rajya sabha

235 Oral Answers [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] to Questions 236

RAJYA SABHA

Tuesday, the 8th November, 1966/the 17th Kartika 1888 (Saka)

Tfra House met at eleven of the clock, MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS (

*31. [Transferred to the 16th. Nov- ember, 1966.]

*32. [Transferred to the 14th Nov-ember, 1966.]

UNDERGROUND NAGA LEADERS' VIEWS ON NAGA ISSUE

*33. SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN: t SARDAR RAM SINGH:

Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether Government's attention has been drawn to the press reports about the views expressed by Mr. Khughato Sukhai, leader of the underground Nagas, in the first week of September, 1966 on the question of conceding neutrality to Nagas in case of conflict; and

(b) if so, what are Government's views in the matter and what were the other points raised in the statement made by the said leader of the underground Nagas?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI DINESH SINGH): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) The Government of India's position is well known. Government cannot agree to a status of Nagaland outside the Indian Union. Other points raised in the statement are:

†The question was actually asked on the floor of the House by Shri S. K. Vaishampayen. 1290 RS—L

(a) Though non-vioience is not a gospel

with the Nagas they (the Nagas) believe in it for solving all political problems.

(b) Naga problem has arisen because the Government of India cancelled the "nine point agreement of July, 1947".

SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN: Sir, whilst the Government is still hope ful of settlement, speeches made by the underground leaders at their so- called parliament in September and the stand reiterated again by Mr. Sukhai in the letter released by him after the recent talks, go to show that there is no common ground for any further negotiations. As such does the Government still feel that there is need for : and, if so, will the Governm . , as the prior condition for such tplks. on their acceptance of a status for Nagaland within the Indian Union, and also put a time limit for that?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: I am not quite clear what the hon. Member has in his mind, as an alternative to talks, for a peaceful solution, but it is quite clear that the Government of India's position is known in this House and elsewhere, that we can only think of a settlement on the readjustment of the present status of Nagaland within the Indian Un,ion.

SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN: My point is: Will the Government insist that unless the Naga underground leaders agree to accept the status within the Indian Union, no further talks shall be carried on? Will this be insisted upon in future talks?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: Are we to insist on that abruptly? Of course we are taking our position. The idea is to get them round, as soon as possible, to accept that position, and if it happens, the talks finish; then the solu-I tion is reached.

237 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 238

SHRI ARJUN ARORA: The open statements made by the leaders of the underground Nagas indicate that there is no common ground between the Government of India and those leaders. May I know if, in the negotiations, they have departed from their stand in any manner and, if not, what is the common ground for the negotiations to continue?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: The common ground is the common desire to find a peaceful solution.

SHRI A. D. MANI: May I ask the Minister whether during the course of the discussions with ihe leaders of the underground Nagas, any point was made by the leaders regarding the Government of Nagaland being consulted in matters of defence whenever there is a conflict?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: Sir, many things come up in the course of discussions. It is very difficult for me to go into any details dt this stage.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: Sir, since these negotiations have gone on for a very long time and, if I may say so, we have looked at the whole thing with a sense of admiration for the patience of the Government, is it


possible for them even at this stage to say to this House and to this country, "This is our solution and this is the limit to which this Government can go at any time. We place our cards on the table." Can they make a constructive proposal which this House, the other House and the whole country will consider absolutely reasonable and the rejection of which will be at the peril of the Nagas themselves? Can they produce and put before this House and the country such a constructive proposal?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: Having been with the great leaders, as he has been, the hon. Member should realise that in talks one cannot take the position of the nature that he has indicated. Things emerge jn talks. You don't go with preconceived ideas and firm positions, as he is talking about, except that a solution can be found within the existing position that Nagaland is a part of India.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Next question.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: I have not mentioned any 'firm position'.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have passed on to the next quesion.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: One moment. He cannot misinterpret what I say and answer the question that way.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 am sorry I have passed on to the next question.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: I have only one elucidation to ask for. I have not mentioned any 'firm position'.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I hope you will allow me to pass on to the next question.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: But then will you rule also that, when an answer is given, the question

should not be twisted to mean something else, other than what was meant?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Next question.

*34. [The questioner (Dewan CJw-man Lall) was absent. For answer, vide col. 270 infra.]

'MILITARY BALANCE 1966-67'

*35. SHRl P. C. MITRA: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the Institute of Strategic Studies, London in its annual publication "The Military Balance 1966-67" has stated that in contrast to the rapid build-up of armed forces in Pakistan, the size of the Indian Army has remained static or even fallen; and

(b) if so, what is the reaction of Government thereto?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHR A. M. THOMAS): (a) and (b) While the publication has given its estimate of the strength and equipment of Pakistani armed forces and Indian armed forces, it does not make any comment on the build-up of Pak and Indian armed forces, nor does it make any assessment of the comparative build-up of the armed strength of India and Pakistan. The fighting element in the Indian Army has not remained static or fallen.

A comparison between the Pakistani army strength as shown in the 'Military Balance', 1965-66 with that shown in the 'Military Balance' 1966-67 does show a very substantial increase in the Pakistani build-up of armed forces. This tallies broadly with our own information on the

subject. SHRI P. C. MITRA: May I know, Sir, whether the Government believes


that this Institute of Strategic .Studies is one of the best authorities in regard to the army build-up of different nations?

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: Sir, by and large this publication gives some sort of an authoritative statement but as has been, mentioned previously also, on some vital factors they also commit mistakes. They have not shown perhaps even in the previous publication the losses correctly that we suffered and thai Pakistan suffered in the last conflict. That has not been assessed properly.

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: Yes, Sir. Even

from the build-up that has been shown as existing in 1965-66 and as existing in 1966-67 it shows that the Pakistan Army has undoubtedly undergone a sizeable increase both in the number of men and in the number of infantry divisions and armoured divisions and it also shows that our in-formation on the subject, which has been disclosed on the floor of this House as well as the other House, more or less tallies with the strength that has been shown, by this publication as existing in 1966-67.

SHRI C. D. PANDE: Apart from the assessment made by this publication, is Government not aware of the fact that there are three or four new acquisitions of items made by Pakistan defence forces, that is, the acquisition of three submarines, the ^acquisition of 86 sabre jets which were supposed to have been transferred to Iran but which are really speaking under the control of Pakistan forces within the Iranian territory in a landing ground which is controlled by Pakistan and also 200 new anti-air- I craft guns and 100 tanks from China? i

May I know whether these things have not outbalanced our defence strength or whether we are still ahead of Pakistan?

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: Sir, in fact I have gone through this publication as well as the statement made in, both Houses of Parliament with regard to the Pakistan build-up. By a comparison it is seen that Pakistan has recouped its losses—about that we have made a statement here—and that she has a so increased her army from 5 infantry divisions to 11 ' infantry divisions. That also is seen from this publication. Then, Sir, the manpower in the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir has also increased considerably, and in addition to the tanks, China has agrsed to supply enough equipment to Pakistan to arm at least two divisions. This has also been already disclosed on the floor of this House. Besides that, there is the question of acquisition of submarines. Sir, yesterday I disclosed on the floor of the other House that Pakistan has placed an order with a French firm—that is our information—for the acquisition of three submarines.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gujral.

SHRl RAJNARAIN: Sir, on a point of order.


SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Sir, I am glad that the hon. Minister is giving his attention to this. May I ask him this? According to the publication and according to what he has himself revealed it is not a question whether India is static or not. The fact remains that the proportion of development in Pakistan in defence forces and defence equipment and the qualitative changes coming about in the firing power of Pakistan plus the backing it is having of China is having an adverse effect over the whole situation. May i ask the hon. Minister if he has taken steps to see that our shooting power also undergoes the some qualitative changes on the basis of which Pakistan is equipping herself?

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: I can give this assurance to the hon. House that as far a& our fighting capacity is concerned it is not remaining static and another fact which I wculd like the hon. Members to understand is this. There is what is called the teeth-tail ratio. It is the teeth that matter. As far as the army is concerned it is not the tail, as much as the teeth, that matters. And we are trying to reduce as much as possible the tail but not the teeth so that as far as the equipment side is concerned, as far as the fighting capacity of the troops is concerned, we are looking into it, we are quite conscious of that. We have also noticed that as far as Pakistan is concerned after the 1965 hostilities they have tried to increase their army strength and other things to a very considerable extent. We are proceed-ing according to a definite plan, the plan of 1964-69, which involves an outlay of Rs. 5,000 crores. We are proceeding according to that plan and that plan to the extent possible is being implemented also. I can also assure the hon. House that we need not have any apprehension that we are lagging behind or that we are not conscious of the build-up in Pakistan.

TASHKENT DECLARATION

*36. SHRl SITARAM JAIPURIA: t SHRI ABDUL GHANI: SARDAR RAM SINGH:


(a) whether Government have received any reply to the communication sent to Pakistan between July 6 and August 6, 1966 for an official-level meeting between India and Pakistan to pave the way for another Ministerial conference under the Tashkent Declaration;

(b) if so, the nature of the reply received; (c) when the next official-levei meeting

is expected to be held; and

(d) whether any communication has been received 'from the Prim« Minister of the Soviet Union for implementation of the Declaration?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) Yes, Sir. The replies to the Government of India's notes of July 6, and August 6 were given on July 22nd and August 31st respective ly.

(b) and (c) In their replies the Government of Pakistan sought advance assurances from the Government of India in regard to the Kashmir question which amounted to th* attachment of pre-conditions to th* proposed Indo-Pakistan meeting. Th* Government of India have repeatedly made it clear to the Government of Pakistan that while any subject could be discussed, it should be the endeavour of both sides to improve relations in whatever fields was possible and make as much progress as possible in all fields without making progress on any particular issue dependent on progress on any other. Further implementation of the Tashkent

tThe question was actually asked on the floor of the House by Shri Sitaram Jaipuria.


Declaration can best be achieved by the two sides meeting without preconditions and with a sincere desire to expand the areas of agreement. In view of Pakistan's continued opposition to such an approach it has not so far been possible to arrange a meeting.

(d) No, Sir.

SHRl SITARAM JAIPURIA: Sir, the hon. Minister of External Affairs while attending the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference took the opportunity of discussing with the Pakistan Foreign Minister. May I know what were the proposals he put forward and what was the reaction of the Pakistan Foreign Minister to those proposals?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: Sir, I want to make it clear that there was no discussion as such with the Pakistan Foreign Minister during the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference in London. The only occasion when we met alone was at more or less a social meet when I had invited the Pakistan Foreign Minister to dinner and there was no discussion as such between the two Foreign Ministers.

SHRI NIREN GHOSH: May I know

whether Pakistan has sought this assurance—do I understand from your reply—that the Kashmir question must first be solved and then only other questions would be taken up or whether they demanded that all questions including Kashmir also would be discussed and if so, since the Tashkent Declaration includes that we are to settle the question of Kashmir also


peacefully, what prevents the India Government from having a discussion on the subject?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: Sir, this point has been mentioned here irom time to time. I have also placed on the Table of the House copies of certain notes that passed between the two Governments. The position, which was absolutely unreasonable, was taken up by the Pakistan. Foreign Minister at the last March meeting in Islamabad that no progress on any other issue, any discussion on any other issue, could proceed or should be undertaken unless what he described as purposeful discussion or some progress was made on the question of Kashmir. We made it quite clear that whereas we were prepared to discuss any matter that might be raised by the other side, to make one thing contingent on another was something which was not acceptable to us.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: There is an impression that the Government on a diplomatic plane is deficient whenever Pakistan raises the question of Kashmir. Now, we understand the Government's position. Why jn that case is the Government not returning to the proposal very wisely made by the late Prime Minister Nehru in 1954 when he said that he was prepared to discuss on the basis of the cease-Are line being made the international boundary? He made it at a public meeting and also otherwise. Why is the Government not saying it suo rnotu—quite apart from what is said in, the Tashkent Declaration or negotiations in, other matters with the Pakistan Government—that the Indian Government is prepared to take the reality into account and settle it on that basis, subject to certain minor adjustments? Why is not such a statement being made in order to have a political and diplomatic edge ov*>r the kind of prevarications and other things that are taking place 0n the other fide?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I refuse to accept that either on the d;n-lomatic plane or on the political p'arie we are deficient, that we feel weak

249 OralAnswers[ RAJYSABHA] 250

when anybody refers to the question of Kashmir. That weakness might be there in the minds of certain hon. Members opposite, but so far as the Government is concerned, we are quite clear about our position, on Kashmir. We feel no deficiency and we have no diffidence in defending our position on. the question of Kashmir. The hon. Member raised this question some time ago on the floor of this House and I refused to accept that suggestion, because you cannot unilaterally decide anything and cannot declare something which it is not in our national interest to declare. So, the ultimate position is . . .

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I have understood it . . .

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I do not give way to Mr. Bhupesh Gupta. Let me complete my answer. Afterwards he can ask. I do not accept it that it is in our national interest to make a declaration of the type which has been suggested by Mr. Bhupesh Gupta.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I have never said that any declaration should be made. All I say is, return to that proposal, viz., on that basis the Government is prepared to have consultations with Pakistan. You may say it suo motu. I am not such a great fool as you think.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you quite lure?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: One of us must be a fool.

SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJYAPEE: How can we judge it?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: As to what should be our proposal in the course of any negotiation, is a matter which cannot be the subject-matter of debate even in this august House. We have always made the position absolutely clear that Jammu and

Kashmir is a constituent State of the Indian Union. At the same time, there are certain matters which still requires to be settled between the two countries. We are prepared to sit and discuss without any pre-condition. And I would appeal to the intelligence of Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, to which he makes a very lavish claim, that he should think over this matter before he makes a suggestion of that type.

SHRI A. D. MANI: The Soviet Union is a signatory to the Tashkent Declaration. Has the Government referred the question of Pakistan reopening the Kashmir issue as a condition for negotiation to it and asked for its opinion and, if so, what is the opinion of the Soviet Union on the subject?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: We do not seek the opinion of any other country on these matters.

†The question was actually asked on the flour of the House by Shr* Sundar Singh Bhandari.


t [PAKISTANI AERODROME IN IRAN

*37. SHRI D. THENGARI: SHRI SUNDAR SINGH

BHANDARI: SHRI I. K. GUJRAL:

Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFRAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that Pakistan has constructed an aerodrome for Jet aircraft at Zahidan in Iran;

(b) whether it is a fact that the 90 Jet aircraft, which have been called back by Iran, from Pakistan, will be kept in the same aerodrome under the control of Pakistan;

(c) whether it is a fact that there is a danger to the Indian petrol tanks coming from the Gulf of Iran.; and

(d) if so, what is Government's reaction in this connection?]

t[THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE

MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI DINESH SINGH): (a) and (b). Government have seen press reports alleging that Iran has given to Pakistan the facility of a military air base where the F-86 aircraft, which

Iran had agreed to bring back from Pakistan, would remain under the control of Pakistan. The Government have, made enquiries, but no information on the existence of any such arrangements between Pakistan and Iran has come to light.

(c) and (d) Government have no such information.]

SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: The Government may not be aware of the actual base having been established, but is it not a fact that there is an understanding between the Western Powers to create a Muslim bloc of this type which will endanger our defences very adversely? If so, has the Government taken up the matter?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: It is true that these blocs, these conferences and others that are being talked about, based on religion, of an Islamic Conference, have, according to our general assessment, the backing of the re-actionary and imperialist forces.

SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: The hon. Minister has just stated that the planes which were originally supplied to Pakistan through Iran had gone back. May I ask the hon. Minister whether he is aware of the fact that such planes, whenever they are received by any receiving party, are equipped with the spares? Is it our intelligence that when the planes were sent back, the spares were not left in Pakistan to be used in tho&e planes which were darnaged in last year's conflict?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: I cannot say that. They may have given them spares. The idea was, and that is what we were informed, the plane* were sent to Pakistan for repairs. Ob-viously they had some spares to repair them there.

SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: Another member of the Government stated a few minutes ago vis-a-vis the ratio of


the defence strength between India and Pakistan that we are fully equipped. Is the Government not aware or has the Government not taken any steps to see that such bases are not there r%ally? Are the reports in the press correct or incorrect? Has not the Government been able to collect this information from the intelligence sources of other powers as well?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: I have given the information that we have been able to gather. It is very difficult to say what is happening in another country. In regard to defence ar-rangements they maintain secrecy. Also, one other point. If we do come to know of some such thing, it is not always very easy to discuss it.

SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJYAPEE: I should like to know whether our Ambassador in Iran has made any formal representation in this regard to the Government of Iran and, if eo, whether any reply has been received.

SHRI DINESH SINGH: No, Sir. No formal representation has been made.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: May I know if any informal representation hag been made?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Information has been collected.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: He has said no formal representation has been made. But our Ministers are in the habit of making informal representations. Has that sort of thing been made in this particular case? If not, why is the Government so silent, the Indian diplomat there?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: We are not silent. We do not shout about things.

SHRl BHUPESH GUPTA: I am ..asking whether your Minister in.

Teheran in his private talk made thig point without giving a formal note or any such thing. That surely is not shouting. But was there any whisper?

SHRI DINESH SINGH: When he gathered this information, he must have talked to some people.

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I would like to add that we have been in touch with the Government of Iran, with the Government of West Germany and also with the Government of Canada. As a result of all these efforts we had this result when most of these planes, as has already been mentioned, have gone back to Iran.

*3S. [Transferred to the 16th November, 1966.]

KUTCH TRIBUNAL

•39. SHRI R. P. KHAITAN: f SHRI S. SUPAKAR; DR. (MRS.) MANGLADEVI

TALWAR: SHRi JAGAT NARAIN:


(a) the progress so far made by the International Tribunal on the dispute over the areas of Kutch between India and Pakistan;

(b) when it is likely to give its award; and

(c) what expenditure has so far been incurred by the Government of India on presentation of our case be fore the Tribunal?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) and (b). Pursuant to the decisions of the Tribunal taken at its session held in Geneva in February 1966, both India and Pakistan

†The question was actually asked on the floor of the House by Shri R. P. Khailan.

:255 Oral Answers [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] to Questions 256

•imultaneously presented theij memo- i rials, counter-memorials and replies to the Tribunal by June 1, August 1, and September 1, 1966, respectively. The oral hearings before the Tribunal commenced on the 15th September, 1966, at Geneva and the counsel for India addressed the Tribunal. The opening address of the Indian counsel concluded on the 19th October. The leading counsel for Pakistan has commenced his opening address. After the conclusion of his address counsel for India will reply and then the counsel for Pakistan will reply. The tribunal will give their award there-after.

(c) The accounts regarding actual •expenditure incurred so far have not yet been compiled.

SHRI S. SUPAKAR: May I know af any tentative date for the award has been fixed?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: No, Sir.

SHRI BABUBHAI M. CHINAI: Sir, "before I put the question I want to seek your permission to make a change in the question in regard to the year 1959 which should be 1929. With this amendment I put my ques-tion.

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: My answer is according to the original.

SUPPLY OP OLD MAPS TO ARMY

•40. SHRI BABUBHAI M. CHINAI: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the army was supplied with maps prepared in 1959 during the engagement with Pakistan in September, 1965; and

(b) if so, the reasons for the maps not being brought up-to-date?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) Although some of the maps had been prepared in 1959, the bulk of the primary maps sup-plied were those printed subsequent to 1959 and in some cases as late as 1965. Even so all essential data collected subsequent to the preparation of the maps had been supplied to the concerned Army formations to bring their knowledge up-to-date.

(b) Does not arise.

SHRI BABUBHAI M. CHINAI; May I know if it is a fact that these old maps were supplied during the Pakistani aggression to our people and thereby they were not in a position to locate the topography of the place with the result that the Pakistani people attacked us and we had to run away, putting our arms and ammunition behind, helter skelter?

SHRI A. M THOMAS: That has not happened. I think the hon. Member is misinformed about the situation. In fact as I have already indicated, most of the maps have been printed subsequently to 1959, and I may also say that all essential data collected subsequent to the preparation of any maps are supplied to the army formations from time to time to enable them to keep their knowledge up-to-date. That is what has been done in the last conflict also.

SHRI G. MURAHARI: The Government in its reply has said that some maps of 1929 were supplied. I would like to know why the Government did not change all these maps soon after they got independence. Are we to take it that this Government still has the hangover of the British Empire here? It is 1966 today and we are being told that maps prepared in 1929 are still in existence with the army. I would like to have an answer from the Government why these maps are allowed to be there.

257 ORAL Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 258.

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: Even with regard to old maps, I have indicated that all subsequent information we receive will be all incorporated in the old maps so that the hon. Member need not have any apprehension that up-to-date knowledge has not been conveyed to the formations. I may also submit that the task of modifying maps from time to time is undertaken in a phased programme. Having regard to our long land frontiers it would not be easy to be up-to-date in every respect with regard to all areas. But we have drawn up a list of priorities with regard to sensitive areas and other important places. We give importance to that and prepare the necessary maps and give them to the formations concerned.

SHRI A. D. MANI: Did any Army Commander complain that out-of-date maps were supplied to them during the operations?

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: I have no information about it.

SHRI NIREN GHOSH: I would like to know whether these were military maps, 1929 maps, or these maps were maps showing our border, or whether it is a fact that old maps ghowed our international border differently and so they have been withdrawn, and if so, why they were given to the military at all.

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: There is a Department under the Ministry of Education but the head of that Department is a military officer, the Director General. We have also a particular Section in the Army Headquarters also to deal with these maps, and the Department under the Ministry of Education caters to both the civil side and the military side. As far as the military side is concerned it deals with what are called the primary maps, these large-scale maps, where the peculiar places, the particular places and strategic positions have to be indicated in the maps.

INDIAN AMBASSADOR IN SPAIN

*41. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the Indian Ambassador in Madrid Maharaja of Jaipur, has expressed his desire to resign from the diplomatic post; and

(b) if so, the reasons for the same?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) No, Sir.

(b) Does not arise.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: ls it a fact that last year there was an agreement between some leaders of the Congress Party and the Maharaja of Jaipur, who was a Member of this House, that he should go as an Ambassador to a foreign country, that he should not come during the fourth general election, and that, if possible,, he should also take away his wife as the First Lady in the Embassy? After that it would appear that the Ambassador's wife, the lady, has come back. The Ambassador is also now coming, back to participate in the elections om behalf of the Swatantra Party. If there any truth in it or is there any communication or hint or suggestion) of that kind?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: It is: only in the imagination of the hon^ Member when he talked of any agreement between the Maharaja of Jaipur and the Congress Party. In fact » number of holy and unholy alliances, electoral alliances, amongst various parties of the Opposition are there. I am not quite sure whether the great party to which Mr. Bhupesh Gupta belongs is actually free from, such alliances, holy and unholy, in many parts of the country. So there was no questions of any understanding of the type that was mentioned by the hon. Member. This is a free country.

259 Oral Answers L 8 NOV. 1966 ] to Questions 260

Husband and wife in many cases are known to belong to different parties and we are quite familiar with that phenomenon. It is not confined only to the Maharaja. Even regarding others, Socialists, Congressmen Communists also, there are husbands and wives belonging to different parties Whatever are their likes or dislikes for contesting the election it is a matter for them to decide. So long as he is the Ambassador he is under the discipline of the Government and he cannot obviously think of a political life. In fact when he met me in London a few months back, he said that all these news items that are appearing are absolutely unfounded and that he likes his work and he wants to continue.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You have seen what a long answer he has given covering the entire electoral strategy of all the parties. I am absolutely on this point. Now I say that we do not separate the husband from the wife. We never do it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: A good thing.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: We want a good conjugal life. Here was Mr. Man Singh, the Maharaja of Jaipur. As far as we know, he did not belong to the Congress Party. He was in the Opposition and was directly associated with the Swatantra Party and he was a great patron of the Swatantra Party in Rajasthan. May I know how it is that the Government's choice fell on him when everybody knows that the international policy of the Swatantra Party and its friend is entirely different from what the Government pursues? What is the special reason for this grand choice that was made for appointment as Ambassador? Do I understand that the Congress Party is so short of intelligence, elementary intelligence, for this purpose that they could not find anyone from their party and had to go and intrude into the Opposition in order again to grab the Wrong man?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: We have not been swayed by political and party considerations in making appointments of Ambassadors.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: What was the consideration? Because he has a beautiful wife? (Interruptions) It you read books on diplomacy and other things, you will find in many books written in England that it is advantageous to h^ve an Ambassador who has a beautiful wife- Therefore, I am not asking any irrelevant question. That is why I am asking you.

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: A bahetor is not entitled to ask that question.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; I see. He said, a bachelor is not entitled to ask that question. Then do I understand that only married people have the right to know evrything about it?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do not go into this.

SARDAR SWARAN STNGH: We know a bit more about it than the bachelors.

DR. B. N. ANTANI: Is it not because the Swatantra Party is more respected by the Government Benches than the other parties?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: J have already said that in the appointment of our Ambassadors or representatives to our missions abroad, we are not swayed by political and party considerations, but by the suitability of an individual for a particu^r job to which he is sent.

SHRI ARJUN ARORA: May I know if in appointing an Ambassador abroad the Government takes care to ascertain that the gentleman or the lady appointed believes in the foreign policy of the Government . . .

261 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Question^ 262

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Never.

SHRI ARJUN ARORA: ... and undertakes to project in any country to which he or she is accredited that policy?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH; That is the minimum requirement and that is the minimum expectation from any head of mission that he should project the policy of the Government of which he is the representative.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Now, here he was speaking on foreign policy matters. The proceedings of Parliament will show that he was expressing views on foreign policy matters exactly in the opposite way to the position of the Government. What is the secret then behind the sudden choice?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: There is no secret, Sir. It was an open choice, and even the hon. Member has woken up after a considerable time.

VISIT OF U.K. IMPERIAL DEFENCE COLLEGE TEAM TO INDIA

*42. SHRI NIREN GHOSH: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that a 15-meiriiber team of officers from t&«* United Kingdom Imperial Defence College came to India and visited Jamm<u and Kashmir for four days;

(b) if so, the purpose of the visit and details of the itinerary of the team in India;

(c) whether Government have made any assessment of the outcome of the visit and if so, what are the results; and

(d) who paid the expenses of the team in India?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M.

THOMAS): (a) and Ob) A party of 15 consisting of staff and student-officers of Imperial Defence College, London, visited this country from 7th September to 15th September, 1966 and again from 18th to 20th September, 1966.

The purpose of such visits is to enable student-officers to broaden their outlook. The team visited, besides Delhi, Agra, Ambala, Sri-nagar, Calcutta, Foona, Bangalore, Madras and Bombay. They stayed at Srinagar for four days for sight-seeing.

(c) Apart from being of benefit to the student-officers themselves, such-visits create good will.

(d) All expenditure in connection with the travel, transport, messing and accomimodation was borne by the visitors themselves. However, expenditure on special entertainments given by the Ministry of Defence and Service authorities was incurred by the Government of India.

SHRI NIREN GHOSH: Since it was a military team which visited, -may I know whether all the military secrets at those places were placed at their disposal in order to broaden their outlook so that they could study India's military strategy?

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: With regard to visits to the defence installations, foreign visitors—it is the general policy of the Government—are not shown the secret sections or the sensitive areas.

SHRI NIREN GHOSH: Is it a fact that Gen. Tibbet, the notorious Hiroshima air pilot, as the Chief of the US Mission visited Jammu and Kashmir and other delicate parts and was shown all the military installations and the strategic planning made by the Government of India?

SHRI A. D. MANI: Uni'.ed Kingdom not United States.

263 Orol Answers [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] to Questions 264'

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: I have already said, Sir, that so far as Jammu and Kashmir is concerned, they did not visit any installations; it was mainly with the Object of sight-seeing.

SHRI A P. CHATTERJEE: May I know whether the Defence Ministry took precautions to see that the Military secrets in Jammu and Kashmir were not made available to this Imperial Defence College team which came according to the Minister to broaden its outlook but which according to our apprehension came merely to collect military secrets from India?

SHRI A. M. THOMAS: No secrets were either asked for or given. Sir, it was 'mainly a goodwill visit; no official discussions were there. They put some questions for clarifica-tion. We kept to ourselves aR that which could not be divulged. We divulged only those things that we generally give out to the public.

SHRI NIREN GHOSH: He did not reply to that question, whether he allowed the military secrets to it. He has not replied to it. He cannot bypass our question in this matter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: He is not by-• passing.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: A charge has been imade.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Next question. Mr. Banka Behary Das.

COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE

'43. SHRI BANKA BEHARY DAS: f SHRI R. S. KHANDEKAR:

Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state;

†The question was actually asked on the floor of the House by Shri Banka Behary Das.

(a) whether the question of Indc— Pak

relations was raised at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference held in London in September, 1966;

(b) if so, who raised the question and what was the reaction of other 'member countries; and

(c) what stand the Indian representative took in that matter?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL. AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARN SINGH): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) and (c) The Foreign Minister of Pakistan alluded to Indo-Pak differences and Kashmir during his speech on the world political situation. The leader of the Indian Delegation intervened immediately and objected to such reference to India's domestic affairs and bilateral deffe-rences in the Commonwealth forum;. it was also pointed out that India and Pakistan had agreed according to Tashkent Declaration to resolve bilaterally all their differences by peaceful means. Our objection was upheld. There was no reference to Indo-Pakistan differences or Kashmir in the Final Coimsmunique.

SHRI BANKA BEHARY DAS: May I know from the Minister whether, when this Tashkent Agreement was being discussed, he referred to the question of the violation of those declarations constantly by Pakistan and, if so, what was the reaction of the United Kingdom in that matter?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: No, Sir, I did net refer at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference to the violations of the Tashkent Declaration. We must not b^w hot and cold. Our attitude is firm that bilateral issues should be discussed between India and Pakistan and we should resist this temptation of trying to convince others about the righteousness of our case.

SHRI BANKA BEHARY DAS: May I know from the Minister whether,.

265 Orol Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 266

when this international situation was I being discussed, India raised the ques- J tion of Chinese collusion with Pakistan which has a very great bearing ' on Indo-Pak relations and, if so, wh .' are the reactions of other countrie -:

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: Sir, the Chinese threat in this region was actually mentioned by the Indian Delegation to the members of the other delegations also.

SHRI R. S. KHANDEKAR: May I know what is the particu'ar advantage of this Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference and secondly whether in that Conference the Government of India drew the attention of the British Government that they took up an anti-Indian attitude at the time of the Indo-Pak war and, if so, what was the reaction of the British Government?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: The first question is a general one which has been discussed here from time to time. We continue to feel and hold the view that our association in the Com-:monwealth is important not only from the point of view of the multi-racial Commonwealth but also as a forum for forging unity among the Afro-Asian-Carribean members of the Commonwealth. And on this score it was demonstrated that by purposeful cooperation we can raise the requisite amount of pressure against the colonial power on an important issue like Rhodesia. About other matters, the international situation and economic matters and all those issues were discussed. It is a forum where countries participate as independent countries, as sovereign countries, and any group of this type affords a forum where we can out across our view-points on important international issues.

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I did not make that suggastion. I have no intention to make that suggestion because that is the suress way of keeping tension alive.

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE: May I know, Sir, whether the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference has of late become merely a debating forum where no fruitful conclusions are arrived at, which lead to no results and, if I may say so, actually the fund of the Exchequer is unnecessarily

267" Oral Answers [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] to Questions 268

spent upon going, visiting and participating in this so-called Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I do not accept the premises of the question. The second part of the question does not arise.

SHRI D. THENGARI: Sir, can the Government enumerate the material advantages from our membership of Commonwealth?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I cannot enumerate it in that form.

SHRI G. MURAHARI: Why do you continue then?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: With regard to the first part of the question it was reported in. the papers that apart frcm formal meetings at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, there was exchange of dinner between the Foreign Minister here and his Pakistani counterpart. May I know, Sir, whether in the course. Of these formal dinners—I have no objection to that—anything was suggested informally and whether certain fruitful d'scussions took place apart from enjoying the food?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I have already answered that question.

SHRT MULKA GOVINDA REDDY: Tn view of the fact that Gr"at B~;ta:n is tak'ng an anti-Indian attitude— .particularly during the Indo-Pak. confVct it exhibited its anti-Indian attitude.—and in view of the fact that it Ins not be°n able to solve the problem of Rhodesia, the Government is thinking it fit and proper to quit the Commonwealth?

SARDAR SWARAN S"NGH: No, Sir. We fre nit +h:nking of quitting the Commonwealth.

SHR! BHUP^H GTTPTA: Why not? It is a simple question. 1290 RSD—2.

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: I do not think that it is wise to do so.

SHRI N. SRI RAMA REDDY: In any case I would like to ask if no political question was discussed r.t thy dinner exchanged between the Foreign Ministers what else was discussed? And why at all a dinner was exchanged? Is it a social thing or anything connnected with the politics of this country?

SARDAR SWARAN SINGH: Essentially social. If social contacts stabilise, then purposeful talks ran also follow.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Next question. SHRI

A. P. CHATTERJEE: Sir'

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have already allowed you a few questions. I will not allow any more question.

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE: That is true but . . ,

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have already put a question and I have passed on to the next question.

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE: That is true but I am asking you to consider whether under rule 54(3) of the Rules of Procedure you can request the Minister of External Affairs to answer question No 34 which is a very important question but which could not be answered because to honb'le Member was absent.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: No. It cannot be done.

SMALL ATOMIC POWER STATIONS

•44. SHRI N. SRI RAMA REDDY-will the PRIME M.N"STER be pleased to state whether there is any pro- posai under Government's consideration for establishing a series of small atomic rower stations all over the

country?

269 Written Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 270-

THE PRIME MINISTER AND MINISTER OF ATOMIC ENERGY (SHRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI): No, Sir.

SHRI N. RAMA REDDY: May I know, Sir, whether there is any possibility at all, basing on our experience and experimentation in this atomic energy, 01 tnis kind of thing coming to the aid of extra production of power wherever such power is not available in this country?

SRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI: Sir, as 1 said, there is no proposal under our consideration for the immediate establishment of small size atomic power stations. In fact nuclear pawei stations of small size are njt economical and the cost of generation of power frcm them is high and cannot compete with the cost of power gene-ration from thermal stations. Trends in power reactor technilogy show that the larger the reactor the cheaper is the cost of the generation.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The only thing I would like to know is whether atomic power can be installed in the Secretariat so that files move a little quicker.

SHRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI: I am sorry.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Sir, atomic energy should be utilised in the Secretariat so that the files move a little quickly.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is a suggestion | for action.

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE: May I know, Sir, whether the Prime Minis ter will inform the House o' the use which this atomic energy station is being put to other than proiuc:ng radio-active isotopes of which, of course, we have heard much? What other uses is this atomic energy sta tion being put to?

SHRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI; Generation of power.

SHRI NIREN GHOSH: May 1 know, Sir, whether the Government would consider the setting up of o big atomic power station in view of the fact that India is short of power and that our natural resources are too little in that respect?

SHRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI: Sir, there are two atomic power stations on which work is in progress. One is the Tarapore Atomic Power Station and the second is the first unit of the Rajasthan Atomic Power Station. Tarapore Atomic Power Station w\ will generate 330 M.W. power is expected to be commissioned in October 1988 while the Rajasthan Atomic Power Station first unit will supply 200 M.W. power and is expected to go into operation late in 1969. The Fourth Five Year Plan provides an addition of a second 200 M.W. unit at the Rajasthan Atomic Power Station to be commissioned in 1971 and the establishment of a 400 M. W. atomic power station consisting of two units of 200 M.W. each at Kalpakkam in the Madras State, the first unit of which will be commissioned in 11*71 and the second in 1973.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Question Hour is over.

WRITTEN ANSFERS TO QUESTIONS

FOREIGN BASES IN THE INDIAN OCEAN

♦34. DIWAN CHAMAN LALL: Will the Minister 0f EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether there are any military bases in the "ndian Ocean controlled by any foreign power;

(b) if so, which foreign power controls the bases; and

(c) where these bases are located?

271 Written Answers [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] to Questions 272

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) to (c): A statement listing foreign military base-s in the Indian Ocean area is placed on the Table of the House.

STATEMENT

Nora.—In Darwin and Freemantle (Australian territory) there are Surface to Air Missile tases where the UK and the USA have facilities.

A.I.R. INTO A CORPORATION

•45. SHRI P. K. KUMARAN; SHRT M. V. BHADRAM: SHRI M. M. DHARIA:

Will the Min;ster of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) whether the Chanda Committee's recommendation regarding the constitution o" an autonomous corporation for th? All India Radio has been examined by Government; and

(b) if so, what is the decision taken thereon?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) and (b) The re-commendation is still under consideration and Government's decision will be announced as early as possible.

CULTURAL AND SCIENTIFIC TIES BETWEEN INDIA AND GERMANY

•46. SHRIMATI TARA RAMCHANDRA SATHE: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased

to state whether any suggestions wrre made by the German Parliamentary Delegation headed by Dr. D. H. Martin to strengthen cultural and scientific ties betwe:n India and Germany?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFATRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): A delegation consisting of fiv3 members of the sub-Committee on C:i"'v-'l 'Rations of the Parliament of the Federal Republic of Ger-many, led by Dr. BerthoM Martin, visited India from the 19th to 30ni September. 1966. The purpose of this delegation's visit was to gather information on FRG's cultural activi ies in Ind;a and Indian cultural institutions. No specific suggestions were made by th; delegation during this visit.

INDIA'S INITIATIVE TO SOLVE THE VIETNAM TANGLE

•47. SARDAR RAM SINGH: SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: DR (SHRIMATI^ MANGLA-

DEVI TALWAR: SHRI UTTAM SINGH DUGAL:


(a) whether, in view of the offer made by th? Government of the United States of America to stop bombing in Vietnam, the Government of India have taken any initiative 10 help solve the Vietnam tangle; and

(b) if so, what has been the response from the other parties in this matter?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI DINESH SINGH): (a) No, Sir. The Government have not receivrd any su-h offer from U.S. Government. Government of India continue to believe that stoppage of bombing without any pre-con>litions is the first sfeo towards finding solution of th» Vietnam problem.

(b) Does not arise.

273 Written Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 274

TALKS WITH NAGA HOSTILES

•48. SHRI S. SUPAKAR: SHRI V. M. CHORDIA: SHRI D. THENGARI; SHRI OM MEHTA:


(a) whether the negotiations with the underground Naga leaders have reached a final stage;

(b) what is Government's reaction towards the statement made by the leader of the delegation while coming for talks to the effect that if the present round of discussion fails, he might approach other nations of the world to get a sovereign State;

(c) what steps are being taken to check the forced collection of money from the citizens by the Naga hostiles; and

(d) whether it is a fact that the subversive activities of the hostile Nagas continue unabated?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI DINESH SINGH): (a) No agreement has been reached so far.

(b) It has already been made dear to the Underground Naga delegation, when they came to Delhi in August, that efforts to seek any assistance from outside would only complicate matters and against the agreement on the suspension of operations.

(c) The Governments of Aseam, Nagaland and Manipur are taking necessary steps to prevent commission of unlawful acts by the Underground Nagas and to protect life -nd property of citizens. The concerned Governments have already issued inductions to Administrative Officers to use the Police Force and, if necessary, Sec Forces in aid of the civil power to prevent commission of violent acts by the Underground Naga3, or -any one else for that matter.

(d) There have been no incidents of violent nature in Nagaland during the past three months. Hostile activities in Nagaland are confined to collection of money, parading with arms in the villages "and kidnapping of yourigmen for recruitment in the Underground Armed groups. The Underground have intensified their activities in Manipur particularly in the Ukhrul Sub-division. Effective steps are being taken by the Government to counter these activities.

N.C.C. CADET INSTRUCTORS

♦49. SHRI Y. A. REDDY: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state;

(a) whether it is a fact that Government have appointed non-military personnel trained 'as Cadet Instructors for N.C C. in colleges in lieu of J.C.Os. and NCOs.;

(b) if the answer to part (a) above is in the affirmative, whether the appointment of these persons has been made on a temporary basis and if so, for what period and what is their scale of p^y and allowances; and

(c) what are the avenues of promotions for these Cadet Instructors?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRO-DUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) and (c) A statement is laid on the Table of the House.

STATEMENT

Appointment of Under Officer and Sergeant Major Instructors on whole time basis in lieu of regular Army J.C.Os/N.COs. is purely temporary. The period of initial engagement is two years extendable by on 3 year at a time Their services can be terminated at any time even before com-i pletion of the initial/.x tended tenure


at the discretion of the Director General N.C.C. Their pay scales are given below: —

2. The N.C.C Organisation also have part

f'me Cadet Instructors who are employed from among serving N.C.C. Cadets. These Cadet Instructors while pursuing their normal studies, work eight hours a week. Part time Under Officer Instructors/Sergeant Major Instructors are paid Rs. 50.00/Rs. 30.00 p.m. as 'Out of Pocket Expenses'.

3. Whole time Sergeant Major Ins tructors are promoted to the rank of Unier Officer Instructor (whole time) provided they—

(i) posses N.CC. Certificate 'C;

(ii) have a minimum of one year's service as Sergeant Major Instructor;

(iii) are considered fit for promotion; and

(iv) a vacancy of a whole time Under Officer Instructor exists.

4. Part time Cadet Instructors have no avenues of promotions.

MEETING O? ARMY CHIEFS OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN

•50. SHRI N. R. M. SWAMY: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state the terms of the recent agreement entered into between the Chief of the Army Staff, India and Commander-in-Chief of Pakistan Army to prevent any flare-up on the border?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): A copy of the record of discussions between the then C-in-C Designate. Pakistan Army and the Chief of the Army Staff, India held on 13/14th September 1966 at New Delhi is laid on the Table of the House.

RECORD OF DISCUSSIONS HELD BETWEES COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF OF PAKISTAH ARMY

AND CHIEF OF THE ARMY STAFF, INDIA ON 13/14 SEPTEMBER 1966 AT NEW DELHI

1. It was agreed that any formations that may have moved forward should revert to their normal peace locations as soon as possible.

2. It was agreed that timing and place of any exercises at divisional lev?l or above to be carried out by either army would be intimated to the other side. Any exercises at brigade level or abo\'e to bs carried out by eith-r side in the S/ate of JAMMU and KASHMIR would be intimated to the other side through UNMOGIP. Holding of such exercises in the immediate vicinity of the border/Cease Fire Line will be avoided

3. Prior information in regard to the holding of blackout exercises in towns near to the border will also be ex-, changed.

4. In order to avoid any misunderstanding on either side it was agreed


to establish telephone/radio communications to facilitate contact between C-in-C PAKISTAN Army and Chief of the Army Staff INDIA.

5. In the State of JAMMU and KASHMIR the normal procedure of the Sector/Sub-sector Commanders meetings under the auspices of the UN to investigate and arrest a situation where necessary will continue to be fo lowed as already laid down.

9. Ii order to restore completely the pre-5 August line it was agreed that the £ lector/Sub-sector Commanders meetings in SIALKOT should re-start to resolve the problems in the same manm >r as it has been done in the past.

7. I; was agreed that picquets held by ei her country on the wrong side of the Cease Fire Line will be vacated on a verdict given by the UNMOGIP.

8. In EAST PAKISTAN the normal procedure of meetings between BSF/ EPR at approximate level will continue as and when necessary.

SAINIK SCHOOL IN J. & K.

♦51. DR. SHRIMATI PHULRENU GUHA: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether Government have any plan to set up a sainik school in the State of Jammu and Kashmir; and

(b) if so, when the school will start functioning?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) The sainik Schools are set up by the Sainik Schools Society on the State Government agreeing to provide the land and buildings and funds for the equipment of the schools, liberal scholarships to the students from their State and the school being self-supporting for its running expenditure. No request from the Govt, of J & K has been received in this respect.

(b) Does not arise. bs

COMMKRCIAL ADVERTISING OVER A.I.R.

♦52. SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: SHRI OM MEHTA:

Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) whether the recommendation made by the Chanda Committee to permit commercial advertisements on All India Radio has since been considered by Government; and

(b) if so, what is the decision taken thereon?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) and (b) The recom-mendation is still under consideration and Government's decision will be announced as early as possible.

*53. [Transferred to the 18th November, 1966].


tt'HOT-LINE'

•54. SHRI R. K. BHUWALKA: SHRI JAGAT NARAIN: SHRI N. SRI RAMA REDDY: SHRI SITARAM JAIPURIA: SHRI CHITTA BASU: SHRI D. L. SEN GUPTA: SHRI ARJUN ARORA:

Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the Chiefs of the Army Staff of India and Pakistan have agreed to a plan for establishing contact through a Hot-Line for lessening tension on the borders; and

(b) if so, by when this contact will be established?]

t[THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE

PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) and (b) In the agreement arrived at during the discussions between the C-in-C-designate, Pakistan Army and the Chief of the Army Staff India on the 13th/14th September 1966 at New Delhi, thrre is a provision for estab-lishing telephone or radio communications to facilitate contact between the C-in-C, Pakistan Army and the Chief of the Army Staff, India to avoid any mis-understanding on either side. The link is in existence.]

f[ ] English translation.

VIEWS OF INDIAN AMBASSADOR IN CAIRO ABOUT U.N.

•55. SHRI ARJUN ARORA: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether Government's attention has been drawn to an interview that the Indian Ambassador in Cairo gave to an Egyptian newspaper suggesting changes in the structure of the United Nations; and

(b) if so, whether the Ambassador was representing Government's views in the matter?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) The Ambassador merely referred to the existence of various proposals for the reorganisation of the United Nations. He did not advocate implementation of the proposals either in his personal capacity or on behalf of Government.

♦56. [Transferred, to the 17th November, 1966]

NEWSPAPER IN CHINESE LANGUAGE

*57. SHRI JAGAT NARAIN: Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) whether there is any newspaper in the Chinese Language being published in India;

(b) if so, the place from where it is being published; and

(c) what is its circulation?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BHADUR): (a) to (c) A daily news paper in the Chinese language is being published from Calcutta by Mr. Chang Chi Hua under the title 'Chinese Journal of Ind'a'. Its average circula-tion during 1965 was 755.


All India Radio brings out from New Delhi a quarterly Programme Schedule in Chinese for distribution abroad: its average circulation is 1500 copies per issue.

DISBANDING OF NATIONAL ORCHESTRA.

•58. SHRI NAND KISHORE BHATT: Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state;

(a) wh'ther there is any proposal to disband the National Orchestra of the All India Radio in the near future;

(b) if so, the reasons for taking such a step and the number of artistes who are likely to be affected thereby?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) No, Sir.

(b) Does not arise.

« GOVERNMENT STALL AT A.I.C C. PANDAL

*59. SHRI CHITTA BASU; Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) whether Government of India hired any s.all in the Exhibition at A.I.C C. Pandal at Ernakulam for Government publicity purposes; and

(b) if so, what is the amount spent for that purpose?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) The Ministry of Information and Broadcast;ng did not hire an'/ stall in the A.I.C C. Pandal at Ernakulam, and information is being collected if any other Ministry of the Government participated in the Exhibition.

lb) Does not arise.

OFFENSIVE SCRIPTS FOR THE VOICE 'OF KENYA

♦60. SHRIMATI LALITHA (RAJAGOPALAN): Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be plrased to state whether the Government of India brought to the notice of the Government of Kenya the offensive scripts written by Mrs. Mckinney, a British subject, for the Voice of Kenya and if so, what action has been taken by that Government in the matter?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI DINESH SINGH): Our High Commissioner in Nairobi protested to the Government of Kenya against the objectionable broadcasts on thn voice of Kenya, last August. The High Commissioner's protests appear to have had the desired effect. No such broadcasts have been reported aft:r August.

FILMS IN DIFFERENT LANGUAGES

27. SHRI JAIRAMDAS DAULATRAM; Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) the number of films produced so far in each of the languages included in the Eighth Sched^e to the Constitution; and

(b) the number of filim produced in the languages not included in the above Schedule?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) Film industry in India is in the private sector. It is not, therefore, possible to give dependable figures of films produced so far in the country- It is, however possible only to give the number of feature films certified for public exhibition by th? Central Board of Film Censors, since its inception in 1951. During the period 1951 to 1965, 4316 Indian frature films in the languages given in the Eighth Schedule to th-> Constitution were certified for public exhibition.


Their year-wise and language-wise break-up is given in the accompanying statement. [See Appendix LVIII, An-nexure No. 3A.]

(b) 33.

PUBLICATION OF AMRITA BAZAR PATRIKA FROM CUTTACK

28. SHRI BANKA BEHARY DAS: Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to ctate:

. (a) whether it is a fact that the Amrita Bazar Pa.rka of Cutta:k has applied for permission for publication of a separate edition or supplementary daily edition from Cuttack;

(b) if so, whether the Press Registrar has given permission for the same;

(c) whether it is also a fact that the newspapers organisations of Cuttack have objected to such permission; and

(d) if so, the reasons for such ob jection and the reaction of the Gov ernment of India in the matter?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) and (.b). M|s Amrita Bazar Patrika Private Limited, Calcutta, sougnt the permission of the Registrar of Newspapers for India, in September 1966, to print a portion of the paper at Cuttack in order to include the latest Oris:a news in the copies intended for distribution in the different parts of the State on the groand that there was a demand from readers in Orissa far a better coverage of Orissa news. In accordance with the provisions of the Press and Registration of Books Act. they were advised in SBptember 1966 that they could take the proposed step only if this ful-filled the requirements of the law and the rules o->. the subie-t and thry were cautioned that no additional cmota of newsprint would be made available to them for t^» portion of the paper printed at Cuttack.

(c) and (d). Yes, Sir, on the ground that tne publication of Amrita Bazai Patrika from Cuttack is not in con-' scnance with the Newsprint Allocation Policy, that the extension of chain newspapers from Calcutta to Orissa will affect the interests of the local papers and that it was necessary for Government to take suitable measures to curb the unbalanced developments in the Indian Press, having due regard to the Government'^ views on monopolistic trends in the industry.

Il has been stated in para. 12 of the Newsprint Allocation Policy as announced in Public Notice No. 54-ITC(PN) J66, dated the 26th Apri, 1966, that it will not be possible for Government to allocate newsprint quota to common ownership units for publication of new periodicals and newspapers. Government will not allocate any additional newsprint to the edition of the 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' from Cuttack and this has been made quite ciear to them.

However, it is not possible for Gov-ernment under any existing provisions of the law, to intervene in the matter. If is proposed to request the Press Council to study developments whih may tend towards monopoly or concentrations of ownership of newspapers and, to suggest remedies there'or.

SlKKIM LEVY ON INDIAN BUSINESS COMMUNITY'

29. SHRI A. D. MANI: Will the Mini:ter of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether a fee has been levied by the Government of Sikkim on the Tndian Business community and con tractors regarding transfer of profits; and

(b) if so, what are the details of this 1 new levy?


THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SlNGH): (a) There ha3 been no special levy in Sikkim on Indian business community ana contractors as such. However, by a notification dated the 26th August, lade, the Sikkim Government had imposed a general levy on transfer outside Sikkim of profits, capital gains, etc. The levy has been held in abeyance.

(b) The notification mentioned above had provided that transfers should be cleared by the Income and Sales Tax department of the Government of Sikkim to which applications were to be made on one-rupee stamped paper and one per cent of the amount transferred was to be deposited as fee.

TRANSMITTER AT SIMLA

30. SHRI A. D. MANI: SHRI D. THENGARI:

Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) whether a transmitter is going to be installed at Simla; and

(b) if so, what will be the region 'Which the transmitter would serve?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) It would cover the districts of Mahasu, Bilaspur, Nahan and parts of Mandi during day time due to hi ly terrain. However, at night time the service will extend much further up to Chamba, Kulu, Manali, Lahul, Spiti and the bordering areas towards China and Nepal. Under favourable conditions at night, it may rover considerable areas of Tibet and Nepal.

APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA

31. SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a; whether the question of apartheid in South Africa was discussed at any stage at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference held in September, 1966; and

ija) if so, the measures agreed upon at the Conference for ending the apartheid there.


(b) The Heads of Governments condemned the continued practice of apartheid by the Government of South Africa. They agreed to continue to bend their energies to bring this to an end.

CHINESE BROADCASTS TO INDIAN TROOPS

32. SHRI A. D. MANI: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be oleassd to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the Chinese broadcasting stations on the China-Sikkim border are continuing their broadcasts to Indian troops trying to undermine their discipline;

Cb) if so, what is the nature of the broadcasts that are now being made; md

(c) what counter steps Government are taking in respect of these broad casts?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) and (b). Yes, Sir. The Ciiinese trooos have been carrying out loudspeaker propaeanda in attemots to undermine the morale and disc'oline of the Indian troops by broadcasting ficlitious stori°s about conditions in India. The ro^etion of Tndten soldiers has "heen con+pmnt at these crude attempts to mislead them.

(c) Suitable coubter propaganda measures intended at keeping the morale of our soldiers hidi and refuting the more violent Chinese allegations have been made.


t [RETRENCHMENT OF THE EMPLOYEES OF DEFENCE ESTABLISHMENTS'

33. SHRI D. THENGARI: SHRI SUNDAR SINGH BHANDARI:


(a) whether it is a fact that employees in various Defence Establishments in the country are being retrenched;

(b) if so, what is the number of such persons who have been retrenched during the last six months;

(c) what are the reasons for this retrenchment; and

(d) what action has been taken by Government to provide alternative employment to them?]

f[ THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRl A. M. THOMAS): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) The information is being collected and will be placed on the Table of the House.

(c) Retrenrhment has been effected for various reasons, such as replacement of civilians (recruited temporarily) by trained Combatants on the latter becoming availab e, closure of certain Depots, completion of specific jobs, reduction in establishment as a result of review, reduction in the strength of 'Followers', change in the poliry renting to repair of equipment and vehicles and slowin? down of certain production schedules.

(d) Every possible effort hns been, made (and is being made), within the notice period, to provide the surplus

t [ ] English translation.

289 Written Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 290 emp'oyees with some a'ternative appointment, in equivalent or lower po-ts, in, accordance with the Scheme of adjustment of surpluses and deficiencies. Only those for whom such appointments cannot be found and those who do not accept such appointments, are retrenched on the expiiy of no'dce period.]

t [FRENCH LOAN FOR ATOMIC POWER PLANT

34. SHRI D. THENGARI: SHRI SUNDAR SINGH

BHANDARI: SHRI CHITTA BASU: SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: SHRI D. L. SEN GUPTA:

Will the PRIME MINISTER be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that French Government have not agreed to give lo3n for establishing an atomic power

plant in Madras; if so, what are the reasons therefor; ana

(b) whether it is a fact that recently the Prime Minister had talks with President De Gaulle in this connection; if SD, whether any assurance was-given by the President.]

f[THE PRIME MINISTER AND MINISTER OF ATOMIC ENERGY (SHRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI): (a) As already stated in the House in reply to Unstarred Question No. 755 on. August 23, 1956, exploratory talks with the Government oi France indicate that a special loan for the Madras Atomic Power Project is not likely to materialise.

(b) No, Sir.]

PASSPORTS

35. SHRI A. D. MANT: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to stale what are the liberalized rules regarding issue of passports?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL. AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): The main features of -the liberalised rules are as follows:

Firstly, the procedure for applying for passport has been simplified and causes of delay in the issue of passport have been eliminated as far as possible.

f [ ] English translation.


Secondly, formalities which took con-siderable time and caused inconvenience to applicants have been greatly reduced and kept 'to the minimum.

Procedural Simplification.— (a) According to the previous procedure, applicants residing outside the cities of Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi Lucknow and Madras were required to apply to the District Magistrate and submit the ori-ginal copy of applications to him1. The applications were first processed in the offices of the District Magistrates and thereafter sent "to the Regional Passport Officers for further action. This resulted in delay. The procedure has, therefore, been, reversed under the liberalized rules, the original copy of the application is to be j>ent to -the Regional Passport Officer direct and the latter will immediately take steps and whenever necessary consult the District Magistrate.

(b) If an applicant is in a hurry and wants a passport quickly, he may be given one within 48 hour,? provided the passport officer is satisfied about the bona fides and provided the applicant is in a position to furnish a certificate from a first-class Magistrate or a senior Government Officer of and above the rank of Deputy Secretary to the effect that the applicant is a fit and proper person to hold a passport.

(c) Even if an applicant cannot furnish a certificate from an officer of the status mentioned above but furnishes a sworn affidavit or a certificate from an officer of the status of Under Secretary to the effect that the particulars furnished by him in the application are correct, efforts will be made to give him a passport as soon as possible wi-lhin a few weeks.

Abolition of Avoidable Formalities— (a) An applicant for a passport will no longer be required to furnish sponsorship declaration, entry certificate, medical certificate, etc.. to prove the bona fides of his visit abroad.

(b) An applicant will also not be required to furnish a Financial Guarantee to recover expenses regarding his

repatriation, etc., if he pays income tax or is proceeding abroad on scholarship or holds a return ticket or is proceeding to the neighbouring countries for pilgrimage.

Conclusion.—The effect of the aforesaid liberalisationlsimplification is that a bona fide applicant will get a passport quickly without having to undergo formalities which might cause undue delay.

FACILITIES TO THE EMPLOYEES OF H.A.L. (KANPUR)

36. SHRI NIREN GHOSH; Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the em ployees of the H.A.L. (Kapur Divi sion) are not provided with transport, medical and housing facilities;

(b) whether the employees have drawn the attention of the Govern ment to their grievances; and

(c) if so, the steps taken by Govern ment to ameliorate these grievances?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M THOMAS): (a) No, Sir. H.A.L. (Kanpur) run some transport buses. They have implemented the E.S.I. Scheme regarding medical facilities. They have also obtained 283 quarters from the Government of UP. for their workers.

(b) and (c) Yes, Sir. The provision of thes? amenities is the responsibility of the Company, who have under their consideration som© proposals to add further to the existing amenities e.g. negotiations have been under-taken with UP. Roadways to run subsidised services and with the Government of UP. for the construction of more State subsidised residential accommodation near the factory.

293 [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 294

PISTON ENGINE FOR LIG T AIRCRAFT

37. SH*I BABUBHAI M- CHINAI: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the Hindustan Aeronauiirs Ltd, has developed a piston engine suitable for light aircraft; and

(b) if so, the details thereof?

THE M LISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) Yes, Sir

(b) It is a four cylinder, four stroke, air-cooled, horizentally opposed tjpe piston engine suitable for light aircraft. Its power at 'maximum take off' is 84 HP at 2600 RPM (full throttle), and at 'maximum continuous', it is 64 HP at 2450 RPM.

INDO-PAKISTAN RELATIONS

38. SARDAR RAM STNGH: SHRl M. M. DHARIA: SHRI N SRI RAMA REDDY: SHRl G. MURAHARI:


(a) whether he had any exploratory meetings with the Pakistan Foreign Minister in London and New York to improve relations between the two countries; and

(b) if so, the nature of the discussions held?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) and (b) No formal meetings were held either in London or in N^w York between the Pakistan Foreign Minister and mysel(\ We met on a number of occasions, including a dinner given by me to him in London an~I a dinner party in New Yo'-k to which he had invited me. We talked generally about Indo-Pak relations on these occasions.

RETURN OF SABRE JETS TO IRAN BY PAKISTAN

39. SARDAR RAM SINGH: DIWAN CHAMAN LALL;


(a) whether Government have received any confirmation from the Government of West Germany that Iran has taken back all the Sabre jets which they had sent to Pakistan; and

(b) if not, the number of jets which Pakistan have so far returned to Iran?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) and (b) We have been informed by the West German Government that except for a few aircraft still under servicing in Pakstan, all the F-86 aircraft that they had sold to Iran for its use have already been brought back to Iran. We have bean further advised that the few still under servicing will also return to Iran; and this matter, too, is being kept in view.

RHODESIA

40. SHRI S. SUPAKAR: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether any effective sanction against the illegal Smith regime m Rhodesia is being imposed after the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference held in London in September, 1966; and

(b) what other steps to establish popular Government in Rhodesia are-proposed to be taken?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFATRS (SARDAR SWARAN STNGH): (al At the Commonwealth Prime Mmisters' Conference it was notel that the British Government would try to bring the rebellion in

295 vfrinen Answers [ 8 NOV. 1966 J to yuestions 296

Rhodesia to an end before the end of the year, failing which they would withdraw all previous proposals lor a constitutional settlement and will oe prepared to join in sponsoring in the Security Council of the United Nations a resolution providing for effective and selective mandatory economic sanctions against Rhodesia.

(b) The U.N. also has be en pressing the U.K. Government to lead tne territory to independence. In a resolution passed on the 22nd October. 1966, the General Assembly has condemned "any agreement reached bet-ween the Administering Power (U.K) and the illegal racist minority regms which will not recognise the inalienable rights of the people of Zimbabwe to self-determination and inde;5en-dence in accordance with General Assembly Resolution 1514 (xv)". The resolution also noted "with brave concern that 'talks about talks' further jeopardized the inalienab'e rights of the people of Zimbabwe" and reaffirmed the obligation of the Administering Power to transfer power ;n thaT terrtory on the basis of universal adult suffrage.

TRAINING OF WOMEN AS PILOTS

41. DR. SHRIMATI PHULRENU GUHA: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that women are being trained to work as pilots in the Air Force; and

(b) if so, where they are being trained and what is the number of the trained women pilots?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) No, Sir.

(b) Do^n, not arise.

52. [Tr. to the 18th Nov- ember, 1966.]

t [EXPENDITURE ON INDIAN MISSIONS

43. SHRl JAGAT NARAIN: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state the expenditure incurred on each Indian Mission during the year 1965?]

t[THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL.

AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): A statement giving the expenditure incurred on the Indian Missions under the administrative and budgetary control of the Ministry of External Affairs during 1965-66 33 laid on the Table of the House. [See Appendix LVIII, Annexure No. 4.]

JUDUGUDA MINES

44. SHRI N. R. M. SWAMY: Will the PRIME MINISTER be pleased to state:

(a) whether there was a proposal to hand over the management of the Juduguda Mines to M/s. Dastur and Company; and

(b) if so, the reasons for which the proposal was shelved?

THE PRIME MINISTER AND MINI-STER OF ATOMIC ENERGY (SHRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI): (a) No, Sir.

(b) Does not arise.

JUDUGUDA MINES

45. SHRI N. R. M. SWAMY: Will the PRIME MINISTER be pleased to state:

f [ ] English translation.


(a) whether it isa fact that the senior officials ofthe Atomic Energy Departmentdo not go to supervise the workingof the Judu- guda Mines in South Bihar;

(b) whether it is alsoa fact that the workers do not putin 8 hours' work and most of themgo to sleep after a couple of hours' work; and

(c) whether there is any official record prescribed, such as, weekly or fortnightly diaries which are sub mitted to higher officials?

. THE PRIME MINISTER AND MINISTER OF ATOMIC ENERGY (SHRIMATi iNDIRA GANDHI): (a) No, Sir.

(b) No, Sir.

(c) The requirements of maintain ing records and diaries and their exa mination by higher officials as laid down in the Regulations made under the Mines Act are complied with.

ELECTRONIC INSTRUMENTS FACTORY

46. SHRI M C. SHAH: Will the PRIME MINISTER be pleased to state whether any final decision has been taken by the Atomic Energy Commission for the location of the electronic instruments factory and if so, wha"; ?

THE PR ME MINISTER AND MINISTER OF ATOMIC ENERGY (SHRIMATI INDIRA GANDHI): As stated to reply to Unstarred Question No. 756, answered in the House on August 23, 1966, the site selected for the electronic ins.rumen-Is factory is near Hyderabad.

TAX REMISSION TO FILMS

47. SHR' N. SRI RAMA REDDY: Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be p'eased to state whether it is a fact that Gov ernment have asked vhe Central Board of Film Censors to send proposals recommending tax remission for films of high aesthetic and artistic merit?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRl RAJ BAHADUR): The Government is considering a proposal for remission of taxes in respect of purposeful filni3 with sccial and national content and high artistic va'ue. Final selection c,f such films will be made by a Committee consisting of emient persona or. -uie basis of recommenda'.ions made by the Central Board of Film Cen»rs with regard to films which would qualify for tax exemptions. The details of the scheme are being worked out.

INCREASE IN THE PAY-SCALES OF STAFF ARTISTES

48 SHRT P. K. KUMARAN: Will the Minis er of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) whether any representation has been received by Government to increase the pay scales of Steff Artistes and Indian Language announcers working in the different broadcasting centres; and

(b) if so, what is the reaction of the Government thereto?

THE MINISTER OF NFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) The question of revising the fee scales applicable to announcers in A.I.R. is under consideration.

INDO-PAK BORDER

49. SHR! CHITTA BASU: Will the Minis 'er of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the de-marcation of Indo-Pak border still remains incomplete; and

(b) if so, the reasons therefor?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL. AFFATRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) Some of the main reasons are that in case of certain sectors of the


border legal impediments have arisen and in other cases the Governments of India and Pakistan are in correspondence regarding the procedure to be adopted for demarcation. Demarcation entails considerable preliminary work including meetings between the Sur-veyors and field work and settling of sundry technical formalities all of which take time.

FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO ARTISTES

50. SHRI M. C. SHAH: Will the Minister of INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that Govern ment have approved any scheme of financial assistance to musicians, dan- ceTs and dramatists who have contri buted to the success of A.I.R. and other media units; and

(b) if so; the main details thereof?

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): (a) and (b) Yes, Sir. A copy of the scheme is laid on the Table of the Sabha . [See Appendix LVIII, Annexure No. 5.]

CHINESE INTRUSIONS INTO INDIA

51. DIWAN CHAMAN LALL: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to state:

(a) what is the exact position relating to intrusions by China into India; and

(b) what area of our territory is at present under illegal possession of China and what is its location?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRO-DUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) Occasional minor, temporary intrusions by the Chinese into Indian and Sikkimese territory still come to notice. A statement showing the Chinese intrusions into Indian and Sikkmises territory since 9th September 1966 is attached.

(b) About 14,500 sq. miles in Ladakh and a little over 2000 sq. miles in that part of Jammu and Kashmir earlier illegally occupied by Pakistan and subsequently ceded by the latter to China under the so-called Sino-Pak. Border Agreement.

1290 RSD—3.


INDIAN HIGH COMMISSIONERS AND

AMBASSADORS

52. SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether the Indian High Com-missioners and Ambassadors are expected to be in touch with Indians living in the countries where they are posted; and

(b) whether there is any time limit for the tenure of the Indian Ambassadors and High Commissioners?


(b) The tenure of the Heads of our Missions overseas depends on public interest.

CHINA'S ATTITUDE TOWARDS INDIA

53. SHRi M. RUTHNASWAMY: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state the ■number of reports from our Embassy in China received during 1964—66 on


the attitude of the People's Republic of China towards India after the Indo-Pak conflict in 1962?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): Our Embassy in China has kept the Government fully informed of the attitude of the Chinese Government towards India through telegrams, letters and despatches as well as detailed reports based on conversations with the Chinese Foreign Office. These are so numerous that it would not be possible to compile an exhaustive list without expending considerable time and effort.

CHINESE INTRUSIONS INTO LONGJU

54. DR. (MRS.) MAGLADEVI TALWAR: SHRI JAGAT

NARAIN: SHRI UTTAM SINGH DUGAL:


(a) whether it is a fact that the Chinese made intrusions into Longju area recently; and

(b) if so, the action taken by Government in the matter?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRO-DUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) A Chinese patrol intruded across, the border in the Eastern Sector into the Alubari area about a mile south of Longju on 19th May 1966 and returned the same day. Since then no further intrusion in the Longju area has come to light.

(b) Does not arise.

CHINESE PROPAGANDA IN NEFA

55. DR. (MRS.) MANGLADEVI TALWAR: Will the Minister of EX TERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether Government are aware that the Chinese have stepped up •

ideological propaganda through pamphlet in certain areas of N.E.F.A. and

(b) if so, the action Government have taken in the matter?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) The Chinese are carrying on ideological propaganda in NEFA. Reports have come in of some pamphlets being distributed but these are not ideological in contentl being addressed mainly to the Tibetan refugees.

(b) Suitable counter publicity is given through All India Radio, Gau-hati. A second station at Pasighat is already functioning and more radio stations are being installed to meet specific needs of different Divisions of NEFA. 9 field publicity units have also been set up which give the people information about different parts of India, the progress of economic reconstruction in the country and the role of the people in the development of NEFA with a view to promoting national in-tegration. Pamphlets including a monthly bulletin are also distributed and explained by village level workers. These give factual information about conditions in NEFA and the rest of the country to counter subversive propaganda.

56. [Transferred to the 16th. Novem ber. 1966.]

PAKISTAN CONCENTRATION

57. SHRI SURJIT SINGH ATWAL: SHRI N. R. M. SWAMY:


(a) whether it is a fact that Pakistan has, during the last month, amassed troops and armour on the borders adjoining the States of Punjab, Rajasthan, West Bengal, Jammu and Kashmir; and


(b) if so, the reaction of Government thereto?

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRO-DUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): (a) Not during the last month.

(b) Does not arise.

JOURNALS IN INDIAN MISSION ABROAD

58. SHRI G. MURAHARI: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the Ministry of External Affairs make bulk purchases of certain journals for distribution to the Indian Missions abroad; and

(b) if so, the names of the journals and the number of copies of each of the journals so subscribed?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH); (a) Yes, Sir, sometimes, if by bulk fifty or more copies are meant.

(b) A list is attached.

LIST OF NEWSPAPERS AND PERIODICALS SUPPLIED TO INDIAN MISSIONS ABROAD OF

WHICH 50 OR MORE COPIES ARE PURCHASED

307 Re a point [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] of privilege 308

tITHE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) Dr. Dharam Teja is required In India to face trial in a Court of Law for certain offences alleged to have been committed by him.

RE A POINT OF PRIVILEGE

t [CANCELLATION OF PASSPORT OF DRI

DHARAM TEJA

59. SHRI JAGANNATH PRASAD PAHADIA: Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether it is a fact that the passport of Dr. Dharam Teja, the former Chaifman of the Jayanti Shipping Corporation, has been can celled; and

(b) if soj what is the reason there for?

SHRI BABUBHAI M. CHINAI (Maharashtra): We do not know what is the subject-matter of the point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have allowed him. The subject matter is becoming evident.

309 Re a point [ RAJYA SABHA ] of privilege 310

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): This is a matter for you to consider. The Prime Minister has not become a 'Toofan'. When he was coming he was obstructed and asked to get away because the Prime Minister was coming. I have never experienced such a thing and I do not think anybody has experienced that. This is a

serious matter. About carrying of files I do not refer. Who is 'the person that indulged in this? The hon. Member has made a charge and we should know who that person is. I think this statement should go before the Privileges Committee and an investigation should be ordered and the person should be brought to book. If-he had done it, he should be made to apologise.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am quite sure that the Prime Minister has nothing to do with it. I am sure it will not happen in the future.

DR. GOPAL SINGH (Nominated): This is not a matter that should be raised on the floor of the House. It is too small a matter to be raised on the floor of the House. The hon. gentleman has raised the matter of privilege on a very trivial issue and I do not think any Member has had this experience of being prevented from moving about when the Prime Minister is coming from this side or that side.' If no other person has had this experience, I do not think the hon. Member should be allowed to make it an issue.

311 Re a point [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] of privilege 312

(Interruptions)

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Mr. Chairman, here it is not an issue between us and the Prime Minister. All that I say isf I am sure the Prime Minister will not ask for this to be done. Therefore do not try to blame the Prime Minister.

SHRI G. MURAHARI (Uttar Pradesh) : She is not a super-woman.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Nobody is a superman or super-woman. Only Super Market we want. The hon. Members should bear with us. Here it is not a party issue. Here is a Member who gets up and makes a submission to the Chair that he had been prevented.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have understood the matter. Mr. Rajnarain has explained 'the matter fully. It is not important enough to be discussed here. I will look into it.

SHRI K. K. SHAH (Maharashtra): Yesterday I asked . . .

SHRI G; MURAHARI: The Prime Minister is sitting here . . .

SHRI K. K. SHAH: I raised the question of privilege of a Member yesterday. What was his reaction • then?

SHRI G. MURAHARI: The Prime Minister is in the House and if something has happened without her knowledge she can get up and apologise.

HON. MEMBERS: No, no.

MR. CHAIRMN: I am quite sure that it is without the Prime Minister's knowledge but since Member has been prevented from moving about, I will look into the matter and see that such a thing does not happen. That is the end of it.

313 Re a point [ RAJYA SABHA ] 0/ privilege 314

SHRI K. K. SHAH: Do not threaten us.

(Interruptions).

SHRI RAJNARAIN: I shall also raise my voice.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Will you sit down Mr. Rajnarain? I have asked him to sit down. Mr. Murahari, please down. Do not raise this point.

SHRI G. MURAHARI; I am rising on 'a point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You are disobeying me.

SHRI G. MURAHARI: I am sitting down, but I want to raise a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN; On what?

SHRI G. MURAHARI: The point of order is that on several occasions in this House some opposition Members were being expelled, suspended and removed from this House for so-called disorderly behaviour, but today we have witnessed the most disgraceful behaviour from a senior Member of Parliament. As such I would like to know whether similar action would be taken against him or not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is my discretion, I will see. If it is necessary, I will not hesitate to do so as I will not hesitate in the case of others.

SHRI ARJUN ARORA (Uttar Pradesh) : On a point of order. I want to refer to rule 188 . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no matter before us. I have decided and I have said that I will look into the matter, and i am sure the Prime Minister did not want it. Anyhow I will look into the matter and see that people are not obstructed. That is the end of it.

SHRjI BHUPESH GUPTA: You look into it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have said I will do it.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: We want to know what happened.

STATEMENT RE STARRED QUES-TION NO. 589 ANSWERED ON THE

23RD AUGUST, 1966

UNTRACED ARMED PERSONNEL

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (SHRI A. M. THOMAS): Sir, I rise to make a statement correcting the reply I gave to a supplementary question arising out of Starred Question No. 589 on the 23rd August, 1966.

In the course of the supplementaries which arose out of Starred Questioit No. 589, answered in this House on the 23rd August, 1966 regarding members of 'the Armed Forces who were engaged in the recent conflict with Pakistan and who were still untraced, Shri Sitaram Jaipuria asked a question in which he desired to know whether any compensation had been paid to the families of such missing persons I replied as follows: —

"There are prescribed conditions-regarding the grant of family pensions, etc. For six months they are paid regular salaries to which they are entitled."

The above reply gives an erroneous impression that the families of the

315 Papers laid [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] on the Table 316'

Armed Forces Officers and personnel, who became missing while engaged in the recent operations against Pakistan, are given the normal pay and allowances of the persons concerned, in full, for a period of six months. I would therefore like the reply to be corrected as follows: —

"There are prescribed conditions regarding grant of family pensions, etc. For a period of six months, provided that death is not established or prrsumed earlier, the families of the missing persons are paid a proportion of their salaries as allowances. This payment is at the enhanced rate of two-thirds of pay in the case of married officers and in the case of ajl personnel below officer rank. The dependants of unmarried officers get the allowance at the normal rate and the conditions are laid down in the Pension Regulations. Details are given in paras. 10 to 14 of the pamphlet on 'Pensionary and other benefits ad-missible to (1) families of Defence Services personnel killed or reported missing in operations, and (2) Defence Services personnel disabled and invalided out as a result of injuries sustained in operations', copies of which were sent to all Members of Parliament early this year."

CALLING ATTENTION TO A MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

DEMAND FOR STEEL PLANT AT VlSAKHAPATNAM j

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN (Andhra Pradesh): With your permission, Sir, I call the attention of the Minister of Iron and Steel to the demand for the location of a steel plant at Visakha-patnam.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF IRON AND STEEL (SHRI P. C. SETHI): Sir, this is an

important statement to be made and I submit that it is better made by the Minister himself who is shortly arriving by plane. If you don't mind, Sir, you may kindly allot some time in the afternoon. As I said, it would be-better if the statement is made by him.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I will dc it. At 4-30. He could not get a seat in the earlier plane.

PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE

ANNUAL REPORT AND ACCOUNTS (1964-65) OF THE INDIAN STATISTICAL INSTITUTE,

CALCUTTA

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (SHRI M. C. CHAGLA): Sir, on behalf of the Prime Minister I beg tc lay on the Table a copy of the Thirty-third Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian Statistical Institute, Calcutta, for he year 1964-65. together with the Auditors' Report on the Accounts. [Placed in Library. See No. LT-7224/66.]

NOTE OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTRY, .NEW DELHI TO EMBASSY OF CHINA IN INDIA

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SARDAR SWARAN SINGH): Sir, I beg to lay on the Table a copy of the Note given by the Ministry of External Affairs, New Delhi, to the Embassy of China in India, on the 4th November, 1966. [Placed in Library. See No. LT-7235/66.]

PAPERS UNDER THE COMPANIES ACT,. 1956

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI RAJ BAHADUR): Sir, I beg to lay on the Table a copy each of the following papers under sub-section:

317 Motion re widespread [ RAJYA SABHA ] unrest among students 318

(1) of section 619-A of the Companies Act, 1956: —

(i) Fourth Annual Report and Accounts of the Film Finance Corporation Limited, Bombay, for the year 1963-64, together with the Auditors' Report on the Accounts. [Placed in Library. See No. LT-7225/ 66.]

<(ii) Fifth Annual Report and Accounts of the Film Finance Corporation Limited, Bombay, for the year 1964-65, together with the Auditors' Report on the Accounts.

, (hi) Review by Government on the working of the Corporation for the period April, 1963 to March, 1965.

[Placed in Library. See No. LT-7226/66 for (ii) and (hi).]

^STATEMENT GIVING REASONS FOR DELAY IN LAYING ANNUAL REPORT (1963-64) OF THE FILM FINANCE CORPORATION LIMITED, BOMBAY

SHRl RAJ BAHADUR: Sir, I also bsg to lay on the Table a statement giving the reasons for the delay in the laying the Annual Report of the Film Finance Corporation Limited, Bombay, for the year 1963-64. [Placed in Library. See No. LT-7225/ 66.]

ANNUAL REPORT (1965-66) OF THE ALL INDIA INSTITUTE OF MEDICAL SCIENCES,

NEW DELHI

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND FAMILY PLANNING (DR. SUSHILA NAYAR); Sir, I beg to lay on the Table, under Section 19 of the AD India Institute of Medical Sciences Act, 1956, a copy of the Tenth Annual Report of the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, New Delhi, for the year 1965-66. [Placed in Library. See No. LT-7191/66.]

NOTIFICATIONS OF THE ELECTION COMMISSION

SHRI RAJ BAHADUR: Sir, on behalf of Shri C. R. Pattabi Raman

I beg to lay on the Table a copy each of the following Notifications of the Election Commission: —

(i) Notification S. O. No. 2213, dated the 16th July, 1966, publishing Order No. 6A, making certain corrections in the Delimitation Commission's Order No. 6 dated the 26th March, 1966, relating to the State of Gujarat.

(ii) Notification S.O. No. 2457, dated the 10th August, 1966, publishing Order No. 6B, making certain corrections in the Delimitation Commission's Order No. 6, dated the 26th March, 1956, relating to the State of Gujarat.

[Placed in Library. See No . LT-7240/66 for (i) and ( i i ) . ]

MOTION RE WIDESPREAD UNREST AMONG STUDENTS

"That the situation 'arising out of the

recent widespread unrest among students in the country be taken into consideration."

319 Motion re widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among students 320

"I have basic faith in the patriotism, idealism and dynamism of the youth."

325 Motion re widespread [ RAJYA SABHA J unrest among students 326

327 Motion re widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among students' 328

"Bansi Kumari Bhat becomes Shamima

Banu Horrible consequences of Kashmir Admissions Policy. Eleven students of Anantnag in Kashmir—Roop Krishan Raina, Piaray Lal Koul, Kanya Lal Raina, Bansi Kumari Bhat, Oma Shri, Roop Lata Zutshi, Piaray Lal Thaploo, Mohan Lal Thaploo, Chaman Lal Koul, Roshan Lal Koul and Ashok Kumar Pandit—have embraced Islam."

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: Which' paper?

SHRI V. M. CHORDIA: "Organiser"'

"Last year Government admitted

students with 37% to 45% marks in preference to those who had secured 55% marks or above. This preference was shown to Muslim children and VIP children. Many students appealed to the High Court, and the State Government had to cut a very sorry figure."


The question was proposed.

SHRI G. MURAHARI (Uttar Pradesh): Sir, I move:

1. "That at the end of the motion the following be added, namely: —

'and having considered the same, this House is of opinion that the following measures should be taken by Government to meet the students' problems: —

(i) compulsory and free education should be provided up to the Intermediate standard;

(ii) "fancy" schools should be abolished and uniform type of schools should be provided for all;

(iii) restrictions on admission to colleges and universities should be abolished;

(iv) education should be imparted only through the medium

333 motion re widespread [ RAJYA SABHA ] unrest among students 334

[Shri G. Murahari.] of the mother-tongue or regional language;

(v) students' unions with compulsory membership should be established;

(vi) free education up to the highest standard should be provided for the students who are socially and economically backward;

(vii) ex-Government servants and ex-Ministers should not be appointed as Vice-Chancellors and Principals;

(viii) arrangements should be made for low-cost hostels and cheap meals for the children of those persons whose monthly income is less than three hundred rupees and Government subsidy should be given for this purpose;

(ix) no restriction should be placed on political parties starting youth organisations in the universities or colleges and on the students for participating in them;

(x) arrangements should be made for providing jobs according to the aptitudes and qualifications of the students who have completed their University, College or school edu-cation;

(xi) entry of the police into temples of learning should be altogether banned;

(xii) the principle of "equal remuneration for equal service" should be immediately implemented in all government and non-government educational institutions;

(xiii) the teachers should ordinarily have the right to participate in the politics of their choice;

(xiv) the State Governments should spend 20 per cent of their budgets and the Central , Government 10 per cent of its budget on education under any circumstance;

(xv) inaugural and convocation address by Ministers and government servants in the temples of learning should be strictly banned;

(xvi) special emphasis should be laid on technical education;

(xvii) an impartial judicial enquiry at the highest level should be conducted at places where firing has been resorted to in connection with the students' agitations and the officers in charge of the administration of those places should be immediately transferred;

(xviii) all the persons arrested in connection With the agitation should be released unconditionally and the cases filed and warrants issued against the student leaders should be withdrawn;"

(The amendment also stood in the name of Shri Rajnarain)

SHRI BANKA BEHARI DAS (Orissa): Sir, I move:

2. "That at the end of the motion the following be added, namely:—

'and having considered the same, this House is of opinion that a high-powered Inquiry Commission, consisting of Members of Parliament, Educationists and other eminent men under the Chairmanship of a Judge of the Supreme Court be set up to inquire into the causes of the widespread student unrest in the country'."

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE (West Bengal): Sir, I move:

335 Motion re widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among studentst 336

3. "That at the end of the motion the following be added, namely:—

'and having considered the same, this House is of opinion that a permanent negotiating machinery should be set up at the Union Government level to look into the grievances of students and to serve as a means of dialogue between the representatives of students and the Government'."

The questions were proposed.

SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN (Maharashtra): Mr. Chairman, before I make my observations on the Subject-matter of this motion, permit me to thank you, Sir for giving precedence to this motion. It shows the importance that the question of student unrest has come to assume in recent days and in our present day life. It is but natural that it should be so. Everyone of us—the parent, the teacher, the educationist, the administrator, the social and political worker —has a feeling of anxiety in each one's mind and we are pondering as to why the student of today is so uneasy and angry. Students are but hopes of tomorrow. They are the makers of democracy and the nation. They are the preservers of all the ideals that we have struggled for. And if it is found that this community is amenable or has been amenable to an anarchist way of thinking, a trend which will blast the very foundations of our democratic social fabric, where is the hope? Is it not a red signal for all of us? We have, therefore, to pause, analyse and find out real measures which will try to remove this unrest.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair]

The student community and the unrest in them is also a delicate question. The community, let it be understood, has both the potentialities. It catches Are like a dry stack of grass under certain conditions, but it really can be an atomic power plant

useful for the healthy growth of the community as a whole. So, I expect and wish that the debate on this motion be an objective and dispassionate one. The views expressed here by Members may be critical, but there should be constructive suggestions also. Let it be noted that if we do not act jointly now, the present trends will not only mean the end of law and order and peaceful conditions of growth, but will also mean an end of what even the Opposition stands for. The problem has, therefore, to be analysed firstly from the point of view of the immediate present, viz., what exactly happened during the last one or two months and, secondly, from the point of view of long-range solutions, namely, the deeper reasons behind the outbursts. I shall, first of all, give my observations about the immediate present. It is true that there have been cases of student indiscipline in the past, but they have not been so widespread and violent. What made the students almost in three or four States so angry? What were the kinds of grievances, what were the methods used? All these need to be examined and a co-ordinated picture formed. What does the factual analysis of the events that took place over the months of September and October point to? Madam) before I give out my analysis let me point out that I have prepared detailed statement of these events from the reports which have appeared in papers like the "Times of India." I have tried to read minutely the reports about all these incidents of student unrest. I am convinced that a clear picture, a clear impression can be formed only if a co-ordinated view of the events is taken. I have tried that and I am submitting in brief my observations thereon. In noting and reading these reports there might have been some mistake or omiss,ion. But this error will be the order of three per cent and not more.

Now coming to the factual analysis of what happened during the last two months, let me put it in a summary form, in brief. The analysis covers


[Shri S. K. Vaishampayen:] incidents over a period of one and a half months.

September was a month of student unrest in Madhya Pradesh. October was a month of student trouble in UP. and Bihar and partly in West Bengal.

In September there were altogether 48 disturbances at 40 places. Out of these only 4 disturbances had some relation with academic matters, and there were 8 other disturbances which were of a non-academic character and which were also on paltry issues.

In the first fortnight of October there were 27 disturbances at 26 places, two of the disturbances alone having some bearing on academic issues, whereas 5 disturbances were such which were non-academic and having a bearing on paltry issues.

Coming to the academic issues that were involved, what were they? In Delhi there was a demand for the abolition of the Bar Council examination. In Warangal there was a de-mand for the transfer of a lecturer. In Kozikode there was a demand for better hostel facilities and reduction of fees.

In Bombay there was that incident about a girl's mouth having been sealed with a sticking plaster by her teacher. At Lucknow there were demands of the Ayurvedic College students, but. these demands had really no support among the student community. In Jammu there was the students' fast, in the Agricultural College.

Coming to the other non-academic and paltry issues, let me enumerate them in brief before you.

In Bhopal there was a scuffle with the S.T. officers. In Srinagar the students protested and demonstrated because the police detained a lecturer, for interrogation in a sabotage case. In Sibpur, in Calcutta,-there -was a scuffle

between students and people which took place about four days earlier. In Jaipur some articles appeared in a local paper about mismanagement of a local hospital, and therefore the students of the Medical College struck work and demonstrated and protested and there was a disturbance.

In Rohtak there was a protest againsi 'he arrest of a Jan Sangh M.L.A. In Bankura there was a hartal by the United Leftist Front and the students joined that. In Jammu there was a clash with a Minister's son and therefore the students went on a strike and protested. In Jabbalpur there was a clash with some people.

In Samastipur in Bihar, there was a figW wi'h a cobbler for charges about boot polishing. In Sahasra the students wanted to break the C.M.'s meeting. In Calcutta there was a clash between the N.C.C. noys and the transport au-thoiities. in Kasargode there was an agitation abou; the appointment of a Commission for deciding the boundary question. In Trivandrum there was a demand from the students that the pay scales of engineers of the Electricity Board should be improved.

Taking these non-academic and academic issues that were involved, we should try to deduct these from the total number of incidents that took place, and we will find that 56 disturbances that were there in the month of September and the fortnight of October were the result of the incidents t.-hicii took place at Indore and Gwa-lior and later on at Lucknow. All the rest of the disturbances which took place at other places were merely a soil of cha* reaction to the incidents that took place at Indore and Gwalior and at Lucknow. So far as these are concerned, it is also very important that we should try to know what exactly happened at Indore. At Indore a daily published a news about a scuffle between two student groups and alleged that the students of the Vaishnav College had attacked the other students with a pen-knife. The students became angry and they demanded a contradiction from the

339 Motion re widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among students/ 340

editor. The contradiction was not given and therefore the students went and raided that particular press and attacked the editor and therefore the situation became violent. This was the whole incident and as a result of this Sec. 144 had to be promulgated by the district authorities. This news reached Gwalior and tnere also the whole atmosphere became tense and therefore the authorities feared that there would be some trouble and they promulgated Sec. 144. Later on the students went on defying the ban that was imposed. There were clashes, pitched battles, in Indore and Gwalior, and then later on whatever happened in other places was a sort of chain reaction to these particular incidents. Whatever incidents had taken place in U.P., the demand of the students is that the police excesses that were committed in Madhya Pradesh should be enquired into. The 36 disturbances that took place over a period of 1-1J2 months in three or four different States were the result of what happened at Indore and Gwalior. This is what made the students angry. Some of the features of these disturbances were almost of a particular pattern namely, that the processions were taken out in defiance of Sec. 144 that was promulgated or in defiance of the curfew that was there; the processionists made police vans and police chowkis their targets— that was one very significant feature o'f all these 56 disturbances which must be taken note of. Another feature of these demonstrations is there was damage to railway property, tele-phone property and other things. Here I must submit that at the three places, namely, Indore, Jaipur and Gwalior, the press there was attacked, the editors were attacked. Midnight attacks were made at Jabbalpore, Gwalior and Indore. All these must be taken note of by all of us as to why there were these disturbances, what form they took and in which direction they were led. Besides, there are two other significant facts which must be taken r.cuc of. I have gone through every report of these incidents and tried to find out how many students were

injured and how many police constables were injured.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You must wind up. There are many Members who want to speak.

SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN: I have taken ten minutes.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have taken fifteen minutes. You will have one or two minutes, but you must wind up.

SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN: What I would like to state is that an equal number of policemen were injured in all these disturbances. Secondly> as has been made clear by the Home Minis-etr in a conference, 30 per cent of these demonstrators were students and the rest of them were other people. ;Sb, all these facts must be read together in a co-ordinated way and then we must try to find out what exactly must be done about all these things. Since there is little time before me I will be very brief in my .Observations. Following are some of the irresistible conclusions which emerge from the' above facts:

(1) That the- demonstrations or protests were not mainly for academic considerations. Only 6 out of 75 disturbances were for some demands concerning studies or facilities in colleges.

(2) That the students today have a mood which sparks off and once it is there, the same is used by unsocial or political elements and the students are led into violent situations.

(3) That there was a law and order situation and the police at a fairly large number of places interfered when the situation became violsnt.

(4) That entering into educational institutions by the Police unless called for by the authorities should have been avoided.

(5) That there is a master-mind behind which may be a bearded one or a bald-headed one.

341 Motion re ividespread [ RAJYA SABHA ] unrest among students 342

[Shri S. K. Vaishampayen.] It is therefore necessary that the students should consider whether they should agitate for non-academic issues and if at all they have to do so for their own demands, whether they should take to violent and anarchic methods.

A consultation machinery to solve the academic issues of the students should be evolved and they should be saved as promptly as possible. Further, the Home Ministry must take all preventive measures of isolating unsocial and mischievous political elements before any situation like this flares up. These are measures of an immediate nature.

The real remedy lies in going into the deeper causes and long-term1 solutions. We must think more seriously and with sympathy as to why the students have developed ain uneasy iemperament and a mood that can be easily sparked. Students are uneasy and disturbed more because there is an atmosphere of purposelessness. An environment of a dangerous vacuum! is growing around them and the students are exhibiting the effects of the same. This is a result of a number of factors, social, educational, political, etc.

The students community is like a kite whose thread-line is cut and which is soaring in .any direction in whichever way a gust of wind may carry it. Is this state of affairs very happy? Shall we allow this kite to float without any direction or destination? For this sorry state of affairs we are all responsible. A students, as he is .coming up, has no care of the parent, no guidance of a teacher nor any inspiration from the social life around him. This has led to a state of vacuum, uneasiness, carefree attitude and a desperate mood among the students. Let us all come together and see as parents, educationists and administrators, that this particular state of vacuum that is there in the minds of the students, which has come to stay and which has resulted in an anarchist way of thinking among them,

is removed and that the student community is made to play its rightful roie in the country. SHRI A. D. MANI (Madhya Pradesh):

I am glad that the House is having an opportunity of discussing this situation arising from the widespread student unrest in the country. It is difficult in the course of this debate to prescribe what one may call 'readymade' solutions. It should not be exactly assumed that the student unrest is a malady for which sulpha treatment or antibiotic treatment would be immediately effective. I have been trying to study this problem in many of its facts and recently in the City of N.agpur I addressed a meeting of 800 students on this question. I have discussed this matter also with some of the so-called student leaders and individual students and I feel that the present student unrest is a heritage of the past. We had in this country always yielded to violent dis-turbances. If there had been any un-dermining of respect for law and order in this country, that undermining started from the days of the States Reorganisation Commission. The House will recall that the Government had taken a decision that the City of Bombay would be Union territory and that there would be a bilingual State of Bombay and Gujarat. This decision of the Government was defied in the streets of Bombay and the Government yielded to that agitation. There was a hunger-strike by Mr Potti Sri Ramulu of revered memory from Andhra Pradesh and the Government yielded to that agitation and announced the creation of the State of Andhra Pradesh. I am not suggesting

1 SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN (Andhra Piadesh): May I correct my learned friend? it was the commitment of the Congress for the last 40 years to establish that State.

SHRI A. D. MANI: I am just coming to it. I am giving a historic survey of the causes of the student unrest and (lie present lawlessness in the country. Government itself was undermining


respect for law and order and has made it clear to all concerned by its example that it would not take any immediate action unless there is a violent disturbance.

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: We question it.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN (No-minated) : Why not Mr. Mani go back to the original fall of man?

SHRI A. D. MANI: I may even go back. If the hon. Minister of Education would examine the files regarding the student unrest, they were much less during the period 1947 to 1954 and after the States Reorganisation Commission from the manner in which the Government yielded to violent agitations, the Government has set a bad example of lawlessness. We cannot biame the students because they found that by leading a violent agitation ttiey commanded greater respect. If the Government had insisted that any lawless agitation would be seriously discountenanced and that they would not take any decision under the pressure of circumstances, they would maintain respect for law and order. If the food supply at the canteen is un-satisfactory, the students feel that by staging a demonstration in Delhi they can command immediate attention to their grievances by the authorities concerned. I am afraid all of us, not only the Government but Members of the Opposition and members of political parties, are responsible for the present state of unrest among the students as well as unrest in other walks of life.

The second point that I would like to urge, Madam, is that the country is getting tired of this so-called parliamentary form of government. I am not suggesting that we should be over' to a form of guided democracy or presidential type of government. But Parliament and the Legislatures have not offered any effective solution to the problems of the country. In Britain, Parliament was the result of a historical growth. Parliament was

first set up to curtail'the rights of the barons and we know that this was the foundation of the Magna Carta and the development of parliamentary institutions in England. But, unfortunately, here Parliament came as a readymade institution as a result of the Constitution adopted by the Constituent Assembly in 1951. This Parliament and the Legislatures in the various States, have not been effective in solving the economic problems, and the streets became the forum for parliamentary and extra-parliamentary dis-cussions. Suppose some matter is discussed on the floor of the legislatures or on the floor of Parliament, enough attention is not given by Government, not the same kind of attention which is given to a demonstration organised outside Parliament House. It is because Parliment has not fulfilled the aspirations of the people that the people are resorting to all sorts of extra-Constitutional methods for focussing public grievances.

The third point that I would like to mention is that the student unrest is a part of the present lawlessness all over the country. Yesterday the house of our revered leader, Mr. Kamaraj Nadar, was raided by some of those people who took part in the demons-tration. I want to warn the Government that a day is coming when Ministers' houses also will be raided by people . . .

1 P.M. AN HON. MEMBER; Yesterday it was

done.

SHRI A. D. MANI: . . . when people having cars and substantial private property will find hooligans marching into their houses and pulling them out. That is because there is a sense of despair in the country. The Congress is the only party which has got the organisation for governing the country. I am not a Member of the' Congress, Madam. But I feel that the Congress contains a number of very good elements which can shoul-


[Shri A. D. Mani.] der the administration and the destinies of the country.

SHRl MULKA GOVINDA REDDY (Mysore): Question.

SHRI A. D. MANI: I am coming to that. I would like th a Congress to be defeated in some States to restore democracy in the country. If democracy is to survive, the Congress Party must be defeated at the polls in some States. It is because people find that the Congress controls the purses of the people ....

SHRi AKBAR ALI KHAN: In your State also?

SHRI A. D. MANI ... My time is limited ..................and the Congress cannot be defeated at the polls because it can command better financial resources than any other party. The people are feeling that these people are going to continue in power, that they cannot begot rid of. Some of them are persons who will never find positions in any democracy of the world but they are promoted to posts of Ministers and are holding high positions of dignity. Now we must restore the sense of balance to this democracy. I feel that the situation in the country is so grave that the Congress must not think in terms of one-party government tout must think in terms of a coalition of parties to tackle the grave economic emergency facing us. It means a great sacrifice on the part of the men of the ruling party because all men cannot be accommodated in Cabinet positions. If the Congress thinks in terms of one-party Government, this kind of lawlessness will continue with unabated vigour But if other parties are allowed to take part in the Government after the elections, we may restore a sense of. normalcy to the democratic structure.

Madam, I would like to go to another point. When I was a student then also there were agitations. I remember when I attended a meeting

and shouted slogans, I was interrogated by the police after the meeting. In those days we had a cultural revival in the country. Those were the days when Sir C. V. Raman was about to get the Nobel Prize, when Dr. Megh-nad Saha had astounded the world of science by his theories in Mathematics. That was the time when Rabindranath Tagore's poems were sung in every home. But at present there is no cultural revival in the country. And this absence of cultural revival is having its impact on the minds of the students. The students find that the lecturers who have been appointed perhaps were recruited because they happened to be influentially connected with some of the Ministers or they somehow managed to manipulate the Public Service Commission to get into service. Madam, I am shocked to say that a good part of my time is taken up in Delhi at meeting people who come to me and say, "Sir, we ; appearing for interview tomorrow. Can you talk to so and so and try to see that I am selected?" And I have always said that I never interfere in such selections.

People have come to believe in this country that merit does not count, that it is influence that counts very much and it is this thing that is eroding the minds of our students. People find that the lecturers are not able to give them any attention, that the lecturers are men who have been indifferently recruited toy various Public Service Commissions. Would you like to raise any objection to what I say, Mr. Minister?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no.

SHRI A. D. MANI: I would take about five -minutes more, Madam. I am developing some points.

Madam, I feel that we must also reorganise the educational structure and try to see that the tutorial system is introduced. There must be a tecah-er who will be in charge of 20 or 25 students. He will not only take th9:r classes but go to their homes and find

347 Motion re widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among student* 348

out what their problems are. There is no personal contact between the teacher and the taught at the present time. The absence of personal contact is seen in the indifference of the student who studies and in his behaviour outside.

Madam, I would also like to say that every college must have a bureau to advise persons regarding employment. When students find that when they come out of college they have to stand in the queue for jobs, that they have to get the influence of somebody to get themselves appointed, they get desperate. We must have em-ployment bureaus in every University, in every college, where there will be a psychologist who will advise the students.

Further, the economic situation in the country must improve considerably if the student unrest is to abate. It is well known that many persons are ' maintaining students at the colleges at a great financial sacrifice.' Whenever they find that the father is to cut down on medicines or on clothing in order to see that the student is sent to the ; college and that the father has been superseded in service because of the interventions of persons in authority, the student becomes desperate. The economic situation must improve. Prices must be controlled if the student disturbances are to come down.

Madam, I would also like the Minister to consider the practice adopted by the Oxford and Cambridge ' Universities of sending down students who misbehave in colleges. It is well known, as the hon'ble Minister of Education will testify, that if a student is found often drunk and going about with undesirable girls, he is straightway sent down in the Universities. of Oxford and Cimbridge. Can that happen in our country?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (SHRI M. C. CHAGLA); We have the system of rustication or dismissal. It is for the Vlce-CnaiiceTiof TO take th? action. W° use 'be words "sending dtoirtf is Prf—d. But it is open to

the Vice-Chancellor who has got powers of discipline to rusticate a student for a year, for two years or permanently dismiss him. He has got all the powers. They have got to be exercised.

SHRI A. D. MANI: But there has not been'one case where a student at Oxford has gone to the Queen's Bench with a writ petition as is being done in this country. You cannot rusticate a student when the matter has to go to a court of law.

SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: We have fundamental rights.

SHRI A. D. MANI:. Fundamental rights are there in England also. But nobody goes to the Queen's Bench with a writ petition. Here as the hon'ble Minister of Education himself will testify, when he was the Chief Justice of Bombay, as to how many such cases he handled. There are so many persons coming up with writ petitions. You cannot rusticate students. We must give .absolute power under law, if necessary, by which the Universities will be given the right to rusticate a person if he is found guilty of misconduct.

Finally, I would like the parties to come to an agreement that they will not interfere with the working of Universities, that no political leader will try to enlist the support of students for election campaigns or be associated with any student agitation. If these suggestions are accepted, probably there may be an improvement in the present situation though I do not forsee that the student unrest will disappear until and unless the economic situation improves.

AN HON. MEMBER: How long are we sitting?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Till 1.30.'

SHRIMATI MOHINDER KATJK (Punjab): Madam Deputy Chairman, we are all worried about the continued


[Shrimati Mohinder Kaur.] student uniest in the country. I have just been hearing speeches. I do not know how many people have given thought to this problem because this particular phenomenon is not peculiar to India alone. You find this problem of using the youth in most of the developing countries. There are various factors which are responsible for it. Firstly, the high expectations the people had after attaining independence fell short due to the birth-rate having outstripped the pace of development in those countries. I will not go very far, Madam. I will confine myself to Asia alone. You know that in this one continent 56 per cent of the population of the world lives and you find that the youth are being exploited in several countries of this continent. I will draw your attention to our next door neighbours. What is happening in Pakistan, Indonesia, Red China? The youth are being exploited. In India too the youth are being exploited on a very large scale which we can understand because people are looking at the forthcoming general elections. Some irresponsible elements are taking advantage of the passions of the youth and trying to arouse them but I do not know whe-ther they understand the consequences. It is easy to exploit them, and arouse their passions but I really wonder as to what is the ultimate objective of rousing the passion of the youth. Is it only to create lawlessness in the country and to bring the ruling party to discredit? Perhaps the ultimate objective is to dislodge the Government but after all the country cannot be without a ruling party. Whichever irresponsible elements are doing this, I would like to say that they are playing with fire. They do not even realise the consequences of what they are doing because ultimately they will find it difficult to stem the tide. There is also the other side of the picture. When we look at the students and teachers, why are they agitated? Perhaps they also have genuine grievances. We should look .into that also. I agree with the seve-

ral speakers who have spoken before me. They have said that because of certain appointments that we have made in the Universities which have really not been made on merit this is happening. Most of us agree on that point because I feel that some Regis-trars or Vice-Chancellors are not ideally suited and I would request the Education Minister to see to it that such appointments are only made on merits and on no other consideration because if we want to find leaders to lead the students, then they must be found from within the campus of a University and not from outside from where we may like to rehabilitate some people. I am not speaking from hearsay or from newspaper reports. My work takes me to the different parts of the country. I have travelled a good deal in connection with my work. I am speaking from pefsonal experience and from my own judgement. On several occasions I have met several of our Vice-Chancellors and I have been greatly surprised as to how they have come to occupy such positions of responsibility in this country. I very humbly submit to the Education Minister in the future to take care that Registrars and Vice-Chancellors are appointed onb on merit and not on any political consideration because if such people are appointed how can we expect the students to look up to them and expect the teachers to respect them? If they cannot look up to the Vice-Chancellor Or to the Registrar, how can we expect any discipline because you can only discipline a person if you command a certain respect.

Various other factors are also there. Many have suggested various reasons for the agitation. They have also suggested that there should be more spacious educational institutions, there should be extra curricular activities and the teachers should be better paid. These are justifiable demands but in a country like ours these cannot be achieved overnight, particularly with a poor economy like


ours when we are making desparate efforts to bridge the abnormal gap between supply and demand but these are ideals which we should aim at certainly when our resources permit us.

The Education Minister had appointed an Education Commission which has brought to light certain things and I hope he will implement them. One of the recommendations is that the teachers should have a better status, should receive better salaries, that their service conditions should be looked into, etc. Unless it is done this profession cannot be attractive. You look at the qualifications of the teachers but they are one of the poorest members of the society. They have to study, hard and what do they get? This profession is thoroughly unattractive and so people with the right aptitude do not come into it. So this recommendation of the Commission should be accepted by the Government and it should be implemented. I am fully aware of our economic conditions. If our finances permit, this is one of the recommendations which should be speedily implemented.

I will come to the students. In my work I have had a great deal to do with the students. I do not wish to speak about myself bait I want to tell you that in the past 13 years I have had a lot to do with the students in my capicity as Chairman as well as Vice-Chairman of the Small Savings Board in Punjab. I have tried to get the cooperation of the students and I have never found them unwilling to help. Whenever I have gone to them for any constructive programme I have always found them very willing and they have helped me out a great deal. Perhaps it might interest you to know that in Punjab in 1800 institutions we have been able to implement the Saving". Sch-.me with the help of the students. Their interest in constructive work hqs not vaned. If we hqve not channelised them for constructive work it is our fault. This is only one of the things where T toil you from experience that I have

taken the cooperation of the students. Punjab is the only State where we have built up 9 lac accumulated Time deposit accounts and that has been done with the help of educational institutions and Panchayats and I have always found that whenever I have gone to the students for any constructive programme, I have received their cooperation. This is one of the fields where we should channelise their energy for any constructive work and if we do it, I am sure help will be forthcoming but we have to use our imagination. There are very many spheres where students could be easily used. For instance during their holidays, when we are laying so much stress on intensive agriculture and when Government is giving so many facilities to agriculture and India is a country where the percentage of literacy is very very low) I feel that we could utilise the students, most of them come from the rural areas, to go to the villages to see about the facilities to be given there, about loans to farmers, etc. You can channelise their energy into building up this country.

I will not take very much more of your time. I would like to complement the Education Minister for his very bold and imaginative action. He is the person who boldly set up a Commission and I am sure every rational person in this country will stand by him if he can find a remedy to this problem. There is nothing more that I have to add but I again stress that you must utilise the energy of the students because that is the only way by which we can stop all this exploitation by irresponsible elements—I would not like to use any other name except irresponsible ele-ment"—because it is only in their spare time, when they feel frustrated, that they are vulnerable to this exploitation. If we make them feel that they are members of the society, that they are citizens of this country and they also have a responsibility in this country for procreative work and build up the economy of this country, I am sure we should be able to solve this problem,

353 Motion re widespread [ RAJYA SABHA ] unrest among students 354.

[Shrimati Mohinder Kaur.] Lastly, I will tell you how to deal with the present discontent. I feel that in each State there should be a State level Committee to go into this problem mainly comprising of educationists and people in public life. I do not mean by that merely politicians but others also have a role to play in public life—people in cultural life, social field, etc You should get that team together and tell them to meet the students in the Universities and colleges, wherever there is a programme for unrest. They should find out the cause of discontent, whether it is among the teachers or students. If there are any genuine grievances, then the Government should certainly look into them. I am suggesting this solution. These Committees could act as liaison between the students of the institutions and the Ministry of Education and if you accept this proposal, we can meet this challenge which is posed by irresponsible elements in this country.


THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Khandekar. you may continue later. Vou have spoken for ten minutes; you will have five minutes after the lunch hour.

The House stands adjourned till 2.30 in the afternoon.

The House then adjourned for lunch at half-past one of the clock.

The House reassembled after lunch at half-past two of the clock, THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. BHAR-GAVA) in the Chair.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRT M. P. BHARGAVA): Mr. Poonacha.

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (Uttar Pradesh): Mr. Vice-Chairman, I have to raise a point. The mover of the resolution himself is not present. When at any time a Minister is absent from the Treasury benches the whole Opposition takes a very serious view of this and I think in order to maintain the decorum and dignity of the House at least the Opposition should be a bit considerate. They should show that much courtesy to the House by being present in the House if they move a particular motion and I hope the Chair will instruct the Opposition to behave pro-perly in the future.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA): Mr. Poonacha.

STATEMENT RE. CYCLONE WHICH PASSED OVER MADRAS ON THE 3RD

NOVEMBER, 1966

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT AND AVIATION (SHRI C. M. POONACHA): Sir, I beg to lay on the Table of the House a statement regarding the cyclone that passed over Madras and the loss sustained to some vessels at the Port of Madras. [Placed in Library. See No. LT-7248/66.]

MOTION RE. WIDESPREAD UNREST ' AMONG STUDENTS —contd.

359 Motion re widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 1 unrest among students 360

361 Motion re widespread f RAJYA SABHA ] unrest among students 362

SHRI SHANTILAL KOTHARI

(Rajasthan): Mr. Vice-Chairman, the Education Minister, in his statement has rightly imaged the student community. Student is a metal composed of triple elements, viz., patriotism, idealism and dynamism of youth. Nothing more could be said about the student and I am quite sure the student community in this country would be most responsive to our dynamic Education Minister who has called upon the students to implement these very basic and high elements in their academic career. We are discussing the causes of, and the cure for, student unrest. We are feeling anxiety about it. I wonder if the word 'unrest' would really be appropriate in this context. It is distortion in my view. It is a series of distortions that we find in the life of the student, in the educational field, as in any other walk of life in this country wedded to development in a democratic framework. The Minister has felt rightly that there is a lack of amenities, but we have also to remember that we have limited resources. We have got to look to the needs of all sections. Surely as a result of the expansion of eduactional facilities and educational institutions, there is

363 Motion re widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among student* 364

paucity of teachers and paucity of many things in the educational field. Only this morning the Mover of the Resolution, Hon'ble Mr. Chordia, wisely referred to the constant use of the student community for parochial political purposes. Everyone will agree to condemn it. We have only heard the other day my hon. friend opposite, Hon'ble Mr. Rajnarain, calling upon the students to combine with the other elements dissatisfied for one reason or another, to oust the Government. Does my friend want to displace the Government by violance? Has he lost faith in votes? And is it right for a Member sitting in this august House to make statements which could not be termed as responsible? We want to evoke response in the student community by ourselves being responsible, by ourselves giving an example as to how a representative should and must function here as well as outside the House. There has been a constant talk about political exploitation of the students. While discussing about political exploitation sometimes the question comes of political participation of students. As one who has participated in the quit India movement, I have seen it from outside as well as inside the jail—I feel that there is need to redefine the concept of politics. Is politics to be equated with rowdyism? Does politics mean an unhygienic civic sense or lack of any civic sense? What does politics mean? Would we be here without the best traditions of democratic politics? We would not be here. Politics is nothing but an instrument for giving our best to the maximum in the best manner in an atmosphere of maximum consultation process. Therefore, participation of students in political education is the most important thing. They must know it. They must be encouraged to know what sort of personalities are growing, what sort of institutions are growing around for them to participate. Political agitation is another thing. We must differentiate between the two. Political agitation is for a parochial purpose indulged in by a short-sighted politician, whether right I2&0 RSD—5.

or wrong. But i think political education must be emphasised at least a* the post-graduate level and we must not club them together. Political agitators are mainly a batch of permanent and professional students, mean-ing those who always fail as student*, and they must be dealt with, if yom really want to encourage and allow the large number of genuine students to work within the precincts of any university and schools to study calmly and peacefully.

Then, there is reference made t» political leadership. Politicians d» this and that, some say. The time has come for us to comprehend its implications. The moment you encourage the trend to discredit all political leadership in the country, what else would be left between the direct mob action and the Government? Political leadership alone is the insulator to transmit both ways. Let us for heaven's sake not discredit political leadersbip. It may be Oppositio* Members, it may be our own ruling Party. Political leadership has a positive role to play. It must directly come into contact with students as any other community. It has to explain to them the future fabric of the policy that they are going to inherit from us, what are their duties and responsibilities, what are the challenges and what are our experiences. Sometimes we got lost. We as link question of today were involved im the movement for India's freedom. But now India is free and each politi-cian must help to enlighten his colleague, in whatever walk of life he or she may be. Also, we must restore the image of a politician. I think * politician as such is the only person who take responsibilities and risks. No one knows what would happen today or tomorrow. It is not a small thing. Therefore, we must all collectively help in the restoration of the dignity of politics and let us thereby bring about political hygiene in this nation once again.

The Education Commission has brought out some of the things whick I have discussed myself with some


[Shri Shantilal Kothari] •tudents. It recommends for joint councils of students, for institution of a Dean of Student Welfare. The Minister has invited all of us and others too to help him and the Gov-ernment with more suggestions. This is our task. I think our contact with students should be to explain and interpret it and also warn them that when we die they will have to run the Government. They will have to bear the brunt of what they are doing to the society. Let them be prepared in the art of politics properly. We will have to show them the positive meaning of politics by our own behaviour and performance. They will have to construct their own language. The foundation must be sound and healthy. My friend, Mr. Chordia, has referred to a sort of repression. He very often repeated that the Government bows down to any agitation. I do not know if it can be called bowing down or accommodating. The Government accommodates because of the democratic machinery that we have got. It accommodates views and differing ones in a democratic manner. Also they may be out-of-date, they may not be sound or some of them may be sound. This is democracy. Democracy is not the rule of one man. It is a rule of wisdom dawning from the masses; as far as they want to go the Government can stretch. He also said that they must be repressed— agitation must be dried down—and curiously confuses accommodation with surrender. Does he mean that the Government must be insensitive to wishes of the people? What sort of Government is he thinking of it one differs with the ruling party? Does he relish a Government as we have today where he can discuss matters freely and without fear, or he suggests for an autocratic despotic one? I am sure this latter one—dangerous thesis—should be re-examined by them with a sense of perception. Let us tell the students to study, despite the problems which are there and nobody can deny them. The other day the Vice-Chancellor of the Allahabad

University said that the entry of the police in the campus to say the least was a most unholy thing done and no sane man can disagree with him. But how do we prevent that? Is it by bringing premature and immature students in front of us to be killed, to be shot dead? But none of the politically premature leaders would take risk to lead the student community in a wrong agitational movement because of fear of their lives. What a shame! If we are convinced that the students have been right, let us lead them. Let them not lead us. There must not be erosion of sense of responsibility. That is where sincerity is tested. The students have very sound and instinctive judgment. They can probe into our mind.

I also plead this for the consideration of the Government that there is nepotism in recruitment at important levels, in the university life, in academic life, in admissions, in scholarships, and so on. There is. But the Government is endeavouring to remove it through studies, through appointment of Commissions, and they are sincerely approaching the problem. Bureaucratic lethargy and unperceptive leadership vitiate and delay the progress and this must not repeat. Did the Government not engage itself with the problem, before this motion came in? The Education Commission was appointed long ago when there was no unrest or dis-tortion and we should have waited for the Commission's report to come in. I admit of the unnecessary and undue delay. The Education Commission Report tells the students to deliberate over a charter, it reminds them "this is your charter; ask us what else we can do or add." That can be a positive approach of an enlightened political leadership irrespective of political ideologies. This is politics of patriotism. I am sure my £;iends would do it henceforth.

I request the Government to consider the desirability of the composing of. the councils or committees of the parents" associations. Sometimes


what happens? The series of students' agitations led by negative minds for negative ends resulted, as in Germany in 1934-35, in their being cannon-fodder of the most terrible dictatorship of the age. Let us also realise that there must be purposive councils where parents are represented, where teachers are represented, and these composite councils of parents, teachers and students will besides delivering the goods to the students continue the chain of age and image of the generation and re-establish the centres of mutual understanding and mutual enlightenment. On the other hand if we allow the bane of vio-lence to continue to spread what will be the result? The result will be that no institution can function within the framework of the rule of law without which many worse things' can happen. However, India is the only country of the postwar world where twice succession had been solved in a democratic manner. There is no country in the world where in a democratic way this solution was found by the people. This is a fabric of the democratic polity which we intend to hand down to our own generation a bit more healthier. There was another country, Isreal, where there was a change, peaceful change of succession. But unfortunately the man who was succeeded left the party. India is the only country. See the distortions of political sociology. Distortions are there. But on certain fundamentals there should be agreement. I appeal through you to our friends that if there is a lapse and erosion in political responsibility on the part of the ruling party or Government, let it not be countered by lapse and eroded sense of civic responsibility on the part of the growing generation. Let them grow with us and the country will grow with them. Thank you.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: I find that as usual when I speak I have the good luck of having you, Mr. Vice-Chairman, in the Chair! I

have another piece of good luck to be thankful for, that the trinity of the Education Ministry are in their seats and particularly one of them who is so very rare in this House. That is my second piece of good luck. ,

SHRI B. K. P. SINHA (Bihar): Which is that one?

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: I leave it to your imagination. This question of what has been called the student unrest is one of the biggest things to which all of us who have the good of India at heart must give our most careful consideration. I remember how often in the history of different countries this kind of situation affecting students became the harbinger of revolutions and big changes. When in any country, the students rise up in revolt, rightly or wrongly, when in any country students go out into the streets taking the law and their own lives into their hands, then something is happening with which the nation must reckon. We have seen from the papers that Vice-Chancellors; Ministers and many other big people have been sitting together and giving thought to this problem of what is moving the students. But what they are discussing and what they are proposing do not seem to have the slightest effect upon the situation. There is a gap between thinking and action. It is a very fateful gap, if I may say so. In matters like this when you have proposals and schemes, to implement, time is the essence of the matter. Delay means not only not doing something but creating new conditions in which you cannot act at all. I must say that I am one of those conversant with students and student problems. When I am not sitting in this House, I am all the time in the midst of at least two thousand students with whom I move daily, whom I meet daily, whose problems come to me and to which I react. And it is my very firm conviction that the Indian stu-


[Shri G. Ramachandran] dent is as good as a student in any-other country of the world, that if the Indian student is approached in the right manner and given the right treatment, he can be. the greatest asset to this country. We have now seen in other countries—when all other sections of the people have been pushed back and defeated, the students have come up to rejuvenate their countries. Look at Indonesia. Maybe at the moment it is going in one direction, it may equally go in another direction. To begin with, therefore, let no one look upon the students as a kind of nuisance in the country, as a problem in the country. They are not a problem at all. The problem is yourself and myself. It is the student who is willing to solve problems if you and I will not solve them in time.

I have never had in the last 40 years of my life even one experience in which, with the right approach, the student has not responded. They respond much more quickly than any other section of the people, with the right approach. So, the students are not a problem. We are creating problems for them. And the biggest problem we have created is the edu-cational system into which millions of these students are being thrown today. The whola of the system requires a radical change. I know, the Education Minister is sitting here, and we have now the Report of the Education Commission. But I have seen many Commissions and Reports, Sir. They remain on paper. Many things will remain on paper. I know that the present Education Minister is a very active person, a courageous person. But I am not sure that even he is going to see that the recommendations of this Education Commission are implemented entirely in this country. But that is a different matter. The entire system of education has many glaring faults which we are not able to correct. To begin with, whom do we really mean now when we talk of the students? Not the primary school

students, the innocent boys and girls who know nothing, who do no harm, who listen to us and obey us; not eve» the high school students except here and there because the high schools furnish a fairly peaceful scene ia this country. It is at the university and college levels that the boys are breaking themselves up, kicking and struggling, but kicking and struggling for a new life for themselves.

Now, the first thing that strikes anyone who is an impartial observer— not somebody running away with foreign ideas, Russian or French or British or American ideas of educa-tion—is that our students grow up as aliens to their own culture. There is no such thing as Indian culture in the midst of which our boys are growing up in the universities. I ana not pleading for anything narrow. Having been a student at the Viswa Bharati and having learnt my lessons at the feet of the greatest Interna-tionalist of this Century in this country, I do not want to plead for any narrow nationalism. But without a background of Indian culture, your university education is a complete mockery. How many of our students know anything about Indian culture? Ask them about any of the great figures; of India, about the cultural traditions of India. They are only names to them. We talk a [THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair.} great deal about Indian culture. I have heard Mr. Chagla waxing eloquent over Indian culture. But look at the universities. What is happening in the universities? Is there any-thing called Indian culture in which our boys and girls are growing up even today in the year 1966, after so many years of the freedom of the Republic of India? Everything has changed in this country. Most things have changed in this country but university education has not changed. It is going along the old ruts. Now, unless our students have a deep cultural background in the soil of India, how will they passionately love this country? The other day, Acharya Kripalani was asking somewhere:


"What is it that we are to love in this country? Our food habits are oo longer Indian, our dress is no longer Indian, our language is no longer Indian, and no tradition is an Indian tradition. Everything Indian is treated with contempt and still we talk about Indian culture". That is the first point. It is the truth of the matter.

Unless our boys get deeply rooted in the culture of India, they will not in their hearts develop a deep passion and love for our country.

Then, will not the students, I ask you, Madam, respond to the environment? What is the environment in India today? Disciplines have broken down all over the country. Look at what happened yesterday and the day before yesterday in the City of Delhi. Can anything be of a greater shame to the Capital of the Republic than what happened in this city the other day—blind violence running riot? People knew that this would happen, and then everything happened. And after everything has happened—this is the present tradition of India—wise men sit round a table doing some kind of post-mortem examination of the problem. We do not anticipate what will happen. We do not take steps to prevent something happening. Wisdom always comes late in this country, particularly in the last few years of our history. What will the students of Delhi do, the university students and the college students? And there are universities and colleges in and around Delhi. They look at these things. What is it that they are to learn and respond to in the environment which surrounds them? And who has created this environment, if not the leaders of this country? They brush aside all problems, they will not look at the problems in the face and solve them in time. They have no courage to take charge of a situation as soon as it arises and to do things that are necessary. Evading, evading, all the time. What are the young people to learn from us?

Look at what is happening in Parliament? Is there any discipline in Parliament? Members are shouting at each other as if they are in the market place. The students are watching them from the galleries. They will open the paper tomorrow and they will see this and they will see that the whole country is in the grip of indiscipline. Then they join the fray and try to have a grand time. We must change the environment in this country. The leaders must set an example of discipline, of sacrifice and of devotion. Those are all dead today. Discipline, devotion, sacrifice! Where are they today? Everybody wants to grab as much as he can and the student is watching it all, from behind and says, "All right. I will also try to grab as much as I can." Where is the example of selfless devotion that leader-ship is furnishing in this country?

Madam, the other day when I was coming in the plane from Madras there were two gentlemen sitting on either side of me. They were talking about student indiscipline and they attributed the entire indiscipline of the students to Mahatma Gandhi, saying that Mahatma Gandhi was the first leader to call out the students. I let them go on for some time and then I came to grips with them.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): Did anyone of them join the Ministry?

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: Luckily not. I think the next one who might want to join the Ministry will be Mr. Bhupesh Gupta. They were discussing the matter. And then I told them when Gandhiji called out the students in this country he called them out to liberate India from subjection. I asked them, "Do you know, gentlemen, that when the First and the Second World Wars came, the Universities 0f Oxford and Cambridge were lying empty and the flower of the youth of the Universities were in the battlefield?"


[Shri G. Ramachandra!*] What Gandhiji was trying to do was to liberate India in which every one had to participate. And mind you, the students who participated in the non-violent revolutions of India were the most disciplined people in this country. They never broke the windows or burnt buses. They never attacked others. They followed their commander, and stood up against lathi charges and the police. They were not indulging in indiscipline but in the most disciplined resistance to tyranny. In fact, Mahatma Gandhi's acts of rebellion were always acts of supreme discipline by those who were participating in it. Nobody can today challenge the fact of our history. People who never came within a ten-mile distance of the freedom struggle are now sitting back and talking such nonsense today. Mahatma Gandhi inculcated the greatest discipline in the youngmen of this country. I was one of those who grew up under such discipline.

Madam, we want genuine leadership. And who are today the leaders of the students? Here I come to the crux of the problem. We must not neglect the teacher—every time we are talking of discipline of students and the well-being of students. No two sections of the people are closer to each other than the teacher and the student. What is the plight of our teachers? They are poorly paid, frustrated, official kind of people, who come to the class room, deliver the lecture and walk out. After that there is absolutely no link between the teacher and the student. Mr. Chagla knows that in every University, in 90 per cent, of the cases, the teacher and the student have no link with each other. How can you build up the student life in this country under these conditions?

We have a modern University education but there are none of the things which make University education really modern. I have some little experience of Universities in other countries and I must tell you

that there is close link between the teacher and the student in th* American Universities and even in the conservative British Universities, and certainly in Russia and Germany, Belgium, Poland and other countries I have visited. There is a close link between the teacher and the student. The teacher knows his student. Here there is hardly a teacher who knows his student. The numbers are so vast. And I do not know who developed the stupid idea that all colleges must be brought into one campus. I do not know why. What we require is to spread out the colleges and the campuses instead of concentrating twenty or thirty thousand students into one campus. You are creating a problem where there is no problem. We want to decentralise. We want to throw open the area wider and wider. On the other hand we bring everything into one single campus and the result is that these problems come up. There is really no link between the teacher and the student. What will Mr. Chagla do? I am asking him. What will others concerned with the implementation of the Education Commission's Report do to establish a friendly atmosphere between the teacher and the student, instead of this high-low relationship, to create an intimate, personal, cordial, friendly relationship between the teacher and the student?

When Mr. Chagla was moving the Jawaharlal Nehru University Bill I pleaded that that University should set an example to the rest of India of being a students' Republic. Do the Universities belong to the students or the teachers? I think the Uni-versities belong 90 per cent, to the students and only 10 per cent, to the teachers. We should build up students' Republics. Mahatma Gandhi, in his scheme of education, stressed on one thing which is totally neglected in education today—students' self-government based on self help. I have a primary school.

375 Motion re. widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among students 376 THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Ramachandran, I do not want to interrupt you but you have taken about 15 minutes.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: I accept your warning. I have a High . School and four colleges in Gandhi-gram. But in every section there is a Parliament of students, called the "Aam Sabha". The Parliament elects their own Prime Minister and their Ministers who have different functions in the community and undertake hard responsibilities. Every month the Parliament meets and the Ministers report to the Parliament. You, Madam Deputy Chairman, should come and sit in one of my Parliaments. You will find it far more entertaining than the Rajya Sabha. Questions are asked, challenges made and everything is ventilated freely and openly on the floor of the Students' Parliament. There is hardly any problem which cannot be solved by them. They are all solved there by themselves and amongst themselves because the entire responsibility is theirs. For instance, we do not touch the hostels. The hostels are run by the students on their own. They make their budget. They do their marketing. They serve the food. They are the masters. Students' self-government based on Community work is the key to student discipline. Leave it to them. Throw it back upon them. Instead of doing that you want to lead them. I say give them the fullest liberty consistent with the four corners of decency, high conduct, to deal with their own affairs. It is a very big question.

You have already warned me though I have hardly touched the fringe of the subject. But this is a very important problem. I know Mr. Chagla and other friends are giving thought to it. But I am wondering whether what they do will be adequate to make an impact on the students in this country unless we totally raise the level of discipline in this country at every

level of life and establish the closest and friendliest relation between the student and the teacher and give the students the responsibility to govern themselves.

Sometimes I hear that academic study is a sacrosanct thing; and what have the students got to do with it? We then lay down the rules. I say, no, even the curriculum, the syllabus and everything must get their approval through their elected representatives. Once you carry them with you it becomes so easy. Throw the responsibilities back upon them and they will hav« to maintain their own discipline. There will be no student unrest in this country. Let them take charge of themselves. Let every University become a Republic of students. Let every University cultivate such responsible life. Let every University cultivate the closest links between the teacher and the student. It is not an easy thing. It is a tremendously difficult thing. I wish the Education Minister and all those who are at this problem godspeed provided they face up to the problems squarely.

Thank you.

377 Motion re. widespread [ RAJYA SABHA ] unrest among students 378

379 Motion re. widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest among students 380

381 Motion re. widespread [RAJYA SABHA] unrest among students 382

383 Motion re. widespread [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] unrest ar».ong students 384


THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You must now wind up, please.

SHRI G. MURAHARI: Just a few more minutes.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have taken over 16 to 17 minutes. Please wind up.

COL. B. H. ZAIDI (Uttar Pradesh):

Madam, I listened with very great interest to the speech which fell from the lip of my revered friend, Mr. Ramachandran, and I find myself in complete agreement with the senti-ments which he expressed. In spite of the pain, which the behaviour of students in our country during the last few months has caused, I have not lost faith in the youth o'f our country. As you know, the world is passing through a very difficult period. In so

393 Motion re. widespread [ RAJYA SABHA ] unrest avt,ong students 394

[Col. B. H. Zaidi] many Western countries where the society is affluent, where the young people have got all those amenities and comforts denied to the boys and girls of my country, we find a large number of angry youngmen who are resorting, every now and then, to the most henious crimes and most indecent action. If young people in our country sometimes lose patience and misbehave we know the disabilities and handicaps they are suffering from. Conditions in our schools and colleges leave very much to be desired. Lack of proper buildings and equipment, sufficient number of teachers and contented and happy teachers, is something which we see existing all over the country. Then, as you know, education at every level has made very great strides in recent years. From primary education up to university education progress has been geometrical, but young people who now flock •our colleges and universities are very often drawn from families which have no traditions of culture or education. I do not mean that these people should not be given opportunities for being educated up to the highest level. They have every right, according to their aptitude and their capacity. What I mean is we should not be unmindful of their social background. I know of so many young people who go back to a home, which is a one-room tenement measuring ten by ten or twelve by ten feet, with a father, mother and four or five brothers and sisters shouting and shrieking. Here is a youngman studing for his B.A. or M.A. He is living in a hovel. How is he to study? How can he have peace of mind? So, these are the conditions in which our-young people have to study and I wonder not that they feel dissatisfied. There are many other factors which lead to discontent among students. As has been rightly said, nature abhors a vaccum. Today we find that our young people h=ive a very big vaccum in their lives. They have little faith, little hone, verv few ideals. Thev have lost faith in their leaders, teachers and their elders and yet there is discrimination. I wish to have just "one ex-

ample. To the city of Indore recently two distinguished leaders went and wanted to address the people there. They could not speak. The microphone was disconnected, the lights were switched off. And our revered President goes there after a few days. What happened? There was pin-drop silence, tremendous enthusiasm and acclamation and it is not that our President uses soft words. He hits and speaks his mind openly. People have faith in his integrity, in his moral and spiritual greatness and, therefore, whe» he goes to the same city, the young people listen to him with pin-drop silence. So, these are the various fac-tors which have led to lack of faith and lack of hope on the part of our young people. Then . . .

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Who are the leaders to whom you refer? (Interruption).

COL. B. H. ZAIDI: Our young people see what is happening in the neighbouring countries. They hear and read about the activities of the Red Guards in China. They sometimes feel that they are the Red Guards of India. They also read about the youth of Indonesia making and unmaking Ministers and Governments and they naturally feel that they can also be a force in the country-There is a tremendous difference between the Red Guards, the Indonesian youth and the young people o'f our country. Perhaps I am not wrong in saying that the Red Guards in China are indulging in various activities because the Party and their leaders want them to do that. They have the backing and support of the leaders and the rulers of that country. Similarly, in Indonesia also the young people are acting because they know that they have the support and backing of their new Government. That is not so in our country. In our country these young people are acting against the administration, against the Govern-ment, against law and order in the land. I want, therefore, to distinguish between two sets of circumstances. As I said, there are all these various dis-


abilities which our youth is suffering from. I am fully conscious of that, but the same disabilities existed last year and the year before last. Those conditions are shameful and must be changed. We want better opportunities to be given to our young people. We want to give them better schools, well-paid teachers. There should be greater interest on the part o'f teachers in the welfare of the taught. There should be students' councils and self-government, so that they get an opportunity to give expression to their grievances. and their troubles. All this is very necessary. But this was true last year. It was true the year before last and it is true today. What has happened today, in the last few months, that suddenly we find this upsurge of violence? It is not violence only on the part of students. There is an upsurge of violence over the protection of the cow. There is an upsurge of violence over the location of a steel plant in Andhra. Thero is an upsurge of violence over all sorts of complaints, real or imaginary, very often trivial. Therefore, we have to sit back . . .

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Was it not organised in Durgapur by the Congress Party . . .

COL. B. H. ZAIDI: I hope my friend will get his opportunity to make a speech. I am a back-bencher and I may be shown a little indulgence. I cannot be pitted against such stalwarts and giants of Rajya Sabha as my friend over there. May I be left in peace? Madam I was saying that we have to take into consideration and analyse why the trouble has started, why violence has erupted only now, only a few months before the general election is due. I for one feel that these young people, whom I love and in whom I have great faith, are not to blame. Ninety per cent of our boys and girls believe in discipline even today when old morals, ideals and values have been eroded. There are still in my country people who have respect for their elders and their teachers. They believe in the moral and spiritual heritage of this great motherland As I

1290 RSD—6.

said it is only at the most ten per cent of our youth, which is wavered and undisciplined. They unfortunately take the lead. They become the leaders and guides of the rest of the student community. You may ask why do the ninety per cent allow themselves to foe led and to be misguided by a handful of their fellow-students. I have seen the sorry spectacle in the country. This is the tradition in our national life that the good people who are in a mojority, believe in sitting back quitely in their homes and not get mixed up in mischief and disorderly conduct. In the city of Delhi I have been reading in papers now and then that people are attacked, they are raped, they are murdered in daylight in the streets of Delhi. Hundreds of people witness the spectacle and no one goes forward to arrest that man or help the victim. There are women abducted openly in our thoroughfares and the good people, theShariflock" say: If this is our national character, if we as a people behave in this fashion, we cannot blame the students for giving the leadership of the student community to those who do not believe in discipline or in scholastic values. Therefore, Madam, once we realise that these young people today are not to blame so much, that they are being misguided and are being exploited, we must be extremely careful, and I shall end by making a few suggestions as to what should be done.

I feel that very often the demands of the students are very very trivial. They can be very easily met, but the teachers and the Managing Committees turn a deaf ear. They show a great deal of unpardonable indifference and callousness in looking into those small complaints. A stitch in time they say saves nine, and a little attention and a little care bestowed in the nick of time will save a lot of trouble. We know that our youth is being encouraged to indulge in subversive

397 Motion re. widespread [RAJYA SABHA] unrest among students 398

[Col. B. H. Zaidi] and mischievous activities. Therefore, the teachers, the managers, all those who are connected with the running and administering of educational institutions ought to take every possible care that the students are met and their complaints are listened to and attended to as expeditiously as possible.

Madam, we have had a lot of trouble in Delhi over the angry reaction of the law students to the decision of the Bar Council. There was fight between the students and the police for weeks. Nothing was done and only now a lew days ago a concession has been shown to the law students. Could this not be done in time? Why do we always wait throughout our national life? We are suffering from this lack of decision in time. Everything is put off and this is the bane of our national life and the same extends to the educational sphere. As I said, very often the complaints are very very trivial. I am connected with a college in Delhi. The students one day went on strike. The teachers there are very sympa-thetic. They got hold of the students and said: "What do you want? Please let us have what you call your charter of demands." Three days ago I examined the charter of demands. They want their college building to look more attractive. The plaster is crumbling and the paint is very faint, and the atmosphere is uninspiring. Then they want better food. One of their com-plants is that the girls are not allowed to have tea in the boys' canteen. Why should they be separated? There are many demands like that. So, if these things are sympathetically looked into and examined and the students are satisfied, a great deal of trouble can be avoided. But if violence breaks out and action has to be taken, we must once and for all make up our minds that our students are not a privileged class. They are a privileged class in the sense that they have the privilege of being educated in. our schools, colleges and universities. How many of our countrymen get the privilege of going to a college or a university? These

are very lucky people in the sense that they can be looked upon a» a privileged class, and that privilege also entails a duty to the society and to the country. But apart from this students should not be treated as a privileged class. To say that the police should look upon these young men who many be breaking windows and setting motor cars and houses on fire as their children will not do. If they are indulging in destruction and subversive activities, they should not bo looked upon as students, they should be looked upon as people who are indulging in crime and should be treated as such. If is because we do not distinguish between the 90 or 95 per cent of well-behaved and decent students and these 5 per cent madcaps, and part of the trouble is due to that and we have to make up our mind on the one hand so far as the student community at large is concerned. We must take up a sympathetic attitude examine their grievances, create greater amenities and welfare measures, and on the other hand we must strongly and with firm determination deal with these who act as criminals.

Before I sit down there is just one word I want to say for the hon. Ministers here. We are a poor country no doubt, but I feel that education is being starved. Enough funds are not being made available to it. I have one thing specially in my mind to which I would like to make a reference. So many schools in Delhi throughout the winter, summer and the rains are carrying on in tents and shamianas. The explanation is that we are a poor country, that we have not got the money. Every year palatial buildings for the Secretariat are going up. Every year we see one or two new buildings going up because our Secretariat people cannot work in those wartime hutments which were put up. They are not good enough. We must therefore have those buildings at a cost of something like Rs. 70 lakhs or Rs. 90 lakhs. There is


enough money for these buildings. People cannot work, departments can not work in these old hutments, but our boys and girls should continue to study in tents and under shamianas. I think this is most shameful. If there is no money, let our Secretaries, Joint Secretaries an.d others work in the wartime tenements and hutments. If there is money, lakhs and lakhs of rupees for the extension of the Secretariat, let Mr. Chagla see that there is not a single school in Delhi which continues to work under shamanias.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY (Madras): Madam, I thank you for giving me five minutes to speak. We are passing through a critical time, in our history after independence. The incidents that occur everyday in the country resulting in violence and bloodshed are something very similar to what we witnessed at the time of partition. Madam, students are on the forefront in the disturbances we see throught India. It is not a regional question nor a social question, but a national question. We all must look at it dispassionately and find out the real cause for the disturbances. The real cause is, according to me, there is widespread frustration in the minds of students. To them the future looks very very bleak. They have now reached a stage where they feel that all their labour, studies and perseverence will have no bearing in their later life because the whole educational' system is ;ive. The economic depression in the country brought about by this Government has closed all doors for young people in the country who come out of colleges and schools to find useful avocations and employment as per their aptitudes. The poverty that stares at their faces at home is such that they dive them to extreme ends to resort to violence. They look around and see politicians going about the country enjoying all the luxuries by indulging in shady deals, wire-pulling and power politics, and they have all luxries in their life. These politicians have become the new class which is

the ruling class today and there is absolutely no basis for the rich, pomp and pleasure that they enjoy today. It is their politics and power politics and power politics alone that got them to elevated positions. The student community also looks at them and finds that the politicians have neither any educational qualifications nor disciplined training except their political manoeuvres. When the students compare their life as against the life of the politicians which is now corroding the public life in India and when they look at their own dismal and poverty-stricken life because of the policies of the Government, anger gets into their minds and they feel, why should we study so much and waste our good money when power and pomp and other things could be obtained through political machinations? They look at the life of the politicians and leaders and think that these leaders have ele-vated themselves by resorting to unlawful activities during pre-indepen-dence days, why not we also indulge in them? And they come to the conclusion that they can do so by adopting the same methods, without caring about the context. This is one of the reasons which I attribute to the student unrest.

Another important reason is that the political leaders also instigate them to start violence for their own convenience. When I say political leaders, I include in that category the Congress leaders also. The latest - incident in Andhra is being encouraged indirectly by the local ruling elements. The Chief Minister, Mr. Brahmananda Reddy, has not condemned it as much as his office requires him to do. He, like many others, I am afraid, is of the opinion that the Centre yteTds only in the face of violence. If this is his opi-nion to be fair to him, I would say that he is right. It is a fact that the Centre also behaves in this way. The time has come now when the Centre must also put an end to this feeling that they bow to violence. I am sorry to say that the conditions that lead to violence are prevailing not only amon


[Shri S. S. Mariswamy] the students but among in the entire community that forms the nation. It is like an epidemic spreading every-where. Please permit me to narrate an incident that happened a couple of days before in my home State of Madras. There is a place called Udu-malpet in Coimbatore District. There, one of the distinguished Members of this House, Mr. C. N. Annadurai, the leader of the DMK, was to address a public meeting in a village. While his associates were proceeding to the village in two cars to see that the arrangements for the meeting were intact, they were attacked by lethal weapons by the people of the ruling party. Mr. C. N. Annadurai was not in any of these cars, luckily. The weapons they used, I am told, were deadly, lethal weapons.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We are discussing about the students unrest.

SHRI S. MARISWAMY: It is a part and parcel of the community. What is happening among the students is happening everywhere. The ruling party has absolutely . . .

SHRI K. S. RAMASWAMY (Madras): How do you say that they are members of the ruling party? I object to that.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: i learn from a reliable source and I have before me . . .

SHRI N. PATRA (Orissa): Unscrupulous elements can make electoral alliances with the DMK.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: What I am saying is true. While an attempt was made in Udumalpet area on the life of Mr. C. N. Annadurai, here in Delhi, in the Capital City, what is happening is worth noting. Under the very nose o'f our Home Minister, Mr. Nanda, a strange and evil thing had taken place yesterday. Mr. Kamaraj the All India Congress Committee President, was at his home. Yesterday, when there were disturbances in New Delhi, his home was attacked and set fire to. But the Congress President, Mr. Kamaraj, was" unable to do anything and had to let himself safely in-

side a room, bolting it from inside. A DMK worker by name Kodandapani. on hearing this....

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN (Andhra Pradesh): You mean that Mr. Nanda arranged it?

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: Under the very nose of Mr. Nanda this thing happened in New Delhi yesterday to a high dignitary such as the Congress President himself. This has not happe ned to anybody. I do not know what Mr. Nanda was doing. Was he attend ing to his Sadachar Samithi's business or was he attending to his Home Ministry affairs when Mr. Kamaraj's life was in danger? His rooms were set Are to, his furniture was broken, his house was entered into by a mob. There was no one to protect him. A DMK worker by name Kodandapani came to know about it; he rushed to the place and practically took him and safely left him in another place.

SHRI RAJNARAIN: The Prime Minister went there and called at that place. Nandaji was also with him.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: Later he visited that house. Anyway, when an attempt is being made in Madras by the Congress people on the life of Mr. C. N. Annadurai, here their own leader, Mr. Kamaraj, is being saved by a DMK worker. This [s what is hap-pening in this country.

So, violence is not confined only to the student community. It is spreading everywhere like an epidemic. Something must be done. Who is to do that? The Government must do that. But the Government has failed in its duty. Government cannot infuse confidence among the students or the people at large. The Government has miserably failed. I do not have any grouse against any individual Minister.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: May I give you a little information? It was not only that DMK man but a young man called Ambi his cook, who is lying wounded in my house now. He


received several injuries on his body and he protected Mr. Kamaraj. So do not make it appear that only a DMK man was on the spot. There were also other people defending him.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: With all respect to my friend, Mr. Ramchan-dran, may I submit that Ambi, his cook, was attacked? In spite of the fact that he was unwell all these people were attacking him; he had recently an operation performed on his sto-mach and he was incapable of protecting himself. He lay flat on the ground and they entered the house. And on hearing that, the DMK worker by name Kodandapani rushed to him and knocked at the door.

SHRI G. RAMACHANDRAN: I am only saying, share the honours between the two.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: My time is limited. You are an esteemed Member and you should not interrupt me. Then what happened? He went and knocked at the door. Mr. Kamaraj refused to open it thinking that the hooligans had come. Then he started to speak with him in Tamil. He opened the door. He dragged him and put him in another place. So, violence is spreading everywhere.

AN HON. MEMBER: He is giving out a story.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: This is what had happened. The wonder and pity is that these Members coming from Madras and who share the glory of Mr. Kamaraj and swear to be his loyal friends do not know the incident. I am pointing out what has happened to their own leader. My point is not Delhi or Madras. My point is that this Government has failed to maintain law and order in this country, that this Government has failed to infuse con-fidence and moral into the people and that this Government has lost its claim to be in power because of its lack of a stern policy. So this Government must give place to a National Government. I do not know who forms the National Government. But

it must step in. If a National Government does not step in now, I do not know what is going to happen to this country. The country will go to . . .

SHRI T. V. ANANDAN (Madras): Wait till February, 1967. We will teach you a lesson.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY; I am also eagerly looking forward to the Day, the day when we will not only defeat the Congress but will also celebrate the day of deliverance because we will have been then delivered from you.

Thank you, Madam.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I am grateful to

the hon. mover of this Motion because we have got a chance to discuss a vital national subject and I hope that the discussion will be conducted with a democratic and progressive outlook and not in a spirit of conservatism or traditionalism in the matter. As I discuss what is called the student unrest in the country, I have in mind the many students who have died as a result of police firing in the course of the last few weeks, perhaps months or so. I have also in mind the six thousand or more students who have been arrested after they were assaulted by the police. Many of them are still languishing behind prison bars. That is a big thought that we have in our minds. It is pointless to make much of destruction of property. No one likes destruction. But when I see teachers beaten up by the police in the campus of the Universities, when I see our students being shot down in the streets like street dogs, when I see them whishked away into prisons, these young flowers of our society, I think something has gone basically wrong with those people whose responsibility it is to look after the younger generation, read them with kindness and attention and help them

405 Motion re. widespread [RAJYA SABHA J unrest among students 406

[Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] in coming up as good citizens of our country. Therefore, my condemnation goes to this Government.

The Government is primarily res ponsible for what they call student unrest. Madam Deputy Chairman, as the unrest broke out, as they call it— I do not call it unrest—some time ago when Parliament was not in session, they initially at the Centre wanted to treat it as a law and order problem. You will remember that the Union Home Minister immediately summon ed, not the Vice-Chancellors or edu cationists, but Inspectors-General of Police to have consultations with them and find a solution to the pro blem. Instructions were sent to the various States to treat this matter as a law and order problem, treat the students harshly, subject them to police terrorism and violence, invade Universities and do as they like. That is what has happened. Only later on it dawned upon them that this problem was not a law and order problem. Even so, the Home Minister and his men-—I think the Home Minister is on the way out, but that is a differ ent matter—did not consider it neces sary to own the mistake up and say that it was the basic socio-economic problem projected into the world of our education, and that such a problem could be tackled

only with the willing co-operation of the teachers and students and their representatives. Hence there should be meetings of these people. Nothing of the sort was done.

At the same time you will have noted from the newspapers that according to their own problems in the various States the Chief Ministers started making statements one after another. The Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister made a statement accusing the Jana Sangh because perhaps he thought that Jana Sangh was the major challenge to him. In my State, in West Bengal, Mr. PrafuPa Sen, the Chief Minister, accused the left parties and the Communist Parties as the

source of the trouble. In Uttar Pradesh Mrs. Sucheta Kripalani, who perhaps does not know her mind well, accused, again, the Communists I the student trouble. Therefore, they introduced politics in this manner into a problem which was worrying us all and for which we were seeking a solution. For this again the responsibility rests with them. It was surprising that the problem that was in-tensely educational was being tackled by the Union Home Minister and the Education Minister was not much in the picture. I know he was ill that time. But there was, I believe, the Deputy Education Minister or somebody else. They should have stepped out on to the scene and taken matters in their hands and should have been in the forefront of the affair. But it was the Home Minister, the Inspectors-General of Police and other people, who had no locus standi in the matter of education or even in the political sphere, who began to dabble in a problem which was certainly not theirs. That in itself was a provocation to the student community.

Now, Madam Deputy Chairman, as I said before, the student problem today is essentially a socio-economic problem projected into the world of education. Its solution, therefore, must be found in tackling the problem at its root. Undoubtedly certain incidents have taken place which nobody would support. But then we are dealing with a problem and we shou'd go to the root of the problem. As far as our student community is concerned, it is an excellent community of which we are proud. I congratulate the student community of this country that braved the police and firings and stood by its rights against the formidable ruling class and its State machinery. The country would not be worth living in had our enlightened younger generation submitted to the mounting tyranny, injustice, arrogance and insolence of those who are at the top of authority. Therefore, T think the students


deserve our congratulations because herein, I see the future of our country. If the student community were to be seen submissive and submitting meekly to the present regime 1 would have doubted the future of the gems of the nation. Hence I think the student community deserves our congratulations.

Well, the lives that have been lost we shall not regain. But let us see at least that neither the lives of the students nor their future are lost as a result of the policies which the Gov-ernment pursue. The educational policies of the Government need radical orientation.. In fact it is an educational policy which is biased in favour of the propertied classes, upper classes an education policy which discounts the children of poverty who today in free India are naturally hungering for higher education. Our institutions of learning should be open for them, for the workers, peasants and other sections of the toiling people, the makers of our wealth and the nation who want to send their children for higher learning. Bias should be in favour of them. Unfortunately the very physical picture of our education, leave alone its guiding inspiration, would indicate that this educational policy and the management of our education under this regime is one that is loaded in favour of the upper classes and prejudiced, or biased against those who are in the lower rungs of our socio-economic life.

Well, about 6 crores of students are in our colleges today. Are they in-disciplined? They are as disciplined, as honourable, as dignified as any other decent section of the community. Incidents take place. Incidents take place even in the A.I.C.C. meetings. Incidents take place even within the Cabinet circle. Worse incidents take place when big Congress Ministers and others supposed to be setting an example before the younger generation quarrel over tickets and produce, as in Andhra, two or three lists of candidates and then abuse each other. Now, therefore, let us go into the pro-

blem. Here the problem is one which has to be tackled qualitatively. We have reached a stage when no quantitative solutions will do. When I say quantitative solution, I do not have in mind larger number of schools and colleges. Undoubtedly they are necessary. But mere adding to the number will not do. The outlook has got to change. Education must be given a scientific, technical bias. More of such institutions as can impart scientific and technical education should be opened for our student community. They want to step in with the marching times. Humanities are very important. But as the nation is remarking itself, as the civilisation is progressing, as industrial, technological developments are taking place opening new vistas for our young generation, naturally our young boys and girls expect that they should be partners in this remaking of this new society. Hence they clamour for betjter opportunities, for technological and scientific education. Do we have enough of it? No. We are wedded to it but it is far below our needs.

Not only that, education must be given high ideals. These ideals are democratic ideals, secular ideals. A young generation cannot be taken as educated unless it is enthused with certain great idealism, unless it is given some purpose in life, some vision, something to prepare themselves for or something they should look ahead. Well, have we given those things? The Congress regime I find is degrading our cultural life, degrading our education. They are darkening the ideological prospect before the young generation, throwing them into confusion, disappointment and frustration all along the line. Naturally our young generation suffers from lack of ideological direction. When I say ideological direction, I do not mean it in a partisan sense. In the days of the British it was a fight against the British which made our young generation and the student community to educate their minds, to equip them spiritually. What are we giving them

[Shri Bhupesh Gupta.J toaay? We talk about socialism before our younger generation but bund monopoly capitalism. We talk against corruption in our public speeches—as iar as these gentlemen are concerned —but indulge in Aminchand Pyarelal and Mundhra deals. What the student community is to learn from them? They are setting not only dual examples, they are setting eminently bad examples and that is degrading to some extent the cultural make-up of our student community. Well, still the student community is standing against all these odds. Therefore I say that we should consider all these matters also. Even Mr. Chagla in. his statement has said about inadequacies and so on. Do we have enough schools and colleges? We do not have. Yet, whenever a Minister likes a house or some big people like a house, we get a house made at once. Monies are found. Whenever we think that an emergency demands an increase of our Budget by Rs. 400 crores, there is no dearth of money but if education were to be treated as a supremely urgent pressing national subject could we not find the money? Certainly we could but we do not wish to find it because the capitalist class and the people who are running the Govern-ment on their behalf consider that education should be given a back seat, should be given only such assistance that is needed to find some personnel for the bureaucracy or for some of the industries. That again is utterly wrong. Money can be found and here we can give very many examples. Cement and steel are being utilised with the help of the Government for building palaces for the rich people. Go round Delhi and see how many big buildings are coming so that our rich ones could live there and yet we find in Delhi our young students and boys and girls coming from the poorer classes living in a horrible condition, studying under shamianas. Why that spectacle should be before us, to the shame of all of us. I ask the Government. Therefore money has to be found and can be found. Hostel accommodation is absolutely inadequate.

It has become prohibitive even for the middle income group people. How many people can send their children for education when the hostel charges and educational charges come to Rs. 150 with the rising prices and no rise in the wages and salaries? Nobody can.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gupta, you will give way to the Minister, Mr. T. N. Singh to make a statement on the Calling Attention Notice.

CALLING ATTENTION TO A MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

DEMAND FOR STEEL PLANT AT VISAKHA-PATNAM—contd.

THE MINISTER OF IRON AND STEEL (SHRI T. N. SINGH): Government's thinking in regard to the pattern of steel production during the Fourth Plan is firstly an expansion of the existing plants and the putting up of one integrated steel plant going up to 1.7 million tonne production at Bo-karo with a possibility of its expansion later. A provision has been made or preliminary work on new sites to form the nucleus of facilities which will be developed into full-fledged steel plants later.

Government's basic objectives are the best utilisation of available resources in the national interest, dispersal of industry for the greatest possible development of all regions and the spreading of employment oppor-tunities throughout the country. The Government of India are aware of the widespread desire amongj .and the aspirations of, the people of Andhra Pradesh, Mysore and Madras to have steel plants located suitably in their areas to utilise iron ore deposits found in these areas or nearby. In a democratic set-up such as we have in India it is obvious that the wishes of the people will be fully taken into account in making decisions. The Prime Minister has already said so in

409 Calling Attention [ RAJYA SABHA ] of urgent public 410 to a matter importance

Hyderabad when questioned on the. location of future steel plants in India.

It must be realised that a decision on the location of future steel plants is a very complex matter involving a number of economic, technical and other considerations. I would appeal to Members of the House and to the public in general to have patience and to give an opportunity to Government to consider all the factors involved in a dispassionate and objective but, nevertheless, sympathetic way. The leaders of the people and the party to which I have the privilege of belonging will not deny justice to any part of the country while acting completely in the national interest.

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: Madam, I am rather surprised at the statement. Wisdom has not yet dawned on the Government. Mr. C. Subramaniam, in 1963, wrote a letter to the then Chief Minister of Andhra . . .

SHRI A. D. MANI (Madhya Pradesh) : A private letter.

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: Not a private letter.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): Whatever it was, it was a letter.

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: Mr. San-jiva Reddy announced about that letter in the Assembly in 1963 and then in 1964 that a Consortium was appointed to go into this. You have received the report as long back, about two years back. When. Mr. Lal Baha-dur Shastri visited Visakhapatnam, he gave an assurance in December 1965 . . .

SHRI T. N. SINGH: What assurance?

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: . . .that the 5th Steel Plant will be located in Visakhapatnam.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Assurance to that effect.

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: The present Prime Minister, when she visited Visakhapatnam on 25-6-66, in reply to a memorandum submitted to her said: 'There is no argument against the location of the 5th Steel Plant at Visakhapatnam. These are the words she used. She repeated the same thing at Hyderabad. You may take refuge behind the niceties of grammar or the twists of the English language but she was speaking to the masses of the people. They do not understand these things. They thought that since 1963 you yourselves told them that they were going to get the steel plant—their aspirations were aroused—the steel plant was coming. Very recently, in her letter to the Chief Minister . . .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What is the question?

SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: I want to explain because he did not say anything in the statement. She said:

"I am anxious to give a positive response in the matter. What has stood in the way is not any lack of will but the fact that the prospect of external aid is dim. However, I have to-day set up a small Cabinet Sub-Committee to look into the matter on most urgent basis so that we can make an early announcement, which I hope, will be satisfactory to you."

This was published in "The Deccan Chronicle" of 2nd November. On the next day, on 3rd November, it was published in box:

"The Cabinet Sub-Committee appointed to assess the various State claims regarding the location of the Fifth Steel Plant in the Public Sector has reportedly preferred Visakhapatnam to other sites. But it has stipulated that the work will be taken up only when funds are available in the Fourth Plan. Another recommendation of the Sub-Committee is that if resources permit pig iron plants should be established at Hospet and Salem so

411 Calling Attention [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] of urgent public 412 to a matter importance

[Shri P. K. Kumaran,] that they provide the nucleus for the sixth and seventh Steel Plants."

Now the Government has not contra-dicied this report. It was published in all the papers as the decision of the Sub-Committee. That has not been contradicted. What has stood in the way of the Government since? They are not asking that it should come now, only that when you are going to establish a Steel Plant it should come to Visakhapatnam. Having aroused the hope of the people since the last 3 or 4 years what stands in the way of giving an undertaking that it will come there. I want to know that.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Do you want all of them to ask questions?

SHRI T. N. SINGH: I wonder how I can reply to these long counter-statements. If you permit questions only. Madam, it will be easier for me to deal with them. Let there be specific pointed questions and I shall cer-tainly try to answer them, but it is very difficult to cover long statements like Mr. Kumaran's.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You get the essence from the statements. Let me proceed to ask the questions. Now I was in. Visakhapatnam and, in fact, I travel ed with Mr. Brahmananda Reddy by the same plane from Visakhapatnam, and I got the impression that the Union Government had given a kind of assurance and that an announcement for the location in favour of Visakhapatnam would he made, and that is the reason why Mr. T. Brahmananda Reddy went to persuade Mr. Amrut Rao to give up his fast. Now in a public statement Mr. Amrut Rao says that this is what Mr. Brahmananda Reddy told him. From my talk with Mr. Brahmananda Reddy —I travelled bv the same plane—I got also the impression that Mr. Brahmananda Reddy had been, told or was given to understand by the Centre that a favourable declaration or announcement would be made in a daT

or two. Now, Madam Deputy Chairman, I wou.d like to know why the Government is vacillating in this matter specially when the matter hud been gone into and a communication was sent, alter proper enquiry by Mr. C. Subramaniam, who was in the Steel Ministry in 1963, to Mr. Sanjiva Reddy, the then Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh, that Visakhapatnam would get the thing. And then Mr. Sanjiva Reddy made an announcement to that effect on the floor of the Assembly based on that from the Union Minister to him. Later on, the whole thing had been talked about time and again. Mr. Sanjiva Reddy himself appointed an expert commission under the Consortium to go into the matter and choose one name out of the five sites he had referred to the Consortium commission. The choice of the Consortium fell on Visakhapatnam. That was also known. Later on, Mr. Shastri, our late Prime Minis ter, went there, and he said that the opinion of the expert committee would not be lightly treated. It meant a kind of assurance to that effect, to the effect that it would be implemented. Then, well, what had been said by Shrimati Indira Gandhi is also there. Now I should like to know why everything is being washed away. Now even we are told that there is no money. The demand of Andhra is not that, is not, "Give the plant here and now irrespective of the resources position." They only say, "Implement your assurance. Give us an announcement that the location of the fifth steel plant will be made in Visakhapatnam as and when funds are available." This is their position.

Now may I refer in this connection to the Planning Commission? Does the Minister not know that the Planning Commission, well, the Commission or somebody, say, a Sub-committee on Mines or something under the Planning Commission went into this matter? They are also in the Plan papers; in the Formulation of the Fourth Plan there is mention of a steel plant of 1.5 million tonnes cana-

413 Calling Attention [ RAJYA SABHA J 0/ urgent public 414 to a matter importance

415 Calling Attention [ 8 NOV. 1966 ] oj urgent public 416 to a matter importance

city provided for, coming after Uokaro, naturally the fifth steel plant in the public sector. So from that lime on they had been pressing in the Claiming Commission and elsewhere the claim of Visakhapatnam for a steel plant. But now we find that the i'ourth Five-Year Plan does not contain any such thing in the way it had been treated before. It just provides for a preliminary expenditure of Rs. 80 crores or so on new plants. There-tare, the Government stood committed publicly, publicly in Parliament also but indirectly, and certainly before the Andhra people, that they should get the steel plant. Now suddenly some people came in. the way and they are not getting. Now therefore I would like to know why the pledge is not being honoured. Does he not know that Andhra Pradesh has got a very big labour force, perhaps the fourth big labour force in. the country?

SHRI ARJUN ARORA (Uttar Pradesh) j Why not the first three?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Just a minute. Please do not disturb me. It has got a labour force of about 17 crores or so; it is the fourth biggest, after U.P., Bombay and Bihar. But there the per capita investment under the auspices of the Panning Commission is the lowest, a State industrially backward, a State where, in many ways, regional disparities are glaring to the prejudice of Andhra. On, the merits of the case they had been demanding it. After that a movement was started and the Government is now trying to suppress the movement and 24 people have been killed in the process. Madam Deputy Chairman. I was in Andhra in those days when the movement was going on. It was absolutely universal.

SHRI ARJUN ARORA: Were you responsible?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: It was absolutely universal. They talk about democracy. All parties including the Congress Party were in the movement. I was in. Visakhapatnam and in other

par is of Andhra. All parties together demanded, 'Implement that pledge. Give us only an announcement to that effect." Now I find they are brushing aside sweepingly this very legitimate demand of the people of Andhra, also, on the contrary, mobilising armed forces and other weapons of repres-sion for further use against them having already killed 24 of them. I charge the Government that they have introduced sectional and party polities in this matter.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: The hon. Member has spoken for five minutes and fifty seconds.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I charge the Government of breach of faith to the peop'e of Andhra. I charge your Government of introducing factional and party considerations in this matter.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is the question still being asked? Have you not yet finished? This is Calling-Attention Notice and you must ask questions. You cannot charge the Government.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Why does the Government behave like this?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You may charge the Government on some o:her occasion.

SHRl BHUPESH GUPTA: Last question. Why is this Government behaving in this wholly hostile and indecent manner with the people of Andhra, and Andhra Pradesh as a whole? I should like to know from this Government.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That will do. Mr. Murahari. Please be as brief as you can be.

SHRI G. MURAHARI (Uttar Pradesh) : Madam Deputy Chairman. . .

SHRI T. N. SINGH: I want to know: are we going to have questions on the statement made, or are we going to have counter-statements from i hon. Members?

417 Calling Attention [ RAJYA SABHA ] 0/ urgent public 418 to a matter importance

SHRI G. MURAHARI: I am asking questions and direct questions.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY (Madras): After this may I also be permitted to put questions?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Those whose names are there have first claim.

SHRI G. MURAHARI: Madam Deputy Chairman, I would like to know wnether it is not a fact that the States of Andhra Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh are two of the States in India which have been discriminated against repeatedly both in the matter of industrialisation and in the matter of electricity, and also in the matter of literacy and in every other respect, and that these two States have been treated badly by the Centre. When the income ratio 0f Andhra Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh is Rs. 250 and the literacy percentage is below 1.5 per cent in each case, whereas in other coastal districts like Madras it is Rs. 540.5 and 5 per cent, respectively. I would like to know why the Centre has not thought it fit to make straightway an announcement that the fifth steel plant will be located at Visakhapatnam? In spite of an this only had the various sub-committees —recommended its location at Viskha-patnam but also the Consortium had gone into this question and they had also given a report in favour of Visakhapatnam? In spite of all this the Government has been dilly-dallying with this question, and even today, after such a mass movement in Andhra, where some 25 people have been killed and thousands of people have been injured, and still there is the movement going on, the Government comes out with a statement which is absolutely meaningless and which does not convey anything. Government could just as well have shut up and said nothing. They n.eed not have made the statement at ail- What is this statement?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Ask the question.

SHRI G. MURAHARI: I want to know what the intention of the Government is. Are they going to locate the fifth steel plant at Visakhapatnam or not? Let them give a categorical answer. That is what is wanted here. You may say that the finances are not there, that the foreign aid is not there. Now all those are conditional. Leave aside ' all those conditions. When you get the foreign aid, when you get the finances, are you going to locate the fifth steel plant at Visakhapatnam or not? This is the plain question that is being asked and we want a straight answer.

SHRI Y. A. REDDY (Andhra Pradesh) : May I know whether the report of the Consortium is the basis for deciding the steel plant?

SHRIMATI C. AMMANNA RAJA (Andhra Pradesh): May I know from the Minister whether there has been consistency in the statements made by the Minister and by the Prime Minister herself, consistency in the statements made by one at one time, and by another or by others at other times? From the letter which has been read out by Mr. Kumaran, it is obvious that she was wanting to give a positive answer and so a sub-committee had been appointed. Even that was

not necessary because the Consortium recommendation was there and she wanted to know by appointing the sub-committee where it should be located. So the whole question was reopened again as if nothing had gone before.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now you are also making a statement.

SHRIMATI C. AMMANNA RAJA: Is it fair to play with the lives of the people, as if we are mechanically driven, as if we are machines? Should there be not a human approach? What is the use of merely blaming the people saying, "It is not right that such an agitation should take place, that such vandalism should take place." Unfortunately it is taking place much against our will. But should we not


have some consideration for them at least by coming out with a statement which is fair to the demand of Andhra?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gurupada Swamy, please be brief.

SHRI M. S. GURUPADA SWAMY (Mysore): Madam, I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether it is fact that the consortium had very limited terms of reference. They were only asked to survey the areas in South India and they were not permitted to survey the areas in the north ,and the report that the consortium has submitted refers to only such areas as South India and does not take into consideration the areas in the north. Secondly I would like to know, arising out of this very important thing, whe-ther some of the areas in the north are mere suitable, more economical, for starting the steel plant. The third question I want to ask is whether the location of such big plants will he decided in the future on purely techno-economic considerations or whether they are going to be decided as a result of sentiments or emotions expressed by . . .

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: What sentiments, what emotions?

SHRI M. S. GURUPADA SWAMY: I did not interrupt you and I expect you to behave in the same way. (Interruptions) I am putting the question to the Minister; I am not asking you. You are not the Minister.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please ignore the interruptions; you ask your question.

SHRI M. S. GURUPADA SWAMY: I am asking this question. My question is whether the location of the industry is going to 'be decided in future on the toasis of sentiments and emotions expressed by people in certain areas?

(Several Members stood up)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The whole House cannot ask questions on a Calling Attention Notice. Mr. Govinda Reddy.

SHRI M. GOVINDA REDDY (Mysore): From the' statement it appears that no decision has yet been taken about the establishment of this steel plant. May I know whether the Government is examining the question de novo and going to decide the question on merits and not on pressure tactics?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think . . .

(Several hon. Members wanted to ask Questions)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: May I request the House? You will continue to ask questions but let the Minister answer the questions already asked before he forgets half the things said on the floor.

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN (Andhra Pradesh): I want to know . . .

(Interruptions)

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Let Mr. Akbar Ali Khan ask.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, you are not . . .

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I am only helping hi'm.

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: With your permission Madam, I want to ask the Minister this. Is there any sanctity in the promises that his predecessors gave that the late Prime Minister and other Prime Ministers gave or has he independent charge and whenever he can, he can change his mind? That is my first question.

My second question is, is there any other example where expert opinion has been given in favour of a certain place and for over two years the

[Shri Akbar Ali Khan.] Central Government is sitting over tt, sleeping over it, and not coming to a decision?

SHRI M. P. SHUKLA (Uttar Pradesh): I will tell you the example.

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: In this case I want to say this. It is not at all a question of sentiments; it is not a question of any rowdyism. The only question here is that merit is ignored and that also when the Anglo-American consortium has given expert opinion and when it has been said— I won't repeat—that according to the expert opinion the Government of India will come to its decision. Even after that you do not do anything. Lastly the Cabinet Sub-Committee appointed by the Prime Minister gives a decision which is broadcast and on that assurance we go and beg the people not to agitate and we ask them to break the fast. And then the Minister comes and makes a state-ment which is vague and absolutely non-committal. la it fair? I ask the Minister, is it fair? If he is a man, not a Minister, but a person representing a certain State will he accept that position? Will he not agitate? I am not saying as man or woman. I would like to know what would be his feeling and how he would react. I am one of those who told them that this is an all-India question. I told them: I do not want you to introduce Andhra or Mysore or any other State but when injustice is done I want to know what remedy is there for it.

SHRI KOTA PUNNAIAH (Andhra Pradesh): I would like to know from the hon. Minister what exactly came in the way of the establishment of the fifth steel plant at Visakhapatr.am after obtaining the technical report and ascertaining the possibilities, whether it was politics or economics.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: I would like to ask the Minister whether ho is aware of the fact that his predeces-

sor, Mr. Subramaniam, when he the Steel Minister, gave a categorical assurance to the people of Madras that the fifth plant would come to Salem and on the basis of that assu-rance. . . . (Interruptions) He said so; I can prove it. On the basis of that promise of Mr. Subramaniam, the then Steel Minister, the Madras Government started doing pilot work there and even today the Ma Chief Minister, Mr. Bhaktavatsala: assuring the Madras . . .

(Interruptions).

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:. Order, Order. Let him finish.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: On the basis of the assurance given by Mr. Subramaniam the Madras Government started doing the preliminary work at Salem and ever, today Mr. Bhakta-vatsalam is making statements in the Madras Assembly that the Salem project is going to be there. And lastly a deputation came from Salem and that deputation was headed by our erstwhile Member, Shri T. S. Pattabhi-raman. The Deputation waited upon the hon. Prime Minister, Mrs. Indira Gandhi, Mr. Asoka Mehta and some of the Members of the Planning Commission and also Mr. Kamaraj. It is reported to have been told that it is a certainty that the Salem plant is coming and later. Madam, the Delegation went back to Madras and on reaching Madras issued a statement that appeared on the front page, columns 4, 5 and 6 of the Hindu, prominently, saying that the Salem plant is going to come there. I am asking the hon. Minister to say categorically whether they are going to give the Salem plant or whether they are going to dupe everybody as they are duping the Vizag people, the Andhra people and others.

SHRI M. V. BHADRAM (Andhra Praiesh): Madam, I come from Visakhapatnam where 10 people have been killed but I am not .^oing tnto that aspect now. The hon. Minister

421 Calling Attention to [ RAJYA SABHA ] of urgent public 422 a matter importance

has stated that the decision on the location is a very complex matter because economic, technical and other things are involved. Is it a fact that Mr. T. N. Singh has written a letter to Mr. T. Viswanathan? When he asked the Minister what the comparable cost of the big plant and a small plant was the Minister replied that no assessment has so far been made; is it a fact or not? The second question is, a letter is reported to have been written by the Prime Minister to the Chief Minister of Andhra State and it is reported to have been shown to Mr. Amrit Rao before he broke his fast.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: He himself told me.

SHRI M. V. BHADRAM: H2 told me also when I met him in the aerodrome. Now, what are the contents of the letter of the Prime Minister? The third point is the Cabinet Sub-committee has gone into this question and some reports have appeared. What are the recommendations of the Cabinet Sub-committee on this question? These three points I want the Minister of Steel to clarify.

SHRI NIREN GHOSH (West Bengal): Is it true—it appeared in the papers—that you were going to make an announcement that the fifth steel plant would be located at Visakhapatnam and then suddenly the Prime Minister made a statement that there was no firm commitment? At one point did you decide that the fifth steel plant would be located at Visakhapatnam and then you went

back on the decision a day or two after? Is it a fact? Please note it. Is it because of personal politics between Andhra and the demands of Mysore and Madras? If so, what is the difficulty in the way of the Government saying that the fifth, sixth and seventh steel plants would be located in the southern belt, whenever they can be located?

SHRI A. D. MANI: From the statement it appears that Visakha-patnam seems to be the only party to the dispute about the location of the steel plant. In regard to this matter the Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh issued a statement some days ago pointing out that if it is being considered because the people of Andhra agitated for the location of a steal plant at Visakhapatnam, the people of Madhya Pradesh also can do the same for the location of the plant at Baila-dilla. There is a good deal of feeling on this matter that Madhya Pradesh is being neglected and I want the Minister to give us an assurance. (Interruptions.) I should like the Minister to give us an assurance that not only techno-econcmic considerations would be taken into account, but also strategic considerations. We cannot locate a steel plant in the coastal belt of Andhra because Visakhapatnam is exposed to naval-assault. We think it is necessary that the steel plant should be located in the interior of the country, at Bailadilla, and I would like the Minister to answer that.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Misra, please be very brief.



SHRI LOKANATH MISRA (Orissa): At the outset I would like hon. Members to know my mind. I am very •much in favour of the Visakhapatnam steel plant, tout the point is whether it is Visakhapatnam or Madras or Hospet or anywhere else, the raw material would be had fsom Orissa. It is a very serious thing. I would like the hon. Minister to reply to this. The Expert Committee that visited from Japan probably suggested the location of the steel plant only in Konai in Orissa. That was an Expert Committee. Here sits the Cabinet Subcommittee. They are supposed to be experts on everything. If they decide in favour of having a steel plant in Visakhapatnam, or a steel plant in Hospet or in favour of a steel plant in Salem—I am for these steel plants . . .

SHRI A. D. MANI: What about Bailadilla?

SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: Particularly what I vant to emphasise is that the source of the raw material is Konai which is in Orissa. I would like the hon. Minister to reply to this particular question whether the Expert Team suggested the location of the plant in Konai itself and nowhere else.

(Hon. Members stood up)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I cannot go on extending this Calling Attention Notice. You yourselves know that we should be within reasonable limits. Mr. Mulka Govinda Reddy.

SHRI MULKA GOVINDA REDDY (Mysore): The Minister has made a very bald statement. We have accepted a planned programme and we have appointed a Planning Commission. We have gone through three Plans and the Government should have the courage to tell us that on the basis of availability of raw materials, on the basis of the needs of the society and the needs of the country, the country is progarmmed to have steel plants, fifth, sixth and seventh,

in the places mentioned or in the States mentioned and they should have the courage to come forward and 'make a statement. He is shirking his responsibility for taking a deci-sion, may be because of some pressure or other. He should come forward and make a statement that the fifth, sixth and seventh steel plants will be located in the localities or in the States mentioned.

MISS MARY NAIDU (Andhra Pradesh): May I know from the hon. Minister of Steel, even from the economic point of view, whether it was not decided that Visakhapatnam would be the best place? That is my first question. Secondly, could you kindly listen to me? You stressed on the point of national interest. In regard to the industries that are now existing, on what national interests were they given to the different States? Andhra is very much backward industrially plus there is the fact that Andhra has so much of labour without any job. There is no other industry at all in Andhra except agricultural labour. Please excuse my saying so, when it comes to agricultural labour, agriculturists and the implementation of the national Plan, you are not prepared to take over the Nagarjuna Sagar dam. The national interest does not come into the picture at all. I would like to know why that stepmotherly treatment is being given to Andhra.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now the Minister.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: Madam, there have been a spate of statements. (Interruption). A number of statements have been made and also assertions about what this and that person said. I do not want to go into any of those questions for the very simple reason that I have not come across any definite, categorical assurance from anybody as referred to in the previous statements of hon. Members.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Why not?

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: The Cabinet Sub-committee has said it.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now you must listen to him.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: I have the highest respect for my friend, Mr. Akbar AH Khan. He is one of the most sober persons.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Do not flatter him.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: But I am really rather horrified to find him excited about this. I expect of him to apply the same cool judgment to which he is accustomed and which is so natural to him.

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: Very good of you, hut you do not know how they feel about it in the South.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You have humiliated people like Mr. Akbar Ali Khan.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: Mr. Bhupesh Gupta spoke for 6 minutes and 20 seconds while putting his question and yet he is not satisfied. He can speak for another five minutes and I shall sit down.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Not at all. You better say that Visakha-patnam will get it.

(Interruptions)

SHRI T. N. SINGH: Has his speech ended?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: No, it has not.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. Singh.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: I think it is improper. I think he must have some sense of propriety in 'making such statements. I strongly object to such accusations.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I will repeat it.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: What do you repeat?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I repeat that it is incapable of decent, democratic, honourable thinking.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: Madam, one can >be discourteous but it takes a lot of good breeding and culture . . .

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You had culture? You gave assurance to the people of Andhra and violate it and you talk about culture. You shoot 24 people there. Do not talk about culture. You are talking of breeding. What breeding have you got? I know it. In Andhra Pradesh, I have seen a five-year old child being shot in Visakhapatanam. You talk about culture and breeding.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, order.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: No personal attacks on individuals.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I am concerned with public policy. Madam, in Visakhapatanam a child of five was shot dead, and he talks about culture.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think there should be no interruptions when he speaks. Order, order.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Mr. Singh, you are a good man, but as Minister of Iron and Steel • * » »

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You please sit down.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Should these people talk about culture?

1290 RSD—7.


(Interruption)


SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: A five-year old child was silenced to death.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If the House is not in a mood to listen, I shall adjourn the House. You must listen to his reply without interruption.

SHRI M. GOVINDA REDDY: Madam, the words uttered by Mr. Bhupesh Gupta * * * * should be expunged.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That would go out.

(Interruptions)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Do you want him to answer the question you have put? Then you 'must take your seat.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I must say whether he knows . . .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Whatever Mr. Bhupesh Gupta has said now should not be taken down.

SHRI K. K. SHAH (Maharashtra): May I request Mr. Bhupesh Gupta that he should not make personal attack?

SHRI G. MURAHARI: He has not made a personal attack. It was an attack on Congress culture, (interruption)


SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: (Continued speaking)

SHRI T. N. SINGH: Madam, I have already stated that I am very distressed when emotions run high on

****Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

such issues. I think these issues require very calm consideration and a thoughtful mind should be applied to such things. Nobody should object to that. I think we have made a statement which is fairly well-balanced and it represents the position correctly. A reference has been made to the Cabinet Sub-Committee and about the reports which appeared. Hon. Members will recall that I made a statement in the other House that such reports are given out by the press in order to get » definite statement from the Government, They are speculations, in-spired speculations. (Interruption). I do not intend to be caught into that trap. Therefore I would not like to make any statement relating to that report. I am referring to the statement which said in the press . . . (Interruption) I think the hon. Member should allow others to speak. I never interrupted, when he was speaking.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think you should allow the Minister. Otherwise what is the meaning of a call attention notice? You must listen even if it is unpalatable to you.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Am I not entitled to know . . .

SHRI M. P. SHUKLA: They have I put the question. They do not want to listen. In spite of the Minis'er ' replying they do not want to listen. For an hour they have been inter-; rupting.

SHRI T. N. SINGH: I am very much distressed . ..

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I would like to know whether Brahmananda Reddy bluffed or Mrs. Indira Gandhi bluffed

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If this cross talk is going on, there is

I no need for the Minister to give a reply. I am appealing to the House to

! give him a completely silent hearing.


SHRI T. N. SINGH: I have stated, as I said at the very beginning, that the statement covers the whole situation very correctly and properly. It does not need any further amend-ment or addition to that. As for some statements which have been made in regard to this or that person having said this or that thing, I have already seated that these state-ments are not correct. I want to see whether any such categorical statement was at all made. In regard to the Cabinet Sub-Committee to which a reference has been made I have said already that the reports in the press are entirely incorrect. Beyond that I do not want to make any other statement. I am an experienced journalist and I know how such speculations do appear in the press, and I am not going to be caught in that sort of thing. I do not think that is the correct interpretation. The purport of the letter Is entirely misconstrued.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: It all depends on the purport you make.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has not finished.

SHRI G. MURAHARI: It only amounts to this . . .

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: One submission to you . . .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has not finished. Mr. Singh, have you finished?

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE (West Bengal): What are the contents of the letter of the Prime Minister. . .

SHRI T N. SINGH: I do not accept the purport of that letter which the hon. Member has said. I would look into it. (Interruption) Madam, will you permit me to sit down1?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Have you got anything further to answer?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: On a point of order.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think the Members of the opposition are in no mood to let the Minister continue. (Interruption). Order, order. Take your seat, take your seat. No one shall stand up and no one shall interrupt until Mr. Singh has finished whatever reference he makes to letter or newspaper or any other fact that he has.

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: On a point of order.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What is your point of order?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: A document has been referred to, and more than one hon. Member referred to no other authority than the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh. His letter had been received by him. He said this is not the letter. Therefore, I think it is in the interests of the House that the letter which actually has been written to Mr. Brahmananda Reddy should be Had on the Table of the House, and Mr. Brahmananda Reddy has committed a grave impropriety.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is no point of order.

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE: Madam, on a point of order.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What is the point of order?

SHRI A. P. CHATTERJEE: I am seriously raising a point of order. There has been a reference to a letter written by the Prime Minister. The Minister does not deny that letter. The Minister merely says that it is not the purport of that letter. He cannot say that. He has no right to interpret a document. If he admits the existence of the document, he can only produce it, and it is for the House to interpret it . . . (Interruption)



THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No more. Otherwise, I will adjourn the House. Please take your seats. Mr. Singh, have you anything further to add? Any more information you can give on the question?

SHRI T. N. SINGH: For the time being, I shall only refer to the Cabinet Committee. I said, there was nothing like a decision as reported in

the Press. I deny that. Beyond that, I do not want to say anything.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is all right.

The House stands adjourned till 11 00 a.m. tomorrow.

The House then adjourned at twenty two minutes past five of the clock till eleven of the clock on Wednesday, the 9th November, 1966.

— RS—1290 RS—14-3-66—57s..

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