legislative assembly tuesday september
TRANSCRIPT
Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
TUESDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 1926
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Papers. [14 SEPTE~IBER.] Audit Acts Amendment Bill. 597
TUESDAY, 14 SEPTEl\iBER, 1926.
The SPEAKER (Hon. \V. Bertram, Jiarec) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.
Ql'ESTIO""'S.
CSE OF STEAl\[ CRANES ON :\IARYBORO"CGH WHARF.
l'.lr. BRAND (Bu.rt um) asked the SecrctaQ for Haih·ays~
'· 1. What number of davs were each of tho two steam cranes on the ::Y1arv-borough "\Vharf used last year? ·
" 2. \\'hat was the quantity (''eight) and nature of material for which they •·ere: used'?
" 3. ·what was the revenue received bethe Raih- aj· Department for the use of the cranes and the expenditure incurred b:; the department in connection there\Yith:"
The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. J. Larcombe, li.1 Jlpel) replied-
" 1. Large crane used on two davs. Small crane used on forty-seven days . ...
"2. 1,353 tons~log timber and ma<'hincry.
'' 3. Revenue recf~ived by dcpartn1ent~ £34 11 .. CcL : expenditure incurred by department. £33 19s. 5d."
Pl'BLIC SF'tY!CE ~\PPEAL BOARDS.
;\Ir.. :\lOO RE (.1 ui;igny) as keel the Pr.'n.ricr-
" L \Y:wn \;erP appeal boards (boardc d('aling \vith Jccisions or recomn1cndations of the l'ublic Seniec Commis,iom'r) first constituted?
"2. J-Iow manv appeals have been heard bv <ueh boards'' , "3. In h_ow n1any ca,ses has tlw appeal ooard dec1dcd ag?.inst the dt-:cision or rccomrn{ 11dation o£ the Public ScrYicc Couunissioner?
" 4: In how tu any case" b as the appomte'' recommended bv the Public SfTYice Conunissioner been~ changed?"
The PR E::\:fiEit \Hon. V~-.. ~IcCorn1ack, Cr:irns) replied-
" L 8th :\larch, 1920. "2. Eight:• -four. " 3. Five (lnch1rling two simultaneou.-:,
appeals be, the one officer). " 4. In one case the Governor in
Council djsinis . .-ed the appeal and confinned the original appointnumt; in two case;_ thP successful appellants were Rppmnted to similar positions with prc·f'Or?a.t.Ion of seniority rjght~; in the rcruauung bvo cases the sucrc'),-;ful appellant will . displ~cc one of the original a.ppointees.
PAPERS. The following papers were laid on the
t.;ble, and ordered io be printed:-
Report frorn the Engineer for Harbours and RiYer' for the vear ended 30th June, 1926. "
Report of the ::VIarin~ Department for the year ended 30th J nne, 1926.
Annual Report of the Department of Agriculture and Stock for the 0·ear 1925-26.
~-\L:DIT ACTS AME""'D:.\IE::'\T BILL.
SECOKD READIKG.
The PRE::\HER (Hon. IV. McCormack. C'airn,,): On this Bill there is real!: nothing to add to what has already been stated. I again want to assure the House, as I did when the Bill was introduced. that the late Auditor-General, Mr. M. H. Robertson, thoroughly understood the position witb re~ g·ard to his retirement. If hon. members ·will read '' Hansard "-I do not want to go to tho trouble of wearying the House by reading- it again because the hon. member for vv·ynnum quoted it~fiJe,- will fmcl a ratement lw the th·'n Premier. the late I-Ion.
T . .J. Rviln: when int.roducing thF Audit _Act ,. h:ch fa.iled to pass the LegislatiYo Council, and which sets ant exactly the arrangement that had been made.
'.VIr. MAXWELL: Did that Bill ever go before the Legislative Council?
The PRK~IIER : It was passed ]'v this House. so I think it did. I jnst 1·;ant to '~'sure hon. members that there has been no disagreement with Mr. Robcrtson. From inquiries made from the late Premiers and' from n1v o~.yn f'Xp~'ricnce-and I have been in the Cabinet for a nnmlwr of YOBrs~I am in a position to 'ay that thc•re has been no disagreement in regard to the ~ riticis1n of the ·account·, bv Mr. Robertson; r111d Mr. Robertson hims.elf has stated in his report that he has ncY"r been interfered with. neither ha'< a \Vrong- suggeqJion 8YC:' hecn mad0 to him by the Goycrnment. That 'hould ••atic'fY hon. members that thP object in int-roducing this Bill is the need for a definite r. i·iring agf'. I w,1~ prepar·~c1 to fj~ tho retiring age at seY<?nt~·, h•1t I found that the Commom\·Falth GoYernn1Pnt and othrr State Govprumc·nts havf' 1naclc the age of rcti1'f'!11CEt. s.ixtv-fivc Yf'nrs, and in these' matb:~rs i"h0r0 is somf'thlng in h;:n~ing unifonnit.~·. It is rot a ·wise thing for nnv offteer-an officer of r ldia.n1C'nt, a jud~e .of the Snnrornc rourt. or an nffir."r nccup:Ting anv high po~ition ir! thr Publ1_c Srrvicc \Vhich ('arric:::; important r0:-:pon,,1~ hi!ities~to be nllowed a tenure for ]ifL. It i::: all YCrV \VC'll to :;:ny that nf'opL:· in :::nch pos1tions ·rccogni~e th.eiJ~ inability to c ·rr~ on when th('v reach a certain age. bvi c·xpcrie~ce shc;\''lS that they rlo P.ot. Exp0ri~ ence has :"h"-v,·n that there is a h='~·dcncv for -uch people to hold on. A jmle:c in <"\ow South \Vales "'as subjected to extraorclinary cr~1'icisrn b\ .1. litig~tnt: a rncmhcr of thr F0rleral P?rliamenf dnring thr ~1Parin~ of a diYorcc c:.-u;e. v.·ho act11allv told th0 iudg-e to his faco ln the ('Outt that~},,. ,,-a·~ :;:nfforingfrorn ~rnilc rlccar nnd shou1d bn rcJrnYC'd fro•11 the court. 'onlv then rlicl that official fmd it nc-re·"-'-~arv to r~tire. The GoY0l'YJ'-tCnt
ha,·e no p0wer~ to retire such r.1cn un1c::;:, a :;:pecial proYision is made.
l\h. KIKG: That did not upply to Lord I-:Ialsbur~v.
The PRE],UER: It may l'ot appl,· to n:any men. Looking throufih hictor" I find that som<; of tho great lenders nf the world haYe been verv ..-oung n1Pn and ~O'll'"' JJnYe
boon old men. "It is difficult to imliyiclnalise, bui· in connection v;ith the pnblic sen-ice i: is hctter to haYe ::t definite rrtir-in~7· age than to 11ave a man occnpying a po:;;ition of responsibility and power after reaching an age when he is of no more use to himself
Hon. W. McCormack.]
598 Audit Acts [ASSEl\IBL Y.J Amendment Bilt.
or the countrv. It- should not b0 neces'.clrv for me to strr··s that point any further. ·
The hon. n1emb,~,r for ~nadah con1plained bPcausc \vc did not ap110int the Deput:: Audito1·-Ccneral to the position. alld said that in the Commonwealth the next man in line to the late . .\uditor-Gcncral had received the appointment. That is untrue. l\.Ir. Cerutty, a Treasury official •.vho had been unrler 11r. Collins-·,ylJo wa~~ not in the }nHiit Department at all-1vas appointed in place of ~.h. Israel.
There should not be anv m•Pcl for mo to -stress the point that we aPrwintcd ti.1c nl<Hl V- 0 comiclNed best fitt<•d for the po·ilion. The appointrr:"nt 1v _:_ not a rcfl::-ction on a.rrv~ bod-. in the ~J.uclit Department. 1'he appoi,;t. mcnt of ;\h. Beal is a .- r at loss to the 'J'reasur.r Dep . .~.l'tn1cnt. but ~urcl· abilii r;nd sQn-lc~J ~houlcl ronnt in ~hcsc maitrrs. \Yhen these high positionJ arc aYailab1r the bc:;t n1an ,,hould be- appointed, and that y,Tas thP go.crning factor in th- appointn1ent of ~\Ir. Deal.
I might point out to hon. members that Tllr. n, al has sery,•d ne,"rlv the \\hole of hi., pul,[ic c:treer in the Audit' Department. Ho 1~: not nev. to the job. It i::; ll()t n-; thoU[.(h 'i\'l' \Ye re bringing jn somebod v who ha3 1;n knmdecl"'e of the v:ork of thl' :C\miit IJqnrtuu;r~t. I do not thlnk thei·e is <·IP.r need to <tre~s thl question a.ny further. The appointnlent 1.-:: a ~ood one. ::\1r. Robert:;:;on hvs retired of hi' own frc•' will. HP made the ar::'tL<.scnlCnt himself, fnll kno\Ying '' 1-:!:.t thp arrangenH r1t n1eant. to hirn. con;:,;qncntly there is no breach o[ contract-. ThPre v, onl·~l not ha Ye l ''en ,;ny breach of faith en·n it \Vt_• l18d forc,""'d hirn to r'-·tjrl~: he \\a~ not fotced to rc1 ire. He need for rc'Ol'f':'l_ni~at~0n in th=tt (1_cr ·rtn1Pnt. and I s.ay th.· :·;:• l· r.::-0d for rcorg:a!•l'Jttion. It •.rant" ,1
yonngcr man in the rusition-a capable n1an, n-- <! a r11an "', ho is d0+Cl'n1ini)d ~.:") hase di"r:pli:w in the department. All tho ·•" conditions ~:vnchroni~cd "'ivith the ti1nc when the Au( 1itor(;pncral reachrd th(~ al! -~ of ~event">' T;ear:-. \Y~:- arc1 not brcakjng an:.~ · 1~Ycrr-thinl~ that ha, bcrn don0 s l----•c n donr~ In the best of frjcndship. \Y~ nrc r.:-( t11-:-r an cxccll~nt 111an for tbo po_,}tion '1' cc•rt? . .inl" no CYidcnce bas bPt"ll brou!:!:ht a1·d tha't :\:r. Hobcrh Jll hC!s lH'en badl trrat0d or that t!JP GoYc'nHneiJt haLl anv ~1xe tn gri'.cl lll rctirinp- ::\lr. Robc~rt-~-;on. V ~hat 1.;; not 1he ca~'le. If n1en1bcrs desire i·o find out ::\Ir. Robcrtson's side of thr: tl•Pn I n,v,
'' Go hin1 and ask hin1 pc·, ;tio~ln a1~rl then can come hcr0 ;u1d critjcl:::c. I :llOYC-
"Thrrt the Bill l1e Lo·~v read a ::•'cond ti1n0."
='Ir. l\I<)ORE (A ulJ ·(f/11!1: Tn nr; opinion th:- .c\uditor-Grncral is , he rrH> in1portant of~ci .1 in the~ Stat:), bccnn•.; on dcYolYe.:;; the qurs.tlon of Sf'elng that the C0YC''nrnent ]Wnd the funds that haYc lwrn ;·ni,cd in the
''ay they han been a llnth•d. Of com·~e. I knon· to-dfly that the, Auditor-Genera] reallY H .\r::dJtor-GPncral in nc:.nw onlv. The 1nai;1 factol' is _that thr> A.ndjtor-G0iH'ral ~hould ~; rr~r1onstblc to Par~hrrncnt and not to th'' "-;oYcrnn10nt; but u_niortunDtcly jn tbe posi~~n!1 IYC' .ha,Yr' got tnh? to-da,\· the Audit.orucn -"r~'l 1:\ not rcspons1blc to Parlian1ent but to the ExccutiYc.
\Yhrn the Anditor-Gcnera] was appointer!, ~~rham0n; 1 had three definite ,•,afr~uards. .t 1rst of a!l, he was <'qlpointed for life; he
fJion. 1V. JfcGormack.
conlcl only bo rcmoyed for barl behn Yiour: and that could only be done after the pt:eSC'!Jtation of petitions to th0 Gm·ernor by both Houses of Parliament in the one session. There were three very definite safeguards in that. First of all, there was the definite safeguard of an independent ropre:.-,cnt 1.t.ive of the King-not a ropn,<enhtin of thf' King appointed b0 the ExecutiYe of this State '\Yho ha_..: LOt to cross evcrv "t" and dot C'VOrv " i ,', put before him vjn order tO hold hi;;; o\;n position.
The PRE)IIER : The Governor appointed by the Imperial authorities has l o do thd, too.
:.Lr. MOORE: He has not \'\'0 have had C overnors in this State that ha ye proved their independence in certain instances. VVe han• also seen the position !hey have got into in ~ e,,<. South \YaJeq
The ATTOICS'EY·GENFHAL: Yon clo r:ot bdicYP in { on;::;titutional government? "
l\.Ir. MOORE: I do belieYe in con -titntional government. rrhat is 0110 of thf' l'CLLS0l}S v,·hy I think this amendment of the Audit Act i3 being done in th8 ,,,rong '\V<1", The ·unend~ rncut creating an ag-e limit is rerlf'.OJwble enough, but under this Bill t[, .< _,vditor(~etwral will b{~ no longer rcspoJ··:ihle to P~1 I-le \Yill not carrY ant his dutie.:, 111 v. 1:'' he should. '
The l'RE'IIIER : \Vhy?
?fr. :\100:-:E: Bc{'ause he will be put in artd pnt oat b:·.r th0 Executive -~s tht} l~xc cutin' like>~.
T}w PIE~}IJER: ~o. There is no '1lteration of dte law in that respect.
~ ir. I\iOORE: The altel'at:on is t~ot )n the it i· in 1l1f~ 11ositiou of :d-lairs. \Ye
htn P n, L~.._'-utcnant-Governor , 1111ointc,~ by the E~ccutivc, and v.c have no L g:slttivC' CoPncil.
TIE' PR!Dli~H: That has nothing to do \Yith it.
~1r. ::\IOORE: The \YholC' nosition of the _\uditor-Geli'eml is altered alt-ogether. He i· onl~ rc-,pon~ible to the ExccutiYe. He prac'_iC'all~,T bccmnc an oiiicer of the· Trcam.1rv. IIr- iS a man who is auditing th0 acC'ount, ;f th,, ExerutiYc .. ho cmp!O)' him. 'fhr po.sition of the ..:\uditcl_'-GPncra! a.,.; llC'YCI' rnca11t
to be such as that. H0 WD' .upposed to be an_,werablo. not to the Goycrnm"nt bat to Parlimnent, but, if t.he _\.nditor-GcnC'l'.ll }.; lo bo appointed by und to be ansY:erablc,• to Parlia1ncnt, no- that ,,-,-t- ha\ e done a·," a..,vvith the safc0·u~xd of an int1 ~pendt~nt rcprC'3Cntativc in rcf,>-~tJ t.o the GoYt~rnor and bt1 YC abolished thn Lot;i:dativc Council, the Auditor-General shonld b0 P1cctPd b-- th • Opposition and the Go,·emrn; nt to<;.cther. The Govcrnrnent now have full cont·rol.
The PHE.11IFR: Ilr nGYf'r \\ ao, apr?ointcdt Parli~~mLlt; he j,, aJy:a.~:s ppo1ntcJ. b:: ExccutiYc.
Mr. ?.IOORE: There are ' 'in dcfinit0 :~ -~fep-ua::.·d:s which we pl'CYiou: I· hnd and ",·h1ch h.:.tyc bcPn h:.k~:n awa•:-not bv anr ectinn of the Government oo fur ,{ the Auditor-General is concerned. but owinr· to r'w position of affairs to-day. I do not think an:vbod,, could argue that thr po:,itiJn of the \.uditor-GcncraJ to-dav is 0.n indep<•ndcnt one. H<, is reall\ under the thU'nb of the Bxecuti\"G. Th~-- Audit-::>r-Gcr1'-ral ~lwuld be in an absolutely indcr,,ndont . po~ Hion, but he is not.
Audit Acts [14 SEPTE~IBER.] Amendment Edi. ii9!1
The PRE:IIIF.R: Do you think the appointment should be left to Parliament?
::Hr. ii[OOitE: No, but I sav that 'WO on this side should ha re the same say as the Government in appointing an of!-lcc'r who is rcbpnnsible to Parliament, and not to the Government. The Auditor-General should r0t be subject to the Government. whocn accounts he is criticising, but should be an'n' crublo to Parlian1ent ulonc. I think that. is the nea·.on why his report is sent to you. }lr. Speak0r~~
The PREMIER: IY ould not thr- majority appoint hirn just the san1e '? Sunpose ,-on wantcJ somebody and \VC \Yantcd so1neone cl~c. and y.·e "·ere cyen, who v,-ould select him then'
Mr. ~:IOORE: I ant not cviticising t·h0 appointment of Mr. Bcal. The independence of the position is \Yhat I want to streso. and that is the rc.:t::ion \VhY at. one tin1o th<~ Audit-or-General \Yas aPliointecl for life. Th:lt is tl1e reason VYh~~ certain dehnite sa£0~ guards were iiYen.
Tb · PREJ-IIER : I-I e is not Hl as import ant a po:::ition 2 -; a judge.
}Ir. :YIOORE: I think the Auclitor~Gencral is a far more important official than a jndg". On hiJJl depC'nd::. the qu('stion of \\·hcthcr the Go,·c1·n 1nent ure 8ponding 111011"~: in the \v~<PcHliarnent ha· .lnt.hori:-:~d it to be :_·pent.
The PHEl\liEH: Ha Ye YOU lo<;'~ all faith in the f;oyernmE'nt? ·
-:\fr. MOORE: I ha Ye lost all faith in tlw GoYe!:nuent because thov hn, not t'f :-nt mone·: in the •;,·a" uut.hodsccl. hv Parlia:Jwnt. Tlw control of funcL is not i;1 tlw contml of Parliament to-dav-I do not think tew Pn_ icr will E·"v thnt it is-it. is in tho eoncrol of the . Executive who "pnnc! knov ing that it is afterwards goinq to be ratiflc.rl. It- •·ill be admitted that in Ye. n gm.' b:: the Auditor-General y·ould ·hare refw·-f (1 to Hign C'Prtain acC'OUlit~ bceaust-- h,~ w. · a:L;werablc to Parliament alone.
The PRE~IIER: \Yhat would YOU say if Mr. Bcal refused to sign them?·
:\1r. ~IOORE: You could put him out of office.
The PR!::uiER: The safeguards an~ a!l tlJc·l'~'.
\fr. 1\TOORE: How can they he there? The PHE'\\IEP The:-· arc.
~Ir. J,lOORE: The Legislatiye Cot<nci1 hns g-onC'.
The PRE~liETI: .• :\nd you \', ~PJt. to re l'.l.:trrect it.
}fr. }JOORE: ',res. because it would saf·.'g-uarcl the Auditor-Gcncral~it is guard. I am not caYilling- nt the rrcnt of ~,rr. Boa!. hut I s~v that the nvsition with reg-ard to the Audiwr-Gterwral has been altered. and. if we a ppoint• :'vir. Heal._ Y;o should placG him in "n inclcpcnJcnt po3Jbon.
TlH· :~rrE_\J(ER: Order! Tb;: hon. mC>mbn. if he dcsir<'l that. should Lave taken an earlier opportunity to widen the scope of th<> Bill, and I cannot allow him to nrocred nn tho· :' lin0s. He will ha Ye '"1 opp~rtunity of lllOYlng -timendnlC'nt .. in Con1n1ittec.
1\lr_ :'vfOORE: I do not want to criticise the appointmont.
Th.- PHE:IHEH: You have put up an "Aunt Sal]:,
~tr. ::VIOOHE: ha YE' not pur up an '· c\unt- S-ally.'' I thir.k the hnn. gentleman must 1 ccoguiso that the position of AuditorGeneral is tob:tlly changed fro.Fl \Yhat it was.
The PRK\liEH: I rcf'ognisc that a n1an of ability and hon~sty will stand up for what ho thinks is right, no matter "hat happens to hi1n.
=•rr. :\cOORE: I hope the hon. gentleman is right.
The PnDIIER : ::\Ir. Deal is a man of exceptional integrity.
1\Ir. }100UE: I am not. goiy· to say that the 1nan ,~-ho has boen. appointed is not a noun of intcgritv; but the GoYPrnmont ha Ye
got into the habit of legislating for the bPnefit of ono rna11. The,- E'a y t·hat because ;-hey have a ll1dll of int0g1:it,, I10W it i'". going to be so at all timE·s. but that does not always follow. Because you happen to haYe r: goDd n1an at one pe·riod that is no proof t h., t tlre n<cxt man is going to be of the '~uno calibre. \Ve should }t~gislato for all ca;;:.,~s, nnd not for 01"0 defini+~~ or particulur L.ii''-'· Tlw whole posit.ion, to rn~~ 1nincL i.;; that it doeo.; not n-(uJtcr \·erv nn1ch vvhe-thcr thf· .\; nrrlL'ndnu=.-nts are nut de~ or EOt--
Thc SPEA 1\.:ER: Order; The hon. :!1:1e1n~ hl'r C'·,lll onh· deal 1ovith principles at this siagc. --
:',lr. ::\IOOH.E; The amendments in the Bill \\·iil clo with one o: t-he main principl' s of the Act, which prm·ides for tbc appointn1ent of a n1tP1 for life. and that he call onlv be rernoYC'd bv the· exercise of three definite· steps. Onl:- "one step is left. I i(· c<c n bo t:,ot rid of in diffcrc1Jt ,~·ays, and he i .... to be rctirr·~l at tht' r · ·r' of Bixt .~-fiyo ~·e·1.r.;;. It s.eerr:: to 1nc th~tt ~,n: l;avB got iLT,o th( position that it doe-, not 111attcr YC'f, L_urh whcthPr he is appointed for five ' .. car~ o · for Iiie, hP<'U.U'le ~the usefulnc;-;~ of tho ofi-ke ha· pa•,-." cl avnt~~ \Yith the safeguards \, hif'~l lHtYO l''2Cll rcrnOYCd.
I a:n not going to cayjj at tho Bill iteelf. I clo not sec~ anythin.rr yer\· dreadful in it; nor do I .~~·P an~·t.hing ycr~~ dreadful in the appointment. The only thing is that the Pruini"r ~ hould have made f;UCh a song abont the lat.~ Auditor-GcYleral not baying made any prntc.::t about gojng out. of offiC'f'. Oar opinion is different. \Yhcn I sc-o in the fl1pers a statement that a gentleman has l''_5io.·prf1 nnd he in1.n1ediatPl~· \YriL~s that. hcba:- \lone nothing of the t'-Ort. I dnnv rn,Y own cvnrlu-ions. and the conclusion I drrv,r in this
i3 thaf' the GoYCl'lll11''11t said to :\fr. "-You 1.":il1 f'it.hcr out and
",·:hat \YC' give ~.·ou or you \Yill /Yet out n.nd take nothing."
Tlw Pru::.nER: He made tlw en .ngement lim,r·lf. and apprrr0ntl:c· forgot all about it. (Opposition laught-er.)
::VIr. J.IOOHE: I recognise that the Auditor· General n1ay haye nl·.,,dc on :rrangornent. but, 1vh.~n a rnan is nlacef1 in the pof-it:ion of n1aking an arranrenH~nt or c0tting- out with· out. an- arraDt?'0111lllt 1 he has ver:\· little option.
The PHE::\IIER: He Juade tl:c arrangcrncnt to rctirP at seventy hitmdf.
1\ilr. YIOORE: There are v~rious wavs in which people can be got to n'nke arrU.ngemenL.
The PRE'.IIEH: The ar"ang-cmcnt \vas not made lately. It was made years ago.
Jlr. :lloore.]
600 Audit Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.
Mr. MOO RE: Then he apparent! v chd forgot all about it. (Laughter.) I do not know wheth~,,. the hon. gent]cmun'•, memorv TS good .. or vvhether his imagination is good, or whether he ha, an~·thing to shov. that. the arrangement \Yas n1ade.
Tho PRE1IIER: I can a'·'•,urc you that it. is aJl in order.
:\lr.- MOORE: Perhaps the Premier can defimt.ely remember that the agreement was made, but the way in which Mr. Robertson wc~1t out does not suggest that he was voluntanly retired. I think that 11is •uccossor " about. as. good ':' . m a~ uo< ":e could get; If 1s only rhe pos1twn m wh1ch :\1r. Boa! IS nlaced that I object to.
. Mr. J\!AXWELL (Toou.·onu): The Premier, m monng the second reading of the BilL ~'"' vc us some infor.mation practicallv ~'mp.h}~.S.!Ell~lg whi.l.t he said on tb~, rnotion fo.r Jt.s nnt.wtwn. I find that in 1915 the ht< Hon. T. J. Rvan introducc•d en \udit .'.et~ Ame~,dment Bill, and on p:· .~·e 2387 of " Hansa~~cl for t.h?.t year he is rcpo:_·ted as lHtvinrr said. an1on"·~t other things-- · --
"By thi,; Bill it is propo ,0,l that t-he tcrrn of the Auditor-General's appointment ·,hall be for a period of :;eve!! ye~1 rs."
il:~'" _D~ll nPver !l'Ot past th_at etar:e; dw 1_, 1 cm1c1, I think, 1s under a Inir:.apprehension. :-io far as I ran sec, the Bill never re-ached the Le~islati'. e Counri1. -
The SECRETAilY FOR AGRIClTLTf'RE AXD STOcK: It was passed by this Chan1her, \Vas it not'?
2'\Ir. l\L\X\VELL: ::\'o. It ne' er got to the Committee stage. In th0 " Index to S'!?icds-Legi·,latin' A>.,embly" I find the foltO\Vll1J entr;, :-
" Audit, Acts Amendment Bill (Initi~ at ion and 1°) 2329; (2°), 2387 [not furthr r procr'cded, u'ith]."
Section 28 of tlw Audit Act , 137.; tn 1906. l-rovidcs :-
,,The Auditor-General shall hold bis office during good behaviollr and shall ~-ot be renlOYPd thcrefrorn ur:less nn address praying for snch rPrnoval shnll he presented t.o the Gm ernor !re the Legislative Council nnd Lt-\;1~:.dativc Assmnbly respectively in thC' ---::nn~-, ~~0ssion of ~arlwment and at aw· ti,nr· when Parllarn0nt is not. sitting' it shnll be h_vdul for the Govcrno1· in C;onr:cil to mspond the A uditor-Grnrral from hi. office for inability or misbchavicur and when and so often as the same ·,hall happt'n a full statement of the cau.sn of such suspension shall be la id before l;oth Houses of Parlian1cnt \vjthin SPY0n days after the commencement of thn ne~t scss1o!l thereof and if an address shall at any t1me ~luring that session be presented to the Gm·ernor . by tho Legislative Council or Legislative As:wmbly praying for the rc·.torahon of such AuditorGeneral to his office sueh _\uditor~General shall b0 rc,tored accordi;wlv but if no such address shall be so~' j:1rucnted it shall _be lawful for the Go,·c·rr:or in Counc1l to con£irn1 sucl-, ~-:uspenf'ion and to declare the office of such .\uditorGeneral to he and the sanw shall thereupon become and be vacant as if such AudJtor-General ere naturally dead."
I, am. not questioning the statement of the I rcrmcr that an arrangement had been
[Jllr. Moore.
madr. but I am dea_Jing with the principle tm·olvcd, and not wtth the individuals concerned. Here we have an Act of Parliament distinctly providing a certain thino- and until that .\et, which proYidcs a. life~' tenure of office for the Auditor-General, is amended it must be interpreted in its legal sense with~ut nn:. refcrcnr.::; \Vhatever to anv speech de~ livered by the lute Hon. T. J. R"yan.
The PREMIER: And withont l'oference to a nv contract? You were talking about contr~·cts.
l\1r. MAXWELL: Yes; and I had good reaf>On to talk about contracts-and b.~.·oken contract'. too. The only dofinit(' information I can obtain is that contained in the Audit Act, which sot; out that the Auditor-General shail hold office for life. 1t \\as contemplated by the amending Bill, iatrcduccd in J 915-16 b-- the then Premier, that the late Auditor-General should be appointed for ·even :,·cilrs. No doubt there i' something in the statement of the Prcnuor about an arrangcn1ent having been made; thoro may have bocH an arrangen1ent-I do not kno\vI han, not discussed the matter with M:r. Hobertson as suggested by tho P£cmier. I accept the word of the Premier.
The PRE:.lllm: I do not wish to drag this thing on. Does the hon. member believe that he rnay be able to drag smnething out of HlC?
}h. MAXWELL: :'\o. I desire to show the position in which we find ourseln's. and I iutend to deal with a little inconsistencv on the part of hon. members opposite. "
The PnEmER : " Consistency is the refuge of the incompetent."
~1Ir. ~JAX\VELL: :'\o. "C'or_,,istency is a jew,J." EYidentlv, the quc~iion of the n~tiring age \Yas considered, and it ~.Ya.s thought inadvisable that a person should continue in office after attaining the ago of '·~ixty-fivo YCar::;. Yet we find th occupant of tb0 positwn of Agent~General and of the position of Lieutenant-Governor continued in offic<J beyond that age, and not one word ic; said. Thosp gentlemen seem to be in a dilferent posit-ion altogether. If it is wrong in the one instance it is wrong in the other.
::\Iy complaint is that this constitutes a waste of money on the part of the Govern· mcnt at a time "·hen the Premier has stros,,ed to the country and the Public Service Corn~ missioner has pointed out to public servants the necessih, for eYery person doing his bit to a~sist the Govcrnn1cnt on a stunt of
oconornv. \\"hen ·,vo anal· se the [11 a.m.] position we find that the dttitude
taken up by the Government is undoabte>d]v inconsistent. The late Auditor~ (;PilCral m{s appointed at a salary of £1,000 lV'r nnnum, :--:nd a fe·\' years ago \Vas voted an allowance of £250 per annum. According to thn statement of the Premier, he has retired, but one of the conditions under which he is to retire is that ]Je rec,:ivcs a sum of £1.750. Xo per~on will gaiw;ay the fact that the late Auditor-Gone;'al i< a com~ petcnt. capable officer, and, that being; the ~a se. the GoYornmont arc wastiwr the £1.750 which they baYC YOted him tO retire and at the same time arc increasing the salary of the position by £250 per annum. or a total Wa<te of £2,000. As. a business man I say that is not legitimate busine.''·· Can hon. members opposite defend such a waste, in face of the condition of affairs as they are
Audit Acts [ a SErTE::>mER.] Amendmenl Bill. 601
to-day ~md the statement of the Premier in regard to economy 9 I remember hon. members opposite, when sitting in opposition in 1914-15. i~suin<r a pamphlet calling the attention of the electors to the fact that the Governrncn t then on the Trc a surv benches always raised the salaries of the hl'gher paid man. That is Pxactly what the Government have done and aro doing to-day. I am not caying that £1,250 is not a decent salar;.· for the posit-ion, but I do sav that, therP is no warrant, considering the condition of the countn. for the retirf'ment of the late A{,clitor-General. I cannot underst-and the <Jttitudc of the GovcrnmPnt in d11i11~ whai th0y havp done. As I said at the outset of mv remarks. I am not dcalin!l with the individuaL but with the action of the Governn1ent in interfpring with a principle. :'\otwithstanding what the P-0crctn ry fat~ Agricnltnre n1a:v sa~·. I contr•nd that ihe action of thc- Government is not consistent. \Vh<'n that hon. gc·ntleman {1i~cov0rs any incon:"Jc.tency with re.;;;pect to nw public ntteranrPs or public dut., then he ha-; a remedy and can deal -..yith n1e.
1 The PRE~\tiER : 1:,.. ou an" \vrong and in
IJC'Ing va·ong you are consistont. ~-'
Mr. MAXWELL: I do not think I am '.nong. In fact. I am right.
Tfw PREMIER : You mostly are.
"\Ir. 7\fAXWELL: I take> ihai as o complim<'nt, and sa~- that the Premi0r is often ''Tong, fJS hon. nlCJnbcrs on thi:'- f'.idc of the HousP often prov" him to lw. I vvoulcl like the hon. gent.lema'' to tdl me in what resp~~ct I arn "-ron~~ ·: ~.\n1 T \Yronv in stating that the late occnnrnt of th0 offi~e recei,·ect a salar0' of £1,COD and 1n allo,\'<t!'Ce of £250 p0r annum? _\tn I 1Yro::.1g in nutkins; the ~tatenlPnt that J.Ir. Robert~on h~s n~c0ivci:l a retiring· allowance- of £1.750, and tl~at ~'\f1~. Bcal rrcpiv0s an increas0 of £250 on thf' salarv of the late Auditor-General 'c If I <l!J1 \Yror~g. I ask the Pr0rniPr to 1111t 1110 1'I.2ht, but n1_\ ~tatcn1cnts ar·.· in accord \7ith thP rern;:n·k~ of the P:ren1i1T anrl are in Hccord v ith the 'vording of the Bi1J.
The PnniiER : But of vv-hn t arc they npropo"?
ivlr. FR! (E,,rilpa): I em not poing to <parrel w1th the appon,tmcnt of Mr. Beal, and I hav~ no objection to th0 rctirin er a o·(~ L_::-ing fixed at. sixty-five :'-'Car~. but I d; cot;1~ Rrcl:r that the circume.tancC', of the retirPment ~.·1~1 appoint:n:ent Br·· extraordin·'ry. To l1H.·
lt 18 cxtraord1_nary th·1t a GoYcrnment- hav-ing ful1 1'('5ponqblht~v and control OY0r this great. ~ia+c eh?uld lwconw so p0th as to ,, ait unt-il rne AuchtoJ·-Gcneral '""' in the farthest nart cf Xo_rth c;:uecnsland hefon• is>ning a stat-~'"'cnt m Bnsban" that lw was going to retire. Tt \YOuld haye been more decent had t'1o Gov,crnment waited until Mr. Robert -on r"tup_Jed and then informed him ;_ s to their rlccJsJOn. or. bat-ter etill, ne-ked him to ,.,,turn to Brisbane befon- t.hcY made the ;::t··J01110nt. The Govcrnn1ent 8('tf'd vcrv unwisely in thls matt~r. and thc·v cPrtainl"~,drew thn adY<•rse crit-ici·:m '.vhich 1s now f'l11Tcnt in regard to their action.
After listening to the remarks of hon. members 1v-hen the Bill wae introduced and to the speeches made t-his morning. I can onlv cCJmc to the conclusion that , ther<' has ~K'Cn an ~xtraordinar~. ~et of circun1stanC'( 111 C'Onnf'cbon With an e-....t.raordinnry in('ident. I was rather amused vvhen the Premier, a''
a last hope, patched on to his other statements one to the effect. that :Ylr. Robertson had made an agreement to retire at the age of sixty-five years and had forgott-en about it. Th0 whole t-hing is so peculi<lr that I think the Premier must smile quietly to himself when endeayouring to get awa:; from the situation in that I11anner. rrhe rer:narks of t-he Premier .ts to the need for reorganising the Auditor-General's Department. depreciated the remarks he made as to the dlieiencY of Mr. Robcrtson. It would have been better lo len,ve t-he b"t remarks unsaid. :'\o one will question the wisdom of having the keenest wits and bright< "ot brains in the Audit Department,. 1\"e ,must h •VP men of <:-reat ability there, and those men should be paid salaries which will relieve them f ron1 an:v ft<1.r as to what may happen \V hen the,- become old. Thcv should heve a free reiil. and should have 'the confidence of the Parliament and of t-he people. I have nothinr: more to SR) except that I consider the rircun1stances surrounding the discharge or retirement, compule.ory or voluntar~, of bhe late Auditor-General arc deplorable.
:\Ir. ELPHINSTONE (0.,'/ey): Accepting 11, I do the Premier's staten·ent that. the ]de Auditor-General retired with his own full t:cqnlc'·Cf'ncc and that the surrounding circtunst·anccs 'Ycre agreeable to him, I must express the view that I am not very sorry to see a change in that position. ber'· 1.use, in 111)' opinion, the Auditor-General must of Hf'('(;::..3it .... - be a .n~an who is absolutely out.er:okcn ·and fearless in all hP sa.1 s ond ,does. In regard to tho late Auditor-General, as I stated during my remarks on the Financial Statement, there have been indicat-ions of lrrte that he ha" not been fearle>··' enough and outspoken enough in his criticisms of the finances of the State.
The PRE)fiER: That. was not due to any interference by the Goycrnmcnt.
1\fr. ELPHI:'\STONE : I am not saying that it "a.<. It mav be due to the fact that the late Auditor-Geileral, like so many other public servants, became imbued with fear and hesitatNl to do his duty fearing what mig-ht ultimat0lv rec,ult if he did so. It does not matter what the cause is. the result is there. \Ve have not had that fearless analysis of the finances of the Rtato during- the last fpw Vf'US to which I think this Parliament is 0r!titled. Therefore, I do not view with any great regret the retirement of the late Auditor-General in view of the fact that he seems to haYe been, as the PrenJier says, quite satisfied with the conditions under which he has been retired.
I do. however, cxpre~s some doubt as to whether the present appointee is a fit man for thi' position-not that I have any criticism v:hateYC'' to make of ).1r. Beal's inteeritv or ability; but for the past clev0n ~,:earS he has been associated with the hi;;h !inanco that the Government have be0n indnlp:iJCg in. He has been in all thr .. ,e wild-cat schemes, and all these extraordinarv methods of trying to balance the ledger, and their dealing,, with finance generally as a result uf which the Government have laid them--elves opf'n to criticisrn. Hov~~ a rnan 'vho has been nt the hdrn. so to sneak, of tho methods of fmancc of that nature can b0 expected to analvso thf' finrrnc0-. of the State critically, I do not flUitc understand. I say this without any d<'sir(> to cast any reflection whatever, but it sc"'ms to me that Mr. Bcal has been so long associated with the Government's
M'r. Elphinstone.]
60:3 ~4udit Acts [ASSE:VIBL Y.] Amendment Bill.
methods of finance that he will not sati~fy u~ generally in rrgard to the critical analysis vre \vant of State G.nanccs.
The l'RE:YIIER: He is not responsible for qnrstions of policy.
Mr. ELPHINSTO::\E: No, but a man who has been so long associated with the policy of the other fellow ultimately becomes sa tura tod with those ideas himself.
'l'ho PREMIER: That is unworthy.
Mr. ELPHI:'\S'l'ONE: It is not unworthy. vYhy is it that we want to shift the capital city from Melbourne to Canberra? BecausL Queensland's interests have been sub··Prvient to thP interests of Vict01·ia by reason of the environment. So it is wit-h the pi·osent Auditor-General, Mr. Deal. He has been so long associated with the extraordinary methods of finance in which the Government have rngag·ed during the last elm-on years that he is not a fit and proper person to analyse critically the financial affairs of this Stat•e to the satisfaction of the Cm·crnmont generally.
The PBE}!IER: How do you know that he h ;S Hot been at compl:~tc varianel~ with the G-ovBrnnJf'nt?
l\Tr. ELPHINSTO:\'E: If that i,, "'· he onght to hf1VP forced the Government to realise their responsibilities. If be has failed to do that in eleven } cars, he is not the outspoken fC'arlcss man v:e want to point the finger of danger to what i•,, happcniug in the State to-day. I can:1ot sec why this position should not have been advcrti-cd in the ordinary way so that every J1nLlic sLrYant could hnso been giYcn an opportunity to bc-conw an applic 1nt for the position.
_\gain ict me say that I have no douht whatever of l\1r. Real's intogritv or abilitv. I give place to no one in that· regard. bi1t we want a peculia rh t<:>mperamcnto llv fitted man for this job, and in mv opinion iYii-. Beal because of his environment during the past cl~von y_r,~rs, is not exactly the gc:n1lcrnan for th" pos1bon.
The PRE}JH,R: All the others arc in that position too.
Mr. ELPHI"-:ST02'JE: They !nvo not come so directly in touch with the finances of the State 'IS Mr. Beal. n,, ha,s l10Cll
associated -with the Yarions Prcn1ier: in all their c~::podltion_ and .1ll their sc11t-'U1CS. and must be wrapped up in them a 11. It is said to be a good thing to "set a thief to c1tch a thief," and in that regard ~.:r. B<•al mo:· he useful. I do not usn that epithet in its !rue application, and it mav lw that a vcntlenutn \vho has been assoc~:ttt:'d with the Govf;rnn1cnt in tht: prrst and kno,ving their wcakncss0s--
The PRE>IIER: I rise to a point of order. I am about full of thr;sc innuendoes about thicYC'S inthis House. Is tho hon. gedL'man 111 orrlc;· 111 rcfcny1g to Mr. Bcal as heing placed m th, pos1tJon of being a thief himse
Audit Acts [14 SEPTE~IBER.] .Anwndnte::t Bill. 603
to a great deal of criticism. Personally I -do not deplore the retirement of the late Auditor-Ge-neral for the rc.t :ons I ha Ye give!1. I havB also g·iven 1ny reason~. although the:; have been misundor.stood in certain qu.orkrs, y,·hy I think :\Ir. Boa! is not a fit man to occ•qr.· the position. I hope that circumstances \Yill f'vcntually proYe that n1~- criticism is not. correct.
The SECllETARY FOR Pt·BLIC LA~DS : You sa v you do not doubt hi~; illt{~grity, and no\~you spcm to do so.
:'>lr. ELPHINSTOKE: The hon. gentle,man did not understand me. I am not cloubt.ing Ylr. Bt.:al's integrit:; ; neither did I appl.' to him or to the Premier the epithet which t·he Premier says I did. So long as I am priYil·:·ged to occupy the position I do I will :.ay what I beliew to be right., and I :tar:od for ail I haYc said.
:'.Ir. FERRlCKS (South JJri.cbanr): There is onP point I \V..1nt to "'T8S". and that i~ th• capital which has been ·made of t-hr fat t that when the retiring Auditor-General "u; approached in Townsvillo he said thDt he did not know an;· thing- about hi, n.lmotn·eJ rot.irement. Hon. 1ne.rnbers surely mu .• t recognise that at tho timo :\ir. Hobert'i-Otl \'as a cryant of the ~~t1t , and would rightly think that any anno:1nc . .-~nwnt ~-radP concl"lniug· his iut~·nded rctin''lJent or ..1bout hi . ., po .-itiOn should corne frnn1 tlw hPtd oi the Go\~ernn1ent. A""..;u1ning that. }lr. Ilobert-13011 hnd prcviou-::;ly nr!.·anf{Pd 1vith the hcvd of the Goycrnment tho c·mditions on which ho \\-otdd retire, I a<_ hon. nl('Inbcrs. oppo::.itP whether they would t~1ink it a fuir thing thai- he- should go throughout the country t-tating tht• fat..tS as t-, hi~ l'f-·bieC'rncnt hE:'forc t(,,· hud of the GoYcrw ,cnt had made an <tnnm:nt..enu~nt. Sui:cl:. hon. ,1ncmbors Jnu;:;t fiCC the nnreasonableJH' ,s of their rer;_wrks conc"·ning that. part of the question.
Regarding the assoeiation which "'h. Bcal had ''"ith the Treasur", a ·uming thnt Mr. Bcal Inav not havP ag-reed with son1e cf the acts of l)o] icy of the GovPrnmr:~t. hon. lllE'llt
bcrs lnu:;,t. rC'rr e1nbcr thut wh:df'\ 2r he did a:1 ro m.atters of Govern1nrnt nolirv he did as an employee of the Gon'rnnlcnt He had to do r:, ~ he was directed, and quite rj?-'"htly fO,
oth2r,vise there \Vould be no re·;cr)Qnsibl constit.utional go\ crnrnent.
Follo ·'Tln.?; the matter a st~gf' further, -.,ye cot!:c to the sug·ccsbon that lhc,·e might bP somr doubt, to the ability of ::!Ir. B'cnl or \YlloL \·er '"'-·S appointfd. to L~lt hi,n1-E'~1f adrift from th0 ~i _fJ,-.iation of r:k Y('D
~'Cars' scrviC'c under thi::; conbnuinr Gover~tmcnt. How doe: that scpmre with the objcrt.jo~F whjrh hon. nlChlhCl'~ opnosit0 al1t (~e and atV,~11pt to Lark up .fJgain::;t the appoi11tmcnt of local GoYcrnors? The:': belieYf' in appointing as G-t.T";'Cfnors m.-:td:-~ 1'4 of the I-Ionse of C0!Lt1rons. vvho perh2ps haT':' ~C'rYCd a period of thirt\ v0ars in cflic" lFld"r ~o-· l;' GOY(l'n
mcnt; 1Jt~t. thc~Y think that. v.,hen snc11 n man rorr1c-, out to Au;;tr1li hP c•n cut hirni"c1f qnite adrift from thP pJ1i-. · of \ hieh he has been a cornponf'~1t pa ,··t and not 1110n ly a ~··ryant for thirt,T, YC.:l_r~. \Yb<~n Sir Ronalrl '!.lm1:·o F0rgw'on ca~nc to Aw-trnlia he hcd F:p?nt thirty yc<1rS in thr. Fiou·-0 of Corn,rnon' ancl had bc0n GoYernnH·nt " whip '' in mol'P than one Ministr\. \Vhcn he came to AustraJia hon. rnen1bor~ on t.ho othc1· f'ide anr1 thos0 who agree v·ith them said thut Sir Ronalrl Munro Ferguson wa-< ahll' to hold .him.se1f ']uite apart from political feeling in
this countrv. I believe he could. but it· would be conscio{tsly, because he had been for such a long period "' rrember of a Go,-crnment and a member of a political party. \Yhen hon. members opposite say that these mon coming from the other side have no politic> at• all, that is distinctly at variance with their arguments now.
I think that the House should have been satisfied v:ith the remarks of the Premier "t the initiatory stage of tlw Bi !!. He said t-hat he regretted the loss of Mr. Bcal from the Troasurv, but I suppose that the Opposition, following their usual misdirected cour·~c of opposing ever:Tthing which co1nos from this side, decided to oppose this tneasure. In our da:, s in opnosition, a j
the hon. member for \Yvnnurn will remember, we did net- oppose cvc,:ythinv. \Y c exorcised our judgment. and supported mPa.surcs 111oved fronl this side of the Charnbcr if in our oninion thev "Ncrc of the righ~ ralibre and "'oulcl make for the advancement of the P+ to. I and ethcrs had the experience of walking frorn the ()p·•osition .,ldc and voting for a Governn1ent· measul'P, although ten: \\-ere then ,~itting in opposition. and I say it i~ a Ini~directed poli('y for nu Oppositjon to oppo"c everything ''"hich is inh·oduccd by a G ovcrnruent
Ho~. W. H. 13AR"!\;ES (1!"!1' '"'''': I had 1~ot intended to saY anYthing- on the second reading of the Bil( but" the d"bat0 has taken snch a course that probably I should be fals' to mv conYictions if I I'C'L:incd n1v S(•at. f)nit.P~ apart from any indiYidual in ~onne:~tion "·ith the appointrncnt of AuditorUcneral. I realise that publir SPrvants so far ~' I knmY them-and I ha,·c h'ul a good deal to r 1o with thcrn in n1v dm0-ar1, n1Cll -..vho would faithfully carrY OUt the WOrk giYcn to the1n to do: but I rose more pal'ticularly to ~a:," this: Apparently th0re is a n1istaken idea i:n the Hon~e this rnorning as to the position of an L~nder f:Jccretary in control of a clPpartnlcnt and representing· thP Govc•r:n~ nwnt fo1 a pPriod. As cx-Tr.: t::;urer and or:CUlliPr of other 1Iinisterla l l;V~itions at om period, I clcirc to -''Y that I repeatedly found tht· idPas of the 'Cncler S<:>C'rctJ_ry and the ~iinistcr in n1~-;,e1f con1plett~l, at var'ianct•. I think one "honld he fair enough io ~.aY that. \Yhibt an Under Secrcta,·y might ach-ist'-and probably very frccjnent1y he has tn advi~c-hc does not n1akc the policy of tbr G-on_'n1rrwnt.
I should be failing in my duty if I did r!')t say one other thing. ~\s Trcasurr-r I \VU"
do-eh- associated with :Hr. Boa!. He acted :'c: T~~tclPr Serretarv \Vhen 1\-Ir. FoYdes \YUS
;,],,;eut in the old 'counir: .. nd I regarded :.\i.r. Heal 11s being a. n1nn \"";'ho \Yonld faith~ fully carr~ out any duty givrn to biru.
HO'iOcR.\BLE }fE}WEHS : H0ar. hear :
Ho~. \Y. H. BAR:\ES: 1 think it, rs a tni:-:;takc even b,, inference to belittle a rnan appointed to a~ po:~ition. Smne rnen have ll~~ptl p~sociated -..v!th oih._,r }linistcri', and I t .l.e~• it th.qt any man 'Yho is >\orth his salt whf'11 he take~ ~ job ls going to do it £1ith~ full,-; and \vit.hout fear and di~tinction ot IH)rsons or partit. ,:':,
The PRE:'IJIER: =~rr. Sccrrtar during your Tr,":lsun~r.
Fmdes """-' L:ncler period of office as
Ho~. \Y. H. BAR':'\ES: Yes.
The PRE:\llEll: \Ye appointed him to n new po:-'ition. \Ye had no fear that he would not
Tio:L 11r. II. Barnes.]
604 Audit Acts Amendment Bill. [ASSEJ\iBLY.] Prickly-pear Land, Etc., Bill.
carry out his work merely because he had been associated with you.
HoN. W. H. BARNES: He was appointed to a new position. I believe there is a danger in this House of weakening men appointed to positions, and it is not in the interests of the country that that should be done.
A good deal of discus-ion has arisen from what transpired in the press. \Ve know that certain statenwnts were made. Probably tllev -,-.;,-ere vcrv nnwjse t'trrtelTlPnts: but thcv we;·c made, aJ{d they have created ·an impres· ,ion outside that somehow or other--
::\Ir. FERRICKS: If M1·. Robertson had preYiou.::Jly agreed to retire, vyould you expect him to admit it when asked in Townsville?
HoN. \V. H. BARNES: I am not going to enter into that question any further.
The Pm:}IJER : I will give you and the Leader of the Opposition permission to look at the papers.
HoC\~. \V. H. BARNES: The Premier has dcnied cl'!'tain etatements, and. according to }Jar]iamcntar~7 procedure, his denial must be f\cccptcd, and I accept it freely. I do not think it i' necessary that I should look at the papers. The Premier has made a stat~rnent, and there is a duty cast on hon. rncm' ers to aCCL]lt that statem< nt. I do so. 1 h; Vt' no hesitation 'vha.teYer in f,nying that I believe :Hr. Bcal will discharge his duty faithfully, and will not fail to spc'lk out if he finds it necessary to speak out. 1 agree absolutely with hon. mcrnbers ,,-ho have o'poken this morning who stated that the Auditor-Genera] should feel that he has the '·Upport of every 1nen1ber of this House as ,, ell as of the country, and that he should pf~ak out on any nuttter, \Vhatc'Ycr the con~cquencc, '"-'hen anything is going ·wrong. :'\o man 'an bettey do that than one who has been closclv ns,ociated with the finances of the State. :~'ne! that is the case "'ith =·~r. Heal. If there is one department-::\1inisters will know that this is correct-which to some ~xtcnt is unpopular, it is the Treasury Department. for the <implc re>son that the Trea''Ul'l'l' often has to put on the hrak0. and po,,;ibly turn down requests made b:, members of Parliament and others. His dntv is to safeguard the Tr<'asury. I believe ~\1r. Bcal, having had that experieEce. will not fail to speak out, and will earn out l1is job to the credit of himself and for the good of his c-;untry.
Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.
CO}DIITTEE.
(Jfr. Pollock, Grcg01·y, in the ch'lir.) [11.30 a.m.]
\'lause 1-" Short title "-agreed to.
Clause 2-" Salary of Auditor-Genc1·al "
:Vir. KING (Logan): I understand that the hon. member for Cunningham intended tn move an amendment on this clause, but he is not in the Chamber.
The PREMIER: I think that is all right. There was nothing in it. The hon. member showed it to me.
Mr. KING: I just rose to mention that it was the intention of the hon. member for Cunningham to move an amendment.
Cl a use agreed to.
[Hort. W. H. Barnes.
Cl a uses 3 and 4 agreed to. The House resumed. The CHAIRMAC\1 reported the Bill without
amendment. The third reading was made an Order of.
the Day for Tuesday next.
PRICKLY-PEAR LAND ACT AME:'\DMENT BILL.
SECOXD READJNG.
The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympicl: The third. paragraph of subclause (1) of dause 2 of this Bill is consequent on the appomtment of the Chairman of the Prickly-pc~r Commission, Mr. Payne, to the Land. Court, and the p~o-11o,ed continuance of h1s sernces as Chan· ma.n of the Commission. As I said before, that arrangement is the desire of Mr. Payne, as well as the wish of the Government. It i~ also an illustration of Mr. Paync's high sense of public duty and his persoYJal pride in the work of prickly-pear dcc ~1:uctioa wi(h· which he has been so long and ably assoCIated. Provision is also made for the appointment of a Deputy Chairma". and a further amendment provides that th., Go· Ycrnor in Council if ho decrns it necessary and justified, lnay'increasc the salaric-~ of the, Deputy Chairman and the other members of the Commission.
Although there ha,s ?een no cvidcn.cL' of anv loss or damage havmg been sustamed by owners of stock through the poisoning operations of the Commission, it has nevertheless been deemed advisable to insert a dause in this Bill giving the Commission protecti'!n arrainst anv claim that may be lodged m that connection. A like provision, giving protection to local a,uthoritiec carrying outsimilar work, is contained in the Local Authorities Act.
lt is aloo, proposed, with rl'spoct to pricklylJCar land, to rnakc provision _calling 'lf?OD
pa~toral lessees to sho'v cause 1n conncct1on with the forfeiture of their lP~Sh fo:· Eon· compliance with the conditions. l'rO\·i,,ion is made for the right of app<>'ll t > the Com· n1i~sion. Our la.nd laws proYide thD L nn TH'r·son shall hold two or more grazim.T ~elections having an aggregate area c xc,ccding 60.000 acres, and it is also J?WYidcd that any person having an Interest Ill f!. r:ft2tor~I holdirw to that extent. as asccrtam< d m acreag~ shall be disqualified from applving for or 'holding a grazing· selection. The tenure of a prickly-pEar lease is rngarded in the s,;me rnanncr as a pastoral tenure. therefore. th" holding of a prickly-pear lease will disqualify the holder from J:oldinp: am other land. _\s the land that 1s to be granted undm' prickly-pear lease tenure is heavily pear infested and often of a vcr:' lo'. value, it is deemed advisable to remove the,-e restriction-
Another provision is that where the capital value of a perpetual lease prickly-pear selection 1s less than 5s. per a,cre the only rent shall be a peppercorn. This is rncrcly ccurving <JUt the determination of th<! Prirkly-pear Land Commicsion in reg-ard to subsection (4) of ecction llOA of the Land Ad. The procedure is bein;; followed adn1in]:;;trative1y at present. and is sanctioned' by the Secretary for Public Land<.
Sections 23 and 27 of the Land Act arc bcin.g repealed and amalgawated in :more definite form in clause 2 and subclause (6}
Prickly-pear Land Act [14 SEPTE}!BER.] Amendment Bill. 005
•of this Bill. This enables compensation to be paid for pear clearing in cases of resumption of pastoral holdings and grazing selections. Compensation will not be payable in the use of <'xniration of a lease which is subject to prickly-pear clearing conditions. The arnount of ron1pensation in each case ,,-ill be determinable by the Prickly-pear Lanc1 Cornmission.
In t~e pa,,t lessees haYe clairnPd t.har on ~n·a> upon which considerable expenditure ha-; lwr•n entailed for pear d0struction, and "hr•r.• those lands ha Ye later been selected for r0stu:nption, they havP rccclYecl no cornpemrtion for pricklv-pear clearing, .•nd han• boon penalisrd through haYing the d''Ur0d area resumed, thcrr:~h> being- dPban·er! from expending that money on lands which they would luwe rdained. H has been claimed that tho monev could be more advantag"oLJSly C':pended in pr1t 'dy-pear clearing on other portions of thnir area. The Roval Commission dealing with the matter" took considernblP '- vident >:? on that point, en·d such a stro;1g crt.se was tnade out that thev recornnlC'ncl{ d such corr1pensation for lT~llrnpt.ion of ]War clcarnd land. This comp·"nsation '\YUS sub·0quently giYen dfrct to in sections 23 anJ 27 of the Prickly-pear Land Act of 1923.
Anothu:· cluuse deals 'Yith O\;ncrs o£ prickl~~-rH"ar areas Y\'ho have entailed con~.idcrablc PXpcnditurr" in erad~c-tting prickly]L r on a prickly-pear l••a c;c , ·r pastoral holdin.sr. In cases dcserYing such action. and ~,hero it is deemed adYisable to con,Tert -~uch selections to prickh pear rlf':-tring sdcdions the Mini>tcr will have discretion to . aUo'Y such corn-c-r:"·ion.
.\nother provision amends section 24 and adds to section 25 of the Pricklv-pcu Lfl.nd \et. This proposed new tenure 0£ perpetual
lea::( priekly-ppar selections is no1. subject to du• condit.jon of fencing as 0cipulated in flccr-jons 24 and 25 nf the Prirkh--pear Land
where it is nrovid,·-l that the shall be exten'dcd onlv to leSfeeo'
0f ·-r1· .zlng Sf!lections aud peJ ~)etual lease .. cTpctiolls. ,,·ho lHlYC to cornplt•to t.hcir fenc~ insr anc1 in1proy,_n1ents bt>forP being erdit}Pd 1l of their selectiun~. The propo~ed
\YiJl permit the extension of those benefit, to the holders of li~cnsrs to occnp . It is not con,idc,·cd advisublc to eo npcl those Fho h1.ve onlv licen<C• t.o oc_lq,~~- to go to the exp.,n':::r ·of f'On1plctin~?,· irn(H'OYements and fencing to c·ntitle theut to conversion to a tcnurg not subject to sucl1 Londitions, and the a.nh?ndn1e~lts nrovide ., tclmre that will not be suhj.c-ct to the conditions o! fc~wi~Jg and i1r1proyem nt.:; provided undt•r the old AC't. 1 think that proYision a vvise one" and it wa~ eprta inh· rocon1n1cndod Lv the mc1nbf'rs· of the Coillmission. u
Po•xcr i~ also g-iven to the Commission tq clc tr pear on forfeited selections. and to cleduct from thP pr-oceeds derived from the imprm-ements. the value of the work carried out 1r: the Con1n1is.~ion. ThiR n1cans that the lrs:,ee will not be ahle to default in regard to pl'irkly-pcar clParing conditions end allow his holding to be forfeited and tben receive the whole of 1 he proceeds from the improvements on tho land on which he bas failed to <~ITV out the conditions imposed b:v the Pricl~l:v-pear Land Act. Inasmuch a.s much of the land in the prickl7-.:_ •C'ar area is of an inferior nature, another
clau:-c provides that on a certificate being given by the c·ommission the Minister may permit of areas being held in cxcc·ss of those permissible under the land laws of the ~tatc: but in all cases the Con1n1ission must be fullv satisfied and certifv to the Minister that. allv areas held in eXC'c~s do not con~t itute more than a reasonable living area.
Another proposed amendment is to give the :'viinister or the Governor in Council po1·~ er to debar undesirable tenants fron1 atquiring new portions of lend within a prickl;.-pear area. That refct"s to those who han• been certified as defaulters in regard to t\vo or more holdings. After a man In' !v~en given a conccs~,ion and, b,v dclibe~·ate tWf(lect, has Lil0d to tarry out the pro,-'sions of the Prickly-pear Land Ac·t. it is not coni<idcred advisable that he fhoulc! be oditled to a.cquire other lands in that arce". At the f3ame time, there is no bar on hirn frorn ncquiring other lands .. nor arc ther{ any rc"trictions imposed upon hirn in regard to acquiring land through•>ut the State other than those that at preec:t<t exist. Before any tenant is dcbancd under these provisions all the facts \\ill be carefully considered bv the Gow•rnor in CounciL At the ·present ·time when land is op··nccl for selection under the tPnurcs menti<mccl in 0lause 2, mbclausc (12), one of the conditiom imposed is that the "hole area shall b0 cleared of pear. L~nder thi·· new pro\·ision those portions that are heavil. infeo,ted will he c-xempt from elearing conditions. That n1eans that area~ that arc so he1vilv infested '''ith pear as to ht· 'econ01nieall~T beyond C"lcaring shall bo ex.en1pt fron1 prickly-pe_u· conditions. while the clearing conditions will apply to the balance of the land .
Those are th(' principal amendments th~t "'re contained in this Bill. The" o.rc the considered judgment of the Pi·ickly-pear Land Commission and the result of their long cxperieneC' in thr:ir in1portant vvork in Yarious part.~ o( the State. I an1 ;:;nre that the p1·oposed arra.ngc1nent in regard to the rontinuance of 2\ir. Pavnc':o; scrvic,,-:; a.-Chuinnan of the Con1n1isslon \Yill n-l('(.t \vit·h the a pproYal of the 1-IousP. and, ha ying reg;nr l to the fact that these snggc3ted t:.n1endrr1Lnts are considerf'd bv J\fr. Pa,-nc :::.nd other men1bcrs of the C1on1missiou u as lwin[!; nececsary. I presume that the:' also ' ill bo fayourablv consiclcrccl bv hon. memof this Chamber ... I ha Ye mucl) ph ~snre in rnoving-
" That the Bill be nmv rc"td a ~ccond tin1c.''
GO\'EHlDIE:<;T .:11E1IBERS : Hear, hear !
:'Ill-. MORGAX (Jiurilla): I ha Ye Ji,tcned ,-,,ry attcntiyeJy to the speech of the .:IIinis· t<:>r in connection with this most important Bill. In my opinion tho Bilt is notable. not so much for what it contains, as for what is omitted. \Ye have had two years' experience of the work of the Prickl:;.-pear Land Comrnission, and in n1y opinion man~other most important amendments could have been made in the Act- and have been bcneftria l to tho--c <~ngag;ed in the destruction of prickly-pear. It is the duty of the Government and also of the Prickly-pear Land Commission to do all that ut.n be clone r-o assist the·" people who have taken np pricldy-pc'l.r lands and invested all their nv1nc·y in that ciirectiDn before thcv kne1.v what it really n;e.1nt to clear the ;;ear. I kum,- hw1dr"ti' of pEople ,,-ho came from the Southern States and put all their monc0·
Mr. Morran.]
G06 [ASSE:\1BL Y.] Amendment Bill.
in'-o ll'ar lru~cls At 1h0 t-1H1C 1hcv \Yere not a·\ <~re that lH a1· c~)uld not b2' dt.stroyed a'; cn..:;ily <t"- the~· U<ought. During the 1? . .1::--t
t\Yenty 2-l~tlf-5 thf'::>l' p,'cplt> ha\'C' fJghtiDD" the pe:n· lY':--t. n11cl 1!1P\· ~~ v:• ed a%1..,;_ anre fn1rr1 Yarions GoYe-rnn1cnt-s. I admit that th• appointrnt :"t c the Pr1ckl;·-pear I .~d!ll romnnssion \Yas a very good thing. Hun. i1.Lcn1bcr" on t:,is side vd1o represent n n ,-c... in ·whirh thorc is pear infr•'3trrtlon have ariy{' '-t-·,rl such a dep for n1an·- year:::. Th8 (k \'('~'il 1 JJPnt h::vn~ a "sistcd the :.;ettlers to a YP, y great Pxtent tl11·ou~·h the Prickly-pear Land Cmmni"ion. but I consider that they sh Juld ::o still furtL'r in the direction ot
a:~sist UlCP. \Ye fi1.td frotn the report of the Con1mi,sion that the t'Xj)C'nJitnre h:. th'.:' GoYCl'Dlncnt~and it j-; lookeJ up-on <1"' a lOn1n1uniiy grantiL:_s been £24.300 pc:"!' annun1 · but what indi .. -idual settlers haYC' snrnt in connrr·tiou with the n1atter a~1pears frorn the report-
" The lrRs,:r-,,' cfforh arc esti:~nate-d as beinv (~qui,-alent to the Lxpc~ndit.ure of £35(1.000 per annun:."
The~e indiYidua~s arc ,,pending £350.C'no per nnnLm in fighting this pe;-:;t, \\-hilc thc amount <'Xp.-:Ided b: th~ C-om1ni~sion. \vhich is tcrn1·U a. corr1~i1nni1 ~T grant, i:;; only £24.300. Doe~ the :Jiinistcr consider that a fair llroporticn '? He 1nu~t achnit that. the COLlmunity i::; allowed to escape rf'-:IY1nc:ibJity in a nulnnet which ls not creditab~-- to the GoYernn1c·nt. In n1y 011inion the con11Tiunity should be lll'C'· pared to pa.y at least £1 for £1 in tho dest-ruction of this pest. The city of Brisbane is just as much interested in it as the people on tlw pear lands of the State. \Yhy should the Governm< nt not assi ,t those people to a grt'at.er extent than is bPing done at the present? The ro1nn1unity grant ir~ pra,~._·tically a bngatellc, bu a use the Con1miss1on state in their report that. heel they not brought about a reduction in the purchasing Yalue of the iand, the pco},1e would have gone off the lane!. The Prickly-pear Land Commission have admitted in their report that, although the amount of the conce"·sions an1ountcd to £24.300, ne.-ertheles>, had thcv not allowed those concc,"sions, the Gove1:nn1ent. ·would never have collect •cl £24,300 or anything lih that sum; so that I claim that the conh·ibution of the Government is not comlnensurate in any degree wit.h the amount of money spent by inclivicluak and the Government are J'ot doing their part in placing the respomibilities on the shoulders of the community to a greater extent than m the past.
I have no objection whatever to the clause which provides for the appointment of :\1r. Payne to the Land Court and which will enable him to continue to act as Cha.irman of the Commission. I recognise that he is ~n exceptionally good man, and we could not have had a better appointment. and it would be unwise at this juncture to take him from thi~ work. I certainly agree with the Bill m that respect.
There is another part of the Bill which. hov:ever. seems to me to be contrary to the pohcy of the Government. The Act originally provided that the chairman was to be paid £900 a year ancl each of the other members £800 a vear; that is to sav. both maximum and minimum were fixed. 'To-day an ~mendment is being introduced fixing a m1mmum hut not a maximum. Under this ~ropos._d the Government can pay what they hke, and that seems to he a reversal of prin-
[Jfr. lliorgan.
ciple from the Government's point of view. Pcrsonallv I have no objection to it. hecause I recognise that, if men are excep\iona.llv suited for particular work bcc1use of lhC'ir a-bility or otherwise, they are entitled to greater emolum'ents. I have no objection to their receiving a fair aL:.lOunt of pay for the work they 11erform.
The provision in the Bill which I look upon as perhaps the most objectionable is one in regard to which the Minister did not give a great deal of explanation. It is laid clown that. if tenants fail to perform the pear clearing conditions imposed upon them, the Comrnrs'lion shall have power to forfeit theil' fwlcling,. That is all right. hut, should the bnd be forfeited bv the Commission. tlw latter have the right to use the improvements ,\'hich have been dfccted on it for the purpose of clearing pear. If thot " not repncliation of the very worst kind, I would like to know what is.
The SECRETARY FOR PcBLTC LA:>:D" \Yhat arc you referring to?
:\Ir. ~IORGAN: I am referring to clan e 2 ·ubclausc (11). I do not think there is a similar power in any Act of Parliament in force in Queensland. \Ve have had niany drastif' Artt:. and rnanv ~oC>ialistic n1easures havc b0c:1 passed hy this Chamber since the Labour GoYernment have been 111 J.Jwcr, as the- :\linister knows, but this is the most <lrac.tic power "hi eh has ever been conferred on anv boclv of men conductiug any depa.rtmont of the. State. It may be saidno douLt it will-that the present Commis>ion are men who will view m·erything from a rational point of view and will not be like]; to do anything of a very drastic nature, but on the contrary are out to assist the legitimate settler on the land. In my opinion, that is so, but the point is that the 11rcsent Commi,,sion are not likely to continue for all time. Cha.nges take place; pro\·idence intervenes; and in the next bvo or three vcars we m'av have a Commission consisti.ng of men altog-ether different from tho>e who compose it at present.
The SECRFcTARY FOR PcBLIC LAXDS : Vi'hat ie wrong with the clause as it is?
~1r. J\10RGA!\: I am trying to explain to the :\Iinister.
Hundreds of people came to Queensland ft·om the Southern Stat{ .:.·, -with but ..-cry liitlc knowledg'' of the coet of priddy-pear destruction. They erected certain improvements on their new areas in the State. Their first concern ,_,,Tas to proYldo dc.;cnt home~ for their wives and families. so that they c mid hnve comparat-ively decent surroundings. The} die! not compel their families to live in bark huto. Most of them had rnonev which thcv had accumulated or had obtained for the' sale of their propcrtic-. in the South, and thPv applied that monPy to erecting decent homes and. snbst.antial improvc-nents. Althongh they tackled the pear and cleared the dense infc3tation. they find that then is still pear on the countrv. Yc nr by vear they have to go over t.hat same land. Thcv have felt the dire effects of droughts ·and their re,ulting finn ncial shnrtF g", and through the financial difficulties thev have been unable to employ labour to fulfil the settlement conditions at-tached t :J their areas. The result now is that the land has become very heavily infested. They set up valuable improvements, and as sensible business men they are anxious to protect
p; ickly-p ar Lanr1 Act [ 14 SEPTE~IBER.] Amendment B'ill. 607
those i1nprovement~'l,. ln10\Y1ng that. if the tand be-eo rues den sol 'l infested. the in1proveuwntf Inu,,t. eventual]\' become valuelc,~. ?\o1v it is proposed by r'his Bill to gr :c' power to 1hc Con1mis~lon to forfeit a 6elcction if r 1H selector fails to carrv oat all the conditions, ~:nd power is t.a bC given to the Comrui8sion to utilise the in1provcrncnts for the pnrposr~ of clearing the land for tho benefit of the in.c:o;11h1g tenant.
The SEc lcLTAitY 'JP. PuBLIC LA;;ns: Alreadv tlH~ ConHuis~ion ha_" that pcJ·•,·cr. ~
:VIr. ~\lORG \:'\: The Co1<1mission has not the po...-n'r to n~c the in:1proven1cnts. It a blD' k is f·:rfci1- ·d, it io opened for reselection. «:tnJ, if tht• inro1ning tenant is 11ot pn par-:d to ac(·cpi the i:mprov0n1cnts at an o:~::;csscd valuP lH~ can appeal to the La.ud Ccnn·t for .a clcci:-.ion as to their Yalne 1\o\Y the GoYcrnin0nt vruposu to t~- kc a \VRY tho right of appeal to the Land Court, leaYi,,g t ho deci~io11 entire] in the ha.nd~ of tho Co:Tnllif .ior., which ~~Till t1Jcll be in the posi~ lion of the plaintiff claimir:. that the scle< tor has neglected 1 o dc-ar his pe ". and will also act- as th~ judge to try the matter, and 011
top of that there i.;;. HO right of appeal to a11v pt:r~•on. It rcrnind8 OlH' of Gilbert and Sullivan'~ opera, ·· J\likado," whore one incli~ ,-idual acted in all office c 1·rn to that of th~- Lord Hi:>:h Excutioncr. Here the l'omwi~sion \\'i11 ha \'C the right t·O a~cuse a person of ntgle,;tinl( to dear his pear, the right to decide the question. and. after deciding again~t h!rn it, ean take pos1f'~ -ion of h~"' irnprovf'nlC'lltS nnd ut.ilis(' thern fol' dea.ring the land and opc~1ing jt up for selection for ;;;un1cone cbc. If the land is so den<•lv infested with pear that the present tenanct i.< unable to clear it. then no one elo<e is likely to take it up. TLP 1\finist.?r and the Comrnis,ion should ln10\Y that. Snl'Ph thev intend to prot0et unfortunate indi\~iduafs who camP her" from ether States! I know that malJV of them would return [oQ the Southern States if the>'.' could et'll uut. Thev are pinning their faith to the cochineal inse' t. and, if that insect fails, Cod help a lot of tho,,e settlers, The concessions giYen by the Co.nrTilS·"Ion arc only t{:mporan.--sufficicnt only to keep a man on his holding for the time lwing. hoping "nd trustinc- that th0 im,,d introduced b'" l\Ir. Temple' Clerk will perform its tac;k. If the cochineal insect
does what is claimed for it t.hen [12 noon] it will be o; groat benefit tD this
State, and, if an:v n1emorial shruld be erected to a man who will then have done more good for hi' countn- than any other man, it should be to the rr;emorv of Mr. Temple Clerk. It. has vet to bB proved that. the .insect will exterminate pear, althoL~gh rt 1s domg. except10nally good work; but tune alone w1ll prove whether it will solve tho problem. If clause 2 of subclause ill) is allowed to remain in t.he Bill the Cn!nmission \\ill have the power of' for~ feiting a selodiDn together with all improvements erected thereon for a breach of the condition" of lease.
The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LA~DS : The-e have the right to forfeit now. "
:\Ir. MORGAN: They have the right to forfeit the selection, but as the Minister knows they have no right to interfere with the improve'nPnts. 'The tenant has now the protection of the Land Court, which assesec's the 1·alue of the improvements to the incoming tena-nt, who has to pay the amount assessed. The Bill takes from the selector this pro-
tection. The Government are now altering and repudiating the existing tenures by giving the Commission power to confiscate the improvements on forfeited seleclions. That is not in accordance with British fair play and justice. No Government should be guilty of introducing a confiscatory clause of that sort. It means that the property of a sdector will be taken away from' him throug.h no fault of his own, as the MinistPr, if hP hits any knowledge of prickly-pear hnds, should well know. ]\fen have taken up thousand .. of acres of prickh -pear infested lands without any knowledge of ''hat they a re undertaking or knowledge of the cost of clearing it, and because of their ignorance the Government now propose to penalise them. This clau· e would be all right but for its rctrospcctivity. The Minister would be perfectly justified in applying such a nroYision to the future, as iho incoming ;ctllcrs would be aware when plctcing- impro•:emcnts on t,hr land that, if the conditions of the lease vvcro not complied with, they would be fnrfeited "ith the selection; but the repudiation of the existing conditions is not justiLe.
The SECRETARY FOR Pt:ELH' LA~ns : There is no repudiation at all. Shoulrl not a man do the job for whic,h he got concessions?
:\Ir. MORG.\~: That interjections shows t-110 icrnorance of the Minister. A man ignornnt of what pear-infested country is and the cost Df dParing it, mig,ht select it and spend every penny in his tfforts to clear it, borrow money for the purpose, and be eventually b0aten through no fault of his own. The Minister now asks: " Should not that man forfeit the conditions under \Yhlch he originallv s0loctcd ?" vVhcn the original Act was before this House the lease "as for <L fifteen· ,-ear period only, five years being allowed for the ,,elector to clear the land, and the remaining· ten to pay for it. The Governnwnt of the dav and the then Secretary for Public Lands, ivir. Tolmie, recognising that those conditions were harsh, increased the term of the lease to twenb-five year>·, and la.tcr on the present Government increased the term to forty years. Those facts show recognition of m>' statement that the men did not, know what they were doing when thcv selected the land. Now the Government come along and propose to forfeit that man's improvements, the only acset he has left for his wife, family, and himself after spending a lifetime in attempting to comply with the conditions of t.he lease. The Government propose, when thev forfeit the land, to clear it with the value of the imprDvements, thus allowing the incoming s<'lector to reap the benefit of those improvements.
In the future men going on to a pricklyJl(•ar sc]Pction; knowing of this clause in the Dill, will not build a home, ring-bark, pro· Yide \Yater, 01~ any other improvcmr:nts until they first make sure they are able to clear the land. The ?VIinister must think that everv tnan going on to a prickly~p0ar f'elcction {s fit only for a lunatic asylum, that he has no ability, and will g·o on doing- what the Governrnent or the Commission dictate. _\ man will not make improvements when he knows the Commission can confiscate the result of his work. That means that there will be l0ss work done and Je,-s progress. Is this only another means of driving people off the land and into the cities? The hon. member for :Waranoa and other hon. members who have a number of prickly-pear selr-dors
M1·. 1J,forgan.J
608 Pn,;k/y-pear· Land Act [ASSKifBL Y.]
in their electorates should go into the Bill thoroughlv and endeavour to persuade the Government to eliminate subclause (111. Such a provision should not be introduced into any Bill. It is not fair or just. and is a disgrace to a Government. It repudiates the contract entered into with men who went on to prickly-pear selections, and I hope that the Government will delete the subclause and not let it be a blot on a Bill which in other respects is likelv to prove beneficial to those struggling against pricklypear. "\Ve haYc 51.000,000 acres of land in Queensland infested ·., ith prickly-pear and practically lost to the State. If that can eve1tually bo cleared and reclaimed. it >Yill assist all sections of the community: therefore all sections should contribute towards !he clearing of that land. Those )Wople who arc already clearing the land a1·c assisting tho (jovornnJCnt in every ,, a;., but they cannot do impossibilities. Even the report of the Commi -sion provPs that the people· ckuing po:1r have spent £350.000 per annum while the Government ha.e spent a paltry £24,300 per annum! Yet tJ,cy talk about what they arc doing! They arc putting a burden on a section of the con1munib-· ·which the whole of the community shoulc!' rightly bear.
The SPEAKEE : Order !
Mr. MOH.GAX: This Bill takes all pmver away from th<• L·md Crmrt, nnd giYe• the Commission absolute control. Hereafter the Land Court will not be con8ultctl in anv shape or form. ·whatever the Commi·c,ioil decides will be la"'· and then? will he 110 appeal against their decision. A prosecution tna~,· be in·.iltutcd and 1he Cornini·~·~ioner sit on tllc bench and decide against yon. 1~ that British fair play? Even prisoners charged with murder have certain rights; but prickly-pear selectors are to lmve J;o rights v;hatevcr. \Ye give the greatest cri1ninal in Australia the ri[!ht to a fair trial.
Mr, FERRICKS: You refused that to \Valsh and J ohnson,
Mr. MORG_\N: Did not \Valsh and Johnsan get a fair trial?
Mr. FERRICKS: No.
Mr. MORGAN: Of course thev did and they were found "not guilty," sh'owing that they had a fair trial.
Mr. KING: That was not the finding.
Mr. MORGAN: The Commonwealth Go''crnment found they could not deport them. That shows they had a fair trial. The prickly-pear selector is ca.lled before the court, tried by the Commission, sentenced by the Commission, and the Government have taken away his right of appeal to an independent tribunal. The Government oug_ht to be ashamed of thcmeelves in that connection.
The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC LAKDS : Selectors have always got a fair dea.l.
Mr. MORGAN: That is all the Minister can say. We have nothing to complain of in regard to the present Commission. No one has more to say in praise of the members of the present Commission than I, but Providence may intervene at a.ny moment and new Commissioners be appointed. Yet here is a Bill which placp, the prickly-pear selector entirely at the mercy of t,hat Commission. That is not right, and I hope the Minister will reconsider several clauses in this Bill,
U.fr. Morgan.
and when amendments are moved, that he will' also give them the consideration they dcsene, I am only out to see that j nstice is done to those who have taken up land. I want to sec the whole of the State cleared of pear if it is at all possible; but we are never going to clear the w,holc of the pear i11 Queensland by poison, as the cof't of the labour is greater than the va.lue of the land when it is cleared. It is not a commercial proposition. The only way in which Queensland will be denuded of pear is by some insect or parasite introduced by nature or introduced from other countries. It is only possible with poisol! to clear lightl!'infested land. P01son will not denude the 51,000,000 acres of land at present covered with pear. That will have to be done by the cochineal insect or some other parasite that will work at night while we are sleeping, ThE' Minister knows that, and the Commission know it. All that the Commission can do to stop the spread of pea,r-they are doing it diectivelv I admit-is to see that land lightly infes'ted is cleared and kept clear.
Mr. MO ORE (A. ubi(lny): It is interesting to not<> the wav the Government have gone l~< k on three "Or four definite principles in regard ~:) clearing prickl:c-pear. It was definitelY stated when the Prickly-pear Land Act was' first brought in that the Commission would deal entirely and solel" with the clnring of pea.r. They were not to do anyihino- outside that at all. The members of the rommission were> appointed for a period of ten years, and they were to giYe their whole concentrated attention to this particular work. Now we find the position has been n.1toget.her altered. 'The c;;hairman of the Commicsion has been appomted to the Land Court. and the tenure of his office has been alt0r~rl. Instead of being for ten years the term is now limited to a period of three years, and part of his time is to be given to the Land Court. The Gov<'rnment also take power to 0)1point any other member of the Land Court to the Commic,,ion.
Then therr i,, a pro\-i:"ion hy Yirtuc of \Yhicrl anv rnembcr of the Corn-;.11ission can be a11poi:ii1·2d to any other Ood:"-·· This ]:-) :1 n1o~t f'Xtraordinary lJnn-ision. nnd I eannot see its oGjcct. The Bill proYirles that a.ny rnembPr of thn Couuni~~s1on rnay b(' a mcrnbcr of nny council Ol' c<,nlmittrc to whon1 the Prickf:.-peor Land Commission ha;. delegated any auth01·ity for the clearing of prickly-pear. The Gon_)rnor in Council is e-ntitled to appoint a n1en1bcr of t.he Commif3sion to such board or committee. PracticallY that applies to cyery local authorit:1· in the c'ountry districb of Queensland which have had the a,uthorit. to clear )l<'Hr dclPgah·d to them bv th0 · Pricld,·-]war Land Commission. I do not know \Yhv thr~ mernbcrc- of the Cornmif'sion should be' placed on such bodies, but there seems to be some c!Pfinite purpose behind the proYision. After all. the members of the Commiesion draw up the policy-and it is practically the policy of the Government -in rrp;ard to ('lf~C:ll'in,g- priddy-pcar. It. is their job to administer the .\et and to dclov,ate authority to certain local bodies to clear their ar< •• of pear. but it is quite unneccs~rtl'Y to allow one of the members of t-he Co~mission to become a member of the local authority which is carrying on the work. Th0 momb0rs of the Commission are appointed to supcnisc the whole work. The Minister did not. giyc any indication as to "hy that extra power i, granted, but to me
Pt.irUy-pE'lr Land Aet L l4 ~5EI'TEMBBR.] Amendment Bill. G09
it seems to be altogeth r outside the scO]Y of the Commission.
Than \YC corne to the ndmif' . ..:ioJJ for wbich we on this side have contended. and tho Governrnent havo ahva:':~ COlllbaJcd. that there arc certain areas oi prickl:;, -pear land in t.hc State which it is i"'PC'"iblc or impractic<tble to clear of pear. lwcause it woaL: not be \vorth anything Yrhon it \Va~ clParcd. The Govprnrncnt. at last evidently rccogni~eu that. \Vh::n ft man did not c.:lt·ar :-Juch areas proviousl~, thr> Govcrnn1cnt did n:;t. giv0_ l~iru credit for ha.Ying common sc•nso rn de('hn1ng tb t.hrow hi.3 n1oncv a\vav in trving to clear unclcarable land. 'The Govcrm1wnt have at last, metaphorically, fenced off c,ortain areas \Vhirh it is not possible- to clear, and henceforth men arc not expected to c·lear it. That i~ a position we flhould haxe recognised bdore, but now that it i" legalh· reco!;niseJ it will help a great numb r of people.
~\notlwr clause which I was surprised to see is that under which t hP Government arc definitely admitting that the Lands Dcpartm(mt have berm wrong in (.heir classification of areas. The dPpartn1cnt classified {'0rta.in arcaR in \Yhich they say ~ rnan 1nust not hold rrlorP than a cci·tain' quautity as a living an_,a,. The Prickly-pear Land Cornnli . ..,..,ion now come along and practically say that the L lnd-; Df~partment did ,~1otT know w~at t.hcv -were dorng. and "ay. V\ e are gorug to lw the bad:.~ to say wh:tt is a living area. \V(' can go to the :Mir,i.-tcr and sa\ that the clas·ification of th0 Lands Dc•partment ha;:; been wrong." \V0 r)n ihi . ..; :-.ido haYc advocakd that Jll'O]llc w:ilr land nnclPr this lJarticular tenure shou1d be allowed to hold a greater an'a. and thf' }Iinister ha,:; now pov. 0r to gr:tnt it. \Ye ha Ye held that that classification of land w'F v.cronv. and I am g-lad that that is DO\\. adn::i ,-ted. The cb ).irrna~1 of thf' 1?rickly-pertr La.Jcl Comnli~si"",n ha·, donp a YaluaLlC' ~crvic(~. \VP rccog·nisc thai he is corrllJCtent for h~~~ work, a.nd that is one of the l'('asons whv I regret to sec hirn going to the Land Cou;·L. I think, if he ret.aincd his po:-,ltion as f'hr1 irmnn of the Conuni·>f:ion onlv, tho Commis..;;_ion \Yonld haY(' bc'nPfltcd. Jlis Ser\·ief'-; \Yo·lld hayc been 1nore vfllna blc to thP State thrrn bv gi,-iug part of his timr to the Land Court aud p~nt to the Prickly-pear Land Comrn~ lo ___
~\nothcr thing I notic:' about the Bill is that the prejudices of the GrFcrnmcnt "ecm io die vcrv hotel. Let us g·o back to the Co1nmissioll \vhich '\vent round the pear diRtricts of Queensland to t • kc cvidenc, as to thr' bc··t method of dealing :ith thn pest. If that Commission had had the slip-lrtest charwo of getting into the Priekl;~·-pear Land \et what the' thought was nrccssary-that
is, the adoption of the fre~holcl tc:mre of pear 1and-thev 'vould have nHtde a rcconln1cndation in thut direction, but the:' >Yore definitely told that it \Yas no use going a.~·ainst the polic~~ of the Government in that rc•.pf'ct. Tho result >Yas that the recommendation was Pot n1ach~. although the n1cm!;Pr.-:; t'·cogni~ccl that that >vas one of the vital factors affecting the occnpP.tion of pPar lands. But now the Government arc goi1cg- just a little bit fnrther in that direction. TheY have admitted that they were wrong. but.' ini'tead of going the whole way, which in nF opinion would have been wiser, they mere!;-; provide that. instead of a reapprai<emcnt <'vory fifteen c·ears, they will have a '''appraiscment every thirty years. That is gi,-ing a little more security of tenure in return for the
1926--2 Q
rnoncv which a man has to spend on clearing a prickly~pcar perpetual lease or a prickly· pear lease. The only compensation which such a, man gets for his <'xpencliturc of 1nonev and labour is the extra value which it is going to give to the land. It is not a comn1unity-created value at all.
The SECRETARY FOH l't:BLIC LAXllS: It is ctlready partly in the Act. Thoro was 'n on:ission relating to pcrpetnal lease pricklypear selections.
Mr. MOORE: It mav have be~n an omission, but it is a ycry 'vital yJGid. I think that in the matter of clearing prickly-pear land there should not be a reappraisement for lift:• years. If you do that, vou give the man concerned the opportunit0 of securing ~0n1e of the value of the \vork he ha.s done. The argunF'nt which the Government put forV\ ard as to their perpetual leasehold policy is whollv based on the contention that the advance~ in land value~ is ;· cornrnunity· ~reatcd value. and consequently the Government '"houlrl have it. :-.:obody can s•~y that a~ regards prickly-pear. ThPrc the value i~ created l.H the labour of the incli,·idual. It is not a cor"nnntnity-crcated value at all. Thl' land would be 'abc.olntclv Yalnclc'' but for the lal>oclr of that man. "
Mr. vi'IXBT\XLEY: "\nd absolutely valueless \Yithout the con1n1unity.
:Hr. l\IOORE: :\ot at alL The man does the \York, and, if the con1n1unlty ''T{lS not. here at alL hr> could still sell his c·ommociity to people in the other States or d'PY\herc in the world. (Uovcrmw,nt di'"· .t.) Of course hP c~n: he docg it to-Ja:.. Eight\' per cent. of our dair, procluc(~ is cxportt__·d. The Ya..luc I arn talking a bo~:t. is not a conununh1: valtw; it is ~omcthing- outside that altoc;cthn. The land would be ab,olut "ly valueless were it not for the work 'rhich that individual puts into it. He crpaks the value by hi>< own individual labour, and he should be cLtitled to th~t value. (Governrnent di~~e11t.) Ho 1. ltH'nllwrs opyJOsite rr1a_:, 110 1
think so. but if the:.. had had anything tu do \vith clearing pear, they \vould know that. \1 hat I say is cqrrect.
Tho SECHET.\RY FOR T'eBLIC L.\XDS : It is a tninor am0ndmcnt carrying out the intcn· tions of the original scct~on.
:\Ir. l\100RE: That ma'; bl' so. but I would like to RPC' it g;o furthn: The 11rincinle to which the GovPrnmeut adhere shoald be rlPp>trtcd fro:n .otill furth'r. if WP arP to have dfPctivP tncttnwr:t of prickl::~peor land. It has to he roco6·nisf'd that t.hP con1rrlunity doP-=. not create the \·aluc of prickl~·-ppar lard >vhidt is cleared. If the individual ,.,·ho dears it got paid for tlw valne of his labour, the land would be wmth £10 er £15 an acre. Everybody who knows what it lll"cam knows that To-dav we hrvn~ rni1lions of acres of land l,·ing i'clle-ancl the,- arc goino: to continue to lie idle becaus(' men wil1 not take them up u::Jdcr the conditions offered. If any man takes up a block of that land and clears it, that is an advantage to the State. If we can bring it into use rather than let it lie idle as it is at present. it must be an <1 dvantagc to tlw Statc. V\-.-c haYC to recogni~0 that to get that hnd settled we must gin' it to the S< ttlcr on the tenure and under the conditions lw wants. It will lie idle unless there arC' ~omc insects or disease.·~ that we haYo not vet discovcrPd which will be <:>ffPctin' In dc~troying the pear. The ('OChinC'al
"~Jr. 2Vloore.J
610 Prickly-pear Land Act [ASSE:.\1BLY.] Amo1drnent Bill.
insect is not doing the \': ork to m eh an extent as would indicate that the problem will be solved in Queensland. Prickly-pear poison is not solving th~ problem because the expense is so great. I have had definite experience of the cost of destruction b;· this method. I shall give an instance. The local authority in which I was interested, acting as an authority under the Prickly-pear Land CommiP"lion, secured a contract for clearing 2 miles of road at a cost of £85. The Commission was of the opinion that the pricP was too high, and intimated that they would demonstrate how it could be cleared bv poison with the aid of proper a1nliances. 1 arranged that they should send out their own export to show what could be done. Up to the present that work has cost three times the original contract price. It onh goes to show that the expense of clearing b_v poison is a tremendous fnctor, and one which must be recognised.
Another principle departed from in this Bill which has not been departed from in any Act of Parliament in Queensland is that of placing the local authority last in its right to secure its just duos on forfeited properties. In the Water Bill the local authoritv is placed in the same position as the Irrigation Commissioner and the Agricultural Bank. This Bill provides that where property is forfeited and m·oney is owing to the Agricultura.l Bank and to the recognised authority under the Water Bill those two departments are to be satisfied first, after which the local authority can seek reimbursement. It practicaly means that the local authoritv which has expended the ratepayers' money in giving access to a property and providing the late tenant with services must come in last as a creditor. It has always been recogni~ed as a principle in Queensland that, where local authorities have had to construct works and carry out services for the benefit of individnals, the money so expended shall be a first charge on the land. Ver" often there are arrears of rates, particularly in these areas, when the land becomes forfeited as a rPsult of non-compliance with settlement conditions. As soon as it becorries forfeited all arrears of rates are practically gone because the Crown recognises no liability. If the new tenant pays sufficient to meet the liabilih-. the local authority is on an equal footing with the Crown in securing the amount of money expended, and it is only fan· that that should be so. Local authorities should rank equa.l with the Crown because they are not doing the work for th~ benefit of the individual bl't for the benefit of the community .. Thev are spending public funds for the benefit of a particular individual in that com'munitv, and in doing eo they are considering t.he "health and the economic means of transport of the P<'Ople in the community. Consequently they ''hould not be placed at a disadvantage under this Bill. This provision must eventually hit back. A local authoritv will n<>t expeJJd its fundo unless it has a -;..easonable chance of being paid the rates. If it is placed in the position of having two or three other authorities ohead of it in regard to the right to repayment, it will let the individual provide his own road and his \)Wn services. Local authorities must be given a reasonable chance of securing the money that they expend. I do not object to the Bill providino; that where it is proved that on two occasions a settler has failed to carry out the conditions he shall be not allowed to take up a prickly-
[ JJ1 r. 11! oore.
pear area again. That is a very wise proVISIOn. One of the greatest curses in connection with prickly-pea.r land is due to individuals taking up prickly-pear land without the slighte'<t int<"Htiol! of ,-uHillilll': the conditions attached but merelv to use the land as long as they can until called upon to· forfeit it and then leaving the land without having made any improvements whatever.
I thoroughh- agree with this [12.30 p.m.] provision, and I only hope that
it will be enforced. I do not wish to inflict hardship on the individual who makes an honest effort to carrv out the conditions of the lease. That ind.iYidual should be given every opportunity and encouragement to do so. The person I speak of usually takes up a prickly-pear lease merely forwhat he can obtain from it and then forfeits it. Tba.t person should be debarred from taking up any further leases. especially afterbaying been twice dealt with for so doing. \Ve have seen too much of that in the past.
Mr. FARRELL: Hear, hear!
Mr. MOORE: The provision enabling the Crown to use the monev coming frorn improvement-s on a forfeited selection towards clearing work that should have been done bv the tenant is verv drastic. A lot of land has been taken up by people who w0rc really ignorant of the difficulties of combating prickly-pcor. I have had a good deal of experience in pear clearing. and I haYC' seen people select land to remove the pear from which was a hopPless ta&k. They could clear a portion of it, and did so; but forfcit.cd the land after man:< years of work and 1he f'xpenditure of rnonc~v in in1proYG~ ments and fencing. Although the improvements a man is forced to leave very often tr'ean ve1-rs of work he is not entitled to anv of tlwm. That provision is absolutely unfair, and is not going to be of benefit to the' St.ate. The result will be that the value of the improvements ldt on a forfeited ~election i~ not going to h:: ~ufficiPnt. to c<1rrv out. thr work the selector failed to do, and· failed in some instances owing to the jgnorancn of the condition~ when sC'lect.ing. hilt which would enable the selector to make a new start in life or help hm1 along for a period.
:\1r. FARRELL: En'n if he deliberately avoided the prickly-pear conditions?
Mr. l\IOORE: I would rot deliberately, for many people have not clone it deliberatelv. 'i'he man ,,-ho deliberateh- fails to observe the; condii-ions selects the land, not with the view of placing improvements upon it. but to >ecurc the g;·azing rights only. I am not referring to "uch an individual as that. I am referring to the man who took up th0 land with 1hP object. of making a. hemP- for himself, a:Jd. a{tc'r having placed a certain amount of impronements upon the leasP, h;,s it forfeited bcc.1use ho is unable to comply fully ,vith conditions. That is a hardship on that man. If the money rJ\~ailablo from the ilnnroYc'mC'nts is going t.o be sufficient to clear the whole of the la11d according to tho cDnditio11s laid J.o\vn, it will be a different matter.
The SECRETARY FOR PFBI.If' L1:>:DS : The Bill only says the Prickly-pear Land Comrnission "may " forfeit. having regard to the incoming tenant.
Mr. :iYIOORE: Tbe incoming tenant has now to pay for the improvements.
Prickly-pear Land Act [14 SEPTEMBER.] Amrndment Bill. 61I
The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Why should ho have to do the work that the other fellow got possession of the hcnd to do '1
::Hr. MOORE: He is only paying for the i1~1proyen1ent.s and not for the 1L . .:al·-dc--·trillg.
The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC L.INDS : He will have to do that work.
'Yir. MOO RE: The incoming tenant. will take up the land under conditions which he is versed in. He knows that, if the land j, badly infested, he will receive more lenient conditions horn the Commission. It is onlv fair that the man who forfeits the selectioi', should have the right to his improvements in order to give him a fresh start.. Thew improvements very often represent years of work. I know men who, after having put in years and years of work on th,··ir selections, have had to forfeit them. If a man was granted the freehold title of the land after having cleared 50 acre• of pear. that. would ~how that he had not wasted his time. In rnan:. cases. after having selected 150 acres and cleared 50 acres, the selector finds it impossible to dear the balance, and forfeits the whol0 of the land. In those cases he has now to forfeit the improvements on the land to permit of the balance of the land being cleared. To my mind that is a hardship. and is wrong, and I do not stand for it at all. That provision is put in to harass nwn who should not be haras·,ed, but should be . ~ncouraged in every possible way to connnue the work they have started.
The only other part of the Bill which I do not like is the usurpation of the whole of the judicial duties of the Land Court bv the Commission. 'I'ho Commission is to say" how much land shall be taken up and how much shall be cleared, and also it has to supervise the work and see that the conditions are carried out. That is not right. When the Commission sits on the case in tho event of the conditions not being carried out, it is really prejudiced, and it is not giving the prtckly-pear land owner a fair deal or the justice he merits. That man is doing a big work for the countJ:y, and should be encouraged. He should not be placed in the position of feeling that he is going before a biased tribunal. No matter how liberally we look at it, we must acknowledge that the members of the Court must have a bias against the prickly-pear selector, because they have laid down the conditions, and, when they consider those conditions are not being complied with, they are the adjudicators. They lay the complaint against the people who come before them.
M·r. FARRELL: Th9se people are called upon to show cause.
Mr. MOORE: When a man 1s called upon to show cause he goes before an unbiased magistrate. Previously the Land Court dealt with these matters, and that was much fairer. The old method allowing an individual to appeal to the Land Conrt was much better. There .a man had an unbiased tribunal before which to place his position. The present proposition will cause him to think, " These people have found fault with m'l and are sitting in judgment on me; they are going to fine me or conoscate as they think fit." That is not a reasonable position. The men on our peaT lands have undertaken a tremendous task: particularly when we comider the price of land on which there is
no pear. Many men undertake the work because of the limited amount of their capitaL They are prepared to take on tenibly hard work in order to better their positions. The Government 'hovJc! make their position as easy as pos3ibk-, and not make them feel they are not securing a fai1· deal.
Apart from the clauses with which I have disagreed. I consider the Bill will be of some advantage to the men corw·.·nrcd, but I hope that when we go into Committee, the Minister will favourably consider the amendments I h"ve mentioned and so give these men a fair deal.
Mr. DEACO?\ (Cunningham): The predominant desire of this Government when amending any Land Act is still to keep to. the ono old principle that the eettlcr should not get too much out of it. Even in the case o£ prickly-pear land-land 'which i, absolutely worthless-the Government are sticking to· that principle. The Bill ccrbinly improves existing conditions, inasmuch u,s It give"' t,he Con1n1ission more po~~'I,'Cr to alter ronclitions, although it also impo;;es lnore restrictions on the sertler. lie has to conform to the conditions. V\hen a man takes up prickly-pear land the land is not worth anything to anybody. liP may make something out of it, but IH J' I o"ml b:; conditions as to residence and clearing, und it may not be possible for him to fulfil those conditions. It is useless to lock for selectors under these conditions. If a man is compelled to take his famil} out to prickly-pear country, they will have a pretty drear.v time. He must be a poor man. otherwise he would not go there. The Govern ment should give him the land for nothing, so long as he makes a living out of it. The ~ountry would then be better off.
Mr. CoLLINS: Another Jeremiah.
Mr. DEACO::"J: I am not a Jeremiah. The hon. member for Bowen is afraid that some poor men may go out there and make a living. and the State get nothing out of it. I do not want to see any restrictions placed on any man who i,; prepared to take up prickly-pear country. If a man likes to take up prickly-pear land, let him do what he likes with it. If he can make anything out of it, let him do so as the State v:ill bL'nPfit.
The Bill in regard to slight!~ -infested countr;.r givf'~ the Commission little n:OJ'C
latitude to vary the condition to selectors generally, and that will be a littl0 hdp; but the Government should go fnrthcr and deal with land that no one will take up at all under present conditions. \Vhat are the Government going to do with it? A provision might bo included in regard to such land. If a man does clear pear at present he has to pay rent at the end of his term. The man who has cleared land of pear should never be liable tD pay anything. as tn•' cost of clearing lightly-infested country is more than the capital value of the land. a.nd it is imnossible to clear land that is fair!-· lrcavilv infested. Why not let selectors h·a ve such land without anv rent whatever? It is no use asking people to take up this class of land under restrictions. If yon keep ou preaching long enough, the Government will listen in time. They have listened to variouc things we have put before them from timd to time, and the.v are graduaily lwcoming educated and more alive to their duties, afru·
Mt·. Deacon.]
Gl2 8Hpply. [Ai"SEMBL '.r.1 /;:htpply.
are taking a little more interest m the man on the land.
Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.
'The consideration of the Bill in Committee was made an Order of the Day for to-morro\v.
SUPPLY.
FIXAXC'l'.L STATE:I!EKT-RESU:Ili'TIOK OF DEB.\TE.
(Jir. l'ol/ock, (}regory, in t/11 chair.)
Question stated-·' That there be !:(ranted to His
:'vlajesty. for the service of the year 1926· 27, the sum of £300 to defray the salary of the Aide-de-Camp to ll is Excellency the GoYt:'l'D0r."
:\h. FRY (liuTilpa): A most significant paragrnph in the annual confL·~:-ion of failun' i~ that l'(~lating to State eni "l'1n·i,: -·s-
" The balancc-~hcots and reports upon the urL·rations of the Yariou;:, cnk~rpriscs will be made available to hon. members as early as possibl<'. The GoYernnH·Ht intPnd to eut the loss 111 rt~ard io those actiYities \Yh1ch do not gi \·e a rcasona ble prospect of ~tlC·~t :--:-3, and '\\ill shut do\Yll on, or di:;pc, (' of, any cnterpri::;e \v·hich <-ontinuf's to be \\OrkeJ at a lo>s.''
hase in rn.Y possession n book entitled •· Socialisn1 at \York." '\vhich ha:-. on the coYer thl.L·e ·words-
,, RESC:LTS OF THE \YORKIXG OF V""' \.Rrous STATE Ex·rERPRISES EbTABLJSHED BY rHE c2nEE;o; L~';o;D GoL.l,X\IE:-o:r, PnJLI>HED 1918.,'
Then we find in the book ·"· h·, t the Govcmment expected as the result of State trading. Th1~ paragraph secrn~ t.J bP the crux of the object of the book-
, J3, rctainiug- for the ~tat' thp profil previously ae-~ruing to pnYate Cl1terpri="L', add to the l'f'YenuE..·, and l'l'lltkr taxation and borro\-Ying increasingly unnPces· a1~ .''
\Yhat ar<• the results of the working of the Yariou::; StatE-' enterprise-s C"'taJ 1i~~hrd lrv tlw Queen:'land GovernnH~nt, judging thcn1 'as IH
30th Jum:- 1925 'I The lossc,. inclndiug un· charged mtcrcst, then exceeclc•d £2.00ll.OOO. There is abo _L5.COO,JOO uf capil 1 tied up i.I thC'~e entcr1:;_·1~,es. After ten ll'S the l.io-vcrnmrnt have Lmfc"'"ed 111 t·~, ir atte1npt to socialise industrv. The1p }Javt~ been hLLgP lo~~cs and no profi·t~. and ta.:~..atiou and borro•siug have been (rreater than hitherto. Borrowing, which"' ~as to bc rendered unnecessary, has incn~as_~cl. :1s sho·h n m the public debt. vVe fllld that the public <kbt has largely increased. Tnke the fiiTUY'C'
for the t" o periods menti-oned- "
] Pnblie~:~~-~nt.erest. ~Debt pl'r Capita.
I
£ I £ . £ •. d. 1914-15 [>6,869,000 1,975,000 ! ~ 18 5
1925·20 ; 102,450,000 I 4,577,G50 5 0 4
In 1914-15 the public debt came to £14 12s. ld per family of flvc, and it has been increased by this Government till in 1925-26 it was .£26 lls. Sd. This was one of the things that
[Jir. Deacon.
tbc Govcrnm0nt ~rtid thcv \YCre going to r1rcn~nt by State enterpris.es.
Thev also said that taxation was to be reduced or rendered unnecessary by the ]1''0·
fits made from State enterprise', but tlw taxation has been heavier than it \Vas before. Take the following years for comparison-
1914-15 1925-26
Taxation. £
954.000 4.104.122
The i .. -txation is much hcaYier as v .. ill be seen h_v takin<e the payments in the two elcYen· .'>ear periods up to and including 1914·15 and 1925-26, respectively-
1914-15 1925-26
£ 7.2t3.9H
32.945.957
If we bring that clown to the family basis. we find that the taxation has increased in this way-
-- I l9t.J-L). 1' 2:.-:~ti. -------'-·----- -~- ~- ·-·-Per capita 1
Per faruily of fiYc
£ s. d.
1 "
0 !IJ
);) +
2:l 1 G 0
And wo were told that. State enterprise \Yould produce )lroflt · that wonld add to revenue. and render taxation and borrov.-ing lncre.isingly unnecessary. It secrr~·:; that in ull These things v.,hich State entt·rprise was going to do it has failed.
There- is, rnoreo;;cr, another tax \vhich is not included in the figures I hav;· giYon, that i~. the tax due to uncn1ploFmcnt, tlv:~ lo:-:s of wages, and the ;;_,tagnatjon of indi..1str.\. The: me.cn a ver:-· big kss to the State. If a. rnan is out of w<Jrk for a wc-rk, for in'tauce, he lose' his wages for that time. That is a direct tax of itself. The policy of the Gove-rnment to socialise jndn~t.rv has bL'Cn a failure, not only from the point of \'ic"~ of the industries concerned, but also from the point of Yicw of the State, because it is a standing disgrace to any Government that with a State of mugniilcent rC'·~ourcc-.; ha:-o been unable, in spite of an expenditure of £5.000,000, to carry on its enterprises except with tremendous lo". 'They come along now with their annual ronfe'·'3ion of failure in regard to State entcl·prisP...:, but on this occasion the, add something more. They say, "\Ve have failed, but we are not going t-o go on failing. \Ye are going t-o cut the losB a.nd proceed in the orclinary way."
Mr. KERR: They tried to sell their station~.
:\1r. FRY: That is so. But time will not allow me to go into details. 'The whole of the finances of the Government seem to be t·ight out of hand. The Treasur<'r is nna ble to g·'t a grip on them. and whatever may be the cause of this loc>seness of basiness method and of the drift into which tho Government have got, I hope that some day the Treasurer will take heed of tlw sitna.tion, and. if he finds that his party is the ea use of his trouble, he will a pp ea! to t.he Opposition to assist him out of his difficulties.
HoN. W. H. BARNES (1Vpnnuml: 'The Financial Statement which we are now discussing \vas unique in that the Trea:::urcr
Supply. ,14 REPTEMBER.] Supply. lil3
sought to explain quite a number of things ,,-hich have happened while the Labour Go,-ernmcnt have controlled the affairs of the State. One could not help, as he listened to the Treasurer, going back over the past and r;:nwmbering some of the platitudes which were uttered bv the Government and Go,-ernment suppot:ters when some of the undertakings were first brought into being. I rder more particularly to State enterprises, which have a-lready been touched upon bv previous speakers, and of w.:1ich I shall speak later. \Vhen State enterprise:. were first su~gcstcd scarcely a memb('r on the othL·l' side was not, ready to get up and say that the,- were gotng to confer >vonderful a dvantages on the workers. They were going to help verv materially towa.rds reducing the cost of hving.
Mr. COLLINS: So they did.
Hox. \V. II. BAR:\'ES: Tlw hon. member for Bowcn savs thev did. I desire to draw the at-tention of ho'n. members to a report de>tling with State enterprises-! refer more particularly now to the butcher shopswhere it was stated that the sales had been ,-erv much l<"·s. \Yhv: Because the competition with private' ent.erprisc had kiiled them. That really was the gist of the report. Two factors were specially stressed as being likely in connection with the policy of the Gon;rnmcnt One was State enteqwiscs, and t·hc other borrowing. I need scarcely remind : ou, Mr. Pollock, of the old pamphlet which was signed by Mr. Fihell:-. In passing, allow me to sav that evcrv hon, member regrets exceedingly the accident to Mr. Fihell0 and sincerely trusts he ma~ soon recover.
HoKOt:RABLE MDIBERS: Hear, hear!
Ho~. \\'. H. BAR?\ES: That pamphlet was signed by Mr. Fihell.v and the late Premier, Mr. E. G. ThcodorC'. Mr. Fihelly and I were bitter!:.- opposed politically, but not. personally. He always did me the courtesy. ''hen he was Treasurer, of handing ml", as an ex-Treasurer, a copy of the Financial Statement that he proposed to deliver. There were two things that were specially stressed in that pamphld. One was that fi;:>ance was to be absolutely straight·. Going nght back to the earlv davs of the Labour part:.-, it will be found that every member stressed to the fullest extent the question of finance and what it meant. to the State. How things have changed since then ! The hem. member for Kurilpa has drawn attention to the fact that tlto loan policy of the Goyernmcnt has been an extravagant polic,v. and, when one consider' that· since 1914-15 to the present mo.·nent loan borrowing ha .. nearlv doubled. or in other words the indcbte'dne'S is nearlv t\1-icc what it was in 1914-15, it must be c admitted that we have absolutely been g-oing shong in that connection. On previous occasions I havc sounded <1 warning note in that regard. \V c can11ot continue to borrow. I care not whether it be the Sbt.e or whether it be a private indiYidnal, you cannot continue to borrow unlrss YOU can inYest vour loan n:onev in intcrc~t~ .bearing concern~. It i- deplor~ble to thi;,k that that has not been done by this Government. The Treasurer has said in his Financial Statement, " \Ve are going to t-hrow over State enterpriseo." A lot of them have gone already--
The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR A:SD INDUSTRY : \Yhcr<: did you read that?
Hox. W. H. BARNES: I distinct!:.- heard the rrrcasurcr sav so. It is in his Financial Statement. I am surprised at a member of the Cabin et not knowing the policy of the Government.
The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD IKDl'WfRY: I know the policy of the ·Government, but it is not what you say.
Ho~>. \V. H. BAR:r\"ES: If to-dav the Government could sdl the State ,t,itions, I guarantee they would sell them and say, •· Thank vou" to the man who bought them. The policy 'of the Government is to get rid of these things.
'l'he SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD IXDt'STRY: There is no intention to sell the rail ways.
HoK. W. H. BARNES: I never said anything about the railways.
The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR A:SD IKDt'STRY : You said ''all State enterprises."
HoN. vY. H. BAR~ES: To show that niY ~tatern('nt is correct, I \vould dra\v thA" attention of the Committee to page 7 of the Financial StatcmPnt of the Treasurer. ~he [allowing pa,sa!re appears under the bea.dmg of '' State Enterprises" :-
" The balance-sheets and reports upon the operations of the various enterprises will be made available io !ton. members as earh- as possible. The Government intend i:.o cut the loss in res1wrt to those activitic~ which do not giv0 a reasonable prospect of succes,, ar.d will shut down on or ·dispose of an.v Pntcrpnse which continues to be ·worked at a loss."
It will be found that the ,;htement. I made \\a-.; stricti~ correct. because, as a matter of fact, ali the State enterprise' .,-ith the
exception of bvo-inSurancc and r2 p.m.] the railway refreshrncnt:rooms-
are worked at a lo". T11e great majorit\ h,_ve been worked at a loss from tlw'ir inception, and, in addition. arc very largely reoponsible for the J]nancial position we find our solves 111 to-day.
I want to deal with two or three phases of public life, and in that cam ccion I propose to deal with borrowing as viewed by tho Labonr party some years a~o and workers' dv\'0llings. I first IYis~ to give ~ little of the historv associated w1th tl1c attltude of leading 'members of the Labour partv in c•Jnnection 1vith borrowing. In tnaklng a statement it is ver:~- important to be sure of the facts. I notice that in 1910 the hon. member for Queen ton '·n.s very prorr1inent in the debate in connection ... ,·ith borrowing, and at page 2988 that ban. member had this to say-
" A good deal depends upon whether we can rnake the monev we i orrow pay interest. A man who in his private capacity borrowed money at 4 per cent. when he knew he could not make it pav more than 2 per cont. would not be long before inso!Ycncv overtook him. and the pr-inciple \vas the same jn connection with individuals as with nations."
::\1r. WmsTANLEY: That opinion still., holds good.
Hox. \Y. H. BARNES: I ~m g!Pd to hear the hon. member say so, though ho is not practising it.
Mr. WINSTAKLEY: Yes, he is.
IIon. Tr. H. Barnes.]
<614 Supply. [.\'3SK\IBLY.] Supply.
Hox. IY. H. B.&Rl'\ES: It is very ap;oarent that the Govc~rnmcnt he i3npport.;:; arc not practi,ing it. In the same :·car the late :VIr. O'Sullivan, the then member for Kennedy, made the"'p rcn1arks, which arc contained in '' Hansard," page 2986-
" ;.,; eedle:-:-~ to c. ay, I am n11posnd to this loan policy, because. in my opinion. it is not nocP.-:~arv for the Government of a State like QllPensland io go to aHy foreign market for money to dove lop the resources of the State."
Then we have l\fr. Hardacre, now one of the judges of the Land Court. ·.dio was an authoritv on financial Jratten, making another 'statement. His remarks on the 1oarl Df £2.500,00C appear at pa<;"e 65 of " Hansard " for 1912. I am quoting these things to show how the hi!'"h nrinciples which were then supposed to be hold by supporters of the Government have been ;thsolutelv departed from. Mr. Hardacre said- ·
" He was one of thos· who told the Gov0rmnent at the tinw that thev W'·ro rushing on to destruction in following the policy previously adopted in :\ev, Zealand-by Sir J ulius Vogl"!-tho policy of 'borrJ\V, boorn, and l:::nr:"t.'"
The .SECRETARY FOR LABOl n .GD Ixrn·sTRY: A good police··
Hox. W. H. BARNES: Ha .. not the loan policy of this Government. when one considers it over a pe>·iod of about eleven :vears, been a policy of " Borrow, boom, and bUn:,:·"? The Government should devote a little time to reading what their own supporters said t~en, and find _out w,hither. they are drifting. \\ hether we hke to admit 1t or not. borrowed mone,- has been put into ventures of an unprofitable nature, with the result that the money has been spent unwiselv bv the Government, • ·
The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Did you not borrow when you were Treasurer?
HoN. W. H. BARNES: What a senseless interjection! Of course; but we did not put our mane:;- into such wild-cat ventures as are patronised by this Government, '.V e had not such inflated ideas as the hon. gentleman w1th rPgard to rnunng. V\r~th th hon a•'nt!l'nutn those Y('nture<.: are Rhvrt~"5 a;);·t to turn np trumps, but, as with Micawber the time has not come yet. I hope the 'hon, g_entleman •·;ill realise some of his anticipa· tions w!th regard t'? mining, for mining is a very 1mportant thmg for Queensland, and ~o hon .. member on this side will say that it !S not Important, The Secretary for ;'\Tines 1s one of the most optimistic members of .my Cabinet we have had.
Mr. TAYLOR: Super-optimistic.
Ho". vY. H. BARNES : I do not know ;vhat glasses the hon, gentleman wears, but, If the hon. member for Kurilpa were here, I might ask him. Where has that borrowed money gone? That is the part that perplexes me. It cannot be found that the money spent on those ventures has been for the betterment of the community generally. Undoubtedly to a great extent it has been absolutely wasted. Some of it went into State stations, some into State butcher shops, some into State sawmills. Vi'hy, Sir, we were to have fresh fish practically for nothing, and the country people were also to be supplied with fish, State fish shops were established and a fish tra w !er was purchased, and
[Hon. W. H. Barnes.
all sorts of other things were done. \Ve have obtained practically nothing from that. venture' and the losses on those ventures hnve been' particularly regrettable. AltogeTher the policy of the Govern_mcnt has been a policy of extreme borrowmg. The Sydne_:v " Bulletin" of 12th August. 1926, sums 1t up very nicely in these wordB-
" Queensland still carries its tail high. From 1914-15 to 1924-25 the increase in Australian tax>ttion (State and Foclcral) per capita was 163 per cent. Queensland', rise in the same preiod was 232.3 per cent. Its burden of taxation for 1924-25 was £4,104,121, as against £954,457 in 1914-15 or a per capita jump from £1 Ss. 2d. to £4 15s. 3d. The privilege of being run bv strike corr!mittees and umon organi;crs is a. pretty expensive one.·'
Mr. I-IAXLON: That is what they Faid about you a few years ago.
Ho~o;. W. H. BARNES: The public have learned that the old Liberal Govemment pursued a wise policy. But what is the position to-day? ,Just look at what has happened! The pohcy of the Government has actually failed, and some of the staternenb of the Treasun~r in his FinanJ21al Statement are absolutcl:v glossed over. I do not for one moment wish to suggest th11t the Treasurer has made am statomPnt that is not correct; but I do say that, alt-hough he has polished up his utterances, yet, when vou come to exan1inc them, they can be lmlled to pieces ab sol utcly.
The SECRETARY FOR LABO<:"R ACi"D lKDcSTRY: You will take the gloss off them.
lioN. W. H. BARNES: I am goil)g to do so straight awa~-. On page 4 of the Treasurer's St.atement the actual balance of the Loan Fund at the 30th J uno is said to bf' £4.795,612. That is right so far as bookkeeping is concerned ; but no one would suggest, on turning UI? the Trea·,urc';'s tables, page 41, that that Is corr:ct. \\hat was the actual balance? ~\ccordmg to the Treasurer's tables, page 41, the act-ual credit balance at 30th June, 1926, was only £2.363,022 Ss, ld. The figures, according to Table I., are-
Cr. £ s. d. Loan Fund 4,795,611 13 6 Treasury Notes Account ... 22,641 0 0 Government Savings Bank
Inscribed Stock Account 298.365 4 6
£5,116,617 1S 0 This is where the fly in the ointment co:nes in-
Loss debit balance'--
Consolidat-ed Revenue . Trust Funds
£ 985,021
1, 76S.574
s. d. 6 5 3 6
£2,753,595 9 11 Showing a credit balance-not of £4,795.612, but of .£2,363.022 Ss. le!. The Treasurer la: er on speaks of trust funds, but the fact rcmams that, whilst at one stage 1t would appe1_1r as though there was £4,795,612 on hand m the Treasury or in London or somew~ere else no such balance existed. At. one time a c~rtain amount was paid fron1 revenue to wine out the debit on revenue account that existed at that date, but here we have gone to the bad £985,021 6s. 5d. The Trcas~mer suggests three courses. He says we m1ght raise it. by a loan, charge It to trust funds,
8uppiy.
<Jr let it stand over. It has been left to stanc over for the present presumably in the hope that the finances will improve in such a way that later on it may be wiped out fmm surplus revenue.
l\'Ir. PEASE: You had a floali1w debit balance when you wero Treasurer. b
Ho". \V. H. BAR::-.IES: I am verv much surprioed at the hon. gentleman iuter"_iecting, bc•cuuso the other day he quoted figures which ''ore uot correct, or ra!hcr the year \Ya~ not correct.
::\Ir. PEASE: The yc•ar was all right.
.Ho". \V. H. BARNES: Part of it w.cs nght and pan of it was wrong.
A CfovEmniE"T :WniBER: Hmv were tho trust 1 unds spent when you we: c Treasurer;
Hox. W. H. BAR::'oJES: I shall deal later on 1th trust funds and the balances. The trust debit of this Government in 1925-26 was £1,768,574 .. Where has it gone? Some Df It has gone mto Statf1 smelters. vYe iind a note, •· See Treasurer's Tables, p. 18." Then ":e find that the money has gone in other d1·rechons, and the monev has not been expended wisely. I shall sh;,". later th.1t the trust funds which are in debit to U!ic sum I have mentioned have been helped very matenally, notwithstandmg that debit, by the substantial funds standinu to the credit of the Public S8rvice Supora1~nuation Fund The " Insurance and Banking· Record ,; ohows that the taxation collected bY the Commonwealth and State Govcrnmer1ts in 1925-26 was £76,668,196. I mention this to show that the indebtedness of Australia has become something which every citizen has a nght to facC' and consider. I am prepared to admit that there is not a man here who if the occasion a·rose, and it was necessar~ to defend the Empire, would not be prepared to expend mono,- in that direction The fact remains, howe\~er. that Australia i~ carrying a very heavy load for the populatron we ~ave got. In Queensland there has been an mcreasc of over £10 000 000 in four years. 'The loa9 .is growing: a~d we have to face the positron whether it be in the Federal or State sphere·. vVe have to appropnate the wo1·ds of the hon. member for Queenton, and show that, unless there is a return to better methods the dav of reckoning is coming. Who is i't that ,~ill feel that day of reckoning? Evervbodv in the community; but those who 'will 'feel most are !he people who occupy the humblest positions m the community, bel:ause it is upon them that the great burden of unemployment falls.
. For the years 1924-25 and 1925-26 respectively the revenue collected in Queensland and Victoria was-
Queensland
Victoria
_j 192~~-~ ---1925-20._
!, 3,91%,160 I ±.10:1,121
4,583,200 4,909,440
Later on I am going to give figures to show that whilst our collections of revenue and taxation have increased abnormally that has not been the case in some of the other States.
Meanwhile I want to deal with another question which was raised by the hon. mem-
Supply. 615
ber for Queenton and other hon. members with regard to workers' dwellings. The boil. member said that every bit of good legislation which was enacted bv GO\·ernmems prior to the advent of Labour· was practicaliy forced· frorn them by hon. n1>:tnbcrs opposit'~ who were then sitting on this siclc of the Chamber. and that it "as du'' crtirel to that party that any good lcg:slation wa; introduced.
Hon. members onposite dai n credit for everything in the direction of humanitarian legislation. Let us deal with the workers' dwellings. vVe are told thvt h0n. member· opposite were really rPsponsible for workers' dwellings.
M.r. WRTGHT: The same old tale!
HoN. W. H. BARNES: The late Hon. T .• J. R:van once said, "\Vhen you have a good thing to sa:-:·. say it over and over and over again." The quotations I am going to make are different from any previously given, and will bring into the qul:stion people who have not previously been brought into it. Let us see what the position was in 1909 when the Workers' Dwelling-s Bill was introduced. Let us turn np some of the utterances which were made b•: hon. members then sitting on this sick." The:v were against it, primarily because they said their policy was leasehold and not freehold. Mr. Lesina said-
" This is an Act to h0lp workers with small incomes. who have in some mvsterious wav secured an allotmentperhaps it was purchased by their fathers fifty years ago."
\Ve all know that Mr. Lesina was one of the brainiest members of this Hone'. ::-.lo m·n1 could speak better than hf'. none was more capable. To that Mr. Murp.hy interjected-
" vYhy not try to help them to get an allotment?"
And ;Mr. Lesina replied-" Perhaps that would be mnch better,
but, personally, I am not voing to help any worker to get a freehold, because I am against that principle.
'' The Treasurer : It is against your platform.
" Mr. LESI~ A : It is ag-ainst the principles of the Labour party."
The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Ho is not a Labour man.
HoN. W. H. BARNES: Like other men who have got sense, he left the Labour party as soon as possible. We shall find the optimistic Minister leaving it some day. (Laughter.) Mr. Lesina continued-
" Our platform is for State ownership of all lands, and it is against an:; attempt to encourage freeholds. If we are going to give workers freeholds. then we strike at once at the very principle of State ownership."
I notice that the only time hon. members opposite favoured freehold-somehow or other it is because the millennium has not yet come-is when they are getting some themselves.
Mr. PEASE: When they cannDt get lease· hold.
HoN. W. H. BARNES: Mr. Alien, the then member for Bulloo, as repDrted on page
!Ion. W. II. Barnes.l
616 Supply. [ASSE:\mLY.J Supply.
248 of " Hansard " for 1909, said on the same Bill-
" I desire to record my protest against what appears to me to be a most hollow measure. . . . It do not think I will be far wrong in prophesying that it will be as useless as the Agricultural Bank Act."
Take the attitude of the Government to-day in regard to workers' dwellings. They are twisting. They say they are boosting the '>'stem. Are they? The Trcrtsurcr's tables on page 19 state that the last voar the Go,-ernmont spent on advances 'for workers' dwellings a sum of £542,194, and on workers' homPs £216.755. Bnt during previous years the policy of the Government was absolutely one of inaction. Thev would have liked to throw the whole thing overboard. The amount spent in the years from 1920-21 were-
Year.
1920-21 1921-22 1922-23 1923-24 1924-25 1925-26
Amount. £
216,902 193,732 345,003 496,282 363,481 542,195
£2,157,595
And we know that applications were turned down. Applicants were told that the Government had no m'onev. Thcv wanted it to put into some of their· other ,;entures !
A GOYERN:I!E:-!T ME~IBER: What did they spend on workers' homes?
HoN. W. H. BARNES: I have alreadv given the amount-£216,755. Later on, I Will show that m the last vcar of officp of the precvious Government a ~ erv much larger ?-n1ount \vas spent 1n one year than \vas spent In onr year hy this Government.
Tlw SECR,T\RV FOR :\1I:<:ES: 'Which Governlllf'nt \Vas that?
Ho~. \V. H. BAU:\"ES: The hon. 1-ientleman knows. and would he not like• to be " mernhPr of such a sane (~ov<'rnrnent ~ (Government laughter.)
The SECRETARY FOR Pt;nLTC \YonKs: TheY have bf'E'n out of office for clcvPn vcars. "
Ho:-~. W. H. BAUNES: A little while ago I made some reference to expenditure and the reason wh: the Govcrnrncnt have not been able to mftke money available for workers' dwellings according to the applications received. The State ,,tatioriR and the State produce agency to?k c£2.279,750. I hop0 that. I shall not be nusunderstood. I have said before, and I r0poat to-day that the State produce agency is run b:v a n1an v;:lJO 1~ n1~Jst <;apablc. I _refer to J.\(fr. Ba1T. I do not ;VIsh It to be said that I am trying to drag m a man who cannot answer for himself. Ho renders very efficient service. and is a g-entleman all the time. In connection with ~tate. coal mines, I think tho Bowen coal field Is regarded as the bright .,pot.
Mr. COLLixS: A very bright spot.
HoN. W. H. BAR:'-JES: The State coal mmes absorbed £321,940; th0 Chillagoo State smelters and Jl.iount M:ulligan works £753,588. I think the Minister will admit that they are going strong in that direction.
Jl.1r. O'KEEFE: They are going strong next. week with the work.
[Hon. W. H. Earnes.
Hox. W. U. BAR:\'ES : I dare say thf' hon. gentleman has been whipping the Government up a bit.
Mr. O'KEEFE: A good proposition, too.
Ho:<:. W. H. BAU:\"ES: If anything oan be done to help the mining industry of the State, we are out to help it. '\Ye are not out to destroy the mining industry.
Mr. C. J. RYAx: You are moaning a good deal.
Ho~. W. H. BAR:\'ES: The minin(i industry has saved Queensland again and ag":in. We are not here to ,docn- the mimng industry, but we say that it does not matter what undertaking the Government are engaged in, they should sec to it that there is a fair return for the monw: expended.
Mr. O'KEEFE: 'They have put it on a sound basis now.
The SECRETARY FOR :\fiNES: \Yhat a\oo'lt :'>fount :Morgan?
HoN. W. H. BAR"-'ES: Reference was made to 1,652 persons applying for home:; In 1913-14, 951 persons applied for bomb, whereas in 1917-18 only 473 persons applied for homes. There is a shrinkage. \Vll:v? Because of the want of sympathy 1y the Administration because it was against their policy. The other day a suggestion was made that something in the direction of freehold should be included in a Bill. How \vas it met? It was turned down absolutely.
The SECRETARY FOR AGRICI:LTL'HE: Very properly turned down.
Hox. Vi'. H. BAR:\"ES: It was not very properly turned down. It was something that would haYc improved the measure imn1enscly.
Mr. \YRIGHT: In 1917-18 the young men of Queensland wore in khaki outside of Queensland. and were unable to appl,,- for workers' dwr'llings.
Hox. W. H. BAR':\ES: The Labour party hav0 claimed all the credit for the introduction of humanitarian legislation. \Yho hid th0 foundation of the humanitarian legislation in Queensland?
The SECRETARY FOR PCBLTC \YORKS: '\Yhose progran1mo -was it in first?
Hox. \Y. H. BAR""ES: The Liberal GoYcrnrncnt's.
The SECRbTARY FOR Pc:BLIC WoRKS· \Vith thirty-five Labour mernbf'rs behind them.
Ho:<:. '\V. H. BAR:\"ES: The Labour party were never behind the Liberal Government. Th0 hon. gentleman knows that. For a time the-.- \vere behind Mr. Kidston. \Yher: the statements of hon. members opposit • with regard to which party laid the foundation of humanitarian legislation are analYsed, thP:V are found to be absolutely wrong.
'l'lw SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC v\"ORKS: I will ~:·iyc you some history in conncctjon with tlH'lYl.
Hox. W. H. BAR:\'ES: I am glad that the hon. gentleman is going to gi\ c the Comruittco s-ome historv in conncrt1on with early closing and o1d-aie pensions. Frorn what-
ever angle we look at old-age [2.30 p.m.] pensions, early closing, or
workers' compensation, the fact remains that this humanitarian le-gislation was introduced hv the previous G-oY<'rnrnent and not by the '"Labour Gon·rnment, who clai1n evPry good.
Supply. [14 SEPTEMBER.] .'-'upciy. n7
The SECRETARY FOR 2\lllNES: The :Morgan· Kid<ton Labour Government passed old-age pensions.
Hox. W. H. BARNES: The hon. gentle· man 1s V1 rong.
Mr. ROBERTS: Hear. hear~ He was not in the House then.
The SECRETARY FOR MIKES: I remember supporting it.
HoN. W. H. BARNES: The hon. gentleman ought to be exceedingly careful when making such a statenwnt, because I ha.-e looked into the history of these matters, and can give him chapter and verse for my statement.
The SECRETARY FOR MIKES: The Right Hon. A. Fisher was the first man who iLtroduced old-age pensions in this HDuse.
HoN. W. H. BARNES: I\o hon. member would wish to say a word against the Right Hon. A Fisher. hut the fact remain that the first legislation which had for its object the benefiting of humanity was passed by the L1bcral Government.
The CHAIRMAN: Order! Order ! The hon. memher's statements arc verv far away from tho Financial Statement. •
HoN. W. H. BAR::'\I"ES: I should be very sorry, Mr. Pollock, to tr"nsgre''S the rules of debate, but my arguments have all to do with finance. You kumY that I alwavs fall in line with what the Chair states. •
I propos'' now to dc:>l with the Treasurer's Tablco, wh1ch arc rcrrarded as part and r:arcel of the Financial Statement, and to point ont how some of the monev has been spent in connection with certain ,\·arks. The Treasurer's Tables for 1914, page 8, show that. thP vote for building-s for 1914-15 was £253.771, and that only £190,438 was spent. 111 making these comparimns I want it to be t.orne in mind that building is ,-ery rnurh clearer now tban thea. In 1925-26 the amount voted for the same purpose was .£260,994. I want to show that th0 present Gonrnment, though the.· cbim to bo in s.nnpathv with those who have to do with buildings and in helping to raise humanity, ha.Yo not done very n1nch from revpnue. How v. as thi< vote spent" Onlv £124,712, 0r about £66,000 less then in 1914-15, was expended.
I want now to deal with another factor 1•:hich has an important l1earing on tho communit0·. In fact, I do not know of anvthing that has a greater bearing on the w·£~1-fnro of the communitv than tax.ttion. In 1914-15 the taxable in~ome of taxpayers in this State was £16,095,766, and the taxes payable £725,923. The Committee will fmd that the taxable income in 1923-24 was .,~17,921,838, or an increaee in that period of £1,826.072; but it will be noticed that although there \Vas onlv an increase of £1,82?,072 in taxable incorne. the taxes payo.ble mcrr 1scd from £725.923 to £2,058.586. When one stops to consider, he must realise that w<' haYe been going on at a tremendou·, rate, and have increased the amount bv £1,332,663 ! The whole of the increase wa~' absorbed in taxation-an increase equal to 143. 8d. in the £1. It does not matter on which side he sits, every hon. member has a right to face these things and realise where the money is going.
The Estimates for last year, as shown by the Treasurer in his Statement were not
realised, the shortage being £10,282. There was an anticipated surplus of £11.389, according to the previous Financial Statement, but that did not eventuate. I know the Treasurer in delivering his Financial Statement caid that the increase to the railway men accounted for a big sum. It did, but by no means did it come up to the rc;tlised deficit of £554,686. The railways, v. hich were estimated to bring in £7,550,000 last year, received only £7.392.241, wbich thouf.'h le'S than the anticipation, was £339,930 more than for the preYious year. We find that the appropriation for the year 1925-26 was £6,062,473.
I want now to ask the earnc~t attention uf the Committee to something. In Victoria the taxable incomP increased from 1914-15 to 1922-23 by £20,231,048 and the taxes payable as a result of the increase by £865,795. Compare that with Queensland. where we i1:creased the income by over £1,000,00_0 a!'d absorbed nearlY the whole of that m mcreased taxation. Is it any wonder that industry in this State is not as brisk as in Victoria? When Dne considers- that the Taxation Department tak<''• the mDney out of the pockets of the people instead of allowing that rnonev to go ir;to enterprises, it ~s no wonder that we are m our present posrtion. ·we have to face that position. Have v ou, Mr. Pollock, looked very closely into the Estimates of last year? There is one thing which is a disgrace to the Governm~nt. The Estimates reveal the fa<'t that hosp1tal additions have been cut down from £6,000 to £5,000, and school building-s from £60,000 lo £51,900; and yet there does not seem to be anY moYement on the part cf the Government "to take a grip of the existing financial position. rrhe finanacial position is RUC'~ that it should be gripped. These very Estir:-,ates reveal something--two things to me. I am told that the Board of Trade and Arbitration decides the matter of 'iNage-., but look at some of the instances in the Estimates! The salary of the dock fore· man is sbown at £425 for last year and £425 for the prco.ent year; the salary of the dock timekeeper is £300 for the 'ome two yearsno increase for two years ! Son10how or other the Government have departed from the policv of helping the man wbo is clown, and arc helping the man who is np. That is a policy that is detrimental to tl1e bc,t interests of the community.
!Yh·. PEASE: What about the automatic increases?
HoK. W. H. BARNES: It is extraordinary that in some cases there are no automatic increases. Apparently the position is one ·that \vants the closest scrutiny and analysis, so that the public may understand the position. According to the Treasurer's tables for 1918-19, page 35, the railways. in 1913-14 earned £3 lls. 9d. per cent., and in 1914-15-not. 1915-16-they earned £3 13. 9d. per cent.
There is a reference in the Treasurer's Financial Statement with regard to a sum of money being obtained from the CommDnwealth Bank at 4~ per cent. I have always held and I repeat it again to-day, that one of the greatest political sins committed against this country was the handing over of the State Savings Bank to the Commonwealth Government-. It was a crime against the community. "What rate of interest is allowed to depositors? I think I am right in saYing that w-day it is 3~ per cent., and t-he Government, when they controlled the
Hon. W. H. Ban~es.]
618 Supply. [ ASSEl\IB L Y .]
Savings Bank-I admit they had the expense of runnina the bank-had the use of that money. If" there is a certain shortage, accord. ing to the agreement it has to be made good. Can any person say it is go~d busmess to pay 4~ per cent-. for money w hwh could have been had for very much less, besides the standing it gave to the community in connection with the money they had? The whole position is one that calls for severe condemnation. It mav have been because of financial noeds-I do not know-but someth,ing happened, as a result of which this money was allowed to go.
No matter on which side of the Charrber we are sitting, the questron of finance is one that is ven vital to t-he community to-day. The Treasurer has admitted it in his Financial Statement. As a result of the drought. probably large numbers of men are seeking employment. and cannot get it. One only needs to run a business to-day t-o know that men are coming along looking for something to do, and others are writing letters bogging for something to do. Unemployment is with us, and as members of this Committee, we have a right to face the position. The Government. should look more closelv into the question of finance, and realise the 1·esponsibility that rests upon them at this time. I may be told that I am a Jeremiah, but go down some of the streets of Brisbane to-day and you will find t-hat, busy as some people may be in their offices. quite a number of rooms on the ground floor are to let. People are vacating the offices because they are feeling the pinch of the times. We who are controlling the affairs of this great country have a duty-to face the position and see where economy can be practised in order to deal with matters which a.ro so vital to the best interests of the community.
Mr. C. J. RYAN (Eacham): After listening for three weeks to hon. members opposite drawing such a gloomy picture in regard to Queensland, one feels satisfied that they have uo real knowledgB of the State. I was much surprised to hear the hon. member for Wynnum say that all thB humanitarian legislation that had been passed by the Labour Government in Queensland was initiated hy the party to which he belongs. Hon. members opposite have a wonderful amount of assurance in making statement like that in face of their record. There is no record of the hon. member for Wynnum speaking in favour of the Workers' Compensation Bill whBn it was going through this Chamber in 1909; but there is a record of a certain amendment which Mr. Ryland, the then member for Gympie, moved, and which was opposed· by the hon. member for \Vvnnum. who was then representing Bulimba: This is the amendment-
" Mr. Ryland moved the omission of ' one hundred and fifty pounds,' in line 9. with the view of inserting ' two hundred pounds.' Under this Bill the minimum eompensa.tion for death caused by accident was £150, and the maximum £300. In New Zealand the amounts were £200 and £400, and in Western Australia the minimum was £200. . . . He thought the minimum should be £200 and the maximum £400."
In the division that was taken on the amendment, the name of the hon. member for Wynnum does not appear in support. That is one little item from the past to show that hon. members opposite have a wonderful
rHon. W. H. Barnes.
an:!.Ount of assurance in making ::,taternents of this nature.
During the whole of this debate it would appear as though hon. members opposite wer0 the only section of the community who knew anything about the land question. They paint a gloomy picture, and tell the people of Queensland that this is the only State which has a land problem. The,v are makmg an attempt to discredit the State. saying tbat t be present bad position is due tn the Labour party being in power. Whcu ,peaking on th<' Address in Reply I said that all W'ls not ·well with the man on the land, bnt tbe problem is world-wide. VVe are not the only State which is facing the problem. In some capitalisticallv-governed countric, tbe problem is far more acute than it is in Queensland. Lot me quote from the " Trustees' Quarterly Review " a :-;peech made by Senator George vV. Norris, of ::\"ebraska, United States of Amcrica-
"That Australia is by no means singular in having to face the problems associated with lack of prosperity in rural mdustries may at once be demonstrated by a, reference to the United States. a country which, from the manufacturing and trading community, is supposed to be in the very sunshine of prosperity. Under the heading, ' The Farmers' Situat,iona National Danger,' Senator Gcorge W. Non·is, of Xebraska, has a trenchant article in ' Current History ' for April last. Speaking of the American situation as a whole, he remarks that 'for '"'vera! years the farmer, whilst practising the greatest economy, has scarcely been able to make ends meet. La' t year the returns on the farms of America yielded scarcely 2 per cent. on the assessed value. This would mean in the neighbourhood of 1 per cent. on the real value.' Quoting statistics relating to other activities, he truly remarks that ' Evervone seems to be prosperous and making money except t.he farmer,' and he utters the a,pparently much needed warning that ' a country cannot long remain in a prosperous condition when the one fundamental industry of all others 1s failing.'"
America, one of the wealthiest nations on the face of the earth, is confronted with the same problems as any other nation. and I am of the opinion that it is not so much a question of land tenure as it is a question of other causes. Senator Norris as~igns three reasons for the position-
" (1) The cost of distribution, including transport: (2) the high protective tariff; and (3) the farmer's surplus of production. Concerning the first of thf''e he shows that freight rates on .\merican railways arc 68 per cent. bi[(hor than they were before the wa,r. and, in addition to this, every one of the agencies operating between producer and consumer is able to levy increased toll on the farmer's product-th<" farmer alone is unable to adequately increase the price of t.he commodity which he produces.''
Later on he says-" Not only so, but the market~ are often
manipulated in the interests of the speculator and others who stand between producer and consumer. so that the fluctuations in price, generally to the disadvantage of the farmer, are notorious."
Supply. [14 SEPTEMBER.) Supply. 6Hl
Members of the Opposition, bv the gloomy picture which they are continually painting of QuePnsland, and the co:nmercial section of which th0·, arc the direct representatives, and w.hich lms done more to exploit the farmer in the past than any other eectivn of the c.Jmmunit". declare that the whole question is one of land tenure. They tell us, moreover, that excessive freights on the raih·:ays help tow>rds the resnlt. and that no consideration is given by the Labour party to the interests of the farmers in any way, On the contrary, I want to tell hon. members that the Labour party study the interests and well-being of the farmers, and give as much thought to the problems facing the primar:: producers as any other section of the community. Hon. members opposite paint their gloomy fiction: they try to destroy the credit of the State for the purpose of gaining political kudos, or because they imagine that they may get some similar advantage. I a.m sure t.hat I shall be pardoned for making the statement that hon. members opposite would be onlv too rleascd to sec Que•.nsland placed in sn~h a state by drou[(ht or from some other cause as would involve tbc Labour party and this Government in difficulties. Thev would not worrv one iota about the suffcr'i ngs of the people so long as that was achieved.
I noticed just recent!:- that Dr. Nott, the xeprmentatin• in the Federal House of RepresPntativcc; of the Herbert electorate-one of the most fertile territories in Queen"la.nd, where 75 per cent. of the sugar of the State is produced-is prepared to vilify this State in the minds of people in the South.
The SECRETARY FOR Pc'BLIC' WORKS: Did you see what he 'aid at St. Kilda?
Mr. C. J. R', ,\X: I have w·nrthing here to quote to sho ,- <he 1;ype oi this man who daims t.o be a I•' laical leader in this State. He addressed a meeting of the Australian \Yomer:'s Kational League. Dr. Nott, M.H.R., represents one of the largest sugar districts in Queensland, and should at least be loyal to the State, instead of prejudicing the minds of the people in the South. The whole of the people of this ~tato are anxious to stabilise the industq in order to give the man on the land a decent living. Dr. Nott •s reported to have said-
" Comparing the politi"al history of Queensland with that of Victoria in the last tweh-e :·ears, D:·. Nott said when the Labour part.y was returned in 19H Queensland was in a sound financial position."
He is wrong there. He f:O('S on to deal out t·he same old tripe about the rail ways, and amongst other things said-
" For every £100 of revenue received, £78 Os. 6d. wa, being spent. Among other public utilities, butcher shops were established by the Queensland .Ministry. but the graziers refused to supply meat to the shops."
Has that- happened in Queensland? Here is a man who pretends to be a responsible politicia.n making a statement of that kind. He says further-
" To overcome the difficulty the Queensland Ministry bought several sheep and cattle statJons."
I do not know that the State Government bought sheep stations. They own no sheep stations. He further states-
" The Minist-ry established State fisheries, coal mines, n..r.;;;cnic n1lne, and ta.nner:ie~,"
I ha,·e vet to learn that the Govcmment purchased tannerie,. I think ''ne hon. mc,mber opposite deplored the fact that there were not sufficient t·annerios in Quocnslar>d to cope \vith the work offering. Yet w,o have Dr. Nott tolling the people in Melbourne' that the Governn1cnt have purC'h~1scd tounPric · Ho sa,·s further-
,; The onlv enterprise that has madL a profit is the State hoteL There is m• (•thor hotel allowed within a mdius ol 25 miles." ·
That is the piffie Dr. Nott and others of hi-. part.y a re continually nreaching in vn rio~t .. parts of Australia. The Gm-ernment dtd Pstablish a State hotel in the Dabinda arorr. but there are hotel:3 nearer t:h~1n 25 rnile:-. The hon. n1ember for 'y .vnnu·11 \Vf!S respon~ siblo for piloting the Sugar vYorks Act of 1911 through this Chamb0r nnctio-:dly prohibiting t.lle establishment of hotels in that area. a~nd that Act is still in existence. I-IcrP we have Dr. Nott making a 11 sorts of wild statements attempting to destroy the credit of the State. and at the same time cbi:nin;r that he is out to protect the intcrc-ts cf the pritnary producer:-;:.
Dealing with this wail about land t ·nurc. T would sug-gest to hon. melllbrrs opposite that it. would be much better if thcs· debated the question on right prcmisPs. It is a policy that is viewed di81pprm·ingly hv hon. members opposite and the big financial imtitutions backing them outside. The frech0ld tenure
of land concedes financins a free [3 p.m.] right to w·:ploit land t.o the utter-
most. That is the onlv reason they arc concerned about; but it 'is not a question of tenure with the Government. 'With them it is a qucst·ion of cnntrolling the land in the interests of the State, and keeping it out of the hands of groups of financiers. \Ye find that certain banking institutions have set. up a boycott in certain parts of the State in connection with the lPaschold tenure. though it does not follow that in all instances they arc not prepared t.o advance money for developmental purposes. I know of parts of this State where the certificates of title of allotments of leasehold land have been placed in banks.
::\Ir. \YALKER: Do you own anv freehold up there? '
Mr. C. J. RYA1\:: The hon. member ask0d m<> that question before. I will show him before I finish how the value of land mcreases in connection with freehold.
:Wr. CL.WTON: Answer the question.
11r. C. J. RYAN: When I was "''ked a similar question the other day I said that I have been paying money for 1nany ynar:-; in connection with a certain piecP o£ land, nt>d I rnay or may not own freehold.
A GovERN3IExr MEMBER: You have not got it yet?
Jl.lr. C. J. RY AK: I may not have it yet. The position is that certain finaneial institutions set up a boycott and attempted to rnake the leasehold system unpopular. It is to their interest to do so: but I know of certain instances where they have taken the certificates of title of blocks of leasehold building
Mr. C. J. Ryan.]
620 Supply. [ASSE:\TBL Y.J Supply.
land, and have made pretty good advances upon them. I know that, because I wa' interested.
I will give the position in connection with the sugar industry, taking tho Cai,rns district a6 .an example, and I will connect my remarks with the statement that to give a certain 'cction of the community the right to exploit freehold land is not an ach·antage to the Srato or to the individual other than the pe.rson controlling it. It is the enhanced value that the people I have referred to are after. It is that side of the question that thov wish to exploit. I have soon a farlii sold for £8,000, the commission on which would be about £225. It was sold a second time for £10,000, the commission being £270 approximately. It was sold a third time for £12,000, the approximate commission being £330. Within two voars that farm was sold three tirnes, and onO agent rerCived as cornmission in respect of those sales £825. This is the point I want to emphasise: In the last analysis who is going to bear the brunt of that extra £825, provided that the farm "·as \vorth £12.000 to the purchaser? Is it not the farmer? It does not matter what happens. the extra stamp duties and commission must inflate the value of that land, and will be passed on to the final purchaser, who has to bear the burden. I saw another instance of a farm which Y as sold thrPe tim0s, fii·st at £9.000. then at £12,000, and a third time J.t £15.000. That farm was less than 80 acres, and the commission works out at £975. Yet hon. members opposite contend that the svstem of leasehold is unfair. It is the system of land tenure that is crushing those farmers. The over-booming of land values is a bad thing for any industry, and it is a bad thing for the State. The only thing of anv use to the State is the value that comes from the land in primary products. I know that as individuals we aTe all speculators; but let us be candid and realise that bv overbooming values and creating ftetitious' prices we are acting detrimentally to the sdtler. J\frn come in with a few hundred or a few thousand pounds and purchase land at thesE• high prices, and tlw extra costs of commission and so on n1ust be nasscd on to somebodv in the fmal analvsis. The only thing that matters in a Stat,;such as Queensland is to have our land values reasonable so that men going upon the land can produce something from that land and receive the full results of their labour. \\'hen thev have to pav a heavy intere't bill to private landow'ners thev have no chance. I am vitallv inten•sted in 'the progress of the sugar industry, and so long ago as 1917 I compiled numerous records of sales made through the Cairn.s and Ingham districts. Things happened as I forecast, and thr land was 0\·er-boomed. I believe it would hav<> been much better in such an area as Babinda, where there is one of the largest sugar mills in Queensland, if the whole of the land had been on the leasehold sntcm. We wonld not then have had the sp-ectacle of men paying up to 15 ner cent. for moncv. In some isolnted cases thev pay more than-15 per cent. Thev are pract{. calh· forced into the hands of private moneylenders and have to sacrifice themsdves. when perhans the_v are producing thousands of pounds' worth of produce from their farms evprv vear. That is due to the svstem of lancf t0nure. \Vhen the central milh were established I believe the people respon.,ible for the establishment of those mills had in their minds' eye the fosterin:; of a system
[Mr. C. J. Ryan.
which \vould allow the small farmer to prosper. As the years pass we find that a few n1en arc gaining rnore and n1ore control over those areas. That is to be deplored, and is not in the interests of the State, although it may be a good thing for those· few individuals.
Honest criticism is desirable, but, when criticis1n based on false prerrli"rs is carried on in this rhamber we can hone to make no progrc'3s, and v~ry little notice will be taken of Parliament.
It is just the ~ame with m;r railwavs; H~n. members opposite have cnbc"ed the Go\ernment because of the loss on the rarlway·>, but tbev give the Government or the Railway Dct1artment. no credit for attcmptmg to do the right thing for the people of Queensland. Tt is pleasing to note, howe\'CI'. that some of the people whom hon. members opposrte. arc supposed to represent are at lettst a_ httlc bit honest. \Ve know that our railwayshave a tough proposition in front of them as the result of bad administratio?. m the, past, by the lack of proper supernsron and the failure to understand Queensland thoroughly, and it is also due to hstemng to people who were :prepared . to. spend . a little monm· to have railways bmlt 'lJ certam districts. ,
Mr. KIKG: You have had elc,·en years to remedy that.
:\Ir. C. J. RYA:"i': 'Ve cannot root up railwav lines. In my electorate we. have motor-cars competing against the raJ!ways for the simple reason that. when the railway towards JI.Iillaa Millaa was bomg constructed, a junction was made at Tolga for the purpo~e of fostering a township at . th~t place m opposition to Atherton, and It JS rumoured t.ha t m one,· changed hands for the purpose of enhancing the value of land CLt. Tolga. with the resuit that to-day \VC have. the spectacle that people comin~< from 1\fJ!!aa Millaa, 36 miles a\\ay, leave the r:uh:ay ]me 17 mile;;; from Atherton, cross over LJ.:l car, and transact their business and are ready to go home by the time the_ train geto in. That sort of thing happens 111 man_v places in the State and is a contributing factor to the ]o"s. on 'the railwavs. The Labour Government at all times 'are prepared to give cbllC('Ssions over the raihvay.:; to as~ist in<?ustrv in everv \vav. It was rather amusrng, dt;ring the" Pleot-~on ca:npaign, to hea~· the Leader of the OppositiOn, together :nth _a nurnber of aspirants for posit~ons rn thrs ~"hambcr, conden1ning the <1dn1iuistr_ation of the Raih·ay Department. and sa,·mg that the railwavs should be made to pay. 11y late opponent \,·as quite an htimnble man, but he \vas verv much interbtcd m the log industn· and he did not realise that the Labour~ Governtnent were giving hln1 a con~ ce,sion in his industrv in the haulage of logo;. On the Atherton Tableland wo have a soft \\'oods reserve far greater 111 area than any in any other portion of Queensland, and the timber industry is a ver_, Important factor in the progrc's of that district. . J_nst in one item alone the Government are g1vmg a considerable concession to that industry. That is in the difference between the muchine svstem of computing the weig-ht of logs as a'gainst the present system of takir1g th~ superficial feet as the basis of charge, . If hon. members go to the trmible of workmg out the difference, they will see that. there is approximately a 20 per cont. concess10n to the timber people in that district in that one
Supply. [14 SBPTEMBER.] Supply. 621
item. Yet ir:dividuals condemn the GO\·ernment lot· not making the raih,a~-s pay. If the rajhva.,. s were run lr,: a. s~·ndicate on commerciaf lines. those logs would be put O\'Or a weighbriclg(e, and would be charged at so much JlGl' ton. To-clay that is not the c·ase. One factor that contributes to the los-, ort the raihyavs in that district is that heavy, ernpt·y carri~ges have to be hauled over the range in order to bring logs back to the coast. Private enterprise \VOuld inuncdiately arrangE) to Jun-e that lms put upon the people. That is one item. There is another £nature in connection with the railwa·.s which it is well for hon. members opp.osite to undPrstand. They fail to take into considr-ration that for rnanv vears th,~ro was a ~~tion of thf' comn1unify ~v:hich \Va~ giving a bonus to Quo·;nsland to assist to make tho railways pay, and I llOW rnfer to a larg-e s0ction of the ralh. av \York0rs. The\· fail to give credit to the ·present Admin.iotration for cndblYouring to rcn1cdy that \"\Tong.
I ··hall now deal with the wages, conditions, and hours of work of the railway employees prior to the advent of the Labour Government. Prior to the advent of the Labour Govcrnrncnt the running men were working under a certain set of conditions; tlwv were not paid overtime on the same basis a.s it is 1vid to-day. The clerical staff. no matter how man:v hours they worked durrni" the week-and I have known men ln railwa",T offices and on stations \Vorking up to fonrtec n and fi ftecn hours a cl a v·werc not g~"iting any extra remuneration ~for it. Hon. members opposite do not seem to realiee that that was a subsid~.- given bv the employee.. to assist the Gove'rnment of the day to make Pnds meet. That was not right -it \Yas an injustice, I have taken out son1c fi.gurcs in counection with this n1atV'r, and I find that in 1914 the position was as follows:-
Engine drivers-Per day.
s. J. 6th claos, first year 5th cla's for n<'xt two years 4th class: for next two :years 3rd ,Ja~S-sJ for next t-wo years rnd class, for next t"\VO vears l::t class, n1axin1nm ra,t~
9 9 10 6 11 3 12 3 13 0 13 6
The number o[ drivers in cccond class shall not exceed one-third of the whole number of drivers emplo::ed. Position of second class driver onl·.· available as vacancies occur, and aft€r serving at lcaBt seven years as driver.
The number of drivers in fn·st class shall not exceed one-fourth of whole number of drivers employed. Position of first class driver only obtainable as vacancies in that grade occur and after serving· at least nine years as driver.
The· difference in 1926 is that a fourth-class driver gets 18s. 6d. and a first-class driver 21s. 10d. a day, and there is no restriction on promotion with regard to length of service. prO\·ided the driver is giving general satisfaction.
The same thing applies to firemen, whose wages have been considerably increased and their overtime rates improved. In 1914 all time worked over a total of ninetv-six hours a fortnight was paid for at the ni.te of time
, and a-quarter, and Sunday work between midnight on Saturday and midnight on
Sunday was paid for at the rate of time and a-half. You see the difference again with the running men in 1926-
" All time worked in excess of fortv. four hours in any one week, or tirrle worked in excess of eight hours on five days of the week, shall be paid at rate of time and a-half. If over twelve hours on any ono day such time thereafter shall be paid at double rates.
" Time worked in exceBs of four hours on the short day shall be paid for at time and a-half for the first four hours and ihe balance at double rates.
" All Sunday work shall be paid for at rate of time and a-half up to twelve hours, and thereafter at double rates."
The same set of conditions .appl;, to guards and other". These were the injustices whiCh a big section of the rail way ernployeC's \n:-re under.
\Ye find that, prior to July, 1915, junior clerks got from £42 to £78, clerks from £100 to £300 and over. and typists from £42 to £100.
'' Clerks \Yf're not pa.id overtime unle:-;s t'lnploved on pecial \-vork, \Yhen t.hcy \1 ere paid at the rate of time and a-uuarter for the first two hours overtinAlc. and tirnc and a-half thl'r(ja{t;:l'. ,.
[ make those cum pari· ons for the purpose of drawing the at.t"mion of members of the Opposition to the fact that no GoYernment haYO the right to nvoat their emplo:;c<s to the C'<:teut to which thev were swcat.ed in the-se• days. Because the Labour party have been responsible for giving the employees of the ,State a fair deal, the' are being critiC'i~ecl fur not rnaking the 1·ailv ays pa.;. The figures l have giv·:'n rcprc:-:cnt a considerable item, and criticisms "hich do not. pay any regard to them arl' not fair to the co.nrnunity at largl\ ~tnd it is onlY right that atto11tion should Le drawn to the real facts.
Anot-lwr subject which hon. member'· oppo:-ite are frequc11tly bringillg before ns is that of production. I lHIYe in n1y possession L'leciion literature \Yhich \Vas circulated during the last campaign. and which set out that- b2· greater production Queensland's railwa;.'> could be made to pa\. I believe 1 hat we do want more productron, provided that that production is controlled. What is tht~ nse of our producing article: for \Yhich we ha Ye no market? This year our sugar snrplus is not going to be so great as it. was la 'lt year bnc<.LU'Ce drought conditions prel'.tiled in some of the sugar districts; but the fact remains that where th, gro\vcrs have not a certain amount of cane t.o put through the mill they will individually be aliected prejudicially. Conditions are much better in other parts of Queensland, where th·· growers in the rain belts consequently reap the advantage. It. is a strange thing that, by gro,ving 80 tons of cane, a man may get more than if he grew 100 ton· : but that is what obtains under the present set of circumstances.
The sa1ne remarks about over-product.ion apply to butter, and nobody knows that better than the hon. member for Cooroora. He knO\Vo Yery well that there is overnroduct.ion of butter; vet we find hon. member~ on the other side cont.inuall:· telling the people and the Government that thev should open up more land and sell more country.
~Ir. G. P. BARXES: And export properly.
Mr. C. J. Ryan.J
(j ,., -)UPf''Y· [ASSEl\IBLY.j Supply.
l\lr. C. J. RYAN: Unfortunately we are not able to compete in tho export market against. the products of other countries which have low wages and bad conditions. It is the dutv of any GO\·ernment to see that the men already oettled on the land get. a fair deal before thPv rush others on to the land. In mv electorate we have manv thousands of acres of land to be opened up, and I am going to be quite candid about it, whether I please all sections of the community or not, by saying t-hat I feel for. the man who. is, already settled m some portions of that rhstrict contending with bad roads and other handicaps. I think that his proposition is very difficult under present circumstances. \Yh: put. other people on the land when these conditions surround those already there'?
Perhaps it pleases the commercial section of the community, such as small shopkeepers and commission agents, to open land for s0ttlement; but it does not necessarily follow that it is in the best i-nterests of the State to rush people on to the land in a· willynillv fashion. :'\o Government should place people on the land without carefully scrutinising the possibilitico of production, and w<cntaining the pro,rwets of dealing with th0 product of succr,,ful cultivation. I believe many of the failures on soldier settlements were due to the anxiety on the part of Governments to clo something in the interests of returning soldiers. It would have been far better for the State and those on the land if a little more attention had been givP.n to the matter; but there was urgent need to place the soldiers in a position to earn a living, and the State Governments w~ere stampeded into placing them on the land without careful regard to the nature of the soiL That was a mistake, And I said so at the time. It is no use placing people on the land if it is not suitable for the industry they are attempting- to establish. f have heard the wail from the Opposition about people deserting their blocks, but I would like hon. mcmb<'l's opposite to show me one spot in Queensland where people arc d<>serting good fertile land.
::\Ir. MOORE: I could show vou a dozen.
1\Ir. C. J. RYAX: I do not believe the hon. member could show me one place where settlers arc dc,,erting g-ood fertile land capable of production. If they are leaving in the numbers that the hon. member for A ubigny suggests, then the country must be horribly poor. There is nothing wrong with people leaving poor country.
Mr. MooRE: The pear grew on it. and, as they could not clear it. they forfeiter! it
1\Ir. C. J. RY AN: I know what a pricklypear selection is like, and I. too, probably would walk off a prickly-pear selection. Poor land will always keep you poor.
Mr. CoRSER: Like the Deerburrum land.
:Ylr. f'. ,J. RYAX: I admit that, perhaps, the Beerburrum land is poor.
The 'TREASc;RER: You try to forfeit it, and they will f1ght you.
1\Ir. CoRSER: The soldiers will not f1ght yocl if yon try to forfeit the land.
1\!r. C. J. RYAX: vVe have the mournful wail of the Opposition that tho Government are not svmpathetic towards the people on the land and those undergoing hardship; but at least some of the associations with which hon. members opposite are connected
[i11r. C. J. Ryan.
arc propar2d to give a little ctec!it to the Govcrnn1ent. for the assistancl~ thro.,, haverendered. This 1s a tclegrarn frorn ~ orth Quoemland-
" The decision of the Gonrmncnt to allow the benefits of the rebate on the traffic of starving stock and fodder, irrospectiYc of the general incre,-c in rail-way freights, \vas the subject of apprecu:~tivc comnlent bY the exccutiYC' counc1F of the united Grazier ' Associa lion of Queensland at a recent meeting. \\'riting to the Comn1issioner for Raihvavs. the executive officer of the Ci-razicrs' Association Mr. Coldham, said t-hat he had bePn req{testcd to convey through him to thePremier the appreciation of his counciL Ho a•surcd the Commi<,·oner thL action of the Government at the pn'ser:t time had been of material botwfit to many of the graziers of the State."
This GoYernment arc in syn1pathy with alll people y,·ho are in need.
It ·was rather amusing to hear the hon .. mernbN for '•Yvnnum to-dav saving that he belicYcd i:1 a<;'~isting the i11ini~1g industry. He wailed about the losses on Stale miniug ventures. I\Iy m0mory takes me back to• a period a few months before the \Yar when a deputation came to Brisbane from Chil· lag-oe, representing private enterpris0. and asked for a loan of £30.000 or £40.000 for the purvosc of assisting thern ov0r a period.
I want to sav to these great r3.30 p.m.] friends of private enterprise that,
if they had afforded the Chillag-oe Company that assistance and thus assisted private enterprise, Chillagoe would have \Yorked throug-hout the whole pcnod of the '' ar and would have shown a prof1t.
::Ylr. O'KEEFE: Hear, hear: That is right.
:\lr. C. J. RYAX: Throug-h the unsympathetic trcatrrwnt by the friends of private enterprise Chillagoe . became dead, and remained dormant durmg- the pcnod of the \var, when it might have been producing metals to make munitions of war.
Mr. G. 1'. BARNES: Don't forget that the Labour GoYernment came into office in 1915.
:VIr. C. J. RYAN: The deputation waited on the Treasurer of the dP" prior to the
-war, and, if the assistance had been granted, it would have tided the company over the next few months, and when war br_ol,m out they would have been in th"' posrtion _of eYery other mining venture m Australia. ff that accsistance had been granted, hon. members opposite would n?t. now be cr\ticising the Government for g!Vmg that mme a little assistance.
I hope hon. members opposite will b~ a little more cheerful in future when dealmg with the f1nancial position and resources t;f the State. A visitor coming mto th1s Chamber or reading the ne\vspapers would come to the conclusion that the State wa& in an awful wav. that it was in a had position from an it1dustrial viewpoint. that the whole of the State was in the throes of a great drought. and that we. ~ad no chance of recovering our former p~s~bon. _The a cloplion of that type of cnttcrsm !s bad f~r evcrvbodv. It is bad for the torler who 1s !nok~ng for his day's wages jnst as ~1uch as it is for the man who has an interest m some commercial venture, or for the farmer. In~ my opinion it is clanger_o~1s. for peopl.e to practise that method of cnttc16m. It desoroy&
Supply. [14 SEPTE~IBER.] Supj::ly. 623
the possibilitie3 of people coming into this State for the purpose of starting industries, because they are painting a picture that is not real. If I did not know the State as I do, I would probably have taken the view that many outsiders have taken through reading the utteranc~s in the public press which reprint the speeches of hon. members opposite. I have no wish to advise hon. members opposite, and I have no desire to tell them what is right.
Mr. MOORE: You want to slobber over the Gonrnment all the time.
Mr. C'. J. RYAN: I do not. No one objects to criticism of a sound and construct! v<· nature, but one does object to statements which misrepresent the position of the State such as hon. members opposite arc making every day of their lives.
GOYERK:IIEXT l\IE}JBERS: Hear, hear!
Mr. C. TAYLOR (Windsor): After listening to the hon. member who has just resumed his scat, I am satisfied that we have t\':o. optimists in this Cham:ber in regard to m1mng matters. The losses incurred by the Mines Department in indulging in metalliferous mining in Queensland are largely responsible for the huge deficit which exists 111 Queensland to.day. While believing that every encouragement should be given to legitimate mining operations in the way of assisting prospecting parties and others, I am one of those who consider that it is not one of the functions of the State to invest the money of the people, of which they &re onl0• the trustees, in mining ventures, as has J;reen done during the last twelve or thirteen years.
The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Why don't some of you make the speeches you macfe on the platform during the election and deal with Mungana? •
Mr. ::\IooRE: We will deal with Mun"'ana when we come to the Mines Estimates. o
The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order !
::VIr. TA YLOR : I am not here to deal with JYiungana. I am here to give expression to my opinions in regard to the Financial Statement, and show one of the factors which has contributed to the tremendous deficiency facing the State at the present time. The hon. member who has just resumed his srat said that we on this side of the Chamber -defame the State of Queensland.
Mr. HARTLEY: Hear, hear ! Quite true.
Mr. TAYLOR: Mr. Pollock. yon know, and ever;,, o!her thinking man on that side of the Chamber knows, that that is not true. \Ye have never at any time defamed our Stat.e b:,- any speech of ours; but we have not failed to offer criticism on th0 administrative acts of the Government during the last ten or eleven vears. It is absolutelv incorrect to say t.hat" anything we have said has been to the discredit of Queensland. No Administration that has over had the control of Queensland has done more to discredit the Stab: of Queensland than the Socialistic Administr:Ltion of the last eleven vcars. The present party in power arc the. on0s who h: ve damaged the credit of the State of Queensland. \Ye on this side have donA cveryt.hing possible to uphold the credit of our State. \V" are Queenslanders and Aus. tralians, and know what Quee11sland is
capable of, what it has done in the past, and what it is capable of doing in the clays to come. At the same time, we do say that the reckless administration of. the finances of Queensland is responsible for the present huge deficit with which we are faced.
Mr. FOLEY: You have not been able to convince the electors that that is so.
Mr. TAYLOR: Unfort.unately we have not yet been able to convince the electors. I quite admit that, though, according to the Sydney " Bulletin " of last week, the majority of the people voted for us. The " Bulletin " took the whole of t.he figures from the returns supplied by the Government, dissected them, and proved that we had a majority.
::\1r. HARTLEY: Why didn't you get the people to let you come over here?
Mr. TA YLOR: Unfortunately by the present. distribution of seats throughout Queensland we have no chance of securing possession of the Treasury benches; but, in my opinion, the time will come when the people will realise that their best friends are on the Opposition side of the House, and that their greatest enemies are at present sitt.ing behind thG Government.
Mr. HARTLEY: You must expect Queens· land to go mad.
Mr. TAYLOR: The hon. member ha• been mad quite a long time. I consider he is absolutely hopeless.
Mr. II.\RTLEY : It is all right so long as I know it. ·
Mr. TAYLOR: Unfortunately you do not know it.
The CHAIRMAN : Order !
Mr. TAYLOR: If you knew it, you would ~ce a doctor.
The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. member should be addressing the Chair, and I hope he does not accuse me of being mad. (Laugl!ter.)
:\lr. 'I'AYLOR: I was drawn off the t.rack, ::\1r. Pollock. Throughout the recent election campaign the Treasurer and those associated with him stated that the Opposition were out only for a balance-sheet.. and were concerned about nothing else. There is no man in this Chamber more anxious t.o balance h1s ledgor than the present Treasurer. The hon. gentleman is making frantic efforts in every direction so that he will be able to present a balance·sheet which will be in the interests of this State.
Mr. CLAYTON: Then why did he try t<> saddle this side with the balance·sheet?
Mr. TAYLOR: I am endeavouring to show that, while the hon. gentleman endeavoured to saddle the Opposition with th& desire for a balance-sheet, he himself is. very keen about the matter. Reading through the Financial Statement it. is very difficult to view with equanimity the financial position of the State. Had our revenue sufferedin any shape or form during the last eleven years there would be some excuse for the deficit of nearly £1,000,000 in the public accounts which is presented in the present Financial Statement, but the reverse has been the case. The revenue has more than doubled, and has been more buoyant duringr the last eleven years than at any other period during the history of Queensland. Yet we
Mr. Taulor.l
624 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppt?J.
arc faced wit-h the poPition that last financial yc•ar we finished up with a deficit of over £500,000, and the Treasurer has promised us a further deficit of £170,000 for the year ending 30th June, 1927. ·
The railwaYs have been introduced into this debate quite a lot, and they have received a good deal of criticism. I do not know whether hon. members have l''<">ked into the figures submitted by the Treasurer; but he himself tell,, us that the railways tire going to show another deficit for 1926-27 of probably nearly £1,500,000. Those arc his O\Vn figure's. l-Ie estimatn'l 1o receive a rcyenuo from the railwavs of £7.943.5-!0 and he estimates an expenditure of £6.510,092, lcaYing an excess of re-venue oyer expenditure of £1.433,448. ::'-low if vou take the 1nterest on the railways ns bring the same a8 it was for 1925-26--£2.578,541-wc havr a rlr•Hcienc;- of £''.,145,093. The intPrcst -charges on our raih, ays this vcar will probably be mything up to £200.0.00 or £300.1J~0 more than the Hgures I have quoted. Sure!•· ihat is a matter that should receive vcn· ''erious consideration. as the whole of th(, deficiency on the railways has to be made up bJ the taxpayers of this State. It is all yc•r.v well hon. 1nernbcrs con1ing here and saying that the railways should not pay. I arn tired of saying in this Chan1ber 1hat after the railways haYc bL)C'll runni11g- forty years and thP" arc still non-payi11g pru positions it ]s timP '"c took a ''pull.'' 1£ the railwa-,,s hnd hPcn con~truct0d Oll1v a few yf'ar8 ago, WP n1ig-ht he D blc to nndcrstanll tlw reasons for the deflci<'ncy. I suppose the railwa\-..;; coi-it the State ~ornr,Yhrrn about J.:60.000,000: but. if \YC h:td to build them at present da...-,- co~ts, the.'· would probabl,cost us ..890.000.000 or £100,000,000.
The SECRET\RY FOR MINES : Tlo vou know tlwre has been )o,;s o:1 the ·\'ictorian railwa:;·s?
ML TA YLOR: Ho·1· nmch: The SECREL\HY FOR :\1IXES: ,£182.0u"!.
}Ir. TAYLOR: There is a trcmcuclous on{· crv in Yictoria over that cimall loss of ,ti82.000, but we g·ct a loss of £1.800,000 and keep on smiling. I do not think it: is fair for the Railwav {'ornmissioncr to be saddled \\ ith the intorest on cost of lines which arc not opened. \Vc want to know just exactly where' the rallv>a:-s arc paying and ",-dwre the aro not payinf, and it \Yould only b~~~
fair thing that some credit ,hot1ld b' given to the Raih;·ay l)epartrnl'nt in connection \Yith unopened linC's. ThP ~Iinistcr must know that in Victoria thev have closed down some lines. The, ·,(cc nn possibility of them contrilmting· to the l'l'YeHuc of the State, and tlwv shut them dnwn. ~
1fr. O'J(EEFE: Arc :;-uu adYocating closing railways down?
Ylr. T AYLOR: \Yhcre we have been run!tins~ raih,'avs for fortv or fiftv vr~arR and we ·cannot s-e~ any pro:spcrt of 'de\·clopmcnt hking place along those lines we are better without them. If there arc any prospects of dew•lopment, I admit we must continue to l'un thorn.
During the last few years another form of traction has come into competition with our railways, and so far as we are able to see that form of traction is going to increase and become a bigger competitor of the railways. I hope that no further railways will be built in Queensland which will not justify
[Mr. Taylor.
tlwir being built. It is time that we took a pull so far as railway construction is concorned and confined ourselves to budding lines which are absolutely real national n'ccc·,jsities.
Mention has been made about political control in connection with railways. I do not know to what extent it exists. but I would like to know who is responsible for the expenditure of tens of thoueands. of pounds at the railway statwn m Ipswich. which has never bel'n completed. Platforms haYc been built and excavations made there. and the \York has bcl'n st.andi1Jg un1tni~hed for years.
Th<' SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDcSTRY:
Tht> Torv Government are responsible for that. -
Mr. TAYLOR: You have to Hnd someone to blame.
Then again, in eonnoctio~ wit-h tho railwa•· work which has been earned on at Mayne Junction, therP were buildings . erected t.hc re which were absolutelv unoccup10d for years. Someone is responsible for tl1at kir:d of thino- If it is the Railway Commissioner. h< sh~uld be found fault with; and, if it is the fault of the Government, the·; shouhl bear tht> blame. At the present time there is considerable activity at Mflync .Juncbon. a.nd the whole of the land v hich has beep r •daimed b.\' the Railway Department IS lH'ino· hrono·ht into nsc bv tllf' d,-,partrnent a~ faA ~as po;;;iblc, but the fact that b?ildings <HP put up and not used fDr :vcars .n~dlCate that someonP is to blame for the po.»twn.
Then iherc is another matter which means politi< ,j controL .;t the .la.st two electwns certain instructions were Istmcd Y~-"It.h rP.~~ard to taking- the votl"; of the railway men. \Vho i~suPd thoo::c instruC'tions '? \<Yn'-' it the Railwav Commissioner'! I do not t'1ink so. The tal(inv of those votes cost th<' State thousands of pounds. eycr~· penny of which co.ulcl havf' b.:>f'n saved. 'That 1~ vyherc poltt1cal control is earning in in connection with our railwavs. and this should be cut out as far a~ posSible ~nd our raihvays given a chance.
A good deal of talk \vas indulged in with regard to the recent referenda proposals. While 1 am personally pleased that Qnei'nsland has majorities in favour of the proposals and ftvc of the electorates elso vot0d In favour of them while another one ncarJ,. did so. it is a matter of great regret to me that the whole of Australia did not vote for the proposalc. There may be some hon. l!1Cmlwr, here who were not in Queenoland or Australia at the time. or who may have been to:1 young "-hen the incldc•nb I rl"fcr to took plac'e. Prior to Federation the great pi:o· tcctivc State of Austraha was VICtona. VIctoria built up a tarifi wall which enabled its secondary industries to be firmly estab· lishcd and to get their roots well dug- in. 1)ntil the time of Federation New South \Vales was almost entirely a freetrade State. The great leaders of J\'cw South \Vales in those davs-the late Sir Henry Parkes an.d the late Sir George Reid, and afterwards Mr. \V. l\1. Hughes-were all freet.raders. 1'h<':~ fought for their freotrarle principles, and kept ="' cw South Wales practiCally a freetrade State. 'l'hc other States were what I would call moderate protectionist States; but the fact remains that Victoria-and I happen to ha.-e been a Victori<l!l-bui!t up that hrifi wall, with the result that it could
[l± t:JEPTE;\IBER.] Supply. 6:25
supply uot only the whole or the requirements of its own people but a large proportion of tho"e of the other t:ltates. When federation ~an10 about, the people of Victoria v.;cre so secure in their trade that, althoug.h the tariff walls between the States were broken down, they were able to retain their tra.de. 'the.~, have it to-day, ::tnrl it was only on account of what I call the sellish spirit of the people of Victoria that the referenda propo;;a]s were defeated the otlwr dav. They are not federal. 'rhey did not exhibit the federal spirit in any shape or form. They were afraid that, if t.he first question submitted were carried, their industrie' were going to suffer, and I am prepared to sav that probablv home of their industries would have suffered to some extent. But it would have put us all on an equal footing. and given us an opportunity to establish those --,econdan industries which arc so ll(·ressary to this State. Whore are we to find the greatest enemy of Queensland and her sugar industn? \Vi thin the la·ot week or two the ;}IelbouTne "Argus" has been saying that i~ ~.ronld like to sec: the c~n1bargo re1noved. The futuro of the sugar industry in Queensbud \;ould have been absolutely stabilised if Australia had voted "Yes," but under the pn?>cnt conditions it is ahrays going to be imperilled, and we shall h<tve to fight every inch of the wav if we want to retain it and keep it a souncl progressive industry.
liir. C. J. RYAX: That applies to Dr. Nott.
:\Ir. TAYLOR: I have nothing to do with Dr .• '\ott, but I believe that he will do his part. I am a Queenslander and an Australiau, and I want to see the industric", of this State in a sound position so that they 1vill be able to maintain themselves and prO\·ide the we:~lth which is so necessary to en<tble us to carrv on. ·when the .Prime ~1ini>Ster's namo is V mentioned in this Cham·bcr mv friends on the other side endeavour to bcli'ttle him as much as possible. It cannot be done. If there is one thing of which • -\ustrulia has every rea.son to be prond, it is her posocssion of her prc~ent Prime ::Ylinister. He has done three things during the last month or two which sho,v the big man he is. Those three things were thcee--
A UOVERNMEXT ~IE:\IBER: The Deportation Ace.
Mr. TAYLOR: 1\o man who obeys the law:-:; o: the country need be afraid of dt>po!'ta-1 ion. X u n1an nred be afraid if be is playing the game; if he is not and he is endeavouring to be a law unto himself, then he has to be dealt with. \'\hat are the three things \vhich the Prime Minister did" He appointed the Labour Premier of South Australia to the Migration Commission. He could have appointed one of his own followers to the position, but his choice shows the bigness of the man. He was not out to appoint someone on his own side just because it suited himself and his part:/. No-he appointed Mr. Gunn. What else did he do? Has it eYer been known that a Premier or a Prime Minister, when he contemplated taking cer-. tain action, has conferred with the Leader of the Opposition with regard to his intentions and with a view to seeing if they could come to an agreement? Yet the Prime Minister, w.hen he rea!iBed the great need of Australia and wanted to introduce his referenqa proposals, consulted with Mr. Charlton. Surtely that is the action of a big man! He need not have consulted Mr. Charlton, but he did. He was anxious to sec
1926-2 n
that the right and proper the interests of Australia. tion those two men were mcnt.
thing was done in On the first ques
in absolute .,_;;-ree-
On the second question they were not agreed. What was the thir.d b1g thing the Prime :Minister did? Whom did he appoint \;hen he established the Federal Arbitration Court'! Ile need not have appointed Mr. Justice Booby, who had been a prominent Labour man all his life.
Mr. CARTER : He was not a prominent Labour man when he was appointed.
Mr. TAYLOR: I am not in a position to sav that, but I do know that :\fr. Justice Bt~ebv was at one tirnc a Ycry prominent rr1-an ~in Labour circles.
The TREASURER : \V e nt'ed not ha ,-e appointed ~Ir. Justice ~Ia.cro~::.;an. ·who "\Yas to be your leader, but we did.
Mr. TA YLOR: I am not saying anything about that appointment. It was a b;Jlendicl appointment, and I compliment the Governrnt?nt on making it. I have not heard anyone criticise that appointment.
The TREASLRER: \\ ... hat i~ yout· argun1ent apropos of?
Mr. TAYLOH: If the Prime ::\Iinister had been purely a party rnau. he would not haYe made those appointments, and he would not na,-e consulted Mr. Charlton.
The TREAScRER: If I could induce the hon. rnembcr for Aubigny to agree with rn~,r policy. l would consult him every .clay. (Laughte,r.l
.Mr. TAYLOR: You arc not likely to do that. \Vhcn he agrees to your policy SOlllP
thino· >vill be Yerv radically wrong. Hou. rncn~bers opposite~ are continuall~,T trying to belittle eyorything- the Prime :Minister mav do.
I;1 his Financial Statt>ment the Treasurer makes rderence to tho per capita payment,, but he knows pedcctly well that the Prime :vlinister made an offer to the State Prrrmen . ,md tlwy disputed the figures supplied b)- the Commonwealth officers and doubted then· au!hcnticitv. Then the Prime ~llinistor suggP~ted tha·t the Pre1picrs _::;.;hould F'canlill 1-'
the figures to ascertain thc1r correctness or othenvjse.
The TREASURER: InYestigation proYed that they were \\TOng.
Mr. TA YLOR: I do not know how the horL gentleman prayed the;v vvere \vroEg \vhen ne did not accept the offer.
The TREASURER: \\" e had the meaJB of rroving that they were wrong.
Mr. TA YLOR: If the State Premiers wen• so anxious to do the right thing, ·"', hy did thev not make 'ORle counter offer to tho Prime :Minister?
The TREAS"GRER : Do you oYer concede a principle tha~ you do not bc!iPve in for the sake of securmg a better offer?
Mr. TAYLOR: You are tr)-ing to drav; me off the track.
The TREASURER: I am not. ·we l,e!ieved the action was 'vrong. and it did not n1atter how generous he was in his offer to us.
:\fr. TAYLOR: The Premier, did not take the action which I think they should have taken at that conference in a.n an endeavour to come to some satisfactory arrangement.
The TREAS"GRER: vVe did not put ourseln~s up for sale. That is the fact of the matter.
Jl[r. Taylor.l
62() lASRE:\lBLY .J
Mr. TA'iLOR: The Treasurer knows vcrv well that you n1u~t cornprun1isc 111 thc88 tnatters othenYisc you will get no\vhcrc at all, and a ·GoYcnnnent 1nu~t cmnpron1ise all the time.
The TREAq,CHER: Tho Prin1e ~\linistcr dropped tho per capita prcposal. Ee did not cou1pronnse.
::\lr. T_-\ YLOH : As one hon. n1c1nbc'l' on this side stated, there is a sih·er linin[~ in the Financial StatelllL•nt of the Treasurer, and that is in conneC"iion vvith our Ulliortunate State enterprises. The Treasurer toid ns quite plainly that, as soon as it i3 po~sible suti~fa-:·torily to get rid of State cnterpri~·,es he intcuds to do so. It is a great pitT.· that they were ever ('ntered upon. It wa> pointed out to the GoYerrnnent clca.rlv and ddinitcly by member.- on side ~f the C'harnber tirne and tinto again what they rnight expect ,vhen they indulged in the-:,e enterprises. ~0\Y the Governnlf'nt realise that, when ,,, e pointed out the difficulties and dangers \:hich \vould confront the Governn1cnt in connection \vith State f'nterprises, \\·o ·were looking ahead.
Mr. PEARE: You condemned all State enterpri:)c.,-thc State IHsuranec olRc:c a11d ev0rything else.
l\lr. T~'\. YLOR: \Ye did nothing of th'c kind. I have ahva"",TS believed in State insurance. but I do n;t believe in it being a moru)polistic institution. I believe in State insurance in the f:;une \,,a v .ns I beliPve in a State Savimrs Bank. f believe that the Govcrnrnent are entit1cU to enter into the insurance businl ,~,"
Th0 TRE.\8l.:R,ER: Do you believe in con~isten~..:.Y '?
At 4 p.m.,
j\,Ir. ·wEm (Jlarpl!orough). one of the panel of Ternporarv Chairmen rclie\·ed the Chair· rnan in the c~hair. '
~\lr. 'l'AYLOR: The hon. gentleman has evidentlv not done so, or he ~~-ou1d ha\ l. yo\ccl irt a different v;ay the other day.
I YCl"' pleased to sec the reference to Commonwealth Loan Council in the Financial Statement. I am sorry that the who!<' of the States arc not assoc;iated with the Lmm Council. That is a bodv which ~l1ould haYn corne into being quit(' cL~ nun1ber of years ago. Hov,'cver, the fact rerna.ins that it has now come into being. I feel quite sure that the Loan Council will bo for the ac!Yantag-e of this State and the associated ~in.tcs in the rnatter of raising loans. rrhere i:3 one n1attcr V/C \vant to guard against in 1he future, and it is this: That maturing loal's of the whole of the States of the Commonwealth ohall not fall due. as has been the case in i he past, in one particular year. \Ye want the maturing dates spread over a r,eriod of years, so that no State will be financially embarrassed when that time comes about.
Hcverting to what I said a few moments ago in regard to the revenue of the State, one has only to rt'ad the " Queensland GoY»rnment Gazette " of 8th September, to obserYe how the revenue of the State in every department shows an increase throughout the whole chapter. The amount received from the Commonwealth for the year ending 1926 was £1,068,37b, while the amount collected in income tax was £2,617,253, as against £2,509,913 in 1925. Comparing the
[Jh·. Taylor.
tlgures for the two 7~cars. the i ncrcases go ou. and the surnrnary is thi" : The revenue !Oi' the twelYc months ended 3Jth ,J uno. 1925, , '" £14,897.256, and the expenditure
£14,880,.289" lca;ving an excess of rc•Ycnue o\·er expenditure for the ycu of £16,967. For tlw voar 1925-26 we find that the rc>VE nne v ·"' £15,599,718 and the c"pencliture £16.154,404, leaving an oxce•.s cf expenditure O\ er rPYCllUO of £554.686. Those are ligurC'~ 'i:;hich should have the greatest po";ibiP ~on-iclcration b;y the Government at this tirno wh"n wn are llUP'',iik throurrh a, H'l"Y trouble us period ,.o far as uo, large o ]C0£
tion of -thn State is con('crncd. Drought conditiol,_, are existing, and: although u cert3:in an1ount of rai11fal1 has fa1lcn over a lar~c arcu of the St.-'tte~ drought condition" -ttll rJi'CI. ai] in the prOdU<._;C-gl'O\Yillg porbons or thl' ShdP, this. rnoro p<nticu1urly. being the \rholr• of the Darling Downs and down a-; far as Ho?c vood. Those arc the district::; that provide a, g-reat quantitT,T of the produce that is '" ant,.-_,J to carrv us on fron1 "f:'ar toYL'al'. T re ~111" do nOt know ho-...v Wf~ arc gu1nt: to ::.11a;1age unle~" that arc,\ soon rcc(_•ivt"' a copiou . ., rainfall.
T trust tlwt tlw anticipations of the Trcasurcl·, althou7h I cannot follow his figures with regard to thn ant.icipat{'c1 deficit, will Le nvt!iscd. I hor10 tl-·,t th•' ci fi· ;, will bo !Pss than is prPdictcd. thou~:h I f< .er thr.t it v.ill Le a great• deal rnore, becau::;p fron1 all rcn<·-~:ts ro_•cei\cd fron1 the Darling Downs the \:heat crop this TT ear is practi( ally a. failure. Eve1n. under faYoHrablc conditione, should a bountiful rainfall shortly be rC<L;\'ed, I do not ~nppo~c that \n3 shall have an thing lik0 oncquartPl' of the a vcrage 1vhc-at crop. It dor..; not affect only the car1·ingc of T,yhe.1_t on tlH' railv:ays to the principal citiL1·' and towns of Qupensland, but it also nffpcti; :-he carriRR;e of goods for the use of the peoph.> in those at- a~.
Tht SrrRET.\RY FOR ~1IXFS: You are a }H "imist.
l\lr. T_\ YLOR: The ),on. gentleman is a ~uper-optirni~t- and is rcspon8ible for the lDss of hulldreds of tl1Cll illlds of ponncls to thio State. It. is a great pit~r he was not pensioned off a few years ago. I-:Iad that been done, the State would now be tcm of thousands of pounds better off. If 1-h< Treasurer tak -,._ 1ny advice he will pen -,ion the horL gPntlernan oif now, and I vd!l Yot,, in favour of that eYer•r ti·1ll"', because I b,Jieve it \Vould be in t.!JP bc,,t interests of Quee>nsland. I am rot a pc·· imist. I have li' eel too lon'i and kn<m' too much about this countrv to· be a pc-:~imist. "
;\>fr. For.EY: You are ahvays whining.
nr. T \ YLOR: l'\o, I lll'ver whine.
The SECRETAR> FOR :\Irca:s : If pc>ple over''" as read your speech the:c- would never come hr'f(',
:\Ir. TAYLOR: M, word, thf'Y \Youlrl; thLV \Vouhl cornl in shiploads, and \Yould sa:v~ '' That is the kind of man who should be in power." I also believe th1t-, if people ov~r''-eas knev. the way the hon. gentleman ::<pent thn revenue, theY \Vc·dd come here in the hopo of receiving. some of it. I hope the Tr<·.•surer will keep a tight rein on the cxpen.diture during the coming year. If that IS done, there is hope for the future; but-, if it is not done, I do not see how we can have ar.:;thing- else hut a very considerable amDunt of unen1ployn1ent and n1isery
S' •. J-·Pl!J. [lJ "JEPTE~IBEH.]
in our State at the end of the _year .. alld tho"' people least able to bear It will be the grc2.tc~t sufferers.
11r. FERRICK8 (South Dri.>bane): . At the rick of being considercJ unduly· opilrn,rstrc I haYe to enJoree the rcmarb of the non. member for Eacham whrn he dcscnbod the word pictuL c painted by hon. member' oppJ,itP as pictures of gloom, and stated that thei-r speeches, ·whether consciou:::.l~,. ?r nuconsciou-1--· amounted to a ddamahon of t-he State.' 'Their doleful and gloomy specchc-. are printed in the nletrol?OlltB:n prcs~ .sup· parting the Tory part~·_ m. big hcadlmes, and the anti-Labour da1hc3 1n thr· southern St·ttcs found leade•rs on tlw distorted telegraphi:._· reports tl:ey rccei'-.o fron1 .Quce_nsland. The result. Is that this State IS bemg contimwtL ly misrepresented in the sm~thern States, nnd continnou .. :;ly adversely affected tbcrchv. Bigger ~inners than hon. lnPnlbers arc th;~ dailv anti-Labour papers o£ Queensland. Tho cfissomination of t!wir anti-Labour .Jpinions and the reprinting of extracts from the so•1thorn leading article'· founded on miSrenrescntation of QuccnsL"'ncl cyents very arfvd'soly affect the State of Quecmland.
stanccb-trying because of the shortage c f rolling-stoel\: and the great dernand fron1 so ruany difl'crent quarters. There was not- one \\·ord of praise fL'!' the e!Iods that have boon and a:ce being n1acl"' bv th(~ Ra1hvay Dcpartlncnt under 3uch trying circurnst.ancL'"· On the contrary \Vt:: haYe the r;stoundrng contention from tho other sid, that- somebody had been l;ctc for his lunch m 'ing to tho _late aYriYal of a tru1n :1.t son1c \\.·tyslde sta~Ion. \Yh<:t a broad-minded cow·cption that _Is of tlte> difficulties under v.-h1ch the Ha1hvav Dl•part·Hwn1- is labouring to-day and has been I, be ~·in~ for the past bvehc wonth" bec~tus£3 of th" ''ant of r_._In 1 lt i, too bacl for hon. mcwl·c·r' all the ti 'lC to be harping on tho le.-.;; on the railwa:vs in an ;'-ndcavour to try to gain :::orne small political advantag<~. and incrdentaJ1y ~aying all ,·(n:t, uf un\Y~rranta.b]e thiu~;s about ihe State In general.
Whilst roali:-.il1g that the financial posi t!on to-cl:• is ono c]pmanclmg careful handlmg :tnd necdin()'" c·Ycrv regard to cautio!l, I ronsider that hon. nlernbcrs oppo~it·e aro going be. onrl th<c !"• ition a!togcthcr when _they ~rwint the ~ituation as b_orLg ··0 bacl financrally. lt is true that for th1s ~'ear and nc"~t yeal~ undoubtedly ti&'ht rPin will have t-o be kont 011 the , of the State. and the Tr'easurC'l' in Statc:1n0nt has ~:.,iveu cyory indirution that ·U< '1 \Yill bo don0. Hon. rricrnbcr::.> no doubt ha..-e rPad the Fina.nrial Sta.tc~n1e.nt, but-, if tl:e~- lunT for a nJon1ent given it anv con>id?r~ation, they ll1.Ust havA realis('d that the deficit of £55-,.686 h.1s b0-n rnore thQn cover·_;d iu cffcr't bv two ~toms-a decrpa:-e iu land revenue 0-...Ying to the drnught. and a doc~·casP in raihva.y revenue c,-...vincr t-o tbn sarnc rea~on, as well as an lnrre~~f' jn raihYay expcndjture to f'Opo with tho Prided rush of trnde at non-pa:·~blo rates as a dirPct rc'tllt of the drought. On top of then·\ hco items, a~. a result of drought condit1on nnd thP aftern1a.t.h. there is a loss cf £08.000 b', the Dep"rtmcnt of )._griculture ,ond Stock "in connection with the cotton g-uarantee:. firm. n1PmhPrs n1tu::t n:~alist~. as the Trv "1.surf'r has rnentionc'-1 in his Statement. that the more stock relief train" run and the more fodder carried to ,tarying stock in drou,-ht-strickcn areas. the greater the less on tho railwa;:s. Tho more milc-:cge run in tho intercs!R of such a national and deserving object the larger the loss and consequent piling up of the deficit, in tho finances of the State. If hon. members \Yho hnYe been criticising the finances had desired to bt> in any v:ay fair in their remarks, thev would not haYc passed oYer the seriousr:esS of th ~ situation under thrf'e two headings. iVhcn we are told that the· carriage of ,,tcl-.:k in normal ti1nes i -, unpayable, how much less pavablc must it be \Yhen large concessions ha'vc to bo made on account of the drought and which were absolutely l'sscntial if the stock were to be kept alive? "'\fter having listened to the speeches of tho other sid0, it is hard to understand how thm--, hon. members could get up one .lfter another and make atta<:ks on an institution like the Railway Department v.'it-hout uttering onP word of con1n1endation or prai:::o for the pfforts made and the >tchievcmonts brought about under such trying circum-
It j true that t.he antic-ipated reYC'11l:l-C is £1~.526,406~and the estimatnd expcndit~Ire for thi,; _v<ar i· £16,700,172 aud that a defien (J:· J;l73,766 is anticipated. While th'' rry011ue i.' largo and tho expcndi~urc huger, hon. n1en1 hers n1ust not overlook the , fact that the higg< _t l1ugbc.1r confronti1!g-
1
\reasnrer> to-daY 111 all the St;•tes of tlw Co;n-1\Jnnv.-., cdth j,. the a11nnal Intc'rC'st on t.no 11ubli debt -...vhich has jnrnpcd U 11 by nearly c£500.000 i,. Queensland durmg; the pnst year. For tl1i~ iinancial year it i::- t stirn, tcd that ;he intf "est payable on the public debt will h' £4.936.1.26-on the brink of £5.000.000 for interect ,done. I want to remind. hon. rncml1crs that this abnormal jtunplng-up m iLo int-erest on th _ public debt of the State, is n-ot altogf'thPr .(/ue to the
uf n1onc,· bcin<.: borrowed; bnt the f<l('tol' is tflc inc1:0a:-.e in thr money ol the world which haCi come :1bout since
che end of the \ncr year'', with the result that c.:onY('rsions of loan:::> , ,·hich {)riginall:: -...verA floated at . 3 per cent., 3~ cent.. 4 pc~ cPuL or 40 per cent. haYc be made at 54 per CL''lt. or 5~ per (f'llL on ar:connt of the .,ftcl" effect' of the \Y.U". During tho four and n-h.Jf years of the wal' hon, mun~)~rs oppo~itt• a11d their rompatriO"~.:l in pob~,w;-;; \YCro jnce~.~,.tntl:;T ho-,>: ling that nothrng mattcrr·d but the \Vc'!'; it did not matter -...yhat followed after thP war; nothu1g rnatrer('(l bnt the ·war. There may Lle a desire on the part of sonH' bon. n1en1bcrs tu forgC't all about tllo war, but they cannot cccapo th0 liability of tlw added cost of the interest bill in this and other States b.v Yirtue of the incre:-·.sed 1wice of 1noney as a. direct re.-mlt of th \vorld 1rar. I remembc!.~ whP'1 the- Go", ernor-Gc-nPral was hc:re .he was rf· ·o•ived in the South Brisl•anc q1ty Hall. Ho gaYe what \\"aS termed a patnotiO adclre>s. anJ endeavoured to Impress upon hi," hr:l.rcrs that they must on no account forg·<>t th0 \Yar; the:v must r0n1cmber the war and all that it stood for. I looH;ed round t.he :_·oonl and ob<;'ervcd the f!Xpn_~""sio~ rH.!. the fcaturt:s of those v~ho v,,•rc In attenoancc from which it appccn-od that they
antcd t.o forget all about the wnr, with the rrsult that tho GovC'rnor-Gcneral's ren1a~~ks in that connr:dion fell vN' flat. I thmk that tho interest on tho public debt. amountim; to nearly £5,000,000, is a yory impor~ant offset against the chargt: made . agarnst Labour Administration that, notwith~tanding the iucroasing revenues, it is difficult to balance the ledger at the end of each hnancial year.
One theme which hardh, any hon. meml-er opposite failed to include in his remarks
Mr. Ferricks.]
628 Svprly. [ASSK\rBLY.J
\vas a 80rt of slor-au repetition to tbf' effect that apparently tht'r1: was jn thi~ 0tatL~ a u>ift to tlw citic·,-thnt peonlc were lcaYmg the country and flocking to the cities. I denv that.· There is in Quec!Jeland no 4}11J.rcciable inrrf_ .,_,c in the population of the rnctropolitan areas at the c."xpcnse of the population of the country, and I will cndc aYour to show on wlwt I ba'e that opinion. It vras noticeable duriEg the election campaign that cur opponents. lHn·ticularl:v in
·the metropolitan area.. were as elos:• ao O}sters regarding the que~tion of inlnligrat!on, bccau::;.p thcv Vi'Cl'C cornplaining a· 10ut
the tunonnt of nncrnployn:lPl!t n.nd ~tatin[': that it 1va-, the rf.:sult. of Labour Adlnini~\J·ation, so that the,- could not v·ith aw degree of consistenc · in the next breath voicP an agit ltion or cry for in1migrntion: ronsequently the~· were very silent about it in the metropolitan area. I suppo:se that in the country they wc .. e cqu:dl"· careful lwousc of the fact that. in the countr:. it ha bPen proved that the aft.~r-tlH"-w·q· ~ slogan. '' I'.toduce ~ Produce!'' has had the bottonl knocked out of it by the subsequent production in this State of Queensland. It is trn<' that the population of Queemland i:; incTeasing. In fact, in spite of all the ills "·hich the Oppo~ition and their "kuo1Y-alb'' outside! attribute to this GoYcrnment and to prcn,·iou-::. Labour GoYernmcnts during th{~ L .. t clcn.:.>n yf·ars. the population of QuC'f'l:sl·uld- -outside the natural inrrea"c of tho exn(ss. 'Jf births on"r dcath~-is incr0asing fastl•r than in anv other State of Australia. lnd0cd. it i~ inci·easing t\1 ice as fast ~~s thP popaln tio11 oL that. State of ·whirh we h(•:n· :-;.o n;uch in this Char:nlH'r--the Stato of \~ictoriJ-notw1rh~trtnding that Victoria has t, ic:- the populotion that QP0Cn,land ha'. ThP'P arc' the figure~ indicating· the incrca;.;e in popula · tlon oubicle th0 natnral inc::0a~e bv l'C',t~on r,f the exce,. of birth~ over dl'ctlb.· :" c1ch State of tlw Commonwnalth, fc•r the . enr cMled 31st DeLCll'hcr, 1925-
Increa ··'::in population. ::\c ,. South \Yaks 10.799 Y ictori ;, 6 837 Qur-01!Sh1nd 13.553 South Austmlia 6.6'1•1 \Vestern Australia 3.13~ Tasmania (decrease) 4.029
Those: fig"ures show that, in spite of all th 1t ran he ~aid abont this State, rwople 1n•.> Hocking- here fron1 c.tlH'l' Sto.t. ~ anrl front other parts of the ,. ndd. ThP inert•.~ · in QuL1 ensland was twice as gre-,t in Vieroria <.~1~.fl greater t11an the inr-rea~:=: in :=-\e''' South \Y .. tlc'. although that State hlls prn.ctically three times the populntion of QuccnslaJcd. l '\.ant to la> particular stro- s on the- figure, for \Vcstorn Au~tralia I a1n safe in ·-aying that no State in the Commonwealth pa,-, for so rnany immigrants cnt(~ring its Oorder.s as \:Vr,;tern Amtralia. For the nast few yc:.trs the irnmigration actiYitie3 o( \'~~ e.,tcrn Australia haye been very pronounced. but the trouble is that. although they arc getting immigrants out. they are not staying there. They are filtering through to the Eastern States, and a good nroportion of tlv m <oYentually find their ":(y to Queensland.
I want to say something regarding particularly this so-called drift to the cities-a phrase which falls so glibly from the lips of hon. members opposite. While I admit that the population of the metropolitan area is increasing, it is not increasing at the expense of the population of the country, as I shall
[21!r. Perricks.
cndcaYOUr to sho\V. rfhe hon. mcrnbcr for Chlev in a previous debate made a complaint that· newcomers to this State froul othLr parts of tho world and from other States y~·prr getting preference of employment HI
tlw Ipswich workshop1,. I do not know about the Ipswich workshops, but what I do :a,· is that people from other parts of the world rtre gettin[' preference m·er Quecmlanders and _-1..nstralians in uOme Government departrncnts, in the tramways. in \YD.reh?u.ses, 1.t1d in the Greater I3nsbane mumc1pal PmplovmenL I do not object to their coming here. JlOr do I object to their getting emplo} · ment; but I say that, if the polic:.- which i:-:. being- iHU'suod is continued for a fe\\ years, we shall have reached a stag"e v·hne. with regard to any vacancies \Vhieh may occur, \Ye 1nay put up the sirrn ''No Quconslanders ncrd apply." Tbat is actually taking place undt:-r our eyes in the mctropol1tan an~a. and I think I sec a n•ason for it. I think it is part of the immigration scheme for those coming here to be fitterl into job' as quickly as possible by those having jobs to offer. \\'lwn a newcomer to Australia. or Queensland is fitted into a job on thP tramways, in a \\ arehous<', in the Greater Brisbane Council crn11loy, or in a Governrnent dPpartnH~n.t. he natnrnllv writes home to his friends m thP old co~nttry saying ·what a 1inc State QncN:s]and is. 1:nn that he " hoppPd " into a joh strait)Jt away! l'\atnrallv, hP would ad,·i~n. his. friends and relat1yc.., to eo are out. f:uggPf'ting- good prospects of tlwir hcing placed, too. I have no objection to an increa::;c in population. I \Y'. lcom0 H. I likP to ~cc nt~'i- corners sPcuring position~. but prpfcrr•nrc should not be~ given then1 oYer ( 'nccnsland!~rs gnd other ~'-ustralians. PPople ·r, flocking lwre horn the other Sta tb. and
cure] th•c,· should hu.ve con icleration. too . ..:\ . .rp ·(.'ut>c:>r;;-;.!audcrs to bP con1pr-1l('d to earn thP1r 1ivin12. h,v cntting (}o-..vn gurn h·cc•, and cligging up thn ooil wh0n there i.: no rnark('t. for their l:1bour, -..vh-ile nc'.:corncrs to th0 Stat0 are to be fitted ini·o th• . • po~itiot1'" I1 app<>ars to me to bn ~ part of the !n1n1igration alTnngenH'nt. Tha1· ~tl'l'ounts for this term ·' "irift to thP citY... I do not tl1ink th0rc is anv drift 1'0 the citr in QtH'0n:·dand. Thr.~" inc-reased population >tronnd the metropolitau area is the reeult of people continual!~· arrivinK from other Rta:n. Sil'Ce the opening of the ::\orth Cr:n -;t railway thcr0 jf' a trnd .. -nc-- for young feJlovTs in the n10tropolitan area to t1ke greater adv·,ntage of the CD~\- a:1d readier 1neans of convt~yancc to the co~lflt.r:, particniarh to the ::'\orth. th:m was the case, when the;, had to make the jonrllf',V by boat. Strange as it may oecm, within the human constitution, eopet'ially with the younger man, there is the belief that going on board a boat to n1ako a journey means a pennanent parting, and the,. are more reluctant to lean' their homes by boat than by simpl~stepping upon a train which tlwv know goes ha ckwards and forwards re:zularl· . I have ascertained that to be the case. I deprecate those bald statemPnts by hon. members oppo,,ite. unless somo effort is made to show bases of their assertions. That is whv I was rather impressed by the remarks of the hon. member for Eacham in dealing with the land policy of tho Government, and the repeated assertions of our opponents opposite who claim that thP land policy of the Government is responsible for the added population of the city. The hon. member for Eacham gave so~e concreto cxamplP-; of the advantages
Supply. [lJ ~EPTE)IBER.] Supply. 629
of lPa,chold OYer freehold. as applicable to the distrjct of Cairns and surrounding districts of Xorth queensland. His remarks app"aled to me very strongly, because I remember in thj~. Chamber in 1910 when the Inkerri1an Estate 11 a· being l'l'··umed, '>>'e advocated that, when th0 estate was subdivided, thP farmc> should be let on the perpetual leasehdd system. The• Labom· party were not in power at that time. I '.vi!! Pndcasour briefl,.· to supplement the remarks of the hon. member for Eachom. by showing ""vhat \vould have been thP ud\ ant age to thu:;~' settler·, on th0 Inkcrrnan Estate if the;,- bad had an opportunity of taking up their sc•lectior s on a leasehold t. nnre. 1\Tany of the men who took up selcdio: s there to ril:- personal knO\Yledge "'CrC lllCll "','\'hO had been Ininjng for years
7 and through being
car··ful had managed to save £300 to £400. The ' wrrc luckv to have done ~o in thos(~ da,_~,i and sho,!der rcsponsibiliti,,s of bringil.l!r up fmn1Jic:" on a \vago of lC:-;. per dav. Y\ tth £300 they would purchas.c £800 worth of land. \Yhcthcr it be 80 acres at £10 an acre. or 100 acres at £8 an acre, the total ,, ould be £800, and incidPntallv the first charge C'xpcnses to thos~ settler~, iu endeaYoming to chase this mythical frePhold \You1d be to part with their £300.
Those who endeavoured through loans from the Agncultural Bank to pay for the clearing of the h1nd had to pay £8 to £12 an acre in those days. ,'l,fter having a fev; acres
cleared thev were entangled in [4.30 p.m.] the interest meshes of the
. ma,chinery dealers. In these cases mtcrest was cnargecl, not up to the extent of 15 per cent., as my hon. friend said, but I < u1 sa:v "'iYith an ab-olute certaintY, up to 25 per cent. The compound lllethocl they had of calculating the interest due on th0 purcha,e of implements from the m::tchinrry a_s-ont in those davs made the rate of interest exorbitant. The result is that rr;anv of theH' men at Inkerman a,re still chaoin;;. the fetish freehold. The trouble is tha~ msteacl of having £300 to start off with those farmers were confronted with tv·o o~ threp bad "·asons and were a,lmost ruined. I say that they are still chasing this elusive freehold, because many of them will be greyheaded before they have their farms clearif they ever do. Our contention is-and I ask hon. rnembe:·s opposite to clisputn our contentiOn on th1s phase of thP qnestiontha,t under the leasehold system that man selecting land on Inkerman would have had his £300 cash in hand and would havo paid an a.mount equal to 2~ per cent., amounting earh year to £20, on his leasehold, instead of paymg np to 5 and 8 per cent. for th0 balance of the purchase price of his fal'm. as he has been doing to the Agricultural Bank or to a private financial institution. He would ha.ve had his £300 with which to purchase unplemonts and stock and would have been a~le to improve his f~rm a great deal better m the early years than he was.
The _oppo?ents of. the. leasehold system state that fmanmal mshtutwns and corpora,tions w11l not make advances on leasehold land. My colleague. the hon. member for Eacham mentioned instances where allotments of land held under the leasehold svstem had had adva,nces made against them bv banks. What about the pastoral leases in" the pastoral areas of Queensland, where the period of ownership is only twenty or thirty years? Tens of thousands of pounds have been
ad,·anccd bv financial institutions on these leaseholds, the improvements, a,nd the period of lease, together with the stock, no doubt, being taken into consideration. If these institutions made advances on improvements and stock on a lease of twenty to thirty years' dm·ation, how much more practicable would it be for them to make advances againet a leac<e of ninetv-nine or 999 vears' duration? There are other rea,sons th;,_n the personal and individual in this matter. I was readjng in the "Daily ~ialr' only as lat.e as last Sunda" an arti('lt::: which forrcd me to realise what 'a great loss the freehold system had been to the Sta,te as a whole. As I read the article my mind went back to the hon. member for Cooroora, who I know is keenly opposed to the leasehold system in land, a,s it had relation to a portion of his electorate. It referred to a gentleman who settled tberP, had made good, and had become vel'.) prosperom. I ask hon. members to listen to what I· as said concerning this gentleman, as they will vc'O the great loss to thP Sta,tE; th~t follov.o the alienation of land-
" He came to the Kin Kin district in 1902 and selected 320 acres for 2s. 6d. per acre. That land to~day is being rented at a rate of £4 per acre per annum, showing hmv va,lues have increased in this ohort spa.ce of tim~. His land in the early clays contained a we>1lth of < edar and beech. He < nt some cedar trees which, on being milled, provided enough timb0r to ceil his house and m~ke his furniture, v.,hile the balance on bemg ,o]cl re.1lisocl enough money to pa0 for his selection."
:Ur. G. P. BAR~ES: That is very different to the other cases referred to.
~,Ir. FERRICI\:S: Thi', 0ntr•rprising g _ntlcrnan, -...vhonl I do not knoW 7 like 111any more 1d1o h;r,~c CDiJle £ron1 the sunthern Statr-;. J'il-..' hP t ·nical of rnnnY sinJilarly succe~ ful E1C~l \Yho.'. -through the -cur~t· of landlordism o-· ft·cphold. \YC'l'C' forr0cl to ( nne io Queensland to 1 1 ke up land undPr ou1· most libcyal t-Tm~. wit-h the result that they are becommg prosneFou~ LrnH~rs. and h<:!,~e notbing good to ::o.v d the Government or the State. I ~m" not acqmtintod \Yi1h the gentleman Jllt>lltiollcd in the p_~ragraph. but I know that between Briobane and ::\' a!11 hour ther0 an' n:an v :--nee( .:;sful farn1rrs y, ho wPre driven here' horn the Korthern Ri>crs of N CY South \Yales and part-~ of ·vi('toria, .,impl;, because t}- ~Y could not get lanrl th0rc. :\o\'i- I suppas; then" ar0 no grc:tcr 0efan1CT'· of Queen: land or people 1norr> anxious to securt' political "dYa!!t;_~g'-·s than thPy. In ans-wer to the bon. n1C'n1hcr fm_~ \Yarwirk, I can say rhat. land nartccl with in 1902 for 2s. 6d. rrn acre• and paid for by the cutting down of oome c .cc!ctr trees is t-o-day being leased to £an11cr, for £4 per acr0 per annurr1. I know Qucemlancl too \Yell to <',JntenJ that this is .'1n &vert:ge di:::trict; I know it is 1nuch aboYc a· erage.
}.It. BRAXD: Arc cattle included in that leasing p:.'icc of £4 an acre'?
::\Ir. FERRICKS: Not that I know, but I kno-..v it is a very rich district.
:'vir. BRA~D: There is something wrong tlH?re.
::\lr. FERRICKS: Had that and other land not been alienated, the Treasurer, instead of bPing troubled wit.h an interest debt of £5,000,000, would be untroubled, and the
Jir. Ferricks.]
6il0 [ASSE::\IBLY.] Supply.
public debt of Quecr.sland would not be of much concern. Had the accrued value from that land, which was parted with ""' freehold, passed into the Treasury, the way of the Treasurer would no\v be co1nparativcly C3.sy. What applies to our country areas applies Pqually to t-he metropolitan and town arcJ,s. During the last election I gave an cc:planation of our vVorkers' Homes Act and ·workers' Dwellings Act. l explained the very liberal facilitie'l given under thoee Acts to people desirous of providing for themselves nnd farnilics. In endeaYouring to explain the , dvantages of the perpctultl leasehold sy·'tem in regard to building allotments. I found thn peopl•c listcninv so intently that I went on to tho perpetual leasehold policy of tlw La hour party :<s it applied to rural and other lands, a::td found them still verv k_eenly intcrcst.cd. I ask hon. men1bers oppOSliC, "·ho say that freBhold js pr-ofel'able. how th0y account for the fact that when buildino· _silcs on the perpetual lea 0"':' bnsis are oficred bei'vecn S(?Uthport and f'oo]angatta. thm'P 1s compet.Jtwn for those sites on the part of hundreds. of people? Those l'''oplc are noi· on a b>ts1c wa<;e, but people who can build oeasido residences. Those are the people whom ono hears dailv in tlw trains upholdino· the free· hold tenure~ polic~-; yet thry go i; droYes foe those building siLs br c=cusc thev sec the advantages to be obtained under the perpetual leasehold s;~ stem. The ad:vantages untlt?r the \Yor kcrs' D~'; ollings _\et are YCrY grr>at. but the advanhges Ull~lr>r the \Yorkers' Homrs Act, whoro houses ~ere bnilt on lea'C, hold allotmenb, are eYPn more libeYal.
Quite rrrcnt1y thP ho:!'L lTIC'rnher for Lorran ~rought 11p this question of \Vorkcrs' d,,?clllngs and \Yorkr~rs' honH , and -;vas answered very full:- and conYincingl\- bv the SccrctJ.rv for,Pubhc \Varies through 'the' PL'SS. So convmcmg \'cas that answrT thct I do not think th(>.rc is any need for connncnt. Let us I(,r .a. rr1on1cnt continue vYith the advantages offered by these two s:v"tems. .First. bY 11o stretch o1 imaginationu haYe Yn~ contmided. as the hon. ~1err1ber for Logan dot~~. ilup-, the:::e are rtYa.l schon1c< The y,,orkers' homm scheme is tho more iiberal ,,ne] supplen-:.~"llts the other scheme, and b,F it' popularit "~ WJ 11 soon becou1e the premi~r J-\ct 0.s r0r:ard.-:. the nurnbor of hous0s err'cfc·cl. If n. pCl.:;on w.mts to borrow £600 und' r the i,Yorke,·s' .D;\ cllings ActJ he 111u~t ha Ye land
1 TI10lH-\-. or
ImproY0ln0nts an1ount1ng to ,£150. in'"}Sj)l'C'tiY<' o' the £600. making a totrr1 capital Yaluo of £750. ThE' GoY.ernrnent ~uppiy the tHlvanC'c rt1 tho rate of 16s. m the o£1. Consequcntlv. ·,:hen hf' l"fC 0 1Ves the £600 from the 11YOrJPrs' Dwellings Board and put: in hie own £150 m land. lmproYem<mis. and cash. th" house goes on: hut, in addition i·o that first pavmPnt of £150. he ha' to provide for tl1e painting of his house at least ever"' fivP 'car~. Sometimes) aceording to the irispL-l'tOrs of the \Vorke-rs' D\vcllings Bo,rd, it is neces~._rv -for it-) prc~ervation to havC' th"' hJusc; painted more fre:.:ruentlv than once cYerv fiYe years. but the avera,~P time is alwuf fi-re ~:ears. TJltimately ~, llc-n h0 go0s into that homo he must paT for fin; insurance and all TCp~ir~. an cl then· of course he p&ys rt rent~ a hberal rent. I admit-on top of that of 13s. 3d. per month per £100 of the mm ad,·anced. 'That i' vorv well. but before he can move he must ha\,o been 1vorth £150. When that Act was going through in 1910 we were then in Opposition, and we endeavoured to get insertnd in the Act a proYi-ion. which is now the basic part of the iYorkers'
DJ r. F' m·ricks.
Ilornes Act, proYiding that a person who could not find two allotment, or who could not raise the £150 necessary, might get a JlNpetual leasehold. vVe wanted the then Government, of which the hon. member for Wvnnum was a member, to broaden the Act to· that F><:tent; but of course our pleadings were in vain. I admit that the \Vorkers' Dwellings Act is a very liberal one. but anyone who will compare its terms with the terms of the Workers' II omes Act will see that the latter is far more liberal. A person who wants to get a workers' home of a value of £600 need not be possessed of the 24 p<rches of land. He need not have the £150 that is necps.garv before ho can go In for a workers' dwelling. It must b apparent to hon. members in thc,;e days of high cost of living, that, if a 1nan is ~ontcmplating rnatrim0i1v or 'vhcn a young couple arc start~ jng out orl lifB's pib;srin1age. it is very difficult for them to rret together £150. T!J., \Vorkers' Hom<e.; .Act~ makes provision not only for them but for more desr>rving cJses. A man w-orking for a sn1all salary ma.~T h ~vc a l_a~·ge f·,milv. and he has no chance of arqmrmg twO allotments of land \Yithin a reasonable cli:;,tanrf' of hi~ \YOrk. IIov. OYf'f, he can g0t a kasc hold under tlw vVorkPrs' I-I omes A er. All ihat he need haye in ordN to get a hon1<: erected is 5 per ('ent. of t.he ya]ur: of the hol'"'O . .and not 20 per cent. ns l.s Il'·l·..._·,;;sary under ihc~ \Vorkers' D·,,~ellings .~.rt. Fi,~e per C'f'nt. of a hon1c- costing £600 con1r-. to £30. He puts clO"'l1 that amount, and the rent which he is asked to pay includes all those tl1inrrs ''Thich are extra charg-0.s under th0 \Voriers' D-wellings Act. Th0 \York0rs' I-Imne~ Act 1nak0s provision ir. the rent pa:vablP bv the tenant for the 5 ]Wl' ecnt. inipr0st and redemption on the lofln, for the C 11rr cent. interest· on th~ <:2-pital valun- ~f the land. :1nd for the fire msuranrc. Pronslon is also made under that Act ,vhereb!· the trnant insure<;<, hir" life ~o tlud, if anything happf'llS t.o him as t.ll0 ln·cadwinner. automatically the house becomes tlw .n.ro-1wrtv of his ,vife and familY. In acldthnn to j hat a lJ rPpail'S Uj1 to thP yaluc Of £2 rrrc don~ at th~ cost of the department. That shoiYS hm,, liberal the tern'' are. and. tf a man has " conplc of allotments_ 0f land of ,,;, boasted freehold and ho duues to haYf'
'l , ·orkCl' 1 S hornP und0r the pr-rp::-tn:-:_1 lea'-P~ hold sv.;;;tctn. the v\'OI'kcrs' hon10s ndtnini;tr~.tion .,:i11 buv that laPel from him. If 1t 1s valued at s~1· o£100, tlwv will clr,dnct that 1 mount from' the cost of the hom0. Thev ,,-ill reduce his debt by that a ·10nnt of £100 qnd crive him a nerpetual ]<>o,r'lolcl for wh1·"h he ";11 pa:v 3 per cent. If 1; 0 has two a1lotments in the course o{ pu-rr~1nse and ~ 11or~ 1inn r0n1nl-rs to b0 nFJid on thPnl. ac;an1 ~,hf' nrhnln~stration will f-llkC' thcrn o.:cr 8nd g:ve Lin1 th0ir Yalnc anfl isqH' ,, 1r.tsn to h1n1. \uv suf'h reduction is a saYing· of 5 per cent.
-in · intere:c-t on that· a,n1onnt for the "·hole period of tvCPntv-ftVf' o"f'ars for \Yhich the rHlY111ents haye to be rnadc. "-hD\Yin:; ho~v intcn"'h· liberal arc tl1C' provisions of th1 · rtlPasure.
It surprised me to see the phase which the. hon. mRmbcr for Logan brought into the cliscue~ion. He said that a man who had got a home under the Workers' Dwellings Act and had a piece of freehold which was :vorth £100 when he built the house would m twenty years find that it woul~ be wort,h £200. if he wanted to sell h1s worker s dwelling at the end of that time. I candidly do not think that by any stretch of
[1-1 SEPTE~lBEH.J Supply. o:Jl
imagination the element of speculation was ever considered when these Bills were being framed. They were introduced to ona.ble workers to get homes, a.nd not to encourag<e land speculation. It is true that speculation is not quite killed by the result of the system, but it has been immensely reduced. and the motive for speculation has been reduced. ·when a man builds a home he should not look forward for twenty or twenty-five years with the view that the land will then be worth £200 instead of £100 as it is to-day. The man who builds a house on a perpetual leasehold will find less difficulty in disposing of his house than the man who builds on a freehold tenure. because he will not have to pay, say, £200 for the allotment. He can onl:-- live on the allotment, and the man who really v. ants a home does not care whether it is leasehold or freehold, but he v. ill be les_; willing to pay £200 for an allotmcnt when he can get the land for £6 a year for all time. A man who goes in for a worker's dV\ elling is really handicapped.
Mr. BRAND: Notwithstanding your companson, i he \< orker.-:. prefer wurk0r~' dv\'Cllings.
Mr. FERRICKS: Judging by the amount of money spent under the ·workers' Hom·es Act since its inception, a comparison will bring home to hon. n1embers the growing popularity of the workers' homes scheme. Here .arc the ngurcs for the last four years-
Aoroc"T ExPJ<:~DED UNDER \YoRKERS' HmiES AcT.
1922-23 1923-24 1924-25 1925-26
£ 9,705
137,451 152,588 216,755
These ar(' figures taken from the Treasurer's financial tables. \Yhen the operations under this scheme were transferred to the trust <lCf'OUJJt fro:n loan fund account in 1925-26 the mnount had gonp up to "(:216.755. ThaJ was thP amount actually expended last vear. This Ye:tr a sum of £3'oo.ooo is set down on the Estimates to be utilised for that purpose showing the growing popularitv of the Viorkcrs' Homes Act. B·: the time "the Act has been in operation fo'i· fifteen or sixteen ,-ears. as the \Vorkers' Dwellings Act has been, ~hcr0 will br~ no conl'parison \vith regard to the number of houses which will have been PrectGd under the t\vo measures. I am not detrac-iing in an:; way from the value of the wo:·kers' dwellings system, though we tried to Improve the Bill as it was going through, but we say that the Workers' Homes Departnl'ent oilers immeasurably more liberal conditions. It is more liberal than anv other scheme in Australia, and it cannot be compared with anv other in the ,. orld to its disadvantage. Something for which we must commend the Government and for which we must express our plc.asure as members on this side do, is that the Pr~mier has keot his c•loction promise that £1,000,000 would be available for thce.e purposf's-£700,000 for bmldmv workers' dwellings and £300.000 for building workers' homeq.
A feature of ths debate has been the rcconnnc '!dation from mo~t unexpected suurces t.h ·t in the n.dministration of thP affai1s d this Sbte those in control · hould look to Russia. ror glliclanC'o. "Sef' \vhat th0 Bol~hcYik GoYcrnn1cnt have don0," \Ye l1ave been told-not in those worde but to that efff,<-t. Only last YC'ar a.nd ! in the vE'ar immediately preccdi;Jg- it. the only argument
which could entanatc fron1 sornc hon. mc:mbcrs on the other side. if one passed any remark n:garding the transfonnation which had taken place in Russia, was the retort '· Bolsh"'vik." That was their whole argument. 1\mv we have tbF hon. member fm· Oxlev "tnd the hon. member for Normanbv quoting Russia, and telling us that thi-s Government should follow their example. \Yhat a change! It shows clearly the colossal ignoranre in which thcs£~ people wero enfolded during the past four or five year". when the.- threw across the Chamber the retort. '· Bolshevik " ! as their stock arf!'Ument-. Then we have tbe hon. member for Toowong ser·ionsly-or apparently sHriouslyadvising the administrators of this State to go to America to see the conditions which obtain industriallv in the United States. It is a marvellous thing t-o me that the Labour authorities <in the Commonwc<tlth could i0r· a rnon1cnt accevt or proceed to discus":,, fro1n a Labour noint of view, the prov"als of the Federal Gon~rnment to* ~end .._L delegation of employers and appro,-ed employee ... tv the other ,ide of the world to inquire into indust-rial affair" there. Xotc that the repre-
·ntatives of the employe<·• must be .. approved" by the Federal Government. The\ wonld not take the nominees of the unions. They wanted to apprm'e of them :--o that 1h,.,v could have their vie\\'S dul'", ... coloured to "suit the employinr; clasF \Vh;r do we need t.o go to _._.\mcric.'l to inve~tigate industrial conditions there' \Ye know that in the l_:'"nlted Stah~··, of An1crica. a wor:secondition oi things probably exists than at an; .. othc·r time in its histor·.. \\-e know that in· t.hp fartori0s of the l'i-.itecl Sta.tt•s thev ha vc child labour to a d2grce never cOiltemplated by thm·" pc~o!lle who hold up industries there as ;1 model for the world. \YP IYho kno\v these things cannot understand v:hy thP unions jn this S-tate could t~ive any "erions countenan< A to the p1·opc"al of the F cdcral Government. I have here an ext-ract from the " Daily Standard," "-hich goes to show that thr> industrial conditions in the l"nited States are certainlv not attract-i.-e fror;l the Australian st-~ndpc;int. It quotes it
>']10.1ker who pointed this out--" From 1906 there had b en a cam
paign ugainst sweating i~1 the clothing trade in Australia. and it had been <tamped out. No one could truthfullv ~ay that s\vcating cxlst.e-r1. in our cond{ti,;ns to-dav. On the ot·hcr hand. in America, according to ' Current Histor.v ' magazine. the American census of 1920 <hawed that at the time 1.050.850 children from ten to fifteen year c. "ere engaged in toil. That wa" 8.5 per ce'lt. of the total children in the United States. EYen that number was considerablY lose t'1an Fo1n0 vcars prcvionsly, the dcCrca~c being due to legislative action. In June. 1924, the ::'\ational Child Labour Council gave the figures of child labour, almost doubling those sho\Yll in the r •nsu3.''
The report further states-" ~\IanY of the children -, 0rc not onlv
belo·w eight vcars, but sornc ns yonni aS .five yc,ars. ';
':'hat wa., ftC, recent as 1924, and, jEdg-inR" fron1 the quotation that I ha.-e jmt ;·cad. these articles in thP "CurrEnt Hi3tOr\-" magazine '11'" worth the perusal of hon. members. \Vhosc utterancEs were these ,._ hich I have juot .-oiced' They are not th'"'' of tlw •· Dail:'i-'· Standard," and the•t are not m~vuttcranr'CS, but they are contained in a
Mr. Ferriclcs.]
Supply. [ASSEMBL Y.J Suprly.
'ne;cch ddi;-crcd by Senator P~arce in the ~.._n8tP in reply to Senator Ban\cll, \\hO ,-;as fatlwring- -this delegation from Aus!ralia. n_nd rnaking a comparison bct\vecn the :ndustrral conditions in Americ 1. and the indmtrial condi1ions in Australia. to the <1c•triment of eonrlitions in Australio. Senator Pc <:rep's 1:epl~- is in much more detail, and, '-' ftcr havmg 'f•en tlw report in the " Dailv :Oranclarcl," I took the trouhk to read hts pC'cch a;;; rcrrortt"d in " HansLn.d." The
cdract quoted from the "Current History" maiiazme \nll repay any attention g-iven to It bv hon. mc•mbers opposite. especially by the hon. mm·:'ber for Toowong-, who sug-gests that Australia should take as a model the inclmtrial conditions in the United States. Hon. members opposite cannot Pxpect to bo ta~.-:f'n spriousl;l if thev nwke thPsc broad ~tfltPn1ent ,, ;Yithout an~7 exp1anation in suppor.t. and \Ylt_hout any argument to buttrcs!". rhrTr conh>nbon~. a~ \VC nlv. a vs endeavour to do wlwn dealing with anv m~tter <.ffectingthn 1wlicy of the GOvPrnrncnt. -
GO\'ERXMEXT i\IE1IBERS: Hear, hear 1
:\Ir. G. P. I3ARNES (H'urwirl·l: In f'X]HT,,-;ing the pious hope that. the Trr•astll'rr would k00p a tightcn0d rein on exp0ndituro. 1hP hon. n-,en1bcr for \Yincbor n1ercl\' "'Pf0SSl1 d tho (·omn1on crv of the ]and. '\e>trly paper ·rith whirl] I have come in c0t1tact 'mphasised that hope. and hn' \L<ecl its ]10\YPr to th~ utmost to bring Influf'nro to hcn.r in that dir0ction. F.>.-pn the "~ailv St:-;IJdard " a \veok or bYo ago t•mpha:•I·.cd that llf'.'P:.::sit.v. (hw can scarrelv take np <1 paper that does not realise tha·t WC' arc~ being eonfronl-cd '"ith a grPa.t danger nnles.< expenditure is taken in hancl. On]': ro-rl:n.7 thf' " Tclc;z;rarJh " in a Y(•rv adn1irablc k'~1ding ariicle ha~ this cornment-
" \Ye hopu that thP 'orno,iti0n ,,-ill hmnrncr horne during- thP financial dcbatP the rPall:v appalling facts of thr· · rtnation. a ne! point out tl10 rwril that IHtht overtak0 Qn0Pn:;;lancl unlc_:s the rncc towards insolv0ncy js 8harpl:v checked.''
Thnt. ;, the attitude of the '' Tr·lc:naph." c•HI rs rcall~- the true thought of am· influcntiaJ paper _in t'te land. The pa]JC'l< that are nnouec! "-,tlJ a nght son· c of then· dut·. dice-lose a dig-e't of the fpelitPs of tlw poopl0, and that 1_H:~ing so it must b, realised trat the~' are.at one ·with the Oppo'ition in tn" matter. lt 1s verv unfortnna!P that not r'nP "·)litnrv Tn0n1l)('r" opposite. ~~ far as I -can T0col1C'rt, has taken cognisance to an:v n;tent of the refll po·iiion of finances. TruP ~he hon. member for South Brisbane made some reference to the weight of interest fallme: upon the citizen, of the Commonwealth ari•inc; out of the heavier interest bill. '
At 5 p.m., The CHAIRJ!AX resumed the chair.
::V1r. G. P. BARNES: Not one thought ha,s been _given expression to b:v hon. members opposrte, except in that brief wav to the matter of finance and the difficulti~s which confront the State. It is true that the Public Service Commissioner a few weeks ago, at the. instance of the Government directed attention to the position of th~ country in thhe words-
" The position of the country has become so serious that I, with the concurrence of the Government have had to send a circular memo. to 'the heads of the departm'ents and the more important sub-departments asking them that, for
rJJr. Ferricks.
this year at least, in the case of resignations and retirements, all efforts should be made to carry on with the existing staffs.''
He went on to remark-" The impending disturbance of finan
cial relations between the Commonwealth and States on the per capita question necessitated sane thinking, cautious action, and wise leadership. The country \:. fl s undcrgojng trying f'onditions. <'specially on account of the preqent drought, the ravages of which were not quite realised except by thf''e who had experienced them. There were hard times ahead, and consequently he asked them not to be too hard in their demands upon the State. 'Don't sow wind to reap a whirlwind,' he concluded."
Those are solid utterances which did not emanate exactlv from the Public Service Commissioner h'im'self, because he ha,d been instructed by the Government to make such remarks. KE~tnrally. one ''ouJ(l_ fePl that an example would be set by the Government in order to bring about a condition of things in keeping with those remarks. Inctend of that ''hat dn WP srP? ,,~('.need not go further back than to-day to wttness where a couple of thousands of pounds. a,s pointE'cl out b:v the hon. member for Toowong, could have been saved by a different arrangen1ent in connection with the retirement of a certain officer. I am not going to say one word against the officer appointed, as he ;, a L:;ost nxcrllrnt nlll.D. hut b0ttcr terrY'l.;: n1·i~rht haY<' been arranged wherebv the old officer could have continued in office for a period ;md the Government san•d £2.008. The old idea was-
" Take care of the pence, and the pounds will take care of themselves."
So far as the Government are concerned it might be-
" Take care of the thoneande. and the hundreds of thousand;; 11·ill take care of thf'm:-~c1Ye.,. ~·
.....-nhYithstaw>;nu: that. do"un:H'nt -j;, upJ. l;y }lr Story, we find at every turn not the slightest indicrttion that expenditure i' going to he curtailed; :vet there is ab~olutc necessity to put the peg in regarding expenditure. and with the least possible dola"'· The Government seem powet·less to withstand any possible demands on them. Ono hears d a strik<e here or there, and of demands being llJPrl''· As ::1 mntt0""' of fart. th ~Te·,t·~t strike ever witnessed in Qneen,land was the strike of hon. members opposite when they demanded an increase in salary of £250 per annum. Their leader was practically ag:rinst the idea. but had to submit.
Mr. HYNES: How m'any members of the Opposition have not taken it 9
::\lr. G. P. BAR:L\BS: Perhaps t-hey will tako it. and ad as thev conceive to be in the best interests of thr·ir con·-,tituento. So far as I an1 coneenwd, I consirl.::_•r what i:-;; tho t·ighteous thing to do in the intC'rcstd of my people and of t!w State. All the c,-idenee points to the fact that there •::as '"' accual F-h·ike arnong~t the support-ers of the Go\ ernrncnt, and the Government had to comply with their rcnue5t er somethin.g \hnlld have happened. No tear~ unseemly ,,trike has h.ken place in the annals of our Parlian1ent, and it was a had example to sot to those out-side. A leading article in the " Courier " a few clays ago referred to condition·' that
8< pply. [l+ SEPTE3IBETI.] Supply. 633
nli&;ht haYc cxi~tcd 2,000 years ago, and s,,i~l--
·• If t"·o orator~ proposed. ono to build hips of ·war and ilF' other to inct'lasc
official salaries, the salarie~ man would h€'at the hips of war rnan in a canter."
r!'hat is prcct.Ically shat 'has taken place here in Queensland.
In Yicw of the extreme >••riousuc"s of the fmanrial position of the Statu it is unfor~ tum,te that the Trca,ur·cr hcs not replied :o the LeadN of tlw Opposition a.ncl othet· l1on. nwmbers of the Opposition in connodion r>ith t.he}r criticism of our financ''-'S. Th" Treasurer did reply to th0 criticism of tho Leader of the Oppn"ition on tho Acldro· .. , in Reply, and a kincl of dialogue took place across the Chamber, \Yhcn r(~fercnc0 \vas ruadc to the eon1plaint by son1c npw~,paper:" rlwt t!w Leader of the Opposition had not k•en granted rm oxt··mwn of t.imo. I shall l'<'ad a portion of ,,-hat took place-
'" The, PRE_JIER: I \vas guinp- to suggest t0 you, ::VIr. Spnaker. that. a< under the ~tanding 9rdc•t·s it is in1po~~1iblc to giYe tn extension of a spPrch ". ithout son1c
hon. _momhc'r losing hi< opportunitv of ~pealon.~· to tn~ ~-\ddrcss in Rt>pl:v. il·. rr~ight ,Jf' <:tdv1:-:able ~or :-~ou to as:k tlw pleasure nf tlE' llousc 1n rC'gard tn nnv hon. mcrnbt'r continuing hj" speech. ~
. " Mr. J\foore: It we.J offorLd, and I de· lmecl 1t.
.. Th.~ PHF.:\II:i<:R: If ","'JU do s.o, 1Ir. f-!.pp.akPr, I I.Yould that YOtt U··f'
y_nT~r di;creti_cn a !~) the; Sl1Cc~-I~ \"'i_h1r_h '" 1··PnHr ch_·ln'Cl' ~d is ;:t:orth ('Ont:nmnc:. (L ,, ght8.)
'· The- Le ad( r of th0 Oppositi0n tourhr_'d nu 1nauy th~::'g~ jn hi:-' sperch. rno..;;t of d•~n1 :no1Y }u..;toPcal, bnt h" mad.· no l'Pi~t'('l1CC' to. the fuhn.·P, rrnd his sprc•ch ~na1nly, f'O l~I:~tf'd of a \Yfl il bf'cansc: hP nad nor ~ucc(, rl'rl at thP CFDf'ral c•lf•ction On<' only ht<s to read ·th1t. spc '·eh tc; c011 ch:dP that the hon. P"Pntlnnan i-; still :-.n~eru1~ as t11<" l'f'~nlt of th0 tlefc ,_t 1>"htch h1s party rccci.-crl at the hands of the Plc"t·: rs.
"~Jr. King: So i~ Qnt •nsland. .. The PRE:\IIER: Thut remain, to be
~"en. At 1c~«1:_ I ft.llJ not. going to 1iY0 m the paot; Jt ts the futut'<' that matters. I!1. rcg::t~·cl to rnany hon. nlCJ.Jbcrs oppo~ ~1tc lh('lr futurp I~ behind thern."
1~h to ia' c up th~ thought-s therein C\ .. prc""'Cd It Is. 11ot that I a'n f!O 1nuch cnnce~·ned n bout t1v.~ _:;;l_ig·ht Lletecl out to the ;~each~ of th:· OpposttJon. but I rder to th•l .a~t· , L,at this s!dt' of thP Hous0 and tlw pcop1~ of Qucen~lnnd. too. join issue ,vith the 1reasu;-cr wJth 1'0.'. rd to one of the ar~ lc1cs. The Trc-asu1·cr "I am 110t ~rOJ~,£:;' t~ Jjy(: in_ t~H' . i}~at. !11.·· •: be! article ~n. l,m h1s favour. "It i> the future tnot matters : th'lt m •:· bo article No. 2 in h1:· fa.-our. But I _hold that it is the' manY acts. '?f aclmtmstra.bou that connt, although the I !·.,a~Hrc·r \YanL tD "Jet tb,: .Jead pa:::t bur;; It;;; dead." ·
"\Icn:dv~rs on this ,..jdo arc not [!'Oin.{r t(: [ llo ,, the past to 1x for..-ol-tcn. s'o fa~· rl_<.;
'r :~re r'lnt.;ornrd. th' coun 1 1~·; '."'.;11 uot. bP .CitlOYlTl'd to forg-et the patt. The cc'untry \;·il! ~1, forced to liYe t:he past ngain and, ~~:hll· t. it. rnay be a desirable thing to bur-·; the
unfo_rb.In?.tclv \Ve cAnnot do ~o, hfcau:"c: ~~:-;t Ifl _vnt_h u<:; to-day a!1d is going 1o
Le vnuh us In 1ts effect"' for rnony a day H!
thP future. Thr past ha.s do>:ct~,1L'd itself :-:J llluch into the future that th'3 h\ J nrc ir1, C'l 1arable. The works of the Goyernn1cnt f{Jllov. them. anc1 will continue to follow thNn an<l will follow the cmvtrv. Queensland "·ill for mnnv a drrv f:c,,] the unfortunate influence of [~n cxp0ndit·l~l'C \vhjth has hc.._1 n too grc:, t, and cxperimPnts -.,-.~-1lich hav~~ hcen m:tdc. The fDture ic hin~r-r) and ,T, ('ightcd by past cxpPrirn(_:,nt~ of irrcspon~ilJl(' ]L ;l:Jators. lt i- the fui:ne ihut IJJattcr~. _:nd I \rish to en1phn··isc a fe·,, thing.s 1hat mattrr. Let us make the fDtnre thank· ill] to es lJy our legislatiYe arts. If yo·1 take thl· public debt for +he fir>· fifty-six Y' ,trs nf cur hi~torv. You fincl vnErseH hc1 d with '' debt of a· li£t1o o.-er '£5\000.000. With that debt th rt' w·:h crrta.i11h· l1andcd over c~:-:"'ct.;; whi(·h rnorf' than rC.prl ~·_,rnted the c·,;;wmliture. But the present aspect of the :-ituat~oL is appal1ir~g o1ving to the fDct that 1 l1e U OY{'rnn1t:!lt arc pcrff'\ tl~,- 11Rht in thPir tn•ah.wut of the fip~nc;s of tlw eo '1trv. There is. no indication of uny attempt beillg n ,do to grappk with the pocition. That is cyicJent in this Clw1nbr>r. \Vc h:vc not had n sinQ'le nH'lnlJPr on the Go\-f':·:nrrlc;nt Ridt> t:d<i:inV up anything- Eke the uthtudf' that _-Lo·1ld l1r' taken un ln conlH'rtio:n v ith th1~ :-:r•rio~I:s lllfl Her~ that concf'rn ll'> to-da v. J-Io'v ,]jfferl'nt all this is to tll" ronrlitim:. 'vhich rnlt·d :na1r~ vears a~:n ":dl"n onr f'·iends on the other ~id·,, \VPr<~ 'ln OJ,positinn! In 1913 . ''erordi11g to '' Fiarr,·:rd.~' png(' 1210) 2.\1r. TheodorP said-
" ThPrt• S(~Om~ t.o be a Q'l ,lt •1,·sire on 1he par1 of the · th,, Troa-.'-tll'C' to blink in rc~arcl to th<' mattr-r o:t loan PXJH'ndi"tur-: and t hr• rnattcr of a sin~-<i:ing fund nthc r cff('ctiv~~ rlCfll!~ of 1 )ublic dc·'nt in due cour ,_.. s0c1Tr
to L0 :-c;tl~flcd tu ~:o en a~;cl the {l('bt to outE~·e c1~tirt l.\· the publie that haY(' LPen c-~i 1bli:.;hed bv
n1:--1n-:; of the loaH."' .,,hich bcci1 Thcv ~:'C':'1l to hnvc ~1o to
!~-:·~ ]H~blic in~lebtcdJL of. . ;n land. llH•;; are ~,·ell cnong1l sat.IPtJC'<t to sh -PP~ ont. ·cf thrir n pon-·Ihi1ity~ ;_',nd to <tllo fnturr: :ou :1cration::' to take up t~o :·,nrdcn-n. ll!Gst LPl{~·cn·'ron:-~ and nnchtH'It<lh1e. and, \Vithal. nn· i.:;;c policy, and t 1uit.• U'H:iCCf'•.:o;.ary.''
'i'L ·u. a~' reported on pasr·--, 33 er£ '' li ard" f nr thf' Fan1c yPar. be ~a id-
" Then" is no do11bt thnt the intf'rest bnrdPn in connection with thr e"::pcndittrrf.:: of loan n1onc~r i:·; borne to a large extent ln· the prim~ry produ .. crJ and to an Pn(>r:nou~ cxtout 1)v the T,,orkrrs of the ~~.dtc, svho do no( 0njoy the b('JH fit of the e:-~'JE'ndituro of loan rrlollf'Y in the
lC r·rOportian 0'3 spccu]n.i:OJ <.lncl i.n-Farnlf>r~. primn:r prorlaccr~'·
'' arrc-carnrr:;:; ,}·(•nera11v are not the p._·oplf' ~·ho hent:ftt most b~~ the cxpendi-1 ure of ]oan m one~. A great nunHJCT of v·ag-c-carucrs do cortainly rr-t tcnlporary f'nlplo.\n1cnt frorn the cxpenditnrc of loan ttlonc)--, and to that cxtpr\t·. they b0n<•fit, but it iF- on]v a sn1al1 bL·neftt t~w-, re(·, inc-. bccaus£' when there is a large C''\:))£'nditure c£ loan rnone, · the price of land gaP" up and rents ln~ re ·~se, and the co;;;t of liYing i, inC'rcascd in r,Lher \vays."
In rrcldition to :\1r. Thoodore. other hon. tnclTlbers on the Govenunent side w'tto were then in Opposition took up exactly the s~me att:tude. but look at the condition of thmgs
]IIr. G. P. Barnes.]
634 Supply. [ ASSEl\IBL Y.] Questions.
which exists to-day 1 \V e had a public debt of £56,869,000 in 1914, but it hrcs now been incrpascd to £102,450,000, which is a huge sum of money, and an accumulation that practically startles one. Some £45,000,000 of money has been added to the public debt during the last eleven years. \Vhat will the conditions be in another two years at the rate we are going on? That will make thirte~n vcars of the Labour Government's rule. and e shall then probably have doubled our public debt from ,-hat it was in 1914. What an astounding thing it will be to have doubled our public deht in thirteen years ! The Government arc not blamablP for the high rate of interest on loans, but the interest bill has increa>ed from approximately £2,000,000 to £5,250,000, which is a huge sum of money, whilst the per capita debt has increased from £82 9s. 2d. to £113 Ss. 6d. In ten years the old Liberal tnrty-which was accused and charged with undue loan expenditure-added to th0 per capita debt by £3 17s. 6d., while this Gove:,rnmcnt during their eleven years of office have inereasoc' it by £30 19s. 4d. Yet t'wy condemned the old Liberal part0 for undue expenditure and the piling up of the country'~ d0bt ~ 'rhc seriousness of the po.o.;i~ tion arises from the fact that 'I c arc incro'lSing our debt beyond what we shall ever be able to 0\'crtake, and it is time, if it is not too lo ie now, to call a halt rr ,;arding these m a tleril. In another fow vears we shall be f<lc- to face with a huge debt. At the rat.o w0 are going, in ten years the public debt will ccrtainlv r~rtch £150.000,000. That is an astoullding, prospect. The Treasurer. judging by his public utterances. is seiz,xl with the necessity of curbing expenditure, but y,-hat "o '"ant is to see 'vidcnc•'S that the expenditure is being cm·bilcd and a ,.,ane outlook taken on these matters, which o.re of tran~cendent importance to the ('ountry. At tho rate we are going the per capita debt will b~ £150 Ycry soon. and in another two years the public ciebt will be just double what it was in 1914-15, and the Treasurer says-and I agree , ,-ith him-th,,t it is the futuro that matters. I tal-e the!t as a cound utte1ancc, and, if the hon. gcnt 1cman and the GoveTnmont goner .. tlly appreciate the ou:standing importance of the position, they will realise that a halt must be called to the unseemly u:pondituro which has taken phcc in many dirPctions. A halt ,,hould have been called in that direction, for example. in r: gard to one department the other d:w. A more unrighteous expenditure ha' never been incurred by thic GoYernrnent.
\Vhon the GoYernment took office the railways had just shov;n a profit, and, although for the previous 0loven years they hacl not shown a proht, at anv rate, the loss \Yas not· a very great one. If )·ou take out the figvre.s for the cloyen years prior to this Go-,·ernmcnt's term of office, von will find that the doflcit:·- on tho railways amounted to £696,454. whereas in t-he last eleven years the deficit has amounted to £14,220,000. Then, take the loan expenditure on the railways duri1w the -a me [lPriods. At the boginni11g of- thi,~ GovcrrnnP!1t's terrn of office it arnounted to £37,332.930, whereas to date it is £57,709,407. Of the £56,000,000 of loan monev which had been expond-•d to _the end of 19i4-15, 75 per cent. went mt.o ra1lways. but of the amount spent since then only about 25 per cent. or 30 per cent. has gone into railwav& so that it is evident that large sums of mo;1ov have been 1ni:"-:;pent in 1nany direct.ions. ~
[i1!r. G. P. Barnes.
vYoll might I draw attention to our financial condition goncra.ll:--- It is an appalling thin~. It is really amazing. \Ye have got to thG point where we cannot go on as we arc going. Take the l·'cpenditurr- for l'!evon yrars from all sources-revenue, truf't funds. and loan funds-aLe! VOU rc.~liso the ext-r,l· ordinary figure'! with" \Yhich '"e arc faced. The.-· rf'quire a g-reat deal more explanation than has boon given. The gross expenditure of the previous Gm-ornment during elm-en vears amounted to £83.689.274. whereas in the J,,t eleven yccrs the expenditure of this Gm-ornment has amounted to £213,855,123. Is it not t-ime that some consideration \\as given to the position? Cannot any hon. member on the other c,ide perceive just what the course of the GoYernmont is go in!! to be? :\"o.ithcr in the Financial Statement. m which \Yf' have a reference to cut.tin<'r out enterprises which have been a failu~e. nor clsowh~r? is there any real grip of the financial pos>bon. During the last financial year the Tr.,aqucr anticipah•d ,, surplus of £11.000. but. instPacl of that. he came out with a deficit of ovc1· £500.000. This -vcar h~ ('l_peds to vo to the bad t-o the extent of about £170,000. ACNJrding to t]JP rulr of t hr-'e. the chances a rr that '"' shall go to 1 he bad this -,ear to the extent of about £1.000,000. That is t-lw nosition facing u> and the Ca hi not and the Treasurer should at ··very turn keep down expenditure. The Treasurer ,honld ;~and to his guns, no matter IYhrn demands for expenditure u1av be made upon hin1. ·
At 5.25 p.m.,
Th: CHAIRMA:\': L~m1er tlw provisions of the Sessional Order agreed tu b,, the House on 29th Ju!v last, I d1all now 'leave the chair and mak~ my report to the House.
The Ffousc resumed. Tlre CHAIR>IA'-f reported progress. The •·osumption of the Committ:·() was
made an Or_-ler of the Dav for to-monow. The House arljournccl a,t 5.27 p.m.