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TRANSCRIPT
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BOARD OF INQUIRY
Basin Bridge Proposal
HEARING at
BASIN RESERVE, MT COOK, WELLINGTON
on 5 May 2014
BOARD OF INQUIRY:
Retired Environment and District Court Judge Gordon Whiting (Chairperson)
James Baines (Board Member)
David Collins (Board Member)
David McMahon (Board Member)
Page 5986
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
APPEARANCES
<GORDON FRANK SANDERSON, affirmed [9.42 am] ........................ 5988
<HARRY RICKETTS, affirmed [9.42 am] .............................................. 5988
<DONALD NEELY, affirmed [9.42 am] ................................................... 5988 5
<JOHN ANDERSON, sworn [9.43 am] ..................................................... 5988
<MARTIN COLIN SNEDDEN, sworn [9.43 am] .................................... 5988
<PETER CLINTON, affirmed [9.43 am] .................................................. 5988
<EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [9.49 am] ........................ 5990
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [10.40 am] ................. 6009 10
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [11.32 am] ........ 6020
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SNEDDEN [11.38 am] .......... 6023
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR SANDERSON [11.50 pm] ..... 6027
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [12.15 pm] ................. 6037
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WEDDE [2.32 pm] ................. 6063 15
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [2.38 pm] ................. 6066
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [2.50 pm] ................... 6070
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WEDDE [4.01 pm] ................. 6089
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [4.04 pm] ......... 6091
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [4.12 pm] ................... 6094 20
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WEDDE [5.00 pm] ................. 6113
<THE WITNESSES WITHDREW [5.01 pm] .................................. 6114
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Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
[9.38 am]
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, good morning everybody. Welcome back. And
welcome to the array of witnesses on my right. All the witnesses 5
relating to the topic on cricket. Thank you all for coming today. I
know it’s not easy to get everyone together at the same time, but I do
appreciate it.
What we’re doing this morning is we’re going to have what we call a 10
contemporaneous witnessing or as they call it in Australia “hot
tubbing”. Whereby we have all of the witnesses on a particular expert
topic together at the same time and we have a set of topics that we’re
going to go through where counsel have sorted out a batting order for
the questions that will be asked on that topic. 15
[9.40 am]
We will come to a topic; say the first topic, which is “Council, the
Trust and the Relationship with the Applicant”. The first person who is 20
going to head off on that one is Mr Jones; he will get up and ask
questions first. He will identify a witness that he is going to ask the
question to and then he will ask that question to that particular witness.
When that witness is finished answering the question if any other of 25
you wish to add something if you just simply move on and perhaps if
you just sort of follow. If you wish to contradict anything then also
you are entitled to do that at the same time.
It means that we have an interaction between the expert witnesses and 30
it saves a lot of time because it means that you don’t have to have one
witness with a whole lot of questions and then another witness, and
then another witness, and each topic being gone over and over again.
Anyway, we will just take it quietly, we’ll be relaxed about it and we 35
take it step by step.
Now, also a number of you have prepared what we call opening
statements. They all arrived on our desk this morning and we haven’t
had an opportunity of reading them all so I’m going to get each one of 40
you who has made an opening statement to read it out.
So the first thing we’ll have to do is to have each of the gentlemen
sworn in, so Madam Registrar, if you could swear them in?
45
Page 5988
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
<GORDON FRANK SANDERSON, affirmed [9.42 am]
<HARRY RICKETTS, affirmed [9.42 am]
<DONALD NEELY, affirmed [9.42 am] 5
<JOHN ANDERSON, sworn [9.43 am]
<MARTIN COLIN SNEDDEN, sworn [9.43 am]
10
<PETER CLINTON, affirmed [9.43 am]
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Now, those of you who have given
opening statements if you could simply – and we’ll start perhaps with
Dr Sanderson this end and then we can just do it one after the other as 15
we go down the table. If you’ve got an opening statement if you could
just, for the purposes of the record, say what your full name is and what
your area of expertise is and then read your opening statement.
MR ……….: I don’t have an opening statement to be honest. 20
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well if you don’t have – that’s fine. If you don’t have
an opening statement if you could for the record again, just state your
name and just say that you haven’t got an opening statement. That’s
fine. 25
MS WEDDE: Excuse me, sir. Just to clarify, Professor Sanderson does have
one short supplementary statement that he may like to read on Friday.
[9.45 am] 30
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see, well then that can be read as well at the same
time. So that will save counsel having to introduce each of you, and
you introduce yourselves and then I’ll ask Mr Jones to – I’ll identify
the topic that he’s going to start cross-examining on. At the end of 35
each question I will indicate if anyone else wishes to add or say
anything relating to the answer given by the other and then we will go
through any other parties or their counsel who wish to ask questions on
that same topic when Mr Jones is finished. So it is all pretty relatively
straightforward. 40
So Professor Sanderson if you could start the ball rolling.
DR SANDERSON: My full name is Gordon Frank Sanderson. I have a
supplementary statement which pertains to a fairly small aspect of my 45
original evidence-in-chief. This supplementary evidence provides
Page 5989
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
further information regarding the potential for light to reflect off cars
travelling on the proposed Basin Bridge and cause visual distraction to
cricket players within the Basin Reserve.
As mentioned in my evidence-in-chief in paragraph 3.6 I consider that 5
this may cause a transient visual distraction. However, I elaborate
further as follows:
(a) While a car windscreen or side window is made of glass it is not a
mirror and only a very small percentage, approximately 10 percent, of 10
the light which strikes its surface is reflected. Any reflection will be
further attenuated by the condition of the surface, a cleaner surface
providing the greater reflection.
(b) Further, the surface of the side window or windscreen in a car or 15
similar vehicle is generally curved. This has the effect of making it
behave as a “convex mirror”. Light rays from the sun or any other light
source will diverge when they strike the window and disperse in
proportion to the distance of the observer from the window.
20
(c) I observe that a batsman at the southern end of the pitch will be at
least 100 metres from the side window or windscreen. At this distance
the dispersion effect will be considerable. Fielders who face the Bridge
will generally be at a further distance where the dispersion effect would
be even greater. It is therefore my opinion that any reflection from cars 25
on the Basin Bridge will be transient and highly attenuated. I conclude
that the risk of visual distraction from this source is negligible.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, and if you could read your summary of
evidence or opening statement. 30
DR SANDERSON: Certainly.
MS WEDDE: Sorry, just to ensure we are not at cross purposes,
Professor Sanderson did not prepare a summary of evidence and his 35
original evidence was already quite concise.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so this is just his original evidence?
MS WEDDE: So what he has just read is his supplementary statement which 40
was filed on Friday and in addition to that he has filed his evidence-in-
chief and rebuttal evidence but he didn’t file a separate summary of
evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, fine, thank you. Yes, very well, so we will move on 45
to the next person.
Page 5990
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
DR RICKETTS: Hello, I am Professor Harry Ricketts from the English
programme at Victoria University and I am a cricket enthusiast and a
write and I am going to read you an eight line poem as my brief about
the Basin. 5
CHAIRPERSON: Well, I can tell you, Professor, that will be a delight after
listening to transport evidence for some weeks.
DR RICKETTS: So it is called - - - 10
CHAIRPERSON: It is a lot better than looking at intersection capacities and
volumes.
DR RICKETTS: Thank you. So it is “Wellington Basin Reserve, late summer 15
2014”.
On the bank at the Basin the crowd applauds;
cicadas click-click their castanets,
Listen to the money’s slow, withdrawing roar. 20
On the bank at the Basin the crowd applauds. ‘
“Wellington is a city that’s dying”,
says the man with cold snapper eyes.
On the bank of the Basin the crowd applauds;
cicadas click-click their castanets. 25
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, professor. Mr Neely.
30
MR NEELY: My name is Donald Owen Neely and I am providing evidence
on behalf of the Basin Reserve Trust.
MS JONES: Mr Neely had a couple of questions to his evidence-in-chief.
35
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MS JONES: If my friend doesn’t object to leading, it might just be easier to
take you directly to the paragraphs.
40
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of course.
<EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [9.49 am]
MS ANDERSON: Mr Neely, I think you had four corrections to make in your 45
original evidence-in-chief.
Page 5991
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR NEELY: Yes.
MS ANDERSON: If you could just take us through them I think your first
one is at paragraph 1.4 of your evidence-in-chief. 5
MR NEELY: Central to the Basin Reserve historic - - -
[9.50 am]
10
MS ANDERSON: Sorry, this is your evidence-in-chief, not your summary
brief. That is not what I have in front of me from last Friday.
MS ANDERSON: Yes, but do you have your evidence-in-chief with you?
15
Madam Registrar I wonder if this could be handed to Mr Neely so he
has a copy of his evidence-in-chief.
MR NEELY: Thank you.
20
MS ANDERSON: So paragraph 1.4B. If you could just deal with what you
wanted to correct in that. I understand the date is wrong in sub
paragraph 3?
MR NEELY: Sub paragraph 3, yes. It should be – “The first 50 tests was 25
2010”, not 2003.
MS ANDERSON: Thank you. And if we move to page 8, - - -
MR NEELY: Yes. 30
MS ANDERSON: I think you had a correction there in relation to the 1976
date.
MR NEELY: Yes, the 1976 dated should be 1978. 35
MS ANDERSON: That is the second row down is it, on that page?
MR NEELY: On page 8 there are two 1976s, it is the second one, February.
40
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you take me back to the previous one, Ms
Anderson?
MS ANDERSON: Paragraph 1.4B.3, instead of 2003, it should have been
2010. 45
Page 5992
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
Then page 8 was the 1976 date and then if we go to page 11, paragraph
1.27B - - -
CHAIRPERSON: 11, 1.27?
5
MS ANDERSON: Yes, sub paragraph B.
CHAIRPERSON: B. B or C?
MS ANDERSON: B. 10
CHAIRPERSON: B, thank you.
MR NEELY: “…is a world class test cricket ground the premier test cricket
ground in New Zealand, and recognised worldwide as a top test 15
venue.”
MS ANDERSON: If we could just go the end of that paragraph, the sentence
starting, “Further…
20
MR NEELY: “Further the ability to circumnavigate the boundary on the
promenade around the playing field is, as far as I am aware, a unique
and noteworthy feature.”
MS ANDERSON: So ‘parade’ should be replaced with ‘promenade.’ 25
MR NEELY: Promenade.
MS ANDERSON: And the last one is paragraph 1.29, again sub paragraph.
30
MR NEELY: “The Basin Reserve’s promenade allows free navigation of the
ground. Your entrance ticket into the Basin allows you to sit almost
anywhere within the ground and move locations at will.”
MS ANDERSON: Thank you. Parade should be changed to promenade. 35
MR NEELY: Promenade.
MS ANDERSON: Thank you and if you could just start reading your
summary. 40
MR NEELY: Central to the Basin Reserve’s historical and cultural
importance, is its status as New Zealand’s premier test cricket ground.
The reason why the Basin Reserve is New Zealand’s premier test
cricket ground are because of its history, its amenity both for players 45
Page 5993
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
and spectators and its cultural significance as the green heart of the
city.
The Basin Reserve’s unique character and attractiveness, can be
evidenced by comparison with other world class test cricket grounds. 5
From this comparison, it is evidence that no other ground have an issue
with views of moving traffic external to the ground.
Unless properly mitigated, the proposal will introduce the use of
moving traffic into the Basin Reserve. This has the potential to 10
severely damage the attractiveness of the Basin Reserve as a test
cricket ground and disrupt the unique atmosphere of the Basin Reserve.
[9.55 am]
15
This would result in irreparable damage to the historical and cultural
heritage of the Basin Reserve and potentially the death of test match
cricket at the Basin Reserve which would be a tragedy for Wellington
and cricket in New Zealand. Do you want me to go onto the history of
the Basin. 20
MS ANDERSON: Right to the end, thank you.
MR NEELY: Right to the end. History of the Basin Reserve. Paragraph 1.20
of my EIC sets out a summary of the history of the Basin Reserve. I do 25
not propose to replicate in my summary that history except to note the
following key dates.
7.1, 1857: A petition was granted by the Provincial Council to set
aside the swamp as a park and cricket ground. 7.2, 1866: The Basin 30
Reserve was established as the home of Wellington Cricket. 7.3, 11
January 1868: The first cricket match was played between Wellington
volunteers and the men of the HMS Falcon. 7.4, November 1873:
Wellington played its first first-class against Auckland at the Basin
Reserve. 7.5, 1875: The first international game at the Basin Reserve 35
was the game Wellington 22 played against an All England 11. 7.6,
1884: Basin Reserve Deed established that the ground was to be “for
ever used for the purpose of a cricket and recreation ground by the
inhabitants of the city of Wellington.
40
7.7, 1930: The Basin Reserve hosted its first test match against
England becoming the nineteenth test venue in the world. 1945:
Official VE Day celebrations were held at the Basin Reserve. 7.9:
New Zealand after 48 games over 48 years beat England for the first
time. 1979-81: The Basin Reserve underwent its most significant 45
changes in appearance since the 1855 earthquake. 7.11: Martin Crowe
Page 5994
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
and Andrew Jones put on a partnership of 467 runs against Sri Lanka.
This was the highest partnership in test cricket at that time for any
wicket. 7.12, 2005: The formation of the Basin Reserve Trust. 7.13,
2009: The Basin Reserve became the eleventh test venue to reach the
landmark of hosting 50 tests. 7.14, February 2014: Brendan 5
McCullum scored 302 runs for New Zealand against India and became
the first New Zealander to score a triple century in test cricket.
8.0: The first sporting ground in New Zealand registered with the New
Zealand Historic Places Trust, the Basin Reserve. The Basin Reserve 10
is an historic site. It has also been associated with many royal, civic,
sporting and other notable occasions and that story is a miniature
history in itself and offer of the mirror of time. Carry on?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 15
MR NEELY: Comparison with other international grounds. The Basin
Reserve’s primary use and reason for continued existence remains as a
test match and first class cricket ground. Cricket at the Basin Reserve
maintains the history and traditions of the ground, helps to add vitality 20
and a sense of purpose and contributes necessary financing for
maintenance and development of the ground.
[10.00 am]
25
11. As noted in the Cricketer Magazine, set out in appendix 1 of my
EIC, the Basin Reserve is recognised internationally as one of the
10 top test match grounds in the world.
Now there is an appendix which photographs of this article appeared in 30
the Cricketer Magazine, do you want them brought out at this stage?
CHAIRPERSON: No, you don’t need to do that, we have read those thank
you.
35
MR NEELY: You have seen those, thank you.
In my view, the Basin Reserve enjoys such a status because:-
The Basin Reserve has a rich history, it is the oldest first class ground 40
in New Zealand and one of the oldest international cricket grounds still
cited in its original position.
1. 12.2. It is a world class cricket ground. The premier test cricket
ground in New Zealand and recognised worldwide as a top test venue. 45
As opposed to other international test cricket venues that are stadia
Page 5995
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
surrounded by walls of concrete, the Basin Reserve as a boutique feel
to it. The green and enclosed ambience of the ground provided by the
embankment and the trees that separate it from the busy roading around
it, creates an enticing atmosphere from which to watch or play cricket.
5
Further, the ability to circumnavigate the boundary on the promenade
around the playing field is, as far as I am aware, a unique and
noteworthy feature. Players enjoy the atmosphere and spectators are
attracted to watching cricket there.
10
12.3 Its cultural importance. The Basin Reserve is the green heart of
Wellington. It is a notable public space with strong cultural importance
for all Wellingtonians and as a symbol for Wellington. Many
Wellingtonians have been involved in the Basin Reserve through
attending schools, colleges, professional sports events, or the sporting 15
events of their children or through enjoying it as a public space. There
is a widespread sentimental attachment to the Basin Reserve.
A comparison between the Basin Reserve and other international test
match grounds, shown in appendix 6 of my EIC, provides some 20
evidence of the interesting attributes of the Basin Reserve. When
comparing the Basin Reserve with other test grounds, you will see the
following.
Do you want that evidence? 25
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please, thank you.
MR NEELY: But do you want the photographs for it?
30
CHAIRPERSON: No, no.
MR NEELY: The Basin Reserve has significant green spaces and foliage
which helps create its attractive atmosphere. This can be compared
favourably with some of the other venues that are more traditionally 35
fully enclosed, and I quote, Waikiri (ph. 3.34) Stadium, Eden Gardens
or Melbourne Cricket Ground.
B. The basin Reserve’s promenade allows free navigation of the
ground. Your entrance ticket into the Basin Reserve allows you to sit 40
almost anywhere within the ground and move locations at will.
Other grounds are physically separated to zones that restrict spectator
movement.
45
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Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
C. Despite being surrounded by roading and noting that State Highway
1 has always passed around the Basin Reserve, at present none of the
grounds permit site line views of moving traffic at ground level.
The photographs in appendices 1 and 2 show that although other test 5
grounds are surrounded by roads, these are visually screened from
within the grounds.
Potential impact of the project on the future of the Basin Reserve. 14.
If the proposal was to be constructed without full mitigation, the Basin 10
Reserve would, as far as I am aware, be the only test match ground
where a busy road and traffic located outside of the ground, could be
viewed from the playing surface. I, along with other Friends of the
Basin Reserve, do not object to change per se at the Basin Reserve.
Part of the story of the Basin Reserve has been the process of change of 15
the ground over time rather I object to any change that could adversely
impact the heritage or the identity of the Basin Reserve which
necessarily includes its ongoing operation as a world class cricket
ground.
20
[10.05 am]
16: One of the impacts on the ground should a view of traffic pervade
into it is that spectators could decide to vote with their feet and choose
not to come to games at the Basin Reserve. If a shorter than 65 metre 25
stand or pavilion is constructed there would remain a large area of the
bridge that could be viewed from much of the spectator seating in
particular the southern end of the ground. This seating area is popular
with spectators because it is sheltered when there is southerly wind and
because it is well placed to capture the sun. A view of traffic on the 30
bridge as a backdrop to the cricket being played is likely to diminish
the attractiveness of this area of the ground. Further the view of the
traffic is in my opinion likely to detract from the enclosed feeling of the
ground and therefore from spectator enjoyment. Ultimately the Basin
relies on attracting spectators for its ongoing existence. 35
17: The Basin Reserve would lose its raison d’etre if cricket should
cease to be played there. Without the support of the cricketing
community and the vitality and purpose this brings to the Basin
Reserve it is hard to imagine a future for the ground. Nothing would be 40
sadder for Wellington than to see this important historical and cultural
symbol to become a faded a monument to the past. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Neely. Sir John?
45
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Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS NEELY: Sir John, I understand you have one correction to make to your
evidence in chief. Do you have your evidence in chief with you there?
And it was paragraph 1.15. Under the heading “History of the BRT”.
And the correction there I think relates to the date does it?
5
SIR ANDERSON: Yes, I think so.
CHAIRPERSON: You can lead Ms Anderson.
MS ANDERSON: Should it be 17 October 1884 rather than November? 10
SIR ANDERSON: Yes.
MS ANDERSON: Thank you. If you could start reading your summary from
the beginning. Thank you. 15
SIR ANDERSON: My name is Sir John Anthony Anderson. I’m providing
evidence on behalf of the Basin Reserve Trust. This document is a
concise summary of my evidence of the Basin Bridge proposal. My
qualifications and experience are set out in my evidence in chief dated 20
13 December 2013. My concise summary addresses the following
matters. The history, role and functions of the Trust, engagement with
NZTA in respect of the proposal, ICC requirements for the cricket
grounds.
25
History, role and functions of the Trust. By a deed dated 17 October
1884 the Basin Reserve was conveyed to the Wellington City Council
on trust to forever be used for the purposes of cricket and a recreation
ground by the inhabitants of the City of Wellington.
30
[10.10 am]
SIR ANDERSON: All right?
MR ……….: That’s better. 35
SIR ANDERSON: Okay. In 2005 council and Cricket Wellington established
and registered the Trust under the Charitable Trusts Act 1957. The
Trust was created to manage and administer the Basin Reserve.
40
The objects of the Trust, set out in the 2005 Trust deed, included duty
to manage, administer, plan, develop, maintain, promote and operate
the Basin Reserve for recreational activities and for the playing of
cricket for the benefit of the inhabitants of Wellington.
45
Page 5998
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
In summary, the council owns the Basin Reserve in its capacity as
Trustee under the 1884 Trust deed. The Trust manages the Basin
Reserve and operates the ground in accordance with the 2005 Trust
deed.
5
Background to the Trust’s position on the proposal – The Trust has
been engaged with NZTA since 2011 in respect of the proposal. The
Trust has taken a pragmatic view in that it decided it would not
automatically object to the Basin Bridge provided it could be
sufficiently migrated to ensure the Basin Reserve is not adversely 10
affected.
Any such migration would have to be carried out in the manner
sympathetic to the history and unique character of the Basin Reserve
and would need to be sufficient to adequately screen the bridge from 15
the ground in order to both preserve the ground’s character and ensure
that it is able to retain its international test match and first class cricket
status.
It reached agreement with NZTA whereby the parties agree that the 65 20
metre Northern Gateway Bridge is necessary to avoid, remedy or
mitigate the potential adverse effects of the proposal on the Basin
Reserve, including the potential loss of its test match status.
The Trust, council and NZTA entered into a memorandum of 25
understanding dated 28 March 2013. This MOU set out the basis on
which the parties could work together to fulfil the respective objectives
in respect of the Basin Reserve thus ensuring the adverse effects of the
bridge were adequately mitigated.
30
As set out in its submission the Trust’s view is visual mitigation from
all areas of the Basin Reserve playing surface is required to 12.1 (ph
2.45) Prevent visual distraction of cricket players and other sports
people that could be caused by moving traffic on the bridge; prevent
loss of spectator enjoyment; protect the Basin Reserve from the risk of 35
losing its test match status; prevent the loss of character and ambience
of the ground including when it comes to attracting events other than
cricket, such as concerts and other sporting codes.
On 18 November 2013 the Trust, council and NZTA reached an 40
agreement over the division of costs in the construction of the Northern
Gateway Building. The parties to the agreement acknowledged that the
final form of the mitigation will be decided by the Board on the basis of
evidence provided and having regard to what is reasonably necessary to
avoid, remedy or mitigate the proposal’s adverse effects on the Basin 45
Reserve.
Page 5999
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
ICC Requirements – In 1997 the ICC initiated a venue accreditation
policy in line with the ICC stated strategic priority of providing a world
class environment for international cricket, an important element of
which is to ensure that venues of the highest possible standard are 5
presented for international matches. The accreditation policy sets out
mandatory minimum requirements for venues that host men’s tests, one
day and Twenty20 internationals.
At the time of the introduction of the accreditation policy the Basin 10
Reserve was automatically accredited, as was any ground that had
hosted a men’s international test or one day match prior to that date.
Once accredited there is no requirement for a ground to be re-
accredited unless it has not hosted a men’s international match within 15
the last five years or has undergone a major renovation.
When the cumulative effect of the Northern Gateway Building, the
transfer of the CS Dempster Gate and the landscaping around the Basin
Reserve, together with the construction of the Basin Bridge and 20
associated buildings is considered the proposal would likely be
considered a major renovation.
[10.15 am]
25
The accreditation policy provides some measures must be taken to
minimise the views of players being interrupted, which may not be the
case if the suggested 65 mitigation option is not accepted.
Although there are subjective elements to the accreditation process and 30
therefore the result is difficult to pre-determine there is a risk that
should the proposal proceed with a Northern Gateway bridge of a
length less than 65 metres the Basin Reserve may not retain its ICC test
match accreditation.
35
At present no traffic can be viewed by players at the Basin Reserve.
Without sufficient mitigation of the proposal the traffic on the bridge
will be viewable as a backdrop and a potential distraction for cricket
players. To my knowledge this issue of traffic being able to be viewed
from the playing surface will be unique in the major test match venues. 40
In summary, the approval of the proposal without sufficient mitigation
runs a small but very real risk of the ICC status of New Zealand’s
premier test ground being taken away.
45
Page 6000
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
In my opinion a 65 metre Northern Gateway Building, as set out in the
application, is necessary to avoid, remedy or mitigate the adverse
effects of the proposal on the Basin Reserve.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Sir John. 5
SIR ANDERSON: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Snedden?
10
MS ANDERSON: Mr Snedden, I gather you have three corrections to make.
If we could start with paragraph 1.4 in your evidence-in-chief,
paragraph A?
MR SNEDDEN: If the - - - 15
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph?
MR SNEDDEN: This is the evidence-in-chief.
20
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR SNEDDEN: 1.4A. If the final two words, “for Auckland”, to be deleted.
There’s 118 first class matches, that was for a mixture of different
teams, including Auckland. 25
MS ANDERSON: And then paragraph 1.27?
MR SNEDDEN: Actually there’s one over the page on page 2.
30
MS ANDERSON: Oh, sorry, 1.4F actually.
MR SNEDDEN: 1.4F. At the time I did the statement I was Chief Executive
for the Tourism Industry Association. I’ve finished that role, now my
current occupation is Professional Director and Consultant. 35
MS ANDERSON: And then finally 1.23C?
MR SNEDDEN: Just in the final line on page 6 of that, if you delete the
words, “moving in either direction”. I understand it’s a one way 40
flyover.
MS ANDERSON: Thank you. If you could now read your summary.
45
Page 6001
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR SNEDDEN: My name is Martin Colin Snedden. I’m providing evidence
on behalf of the Basin Reserve Trust. This document is a concise
summary of my evidence for the Basin Bridge proposal. My
qualifications and experience are set out in my evidence-in-chief dated
13 December 2013. 5
My summary addresses the effect of the proposal on cricket playing
conditions, including distraction and safety issues for batsmen and
fielders, the player’s voice, the effect of the proposal on the Basin
Reserve. 10
Effect on cricket playing conditions – In my view anything less than a
65 metre Northern Gateway Building extending from the current
player’s pavilion in the west to the concrete toilet block in the east and
fully enclosed on top and bottom stories during matches and events 15
would be insufficient to mitigate the adverse effects of the Basin
Bridge.
In particular, the designs for the 45 metre and 55 metre alternative
options do not extend all the way to the embankment and fail to 20
adequately screen movement of traffic at the eastern end of the
building.
The importance of a batsman’s line of sight – A fundamental part of the
playing of cricket is the acknowledgment and acceptance by all 25
involved that the batsman must be given a fair and reasonable
opportunity to face the bowler’s deliveries without other distractions
impeding him.
The nature of a cricket match makes this especially important because 30
if a batsman is distracted and as a result is dismissed this could affect or
even decide the outcome of a match.
The rules and culture of the game are designed to, as best possible;
avoid any chances of distraction of a batsman. This is why umpires 35
must stay motionless and silent as possible immediately before and at
the point of delivery. Fielders at mid-off and mid-on (whilst being able
to move in with the bowler) must not wave their arms around or try to
create a distraction. Field is closed to the facing batsmen and within the
batsman’s eyesight range must stay still. All the field and team and the 40
umpires must remain silent from the time the bowler is in his run-up
until the ball has been bowled and played.
Page 6002
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
[10.20 am]
The batsman’s line of sight extends far deeper and wider than most
onlookers would imagine. It is not just a line directly behind the
direction from which the ball is coming from, it extends into a 5
reasonably wide “V”, with the wider mouth of the “V” on the
batsman’s offside than onside caused by most batsmen taking a
relatively side-on stance when facing.
There are both left-hand and right-hand batsmen and right-arm and left-10
arm bowlers playing cricket and because bowlers can elect to
significantly change the angle of delivery by how wide on the crease
they bowl from, or by bowling either over the wicket or around the
wicket. The batting line of sight in the area in its totality covers a very
wide arch at the bowler’s end. The pitch used for cricket matches 15
changes from match to match, therefore the totality of the line of sight
of the area within a venue changes accordingly.
Dr Gordon Sanderson, based on my experiences as international
cricketer and official, my view is that the conclusions drawn by Mr 20
Sanderson suggesting that a 40 degree horizontal view is all that is
required to be screened to ensure that a batsman is not distracted by
movement of traffic on a bridge is incorrect.
In my experience, movement can be distracting in the area of a 25
batsman’s field of vision that is much wider than the 40 degree
horizontal view. Although it is true that the more central in the
batsman’s view the movement occurs, the more distracting it is,
movement anywhere within the batsman’s field of vision can be
distracting. For example, a fielder at mid-off is not permitted to wave 30
their arms when a bowler is preparing to deliver the ball despite that the
fielder would be well outside this 40 degree area.
Unless full mitigation is provided, traffic will periodically and
irregularly pass through a batsman’s line of sight in the gap between 35
the Northern Gateway Building and the foliage on the bank. The
sudden appearance of fast moving vehicles against the stationary
background, the sky, will be much more pronounced and distracting in
the sight and continuous movement of a crowd, when viewed from a
distance, which is generally more of a ripple effect like water in the 40
ocean. This is particularly true for the more subdued test match crowds.
As Mr Sanderson notes, “emergency vehicles and sunlight flashes on
windows could exacerbate the distraction potential of traffic
movement”. The knowledge that a distracting element will periodically 45
appear in the corner of your eye exacerbates the effects that this has on
Page 6003
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
you. A batsman will anticipate a distraction occurring, which will play
on a batsman’s mind and make concentration more difficult. This can
be mentally straining for a batsman and would certainly impact on the
batsman’s ability to function to the best of his or her ability during the
course of a long test match innings. 5
The fielding team. The Basin Bridge is also likely to distract fielders
during the game of cricket. Probably the most vulnerable fielding
positions for this are slip fielders in the position for fast bowling. These
are the fielders who stand at an arc next to the wicket keeper in an 10
attempt to take catches resulting from batsmen edging a bowler’s
delivery.
An example of a slip cordon is set out in Figure 1 in Appendix 1 of my
evidence-in-chief. It is not highly unusual for a slip fielder, who has a 15
poor line of sight background to completely the lose sight of a ball edge
by a batsman. Because slip fielders are behind the wicket, they are
attempting to catch a ball which is moving at the same pace, or
sometimes at a faster pace, as a ball faced by a batsman.
20
Slip and gully fielders and potentially the wicket keeper for a left-hand
batsman facing from the southern end would, due to their angle to the
wicket, have the Basin Bridge squarely in their field of vision.
Safety considerations. At around 22.5 centimetres in circumference, a 25
cricket ball is very small. The distance between the batsman and the
bowler at the point of delivery is typically less than 18 metres, the ball
delivered by fast bowlers travels at somewhere between 130 kilometres
and 160 kilometres an hour. Such is the minimal reaction time available
that the batsman must be able to sight the ball as quickly as possible. 30
[10.25 am]
Cricket balls are very hard. Impact on the human body of a fast
moving cricket ball can cause serious injuries or even death. 35
Ewen Chatfield, a former New Zealand test match player, was nearly
killed by being struck by the ball in the temple in a test match in 1974.
On 28 October 2013 a South African club cricketer was killed after
being struck in the head by a cricket ball. Therefore the issue of 40
preventing batsman distraction is not just a matter of the batsman
having the opportunity to succeed for his or her team, it is also very
much a matter of safety. These safety concerns are the very reason
umpires regularly suspend play because of bad light.
45
Page 6004
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
The players’ voice. Potentially more damaging than any officials’
reaction to the Basin Bridge could be international first class players’
objections to playing at the Basin as a result of the effects of the
proposal. The influence for first and international class cricketers is
profound in modern international and first class cricket. Over the last 5
decade or so players worldwide involved in international and first class
cricket found their collective voice in matters relating to the
management of the game.
As the game has moved into professionalism, and the livelihood of its 10
participants depend on their on-field performance, players began to
demand much better venue facilities. One issue players have been
united on is a significant improvement needed to ensure minimal
distraction behind the bowlers arm. Players at international and first
class levels know how vital it is that a facing batsman be able to 15
concentrate on early sighting of the ball without having to contend with
any other distractions in the distance behind the bowler’s arms or
within the batsman’s wider eye trajectory.
As a result the size of sight screens has steadily increased over time and 20
at international and many first class matches the venue managers
engage workers to rope off as much a wider area behind the bowler’s
end to prevent spectator movement.
While I was CEO of New Zealand Cricket (2001-2007) there were 25
many instances every international season where players or umpires
would stop play and refuse to resume until line of sight problems or
perceived problems were rectified. As a result playing facility
standards have risen dramatically right across the cricket world. If
things aren’t right quite often the views of the players hold sway. In 30
my view, and like the movement of members of the crowd, insufficient
mitigation of the Basin Bridge is also an issue that could not quickly or
easily be fixed. Once the reputation of a venue is damaged it is very
difficult to repair. Should international or first class players voice their
concern about playing at the Basin Reserve it could quickly become 35
untenable for New Zealand Cricket and/or Cricket Wellington to
continue to host matches there.
Spectator experience. If insufficiently mitigated the traffic passing on
the Basin Bridge would be able to be viewed from a large area of the 40
spectator seating within the ground. I am not aware of any
international cricket ground where a spectator at ground level will have
a view of moving traffic as a backdrop to the action occurring in the
ground.
45
Page 6005
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
This view of traffic from within the ground will potentially have the
following effects. The Basin Reserve is a unique sports boutique sports
ground. New Zealand Cricket and Cricket Wellington attract spectators
to the Basin Reserve in large part because of the peaceful and relaxed
atmosphere created by having an enclosed green space within the heart 5
of the city. The creation of this relaxing atmosphere is a necessary
requirement for a game that can last up to eight hours in a day for five
days. This is partly why New Zealand Cricket has moved towards
producing boutique test match venues in recent years.
10
Having a view of traffic as a backdrop would negatively impact the
spectator experience and general atmosphere of the Basin Reserve. It
will significantly reduce the attractiveness for spectators and therefore
the attractiveness of hosting test match cricket there. In a time where
many sporting codes are struggling to attract sufficient crowds this 15
could have a severely detrimental impact on visitor numbers and on the
finances of Wellington Cricket, the Basin Reserve Trust and
New Zealand Cricket as a major user of the ground.
Ultimately the Basin Reserve owes its continued existence as a 20
functioning cricket ground to its ability to attract spectators. Any
design of the Northern Gateway Building that fails to fully mitigate the
Basin Reserve puts this at risk. In my view it is likely that an extensive
view of traffic travelling on the Basin Bridge would impact spectator
numbers which could impact on the ongoing viability of the Basin 25
Reserve as a test match ground, especially when other grounds are
vying to catch up to catch a greater share of test match allocation.
[10.30 am]
30
Recent years have seen the emergence of excellent test match venues in
Hamilton, Seddon Park, and Dunedin, University Oval. Soon
Christchurch, Hagley rather than Hadley Park, will joint this group of
contenders for allocation of the four to six test matches played in
New Zealand each summer. 35
The continued status of the Basin Reserve as New Zealand’s premier
test ground, or indeed a test ground at all, depends on the Basin
Reserve continuing to meet the demands of the modern game.
40
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Snedden.
MS ANDREWS: Mr Clinton, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Clinton. 45
Page 6006
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR CLINTON: Good morning. My name is Peter Anthony Clinton, I am
providing evidence on behalf of the Basin Reserve Trust and Cricket
Wellington Incorporated. This document is a concise summary of my
evidence for the Basin Bridge proposal. My qualifications and
experience are set out in my evidence-in-chief dated 13 December 5
2013. My summary addresses the following matters. Current usage of
the Basin Reserve and potential impact of the proposal on the Basin
Reserve.
Use of the Basin Reserve. The Basin Reserve is primarily used for the 10
sport of cricket. It is recognised as New Zealand’s premier test match
cricket venue and is internationally recognised as being within the
top 10 test cricket venues in the world.
The cricket season runs approximately from the last week of October at 15
the beginning of summer until the first week of April at the end of
summer. During the cricket season the Basin Reserve is a very busy
cricket ground. During each cricket season there are either one or two
five day international test matches played. The International Cricket
Council requires that a test ground be vacant for test match 20
preparations for 12 days before the start of a match and for 24 hours
after the match. International test matches therefore may occupy the
Basin Reserve for up to 10 days during the year.
The international test match calendar is only notified from four to six 25
months in advance of the commencement of an international test
match. This is how much notice the Basin Reserve will have as to the
exact dates when the ground will be needed to be cleared for an
international test match.
30
In addition to international test matches the Basin Reserve usually hosts
five four day matches in the New Zealand first class four day cricket
competition. As well as the longer form of the game during the cricket
season the Basin Reserve usually hosts between three and six
provincial Twenty20 games, between four and six one day limited 35
overs first class cricket games and up to 10 college and club one day
limited overs fixtures. The Basin Reserve has in the past hosted one
day international cricket matches and may again be required to do so in
the future.
40
In summary, during a typical cricket season lasting up to 24 weeks
cricket will occupy the Basin Reserve for between 30 and as many as
45 days. In addition to the cricket schedule, if possible, the Basin
Reserve is also utilised during the summer months for other events and
activities. 45
Page 6007
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
The Basin Reserve is also used, primarily outside of the cricket season,
for other sporting events such as up to nine club rugby games per year,
Wellington Phoenix training sessions and AFL fan day events.
Recently the Basin Reserve has hosted a number of concerts and other
events such as the Summerset Music Festival, the Wellington 5
Symphony Orchestra, Balloons at the Basin, hot air balloon festival,
Carols by Candlelight and remembrance events such as the Vietnam
War commemorations.
The effects of the proposed Basin Bridge. The Basin Bridge will 10
impact the Basin Reserve in the following ways: Visual distraction for
sports persons, loss of spectator enjoyment, potential loss of ICC
accreditation and impact on its unique character and ambience.
At present no traffic can be viewed from the playing surface or 15
spectator viewing areas at ground level at the Basin Reserve. If the
Basin Bridge is constructed without sufficient mitigation then players
will be significantly and adversely affected. The impacts would be
particularly pronounced for cricket players who are traditionally used
to playing in sports arenas where there is little or no view of moving 20
traffic.
[10.35 am]
I am not aware of any highly rates international cricket ground 25
worldwide where traffic can be viewed from within the playing surface
including in the field of vision of the batsmen.
This is a distraction for batsmen and fielders and is inconsistent with
international cricket rules. Depending on the level of distraction, this 30
may impact on the test match status of the Basin Reserve.
In my view, anything less than a stand providing complete visual
mitigation between the current players pavilion through to the
commencement of the concrete toilet block on its eastern end, would be 35
insufficient to fully block the view from the playing field of traffic on
the Basin Bridge. The proposed stand just be of a height sufficient to
block the view of the Basin Bridge from ground level.
The Basin Reserve is a unique and boutique sports ground. Cricket 40
Wellington attracts spectators to the Basin Reserve, in large part,
because of the peaceful and relaxed atmosphere created by having an
enclosed green space within the heart of the city.
Page 6008
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
This atmosphere is a necessary requirement for convincing spectators
to come to the ground to watch a game of cricket that can last for up to
eight hours during a day.
Having a view of traffic which will be backdrop to the sports for some 5
spectators on the southern end of the ground, will negatively impact
spectator experience. In a time when many sporting codes are
struggling to attract sufficient crowds, this could have a significant
impact on visitor numbers and on the finances of Wellington Cricket,
the BRT and New Zealand Cricket as a major user of the ground. 10
The Basin Reserve markets itself as a boutique sports ground where
spectators come as much for the relaxed atmosphere and to watch a day
of cricket. This atmosphere is integral to the proper operation and
success of the Basin Reserve as a venue 15
Impact on character and ambience. In addition to sport spectators, the
enclosed nature of the Basin Reserve has a significant advantage when
it comes to attracting top level concerts and other events.
20
A view of the traffic from ground level anywhere within the ground
would have a significantly negative impact on the ability to market the
Basin Reserve as an events venue, and therefore the ongoing financial
viability of the ground.
25
Outside of the cricket season, it is the Basin Reserve’s unique character
as a small and relaxed venue that separates it from other potential
venues. Should a busy road become visible from ground level within
the Basin Reserve, either through the view shafts or on the raised
bridge, this would significantly detract from the ambience of the 30
ground.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Clinton. Thank you, gentlemen, we
will now move on to the next phase which will be the question time and
as I said before, we are going to do it on a topic by topic basis to try 35
and give some structure to it, and counsel and the parties who wish to
ask questions, will follow each of those topics and each party will be
given an opportunity of asking questions.
So the first topic is the council, the Trust and the relationship with the 40
applicant. And these topics have been identified by the parties by
consent and a memorandum has been filed, so the parties have had an
input into it so the first person who is going to ask questions on this
topic is Mr Jones.
45
Page 6009
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Thank you, sir. First of all, I have a document to produce in
connection with this section. This is from the – and this has been
supplied electronically to the Board, it is the Basin Reserve Trust
2011/2012 report from the Cricket Wellington Annual Report 2011/12.
Initially this is for Mr Neely. Could I ask a point of clarification, sir, if 5
I have a number of questions about the same topic for the same witness,
should I pause after each one to see whether other witnesses wish to
answer after each question?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, after each question. 10
MR JONES: Right, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Well after the answer to each question.
15
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [10.40 am]
MR JONES: So initially these questions are for you, Mr Neely and they relate
to the role of the Basin Reserve Trust as set out in clause 1.5 on page
three of your evidence-in-chief. I might have to flick between a couple 20
of documents here, can we call up at this point Mr Neely’s evidence-in-
chief 1.5, page three then we will come back to that?
Now these are the objects of the Basin Reserve Trust as set out in its
Trust Deed is that correct? 25
MR NEELY: Yes.
MR JONES: Now, I will just go through them because I think they are fairly
significant so 1A is to manage, administer, plan, develop, maintain, 30
promote and operate the Basin Reserve for recreational activities of the
playing of cricket for the benefits of the inhabitants of Wellington.
B, to establish a long term policy for the further development of the
Basin Reserve as a recreational facility and as a facility for the playing 35
of cricket and other sports.
C, to enter into management agreements and other contracts that are
necessary or desirable to achieve the objects of the trust.
40
D, to promote and coordinate the raising of funds to assist the
management, administration, maintenance planning, promotion and
further development of the Basin Reserve.
45
Page 6010
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
E, generally to do all acts, matters and things that the Trustees consider
necessary or conducive to further or retain the objects of the Trust set
out above for the benefit of the public of Wellington. Now if we could
pull up again that page from the Cricket Wellington Report that I
produced? 5
Now the second paragraph there, sorry not the second paragraph, it is
the first paragraph at the top right there bearing in mind this comes
from a 2011/12 document. The New Zealand Transport Authority
confirmed that the proposed flyover to the North of the ground would 10
proceed. The Trust had previously supported the flyover in the interest
of improved roading efficiency, now my question, Mr Neely, is where
in the objects of the Basin Reserve Trust is any reference to improved
roading efficiency?
15
MR NEELY: There is none.
MR JONES: May I ask in that case on what basis given its objects did the
Trust decide to support the proposed flyover?
20
MR NEELY: You have got to remember that this report that was in the
Wellington Annual Report 2011/12 I think that was the first time the
Basin Reserve had learnt anything about roading going around the
Basin Reserve and I think it would be fair to say that the four people
who are on the Basin Reserve Trust at that time were all of the opinion 25
they had never seen a nice attractive flyover.
They did not want to have a flyover jammed up hard against the
northern side of the Basin Reserve and so we were just thinking in
terms of what would a flyover like etcetera. That ended up being 30
flipped into that report which was for the members of Cricket
Wellington.
[10.45 am]
35
MR JONES: Are you saying that the statement that the Trust had previously
supported the flyover in the interests of improved roading efficiency, is
that statement correct or incorrect, is it in some partially correct but
doesn’t fully capture the discussions at that time?
40
MR NEELY: No, I don’t think it fully captures the discussions at that time
and I think I said in my summary of evidence that my friends in that
have always – part of the Basin Reserve has always been change
affecting the ground and we are not experts on roading, we know
nothing about roading, but we had been told it’s coming out the back of 45
Page 6011
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
you here and it’s going over the top there, and that’s as much as we
knew about it at that stage. 2011, 2012.
MR JONES: So was 2011/12 was that – this report implies obviously that the
Trust had previously discussed the proposed flyover. When did the 5
first discussion of the proposed flyover occur within the Trust?
MR NEELY: I have no idea.
MR JONES: And was any – within the Trust was it ever discussed that the 10
Trust might oppose the proposed flyover on the grounds of its impacts
on the Basin Reserve – the potential impacts as have been raised by a
number of the witnesses here?
MR NEELY: I think it would be fair to say, again going back to the Trust’s 15
opinion that they didn’t – nobody like the flyover, but they were all of
the opinion that if there was to be flyover there had to be a pavilion to
screen out all traffic that would be 23 feet above the northern part of
the Basin which stretches for 65 metres.
20
MR JONES: Presumably the Trust was aware of or was advised that there
would be some form of Resource Management Act consent needed for
such a flyover and therefore that there would be hearing or a Court case
so the opportunity existed for the Trust to decide to oppose the flyover
rather than support it in support. Even it wasn’t discussed earlier that 25
question must have arisen in the context of what attitude the Trust was
going to take at this hearing?
MR NEELY: I think it would be fair to say that we were only in early early
discussion with New Zealand Transport Authority. They came to us. 30
They initially went to the Board of Cricket Wellington and then were
directed to the Basin Reserve Trust for the various reasons that are laid
out in that trust deed. And no, I don’t think at that stage there was any
thoughts of this will proceed.
35
After all as a Wellingtonian how many various roading structures have
been run by newspapers and all things like that saying they’re going to
do this at the Basin? It’s been under attack by developers. It’s got a
history going back into the 1800s of people wanting to grab this land
and do something else on it. And so we were looking at all times to 40
improve the Basin Reserve which I think we can layout things that we
have done here which have made it ranked into the top 10 in the world.
MR JONES: So in that case, I will come shortly to the memorandum of
understanding and the agreement, is the Trust – the Trust has taken a 45
position of supporting in part the applicant’s proposal. Did you take
Page 6012
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
that decision because it gave the Trust the opportunity to have the
government pay for the construction of a new building at the Basin
Reserve?
MR NEELY: I don’t think so. I think it was just a matter of common-sense. 5
If you look at that beam that’s going across the room there and I’m
sitting in the southern half of the Basin Reserve that’s the view when I
look at Mr Cameron sitting there and he’s a batsman that’s blocking my
view all the time, something floating above my eye line. And so, no,
we were not in favour of that. And so therefore to obliterate that a 10
pavilion 65 metres in length which was agreed to by the City Council
and by the New Zealand Transport Authority.
MR JONES: Well this is probably a good time to turn to the memorandum of
understanding itself and that is in annexure 2 to Mr Blackmore’s 15
rebuttal evidence. That’s the document containing the memorandum of
understanding and the agreement. That’s the one.
[10.50 am]
20
Now this memorandum of understanding was signed – sorry I just
realise I’ve carried on without giving you the opportunity for the other
witnesses to respond. My apologies.
CHAIRPERSON: Does anyone wish to add anything to what Mr Neely has 25
said? No. Thank you.
MR JONES: So this memorandum of understanding was signed between the
New Zealand Transport Agency, the Wellington City Council and the
Basin Reserve Trust on 28 March 2013 and is it correct Mr Neely that 30
you and former councillor John Morrison signed this memorandum of
understanding on behalf of the Basin Reserve Trust?
MR NEELY: Yes, that’s correct. I came in at the last moment because Doug
Catley who was at that stage the chairman of Basin Reserve Trust was 35
suddenly ill and so I was told be there. There’d been a lot of meetings
from the 15th of March through to Easter of getting the various people,
Geoff Swainson in the City Council. There’s been a lot of meetings to
and fro with the New Zealand Transport Authority and I think it was at
that time that the Wellington City Council agreed to the pavilion and 40
they all agreed on 65 metres.
The other people who were in attendance at that – and so I came in in
place of Catley. The other people there were Rod Duke from New
Zealand Transport Authority, Garry Poole who was in his last week of 45
being the CEO of Wellington City Council and Geoff Swainson.
Page 6013
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Can I just check, Sir John - - -
MR NEELY: Sorry, and Garry Poole was there.
5
MR JONES: Thank you. Sir John, were you involved at all in this stage of
the negotiations?
SIR ANDERSON: No I was not.
10
MR JONES: Thank you. Okay I’d like to – before we get into the
memorandum itself – understand the process. So you’re saying that the
intensive discussion on what would be in the memorandum took place
over a period between the 15 and the 28th of March 2013?
15
MR NEELY: That was the time when there was a lot of meetings going on,
yes. I think I recorded six meetings at that time.
MR JONES: I was expecting perhaps that there would have been a longer
period over which these discussions took place. 20
MR NEELY: No, in fairness there had been meetings going on during the
year but this was an intensification of those meetings. To bring it to the
memorandum of understanding.
25
MR JONES: So what led from the Basin Reserve Trust – from your
experience and opinion – what led to the development specifically of
what was put – of the 65 metre Northern Gateway Building option.
MR NEELY: I thought I’d answered that. 30
MR JONES: Let me phrase that another way. What discussion of options
other than the 65 metre Northern Gateway Building option were held
by the Basin Reserve Trust?
35
MR NEELY: I can’t recall.
MR JONES: Okay, let’s turn to the memorandum of understanding itself.
There’s two clauses in particular I want to refer to. They’re on page 3.
Clauses 3.3 and 3.6. 3.3 says, “the Wellington City Council and Basin 40
Reserve Trust will provide the necessary expert evidence to support the
65 metre structure during the national consenting process”. 3.6 “All
parties agree that they’ll support the proposed 65 metre structure should
the consenting authority seek their views additional to any expert
evidence”. 45
Page 6014
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
What I want to raise here is the question of whether or not that
memorandum of understanding contradicts your role as an expert
witness at this hearing. The code of conduct – as you’ve said yourself
in your evidence, 1.16, page 5 – you’ve read the code of conduct for
expert witnesses in the Environment Court practice note and you agree 5
to comply by this code. Now the code of conduct stresses the need for
expert witnesses to be independent as per clause 5.2 which states that
expert witnesses must assist the Court impartially on matters within
their expertise and must not behave as an advocate for the party that
engaged them. 10
[10.55 am]
Yet the MRU which you signed commits Wellington City Council and
the Basin Reserve Trust expert witnesses, to support the construction of 15
a 65 metre structure, the construction of which you do indeed support
in your evidence.
So I want to ask a few questions about that, and I would also like to ask
these questions also apply to Sir John, so I will ask Mr Neely first and 20
then Sir John.
Who asked you to be an expert witness at this Board of Inquiry?
MR NEELY: The Basin Reserve Trust. 25
MR JONES: So the Trust made a decision about which of its members would
appear as expert witnesses?
MR NEELY: Yes. 30
MR JONES: And when was this request made, it doesn’t have to be an exact
date?
MR NEELY: No, well it can’t be, I can’t recall. 35
MR JONES: Were there any discussions held prior to your being put forward
as an expert witness on the content of your evidence?
MR NEELY: Could you repeat that please? 40
MR JONES: Were there any discussions held by the Basin Reserve Trust, ie,
formally as a body or in informal meetings with its members, regarding
the content of the evidence that you as an expert witness should put
forward? 45
Page 6015
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR NEELY: I think there was general discussion at various meetings with
people who came to our meetings and particularly from the NZTA and
the workings we had with them but it just arose.
MR JONES: And when did you begin to compile your evidence? 5
MR NEELY: I suppose the first book I wrote was in about 1975, so it is all
part of a gradual progression through from there.
MR JONES: Sorry, I will rephrase the question. When did you begin to 10
compile the actual evidence, the evidence-in-chief, that you presented
to this hearing?
MR NEELY: I suppose November of last year.
15
MR JONES: You have mentioned that you came into the process of signing
the Memorandum of Understanding very late, that you replaced Mr
Doug Catley, were you fully familiar with the contents of the
Memorandum of Understanding, when you signed it?
20
MR NEELY: I think so.
MR JONES: When you were compiling your evidence, were you aware of the
requirements of the code of conduct for expert witnesses when
compiling your evidence? 25
MR NEELY: Can’t recall.
MR JONES: Well did you receive any advice, let’s say, any legal advice,
regarding what – regarding the stand which your evidence should take? 30
CHAIRPERSON: I don’t think really, we are really interested in that. These
gentlemen have a dual role, they have a role as trustees but they also
are gentlemen who have had a lifetime knowledge of the sport of
cricket. Giving evidence on the effects on cricketers and spectators and 35
the matters relating to the ground for ICC purposes are all within their
areas of expertise. Because of their expertise they are also members of
the Trust and they shouldn’t be questioned because the Trust of which
they are a member and which they may have supported, had made a
decision on a matter. 40
I can’t see how there is a conflict because they have within their areas
of expertise, on a Trust, have made a practical decision to do something
rather than perhaps spend lots of money trying to oppose it so let’s be
careful here. 45
Page 6016
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Okay, sir, I am happy to move on from that.
CHAIRPERSON: What we are really interested in is the need for a 65 metre
building and whether there are possibly other areas of this project
which could have an effect on the cricket or on the Reserve, I should 5
say, it is not just the cricket, it is the wider aspect for which the Reserve
is being used, they are the sort of matters we are interested in, and
whether mitigation can assist in that.
[11.00 am] 10
MR JONES: I am certainly happy, sir to move on to that. I just have one
remaining point of clarification in that case regarding Sir Anderson’s
evidence, if I may.
15
Sir Anderson, I just want, and this is purely a matter of fact, in your
evidence in 1.5 in your evidence-in-chief, perhaps I can just read it out
because it is a relatively small point.
So Sir John, in 1.5 in your evidence-in-chief, it says, “I am currently 20
one of two Wellington City Council appointees to the Basin Reserve
Trust, a position that I have held since January 2013.”
And in 1.20, it notes it says, “I did not become a trustee until January
2012.” I just wanted to clarify whether became a trustee in January 25
2012 and then became a Wellington City Council appointee in January
2013, or whether in fact, one of those facts is mistaken?
SIR ANDERSON: One of those dates is definitely a mistake and it will be the
2013 date. 30
MR JONES: So it is in fact 2012?
SIR ANDERSON: Yes – actually I need – either one of those dates could be
incorrect actually - - - 35
MR CLINTON: Excuse me, sir, I believe the date is 1 January 2012 for Sir
John’s appointment.
MR JONES: I am very happy to accept that. And I just have a couple of – 40
now, you are one of the – in the document we were looking at earlier,
the annexure 2 to Mr Blackmore’s evidence, you are one of the
signatories to that agreement which in your evidence, you have given
the date of 18 November 2013, is that correct?
45
SIR ANDERSON: Yes.
Page 6017
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Yes. The agreement divides the cost or proposes to divide the
cost of building the proposed Northern Gateway Building between
NZTA which would pay the build cost and the Basin Reserve Trust
which would pay the fit-out cost. What is the currently expected fit-out 5
cost?
SIR ANDERSON: The actual agreement says, ‘will arrange the securing of
funding of fit-out cost’, it doesn’t say it will pay - - -
10
MR JONES: That is a fair point.
SIR ANDERSON: To clarify that, the ground and the buildings in the Basin
Reserve are owned by the Wellington City Council. As such, and they
are party to that deed, they are not underwriting the situation, but 15
effectively how much that fit-out will be and how much it costs and
who will fund it, will still have to be determined between the Basin
Reserve Trust and the council.
MR JONES: So there is no current budget or estimate for those fit-out costs. 20
Is that correct?
SIR ANDERSON: There is no formal current budget or estimate, there has
been informal amounts given but they have ranged from modest
figures, if I can say it that way, to larger figures but it was determined 25
that until we actually get the building up and what actually needs to be
involved inside, that that would come in due time. We did not want to
formalise that, rather we wanted to formalise the agreement between
the council and us with the NZTA.
30
MR JONES: Is it possible to give an indication of what, let us say, the upper
range of those figures is, I realise you can’t give a precise figure?
[11.05 am]
35
SIR ANDERSON: No, because they are not accurate. If for example, if I
wanted – if you take the second floor of that building, that is for
community use. Now, when we get, if this building goes ahead, down
to that stage it may be, in consultation between the Trust and the
Council, that that could be used for something different. For example, 40
in one of the discussions we had there was a thing about could the
university hold various lectures there, could that be an outsource
situation? It is definitely not a grandstand, it’s there for the
community. It would be able to be used at times when cricket matches
are on because you get supporters. Where the ground, the first ground 45
Page 6018
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
floor really came back to what is the use of that and a number of
options there.
So it is sensible, we felt, that we do these things in stages. So, firstly, if
mitigation is obtained by a 65 metre building, and that goes through the 5
proper processes, then we can sit down with Council and sport, Cricket
Wellington particularly who manage the ground on behalf of the Trust,
the Trust itself, to work out which they want to take forward and how
much that is going to cost.
10
MR JONES: Thank you, I just have one final question in this section, which
either Mr Neely or Sir John could answer. Subsequent to the
agreement, which is dated 18 November 2013, have any further
arrangements or agreements been reached between the Wellington City
Council, Basin Reserve Trust and NZTA or the Basin Reserve Trust 15
and any other party regarding the proposed mitigation?
SIR ANDERSON: Not to my knowledge.
MR JONES: And that is also the case for you, Mr Neely? 20
MR NEELY: The same.
MR JONES: Thank you, that is all my questions.
25
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Jones. Now, Ms Jones, you are going
to ask some questions?
MS JONES: No.
30
CHAIRPERSON: You are not?
MS JONES: No, I notified the Board via the EPA that I would be conferencing
with Mr Jones and in terms of the smooth flow of the process that I
would be passing questions to Mr Jones and most of that has happened 35
already.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS JONES: So that for the majority of the time I will not be speaking to this. 40
I am also still suffering from the fact that the machinery of working on
the Memorial Park has been going all night and I have been having to
sleep with air plugs so I am not very clear at the moment.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Anderson? 45
Page 6019
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS ANDREWS: Thank you, sir, I have no particular questions on that topic
by way of re-examination, is that what you are asking?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Ms Wedde?
5
MS WEDDE: No, we have no questions on that topic either.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. So that’s that topic completed. Mr Jones,
I just want to make it quite clear that parties are entitled to enter into
side agreements and we have no jurisdiction over that as a Board. We 10
only have jurisdiction in relation to the Resource Management Act,
which is the effects of the proposal on the ground, so I just thought I
would make that clear.
MS JONES: Thank you, sir. 15
CHAIRPERSON: And the other thing is, of course, before that we have to
differentiate between these gentlemen’s role as trustees and their role as
experts, they are separate.
20
MS JONES: I appreciate the clarification there, sir, and I know that the issue
has arisen already in this hearing of whether some witnesses may also
have a role as advocates - - -
CHAIRPERSON: I know that has been raised. Yes, I know and I also know 25
that some of the submissions have raised these issues but they are not
issues that we, as a Board, can address.
MS JONES: Thank you, sir.
30
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take the morning tea adjournment now before
we move on to the next topic, thank you.
MR CAMERON: I think to assist all parties I would have no objection to
these gentlemen speaking with each other or anybody else. 35
CHAIRPERSON: No, I don’t think we – has anyone got any problem with
that? No, we have a cross-examination rule which is when you are on
cross-examination you are not allowed to discuss the case with other
people involved in it so we will just ask you not to discuss the case but 40
we are not going to stop you from speaking to each other. What was
that Mr Clinton?
MR CAMERON: Apart from Sir John Anderson and Mr Snedden, they appear
to be enjoying each other’s company. 45
Page 6020
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, good.
ADJOURNED [11.10 am]
RESUMED [11.31 am] 5
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you everybody. Now we come onto the second
topic, which is, “Visual and Auditory Distraction and other Effects on
Cricket, including Effects on all Players, Match Officials and
Spectators”. And, Ms Anderson, you are going to start the batting on 10
this.
MS ANDERSON: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 15
MS ANDERSON: All of my questions really relate to Dr Sanderson for this
part and a bit like Mr Jones, I’ve done them in probably a little series,
and if you’re happy with that I’ll then pause because it’s all one issue
within the topic. If that’s okay? 20
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [11.32 am]
25
MS ANDERSON: Dr Sanderson, turning to your analysis that you did on
visual distraction, putting it briefly your view is the 45 metre building
plus some screening on the western end would be sufficient to
eliminate batter distraction. Is that a fair summary?
30
DR SANDERSON: That’s a fair summary, yes.
MS ANDERSON: And you focus on this, I think what you call the “central
field of view” but not the periphery view, is that right?
35
DR SANDERSON: That’s true, yes.
MS ANDERSON: However in your original report and your evidence you do
recognise that it’s possible for some movements outside that central
field to cause distraction? 40
DR SANDERSON: That’s correct.
MS ANDERSON: And the examples that you gave (and I’m looking at your
original visual distraction analysis) were, “emergency vehicles, 45
vehicles of vivid colours, those equipped with flashing lights, may
Page 6021
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
cause a visual distraction beyond the proposed area to be screened”.
Was that your original evidence?
DR SANDERSON: It was, yes. Words to that effect, yes.
5
MS ANDERSON: And in your evidence-in-chief you seemed to retract that a
little bit and say there won’t be really any emergency vehicles on the
bridge - well, you say you understand that. Whose evidence are you
relying on for that?
10
DR SANDERSON: That came from the Land Transport Authority, that the
direction of the emergency vehicles was not likely to be the direction
that is currently envisaged by the flyover. I regard that as local
knowledge and I wasn’t aware of it when I wrote that originally.
15
MS ANDERSON: I just wondered whether you were relying on a specific
expert for that comment?
DR SANDERSON: Well I can quote Greg Lee as the source of that
information. 20
MS ANDERSON: Are you aware that the Free Ambulance headquarters in
Wellington are in the suburb of Thorndon?
DR SANDERSON: I wasn’t aware of that and until you’ve just pointed it out 25
to me I wasn’t aware of that, no.
MS ANDERSON: I take though, just as a matter of logic, you would accept
that aside from what emergency vehicles may or may not use the bridge
there will be trucks that use the bridge? 30
DR SANDERSON: Indeed, yes.
MS ANDERSON: And there will be large vehicles such as busses that will
use the bridge? 35
DR SANDERSON: Correct.
MS ANDERSON: And I take it that you would accept those vehicles are
obviously large, could have vivid colours, the sorts of things you 40
originally talked about that might cause distraction outside the 45 metre
building?
DR SANDERSON: Quite right, yes.
45
Page 6022
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS ANDERSON: That’s probably a suitable point to pause, sir, if anyone
else would like to comment on that particular issue.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Does anyone wish to add anything to what the
Professor has said at this stage, or contradict what he says? 5
[11.35 am]
MS ANDERSON: Now turning to your mapping of the 40 degrees, and there
is a picture which might be useful to bring up on the screen attached to 10
Appendix 3H of Technical Report 3, and it’s Appendix 4 within that
appendix which is page 41, 42. If we could turn, Mr Cooper, to page
41.
Now I take it, Dr Sanderson, this is your mapping of the 40 degree 15
horizontal view?
DR SANDERSON: This was provided by the people who made the image.
They, at my request, put the 40 degree box on there.
20
MS ANDERSON: It’s a reflection of your 40 degrees that you are referring
to?
DR SANDERSON: It is, yes. Correct, yes.
25
MS ANDERSON: And in terms of your starting point for that 40 degree box
was that a middle stump to middle stump line that you were drawing
there to create that box?
DR SANDERSON: Well not in that image, no. I mean, it’s a 40 degree view 30
but to middle stump would vary depending on which pitch they were
using.
MS ANDERSON: So where are you lining up the batsmen line of sight, just
maybe in lay person’s perspectives? If you’re doing 20 degrees either 35
side of wherever the batsman is facing what point are you using to set
that 40 degrees?
DR SANDERSON: I’m not clear what you’re asking. Are you saying where
was it centred? 40
MS ANDERSON: Yes.
DR SANDERSON: Well that particular image is centred to the right of the
stumps. 45
Page 6023
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS ANDERSON: So what is the significance of that red circle?
DR SANDERSON: Well that’s indicating the five degrees in the centre, that’s
the central five degrees of the individual’s vision.
5
MS ANDERSON: So if you were the batsman standing at this end are you
basically looking at that red circle just to get a feel for what your - - -
DR SANDERSON: If that was the position of the bowler’s hand - and there
seems to be a dark area right in the centre there which I’m not quite 10
sure what it represents – if that was the position of the bowler’s hand at
the moment of point of delivery that would be what the batsman would
be looking at.
MS ANDERSON: Sorry, I’m not sure which dark patch you’re referring – 15
maybe if I put this another way.
DR SANDERSON: Yes?
MS ANDERSON: If you had a left handed bowler - - - 20
DR SANDERSON: Yes?
MS ANDERSON: - - - coming from the far end, around the wickets, are you
happy that that 40 degrees would stay where it is shown on that picture 25
or would it move further to the right?
DR SANDERSON: I think if it were a left handed bowler bowling around the
wicket that would be a fairly true representation of where the hand of
the bowler would be. I mean that wasn’t done for that reason but I 30
think that’s not a bad representation of it. And I notice there’s some
nods to my right which would suggest that the cricketers involved
agree.
MS ANDERSON: Maybe if we pause there for any further comment, sir? 35
Anyone wish to comment on that?
MR SNEDDEN: Dr Sanderson, is that based on the bare pitch that is in that
picture? 40
DR SANDERSON: Well that’s what I’m assuming of course.
MR SNEDDEN: Yes.
45
DR SANDERSON: I mean the pitches, I’m sure, move.
Page 6024
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR SNEDDEN: They do. A pitch is used for one game. If it’s a one day
game occasionally it’s used for two games in a row but what happens is
that the games keep being shifted across the block so that you are
getting a fresh pitch, and what the groundsman tries to do then is 5
resurrect the pitch that’s been used for use. It usually takes about two
or three months to resurrect it.
But what you can see in that picture next to the bare brown pitch (which
is a used pitch immediately to its right as we’re looking at it) – that’s 10
another pitch so that would be used for another match. So again, the
positioning of where the bowler is releasing the ball from would shift
across to line up with whatever that pitch is.
[11.40 am] 15
So it sort of keeps the arc that a batsman, and I said this when I talked
about the ‘V’ that a batsman is looking in, the arc changes in the ground
itself depending on which of the pitches you are actually playing on.
20
CHAIRPERSON: And does that representation reflect what you said in your
evidence about a right hand batsman looking slightly towards the off
side?
MR SNEDDEN: Right, so we’re moving into that area – can I just stand up 25
and demonstrate something?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
MR SNEDDEN: And I am told that the microphone has to pick up this, but I 30
will speak loudly. If we imagine that the black table is the pitch and
that the bowler is bowling from up there, the batsman, if you like, is not
standing direct on, in other words, it is not a doubled py vision, a left
handed batsman stands that way, and a right handed batsman stands
that way, so what comes into the vision of the batsman who is facing 35
this way, is actually it opens up quite a bit further.
I don’t disagree with some of what Dr Sanderson says by the way, that
some of it is within your central vision, in other words, the thing you
are really concentrating as best you can on the tiny little hard thing that 40
hurts when it hits you, but because of the way you are facing, I guess it
moves from being central to a little bit less than central to gradually
more and more peripheral, but the fact is when you are a right handed
batsman, there is a fair vista that is captured in your line of vision out –
some batsman, and this is why they become really good – is they are 45
really good at zoning in on that little red ball.
Page 6025
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
Other batsmen which categorised me, not so good at that, and so you
are captured by a little bit more, your skill is not as high and you don’t
cancel as much out but yeah, sure, but if you are there and there is
activity happening, it can cause significant irritation and hence, when I 5
talked about the protocols of the game where the fielders are under
strict behavioural rules not to move other than – a fielder at mid- off or
extra cover which are the two fielding positions that probably fall in
this area, they are allowed to move in but they move in on a straight
line and they do so without deviation and it is a slow move in. 10
Whereas they are not entitled to move in waving their arms around and
causing all sorts of things because it is generally understood to do that,
is to upset the concentration of the batsman. So that is a protocol that
the players adhere to, go beyond the boundary line, it is a protocol that 15
people who understand cricket understand the importance of staying
still, and those that don’t, there is usually the ground has put in place
people that are there to monitor that sort of thing, and it is not unusual
at all in any game of cricket for batsmen who are getting distracted or
irritated as a bowler is running in, to actually pull away from this and in 20
fact, if you watched the recent Ashes series in Australia, the tensions
between the teams really got high because of this very thing, is that
what was happening is that the English batsmen were pulling away
quite a bit and not long before the bowlers were releasing the balls so
the bowlers were pretty committed to bowling and it was causing them 25
an intense amount of tension between the teams
And it all comes down to the fact that a batsman is entitled to have the
best background he can possibly have to try and survive.
30
Are we moving on to the fielders, because while I am standing here, so
that is a right handed batsman, and a left handed batsman, you change
that over and it is nowhere near the same problem for a left handed
batsman.
35
[11.45 am]
However, that brings into play is the people who are fielding behind the
batsman, and there is a photo that is attached to my statement of
evidence, which was from us batting against the West Indies who 40
tended to be the hardest guys to face because they had the fastest
bowlers and they had generally loaded slip fielders, but it is pretty
common in test cricket, particularly when the ball is new, to have an
array of fielder behind the wickets and they have got the same problem
that the batsmen have got, in that they need to be able to sight the ball 45
and yes, they are standing a bit further back but if the ball hits the edge
Page 6026
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
of the bat, it flies and I don’t know scientifically whether it gets faster,
but it flies, and so slip fielders – this is still the pitch and the batsman is
batting there and I am a slip fielder and I am fielding back here, I don’t
have the benefit of the sides screen behind me, I am looking –
depending on where you are, going from first slip around to what is 5
called gully which is 45 degrees around, I don’t have the benefit of that
background, so that causes problems in itself.
But again, cricket culture and crowd understanding generally, is that it
is not too bad. But there are plenty of times when you see fielders 10
completely lose track of the ball in that situation but you know, if you
have the bridge in behind them with that irregular movement, I suppose
you would call it, up the top, then there is risks that happen there.
On some occasions if the ball hits the edge of the bat, the ball comes 15
through quite low so that is less of a problem because you are looking
downwards, but edges come at all sorts of heights and quite often they
come at head height or above head height, so anything that raises your
eyes up and forces you to look at whatever is happening there, is a
potential issue. 20
CHAIRPERSON: And just before you sit down, you mentioned the number
of wickets in the block, you called them, how many wickets are there in
the block?
25
MR SNEDDEN: It varies from venue to venue.
CHAIRPERSON: But in this one?
SIR ANDERSON: I was going to make the point sir, if you took that block 30
outside, if you get a chance at lunchtime or something and look at that
block, there is something like 12 to 13 wickets and they go right from
over there, to right over here.
MR SNEDDEN: 13 I just counted. 35
SIR ANDERSON: And so from that right hand side, this is absolutely
irrelevant this picture here, that is for up when you are in the middle
running down this line, but when you go to the right hand side playing
a first class game, you have actually got a completely different visual 40
going that way.
Page 6027
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR CLINTON: Sir, there are 12 playing strips on that wicket block and one
practice bowling strip, there are 13 strips across here. I am not sure
that that picture there is actually now – we always play the test cricket
on either strip 6 or 7 or maybe both if we happen to have two test
matches in a summer, which are the two centre wickets and that is 5
primarily due to Sky Television and its camera angles. Now that
depiction there is not actually, I don’t believe, doesn’t look to me to be
the centre wicket, it looks to be more eastern than the centre wicket
because my experience, I don’t think we would see the side screen that
farm around to the right so I suspect that that might be about wicket 7 10
or 8, just as a point of reference for you in terms of what Mr Snedden is
discussing there.
MS ANDERSON: I think back one page shows the central wicket, Mr Clinton,
if you wanted to – page 41. 15
MR CLINTON: Yes, so there is probably test match strip number 6, and as
you can see, that looks – in that depiction there it is left of the side
screen itself, so that is probably 6 and 7 that we have been looking at I
suspect. But we will play – here we will play first class cricket all the 20
way across to strips 10, 11, and 12, which are the extreme eastern side
of that wicket block.
DR SANDERSON: Sir, if I could ask the physician again, I would like to 25
demonstrate something else about the vision which he seemed to sort of
brush over in my opinion, I could be wrong, would you mind facing the
bowling from this end.
If you are a right handed batsman, would you show me your head 30
position at the point of delivery.
MR SNEDDEN: It varies quite a lot from batsman to batsman depending on
the style - - -
35
DR SANDERSON: Could you show me yours?
MR SNEDDEN: Just trying to remember it, I was – I think it probably would
be somewhere around here, I mean, in recent years what happens is that
– 30 years ago, 50 years ago batsmen tended to crouch more, now as 40
time has gone by, they have lifted themselves up so they are a little bit
more uprights I think than they used to be.
DR SANDERSON: I was more concerned about, or interested in the rotation
of your head, would your head ben in the same direction as your body? 45
Page 6028
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR SNEDDEN: I think that again varies a little bit from batsman to batsman.
DR SANDERSON: So if you wanted to look at me and your head was in the
same direction as your body, I mean, pointing towards the - - -
5
MR SNEDDEN: I wouldn’t be looking at you – if you were bowling on the
other side of the stumps - - -
DR SANDERSON: Yes.
10
MR SNEDDEN: - - - then yes, I would adjust my stance to do that.
DR SANDERSON: But your head?
MR SNEDDEN: Well, I guess adjusting the stance would take the head 15
around a little bit more, so as you are sitting now, you would be
bowling over the wicket, depending on whether you are right handed or
left handed bowler.
DR SANDERSON: I am left handed. 20
MR SNEDDEN: Left handed, so you would be bowling over the wicket to me
- - -
DR SANDERSON: Okay. 25
MR SNEDDEN: - - - and I would open up my stance a little bit to get a better
view - - -
DR SANDERSON: I think you are missing the point, what I am trying to 30
suggest is that you would actually aim both eyes, you did say at one
point, a monocular view I think, or a one-eyed view, I am not sure what
your terminology was, what I am suggesting is that you would actually
turn your head or your eyes so that they were both directed at the ball?
35
MR SNEDDEN: No, that doesn’t really happen in batting, most of the time
you are relying more on the leading eye than you are on the other.
DR SANDERSON: How are you going to define the leading eye?
40
MR SNEDDEN: If you are bowling at me now, I would call that the leading
eye.
DR SANDERSON: Okay, any particular reason why you would?
45
MR SNEDDEN: Mainly because – it is a side on game.
Page 6029
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
DR SANDERSON: I understand that.
MR SNEDDEN: Some batsmen open themselves up a lot more and that is
really unusual. Most keep themselves reasonable side on - - - 5
DR SANDERSON: Are you talking about their body or their head now?
MR SNEDDEN: I think – the teaching we have had is connected with the
head as well and it is, generally speaking, if we are adopting the stance 10
we are now, my cricket instinct would be relying far more on that than
that.
DR SANDERSON: Okay. I mean, as you look at me you are definitely
looking with both eyes, both eyes will - - - 15
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, but predominantly I am looking at you through this
eye.
DR SANDERSON: Well, you may believe you are but your brain doesn’t, 20
your brain is getting in from both eyes.
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, okay, well I can’t argue with you on that point.
Common terminology in cricket is that it is a side on game, not a front
on game and part of that is, there is a reason, the ball swings and some 25
bowlers are good at swinging it, others aren’t, but you are better placed
to cope with it if you are side on than you are – as a batsman I am
talking about – than if you are front on.
I can’t be scientific about it, all I can do is say what I have been taught 30
and practice, I guess, but yes.
DR SANDERSON: Could I follow through - - -
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. 35
DR SANDERSON: Another cricketing term.
CHAIRPERSON: That is why we have this time for contemporaneous
witnessing. 40
DR SANDERSON: The point I was trying to make is irrespective of the head
or the eye position, if the batsman’s eyes are directed at the same point,
ie, the back of the bowler’s hand, there would be a fielder view 90
degrees to either side of both eyes. The sum total is a fielder view, 45
binocular of 180 degrees.
Page 6030
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
It is not 40 degrees, or 50 or 65, it is 180. So anything within that
180 degree circumference, is a potential distraction, any movement and
the peripheral retina is exquisitely sensitive to sudden movement so if
somebody suddenly leapt up, or as Mr Snedden has indicated in his 5
brief, waved their arms, the eye would be immediately drawn to it, it is
the nature of the peripheral retina.
That is why we have a peripheral retina, to alert us to sudden
movements. Regular movements of a consistent nature we can adapt 10
to, it is part of the ambience of vision, you get used to that, but sudden
irregular movements, erratic, shifting of an object, is what our
peripheral retina is designed to observe and that I think is being
overlooked in this discussion.
15
[11.55 am]
MS ANDERSON: I was just noting down what you had said there,
Dr Sanderson, that anything within the 180 degree view is a potential
distraction but I think the reason we are all focusing on 40 degrees is 20
because that’s what you say is the only bit within which batters will be
distracted, is that right?
DR SANDERSON: I think that’s a misinterpretation of what I said. I was
trying to equate what I know about the human visual function with 25
Mr Snedden’s allegory or analogy rather of the V of the vision, that
was where the 40 degrees was derived. Binocularly we have two eyes,
well, most people have two eyes, both eyes function together
simultaneously. In other words as I look at you I am seeing you with
both eyes or seeing whatever is within that 40 degree area with both 30
eyes simultaneously. Beyond the 40 degrees I am seeing on the left
with my left eye and on the right with my right eye, that was the
principle behind the 40 degrees.
MS ANDERSON: But, just to be clear, I take it from what you have said that 35
you accept you can be distracted by things outside of the 40 degrees?
DR SANDERSON: Well, beyond, yes, to 180 degrees in total.
MS ANDERSON: And then moving to the topic of how this affects fielders, I 40
take it from your evidence that you think the risk of visual distraction
for fielders, from movement on the bridge, is inconsequential I think
were the words you were used, is that right?
DR SANDERSON: Correct, yes. 45
Page 6031
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS ANDERSON: And your visual analysis that you have done hasn’t done
any analysis of the different fielding positions and what their field of
view may be?
Have you read the evidence of Mr Snedden? 5
DR SANDERSON: Yes, I have, yes.
MS ANDERSON: And I take it from the discussion that you have just had
you understand which positions are the slip and gulley fielders? 10
DR SANDERSON: I do.
MS ANDERSON: And would you accept his evidence that for a left handed
batsman, obviously facing the southern end, those slip fielders and 15
gully fielder will have the bridge squarely in their view?
DR SANDERSON: Yes, I do.
MS ANDERSON: So while you accept that a batsman concentrating on a ball 20
from a bowler needs screening from distraction, you don’t accept that a
fielder concentrating on catching a ball needs the same protection from
distraction?
DR SANDERSON: Well, nor do the rules of cricket. If we look out of this 25
window we will see the sight screens which are there specifically for
the benefit of the batsman. They may also benefit the slip fielders but
that’s incidental. Those things are designed specifically to screen the
batsman from any distractions behind the bowler’s arm.
30
MS ANDERSON: I am asking for your view though in terms of if a batsman
is distracted, in your opinion, within that 40 degree sphere, then surely
a fielder should also be distracted within that same degree of vision?
DR SANDERSON: Well, they will be the distractions are arbitrary. There is 35
no reason why they should be any more distracted than the batsman or
any less distracted. They are both subject to the same level of
distraction. My argument is the sort of distraction that the traffic would
cause is of a very predictable nature whereas a sudden, you know, a
bird flying through the individual’s visual field or an object blowing 40
across the pitch is much more of a distraction of a sudden nature and
therefore much more likely to disrupt their play.
MS ANDERSON: But if you are saying they are not more or less distracted
than a batsman, then I don’t understand why you recommend 45
Page 6032
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
protection for the batsman’s view but not protection for the fielder’s
view?
DR SANDERSON: Okay, I see the point. My initial thought, when I was
confronted with this problem, was it really isn’t relevant, it’s not 5
actually all that significant. Moving traffic is something which one can
adapt to but when offered the prospects of some sort of mitigation in
the form of a building or a screen I thought, “Well, it can’t do any
harm”. It doesn’t necessarily fulfil the requirements that I would have
put up for a visual problem, if you like, or purpose but there is no harm 10
in it. And when it was put to me as a possible solution I said, “Go with
it, no problem at all”. I don’t think it’s necessary, that’s why my
original contention was a 45 metre building was quite sufficient. 55 is
better, 65 better still but there is no real need for any mitigation of slow
moving traffic on a flyover such as the Basin Bridge. 15
[12.00 pm]
MS ANDERSON: So you say there is no need for any mitigation at all
although you have recommended a 45 metre building? 20
DR SANDERSON: It is certainly better than none but it’s not required. I
mean if we look out of this window here there is traffic moving along
the other end, and there is no attempt to mitigate that. As I was sitting
earlier on I actually saw a fire engine go past the sight screen. There 25
was a cement truck with guys in high vis jackets running up and down
ladders. An obvious distraction to somebody who is standing at this
end, nothing to do with the discussion we are having at the moment,
but a perfectly clear example of the sort of distraction that can easily
take place in this ground. I don’t think the high level traffic passing 30
over the flyover will make any difference at all.
MS ANDERSON: Maybe that’s a good point to open for comment, sir.
MR SNEDDEN: I had a look at that very point and it’s a good point. What 35
we see from here is quite considerably different than what the players
on the ground in the middle of the pitch out there can see from their
height. If you look down at that area, on a test match day, for instance,
a lot of that gap is simply filled in by broadcasting scaffolding, the
sight screens and so it hasn’t been a problem in the past. And even 40
when I was standing there yesterday and a fire engine and a bus, Go
Wellington, came around, you are just capturing the top of them and it
just didn’t feel significant and it is quite a small gap.
CHAIRPERSON: And they also have kiosks over here as well? 45
Page 6033
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, that’s right. It was interesting as I was standing there
and I was looking from this end down to the Adelaide Road end, on a
Sunday where there is no sport happening, you can actually see through
the gates of the entrance over there, the John Reid entrance. And that
was, you know, I put myself in the shoes of a right handed batsman on 5
the test match pitch and I guess I was thinking about it too much but I
could I – you know, it was in my visual, it was capturing my attention
as cars would pass back.
Now, that doesn’t matter on test match day because that gets filled in 10
and whatnot. But that was probably at an angle which is perhaps even
wider, where the toilet blocks are if it was reversed to the other end but
it may be an unfair test because, of course, I was getting ready for
today and so I was thinking about it as opposed to a batsman out there
who is thinking in the moment about what is coming down on him. 15
MR BAINES: Just while we are on that, can I?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
20
MR BAINES: Mt Snedden, you said that on test match days because they
close those gates but surely those are the gates that spectators pay to
come through.
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, but what I mean is they have got turnstiles in them, the 25
ability to see through them is virtually non-existent through to any
traffic that’s moving behind them.
MR BAINES: Right. Can we come back to this other one here because in fact
until last week all the scaffolding was up for the Sky TV so we know 30
exactly where that is there, and so if you are looking at this view from
this end of No 6 or No 7 southwards. Look, I mean there is a truck
going right there right now and I am just interested to know whether
that has been part of the normal experience up until now or whether
there are things outside – I can see where the sight screen is and I know 35
the sight screens are moved but am I right in thinking the sight screens
are primarily to make sure that immediately behind the bowler you
have got a white screen?
MR SNEDDEN: Well, it depends, venue to venue changes, the width that’s 40
used. In this instance don’t forget, go back to what I said before, is you
are looking at it from our height. Now, go back down into the middle
of the ground.
MR BAINES: We have been down there, we have stood at the end of that 45
pitch.
Page 6034
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR SNEDDEN: You are only occasionally capturing – it doesn’t capture cars
at all.
MR BAINES: No. 5
MR SNEDDEN: And it’s the odd - - -
MR BAINES: It is higher vehicles, it’s trucks and buses and so on.
10
MR SNEDDEN: Which is much more irregular.
MR CLINTON: Excuse me, can I just urge a small note of caution as well.
The sight screen, to look at both these pictures that we are viewing and
also to look out across the ground, the ground can actually be quite 15
different facilities-wise during a large scale test match.
For example, that sight screen at the southern end, there is actually a
new sight screen built down that end for test cricket, so I can’t recall
off the top of my head what the height of that is but we build a 4.5 20
metre tall structure with scaffolding and so forth and it can be as wide
as 13 to 14 metres wide as well. So I am just noting that to look out the
window and imagine certain visual impacts just looking at what you
see now it can be quite different at game time as to how we actually set
the ground up. 25
[12.05 pm]
MR BAINES: I guess what I’m simply trying to get at is on this matter of
visual distraction I’m trying to get a sense of what has been accepted 30
for a very long time and how does that compare with what is likely to
be seen when you’re at that end looking this way with traffic on the
bridge? Now if in fact – and it seems to me that that actually is the
most critical area in terms of potential existing visual distraction –
there’s a little bit over here by the Wakefield – but that seems to be 35
one. Now are you saying that typically in the past that has been
screened in one or another with stalls or with something or typically it’s
as we see it now? What’s been typical?
MR CLINTON: We’re talking about the southern end? 40
MR BAINES: The southern end, yes.
MR CLINTON: The southern end would have a large – I’ll see if I can get
some photos if that’s helpful – but the southern sight screen would be a 45
large erection both height and width. There’s sometimes a marquee
Page 6035
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
erected on the top of that southern toilet block, that concrete toilet
block as well. So that would be a further screening of any particular
traffic or the top of traffic you might see. And then as Mr Snedden
mentioned in terms of the – that’s the John Reid gates down the
southern end, J R Reid gates. 5
While they are open the passage through those gates is slow, people
purchasing tickets, there’s bag searches going on and so forth so there’s
not the immediacy of people coming through and high distraction
through there is a rather more slow filtering process there. So I think 10
what I’m trying to describe is for a match time anyway, there are a
number of temporary structures up which actually have the outcome of
screening the tops of that traffic as it goes around the Basin there, at
that southern corner.
15
SIR ANDERSON: The southern end view looking north – we mustn’t think
of the ball coming along the ground because if a ball is bowled from
this end and bounces one short a batsman will turn and hook it. Or if
the bowler’s coming from the south, bowling to someone north, they’d
loft the ball into the air. And it’s picked up more graphic on TV, we 20
see they try to hit over the fielders’ heads, but when a fielder comes to
catch it his eyesight actually has to lift to that ball coming up. And
lifting that if you have distinct buses and trucks in the air as a
distraction from the ball suddenly it makes a tremendous irritation as to
whether you can catch the ball or not. The ball is going at lots of speed 25
as Martin pointed going to slips and it could come face high again not
just knee but face high and you catch the ball around here or up here.
So there’s a very important thing of the fielder and distractions going to
cause to an area right around that wicket, wherever the wicket might be
down that end. 30
MS ANDERSON: Just on that southern end question whether we might able
to get up on the screen appendix 2 of Mr Neely’s evidence because
there is a picture of Basin on test match day there and Mr Clinton might
want to comment on. 35
MR CLINTON: Perhaps as a background – just wait for this image. Can I
continue? The issue of side screens is easily the most resource
intensive matter to take care of before a big test match and as Mr
Snedden has mentioned in his evidence the players are increasingly 40
stronger and more vocal about the need for the elimination of all or as
much distraction as possible.
[12.10 pm]
45
Page 6036
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
So we have for many years, at least 30 I would suggest, have these
older style rolling side screens which on their own just simply wouldn’t
serve the purpose of test cricket. So as I say for those test matches we
erect a full scale side screen at the southern end. For this northern end
we can’t do the same but we have in the past when we’re run into 5
difficulties – we can’t do the same but if you look out the window right
here you’ll see that there are some additional metal arms if you like
which we actually put panels into for test cricket which have a special
film on them. Very expensive film from Europe which allows the
spectators in here to see through it, but the players obviously to see a 10
white image on the other side. So at quite some considerable effort and
cost we’ve been able to meet the players’ demands at this northern end
along those ways.
But it’s not uncommon for a team to arrive and say these side screens 15
aren’t large enough and we race around, literally, and actually extend
the side screens both width and height just to meet the demands of
either the New Zealand or the visiting team. It can be either. It’s quite
a significant as I say resource, intensive issue.
20
Yes so as you can see – I’m not sure which match this is. A rather full
game. 2008. That’s England. Okay so that’s probably the Basin at a
reasonably high capacity in terms of it can cope with.
CHAIRPERSON: Which? 25
MS ANDERSON: Sorry, that Mr Neely’s evidence in chief, the first picture
in appendix 2. After the cricket magazine.
CHAIRPERSON: We’ve got it on the screen now. 30
MR CLINTON: So yes, that’s 2008. That’s the England touring party. As I
say that’s the ground probably near capacity actually so there’s not a lot
of land, available land, to fit too much else in, either spectators or
structures, kiosks, etcetera. But as you say that southern end there, 35
there is the replace of the scoreboard, directly alongside that is the
replay screen structure which has a LED replay screen fitted in it for
matches and then round to the toilet block with a marquee on top which
is relatively common for test matches and then we have the side screen.
40
Which doesn’t look that wide for that match. It’s certainly wider now
days, but my recall for that game in particular was that the England
team at the time had one left-arm bowler I think but it several
extremely tall bowlers and at the request of the New Zealand team we
had to build a very tall structure because the bowlers, if you understand 45
cricket of course, they’re not delivering from 6 foot, they’re delivering
Page 6037
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
from arm’s length above so possibly 9 feet high the ball is coming
from. So quite some effort to actually build a tall enough structure in
that case.
MR SNEDDON: If you had a problem down that end I can’t recall there 5
having been one it’s a really easy fix because you could be quickly
erect just a temporary fence to a height of a metre or two going along
the top and you’d block out the problem. The problem we’ve got with
the bridge, if we get it wrong and it isn’t mitigating the visual problem
then what are you going to do? You’re going to be left with a much 10
more major problem. That’s an easy temporary fix. That side isn’t.
MR BAINES: I guess my point was has it been customary practice up until
now to in fact – see there’s a gap between that sight screen and the tent
on top of the toilet block, there’s a gap there and it seems to me that 15
either side of the sight screen the fence is at a height only of the fence,
the picket fence, that we see around here. And I think Mr Snedden
you’re saying it would be possible to and I accept it would be a very
straightforward matter to put some screens there but typically I guess
has it been done in test matches - - - 20
MR SNEDDEN: I think Mr Clinton’s already dealt with that. I’m saying that
if whatever was being done in the past for that had been adequate the
players would have let you know within two minutes and a temporary
fix would have been able to be achieved. 25
MS ANDERSON: I have no further questions on that topic, thank you, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Jones, have you any questions on this
topic? 30
MR JONES: Yes, I do.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [12.15 pm]
35
MR JONES: I’d like to start with a couple of questions to, Mr Neely. In your
evidence - that’s 1.13 in your evidence-in-chief, page 4, you say, ‘The
Basin’s unique character and attractiveness can be evidenced by
comparison with other world class cricket grounds. Further from this
comparison it is evident that no other grounds have an issue with views 40
of moving traffic external to the ground”.
Page 6038
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
And if therefore the proposed Basin Bridge was built it would make the
Basin Reserve unique among current test cricket grounds in having an
elevated roadway just outside the ground from which the roadway and
traffic on that roadway would be visible. Is that correct?
5
MR NEELY: That was – could you give me the number again please?
MR JONES: Sorry, that was 1.13 on page 4. My question in regard to that is
just to confirm that if the proposed Basin Bridge was built it would
make the Basin Reserve unique among current test grounds in having 10
an elevated roadway immediately outside the ground?
MR NEELY: Yes, it would be.
MR JONES: Thank you. Now, furthermore that this would remain the case 15
unless the roadway and traffic on it were completely screened from the
view of those inside the ground. Is that correct?
MR NEELY: Yes, that’s right.
20
MR JONES: And you refer indeed in your evidence-in-chief at 1.29C and
also Clause 14 of your summary you refer to the need for full
mitigation of that view?
MR NEELY: Correct. 25
MR JONES: Right, okay. So, if screening of that roadway and traffic was
less than complete do you agree that that would mean that a busy road
(and to quote your 1.29C again) that would mean, “A busy road and
traffic outside the ground can be viewed from the playing surface 30
unless there is full mitigation”?
MR NEELY: I would think, as we’ve said, the players probably would not
play if they were going to have cars running behind that area visible to
them at all times. And also not only the players, the spectators – the 35
people who sit basically from the Wakefield Memorial in the southern
end to the Basin Reserve Pavilion. That’s about a third of the ground.
MR JONES: So it would be unacceptable for both the players and spectators
for there to be that view of moving traffic? 40
MR NEELY: Yes, we went over that this morning earlier.
Page 6039
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Sure, thank you. Okay, I’d like to move on now. We have a
number of sub-topics here in terms of the effects on different players
performing different roles within the games, also match officials and
spectators.
5
I’d like to come back first to the question of the effects on batters, and I
have some questions for you, Mr Snedden, regarding Mr Sanderson’s
evidence.
Are there any other witnesses who wish to comment on that initial 10
section of questions to Mr Neely?
Okay, then I’ll continue. So just – I know we’ve already had some
discussion of Mr Sanderson’s views about what mitigation is adequate,
but just for the record, Mr Snedden, do you agree with Mr Sanderson 15
that a 45 metre Northern Gateway Building would be more than
adequate mitigation to avoid visual distraction to the batter?
MR SNEDDEN: No.
20
MR JONES: And what is your reason for that?
MR SNEDDEN: It’s set out in the statement.
[12.20 pm] 25
MR JONES: Okay. Now, moving to – again, with Mr Snedden, moving to
1.23C in your evidence, which is on pages 6 and 7, you've said, ‘The
motion of cars” – this is C, sorry – “The motion of cars on the Basin
Bridge will not be regular and predictable. Unless full mitigation is 30
provided traffic will periodically and irregularly pass through a
batsman’s line of sight and the gap between the Northern Gateway
Building and the foliage on the bank. The sudden appearance of fast
moving vehicles against a stationary background will be much more
pronounced and distracting than the slight and continuous movement of 35
a crowd when viewed from the distance.”
Now, Mr Sanderson has said that he views that the motion of traffic on
the proposed Basin Bridge – I believe you said, Mr Sanderson, (correct
me if I’m wrong) that it would be at low speed and would be regular. 40
Is that a fair summary of your views?
DR SANDERSON: That’s correct.
MR JONES: Yes. Do you agree, Mr Sanderson, with either of those points? 45
Sorry, Mr Sneddon?
Page 6040
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR SNEDDEN: It doesn’t sound right to me. I mean, it’s a roadway. I guess
it depends what the traffic controls are, the traffic lights etc. that exist
around, but I wouldn’t have thought that regular would be – I mean
already what we see going around the Basin is not regular, it hits in fits 5
and starts and different types of vehicles all over the show. And I
guess on a flyover, you know, depending on the degree of continuity is
drivers will feel able to drive a bit faster than others might.
So it just strikes me that we’re not going to get something that is spaced 10
regularly, predictable. We’re going to have things happening as you
would normally happen, I would have thought, in traffic, and as already
happens around the Basin in fairly irregular spurts.
MR JONES: So in terms of them (since we’re considering at this point 15
batsmen) any appearance – and I note here that Mr Sanderson has
referred to the possibility of distraction anywhere within a field of
vision of 180 degrees, not just the 40 degrees that was being discussed.
So any appearance of moving vehicles in the proposed flyover that was 20
in the batsman’s field of vision could be distracting. Is that correct?
MR SNEDDEN: It could be. It doesn’t mean it absolutely will be but it could
be.
25
MR JONES: Okay, thank you. Now, could we call up please Figure 7B45?
Perhaps while that’s being done I could just check if any other witness
would like to comment on that last sequence? Well that’s at this stage
for Mr Snedden. Thank you. Now, this shows – it’s a very similar
figure to the one we were looking at before, it just doesn’t have that 30
central visual field marked on it.
So again, this is one of the Truescape images, and I should note here
that there have been questions raised about the applicability of viewing
those Truescape images in the way that we’re now viewing them but 35
they do seem to be the best we can manage.
Could we back please to the one that we had before which had the
central visual image showing? And I apologise because I didn’t – that
is the one with that little 40 degree field of vision. It was a bit easier to 40
see the path of the proposed flyover on that one. If anyone is able to
assist with the number of that image?
MS ANDERSON: It is Appendix 3H, page 41 in the TR3.
45
Page 6041
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
[12.25 pm]
MR JONES: Thank you. That’s the one. Yes, thank you. Just blow it up a
bit. Now this image shows the proposed 65 metre Northern Gateway
Building. I think that is still the 65 metre in that one. And although it’s 5
a little hard to see the way it’s lit to the east of the proposed Northern
Gateway Building you can then see a portion of the proposed flyover.
There are pohutukawa trees shown partially obscuring the view. The
cut-off line of green behind it is the proposed green screen which is on
the far side of the flyover so it is not blocking the view. So the 10
question I’m going to ask in relation to this is am I correct then that in
the mitigation that’s currently proposed there will still be views of
traffic on the proposed flyover which will be passing through that gap
where there aren’t pohutukawas and before the Northern Gateway
Building. Is it your view that that’s the case? 15
MR SNEDDEN: Well, I can only go off what’s in the photographs. The
photograph is the photograph and it looks like here are views of it.
MR JONES: Right thank you. And I just want to ask you – sorry I will carry 20
on. Mr Sanderson I have a question for you. Would you agree that
from the position of the batsman as we previously discussed and as
Mr Snedden demonstrated that that portion of the flyover is within the
180 degree field of view?
25
DR SANDERSON: From the batsman at this end very definitely.
MR JONES: Thank you. Now I just want to turn briefly Mr Sanderon to your
supplementary evidence. We’ve established that with the mitigations
currently proposed there will be a view of traffic on the proposed 30
flyover from the playing surface including the pitch. The question was
raised whether there might be an additional source of distraction from
reflections from vehicles and I just want to ask whether your
supplementary evidence at 1.3, whether that derives from a specific
modelling of this situation or whether it derives from the general 35
knowledge of the behaviour of reflections from traffic?
DR SANDERSON: Certainly the latter. I was provided with a specific model
of the situation. I didn’t think it was helpful to the purpose I had in
mind which was to point out that the reflections would be of a minor 40
nature anyway and transient at the best. So I felt that my evidence
would be better to concentrate on the nature of the reflections rather
than the source.
Page 6042
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: So I can ask is – in general terms now I’m not talking about the
specifics at the moment, is that problem of reflection such as it is likely
to be different at different times of the day.
DR SANDERSON: Very definitely. The sun obviously in a lower position 5
would be more likely to reflect directly into the pitch.
MR JONES: And so potentially especially as we get towards the end of a
day’s play then what problem there is may increase. Would that be a
fair comment? 10
DR SANDERSON: The likelihood of reflection occurring may increase but
the problem in my opinion is minor anyway.
MR JONES: Okay. And so just one more question on that specific topic. So 15
am I right there has been no study done on the specific issue of the time
of day for example at which reflections might fall onto the playing
surface?
DR SANDERSON: No, that’s not correct. I was provided with a diagram 20
which illustrated the position of the sun in various angles throughout
the day. But I chose not to use that.
MR JONES: So it’s not in evidence at this hearing?
25
DR SANDERSON: Not to my knowledge.
MR JONES: Thank you for that. Anybody else want to comment on those
issues?
30
[12.30 pm]
MR SNEDDEN: Just one. I’m just not whether we’re covering it under this
topic or not. We’ve looked at the effect that it has on a batsman.
We’ve looked at the effect that it has on fielders. But are we covering 35
within this particular topic the effect that it has on the overall feel and
ambience of the ground having a - - -
CHAIRPERSON: Indeed on spectators, yes. No one’s raised that at this
stage. This is the time to do it, yes. 40
MR SNEDDEN: I stood out there yesterday and I was picturing what it would
be like to have this concrete flyover there. We’re not involved in
traffic management and hopefully the solution that the experts in that
area are coming up with create a real benefit for Wellington traffic so 45
I’m not in the slightest bit arguing against that.
Page 6043
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
I’m simply looking at what is – if this thing gets built what does it look
like from inside the ground and in my mind’s eye picturing it and
having had access to some of the sorts of things we’re looking at now,
in the absence of any mitigation at all it looks hideous and imposing, 5
and Don touched on it in his evidence before. One of the things that is
special about the Basin is there is a lot of greenery around. It’s an
informal ground. It’s got a different flavour than a whole lot of
sporting venues that have now emerged in the professional age around
the world where concrete has taken over. Much as I love the stadium 10
down the road. That’s a product of the modern era.
What we’ve got out here is a product of history and suits the type of
game that is played in the arena down to the ground. And the two
things come together to create something really special. And we saw 15
that only a couple of months when we had that fantastic test against
India and McCullum had his special moment where basically on the
morning of him getting to 300 the city cleared out and came down here
and participated in something that was just magnificent.
20
And so I was standing out there yesterday looking across at this and
thought all right, so I’ve got a view whether it courses problems for the
batsmen and I’ve expressed that, likewise for the fielders, but actually
in terms of the ground itself, for the people who love the ground, the
people who come here to watch and who really value what this 25
ground’s about and to suddenly have this concrete highway right on the
edges of it – because it is right on the edges. It’s not pushed back 50
metres or whatever. It’s right there, just outside the perimeter.
And that is going to have an enormous impact on the look and feel of 30
the ground. So mitigation becomes so incredibly important because of
the history of the ground, because of the flavour of it, because of what
it is. To make sure that that mitigation is right, because we don’t get a
second crack at this. Unless NZTA has an open chequebook that says
all right, if we don’t get it right the first time we’ll have a crack and get 35
it right the second time. It won’t happen that way.
So I think all of us cricket people that are sitting here and those that
have submitted who aren’t here are saying, please whatever you do
don’t take away from what the specialness of this ground is because 40
that’s why it has people who are prepared to give up a whole lot of time
to turn up and express their views. That’s why it is what it is and so I
think going back to some of the questions of Mr Jones before which
were sort of in some ways trying to test why would the trustees agree at
all to anything. I think what the trustees are saying well we realise we 45
Page 6044
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
don’t live in our own bubble in our world life has to go on and traffic is
a bit of an issue for Wellington.
So if better things can be done, fine, but those sort of making that sort
of progress must also respect what is here and what has been here for 5
more than 100 years and why that is so important to Wellington and
must do everything they absolutely can to make sure that whatever the
end result is that, yes, it captures the benefits of the traffic management
guys think can exist but likewise it doesn’t undermine what exists here
now. 10
MR JONES: I’d just like to follow up – I will be coming back to some
questions about the effect on spectators. I just want to follow up with a
couple of questions to you Mr Snedden. Firstly you’ve said that the
flyover would look hideous and you’ve said it’s important to mitigate 15
it.
[12.35 pm]
Anybody coming to the grounds, certainly from the seaward side will 20
be seeing passing underneath, possible even passing along that flyover.
So is it not the case that placing a flyover outside the ground will have
an effect on the spectator experience because it’s there regardless of
whatever mitigation happens inside the ground?
25
MR SNEDDEN: Yes it will, but that’s where I go and say we don’t just live
in our own little bubble in this world. Everything’s got to co-exist and
so you have to find a balance and I guess this process itself is about
trying to find the balance between all sorts of valid, important and
competing interests. I said a flyover looks hideous everywhere around 30
the world they look hideous. That’s just a fact of life. Bunch of
concrete and, yes, it has the potential to impact on a moment in time in
the experience of the spectators who are coming into the ground.
But those spectators might have been able to get to the ground a lot 35
easier because of the traffic management improvements that maybe the
flyover produces. I don’t know the answer to that. Swings and
roundabouts. So I’m most concerned about the fact that if this is
validly important to proceed based on the experts – the areas I don’t
have any expertise in is equally valid for those who have the decision 40
making authority to ensure that they protect what is here and what is
also valuable to Wellington.
Page 6045
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: So just one more follow up question on that. So if a traffic
management solution was found that did not involve the construction of
a flyover that would be preferable from your point of view? In your
expert opinion as a cricket expert?
5
MR SNEDDEN: You’re taking me well beyond – I don’t know what the
options are on the table.
MR JONES: I’m not asking you as a transport expert, I’m saying that as – to
the view of the effect on the Basin Reserve itself would it be preferable 10
if the flyover was not built.
MR SNEDDEN: Yes. But likewise we’re not living in a bubble. There are
other things happening in this life and we all benefit from improved
traffic flows so you learn to live with some things on the basis that it 15
provides you with benefits in other areas.
MR JONES: Well I think it’s fair to say that that’s obviously a question of
some debate here at the hearing. Would any of the other – I think this
is a good time to ask whether any of the witnesses - - - 20
CHAIRPERSON: That’s a real understatement.
MR JONES: I didn’t want to go too far. I’m thinking particularly
Professor Ricketts if you’d like to comment on the issues of the effect 25
of a flyover on the overall ambience of the ground and spectator
experience.
DR RICKETTS: Well I don’t purport to be a traffic expert either, but it’s
clear to me that if there were a different option from a flyover form an 30
aesthetic cricket watching point of view that would be a better option.
So I mean it seems to me that this issue depends on what weighting you
give to different priorities. And we don’t have to be experts in either of
those fields to have a reaction to that.
35
If you think that cities are created for people, not people for cities, then
you will probably think like I do that preserving something as beautiful
and special as the Basin Reserve should be given a very high priority
and that things which are likely without very marked and obvious
benefit to the community should be of a lower priority. 40
MR JONES: Anybody else want to comment on that point? Okay. Thank
you very much for those comments. In that case I will refer back to
figure 7B.45 – sorry we don’t have 7B.45 but the similar figure which
we have up there at the moment. Now just referring – looking again at 45
that area to the east of the proposed Northern Gateway Building the
Page 6046
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
applicant proposes to transplant and plant additional pohutukawa
beyond the eastern end of the proposed Northern Gateway Building to
provide screening of this portion of the proposed flyover from the
ground.
5
[12.40 pm]
Now under cross-examination Ms Megan Wraight stated that these
trees will offer only partial screening and that even this screening will
take between five and 10 years after construction ceases to reach its full 10
extent. Those comments are in hearing transcript day 31, pages 3580 to
3581. Unless we need to, I don’t feel the need to call them up but we
can if you like.
CHAIRPERSON: No. 15
MR JONES: Okay, so I wanted to ask, and this was particularly to the
members of the Basin Reserve Trust here Basin Reserve Trust here, so
Mr Neely and Sir Anderson, I wanted to ask were you aware that the
65 metre Northern Gateway Building if built, would provide only 20
partial screening of the playing surface from a view of traffic on the
proposed flyover?
MR NEELY: Yes.
25
MR JONES: And what was your, what is your reaction to this, and in
particular, what is your reaction to the fact that the mitigation, (a) is
only partial and, (b), will not be in place full at the time construction is
completed.
30
MR NEELY: If the 65 metre pavilion is built, then it will be fine and the two
pohutukawa trees that we planted two years ago when we first got the
feeling of this, there was a slight gap in between the two trees, you
have to look at those trees and think, they have been there since – 30
years ago – 30 years ago is their growth there, and so we thought by 35
placing two more trees on the bank in the holes you can’t see, just to
the outside of the one on the right as I look at it, there are two sets of
trees placed in there which given that they cost us about two and a half
thousand each to put in there, they were planted so they were older
trees then, but they will those sort of size in about 10 years’ time which 40
will just complete the ring of the pohutukawas at the Basin which takes
that up to, I think there are 59 pohutukawa trees inside this ground.
MR JONES: Just to check, are you saying that those two pohutukawa which
you are referring to now, would form part of the screening of the 45
proposed flyover?
Page 6047
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR NEELY: No, well, if you go outside the remaining pohutukawa tree you
can see there on the right, they take place there and you can just see
part of it, we were of the opinion that mitigation, we didn’t want to go
right around, that area of 65 metres was satisfactory to cut off the 5
majority of the traffic that we did not want seen inside the ground.
MR JONES: We have heard today from Dr Sanderson, that in fact batsmen
can be distracted within 180 degree visual field. Given that we have
heard this, do you still feel that the 65 metre Northern Gateway 10
Building represents adequate mitigation for batsmen?
MR NEELY: Yes, I do, and I think you have got to take into effect the fact
that the batsmen are used to practising, training, eye hand co-ordination
is all about batting and if you are distracted by something that far away 15
from you, well, that is your problem.
The other thing I found interesting is to say, batsmen facing a fast
bowler there, have something like .08 of a second to see that ball onto
them. They have got to get their brain ticking over to get their feet 20
moving, get their shoulder to the ball, all the other things they do to
handle the ball. I thin, when I hear that something slow moving on a
roadway, 30 kilometres, let’s say everybody in Wellington is keeping
to the rules of the road, 30 kilometres is going like a rocket when you
are trying to pick up something and you have got .08 of a second to 25
pick it up. They are trained to do it and that is why we see, when you
see your grandchildren playing games, their remarkable eye hand
co-ordination, you try and do it, you can’t, you haven’t had 40 years of
playing these games. Batsmen, if they are at test level, have had at
least 20 years of very fine practice. 30
MR JONES: Just a point of clarification here, it perhaps is not a question for
the witnesses, so I will raise it, I am not sure if it is the right way.
Can I just clarify what the proposed speed limit is on the flyover? 35
MR McMAHON: 50 kilometres, but it is designed for a 60 kilometre
environmental speed, I understand.
[12.45 pm] 40
MR JONES: Thank you. So perhaps, Mr Snedden, I will also ask you the
same question. Given that we have heard that batsmen can be distracted
within 180 degree field of vision, and given that Dr Sanderson has
confirmed that that area of the flyover to the east of the Northern 45
Gateway Building falls within that 180 degree field of vision, would
Page 6048
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
you agree that there is a risk of distraction to batsmen from visible
moving traffic on the flyover under the proposed mitigation
arrangements?
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, but I think the degree of risk probably is reducing as 5
you go further around from the central vision of where the ball is
actually coming from, as you are moving around the circumference of
the field I think that the distraction is probably cumulatively reducing if
that is the right phrase.
10
It is an interesting one because I looked at this photograph and
probably initially hadn’t realised about the gap that we are now
discussing, and I think the ability to mitigate it probably does depend
quite significantly on those pohutukawa trees doing what they are
meant to do as quickly as that can be done. 15
It would leave probably a slightly bigger gap than I had envisaged
myself. And I am now talking not so much about distraction for
batsmen or fielders, but actually the feel of the ground and obviously
the more you can see of this thing, the less welcoming it is in the 20
ground itself.
So I guess we are pretty dependent on those pohutukawa trees doing
what they need to do as quickly as possible.
25
MR CLINTON: Sir, might I say, we have in the past, the southern toilet block
which is in fact the gap, I think, that we are all focusing on for this
point of discussion anyway, so that was discussed by the Trust
previously as well. If there is any visual distraction reported by players
or indeed, by spectators, as Martin said, just to protect the ambience of 30
the ground, then a temporary structure such as a marquee would fit in
nicely in terms of the overall feeling and look of the ground and will
also have a screening impact.
MR JONES: Now that is all my questions about visual distraction for batsmen, 35
is there anybody else who wants to comment in that area.
I would like to turn briefly to oral distraction. In his evidence,
Mr Mike Donn, notes that an elevated roadway, he was one of the wind
witnesses, notes that an elevated roadway will lead to road noise being 40
more widely audible at the Basin. And I am referring here to
Mr Donn’s evidence-in-chief, 3.3 page 6.
He refers to some figures in his evidence, and says, “They illustrate the
general principle that lifting the road noise up in the air is likely to 45
distribute the noise further into the neighbourhood. This phenomenon
Page 6049
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
is likely to lead to further noise penetration from the street into the
nearby housing areas of Mount Victoria and across the Basin Reserve.”
So what effect can distraction by noise have on batsmen, if any?
5
MR SNEDDEN: I hadn’t considered this at length, but I suspect generally the
noise from traffic would be pretty muted, don’t forget there is traffic
going around the Basin anyway, so there is traffic noise in the Basin.
I think the more important point would be is it of such a nature that it 10
would impact detrimentally on the enjoyment of the spectators, or
perhaps everyone inside the ground, not just batsmen distraction, but
actually the whole enjoyment of what is happening in the ground.
MR JONES: And do you have a view on that? 15
MR SNEDDEN: Well, the more the noise intrudes, the more likely it is to
impact on the enjoyment of the spectators, but you have to go back to
the starting point and say, I am not an expert about noise so I don’t
know what impact in an oral sense that this is going to have, but if it 20
does, then there is a risk.
MR JONES: Yes, I think the point Mr Donn is making and of course he
hasn’t yet appeared, is that lifting the road noise up in the air, will
disperse it more widely, which of course will be the case if an elevated 25
roadway was built.
I would like - - -
CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Jones, that questions the effect of the noise 30
should be addressed to Mr Donn when he gives his evidence?
MR JONES: Certainly, I can do that.
CHAIRPERSON: And of course the other, the other noise experts as well and 35
they don’t agree, like they all don’t seem to want to agree.
MR JONES: I just have a brief point here now, I will perhaps ask your
guidance to the way it is best addressed. Mr Donn again, has raised the
issue of the effect of the Northern Gateway Building on air patterns 40
within the Basin Reserve which may affect the ability of the ball to
swing. I should clarify that.
Mr Donn has not raised the issue of the ball swinging, he has raised the
disturbance on air patterns, I am now referring to the possibility of that 45
affecting the ball swinging. Would that be better discussed here or
Page 6050
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
under the Northern Gateway Building discussion. If you are happy for
me to raise it here, then I will.
CHAIRPERSON: It doesn’t matter, we will have it now and get it out of the
way. 5
MR JONES: So as Mr Snedden referred to earlier, the ball swings and often
the ball swings very well here at the Basin Reserve, I have seen it
happen myself such as Simon Doull, 7 for 65, against India in the 1998
Boxing Day Test. So I ask Mr Snedden, why is swing important to the 10
bowling side?
MR SNEDDEN: It is like any attributes that a bowler has in his armoury, I
mean, if he can use different things to fool the batsmen, then all the
more chance of succeeding and dismissing the batsmen. 15
MR JONES: And what factors in your experience can affect whether the ball
swings and how much it swings?
MR SNEDDEN: That is a question that has been asked by millions of people 20
for 100 years and more, it is one of those things that sometimes can
happen, sometimes doesn’t. Like you, I learnt Simon Doull out here or
Chris Martin, amazing, but some days it happened, some days it
doesn’t, sometimes it is because of the moisture in the ground, on a
warm day it starts to rise and that creates a humidity, it is a mystery. 25
MR JONES: Can the wind have an effect?
MR SNEDDEN: I think it is probably one of a number of different factors
that does have an effect, yes. 30
MR JONES: In his evidence-in-chief, Mr Donn has stated and this is 2.3 page
5, in his evidence, the NGB seems likely to lead to an increased area of
shelter within the Basin Reserve but will move the area on the pitch
where the wind is made more turbulent flowing over and around the 35
structure of the RA Vance Stand return to the ground.
It seems possible that this area will be near the cricket pitch area in the
middle of the ground. If Mr Donn is correct in that view, would it be
reasonable to expect that if the Northern Gateway Building was built, it 40
might affect the performance of the cricket ball with regards to swing?
MR SNEDDEN: I did read his statement this morning actually, and I thought,
yes it is possible. Wind is something that changes from venue to venue
and it is something players just learn to adapt to and so yes, it can have 45
a performance effect. One of the worst things ever here, is when you
Page 6051
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
are a medium paced bowler and you have to bowl into a wind that is
looking like it is going to be later this afternoon, it is just a fact of life.
MR JONES: Okay, so there may be a cricket effect but you don’t view that as
being a concern? 5
MR SNEDDEN: I don’t think – I did think about it when I read Mr Donn’s
statement this morning and I thought that it probably wasn’t something
you would describe as detrimental, instead you would probably just
regard it as one of the idiosyncrasies of the venue that you have to learn 10
to adapt to as a player.
MR JONES: Mr Ricketts, I believe you are also a swing bowler, or former
swing bowler?
15
MR RICKETTS: Not quite at that level, but I mean, the ability to swing the
ball, as Martin said and much more professionally, he says, you know it
varies from day to day, conditions to conditions, and I think it were to
affect the conditions that the players would just sit out, I mean, I don’t
think there is any mileage in the point really. 20
[12.55 pm]
Some bowlers might find that they derive some advantage or not, some
batsmen might find it presented extra problems. It would just be within 25
ordinary expectations of the game.
MR NEELY: Excuse me?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Neely? 30
MR NEELY: I’d just like to point out that the Basin Reserve is unique in the
world for wind. We all played here and have been blown around, and
particularly in the days when the ground wasn’t as well manicured as it
is today, sand in the eyes when you’re fielding down, looking in the 35
northerly all day long, is very difficult. But it’s one of the unique
things that makes test cricket being played at the Basin quite different
from being played anywhere else.
As a New Zealand selector for 14 years I know that every time we 40
picked a team to play at the Basin Reserve it took us about half an hour
to an hour longer to just discuss the fact that though they’re in a good
run of soft sun and ideal playing conditions you had to think of Day 2,
Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, with the wind. Who is going to do, as Mr
Snedden described, the work into the wind? 45
Page 6052
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
And if I tap my memory enough the performance you saw, Mr Jones,
when Simon Doull got his wickets that day, the wind was a soft, gentle,
southerly and it was a nice sunny day. The only other time I’ve seen
the ball move as much as that was Lance Cairns in the 70s bowling
against India in the same sort of conditions and he bowled the 5
unbowlable Sunil Gavaskar and Vensaka (ph 1.49) within three balls of
one another by bending the ball into a soft southerly.
Yes, wind – it’s part of the unique features of this ground.
10
MR JONES: Thank you. Should I move on to, “Effect on Fielders”?
CHAIRPERSON: Well, no. We’re just about on 1 o’clock so before you
move onto a new sub-topic we’ll adjourned for lunch.
15
ADJOURNED [12.57 pm]
RESUMED [2.02 pm]
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Jones. 20
MR JONES: Now, before I proceed, sir, I have been advised that I should
have placed the Basin Reserve Trust Report that I referred to earlier
formally into evidence, which I didn’t completely do. So I would like
to propose that that be labelled Neely 01 since it was in relation to 25
questions I was asking in relation to Mr Neely and that that be formally
entered into evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
30
EXHIBIT # NEELY 01 – BASIN RESERVE TRUST REPORT
MR JONES: And I then have, if there is no objection to that, I then have a
further document to formally enter into evidence and a question about
this. Again, this has been supplied electronically, is figure 3, Fielding 35
positions from Mr Ricketts’ book “How to Catch a Cricket Match”.
Now, in regard to that I wanted to check whether I should enter merely
the specific figure into evidence of the entire book?
CHAIRPERSON: No, you just need to enter that part that you want to ask a 40
question on.
MR JONES: Certainly so I propose that that be Ricketts 01 in the case.
45
Page 6053
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Ricketts has given us his book and we have read
it. I must say it has been quite an enjoyable little book to take on the
aircraft backwards and forwards to Auckland and I must say I didn’t
realise there were 10 ways a batsman could go out.
5
MR McMAHON: It’s probably fair to say most batsmen don’t know that
either.
CHAIRPERSON: But, Professor Ricketts, it reflects the genre of cricket
writing, it was really delightful. 10
MR JONES: So my question is to Mr Ricketts in fact. So is it possible to call
that one up on the screen?
DR RICKETTS: Now I am worried that I have left something off. 15
MR JONES: I am sure there is an opportunity for a revised edition based on
the recent endorsement. Perhaps I could – oh, there we go. I don’t
need to worry longer.
20
CHAIRPERSON: Should we call this Rickett 1, shall we?
EXHIBIT # RICKETTS 01 – FIGURE 3 “FIELDING POSITIONS”
FROM “HOW TO CATCH A CRICKET MATCH”
25
MR JONES: Yes, that’s right.
MR BAINES: If you must.
MR JONES: Now, a question - we’ve already had some discussion this 30
morning about which fielding positions are those both that require the
best – no, that’s not the right thing to say – the fielding positions that
are particularly likely to come into play, especially when fast bowlers
are in operation, and we’ve already had the cordon for the slips around
to the gully identified there. I think, Professor Ricketts, that would be 35
positions 2 through 6 or perhaps 7 in that diagram?
DR RICKETTS: Yes, including wicket keeper 1 round to 6. But I guess 7
and 8, depending on where they were put could come into that.
40
MR JONES: So we’ve got backward point and point, which can also be
catching positions?
DR RICKETTS: Yes.
45
Page 6054
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Yes. And on the other side we potentially have positions 12 and
13 (short leg and backward short leg)?
DR RICKETTS: Yes.
5
MR JONES: So the reason I bring this up is to show that – and of course
those positions will be reversed for a left handed batsman. The reason I
bring this up is to establish that in fact there are quite a number of
fielding positions, which in the basis of figure 7B45 (which we looked
at earlier) would have a view – depending again on the handedness of 10
the batsman – would have a view of traffic in the gap to the east of the
Northern Gateway Building?
DR RICKETTS: And not forgetting 20 and 25, who are obviously much
further away but would also potentially (depending on where they were 15
standing). So they are the deep field, long leg, fine leg, third man.
They could also receive catches or they could also be affected.
MR JONES: Yes, certainly.
20
DR RICKETTS: Okay, so yes, the ones that you were mentioning are the
ones close around the bat and there are potentially quite a lot of those,
particularly if it is a fast bowler bowling. But the longer field ones
could also potentially be affected too.
25
MR JONES: Certainly. You mentioned earlier catches off hawks and so
forth?
DR RICKETTS: Yes.
30
MR JONES: Or it was mentioned, yes. So bearing this diagram in mind –
sorry, a couple more things before that.
The leg side catching positions aren’t always in play of course – not in
the – or those slips necessarily? 35
DR RICKETTS: No.
MR JONES: But would agree that those short catching positions on the leg
side are most likely to be in use when a fast bowler is operating? 40
DR RICKETTS: Yes, normally, but an off rate bowler might well have some
of those. Maybe, not more than a couple, but might well have one or
more close catches.
45
Page 6055
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Certainly. When a fast bowler is operating obviously the ball is
coming faster than it would be from a slow bowler so therefore those
close in fielders would have the shortest – would need a quicker
reaction time to be able to catch the ball?
5
DR RICKETTS: Yes.
MR JONES: And what effect might it have both on the safety of those players
(and also on their ability to sight and catch the ball) if they were
distracted by a view of traffic on the proposed flyover? 10
DR RICKETTS: It wouldn’t be ideal.
[2.10 pm]
15
MR JONES: Do you know of any – have you been in the situation yourself
where you have been going to take a catch and have been distracted by
some external element?
DR RICKETTS: I certainly used to play at the level where that was quite 20
possible.
MR JONES: So this is the sort of thing we might normally think of as a worry
where, for instance, this is something I have seen myself, you have two
games next to each other and in fact the fielders from one game are 25
overlapping the fieldsman - - -
DR RICKETTS: Yes, your gully in one and square leg in the other.
MR JONES: I have in fact seen somebody hit on the side of the head in that 30
situation. Would you agree therefore that it would be preferable to
avoid any such distraction especially in the context of first class cricket
or international cricket?
DR RICKETTS: Yes, it would be, it would be preferable. 35
MR JONES: Okay, does anybody else want to comment on that particular
topic? Okay, well, if not I would like to move on to - - -
MR SNEDDEN: If we are being strictly honest here there’s some positions 40
there that don’t get caught up in what you are saying and it would be
unwise for anyone to take an assumption that, you know, all the dots
you were referring to actually get caught up in this thing, they don’t.
45
Page 6056
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
Someone, for instance that are fielding 11, 10, 12, you know, usually
they are so close to the batsmen their vision isn’t behind, it’s actually
what’s in front of them and they are not catching a fast ball, their job
there is to catch a ball that’s nicked and goes – sort of lobs up in the air
so it’s not an issue. 5
And their safety issue is when the bowler is not bowling so well and
they have to dive for cover, that’s not going to be mattered by what’s in
the background, that’s just getting out of the way of where the ball has
been hit. 10
DR RICKETTS: Yes, that’s true.
MR SNEDDEN: So I think, you know, for strict honesty here, your slip field
gully cordon is the relevant area far more than most of those other 15
positions.
MR JONES: And would that be also the case for leg slip if posted?
MR SNEDDEN: Well, it depends if it’s a right handed or left handed batsman, 20
it just depends again on the angle. I mean you said before left
hand/right hand, well, remembering the right handed slips here aren’t in
the vision of the bridge, it’s only if it is a left handed batsman. So, you
know, if you are in the particular standing position on the field where
the bridge is in your vision, yes, but a lot of those won’t be. 25
MR JONES: Sure, but it would be, for instance, for a right handed batsman it
would only be, let’s say, a leg slip and for a left handed batsman it
would be the slips cordon, would that be fair?
30
MR……….: Yes.
MR JONES: Okay, thank you. I will move on then, I want to ask about any
effects on match officials and here I am referring to the on-field match
officials, in other words the umpire. We have one standing behind the 35
stumps at the bowlers end and the other standing at square leg or
sometimes point and that umpire is looking for stumpings, run outs and
whether catches have carried. Are there ways in which oral or visual
distraction can make an umpire’s life more difficult in terms of their
job in a cricket match? 40
DR RICKETTS: Yes, obviously there are. Whether they would arise in this
case would depend on something that we can’t probably quite know,
well certainly I don’t know, which is how much the sound is likely to
kind of carry. At the same time you would have to say now that, unless 45
we are playing India, the technology has increased to a point where
Page 6057
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
umpires are given a lot of assistance with making decisions but it’s true
that they might not pick up. I suppose if there was a lot of noise they
mightn’t pick up a snick, that’s true, but then there are referrals. So the
game has sort of changed in various ways which are probably going to
perhaps make that less of a problem. 5
MR JONES: So just a couple of follow up questions on that. You mentioned
that unless it’s involving India, not everybody may understand what
you mean by that.
10
DR RICKETTS: That’s because they just like to have the umpire making the
decision, they don’t allow technological assistance.
MR JONES: And the decision review system is currently at least only
available in international cricket, is that correct? 15
DR RICKETTS: Yes.
MR JONES: So, in other words, in domestic cricket the issue might – there is
no option for a referral? 20
DR RICKETTS: Sure.
MR JONES: Okay, thank you for that.
25
MR CLINTON: Excuse me, can I just comment, can I make a comment? Just
to pick up on your point, the common practice of the ICC is actually to
send around officials before a tour to actually inspect the grounds
before they host matches, and that’s the sort of thing I think that would
be picked up well before the game itself. 30
[2.15 pm]
And they are all very experienced obviously, many of them have been
former umpires themselves, certainly players, and so in the past they 35
used to travel around with the touring matches that go from Auckland
to Wellington to Christchurch or whatever it was, and that always
created a problem because they would arrive only a day or two before
the game and they might highlight an issue, from an official point of
view, from a match official point of view, that required some 40
addressing and there was often little time to do that.
So now what they do is they actually do that inspection at the start of
the tour and they highlight any issues they see or they foresee and that
gives the venue authority, in this case the Basin, plenty of time to 45
actually come up with some sort of solution for that. So I think my
Page 6058
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
answer, to some degree I think to the issue you are raising, is that it
would be unlikely to see an impact upon match officials, which was a
surprise to everyone, it would actually be raised and probably
addressed before the game.
5
MR JONES: Just to clarify that, you are talking there about international
cricket only or about domestic cricket as well?
MR CLINTON: Well, it’s interesting because last season was New Zealand
Cricket employed three match managers for the first time so now those 10
people do exist at New Zealand domestic cricket level as well and they
themselves, all three of them, I think in fact all three of them have been
former international umpires, very familiar with the grounds, particular
characteristics of the ground, the wind, the noise, everything so we
would expect that any issues like that would be actually picked up well 15
in advance of matches.
MR JONES: So let’s say, obviously this is hypothetical, let’s say that one of
these umpires or panels comes, assesses the ground and says, “Sorry,
now you can hear the noise of traffic it’s too loud”, presumably one 20
option is to find a way to mitigate it, another option is in fact the game
can’t be played at the venue, is that correct?
MR CLINTON: Yes, but that’s a rather extreme example, particularly for the
Basin which, as we know, has a lot of traffic noise already. I was 25
thinking more along the lines of like my example earlier about the size
of the sight screen, for example, causing problems for either the
officials or the players, so that would be mitigated in advance. And
there has been other examples but that’s how we would identify the
issue and we would look to resolve it before the day. 30
MR JONES: Okay, thank you for that. We have talked about it but I would
just like to ask briefly about safety. Now, at this stage, we haven’t got
on to spectators yet so that’s safety for players. Now, this has been
referred to already I know so I will just touch on it briefly. I just 35
wanted to ask Mr Snedden, you say in your evidence, which is 1.28 to
1.32 pages 8 to 9, that cricket balls are very hard and they not only can
cause but have caused cases of serious injury and even deaths in cricket
matches, fortunately death is rare. Is there anybody who is not at risk
from injury, I mean in the context of the players or, to put it another 40
way, who is most at risk?
MR SNEDDEN: The batsman facing is most at risk. The degree of risk I
think reduces. In terms of serious injury the batsman. In terms of more
minor injuries slip fielders, any sort of fielder. I mean broken fingers 45
Page 6059
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
are a normal sort of occurrence but I think the batsman is the one who
is most in the firing line.
MR JONES: And would you agree that visual distraction could lead to an
increased risk of injury? 5
MR SNEDDEN: In the context of how I put it in the evidence-in-chief, yes.
MR JONES: Yes, okay. So where you say in your evidence at 1.32, “In my
opinion, to the extent possible, cricket administrators should work to 10
reduce anything that could distract a batsman or fielder from properly
sighting the ball. A view of traffic moving on the Basin Bridge
potentially presents a hazard and should be completely screened from
the view of the batsman”. Do you also hold that a view of moving
traffic should be completely screened from the view of fielders? 15
[2.20 pm]
MR SNEDDEN: Certainly the closer fielders need more protection I think.
The guys that are out in the outfield generally have much more time to 20
react. If you remember what Don Neely was saying before about the
reaction time that a batsman has, likewise the reaction time that a
wicketkeeper slip fielder has is just a little bit longer but still very short.
Whereas if you’re fielding in the outfield you’ve got longer to react.
25
MR JONES: Okay, just to reiterate. If possible or it’s your belief that those
close infielders should be completely screened from the view of
moving traffic on the flyover is that correct?
MR SNEDDEN: That’s what you’d like to have, yes. 30
MR JONES: Thank you. Any other comments on that section. Okay, I’d like
to move on now to effects on spectators and again we’ve had some
discussion of this already. Now again going back to Mr Neely who I
seem to keep starting with for some reason, you mention that one of the 35
attractions of the Basin it is not a stadium surrounded by walls of
concrete. Would you agree that building a Northern Gateway Building
in the proposed location will increase the degree to which the stadium
is enclosed by buildings rather than by the green ambience which you
praise in your evidence? 40
MR NEELY: No, I think it’s quite a nice balance. After all we’re talking
about a building 65 metres, a pavilion. And a pavilion is associated
with cricket grounds. Most large cricket grounds in the world have two
or three quaint funny buildings perhaps named after somebody who 45
played there in 1860 or maybe somebody who played there 1990s.
Page 6060
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
They have a need for a building and they tend to be light and ornate
pavilions and that would cover that space perfectly. And would add to
the Basin Reserve.
MR JONES: So on that point in the joint witness statement on urban design 5
heritage and landscape which is BB.75 – sorry, I’m actually skipping
ahead in my evidence here so I hope I’ve got the number right.
Actually sorry I’ll return to that point. It would be too difficult to find
it at this stage.
10
Do you agree that the new building will reduce the amount of sunlight
that reaches the playing surface?
MR NEELY: No. The sun that hits there will hit there at about 8.30 /
9 o’clock in the morning and will start tracking around over the top 15
here and the photograph that was up on the wall of that sort of view of
the Basin Reserve that was taken about 1 o’clock in the afternoon as it
tracks down and drops down over there. So, no, the only thing that
there may be because of its low slung appearance and everything like
that and it’s the first floor up is where the players are kept or sit and 20
enjoy the game there, they may get some late afternoon sun, but
perhaps that would only be around about March/April.
MR JONES: But in fact it’s March that the second and usually major test
series of the year is normally played. Is that correct? 25
MR NEELY: That won’t prove to be any difficulty. Nobody has ever
complained of having too much sun at the Basin Reserve.
MR JONES: Will there be any shading of the playing surface? I’m not talking 30
necessarily about during the time matches are being played. Will there
be any increased shading of the playing surface as a result of the
construction of the Northern Gateway Building?
MR NEELY: None. The only shading that comes is behind from the large 35
museum stand and that starts getting sun coming out towards the
ground around about 5.00 / 5.30 and as the summer goes on maybe at
6 o’clock there’s a bit of sun comes across around there, but otherwise
no, this one at the northern end will not affect the ground with sun.
Unless there’s reflection off windows. 40
MR CLINTON: I might add to that too that turf received a full upgrade two
years ago so any issues around – I think you might be driving at issues
around the drying of the outfield?
45
MR NEELY: That’s correct.
Page 6061
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
[2.25 pm]
MR CLINTON: That’s not an issue any longer with the sand based high
performance turf that’s been installed. If there was any shading – 5
Don’s told us that there won’t be, but it won’t be an issue because the
drainage will be so significantly improved.
MR JONES: So the drainage problems which as we know have been an issue
here in the past are no longer an issue? 10
MR CLINTON: And won’t be an issue with any shading either. That’s
correct.
MR JONES: Thank you for that. Just returning to Mr Neely, would you agree 15
that the proposed Northern Gateway Building will reduce views
through the ground by which I mean views into the ground from
outside and from inside the ground to the outside?
MR NEELY: I haven’t read all the evidence by the urban designers. I did 20
hear some of it and some people were stressing the fact that the very
bottom ground of the pavilion should be open to show off to people
walking down the road the views they would get of the ground inside.
I can’t think of another sports ground in the world where you weren’t
having to go through high fences, big solid structures that meant you 25
couldn’t see into the ground. And yet we were talking with some of
our urban designers about leaving it open. For what purpose? I could
not understand. But then I’m not an urban designer.
MR JONES: So just on this specific point. I hear what you’re saying, but 30
would you agree that having it closed would – firstly the construction
of the NGB which obviously blocks the space that’s currently open, in
terms of the skyscape, and having it closed on match days would you
agree that it would reduce views through the ground? As I said I’m not
asking whether you think it’s a good thing I’m asking whether it would 35
reduce views?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but aren’t we getting into the landscape, townscape,
urbanscape evidence which we have spent I think nearly two weeks
listening to witnesses on views? If you could confine your questions to 40
the technical cricket issues we’d be grateful.
MR JONES: Certainly, sir. Okay well the point I was leading up to was again
taking your comment, which I agree with, about the green and boutique
nature of the ground do you agree that the project, which of course 45
places a large concrete flyover just outside the grounds plus the
Page 6062
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
Northern Gateway Building, plus the additional screen between the
R A Vance Stand and the Northern Gateway Building, do you agree
that that lessens the boutique nature of the ground?
MR NEELY: No I don’t because the photos I’ve seen or the artwork I’ve seen 5
means that when you’re walking down from the Embassy Theatre shall
we say you walk down there you struggle to see the ground in the first
place because there are trees in the middle which block that view, there
are cars stopping that view. But when you see what they are intending
to do there’s a little forest out there. It will be very very attractive with 10
the things I’ve read of what they are going to plant there and it will
make it a so much more attractive place to come to.
MR JONES: Perhaps again that’s a question for our landscape experts.
15
MR NEELY: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you asked it.
MR JONES: So I’d like to move onto Professor Ricketts. What in your view 20
would be the effects of an elevated roadway, in other words a flyover,
just outside the northern and north-western boundaries of the ground
and as we’ve heard visible from parts of the playing surface and
certainly from many parts of the spectator area? What in your view
would be the effects of that on the spectator experience of the ground? 25
DR RICKETTS: Well it would lessen the aesthetic experience.
MR JONES: There’s been some discussion of the fact that people could so to
speak vote with their feet and choose not to come to games at the 30
ground if the proposed flyover goes ahead because it will in fact make
the ground less attractive. Would you agree that that’s a risk?
DR RICKETTS: I suppose so although you could argue that cricket addicts
like me would probably come anyway. It’s an imponderable. You 35
can’t know that. But you probably – I do think you could say that the
presence of that does lessen – I mean I that’s not just a subjective view
that the presence of such a flyover would lessen the aesthetic context
and experience of going to the Basin. I think you could say that.
40
[2.30 pm]
MR JONES: Thank you. And I’ve also got a question in the same area for
Mr Snedden. You’ve said in your evidence, and I’m referring here to
1.35B and C on page 10. “Having a view of traffic as a backdrop 45
would negatively impact the spectator experience and general
Page 6063
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
atmosphere of the Basin Reserve. This will significantly reduce the
attractiveness for spectators and therefore the attractiveness of hosting
test match cricket there”. And in C you’ve said “ultimately the Basin
Reserve owes its continued existence as a functioning cricket ground to
its ability to attract spectators. Any design of the Northern Gateway 5
Building that fails to fully mitigate the Basin bridge puts this at risk”.
Is it your belief Mr Snedden that anything less than complete screening
of the proposed flyover from the playing surface and the spectator areas
would affect both the spectator experience at the ground and spectators’ 10
willingness to attend matches at the ground?
MR SNEDDEN: I just stand by what’s in my evidence really and the
discussion we had before lunch when we had the photograph up when
it showed the gap between the end of the 65 metre structure and the 15
toilet block I think it was. So you actually had a period there and my
comment then was the pohutukawas have got a pretty important job to
do to mitigate that visual risk. That risk remembering, in my opinion,
was more about the ambience of the ground as opposed to visual
interference for the batsmen or fielders. 20
MR JONES: Certainly, I just want to add one more point there. Of course
that gap is the issue when we come to – I should say if the Northern
Gateway Building were to be built that gap would be the issue when it
comes to visual mitigation for players but am I correct in fact that you 25
get a large number of spectators on the banks and that those spectators
would then be close to an elevated roadway which admittedly would be
behind them. They wouldn’t be looking at it, but you would have a lot
of spectators close to the roadway and other spectators on the southern
side of the ground who’d also have a view of the roadway. 30
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, so I think the pohutukawas have got an important job to
do just in terms of ambience and spectator enjoyment.
MR JONES: Thank you. That concludes my questions on this section. 35
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, Mr Jones. Ms Wedde, have
you any questions?
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WEDDE [2.32 pm] 40
MS WEDDE: Thank you, sir. Mr Snedden, just staying on that issue of the
view above the toilet block on the northern side, just to assist the Board
I’d like to go through some images just to clearly go through the
planting there just to make sure that’s understood. So could we start 45
Page 6064
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
with 7B.43, please? 43. Have you got them in front of you, Mr
Snedden?
MR SNEDDEN: Yes.
5
MS WEDDE: Thank you. And in the top right-hand corner you’ll see that
shows the existing view?
MR SNEDDEN: Yes.
10
MS WEDDE: The text in the top right-hand corner shows that that is the
existing view. Do you see that?
MR SNEDDEN: Yes.
15
MS WEDDE: So that shows behind the toilet block one tree, do you see that?
MR SNEDDEN: Yes got you.
MS WEDDE: And then we can see the other existing trees to the right. 20
MR SNEDDEN: Right.
MS WEDDE: So if we then flick forward to 7B.45.
25
[2.35 pm]
MR SNEDDEN: 45?
MS WEDDE: Yes, please. Do you see that in fact the only new tree that is 30
proposed is that one to the extreme right, the other trees are all existing
pohutukawa?
MR SNEDDEN: Which ones are proposed and which are existing?
35
MS WEDDE: If we go back to 7B.43, this shows the existing trees and 7B.45
shows the view with the project and do you see there is only one new
tree to the extreme right of that image?
MR SNEDDEN: Okay. 40
MS WEDDE: And we have also - - -
Page 6065
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just while we are on that, Mr Neely, can you -
Mr Snedden, could you just show that to Mr Neely for a second. Oh,
you have got it on there, sorry, yes, can you explain to us where those
two trees that have just recently been planted are?
5
MR NEELY: If they are able to move the image further this way - - -
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it is further round.
MR NEELY: It is further round. 10
CHAIRPERSON: I see, so it doesn’t affect that area with the green screen
behind the bridge?
MR NEELY: Mr Clinton mentioned that the green screen there is in front of 15
the toilet block and invariably, the toilet block has a marquee on it so
there is, (1) the apartments, that tall building is the apartments across
the road, then there is a gap covered by the building, the pavilion, then
that gap, the next gap, that is all in front of this toilet block there which
normally has a white marquee on it. 20
CHAIRPERSON: I see, thank you.
MS WEDDE: Thank you, and that was my next question. Still with you,
Mr Snedden, we have just discussed the impact on spectators, would 25
you agree that spectators sitting on the embankment at this point in
time, if they turn away from the cricket ground, have a view of traffic
heading up towards the Mount Victoria Tunnel?
MR SNEDDEN: Sorry, which embankment are they on? 30
MS WEDDE: Sorry, the embankment on the eastern side of the ground,
spectators sitting there as it stands today, if they turn around, do you
agree that they have a view of traffic heading up towards the Mount
Victoria Tunnel? 35
MR SNEDDEN: So it is some of those sitting around the top of that
embankment do you mean?
MS WEDDE: Yes, precisely. 40
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, the ones lower down wouldn’t, they would just be
looking at the embankment.
MS WEDDE: That is all I have, thank you, sir. 45
Page 6066
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Wedde.
MS ANDERSON: Sir, I just have one question here and I don’t have any
further comments. When Mr Jones finished his topic on spectator and
sort of ambience of the ground, I wasn’t sure that anyone had a chance 5
to comment outside the two that did.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
MS ANDERSON: In case anyone wanted to comment further on that topic. 10
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to re-examine?
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [2.38 pm]
15
MS ANDERSON: Was there anything additional other than what has already
been raised in relation to spectator experience, atmosphere of the
ground, that anyone wishes to add?
MR CLINTON: I wouldn’t like it to be understated to be honest, I mean, we 20
have heard from Mr Snedden about the emotional value and attachment
to the ground held, not just by cricket fans but Wellingtonians and
sports fans, and I would full endorse that statement that it runs very
deep that the sense of ambience and character that goes with the
ground. 25
We, Cricket Wellington, surveyed members in 2010 and asked them
what the best thing about coming to domestic cricket, domestic cricket
was and 59 percent responded that it was the Basin Reserve itself,
no-one responded about the cricket, quality of the cricket, six out of 10 30
said that they just enjoyed coming to the Basin, and since that time we
have been reasonably careful in our marketing of domestic cricket to
market domestic cricket as an event at the Basin as opposed to the
Wellington team or whoever might be playing against Wellington.
35
[2.40 pm]
So that is just an example if you like, that backs up the very real sense
of character and ambience as a sports ground, as an elite sports ground
that the venue actually attracts. 40
And the other point I made too, is that the New Zealand Cricket Players
Association, the CPA which is a body that is not particularly old, it
surveys its members annually on all manner of matters, but it asks them
for the best performing ground in the country, these are all of our 45
professional cricketers in New Zealand, and the Basin this year, they
Page 6067
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
have just released this year’s results, the Basin is the foremost the
premier ground, the number one ground among those professional
cricketers. Last year it was number two, so we are pleased that it has
come back to number one, the years before that it was number one, so it
has been in the top two for the last three years, it has been first in both 5
of those season, two of those seasons.
And so I think that is a testament to not just – well, I have spoken about
the spectators enjoyment of the ground, but also very much so the
players as well, the players very much enjoy the venue. And I would 10
suggest that that is not just wicket and the performance of the ground
out in the middle, it is actually also the characteristics of the venue that
they enjoy as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Which was the one that eclipsed it last year? 15
MR CLINTON: I believe it was Colin Maiden Park actually which is
Auckland, which was online because of Rugby World Cup at Eden
Park, I believe, I might be going back two seasons, but they don’t host
first class cricket any longer at Colin Maiden Park, so we shouldn’t 20
have any problems being number one now for the next four or five
years, thank you.
MS ANDERSON: I think that moves us to the next topic.
25
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MS ANDERSON: The next topic on the list is risks to hosting cricket
including seats on ICC status, and domestic cricket, and really I just
had one question, maybe two, to Sir John, whether anyone would like 30
to add to what they have already said in their evidence or
supplementary about risk to hosting cricket.
SIR ANDERSON: Well the first key is accreditation from ICC and there is
112 test grounds around the world and the key – this ground has 35
accreditation and automatic obtained in 1997 when it became formal.
The key is in actual fact, when there is a tour or as covered by
Mr Clinton, that you actually get ICC people coming out and viewing
the grounds, and if they find that the ground is not fit for purpose
anymore through distractions or through any matters that could arise 40
from the flyover and the effects of the flyover, which are under
different subjects, they would ask that they be fixed or you have a
reaccreditation.
45
Page 6068
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
I know in the West Indies when they held the World Cup and I was on
the ICC Board then, the accreditation process resulted in two or three
grounds being unable to be played on – one of those in particular was
due to the condition of the pitch and the ground, rather than a view to
the ground. 5
So this is not a trivial process, is the point I am making, it is a very
serious process carried out by ICC.
In terms of accreditation and reaccreditation, that while there is a top 10
down process, and like New Zealand Cricket do accreditations for first
class match play, there is almost a bottom up process as well because as
my colleagues have pointed out as have I, the ambience and actual
condition of the ground is a vital part as well as the cricket, the game
being played, to people along enjoying it. It is more than – when I was 15
president of Wellington Cricket for example, here, I arranged a
sponsorship of three days and this is just to local matches and that bank
was just packed.
Now I am going back to 1989 there but the same principle applies, that 20
through the years that has been a wonderful draw card, it is a
community ground that has terrific attraction and the spectators will
move with their feet.
[2.45 pm] 25
So while they are terribly important, the people at the end of the day
will decide and really make sure it is (INDISTINCT 0.28) and not the
other players, and we have had a terrific, I was going to say nonsense,
but, harm and interruption to matches when, for example, I think it was 30
2003, when Tendulkar arrived with the Indian team and we had to raise
the screen outside and literally it just about covered the whole front of
the pavilion here, that is why Tendulkar liked to have the backdrop
because he could always see the bowlers arm and the ball come out of
the bowler’s arm as well as removing distraction behind it. 35
And I know in this room, we had to put the floor up by about three or
four feet which we did again in 2007 if I remember rightly, and it just
sort of wrecking the premises and people wanting to come and be
involved spectator wise because of the way the players did. 40
Secondly, the players who say we won’t play. If it is a risk to us, and
harm, which Martin has, I think, covered very well, that it is not
whether you play a game or not it is how you play the game and that
applies on the field, how you play the game, you don’t do interference, 45
how you play the game, it is a good sport, how you play the game is
Page 6069
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
you want the conditions to be right, you stand still, Martin has covered
all that and that ties into this whole aspect of this particular issue.
MS ANDERSON: And in terms of that ICC accreditation, what is your view
on the risk to keeping that if the bridge was to proceed and there wasn’t 5
a 65 metre Northern Gateway Building?
SIR ANDERSON: I can’t say definitely they would say, no, or yes, I can’t
answer that question because it would have to be done by them but
there is no question there is a risk. If we find that that visual 10
impairment and there are other minor impairments, like sound and
whatever else, but it is really the visual impairment which distracts the
batsmen and the fielders, it is a risk, so basically to ensure that it is
kept, and this applies to first class cricket, as Martin Said, you don’t do
half mitigation, you do whole mitigation, don’t go halfway basically. 15
MS ANDERSON: Does anyone else have any comments on that topic.
DR SANDERSON: I would just like to mention that the term visual
impairment is a very specific one and I am not sure that that is quite 20
what Sir John intended.
SIR ANDERSON: I suppose I did really because Martin’s examples and there
are numerous examples of it, if a person moves behind the bowler’s
arm, that is in a crowd in the backdrop. The batsman always stands 25
back and if you found there was a lot of movement and the batsman
had to stand back because there is that peripheral vision that –
remember you are standing side on so you are facing there and your
head comes around, so you have actually got a really strong peripheral
vision from the southern end if you are a right hander. 30
You automatically would stand back if a red bus comes pounding
around the corner at 50 or 60 kilometres. So suddenly the game of
cricket, it is not how you play the game, the batsman, draws away,
draws away, doesn’t’ play, the ground is not fit for purpose. You 35
would say, okay, we will play at a different ground so New Zealand
Cricket would not get the crowds, we can’t play the game properly.
We have got other grounds that are boutique even those this is, you
know, number four in the world. I am sorry, it is impaired. 40
MS ANDERSON: I have no further questions on this topic, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Anderson, yes, sure - - -
45
Page 6070
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR McMAHON: Sir John, I have got a question of clarification if you don’t
mind. Ms Anderson said, or asked you whether the risk of proceeding
with no – what would the risk be of proceeding with no building and
you quite rightly didn’t want to give a categorical answer one way or
the other. 5
Would you have an answer on the degree which that risk might be
reduced if the building was in place?
SIR ANDERSON: I would say it was materially helpful to reduce the risk. I 10
mean, very material. It takes out that, particularly in a period, in a bit, I
know in negotiating with NZTA in agreement with the council, there
was always recognition that corner was at a peripheral stage, but that
was always going to be a problem to anyone. Now, pohutukawa trees
might cover it but that to me is a risk you can accept but without any 15
mitigation there, I think it is a huge risk.
MR McMAHON: Thank you, that’s useful.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jones. 20
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [2.50 pm]
MR JONES: So surprisingly my questions in this section will mainly be to
Sir John. I want to set the context of New Zealand receiving 25
international cricket tours and how easy that is to arrange.
From your national and international cricket administration experience,
is it your general observation that it is easy for New Zealand to arrange
incoming cricket tours, in particular, those from the countries that we 30
particularly wish to host?
SIR ANDERSON: If I could go back in history, if I go back to 1995 when
Chris Doig and I were first on the International Cricket Council, we
were having tours from Sri Lanka, from Zimbabwe, from Pakistan and 35
of course those are the sort of lesser tours which you don’t particularly
want to have, even West Indies, was not a particular – it’s good, sure
you had a cricket match but from a New Zealand Cricket point of view,
and the development of the game of cricket, it is not only the revenues
of the ground to help support cricket, it is actually selling the TV rights 40
and TV had changed the nature of cricket at that stage, and that is when
we both, on behalf of New Zealand, put up the new system for every
team playing everyone.
45
Page 6071
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
So there became a future tours programme and that was accepted
around 1999, wasn’t it – yes, 1999. And then we could know we
would play England which is absolutely the star track, India which, an
India tour, I don’t mind giving the figures, these days if we had
Zimbabwe here we would get TV rights of a million, less. 5
India we are talking 30 to 50 million dollars, just for a tour. It makes a
huge difference, England is the same. Australians are a bit irrelevant,
we don’t get the same TV money out of them but then we want to have
them here playing so the game has changed hugely from that point of 10
view.
At the current stage it has now got much more difficult and
Mr Snedden may or may not comment, but he is very capable to
comment, that future tour programme has been under review with the 15
big three, that is India, England and Australia, who have been at the top
of the world ladder for a long time and of course, India fund the game,
saying we now want to control the tours and you can follow up with
Martin, but Martin, is I understand, on behalf of New Zealand Cricket
has negotiated that in fact we can keep our tours but that is, you know, 20
that is about 2020, 2025, that has been an extremely difficult process
now in comparison with what it was.
So it is very tentative then if your ground is not right, or your grounds
aren’t right, that will affect your tours. 25
Now I will finish up with an example, that when India came just in the
2000s, John Wright was coaching India and New Zealand beat them on
the Basin here and Tendulkar came off the ground and went to Dalmiya
who was the Indian president or chairman of the board and said, “We 30
will never tour New Zealand again, I will not tour”.
[2.55 pm]
So we did not have a tour for something like eight years because we 35
gave a green track.
MR JONES: I apologise, I must admit I was a little distracted there, I missed
all that. 40
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I missed it as well.
SIR ANDERSON: Should I say again?
45
MR JONES: Yes, if you would.
Page 6072
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
SIR ANDERSON: Right, in the early 2000s India toured New Zealand and
we played a test match here and New Zealand beat India on this ground
and Tendulkar – it was on a green track. A green track means that the
ball will fizz and it will cut, you know, a lot of movement off the 5
wicket and the Indians don’t particularly like that because they play on
very dry dusty grounds which take spin but it doesn’t necessarily take
cuts of the ball.
So that was a terrific win but Tendulkar then went back to Dalmiya 10
who was the chairman of the board and said, “We do not want to play
again” and in fact you heard that conversation. Dalmiya was saying to
the ICC CEO, “We want to take New Zealand off the programme on
that”. So this is how careful you have got to be when you are having
touring sides and even what grounds you prepare let alone the 15
ambience of it.
MR JONES: And certainly I would like to follow up with Mr Snedden in a
moment but am I right that in fact in January this year you wrote to
Mr Ehsan Mani, the former president of the ICC, expressing your 20
concerns about the proposed big three takeover of the ICC?
SIR ANDERSON: I wrote to Ehsan Mani, I agree with that. Yes, the concerns
I had was about governance and I was appointed by ICC in 96 to do a
governance review of ICC and that changed the whole management of 25
cricket worldwide and ICC, so had a proper governance process and
board meetings and committees and so on and so forth. So I was
writing to him about the governance involved, not necessarily the big
three because the big three had so much pressure anyway, they could
do things in a proper governance manner, but in this move it appeared 30
to me that they were throwing governance out the window.
MR JONES: Thank you, thank you for that. Now, I would like to perhaps, I
will move on to Mr Snedden but before I do does anyone else have
comments on that set of questions? Well, obviously we are not here 35
primarily to discuss international cricket politics but what I am
endeavouring to do is set the context within which the Basin Reserve
operates.
Mr Snedden, is your expectation that, as a result of the recent 40
negotiations, it will be easier or harder or indeed the same as it has
been to arrange inbound tours, particularly from India, England and
Australia?
MR SNEDDEN: Now we are where we are right now we are okay. The 45
schedule is pretty much set in concrete, there’s loose ends to tie up but
Page 6073
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
I imagine within a month or two we will be able to do that, announce it
and the schedule that we have got for the next 11 years or so is
certainly no less valuable than what it’s been in the past and, in some
respects, is better.
5
MR JONES: So have there not been issues, I believe in fact it happened with
the most recent Indian tour to New Zealand in which the originally
proposed number of tests have not been played, is that correct?
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, that’s right. 10
MR JONES: And might that happen again in the future or is there a reasonable
likelihood that that might happen again?
MR SNEDDEN: The arrangement that is being put in place at the moment 15
should hopefully remove some of the grey area that might have existed
in recent times. There’s a bit of work to be done yet but I think we’ll
get that far.
MR JONES: I obviously don’t wish you to say things that you can’t say in the 20
wider context but one of the issues is seen to be for New Zealand and
in general New Zealand would like to arrange three match – certainly
with the bigger and more remunerative countries would like to arrange
three test match inbound tours but sometimes they have got reduced
down in practice to two test match tours. Do you think that that is still 25
a possibility?
MR SNEDDEN: That will happen tour by tour. You know, looking forward
there’s some tours, say by India to New Zealand next time around that
will be three tests instead of the two tests they were this year. Likewise 30
I think the last tour by England to New Zealand was three tests I think.
We have got a number of tours coming up from England but I’m not
sure, I just can’t quite recall but maybe not all of them a three tests.
[3.00 pm] 35
The issue you have got now is the amount of cricket that’s played and
there’s three forms of cricket now which wasn’t the case a few years
ago, so you are having to fit in test matches, one dayers and
Twenty20s. I was looking at the ICC rankings yesterday and the 40
amount of test cricket New Zealand is playing is very comparable to
what is being played by the other major countries in the world. We’re
not missing out.
Page 6074
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: So within the context of the Basin Reserve itself, is it is true to
say that the Basin Reserve has to compete against other grounds in
New Zealand to stage test matches?
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, and that’s in my evidence-in-chief that that’s absolutely 5
the case. We have seen the development of really nice test match
venues in Hamilton, University Oval in Dunedin. Right at the moment
the development of Hagley Park in Christchurch. The re-emergence of
Eden Park, which I will probably talk when we get on to player voice a
little bit later, but there are now a lot more venues for New Zealand to 10
choose between to stage their matches. But as Mr Clinton said, the
regard of the players is that this is the top test match venue and I am
sure that after the test match we had here a few weeks ago that that
position is probably even further entrenched in people’s minds. And
that’s what’s at risk with the flyover if it is not sufficiently mitigated. 15
MR JONES: So just to pursue that slightly further, what is the actual process
of allocating games to grounds, is there a committee that says, “Right,
these three can have it”, is it a bidding process, how does that work?
20
MR SNEDDEN: The process is run by the management of New Zealand
Cricket, the chief executive with his cricket manager. It has to go
through sign off by the New Zealand Cricket Board. The six major
associations, the six provincial associations are involved in discussions,
consultation but not in the decision making process itself. And there 25
are a number of factors that are taken into account and some of those
factors are relevant to this process, so the sort of things we have been
talking about earlier in terms of the risk of visual interference for
batsmen, for fielders, the general ambience of the ground, all of that is
relevant to it. 30
MR JONES: Thank you for that. Now, I have one more document I would
like to place into evidence and this was supplied electronically last
week, so I will ask for leave to do so. It is the report of the Economic
Growth and Arts Committee of Wellington City Council of 29 April 35
2014 and, in particular, the section discussing the draft statement of
intent for the Basin Reserve Trust. So I would like to propose that be
entered into evidence, I think it probably should be entered as
Neely 02.
40
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Neely might not want to have anything to do with
it. Let me have a look at it.
MR JONES: I am very happy to have it described in any other way.
45
MR……….: Should this be me or should it be Peter Clinton?
Page 6075
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: I don’t know. It is just a matter of getting it in, whoever is
- - -
MR JONES: Whoever it would be most appropriate in terms of the 5
relationship between the BRT and Wellington City Council.
CHAIRPERSON: So we will call this Clinton 1, shall we.
MS WEDDE: Sir, I wonder, just before we assign a number and put it into 10
evidence if perhaps we could explore the document and Mr Jones can
put questions to establish if it is in fact relevant. It’s not clear to me on
what basis the document is relevant at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 15
[3.05 pm]
MR JONES: I am happy to do that, yes. The section I was planning to refer
to is section 5.1, which begins on page 3. 20
CHAIRPERSON: Just to put you in context Mr Jones, if everyone consents
we can put it in no problem, but if one party may have a problem with
it you’ve got to establish its relevance.
25
MR JONES: So the reason I consider this document relevant is that it relates
to the discussion - - -
CHAIRPERSON: Well you just ask questions on it, yes.
30
MR JONES: I ask questions, okay, certainly. I only have a couple of questions
about this. Paragraph, sorry can we just go over to the next page?
There we go. It’s the same paragraph there. The one that begins, “with
respect to arranging a multi-year deal for New Zealand Cricket for test
matches at the Basin”. I just wanted to ask for confirmation that there 35
is currently an informal agreement for the use of the ground for at least
one test match for inbound tour over the next two seasons?
MR ………: (INDISTINCT 1.17)
40
MR JONES: Yes. Was the possible construction period of the Basin Reserve
flyover if consented taken into account in that informal agreement?
MR CLINTON: Yes it has to the extent that there has been some informal
discussions as part of that tripartite group, Basin Reserve Trust, 45
Wellington City Council, NZTA, around the timetabling of any
Page 6076
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
construction to take reference of not just a cricket timetable but
predominantly the cricket timetable, but also any other usage of the
ground so as to minimise any impact on the usage of the ground.
Construction to minimise at a time to minimise any impact on the
ground. 5
MR JONES: So is it the intention in that schedule therefore that test matches
will proceed during the construction period?
MR CLINTON: No, it would be the intention at this stage that there – that the 10
construction has been concluded before test matches are undertaken,
are played.
MR JONES: And that would include since it says “for at least one test match
for inbound tour over the next two seasons”, that would include at least 15
one test played in the next season, is that correct?
MR CLINTON: That’s correct. Thank you for that. And one other point I
want to refer you to there. However there is also a caution that the
recent changes at the ICC governance level could have an impact on 20
future touring schedules. The reason I want to mention – I just want to
ask – Mr Snedden’s given an assurance that basically – I don’t know
that I can say this, but it seemed to me that you were giving an
assurance that those problems had been sorted out whereas this seems
to suggest there’s still some uncertainty over that. 25
MR SNEDDEN: Well, I’m on the ICC as well as New Zealand Cricket. I
think the guys who are writing this aren’t and also they wrote it –
what’s the date of the document?
30
MR JONES: 29th April 2014.
MR SNEDDEN: It’s pretty recent. The information I know is not in the
public domain and I guess am I giving an assurance? Well until things
are absolutely signed off, no. But am I saying what I think will 35
happen? Yes. And what I think will happen is that we will end up with
no lesser quality of international playing programme over the next
11 years than we’ve enjoyed for the last – since the introduction of the
future tours programme a decade or so ago.
40
I think if I get where you’re driving what you can take from that is that
it’s likely the Basin will be in strong contention, all things being equal,
strong contention to host test matches here at least once a season,
sometimes twice a season. Next year’s quite an unusual year because
the cricket will truncate other cricket that’s played so that’s a different 45
situation but if you’re just talking about normal years then you can
Page 6077
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
make a safe assumption that there’ll be international cricket for the
Basin Reserve Trust to bid for and they’ll be a very strong contender
for.
MR JONES: Just in reference to the Cricket World Cup am I right, currently 5
there’s no intention to play any Cricket World Cup games at the Basin
Reserve?
MR SNEDDEN: No, they’re all played at the stadium.
10
MR JONES: And does that include warm up games?
MR CLINTON: There’s no warm up games. Sir, I can provide a bit of
context. I wrote the document so hopefully I can explain. First of all it
was filed I think in late February. 15
[3.10 pm]
The date you’re referring to is the date of the Council committee and I
think at that time there was still quite a lot of communication and 20
decision to be made at ICC level and what the Trust is doing there is
simply signalling to the Council that it can’t guarantee necessarily that
it’s going to get test cricket. It certainly hopes to do that. And it wants
to do that and it’s following that course of action, but it’s just make a
small qualification there at the end that even with best endeavours it 25
may actually not get the number of test matches that it would like to
get. That’s all that’s referring to there.
MR JONES: Thank you. Does anybody else have any questions on that
aspect? 30
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Wedde do you have any difficulty with this?
MS WEDDE: Sorry, sir, no objection.
35
CHAIRPERSON: Clinton 1.
EXHIBIT # CLINTON 1 -
MR JONES: Okay well in that case I’ll move on. Now here I’m referring 40
specifically to the issue around the ICC venue accreditation policy
which Sir John has already outlined to us. I just want to confirm there
are two grounds on which the – the Basin Reserve is one of those
grounds which gained its test status by which we might call
grandparenting because it had an existing test status. There are two 45
grounds under which the ICC can review the grounds accreditation.
Page 6078
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
One is if a major renovation is carried out. The other is if it has not
hosted a men’s international cricket match within the last five years. Is
that correct.
SIR ANDERSON: Yes except for the actual clause, has undergone major 5
renovation, more than 25% of the venue has been renovated. That is
actually in the ICC accreditation which really covers a whole lot of
things about playing cricket basically, test cricket.
MR JONES: And I understand from your evidence – is it your expectation 10
that the proposed project plus associated works such as the proposed
Northern Gateway Building are likely to be viewed as a major
renovation?
SIR ANDERSON: I can’t answer that question. 15
MR JONES: Well let me rephrase that. Is there - - -
SIR ANDERSON: What I mean is I don’t – that’s not my expertise. And to
the extent of the – note in there that there’s sort of a fine line because 20
they say “of the venue has been renovated”. So do you include a
flyover that’s outside the venue? If you go to the letter of what this
says you wouldn’t include the flyover. However – and then you’ve got
to judge whether the 65 metre if that is approved to be built relates to
65% and how that affects the ground - - - 25
MR ……….: 25.
SIR ANDERSON: and the situation. So it really needs an expert to say and
just if I was giving an opinion in that regard it would seem that 30
65 metres is a small section of the whole of the ground. So you’re
drawing a low bow to say it’s 25 percent of the ground.
MR JONES: I understand there are other actions planned such as for instance
the relocation of the C S Dempster Gate to the other side of the ground. 35
SIR ANDERSON: Yes, that’s true.
MR JONES: And also further planting, so.
40
SIR ANDERSON: Yes I wouldn’t take planting as renovations. The
C S Dempster Gate I agree with. And again that’s where you’d need an
official sort of evaluation if that was going to happen. If ICC want to
do that they could do that.
45
Page 6079
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: So if – you’ve raised a point that I was actually going to ask you
about which is am I right that there is at least a question that whether
the construction of the proposed flyover without taking into regard any
mitigation works would in fact constitute a major renovation. Is that
correct? 5
SIR ANDERSON: That’s right. I can’t answer technically whether that’s right
or wrong.
MR JONES: Right. So potentially it might be the case that if the flyover was 10
constructed but no – but the Northern Gateway Building was not built
that might not constitute a major renovation in the view of the ICC and
therefore would not trigger a review of the venue’s accreditation. Is
that a reasonable statement?
15
[3.15 pm]
SIR ANDERSON: It’s sort of like you’ve got two questions there not one. If
you narrow it down to say will that particular flyover not trigger it, if
there’s no mitigation, because of the flyover but then there’s a larger 20
question around that if there’s no mitigation there’s flow on effects
which could then destroy the ambience, spectators the whole lot, which
then could mean that we just lose accreditation. Or NZC say you might
be accredited but we’re not going to do games. And that’s the strongest
bid actually. 25
MR JONES: Right. I’m just trying to tease out what elements there are in the
accreditation process.
SIR ANDERSON: Right. 30
MR JONES: So would it be true to say – again, I’m talking here about we’re
raised a number of inputs into the status of the ground including
spectator views, players views etcetera, but in this context I’m talking
about the ICC venue accreditation process that if the proposed Basin 35
bridge does not go ahead there is no reason under the venue
accreditation policy for the ground’s accreditation to be reviewed?
SIR ANDERSON: That is correct.
40
MR JONES: I do have some more questions here but this might be a good
time to stop and just check whether anybody else would like to
comment?
45
Page 6080
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR SNEDDEN: I think Sir John touched on a point that shouldn’t be lost
here and it’s probably the most important point here. You’ve got ICC
accreditation. Then you’ve got the judgment calls made by New
Zealand Cricket which in part will be influenced and quite possibly
influenced quite heavily by the view of the players, but also of others 5
that have a stake holding interest and I just want to refer to one
example I think might be relevant to this.
Now Eden Park in Auckland is a major stadium. It’s been used for
cricket since the early 1900s and rugby since just a little bit after that. 10
Its facilities are good. It’s got a good cricket pitch, it’s got good player
facilities, broadcasting facilities, media facilities, the works. New
Zealand Cricket made a decision around 2007/8 to not allocate test
matches to Eden Park for the time being and the reason they did that I
think was basically that the feel of the ground, the nature of the ground 15
as a concrete jungle wasn’t what they wanted for overall experience
from test matches and so they placed test matches into the Basin
Reserve, into Hamilton, to Dunedin rather than allocate them to
Eden Park even though Eden Park’s our biggest stadia, biggest
population base. In part I think the decision of New Zealand Cricket, I 20
wasn’t on the Board at that stage, was based on strong feedback from
players that it just didn’t feel right as a test match venue compared to
those other venues and I think that was a view that New Zealand
Cricket regarded as being pretty important in that mix.
25
Now the last two years they have – we have conducted experiments and
they’re now regarded as experiments sending test matches to Eden Park
and the jury’s still out on that I think and both of those two matches,
one against England one against India, great games of cricket but
received fairly mixed reviews because of the ambience and the feel of 30
things in a ground that has a capacity of 50,000 but an attendance of
3 to 5,000 on a day.
And so when you’re thinking about what is possible here and whether
or not there is the threat of losing international cricket if the end result 35
of this process is to destroy the ambience of the ground then
Eden Park’s a really good example of the fact that this is a very real
threat, that international cricket could be taken away from the venue
despite the fact that the venue has 80 years of test cricket behind it
because that was the case in Auckland. 40
Page 6081
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
[3.20 pm]
But, you know, the feel of a venue is really important to all of this and
that, for me, is again when I was standing out there yesterday and just
visualising this flyover and thinking about it in this context of threat to 5
international cricket, to me that was the risk.
ICC accreditation is there and I think Sir John has made it clear that it’s
not a given that they would interfere in the accreditation process. The
accreditation process is constantly evolving and particularly in the 10
professional era the rules and regulations comprised within
accreditation keep being reviewed, and often they are reviewed on the
basis of player feedback. And so, you know, it can work in reverse that
players in fact ultimately have an effect on ICC regulations and that in
turn could have an effect on the future of a particular venue, and that 15
has happened in lots of examples but I just use the Auckland one as one
I think that’s close to what we are thinking about here.
MR JONES: Thank you for that. So just a follow up question on that, so the
situation where Auckland was not used for test cricket had nothing to 20
do with its venue accreditation status in the formal sense, it was
feedback from players, from spectators, from officials perhaps – sorry,
I am not sure if you said officials – that it was no longer suitable, it no
longer had the right ambience as a test ground, is that correct?
25
MR SNEDDEN: Yes, and it was officials as well as others that had that feel,
so that’s why I say test cricket has returned to Eden Park in the last two
years but very tentatively and there is nowhere near the certainty that
they will continue to host test cricket at that venue going forward. And
it’s only because of that feel because all the facilities are good, very 30
good.
MR JONES: Thank you for that. I do just have a couple more questions for
Sir John in this area if no one else has any comments.
35
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR JONES: I just wanted to ask three questions I think. Firstly, you say in
your evidence at 1.31 that the ICC accreditation policy sets out
mandatory minimum requirements for venues that hold men’s test, one 40
day and Twenty20 internationals. To your knowledge are any of those
requirements put at risk by any element of the proposal?
SIR ANDERSON: Of this proposal?
45
MR JONES: Of this proposal, including the proposed mitigation.
Page 6082
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
SIR ANDERSON: By elements do you mean Twenty20, one day match?
MR JONES: No, sorry, I meant is there anything in the proposal, including
the proposed mitigation, which would cause the ground not to meet 5
those mandatory minimum requirements?
SIR ANDERSON: Is it the proposal to build the flyover, the proposal to build
the Gateway Bridge are you talking about?
10
MR JONES: Well, I am happy for you to refer to each of those elements, I was
referring to the proposal as a whole including the proposed mitigation
but if there are specific aspects which would have an – okay, I will
refer to them in turn. Is there anything about the construction of a
flyover outside the Basin Reserve which would cause the ground not to 15
meet those mandatory minimum requirements?
SIR ANDERSON: Definitely in a two stage process and that is a bottom up
process as well as a top down process, it could put the ground at risk.
And Martin has described the bottom up process extremely well as it 20
affect New Zealand Cricket, making a decision on Eden Park, you
know, you get 3,000 people turn up in a 50,000 ground you don’t want
to know. And that bottom up process, that Gateway without mitigation
would put, I believe, a huge risk in a bottom up process.
25
In a top down process I think the ICC are more accommodating,
however they’re quite ruthless if they see, particularly if it has got
health and safety issues as well, and they could come under the
renovation rule or try to and just say, “We don’t believe” or, “You’re at
risk, you need to do something about it”, we have got a different 30
process. If there is mitigation I believe we don’t have any risk on the
accreditation.
[3.25 pm]
35
MR JONES: And would you agree, taking Mr Snedden’s example, Eden Park
was discontinued for a while as a venue and is still only used on an
experimental basis because of issues for the players, the lack of a
crowd to Eden Park to fill the stadium or only fill a very small part of
the ambience. Would it not be the case to say that whatever actions are 40
taken at the Basin Reserve should perverse and enhance those aspects
of the Basin Reserve not risk lessening them?
SIR ANDERSON: I agree with that.
45
Page 6083
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: And my final question in this area – sorry, this is of the
assessment process – who actually conducts the assessment process? I
am referring here to the top down process, we have well-established
how the bottom up one works.
5
SIR ANDERSON: The ICC appoint one sometimes two. For example, I
remember Graham Dowling when Martin and I were both on the
New Zealand Cricket Board, we appointed to go across to India – or,
sorry, ICC appointed Graham Dowling, a former New Zealand test
captain, to go and do accreditation in India for a test series. So 10
normally it’s one or two international players or international player
and someone who, from ICC itself, that is very familiar with the whole
process and the operations of ICC. And they would come and do the
accreditation process and they would then report back to ICC and ICC
would then discuss it with the host nation, or the test major nation as 15
they are called, about the ground in particular. And I saw that happen
with the West Indies in the World Cup where there was a hell of row as
to the West Indies actually having a ground to play and whether they
went to certain venues.
20
MR JONES: So the New Zealand assessors might be called into the West
Indies, it would be assessors from outside New Zealand who would be
called into New Zealand?
SIR ANDERSON: Yes, they are normally very highly qualified people and 25
they do very professional reports.
MR JONES: The final decision, if there was a continuing issue, the final
decision would be made by the ICC itself, is that correct?
30
SIR ANDERSON: Correct.
MR JONES: And, as we have heard, the primary players in the ICC, to whit
India, Australia and England, now have more power than they did
before the recent restructuring, is that correct? 35
SIR ANDERSON: That’s right.
MR JONES: So, in effect, it would primarily be those three countries who
would be deciding, if that process was initiated, on the Basin Reserve’s 40
future as a test ground?
SIR ANDERSON: Well, no, not necessarily. I think Martin is better probably
at answering this question knowing the current thing but normally,
under the previous governance situation we always went through a 45
cricket committee, which is made up of a number of nations, and from
Page 6084
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
a cricket point of view then a report was done to the board, if it was
going there. So this cricket committee is made up from the 10 major
nations representatives and plus a couple of others who have been
outstanding cricketers in their time and just know the game backwards
and have played at most grounds around the world. 5
So it’s not a political thing per se. There’s a whole formal basis,
cricketing basis on which decisions are made. Even though you have
got the big three now, the board would still operate in a proper fashion
in relation to cricket as distinct from money, okay. And in cricket 10
terms they would accept the recommendation of a cricket committee on
that. I don’t think the big three really come into the play there.
MR JONES: Thank you for that. Anybody else have any comments,
Mr Snedden or anybody else like to comment on that aspect? 15
MR SNEDDEN: No, I agree with what Sir John has said.
MR JONES: That is all I had on the effects on international cricket. I do have
questions about domestic cricket, should they go next or does 20
Ms Anderson have some questions on that?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, we will deal with that after afternoon tea, shall
we?
25
ADJOURNED [3.30 pm]
RESUMED [3.50 pm]
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Jones, have you got further questions. 30
MR JONES: Yes, I have a few further questions in this section.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we going to finish tonight, I would like to think we
would? 35
MR JONES: I would think there is a reasonable possibility of that, I don’t
know, I have just been reviewing my questions and quite a lot have
been dealt with already. I don’t know whether there is possibility of
going slightly beyond 5, but I will certainly - - - 40
CHAIRPERSON: Not very much beyond 5, no.
MR JONES: I will certainly aim for that but of course, I can’t guarantee it.
45
Page 6085
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well a lot of those last questions, while it is interesting
the ins and outs of the politics of cricket, are really not a matter for us
to determine and while it is good for background, we don’t need to go
too far into it.
5
MR JONES: I certainly don’t have any further questions on that, sir. May I
proceed?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
10
MR JONES: Mr Clinton, you have said with regard to effects on domestic
cricket, it is actually with regard to the use of the Basin Reserve as a
whole. In your evidence, 1.43 and 1.44 page 11, you have said, “In
addition to sports spectators, the enclosed nature of the Basin Reserve
is a significant advantage when it comes to attracting top level concerts 15
and other events. A view of traffic from ground level anywhere within
the ground would have a significantly negative impact on the ability to
market the Basin Reserve as an events venue.”
And you have also mentioned – of course, the ground is not only used 20
within the cricket season, or even by sports, it is used simply by people
sitting here, passing through it, you have said the view of a busy road
from ground level would significantly detract from the ambience of the
ground.
25
I just wanted to ask would you agree that from the figures that we have
seen today, and I call back up 7B.45 if necessary, the mitigation
measures proposed by the applicant would still result in views of traffic
on the proposed flyover from many viewpoints within the Basin
Reserve. 30
MR CLINTON: No, that is not the way I view those images. Are you talking
about along the embankment, for example?
MR JONES: I am asking from the surface and the embankment. This is in 35
relation to spectators so it is places that spectators might be?
MR CLINTON: No I think the – some visuals might be helpful here but my
thinking and my reading of those visuals, the graphics where the height
of the Northern Gateway Building, were going to be sufficient to 40
mitigate the full view of the flyover and the traffic on the flyover.
MR JONES: My understanding from the previous discussion and from the
evidence of Ms Wraight, was that for the length of the Northern
Gateway Building, it would mitigate the view of traffic on the proposed 45
flyover, - - -
Page 6086
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR CLINTON: Yes.
MR JONES: - - - but there is a portion to the east of the Northern Gateway
Building for which that view is either not mitigated – at the time of 5
construction, is either not mitigated but only partially mitigated.
CHAIRPERSON: Not fully mitigated.
MR JONES: Sorry, not fully mitigated. 10
MR CLINTON We are back to the top of the toilet block again, aren’t we?
MR JONES: We are back to the part of the flyover that is not screen by the
Northern Gateway Building. 15
MR CLINTON: Toilet block. Yes, so my comment again would be that as
Mr Snedden has stated several times, the pohutukawa tree is one of the
proposed screening options through there in time, it already does
provide some screening of course. 20
And there will be an option for temporary screening. If we get enough
feedback or we ourselves believe that the transport visual is detrimental
to either players or spectators or anyone else inside the venue, then we
could look at temporary mitigation measures for any particular gaps 25
along that visual eye line.
MR JONES: Okay, thank you.
[3.55 pm] 30
MR CLINTON: Sorry, I think my comment about the events was that those
events I did list, many of them involve patrons sitting on the field so
Carols by Candlelight for example, Wellington Symphony Orchestra,
we sat on the field and if you sat on the field you don’t have a view of 35
the roading of course, you are not actually on the embankments at all,
so that is why it was an attractive venue for those promoters because by
putting patrons on the field and seated on the field, either on the grass
itself or on chairs, that eliminated any view of any current traffic.
40
MR JONES: But you would agree that during cricket matches, spectators on
the embankment would still have a view, admittedly obstructed in some
places by pohutukawa, of traffic on the proposed flyover?
MR CLINTON: Yes, behind them on that eastern side, yes. 45
Page 6087
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Thank you for that. I want to ask about the construction period.
Should the project be approved, when is it expected that construction of
the project will commence?
MR CLINTON: My understanding is that there hasn’t been any formal 5
discussion or agreement as to any particular timeline for construction.
What I do understand is that there is an agreement between those
parties that they will sit down and discuss the most timely construction
period for, in particular, the venue given that it could well be hosting
matches throughout the summer, but I am not aware of any formal 10
timeframe that has been agreed.
MR JONES: So there is no formal agreement about either the construction
period or the management of the construction period. Is that correct?
15
MR CLINTON: That is my understanding.
MR JONES: Can I just ask whether anybody else has a different
understanding of that. No, then we will carry on?
20
So is there is an understanding of whenever construction starts, how
long the project is due to take to be constructed?
MR CLINTON: Again, I don’t think there has been any formal discussions as
to the timeframe and that is largely driven by the fact that we don’t 25
have a design for the Northern Gateway Building itself awaiting
decision, obviously of this Board than anything else.
Sir John referred to the fact that there was no formal budget for the fit-
out of that building and I am making a similar statement that until such 30
time as we have this matter concluded here, the final design of the
building is as yet undetermined, so I can’t give you a timeframe for a
building that has not yet been designed.
MR JONES: I’ll ask this anyway, but perhaps in fact it is covered by your 35
previous answer. So there has been no consideration given, or has
there been any consideration given to whether the construction of the
Northern Gateway Building and the construction of the proposed
flyover, would be contemporaneous or whether the Northern Gateway
Building would be built after the flyover has been constructed, if 40
indeed it does go ahead?
MR CLINTON: No, again, my understanding from discussions would be that
the Northern Gateway Building if consented, would be built first
followed by the bridge, second. 45
Page 6088
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: Thank you for that. So you indicated earlier when we were
discussing the Wellington City Council document, Clinton 1, that it is
intended that cricket will be played – sorry, I will rephrase that
question.
5
Is it intended that cricket will be played at the Basin Reserve during the
period of construction?
MR CLINTON: Yes.
10
MR JONES: And will that include international cricket?
MR CLINTON: Possibly, yes.
MR JONES: And if international or for any cricket, domestic or international, 15
during the period that is played, during the period of construction, is it
intended that construction will stop while those matches are going
ahead?
MR CLINTON: I would imagine that there is going to have to be some very 20
careful management between the builders and the cricketers as such. I
mean, I could just draw on some observations, Adelaide Oval has just
recently completed a major refurbishment, I think well over half a
billion Australian dollars, and test cricket has continued to be played at
Adelaide Oval for the last couple of seasons while they have been 25
undertaking that work and even closer to home, I believe, AMI
Stadium in Christchurch, underwent considerable, this is obviously
prior to the earthquakes, underwent considerable capital works while
the cricket was still played so I think the two can still go hand in hand,
and that would be a possible option. 30
[4.00 pm]
MR JONES: Thank you for that, I have no further questions in that area.
35
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Jones. Ms Jones?
MS JONES: That’s fine, I’ve been slipping questions.
CHAIRPERSON: I know, I’ve notice that. Yes, Ms Wedde? 40
MS WEDDE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: And we appreciate you doing that.
45
Page 6089
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS WEDDE: Sir, I just have one question for Mr Clinton which relates to the
construction period.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5
MS WEDDE: I’m just conscious of time, the questions I have relate to matters
that are explicitly covered by the agreement between the Council, the
Trust and NZTA.
CHAIRPERSON: Which we’ve read, yes. 10
MS WEDDE: And you have read that. Well, in that case I’m not sure if I need
to ask questions at all.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, you can ask him if it – if he’s satisfied that they’re 15
adequately covered in the terms of agreement between the Trust and
NZTA and the Council.
MS WEDDE: Thank you, sir.
20
MR CLINTON: Yes. No, I’m sure they are, I don’t have a copy in front of me
I’m sorry, but - - -
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you could give him a copy to have a look at.
25
MS WEDDE: Yes.
MR CLINTON: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Also Mr Clinton there is going to be management plans if 30
the project is allowed and there are conditions relating to those which
I’m sure your counsel has - - -
MR CLINTON: Yes.
35
CHAIRPERSON: - - - has been keeping her eye on.
MR CLINTON: Yes.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WEDDE [4.01 pm] 40
MS WEDDE: Mr Clinton, could you please look at clause 6.2B - - -
MR CLINTON: Yes.
45
MS WEDDE: - - - of the agreement rather than the MOU, do you have that?
Page 6090
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR CLINTON: Right, thank you, yes.
MS WEDDE: And that clause reads that the licence will be subject to a
condition that no work on the mitigation will be carried out during any 5
international cricket period and if you look at clause 14 which provides
for definitions, can you see the definition of international cricket period
there?
MR CLINTON: Yes. 10
MS WEDDE: Does that assist with your answer, is there anything you’d like
to add with your previous answer?
MR CLINTON: Well, that the memorandum, the agreement, anticipates that 15
there will be no construction during international cricket matches.
MS WEDDE: Thank you, I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Wedde. 20
Ms Anderson.
MS ANDERSON: I’ve got no cross-examination on that topic.
25
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, so we move onto topic D.
MS ANDERSON: Did you want me to start on that topic, sir?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well it looks like you’ve agreed to divide that into two 30
sections, topic D is mitigation, the proposed mitigation and alternatives
including possible screening and the council are going to start the
questions relating to the proposed mitigation followed by Mr Jones or
Mrs Jones and then for the alternatives to mitigation, that’s the screens
I presume, Mr Jones will then ask some questions. 35
MS ANDERSON: If it makes easier, sir, I’m happy – because I only have two
sub-topics under here, to ask both of them, although the second one
technically relates to alternatives if that just makes it easier and then
I’m finished. 40
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
Page 6091
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDERSON [4.04 pm]
MS ANDERSON: If I could start with Dr Sanderson and your evidence-in-
chief, now you said in that the 45 metre Northern Gateway Building
will be adequate to avoid the distraction to batsmen, but I take it you 5
aren’t purporting in any sense to make that comment outside of your
ophthalmological expertise?
DR SANDERSON: Correct.
10
MS ANDERSON: And you’ve accepted that in your evidence, haven’t you,
that you have no expertise in playing cricket and haven’t had regard to
the expert cricket evidence when you formed your views, is that right?
DR SANDERSON: That’s right, I have actually played cricket, but I haven’t 15
got a – I couldn’t claim to be an expert for a minute.
MS ANDERSON: And I take it you would accept that the expert cricket
evidence is that from their perspective, a 65 metre Northern Gateway
Building is required for appropriate mitigation, you’re aware of that? 20
[4.05 pm]
MR SANDERSON: I am, yes.
25
MS ANDERSON: Anyone want to comment on that specific little topic? The
second area relates to the alternative of screening on the bridge itself,
and I wonder, starting with Mr Clinton, whether you have any views of
this alternative option of screening permanently attached to the
southern side of the bridge? 30
MR CLINTON: I am struggling to picture how permanent screening on the
southern side of the bridge would, first of all look. And then how will it
operate, functionally? We are not talking about screening the entire
bridge, are we? We are talking about screening the traffic, is that 35
correct?
MS ANDERSON: The evidence from Mr Hardwick-Smith is a 4.2 meter
screen from deck level along 90 meters of the bridge. So it would
equate to, effectively, the 65 meter northern gateway building length. 40
MR CLINTON: From deck level?
MS ANDERSON: From deck level of the bridge.
45
Page 6092
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR CLINTON: Oh, from deck level of the bridge, yes. So, it does not mitigate
the view of the bridge itself. It seeks to mitigate the view of the traffic.
MS ANDERSON: Correct.
5
MR CLINTON: Again, as with my early evidence, I do not see that as
satisfactory for all the reasons given in the evidence already. I think
that while it may have an impact in terms of reducing the visual of the
traffic flow itself, and that is still not necessarily my evidence, we are
still left with the issue of the spectator enjoyment of the ground and the 10
look and feel and the ambience of the ground, which is still subject to a
view of a flyover.
MS ANDERSON: And just before I open that up to comment, the second
option that has been asked from a number of the urban designers is this 15
option of, possibly whether temporary screening could be used on the
bridge when cricket is being played. For want of a better word, it gets
wheeled out while cricket’s on and wheeled back in when it is not.
Would you have any comments on that option?
20
MR CLINTON: Well again, I am just a little bit unsure as to how, logistically,
such an effort would work. I know from experience here at the basin,
when we do erect temporary structures that they are very time
consuming, they are expensive, and they are not always successful.
They always have got wind loading issues and engineering issues 25
around them. So I would think that – my immediate reaction to a
temporary screening option is that I would imagine it would be
expensive and, operationally, very difficult to actually put in place.
MS ANDERSON: And what sort of time period do you think that would be 30
up for?
MR CLINTON: Well we have teams arriving before test cricket, two to three
days ahead for training, but of course, we have cricket from mid-
October played here until as late as early to mid-April. So we are 35
probably looking at a calendar which has either temporary screening
there for the best part of that full period, the summer months, which
would be, effectively, six to seven months. Or, if it is going to be an up
and down type operation, then regularly up and down during that
period for, as I say in my evidence, 30 to 45 days of cricket, which – It 40
would have to be the former. I think it would have to be a structure that
was erected early to mid-October and actually remained in place until
early to mid-April. That is about as temporary as it could be, I would
think.
45
Page 6093
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS ANDERSON: And could I have comments on both of those topics from
anyone else, sorry, Sir John, could you just speak up a wee bit?
MR ANDERSON: There is the proposed alternative proposal of having screens
on the bridge, and the points you have made about ambience of the 5
ground, is not the point – and that will have a huge effect. I am not
going to use Martin’s term hideous, but it is something close to that.
The real aspect, it is not just six months, because during the summer – I
know we are talking cricket here, but we in the basin reserve have,
because we look after the ground all year, we have 9 or 10 senior club 10
games here. We have got soccer, we use the ground for training, for
international science and rugby.
[4.10 pm]
15
We will have play at the stadium, particularly. And again, if you are
kicking a football up in the air and that, you have got the same problem
of moving traffic again, if you are going to catch it, or fall back, or
wherever.
20
If you are going to do something, a temporary thing is never temporary.
It has got to be made permanent at some stage. And to me, the best
option to make it permanent up front, rather than just a temporary, I
think we still believe strongly, it will have a huge effect on the image
and the nature of the ground. If that so close to the ground, motorway is 25
there, whatever the alternative, sort of, temporary screening is.
MS ANDERSON: Did anyone else wish to comment on that option?
MR SNEDDON: You will hear the evidence you need to hear as to whether 30
or not, from an engineering point of view and a safety point of view,
the screening can be done. And whether that screening, then is effective
in terms of blocking out the view of the traffic, and if you reach a
decision that, yes, it is, then, you know, we would have to accept that
deals with the visual interference for a batsman and fielders. But it is 35
John’s point that then becomes by far the most important, and in this
option, you are talking about no mitigation, effectively. No mitigation
in terms of the ambience, and that is going to be a dominating feature,
and that is what is at risk with the ground and I do not need to repeat
what I said this morning, I think most of it was on that point. 40
MS ANDERSON: I have no further questions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Anderson. Mr Jones.
45
Page 6094
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONES [4.12 pm]
MR JONES: I have some questions, just to note, I have some questions about
the northern gateway building, I – yes, I have. – Sorry. I have some
questions about the northern gateway building. I may have a couple of 5
additional questions after that.
What proposals or decisions are there for the use of the northern
gateway building? The Basin Reserve Trust is, I should say, this is a
question initially to whichever of Sir John or Mr Neiley (ph 2.43) 10
would like to answer. The proposal covers a division between the fitout
which is the responsibility of the Basin Reserve Trust, I should say,
sorry, this is the agreement, and the construction, the responsibility of
NZTA. What does the Basin Reserve Trust intend that the uses of the
northern gateway building would be? 15
MR ANDERSON: (INDISTINCT 3.05) of the motorway.
MR JONES: In addition to that use, you have - - -
20
MR ANDERSON: Right, the informal discussions we have had, and secondly,
I have also with NZTA, in relation to whose responsibility was what, as
to the what were we getting in relation to mitigation and what was the
responsibility of Basin Reserve Trust, together with the council who
owns the land and their own building. 25
The first floor, the discussion has revolved around, it gives a far better
space for players to A, have changing rooms and B, players’ rooms. It
was in 1974 or 5, I remember we put up the players; room just at the
end of this building here. And that was satisfactory for those times, but 30
it is not satisfactory now where the New Zealand team sort of takes
over the top of that floor and like, the English teams are in the bottom
of the public, literally being able to come in and out of that room. And
while it is a nice building, this will give the opportunity to have proper
facilities which the batsmen can come out of, come in and they have 35
showering facilities and everything.
[4.15 pm]
In terms of the second floor, we believe it is community use. And in 40
that way, it is not necessarily purely on cricket. On cricket days, I am
sure that there will be use found for it, but we have not gone any further
to do it. We know we have a facility there which we will find a
purpose thing and I mentioned before talking to the university about
holding various things during the week and using that facility could be 45
Page 6095
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
good for the ground. It brings people in and out. It’s connecting the
community and whatever else.
If cricket or other aspects want to have a good room which they can
hold board meetings or other meetings or discussions or brief 5
presentations – this is a long narrow space so you’d have to plan that.
But that’s as far as we’ve gone. It appears at this stage that the ground
floor will have to have some – you’ve got to get from the bank around
to the gates. So there’s got to be a passageway there. How we work
that out. But again we haven’t got the designs so I’m not quite sure 10
how that’s going to be configured. Those are where we’ve got to in
saying right well this is mitigation and there is a purpose for it and
we’ll use it for the good of the community and cricket and the ground
in general.
15
MR JONES: So if we could call up for a minute BB.75 joint witness statement
on urban design landscape and visual? And look at point 46 in that
statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what are you pulling up? 20
MR JONES: BB.75. That’s the joint witness statement on urban design. And
point 46. There we go, thank you. So point 46 states, “there is
agreement that if a bridge” – and agreement obviously by the experts
who signed this statement – “there is agreement that if a bridge is 25
declined by the Board that there should be no more Northern Gateway
Building”. Sir John initially and then anybody else who wishes to
comment, do you agree with the agreed statement by the urban design,
landscape and visual witnesses?
30
SIR ANDERSON: Yes I do.
MR JONES: You do yes. So you would only proceed with the Northern
Gateway Building on the basis that it was needed to mitigate the
proposed flyover? 35
SIR ANDERSON: Absolutely.
MR JONES: If you had the option to do so – if the Trust or the Wellington
City Council were able to do so, would you provide the player and 40
other facilities that you’ve discussed in that location where the
Northern Gateway Building is or would you provide them in a different
location within the ground?
45
Page 6096
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
SIR ANDERSON: Well I can’t – we haven’t considered that at all. At the
moment we do have players’ changing rooms in this building and those
have all been done up and they’re up to international standards but then
the viewing is in that building over there. You might say that would
still carry on. We wouldn’t deliberately build a building in that space 5
just for the players.
MR JONES: So in your view what would be the disadvantages of building a
building in that space?
10
SIR ANDERSON: Well it’s very narrow. And we’ve actually only got – it’s
neither one thing nor the other. It’s a long narrow building. And as a
pavilion and built as the design’s outlook it fits in with the ambience of
the ground and it is a mitigation situation. We would not build that
now. Let me put it differently. It comes back to the future 15
management plan of the ground which is underway at the moment
which I chair with the City Council and that’s the master plan for the
ground.
[4.20 pm] 20
And we’ve got other things to look at around here with the Museum
Stand which of course is not being used at the moment because of
earthquake which we have to do something about. So there’s a lot of
other options to look at before we could say let’s just do something, 25
build a building for the players when we’ve got adequate facilities to do
it here.
MR JONES: Since you’ve mentioned the Museum Stand, I’ll just ask is there
any relationship between – sorry, I’ll go back one step. It is correct is it 30
not that the Northern Gateway Building is not intended to provide
general spectator seating?
SIR ANDERSON: No it’s not.
35
MR JONES: There might perhaps at most be some corporate boxes? Is that a
possibility?
SIR ANDERSON: No we haven’t discussed that.
40
MR JONES: Right so in other words the Northern Gateway Building would
do nothing to make up for the spectator seating capacity that’s currently
been lost because the Museum Stand is out of action?
SIR ANDERSON: As I say there’s going to be no formal spectator paying 45
seats aspect of that building under the present thinking.
Page 6097
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR JONES: And so it would be true to say that the fate of the Museum Stand
is entirely independent from whether or not a Northern Gateway
Building is constructed?
5
SIR ANDERSON: Totally independent.
MR JONES: Thank you for that. See if I have anything else there. Sir, just a
point – am I able to refer to Mr Well’s evidence? The cricket witness
who was unable to be here. 10
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you’re entitled to put any comment in that to one of
these for their comment.
MR JONES: Thank you, sir. In his evidence Mr Wells, who unfortunately 15
was unable to be with us today, states – this is 4.3 on page 4 – “crucial
to the maintenance of international cricket status will be” – I’ll skip that
bit. “Should mitigation of the proposed flyover involve the building it
should be noted that a modern player lounge with media facilities and
covered seating is potentially crucial to maintaining the international 20
status of the ground. The best location for such a lounge is at either
end of the pitch looking directly down the pitch not across it”. Sir
John, would you agree with Mr Wells that the best location for a
modern player lounge and media facilities is at either end of the pitch?
25
SIR ANDERSON: To deal firstly with the media facilities, yes they are
behind the pitch and are modern and are upstairs. We don’t need new
media facilities and they were prepared again for the international
matches and tours that came out. In terms of a players lounge, by and
large we’ve got that in the building we’ve got which is slightly off 30
kilter – is it 6 or 7 you’re going to use for the test match? Fixed
number. But you can actually look straight down the pitch from that
players viewing. So he’s got that anyway.
MR NEELY: Could I just point out that those media facilities upstairs cost the 35
Basin Reserve Trust $307,000 and they were built about 3 or 4 years
ago.
MR JONES: What’s the intended – if the Northern Gateway Building is built
what would happen to the current players' pavilion? 40
SIR ANDERSON: If it was built it would stay.
MR JONES: And it would be used for? You may have stated this before and
I didn’t get it clear. Is it to be used for one of the teams while the other 45
team would be in the Northern Gateway Building?
Page 6098
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
SIR ANDERSON: That’s a choice.
MR JONES: But that’s not yet been decided?
5
SIR ANDERSON: No.
MR CLINTON: Excuse me. I think Sir John’s obviously entirely correct.
There hasn’t been too many decisions made on the future of those
buildings but I think the opportunity presented by the Northern 10
Gateway Building if it’s consented is one of flexibility around the
ground so as we’ve heard the demands of the particularly international
cricket game are getting larger and larger, and there’s more people
associated with the event. There are more requirements around the
technology associated with broadcasters and camera work and so forth 15
so I think it’s too early for us to explain exactly what building A or
building B or the rooms within those buildings might look like. But
they do present an opportunity for flexibility which we currently don’t
have because we have a very fixed building here. Although having
said that we have expanded the changing rooms downstairs quite 20
markedly.
But just to pick up on one point made a moment ago about the
proposed Northern Gateway Building, operationally one of the
attractions of it is the ability to secure the players and the match 25
officials very, very carefully and easily and quickly.
[4.25 pm]
Which is, even though not necessarily New Zealand, it’s an issue and it 30
certainly is in the international cricket community but currently the
players enter this building through the rear foyer which is where
everyone came in this morning, so you have got players and officials
coming in with the public through the rear doors, which isn’t
necessarily ideal. They go down through the central corridor there, the 35
stairs, and then they exit to the field down there at ground level, again
with players and spectators walking around. So we have multiple
points where we have some issues around security of players, access to
officials et cetera so the Northern Gateway Building as an isolated
building presents an opportunity there to actually be able to secure 40
those personnel in a very quick and efficient manner.
MR JONES: Well, perhaps then I will ask you the same question as I asked
Sir John. Do you agree with the statement that we called up a little
earlier on the joint witness statement on urban design, landscape and 45
Page 6099
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
visual that if the bridge is declined by the Board there should be no
Northern Gateway Building?
MR CLINTON: Yes.
5
MR JONES: So even despite those advantages you think it should not proceed
unless?
MR CLINTON: There is no flyover, yes.
10
MR JONES: Right. So no need for the Northern Gateway Building if this
project does not go ahead?
MR CLINTON: Correct.
15
MR JONES: Does anybody else have comments on those matters?
MR NEELY: Just that that was the original thinking of the board when it first
came forward, that the building of a flyover would necessitate
something screening it off and if there was no flyover we just carry on 20
as we are now and we just spent $110,000 doing up downstairs for the
players and their support areas, and perhaps Jason Wells’ (ph 2.00)
comment is written that he hasn’t seen inside the new facilities
downstairs.
25
MR JONES: I am sorry, I don’t know the answer to that. Does anybody else
want to comment on that specific point on whether in their view the
Northern Gateway Building should go ahead if the flyover does not go
ahead?
30
I will just check, I think that may be it. I have no further questions, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, thank you very much, Mr Jones. Dare I ask,
Ms Jones, if you - - -
35
MS JONES: I have none.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Wedde?
MS WEDDE: Sir, I don’t think I have any questions, I am just waiting on 40
Mr Cameron to confirm. No questions, thank you, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Any re-examination?
MS……….: No, thank you, sir. 45
Page 6100
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baines, have you any questions you would like to ask?
MR BAINES: I am just having a look because in fact most of them have been
asked already. I did actually have one, well, I know I have got one
question for Mr Clinton. I mean you mentioned several times I think 5
about other events and activities and it made me think that I am not
sure I have a very clear idea of the extent and significance of some of
these other events and activities, although they have been mentioned,
school activities and so on. I realise the other sporting codes but you
have mentioned a number of other ones to do with concerts and Carols 10
by Candlelight and so on. Where can we get some good information
that summarises, you know, the extent of those uses of the Basin
Reserve?
MR CLINTON: Those details through Council. 15
MR BAINES: Is it sort of automatically summarised somewhere every - - -
MR CLINTON: No, it’s not necessarily auto-, I can collect together the last
five to 10 years of events if that’s helpful. The issue of events has 20
changed somewhat in the last few years because everyone who wants
to have a music festival or a food and wine festival in Wellington wants
to have it in February or March, which is obviously the very heavy
cricket programme, so it just can’t be accommodated.
25
Carols by Candlelight was a one-off although initially we were talking
longer term but that was in December obviously, early December,
when we could fit it through the cricket programme. The Symphony
Orchestra arrived when Government House was being renovated and
was out of action for three or four years, so they generally host that so 30
we were a backup for that.
[4.30 pm]
And some of the other events were one-off events. The Summerset 35
Music Festival I think ran for four years in April, each April. Again
that was post- cricket season, to allow them access to the field which
they needed, but as an event venue there are significant risks having an
outdoor event in Wellington, which I’m happily reminded of every
time I speak to these promoters, and as I say everyone’s looking for the 40
months of February or March which are very unlikely to be
accommodated, given the heavy international cricket calendar through
those dates.
45
Page 6101
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
There is up to nine club rugby Saturdays contracted with the
Wellington Rugby Football Union and they generally start mid to late
May and go through to early to mid-August and then we're into spring
an we're back to renovating our grounds then.
5
MR BAINES: Right. But some of the – the picture I got from what you’ve
said is that some of those were one-offs that may or may not happen
again in the future?
MR CLINTON: That’s correct. 10
MR BAINES: But others may have and it strikes me that you probably get
quite large numbers of people at some of those.
MR CLINTON: Yes, well that I don’t think is - - - 15
MR BAINES: Probably larger than a test match.
MR CLINTON: Beg your pardon?
20
MR BAINES: On one day anyway.
MR CLINTON: Yes, yes.
MR BAINES: If everyone’s out in the - - - 25
MR CLINTON: Yes. I think we had – I’d be guessing – I think we had 15,000
people for Carols by Candlelight, sitting on the grass.
There are discussions at the moment involving the Basin for the Anzac 30
Day 100 centenary celebrations next year and there’s talk of between
10 and 20,000 people attending that here at the Basin.
So the Basin makes itself available through the Trust, to various users,
but as I say, it’s always a balancing act between the availability of the 35
ground against what exactly the promoters or the event managers are
looking for themselves.
MR BAINES: Right. If there was some information that could be reasonably
briefly summarised in a page or two about the events, how regular they 40
have been, particularly ones that are on-going rather than sort of one-
offs and the sorts of numbers of people attending I’d find that helpful,
just to fill in some of the picture.
MS ANDERSON: There is a summary at 1.24 to 1.26 of his evidence-in-chief 45
in a generic sense, but there aren’t things like the details of numbers.
Page 6102
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR BAINES: Yes, well I was interested in sort of the, if you like, the scale of
use.
MS ANDERSON: Certainly. 5
MR COLLINS: I was going to ask the same question, but particularly in
relation to the number of days or part-days when the Basins closed to
the public, because we’ve heard a lot about the benefit of people being
able to cycle or walk through. 10
MR CLINTON: Yes.
MR COLLINS: Is that a thing you could tell us now or perhaps come back to
it through counsel, just roughly the sort of number of days, a year it’s 15
closed.
MR CLINTON: It’s only closed, it’s ever only closed for paid spectator
events, so that would be cricket matches at the moment or, as I
mentioned before, those music concerts that are held here. 20
The Reserves Act which is the governing legislation across the ground,
provides the venue authority with the ability to close it off for up to, I
think it’s six days in a continuum, which we do for the test match, so
it’s not closed and reopened at the end of each evening, it’s lockdown 25
across a whole test match and that’s because obviously there’s
broadcasting cameras and so forth in here throughout the whole period.
But other than the cricket matches currently, which are paid entry for
all but our first class competition which is free, it’s open access, it 30
would be open access for pedestrians and cyclists, yes, so we're only
talking less than 20 days a year.
MR COLLINS: Okay.
35
MR CLINTON: Yes. In fact, it may be as few as 12 to 15 days a year, where
it’s actually closed.
MR COLLINS: And who determines that, it to be closed?
40
MR CLINTON: The venue authority.
MR COLLINS: Venue authority.
MR CLINTON: Which is the Basin Reserve Trust. 45
Page 6103
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR COLLINS: Yes.
MR CLINTON: Yes.
MR COLLINS: Yes, thanks. 5
MR BAINES: Sorry, I was making notes I didn’t quite – but on those dates,
for example test matches, play usually begins at 10.
MR CLINTON: I beg your pardon. 10
MR BAINES: Test match days, play usually begins 10 o'clock, 10.30, 11
o'clock doesn’t it?
MR CLINTON: Yes, but we would close the ground the evening before the 15
test match, we would lock it down - - -
MR BAINES: It’ll be closed all morning, is it?
MR CLINTON: - - - all the way through six days, so they can finish the test 20
match.
MR BAINES: Okay, totally closed, so it’s not - - -
MR CLINTON: Yes. 25
MR BAINES: - - - not opened for pedestrian – commuter pedestrians?
MR CLINTON: No.
30
MR BAINES: Okay.
MR CLINTON: No it’s closed – security are posted etcetera, yes.
MR BAINES: Okay, thank you. I’ve got two or three other – well one other 35
point of clarification, one for Sir John, I just want to get some
clarification on this, sir, I’m talking about the ITC accreditation matter
here and one of the – the potential triggers is major renovation, would I
be right in thinking that that such renovations actually have to be on the
Basin Reserve land itself, I mean they don’t have jurisdiction over 40
renovations that take place outside the Reserve or is that something that
could be conceived.
Page 6104
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
[4.35 pm]
SIR ANDERSON: The actual wording is more than 25 per cent of the venue
has been renovated and I would suggest the venue would not include
the outside, so that is the way I would interpret that if I was going 5
strictly to the rules.
MR BAINES: Right, okay. So, in fact, I mean, if, for example, NZTA were
granted the consent and allowed to build the bridge, that is actually not
a renovation so far as the Basin Reserve is concerned, is it, because it 10
would be entirely outside, I am not talking about the Northern Gateway
building, I am simply talking about the bridge structure?
SIR ANDERSON: Yes, but then under the other clauses you might lose - - -
15
MR BAINES: The ambience effects, yes, I understand that, I just wanted to
be clear on that point about the triggers, if you like.
A couple of other questions, we have had considerable discussion and
evidence put before us from the urban design and landscape people 20
about the value should the bridge go ahead with the Northern Gateway
building, the value attached to having views of the ground at ground
level underneath the Northern Gateway building, are you familiar with
what I am talking about there?
25
SIR ANDERSON: Yes.
MR BAINES: And considerable importance has been attached to that by
some people, and I am just wondering, is that something that the Basin
Reserve Trust has, if you like, received submissions on quite 30
independently, so in other words, have people said “Look, can you
please open up the Basin Reserve so we can see the nice green grass
there, you know, because it would add to our sense of appreciation of
it?”, has that ever come up as a matter of discussion?
35
SIR ANDERSON: Well, firstly, just from the public, from everyone else, it
has never come up.
MR BAINES: It has never come up.
40
SIR ANDERSON: In terms of the urban design, one urban designer suggested
and suggested you had a chicken wire there to do it, it runs into huge
security problems and then you have got to of course screen it off in
some formal fashion when you have got to play games, it becomes very
difficult. So, we really have again, with the design side of it, we 45
haven’t really gone very popular on that, the council might have a
Page 6105
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
different view and of course the council own the ground and if we are
going to do anything in terms of that ground situation, we would
always just do it hand in hand with the council. Because you know,
they have the trustee.
5
MR BAINES: Well, to be fair to the suggestions that were made, they were
certainly acknowledging the need to be able to screen it off during the
play sets, but as I was saying, we have heard quite a lot about the value
of being able to have these ground level views and I think it is useful to
see whether or not that has been part of this thing? 10
SIR ANDERSON: Well, when that was first suggested and the then
Wellington City Council representative commented that if you come
down from Courtenay Place to the Basin, all you will see in actual fact
is this bloody great flyover and great concrete pillars to each side and 15
whatever else. And secondly, you would have a – this is a terrific
traffic space coming down, a lot of people are focusing on changing
lanes, they are focusing on doing – so it is actually could be a huge
traffic hazard and the only good comment really was that if someone is
walking down this way through the middle channel reserve park, you 20
can get a view, but there is not an awful lot of people that actually walk
down here, you know, from day to day.
So, while it might be good in theory, in practice there are a lot of risks
involved, which would need to be looked at. 25
MR BAINES: Right, thank you, one last question, we have also heard quite a
lot about the – on the first hand the fact that certain parts of the broader
Sussex Square has been being previously the, you know, the wider area
around the Basin Reserve and the perimeter of the Basin Reserve has 30
perhaps suffered from some lack of attention over the years because of
the uncertainties about what is going to happen and so on, and to
counter that the value of an improved plaza and we’ve all seen the
diagrams and the truescapes of what’s going to happen outside the
entranceway. Do you have any comment on the relevance of that or 35
significance of that in terms of patronage at Basin Reserve events?
[4.40 pm]
MR NEELY: I think that the drawings we’ve seen makes one think of coming 40
into a forest, a nice park, some interesting planting by weeds – well I’d
call them weeds, but I’m sorry about that, but just interesting gardening
looks. And I think that would be so much better than what is there
now, so much better, if that is done as well as I think the plans put
forward by the architects that I followed. 45
Page 6106
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR BAINES: Right. Has there been any discussion between the Basin
Reserve Trust and the Wellington City Council about – come on folks
can we clean up this entry way?
MR NEELY: No. 5
MR BAINES: No. Thank you very much, I’ve got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Collins?
10
MR COLLINS: Just a couple more. The proposal is to move the Dempster
Gate and put it across next to the Red Gate, and we’re going to hear
from heritage experts about that, because both the gates are recognised
heritage features. But I’m interested in the views of any of you as to
the importance of the Dempster Gate and where it is for players and/or 15
spectators. Any views on that?
MR CLINTON: I’m not aware of any player’s views necessarily. I think
cricket grounds – Don Neely might have mentioned this in his evidence
earlier, cricket grounds around the world are relatively well known for 20
having land marks within in them, which are named after players or
previous people associated with the game, the Basin is no different. So
there’s a certain historic charm about recognising both of those former
players with those gates.
25
I’m not entirely familiar with what is proposed around the actual
transitioning of the gate house itself, but I think from a patronage point
of view, and as we mentioned before Mr Baines, with the plaza entry, I
think there is an opportunity to create quite a nice welcoming for
patrons, and I’d like to think of that as one of the outcomes if we get 30
that far with the process that somewhere within that design we reflect a
suitable entry into what is a high quality cricket ground obviously.
So I’d be interested to know or to learn in time what is proposed for the
actual relocation of that gate house. But I can tell you from an 35
operational point of view they’re not particularly functional, they are
each, I think at least 80 years old now. They’re not in a great state of
repair, there is problems with the electricity within them when we have
to run eftpos facilities and ticketing facilities and so forth, and they’re
not even particularly wide. So actually people struggle to get through 40
them these days, and I’ve seen people negotiate them on their
pushbikes, and the terrible outcomes. So I think the opportunity will be
there to have a look at their functionality as well as the actual identity
that they bring to the ground. That’s my comment on the gate houses
at the moment. 45
Page 6107
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR COLLINS: Anybody else want to comment?
SIR ANDERSON: It does actually assist in the flow of spectators coming in
particular test matches where you get a line from there running right
round as we had in the last test match. But Peter is right, leaving aside 5
if the heritage sort of touch, they’re really out-dated and should be
replaced if one was being truly professional about it.
MR NEELY: That would make it a more enjoyable experience for about 60
percent of people who come into the test match come in through those 10
gates there.
MR COLLINS: So it might assist to have both the gates at one end providing
more capacity and a new facility at the other end.
15
SIR ANDERSON: Yes.
MR NEELY: Yes.
MR COLLINS: As it happens at the moment, the proposal is for a new facility 20
at the north end.
MR NEELY: Yes.
MR COLLINS: Which actually has the most entrance anyway. 25
MR CLINTON: Yes, and the numbers are actually higher than this, it’s about
75 to 80 percent of the patrons access from the northern end for both
international and domestic cricket.
30
[4.45 pm]
MR COLLINS: Okay, and just a final question from me. There was quite a bit
of discussion this morning about the visibility of traffic from inside the
Basin, and my understanding now is that some traffic is visible even 35
from the playing surface, higher vehicles and odd glimpses and so on,
but less than you would imagine if you walk out there now, because on
game days you have big marquees over here and you have other
screens over there and – is that right.
40
Does everybody sort of agree that that is the general impression, there
are big glimpses perhaps at the moment and in the future if there was a
bridge, the proposed building would block, completely block that part
of it and there has been some discussion about what happens in the
corner. And I think one of you indicated there is the possibility of 45
Page 6108
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
putting a marquee or two over there but there seemed to be agreement
that the trees are very important to provide permanent mitigation.
Most of the discussion has been about the concerns for players but I
think a couple of people have mentioned in evidence the need to – I 5
think more than a couple actually – have mentioned the need to be
mindful of the spectators and the particular ambience of this place.
Can I ask that you put up simulation 12.13 which I think is probably
the worst case simulation we have, 12.13 which is the view from the 10
top of the Museum Stand bearing in mind that is further around, so it is
probably worse than the view from this stand, after 10 years, so 10
years growth on the trees. If that can go on the screen, and I will just
ask if anybody wants to comment about that from a spectator’s point of
view. 15
It is probably difficult for you to see really but when you look at the
hard copy which is actually easier to look at, there is a clear view from
that height of the flyover.
20
MR NEELY: My comment is that - - -
MR COLLINS: It is the worst case?
MR NEELY: Yes, definitely. You are very high there and we haven’t had 25
any spectators in the Museum Stand since about 2011/12 I think since it
has been closed. So that simulates 10 years of growth does it, on the
embankment?
MR COLLINS: That is after 10 years. 30
MR NEELY: Yes. My initial reaction is that those pohutukawas are doing
quite a good job there and that is really what the Trust has been seeking
for some time and the planting of the new pohutukawas is intended to
achieve that as well so the idea being that the embankment will 35
continue to be a very relaxed informal space within the ground, and
obviously trees are a nice element of that and if they can grow and
become larger without being unwieldy, then I think that would be a
good outcome for the venue.
40
And as I say, most people – I mean traditionally, within this ground,
most people will sit on the – I think the embankment can hold about
4,000, 4,000 to 5,000, these western terraces are about one to 2,000 I
think, the Vance Stand itself has seating capacity for just under a 1,000
– I can’t do my maths right not but with an 8,000 capacity, you know, 45
50 percent of the crowd is actually seated on that eastern embankment
Page 6109
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
and they will obviously be looking back away from any proposed
flyover. It will be the one to 2,000 on this side of the ground and in the
Vance stand that will have site of the proposed flyover.
MR COLLINS: Does anybody else want to comment. 5
MR NEELY: My only other comment is that with the trees, and the William
Wakefield Memorial, a Corinthian temple, it is the first place that
visitors to Wellington go who are coming into the ground, head for
that, it is like a magnet and shall we mention the Barmy Army, they 10
centre themselves on that and spread that way, and it’s great.
Absolutely been marvellous and no other test venue in the world gives
us this ambience of trees and accepted by the public sitting there in a
beach hat and a pair of shorts and just enjoying the day’s sun. It’s a
wonderful facility. 15
[4.50 pm]
MR COLLINS: Yes I appreciate that but what I was really asking was looking
at this view being the worst case of where a spectator can get to do you 20
believe that would be of concern to spectators? Would they be happy
to see the flyover or would they perhaps move down somewhere else
where you don’t need to see it?
MR CLINTON: I think spectators would move so they didn’t have to view 25
the flyover. There’s plenty of capacity at a lower level, even at ground
level to sit and watch the cricket. You don’t have to go up that high
necessarily.
MR NEELY: And who knows that may not be there in two years’ time. 30
Depending on what the new plan will be.
MR COLLINS: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Collins. 35
MR McMAHON: Thank you, sir. It’s that very last question that I just wanted
to ask Mr Neely some questions about. Mr Neely, in the extract from
the Trust document you or whoever wrote this indicated that one of the
major challenges facing the Trust was the future of the Museum Stand. 40
And it’s been closed since 2011/2012 for spectators. This document
indicates that a decision on the future of the stand was expected in
September 2012. I presume that a decision hasn’t yet been made on - -
-
45
Page 6110
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR NEELY: No the City Council have to straighten out the town hall and
that’s now sitting at something like strengthening of $40 million. We
had some earlier figures on the strengthening of the Museum Stand and
they would say, yes it could be strengthened and the figure was
between $4 and $8 million spent on strengthening it, but it still 5
wouldn’t get a certificate to let people sit in it. And that’s where it
stopped because the over bridge was taking everybody’s time and
rather than confuse the matter – and that’s what the new planning will
do for the Basin. It will probably be one of the first things is when has
the City Council got some money to either remove it, take the top off it, 10
whatever they want to do with it. And that’s when we’ll get an answer.
MR McMAHON: So it’s a City Council asset is it?
MR NEELY: It’s a City Council asset, yes. 15
MR McMAHON: And so the matter’s still in abeyance?
MR CLINTON: Well the master plan committee has just been formed. As I
mentioned before I’m chair of that and it has members from the City 20
Council and the Basin Reserve Trust and we will be looking at the
whole ground master plan and the Museum Stand in particular as to
what options there are as to what’s available. I won’t go through the
options but - - -
25
MR McMAHON: Sir John, what are the range of options?
SIR ANDERSON: Well you could start from you scrub it completely to
strengthen it, but you’ve got to strengthen it to a level properly there.
It’s still being used downstairs where the museum is. You could 30
remove the roof which is highly dangerous for earthquakes and it’s still
damaged as you might say. And I’m sure there’s other options that will
come out of that as well.
MR McMAHON: I was interested to hear you mention the management plan 35
earlier and you’ve just repeated it again now. There was some
criticism in the early days of the hearing that there was an absence of
any management plan for the Reserve. Has this been a more recent
initiative?
40
SIR ANDERSON: Yes it’s in line with – for example the stadia board which
I’m on has just completed the master plan for the stadium.
MR McMAHON: Is this some master plan per se or would it form the basis of
a reserved management plan under the Reserves Act? 45
Page 6111
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
SIR ANDERSON: Not it’s a master plan as to what alternatives the Basin has.
MR McMAHON: Yes. Okay. Just a question of clarification for both
yourself Sir John and Mr Clinton. Mr Jones I think read you the
paragraph 46 from the joint witness statement regarding whether there 5
should be a Northern Gateway Building if the bridge proposal doesn’t
proceed. I think you both said no.
SIR ANDERSON: That’s right.
10
MR McMAHON: Can I just clarify. Was that – were you saying that there
should be – because you view the Northern Gateway Building as
mitigation you’re simply confirming that there’s no need for any
mitigation. Is that what you’re saying?
15
[4.55 pm]
SIR ANDERSON: No what I was saying is if there was no flyover, no bridge
there would be no reason at this stage to build the Northern Gateway
Building, and we definitely wouldn’t build it until the master plan had 20
been done, if we were going to consider that.
MR McMAHON: I understand. And that’s your view, Mr Clinton?
MR CLINTON: Yes. 25
MR McMAHON: Yes. You’re not precluding the possibility of a building for
cricket purpose at some future stage in the period covered by the master
plan, are you?
30
MR CLINTON: It’s never been considered, no.
MR McMAHON: No sorry, I’ll ask that question again, you’re not precluding
the possibility of a future building being identified in the master plan
are you at some future point in time? 35
SIR ANDERSON: I’m just trying to get my head around it – the points we
haven’t had a discussion a yet, we meet in the next couple of weeks for
the whole month.
40
MR McMAHON: Yes.
SIR ANDERSON: Now we’ve also got someone to – nothing will be
precluded in the ground at all, now whether it’ll be considered –
whether it’ll be raised or not is another matter. 45
Page 6112
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MR McMAHON: Yes. Mr Clinton, do you?
MR CLINTON: Yes, we agree.
MR McMAHON: And just finally, Sir John or Mr Sneddon, in terms of the 5
ICC parameters for “fit for purpose stadia”, have you got any recent
examples or any do you – to your knowledge have there been any
examples where the ICC have invoked the clause relating to “fit for
purpose” around the world?
10
MR SNEDDON: I’ve been out of the ICC for seven or eight years doing other
things, but I’ve got recollections of them stepping in and preventing
test matches being played in India and the West Indies, but I just don’t
– I can’t recall the exact details right at the moment.
15
MR McMAHON: Okay.
MR SNEDDON: And it’s to do with, usually to do with player related
facilities when that’s happened. But in fact the IC – actually I’ve got a
specific example, during Cricket World Cup 2011, which was hosted in 20
India and other Asian countries, the ICC made a decision a few months
before the tournament not to allow the tournament matches scheduled
for Calcutta to go there because of inadequate facilities, so those
matches got shifted elsewhere.
25
So it is, you know, it’s something that is actively worked by the ICC,
you’ve got a – host countries have got to stay on top of their facilities.
MR McMAHON: Thank you. Mr Clinton?
30
MR CLINTON: Sir, 2005 Hamilton, Seddon Park, hosted some cricket but
the wicket block itself was poor and so New Zealand Cricket, not the
ICC I understand, New Zealand Cricket made the decision to withdraw
all cricket from that ground, and actually was the Basin that picked up a
one day match against Australia, that’s the last time the Basin has held 35
a one day cricket match.
MR McMAHON: 2005?
MR CLINTON: 2005 and that was a result of a very late decision to take the 40
game away from Seddon Park in Hamilton.
MR McMAHON: Thank you, all, thank you, thank you, sir.
45
Page 6113
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr McMahon. I have no questions thank
you gentlemen, I’ll like to thank you all very much for coming along
here today, you’re all busy people and we appreciate you giving of
your time in coming and informing us on what is a very important issue
in this case. 5
I must say and I reiterate what I said this morning, that it’s been a lot
more pleasant than listening to engineering evidence or even landscape
evidence. Cricket is something all of us can relate to and I know three
of us have played it at various levels during school and university and 10
thereafter with varying degrees of success, but I must say my very slow
gentle off spins were not very effective.
What I would like to say is this, that we all have rich memories of
cricket being part of our national and predominant sport in the summer, 15
and apart from those of us who have played it, we have rich memories
of carting the transistor around particularly when tests are on and
nothing was ever done around the house or in the garden without the
transistor by your side, so it’s good memories.
20
Today after tomorrow we have a day off from hearing tomorrow. We
go to economics, so that’s not going to be very interesting, so thank
you all very much indeed and thank you for giving us of your time and
your expertise and we do appreciate it.
25
MR CAMERON: Sir, we just have one point of clarification on an issue that
arise earlier in the hearing, I think it only proper that the matter be
clarified an Ms Wedde has two questions, if she could please be given
permission to ask those questions?
30
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR CAMERON: Yes.
MS WEDDE: Yes, apologies, sir, I missed this before. This is a question for 35
any of the Basin Reserve Trust witnesses.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WEDDE [5.00 pm]
MS WEDDE: In the south-western corner of the Basin Reserve, I believe 40
there are some practicing nets. Mr Clinton, are you happy to answer
these questions?
MR CLINTON: Yes.
45
Page 6114
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
MS WEDDE: My understanding is that they were placed there to meet ICC
requirements. Is that correct?
MR CLINTON: I think, technically, we heard that the ICC was starting to
introduce a policy of having practice facilities available off field, so 5
before then we only had practice facilities available on the oval and the
problem of that, of course, is once the game started there was nowhere
available on grass wickets for the players to train and practice.
So in anticipation of that policy coming in the Trust moved first, if you 10
like, and secured the funding for off field practice facilities.
I am not actually aware, they are very common now, this was I think
about five years ago, they would be very common around the world, off
field practice facilities, there may only be a couple of grounds left that 15
still don’t have them, I couldn’t confirm one way or the other whether
they are an absolute requirement, but my suggestion is if they are not,
then they will be in time.
MS WEDDE: Thank you, no further questions. Thank you. 20
<THE WITNESSES WITHDREW [5.01 pm]
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Wedde. Sorry, there is one other small
housekeeping matter. We note in the list of topics that are being 25
contemporaneously heard, that social is not there and shouldn’t they be
there.
MR CAMERON: We have turned our mind to that and had concluded
because the person with whom the NZTA witnesses to caucus is not an 30
expert witness, that created some issues. If I could perhaps think about
that further tomorrow, sir, and come back to the Board on Wednesday
morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. 35
MR CAMERON: That was the reasoning I think that has been applied to that
point.
CHAIRPERSON: Well what is an expert and what isn’t an expert I suppose. 40
People with experience can still have something to offer.
MR CAMERON: That isn’t in dispute, we are not challenging the fact that the
person is to give evidence and obviously, who have used or people will
wish to have regard to their views in the way that they have any other 45
witness.
Page 6115
Basin Reserve, Wellington 05.05.14
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR CAMERON: It is a question of whether or not it was appropriate in those
circumstances for those two witnesses to be heard contemporaneously, 5
but if the Board has a view on it - - -
CHAIRPERSON: We will leave it with counsel and see if you can resolve it
first.
10
MR CAMERON: As your Honour pleases. I will come back to you
Wednesday morning on that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will adjourn until Wednesday morning at 9.30.
15
MATTER ADJOURNED AT 5.03 PM UNTIL
WEDNESDAY, 7 MAY 2014