is gestalt therapy more than an empty chair?

Speakers:

Mr Clinton Power Founder and Website Concept Developer www.AustraliaCounselling.com.auRelationship Counsellor for Individuals and CouplesClinical Counsellor and Gestalt Therapistwww.ClintonPower.com.au

Ms Ashleigh WoolridgeMaster’s Gestalt TherapyDirector of Training & Operations, Gestalt Therapy Sydney www.GestaltTherapySydney.com

www.AustraliaCounselling.Com.Au

Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair?

[START OF AUDIO]

Clinton Power: Hello! This is Clinton Power from AustraliaCounselling.Com.Au. And I’m

here today with my colleague, Ashleigh Woolridge, who is a Gestalt Therapist based in Sydney.

She is the Director of Training at Gestalt Therapy Sydney. She has a background in

rehabilitation of addictions.

She was formally the Clinical Director at South Pacific Private Hospital, renowned

rehabilitation centre in the northern beaches of Sydney. And she has an interest in body

practice and has a Master’s in Body Inclusivity in Gestalt Therapy.

So welcome, Ashleigh, great to have you on the call.

Ashleigh Woolridge: Thanks for having me, Clinton.

Clinton: It’s lovely to have you here. I wanted to do this interview you today just to

really expose the members of Australia Counselling to some of the foundational principles of

Gestalt Therapy. Many members may have only touched briefly on Gestalt Therapy in their

training.

So hope we can just bring more awareness to the members about what Gestalt Therapy

is and what isn’t, as well. So maybe to begin with, can you just say briefly what is the

philosophy and theory of Gestalt Therapy?

Ashleigh: Sure. Well, first of all I’m happy to hear that your interest is around sort of

spreading some more information about what the contemporary Gestalt Therapy has of

evolved to. Because I think there are quite a lot of misconceptions about Gestalt Therapy that

are sort of hangovers from the 60s about it being heavily processed oriented psychotherapy

and so on, which in many ways it is still is, it’s heavily experiential.

Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? of 172012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

However, it’s also very grounded and influenced by quite a lot of philosophical

underpinnings as well as therapy, psychology, etc.

In essence, Gestalt Therapy was founded at a time when there was a strong emphasis in

contemporary psychoanalysis and objectifying the client’s pathology. Whereas, Gestalt

Therapy came from more of a phenomenological perspective.

Some of the influences of Husserl and Heidegger, and even going back to French

phenomenologist—it’s always a tricky word to say—Merleau Ponty, which included the body in

psychotherapy. So Gestalt Therapy was very interested in awareness. Fritz Perls emphasised

body awareness and spoke about how important it was to spend time on a daily basis, tracking

in body sensations and using awareness as a tool for change.

So I guess you could say the essence of Gestalt Therapy is very focused on the

awareness base in the “here and now.” Some of the other influences into Gestalt Therapy were

around Zen Buddhism and that’s where it gets its here-and-now approach from. So it certainly

attends to unfinished business from a person’s history but I would say that the doorway to a

person’s history is based in the here-and-now.

So rather than spending an inordinate amount of time trodging through somebody’s

history, we would be more looking at how does the person’s history present a problem for

them in their life here and now and go with that.

Clinton: That’s a great point, Ashleigh. I think it’s what makes Gestalt Therapy such a

dynamic and lively therapy is the here-and-now focus. Just on another point you mentioned,

for those therapists who maybe don’t know, what’s a simple explanation of what this

phenomenology is?


Ashleigh: Okay, phenomenology is actually a method. We call it the Phenomenological

Method. So rather than what my meaning of an event might be, a phenomenological enquiry

would have a look at what the client’s meaning of an event may be.

We’re constantly trying to understand the client’s perception and meaning of the world.

So the Phenomenological Method includes that line of enquiry that is curious. We bring a

curiosity to the work to understand the client in their world and the client’s perception of their

world rather than imposed perception. Does that make sense?

Clinton: Yes, it does. As a therapist you try to remain very curious about the experience

of the client rather than be too heavily interpretive of what you think is going on for them.

Ashleigh: Exactly. So this lends itself from some of the influences of existentialism as

well. So existentialism has that in common with Gestalt Therapy, the phenomenological

approach.

Clinton: Yes. How would we tell if we were watching a Gestalt therapist working with a

client? Let’s say, we were sitting in a room watching a session unfold, are there any particular

observable signs that would indicate someone’s using a Gestalt Methodology? I know you’ve

mentioned the here-and-now.

Ashleigh: Yep. It’s interesting question because one of the founders of Gestalt Therapy,

Laura Perls, said that, “There are as many styles of Gestalt Therapy as there are Gestalt

therapists.” So it would certainly be relevant to include in asking that question the particular

Gestalt therapist that was doing the work.

But that in itself brings about the point that it’s a 2-person therapy. There are more

contemporary Gestalt Therapy has included some of the intersubjectivity theories which pay


attention to the influence of the therapist on the client, and explore the relational dynamic that

happens between the client and therapist.

So you may see a conversation occurred between a client and therapist about how the

client is experiencing the relationship between the diad. You might also though in that see the

therapist drawing attention or awareness to the client’s embodied process which may be non-

verbals, sematic nuances, that kind of thing.

Gestalt Therapy in its origins was known for its work with experiments. So we would

use experiments, and Fritz Perls was very dynamic with his use of experiments to raise

awareness. One of those experiments that was very popular and that seems to have become

linked with Gestalt’s reputation was around the empty-chair, which was a wonderful

experiment of talking to somebody who wasn’t there or an aspect of yourself what Fritz Perls

talked about as being disowned selves and placing them in an empty chair and having a

conversation with them.

So you may see any of those kinds of forms of experiments happening in the work. But

the relationship between the client and the therapist for a more contemporary approach has

become the experiment in it of itself. That there is more attention paid to the relationship

between the client and the therapist is a microcosm reflection of the macro for the client’s

world.

So usually, whatever the client experiences in the here-and-now with the therapist will

in some way reflect how they are in the world outside of the therapeutic exchange. And if they

can bring that into awareness increasingly so, that awareness actually gives them a whole lot

more choice in their world because the client isn’t going to be just operating from a default,


unaware, unconscious position and constantly creating the same results in their world without

awareness. So that’s where the awareness focus would be a key in the work between the two.

It is a very dynamic work. Some Gestalt therapists do include touch, some include body

work, some will be moving around in the room as part of those experiments. It’s not

necessarily just two people sitting and talking and at times it is as well.

Clinton: Yeah, that sounds like a really good point as well that there are so many

different types of Gestalt therapists and the approaches you might witness could be vastly

different—

[Crosstalk]

Ashleigh: Exactly.

Clinton: —therapist. I’m also particularly interested when I speak to therapist about

Gestalt therapy they go, “Oh, the empty chair.” And I think you’re quite accurate this link is

being made from the early days of Gestalt Therapy which is certainly the work of Fritz Perls, he

was a controversial figure.

But how accurate do you think it is today that the empty chair is a description for

Gestalt Therapy.

Ashleigh: I think it’s about 10% perhaps even less of what we do now. Because as I

said, we’ve been influenced increasingly in the last 60 years on things like intersubjectivity

theory. The empty chair was very much, like you said, a dynamic experiment which Fritz Perls

was popular for, but the emphasis was very much on the client.

So there wasn’t very much attention paid to Fritz Perls as—for example, the therapist’s

influence on what was happening in the room with the client and the therapist. So it is funny


when people say, “Oh, yes, I do Gestalt Therapy. I talk to an empty chair.” It’s an experiment

and it is a very small part of what Gestalt Therapy has become now. I think it’s worthwhile kind

of looking a bit more broadly at the relational aspects of Gestalt Therapy is much more than the

empty chair approach. So much now.

Clinton: Yes. And what I’m hearing you say is it’s one aspect of a large theory

methodology and not necessarily representative of all of Gestalt Therapy certainly

contemporary practice as you’re speaking about as well.

Ashleigh: That’s right.

Clinton: I’m curious to hear more about how you see Gestalt Therapy practice being

different today than perhaps it was a few decades ago, maybe even 10 years ago, like, you’ve

mentioned intersubjectivity and I’m guessing that’s something which is quite new that’s

influenced the few in recent years.

Can you say more about what are the changes you’ve seen Gestalt Therapy undergo?

Ashleigh: Well, I think that as intersubjectivity theory has come into influence Gestalt

Therapy through people like Donna Orange and Lynne Jacobs, there is much more sophisticated

approach to tracking the exchanges that happen in the relationship between the client and the

therapist, rather than just paying attention to what the client is experiencing and some of that

may have been about something that was outside of the therapeutic relationships.

So focusing on perhaps what was called “unfinished business” and using those

experiments to perhaps have a conversation with one’s mother that they never got to have

before they died or something like that is a wonderful aspect to the experiment side of Gestalt

Therapy. But I’m thinking in the current climate, the awareness and work that we do is a lot


more grounded in the here-and-now between the client and the therapist. And which has been

the influence of the intersubjectivity theory.

Clinton: Great! What populations can Gestalt Therapy be effectively practiced with?

Are there any other populations that contraindicated for Gestalt Therapy?

Ashleigh: No. But I think it’s quite an inclusive therapy across the board because it is

very broad in its application. So certainly there are Gestalt therapists who work very effectively

with children and adolescents, and people with different mental health disorders and so on as

adults it can also be effective.

I think one of the beautiful things about Gestalt Therapy is that because it comes from a

strong field theory perspective where rather than pathologising an individual, we have a look at

the field conditions that are influencing how certain client might be presenting. So for example,

what’s happening in their family, their immediate relationships, their culture, as well as what’s

happening in the room between the client and the therapist. This is what we call a “field

perspective.”

So if we’re going to look at it from that perspective, then it really is applicable to so

many different populations because it’s quite malleable in that sense.

Clinton: Yes. I’m also curious to ask you about the Gestalt Therapy Training Program,

because of course you being the Director of Training of Gestalt Therapy Sydney, you’re right

there in the thick of it. But I’m also—there may be therapists that are listening, their curiosity is

being piqued by our conversation as well.

So can you give us some kind of idea what’s involved in becoming a Gestalt therapist?


Ashleigh: Sure. Well, first thing I say that Gestalt Therapy Training is something that is

quite a big international community. In Australia, there are about 400 practicing Gestalt

therapists that are members of GANZ. And then that links into—there are training institutes in

Los Angeles, New York, Russia, Paris, New Zealand of course, London, and many other countries

throughout the world. It still has a significant substantial training, following.

So the training centre, Gestalt Therapy Sydney that we have here offers a Masters of

Gestalt Therapy. And the training is a combination of experiential learning and very focused on

personal development. Seeing that as a prerequisite to then the building blocks that come in

later in the training around looking at how the theory links solidly to the practice and how it’s

so important to be able to have a very thorough understanding of yourself in the world in order

to be then coming from a place of setting yourself up to support another.

So as I said, there’s a strong influence on personal development. And then in later years

of the training—it’s a 4-year training, that’s 600 hours over four years, there becomes an

increasing emphasis on the practice looking into the literature, looking into theory from a

comparative perspective across other modalities as well, and then working towards translating

that into being available to practice in the community in their private capacity or as an

employee in many different locations.

There are Gestalt therapist working in quite a lot of different community organisations,

health organisations and things like that, but I’m aware of now as well.

Clinton: So the training gives you quite a broad access to going down a number of

different routes.


Ashleigh: Yeah, from the career perspective, that’s right. Obviously, a lot of people

decide to set up some kind of private practice, but there’s always the benefit of working in the

community once graduated to gain that kind of experience anyway. And so there are quite a

lot of pathways into different organisations. For example, drug and alcohol rehab centres,

places like South Pacific, and people out there Gestalt Therapy is a very popular approach.

Clinton: What are the benefits of someone studying Gestalt Therapy over perhaps

someone who wants to do a more kind of academic course or even have some colleagues that

because of the Medicare rebates have been really king of compelled to go back to university

and try and get a psychology degree.

So when you kind of line these courses up against each other, what would you say some

of the benefits of someone choosing Gestalt Therapy training?

Ashleigh: Well, I think as anything it’s always the varying individual selection process

that people put their time and resources into what they want to kind of do with their lives and

their time. I think that Gestalt Therapy training attracts people who are interested in not only

being trained to be a solid helping professional, but also to include your own personal

development process in that journey.

So you can’t become a Gestalt therapist without having to take a very long on-going,

hard look at yourself throughout the training and beyond, particularly within the training

program and in the early phases. So I think whether that’s a benefit or not that’s what the type

of people that get attracted and certainly stick with the training.


I think that sometimes people who are more interested in doing psychology or one of

the courses that are offered by other education providers that don’t include any personal

development and personal reflection as part of the training. There are two aspects with that.

Yes, certainly, they may set themselves up as a psychologist to get Medicare rebates and

so on. I suppose there’s something around the question of job satisfaction comes into it as

well. And I also noticed that myself being in private practice as a Gestalt therapist for nearly 15

years now and having seen and weathered the Medicare rebates storm that kind of hit

psychotherapists, I’m noticing that a lot of people go to see psychologists and do their allocated

10 sessions, but don’t actually feel that their needs get consistently met and so end up

engaging the psychotherapist because they realise that they actually do need something that’s

a more substantial approach.

And so with Gestalt Therapy there can be 10 sessions but it can be 10 months or it can

be a little bit longer. So it’s a very different paradigm I suppose in that sense that you’re

including yourself in as a person as well as a professional.

Clinton: Yeah, I’m really on the same page with you, Ashleigh. In my private practice, I

see lots of clients who have done their Medicare sessions and have left feeling like they’ve had

—they’ve got something maybe, but just felt dissatisfied. And certainly I really believe you can

create a thriving practice if you get your marketing skills right, and you don’t need to have

Medicare rebates. It’s certainly been my philosophy and when I’m trying to teach with

Australia Counselling members as well.

In the other part, I hear you saying as well which I love about Gestalt Therapy is just the

human aspect and the emphasis on the development of the therapist. And I know in my own


training, this was such a special part of the training. And I think to be an effective therapist

today you really have to do that deep and sometimes difficult work of looking at yourself,

looking at your own issues so that you can be more effective with working with other people.

I think this is what the Gestalt Therapy training offers by really allowing the students to

go so deeply into their own processes and understand more about what’s going on for them in

the client-therapist relationship.

Ashleigh: Yes, because also then that’s going to create something that is sustaining for

the therapist in the sense that you really kind of expect the client to go on a journey that you

haven’t yet been on yourself. And so in that sense there’s a strong integrity, but there’s also

something about people who I see who maintain solid on-going practices are people who are

constantly working on themselves in some way.

It really is a bit of a lifestyle, like, a life choice in becoming a psychotherapist. So I think

that’s the difference between psychotherapy and psychology in some ways is that the depth of

exploration that a psychotherapist will constantly be willing to go through with themselves and

therefore, co-journey with a client.

Clinton: Absolutely. And I should also just say as a side note, we have many

psychologists on Australia Counselling, and certainly many psychologists do their own therapy

and do their own exploration and do wonderful work with clients. So I’m certainly referring to

is probably the kind of straight down the line psychologist who does CBT and probably hasn’t

done much self-exploration.

And certainly those psychologists are also very prone to burn out as well. So I think

that’s an important point that it’s nurturing just not for the client but also the therapist who’s


willing to have create therapeutic relationships that are engaging and are also equal to some

degree.

Ashleigh: Yeah, correct.

Clinton: What are some of the changes you’ve seen your students make as they

progress with the training program? Because I’m imagining some people will come in to the

training program to begin with, though for personal development you don’t necessarily have to

be one of become a counsellor. Is that correct?

Ashleigh: Yeah, that’s true. The first year of the training, the graduate certificate part

of the training is an option for people to come in and explore Gestalt Therapy from an

experiential perspective and have an introduction to the theory which can either be for people

who want that personal reasons or for professionals who just want to have a little bit of an

understanding of Gestalt Therapy on top of their practice.

And then there’s a decision point about whether or not people decide whether they

want to pursue their remaining three years of the master’s program in order to work towards

becoming a Gestalt therapist. So there’s an enormous amount of change that comes for an

individual during that whole process.

It’s funny a lot of people end up for some reason or another leaving long-term

relationships when they start the Gestalt Therapy training. I see that quite a lot unsatisfying

relationships, so it must be the case. Certainly though, you see people are coming more into

their own awareness and taking more of the sense of agency over their own lives and then

using those experiences that have in say group process with other trainees as opportunities for

growth.


All of the trainees are also required to be in their own therapy during the training each

year that they’re in the training. So you can’t go through that kind of process without

experiencing significant growth and whether that be that you decide to leave an unsatisfying

situation or generally people just coming to a greater sense of—how do I articulate it.

It’s something about self-agency, self-confidence, their confidence that comes with self-

efficacy around having a contribution into the community as well. I think some of those are

some of the things that are quantifiable. But I think the internal changes that happen for

people are very personal and very deep.

Clinton: Yeah, I’m just smiling as I’m listening to you, Ashleigh, because I found the

reverse was true for me as I was actually able to form a long-term relationship—

[Crosstalk]

Ashleigh: All right!

Clinton: —Gestalt training. But I think what you’re saying is that certainly if you want

to go this type of training be prepared for change.

Ashleigh: Yes, that’s true. Which is like the journey of psychotherapy, isn’t it? I always

say to clients, “This might feel worse before it feels better.” But the idea in the long run is that

it will make change and so that a person’s experience of being in the world will be more

fulfilling and rich and more wholesome and so on. And I think the paradigm that Gestalt

Therapy sits within is a different paradigm to the white western culture’s paradigm that does

pathologise the individual.


So it gives the therapist the opportunity to kind of being the world and see the world

from a different perspective which is a lot more holistic anyway. That can open up a whole

broader range of opportunities and satisfaction for being in the world as well.

Clinton: I’m imagining it must be very satisfying for you to see the students come in

year 1 and then four years down the track, the changes they’ve undergone, and the kind of

skills as a therapist developed up in front of you.

Ashleigh: Yes, most definitely. Their skills as a therapist but also the flourishing that

happens as human being so I feel privileged to be part of that journey with the trainers, yes,

definitely.

Clinton: Wonderful! I’m so appreciative of you speaking to me today about Gestalt

Therapy and I’m hoping that the Australia Counselling members have a flavour of what Gestalt

Therapy is and maybe they may want to find out more so. Two questions, what books would

you kind of recommend someone who wants to find out more as a starting point with Gestalt

Therapy, and also how they can contact you and Gestalt Therapy Sydney?

Ashleigh: Well, there are some recent publications. It‘s a very good one that just

working my way through it at the moment called, “Gestalt Therapy Advancing Theory and

Therapy” by Talia Bar and Yoseph Levine are the editors, and anything by Gary Yontef, Lynne

Jacobs, and Richard Hycner are some good authors to have a look at from the perspective of

intersubjectivity being included into Gestalt Therapy.

So they’re probably some starting points and for people who are interested in the body

aspect of Gestalt Therapy, authors like Michael Clemmens, Jim Kepner, and Ruella Frank are

also some really good publications there. In order to contact Gestalt Therapy, we have the


website www.GestaltTherapySydney.Com We have all about courses available on there and

contact details on there. So that will probably the best starting point.

Clinton: Right. Do you have an intake every year, does it close around March?

Ashleigh: Yeah, we have an intake at March at this point in time and we may at some

stage have a mid-year intake but at the moment, it’s beginning a year intake each year. But we

also have quite a diverse selection of professional development opportunities that happen

throughout the year as well that might be of more interest to your members as well if they’re

thinking about just doing something that’s just a little toe in the water or wanting to get some

professional development hours up on the workshop stage, there are quite a lot of different

things on there as well.

Clinton: Great! And can members signup for updates when workshops are released?

Ashleigh: Yes, definitely, they can join.

Clinton: Okay, great. The other thing worth mentioning as well is that if you’re listening

to this recording and you’re not in Sydney, there are certainly other Gestalt Therapy training

organisations in some of the major capital cities. And there’s certainly in Melbourne, Brisbane,

in Perth, I think they’re the main ones. Are there are others actually that people should be

aware of?

Ashleigh: Well, those are the main ones. There’s another one Terrigal . But it’s

worthwhile mentioning the GANZ website because all of the GANZ-accredited training centres

are listed on the GANZ website. So that is www.GANZ.Org.Au which is also another good

website to have a look at if anyone is interested in Gestalt. And Gestalt links on there and

things like that as well.


http://www.GANZ.Org.Au/

Clinton: Great! So that’s GANZ with a zed, GANZ.Com.Au. Thank you for that.

Ashleigh: .Org.Au.

Clinton: I’m sorry, .Org.Au?

Ashleigh: Yep.

Clinton: So certainly go to GANZ website to get more information about Gestalt. And

thank you again for your time, Ashleigh. I’m very appreciative of it, and hope we can speak

soon.

Ashleigh: Right, you’re welcome, Clinton. Bye.

Clinton: Bye, Ashleigh.

[END OF AUDIO]

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is gestalt therapy more than an empty chair?

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