Kember: What. ahout t,h£' hack to the Indus poliey?
Mr. G. 11.. P. Tottenham: Wtlll, !::!ir, Honourable Members are conti-nually complaining that the Defence Budget is too high, and that we ought .to leduce it, but Honourable Members, I do suggest, sometimes forget. ihat. however much it may coet to maintain an army, it costs a gred .deal more to use it. Honourable Members seem to think that thcI only postlible way of reducing your army expenditure iR to reduce the Dl1mber. ·of the army; but I suggest to them that there is another and B better method of reducing defence expenditure and that is to try and t..~ such conditions, especially on the frontier, as will make it less necessary to .use the army than it has heen in tbe past, Surely, Sir, it it;! better \.0 spend lakhs, quite B large number of lakhs, On building roads for the pur-poses of peace Rnd civili?ation t.han to spend crOT('8, and quite a large number of crores. on fighting people alld dealing out, death and destruct·ivn. Tho1, Sir. is all I hllve to SR:-,' on this motion,
Dr. Khan Sahib (North-WeRt Frontier Provine(': Genernl): Rir,] risl' t.o ~ o t this motion and to submit t.o thE' House certain points sped-fiC'allv economical,-beC'-nuse you will all ~ ' ' with me that· ~ repre-sentatives of tbe moneylendcrll from England never ~o an t ~n unlen they can get gold out of it; nnd anything t,hcy touch IR for th'.s purposp .akne. nR ~ .. to havp monE'.\' out of it. Now. if you examine thIS forward
· U:OISLATI\'E ASIlKMIIL"- ,[O'rH ~ . R ' 1986 ..
, . lDr. Khlln Sahib.] .. ,
o , o t ~ , you will see that t. ~ ill' llU on ~ . 'fhe I:)hyluck cuimot sceilt gold In the rocky and arid mountains of the Afridis or W sEiril!l. then, wbat is it which induces them tu ClIl'ry on' this forward policy? Sir,: y(m will note tbat after establishing the Razmakcantonment, flS vou call it, 'or a. big place on ~ they have spent crores lind croreli of rupees,' have they decreased, any of the other bodiell which :ue the causes of this. expellse? I think my Honouruble friend from KArachi cnUs it "Watoh Ilnd Ward"? It is for theRe thing-s·that the.v want to carry on the forwllrii' policy: they want to go t.hcre, und then er(lllte bodies, from which to draw money for this purpose. Sir,.r shall mention to you only a few of these bodies: the Kurrmn militia, the Bout·h WR1.iristnn ·Scouts, the Zhob militia, the Ohitral and Gilgit ~o t. , n so on, nnd t.hese· bodieFl are' ofticered only by Eurol'eflns. ~o Inaian iR"yet tit tH be nn <,>ffii-er of sue'h' a,.hody, nnd the pay of u Lieutenant, that iI!, 1;he UJ.ost juniQr officer, you will be surprised to know, is Re. 1,200,actuaillay, and, on the top of it,.: he receives ~ o Rs. 300 .to 400 8S .~ . " o,,~ .these Ilre ... t.he ~ rel!.80118 which forCle tJlelD to earry on this. forwllrdpohcy;' ot ' ~'
they cannot create bodies like that. Now, we Pathans on our side ClaIr this expense. "the mOllntain'!; account", thtl account . of the dark hills. NoIxldy cfl.llask thelll for ·this account and they nre responsible to lIone. We have, ... ·the Honourable Members 'know, time after 1ime IIskedthiA Gr,vemment to shoW' liS how they spend the money, but still we he'lr nothing. They say they want to protect us. (Laughter.) The Honourable Member who representR the army reael out sonwthing aM regards the policy but he did not give us It single point showing when the Afridis ever cRme. and attempted to tR ~ India. When, I ask, did t,hey ever eome down on UlI, without provocation? As regards these little raids on the frontier which he mentioned, these ~ conllnittecl by people who have run away into the tribal territor v and are outlaws, Md they come back with the conllent of the police aiul loot the people. There ~ no rAid ~' the Afriail inb India. Otherwise, let them give t~ Illl ~ .
Sir Aubrey •• t.calf. (Foreign I:)e('retnry): Whnt IIbOllt. 1900:'
Dr. Db SIblb: Because the Government were responsible fol' that. Mv Honourable friend h8s refened to the PeRhRwRr firing, and I ~
~ that 'point. In the Peshawar firing, 250 nno~ nt. people were' killed' i1ie1ilding some Afridis. That. brought the Afridis down with a view toO pto'l!ecting the innocent. The Afridis are 8 very ~ nnc1 honest people, and they only do ~ ta n things on provocat.ion.
the other day, I mentioned nhout t.he HI!. :; tliX wliich the Government' hQ.ve imposed on those poor peol)lt'. They put. in t·llree applications, Ollt' to the Deputy Commissioner, Kohat., who is t,lIe Political Officer, another to the Governor of t·he Frontiel' and one WUI! sent t'O the Viceroy. Nobodl takes any notice. The Government BRy they a.re living in those rugge¢l mountains with nothing to feed upon. ~t, when t:heR(l pOOr people cut a lit·tle firewood and bring it down, f\ tnx is levied on them. Saying is 01K' thing and doing is ullot.he.· with the' OOVl'rnment. They have no sympathy. They have got only ODe purpostl and tl,lat is, drinking other people's blood. The Government emborked upon the last Mol:imand ex-pedition ,with the intention of muking n Dew rol!od. They spent 12 lakhll OVNthat; What is the advllJltage t,o India 1. We hnve lost 12 a~ ~ ~ money and many soldiers on our ~ lost t.heir lives. On thE' ot ~
· ,.:, TilE Il¥.X EII.U. IIl'DGKT-UtoT 0.. DEMAND ...
:.&leo we have killed our brethren. E"'eryUung muat .bt>. judged ~' t,lie 1'e8u)t and the net IJrofit,. guined. The llet profit is thld IIII1Dy iOll()(t.ent ~ lost their Ii,'e!; and R lot of IllOnl',\' was wRsted, I&nd I do not krJOW 'wbether r,o per cent. (If ·the on ~ did not (10 into t ~ ,.ockets of the .. -fortune hunters. They WBut, to build idiot her fORd from LAndi Kotnl to Lachi. I think t. ~ "'U8 a jir91', nnd I do not know whether thiH iii going 011 even now, I think the GoveruOr spoke to them and tbe k'Ol'eip 8ecret08fv also wal there at t.lre time, 'fhen t ~ Afridis, those aeation. of tbem "who are under the Government influence, havt> put in applicatioa which I will read out to the HouRe:
"We, the Afrirli •• han ~t to Your ExceIlfln('," IIpeech nry ca ... fully: Wfl ha.. conllid .... d it. alld 161'1' very ~ an to you for yow' keepiog alway. in lIIind the improvement of ou)' ('nudi.iIlDs. Your EXCIIl1fl11CV hu fm'thN .tated that OIl account of t,hl' last, fl'''' inddent.M thl' U"iti"h f'.oVI'M1RIl'nt ha,'" no faith hift. ill oiar IIOOdwill and that is why Uto Afridia are expelled from t.ht' AmIY. Your EXCf!l1eriCy laya ta~ if we I'flgain your confidl'flce and 'Rt.a ~ ati.factory re.latignll with 'your Govemment., you I' GoveMlmeDt. will agrel' to rnliRt u, again in the arm" For .subliahing gc.od relatione you put forward B plan I,hat. a l'OIld "'ould be. conlltrl1cte4 in Thera. To hegin with, your Excellency proposeR thp fllllowinjt ~t . that. in thia winter a roa:! .hould be conatnu:tfld from ... Ii MaRjid to r.hul'll Khandawl); with the following conditions, We A(!('ept. t.hl.: ,
(1) This will he our national road. 110 army (JI' police will hI' allotll'ed on tb. road without thAI COIIll&llt of the Afridi.. DlU'ing war tim. !.he ... d will be free lor the use of trooPI. Thill arl'IIIIjt8ment ,hall hllVe no elert 011 OUI' prN4'nt allnlfBm1!'. (2) No land rf'venu<, 01' water tax IIhould be levied,
(3) On the on~t t tn oi t.hill road. .thl' GDnmmellt will ha," .. \111 "isbt to ~.t fere wiUI the internal affail'B of the Afrldil, No road should h. I'on.t,r,lcted be10n4' the CJJura Khandawl) "'ithoul th .. ('OnMent of th,' trih. through whotil' tf'rrituriflll t.bt! toad PaMel, . , .
(4,. The cOlltrlll:t 1(11' th" "ollotrlll1,illll ~ hI' !rh'l'lI In thr Afridi .. ullly and DoiJody elle, '
(5) 011 IlAtahliilhing good r"l .. t ~ IVI' hop" t,h(l n"",,,,"mflnt. ",ill runaidl'l' saud Ialllp .0 "he ilPl) .... ~ nt at our ('Oudilion."
I am Rurc, Sir, you St'(' 1.111' diffi(,ultit'l! ill thilol 1'01111. 1'hl' pt!oplp who have' signed t.he nppli('nt,joJ\ urt-' not !'eally th,(, repres('utntiveli of nil the tribes 01 Thern, beclUlse ROllle of the Abidi tribcs do not ~ ' d9wn nt aU, 'Thuy have nothing to do with this GOVtlrnment, but t.hey mlly hc infhll.'nl:e(f h\' these tribes .who are under the t,humb of the Govemment, Bo, by ninkin!{ a road like that, I do not know how much it will (lOSt. I "RHure -th,; Bouse that no Afridi will permit a road into Thera unless his life is t.aken lint. As you know, lasb time, when I was speaking itl thil! HOIlRf' ~ I.rought to your notice the application which t ~' had sent to thill House. I wonder why Oovprmllent want. to go to ot.h('r people '" ' t ~, Rnd spend money o~ it. The Government are ulwaYH B ~ n to the Russian bogey. Now, Sir, Y9U lmow, as soon ns the Boishevlkfl caml'! to power, the first letter whi(:h I.cnin wrotE' to AmanullRh 'Khon was that ·t,he Afghan territory in the hands of HURsio will be rc!urned and that t,he 'lluisiani would also financinlly help AfghaniRtan too.
Lleut.-OoloDel Sir BeIU'J GidDe,. ~ nBt Non-Offidnl): Quolltitm,
Dr. Dan Sahib: T think my HonollrBbte friend ought M read the lnanifeato of Lenin and Redek in which they described how the freedom of Persia W&8 in jeopardy o\\'ing til thp. tyranny of t,he Czar on tlwODe tid'> anel. the tvrannv of the Bri.tiah Government on tbfl ot-ht'r, and ho. tilE two powers divided t. ~ IIpbf'reR of inflnp.nClf' in PPl'8iR between them.
[9T1I MARCH 1986_
[DI·. Khan Sahib.] Practically, when the Bolsheviks CUlIlc into power, they set free Persia.. 80 you see who is guilty. The Bolsheviks have come to help the poor' and to release people from their tyranny. On the frontier all these things. are happening because of the Political Department. The Pathans are ~ humorous people. They understand the intrigues of the Political Depart-ment well. When they want to tell a IUan that he is not telling the truth they tell him. "Oh, you are a political man". The P!,tijpJ;l.s have got 0. very keen sense of understanding. I will read to you some opinionll of a. peat Englishman which correspond with thRt of the Pathans. In his journal' at page 158, General Gordon says:
"I must Ray I hate our diplomatiAts. I think with few exceptions they are arrant humbugs and I expect. they know. I include the Colvin claRR." In anot,her place of the same journnl, he writes:
"We al'e an honest na.tion." -and I agree with him,-
"but Gur diplomatists are on ~ and not officially hOlle8t." Again, I agree with him too.
Oaptain Sardar Sher Kuhammad Kha.n (Nolllinated Non-Official): He· wal:! a soldier and not a politician.
Dr. Khan Sahib: I like soldiers, and not poiiticilUls. So, Sir, I think I have made it clear to the House thut this forwnrd policy has got some-thing else in view. Even the aeroplanes whieh fly there or the motor em's,-all these are for economic purposes. India loses everything lind it ail goes to the foreign countries. So, in forward policy, ther9 is no· gain for us. Apart {rom this money, ~ are always losil1g and will lose. still further, more lives. Let us protect from this Government the lives of our young people, whieh at least we can to a eertRin extent do .
• awvi Syed Kurtula Sahib Bahadur (South Madra!!: Muhammadan): Sir, in supporting this motion, I have to invite the attention of Govern-ment to the saying of one Persian philosopher who says:
"Kar·e khuu /CUII kaT-e baigano "taklln. Har ZIII1IUn'f digura" khanu makun."
"You had better mind your own business: do not make inroads into the dominions of others, literally means that don't you put up any buildinlJll· ')n other's land ..
(Interruption from Major Nawub Ahmad Nawaz Khan.)
If my Honourable friend,. Major Nawab Ahmad Na.waz Khan, thinks my tl'anslation is not correet, Jet him come forward nnd challenge me'. Whllt iR the use of whispering?
Sir, let, me now come to the' point. Last year, when ,,8um of 2fi lakhs of I'UlWeR WIlS set apart for putting up roads into the tribal nrCB, it was urged by the Finance Member that there was R request made by the· tribes to the effect that roads should be constructed in their land. Thst statement WAS refuted by my Honourable friead. Dr. Khan Sahib, then and Lhef('. He allowed letters to the contrary duly signed by t ~ Afridil
Tal: OBNKftAL BUDGET-LIST OJ' DBMAND!!. 2187'
aDd sent. O\'t'r here. But" t'Vt'U theu lhtl road WIUI put· up, IUld what WI\S She result? As has been point.ed out to t.he Hou St' , 110 many U"6S lvere ~t and so mueh money was IIpent for nothing. 'rhis policy, 8S was pOlllted out by my Honourable friend, the Army Hecreturv, itt said to be a civilising poli<'y. ThiN kind of civilisation is' not nt, ail relished nor do thu Afrid!s ' n~~ t~ ('ivilisRtioll for even II single moment. Why do. you foreC' thIS ('IVlhsnt'1011 UpOIl UII'm .,,"'hen they do not want it'! And if you Rre so keen on t.his kivd of civilising influence being htnll¢lt· about th"I'C, wll:1I do you not; to t' a ~ t.he !lIlIIW thing in the clIse of Italv who wants to civiJise Abyssinill lIod ill t, n ~ Clhere? 'fhi!'! very Govern-ment hAil been npplying the lIaDNiom:; t,herofortl, t·here is no n~ in saying in one breath thnt. the fOfward poli('Y is int·ended to prott'('t tliem, and, in anot.her brenth, thnt. thill is with II ~ to civilising them. We know whnt kind of civilisation they mean. Sir, intoxicating drinks and other ('onconmitllnts 11ft' not at nil wunted in the tribul orea; the\' hate nil tht'F1c things from f.he bottom of their henrt. I bave viaited ~ ~ borders; I haw gone RS fnr 111'1 the Dumnc1 line. Kohat, t~. I have a\so Been the· roadR ('onstructd bv the Britishers; the\' anI of no ule either to us or to the AfghanFl. ~ yenr, R~ n, they ~o o to construct additional roads: for not, n~. Then, there I1r£\ ugenb of the British Government, many of whom IIrc l\fualimR. who come over here and do propaganda in favollr of tbEl ~n t t on of ronels sRying that thereby 110 many Afridis will beN)me brend-wirIDerR. Thev would rather like to starve than have roads of this kind which are <'alclilRted to encroBch upon their t~'. Again, ~ Honourable friend, the Defence Secretary, said that the tribal people hAVe o~ R force of 21 lakhs. Where have they got this huge force from, Ilnd how is it t.hot he proposes to have only 42,000 men, i,e., one-sixth of t.hat number. to proteet R50 millions? Sir, we, on our part., cannot be 1\ }lorty to this thing. So for ns wc Bre concerned, we have lost ''\lIr floeedom and are living hl.'re the life of slaves; we do not want to see t.hem all'll) losing their freedom. This kind of inroad into tribal area is calculated to lIring about. disorder and (,reA ttl unnecessary wars, t ~. Therefore, T heartily support the motion.
)[alor Xa.ab.Ahmad Xa.u Khan (Nominated Non-Official): Sir, nearly all the spl.'nkers on thRt side of the House have tried to prove ~ t the flo-called forward pol/C'y 'Of the Oovernment of India is neither in the interf'l!t. of India nor of th'e Frontier tribes, and that it ill very expenllivt'· and is flimpJy a wBste of Indian money.
IIner&l Jroaoarable KemberS: Also Indinn lives.
JIaIOr .gab .AJuaad Xawu lDwl: That criticism is Dot correct and' tnJlJ. So far 88 my own personAl knowledge and ~ t n of the ForeiRll Offil.'e in India &R well as in England go, I thmk, whatever ateps the Government of India take in connection with the frontiers, in each and" ~ question the fol't'most ('oflsi(!eratioll .is the safety nnd a '~ ~ n~ of tht' intert'st1l of the ImliRfI RmpJre. It IS "'ell-known that IndlR 11'1 the" brighte8t jewel in the Crown of England (CTies of "Oh" nnd T.nught.er) ...
.All Boaoarable Kember: You Rre tohe brightest jewell
1Ir. 8rl PrIkIIa (Allahabad and Jhanai Divi8iC'n8: Non-Muhammadan· Burnl): You are the Kohinoor!
'2168 19TH MARCH 198ft.
Malor .awN Abmacl Baw .. Db: . . . and that England, without India, cannot remain a first class power. (Orie. of "Hear, hear. ,,), Theft!. forl' , nt a ~' nnd logicmlly, it is impossible for Fmgland that in nl) . imperial and other important questions, a8 Mr. Alaf Ali haa aaid, the ques-tion of Indian interests should not arise. In each And ~ such qut'stion, . the interesb And safety (If T ndia is considered fiNt..
:1Ir. JI. AI&f D: .... and particularly Tank.
Kajor BaW'&b Ahmad Ba"a. Kh&D: It is a question of ~ ' . "Monle · J>l'Ol'!c have always a ment.ality of looking at the BCtioll!! of G()vernrnent ,wit·h doubt. Rnd on one side. No Pea80ns (Ian convince them.
Mr. 8rl PtIk&Ia: But we have to pay for them .
. Major Bawu AhIDId •• "a. Khan: Sir, it Wilt; ut the request uf the people of t.he Settled Dist·ricts thl\t Government. made UazJl1ak 0. canton· mE-ut. in order to save them from the raids of the tribal people. Th., :flindus, the Muhammadl1Rs and the Sikhs of the Settled Districts of the ·North· W ('sl .Front,ier Provirwe and the Hindus of Bannu sent applications to t.he thpn Chief Commissioner, Sir John MaRey, praying far stopping the raids. dacoities and kidnapping a.nd the rescue of those persons who
~ , kidnupped. The Chief Commissioner l)ressed the matter, but the Politienl Department. in the Agencies eOlllplained that. the people of the · Hettled Distriet·s ~o a kidnapping bJ paying large raDIlOIII. 'l'be n t~ o t ' informed the people that the.v should not. puy ransom lind should hliv!' no ('onnection with the tribes lind thut t,he uuthoritiss would n~
bAcl( those kidnapped. Naturally, in those days, kidnapping waa greater flntong thp rich Hindus t.han among the poor Muslims. The people whose relntives \\--crc kidnapped waited patit'ntly. In the meantime. the kidnap· pers killed one out of the severnl kidnapped persons and sent his hend t.1 t.he relntiveR wit.h II message that, if such and sueh a sum us runsom WSI 1I0t plli(i. Rimiln,· t,rentnwnt would he mel;ed out to the otherp,. Thev then W('l\t to I he Deputy CommisRioner, Elhowed the head of the mU:rdered person lind nsked how long t,hey were to WRit for the orders of Government. · Thn Rniel thllt if Government could not save them, the,· eould ItOt, wait till ~ ' . ~ kidnapped hud been hehended. The Chief CommissiOllt'lr t.hen issue..-] 11 very strong circular letter to all the Political ~ nt and the Deputy ~n . Tlwre is lin offteial oireullir letter which I can show 10 Honouruble Members. and they will be quite cOllvinced thai it. WIIS 1\
~ strong let.ter,-cmn I /lsk my frienel, Dr. 'Khan Sahib, aDd every other supporter of tht' ('ul moti(,n. if t. ~' r.nu !;how 1\ Rtron/Zcr letter than thil> froUl n. Chid Commissioner to nil European Political Agarits nod the
t~ Commissioners of the Nort.h·West Frontier Provinee? He enquired why t.he dist;rir.tfl were being looted, why these l'aids were talrin/i pIllet', 1l00i why. wh('n the dist.ricts ~ n part of Rritish India, the people should be trpntl:cl in s\l(·h n brutal wn,v, specially when there were military (>.aft-tonmentR in pnell dist.rict of t,hl' provln('e. What for is the KinllJl· Brmv I hun, and. whv. if people were ki(lnapped· in this nn~ , the Gt'Iv';,nnlle.' Rhould f'xi!!t? . Tbe resu1t WIlS that t.he rnids were stopped and n n~ !'llused liS II. (·ol1sequence of t.his new policy whicit the HOliourahle· "'1t1mberlJ cr,ticise. Y.ou Jwed not take t.his 811 R 1lO8pel truth from me: hili "Oil ('1111 IIl'k yonr OWI1 nwn. t,lIe HindulI, the lKnbllJ'illnrulana a1l4 t·hp.
~ .
~ II. AIaf AU: It is not a MUasalman questiOrt: it'r.. an' ·'IDldian qu\:'&tion we .are teJking . about.
a~ .a~ Ahmad lfawu Kb&D.:. On acoount of pressure from people who said that If. Government coul? no~ stop these ~a properly, then they shl·uld leave thiS country and give It to Afghamstan or any other king who could manage it properly, that this policy of making Hazmak a big c811t·onment was started by the Government. The Honourable Sir Muham-mad Shafi, who was 11 Member of the Executive Council of the Government of lndia then, and Sir William Vincent, had toured in the ' o t ~ t Frontier l>rovince and actually discussed this matber on the spot with the pe{Jple of the locality, fWd then this policy was started. This forward policy was not, as some Honourable Members and people think, for the greed or aggrandisement of the country. It is a barren country it does not pay the Government, it is a burden to them, but it is only for the protec-tion and safety of the people of Settled DistriC'ts that the GoverDrOE!ntweDt there in the tribal territory, opened the country and eatab1ished a canton-ment. Now, the tribal people lire so much benefited by this policy t·hat they will not nllo\\' t,he GovPJ'Oment, t.o leave t.he cant{)nment,. '
Ill. )[. A. Jinnab (Bombuy clt,y: Muhammadan Urban): Would you ll110w me to uRk a question? When wus this policy started ond when will it £:Dd?
Kajor .awab Ahmad Bawas Khan: It waR st.arted at our request when we were very much troubled . . . .
1Ir. )[. A. oTbmah: What year?
)[ajOr Bawab Ahmad .awas Khan: It WfLII during t ~ Great War: 1915. 1916, 1917, 1918.
IIr. )[ • .41&1 Ali: It WRS ~t. t in 1895, Rnd it, has gone on n~ then.
Kajor Bawab Ahmad .awlS Khan: Whut 1 was saying I meant that Ruzmak WDS started as a cantonment . . .
lit. K. A. Jbmah: When will it, end?
Malor Bawab AhmId .awlS Khan:. It will be ended when there iii no ne(,p.ssity for it. (Laughter.)
[At this stage, Mr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdur RabUn) vacated the Chair which was then occupIed by :Mr. Deputy Preeldent (Mr. Akhil Chandra. Datta).]
'l'he people of the Frontier, 1 mean the tribes, when Rsked RS to why they commit theRe raidR, dRcoities and kidnapping, said that their country was too barreD and that they had no means of living at all. Now, roads R ' ~ been opened, and t ~ people are allo,,!,ed to ~~ .whatever they
produce into our markets. rhey are Dlore nch and Civilised, they are better off I.lOd no raids aDd kidnapping take place. If Government were to tell them'that they were leaving the country, they would eay "For God's sll'lre. do not do flO: we wHl IIt,lIrve then 01' stert the same oLl game". They
t
LEOlstATIVE AS_BLY. [9TH MAROH 1986. ,. '[Major ~a ta Ahmad Naw:az Khan.] have now various means of livelihood, as contracts, daily labow', trade, service, etc., and now they are good drivers of motor cars, and they are • making t,heir living, In addition to this, the Government, for providing some employment to the tribes, have started a sort of militia and frontier constabulary, and the tribal po<,c,le do earn money there as khGB8adarB, It'is a very useful humane policy 011 the ~ t of Government, If you remove nIl such sources of employment from the tribes, they will revolt and like to kill all the Members of the Legislature who oppose such a useful forward policy which savus them from hunger, starvation and death. 1 osk all the Muslim Members of. this Legislature, is there any remedy, if lihe Government, to stop IIll these raids Imd activities on this side, build 11 wall on our· side, and the Afghanistan Government, on l!}:te other Bide, build a 'wall on their side, and then, between these two'walltl; 'how the tribes are to live? Sir, as for the expense of such 8 forward policy; the Defence Secretary has told us what a large amount was spent when we had a close border policy and had not penetrated the tribal country and now what 11 small amount is spent n~ we become tyrannical and oppre!;sive as is a ~ .. , .
IIr. Deputy Preaident (Mr, Akhil Chanor!! Datta): ~ HOllourahlp Member's time is up .
. Major lfawab Ahmad lfawu Xhan: One or two minutes more, Sir. The other side of this House husnot shown the real state of at'fnirR. They have depicted the picture as if Government are tyrannical and greedy and have done everything ngainst our rights: but it is not so. The Defence Secre-tary has shown that enormous money is saved by this policy. When we were fighting with t,he t·ribes, there WIIS n great loss of life, loss of money andioBs of everything. I cannot understand on what ground Or arguments it is said that this is a forward policy of harmful penetration and what not. You know very well that the Governmetlt are not gaining even a peuny and that it does not help the Englishmen or t,he English country in n~ way. With t,hl'se few remarks, I oppose the mot,ion.
Soma Honourable Memberlt:. The question may.now be put.
Sir Aubrey Metcalfe: Sir. the Mover of the motion took me slightly by surprise in exten,ding the scope of his remarks so very widely. He suggested that India was extending her frontiers as far 8S. the Suez CanaL ....... .
• '.' •• .AlII All: I Bsid invisible front.ierl, not the frontiertl . • "..... . I : .... I .,Ifr: .:' ,"':. '.1 .... ', (I
air Aubrey .,kalfa: They are certainly invisible: so far foS 1 know, they are non-existent. There are no Jess than three foreign countries which lie t ~ India and the Suez Canal, all of which would intensely resent any suggestion that. India extended any kind of frontier, visible, invi.sible or otherwise, which included their territorries. There are one or two o n~R, 1. admit, which require answer, and I will deal pa.rticularly with Gilgit later in my speech: but 80 far even ali, Aden is concerned. I1S the House is aware, Aden has been for &; great many ye&l'8 part of· Bdt.ish. India, Bnd ~ n ~ too that. ~~ only thing to ~ the Indian public took exception wu the poallb!bty of Aden oeaamg to be part
THB GBNBRAL BUDGBT-LIST OJ" DBMANDS. ll'7l o! B t ~ India. There has been no extension at any rate in that direc. tion, or m r.ny other so far as I know, of the visible or invisible frontiers of Iudia. Gilgit, as I say, I shall deal with Inter.
I should now like to come t.o the North·West l"rontier, and I am grateful to my Honourable friend for having given me this opportunity of stating briefly some of Government's views nnd policies with regard to that much-discussed aree;. The last debate which took place, 80 far as I am aware, was in 1928, when, as the Honourable Member pointed out, Sir Denys Bray made a speech on the subject, describing what was going,to be the policy of the Government of India from that date forward. *->w, may I Sft.v, first of nIl, that as Government view the question, there are three ingredients in the frontier question? 1 may possibly ~ repeat.ing whnt is Illrcady familiar to a number of Honourable ~ , but my excuStl must be thll-t it, is possible that Bome Members have not, like my Honourable friend, the Mover, read this last depate and ma.y not be so well lip in the facts, which I am going to explain,;tBs my frienel, MI'. ASflf Ali. If I do say things whicb are already known, I must apologise for them.
The three ingredients, 88 we SCE' them. art', first of all, the aettled 1istricts which, 8S you know, ure fully administered under the ordinary law. They march with what is known 8S tJ'ibal territory which is for the greater part unadministered, tl'lough there ore certain portions whioh have B loose administration. Beyond that tribal t.erritory lies the inde-pendent foreign 'Stat,e of Afghanistan wit,h which we are in treaty, rela-tions of friendship and of neighbourliness. That beiug so, Government have cartoin duties; the" have duties to tbe inhnbitants of tbe aettled. districts which are ro Jlrotect them, 80 far 8S mny be, from incuJ'IIiODtl and raids from Uw ttibnl territory which lics immediately on their borders. M)' Honourable nnd gallant friend from Dern lAm ail Khan has told you something llbout the difficuUies whi('h he nnd other inhabitants of the settled distrirt,s hnve suBered from, and' I CM tell you from my own experience, (\S Deputy Commissioner, of the many' raids which used to take place under the old system: at any rate;' I think it will be l\dmitted freely that, Government have 1\ duty to try and preserve the inhabitants of their set,tIed clistriot6. who Day taxes, from the danllel'8 of raids, kidnapping, and so forth. Secondly, we have a duty to the inhabitants of the tribal territory. The dut,y, as we see it, is to try and provide them with some means of earning a reasonable livelihood. witb-out resorting to raids and im,ursionB, which have for many years been one of their !'Itaple menn& of livdihood. Wt' have been attempting to <Io this in a vfJry generous meKsure, as I !'hull hope to show to the HoUIifl in 1\ few minutes. Our third dutv is towards Afghanistan. We have, fiS I say, treaty relatiolls with" Afghanistan, and there is a mutual obligation,' both on the Government of India and the Government of Afghanistan, to prevent their subjects from a n~ across the Durand I ... ine find also to prevent their subjects from interfering in the internal Bnd domestic affairs of the otber country. I hope it will not be tboucrht that tihis is a duty which we merely invent in order to justify our actions, b8QBUBe I 08n assure the House that it is 0. dut.v which we bave had on more than one occasion in recent years to undertake and to try to fuIftl. It is impossible to fulfil that duty unlaK we have some measure of control over the inhabitants of the tribal .&ree; which extencla up to the Durand Line and ia beyond the administered districts.. It ",as 'onIv in ltm-'l that a very large body 0.£ our tribesmen did. interfere . in ,a domel't,ic "flAir: it waR 1\ revolut,mn of IIOrtA-R l'ehel1lon sh,.n "'1\ cnTI
tII.llLATIVE AlUMllLY [9TH MARCH 198«S.
[&it' Aubrey Metcalfe.] ~a a .n t' the Afghan Govenlwent, and some of our tribes did go
across and join the rebels. We had to take action in order to ensure that they ea.me back and did not cause trouble, embarrassment and danger to a friendly foreign Government. If we have no mcusure of control over the areaa which extend between the Adlllinif:;tered DiRtriets and thll Durand Line, I submit that it is not possible for us to fulfil the real duty which we owe to a neighbouring foreign Government.
I will now attempt briefly' to describe how in Plist years Government have tried to fulfil these three duties. My friend, the Maulanll, who seems to have left the House, lippeared to suggest that we should ~o back to the Indus. Well, I do not know whether he makes the sugges-tttln seriously,. and I om not sure if I have the time to 0001 with it, but if he has made it seriously, I might venture to quote to the House a passage from Sir Denys, Bray'S speech which he made in 1928. It is not long. He 8ays:
"I bad thought that the old cl'y of 'B&<,k to t.he Tndus hIl,j long since beel! .i1enced for over. I was Wl'OJlg. It has heen re--appeal'ing of late in our press; it even found its way into the .. viden<:1' addueed before us on the Military R nt~ Committee. Back to the Indus? Shall we betray Ollr fellow t~ on t·he frontier? Sh-'-I we hand them over to the Lender men'iBM of the illclependent t.rihesmen if! tht' first instance, and tbereaft,er to-who shall My? Back to the Indus? If India ever WeIIt. back to the Indus, not All the five rivers of the Punjab would "et the mark to' the eroaioo of India'. soil that would then ensue. Back to the Indus? Let the BOIU8 aay here and now whet.her India ill ever going hack to the Indus. In the domain of India's foreigD politics, I know of one fixed lind immutable rule only. What. India 'hal, let. India hold. India is large enough t,o cover not a singl" square mile of ground that i. not all'eady her own, But India is not large enough to allow ally inwder of n ~ he independent 'tribesman or foreign power, from south Oi' north or east. or weat,-more of her soil than a plot of ground 7 fpet bv 2i and 4 feet deep." •
Well, Sir, I hope that is sufficient to do away with any idea 01 "Baok to the Indus", The other two theories whieh have held the Aeld in paat :veRrR Bre firstly the close horder policy,-whieh was abandoned about 1921, and, secondly, thll policy which Sir Denys Bray defended in 1928 known I\S the "forward lloli('v" ,-not, quit('. fin accurate name, but thp. l&.bcl hus heen given to it. The closed border policy, Sir, bas a number of B antB~ . snd the only advllnt-age that, can be claimed for it is that it does 'to Bome extent enable us to fulfil our dutv No. I, that is towards our settled districts. Even t.hni; is a verv inadequate way of n~ that duty. beclluse it still leaves us entirely without remedy for the ont.law question which. RS eV6J''y DE'putv Com-missioup.l' on t.he North-West Frontier knows, is one of the chief difficulties he has to contend wit,h, It does not n~ t.o help us to fulfil our second duty towards our trihesmen. or our t,hird dut,y t,(lwards Afghanistan. I will not say more about that.
I will now VC1'V briefly state what, hRS been done smce 1928 in the way of 'P n~ the "forward" or peaceful penetration policv. Sir Denys Brav fully described exoef;lv what it WAS. nnd T mAV merely sav that it consists mainlv in the eRt,ahlishment of roads, t,he emnlovmt'ntof iribes_ men from amoner themselves to crullI'd these r08tJs, nnd !!'ivin!!' oppnrtunities of tmpl'Ovinq t,heir (>Mnomie lind lIo"ial contlitlons. I clAim. Sir. that grieat success has attended these eWorts. I have received not verv long aIFo Notfls. a o~ of ",Meh I sholl1c1 he ~ I!lntl to nlsce On thE: tahle of fibe House if anybody was Interested, from a Political ~nt, in South Wulri.ta.n who is unequalled in his sympath:v both with the" Mahsuda
.I'IIE GBNBRAL BUDGET-US!!' 01' DBMANDS.
and the Waziris, showing .what he has been able to do among the Mahsuds a~ Wazi;is with their full consent und approval. He has succeeded In gettmg them to give him 11 certain portion of their a o ~n In. o~ that he rna,. orgllnize for them irrigation schemes, , o a.t ~no. t n~ n , the supply of BGed grains, forest Rssistance. instruc-tion 1D I>grlC'ultural methods. technieal training in motOr driVing A large number o~ nctiyitics of that sort have been started ~on . Mahsuds. and ~a durmg the last seven or eight years which have been ?f materIal assistanCe and benefit to them in earning an honest, livelihood Instead of having to raid......... .
1Ir. II. Alai All: Whatsbout the Mohmands'?
Sir Aubrey JletcaUe:· As regal'ds the Mohmands and Afridia. we have still, to all intents and purposes, preserved the "closed border polioy". We have not been able to go among them, because they have not desired our assistance.
Now, we come to the latest developments which only date back from last year. It is only an e:lrtension of the policy which has been tried in Waziristan and which. we maintain, has been a successful experiment. The fact is that the Afridis, with all respect to my friends on the other side. have largely themselves to blame for the present position where they tind themselves in an extremely bad economic situation. Th(!y have always been extremely well treated by Government in the matter of allowanoesand in other ways also, in the matter of recruitment. rmd 80 on; but as they have themselves admitted in that agreement or rather pet,ition which my friend from the North-West Front.ier was good enough to read,-I meant to read it myself to the HOllse. but he b8'B saved me the trouble.-in that petition they have admitted that there were occa-sions when they had forfeited their right to the full recruitment which they had had before the war owing to difficulties of desertion and so on. Government's idea was that a-lthough the Afridis had been considerably to blame and were in a bad way, Government were anxious to help them. Negotiations were therefore started with the Afridis very largely at their own instance to uBcertll.in if they would consent to have a rond built, throngh their limits which would bring them more closely in tOllch with civilization and would enable them to trade more freely with Peshawar and generally to enjoy more economic benefits than they had before. With this were also to be given educllt.ionnl and medical facilities and a certain amount of money for tho development of the natural resouroell of their country. Well. for oD;ything that may be said by m.f friends on t,he other I"ide. the fact was that the largest .Tirga of Afridis t,hat hOO ever been collected ~a down to Peshawar about a year ago. They were allowed IImple time for consultation. they were interviewed on more thrm one occasion bv His Exce1Jencv the Govenlor himself. Rnd eventually thev freely signed the petition ~ my friend. Dr. Kha.n Sahib, has read OIit to YOIl, He slIR'l!'ested that the signatories were not representatlve of the Afridis. I !;hl)ulil likE< iust to toe)) you. Sir, that the ~nato included 125 Udredunke Kuki Tirah Wal Kuki Khel, 80 MaJikdin Khel. 84 Q"mher Khel, 79 Aka Khel. 43 Sepah. 68 Kamarai and 146 Zokha KhcJ. WelJ. Sir, if that if! not a I'evresentative Jirga. then r do not know' what ill. Having signed thrrt petit'on. what happened? The road was startm) with-out any particular difficulty. and Ii fE'\\' daY8 after it was started there J>egan to hI' t o ~ from certain elementl'! In t;hE' tribe whi(lh presumably
2174: LBQliLATIVB A8SDlDLY. {9Ta MARoa 1980.
[Sir Aubrey Metcalfe.]
did no\. think that they were going to get enough out of the arrangement. After the representatives of the tribe had given a definite petition to Gov-ernment and everything WIlS agreed, these hostile elements went back on their promise and proceeded, first of all, to burn a school which Govern-
. ment. had built for their benefit. They proceeded then to build pickets in a place where they had no right to build them under their agreement unCi which prevented our khaBBadaTB from performing their duty of pre-venting smuggling und evusion of Khyber tolls. Several other offences have been committed since. One offence which is definitely traced to them took place in UI6 Charsadda sub-division when they attacked u motor car occupied by Il British lady and robbed her attendants of their revolvers. The revolvers have O'Ctually been recovered from an Afridi scction. Another offence which was attributed to them is the attack which was made very recently upon our Honourable .President.
Mr. S. Satyamurtl: That is a fake!
Sir Aubrey .etcalte: That, Sir, my Honourable friend mlly know; T do not know it.
Mr. S. SatyamutU: Have you found out the culprits? Who are the culprits?
Sir Aubrey Metcalte: I do not suy that it has been absolutl-jly proved, but it is thought, almost beyond doubt, that that particulST
5 P.lI. offence, in which the President very narrowly escaped with his life in t.he Peshawar district. was arranged by certain people from amongst the Afridis. Their general behaviour has been very unsatis-factory, with the result that for a short time their allowances were with-held, not on account of the road, but on account of their general be-haviour.
Mr. Deputy Pnaldent (Mr. Akhil Chandra Datta): Will the Honour-able Member tuke some more time? It is now five O·clock. Will he tuke long?
Sir Aubrey .etcalfe: Not long.
Mr. Deputyl'relldMlt (Mr. Akhil Cha.ndra Datta): Will he be able tc finish his speech in two minutes?
Sir Aubrey Metcalfe: I am afraid not.
Mr. Deputy PreBldent (Mr. Akhil Chandra Datta): Then the Chair will adjourn the House till tomorrow, and he can resume his speech then.
The Assembly then adjourned till Eleven of t·h<, Clock on Tuesday, th'l 10th March, 1986.