· .I"

ON RESUMING ON 4th NOVEMBER 1964

at 10 a~m .

ADRIAN LEFTWICH, still under oath:

MR . BEUKES : (CONT . ) Mr. Le£twich, yesterday a£ternoon we came

to the point where you told us about the importation o£ this

case and also about the £unds that were received £rom London

£rom £riends . Who are these friends? - -- A man I knew is

Pete and his wife 'vho is st ill here .

Are these code names? --- Yes, these are code names o

10 I later learnt these people to be a Mr . and Mrs . Behrman .

Mr . and Mrs. Behrman? --- Yes .

What was his christian name? - -- He was referred to as

Monty.

Monty Behrman . Are these the £riends that you talk

about? - - - Yes, I think so . I assume that is so .

You told the Court about all the acts that were done~

can you just tell us about the explosives'? The first explosive With

you say you saw where? ---/Schneider , that is correct~

Where were these explosives kept at that time? --- I

20 understood them to be kept in Schneider ' s £lat in Rondebosch .

And then, what happened then? - - - I am not rGaly sure

what happened a£ter that , I saw them next after Mr . 1fatson

had le£t the organiza~ion . A£ter he left the organization

the explosives were taken , which were then in his position

were taken out o£ his possession and that was when I saw them

next.

They were taken out of? - -- He had kept them somewhere,

I don 1 t know where he kept them, and 've then moved them £rot:l

his house where he brought them to a room in Bow Wood Gardens

30 in Claremont .

Tell UB about this room? --- It was necessary to find

· \

157. A. Leftwich.

somewhere to keep these explosives and I took out a room

in Bow Wood Gardens, I think that was the name of the block

of flats, and we kept them there for a short while.

Subsequently Mr. Schneider had a flat in Dorp Street and they

were taken there and subsequently again they were taken to

Miss van der Riet's flat.

Was it always the sace explosives or did you add to it?

No , the only addition was the plastic explosives~

The plastic explosives. This rooo in Bow Wood Gardens,

10 you pointed out to the Police later? --- That is correct.

20

Is it correct that this room is in the servant's

quarters? --- I think that is what it is called, yes.

Do you remember the room number? --- I think it was 9.

No .9. Who hired that room? --- I did.

Under what name did you hire it? --- Phipson.

How did you arrange for any post to reach you or

accounts for the room and things like that? --- I gave an

address of a friend of mine .

Who is this friend? --- A Mr . Mills .

And you collected your post there? --- Well there

wasn't really any post .

Just a couple of letters? Receipts.

Who paid the rent? --- I paid it on a number of

occasions and I think Mr . Daniels paid on one or two

Accused No.1? --- That is correct.

Who had keys to this room? Mr. Vigne had a key, I

had a keyand I think Mr. Daniels had a key.

, Did you have any other places that you hired? --- Yes,

there was a garage off Orange Street, Upper Orange Street.

30 We kept merely work benches and tools there.

'Vhere did this work bench come from? --- This had been

at Mr. Watson's home.

158. A. Leftwich.

What happened to the work bench eventually? That

was moved to Mr. Schneider's flat in Dorp Street, the one I

have referred to.

Is that No.19(a) Dorp Street? --- I think so, yes.

Now, you spoke about code names? --- Yes.

That you people used. Can you tell me what was your

code name?

was Mark.

My code name was initially Harry and then it

And Miss Lynette van der Riet? --- I think it was

10 initially Pat and then Wendy.

20

And accused No.1? --- I think it was first George and

then Aubrey and then Mat .

And accused No.2? --- Eric.

Any other code names that you remember? --- Mr . Vigne's

was initially Albert and subsequently Bill. Mi$ McConkey was

Ann. Mr. Schneider was Jim and then Luke. There was man

called Roy, there was a man called Jacob. Mr. Brooks was

Tony and Miss Kemp was Mary.

HIS LORDSHIP: These people were they all members of NUSAS?

No, Sir.

Were the .ajority of them members of NUSAS? ~. ~ don't

want to go through then all. Was Ruben a member of NUSAS?

He had been, yes.

Schneider? --- I don't know.

You were, Vigne? --- I don't think so, no.

Miss van der Riet? --- No.

MR. BEl~S:(CONT.) Where did you meet all these people?

At various places on various occasions. Do you want me to

explain each person on each occasion?

30 Yes? --- As I explained yesterday I met Mr. Brooks and

Mr. De Keller with Mr. Watson . I met Miss van der Riet and

Mr. Daniels with Mr. Watson. I met Mr. Vigne with Mro watson.

10

159. A. Leftwich .

I met Miss ?4cConkey only fairly recently with loUss van der known as

Riet . I did not meet Jacob , I met this man/Roy on one may

be two occasions with Mr . Schneider .

HIS LORDSHIP : At the stage when you became a member , were

you what in happier company one would call a foundation

member? Were youthere in the beginning of this organization?

- -- As I understand there was at that stage a Regional

Committee .

There was already a Regional Committee? --- Yes .

De Keller , did he become a member before or after you?

I think shortly after .

Shortly after . When you first became a member,

speaking about Cape Town only , how many members were there

then ' that you knew of? - - - I then only knew of Mr . Ruben.

You only knew Ruben? - -- Yes .

And Watson? - -- No, I only met him some tiee later.

So to your knowledge then the nucleus of the thing then

was you and Ruben? --- Well , I gathered from what he indicated

to De that there was a Regional COOI:li ttee and that he ... vas the

20 contaot with myself .

MR . BEUKES1(CONT.) You have already said that you paid

su6scr1ptions, is that correct? - -- That is so .

Did you collect some of the subscriptions or not? ---Yes~·

Who did you collect from? --- From Mr . De Keller , froe -

sometime from Miss van der Riet, sometimes not. I only

colleoted, well I mainly collected subscriptions when I was

in charge of funds and subsequently only those people who I /

was in contact with .

Will you have a look at that book , EXH . E4? What is

30 that? Do you see certain names in there? Do you recognise

names in that book? Yes, these appear to be code names .

Code names of the organization? --- Yes .

160 . A. Leftwich.

And the amounts? Monthly subscriptions .

Look at the back of that book you will see there is a

porjion marked "loans?" Just hand it here I will get it?

Give it here? Do you know anything about those loans? ---

I have not seen this book before , but I think that these were

various amounts which individuals received to obtain and

purchase equipment necessary .

Just speak up to His Lordship . Now , will you have a

look at this document EXH . B 1 , that is the docucent that was

10 found in your flat . Do you know anything abou"G that? ---

Yes , this was given to ce by Mr . Watson.

What is that all about? --- This is an outline of

their procedures for action and activities associated with it,

with the medical procedures and escape.

There is a document EXH . C 1 with a lot of figures on it

will you see whether you know anything about that docucent?

This was given to me by - was shown to me initially by

Mr . Ruben and subsequently given to me by Mr . Vigne to put

in the organization's file .

20 What was the idea of that list? --- As I understood

from him it was a schedule of amounts individual members

were suppose to pay, based on monthly earning .

This document EXH . C 2 South 1fest Africa , March 196 ~ • •

what is that? --- This was a document which ~tt . Vigne gave t

me , it was not directly connected with the organization, it

was one of the surveys of general political situation. This

refers to South West Africa .

(CONT . ON PAGE 161,)

10

161 . A. Leftwich.

When was that - at wh:l.t s t age was that document deelt with

handed to you? About February or March of this year .

Was it before or aft~r you formed the four branches of

your organi sation? ---- It was about the same tim~ I think .

Now C. 3? ---- Mr . Vign0 gave me this document very

shortly before my arres t. I had not read it .

Just to go t it in logical order, you have already given

evidence on C. 5; will you just have a look at it and repeat

what you know about it? ---- This is the A.R . M. pamphlet .

\f.hich you say you and som2 others drew up? - - -- That is

correct .

Now C. 6? ---- Y.~s , this was a personal docum~nt which I

drafted . It was merely - it consisted of some peroonal

thoughts; it was not disCUSSGd at all by any members of the

organisation.

Can you explain to the Court why it was put in your

organisation ' s fil~? ---- Well, it was somethi ng I wanted to

r~f~r to at a later stage and i~ was put ther~ for security

reasons . I didn ' t want to keep it at my flat .

20 And C. 7? - --- I think this is a similar document .

c.8 and C. 9? ---- (Mr . Snitchcr intervenes) .

MR . SNITCHER: My Lord, my learned friend and I ar agreed

that on the basis of the ~videnc0 just given by thu witness,

thes~ documents which he d~scribes as personal documents - his

personal thoughts, do not becom~ admissibl~ as far as my

client is concvrned . I mean, he is not suggesting that he

can tender it on that basis, but apparently I understand he

will make a submission at a later stage on the basis of th

alternative charge . I just want to res~rv0 my right of

30 arguing that at a latur stage, if Your Lordship pl~as0s . I

don ' t want to be consi dered as having tacitly by silunce

allowed the docum8nt to go in .

162 . A. L~ftwich .

HIS LORDSHIP: All right, Mr . Snitcher .

MR . BEUKES: c.8 and C. 9? - --- c.8 is Mr. Vign~ ' s outline of

this • . . (The Court intcrv~n~s) .

HIS LORDSHIP: Offhand I should think that th~ docum~nts of an

organisation become uvidence against its m~mbers whether th~y

saw it or not.

MR. SNITCHER: I will argue the matt~r at a lat0r stagL . I

only want to make it clear that I didn ' t want to be tak~n by

my silunce to have allow~d the document to go in as being ad-

10 missible . Subject to argum~nt, obviously ,

This first document is a copy of the docum~nt

which Mr . Vigne - well, it is th~ documont which Mr . Vigne

gave to me and asked me to make copies of which C. 9 is a copy.

MR . BEUKES: And what did this deal with? --- - This dealt Hith

its political intelligence unit .

C.IO, have you seen that b8for~?

was originally shown to me by Mr . Ruben .

Yes, this document

I returned it to

him or Mr . Vigne and subsequently Mr . Vigne asked me to keep

thiS, but that document was n~v~r us~d as a basis for dis-

20 cussion.

30

C.ll? ---- I havL not seen this before .

Please have a look at C.12, C. 13 and C. 14 . You have

already told the Court that these had to do with th6 timing

devices . Will you explain to the Court the altGrations in

handwriting on some of those? ---- I think thcl handwriting

in pencil is Mr . Higg ' s - that is on C. 13 ; and on C. 14 I

think it is mine .

On what information did you mak the alt rations? - -- I

think it is correction of typing errors rather than t~chnical.

C. 15? ---- ·That is Mr . Higg ' s writing, I think . It is

a simplified pr~cis-0d version of a formula for a circuit.

Now this circuit being? What would you us~ a circuit

163 . A. Ltftwich.

like that for? ---- For thu purposes of setting up an ex-

plosives circuit.

And C.16? ---- That is a formula on the basis of the an

document I ' ve just referred to, relating to electric circuit . A

It is in my handwriting .

C. 17? ---- This is a rough sketch of Robben Island.

Who drew that? - --- I drew it .

For what purpose? ---- At one stage the idea had been

very briefly raised on the Regional Committee, the possibility

10 of getting Mr . Sobukwe off Robben Island . It was never a

really v ery serious proposition and in the course of a

chance encounter with a gentleman who had been on Robben

Island , I made that sketch on that basis .

Where did you get the information from? - - -- As I 've

said, from a pGrson I met, it was a chance encounter and on

the basis of meeting this person and talking with him.

And about the guard you mention on that? ---- I beg

your pardon?

You mention there about the guard who is drunk at the

20 end of the month? ---- This person, this is what h~ in-

dicated .

Now look at C.18? ---- I don ' t think I ' ve seen this

before .

You haven ' t seen that before? ---- No .

Will you have a look at C. 19?--- - Yes, this is my

typing . Wereceived an outline of an escape me thod from

Johannesburg and this is merely a transcript of it .

Will you look at C. 20? ---- Yes, we had discussed on

the Regional Committee I think, problems relating to escape

30 and medical attention and as a result of these discussions

which took place there formally, this was dra~TI up by me and

given to Miss van der Riet who was then in charge of escape .

10

164. A. Leftwich.

Look at C. 21? ---- This document I have not seen before

- t heIRper document . This pi ece of cardboard are rough notes

in my handwriting concerning escape .

Now will you look at C. 25 to C. 35? ---- These are the

documents relating to the importation of the box .

Cor respondence between you and the shippi ng agents? ----

Yes .

Who signed "Schneider " there on those documents? ---- I

did .

Why did you sign "Schneider "? ---- We l l , it was agreed

that the box should be consigned to Mr . Schneider - the name

Schneider and since I was given the job of handling the

correspondence , I signed .

I n otice that somet i mes it is S . Schne i der and some-

times R. Schneider? ---- Yes, I thi nk that is •• • • (Mr .

Beukes intervenes) .

Just as it came? --- - Yes , a mistake, yes .

Will you look at EXHIBITIS C. 36 and C. 37? ---- Yes,

before the last set of jobs , we were concerned about the

20 a c curacy of electrical data which we had and as a result of

discussions on the planning committee I undert ook to in-

vestigat e and this is the formula which I arrived at .

C. 38? ---- I think these were notes made during the

course of planning commi ttee discussions .

Do you know who made them? ---- Mine .

Those are also

Does that have

any significance - on the back? ---- I am not sure if these

are my scri bbles or other people ' s . I don ' t know but again

165 . A. Leftwi ch .

I think these were meant to represent legs of pylons and

angles at which these should be at t acked .

Please look at C. 44 , C. 45, C.48 and C. 49? ----I don't

think I 've seen these before .

You don ' t think you ' ve seen them before? ---- I don ' t

think so. It is possible that these were amongst the

documents Mr . Schneider brought to the planning committee

meetings but I am not certain about that .

C. 57? ---- This is brief notes on problems encountered

10 possible problems encountered by persons detained under

conditions of solitary confinement .

Who drew that up? ---- I typed this ou t as a result of

information and discussions with various people .

HIS LORDSHIP: It is a case of being easier to advise than

anythi ng else . You didn ' t do so well, did you?

MR . BEUKES: Will you look at these maps C. 59 , C. 60, C. 61,

C. 61(a), C. 62, C. 63 , C. 64? ---- I cannot positively identify

them but they seem similar to some of the documents which

Mr . Schneider brought to the planning committee meetings . I

20 am not certain .

Just have a look at C. 65? ---- I don ' t think I 've seen

these before .

Please look at C. 71, C. 75 and C. 76 . They are sketches?

Again I am not certain. These may hav e been amongst

the document s Mr o Schneider brought to the planning Commi ttee

meetings in relation to the last job but I cannot positively

identify them.

Will you look at C.77? ---- I don ' t think I ' ve seen

theso before .

30 Will you look at C. 84? ---- I am not sure . I don ' t

think so . I don ' t think I 've seen i t before .

Will you look at Co87? ---- I thi nk these refer to thG

166 . A. Leftwich.

last three jobs but again I am not certain whether I have

seen them or not . It is possible .

c . 88 . Whose handwriting is that? ---- I think it is

Mr . Daniels '.

And what does it refer to? ---- Before Mr . Watson left

the organisation he had prepared or he had taken the lead in

the preparation of an attack on upright supports supporting

the electr i c cabl es on the Peninsula railway line . He in-

structed us to condu ct various ' recces ' of the spots and he

10 also instructed us to draw up our v i ew as to how the project

should be undertaken . I drew up one which I subsequently

des t royed _ I thi nk this is the one that Mr . Watson instruct-

ed Mr . Daniels to draw up . After Mr . Watson left tho

organisation we were unhappy about this job and we abandoned

it . ~

Continued on page 167

A. Leftwich.

MR. BEUKES: My Lord, just for the record, the typed one

is one that we made. I will lead evidence on that, just

for easier reading. Mr. Leftwich, will you look at

EXHIBIT C 827 --- I dontt think I have seen this document

before, but I think it refers to a project we considered and

then rejected. The idea had come up from the Planning

Committee, I think it may have been my idea, that we attack

the Government garage and we then looked into the prospects

relating to this. I think it is a document concerning the

10 pros and cons of such an attack which Mr. Daniels drew up,

however we were concerned that by damaging the Government

garage people in the vicinity might be hurt and endangered

and we rejected and abandoned it.

MR. GROENEWALD: Was it rejected by the Regional Committee of

or members/the ftella? --- I think the Planning Committee

dropped i t~·

It was referred to you and you rejected it? --- No, no,

I said that the idea had come up from the Planning Committee,

it had then been investigated and on the basis of the investi-

20 gations it had been rejected.

30

MR. BEUICES: (CONT.) Now, EXH. C 907 --- I don't think I have

seen this document before, but it may be a map of the Woodstock

railway area, one of the points we had considered in the

signal cable job had been at Woodstock, and this may have

been a map relating to that, but I do not know.

Do you know who drew that up? --- I don't know for

certain, it may have been }~. Daniels, I don't know.

Have you ~een this map before EXH. C 917 --- No, I

don't think so.

Have a look at ~, what does that re~er to? --- I

don't think I have seen this document before.

C 9J? --- I don f t think I have seen this document before~·

168. A. Leftwich.

No, I don't think I have seen this.

No, I have not seen that before.

These documents refer to pen lights, what are they? ---

It refers to small penlight batteries.

And "oige"?---It refers to detonators.

And how did you describe fuse? --- I don't think there

was a term for a fuse.

And the dynamite sticks? --- Sweets.

- COURT ADJOURNS AT 10.55 a.m .• -

10 ON RESUMING AT 11.17 a.m.

20

ADRIAN LEFTWICH, still under oath:

CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. GIBSON: Mr. Leftwich, tell me something

about your history first of all, how old are you? --- 24.

Where were you at school? --- Sacs in Rondebosch.

Where you presumably matriculated? --- At Rondebosch.

First class? --- Yes.

Then did you go straight away to University? -- - Yes.

Where you had, I understand a fairly distinguished

career, is that correct? --- As you put. it.

Apart from your part-time acitivities. The nature of

this distinguished career, what degrees? --- I have an

Honours degree.

In? --- B.A. Honours degree.

Is that with distinction or anything of that kind?

First c1ass~'

Did you pick up a number of medals and things on the

way? --- No '~

And that B.A. Honours degree, when did you get it?

At the end of last year.

30 At the age of 23, why did it take until 23 to get it?

--- I was two years away from University.

- 1

A. Leftwich.

HIS LORDSHIP: Excuse the ignorance of somebody who didn't

have the privilege of being at the Cape Town University, what

is a B. A. Honours degree?

MR. GIBSON: (CONT.) What is a B. A. Honours degree? It is

a one year ts post -graduate degree after a B. A.

In 1'lhat subject would it be? --- It ,vas in African

Studies.

And just what are the nature of African studies?

Well , this particular course consists in one course on Modern

10 Government , one course in problems of economic development,

one course in - well one paper, these are four different

papers in African Government as it is called, and a specialism

paper on a different region of the world.

Could you speak up please?

HIS LORDSHIP: Your professor was? Professor Simons.

MR. GIBSON: (C0NT.) Did you write a thesis at all? --- No.

During your University career you were also a fairly --celebrated man on the campus, weren't you? Tell me please, ----it is easy enough to answer, you were? --- Yes .

20 Very well . You have a great deal of public speaking?

--- A fair amount, yes$

And you can speak out? Yes .

Well please speak up now? This campus activity, you

were inter alia, I think Chairman or whatever you call it, of

the S . R . C. were you not? --- That is correct.

Chairman , is that the title? President .

President of the S . R.C . For how many years were you .-this? Only about four months.

Was that towards the end of your University career?---

30 Yes .

You also took part in the activities of NUSAS? --- That

is oorreot;

A. Leftwich.

Throughout your University career? Yes ,

And you eventually became President of USAS? That

is correct.

When was that? --- That was in the beginning of 161.

of 1961.

I thought this was a full-time job? That is correct.

The beginning of 1961, but you only got your degree at

the end of last year? --- No , the B.A. degree at the end of

r60 and then two years in NUSAS and then the honours degree.

10 I see. How many years were you President of NUSAS?

Two.

You also did a lot of public speaking generally and -things like debating societies and matters of that kind, did .. -" you notJl --- That is correct.

Did you take part in any other part-tine University

activities? Campus activities? --- The usual run of societies

and clubs on the campus, yes .

The usual run of societies and clubs? --- Yes.

Such as? --- Debating societies, welfare societies.

20 HIS LORDSHIP: I should imagine you didn't play rugby? ---

Yes I did.

MR. GIBSON: (CONT.) Did you take a significant part in

sporting activity at all? --- I played for the University

one of the lower teams in oy first year, yes.

That is rugby, any other sport? --- Yes , I played

squash and climbed.

Climbed. In your Univers ity career have you come

across Ruben perhaps , Neville Ruben? --- Yes I did .

Were you on friendly terms with him? Yes .

30 For how many years? I would say about three, four,

three or four years, yes.

That is up to the time you left University, three years

10

171 . A. Leftwich .

before then . Did you say three or four years before then?

No , I should say I only became personally friendly with

him in my third year and since then .

I assume you are still a friend of his? - - - I haven't

seen him for nearly a year .

For nearly a year . Have you been incorrespondence with

him at all? - -- Not sub&antia11y, no .

In other words you have been? --- I have been in

correspondence, yes .

About what? --- Personal things generally , and things

which interested us mutually .

Suoh as politics? - -- His wife , his faoi1y , not that

his wife interested me. Where he had been , what he was dOing ,

what he was thinking about and so forth .

What was he thinking about? - -- He was thinking about

what he was going to do .

Yes , but what was he going to do? He wasn ' t sure,

he was thinking of going to the United States, he was thinking

of staying in Britain, he was thinking of returning to

20 South Africa .

You never discussed in this correspondence political

matters at all? --- Not directly, no .

Did you meet any other persons who had been mentioned

in this oase at the University , did you meet Schneider for

example? - -- I never met him until after I oet him in this

organization .

What about De Keller? - - - Yes I did .

You knew hiD up thero? --- Yes .

This is before you were involved in this organization?

30 --- I Dot hie personally, I would say towards the end of 162 ,

I think sooewhere round there .

The end of 1962? - -- I had met hie before but not in a

172 . A. Leftwich .

personal oapacity .

I don ' t suppose you oame across Vigne up there, did

you? --- No , not at the University .

But you knew him , I take it fairly well? I knew him ,

but not intimately .

For how many years have you know him? Two , three

years I should say .

As from today? As from today .

Two or three years as from today . Now , tell me some -

10 thing about Ruben . I am interested in Ruben first . What

20

- , sort of person is Ruben? - - - I would say he was a high~y

intelligent person, , -----------~

A strong personality? --- It depends what you mean by

strong.

What would you call his porsona1i~? - -- I would -describe him as eager • ..-----

Eager? --- Yes .

He was very active politically all around, wasntt he?

A very sioilar sort of background to your o,m , Pr sident

~~,-----------------------------------------------------o£NUSAS, President of the S . R . C. He was very active? - - - Yes , -I think you are righ~ ~--------

Also have you any idea what sort of degrees he had?

He had a legal degree , a L . L . B. B. A. L . L . B.

Do you know if he had any distinctions? I don t t know.

Where is he now? --- I understand he is in England .

He is in England? --- Yes .

Now coming to Vi~ne, could you tell us something about ,-

Vigne ' s personality? What sort of chap is he? --- I have a -Very high regard for him? It doesn ' t necessarily

explain what sort of man he w'as? Wba t sort of man would he

173. A. Leftwich.

have been? 1vell, I would say that he was a person with b

ideals, a person who was influential in his ideals. Yes, I +

think that is offhand what I would say.

-----------------------------~------------.. + - What sort of ideals? --- Political ideals. rllien you say you have a high regard for hie, it was

mainly beoause of these ideals then, and because of his abili-

'by to influence people? --- Yes, and that he was a pleasant whom

person,/ I could get on with.

What vas the nature of these political ideals? --- Well,

10 we sha red certain politicaL ideals in common. I think we

share a basio loathing and distaste for apartheid.

Yes, loathing and distaste for apartheid, by which

you mean - do you mean the policies of the present Govornment?

No, that does not only constitute ~artheid.

Very well, do you mean the policies of the opposition

as well? --- Yes.

Which do you lump -together as amounting to apartheid?

--- I think there are similarities, yes,

In other words you lump them together as amounting to

20 apartheid? No, I didn't say that, I don't think.

rlliat do you mean? --- I mean that the system of apart-

heid as we today know it basically is based on a somewhat

more - as I see it - a morpheus system, which ",as not called

upon, whioh the previous Government followed and ''''hich this

Government has , crystalised into a more rigid system which

is now known as apartheid.

So you shared those views with Vigne? Pardon?

You shared those views with Vigne? --- Yes, I think so,

I don't know whether he ,,,,ould specifically agree, but

30 genera]:y yes.

And you shared them, no doubt, with Ruben as well?--Yes.

With watson? --- Thus far probably yes~ other ideas he

10

174 . A. Leftwich .

had I do not ~

Now tell me, do you still share these views with Vigne

& Company? --- Yes I do .

You haven ' t changed your views at all as a result of

your incarceration? - - - No, not at all .

Not at all . Did you use the word a loathsome regim~ ,

or W'as I mistaken? No , I think I said ••• (interrupted)

Distasteful , was it? You had a basic loathing and

distaSD for apartheid? Yes .

And you still have? --- Yes .

Tell me something about Watson . What sort of man was

he? --- He was a very plausible person , he was , at the same ---time I believe an unpleasant person in personal relations , but at the same time a dominating as opposed to domineering

personality .

A dom~ating person watson was? Yes .

So W'us Vigne? - - - In a different way .

But still dominating? --- Yes .

Now, shall I ask YOt perhaps about yourself . What

20 sort of personality have you got? --- (His Lor dship intervene~

HIS LORDSHIP : Oh it may be difficult .

~ffi . GIBSON : My Lord , I am asking him to see himself as he

sees him~f , not as I see him or Your Lordship sees him .

HIS LORDSHIP : Fancy asking me that question .

MR . GIBSON: (CONT . ) You are a dominating personality , let ' s

put it that way? --- Do you think so?

I am putting it to you , I am suggesting to you that

you are? --- No , I don ' t think so .

You don ' t think so? - - - No .

JO Tel l me , you have reached the position of fair authority

in two organ i zations which you have mentioned , the S.R . C. and

NUSAS? --- Yes .

175. A. Leftwich.

You are fairly used to influencing people towards ...

your point of view? --- Yes.

So would you sa n that you had a personality which

was able to influence people? --- Possibly yes. - --You are also a first class public speaker, whether on the committee level or ill public? --- I wouldn't call mysolf

a first class speaker, I am used to speaking.

You are used to speaking. Let's say you are a good

pub1io speaker? --- If you wish it, yes.

10 on't let's be bashful, Mr. Leftwich, this is an

important trial. You know something about accused No.1 in

this caso, Eddie Daniels? --- Yes.

You have known him for some years? How long have you

known him? --- Intimately for two years.

You know his background is totally different from yours

and from the other persons that we have mentioned? Yes.

You know that he made Std. 6 and no further? I

think so, yes.

You know that he was in affect a manual labourer?

20 Before he became a photographer, letts take it up to there?

Yes, he had told me so.

A spare hand on the trawlers? Yes.

To go down to the Antarctic with the whalers? Yes.

Entirely different background, you grant cc? No

experience of University campus activity, debating society

and that kind of thing? Not a good public speaker? --- I

have heard hie give some good speeches, yes.

You have heard hie give some but on the rule - as a ru10

he doesntt express himself well? --- I have never failed to

30 understand hint

You've understood. You wou1dn t t however call him a

persuasive and influencing person on the level of Randolph

176. A. Lefh·,rich.

Vigne, Neville Ruben or Watson, would you? --- No. .. -

You will also agree with ne that as far as the matter

in dispute or in issue in this present case, he had no

expert knowledge of such ~atters as explosives? Do I

understand you to say yes he had no suoh knowledge? Yes,

that is correct.

No knowledge of teohnioal matters of electricity or

of anything of that kind? --- That is correct.

What about this sort of ideological discussions that

10 you, Vigne, Ruben and people of this kind might have had, all

20

about aoademic socialism and this kind of thing? I take it

he would have been completely out of any such disoussion?

--- No, I don't think so, I recall a discussion with him on

that very topic in which he made as I considered a fairly

sound point.

Fairly sound points, on purely aoademic issues?

Well, these things are not academic, purely academic, they

have relevance to us, our society.

Do you understand the term dia1ectable materialism?

Not terribly well, no.

I am sure that Daniels wouldn't understand such a term

either? --- (His Lordship intervenes)

HIS LORDSHIP: That makes two of us. Daniels and I. and I

I think Daniels/might probably understand quite a lot of

other things, but dialectical materialism, it almost seems

like a contradiction in terms to me. Anyway, the witness

says he knows what it means.

You do, do you? --- I say I don't really knmv, My Lord;

not very well.

30 ~ffi. GIBSON: (CONT.) You don't really know? --- No.

Isn't that one of the sort of things that socialist

bodies discuss? --- I am told so, yes.

177 .

You are told so? --- Yes .

You don I t kno,~ so? --- No .

A. Le:ft1~ich.

You never discussed issues o:f that kind with anybody?

Are you re:ferring to dialectical materialism speci:fically?

Yes ."--- I don ' t recall any speci:fic conversation on

that, no ~ not on dialaXical materialism .

What sort o:f thing would you have discussed with

people like Vigne and Ruben & Company on this sort o:f

socialist level, the creation o:f a socialist state or what

10 have you , what would you have disoussed? --- I imagine we

would have disoussed questions o:f the nature o:f the present

power struoture in South Africa, the system o:f Government,

the reasons for it , the underlying foroes and pressures

and an alternative system or systems which one would have

wished .

Suoh as? - - - Are you asking me to give you a name

for a system?

Yes? --- Democratic system.

Yes what else? --- Well, a deuocratic system to me

20 implies a system which is politioally democratic and

involves , depending on the society , a form or various forms

of eoonomic democracy .

Could you expand , what do you cean by economic

demooraoy? The same as dial~ical materialism , I don 1t

understand? (His Lordship intervene~

HIS LORDSHIP: Am I needed in this disoussion, it has got

nothing to do with me?

MR . GIBSON: Yeo, My Lord, in my submission it has indeed .

HIS LORDSHIP: All right . Anyway , you have to explain now .

I mean more equitable distribution of wealth, as the

phrase goes .

A more equitable distribution o:f wealth . Coming to

.. .. 178. A. Leftwich.

this organization itself, the so-called National Committee

of Liberation, you joined this organization, so you have

told us towards the end of '627 --- The middle of '62.

The middle of '62, You were brought into this thing

through Ruben? --- That is correct.

Now , what precisely did Ruben tell you about this

organization? You said that you would have to join, I

remember, he told you that you liould have to join before

you would know the full details of it, but what did he tell

10 you? --- I don't recall the conversation very 'vell, but the

gist of it was that he asked me if I was interested in

something more active, as I recall the phrase, I asked him

lvhat and he indicated or I gathered, I should say t that it

concerned sabotage and he said once I had joined I could

know more, and he said that I could consider the matter,

he would then refer it to the Regional Committee or I think

he reforred to the name Albert which was Mr . Vigne's earlier

code name.' That basica:J.ly was the discussion . Then

naturally he said, he indicated that one should adopt

20 security precautions.

Was that sufficient to persuade you to join the

organi~ation? --- You used the word persuade . I don't think

it was a question of.his persuading me, it was a question

of knowing what he meant or knowing very briefly what he

meant and ac@epting what he said.

I mean that was enough then to make you willing to

join the organi~ation? --- Correct .

I will expre~s my~olf that way . Didn't you perhaps

en~uire what the political outlook of such an organization

30 might be , didn't you en~uire whether perhaps it wa~ communist

oriented or something of this kind? --- I didn't believe that

he would be associated with such an orientation.

179 .. A. Lef:twich.

I see. So you were satisfied then that it had no

co~munist orientation? --- Yes.

And you remainod satisfied throughout all your time

in the organization? --- Well, yes, I was satisfied with the

people with whom I worked with and ,.,ho I knew, subscribed

to broadly the same political ideals as I dOn

And those are not communist? --- No.

You came into the National Committee when Watson left,

was that the position? --- Came onto the Regional Committee~

10 I beg your pardon. Tho Regional Committee when Watson

20

left? --- That is correcte

HIS LOijDSHIP: 'Vlhat is that one question when you said "Yes,

it has nothing to do with communism." Is socialism to be

achieved by forceful acts such as blowing up things? What

is the difference between socialism achieved with dynamite

and communism? I don't want to be told afterwards that I

have got to do with people who are not communists, will

you please tell me the difference, I don't know? ~

don't understand your question.

Don't you? You said you are very much opposed to

communism, so I understood? --- I said I am not a communist.

You are not a communist. Will you tell me the

difference between a communist and a socialist bomb thrower?

-_ .... I did not say I don't think that I '·las a socialist

bomb thrower.

I understood you were saying this? --- I don!t think

I said that.

Will you clear it up? I understood that among other

things you were hoping to achieve a more socialistic •• ? ---

30 Yes, yes, that is correct.

Economically speaking you are socialistically inclined?

That is oorrect.

Collection Number: AD1901

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Records 1958-1978

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