352 ASSEMBLY.]

legistative ttseembb2,Wedaesday, 171h Aug nat, 1910.

PAOEQueciione : Agricultural Bank and Machainery

ManofactUrere..... 1 - .. &Labour Bureau. reports oin employees... 352Agent General's o fce, reorgan4ia itionI .. 52Electorate boundaries...........352Mines loan to Cailion. G. X. Comany -- 3N2sewerage works. t'remiatle........35$State Fire Ineutnca...........353

Bills. EArly Ulosing Act Amessdueut. la. =.3Roads,lIt................353

Address-ln.Eeply, ninth day, conclusion.....353

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30P.nl.. tmnd read prayers.

QUEPSTION--AGRICULTUR.AL BANKAND MACHINERY MANUFAC-TURERS.

Mr. BATH asked the Minister forAgriculture: What are thle specific ratesof pay and conditions of employment tobe observed by local manufacturers ofagricultural implements, as approved bythe trustees of the Agricultural Bank,' toentitle such manufacturers to be regis-tered tinder the provisions of "The Agri-cultural BanIk Act Amendment Act,

The MINISTER FOR AGRICUL-TURE replied :, Blacksmibhls, Perth andFremnantle, 10s.. to Us. per day; body-makers, Perth and Fremantle. Us. to 12s.per day; wheelwrights, Perth and Fre-mantle. 11s, to 12s. per day; paintersjPerth and Fremantle, 10s. 6id. to Ils.per day; trimmers, Perth and Fremantle,10s. fid. to 12s. per day; strikers, Perthandi F'remnantle. 7i. to 19s. per day; fitters,Perth and Freniantle, INs. to uls. 6d. perday: improvers. Perth and Fremantle, Ss.to Ss. 6Id. per day: labourrers. Perth andFremantle. 7.,. to Ss.- per day; drillers,Perth and Fremantle. 7s. [6d. per day;turners, Perth and Fremanitle. 1us, perday; inoulders,. ~eit h and Premianile. 1s.per day; t'urnaceien, Perth nd Fre-mantle, is. 6d. per da *y; eighat hopurs perday. The IrutL~ees ronside' that the ratesof pay are satisfactory in till eases ex-cept in regoard top unskilled labour, and.they hopwe tip see the rate inicrease(] to amillimomr Iof 8S. Per dlay.

QUESTION-LABOUR BUREAU,REPORTS ON EMPLOYEES.

Mr. BATH'asked the Premier: 1, Isit the practice of the Government LabourBureau to file reports of employers in re-gard to employees which have been sentto thew thirough the agency of the bu-reau.~- Has such been done in regardto any 'partieular instances? 3, If so,will he take steps to see that the opinionsof employees are also registered!i

The PREMIER replied: 1, Yes. 2,Yes. 3, This is already done.

QUESTION-AGENT GENERAL'SOFFICE, REORGANISATION.

Mr. BATH asked the Premier : 1,WVill he place before Parliament a reportof the result of his investigations into theworking of the Agent General's office inLondon and his plan for the reorganisa-tion of same? 2, What are the futureintentions of the Government in regardto-q a.) The appointment of the AgentGeneral, and (b.) The future conduct ofchat office?

The PRE3MIER replied: 1, Yes. 2,It is intended to appoint an Agent Gen-eral when the report referred to has beendealt With.

Q'E S TI ON-ELE CT ORATE BOUND-ARIES.

Mr. HORAN asked the Premier: I,Is it the intention of the Government toappoint a non-political Commission toa1djust the boundaries of the proposednew electorates? 2, If not, is the Pre-mier satisfied that any re-arrangementmnade depa rtmen tally will absolve theGovernment from partisanship therein?

The PREMJIER replied: 1. No. 2,Yes, if the matter is impartially con-rjdered.

QUEST [ON-MINES LOAN TO CAL-LION G.1M. COMPANY.

Mr. MURPHY asked the Minister forMtine.-: 1. Was an application made bytile tCnllion Gtld MiniuL- Company for al:tan of LI0,4100 tiroimi the M1ining Develop-

352

[17 AUGUST, 1910.1 5

ment Vote. If so, when, and for whatpurpose! 2, By what officers, and whenwas it recommended! 3, Was it submit-ted and approved by Cabinet? 4, Wasa request made to amend the original ap-plication by the erection of a mill in lieuof a rock drilling plant! 5. Was theamended application approved by theofficers of the department? 6. Was theamended application submitted and ap-proved by Cabinet?

The MINISTER FOR M1INES re-plied: 1, An application was made on the5th July, 1907, to assist in the purchaseof a boiler, winch, rock drill plant, etc.,to cost £2,783. 2, It was favourably re-ported upon by Inspector Greenard onthe 16th July, 1907, and by the StateMining Engineer on the 25jth July, 1907,who considered a good ease for assist-ance as the company had already ex-pended £3,343, and proposed also to erecta battery. 3, Yes, on the 16th August,1007, and this Rouse was so advised inanswer to a question by M1r. Seaddan onthe 10th September, 1907, and later inreply to a further question by "Mr. Bathon the 6th November. 4. Yes, on the 14thOctober, 1907; andi on the 16th April,1908, in reply to a further request, theMinister replied that the offer of £1,'000would hold good if the company erecteda ten-head mill, gave crushing facilities tothe public, and good security, bitt stbjectto Cabinet approval. 5. Yes, by theStlate Mining Engineer. 6i. Yes, on 16/10/1008.

QUESTION - SEWERAGE WORKS.FRE'MANfLE.

Mr. ANOWIN asked the M1inister forWorks: When is it the intention of theGovernment to proceed with a further in-s;talanent of the sewerage works at Fre-manitle?~

The INNISTER FOR WORKS re-plied: 'T le first reticulation area is nownearly ready. It is expected that it willbe gazetted under the Act about the 27thinist.. givking the statutory mionth's notice.after which the work w;ill be pizi inhand.

(141

QUESTION-STATE FIRE INTSUR-ANCE.

Mr. SCADDAN asked the Premier:In view of the actions of the fire insur-ance companies in raising their ratessince the passing of "The Fire BrigadesAct, 1909." in some cases as much as 50per cent., will the Government considerthe desirability of introducing a measureto provide State fire insurance

The PREMIER replied: I 'am pro-pared to have inquiries made as; to whatincreasqe, if any, has been made since thejpasging- of the 1900 Act, but I am notaware chat tire rates have been raised.

BILLS 12)-FIRST HEADING.1, Early Closing Act. 194)2, Amend-

ment Act (introduced by Mr. Angwin).2. Roadsq (intr-oduced by the Minister

tor Works).

AI)TRESS-IN-lEPLY..Vinfl Do';- Concla,'ion.

hissinri', f'tria tile l]Lelirus d1a I .Mr. McIJOWALL (Coolg-ardie): I

ami perfectly wivel aware i isinw tospienk on the Address-in-Reply that itwill be very difficult indeed for me tofind an'V Lew matter. I think it must beadmitted that all (lie questions have beendebated almost from every possible pointof view; but I think that the only mat-ter which might really be considered newwo~ild be the visit of the Premier to Eng-land. New as that is. however, the diaryhas been entered into so extensively thatI shall refrain fromn alluding to it fur-thier than to say that I believe the Pre-utier honestly and conscientiously did his(luty cowvndK thle State during that tripto the old cotuntry. While it is difficultto find anything new to speak about, Icertainfly think it is incumbent upon meto speak my maind rqpina various subjectsthat are initroduced itito the Governor'sSpeech. The first matter that I desireto refer to is iii connect ion with theTranscontinental railway, and that paica-graph in the Speech wh~ich sava-

Feeling that the delay in beginninigthe construction of the Trans-Anstira-

353

354 [ASSEMBLY.]

lieon railway is fraught not only withgreat injury to the interests of West-ern Australia, but is also a menace totine safety of tie Commonwealth as awhale, my Advisers are of opinionthat rather than incur a further indefi-mite postponement, the project shouldbe undertaken by the two Statesthrough whose territory the line willpass.

M1r. I'nderwood: That is only a joke.Mr. MeD OWALL: The member for

Pilbara says it is only a joke. It may'%be a joke, but T would remnind the lion.member whto is always endeavouring tomake jokes not to take things sseriously.

Mr. Underwood: I should be ashamedof that one.

Mr. 'MrDOWALL: In connection withthis matter I certainly think with themember for Pilbara that it is a iidieu.-tous thing, to place in the Governor's,Speech. This high falutin busiess inconsequence of 'Mr. King O'MAalley mak-

ig an unofficial statement is, to myinnd. altogether undignified. What was

the necessity for it? It seems extraor-dinary that high falutin business of thiskind should he indulged in the momentthe Federal Labour party come into ex-istence, when we know perfectly wvellthat for many years past little or nonotice has been taken of the matter, andduring aill that time Sir John FoLrest oc-cupied a Ministerial position in the Fed-eral Cabinet. We further k-now as far asthis question is concerned that it was theLabour -11inistry that pushed the sur-cythrough, 'We know further that if ithail not been for the neglect of Sir JohnForrest at the inception of Federation,tlht rainscontinental railway would havebeen mnade a condition of Federation.Now, I think to mention the matter inthis way is certainly unnecessary and uil-called for. Further, we must realise thatthe late Prime Mlinister dealing with thematter stated hie would he disappointedif it were not dpalt with (luring the com-ig Parliament. Contrast that state-

ment with the calmi dignified utterancesof the present l rime M1inister. who de-C11a.6d diminctlv that it was part of th-e

policy oF the Labour party, and it wouldbe pushed on as soon as possible. Uinderthe circumstances I take this as a directtilt at the Labour party iii connectionwith this watter. When the subject wasreferred to it was discovered at once,that we had valuahle land even intine far interior of Westerii Aius -Iralin and we are told that the

coutry-%J. OMaleywanted to oh-tail il001thiSStae wuldrepresent

suomethiing like two and a half millionssterlin Now, I mnane] thal everywhereinl thils State magnificent land Canl befound for all purposes except in thedii action of Esiierance Bay, I knowthe Esperatwe railway also is not a newsubject. hut at the same time I thinkevery. goldfield,; member has the rightto declare that he believes that railwayshould be COnstructed. We have heardso much inl connection with this matterfrom the recent deputation to the Pre-mier , so mnany statistics have been fur-nished, that it is not my intention to la-bour the question. But we, on the gold-fields, realise there is land in that direc-tion, mid that from many points of viewthis railway should be constructed. Iwant to say I think the agriculturalpolicy of the Government is runningmad. I do not wish to be misunderstood;I believe as firmly in the development ofthe agricultural resources as anyone canpossibly do, but at the same timne 1 thinkthey should not be developed to the neg-lect of every other industry in the StateC.That seems to be the position at the pre-sent time. It might appear unnecessaryto speak upon this question and uponigroidlields matters generally to any greatextent; because I think nearly all- resi-dents of the State realise the vast im-portance of the goldflelds. But when wehave men of the calibre of Sir WalterJames and his late opponent, Mir. Nath-aniel Harper, speaking disparaginglyof the goldfields it is, I think, for us toshow in a mark-ed manner the importanceof those goldfields to the State, At Bev-erley Sir 'Walter James said there werethree great industries. mining, farming.and timber.

Mr. Underwood: That was a joke.

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r 17 AUGUST, 1910.] 5

Mr. M1eDOWAL : Everything is ajoke according to the member for Pil-bara, except when he himself is speakting.

Mr. Butcher: Then he is the joke him-self.

Mr. McDIOWAII : Then, a, an lion.member has interjected, he is the jokehimself. Of course I know that heintends then to he a joke. still,although in consequence of his extensiveinformation the member for Pilbara mayrealise that these utteran~es at Beverleywere merely by way of joke, there arethousands of people int the State whowould not see the joke of it, and it isin consequitence of this that I am mention-ing the matter, It was declared by SirWalter James that the life of the timberindustry was, unhappily, short; andwining, he regretted to say, was showingsigns of shrinking. The agricultural in-dustry, however, was growing- and ex-panding. Agriculture lay at the root ofthe State's prosperity, and mineral de-velopment -was no good unless it helpedto settle the lands of the State. Now, ifthat is not agriculture run mad, I shouldlike to know what it is. The goldfieldsarc no good except they tend towards thesettlement of the agricultural lands ofthe State. That, of course, is a joke, Iagree with the member for Pilbara; hut itis a joke Calculated to do considerableinjury, and one that we should not allowto pass. M~r. Harper, in the course ofhis campaign, also made remarks not corn-plimentary to the goldfields-remarksthat certainly are not borne out by facts.

Mr. Heitmann: And the goldfields havemade remarks not com'plimentarv to Mr.Harper.

3Mr. MeDOWALL: The goldfields hareserved to make him comfortable, and hieshould be the last to speak disparaginglyof them, However, I am not interestedin the petty affairs of an individual; it isonly because these matters have beenmentioned in this way that I desire toraise my voice in protest, and at the sametime to protest against the neglect of anindustry that has made this State. Under-the circumstances can we wonder thatmining members object to this sort ofthing? In the Governors Speech it isset out that the muining industry continues-

to be a g-reat factor in the lpiuspei'ityof the ecoLniiy. We aire told that miustencouiraging reports have lately been re-ceived from various portions of the auri-ferous areas etcetera. " Continued die-v'elopments 1 rougph thle existenice oft pay-able gold at great deptli"-and so on itgo(Ies. But I Cannot hielp obs'erving thatnotwithstading this there is no appaicutdesire on the part of the Government totalk about the encourageient (if thie greatmininmg industry. 'Now, contrast this withthe parag-raph ei)Icelning agriculturalrailways. "Reocognising that much of thefuture prosperity of the State depends onthe rapid constrnpel( Lof railways" et-cetera, "ani advisory board has been ap-pointed."' Also, " n comprehensivescheme of agricultural railway extensionwill therefore be submuitted." There is tohe all this encouragement for agriculture.lUnderstand that I am not objecting toany snubh encouragement; T amn simply en-deavouiring to point out that this andother industries are being pushed f or-ward to the detriment of the goldfields.Now, iii order that we might look into thequestion of the sources of the wealth ofthe State let us g-lance at tile abstract ofaccounts for the year jitst enided. Thetotal ievenue ainonuited to £3,057,670.Now, stripping this of all veriage-rmean, reducing it practically to a profitand loss statement, taking away from thetrading concerns the eon tras, and bring-ing the whole down to net revenue --wehave something like £2,187,000. We have£2,.226,036 with a debit balance, so far asthe law costs are concerned, of £38,837,placiuig to the credit of this netrevenue account £2,187,199. That moneyhas been applied ats follows:-Loan Acts,£1,003,204; special Acts, £,55,545;- His Ex-cellency the Governor, etcetera, £E14,769;the Treasurer, £17.5,901; the Minister forAg-riculture, £58,589; the Colonial Secre-tary, £3945,572. Of course, you under-stand I am taking the contras off aindbringing it all down to a net revenue ac-count. Then there was electoral andCrown law, £15,213; education, £183,699.and public works £124,81.9, leaving- abalance to credit of £209,93.8, whiech, ofcourse, reduced our deficit. Now T haveonly dealt with that because* I wish, if I

35.3

356 [ASSEMBLY.]

can, to illustrate the sources of revenueof the State. From taxation wve have only£:322,056; the railways produced £537,390-that is, taking oil the £1,500 for theCommissioner's salary which is paid un-der a special Act. The Commonwealthreturn gave us £ 703,723. I could giveyou all the details, but I desire merely topoint out that nearly the whole of therevenue is from indirect taxation to whichthe whole of the country contributes.And, the wealthi heing so largely pro-duced by the goldields, nly object is toshow that they are desen ing of muchgreater consideration than they appear tobe getting. The profit of the railwaysthis year' amounted to £,537,390. Nowthat is largely made up of traffi on theEastern Goldfields line; and in a gold-fields' publication issued some time ago,when we were agitating for the Esperancerailway-the Minister for Mines smiles,but I feel convinced lie wvill be unable todisprove this-it was stated that sincethe construction of the line the EasternGoldfields have returned, over and aboveinterest and working expenses, the£:1,300,000 which the line cost. That beingso it necessarily follows that the revenuewhich has been produced in this connec-tion is revenue brought into the coffers ofthe State-to pay the general debts andexpenses of the State-very largely bythe people of the g-Oldflelds. Under thesecircumstances my object is to try to bringhome as well as I can the necessity tofoster an industry that has heen of somuch importance to the State. At thisstage let me repeat that, so fat' from it,being my desire to injure any other in-dustry, I will be just as pleased as anyother member to do what I can to help

suc oterindsty forward. Again, weare told that our yields are diminishingconsiderably. Yet the miningl report saysthat 1.070 more men are employ' ed thisyear than last year. We have no fewerthan 18.3% men engaged in the miningindustry in this State; that is more thanthe white men employed in the farming.pastoral. orchard, and all other indusrriesof tbat kind, as I shall presently show. Itis the indnstry that brings thie revenue-producing power to the State, and hasenabled the State to reach the proud pomi-

lion that is hers to-day. ] know t hatduring this debate the 'Minister for Minieshas given you figures which are move Lipto date titan 1 can give, because I mustof necessity confine myself to the lastmining report. From that we find thatthe dividends paid last year amounted to0,359.11A), while the total dividends paidamount to V20,323,010. Looking fito theexports of the State we find gold is ofparamount importance. Laqt year the ex-ports wceegld £3),720,266 (the totalproduction was £6,776,274); wool,£:1,013,180; timber, £R.67,419; wheat.£129,0'25. and pearls £274,9630. So faras wheat is concerned I think for the firstfive months of this year it has reachedabout 0130,000, and we must admit thatthe production and export of wheat haverapidly advanced, but it is the gold in-dustry that produces the wealth of theState. Now, to come to my own district,I do not wish to be parochial, hut ac-cording to the mines report the districtshows a decrease of 5,894 ounces, whichis almost entirely to be attributed to theclosing down of the Westralia Extensionmine at Bonnievale. We are of opinionat Coolgardie that the mine should neverhave been closed down. It was workedfor years on tribute, and then WardenFinnerty recommended exemption. Theywere entitled to exemption, but the wardenplacedi a clause in that they should keepthe ruine fit for working, that is keep thewater out of it, hut that was not done,and the result is shown in the report-themine wqA~ closed dowvn for over a year. Itis now bein worked again, and by tribu-ters, but there is no doubt that had thatmine been working at the proper time weshould tnt have that decrease in produc-tion. Even' endeavour was made to pre-vent the granting of the exemptionwithout the conditions necessary. Thtold a typewritten document addressedto the 'Minister for MIines showingthe whole of the eircumnstances inconinection with the case, and show-inz the gold won by the tributers,and vrioius other matters of the kind.H~ovever, no good 'will come of delvingin'to thiat matter too deeply. I simplywish to Point out that we do not considerwe are receiving the sympathetic treart-

[117 AUoUST,. 1910.] 5

went that should be extended towards anindustry of so much importance. Theother night the Minister for Mines saidthat capital seemed to have an antipathyto coming to this State, and he inferred.of course, that it was in consequence, Ishould imagine, of perhaps labour condi-[iotis or fixity of tenure or something ofthe kind-lie did not use the words tothat effect, but still that is the positionto be assumed. As far as I can see thecapitalist is protected in every possibleway and receives every consideration;therefore, I do not think capital fails tocome to this country in consequence ofthat. I maintain the industry should befostered in every possible way. TheMinister 'will reply that 'we have spentsomething like £275,319 in -State batter-ies. That is true; but it is also true that,barring depreciation, the loss has notbeen very considerable upon these batter-teaq, and in any case the treatment ofthese batteries has produced £C3,127,794worth of gold. According to the winesreport the 'working expenditure has ex-ceeded receipts by £19,015 5s. 9d., butthe Minister the other evening gave thetotal loss on working as £32,000.

The Minister for Mines: I gave theTreasury figures. I explained there 'wasa difference owing to stocks not beingtaken into account.

Wir. McT)OWALL: It seemted extra-ordinary there should be a difference of£12,985 in six months, which is really anincrease of ahout 65 per cent. However,that is only by the way. I only mentionedit to show the discrepancy between thereport and the Minister's figures. Now,[here is the question mentioned by themiembher for Kalgoorlie the other even-ing, that of water supply. I am not go-hig to enter into any lengthy discussiontof that question, I think it was well ex-pressed by the hon- member, but I hear-tily concur with the hon. member that themines are not treated as well as theyought to be in connection with watersupply. Their owners feet it is hard, in-deed, to hare these harsh conditions im-posed upon them, and to be compelled touse the scheme water only or pay a verymiuch increased figure for it. I wish now

to refer to the ease of the Redemptionminie in my own district. It is an unfor-tunate matter. The previous proprietorwas forced to give up and the Mines De-partment took hold of the lease. Somelittle time ago I submitted to the Minis-ter a proposal to let the men, to whomsome £230 of back wages was due, workit on a tribute system, or anything of thekind, for six months in order that theymight have some chance of getting theirmoney out of it, but the Minister wouldnot agree to that, and he made a counter-proposal which the men found it imipos-sible to comply with. I have ever Somuch correspondence in c3onnection withthe matter, but I have no desire to wearymembers by reading the w hole of it. Iwill simply read a letter from Mr. An-draws, [lie solicitor acting for the men,who, after vrio us correspondence andreports had passed between us, wrote lome as follows: -

The men are anxious to bear furtherfrom you what definite arrangementMr. Gregory will come to, I see iloreason why the proposal we madeshould not be turned into the form ofa tribute if Mr. Gregory prefers it so,provided there is no royalty chargeduntil the mien's first charge for wagres issatisfied. All that the men ask for ispermission to use the plant to see ifthey can work their wages out of themine. Surely Mr. Gregory ought tofind some way of doing this. Let hintrefer to his mining inspector if he isafr-aid of the practical difficulties.

We could not pos;sibly get the men to-gether a second time. They were preparedto go in and work for the wages due tothem, but nothing could be done. Teni-ders were called for the mine . with theresult that it was practically pot off for-n mionth, and nlow the men are scatteredeverywhere, and they feel they hare aconsiderable grievauce in connection with[lie ma tter. Having dealt with thesequestions I wish, if I may digress, to gointo figures in connection with other industries in the State, farming and agri-cultural particularly. Those engaged infarm work are-males 10,201, females2.242, total 12,443; those engaged in

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aiyiiig are-iale, 540, females 413,toital 953; 1hoise eiiz ageil in orchards andmarket gardeas are-mnales 2,W23, females357. total 2.1INO; those engaged inl the*pastoral industr'r are-males 4,615. fe-* moles'1.675, total 6.290, This makes agrand total of 22,6616, of which 4.07 ar-efemales. Those of the white races erm-p jloyed are--males 15,193, females 3,2(R9.I wish at this stage to pooint out that thewhite males employed in all these indns-

* ries of the State are less than the whitemiales employed in the mining industry,being, 15,193 as against 18,336. TheAsiatics employed in our industries are-males 790, females 7, total 797. Themborigines employed are-males 1,996,females 1,412, total 3,408. My object inmentioning these figures is to again showthe absolute importance of the wliningindustry, and that it should receive theuitmost consideration from the Adminis-tration. I am well aware that I shall heanswered that it does receive every con-sideration and that it will receive everyfconsideration, hut the little points I havementioned will go to show thatthere are little pin pricks that arefelt inl every mining district. Iventure to assert that every miningmnember in this Chamber knows of similareases to those I bare mentioned. I havenot attempted to enlarge on them, becauseI think it unnecessary to do so, hut I amconvinced that the majority of miningmembers find a want of sympathy and awant of desire to push ahead the miningindustry that makes the State. N.%ow,just a word or two in connection with im-migration. The policy of the Opposi-tion in that regard is well known. Thereis no objection to immigrants, providedthere are suitable openings5, especially inthe country- That being so. we maintainthere should be an opportunity for thosepersons to get on the land and to obtaintheir livelihood inl that direction. It issaid that such is not the case at present,I have no instances of that kind at mayrommand. I am not brought so much inconnection with agriculture, but inl von-nection with immigration I think that ifmoney were expended in pushing themining industry-as all roads lead toRome, everythingo coxnes back to mining

-the population of this countrywould vastly increase. 'We have only totake the lesson of the past. In 1894 our

ppulation was 82,014. Then ('oolgardiewas just becoming known. In threeyears the population increased to 161,694.it nearly doubled, and that splendidpopulation that came to the State thenis now peoplinig the lands ot the State.If, by the fostering of the minin indus-try, another Kalgoorlie could be dis-covered-atid there is ample room in thiscountry for a dozen more Kalgoorlies-then the population would flock to theState, and every industry woul]d advancein consequence. It is for these reasonsI maintain that every possible assistance

shudbe given to our great mining in-dustry. A business man with severalbranches of his business would be lookedupon as very foolish if be neglected theone that was the best paying in order tofoster others that might eventually be-come of greater importance. One ques-tion I desire to say a word or two aboutis that of education. I am pleased toknow that the Government are desirousof extending educational facilities in theState. They talk about the establishmentof a university, and this, if establishedon proper lines, must commend itself toall of us. They also talk about havingcontinuation classes for young peoplewhose period of education in the primaryschools has terminated. We want manymore primary schools, and there is nodoubt, as the Attorney General said theother night, that the edjpeation of thepeople will do both sides of the House animmense amount of good. I think hewas especially referring on that occasionto this s-ide of the House. It is a goodmove. but at the same time before he-corning (too) ambitious, so far as educationis concerned, we should see that none ofthe teacben, in the departmient are beingsweated. It is a well known fact thatleachers are very poorly paid, and thatthere is a certafii section actually beingsweated. I allude to a number ofielaxssiel Teaee whoi do eqlually as

zrom 11n(l impoiirtant Wviork as. {lasied1teacheis. and are recognised as, beingaimng the very best in the State, and yetthey receive a miserable pittanee 4f at

:,.-I S

f 17 AUGUST. 1910.]35

salary amounting to something like £90a year on the fields, exelusiv'e of thegoldfields' allowance. Mr. Chubh. one ofthe inspectors. in dealing with this ques-tioni says-

Somlething, should lie done Vor someof the unclassified teachers. We haveai systemn of classification which de-1,ends in the first instance upon passingexaluinations in scholarship. We have-nne assistants who cannot pass suchie'4ts buit who do really first-rate work.Cases are not unknown of where anunclassified teacher may be in one roomaird a classified in the next room withalmost double the salary, and yet theunclassified is much the better teacher.It is a pity that in eases where uncelassi-fled teachers do work of exceptionalmerit the regulations do not permit ofhigher salaries being paid as some rec-ognition of such superior work. If wecould institute a special certifcate, saya "D" certificate, for teachers, ten-able onlyL while they show excellentwork, and allowing them somethingextra in salary while they retained thecertificate, we should only be doing afair thing. For such teachers the sal-aries received are very small.

Some attention should be paid to thatrrimmendstion, for it is not right that

this State should employ people to teachouir children at a starvation wagec. a wageonl which it is absolutely impossible forthemn to keep themselves decently' Ilope the Minister will take that questioninto consideration. So far as the othereducational matters are concerned, I amextremely pleased, as I hare said, to seethat the Government are moving; but atthe same time I trust that if there is aquestion between primary education anda university, the former will score onevery possible occasion. A question agi-tating the minds of the people of theState at the present time is that of redis-lribntion of seats. We are told by theAttorney General that it is intended toremove certain anomalies in connectionwith various electorates. It must be ad-mitted that there are some anomalie. btT am convinced that at the present timethe -,,ldflelds hare not ton much repre-

sentation, and any attempt to lessen thatrepresentation will meet with the mostserious and strenuous opposition. Theremay be some justification for alteringcertain boundaries, and as a matter ofactual fact it must be realised that myelectorate is one in which the boundariesshould he altered.

Mr. lleitmann: They are going to wipeit out altogether.

Mri. _McDOWALL: I do not thbink thereis much chance of doing that. Coolgardiewill always be--

Mr. Seaddan: Coolgardie.Air. MeDOWALL:- Yes, Coolgardie.

And it will always he entitled to repre-sentation of some ind or other.

Mr. Daglish: It will always make itsviews heard.

Mr. MeD OWALL: Always. This mightbe a jolting mateer so far as some meem-hers are concerned, but it is not so in mycase. It must be admittvd that Bonuievaleand Burbanks, and even the 25-Mfile,should always have been in the Coolgardieconstituency. A rectification of anomalies.would mean that the boundaries of theCoolgardie electorate would be altered insonmc such direction. There is a tabledealing with the various electorates, andthis shows, that in Coolgoardie we have1.S9 people on the roll at the presenttime. There is a difference between Cool-gardie people and those onl the roll else-where, for they are worth far more thanthe ordinary person. as they take thetrouble to vote at an election. At the lastelection, for instance, no less than 90 percent. of tile People on] thle r-oll voted.

Mr. Underwvood: An intelligent voaetoo.

Mr. MeD OWALL: Thank yon: so itwas;. One mnust not always go entirely 'vby,the extent of an electorate, for the intelli-gence of the electors and the way theytnrn up to rote Must also be taken intconsideration. If this is d]one it will he,realised that even now we have a fairvoting population in Cookzardic. Onl rueNortham roll there are 4,770 voters, andon the Yilgarn roll 2,149. I see no objec-tion whatever-I am only uttering myown sentiments-to hring the Tilg arnseat into a portion of the 'Northam scat,and extending Coolznrdic to take in Bu-

359

[ASSEMBLY.)

banks and Bonnievale, and a portion ofYilgarn. If the Government mean to rec-tify anomjalies by such a means as that,then a Redisttibution of Seats Bill isnecessary, but if they do not mean that,if they are go0ing to lessen our goldfieldsrepresentation, and add it to the farmingand coastal districts, it will be distinctlyunfair. The mass of figures I have pre-sente showing the number of mien em-ployed in the various pursuits of theState, and showing the valuable gold pro-duction of Western Australia, should besufficient to prove that the -oldfieldsshould retain their present representa-tion. After all is said, however, thereare really no tremendous anomalies. Nor-.tham and North Perth are, I think, themost glaring.

Mr. Daglish: What about SubiacolMr. 'MeDOWALiL: That is somewhat

large. but I think the member for the dis-trict rather appreciates it. These anoma-lies are nothing lilie those that existed inthe early days. There was no great out-cry for redistribution then. In 1901 theMount Burgess electorate, now really Vil-gain, had 2,450 electors on the roll; oathe other hand East Kimberley had 107,West Kimberley 263, Pilbara 428, Baver-ley 551, Gascoyne 308, Greenough 397,anid Irwin 231; total 2293. Those peoplewere entitled to seven representatives asag-ainst one for Mfount Burgess. Theseconditions were disgraceful, and the re-suilt of the existence of such anomalieswas a misgovernment of the State for aconsiderable time. I admit the positionwas altered to a certain extent, but any-one can appreciate how glaring was theunfairness then. So glaring a state ofaffairs does not exist now, hence I cannotunderstand the anxiety of the Ministryto do away with some goldfields seats.

Mr. O ILoghlen: They have not yet saidthey will.

Mr. MecDOIWALLa: But there is a veryshrewd suspicion that they intend to doso. It has been whispered that such athing is likely to occur. I am givingr myopinions ton thlis question of iedistri~vutioiiwithout knowing what the Governmentproposals are-, but at all events the Glov-ernment will have n10 doubt as to my Sen-timents on the qunestion. This matter re-

quires very grave consideration, and isnot one to be trifled with. On givingconsideration to it, it is evident thatthere is really no necessity for aredisribution. If the populationstatistics are examined, it ilil be under-stood readily that there is no warrant fora reduction. An alteration of boundariesmight ho warranted, but a reduction ofdistricts never. Here are some figurespublished in the Kalgoorlie Miner theother day as to the number of mnen en-gaged in mining on the goldfields. In190S the number engaged was 17,266, andfor 1909 18,336, showing an increase of2,070. On the Eastern Goldfields gener-ally the increases were as follow:-EastCoolgardie, 363; Phillips River. 30; Dun-dna, 62; Yilgarn, 111; Broad Arrow, 48,and Mount Margret, 8. The decreaseswere : -North-East Coolgardie, 30; Cool-gardie, 74, and North Coolgardie, 12.Does a decrease of 30 people in the North-East Coolgardie district warrant anychopping and changing, and humbuggingabout with the electorates? Coolgardieonly showed a decrease of 74; but, nowthat Burbanks is going ahead, and if theMnister gets the Redemption and othermnines at Bonnievale going, that numbercan he made up in a week. Everyonewho has been in Coolgardie once, andobtains an opportunity to return there,rushes back like lightning. That is all Idesire to say on the questi on of redistribu-tion. I sgincerely hope the Nflinisfry willvery seriously consider the question.

Mr. Troy: Do not apologise for thefields; let the Ministry apologise for theirpoor representation-the Premier's seat.and several others.

Mr. MePDOWALL: As the hon. memberpoints out, there is realty no occasion fnruts to apologise for the fields. As I havesaid there are now 1,689 voters on theroll in my constituency. It vou run downthe list you will find that Gascoynehas only 1,409, Greenough only 1.440.Geraldton only 1,674, all less than Coid-gardie. I did not intend to trespass; uplonthe time iif the House so long, but nowthat I have started I shall give a fewmore of these figures. If we are to lieinterfered with on the goldfields, the

[17 AUGUST, 1910.]1 ~

coastal seats should also be interferedwith. Even at JKanowna, about whichthere is so much talk, there are 1,880 ele-tors, while Kimberley has only 1,413,Murray has only 1,142, Roebourue hasonly 521, Sussex 1,09, Wellington 1.760,and so on until we come to Bunburywhich has only 1,647, something like 40less than Coolgardie has. The memberfor Mt. Magnet asks whly we shouldapologise for our small constituencies.

Mr. Daglish: That shows the need forredistribution.

Air. MeDOWALL: It shows the needfor a readjustment of boundaries, but itdoes not show the necessity for cuttingout representation affecting the variousindustries.

Mr. Foulkes: Give us the figures in themetropolitan area.

M1r. McDO WALL : East Perth has3.)852, North Perth ha 8,425, West Perth4.550, and so on around about Perth.

Mr. .Scaddan: What are the Perthfi,_xures?

Mr. MeDOWALL: Only '2,729. Han-naije has 5,210 and Kalgoorlie has 3 1520.As I hanve stated it was niot my intentionto go extensively into this question butmerely to express my opinion that a re-distribution should be in the direction ofthe re-adjustment of boundaries and nota reduction of seats affecting the variousindustries in the State. It must be ad-mitted that although agriculture is ad-rancingz it has had more representation iiithe past than it has been entitled to. Itis not a serious matter to adjust theboundaries of the agricultural districts.and giving- them some representation. Ifwe were to do that we would have fairrepresentation; that is what T maintainshould be done, and the same course couldhe followed on the goldfields. T have noobjection to the boundaries of Coolgardiebeing altered: as a matter of fact Imaintain they should be altered. Asthe member for Boulder has pointedout. Coolgardie at the present times- an ideal constituency, inasmuch

as it only goes three miles fromthe post office, and I can go to the Tivolitheatre and the town hall and address thewhole of my constituents from the plat-

forms. It is very satisfactory from thatpoint of view. Joking aside, I think itmust be admitted that there are certaindistricts around Coolgardic which shouldbe included in it. For instance, it is ridi-culous that Tilgarn should come allaround Coolgardie; which is the caeat the present time. Yilgarn ab-solutely encloses Coolgardie. That isall I desire to say in connection with thisquestion of the redistribution of seat,though I believe there will he a ward ortwo said before the matter is disposed of.And now I desire to add that that is allI have ally wish to speak about on thepresent occasion. I have other notes, butT think I have said sufficient to keepthings goig for at least a little while,which is all that was necessary. I trustthat the mining industry, which I haveendeavoured to show is, after all is saidand done, the mainstay of the country,will receive more encouragement in thefuture than has been the ease recently.Of course, there was a time when miningreceived a grecat deal of attention, butsince agriculture has made rapid advancesthere seems, to he a desire to overlook anyother induistry. That desire should notexist. I trust sincerely that the gold-fields will receive that just measure oftreatment to which I think they are fairlyand 'properly entitled.

Mr. HAYWARD (Wellington) : Myremarks will be very brief, and I intendto confine themn to the one impoirtantmatter. that of immigration. Havingspent the best years of my life on farmsin England, I think I may claim to be inthe position to know something about therelations( between farmers and their em-ployees. Before going into the generalquestion,' however, I would like to make afew remarks in reply to wrhat the mem-ber for Brown HIl stated regarding lbeemployment of immigrants in this Stair.He said that at the present time immi-grants were being sent out here as farmlabourers, and that they were finding pmii-tions in the country and -were content towork for lower wages than our own peoplein the State who 'were following simni-lar occupations. I may say that in Eng-land at the present time there is a divis-

M L

.62[ASSEMBLY.]

ion of labour in connection with farm-ing. For instance, one man will carryout the work of ploughman on a farmand he wvill do nothing else. Anotherwill be engaged on manual labour, doingdraining, ditching, filling and spreadingmanure, harvesting am~d preparing cornfor market. All this has to be done in aneat and workmanlike manner, and notin the rough and ready style of this State,where appearances are a secondary con-sideration. The same thing applies tomen who look after stock. They do noth-ing else, and never have anything to dowith manual labour on the land itself.One cannot expect people from England,and who have been occupied in this kindof farming occupation, to tome out hereand go out in to our back country, andto receive the same wages as qualifiedlocal men, or men who have bad long ex-perience. The new arrivals are perfectlyat sea in our country. You would find onmany farmws in England that the men em-ployed there have never done any workwith an axe. Send this class of maninto our back country and youi will seethat he will "at know what to do. Imerely make these remarks just to showthat if the member for Brown Hill badunderstood the question -he would not havespoken as he did. No doubt, if we couldget men from the other States they wouldbe better for our purposes, but I do notbelieve in taking away people from theother States; I think we should go be-yond the seas for our immigrants. Ourobject would be to increase the popula-tion of Australia generally, and not goon rohbing Peter to pay Paul, as it maybe said we are trying to do. With re-gard to labour at the present time thereis really no surplus. The numbers whohave emigrated and who have gone intothe cities hare reduced the available labourwhich, at its best, was barely sufficient toenable the farmers to carry on operations.With the great areas of laud which arcbeing thrown open for selection, andwhich are being taken up, there mustfollow an even greater demand for men.The immigrants who make up their mindsto settle here must expect to work longerhours. I have studied the question formany years, having spent 20 years, of the

first part of my life on two large farmsin an Eastern county of England, placesthat I have since revisited. I have spentthe greater part of my life mixing withfarmers and their men, and am still cmr-responding with them, anid 1 think I canclaim to understand their position. InEngland a farmer receives 14s. -or 15s.a 'week, out of which he has to pay foreverything, including his house rent.Compare that with the wages they gethere.

Mfr. Bolton: That is not a fair coin-parison surely?

Mr. HAYWARD: But we must conm-pare the conditions existing- in the twocountries. I have relations ini Englandengaged in farming, and they keep) inewell posted.

Mr. Taylor: Is it a general custom inEngland for an employer to pay wages,and for the employee to find everythingfor himself'?

M%1r HAYWARD: Yes:- that is theposition. The employee has to findeverything for himself. Owing to thestrenuous efforts on the part of the Pre-mier during his visit to England, we arenow getting a fair number of immigrants,but we can never hope to compete withCanada and other countries which arespending much more money in advertis-ing that we are doing. Our only course,therefore, is to turn our attenition to othercountries

Mr. Heitinana: You will have to treatthem better than the Government treatedthe Stirling Estate settlers.

M1r. HAYWARD: I do not know any-thing about that. I hare had experienceamong different nationalities, and I thinkthat if we could only get some Germansthey would make the very best settlers.I know a good many of them who arehere, and who are, wvithout exception. asuseful settlers as anyone would wish tohave. T do not know, however, whet herthe Emperor of Germany would allowthin to come out here. 'We have plentyof them here and perhaps we could getsionic more. Then again, in respect tothe dairying industry we could with profitturn to Denmark, and Swedein and 'Nor-

w'v.Denmark produces the best hutterinteWorld, while for the invention of

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[17 AUGUtST, 1910.]

the cream separator we are indebted toSweden and Norway. I certainly thinksome effort should be made to get immni-grants from these coutntries. Touchingupon another aspect of the question, Ithink the introduction of, for instancee,the hardy Norsemnan would exercise abeneficial influence over dile pthysique andstamnina of the next generation. Anotherave of immigrants who, not wit'listao ding

certain prejudices, will be found to bedesirable is that of the Italian. Ini myowni district there is ai number of Italians,very good settlers. They get a little landof their own and go in for wine-miaking,and drink it themselves in moderation.They euttivate fruit generally, and I miust,ay for these men that never have Iknown one of them to appear in thepolice court. From different lparts ofTtaly you get different classes of men.However, as I have said, we have a ium-her of them iii myv district and I wouldbe glad to see more of them. I think weshould attempt tot bring out here some ofthe younlg English farmiers who, althoughipossessed of a little capital, have 110 pportunity of carrying on farming opera-tions for themselves in the old countr.In England the number of farms islimited, and if a manl has four or fivesons it is impossible for themn to obtainforms of their own.

Mr. Taylor: Owing to the dleer parks.Mr-. 'HAYWARD: Parks reserved for

gamne in England usually consist of poor,sandy land of very- little use for cultiva-tion. Only one son can succeed thefarmer ; the others must come out rfEngland if they n-ant to follow the oldoccupation. It seems to me we have abetter prospect of getting some of theseyVouing fellows here than we have of sectur-ing farm labourers.

Mr. Gill: What would yon do4 withthem-would you give them land"

Mr. HAYWARD: Yes, they can getIa1 nit

Mr. Gill: They will require to knowmore than othei's know.

Mr. Bolton: You would bare the Goy-erment buy up a few more estates.

2Mr. HAYWARD: There is plenty ofland available: it is only a question of

time. Another matter touched upon isthe proposed ulanuifactuflu.g of macbin-er -v by the State. I would be glad indeedto see the price of hairvesters redued~,hut I doubt very much whether the Gov-ernment could in this respect S~iccessfully{-oiipete with private enterprise. Thenwe would have to contend with our neigh-bous Onl the other Side of Austratia'r'['here is the question of royalty on pat-enF1ts.

M1r. Ang-win : You could build a goodmacehine without interfering- with anypatents.

Mr-. HAYWARD: If that be so ,itmnild alter the case. but ulost of theparits of a harvester aie patented andcoverled by royalties; in fact everythingin connection with harvesters is coveredby royalty. Again, we have not in thisState timber fit for ruse in the manufac-ture of harVeSter'S.

Mi-. Angwvin: Is not our jarrab asgood as Tasmanian black-wood for thepurpose?

Mr-. HAYWARD: Our jarrah is veryheavy. I myself have sent samples ofall our timbers to manufacturers. hut alldecliusri to uise them, Simply onl -it-count oif the weight. Portable mna-chine ry. it nust he remembered, isof neess ityi made of the lightestwood possible. I aii quite satisfied thatWe thave no timber in the State fit for themanufactuire of farming macehinery. Ithink the proposition of the 'Minister forWorks was about as good as any I haveheard. He proposed that we should havesmiatl manufactories in different pats ofthe State where the manufacturers wouldhe ceitain to apply their inventive geniusto the bringing out of new machinesand the modifying of old ones. The larg-est mianufacturers have alt started inl avery small way hy taking out patents- for01t- inmlemenlt ou- macline of which theyhave made a specialty. Messrs. Ransoma& Sims, formerlyv Me-,srs. Rauisonue &Sons, started in a very small way. Inthe early, part of last century Rohert Ran-some took out a patent for a seif-sha rpen-iwir. chilled ploughshiare. wthich has sinceheen adopted ailt over the world, and hansproved the greateqt boon ever conferred

[ASSEMBLY.]

on farmers, saying them many thousandsof pounds. Later on, the firm began themanufacture of ploughs with woodenbeams and bandies. They now manufac-ture about a hundred varieties, all iron.This firm commenced iii a small way inonte Of the back streets of Ipswich; to-day their works cover nearly thirty acresof land and they employ upwards of2.500 hands. Then there is the firm ofMessrs. Turner, who began by patentinga smooth roller mill for crushing liniseed,which was for a time used for feediw'2cattle. 'Nowv that firm, employing- alacnumber of men, do) a vast business inroller flour mills. I could namne severalother firms, which from small beginningshave grown into immense commercial pro-positions. Now if themse small factorieswere to be established in our State andwere giren slight assistance in the begin-ning, it would meet thle case. and prolb-ably certain of tbem would develop intolarge concerns. There is only one otherlittle matter to which I1 would refer,namely, the proposal to establish Statefloor mnills. That, perhaps, is the lastthing the Governnmnt should touch. Ihave had considerable experience in flourmilling myself, and I can say that it hasbecome; almost a science. It is most diffi-cuilt to procure a ioroug-hly competentmanager. for not only must he under-sland the manuifacture of flour bult hemust also have to his credit a considerableexperience in the buying of wheat.

Mr. O'Loghlen: is the business moredifficult than that of gold extraction?

MAr. HAYWARD: No, I think not.Perhaps they are about on a par. Themember for (ieraldton mentioned that inhis district at thle present time there arethree flour mills working, while otherswill suou be established by private enter-;'rise. What is there to prevent the far-nmers, all over the State going in for co-operation in their respective districts?Certainly the establishment of flour millsis the last thing the Government shouldbe asked to undertake.

31r. Taylor: Are you against the pro-posed purchase of a number of cows?

31r. HAYWARD: I know nothing ofthat. I have merely been giving a few

ideas of my awn-merely throwing out afew practical hints; and if they shouldprove of value I shall indeed be glad.

31r. A. A. WILSO~N (Collie) : I hadnot intended v~eakiing on the Addlress-ili-Reply, but as the debate is getting a littleweal, it seem-, to we thait, like JohnnyWalker's whisky, a hit of Scotch mnightput -some life into it. I have read che(lovernor's Speech, and I find it conini'smany subjects that, perhaps wouldhave been better left uint, and others that,perhaps; wiAll be dlistcussed in the nearfutuire. Among these are the amend-mient of the Constituition Act, the redi-trihuntion of seats, liquor lawr reform, theagricultural railways extension, and theTrading Accounts Bill. But the Gov'-erment have omlitted to make any refer-cure to the Workers' Compensation At1,thle Conciliation and Arbitration Act, andthe Coal Mfines Regulation Act. I regretthese subjects shiould have been left out,because I feel that soume considerationshould be given to the workers in thesematters. When suchl provision is aotmade plenty of scope is afforded bon.members to tell the House what theyivozidd have' dlone if given thle chance. Idesire to correct a statement made by thememiber for East Fremantle in connec-tion with the Donnybrook jam factory. Iregret that thle statement should havebeen made, because, as, a rule, the mena-ber for East Fremantle is very correct inhis littei-anreeq.

31r. Angwin: I cannot make a state-ment without having at least rumours togo upon.

31r. A. A. WILSON: Rumours areugly things and best left alone. Whenthe boo. member was speaking on theAdd rss-in-Reply he said-

I notice from the Governor's Speechthat it is the intention of the Govern-nient to introduce a Trading AccountsBill. I was hoping when the Ministerf or Lands was speaking the other nightthat he would have given us some ia-formation with regard to the Donny-brook Co-operative Society. it isknown that this society started a fa2-tory at Donnybrook for the purposeof manufacturing jam on the co-opera-

[17 AUGUST, 1910.]

tive Ini icilhle, but it was siuch a sideissue a., far as to-operation was conl-cerned that they could not co-operate together without getting somefinancial assistance from the Gov-ernment to carry on. What is theposition to-day'? There are some ru-mours about, and I have heard thatthle fact ory is closed down, and I havealso heard that a meeting has beencalled to wind tip the concerni. ifsuch is the case, and the Governmenthave advanced several hundreds ofpounds towards these works, I considerit is necessary that we should haveSame information with regard to thesecurity which is held for the moneyadvanced. If the Trading AccountsBill is for the express purpose of as-sisting industries such as this, I onlytrust that hon. members may give closeattention to it 'when it comes beforethem for consideration.

When once you have attacked any per-son or society with a rumour it is veryhard to get that rumour off; when youfling mud some of it sticks. I have herea letter from the secretary of the Don-nybrook to-operative Society touchingupon the remarks made by the memberfor East Fremantle. The letter reads -

I draw your attention to remarksmade by Mr. Angwin in the House onThursday (cutting enclosed) which 1have no doubt you have seen. I havewritten the West Australian giving anemphatic denial, but it -will be impos-sible to entirely counteract the mis-chief. Thle remarks are unfair andannuanly, and appear, judging fromthe quarter from which they come, tobe done with a distinct purpose.

It is bound to have a disastrous effecton getting in the calls, and will injureour credit, which so far has been good.Mr. Aug-win should be asked to disclosethe source of his information in theHouse.

I have an intimate knowledge of thesociety, and I knew the rumour was in-correct. I knew it was on a sound basis,and in this morniing's West Australianmembers will find a letter in which the

sccrctarv of the society gives the rumoura denial. I mention this because, wherefarmers or col-operative parties set outto benefit themselves and the State atlarg~e, it is unfair for members to cometo the House with rumours without firsttrying- to substantiate them.

Mr. Angnwin : We want information.

Mr. A. A. W1ILSON: I think the hon.member should have got the informationbefore making the statement. If theTrading Accounts Bill means assistanceto industries like the jam factory at Don-nybrook it shall have my support. Itrust it is for that purpose. In regard toworkers' compensation, I have alwaysheld that when a mail receives an injurycompensation should start from the timehe meets with the accident, and I thinkthe Government would he justified in atleast getting that clause of the Bill in-troduced by the member for Dundasthrough the House. I also consider thatin coal and gold tines bad ventilation orbad air should be treated as an accident.A Juan working in an atmosphere loadedwith powder and all the foul gases at-tached to it has sometimes to knock offwork for two or three weeks at a timebecause the poisonous fumes have beeuinjulrious to his health. In my opinionthat is anl accident, and I consider theGovernment would be justified in treat-ing it as an accident. I trust the Billintroduced by the member for Dundaswill get the consideration it is entitled toby humanity, if not by the Government.Last session 1 introduced a Coat MinesRegulation Amendment Bill, but I got nofurther than moving the second reading.However, from a remark passed hy theMinister for Mines I understood he wvasgoing to introduce anl amending Bill, andI am disappointed to find there is iiomention of it in the Governor's Speech.At present in the Collie coal fields theyare making preparations-I should uotsay preparations, but they are cuttingthe life out of the mines so much that inthe near future, I warn the Government,there will be a Whitebaven disaster atCollie. They are cutting the pillars andsupports out of the mine. This is badand inefficient management, and one mine

366 [ASSEMBLY.]

has collapsed altogether. In yesterday's.paPer there is ts report-

Collie, August 15th. A subsidenceof the root of the regutlar workings inthe Collie-Cardiff mnine occurred earlythis morning, the area affected extend-ing considerably over 100 yards. Aheavy mass of ground came down overthe pillars hut none of the miners wereinjured. 31r, Briggs, the inspector ofmines, ordered a cessation of work,and it mar hie several days before theworkings are cleared and passed as se-cure enough hi permit of the resump-lionl of coal-winning operation- with-out dang,1er.

Iwaut to correct this slightly. It wasthe management who ordered the ressa-tiun of work and ordered the men out,not Ur. Brigga_. the inispector of maines,and it is only fair to say it. The report.while it live-, some idea of the state ofaffairs, is not4 altogether correct. Wherethe fall occurred the pillars wvere takenont for yards and yards. The same stateof' affairs exist at another mine adjacentto the Collie river. I say, as a man with30 years' experience, that with a littletremor in the earth and the men working-below, we will have a disaster unequalledin this State. I warned the Labour ov-erment of the same thing in 1905,writing to 'Mr. Hastie, who wvas thenIfi mister for M1ines, as follows.

Dear Sir, I have been instructed bymy nnioun to draw your attention to thefact that the C'Ollie Proprietary Coal-fields of WV.A.. Limited, ace at the pre-sent tine "1slicing the pillars," that iscoal supports, at the Wallsend lease.The union have no desire to in any waxyinterfere with the management of themine. but they emphatically protestagainst any innovation in coal gettingthat will constitute an obvious menaceand palpable danger to the lives ofthe workmen employed; under such cir-cumstances our union desire an assur-ance from your department as to whatis their intention in such a matter ofgrave importance to all concerned.

That was in 19053. But still the pillarsare heing taken out. I may say that inconnection with the same mine it cost the

Government £990) to underpin the rail-way owing to the pillars being cut away.

Mr. George: How is it they get fav-oured?

M1r. A. A. WILSON: I do not blamethe inspector, but there is some persondoing,_ something, wrung, and I think it isup to the Government ito step in beforemany valuable lives, perhaps, are sacri-ficed.

31r. George: I con Id not see why therailways should have to pay that money.

Mrx. A. A. WIL.SON: The Cardiff mineis in the same danger. And in speakingof this mine T may say the taking out ofthe pillars was enhanced by the New-castle strike. Wherever they could geta pound of coal they ripped it ont, and insome cases they ripped out the shale orroof and sent it away to tbe overseasteamers who were getting coal fromthem. I make this charge that I can takeany nominee of the Mines Department towvhere the roof and the shale were abso-lutely blnsted down to the floor and sentaway to the ships as coal, and I stand onmy privilege as nmember of the House insavi I r it.

The Minister for Mines: Whant minewas; that?

31r. A. A. WILSON: Tile CardiffMine. The v alisilntely shot the shalefront thle roofs, iu Cte old hords and thentilled the stuff into the trucks they sentawayv to the boats for coal. That waskillingx the goose that lays the goldeneggs. Any company that sends away in-ferior stuff will not get customers. Nocustomer will come back to a mine thatsupplies had coal.

IMr. George: Who is inspecting it?Mr. A. A. WILSON: The trouble is

there is no inspector for other than fbo'-einnent e oal.

Mr. G~eontae: But what are the minersdoinel Why do they not protect them-

Mfr. A. A. WILSON: The miner is toldto fill that had coal and he fills it; if nothie gets the sack.

'Mr. O'Log-hlent: A miner is doing some-thing- now in asking for better inspec-tion.

366

[17 Auoxv, 1910.136

Mr. Angwiii: We ought to hav.e sentthese managers to prison for the protec-tion of the State.

Mr. A. A. WILSON: Personally speak-ing, 1 think it is tip to the Govermentto appoint a Commission to see if thesestatements of mine are correct, and to seethat the very best coal is sent out of theState. If the companies will insist onsending away bad coal we should takeaway from them any allocation of theGovernment trade. That is one of theways in whkeh I would punish these peo-pie. Now, in reg-ard to the coal trade asa -whole, I congratulate the industry, andthe Government incidentally, onl the factthat there was 39,052 tons increase in theoutput between the years 1908 and 1900,white the increase in comparison with1007 was 70,000 tons, It shows that thecoal oversea trade has come to stay, andit behoves thle Government to protect thattrade, now it has come to stay, from ex-ploiters and from men who would deliber-ately send a-way pure shale and dirt inorder to get a few pounds extra mlhen astrike is on. The Government pay 10s.61/d. for an article of 10,500 BritishThermal Units. Tf the quality of theceoal goes uinder that, the price is reducedId. for every 100 B.T.U.; h ut if it goesto 11,000 B.T.U. no more is paid. I donot consider that is encouragement to anycoal company to try to get better coal.Instead of merely reducing the pricewhen inferior coal is supplied, the Gov-,ernnient should also tell the companiesthat if they supply coal over 10.500B.T.U they will get the same increase perhundred. Instead of that, however, ifthe company produce coal good as. New-castle the Government will not give anyincrease. because 10s. 04djr. is the niaxi-Mum price for the value of 10.500 B.T.IT.and over. I consider that any Govern-ment that wants to encourage the indus-try should encourage the people to iwo-duce a better article and then we wouldhave a better tirade.

Mr- George: You get the same thingw ifyou reduce the price by so much.

Mr. A. A. WILSON: No; if yon pro-duce an article of 9,500 B.T.U. you arepaid flc* 81.jd. If you prndnce an article

of 14,000 R.T.U. you get 10s. 0%d. justthe same as for producing an article of10,300 B.T.U. So the companies are nottrying to get above the standard of 10,500B.T.U. There is a shoe loose somewhere,and I believe thle Government could, -withsatisfaction to themselves, give 1d. in-crease per 100 just as they reduce theprice by 1d1. per 100. It is proposed tobuild a railway from Wagin to Darkan.Now the settlers in the Beaufort andArithur River districts were promised arailway years ago. Plans, were given tothe settlers showing- a railway route totheir disctridt, but now it is intended bysonmc peopile to cut the line straight acrossand leave these people out. I believethat if settlers are encouraged to go onI he land, and if they ge assoIga railway will be given to them, the Gov-ernmnent should in all seriousness carryout their lpromise. Therefore, I shallcast my lot for the people in that cornerwho have been promised a railway, andwho are entitled to it by reason. of thepromnise given to them, and because ofthe ma1p11 issued to them before they wenton the land in the ictrict referred to.

(Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.370p.m.-)

'The MINISTER FOR WVORKS (Iloli.Frank -Wilson) :Owing to my indisposi-tion. and consequent absence from thehiouse dudng the past fortnight, I havenot had an opportunity of listening tothe Various and many speeches which havebeen dielivered in connection with the uio-tion for thle adoption of the Address-in-Reply. I regret that all the more, becauseonle is quite unable, sometimes at any rate,to get a fair- idea of what was in themninds of speakers from thle condensed re-potrts that appear in the Press. Apartfrom that, I have been unable, unlfortul-nately, to follow the newspapers a goodpart of the time I have heen absent fromthe Houise. I notice, however, that thleburden of thle complaints by most mepn-hers who have criticised the Speech, pre-pared by the Government and placed inthe hands of flis Excellency tile ov-ernor, has bean that it hag beeni verbose,too lenzrhy, conitains n*-,? -ing nlea, and im

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that account was unworthy of any specialacceptation or commendation at theirhands. These were the remarks chiefly ofthose opposed to the Government. I1wvant to voice my opinion that the veryfact of the Speech having caused so muchdiscussion during tile past three or fourweeks is in itself a proof that it doescontain matter which is of paramount im-piortancee to the State. There is uno doubtthe Speech would have received a likecondemnation had it heen curtailed, forthen it would have been said that it wastoo short. We cannot Jplease membersaltogether, we do not attempt to; but,we attempt in our beat judgment to putbefore Parliament and the country, asconcisely as we can, a true statement ofthe affairs of the State as they appear tous, and the programme of the Govern-ment. The remarks that have fallenfrom several members in connection withthe opening paragraph of the Speech are.to my mind, uncalled for. I am sure mem-bers will not take amiss the expression ofopinion when I say that the three para-graphs, brief as they are, with referenceto His late Alajesty the Ring, shouldhave been received by members at anyrate in silence, if not in commendation.

My. Heitmann: That is a matter ofopinion.

The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: Tomy mind there haes never been a soveieignequal to the late King, and the expres-sions of regret at his demise were in pro-per form, and ill proper language in thatSpeech. I know it is a matter of opinion,but unfortunately every member who hiescriticised those three paragraphs hasthought fit to preface his remarks by sav-ing he disclaimed any idea of not havingas high an opinion of His late Maojestyas those who drafted the Speech.

Mr. O'Loghlen: Everything can beoverdone.

The MI1NISTER FOR WORKS: Thecriticism was undoubtedly overdone. butthe paragraphs which referred to that tin-fortunate episode in the nation's careercertainly were not. I did not intend tospeak to the motion until I saw somerather severe criticisms of the Govern-ment, and more especially of the adminis-tration of the department which comes

tinder my own management, by the mem-ber for Kalgoorlie. I could jiot, ofcourse, in justice to myself, and in justiceto the officers who work under me, allowthe many charges which that hon. memberindulged in to pass by without makingsome reply, and some explanation, andshowing indeed where that hon. memberwas very far astray and very erroneousin the charges lie made. It would be ex-pected, especially of a gentleman whi:,fills the high position he occupies in thelegal world, a gentleman who has had theadvantage of sitting in this Cabinet forthree years or more. and who knows theinside running, that when lie took up therole of critic he should make himself abso-lutely certain of his facts, and state factsonly to this House when indulging in suchcriticisms. I notice that the bon. member-I am sorry he is not in his place atthe present time to listen to my reply-complains very hitterly that the Speechwhich had been placed in the hands of theGovernor was verbose. With all due res-pect, if anyone wants something that isverbose and pedlantic, I commend him tothe speech of the nmember for Kalgoorlieas reported in Ilansord. He accuses theGovernment of want of sympathy withthe goldfields, and at the same time en-deavon', to point out how anxvious hie isto hecal any little difference that may existbetween the goldields and coastal dis-tricts; how anxious be is to allay thefeeling that the goildflelds have not hadextended to them by this Administrationthat sympathy he Justly claims they areentitled to; and lie goes on to endeavourto prove his statement by quoting certaincases in connection with the administra-tion of the Goldfields Water Supply De-partment. Were he perfectly correct inwhat he said, I might perhaps give himcredit for endeavouriug to allay the feel-ing of suspicion against the coastal dis-tricts. and the Government in particular,which lie says exists on the fields. Seeing,however, that his statements Prom begin-ning to end are erroneous in the extreme.inaccurate, as I shall prove shoi-t]y . T amjustified in casting some slight doubt up-on the claim the hon. member has madethat be is endeavouring to suppress strifebetween the goldfields and coastal dis-

(17 Amin8, 1910.]

tricts. In connection with the water sup-ply on the fields, hie accuses the Govern-mnent of want of faith, and quotes a easein evidence, that of the Hannans RewardCompany. He led this Hlouse to believe,and I am sure members will agree thatI am not exag-gerating when I say thatfrom the language he used lie led mem-bers so to believe, that the OoldfieldsWater Supply Administration had op-piessed the trihuters who had been work-ing on the wine, had behaved like Shy-lock towards them, had pounced down ontheir victims, and bad practically ruinedthose men who were struggling to makea low-grade proposition pay its way. 1want to point out to the House that in sofar as the Goldfields Water Supply Ad-ministration are concerned, they havenever in any way harassed the tributers.The fact of the matter is that the pro-ceedings taken were against the company,and not against the tributers. Aetionwas taken against the Hannans RewardCompany. But the hion. member himselfis the solicitor for the comipany, and thewrit issued by the department was servedupon the firm to which hie belongs. Thatbeing so, one is justified in askitg, evenif I pass over the evident impropriety ofa solicitor ventilating the case of one ofhis clients in this Chiamber in this man-ner, -why be did not make himself con-versanit with the full facts of the case,and give those facts to the House, so thatmembers might jndge as to the positionlie took up and the fairness of his criti-cism. The facts of the case are as fol-low: Since 1906 this mine has been sup-plied with water by the department atlow-grade rates, namely 3s. 6d. per 1,000gallonfs, which, as membhers know,is equal to one-half of the ordin-ary rate charged at present formining supplies, namely 7s. The tri-butars -were working the mine at thattime and, getting into difficulties, theywent to the Minister for -Mines to assistthem. A grant of £250 was made fromthe MIines Development Vote in 190S toassist them to carry on operations. Themember for Kalgoorlie distinctly stated.or he is -reported to have state, that itwas not the tributers who got this amountbut the company. The tributers, Hunt

and Williams, got credit in the books ofthe GJoldfields Water Supply Departmentfor £25.0, which the NXinister grantedthem. In April, 1909, the year follow-ing-, the tributers had run into debt to thetune of £504, representing nearly twomonths' supply of water, against whichthe department had a deposit of only £55.After many attempts to get payment, andmany warnings that the department couldnot go on supplying them with water, thewater was cut off. Then the companycame to the assistance of the tributers,and they gave a guarantee that the debtwoulCd be paid, and that the future ac-counts of the tributers would also be paid.Then the water was turned on againi. IhOctober, 1909, the company came to thedepartment and absolutely took over thewhole of the account amoun'ting to £708then due uinder their guarantee, and theysigned the ordinary application form, acopy of which I have here, to be suppliedwith water in the ordinary course. Onlthe 14th of that month, in accordance withthe promise they paid £45, leaving abalance owig which practically only re-presented the September account of £303.'Hon. memubers Will see at once that thecompany camlle in m.1id took over the wholething-. I do not know whether they tookover the tribute: at any rate, they tookover the whole of the water accounts, andthey' signed the ordinary applicationaiid paid a sum of money off the account,which left a balance representing onemonth's supply of water. From thatperiod tip to th present time the tributershad had nothiing to do with tile depart-ineot. From October, 1909, to April thisyear. when the mine closed down, the com-pany took from the department water tothe value of £1,907. and they paid on ac-count of that sum in three instalmnents£5S56, increasing the debt, as hion. mem-bers will observe, to £1,355, against whichwe hold a deposit of £,55. The netliability, therefore, is Ml300. In Febru-ary last, two months before they elo,;edthle mine down, the company thout, evi-dently. that it was advisable that theyshould uise 'Mundaring water only forlsteaming purposes and salt water fortreatingr ore, and by that means make asaving. They came then to the depart-

370 [ASSEMBLY.)

ment, and I Would point out that the de-partment did not go to them or pounceoil them and say, *"You are using saltwater, and you must pay a certain rate."They made an application to the depart-ment for a partial supply of Mundaiingwater, whieh gave them the right to usesailt water for treatment of the ores onthe mine for other purposes, and theysigned all applicatioii, a copy oIf which Ihave here, asking that they qhoiild hesupplied with Miindariung water at thescheduled rate of 10s. per thousand gal-lons. [t was not owing to any action ofthe Goldields Water Supply Departmentas insinuated or suggested by the memberfor Kalgoorlie, but because the companythrough their attorney' , Mr. Sinclair,thought that their operations might becarried on more economically than hadhitherto been done. I want to point outthat the attorney frankly admitted to thesecretary of the department that the manin charge of the mine, Hunt, I think itwas, while managing it, certainly behavedfoolishly in continuing to use salt waterafter it had been demonstrated that hecould work more cheaply with schemewater under the regulations. Since themine closed down £150 has been paid offthe amount which was owing in May, andit was reduced to £1,150, an amount whichnow stands. Before the mine closed downthe officers of the department, contrary tothe implication that they harassed thesepeople until they closed down, offered,under my instructions, to allow the olddebt to stand over as long- as the companywould pay cash from day to day. or fromweek to week for the water they requiredto carry onl operations. The attorneystated it had been decided to close themine down for reasons apart from anyquestion of water supply. Of course, thedepartment has been pressing for thepayment of this amount, and we havetaken this position that we gave themcredit because we knew they bad assetson the mine which were valuable, and wekept ourselves posted as business menshould do as to the position of the com-pany* . We knew they owed £600 outsideand that they owed us L1,100, and on aconservative estimate made by our ownofficers. we reckoned that they had £2,000

worth of property onI the mhine, and thatthey should pay 20s. in the pound if soldup. We allowed them time, but we feltwe were acting rightly in pressing forpayment through the attorney, or that weshould ask for some security if theywanted the account to stand over indefi-nitely. This was not forthcoming, and inJune last, after all this time in givingtotieessiouis and in assisting these peopleto carry on, we issued a writ against thecompany. Immediately afterwards, withina couple of days, the attorney, Mr.Sinclair, left for London. He heard ofthe issue of the writ before he left, andon arrival in London cabled out to saythat he expected to be able to make ar-rangements on his return to resume op-erations and to make a proposal forsettlement of the account. I tookparticular pains to find out that-he did propose to return, and onascertaining from London by cable thathe was leaving there on the 12th August,and that he would be here about themiddle of September, next month, I stayedproceedings against the company pendinghis arrival. That is how the matter standsat the present time. I ask the Housewhether there is any justification for thecharge which has been made, andwhether this case can be quoted as evi-dence of want of sympathy on the partof the Administration to the goldields,or with those who are struggling to makelow-grade propositions pay. I want to-point out that there is no harassing ofthe tributers. The writ was issued againstthe company and not against the trihu-ters after every means had been taken toendeavour to meet them and as long aswe could et our accounts secured. Thecompany deliberately applied for a par-tial supply of Mundaring water, having-decided to use salt water for treatmentpurposes, presumably because theythought it was cheaper.

Mr. JTacoby: Was that applicationgrantedI

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Cer-tainly; and there was no such thing aspressing the meii who had been driven tothe last extremity, as the member forKalgoorlie stated, to use salt water in

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[17 AUGUST, 1910.]37

oider to gel a livelihood and keep opera-(i.'ii going. The statement was alsomade by the hion. member that theamount had been doubled through the in-creased charge for partial supply. Thatis obviously a gross exaggeration oftaets. I haove had the figures gone into,and I find that of £1,150 which this com-pany owes to the department at present,only £174 is for the increased cost din-ing the two months that they asked fora partial Supply. Only £:174, and yet themember for Kalgoorlie would have theHouse believe that the amount has beendoubled because the department pouncedupon those people like a Shylock on hisvictim to make them pay an increasedprice.

31r. George: Does that £E174 repre-sent the increased charge per thousandgallons?

The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS; Itrepresents the increased cost of water at10s. per thousand gallons during the timnethat they were using salt water for treat-meiit purposes. The next point that themember for Kalgoorlie made-and Iwant here to take exception to the veryexcessive language that he used in mak-ing these charges-was with regard to aclause in the agreement. This seems to bethe usual method of procedure, and whenone hears so many misstatements madeand misrepresentations of the actions ofMinisters and departmental officers bysome lion, members, one might be par-doned for saying it is their usual methodof procedure. The lion, member has puta wrong construction upon the clause thathe criticised. He said that the clause washarsh in the extreme, and provided, sothe lion, member said, that if the com-pany installed any machinery which en-abled them to minimise the waste of-water, they were to incur a penalty.There is no such thing in the clause. Theclause reads-'J agree that onl the minementioned hereunder no appliances shallbe installed which will materially reducethe consumption (If water without yourconsent being first obtained." There isno intention, and there has never beenany action taken to encourage waste ofwater. On the contrary, on many occa-

sions the officers of the department haveadvised their clients that they have seenwasteful methods in the use of wateradopted at the different mines. It mustbe obvious if any big installations ofcondensing plants, for instance, were ain-del-taken by the mining companies whichwould interfere to a large extent with therevenue of the department, the depart-ment must have the right to readjust itsscale of charges. And when I point outthat this matter was fully debated anddiscussed during the two days' confer-ence I had last year with the executiveof the Chamber of Mines, representing, asthey said they did onl that occasion, theinterests of the whole mining industry,when I p)oint out that we were enteringinto a three years' agreement, hion. mem-bers will see, how obviously necessary itwas that I should take some steps tosafeguard anl extreme position of thatcharacter.

Mr. Holman: They represented onlyhalf a dozen mnes.

The MFINISTER FOR WORKSThey represented a large percentage ofthe revenue obtained by the GioldfleldsWater Supply Department, and f mighthere point out that the total revenue fromtlw Kalgoorlie mines for all purposeslast year was £120,000. Roughly, 60 percent. or £72,000 is derived from watersold for steam purposes-that is, forholler purposes. Now it was shownto ale by our engineers that the use ofspecial mechanical appliances for con-densing water. sueh as those of theFouch6 type, might reduce the consump-tion of water used for boiler purposes byas much as 90 per cent., which would beequivalent to a loss of revenue of from£510,000 to to £60,000 per annum. Ofcourse it is understood that those condeui-sers if used would mean the consump-tion of a considerable amount of steawu,and necessarily of fuel to create thatsteam; and it is a moot question as towhether it would pay companies to instalthose condensers in a large way, going tothe enormous capital expenditure and thecost of extra fuel, even with the waterat 7s. per thousand gallons as it is to-day for the high grade mines. Indeed I

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:172 [ASSEMBLY.]

am of opinion that it would not pay;otherwise the mine managers would nothave entered into the three years' agree-ment with the department. Hut surely ifI had entered into that agreement forthree years to supply these mines, whoare by a long way the largest consumersof water from the scheme at a fixed rate,and I bad not safeguarded the position;and supposing they had installed thesemechanical appliances for eoudeusing-water and T had thus lost £40,000 or£50,000. or £60,000 in revenue, I wonderwho would have been the first to condemnthe administration of the Mines WaterSupply IDepartment? I venture to thinkthe member for Kalgoorlie would havegot up in his place and asked what sortof business man I called myself to enterinto an agreement which left the dooropen for the mine managers to placeme in that position, and to de-preciate our revenue to that extent.I want to say again the department doesnot dictate to its customers. It does notprevent any economical methods beingadopted for' the use of water. It car-tainly does not prevent any one fromusing any means lie can for the preven-tion of waste. But it does, say ineffect, we have entered into an agreementwith you to supply you with water onthe understanding that you will use acertain quantity and return us certainrevenue; if, therefore, you adopt somemeans by which to reduce that quantitymaterially, 20, 40 or 50 per cent., thenwe must have the right to re-adjust ourscale of prices, in order that we maymake the proposition a paying concern,or at any rate keep it as near to being apaying concern as it is at the present time.The next complaint to which I am boundbriefly to reply is that in regard to de-posits. The complaint has been made bythe hen. member, and other hon. membersalso, that a rearrangement has beenbrought about in the new regulation withregard to deposits against accounts. Noone has ventured to argue that the de-parhuent has no right to ask for a de-posit, any more than anyone would ven-ture to argue that theRallway Departmentshould not demand a deposit against the

credit it gives. It was said that the origz-inal deposit was an amount equal to onemonth's supply. I want to point out thatoriginally a deposit equal to onemonth's maximum consumption was askedfor; but, unfortunately, owing to somedisinclination on the part of the MUinis-tert or officers, that deposit was not in-sisted upon, and nominal deposits wereaccepted, while in several eases no de-posit at all was asked for. Often suchdeposits as were demanded did not equalone week's supply. When this state ofaffairs was placed before me hy the offi-cers of the department it was decidedthat we should put the thing on a soundfooting, that we should take the powerto demand a deposit equal to a six week'saverage of the previous six months' von-suniption. In many eases it is fouindthat this is not so great as the maximumconsumption of one month. That Was areasonable proposition to put into theregulations. We take full power to in-sist upon this deposit in eases wherenecessary. When it is remembered thataccounts are rendered monthly and, veryoften, are not paid until the 20th or the25th of the following month, it will bereadily seen that a deposit equal to sixweeks' average consumption is not toogreat to cover the liability. A deputationwaited on me in July last, when therewere present, the member for Kalgoorlie,the member for Kanowna, and the lateleader of the Opposition, the member forBrown Hill. On that otccasion there waspresented a petition bearing 138 signa-tares and protesting against what wastermed an alteration in the regulations.I had these signavtures analysed, and itwas found that of the 138 only 7 werein any way connected with the minessupplied by the Goldfields WaterSupply Administration-only seven whorepresented those mines; and of theseven only four were immediately affectedby the regulation, the deposits already inthe hands of the department being foundsufficient in the remaining three eases.The hon. members who waited on me onthat occasion will remember I pointedout that whereas the regulation onlyempowered me to demand a deposit equal

372

[17 AuQL'S, 1910.]37

to six weeks' consumption, the miines trustitself demanded, tinder its agreement withits members, a deposit equal to twomonths' supply-a hank guarantee, orcash deposit equivalent to two mionthis'supply of water. They, apparently, weretaking no risks at all, and it is satisfac-tory to the department that they ask forthat guarantee. My reply to the depu-tatiou was that I would be quite willingthat an officer should go uip to the fields-indeed that was in reply to the memberfor Brown Hill who asked, "Will yousend an officer uip and endeavouir to meetthese people and make a satisfactorysettteiucnt-9" I said I was quite willingto (10 that or to meet any reasonable de-mand,. so long as we protected the rev-enue and were making no bad debts. Themember for Kalgoorlie asked. "Will theofficer be empowered to waive the regis-lation if necessaryl9" I said, "Certainly,be wvill be* empowered to make satisfac-tory arrangemnents to both sides, always,safemaing th evenuie. So long as-we can meet the consumers satisfactorilyto them and] not make bad debts we arewilliuz to meet them." The secretaryvi-sited Conigardie. Kalgoorlie and Kan-owna and] personally investigated everycase, and ar-rived at a mutually satisfac-tory agreement in every case in dispute;and to-day every case has been settled ona mutually satisfactory basis. Wherethen, I want to know, is the evidence inregard to this condition of discontent, sofar as the mining industry is concerued 7The hon. member has not been contentto cxaggcrate this position-and I amsorry to think that by his action he hasaccentuated the ill feeling that undoubt-edly has heen engendered against theGovernment by the Kalgoorlie M iner dur-ing the past five or six months. The hon.member is. assisting in that directionl, butI think when an hon. member lays him-;elf out to make charges of this descrip-ion against any Administration, whetherit be Labour or otherwise, he should beperfectly sure of his facts before makingthe charges which, of course, must beiamaging. not only to the Administration,)ut also to the officers of the department,rho cannot protect themselves and who,

in this case, are honourable, straightfor-ward men, doing their work exceedinglywell. He next asks for information in. re-gard to the sinking funds and the specialprovision which is made for the mainten-ance of the water main and other por-tions of the works. Although the hon.member is not here just now I may, per-haps be pardoned for explaining theposition as it is to-day. The original loanof £2,500,000 carries a 3 per cent. sinkingfund. The additional capital of £366.500was obtained by re-appropriations and, ofcourse, it carries the sinking funds at-tached to the loans under which themoney was raised, namely, 1 z per cent.and i per cent. Suipp lemen tary borrow-ings from the Savings Bank amounted to£371,000 carrying a 2 per cent, sinkingfund. The first and second accounts, in-cluding interest, are paid by thie State,and in 1908-9 they produced a deficit of£81,000. In 1900-10 the deficit was£C43,000, which had to he made good bythe State out of consolidated revenue. Forthis financial year it is estimated that theamount will be a little less, and the deficitto be made good out of consolidated rev-enue will be something like £40,000.Special reserves set aside to equalis3ethe cost of accruing maintenance ex-penses now amount to £C53,000, and thesum of £11,000 per annum has for someyears past been set aside for this purpose,the purpose of relieving the heavy in-creased maintenance of the mains andplant in future years. As it gets olderthe main requires more attention and moremoney expended on it, and as I pointedou1t, four years ago the cost of main ten-ance was £22,000, whereas last year itwas £30,000 or £8,000 more. That isbound to go on year after year, thereforewe set aside this £E11,000 to equalise thatexpenditure. The present intention is tocontinue to set aside at least £li,000 perannum, and probably more if it can hespared, for this pnrpose year after year.

Mr. Sea ddan: Have you calculated thelos on the workings after making all de-ductions?

The M1INISTER FOR WORKS,- Yes,all deductions are made. The total amountcontributed from Consolidated Revenue to

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finance this scheme since its inception is£3978,200. Where then, I ask again, is theevidence of a want of sympathy with theminling industry or the people who resideonl the goldfields? Where the miner whomay be carrying onl his operations 30 or100 miles away from tis: Oolfelds WaterScheme lies to find his own water for thepurpose of treating the ore lie breaks out,and yet has, through the ordinary chan-nels of taxation, to pay his proportion ofthe amount which is made good oput ofConsolidated Revenue, the person wholives onl thle coast end who lies no interestwhatever, probably, either in miningor the water supply in connectiontherewith, also has to find hispi oportioli of the amount contri-bitted out of Consolidated Revenue 'omake good the deficit. Where is theevidence of lack of sympathy in whet 1have retailed to-night in counetion withthese two cases, and these are the twomain points the member for Kalgoorliedepends on to prove his statement thatthe Government were out of sympathywith the requirements of the goldields.Before leaving this aspect oif the questionI want to point out that the adminlistra-tion of the Goldfield-, Water Scheme iscite of no small magnitude and that it isno child's play to control an admijiistra-tion of this size. It supplies not only themines for their operations at Kalgoorlie,Coolgardie, and Kanowna, but it also sutp-plies 12 principal towns.; 14 townships,and 14 farming extensions, comprising inall some 40 reticulation systems of whichall but eight are outside thle goldfields;districts. Surely if the administration isso bad we would have complaints. from.all. these different centres, we would havepeople erying out here and there that thlemanagement was. bad and that some alter-ation should he made in the admini-irationof the department. But we have no eni-deuce of that, we have no complaints. as.to the administration outsidle the aold-fiel. and very little from thle -uioldields.that is from those whot are directlyconsumeN. I believe that the Mlinisterfor M1ines; on one occansion agreed to re-ceive a deputation but no one turned tipat the appointed time to ventilate thegrievances.

Mr. O'Loghlen: A deputation at Leo-nlora agreed to meet a Minister but thleMinister did not turn uip.

The M1INISTER FOR WORKS: Thatis absolutely incorrect. It any3oii±ne aUivground for complaint in regard to thatI~otiora episode it is thle Minlister of theCrown for thle discourtesy meted out tioim. After having setnt a message to the

mayor that lie was gains to meet hint., theM1iniister went out of hi-4 war to drive

somue two or- three miles into Lseonora atniight, but his worship tile mayor anid the,eouncillors would not meet the Mlinister.

Mr. O'Loguhlen: They went to meet you.

The MiNISTER FOR WORKS: Thteydid notlhig of the sort. The wnly ar-rangemient 1 had was a wvire fronm themayor aslking if I would receive a depu-tation when I went to Leonora with His;Excellency the Goverior enl route toSandstone. I replied that I Wotuld makearrangements on my arrivall. The mayorknew that the Governor end myselfwere guests of the manager of the Sonsof ('walia mine at Owalia. I toldthe member for Leonora that Iwouild see when I arrived at Gwaliawhat arrangements had been mtade. WhenI arrived at Owalia I saw Mr. 3McDermottwho saidi. "~There is no one to meet youat Leonora. I have seen the mayor; hehas accepted enl invitation to (line at myhous e withI the Governor and yourself atseven o'clock, and hie says he will do alllie wvents there after dinner." On thatshowing could I do anything else hut gowith Mr. M1cDermott and His Excellencythe Governor? We wvaited dinner for 20minutes for the mayor, but the mayor didnot pilt in ant ap~pearance. Instead, acort note came saing lie could not attend,and that he had been to the station tomeet the Minister. I immediately askedMr-. McDermott to send a note saying Ire--retted there had been cur inisujnder-standin- and that I would be in at aquarter p~ast nine to meet the mayor atideovneillors. I drove in aeeordinsly andas4i-ettaiiied. that the note had been de-livered to the mayor. but that he thoughtit infra dig, to wait for me, and he wentto the pictures instead. I did. not seehim that nitht. and I had to go back to

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Owalia. I want to know who was theaggrieved person, the mayor with hiscouncillors, the member for Leonora, orthe Minister for Works, acting as Pre-mier? 1 was pointing out the magnlitude4if this water schemne. If there is any-thing seriously wrong with the adminuis-tratdon, surely we would have complaintsfrom those supplied with water iii addi-lion to the goldfields. But that is not so;we have not these complaints. Iu everyMae with regard to the farming exten-

sions, of which there is a great number,hefore anl extension is provided we havea guarantee for 10 Years f rom. thle farmersagainst the cost of the reticulation put infor their purpose. and they have to lodg'esubstantial prepayments half-yearly in ad-vance against the water supplied to them,these prepaynients ranging from £2 to £33per individual. But no complaint is madefrom these agricultural centres. Theyrealise it is a boon to get this wvater; andif they are satisfied with the price theywillingly give the granH~tee and Makethese prepayments in advance. the sameas are asked for on the g-oldifelds in eon-nection with the mining industry. Thleincreased consumption in the dlistrictsapart from the goldfields during the pastyear has hen nearly 12 per cent., andnotwithstanding the increased prices dur-ing- the last nine months, arranged lastyear at the conference I have referred to,and the alleged restricted conditions whichhave been) made the bone of criticismagwainst the Government, the increasedconisumption for mining purposesduring 1909-10 was over 40 milliongallons. This does not look asthough the administration was put-ting undue or oppressive restrictionson the consumers. I would like to askwhether those gentlemen who negotiatedthe increased price with me could beclassed as foolish when they agreed to aclause which was shown to them as esqen-Hial to protect the revenue of the depart-ment ! Surely if these mine managers,with all the acumen they undoubtedly pos-sess and their business ability, thoughlt sobadly and so strongly of that clause.which the member for Kalgtoorlie hasmade so much of, they would have re-s4ented it being put into their agreement

and would have refused to sign an agree-ment with that clause in. The next mat-ter on which the hion. member makes apreat mouthful and on -which I regret tosay hie shows lamentable ignorance, is thatof finance, more particularly in connectionwith the Savings Bank. He allegeswaste, and he is going to set the financialaffairs of the State straigh-lt through theinvestment of Savings Bank funds. Hleused very strong language in connectionwith that. He said it was neverthelesstrue but scarcely credible that althoughifor money received in the Savings Bankthe depositorts 'were paidI three per cent.by the Government, yet that money wasnow going to the Associated Banks forone per r-ent.; in other words that theGovernmienf' were making a loss of twoper cent.; also that to-day the Assoia tedBanks had £24)0.000O of State mioney scat-tered among themn hearing interest at oneper tent., while we were borrowing on theLondon market and paying 31/ per cent.And he uised that as anl argumnit that wewvere cutting down our charity votes andour hospitals and that we were si rikinghome to thle closer sense of the people.Let me point out how erroneous the lion.member is and how ignorant he is on thesubject.

Mr. Heitlnn: That is what we usedto point ouit.

Mr. Wa'lkcr: You used to put him uipto reply to us.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thatwas on legal questions. I usually reply tofinancial questions -myself. Let me piut itclearly before the House, because it iswell that members and the people shouldknow the exact position of the SavingsBank. The surplus cash of the SavingsBank is lodoed with the Western Austra-lian Bank and has nothing to do with theAssociated Banks; the account is kept atthe Western Australian Bank. On thefirst £100,000, interest is allowed by thebank at 3 per centi.. and not one per cent.as the lion. member says. On the seondZ2100.000 lying at the Western AustralianBank to the credit of the Savings Bank,we get 11'2 per cent. True it is that underthe agreement made with the bank theycould demand that half of the £200,000be placed at fixed deposit for 12 months

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at 3 per cent., aiid thle other half at fixeddeposit for six months at 1 f- per cent.,but that has not been done. The interestat 3 per cent. and 11, per cent, is paidso lt g as the amount to thecredit of' the Savings Bank is notbelow £200,000. There is a clauseiii the agreement enabling the batikto demand three months' notice of with-drawsl for this V200,000; but as for thebalance of the fund1 which hears one percent. interest, it can be withdrawn, not-withstanding what the bon. member says,at any time at call for Savings Bank pur-poses. If the Treasurer wishes to with-draw any sums to meet demands of thedepositors in the Savings Bank for re-payment he can withdraw at any time. Ifonl the other hand, he wants'to withdrawover £C20,000 for other purposes he mustgive 30 days' notice. We have at presentiii the Western Australian Bank a creditof £650,000. There is not, therefore,£C200,000 scattered broadcast among theAssociated Banks at one per cent. asalleged by the member for Kalgoorlie.

Ur. Bolton: There is over £400,000 atone per cent. according to your figures.

The M1INISTER FOR WORKS: Wehave £45,000 at one per cent, at callwhich can be drawn upon in ease of need.

Mr. Holman: It is bad business.

31r. Jacoby: That is purely SavingsBank money?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Yes;but is it bad business? The deposits inthe Savings Bank amount to 3 , millionsof money to-day. It is a moot questionas to what is considered a safe marginto be held at all; that is, a cash reserveto meet the calls of our clients in theSavings Bank with 3 ' millions depos-ited. I have mainta "ined that 10 per cent.is sufficient, and that it ought not to gobelow 10 per cent, with the safeguardswe have in our Government SavingsBank Act by which we can insist on hav-ing one month's notice of withdrawal upto £50 and three months' notice of with-drawal of over £50. Of course that isnever acted upon but it is there. For in-stance, for the year ending the 30th June,

1909, wihich was the finish of my ternof office as Treasurer, the amount of thdcash reserve in the Western AustraliatBank to total liabilities of thle SaYings Bank equalled 12 per cern-During the present year we haihadI a largpe accession of deposits owin;to the liberalisation of the Act. M.%one~ihas been rolling in, until we find flit

amount of cash reserve to total liabilitieon the 30th June, 1910, was 17 per cen'Of course the ordinary banks hold mud[larger reserves than thtat; they hold,percentage of cash and bullion t(liabilities wiieh varies in Austraiifrom 39 per cent to 83 per cent.tlte average for the Commonwenitibeing 52 per~ cent.; and the Baniof England, I would rewind lhon, mewlbers.. has been as high in its reserve a63 pier cent., and has never since 136gone below 30 per cent of its depositsI admit at once that there is no analogbetween the Savings Bank and those trading- institutions, for the reason that w4have the safeguard in the ease of thibank that we can insist upon notice hem1jgiven before depositors are allowed tbwithdraw. 'I take exception to the statement made by the member for Kalgoorlithat if inqttiry were made it would h,found that this money, this £C200,000 h,talks about, but which refers to £650,001

as I htave erplained, was not at call. If.said that the very most the Governmencould obtain if they were to exercisitheir full right would be £-50,000, amqthat for the balance they would have tigive notice not of weeks but of month;Thtere is a statement to make to tluHouse and tlte public. I have shown thato-day we could demand £450000. if thSaving Bank required it, from th,Western Australian Bank. True, themighlt have some difficulty in finding iibut we have tite power to demand it, am4so long as there is a sovereign or an:bullion itt thle bank we could obtain pay'went- The hion. member was not content witht making this misstatement, husaid we were tnot entitled to call up morthan one-quarter or one-fifth of thamouttt deposited except on long uotic(The member for Swan I think it was wh

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[17 AfrST, 1910.]37

interjected. "You would dispense withthe reserxe"! And the lion, member forKalgoorlie replied, "I would not keeptile reserve at such a low figure."1 On theone halld, lie blames the Government forhaving money on hand to meet claimsmade by Salviungs Bank depositors, andonl tile other hand hie says we should makeiP more. I have never heard of such anattitude heing taken up by any membercf this Honse when speaking on thefinancial qjuestion.

Mr. Heilini He desired you to earnmore nhgle v on it.

Mr. (knz : ',howv lim bow yiuwould do0 it.

Time MINISTER FOR WORKS,: Theho n. n emt ir 1)1. nght this ej estioti in forithe purupouse of nttaekin-iig., for no. thaving been nwre economical. He sa id,also-

W t1ilt II& is sutpposed to he goodfinance it ik suggested that we are jnsti-fled in economnising in smnall sumis incountry dlistricts. cutting off hospitals,reducing charity grants; in fact. every-thing that strikes home to the closersense of the people; while this is beingdone money is beintr wasted as I in-divate.

Such was said by a man who professes to,have knowledge of the subject he is dis-cussing. The means by which he stug-gests the finances could be put right isthat the Government should erect abuilding at a cost of £40,000 or Z50,000so as to have all the public departmentstinder one roof, and he goes on to saythat if this were done a saving of £2,000a year would he effected on the rent-als now being paid. A school boywould be able to calculate that if sucha sum were borrowed at 31,A or 334 percent., the interest together with the costof raising the Ioau and of paying thesinking fund, would be at least as much asthe estimated saving of £2,000 a year. Hisideas are wonderful, but they do notmean much. He knows the Governmenthave long, had on hand a scheme forhousing all the departments together ifonlv they ('an get hold of the block ofbuildings, portion of which are occupied

by the Postal Department and anotherportion by the -Municipal Council ofPerth. This is a case in which we shouldhasten slowly. We do not want to makea mistake now. The Commonwealthanthorities have given notice to returnthe postal buildings to the State, and wehave agreed to take them back. Themunicipal council want to get out of thetown hall buildings if only they can ob-tain a suitable site elsewhere. There-fore it is worth the while of the Govern-ment to wait, to hasten slowly, so that

when the work is undertaken of housingall the departments ou that block ofbuildings a good job can be made of it.

Mr. Angwin: You are spending£15,000 on new offices for the Stores De-partmnent, wvhereas you have buildings atFremntle empty.

The MINISTER FOR WORKSFremnantle provided the member for Kal-goorlie with another cause of complaintagainst the Government. He suggestedwe were spending too much money atFremantle. A huge wheat harvest is ex-pected this year for shipment to themarkets of the world, and be suggestedthat we had not given proper considera-tion to the question of shipping wheat inbulk. I w'ant to point out how wrong hisassertion was. Before a system of ship-ping grain in bulk canl be adopted, beforethe system ini vogue can be altered, manymatters have to be taken into considera-tion. I would remind members that inSouth Australia, 'Victoria, and 'NewSouth Wales, which States have beenshipping vast quantities of wheat formany.) years past, the question is still oneof investigation. Tnt South Australia thequestion of bulk handling of wheat hasbeen under consideration for the past 20yeais, and the authorities there have notbteen able to come to a conclusion as towvhether the system is plracticable, so faras that State is concerned. From that itis easy for one to understand why weshould not come to a conclusion on thiscase immediately- We have to face thispositioin: Last year we had great de-lays, in the despatch of v'essels with wheatfronm the harbour at Fremantle. Ourharvest this year promises to he touch

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in excess of what it was; last year, and ifthat proves to be the case we shall beexporting double the quantity we did lastseason. Therefore, something had to bedome immediately, and we faced the diffi-culty in toider that we should niot becaught napping-. but be ready to handlethe wheat next harvest. 'Not only Wasthere the necesity to provide facilities atFrenmantle . but tere was also the ques-tion. of buying- rolling stock. That alsowas faced, and (orders have heen placed,both with the Government workshopsand at Rocky Bay. We ho1)e by thismeans to be able to carry the large ship-ments, of wheat over our railways. Thesyvstem which is being installed at Frc-m antle is the most up-to-date of lllknown in the Commonwealth. All thefai4lts that applied to the principle ofbag elevators and appliances, and whichhlave been discovered by those engagedin the work in the Eastern States, havebeen remedied in connection with thesystem nlow being installed in Fremautle,and we hope that ire shall haove a mostup-to-date plant Suited to the methodjsadopted by our farmers at the presentday and by our railway system. Tocarry out thle bulk system. in a pr-opermanner it would mrean, not only thatproper waggon% would have to be con-structed and provided by farmers forgetting their wheat to the various rail-way stati'ons, but there would also haveto be constructed proper railway wag-gons, grain-proof, to carry the wheat overthe system. In addition, at every sidingor station where supplies of wheat weredelivered, there would hlave to bespecial accommodation for handliingwheat in hulk, and that accommodationwrould have to he of such magnitude :1qto enable the farmers to store theirwheat if they had not ships waiting tosend it to, or were awaitiag better mar-kets, or if they did not want to send itonl at that lime.

Mr. Bath: The greater production willcompel you to do all these thing,.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: 'Yes,but not at the present moment. It c!an-not be done in fivec minutes. The system

has not heeti adopted in Canada exclu-sively yet.

Mr. Murphy: They have never doneit in California yet.

Mr. Tfroy: How mudh has, Californiaproduced?

11r. Murphy: TIhe most in America,while I was at sea.

Mr. Taylor: You are always at sea.Thle M1INISTER FOR WORKS:

Here is another aspect of thle case. Sup-pose we had appliances for hulk hand.ling at IFremantle or any other port, wewould then have to get special trucksconstructed, whereas now we can use anysort of truck, from the covered-in vantoo a cattle truck, for carrying the wvheatin bags. There would also be thle neces-sity for having steamers specially fittedup for the traffic. Under the Board ofTrade reguilations, they would have tofit Up the vessels with small compart-tuents. as they are not allowed to carry-wheat in hulk in open holds. Such ves-sels cannot carry general cargo such asrails and heavy machinery. to any greatextent on the outward passage, thereforethey must look to thle homeward passageas a source of revenue. The fact that ithas not heen proved that wheat can he]Eloperl * carried in hulk through the SuezCanal or via the Cape, together withthe other reasons f have given, provides a:SLiIielIt answer to the statements madeby the member for 'Kalgoorlie. The Gov-ern1ment -acted in a practical way. Sosoon as we realised that we mighit have toface a very much larger export of wheatthis season than last, wye took the matterin hand and did what was best inl ourjuidgment. onl the advice of the officersof the Harbour Trust, to provide thosefacilities which will go a long way to-wards cheapening the cost of shipmentand enable our farmers to compete withthose who grow wheat in other parts ofthe Commonwvcalth. There is anotherqu~estion I have been called veryi severelyto account for by the member for Kal-Pgoorlie: that of the Fremantle election.I havo already occupied some time inans:wering the criticismns which have beenpaelsed upo )n my department. This wasneessary ill defence of the officers of thle

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department, and I am the last man inthe world to allow my officers to be at-tacked unjustly without standing uip anddefending them. If there be one matterI thought I had reason to be proud of tosome extent during my brief occupancyof the Premier's office, during the Pre-mier's absence in London, it was the re-sult of the Fremantle election. Anotherwvas the action I took, and promptly, inconnection with the Transcontinentalrailway.

Members: Oh!

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Ofcourse members say "Oh." M1embers areentitled to their opinion, and I hope itwill he based on sounder premises thanthose which resulted in the charges madeby the member for Kalgoorlie. With re-gard to the Fremantle election I wouldlike to know what act of mine or my col-leagues was so disgraceful As to calldown the condemnation of the memberfor Kalgoorlie in 4connection with thatmatter. He mentioned the matter twice;once at the opening of his remarks, andagain during his concluding remarks.He implied that something wrong hadtaken place. He said we had gone toFrenmantle to curse the candidate and hadremained to bless him. I give that anabsolute and unqualified denial. BeforeI went to Fremantle to address a meet-ing on behalf of the hon. member whosits in this House I knew that he hadbeen selected to contest that electionagainst a Labour member. The onlyaction I took was to ask those of our wayof thinking politically to see that onlyone contested the election against theLabour candidate hon. members oppositeput up to win the seat. I am happy tothink that iny efforts and persuasionswere avaiable and were acceded to onthat occasion- The result of asking them,not dictating to them, to select their ownman was th~at they were patriotic enoughto submit their names to a selection corn-inittee . and the choice fell on the hon.'member who represents Fremantle at thePresent time. He it was who obtained theconfidence and support of a great ma-jority of the electors of Fremrantle. Iwant to make a few remarks with regard

to the Transcontinental railway questionwhich me~mbers opposite, or some of them,have had such a lot to say About. If Iunderstand fully the feelings of the lateleader of tihe .Opposition, he has declaredthat he has perfect confidence in the pre-sent Administration of' Federal affairs,and that he is quite prepared to sit backand wait until the Government builds therailway. 1 am not going to blame himfor possessing that faith, but he mustpardon me when I say that I believe aresponsible MJinister has no right to havesuch implicit faith as that in the partyin power in connection with a matterwhich is of such vital importance toWestern Au.4tralia. It is passing strangethat those members that have condenedaniy actions, have never said one word inexplanation or in support of the attitudeof the Minister for Home Affairs whenhie propounded-

'Members: Oh!Air. O'Loghlen: I did.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Ex-cept the member for Forrest, when theMinister for Home Affairs prop oundedthat preposterous proposal that this Stateshould give up a large slice of its territoryin return for the construction of the rail-way. The memnber for Forrest says, "ofcourse we would give up the territory.'As far as I am concerned I say unhesi-tatingly that there is a large majority ofthe people in Western Australia whowould never countenance any such action.I am satisfied that the action I took onthat occasion stopped the land grab pro-position which was promptly repudiatedby the Prime Minister.

Opposition Members: Oht[ Several interjections.)The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I

would like to kno,%. M1r. Speaker, who itis that is addressing the House.

-Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask ho"i. mem-bers to refrain from interjecting in thisrnannier. It is impos-zible for Harnsard totake a proper report of the proceedings-while thiere is so much interruption.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Letme point out that this matter is mnchmin1e serious-

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Mr. Scaddan: WVill you tell mevwhat thePremier promised in connection- with thisrailway?

The MINILSTER FOR WORKS: ThePremier promised that certain rentalsfrom pastoral lea-ses along the route ofthe railway should be set apart towardsany loss in the working- of the railway.Whiat does the lion. memben, say it is thatthe Premier said!I

Mr. Seaddan: The papers say that thePremier proised the revenue from astrip of land 23 miles on either side ofthe proposed route for all time.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Ifthe papers said such a thiingr then they aremnaking a howling mistake.

Mr. Scaddati: That statement was pub-lished in the West Australian and wasnever denied.

The UMSTER FOR WORKS : Iknow exactly what the Premier said. Theposition with regard to the railway isthis. I made a proposition to the SouthAustralian Government. and I received areply which I was prepared for. I donot know that a discussion onl this mat-ter will tend to help the subject forward.hut I may as well teti members whathappened. I received a r~eply that theFederal Government had agreed to intro-duce a Bill to acquire thle 'Northern Ter-i-tory, and that they had agreed to carryit through. and, therefore,' a, that Billprovided for the construction of theTranscontinental railway to Western Auts-tralia there would not be any need to takeaction as indicated. I published thatreply at the time. I then immediately' re-plied asking for the terms of the NorthernTerritory Acquisition Bill, or that I shouldbe told the main features of it, so thatI might be in the position to understandwhat it was that was going to he passed.Then it was pointed out that thle measurewas similar to that which haul been pre-sented hy the previous Government. Acopy of the Hill was forwarded to me.and I found in it that there was one smallclause which referred to the Transcontin-ental railway to Western Australia. aclause which stated that. "tlhe Common-wealth may constrnct or cause to be con-structed a line from Port Augusta to theWezt Australian boundary of South Arts-

tralia." Every other ctause in the Bill re-ferred to the Northern Territory, andeverything in connection with South Aus-tralia was referred to in the clauses as"tshall" be done. The Commonwealth en-ters into a hard and fast compact that itwill construct the railway, that it will takeover certain territory and all the liabilitiesin connection with it, that it will takeover the existing railway from PortDarwin to Pine Creek. and take over therailway system from Qodnadatta to PortAugusta with all the acenied liabilities inconnection wvith the working of the sys-tem. The deficiencies amount to a largesumi of mone-y. Further on the Bill states;that the Government shiall complete theconnection by building a railway southfrom Pine C reek througlh South Austra-lian territory to couple up with the linewhichi ends at Oodnadatta. It also pro-vides that the overland telegraph line hias,to be taken over to a certain extent, andthat altogether there is a liability of bet-tween five and six millions sterling whichthe Commonwealth must take over, andof which Western Australia must provideits proportion. In addition extra wvorksare to be constructed and these will runinto another five or six millions sterling.aceordinus, to Senator McGregor. who in-trodnced thle Bill into the Senate. Thetotal expenditure in connection with thismeasure, which i., still before the FederalParliament. will he something tikce910,250.000. and Western Australia withhave to bear its proportion of it. If theState has not to find thle capital itself itwill have to hear a p~roportion of the in-terest anid sinking fund on the moneys;which must be borrowed to carry out theeffect of the measure. We hare onl theother hand the fart that the Federal Gov-ernment is against thle idea of raisillg loanfunds, ait any rate. aq far as suich worksas the North~ern Territory are concerned.

Mr. Bath: 'No.The MfTNISTER FOR WORKS: Theyv

war raise loan funds for the eonstrnctionof the' railway.

Mfr Bath: And in connection with theaircjiisil ion of tile Northern Territorythev- have practically stated that they re-.gard it as one of the greatest assets in, the

ii'sivof the Commonwealth.

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The MINISTER FOR WORKS: As Iundersltand the principles of the LabourGovernment they have declared emphati-cally against the use of loan funds forany work not directly reproductive. Itcannot be said that the development andthe opening up of the Northern Territory,which has been such a drag, and hasproved such a loss to South Australiafor years past, is goin,- to be reproduc-tive.

M-. Bath: South Australia has had nopolicy in connection with it.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Iwant to point out that South Australiahas done her best in connection with theNorthern Territory. That State has builthundreds of miles of railways, establisheda port, and endeavoured to open up themining fields there, and she has had whathon. members opposite object to, Chineselabour working on the mines. If SouthAustralia has not been ablii to make asuccess out of all that what will the Corn-monwealth Government do? Anyhow, theprospect is not too alluring. But wvhat Iwant to point out is, if that railway linebe constructed, and it will be constructedonl the passage of this measure, itwill be built before any action istaken in connection wvith; the WestAustralian railway. One is the lawof the Commonwealth and the other anunwritten promise to a State. If thatNorthern Territory line is constructed, andif it is deviated into Queensland, and

eeyeffort is being made in that direc-tion, New South Wales will also make anleffort to couple up with it, and the timewill assuredly come when we will have tofight for the retention of the mail boatservice onl the Southern coast. As sureas we are standing here, with the vastpopulation of three and a half millionsonl the Eastern side of Australia againsta mere handful of 300.000 in the West,the time will come when those people willsecure the calling of the mail boats atPort Darwin instead of at Fremnantle. Ido not want to be anl alarmist, but I wanthon. members to Understand what is pas-sing tl,roirnh my mind, and what we haveto qafettuand this State against. We muststand together lo see that Western Aus-

tralia is not more isolated than she is atthe present time.

Mr. Bath: Will the Minister reply toone question; why did not these thingsstrike the Government when. Mr. Deakin'sparty introduced the same Northern Ter-ritory Bill?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS:There wats never any suggesition that weshould give these millions of acres of landto have the railwa v constructed.

Mr. Bath: The same provisions are inthe Bill now that were in it when SirJohn Forrest was a member of the Minis-try.

Tile MINISTER FOR WORKS: Ihave only seen the Bill just recently forthe first time.

.%rt. George: How much are the SouthAustralian Government to give?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: TheSouth Australian Government are asked togive the same as Western Australia wasasked, namely 25 miles on either side ofthe line. Hion. members have taken meto task for Saying that Western AustraliaWvould build that line. I repeat ratherthan have that construction delayed fortwo or three years longer, let alone 10years as will probably be the case, Iwould pledge Western Australia to buildit. I am satisfied that the tine would bea payable proposition very soon after itscompletion, and I am satisfied from in-quiries that I have made during the pastfew months that we could build that rail-way on a 4ft. S'Ain. gauge, equip it, andfind a plentiful supply of wvater alongthe route for a million and a half ofmoney. I am satisfied also that I couldrun that line for not more than a loss!over and above working expenses andinterest onl capital, of £25,000 per anl-num. And I am backed uip by the ex-pert officers of my department in myopinion that that loss of £e25,000 per an-num would very soon disappear, and thatin a couple or three years the railwaywould be self-supporting. Yet we areasked to give uip 14%/ million acres of_2oo,1 pastoral land in return for thatline, and we are told also that the Com-monwealth Government may tax us toconstruct the railway out of revenue. Inever before heard such a preposterous

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asseytion. If bon. members aye honestin their advocacy of the interests ofWestern Australia, if they are true re-jiresetitatives of the welfare of the State,they on-ght to hick up the U;overnmentin their stand iti connection with thismost imkportant matter.

Mr. Taylor: %Vill South Ausi ralia doher shnre

The MINISTER FOR WVORlKS: Doesthe hon. member thik that SouthI Aus-tralia cares twoiwuce about the railway?I do not think lie does. So long asSouth Australia can get her Northernline and get her Northern Territory takenover by the Commonwealth iii order thatshe might be relieved of this grTeat in-eubus. this losing railwa 'y system, Shewill care little about our line. .Aud inthe Bill she will not only grive uip therailway system oif the N.orthern Terri-tory but the Commonwealth undertakesto take off her hands the railway to PortAugusta, which represents some two mil-lions of money, and also take over thetelegraph lines through the Northern Ter-ritovy-t4ake over, in fact, all the bad"specs" of the South Australian Govern-ment. In the circumstances, can it beexpected that South Australia wouldcare twopence about the construction ofthe TLraiis-Australian railway ? Andthis, surely, is in support of my argu-ment that once that railway system is In-stalled, if we do not fight for WesternAustralian interests the iiext thiiig willbe the running of the mail boats aroundthe Northern coast. Thte miasses of theEastern States are going to be lookedafter first. In the words of the PrimeMinister, and I thank him for his frankdeclaration, the construvction of thisTrans-Australian railway is part of thieprogramme of his Administration: Yethie is going to undertake the duty thatcomes first end is nearest to hand. Theduty nearest to his hiaid is the duty toEastern Australia. and the developmentthat is going to take place first is the de-velopment which will isolate WesternAustralia ten times be yond the isolationwhich exists at the present time.

Mr. Scaddan: Seeing that you knowthat South Australia will not undertakeher share in constructing the Trans-

Australian railway, why this paragraphin His Excellency's Speech?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Theparagraph -states a fact. It states thatWestern Australia has entered into nego-tiations with South Australia.

Mr. O'Loghlen: Put a test motion be-fore the House.

The MINISTrER FOR WORKS: Iam prepared to make the construction ofthe Trans-Ansiralian railway a testquestion at tie next elections. I amquite willing to let the State as a wholedecide it at the next elections. May Ibe permitted to say briefly that I depre-eate the evident desire of some membersto cast. s.hall I say, contempt, onl theefforts% the Premier made on behalf ofthe State during his recent visit toLondon. Now, I think it is fitting thatwe. as members of this Chamber, shouldgive credit to whlom credit is due, and Irealise that the Premier worked like agalley slave from the time he left theshores of Western Australia until theclay lie returned. He worked hard forthe State while in England, and the veryfact that lie "-as so well received goes toprove Ids ability in the advocacy of theinterests of Western Australia. Whyshould the member for Albany, for in-stance, say that the Premier had gainedan lioaotu- at the expense of the country?Why, bless my heart and soul, .if thePremier could not do more good for thecountry than could possibly be repre-sented by the paltry sum spent on Isv-wit-if Aye could not secure the returnof at least £1I,000 for every' tellpounds sit spent, I should say histime was wasted and he had betterhave stopped at home. Bat I amsatisfied that he has done excellent work.I an) satisfied rthe result has been alreadyof great benefit to Western Australia inrthe number of people that have come tosettle onl our auds, and I am satisfiedthat the benefi still to -acenie to WesternAustralia is going to be--

Mr. Johnson: The tramway coni-Jiany is getting it to-day in the shape ofimmig-rant "black-legs."

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Ho4wunfair the hon. member is. He has the

3S9

Q17 AUGaUST, 1910.] 5

audacity to say that "black-legs" aregoing to work onl the trains, when heknows that his own members have severedtheir connection with the company andwithdrawu their deposits.

Mr. Seaddaii: "Scabs" are going towork.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS:What right has the lion, member to useso objectionable a term as "scabs"? Af-ter the member for Guildford has drawnhis own men off andi dispersed them, areno others to have the right to acceptemployment f romt the company? floes thelion, member want to coerce every one4us into a trades union, so that we may beled by the nose by the member for Guild-ford, who has been the adviser of thesemen right through? Now, as the hion.member has not been successful, as hisadvice has been wrong, according to thosewhose duty it has been to review it--

Mr. Brown: He speaks feelingly now,seeing that his job as secretary has cometo an end.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Oh,I was not aware of that. In that ease,of course, I wvill have nothing further tosay on the point. But I object thatthe lion. member should, when hefinds that his advice has been faulty,as testified to by the Judge who beardthe case--

Mr. 0211: He went out of his; way togive a ruling Onl a question not beforehin.

An incident.Mr. SPEAKER: The member for

Balkatta has reflected on a Judge of theSupreme Court; he must withdraw.

lMr. Holman: He stated a fact.Mr. Gill: I simply said tile Judge

gave an opinion on a question he was notasked to deal with.

Mr. SPEAKER: The lion. memberdistinctly said the Judge went out of hisway. I ask the lion, member to withdraw.This is done in conformity with the rulesof the House, anid I am going to admin-ister them.

11r. Taylot : May I p)oint out that thehon. member was dealing witbh the Presi-dent of the Arbitration Court.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am sure the hon.mnember will withdraw. It is distinctlylaid down in our rules that no reflectionshall be wade on the Judges.

Mr. Bath: I Ltnderstand that preciselythe same statement was made in a jour-nal which appeared this afternoon.There is ito reflection contained in theremark that a Judge has given anOpiionl.

Mr. Jacohy: Let the Speaker settle it.Mr. SPEAKER: Thle lion. niember

said the Judge went out of his way.Mr. Bath: Well, if a Judge gives an

opinion iii a case which is not affected,lie is going out of his way. and it is aplain statement of fact rather than areflection. Therefore I submit the hion.member should not be called upon towithdraw it.

Mr. SPEAKER: It was distinctly areflection on a Judge of the SupremneConurt to say hie went out of his way togive a certain ruling. Our rules providethat the Judges shall not be reflected onlin this Chamber, and I ask that the re-mark he withdrawn.

Mr. Holman: Onl the point of ordo-rraisedl by Mr. Bath, who referred to thepublicaitioni to-day of die negotiationsentered into between an individual andthe tramway companyv to show why theycouild not run the tramns. That ease washeard merely on affidavits. Thle publi-cation referred to is as follows:-

During thle progress of these nego-tiations the action of McPherson versusthe company was heard in the SupremeCourt when Mr. Justice MeMillan ingiving judgment for the defendantcomnpanv declared that the men werestrikers, adding that the Act whichmade striking an offence ought eitherbe struck off the statute-hook or heen forced.

That ease was never heard before theCourt. No evidence was heard in cont-nection with that case, and no Judge hasthe right to condemn men, and declarethem to be strikers, unheard.

Mr. -Murphy: On the point of order.I heard the remarks of the lion, member.I do not think he intended to reflect at allupon the Judge concerned, Bitt I also

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think that if his interjection bore thatimpression, not only to you, Sir, but toally other member of the House who islikely to take an objection to it. the lion.

member i-4 fair-minded enough to with-dhaw the expression.

M[r. Troy: 1 feel a little concernedabout this, because I remember that onne Oecagion I also made some remarkshere regarding a Jludge of the Arbitra-tion Court and you, Sir, were goodenough to tell me personally that my -,e-mark., were almost unparliamentary. Iwant specially to thank you, because youtold me this personally outside the Chain-bet. But I would like you to read theStanding Order which does not permitmembers to critlii a Judge. Becausethere have been many occasions in his-ton of Judges acting wrongfully. Wedo not stand up to justify the acts ofJudge Jeffej-ics. May I ask you to readthat 'Standing Order for the guidance ofthe Honse.

Mr. SPEAKER: I - am perfectlyfamiliar with the Standing Order. I amsure if the lion, member did not meanhis remark in the sense in which I under-stood it, namely, as; a reflection, he willsay so; but that is the construction I puton his words, namely, that a Judge wentout of his way to do a wrong act. Weare all human and therefore likely to err,and I am not desirous that the hen. mem-her should withdraw something he didnot mean to convey.

Mlr. Scaddan: The lion, member didijot say that the Judge went out of hisway to give a judgment; lie said "to ex-press an olnloii on a question about whichlie was not asked." Any Judge might dothat, and any" member might remark uponit without reflecting on the honour of theJudge or- his ability on the bench.

The Premier: The lion member whomnade the remark in question is about thelast member in the Chamiber to say any-tihing which would tend- to reflect onthe House in any way: and I feel surethat in, deference to your statement thatyou were under the impression lie in-tended to convey another meaning he willexpress himself to that effect.

Mr. Gill: I do not know how iion.members took my remarks. I made them,but they were not intended as a reflec-tion at all.

Resumed.The MIHJSTER FOR WORKS: In

conclusion let lie say that the Govern-ment do not profess to control the ele-ments and the harvests as has been sug-gested by some speakers, more especiallyby the member for Kalgoorlie. We do,however, ask members to believe that thepolicy that has been initiated and cardiedout with their support in this Parliamenthas, at least achieved these beneficial re-sults which all along were prophesied forthat policy by the Administration. Wedo ask members to believe that the inm-pr-ovement in the financial condition ofthe State is due in a very marked de-gree to the policy which has been inau-gurated, and that the near fututre willshow the land settlement policy, togetherwith the provision for railway facilitiesin our goldfields areas, to be beatingthose fruits which one looked for in thedays of depression in the State. I amhappy, indeed, to think that the Statehas at last turned the corner, that ourfinances are on the up-grade, that re-rnunerative employment is to be foundanywhere in Western Australia by anyonewishing to find it, and that we may lookforward to a continuation of those pros-perous times which have now set in, Ihope, for many years to come.

Mr. MURPHY (in reply) : In clsim-ilg my right to reply I do not intend totake up many minutes. I was quite pre-piared to forego my right had it not teenfor what I consider the very unfair andp)ersonal references made to me by atleaqt one or two members during thisdebate. Before I deal with these re-marks 'nay I he permitted to briefly con-_ ratulate the member for Ivanhoe on hiselection to the veey high and responsibleposition he fills? I believe it was themember for Kalgoorlie who said that,.after the position held by the Premier asleader of the Government, there is nopositin in the House so responsible orso worthy of recognition as the one thehion. member now holds. I suppose all

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Of us Must recognise what the presenceof a strong Opposition is to the goodgovernment of any eountry, and also thegreat p~art in the good govemernt ofany country the leader of the Oppositioninvariably plays; and although it is not.a new idea as far as one State of Aus-tr-alia iS concerned, I would like it to henew as far as actual practice in thisSRtate is concerned that some financialLrecompense should be made to the occu-pant of that position over and above themiserable pittance lie is now paid as an-ordinary member of Parliament. I againcongratulate the hion. member, and I hopehe will be spared many, many years torender good service in the position henow occupies. During this debate everymember who felt called on to refer to mepersonall-y and to the recent Fremantleelection has done so, with one exception,in terms of friendly criticism. I admitthe language was severe, but the smile onthe fate of the bon. member has been sogenial that any sting in the language hasbeen taken out. It remained, however,for the member for East Fremantle tointroduce something of a decidedly un-fair and grossly personal character.

Air. Angwin: But the truth.Mr. MI71RPHY: Well, I will deal with

the truth. This hon. gentleman. thisvery consistent politician, this gentlemanwho has never for one moment deviateda hair's breadth from the pledge givento his party when they elected 1dm, stoodup and pointed out my inconsistency asregards some statements I made when Iwas mayor of Fremantle, and said thathad he made statements of that characterlie would have been ashamed to have,stood in the House and supported theGJovernment with the language I usedwhen moving the Address-in-Reply.What was the charge? The hon. mem-ber read several things out of the filesof the West Australian, something abouta quotation I once made use of, one ofLord Rosebery's quotations. Anotherextract he used was some remark thatwe were not being dealt with fairly bythe Government when they reduced ournmunicipal subsidy on the one hand andon the other hand took away from us, inconjunction with all municipal bodies in

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the State1 a right we enjoyed for manyy-ears, that is the tit to half the police'ouirt lines. But the greatest of allcharges against me was that I said whileI was mayor of Fremanitle that the ne-glect of the town by the Government dur-ing the last few years hiad been to thedetriment of Fremantle. And thon thehon. gentleman stnick a most dramaticattitude, "Fancy an hon. member whomade these remarks only a, few monthsago now supporting the Government!"When I made those remarks T made thembecause I conscientiously believed themto he true. It will surprise the bon.member that from my place in the House,and] supporting the Government, I saynow I still believe them to be true, thatneither from this Government nor fromany preceding- Government has Fremantlereceived what she has a right to expectin return for what I call a cruel, an un-just, and an intended deadly blow thatthe Forrest Government gave her whenthey took the workshops from there anddumped them down on the swamps atMidland Junction.

Air. Otoghien: Roads and bridgesCannot get above it !

Mr. 'MURPHY: The hon. member gotin by roads anid bridges. is here 'by roadsand bridges, and will be of no use wbenroads and bridges are taken away- Theparticular portion of Fremantle I havenow the honour to represent has, with onesolitary exception, always returned a sup-porter to this side of the House. And Iwas sent here as a supporter of iwbatlNot of the personnel of this Government.but of their policy. It was expected fromme when I was eeted by the people ofFremantle what the Ministry, or any sec-tion of the House, will always find meprepared to do, that I should render afight when I think the interests of Fre-mantle are being assailed. However,whether I am guilty of inconsistency ornot, the charge of inconsistency couldhave Conic With far better grace from anyother member than from the member forEast Fremantle. No member on the Gov-erenment side of the Rouse bas been sofulsome in praise of the policy and per-sonnet of the Government, in season andout of season, as the member for East

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Fremantle has been; but if the whip wasto crack on the Opposition side of theHouse, especially if handled by my friend,MIz. Taylor, the hon, member would provehis consistency by tryiug to displace theGovernment whose praises he so loudlysang. I admit this is only a general state-ment. Let me give one absolute illustra-tion of the lion, member's consistency, oneI know members opposite will appreciate.The member for East Fremantle waselected on, and gave his pledged word tosupport and do all he possibly could tohave put upon the statute-book, everyplank of the Labour party in WesternAustralia, and one of those planks is inregard to the reduction of the franchisefor the Upper House. What did the hon.member do a few mouths ago? We hadan election for the West Province. Thecandidates were the President, Mr. Bigi,who fought his election wholly and solelyopposed to one penny reduction in thefranchise, and Mr. McLaren. the town-treasurer, who fought his election byagreeing to a reduction iii the franchisefrom £25 to £15. Now the member forEast Fremantic, who is so ready to pointout my inconsistency, my opinions that Iexpressed as mayor of Fremnantle. wh~ichto-night I i-e-assert-irhat did he do? Wefinld him so consistenlt to his party and itspolicy that he gave all hli.s influence toMr. Briggs, against the man who wasstanding in the interests of one of theplanks of his Party.

Mr. Angwin: Only a small portion ofit.

Mr. MURPHY: I am always preparedto take, and I think any member of thehon. member's party is prepared to take,a small portion of a policy, time aftertime until the whole thing can be accom-plished.M. Angwin:- Did you not do the same

thing?Mr. 'MURPHY: 1 was chairman of Mr.

Briggs's South Fremantle committee; Ifougbit for Mr. Brig,--; I was proud whenI helped to have him returned; and theknowledge that the member for East Fre-mantle, in his own particular electorate,was on the same side of the fight as T wasonly conveyed to me the same satisfaction

as would be conveyed to a general of anarmy who knows that stme traitor hscome from the other side to help him. Weaccepted the service; we despised thegiver.

MN~r. Walker: Freman tie is divided.Mr. MURPHY: Just about time. Dur-

in- the remarks of the bon. member thePremier interjected to tile effect that per-lisps I was making the remarks when.mayor of Fremantle, because I was look-ing for a job. It appears to me that nomatter what side of the House I mightbe on I would still have been looking fora job if L had not found one for myself.That is all I wish to say as regards thehon. membler for East Fremantle. Turn-ing for a few moments to the speech ofthe member for Kalgoorlie, a speechwhich was delivered with great eloquence,and the most perfect grace of posture, aspeeh which took one hour and three-quarters to deliver, and contained nothingbut most unfair criticism of the presentGovernment, I would point out that whenthe present Government took office themember for Kalgoorlie was, and remainedup to a few months ago, a member of it.Not every member of the House is enl-dowed with the great inteliigence the mem-ber for Kalgoorlie possesses in such avery marked degree; not every memberhas had the advantage of such a higheducation, and such a professional train-ing as he, and such knowledge tells very-much in a debate of this character, butfor that gentleman to indulge in chieapsneering and rude remarks about the"miik and water" utterances of othermembers was beneath his dignity either asa barrister, a member of this House, oranl ex-Minister of the Crown. I have yetto know whether, when all is said anddone, the brain and not the tonguLe doesnot tell most in the good government of acountry; I have yet to know that the poor-est debater in this House, the memberwho may find it most difficult to conveyin words the thoughts his brain con-ceives, is not as a legisiator of as muchlvalue to the State as the member for Kal-e'oorlie. or any other member similiirlygifted. It waL; an interesting study dur-ing that boutc Qnd three-quatters to sit onthis side of the Houise and wa-tch the

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occupants of thle benches opposite. Everyface was, turned in the direction of thehon. member for Kalgoorlie. Every Op-position member listened to each word heuttered with the most wrapt attention.Any remark made which they thought toldagainst this side was received either withlaughter or cheers, and members oppositereeognised that in the hon. member theyhad one who, in expressing an opinionagainst the Government, conveyed thatopinion in a better way than they couldhave done in, what that hon. miembercalled, their "milk and water" fashion.While, however, they enjoyed that mem-ber's criticism of the Government theyMust also remember that he was a criticof their side. The member for Kalgoorliegave his opinion of the only Labour Gov-ernment that ever has had the honour tosit on this side of the House, and brieflyhis opinion was that the Labour Govern-ment never had any right to be there, thatthey had remained in office longer thanthey were entitled to, that one of the rea-sons for their clinging on to office wasbecause of the emoluments their sup-porters were receiving from the RoyalCommissions appointed during their termof office. That is his opinion of the La-bour Government. He suggested thatwhen they had gone to the country theyhad not gone willingly and would nothave gone had they not been kicked theme.The most conservative and biased memberin this House does not believe that thoseopinions are true. So far as I am con-cerned, and I believe I am speaking onbehalf of the majority of members on thisside of the House, I may say that, differas we may as to the policy or the methodsadopted by the party opposite, I amuttering a simple truth without trying toflatter, when T say that during the termof office of the Labour Government theirconduct was actuated by as pure and hon-ourahlc motives for the good of the wholecommunity as any other Government whopreceded them, and the same remarks willapply if in the future a Labour Govern-ment again get into power. For a mem-ber to make f he speech the member for*Kalgoorlie did in Kalzoorlie. the speech~whirh broughlt abouit his election and thedefeat of the preoent lion. rrn mp beir for

Guild'ford, a speech in which he madecharges be must have known as an boa-ourahle man to he untrue, is hardly thesort of thing one would expect f rom aman whose statements bon. renters op-posite were so ready the other nigzht toaccept.

Mr. Walker: He is on your side; Rotours.

Mr. MURPHY: I do not think be is.I believe lie started at this end of theTreasury bench, and gradually driftedto the cross benches, and I believe theonly difficulty that exists abont his goingover to the other side of the House is thatthey would not have him there if he went.I see no hope for the member for Kal-goorlie $tat to make a little party of hisown in -the gangway.

Mr. Troy :Have you no recollectionof other politicians having somersaulted?

Mr. MURPHY: I have heard of onenamed Ferguson-one of the BrokenHill strike leaders-who somersaulted.You do not call it a somersault that themember for Kanowna took.

Mr. Walker: Where was my somer-sault ? Did I take a somersault?

Mr. MURPHY- Oh, none at all, ab-soIlutely no somersault. Yout call it asomersault when a man leaves your partyand goes to another, but it is all rightwhen be tgoes to your party.

Mr. Holmn: What about the Attor-ney General'?

Mr. MURPHY: The member for Kai-goorlie paid mue marked attention in hisspeech, and made special reference to myelection. He congratulated me on thefact that T had been elected, btat qualifiedthat in a very marked degree. He saidthe experience I had to undergo in con-nection with that election, and the oneimmediately preceding it, was of such acharacter that I would not care to under-go it again. He went on to point outthat two Ministers had gone to Fremantlefor the express purpose of damning meout of existence, but had remained toshower blessings on my head. Then tos;how his knowledge of the Bible, and toillustrate his meaning, he said that the

-onlr similar instance recorded in historywas something to do with a relative of

A6i. called Balaam, who bad come to curse

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and remained to bless. All I have to sayis that Balaan's example and actionswere far more honourable, far moremanly, than the example of the memberfor Kalgoorlie who came into this Houseon this side to bless and remained longenoutgh to curse the party he was electedto support. When he found he differedso much from the Government and theirpolicy that he 'was compelled to makethe speech he made the other night, itwas his duty to go to the electors of Kal-goorlie and say that he had been electedto the wrong party, and in fact that heshould not have been the man chosen atall, but that Mr. Johnson should havebeen elected.

Air. Bath'? Will the hon. member tellus this--

Mr. MURPHY: Yes; tell you any-thing for your edification.

Mr. Bath: Will the hon. member teDus the exact relationship of the memberfor Kalgoorlie to the Government f

Mr. UURPHY: The hon. member canmake uip any relationship he likes. Agreat deal has been said during the courseof the debate owing to the fact that Iwas finally selected as the Ministerialcandidate for the Fremantle election, andduring the debate that election receiveda prominence it is in no wise entitled to.Had there not been so much criticism,it would not have received any notice atall, but the reason why there has beenso much criticism is that even the mem-her for North Fremantle would ratherhave run his candidate against Mr. Lynnthan against your humble servant.

Mr. Bolton: I would run againsteither of you .

Mr. MURPHY: But the hon. memberwould rather have run against both of usthan against one. I would just like to re-count what actually took place in con-nection with that election. Twenty-fourhours beore the day of nomination -I wasnot certain whether I would nominate ornot.

Mr. Scaddan: You had a fair idea.

Mr. 'MURPHY: The people of Fre-mantle know the position exactly, and

are aware that certain matters mighthave eventuated at any m6 ment to keepout my nomination. The moment thewrit was isued Mr. Lynn announcedhimself as a Government supporter. Henaturally did what I or anyone elsewould do, and that was he went and sawthe members of the Government and triedto get their support for his candidate.I have Mr. Lynn's authority to say thatthe only promise he got from the Gov-ernment was that they would supportthe man finally selected as the Govern-ment candidate.

Mx. Scaddan:- Selected by whom?Mr. George: You are letting- out ill

the secrets.

Mr. Holnan: Do not 'put the organi-ser away.

Mr. MURLPHY: He was not there.I know I am somewhat labouring thismatter, bitt I would like to put it straight,so far as the connection of the membhersof the Ministry with the election is con-cerned.

Mr. Troy: The action needs an ex-planation.

Mr. AMPHY: Probably, but not somuch as some of the actions of the hon.member. Two other gentlemen had comeinto that contest and retired in favoorof Mr. Lynn. When 1 announced mycandidature the night before, neigotia-tions were immediately entered into be-tween miy committee and 11r. Lynn'scommittee to see who had the best chance.At noon on the day of the nominationno finality having been reached, both ofus deposited our £25.

Mr, Taylor: Then Grenike wentdown. I

Mr. MIURPHY: Grenike bad nothingat all to do with it. Any-way, whenfinality was reached, as the Minister forWorks has stated bo-night, he knew nitleast two hours before he was called uponto leave Perth that I was to be the can-didate, and if he wished to damn me hehad no reason to go to Fremnantle. I donot see a face on the Opposition benchesthat I did not recognise at Fremantle inthe attempt that was made to keep meout of the House.

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:isy(23 AUGUST, 1910.1

Mr. Taylor: You never saw me there.Mr. MUfRPHY: I saw the hon. mew-

'ber there; lie did not speak, but be gotill Sonme qu1iet engineering work.

Mr. Troy: Will the lion, member ex-plain his association with the licensedv'ictuallers who claimed him as their-direct candidate 9

Mr. MURPHY: 1 absolutely givethat a denial; and if any hon. member.Can prove that T am the direct representa-tive of the Licensed Vietuallers' Asso-,ciation in this House F. will resign to-morrow.

Mr. Taylor: Thley say ;o.Mrt. MURPHY: They do not say so;

if they do I give it a denial here.Mr. Bolton; It will be read out from

their own Gazette.Mr. M1URPHTY: 1 do not take their

Gazette. The hon. member must be atbetter customer of theirs than I am if hereads their Gazette. I have nothing mooreto say except to move the adoption ofthe Address-in-Reply.

Question put and passed; the Address-adopted.

AflJOURN'ME1,NT-RAIlWAY OPEN-[NO, MEEKATHA&RA.

The 1PREMIER (Sir Newton ..Moore): I move-

That the House at its rising adjoitrnuntil 4.30 p.m. on Tuesday fleet.

Mr. HEITMANN (Cue) : 1 certainlythink anl explanation is due to rte Housefor the adjournment over to-morrow. fcaninot. see the necessity. even though anumber ci' members are going away, totake partq ini a function connected withthe opening- of 20 miles of railway, forthe House to mniss one sitting.

Mr. TAYIOR (Mit. M,%argaret): Ithink the member for Cue, if he looksinto the matter, will realise that a num-ber of mnembers -are goning- away to-mor-row afternoon to take part in the tune-tionl connw'ted with tile opening of therailway to IMeekatharra, and as the nestbusiness onl tite Notice Paper consists v-fmotiag Secotnd readings of Bills it is wellthat all members should be present.That is my reason for not opposing the

[161

mnotion for the adjournment untilTuesday.

Question pitt and passed,

House adjourned at 9.50 p.m.

Tuesday, 23rd August, 1910.

ilection return, Bleverley .. ..Papers presented..........lUnienoy motion, Pertb Tramway TroubleFniviiee Smmises served on Members

PAUna

...a4W

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30p.mi.. and read prayers.

ELE CTION RETJRN-BEVERLEBY.T he Clerk announced the return of

Writ for the election of a member forBevrecy showiiig that Mr. N. WV. Harperhad been dittyv elected.

MrV. Harper took and Subscribed thetiatli aind signed Ih lieemers' roll.

PAP EiRS PRESENTEDBy thle Minister for Mines: Papen, in

t'onnectiou with the Collie Coal MinesAccident Relief Fund (ordered on mo-tion by 'Mr. A. -A. Wilson).-

(U1RU EN('V 1OTION-PERTH TRAM2-WAY TROUB LE.

Mr. SPEAKER: I have received from44~. Scaddan the following notice of mo-tion for the adjournment of the House.which I shall first i-ead and then submitto the House in accordance with StandingOrder 47 :-"Tl desire to mnove the ad-jouriiment of the Honse in order to drawattention to the conduct of the authioritiesin the present tramway trouble."

Seven members havingv risen in their