INNOVATORICONIC INTERVIEW

Sir Jonathan Ive, Jony to his friends, is arguably one of the world’s most influential Londoners. The 45-year-old was born in Chingford — and went to the same school as David Beckham. He met his wife, Heather Pegg, while in secondary school. They married in 1987, have twin sons and now live in San Francisco.

乔纳森•艾维爵士——朋友称呼他乔尼——是世界上最有影响力的伦敦人之一。现年 45 岁的

艾维出生在福德郡，和大卫•贝克汉姆(David Beckham)是校友。在读中学的时候，他遇到了

妻子希瑟•佩格(Heather Pegg)。他们 1987 年结婚，有一对双胞胎儿子，现定居旧金山。

As Apple’s Senior Vice President of Industrial Design, he is the driving force behind the firm’s products, from the Mac computer to the iPod, iPhone and, most recently the iPad. He spoke exclusively to the Evening Standard at the firm’s Cupertino headquarters.

作为苹果的工业设计高级副总裁，艾维是苹果产品的幕后英雄，从 Mac 电脑到 iPod 和

iPhone，再到最近发布的新 iPad，都可见到他的身影。他最近在苹果库比蒂诺总部接受了

专访。

Q: What makes design different at Apple?

记者：是什么使得苹果的设计与众不同？

A: We struggle with the right words to describe the design process at Apple, but it is very much about designing and prototyping and making. When you separate those, I think the final result suffers. If something is going to be better, it is new, and if it’s new you are confronting problems and challenges you don’t have references for. To solve and address those requires a remarkable focus. There’s a sense of being inquisitive and optimistic, and you don’t see those in combination very often.

乔纳森•艾维：我们很难用合适的词汇描述苹果的设计流程，但大致就是设计、原型设计

及制造。如果把这些流程独立开来，我认为最终结果会相当糟糕。如果某些事物变得更好，

它就是创新的。如果是创新，你会面临以前所未碰到过的问题及挑战。为了解决问题并满足

这些需求，就需要我们全神贯注。这是追根寻底及乐观的态度，你平常在其他领域很难看到

这些因素同时出现的情形。

Q: How does a new product come about at Apple?

记者：苹果的新产品是如何创造的？

A: What I love about the creative process, and this may sound naive, but it is this idea that one day there is no idea, and no solution, but then the next day there is an idea. I find that incredibly exciting and conceptually actually remarkable.

The nature of having ideas and creativity is incredibly inspiring. There is an idea which is solitary, fragile and tentative and doesn’t have form.

What we’ve found here is that it then becomes a conversation, although remains very fragile.

When you see the most dramatic shift is when you transition from an abstract idea to a slightly more material conversation. But when you made a 3D model, however crude, you bring form to a nebulous idea, and everything changes - the entire process shifts. It galvanises and brings focus from a broad group of people. It’s a remarkable process.

乔纳森•艾维：我钟爱创造过程。这听起来可能有些天真，但想法就是这样的：某天你可

能没有任何想法，也不会有任何解决方案，但第二天就突然蹦出新的想法。我发现这令人异

常兴奋。

拥有想法及创造性的天性十分鼓舞人心。有些想法是孤立的、易被推翻、具有实验性且

没有模式可循。我们发现这个想法之后会演变成一种交流，尽管这些想法仍非常站不住脚。

最显著的变化就是你将一个抽象的概念转化为更加实质的交流。但当你制造出一个 3D模型，你为模糊的概念构想形状，之后一切都发生了变化。整个过程都发生了转变，这引起

了大部分人群的关注和激励，这个过程非常棒。

Q: What makes a great designer?

记者：造就一个伟大设计师需要具备哪些要素？

A: It is so important to be light on your feet, inquisitive and interested in being wrong. You have that wonderful fascination with the what if questions, but you also need absolute focus and a keen insight into the context and what is important - that is really terribly important. Its about contradictions you have to navigate.

乔纳森•艾维：想象力、好奇心和不怕犯错都非常重要。你可以经常问自己“如果……会怎

样”，但仍需要绝对的专注及对当下情形的敏锐见解，这非常重要。你必须驾驭矛盾。

Q: What are your goals when setting out to build a new product?

记者：当你开始创造新产品时，你的目标是什么？

A: Our goals are very simple - to design and make better products. If we can’t make something that is better, we won’t do it.

乔纳森•艾维：我们的目标非常简单，那就是设计并推出更优质的产品。如果我们不能创

造出更好的产品，我们就不会着手去做。

Q: Why has Apple’s competition struggled to do that?

记者：为什么苹果的竞争对手很难做到？

A: That’s quite unusual, most of our competitors are interesting in doing something different, or want to appear new - I think those are completely the wrong goals. A product has to be genuinely better. This requires real discipline, and that’s what drives us - a sincere, genuine appetite to do something that is better. Committees just don’t work, and it’s not about price, schedule or a bizarre marketing goal to appear different - they are corporate goals with scant regard for people who use the product.

乔纳森•艾维：这一点不同寻常，我们的大多数竞争对手对开发不同的产品非常感兴趣，

或希望推出全新产品，我认为他们的目标是完全错误的。

一个产品必须是真正意义上能称之为优秀的产品。这需要发自内心的动力。我们的驱动

力是真诚且热衷去开发出更好的产品。这与价格、日程或推出不同产品的营销目标无关，而

是在用户还没有任何认知的情况下制定的公司目标。

Q: When did you first become aware of the importance of designers?

记者：你什么时候开始意识到设计师的重要性？

A: First time I was aware of this sense of the group of people who made something was when I first used a Mac - I’d gone through college in the 80s using a computer and had a horrid experience. Then I discovered the mac, it was such a dramatic moment and I remember it so clearly - there was a real sense of the people who made it.

乔纳森•艾维：当我第一次使用 Mac 的时候，我意识到设计团队的重要性。我 80 年代读

大学时使用电脑的体验非常糟糕。然后我发现了苹果 Mac 电脑，那一瞬间我万分激动，现

在还历历在目。这是一个真正意义上的团队。

Q: When you are coming up with product ideas such as the iPod, do you try to solve a problem?

记者：当你萌生 iPod 等产品概念时，你是否是在设法解决某个问题？

A: There are different approaches - sometimes things can irritate you so you become aware of a problem, which is a very pragmatic approach and the least challenging.

What is more difficult is when you are intrigued by an opportunity. That, I think, really exercises the skills of a designer. It’s not a problem you’re aware or, nobody has articulated a need. But you start asking questions, what if we do this, combine it with that, would that be useful? This creates opportunities that could replace entire categories of device, rather than tactically responding to an individual problem. That’s the real challenge, and that’s what is exciting.

乔纳森•艾维：方法不尽相同，有时事物可以给人带来刺激，因此你意识到问题的存在，

这是个非常实际而挑战性最小的方法。

更困难的是当你对某个机会魂牵梦绕时，我认为这真正体现了一个设计师的技能。当

你有所意识的时候，这不能称之为问题，无人能明确给出一个需求。但你开始有疑问，如我

们这样做了将会怎样？与之相结合，有用吗？这创造了可能替代某类产品的机会，而不是战

术性地回应某个独立的问题。这是真正的挑战，也是令人兴奋之所在。

Q: Has that led to new products within Apple?

记者：这样的方式推动苹果内部创造了新产品吗？

A: Examples are products like the iPhone, iPod and iPad. That fanatical attention to detail and coming across a problem and being determined to solve it is critically important - that defines your minute by minute, day by day experience.

乔纳森•艾维：这些例子包括 iPhone、iPod 及 iPad 之类的产品。对细节的狂热、关注问

题并下定决心解决问题，这非常重要。这需要日积月累的经验。

Q: How to you know consumers will want your products?

记者：你怎么知道客户需要你们的产品？

A: We don’t do focus groups - that is the job of the designer. It’s unfair to ask people who don’t have a sense of the opportunities of tomorrow from the context of today to design.

乔纳森•艾维：我们没有焦点小组调查，这些工作都由设计人员完成。如果让普通用户从

今天的设计去设想未来，这是不公平的，他们没有这种感觉。

Q: Your team of designers is very small - is that the key to its success?

记者：你的设计团队规模非常小，这是你们取得成功的关键因素吗？

A: The way we work at Apple is that the complexity of these products really makes it critical to work collaboratively, with different areas of expertise. I think that’s one of the things about my job I enjoy the most. I work with silicon designers, electronic and mechanical engineers, and I think you would struggle to determine who does what when we get together. We’re located together, we share the same goal, have exactly the same preoccupation with making great products.

One of the other things that enables this is that we’ve been doing this together for many years - there is a collective confidence when you are facing a seemingly insurmoutable challenge, and there were multiple times on the iPhone or ipad where we have to think ‘will this work’ we simply didn’t have points of reference.

乔纳森•艾维：在苹果，产品的复杂性要求我们协同工作，成员之间具有不同的专长，这

一点至关重要，这也是设计工作最打动我的一点。我与芯片设计师、电子和机械工程师共同

工作。我们在同一个地点工作，怀着共同的目标，都强烈希望设计出伟大的产品。

另一个重要因素是，我们是多年合作的伙伴。当我们面临棘手的挑战时，大家都众志成

城克服困难。在开发 iPhone 和 iPad 的过程中，我们就多次面临困境，以至于有时都不禁

怀疑“此路不通”，因为我们没有业界的任何现成经验可供借鉴。

Q: Is it easy to get sidetracked by tiny details on a project?

记者：是否存在项目细节容易将设计引入歧途的情况？

A: When you’re trying to solve a problem on a new product type, you become completely focused on problems that seem a number of steps removed from the main product. That problem solving can appear a little abstract, and it is easy to lose sight of the product. I think that is where having years and years of experience gives you that confidence that if you keep pushing, you’ll get there.

乔纳森•艾维：当你试图解决新产品所面临的问题时，你会全副身心地投入这些问题。这

些问题的解决似乎有些抽象，很容易让人迷失产品设计的方向。这就是多年经验发挥作用的

地方，它会带给你信心，让你相信只要坚持努力，最终将会实现目标。

Q: Can this obsession with detail get out of control?

记者：对细节的痴迷是否可能出现失控状态？

A: It’s incredibly time consuming, you can spent months and months and months on a tiny detail - but unless you solve that tiny problem, you can’t solve this other, fundamental product.

You often feel there is no sense these can be solved, but you have faith. This is why these innovations are so hard - there are no points of reference.

乔纳森•艾维：细节问题非常耗费时间，经常在一个细微的细节上要花上很多个月的时间。

但除非你解决了这个细微的问题，否则你就无法解决其他基本的产品问题。你通常会感觉到

无法解决这种细微的问题，但你会拥有强烈的信心。这也正是创新艰难之所在，因为完全缺

乏参照经验。

Q: How do you know you’ve succeeded?

记者：您如何得知自己取得了成功？

A :It’s a very strange thing for a designer to say, but one of the things that really irritates me in products is when I’m aware of designers wagging their tails in my face.

Our goal is simple objects, objects that you can’t imagine any other way. Simplicity is not the absence of clutter. Get it right, and you become closer and more focused on the object. For instance, the iPhoto app we created for the new iPad, it completely consumes you and you forget you are using an iPad.

乔纳森•艾维：作为一个设计师，谈这个问题有些奇怪。在产品设计方面，当有设计师

当面讨好我的时候，我会感到生气。

我们的目标是简单的产品，简单得你难以想象，简单不是沉闷，当你领悟到这一点，你

就会更接近产品、重视产品。拿新 iPad 上的 iPhoto 应用来说，它使你着迷，让你忘了自

己正在使用 iPad 。

Q: What are the biggest challenges in constantly innovating?

记者：不断创新过程中的最大挑战是什么？

A: For as long as we’ve been doing this, I am still surprised how difficult it is to do this, but you know exactly when you’re there - it can be the smallest shift, and suddenly transforms the object, without any contrivance.

Some of the problem solving in the iPad is really quite remarkable, there is this danger you want to communicate this to people. I think that is a fantastic irony, how oblivious people are to the acrobatics we’ve performed to solve a problem - but that’s our job, and I think people know there is tremendous care behind the finished product.

乔纳森•艾维：因为只要我们一直坚持创新，我仍然对困难程度表示惊讶。但当你真正达

到目标时，你就会豁然开朗。可能一个小小的转变不要任何新发明就能突然转变成实在的事

物。

解决 iPad 存在的问题确实非同凡响，你希望将这些信息告诉人们。我认为这是一个奇

妙的讽刺，人们对我们解决问题的能力感到钦佩。但这是我们的工作职责，我认为人们知道

我们在最终产品背后投入的巨大关注。

Q: Do consumers really care about good design?

记者：消费者会真正在意出色的设计吗？

A: One of the things we’ve really learnt over the last 20 years is that while people would often struggle to articulate why they like something - as consumers we are incredibly

discerning, we sense where has been great care in the design, and when there is cynicism and greed. It’s one of the thing we’ve found really encouraging.

乔纳森•艾维：过去 20 年来我们真正学到的是，虽然消费者通常难以清晰表达他们喜欢某

样事物的原因，但我们能感觉到设计中用户十分在意的地方，以及用户的不满或钟爱情绪。

这是我们发现真正鼓舞人心的地方。

Q: Users have become incredibly attached, almost obsessively so, to Apple’s products - why is this?

记者：用户对苹果产品非常着迷，几乎达到狂热追捧的程度，请问原因是什么？

A: It sound so obvious, but I remember being shocked to use a Mac, and somehow have this sense I was having a keen awareness of the people and values of those who made it.

I think that people’s emotional connection to our products is that they sense our care, and the amount of work that has gone into creating it.

乔纳森•艾维：其原因再明显不过，我仍记得当我使用 Mac 时感受到的震撼，开始莫名

其妙地关注这个团队及他们的价值观。我认为消费者对苹果产品的情结在于，他们感受得到

我们的用心以及创造过程中的艰辛努力

Resources from: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/sir-jonathan-ive-the-iman-cometh-7562170.html

China Institute for Innovation (CII) is a consulting and academic organization established specifically to help Chinese companies, multinational organizations and government agencies to meet the needs for world-class expertise in innovation. CII works with leaders of business, government, and non-profit organizations to bring them the very best tools,

methods, and learning experiences to build and strengthen innovation capabilities.CII offers a wide variety of programs to help people at all levels and in all roles to understand and master the principles and practices of innovation, to help their organizations succeed in the innovation-driven economy.