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Episode275:OuterOrder,InnerCalmand

HappinessWithGretchenRubin


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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Katie:Hello,andwelcometothe"WellnessMamaPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com.AndI'mheretoday,withGretchenRubin,whoyoumayhaveheardof.Sheistheauthorofseveralbooks,includingtheblockbuster"NewYorkTimes"bestsellers,"BetterThanBefore,""TheHappinessProject,""HappieratHome,"and"TheFourTendencies."Wetouchonallofthosetodayandexplainhowtheycanbepracticaltoyourdailylife.Shehasanenormousreadership,bothinprintandonline,andherbookshavecollectivelysoldmorethan3.5millioncopiesworldwideinmorethan30languages.SheisfrequentlyonTVandisindemandasaspeaker.Shealsohasapodcastcalled"HappierwithGretchenRubin,"whereshediscussesgoodhabitsandhappinesswithhersister,Elizabeth.ShestartedhercareerinlawandwasactuallyaclerkforSupremeCourtJusticeSandraDayO'Connor,whensherealizedshewantedtobeawriter.AndshelivesinNewYorkwithherhusbandandtwodaughters.Andinthisepisode,wetalkhappiness,parenting,community,andhowtofosterinnercalminyourownlife.Gretchen,welcome.Andthanksforbeinghere.


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Gretchen:I'msohappytobetalkingtoyou.

Katie:Oh,mygosh,metoo.AndI'mguessingmostofmyaudienceisalreadyfamiliarwithyou.Butforthosewhoaren't,justgiveusyourbackgroundandyourstoryandhowyoubecamewhatyouaretoday.

Gretchen:Well,Istartedmycareerinlaw,andIwasactuallyclerkingforJusticeSandraDayO'ConnorwhenIdecidedthatIwantedtobeawriter.Andso,IswitchedtobeingawriterandIhadbeenwritingbooksformanyyearsbeforeIwrotethebook,whichisthebookforwhichI'mprobablybestknown,whichisthebook,"TheHappinessProject."So,I'magoodexampleofsomebodywhoworked10yearstobeanovernightsensation.Andeversincethatbookcameout10yearsago,I'vebeenwritingaboutkindofhumannature,withahappinessemphasis.So,happiness,goodhabits,thefourtendencies,whichisapersonalityframeworkthatIdevised.andmymostrecentbook,"OuterOrder,InnerCalm,"whichisaboutsortofhowoursurroundingsinfluenceourhappiness.AndthenIalsohaveapodcastcalled"HappierwithGretchenRubin,"whereItalkabouthowtobehappier,spoileralert,withmysister,andco-host,ElizabethCraft,who'saTVwriterandproducerinLosAngeles.

Katie:Amazing.Andwe'llgodeeponthenewbook.ButIwannafirst...Canyoutalkaboutwheretheideafor"TheHappinessProject"camefrom?BecauseIlovethatbook.

Gretchen:Oh,well,thankyou.Youknow,itcamefromaveryordinarymomentinmylife.Iwasstuckinacitybusinthepouringrain,andIhadoneofthoserareopportunitiesforreflectionthatyoudon'toftengetinsortof,inthechaosofeverydaylife.AndIthought,"WhatdoIwantfromlifeanyway?”AndIthought,"Iwannabehappy,"butIrealizedIdidn'tspendanytimethinkingaboutwhetherIwashappyorhowIcouldbehappier.AndIthought,"Youknow,Ishouldhaveahappinessproject."Andthat'sthephraseIusedandIranoutthenextdaytothelibrary,gotagiantstackofbooksabouthappinessbecauseIwantedtoknow,canyoumakeyourselfhappierifyouwantedtomakeyourselfhappier?Like,whatdoessciencesay?Whatdoesancientphilosophysay?Whatdoespopculturesay?Andso,Idecidedtospendayearthinkingabouthappiness.AndIthoughtayearwaslongenoughtofeellikeyoucouldmakerealchange,butnotsolongthatyoucouldn'tseetheendofit.So,Ifound12themes,areaswhereIthoughtIcouldmakemyselfhappier.AndthenIfoundahandfulofconcretemanageableresolutions,withineachthemethatIthought,"Youknow,ifIdidthis,Iwouldbehappier."AndthenIjusttriedittoseewhatwouldhappenifyoureallysetouttotrytomakeyourselfhappier.Andso,Iwaskindofmyownguineapig.Andso,"TheHappinessProject"isaboutthat.Andthenmynextbook,"HappieratHome"wassortofthesamethingonaschoolyear,becauseIthinkaschoolyearisanotherkindofyearinourminds,reallyfocusingonhome.Becausethereareveryfewuniversals,butalmosteverybodyhasanideaofhome,andalmosteverybodywantstobehappierathome.

Katie:Yeah.I'mcurioussomeofthosethingsthatwerereallyactualneedlemoversinhappiness,becauseIthinkyou'reright.Mostofushavethatideathatwewannabehappy,butwe'veneverreallydefinedthatorknowwhatthatactuallylookslikeforus.Andso,ittendstodefaultinto,foralotofpeopleandmeattimesinthepast,youknow,thinkingofpossessionsorachievements,likethosethingsweregonnabebenchmarksforhappiness.So,whatweretheactualthingsthatdidmakeyouhappier?


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Gretchen:Well,justabouteverythingIdid,didmakemehappier.But,youknow,oneofthethings,ifyoulookattheresearchand,youknow,contemporaryscientistsandancientphilosopherswouldagree,thatanythingrelatedtorelationshipstendstomakepeoplehappier,becauserelationshipsreallyareso,soimportanttoourhappiness.So,somethinglikejoiningorstartingabookgroupordoingthingstostayinbettertouchwithyourfamilymembers,goingtoareunion.Anythingthathelpsyoudeepenrelationshipsorexpandrelationshipsisthekindofthingthat'sgonnamakeyouhappier.Lookingatthingslikework.Youknow,howdoyoufindmorehappinessatwork?Workissuperimportantforhappiness,partlybecausewejustspendsomuchtimethere,andalso,becausemanyaspectsofahappylifecomefromwork.So,whatcanyoudotomakeyour...Youknow,Iaskedmyself,"Well,whatcouldIdotomakemyworklifehappier?"Forpassion,youknow,that'sathing,Ithinkalotofpeoplewouldpickdifferentthings.Mypassionisreading.That'sdefinitelymypassion.So,Ididalotofthingsabout,well,howcouldIreadbetterandreadmore,makemoretimeforreading?Andotherpeople,maybetheydon'tcareaboutreading,buttheywannadomorebikingortheywannaspendmoretimewithmusic.Butwhatwasinterestingtomewasthatyouwouldthinkor,like,itseemedtomeplausiblewhenIwasstarting,thatreadingabookwaskindofobservationsabouthumannaturegenerally,orlookingatlargestudiesofbigpopulationswouldtellyouthemostabouthowtobehappier.

Butactually,IthinkwhatIdiscoveredwasthatpeoplereallyrelatedtomyindividualidiosyncraticstory.Andit'sfunnybecausewhenIwaswritingthebook,somepeoplesaidtome,"Look,Gretchen,you'resoboring.Like,noone'sgonnabeinterestedinyou.Like,nottobemean,but,like,noone'sinterestedinyou.Like,you'resoordinary."Andthensomepeoplewillbelike,"Gretchen,you'resoidiosyncratic.Noone'sgonnaidentifywithyoubecauseyou'rejustlikethisweird...Like,you'vegotyourown,like,strangelittlethingsgoingon.Like,noone'sgonnaidentifywithyou."AndIthinkitturnsoutthatwejustidentifywithotherpeople'sstories.Andwhenyouhear,"Hey,Gretchenstoppedreadingbooksinthemiddlebecausesherealizedshewouldreadmorebooksthatshelikedifshestoppedreadingbooksinthemiddle."IcouldstopreadingbooksinthemiddleorIcouldstopwatchingmoviesinthemiddlewhenIdon'tlikethem,orIcould,youknow,stoptryingtogetbetterontheguitarandreallyfocusonthepianobecausetheguitarisjustnotdoingitforme,orwhateveritmightbe.Ithinkthat'swhatpeoplerelatedtowassortofthis...Justhearingwhatonepersontried,itkindofgivesyouideasofwhatyoucouldtry.

Katie:Yeah.Absolutely.Ithinkthere'ssomuchpowerinastory.And,Imean,it'struly,Ifeellikethatbooksparkedamovement,whichisawesomebecausecertainly,weneededthatmovementtoday.Andasafollowup,youalsohavethebookaboutthefourtendencies.And...

Gretchen:Yes.

Katie:...yousaid,"Iwanttospendalotoftimeon"OuterOrderInnerCalm,"butIlovedthisbookalottoo.AndIwillputmyselfoutthereasanexample.SoIamarebel,whichwasprobablynotshockingtoanyonewhoknowsme.

Gretchen:Interesting.That'sthesmallestgroup.Thesmallesttendencyisrebel.Yes.


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Katie:Okay.So,canyouexplaintouskindofthepremisefor"TheFourTendencies"andwhatthefourdifferenttendenciesare?

Gretchen:Yes.So,Iwilldescribethisnowinbrief.Andfrankly,mostpeoplecanjusttellwhattheyarefromaverybriefdescription.Butifyouwannatakeaquiz...Somostpeopleliketotakeaquizthatsortofwillspitoutananswerandgiveyoualittlereport,andputitincontext.Ifyougotoquiz.gretchenrubin.com,it'sshort,it'sfree.Like,2millionpeoplehavetakenthisquiz.So,youcandothat,butIwilldescribeit.AndasIsay,alotofpeoplejustcantellwhattheyare.So,thefourtendenciesdividepeopleintoupholders,questioners,obligers,andrebels.Rebelslikeyou.Andwhatit'slookingatisaveryspecificareaofyournature,butonethatactuallyhasalotofconsequencesinhowyoureverydaylifeplaysout.Andthat'showyourespondtoexpectations,whichsoundsboring,Iknow,butitactuallyendsupbeingveryjuicy.So,weallfacetwokindsofexpectations.Outerexpectations,whichisthingslikeaworkdeadlineorarequestfromafriend,andthenthereareinnerexpectations.Myowndesiretogetbackintomeditation.Myowndesiretokeepanewyear'sresolution.Anddependingonhowyoumeetouterandinnerexpectations,that'swhatmakesyouanupholder,aquestioner,anobliger,orrebelbecausethosearethefourcombinations.So,upholdersreadilymeetouterandinnerexpectations.Theymeettheworkdeadline.Theykeepthenewyear'sresolutionwithoutmuchfuss.Theywannaknowwhatotherpeopleexpectfromthem,butwhattheyexpectforthemselvesisjustasimportant.Andsotheirmottois,"Disciplineismyfreedom."Thentherearequestioners.Questionersquestionallexpectations.They'lldosomethingiftheythinkitmakessense.So,they'remakingeverythinganinnerexpectation.

Ifitmeetstheirinnerstandard,theywilldoit,noproblem.Ifitfailstheirinnerstandard,theywillresist.Theytypicallyreallyobjecttoanythingarbitrary,unjustified.Theyalwayswantreasons.Theywantefficiency,justifications.So,theirmottois"I'llcomplyifyouconvincemewhy."Thenthereareobligers.Obligersreadilymeetourexpectations,buttheystruggletomeetinnerexpectations.AndIgotmyinsightintothistendencywhenafriendsaid,"Youknow,theweirdthingaboutmeisIknowI'mhappierwhenIexercise.AndwhenIwasinhighschool,IwasonthetrackteamandInevermissedtrackpractice.So,whycan'tIgorunningnow?"Well,whenshehadateamandacoachexpectinghertoshowup,shehadnotroublegoing.Butwhenshewasjusttryingtogoonherown,itwasastruggle.Tomeetinnerexpectations,obligersmusthaveouteraccountability.Thatiscrucial.Ifanobligerwantstoreadmore,joinabookgroup.Like,that'showitworksforobligers.So,theirmottois,"Youcancountonme,andI'mcountingonyoutocountonme."Andthenfinally,rebels.Yourtendency.Theproudrebeltendency.Rebelsresistallexpectations,outerandinneralike.Theywannadowhattheywannadointheirownway,intheirowntime.Theycandoanythingtheywannado.Theycandoanythingtheychoosetodo.Butifyouaskortellthemtodosomething,they'reverylikelytoresist.Andtypically,theydon'tevenliketotellthemselveswhattodo.Like,theywouldn'tsignupfora10:00a.m.spinclassonSaturdaybecausetheydon'tknowwhatthey'regonnawanttodoat10:00a.m.onSaturdayandjustthefactthatsomeone'sexpectingthemtoshowupisjustgonnaannoythem.Andso,themottooftherebelis,"Youcan'tmakemeandneithercanI."So,thosearethefourtendencies.

Katie:Andisitlikewithsomepersonalitytests,thatthereareelementsofallofusandallofthose?Like,Ihear,like,littlepiecesoftheothers,I'mlike,"Oh,thatkindofisme,butdefinitelyrebel."Like,doweallhaveaspectsofallofthem?


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Gretchen:Well,Imean,noonelikestobecontrolled.So,inthatway,we'realllikerebels.Andwe,nobodylikestodosomethingthat'stotallyarbitraryorunjustified.So,inthatwe'relikequestioners.Andallofuswilltakeintoaccountlikeouterexpectations,andifsomething'sreally,reallyimportanttosomeoneelse,like,that'sgonnainfluencethewayIviewthat,andsothat'sobliger.ButIthinkthat,despitethat,whichiskindof,like,littlebitsinallhumannature,justabouteverybodyreallydoessquarelyfitwithinonetendency.Now,oneofthethingsisthateachtendency...Ifyouimaginethis,like,ifyoulookonmywebsiteoryoulookinthebook"TheFourTendencies,"you'llseeadiagramwhichisaVenndiagraminfourcirclesinatriangle.Ifyouthinkaboutlikeyourtendency,you'rearebel.So,rebelsarelikequestionersinthattheybothresistouterexpectations.Andrebelsarealsooverlappedwithobligersbecausetheybothresistinnerexpectations.Andso,youcanbearebelwho'smoreonthequestionersideoryoucanbearebelwho'smoreontheobligerside.Andthatwillinfluencethewayyourtendencycomesout.So,like,I'manupholder,whotipstoquestioner,sothatmeansmyupholdernesslooksalittledifferentfromupholderswhotiptoobliger.So,thereisarangewithinthetendenciesdependingonwhichwayyouleanwithinyourtendency.Butlikeanupholderandarebel,like,we'renotgonnagetourselvesmixedup.Like,you'renotgonnahavethesameviewontheworldthatIhavebecauseI'manupholder,andupholdersandrebelsarekindofthemostoppositeandprobably,there'llbemany,manythings,justin,like,settingupourday,thatwouldfeelverydifferenttousandthatwouldcomenaturallytous.So,youknow,Ithinkpeopledofitsquarelywithinone.

Katie:Thatmakessense.Andthenonceweknowthisaboutourselves,kindofgiveusacoupleofexamplesofwayswecanusethistoouradvantageinlife.BecauseIknow,like,whenIreadthataboutmyself,I'mlike,"Yeah,that'stotallytrue.Iresistevenmyownexpectationsofmyself."Andthenyoualsogavesomeguidelinesforthen,howdoIthenspringboardintousingthistomyadvantageandgettingmyselftodothethingsIknowIneededtodo?

Gretchen:Yeah.Imean,Ithinkthat'sreallythevalueofthefourtendencies,well,eitherforself-knowledgeorunderstandinghowtoworkmoreeffectivelywithsomebodyelse,whetherthat'saco-worker,oraspouse,orachild,orastudent,orapatient.Ihearfromalotofpeopleinhealthcare.Yeah.Becausewhatyoucandois,onceyouknowthisaboutyourself,youcanfarmoreeffectivelysetthingsuptosucceed.So,let'sjusttalkaboutyoudealingwithyourselfaswhatevertendencyyouare.So,let'ssayyou'reanobliger,becauseobligeristhebiggesttendency.Forbothmenandwomen,thisisthebiggesttendency.Youeitherareanobligeroryouhavemanyobligersinyourlife.Sotheymatteralot,becausethere'salotofthem.Ifyou'reanobliger,andyouwannameetaninnerexpectation,like,youwannaquitsugar,youwannastartexercising,youwannastartmeditating,youwannareadmore,youwannastopusingthesnoozealarm.Don'ttrytorelyoninneraccountability.Thatdoesnotworkforobligers.Youneedouteraccountability.Well,thegoodnewsis,it'sveryeasytocomeupwithouteraccountability.There'samilliondifferentwaystogiveyourselfouteraccountability,butyouhavetorealizethatthat'swhatyouneed.Andalotoftimestheobligersarelike,"Ijustneedtogetmotivated.Ijustneedto,youknow,learntomakemoretimeformyself.Ineedmoreself-care."It'slike,"No.That'snotwhat'sgoingonhere."Whatyouneedisouteraccountability.

Ifyouwannaexercise,don'ttrytogorunningonyourown,signupforaclass,workoutwithafriendwho'sgonnabedisappointedifyoudon'tshowup.Thinkofyourdutytoyourfutureself,"Oh,ifyoucometotheendof2019,andyouhaven'trunthatrace,thewayyou'vereallyhadbeenhopingtodo,you'regonnabesodisappointed."Youcanthinkofyourdutytobearolemodelforotherpeople.Youcanthinkoflike,"Oh,Ineedtotakemydogoutbecausemydogisgonnabesodisappointedifshedoesn'tgettogoout."Imean,there'samillionwaystocreateouteraccountabilityAndobligersaredifferent.So,sometimesacertainkindof


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outeraccountabilitydoesn'twork.Like,payingforsomethingworksreallywellforsomeobligers,butsomeobligers,italmostmakesthemfeellikethey'reoffthehook.They'relike,"Well,Ipaidforit,sothat'slikeasgoodasdoingit."It'slike,"No,it'snot."Youneedtofindanotherformofouteraccountability.Butforarebellikeyou,outeraccountabilitycanactuallybecounterproductive.Becauselet'ssayI'mlike,"Oh,youneedouteraccountability.Let'shaveacheck-inmeeting.Let'ssetdeadlines.Like,I'mgonna,like,lookoveryourshoulder,andthat'sgonnahelpyou."It'slike,notwitharebel.That'sgonnaignitetheirspiritofresistance.That'sgonnaslowthemdown.That'sgonnamakethemwannapushback.

Yougottasaytoarebel,"Hey,youdoitinyourownway.Like,ifyouwannaexercise...Ifyou'rearebel,you'relike,"IfIwannaexercise,maybeI'lljoinabiggym,andthenI'lljustgowhenIfeellikeitandI'lltakewhateverclassIfeellikeinthemoment.Today,Ifeellikeyoga,feelingalittlestiff.Today,I'mfeelingkindofrestless,Iwannadoacardioworkout.Iheardaboutthiscoolnewkindof,like,training.I'mgonnadothatbecauseIliketobeonthecuttingedgeofwhatalltheexercisetrendsare."It'slike,butsayingtosomebody,like,"Youneedtosignupwithatrainerwho'sgonna,like,reallyholdyouaccountable."It'slike,don'tdothattoarebel.That'snotgonnaworkforthem.Theydon'tlikethatfeelingofbeingtrapped.Questioners,it'sallaboutreasonswhy.Whyareyoudoingthis?Youknow,questionersoftenwillsaytome,"Oh,well,I'mtryingtoeatmorehealthfully,andeverythinginmylifecomeseasytome,butnotthis."AndI'malwayslike,"Haveyoureallyinyourownmindcommitted?Haveyoureallydecidedthatyoudobelievethatyouhavefiguredoutwhatyouthinkisthebestwaytoeatbecausethere'ssomuchconflictinginformation?"So,there'spartofyouthinkingthatyoushouldbevegetarianandpartofyouisthinkingyoushouldbepaleo,andpartofyouisthinkingthatyoushouldquitsugar,andpartofusthinkingthatyoushouldfollowthe80/20rule,becauseuntilyouhavethatclarity,you'renotgonnabeabletosticktoit.

Youneedto,inyourownmind,decide,"Thisistherightwayforme.Thisiscustomizedforme.Thisisthemostefficientway.Itrulycommittothismethod."Andonceyouhavethat,thenquestionerscanreallyfollowalong.Butalotoftimesifyoudon'tunderstandyourtendency,youmightreallybetryingtoaddressaprobleminawaythat'snotgonnaworkforyou.Youknow,like,arebelcouldthink,"Oh,Ineedaccountability,"whentheydon'tneedaccountability.Orlikeanupholderlikeme,whyshouldIwastetimeonaccountability?Idon'tneedouteraccountability.Outeraccountabilitycanslowyoudown.It'sjustanotherthingtoworkwith,butIdon'tneedouteraccountability.So,Idon'tneedtodothatstuff.ThatwasarevelationformewhenIrealizedIwasanupholder.Soknowingwhatyourtendencyis,canmakeyoubemuchmorestrategicallyefficientinfiguringoutwhysomething'snotworking,andthenwhatislikelytowork,ratherthanjustkindofthrowingspaghettiagainstthewallandhopingthatyouhappentofindtherightsolution.

Katie:Yeah.AndIdon'tknowifthisisacommonusecase,butI'vealsofoundthisreallyhelpfulwithmyteamatworkandalsowithmykids.So,especiallywithmykids,Ihaveatleastoneofeachtypeamongstmykids.Andso...

Gretchen:You'rekidding.

Katie:Yeah.Iwasshocked.Atleastthelittleones,IhadtoguesswhenItookthequizforthem,buttheolderonescouldtakeitthemselves.Andit'sbeenfascinatinginhowIparentbecauserealizingifIhavearebel,I


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needtorespondmuchdifferentlythanaquestioner,andjustwhetherIanswerquestions,whetherI'mhelpingbetheiroutsideaccountability,orwhetherI'm,like,findingwaystosupporttheirinneraccountabilityorchallengethem.I'mcurious,isthatacommonusecase?Haveotherpeopleuseditthatwayaswell?

Gretchen:Absolutely.Andactually,onmywebsiteandtheresources,Ihavetheseone-pagersforparents,orteachersorhealthcareprofessionals,orwork,spouses,sortoflike,howwouldyouuseitinthatcontext?Andit'sinterestingthatyou'rearebelwitharebelchildbecausemanyrebels...AndIdon'tknowifyoufeelthiswayyourself.Idon'tknowwhatyourparentswere.Butmanyrebelshavesaidtome,like,"Oh,IreallywasluckythatIhadarebelparent."Becauserebelisthemostdifferentfromtheotherthree.It'stheonethatconfusespeoplethemost.AndIthinkifyouhavearebelparentasarebelchild,theyjustgetitinawaythatcanbevery,veryhelpful.AndIthinkforpeoplewhodon'tknowaboutthetendencies,whodohavearebelchildwhoaretryingtounderstandhowtobetherightkindofparenttohelpthatrebelchild,it'sahugerelieftosay,"Okay.Thisisthepatternofwhatyou'reseeing.Thisishowyoucanworkwiththischildeffectivelytogetthemwheretheywannago."Becausealotoftimes,outofthedeepestsenseoflove,wedothingsthatreallyarenothelpfultoarebel.So,like,forexample,pianolessons.Somebodywassaying,"Oh,Iusedtherewardchart.Ithreatenedmychild."Isaid,"Oh,likeyourteacherknowsifyou'vebeenpracticingornot.Like,aren'tyougonnabeembarrassed?Andlike,noneofitworked."

AndthenwhenIrealizedshewasarebelandthatshereallypridedherselfonhermusicality,Isaid,"You'reaperformer.Like,I'mblownawaywithwhatyoucando.You'reonly10yearsold,andIcannotbelievethestuffthatyoucanplay.Iloveseeingyouuponstagejustblowingpeopleawaywithyourperformance.Here'sahardpieceofmusic.IreallyhopethatIgetthechancetoseeyouperformthis,butit'sgonnabehardtomastersomethingthiscomplex."It'slike,yeah.Whatdoesaperformerdo?Aperformerpractices.Whatdoesamusiciando?Amusicianplays.It'stheidentity,whichissoappealingtoarebel.Youhavetoappealtotheiridentity.Whatdidtheywant?Whatdidtheychoose?Theycandoanythingtheywant,butthey'renotgonnadoitbecauseyoutellthemtoorbecausetheirteachertellsthemto,orbecauseyou'regonna,like,givethemsomekindofridiculousreward,whichtheyabsolutelyunderstandisamethodofcontrol.They'regonnadoitbecausetheywantto.Andyoucanremindarebelchild,thisiswhattheywant.Butforpeoplewhoareupholders,questioners,andobligers,oftentheydon'tseehowtoappealtoarebelchildinawaythat'sgonnabeeffective.Andsometimestheyactuallymakethingsmuch,muchworse.

Katie:Yeah.It'ssofascinating.AndIfeellikeit'sjustareallyhelpfultool,especially,likeIsaid,forparentstojustunderstandyourchildalittlemoreandalignyourmotivationsandyourintention,soyou'renotjustspinningyourwheels.AndIwannamakesurewereservetimetotalkaboutthenewbooktoo,"OuterOrder,InnerCalm,"whichI'mreallyexcitedabout.So,fromthebeginning,whydidyoudecidetowritethisbookparticularly?

Gretchen:Well,youknow,sinceIhavebeentalkingtopeopleabouthappinessforsolong,Inoticedthatwheneverthesubjectofanythingrelatedtoouterorder,decluttering,organizing,makingyourbed,wheneverthesesubjectscameup,therewas,like,anextraenergyaroundit.Like,peoplewerejustfiredupinadifferentsortofway.Andthatintriguedme.Youknow,andIfeltthatwaymyself.I'mlike,"Whyisit...?"Like,justthishappenedtomelikesixweeksago.Icouldn'tsleep.Igotupinthemiddleofthenight,I'mlike,"I'mgonnacleanoutourutilitycloset."Andlike,forthenextthreeweeks,Iwasjustgoingoutofmywaytowalkbythisclosetandbelike,"Itlooksamazing.Lookatthis.Itlookssogreat."It'slike,"WhydoIhavethis


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disproportionateenergy,andfeelingof,like,goodcheer,fromdoingsomethingassimpleascleaningoutourutilitycloset?"There'sjustsomeconnectionthere,adisproportionateconnection.AndIwasreallyalwayscuriousaboutit.Ifeltitmyself,andIthought,"Well,whyistherethisconnection?"Andthengiventhatthat'strueformostpeople,noteverybody,butformostpeople,howdowecreateit?Howdowemaintainit?AndIhavethesecretsofadulthood,whicharekindof,like,thelittlebitsofwisdomthatIfeellikeI'vegainedovertime,throughhardexperience.Andoneofthemis,youknow,formostpeople,outerordercontributestoinnercalm,morereallythanitshould.Andpeoplekeptrepeatingthatbacktome.Theywouldsay,"Oh,yeah.Ifeelthesameway.Outerordercontributestoinnercalm."AndsoIthought,"Well,youknow,Iwannaexplorethis."ButIwantedtodoitin,like,afunlittlebook,likeabookyoucouldjustzipthrough,thatwouldgetyoupsycheduptokindofjumpoutofyourseatandgorunningtothemedicinecabinetandcleanitout.So,Iwroteitinkindofaverylightway,sothatitwouldbeveryeasytojustkindof,like,zipthroughit,getthebigideas,gettheideasthatwouldworkforyou,andgetstarted.

Katie:Yeah.Ilovethat.So,whataresomeoftheconcretepracticalsuggestionsthatyougiveinthebook?BecauseIthinkthatyou'reright.Thisisanareapeoplegetreallyexcitedabout.Weallknowthatit'sanimportantthingweshouldbedoing,butyetalotofpeoplestruggletoactually,like,justmakeitoverthemountainanddoit.Sowhataresomepracticalwayswecanstartthatprocess?

Gretchen:Well,onethingIliketothinkaboutislike,"Whatarethelittlethingsyoucandoaspartofyourordinaryday?"BecauseIgetit.Peoplearelike,"Ihavethreekids.Iworkfulltime.Youknow,like,Ican'tspendanafternooneverySaturdaycleaningup.Andbytheway,Idon'twantto.So,evenifIhadthetime,Idefinitelywouldnotdothatwithmytime."So,like,whatarethelittlethingsthatyoucandoasyougo?Andso,onethingIlove,andIthinkofeverythinginthebook,thismaybethethingthatisresonatingmostwithpeople,istheone-minuterule.Anythingyoucandoinlessthanaminute,goaheadanddoitwithoutdelay.Ifyoucanhangupyourcoat,insteadofthrowingitoverachair,ifyoucanglanceatadocument,realizeyouneedtofileitandputitintherightfilefolder,ifyoucanthrowawayapieceoftrashinsteadofjust,like,puttingitonthedeskbesideyou,goaheadanddothat.Andthisisgoodbecauseit'sjustpartofyourordinarydayandyet,itgetsridofthatkindofscumofclutteronthesurfaceofeverydaylifethatreallymakesusfeelweigheddown.Anotherthingthat'skindofalongthesamelinesispowerhour.Andso,thingsthatcanbedoneatanytimeareoftendoneinnotime.Andso,Ihaveahabitof,like,I'llleaveoutthispileoflibrarybooksonthekitchencounterbecauseI'llremembertotakethembacktothelibrary.

Butthen,like,weeksgobyandIdon'ttakethembecauseit'slike,"WhenamIgonnagotothelibrary?"Anytime,notime,andyetthey'rejustsittingoutthere,clutteringupmymindandclutteringupmyspace.So,powerhourisyoukeeparunninglistofallthelittlethingsthatyouneedtodo.Like,youneedtoruntothehardwarestoretobuysomekindofweirdlightbulboryouneedtogototheshoestore,youneedtogotothelibrary,orit'sjustsomethingthatyouneedtogetdone.Like,Ineedtogothroughthemonth'sreceiptsand,like,puttheminchronologicalorderandtallythemup.So,withpowerhour,again,ifyou'reavery,verybusyperson,you'relike,"CouldItakeanhourandjustsortof,like,trytohandlesomeofthesenaggingtasks?"Andwhatyoufindisthatwhenyoureallysitdownanddothings,youcandoalotmoreinanhour,maybethanyouthink,andoveracoupleofweeks,amonth,youstarttomakeseriousprogress,andthenyouhavethisfeelingofpeacethatcomeswhenyou'renotlookingatthatburnedoutlightbulbeverysingleday,andbelike,"Oh,Igottagotothehardwarestore."Youknow,that'sdraining.So,that'sanotherwaytotackleitasyougo.Onethingthatalotofpeopleseemtolikeistheex-factor,toconsidertheex-factor.Thisiswithclothes.


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Ifyouaretryingtodecidewhethertokeepanitemofclothing,imaginethatyouwerewalkingdownthestreetandyouranintoyourex.Wouldyoubehappythatyouwerewearingthatitemofclothing?Ifnot,maybeyouwannaletthatthinggo.Anotherthingthatworksforalotofpeopleistodoavirtualmove.Weallareveryfamiliarwiththeideathatmovingisagreattimetoclearclutterbecausewhenyou'repackingstuffup,youdon'twannapaytomoveit,andboxitupanddealwithit,sopeoplegetridofalotofthingsbeforetheymove.Andyoushouldreallytrytoclearclutterasmuchasyoucanbeforeyoumove.Don'tdoitontheothersidebecausethat'sapain.Butwe'renotalwaysmoving.Youknow,somepeoplemovefrequently,somepeopleareinplaceforalongtime.So,whatyoucandoisdoavirtualmoveoranimaginarymove,whereyousaytoyourself,"HereIhavethisgiantmetalmixingbowl.IfIweremoving,wouldItakethatwithme?"Andifyou'relike,"Well,probablynotbecausewehaven'tuseditin10years."It'slike,"Okay.Well,whydon'tyougoaheadandgetridofthatnow?"Becauseifyouwouldn'tmoveittoanewplace,youprobablydon'tneeditinyourcurrentplace.

Katie:Ilovethat.I'vealwaysthoughtmovingwasgreatforthat.Butyou'reright.Whywaituntilwe'reactuallymovingtodoit?

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HeadtosteadyMD.com/wellnessmamatolearnmoreandtotakeaquickquiztoseewhichdoctoryoumatchwith.

Katie:Andyoualreadytouchedononeofthechallenges,Iwouldguess,thatyouhearfrompeopleorthefactorsthatkeeppeoplefromdoingthis,whichisjustoverwhelmingbusyness.Iknowthat'ssomethingIdealwithalotbothasamomandhearfrommyaudiencealot.Whataresomeoftheothersyouhearabout?Andwhataresomeofthewayswecankindofconquerthose?

Gretchen:Yeah.Beingoverwhelmedisone...Like,especiallypeoplewhohavesortoflike,IhadababyandstartedanewjobinthesamesixmonthsorImovedandswitchjobs.Andthenit'seasiertokeepupthantocatchup.So,remindyourselfthatifyougetcaughtup,thenit'smucheasiertokeepup.Sodefinitely,oneisbeingoverwhelmed.AndIwouldsayforthat,justtrytochipawayatituntilyougetallthoseboxesunpackedorwhatever.Anotherthingisdecisionfatigue.Thisismaybethebiggestcontributortoclutter,whichisalotoftimesittakesefforttodecide,"WhatamIgonnadowiththis?Okay.Mydaughterhasoutgrownthisextremelycutelittleyellowdress.DoIkeepitasamemento?DoIkeepitbecausemaybeit'llbeahandmedown?DoIframeit?DoIgiveitaway?Isitingoodenoughshapetogiveitawayoractuallyisitreallymorelikearagbecausesheworeitsooften?Butit'ssuchalovelymemento,Iwannakeepit."Andinsteadof,like,comingtoandcomingtoadecision,you'rejustlike,"Whydon'tIjustputeverythinginaboxandjamitundertheguestroombed,andthenI'lljustleaveitthere."Butthenthatstuffmountsup,andthenyou'vegotabunchofthingswhereyoudon'treallyknowwhattodowithit.So,partofitistoreallypushyourselftomakeadecisionrightaway.Andit'slike,"Ireallylovethisyellowdress,it'singoodshape,I'mgonnagiveitaway.Butfirst,I'mgonnatakeapictureofitbecauseIneverwannaforgetit.ButIdon'tneedtokeepit.I'mnotgonnahaveanotherbaby,soIdon'tneedtokeepitforahandmedown.I'llgiveitawaysothatsomebodyelsecouldgetgooduseoutofit,becauseit'sstillgotalotofgoodwear."

So,nowImadethatdecision.Now,Icanactonit.NowIcangiveitawayandgetitout.ButIhavemypicture,soIhavemymemory.Anotherthing,andthisisrelatedtothat,istheemotionalattachmentthatwefeeltothingsbecausesometimeswejust,it'slikeeverythingmychildrentouchisprecioustomeor,youknow,everyphotographofanybodythatI'veever...youknow,feelskindoflike,howcanIthrowthataway?I'vebeenastonishedbyhowmanypeoplekeepholidaycardsofotherpeopleyearafteryear,afteryear.Thereissomethingkindofsuperstitiousinuswhereitfeelslikekindofwrongtothrowawayapictureofsomeonewhowefeelcloseto.Andso,thatmakesithardsometimestogetridofthingsbecauseyou'relike,"Oh,yeah,youknow,Idon'tfitintothisbusinesssuitanymoreandIdon'thavethekindofjobwhereevenifIfitintoit,Iwouldwearthiskindofsuit,andit'soutoffashionbecauseit's20yearsold.ButtherewasatimewhenIworeitevery,onceaweekandIlovedit,anditwasinmyfirstjob.So,Ifeelthisemotionalattachmenttoit,whichismakingithardformetofigureoutwhattodowithitbecauseithasthisweight,beyondkindofitsusefulnessinmylife."Andso,Ihavetoworkthroughthatinordertocleartheclutter.

Katie:Yeah.Ithinkthatthatsentimentalattachmentsideisreallytough.AndIdon'tstrugglewithitmuch.I,like,gotomyhusbandandI,Itendto,like,getridofeverythingand,like,benotattachedtostuff,somethingsIprobablyshouldbealittlemoreattachedtoyou.He'sactuallyalittlebitmoresentimental,butIthinkthat,itseemslikethetoughestonetoovercome,becausetheseitems,eventhoughthey'rejustintangible


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items,theyhavethesesentimentalmeaningstous.Andyou'reright,itmakestotalsense.It'shardtoletgoofthat.

Gretchen:Yeah.It'sinterestingthatyoutalkedaboutthedifferencebetweenyouandyourhusbandbecausethisisdefinitelysomethingwhereyouseeahugerangeinhowpowerfullypeoplefeelattached.Andit'sinterestingwhenyoureadkindofadviceaboutclearingclutter,it'sclearthatmanypeoplewhoaresortofinthebusinessoftellingpeoplehowtoclearclutter,themselvesfeelverylittleemotionalattachment.Andtheydon'tseemtohaveverymuchunderstandingofhowotherpeoplefeeltowardstheirobjects.Ithinkit'sveryimportantthatifyouareapersonwhofeelsahighemotionalattachmenttopossessions,toreallyrespectthatintoaccountforthat,becausejustdismissingitdoesn'thelp.Becauseit'slikeformebeinglike,"Thatstuffisinthepast.Whykeepit?Getridofit."It'slike,well,thatdoesn'thelpyouifyoufeelapowerfulattachment.Ithinkyouhavetorespectthatattachmentandhelpworkthroughit.WhatIsaytopeoplewhohavethat,IthinkI'mkindofinthemiddleofthetwoextremes,istosay,"Ifwhatyouwantfromyourpossessionsistohangontomemories,thoseobjectswilldothat.Theywillfunctionbetterasthatmemorypromptiftheyarefewinnumberandcarefullychosenandprobablysmallerinsize."

Becauseifyoukeepeverydrawingthatyourkindergartensondidinkindergarten,youwillhaveahugeamountofpaperthatisnotveryinteresting.Becauseit'sjustlikeyellowfingerpaint,bluefingerpaint,greenfingerpaint,spellingtest,spellingtest,spellingtest,spellingtest.That'snotinterestingtoanybody.Ifyouhaveafolderofsixthingsfromkindergartenyear,andit'slike,thekindergartenphotographandtheinvitationtohisbirthdayparty,andthreepiecesofartthatwerereallycool,and,like,threethingsthathedidthatwerereallygreat,andthat'sinafolder,well,that'sfun.Because,youcouldgobackwithyoursonandlike,"Let'slookatwhatyoudidinkindergarten.You'reinthirdgradenow."Andthenyoulookatit,andittakes,like,10minutes,andit'slikethehighlightreel,that'sfun.Andthatyoucankeeponashelfandthat'smanageable.Thisfourboxesinthebasement,noone'severgonnalookthroughitbecauseit'stooboring,it'stoolowvalue,it'stoodiffuse.There'stoomuchtogothrough.Ittakesuptoomuchspaceandeventually,like,yourbasementwillflood,theboxeswillgetruinedand,like,you'llthrowthemaway,neverhavingopenedthemin10years.Youknow,so,ifyoukeepeveryt-shirtthatyouhadincollege,nothingspecial.Ifyoukeepthethreethatarethemosticonic,themostspecial,thenthat'ssomethingthat'smanageable.

Andso,Ithinkoftenforpeoplewhoaretryingtoimagineemotions,it'slike,whatisthebest?What'sthemosticonic?What'sthemosttypical?Youknow,andthenmaybeyoutakepicturesoftheotheronessothatyougetkindofthatlittlememoryprompt,butyouoftendon'tneedthewholeitem.Orlikemygrandfather.Mygrandfatherdied,Icouldhavekepthischair,hisfavoritechair.Icouldhavekepthisroll-topdesk.IcouldhavekepthisgrandfatherclockbecausehecollectedclocksorIcouldhavekepthispocketwatchbecausehewasanengineerontheUnionPacificRailroad,andhispocketwatchwaslike,absolutelyessentialtohisjob.Ipickedthepocketwatchbecauseit'ssmallandcanfitontheshelf.Idon'thaveto,like,whatI'mgoingtomovearoll-topdeskaroundthe...?Youknow,IliveinNewYorkCity.ButallIneedsomethingtoremindmeofmygrandfather.Andreally,Idon'tneedathingtoremindmeofmygrandfather,butIlikehavingathingtoremindmeofmygrandfather.Ilikehavingsomethingofmygrandfather's,butIcanchoosewhatthatis.Idon'tneedtochooseamajorpieceoffurniture.Icanpicksomethingdifferentandsaturateitwiththosememories,aslongasit'ssomethingthatIassociatewithhim.


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Katie:Yeah.Andthat'sagreatpointaswell,especially,Ihaven'tgonethroughthisyet,butwhenwelose,youknow,aparent.Atsomepoint,I'velostgrandparents,butIwasn'tatanagewhereIkeptsomethingoftheirs.Butthereisthattendencyto,like,wannaholdontoallofthosethings,toalloftheirfurniture,andallofthethingsthathavememories.Andwedon'tneedallofthem.We'reofcoursegonnarememberthosepeoplewelove,whetherwehavejustonelittlereminderoreverypieceoffurniturefromtheirentirehouse.AndIalsolovethephotoidea.That'ssomethingI'vedone,justasamomwithsixkidsforsanityis,Iwilltakepicturesofmyfavoritethingsoftheirartworkortheminfavoriteclothing,andeventually,thosegetcompiledintodigitalphotobooksthatIcanprintoutifIwant,butsmall.So,Ihavethisoneeight-inchbyeight-inchbookthat's,like,threeyearsoftheirmemoriesversusboxesofartwork,whichIlove.Ibetyou'vegottenthisquestionbefore.ButI'mcurioushowthismethoddiffersfrom,like,thelife-changingmagicoftidyingup.BecausetheonereallybigcritiqueIhearofthatformoms,islike,sparkingjoyisnotagoodmetricbecause,like,allthatartworkdoesactuallysparkjoyforus,whereasdiapersdon'tsparkjoyanddishesdon'tsparkjoy,butwecan'tthrowthoseaway.So,howdoesthisdiffer?

Gretchen:Well,itdiffersquiteabitand,like,I'mahugefanofMarieKondo.Ireadherbooktheminuteitcameout.I'vewatchedtheNetflix'sseries,like,Ibinge-watcheditin,like,aday-and-a-half.SoI'mahugefanofMarieKondo.ButthethingaboutMarieKondoisshe'sgotonerightway,theMarieKondoway.Andit'slike,youtakeeveryitemofacertainkindandputitinabigpileonyourfloor,andyoustartinthemorning,andyoudoitbyyourself,andyoudon'thavemusic,andyoudon'thaveacompanion,andyoudoitinacertainorder.AndIjustthink,clearly,itworksreally,reallywellforsomepeople,butIthinksometimespeoplearelike,"Ican'tdoitthatway.Therefore,I'mhopeless."Orlike,"Therefore,whatcanIdo?Ican'tdoittherightway."AndI'mlike,"There'salotofrightways."IwouldhavenervouscollapseifItookeveryitemofclothingoutandputitinapile.Like,Ijustcan'thandlethat.It'slike,mymindexplodesatthethought.So,Ithinkthere'salotofrightwaystodoit,like,andthehardthingaboutwhatorderyoudoitin.Myviewislike,doitinwhateverorderyouwantto.AndIoften,whenpeopleask,like,whenI'mconstantlybeggingmyfriendstoletmecomeoverandhelpthemclearclutterbecauseIlovetodoitsomuch,Ioftensaylike,"What'sbotheringyouthemost?Let'sjuststartwith,like,whatistheeyesoreorlike,whatisannoyingyou?Like,tome,that'shelpful.Now,I'mnotsayingMarieKondo'swaydoesn'twork.Ithinkitreallyworkswellforalotofpeople,butIdon'tthinkitworksforeveryone.

TheSparkJoytest,again,Iagree,Ifeellikethat'sthewrongtestforme.IfeelliketherearethingsthatIdon'thaveastrongemotionalattachmentto,butthatarenecessarytomylifeandkindofdotheirjobintheirway.Andyouknow,soIfindthat,doyouneedit,doyouuseit,doyouloveitisabettertest,becausetherearethingswhereIdon'tloveit,butIuseitorIneedit,andsoI'llkeepit.Andthenthere'sthingsthatIlove,thatIdon'treallyuseorneed,andso,thosemaybearemysparkjoys.ButIfeltlikesparkjoyjustwasliketoo,like,iteliminatedtoomanythingsontheonehand,andthenlikeyousay,italmostpreservestoomanythings.Because,ifyou'relike,Itrulycanrecountthestoryofevery"MyLittlePony"figurineandhaveahappymemorywitheachone,butIdon'twannalivewith40MyLittlePoniesfortherestofmylife.SoIneedanothertest.So,again,Ithinkshe'sgotagreatway,andthere'smanythingsthatshesaysthatIthinkarereallyterrific.OneofthethingsthatIgotfromherbookthatIloveistheideaof,like,ifsomeonegivesyouagift,andyoudon'treallylikeit,alotoftimespeoplefeelliketheyhavetokeepitoutofloveandrespectforthegiver.Butwhatshesays,andIthinkthisisagreatwaytothinkaboutit,isthepurposesofagift,really,istobetheoutwardsymbolofsomeone'saffectionforyouandtheirdesiretogivesomethingtoyou.Andso,byreceivingit,ithasaccomplishedthat.Andso,nowyoucansortofsaytoyourgift,"Thankyouforyourservice,thanks,thanks,"whichIalsoreallylove.


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"Thankyouforyourservice.AndnowI'mgonnaletyougoandbewithsomebodyelsewhowantsagiantfishplatterbecauseIdon't."Youknow,andso,youcanacknowledgethatagifthassucceededasagift,evenifyoudon'treallylikethegiftorwannausethegift.Andanotherthing,Ireallydolikethewayshesuggeststhatyoutoucheverything,becauseIthinkthatwhenyouactuallypicksomethingup,whenyoupullitoffashelforpullitoutofaclosetorwhatever,Ithinkoften,itdoesmakeyouthinklike,"DoIreallywannakeepthis?"Becausewhenit'ssittingontheshelfandit'skindofputawaynicely,like,"Oh,that'snotclutter."Butwhenyoupullitout...Like,Iremember,Ihadsomehowamassed13one-inchbinders.It'slike,Ipulleditofftheshelf,I'mlike,"DoIreallyneed13one-inchbinders?No."So,Idothinkthere'slotsandlotsandlotsofthingsthatshehasthatareveryuseful,evenifyoudon'twannafollowherwholeprogram.ButIjustdon'tthinkthatthere'sonerightway.Ithinkthere'salotofrightways.There'salotofwaysforpeopletoachievetheiraims.So,that'swhatIwouldsaythefundamentaldifferenceis.Theshowhaskindofsoftenedit.Ifyoureadthebook...Butshedidn'twritethebookbeforeshehadchildren.SoIwillbeveryinterestedtoseeifshewrites,youknow,like,whatdoesthislooklikeforsomeonewhonowhastwolittlekids?Becauseshemayhavechangedhersomeofherphilosophies.

Katie:Yeah.That'sagreatpoint.Motherhoodisdefinitelyagamechangerforsure.AndIwanna...

Gretchen:Yes,itis.

Katie:Iknowthatwehaveahardstop,soIwannamakesureIrespectyourtime.Andlinkstoallofyourbooksforanyonelisteningwillbeintheshownotesatwellnessmama.fm.They'realsoavailableanywhereyoubuybooks.ButIwannacirclebacktosomethingyoumentionedinrelationtohappiness,inthebeginning,becauseit'ssuchabigpassionprojectformerightnow,whichistheimportanceofrelationshipsandcommunity.And,Imean,beingintheonlineworldmyself,Ifeellikewe'reinasensemoreconnectedthanwe'veeverbeen,butalsomuchactuallylessconnectedthanwe'veeverbeen.Andasadatanerd,Iknowthestatisticssaythathavingstrongrelationshipsandcommunity,it'smoreimportantthanquittingsmoking,it'stwiceasimportantasexercise.Truly,it'soneofthemostimportantthingswedoforhealthandlongevity.So,doyouhaveanyothersuggestionsorpracticalwaysthatwecanreallyfosterthatinournormallife?

Gretchen:There'ssomanythingstodointhisarea.So,mysisterandIhavetalkedaboutthisseveraltimesonourpodcast,the"HappierwithGretchenRubin"podcast,becausepeoplehavebeensoenthusiastic.It'sactuallysomethingthatmymothersuggested.Andit'scalledUpdate.Sothisiswhatwedowith,like,ourfamilyoforigin.Mysister,mymother,myfather,andIalldothis.Andyousendanemail,andpeopledothisbytextanddifferentplatforms,butwearealwaysjustemailing.Andinthesubjectline,itsaysupdate,andyouliterallywritethemostprosaicordinarythingsthataregoingon.Thisis,like,literallyjusttotellpeople,like,whatareyoudoingrightnow.AndthemottoofUpdateis,"It'sokaytobeboring."So,like,mydadislike,"Mykneeisstillgivingmetrouble.I'vebeenicingitregularly.I'mthinkingthatmaybeIneedtogogetanX-ray."Youknow,it'slike,thisgoesonforweeksbecausehe'slike,hiskneeisgettingbetter,nowit'sgettingworse.Mymother'slike,"I'mgettingmyhaircolored."I'llwritethingslike,"Oh,Eleanor'sreallyexcitedbecausetodaywasherlastmathtestoftheschoolyear,"orwhatever.Andwestarteddoingthisbecausemymothermadeanobservationthatmanypeopleobserve.It'saverycommonobservation,thatis,whenyouseepeopleeveryday,youhavealottotellthem.Andwhenyouseethemrarely,you'relike,"Howiseverything?""Fine.""Howareyou?""Iamalsofine,"andyoudon'thaveanythingtosay.


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So,wethoughtthatbyreallykeepingeachotheruptodateon,like,thesuperdetail,boringstuffofourlives,wewouldfeelmoreconnected.Andthisis100%true,wildlytrue.Andso,wedothisregularly.We'vebeendoingitforyearsnow.Andalotofpeoplehavepickedthisup.Anditisjustthisway.Youcoulddowithyourcollegeroommates,anypeoplethatyouwannafeelclosertowho,forsomereason,you'rekindof...Itcouldevenbepeoplewholiveinthesametownorwhatever,butnowbecauseyourlivesaresobusy,you'renotconnectedthewayyoumighthavebeeninthepast.So,Updateisagreatthing.AnotherthingthatI'mabigfanofisjoiningorstartingagroupbecauseifyou'reagroup,it'slike...Firstofall,whengroupscometogether,often,it'slikeyouinvitesomeofyourfriendsandIinvitesomeofmyfriendstoformthisgroup.Well,Idon'tknowallyourfriends.So,nowI'mmeetingnewpeople,you'remeetingnewpeople,andnowweallknoweachother,sowe'reasocialnetworkinsteadofbeingjuststandalonefriends.Andbecausewemeetregularly,it'slike,"Okay.Well,I'vebeenonbooktour.Ihaven'tcometothismeetinginthreemonthsbecauseI'vebeenoutoftownsomuch."Butyou'vekeptmeetingandthenI'lljoinyouwhenIcan,andI'llstartagain.Andso,itmakesitaloteasiertoschedulebecauseit'slike,"Well,ifyoumisssomething,that'sokay,You'lljustcomebackwhenyoucan."

Andit'softeneasiertoformrelationshipswithpeoplewhoaredifferentfromyoubecauseyouhavesomethingincommon,like,maybeit'sabookclub,whichisveryclassic.I'veheardofpodcastclubswherepeoplelistentoapodcast,andthentheygettogetherandtalkaboutit.Iknowaguywhohadapodcastclubcalled"CerealandCereal,"andthiswaswhen"Cereal"wasfirstairing,andtheywouldgettogether,theyeatbreakfastcerealandlistento"Cereal"andthendiscussit,whichIthoughtwasbrilliant.Iheardaboutabunchofguyswhowerelike,"Realistically,we'renotgonnareadabook,"sotheywouldtaketurnschoosingafamousprofilefromthe"NewYorker"magazine,becausethesearereallymasterpiecesofprofilewritingof,like,reallyfamouspeoplelike,JohnnyCarson,orJoeDiMaggio,orwhoever,andyet,theywereshortenoughthateverybodycouldgetthemread.So,theyfeltliketheywerereadingsomethingreallyvaluable,reallygood,butshortbecausethatfitthembetter.Myfather-in-lawisinagroupwheretheytalkaboutflyfishing.Theydon'tevengoflyfishing.Theyjusttalkaboutflyfishing,butthat'swhathelikes.So,youknow.So,youcanformitaroundanything.Also,ifyou'revolunteering,itcanbegoodbecauseoftenit'seasiertoformfriendswithpeoplewhenyou'redoingsomethingratherthanjusttalking.

So,it'slike,ifyou'recleaningoutacityparkorwhateveritis,thatcanhelpyouforgerelationships.Anotherthing,becausealotofpeople,alotof,abig,bigproblem,andyou'vealludedtothis,foradults,isfriendship.It'ssomethingthatmanyadultscomplainabout,whichis,it'sharderasanadulttomakenewfriends.Onethingyoucandoisyoucantrytoreviveadormantfriendship.Thiscanoftenbeeasierthanmakinganewfriend.So,adormantfriendshipislikesomebodywhoyouwereonceclosetobutnowyou'vedriftedapartfrom.So,like,maybeitwasaneighbor,whoyousawallthetime,andyouhadsomuchfunwiththatneighbor,butnowyourneighborlivesacrosstownandyou'vejustsortoffallenoutoftouch.Canyougetbackintouchwiththat?Because,that'ssomebodyyouknowfromyourpastisafriend.Youcouldrevivethatdormantfriendship.Ormaybe,inyourlife,there'ssomebodywhokindofgotaway.Like,somebodyatworkwhereyouwerelike,"Youknow,Ialwaysreallylikedthem,thatguy,butweneverreallytookitpastjustthefriendlyacquaintances.Wesomehowneverpassedoverthathurdle.ButmaybeIcouldreconnectwiththatpersonnowandsay,"Hey,Irememberyouloveblah,blah.AndIloveittoo."Like,doyouwanna..."Youknow,canyourevivethatdormantfriendshiporlikeanalmostfriendshipbecausesometimesthat'slessintimidatingthantryingtoformarelationshipwithanewperson.


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So,there'salotofthingsthatpeople...Like,therewasjustaninterestingarticlein"NewYorkTimes"aboutcasualfriendships.Thisislikethepersonwhomakesyourcoffeeeverymorning,thepersonwhocutsyourhair,thepersonyouseeinthedogpark.There'salotofvalueintheseverycasualfriendships.So,gooutofyourwaytomakeconversation,toreallytreattheserelationships,toconsiderthemtoberelationshipsofimportancebecauseitturnsoutthattheresearchshowsthattheyreallydohavealotofvalueintermsofourhappylife.Theymakeusmoreempathetic.Theymakeusfeelmoreconnectedtoourneighborhoodandourcommunity.Theyliftusupkindofonadailylevel.Theymakeusfeelmoreconnectedandrecognized.Andso,thesecasualfriendshipsareactuallymoresignificantthanyoumightthink.So,evenforavery,verybusyperson,there'salotofwaysIthinkthatyoucanamplifyyourrelationshipsinawaythatcanreallyboosthappiness.

Katie:Ilovethat.AndIthinkthat'saperfectplacetowrapupwiththatreminderofcommunityrelationshipsandhappiness.Andofcourse,allthebooksthatwe'vetalkedaboutwillbelinkedintheshownotesaswellasyourpodcast.Butwhere'stheeasiestplaceforpeopletofindyouandstayintouch?

Gretchen:Well,atgretchenrubin.com,it'sgotthequizthatwetalkedabout,thefourtendenciesquiz.It'sgotallsortsofresourcesrelatedtomybooks,like,discussionguidesandone-pagers.Andyoucanseemypodcastthere.Ifyouwannalistentoanepisode,youcansubscribe,ofcourse,butyoucangotothewebsite,gretchenrubin.com.AndthenI'malloversocialmediajustasGretchenRubin.AndIlovetoconnectwithreadersandlisteners.Andso,hitmeupifyouhaveaninsight,oranobservation,oraquestion.I'mallovertheplace.

Katie:Awesome.Gretchen,thankyousomuchforthetime.Iknowhowbusyyouare,andI'mhonoredyoutookthetimetobeherewithus.

Gretchen:Oh,I'msohappytotalktoyou.Thankyouforhavingme.

Katie:Andthanksasalwaystoallofyouforlisteningandsharingyourmostvaluableassetofyourtimewithbothofustoday.We'resogratefulthatyoudid.AndIhopethatyouwilljoinmeagainonthenextepisodeofthe"WellnessMamaPodcast."

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

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