Doc. ISCO/11/07

Minutes of the workshop on the data collection of occupational data22 November 2011 – Luxembourg

Agenda point

Presentation Opinions Conclusions

1 Introduction

A. Baigorri opened the workshop, informing the workshop delegates of the ongoing reorganisation, where the classifications section will be transferred to the new unit B5, with reference databases and meta data as core activities, and with A. Götzfried as head of unit. A. Götzfried chairs the afternoon session of this meeting.

A. Baigorri briefly outlined the agenda points.

Document(s):

Doc. ISCO/11/01 - Agenda

The draft agenda was adopted as presented.

2 First results on occupations by ISCO-08: some quality issues

A. Franco presented the first results on occupations by ISCO-08, with focus on some quality issues.

The first ISCO-08 results were provided by the labour force survey on its first quarter 2011. The ISCO-08 revision was important and although the Major Groups have the same titles as in the ISCO-88 structure, their content has changed. Almost all Major Groups were restructured, with some occupations moving from one Major Group to

D. Hunter felt that some of the differences might be related to inconsistent interpretation of ISCO-88 at national level, hoping that ISCO-08 would give better results than ISCO-88 in terms of mismatch.

Turkey asked, if the correspondence tables are consistent.

A. Franco explained that coding at national level is carried out at lower level, such as by job title, rather than by correspondence tables.

D. Hunter stressed that correspondence tables are intended to be used as one tool, among

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another. Only Major Group 0 - Armed forces remained with the same composition in ISCO-08.

A. Franco presented details, Major Group by Major Group, addressing some differences between ISCO-88 and ISCO-08.

These differences are not necessarily reasons for lack of quality in the implementation of ISCO-08 and many reasons can explain these national differences.

Nevertheless, a deeper analysis should be conducted and this is one of the tasks foreseen in the framework of the European Socio-economic Classification ESSnet. Document(s):

Doc. ISCO/11/02 - First results on occupations by ISCO-08: some quality issues

PowerPoint presentation - First results on occupations by ISCO-08

others, to help assign coding at national level. Italy informed that some quality checks were

performed by selecting a sample and recoding occupation. The process has shown that mismatching has been reduced with the introduction of ISCO-08.

3 ISCO-08 database

3.1 Presentation of the database

M. Mietzner presented the ISCO-08 database as available on the ISCO site on Circa.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - ISCO-08 forum

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database

3.2 Conclusions from the ISCO-08 discussion forum

M. Mietzner presented the conclusions from the ISCO-08 discussion forum, as summarised in document ISCO/11/02.

The discussion forum in CIRCA was established in December 2008, and since September 2009 there have been 88 topics with a total of 234 individual postings recorded in the forum.

Based on the synthesis in document ISCO/11/03 transform these discussions into guidance for interpretation of ISCO-08.

The synthesis document distinguishes between:

1) Issues that have been concluded by the ILO in the Circa discussion forum.

2) Issues for which there are comments, but no conclusion by the ILO in the Circa discussion forum.

3) Issues for which no reactions are recorded in the Circa discussion forum.

Document ISCO/11/03 has been sent out for consultation in October-November 2011 and in the meantime the results of the consultation have been analysed.

Eurostat proposes that the delegates of the workshop:

The workshop adopted all conclusions of case 1 - Issues that have been concluded by the ILO, as rulings and agreed to integrate these 50 rulings in a database, linked to the ISCO-08 definitions as part of the definitions.

The proposed solutions for the 5 following questions were adopted as rulings and as rulings will be linked to the ISCO-08 definitions as part of the definitions: Social researcher Therapist; orientation for blind Diplomat foreign affairs official Programmers Quality assurance manager

The head of national accounts service could only be considered in 1213 if responsible for policy.

For laboratory managers the proposed solution (1349) is valid.

People who operate rides such as merry-go rounds and roller coasters in theme parks and fairgrounds should be in 8343, along with ski lift and cable car operators (based on consultation with TEG/ISCO following the meeting).

Medical laboratory scientists should be classified in 2131 only if they are undertaking research. They should be classified in 3212 if the in the national context the term is used for those who perform clinical tests on specimens of bodily fluids and tissues in order to obtain

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1) adopt the conclusions of case 1 - Issues that have been concluded by the ILO as rulings and that these rulings should be integrated in a database and linked to the ISCO-08 definitions as part of the definitions.

2) adopt the proposed conclusions for nine further cases of case types 2 and 3, where is no conclusion by the ILO in the Circa discussion forum or where no reactions are recorded in the Circa discussion forum.

Document(s):

Doc. ISCO/11/02 - Conclusions from the ISCO-08 forum

PowerPoint presentation - Conclusions from the ISCO-08 forum

information about the health of a patient. For the following 15 unsolved questions, the

discussion in the Circa discussion forum continues and the ILO will assist in providing solutions. Agricultural products storage Baker; pastry cook Calligraphist Copywriter Diplomatic courier Engineering manager Environmental occupations Film censor Jurisconsult Member of the election commission Mountain cleaner Street singer and dancer Wine maker

4 Training on occupational classifications

4.1 Czech Republic experience

J. Erhartova gave a presentation on the Czech experience on training on occupational classifications.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - Czech Republic experience

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Presentation Opinions Conclusions

4.2 Italian experience

F. Gallo gave a presentation on the Italian experience on training on occupational classifications.

Document(s):

Doc. ISCO/11/04 - Training on the new occupational classification: The Italian experience

PowerPoint presentation – Italian experience

The ILO acknowledged the efforts allocated to training by Italy but wondered if the direct coding of occupations by interviewers wouldn't increase the interview duration too much.

4.3 EU overview and identification of best practices

A. Franco provided an EU overview and identification of best practices, based on the replies to a survey directed to the EU countries.

At least those who are supposed to code occupations according to this classification should receive the appropriate training. For those Member States which, even if they are not using ISCO-08 directly in their data collection, use a national occupational classification which also has been revised in order to be aligned with the new ISCO, training should be foreseen for the main stakeholders, coding or using occupational data.

The survey addressed the following issues:

Who participated? How long did it take? What material was provided?

Turkey asked where doctors engaged in teaching are classified.

D. Hunter commented that medical doctors, engaged also in teaching, are classified in accordance with their main tasks, which in general would be the tasks of a doctor.

D. Hunter pointed out that a small proportion of occupations cannot normally be coded by the standard coding tools, but require resolution by staff with specialised training.

UK has informed that although they have answered no to the questionnaire, some training was provided.

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Use of Eurostat or ILO websites Keys for the success of a training on occupation Complex areas of ISCO-08 Evaluation of the training

Document(s):

Doc. ISCO/11/05 - Training on occupational classifications

PowerPoint presentation - Training on occupational classifications

5 Sharing best practices

5.1 Correspondence table between ISCO-88 and ISCO-08 using core variables developed by France

L. Meuric presented a correspondence table between ISCO-88 and ISCO-08 using core variables.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - Correspondence table between ISCO-88 and ISCO-08 using core variables

A. Franco asked if there is additional information on how the correspondence table is elaborated and which auxiliary variables are used.

D. Hunter asked for additional details in order to better understand how the auxiliary variables are used.

Germany explained that auxiliary variables are used for applications such as for the LFS and will make those available for the workshop delegates.

After finalizing the prototype, France will make available the program and summary and both will be uploaded in circa

Germany will also make available information on the auxiliary variables used for coding ISCO-08

5.2 Encoding tool developed by Hungary

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M. Záhony presented the encoding tool developed by Hungary.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - Encoding tool - Hungary

D. Hunter stated that centralised coding facilitated an efficient coding operation and afforded better opportunities for quality control than a decentralised option

5.3 Encoding tool developed by Belgium

A. Depoorter presented the encoding tool developed by Belgium.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - Encoding tool - Belgium

5.4 Measuring occupations in the Dutch LFS

S. Westerman and M. Houben presented the use of CASCOT in the Dutch surveys for encoding occupation.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - Measuring occupations in the Dutch LFS

6 Consistency between the directive 2005/26/EC establishing the regulated

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professions in the EU Member States and ISCO-08

A. Brites addressed the Consistency between the directive 2005/26/EC establishing the regulated professions in the EU Member States and ISCO-08.

Directive 2005/36/EC defines regulated professions in EU Member States and this Directive is for non-statistical purposes. In consequence those who have regulated occupations answer to the surveys with the title of the occupations listed in the Directive.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - Consistency between Directive 2005-26-C and ISCO-08

D. Hunter agreed that the definition of occupations for purposes other than the classification and dissemination of data, may present challenges requiring effective communication and negotiation on the part of the custodians of national and international classifications for statistical purposes.

In Germany the national coding system was sufficiently detailed to eliminate problems related to Directives for non-statistical purposes.

As the most of the Member States do not seem to face this problem no EU action will be taken but it is recommended that the designations used in the directive are included in the job titles index in order to facilitate coding.

7 Related projects

7.1 The ESEC project

7.1.1 First results from the kick off meeting of the ESSnet

M. Meron presented the work schedule and the first results from the ESSnet on ESEC as well as a questionnaire which will be sent to the Member States on the use of socio-economic classifications.

Document(s):

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Presentation Opinions Conclusions

PowerPoint presentation - ESeC - First results from the kick off meeting of the ESSnet

7.1.2 Expertise of the basic variables

F. Gallo presented the work package 2 of this ESSnet, covering analysis of the quality of the component variables of ESeC.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - ESeC - ESeC - Expertise of the basic variables

A. Götzfried pointed out that national quality reports need to be explored as a resource.

7.2 European index of occupations

A. Franco presented a proposal for a European index of occupations.

A job titles index is a list of all titles organized in alphabetic order which can be supplemented with the correspondent codes in one or several occupational classifications. These indexes were developed primarily for use in classifying a respondent's occupation during surveys but they can also be used for non-statistical purposes (ex: for taxes, social security, employment agencies).

The job title indexes are comprehensive lists of specific jobs developed over time and should continuously be updated through review of survey responses.

Is a European job title index possible?

Germany welcomed the translation of the index, as a natural step after the translation of the titles and definitions. However, Germany doubts that other sources than those of the ILO should be used. The fact that already within the German language there are job titles that do not mean the same in all German language version is a signal that the situation can be the same between countries in Europe.

France, Netherlands and Italy are also in favour of an European job title index having as a starting point the ILO index

D. Hunter was concerned that any initiative to develop a multi-lingual index or database of occupational titles would need to take account, that the same job title can mean different things within one country and also from one country to

A European job title index will be tested having the ILO index as starting point. Works on developing and testing the index could be carried out by the future ESSnet on data collection for social surveys using multiple modes.

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The results of the project EurOccupations already presented in a previous ISCO Workshop, have shown that job titles are relatively comparable across the EU and, although we can see a big difference in terms of size of the job titles indexes across the EU Member States, these differences are mainly due to the number of synonymous given for the same job title or the existence of male and female versions. Broadly speaking it should be possible to identify a core list of job titles with its synonymous and linguistic versions which could be easily used in all Member States.

The World Database of Occupations (WISCO), which has been designed as part of the EU-FP6 (European Framework Program) EurOccupations project, contains 1.594 distinct occupational titles by now translated in 20 languages. Furthermore, this database contains already the ISCO-08 codes assigned to each job title.

This work is an excellent starting point to develop a more detailed EU index.

Questions to the workshop delegates:

1) Would you be in favour of an EU index of job titles?

2) Any ideas on the elaboration of the database3) Any ideas on the mechanism of maintenance

and adoption of the changes.

Document(s):

Doc. ISCO/11/06 - European index of occupations

another. Sweden is sceptical towards the idea of a

European job title index.

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PowerPoint presentation - European index of occupations

7.3 Data collection for social surveys using multiple modes – implications for data collection on occupations

J. van der Valk from Eurostat unit F2 (Labour market) presented the ESSnet project the data collection for social surveys using multiple modes.

Document(s):

PowerPoint presentation - ESSnet project Multi mode data collection

8 Any other business

ISCO-08 definitions, translations, correspondence tables, implementation guide etc.

D. Hunter reported on the state of the art of translations, indexes etc.

The ISCO-08 definitions are released and the ISCO-08 publication will be published in the near future. Changes since the July 2009 version are marked in a tracked changes version available from the ILO.

The ISCO-08 database will be updated to reflect the changes made in the MS Word version of the

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text.

The English version of the index needs to be proof read in order to verify the accuracy of the codes and further developed to ensure an appropriate level of completeness

A translation into French will be produce in the near future, and validation will be requested occupation classification experts from French speaking countries like France, Belgium, Switzerland, Canada and Senegal.

An official Spanish translation of ISCO-08 will be developed using the material prepared by INE Spain and by several Latin American countries as a starting point.

As for the index, the ILO will try to use the Belgian, Swiss and French versions as a starting point. A similar procedure will be applied for Spanish.

Translations into Arabic and Russian are envisaged.

An ISCO-08 implementation guide is still proposed, subject to resource availability.

With no additional points on the agenda A. Götzfried closed an overall fruitful and productive meeting, pointing out that this workshop was the last one in this format.

Future meeting will be held in the format of a Classifications Working Group that in addition to NACE and CPA also will include issues related to

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other classifications, such as ISCO, ISCED and COICOP.

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EUROPEAN COMMISSIONEUROSTAT

Directorate BUnit B1: Quality; Classifications

AGENDA

WORKSHOP ON THE DATA COLLECTION OF OCCUPATIONAL DATA

Luxembourg – Ampère22 November 2011

09.30 Meeting starts1. Introduction and adoption of the agenda

2. First results on occupations by ISCO-08: some quality issues

3. ISCO-08 database3.1.Short presentation of the database3.2.Conclusions from the ISCO-08 forum

4. Training on occupational classifications4.1.Czech republic experience4.2. Italian experience4.3.EU overview and identification of best practices

5. Sharing best practices5.1.Correspondence table between ISCO-88 and ISCO-08 using core variables

developed by France5.2.Encoding tool developed by Hungary5.3.Encoding tool developed by Belgium5.4.Measuring occupations in the Dutch LFS

6. Consistency between the directive 2005/26/EC establishing the regulated professions in the EU Member States and ISCO-08

7. Related projects7.1.The ESEC project : First results from the kick off meeting of the ESSnet7.2.An European index of occupations7.3.Data collection for social surveys using multiple modes – implications for data

collection on occupations

8. Any other business

17.30 End of the meeting

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Last update: 22/11/2011 (by Susanne Binder)

List of participants / Liste de participants / TeilnehmerlisteISCO WORSKSHOP MEETING – 22 November 2011

Luxembourg, EUROSTAT salle BECH/Ampère

Participant1. AT Ms. Margaretha ZELLER2. BE Ms. Ann DEPOORTER3. BG Ms. Galya STATEVA 4. CY Ms. Andri CHRISTOUDIA5. CZ Ms. Jitka ERHARTOVA6. DE Mr. Hartmut MINKEL7. ES Mr. Julio NUNEZ8. DK Ms. Kia DITLEVSEN9. Mr. Steen BIELEFELDT

PEDERSEN10. EE Mr. Mihkel REISPASS11. FI Ms. Anne VÄÄNÄNEN12. Ms. Airi PAJUNEN13. FR Mr. Louis MEURIC14. Ms. Monique MERON15. Mr. Michel AMAR16. HU Ms. Márta ZÁHONY17. Ms. Erika CSABA18. IT Ms. Francesca GALLO19. LT Ms. Violeta

SKAMAROCIENE20. Ms. Danguole

ANDRIUSKEVICIENE21. LU Mr. Marco SCHOCKMEL22. LV Ms. Zaiga PRIEDE23. NL Ms. Sue WESTERMAN24. Mr. Marc HOUBEN25. PL Ms. Ewelina KODAN26. PT Ms. Arminda BRITES27. RO Mr. Mihai STEFAN28. SE Mr. Leif HALDORSON29. Ms. Mariette THELL30. Ms. Susanne GULLBERG

ParticipantBRÄNNSTRÖM

31. SI Ms. Suzana KASNIK32. Ms. Kaja MALESIC33. SK Ms. Marta MRAVCOVÁ34. UK Ms. Lindsay PROSSER35. CH Mr. Urs MEIER36. IS Mr. Lárus BLÖNDAL37. NO Ms. Marit Getz WOLD

38. HRCroatia

Ms. Martina LISICIC

39. Ms. Zaklina CIZMOVIC40. RS

SerbiaMs. Selena MARKOVIC

41. TRTurkey

Mr. Ilhami MINTEMUR

42. Kosovo under UNSCR 1244/99

Ms. Bedrije DEMAJ

43. ILO Mr. David HUNTER

Eurostat B-1

Mr. Antonio BAIGORRI Ms. Ana FRANCOMr. Michael MIETZNER

EurostatB-6 Mr. August GÖTZFRIED

Eurostat

Eurostat

Eurostat

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