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Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER 1940

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

172 Diseases in Poultry, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions

TUESDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER, 1940.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. E. J. Hanscn, Buranda) took the chair at 10.30 a.m .

. \PPROPRIATION BILL, No. I. Assent reported by Mr. Speaker.

QUESTIONS.

SERVICE COSTS, PUBLIC DE•BT.

Mr. ~IOORE (Aubigny) asked the Treasurer-

' 'What was the cost of the public debt in 1939-40-(a) interest paid internally, (b) external interest, (c) sinking fund, and (d) exchange and other payments~"

Tile TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer, replied-

" (a) £2,071,132 13s. 9d.; (b) £3,180,014 7s. 2d.; (c) £673,020 lls. 6d.; (d) £915,412 6s. 8d. ''

LOAN RAISINGS, 1939-40.

ltlr. MAHER (West Moreton) asked the Treasurer-

" ·what new loan money was obtained in 1939-40, showing sources and amounts respectively, and the total~''

The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) replied-

"State's proportion of Commonwealth Loans raised for the States ..

Domestic Issues Instalment Stock from Com

monwealth Savings Bank

£

2,200,000 20,000

483,000"

FAMILY INCOME REGULATmNs, RATION RELIEF.

Mr. NHUIO (Oxley) asked the Secretary for Labour and Industry-

'' How many persons suffered reduction, refusal, or stoppage of ration relief assistance under the Family Income Regulations in 1939-401''

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY (Hon. T. A. Foley, Normanby), replied-

" To obtain the information desired by the hon. member an examination of the file of each relief recipient throughout the State for each week in the year would be involved, owing to the continual fluctuations in family income, and in the casual earnings

Questions. [3 SEPTEMBER.] Death of Mr. J. P. Keogh. 173

of the applicant. It is considered that the information that would be obtained as a result of such an examination would not wanant the cost of its preparation, nor that it would be of any material value.''

MILK FOR NEEDY SCHOOL CHILDREN.

Mr. :NIMMO (Oxley) asked the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock-

'' Has any action been taken or is any intended to carry into effect the Government's promise of free milk for needy school children~''

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) replied-

' 'Full investigation has been made into this problem, and it is not considered necessary at present to initiate this direct assistance. Necessitous school children are provided for under social services generally. The principle involved has not been abandoned.''

:ilir. Mall er: Why do you gull the people at election time with false promises~

RATION RELIEF AND CoST OF LIVIXG.

}Ir. NIM:MO (Oxley) asked the Secretary for Labour and Industry-

'' 1. From what date ·was the rate of ration relief increased to 17s. per week (Southern division, No. 1 district), and what is the present rate~

'' 2. vVhat was the cost of living index figure ('C' series) at the date in question, and what is the present index figure~''

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY (Hon. T. A. Foley, Normanby), replied-

" I. (a) 31 May, 1937; (b) man and wife, 17s. per week.

"2. 1937-839; 1939 (December quarter) -876; the increase is thus 4.4 per cent.''

REPORT OF MESSRS. McCRACKEN AND GEORGE

ON BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL AFFAIRS.

Mr. DART Premier-

(Wynnum) asked the

'' 1. Will he make available to hon. members the reports of Messrs. McCracken and George on the affairs nf the Brisbane City Council?

'' 2. vVhat was the total cost of the investigations in question~

'' 3. ·what amount has been charged to the Council~''

The PREllHER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) replied-

" 1. It is not the practice to publish reports of departmental investigations.

''2. £345.

" 3. £345."

Mr. Nimmo: We have the report, anyhow.

Tile PRE:iliiER: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. When questions are asked and answered, hon. members opposite should not be permitted to make insulting interjections to those who answer the questions. The procedure as to asking questions is laid down in May's ''Parliamentary Practice,'' and it is within the discretion of Ministers whether they answer questions or not. Again, it cannot be expected that questionhs should have the right to the answers to questions that they desire, If hon. members opposite continue to behave in that manner the Government will have to consider whether they will regard their questions seriously. (Opposition interjections.)

:ilir. Maher: Reil, Hitler! The new dictator.

The PREI\UER: Well, you are not the dictator, anyhow. You will never be the leader of the House.

lUr. JUaher: Why should you be?

:ilir. SPEAKER: Order! I uphold the point of order raised by the Premier. I confess that I did not hear what remarks were made after the answering of the question by the Premier.

:ilir. :Maher: We shall not be able to interject soon.

:ilir. SPEAKER: Order!

PAPERS.

The following papers were laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Report of the Auditor-General under the Supreme Court Funds Act of 1895 for the year 1939-40.

Report of the State Government Insurance Office for the year 1939-40.

The following papers were laid on the table:-

Fifty-se0ond annual report of the directors, Queensland Trustees, Limited.

Order in Council, dated 22 August, 1940, under the Supreme Court Act of 1921.

DEATH OF MR. J. P. KEOGH.

MOTION OF CONDOLENCE.

The' PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, JI/Iackay) (10.43 a.m.), by leave, without notice: I move-

'' l. That this House desires to place on record its sense of the loss this State has sustained by the death of James Patrick Keogh, Esquire, member for the electoral district of Merthyr.

"2. That Mr. Speaker be requested to convey to the widow and family of the deceased gentleman an expression of the sympathy and sonow of the members of the Parliament of Queensland.''

The late Mr. Keogh was first elected on 26 April, 1932, and he was subsequently elected

174 Death of Mr. J. P. Keogh. [ASSEMBLY.] Common Law, &c., Bill.

at the general election on 11 June, 1932. He served throughout the 26th and the 27th Parliaments, and during the present, the 28th Parliament, till August, 1939. It was well known to members that the late Mr. Keogh had been ill for a considerable time, and that that illness was clue to injuries received during the Great War. Mr. Keogh was one of the originql Anzacs', and also served in {)ther theatres of war. He was very badly gassed, and that greatly affected his health and brought about his death at an early age. During the whole of his lifetime Mr. Keogh took an active part in public movements. He was an ardent unionist, and gave service to the union movement. He was elected to the Brisbane City Council, and, I repeat, was for a number of years a member of this House. All those who knew him liked and Tespected him.

Honourable Members: Hear, hear!

The PRElUIER: He was a loyal man, and did what he believed to be right. The ,country is the richer because of the fact he lh·ed. Men of his type can ill be spared. We regret his loss, and extend to those who are nearest and dearest to him our sincere sympathy in their bereavement.

Mr. ~IAHER (West Moreton) (10.46 a.m.): Mr. Speaker, I desire to second the motion of sympathy with the widow, family, and relatives of the late Mr. Keogh. We all very deeply regret his untimely end. He \Yas a comparatively young man-in the prime of life. No doubt the rigour and hardships of war s>ervice had much to do ·with his early death.

Mr. Keogh was a very likable person, genial and honourable. He zealously served his country and his party according to .his political views. He saw his duty during the last war, and accepted the responsibilitieS! of citizenship as a good, loyal, and patriotic citizen of this country and the British Empire. I think it can be truly said that he upheld in the best sense his loyalty to the Empire and to this country lcy his personal service during the last war. That kind of man can be ill spared at any time, but least in these troubled times, which require the loyalty, good will, and leadership of men who have to some extent appreciated their duty to their country in times of >Yar as in times of peace.

At the funeral of the late gentleman, I noticed his eldest son wearing the blue uniform of the Roval Australian Air Force. To the widow and family of the late gentleman all me: nbel'S of the Opposition join most heartily in the PremiN 's motion in wishing them eyery possible consolation in their time of great sonow.

li'Ir. NilUMO (Oxley) (10.49 a.m.): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the United Aus•tralia Party I desire to add our tribute to the late ::\fr. 'Keogh. He was respected by all, and during the period he was in Parliament I can honestly say tlnt he was always endeavouring to bear somebody else's burden. He was a man to whom one could appeal in the confident knowledge that he would try to help. Mr.

Keogh was a man who has done much good daring the period he was in public life. He was a great family man, and I am sure o.ur hearts go out to his widow and family in the great loss they have sustained.

Motion agreed to, hon. members standing in silence.

COMMON LAW PRACTICE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE.

(Mr. King, Maree, in the chair.)

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. J. O'Keefe, Cairns) (10.50 a.m.): I move-

''That it is desirable that a Bill be intro· duced to amend the Common Law Practice Act of 1867 in regard to the law as to the effect of death in relation to causes of action.''

There is great need for the introduction of a measure of this kind. It proposes to adopt into the Queensland statutory law the pro· visions of the English Law Reform (Miscel· laneous) Provisions Act of 1934, enacting that causes of action subsisting against or vested in any person who dies shall survive against or for the benefit of his estate, as the case may be.

The Imperial Act has been the subject of interpretation by the British courts, and I have carefully considered the case of Rose v. Ford, decided in 1937.

The right of a person, injured not fatally by another, to recover damages includes, _in addition to compensation for actual financial loss, the right to damages for pain and su:tr:er· ing caused to him, and for loss of expectatiOn of life.

In the case of Rose v. Ford, the legal personal representative of Miss Rose, who had been severely injured in a motor accident caused by the negligence of Ford, endea· voured to recover damages in respect of all of the above matterd. Miss Rose having died about four davs after the accident, the appeal court held that as the period during which she had suffered was brief, a substantial sum could not be awarded under this heading, but that being a young woman-her age was o:1ly 23-the deprivation or the loss of expectatiOn of life was substantial, and that this loss survived to the benefit of her estate. Her father, who brought the action as the legal personal representative of deceased, also sued under the Fatal Accidents Acts, 1846 to 1908, to recover damages for himself and his wife as depe11dants.

In Queensland, sections 12 and 13 of the Common Law Practice Act of 1867 are analagous to the ImpeTial Fatal Accidents Acts, but the right of action is limited to the wife husband, parent, and child of the dece;sed and the damages are limited to the injmy s~ffered by those relatives. We intm;d to make the law as it stands to-day-th::~t 1s

Common Law Practice [3 SEPTEMBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 175·

to say, if a person meets with an accident and the person who causes that accident dies before any settlement in the shape of compensation has been effected, the one injured will be able to go to the court in the same way as if the person who caused the accident still lived.

I should like to quote a case that is under my notice at the present time. A young man when riding a push bike in Brisbane last year was run down by a builder of this city.

Mr. Maher: In a motor car?

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes. The motor-car driver was insured and the matter was brought under the notice of the company ~with which the builder was insured. That company had gone into the matter of paying compensation to the injured person when the builder-the one causing the accident-died.

Mr. l\Ioore: He was covered by a comprehensive insurance policy~

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes. The person who caused the accident :having died, the company was relieved of responsibility. This Bill proposes that, notwithstanding the death of the holder of the policy, the cause of action smvives.

I do not think there is any other point in connection with this Bill that I need mention at this stage. Hon. members will agree with me that an alteration in our law is needed. Further information will be given during the second reading.

1\Ir. lUOORE (Aubigny) (10.58 a.m.): According to the explanation given by the Acting Minister it certainly looks as if an amendment of the law were necessary. It is mther extraordinary that if a person takes out a third-party insurance policy the victim of any injury caused by him should have no opportunity of getting payment of compensation berause he has died. The very purpose of the policy was to benefit some other person who might be injured, and it seems strange that the death of the insmed should deprive the contemplated beneficiary of any benefit under the policy.

:ftlr. Duggan: The company as a matter of honour should make the payment.

Mr. MOO RE: I should have thought that as a matter of law the death of the insured would have nothing to do with the payment of compensation. The premium is paid by the person insured, and the policy is for the benefit of the victim. If the common law is as stated by the Acting Minister-and I assume it is-then I think the Act should be amended so that this matter will be clear in the future. The death of the insured should not cancel the policy and thus deprive an injured person of any benefits he might othenvise get thereunder.

If that is the only point in the Bill then I can see no objection to it whatever. It seems extraordinary that the law should be so contradictory as the explanation by the Act-

ing Minister indicates. Such cases would not occur very often, but that is no reason why we should not amend the law and so prevent a repetition of snch injustice.

Mr. Maher: Is the provision to be made retrospective to cover the case you mentioned~

The Acting Attorney-General: No.

Itlr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba) (11.3 a.m.): I commend the Acting Minister for introducing the Bill. According to the law the company mentioned by him was not legally bound to pay the damage incurred by the injured person, and I regret that the Bill is not to be made retrospective to cover that case. I suggest to the Acting Minister that perhaps representation should be made to the insurance company concerned asking it to make an ex-gratia payment to the injured person, and, failing that, the matter be given the utmost publicity.

I confirm the view of the hon. member for Aubigny that most people are under the belief that third-party insurance policies are taken out with the object of providing means of payment to injured persons who may meet with road accidents. In short, the policy is taken out to enable the owner of a vehicle t:Q meet a verdict against him for damages in an accident where that owner is at fault. In my opinion, the company concerned was in honour bound to make the payment. Indeed, I understand that the cheque was about to be paid over to the injured person when the insured died, and the company took advantage of the law to refuse to make the payment. In the circumstances, the fullest publicity should be given to the action of the company.

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.4 a. m.) : The Acting Minister did not say when the accident that he mentioned occurred.

The Acting Attorney-General: It happened last year.

Mr. YEATES: It is scandalous to think that an insurance company would take advantage of the law to refuse to honour what should have been its undoubted liability. My company acts as the representative of certain insurance companies, and I am astounded to know that any insurance company would take advantage of a loophole such as that mentioned by the Minister. Is it not possible to make the provision retro· spective to cover that case~

The Acting Attorney-General: No. It would not be fair to make it retrospective, because too many eases would come up.

Mr. YEATES: If that is the only provision in the Bill, then I support it in every way.

Motion (Mr. O'Keefe) agreed to.

Resolution reported.

FIR:sT READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. 0 'Keefe, read a first time.

176 Hire-purchase Agreement [ASSEMBLY.]. Acts Amendment Bill.

HIRE-PURCHASE AGREEMENT ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION IN COlliMI'fTEE.

(11r. King, Maree, in the chair.)

TI1e ACTING ATTORNEY -GENERAL (Hon. J. O'Kcefe, Cairns) (11.11 a.m.): 1 mo,·e-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to amend the Hire-pmchase Agreement Acts, 1933 to 1934, in certain particulars.''

This Bill is a very short one, but nevertheless, is very urgently required by the public. I seek to remedy abuses that have crept into hire-purchase agreements owing, firstly, to the employmm1t of high-pressure salesmen, and, secondly, to the financing of sales under hire-purchase agreements by finance agencies. A standard clause in a hirepurchase agreement provides that the agreement itself shall constitute the whole contract between the owner and purchaser, and ;111 representations or promises, written or verbal, made by the seller or any of his salesmen, but which have not been included in the agreement, shall have no legal effect.

A legal difficulty arises when a hirepurchase agreement is financed by a :finance agency, and the agency appears in the agreement as owner. Hon. members will appreciate how much the position of the finance agency is strengthened by the standard clause mentioned, especially as it takes no part whatever in the negotiations for the sale. Briefly, this amendment will make the owner, whoever he may be, legally responsible for all represenbtions, promises, or inducements held out by any person, whether the principal, agent, or employee, having authority to make the sale.

Section 7 of the principal Act reads-

'' In respect to any legal proceedings taken within 12 months of the date of enteTing into a hire-purchase agreement, :my statement eontained in such agreement ('Yhether e11tererl into before or after the eommencement of this Ac+) to the effect that the O\Hler is not responsible for any representations, promises, or terms made or he'ld out by an~' agent, representative, or servant of the owner shall be void and of no eifect.''

This section is being abused by owners, who are not fulfilling their obligations.

l'IIr. JUaller: Whom do you call the owner?

1'11e ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The owner is the person who owns the implement thnt is hired by some other person-the pmclwser.

It has happened that, in order to avoid his obligations under the law, the owner of a machine has engaged a third party-it may be a financial institution of some description -to draw up an agreement that is so ''"orded that the mvner is not liable for the repre~entations that his representatiYe may have made about the capacity of the machine or chattel in order to bring about a sale.

It has been brought under the notice of the department that this sort of business has been going on for some time. An outstanding case of that nature occurred in North Queensland. A sugar farmer purchased an implement, but found that it did not do the work it was represented that it would do; he took the matter to court, and, after spending hundreds of pounds in litigation, he found the law was against him, although the judge remarked that, morally, he was entitled to a verdict. Therefore, it is thought necessary to amend the Act to prevent people from evading their obligations.

I do not think I can usefully add anything further at this stage. I will enlarge on the point during the second reading stage.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (11.14 a.m.): No doubt the Minister means well by introducing the amendment; but to carry it out successfully is quite another matter. A salesman may introduce a prospective buyer of a farm implement or other chattel under the hire-purchase system, but who is to decide the nature of the representations, assurances, and promises about the capacity of the chattel that were given by the salesman~ A salesman may overstate the capabilities of the machine he is selling to the prospective buyer or hirer, but who is going to prove iU There is only the word of the hirer or purchaser against that of the salesman. If a third party was present it is easy enough to establish what was said, but my experience of this class of business is that a machinery salesman visiting a sugar farm or wheat farm meets the farmer, the prospective purc-haser, by himself, on a plough or cultivator, or working on a haystack, and the salesman at once concentrates on the business of selling the article. Usually sales ~re not negotiated in the presence of a thud party. It is a private matter between the farmer and the salesman, and very frequently a farmer will resent the presence of his · farmhands or neighbours. The atmosphere in which such sales are conducted would militate against the presence of a third party.

I find it extraordinarily difficult to see how these things can be overcome by legislation. Nobody is able to judge who is the untruthful party. It is possible that the purchaser might find some reason to be dissatisfied with his purchase and accuse the salesm~m of having over-represented the capacity of the chattel. On the other hand, it is quite possible that the salesman would overstate his case. From what I see from mv experience of matters of this kind, ail reputable firms, the big farrn-infplement houses, motor-car firms, and others, have a very high standard, and they instruct their salesman that they must not overstate. To-day, if a man goes to buy a motor car he is fairly astute. He knows what to expect. Nowadays, they are all of a high standard. In what way would a salesman of a motor car be able to misrepresent the case to a prospectiYe hirer~ The trend is now not to overstate its merits. Usually, the salesman does not even say it is a better car than that of his competitors. More often than not he says: ''I don't want to run the

Hire-purchase Agreement [3 SEPTEMBE:&.] Acts Amendment Bill. 177

other firm's car down. It is equal to ours in some respects, but in others we think ours is superior.'' That is generally his line of talk.

As for fanning implements, a farmer sees his neighbour using ploughs, threshers, seed drills, and other implements, and from observation knows what each will do. In these days tra.ctors, for instance, are of a very high standard. The farmer usually knows what each will do. How could a salesman overstate his case so that the farmer would suffer loss~

The Acting Attorney-General: The very fact that the owner endeavours to protect himself by allowing a third party to come in an<} make an agreement with the hirer proves that he desires to get out of some obligations to the hirer.

}fr. MAHER: I suppose he sees the possibility of being involved in litigation, and he tries to make the transaction watertight to avoid such possibilities, but I think it would be only in very rare instances that the powers asked for in this amending Bill would have to be used. Commercial standards are very, very high to-day.

The firms with which I have been associated in this class of business have executives who train their salesmen in the presentation of their case and direct them not to try to get business by unfair representations or by claiming more for the machine than it is capable of doing. As a matter of fact, so far as the capacities of tractors or motor trucks are concerned, for example, the firms give a far wider range than is pr·ovided for in the warranty contained in the agreement.

The Acting Attorney -General: The honest person has nothing to fear. I believe that 95 per cent. of the people are honest, as you say, but we must protect the public against the other 5 per cent.

lUr. lliAHER: The old days of misrepresentation are gone. I remember that in the early days of the wheat areas in New South Wales some salesmen would promise a farmer a bale of binder twine or perhaps a couple of gallons of lubricating oil if he bought a binder. -:y[any of the farmers who bought under those conditions found that the firms whom the salesmen represented refused to honour such a promise, stating that the salesmen were not authorised to make it. Of course, as the binder was on the ground the farmer would invariably accept it. But I have not seen anything of that kind for many years, and I think that if a sale3man was suspe~ted ·of making such promises on behalf of his firm to-day he would be promptly dismissed.

In my experience there is excellent commercial morality amongst motor houses and farm-implement firms to-day. Of course, it is possible that some mushroom firm that has a product of minor importance and is not anxious to create lasting good will amongst the peOlJle might emplov salesmen who would persuade people to buy its produds" by mDking impussible promises and by mis· rcpnsentation.

The Acting Attorney-General: Why do some of the owners go to a third person to-day when making agreements for hiring~ \Yhy do they not make the agreements themselves~

lUr. }IAHER: I do not quite understand why they would ask financial houses, for instance, to be responsible in that way. Of course, most of the big implement ·houses find that they can reduce costs a great deal by dealing for cash. They sell the product to their dealers and agents for a net cash price, but in ·order that the dealers and agents in the country might be able to find the cash to buy that product, financial houses have sprung up to carry out the whole of the financial transactions and to be responsible for the collection of the money. As these firms are not directly c·oncerned in the deal, I suppose they desire to have that safeguarding clause because they do not know just what has happened in the obtaining of the business. In order to protect themselves they insert a clause exonerating them from responsibility if there is any suggestion of misrepresentation.

The Acting Attorney-General: The purpose of the Bill is not to let them contract the original owner out of :!lis obligations. It will not have any effect upon a third person so long as the agreement that is made with the hirer does not contract the original owner out of his original obligation.

Mr. MAHER: That is really the full purport of the Bill?

The Acting Attorney-General: Yes.

Mr. lUAHER: At any rate, we shall have a look at the Bill when it comes along and see what we think of it. :\Iy experience suggests that whether the existing legislation is amended in the way the Acting :Minister indicates or not, we shall not get over the difficulty. Where only two people are concerned it is going to be hard to prove that a salesman has been guilty of misrepresen tation. \Ve are thrown back on the old Roman dictum ' 'Let the buyer beware.''

The Acting· Attorney-General: There will be a pro,·ision to let the court decide.

lUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.26 a.m.) : :My firm acts as agent in the sale of machinery to sugar-planters and other farmers. vV e have never experienced trouble in all the long years we have represented H. V. McKay Proprietary Limited. If any little fault has occured the vendor has immediately rectified it. I think the department under the Acting Minister is probably thinking of second-hand motor cars. There was a time when we dealt in motor cars as a subsidiary part of our business, and had a lot of second-hand cars on hand as trade-ins.

The Acting Attorney-General: This Bill proposes to cover all chattels, whether new or second-hand.

~Ir. YEATES: I think trouble might occur at times in the second-hand car business.

Mr. Maher: You sell second-hand cars with all faults, if any?

178 Hire-purchase, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wills (Soldiers, &c.) Bill.

Tlle CHAIRMAN: Order! I cannot permit an argument to take place between two hon. members.

Mr. YEATES: Sometimes a salesman is very eager to earn a little extra commission and may overstep the mark b:, saying things about a car that are not strictly correct. He might almost guarantee so many miles to the gallon. How are you going to prove th:tt misrepresentation~ In the sale of machinery the agent is usually-l should say almost invariably-accompanied by a representative of the firm concerned. The motor-car salesman, however, is invariably by himself in 99 cases out of 100-nnd might be inclined to overstep the mark. It may be all right to make this amendment to cover some unscrupulous person.

I did not follow the Acting :'llinister in his remarks about the third-person :financier. H. V. McKay Limited does its own :financing, but I realise that some companies transfer the :financial obligations to a separate company. In the case of motor cars, both new and second-hand, financial institutions take the agreement of the principal-in our case it was Whatmore Mcintosh Motors Limited. The hire-purchase agreement and the promissory notes are handed over to the third party and no new agreement is made.

Perhaps the Minister has in mind some mushroom concerns that are doing these things, but I know nothing about them.

The Acting Attorney-General: They are not altogether mushroom :firms.

Mr. YEATES: Perhaps the Acting Minister has in mind some unscrupulous dealers.

The Acting Attorney-General: The Bill will not alter_ the present method of :financing these deals. Its object is to prevent the owner of the chattel from conferring power on a :finance house or a private person whereby such finance house or person may enter into an agreement with the hirer contracting the owner out of his legal obligations. In short, the purpose of the Bill is to declare that one or both shall remain the owner of the goods.

lUr. YEATES: When a vendor sells ro a hirer an agreement is drawn up.

The Acting Attorney-General: But there should be no agreement to relieve the owner of any legal responsibility to the hirer. When this Bill is passed such agreements will be void, and "·ill have no effect whatever in a court of law.

Mr. YEATES: My company has never done anything like that. In the case of new cars our principals have sold through us to the hirer and an appropriate agreement was drawn up embodying the transaction.

Tlle Acting Attorney-General: That was clear.

Mr. YEATES: Then the paper was handed over to a :finance company. I do not quite follow the Acting Minister when he says that another agreement is--

The Acting Attorney-General: I am not speaking about two agreements. First of all, the owner sends his representative to the country. He makes a deal whereby some person agrees to become the hirer of a chattel. The prospective hirer fills in an application form asking that the chattel be sent to him. Then the owner gets another person to enter into an agreement with the prospective hirer, but there is only one agreement. We have found in some such agreements a provision whereby the legal obligation on the owner is wiped out, and the prospectiYe hirer has no action in law against the owner in respect of the chattel so hired. The purpose of the Bill is to make either or both parties concerned in the sale of the chattel the owner thereof.

Mr. YEATES: Perhaps the Acting Minister has in mind a dealer who does not conduct any business at all.

The Acting Attorney-General: It will apply to everyone. The Bill deals with hire-purchase agreementS'. ·

1\Ir. YEATES: I can see what the Acting Minister is aiming at now, and the provision may be a reasonable one. However, I shall wait until I see the Bill.

The Acting Attorney-General: In Toowoomba, for instance, there are people acting as dealers for Brisbane :firms, but whoe~er they may be they are both going to be regarded as owners of the chattel in accordance with the terms of this measure.

Mr. YEATES: I can see the difficulty involved in proving the obligation of the owner in a court of law, but the defects in law may be overcome. That appears to be reas10nably possible.

The Acting Attorney-General: We cannot expect 100 per cent. effectiveness, but there is no doubt that the Bill will extend greater protection to hirers.

Mr. YEATES: I shall reserve further comment until I have seen the Bill.

Motion (Mr. 0 'Keefe) agreed to.


FIRST READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. 0 'Keefe, read a :first time.

WILT>S (SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AND MEMBERS OF THE AIR- FORCE) BILL.



Tl1e ACTING ATTORNEY -GENERAL (Hon. J. O'Keefe, Cairns) (11.35 a.m.): I move-

''That it is desirable that a Bill be intra-• duced to amend the law with respect to

testamentary dispositions by soldiers, sailors, and members of the Air Force.''

Wills (Soldiers, Sailors, and [3 SEPTEMBER.] Members of the Air Force) Bill. 179

This Bill has been suggested to me by the Queensland La1v Society Incorporated. Sections in certain Acts in the Old Country provide the testamentary dispositions of soldiers, sailors, and others whilst engaged on active service in war time, whereby members of the fighting services are permitted to make wills without the same formalities required in ordinary walks of life.

The provisions of this Bill follow closely those set out in the English Act of 1918. 'fhis elate indicates that it was passed during the 1914-18 European war. It defined ''soldier'' as including a member of the Air Force, and we intend to do likewise in this measure. The English Act of 1867 was passed over 60 years prior to the creation of an Air Force. This legislation includes females serving with the forces. Hon. members will readily understand that in these times many women have joined up in some capacity or other with the :fighting forces and are engaged in military work. Some are employed in driving motor vehicles and other machine-propelled vehicles. The day may come when women will be engaged in that class of military duty on the battlefield. There is also the position of the nurse. We desire to extend the provisions of this Bill to nurses engaged in war work, in the same manner as it seeks to cover the soldier, sailor, or member of the Air Force. While she is travelling overse~s she is running the same risk of being killed as the soldier, and this measure will give her the same opportunity of making a will as he has.

ltlr. JUoore: What is to stop her from making a will now~

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Our laws.

Mr. JUoore: But anybody can make a will.

Tlle ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: According to certain formalities. As I proceed, I shall endeavour to show the need for this measure.

Section 43 of the Queensland Succession Act of 1867 was taken from the English Wills Act of 1837 and reads-

'' Provided always that any soldier being in actual military service or any mariner or seaman being at sea may dispose of his personal estate as he might have done before the making of this Act.' '

It is intended to make provision for these people, and one of the clauses of the proposed Bill explains this section. I draw attention to the words ''though one under the age of 21 years'' at the end of the clause. 'l'he provision in section 43 of the Queensland Succc'ssion Ad of 1867 is best explained by the following note in the reprint of the Queensland Statutes, page 25, volume 9:-

' 'Persmwl property might at common lnw have b~~n disposed of by a will made hy 1Yord of mouth, provided it was prowt1 lJv at least two witnesses. Such a will wus l~uown as a nuncupative will. Alternatively, it might haYe been disposed of by writing

to which there were two witnesses or admittedly written or signed by the testator. Important restrictions on the form of a will by which personalty might be disposed of were created by the Statute of Frauds, 1677 (29 Car. 2, c. 3), which, however, by section 22, provided that notwithstanding anything in that Act any soldier being in actual military service or any mariner or seaman being at sea might dispose of his personal estate as he might have done before the passing of that Act. The present section continues this freedom from the requirements as to execution imposed by this Act on wills of other persons. A soldier's will must still be made either in the manner required for a civilian's will under this Act or as a will of personalty might have been made before the Statute of Frauds. Notwithstanding section 37, ante (that is of the Queensland Succession Act of 1867 which prohibits the making of a valid will by a minor), a soldier on actual military service who is under 21 years of age may make a will.''

It is the intention to make that point clear. At present it is stated in the Act that a person under the age of 21 years who is on active service cail make a will, but he cannot make a will under the conditions that a civilian can. We are giving him the right to make a will on active service.

Mr. )loo re: This only refers to minorsmen under 21.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Ko, it refers to any person on active service.

lUr. Moore: The disability is on the person under 21; any ordinary person can make a ''"ill if he is over 21.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: He can make a will under certain conditions as laid down by our laws.

}lr. Moo re: But in some cases you see that a man has made a will on a scrap of paper and it is legal.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: In some cases it is not upheld. For instance, a sailor or a mariner can, under certain condions, make a will quite differently to a will they could make as ordinary civilians on land. Something may happen to his boat and ~e may think he is close to death, and he rs allowed to make a valid will orally in the presence of a witness or two. But that would not be so if he »'ere not at sea.

The Bill also provides that a will made by a ceaman or a m0mber of the marine forces ~when not at sea will be of the same validity as if it were mar1e whilst the testator was at sea. As an illustration, take the evacuation of the British forces from France, when members of the~ marine forces had to do work on land. Under such circumstances they would have the same rights and powers of making wills as obtains at present with soldiers.

I hope, ::\h. King, that my explanation can be followed by hon. mcmhcrs. It is important that we shoulu make the necessary provisions

180 Wills (Soldiers, Sailors, and [ASSEMBLY.] Members of the Air Force) Bill,

for the making of wills by soldiers, sailors, and other members of the fighting forces.

lUr. Maher: What you really propose is that anybody on active service, irrespective of age, can make a will by \Yord of mouth provided two witnesses are present~

Tile ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes.

Mr. Maher: Is that the gist of it?

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That is the gist of it. It can be in writing. It is deemed to be in writing even if it is scratched on a match box or something of that kind.

Mr. Jliaher: I thought you said that the will could be made by word of mouth.

Tl1e ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Provided there are two witnesses present at the time, that is deemed to be a genuine will. Provision is also made that no witnesses to such a will shall be able to participate in the benefits of the will. Hon. members can well understand the motive for that. A person may be a witness to such a will and on the death of the testator depose to a \Vill that gives him a benefit.

Mr. Duggan: Could a dishonest witness participate in the benefits from a \Vill ~

Mr. Copley: Even in common law a witness to a will cannot participate in the benefit under that will.

The ACTING ATTORNEY ·GENERAL: "\Ye are making it plain that witnesses to a will cannot participate.

Soldiers may become separated from their battalion. They may be out scouting or on similar duty. One of them makes a will in the presence of witnesses and is killed. A witness might then depose that the dead soldi~ made the will in such a way that he would benefit.

Mr. Moore: Suppose the nearest relative happens to be one of the witnesses.

The ACTING ATTORNEY -GENERAL: It would be an extraordinary coincidence if that happened.

Of course, we must provide for the interests of the greatest number. Small anomalies can be found under almost every Bill.

Mr. Jlfaller: Is this Bill brought down at the request of the Commonwealth Government or is it being adopted by all the States,

Tl1e ACTING ATTORNEY -GENERAL: It has been suggeste-d by the Queensland Law Society Incorporated, which sent a letter to the department asking that favourable consideration be given to such a Bill, so that every person on active service, including those under 21 years of age, might have the opportunity of making a valid will during his period of active service.

Mr. Maher: I am not quite clear on one point. Will a will be valid if made by word of mouth only~

TJ1e ACTING ATTORNEY -GENERAL: Ye~.

Jlir. Maller: If there is no writing whatsoeYer~

Tile ACTING ATTORl~EY-GENER.AL: Yes.

lUr. JUaller: It must be made in the presence of two ·witnesses.

Tile ACTING ATTORNEY -GENERAL: Yes. That will apply to the disposition of not only personal but also real estate.

The Bill also provides that a minor cannot alter his will made while on active service. Once he leaves active service he can revoke that will, but if he does so he is not allowed to make a fresh will under this law; he is then an ordinary citizen, and is therefore outside its provisions.

Mr. Nimmo: But you cannot prevent a man from making his will at any time.

The Premier: It is not proposed to do that. The Bill will provide, ''While remaining a minor and subject to this Act.''

The ACTING ATTORl~EY-GENERAL: I think the measure is simple, and I do not expect that any hon. member of the Opposition will be able to find any fault with it.

Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba) (11.51 a.m.): I do not think anybody will object to a Bill that has for its purpose the improvement of provisions enabling a soldier, sailor, or airman to make a \Vill, but I cannot quite understand why the measure is nece&sary, because the Minister knows that before any soldier, sailor, or airman goes on active service he must under tlie Defence Act complete a will. Of course, the exigencies of modern warfare have meant bringing into the st-rife airmen in greater numbers, and women, and that may make such a Bill necessary.

Tlw Acting Attorney-General: He is forced to make a will.

Jllr. NICKLIN: He is forced to make a will.

The Premier: While he is on active Service circumstances might arise that would render the making of a new will necessary or desirable.

Mr. NICKLIN: That may be so, but one of the provisions of the proposed Bill, if I understood the Minister aright, is that a minor will not be allowed to alter his will while on active service. I do not know from memory if a minor was permitted to make a will during the last war, but I think that all soldiers, whether minors or not, made wills before they went on active service. If that is not so, then it is necessary that provision be made to enable them to do so. The proposed measure, however, suggests that a minor cannot alter his will while on active service, and to my mind that is a dangerous provision. As we know, many sailors, soldiers, and airmen get married. Although a minor might have no idea of getting married at the time of making his will, he might get

Wills (Soldiers, S[tilors, and [3 SEPTEMBER.] Members of the Air Force) Bill. 181

married while on active service, and it is only natural that he would desire to alter his will to make his wife the chief beneficiary. For that reason I think it is dangerous to include a provision preventing him from altering his will \Vhile on active service.

It may be necessary to introduce some of the proposed provisions to meet extraordinary circumstances, but if the military authorities continue their present practice of making every soldier, sailor, or airman complete his will before going on active service, I cannot see the need for the measure. Perhaps when we see the Bill, and hear it. explained more fully on the second reading, we may be able to understand its purpose more clearly. At present, ho>Yever, considering all the circumstances, it does not seem to be necessary.

3Ir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.55 a.m.) : Do I understand from the Minister that a will can be made orally so long as there are two witnesses~

The Acting Attorney-General: Yes.

lUr. YEATES: I understand a member of the forces must make a will before he leaves Australia. Let us suppose that he is marrie·d \Yith a wife and children and during the voyage or on service abroad his ~ife dies. It would be necessary for a new w1ll to be made. Am I right in my belief that the Bill stipulates that that man is not allowed to alter or make another will~

The Acting Attorney-General: No. I want to make myself clear. A minor who has made a will under the conditions, as set forth in this measure, can alter it during his period of active service, but once he leaves active senice he can keep his will or revoke it. Be cannot then make a fresh one. The Bill only deals with a person on active service.

Mr. YEATES: It seems to me that if the States fall into line in this matter-and 1 assume they will-it is a good argument for the abolition of State Parliaments. However, I shall deal with that matter some other dav. The Acting Minister did not hear my que"stion.

lUr. COPLEY (Kurilpa) (11.57 a.m.) : I think the Bill is necessary. .Nobody desires that we should place any obstacle in the way of the making of a will by a minor who has enlisted in any of the three arms of the service.

I think hon. members realise that the statutory law requires that a will shall be reduced to writing, that it be signed in the presence of t',•'O witnesses both of whom are presm1t at the same time, and who in the testator's presence and the presence of each other subscribc their names as witnesses to the will. A man, in extremis, may say to two of his colleagues that he wishes to leave his property to his father or his mother. He might wish to leave it to his mother. If he died il1testatc' the father would obtain the whole of the estate as personal representative of the deceased.

In reply to the question raised by the hon. member for Murrumba, I wish to say that no

provision has been macle in Queensland previously along these lines. There was an English Act, but strangely enough, it did not prescribe that relatives could not be witnesses. The law as it exists throughout the British Commonwealth of Nations prescribes that a relative or any person who will benefit under a >Yill cannot be a witness to the making of that will. I think the reason for that provision is obvious, because unscrupulous persons might get a person in ill-health or under their domination to make a will in their favour that might be far remote from the testator's intentions. The idea is that the witnesses should be independent persons.

Mr. Yeates: Quite proper.

lUr. COPLEY: Yes, quite proper. There would be fewer opportunities for a man on active service to have a relative nearby to witness a will than in civil life, unless, of com·,e, two brothers enlisted and were serving alongside each other. The anomalies that may arise can be obviated, and at least they should not be allowed to destroy a principle that is right in an extraordinary emergency.

The provision relating to the alteration of a will appears to me to contain some clangers. 'rake the case of a minor who enlists, and during his period of active service makes a will. Then, probably through ill-health or through other causes, he is discharged from the military force.

lUr. Yeates: Has he not to make a will in accordanace with a Federal rule before he leaves this country?

Mr. COPLEY: There may be such a rule, but there is no mandatory provision whereby he must make a will. I think that it is only when he is requested by the authorities, and that it is not mandatory upon him.

JUr. Nicklin: Yes, it is.

lUr. COPLEY: It is mandatory?

Mr. Nicklin: Yes, in accordance with the regulations.

Mr. COPLEY: Let us consider the case of a man who has a large increase in personalty and realty after enlistment. His will, whether made because of a mandatorv provision or otherwise, may not, because o'f his altered circumstances, express his real wishes. For instance, he may win the first prize in the Golden Casket because someone has sent a ticket to him, and he may then think that members of the family, other than the father, require an allocation of it. If his first will left all his real and personal estate to his father, and if he left the military forces before attaining the age of 21 years, he would not be able to alter his will to give effect to his new intentions, whereas if he had not enlisted he would only have power to dispose of his estate after he was 21 years of age. The S'tatute of Distributions under intestacy would apply, and the father would get the whole of the estate. I think there is just that weakness in the matter, but I think also we can safely assume that there will be very few lads 18 years of age, who, having· made a will, will desire to alter it,

182 Wills (Soldiers, &c.) Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Burdekin. River Trust Bill.

because of altered circumstances, before attaining the age of 21 years, after having left the military forces. There need not be much cause for worry about that provision. The Bill is a good one, and should commend itself to hon. members.

lUr. DART (Wynnum) (12.3 p.m.) : The Bill is a good one, but I have been turning over in my mind a case I know that suggests that perhaps it may be a detriment to minors who enlist. In the last war I had two brothers-in-law in the fighting forces in France. Before they went into battle, they each decided to make a will, each leaving his property to the other. While in the line, one of them was killed in action, and the other applied for the benefit of his will, which had been made in his favour. An amount of £600 was involved, and he hnd no difficulty in getting the money. That provision was very fair, and any minor who enlists may do the same thing. Many brothers are enlisting. I know of five or six in the one family, and some of them are minors.

If a minor with the fighting services makes a will and he cannot alter it, an anomaly arises that should be rectified.

The Acting Attorney-General: Immediately a member of the fighting seTVices reverts to civilian life he is, being no longer a soldier, sailor, or member of the Air Force, amenable to the ordinary laws of the land.

Mr. DART: It is just as necessary that such a provision should apply to a soldier, sailor, or member of the Air Force after he reverts to his civilian status. This Bill might deprive him of some interest in an estate. Many soldiers change their mode of living. Some go overseas and marry there. Before enlisting they may have willed their estates to their fathers or mothers. In the event of death of such a man, his estate would go to the nearest relative, which is the wife.

I support the Bill, but I counsel the Committee to be very careful.

Tlle Acting Attorney-General: If your suggestion is given effect to, every person under the age of 21 years must be conceded the right to make a will.

Jlir. DART: If that is the order of the day, then it is a good move.

The Acting Attorney-G-eneral: We must remember that special circumstances alter cases.

Jlfr. DART: That is so, but .a minor while engaged with the fighting forces on the other side of the world should have the privilege of making a will.

"~Ir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (12.7 p.m.): I should like the Minister to make a definite statement whether it is mandatory for every soldier to make a will on enlistment or "before departing from these shores. I should also like to ask the Minister whethGr a minor who is married but has no children would be compelled to make a new will in

the event of the d-eath of his wife while he is on active service. Natmally, he may give all he possesses to his wife. In that event, she will succeed to his estate. Many soldiers are worth considerable sums. If this minor dies after his wife, having no relatives, will his estate go to the Public Curator? HP may ha1e desired his estate to go to friends.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. J. 0 'Keefe, Cairns) (12.9 p.m.): I will endoa vour to give the information desired by some hon. members when I am making my second-reading speech.

'l'he hon. member for Murrumba stated that the military authorities compelled a man, on joining up for active service overseas, to make a will. While that is so, it must be remembered that a man must have the capacity to make a will. That is why, under ordinary circumstances, a minor is debarred from executing a will. It must not be forgotten that he must conform to the law as it stands at present, but if he enlists for active service this Bill will simplify matters for him should he be anxious to dispose of his estate.

Mr. Yeates: Will you not allow the minor the same privilege after he has enlisted here~

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The Bill provides for men and women, including minors, who are on acti\·e service. They get a privilege' that we do not give to civilians; once they return to civilian life they lose that privilege.

lUr. Yeates: What is the definition of ''active service''~ Does it mean when they are in camp at Redl:ank','

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I cannot give the hon. member a definition off-hand, but I presume that once a man enters a military camp he would be regarded a~ being on active service.

Mr. Yeates: That is what I should like it to be. Then a boy could make his will before he left.

Tlle ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL: He may not 1vant to make one. We wish to give him the power to make one when he wants to make one. If he desires to make one while he is here he can do so. He has all the facilities to make one here, but when he is overseas under different circumstances we wish to make it easy for him to make a will.

Motion (?\fr. 0 'Keefe) agreed to.


FIRST READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. 0 'Keefe, read a first time.

BURDEKIN RIVER TRUST BILL.

INITIATIO::-< IN COMMITTEE.

Order discharged from paper.

Mining ActB [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amenchnent Bill. 183

1\H=-"ING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.



The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (12.16 p.m.): I move-

'' That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to amend the Mining Acts, 1898 to 1930, the Coal Mining Acts, 1925 to 1939, and the Mining for Coal and Mineral Oil Act of 1912, respectively, each in certain particulars.''

There are virtually only three principles in this Bill. The first deals with trespass. At the present time a miner's right gives to the holder the right to enter upon and occupy Crown lands. It is necessary for prospectors and others who are searching for minerals to be able to do that, but it is found that persons in other occupations in settled mining townships have been using the Crown lands surrounding the townships and have not been meeting their obligations to either the local authority or the Crown for the use of those lands.

}Ir. Maher: They are just occupying the land, and they are only entitled to do that under a miner's right~

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Yes.

Mr. lUaher: They are not bona-fide prospectors for minerals~

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: No. The provision is designed to deal wtih those who are known on the mining fields as squatters. We therefore propose to incorporate in the Mining Acts similar provisions to those to be found in the Land Acts.

"\Ve are also asking for an amended definition of· ''coal'' to bring mining for shale and stratified ironstone within the safety provisions of the Mines Regulation Act, so that shafts, tunnels, drives, and other workings used for the extraction of shale especially may come under the same regulation as similar workings in coalmines. At the present time there is much activity in working shale deposits, and we are hopeful of doing something with them. The provisions asked for will give proper protection to the men engaged in this branch of mining.

Another proposed amendment deals with royalties. For a considerable time varying rates have operated. A royalty of 4r1. a ton has been charged for the first five years and 8d. a ton for the remainder of the period for all mines situated lOO miles or more from a seaport or other place of delivery. J\Iil1es situated within 100 miles there•of paid a royalty of 6d. for the first five years and ls. for the remainder of the period. There has been some controversy as to where the point of delivery is. The object of having the varying rates was to grant a concession to those who were operating mines at the greater distance from a seaport in order that they might have a chance to export their coal. We have found in many cases that the coal upon which this

royalty was paid has not been exported, but used for other purposes.

Mr. JUaher: You are referring now to royalties due to the Crown?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Yes. Royalties paid for coal won from private lands is a matter for agreement between the parties concerned. We do not interfere. The proposed amendment provides for a fiat rate of 6d. for the first five years and ls. for the remainder of the period. We do not propose that the amendment shall operate during tile currency of present leases, no matter how long those leases have to run; it will come into operation either when a new leas~ is taken out or present leases renewed.

Mr. Maher: This will be a fiat rate irrespective of the distance from any port'?

Tlle SECRETARY FOR MINES: Yes.

Mr. Dgrt: H will be an increased rate?

Tlle SECRETARY FOR MINES: No, it will be the same rate as has prevailed all over the State, with the exception that no concession will be allowed to mines that are over 100 miles from a sea.port or other place of delivery. The proposed fiat rate will operate irrespective of distance.

It is also proposed to amend the provisions requiring a three-monthly survey of ml<1erground workings. It is only during the last 12 or 18 months that the three-monthly survey has been strictly enforced by the department. For some reason or other, a six-monthly survey 'vas previou'sly allowed. Some of the small mines are put to considerable expense in having to pay an authorised surveyor to survey the workings every three months. If there is no danger of running into old workings or of crossing boundaries, it is really not necessary to have a survey every three months, and we_. therefore, propose to grant an exem'ption allowing a survey to be made every six months if the workings are 4 chains from the boundary or any old workingH that are likely to be dangerous. As hon. members know, old workings may be full of water, anl in order to know when the mine will strike that water or how near it is to it, it is necessary that a survey be made periodically. In most cases we provide that boring shall be clone ahead of the workings. Then, too, various old workings accumulate gas, and it is essential that a survey be made in order to ascertain just where the men are working, so that there will be no danger of driving into the gas and causing an explosion or accident.

Another provision in the Bill deals with the colliery owner who is inclined to work over his boundary into property over which he has no lease to work. It has been found that such incursions into other property have only been discovered a considerable time after the work began, and the adjoining owner could not apply his remedy, because the statutory time-limit within which to take action had elapsed. It is necessary, in the interests of the men, that, in those circumstances, an inspector shall have the power to order a survey to be made after three

184 Mining Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

months. As I said, provision will be made that where there is no danger of running beyond boundaries or into old ·workings, a survey can be made every six months.

I have much pleasure in moving the motion.

lUr. lUAHER (West Moreton) (12.27 p.m.) : . I do not see anything in the Bill, as outlmed by the Minister, to which "lve can offer any serious objection. In the first place, it is clear that considerable embarrassmer:t c?uld be caused to local-governing b_odws If, under the authority of miners' nghts, people in settled occupations who are n~t bona-fid~ prospectors for golcl or other nunerals . b:r1ld homes and take up their abode Withm the limits of goldfield areas It indica~es, of course, that people ar~ cudeavourmg to escape the rising scale of :·ates by trying to build homes on land that IS free from such rating. It is indeed a matter that is seriously exercising the mi~ds ?f people. far removed from goldfields. People m the City ~re facing _an ever-increasing ~cale of taxatwn and desire to escape from It. Where it will end, I do not know. I ~ave heard that people have taken to living m houseboats, moored in our streams in order to escape local taxation. The 'hon. member for Murrumba reminds me that the Department of Harbours and Marine would chase you away.

To face the realities of the position it is clear that there is an inclination to pu~chase the leases of blocks of land under miners' rights _i~ order to escape local rating. Local authon~1es are embarrassed accordingly, and are entitled to some relief. The Bill in that respect seems to be warranted.

I ea~ see no o~her reason for the provision regardmg royalties, than the desire of the Minister to get increased reYenue. There must. be increased revenue ·with a rate of 6d. to ls. in every instance instead of the former rates of 4d. and Sd., and 6d. and ls. It must mean that more revenue is to be collected, otherwise I hardly think the Minister would bother to interfere with the existing scale. That, too, shows how the hand uf the Crown ever reaches out further and further in pursuit of taxation from those who are engaged in industry. It is only a small impost compared with some forms of taxation that we have to meet, nevertheless the increase is in tune with the policy of the Government.

The Minister has explained that the Bill also provides that the definition of ''coal'' shall include ''stratified ironstone and shale.'' It seems to be rather stretching the meaning of the word ''coal'' to include ironstone and shale when they are so far removed from the actual notion. I do not know why it should be necessary to include such minerals as coal. If that had been necessary it could have been done under the Coal Mining Acts. However, that is the way of the law and as someone has said, ''The law is an ass.''

I have a personal interest in the matter of surveys, because there are quite a number of

collieries in my electorate, and recently I introduced a deputation to the Minister on this subject. He gave the members of the deputation a very courteous hearing, and promised to consider their request, which was to ease the burden of survey fees on the smaller collieries. The fee, I think, is about £7 7s.

Tl1e Secretary for .Mines: It depends on the distance the surveyor has to go.

.Mr. lUAHER: It was pointed out by the deputation that surveys frequently meant an outgoing of £7 7s. each three-monthly period and that the Act provided that the work could be done only by an authorised surveyor.

The Secretary for Jllines: At one place where six men were employed the cost was £21.

lUr. JUAHER: That is an unreasonable burden and no industry should be asked to carry such heavy survey costs every three months. It could be done only by greatly increasing the price of coal and the extra cost would have to be borne by the consumer. There are very sound reasons why the small collieries should not be asked to carry out the surveys so frequently as they have had to do in the past.

At 12.34 p.m.,

Mr. DUNSTAN (Gympie), one of the panel of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chairman in the chair.

JUr. lUAHER: It may be justified in the case of very large collieries, but in my electorate there are many shallow workings and the risks are not nearly so great as they are in the deeper wmkings of some of th_e larger collieric>B. ·with most of the small collieries the owners are often themselve& working miners struggling to earn a living, and to ask them to get an authorised surveyor every three months at a minimum cost of £7 7s. is to throw far too great a burden on them.

I am very pleased, indeed, that the Minister has given favourable consideration to the request of the deputation to extend the period to six months. Some risk might be encountered by reason of old workings and gassy conditions, but protection will be given by the fact that the old workings must not be within 4 chains of the boundary or the r-:nrvev must be made every three months. Gene1:ally speaking, the clause will be very well received bv the colliery proprietors, who haYe felt the 'pressure of this condition of the A('t for a considerable time. The Bill as outlined by the Minister will meet. with geReral npproyal.

l!Ir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (12.36 p.m.): The Bill appears to me to be a satisfactory one, but we shall get more details as to its contents on the second reading.

The amendment seeking to help local nuthorities to remove supposed miners from miners' leaseholds is a step in the right direction.

Mining Acts Amendment Bill. [3 SEPTEMBER.] Diseases in Stock, &c., Bill. 185

I have a request which I should like the ::\Iinister to take into consideration on this Bill, and if it is too late to incorporate my suggestion in the Bill to give effect to it later by regulation. It is in relation to the allowance of £2 a week that is made from the State development tax to prospectors. I understand-I stand to be corrected if I am wrong-that this sum is payable to persons engaged in prospecting for gold or iTOn ore only. In times such as the present it is essential in the interest~ of the nation that this allowance should be extended to cover prospecting for petroleum shale. We have no idea how long the war will last, or whether our petrol supplies will be cut off. It might continue for three years or longer. In the electorate of East Toowoomba, in the Range just this sicle of the city, are large quantities of shale. Two men, Messrsl. M. J. Kelly ancl A. Hill, are prospecting there. They are first-class workers ancl have taken up their task very enthusiastically. They nre 110t the type of men who want their hot milk :1t 11 o'clock each morning, but are out to get on with their job. Here is a letter I have received from them-

'' There is some information you will be able to procure for us concerning shale-oil prospecting. vVe have paid for a 150-acre lease, ancl have been asked for a casih boncl of £1,000 before the lease \Yill be granted to us.''

I am not assuming tha"t I know everything about the Act, but I presume that this cash bond of £1,000 has been asked for by the mining registrar or clerk of petty sessions at Toowoomba. The letter continues-

'' We are not a syndicate or a company, and not producing oil, but prospecting for a large deposit before any retorts or condensers will be installed for the trca tment of the shale.

''Then again we are not boring for free oil. Shale oil is mineral oil, which may not be under the same Act as free oil. As before stated, we are prospectors trying to locate shale in payable quantities before operating or producing oil.·'

I visited these two men. They possess what appeared t.o me to be an economical apparatus, and, after putting through 30 lb. of shale, they produced more than 3 quarts of crude oil. J wish to place the matter befOTe the Minister and his experts, and I hope it will receive the sympathetic consideration that it deserves; I shall be satisfied if it does so.

I hope provision will be made in the Bill to enable shale prospectors to benefit from the allowance provision covering other prospectors.

Motion (Mr. Gledson) agreed to.

Resolution 1·eported.

FIRST READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of )fr. Gledson, read a first time.

DISEASES IN STOCK ACTS AND OTHER ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) (12.45 p.m.): I move-

'' That the Bill be now rea cl a second time.''

I do not think any new principles can be usefully introduced into the diSicussion on this Bill. When the Bill was in Committee I think ~we examined it fairly closely.

I think that, f;'Cnerully speaking, the Bill makes a very definite contribution to the cocle that every State must have for tlre proper movement of stock and the adequate control of sto~k diseases. Perhaps the public mind does not generally appreciate the importance of contTol of disease, branding, ancl supervision by my department of the movement of stock and how they protect the stockowner. As new phases of the industry appear, obviously it becomes necessary that we shonld kgislate for them, and safeguard against abu&,3S of new practices. Generally, that may be taken as the basis of the measure I am proposing.

As I instanced during the Cummi ttee stage of this Bill, in the last three or four years there has been a very wide out break of sheep tick and lice in various areas of the State. The hon. member for Aubigny macle the suggestion that these outbre!lks are limited by climatic conditions. I agree with the hon. gentleman that that is quite possible. It is true that favourable weather conditions may favour the multiplication of the sheep tick, but one cannot overlook the rather alarming feature that adaptation, apparently, is making the sheep tick and sheep ked much less vulnerable to unfavourable weather condiditions than in the past. The adaptation of the organism to its environment represents an old axiom that is founded in scientific fact, and in the control of keel, louse, and other organisms of that description it is providing us with one of our major problems. Quite certainly that is taking place in Queensland, and, therefore, I clo not think we can concede wholeheartecllv the statement made by tllC hon. member "for Aubigny, for that would ml'an that we should, like the ostrich, bury our heads in the sand and suggest that no action should be taken to solve them, relying on the hope that nature itself will proYide the control factors that will prevent this pest from ever becoming a major economic menace in the sheep industry. I, personally, should not be prepared to accept that proposition, nor, indeed, would the average sheepowner in the State, because he does realise the tremendous loss that ca,n arise as a consequence of the intrusion of these pests into various parts of the State. Fortunately, however, given adequate control, there . is every reason to believe that the sheep hck ancl lom'e can be adequately controlled, ancl our experience in the last two or three years has indicated very clearly that this contr?l is of a very practicable character. It 1P

186 Diseases in Stock, &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

true that up to the present no control has been exercised legally.

Mr. Moore: Onlinary dipping gets rid of thaH

Tile SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Ordinary dipping gets rid of that, but as matters stand at present we have power to deal with only those things that appear in the schedule in the Diseases in Stock Act. If a disease is not scheduled in that Act, then it is beyond the authority of my department to deal with it. Up to the present sheep tick and louse have not been included in the schedule, therefore any action that may have been taken was not within the ambit of the Act. The Bill is providing the machinery for adequate protection by spraying, dipping, or jetting, as the case may be.

There are people who are not a bit concerned as to the welfare of the industry and of their neighbours. 'l'he whole of our stock industry depends to a very great extent on the arteries we call stock routes. :Jiany of these stock routes are tick-free, but supposing an individual without a proper sense of responsibility takes his very badly infested sheep on the stock routes, then every other mob of sheep that comes along that route within a prescribed period, even up to 70 days, under certain circumstances, is liable to infection.

Let me give an illustration. A man with heavily-infested sheep decided to travel his sheep through one of the leading studs of the State. The stock route ran through the principal ram paddock. 'fhose rams are distributed to many people throughout the length and breadth of sheep-growing Queensland.

3Ir. Moo re: Do you mean to say he made his ram paddock on a stock route~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: It is a subsidiary stock route that runs through that paddock to the chief stock route. After all, we .cannot quite question the management, but it is a fact that this mob of wethers, in order to go to Charleville, would have to traverse a stock route that passed through the principal ram paddock of a very big stud organisation in Central Queensland. If the strict letter of the law had been enforced on that occasion, it would not have been possible to prevent that mob of wethers from travelling through that paddock. It is obviouEI that it required arbitrary action to take adequate measures on that occasion, and those sheep were not permitted to travel until they had been dipped and satisfactorily cleansed of the vermin that was on them. That shows the need, not for arbitrary conb·ol, but for making people do the essential and reasonable thing for the protection of the industry.

I do not know what loss is being inflicted on the industry in Victoria and New South Wales as the result of the incidence of tick and lice, but every sheepgrower in New South Wales who has, unfortunately, had to combat them, will tell rather heartrending stories of what he has lost and what it has cost him.

lUr. JUoore: The tick is almost universal; the louse is not.

The SECRETARY l:<'OR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: It is only within the last t\YO or three years that the sheep louse-1 am speaking of the louse in particular-ha~ found its wav into Central Queensland. Last year there -\vas a very heavy outbreak in Central Queensland. That was brought about probably by the fact that the season had been very dry, and these sheep had gone away on agistment into an area where the tick had become virtually indigenous, and, of course, they returned as hosts. Fortunately, what looked like being a serious! outbreak has been just about cleaned up with the co-operati011 of the owners concerned. Of course, a practice that has to be stopped is the travelling of infected sheep along stock routes, and I am taking authority to bring this type of vermin undel' control so that \Ye can prevent these outbreaks and the widening of infected areas.

Mr. ilioore: By compulsory dipping, or what?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ANn STOCK: Not quite in that: sense.

Mr. 1\Ioore,: But where you find them infected, is it compulsory dipping~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURJ~ ANn STOCK: On the stock route?

lllr. 3Ioore: Yes.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Yes. There is some argument about the relative merits of dipping and spraying. I have looked into these things very closely, and I have taken the attitude that it is a 50-50 problem. If a man wants to jet as an alternative to dipping that appears to be all right; if he wants to dip as an alternative to jetting, that, too, appears to be all right. It is not the method that matters but the result that is obtained. Therefore, ,;.e propose to have dipping and jetting.

Mr. Maher: Before the stock leave the holding~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURFJ ANn STOCK: Yes. I think that is the only sound approach to this question. If badly-infested sheep are ~oil;g to . be allo:vecl to infect stock routes, 1t 1s qmte obvwus that the position is going to get out oi control. No sheep should be permitted to move until they are cleansed, so that they ~will not infect the stock routes.

~Ir. lUoore'; Does that mean that: before any sheep can go on the stock route they haw to be inc pected by the stock inspector •

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Not necessarily. Tl1e man concerned knows very well whether he has ticks or lice on the sheep he proposeJ to move. The sheep themselves very s0on demonstrate the presence of lice.

Mr. 1\Iaher: I think he would do it in any case.

Diseases in Stock, &c., [3 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 187

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Naturally, he would. The suggestion has been made that central dips should be erected along stock routes, but, personally, I do not care for the erection of such dips. I do not think that central dips would make any contribution to the solution of the problem, but would probably extend the trouble. You would broaden your area of infection. The whole question comes back to individual control by the owner of a holding. I believe that this is the correct policy, it is the policy we have been pursuing, and I believe it is the policy endorsed by stockmen generally. I know that sheepmvners ha", e taken a very serious view of this question, and more than one organisation has asked that we take the powers necessary to bring this pest under control.

Mr. Plunkett: New South Wales have a different idea in dealing with the mat,ter.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: New South Wales deals with it through the pastures protection boards. The position is materially the same in New South \Vales as in Queensland.

Mr. Plnnkett: There the Government built dips.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I do not think they did. I think the hon. member is confusing the matter with tick control on the eastern side round Lismore and other places where the Government did build dips. The scheme is subsidised by the Commonwealth, and New South Wales, Queensland, and the Commonwealth Government are parties to it. The hope was that in the years to come ticks would be cleaned up in that part of the State, and the whole of the organisation 'WOUld rome to Queensland with the view to cleaning the ticks up here. So far as I can see, it is quite a laudable scheme, but it has broken do'lm, and only the other day the New South \vales Minister for Agriculture, Major Reid, made the statement that jt was not proposecl to continue with a certain phn ~e of the operations during the present financial year. That is an inSitance in which the Government are finding the money for dips, just as we in Queensland have built many co-operative dips and maintained Government dips. To erect jetting plants or dips on individual holdings would be beyond the resources of this community. I do not think you could expect the Go,·ernment to builcl dips--

!Ir. !Ioore: Nobody wants the Government to build dips on individual holdings.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The hon. member for Albert suggested Government dips--

Mr. Plunkett: I said that a different system was in operation in New South Wales.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: That policy will ultimately be applied to Queensland, but when I do

, not know. The control of the ked and the \louse in New South Wales is under the juris

diction of pastures protection boards and they require that stock shall be clean before they

go on the stock route-the only reasonable way to approach the question of confining a pest to the smallest possible area.

Mr. JUoore: Does the proposed provision apply only to travelling sheep and not sheep on a holding?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: That is a question. Once this provision is included in the Act the Gowrnmcnt would have control in respect to nll sheep so infected. It is not my intention to scnrl officers of my department to the individual properties. After all, if a man is so carelr~s that he is willing to lose sheep by having these vermin on his holding, he has some re'4ponsibility and must clecm his holding so as not to infect his neighbour's property.

The Bill also provides for notice to be given in respect of the introduction of stock into the S'tate. Bear in mind that this provision does not relate in any way to the movement of stock within the State. At the present time there is no obligation on an owner to give notice within , a prescribed period of the introduction of stock fwm outside, and this very frequently leads to disorganisation be~ause sometimes my staff may be called upon at short notice to go and inspect imported animals of whose arrival we have only just hec,ome aware. Therefore, in orcler to help stockowners, as well as to facilitate the work of my department, it is proposed that the prescribed period in respect of which notice of introduction of stock is to be given shall be not less than two days and not more than 14 days. That would enable us to make the necessary arrangements to have our officers at the points where they are required to make the inspection.

lUr. JUaher: That is in relation to sheep having lice.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: No. I have disposed of that subject.

Mr. JUaher: What are you dealing with now~

Tile SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: With the notification of the introduction of stock to the State. Of course, it is quite conceivable that ,the problem of lice might be associated with the importation of rams from overseas. They are subject to examination for obvious reasons, but we do not want to place unduly harassing con· clitions on the importation of stock. As a matter of fact, I think we should encourage people to import stock. We know theTe are diseases in other parts of the world that, fortunately, we have not got in Queensla;1d. That is the justification for our quarantine system. These animals must go into quarantine and we have to make many other arrangements in order to ensure their wellbeing, and in doing that every precaution must be taken against the introduction of disease. Therefore it becomes necessary that the department should know when stock are being introduced but at the present time there is no statutory period of JWtice. As I have said, we now propose to fix a period of not less than two days, and not more than 14 days.


While we have a fairly complete code in respect to the examination of stock, the Act is a little weak in respect of ,the checking of hides. After all, it is hides that give us the clue to identification, or enable us to run down cattle-stealers. Strange though it may appear, we have no power to inspect hides in stores, nor has any offic,er of my department any power to inspect hides in transit.

ltir. Plunkett: The police have that power.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: They have, but they must have good reasons for making the inspection, and probably have to be armed with a search warrant. There is another aspect associated with cattle-stealing and the identification of beasts by means of hides and brandings-a rather serious one, too. Let us say that there is an outbreak of anthrax in New South Wales, and that a quarantine area is established in that State with a gap between it and Queensland. Suppose that we have reason to suspect that hides are coming to Queensland from that infected source. Obviously, it would not be the duty of the police to investigate tha,t matter. It would be the duty of those who were engaged in the work of protecting our stock against an invasion of disease from outside. So the right of inspection becomes very necessary on two scores-to prevent cattle-stealing or the disposal of hides, and to prevent the introduction of disease into our State.

JUr. Maher: Is the power for the inspection of carcasses provided for~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: That power is amply covered in the principal Act. So far as hides are concerned, there appears to be a weakness that precludes our making certain examinations in some places.

We have in recent years introduced the T-branding of travelling sheep.

Everyone will admit, particularly at a time such as this, that everything we can do to further the war effort, no matter how minor a contribution it may be, must be done. We know that the Imperial authorities have purchased the whole of the wool that we are producing in Australia. We know that wool has to be washed, scoured, treated, and so forth. It is desired that we should land that wool in England. in such a condition that it will require the minimum amount of treatment, in order to contribute to the greatest volume of efficiency. It is true that T-branding, necessary as it is in certain instances and in certain places, imposes a further processing, and impairs the fibre of the pelt. If the T-branding, or tar-branding, as it is generally known, can be dispensed with without danger, it is obvious that it should. As our Act stands at the present time, T-branding is obligatory in travelling sheep. I have no power to suspend it. We propose now that, provided the sheep bear the owner's registered paint brand, together with the additional check of the ear mark, that T-branding of sheep be eliminated.

The next principle of the Bill concerns a practice that has been in existence for a great length of time. Recently it has been shown, I think successfully, that it can be obviated. It has been the practiee to issue seasonal permits for the movements of stock. As the law stands, if the hon. member for Murrumba desired to take a couple of horses across the road the law required him to get a permit to do so, and when he wanted to bring those horses back he would have to get another permit. If a person wishes to take his stock to water, legally that person is required to gE-t a permit. Supposing that person has to take his stock to water every day, legally he requires to get a permit daily. That, of course, became an absurdity, so great an absurdity that in the time of my predecessor, the hon. member for Cooroora, a system was introduced by him whereby permits were given for three months, subject to good behaviour. Of course, the chief inspector of stock in the district was the authority who permitted these permits to be issued. He still is the authority. Those permits could also be cancelled by him As I stated in Committee, there is no intention of issuing those permits to grass pirates. A person possessing two holdings half a mile apart from each other might be compelled to shift his stock regularly from one to the other to water them. If it was ;necessary for him to obtain a permit ·first, he would be compelled to spend a great deal of his time on the telephone or going into the nearest township to see the -stock inspector.

We did what we have done without legal sanction. I thought the practice introduced by the hon. member for Cooroora was an excellent one, and I continued it.

There are, however, some cranky people in the world, and quite recently our right to do this thing has been challenged. If it ean be challenged by one crank, I think it may be challenged by other cranks. As the practice is obviously sound, I propose that it shall receive legal sanction in this amendment and my officers shall have the power to issue sBasonal transferring and feeding permits rather than that the people shall be compelled to get them daily.

Mr. Maher: There is no preference to Austmlian Labour Party ticket-holders, I suppose~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: That is quite an unworthy suggestion.

Mr. Clayton: I am not a member of the Australian Labour Party, but I have taken advantage of the three months' permit for years.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I should not suspect that the hon. member was a member of the Australian Labour Party (Laughter), so I very willingly accept his assurance. I do not quite know what the Leader of the Opposition is driving at. If he is trying to be facetious is ill-timed facetiousness; if he has anything in his mind, let him tell this House. I can say

Diseases in Stock, &c., (3 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 189

that I know a member of the Country Party who has taken advantage of this system for years, and it is an excellent system, too.

Mr. Clayton: The Leader of the Opposition is pulling your leg.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Of the two minor amendments contained in the Bill, the first one amends the Dairy Produce Act and the second the Stallions Registration Act, in two minor particulars only. Under our original legislation the Director of Dairying was clothed with certain responsibility in regard to the health of stock. In the process of time, and by a reorganisation, the Director of Veterinary Services was established, and it becomes obvious that if you have to exercise a diseasecontrol plan it should flow through one central authority, in this instance not the Director of Dairying, but the Director of Veterinary Services. This amendment relieves the Director of Dairying of any responsibility in respect of the disease in dairy herds such as tuberculin and glutinisation tests, and transfers that authority to the Director of Veterinary Services. As a matter of fact, ever since the Director of Veterinary Services took up his duties that has been the position, and it works quite satisfactorily.

As to the amendment proposed to the Stallions Registration Act, it will be remembered that the Act provides that the Chief Inspector of Stock shall be the court of appeal in any appeal against the rejection of a horse. That was quite right when the late Major Cory, a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, was in charge. This officer, whose death occurred during recess, made a material contribution to the welfare of the State and laid down a very sound code in respect of the control of ticks in this State -a code that has been followed ever since, and

has met ·with a material degree of success. The State can ill afford to lose such officers. However, the grim hand of time claimed Major Cory, and in the process of reorganisation I personally believe-r want to make this clear-I personally believe the Chief Inspector of Stock should be the Stock Inspector, and the disease equations in my department should be dealt with by the veterinary services. Following that, Mr. Carey, our late staff inspector, was appointed Chief Inspector of Stock, and the veterinary duties that originally were discharged in conjunction with that office by Major Cory were transferred to Professor Seddon, the Director of Veterinary Services. Obviously, you cannot have an appeal to a layman in respect of the rejection of stallions; therefore, it has to lie to a veterinary authority. I can think of no better veterinary authority than the Professor of the Veterinary School at our Queensland University; therefore, the appeal will lie to the Director of Veterinary Services.

It is merely a transfer of authority from a layman to a professional man in each case, and gives the professional man, in this case Professor Seddon, control of the veterinary activities of the department, and the allocation of duties of the officers and the manner

in which they discharge them. The system ha.s been operating for some time, and I thlllk has made a ma.terial contribution to the efficiency of the veterinary servicPs of our State.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (2.30 p.m.): I thank the :Minister for his careful dissection of the Bill, and for the information he has given the House.

There has been some contention as to the wisdon; of appointing a man to the position of Chref Inspector of Stock who is not a qualified veterinary officer. Representations were made to me on the subject, but I have a perfectly open mind on a matter of that kind. It is, of course, a valuable adilition to the State's efficiency to have as Chief Inspector of Stock an officer who has veterinary qualifications also. At the same time, it does not always follow that a veterinary officer, no matter how skilled in ve~erinary work, . 1vould have the necessary sklll to grapple wrth all our stock problems.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: In recent years the position of Chief Inspector of St·ock has become an administrative job and not a professional job. '

Jir: lUAHER: I see that aspect of the questwn, but a man who had been out in the firing-line, so to speak, dealing with the problems that affect stock in all parts of the State as a stock inspector, and who had the neeessary powers of observation adaptability and good knowledge of' stock ":ould •obviously over a period of tune make himself a very valuable officer to take charge of the stock :routes and stock problems. I think there is some merit in having as Chief Inspector of Stock a man 1vho has undergone that training. On the other hand, to· have as such an officer a man who is also a veterinary officer is so much to the good. Of course, "the late Major Cory was extremely well qualified to hold down the position of Chief Inspector of Stuck, and naturally that would give professional men in veterinary services grounds for claiming that they should have first consideration in appointment to a position of that kind.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Major Cory was the first professional man to occupy the position. Prior to that it was occupied by a layman.

lUr. MAHER: I have an entirely open mind on the matter, and I indicated to those who approached me on the subject that I should consider the case entirely on its merits, and if there was a man 1vho combined both qualifications he would be entitled to preference over a man who was a good veterinary officer but who lacked the necessary knowledge and experience of our stock problems and stock routes, and all the things necessary for their close understanding or sympathetic administration. I mention that in passing.

The Bill generally appears to be a machinery Bill, and after a careful study of its provisions I clo not seem to be able to establi'h :my grounds for criticism against


it. Every amendment appears to be justifi·ed by experience, and one of the main pro· visions, the treating of sheep for lice or ticks ·on the property before putting them on the road, I think is really compelling the owner to do his very obvious duty.

Most sheep properties in these days have either a sheep-jetting plant or a sheep dip, and stock would be treated if there was any suggestion of parasites. Obviously, no sheepowner would tolerate lice in his sheep for a moment. He would soon find his source of income dwindling if he did, because his wool would fall away. He would lose no time in taking remedial measures, apart altogether from putting them on the road. If he did intend to travel them, I am sure he would not allow them off his place without giving them close inspection. At the same time, this is a precautionary provision, and it will minimise the chance of infection elsewhere. At present, however, the incidence of lice in sheep is not very great. in Queensland. vVe hear of sheep affected here and there, but the incidence is not great, having regard to the millions that we have in the State. I agree with the wisdom of a provision to tighten up the law so as to minimise the possibility of infection of sheep.

The inspection of hides in stores seems to be a reasonable provision. We cannot cavil at it. Anything that helps in the detection of either disease or crime is desirable. Of course, if we can avoid branding wool it will be so much to the good. The branding of wool, like the branding of hides, is one of the things that have been imposed upon stockowners through fear of loss by theft. To go out on a hot day, with the thermometer running up to llO degrees in the shade, and handle a mob of sheep and put brands on them is certainly not done for the love or fun of it, but because men have found it necessary. However, if we can eliminate the T-branding of travelling stock, as· provided in this Bill, it will be all to the good in that it will help to improve the value of the wool. There is no doubt that the tar stain must entail greater difficulty in scouring and cleaning the wool.

Notice by stock importers of intention to import stock to this State is important, It is essential t.hat incoming stock be examined by competent officers after arrival and before going in to use.

Another important provision is the granting for a period of three months of a permit to stockowners who want to move their stock to neighbouring places for either grass or water. I think the Minister is acting in a perfectly common-sense way there, too.

Taking all these amendments into account, the Bill seems to me to be desirable. It is based on past experience, and the Opposition support iL

Mr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay) (2.39 p.m.): I support the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition. I do not often congratulate the Minister in this House, but I desire to do so on this occasion. He is introducing a Bill that makes for the tightening up of the

control over disease in stock. I have had long experience in stock and know something about stock diseases.

The Minister is doing something of \-alne in the intere;,ts of the children and the adult population of this State ~when he sends his experts through the dairy herds of the State for .the purpQSe of testing them for tuberculosis. He has the power to ascertain which animals suffer from tuberculosis and other diseases, and to prevent milk from such animals going into milk bars and elsewhere for consumption by the public. He is doing something of inestimable value to the future health of the citizens of Queensland. I am sure we all appreciate the work of his department.

I think there should be greater coordination between the Department of Apiculture and Stock and the Department of Health and Home Affairs. Milk for public consumption should be of the purest quality. The Government should have power to see that milk supplied to maternity hospitals, for example, does not come from tubercular dairy caHle. That milk should be c1ra wn from herds that are free from tuberculosis, but I am sorry to say that that is not so at the present time. It is with that objel"t in mind that I say there should be greater coordination between the two c1, partrnents.

The move made by the hon. member for Cooroora when occupying the position now held by the 11inister was a step in the right direction. A dairyman might hrn"e a property situated 6 or 7 miles away from another and by the operation of the three months l permit he is not required to visit the stock inspector every time he "ants to remove stock from one to the other. The inspector can grant him a .three mont!ls' permit, ~which has been a cons1derable sanng to stock-owners.

I have nothing to say against the proposed Bill, and I give it my support.

lir. BEACON (Cunningham) (2.43 p.m.): The Bill before the Committcp is not one to quarrel \vith, as many of the amendments are necessary for the better working of the Act. Generally speaking, I think most of them are necr-ssary, and many things that make for inconvenience to stock-owners are to he wiped out. The Bill will b2 of considerable assistance to stock-owners and its introduction will also help the Government. For those reasons I welcome it.

Mr. PLUNKETT (Albert) (2.45 p.m.): While I welcome the Bill, I should like to point out that lice on cattle are not the menace that some people would have us believe, becau~e lice usuallv appear on very poor and decrepit animals a;1d are not easily transferred to healthy beasts. Therefore, it is only one in many hundreds that suffers from lice unless the ea ttle are herded closely together or are confined to a small yard. However, I thoroughly agree that power should be taken to control this pest.

The Bill gives the Minister power to issue three-monthly permits for the movement of

Brands Acts (3 SEPTEMBER.) Amendment Bill. 191

stock, but in some cases I think the periods should be extended to 12 months. Generally speaking, the dairying industry is conducted along the banks of rivers and creeks, and in 90 per cent. of the cases the grazing land is on the river flats >vhile the home is situated on higher ground on the other side of the river above flood level. On such a farm it is necessary, perhaps, that the cattle should cross the road every day in the year to be watered or milked.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Do you think that those owners take out a permit to enable them to move their stock~

lUr. PLUNKETT: No. However, they are doing something illegal in moving the stock without a ·permit, but they are willing to take the risk, believing that it would be ridiculous and unjust to prosecute them for it. For that reason they do not see the need for a permit.

Tl1e Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Nor do we.

Mr. PLUNKETT: In such cases, where cattle are going backwards and forwards across a road daily on their way to water and back to the pasture, the permit should be issued for 12 months.

However, I thoroughly understand that ehanging conditions affecting the movement of stock and other things niake it necessary to amend the law from time to time to bring it up to date. I also realise that the object of this Bill is to bring the l>~w nT) to date in relation to its application to travbling stock, digeases, and other matters associated with animal life in this State. I eannot do anything else than support the measure.

Motion (Mr. Bulcock) agreed to.

BRANDS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) (3.50 p.m.): I move-

'' 'l'hat the Bill be now read a second time."

In times of depression, unlike post-depression periods, stock are reasonably safe, because it does not pay to steal a beast, and in the majority of cases, a beast stolen under those circumstances is stolen for human consumption by the stealer or by his immediate friends. But the position alters materially when the cattle or sheep induSJtry is more prosperous. It seems to me that high cattle prices induce thieving and low prices restrict the practice, although, of course, the cattle thief is always with us. If my interpretation of the position is correct, the reason for the increasing volume of cattle thefts in this State is the increased prosperity of the industry. Excellent work to prevent cattle-thieving is being done by the police. No-one should, or can, justly depreciate the work that the Commissioner of Police, Mr. Carroll, and his officers and men are doing in this regard, but it is essential that they should be given every possible power, and that every possible instru-

ment should be placed at their disposal, in order to protect our stock.

The whole question of efficiency of police protection and stock control reposes in branding. We have an excellent code of marking and branding stock. It is the only thing that stands between the owner and the thief. It, therefore, follows that every possible care should be given to branding. It is obviously the duty of the State to protect the owner in every way it can. The State has done its duty in the paS\t. Last year, when the commissioned officers of police met in conference-a system introduced by .Mr. Carroll that has produced excellent results-they requested greater powers for the prevention of cattlestealing. They unanimously carried a resolution requesting that I extend the provisions of the Brands Acts to every official and member of the force. At present only such officers as may be nominated by the Police Department and appointed )JY me beco~e inspectors of brands. Obvwusly, that IS

going a long way round to achieve a given object. The police put u~ an exce~lent caseproving their zeal, too, m the discharge of their fairly heavy duties in some parts of ~he State-when they suggested that every pohce officer should be made an inspector under the Brands Acts. In doing that-and I propose to do that under this• legislation-you increase by a very large number the number of men who act as custodians of our cattle and sheep.

~fr. Clayton: Will the police get any additional emolument~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The police do not ask for it.

lUr. Clayton: Will they get it?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The answer to that question is: the police officers are the custodians of certain things. They enforce law aud order, they protect property, th.ey >~ere app~inted ~o do these things aud be It said to theu credit, when they carried this resolution asking that they all be made inspectors, there ~as no ta~k whatever of increas>ed remuneratwn. It IS

refreshing to find that sort of thing occasionally.

Jl'Ir. Clayton: It is very satisfactory.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE 'AND STOCK: I was proceeding to make this point: where we appoint .a poli~emau as an inspector of stock, we give lnm some remuneration for the discharge of that duty.

Mr. Clayton: That is what I was hintiug at.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I am not cutting out that remuneration. It ranges from £5 a year up to in one instance, £50, to a constable st~tioned on the Northern Territory border. That facilitates the administratiou 'Of the Act, but the point is that ~he appointment of eve;y police officer as an mspector of brands Will increaoo their vigilance and their ability to detect stock thefts.

The next provision of the amen.ding Bill may be somewhat more controversial. Hon.

192 Brands Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

members will remember that three or four years ago I introduced an amendment restricting the size of brands. There was a good deal of conflict of opinion about that. Even the cattle-men themselves coulrl not ng:rec. There were two representative leaders in the cflttle industry; both were very good men who knew their job; one said that it was an essentially fair thing to reduce the size of brands, and the other, equally competent, said that it would impose a hardship and ·would lead to cattle-stealing. We have had some experience of it since then. The new system has been in operation for a considerable time. We have got the smaller brands in use. \V e have established markets, and our hides, which were the subject of a great many strictures a few years ago, are now being fayourably received in the purchasing countries, so that we have achieved something.

One hon. member opposite, speaking on this question, asked whether the grower got any more for his hide by restricting the size of his brand. \Veil, I have alwavs felt that he would get more for his hide, ~nd I can say he is getting more for his hide to-dav for the local price is higher t-o-day than in .tl1e days when brands were of indiscriminate sizes.

Mr. 1iiaher: This is war time. It is hard to :find a parallel.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Hide values were uneconomic before the war. If the hon. gentleman will take the schedule of prices at the time I introduced the Bill, and take the schedule for the whole of the 12 months preceding the war, he will find that our hides had a much better reputation than in the earlier days, on account of the lower wastage factor. That position will improve. The cattle that were branded with the old hur;e brands are now joining their forefathers, ·:wherever they may be, consequently we are getting a much sounder branding system. Now I propose to go a step further. I am willing to admit there is a controyersial angle to this question, but I know the war may be won on leather as well as other things, and I feel we have to reduce our percentage of economic waste, particularly in agricultural indusbies. I believe that our agricultural industries will have to apply themselves more zealously to the elimination of economic loss if we are to· survive this war period. Branding does cause some loss.

I think I showed hon. members the size of the brands as they are applied to-day, the 2-inch brand and the 2!;-inch brand. Wh!!l1 we passed that legislation, I made no provision-deliberately so, believing in one job at a time-for limiting the space between brand characters. It sometimes happens that brands are spread out altogether too much, and so yo1,1 do not achieye the objective I set out to achieve by the prevention of waste in the hide and leather industries. I now propose to restrict the spacing between the brands to 1 inch. That will not inflict any hardship, but will prevent waste such as is occurring at present. I think eYery hon. member knows that certain types of hides arc

urgently required for war purposes, and we should not be producing a hide that contains any element of waste. It may be said that the war will be over before the cattle to be branded will be grown sufficiently for marketing. I wish I could predict the termination of hostilities. I am afraid we must compose ourselves to the prosecution of a war that may last beyond our wildest conception, and that it is useless hoping for its early termination and the resumption of peace-time conditions throughout the world.

1\'Ir. Nimmo: You should have a talk with the hon. member for Bundaberg.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I think we have to face facts and the facts are that we are at war. No man can say when it will end, but all men can say that they will contribute what they can to its successful prosecution.

Honourable J)Iembers: Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: And if we are able to placate our consciences, and say that we have done those things that we thought were necessary then, whatever the end may be-and I have no doubt what the end will be-at least we shall have made within our sphere our contribution to the prosecution of a war to uphold the things that we hold dear.

This amendment restricts the spread of the brand to 1 inch between the characters of the brand.

There is also in the Bill a necessary legal clari:fication in respect of the distinctive branding and earmarking of sheep. There is no other signi:ficance in it. It in no way alters the practice we have followed in the allotment of brands, but there is a flaw in the wording of the section. As it stands, it means that an owner may use the brand. It does not attach the ownership to any particular sheep or cattle, and literally that clause means that anv owner can brand any stock. Of course {hat has never been the p1:actical interpretation; obviously, a legal. flaw. cxisteil that was not discovered. Havmg d1scoverecl. it now and also having found the necessity to amend the Act in the directions I have indicated, I thought it a good plan to clear up that ambiguity and to atta~h the ownership to the stock instead of leavmg the owner free to imagine what he owns. I underst.and this frailtv in our legislation has survrvec1 since 1872"; truly one may say, "Better late than never. ' '

We come now to the important phase of the Bill. Every person is concerned to do whatever he can to prevent theft. I frankly hold the view that the stocko>vner should be protected in every possible way and it is the right and duty of the Statt:; to. J?roteet the assets by which he m·.kes hrs hvmg. After all, taking the seasons in and out, good markets and bad markets, droughts anc1 floods, and all that sort of thing, his livelihood 1s by no means as stabilised as. that of the industrialist. That, of course, rs one of the difficulties of farming and one of the reasons

Brands Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 193

why farming does not attract capital in the same way as industry. Anything that we can do to protect the stock of the State or the owners of the stock should be done.

As our code stands at present, we can detain sheep or cattle only if we propose to prosecute. We cannot detain them with a view to establishing evillence for a prosecution. \Ve might detain some stock that had mutilated earmarks or mutilated brands, and then fiml that ''"e had no hope of going· on with the prosecution. Having the stock in our possession, ,,.e should be open to a charge of being illegally in possession of stock. That, of course, would be an untenable po·si· tion, and we propuse taking power to detain stock pending an im·estigation as to whether a prosecution lies. I admit that it is a material departure from our practice up to the present, but I am convinced on the evidence that I am justified in taking this action.

I think I told the House sJmething of a mob of wethers that came under our observation, and that we were unable to hold. Both the police and the officers of my department think that the taking of the proposed power would help consillerably in the detection Df stock-stealing, and I am willing to agree with their contention. At present a man may drive a mob of cattle or sheep into the saleyarrls without a permit and not render himself liable to prosecution. Unle3s there is definite e.-idcnre that will enable us to prosecute, not on the minor charges of mutilation of earmarks, but on the graver and very far-reaching indictment ·of sheep or cattle stealing, we cannot holrl stock. It is decir· able that we have power to hold them pending an investigation. If a man bringB stock along with mutilate('[ earmarks or brands he will then have to take the risk that the stock will be held up until we prove to our satis· faction that he is the rightful owner.

Mr. Phmkett: Suppose he brings them along without brands at all 7

The SECUETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCI{: What does the law say about unbranded stock~ I think it is not com· pulsory to brand stock. I think most people believe that if stock are unbranded at some specified age they revert to the Crown. That is the general theory in the bush, and I beliewd myself at one time that there was an obligation upon the owner to branlt stock. However, as far as I know, there is no ·obligation to brand stock, but the person who does not brand his stock is obviously qualifying as a lunatic. 'l'here may be people who prhaps have a pony round the place-the old mare's foal-and who have not a registered brand, but, after all, that does not matter very much. On the other hand, the man who is in a b1siness for the purpose of making· a livelihood from it would obviously brand his stock, otherwise that stock would be a ma~net to all ill-disposed people within a radius of 100 miles. If stock came along unbranded, I think we should have to accept a statement of ownership, unless the contrary could be proved, but that is a contingenLV that is not likely to arise except in the case of a single horse or cow round the back door.

18-Hl-H

I have never experienced any difficulty in that direction, because all owners are aware of their responsibility. One difficulty that arises is that people sometimes are a little bit too zealous in branding anil borrowing their neighbour's bra nu to pnt on a horse or calf. I have seen a good deal of trouble take place because the person who owned the brand claimed ownership, and it has been very difficult for the true owner of the beast to explain the whole matter.

~iir. Plnnkett: It would be 'Norse if he did not claim ownership.

The §ECRI~TARY FOR AGRICULTURE A~n STOCK: I have seen instances in which two people have fallen ont, and the owner of the registered brand has claimed mmership of the beast.

:JI:r. Clayton: I have seen that happen over a clean skin.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICL'LTURE AND §TOCI{: And the hon. member will probably see it again. However, I do n·ot propose to make people bmnd their stock. I take the view that if they do not brand then it is their Tesponsibility. Of course, hon. members ,,-ill realise that I should not be disposed to waste much of the time of my officers on the protection of unbrandelt stock. Such action woulr1 be construed as being a declaration to certain people that there is an open season for unbranded stock.

'l'he last provision in the Bill is merely one to revoke authority given to justices of the peace. In 1872 our predecessors in this Parliament thought that it 'vould be an excel· le11t thing to put the control of ou~· S~ock Acts under the jurisdiction of the Just 1ces. So, for a number of years, the justices .w.ere charged with the administration and pohcmg of the Brands Act, and, indeed, the Diseases in Stock Act in certain directions. The years rolled by, and the job has becom~ more intricate and more people have beeome JUstices of the peace. There arc; many justices of the peace who have absolutely no knowledge of stock. It seems rather absurd to have justic('S of the pe'lce includell amongst those ~vho should haYc ,jurisdiction in brandi;1g and cleding with diseases in st?ck. Justices of the peace have not ass·oe1ated tllCmsclves with the administration of these Acts for manv years. To be quite frank, they are not 'encouraged to do so, and ~ now propo~e to eliminate the section entHely. ~ t .'':Ill not mean that justices will have no JUdicial power in relation to matters u.nd:r ~h~ Acts, but that they shall have no JUl'lS~lct:on on the administrative sicle. l feel 1t IS ~ar better to confine the aumini,trntiYe duties to the police and my officers. .No doubt, some of our ;justices would be adnnrable people to deal with stock matters, but we have to con· sider the principle as a whole.

::?Ir. DEACO:X (Cunningham) (3.13 p.m.): There is not much in the Bill to quarrel with, but I do not like that part dr,:tling with branding.

The Secretary for Ag-riculture and Stock: I dill not think you ,would.


1\Ir. DEACON: The Minister proposes to impose a very heavy penalty on the person who brands stock if the characters of the brand are more than 1 inch apart. Every owner of stock knows that you can experience great difficulty in branding, and it is quite an easy matter for a brand to be wrongly placed. To inflict a penalty of £50 seems to be out of all proportion to such a small offence as that. I do not agree with the Minister that it is necessary. He should trust the owners o·f stock not to put too wide a brand on stock; they know that a very wide brand affects the price of the hide. Anything can be done accidentally, and an accident such as I have described might occur to any man when branding his stock. The penalty, I repeat, is out of all reason, when possibly the hide of the beast is not worth £5, or even half that amount.

The Premier: Do you think he puts his brand on other people's cattle by accidenU

lUr. DEACON: The penalty is to be hnposed on the owner when branding his DWn stock if he places the characters at a greater distance than 1 inch apart.

The Premier: I am afraid that you have not read the Bill.

1fr. DEACON: I have read the Bill, and what I say is correct. Taking the Bill as a whole, I support it, but I think the Minister is wrong in insisting on a heavy penalty fm something that may arise from an acci·dent and may happen to anybody, especially when branding a young calf. As we know, the calf is sometimes branded very young, and the brand extends as the calf grows. I hope the Minister will not insist upon the infliction of a heavy penalty in such circumstances because no-one can justly say that it is a crime to brand wrongly when it arises from accident.

Mr. Collins: Why limit the size of the brand at all~

Mr. DEACON: No-one wants to see the return of the big brands that were used in the early days.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stoclu When I limited the size of the brands fcmr or fiye years ago you were one of the hon. members who attacked m'e for it.

Itir. DEACON: Because the brand was too small. I want to tell the Minister that he has never enforced that provision.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Oh yes, I did.

Itir. Nimmo: Are you still using your old brand'

Mr. DEACON: I know of thousands of people who are using their old brands.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: They are probably in conformity with the Act.

Mr. DEACON: They are still using their -old brands.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Then their brands must conform to the requirements of the law.

Mr. DEACON: Not necessarily. The Minister should realise that the penalty proposed is altogether too heavy for such a trivial offence.

Mr. Jesson: Why are you stonewalling?

Mr. DEACON: I am not stonewalling; I am trying to get the Minister to see reason. I have very little to quarrel with in the Bill except on that one point. There should be a smaller penalty in respect of a matter where in 99 cases out of 100 it would be the result of an accident.

Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) (3.18 p.m.): The Bill appears to be a reasonable one, although, frankly speaking, I do not see that there is very much in it. I feel that the Minister is looking for more trouble in the industry in restricting the space between the characters of the brand and that very little will be gained thereby. The Bill says that the characters of the brand shall be not more that 1 inch apart, which means that the brand will be in order if the space is smaller than that. A smaller space may lead to a blotched or unsightly brand and one that will be entirely ineffective. Is the Minister going to direct his inspectors to visit the various branding places immediately cattle are branded to see that the brands are in conformity with the law~ If he does not do so it will be very difficult to say how far apart the brands will be spaced.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: They all have to come to the saleyards some day.

1Ur. NBilUO: Of course they have. The Minister knows that if he brands a young calf with brands spaced a certain distance apart and, three years afterwards, sends that beast to the saleyards, the brand will have grown a greater distance apart.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: That is quite true.

2iir. NH.illiO: Is the Minister then going to prosecute a stockowner because the brand on his three-year-old st.ock is more than 1 inch apart~

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: I don't think you understand the Bill.

Mr. NHIJUO: I do. Stockowners, in order to conform with this new legislation, might have their three characters on one branding iron. Many do so now. I have done it myself. The result is that you have a faulty brand, which is never satisfactory.

The Secretary for Agriculture and St{)ck: You should no,t place nwre than two characters on one branding iron.

~Ir. NIItiMO: The best method to be adopted in branding is to have three separate irons. If the three characters are affixed to one branding iron, it often happen_s th~t they are not heated uniformly, r~sultwg_ 111

one or more not giving a c;orrect ImpressiOn.

Brands Acts (3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 195

The Minister, in order to get evenly spaced branding, will force owners to revert to the practice of having three characters on one iron.

Does the :\'l:inister mean to tell the House tha.t any stockowncr will brand a beast and have those brands spaced 2 inches apart~ He recognises that if he does so he depreciates the value of the hide. The enactment of a law limiting the siz<> of the brand is as far as the Minister should go. It is absurd to say, when an owner has roped a young beast and it is kicking and showing restlessness, he should not space the brands on it a greater distance apart than 1 inch under a penalty of £50. That is going :1 little bit t•oo far. I should like to see this Bill passed after the Minister has eliminated that elause. X othing can be gained by it, and it will mean endless trouble to stockowners. In addition, there is the grave danger, as I pointed out, that people will revert to the practice of having three characters on one branding iron, with the result that very unsatisfactory brands will be placed on stock.

JUr. PLUNKETT (Albert) (3.24 p.m.): There is a great deal in what the hon. member for Oxley has said about the results of forcing ownei·s to have one numeral and two letters on one branding iron. In the olden days that method was adopted fairl:;· generally. It had the effect, if the iron was overheated, or unevenly heated, of producing a blotched or defective brand. If the Minister fm·ces this Bill through with a clause providing that the characters must not be spaced more than 1 inch apart, in order to protect the hide, I am afraid that it will not work out in practice as he expects. I say, emphatically, that, after 12 months from branding, no person would be able to swear at what distance the brands were spaced at the time of branding, for as the beast grows so' will the spaces between the characters increase. If I was prosecuted f01· not branding a beast, as prescribed by the Act, noone in the community could proYe that I had not conformed to it. The Minister would have no possible chance of proving the case.

The Premier: In that case, as the charge could not be proved, the penaltv w·ould not apply.

Itir. PLUNKETT: You could not prove it.

Tlte Premier: The onus of proof is on the prosecution.

3Ir. PLUNRETT: Yes, but in the meantime the Minister is putting him to _a good deal of trouble. I maintain it is impossible for the Crown to prove it. The Bill also imposes a penalty of £50 for something that he might not do intentionally.

In branding it is very easy for the iron to s'lip and there may be more than 1 inch between characters. I think that £50 fine is ont of all proportion to the offence that might be committed. I appreciate the sincerity of the Minister in endeavouring to preserve the quality of the hides, but I maintain that this Bill seeks to impose obligations on the stockowners-obligations in which they cannot see any wisdom-and it would be impos-

sible for the department in any case to make them carry it ont. I think the provision should be eliminated, as impracticable, or at any rate the amount of the fine should be reduced by at least half.

liir. ]}IAHER (West Moreton) (3.27 p.m.): I cannot come to any other conclusion than that the Minister by these repeated amendments of the Brands Act seems to be more concerned for the interests of the tanners and dealers in hides than the interests of the cattle-owners. There has been an outcry by purchasers of hides for an improvement . in branding. Obviously the purchaser of hides wishes to get as much of the hide in good condition as he can, \Yhilst cattle-men are concerned with the safety of their cattle. 'l'hese two interests cannot be reconciled. ''East is East and West is West; and never the twain shall meet." Neither shall the interests of the cattle-owners on the one hand and the tanner and hide-purchaser off the other. So the only thing is to have some consideration for the major interest-the need for preserving the safety and security of the cattle on the holdings throughout the State. Every time a brand is reduced in size it means that 'the visibility of the brand is interfered \Yith. It becomes increasingly difficult, especially when cattle are carrying a fair amount of· hair in the winter months, to discern the brand at all· therefore, it becomes more difficult for the terms and conditions of the Act to be carried into effect. It is rather a pity the Minister brings along to one Parliament after another amendments that have that effect, even although he may not intend it.

'l'here is no doubt the cattle-owners-as has been stated during debate after debate in this House-have to contend with the everincreasing problem of cattle-thie_ving. What the Minister said this afternoon IS very true. ·with increasing values for stock come increasing problems for stockowners. As cattle increase in value from £5 to £10 and from £10 to £15 so increases the envy of the cattlethief. and' his desire to possess those cattle, which are now worth so much more money. Men are willing now to run all manner of risks to get posses~ion o~ cat!le. ~her~for~. coming at a time hke this, this l~g1s_latwn IS most inappropriate inasmuch as It mcreas~s the manifold tasks of the stockowners m exercising vigilance against those who engage in cattle-thieving.

I reO'ret the :Minister has decided to legislate fo::' a further restriction in the size of brand: characters. In 1937 we had an amendment for a reduction in the length of the br~nd. Even that proposal met with very senous resistance from this side of the House, particularly from the experienced cattleowners on these benches. As I moved about the country the many cattle-men who spoke to me about that legislation were _apprel;ensive as to the effects of the reduction. Now \VC have this amendment, which seeks to restrict the size of the brand still further by establishing the maximum distance of 1 inch between charadcrs. That, of conrEer must play eventually into the hands of those


who try to defeat the ends of justice. It certainly will not be a scrap of help to thof'e engaged in raising cattle. It might be said that it will give satisfaction to thosf' interested in hides, but it gives no satisfaction to the producers.

As to the Minister's contention that hide v;,lucs have appreciated because of the lesser damage to the hide, I admit there has been an appreciation, but it has taken place because of the general rise in values because of om agreements with the British Govern· ment since the war. Prior to the war hide prices were not as high as subsequently, lmt l ;·en within the past few weeks there has been a great depreciation in values, and in fact this seriously affected values at the Cannon Hill markets only several weeks ago. In a circular recently issued by the stock· lHokers of Brisbane it was stated that hides had deteriorated in Yalue by 25 per cent. on earlier war values. It is rather hard to make a comparison under these emergency conditions owing to the fayourable agreements that have been made between the British Go;·ernment and our exporting industries since the commencement of the war, but I am well sa tisficd from my experience before the wnr that the restrict ion in the size of the brands and the le~ser damage done to the hides in consequence had little or no bearing on the prices of hides in the open market in this eity and elsewhere in Am,tralia, ::md I am just as well satisfied that when normal times come again there will be no added value to the producer of the hides because of this further restriction in the size of brands. There will be no advantage to the man who produces the hide. There may be some slight advantage to those who deal in hides, but great damage is beinR" done to one of our basic industries, one of our important export industries, and the Dill leaves those who produc'l the cattle to the mercy of those persons in the community who are constantly in conflict with law and order. Again I greatly regret the MiniskT 's decision in this important matter. vVe shall have something more to say in Committee concerning the principle involved.

AnotheT important aspect of the Bill is that relating to the apparent exclusion, from his proper rights and privileges, of the real owner of stock that have been seized. The Bill contains a reference to both the o;;-ner and person in charge of stock that have been seized. It says that they shall be liable for the payment of expenses incurred by the inspector. I read that to mean that a liability rests on the owner of stock amongst which have been found stock believed to have been stolen. Therefore, the whole of this amPndment is based on the assumption that the owner is the man who puts stock in eharge of a drover who might possibly pid{ up or even steal other stock on the road, anr1 then have the whole of the stock, including the stolen stock, seized. I cannot see any proYision in the Bill that takes into account the interests of the real owner of the stock. ThPre does not seem to be any provision unrler which the real owner of the stolen stock can be looked for.

The Secretary for Agriculture and St{)ck: He ahYays is in practice.

lUr. MAHER: It is obvious that he should be, but there is nothing in the Bill to say that he shall be. As a matter of fact, the whole principle involved gives the inspector of stock the right to seize cattle or sheep believed to have been stolen, and, if necessary, advertise them for sale in the paper circulating in the district in which they have been seized. Then, after the srale of the stock, all expenses incurred by the inspector, including the cost of the advertisement are to be charged against the proceeds of the' sale, and any balance is to be given to the owner, but in this case the owner is not the owner of the :flock of sheep or herd of cattle that was entrusted to the charge of the drover, and there is no reference to the actual owner of the stolen stock, no provision as to whether he shall be communicated with and as,ked if he would like the sheep back before action is taken to sell them.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: There is provision for that in the principal Act.

:lir. ThiAIIER: It is set out here rather as thouO'h the actual o'vner, the man who owns the ;tden stock, were not to be provided for at all.

I do not think it is fair that the expenses of the inspector should be charged against the stolen stock. They should not be a charge against the stolen &tock any more than the expenses of the police in a theft case should be a charge against the owner of the goods that were stolen.

The Secretary for J.gricuHure alld Stock: That rloes not mean the salary of the inspector; it means agistment, costs and so on.

1\Ir. ~IAHER: We have got to take the Bill ns it is. The wordsr used are that the expenses incurred by an inspector in detaining the stock shall "be a charge against the owner. A police officer or detective incurs expenses, such aS' the hiring of motor cars in order to apprehend those ;vho engage in theft. An account is not sent afterwards to the owner of the goods by the Commissi.oner of Police f~r the expenses involYed. If It were, then obviously the owner would, in many cases, prefeT losing the goods to making a complaint, and in that way encouragement would be given to thie~es. In this instance, a policeman is vested w1th the powers of a stock inspector, a~d, if he o·oes along in his capacity as stock mspector ~nd seizes stock, the costs involved can be eh:n~ed by him against the owner of the stock and taken from the proceeds of the sale. Taxes are being collected from stockowners to-dav in a hundred and one different ways. The instances in which stock are seized by an inspector are not frequent, m~d I th~nk such matters might be undertaken m the mterests of iustice and the costs borne by the Crown in 'the sa~1e wav ns in ordinary police and rletecti-ce ;York. •

There nre points in the Bill that have some merit; in Committee we shall go more fully

Brands Acts, &c., Bill. [3 SEPTEMBER.] Fruit Marketing, &c., Bill. 197

into that part Telating to the restTict.ion in the size of branding to which the Opposition takes objection.

JUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (3.41 p.m.): I \Yom1er whether the Premier will supply the Opposition benches some day with about two more desks•. If they were here we could certainly use them; we have to hold these heavy books in our hands and nurse them, so to speak.

It is irritating to stockowners to know that ewry session of Parliament brings about little amendments to the Acts dealing with stock to bother them. In perusing the Bill I find that certain sections of the principal Act are to be amended, if the House agrees. I realise, of course, that a magistrate can fine an offender 2s. if he so desires, but the Bill refl'rs to the infliction of a penalty not exceeding £50. I hope the Minister will exercise his discretion and have that amount brought down to £25 by to-morrow.

I have no objection to the part of the Bill that states that a police officer should have the power of a stock inspector. As a matter of fact, police officers are doing the work of inspectors in many parts of the State where there are no special stock inspectors. I know that the depaTtment cannot be sending stock inspectors to every little place in the State. The Police Force of 30 years ago had such men as the late Sergeant John Power, of Charleville, and later of Toowoomba, and the lnte Rorlv Bvrne-men who were able to rirle the rang-es a;H1 follow cattle-duffers on horseback. When the Estimates of the Department of Henlth and Home Affairs are being dealt with I shall refer to the question of police generally. It appears to me that police are heing tl·aineil now to chase burglars round the cities; the bushmen seem to have departed. The police are not being encouraged to study bushcTaft. Years ago they were ready and willing to camp under a gumtree on the banks of the Upper y;Tarrego, go after the cattle<1uffcrs, anc1 they knew what a brand ·was.

I think that the men in the large areas wonlr1 prefer to lose the hide Tather than tlw benst. It is contended by many cattlemen of exp cricnce that v·here people have brandcrl stock low down on the shoulder or thig·h they ftTC not receiving extra for the hi a e.

There is no doubt that the ::\1inister has given clue attention to the value of hides. I know that his intentions in respect of these matters aTe i-;'ooc1, and that he has done much to help the -primary industries, bnt I feel th•,t at times he i:" perhaps over-zealous about them, ana is led e<way by things that are unnecessary. It is the opinion of most of the hig C<lttle stations that the chamcteTs of the bTanrl should not be less than 2 inches in depth.

The Secretary for Agriculture mHl Stock: They are not.

I\Ir. YEJ .. 'I'ES: I know that, but they also say that the space between the characters should not be less than H inches, to prevent blotching. The object of the

Bill is to shoTten the space between the characteTs of the brand, but I should like to remind the ;',Iinister that characters like "B," "}vi," "N," "P_,'' and "R" are more apt to blotch than '' C,'' '' D,'' '' L, '' "0," "U," "2,'' and "O.'' I a1n sure that if growers in the settled areas were given advice concerning the value •O•f hides, they would take more care in the branding of their cattle, but the big areas, such as Carpcntaria, Downs, Natal Downs, and the stations that were once owned by the Government-stations that thev should never have owned-should be left to their own devices. I shall deal with the Bill in greater detail in Comn,ittee.

;'.lotion (:\Ir. Bulcock) agreed to.

FRUI'r MARKETIN<i- ORGANISA'riON AC'rS AMENDMEN'r BILL.

SECO~D READI~G.

The SECRETARY l<'OR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock,.Barcoo) (3.47 p.m.): I mow-

'' That the Bill be now read a second time.''

This is a Bill of two principles. The first is to give the Committee of Direction of Fruit ::\Iarkding po1;·er to invest £5,000 in war fumls free of interest for the duration of the >mr and six months thcreaiter. I think it was the Learler d the Opposition who said that this was a very laudable intention. I understand that the Committee of Direction intends to cal'l'y its pmpose into effect as soon as it has the necessary legal authority. It is doubtful whether it has at present. The Crown Solicitor is of the opinion that it may be possible to achieve the purpose by an Order in Council, but there is some doubt about it. It is essential that we shoultl phce financial transactions of , uch oTganisations on a sound and secure lq;al footing.

I join with the Leailer of the Opposition in expressing my own pers,onal gratification that an •Organisation such as the Committee of Direction should have risen to the occasion, and be willing to make some of its funds available for the purpose I have mentioned. It is quite possible that other producer organisations may follow its example. At the last annual meeting ,o,f the Council of Agriculture it was decided that £250 of its funds should be made available as a war loan free of interest for the period of the war and six months afterwards. There is no legal power at the present time to validate the action of the Council of Agriculture.

The only other provision in the Bill is an amendment t{l the existing Act, which provides that in every fruitgrowing district declared by the Committee of Direction there shall be constituted a local association of growers, and that the Committee of Direction shall fix the boundaries of the district in which each association shall operate. Actually, except in one instance, the boundaries of local authorities have been chosen, but such boundaries were taken to include the boundaries of hon. members. That

198 Fruit Marketing Organisation [ASSEMBLY.l Acts Amendment Bill.

does not apply so far as the deciduous sec~ion of the fruit industry at S'tanthorpe IS concerned. Some Yery grave defects in the Act were reyealed in the 1939 election. These should be corrected before the next election takes place. The position is that the Committee of Direction, having no local knowledge of the boundaries asked the then sectional group committee t~ determine the boundaries. In practice, this meant that it asked the people who were most interested in the retention of their seats to define their own boundaries for the purposes of their own election. 'l'hat is entirely wrong. When it came to proclaiming those boundaries a good deal of juggling took place between the members of one association and another. That was not in the ~est interests of everybody con.cerned. Jugglmg of that description is entire~y wrong ~nd s_hould be prevented. The Committee of DireCtiOn, through the sectional !'roup, knew the position, but considered Itself bound to accept the recommendations fo the local sectional group. I do not want the same position to arise again. There will be elections in June next, and it is desirable to amend the Act, not to withdraw from the Committ_ee ?f Direction the right to fix the b?undanes. m the first instance, but to pr,o'VId~ that m tl;e event of disputes or complamts conce~mng tl<e _boundaries proposed by the Committe,3 of Direction the Minister may appoii;t a person to recommend how the bo~ndanes shall be fixed, and such recommend:;tbon_s shall be accepted by the Oommittee of DirectiOn.

IIIr. NI~~LIN (Murrumba) (3.43 p.m.): As . the Mmister ~as said, this Bill is quite <; .simpl.e one1 ha:vmg two provisions only. I JO;tn With h;m :n congratulating the Committee. of Direchon on its action in seeking to a.ss.Ist the <;ommonwealth ·war effort by obtammg permission to make £5 000 of its surplus money available as an i;Iterest-free loan. The Minister is wise in makinO" this necessary amendment to give power t~ any other commodity board that would like to f~llow. the lead of the Committee of Duectwn.

It might be said that commodity boards should return any surplus to the growers, DY those responsible for contributing that ~urplus .. I should, therefore, like, for the mf?r;nat10n of hon. members, to explain the :position of. tht; Committee of Direction. It IS an orgamsat10n having many ramifications and, unlil~e a. public company, does not ask for contnbubons of capital from its members-in other words, the growers. The present fixed capital of the Committee of Direction ~s £?0,000, the majority of this amount bemg mvested in activities such as banana-ripening rooms.

The Premier: You got that capital from the growers.

. lir. NICKLIN: Exactly, as I will explain m a moment.

-!'-s I was explaining, the great bulk of this mo:1ey has .b~e;1 invested in carrying on the vanous acbvitles of the Committee of Direction, such as the establishment ·O•f ha.nana-ripening rooms, for the convenience

of growers. As the Premier interjected that money was obtained from the grower; bnt not to their detriment. '

The greater part of its revenue is obtained from ~he surplus on fruit transport. The Committee of Direction carries out the trans:port of all fruits interstate, and by carrymg them at bulk rates it gets cheaper rates than individual growers can get, and so .makes a surplus that is given to the vanous sectio'!ls comprising the Committee of Direction. Each of those sections has fixed an amount of capital that it considers sufficient for its activities, and any amount of capital over those fixed amounts is returned to the growers. Actually the capital account is determined on a v·oiuntary basis. As soon as it exceeds the amount agreed upon by the various groups it is returned to the growers. The whole of the finance of the committee is worked on that principle. The profits made from its trading activities, as in the wholesale fruit market, are also returned tu the growers when there is a surplus in cash over the money it has invested in its activities. It is part of this money that it desires to invest in the Commonwealth war effort, for which it should be commended. Perhaps this money might have been invested in Queensland if it had not been for a little difficulty with the Railway Department and the advent of the war. The committee offered to lend some money to the Railway Department to improve transhipping facilities at Clapham, but, unfortunately, the department did not accept that offer; and when the war started the committee decided to invest it in the interest-free war loan.

The second provision in the Bill, I think, is a very necessary one, indeed. As the Minister stated in connection with the deciduous committee selected last year, some difficulties cropped up because the deciduous section or group committee, which had an idea of local conditions, :fixed the boundaries, and the Committee of Direction, not having an intimate local knowledge, followed the common practice in the fixing of boundaries and agreed to the boundaries fixed by the sectional group committee. The result was a considerable amount of dissension in the Stanthorpe district. The organisation got the backwash from that dissension, and the Bill will enable the Minister to appoint an arbitrator to settle disputes without the organisation's having to bear the brunt of those disputes.

It is very easy fm difficulties to crop np in the fixation of boundaries. Take closelysettled areas on the near North Coast, such as Nambour, Palmwoods, and "\Voombye, representing three separate electorates in the pineapple sectional group. The growers in those areas more or less interlock, and some growers belonging to the N ambour association or Nambour electorate are actually nearer to Woombye than Nambour, yet they are centred at Nambour, and they are included in the N ambour electorate. Owing t,o' the closely-settled nature of the district there is the uossibility that a difficultv may crop up theie in the near future, a1id it is far better that a provision such as this should be made so that any disputes that may occur

Death of Mr. J. P. Keogh. [4 SEPTEMBER.]

will be referred to an independent arbitrator, rather than that the organisation shall bear the whole brunt of them. After all, as vou are aware, these little local difficulties create a considerable amount of dissension; if they can be obviated, as they will be by this umendmcnt, that is a good reason why it should be supported. I have very much pleasure, indeed, in supporting the two provisions of the Bill.

~lotion (Mr. Bulcock) agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT.

The PREliHER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) : I move-

'' That the House do now adjourn.''

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Before submitting the motion for adjournment to the House I desire to draw the attention of hon. members to a newspaper report of proceeding!:! in the House this morning. The Premier rose to a point of order, and while he was stating the point the Leader of the Opposition is supposed to have interjected, '' Heil Hitler! A new dictator.'' I did not hear the remark at the time. I heard a voice, but I did not hear actually what was said. I certainly think that the term, '' Heil, Hitler n applied by one hon. member to another is highly insulting, and I do not think it is too late for the hon. gentleman to withdraw that remark.

1\Ir. MAHER: Mr. Speaker,--

lUr. SPEAKER: Order! I cannot allow any discussion. I just ask for a withdrawal.

1\Ir. JIAHER: Mr. Speaker, I have no wish to compare the hon. the Premier with Herr Hitler. 'fhe term was used on the spur of the moment at a time when I thought the Premier had not been quite fair to the Honse. Neverthcle~s, I recognise that it is not a parliamentary expression, and I desire to withdmw it. If it has offended the Premier in any >Yuy, I also apologise.

i\iotion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 4.2 p.m.

Questions. 199

legislative assembly hansard 1940 - parliament of … assembly tuesday, 3 september 1940 electronic...

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