maharat sara hurwitz- can women be rabbis

8/14/2019 Maharat Sara Hurwitz- Can Women Be Rabbis

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Tonight (November 2, 2009) TEIQU invited Maharat Sara Hurwitz to speak at Stern

College for Women. She did so. To her credit, she is a sincere lady and I believe her

intentions are earnest and meant for the good. I would like to remind you that thetranscription below is not always verbatim. I do make use of paraphrase or leave words

out when I can't get them all down. This means you cannot point to specific phraseology/

words and darshan her points from there. Also, she stated many times that this was in noway a whole in-depth discussion of all the halakhic viewpoints on this topic but rather, a

mere introduction. The concepts written here are, to the best of my ability, accurate. Any

and all mistakes are, as always, mine.I want you to form your own opinion so myopinion will be in the comments, not as part of the speech.

~

First come the sources:

I have structured this speech in a Maharat and Audience format. Where I have written

'Answers' I refer to audience participation.

Maharat: Its really a tremendous energy in the room so I am thrilled to be here. This isdefinitely on the later side for me especially since my kids woke up at 5 AM this morning

so you have to keep me awake which Im sure you wont have a problem. I wanted to just

start off with a question. I know the model is supposed to be half an hour of me speaking

and then opening up a conversation. I think the whole topic does not warrant that itshould be frontal and me just speaking. And in that vein, I want to just throw out a basic

question- I want to figure out from a halakhic point of view- is it possible for women to

be in positions of rabbi. Were going to talk about that and in that conversation weregoing to talk about issues of title and other social and ___ conversation that come up with

issues of women in the rabbinate. And then Ill talk about my own personal journey andhow I got to where I am today and where were going to go from here.

First question is generally: What does a rabbi do? Just throw out the roles and functions

that a rabbi does.

Answers: Psak, ritual leadership, communal counseling.

Maharat: Spiritual leader of the community, which means teaching, counseling.

Answers: Officiating at weddings.

Maharat: Yes, bar/bat mitzvahs, weddings, life-cycle events, etc.

Answers: Sermon.

Maharat: Sermons, speaking from the pulpit, being a role model essentially, speaking to

community on relevant topics.
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Answers: Transmits the mesorah of the Torah.

Maharat: Yes, which really means what?

Answers: Teaching.

Answers: Social activism.

Maharat: Which really is along the lines of being a role model for the community andfunctioning as someone who is trying to advocate for tikkun and goodness and every

aspect of that word. Okay, I think we have hit all the main aspects so lets break it down:

which of those aspects can a woman perform; which can they not? We essentially said

teaching, psak, being learned, life cycle eventsof those roles, what can a womanperform? What can she not perform?

Answers: She cant be a posek.

Maharat: Okay. Why?

Answers: She cant posek because theres a Gemara in Sanhedrin where based on

Devorah a woman cannot posek.

Maharat: Okay, so were going to analyze that.

Answers: I think she can do all of that with the possible exception of weddings. She

cannot be an eid (witness) at a wedding, maybe not say sheva berachot. Lets assume fora second that a mesader kiddushin is someone who sanctifies their relationship and the

specific brachot under the chuppah are often not said under the chuppah. With that in

mind, can a woman do a wedding?

Answers: Yes

Answers: Issue of people being able to relate to a woman, because for her a lot of things

are not metzuveh voseh?

Maharat: Also something were going to develop tonight- can women bring somethingunique to the table?

Answers: Since we are not commanded in mitzvoth asei shehazeman grama, we cannotmotzi other people.

Maharat: Okay, so lets say there are mitzvoth bound by time and so there are differentlevels of functioning. Women have accepted certain roles

Chana: Theres the whole issue about serara. (I was thinking ofthis.)
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Maharat: Do you want to say another word about that?

Chana: I could go on for an hour but I assume you could answer

Maharat: Its a term having to do with the understanding of meaning of semikha. For the

past thousand years the whole idea of semikha has shifted away from the serara modelwhich implies having an ability to bestow- eidut in a much more formal sense- eidut not

in just being a witness at a wedding but functioning as a witness to make things happen.

Not such a clear explanation but we can get into a little bit more.

Answers: Not quite sure that this is serara but I remember there is an issue with a woman

being under being in a position of authority over a man.

Maharat: Kavod HaTzibur, maybe a little bit more?

Answers: Not black and white, but maybe the issue of tzniut?

Maharat: Yes, modesty is something that we do have to deal with. There is idea that

women are not supposed to be in certain leadership communities.

Answers: Rav Soloveitchik had a thing about women speaking from the bimah

specifically and being against that.

Maharat: Just to be clear about that, hes talking about women speaking from the bimah

in the mens section specifically. I sort of live in this little bubble at HIR where the

Bimah is in the center of the room and elevated- pulpit is not really in mens section orwomens section but is elevated.

Answers: I think Rambam paskens doraita that a woman cant be a king

Maharat: Okay, so leadership. Women in positions of leadership- conversation we

definitely have to have.

Answers: Leading prayer.

Maharat: We actually didnt mention that as a function of the rabbi. The reason why isbecause most rabbis dont actually lead tefillah. HIR is the exception where Rabbi Weiss

actually leads prayer a lot but you dont have to as part of your semikha pass a test to lead

prayer. Its actually different in the Conservative and Reform community because theidea is that rabbis dont go out to the _____ community so the rabbi needs to know how

to do everything. Not true in Orthodox communities usually there is an Orthodox ___

there to lead tefilah and torah reading. So it is true that a woman cannot lead services inthe Orthodox community but most Orthodox rabbis do not so lets pass out sources-

these sources are not meant to delve into these issues in a very deep way but to just

discuss the issue. Basically brought down two different sources- one very anti the

womens movement and one in support of it just to say that there are two different


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viewpoints in the Orthodox community.

Okay, so the first section is a overview of some of the functions that a rabbi performs; wetouched on most of them. I want to look at the second section. The first one is being a

scholar and then disseminating that knowledge. The first question is Talmud Torah.

Nobody really mentioned this as a quality that a rabbi has to have because it is intuitive,taken for granted that in order to be a rabbi theres a certain amount of scholarship. And

its kind of nice that nobody mentioned, on the womens side, that there is a question

about women accessing texts. And if we were in a different place or time that would be avery relevant question. But thank God we are in a place like this where women have the

same access to texts as women. So were not really going to have this conversation; we

do take it for granted now that women have access. I am really indebted to the institutions

that helped to ___ my education like Drisha and Midreshet Lindenbaum. But it used to beof course that women were not allowed to learn Torah. It was called tiflut and even if

women did study it was frowned upon.

So Rambam is just one of many examples that say that womens scholarship was veryfrowned upon. But we have countless examples in the Gemara of women who were

scholars and did spend much of their time studying. My favorite example is Bruriah whostudied 300 laws and from three hundred teachers in one day. She was a scholar; the

knowledge would just sink in. Yalta is one of my favorite females to look at. But we do

have examples both in the Gemara and throughout the ages of women who did have

access to texts, taught either by their fathers or secretly or self-taught, women who hadthe ability and were given the gift of study and could use that in certain ways.

Answers: But theres still the question in modern-day that womens scholarship is notcontested but what they should study is. Tanakh, etc apply to her but random esoteric

halakhot like nezek; should a woman study that?

Maharat: Well, what does a rabbi study to become a rabbi?

Answers: Kashrut, Yoreh Deah, and ______.

Maharat: What about those should a woman not know; indeed women should know all

of that! There is a conversation to be had but even on the other side of the coin- you used

to have a mimetic tradition where knowledge was passed down from generation togeneration, but now that men and women have access to text you dont have to only rely

on that mimetic tradition. We get to enhance that and integrate that with our own personal

knowledge and ability to open up a Shulchan Aruch, a text, etc to understand evolution ofwhat we do today.

Answers: Cant you say that yeridas hadoros is an uncontested idea that yes, we arefurther away from Matan Torah so were a lesser generation- these women were much

closer to Matan Torah than we were so for them to be allowed to delve in on those levels?


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Male: Can I- I dont think yeridas hadoros is an uncontested idea, first of all. Norman

Lamm, our good old Chancellor, devotes an entire book called Torah UMadda talking

about why yeridas hadoros is an uncontested idea.

Answers: He speaks about it in a particular realm, though.

Maharat: Whoa, guys, lets keep it respectful- we havent even gotten to the good stuff

yet, people.

Male: I think that if you want to extend that argument to womens scholarship you have

to do the same to men- you have to question pesak Halakha in general- if you want to

give men the ability to make pesak. Why cant we place the same confidence in women

as we give to men?

Maharat: I was going to say something slightly similar- we were able to identify women

who had access to texts and were scholars in their own right.

Male: Why wasnt it done till the 21st century?

Maharat: I think it was done- just different time, different place- we are living in a

different world; we have a room filled with men and women learning together. This is a

time where Bais Yaakov when it started was the most controversial entity ever- the idea

of starting a school to formally educate girls was crazy and they thought lightning wouldstrike and that was one of the most evolutionary steps further in women; scholarship.

Chana: I want to talk about selective quoting. It seems to me that you have chosen to talkabout Beruriah only within one context of her learning 300 halakhot from 300 people.

But if you look at the Gemara, shes the one with al tarbeh sicha im haisha and says the

way to Lod is-

Maharat: Thats Yalta.

Chana: (I know she's wrong, becauseI know the Gemara.It's Eruvin 53b.I don't take

well to being corrected when I'm right.) I learned it was Beruriah. In any case, aside from

that, you also see that when her halakhot are accepted it is only when a MALE affirms

them as such and says she is right; not in their own right. It seems to me that if you aregoing to cite Beruriah as your model, you have to look at the whole Beruriah and who she

was, not just one quotation.

Maharat: I said at the beginning that were not going to have time and wont have time

to look at every single source- I am trying to be intellectually honest here- were really

just dabbling in each of these sources. It is true we can look at Beruraiah in a largercontext I dont think it limits the idea that we had female scholars who had access to

learning. Anyway, lets move on because it gets better. Women have knowledge; can it

be knowledge they only use for their own personal edification or can it be knowledge that

we pass on to others and can we be a posek? Now, before you jump on me lets talk about
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what it means to be a posek.

Answers: I think theres a difference between a person in a position of leadership givingpesak and someone who is not. If I have a shailah, I can call up my friend, boy or girl,

and they can tell me what the Shulchan Aruch says. Thats different from calling up a

rabbi- one where there is sort of a safek.

Maharat: Lets just use that as a jumping point to distinguish between different flavors

of pesak. I would think of that as intern vs. specialist. There are actually very few peoplewho consider themselves poseks and you have to- in order to be a pesak- you have to be a

real expert in a certain area- and what that requires is not only knowledge of texts, of the

black and white texts, but to have some creative ability to translate the black and white

words into a modern day situation. And so that takes a lot of wisdom, a lot of time, and alot of years of learning. I would argue that most pulpit rabbis in communities dont

consider themselves a posek on that level. I think that many of you do encounter many

rabbeim who do consider themselves poskim because they are in a position of leadership

and have been engaged really in depth in certain areas that puts them in a position thatallows them to integrate halakhic material in a ____ way and allows them to give over

pesak. Pesak is one of those loaded terms. I want to be clear that I dont think there is anyproblem with men or women, if they are knowledgeable in the material, have passed their

tests and have been in a position where others made sure they are responsible for the

material they are to know, there should be no issue of someone being able to answer a

question when someone has a question. I think that most local rabbis turn to their posekthat they rely on to help them maneuver through different situations. I was going to give a

ton of examples of some differences- when youre talking about life-altering experiences

and pesak having to do with fertility and theres a lot of question that really need to beanalyzed even in a group of people, not only one individual to arrive at a meaningful and

viable answer for the given person. Pesak also, just to say one more sentence, is not only

about paskening a shaila. Its about understanding a person, understanding where theshaila is coming from, understanding the nature of the circumstance. I obviously I guess-

I am in a position of answering a lot of niddah shailas- its not the only thing that I

answer- I have to say woman say to me they are so grateful that there is a woman whocan look at their bedika cloths and answer their shailas because they were too

embarrassed to ask a rabbi. In the past I always slipped my bedika cloth underneath my

rabbis door wth an anonymous phone number and waited for an answer. I always

thought that makes no sense because I always have at least five questions- who, what,when, why- in order to arrive at an answer. Important for person not only to know the

material from a halakhic point of view but also to understanding the nature of the

question and what is really going on. Happens to be a niddah shaila a woman came to mewith a question of spotting- we worked through the situation and it turns out she was a

niddah way too often than she needed to be and it came out that she has- had just gone

onto this new birth control and she didnt want to be taking birth control but her husbandwas refusing to have more children and she desperately wanted tohave more children but

really there were deep emotional issues going on. She knocked on my door to ask is it red

or brown but turned to be much broader than that.


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Lets look for 2 seconds at the Halakha and well open it up to a broader conversation.

Lets just emphasize this is not going to be a broad, lengthy conversation of paskening-

just wantedt o bring three sources.

Niddah 50a- if you cannot be an eid, as women cannot, then you cannot be in a position

to judge- of paskening. To judge a situation proficiently. So says the Birkei Yosef, awoman is pasul to judge. He brings the second line from the bottom- that a woman

who is wise and learned is fit to render a ruling- in Sefer HaChinuch says in context that a

kohen is not supposed to enter the Beis Hamikdash if he is inebriated and drunk. Sayingthat if a person is drunk cant be in position of acting of judge. So too, if a woman is

drunk she too, if she is learned and knowledgeable, cannot act as a judge. The implication

of course is that if she is sober, has not had one too many drinks that day, if she is learned

and wise, she can be in a position to offer a pesak. This is the halakhic side of giving apesak so Ill open it up- bring it on.

Answers: You made a distinction between your everyday community rabbi and poskim,

gedolim hador. Do you see a future where women are serving as gedolot, who they willask end-of-life issues etc?

Maharat: The first time I was asked that question I was kind of shocked by the question-

theres such a cement ceiling even in my own world that I couldnt even envision that. I

think the answer is yes. The longer women are in positions of not only scholarship but

leadership, in positions where they are gaining insight and practical application in theseareas I think there are women becoming expert in these areas. Dina Neiman- Rosh Kehila

in KOE, a shul in the Upper West Side, she is in a religious leadership position but I

mention her because she has become very expert in issues relating to end-of-life and ___and has done a tremendous amount of research. She has become someone whom rabbeim

call and ask questions to. I can tell for myself that when I started doing this 7 years ago,

my confidence in being able to answer questions is very different than it is now. Thelonger you are in a position of dealing with questions, you become much more

knowledgeable, etc.

Answers: I have a little different read of that Birkei Yosef. I find it very curious that it

says isha pesula ladun and it does not say isha chachama yachol ldun but it says

lhazaras horaah.

Maharat: This (horaah) is the languge of semikha now- in fact the exact same language

for a man in the position of authority.

Gilah Kletenik: The reason why he changes thatthere are five different gemarot that

discuss the issue of Devorah serving as a judge. Five different Tosfot and three say

women cannot serve as judges but two can and all five rule that women ____ paskenshailot etc. So there is a distinction between serving as a judge on a beit din and as a

poseket Halakha, which is very different.

Maharat: For more on this I would encourage you to read Rabbi Sperbers teshuva- I


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handed it as one of the readings in preparation for this- he talks about the five different

gemaras and breaks it down based on Yerushalmi which is very anti women being in a

position of judging. Read that, too.

Answers: I know your job is very different from being a Yoetzet but I think ____ - took

away the certification after ten years. Where do people get the idea that a woman cant bea posek if its not coming from anywhere? If theres a safek, they have to go ask a rav?

Maharat: Does anyone else have Fiddler on the Roof playing in their head right now?Tradition. We have talked about those women who had access to scholarship- most

women were not in that position so we got used to seeing women in a different kind of

world. Were also talking about a time where women did not lead the house- Rambam

talks about how women did not go to shul until around the 1400s, Im forgetting the exactdates, really interesting as a sidebar- sheasani lo isha was a standard bracha said in

shula nd no one thought to introduce sheasani kirtzono till women started coming to

shul. Different time, different place- women were not out in the public sphere until much

more recently.

Answers: I was just going to say in that vein, how do you deal with the aspect of ____ -women serving as rabbis? You could say there is no minhag about the issue in general.

Maharat: Again, minhag is a loaded word. Minhag is not a simple word to translate-

theres different types of minhag and kinds- its difficult to understand. Minhags arechanging all the time; I can think of not right now- but there are examples of minhagim

that are changing and expanding. Its not that I dont have a tremendous amount of

respect for the mesorah but I dont think that I have stepped too much afar from themesorah in terms of advocating for it and passing it on.

Answers: Before we get into specifics of whether women can give pesak or not, can yougive a general definition of what allows someone to give pesak or is this something to

look up in Shulchan Aruch?

Maharat: Certain number of years of scholarship and intimate knowledge of our

situations and texts. Having ivory tower knowledge is important but I think a certain

number of years on the ground dealing with certain situations- its hard not to think of the

medical world when were talking about this. If somebody who is in research only wouldbe applying their ___ to everyday life. Somebody who has a tremendous amount of

learning and there is a wisdom and opportunity to engage with whats going on in

peoples lives and encountering those questions over and over again and being able totake the knowledge that they know and integrate it into ___ specific situation.

Answers: Just regarding what you said of you dont think you stepped too far- moresocial question- do you have any qualms about the fact that this issue might be divided in

the Modern Orthodox community- those who are pro these innovations in our community

vs. against? Also, there might be something to be said of not separating our Modern

Orthodoxy- if women are accepted as rabbis in our community then they wont daven in


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our shuls and do you think this should play into this at all.

Maharat: I spent a lot of time thinking about and writing about that question andengaging with it. I and women like myself I would never want to think that we are the

cause of any split within our community- I think that the last 2 months has been a real

educational experience for me to show that the walls are still standing and lightning hasnot struck. There was a lot of fear on the day that I received my semikha. A lot of people

were very fearful as to what would happen- would it split the community, inspire people-

there are two responses. Response of the right for the most part is silent. Not a lot ofmedia attention or discussion on the right. After some time there were some articles

written and the blogs that were written- I tend to not spend too much time reading the

blogs- but I think the community to the right has a lot of problems in Modern Orthodox

community on a whole. I think the whole idea of centralizing authority as something todiscuss is a difference between communities more to the right and more to the left- I am

not sure what within the Modern Orthodox community means. From social aspect of

things, change is hard and I do think change is slow and it should be. I always think about

Sally Kuzan was the first woman who was ordained in the Reform movement in 1972.Anyone want to guess when the first woman started to try to become a Rabbi?

Answers: 1950s?

Maharat: 1880- late 18002- 1970s when finally accepted; thats the Reform movement.

Change is happening in the Orthodox community. People are not used to seeing a womanin a position of religious/ spiritual leadership. I guess just from my own personal

experience what I found is that the community just gets used to it and it becomes a

degenderized issue really. You know, I was not the first woman to work as acongregational intern, which was the original term so my community at least was already

used to seeing a woman in a position of teaching, etc but it took 7 years for the

community to become comfortable with my extended role. And NOT everyone in thecommunity is comfortable. I have a co-rabbi; I work side by side with Rabbi ___ler and

for those who are not comfortable, they have a rabbi to go to. End of life issues is a great

example. When I was dreaming with Rabbi Weiss and thinking of an extended role- youknow, I said, no one is going to want me to perform their funerals, weddings? When

someone closes their eyes and thinks about rabbi, they consider a traditional male-

looking rabbi. Especially in those situations where life cycle events of death or mourning,

what I found to my own personal surprise is that people just kind of get used to it. Whatthat means is that what happens in our shul is either one of us will have a particular

relationship with a member and will be the one to do the funeral and ___ the family. Or

the phone will ring and whoever happens to pick up- generally what the rabbi does isdrop everything and go- theres a lot of stuff going on. Theres a lot of halakhic and just

coordination that the rabbi or someone in a spiritual leadership position has to do like

getting the body moved from wherever it is at that point to funeral home, working withfuneral director, figuring out where/when the funeral is going to be, figuring out if a

relative three times removed has to be there for the funeral. What happens is after three,

four, five, six hours of being with this family for this very intense emotional experience I

kind of very humbly say lets begin talking about the actual service. Im happy to be


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there for you and do the funeral for you but if youre not comfortable happy to call Rabbi

Wexler or one of our interns to do the funeral and I would say 9 out of 10 times the

family says, Are you kidding? We wouldnt want to have it every other way. And thatsame family wouldnt have imagined having a woman in that position 10 hours before.

When somebodys there for you in a rabbinic position, it suddenly makes sense that they

should be performing the functions necessary for a rabbi.

I see theres a lot of questions- I do want to spend some time speaking about title as well.

Answers: Tzniut- how that shapes or affects the role of Maharat?

Maharat: Women in positions of leadership and page 4 is relating to issues of modesty.

We mentioned already the famous pasuk and Rambam says melekh and not a malka-and then the Gemara and obvious counterargument to that is what was Devora doing-

refer to Rabbi Sperbers article where he spends a lot of time dissecting her specific role.

Whatever it is, she was in a position of leadership and just go down to Piskei Uziel.

When Israel became a state in 1948, suddenly the state had to deal with this question offemale in positions of leadership. It was a community not used to having women in

positions of any kind of leadership and so he wrote a teshuva for why it would be okayfor a woman to be okay in a position of leadership. Central argument is that a woman is

voted in, accepted and appointed by the community, she can be in a position of

leadership. This is true by the way re: women functioning as presidents of shuls as well. I

could imagine if I asked if any of you have females as presidents maybe one would raiseyour hand. And really, theres no good reason for that! If a woman is appointedjust to

continue on the same thing, modesty. Modesty I find much more difficult to talk about

because again, different time, different place. It used to be that men and women didntmix in any venue, any vein- were talking about a recent conversation where women

were sent to the back of the bus in a different community. However, I think in a modern

community in America the notion of modesty I think has shifted. And again Uziel makesthat same argument- now were used to being in proximity of women, working with

women and now as long as people are not acting in a lighthearted way, there should be no

concern of lack of modesty. Just to draw attention to source 13, one of my favoritephrases cited in a few places in the Gemara, Go and see what the publics doing.

Whats the reality there? Is the reality that women are in public positions- functioning as

lawyers, doctors, functioning in positions of authority elsewhere? Were used to seeing

men and women functioning side by side and working side by side so I think that at leastin our community I dont think this argument of modesty holds so much water now.

Answer: Just a clarification- can you delve into the issue of officiation? It seems fromwhat we have been saying right now- halakhic issue is re: pesak but officiating a wedding

is a formality thing?

Maharat: I function completely as a Rabbi. I do everything. I dont lead services.

Nobody would want me to lead services even if I could. I dont act as an eid so I dont

serve on a Beis Din but I work very closely with conversions and converts. Trying to

advocate for conversion within current system right now. Eidut, services and minyan. I


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mean those are the three areas in which a woman cannot function completely. Which

really leads me to the discussion of title. Discussion of title. So Ill say it again- I function

as a Rabbi and I love what I do. I dont do it to make a point. Just a story- I went toBarnard and before I went to college my parents made me take a vocational test just to

get a sense of what I should be doing. I dont think I was such a floaty person to begin

with but they were concerned college costs a lot of money and they made me take avocational sense. I was best suited to be in the clergy. And at the time, we laughed. We

laughed because my parents are not as traditional but they do affiliate with Orthodox

community and I knew it wasnt an option so I put the vocational test away- I did,through to college, though, was always involved with the community, Life in Action

organization actually started at Stern College and no longer functioning. I was always

involved in Jewish community and education. I finally saw the light when I graduated

college and realized I was not really suited to be an occupational therapist- I, afterworking in the Jewish community, running this organization, went to Drisha to spend a

little bit of time on my own personal education and when I graduated I looked at my own

skillset and realized I would be best suited to function in a community. I had a

relationship with Rabbi Weiss and called him up and said I am looking for a full-time jobin a synagogue; can you help me find one? And he took me really seriously. I had no

doubt in my mind that somebody was going toh ire me. So I ended up taking this part-time position in HIR and thats what got me to where I am now. When I got there,

though, I remember exactly where we were, into 2nd year that I was there, walking to

Tashlich on Rosh Hashana- what is necessary to be taken seriously in a position of

leadership. And he said you need a certain amount of years of learning under your belt.So we had a chavrusa, had teachers, spent the next six years continuing to study as well

as working at the HIR and functioning in the capacity of a rabbi. Im not sure if he ever

thought I would graduate and finish but I did. I took all the tests, all the same exams thatother semikha students take and I was done. And Im like okay, now what. And it was a

its a deeply political situation as well- we talking about ___ the Modern Orthodox

community before- something we are all sensitive to. I didnt want to be in a position ofcausing any split within the Modern Orthodox community and so we spent a lot of time

talking about title. For me, it was less about title and about functioning in a position of a

rabbi. Now I realize, more than before that title is important- because it allows me to domy job a little bit better. If people see me in a position of rabbi even if the title is not

actually rabbi, I am able to do my job better. If I work into a shiva house just as Sara

Hurwitz, the dynamic and my presence is very different. If I walk in as Maharat Sara

Hurwitz or representing the shul, automatically its a very different presence. Weretalking about minyan or some relevant halakhic issue- Im automatically in a position

where the mourner reacts and responds to me differently and Im able to be there for

different people because I am seen as a rabbi.

So for me, the title Maharat, which Im impressed you rolled off your tongue so

beautifully, it was a good compromise. I think it remains to be seen whether it is a meansto an end or if it is an end. Its still too soon to tell whether Maharat is something that will

take off or if Maharat is just a step to an alternative title. I think right now, although the

community more to the left is disappointed that the title is not rabbi, people to the right

and left need to know that I am functioning as a rabbi. For the left, although the title is


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not actually rabbi, the title I have adopted, I hope will come to mean rabbi and at least in

my community it has. And for people in the right, I find it allows me to be more present

and to do a little more because it is not as threatening. It allows women to function in aposition of spiritual leadership. Im not doing what I do because Im a blazing feminist; I

love my job. I have three young kids and Im here now its not easy being on call 24

hours and knowing the phone is going to read. Especially for women and for a youngmother, its not an easy job, but I do it because I love it and right now I cannot imagine

doing anything else. I was telling Gilah before that the reporter from The Commentator

called me in preparation for this and he asked that if I felt like it was significant for meto becoming to Stern. And I was thinking in my head, Hmm, I didnt think it was so

significant till you asked that question. The truth is that I am really excited and want to as

often and as much as possible to have an opportunity to speak to students. People in

college, post-college thinking about their careers- one of the goals now is to let peopleknow this is not a one-person shul. Five of us now, including Gilah as well (Chana: as the

sixth? unsure) the point is that I want girls in high school and women in college that

this is a feasible career. This is something that is an option and reasonable for women to

pursue and do. There may be hurdles and it may not be the easiest path to take right now.Ive started a school, Yeshivat Maharat, where we are planning on ordaining women;

very exciting, we have four students signed up; were going to continue to grow andexpand every year. Who knows what the title will be in the next four years? Rabbis,

Maharat- whats important is that women have the opportunity to learn and can be there

for people, in pulpit position, schools, the skys really the limit for what women can do. I

think that layleaders have a responsibility also to try to advocate for their communityrabbis to hire women in positions of leadership. I think that things are changing; I think

the more that we see the dream is that eventually people will look at us as spiritual

leaders, rabbis, wont see us as women but as rabbis. As somebody who is able to bethere for the congregant at any specific time, any specific need- I think it is happening but

time will tell.

Answers: When you say the skys the limit in terms of what women can do, obviously

you mean that in certain roles, but obviously not the case not only in your role but others

as well- within your role do you think you have reached your maximum leadershippotential? The idea that womens roles are changing or have changed- I guess being

counted for a minyan, tefilah, reading torah, those kinds of things- do you think this is

setting the stage for womens roles changing?

Maharat: Second one first- Im pretty tradional. My co-rabbi is constantly pushing the

envelope even more than I am and I feel like Im the one pulling back and saying,

Whoa, not so fast. I dont know how to exactly answer the question of minyan and howthe conversation goes. I know that I am pretty solidly comfortable in my Orthodox skin

and I have never questioned that- never questioned the fact that I completely traditionally

bought into the Orthodox community, whatever that means, and you know, I think thatthere are challenges. Its not an easy path but I do think that the sky is the limit. I dont

think that I have reached my cement ceiling yet and I think it gets further and further

away. I think that my position now is very different than it was even a year ago. I think

that shows in a year from now, two years from now, three years from now things will


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change. I think we did speak about parameters etc- its my idea that the halakhic

limitations dont prevent a woman from functioning as a rabbi. Not all women want to be

in the pulpit position. Some women, just like male rabbis who graduate from any semikhaprogram, dont want to be in the pulpit- still seen as rabbis. In that way the skys the

limit. I think there are limits- on a college campus I dont see any difference or

limitations to their role.

Answers: Youve do you see the role that youre in is the maximum, the ideal, dont

see the other areas of Halakha expanding with the scholarship role?

Maharat: Dont know what those areas are- I think I function within a halakhic

framework and we have to deal with halakhah every step of the way. Im not looking at

Halakha and looking at ways to shatter it or to break it. Im pretty certain that every stepalong the way has been one within the confines and framework of Halakha.

Answers: What are your criteria for accepting women into the program?

Maharat: Right now were looking for women who are comfortable in text, have a

certain level of learning and somebody who is committed to the Orthodox communityand willing to give back.

Answers: I just wanted to know- given the halakhic parameters- do you see this also as a

job that can really penetrate the Sephardic community as well?

Someone: Can you repeat the question?

Maharat: Sephardim. Im not going to answer it directly but Ill just give you a little

story. In our synagogue we have a Hebrew institute- we try to be a one minyan shul; we

have the main minyan. However, within our shul we also have a Teen Minyan, ShalomBayit minyan so that one member of the couple can be there a little earlier/ later with

kids, Sephardi Minyan. The point is that each of our Minyanim/ each of the people who

are davening in alternative spaces are supposed to conform to the philosophy of the HIR.So recently the Sephardi minyan wanted to raise their mechitza quite significantly and it

became a very tense discussion because they also wanted to change the structure so men

were in front and women in back which is how most Sephardi shuls function. Became a

very intense conversation because Sephardi community wanted to do their own thing-and it became clear that within HIR they have to conform to our philosophy. So no way

women would be sent to back and mechitza would go to ceiling. At least in HIR would

not happen but in Sephardi and Ashkenazi communities in other communities, visceralknee-jerk reaction to having women in positions of leadership and until communities see

women in those positions, I think its going to take time to get used to it.

Answers: It seems like after similar discussions in Israel, there was much less of a

controversy/ media frenzy than after your ordination. What do you think is the difference

between process here and in Israel?


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Maharat: Im not sure anything really happened in Israel- it was just theoretical. No

person was ordained or finished anything- I think they are setting the stage for women to

be in a role of spiritual leadership. Rabbi Riskin is working on something

Answers: Do you see yourself working within a sole pulpit position in some community?

Maharat: Definitely something Ive thought about, I feel like eventually I may be pushed

out from HIR- Rabbi Avi Weiss model is of training somebody and perpetuate themelsewhere- I like that model elsewhere- right now dont think I can be a sole practitioner

because of family life as well. I do see it as something that potentially will happen in who

knows how many years- there has to be some creativity- I dont count for minyan or lead

services so has to be in community with strong layleaders.

Answers: Important issue within the Jewish community= Agunah- we havent really seen

them moving forward on this issue but now its a pivotal time- do you think that you or

women might take the lead on that issue?

Maharat: The advocates have already come to make that same argument with me. Ithink it speaks a little to the unique voice that women can offer. I think that each person

no matter whether male or female has unique talents. I think women are in a position to

help in certain areas, whether niddah and intimacy and stuff that is more emabbarrsing to

talk about with rabbi. Same true with agunah issue, either women have been through itthemselves. I spend a lot of time thinking about agunah issue and not quite sure why

there hasnt been as much movement for it know woman in Israel who is a scholar in

her own right and is spending quite a lot of time

[]

I know there were a lot of unanswered questions. Please feel free to come up to me and

speak to me afterwards! Its a pleasure to be here and if anybodoy wants to learn more

about Yeshivat Maharat, I can tell you how to get in touch with me and we can continuethe conversation.

Chana: It seems to me that most of your argument has to do with historical context. So

Im curious to know whether you think that the Gemara was sexist.

Maharat: I think its certainly a patriarchal text. Im somebody who learned hilkhot

niddah and was not angry at the texts when I read them, but it was certainly impacted bythe culture and context in which they lived.

Chana: Im curious to know- in places beyond where it is specifically noted in the textthat they took from the outside culture, do you think the texts were impacted by the

historical context?

Maharat: I definitely think the historical context impacted the shaping of the texts.


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maharat sara hurwitz- can women be rabbis

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