Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 1939

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Brisbane City Council, &c., Bill. [22 NoVEMBER.] Questions. 1779

WEDNESDAY, 22 NOVEMBER, 1939.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. E. J. Hanson, Buranda) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORT.

BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL AccOUNTS.

Mr. SPEAKER announced the receipt from the Auditor-General of the third annual report on the books and accounts of the Brisbane City Council, being for the year 1938-39.

Ordered to be printed.

QUESTIONS.

CATTLE TRAFFIC ON THE ETHERIDGE RAILWAY; SUGGESTED EXTENSION TO CROYDON.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) asked the Minister for Transport-

'' 1. Have water-tanks and trucking-yards on the Etheridge line been removed this year W If so, what are the details of such removals~

'' 2. Has the value of this line for defence purposes been considered, including an extension from Forsayth to Croydon' If so, what decision has been reached W

'' 3. Has the value of this line received consideration in connection with the coastal fattening of cattle~ If not, will he confer with the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock on this aspect of the matter'"

1780 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

The lUINISTER FOR TRANSPORT (Hon. J. Larcombe, Rockhampton) replied)-

'' 1. One 30,000-gallon tank was removed from Einasleigh to Dajarra, where a tank was required.

''2. No.

'' 3. Cattle in large numbers cannot be conveyed on this railway, which is only equipped for a rail-motor service with a limited carrying capacity. No recent request has been made to the Railway Department to carry cattle in large numbers on this line.''

PRICE OF METHYLATED SPIRITS.

Mr. POWER (Baroona) asked the Secre­tary for Labour and Industry-

"In view of the fact that 14 days ago Messrs. R. S. Exton and Company were selling methylated spirits in 2-gallon lots at 3s. per gallon, and on 18th instant Messrs. George Gough and Son were selling the same quantity at 4s. per gallon, will he cause an investigation to be made with regard to the retail price of methylated spirits per gallon?''

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY (Hon. T. A. Foley, Normanby) replied-

'' An investigation by the State Commis­sioner of Prices respecting the prices charged by Messrs. R. S. Exton and Corn, pany, Proprietary, Limited, and George Gough and Son, for methylated spirits in 2-gallon lots, indicates that the variation in prices is due to the different methods of trading of the firms in question-viz., pur­chasing in large quantities as against small lots, and that these prices were ruling prior to the outbreak of war.''

DISTRIBUTIO:"f OF GOVERNMENT'S LEGAL vVOR:K AMONGST BARRISTERS.

~lr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asked the Attorney-General-

" "\Yill he arrange to distribute the Government's legal work as equally as possi_ble. amongst all the barristers, includ­mg Jumors, some of whom are on militarv service~ ' ' •

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich), for The ATTORNEY­GENERAL (Hon. J. Mullan, Carpentaria), replied-

'' The Crown distributes its work, having due regard to the requirements of the case and keeping in mind the necessity of sar8-guarding the public interest at all times.''

MILK FOR CHILDREN IN WESTERN DISTRICTS.

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asked the Premier-

'' When 1vill the Government supply fresh milk to the needy children of the back country as promised in his policy speech early in 1938 ~ ''

Tile PRE3IIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) replied-

'' I refer the hon. member to May's 'Par­liamentary Practice,' 13th edition, page 240. The Government's policy, however, will be announced at an early date.''

l<'A1IILY ENDOWMEKT.

1\Ir. YK~TES (East Toowoomba) asked the Premier-

'' In view of the declining birthrate, will the Government introduce a suitable family endowment scheme~''

The PRE3HER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) replied-

'' This question is receiving consideration. The policy involved is a Commonwealth matter.''

REPORT OF \VOOL ADVISORY COMMISSION.

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asked the Premier-

'' "\V ill the Government give considera­tion to the \Vool Advisory Commission's report in this session of Parliament, or will they implement the necessary reforms by regulation 7''

The PREliiiER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) replied-

'' Yes. The matter is under consideration now, and any decisions arrived at will be based on the maximum public advantage, taking the State as a whole. Governme1Its are not bound to accept all or any of a commission's recommendations, an interest­ing example being the Commonwealth Bank­ing Commission's report.''

vVOOL AND SHEEP EXPERTS.

lUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba), witll­out notice, asked the Secretary for Agricul­ture and Stock-

'' 1. How many wool and sheep experts are employed in the Department of Agri­culture~

"2. Where are they stationed g

'' 3. Will he consider the advisability of sending one to Dalby and south-west in new settlement g''

The SECRETARY FOR AGRI•tULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) replied-

'' Pive sheep and wool experts are employed in the Department o'f Agricul­ture and Stock-namely, Messrs. Carew, Hodge, Swinburne, Payne, and Daly.

''In addition to that quite a number of wool classers are more or less permanently employed by the department.

''The question of sending an officer to Dalby has already been attended to. 'I'"1e officers who are stationed in Brisbane­Messrs. Payne, Carew, and Hodge-are itinerant officers available for service in

Newstead House Trust Bill. [22 NovEMBER.] Newstead flouse Trust Bill. 1781

any part of the State; and if any person at Dalby or any other centre requires the services of an officer one is made avail­able."

PAPER. The following paper was laid on the

table:-

Regulation, dated 16 November, 1939, under the Trust Accounts Acts, 1923 to 1925.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

Mr. YEA'l'ES (East Toowoomba) (1,0.38 a.m.), by leave: I wish to make a personal explanation. In the ' 'Courier-Mail'' this morning appears a statement by the Premier to the effect that I have taken up 14 yards of single-column copy with my speeches on the Estimates and the Financial Statement. I desire to point out that my complaint was that the Estimates were placed in such a posi­tion on the :business-paper that hon. members had no opportunity at any time to discuss four of the most important ones-namely, Agricultme and Stock, Health and Home Affairs, Treasury, and Justice. Every hon. member has the right to speak for the full time allowed him under the Standing Orders, and it is my intC'ntion to do so whenever it suits me. I do not look to other Parliam'ents for precedents.

ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

The Clerk, having read the list of orders to which no returns had been made,

lUr. ~IAHER (West Moreton) (10.39 a.m.): I wish to know what is the cause of the delay of the presentation of these returns to Parliament.

}Jr. SPEAKER: Order! This is a formal proceeding.

1\EWSTEAD HOUSE TRUST BILL.

INITIATION.

The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) : I move-

'' That the House will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the vVhole to consider of the desirableness of introducing a Bill to authorise the crea­tion of a trust with respect to a building known as N ewstead House; to define the powers and duties of the said trust, and for other purposes.''

Motion agreed to.

I~ITIATION lN COMJ\IITTEE.

(Mr. 0 'Keefe, Caims, in the chair.)

The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) (10.40 a .. m.): I move-

'' That it is desirable that a Bill be intro­duced to authorise the creation of a trust with respect to a building known as New-

stead House; to define the powers and duties of the said trust, and for other pll'rposes. ''

I think I shonld inform the Committee that I desire to take the Bill through all its stages immediately. It is the outcome of a desire to do s·omething r' a permanent nature with the building known as N ewstead House. I believe that N'ewstead House is one of the oldest buildings in the State, and at one time was Government House. F'or some time it has been more particularly used by an organisa­tion known as the Historical Society of Queensland. Among the oibjects of that society is the collection and preserva.tion of historical records pertaining to the State of Queensland. It is a very good society, doing particularly good work. One of the things that a young country should undertake is the preservation of its historical records. IV:e are not go very old, and the .sooner we take this action the better it will be. Many of ou·r important records have been lost already.

A gentleman in Sydney has in his posses­sion the butts of the receipt book of the first land sale in this part of New South Wales, then known as Moreton Bay. How it came into his possession I do not know. That is a record that we might very well have in Queensland. It may be of very great interest 500 years hence. One of the fine things about England is the fact that the British Museum has a wonderful collection of records and the preservation of them is something of wh'ich the curators and the people, too, are particularly proud. They are ·open to everybody to inspect and to use, the result being that the British Museum is famed throughout the ,.-oriel.

That is a work we should be doing in Queensland. It has already been undertaken to a certain extent in New Soll'th \Vales by the Mitchell Library. In Queensland there are the Historical Society and the Oxley Li:brary. Hoth are good organisations, and some time since I made an effort to bring them together. I believe that it would serve very good lJurpose to have the two organisa­tions together, but I found there is somewhat of a difference. The Oxley Library is working along its own lines in the preserving of the literature of this State particularly, and of certain records, and the Historical Society is working on the lines of preserving historical records. Rather than create a deadlock I made the recommendation that we should pro­ceed with the Historical Society along the lines we now propose, and when the new library building is erected make provision there for housing the collection of the Oxley Library. That is a splendid collection and one of which the committee should be parti­cularly proud. I have no desire to talk parti­cularly of the Oxley Library nor of the Histori­cal Society. If I set out to give tl:te history of the society I should be particularly careful to see that it was accurate, and as I have not a complete knowledge at the moment I will leave it at tha.t. It is an organisation that has been iir existence for some time, and is carried on by estimable gentlemen who a.re fired with a zeal for preserving historical records.

1782 Newstead House Trust Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Newstead House Trust Bill.

Newstead House is a !building situated in N ewstead Park on a very fine site on the bank of the Brisbane River. The property belongs to the Brisbane City Council, and naturally, if we are to create a trust it is necessary to do something t·o· give the trustees possession. The . Bill I am introducing pro­vides that a trust shall be created, and the coun.cil is prepared to hand over the building to the Historical So.ciety. It is thought that it would be the right thing to .create a trust for the .control of the building, the records, and histori.cal items housed there. The build­ing is not in altogether first-class repair. I am told by gentlemen competent to make the statement that the walls are good for 100 if not 200 years. The roof and probably the partitions, howe·ver, need a little attention, and it is proposed tha,t an amotmt of abowt £1,200 should lbe spent to put N ewstead House into a state of repair that will make it a decent, safe, and fire-proof !building for the housing of historical records. The Govern­ment are prepared to vote the sum of between £600 and £700 for that purpose, and the Brisbane City Council is prepared to vote an equal amount; so that the Government of Queensland and the Brisbane City Council will find the money to put Newstead House into a proper state of repair.

It is also proposed to create a trust con­sisting of th"ree members. One member will be a representative of the Government, who will be chairman of the ·trust, one will be a representative of the Brisbane City Council, elected by that body, and the third will be a memlber of the Historical Society, whose nomination, naturally, will be approv·ed by the Governor in Oouncr1.

The trust will have the management and control of N ewstead House and the records and all affairs associated with N ewstead House and Historical Society. The Bill will provide for the· establishment of a fund known as the Newstead House Fund. That fund will be created for the purpose of receiving donations, bequests, any grant that the Government might deem desirable to make from consolidated revenue, any moneys that might be received from the Brisbane City Council, and all other moneys that might come into the society's possession. That fund will ·be used to pay the expenses incurred in carrying the Act into execution, and: in doing any acts or things that the tmst is ·empowered or required to do.

We are making provision in the Bill to deal with unlawful damage to any of the records that may be there. Unfortunately, the vandal is still about, and I think it is wise that before any damage is done we should make provision for due punishment of those peculiar people who have the idea that a certain amount of satisfaction is to be derived from the knowledge that they have destroyed something that is of no value to themselves but is ·of value to the State as a whole.

Mr. Moore: First catch your hare.

The TREASURER: That is righc enough, but it is just as well to have the pot ready

in which to put the hare if and when we catch it. I think that we are doing a wise thing in being ready for the gentleman, if he crops up. I hope that he does not crop u·p.

I have given the Committee as briefly and as clearly as I am able to do a view of what it is proposed to do by this Bill. It is rather late in the session, but it has been delayed by reason of the fact that we wanted to· get a very a.ccurate description of the amount of ground to be .given to the trust. The Bris­bane City Council is not giving the whole of Newstead Park; it is giving the ground upon which the house is ·situated, and a little more. Tha.t is all that will be necessary for its purpose, because surrounding Newstead House is a very !beautiful park. This house i:s really situated in the centre of very fine surroundings, and there is no need for the Historical .Society to have grounds of its own. For that reason the amount of ground that is being given is very little in excess of the actual amount upon which the house stands, but it will be enowgh for the purpose, and I am pleased to be able to ask the Committee to give consideration to this Bill, because in doing so it will be d'oing something for the preservation of historical records-something that Queensland very sorely needs.

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) (10.49 a.m.) : I am pleased thlat the Minister is introd:ucing this Bill, but I suggest that we should get more information than he gave us. At the end of his speech he did say that a little more ground than that upon which the house actually stood was being given. Re said that there was no occasion for the Historical Society to have any more ground than that upon which the house actually stands or a very small piece extra.

I would point out to the Committee that the Historical Society is not only collecting records, books, and things of that nature for the purpose of housing them in N ewstead Ho~se, but it is also gathering together old vehicles and means of locomotion that were ~n use in Queensland in the early days. For mstance, Centenary celebrations will shortly be held at Warwick and Toowoomba and the society has been collecting for display there various things such as a two-wheeled bullock draY: which use'd to be a common thing in use m Queensland many years ago but which is more or less of a rarity at the present time. Great difficulty was experienced in getting one of these vehicles. Much trouble was incurred also in getting a relic of the coaches used by Cobb and Com'pany. These things will be of immense value to the futme people of this State, who will be able to form from them some idea of the methods of loco­motion used in the early days of Queensland. Various machines, such as one for making candles, are being collected, and it is hoped that enough ground· v.'ill be made available with N ewstead House to enable a building or shed of some description to be erect'Bd there in which to house these implements and means of locomotion. They are gradually being collected from different parts of the State and would constitute a valuable adjunct to the records of the Historical Society. It

Newstead House Trust Bill. [22 NovEMBER.] Newstead House Trust Bill. 1783

was hoped that the land accompanying the house ,,-ould be of sufficient area to enable a building to be constructed in which these things could be prcscrvecl.

'l'here is another factor in this matter. It wn s toucherl on by the Minister in his open­ing remarks. He mentioned the partitions and the rooms of the building, but I would point out that the recorcls of the society are of immense value and I clo not think that wooden i1oors would affonl the protection necessary for the p1·eservation of the valuable recorcls.

T!1e Treasurer: I mentioned that the building woulcl bo put into condition to pre­serve the records.

Jl'Ir. : If that means that the wooden ,,-iJ] be· taken up ancl replaced with fire-proof material, it seems to be all right.

The Treasurer: Part of them.

)I:r. ~IOORE: Yes; that part in which the valuable rccon1s are to be kept. Some of them m·e ineplace:lble, and it seems to me that a sum of money should be devoted to making the building sufficiently fire-proof for the pur:1ose of preserving them.

The Minister also referred to the Oxley Librar;· and the intention to make provision for the housing of this library in the . new Public Library building. I am glad to hear that. At the present time, many valuable Tecords are being kept in the top of the present Public Libmq building. There is not a great deal of room available, and the partitions and other structures erected there are high.Jy inflammable; it only needs some­body to dTop a cigarette :butt and the Tecords of the Oxley Libmry would disap_pear in smoke. If there is enough room in the pre­sent Public LihT~ry to pTeseTw the rccorcls of the Oxley Librarv I think that accommo­dation coul~l be us~d for library purposes rather than for temporaTily housing public sen·ants.

I am keenly interested in the work being performer] b~' the HistOTical Society, and 1 want to be sure thrrt pro' ision will be made for the fire-proofing of that part of the build­ing in which th-0 vnlurrblc rccon1s will be kept, · and that a sufficient area of land be obtained on which to eTect a building to enable irre­plaeeable curios to be preserYcd, so that the future generations of Queensland might sec the things that 'vere used in the early settlement of this State. These things are becoming rapidly irreplaceable. A few years ago there were at Surat three Cobb and Com­pany's coaches at the back of an olc1 shed ·hat used to be used as a fowl roost. One uf them was obbincd by the HistoTical Society in Sydney and taken down to that ".apital. One was burnt and the other seems o have mysteriously disappeared. After see­

ing- them there, I got in touch 'vith the Historical Society with a view to its e1ldeav­otuing to obtain one of the coaches. It is ,·ery difficult to get some of these- old vehicles. Indeed, it is very difficult to get

some of the kitchen utensils that wore in common use by the early settlers in the country clisb·icts of Queensland. However, encr~retic persons are scouring the State look­ing foT interesting curios to be exhibited at IV arwick during the forthcoming centenary celebrations on the Darling Downs and the intention is that later on the exhibits shall be permanently stored by the Historical Society so that they may be seen by the rest of the people of the State. That seems to be an excellent suggestion, and I should have liked to see enough ground made available to the HistoTical Society so that it would ha Ye been a blo to house these- old relics. They will he an advantage not only to the society but they will also be of immense in terost to the people of the State.

lUr. HISLOP (Sandgate) (10.56 a.m.): Xewstcacl House has had a very interesting association with the development of this State. I agree ,vith the hon. member for Aubigny that the Bill does not give the society enough ground. In fact, if it took ovcT the whole of the existing park it would not then bo in control of the whole of the original block upon which the house was built. It may not be generally know that thoro are prison cells in the basement of the house that >VeTo constructecl by the convicts in the early days, and whore they were imprisoned. The prison cells are still in the basement, and if any stTuctural alterations aTe to be mar1e to N ewste-:1d House I should not like to see these cells interfered with to any gTeat extent, not that I should like. to see them retainecl as a detenont to ev1l-doers but to lot the people know what the convicts in the early days had to contend with. It may not also be generally known that t?e house was OTiginall:y owned by Mr. Harns, in his dav ono of the gTcntest shipping mag­nates in "this State. I 'believe that the flag­stafi at present on the ground is all that M_r. Harris was able to save out of the wreck m rough ~weatlwr of one of his vessels, for which he paid oYer £500. I am not suTe whether the prese11t flnc;st~tL is the ~ne that he saved from the wreck but he chcl erect that fiag­stcff there. Later on the place was sold to Lvsa "hts and they in turn so 1c1 it to Perry Brotl~cTs, who refurnished it. It is no>~ coming into its rightful place .. As I have said the olcl convict cells m·e shll there and as ,~8 are now trying to raise funcls to help the Eell CToss pcThnps we could make a ~mall chm·ge for the ailmission of the. pubhc to the cells and so raise money for tlns laudable cause. Very fmv people in Brisbane know tlw t the cells arc there.

I\Ir. RU§SELL (Hamilton) (11 a.m.): On this occasion I c:m heaTtily commend the Brisbane Cib· Council for co-operating "·ith the GoYernment in a very >vorthy cause.

The Historicd Society has been struggling for years, and its membership is gTowing slowlv. Anparentlv, theTa is abroad a move­rn~nt"' for fhe pres(~rYation of objects of inter­est relating to early settlement. \Ve know that at one time N ewstead House ''as the scone of many functions and that there the

1784 Newstcad House Trust Bill.. [ASSEMBLY.] Newstead House Trust Bill.

sounds of revelry 0ould often be heard at night. Those days are gone. The hon. member for Sandgate mentioned a Mr. George Harris, who lived there for many years. He was a very wealthy man and held a great number of parties there. The house itself was the residence of the first Government Resident, Captain Wickham. We are there­fore right in saying it is the first Govern­ment House. At all events, we know that we have there a building within which our first administrator resided.

It is essential that all these old monuments should be preserved, but whether it is desir­able to preserve the present house as it stands without addition or alterations is another matter. I should like to see the old cells dismantled and the basement utilised for the storing of relics and antiquities. Through­out the British Empire, and principally in Great Britain, attempts have been made to preserve old landmarks, antiquities, and relics of bygone days. I notic-ed in the United States of America recently that there was a very fine exhibit at the San Francisco exhibi­tion typifying the life of the early pioneers. Use was made of the old covered wagon-a huge lumbering vehicle drawn by a number of horses-together with all the requirements for a long journey. The wagon and the uten­sils were in a good state of preservation. Although America is a young country, it is good to see a movement to preserve such relics before they disappear. Every effort should be made to encourage the preserva­tion of relics of early settlement.

I asked a question in this House recently as to whether the Government intended to subsidise the Historical Society. I was very pleased to learn from the Government that this matter is under consideration. While an expenditure of £1,200 will probably put the building in a state of repair, there will be a recurring annual expense for maintenance, the payment of some wages, and, I presume, for incidentals. The subscriptions received from members would not be sufficient to provide for the upkeep of the institution as it should be maintained. I sincerely trust that when framing the next Estimates the Government . vvill see their way clear to provide an annual subsidy for this institution. I trust also that the Brisbane City Council will be able to find an annual amount for subsidising the society.

This is a measure we can all support. The object is a very worthy one, and all hon. members are imbued with the idea of preserv­ing as far as possible the relics of olden days-anything appertaining to early settle­ment. The Historic-al Society, in addition to the desire to accumulate a library of events of early days, is· anxious to preserve also all the antiquities of this State it possibly can. There seems to be a spirit abroad among Queenslanders to make every effort to preserve early records. Even in our own sphere in this Parliament we are endeavouring to collect all works relating to early settlement. In fact, a section of our Parliamentary Library to-day is devoted to Australian matters entirely. So we have the work of

collecting all the well-known authors who wrote regarding Australia. That will be a very valuable collection in the days to eome. We also have the Oxley Library, which is doing a similar work. Eventually we shall be able to build up fine collections that will be of great interest, not only to our own people, but also to visitors to this city. One of the great attractions of any eity is museums depicting the early life of the eountry, and enabling visitors to make themselves au fait, not only with the details of our early colonisation, but of the literature conneeted with it.

I have very much pleasure in supporting the Bill.

The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) (11.6 a.m.): I am not altogether in accord with the hon. member for Aubigny, who desires a greater area for partieular purposes -the housing of a Cobb and Company's coac-h and a two-wheeled bullock waggon. In my opinion, they are not matters for a Historical Society; they are matters for a museum. A museum is used for storing and exhibiting objects illustrative of antiquities of natural history, and the fine arts and the industrial arts. We should keep in the Queensland Museum those things that belong to the museum and confine to the Historical Soeiety those things the· Historical Society may need. I can see the Historical Society and the Museum working hand in hand, and not in antagonism. Hon. members can visualise the time-20 25 or 50 years hence---<when the State its~lf w'm build archives in which will be stored all the historical records of this State.

Mr. Russell: " Hansards."

The TREASURER: Not "Hansards." Many records have disappeared. The hon. member for Aubigny mentioned the disappear­ance of a Cobb and Company coach that was probably chopped up for firewood or run into a creek as a foundation for a dam.

''Imperial Caesar, dead and turned to clay,

May stop a hole to keep the wind away.''

So Cobb and Company's coac-h may still be serving some useful purpose somewhere.

Mr. Maher: I saw three or four Cobb and Company's coaches in the stable at the 1·ear of the new Royal Hotel at Surat about 10 years ago.

The TREASURER: I have seen them running on the road.

Mr. Russell: I have seen Cobb and Com­pany coaches in San Francisco; they origi­nated there.

The TREASURER: Yes, they came from there.

I do not think we should complain about the amount of ground allocated for the purpose of creating this trust. Having that ground, I think we should be quite satisfied. The building can be used to store all the other

Newstead House Trust Bill. [22 NovEMBER.] Petroleum Acts Amendment Bill. 1785

historical records and things of interest to the city generally.

I thank the Committee for ,the favourable way the proposal has been received.

Motion (Mr. Cooper) agreed to.

Resolution reported.

FIRST READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Cooper, read a first time.

SECOND READING.

The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) (11.11 a.m.): I move-

'' That the Bill be now read a second time.''

I may say here that I think we can leave to the trust to be created all matters in con­nection with the preservation of the house and its maintenance in such a condition that· the records will be safe both from theft and the greater thief-fire. I am satisfied the trust will see to that and the House need have no fear on that score. The trust to be appointed will consist of gentlemen keenly interested in the preservation of historical records, and, incidentally, in the preservation of N ewstead House. I am sure all things will be done by the trust in the very best possible interests of the Historical Society and the preservation of historical records.

Motion agreed to.

CoMMITTEE.

(Mr. 0 'Keefe, Cairns, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 to 9, both inclusive, as read, agreed to.

Clause 10-Newstead House Fund-

Mr. MOO RE (Aubigny) (11.14 a.m.): I <>bserve that the clause states that the trust shall establish a fund to be called the "N ewstead House Fund." I have not had time to read the Bill thoroughly, but the question occurs to me whether this trust, which is not to be known as the Historical Society trust, is to be purely for the Historical Society or whether it is possible for the trust to house any other organisation that desires to come in. Is any other part of the house to be used for other purposes~

The Treasure,r: No. They may let it for meetings and· things of that description.

Clause 10, as read, agreed to.

Clauses 11 to 14, both inclusive, and preamble, as read, agreed to.

Bill reported, without amendment.

TIDRD READING.

Bill, on motion of Mr. Cooper, read a third time.

PETROLEUM ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (11.17 a.m.): I move-

'' That the Bill be now read a seco.llJd time.''

The matter was gone into fully on the initiatory stage, and I do not think that I can add anything to what I said on that occasion. The main principles of the Bill are the extension of areas for which permits to prospect may be issued and of leases. It makes provision, too, for rentals and' royal­ties.

In Committee, it will be necessary for me to move one or two amendments in order to ensure that the Bill shall accomplish what we intend. We propose to apply to petroleum prospecting the conditions laid down in the Mineral Lands Acts and the Mining on Pri­vate Lands Act.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (11.19 a.m.) : This Bill is notable for its abandon­ment of past policy in respect to terms and: leases for prospecting for oil. A compari­son of the maximum areas allowed to one person under previous Acts-all sponsored by Labour Governments-discloses this position: The Mining Act Amendment Act of 1920 pro­vided a maximum of 2,000 acres for freehold and 60 acres for leasehold. The Petroleum Act of 1923 provided for 20,000 acres to be held in two permits and 5,000 acres to be held in two leases. The Petroleum Act Amend­ment Act of 1927 was similar to that of 1923, but provided for a special permit up to 100 square miles. The Petroleum Acts Amendment Act of 1929 provided for 40,000 acres to be held in four permits or 10,000" acres in four leases, and the special permit of 100 square miles contained in the Petroleum Act Amendment Act of 1927 held good. Now, it is proposed under this Bill of 1939 that 640,000 acres can be held by one person in five permits and 320,000 acres can be held by one persun in five leases. There has been a gradual evolution of principle in the different Secretaries for Mines in the various Labour Governments since the first Act.

Mr. Walsh: Do you not know thac Labour policy always keeps abreast of the times~

Mr. MAHER: There has been a con­siderable change of front. The predecessor to the present Minister-Lord Mayor Jones -when he was Secretary for Mines, in intro­ducing the Bill in 1923, said-

'' The licenses granted by the 1920 Act -2,000 acres-were too small. Then, if oil was discovered, provision was made for the granting of a lease not to exceed 60 acres. I am now satisfied that 60 acres could not possibly cover the underground geological structure of the oil :find.

''The chief faults of my Act were that it did not permit the Minister to grant a license or a lease over private property,

1786 Petroleum Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

and on Crown lands the area for which a license for lease could be granted was not sufficiently large.

"Mr. Brand: What area do you propose now~

''.The Secretary for Mines: I propose to grant a permit for 10,000 acres, and a lease of one-quarter of the whole area if oil is discovered, provided the permittee complied with certain conditions which I shall deal with presently. The Western Australian Act is another absurd Act; it is worse than my Act of 1920. Under the Western Australian Act the Minister has power to grant very large areas by way o.f licences to prospectors for oil, but immedi­ately oil is discovered they are confined to a 48-acre lease.' They certainly give a reward to the discoverer of oil of 640 acres, but the area of lease is too small. I had in my mind the idea of confining the leases to 640 acres and adopting what was one of the Californian conditions, that is to say, two end-on blocks of 40 acres to prevent inpegging. ''

It will be seen that a big step forward has been taken from a lease of 60 acres in 1920 up to 5,000 acres in 1923, 10,000 acres in 1929, and 320,000 acres by one person in five leases in 1939.

There has been a reduction in rentals from 6d. an acre, which is the equivalent of £16 a square mile, to £10 a square mile. Royalties have been increased considerably in some instances and in others reduced. The guiding principle appears to have been that those who could carry increased royalties if oil is dis­covered are being asked to pay a greater sum.

Mr. Walsh: Do you suggest that the areas proposed to be allotted are too large~

Mr. MAHER: I intended to revert to that matter later. As the hon. member has asked the question I want to say that I gave the matter considerable thought with a view to deciding whether it would be wise to move for a reduction of the area, but I came to the conclusion that in all the circumstances it would perhaps be wise to give the greatest possible encouragement to persons who were willing to invest their money in the rather hazardous undertaking of the search for oil. If we were starting afresh I might have felt disposed to follow the line of some of the Ministers who were associated with the earlier Acts. I suppose that over £1,000,000 has already been invested in the search for oil in Queensland, and it has not been brought in in commercial quantities. However, it is desirable to give every possible encourage­ment to the people who are prepared to risk their money in the search for oil, and having regard to the vital effect that the discoverv of oil in payable quantities would have oi':t the development and protection of this country, I decided to support the Bill in its present form.

The Minister also said that the States of the Commonwealth had agreed in conference to a uniform policy in the matter so that

those who were interested in investing their cash and getting the subsidy from the Commonwealth Government would operate under similar conditions in all the States. If all the other States have agreed to the principle of granting bigger areas for pros­pecting, and bigger areas for leases, after the actual flow has taken place, I think it is desirable that we should support the Bill in its present form.

Mr. O'Keefe: We could produce our own oil requirements after the money had been spent in looking for it.

Mr. MAHER: We can profit by our experience. Money has been spent in the search for oil, and now we can afford to be more liberal in dealing with those who are prepared to invest their money in the search of it.

Mr. O'Keefe: I meant that we could pro­duce our own crops.

Mr. Moo re: Power alcohol?

Mr. MAHER: If it was a pra.ctical pro­po~al. I have always advocated that experi­ments should be made to see whether power alcohol could be produced on a commercial basis, but there seems to be some doubt on the point. The 'late Mr. Seymour Howe, of Gordonvale, assured me on one occasion that it could be done.

Mr. O'Kee:fe: H can be done, too.

Mr. MAHER: But it is not being done. In my policy speech at the last election I urged that the Commonwealth and the States should be asked to subscribe money for th0 purpose of canying out experiments.

Mr. o~Keefe: The Commonwealth Government get too much revenue from imported oil. That is the reason.

Mr. MAHER: I do not think that any Government in Australia would be willing to jettison an important industry that could provide the motor fuel of this country, thereby keeping the money within the country instead of sending it abroad for imported spirit. The Federal Government have carried out inves­tigations of this problem from time .to time, but adverse reports have been subm1tted. I must take those facts into consideration. Adverse reports on the .subject have been submitted to the Federal Government by various royal commissions. The Cour:cil fo.r Scientific and Industrial Research mvestl­gated the matter and made an adverse report.

On the other hand, an organisation at Cairns believes that it is- possible to manu­facture power alcohol from the by-products of sugar-cane, and place the spirit on the market on a commercia.lly payllJ'bJe basis in competition with overseas petroleum prices. All I know is that there are two conflicting schools of thought on the question. In my policy speech last year I said we were willing, had we obtained power, to make a.vailable a sum of money and endea.vour to interest the Commonwealth in the same way for the

Petroleum Acts [22 NovEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1787

purpose of making investigations into the practicability of the scheme.

The Treasurer: I do not ;know that we are bou11d by that.

Mr. MAHER: I do not know that the hon. gentleman is, but what is the use of talking idly and sveculative·ly if the talk is not backed up by some practical effort W The Government could wiseJy take a leaf out of my policy speech last year and implement it by providing some :financial assistance to test the claims of those very worthy gentlemen at Cairns who believe that the production of power alcohol is commercially practicable. It is merely beating the air to say that this can be done. It will not help the sincere people who lhelieve that power alcohol can be pro­duced and plaeed on the market at a price tlrat will enable it to compete with imported spirit. It is all very well, too, to accuse the Commonwealth Government of lack of interest or sincerity, but here are a. Government func­tioning withln their own State, who could by practical aid ·extend our cane a;reas and give a large measure of employment, both in the :field and the factory, in the processing of cane into power alcohol. What a great thing such an industry, if successfully es.tablished, wou1d be for the State! But is such a scheme a practical one~ Th'at is all I want to be convinced of. I met men in N'orth Queensland who were absolutely and sincerely convinced that this can be done; yet Common­wealth investigators say it cannot. Here are a Government who derive their support largely from men repre:senting cane-growing areas, but what a.re they doing to have some prac­tical test made~

Mr. Riordan: You know we advocated it on the Financial Sta.tement.

Mr. SPEAK.ER: Order! I am afraid that the hon. gentleman has been drawn away from his subject.

Mr. MAHER: I admit, Mr. Speaker, that I was, but the produetion of power alcohol is an interesting sidelight on the search for petroleum. ·

I was albout to say that the royalties are reduced from 12! per cent. under the present Act to 10 per cent. under this Bill in resvect of wells up to 2,000 feet in depth, while for wells of 4,000 feet depth and over the existing roya.lties. of 7! per cent. are increased under this Bill to 10 per cent. At present there is a graduated scale for royalties in the case Qf wells producing two barrels a day or more. Under the Bxisting Act those wells pay noth­ing, but under this Bill they will be called upon to pay 10 per cent. For wells producing from 10 to :2,0 banels a day the royalty under the present Act is two-thirds, while it is 10 per cent. under this: Bill.

Viewed by and large, this Bill provides for a reduction in rent, but an increase in royal., ties. That seems to be the right way to tackle the problem. The time to render assristance to pros·pectors for oil is in th'' struggling sta.ges when there is no certaintJ '?f t~eir reaping any reward. Therefore, it IS Wise to reduce the amount of rent on lanil

and increase the royalties if they are success­ful in bringing in a flow of oil. That is the main point in the Bill. It centres largely round the increase in the areas for pros­pecting and the leases, decreases rents, and increases royalties.

I hope the Bill will result in additional activity in the search for oil in Queenslm1.ol. It would be a .great thing for the State if we could find a well from whlch oil cou[.i be obtained in commercially payable quantities. It is difficult for us to visualise the great wealth that would flow into the State. in such circumstances. It is necessary to take a long view ·of this matter and encourage investors to put down ,bores and carry out geological and geophysical investigations to try to locate structures that niight be favomable to the search for oil. Oil has made the United States a very powerful country; the prosperity of Mexico is due to abundance of oil wells ; Roumania is the envy of many powerful EMopean States because of its oil wells; a;nd I suppose the oil wells in Poland may have had a magnetic attraction to the Fuehrer of Germany.

Mr. King: It leads to wars.

Mr. MAHER: That is what causes war frequently-the envy of the riches of a State in the minds of its neighbours. Tire lessons of history show that those who look over their neighbours' fences and see riches there become envious and are prepared to organise war in an endeavour to get some of them. It is an attribute of the predatory nature of mankind. There are the have-nots who want to dispossess the haves, and they are prepared to do it by fair means or foul. The Communist is willing to .get there by foul means; the Socialist is willing to take legal and constitutional means to dispossess the fellow who has anything, in order to give it to the chap who has not. The point is that there is a predatory instinct that causes war because countries have oil and other forms of wealth that others need. Therefore, rich countries-and we have one here-should be jealou·s of their heritage and be prepared at all times to take the necessa.ry steps to resist attack that may !be made by unfriendly nations.

It is difficult for me to understand why nature should have been generous to most other countries in the matter of oil supplies and not generous to a great belt of territory like Australia, especially when there a.re pay­able quantities of oil just to the north of thls continent. It seems to me that somewhere in this continent-probably in Queensland­there may be great reservoirs of oil as yet undiscovered. Past failures and difficulties have discouraged the search for oil.

There are still people in this country who are optimistic enough to invest their money in the search and the Minister is deserving of eredit for departing from previously held principles and convictions that the area of a lease should be limited. If we give enough encouragement to people to induce them to risk their money in the search for oil and they bring in an oil well, they will not be retarded

1788 Petroleum Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

or handicapped, bu"t will have scope and terri­tory for their operations. If in such circum­stances they locate oil and become fabulously wealthy as the ·outcome, does not the State share in those riches; does not the increased xoyalties provided for. iru the Bill give the Sta.te its reward;· and would :not the State be obtaining a further advantage from the increase in the ta.xable incomes derived from such: a great producer of wealth~ We must also not overlook the great number of people who would be found' employment. Great cities would spring up. In s,hort, from the discovery of oil grea~ness would come to Queensland. Therefore, the Minister, in departing from the principles held by his predecessor in office in the ma.tter of the expansion of leases and a reduction of rents, is doing a good job to encourage and assist to a great extent efforts to discover a pay­able oilfield in .this State.

Mr. BEDFORD (Warrego) (11.42 a.m.): The Leader of the Opposition began by objecting generally to the alteration.

Mr. Maher: No. I was showing the reversal in form. I was 1iot objecting.

~Ir. BEDFORD: At the end of his speech he praised it with faint damns. The neces­sity for the alteration in the law is the out­come of experience. As soon as payable oil is .discovered there will have to be another alteration to limit the sizes of the areas that any pa.rticular company can own in order to prevent monopoly and consequent high prices. For the present, it is necessary to do the things that are being done in order to make the search for oil rather more attractive than it is. It was too much to expect-although a number of optiJnists, myself included, believed' that it was possible because it had happened previously-tha.t prospectors for oil in Queensland should have luck enough to strike a payable oil well by blindly stabbing in the proper geological series. The only bad thing about the oil boom of 1928 and 1929 was that in one particularly flagrant case greater efforts for putting down a. bore for discovering profits were made in Pitt street, Sydney, than on the actual field. I took it on and put my own money into it because I believed, as I still do believe, that there are highly payable oilfields in Queel1s­land. It would be utterly impossible for 25,000,000 cubic feet of gas. to have come out of one hole in Roma, and petroliferous gas at that, containing somewhere about 3 pints of oil to the 1,000 cubic feet, unless an oil pool existed. As happened in the case of the 10,000·-acre permits, that speculation came to an end, and people were disappointed in the same ratio as previously they had been optimistic. It therefore became necessary, in order to give it a new lease of life, to grant larger areas for prospecting, but it is not necessary that anythiiJJg like the great areas would be finally granted to anybody when payable oil is discovered. You would find tltis Government immediately altering the whole position and breaking new leases down to modest limits, wherein, say having proved an oilfield, 50 acres would be worth immea-

surably more than 640,000 acres now granted for prospecting purposes.

Mr. Maher: You are giving these as leases, do not forget.

Mr. BEDFORD: We are giving them leases as a reward for prospecting costs, but once payable oil is discovered any new leases may be on a different basis.

Mr. Maher: You are talking outside the Bill.

Mr. BEDFORD: The hon. gentleman was also talking a great deal about power alcohol, which would be quite possible if we had coolie labour and coolie prices except as a by-product. The fact remains that. even with 60-, 80- and lOO-gallon oil shales it is not a payable business as against importing flow oil from 6,000 to 10,000 miles across the sea. Even though Australia has the richest shales in the world, those shales have to be mined and retorted, and then, aft.er those two expen­sive proeesses, we have as a result only a product similar to the crude oil that is flowing freely from wells in other countries.

The State Government have done a great deal to foster th·e search for oil. They have put their Department of Mines at the behest of any man who was.making a decent attempt to find oil. Contrast that with what the Commonwealth Government have done. They spent £576,000 of public money in prospect­ing oilfields in New Guinea. Having found oil, instead of putting another £100,000 into the venture for the purpose of proving it, they turned from 100,000 to 200,000 square miles of country over to three foreign oil companies-the Vacuum Oil Company Proprie­tary Limited, the Shell Company, and the Anglo-Persian Company.

This Government see the necessity for the alterations contained in the Bill in order to make the search m·ore attractive. I have been itching to explore one area for many years but have not had the money to do so. As soon as I can get the money I am going into that place, and I believe that this Bill will largely help the obtaining of money for that purpose.

The Leader of the Opposition has told us of the flowing gold from this tremendous source of wealth, and when we reflect on the tremendous amount of money that we now export for the purchase of motor fuels we realise that nothing that the Government could do within reason to encourage the search for and discovery of oil in Queensland would be t.oo great at this stage.

Mr. WALSH (Mirani) (11.48 a.m.): Th_e Leader of the Opposition, although he indl­cated to the House that he was prepared to support the Bill, certainly would give one the impression iby his opening remarks that he did not think that the Bill was drafted along proper lines.

Mr. M:aher: No. I was showing the reversal of form.

Mr. W ALSH: The hon. gentleman quoted from previous debates in this House to show,

Petroleum Acts [22 NOVEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1789

for example, that Aets passed many years ago provided for an area of 60 acres. That might have been quite justified at the time. It was based on reports that were sub­mitted to the department at that time. As everybody believed at that time that we were going to get oil by the millions of gallons the department was quite justified in providing for limited areas. As time has gone on, and in view of the enormous amount of capital that has been expended in an endeavour to locate oils, it is found neces­sary to make m·ore liberal provision and so attract a larger amount of capital. V\'hen we examine what has happene·d in, say, Cali­fornia, where £3,000,000 was expended to get two oil wells out of 29 shafts, we realise that we have to give some concessions if we desire to attract the capital that is necessary to exploit our oilfields.

All the advice that has been tendered to the Government on this matter goes to show that there are possibilities that oil will be located in great quantities in Queensland, and that the difficulty is to get enough capital from the larger concerns to go into the project on a proper basis because they have no security of tenure.

The question of fuel supply from other sources •vas raised, but realising that this matter does not come within the scope of the Bill, I will not deal with it now, although we must appreciate the fact that the Government have done a great deal, not only in encourag­ing the finding of oilfields, but in the develop­ment of power-alcohol fuel. 'l'he Premier and the Cabinet have submitted many proposals to the Commonwealth with a view to getting its assistance, but on each occasion the pro­posal was turned down.

I do not know how the Leader of the Opposition can accuse this Government of having done nothing to assist the discovery of oil in this State or the manufacture of po.Yer alcohol. I know that the company operating in my electorate is very thankful for the aid given by the Government. At one stage it was able to operate for only two months in the year, but with the passing of the necessary legislation by this Government it is now able to \York during the whole 12 months. Other States are not prepared to help along the lines followed by the Queens­land GoYernment. I say, Mr. Speaker, that the Leader of the Opposition is entirely ignorant of the position if he states that the Government of Queensland have not rendered assistance to the power-alcohol industry.

. Ifi~. :iliaher: Not in the way of extend­mg 1t.

lUr. WALSH: They have extended it. The hon. gentleman does not appreciate the fact that the production of the power-alcohol industry has grown from 200,000 gallons to 1,000,000 gallons in 18 months or two years. The position now is that two additional factories can be established if the Common­wealth Government will only assist in the matter. Private interests have indicated to the CommomYealth Government that they are

1939-3M

prepared to build distilleries, but Mr. Casey, the Minister for Supply, has turne·d the pro­posals down. The Leader of the Opposition was not fair in making the suggestion he did, because anybody associated with the industry realises that this Government have done a great deal to help the power-alcohol industry.

Itir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.52 a .. m.) : I rise to support the Bill.

Ifir. IfiOORE (Aubigny) (11.52 a.m.): I have no complaints to make against the Bill; in fact, it seems to be a reasonable proposal and it is desirable that conditions should be made as attractive as possible to encourage the investment of capital in an endeavour to locate oil. The thing that staggers me is the suggestion made by the hon. member for Warrego. He virtually said that the idea was to ensure that people would have an attrac­tive proposal put before them to obtain or endeavour to obtain supplies of oil, but as soon as oil 1vas discovered there \Yas nothing to stop the Queensland Government from altering the )l.ct, and reducing the areas of the leases-taking a•my all the advantages gi.-en in the first place. I never heard of such a proposition before-that people 1vere to be encouraged to prospect for oil but as soon as oil was discovered the Act could be altered and those investing the capital would be depriYed of the advantages of the money put into the prospecting work.

:ilir. Walsb: They might not nee cl the rest of the area.

Jir. :iliOORE: It is not a question of their not needing the rest of the area or whether they want it, but whether the Govern­me!1t will tell them that if they do want it they cannot have it.

The Secretary for :iliines: No company would begin operations unless it was properly protected.

:ilir. :iliOORE: People will not be encour­aged to start, if the Bill is only a blind to obtain the necessary expenditure of capital and as soon as oil is discovered the law will be altered. The hon. member suggested that they would not be allowed to keep the leases given them; he said that the area would be cut down to probably 60 acres. That is a highly damaging statement when a Bill is introduced into this House with the idea of encouraging the investment of capital. I remember very well that when the first Petroleum Bill •ms brought clown to this House the \Yhole idea behind it was not to allow foreign companies to come into Queensland and prospect for oil-keep the State for the genuine small prospectors who it \Yas said should receive the advantages derived from the finding of oil.

Ever since then the Government have twisted and turned, but they now come to a realisation of the fact that oil can be found only by the investment of huge sums of money. It takes an extraordinary amount of money to discover oil unless, as the hon. member for Warrego explained, one is extraordinarily

1790 Petroleum Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

lucky in striking a supply with the :first 'blind stab.

lUr. Bedford: Did you say that I said that the Government would withhold a lease from somebody and give it to somebody else~

Itir. II'IOORE: No, I did not say that. I did sav that the hon. member said that the leases 'that would be granted under the Bill would not be allowed to stand.

Mr. Bedford: I said that every lease would be considered on its merits.

"ilir. ItiOORE: The hon. member said that the person who found oil would not be allowed to hold his area.

"ilir. Bedford: To everyone else, with the €xception of your suspicious mind, it is clear that what I said was that the leases would be ·considered on their merits.

Mr. MOO RE: It is not a question of eonsidering merits at all. The Bill provides for the granting of a license and later the granting of a lease.

lUr. Bedford: A lease may be granted.

lUr. 11-IOORE: The hon. member got up nnd suggested that only one lease would be granted, and that the area would be consider­nbly cut down.

Mr. Bedford: I did not say anything of the sort; that is what you say I said.

Mr. lUOORE: All right. The hon. mem­ber can say that he said that. I do not know what he thinks he said, but he certainly did say that the Government would alter the basis Bf the lease am1 the terms and limit the area of the lease. This Bill is put forward with the idea of inducing people to invest their money in the search of oil.

_Itir. Bedford: I deny what you say I sard, and I want ;vou to accept my denial.

"ilir. JUOORE: I will accept the hon. mem­ber's denial, but I listened very carefully to what he said.

Itir. Bedford: Then you do not know the meaning of words.

Itir. lUOORE: I was paralysed at his sug­gestion.

lUr. Bedford: Probably you were para­lysed before you heard me.

lUr. lUOORE: I was staggered at his sug­gestion that the area ·would be limited after oil hail been discovered.

lUr. Bedford: Nobody but a person with a paralysed lnain would say that I meant other than that the leases would be considered on their merits.

Itir. MOO RE: Under this Bill the Crown will grant a lease for a certain area.

The Premier: No lease granted under this Bill will be interfered with during its currency.

Jir. JUOORE: That is what I should expect.

The Premier: And that is the position, too.

Itir. lUOORE: That is what I should expect, and I was staggered when the hon. member for \Van·ego put forward the deliberate suggestion--

Mr. Bedl'ord: Nonsense! Anyone who was not staggered and paralysed would say that ·what I said was that the leases would be considered on their merits.

Mr. JUOORE: There is no question of merits at all; that does not come into the matter. A person is given a license, and when oil is found he is given a lease. No question of merit is involved. A lease is given to a person who has been successful in finding oil. There is no question of the lease's being cut down to a minimum area, as the hon. member for vV arrego said.

lUr. Bedford: Mr. Speaker, I asked the hon. gentleman to accept my denial.

Itir. ~WORE: I accepted it. Evidently I misunderstood what the hon. member was driving at, but it certainly sounded very extraordinary to me that he should put forward the ·idea--

::ur. Bedford: You were both paralysed and staggered.

Mr. MOO RE: The hon. member may be upset, because he allowed his tongue to run mvay with him.

Itir. Bedford: I am upset at your mis­representation, although not a great deal.

Itir. ~WORE: He put forward the sug­gestion, apparently, that the area was to be reduced, whereas the Bill has been introduced for a very definite purpose.

Itir. Bedford: I am sorry that I said anything about the Bill, because you will keep on prattling for an hour.

lUr. :lliOORE: Not at all.

Mr. Bedford: There is no law against prattling.

Itir. l!IOORE: No, there is no law against prattling.

There are several provisions in the Bill of which I approve. For instance, I thoroughly agree with the proposed reduction in rental, and I also agree with the proposal for the deduction of Tent from the royalty to be paid :Jfter oil has been found. It makes provision that prospectors who stTike only small quanti­ties of oil will not have to pay as much royalty as those who strike large quantities because they will deduct their rent from the royalty.

There aTe provisions in this Bill, also, that make it possible for the Minister to permit a suspension of drilling operations. Under the pTesent Act, once the Minister gave an ordeT drilling had to be continued irrespective of whether the prospectors could :find sufficient capital, and if they could not comply with the order the penalty was forfeiture of the lease. 'fhis Bill gives the opportunity to the Minister in certain circumstances to authorise the

Petroleum Acts [22 NovEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1791

suspension of drHling, in order that the pros­pectors can obtain capital with which to con­tinue. In fact, many provisions in this Bill appear to be wise. It encourages a company to seek sufficient capital to go on.

I believe with the hon. member for War­rego that it is almost impossible to believe there is no oil to be found in Queensland, especially when we remember the flow of petroliferous gas that was struck at Roma, from which a large quantity of petrol was extracted through the process of collecting the gas and processing it.

Mr. Power: Do you know they drove a car round Brisbane on Roma oil~

ltlr. ltiOORE: Roma oil was sold in Rbma for a long period. There were tanks full of it. Boilers heated with the gas supplied power to some plants. There is certainly petrol in the Roma district, but the trouble is that the expense of getting it is too great for it to be commercially profitable.

I merely rose because I wanted to get the assurance I got from the Premier-that there was not to be any reduction of the lease held by a prospector after he discovered oil.

The Premier: It is quite definite that no interference will be permitted by the law.

ltlr. M.OORE: All I want to know is that the conditions under which such a lease was obtained would not be interfered with under those conditions.

The Premier: There will not be any interferenoo.

Mr. MOO RE: I am quite satisfied.

Dr. WATSON BROWN (Gregory) (12.3 p.m.) : Prospecting for petroleum in this State must be encouraged. As I remarked on the introductory stage of this Bill, oil l:!as been found in small quantities throughout the western parts of the State, and any Bill that will assist in discovering oil is well worth while. In the prospecting for oil that went on in this State several years ago, oil was found in the Longreach district, and found in quite a reasonable quantity, but, owing to difficulties caused by water that got into the bore, it was impossible to obtain that oil. I saw oil coming up from the Longreach bore. As a matter of fact; I have some samples of it at home now, and those samples contain quite a )arge proportion of. pure .petroleu~. In the artesian belt, water difficulties make It impossible to get the oil, as the water fills the bore. Owing to the impossibility of getting further finance to continue boring in that section of the country, the work was discon­tinued, but we still believe there is a vast quantity of oil there. It may be possible, by granting larger leases to prospecting com­panies and in other ways helping them to obtain finance, ultimately to find petroleum in the artesian basin. I was told by Dr. Woolnough, the oil expert of the Common­wealth Government, that the West of Queens­land particularly the area round Longreach and 'down to Ruthven, gave the best indica-

tions of oil of any district in Australia; the difficulty was the artesian water.

It requires a considerable amount. of capi­tal to prospect for oil, and it seems to me that the Bill will give outside capital a chance to do this prospecting; it will bring finance into the country and attract the money neces­sary to go on with the big boring and shut off the water. ·

Another aspect of our petroleum supplies in Queensland that appears remarkable to me is the little use we are making of our power alcohol. There has been an increase in produc­tion, but many more millions ?f gallons co~ld be made available. Some mterest. outside Queensland must be preventing this from taking place. Although this Government have done a good deal in that regard, they s~ould do more to exploit the power-alcohol busmess in Queensland.

I think the Bill will assist in the introduc­tion of capital and the surveying of oil areas in Queensland. For those reasons, I have much pleasure in supporting it.

The SECRETARY FOR :!tUNES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (12.7 p.m.), in reply: As to the question r;tised by the hon. member for Aubigny, I point out that the Bill lays down that certain areas shall be allocated for prospecting on, and the discoverer of o.il has certain rights to take up a lease. I did not understand the hon. member for Warrego to say that any interference would take place with the discoverer of oil and the leases that were already granted.

Mr. Maher: You look at "Hansard" and you will find he did.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The Leader of the Opposition must have interpre­ted the remarks of the hon. member for Warrego differently. I understood the hon. member for W arrego to say that after the oil was dis0overed no Government would allow big areas to be taken up. Under the Bill, the Government have power to grant a lease of any size they may determine. It also contains provision to enable a lease to be granted to anyone who has put money into prospecting, and has discovered oil. That P!O­vision will be carried out., whatever the s1ze of the lease and no contract entered into will be abrogat~d by the GovBrnment. I under­stood the hon. member for W arrego to say that any further lease granted by the Govern­ment would not necessarily be on the larger scale. That is the right principle to adopt. Once oil is discovered there is no need to give what is known in America as a reward lease. The discoverer of oil gets what is known as a reward lease. There will be no abrogation of any contract rights under the Bill. One;e the Bill is placed on the statute-book It becomes the law of the land, and the Govern­ment will not break that law.

In reply to the Leader of the Opposition, I might mention the fact that the Government are taking every possible step to encour~ge Dther industries to undertake the productiOn of power alcohol, and our efforts in that

1792 Petroleum Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

direction will be continued. If we can get free oil and use it in conjunction with other industries, that will be done.

Motion (:\!fr. Gledson) agreed to.

COJYIMITTEE.

(Mr. O'Keefe, Cairns, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 and 2, as read, agreed to.

Clause 3-New section 9A; Authority to prospect-

The SECRETARY FOR :iliiNES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (12.10 p.m.): .l n1ove the following amendment:-

''On page 2, line 8, omit the word­' Cro\vn.' ''

This is for the purpose of giving the authority to prospect under this Bill that at the present we have under the Mining on Private Land Act. The retention of the word ''Crown'' would exclude prospecting for oil on freehold land, which would have to be done under the Mining on Private Land Acts. The amendment will bring the Bill ~nto conformity with that measure, as we m tended.

Amendment agreed to.

The SECRETARY FOR :iliiNES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (12.11 p.m.): l move the following amendment:-

''On page 2, after line 24, insert the following new subclause:-

' (3.) Compensation under this Act shall be payable by the holder of an au~hority to prospect on any private land or Improved land before he enters thereon, and for the purpose of determining such compensation all of the provisions of this Act relating to the determination (whether by agreement or by the warden's court) of the compensation payable by a p8l'mittoo or lessee shall, mutatis mutandis, apply and extend.' ''

The amendment is necessary to supplement the amendme11t previously made and applies the provisions of the MininO' on Private Land Acts to land under this pa~ticular Act.

ffir. lUAHEI{ (West Moreton) (12.13 p.m.) : I find it rather difficult to follow the :tn1en(hncnt, \Vhich deals \vith compensation fo_r damage to private property by a per­nuttec. Unl1er section 14 of the Act a permittee mu_st give security for damage before a pemnt is grrmted. I find it difficult to unde1;~ta_nd the words, ''before he enters thereon, 1n the amendment. How can a permittee give security for damages of an nnkno,Yn amount? How is this compensation to be determined in advance 9 I can under­stand that after he has entered on the land and some damage has been done it would be possible t? assess the extent of compensation, but _how 1s the amount of compensation for poss1ble damage to be arrived at before he enters upon the land 9

The SECRETARY FOR ~HNES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (12.15 p.m.) : This clause provides faT the payment of com'pen· sation for damage done in prospecting on private land. TheTe may not be any need to exeTcise this provision, because most of the areas that aTe likely to be affected are either CTown land or land leased fTom the Crown. There aTe, l10wever, some fTeehold lands in the districts that will be covered by these authorities to pTospect. If it is found necessary to go on those lands for the purpose, say, of sinking a well, then aTrangements can be made by the company proposing to sink the well with the owner of the land as to the amount of compensation payable. This agree­ment is made before the company goes on the land. If there is any doubt as to what amount shall be payable the matter may be referred to the vmrden for determination. It is thought wise, in the interests of the owner, to provide that this agreement shall be arrived at before entry upon the land.

:ilir. )Iaher: The principal Act provides for security and payment for any damage done to private property. Does not this seem somewhat redwndantW

The SECRETARY FOR :iliiNES: It is thouo-ht wise to allow the parties to negotiate betw~en themselves aml to enter into an agree­ment instead of making a hard and fast rule that certain things shall be done. If agree­ment cannot lbe arrived at between the parties, then the matter can be referred to the warden faT determination.

Amendment (Mr. Gledson) agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 12, both inclusive, as read, agreed to.

Clause 13-N ew section 29A; Lease to persun other than permittee-

Tlle SECRETARY "FOR llHNES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (12.19 p.m.): I move the following amendment-

'' On page 4, line 12, after the ·word 'permit,' insert the words-

' 'and not being land proclaimecl as not being open to permit or lease under section 9 of this Act, unless such person holr1s an authority to prospec.t within such proclaimed area. ' ''

This clause ghTes the right to tak0 up a lease >vitholtt a permit, and this amendment is con­sidered desirable for the protection of the holder of an authorit-y to prospect. It is thought desirable to provide that the holder of an authority to prospect may also take up a permit and so be protected a.gainst another person's operating on the area on which he is already prosrpecting.

Amendment agreed to.

Cl a use 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 14 to 19, both inclusi,·e, as read, agreed to.

Bill reported, with amendments.

Harbour Boards Acts, &c., [22 NOVEMBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1793

THIRD READIXG.

Bill, on motion of :i'lfr. Gledson, read a third time.

HARBOUR BOARDS ACTS AND ANOTHER "\CT AMEND::\fENT BILL.

SECOND READIXG.

Tl!e TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Brcmer) (12.23 p.m.): I move-

'' That the Bill be now read a second time.''

In the introductory stages I gave a fairly full explanation of the contents of the Bill, but in addition to what I said then I state no-...v that the Harbour Boards .A ... cts, 1S92 to 1928, contain general provisions with regard to all harbour boards. Those Act~, however, did not constitute the individual harbour boards. Individual harbour boards were con­stituted under their own Acts and upon con­stitution became subject to the principal Act. Generally, harbour board districts comprise several local authority areas and in some diYisions of local authority areas are included. The boundaries of districts are dependent upon the Local Government Act. During the introductory stage of this Bill I explained that certain alterations in boundaries took place. It. was necessary to make alterations to the boundaries of the divisions of the shire of Ayr and these divisions affect the Harbour Boards of Townsville and Bowen. Informa­tion came to the Treasury too late to give legislative authority last session to make the necessary alterations, but on the advice sought and' given the election to the Townsville Harbour Board of a representative for that part of the district round about Ayr >Yas conducted as if the original divisions were still in existence. In the same way the election for the Bowen Harbour Board was conducted as if the original divisions were still in existence. The people really entitled to vote were allowed to exercise the vote, and action is being taken now to validate what >Yas done then.

I also explained that power is being sought to gi,-e the harbour boards greater control of matters relating to the entry of persons to wharves. Since my introductory speech I l1avc looked into the matter further, and I am satisfied beyond doubt that the harbour boards should have this increased power.

The only matter that gave the Committee some concern on the inh'oductory stage was the provision relating to money forms, and I take the opportunity to explain the matter a little more fully so that hon. members may thoroughly understand the position. I took the opportunity to investigate the matter, and I shall rearl the arh-ice that I received to the House so that hon. members may have a complete understanding of the matter-

" In all local authorities, hospitals boards, am1 commodity boards, as "·ell as all Gm-ermncnt clenartmcnts. JJrovision exists in Acts or reg~ulations fo; the obtaining of all money forms from the Government

Printer, whose imprint appears on all these forms. This is the only method by which I can control the printing, numbering, and 'set up' of money forms, and because of this rigid control, it is ensured that auditors are furnished >Yith particulars of the money forms which must be produced to them at an audit. Through this control of all money forms, irregularities in connec·tion there>Yith are practically unknown. It would be most unwise to allow any printer, nondescript or otherwise, to be allowed to print such forms, and for me to depend on him for ad.-ice of the particulars of the forms printed.

''I can confidently state that under any other system than that operating, the effici­ency of audits would be considerably reUueeU. J J

Mr. lUaher: Whose statement is that?

The TREASURER: 'l'hat is a statement prepared for me by the Auditor-General. I am sure that the House will be satisfied that there is no desire to do anything but -ensure that the necessary rigid regulations that are observed by other local authorities should be observed also by the two harbour boards mentioned.

Mr. Brand: It cuts out local labour.

T1te TREASURER: The amount of local labour that it >Youlcl cut out is infinitesimal. How many receipt books would the 'l'ownsville Harbour Bom·d use in a year? The amonnt involved would not be enough to pay for the oil upon the platen.

Mr. 1\'Iaher: It applies not only to the Towns.-ille ancl Cairns Harbour Boards, but also to other semi-governmental bodies.

The TREASURER: The other semi­governmental bodies have been observing the provision in the past.

JUr. }fall er: A principle is involved.

Tlle TREASURER: The matter was raised by the Auditor-General some years ago, and an appropriate provision >vas enacted in respect to certain semi-governmental bodies. I am satisfied that it is a very wise provision.

I also explained that clause 7 will give the l\Iackay Harbour Board power to make a by-law prm-iding for the payment of a fee to members of the constntction committee who were and still are supervising the construction of the outer harbour. The construction of the harbour entailed a considerable amount of \YOl'k in addition to the ordinarv work of the harbour board. ::\Iany meetings had to be held by this committee and it did its >York parti­cularly >.-ell. Of course, the by-law will have to be submitted to the Treasury for approval, anl1 so there need be no fear that anything wrong will be done by the ::\Iackay Harbour Board in this respect.

Representations have been mac1e by the committee to the Treasurer. The Govern­ment think it is only fair anc1 reasonable to pass this clause to authorise the payment of a fee for their ser.-ices.

1794 Harbour Boards Acts, &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

Mr. ltiaher: From September, 1937, seems a long time to lapse before anything was done.

Tl1e TREASURER: H is about a couple of years. Representations were made to the Government some time in the 1938 session. A Bill to provide for the payment of these fees could have come on earlier in the ses­sion, but >Ye did not want to amend this Act in one respect only, when it was known that other matters were likely to be incorporated in an amending Bill.

ltir. Daniel: What is the maximum allow­ance~

The TREASURER: The allowance will be a small one. The members of the com· mittee are allowed out-of-pocket expenses, lbut they haYe given an amount of time that is worthy of compensation, too. The amount of the allowance has not yet been fixed, but it will not be an exorbitant one.

ltir. Daniel: You will have jurisdiction over it~

The TREASURER: I shall. The by-law will have to be approved by the Governor in Council. I am satisfied tha't the members of the Committee will not ask for an exorbitant fee.

ltir. MAHER (West Moreton) (12.36 p.m.) : There is not much in this Bill to which I can object. The provision for the issuing of an Order in Council to overcome difficulties in harbour board elections caused by changes in local government areas is a necessary and common-sense one. So is the provision to prohibit unauthorised persons from entering a wharf. Great damage might be done by permitting unauthorised persons to enter wharves and possibly undermining their foundations. We must remember that the nation is at war and we must take pre­cautions to obviate such dam·age.

We have been at variance, not only with the Treasurer, but with other Ministers with respect to legislation providing for the print­ing of money forms, better known to hon. members as receipt books. It is difficult for us to understand why the printing of receipt lbooks could not be entrusted by semi-local governmental bodies to local printers.

The Treasurer: There is no reflection on the local printeT.

Mr. MAHER: I know, but he has to keep a staff and is dependent on local work. It is a bad principle to divert work from semi­governmental bodies in our cities and towns in the country districts to the Government Printer. I feel that this printing should be done by the local printer under a special arrangement with the Auditor-General. He could carry out all the requirements as to numbering, &c., laid down by the Auditor­General. None of these requirements of the Auditor-General are insuperable. If the Auditor-General laid do>Yn a method, system, or formula to country printers, they could execute the work as efficiently as the Government Printe1·. Instructions have to be

given to the Governm'ent Printer to keep the sequence in numbering, and such an instruc­tion could be carried out by the local printeT. It is a difficulty that can be overcome. This is a case of: '' \Vhere there's a will there's a way. '' If the :Minister was disposed to give work to the local printer he could get the Auditor-General to lay down the terms and conditions under which this form could be printed in :order to secure protection against possible dishonesty of officials employed by semi-governmental bodies. The tendency these days is to take printing work of that kind away from the country printer who finds it increasingly difficult to compete against the big firms in the city, who, on account of standardised methods and mass production, can undeTcut him. The Govemment should give a lead in helping the country printer to maintain himself, and should not take work away from him and give it to the Govemment Printer or indeed to any city printer. I ani not particularly antagonistic to the Government Printer; it is the principle I am concerned with-to maintain and expand our country industries whatever they are and wherever they are. Although this is a relatively small matteT the principle involved is important. The Auditor-General could easily indicate to the country printers what he required. I once more make a protest on :behalf of the hon. members of the Country Party against this diversion of printing from the country centres to the city. After all, the country printer is on the spot, and he is entitled to whatever work is offering in the district. If we do not make a protest in this matter pressure may be brought to bear on a Minister to have other books printed by the Government Printer instead of country printers on some pretext or other.

Power is taken to enable the 1\fackay Har­bour Board to make a by-law providing for the payment of the· construction committee appointed by the board. I do not know the circumstances connected with the appoint­ment of the construction committee, but I noticed that after the failure of the con­tractor extra work had to be undertaken by certain members of the board, whereas if anything had run to schedule the work of the members of the committee might not have been very great. 'l'herefore, it is felt that they are entitled to some renumeration for their services, and nobody can reasona!bly object to that. However, it is a rather belated way of honouring this duty to the members of the construction committee. I should like to know if they took this work on in an honorary capacity at the outset or if there was an understanding that they were to be paid, and, if the latter is the case, when the obligation to pay arose.

The Treasurer: They did suggest they should get a fee and they were told the nl'a tter would be considered.

Mr. MAHER: Would that be when they undertook the extra duty.

The Treasurer: Some little time after­wards they made a suggestion, when they found it was going to be such a big job.

Harbour Boards Acts, &c., [22 NovEMBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1795

lUr. }IAHER: There woud be circum­stances that warranted some remuneration for those jobs undertaken by good citizens in an honorary capacity. There are special circumstances that I know of in connection ·with the :\Iackay Harbour scheme that did impose extra work on and took up much time of the members of the construction committee. It seems reasonable enough to allow the board to make by-laws authorising reasonable payment to members of the committee. That \Yill be subject to approval by the Minister in due course, and, therefore, there does not appear to be anything in that respect in the Bill to which we can raise objection.

JUr. RL"SSELL (Hamilton) (12.41 p.m.) : 'We are in agreement with the principle of the payment to members of the committee of the Mackay Harbour Board. Two years ago I had an opportunity of inspecting these works. The chairman of the board, Mr. C. Bagley, was good enough to take me over to the site one Sunday, and I saw the vast amount of \York that had been done by mem­bers of the board. I understand this board was originally constituted of members of the Mackay Town Council. The aldermen of the council undertook the supervision of this \Vork, but at that time they had no conception of the Yast amount of labour and time that would be entailed. There is no doubt it has been a tremendous task. Like the course of true love, the ·work did not progress as smoothly as \vas expected. The board met with many vicissitudes. It had to contend with troubles as regards plant and the organi­sation of the staff. The members of the board did a h-emendous amount of \York and it is only right that they be compensated in some way or other. No person expects members of a local authority who are work­ing in an honorary capacity on behalf of their fellow citizens to undertake control of such a large enterprise as the Jliiackay Har­bour without some compensation, and the recognition by the Bill of their services should be welcome to them, and quite acceptable to the House. The work has been finished, but I understand these gentlemen will continue to act as members of the board and I have no doubt that some recompense must be made to them for the services they will render in the future. In the main, I agree with the attitude of the Government in deciding to pay these men from a certain elate. As the labourer is worthy of his hire, so gentlemen who have acted in an honorary capacity as members of the board are entitled to be remunerated for the vast amount of trouble they have been put to and the great job that has been completed under their supervision. i\Iy hope is that the board will meet with good fortune and no deficits ·will be piled up.

The Leader of the Opposition alluded to the small matter of the printing of certain forms required by harbour boards. In the main, I agree that the Government Printer is entitled to business from all government departments, but no general rule should be laid down for semi-governmental departments particularly those that are exercising authority outside the Brisbane area. It ia

not Yery convenient for, say, the Cairns Harbour Board, to lmvc to order its stationery from Brisbane when it could obtain its requirements from- local pri1rters. A ·good policy to follow is to give rrll local suppliers of commodities preference over those situated in other centres. I clo not believe in the centralisation of supplies for the whole of the State in Brisbane, except, of course, in Government departments, where concentra­tion of \York in one centre means that the work can be clone more cheaply. Even then, I think there are times when local people should get some part of the business.

There seems to be some conflict of opinion as to what constitutes money forms. The only forms that I think can be considered as such are cheques, drafts, and acceptances. I think that the contention of the harbour boards so far as receipt forms are con­cerned is correct. They should be permitted to buy such forms from local suppliers. As a general rule, local authorities, ha.rbour boards, and other semi-governmental authori­ties that are controlling purely domestic matters should be entitled to buy ail their supplies from local printers or dealers; they should not be forced to buy anything from Brisbane at all.

Of course, the Auditor-General has made certain demands. It should be enough for him to see to it that only money forms, such as cheques, drafts and acceptances, are sup­plied by the Government Printer. Outside of that I think these boards should be allowed to obtain their wants wherever they like. I think the local people should b·e supported in preference to the Brisbane traders. In these small communities they are all living one on the other, and it is only right that as much trade should be clone locally as possible.

The other clauses of the Bill are unexcep­tionable, and I must commend the common sense of the clerk who arranged the rolls for the elections mentioned in the Bill. His action shows that at any rate we have amongst local authorities some men who can be depended upon to clo the right thing in emergency. I have much pleasure in support­ing the Bill.

The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) ( 12.49 p.m.), in reply: I want to assure hon. members opposite that they arc vie>Ying the printing of receipt books from an entirely wrong angle. It is not a question of centralisation of printing; it is an endeavour to take every precaution to help the Auditor-General, and what is being done is being clone at his request.

I join issue with the hon. member for Hamilton in his submission that receipt forms are not money forms. After ~n, >Yhat is a cheque until it is presented to the bank~ A mere slip of paper, possibly of no value, and a receipt form is of no value until a signa­ture is placed upon it or perhaps the neces· sary duty stamp is affixed to it. Then it definitely becomes a mone:r form.

Let me remind the House of what would have to be done if receipt books were obtained

1796 Harbour Boards, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Brisbane City Council, &c., Bill.

locally. I have no wish to take any particu­lar part of the State as an example, but sup­pose .the Drayton harbour board-(laughter) -needed receipt books. They would probably be printed locally within the town of Dray­ton. There are within that town nine printers and there being nine printers it would be necessary to call tenders. That would entail the publication of advertisements in the two daily papers of Drayton-the Drayton ''Times'' and the Drayton ''Observer''­all causing unnecessary expense, circumlocu­tion, and delay. I can only say that it is piling expense upon expense. 'Moreover, the local printer would need to make a return to the Auditor-General that on such-and-such a day at the order of such-and-such a local authority he issued certain receipt books numbered so and so to so and so. No greater complaint is made in this House than the complaint of haYing to fill in forms at the direction of the Government. Ewry hon. member of the Opposition refers at some time during the session to what a gTeat trial it is to people to he continually filling in forms at the behest of this GoYernment.

lUr. Maher: You never spoke truer words.

The TREASURER: And, as the Premier has just reminded me, the greatest difficulty is to get them to run true to form. \V e desire to eliminate these difficulties, and we wish to help the Auditor-Genera.l in the rigid i1~spection of accounts which it is his duty to make. I have no hesitation in saying that a great insmance society-a. bona-fide insur­ance society, recognised as one of the best in the Gommom1·ealth-gets its receipts printed at one office and keeps records of the receipt books issued to particular offices and particular ageats. That is a common proce­dure in business and all big organi' ations do that sort of thing-OTganisations that adopt business methods. I know of organisations in Brisbane that have agents and representatives throughout the length and breadth of this State and New South Wales and luwe their receipt books pTinted at the one office. Tl1eir audi­tors are informed of all the receipt books issued. Tnke the case of an auditor auditing a set of books and finding a receipt from a partic,nlar harbour board. He could immedi­ately turn up his own record and see if that receipt was one of the receipts issued by the Government Printer.

lUr. RusseH: He would not go that far.

Tile TREASURER: Of course it is neces­sary for him to go that far.

I thank hon. members for the kindly refer­ences to the gentlemen constituting ~he con­struction committee of the :\Iackay ha.rbowr. A week or two ago I had the pleasure of going to Port Kembla, particularly to view the breakwater. It is much on the same style as that at :Mackay, or 1·ather should I say, the J\[ackay harbour is on the same pTin­ciple as Port Kembla. The Port Kembht harbour is not yet completed, but it was started, I should say, 20 years ago. I should also say that it is no better in any respect than the Mackay harbour. Although the

Mackay harbour is not yet complete it is so near completion that it really does not matter. The whole of the job has been done in a short space of time. I feel I can, with­out going outside the bounds of the Bill, pay a tribute to the very fine work that the mem­bers of the Mackay Harbour Construction Committee have performed. I thank the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Nationalist party for the fine references made to the splendid work done by that committee.

M·otion (:Mr. Cooper) agreed to.

COMMITTEE.

(Mr. 0 'Keefe, Cairns, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, agreed to.

Clause 4-Amendment of section 104; By-laws-

lUr. 1\'IAHER (West Moreton) (12.57 p.m.): The Minister said that he had to take action because in one city an unauthorised person had gone on a wharf. As we are at war, it is important that this provision should be enacted. Is the Minister in possession of any information that he can give the Com­mittee concerning the matter; has this pro­vision been inserted in the Bill at the suggestion of the Commonwealth authorities~

The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) (12.59 p.m.): The clause speaks for itself. It is highly desirable that the harbour boards should have this power. Probably, similar power is taken in the ~War Precautions Act, but, as action under that Act would involve a reference to another Government, it is thought w1se, in the light of experience, that the authority on the spot should be able to deal \Yith such matters. It is a very important provision, and one that should be in the Bill.

Clause 4, as read, agreed to.

Clauses 5 to 7, both inclusiw, as read, agreed to.

Bill reported, without amendment.

THIRD READING.

Bill, on motion of l\Ir. Cooper, read a third time.

BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL BUSINESS A="l"D PROCEDURE BILL.

SECOXD RE.\DING.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO:t\'IE A.FFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Itha<'a) (2.16 p.m.): I move-

'' That the Bill be no\v read a second time.''

'l'hcre is not a great deal, :\Ir. SpeakeT, to say at this stage that has not alread;r been said on the initiation of the Bill. The pTinciple of assisting the Brisbane City Council to get

Brisbane City Council. [22 NOVEMBER.) Business and ProoGdure Bill. 1797

its organsation in good order, as the Govern­ment arc doing, must be appro\·cd by every hon. member. The desire of the Government is not in any way to handicap the council in carrying ont its duties to the people or lessen the work the council is doing. On the con­trary, every effort the Government can maka to help the council in doing its work is being made.

It might be suggested that the secondi1~g of an officer of the public service to the ·council for the purpose of staff reorganisa­tion is an interference with its rights and responsibilities. The morning Press, follow­ing its usual tactics-I might say unfair tactics-has selected headlines that give a misleading idea to the people, knowing that, to the unthinking, headlines give the first impression that is usually a very lasting one, and suggests that the Government are install­ing a dictator in the City Hall, who will be in control of the whole of its activities. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Government are sending an officer to the aid of the council, to do what the council has found itself unable to do, namely, to pro­peTly reorganise the staff in a manner that will give the most efficient work to the people.

!Ir. JUacdonald: To dictate to it what to do.

Tile SECRETARY FOR HEALTH ANn HOlliE Al<'J<'AIRS: The hon. member has a distorted idea of the object of the Bill.

l\Ir. l\Iacdonald: I understand English.

The SECRETARY FOR HEAL'fH AND HO]}IE Al<'F AIRS: I do not think that the hon. member can understand it, any more than he can speak it.

]}Ir. lllacdonald: It is a pity about you.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HmiE AFFAIRS: It is no pity at all. The hon. member wants to give his interpretation of English, and I will not accept him as an authority.

I 1vas saying that the officer to be sent to the council is to act in the ea pacity of a servant to the council in the reorganii,ation of its staff. Hon. members opposite have been crying out for the appointment of someone to control the policy of the council.

Mr. JUaher interjected.

The SECRETARY l'OR HEALTH AND HOJ\IE AFFAIRS: The hon. gentleman will have to contain himself until he makes l1is O\Yn speech. If he cannot understand the difference bet1veen a reorganisation of the council staff and the appointment of some­body not elected by the people 1vith authority to tax the people ancl to lay do1vn the policy to be pmsued by the City Council, all I can say is that I am sorry for his lack of under­standing. The hon. gentleman \vas calling out to high heaven for the appointment of some irresponsible body to take full control of the affairs of the city of Brisbane, some ]}ocly not rcsnonsiblc to the electors at all ancf not even ~responsible to the limited body who would have to gowrn the city, namely,

the ratepayers. He would giYe such a body the right to by clown polic·y and say how much work should or should not be done. He would have tha.t body follow the policy pur­sued by the civic commission in Sydney, 1vhich dismissed the whole of the works staff of the council and handed over the job to the tender mercies of contractors, which proved a very costly thing for the city in many respects. Now the hon. gentleman con1-plains because the GoYennnent are sending somebody with authority to reorganise the City Council staff so that it 1vill gi vc better se nice to the people. I do not think the hon. gentle­man can sustain the case for the eontention that the officers of the council have been working efficienUy. Sufficient was quoted last evening to show that the Government­anc1 I think the people of the city-are not satisfied that the services of the council have been organised on a proper basis or that the requisite responsibility is placecl on the proper officers in the various sections of the council's service.

One thing that is desirable, which it is proposed to do in the future, is to give the staff of the council the same protection that is afforded to 11ublie servants under the Public Service Acts. That is a task that will take much thinking out; it is not a job that can be clone hurriedly. It is necessary in a public service of the size of that controlled by the council that the administrative staff should be trained in the council service. Youths \Yho enter the service young could be trained in the tra(lition of service to the people that is characteristic of the training in the State public service. It is important that they should have the security afforded to publie sermnts by the Public Service Act, and that they should have the right of appeal against appointments and promotions as well as the right of appeal against punishment that they have to-day. In that way there would be perhaps a greater feeling of secur· ity amongst officers of the council, and the favouritism that b practised a great deal more by senior officers than it has even been practised by aldermen can be rmt an end to aml ofliccrs encouraged to believe their advancement in the service is limited only by their capacity ancl industry in their work.

The hon. member fOT Toowong, after quot­ing some distorted figures and misstating them, said that the Government had deserted the Brisbane City Council and left it in a hole. In other words, he endeavoured to support the propaganda that is going on in the city at the present time, that this Govern­ment were in some way responsible for the money shortage that the council has experi­enced.

Mr. }Ias:sey: Almost half the money shortage.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOJ:iiE Al<'J<'AIRS: The hon. member mis­stated the case; he either does not under­stand the report or he is deliberately mis­stating the case. Yesterday afternoon he stated that the GoYemment in certain years

1798 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

had given a total of £5,000,000 to the City Council by IYay of grants.

JUr. Jllassey: Three million odd.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOIUE AF.FAIRS: Of £5,000,000 they bor­ro,Yed. That is not true; neither is it stated in the report that the hon. member quoted from. I will give the figures conectly. The Government's subsidy to the Brisbane City Council for 1934-35 amounted to £361,661. In the same year the Government paid in wages to relief workers £576,280. The hon. member added these sums together and saicl that the total was the Government grant to the council for that year.

Mr. Massey: It was.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AF.FAIRS: The hon. member either does not understand figures or is deliberately misquoting them.

I\Ir. I\Iassey: Surely you do not pose as a mathematician?

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOJIE A.FFAIRS: No, I am endeavouring to be just an ordinary individual and perhaps if the hon. member would endeavour to be an honest man he would do much better; he would be much fairer to the Brisbane City Council and to the people of Queensland if he endeavoured to be an honest man and quoted the figures correctly. To suggest that the wages paid to the relief workers by the State has been a grant or subsidy to local authorities is ridiculous. The money was paid only because these men were on relief.

lUr. Nimmo: They were doing work for the council.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS: Quite right, but it was not a subsidy to the council. It was money paid for labour, whether it IYa.s work done on parks, school grounds, public build­ing's, or gardens. It was not in any way a subsidy. Surely the hon. member is not going to suggest that now that relief work is gone the same amount should be paid by the Government to the council1 If it is paid to the Brisbane City Council, must it not be paid to every other council in Queensland¥ Is it possible to maintain a new system of permanent grants to local authorities throughout the State equivalent to the amount that was required when unemployment was at its peak and when relief had to be paid to unemployed people~ The Government have aided every local authority in Queensland in exactly the same way.

In 1935-36 the amount of £621,516 was paid in Brisbane as relief to the unemployed. The sum of £330,000 was pairl as subsidy to the city of Brisbane on work that it was doing to give relief to unemployment. It had in its turn to borrow money in order to get that subsidy.

In 1936-37 the amount of relief was -£612,831 and subsidies were paid for full­time work done by the council amounting to £305,538.

In 1937-38, £607,836 was paid for relief work in Brisbane and £352,862 as a subsidy for full-time work.

In 1938-39 the City Council increased its borrowing from £800,000 to £1,000,000 and consequently there 1vas not the justification for subsidy to the same extent. The subsidy granted that year for the work it was doing was £131,736.

I\Ir. IUassey: It borrowed less that year than the year before.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO::UE AFFAIRS: That is what the council budgeted to borrow and the Government budgeted to give that sum to them. In 1939-40, relief work having entirely ceased, the subsidy budgeted for by the Government as a grant to the City Council was £100,000; the council again having had the approval of the Loan Council for the bonowing of £1,000,000 to carry out development work. Of the subsidy for 1939-40 £42,900 had been made available up to 31 October, leaving £57,100 due to the council on its qualifying therefor by the expenditure from its funds for work done-the subsidy is not payable until the work is clone. That applies to subsi­dies given to local autl<orities throughout the State. Local authorities get the subsidy for work done when the work is clone, and when no further work is going on, naturally, the subsidy ceases.

INhere further work is gone on >vith and application is made for a subsidy, the subsidy is always available from the Government to encourage useful developmental work. Under that policy the majority of our towns and cities in Queensland have obtained splendid ·water supplies, and, in many cases, excellent sewerage serdces for the benefit, comfort, and safety of the people in the areas con­corned. When that job is finished and the subsidy is paid, that is the end of that subsidy and that job, and it is not until a new job that the Governme11t approve of as being worth a subsidy is undertaken that a further subsidy becomes claimable by a local authority and payable by the Government to that body.

Far from having deserted the council when the financial embargo was placed upon it, when the friends of the hon. member who had this complaint to make c-losed up the money resomces of this and other councils throughout the Commonwealth, all of whom had to cease work, all of whom had to put off the staffs that \Yere engaged on develop­mental and construction works when that position was brought about by the Tories in the CommomYealth Parliament-far from deserting the council, the State Government again came to its aiel. From Government Loa;1 Funds we made available to the City Council £100,000 to enable them to carry on. Natur­ally this meant that the Government had £100 000 less for their loan works. Surely the hon. member does not believe the fairy­story that Governments have some mag1c source from which unlimited sums can be

Brisbane City Council [22 NovEMBER.] Business and Procedure Bill. 1799

produced at any time anybody asks for them~ The Government have their own Budget to administer, and when that £100,000 was granted to the council as a loan for the pur­pose of enabling it to carry on loan works until funds should be available through public borrowing-and it was expected that no great difficulty would be experienced in obtaining the money that the Loan Council had approved of the council's borrowing-it meant that we had £100,000 less with which to cal'l'y on our own programme.

In addition to that loan, the Government approved of a further overdraft of £100,000 Tv·hich they bl.l.ct:r<1Iltccd ar..d a.u.thv:rised. "\'\Tith the £43,000, the £100,000 loan from our own Loan Funds, and another £100,000 guaranteerr to the bank ·with regard to its overdraft, the Government of Queensland have helped the Brisbane City Council this year to the extent of £243,000. Surely the hon. member is not going to say that that is deserting a local authority; that that is leaving it in the lurch! 'l'hat is not deserting the City council. All I can say is that if ever the hon. member is in difficulties himself, I am sure he will appreciate the friend who will desert him to that extent and who will help him in the -same proportion as we are helping the council.

In a.ddition to the actual relief given to the Brisbane City Council, moneys have been used out of the fund that is now obtained from the State development tax for relief works. A sum at least equivalent to the amount paid to relief ·workers whom the Citv Council was <>mploying on valuable full-time work in the vicinity of Brisbane has been taken from that somcc. In the country areas surround­Brisbane more than that amount is being -spent on full-time \York, with the result that alihough £600,000 wrrs expended on inter­mittent relief \Yorks when unemployment was at its height, and £607,836 was paid in 1937-38. J\1ore than that amount has been spent in the vicinity of Brisbane in giving full-time work to men who would otherwise be unemployed. Although it would not figure in the amount of relief money that was paid to men who were available to do odd jobs for the ·City Council-those men were not avail­able to do developmental work-more than that amount has been spent in giving full­time valuable \YOrk to that number of people.

Those figures were all budgeted for long before there was any knowledge that there would be a shortage in the Loan Funds avail­able to the Brisbane City Counc-il, and long lwfore we lmcl any knowledge that there would be a \Yar with consequent contraction of loan credits to local authorities.

In coming to the assistance of the council in that emergency the Government acted both liberally and wisely. vVe were not snre at that time how much money we were going to have to spend ourselves. \Vhile I know hon. members opposite would be pleased to see the State Government in the position of hav­ing to sack men, let me tell them that they will be sadly disappointed. But is it not obvious that every pound the Government give to some other party to spend is a pound

less the Government have to spend on unem­ployment~ All this moaning of hon. mem­bers opposite is because the State Govern­ment are maintaining the increased volume of full-time \York given to the workers in Queensland. I realise the political value it would have for the hon. member for Toowong if he could say that the State Government were sacking thousands of their employees. Under those circumstances, I am not going to believe that their sympathy with the suffcrings of the workers of Queensland would be paramount. I know the satisfaction they ·would have in being able to make out that case against the Labour Party, but I say definitely to-day t11at tlley are not going to have that satisfaction. The State Government are not going to reduce the employment they are giving to the people of Queensland. They will continue with their developmental policy -that policy of roads, \vater supplies, sewer­age, forestry, railway construction improve­ments, harbour improvements, and a multi­tude of other very fine public works. The State Government are carrying on in the services of the people and maintaining a high rate of employment for the workers of the State. I know that whilst hon. members opposite may shed a tear or two on the terrible plight of the working people who will be called upon to pay an increased rate o\ving to the financial position that has come upon the Brisbane City Council, quite an amount of the rate will be due to the action taken by their friends in the Commonwealth Govermnent.

The position has been reversed. Some blame attaches to the Treasury Department of the Brisbane City Council, in placing at a high figme the revenue likely to be reco\·ered from arrears of rates. It was a Yery much inflated estimate of \Yhat might be obtained from that source. The deficiency has to be met. We cannot allow the council to slip back into the position that existed in the bad old days. The law provides that the expenditure for the year must be met by the revenue for the year. I know it will be a very serious burden to the working people to have to pay an increased rate. For instance, if the rate is increased 3c1. in the £1, and the land on which a worker's house stands is valued at £100, it will cost him an extra £1 5s. a year in rates. It will be a serious thing to the worker, but quite a number of them possess land which is valued at only about £30, and in that case the increase would be 7s. 6d.

I know where the real sympathy of hon. members opposite lies. The '' Comier-Mail'' has been weeping about the unfortunate workers, who have to bear the burden of this increased rate. I should say that the bulk of workers' homes are built on allotments valued at about £50 to £60.

Mr. lUassey: And more.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO.l)IE AFFAIRS: Yes, some more, but some are valued at about £30. I suppose you could safely average valuations at about £60.

Mr. J:Uassey: £100.

1800 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

Tile SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO:CUE A"FFAIRS: You would not value them at £100.

JUr. Thiassey: There are many in your electorate valued at more than £100.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO:UE AFFAIRS: There are not too many whose land is valued at over £100. A great many allotments in working-class areas are valued at £30, £40, and £50. Even on a valua­tion of £60 a rate of 4d. in the £1 would mean that a worker would have to pay an extra £1 a year for rates, whereas a large property­owner in Queen street, such as the ''Courier­Mail,'' would have to pay £722. That . is why the hearts of hon. members oppos1te are touched. Thev are not concerned about the extra £1 that the working man would have to pay, it is the £722 that big property­owners in Queen street, such as the ''Courier­Mail,'' would have to pa:r, that moves them to anger. I challenge contradiction of my statement that the workers in Brisbane would mther pay that extm £1 a year in rates to the Brisbane City Council than have hundreds of their fellow-workers unemployed. They will not ·weep about the choice to be made. They will prefer to pay the extra £1 so that the affairs of the council may eventually be adjusted, and their fellow-workers given employment. The real moan by hon. members opposite is not for the suburban resident, but for the big, ·wealthy property-owner.

Thir. Rus,sell: Wha1: about the rise in the priees of commouities that must take place~

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO~IE AFFAIRS: I am sure that the hon. member must be terribly upset about the likelihood of a rise in the prices of com­modities when he anu his colleagues fought the introduction of legislation for price :fixation in this State.

1\'Ir. RusseB: Be fair.

Tl!e SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO ::liE A.F:l<'AIRS: There is no use in hon. members opposite weeping about a rise in prices when they fought tooth anu nail against the introuuction of price-fixing legislation in this State. I can safely say that Queensland's price-fixing legislation was the most effective in the Commonwealth and that has been confirmed by the fact that the Commonwealth Government have recommended its adoption throughout Australia for the period of the present war. The Labour Government think that it is necessary to prevent the people from exploitation not only during a war period, but during any other period as well. Of course, methods will be found of getting round the legislation by men versed in sharp commercial practices.

IIIr. Nimmo: What has that got to do with the Bill?

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOJUE AFFAIRS: The hon. member fo'r Oxley is worrying about the faux pas by his colleague. There is nothing more that I can say, other than to hark back to the hon. member for Toowong, and give an emphatic

denial to his statement here last night, under privilege, that the Government would not help the Brisbane City Council.

JUr. IIIassey: It had permission to borrow the money, but no one would lend it any. You know that.

The SECRETARY ]<'OR HEALTH AND HOIIIE Al':l<'AIRS: I am not sure whether the hon. member knows-if he did, it would not alter the fact-that not only were local authorities compelled to curtail their borrow­ing operations, but the Federal Government even circularised the State Governments tell­ing them that they would have to reduce their loan expenditure during the current year. It was only when the Premiers of Aus­tralia recently met in Canberra and decided that they were going to :fight the deflationist policy of the Commonwealth Government that the Federal Government were persuadeu to change their outlook. The Commonwealth Government having changed their outlook and having decided not to go any further with their deflationist policy, and having agreed to carry on normal works, the State Govemments will now be able to do their usual amount of \York and each and every man who was displaced from the Brisbane City Council owing to shortage of Loan Funds will soon be restored to full-time employment.

Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) (2.45 p.m.): I do not propose to follow the Minister's meanderings round this subject, because most of the matters touched on by him were quite outside tho scope of the Bill. I should, how­ever, like to refer to one or t1vo items he mentioned. It is a pity that he cannot restrain his language when referring to the Opposition, or referring to the staff of the council. We are as much entitled to our opinions as he is. Bear in mind that 1ve are not on the defence on this matter. 1\ nt at all! The Minister has made a very bad fist of it in attempting to back up the Govern­ment in their legislation.

Firstly, let me refer to one subject intro­duced by the Minister, that is, the sob-stuff put over the House in regard to the poor working-man who will not mind paying £1 per annum more for his rent. Tha't is quite beside the point. The point is, if you impose an imposition on the traders amounting to thousands of pounds per annum for rates, which increases rents and overhead charges, then you must expect that those increased costs will be added to the selling price of the articles they sell. Therefore, the consumer will have to pay an extra price according to the increase in the amount of rates.

Mr. 1Valsh: Not necessarily. It can come out of their profits.

lUr. RUSSELL: Is that likely? Is not the trader entitled to make his legitimate profit? The hon. member who interjected woulu like to make profit on all his transac­tions. vVe are not philanthropists altogether. The Minister forgets that the main issue in the imposition of this enormous impost of an additional 4d. or 5d. rate must be represented in increased prices of all commouities.

Brisbane City Council [22 NOVEMBER.] Business and Procedure Bill. 1801

The Minister might have addressed us m a more moderate tone on this Bill. He made t>vo long speeches, and, in both, entirely dodged the question. We have had a long debate on the affairs of the Brisbane City Council, and, in spite of the attempt of the Opposition to have certain reforms instituted, the Government have decided to go on with the Bill as originally drafted. Let me say, in the first place, that our proposal for the appoint­ment of a civic commission was not made with the idea of appointing an autocratic body not responsible to the electors. It >Yas meTely a suggestion for the appointment of a body for a limited period to undertake this work to which the Minister has referred, namely, cleaning up the administration. After that period had expired, it would be for the Government or the people to decide >vhich form of govemment they preferred. I desire to correct the Minister when he attempts to mislead the people into believing that we pro­posed the appointment of a permanent civic commission. The appointment was to be merely temporary, to clean up the chaos in the council, and, having clone that, the com­mission would resign, and we should revert to the democratic form of government, or some other form of government. The civic commission '\ e proposed would be on all fours >vith that which ruled in Sydney for two am1 a-half or three years. At the expira­tion of their tenure they resigned, and a new council was constituted. That was the object of the amendment we moved.

As I said yesterday, this Bill represents the best effort the Government can evolve to rectify the preEent position. \V e are extremely disappointed with it, and the people are cer­tainly indignant at knowing, after all the agitation and all the caustic comments of the Minister, that this is the best the Government can evolve. The Bill, to my way of !thinking, inflicts a great humiliation on the Lord Mayor, in that he is to be relegated to a very minor position, and the same applies to the aldennen. Thes~ men are the elected repre­sentatives of the people, but they nre to be relegated to quite a secondary position. The Lord :l\1ayor is to be robbed of his prerogative as the presiding genius of the institution­ihst, by the fact that a public servant is appointed to control the administration that he himself should control under the present Act; and, secondly, because he is to be relegated to the ranks of the debaters in the council, and his proper position in the chamber as the presiding genius is to be abolished and his place taken by another alclerrnan who will be the dumb clog of the council, who will endeavour to preserve order for three or four hours a week for an extra Bmolument of £100 a year-quite a sinecure. I wonder what the constituents will think of the alderman who has been returned by them to press their claims in the committees for recognition of their wants, when they find that he ,.~m sit in the chair and not be permitted to speak, except to keep unruly members in order. I think the Bill is a Yery poor attempt to tackle a very serious problem.

lUr. Riordan: When Mr. appointed Co-ordinator-General

Kemp was of Public

Works you made a statement that he would be a dictator.

Mr. RUSSELL: But he is under the control of the Government.

lUr. Riordan: You made that statement.

llir. RUSSELL: He is under the control of the Government.

Mr. Riordan: So is this man.

llir. RUSSELL: This man is not under the control of the citizens of Brisbane, because he is not elected by the people. It is the worst type of city management. As I stated last night, I am in favour of the appointment of a city manager under an executiYe com­mittee of the council, holding his authority under their control, for the purpose of co-ordinating the administration and seeing that the policy of the council is canied out. The city manager who is to be appointed by the Govemment is to be responsible to the Government only, and not to the city of Bris­bane. As a matter of fact, the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs will run the council in future; he will be the dictator behind the dictator; the whole administration will be run by the Minister.

Where are we getting to in this matter of local government 9 Our system of local government is now to be abolished and new principles introduced. The control, instead of remaining with the people who have to con­tribute to the upkeep of the local body, is now to be exercised by the Department of Health and Home Affairs through-in the case of Brisbane-a representative of the SecrBtary for Health and Home Affairs and not the council at all. VVhy not appoint the Minister dictator of the Brisbane City Coi:m­cil 's affaiTs, with his nominee in charge and his ornamental chairman getting £100 a year extra for doing little or nothing extTa ~ Why not abolish all the utilities under the control of the council and transfer them to the GovernmenH That would be much simpler than continuing the present system under those two dictators-the dictator and the sub­dictator.

If the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs is to dominate the affairs of the Bris­lb:ane City Council, why not reduce the' goyernment of the council to that of a second­rate borough with a small local council to deal with purely m'inor matters and allow the Government to take chm·ge of th-e huge' utilities such as the w:<ter and sewerage, tramways, power house, and electricity~ With the vast revenues they might get from them at the expense of the people of Bris­bane it would be an alluring proje'ct.

Mr. Moore: Do not paint too alluring a picture of it; they might do it.

lllr. RUSSELL: Why not do it instead of continuing this farce of control by the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs~ I have no objection to the control of these utilities by the people. They should not be maintained as huge money-making concerns, inasmuch as they do not justify their control by local authorities if their first object is to

1802 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

make large reYenues. The main argument for the control of these utilities by the public is that they reniler a cheaper service to the public than that ·which would probably be giYen by private enterprise. vVhen we see the huge profits-if we can take the figures as correct, and of course they are not cor­rect-we perceive the necessity of reducing the prices of these services. Of course, if it did that the council would "go bust "-it has liYed on these reYenues for so many years.

Analysing the Bill, one must come to the mnclusion that it takes from the council all authority, nevertheless for party political reasons the council is being retained. A public servant, entirely beyond the control of the council, ·will n1ake recommendations on all matters affecting administration and expenditure, and his recommendations are to be carried into effect by the council. The council has no voice in the· vetoing or alter­ing of these recommendations. In fact, they arc not recommendations at all; they are simply commands-practically the commands of the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs to the council that it must carry out this or that recommendation. There is no appeal lJy the electC'd representatives of the people. It reduces the whole system to a farce, and if this system is to continue the sooner the· council is abolished the better.

I should like to know if the appointm·ent of this public servant, this sub-dictator, is to be a permanent one, and if this office is to be a permanent institution. The Bill is silent on that point, and the Minister has said nothing about it. Is this public servant to be merely lent to the council for a short period in which he is to unravel the mess in >vhich the council finds itself to·day, or is his office to be incorporated in the council's staff in future~

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: There is no necessity for a man when the reorganisation is done.

lUr. RUSSELL: There is the danger that the Government, once they get a finger in the pie, will retain their control through some nominee of their own. I have no objection to the appointment of any decent public servant to go through the administration and make recommendations, but I do not want his appointment continued beyond the period neeessary to enable him to make that investigation.

JUr. Dnnstan: You would give permanent control to a non-elected person~

lUr. RUSSELL: Certainly not.

lUr. Power: You made the statement here yesterday.

JUr. RUSSELL: The hon. member was not here when I made my speech.

lUr. Ri01·dan: You made so many we have tired of listening to them.

~Ir. RUSSELL: I hope my words of wis­dom >vill sink in. For the information of the hon. member, I will repeat my idea of a city manager. First, the council elects an

executiYe from amongst its members. The city manager is to be appointed by the executive, not by the Government or by the people. I leave it to the council to select the best man it can get to control all departments. That is the essential feature of the scheme. The executive means the council, because the executive must submit its reports to the council and the council can veto any­thing that the executive does, just as Par­liament can veto the actions of Cabinet.

The Bill is m·ore one for discussion in Committee than in the House. There are only two or three cardinal features in it, and I have referred to them, but I do think that the first duty of this co-ordinator sh-ould be put to the iinancial administration on a proper footing. As reasonable men, we must be convinced that the financial basis of the council is at present absolutely unsound. We have had the reports of the Auditor-General and the State Electricity Commission as to the wrong practices adopted by the council in not writing off from its enterprises the proper amounts for depreciation and renewals.

Until the end of 1936 everything was all right. The balance-sheets were correct because, while General Fund was credited with the revenue derived from those utilities, General Fund had to stand the debits for overhead expenses, including depreciation and costs of renewals. The Government are to blame for passing a Bill in 1936 that per­mitted the council to alter its system, whereby all renewals and depreciation are not now debited to the revenues that are received from those utilities. I raised the question at the time, and the answer I got from the Minister was: ''The Auditor-General will see to that.'' The Auditor-General has con­demned the system, and so has the State Electricity Commission. This proves that for some years now the so-called surpluses of the Brisbane City Council have been non­existent. The fact is that the council have shown recuning deficits. I do not intend to go into the figures 'because· most hon. members are familiar >vith them.

It is peculiar that when the budget for 1936-37 was presented it provided for debits for depreciation and renewals, as was cus­tomary in all preceding budgets since the inception of the Greater Brisbane City Coun­crr,-but when the balance-sheet was presented at the end of that financial year-after the Dill to which I have referred was passed­those items >vere omitted, and purposely so with th8' conniYance of the Government. I accuse the GovC'rnment, therefore, of putting the council on the wrong track in its financial administration. The main blame for the -rotten position of the council's finances to-day must lie at the door of the· Govern­ment. I do hope that the public servant the Bill enables the Minister to appoint will see to it that the financial administration is put on the right footing, because afte1· all that is where the main fault with the council lies to-day. Not se much blam·e can be laid at the door of the departmental heads, because I think that in the main those men are doing their duty by the ratepayers and the council

Brisbane City Council. [22 NovEMBER.] Business and Procedure Bill. 1803

so far as they are able. Once the financial system is placed on a sound footing I think the ratepayers will be satisfied as to how ~heir . money is being handled. With the Jugglmg that goes on to-day nobody knows where the money goes.

In the main, we must be convinced that the financial position of the council is abso­lutely desperate, that if the accounts were presented in their proper shape, then instead of small surpluses each year enormous deficits t~at would stagger the community would be di~clos~d. We have attempted to improve this B1ll and we have to be satisfied now to do the best we can with what we have. As I said before, the provisions in it are more the subject for discussion in Comn1ittee than in the House, and we hope to have various points elucidated then. I do not propose to say any more at this stage.

Mr. RIORDAN: (Bowen) (3.5 p.m.): After listening to the Fascist group on the other side headed by the anti-Labour Govern­ment axis of Mahero, Russo, and Nimmo, I have come to the conclusion that it is time this Parliament did something to deal with the propaganda that is being spread amongst the people. In the first place, this measure would not have been adopted had it not been for emergency circumstances clue to the war. (Opposition interjections.) The hon. mem­ber for Toowong has made five or six speeches in this House, and if he will not allow me to make mine but continues to interject I shall answer him in the >Yay he answers other people. \Ve have hearcl of his prowess in other c·hambers. A great deal of political propaganda is being made out of the speeches of the Opposition. Those speeches are made for one purpose and one purpose only-not to help the State of Queensland or build up a dece~ t measur~ of security for the people by p_lacmg them m work. Hon. members oppo­site cry about the working man. 'l'hey are not con_cerned about him, but about the big vested mterests they have in the vital part of this city.

Let us ha>·e a look at those gentlemen who have spoken so far on this measure. There was first ~f all the hon. member for Toowong, a man w1th large business interests, a big property-holder--

lUr. l:tlassey: Wrong again.

Mr. RIORDAN: Then there was the hon. member for \Vynnum, another large property owner.

l:tlr. Dart: You do not know that.

Mr. RIORDAN: I do not know it! I do not go round in circles with my eyes shut and not know whether I am speaking to the first amendment or the second one. I follow discussions through. Then the third one is the hon. member for Hamilton another large lanclholcler in the city. We th~n come to the hon. member for Oxley, another financial magnate with large vested interests in the city. They are shedding crocodile tears and expecting people to believe what they say.

They are not concemecl about the poor workers of Ithaca and other working-class districts.

Mr. Deacon interjected.

lUr. RIORDAN: Be quiet! You do not understand what I am talking about; you are too young. (Government laughter.) Those hon. members should have come here with some sincerity of purpose, because they are the elected representatives of the people and not merely as Masso, Nimmo, Russo, and Mahero. They are here in the interests of the people who sent them here to do a job. We find that the squeal coming from them is clue to the fact that they have found out that it is necessary, owing to the :financial blockade imposed on the council by the financial institutions of this country, that there may be an increase in rates to the extent of 4d. in the £1 or possibly more. That increase in rates is going to hit these big vested interests and, after all, is not going to mean so much to the worker. £1 or £1 5s. is a lot of money in a year, but the average working man with the community spirit is prepared to pay that £1 5s. or £1 lOs. if one or two of his mates are given employment a.ncl so are able to supply the necessaries of life to their wives and two or three children.

It is as a result of r:ontinual propaganda by hon. members opposite and opposition aldermen in the council that the Brisbane City Council has found it impossible to raise the necessary loan money it has been given p~rmission to borrow by the Loan Council. The GoYernment have found it necessary to take certain action to permit of the council's recasting its budget. That recasting of the budget would not have been necessary had the council been able to get this money. There would have been no need to increase the rates by 4d. in the £1 if the council had been able to get the money it required.

. It might not have been necessary to mcrease the rates for the next 10 or 15 years. Although the rates have been reduced and valuations have been brought down in the city, and arrears of rates amounting to £150,000 have been written off bv the Jones administration of the Brisbane City Council hon. members opposite still contend that th~ council has squandered money and that it should be dissolved.

. I am inclined to agree with them that there 1s need for a reorganisation of the staff of the Brisbane City Council, but because an officer is to be seconded from the Department of Health and Home Affairs, hon. members opposite describe him as a Yirtual dictator. It will be his duty to reorganise the council in the interests of the people of the city and ultimately, in the best interests of th~ people of the State as a whole. If there was a continual drift and continual chaos in the city, it would react against the best interests of the people whom members of the Country Party claim to represent. I mentiol"l that for the benefit of Country Party Jlt.~mbers opposite.

Mr. Brand: That is what we are trying to prevent.

1804 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

J!Ir. RIORDAN: Hon. members opposite are not trying to prevent that. They are only trying to save their political faces. If they wanted to do the honest thing they would get up in this Chamber and applaud the Government for their action instead of talk­ing about Fascism and dictatorship, and the appointment of a civic commission to control the city. If they take away from the people the right to elect their representatives, as is proposed by them in the constitution of a ci,·ic commission, they deal the :first heavy blow at the democratic system of local govern­ment. Hon. members opposite know that.

lUr. lUaher: Do you not think that the council should be dissolved~

I\Ir. RIORDAN: The present council has only :five months to run.

Mr. Maher: Too long.

I\Ir. RIORDAN: Of course, it is too long for those people who are opposed to it. Three years ago the people of Brisbane were given an opportunity to elect their represen­tatives to the Brisbane City Council, and the Labour Party increased its majority. ·what is wrong with that~ Since then, we ha Ye had two further tests in the election :field, one since the outbr0ak of war, and that in the Kurilpa ward, where a magnificent majority was obtained by the Labour candi­date.

When it was suggested that Mr. Kemp should be appointed Co-ordinator-General of Public Works, the hon. member for Hamilton and other hon. members exclaimed: ''Another dictatorship, a bureaucratic dictatorship.'' Recently, hon. members opposite have referred in glowing terms to the wonderful work that has already been done by this ''dictator'' under the guidance of Parliament.

Mr. RusseU: He would make a very good city manager.

lUr. RIORDAN: Of course he would, but what is there to show that the liaison officer or the reorganising officer who is to be appointed will not also be a good officer~ He will he better tlwn JI.Ir. Annand, who had no qualifications for the position of town clerk of the Brisbane City Council.

JUr. Russell: Who is he?

lUr. RIORllAN: I am not going to tell the hon. member. It is very amusing to l1e!H hon. members opposite pretending to c-pouse the cause of the workers in suburban areas who will have to pay another £1 or \;5~. a vear in rates to the council. As I said llefore, the workers will not object to the payment of this amount when they know that it will help to keep some of their mates in jobs so that they may be able to maintain their wives and families. The real basis of the Opposition's argument is the scurrilous attacks that have been made by the Press on the council.

lUr. JUassey: I thought you were goil~g to say by the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs.

)Ir. RIORDAN: We will leave that for the hon. member to say. Hon. members on this side are not a mutual-admiration society.

Tile Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: Hear, hear!

I\Ir. RIORDAN: If the Minister has an opinion then he is entitled to it, just as I am entitled to mine. I will express my opinion in this House, and I can express it to him aftenmrds, and there will be no hard feel­ing about it.

Tile Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: Hear, hear!

Mr. RIORDAN: At the same time, we on this side of the House are not driven into one trend of thought by vested interests. IV c are here in the best interests of Queensland, and, in this particular instance, of Brisbane. 'rhere has been an agitation recently by the Press, particularly the ''Courier-Mail'' and '' 'l'ruth,'' which at every opportunity have been crying out for the appointment of a civic commission, and for the right of the people to kick out the present council. Let hon. members cast their minds back to certain measures criticised bv the ''Truth.'' After certain legislation h~s on various occasions been introduced in this House, ' 1 Truth'' has a pp cared with headlines such as: '' The I~abour Party-Social Fascists,'' ''Inter­ference with the V cry Basis of Democracy'' and 11 Caucus Rule.'' I say quite honestly and sincerely, that ''Truth'' \Yould ha Ye lJecn the :first to appear with scare headlines had the GoYernment had the audacity and temerity to appoint a civic commission. The ''Truth'' has attacked both the Government and the council he ea use the present trend has not suited its book. Notwithstanding that it has clamoured for the appointment of a civic commission, it has always attacked the very basis of democracy. On the other hand, we ha Ye the ''Courier-Mail,'' which on many occasions has attempted to define what the Govemment propose to do. It has published all sorts of fantastic schemes and state­ments. At one time it said a new council should be elected, then the Lord Mayor was to have his head cut off, and then the Queensland Central Executive was going to decapitate h\"O or three others. Then \Yhen the '' Com·ier-Mail '' found out the real story, it set up an attack on the Labour Party, got under cover, and, in effect, said, '

1 \Ve had better get stuck into the Payne report.'' This is the same ''Courier-Mail'' that has appeared with headlines such as "Dead-end .Jobs," "The Right of Juyenile Employment,'' ''The Expansion of ,Juvenile Employment for Young Queenslanders, '' and '' Quoensl:mders First and Foremost,'' yet I know for a positive fact that when it found it necessar:r to appoint two cadet journalists to its staff, it brought them from Melboume, just as if Queensland did not appear on the map. That is the kind of Press that exists in this country!

Those are the people who put up arguments in the interests of vested interests. They were and always will be on the side of those who wish to crush and oppress. Just about

BTisbane City Council [22 NovEMBER.] Business and PmceduTe Bill. 1805

3,000 men lost their employment because the Brisbane City Council did not obtain its loan of £1,000,000. That has caused a burden to be thro\vn on the business people, the lamlholders, and workers. In consequence, the Opposition, consisting of both Country and Nationalist Parties, in unison \Yith the Press, have been calling us dictators, and attempt­ing to justify the deplorable actions of which they were guilty in the past.

JUr. lUASSEY (Toowong) (3.20 p.m.): I am sorry that the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs was so disturbed when trying to refute the figures I gaYe last night, but the facts are that although he repeated quite a number of them, the figures he quoted did not get away from the fact that the Govern­ment gave the council approximately £900,000 a year since the J ones administration took control of its affairs.

I think we have covered most of the ground covered by the Bill. If this Lord High Chancellor, Co-ordinator, or whatever he may be termed, is to take control of the administra­tion of the council he will have a very large job, indeed. T'hc extent of his task is indi­cated by the rise in some of the items of expenditme. :B'or instance, in 1934, when Alderman Greene was Lord Mayor, general administrative salaries amounte<l to £85,416, and in 1938-39, under the J ones administra­tion, they amounted to £119,237. The Elec­tricity Departments costs rose from £15,422 in 1933-34 to £20,690 in 1938-39; tramway administrative costs rose from £13,695 in 1933-34 to £16,969 in 1938-39, and power­honse administrative costs rose from £862 to £1,750 dming the same period. It seems a peculiar thing that although the Water Supply and Sewerage Department cost was shown in a statement of accounts in 1933-34, when that cost increased tremendously, the Auditor­General apparently agreed it was not to be set out thereafter, and vou cannot trace the amount in the statement of accounts. The statement of accounts of the Brisbane City Council by the Auditor-General has only been received by hon. men~hers to-day, after we have discussed the Bill.

In 1934 motor-ear allo"·ances amounted to £7,572, and in 1938-39 to £9,759, or an increase of oYer £2,000. The loss on public conveniences in 1933-34 was £391, and last year the loss was £], 701. The salary an cl allowance paid to Lord Mayor Grcene in J 933-34 amounted to £1,921, and the amount Jlaicl to Lord Mayor J ones in 1938-39 was £2,140. For staff expenses the amount paid to Lord ·Mayor Greene was £257, anc1 the amount paid to Lord J'\·fayor J ones was £1,136. Chauffeur ancl eA1Jenses in 1933-34 amountecl to £638, and in J 938-39 the amount was £844. The present Lord Mayor spends half of his time going clown South looking for loan money.

We heard a good deal from the Secretary fo1· Health and Home Affairs about how visitors are entertained. That is verified ·when one looks at the statement of account dealing with expenditure on public functions and receptions. In J 933-34 an amount of £272 was paid for this pmposc, and in 1938-39

the cost amounted to £880. \Vhen he was elected the Lord ::\-Iayor stated that he would aY ail himself of all the privileges of his office; the figures I haw just quoted indicate that he has done so.

In 1933-34 the cost for cleaning the Citv Hall amounted to £134 a week, but that amount has now reaehed £160 a week. Of the revenue of the ferries, 87.3 per cent. goes in administration costs and maintenance of ferry services. The figures I have quoted indi­cate that there is certainly great scope for the Lord High Chancellor, or Co-ordinator­General, or \vhateYer he is to be tcnnecl, when he goes to the City Hall. I think he will be taking on a stupencluous task. There is no doubt that he will have great opportunities to demonstrate his organising abilities.

It has been stated on every occasion when the council has been faced with difficulties that they were caused because of the lack of loan money. The greatest cause of the diffi­culty in the council to-day is that it has had too much loan money. Each and every time £1,000,000 is borrowed, it means approxi­mately an extra 2cl. in the £1 on the rates. In the past fe\Y years, instead of increasing the rate to cover interest and redemption, the council has borrowed to carry out the essential services of the city. 'rhe Act of ]936 laid it -clown definitely that the eouncil must bonow only for actual requirements. Each time £1,000,000 has been obtained, as I say, it has meant an extra 2d. in the £1 on the rates approximately, because, as everybody knows, in most instances the work <lone with this money has not been reproductive. No revenue is to be gained from doing up streets.

The Premier has really helped to sink the City Council by reducing the loan sinking fund from 2 per cent. to 1 per cent. The 1 per cent. does not really cover the short­dated loans of fh-e to 10 years. They haH to be refioatecl every five or 10 years, am the result is that really no provision is made for sinking fund.

The officer to be appointed will have a very big job, and, as far as I can see, the council cannot get out of the mess merely by paying attention to administration.

Mr. NUilUO (Oxley) {3.26 p.m.): This debate has brought out many interesting facts. The Leader of the United Australia Party has shoy;n that, by the passage of this Bill, the Government intended to establish a dic­tatorship over the council, that Fascist methods \Yere being adopted to run the affairs of the city. As proof of that, we have had the example this afternoon of the big man from the North :butting in to give hon. mem·­bC'l's representing city electorates a helping hand. The hon. member for Bowen gave his views of the action to be taken to save the Brisbane City Council. No doubt, he has th.; main qualifications neccssm·y for that, as he represents an electOTate in which there is a g1·eat number of Italians. I suppose these Italians haYe been speaking to the hon. mem­ber and explaining to him just how they put over Fascism in Italy, and he has this after­noon appeared in the role of Herr Riorclan

1806 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

to tell us exactly how to run the city of Brisbane.

There is no question about it, it is to be a case of Fascism, pure and simple. A public servant is to be appointed and is to be given very autocratic powers. If the intention >ras that the ratepayers of Brisbane were to elect aldermen and the aldermen ·were to appoint a business manager, we should feel that that was democratic government, but that is not the intention. The proposal is to choose a public servant to run an organisation of the magni­tude of the Brisbane City Council. To me that is absurd. The railways of Queensland are run at a huge loss each year and thus we know that Government management, manage­ment by a public servant, must always fail inasmuch as the Government exercise a dictatorship over the public servant and the heads of departments and instmct them as to what is to be done in aceordance with Govemment policy.

This afternoon the }finister stated that the real trouble occurred when the loans were cut off by the Tory Government in the South. There is one thing about the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs and that is that he is a past master of abuse and of soapbox tactics that go down with the public. The Tory Governments are not re~ponsible for cutting the allocation of the Brisbane City Council. The Loan Council gave the council authority to borrow £1,000,000 again this year. It was wrong to give that authority. The finances are in such a hopeless muddle that one of the first organisations from which it endeavoured to borrow informed it that there were no funds available for it, and also added the rider that this has nothing to do with the war, indic·ating that, whereas it had money to lend-and has since lent it­to other authorities, it would not lend to the council. The result is that the Lord Mayor has had all these trips al1Cl the money is still not available.

To prove that ·what I am saying is correct, I should like to quote the Sydney County Council, that body that was criticised so much for having dismissed its employees. That body, before the Loan Council met at all, 1vas able to borrow the 11·hole of its allocation on the l•pen market. In fact, the loan was over­subscribed. Despite IYhat the Minister says, the Brisbane City Council's position was not brought about by the Corr.monwealth Goverl1-ment 's preventing it from getting money. What brought about the climax was the State Government's 11·ithdrawal of help for that body.

The figures that have been quoted, not oEly by the hon. member for Too11·ong, but also by the Minister, show what the position IYas. In 1936-37 the amount allocated to the council out of the Unemployment R.elief Fund and by way of loan subsidy totalled £918,000. The total amount from those sources in 193 7-38 was £960,000, and in 1938-39, the year when the council 1vas getting into difficulties, the amount granted to that body from these sources was only £318,000, a reduction of £600,000 in one year. According to the Minis­ter's own figures, the only amount that the

council has received so far this year from these sources is £42,000.

Whilst I agree that the amounts allocated in past years were too high, and this body has been spoon-fed in that so much money has been handed to it, nevertheless, to with­draw it all at once is too drastic. The council should have been given some opportunity of D djusting itself to altered circumstances by having these amounts reduced gradually. It is only natural that a dmstic reduction of from £960,000 to £42,000 in one year would cause complete dislocation of the council's finance.

I think that the ::\Iinister recognises that the council is bankrupt, because he is adopt" ing precisely the policy that would be adopted by the creditors of an ordinary insolvent com­pany. They IYould appoint a receiver to take charge of the company's affairs. The 2\Lnis­ter, in appointing this public servant, is virtually appointing a receiver to take charge of the council oa behalf of the Govermllc•nt.

In 1936-37 the Brisbane City Council declared a smplus of £119,000. Had it made provision for the usual depreciation vf the lwge undertakings that it is running, as jt had been doing previously, and in the Sl:me proportion as previously, a deficit of £66,000 \Ymrlcl have been disclosed. In 1937-:lS, whe11 a surplus of £4 7,000 was shown, the fact .is that, if proper depreciation had been allowerl, there would have been a deficit of £145,0UO. Sm1ilarly, if depreciation had been allowed in 1938-39, the surplus of £5,000 IYOllld h<Fr~ become a deficit of £180,000.

Th~ A~ditor-General warned that body that certam disaster confronted it if depreciation was not written off. He stated that, if this was not done, certain of the assets shown in the balance-sheet 11·ould, in fact, become non­existent. :Mr. Cochran, the chairman or the State Electricity Commission, pointed out the danger that threatened the council if depreciation IYas not 11·ritten off. Now that the crash has come, 11·e find the Goven1ment, for purely party political reasons, instead of getting rid of these men who caused this disaster to the city, are allowing them to carry on for a further periorl in the fervent hope that the me•s will be hidden and that further loan moneys will become available.

I do not think a stronger indictment against the Brisbane City Council and the aldermen of that council could have been made here than that made by the hon. mem­ber for Bowen. The hon. member for Bowen condemned the aldermen ancl said that there should be a reorganisation of the staff, and that large numbers of the staff IYere not pullint; their 'YCight. Those \Yere his words. Supposing that state of affnirs occurred in an ordinary business-a business with a small amount of capital-the directors would have been sent about their business for not know­ing how to handle the staff. If you cannot employ the right man to do the job, it shows that you are deficient in capacity to manage. That is exactly what has happened in regard to the Brisbane City Council. I am not pre­pared to say that the staff of the council is

Brisbane City Council [22 N OVEMBER.l Business and Procedure Bill. 1807

inefficient-far from it-although the hon. member for Bowen Yirtually insinuated that it was. If the staff is inefficient, then how much more inefficient must those La,bour aldermen be in charge of the affairs of this citv: He said also that 3,000 men had lost their jobs because no loan· money 'Was avail­able. \Ve have had some wondel'ful illustTa­tions of the danger of borrowing money. 'rhe hon. member for Toowong has told us that eYery £1,000,000 borrowed means 2d. in the £1 on the rates to the Brisbane City Council.

lUr. Power: It does not follow that because the hon. member for Toowong says a thing it is right.

lUr. NDIJUO: The hon. member for Baroona was a member of the council that was responsible for this state of affairs. The Auditor-General's report for 1937-38 shows the serious proportions that loan charges have assumed. Loan charges and interest to be paid in servicing loans are a big dmg on the City Council. For the year 1937-38 the geneml rates received amounted to £398,413 and the amount received from sewerage rates £169,834, making in all a total of £568,247. Now, the loan charges against those rates amounted to £913,808, a deficiency of £345,561. That deficiency has to be met from surpluses in the electricity, power house, tramways, and water supply funds.

It is obvious that rates have been kept down by the misuse of loan moneys for the purpose of replacements in undertakings. On this point the Auditor-General com­ments-

' 'Unless capital losses are fully provided for, I can only repeat the views expressed when dealing with the accounts for 1936-37, that non-existing values will be accumu­lated as assets, and it is questionable whether too great a conb·ibution is not being exacted from the undertakings to obviate the necessity for increasing the revenues in the rating sections. ''

\Vhy should people who ride on the trams have to pay higher fares than they should in order to make up for the low rates~ And the same thing applies to electricity, just because aldermen have been trying to keep rates down in order to get votes. It brings us back to the basic princinle the Government have applied in the management of the Bris­bane City Council and other municipal coun­cils throughout Queensland-that every per­son, whether he pays rates or not, should have as much control in the management of the city as the person who has im-ested funds in the city or is building a home or paying off a house. Aldermen a.ro mJXious to be returned to councils, and councillors are only too anxious to spend loan money in an effort to curry favom with the people and get their votes. I think if we alter the franchise for the election of aldermen vve shall get true efficiency in management. That is the posi­tion in a nutshell. \Ye are not going to have proper management in our city affairs until the franchise is altered.

Who is to blame for the dreadful smash that has occurred~ The Labour council has become a political labour bureau, and both Labour members of Parliament and Labour aldermen have been responsible. Jobs, including sinecures, haYe been found for those vvho haYe helped the Labour members of the council to retain their seats. Even within the last seven or eight months we have seen Labour aldermen doing things to protect their own personal friends. The Lord Mayor and other members of his party who vvere given the honour of looking after the interests of the ratepayers, realised that .the smash w~s coming and they created .1obs for then friends, giving them a tenure uf office of seven years. Did any hon. member ever hear anything more criminal in the manage­ment of any organisation than giving cer­tain persons, virtually without qualifications, security of tenure for seven years 9 There vvas Mr. J. A. Speedy, manager of the W arks Department of the Brisbane City Council, who was appointed on a salary of £850 to £1,000 per annum. He cannot be Temoved fTom his office for seven years. He was appointed busine~s manager of .the city. He had no qualifications as an engmeer, and his only qualification for the job was t!mt he was a faithful secretary of an Austr<than Labour party branch. Do hon. members think that that pTactice is going to be for the benefit of the people of the cityo Mr. G. H. Nelson', Water Supply and Sewerage Department, was appointed for seven years, at a salary of £1 000 per annum. If he had the qualifica­tidns for the position, why was it necessary to protect him for a per~od of seven .years, especially when the counc1l knew that .1t '-yas bankrupt and should haye been cons1dermg economies 9 He was appomted for seven years at a higher salary than he w~s gett~ng. Then theTe was Mr. Parker, the mdustnal officer, who was appointed for seyen years at £550 per annum. Mr. K. J. Heenan, t~e water supply engineer, who was also appomted for seven years at £650 per annum. Mr. R. Dunn, a newspaper mn;n, a man who had J_Iever done any local authonty work, was :;ppomteq as publicity officer. He was aj)pomted for the sole purpose of trying to camo.uftage t_he errors of the council, and to wnte U,P 1ts record in glowing coloms so as to 1~1sle~d the people into believing that everythmg 1_n the garden was lovelY:. He was .to make 1t appear that the counCil was carry1:?g on suc­cessfully so that when the elections came round he vvould be able to prepare all the speeches and the electioneering propag.anda for Labour candidates. He also was appomted for 3 period of seven years at a salaq of £650 to £800 a year.

I ask you, Mr. Speaker, is that honest and is that dealing with the funds of the people in i he right way? Yet we have a Minister who ;s prepared to allow these aldermen to carry on for a further period of six or seven months and get the city into a greater mess. I contend that the Labour aldermen should be hounded out of office immediately. They should have been forced out of office a month ago, and their real masteTs, the taxpayers, given an opportunity to appoint a councll

1808 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

that would carry on the job properly. There is no doubt that there could not have been a more inept crowd than they managing the affairs of the city. There 'vere some good aldermen on the Brisbane City Council, but they 'vere not called into the inner circle. The Opposition aldermen were excluded from the inner circles of the council, and that is why I say there should be no politics in the City Council affairs. All the alclermen should be allowed to give the council the benefit of their ability, irrespective of party. There are men of all shades of political opinion who are good business managers, but no matter how efficient they may be, they cannot serve any good purpose by being thrown into a 11olitical clique determined by a tick on a piece of paper.

One thing emerges from the debates on this Bill, and that is the manner in 'vhich the Minister is handling it. His attitude amounts to: ''We will just pass this Bill to allow the aldermen to complete their term ancl then there will be a fresh election.'' Personally, I do not believe that Labour intends to fight the next municipal election very seriously. It is hoping that the Opposition Party will get control of the administration.

li'Ir. Yeates: To clean up the dirty mess.

lUr. Nll\IMO: That is the point. Labour is hoping that history will repeat itself. \Vhen the McCormack Government made a hopeless mess of the affairs of Queensland, it 'Yas left to the ::\Ioore Governme11t to right matters. The position created by the l\IcCo'r­mack Government was revealed by the Secre­tary for Mines, who, when Secretary for La.bour anc1 Industry, admitted in this House that 89,000 'vorkers were unemployed or par­tially unemployed. 'rhings were in such a dreadful condition that a change of Gover,_n­ment took place. In 1929 the :;\loore Goveni­ment came into office, but they had a terrible job cleaning np the mess left by their prede­cessors.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. member to discuss the Bill.

l\Ir. NillflliO : I am connecting my remarks in this way: history is repeating itself. The Brisbane City Council and the Government, apparently, are not keen on winning the next municipal elections, but hope that the Opposition Party will be returned. If that occurs they ·IYill have the same job in local government that the Moore Government had in politics of eleaning up the financial mess. The Opposition aldermen \Yill have a terrible job to clean up the mess that will be left behind by the present cotmcil, including the hon. member for Earoona, when he was on the council.

Mr. Power: He would clean you up.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: YDu didn't like the job, did you?

lir. NilUlUO: No, but the job was well anc1 truly clone. Every economy practised by the Moore Government was continued by the Labour Government for 24 months after their return to the Treasmy benches. That is proof that they were very glad of the work done

by the Moore Government, notwithstanding that they give them no credit .for it.

The hon. member for Bo,ven said the cri tic ism from this side of the House was offered only on behalf of big business and the big property-holders. In other 'vords, he said we were looking after those interests. That was the gravamen of his charge. I should like to tell the hon. member that big business and big lanc1holders in the city pass the burden of increased rates, such as those that will be imposed under legislation passed by his Government, on to their tenants and clients. That is to say, in the final analysis, all this increased taxation must fall on the working man.

I do not intend to pursue this matter any fmther. It is seemingly hopeless to get the Government to do the right thing. The hon. member for Bowen has told the House just hQw the Government 'vill impose a dictator­ship. That was quite an easy matter for him to visualise, as some people in his elettorate have lived under a dictatorship. Therefore, it is very appropriate that the metropolitan members of his party should select him to :fight their battle·s on the :floor of this House.

JUr. JESSO~ (Kennedy) (3.50 p.m.): I have listened very intently to this debate. I have been particularly struck with the Fascist ideas of the Opposition. Last night I had the privilege of hearing the hon. member for \Vynnum disclaim association with the Com­munist Party.

The statements made by hon. members opposite during the course of this debate show conclusively that they desire to place a dictator in charge of the Brisbane City Coun­cil. As my friend the hon. member for Bowen said, it '"oulc1 be the first step in undermining our system of democracy. In support of the statement that these people who are attempting to have a civic commis­sion appointed are Fascist in outlook I refer hon. members to page 145 of '' Hansard'' for 1938, where they will find the wording of the pamphlet that was issued in support of all Country Party crmdidates during the 1938 elections nsking for the Communist vote. If hon. members read the debate as reported in that '' Hancard'' they will see how the Yari­ons m em hers of the Opposition 'vere annoyed at my statement.

Last night, the hon. member for Logan told us whv Labour was forced to introduce its policy ii1to local goYenunent. It is amus­ing to hear hon. members opposite deploring the fact that party politics have entered into local authority affairs. I propose to show how essential it 'HlS for Labour to introc1uce its policy into those affflirs. I propose to show that in eertnin areas financial institu­tions are Teprescutccl on councils. I propose to show how this affected the policy of local authoTities-controlled by men of the same political faith as the Opposition-outside the Brisbane aTea.

FaT many years men of the same political faith as the Opposition controlled the Hinchinbrook Shire Council. Through faulty

Brisbane City Council [22 NovEMBER.] Business ancl Procedure Bill. 1809

administration the council got into debt to the Commercial Banking Company of Sydney to the extent of £10,000 above their overdraft. They did not expend the money in carrying out essential road works, but much of it was wasted through an inefficient system. In 1927 they found themselves in financial diffi­culties. Prior to that the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, Limited, had been endeav­ouring through the council to get the Govnumeut to sell it the tram lines over which cane was l1auled in the district. The Government refused to do so. This company <lesired to get control of the district so as to prevent another sugar mill from being erected there. Adopting tactics like those of the opposition aldermen in the Brisbane City Council, this Tory concern began a campaign of propaganda. Then the great catastrophe of a flood overtook the district in 1927. 'rhe people were in a panic and opportunity was taken to continue propaganda for the sale of the tramline. Eventually, it was sold for £75,000, a sum not at all commensmate with its value; in fact, it was merely the amount owing by the people on the system. The tramline was sold, the debt to the bank liquidated, and for the first time in many years the council had a credit balance. It messed about until in 1935 it had got back to a position similar to that in 'vhich it found itself prior to the sale. The people of lug­ham then eleetcd a Labour alderman to the council. He IYas able to give the show away and make the other aldermen stand up to their obligations. Of course, at first, this lone Labour alderman, like the hon. member for Logan, when a member of the Coorparoo Shire Council, could not do very much but did his best under the circumstances. At the elections of 1935, all the elected aldermen, with the exception of three, belonged to the lJabour P<trty. Since then the council has reduced the rates, installed a water scheme, channelled and ke1·bcd streets, and con­structed good roads throughout the district. I am giving these particulars to show that the Lahour party has been forced to go into municipal affairs because of the corruptness of their financial management because people feather their 11ests.

A similar thing has occurred in Brisbane. ·when the Greater Brisbane area was com­posed of small county councils, or '"hatm·er they called thcmsch·es, there was no strict superYisio11· It is a great pity that the Go,·ernment of the day did not appoint a Yaluator to make the valuations for the city. From my own personal eAJ>erience, the differ­ence in rates in different parts of the city arna is nothing less than a scandal. In vari­ous streets property-owners on one side a.re paying twice a.s much in rates as those on the other. This is a legacy left to the coun­cil by the small councils.

Mr. RusseU: It had nothing to do with the old councils. They had their own valuers.

Thir. JESSON: The Brisbane City Council took over the shires of Hamilton, Coorparoo, Windsor, and others. The swindle was worked before the Greater Brisbane scheme

came into operation, and no-one has since been game to tackle the matter. I venture to say that at least 25 per cent. of the proper­ties in the area are not valued conectly. That was one of the dirty jobs that the Hinchinbrook Shire Council had to do. It sacked the previous valuator. The new valuator did the job properly and although there were 100 appeals against the valuations not one actually went to court. The O'Yners paid up and looked pleasant. F'or instance, a person had leased land from the council a.nd built shops on it for which he received £5 or £6 a week in rent but on which he had p'aid no rates for 15 years. A Labour _council came into power and spragged the wheels of that business. It was practices such as that that were altered, and, consequently, such people are always opposed to the entry of party politics into council elections. Of course, it is only the Labour party that they would put the knife into. That party endeavours to do the g-reatest good for the gTeatcst number.

The spleen that has been displayed by hon. members opposite to-day, as well as by their Tory friends in the Brisbane City Council, is paltry. It will be to their eyerlasting shame if they do not support the Government in what they are doing. I venture the opinion that if a Tory Government had been in power at this time and a Tory civic administration had got into similar difficulties, hon. members opposite would be doing their utmost to smother the matter. They would not have been game enough to come into the open and state the position fairly and squarely.

The present civic administration has done remarkable work in the last four or five years. The other day I showed a visitor to this citv the various industries that had been establis"hed here in recent years. I conducted him on a tour of inspection of the city and. he was astounded at the progress Brisbane had made in the last 10 years. Hon. members opposite- know in their own hearts that, despite their opposition and criticism, the city has continued to progress under Labour administration.

Another point is that although we hear all these squeals from the Opposition, those who are representing the vested interests and capitalists of the State, the worker, the man who has been put out of a job in the past few weeks, is not squealing. He is bearing his troubles with fortitude. He is patiently awaiting the time when further moneys will be aYailable to the council and he will be able to get his job back. Such men are hoping that the Government will not be so foolish as to dissolve the council and go to election at this time, when, through a sudden wave of public opinion, the workers might be thrown to the ·wolves as they were in 1929-1932. Those who have most to lose, the bread­winners of the city, are bearing this difficulty with fortitude. They admit that something is wrong, but they hope that things will brighten up, that they will be re-employed before Christmas, and so have a brighter Christmas than seems to be ahead of them at present. If the Opposition were honest, then

1810" Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

instead o:f' talking with their tongues in their cheeks and shedding CTOCodile tears they would do their utmost to help the Govern­ment to place this legislation on the statute­book for the benefit of the council and the city. InRtead of treating this Bill as a joke, and taking advantage of the position for political purposes, in the hope that it might bring about Labour's defeat at the next civic election, and perhaps cause the defeat of the Labour Government, they should support the Bill to the utmost. I am convinced that the Labour Party will again be given a mandate by the people at the next civic election.

I sayv the article in the "Courier-Mail" the other day to which the people most con­cerned, the workers, strongly object. They admit there is something wrong, and we all know that there is.

~Ir. Yeates: What is wrong with it?

~Ir. JESSON: The only thing wrong with the City Council is that Tory aldermen are sitting on it. Why, we do not want to go any further than this House. If people were to pick up '' Hansard'' and read it through they would find that hon. members opposite, ever since Labour has been in power, have been crying that the State is going to the dogs and going bankrupt. Why, nothing could be further from the truth. The po,pula­tio:ta is going ahead every year, our production in primary products is increasing year by years, wages are getting better, there is less unemployment in this State than in other States, and our workers enjoy the shortest working week in Au.stralia, notwithstanding competition from other States. In the face of all those things, Mr. Speaker, they have the audacity to say that the country is virtu­ally broke.

~Ir. Yeates: Who said t:hat?

l\Ir. JESSON: The hon. member said it a hundred times.

~Ir. Yeates: Rubbish!

Mr. JESSON: That is the point. Take the operations of the Brisbane City Council. It has spent money in improving the city, and has provided work for the unemployed. Owing to the financial stringency that arose the council could not get its requirements of loan money, and could not take advantage of the £70,000 subsidy from the Government. Had it been able to obtain loan money, that money, together with the subsidy from the Govern· ment, would have meant £140,000 to be spent in this city. Look at the work that would have been provided for the working people! Hon. members opposite wish to see that that money is not made available, so that more people will be forced to accept Chris~mas cheer from the Government and go on rations. They do not care what happens so long as they gain their ends. That is the position. If hon. members on the other side of the House were to take the time and study the question honestly and straightforwardly, they would know that the Government are doing the right thing, and that it is only a matter of two or three weeks till the City Council will be back on a decent footing.

lUr. DART (Wynnum) ( 4.8 p.m.) : I rise to oppose the Bill in its present form. I do not think it will be of much benefit to the city of Greater Brisbane. I was rather sur­prised to hear the Minister maKe the state­ment he did in regard to valuations. I was very disappointed vYhen he said that much of the land in the Greater Brisbane area was valueil at £30 a 16-perch allotment. A 16-perch allotment valued at £30 is only to be found in a svYamp or some low-lying area·. The real position is that, Yl·here the working man has his home and is paying rates on the land he owns, land is Yalued at between £100 and £120, and even more.

~Ir. Jesson: That is wrong.

I\Ir. DART: It is a truthful statement. We know very well that most of the land has been cut up into 16-perch allotments, and the Government will not build houses on anything: less than 32 perches.

A Government ll'Iember: You are quite wrong.

lUr. DART: The average valuation is about £120. It was also said that the ''Courier-Mail'' catered for the people who had properties of the greater values. Tho ''Courier-Mail'' has been endeaYouring to do its best in its comments on everyday topics. There are as many Labour subscribers to the ' 'Courier-?.fail'' as Nationalist Party or Country Party subscribers, just as there are thousands of people who do not take part in party politics, but simply vote for the man they think will give them the best deal in the interests of the State. Probably 25 per cent. of the people vote the Labour ticket, 25 per cent. support the Nationalist cause, and 50 per cent. owe no allegiance to any political party. Therefore, the ''Courier­Mail'' has a perfect right to submit opinions for the consideration of the large block of people who have no leanings to any political party, and it has done it in a fair and reason­able way.

I have already made some reference to the council valuations, and I should like to tell hon. members opposite that there are 16-perch allotments outside the boundaries of the Brisbane area valued at £230. I have a 16-perch allotment at vVynnum, outside the city boundary, which is valued at £230.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: Perhaps on a main road.

Mr. DART: I have a 16-perch allotment outside of the city boundary valued at £230. If any hon. member doubts my word he can verify the statement by ringing up the office of the local authority concerned. Only last week the Government entered into an arrange­ment with the Brisbane City Council to buy a piece of lancl at Wynnum for a high school or an intermediate school on an exchange basis providing for a purchase price at £350 an acre. \Vhy should hon. members opposite decry this city and try to lead the people, not only in Brisbane but throughout the State as well, to believe that there is so much land in the city valued at such low figures as they

Brisbane City Council. [22 NovEMBER.] Business and Procedure Bill. 18ll

have mentioned~ If land is valued at a very high figure in Queen street and the council is unable to get the money that it requires, the people should have some say in whether legis­lation sh01J.ld be introduced to give the council power to impose an additional rate of 4d. in the £1.

It is not my intention to make a political speech on the Bill as hon. members opposite have done. 'rheir sole purpose was to make statements in the hope that their seats would be safe for the next election, but I am here in the interests of the people as a >vhole, not to worry about the next elections. I leave it to the people concerned to say whether they require me any longer as their representative. l shall take full advantage of my position as a member of Parliament to discuss all import­v.nt measures affecting the welfare of .the people.

I must admit, Mr. Speaker, that you have acted very fail·ly in giving all hon. members considerable latitude in discussing the Bill. There is no doubt that the Minister trans­gressed the Standing Orders in dealing with subjects that were not relevant to the measure and that other hon. members opposite acted in a like manner, ]}ut I am going to deal with the Bill itself. In the first place, it is pro­posed that a chairman be appointed in the council and that he shall occupy the position at the head of the council table which was formerly helcl by the Lord Mayor. That must be very humiliating to the Lord Mayor. He will have to vacate the ehrrir in favour of another alderman. The Lord Mayor has occupied the chair at council meetings for a very long time, and he has the right to give a casting vote where the voting is equal. Apparently, it is proposed to ttrrke away the casting vote from the Lord Mayor and gi>·e it to the chairman. That is an injustice to a man who has held this high position for such a long time. He was elected to the position in accordance with the democratic will of the people of the whole city. Every­one had his say. If the Lord Mayor desires to leave the meeting temporarily, say for a cup of tea or other refreshment, he is at liberty to call in the Vice Lord Mayor to relieYe him in the chair. The Vice Lord Mayor has relieved the Lord Mayor in the chair on many occasions during his tempo­rary absence. Therefore, why the need for appointing a chairman when there is already an alderman who is able to fill the position and fill it well~

Then a member of the public service is to be seconded by the Government to the council. He will have a very big responsibility and very important duties. In fact, he will be a virtual dicta tor. He will be able to dictate to the officers in the various departments. We shall also have a super-dictator in the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs, who will represent the Governor in Council. This super·dictator vdll eontrol the dic·tator who will be above the Lord Mayor. This seconded officer will investigate the various departments and say: "This man is not capable, that man is capable, the other man is capable, and so on.'' Will the Lord Mayor be eonsulted lby

him? This officer will be in authority independent of the council. Messrs. McCracken and George, of the Public SeTvice Commissioner's Department, were appointed by the Premier independent of the council to investigate and report on the affairs of the C0lll10il.

Mr. Power: They were appointed at the invitation of the Lord :Mayor. You should be fair in your statements.

Mr. DART: If the hon. member . for Baroona cannot understand what I am saying he should keep quiet.

Mr. Power: He cannot be blamed for that, can he 9

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!

JUr. DART: These investigating officers investigated the position of the council and made their report in an independent way, and subsequently submitted it to the Premier.

At 4.17 p.m.,

).fr. KIJ'\G (Maree), one of the panel of Temporary Chairmen, relieved Mr. Speaker in the chair.

JUr. DART: The Premier, in turn, sub­mitted it to the Lord Mayor. The Premier was not good enough to furnish hon. members with this report. It certainly would have been very helpful when discussing the previ­ous Bill, and it might have eliminated much argument on this Bill. Although we were deprived of the report, we generally have the habit of getting the information we desh·c. This information has been handed to our lwn. members and was used by us last night in a very edifying manner. The Lord Mayor will have some responsibility under this Bill. He will have charge of the business h·ans­actions of the council, but the chairman will preside over committee meetings, and the officer so appointed by the Government will investigate and make recommendations to the chairman.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs : Who do you say would be in charge of the meetings~

Mr. DART: The chairman who will be appointed by the council will take charge of the committee meetings.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: He will not keep committees in order.

Mr. DART: A chairman is very neces­sary. In the past, we have had a chairman to preside over the meetings of the various committees, which numbered about seven. I am anxious to know from the Minister whether the chairman who is to be appointed under the Bill will preside over those meetings.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: No. He may be chairman acting in his ordinary capacity as a member of the council on committees.

Mr. ,DART: If he were to preside at all committee meetings--

1812 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and ProceduTe Bill.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: There are several sitting at one time on occasions.

I\Ir. DART: Yes. It would be very incon­venient if he was expected to preside at meetings of all committees; I understand from the Minister he is not to preside at all committees, but he will preside at more than the ordinary council meetings.

Tile Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: Every time the full council meets, whether in open council or committee. The council as a whole goes into committee some­times.

JUr. DART: The chairman will preside every time the full council meets. These com­mittees have been in the habit of presenting reports. Under the Bill, these reports will have to go first to the officer appointed by the Government before they go to the alder­men.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: If the hon. member read the Bill he would see that the duties of the officer to be appointed have nothing to do with reports.

ilir. DART: It is very vague; a good many things could be read into it. The whole trouble to-day is that committees meet, pre­pare reports, and forward them to the alder­men before they come befo1·e the council. l believe the committees should prepare theii reports and forward them direct to the council for consideration by the whole of the council. If that practice had been adopted, we should have avoided much of the trouble we are suffering from to-day. Many things are not left to the decision of the whole council; they are decided upon before they are submitted to the council. All these matters should be dealt with, and if a Bill was intro­duced eliminating party politics from the council it would be much better for all con­cerned. The Bill makes provision for the appointment of one officer only, the second being appointed by the council. There is no need to appoint a chail·man, the Vice Lord Mayor can take charge of meetings in the absence of the Lord Mayor.

There are many actiY'ities of the council that require very careful consideration. The income from: the Greater Brisbane area is approximately £3,800,000 a year, and in addi­tion the Government have been good enough to lend the council £100,000. Moreover, the GoY'ernment were also good enough to guaran­tee £100,000. In spite of all this, Parliament has had to pass a Bill to enable the council to recast its budget so that it can t~'< the people to raise a further £352,000. There haw been juggling and mismanagement. Many things are wrong, and will continue to be wrong in spite of the Bill before the House. It will not remedv the extravagance that has occurred, for one· thing.

Hon. members opposite have put forward arguments in the interests of the working­man, but I remind them that but for the employers the working-men would not get very far to-clay, Cer'tainly, the employer could not

got very far without the working-n1an. We on this side believe both the working-man and thC' employer must receive very careful con­sideration. I have never taken the view that one could get along yvithout the other. I know the position. I employ labour and pay my employees more than the basic wage.

iUr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! What the hon. member is saying is very interesting but it is all outside the Bill. I ask the hon. member to keep to the principles of the Bill.

~Ir. nART: The ratepayer has to find money to employ the working man. Hon. members opposite were boosting the working man as though we on this side gave him no consideTation. He is a very lbig asset ilt the life of the State, but so is the employer.

Mr. nEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The hon. m'embor is not keeping to the Bill. I \Yill not remind him again.

JUr. DART: My concern is as to how the council will manage under the system of government proposed by the Bill. Our desire is to see as many of the unemployed as pos­sible in work. As I have already pointed out, one section of the community is taxed to help the other but tax as the council may, it will not be ~ble to get the requisite money if it spends recklessly.

The Minister and others mentioned that many working-men were prepared to pay the tax. The same applies to the man who is not a Yvorker. \V e are· all anxious to see every man employed, but we also desire to obtain value for the m·oney collected by responsible people in the City Council.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: The ratepayers should not be con­cerned so much about the amount of the rates as about having the money expended in the proper direction.

~Ir. DART: As the Bill will affect all sections of the community we must suggest what we think will be in the best interests of all concerned. The Bill does not go far enough. It does not l)rovide for the dissolu­tion of the present council and the election by the people 'Of the men who they think will do the right thing.

It has been stated that the present posi­tion has been brought about by the fact that the council has been unable to obtain the money necessary to keep men employed. We all regret that so many men have been thrown out of employment. The Premier of this State was able to say, after returning from a meeting of the Loan Council, that he was well satisfied with the money he had obtained. Although we arc accused of being pleased with the fact that the council has not been able to obtain money, I assure hon. members that we were pleased that the Premier was so successful in his representations to the Loan Council, and we should be just as delighted if the Brisbane City Council was able to obtain the money it neecls.

~Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. member to return to the subject before the House.

BTisbane City Council [22 NovEMBER.] Business and PTocedure Bill. 1813

lUr. DART: At the present time, the civic affairs of Brisbane are controlled by seven committees. Will this Bill have any effect upon those committees, or will they continue to operate as at present~ 'vVill they be amalgamated under this officer who is to be appointed by the Government? Is this officer to be paid by the Government or by the council? vV e should like to see some provision for these matters contained in the Bill so that we may know exactly where we stand. As it is proposed to allow the present Lord Mayor and his party to continue in office for some time before giving the electors an opportunity of expressing their satisfac­tion or otherwise with the present administra­tion, much harm can be done before the next civic elections. It will only be four or five months before the next elections take place, but that time is too long to wait. So many things could happen in the way of mles and regulations that will come from the Govern­ment. As I said before, the Government will be the super-dictator and the officer ·of the public service seconded to the Brisbane Citv Council will be the dictator. "

Itir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) ( 4.36 p.m.): I listened to the remarks of the hon. member for Fortitude V alley yesterday with a great deal of interest, particularly because I have known him for a long while. \Vere it not for that fact I should be more trenchrmt in my comment on his contribution to this debate. I should have liked to have said, ''How could you, Sam ~ '' had I been allowed. He suggested that members of the Opposition were all the while telling the money-lenders not to gh·e the Brisbane City Council any money. \Vhat terrible trash that was from the hon. member!

A Government lUeml:Jer: It is true.

])fr. YEATES: Rubbish! Fancy that statement from a man I respect! I cannot understand it. I can only attribute it to this shocking party system of sending stuff out tlll'ough '' Hansard'' to win the next election.

I notice that the Premier is not taking a veq active part in this debate, although on a previous occasion he came along and waded through muddy water and tried to straighten the position out. It is noticeable that he is keeping well away to-day, and leaving the passage of this Bill to the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs.

Coming to the "Right Honourable Sir Cecil George J esson ''-well, I will save columns of '' Hansard'' out of respect for the Premier, and dismiss everything that hon. member said as nothing. He is definitely dismissed. So I pass to the mover of the second reading. The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs came along here ono night about a week ago with a far better case, so to speak. It was a very bad case, hut he came along in the humour to do things. Let me pay him ~his credit-I say this quite candidly and \nth­out regard for party politics-that he knows perfectly well what is wanted. He knows IYhat should be done and he IYOuld say what should be done if he could only get away from the Trades and La hour Council, the

unions, and other bodies connected with the Labour Party. I will give him that credit. You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, know it is true. HaYc you ever been in a printing officeW

.:lir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. member to get to the Bill. I have been reasonably lenient waiting for him to deal IYith the Bill.

lUr. YEATES: Since the Minister intro­duced the City of Brisbane Financial Emer­gency Bill he has Tetreated fTDm what he intended to do. I suppose it is not his fault, although it is in a way, because he should be man enough to get up and say, ''I should like . " What I was about to say is not parliamentary. (Laughter.) At any rate, he should get up and do the right thing. He should tell the aldermen to go before' the people again. Thi13 milk and water business makes me absolutely sick. \Vhen he introduced the other Bill, he said what he wa~ going to do and I admired him for his courage, but I am afraid that I was not fully j ustifieil in my aclmira tion of him.

The present Greater Brisbane area is far too unwieldy. Many of the outlying districts should be seveTed from the' Greater Brisbane area and included in adjoining local authori­ties, so that the Greater Brisbane area of 385 square miles would be reduce·d by about half. Of course, it does not follow that the popula­tion would also be reduced by half. Then only 10 or 12 aldermen would he needed.

])Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! There are only four principles in the Bill, and I inYite the hon. n1emhcr to deal with them.

Mr. YEATES: I believe that what I am discussing is also in th·e Bill.

:Th'rr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I rule against the hon. nwmbeT.

Mr. YEATES: Well, we shall see. The curse of party politics should be exoTcised from municipal affairs in the interests of the people of the State as a whole. Municipal government will never be a success while it is allo,rcd to remain. The :Minister knows that, and so do some of the other hon. members opposite who are able to think on the subject. The curse of paTty politics has hindered progress in this State foT the past 25 years. So long as the Brisbane City Coun­cil comprises 20 aldermen there will be party politics. The Labour representatives on the BTisbane City Council are in the majority, and they have theiT eyes always on th~ ballot­box. Thev are concerned at all times to know how 'their nctions will affect their pros­pects at the next election and how they will react on the Labour Government. Those are the things thnt are pammount with them­the curse of party politics.

T'he Lord Mayor should be elected by the aldeTmen of the council. I am' surprised that hon. members opposite are not protP9ting against that suggestion. Do they approve of it 'I Let the alclem1en elect their own Lord J\iayor. The setting of _Popula_r~ty ::gain~t abilitv is another cuTse m pohhcs m th1s count~y. It is pandering to the populaT Yote.

1814 Brisbane City Council [ASSElVIBL Y.] Business and Procedure Bill.

The person >Yho goes to all football matches, gives out donations, and plays hide and seek with this one and that one, gets the votes. Is that the way to run a country, a city council, or a shire council, even the shire of Drayton ~

JUr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. YEATES: This Bill provides that a public servant shall go quietly along and dictate to the council. Who is going to pay him~ I want to know what department he will be seconded from, who is going to pay the piper, and what remuneration he will receive. He will go to the council to tell the Lord Mayor, with his robes and gold chain, and the 20 aldermen what they have to do. Will not that be a shocking humiliation for them~ Should they not be downright ashamed of themselves for putting up with it~ .Just imagine you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, being in that position~ Knowing you as I do, I do not dream for one moment that you would put up with it for two days. You would resign.

1\Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

I\Ir. YEATES: This seconded officer is to overhaul all the council's services. Will he not, to all intents and purposes, be rep­resenting the Government~ Why, in the name of goodness, do not the Government run the whole show and be done with it, in much the same way as they avoided their responsibili­ties under the Income (Unemployment Relief) Tax Act and replaced it with the Income (State Development) Tax AcH That was only camouflage to hoodwink the non-thinking section of the people.

Then we had all this talk from the ''Right Honourable Sir Cecil George .J esson" about the poor unfortunate working man.

I\Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

JUr. YEATES: It was all so much rub­bish. It is all nonsense to talk about the poor unfortunate working man. He set to and was. allowed to go on saying it. He spoke drsrespectfully of the capitalist and the shocking Tories with all the money they possess. The hon. n;ember for Kennedy is the first one to do busmess with those shocking Tories. As long as they hand out the money he will take it.

1\Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

lUr. YEATES: If another Bill is required to adj?st the council's affairs, why not intro­duce rt? Where is the Minister~ There should be no smoking in the Chamber.

lUr. DEPUTY SPEAI{ER: Order! I ask the hon. member to make his speech without attempting to be facetious.

1Ur. YEATES: Tl1e Minister has told us that another Bill to deal with the affairs of ~he Brisbane City_ Council .is to come along m a year. Why rs that Brll not introduced this session? Why does not Parliament con­tinue to sit until that Bill is passed? What excuse _have the Government got for running away mto a hollow log, like kangaroo rats,

instead of staying here and finishing their job if it has to be done? One can see through all these excuses. One can see what is hap­pening-it is an attempt to go along as quietly as possible and curry favour with the voters in the meantime. The Lord Mayor should be responsible to the council; if not then he is not worth two-pence-worth of straw. \Vhy do they want another chairman~ If the size of the Greater Brisbane area and the number of aldermen were reduced, there would be less need for a chairman; in fact, the appointment of one is not justified now. The disturbances at meetings uf the council are due to the con­duct of certain aldermen, who should be dis­missed. I suggest that the Brisbane City Council should take a lesson from local authorities in other places. The prevalence of mosquitoes in the Greater Brisbane Area shows that, despite all their talk about science, their methods of combating the mos­quito have not been successful. Let them go to Toowoomba and they will learn how to eradicate mosquitoes and how to manage the finances of a council successfully, and they will be charged nothing for the information­

there will be no commissioners to pay, certainly not £2,000. I could have told the Railway Department what it paid £2,000 to be told, and then did :not carry out.

The Bill is definitely taking from the Bris­bane City Council all its authority; it leaves an expensive crowd of emasculated bumbles shorn of their main function. (Loud laughter.)

JUr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

I\Ir. YEATES: Unless an hon. member fearlessly states his case, he might as well stay in the fowlyard at home. ·

I thought it shocking presumption of ihe Minister the other day to say, in effect, that the first town clerk appointed in Brisbane did not know his job and was· not worth his salt. That was a shocking thing to say. Colonel Annand was one uf the best men the council ever had there.

Although I am not suggesting it, I do not see anything much wrong with a civic com­mission. The Sydney ''Sun,'' which was quoted by the Minister, is not an authority on municipal government. The local Press, the ''Courier-Mail,'' the ''Telegraph,'' and ''Truth,'' know the local conditions and know what they are talking about; and they know something is definitely wrong "ivith the affairs of the Brisbane City Council. So does the Toowoomba ''Chronicle,'' the leading ld. daily in Queensland.

I recommend to the Government that they dismiss the council right awvJ, and send the aldermen before the people. Is not that sug­gestion democratic enough for those back­benchers who have had such a great deal to say?

The Government sent Messrs. Jl.fcCracken and George to do certain work at the tow11 hall. I do not know whether the council has paid them or whether the Government will do so-that is a matter for them to see to-what I want to know is why the report has been

Suspension of Member. [22 NoVEMBER.] Brisbane City Council, &c., Bill. 1815

put in a secret conclave, the same as the report of the Royal Commission on the Rail­ways. I asked for that on many occasions.

lUr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I informed thG" hon. member--

Jir. YEATES: Mr. Deputy Speaker-­

Jir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I am asking the hon. member to keep to the Bill. He is getting away from the subject, and if he continues in that strain I shall ask him to resume his seat.

I\Ir. YEATES: The Brisbane City Council has been in the habit of spending £1,000,000 a year merely because it could get it. That means increased rates every year. Of course, it is the real policy of Labour in the past 10 years, a policy of borrow, boom and burst. No thought is given of to-morrow. It is a case of borrow all that can be got, spend it, and give no heed to posterity. I remind hon. members opposite, including the hon. member for Bowen, that posterity includes the sons and daughters of artisans ancl the people who are labouring with picks and shovels. I will not have all this talk about the wOTking man. We will gloss it over differently, and say manual labourers with picks and shovels. All those are included in posterity.

lUr. UEPU'rY SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. member to resume his seat.

l\Ir. YEATES: The Auditor-General-­

lUr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I asked the hon. member to resume his seat.

ltir. YEATES: I am not going--

3Ir. DEPCTY SPEAKER: I asked the hon. member to resume his seat.

1\'Ir. YEATES: The Auditor-General's report--

lUr. DEPU'i'Y SPEAKER: I asked the hon. member to resume his seat. Is he going to do it~

lUr. YKtTES: You didn't do that to the others.

lUr. UEPUTY SPEAKER: I asked the hon. member for East Toowoomba to resume his seat.

l\Ir. YEATES: You allowed the hon. member for Kennecly to talk all round the place.

SUSPEXSION OF MEMBER.

lUr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I name the hon. member for East Toowoomba for dis­o beclience to the Chair.

lUr. YEATES: All right. I am going to quote the Auditor-General's report.

]'Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I have named the hon. member for East Toowoomba for repeated disobedience to my call to order whilst in the chair. I gave him ample oppor­tunity to retum to the subject, but he has defied the Chair.

Tlte PREitiiER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, lvlackay) (4.58 p.m.): In view of the oppor­tunities he has received to vvithdraw, it is my duty to move the suspension of the hon. mem­ber from the service of this House. I there­fore move-

'' That the hon. member for East Too­woomba be suspended from the service of this House for the remainder of the session.''

JUr. Maher: But you will give him an opportunity to make amends~

Tlte PREMIER: He has been given an opportunity.

lUr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: He has been given an opportunity to make amends.

An Opposition Member: He is hard of hearing.

The PRElUIER: Has the hon. member for East 'l'oowoomba anything to say in mitigation~

Mr. YEATES: If the House sits to­morrow I will ·withdraw and apologise for any mistake.

The PREMIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, thCTe is no possible hope of attempting to deal with the hon. member other than by suspension. He has deliberately defied your authority, and hon. members who do that sort of thing can only be dealt with under the Standing Orders of the House, and I there­fore move-

'' That the hon. member for East Too­woomba be suspended from the service of this House for the remainder of the session.''

Motion (Mr. Smith) agreed to.

The Premier: He has to withdraw from the precincts of the House.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I ask the hon. member for East Toowoomba to withdraw from the entire precincts of the House.

BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL BUSINESS AND PROCEDURE BILL.

SECOND READING--RESUJ\IPT'IO:<r OF DEBATE .•

Mr. lUOORE (Aubigny) (5 p.m.): Many important issues are involved in this Bill, but a great deal of propaganda has been put forward whilst its introduction and second reading have been under discussion.

An important factor, of course, is that no greater condemnation of the present Brisbane City Council could be had than the Bill that have been introduced into this House. In the first plac·e, we have in them evidence of the Government's entire lack of confidence in the council's ability to do even a simple thiJ?-g such as the striking of a rate. 'L'he mam function of a local authority or municipal Council is the framing of its budget. In framing it the council must strike a rate adequate t~ meet the responsibilities that it has to undertake. The other clay a Bill was introduced under which the Brisbane City

1816 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

Council is not allowed to strike a rate without referring the matter to the Auditor-General for his approval, so that he may say whether it is adequate to meet the council's commit­ments.

At 5.21 p.m.,

l\Ir. SPEAKER resumed the chair.

Mr. II'IOORE: In the second place, we have this Bill in which the Governor in Council is given power to make rules and standing orders for the conduct of the business of the Brisbane City Council. In this House we have a Standing Orders Committee that is responsible for the making of the Standing Orders and Rulea for the conduct of debate here. The Brisbane City Council, however, is to have no say in the rules or standing orders for the conduct of business in its sphere-they are to be made by the Governor in Council. Can anyone imagine any body of men popularly elected to conduct the affairs of a city such as the Brisbane City Council being placed in such an invidious position~

Then we go further and say that the Government may appoint a Government official who shall have all the powers of dictatorship to go into all the departments of the Brisbane City Council to see whether there is over­lapping, whether the officers in charge are administering them efficiently, and whether value is being obtained for all money expended. In fact, every activity of the Brisbane City Council is subject to the review of this official. He is going to have a tre­mendously difficult job.

Furthermore, the Bill provides that the recommendations that are made by this official shall be given effect to by the council. There ~s n? need for the council to be there at all, m new of the provisions contained in the two Bills that have been introduced in the last f~w weeks. Its whole responsibility is gwen, first of all, to the Auditor-General in approving of any rate, in the second place to the Governor in Council ·who makes rules and regulations for the co{Hluct of the busi­ness of the cou:ncil, and thirdly, to the ,officer who is to be appointed by the Department of Health and Home Affairs to regulate and have control over the whole of its departments, to see that there is co-operation and that they are efficiently administered.

Then, the most extraordinary clause of all, in my opinion, is that under which the Governor in Council takes po,wr to rescind, from the beginning or at any time at all, any contract or agreement that has been made during the present council's term. ·what is left for the Brisbane City Council~ The Government have taken the opportunity on one or two occasions to veto contracts or resolutions carried by the council. 'l'his pro­Yision in the Bill goes a tremendous distance fmther than that. It gives power to the Government to rescind definite c-ontracts entered into, definite agreements entered into, although I understand from the Minister that he proposes to introduce an amendment to the effect that some system of compensation may be put into operation. Under this provision,

the ordinary common-law right of the indivi­dual as regards contracts is taken away. The Governor in Council has the absolute power to rescind any resolution, agreement, or con­tract entered into by the Council.

Mr. Walsh: Your imagination is running away with you.

I\Ir. lUOORE: No. It is surprising to me that the :Minister has not gone the whole hog, dissolved the council, and put this system into operation and placed the whole business on a proper basis before the next election takes place.

To show that it is necessary that something should be clone, you have only to take the Auditor-General's report laid on the table of the House this morning dealing with the books and accounts of the Brisbane City Council for the financial year 1938-1939. The balance-sheets of the various departments of the council are given, a11d they provide inter­esting reading. One can see the condition the council has got into when one comes across the following statement, which appears on page 3 of the report-

'' The question of providing adequate depreciation has been brought under notice on various occasions, and on 20 June, 1939, the council appointed a select committee, comprising the town clerk as chairman, the city treasurer, and the accountants of the Department of 'l'ramways and Power House, Electricity Supply and W arks, Water Sup­ply and Sewerage, for the pmpose of con­ducting a detailed and comprehensive sur­vey of the position. The committee is required to report fully on the matter and advise what further provision is essential to ensure that full depreciation of assets will have effect.''

This very illuminating pamgraph concludes by saying-

'' Although the committee was appointed over four months ago, it has not yet functioned.''

This question of depreciation •vas commented on in the same Teport last year, and also by the State Electricity Commission.

At the top of page 3 of the report we find-" From 1 July, 1936, the benefit to the City

Fund from these undertakings increased because of the deletion from the budget of provisions for depreciation, supplementaTy to loans sinking fund payments, and redemption of loans. Depreciation limited in this manner is inadequate, and it follows that too gTeat a contTibution is being required by the undertakings mentioned to obviate the obtaining of additional revenue by the rating divisions.''

On page 2 is to be found this-

'' Dming the past three years the con­tributions to the City Fund by the success­ful undertakings were-

Year. 1936-37 1937-38 1938-39

£ s. d. 292,118 3 1 244,285 19 8 191,719 10 5"

Brisbane City Council [22 NovEMBER.] Business and Procedure Bill. 1817

It is further stated-

"Without these contributions the rate of expenditure on ClVl<l maintenance and administration could have been maintained only by increased rates in the general divi­sion and the water supply and sewerage undertakings. Since the inception of Greater Brisbane, £I,I03,505 I5s. 3d. has been provided by the three undertakings for the benfit of these two sections.''

It is to be hoped that the official appointed by the Government will go into the question of adequate provision for the various depart­ments in the council, and that he will take into consideration the necessity for providing for depreciation. Some investigation is cer­tainly required.

The following appears on page 23 of the second report of the State Electricity Commission:-

''The Commission has examined the loan commitments of the Bris·bane City Coun­cil Electricity Supply Department, one of the publicly-owned electric authorities in the State, and has found, at the time of its investigations in approximately June, I939, that loa:ns amounting to £I,086,708 were current. Of these loans only £242,839 possessed redemption provisions that would enable the loans to be extinguished within the periods of the loans. Loans amounting to £545,823 were current that had sinking fund provisions to liquid•ate the amounts borrowed at the end of loan periods. The carry-over under this group of loans was £342,973 Is. 3d. This group was made up of four loans-two having a currency of IO, one of 20, and one of 30 years. The remaining group consisted of I5 loans totalling £500,896, and the periods ranged from five to 20 years, and at the maturing dates £4I9,797 5s. Id. of the sum borrowed would be unredeemed. It is interesting to convert these amounts into percentages. J<'or example, of a loan maturing in I94I, 94.583 per cent. would be unredeemed at maturity; of a loan maturing in I943, 94.583 per cent._ would be unredeemed at maturity; of four loans maturing in I946, 87.993 per cent. would be unredeemed; of five loans maturing in I949, 84.974 per cent. would be unredeemed; of a loan maturing in I952, 79.976 per cent. would be unredeemed; and of loans matur­ing in I953, 72.42 per cent. of the . total sums would be unredeemed.,.,

There is the reason why the Brisbane City Council is unable to borrow money. It is not because of the war or because of any action of the Tory Federal Government­according to hon. members opposite-in restricting loan funds. No restrictions were imposed upon the Brisbane City Council in the borrowing of money for its purposes this year. The answer to the question why the council got into financial difficulties is con­tained in the report of the State Electricity Commission, which says that the provisions for redemption are utterly inadequate, having regard to the amounts borrowed. The works

that have been carried out with the money will be worn out before the loans mature.

The council also borrowed £90,000 from its own sinking fund. Naturally, all these finan­cial methods must have a, depressing effect and make it extremely difficult for the coun­cil to borrow money. The diffieulties were not created by the war. It indulged in extravagant expenditure over a period of years and it was not justified in reducing the rates in view of its financial position, It used the unemployment relief money pro­vided by the Government to carry out its ordinary work until the Government stopped the practice. It also used loan money to do work that should have been done from revenue. All these things went to make the position of the council extremely difficult until there was little likelihood of its being able to raise enough money for its purposes. Although the Government were prepared to guarantee a loan, no financial institution was willing to accommodate the council because it preferred to make an advance on the security of the assets of the council, if they were attractive enough, to making it on the secur­ity of a guarantor. Naturally, all the ques­tionable financial arrangements that the coun­cil made in an endeavour to carry on, made it more and more difficult for the Lord Mayor to get funds.

The Minister the other day referred to a leading article that had appeared in the Sydney ''Sun,'' and put it forward as proof positive of public opinion at a time when a civic commission adminstBred the affairs of the Sydney City Council, yet rejected absolutely articles appearing in the Brisbane Press as expressing the public opinion of the people of Brisbane. There is no difference between the two papers, excep't that one paper is more reliable than the other, and the Brisbane paper is still in existence and the other is not. The ''Courier-Mail'' is pub­lished in the interests of the people of Bris­bane.

As hon. members opposite in one or two cases pointed out, the effects of the financial orgy that has been going on in the municipal sphere in Brisbane will have an effect on the whole of Queensland. It is absolutely neces­sary that some steps be taken to clean it up. The only regret I have is that those steps are not drastic enough. The humiliation put upon the council is bad .enough, but it does not go far enough. The Lord Mayor and aldermen will have very limited power, because nearly all authority will be wielded by the Government. They can be overruled, and can be compelled to carry on their work under rules and conditions as laid down by the Government. The decisions of the Government must be given effect to, and they can rescind contracts at any time. I cannot imagine any council that would not resent such far-reaching interference with its powers, and refuse to carry on under such a scheme as this. It must be a tremendous humiliation for them to be deprived of practically all power.

We find that criticism has been levelled at the administration of the council in official

1818 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

reports, including the reports of Messrs. George and McCracken, the Auditor-General, and, finally, the State Electricity Commission. These all tend to show that the finances of the council are in a hopeless muddle. Now, an outside organisation is to enter the council. The council is not to be even allowed to strike its own rate without first submitting its proposal to the Auditor-General, who "ITill examine the rate to see if it is adequate, and, if so, '' O.K.'' .it. Then we have the Government's secondmg an officer of the State to reorganise all the departments of the council, and see that officers conducting them give value for their services, and that there is no overlapping. That v.·ill be decidedly beneficia] and the need for it has been apparent for some time. One of the serious defects of the council's administra­tion is the overlapping of the different depart­ments. We see roads constructed and torn up again in a comparatively short tim~. There seems to be a lack of co-ordination between the various departments.

It seems to me to be contradictory for the Minister to prate about the democratic basis of the council, and then to institute a system like this. In effect, he is setting aside the democratic principle on which the council is based and handing over authority to someone else to cany out its duties. The council's main functions are to be abrogated. I should not lilw to be the Government officer to be placed in charge of the reorganisation of the council. If he meets with opposition from the council it will be very awkward for him. He will then find it extraordinarily difficult to carry out the work. Naturally, the council does not desire any person to be put in by the Government to ovenide it in every possible way, and everything he does wi]] be subject to criticism. He will be merely carrying out work that should have been done, and which the council neglected to do. The members of the council will be merely figureheads with no po>Yer at all. The responsibility for the shortcomings in the administration will have to be borne by the council. If the present state of affairs are remedied then the Govemment will receive the credit. They will be able to say: ''Our officer has gone through all the departments, and has carried out the work he was put there to do. '' There is a very long list of duties to be undertaken by this officer to ensure the establishment and continuance of a proper standard of efficiency and economy.

Tlie Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: It is not a matter of who gets the credit as long as the work is done.

lUr. lUOORE: What seems to me to be unfair is that this council is being kept there without any power at all, but has to take the responsibility for someone else who is going to say how the work is to be carried out. It seems to me it would be infinitely better for the Government to take all responsibility, dissolve the present council straight away, and put an officer in there and ,,-hen things are on such a basis that the Minister thinks administration can be successfully conducted,

have an election and let somebody else come in.

Tlie Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: It would be hardly reasonable to do that; a Minister does not resign in those circumstances.

Mr. lUOORE: No Minister has been placed in the position of the Brisbane City Council.

Tlte Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: It is merely a reorganisation of staff.

~Ir. lUOORE: It is more than that. Then there is the position that any decision made by the council can be overridden by an out­side authority.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: Every decision a Minister makes in a matter over £500 has to be submitted to another authority.

Mr. ~IOORE: He is a member of that authority, the Cabinet; that is a different position. This concerns the whole council. No matter what decision it arrives at or what contract it enters into, it can be overridden and the contract rescinded by the Government at any time. It can be rescinded from the beginning, which is tremendous power to take.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: Only once has the power of veto been exercised in that way.

Itir. ItiOORE: I know. But, presumably, the reason for putting that clause in the Bill is that there was an intention of rescind­ing other resolutions or contracts; and it may be necessary to do so. That will depend to a very great extent upon the report that is made to the Government, presumably by the officer that they put in theTe. He will have an exceedingly distasteful and diffi­cult task before him. Naturally, he is going to have the opposition of the council in the carrying out of his work. Everything that he recommends that is contrary to the methods that have lbeen follov.-ed at the City Hall is a reflection on the council or the committee contro11ing the department for having allowed it to continue in that unsatisfactory position.

Some of the blame for the position of the council must be taken by the Minister him­self owing to the alteration of the Act he made in 1936. The Auditor-Ge11eral and the State Electricity Commission drew attention to ,,-hat has happened as a result. It appeared to be a dangerous proceeding and the council took full advantage of it. It seems to me that the reason for the diffi· culty in which the council finds itself in get­ting loan money is the unsatisfactory posi· tion as regards that provision, under which these departments were allowed to use the amount set aside for depreciation-the obsole'scence fund-for ordinary revenue pur­poses, and when it came to replacing it the money had to be borrowed from loan funds. The same thing happened for many years, and I suppose still continues in the Railway Department. Money was borro>Yed to build rolling-stock and an engine to start with, but

Brisbane City Council [22 NovEMBER.] Business and Procedure Bill. 1819

no depreciation was put on one side, and when the engine and rolling-stock wore out further money had to be borrowed to build others. That is the same practice that is going on in the Brisbane City Council to-day, and that is what these reports I mentioned drew attention to.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: The method pursued in the larger English cities is to average the length of life of the assets paid for by loans and strike a sinking fund.

JUr. :iliOORE: That is quite right; that would be a sensible practice; that is viTtually what the Auditor-General and the State Electricity Commission suggest. They point out that by the time obsolescence comes about and an asset has to be replaced, there will still be approximately 87 per cent. not pro­vided for. One of the big factors in obtain­ing adequate loan funds is the soundness of a municipality's management of its affairs. Ordinary financial institutions, such as the Commonwealth Bank and others, that provide money for the council, do not act on what hon. members in this House or opposition members in the council say, but on the report on the affairs made by the Auditor-General. If they see that the council is in a sound position they see then an opportunity for investment and investors are prepared to sub­scribe their money. It is regarded by brokers as being a sound investment. On the other hand, if it is seen that the works on which loan money has been expended are likely to become obsolete, and have to be replaced before the loan is redeemed, and there is a large balance that has to be covered by a conversion, naturally investors see that the position of the council is becoming less sound, and it does not require a war to close up the avenues of finance. The mere fact that the council has not been carrying out a policy likely to add to its credit and to give con­fidence to loan subscribers is enough. We ha\:e had loans floated in Sydney and Vic­tona, whereas we have the spectacle of the Lord Mayor of Brisbane running up and down to various places and brokers in the South, in an cnde:nour to get money. The real reason why he has not been able to get the loan is not because money is being tied up, or restrictions have been placed on loans generally, or anything of that sort, but because the financial position of the city is becoming gradually weaker. That is the difficulty and it is no use placing the blame vn somebody else or suggesting that it is because of Tory propaganda or the machin­ations of somebody who does not want this city to get money. The idea of hon. members vpposite that we on this side do not want the council to get money in order that men might be thrown out of work is too silly to deserve a reply. There is no sense in state­ments like that.

:ilir. R'iordan: No sense, but it is quite true.

JUr. JIOORE: It is not true. Hon. mem­bers opposite will not admit that the mal­administration of the finances of the Bris­bane City Council are responsible for the

gradual diminution in its credit. People are not prepared to lend money to carry on further works. No financial institution wants to lend money to a council that uses loan money to carry out ordinary work that ~hould be financed out of revenue, and makes Inade­quate provision for the repayment of the loan. Unfortunately, that is the position, and instead of trying to condone it, the best thing would be to recognise it, get rid of the council altogether, put it on a sound basis, and restore its credit before it is too late. 'J'he longer these things go on the more diffi­cult it \Yill be to get the necessary money to keep these services of the municipal authority going.

This Bill gives enormous powers to the Governor in Council and to the officer appointed by the Government for the conduct of the Brisbane City Council. It is not going to add to the credit of the council or improve its financial stability in the eyes of the investing public if that sort of thing is being done and the council is still left in existence, a mere figurehead, supposedly to carrv out what is desired. The power of veto or rescission taken by the Governor in Council does not give people confidence. No financial institution would be prepared to lend money to a council that had to have legislation brought in to supervise, oversee, and dictate to it, as is provided for in this Bill. Can anyone imagine any democm.tic organisation elected on a franchise as Wide as that of the Brisbane City Council not being given even the right to strike a rate without reference to the Auditor-General~

No financial institution that sees this coun­cil placed in the position of having someone else handling its affairs, of having the Governor in Council making rules and regula­tions for the conduct of its business, as well as exercis;ng the right to rescind any con­tract or agreement that is made by it, is going to ha,·e much confidence in that coun­cil when it comes to a question of lending it money.

Instead of remedying the position, the Government are making it worse. They are gi\·ing the Governor in Council power to over­rule that body's decisions and tell it exactly what to do in each of its departments. The council is being treated as a figurehead. Will anybody have any confidence in the credit of a body in that position? Would anybody in his senses lend money to an organisation that is placer1 in that invidious position? By their actions the Government are destroying the council's credit. The people wl10 have money to lend 1vant to see that those who borro\Y it haw control of the spending of it, that they have an thority to deal with it and to make anangements for its repayment. Under these Bills, someone else is going to carry the responsibility. Although the coun­cil is to have modified authority, the responsi­bility is to be carried by either the Governor in Council, the officeT put in by the Depart­ment of Health and Home AffaiTs, or the Governor in Council, who can rescind resolu­tions, contTacts, or agTeements that are actu­ally made. ~Who is going to have confidence

1820 Brisbane City Council [ASSEMBLY.] Business and Procedure Bill.

in a body that is in that position? It is obYious lhat people who are going to be asked to provide funds are not going to bury their heads in the sand. Thev will know what is being done under this "Em, and they will hesitate before lending any money under such circumstances.

lUr. Walsh: Do you think that this is akin to the position that existed when you were in power~

lUr. lUOORE: No, it is infinitely worse. We did have the responsibility of carrying out what we did. Wl1ether it was right or iVTong, we had to accept the responsibility. In this case, the responsibility is nominally with the Brisbane City Council, but actually with somebody else. I do not think it is a good principle to alloiY the body that got the city into this mess to be in the position of having nominal responsibility while some­one else has the actual responsibiltiy. S'uch a policy is not going to give people much confidence or induce them to lend money. Those who have money to lend want to see that those who borrow it haw the responsi­bility of carrying out the ~work for which it is borrowed, and of making provision for its repayment as ;vell as striking an adequate annual rate. If someone else is going to haYe the responsibility of that, then those iYho have the money to lend will not have much confidence in the council.

JUr. Power: The Government guarantee the loan.

Thir. ThiOORE: The Government always do that, but the Commonwealth Bank does not want to be placed in the position of calling upon the guarantor to meet the obligations of a defaulting municipality. The fact that the Government guarantee the loan is some secmity, but nobody wants to call upon the Government to honour it. Those who lend the money want to see that those who borrow it n1·e jn n re.csponsible rosition., that they :1re charged with the duty of carrying out the work efnciently, not that they can be so care­less of their responsibility that they will be unable to meet their obligations and so make it necessary to call upon the guarantors to do so.

I do not wish to say any more, but it does seem to me that this Bill is placing the Bris­bane City Council in a very unenYiable posi­tion, an extremely humiliating position, and the credit of the council >vill not be enhanced because although we are giving it nominal responsibility to borro1v the money the actual responsibility of spending it or carrying out work for which the council is elected is vested in somebody else. From that point of view, I think the Bill fails. From the aspect of safeguarding the GoYernment in its posi­tion as guarantor, it may be effective, but from the point of view of provic1ing proper gowrmnent for the city of Brisbane it sig­nally fails.

'l'lle PRE:;}IIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, ;\lackay) ( 5.36 p.m.) : It is very interesting to hear hon. members of the Opposition talk of the credit of the Brisbane City Council.

It is for that reason that I have risen to my feet-because of the criticism they have levelled at it and the comparisons they have made.

'The claim has been put forward by some hon. members that the Government forced the Brisbane City Council to employ quite a lot of labour, and because of that the council got into a particularly bad position. Other hon. members have said that the bad position of the council is clue to the Government's not giving the council the funds to which it was entitled. It is cptitH obvious that one statement cancels the other. You cannot have it both 1mys.

I wish to draw attention more particularly to the position in the other States. Of the sum of over £8,000,000 approved by the Loan Council in June, only a little over £3,000,000 has been raised in any part of Australia. It is usual in semi-goyernmental borrowings to have finance arranged for by the end of the calendar year. This year less than half of the amount approved by the Loan Council has been raised, irrespective of the State con­cerned. 'l'he chief reason for that is, as anybody who is impartial will admit, that financial institutions were holding off a}1d were advised to hold off in view of the uncertainty of the defence requirements of Australia in its conduct of the war. From the outbreak of war until the last Loan Council meeting, people expected to have a defence loan on the market at any date. As a consequence, financial institutions were holcling off semi-goyemmentals. 'l'he Metro­politan Water, Sewerage, and Drainage Board of Sydney is in entirely the same posi­tion as the Brisbane CitY Council. It has dismissed approximately 4,000 men iYho were employed on water-supply and sewerage work. The Federal Treasurer received a deputation about the unemployment caused in this way, and, as a result of that deputa­tion. £ilii0 000 1v~q found to enable that boa1:cl to ~·ccomme1;ce some of its work. Negotiations are still going on to enable the board to obtain funds. Nobody in New South Wales attacked that board or the Govern­ment of that State for not being able to raise that money. The Govemment endea­Youred to help the board to obtain funds, and, as a result, £350,000 was provided by the CommomYealth Bank. On my recom­mendation ancl representation, a fmt"4er £100,000 was made available at the same time by the Commonwealth Bank Board for similar purposes in Brisbane. No financial institution contends that the credit-worthi­ness of Brisbane is any less than that of any other local authority in Australia. That con­tention is made oi1ly by political perverts who are endeavouring to destroy the organi­sation, because of the politics of the members of the local authority concemed. I say that very definitely, because there is a complete analogy between the classes o£ 1York involved in Sydney and in Brisbane, where both local authorities haYe lwc1 to dismiss men, and, as a consequence, are in the same difficulty.

The hon. member for Aubigny referred to the loan of £600,000 raised by the Sydney

Brisbane City Council [22 NovEMBER.] Business and Procedure Bill. 1821

County Council. That was underwritten, but the point is that it placed its loan on the market at the psychological moment, that being after the announcement from Canberra by the Prime Minister and the Premiers of the States that we did not pro­pose to go on the market at all during the present calendar year, and that \Ye had obtained bank credit to the extent of £10,000,000 at 3~ per cent. Is it not obYious that the money that had been held for the Loan Council or for defence purposes \Yas aYailable in Sydney at 1 per cent. greater than 3t per cent.?

1\Ir. Power: Logical.

'l'lle PRElUIER: Yes, logical to anyone who cares to look at it from an unbiase·cl point of view.

Jir. 1\Iaher: Does not the same position apply now in respect of the Brisbane City Council?

Tl1e PRE~IIER: I shall come to that later. Hon. members opposite did not men­tion the gntin ele1·ator loan in Victoria. That loan was put on the market some time ago, anrl the Grain Elevator Board had great difficulty, anr1 is still having great difficult:·, in connection \Yith it. It was taken up by various brokers and nndenvriters and it is still on the market. \Yill anyone in this House say that the Grain Elevator Board in Victoria is not :1 ble to shmv a TcmuneratiYe return for an inYe~tmc11t '? The loan has lagge<1 Qll tlw market simply bewnse it was plated on the market ,,hen this uncertainty exi~ted. In K C\Y So nth Wales 11 fairly l:1rgc project \Yas put before the Loan Comicil and tnnle<l down anti the matter is still being 110 .. otiate 1. Does anyone blame that local authority for not beil~g able to raise money for \\·atcr supply in New South \Vales:

}-. very large nmnbeT of men who were engaged on public \Yorks ha<l been thrown out of employment in both New South \Vales and Vietoria. Anvone ·who mwlYses the allocation of £~,000,000 made a...-allable by the Commmm·ealth Government to create employment will see at once that N CIY South \Y :1lcs an<1 Yictoria got the lion's share. \Vhy'' They got it on the proportion of the 1111emplonnent in those States. The money had fo l~e alloc:1ted where the unemploymer{t was greatrst, othen...-ise other States would haw got high<'r amounts. U a cl the position in Queensland been as bad as it is in Sydney then a higher amount would have been made a...-ailablc to this State. Mr. Spender, the· Assistant Fer1oral Treasurer, distributed the fum1s, not only on the basis of population, but on the basis also of the percentage of the population who were unemployed. \Vho can argue against the equity of such a system! I am not complaining of the action of the Commonwealth Assistant Treasurer in that regard. It is the equitable thing to make provision according to the needs of the States, and the percentage of unemployment in Syd­ney and Ilfelbourne is far greater than it is in Brisbane or Queensland generally.

1939-3N

The Brisbane City Council is at work at the present time preparing an amended budget.

An Opposition :ill ember: Too late.

The PRE:iliiER: Quite a lot of propa­ganda has been used against the Brisbane City Council. The very day the Loan Council at Canberra wa.s discussing some semi­governmental loans-the Treasurer can con­firm this-:-: there appeared in tllO' '' Svdney Morning Hernld'' and Sydney ''Daily" Tele­g~raph'' _a rq.'ort of_ the Brisbane City Coun­Cil meebng m wh1ch Alderman ::\1oorhouse was rqJOrte·c1 to have said, ''Every other local autlwnty c:1n get money. ·wh·y c:1n 't Drisb:1ne get money l It can't borrmv two bob because it has not got the security.'' These two p:1pcrs published that statement and the· ''Daily Telegraph'' set it out in black type~-that Brisbane, in effect, \Y3s not credit-worthy. Is such a st:1tement likely to help: That 11·as published in .New South \Vales to boost local authority loans in New South \Vales. I remember a very olcl say­ing, and it is a very tTue one, that it is a wry dirtv bird th:1t fouls its own nest. That is ":hat is being clone. The p3rtisan­ship in the council itself has done that body serious injmy.

All kinds of st:1tements h:1ve been made at various times, and at critic:1l times, calculatecl to injmc tlte prospects of Brisbane loans. \Vhile I was in negoti:1tion 1vith the Common­\Ye3lth B:1nk Board for £150,000, just about the end of the financial yeaT, I lwd to make a series of statements in the public PTess nf Brisbane tlwt "·ere featured showing that st:1temcnts made by members of the council \Ycrc untrue. People are so venomous in their hahed of anything attache(] to r.abour that they aTe •. ,·illing to injure their mYn institu­tions in on1er to gain their ends. Is there any­one in this House who ran say that after the huclgct is pass('(1 in the Ih·isbDl1e City C,lnneil, thereby strengthening its position, the G_overn­mrcnt cannot ol1tain funds for the Bnsbane C'itv Council~ The Brisbnnc City Counril will, in ~1uc course, obtain funds. ,

GoYernment l1Iemhers: Hear, hear!

The PRE:JIIER: But no local authority will be able, either in Queensland or else­where, to raise as much for semi-government purposes as 1vas expected in June, :1nd I protest against the use of the unfortunate position in the Brisbane City Council to deshoy the credit ·of the Brisbane people.

Government Jiembers: Hear, hear!

'l'lle PREJUIER: The Brisbane people are far more important than any member of a local authority. They are far more important th:1n any member of parliament.

Government Members: Hear, hear!

The PRE::liiER: Brisbane will be here and will be flourishing long after everyone within reach of my voice is dead; they, there­fore, who are public men, who h3Ye a public trust to caTry out, and who seek to injure

1822 Brisbane City Council, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

Brisbane, seek to injure their own State and seek to injure the country in which they live.

.JUr. Clayton: What did your party do when you \V ere in opposition? Just what you are accusing us of doing?

The Premier: When I was in opposi­tion I ncYcr did anything of any kind to injure the creuit of the State, and no one can produce a word from '' Hansard'' that I have cYer said that injured Queensland.

Government J1Iembers: Hear, hear!

The PREJUIER: And, as a matter of fact, if the hon. member who interjects cares to be truthful, he will admit that hon. members opposite have gone through '' Han­sard'' since 1915, with unremitting care and unflagging zeal, to try to find something the Premier of Queensland said that could be used against his party, but they have failed.

:'fir. ::I'Ioore: We have not bothered. (Opposition interruption.)

JUr. SPEAKER: Order!

The PREJUIER: "\Vhile we are on this subject, I might mention that I kna>Y, also, that when I first became Premier, members of the United Australia Partv endeavoured to queer the pitch of Queenslarid at the Loan Council.

lUr. :Nimmo: There was no United Aus­tralia Party in Queensland. then-it was Country-Nationalist.

The PREl'\IIER: When I first became Premier members of the hon. member's party endeaYoured to use their influence with Com­monwealth Ministers to prevent Queensland from getting money, but they could not suc­ceed for the simple reason that the Financial Agreement itself provides that every State is entitled to its share. I could apply the formula at any time without loss to Queens­land. It may not be good policy to do it, but if I were put into a corner I should not hesitate to do it-to use every resource at our disposal. Hon. members opposite arc so annoyed with being in opposition for such a long period that their venom has grown with the years, and they would do anything in their power to injure this Government.

This Bill is based on sound principles. It will put the Brisbane City Council in a better administrative position than it is to-clay, and it will help the people of Brisbane to obtain better and more efficient local government. The statements about dictator­ship that have been made are merely silly, and emanate from minds that desire to injure and fl·om people \Yho will write or say anything to achie,-e the purpose they have to serYe. There is nothing in the Bill to justify the headlines of the Brisbane '' Courier-l\Iail'' of this morning. Such papers work on the line, which, from a journalist's point of view, may be quite good-for there is ahmys the cynical side of life to be served-that they ·should start something that will disturb the public mind, keep agitating about it, and thus sell additional papers and increase cir· culation. "\Vhen that is worn out, they start

something else. It is like the old story of the Tory politician giving advice to a young friend who had remonstrated with him about having said something that was untrue. The old Tory leader said: "Never mind about that, my boy. If you are caught out in one lie, tell another; keep them following you.'' That is the policy pursued by hon. members opposite. I am not endeavouring to defend maladministration or inefficient n.dministra­tion, but I am defending the interests of the people of Brisbane. Our legislation is devised in the interests of the Bri,bane people and to give greater efficiency for the Greater Brisbane Council.

Debate, on motion of Mr. Deacon, aujourned.

The House adjourned at 6 p.m.