transcript of proceedings · 2020-04-24 · transcript of proceedings o/n h-1188258 mr b. walker...

.RUBY PRINCESS INQUIRY 23.4.20R1 P-115

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N H-1188258

MR B. WALKER SC, Commissioner

IN THE MATTER OF A SPECIAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY

INTO THE RUBY PRINCESS

SYDNEY

10.00 AM, THURSDAY, 23 APRIL 2020

Continued from 22.4.20

DAY 2

MR R. BEASLEY SC appears with MR N. KIRBY as counsel assisting the

Commission

MR D. McLURE appears with MR G. O’MAHONEY for Princess Cruise Lines Ltd,

Carnival PLC, Dr Von Watzdorf and Mr Verwaal

MS G. FURNESS SC appears with MS K. LINDEMAN for the Health Administration

Corporation

.RUBY PRINCESS INQUIRY 23.4.20R1 P-116 C. VERWAAL XN

MR BEASLEY SC

COMMISSIONER: Good morning. Before the evidence starts, could I draw to

attention that on the website of this Special Commission there is a statement from me

in answer to some public commentary yesterday suggesting that there had been some

inappropriate concealment of the fact and timing of yesterday’s hearing. I’m not

going to repeat everything in the statement. It suffices to say that I reject that 5

suggestion completely. It seems to be based upon badly mistaken premises. The two

I wish to emphasise are these: this Special Commission is conducted independently

of anyone in the executive government. The role of the executive government is the

funding of this Commission, which role does not include any control or direction

over operational decisions such as when to have hearings. 10

The second thing, which I would have thought was obvious now from what is

publicly known, is that the timing of the hearing yesterday and the identity of the

witnesses yesterday and today depend entirely upon the fact that the ship was

unexpectedly longer detained within New South Wales waters than had been 15

understood as recently as last weekend. Whether or not witnesses could in fact be

summonsed in time to permit them to be heard at hearings of this Commission was

doubtful until they were in fact served, which did not occur until the day before the

hearing in question. On any view of it, that is urgent and prompt action by this

Commission. There was no concealment. As soon as summonses were served, 20

public announcement was made of the hearing which was then held in public,

livestreamed with the evidence transcribed and to be published. Mr Beasley.

MR BEASLEY: I believe we have Mr Verwaal here. Sir, can you hear me?

25

MR VERWAAL: Good morning. Yes, sir, I can.

MR BEASLEY: And have I pronounced your name correctly?

MR VERWAAL: Very well, sir. 30

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. Would you like to give your evidence by swearing an

oath on the Bible or by giving an affirmation.

MR VERWAAL: An affirmation, please. 35

<CHARLES VERWAAL, AFFIRMED [10.03 am]

40

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Sir, your name is Charles Verwaal.

45

MR VERWAAL: Can you repeat that, please.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Sir, your name is Charles Verwaal.

MR VERWAAL: Correct.

MR BEASLEY: And you’re the hotel manager on the Ruby Princess cruise ship. 5

MR VERWAAL: I am.

MR BEASLEY: Is your employer Princess Cruise Lines?

10

MR VERWAAL: Can you repeat the question, please.

MR BEASLEY: Who is your employer?

MR VERWAAL: ..... Cruises. 15

MR BEASLEY: I’m sorry, I missed that answer.

MR VERWAAL: My employer is Princess Cruises.

20

MR BEASLEY: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Before you go on, Mr Beasley, Mr McLure, I take it you appear

for this witness.

25

MR McLURE: Yes, I do, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: And for the record, the same position obtains in relation to his

lack of willingness within the statutory use of that concept to give evidence.

30

MR McLURE: Yes, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you, Commissioner. Can you tell us how long you have 35

been the hotel manager of the Ruby Princess cruise ship, please.

MR VERWAAL: I arrived onboard in February – early February after starting my

career with Princess only on January 24th for a short period on the Royal Princess,

after which I was transferred to the ..... 40

MR BEASLEY: Now, we missed – we’re missing what the witness is saying,

Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Could you try again, and let’s hope the technical means 45

perform better this time, please.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: I’m sorry, sir, we missed the last part of your answer. What we

got was that you – I think you were telling us you started your employment with

Princess Cruises on the 24th of January this year. 5


MR BEASLEY: Correct. And that was on a different ship than the Ruby Princess.

10

MR VERWAAL: Correct. That was on the Royal Princess.

MR BEASLEY: And when did you commence duties as hotel - - -

MR VERWAAL: On February 7. 15

MR BEASLEY: I’m sorry?

MR VERWAAL: I started on Ruby Princess on February 7.

20

MR BEASLEY: February the 7th this year. Prior to your employment with Princess

Cruises, have you been in hotel management or in some other position in hotel

management on other cruise lines or with other organisations, and if so please tell us

your work history.

25

MR VERWAAL: I’ve been a hotel director and hotel general manager for ..... and I

have worked for some of the finest hotels in the world.

MR BEASLEY: We missed part of the answer again, Commissioner.

30

COMMISSIONER: For how long, Mr Verwaal?

MR VERWAAL: I have been one half year hotel ..... Viking Ocean Cruises and

seven years hotel general manager at Holland America Line. And before that I held

different positions land-based for hotel organisations as general manager. 35


MR BEASLEY: Do we assume for that, it’s nearly 10 years in hotel management

on hotels on cruise ships? 40

MR VERWAAL: That is correct.

MR BEASLEY: All right. In relation to the Ruby Princess, I imagine you’re in

charge of – as the hotel manager in charge of a large number of departments within 45

the hotel. Is that correct?


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: And could you give the Commissioner some idea as to the – what

are your core duties as hotel manager?

5

MR VERWAAL: Sorry, the question – I could not hear the question.

MR BEASLEY: What are your principal duties or main duties as hotel manager on

the Ruby Princess?

10

MR VERWAAL: I manage all departments within the hotel part. So we have three

parts. We have the nautical part and technical part and the hotel part.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

15

MR VERWAAL: And I lead the hotel part which includes everything that a guest

experiences from arriving on board until the disembarkation from port including

entertainment, food and beverage services, housekeeping services, etcetera.

MR BEASLEY: And so that would include, obviously, all dining experiences for 20

guests.


MR BEASLEY: Yes? I didn’t hear your answer, I’m sorry, sir. 25

MR VERWAAL: I said correct.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Entertainment?

30


MR BEASLEY: Cleaning?

MR VERWAAL: Excuse me? 35

MR BEASLEY: Cleaning?

MR VERWAAL: Also correct. Yes.

40

MR BEASLEY: Room service?


MR BEASLEY: And it’s a very large hotel. We know there was 2700 guest 45

onboard. What’s the capacity for guests on the Ruby Princess?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: We have 1500 hotel rooms.

MR BEASLEY: Does that mean up to 3000 guests, or are some single rooms?

MR VERWAAL: Correct. 5

MR BEASLEY: Right. All right. Does the – does it fall within your province to

have any responsibilities if one of your hotel guests becomes unwell and needs

medical assistance?

10

MR VERWAAL: If a guest is unwell the guest will go to the medical centre to see

one of the doctors on board.

MR BEASLEY: Is the medical centre considered part of the hotel or is it a separate

department? 15

MR VERWAAL: It is part of the hotel operation.

MR BEASLEY: Does that mean the medical staff ultimately report to you?

20

MR VERWAAL: In an operational sense, yes. Not in a technical sense. I am not

medically schooled or medically trained.

MR BEASLEY: No. I understand that. Any medical decisions would be left to the

medical staff, correct? 25


MR BEASLEY: But you might – sorry, you or your staff might have

responsibilities, for example, helping guests liaise or go to the medical centre if they 30

need to. Correct?


MR BEASLEY: And does the hotel takes responsibility for giving guest passengers 35

information about the medical centre and what to do if they become unwell?


MR BEASLEY: And can I ask you this. I think you said you started with the Ruby 40

Princess on the 7th of February this year. Is that right?

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: Can I ask you, in terms of the chain of command firstly on the 45

ship, is the only person superior to you, would that be the ship captain?


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: Within Ruby cruises, however, generally, is there someone off the

ship that has overall charge of hotel management for the fleet as a whole?

5

MR VERWAAL: Correct. So there’s the vice-president hotel services.

MR BEASLEY: Right. Okay. And that’s someone based in California or Florida,

is it?

10

MR VERWAAL: ..... California.

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. And during the period 7 February through to the 8th of

March this year when the ship docked in Sydney on the 8th of March, were you

provided with any information about the novel coronavirus that we now as – that’s 15

been termed COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: Can you repeat the question, please?

MR BEASLEY: Yes. After you started with Princess Cruises on the 7th of 20

February, after that point of time, were you provided by anyone on board the ship or

through the company you work for information about COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: I’d have to go back in the files to see exactly what we received,

but we have received periodic updates about the situation on the Diamond Princess, 25

but not so much in – in detail.

MR BEASLEY: Well, let’s just focus on the Diamond Princess, then. Did the

company make you aware that the Diamond Princess had been detained in

Yokohama on the 2nd of February this year because of a COVID outbreak on the 30

ship?

MR VERWAAL: That – I cannot remember the exact words in that – in how that

was communicated.

35

MR BEASLEY: I’m not expecting you to remember word for word any document

you were provided with or information that you were provided with that you don’t

have in front of you. I’m only asking you for general answers at the moment. So

you were given some information, were you, from the company about the outbreak

of COVID-19 on the Diamond Princess? Sorry. Again, I don’t think we heard your 40

answer, Mr Verwaal. Can you repeat your answer?


MR BEASLEY: Thank you. I apologise for the difficulty you’ve got hearing me 45

and I’ve got hearing you. We’re both – I was almost going to say in the same boat.

We’re actually not in the same boat. But we’re both experiencing the same


MR BEASLEY SC

difficulty, and I thank you for your patience. I also should have said to you, if I cut

an answer off, I’m not meaning to. It’s largely because of the delay in hearing you.

So if I’ve cut you off and you wanted to complete an answer, please let me know. In

relation to the information that the company gave you concerning COVID-19, did it

come with any new protocols or procedures that you as hotel manager or any hotel 5

staff should follow to take precautions about COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. We went to elevated health levels in order to protect our

guests.

10

MR BEASLEY: Now, what does elevated health levels mean?

MR VERWAAL: It means that we intensify cleaning practices, practice social

distancing, make sure that our restaurants operate in a different manner, do not have

self-service buffet restaurants anymore but everything is served, and intensive 15

cleaning program of the public spaces.

MR BEASLEY: Could I ask you, Mr Verwaal, when was those – when were those

precautions put in place, do you recall?

20

MR VERWAAL: You – you will need to have to repeat the question, please.

MR BEASLEY: The precautions that you’re talking about, for example, one you

mentioned was social distancing. Another you mentioned was not having buffet

dinner services. When were they put in place by the ship? 25

MR VERWAAL: In – because that I think we started the cruise, at the end of the

cruise – before we started the cruise on February 24th.

MR BEASLEY: So - - - 30

MR VERWAAL: Before that.

MR BEASLEY: - - - the advice was given to passengers to stay 1.5 metres apart

from each other, obviously outside of people they’re sharing a cabin with, and these 35

other protocols like enhanced cleaning were put in place for the cruise the ship

undertook from the 24th of February to the 8th of March. Is that correct?

MR VERWAAL: I – I do have to apologise. The line is really bad, and your

questioning, often there is a pause and I cannot hear anything. I would like to ask 40

you to repeat it, please.

MR BEASLEY: I certainly will do that. Commissioner, if any time you feel it’s

appropriate to adjourn to try and fix this up, please let me know. I’ll persist until you

tell me to stop. I’ll repeat the question. What I said was, for the – your recollection 45

is that for the journey of the ship from 24 February through to 8 March, these


MR BEASLEY SC

enhanced protocols like social distancing, enhanced cleaning were put in place for

that particular cruise?

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

5

MR BEASLEY: And information, I assume, was given to passengers about that.

Correct?

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

10

MR BEASLEY: Was that by means of public announcements, or were they given

written material to advise them what to do?

MR VERWAAL: Public announcement. Sorry?

15

MR BEASLEY: Were – in terms of advice given to passengers for things like social

distancing, was that given to them in written form?

MR VERWAAL: Social distancing, of course. It’s a specific item that came a little

later, because – a little later. I don’t know exactly at what time that was introduced. 20

But all health expertise ..... answer the health level on board are a communication by

announcement.

MR BEASLEY: By announcements? Were there - - -

25

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: - - - was any written – we’ll worry about dates in a minute, but was

there any written material provided to passengers?

30

MR VERWAAL: I am sure there was, but I do not have – I’m sure there was. Yes.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And do you think these enhanced safety protocols or

precautions were put in place by the commencement of the 24 February cruise?

35

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: Right. And as a matter of obviousness, they would have continued

for the cruise that commenced on the 8th of March?

40

MR VERWAAL: Yes. Definitely.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Does that material remain onboard? There’d be a record

of it somewhere onboard the ship?

45

MR VERWAAL: A record of what, exactly?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Any written material that was provided to passengers and any

material from the company to responsible people on the ship as to the changes to put

in place as a result of COVID-19.

MR VERWAAL: I would imagine so. 5

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. Does the role of the hotel staff, your staff,

include assistance to passengers when they board the ship and when they disembark

the ship?

10

MR VERWAAL: What do you mean with assistance?

MR BEASLEY: All right. In terms of organisation of passengers to leave the ship,

for example, what role does the hotel play in that?

15

MR VERWAAL: We make sure the luggage goes to the pier. We make sure that

the guests are informed at what time their disembarkation time is. And as soon as

guests leave the ship and are arriving in the terminal, then that becomes a terminal

organisation. The same goes for embarkation of guests. Guests become my

responsibility once on board. 20

MR BEASLEY: You’re going to have to forgive me. I’ve never been on a cruise

ship, and consequently I’ve never come off a cruise ship. Where – do you assist in

things like giving directions to people about how to get off the ship, what time

they’re to go off, what directions they’re to follow, those sorts of logistical assistance 25

for passengers to get off the ship?

MR VERWAAL: That is correct, sir.

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’ll come back to that in a moment. I just want to ask 30

you some questions about your recollection of what happened on the ship after it

docked in Sydney on the 8th of March. Were you – I assume you were aware that

there were a number of people with either respiratory disease infection or flu-like

symptoms on board the ship when it docked on the 8th of March in Sydney?

35

MR VERWAAL: I was.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Does that mean – are you kept abreast – sorry – are you

kept informed by the medical centre about the number of hotel guests that are ill?

40

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: And are you kept informed by the medical centre about what kind

of illnesses they might be suffering from? For example, if there’s an influenza

outbreak on the ship. 45

MR VERWAAL: I did not hear the entire question.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: In addition to the number of people seeking assistance from the

medical centre, are you kept informed about individual medical conditions of people,

or whether there is something like an influenza outbreak on board the ship?

MR VERWAAL: I’m very sorry, but you’ll have to repeat the question again. 5

MR BEASLEY: Was it because you didn’t hear it or you didn’t understand it?

MR VERWAAL: I didn’t hear it.

10

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’m sorry about that. I’ll say it for the third time.

You’ve already told us you’re kept informed about the – by the medical centre about

the number of hotel guests that are attending the medical centre. Correct?


MR BEASLEY: Are you told what illnesses they’re suffering from?

MR VERWAAL: Yes, I am.

20

MR BEASLEY: All right.

MR VERWAAL: Not – in general, not in specific, because there is, of course,

medical confidence.

25

MR BEASLEY: Yes. But, for example, you would be notified by the doctors or

other members of the medical teal if they were concerned that there was an influenza

outbreak on board, for example.


MR BEASLEY: Yes. Okay. On the 8th of March when the ship was docked in

Sydney, were you made aware that people from a New South Wales Government

health team had come on board before passengers were allowed off? Was the answer

to that question yes? 35

COMMISSIONER: I don’t - - -

MR VERWAAL: The entire question was – I did not hear the total question.

40

MR BEASLEY: I’ll ask it again. And, please, if there’s any frustration in my tone,

Mr Verwaal, it’s not at you. The question is this. When the ship was docked in

Sydney on the 8th of March and before the passengers left the ship, were you

informed that New South Wales Health – a New South Wales Health team had come

on board? 45

MR VERWAAL: Yes. I was informed.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: And did any members of your staff play a role in assembling the

hotel guests that the New South Wales Health team wanted to assess?

MR VERWAAL: Yes, sir.

5

MR BEASLEY: And I think Dr Watzdorf told us yesterday that something like 360

hotel guests were assessed at least in terms of having things like their temperature

checked.

MR VERWAAL: You’ll have to repeat the question, sir. I’m sorry. 10

MR BEASLEY: Just – please. Did you have a role in – or your staff have a role in

assembling the 360 people that Dr Watzdorf told us yesterday were assessed by the

health officials with things like having their temperature checked?

15

MR VERWAAL: I do apologise. I don’t want to frustrate you, but I think we need

to do something about the - - -

MR BEASLEY: No.

20

MR VERWAAL: - - - quality of the line.

MR BEASLEY: I entirely agree with you.

COMMISSIONER: We’ll - - - 25

MR BEASLEY: So we’re going to have – I think the Commissioner is going to

organise a break and we’ll try and make this better.

COMMISSIONER: We’ll try and make it as short as possible. Five minutes, I 30

hope. Thank you, Mr Verwaal. We’ll be back very soon, we hope, with sound.

MR VERWAAL: Thank you, sir.

COMMISSIONER: Very well. If something could be done. 35

ADJOURNED [10.26 am]

40

RESUMED [10.40 am]

COMMISSIONER: Shall we resume? I’m sorry for the delay. Let’s try again.

45

MR BEASLEY: Can you hear me, sir?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: I can hear you, sir.

MR BEASLEY: That’s good. It’s – I should warn everyone it’s probably unlikely

to be any better, but we’ll persist.

5


MR BEASLEY: I was asking you about the 8th of March 2020. You recall that?

MR VERWAAL: I do recall that, yes, unfortunately. 10

MR BEASLEY: Yes. And I asked you whether your hotel team had any

involvement in helping to organise for the New South Wales Health team to assess

about 360 hotel guests that day before passengers left the ship.

15

MR VERWAAL: Yes. We assisted.

MR BEASLEY: All right. What was hotel staff’s role in relation to that?

MR VERWAAL: We facilitated the – the venue. We organised that the guests 20

came to the venue and then New South Wales took over the procedures.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And did you know – or were you told that some of the

hotel guests on the 8th of March were swabbed for – to see whether they had COVID-

19? 25

MR VERWAAL: I was informed at a later stage.

MR BEASLEY: And I assume you were told that those tests came back negative.

30

MR VERWAAL: Yes. That is correct.

MR BEASLEY: And after that, people were allowed to leave the ship. The guests

were allowed to leave the ship.

35

MR VERWAAL: Yes. That is also correct.

MR BEASLEY: All right. When the new passengers got on board on the 8th of

March, were they given the health precaution information we discussed earlier about

things like social distancing? 40

MR VERWAAL: Yes. They – they were informed shore-side at the terminal.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Was that by the company?

45

MR VERWAAL: That was by a – by a contracted company, if I’m not mistaken.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. And once they were on board, were they given any

additional information about health precautions as a result of COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: Yes, they were.

5

MR BEASLEY: And what was that information as far as you recall?

MR VERWAAL: We enforced a strict sanitation protocol. As I said earlier, we

informed the guests of ..... normally take when we go to an elevated level of hygiene.

10

MR BEASLEY: And did the elevated level of hygiene involve special arrangements

for cleaning the ship after the passengers got off on the 8th of March and before the

new group of passengers came on board?

MR VERWAAL: Yes, also. 15

MR BEASLEY: And what did that involve as far as you recall?

MR VERWAAL: That we – that we – in our management system, our hazard

management system, we have protocols for that, and we follow those protocols, and 20

in this case there was a complete sanitation of all public areas and cabins.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Was different material used to clean the ship?

MR VERWAAL: No. The materials remained the same, but the frequency isn’t and 25

.....

MR BEASLEY: So it was cleaned more frequently, was it, the public areas and the

rooms?

30

MR VERWAAL: Yes. Also. Yes.

MR BEASLEY: All right.

MR VERWAAL: And the product is used in a more – the products used are more 35

used in a more concentrated manner.

MR BEASLEY: Was there any change to things like entertainment on the ship? I

know there are live shows and there might be a movie theatre or movie theatres.

Were there any changes or precautions taken in relation to activities like that? 40

MR VERWAAL: No.

MR BEASLEY: The answer to that was no, was it?

45



MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. Is there – are there dances on board the ship? Is there a

nightclub?

MR VERWAAL: Yes, there is.

5

MR BEASLEY: And - - -

MR VERWAAL: And there are dances.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And I – it’s very difficult – there were no social 10

distancing protocols, I take it, in relation to those activities?


MR BEASLEY: All right. I want to ask you about the journey of the ship from the 15

8th of March to New Zealand. Did you become aware at some stage during that

journey on about the 15th of March that there was an outbreak of either respiratory

disease or a suspected outbreak of influenza on board the ship?

MR VERWAAL: I do apologise. The line is much better; however, you do need to 20

repeat the question.

MR BEASLEY: Did you become aware while the ship was in New Zealand from

either the doctor or anyone else on board that the ship was – that there was a

suspicion that the ship had an outbreak of influenza on board? 25

MR VERWAAL: Only at the end of the cruise.

MR BEASLEY: Only by the – does that mean only by the 19th of March?

30

MR VERWAAL: And the days before that, yes.

MR BEASLEY: When you say the days before that, is it one day before or three

days before? How long before?

35

MR VERWAAL: Well, on the request of New South Wales we had to make an

announcement in which we asked the guests to come to the medical – medical

facilities if they had certain symptoms, and based upon that request, that was a day

prior, so that was the – if I’m not mistaken , the 16th and 17th. At that moment, it

showed because of all guests going to the medical facilities. 40

MR BEASLEY: All right. Were those symptoms things like high temperature,

cough, sore throat, symptoms you might usually associate with a flu or a cold?



MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: And who made that decision to make that announcement? Was

that on advice by the medical staff on board, or was that a directive from the

company?

MR VERWAAL: No. That was on request of New South Wales Public Health. 5

MR BEASLEY: Okay. Thank you. Was that relayed directly to you, or did you

find that out through someone else on board the ship?

MR VERWAAL: I do not recall that the exact – if I was in the to or cc’d. I do not 10

recall that.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Were you made aware by the medical staff or anyone

else that while the ship was in Wellington on the 14th of March that some testing was

done on guests for COVID-19? 15

MR VERWAAL: I was made aware of that, yes.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And who – was that Dr Watzdorf that told you that?

20


MR BEASLEY: And I assume she told you that those tests had come back negative.


MR BEASLEY: Did she tell you that other guests had been tested for influenza?

MR VERWAAL: That could very well be, yes. I - - -

30

MR BEASLEY: Do - - -

MR VERWAAL: I do not recall as such, but that could very well be.

MR BEASLEY: You don’t have a recollection of her telling you that people had 35

been tested for flu that had flu-like symptoms but had tested negative for flu?

MR VERWAAL: I don’t go into the test results, no.

MR BEASLEY: So – all right. Did Dr Watzdorf or any other member of the 40

medical staff during the course of this cruise ever express a concern to you that any

passengers or crew on board the ship might – were displaying symptoms that were

consistent with COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: Sorry. Can you please repeat the question? 45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Yes. At any stage during this cruise from the 8th to the 19th of

March did Dr Watzdorf or any other person on the ship express a concern to you that

passengers or crew were displaying symptoms consistent with COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: In my recollection, we were all concerned, because of course, as 5

we know now, at that moment, a lot of things went on in the world. So also we were

very concerned, of course.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Does that mean that there was some discussion amongst

crew that potentially, some passengers or crew had COVID-19? 10

COMMISSIONER: We may have lost the link now.

MR BEASLEY: Did you hear my question, sir? Someone – can you hear me? No.

He’s gone. He’s left. 15

COMMISSIONER: He thought you were about to sing, -

MR BEASLEY: That’s curious.

20

COMMISSIONER: There’s no vision. What’s amiss, gentlemen? There’s no

vision.

MR BEASLEY: It’s a rather curious - - -

25

COMMISSIONER: The screen is telling me, just - - -

MR BEASLEY: Here we go.

COMMISSIONER: - - - in case none of you had guessed, that there is a connection 30

issue. You can continue the call - - -

MR BEASLEY: Are you - - -

COMMISSIONER: - - - it says, but - - - 35

MR BEASLEY: Are you able to ring that, gentlemen, that’s on the screen?

COMMISSIONER: - - - some features are unavailable. Like sound and vision, I

think. 40

MR BEASLEY: There he is.

COMMISSIONER: Is there any phone connection that can be made? More to the

point, I am not aware there’s any sound connection. Now it’s telling me there’s no 45

network connection. Mr Verwaal, can you hear us now?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: I can hear you, sir.

COMMISSIONER: Let’s have another go.

MR BEASLEY: Can you - - - 5

COMMISSIONER: Sorry about this.

MR BEASLEY: Can you hear me, sir?

10

MR VERWAAL: I can hear you, sir, but I don’t see you very well.

MR BEASLEY: Don’t worry about that. That’s okay. As long as you can hear me,

it’s probably better.

15

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: I was asking you whether you had any discussions during the

cruise from the 8th of March with any member of the medical staff or anyone else

about the potential that passengers onboard might have COVID-19? 20

MR VERWAAL: Yes. As I – as I said, we were all concerned, and – but of course,

when we got those five tests back that were negative, that – that again changed our

perspective. Not in operational-wise, but in mindset.

25

MR BEASLEY: And were those discussions or concerns, did that include

discussions you had with Dr Watzdorf, for example?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. Of course.

30

MR BEASLEY: All right. Did they also include discussions with the ship’s

captain?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. Of course. Yes.

35

MR BEASLEY: All right. Did you, at any stage after the ship – I think the ship

was in Napier on the 15th of March. Is that correct?

MR VERWAAL: That would be correct. Yes.

40

MR BEASLEY: All right. Did Dr Watzdorf or any other member of the medical

staff report to you that by that stage, there was an increasing number of passengers

that had developed flu-like symptoms or respiratory disease?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. 45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you recall – doing the best you can, and I don’t

expect it to be word for word, but what did Dr Watzdorf tell you?

MR VERWAAL: I do not recall that.

5

MR BEASLEY: But it was along the lines, was it, that more and more people are

becoming ill with those symptoms I discussed?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. We had – in the cruise – like, doing to different New

Zealand ports and – and New Zealand being divided in north and south parts, you 10

had different – different health declaration forms, and of course, guests had to fill in

those forms.

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

15

MR VERWAAL: And with filling in those forms, the – the visits to the health

centre, the medical centre, increased.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And as I understand it from Dr Watzdorf yesterday,

people that were exhibiting flu-like symptoms or respiratory disease were asked to 20

isolate in their cabins. Is that right?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. That’s correct.

MR BEASLEY: Does the hotel have responsibility for telling people to do that or 25

ensuring that that is enforced?

MR VERWAAL: We are not enforcing that as – as putting somebody in front of the

door, if that is what you mean, so - - -

30

MR BEASLEY: No. No.

MR VERWAAL: - - - it is .....

MR BEASLEY: No. I didn’t mean you were locking the door, but does the hotel 35

have – make arrangements with people or provide information to guests that they

must stay in their rooms until their symptoms, for example, improve?

MR VERWAAL: That is done by the medical officers.

40

MR BEASLEY: All right. But it’s your recollection that – is it your recollection

that there were – as the ship was arriving in Sydney on the 18th and 19th of March

2020, there was over 100 guests in isolation? Is that your memory?

MR VERWAAL: I don’t know if – if over 100 guests were in isolation, but I do 45

recall that we had quite a number of guests with flu-like symptoms. Yes.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’m going to ask you some questions about some emails,

and you have the disadvantage of not having these emails in front of you, so I’ll be as

thorough as I can in telling you what’s in these emails. The first email was not

actually sent to you, but it was later copied to you. There was an email sent from

New South Wales Health to Dr Watzdorf to provide some information about the 5

health and travel of guests on board. It was sent in the afternoon of March 17, and it

included a request to – for her to provide New South Wales Health with an acute

respiratory disease log. Ultimately, that email was copied to you. Do you remember

seeing that email?

10

MR VERWAAL: No, I don’t remember but I believe you.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Are you familiar with an acute respiratory disease log?

MR VERWAAL: Usually I am not copied in in those logs themselves but if you say 15

that I received it then I believe you.

MR BEASLEY: All right. What I wanted to ask you was, when New South Wales

Health requested the information from Dr Von Watzdorf including this log, when Dr

Von Watzdorf replied on the 18th of March – on the morning of the 18th of March 20

including sending New South Wales Health that respiratory diseases log and also

some information about two passengers – sorry, two hotel guests that were unwell,

she copied you in in her response to New South Wales Health. Do you recall that?

MR VERWAAL: I think I do, yes. 25

MR BEASLEY: All right. And it included some details about the two hotel guests,

Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon, who had upper respiratory tract infections. Do you

recall that?

30

MR VERWAAL: I don’t recall their names, but I – I think you are referring to the

guests that were medically disembarked in the night.

MR BEASLEY: I am. And indeed, the email said that they required ambulance

transfer. You remember that? 35

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: I wanted to ask you why would the doctor copy you in to that

email response. 40

MR VERWAAL: Normally I’m not copied into that. I don’t know.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Did you have any discussions with Dr Von Watzdorf

about either Mr Londero or Mrs Bacon or if you can’t remember their name, about 45

the two passengers that had upper respiratory tract infections that required ambulance

transfer. Did you have any discussions that you recall with the doctor?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: No, not – not about their specific cases, no.

MR BEASLEY: All right. So you’re unable to assist the Commissioner as to why

Dr Von Watzdorf felt it important to let you know about this.

5

MR VERWAAL: No, I – I know that at that moment, of course, we ..... all

information went – went fast, a lot of email traffic, so maybe it had something to do

with that. I don’t know.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Then New South Wales Health then responded to Dr 10

Von Watzdorf later in the early evening of March 18, you were obviously copied in

on that email because the previous email had been sent to you. Do you recall seeing

an email from New South Wales Health saying that a New South Wales Health

expert panel has assessed the Ruby Princess and will not be boarding the ship to

make another health assessment? 15

MR VERWAAL: Yes, I do recall that.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Was that your first – the first information you had that New

South Wales Health weren’t going to board the ship to delay people leaving in the 20

manner they had on the 8th of March?

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And do you recall that email informing, amongst other 25

people, you that 15 samples would be kept from hotel guests for later COVID

testing?

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

30

MR BEASLEY: And that email also advised that whilst the guests were free to

disembark on the 19th of March that the Australian Government had made it a

condition that they go into self-isolation for 14 days.

MR VERWAAL: Yes. 35

MR BEASLEY: All right. Did you or any members of the staff on the ship have a

role in informing guests of what the Australian Government wanted them to do when

they left the ship, ie, they must isolate for 14 days after they left the ship?

40

MR VERWAAL: Yes. The guests were all – all guests were given a letter with the

specific instructions.

MR BEASLEY: Right. Now, that – the letter you’re referring to, do you mean a

brochure from the Australian Government advising them, amongst other things, that 45

they must self-isolate for 14 days and they should practice social distancing and wash

their hands frequently, etcetera?


MR BEASLEY SC


MR BEASLEY: And was that the responsibility of your staff to circulate that

circular to the passengers on the ship?

5

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Can you tell the Commissioner, having circulated that

information to the passengers on the ship, what role your staff then played after the

ship had docked in relation to passengers disembarking from the ship? 10

MR VERWAAL: I – I don’t think I understand the question. I heard it – I heard it

very well but I didn’t - - -

MR BEASLEY: All right. I’ll try it again. The ship has docked and we’re at the 15

point where – when a – is there an onboard announcement that passengers are now –

when they’re told that they should get ready to leave the ship, for example?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. That is correct.

20

MR BEASLEY: All right. And are they then – is there then an announcement made

that they may now leave the ship?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. That is correct. But that is according to their luggage tags

they have. So all guests receive luggage tags and they are – and they all leave the 25

ship in groups.

MR BEASLEY: All right. How are those groups – how is the – the group is

identified; is it by a number system or how is it done?

30

MR VERWAAL: Course and numbers.

MR BEASLEY: All right. How many people are told then to – how many groups

of passengers are there?

35

MR VERWAAL: That I cannot – that I don’t know. That depends cruise by cruise.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you have any recollection – I think there were about

2700 passengers aboard this ship. Were they told to leave in three groups or four

groups? Do you have any recollection about that? 40

MR VERWAAL: No. I – I would – I would say the groups are between 50 and 20.

MR BEASLEY: All right. So does the announcement work this way, that there’s

an announcement for the first group of passengers to start leaving the ship? 45

MR VERWAAL: Yes.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: And then once – is it after that group of passengers that have left

the ship that another group of passengers is then told to leave?


5

MR BEASLEY: Has the – tell me if you don’t know, but has the first group of

passengers fully left the ship by the time the second group is told to get off?

MR VERWAAL: One would assume so, but I cannot tell if .....

10

MR BEASLEY: Don’t assume. I only want you to tell me what you know. These

announcements – are they the responsibility of someone on your staff or does another

division of the ship make the announcements for disembarkation?

MR VERWAAL: It is done by one of my staff that can be either somebody from 15

the entertainment or somebody from guest services.

MR BEASLEY: All right. In terms of luggage, do passengers – they leave, I take

it, with their portable luggage but their larger luggage, is that taken off the ship for

them by your staff? 20

MR VERWAAL: Correct. That is the first thing we do when we dock.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And they collect that from an area at the passenger

terminal, do they? 25


MR BEASLEY: And given the notice, that notice from the Australian Government

about 14 days self-isolation and other matters, did you read that notice yourself? 30

MR VERWAAL: I think I did, yes.

MR BEASLEY: Was that notice provided to other people – was that notice also

provided to crew? 35

MR VERWAAL: No.

MR BEASLEY: Did you discuss the notice with any members of your crew?

40

MR VERWAAL: In my meetings, yes. But not crew in general, no.

MR BEASLEY: All right. In your meetings with, what, senior members of your

team?

45



MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Can I ask whether any consideration was given – sorry. I’ll

withdraw that. You understood when the ship docked on the 19th of March that there

were still guests on board that were displaying symptoms of flu and respiratory

disease. Correct?

5

MR VERWAAL: Correct. They left the ship as past.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. I’ll come to that. And you’d been told that 15 swabs for

COVID-19 had been taken, but obviously the tests results weren’t yet back.

10


MR BEASLEY: Now, I think you wanted to tell the Commissioner something. Do

I understand from a little bit of an answer you gave, were the people that were

displaying symptoms of flu or respiratory disease – did they go off the ship last? 15

MR VERWAAL: Yes. The – the ones that were isolated. Yes.

MR BEASLEY: I see. Okay. And was that a decision that was made by you or

was it a decision made in consultation with the medical staff on board the ship? 20

MR VERWAAL: In consultation with the medical staff.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And were the people in isolation, were they wearing any

protective equipment such as masks? 25

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: Were they – the people that were in isolation, they were the only

ones provided with masks, or was every passenger provided with a mask for the 30

purposes of leaving the ship?

MR VERWAAL: Everybody who has or had came – every guest who had came

forward to the medical centre.

35

MR BEASLEY: All right. And can I ask this. After the last group of passengers

left the ship that were not in isolation, do you recall how long it was before the

people that were in isolation left the ship? Was there – how big was the time gap?

Do you recall that?

40

MR VERWAAL: I do not recall.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Was there any discussion in your meeting about – or any

advice given about how long that gap should be?

45

MR VERWAAL: No.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Was there any consideration – leaving aside the hotel guests that

were in isolation, was there any consideration given to slowing the disembarkation

process even more by having people leave the ship in a manner where they could

stay away from each other or socially distance themselves?

5

MR VERWAAL: Well, in the announcement, social distancing was a part of that. I

think we were very surprised that we did not have the same treatment from New

South Wales Public Health as we did on the 8th, so when the guests left on the 19th, of

course we were cautioned, and that was also practiced in the announcement and

guests were made aware of that. 10

MR BEASLEY: All right. And just - - -

MR VERWAAL: And as I recall - - -

15

MR BEASLEY: Thank you. Just pausing there, when you say you were very

surprised at the different treatment from New South Wales Health, does the

Commissioner take that to mean you were surprised that passengers were allowed to

leave the ship before the COVID-19 test results were made available?

20


MR BEASLEY: And was that the – was that not only your own surprise, but did

you have discussions with people on the ship where they expressed similar surprise

that people were allowed to leave the ship without those test results back? 25

MR VERWAAL: As I said, we were expecting the same treatment from New South

Wales and the same assistance from New South Wales as we had received on the 8th.

MR BEASLEY: Just going back a step, when you were sent – copied in, I’m sorry 30

– on the email I discussed with you where Dr Watzdorf was advised by New South

Wales Health that there would not be an on board health assessment – this is back on

the evening of the 18th of March – were you surprised to read that?

MR VERWAAL: That is what I’m referring to. 35

MR BEASLEY: Right. Okay. And did you have any conversations with Dr

Watzdorf about that, and did she express similar surprise?

MR VERWAAL: No. I cannot recall her expression. 40

MR BEASLEY: Did you – is this a surprise that you kept to yourself, or did you

have discussions with anyone else on board that “I’m surprised by that decision”?

MR VERWAAL: I was surprised myself, and I do not recall discussing with 45

anybody else. I could have, but I don’t remember.


MR BEASLEY SC

MR BEASLEY: Can I ask you why you were surprised? Can you tell the

Commissioner why you were surprised by that decision?

MR VERWAAL: Because all the other steps that we have taken were exactly the

same as we did before arriving in Sydney on the 8th. We did the same before arriving 5

in Sydney on the 19th. That is why.

MR BEASLEY: To your knowledge, did you yourself have a greater concern about

the possibility of passengers or crew on board the ship having undiagnosed COVID-

19 on the 19th of March than you did, say, on the 8th of March? 10

MR VERWAAL: I would guess so, since we are further down the line, but at that

moment, don’t forget that we had that five – the five test results back which were

negative and so – and then New South Wales did not come on board to do that pre-

clearance, so it gives you mixed feelings and you – you think perhaps it could be, but 15

on the other hand, the signals that you get are that – that it’s not the case, so it’s very

difficult.

MR BEASLEY: When – in relation to the 8th of March, do you recall how long

before the ship docked on the 8th of March that you became aware that New South 20

Wales Health was going to board the ship to carry out an assessment?

MR VERWAAL: That was either one day or two days before.

MR BEASLEY: All right. And although you don’t know the complete numbers, 25

was it your – based on the information that had been given to you, did you – was it

your understanding that there were more ill people on the 19th of March, at least

more people exhibiting respiratory disease or influenza-like illness on the 19th of

March than on the 8th of March, or did you understand it to be about the same?

30

MR VERWAAL: I think that was about the same, but I do not really recall the

numbers.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Can I ask you, once passengers disembark the ship,

where they get their bags and how they get their luggage is not the responsibility of 35

the cruise line? Is that correct?

MR VERWAAL: It’s not the responsibility of my operation.

MR BEASLEY: Does that mean it is still the responsibility of the cruise line? 40

MR VERWAAL: I don’t know how the contracts are made up.

MR BEASLEY: Fair enough. Was any special instructions, as far as you’re aware,

given to passengers about the means by which they should collect their luggage? In 45

other words, were there any instructions given to them to collect luggage in groups as

well as leave the ship in groups?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: Not other than we normally do.

MR BEASLEY: Well, what do you normally do?

MR VERWAAL: As I explained to you before, we work with the luggage stacks in 5

colours and numbers, so the same procedures are taking place.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. Can you give the Commissioner some idea as to how long it

actually takes all 2700 people to get off the ship?

10

MR VERWAAL: It takes approximately four hours – four, five hours.

MR BEASLEY: Had you been – you had – you’ve already – we know that you

were aware – I don’t think you could remember their names, but you were aware that

at least two passengers required ambulance transfer. 15

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

MR BEASLEY: Did you yourself have any responsibilities, or did anyone of your

staff, leaving aside the medical staff, have any responsibilities for arranging that 20

ambulance transfer?

MR VERWAAL: We have a hotel administrator who communicates with the agent

– with the port agent.

25

MR BEASLEY: All right. And who is that person?

MR VERWAAL: The hotel administrator – would you like his name?

MR BEASLEY: Yes, please. 30

MR VERWAAL: His name is – his name is Salvio, and I always call him Salvio,

and I do not have his second name personally.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you know where or not Salvio contacted – had any 35

contact with ambulance, or was that in - - -

MR VERWAAL: No.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Do you know – Dr Watzdorf, do you know whether she 40

had any contact with the ambulance?

MR VERWAAL: I’m not aware of how she performs that procedure.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Did you have any contact yourself with the port agent 45

Ms Tokovic, Bibi Tokovic?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: Usually not, no, apart from saying how - - -

MR BEASLEY: No. In relation to these two unwell guests that required ambulance

transfer, did you have any conversations with her or communications with her about

them? 5

MR VERWAAL: No, sir.

MR BEASLEY: Did you have any communications are all concerning these two

hotel guests that required ambulance transfer with someone called Paul Misfud [sic]? 10


MR BEASLEY: Did you have any conversation with anyone from New South

Wales concerning the health of the two hotel guests that required ambulance 15

transfer?


MR BEASLEY: All right. Can I ask you just a couple of concluding questions. Do 20

you recall being, after you started on the 7th of February being provided with any

written information from the New South Wales Government concerning measures to

contain the risk of COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: No. I do not recall that. 25

MR BEASLEY: All right. As far as you can remember, the information came from

the company about enhanced protocols. Is that right?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. Yes. 30

MR BEASLEY: And does the same apply in relation to any information from the

federal – the Australian federal government?

MR VERWAAL: No. I think the – what we received of the arrival on the 8th of 35

March and upon arrival on the 19th of March, we received communication of New

South Wales, what we need delivered – to deliver to the ..... and we needed to

provided announcements of that as well.

MR BEASLEY: All right. Thank you. All right. Yes. Are you aware of the 40

infectious diseases policy of Princess Cruises? It’s one that’s got levels in colour

green, yellow, and red. Are you generally familiar with that?

MR VERWAAL: Yes, sir. General.

45

MR BEASLEY: Do you recall what level the ship was at when it docked in Sydney

on the 8th of March?


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: We operated in the red level.

MR BEASLEY: And I take it you were operating – what does the red level mean,

first of all?

5

MR VERWAAL: It means that we are – that is the – the most advanced cleaning

techniques and procedures.

MR BEASLEY: I see. And that was as a result of risks relating to COVID-19, I

assume? 10

MR VERWAAL: No, because we did not know we had COVID-19.

MR BEASLEY: No. No. I’m not suggesting you did, but it was as a result of risks

relating to it? 15

MR VERWAAL: No. It was as a result of the flu-like – the – the increase of flu-

like symptoms.

MR BEASLEY: Okay. And was the ship – did the ship retain in that red zone 20

throughout the voyage of 8 to 19 March?


MR BEASLEY: All right. Thanks. I don’t have any further questions for the 25

witness, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Verwaal, the flu-like symptoms, did you understand that

they were an occurrence that gave rise to the possibility of undiagnosed COVID-19?

30


COMMISSIONER: And that was part of what you understood to be the company’s

thinking that you would be at red level in terms of infectious disease control?

35


COMMISSIONER: The procedures you’ve described, including the departure –

disembarking of the self-isolated passengers last of all, did you understand them, on

the 19th of March, to be part of a company approach to reduce the risk of contagion 40

including of COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: Sorry, Commissioner. Could you repeat the question?

COMMISSIONER: Of course. 45


MR BEASLEY SC

MR VERWAAL: You are less – less clear – less clear than the other gentleman that

interviewed me.

COMMISSIONER: In so many ways. Did you understand that the purpose of

having the self-isolated passengers disembark last included the company trying to 5

reduce the risk of contagion including of COVID-19?

MR VERWAAL: Yes. I think that is correct. But again, we were not aware that

we had COVID-19. But yes.

10

COMMISSIONER: Let me make it clear. I’m not suggesting that you knew or

believed you had COVID-19. But you did - - -

MR VERWAAL: Yes.

15

COMMISSIONER: - - - know that swabs had been taken that had not yet been

tested for it. Is that correct?


20

COMMISSIONER: And so you understood there was an unexcluded, real

possibility that unfortunately, some one or more passengers may have it. Is that

correct?

MR VERWAAL: That is correct, and that’s why we were surprised that we were 25

not screened by New South Wales in the morning.

COMMISSIONER: Now, do you recall on the 19th of March observing any

involvement of any kind in the disembarkation on the part of officers of the

Australian Border Force? 30

MR VERWAAL: No. I do not recall that at all.

COMMISSIONER: Does that mean that so far as you recall, you did not observe

any ABF involvement at all? Is that - - - 35

MR VERWAAL: At all.

COMMISSIONER: That’s correct, is it?

40


COMMISSIONER: Does it follow, then, that so far as you recall, there was, for

example, nothing done to check passports? Is that right?

45

MR VERWAAL: I have – I now – I – there were border patrol force, I think border

patrol force, in the terminal, at the end of the terminal when guests were leaving. But


MR BEASLEY SC

I think that was not for guests, but it was for crew when crew was leaving. I have

been in the terminal several times, I would say two, three times, and I did not observe

any control at that point.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. At any time during the 18th of March, before and 5

after you heard that New South Wales Health did not want to come onboard, or on

the 19th of March before disembarkation was finished, did you have any

communication yourself with managers or executives of the company that employed

you concerning the disembarkation?

10

MR VERWAAL: Not that I recall.

COMMISSIONER: Ms Furness, any - - -

MS FURNESS: Nothing from me, Commissioner. 15

COMMISSIONER: Sorry. Mr - - -

MR BEASLEY: I don’t think – I just – can I just ask another couple of questions.

Sir, I forgot to ask you, were any members of the crew, and any – that obviously 20

includes any members of the staff that you supervised, were any of them due to leave

the ship on the 19th of March?

MR VERWAAL: We had a regular crew disembarkation on the 19th of March.

25

MR BEASLEY: And did those crew leave?

MR VERWAAL: They left. Yes.

MR BEASLEY: And have you been in contact with any of those crew since they 30

left?


MR BEASLEY: Right. All right. That was it. 35

COMMISSIONER: Mr McLure?

MR McLURE: No. Thank you.

40

MR BEASLEY: Thank you very much for your time, Mr Verwaal. We appreciate

it greatly, and good luck.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Verwaal, may I say thank you very much. I do appreciate

how awkward it is on the day of your intended departure, and I’m obliged for your 45

assistance. Thank you. You are now discharged. You are now discharged.


MR VERWAAL: Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, sir.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Can we cut the link?

5

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.29 am]

MR BEASLEY: I think I mentioned yesterday that I would tender documents that I

either ask people questions about or that I had reference to for the purposes of asking 10

questions. They’re not on a form yet ready to tender. Others will be marked for

identification. There’s also some audio records – audio recordings that I’ll be

tendering, and they’re not in a form yet, so that’ll be done in due course.

COMMISSIONER: Well, can I propose that that be done in such a way that the 15

solicitors instructing - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: - - - Ms Furness and Mr McLure are informed in writing of the 20

- - -

MR BEASLEY: That’ll be done before - - -

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 25

MR BEASLEY: - - - they’re tendered.

COMMISSIONER: Thanks.

30

MR BEASLEY: In case there’s an issue. I already know from Ms Furness that she

suggested that the names of the passengers in the log be redacted for privacy reasons

because it reveals health issues. I certainly have no difficulty with that.

COMMISSIONER: No. I’m sympathetic with the notion - - - 35

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: - - - from time to time, as and when passengers supply

information to this Commission. However, a different approach will be taken - - - 40

MR BEASLEY: I did suggest - - -

COMMISSIONER: - - - at least at first - - -

45

MR BEASLEY: - - - it didn’t make much sense for the two passengers that were

taken off the ship by - - -


COMMISSIONER: No.

MR BEASLEY: - - - ambulance because - - -

COMMISSIONER: I just want to make it clear, the notion of anonymous evidence 5

being given to this Commission - - -

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: - - - is very different from redacting for the time being - - - 10

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: - - - the personal details of people who may not be anywhere

near the heart of matters. 15

MR BEASLEY: All right. Well - - -

COMMISSIONER: So I think we – I’ll direct now that matters proceed in terms of

tendered material from this – from these two days of hearing to redact the identity of 20

individual patients. That is for the time being and is subject to further and opposite

direction. And, in particular, it should not be understood by anybody that anybody

could give evidence to this Commission anonymously or by a pseudonym except for

very good cause shown.

25

MR BEASLEY: Yes.


MR BEASLEY: In relation to – I think Mr McLure and Ms Furness have all of the 30

documents I’ve been referred to. In case they don’t, they’ll be made available before

they’re tendered.


35

MR BEASLEY: As will the ability for them to listen to any audio recordings I want

to tender.

COMMISSIONER: In due course, the Commission staff will no doubt be

addressing the making available in the appropriate form of exhibited material 40

publicly.

MR BEASLEY: Yes. There’s nothing further for today, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Then the Commission hearings are adjourned sine 45

die. There will be more ample notice in advance of future hearings than we were


able to give this week, and the best and only authoritative source of that notice will

be the website of this Commission.

MR BEASLEY: We’re setting up a Twitter handle for you, Commissioner, that

you’ll be able to tweet when you’re having hearings, amongst other things you may 5

want to share with the public.

COMMISSIONER: I wouldn’t want anyone to think that a Twitter handle will be

manipulated by me in any way at all. I repeat, it’ll be the website.

10

MR BEASLEY: All right. Well, we’ll stick with my suggestion, which was

Instagram, so - - -

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We’re now adjourned. Thank you.

15

MATTER ADJOURNED at 11.34 am INDEFINITELY


Index of Witness Events

CHARLES VERWAAL, AFFIRMED P-116

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BEASLEY SC P-116

THE WITNESS WITHDREW P-146

Index of Exhibits and MFIs

transcript of proceedings · 2020-04-24 · transcript of proceedings o/n h-1188258 mr b. walker...

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