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212-400-8845 - [email protected] Legal Solutions

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON

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SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,

MOHAMED AHMED BEN SOUD, OBAID

ULLAH (as Personal

Representative of GUL RAHMAN),

Plaintiffs, Civil Action N o.

vs. 2:15-CV-286-JL Q

JAMES ELMER MITCHELL and

JOHN "BRUCE" JESSEN,

Defendants.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM

VOLUME I

March 14, 2017

Reported by:Jane M. Borrowman, RPR, CSR Job no: 18303


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2 DEPOSITION OF: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM

3 LOCATION: Hogan Lovells 22 Fredman Drive

4 Sandton, Johananesburg, South Afric a

5 DATE: March 14, 2017

6 TIME: 10:08 a.m.

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1 APPEARANCES:

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:

3 Paul L. Hoffman, Esq.

4 SCHONBRUN SEPLOW HARRIS & HOFFMAN, LLP

5 200 Pier Avenue

6 Hermosa Beach, California 90254

7 310-396-0731

8 [email protected]

9 - and -

10 Steven M. Watt, Esq.

11 AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION FOUNDATION

12 125 Broad Street - 18th Floor

13 New York, New York 10004

14 212-284-7321

15 [email protected]

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17 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:

18 James T. Smith, Esq.

19 Charrise L. Alexander, Esq.

20 BLANK ROME, LLP

21 1825 Eye Street NW

22 Washington, DC 20006-5403




1 ALSO PRESENT:

2 Ms. Margaret Odanga, Swahili Interpreter

3 Mr. Samuel Kendagor, Swahili Interpreter

4 Mr. Bill Slater, Videographer

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1 I N D E X

2 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM - VOLUME 1

3 Examination by Mr. Smith ........................ 8

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6 E X H I B I T S

7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

8 1 Document produced by the United States

9 government, bearing Bates Nos. 001530 through 1538 84

10 8 Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial 84

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is media No. 1

3 in the video deposition of Suleiman Abdullah

4 Salim in the matter of Suleiman Abdullah

5 Salim, et al. versus James Mitchell, et al.,

6 United States District Court for the Eastern

7 District of Washington, Civil Action No.

8 2:15-CV-286-JLQ.

9 This deposition is being held at th e

10 offices of Hogan Lovells, 22 Fredman Drive, in

11 Johannesburg, South Africa, on March 14th,

12 2017. The time is approximately 10:08 a.m.

13 My name is Bill Slater from the fi rm

14 of TransPerfect. I am the legal video

15 specialist. The court reporter is Jane

16 Borrowman in association with TransPerfect

17 Legal Solutions.

18 Will counsel please voice identify

19 themselves for the record.

20 MR. SMITH: Jim Smith for the

21 defendants, here with Charrise Alexander.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Paul Hoffman for the

23 plaintiff.

24 MR. WATT: Steven Watt for the


1 plaintiff.

2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court

3 reporter please swear in the witness and the

4 interpreter.

5 (Whereupon, MARGARET ODANGA was dul y

6 sworn to interpret the questions from Englis h

7 into Swahili, and the answers of the witness

8 from Swahili into English.)

9 (Witness sworn.)

10 MR. SMITH: Okay. So, Margaret,

11 your last name?

12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: O-D-A-N-G-A.

13 MR. SMITH: For the record, I'm ju st

14 going to refer to you as "Margaret." Is th at

15 acceptable to you?

16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: That's fine.

17 MR. SMITH: Okay. So, Margaret, a s

18 you know, you are the official interpreter for

19 this proceeding, but prior to going on the

20 record, I just want to put it on the record

21 the ACLU has also brought an interpreter,

22 Samuel.

23 Samuel, what is your last name?

24 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Kendagor.


1 K-E-N-D-A-G-O-R.

2 MR. SMITH: And may I call you

3 "Samuel" on the record?

4 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yes.

5 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

6 We have an understanding, Margaret,

7 that if there is some dispute about the

8 interpretation that you're giving to the

9 witness, either of my questions or the

10 witness's answers, Samuel will just simply

11 raise his hand, which means everybody pause s

12 until we determine if we have an issue and how

13 we're going to work it out.

14 Fair enough?

15 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sure.

16 MR. SMITH: Okay.

17 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,

18 a witness called for examination by counsel

19 for the Defendants, being first duly sworn,

20 was examined and testified as follows:

21 EXAMINATION

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Could you state your name for the record,

24 please, sir.


1 A. Suleiman Abdullah Salim.

2 Q. Mr. Salim, good morning. My name is Jim Smi th

3 and I represent the defendants who have been

4 named in a lawsuit pending in the United

5 States District Court for the Eastern Distri ct

6 of Washington in which you are a plaintiff.

7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: This is the

8 interpreter. I would like to request that y ou

9 talk in short segments.

10 MR. SMITH: Yes. Absolutely. Sha ll

11 we start all over again?

12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Please.

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Mr. Salim, good morning. My name is Mr. Ji m

15 Smith and I represent defendants Mitchell a nd

16 Jessen in a lawsuit pending in the United

17 States District Court for the Eastern Distr ict

18 of Washington in which you are a plaintiff.

19 A. Fine.

20 Q. You're aware of that, is that correct, sir?

21 A. You know my lawyer.

22 Q. Okay. But is he aware that he is a plainti ff

23 in a lawsuit pending in the United States o f

24 America?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Have you ever given a deposition

3 before?

4 A. How?

5 Q. Has he ever given sworn testimony under oath

6 before?

7 A. Like now?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. In what proceedings?

11 A. Now.

12 Q. Okay. Prior to today, has he ever done it

13 before?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Has anyone explained to you the significanc e

16 of testifying under oath?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And you understand that you have an

19 absolute obligation to tell the whole truth

20 and nothing but the truth?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you understand that you could be subjec ted

23 to penalties if you don't tell the truth?

24 A. Yes.


1 Q. And do you intend to tell the truth today,

2 sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you ever been known by any other names

5 other than Suleiman Abdullah Salim?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me what other names you've been

8 known by?

9 A. Maurice Ngaka.

10 Q. Could you spell that for the record, please .

11 A. N for Nancy, G for Greg, A for apple, K for

12 kilo, A for apple.

13 Q. Any other names?

14 A. Issa Tanzania.

15 Q. Will you spell that for the record, please.

16 A. I-S-S-A, then Tanzania.

17 Q. Any other names?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Do you presently go by the name

20 Suleiman Abdullah Salim?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you presently use any of those other

23 names?

24 A. No.


1 Q. Now, Mr. Salim, I want to just talk about

2 procedure during this deposition. I'm going

3 to be asking you a series of questions.

4 From time to time, your lawyers may

5 be placing objections on the record, and the n

6 you will be answering the questions, unless

7 instructed not to.

8 Everything that everyone says while

9 we're on the record is taken down by the

10 official court reporter, which is the perso n

11 two people to your left.

12 You understand that the videograph er

13 is not the official court reporter?

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. It's important that only one of us speak at a

16 time. It's also important that you give

17 verbal responses to my questions.

18 A. Fine.

19 Q. The court reporter cannot transcribe nonver bal

20 forms of communication. Do you understand

21 that?

22 A. Fine.

23 Q. If I ask you a question today that you don' t

24 hear, just tell me and I'll have the court


1 reporter read it back.

2 A. Fine.

3 Q. And if I ask you a question that you don't

4 understand, just tell me and I'll rephrase t he

5 question to make sure that the answer you gi ve

6 is to a question you fully understand.

7 A. Fine.

8 Q. Okay. And if at any time during the

9 proceeding you need to take a break, just te ll

10 me and I will do everything I can to

11 accommodate that request.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, are you taking any

14 medication that would affect your ability t o

15 recall events?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. Okay. Did you do anything to prepare for y our

18 deposition today?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you meet with your lawyers prior to you r

21 deposition? Just answer the question yes o r

22 no.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When did you meet with your lawyers?


1 A. Are you asking for today or?

2 Q. Prior to this deposition, how many times did

3 you meet with your lawyers?

4 A. We were together.

5 Q. Were you together yesterday?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. For how many hours?

8 A. I can't know how many hours.

9 Q. Why can't you tell me how many hours?

10 A. Because I don't know.

11 Q. Was it more than three hours?

12 A. We were together, we ate together. I can't

13 know how many hours.

14 Q. Okay. Was the purpose of being together wi th

15 your lawyers to prepare for your deposition ?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I don't want to know what you said, but

18 did you discuss your anticipated testimony?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how many days before that did you meet

21 with your lawyers to get ready for your

22 deposition?

23 A. Like four days.

24 Q. Four days in a row?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how many hours did you spend with your

3 lawyers on each of those days getting ready

4 for your deposition?

5 A. I can't really remember, either it was two o r

6 three hours. Not really sure.

7 Q. And did you -- did you review any documents

8 during the course of the preparation?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Who was present when you were getting

11 prepared?

12 A. Paul.

13 Q. Paul. Was Samuel present?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Anyone else?

16 A. Steven.

17 Q. Anyone else?

18 A. Just those.

19 MR. SMITH: The videographer is

20 having a technical issue and he's asking to go

21 off the record.

22 INTERPRETER: The time is 10:23.

23 We're off the record.

24 (Brief pause.)


1 INTERPRETER: We're back on the

2 record. The time is 10:24.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Mr. Salim, when is the first time that you m et

5 Mr. Paul Hoffman?

6 A. I can't remember the day.

7 Q. Can you approximate?

8 A. Maybe on the 3rd or the 2nd. I'm not really

9 sure.

10 Q. I'm sorry. What was the answer?

11 A. Maybe on the 3rd or on the 2nd, but I'm not

12 really sure of the date.

13 Q. The 3rd or the 2nd of what?

14 A. This month.

15 Q. Okay. Had you ever met Mr. Hoffman before

16 then?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Had you ever talked to him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When did you meet Mr. Watt, Steven Watt, fo r

21 the first time?

22 A. I can't remember the day.


24 A. Are you talking of the day or where we met?


1 Q. Either one, or both.

2 A. I can't remember the date, but the place was

3 in Dubai.

4 Q. And how long ago was it?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Was it this year?

7 A. Not this year.

8 Q. When did you stop using the name Maurice?

9 A. That has been my name since I was young.

10 Q. When did you stop using it?

11 A. I've not stopped using it. Some people sti ll

12 calls me that name.

13 Q. I thought you testified earlier today that you

14 stopped using that name.

15 A. Maybe I did not understand the question.

16 Q. Okay. But you presently still go by the na me

17 Maurice?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When did you stop using the name Ngaka?

20 A. I can't say that I stopped using it because

21 there are some people that still calls me t hat

22 name.

23 Q. When did you start using the name Ngaka?

24 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Did you say


1 start?

2 MR. SMITH: Start, yeah.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can

4 answer.

5 (Discussion held off the record.)

6 MR. SMITH: Let's ask. Do you want

7 the objection translated, Mr. Hoffman?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't think we need

9 to, just to move through.

10 MR. SMITH: You don't need to

11 translate the objection.

12 Did you translate the question, wh en

13 did he start using the name Ngaka?

14 (Translating.)

15 THE WITNESS: People used to call me

16 with that name. I was not using that name.

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. When did people start calling you that name ?

19 A. I can't remember very well, but it is aroun d

20 1986.

21 Q. And who gave you that name?

22 A. '86, '87.

23 Q. Okay. Who gave you that name?

24 A. Just the young men, the men.


1 Q. Where were these young men from?

2 A. Dar es Salaam.

3 MR. SMITH: Could you spell that,

4 please.

5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I'm not very

6 sure of the spelling, but it's a city in

7 Tanzania. I'll just try my best.

8 MR. SMITH: Sure.

9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: It's D for

10 David, A for apple, R for Robert, E for

11 Edward, S for Sam, A for apple, L for Lauri e,

12 A for apple, M for Mary.

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Okay. And do you recall the circumstances

15 under which these young men from Dar es Sal aam

16 gave you this name?

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Go ahead .

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 BY MR. SMITH:

20 Q. Can you explain?

21 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He's asking m e

22 if I know something.

23 A. So there is a game and the way it's describ ed

24 is like a box and it has holes and you try to


1 -- it's like a table. There's a hole here

2 (gesturing), at the corners, and then you --

3 you play. There's some sticks that you play

4 with. So that thing is called "carom," the

5 game. So we would play this game.

6 One person would be at the other en d

7 and another person at this end, the other

8 person on the other end and another person a t

9 this end. So I would tell the person facing

10 me that "I will close on you."

11 So there is an insect that is call ed

12 "Ngaka," and this insect, when it goes to

13 water, it sinks. So they use the term, lik e

14 if I "close on you," like I'm sinking on yo u.

15 (Witness speaking to interpreter.)

16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I think I

17 misunderstood that a little bit.


19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. I thin k

20 I got it.

21 A. So this insect that is called "Ngaka," it's --

22 like it comes with good luck. So like let' s

23 say we have rice, we have water, we have

24 different types of food, so if it choose -- if


1 it choose to go to water, then we'll have a

2 lot of rain.

3 So if we are playing the game and I

4 close on somebody, then it's like everybody is

5 going to be closed on, and then they call me

6 "Ngaka."

7 Q. Okay. Thank you.

8 And when were you known by the name

9 Issa Tanzania?

10 A. Around '94, '95.

11 Q. And who gave you that name?

12 A. In my identification card --

13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Can I

14 just ask for a clarification?

15 MR. SMITH: As an interpreter, you

16 need a clarification from me?

17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: From

18 Mr. Suleiman.

19 MR. SMITH: You want something tha t

20 he said clarified just so --

21 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yeah.

22 MR. SMITH: -- the record's clear,

23 so you want to talk to Samuel?

24 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Did you get


1 what he said?

2 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yeah.

3 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay.

4 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: And he picke d

5 an identity card for Kenya.

6 COURT REPORTER: I'm having trouble

7 hearing you.

8 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Okay. He

9 picked up an identification card in Kenya. In

10 that identification card, it asked what the

11 name. Issa. But no picture, no photo. So he

12 used that identity card with the name Issa.

13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Yeah.

14 So he picked up an ID card that had the nam e

15 Issa. The ID card had no picture, but he w as

16 a Tanzanian.

17 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.


19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: If somebody

20 asked me "where you from," I tell them "I a m

21 from Tanzania."

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Can I just suggest

23 that we're going to go a lot faster if you

24 focus on answering the specific question


1 that's asked you, rather than give a long

2 explanation.

3 (Translating.)

4 MR. HOFFMAN: You don't need to

5 answer anything. Just wait for a question.

6 BY MR. SMITH:

7 Q. Mr. Salim, do you speak English?

8 A. A little.

9 Q. Well, did he say "a little" or did he say

10 "yes"?

11 MR. HOFFMAN: He just said "yes, a

12 little."

13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said

14 "yesse," (phonetic) it means more.

15 MR. SMITH: Oh, okay. I heard

16 "yes," so that's why you're here. Okay.

17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yesse.

18 (Phonetic.)

19 MR. SMITH: Okay.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. When did you start speaking English?

22 A. When I was in jail, at the jail.

23 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to this

24 identification from Kenya. Who issued the


1 identification in Kenya?


3 answer.

4 BY MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Mr. Salim.

6 A. Huh?

7 Q. Do you understand the question?

8 A. I understand.

9 Q. Okay. Who issued the identification?

10 A. Fahid.

11 Q. Who is Fahid?

12 A. My friend.

13 Q. And how is it that you got to know this man ,

14 Fahid?

15 A. I knew him because he had a store.

16 Q. What kind of store?

17 A. Clothing store.

18 Q. And why is it that he issued this

19 identification to you?

20 A. So while I was in Kenya, the police were

21 searching. If you didn't have identificati on,

22 then you'd be in trouble. So I would show

23 that identification, that I have ID card.

24 Q. Was it a false identification?



2 answer.

3 THE WITNESS: It was a valid one.

4 It was not false.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Tell me why it wasn't false.


8 answer.

9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He's asking,

10 can he -- can I clarify? He's trying to

11 understand, when you say "objection," does

12 that mean that he's not supposed to talk or ...

13 MR. HOFFMAN: You translate. If I

14 say "objection," he can still answer the

15 question.


17 MR. HOFFMAN: Unless I instruct hi m

18 not to answer.


20 (Translating.)

21 THE WITNESS: Can you ask your

22 question again?

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. Let me ask a different question. Did you


1 understand what Mr. Hoffman said just now,

2 before the interpreter translated it,

3 Mr. Salim?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. SMITH: Okay. So let me just

6 ask if, maybe, we could go off the record fo r

7 a second.

8 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10:40.


10 (Brief pause.)

11 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.

12 The time is 10:41.

13 MR. SMITH: Just for the record, I

14 took a quick break and asked Mr. Hoffman if he

15 would consider just using an interpreter wh en

16 the witness asks for an interpretation, but he

17 said that he didn't believe Mr. Salim's

18 English was good enough. So I'll accept th at

19 and we'll just keep marching on.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Mr. Salim, did you ever present this

22 identification to Kenyan police or other

23 officials using the name Issa Tanzania?

24 A. No.


1 Q. That wasn't your real name, is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yes, that's correct, it was not his real nam e?

4 A. It wasn't a real name.

5 Q. And why were you in Kenya?

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection as to -- as

7 to time, actually.

8 When are you asking him?

9 MR. SMITH: That doesn't work,

10 Mr. Hoffman. You say "objection" and, then , I

11 can --

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, but it's going

13 to be a --

14 MR. SMITH: Speaking objections

15 don't work, Mr. Hoffman. Okay? If you wan t

16 to go off the record and ask the witness to

17 leave the room to put a speaking objection on

18 the record, you can. So please don't do it .

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, then, maybe

20 we'll just -- we'll just make objections th at

21 -- with -- with real objections rather than

22 just put it on the record.

23 MR. SMITH: If you want to use tim e

24 to put an explanation for your objection. All


1 of your arguments are preserved if you say

2 "objection." So there's no reason to do it.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Do you understand my question, sir?

5 A. Repeat the question.

6 MR. SMITH: Sure. Could I ask the

7 court reporter to read it back.

8 (Whereupon, the question was read

9 back by the court reporter as

10 follows: "And why were you in

11 Kenya?")

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.

13 THE WITNESS: I was working.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. He was walking?

16 A. Working. Working. (Phonetic: Walking.)

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Working.

18 MR. SMITH: Working. Oh, working.

19 BY MR. SMITH:

20 Q. When did you start working in Kenya?

21 A. I can't really recall, but it was in the '9 0s,

22 maybe '91.

23 Q. Okay. Now, I think you said you started us ing

24 the name Issa Tanzania in 1994, 1995, is th at


1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But, yet, you started working in Kenya in, y ou

4 think, 1991?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So why did you wait three years or so to get

7 this identification?


9 answer.

10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Did you say h e

11 can answer?

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: In '94, that's when I

14 was now living in Kenya and working in Keny a.

15 '91, I was operating from Dar es Salaam to

16 Kenya, Kenya to Dar es Salaam.

17 MR. SMITH: Okay. Got it. Thank

18 you.

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Thank you.

20 MR. SMITH: And just so we're clea r

21 while there's no question pending, would yo u

22 tell the witness that unless his lawyer

23 instructs him not to answer the question, t hat

24 even though there's an objection, he should


1 answer the question.

2 (Translating.)

3 THE WITNESS: Fine.

4 BY MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, presently, where do you

6 live?

7 A. In Zanzibar.

8 Q. What is your address?

9 A. I don't use any address, it's just Zanzibar.

10 Q. Does he have a home address?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you live in a home in Zanzibar?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who owns the home?

15 A. My mom.

16 Q. Okay. And how long have you lived there?

17 A. I'm with my mom.

18 MR. SMITH: Could I ask the questi on

19 be read back to the witness.

20 (Whereupon, the last question was

21 read back by the court reporter a s

22 follows: "And how long have you

23 lived there?")



1 answer.

2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. Do you understand that question, Mr. Salim?

4 A. Yes, I understand it.

5 Q. How long have you lived at this home in

6 Zanzibar?

7 A. I can't remember. Since I came from jail.

8 Q. Okay. And do you know the address but you

9 don't want to tell me?

10 A. In Zanzibar, we don't have addresses at hom es

11 like you do in America.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Or in Europe.

14 Q. Okay. All right. And what is your date of

15 birth, sir?

16 A. September 25th, 1971.

17 Q. And where were you born, in what country?

18 A. The country is Tanzania, in Zanzibar, in

19 Zanzibar.

20 Q. And what is your present country of

21 citizenship?

22 A. Tanzania.

23 Q. And has that always been the case?

24 A. Yes.


1 Q. Are you married?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what is your wife's name?

4 A. Sharifa.

5 Q. Can you spell that for me, please.

6 A. It's S-H-A, R for Robert, I for India, F for

7 Frank, A for apple.

8 Q. And how long have you been married?

9 A. Around six years. I'm not very sure.

10 Q. Approximately, six years?

11 A. Something like that.

12 Q. Okay. Do you have any children?

13 A. One.

14 Q. And what is your child's name?

15 A. Mariam.

16 Q. And do you live with your wife and your chi ld?

17 A. I don't live with my child, but my wife, ye s.

18 Q. And where is your child, presently?

19 A. At the grandparents.

20 Q. Okay. Have you ever been married before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And when were you married previously ?

23 A. 2003.

24 Q. And for how long were you married?


1 A. Like two weeks.

2 Q. And what was your previous wife's name?

3 A. Magida. M for Mary, A for apple, G for Greg ,

4 I for India, D for David, A for apple.

5 Q. Do you have any children with Magida?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And how long had you been with Magida, datin g,

8 before you were married?

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you ca n

10 answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Was it more than a year?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. When is the last time he spoke with Magida?

16 A. The day I was arrested.

17 Q. And do you know where Magida is now?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Have you attempted to find her since you we re

20 released from prison?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I want to ask you about your educational

23 background.

24 A. Fine.


1 Q. So let's just go through your schooling firs t.

2 Did you graduate from high school or an

3 equivalent?

4 A. I don't know how to differentiate schooling.

5 I just know school.

6 Q. Okay. So let's just start with when did you

7 start going to school?

8 A. I don't remember the year.

9 Q. Well, you were born in 1971.

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. So, obviously, sometime thereafter, you

12 started going to school, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. For how many years did you go to school?

15 A. I can't remember, but I can say maybe eight h

16 grade.

17 Q. Eighth grade. Okay.

18 And did you have any formal

19 education beyond the eighth grade?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, I want to ask you about your employmen t

22 background and I want to try to do it

23 chronologically.

24 Are you with me?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When is the first job that you remember you

3 had?

4 INTERPRETER: When?

5 MR. SMITH: Yes.

6 (Translating.)

7 THE WITNESS: When, I can't tell.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Okay. Can you approximate?

10 A. If you say "when," it's a little confusing.

11 Q. Sure.

12 A. If you ask which year, then I can tell you the

13 year.

14 Q. Well, when I -- could you explain when I sa y

15 "when," he can tell me which year.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. So let's go to your first employment. Do y ou

18 remember your job?

19 A. I remember.

20 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what the job was?

21 A. I was working in a store.

22 Q. How old were you?

23 A. I'm not sure, but around 16 or 17.

24 Q. Okay. And what kind of store was it?


1 A. Clothing store.

2 Q. Okay. And how long did you work there?



5 A. I think up to around the ninety -- around '9 0.

6 Q. Around 1990?

7 A. Yeah, 1990. I'm just estimating, but I'm no t

8 sure.

9 Q. Okay. Estimates are fine.

10 And what did you do for the clothi ng

11 store?

12 A. I was selling.

13 Q. Okay. And where was this store located?

14 A. In Dar es Salaam.

15 Q. And why did you leave?

16 A. The owner of the store got rid of the store ,

17 he sold the store.

18 Q. Okay. So what was your next job after --

19 strike that.

20 What was the name of the store?

21 A. It did not have any name.

22 Q. Okay. What was your next job after that?

23 A. Business.

24 Q. What do you mean by that?


1 A. I was doing transportation, picking up like

2 luggages and taking it to other places.

3 Q. And so you were transporting luggage from on e

4 place to another?

5 A. Like from Dubai to Zanzibar.

6 Q. Was there a company that you worked for?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Who owned the business?

9 A. Me.

10 Q. Okay. What was the name of the business?

11 A. I did not give it a name.

12 Q. And can you tell me who your customers were ?

13 A. I didn't have any specified customers. I

14 would just go to the stores and showed them

15 what I have to see if they like.

16 Q. Mr. Salim, I thought you said that you were

17 transporting luggage from Dubai to Zanzibar .

18 Did I hear you correctly?

19 A. I did not transport. I would go to Dubai t o

20 buy like pants, shirts, and then I bring ba ck

21 to Zanzibar.

22 Q. And how would you travel to Dubai to get th ese

23 pants and shirts?

24 A. By plane.


1 Q. Okay. And then you would bring back this

2 merchandise and sell it in Zanzibar?

3 A. Some in Zanzibar, some in Dar es Salaam.

4 Q. Okay. And for how long, what period of time

5 did you engage in this activity?

6 A. It was a very short time.

7 Q. More than a year?


9 Q. Okay. And what was your next job after that ?

10 A. After that, I would go to Mombasa and come

11 back to Dar es Salaam. I would get bed cov ers

12 from Mombasa and bring to Dar es Salaam.

13 Q. And during what period of time did you do

14 that?

15 A. I'm not really sure, but around 1991.

16 Q. Okay. And what did you do after that?

17 A. So after that is when I lived in Mombasa,

18 working in a boat from Malindi to Lamu and

19 sometimes Somalia.

20 Q. So that started in 1992, approximately?

21 A. 1994, 1995.

22 Q. Okay. 1994, '95. Okay.

23 And you say you lived on a boat or

24 you worked on a boat?


1 A. Worked.

2 Q. Worked on a boat?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. And you were living where?

5 A. When I'm transporting, I will just sleep in

6 the boat.

7 Q. Okay. And when he wasn't transporting, wher e

8 were you living?

9 A. I would operate between Malindi and Lamu.

10 Did you ask, also, when I started

11 working?

12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He wants to g o

13 back a little bit.

14 MR. SMITH: The witness wants to g o

15 back?

16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yes.

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, is there something you wa nt

19 to say for the record?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

22 A. When you asked me when I started working, i t's

23 a little confusing because, as a young pers on,

24 as a young man, I was fishing. I started


1 fishing.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. So that's what I wanted to clarify.

4 Q. Okay. So I asked you do you recall about yo ur

5 work experience, and you started, I think,

6 when you were 16 or 17 years old and you

7 described it.

8 Do you remember that?

9 A. Yeah, around 16 or 17.

10 Q. And do you recall the various jobs that you

11 told me about from 16 or 17 up through the

12 years 1994 and '95?


14 answer.


16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. Okay. And is there anything that you told me

18 that's incorrect?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Object.

20 THE WITNESS: I say it's correct.

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. It is correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. So I want to go, now, to 1994, 1995.


1 A. Fine.

2 Q. That was the year you took a job on a boat?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who owned the boat?

5 A. Fahid.

6 Q. Was that the same Fahid that gave you the

7 identification from Kenya?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know if Fahid was affiliated with any

10 Al-Qaeda activities?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So let's go back, then. You were working o n

13 Fahid's boat. How long did you work on the

14 boat?

15 A. Until 1998.

16 Q. Okay. How many other people worked on the

17 boat?

18 A. Just me, we were two, but we were coming an d

19 going, so on and off.

20 Q. Was there one boat or more than one boat?

21 A. One.

22 Q. Okay. How big was the boat?

23 A. I don't recall very -- I don't remember ver y

24 well, but it was about 8 to 9 meters.


1 Q. So approximately 27, 28 feet?

2 A. I don't understand these numbers with the

3 feet.

4 Q. Okay. What kind of merchandise were you

5 transporting on this boat?


7 answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I would carry things

9 like soap, rice, sugar, and sometimes

10 transport people.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. And where would you pick up this -- this so ap

13 and rice and sugar?

14 A. I would pick them from Malindi and take the m

15 to Lamu.

16 Q. Where is Malindi?

17 A. Malindi's in Kenya.

18 Q. And where is La-mee (phonetic)?

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: La-moo.

20 (Phonetic.)

21 MR. SMITH: Or Lamu.

22 INTERPRETER: L-A-M-U.

23 THE WITNESS: In Kenya.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


1 Q. And did you also say that you transported to

2 Somalia?

3 A. Sometimes I would go to Somali to get dry fi sh

4 and, then, I bring it to Malindi.

5 Q. What is Fahid's full name?


7 Q. Does the -- do you know if his -- Fahid's fu ll

8 name is Fahid Mohamed Ally Msalam?

9 A. I can remember Fahid Mohamed, but not the

10 other one.

11 Q. Okay. And you stopped transporting this fi sh

12 and other materials in 1998, is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Why?

15 A. The boat was taken away from me.

16 Q. Who took the boat away from you?

17 A. The Somali people.

18 Q. Can you describe the circumstances under wh ich

19 the boat was taken away?

20 A. I was just on my daily business and the peo ple

21 came, the Somali came, they had guns and th ey

22 said they were taking my boat away.

23 Q. Okay. Do you know who these Somali people

24 were?


1 A. I didn't know them.

2 Q. Did they shoot at you?

3 A. No, they did not shoot.

4 Q. Okay. And after that, what was your next jo b?

5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Can I ask him

6 to repeat?

7 MR. SMITH: Sure.

8 (Translating.)

9 A. So, up till that, I was doing fishing and,

10 also, I was working at the port. So like w hen

11 the ship came, we would help to pack them.

12 Q. How long did you do that?

13 A. It was just a few months.

14 Q. Okay. Who issued a paycheck to you for doi ng

15 the work at the port?


17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: The Somali.

19 BY MR. SMITH:

20 Q. Okay. And where were you living at the tim e

21 when you were doing this employment?

22 A. Kismayu.

23 Q. I'm sorry?

24 A. Kismayu.


1 Q. Can you spell it, please.

2 A. K-I-S-M-A-Y-U.

3 Q. And where is that located?

4 A. Somalia.

5 Q. Okay. And you said you did that job for a f ew

6 months?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And why did you stop that job?

9 A. Because I was not getting -- I was not being

10 paid well.

11 INTERPRETER ODANGA: And he said

12 something about the guns, so.

13 (Translating.)

14 THE WITNESS: All the time, they

15 would put the gun on me to go get the ship and

16 come and pack.

17 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. Go get the

18 sheep?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Ship.

20 MR. SMITH: Ship.

21 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Ship, yeah.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Okay. Okay. All right. So that's why you

24 left that job?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So what was your next job after that?

3 A. Driver.

4 Q. A driver. Where?

5 A. In Mogadishu.

6 Q. What did you drive?

7 A. A car.

8 Q. Okay. For what purpose?

9 A. Someone would employ me to be a driver, like I

10 take the kids to school and pick them up fr om

11 school and go buy them stuff.

12 Q. And during what period of time did you enga ge

13 in this employment?

14 A. It was around '98.

15 Q. '98. And how long did you do this job as a

16 driver?

17 A. Until I was arrested in 2003.

18 Q. So your testimony is that from 1998,

19 approximately, until you were arrested in

20 2003, you were employed as a driver?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection and you ca n

22 answer.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was driver,

24 but still I would do some other side jobs,


1 like work for somebody in the store.

2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. Any other side jobs?

4 A. I was working with polio people.

5 Q. Polio?

6 A. Polio.

7 (Translating.)

8 A. Yes, polio.

9 Q. Okay. Any others?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What was the name of the company that emplo yed

12 you as a driver?

13 A. It wasn't a company.

14 Q. Who owned the automobile that you drove?

15 A. Abdul Salam.

16 Q. Who was Abdul Salam?

17 A. He's a Somali.

18 Q. And how did you meet him?

19 A. So in Mogadishu, I was just asking for help .

20 And then he asked me "are you asking for he lp,

21 you don't have a job?" So that's how he ga ve

22 me the job.

23 Q. Okay. So you were living in Somalia?

24 A. Yes.


1 Q. Was your first wife from Somalia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you employed as a fisherman at any time

4 between 1998 and 2003?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Mr. Salim, do you have any difficulties

10 recalling events from the late '90s or earl y

11 2000s?

12 A. I am very forgetful. Even things that

13 happened yesterday, I can forget.

14 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, are you permitted to ente r

15 the United States of America?


17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: I don't understand.

19 How?

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Are you permitted to go to the United State s

22 of America?

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. You

24 can answer.


1 THE WITNESS: Like asking for a

2 visa?

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Well, however you would get there, do you kn ow

5 if you are permitted to enter the United

6 States of America?

7 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. Have you tried to enter the United States o f

11 America in the last two years?

12 A. I was trying -- I tried to look for a visa.

13 Q. Okay. And tell me what you did to try to

14 enter the United States of America through

15 acquiring a visa.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm going to object

17 and ask him only to answer if he can do so

18 without disclosing attorney/client

19 communications.

20 (Translating.)

21 THE WITNESS: Say it again.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I said -- I'm sorry

23 it's confusing, but I don't want you to giv e

24 any information that was given to you by yo ur


1 lawyers, only if you personally know what wa s

2 done to get a visa.

3 (Translating.)


5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Mr. Salim, let me ask you again, are you

7 permitted to enter the United States of

8 America?


10 answer.


12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Isn't it true that you tried to enter the

14 United States of America and you were denie d

15 acceptance -- or entry, rather, denied entr y?


17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: I tried to look for a

19 visa, to ask for a visa.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Do you have any understanding why you are n ot

22 permitted to enter the United States of

23 America?

24 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll object and


1 instruct him not to answer on that if he was

2 -- got that information from his lawyers.

3 MR. SMITH: Well, that's not legal

4 advice, Mr. Hoffman.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, it is.

6 MR. SMITH: No, it's not. If you'r e

7 repeating what you were told by --

8 MR. HOFFMAN: It's a confidential

9 communication between his lawyer and -- a

10 lawyer and client.

11 MR. SMITH: All right. I can't

12 change your mind on that, so.

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you have no

15 understanding, other than through your

16 lawyers, why you're not permitted to enter the

17 United States of America?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you personally attempt to acquire a vis a

20 to come to the United States of America?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did someone on your behalf attempt to acqui re

23 a visa?

24 A. No.


1 Q. Well, let me make sure I got this right. Do

2 you know if you or anyone on your behalf eve r

3 attempted to acquire a visa to come into the

4 United States in connection with this case?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Who?

7 A. My lawyer.

8 Q. Okay. All right. Were you ever personally

9 interviewed by anyone in connection with

10 attempting to get a visa to the United Stat es

11 for this case?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever attempt to travel to the natio n

14 of Dominica?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And why is it that you were attempting to

17 travel to Dominica?

18 A. This case.

19 Q. And were you able to get to Dominica?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can you tell me why?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please tell me.

24 A. I tried twice. The first time, I went to


1 Dar es Salaam. They told me that I can't go

2 because, first of all, I will pass through

3 many countries that doesn't give Tanzania --

4 any Tanzanian any visa.

5 I tried the second time. I got up

6 to Abu Dhabi. The people in Abu Dhabi told me

7 that I cannot proceed to Dominica because I' ll

8 pass through so many countries in transit.

9 Q. And did they tell you why you couldn't get

10 through those countries?

11 A. They told me that I can't go in transit

12 through -- from Dar es Salaam to 0man to

13 Abu Dhabi to France, there is another count ry

14 I can't remember, to Dominica. I can't go.

15 Q. Did they tell you why you couldn't go?


17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: They told me I can't

19 go through transit in these countries.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Did they tell you why you couldn't go throu gh

22 transit in these countries?

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can

24 answer.


1 THE WITNESS: I have -- I have

2 answered your question. They told me I cann ot

3 go to -- through this because I'm passing

4 through these countries.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Did they tell you why you couldn't pass

7 through those countries?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll -- I'll object t o

9 that on the grounds this, now, has been aske d

10 four times and I'll instruct you not to ans wer

11 it. Move on. He's just given you the answ er.

12 You may not like it, but that's the answer.

13 MR. SMITH: Okay, Mr. Hoffman, you

14 know what, those kind of comments don't hel p

15 at all. Tell me why the witness -- what hi s

16 answer was when he explained why he --

17 MR. HOFFMAN: His answer is he

18 was --

19 MR. SMITH: -- couldn't go through

20 those countries.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: His answer was that he

22 was told that he couldn't go because of the

23 number of countries he had to go through, a s

24 in Tanzania.


1 MR. SMITH: And my question was "di d

2 they tell you why you couldn't pass through

3 those countries."

4 And if the answer is, "no, they

5 didn't," I'll accept that answer.

6 And you and I both know that he

7 hasn't answered that question. So why you

8 would instruct the witness not to answer aft er

9 I've flown all these miles to take this

10 witness's deposition really annoys me. Oka y.

11 And I'll -- look, let me ask the question o ne

12 more time.

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Did those officials tell you why you couldn 't

15 pass through those countries? Yes or no.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. He

17 can answer, if he can.

18 MR. SMITH: Maybe you should tell

19 the witness to answer the question.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Why don't you just

21 stop it. Don't badger the witness.

22 MR. SMITH: I'm not badgering --

23 MR. HOFFMAN: He's trying to do it .

24 MR. SMITH: -- the witness.


1 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, you are.

2 MR. SMITH: The answer is just yes

3 or no, they either told me or they didn't te ll

4 me.

5 (Translating.)

6 THE WITNESS: I want to ask you one

7 question.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. You want to ask me a question?

10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He want to gi ve

11 you -- say something.

12 A. I want to give you my view.

13 Q. Well, the witness can certainly say whateve r

14 he wants to say. I'll strike it if it's no t

15 responsive to the question, but if the witn ess

16 would just answer my question, we could mov e

17 this along more quickly.


19 can answer, if you can.

20 THE WITNESS: Don't be so harsh on

21 me, like the other people that asked me

22 question. Just be -- go slow and I'll answ er

23 the questions.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


1 Q. Fair enough. So, Mr. Salim, let me -- let m e

2 just ask you, you were told, I guess at

3 Abu Dhabi, that you couldn't pass through

4 other countries by officials at Abu Dhabi.

5 Do you remember you said that to me ?

6 A. I don't know how to answer this. I got to

7 Abu Dhabi, they asked me where I was going. I

8 told them I was going to Dominica.

9 They asked me where is the visa for

10 France -- Dominica. I said there's no --

11 there's no visa. I showed them the paper

12 showing that, as a Tanzanian, I don't need a

13 visa to go to Dominica.

14 They refused. You can't go -- the y

15 said you can't go to -- you can't go to

16 Dominica because you pass through many

17 transits.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. That was the answer.

20 Q. And did they explain to you, in words or

21 substance, why you wouldn't be permitted to

22 pass through those transits?


24 answer.


1 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: I think he

2 said something. He said he was -- he was --

3 he was -- he was told you don't have visa fo r

4 France, and since he's passing France, that he

5 cannot go.

6 MR. SMITH: Okay.

7 (Interpreters discussing.)

8 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. He just

9 said that he was told he couldn't go because

10 he's passing many transits.

11 MR. SMITH: Okay.

12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He didn't say

13 France in particular.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. So let me make sure I got it clear. When y ou

16 were in Abu Dhabi, did they tell you you

17 couldn't get through France without a visa,

18 and you didn't have a visa to get through

19 France, was that the problem?


21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I'm saying it again.

23 I got to Abu Dhabi. I was told at Abu Dhab i

24 that I can't go to Dominica because I'm


1 passing many transits. This idea of having

2 France visa, I was told when I was in

3 Dar es Salaam.

4 MR. SMITH: Okay.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Is it appropriate to

6 have a short break?

7 MR. SMITH: Do you need to take a

8 break?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10 MR. SMITH: Okay. Let's take a

11 break.



14 (Brief pause.)

15 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the


17 MR. SMITH: Mr. Hoffman, there's

18 something you want to say?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. There was a

20 question that you asked and I'm not sure I got

21 it down exactly, but I think it called for

22 whether he had been interviewed by American

23 officials, and I think he answered no at th e

24 time.


1 And I don't know if that's because

2 he misunderstood it, but there were two time s

3 when he was interviewed by embassy officials ,

4 and I just wanted you to know that so you

5 could ask him questions about that in

6 connection with getting an American visa.

7 You should -- can you -- can you

8 translate that for him? Or you weren't tryi ng

9 to get that. Shall I say it again or...

10 (Translation.)

11 COURT REPORTER: You can read it

12 here.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: You want to read it or

14 maybe --

15 COURT REPORTER: She can read it.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, she can read it.

17 Okay. Why don't you do that. That would b e

18 the easiest, probably.

19 (Interpreter reading to the witnes s

20 from court reporter's laptop.)

21 MR. HOFFMAN: There's no -- she's

22 just reading what I said and, then, he'll a sk

23 the questions of you.

24 (Translating.)


1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. Mr. Salim, would you like to, in any way,

3 supplement answers that you've given me?

4 A. About what?

5 Q. Well, about the subject matter that was just

6 brought to my attention by your lawyer.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. So is it your testimony that you

9 actually were interviewed by officials in

10 connection with attempting to get a visa?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were these American officials?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. How many times?

15 A. Two times.

16 Q. And did you forget to tell me about those w hen

17 I asked you earlier today?


19 answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand

21 the question.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. You didn't understand. Okay.

24 So do you remember, when we starte d


1 the deposition, I said if there's a time whe n

2 you don't understand the question, just tell

3 me and I'll repeat it or rephrase it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Why didn't you ask me to repeat it or rephra se

6 it?


8 answer.

9 THE WITNESS: I've told you right

10 now.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Okay. So tell me, you were interviewed two

13 times by US officials in connection with

14 getting a visa?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When was the first time?


18 Q. Was it this year?

19 A. I think it was last year, but I'm not sure.

20 Q. And where did the interview take place?

21 A. Inside American embassy.

22 Q. Okay. Where, what country?

23 A. In Tanzania.

24 Q. Okay. And you were trying to get a visa to


1 come where?

2 A. To come to America.

3 Q. Okay. And did the US officials at the

4 American embassy issue a visa?

5 A. I did not get a visa.

6 Q. Did they tell you why?

7 A. They said they were going to talk to my

8 lawyer.

9 Q. Okay. Did they tell you why they wouldn't

10 issue a visa to you?

11 A. They did not tell me.

12 Q. Okay. And then you tried again at the same

13 American embassy in Tanzania?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was that this year?


17 Q. Okay. So it was either this year or last

18 year?


20 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the

21 year, but it didn't -- it didn't take long

22 from the first time I asked for the visa. I

23 just -- it didn't take long before I went b ack

24 to look for the second time.


1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. The second time. Okay.

3 So the first time was sometime last

4 year, right?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: For sure, I don't

8 remember the year. I -- and I remember goin g

9 twice.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. Okay. The second time, did the United Stat es

12 embassy issue a visa?

13 A. They did not.

14 Q. Do you know why?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Okay. So sitting here today, do you have a ny

17 understanding why you can't get a visa into

18 the United States?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. And I'll obje ct

20 to that to the extent that it asks you to

21 testify about anything that your lawyers ha ve

22 told you. So you can only testify about

23 things that your lawyers did not tell you o n

24 that subject.



2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. Are you unable to answer the question?

4 A. I've already answered the question.

5 Q. Do you have any understanding, other than

6 through communications with your lawyers, wh y

7 you couldn't get into the United States with a

8 visa the second time you applied?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, you said you were arrested in 2003?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who arrested you?

13 A. The Somali.

14 Q. Can you identify who from Somalia arrested

15 you?

16 A. They were just Somali.

17 Q. Were they Somali police?

18 A. But then, there were no policemen in Somali a.

19 Q. Okay. Were they warlords?

20 INTERPRETER: Warlords?

21 Q. Let me withdraw the question.

22 Do you know the identity of the

23 people who arrested you in Somalia, who the se

24 Somalians were?



2 answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I was arrested by

4 Somali.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. I understand. Do you know who these Somalia ns

7 were, their identities?


9 answer.

10 THE WITNESS: I was just kidnapped

11 on the road and they were just Somali. I

12 didn't know who.

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Okay. You say you were kidnapped on the ro ad.

15 Can you explain to me the circumstances und er

16 which you were kidnapped?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me what happened.

19 A. I was driving. People came and put -- drew a

20 gun and point it at me. I came out and the y

21 took me.

22 Q. Okay. Where were you taken?

23 A. In the hospital.

24 Q. To a hospital?


1 A. (Nodding.)

2 Q. Do you know the name of the hospital?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Okay. And do you know why you were taken to a

5 hospital?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me?

8 A. Yes. I was beaten. They beat me a lot.

9 Q. So they beat you when they pulled you over o n

10 the side of the road?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were beaten to the point where you

13 needed to be taken to the hospital?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the same people that beat you took you to

16 the hospital?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When did this happen in 2003?

19 A. I don't remember the month, but it was in

20 2003.

21 Q. Okay. Do you remember what time of the yea r

22 it was?


24 Q. Was anyone with you in that car when you we re


1 pulled over by these Somalis?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was with you?

4 A. Abdul Salam.

5 Q. And where were the two of you going?

6 A. I was taking him to his job.

7 Q. And was he taken into captivity, too?

8 A. No.

9 Q. He was not?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So you were the driver of the car and he wa s

12 the passenger?

13 A. He's the owner of the car.

14 Q. Yes. He was a passenger in the car when yo u

15 were pulled over by these Somalis?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then these Somalis pulled the car over,

18 dragged you out and beat you, but left him in

19 the car?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you c an

21 answer.


23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. And the Somalis, then, put you into their c ar


1 and took you to the hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And they left Abdul Salim (sic) behind with

4 his car?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever see Abdul Salim again?

7 A. I saw him at the hospital.

8 Q. Okay. Is that the hospital that the Somalis

9 took you to, is that where you saw him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you don't remember the name of the

12 hospital?

13 A. I don't.

14 Q. Okay. Did you receive medical treatment at

15 the hospital?

16 A. A little.

17 Q. Okay. How long were you in the hospital?

18 A. I can't remember very well, but it was from

19 the time I was arrested in the morning up t ill

20 night.

21 Q. Okay. And during that period of time, Abdu l

22 Salim came and saw you, he visited you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you ever see him again after that?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me what

3 injuries you were treated for while you were

4 at the hospital for that day?

5 A. Say it again.

6 Q. You were taken to the hospital for -- until

7 that evening. Do you recall you told me tha t?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And during that period of time at the

10 hospital, you received treatment for injuri es?

11 A. It was not really treatment. I remember th ey

12 put two tubes in my nose and one tooth was

13 removed.

14 Q. Okay. Did you have any other injuries that

15 you received no treatment?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were the injuries for which you receiv ed

18 no treatment?

19 A. My fingers.

20 Q. Okay. Which fingers?

21 A. On the right-hand side.

22 Q. Okay. Were your fingers broken?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you received no treatment?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ask for treatment?

3 A. They couldn't treat me.

4 Q. Do you know why they couldn't treat you?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Okay. Were there medical doctors at the

7 hospital available to treat you?

8 A. Maybe there was.

9 Q. Do you recall interacting with any medical

10 doctors while you were at the hospital that

11 day?


13 Q. Okay. Were you free to leave the hospital

14 that day?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Who was holding you in captivity?

17 A. The Somali.

18 Q. At gun point?

19 A. They did not put the -- point the gun at me ,

20 but they were just around.

21 Q. Okay. All right. Were there any other

22 injuries that you sustained from that beati ng

23 for which you didn't receive medical

24 treatment?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What were the other injuries?

3 A. My nose.

4 Q. Okay. What happened to your nose?

5 A. This side, it got fractured here.

6 (Gesturing.)

7 Q. Okay. Did you ever receive treatment for a

8 fractured nose?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Any other injuries?

11 A. My jaws.

12 Q. Was your jaw broken?

13 A. It was just hurting so, a lot.

14 Q. I'm sorry. It was?

15 A. It was hurting a lot.

16 Q. You mean swollen?

17 A. No. Painful.

18 Q. Painful. Okay.

19 Any other injuries?

20 A. My ears.

21 Q. What happened to your ears?

22 A. It was bleeding.

23 Q. Okay. Any other injuries?

24 A. I don't remember right now. If I remember,


1 I'll let you know.

2 Q. Okay. And did you ask to be treated for the se

3 other injuries?

4 A. I want to tell you, there was no means of

5 treating me at this hospital because they to ok

6 me -- they took me away to another place.

7 Q. Okay. All right. But my question, I guess,

8 is did you ask to be treated while you were at

9 the hospital for these other injuries?


11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Is there a --

13 (Interpreter discussion.)

14 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Meaning the y

15 -- they didn't have any intention of treati ng

16 in that hospital. There was no intention - -

17 the doctor didn't have the intention to tre at

18 him in the hospital.

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: They didn't

20 have intention to treat me.

21 MR. SMITH: They did not have an

22 intention?

23 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Uh-huh.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


1 Q. Okay. So did you receive any medical

2 treatment while you were at the hospital?

3 A. The only thing I remember is them inserting

4 the pipe.

5 Q. Okay. All right. And then you left the

6 hospital that evening?

7 A. At night.

8 Q. Okay. And you were taken away by the same

9 Somalis who took you into captivity?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you ever find out the identity of the

12 Somalis that took you into captivity?

13 A. I remember one was called Mohamed Deere, he

14 was kind of like the boss.

15 Q. How do you spell his last name?

16 A. D-E-E-R-E.

17 Q. Did you ever learn the identity of any of t he

18 other Somalis?

19 A. They were just Somalians.

20 Q. Okay. Where did they take you that night?

21 A. The airport.

22 Q. Where?

23 A. Mogadishu.

24 Q. And it was Mohamed Deere and his people tha t


1 took you to the airport?

2 A. I remember something like that.

3 Q. Was anyone else taken with you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And when you got to the airport, what

6 happened?

7 A. Some Americans came.

8 Q. And what happened?

9 A. They took my fingerprint.

10 Q. Anything else?

11 A. They asked me questions. They told me that

12 I've changed my appearance, I'm not Suleima n.


14 A. Just that.

15 Q. Okay. Did you tell them -- strike that.

16 Did they ask you for your name?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What name did you give them?

19 A. Suleiman Abdullah Salim.

20 Q. Okay. How many Americans were there that

21 interviewed you?

22 A. I don't recall very well. Could be four or

23 five.

24 Q. And how long did this questioning last?


1 A. Not too long.

2 Q. Okay. And what happened after the

3 questioning?

4 A. They took me by their own plane to another

5 airport.

6 Q. Who took you?

7 A. The Americans.

8 Q. So the Somalians turned you over to American s?

9 A. I'm not sure if they turned me, but I was

10 taken by American from there.

11 Q. Were the Somalians still with you when you got

12 in the airport?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. And where were you taken to?

15 A. Another airport.

16 Q. And you were taken there by the same Americ ans

17 who interviewed you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And what happened at the next airpor t?

20 A. Another plane came --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- to take me.

23 Q. Tell me what happened.

24 A. Took me to Kenya.


1 Q. And were these Americans who took you on thi s

2 plane?

3 A. Kenyans.

4 Q. So the Americans turned you over to Kenyan

5 officials?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you know where this airport was

8 located?

9 A. Mogadishu.

10 Q. And where were you taken to by the Kenyans?

11 A. To the police.

12 Q. To the police station?


14 Q. Okay. In Mogadishu?

15 A. In Kenya.

16 Q. Kenya, okay.

17 And how long were you kept at the

18 police station?

19 A. I don't remember very well, but it's betwee n

20 seven and eight days.

21 Q. Okay. Were any Americans involved during

22 these seven or eight days?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So there were Americans at the Kenyan polic e


1 station?

2 A. I want to clarify that. I was in Kenya, the y

3 asked me questions, then Americans also came

4 and asked me questions.

5 Q. At the police station?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. All right. And you were held there f or

8 seven to eight days?

9 A. Yes, something like that.

10 Q. And you were being held by Kenyan officials ,

11 correct?


13 answer.

14 THE WITNESS: I was in Kenya, but I

15 didn't know who I was under now, whether I was

16 under America or Kenya. I only know I was in

17 Kenya.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Do you know, now, whether you were being he ld

20 by Kenyan officials during those seven to

21 eight days?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll object to that to

23 the extent that it asks for attorney/client

24 communications. So if you can answer witho ut


1 that, that's fine.

2 (Translating.)

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Are you able to answer the question, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What is your answer?

7 A. Can you ask the question again?

8 Q. Sure. I'll have the court reporter read it

9 back.

10 (Whereupon, the record was read ba ck

11 by the court reporter as follows:

12 "Do you know, now, whether you wer e

13 being held by Kenyan officials

14 during those seven or eight days? ")

15 (Translating.)

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Is there a problem?

17 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: No. I --

18 there was a word, maybe, she should have us ed.

19 (Interpreter Kendagor discussing.)

20 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. He

21 wanted me to say it, so I'll just go ahead and

22 say what I said.

23 (Interpreter Odanga translating

24 question again.)


1 THE WITNESS: I can't know who was

2 holding me, but the Kenyan police told me th at

3 I did not -- I was not -- I did not do

4 anything wrong, but because I was injured, t he

5 American people are going to take me to trea t

6 me because I was -- just to give me my right s.

7 BY MR. SMITH:

8 Q. You were told that while you were being held

9 at this station?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Do you know the name of that Kenyan

12 police officer?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, while you were held during these seven or

15 eight days in this station, were you

16 interrogated by anyone?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. By whom?

19 A. Both Kenyans and Americans.

20 Q. Do you have any memory of the interrogation s

21 by the Kenyan officials?

22 A. They asked me questions like where were you

23 born, where you from, and then they told me I

24 was innocent.


1 Q. Innocent of what?

2 A. I don't know. They arrested me and they tol d

3 me I didn't have -- I didn't do anything.

4 Q. Who arrested you?

5 A. The Somali.

6 Q. But did the Kenyans arrest you?

7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can

8 answer.

9 THE WITNESS: The Somalians arreste d

10 me, they handed me over to Americans, the

11 Americans handed me over to Kenyans.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Okay. Were you under arrest by the Kenyans ?


15 answer.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, with Kenyans an d

17 Americans.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Okay. Now, were you free to leave this

20 facility where you were being held?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who told you that you were not free to leav e?


24 answer.


1 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.

2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. Who told you that you were not free to leave ?


5 answer, if you can.

6 THE WITNESS: I was under the

7 police. If I was in my -- in a room, if I

8 left the room, I was going to the bathroom,

9 and I was under them.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. While you were there for the seven or eight

12 days, were you held in a cell?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And who controlled the cell, was it Kenyans or

15 Americans?



18 THE WITNESS: Kenyans.

19 BY MR. SMITH:

20 Q. Okay. And you're saying that while you wer e

21 held during these seven or eight days, you

22 were also questioned by Americans?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many times?



2 Q. Was it more than once?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember how many Americans?

5 A. The one that asked -- interrogated me?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. I don't remember. Maybe one.

8 Q. Okay. Can you describe that person for the

9 record?


11 Q. Was the person dressed in a military outfit ?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you remember any questions that the

14 American asked you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was it a man or a woman who was asking you

17 questions?

18 A. A man.

19 Q. Okay. Tell me what you recall about the

20 questions that were asked and the answers t hat

21 you gave.



24 THE WITNESS: It's more the


1 questions that you asked me, where I was bor n,

2 what I did, from where to -- things like tha t.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of time that y ou

5 were held in captivity for those seven or

6 eight days, were you subjected to any beatin gs

7 by anyone?

8 A. I don't remember being beaten.

9 Q. Okay. Did you sustain any injuries while yo u

10 were held in captivity during those seven o r

11 eight days?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What injuries did you sustain?

14 A. I was having the pain due to the initial

15 injury.

16 Q. Okay. So you were still suffering from the

17 injuries from the beating that you got from

18 the Somalis?

19 A. Yes.

20 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit Nos. 1 a nd

21 8 were marked for identification. )

22 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to hand to you what I 've

23 marked as Exhibit No. 8. Let me just state

24 for the record that my exhibit numbers are


1 tied to an outline, so I'll get back to 1

2 through 7, but here is Exhibit No. 1, Exhibi t

3 No. 8.

4 For the record, let me identify

5 Exhibit No. 8 as a copy of the complaint tha t

6 was filed in the United States District Cour t

7 for the Eastern District of Washington.

8 Mr. Salim, have you seen this

9 document before?


11 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen a version of this

12 document in Swahili?


14 Q. Can't remember.

15 Turn, if you would, to the page

16 that's marked as exhibit -- or page No. 32.

17 Does the witness have page 32 befo re

18 him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. He does not have page 32 in front of him?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: No, he does. He doe s.

22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, I think I

23 -- I thought you were asking me if he had s een

24 it before.


1 MR. SMITH: Okay. No.

2 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sorry.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. So I want to read paragraph No. 72. I'm goi ng

5 to read the first two sentences, the first t wo

6 sentences into the record.

7 Do you see where it says: "On or

8 about March 15, 2003, agents from the CIA an d

9 the Kenyan National Intelligence Service

10 abducted Mr. Salim in Mogadishu," do you se e

11 that?

12 A. I see it.

13 Q. So is it your testimony, sir, that agents f rom

14 the CIA abducted you on or about March 15,

15 2003?

16 A. I said the Somali people.

17 Q. The Somali people. Okay.

18 But let me -- let me move to the

19 next sentence in paragraph 72. Do you see

20 where it says, quote: "He was rendered to

21 Nairobi, Kenya, where he was secretly detai ned

22 and interrogated on a daily basis for some

23 eight days by Kenyan authorities." Do you see

24 that?


1 A. (Translating.)

2 Q. Do you see that, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that true?

5 A. That's what I told you.

6 Q. Well, this, in your complaint here, it says

7 that you were interrogated by Kenyan

8 authorities. Do you see that?

9 MR. HOFFMAN: There's not a

10 question.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Do you see that?


14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: My response to this is

16 that I was asked -- I was interrogated by

17 Kenyans and Americans.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Okay. So when you were being detained for

20 those seven or eight days, is it true that you

21 were being detained by the Kenyan National

22 Intelligence Service?




1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. All right. Okay. Now, during this period o f

3 time that you were questioned by both the

4 Kenyan authorities and the CIA

5 representatives, were you asked about any

6 affiliations that you had with Al-Qaeda?

7 A. They did not mention any Al-Qaeda, but they

8 were asking me if I knew certain people.

9 Q. Were you ever interrogated by American

10 officials about any affiliations that you h ad

11 with Al-Qaeda?


13 answer.

14 THE WITNESS: They never mention - -

15 asked me anything about Al-Qaeda. They jus t

16 asked me question about me.

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. After seven or eight days, you were release d

19 from that facility, is that right?


21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes. I remember.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. Okay. What happened next?


1 A. I remember the Americans came, they took me to

2 the airport.

3 Q. And these Americans, do you know where they

4 were from?

5 A. They told me they were from the embassy.

6 Q. From the embassy. Do you know if they were

7 Army officials?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Were they CIA agents?

10 A. They didn't tell me.

11 Q. They said they were from the US embassy?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. From which country?

14 A. Kenya.

15 Q. And you're saying they took you to an airpo rt?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then what happened when you got to the

18 airport?

19 A. I was taken from Kenyan airport -- I was ta ken

20 from the Kenyan airport to Somali by the

21 American, the first -- the first one that

22 interrogated me are the ones that took me.

23 Q. The Americans who interrogated you when?

24 A. When I was in Somali, the ones that


1 interrogated me when I was in Somali.

2 Q. At the airport?

3 A. Yes, at the airport.

4 Q. And that's -- those same individuals took yo u

5 to the airport in Kenya?

6 A. They are the one that handed me to Kenyans

7 and, then, the Kenyans handed me to the same

8 people that handed me back to Kenyans.

9 Q. Okay. So when you got to the Kenyan airport ,

10 were you taken back to Somalia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And who took you back to Somalia?

13 A. The Americans.

14 Q. Okay. And what happened to you after you g ot

15 back to Somalia?

16 A. I remember being interrogated by one Somali .

17 Q. Where did that interrogation take place?

18 A. It was just like a house.

19 Q. Where in Somalia?

20 A. Bossasso.

21 Q. Okay. So you were -- the Americans brought

22 you to a house where you were interrogated by

23 Somali officials?




2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Okay. How long did that interrogation last?

5 A. It was just a short period.

6 Q. Okay. And during that interrogation by the

7 Somalis, were you beaten?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And what happened after that interrogation?

10 A. I was taken to Djibouti.

11 Q. By whom?


13 Q. And what happened at Djibouti?

14 Let me withdraw the question.

15 Mr. Salim, when you were taken to

16 Djibouti, were you turned over -- you were

17 taken there by Americans, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And were you turned over to others?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How long did you stay in Djibouti?

22 A. It was just hours.

23 Q. Hours. Okay.

24 And you were in custody by the US


1 while you were in Djibouti?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And you stayed there for some hours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where did you stay?

6 A. I think it was just within the airport.

7 Q. Okay. Where within the airport?

8 A. It was just at the airport.

9 Q. Okay. But was it at a hotel at an airport,

10 was it in a conference room at an airport, do

11 you remember?

12 A. I was not seeing anything. I was tied.

13 Q. Okay. All right. Did anything happen to y ou

14 while you were at this airport?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have a memory of what happened to yo u?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What happened?

19 A. I was raped.

20 Q. And who raped you?


22 Q. Were these American soldiers?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. How do you know they were Americans?


1 A. They were the people who got me from Kenya t o

2 Somali and their voices were just the same.

3 Q. Did you ever see their faces?

4 A. I saw one.

5 Q. Okay. And was it more than one of these

6 Americans who raped you?

7 A. I think it was just one.

8 Q. Okay. Do you know if this American was a CI A

9 agent?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. And can you describe this individual who ra ped

12 you?


14 Q. Okay. Did anyone observe this?


16 answer.


18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Okay. And you were taken from that airport to

20 where?

21 A. Afghanistan.

22 Q. Where in Afghanistan?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Who took you there?


1 A. The same people.

2 Q. Okay. And when you got to Afghanistan, wher e

3 did you go?

4 A. "The Darkness."

5 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

6 A. It's a jail, darkness jail.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. In Afghanistan?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How do you know that you were in Afghanista n,

12 did someone tell you?

13 A. At the end, I knew.

14 Q. So, originally, when you got there, you did n't

15 know where you were?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And did you -- do you have a memory of

18 when you arrived at this place in Afghanist an?

19 A. No, I don't remember.

20 Q. But it was in 2003?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Is this a good time to

24 break?


1 MR. SMITH: Sure. We're going to

2 break for lunch. Go off the record.

3 VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 12:41. We'r e

4 off the record.

5 (Lunch break.)



8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Mr. Salim, are you ready to proceed?

10 A. I'm ready.

11 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, just before the lunch bre ak,

12 you testified about being transferred to wh at

13 you later came to know as Afghanistan.


15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were taken to a place that you refe r

17 to as darkness. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And, Mr. Salim, do you now know that place to

20 be also referred to as Cobalt?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. How long were you kept at this place that y ou

23 refer to as darkness?

24 A. Not very sure, but I think about two months .


1 Q. Two months.

2 And where were you taken to after

3 that?

4 A. From there, I was taken to a place known as

5 "salt pit."

6 Q. Do you know where this salt pit was located?

7 A. I don't know exactly, but it was not too far

8 away from "The Darkness."

9 Q. Okay. Do you think salt pit was also locate d

10 in Afghanistan?

11 A. I think so.

12 Q. And how were you transferred from darkness to

13 salt pit?

14 A. By car.

15 Q. Okay. And how long were you kept at salt p it?

16 A. About a year and something.

17 Q. A year and several months?

18 A. One year and several months.

19 Q. Okay. And after salt pit, where were you

20 taken to?

21 A. Bagram.

22 Q. And what did you understand Bagram to be?

23 A. Can you ask again?

24 Q. You said that you were taken to Bagram.


1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Where is that located?

3 A. In Afghanistan.

4 Q. And did you understand this to be a prison o f

5 some sort?

6 A. It's like prison.

7 Q. Okay. And how long were you kept there?

8 A. I think four years and some months.

9 Q. And you were released from Bagram when?

10 A. About 2008.

11 Q. Okay. And what did you do when you were

12 released from Bagram?

13 A. I went home.

14 Q. And where was home then?

15 A. Zanzibar.

16 Q. Okay. And have you left -- well, strike th at.

17 Do you have any memory of being

18 interrogated by either American military

19 officials or CIA agents, or both, while you

20 were being detained?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I'm going to hand to you what we've marked in

23 the case as Salim Exhibit No. 1.

24 Have you seen this document before


1 today?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I want to direct your attention -- well, let

4 me identify it for the record. This is a

5 document that was produced by the United

6 States government, it bears Bates labels

7 001530 through 1538.

8 I want to direct your attention,

9 sir, to the first page of Exhibit No. 1. Do

10 you have it before you?

11 A. Fine.

12 MR. SMITH: Margaret, do you have

13 the document before you?

14 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I was going t o

15 take it, but Paul, you --

16 MR. HOFFMAN: What do you need?

17 It's there.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Okay. I want to read from first paragraph.

20 Do you see where it says "Action Required,"

21 and then there's redacted information.

22 "Candidates qualify to be transferred to th e

23 joint interrogation facility provided," the n

24 there's a space that's been redacted by the


1 government, "agrees to, one, provide more

2 capture data as stated below prior to transf er

3 of enemy combatants."

4 Let me stop right there.

5 A. (Translating.)

6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Can you just

7 say it, then I translate it, because I have

8 trouble reading small writing.

9 MR. SMITH: Sure.

10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Like just say

11 it and, then, I'll translate it.

12 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, Margaret, I 'm

13 not understanding what you're asking me to do.

14 INTERPRETER: I'm saying I don't

15 have my glasses to read.

16 MR. SMITH: Oh.

17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: So I'm having

18 trouble reading.

19 MR. SMITH: Okay.

20 INTERPRETER ODANGA: So if you cou ld

21 just read it and you pause, I'll translate it

22 for him what you're saying here.

23 MR. SMITH: Okay.

24 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yeah.


1 MR. SMITH: Do you have your glasse s

2 that you can get them or...

3 INTERPRETER ODANGA: No. No. No.

4 I don't have them.

5 MR. SMITH: Oh, okay. All right.

6 BY MR. SMITH:

7 Q. Do you see -- does the witness see and

8 understand the first sentence that we've rea d

9 so far?



12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. He doesn't understand the first sentence?



16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. Were you ever told by anyone from the Unite d

18 States government that you were being held as

19 an enemy combatant?

20 A. Never.

21 Q. Read on in the same paragraph, the next

22 sentence, it says: "Present the candidates to

23 the Detainee Review Board for low level ene my

24 combatant (LLEC) status."


1 Let me stop right there. Do you se e

2 that?

3 A. I don't understand it.

4 Q. Okay. Were you ever told that you would

5 appear before the Detainee Review Board for

6 low level enemy combatant status?

7 A. Never.

8 Q. Did you ever appear before the Detainee Revi ew

9 Board?

10 A. I don't understand.

11 Q. Did you ever appear before the Detainee Rev iew

12 Board while you were held captive by the

13 United States government?

14 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he ca n

15 answer.

16 THE WITNESS: No.

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. Turn, if you would, to Bates page last four

19 digits 1534 of Exhibit 1.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: It's two pages in.

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. Do you see where it says in paragraph 3:

23 "Suleiman Abdullah was captured," and then

24 there's a space, "Abdullah is a Tanzanian


1 national suspected of involvement in

2 Al-Qaeda's East Africa cell."


4 A. (Translating.)

5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sorry. Can yo u

6 just repeat that again?

7 MR. SMITH: Which part do you want

8 me to repeat?

9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Just after he

10 was captured.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. "Abdullah is a Tanzanian national suspected of

13 involvement in Al-Qaeda's East Africa cell" is

14 what I read.

15 A. (Translating.)

16 Q. Did the United States government ever tell you

17 that you were suspected of involvement in

18 Al-Qaeda's East Africa cell?


20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: They've never told m e.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Reading on, it says: "Specifically as a

24 facilitator of Al-Qaeda's 1998 attacks agai nst


1 the US embassies in Nairobi, Nairobi, Kenya,

2 and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania."

3 Do you see that?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Is there a question?

5 MR. SMITH: The question is the

6 question that was asked, Mr. Hoffman. If yo u

7 don't remember it, you can --

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't.

9 MR. SMITH: -- ask the court

10 reporter to read it back.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Could you rea d

12 it back. Thanks.



15 "Reading on, it says: 'Specifical ly

16 as a facilitator of Al-Qaeda's 19 98

17 attacks against the US embassies in

18 Nairobi, Nairobi, Kenya, and

19 Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.'

20 "Do you see that?")

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you see that, oka y.

22 (Translating.)

23 THE WITNESS: Are you telling me

24 that I was involved?


1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. No. What I'm asking you is -- I'll ask the

3 question differently.

4 Were you ever asked by United State s

5 government officials whether or not you were a

6 facilitator of Al-Qaeda's 1998 attacks again st

7 US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and

8 Dar es Salaam, Tanzania? Did they ever ask

9 you that?


11 THE WITNESS: They never asked me.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Reading on in that same paragraph, it says:

14 "Abdullah denied having detailed prior

15 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks." Le t

16 me stop right there.


18 Q. Did you ever deny to United States governme nt

19 officials that you had detailed prior

20 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks?


22 answer.

23 THE WITNESS: Repeat, again, the

24 question.


1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. Did you ever deny to United States governmen t

3 officials that you had any detailed prior

4 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: They did not tell me

8 directly that I was involved.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. I'm not asking that. I'm asking, did you e ver

11 deny to the United States government offici als

12 that you had any detailed prior knowledge o f

13 the 1998 embassy attacks? Yes or no.


15 answer.

16 Is there an issue?

17 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: I just want ed

18 to, maybe, use another phrase to -- to clar ify

19 to him what the question was.

20 MR. SMITH: Samuel, let me ask, yo ur

21 job, at least as I appreciate it, is to mak e

22 sure that the interpretation that Margaret is

23 giving, you believe, is an accurate one.

24 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: No. She's


1 asking it correctly.

2 MR. SMITH: Okay.

3 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: But --

4 MR. SMITH: Then, I think we

5 should --

6 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: -- there wer e

7 some --

8 MR. SMITH: Yeah. I can't comment

9 on that, but my job is to make sure that she

10 asks the questions in what we all believe t o

11 be an accurate translation.

12 I don't know if it's accurate or

13 not, but you do. If you have a problem wit h

14 it, raise your hand; if you don't, if she d id

15 it accurately, then I want her to ask my

16 question exactly the way I asked it.

17 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Okay.

18 MR. SMITH: And if we need to go o ff

19 the record, I'm happy to do that, if there' s

20 some better way to do this, but I don't wan t

21 there to be any translation in between so t hat

22 the question the witness is answering isn't

23 exactly the one that I asked him, if you

24 follow what I'm saying.



2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. Okay. Now, having said all that, does the

4 witness remember the question?

5 A. I have never been asked any question regardi ng

6 my involvement with attack.

7 Q. Okay. So you never denied having detailed

8 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks to any

9 United States officials?


11 answer.

12 THE WITNESS: Reframe the question .

13 MR. SMITH: Well, let me have the

14 court reporter read it back.


16 read back by the court reporter.)

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. Let me ask you, sir, what about that questi on

19 don't you understand?

20 A. Your question is you want to know if I've e ver

21 denied involvement in the attack?

22 Q. No. If he ever denied having detailed prio r

23 knowledge of the attacks in 1998 on the

24 embassy facilities mentioned in that


1 paragraph.


3 answer.

4 THE WITNESS: I refuse.

5 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry?

6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said "I

7 refuse."

8 MR. SMITH: He refuses to answer th e

9 question?

10 (Translating.)

11 THE WITNESS: So I answered the

12 question when you asked me if I was involve d

13 in the attack of the embassy.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. That wasn't my question. Mr. Salim, listen

16 very carefully to my question, please.

17 A. That's why I've asked twice.

18 Q. Okay. So listen carefully. This document

19 that was produced by the United States

20 government says that you denied having

21 detailed prior knowledge of the 1998 embass y

22 attacks.


24 Q. Did you deny to American officials that you


1 had detailed prior knowledge of the 1998

2 embassy attacks, as it states in this

3 document?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Objection .

5 You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

7 BY MR. SMITH:

8 Q. Okay. So you were questioned about whether or

9 not you had knowledge of the attacks in

10 Nairobi and in Dar es Salaam by US official s,

11 isn't that correct?

12 A. I don't remember that question.

13 Q. Reading on in this document produced by the

14 government, it says, quote: "But admitted

15 that he was aware of impending attacks."

16 Let me stop right there. Did you

17 admit to the United States government rep - -

18 or to United States government representati ves

19 that you were aware of impending attacks?


21 THE WITNESS: No.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. What's his answer?

24 A. No.


1 Q. Okay. Reading on in the document produced b y

2 the government, it says: "And admitted that

3 he was recruited as a facilitator by Al-Qaed a

4 operatives."


6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I didn't get

7 that quite.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Sure. Reading on in this document produced by

10 the government, it says: "And admitted tha t

11 he was recruited as a facilitator by Al-Qae da

12 operatives."

13 A. No.

14 Q. You never admitted that to the government, US

15 government?


17 THE WITNESS: No.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. In this document, it says that he was -- or

20 that he "admitted that he was recruited as a

21 facilitator by Al-Qaeda operatives for his

22 local knowledge, language skills and

23 boat-driving ability."

24 Did you ever admit those things to


1 the United States government?

2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you

3 can --

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: No, okay.

6 BY MR. SMITH:

7 Q. You never admitted that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Reading on in the next paragraph, it says,

10 paragraph 4: "Evidence: Custodial debrief ing

11 sessions of Abdullah revealed the following

12 information."

13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Can you just

14 explain custodial?

15 MR. SMITH: I'm just reading from

16 the document. It says "custodial briefing

17 sessions." Custodial means you're in custo dy.

18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh.

19 (Translating.)

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Do you have any memory of the custodial

22 interrogations, the questions that you were

23 asked and the answers that you gave, sir?

24 A. I remember some, but not all.


1 Q. Okay. Let me ask if he has a memory of

2 stating the following to US officials who

3 interrogated him.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. Did you ever tell US officials, quote:

6 "Abdullah is a Tanzanian national born

7 September 24, 1971 in Unguja, Zanzibar"?


9 answer.


11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Did you ever tell US officials when you wer e

13 in custody, quote: "He previously traveled on

14 Tanzanian Passport No. AI -- I'm sorry --

15 A0173854, issued 27 June 1997, which expire d

16 26 June 2002." Let me stop right there.

17 (Translating.)

18 MR. SMITH: Oh, you can't see

19 without your glasses.

20 (Translating.)

21 THE WITNESS: I never told them.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell American officials

24 that you, quote: "First came to Kenya in 1 993


1 and stayed in Mombasa with 1998 East African

2 embassy bombing fugitive Fahid Mohamed Ally

3 Msalam, with whom he trained in Afghanistan" ?


5 answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question

7 again.

8 MR. SMITH: I'm going to have the

9 court reporter read it back.

10 (Whereupon, the record was read

11 back by the reporter as follows:

12 "Did you ever tell American

13 officials that you, quote: 'Firs t

14 came to Kenya in 1993 and stayed in

15 Mombasa with 1998 East African

16 embassy bombing fugitive Fahid

17 Mohamed Ally Msalam, with whom he

18 trained in Afghanistan'"?)


20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: No.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Okay. Did you train in Afghanistan with Fa hid

24 Mohamed Ally Msalam?



2 answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I went to Afghanistan ,

4 but I want to tell you how I went.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. I'm going to get to that, but my question is ,

7 did you train in Afghanistan with Fahid

8 Mohamed Ally Msalam, as it says in this

9 government document?


11 can answer, if you can.

12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He never

13 trained with him.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Did you ever train in Afghanistan?

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection.


18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. When did you train in Afghanistan?

20 A. I'm not sure, but it was between 1993 or 19 94.

21 Q. And how long did you train in Afghanistan?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. He

23 can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: I got trained only


1 once.

2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. How long did you train in Afghanistan?


5 can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Training or the whole

7 stay?

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Mr. Salim, you testified that you trained in

10 Afghanistan. Do you recall that?


12 THE WITNESS: But I told you I got

13 trained one time.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Okay. But let's stay with my questions.

16 How long did you train in

17 Afghanistan?

18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: How long did

19 you stay in Afghanistan?

20 MR. SMITH: Did you train in

21 Afghanistan.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, again.

23 THE WITNESS: One time.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


1 Q. For how long?

2 A. About six months.

3 Q. And that was in 1993 or 1994?

4 A. I'm not sure. It's around '93 or '94.

5 Q. Okay. How did you get to Afghanistan?

6 A. I left Tanzania, I went to India. From Indi a,

7 I went to Pakistan. Then, from Pakistan, I

8 went to Afghanistan.

9 Q. Who paid for you to fly to -- or to travel t o

10 Afghanistan?

11 A. Myself.

12 Q. Okay. And where did this training take pla ce?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, again, bu t

14 you can answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Afghanistan.

16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. Where in Afghanistan?

18 A. I don't know the place.

19 Q. Well, you traveled to the place, didn't you ?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you travel by automobile, by plane? Ho w

22 did you get to this place?


24 THE WITNESS: By car.


1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. Who drove the car?

3 A. The driver.

4 Q. What was the driver's name?

5 A. I don't remember name.

6 Q. Okay. How did you come in contact with the

7 driver?

8 A. I don't know him.

9 Q. How did you come in contact with him to enab le

10 you to get into his car?

11 A. It was a passenger car.

12 Q. Okay. How did you come in contact with thi s

13 driver such that he could take you to this

14 place?

15 A. I wasn't by myself, I was with other people .

16 We would go to take by public means and, th en,

17 we go to where we were going.

18 Q. Who were the other people that you were wit h?

19 A. I don't know the other ones, I only know on e.

20 Q. What's that person's name?

21 A. Al-Fani.

22 Q. And did these people travel with you from, I

23 guess, Zanzibar to Afghanistan?



1 THE WITNESS: One person came with

2 me from Dar es Salaam, but not Zanzibar.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. From Jerusalem. Okay.

5 And you departed from where?

6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Dar es Salaam.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: Dar es Salaam.

8 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry?

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Dar es Salaam.

10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Dar es Salaam .

11 MR. SMITH: Oh, Dar es Salaam.

12 Thank you.

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. You departed from where to Afghanistan?

15 A. Dar es Salaam.

16 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, when you got to this

17 training facility, your testimony is you do n't

18 know where it was located in Afghanistan?


20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: I didn't know.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Okay. And you were there at this place for

24 six months?


1 A. Something like that, I think.

2 Q. Describe this place for me.

3 A. I remember a big place, a big hilly place.

4 Q. Where did you sleep?

5 A. We had -- we would sleep in the bushes

6 sometimes and sometimes in the -- in the

7 tents.

8 (Witness speaking.)

9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, sorry.

10 Like the mosque. They would sleep on a

11 mosque, not bushes, mosques or tents.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. And what were you training to do while you

14 were there?

15 A. The training was how to do -- how to exerci se.

16 We were exercising, we were learning how to

17 shoot, and that's...

18 Q. I'm sorry?

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said

20 "that's." He was learning how to shoot and

21 just doing exercises.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Okay. Who sponsored this training?



1 answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I don't know him.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Well, was there an organization that sponsor ed

5 this training?


7 can answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I know it was a group .

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. What was the name of the group?

11 A. Harakati Ansari.

12 Q. Can you spell that, please.

13 A. H-A-R-A-K-A-T-I. Then, the other one is

14 A-N-S-A-R-I.

15 (Discussion between Interpreter

16 Odanga and witness.)

17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, there's n o

18 "I" at the end. It's just "R" at the end.

19 Q. Is that one person or two people?

20 A. What?

21 Q. Harakati Ansar, is that the name of a perso n

22 or a group?

23 A. Group.

24 Q. And what was the purpose of this group?



2 answer.

3 THE WITNESS: All I knew was that w e

4 were going to fight Kashmir.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: There may be a

6 translation issue here.

7 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: I think what

8 -- what...

9 (Translation discussion by

10 Interpreter Kendagor.)

11 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yeah. What

12 he means is that that group was going to fi ght

13 in Kashmir, but he didn't know that the gro up

14 was going to fight in Kashmir.

15 COURT REPORTER: I'm having troubl e

16 hearing you.

17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I did not hea r

18 where he said he didn't know, so I don't kn ow

19 where you got he didn't know --

20 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Okay. Mayb e

21 explain --

22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: -- but I hear d

23 you asking if he knew.

24 MR. SMITH: Wait a minute. Wait a


1 minute. Wait a minute.

2 Samuel, let me just say that I don' t

3 know Swahili. Okay. So I have my interpret er

4 here and my interpreter is under, I think, a

5 legal obligation as an interpreter to

6 translate exactly what I say and exactly wha t

7 the witness says.

8 And she's just -- whatever comes ou t

9 of my mouth, she needs to translate into

10 Swahili, and whatever comes out of the

11 witness's mouth, she needs to translate it

12 into English. That's her job. She's not t o

13 interpret it, try to figure out what it mea ns,

14 et cetera.

15 As I appreciate your job is to mak e

16 sure that her interpretation, you agree wit h

17 or disagree with, but it can't be to add

18 things that -- anything other than exactly

19 what came out of my mouth and exactly what

20 came out of the witness's mouth.

21 So if you have a concern, it has t o

22 be because you disagree with exactly my

23 interpretation as through the interpreter o r

24 exactly what the witness said as through th e


1 interpretation of the interpreter.

2 Are you with me?


4 MR. SMITH: Okay.

5 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yes, sir.

6 MR. SMITH: And so if my interprete r

7 says "the witness never said that," then you

8 can't -- I'm not saying that you are or you

9 aren't, it's just that it's not helpful to a ny

10 of us unless you say I disagree with the

11 interpretation because exactly what this

12 witness said in Swahili was not interpreted

13 into English.

14 Are you with me?

15 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: The way I

16 understood is that what he was saying is no t

17 exactly what she was --

18 MR. HOFFMAN: What she said.

19 MR. SMITH: Okay. And you're sayi ng

20 that what -- madam interpreter, what you sa id,

21 your interpretation was exactly what the

22 witness said?

23 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I interp --

24 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Maybe --


1 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I interpreted

2 what --

3 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Maybe --

4 INTERPRETER ODANGA: -- Mr. Salim

5 said.

6 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. We can't

7 talk over each other.

8 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I interpreted

9 what Mr. Salim said.

10 MR. SMITH: You interpreted what h e

11 said. Okay.

12 Let's go back to the question and

13 the answer that was given.


15 MR. SMITH: And let's see if we ca n

16 all agree what the witness said.

17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yes.

18 MR. SMITH: Probably easier said

19 than done by the court reporter.

20 COURT REPORTER: It's going to tak e

21 a minute.

22 MR. SMITH: Take a minute.

23




2 "THE WITNESS: All I knew was that

3 we were going to fight Kashmir.")

4 INTERPRETER ODANGA: You want me to

5 ask the question again?

6 MR. SMITH: No.

7 Are you saying that you disagree

8 with that?

9 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: No. I -- I

10 -- I think what he -- what I heard him say, he

11 didn't say that we were going to fight the

12 Kashmir. He said that group was going to

13 fight the --

14 MR. SMITH: Let me see if I can

15 clean this up.

16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. Mr. Salim, you were at a training camp

18 learning, among other things, how to shoot

19 weapons, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And those weapons were AK-47s, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And .9 millimeters, right?

24 A. I don't know.


1 Q. Okay. What were the other types of weapons

2 that you learned to shoot?

3 A. None.

4 Q. Just the AK-47s?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you also trained in hand-to-hand combat ?

7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Hand-to-hand?

8 MR. SMITH: Hand-to-hand combat.

9 A. No.

10 Q. What else were you trained in by way of

11 warfare at this camp in addition to learnin g

12 how to shoot AK-47s?

13 A. None.

14 Q. Let's just jump to -- that's okay.

15 Why did you go to this camp?

16 A. I want to clarify something. I was using

17 illicit drugs. Fahidi -- Fahid told me tha t

18 the only way I can quit using drugs, I can go

19 to Afghanistan -- Pakistan and, then, I can

20 learn other ways and I will also learn some

21 Muslim prayers and that will help me to qui t

22 drug, using drug.

23 Q. So you're saying you went to this camp wher e

24 you were trained on how to shoot an AK-47 s o


1 that you could try to overcome your illicit

2 drug problem?

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection and you can

4 answer.

5 THE WITNESS: I'll say it again. H e

6 told me that we were going to go to Pakistan

7 -- he told me I was going to Pakistan to get

8 some education. He didn't tell me I was goi ng

9 to Afghanistan.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. So why did you go to this camp to be traine d

12 to shoot AK-47s?


14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: When we arrived to

16 Pakistan, they told me that the school is n ot

17 there, it's in Afghanistan.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Okay. What was the school that you were

20 looking for in Pakistan?

21 A. He gave me somebody's name that, when I

22 arrived there, that would be the mosque and

23 that I was supposed to get my education at

24 that mosque.


1 Q. Who gave you this information?

2 A. Fahid.

3 Q. The same Fahid that we've been talking about

4 since we started your deposition?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So when you left Pakistan for Afghanistan, d id

7 you know that you were going to be trained t o

8 shoot an AK-47?

9 A. I did not know.

10 Q. So when you got there, why didn't you leave

11 when you found out?

12 A. When I told him, it was a lot of back and

13 forth fighting. I had no ticket to come ba ck.

14 He told me to wait for the ticket.

15 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit No. 1. I'm direct ing

16 your attention to paragraph 4, item 6, wher e

17 it says, in this government document, quote :

18 "Abdullah had obtained a fake Kenyan

19 identification card which indicated that hi s

20 name was Issa Abdikadir Mohamed."

21 Do you see where it says that?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: There's no question.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. The question is, do you see that?


1 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you see it.

2 THE WITNESS: I told you in the

3 beginning and the other -- the name was Issa .

4 It wasn't my I.D., identification card, it's

5 just something that I picked up.

6 BY MR. SMITH:

7 Q. Mr. Salim, did you ever tell an official fro m

8 the United States government, in connection

9 with an interrogation, that you had obtained a

10 fake Kenyan identification card which

11 indicated your name as Issa Abdikadir Moham ed?

12 Did you ever tell anyone that?


14 answer.

15 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I just want t o

16 clarify something. Did you ever tell Kenya n

17 or anybody?

18 MR. SMITH: Read the question back .



21 "Did you ever tell an official fr om

22 the United States government.")

23 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Thank

24 you.


1 (Translating.)


3 answer.

4 THE WITNESS: I told them that I ha d

5 the identification card that was not mine an d

6 I told them it was in the name "Issa." I

7 don't remember telling them the other names.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Did you tell them that it was a fake

10 identification card?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And is it your testimony that you do n't

13 remember one way or the other if this fake

14 identification card bore the name "Issa

15 Abdikadir Mohamed"?

16 A. I remember Issa, but I'm not sure -- I can' t

17 remember if I said the other names.

18 Q. Okay. And why did you have this fake

19 identification card?


21 answer, again, if you want.

22 THE WITNESS: I said before that

23 this identification card, I just picked it.

24 It was just something that I picked. And, in


1 Kenya, people had trouble that they don't ha ve

2 identification card.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. So are you saying that you had a fake

5 identification card to stay out of trouble

6 with Kenyan officials?


8 answer.

9 THE WITNESS: It wasn't fake

10 identification, it was just -- it was a rea l

11 identification, it's just that it wasn't mi ne.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Well, did you hold yourself out through tha t

14 identification card as being a person named

15 "Issa"? I'll stop right there.


17 THE WITNESS: No.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Well, what was the purpose of having the ca rd,

20 then?


22 THE WITNESS: Only when I -- if I' m

23 stopped by the police, then I can show the

24 identification card.


1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. So it was your intention if you were stopped

3 by the Kenyan police to show them this fake

4 identification, is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when you were taken into custody by the

7 Kenyan intelligence police officers, did you

8 show them the fake identification?

9 A. Ever since I left the boat, I never used -- I

10 never used that identification card. I did

11 have it.

12 Q. Why did you tell the American officials who

13 were interrogating you about this fake

14 identification?

15 A. They asked me why I was also called Issa.

16 Q. Okay. Now, turn, if you would, to paragrap h

17 4D. I'm looking at the second sentence. A nd

18 my question is, did you ever tell American

19 officials during interrogation that you "an d

20 other compatriots proceeded to Karachi,

21 Pakistan, and were received by Al-Qaeda lea der

22 Mufti Iqbal"?

23 Let's stop right there. Did you

24 ever tell government officials that?


1 A. I've never said that.

2 Q. Do you know who Mufti Iqbal is?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who is he?

5 A. That is -- he was at the mosque where I

6 arrived to.

7 Q. In Pakistan?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Had you ever met him before you met him at t he

10 mosque in Pakistan?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell American officials ,

13 as it appears in Exhibit No. 1, that Iqbal

14 took you and the others to Harakati Ansar

15 terrorist training camp in Afghanistan?


17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: No.

19 BY MR. SMITH:

20 Q. Did Iqbal take you to Harakati Ansar camp?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who took you?

23 A. We went with other people.

24 Q. Yeah. Who -- who were the people?


1 A. I already told you that I only knew one.

2 Q. Okay. Well, sometimes when you look at a

3 document, it helps refresh your recollection .

4 MR. HOFFMAN: There's no question.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Do you know who Fazul Rahman is?

7 A. I remember him.

8 Q. Who is Fazul Rahman?

9 A. It was -- he was like the owner of Harakati

10 Ansar.

11 Q. And do you know a person named Abu Walid?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever tell American officials in

14 connection with an interrogation, or

15 questioning, rather, that the Harkati Ansar

16 camp was run by Pakistani national Fazul

17 Rahman?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Reading on in the document marked as

20 Exhibit 1, it states, quote: "In Afghanist an,

21 Abdullah received six months of training on

22 assault rifles, explosives and fighting

23 techniques."

24 Did you ever tell American officia ls


1 that?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Did you tell them that you -- or tell Americ an

4 officials that you received six months of

5 training on assault rifles?

6 A. I told them it was six month training, but I

7 only use the -- there for one time.

8 Q. One time. Did you ever tell American

9 officials that while you were at this camp,

10 you were trained for using explosives?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you ever receive training to use

13 explosives?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you -- did you ever tell American

16 officials that you received training at thi s

17 camp for fighting techniques?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you ever tell American officials that

20 while you were at this camp, there were

21 approximately 600 other trainees at the cam p?

22 A. I remember something like that.

23 Q. Tell me what you remember.

24 A. There were a lot of people at the camp.


1 Q. What did you tell the government officials

2 when you were interviewed about this?


4 answer.

5 THE WITNESS: They asked me "there

6 was many people there?" And I said "yes."

7 BY MR. SMITH:

8 Q. Did they ask how many people?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was his answer?

11 A. I remember I said "a lot of people," but I' ve

12 forgotten what I told -- the number that I

13 told them.

14 Q. Turn, if you would, to paragraph H in

15 Exhibit 1. Were you shown a photograph dur ing

16 this interview or interrogation of an Afgha ni

17 national who was taking photographs of the

18 Paradise Hotel three months prior to the 28

19 November 2002 bombing?

20 A. No.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Whenever you reach a

22 stopping point soon, we could take a break.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. Turn, if you would, to the next page, sir.


1 Paragraph No. 5 says, quote: "Outcome:

2 Bagram/Gitmo, detain as a low level enemy

3 combatant."

4 Were you ever told you were being

5 detained as a low level enemy combatant?

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Asked and

7 answered.

8 THE WITNESS: Never.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. And you would remember that if you were tol d?

11 A. I would have remembered that.

12 Q. Your testimony is that while you were at th is

13 camp, you were training with some 600 other

14 people, is that right?


16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I didn't go there to

18 train. I found those people there. It's n ot

19 that I came with them there.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Did you train with 600 other people while y ou

22 were at this camp?

23 A. No. They come and go. It's not that we ar e

24 there all the time, all of us.


1 Q. How many people were there while you were

2 there?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Was it more than a hundred?

5 A. I can't know.

6 Q. Okay. And your testimony is that you either

7 slept in a mosque or you slept outside?


9 THE WITNESS: In a mosque or tent.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. In a tent, okay.

12 And who fed you?

13 A. We were being fed by the people there.

14 Q. Who paid for the food?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Did you receive any form of compensation fo r

17 this training?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So how were you able to pay your bills whil e

20 you were off at this camp for six months?


22 answer.

23 THE WITNESS: There are no bills.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


1 Q. So you had no expenses in your life at this

2 time?


4 answer.

5 THE WITNESS: No.

6 BY MR. SMITH:

7 Q. Who paid for your clothing?


9 THE WITNESS: The same clothes that

10 I came with.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. I see.

13 And did you have any understanding

14 of who was paying for the food that was goi ng

15 to all the trainees?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. And why did the training end after six mont hs?


19 answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I -- I did not train

21 for six months, but I stayed there for six

22 months.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. How long did you train?


1 A. One time.

2 Q. What does that mean, for one day?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then did you refuse to train thereafter?

5 A. I refused.

6 Q. And how did you get out of the camp?

7 A. There's a car that came and took me, then I

8 went to -- I got the plane and then I went t o

9 Tanzania.

10 Q. Who paid for the car?

11 A. Fahid.

12 Q. Who paid for the plane?

13 A. Fahid.

14 Q. Why did you refuse to train after one day?

15 A. I didn't want to stay there. Fahid kept on

16 telling me to keep on staying there, but af ter

17 training that one day, I didn't want to do it.

18 Q. And how were you in communication with Fahi d?

19 A. Where?

20 Q. While you were at the camp.

21 A. Sometimes I would see him sometimes at the

22 mosque, sometimes we were not seeing each

23 other.

24 Q. So he was at the camp, too?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you arrive together at the camp?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was he there before you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How much before you did he arrive?


8 answer.


10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. And did he train during the period of time

12 that you were at the camp?


14 THE WITNESS: I never saw him.

15 BY MR. SMITH:

16 Q. You have no understanding if he was getting

17 trained to shoot weapons and learn how to d eal

18 with explosives while you were at the camp?


20 answer.


22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Did you ever ask him at any time thereafter

24 about his training?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Never discussed it with him?

3 A. Never.

4 Q. And when you left the camp, you returned to

5 Tanzania?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. To do what?

8 A. That's my home.

9 Q. Okay. What did you do there?

10 A. I did not have any job. I was just sitting at

11 my friend's store.

12 Q. Friend's?

13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: The friend ha d

14 a store so he would just sit at the store.

15 Q. Okay. And how long did you sit at the stor e

16 in Tanzania before you got a job?

17 A. Not too long.

18 Q. And did you ever have any other training ot her

19 than what you've told me about so far?


21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: Never.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. Mr. Salim, what is your understanding of


1 Al-Qaeda?

2 A. I don't -- I don't understand anything.

3 Q. Your testimony is that you have no

4 understanding of Al-Qaeda, is that correct?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: Like what?

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Like your understanding.


11 answer.

12 THE WITNESS: I know they are bad

13 people. They bomb. That's what I understa nd.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Do you understand that it's a group that is

16 committed to trying to do injury to the Uni ted

17 States?

18 A. That one, I don't understand.

19 Q. You don't. Do you know anyone that's

20 affiliated with Al-Qaeda?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Did you ever?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever admit to US officials that you


1 knew two Al-Qaeda operatives in Mogadishu?


3 answer.

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Mr. Salim, have you reviewed any of the

7 documents that have been turned over by the

8 United States government in connection with

9 this case?

10 A. I have not.

11 Q. Are you aware that there are documents that

12 have been produced in this case that indica te

13 that you had direct or indirect links to

14 members of Al-Qaeda?

15 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll object to that

16 question to the extent that it asks him to

17 respond based on attorney/client

18 communications. So you can only answer tha t

19 question if you have information other than

20 what you got from your lawyers.


22 MR. SMITH: Okay. So your lawyer

23 has requested that we take a break, so why

24 don't we take a break. It's about 11 minut es


1 till three. What time would you like to

2 resume?

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Just 10 minutes or 15

4 minutes.

5 MR. SMITH: Okay.


7 We're off record.

8 (Brief pause.)



11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Mr. Salim, are you ready to go forward?

13 A. Fine.

14 (The following portion has been deemed

15 confidential and bound under separate cover)

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24


Page 151

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4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23 (Non-confidential testimony resumes.)

24 Q. I want to direct your attention, sir, back to


Page 152

1 the period of time that you were taken to wh at

2 you refer to as darkness.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. You were held there, at this facility that y ou

5 call darkness, for approximately two months?

6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I'm sorry. I

7 translated years instead of months. I'm

8 sorry.

9 (Translating.)

10 A. Yeah. Yes. I'm not very sure, but it was

11 around two months.

12 Q. Okay. Now, during that period of time, who

13 controlled this facility that you refer to as

14 darkness?


16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: Americans.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Okay. And what's the basis for you to make

20 that statement?

21 A. They told me.

22 Q. Okay. So the people who you communicated w ith

23 said that they were Americans?

24 A. Yes.


Page 153

1 Q. And did they tell you whether or not they we re

2 -- these Americans were affiliated with the


4 A. No, they didn't tell me.

5 Q. Did you have any understanding of whether or

6 not these Americans who ran this facility th at

7 you call darkness were affiliated with the


9 A. Yes.

10 MR. SMITH: Could you read back th e

11 question, madam court reporter.


13 read back by the court reporter.)

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. What was your understanding?

16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He's just

17 asking that I repeat the whole question.

18 MR. SMITH: Sure.

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Let me

20 read.

21 (Translating.)

22 THE WITNESS: I knew them as CIAs.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. And what was the basis for your belief that


Page 154

1 they were CIA agents?

2 A. They told me.

3 Q. Did any of them tell you their names?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, during the period of time that you were

6 held at this facility called darkness, were

7 you interrogated by the CIA agents?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And do you have any memory of those

10 interrogations?

11 A. Questions like where are you from, where we re

12 you born, things like that.

13 Q. Anything else that you remember?


15 Q. How many times do you think you were

16 interrogated during the period of time that

17 you were held at the facility that you call

18 darkness?

19 A. I cannot recall how many times, but it was

20 almost for two months.

21 Q. Almost for two months?

22 A. All the days that I was in there, they

23 interrogated me.

24 Q. So your memory is every day or almost every


Page 155

1 day, you were interrogated?

2 A. It was almost every day.

3 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me what woul d

4 happen during these interrogations?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: How?

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Well, you were taken into a room, I take it,

10 right?


12 answer.

13 THE WITNESS: Which room?

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. When you were in darkness, were you kept in a

16 cell?

17 A. Like a room.

18 Q. Okay. Were other people kept in the room,

19 too, or were you kept there alone?

20 A. Myself.

21 Q. Okay. And when these CIA people would come to

22 interrogate you, did they interrogate you i n

23 that room or in another room?



Page 156

1 answer.

2 THE WITNESS: Another room.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Okay. So they would escort you into another

5 room?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know what the room looked like?

8 A. I can remember one, it was just a big place

9 like this.

10 Q. Okay. And were there lights, no lights?


12 answer.

13 THE WITNESS: Not too much light.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Okay. And how many people would be in ther e

16 in addition to yourself?

17 A. I don't understand.

18 Q. Well, you would go into this room to be

19 interrogated, how many people in addition t o

20 yourself were in the room?


22 answer.

23 THE WITNESS: There were a lot of

24 people.


Page 157

1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. A lot of people.

3 A. Sometimes just one person.

4 Q. Okay. So it would depend upon which day it

5 was?

6 A. Yeah, it depends.

7 Q. Okay. So can you describe for me, when you

8 were taken into the room, what occurred duri ng

9 the interrogation?


11 answer.

12 THE WITNESS: So many things

13 happened, so I don't know where to start.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Okay. So tell me what your best recollecti on

16 is. And if different things happened on

17 different days, then just describe for me w hat

18 you remember on any given day.


20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: I remember being put

22 in a box. I remember being hanged.

23 (Gesturing.)

24 I remember being naked and a big


Page 158

1 light -- they put a light on my face.

2 I remember being put on the ground

3 in a plastic bag and water is being poured o n

4 me. And there was a plastic jug, plastic

5 water jug being put -- they were knocking my

6 rectal area with it.

7 I remember being put on a table and ,

8 then, I was tied around while being taken

9 around.

10 I remember there were two boxes,

11 they were -- there's one that was being put on

12 the ground and there was one that was also

13 standing position.

14 I remember being tied on the wall,

15 handcuffed to the wall. I couldn't go up o r

16 come down. I also remember being handcuffe d

17 and naked in the room with not any clothes on.

18 I remember being put on something

19 like a hospital bed, my -- my hands tied to

20 both sides of bed. They put something like an

21 injection on me and I lost my conscious.

22 I remember, also, them putting a

23 cloth around -- tying a cloth around my nec k

24 and, then, they were punching me on the wal l,


Page 159

1 punching.

2 At the present time, I can't recall

3 anything; if I do, I will let you know.

4 BY MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Okay. Now, what you just described, did the se

6 occur in the interrogation room or in the ce ll

7 that you were being detained or both?


9 answer.

10 THE WITNESS: Being tied on the wa ll

11 was at the dark room, the room where I was

12 staying. The other ones, it was different

13 places, but the same place, another room.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Where the interrogations took place?

16 A. They were doing it in different rooms. At the

17 interrogation place was where they were

18 putting lights on my face.

19 Q. Okay. And where did these other things hap pen

20 to you, sir?

21 A. Different rooms.

22 Q. How many times were you injected?

23 A. I can't remember whether it was once or twi ce.

24 Q. And when you recovered, when you regained y our


Page 160

1 consciousness, did you suffer any effects fr om

2 the injection?


4 Q. And did you ever learn what you were injecte d

5 with?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How many times were you put on plastic and

8 water was poured on you?

9 A. Can't remember.


11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. But you just don't know beyond that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And did you suffer any injuries from

15 being put on the ground in this plastic and

16 this water poured on you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What injuries did you suffer?

19 A. My chest was -- my chest, my heart was beat ing

20 so fast, my jaws were shaking, and that was

21 causing a lot of pain.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. My -- I had -- I already had a fracture on my

24 finger, but because of the torture that the y


Page 161

1 were doing, it made it more painful.

2 Q. Did you suffer any long-term injuries as a

3 result of being put in this plastic with wat er

4 poured on you?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Did you suffer any injuries as a result of t he

7 injections?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Sir, you said that you were put on a table a nd

10 tied to a table and spun around. Do you

11 remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How many times did that happen?

14 A. Just one time.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. But it was just for a little time.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. For a short time.

19 Q. And did you suffer any injuries as a result of

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What injuries did you suffer?

23 A. Dizziness.

24 Q. Okay. And did you suffer any long-term


Page 162

1 injuries as a result of that dizziness?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What are the long-term injuries?

4 A. I still have dizziness.

5 Q. And what is the basis for you to believe tha t

6 your dizziness, presently, is as a result of

7 being spun on that table?

8 A. Because they had tortured me a lot, I was ve ry

9 weak and I had no strength. I could not -- I

10 didn't have any strength. I did not eat

11 anything. And ever since that happened, I' ve

12 been experiencing the dizziness.

13 Q. Tell me about the dizziness.

14 A. Like what?

15 Q. Were you dizzy today?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When is the last time you experienced a diz zy

18 event?


20 Q. Now, you said that you were put in a box. Do

21 you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And as I appreciate what you said, sir, one

24 box was vertical and one box was horizontal ,


Page 163

1 is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many times were you put in a box and lai d

4 in the box horizontally?

5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Horizontal is

6 this? (Gesturing.)

7 MR. SMITH: Horizontal would be tha t

8 way, yeah.




12 Q. How many times were you put in a box where you

13 stood up vertically?


15 Q. How long did you stay in the box where you

16 were put in vertically?

17 A. I'm just thinking that it was about 30

18 minutes.

19 Q. And how long did you stay in the box when y ou

20 were in a horizontal position?

21 A. It was a little more, but I can't remember.

22 Q. Less than an hour?

23 A. At times, they would put me there, then the y'd

24 go and beat me, and then they'd come and pu t


Page 164

1 me there and sometimes they just leave me

2 there.

3 Q. So you're saying that the CIA agents beat yo u,

4 as well?

5 A. When they were interrogating me, I don't kno w

6 if they are the one that were interrogating me

7 or not.

8 Q. Who beat you?

9 A. Somebody.

10 Q. Was it an American?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Was it a CIA agent?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. How many times were you beaten?

15 A. Ever since I was there, it was totally.

16 Q. But I'm trying to understand in greater

17 detail. We're on your -- the period that y ou

18 were in this what you call darkness for two

19 months. Are you with me?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And is it your testimony that you were beat en

22 on a daily basis?

23 A. Not every day.

24 Q. Okay. But, periodically, you were beaten b y


Page 165

1 whoever these people were?


3 answer.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Okay. Can you describe for me what you

7 endured in these beatings?

8 A. I already told you.

9 Q. I don't think you did.

10 A. I told you that they tied a cloth on my nec k

11 and they were punching me.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. They were putting me down and -- they were

14 putting me down and kicking me.

15 Q. Okay. And you don't remember how many time s

16 this happened while you were in darkness?


18 answer.


20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. And where did they punch you?


23 (Witness gesturing.)

24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 166

1 Q. In the chest?

2 A. (Gesturing.)

3 MR. HOFFMAN: He's pointing at the

4 stomach.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Where did they kick you, sir?

7 A. Tummy.

8 Q. Okay. Same place that they punched you?

9 A. The kicking was more on the lower abdomen.

10 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you also said that

11 during this period you were hanged.


13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was that in your cell?

15 A. No.

16 Q. It was in the interrogation room?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Where were you hanged?

19 A. Another room.

20 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me how you

21 were hanged?

22 A. (Gesturing.) There was like a pipe up ther e,

23 then I was handcuffed, and then it was tied

24 there and I was standing.


Page 167

1 Q. Okay. And how long -- strike that.

2 How many times were you hanged like

3 that by the pipe?


5 Q. Okay. Was it more than once?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And what happened to you while you we re

8 hanging by the pipe?

9 A. A lot of pain in my arms, a lot of pains in my

10 back and around my waist.

11 Q. And did anyone beat you while you were hang ing

12 from that pipe?


14 Q. Okay. And did you suffer any permanent dam age

15 as a result of being hanged by that pipe,

16 permanent injury?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you describe for me what the injuries a re?

19 A. My back. My waist.

20 Q. Now, you said that you were also tied to a

21 wall. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was this a wall in your cell where you were

24 kept or some other place?


Page 168

1 A. The cell where I was kept.

2 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me how you

3 were shackled or tied to the wall?

4 A. So this is the wall. (Gesturing.)

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. There's something tied to it, like a ring.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. My hand is handcuffed.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. They come and tie it to that ring.

11 (Gesturing.) It's something that would not

12 let me sit down or cannot let me stand.

13 Q. How many times, while you were in this

14 facility that you call darkness, were you t ied

15 to the wall like that?

16 A. I can't recall how many times.

17 Q. Did you suffer any injuries as a result of it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me what those injuries are?

20 A. My waist. My -- the pain in my fingers

21 intensified.



24 Q. Do you presently have any injuries to your


Page 169

1 waist as a result of being tied to the wall,

2 as you described?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what are those injuries?

5 A. It's painful.

6 Q. Can you describe for me the pain?

7 A. I can't describe how painful it was.

8 Q. Do you presently experience the pain?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you describe for me the pain that you f eel

11 presently?

12 A. Maybe I need to tie you here so that -- for

13 one hour so you can feel the pain, if you w ant

14 to know the pain.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Can we take a break?

16 MR. SMITH: We can take a break.



19 (Brief pause.)



22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Mr. Salim, are you able to go forward?

24 A. I'm fine.


Page 170

1 Q. Okay. And as I said to you off the record,

2 sir, I don't mean to be insensitive and I ho pe

3 you understand I have a job to do.

4 And if you find yourself moving to a

5 point where you want to take a break, just

6 wave your hands or tell me, we'll go off the

7 record and we'll figure out how to avoid the se

8 moments for you, if we can. All right?

9 A. Fine.

10 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Salim, before we went off t he

11 record, I was trying to understand if you h ave

12 any present injuries as a result of being

13 shackled to the wall, as you describe.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Can you describe for me what the

16 present injuries are?

17 A. I feel like we should not go too much into

18 that because it's going to remind me of oth er

19 things.

20 Q. Okay. So why don't we see if there's a tim e

21 later today or tomorrow that we can pick th at

22 up.

23 A. That is good.

24 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, the other matter that you


Page 171

1 described during the period of time that you

2 were at darkness was that you were brought

3 into an interrogation facility naked and a

4 light was shined in your face while you were

5 asked questions.

6 Do you remember you told me about

7 that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many times did that happen?

10 A. The one with the light was once.

11 Q. And did you sustain any injuries as a resul t

12 of that?

13 A. I have eye problem.

14 Q. Okay. And did anyone ever tell you that th e

15 eye problem that you have is related to tha t

16 event that occurred to you that you describ ed

17 in darkness?

18 A. Nobody.

19 Q. Okay. Did you ever seek treatment from a

20 doctor for this eye problem?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did the doctor tell you what exactly yo ur

23 problem is with your eyes?

24 A. I did not know English that very well, but I


Page 172

1 remember they gave me the eyeglasses in

2 Bagram.

3 Q. And do you have any memory of a doctor telli ng

4 you what exactly your problem was with your

5 eye?

6 Is it one eye or both eyes, by the

7 way?

8 A. Both.

9 Q. And do you remember what the doctor telling

10 you the problem was with both eyes?


12 Q. Okay. Do you presently wear eyeglasses?

13 A. I don't.

14 Q. Why did you stop wearing them?

15 A. I don't want to.

16 Q. Why not?

17 A. I don't want to.

18 Q. Is it because you don't like them on your

19 face? What's the reason why you don't want to

20 wear them?

21 A. I just think it will make the problem, it w ill

22 worsen the problem.

23 Q. Did anyone tell you that wearing eyeglasses

24 would worsen the problem with your eyes?


Page 173

1 A. Nobody.

2 Q. Okay. Now, have you told me about all of th e

3 things that happened to you while you were i n

4 custody at this place that you call darkness

5 for approximately two months?


7 answer.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. Now, do you know a man named Dr. James

11 Mitchell?


13 Q. Have you ever heard that name before?


15 Q. Do you know a man named Dr. Bruce Jessen?


17 Q. Had you ever heard that name before today?


19 Q. Did anyone ever tell you, in words or

20 substance, that Dr. Mitchell or Dr. Jessen had

21 anything to do or were in any way responsib le

22 for the conditions and the circumstances th at

23 you confronted while you were being held in

24 custody in the facility that you identified as


Page 174

1 darkness?

2 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm going to instruct

3 him not to answer on the grounds that it

4 invades the attorney/client privilege.

5 (Translating.)

6 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand

7 what Mister --

8 MR. HOFFMAN: You don't -- you don' t

9 have to answer.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. Turn, if you would, to exhibit marked as

12 Exhibit 8. I'm going to ask you if you wou ld

13 turn to paragraph 74 of the complaint that was

14 filed in this action.

15 A. Fine.

16 Q. Do you have 74 before you? I think you

17 want...

18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh.

19 Q. Mr. Salim, in paragraph 74 of the complaint

20 that you brought in this matter, the first

21 sentence states as follows, quote: "During

22 Mr. Salim's custody by the CIA, he was

23 experimented upon and subjected to a regime n

24 of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degradin g


Page 175

1 treatment in accordance with the phased

2 torture program that defendant's Mitchell an d

3 Jessen designed, supervised and implemented. "

4 Can you tell me what the factual

5 basis is for that allegation?

6 MR. HOFFMAN: I will object to that

7 and instruct him not to answer on the ground s

8 that he can only answer that by revealing

9 attorney/client communications.

10 MR. SMITH: Well, then, he should

11 reveal it because this goes to the heart of

12 your claim and this is factual information

13 that we're entitled to.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: Not from him, on thi s.

15 You want to ask him facts, you can ask him

16 facts.

17 MR. SMITH: I'm asking him what th e

18 factual basis is for him to sue my clients

19 claiming that they designed, supervised and

20 implemented a phased torture program.

21 What facts does he have?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I instruct him not t o

23 answer. Go on.

24 MR. SMITH: I'm telling you right


Page 176

1 now, I'm going to move for sanctions unless

2 you withdraw that instruction, because the l aw

3 is clear, to the extent that there are factu al

4 allegations, even if they come from a lawyer ,

5 I'm allowed to know them.

6 And I traveled I don't know how man y

7 thousand miles to get this witness because

8 this was the only place we could get to take

9 his deposition. So I'm asking you,

10 Mr. Hoffman, to reconsider that.

11 Let's take a break for two minutes .

12 If you want me to get you authority to show

13 you I have a right to know it, I will.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Get me

15 authority. That'll be good.

16 MR. SMITH: And you get me authori ty

17 to tell me that you have a basis to instruc t

18 him not to answer a factual basis for an

19 allegation in a complaint.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

21 MR. SMITH: Okay. Let's go off th e

22 record for a second.




Page 177

1 (Brief pause.)



4 MR. SMITH: So, Mr. Hoffman and I

5 have agreed to discuss this further, but we

6 want to use our time wisely here with the

7 witness and we're going to stop in 45 minute s.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Mr. Salim, other than information that you m ay

10 have learned from your lawyers, which I'm n ot

11 asking you to tell me about right now, do y ou

12 have any factual information that either

13 Dr. Mitchell or Dr. Jessen were in any way

14 involved in the circumstances that you were

15 confronted with while you were in custody i n

16 the facility that you call darkness?

17 A. My lawyer will answer that.

18 Q. Do you know what an enhanced interrogation

19 technique is?

20 A. I don't understand the question.

21 Q. Have you ever heard of something called an

22 "enhanced interrogation technique"?

23 A. What is the meaning?

24 Q. Okay. My question, sir, is prior to today,


Page 178

1 have you ever heard of something or things

2 called "enhanced interrogation techniques"?

3 A. I've never.

4 Q. Are you familiar with a torture program that

5 was allegedly devised by Drs. Mitchell and

6 Jessen?


8 answer, though.

9 THE WITNESS: My lawyer will answer

10 that.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Do you have any information about such thin g?


14 Q. Okay. I understand that answer, sir, but m y

15 question is a different one. Do you have a ny

16 factual information about an alleged tortur e

17 program that was designed by Drs. Mitchell and

18 Jessen?


20 Q. Do you not want to answer my question?

21 A. I already answered you.

22 Q. Do you have information? Yes or no.


24 THE WITNESS: My lawyer will answe r


Page 179

1 that.

2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. I see. Okay.

4 You were in this facility that you

5 refer to as darkness for approximately two

6 months, and then transferred to, I think you

7 called it the "salt pit."

8 Does that sound right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you were kept at the salt pit, I think ,

11 for a year and several months. Is that rig ht,

12 sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And during the period of time that you were at

15 the salt pit, you were held in custody?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who held you in custody?

18 A. Americans.

19 Q. And do you know, were they Americans from t he

20 CIA?

21 A. Some of them were telling me they were from

22 CIA, some of them were saying they're from

23 FBI.

24 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of time that you


Page 180

1 were -- oops.

2 MR. SMITH: You need two minutes?

3 Let's go off the record.



6 (Brief pause.)



9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. Mr. Salim, are you able to go forward?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, during the period of time

13 that you were in custody at salt pit, or wh at

14 you refer to as salt pit, were you

15 interrogated?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who interrogated you?

18 A. Americans.

19 Q. And do you know who these Americans -- well ,

20 let's strike that.

21 Do you know if these Americans wer e

22 FBI agents, CIA agents, military personnel?


24 answer.


Page 181

1 THE WITNESS: Some of them were

2 telling me they were FBI, some of them were

3 telling me they were CIA.

4 BY MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Okay. And you were there for some 14 months

6 or so, is that right?

7 A. I only know it was a year and some months.

8 Q. Okay. I thought you approximated it at a ye ar

9 and two months, is that correct, or am I

10 wrong?

11 A. I didn't say the correct one, but I just sa id

12 it was one year and some months.

13 Q. Okay. All right. Now, during that period

14 that you were at salt pit, were you kept in a

15 -- in some sort of a cell?

16 A. It was a room.

17 Q. It was a room?

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. Okay. Were any other detainees kept with y ou

20 in the room?

21 A. In one room?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. One time.

24 Q. So one night, he shared the room?


Page 182

1 A. I remember like three or four days.

2 Q. Okay. And other than that, you were kept

3 alone in this room?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you describe the room for the record?

6 A. I can recall a little.

7 Q. I'm sorry?

8 A. I can recall a little bit.

9 Q. Tell me what you recall.

10 A. It was a room like from this wall up to the

11 table there, up to there. (Gesturing.)

12 Q. Okay. So can we approximate to say 10 feet by

13 8 feet, does that sound right?

14 A. I don't know anything to do with feet.

15 Q. Okay. What about 4 centimeters by 2-1/2

16 centimeters?

17 I'm sorry. I said centimeters. I

18 meant meters. Four meters by 2-1/2 meters.

19 Sorry about that.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: That's very small.

21 MR. SMITH: See if you guys were a ll

22 paying attention.

23 THE WITNESS: I don't know about

24 meters. I can just estimate what I've show n


Page 183

1 you.

2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. Okay. All right. Now, did the room have

4 lights?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did the room have a window?

7 A. But it was high.

8 Q. The window was high. Okay.

9 And was there a door or bars or

10 both?

11 A. There was one door, it was like a steel doo r,

12 but it was one.

13 Q. Okay. And do you know in what kind of

14 structure this room was located?

15 A. It was like there are people upstairs, coul d

16 hear people talking upstairs.

17 Q. During the period that you were in the salt

18 pit, did you ever go outside?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, can you describe for me -- let's pick the

21 first month that you were there. Can you

22 describe for me the interrogations that too k

23 place the first month that you were there?

24 A. I can't remember exactly what happened in t he


Page 184

1 first month, I just know it was just

2 interrogation, the same things.

3 Q. Well, that's what I want to understand. So

4 during the period that you were there a year

5 and several months or some months, were the

6 interrogations always the same or did they

7 differ?


9 answer.

10 THE WITNESS: Same. Same.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. So describe for me the conditions that you

13 were confronted with and exposed to while y ou

14 were interrogated while at salt pit.

15 A. Like what?

16 Q. Well, when you were at darkness, you descri bed

17 a whole series of conditions, including bei ng

18 chained to the wall, being hung from a pipe

19 and the like.

20 Do you recall that you said those

21 things?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What happened to you when you were at salt

24 pit?


Page 185

1 A. At salt pit, I was not being handcuffed.

2 Q. I'm sorry. Not being handcuffed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Not being -- I was not, also, being tied on my

6 legs, but when they were going to interrogat e

7 me, they would handcuff me.

8 Q. Okay. Now, were you hanged from a pipe like

9 you were, at least as you've testified --

10 strike that. Let me start all over again.

11 When you were at salt pit for that

12 year and several months, were you hanged fr om

13 a pipe like you were in darkness?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you beaten by either the CIA or FBI

16 agents?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you tied to the wall as you described for

19 me when you were at darkness? Strike that.

20 Let me start all over again.

21 Were you tied to a wall like you

22 were at darkness when you were at salt pit?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you interrogated -- strike that.


Page 186

1 Were you stripped naked and

2 interrogated with lights shining in your fac e

3 as you had described to me you experienced a t

4 darkness?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Is it fair to say that none of the things th at

7 you experienced at darkness, other than your

8 hands being shackled, you experienced at sal t

9 pit?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So tell me, when you were interrogated, oth er

12 than shackling your hands during the

13 interrogation, what else happened to you?

14 A. Nothing else.

15 Q. Okay. Did you sustain any injuries while y ou

16 were in custody at salt pit?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What injuries?

19 A. I had pain in my hands, my back, hand, wais t.

20 Q. Is the witness finished?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Did anyone, while you were at salt p it,

23 do anything to you that caused you to

24 experience pain in your hands?


Page 187

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did anyone do anything to you while you were

3 detained at salt pit to cause the pain in yo ur

4 back?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did anyone do anything to you while you were

7 detained at salt pit to cause the pain in yo ur

8 waist?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What was the frequency in which you were

11 interrogated while you were detained at sal t

12 pit?

13 A. I can't recall.

14 Q. Was it on a frequent basis or an infrequent

15 basis?


17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: There's a time they

19 would do it more often and there's a time i t

20 would last for some times before they do it .

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. And did you ever have any understanding abo ut

23 why you were interrogated with greater

24 frequency?


Page 188

1 A. No.

2 Q. No. And when they would interrogate you, wh at

3 kinds of questions were they asking you?

4 A. Just the same questions, where are you from,

5 where have you been, where are you going,

6 things like that.

7 Q. Are you saying, sir, that the subject matter s

8 of the interrogation never changed during th e

9 entire period you were held at salt pit?

10 A. Never changed.

11 Q. And why were you taken from salt pit, do yo u

12 know?

13 A. Come up again.

14 Q. I'm sorry?

15 A. He said "come up again." Say it again.

16 Q. Oh, you want me to repeat?

17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: That's what h e

18 said, but I have to interpret it as what he

19 said.

20 MR. SMITH: Oh. Why don't I have

21 the court reporter read the question back.

22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I know the

23 question. Can I just ask it?

24 MR. SMITH: Sure.


Page 189


2 (Translating.)

3 A. Bagram.

4 Q. Do you know why you were moved from salt pit

5 to Bagram?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you have any factual information that

8 Drs. Jessen or Mitchell had anything to do

9 with the interrogations that occurred while

10 you were at salt pit?

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Just while we deal

12 with the other issues, I'd ask him to answe r

13 based on any information that he personally

14 has as opposed to what his lawyers have tol d

15 him.

16 So do you have personal knowledge?


18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. What's the answer to my question?

20 A. Repeat it.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: What was the answer?

22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said repea t

23 the question.



Page 190


2 "Do you have any factual informati on

3 that Drs. Jessen or Mitchell had

4 anything to do with the

5 interrogations that occurred while

6 you were at salt pit?")

7 THE WITNESS: My lawyer will answer

8 that question.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. And what does that mean, your lawyer relies

11 (sic) on that question?

12 A. Because I don't know when it comes to -- I

13 don't -- I don't know -- I don't know more

14 about the law. They do know.

15 Q. And, Mr. Salim, do you understand I'm not

16 asking you about the law. I'm just asking you

17 about the factual information. Do you

18 understand that?

19 A. And that's why I answered you that my lawye r

20 will answer the question.

21 Q. Mr. Salim, let's go back to Exhibit No. 8 f or

22 a second. Am I to understand, sir, that yo u

23 have never looked at this document before

24 today?


Page 191


2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Have you ever looked at any parts of this

5 document?


7 Q. Have you ever -- I'm going to direct your

8 attention to starting on page 32, paragraph 71

9 through 116. Have you ever looked at any

10 document that contained this information?

11 A. I've never.

12 Q. Did you ever tell your lawyers that the

13 information in paragraph 71 through 116 was

14 true?

15 A. I don't know what it's saying.

16 Q. All right. Mr. Salim, what do you say we q uit

17 for today and we'll start tomorrow morning.

18 A. What you think is okay.

19 MR. SMITH: Okay. Go get some res t.

20 We'll start tomorrow morning. Let's go off

21 the record.


23 We're off the record in the deposition.

24 (Time: 4:51 p.m.)


Page 192

1 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS.)

2 SUFFOLK, SS: )

3

4 I, JANE M. BORROWMAN, Registered

5 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in a nd

6 for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, do

7 hereby certify that on March 14, 2017,

8 Suleiman Abdullah Salim, the witness whose

9 deposition is hereinbefore set forth, was du ly

10 sworn by me and that such deposition is a t rue

11 record of the testimony given by the witnes s.

12 I further certify that I am neithe r

13 related to or employed by any of the partie s

14 in or counsel to this action, nor am I

15 financially interested in the action.

16 In witness whereof, I have hereunt o

17 set my hand and seal this 28th day of March

18 2017.

19

20 Notary Public

21 RPR No. 001420

22

23 My commission expires:

24 7 December 2023


Page 193

1 *** ERRATA SHEET *** TRANSPERFECT DEPOSITION SERVICES

2 216 E. 45th Street, Suite #903 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10017

3 (212) 400-8845

4 CASE: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM et al. v. MITCH ELL DATE: MARCH 14, 2017

5 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM REF: 1 8303

6 PAGE LINE FROM TO

7 ____|______|______________________|_________ _____

8 ____|______|______________________|_________ _____

9 ____|______|______________________|_________ _____

10 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

11 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

12 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

13 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

14 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

15 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

16 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

17 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

18 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

19 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

20 ___________________________

21 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM Subscribed and sworn to before me

22 this ____ day of ____________, 20__.

23 _______________________________

24 Notary Public



Page 194

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Al-Qaeda's102:2102:13,18,24103:16 104:6

America 9:2431:11 48:15,2249:6,11,14 50:850:14,23 51:17,2063:2 78:16

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Page 194

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,

MOHAMED AHMED BEN SOUD, OBAID

ULLAH (as Personal

Representative of GUL RAHMAN),

Plaintiffs, Civil Action No .

vs. 2:15-CV-286-JLQ

JAMES ELMER MITCHELL and

JOHN "BRUCE" JESSEN,

Defendants.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM

VOLUME II

March 15, 2017

Reported by:Jane M. Borrowman, RPR, CSR Job no: 18304


Page 195

1

2 DEPOSITION OF: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM

3 LOCATION: Hogan Lovells 22 Fredman Drive

4 Sandton, Johananesburg, South Afric a

5 DATE: March 15, 2017

6 TIME: 8:59 a.m.

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Page 196

1 APPEARANCES:

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:

3 Paul L. Hoffman, Esq.

4 SCHONBRUN SEPLOW HARRIS & HOFFMAN, LLP

5 200 Pier Avenue

6 Hermosa Beach, California 90254

7 310-396-0731

8 [email protected]

9 - and -

10 Steven M. Watt, Esq.

11 AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION FOUNDATION

12 125 Broad Street - 18th Floor

13 New York, New York 10004

14 212-284-7321


16

17 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:

18 James T. Smith, Esq.

19 Charrise L. Alexander, Esq.

20 BLANK ROME, LLP

21 1825 Eye Street NW

22 Washington, DC 20006-5403




Page 197

1 ALSO PRESENT:

2 Ms. Margaret Odanga, Swahili Interpreter

3 Mr. Samuel Kendagor, Swahili Interpreter

4 Mr. Bill Slater, Videographer

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Page 198

1 I N D E X

2 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM - VOLUME 2

3 Continued Examination by Mr. Smith .............. 203

4

5

6 E X H I B I T S

7 NO. DESCRIPTION P AGE

82 Report of Dr. Sondra Crosby, M.D. 2 51

96 Plaintiff Suleiman Abdullah Salim's

10 Objections and Responses to Defendants' Interrogatories 2 06

118 Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial

12 (Marked in 3/14/17 deposition.) 232

13 15 Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Finding and Conclusions

14 Executive Summary - Approved 12/13/12 233

15 16 Injruies for which Plaintiffs Claim Damages 2 46

1618 New York Times Article "After Torture,

17 Ex-Detainee Is Still Captive of "The Darkness" 2 37

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Page 199

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. SMITH: So, Mr. Hoffman, good

3 morning. Yesterday, at the end of day one of

4 Mr. Salim's deposition, we provided to you

5 authorities and asked you to consider them

6 over the night and to give us any authority

7 that you thought was contrary to the authorit y

8 we were providing to you with respect to my

9 questioning about the factual basis for the

10 allegations in paragraph 74 of the complaint ,

11 that defendant's Mitchell and Jessen subject ed

12 Mr. Salim "to a regimen of torture and cruel ,

13 inhuman, and degrading treatment in accordan ce

14 with the phased torture program that [they]

15 designed, supervised, and implemented."

16 And you may recall that you

17 instructed the witness not to answer based

18 upon the attorney/client privilege.

19 I objected to that. I provided

20 authorities to you by the end of the -- or b y

21 the close of the deposition, indicating that

22 we had a right to understand the factual bas is

23 for the allegations and the attorney/client

24 privilege cannot be invoked to stop that. I n


Page 200

1 substance, that's what the authority said.

2 You said that you were going to

3 consider those authorities and give us

4 contrary authorities and, perhaps, a

5 stipulation. We expected to get that based

6 upon what you said last evening. We didn't.

7 But we did speak off the record this morning,

8 just moments ago.

9 I still haven't been provided any

10 authorities, however, you did propose a

11 stipulation. So what I ask is that you woul d

12 put the stipulation on the record.

13 My intention is to discuss it with

14 my colleagues back on -- in the United State s.

15 It's three o'clock in the morning there so

16 we'll have to wait a couple hours before I g et

17 them out of bed, but at least let's get the

18 stipulation on the record so that we can

19 advise our colleague exactly what you have i n

20 mind and, then, we'll see where that takes u s.

21 Is that fair?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. And let me say,

23 before I put the stipulation on the record, in

24 response to what you're saying, I did review


Page 201

1 the two cases that you sent to me.

2 I don't think that they -- that they

3 exactly state that you're entitled to the kin d

4 of information that you're -- that you're

5 requiring because I think what -- what is fai r

6 is that you're entitled to know facts that he

7 has. You are not entitled to know how those

8 facts are being used in a legal sense or -- o r

9 any communications between lawyers and

10 clients.

11 But in order not to -- to advance

12 the deposition and not to get into fights

13 about all this, we would propose the followi ng

14 stipulation which we hope would be acceptabl e

15 and would -- would make it easier to get

16 through this part of the deposition, and tha t

17 is: No. 1, that Mr. Salim has no independen t

18 knowledge of facts beyond his own personal

19 experience relating to the claims in this

20 case; that any facts that he might remember or

21 be asked about, to the extent that he has

22 them, have come from his attorneys and their

23 investigation; and that all such facts have

24 been disclosed by the plaintiffs already in


Page 202

1 response to defendant's discovery requests.

2 MR. SMITH: Just so we're clear, I

3 do take exception to -- and I want to put it

4 on the record, and I may be doing a little bi t

5 more than that following this deposition, I d o

6 take issue with whether or not we have a righ t

7 to know the factual basis for the core

8 allegation that links our client, or clients,

9 into this alleged wrongdoing, particularly

10 that they designed, supervised and implement ed

11 a phased torture program relating to

12 Mr. Salim, but I can't go beyond where we ar e

13 right now.

14 But I will tell you I struggle, and

15 I'm just telling you right now on the record ,

16 I struggle to understand the good faith basi s

17 on which you can continue that allegation in

18 light of what's been learned in the

19 depositions in this case. I struggle to. B ut

20 that's for another day.

21 So why don't we just get going with

22 day two of Mr. Salim's deposition and, then,

23 we'll see where we go from there.

24 Mr. Salim, good morning.


Page 203

1 VIDEOGRAPHER: You want to go on the

2 record?

3 MR. SMITH: Oh, yeah, we should.

4 VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins day No. 2

5 in the video deposition of Suleiman Abdullah

6 Salim. We are back on the record. The time

7 is 9:06 a.m.

8 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,

9 a witness called for examination by counsel

10 for the defendant, having been previously du ly

11 sworn, was examined and testified as follows :

12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Mr. Salim, good morning.

15 A. Good.

16 Q. Are you ready to proceed today, sir?

17 A. I'm ready.

18 Q. Are you feeling well and believing that you

19 can continue to give your deposition?

20 A. I think I can.

21 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, between the time we left

22 last evening and the time now that we're

23 starting day 2 of your deposition, have you

24 discussed your testimony with anyone?


Page 204

1 A. I think nobody.

2 Q. Are you not sure?

3 A. Nobody.

4 Q. All right. Mr. Salim, while you were held at

5 the facility that you refer to as "darkness,"

6 did you attempt to commit suicide?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell me what happened?

9 A. Yes, I can. You know, I had a lot of pain in

10 my fingers, so they were giving me ibuprofen

11 800 grams, so I decided to hide them under m y

12 pants. And then, one day, I decided that,

13 today, I can take all of them. That's what I

14 did.

15 Q. How many pills did you take, Mr. Salim?

16 A. I can't remember, but they were many.

17 Q. Who gave you these pills?

18 A. I don't know the person, but that person is

19 the one that was bringing food.

20 Q. Mr. Salim, do you have any factual basis to

21 claim that my clients, Drs. Mitchell and

22 Jessen, were in any way involved in this

23 activity?

24 Let me withdraw that question.


Page 205

1 Mr. Salim, is it your contention

2 that Drs. Mitchell and Jessen are responsible

3 in any way for providing those pills to you o r

4 what followed?


6 answer it.

7 THE WITNESS: I can't tell who was

8 responsible for telling them to give me this

9 medication.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. Mr. Salim, do you know what an interrogatory

12 is?

13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: For the

14 interpreter, can you just break the word a

15 little bit, in layman term? To interrogate,

16 is that what you said?

17 MR. SMITH: I asked Mr. Salim if he

18 knows what an interrogatory is, Margaret.

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yeah, but I'm

20 saying can you break the word for me.

21 MR. SMITH: Break the word?

22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Interrogatory.

23 MR. SMITH: Oh. An interrogatory i s

24 a formal question in --


Page 206

1 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Like

2 interrogate?

3 MR. SMITH: -- America that needs to

4 be answered under oath.


6 (Translating.)

7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. I don't.

8 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said he

9 doesn't understand.

10 MR. SMITH: Okay. Let me show you

11 what we're going to mark in the case as

12 Exhibit No. 6.

13 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 6 was

14 marked for identification.)

15 BY MR. SMITH:

16 Q. Mr. Salim, do you recognize what's been mark ed

17 as Exhibit No. 6?

18 A. I don't recognize.

19 Q. Turn, if you would -- let me just identify

20 Exhibit No. 6 as "Plaintiff Suleiman Abdulla h

21 Salim's Objections and Responses to

22 Defendants' Interrogatories."

23 Have you ever seen this document

24 before today, Mr. Salim?


Page 207

1 A. Never.

2 Q. Did you ever see this document in Swahili?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Turn, if you would, to the last page of

5 Exhibit No. 6. I'm sorry. The second to the

6 last page, page 36 of Exhibit No. 6.

7 Can you put it before the witness,

8 please.

9 Mr. Salim, page 36 purports to be a

10 certification bearing your signature. Do yo u

11 see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you sign this document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you sign the document on November 28th,

16 2016?

17 A. I can't remember that.

18 Q. Did you review the information on pages 1

19 through 35 before you signed the certificati on

20 on page 36?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. And you

22 can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I did not.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 208

1 Q. Did you review any information before you

2 signed this certification?


4 can answer.

5 THE WITNESS: I looked at them, but

6 I did not know what it was.

7 BY MR. SMITH:

8 Q. When you say you looked at them, what did you

9 look at?

10 A. Like just going through.

11 Q. Who showed you this information on pages 1

12 through 35?

13 A. Nobody showed me. I was given the paper and

14 nobody showed me.

15 Q. Who gave you the paper?

16 A. My lawyer.

17 Q. What's the name of your lawyer?

18 A. Steven.

19 Q. And was he present when he handed you the

20 paper?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did it come in the mail?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How was it delivered to you?


Page 209

1 A. I think through the email.

2 Q. Okay. And was the paper that was sent to you

3 by email in the English language or in

4 Swahili?

5 A. English.

6 Q. Did you have any idea what you were reading

7 before you signed the certification?


9 answer.

10 THE WITNESS: I just signed it.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Did you have any understanding of what you

13 were reading before you signed it?

14 A. I did not read it.

15 Q. And did you have any understanding when you

16 signed the certification that you were signi ng

17 it subject to the potential punishments if

18 information in there was willfully false?



21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. Who told you that?

23 A. My lawyer.

24 Q. Turn, if you would, to subpart G.


Page 210

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you have a page

2 number?

3 MR. SMITH: Page 26.

4 BY MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Do you have it before you, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 (The following portion has been deemed

8 confidential and bound under separate cover)

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Page 213

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13 (Non-confidential testimony resumes.)

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Were your eyes covered the entire period of

16 time that you were in the room, Mr. Salim?


18 answer.

19 THE WITNESS: I'm responding to yo u

20 again, it was not a cloth that was tied, bu t

21 it was a dark glass that was put on my face .

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. When was the dark glass put on your face?

24 A. Since we left Bossasso heading to Djibouti.


Page 214

1 Q. And did those dark glasses remain on your fa ce

2 the entire time you were in Djibouti?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were your hands in handcuffs or otherwis e

5 shackled the entire time that you were in

6 Djibouti?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Okay. Yo u

9 answered. You have to just wait, give me a

10 chance to object.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. If I recall your testimony yesterday, you w ere

13 transported from Somalia to Djibouti, is th at

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were in Djibouti for approximately one

17 day, if I recall your testimony from

18 yesterday.


20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: It was not a whole d ay

22 because I left at night. It wasn't until t he

23 next morning. It was in between nighttime.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 215

1 Q. Okay. Thank you.

2 Mr. Salim, during the period of tim e

3 that you were wearing these dark glasses, we re

4 you able to see through the glasses to any

5 images of people or things?

6 A. I wasn't able to.

7 Q. Now, is it your testimony that there were

8 people taking photographs while you were bei ng

9 raped by this person?

10 A. I don't remember saying that.

11 Q. Did you ever tell your lawyers that

12 photographs were being taken?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. And --


15 BY MR. SMITH:

16 Q. You did?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: I move to strike and

19 instruct him not to answer any attorney/cli ent

20 communications.

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. Do you have any memory that photographs wer e

23 taken?

24 A. Yes.


Page 216

1 Q. So your testimony is that photographs were

2 taken?


4 answer.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

6 BY MR. SMITH:

7 Q. Who took photographs?

8 A. I don't know the person.

9 Q. How do you know that photographs were taken?

10 A. I could see the flash.

11 Q. How many flashes did you see?


13 Q. Was it more than one?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Turn, if you would, to page 20. Do you see in

16 footnote 1 on page 20, it says, quote:

17 "Though Mr. Salim identifies rectal injury as

18 occurring during his rendition, detention,

19 torture and other cruel, inhuman, and

20 degrading treatment as a result of his

21 inclusion in the program, and includes this

22 injury in his answers to interrogatories."

23 MR. SMITH: Should I stop there an d

24 give you a chance to catch up, Margaret, or


Page 217

1 should I keep going?


3 MR. SMITH: Go ahead.

4 (Translating.)

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. "He is unaware of any facts that would

7 establish the defendants' responsibility for

8 that injury and, accordingly, does not here

9 pursue damages for this injury."

10 A. I don't know. I just know that I was

11 persecuted. I don't know if they were

12 involved in it. My lawyers can answer that .

13 Through my lawyers investigation, they can

14 know.

15 Q. So are you aware, Mr. Salim, that you have

16 conceded that there are no facts that

17 establish the defendants' responsibility fo r

18 this rape that you contend?

19 A. I can't, myself, I can't know who was

20 responsible. My lawyers, through their

21 investigation, can answer that.

22 Q. I understand, but I'm asking the witness if he

23 is aware that his lawyers have conceded tha t

24 there are no facts to establish the


Page 218

1 defendants' responsibility.


3 answer it.


5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Is today the first day you're hearing about

7 it?


9 answer.


11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Okay. And is -- well, strike that.

13 Mr. Salim, I want to change subjec t

14 matters. After you left the salt pit, wher e

15 were you taken to?

16 A. Bagram.

17 Q. Who sent you to Bagram?

18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Who sent?

19 MR. SMITH: You to Bagram.


21 Q. How were you taken there?

22 A. Through a helicopter or airplane.

23 Q. Did you see the people who actually took yo u

24 on the helicopter or the airplane?


Page 219

1 A. I did not.

2 Q. Were you able to hear anything while you wer e

3 taken from the salt pit to Bagram?

4 A. I did not.

5 Q. Do you remember the conditions under which y ou

6 were transported?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe them for me?

9 A. Two people came into the room where I was an d

10 they first took my pictures when I was nake d.

11 After that, I was able -- I put on my cloth es

12 and then some people came to the room, very

13 forceful, they handcuffed me and also my le gs.

14 They covered my face. I had some speakers,

15 they put some speakers and glasses, then th ey

16 took me.

17 Q. Okay. And how did you know that you were

18 taken to Bagram?

19 A. I didn't know where I was going. So, becau se

20 up till living there, that's when I became

21 aware that I was in Bagram.

22 Q. Okay. Now, when you arrived at Bagram, whe re

23 were you taken?

24 A. It was like a room.


Page 220

1 Q. Can you describe the room?

2 A. So the room was like from here to here to th e

3 wall. (Gesturing.)

4 Q. And would you say it was 3 meters by 3 meter s?

5 A. I don't know anything about meters.

6 Q. Okay. How long were you kept in that room?

7 A. I'm not very sure, but I think it was betwee n

8 one and a half week to two weeks.

9 Q. Okay. And while you were in the room for

10 those one and a half to two weeks, were you

11 permitted to go outside?

12 A. Maybe when I'm going to brush, and that's i t.

13 Q. Was there light in the room?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, during that period of time that you we re

16 in this room for one and a half to two week s,

17 were you interrogated by anyone?

18 A. They would come and take me to another plac e

19 for when they were asking me questions.

20 Q. How many times did that happen while you we re

21 in that room?

22 A. I don't recall.

23 Q. And were these Americans who would come and

24 take you?


Page 221

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know if they were from the CIA?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Do you know if they were from the United

5 States Army?

6 A. The people that were taking me from the room

7 were from the Army, but the ones that were

8 asking questions, I didn't know where they

9 were from.

10 Q. Now, during the period of time that you wer e

11 asked these questions, can you describe for me

12 what occurred?


14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Just normal question s.

16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. What kind of questions did they ask you?

18 A. The same questions that they asked me from the

19 beginning to the end.

20 Q. Have you told me about those questions?


22 answer.


24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 222

1 Q. Now, during that period for the first one an d

2 a half to two weeks, did anyone beat you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did anyone subject you to any of the things

5 that you testified occurred at darkness?


7 answer.

8 THE WITNESS: No.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. After you were taken out of that room a wee k

11 and a half or two weeks later, where did yo u

12 go next?

13 A. I was taken to another cell that was bigger .

14 Q. How much bigger was it?

15 A. Like this room.

16 Q. Okay. And were you the only one that was i n

17 the cell?

18 A. Other people.

19 Q. How many other people?

20 A. It depends. There are times there would be 10

21 people, sometimes 15.

22 Q. Okay. Where did you sleep?

23 A. They gave us like things like blankets to

24 sleep on.


Page 223

1 Q. And how long were you kept in this cell?

2 A. That's where I was until I was released.

3 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of time that y ou

4 were in this cell, were you interrogated?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How frequently were you interrogated?

7 A. I can't estimate because there would -- it

8 would be -- there would -- it would take a

9 long time before they come to inter -- to as k

10 me questions and there are times that they

11 would do it more often.

12 Q. And you don't recall the frequency or

13 infrequency in which you were interrogated

14 while you were in this cell?


16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I can't recall.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: You have to give me a

19 chance to object.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Now, when you were interrogated, were you

22 taken to another room or did it occur in th e

23 cell?

24 A. I was taken to another room.


Page 224

1 Q. And was that the same room you were taken to

2 when you were interrogated during that week

3 and a half to two weeks?

4 A. No, they kept on changing.

5 Q. Okay. Now, during the interrogations, durin g

6 that period that you were in the larger cell ,

7 did anyone beat you?

8 A. Like soldiers or...

9 Q. Well, I don't want to -- the people that wer e

10 interrogating you. So let me ask the quest ion

11 again. I'll withdraw that one.

12 During the period of time that you

13 were in the larger cell, you testified that

14 you were interrogated, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And those interrogations would take place

17 after you were taken to another room for th e

18 interrogation, correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And during those interrogations, did anyone

21 beat you or injure you in any way?

22 A. No.

23 Q. During the course of those interrogations, did

24 you sustain any injuries of any kind?


Page 225

1 A. No.

2 Q. And can you tell me what kinds of questions

3 were asked of you during those interrogation s?


5 answer.

6 THE WITNESS: The same questions.

7 BY MR. SMITH:

8 Q. You were released from Bagram in August of

9 2008, sir, is that correct?

10 A. I don't know the month, but I know it was i n

11 2008.

12 Q. Now, during the period of time that you wer e

13 in Bagram, you learned to speak English?

14 A. It's not like I was in a class, I trained f or

15 it, but just because the -- the guards that

16 were talking to us were talking to us, were

17 communicating in English, so that's how I

18 picked up.

19 Q. How did you learn about your release from

20 Bagram?

21 A. Rephrase your question.

22 Q. How did you learn about your release from

23 Bagram?

24 A. Before I was discharged, the Red Cross peop le


Page 226

1 came.

2 Q. Had you ever been in contact with the Red

3 Cross people before that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When were you first in communication with

6 someone from the Red Cross?


8 Q. How many times were you in communication wit h

9 someone from the Red Cross?

10 A. I think about two times.

11 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you talked abou t?

12 A. They wanted to -- me to write a letter that

13 was being taken home.

14 Q. To whom? A letter to whom?

15 A. My moms, my mothers.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Salim, am I to understand correctl y

17 that the only -- strike that -- that the

18 damages you're seeking in this case concern

19 the treatment that you were subjected to at

20 darkness?


22 answer.


24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 227

1 Q. Have you ever heard the expression "big boss "?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Had you ever heard of Dr. Mitchell's name

4 before you met the lawyers from the ACLU?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Had you ever heard of Dr. Jessen's name befo re

7 you met the lawyers from the ACLU?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Mr. Salim, when did you first learn about th e

10 possibility of bringing this lawsuit?

11 A. I can't remember the year.

12 Q. How did you learn?

13 A. Through a Tanzanian lawyer.

14 Q. What was the name of the Tanzanian lawyer?

15 A. M for Mary, K for kilo, O for orange, N for

16 Nancy, O for orange.

17 MR. SMITH: Could you spell that

18 again for me, Mary (sic)?

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: M for Mary.

20 MR. SMITH: You can skip the Mary

21 stuff. Just M-K.

22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: M-K-O-N-O.

23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. Did you know this lawyer M-K-O-N-O?


Page 228

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did you know him?

3 Was it a him or a her?

4 A. Him.

5 Q. It's a man. Okay. How did you know this

6 lawyer?

7 A. He's somebody that is known. He's known as a

8 lawyer.

9 Q. How did you know him?


11 answer.

12 THE WITNESS: He's just known as a

13 lawyer.

14 BY MR. SMITH:

15 Q. He's known as a lawyer where?

16 A. In Tanzania.

17 Q. And did he contact you or did you contact h im?

18 A. I am the one who went to him.

19 Q. And why did you go to him?

20 A. I wanted to get to have my rights.

21 Q. And what action did he take on your behalf?

22 A. He got another lawyer.

23 Q. And what lawyer did he get?

24 A. Clara.


Page 229

1 Q. Who is Clara?

2 A. A she.

3 Q. No, who is she?

4 A. The lawyer.

5 Q. What is her full name?

6 A. I just know Clara.

7 Q. Okay. And where is she from?

8 A. England.

9 Q. And what action did Clara take on your behal f?

10 A. She helped look for other attorneys.

11 Q. Okay. And did she find another attorney fo r

12 you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who did she find?

15 A. ACLU.

16 Q. When were you first in contact with the ACL U?

17 A. I don't remember the date.

18 Q. Okay. You filed this lawsuit in October of

19 2015. Are you aware of that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You don't know when the lawsuit was filed?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How many times had you met with

24 representatives of the ACLU before October


Page 230

1 2015?

2 A. I can't remember how many times.

3 Q. Did you ever meet with any representatives

4 from the ACLU before October 2015?

5 A. I don't know the year, but I know I -- I met

6 them, but I don't know the year.

7 Q. Do you know if that meeting took place befor e

8 or after the lawsuit was filed?


10 answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I can't recall.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Where did the meeting take place?

14 A. Dubai.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Object. Just give m e

16 a chance.


18 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm going to object to

19 the prior question, but he can answer, so

20 that's fine.

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. Who was present at this meeting?

23 A. Steven.

24 Q. Anyone else?


Page 231

1 A. Clara.

2 Q. Anyone else?


4 Q. Was there an interpreter present?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Does Clara speak Swahili?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When you met with Clara and Steven in Dubai,

9 did everyone speak English at the meeting?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long did you meet for?

12 A. I can't remember. It was just a few days.

13 Q. Now, during the meeting -- are you saying t he

14 meeting went on for several days?


16 Q. Now, over the course of two days, did you h ave

17 any difficulty understanding them?


19 answer.


21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. Who paid for you to go to Dubai?

23 A. I remember it was Clara.

24 Q. Can you place the witness -- before the


Page 232

1 witness Exhibit No. 8.

2 Mr. Salim, did you authorize the

3 American Civil Liberties Union to file this

4 document on your behalf?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Did you ever review this document at any tim e

7 prior to when I showed it to you yesterday,

8 this document being Exhibit 8?


10 answer.

11 THE WITNESS: No.

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Why don't we take a -- well, let me just co ver

14 one other subject and we'll take a break.

15 Mr. Salim, have you ever heard of

16 the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

17 report that was prepared in connection with

18 matters that are embodied in your complaint ?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did you hear about it?

21 A. I don't remember the date.

22 Q. Let me show you what we're going to mark in

23 the case as Exhibit No. 15.

24


Page 233

1 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 15 wa s


3 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 15 before today?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know if Exhibit No. 15 is the Senate

6 Select Committee on Intelligence report?


8 answer.


10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. No one has ever shown this document to you in

12 any language, English or Swahili?


14 Q. Were you ever interviewed by anyone followi ng

15 your release from Bagram about the

16 circumstances of your captivity?

17 A. No.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you think a break

19 would be okay right now?

20 MR. SMITH: Sure.



23 (Brief pause.)



Page 234


2 BY MR. SMITH:

3 Q. Mr. Salim, I understand from your lawyers th at

4 there's something you'd like to say for the

5 record.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What would you like to say?

8 A. You asked me if I have ever interviewed ever

9 since I left. (Translating.) You said -- y ou

10 asked me if anybody interviewed me after th is

11 report came out?

12 Q. What -- Mr. Salim, whatever you'd like to s ay

13 for the record, I'm giving you an opportuni ty

14 to say it. What would you like to say, sir ?

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Could you have the

16 last question that you asked reread? I thi nk

17 he asked for that before. And that may be the

18 easiest way to get at this.

19 MR. SMITH: Why don't we read back

20 the question for the witness.



23 "QUESTION: Were you ever

24 interviewed by anyone following y our


Page 235

1 release from Bagram about the

2 circumstances of your captivity?

3 "ANSWER: No.")

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've ever been

5 interviewed, based on...

6 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, yes?

7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: The answer is

8 yes.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. Who interviewed you?

11 A. I remember the name James.

12 Q. Spell it, please.

13 A. J-A-M-E-S.

14 Q. Oh, James. Do you remember James's last na me?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And just so I'm not assuming anything, was

17 James this person's first name?

18 A. I just know a James from New York Times.

19 Q. Now, did you forget about this interview wh en

20 you originally answered my question "no"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And who reminded you about this interview?

23 A. Myself.

24 Q. Oh. So your lawyers didn't remind you of t his


Page 236

1 interview during the last break?

2 A. They reminded me.

3 Q. They reminded you. Okay.

4 When did this interview take place?

5 A. In Dubai.

6 Q. But when did it take place?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Who was present for the interview?

9 A. My lawyer.

10 Q. Which lawyer?

11 A. Steven.

12 Q. Did this interview take place in Dubai duri ng

13 the same trip in which you met Steven and

14 Clara?


16 Q. How many times have you been to Dubai in

17 connection with this case?


19 Q. Do you know if following the interview the

20 New York Times had a report? Let me strike

21 that. Start all over again.

22 Do you know if following this

23 interview with this person named James that an

24 article appeared in the New York Times?


Page 237

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you see the article?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who showed you the article?

5 A. My lawyer.

6 Q. Was the article shown to you in English or i n

7 Swahili?

8 A. English.

9 Q. And did you read the article in English?

10 A. I did not read it.

11 Q. Let me hand to you what we're going to mark as

12 Exhibit No. 18.

13 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 18 w as


15 Q. Do you recognize what's been marked as Exhi bit

16 No. 18 as an article that appeared in the

17 New York Times on October 12th, 2016, entit led

18 "After Torture, Ex-Detainee Still Captive o f

19 'The Darkness'"?


21 answer.


23 BY MR. SMITH:

24 Q. And the James that you made reference to fr om


Page 238

1 the New York Times, was it James Risen?

2 A. I only know James. I don't know Risen.

3 Q. And do you recall now, looking at Exhibit

4 No. 18, if you met with James and your lawye r,

5 Mr. Steven Watt, in Dubai in October of 2016 ?


7 answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the

9 year, but we were in Dubai.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. So you can't tell me if you met with James and

12 Mr. Watt last October, is that your testimo ny?


14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: I met them, but I

16 don't know the man.

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. You met them last year?


20 answer.


22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. So you don't know the month or the year in

24 which you met with James from the New York


Page 239

1 Times in Dubai, is that your testimony?


3 (Translating.)


5 (Translating.)


7 answer.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. Now, during the -- strike that.

11 Who set this meeting up with James

12 from the New York Times?


14 answer.


16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. Who told you about it?


19 answer.

20 THE WITNESS: About what?

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. About the meeting.

23 A. Repeat your question.

24 Q. Who told you about the meeting with James i n


Page 240

1 Dubai?

2 A. My lawyer.

3 Q. And who paid for you to come to Dubai to be

4 interviewed by James?


6 answer.


8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. You didn't pay for it, did you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, during the course of this interview, d o

12 you recall if you were asked questions abou t

13 my clients, Drs. Mitchell and Jessen?


15 Q. Turn, if you would, to the last page of

16 Exhibit No. 18. Do you see where it says o n

17 the top of the page, first paragraph, quote :

18 "He is now a plaintiff in a lawsuit against

19 two CIA contractors who helped devise and r un

20 the brutal interrogation program of which h e

21 was a part."

22 Do you see that, sir?

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, I'll object to

24 that, it's not a quote.


Page 241

1 MR. SMITH: No. I'm quoting from

2 the document.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh. Well, but the wa y

4 you asked it, it made it sound like that was a

5 quote.

6 MR. SMITH: Maybe it sounded that

7 way to you, but that's not what I said. I

8 said "do you see where it says, quote."

9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember

10 saying it.

11 BY MR. SMITH:

12 Q. So that was going to be my next question. Did

13 you tell Mr. Risen, Mr. James Risen, that y ou

14 were "a plaintiff in a lawsuit against two CIA

15 contractors who helped devise and run the

16 brutal interrogation program" for which you

17 were a part, did you say that to him?


19 Q. Who were the two CIA contractors that are

20 referenced there, do you know?


22 answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I don't know them.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 242

1 Q. Do you have any factual basis for the

2 proposition that two CIA contractors helped

3 devise and run the interrogation program tha t

4 you were subjected to?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Do you know if it was your lawyers who set u p

10 this interview with you with Mr. Risen, Jam es

11 Risen?


13 answer.


15 BY MR. SMITH:

16 Q. Do you know if the purpose of this intervie w

17 was to generate publicity about the lawsuit

18 that had been filed against my clients?


20 answer.


22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. Did you ever speak to James again after the

24 meeting in Dubai?


Page 243

1 A. No. No.

2 Q. Did you ever speak to anyone from the New Yo rk

3 Times other than or in addition to James?

4 A. None.

5 Q. So I want to go back, now, to Exhibit No. 15 ,

6 sir. Let me ask you, have you ever heard th e

7 name Abu Talha al-Pakistani?

8 A. Never.

9 Q. Did you ever use that name as an alias?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 374 of

12 Exhibit No. 15.

13 Mr. Salim, do you know a man named

14 Hassan Ghul?


16 Q. Did you ever meet a person named Hassan Ghu l?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know an individual who uses the

19 initials "KSM"?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever hear the name Khaled Sheikh

22 Mohamed?

23 A. I've never heard.

24 Q. Do you know an individual by name of Ammar


Page 244

1 al-Baluchi? Al, B-A-L-U-C-H-I.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Ham za

4 Rabi? R-A-B-I.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Sir, I want you to direct -- I want to direc t

7 your attention to footnote No. 2110 on page

8 374 of Exhibit No. 15.

9 Do you see where it says "Hassan

10 Ghul stated that he knew Talha al-Pakistani ,

11 a/k/a Suleiman"? Do you see that?

12 A. I can see here.

13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you again, did you ever u se

14 the alias Talha al-Pakistani?


16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I've never.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Reading on, it says -- strike that.

20 Let me ask you, Mr. Salim, is ther e

21 something you find humorous about that?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Instruct

23 you not to answer. It's argumentative.

24 MR. SMITH: No, it's not. I'm jus t


Page 245

1 curious to know what the witness would find

2 humorous in that. He was just laughing on t he

3 record.


5 answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Because it's just

7 shocking to me.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Shocking. Mr. Salim, do you understand that

10 this document --

11 A. (Interrupting in Swahili.)

12 Q. Mr. Salim, do you understand this document,

13 Exhibit 15, is a document that your lawyers

14 are relying upon, in part, in connection wi th

15 this lawsuit?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And what you're saying is that the suggesti on

18 in this report that you were known, in fact it

19 is you, as an alias "Talha al-Pakistani" is

20 just false, is that right?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: And I'll object

22 that -- object, but he can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: Not true.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 246

1 Q. Okay. Just go back to 2110 for a second,

2 where it says Ghul -- second sentence: "Ghu l

3 last saw Talha in Shkai around

4 October/November 2003."

5 Let me stop right there. Do you se e

6 that?

7 A. (Translating.)

8 Q. Do you see it?

9 A. I see it.

10 Q. Where is Shkai?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Have you ever been there?

13 A. I don't know anybody there. I've never bee n

14 there.

15 Q. Okay. Were you ever at the residence of Ha mza

16 Rabi? R-A-B-I.


18 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 16 w as


20 Q. Mr. Salim, I'm going to hand you what we've

21 marked as Exhibit No. 16 for the record.


23 before today?

24 A. No.


Page 247

1 Q. I want to -- do you see your name appears in

2 the middle of the page?

3 A. I see.

4 Q. Are you seeking to recover damages for pain

5 related to the digits on your right hand wit h

6 resulting contractures?


8 answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. And your right hand, I think you told us

12 yesterday, was broken by the Somalis?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you received treatment for your hand wh ile

15 you were in captivity by the United States, is

16 that right?


18 answer.

19 THE WITNESS: There was no

20 treatment. In fact, it was even -- they ev en

21 made it more painful.

22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. And how did the Americans make it more

24 painful?


Page 248

1 A. While I was at "The Darkness," when they wer e

2 beating me, when they were hanging me, it wa s

3 just making these pains more painful.

4 Q. Now, do you presently experience pain in you r

5 hands, presently?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you presently receiving any medical

8 treatment?

9 A. I just use traditional herbs at home.

10 Q. Okay. When is the last time you received

11 treatment for your hand injuries on your ri ght

12 hand?

13 A. I never received any treatment.

14 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Sondra

15 Crosby?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who is Sondra Crosby?

18 A. A doctor.

19 Q. What kind of doctor?

20 A. I don't know. I just know her as a doctor.

21 Q. How did you come to know her?

22 A. She came with Clara.

23 Q. Came where with Clara?

24 A. In Zanzibar.


Page 249

1 Q. When did you meet with Clara and Sondra Cros by

2 in Zanzibar?


4 Q. Who else was present?

5 A. I don't remember who. I remember they came

6 with the lawyer. I have forgotten.

7 Q. And your testimony is that you never receive d

8 any medical treatment for the injuries to yo ur

9 right hand, is that correct?

10 A. Let me tell you something, when I was at "T he

11 Darkness," when my fingers were hurting so

12 bad, they wrapped something hard around my

13 fingers.

14 When they were beating me, there w as

15 some water that was coming out of it and th en

16 my hands were hurting so bad. When I told

17 them to treat me, they didn't do it.

18 I went on strike and so they came

19 and they removed the hard thing and, by the n,

20 my hand was stinking and there was a cut fr om

21 here going down. (Gesturing.)

22 So they brought some -- a bowl wit h

23 water and they told me to put my hand -- to

24 put my hand in it. So that is what made th e


Page 250

1 wound close and so if there's any treatment

2 that I can say, it was that.

3 Q. Okay. Well, when you met with Sondra Crosby ,

4 what did you talk about?


6 Q. How many times did you meet with Sondra

7 Crosby?

8 A. I think twice.

9 Q. So one time in Zanzibar?

10 A. And one time in Dar es Salaam. Dar es Sala am.

11 Q. Oh, Dar es Salaam.

12 When did you meet with her in

13 Dar es Salaam?


15 Q. How long did you meet with her in Zanzibar?

16 A. Like how many days?

17 Q. Yes.


19 Q. Same question with respect to Dar es Salaam .

20 A. About four days.

21 Q. Who else was present during that meeting?

22 A. Nobody else.

23 Q. Do you remember what you talked about?

24 A. I remember she was just asking me how I was


Page 251

1 doing.

2 Q. Do you remember anything else you talked

3 about?


5 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 2 was


7 Q. I'm going to hand to you what's been marked

8 for identification purposes as Exhibit No. 2 .


10 before today?

11 A. No.

12 Q. For the record, I'll identify it as a "Repo rt

13 of Dr. Sondra Crosby, MD." The report does

14 not have a date.

15 You've never seen it before?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you have any memory of meeting with

18 Dr. Crosby and Dr. Joan Nyanyuki,

19 N-Y-A-N-Y-U-K-I, on May 16 and 17, 2010?


21 Q. Do you have any memory of meeting with

22 Dr. Crosby on October 7 through 10 of 2016?


24 answer.


Page 252

1 THE WITNESS: I remember meeting

2 him, but I don't remember the date.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Okay. Meeting him or her?

5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: That is my --

6 MR. SMITH: Okay.

7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: -- mistake.

8 MR. SMITH: Meeting her. Okay.

9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Right. Yeah.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. Turn, if you would, to page 8 of Exhibit

12 No. 2. Do you see toward the top of the pa ge,

13 it says: "Afghanistan: "The Darkness."

14 Do you see that?

15 A. I see.

16 Q. Do you see in paragraph 41, it says, quote:

17 "Mr. Salim was blindfolded and taken to see a

18 doctor"?

19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Which

20 paragraph?

21 MR. SMITH: Forty-one.

22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, okay.

23 (Translating.)

24 THE WITNESS: Where?


Page 253

1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. Page 41 -- or paragraph 41 on page 8, do you

3 see where it says "Mr. Salim was blindfolded

4 and taken to see a doctor"?

5 A. I see, but in which jail?

6 Q. Well, I don't know. It says "Afghanistan:

7 "The Darkness" in her report.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: The only question was

9 "did you see it." That's all, right now.

10 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: The only question th at

12 he was asked is did he see it, then he's go ing

13 to ask more questions.

14 THE WITNESS: I see it.

15 BY MR. SMITH:

16 Q. Did you tell Dr. Crosby that while you were

17 being held in captivity at "The Darkness" t hat

18 you were taken to see a doctor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you taken to see a doctor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you tell Dr. Crosby that when you saw t hat

23 doctor, that the doctor x-rayed your finger s?

24 A. It wasn't like a big x-ray machine, it was


Page 254

1 something like a laptop that I put my finger

2 on.

3 Q. Did you understand it to be an x-ray?

4 A. They told me.

5 Q. So did you tell Dr. Crosby that when you wer e

6 taken to see this doctor that this doctor at

7 the facility that you refer to as "The

8 Darkness" did an x-ray on your hand?


10 Q. And did you tell Dr. Crosby that the doctor

11 had told you, following the x-ray, that you r

12 fingers were fractured?

13 A. I remember, yes.

14 Q. And did you tell -- in fact, the doctor did

15 tell you that your fingers were fractured,

16 isn't that right?

17 A. Something like that, I remember.

18 Q. And the doctor then placed your hand in a

19 cast, or your fingers, isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you told Dr. Crosby that, right, when s he

22 interviewed you, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And this was during the same period of time


Page 255

1 that you were being given medicine for -- to

2 help deal with the pain in your hand, correc t?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, am I to understand, sir, that after you

5 saw this doctor, whoever these people were a t

6 the facility continued to subject you to

7 beatings and shackles and the things that yo u

8 described yesterday?


10 answer.


12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Did the doctor have anything to do with the

14 decision to continue -- let me finish the

15 question. Let me strike that and start all

16 over again.

17 Mr. Salim, do you know if the doct or

18 was in any way involved in the decision to

19 expose you to those conditions or put you

20 through those conditions?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection and you ca n

22 answer.


24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 256

1 Q. Tell me what factual information you have th at

2 the doctor was involved.

3 A. After the x-ray and after wrapping the thing

4 on my hand, that's when the beatings started .

5 Q. Okay. But how do you know that the doctor h ad

6 anything to do with the decision to beat you

7 or do any of the other things that happened to

8 you?

9 A. After examining me and like examining my bod y,

10 the doctor said "take him."

11 Q. Okay. Are you saying that the doctor gave

12 orders to beat you and engage in the other

13 activities that you were subjected to?


15 answer.

16 THE WITNESS: He said "take him."

17 He didn't say they do it.

18 BY MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Okay. Take him back to your cell, is that

20 what he said?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go back to Exhibit No. 16. Do

23 you see the second item under your name

24 "musculoskeletal pain of the arms, shoulder s


Page 257

1 and upper back," do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you presently experiencing any pain in

4 your arms, shoulders or upper back?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How frequently?

7 A. All the time.

8 Q. In your arms, shoulders and upper back?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Are you presently experiencing pain as we

11 speak?

12 A. I have.

13 Q. Can you -- can you describe for me the pain

14 that you're experiencing in your arms?

15 A. It's bad pain.

16 Q. Can you show me where in your arms it hurts

17 and describe the pain?

18 A. On the back, here. (Gesturing.)

19 Q. In your back. Okay.

20 Is there pain in your arms,

21 Mr. Salim?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Are you presently experiencing pain in your

24 jaw?


Page 258

1 A. No. Right now, no, but I do experience it

2 sometimes.

3 Q. When was the last time you experienced pain in

4 your jaw?

5 A. I can't remember, but anytime I laugh, I get

6 the pain, or if I chew something, the pain

7 comes.

8 Q. Are you presently experiencing any pain in

9 your knees?

10 A. Right now?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Not now.

13 Q. When is the last time you experienced pain in

14 your knees?


16 Q. Do you -- for the pain that you describe in

17 your back, are you receiving any medical

18 treatment?

19 A. Herbal medication, like the traditional her bs.

20 Q. What are herbs?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Herbs.

22 MR. SMITH: Oh, herbs.

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Herbs.

24 MR. SMITH: Okay.


Page 259

1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. What kind of herbal medication are you takin g

3 for your back?

4 A. You can't know, they are just some leaves,

5 traditional leaves that she -- I put on my

6 back.

7 Q. Are you presently having any issues with you r

8 nose or sinuses?

9 A. I have problem with my nose.

10 Q. I'm sorry?

11 A. I have problem with my nose.

12 Q. Are you getting any medical treatment for y our

13 nose?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Are you experiencing any difficulties with

16 your sinuses?

17 A. Mostly, when my head is hurting, then I get

18 pain in my nose.

19 Q. Okay. How frequently do you get the pain i n

20 your nose?

21 A. Not so frequent.

22 Q. When is the last time you had it?


24 Q. And you mentioned headaches. Do you -- are


Page 260

1 you experiencing problems with headaches?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How frequently are you experiencing this

4 problem?

5 A. Many times.

6 Q. Can you be more specific about the frequency

7 of these headaches?

8 A. I can't tell you the frequency, but I feel

9 pain. Like last night, I had headache. Thi s

10 morning, I had headache. But sometimes it

11 hurts a lot, sometimes it doesn't.

12 Q. Do you have a headache now?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you know what tends to bring on thes e

15 headaches?

16 A. Sometimes it just comes by itself.

17 Q. Okay. Are you getting any medical treatmen t

18 for the headaches?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you taking anything for the headaches, any

21 medications?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Last night, when you had a headache, did yo u

24 take some aspirin?


Page 261

1 A. No.

2 Q. Is there a reason why you don't take any

3 aspirin?

4 A. I just don't want, myself.

5 Q. You mentioned yesterday that you experience

6 episodes of dizziness. Do you recall that,

7 Mr. Salim?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How frequently are you experiencing these

10 episodes of dizziness?

11 A. Many times.

12 Q. Is it -- does it occur on a daily basis?

13 A. Mostly, if I bend a lot --

14 Q. Sorry, if I?

15 A. I bend --

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. -- a lot, when I try to stand up, I get

18 dizziness. Like when I'm fishing, it force s

19 me to bend. And now, when I want to stand up,

20 I have to hold like this. (Gesturing.)

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Before I stand.

23 Q. Are you getting any medical treatment for t his

24 condition?


Page 262

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you taking any medication?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is there a reason why you don't see a doctor

5 about these dizzy episodes?

6 A. There's no doctor. If you go to the doctor,

7 they just give you Panadol. Panadol is like

8 Tylenol.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: Have you reached a

11 stopping point or...

12 MR. SMITH: You mean you want to

13 take a break?

14 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, I mean, I don' t

15 want to interrupt if you're in the middle o f

16 something.

17 MR. SMITH: We can take a break.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.



21 (Brief pause.)



24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 263

1 Q. Mr. Salim, are you seeking, as part of your

2 damages in this case, to recover for symptom s

3 relating to weakness and fatigue?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you presently experiencing symptoms

6 relating to weakness and fatigue?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe for me those symptoms?

9 A. I just feel like I'm so tired and the whole

10 body is painful.

11 Q. And are you getting any medical treatment f or

12 this condition?

13 A. Traditional herbs.

14 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

15 A. Traditional medicine.

16 Q. What kind of medicine?

17 A. Just like herbs.

18 Q. Herbs?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Okay. Have you sought any medical advice

21 related to this condition?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Mr. Salim, I want to ask you about your eat ing

24 habits. Do you eat regular meals every day ?


Page 264

1 A. I eat every day.

2 Q. Okay. For example, today, did you have any

3 meals?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me what your

6 -- how many meals a day you have?

7 A. Most of the time, twice.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. A day.

10 Q. And is that breakfast and dinner?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. May I ask you, what did you have for breakf ast

13 today?

14 A. Fine.

15 Q. What did you have?

16 A. Banana.

17 Q. One banana?

18 A. They brought bananas that were cut in piece s,

19 so I don't know whether they were -- the

20 number.

21 Q. Okay. And is that, typically, what you hav e

22 for breakfast?

23 A. Ever since I came here, I've been having th at.

24 Q. Okay. How about back home?


Page 265

1 A. I eat fish and soup in the morning.

2 Q. And how about for dinner?

3 A. It depends. Sometimes fish and bread or fis h

4 with something else.

5 Q. Okay. And do you drink water?

6 A. Sometimes I drink, sometimes just a little.

7 Q. And what other types of beverages do you dri nk

8 in addition to water?

9 A. I don't really drink that much. Sometimes I

10 drink juice, but just sometimes.

11 Q. Mr. Suleiman, have you ever asked your -- a

12 doctor whether or not some of these

13 conditions, like dizziness and headaches an d

14 fatigue, were related to your diet?

15 A. Which doctor?

16 Q. Any doctor.

17 A. I've never.

18 Q. You never asked?


20 Q. Do you know what a flashback is?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What is a flashback?

23 A. Like thinking of something that happened

24 before.


Page 266

1 Q. Okay. Do you experience flashbacks?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what do you flash back to?

4 A. It depends.

5 Q. What does it depend upon?

6 A. Depends with what I'm -- what I'm thinking a t

7 that time.

8 Q. But do you tend to flash back to one

9 particular thing or many things?

10 A. Most of the time, one thing.

11 Q. Okay. And what is that thing?

12 A. Tortured, being tortured.

13 Q. So what happened to you at darkness?

14 A. Most of the time, yes.

15 Q. And what -- if it's not a flashback to

16 darkness, what is the flashback to?

17 A. Bagram and salt pit.

18 Q. Okay. When is the last time you had a

19 flashback to Bagram?

20 A. Today.

21 Q. Can you describe for me what happened?

22 A. I -- (translating.) I was seeing myself li ke

23 I'm in a cell in Bagram. I was seeing myse lf

24 like I was in a cell in Bagram.


Page 267

1 Q. And how long did that flashback last?

2 A. It comes and goes. It comes and goes.

3 Q. How many times did it happen today?

4 A. One or two times.

5 Q. How long did the flashback last?

6 A. I don't know like how long it took.

7 Q. And do you experience any physical symptoms

8 during this flashback?

9 A. It depends with what I'm remembering or

10 thinking.

11 Q. Okay. And when is the last time you had a

12 flashback to darkness?

13 A. Right now.

14 Q. And are the flashbacks to darkness differen t

15 than the flashbacks to Bagram or salt pit?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Salim, you were taken out of darkness 1 3

18 years ago. Does that sound right?

19 A. I don't know how to count those years.

20 Q. Okay. So I think you were taken into

21 captivity in 2003. I think that's what you

22 told me yesterday.


24 A. Yes.


Page 268

1 Q. And you were kept in that darkness, as you

2 refer to it, for approximately two months?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that was some 13 or 14 years ago, right?

5 A. I don't know about the years.

6 Q. Now, these flashbacks, how long have you bee n

7 experiencing them?

8 A. I have answered you that it depends with wha t

9 I'm thinking.

10 Q. Okay. Have you been experiencing flashback s

11 for the last 13 or 14 years?

12 A. Ever since I was in jail, I get those

13 flashbacks.

14 Q. Okay. And has the frequency of the flashba cks

15 increased or decreased with the passage of

16 time?

17 A. It depends.

18 Q. What does it depend upon?

19 A. If I am working, like I'm doing something, I

20 don't get flashback that much as compared t o

21 when I'm not doing anything.

22 Q. Okay. And are you receiving any medical

23 treatment for these flashbacks?

24 A. No.


Page 269

1 Q. Are you taking any medication for the

2 flashbacks?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is there a reason why you're not getting

5 medical treatment for the flashbacks?

6 A. I see like it's going to make me crazy so

7 there's no need of taking me -- taking

8 medication, like it's going to have some

9 mental effect.

10 Q. The medication will?

11 A. That's what I'm thinking.

12 Q. Well, do you think if you go see a doctor t hat

13 you may get better?

14 A. There's no doctor in Zanzibar that can tell me

15 that.

16 Q. Did you ever try to find a doctor in Zanzib ar

17 to treat you?

18 A. No doctor.

19 Q. Did you try -- did you try to find a doctor in

20 Zanzibar to treat you?


22 answer.

23 THE WITNESS: None.

24 BY MR. SMITH:


Page 270

1 Q. Does that mean he looked and he couldn't fin d

2 one or does that mean he never looked?


4 answer.

5 THE WITNESS: I never looked.

6 BY MR. SMITH:

7 Q. Why didn't you look?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Do you contend that you suffer a brain injur y

10 as a result of what happened to you in

11 captivity?

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Object, but he can

13 answer.


15 BY MR. SMITH:

16 Q. What is the brain injury?

17 A. A lot of headaches.

18 Q. Who diagnosed, if anyone, that you have a

19 brain injury?

20 A. Nobody.

21 Q. But you think these headaches that you're

22 experiencing are related to some sort of

23 injury to your brain?

24 A. Yes.


Page 271

1 Q. But a doctor has never told you that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And you never saw a doctor to seek treatment

4 for these headaches, correct?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Are you suffering, presently, from a conditi on

10 related to ringing in your ears?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you describe for me that condition?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please do.

15 A. At times, I feel noise, like something just --

16 a sound like (making inaudible noise) and t hen

17 sometimes it's like something just going li ke

18 pop, pop, pop, pop, pop in my ear.

19 Q. Okay. How frequently do you experience tha t

20 condition?

21 A. The one that gives me the sounds of pop, po p,

22 pop doesn't happen more frequently, but the

23 sound, many times.

24 Q. Many times a day?


Page 272

1 A. I'm not very sure, but I can say like in a

2 day, maybe one time.

3 Q. Are you seeking any treatment for this

4 condition?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you seen a doctor?

7 A. For that condition, no.

8 Q. Are you taking any medication?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Has a doctor ever diagnosed what the cause is

11 of the ringing in the ears?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know what post-traumatic stress

14 disorder is?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Has a doctor ever advised you that you are

17 suffering from post-traumatic stress disord er?


19 answer.


21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. Have you ever seen a doctor for treatment f or

23 symptoms related to post-traumatic stress

24 disorder?


Page 273


2 answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what tha t

4 is.

5 BY MR. SMITH:

6 Q. Are you presently experiencing any feelings of

7 isolation?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe them?

10 A. I don't feel like being with people, I like

11 being with myself, and I don't like walking

12 around to see people.

13 Q. And when did you start experiencing that

14 feeling?

15 A. Ever since I came from jail.

16 Q. And prior to the time that you were taken i nto

17 captivity, arrested in 2003, I guess, were you

18 experiencing that feeling?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you seeking any medical advice or

21 treatment related to this condition?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know, are you familiar with the conc ept

24 of depression?


Page 274

1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you ever heard of the medical condition

3 depression?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of

6 hopelessness?

7 A. How?

8 Q. Well, are you presently experiencing feeling s

9 of hopelessness?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you describe them for the record?

12 A. I feel like I'm so weak and I can't do

13 anything.

14 Q. Are you seeking any treatment for that

15 condition?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you presently experiencing any difficul ty

18 with your sleeping habits?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you describe it?

21 A. Sometimes I can go to bed and I sleep about

22 two or three hours, then I wake up and I do n't

23 go back to sleep.

24 Q. How frequently does that occur?


Page 275

1 A. It's almost every day.

2 Q. Are you saying that you only sleep two to

3 three hours a day?

4 A. Most of the time, but when I go fishing, whe n

5 I come back, I sleep well.

6 Q. Have you -- have you attempted to get any

7 medical treatment for this sleeping disorder ?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why not?

10 A. I don't know why.

11 Q. Mr. Salim, when is the last time you went t o a

12 doctor for a checkup, a physical checkup?


14 answer.


16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. When is the last time you went to a doctor for

18 treatment of any kind?

19 A. I don't remember, but I went for my ears.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. I don't remember. It was -- my eyes -- I h ad

22 eyes problem and I went for the ears, also,

23 and it was also for my legs.

24 Q. And you don't remember when?


Page 276


2 Q. Do you remember the name of the doctor?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. Was it five or more years ago that you went

5 and saw this doctor?

6 A. Not that much, but long.

7 Q. Where was the doctor located?

8 A. In Zanzibar.

9 Q. What was the doctor's name?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. And did the doctor give you any medical

12 advice?

13 A. For which condition?

14 Q. For any and all of the conditions.


16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: For the ears, they

18 gave me medication.

19 BY MR. SMITH:

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. For my eyes, they gave me glasses and I was

22 given medication, too. For my knees, they did

23 some injection and they took out fluid.



Page 277


2 Q. Do you remember the medication you were give n

3 for your ears?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you take the medication?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. For how long did you take the medication?

8 A. I don't remember for how long, but I never

9 finished the dose.

10 Q. And do you know why you didn't finish the

11 dose?

12 A. When I started feeling better, I left it.

13 Q. So the medication was helping your ear

14 condition?

15 A. I didn't see -- it was pointless for me so I

16 just decided to quit.

17 Q. Well, Mr. Salim, I thought you said that th e

18 medication was helping the condition with y our

19 ears.

20 A. It's not that the pain went away, but it

21 reduced.

22 Q. Okay. So why didn't you keep taking the

23 medication if the pain was reduced?

24 A. I just don't want it.


Page 278

1 Q. And were you given medication with your -- f or

2 your eye condition?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you take that medication?

5 A. Yeah, it was like an ointment and I used it.

6 Q. Did you continue to use it?

7 A. I used a little -- a little of it.

8 Q. Okay. Did you use up the whole prescription ?


10 Q. Are you taking that medication presently?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Why did you stop taking it?

13 A. I just don't want it.

14 Q. Were you given medication for your knees?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you take that medication?

17 A. A little.

18 Q. Why did you stop?

19 A. I just didn't want it.

20 Q. Was the medication helping the condition of

21 your knees?

22 A. It did not help.

23 Q. Well, do you think if you would have kept

24 taking it that it may have helped?


Page 279


2 answer.

3 THE WITNESS: It can't help me.

4 BY MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Did the doctor tell you to stop taking the

6 medication or was that your decision?


8 answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Myself.

10 BY MR. SMITH:

11 Q. Did the doctor want you to continue taking the

12 medication?


14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: I didn't go to the

16 doctor.

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. Who gave you the medication for your knees?

19 A. Doctor.

20 Q. A doctor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember the doctor's name?


24 THE WITNESS: I don't.


Page 280

1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. Do you remember any of the doctors' names wh o

3 gave you any treatment that you've described

4 here today?


6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 BY MR. SMITH:

9 Q. So that I understand, the doctor who treated

10 you for your knees recommended to you to ta ke

11 medication, but you decided not to take it, is

12 that right?


14 answer.


16 BY MR. SMITH:

17 Q. Do you have any memory of any of the

18 discussions you had with Dr. Crosby?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. Do you have any memory of any of the

21 discussions you had with Dr. Nyanyuki? Tha t's

22 N-Y-A-N-Y-U-K-I.

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Object, but you can

24 answer.


Page 281

1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I

2 don't remember.

3 BY MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Were you ever treated by a doctor from

5 Nairobi?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember the doctor's name?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is the doctor's name?

10 A. I remember her name was Dinah.

11 Q. Dinah. Was that her first name or her last

12 name?

13 A. I don't know whether it was the first name,

14 last name, I don't know.

15 Q. Okay. And how did you get to Dr. Dinah?

16 A. She was brought by Dr. Sondra.

17 Q. Okay. And for what conditions were you

18 treated for by Dr. Dinah?

19 A. Mostly about the flashback and my weakness.

20 Q. How many times did you see Dr. Dinah?



23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did Dr. Dinah prescribe any medications ?


Page 282


2 Q. Do you have any memory of any diagnosis that

3 was made by Dr. Dinah about any of your

4 medical conditions?


6 Q. Mr. Salim, do you think you'd be feeling

7 better and getting well if you would take th e

8 medications that the doctors are recommendin g?


10 answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I don't think they

12 would have helped me.

13 BY MR. SMITH:

14 Q. And why do you think that the doctors are

15 prescribing medications for you if you don' t

16 think they're going to help?


18 answer.

19 THE WITNESS: So if the doctor giv e

20 you the medication, you're going to be heal ed?

21 BY MR. SMITH:

22 Q. No. What I'm trying to understand is if yo u

23 go see a doctor and they prescribe medicati on,

24 why is it that you think that what they're


Page 283

1 prescribing isn't going to help you?

2 A. I just know, by myself, that they will not

3 help me.

4 Q. Did you tell any of the doctors that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know a man named Matthew Friedman?


8 Q. Do you know a man named Allen Keller?


10 Q. Did you ever speak with journalists from BB C

11 Radio?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember who you spoke to?

14 A. I don't.

15 Q. Do you remember what you talked about?

16 A. I remember.

17 Q. What did you talk about?

18 A. Yes, I remember.

19 Q. What did you talk about?

20 A. Just the way I was at jail and how things w ere

21 at jail.

22 Q. At which jail?

23 A. All of them.

24 Q. Okay. Who put you in touch with the


Page 284

1 journalists from BBC Radio?

2 A. They came to me.

3 Q. Do you know how they found you?

4 A. They came to my home.

5 Q. Do you know how they found you?


7 answer.


9 BY MR. SMITH:

10 Q. Did you speak with any other journalists ot her

11 than the BBC Radio people and James we've

12 talked about earlier?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who else did you talk to?

15 A. The Germans.

16 Q. Germans?

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. Was that from Radio Deutsche Welle and

19 Panorama in Germany?

20 A. I just knew this, it was German.

21 Q. Who put you in touch with the Germans?

22 A. They just came to me.

23 Q. Okay. Do you know an individual by the nam e

24 of Brock Chisholm?


Page 285

1 A. I know the name Brock, but I don't know

2 Chisholm.

3 Q. And who is this person?

4 A. Dr. Brock.

5 Q. Who is Dr. Brock?

6 A. It's a doctor.

7 Q. Okay. Is Dr. Brock a doctor treating you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what is Dr. Brock treating you for?

10 A. Just like if you are -- you have thoughts o r

11 if you're trying to think of many things, y ou

12 need to do this, things like that.

13 MR. SMITH: Jane, could you repeat

14 the witness's answer.

15 (Whereupon, the answer was read ba ck

16 by the court reporter as requeste d.)

17 BY MR. SMITH:

18 Q. What kind of doctor is Dr. Brock?


20 answer.


22 BY MR. SMITH:

23 Q. When did Dr. Brock start treating you?



Page 286

1 Q. Is Dr. Brock presently treating you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When did the treatment stop?


5 Q. Why did the treatment stop?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Did Dr. Brock prescribe any medications?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Mr. Salim, are you aware that there's a tria l

10 scheduled to take place in this case?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is it your intention to testify in the

13 case?

14 A. How?

15 Q. Well, let's get to how later. Let's just g et

16 to, is it your intention to testify?

17 A. I don't understand. What testimony?

18 MR. SMITH: Let's go off the recor d.



21 (Brief pause.)



24 MR. SMITH: I have no further


Page 287

1 questions of the witness.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Do we have a

3 protocol for signing and time and all that

4 stuff? I assume the usual stipulations.

5 MS. ALEXANDER: No, we didn't have

6 them previously. I mean...

7 MR. SMITH: You guys have been

8 reading and signing, haven't you?

9 MR. WATT: Yeah. We have.

10 (All parties speaking at once.)

11 MR. SMITH: No, but we're not --

12 there's no waiving reading, signing?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: No. No. No.

14 COURT REPORTER: Are we off the

15 record? Are we off the record here?

16 MR. SMITH: Sorry, we're off the

17 record.



20 (End of proceedings: 12:25 p.m.)

21

22

23

24


Page 288

1 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS )

2 SUFFOLK, SS: )

3

4 I, JANE M. BORROWMAN, Registered

5 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in a nd

6 for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, do

7 hereby certify that on March 15, 2017,

8 Suleiman Abdullah Salim, the witness whose

9 deposition is hereinbefore set forth, was du ly

10 sworn by me and that such deposition is a t rue

11 record of the testimony given by the witnes s.

12 I further certify that I am neithe r

13 related to or employed by any of the partie s

14 in or counsel to this action, nor am I

15 financially interested in the action.

16 In witness whereof, I have hereunt o

17 set my hand and seal this 28th day of March

18 2017.

19

20 Notary Public

21 RPR No. 001420

22

23 My commission expires:

24 7 December 2023


Page 289

1 *** ERRATA SHEET *** TRANSPERFECT DEPOSITION SERVICES

2 216 E. 45th Street, Suite #903 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10017

3 (212) 400-8845

4 CASE: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM et al. v. MITC HELL DATE: MARCH 15, 2017

5 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM REF: 18304

6 PAGE LINE FROM TO

7 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

8 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

9 ____|______|______________________|________ ______

10 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

11 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

12 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

13 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

14 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

15 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

16 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

17 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

18 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

19 ____|______|______________________|_______ _______

20 ___________________________

21 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM Subscribed and sworn to before me

22 this ____ day of ____________, 20__.

23 _______________________________

24 Notary Public



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