general topics :: paul washer and joel osteen video

General Topics :: Paul Washer and Joel Osteen video

Paul Washer and Joel Osteen video, on: 2007/12/7 15:15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?vb29lMZZ1Ts8) A man centered Gospel...

Yowsers, I thank God for brother Paul Washer. What a contrast to see the true and false Gospel being preached side by side. I highly recommened this video.

In Christ - Jim

Re: Paul Washer and Joel Osteen video - posted by Tears_of_joy, on: 2007/12/7 16:46This is MUST watch.

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/7 17:21Amen

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/8 11:24 OK, we have ministries attacking ministries. now if the attacking ministries get attacked and in turn the attacking ministries attack the ministries attacking the attacking ministries,would not this be the dog chasing its tail?

David

Re: - posted by PaulWest (), on: 2007/12/8 12:45

Quote:-------------------------OK, we have ministries attacking ministries.-------------------------

Yes, you are right. The ministry of light attacking darkness. The proclamation of the truth is an automatic assault on darkness. This is why the battle is always one-sided when the unadulterated truth is proclaimed without fear or shame. This video is a prime example; notice Osteen's name is not even mentioned, though while watching this video one can readilyassociate the light from the dark and "fit the shoe" so to speak. A holy minister is an awful weapon in the hands of God - the Word of God flowing through a sanctified vessel is matchless in power and efficacy - there is never any fight, for the conscience of wicked man is always immediately smitten and condemned.

It really makes no difference what spoken or written objection to truth the liberal theologian may bring; his heart is smitten and defeated even with no outward confession. Therefore, a man who simply preaches the truth with clean hands and pure heart, aligning himself uncompromisingly with the Word of God will always be victorous in combatting darkness, no matter how learned or persuasive or eloquent the enemies of the light may be.

Brother Paul

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Re: - posted by Santana (), on: 2007/12/8 13:19Joel Olsteen was on Larry King not to long ago. Larry King asked him, "If I'm a Muslim or Hindu, will I go to hell?"

Olsteen beat around the bush and kind of compromised saying things like, "Only God can judge." and "I personally believe in Jesus Christ as my savior."

I think that is the one question that seperates the men from the boys. All this to say that Joel Olsteen's book was the NY Times Best seller for x amount of weeks straight.

Call it attacking or not, but Americans are decieved by Olsteen's gospel.

Re: - posted by ZekeO (), on: 2007/12/8 13:29

Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote: OK, we have ministries attacking ministries. now if the attacking ministries get attacked and in turn the attacking ministries attack the ministries attacking the attacking ministries,would not this be the dog chasing its tail?-------------------------No, because they are totally different animals. 8-)

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/8 14:16I think if people need exposing then we should pray and God will direct. Sometimes he will not allow you to say anything,cause he will deal directly with them. If exposing is God then why not do it scripturally? I sense a Hate and disdain in this attacking. Love not hate is to rule us. Is joel wwrong? of course! How much have you prayed? I see a u-tube posted and people celebrating on a brothers body. Where is the love for your brother? I have seen this young man take over his dads ministry from day one. He is so tender hearted and chokes up many times in the pulpit. I know he loves the Lord and he loves Gods people. He is weak in evangelism but strong in encourageing.

My bible encourages me . Does this make encouragement wrong.

David

Re: - posted by FireinmyBones1 (), on: 2007/12/8 15:35I'm in no way a member of the Joel Osteen fan club...just so you know.

However, to pit encouragement (which in Joel's case is not necessarily biblical encouragement) against preaching on the "total depravity" of an unregenerate man is a slightly unbalanced approach. Certainly if you live on Joel Osteens teachings you will DIE! But if you live only off of Paul Washers teachings you will DIE as well. There is a point where we have to move beyond the elementary teachings of repentance. (Heb 6) It is NOT the deeper life and certainly not the pinnacle of Christian experience. Encouragement has it's place in the New Testament church as much as rebuking does. To simply tell a believer constantly that they may not actually be saved and that they are sinful wretches who must "die daily" (which is a horrific misinterpretation of scripture) is to create a culture of navel gazing, hopeless, sick hearted people. People who desperately want to be used by God but who are held in bondage because they have developed an addiction to ONE elementary truth of scripture. I love Paul Washer and have been challenged by some of his teachings. However, my present identity is NOT that of a totally depraved, black hearted sinner. To believe that is to mock the cross and cheapen the sacrifice of Jesus. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying Down with Paul Washer and bring forth the royal diadem for Joel Osteen. I believe Joel Osteen is in great error in his teaching and preaching. However, it is just as much of an error and just as HERETICAL to focus primarily and perpetually on repentance and heart searching. The command to search the heart occurs but a handful of times in the NT and the bulk of Paul's writings teach us to believe on the imputed and imparted righteousness of Jesus Christ. There are just as many (perhaps...) in the body that aredeceived by a morbid fixation on heart searching as there are those deceived by a message of greasy grace. Both are unbalanced. We should not glorify

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one imbalanced teaching in favor of another. Rather we should seek the whole counsel of God which is not happiness and prosperity, but is also not perpetual heart searching and salvation questioning.Just my thoughts.God BlessJeff

Re: - posted by FireinmyBones1 (), on: 2007/12/8 15:51...I hope I did not come across as arrogant in my last post. I am certainly open to correction on this matter. Understand my heart is not one bit into cotton candy preaching. But I am also not into the angry, pseudo-prophet/watchmen wannabee's who tout the message of repentance as THE GOSPEL (meaning the exclusive and only message of the gospel.) Many who jump on the "watchman" bandwagon don't have genuine love for the saints which is a requirement for the TRUE prophetic ministry. They are similar to the watchmen in Song of Solomon 5:7:

7 The watchmen found me as they made their rounds in the city. They beat me, they bruised me; they took away my cloak, those watchmen of the walls!

In this instance the beloved of the King was desperately searching for him as her laziness and self-centered(ness) had previously caused his departure. She realized her error and was now frantically searching for him. When she encountered the watchmen they beat this one most precious to the king and treated her as a criminial. I've found that many who have a genuine prophetic/watchmen calling find themselves falling into this same error. They look at those desperately seeking Jesus and instead of pointing them to Him, they beat them and strip them of their cloaks (the imparted righteousness of Jesus Christ). At least this was what I once did. I speak from experience as a victimizer not a victim. I once operated in this pseud-watchmen mentality, mostly because of immaturity, and trust me, I had alot of bruised people.I think many times in the name of correcting error or bringing balance, we create an error. We find ourselves on such a witch-hunt, however, that we miss the very error we are creating. I truly believe that many in the church are creating great error right now in the name of correcting it. Maybe I'm wrong, but these are just my thoughts on the matter.God bless,Jeff

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/8 16:111Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, andto the doctrine which is according to godliness; 1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife,railings, evil surmisings, 1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Re: Paul Washer and Joel Osteen video, on: 2007/12/8 17:33

I listened to the sound track, and didn't like it at all.

If this is Paul Washer's usual style, I don't like it. I've never listened to one of his sermons, so ... tell me ... does he do anything else?

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To FireinmyBones1,

Thank you for an honest and well-balanced statement, and your willingness to move on to a richer mix in your preaching.

Re: - posted by FireinmyBones1 (), on: 2007/12/8 23:31Is this directed at my comments or general?God BlessJeff


Quote:-------------------------Is this directed at my comments or general?-------------------------It was an acknowlegement of your posts, specifically.

Re: - posted by FireinmyBones1 (), on: 2007/12/9 0:16:) I'm sorry, my bad. I was referring to hmmhmm. God BlessJeff

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/9 1:29

Quote:-------------------------FireinmyBones1 wrote::) I'm sorry, my bad. I was referring to hmmhmm. God BlessJeff -------------------------

If you meant the verses of scripture i posted? then it was not for you,(unless you felt so by the spirit) , i did not "aim" it atyou. Its just I found lately many many people "defending" Osteen and other similar teachers that CLEARLY teaches a perverted gospel and a false Babylonian Christianity.

and i think anyone would do them an eternal gain to run for their life's and warn others from these so called pastors that robes people of Christ and make them focus on "your best life now" instead of your best life in eternity.

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/9 1:46

Quote:-------------------------hmmhmm wrote:Its just I found lately many many people "defending" Osteen and other similar teachers that CLEARLY teaches a perverted gospel and a false Babylonian Christianity.

-------------------------

perverted gospel? I have never in my life seen or hear of anyone that teaches a "perfect" gospel except Jesus Christ an

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d also I truly believe if we "all" did more preaching in the mirror we would worry less about the way others preach. :-)


Quote:-------------------------MrBillPro wrote:

Quote:-------------------------hmmhmm wrote:Its just I found lately many many people "defending" Osteen and other similar teachers that CLEARLY teaches a perverted gospel and a false Babylonian Christianity.

-------------------------

perverted gospel? I have never in my life seen or hear of anyone that teaches a "perfect" gospel except Jesus Christ and also I truly believe if we "all" did more preaching in the mirror we would worry less about the way others preach. :-) -------------------------

you are probably right, but at the same time we cant just ignore that Paul did this in almost everyone of his letters, john did it, peter did it, and Jesus himself exposed wrong, false and perverted teachings. And so should we. I believe it is our responsibility as Christians to EXPOSE the false teachings. And the current condition of western Christianity is because Christians have FAILED in doing this in their FEAR OF MAN and offending anyone and that is why we se so many false teachings, the salt has lost its effectiveness. May we get a greater burden for the love of God and truth. Then we wont mind what people think. I am not speaking as one who has arrived but as one pressing forward by his grace.

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/9 2:04Not going to waste much of my time on these threads anymore it seems like there is one everyday here now and that is why I took a short vacation from here, but if God elected you and others as the Pastor Police carry on soldier, I just wished we could all focus more on encouraging and the lifting up of others in the world this world could use more of it, but some have in in there blood to go in a different direction and that is none of my business.

Re: - posted by Santana (), on: 2007/12/9 23:55

Quote:-------------------------Certainly if you live on Joel Osteens teachings you will DIE! But if you live only off of Paul Washers teachings you will DIE as well. -------------------------

Fireinmybones,

I really like your 1st entry. Well put! It challenged me.

Re: - posted by murdog (), on: 2007/12/10 6:41Linn,

Quote:-------------------------I listened to the sound track, and didn't like it at all. If this is Paul Washer's usual style, I don't like it. I've never listened to one of his sermons, so tell me ... does he do anything else?-------------------------

If you mean anything other than bring the uncompromised word of God, then the answer is no. Mr. Washer's sermons are not the type you can curl up with a nice cup of cocoa and put your feet up. His preaching makes people uncomfortable and it makes people mad. It is so polar opposite to the other garbage that is called preaching we can't help but be offended when we hear it. It tears away all the nice thoughts like "I'm O.K." or "I could be worse".

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It was his preaching that made me realize I was not a Christian just because I said I was one. It was his preaching that made me come to realize I had not repented and that I loved the world more than I loved God.

I thank God for this man's ministry. For his boldness and for his love of the truth.

Linn I truly believe you should listen to some of his sermons in their entirety before deciding.

Murray

Re: - posted by murdog (), on: 2007/12/10 6:48Bill,

Quote:-------------------------But if God elected you and others as the Pastor Police carry on soldier-------------------------

If being part of the Pastor Police is warning sincere brethren about false teachers and exposing their lies, so that when they stand before a Holy God he does not say to them "I never knew you", then I would ask where can I get my badge.

Murray


Quote:-------------------------MrBillPro wrote:Not going to waste much of my time on these threads anymore it seems like there is one everyday here now and that is why I took a short vacation from here,-------------------------

I am very glad brother you are back, I think this is good we have brethren from different backgrounds and beliefs. But wemust be able to challenge our beliefs and doctrines.

Quote:-------------------------but if God elected you and others as the Pastor Police carry on soldier-------------------------,

I do not know how to answer that brother, If i see a man saying something that is against scripture, the whole sum of it, ifi see someone teaching things that can not be found anywhere in church history , that those "streams" that has been viewed as genuine christianty. I will raise my voice. If i did not i would consider my self a hater of my brother. Maybe they will be angry with me or disagree with me. But God will be pleased.

I think it is very wise for myself, and you to. To always have the humble spirit that is ready to say "maybe I am wrong?"

It is possible.... I know I have been wrong many times about my beliefs, but God will reveal and lead us all. And so he has done with me and will continue to do.

Quote:-------------------------I just wished we could all focus more on encouraging and the lifting up of others in the world this world could use more of it, but some have in in there blood to go in a different direction and that is none of my business. -------------------------

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Yes brother I wish the same as you, God has showed me this very recently how much of great importance this is , encouraging the brethren and sisters.... but if we do it at the cost of truth, we compromise and sell out God for a human feeling.

Maybe not as much in their blood as in their spirit? I do not have all the answers brother, but i have been encouraged by Paul Washer, I do not share some of his doctrines,but still he is a needed voice in todays Christianity. I believe we need thousands more with his passion for truth.

And I am looking forward to when we will hear Pastor Joel preach the whole word, not only the good for me stuff, but also the other side, Repentance, hell, judgment, and sin.

I know he dont use some of these words, but i long and pray for all pastors to preach the whole bible no matter peoples feelings.

Faithfulness to God is the most important thing.

and still.....not speaking as one who has arrived, but by Gods grace and great love i press forward.

Re: Paul Washer and Joel Osteen video - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 7:40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?vGc4pclpeau0&featurerelated) the worst thing that can happend to a preacher

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 8:27I thank God for the small handful of people here on SI who get it. Most likely those who have had a personal revival already and are living what others here are only talking about. It was said to me recently how the people here on SI's forum were living above the normal level of modern Christianity. I wonder if that is true, or if we're merely holding more truth yet doing nothing with it outside of what the average American churchgoer does?

I'm sure that I will be painted the bad guy for suggesting such a thing, but do not let that overshadow the reality of this question that we need to ask ourselves.

That soon coming day will reveal all things.

In Christ - Jim

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 8:31Also,

Someone mentioned that you would die on Washers sermons as much as Osteen. It is important to note that on Osteens sermons you will die to the life of Christ and eternal life. On Washers you will die to your selfish, sinful nature by allowing the cross to complete its good work in you.

These are two different types of death. One leads to eternal damnation, one leads to the wedding supper of the Lamb.

In Christ - Jim


Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote:Also,

Someone mentioned that you would die on Washers sermons as much as Osteen. It is important to note that on Osteens sermons you will die to the life of Christ and eternal life. On Washers you will die to your selfish, sinful nature by allowing the cross to complete its good work in you.

These are two different types of death. One leads to eternal damnation, one leads to the wedding supper of the Lamb.

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In Christ - Jim-------------------------

O God please help us here we must seek to truly worship God in Â“spirit and in truthÂ” while realizing that has little to nothing to do with external modes of expression that we fight over (i.e. clapping, instruments, power point, old songs/new songs, order of worship, meeting at the building, Sunday nights,Pastors, etc.). God has been and will continue to be moreconcerned with the condition of our hearts than with our methods (Â”These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.Â”- Is 29:13; Mt 15;8, Mk 7:6).

Jim wrote:On Washers you will die to your selfish, sinful nature by allowing the cross to complete its good work in you.

On Washers you will do only what you want "free will" on "JESUS ONLY" you will die to your selfish, sinful nature by allowing the cross to complete its good work in you.

Washer or Pastor Joel will not save you if any of you listen to this false stuff that Jim said you will surely die, In Gods eyes Pastor Joel and Washer are the same.

You know regardless of what "any" pastor does or says this has always been the about the "only" thing I really disagree with since being a member of Sermon/Index they allow Pastor battering it's not right or fair but I don't own the site or make the rules so I understand. I even got so upset I ask the folks one time that were battering Pastor Joel to post their Pastors name so I could look him up and see if he has any flaws and "NO ONE" not one would ever do that I wonder why? Hypocrites!

You know the really sad thing is I am on a membership committee on an HVAC forum Hvac-Talk and we don't even let folks bash brands over there and over here on a "Christian" site you can bash Pastors? go figure.

I really think this should stop and not be allowed and this place would be a better place for it, most folks at Sermon/Index that bash Pastors there not sincerely doing it for the good of others like they claim, they are doing it for their own self gratification, I sincerely do believe this, but I won't be standing in their shoes on judgement day, Thank God.

Pastor Joel is "MY" pastor and I love him and I am praying for changes at Lakewood but some here don't want to wait onmy prayers to be answered they just write Pastor Joel off "were is their faith I might ask" and continue to bash him, well Iam standing on my faith for Lakewood something that any "GOOD" Christian should do in my shoes, and not let the evil spirits that want to steal-kill-and destroy run me off form my place of worship I love.Put on the full armour of God... For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Eph.6:11-12). God BlessMr. Bill

PS

Greg or Mike if you think I am a little out of line here well you have the right to your opinion but I am sorry I am tired of allthe Pastor bashing because that is all it is. If you feel I need a time out because of my boldness well I am man enough totake it thats ok, but when folks here have such a tunnel vision to really believe "all" of us at Lakewood are just on the bandwagon and are not praying for changes at Lakewood I wonder how you could ever get them to see the big picture, that some "are" praying for changes and at the same time fighting the continued bashing here from so called believers, that "should" be standing with me in Prayer I am almost at a total loss at the minds of Christians theses days. Should we not be standing together in Prayer for all Pastors and Churches that have gone astray are do we all set a better example by bashing them? go figure.

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Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote:Also,It is important to note that on Osteens sermons you will die to the life of Christ and eternal life.

In Christ - Jim-------------------------

Jim, do you really read what you write? are you saying the Pastor Joel holds the keys to my salvation? Sure appears to read like that to me. No one holds the keys to anyone salvation but the "one" that shed his blood, no matter who are whata person may be listening to, good Lord some really stretch the truth here. I might be concerned if anyone listens to Jim you will die to the life of Christ and eternal life. :-)

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 11:03I think we need to discern rightly

are there any pastors in your view mrbillpro that are false teachers? any preachers you would match with Jesus words inmatt 7 and pauls warnings to stay away from certain teachings and teachers?

I do not meen a perfect pastor, i belive there are none, and not the minor stuff like toungues or baptism issues many hangs up on, i meen the fundamental issues like salvation, repentance, hell , judgement.

If any pastor dont preach this, i would warn people they will not be getting the whole meal they need for their spiritual growth there. If it is a 10000 people church or just a 5 people church, it dont matter.

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


Quote:-------------------------hmmhmm wrote:I think we need to discern rightly

I do not mean a perfect pastor, i believe there are none, and not the minor stuff like toungues or baptism issues many hangs up on, i meen the fundamental issues like salvation, repentance, hell , judgement.

-------------------------

So this to me is a double standard it's not ok to bash some for there teachings that are minor stuff? I personally don't believe there is any minor stuff when it comes to the Word it's all major and should be treated that way.

Wrong is wrong and if your not teaching the perfect Word of God you are no different than Pastor Joel and I truly believe God would feel the same. We are all flawed you I and everyone and we are working on perfection as our life goes forward but good Lord if you read some of the stuff here it would make some feel such condemnation they might just quit it all period right in the middle of their walk and go back to the world.

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Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 11:24well there are different views of scripture, some are calvinists some arent. Some belive gifts are for today some dont. Are they important? yes....

but when any man, dont even use the word sin, dont preach repentance, hell..... they are not right in MY view. So who inyour opinion has the perfect teaching of the word? i would like to hear, I have heard Paul Washer say things i dont agreeon, i have heard Tozer say things i dont agree with, almost every single preacher teaches some aspect of some teaching different. That is what I meen by not perfect pastors.

But when we IGNORE to preach certain things from the word because of feelings we do wrong. if it be Joel Osteen or Paul Washer. the difference is i have heard Paul Washer preach the Love of God the mercy of God and the wrath of God and repentance.

I have not heard Joel Osteen preach this yet, but i hope to hear him someday go out there in lakewood and hit em with amessage "a la Ravenhill" jedgement seat of Christ

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 11:32hmmhmm, when you say "discern rightly" what exactly do you mean? If i discern different than you, which is right? You seem to say "unless you discern like me you are wrong and i am right" Mr washer goes on and on about mans evil heart. Now lets see what Jesus goes on and on about......Well it aint man's evil heart. The main point of rebuke from Jesus was Phairisee-ism. Now lets see......Who would fit that catagory?

David


Quote:-------------------------hmmhmm wrote:

I have not heard Joel Osteen preach this yet, but i hope to hear him someday go out there in Lakewood and hit em with a message "a la Ravenhill" judgement seat of Christ

-------------------------

Well our job is to Pray this will happen some day right? or is our job to bash and sit back with no faith this will ever happen? Pastor Joel is not lost "as some may think" he just needs a little help through Prayer but some choose to bash and some do as I do and I think Jesus would do Pray to his Father, personally I choose to go with Jesus.

I bet Daniel was sure glad when he was in the fire God was there with him and not some of us standing outside holleringhold on I will get the water bucket, you see my message here?Some of us are looking for the bucket of water while we should be standing in the fire with Pastor Joel and praying for him and Lakewood, this is what I am going to do until "GOD" tells me to give up there is no hope and I don't think the God I serve will ever say the words "NO HOPE"

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Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:hmmhmm, when you say "discern rightly" what exactly do you mean? If i discern different than you, which is right? You seem to say "unless you discern like me you are wrong and i am right" Mr washer goes on and on about mans evil heart. Now lets see what Jesus goes on and on about......Well it aint man's evil heart. The main point of rebuke from Jesus was Phairisee-ism. Now lets see......Who would fit that catagory?

David-------------------------

Dear David, no many friends and dear brothers to me hold totally opposite doctrines or view of scripture. What i meen is we take ALL of scriptures and compare and we discern what is right from wrong

I go by it like this....

Did -Jesus do this or teach this?

Did the Apostles do this or teach this?

do i find this doctrine spread out christians through time(not a perfect way, but gives a hint if not found anywhere it probably wrong)

can i find substansial scriptures? not a verse pulled out and ignoring 20 others.

If anyone dont agree with me i guess that is life, many dident agree with Jesus either.... I dont expect to be better treated.

edit:

DiscernDISCERN, v.t. s as z.

1. To separate by the eye, or by the understanding. Hence,

2. To distinguish; to see the difference between two or more things; to discriminate; as, to discern the blossom-buds from the leaf-buds of plants.

Discern thou what is thine--Gen 31.

3. To make the difference.

For nothing else discerns the virtue or the vice.

4. To discover; to see; to distinguish by the eye.

I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding. Prov 7.

5. To discover by the intellect; to distinguish; hence, to have knowledge of; to judge.

So is my lord the king to discern good and bad. 2 Sam 14.

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A wise mans heart discerneth time and judgment. Eccl 8.

DISCERN, v.i.

1. To see or understand the difference; to make distinction; as, to discern between good and evil, truth and falsehood.

2. To have judicial cognizance.

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 11:51I cant tell you with 100% accurancy who is lost or not, God knows if Joel is lost. I am not called to judge salvation, but i am called to discern/judge what they teach and say.

And you do not know me, or my prayers for these pastors i "bash" but yes that is my prayer and hope for Joel and othersI belive have twisted the gospel. And i am grateful for anyone lifting my name to God, I have long way left to go. and there is always hope until it is called today,

so keep praying brother,

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 11:56

Quote:-------------------------2 Peter 3:17-18Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.-------------------------

BillPro-

I do not wish to debate or argue with you based on your previous comments towards me. It is obvious to me that you are under strong delussion. You and I believe in two different Christs and two different Gospels. I am truly sorry that you love a false teacher who tickles your ears. I believe the Bible has something to say about that.

Joel Osteen is not a brother in error, he is a minister of satan and an enemy of the cross of Jesus Christ. You may willfully supress this truth under a guise of false love or false unity, but God is not mocked by this wolf in sheeps clothing. Do know that God is delivering many people out of it though. I truly pray that you will be one of them someday and look back on all of these things written with new discernment.

I do not harbor any ill feeling towards you, only a sad heart. The soon coming day of fire will reveal all things. We must all prepare to stand at the judgment seat.

I warn you only as the apostles warned the early Church of such men... and how much more so in the last days?

-Jim


Quote:-------------------------hmmhmm wrote:but i am called to discern/judge what they teach and say.-------------------------

Mercy you sure have your job cut out for you you will need lots of prayer, were are some of you other post on other pastors you discern/judge? I would like to read them in my spare time? or I will put my email in my profile you can send them

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to me I would like to read them, or is pastor Joel your first.I am called to Pray for these Pastors myself my job is a lot easier it lines up with my nature and I don't have to expose the flawed, because I am flawed also so really I would be a hypocrite unless I was perfect, but hey not my business thats between you and God. :-)


Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote: I am truly sorry that you love a false teacher who tickles your ears. I believe the Bible has something to say about that.

-Jim-------------------------

Then if thats the case Jim please post your pastors name here and your church so we can all judge "fairly" it's easy to judge someone that stands out while some that don't are preaching a false gospel in the back woods. :-(

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 12:05My Pastor: Jesus Christ, the good sheppardMy Church: The body of Christ

Please judge them carefully.

In Him - Jim


Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote:

Joel Osteen is not a brother in error, he is a minister of satan and an enemy of the cross of Jesus Christ.

-Jim-------------------------

This is exactly a perfect example of folks that have their minds made up and say there is no hope even in Christ, my Bible says "all" things are possible with Christ even Pastor Joel, I really think Jim has come here as minister of satan and anenemy of the cross of Jesus Christ.

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 12:07hmmhmm, before I got saved I knew I was going to hell. I got saved through a young lady's witness. I only looked at her and I saw something I didnt have. She went to a bar with me and would not order a drink. She went to the beach with me and other places. She told me from the start she was a christian. Her witness was so powerfull i was compelled to become born again. Now 30 years later I walk and talk WITH God. I am his and he is mine. NEVER a mention of hell or sin. I got news for you .....there is no hell and no sin in heaven. I do not dismiss hellfire preaching but you are demonising those outside that style of preaching. especially i cant understand the beating these peeople take on sunday. As if they never repent of sin and so thepreacher beats them to pieces and they leave the meeting under condemnation thinking they dont measure up to thepreachers "holy walk"

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To me this verges on catholicism. Only the priest is "holy". All the congregation is defective and "I will expose your evilhearts from the pulpit" They put heavy yokes on Gods people and they demonise encouragers.

My bible rebukes ,encourages,corrects,but best of all it frees me and restores me. It is life, not death to me. If you like living under sin centered preaching that is your business. But if Joel is an encourager why demonise him?

David

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 12:08no Joel is not my first, probably not my last either, and a verse brother you might want to consider for your own work

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

this word in greek and english to, is a verb, something you do - beware -

Jesus said this to the people following him.

so if you are serious in your following of Jesus, you will do just this.

Thayer Definition:1) to bring to, bring near1a) to bring a ship to land, and simply to touch at, put in2) to turn the mind to, attend to be attentive2a) to a person or a thing: of caring for, providing for3) to attend to oneÂ’s self, i.e. to give heed to oneÂ’s self3a) give attention to, take heed4) to apply oneÂ’s self to, attach oneÂ’s self to, hold or cleave to a person or a thing4a) to be given or addicted to4b) to devote thought and effort to


Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote:My Pastor: Jesus Christ, the good sheppardMy Church: The body of Christ

Please judge them carefully.

In Him - Jim-------------------------

Well it's sure is easy to sit back and judge when you have the "perfect" pastor right? no wonder you can judge like you do. O by the way Jesus Christ is mine also in spirit.

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/10 12:13There will always be the "called" to Judge Pastors/Churches or etc. and folks that are not called to do so, but it kind of waters down both of our callings when we sit here and fight back and forth like two year olds don't it? why not judge and move on why do some feel like they have to continue to make their point when it's already been made, I guess some arecalled to argue also. :-)

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Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 12:27Mrbillpro,Note they have the easiest of jobs.They are self appointed and dont do their "job" scripturally.Paul did it to theirface.Ex;Peter,and Barnabas They are free to"discern" without accoutability because they answer to no man. They are men on a mission thinking they are the actual hand of God. They Ignore Pauls basis for authority. The beatings ,the stripes, the shipwrecks, the stonings, the stripes. Paul understood the bounce back effects of judgement. And his ministry reflected it.

David


Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:hmmhmm, before I got saved I knew I was going to hell. I got saved through a young lady's witness. I only looked at her and I saw something I didnt have. She went to a bar with me and would not order a drink. She went to the beach with me and other places. She told me from the start she was a christian. Her witness was so powerfull i was compelled to become born again. Now 30 years later I walk and talk WITH God. I am his and he is mine. NEVER a mention of hell or sin. I got news for you .....there is no hell and no sin in heaven. I do not dismiss hellfire preaching but you are demonising those outside that style of preaching. especially i cant understand the beating these peeople take on sunday. As if they never repent of sin and so the preacher beats them to pieces and they leave the meeting under condemnation thinking they dont measure up to the preachers "holy walk"

To me this verges on catholicism. Only the priest is "holy". All the congregation is defective and "I will expose your evil hearts from the pulpit" They put heavy yokes on Gods people and they demonise encouragers.

My bible rebukes ,encourages,corrects,but best of all it frees me and restores me. It is life, not death to me. If you like living under sin centered preaching that is your business. But if Joel is an encourager why demonise him?

David-------------------------

Jesus is the one in the bible who spoke most about hell, because he is the one whos love for man is greatest. No one can love more then Jesus, that is why he warned people of their future if they did not repent. And i do not dare alter the message, or parts of it, or any of the kind, please do preach encouragement and every uplifting verse you can find, God bless all who does, but please be like Jesus also, he preached away 5000 people one time! can you imagine what some would call Jesus if he did that today?

count the times Jesus spike about heaven and hell you preach that percentage. Be like Jesus


Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:Mrbillpro,Note they have the easiest of jobs.They are self appointed and dont do their "job" scripturally.Paul did it to their face.Ex;Peter,and Barnabas They are free to"discern" without accoutability because they answer to no man. They are men on a mission thinking they are the actual hand of God. They Ignore Pauls basis for authority. The beatings ,the stripes, the shipwrecks, the stonings, the stripes. Paul understood the bounce back effects of judgement. And his ministry reflected it.

David-------------------------

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I assume that I am one off the people you call "they"

Brother, what do you know about my life to make such comments?

all i have said, is we should judge a mans teaching according to ALL of scripture, and that a man who dares stand in a pulpit on behalf of God should preach it ALL.

God bless you all, i am moving on


Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:Mrbillpro,Note they have the easiest of jobs.They are self appointed and dont do their "job"

David-------------------------

Our society has a serious problem when it comes to judging other people. Jesus Christ said it best when he told the people that were ready to stone a woman for her sin, "Those of you without sin, go ahead and cast the first stone." In today's world it is all about appearances. As long as we all appear to be a paragon of virtue, and can manage to keep our ownskeletons in a closet, then we are free to cast as many stones as we wish at others who messed up. This is our world. Anyone reading this that can't think of something in their lives that they are ashamed of is a "liar" indeed. I feel bold enough in saying this because of my faith in God and what he has said about his creation. Not one is worthy or without sin. No one is good His eyes. I realized this one day when it was just me, God, and a mirror. I looked at myself. I saw a person that has a good heart and cares about people but there were many failings and weaknesses present as well. This is not an easy thing to do. I think that human beings lives are changed, for the better, when and if they reach this stage in life. To look into that mirror to and see what is behind the face or masks that we wear .


Quote:-------------------------please post your pastors name here and your church so we can all judge "fairly" it's easy to judge someone that stands out while some that don't are preaching a false gospel in the back woods. -------------------------

Not to get involved in this debate, but I've noticed Mr.Bill several times issuing this challenge as a defense. That if someone has an objection to Joel Osteen's gospel, to go ahead and post their own pastor's name on here. I really don't understand the logic to this, but after repeated provocations, I've decided to be the first to comply.

My Pastor's name is (http://www.nlccsm.org/pastorspage.html) Ken Volkert, and the church he heads is New Life Christian Center in San Marcos, Texas. It's a "backwoods" kind of place, actually, and he doesn't write books or appear on television. I am submitting his name publically because I am confident in the gospel he preaches, and his uncompromizing allegiance to God's Word. He will most likely never be on TV, or write a book to make the New York Bestseller list, but he is a faithful, loving, meek, bold and very serious man of God whom I love. He is a nobody, faithfully serving God behind the scenes. I propose there are many more like him, of whose gospel can endure scrutiny.

What this proves or doesn't prove in vindicating Joel Osteen, I have no idea. I'm only providing this information because Mr. Bill has asked for those who object to Osteen's gospel to make their own pastors publically known. And I most empathetically object to Osteen's gospel.

Brother Paul

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Re:, on: 2007/12/10 12:41

Quote:-------------------------I really think Jim has come here as minister of satan and an enemy of the cross of Jesus Christ. -------------------------

Billpro-

The Lord rebuke you and your devil pastor sir. May you repent and come out from your strong dellusion before the appointed day of wrath, lest you perish with him.

In Christ Jesus - Jim


Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote:

Quote:-------------------------I really think Jim has come here as minister of satan and an enemy of the cross of Jesus Christ. -------------------------

Billpro-

The Lord rebuke you and your devil pastor sir. May you repent and come out from your strong dellusion before the appointed day of wrath, lest you perish with him.

In Christ Jesus - Jim-------------------------

So as I said below as long as we all appear to be a paragon of virtue, and can manage to keep our own skeletons in a closet, then we are free to cast as many stones as we wish at others right, Jim so it's ok for you to cast stones on Pastor Joel but not ok for folks to cast stones on you, do you always live in a double standard world are just here? :-(

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 12:50hmmmhmmm, I looked in the strongs. Jesus used "hell" 16 times,hades 0 times,lake of fire 4 times. Wanna know something interesting? He used love 43 times , joy 14 times Should we emphasize like Jesus?

David

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/10 12:54This thread is got to be a perfect example of Kicking A Dead Horse! and I am sure God is proud of us all, so you folks called to bash carry on but I choose to leave it be. I think we have "all" really Glorified God here enough in our actions, no wonder lost folks choose to stay lost reading threads like this, and yes I am man enough to say I was a part of this thread also and I am sure the God I serve is not real proud of me at the moment but I will only speak for myself, some might think God is real proud of them about now.

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Re:, on: 2007/12/10 12:56Truth is truth, I will continue to stand for it. I do not rebuke for sake of my reputation but for truths sake. I have not spoken anything false. God forbid that anyone else be deceived by those who lie and love lies.

In Christ - Jim


Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:hmmmhmmm, I looked in the strongs. Jesus used "hell" 16 times,hades 0 times,lake of fire 4 times. Wanna know something interesting? He used love 43 times , joy 14 times Should we emphasize like Jesus?

David-------------------------

of course brother, and i think if you were to go through all my posts, you would find the majority posted in love. But I have failed numerous times.and if anyone preach hell without groaning for their souls and weeping before God i would consider that wrong,

but yes emphasizing love, just dont ignore the rest. and without preaching of sin, you cant understand the love of God

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 13:00Paulwest, When you attack a mans pastor .......well you might as well attack his own mother. The church family is poweerfull. It can and should be "tighter" than your natural family. Hold to the light? YES. Attack and call names? Get ready to defend yourrsself. Call a mans pastor a devil? That crosses the line and reveals the "attackers" for what they are

David

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 13:04david & bill

How do we know who preaches the truth?

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 13:04

Quote:-------------------------Call a mans pastor a devil? That crosses the line and reveals the "attackers" for what they are-------------------------

Spekers of truth. You start with the (false) supposition that he is not a devil...

Scripture clearly warns that many would pretent to be Gods pastors and would actually be ministers of satan. (2 Cor 11)

So if someone calls a devil a devil that makes them... a speaker of unpopular truth in this day of strong delusion.

In Christ - Jim

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Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:Call a mans pastor a devil? That crosses the line and reveals the "attackers" for what they are

David-------------------------

Yep, I personally even thought that would cross the line at Sermon/Index, but as I said before I don't own the site and thank god for the person that called my Pastor the devil because he would be history, thats just out of line period and hitting way below the belt, and only takes away some integrity form all of us here when the worldly folks read this stuff and don't think it don't makes me wonder about a person that would say something like that myself. :-)

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 13:08Jim, I have a question. Why ,when given the opportunity, Did David not kill saaul? also why did he stop his servant from killing Saul?

David


Quote:-------------------------hmmhmm wrote:david & bill

How do we know who preaches the truth?-------------------------

I only know of one "perfect" Pastor that ever preached the "complete" truth and the whole truth and he is Jesus Christ, that is how you will know, listen to Jesus minister to you and your getting the whole,complete truth, why? because the Word says we are "ALL" flawed how about that answer?.

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 13:11

Quote:-------------------------Jim, I have a question. Why ,when given the opportunity, Did David not kill saaul? also why did he stop his servant from killing Saul?-------------------------

David-

Answer my question first. Why did Elisha order the prophets of baal be captured and taken down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there?

In Christ - Jim

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Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 13:14hmmhmm, First of all a totally unrregenerate man can speak the truth But i dont say dont hold pastors to the light. What i say is do it biblically. If I destroy my brother to makee my point....Am i some sort of watchman or a .........?

David

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 13:18Jim, bad analogy,think of another.

Saul= supposed man of God

David= true man of God

I would rather stay on subject. I f you refuse to answer I will answer the question..............just trying to make n obvious point

David

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 13:20

Quote:-------------------------What i say is do it biblically.-------------------------

That is the main point. The love being talked about here is a false love. It is biblical to

1) name names2) warn the true brethren agains ministers of satan who masquarade as angels of light3) have public disagreements that it may be known who is speaking on Gods behalf and who is not.

there are clear NT scriptures for all of these. Please look them up yourselves.

Love cares more for the souls of men and truth of God then for the feelings of damnable false teachers and their deceived followers.

In Christ - Jim

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/10 13:20Actually, true Christians do not hate anyone. WeÂ’re taught to hate the sin but love the sinner. People who use the label of Christianity to promote hatred of fellow humans are simply sinners in a different manner and I will love them and hate their sin just like IÂ’ll do for anyone else.Mr. Bill

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Re:, on: 2007/12/10 13:22

Quote:-------------------------Jim, bad analogy,think of another.

Saul= supposed man of God

David= true man of God

I would rather stay on subject. I f you refuse to answer I will answer the question..............just trying to make n obvious point

-------------------------

David, my question is valid.

In Christ - Jim


Quote:-------------------------Paulwest, When you attack a mans pastor .......well you might as well attack his own mother.-------------------------

Pastors are fallible, they are human. They can err. I fear some of us may be allowing emotions to get in the way of truth. If a pastor is preaching error, he is preaching error; if he is not preaching the complete gospel, he is witholding truth for fear of diminishing his stature in the eyes of man. He should get out of the pulpit.

Paul warned of Alexander the Coppersmith; John warned of Diotrephes. These leaders all had followers, and they too were insulted by these epistles, I can assure you.

Quote:-------------------------It can and should be "tighter" than your natural family.-------------------------

I strongly disagree. Your natural family must be "tighter" than your church family. If we had our priorities straight, we probably wouldn't be so offended and emotional. It matters not about what our mama pastors say - it matters about God's truth first. And if mama happens to be wrong, then mama is just wrong. Let God be first, then your family, then your church.

Quote:-------------------------Call a mans pastor a devil?-------------------------

If the pastor in question is promulgating doctrines of devils, he should be exposed for what he is doing. If the "children" are hurt because their "mama" is being disrobed and her leprosy laid bare before all...well, they should be more concerned with the disease than with the nudity.

Brother Paul

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Quote:-------------------------PaulWest wrote:

Quote:-------------------------Paulwest, When you attack a mans pastor .......well you might as well attack his own mother.-------------------------

Pastors are fallible, they are human. They can err. I fear some of us may be allowing emotions to get in the way of truth. Brother Paul -------------------------

Paul, the object of any argument should be progress not victory, it would be helpful if some would give more concrete examples. Otherwise, it just seems like name calling, (which I learned in logic class years ago is called an ad hominem).

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 13:31Jim, I dont doubt that you cant see my point. Apparently you dont know what it is to experience deep, deep grief. I want to be tender to my bretheren. they are precious and Gods very own.

We must be tough when warrented and tender especially to the household of God.

David


Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:Jim, I dont doubt that you cant see my point. Apparently you dont know what it is to experience deep, deep grief. I want to be tender to my bretheren. they are precious and Gods very own.

David-------------------------

David, "Some" Christians pick and choose what they want to believe, which is fine with me. What I find disgusting is howthey try to legislate their ideology so that others are forced to live by their rules. I have no respect for that at all.Bill

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 13:39Dear Jim,

The Bible teaches us to warn a divisive person once and then twice, and if he doesn't repent, to have nothing to do with him (Titus 3:10). If we do continue to argue with him, then we are on our own.

I've shown much zeal in rebuking my unbelieving grandfather at times, and the conversations always ended nowhere. He simply didn't have the eyes to see and the ears to hear; and I didn't have the eyes to see his true condition. What I did I did to show God and myself how much I knew and what a guardian of the truth I was, and how reliable a servant I was.This made me proud and arrogant in the end. Not that I didn't speak the truth, but I'd better not have spoken.

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I know we yearn to be heard and for people to come to know the truth through our message, especially when we've been given so much from the Lord, but sometimes this is the hardest thing to bear: the rejection of Jesus Christ. For you know that it is not just you that they are rejecting but Him!

Take courage, brother!

In Christ,Slavyan

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 13:40Jim, your analogy reveals what you are after. The slaughter of False demonised heathen.. In absolutely no way does this fit the discussion. Do you actually see the people of God that dont preach to your standards this way? They are to be slaughtered?

David

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/10 13:43I believe when Christians disagree with one another, it's important that they are well versed in what could be called Biblical rules of engagement. Paul lays down some of these rules in Romans 14:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every dayalike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind (Romans 14.1-5).

Just some of the "Word of Gods" food for thoughtMr. Bill


Quote:-------------------------NotMe wrote:Dear Jim,

The Bible teaches us to warn a divisive person once and then twice, and if he doesn't repent, to have nothing to do with him (Titus 3:10). If we do continue to argue with him, then we are on our own.

-------------------------

Wow! that scripture should be posted right under the Sermon/Index banner. :-P

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 13:50Paul,Ever read fox's book of marters? they had it right. natural family last. Jesus said "such is my mother and family" in speaking to his "church family" Jesus also said "let the dead bury the dead" he would not have said this to his disciples. I do not beelive scripture teaches natural family ahead of "spiritual" family. David

P.s. if emotion is bad then paul mised it when he wept over the church off corinth

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Re:, on: 2007/12/10 13:50

Quote:-------------------------Jim, your analogy reveals what you are after.The slaughter of False demonised heathen..In absolutely no way does this fit the discussion.Do you actually see the people of God that dont preach to your standards this way?They are to be slaughtered?

-------------------------

David this comment reveals that you do not understand what is being said. There is a spiritual principal here. We are toexpose false prophets, warn others about them and slaughter their damnable teachings...

Again, just as I wrote below, clear NT scripture is avaialable to support all of this. If you really are interested in seeing it let me know.

In Christ - Jim

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 13:55Slavyan- thank you brother.

In Christ - Jim

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 14:01Jim, I have read that account and you are wrong ! that was not a teaching laying there dead. They were dead heathen laying there. Not false people of God but dead devil worshippers. David

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 14:082 Corinthians 11:13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

David-

Consider these words.

In Christ - Jim


Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:Jim, I have read that account and you are wrong ! that was not a teaching laying there dead. They were dead heathen laying there. Not false people ofGod but dead devil worshipers. David-------------------------

Be careful David I remember reading this somewhere :-P The Bible teaches us to warn a divisive person once and then twice, and if he doesn't repent, to have nothing to do with him (Titus 3:10). If we do continue to argue with him, then we are on our own, Soon you will be like Jim own your own without the help of God if you continue. he has warned us all about Pastor Joel about 10 times man he has been on his own for a while.:-)

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Quote:-------------------------Paul,Ever read fox's book of marters? they had it right. natural family last.-------------------------

Yes I have read it, but I think you may be missing my point. You are not a martyr at Smithfield and no one here is askingyou to deny Christ to save your skin. We are making appeals concerning the gospel of Joel Osteen, which supercedes family - spiritual, natural or otherwise.

Your natural family is more important than your church family on many different fronts. I am suprised that you would even contest this; it is basic Christianity 101, and even small children know this. Realize, of course, I am not talking about a heathenistic, unbelieving family that is exclusively bent on deterring you from walking with Christ. Or a family that is coercing you to sin against God. But notice I say "God" and not your "church". God supercedes church, pastors, choirs, etc. The problem we have today is people who are zealously loyal to their churches, but not as loyal or willing to spend time with their families, and even less loyal and willing to spend time with God.

Your natural family is infinitely more important than your "church" family. Whom do you feed first - your son or the pastor's son? Whom do you clothe first? Whom do you discipline? Paul told Timothy that if an elder can't manage his own family, he cannot manage God's family. Peter said that if a husband and wife are at odds, their prayers will be hindered. A Christian with hindered prayers is of as much use to his "spiritual" family as a weaponless soldier is to his army.

Ask Samuel and David and Eli about the repurcussions and woes they faced for not putting family above ministry.

Brother Paul

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 14:30MrBillPro-

I have warned you twice now. First on the previous thread and now on this on.

I will not answer you any further as my dear brother pointed out with the scripture you now mock. Just so it is known, I will have nothing else to do with you.

I do leave you with the words "The Lord rebuke you and your devil pastor" and a sincere prayer that you would repent and come out from under the strong dellusion you have been handed over to.

I will continue to talk with others who might be in error even if you happen to be reading (though never perceiving) it.

"The Lord rebuke you and your devil pastor"

In Christ -Jim

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 14:40Jim, yes he speaks of false breatheren but read on because then he shows us the true apostle. This true apostles ministry is autheticated and now since you quoted this lets see if any including me and you and joelecapes the labeling of the false apostles and lets see if you and me are false and satanic ministers. Isnt it good of Paulto give us this stark contrast of false apostles and true? Ok here goes...The true apostle...-are they hebrews? so am I.minisers of christ? I more. In stripes ..above measure, inprisioned, in deaths, i was beaten with rods the list goes on and on. but he goes on to qualify the true postle."truely the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in signs and wonders and mighty deeds........ wow now we know ANYONE NOT doing this is a false aapostle. Yes jim you me and Washer aand i suppose 99.9% of all christianity is not only false but masqueraading as demons.

the signs and wonders part alone gets most you guys. Wow jim you got taken out quick.

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David


Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote:MrBillPro-

I have warned you twice now. First on the previous thread and now on this on.

I will not answer you any further as my dear brother pointed out with the scripture you now mock. Just so it is known, I will have nothing else to do withyou.

"The Lord rebuke you and your devil pastor"

In Christ -Jim-------------------------

I went back and counted this is over 4 times you have warned all of us here this is math 101 to be able to count, and sir your the only Devil I see here.

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 14:46Paul, any scripture supporting my lack of knowledge of basic christianity?

I gave you 2

Thanks, David

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/10 14:53Also, nothing that is not specifically designated as evil in Scripture is evil Â— but rather a matter of one's personal preference or taste. So let it be. Even if you personally would not do what another is doing, let it be. And you who feel the freedom to do so, don't flaunt it or mock those who disagree. We are in the construction business, not destruction. And let's all remember that God's big-picture kingdom plan is not being shaped by small things like what one person prefers over another, but by large things, like righteousness and peace and joy.In ChristMr. Bill

Re: - posted by PaulWest (), on: 2007/12/10 14:551 Timothy 3:5 is a good place to start, I think.

Maybe we could start a new thread that deals with this very issue.

Brother Paul


Quote:-------------------------PaulWest wrote:1 Timothy 3:5 is a good place to start, I think.

Maybe we could start a new thread that deals with this very issue.

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Brother Paul

-------------------------

Brother Paul I am all for that or anything other than some nut case sitting here calling my Pastor the Devil, this is uncalled for and all they are doing is looking for a CONFRONTATION! ...when they know good and well someone that attends that Church is not only a member here, but on this thread. It's not Christian like and trust me only Satan himself would come here to devour like this, I have never in my life seen such a mouth on a so called Christian to use the words this freak does, weres the love?

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 15:12paul, I can see what you are saying. Yes if a person has saved family then they have a double blessing . they are not only family but brethern. I suppose this is more faceted than i first posted it

David

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 15:54Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

who are these Jesus is speaking about?

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

who are these decivers? who are the decived ones?

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

How do we know they are false?

Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

who are these?

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

what is this?

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

.....

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

withdraw thyself

David and MrBill

who are these? should we be looking out for all these deceivers? these false teachers? satan in disguise?

/33


or should we just go on pretending everything is ok...?

how do you obey these commandments?

are these less important scriptures then the love one another commands?

or do you pick and choose the ones that feel good about yourself because you are more "loving" then those hellfire guys?

we need preach all! Love,Grace, Mercy, Judgment, Hell, Repentance

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2007/12/10 15:54I guess I should say I am sorry if I have got out of line here so for the "record" I am sorry, but as I have said in another Post "I HAVE MY PASTOR IN PRAYER" and for Jim to come in here and call my Pastor the Devil while I have Pastor Joel in prayer is wrong, not Christ like and totally uncalled for, think about it stop and think for "one moment" folks who else but Satan himself would not want me to Pray for my Pastor to become the person Christ wants him to be? is the picture getting clearer?

No one else that we could call a Christian would ever give up on Prayer because when you give up on Prayer you have given up on God RIGHT? I have a Pastor that has the ability to reach the world and bring in millions of salvations? Satan don't want him to rebuke and get right am I correct? Satan wants him to continue in the walk he is in now so millions will be discouraged and not come to Christ, folks the writing is all over the wall here this is why Jim has come here to deceive look at who started this thread for God's sake wake up.

There is a lot of jealously in the Body of Christ. We as Christians are in the same race, we all want to see people come to Christ and live a holy life, so why are we critizing other ministries just because God is blessing them in different ways? We should be happy when one church is growing and that pastor is reaching so many people, I know I am. Everyone has different gifts and anointings. I think it is very immature and shows you where you are in your walk when you diss otherPastors and Churchs. If you don't like a certain pastor, then whatever, but do not go around trash talking them in front of other people! how selfish, that person you are talking to may like that pastor and if they are not mature enough then it will sow bad seeds.

"Any" church can grow if they humble themselves before the Lord and purify themselves. God wants church's to grow, why do people think Christians are suppose to be poor, a lot of people say well Jesus was poor and we want to be like him....nooo.....Jesus was not poor, He was poor in comparison to what he had in Heaven. All of his needs were meet. A church is either growing or its dying. God wants to promote us and give us everything we need, he loves to see church's grow. Why is it so bad that a church has thousands in attendance every week?That should make you happy, not jealousand be like that's to big. What are they suppose do? Say "sorry but we reached our limit" noooo.....let as many people come and God will give you more room. Every pastor is different, God has given each one of them different anointings, we need to hear what they have to say...if we hear the same thing by every pastor then how are we going to be balanced and reach our full potential?

God has called us all to a certain church....God loves to see his people in church, a church can NEVER be to big! I would love to see millions in attendance every week. How awesome would that be?? Pastors do not need to trash talk other pastors either, I've seen that. If you would get rid of your jealously then maybe God will bless your church also. God can't bless you with a jealous heart. What, are you mad that someone else is bringing in thousands of people to Christ, that'skind of selfish, don't you think? It should bring a smile to your face to see these people accept Christ.

Once again I am sorry but what kind of a Christian would I be if I just gave up on Prayer for my Pastor and my Church? Iwould be the same kind of Christian that when your laying in the Hospital sick and the Doc. says your going to die I don'tcare what Mr. Bill is praying for, well should I just give up on you also? and let Satan come in the hospital room and say yea buddy your going to die there is "no" hope, I don't care what Satan says I will continue in Prayer that is my duty to God to do so, and if you weak folks want to listen to Satan and give up well all I can do is pray for you also.

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God BlessMr. Bill

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 16:20I am warning people of this false minister and his false gospel, just as the apostles did. If God in his mercy brings abouta day when this man repents of coworking with satan then glory be to God. The scriptures do not indicate this, thoughit is possible, Peter said of such that "blackest darkness is reserved for them".

The words of the previous poster are lies. This can be proven by looking through this thread and another recent one onjoel O. The previous poster has continually upheld joel o (who preaches a false gospel) to be a man of God and abrother who is in slight error. Kinda like any other true preacher who isn't 100% correct in theology. This is not what theapsotles said, they warned us of these times and of these men.

As far as the continual attack of me being the devil by the previous poster I hold no hard feelings, only sadness as theprophets must of felt when they wrote "woe to those who call good evil and evil good" and the apostles when they wrotesuch things as "for this cause God shall send them a powerful delusion that they might believe the lie" or even the LordJesus who warned of "wolves in sheeps clothing".

I have been very forthcoming here, where as the previous poster has been manipulating and changing his storythroughout this thread. I have done nothing but exhort him to repentance and warn him from the scriptures. I have weptin the prayer closet for him and the only reason I come off this strong is because truth is at stake, in a day of darknessand deception.

I encourage anyone who has been following this thread to listen to this short compilation, and listen to the full sermon "AGospel of Slaghter" by Carter Conlon.

I will stand with pastor Carter Conlon... and I ask you to consider seriously who the devil is.

(www.fleebabylon.com/Gospel_of_slaughter.mp3) Compilation: A Gospel of Slaughter

In Christ Jesus - Jim

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 16:25I could not get the link to work brother.

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 16:26fixed...


Quote:-------------------------jimdied2sin wrote: If God in his mercy brings about a day when this man repents of coworking with satan then glory be to God. -------------------------

Thanks to encouraging folks like you his battle will be uphill, but my Dad always told me corn grows best in the valley, and I plan on being there right by his side in Prayer as he repents and grows it's called faith, trust me if your words here are "any" indication of your faith in folks or your faith period, I would make sure you take 10 parachutes on your next sky dive. :-)

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Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 16:32hmmhmm, I suppose a lot can be learned by what people say or preach. and maybe you can"know" them somewhat.

But the best way to know them is to work alongside them or live with them. "you will know them by their fruit" Fruit unto life or fruit unto death

If we met somewhere to fellowship you would get a glimpse of my charachter and personality. But would you know me? Not really. You would sense if I loved you or if I had motive. This is hard to hide. I say i want to encourage the bretheren. But do i? You will be the judge. When I leave your presence you will either feel blessed or something else. My heart is to bring Men closer to God and to do plenty of damage to the devils kingdom.

David

Re: - posted by hmmhmm (), on: 2007/12/10 16:34Good comp, good word, David Wilkerson is one of Gods voices to our generation. Some more for them that has ears tohear

(https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid15753) Repentance is the only hope

Re: - posted by Miccah (), on: 2007/12/10 16:35

Quote:-------------------------MrBillPro wrote:If you would get rid of your jealously then maybe God will bless your church also. God can't bless you with a jealous heart. What, are you mad that someone else is bringing in thousands of people to Christ, that's kind of selfish, don't you think? It should bring a smile to your face to see these people accept Christ.-------------------------

Hi MrBillPro,

I have been watching this post transpire. How can someone be jealous of something that they do not want? I don't see anyone here advocating wanting what Joel has, in reagards to his church size, message or money.

I do see people worried about souls being saved and deceived. I can see that you have a heart for people to be saved, which is great. But the question remains of "are these people truly being saved from Joel's message"? I think that is thequestions. Some believe these folks are not being saved through his message, while some believe they are being saved.

About being selfish. I see that people here ARE being selfish... selfish for true deciples of Christ. I think that we can all agree that this is what is most important, the saving of souls, regardless of number. Everyone needs the Lord.

Joel has put himself in a position where he is a well known face and has a message that a lot of people like. You can look at it either as a blessing, or a curse.

Luke 6:43-44

A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit

Â“For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush."

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This is the question that needs to be asked. How is the fruit of Joel's ministry? Is the scale that we measure the fruit based on a scale of money, fame, folks who "say the prayer", or is it measured by a reckless abandonment to sell everything that is of any worth to us for the chance to follow Jesus?

If one only looks to measure Kingdom worth by the first set of measures given, then the scale is already flawed to begin with and you will always get a skewed result.

How many of Joel's memebers are passionate about laying down their lives for Jesus? What happens when this touches their pocketbook? What happens if they loose everything on account of the gospel? If the prosperity message only works with prosperity, what happens when it is no longer prosperous?

Jesus has been here long before money and He will be here long after money. Will Joel's flock be?

Keep praying for Joel, his flock and all of us. I will never turn down a blessing :-)


Quote:-------------------------hmmhmm wrote:I could not get the link to work brother.-------------------------

Links to other Pastors and what they say are only opinions, why can't we just say what we want to say ourselves not let someone else speak the words for us, surely we have grown more than that, were we can speak for ourselves.I would rather someone post scriptures any day rather than links to others opinions because scriptures are the infallible Word of God, 'anything" man say is fallible, well I did say that but so did God. :-)


Quote:-------------------------Miccah wrote:

Keep praying for Joel, his flock and all of us. I will never turn down a blessing :-) -------------------------

Thank you that is the true spirit of a 'real" Christian. :-)

By the way I did apologize to you all but I guess Jim calling Pastor Joel the Devil here doesn't warrant an apology here from him but thats totally between his God and him.

Re: - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/12/10 16:39hmmhmm, and by the way even though we dissaagree on a lot of things. I would be honored to sit and talk with you! When I read the 7 letters to the 7 churches it seems Jesus has a different remedy for error than most here on si

David

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Quote:-------------------------psalm1 wrote:hmmhmm, and by the way even though we dissaagree on a lot of things. I would be honored to sit and talk with you! When I read the 7 letters to the 7 churches it seems Jesus has a different remedy for error than most here on si

David-------------------------

well i think we interpret them different to brother, but yes it would be interesting meeting you brother. If not before so home in heaven I pray

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 17:28The question here is not whether is it Joel Osteen, or Joyce Meyer, or Art Katz, or any other real or fictitious person isbetter or more trustworthy. It is not about comparing my pastor with theirs and feeling good about my convictions. Paulwarned the Corinthians about claiming to be followers of different teachers (some said they were of Apollos, other ofPaul, third of Christ), for this divisiveness was a sign of their carnality. The Lord Jesus Himself knew what was in man and didn't commit Himself to any man (John 2:24-25). Neither should we, but we have one Teacher, the Christ (Matthew 23:8). The question is that as long as we trust in the authority of men more than in God, we are sure to be deceived, one way or another. You choose whether you are going to make some man's authority truth for yourself or make the Truth your only authority. Authority before men is worth nothing, regardless of what people--or the majority of people--may say. One day we will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account of what we've done in the flesh, to be confronted with Truth Himself, and what shall we do then with our doctrines, and beliefs, and preferences? How will we know whether He will not say "Depart from Me" unless we have really known Him? And how can we that we know Him unless we have the witness of God is us?

Dear Bill, I cannot esteem (from my flesh) any man higher than another and I do not. For the flesh is flesh: there nothing good in it and it profits nothing. Paul Washer's flesh doesn't profit him any more than does Joel Osteen's. For both there is one path and one sentence: death on the Cross. "So no flesh should glory in His presence."

The Lord Jesus said, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63)." The flesh--the dominant nature of the old, unregenerated man--includes all assumptions, all knowledge, and understanding, and all wisdom that is from the world, which we have before Christ is formed in us and which we must keep in subjection afterwards. It is not just a passive bag of knowledge we can forget about, but a human, unspiritual way of operation. Thus, it all has to go, the good and the bad, and we, who once have been united with Christ in His death, shall be united also in His resurrection. Then and then only, after the old creation has been done away with, will He teach us all truth and we will be able to bear it. This is the truth which will set us free. But until then--until Chris is formed in us and we abide in Him as He abides in us and His Spirit teaches us all truth--we will be children tossed to and fro, trusting in ourselves, and an easy game for the enemy.

Dear Bill, let me ask you: Do you know the Spirit of Truth? Do you know Him? Does He speak to you? Can you hear His voice?

Listen to the words of Daniel the prophet:

Daniel 2:20-23

"Daniel answered and said:

'Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding.

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He reveals deep and secret things; He knows what is in the darkness, And light dwells with Him. 'I thank You and praise You, O God of my fathers; You have given me wisdom and might, And have now made known to me what we asked of You, For You have made known to us the kingÂ’s demand.'"

Daniel wasn't a man more intelligent by the world's standards. He wasn't smarter or more knowledgeable or craftier thanthe wise men of Babylon, but he knew God. And he knew that all true wisdom came from God. He knew he was worth nothing, that he couldn't trust his intellect or his knowledge, so when the king gave him the task to interpret the dream for him, Daniel could do nothing but "seek mercies from the God of heaven concerning this secret" (Dan. 2:18). Daniel and his companions were men broken and poor in spirit who knew that they would die were it not for the mercy of God. There was no way to figure this dream out if God were not to reveal it to them. And God gave Daniel a vision that night. It was God's work so Daniel's boasting was excluded.

So it is with us: our sufficiency of from God. And unless we are broken before Him, and put no confidence in our flesh foranything, that is, we know our true state, the mercy and the wisdom of God will not come. Praise be to God who "resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble" (Prov. 3:34).

Re:, on: 2007/12/10 18:51I should not have written any of the stuff I wrote because the Lord had not so commanded. I am afraid I did it in my own wisdom and I repent of it all.

Re: - posted by murdog (), on: 2007/12/10 19:25Bill and David,

I do want to apologize for my post, not so much what was written but the attitude in which it was written. I have read thisthread in its entirety. So I believe what I am writing is balanced.

First of all to everyone that has posted in this thread it is obvious that you care about Bill and David. It may not seem that way because Jim called your pastor a devil. But a true friend tells you the most truth while an enemy multipies kisses.

Bill you may not realize it right now but Jim is more of a friend to you than Joel Osteen is. I used to love Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis and Joel Osteen. But they never told me the whole truth about the God of the bible, never told me about repentance or the fact that I was in great danger of going to hell because I was not truly born again. Oh I prayed the sinner's prayer and thought I was saved, but I was not bearing fruit in keeping with repentance. I did not love holiness.

You are fortunate Bill, in the fact that you have been a member of SI for some time now. You have most likely read and listened to some great men of God here.

Don't stop praying for Joel, but for your own sake you should find another church. I am not saying this with an attitude. This is from my heart to yours. I know from experience having listened to many sermons from Joel and Kenneth. They sound so good and the false words are almost indistinguishable. But their teachings are very dangerous.

My prayer is that all of us bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And that none of us are numbered with the goats.

Help us Lord to listen to our brethren who are opposed to us. Give us ears to hear.

I love you Bill and David.

Murray

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