Charityworks 2014/2015

Jonathan Buck

Assignment 1 – January 6th 2015

Defining Co-Production For Network Housing Group’s Regeneration

Projects

We want you to use your first assignment to investigate how your organisation and/or the non-

profit sector will respond to changing environments, challenges, and opportunities in the next decade.

Please explore one or more of the following topics and how it relates to your organisation/the sector:

People, Money, Service Users, Data, Service Delivery, Fundraising, Campaigning, Technology

and Governance

Contents

1. Introduction 2Network Housing Group, Regeneration and My Role 2Report Overview 2

2. Existing Research Analysis 2Why is Co-production Important? 2Defining Co-production in the Context of Regeneration 2Critique of Existing Research 2

3. Interview Analysis 2How Can Co-Production Be Effectively Introduced? 2Case Study 2Critique of Report Methodology 2

4. Recommendations 2

5. Conclusion 2

Appendix A - Six Principles of Co-Production 2Appendix B - Report Methodology 2Appendix C - Tim Goodwin Interview Transcript 2Appendix D - Jemima Collins Interview Transcript 2Appendix E - Tim Porter Interview Transcript 2Appendix F - Stephen Howlett Interview Transcript 2Appendix G - Dawit Kuma Interview Transcript 2Appendix H - Adewale Bakare Interview Transcript 2

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1. Introduction

Network Housing Group, Regeneration and My Role

Network Housing Group (NHG) is a Housing Association which manages 19,300 homes across London. As well as managing these properties, it also looks to develop new ones and improve communities through regeneration. According to Roberts and Sykes (2005, P. 17) a regeneration project is a ‘comprehensive and integrated vision and action which leads to the resolution of urban problems and which seeks to bring about a lasting improvement in the economic, physical, social and environmental condition of an area that has been subject to change.’1 Currently, NHG is carrying out four regeneration projects; Stockwell Park, South Kilburn, Rectory Park and Sele Farm. I assist the project managers to ensure that each regeneration project is successful in improving the economic, physical, social and environmental conditions in each of these areas, and is also delivered on time.

Report Overview

After attending a Charityworks Learning Session on the concept of co-production I was interested to explore how the NHG Regeneration Department may be able to adopt it as a model for working in the future. By focusing on co-production this report will primarily explore the topics of service users and service delivery within the posed question.

Regeneration and co-production are interlinked because whilst regeneration is a service which involves a community being re-designed and then appropriate actions delivering that design, Boyle and Harris (2009, P.16) argue that co-production (despite not having a comprehensive definition) is a set of six principles which directs an organisations practical approach to service design and delivery.2 (These six principles are listed in Appendix A).

Using these principles to understand co-production, this report’s first purpose will be to demonstrate that co-production and regeneration should be closely-associated, due to the many benefits it can bring. This is supported by both the primary and secondary research. (See Appendix B for full methodology).

Furthermore, this report will then explain how the NHG Regeneration Department should most appropriately implement co-production, and argue that it can do so by developing more comprehensive and effective

1 Roberts, P and Sykes, H (2005) Urban Regeneration – A Handbook, British UrbanRegeneration Association, SAGE Publications, London.2 David Boyle and Michael Harris, Challenge Paper: The Challenge of Co-Production (2009)

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communication streams between itself and the residents. For it is the opinion of this report that although it is important to provide more opportunities for residents to get involved throughout the regeneration process, this alone will not be sufficient for implementing co-production, it will simply continue to empower only a small proportion of residents. Rather the creation of efficient communication will empower all residents, give them equal contribution and encourage them to get involved. It is believed that the following four point plan would develop these communication streams and make them effective;

1) Arrange a co-production awareness workshop for the Regeneration and wider Development Department to formally introduce co-production and emphasise the importance of effective resident involvement.

2) To create an entrenched opinion recognition process to ensure that all views given by residents are recorded, responded to and ultimately fully utilised.

3) To improve the communication of the department by building several new access points, and using each to provide residents with regular updates, choices and chances to get involved.

4) (To be considered on a project by project basis) To allow residents to choose an appropriate architect and contractor, to introduce building site visits and to get residents involved in the snagging process that takes place before a new building is handed over.

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2. Existing Research Analysis

Why is Co-production Important?

According to a range of primary and secondary research the introduction of co-production would assist NHG’s regeneration projects in bringing the improvements highlighted by Roberts and Sykes, (2005, P.17) as well as help NHG meet its strategic objectives and gain future regeneration work.

For instance, Boyle, Clark and Burns (2006, P. 3) suggest that economic conditions in an area are improved when co-production is introduced. Their study discovered that when people outside of paid work participated in co-production they were able to extend their social networks and increase the range of opportunities open to them, as well as improve their self-esteem and confidence, making it more likely for them to gain employment.

Concurrently Jackson (2013, P. 3) explains that there are financial benefits linked to introducing co-production. ‘In the London Borough of Camden, co-production in mental health services has… saved money by reducing referrals to more specialist forms of care’. Although this evidence is directed specifically from a mental health service, the financial benefits of involving residents in regeneration projects were alluded to by both Jemima Collins and Tim Goodwin (Appendix C & D). They explained that by involving residents in a regeneration project the project is less likely to re-create conditions which previously caused problems for tenants. Thus, in the long-term reducing the amount NHG expenditure on rectifying these problems after the regeneration has finished. This benefit could therefore support NHG to achieve one of its new strategic objectives – ‘increasing our financial strength’3.

Further to this research (Brown 2014) has pointed out that housing associations are now in competition with their Local Authorities for development work, as demonstrated by Lambeth Council taking charge of the regeneration for Somerleyton Road in Brixton. Councillor Pete Robbins explains that they have utilised Brixton Green, an organisation owned by 1,200 people who live in Brixton4, in order to put ‘local people in the driving seat of regeneration’ (2014, P.40). However, this regeneration project is just one example of a much wider movement from Labour Councils who are committed to giving ‘communities more power to shape what they really want’ (2014, P.40). It is worth noting that the three London boroughs where NHG are currently carrying out regeneration (Brent, Lambeth and Ealing) are all labour controlled, and from looking at Figure 1 it can also be seen that throughout London the labour party holds a vast majority. 3 Network Housing Group Five Year Strategy 2014 – 2015, P. 2.4 <http://www.brixtongreen.org/> How did it come about?

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Fig 1. 2014 London Council Results5

Thus it is inferred that if NHG adopted a co-productive approach to its regeneration projects, it would improve its ability to secure future regeneration work in each of these boroughs where relationships and partnerships are already built up, as well as make it an attractive partner for other Local Councils throughout the rest of London, because Labour controlled Local Councils obviously favour an approach which is resident-led.

With these three benefits taken into account it is clear that co-production could be extremely important to the future success of both NHG regeneration projects and NHG as a regeneration organisation.

Defining Co-production in the Context of Regeneration

As aforementioned Boyle and Harris (2009, P. 16) have not yet been able to formally define co-production, but for the purpose of this report it must be understood what co-production would practically entail for a regeneration project. Using the six principles of co-production (Appendix A) it is possible to adapt it to a regeneration context and make clear what residents living in an area going through regeneration would be enabled to do.

They would;1) Design how their estate would be laid out and how both the new and

refurbished buildings would look by the end of the process.

5 Graphic taken from <http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/londonfacts/elections2014/default.htm#.VKk9ziusVyU>

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Brent

Ealing

Lambeth

2) Access and deliver training in order to advance their own interests.3) Take full responsibility for a range of specific elements of the overall

regeneration.4) Communicate with other residents and with the regeneration

department easily and frequently to come to conclusions in the interests of everyone.

5) Have as much influence over the regeneration as any other person.6) Be empowered throughout the regeneration process in order to realise

their own aspirations.

Now that it is understood what co-production would mean practically for a regeneration project it can be analysed where in the process of regeneration it can take place and recommendations for how it should take place can be made.

Critique of Existing Research

Regarding secondary research, the majority of what is available concerning co-production in housing or community services is based upon theory rather than direct results, this may be due to the fact that co-production is still an emerging concept, as shown by it’s lack of definition. Once projects such as Somerleyton Road have been completed, there will be much more concrete evidence displaying how co-production works most effectively within regeneration projects.

3. Interview Analysis

Although each regeneration project is different, it was clear from the interviews with staff that throughout a NHG regeneration project there is a standard process which takes place. Figure 2 is a process diagram which has been created using the content of those interviews to examine this process and to identify opportunities for co-production. At this point, terms clarified by McDougall (2012) have been used to split the concept of co-production into “co-design” and “co-create” to decipher whether at each stage the resident will be helping to design the regeneration or create it, in McDougall’s opinion it is the combination of both these elements which constitute full co-production.6 Within the diagram green text indicates that it already takes place as part of the NHG Regeneration process, whereas red text indicates that it doesn’t. What is clear from the diagram is that residents are more able to co-design regeneration than co-create it, and are also much more heavily involved at the start of a regeneration process than at the end.

6 Sean McDougall, Co-production, co-design and co-creation: what is the difference? (2012) <http://www.stakeholderdesign.com/co-production-versus-co-design-what-is-the-difference/>

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Fig. 2 – Regeneration Process and Opportunities for Co-Production

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How Can Co-Production Be Effectively Introduced?

Using this knowledge it would be straightforward to suggest that NHG regeneration projects simply implement the items coloured in red. This would satisfy points 1, 2 and 3 of the definition of co-production within the context of regeneration, but points 4, 5 and 6 would still be unfulfilled. In order to meet all six points not only do the options in red need to be implemented but the interviews must be analysed further to find a solution for implementing points 4, 5 and 6.

One theme that all four regeneration staff mentioned was that throughout regeneration projects there is a tendency for only a core minority group of residents to get consistently involved. For example, Jemima Collins (Appendix D) referred to ‘the few’ that get involved during her interview, and Tim Porter (Appendix E) spoke of a particular case at Rectory Park where the involvement of one resident was so high that it put others off attending. This conflicts with point number 5 of the definition of co-production within a regeneration context, which determines that each person has as much

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influence over the regeneration as any other person. If the red options in Figure Two were simply added to the regeneration process, it is the opinion of this report that they would continue this pattern and only be accessed by this core minority.

The regeneration staff (Appendix C, D, E & F) were unsure as to exactly why only a minority of residents tend to get involved as a range of different reasons were given;

Some people have got more time than others Some people just won’t be interested Some may have health problems which make participation difficult Some may have work commitments Our communication may be not effective

It is the last reason which this report is most interested in as this is the one which the department is able to change. Stephen Howlett (Appendix F) talked about the department’s communication most strongly, saying;

“it’s easy enough to get feedback from those people who are interested or who are more vocal and more confident but in order to get a rounded picture, in order to get a full picture of what people’s requirements are and what their expectations are, it takes a lot more digging”.

But all three of the other regeneration staff also mentioned elements of the department’s communication, ‘I think it’s their misunderstanding, maybe it hasn’t been explained’ (Appendix D). ‘Some of the hand-outs and materials we have are a bit rubbish’ (Appendix C). ‘You have to find a route to make sure you get as much resident consultation as you can’ (Appendix E). Correspondingly, both Dawit Kuma (Appendix F) and Adewale Bakare (Appendix G) also mentioned issues with the department’s communication. For example Dawit (Appendix F) described those on the Stockwell Park estate as misinformed and consequently disillusioned, while Adewale (Appendix G) made the point that sometimes the department’s communication can be inconsistent and therefore confusing.

This report believes that it is this link between the department’s communication and overall resident feeling which is key to satisfying points 4, 5 and 6 of the definition of co-production within a regeneration context. This is because effective communication has the potential to give residents;

- Higher influence through more frequent choices.- Equality through multiple accessible communication streams.- Empowerment through the realisation that their voice matters.

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Case Study

To legitimise this claim Knightstone Housing Association can be used as a case study (James, 2012). In 2011 they decided to react to the Localism Bill, the Big Society and the introduction of Welfare Reform agendas, by creating a new service entirely designated to empowering residents called ‘Individual and Community Empowerment (ICE)’. However, it was recognised by Knightstone that the service on its own would not be able to deliver empowerment; their staff would have to be committed to the following for it to work;

- Ensuring resident involvement is a priority for the organisation.- Ensuring all staff are committed to the benefits of resident involvement

and are trained and supported to deliver it.- Providing a variety of ways to get involved and supporting

residents to do so.- Listening to what residents have to say.- Maintaining effective and efficient communication with residents

using a wide range of communication tools.- Showing what a difference involvement has made.- Regularly reviewing how residents can be involved complying with the

law and relevant.

Four of the Seven points (in bold) all constitute part of communicating effectively, and clearly demonstrate that resident empowerment is strongly linked to how a housing association communicates with its residents. From this analysis it is now clear what steps this report will recommend to appropriately introduce co-production.

Critique of Report Methodology

Although this report has tried to carry out in-depth research it is realised that the case study above only represents one other housing association, therefore the reliability of the above findings may be questionable. Further to this the primary research used to write this report could also have been improved, as despite two of the interviewee’s living on Stockwell Park estate, the opinions of a larger and more diverse group of residents would have been beneficial, and in-keeping with the concept of co-production.

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4. Recommendations

First RecommendationArrange a co-production awareness workshop for the Regeneration Department and wider Development Department to formally introduce co-production and emphasise the importance of effective resident involvement.

ExplanationIn this reports opinion this needs to take place first because it is believed that staff need to understand co-production and agree that a move towards implementing it should happen before they are asked to operate in a different matter. Without their consent it is unlikely that any attempt to implement co-production will be successful, this workshop will decide if and how the department is going to introduce it.

Strengths:• Creates continuity within the whole Development Department about the

importance of resident involvement in regeneration projects.• Gives regeneration staff a good opportunity to understand how co-

production works best within a regeneration project.

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• Provides a good opportunity for trouble-shooting to take place before co-production is introduced and discover whether everyone agrees with the findings of this report.

Weaknesses:• It is unlikely that all members of staff would be able to attend at the

same time in the same place, due to the nature of the Development Department’s work.

• Has the potential to cause divisions within the Development Department as some members of staff may be more interested than others.

Second RecommendationTo create an entrenched opinion recognition process to ensure that all views given by residents are recorded, responded to and ultimately fully utilised.

Explanation This is a major part of supporting infrastructure which will make the introduction of co-production worthwhile and possible. If residents start to participate on a much larger scale with no system set up to; log, monitor and assess the results of it then the information and input from residents will be lost.

Strengths:• Will allow for the views of residents to be analysed and considered

before implementation.• Allows the Regeneration Department to justify their decisions and

actions to residents. • Gives structure to the introduction of co-production meaning something

physical is created and continues to evolve a result of it, making co-production seem like less of an ideal and more of a reality.

Weaknesses:• Will take time to set up and maintain.• There is a risk that it will not be updated regularly and will therefore

break data protection legislation, become unrepresentative and unhelpful.

Third RecommendationTo improve the communication of the department by building several new access points, and using each to provide residents with regular updates, choices and chances to get involved.

Explanation

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It is this report’s opinion that effective communication between residents themselves and the Regeneration Department can ensure that residents have an empowered and equal say throughout the regeneration process. Some possible forums which should be explored include; E-mail, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, home visits, a designated phone line for regeneration projects, community champions and the contact centre.

Strengths:• Allows the Regeneration department to be responsive to a wider range

of tenants, promoting equal contribution amongst all residents.• Allows for reciprocal relationships with residents to be built, as

residents understand us better and we understand them better. Training needs and training providers will then be better matched.

• Helps inform and re-assure tenants, to reduce the risk of scandal or disillusionment from taking place.

• Will keep residents engaged throughout the regeneration process rather than just at the start.

• Can promote a more holistic view of the entire community. • A number of online communication streams are easily set up in just a

few minutes.

Weaknesses:• Risk that some of the new communication streams will not be used by

residents and will therefore deteriorate.• Responding to tenants, making information and choices available and

facilitating the communication streams will increase the department’s workload.

• There are rules which may limit how the Regeneration Department can communicate online, reducing its overall effectiveness.

• If more home visits are to be organised then lone-worker training may have to be undertaken for some staff.

Fourth RecommendationTo be considered on a project by project basis. To allow residents to choose an appropriate architect and contractor, to introduce building site visits and to get residents involved in the snagging process that takes place before a new building is handed over.

ExplanationOnce trust has been built up by the residents that they are being listened to through the various communication streams available to them, various ways for them to have influence throughout the regeneration process should be

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introduced. The proposals above are initial suggestions; it may not be possible for them to take place on each regeneration scheme, while other opportunities may become available.

Strengths:• Promotes holistic view of the community rather than residents just

focusing on their own block.• Ensures that residents take responsibility for specific elements of the

regeneration.• Keeps residents interested and involved for the entirety of a

regeneration project.

Weaknesses:• These opportunities are open to abuse; residents must be made aware

of the consequences of their decisions. • Will take a vast amount of organisation and resource to ensure that

these opportunities are attended and useful for residents.• As the suggestions above are flexible and not proposed to become part

of a formal process, it would be possible for them to become forgotten as a scheme moves forward.

5. Conclusion

From the analysis undertaken in this report it has become clear that co-production is about a lot more than simply giving residents the opportunity to get involved in a regeneration project, co-production requires residents to be empowered and to be treated equally throughout a regeneration process. This report believes the most effective way for NHG to do this is to vastly improve the ways it communicates with residents. It should do so by creating multiple communication streams in and out of the department, allowing NHG to overcome the common problem of only involving a minority in a regeneration process and maximise the number of residents involved instead. Furthermore, through tight monitoring, a united approach towards co-production and fast response times, these communication streams will enable NHG to build up strong relationships with their residents, relationships which will make its regeneration projects more capable in delivering improved economic, physical, social and environmental conditions (Roberts and Sykes, 2005) and make NHG a more attractive organisation to Local Councils in the future.

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Word Count: 3299.

Bibliography

• Boyle, D. and Harris, M. Challenge Paper: The Challenge of Co-Production (2009).

• Boyle, D. Clark, S. and Burns, S. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation – Co-production by people outside paid employment (2006) <http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/0356.pdf>

• Brown, C. Estate Renewal – Community Coproduction? (2014) <http://chrisbrown.placemakingresource.com/2014/11/10/estate-renewal-community-coproduction/>

• Jackson, M. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation – Addressing Poverty Through Local Governance (2013) <http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/poverty-local-governance-summary.pdf>

• James, V. Case Study: Individual and Community Empowerment: Getting personal to deliver change (2012)<http://www.housinglin.org.uk/_library/Resources/Housing/Practice_examples/Housing_LIN_case_studies/HLIN_CaseStudy_61_ICE.pdf>

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• McDougall, S. Co-production, co-design and co-creation: what is the difference? (2012) <http://www.stakeholderdesign.com/co-production-versus-co-design-what-is-the-difference/>

• <http://www.brixtongreen.org/> How did it come about?

• Robbins, P. ‘Rebuilding Communities From The Bottom Up’ in Co-operative Capital – Creating a City That Works For Londoners (2014) pp. 38 – 43. <https://party.coop/wp-content/blogs.dir/5/files/2014/09/co-operative-capital-final-05-09-14.pdf>

• http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/londonfacts/elections2014/ default.htm#.VKk9ziusVyU

• Network Housing Group Five Year Strategy (2014)

• New Economic Foundation, Co-production: theory and practice https://prezi.com/eitdkeaoly8t/co-production-theory-and-practice/

Appendix A: The Six Principles of Co-ProductionAll taken from; New Economic Foundation, Co-production: theory and

practice https://prezi.com/eitdkeaoly8t/co-production-theory-and-practice/

1) Recognising people as assets – Transforming the perception of people from passive recipients of services and burdens on the system into one where they are equal partners in designing and delivering services.

2) Building on people’s capabilities – Altering the delivery model of public services from a deficit approach to one that recognises and grows people’s capabilities and actively supports them to put them at use to an individual and community level. Everyone has something to give; co-production is about recognising and nurturing all our talents.

3) Developing two-way, reciprocal, relationships – Offering people a range of ways in which they can contribute to the running of a project, enabling them to work in reciprocal relationships with professionals and with each other, where there are mutual responsibilities and expectations.

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4) Encouraging peer support – Engaging peer and personal networks and support, alongside professional support, as the best way of transferring knowledge and building people’s confidence and capabilities.

5) Blurring distinctions – Removing tightly defined boundaries between professionals and recipients, and between producers and consumers of services, by reconfiguring the ways in which services are developed and delivered.

6) Facilitating not delivering – Recognising that outcomes cannot be delivered to, or for, people, but are achieved with them. This changes the culture of providing organisations. Their main goal is to enable people to articulate and realise their own goals.

Appendix B: Methodology

Both primary and secondary research was undertaken to compile this report;

Primary research

In total six interviews were conducted in person in private meeting rooms with Network Housing Group Staff. Four of those interviews were with senior members of the Regeneration Department, and two are with employees in other parts of the organisation who are also residents on the Stockwell Park estate. The interviewee’s were as follows;

Tim Porter – Head of Regeneration Stephen Howlett – Senior Regeneration Manager Tim Goodwin – Regeneration Manager Jemima Collins – Regeneration Resident Liaison Officer Dawit Kuma – Resident & Health and Safety Data Inputter Adewale Bakare – Resident & Aftercare Assistant

I decided to set questions so as to give the interviews structure, and to ensure that the evidence received from the interviews was comparable, but was happy to move away from these questions if it seemed appropriate. I also asked the resident staff different set questions to the other members of staff

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so as to get their opinions as residents rather than employees. The two sets of questions are listed below.

Set Interview Questions for Tim Goodwin, Jemima Collins, Tim Porter and Steven Howlett

1. Please can you briefly outline how residents presently take part in Network Housing Group’s regeneration projects from beginning to end?

2. What is your opinion of how our residents participate within regeneration projects?

3. Could you outline what you think the major barriers to resident participation are?

4. What effect do you think resident participation has on Network Housing Group? What would a decrease and an increase entail?

5. What effect do you think resident participation has on regeneration schemes? What would a decrease and an increase entail?

6. Are you familiar with the concept of “Co-production”?- Explanation of “Co-production”:- “Co-production” means delivering public services in an equal and

reciprocal relationship between; professionals, people using services, their families and their neighbours. It is a move away from “doing for” or “doing to” and is a move towards “doing with”. It involves services being designed and delivered in partnership.

7. What is your first impression of this concept?

8. Do you think “Co-production” already exists within our regeneration projects, and if so how?

9. Do you think “Co-production” could realistically be introduced into regeneration projects?

If Yes –

10. How do you think it should be introduced?

11. Do you foresee barriers to introducing it?

If No –

12. Why do you think it can’t be introduced?

13. Would you be interested in finding out more about “Co-production”?

14. Would you be interested in helping to implement “Co-production”?

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Set Interview Questions for Dawit Kuma and Adewale Bakare

1. Please can you tell me how long you have lived on the Stockwell Park Estate?

2. And how long have you worked at Community Trust Housing?

3. What opportunities have you been given to get involved in the regeneration?

4. Do you feel involved in the regeneration?

5. Using your knowledge of other residents, do think they feel involved in the regeneration?

6. Are you familiar with the concept of “Co-production”?

7. Explanation of “Co-production”:“Co-production” means delivering public services in an equal and reciprocal relationship between; professionals, people using services, their families and their neighbours. It is a move away from “doing for” or “doing to” and is a move towards “doing with”. It involves services being designed and delivered in partnership.

8. What is your first impression of this concept?

9. Do you think “Co-production” already exists within our regeneration projects, and if so how?

10.Do you think “Co-production” could realistically be introduced into regeneration projects?

If Yes –

11.How do you think it should be introduced?

12.Do you foresee barriers to introducing it?

If No –

13.Why do you think it can’t be introduced?

14.Would you be interested in finding out more about “Co-production”?

15.Would you be interested in helping to implement “Co-production”?

Full transcripts of each of the interviews have been included in the appendix.

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Secondary research

In order to expand my understanding of co-production as a concept, examine how co-production has been used in other regeneration projects, and attempt to find innovative ways of introducing it to NHG’s regeneration projects I have read;

Academic journals and books. Publications by other housing associations. Online blog’s by housing professionals. Government reports. Newspaper articles.

Appendix C:

Full Interview Transcript Tim Goodwin (TG) – Regeneration Manager interviewed by Jonathan

Buck (JB) on the 9th of December 2014

JB – Can you briefly outline how residents presently take part in Network Housing Group’s regeneration projects from beginning to end? In a brief manner, I know it differs…

TG – Yeah, well regeneration I think, personally I think by definition is a scheme where you are dealing with existing residents, and therefore… and secondly be definition they are schemes where the homes are seriously under-standard. So the first issue that results from that is, err the people who live in those homes know best what is wrong with them, or have the experience over time of what, what success or otherwise maintenance or programmes of repair, have achieved or haven’t achieved, and they also have all of those aspects of understanding to do with neighbourhood anti-social behaviour, with issues about access to schools, or access to welfare, or access to police support and so on. And so, uniquely, and quite unlike looking at maybe a new-build site that you want to re-develop or looking at a vacant building, uniquely, you will only succeed in the transformation of an area if you address those issues by learning from the residents what they think. What then follows is that wherever you are going to seek funding or support for that

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scheme; if you’re going to a planning authority, if you’re going to a funding authority, then you find by doing it with the support of those residents you are in a hugely stronger position to succeed in whatever you are planning, your, your, your aiming to do. So, I see that resident engagement as life or death for those schemes from the outset. And then clearly then going forward as you start to develop a particular scheme, along with all sorts of other interested parties obviously, those residents input into what’s built, then inform a transformation that delivers something that is sustainable in the long-term.

JB – Right, okay, erm that’s really good, erm could you detail the specific ways that residents can get involved in a project? Either right at the start or towards the end.

TG – yeah, so we, we look at both formal and informal ways for their getting involved. So in terms of formalities, it is quite helpful to do short and sharp kind of questionnaires that gather peoples opinions, we also do much fuller surveys, they have a slightly different purpose, in that they evaluate the housing needs and household composition and so on, but that’s a slightly different issue. But not all people are comfortable in a kind of written form-filling approach, so it’s vitally important in my view, that there is a lot of 1-1 personal contact with residents. We often do that by opening a temporary or a permanent site office on the scheme, having people there on a regular and reliable basis, allowing individuals to drop in and it’s remarkable what a difference that makes, in that the residents see it as, they see that you are putting your money where your mouth is in a sense, or they see that you’re putting yourself there on the spot, and they can pop in on the way to and from school, they can ask you questions, so alongside those you can and I think should look at a structured process of involvement, so you know you issue newsletters, you might organise drop-in sessions or formal planned design meetings where the residents are involved or meetings where the residents are enlisted to support the negotiation you are undertaking with the local Authority or whatever it is.

JB – Right, okay, I was just wondering if I could get your opinion on resident participation, in terms of, are you sort of happy with it, what in your ideal world would happen and where are we now?

TG – I think there are some serious erm ideological issues about the way we approach it in Network. We had the instance recently we were promoting a new regen scheme and there was a lively debate, shall we say between two schools of thought. One of which was that we should not let the residents have any knowledge of our thinking about demolition and new build, unless or until we had secured grant funding, and the potential alternative view to that is that, in order to secure grant funding and to secure grant funding for the right scheme resident consultation is essential, along the lines of the previous remarks I made. So we had an interesting debate about that, and it does point towards to some thinking that needs to take place, there are legitimate issues about what stage we begin to commit serious resources to resident involvement, as you can easily spend a small fortune over a large period of years, as many local authorities have done, looking at how to transform their

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existing estate, but we do have to address that question ourselves. That said, I think there are lots of things about how we do the resident involvement, once we start which we should certainly sharpen up on, in terms of the quality of our presentation, resources we have available to the teams, how we manage that resident engagement in terms, of sort of viewing each resident, taking an approach to each resident whereby we build up a profile of their needs and circumstances. So there is a few areas where we could, definitely, definitely improve, some of the hand-outs and materials we have is a bit rubbish.

JB – Okay, my next question is, could you outline, I know you have already expressed the ideological barriers that come with getting residents our involved, but are there major barriers that stand out for you to getting residents involved, can you detail some of those?

TG – Well, there are lots of issues, one is that residents have no reason to get involved, unless that involvement serves some purpose. And you’ll therefore always find the majority of people on a particular scheme or estate, have no expectation that anything will come of the process that is going on. Erm and in that you’re looking at the core also of a schism between those people who are actively involved and those who are not. The ones that are actively involved are on the committee or residents association panel, and they can’t understand the other people not taking part, they are people for whom different motivations come into play, power perhaps or self-esteem or whatever, so there’s some interesting dynamics which we have to deal with there, to my mind the important thing is that we resist joining the cynicism of the tired activist committee members, it is important that we appreciate what life is like for people in poor homes; they may have as a result of that health problems, they may be over-crowded, they may have work commitments understandably, that make it difficult for them to participate, even if they were minded to and so it’s very important that we think through all the ways in which they are reached and contacted and brought into the process.

JB – Right, erm my next question is what effect do you think resident participation has on Network Housing Group? What effects would a decrease or an increase have?

TG – Right, in Network as a whole resident involvement is challenging because as a whole the organisation has a widely dispersed stock of homes so you do get quite different characteristics of resident involvement where you’ve got localised estates of a particular kind. Network needs more involvement but it needs involvement of the right kind, and I think there are problems with some of the structures that are set up. For example, having individual residents on to panels that are over-seeing maintenance or other aspects of the running of the housing management side. Because they may or not be well empowered through that process to make a difference in how it works. So the key thing is finding appropriate involvement and supporting and encouraging that. And that may be, it may be that you focus that around positive things, so for example if as an organisation, you have set up some funds to be dispensed to projects, like the shed project or whatever it is, rather than maybe getting some residents in and encouraging them to mark

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maintenance contractors for the next years maintenance programme, which can be guaranteed to drive them bananas. To have them in though to actively contribute to decisions about which community groups get minor grants whatever is a more empowering thing, it’s giving them a decision to make which is, which ties in with their experience and their knowledge.

JB – Right, okay I was wondering what effect you think resident participation has on regeneration schemes, but you’ve gone into that already, but say, resident participation was to decrease substantially what effect do you think that would have on a regeneration scheme?

TG – You need people on your side, first of all you need to know what you’re going to be doing, and that’s where resident involvements important, and second of all you need them on your side, because as your regen scheme progresses you are ripping their homes and neighbourhoods to bits, you are disrupting their peace and quiet on a Saturday morning, and first thing in the morning, so you need them on board. If you don’t take the trouble to maintain that involvement, then you’ll get increased levels of complaints, and increased dissatisfaction with the finished product, and increased resistance to anything you want to do.

JB – Right, that makes perfect sense, okay now I am going to introduce this concept of co-production erm it’s something which has been spreading through the third sector in particular and it’s focused on delivering public service in an equal and reciprocal relationship between; professionals, people using the services, their families and their neighbours. It is a move away from doing for or doing to and is a move towards doing with. It involves services being designed in co-operation and delivered in a partnership. Are you familiar with this?

TG – I’ve never heard that particular expression, so that’s interesting.

JB – I’m just interested to know what your first impression is of hearing that, whatever comes to mind.

TG – Yes, we err, we do have distinct interests, from certain points of view, and so err when we’re looking at a development scheme it may well be, that the residents have, for example in Rectory Park, the residents want to have many more parking bays, then they have at present, or that we planned and had approved, so they’d like to have err 1 or 2 parking bays per property, from our point of view if we provided that many parking bays, it would be A) a concrete jungle and B) potentially not good for them in the long run, but it would also breach the planners requirements. To be honest, there are always aspects of a scheme where we keep our cards close to our chest, and we manage the way in which residents are involved in those particular aspects. There a lots examples of this, when the first part of Rectory park was going through, decisions had to be made to reduce some aspects of the specification, so the windows that were fitted were not perhaps as slick or as expensive as those that you see in some of the other schemes that Network’s done. Had we left the decision on windows to the residents they would’ve

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picked windows probably costing half a million pounds more than those that were used. So there is a real sense in which we aren’t reaching all those decision with the residents. We are coming up with a product if you like that we try and package and sell, which we genuinely hope has been informed by their views and their opinions in the first place.

JB – Right, that’s good, do you think that co-production already exists at all, or do you think it always boils down to issues of budget and whatever, and that means that ultimately it can’t be part of regeneration?

TG – No, No, I think it’s a valuable principle, although it couldn’t be applied to absolutely everything. To give you a couple of examples; at the next meeting of the resident design panel at Rectory Park, we want to present to them samples of the types and appearance of brick colours that are planned for the next phase, we want to discuss with them the plan and the layout and the uses for the community centre on the scheme which will be devoted, and those are genuine areas, in every respect if we did not have the residents engagement and support, we would be in difficulty, and I think we can go wholly with their preferences as far as the community centre is concerned, but we will have to be frank with them that the centre has to be financially viable, and to be financially viable it can’t just be devoted to uneconomic activity all the time.

JB – Yup, okay, erm okay erm do you think there are any areas that don’t encourage co-production that could in the future? Is that a bit of a loaded question potentially, or do you think we are doing it as much as possible?

TG – No I think probably we throw a lot of resources into the transformation and development of schemes and it may be the case that when they are finished the residents are exhausted and don’t want to engage further, and it’s certainly the case that we are to some extent and we race on to the next project, but I think that there could be a greater opportunity for aspects of that full engagement to continue after buildings and schemes are completed. I mean I used to work on Tenant Management Organisations and so in a sense that’s about a very radical approach in terms of anything Network would consider which simply involves the resident group of a particular project being empowered and having the management and control of a budget for the maintenance of their homes delegated to them to oversee. That in a way would be a good instance of co-production in practice, and schemes of that kind have in recent years have not been fashionable, but I’m still in touch with a lot of the co-operative groups that I was involved with setting up in the 1980s and they continue to thrive and do well to this day.

JB – And then, final couple of questions, the first of which is would you be interested in finding out more about co-production through Network, is it something you’d be happy to read up a bit more about or take part in?

TG – Yes I would.

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JB – And potentially would you be interested in helping to implement co-production within Network.

TG – Yes I would, actually I was approached at the summer fun day, by one of the new councillors in Ealing who is formally the director of an agency that worked on promoting Housing co-operatives, who I know well from previous jobs, and he was very interested in coming and talking to me and talking to Network, about how we might promote some innovative Housing schemes where residents would be involved, so I think there is lots of interesting possible ideas, and if we’ve got maybe in that sort of instance a partner from a Local Authority whose keen to put the resources and the Local Authority behind it, then it could be very interesting.

JB – Right well that’s that, thank you very much, that’s all I need.

TG – Ahh okay, no, that’s a pleasure.

Appendix D:

Full Interview Transcript Jemima Collins (JC) – Regeneration Resident Liaison Officer

interviewed by Jonathan Buck (JB) on the 11th of December 2014

JB – Can I get you to briefly outline how residents presently take part in Network Housing Group’s Regeneration project from beginning to end?

JC – erm, our residents in general?

JB – Yeah

JC – erm do you mean the opportunities they have?

JB – Yeah

JC – Okay, so basically our residents can get involved with many things to do with CTH or Network in general – and do you mean in employment?

JB – Doesn’t have to be employment, in terms of how they are involved in the regeneration, obviously they go through consultation, erm and they can go on

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to certain like boards and things but yeah just so the process that allows them to get involved.

JC – Okay so, if they are residents which are actually being moved out of properties, we try to involve our residents as much as possible, because this is the place where they are coming back to live, so we do want as much input from our residents. So basically we would write to them, and invite them to come and basically view different aspects of the development of their new building. And so basically they can come in and have a look at our architectural drawings, they can come in and discuss with us, the options they have about where they are going to be moved to or how different it’s going to be from the property they have lived in before, they can voice their concerns, and also have very valid input into the design, or issues they may have had before, so that we can avoid the same problems they have had with their previous property. It’s basically we, the whole design element of the properties are based around what our residents need, not just what we want to design for the estate, or for the residents themselves. So basically we will have a couple of drop-in sessions where they can at every point there will be a slight change maybe in the design or erm we will give them the opportunity to discuss in more detail what we are actually doing and what we can try to achieve for our residents. At a later stage, once the building starts to come together, we will ask our residents what they would like in their homes, whether it be choosing the; kitchen units and bathroom units, they do have an input, basically out of a couple of choices they get to decide to design their own home internally. Obviously externally it’s designed by the architects, but internally they can have their own print. Our residents really love the fact that they get to choose their own flooring, colour of their walls, the actual units themselves, all the small details that anyone would want to do in their own home, they get to do that, and then they add their own belongings, furniture and everything later.

JB – Okay, do they get a choice in terms of choosing the architect or the contractor, do they get any say on that or is that an executive decision?

JC – That’s definitely a decision made from the top, but once we have chosen an architect our residents do get to get involved in the design element, and they are 100% taken on-board because it’s really important. But obviously design elements will be based more on what our development department want to try and achieve.

JB – Okay and in terms of employment, as you mentioned earlier, how is that ingrained into the process?

JC – Could you explain that a bit more?

JB – Yeah, so I know there are opportunities for residents to become involved as apprentices either for us or on-site, and I’m just wondering how that process works?

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JC – Well because I originally started in customer services I remember when we first started getting involved with our residents, they would come in and complete application forms, just stating their experiences and what they were interested in, what kind of development they would like, and what support they need; whether it be childcare, financial, those things, we’ll help them go through college. But basically it’s been really, really successful, there have been a number of our residents who have been given apprentice jobs on site, whether it be; decorating, brick-laying, electricians, they’ve been given posts, and some of them have got permanent work out of it. So I believe it’s been really successful, as I walk around the estate I’m seeing a lot of our residents, wearing the hard hat and seeming very involved in their new role. It’s been I think very successful.

JB – My next question was what is your opinion of how residents participate currently in regeneration. Do you think it’s a good level of participation?

JC – I think there is a fairly good level of participation definitely with our residents, the only thing is that no matter how much time you spend trying to communicate with residents very few will get involved, the few that do get involved our very very successful and happy, but I think we still need to work on how to get through to the residents that don’t take up these opportunities, because it’s really really beneficial for everyone, for them to get back into employment and for us to basically seem like we are part of the same team. So I think there are more opportunities that residents could grasp, I think there’s still some work to be done.

JB – Okay, it leads perfectly on to my next question, which is what do you think are the main barriers for residents getting involved?

JC – I think some of the residents are concerned about losing benefits, maybe childcare.

JB – How would they lose benefits from getting involved in the regeneration project?

JC – I think it’s their misunderstanding, maybe it hasn’t been explained that they wouldn’t lose all of their housing benefit, it depends if the apprenticeship work is fully-paid, if it’s fully-paid it will interfere somehow with their housing benefit, because they are employed, and obviously they don’t want to risk it unless it’s 100% worth it, but at the same time they would be working, getting a qualification, and you would leave the situation you were in before, and hopefully would be more successful by taking employment with us. It would direct you to another company that may be they’d be more interested in working with. I think possibly to do with childcare, housing benefit issues, maybe just a history of maybe being used to not working, and maybe being a little bit unsure about taking the next steps towards changing their lifestyle and their future possibly.

JB - And in terms of barriers to not just employment but getting people to come to the design meeting and things, are there barriers to those or?

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JC – To be honest I write to so many residents inviting them to come and be involved, come and see what’s happening on your estate, what’s going to happen to your building. The ones that turn up are really really enthusiastic, they are very on-board, very interested, want to be invited to every single meeting, and the ones that don’t come, they say they will come, but they just don’t turn up, I don’t know if it’s because it just seems to far away for them to be interested in it yet, it’s still early days, when they start to see bricks going down, and start to see visually what’s happening on the estate, then they’ll take more of an interest, but in the early stages there is a lack of interest.

JB – hmm, because I know at the Ridgeway we had a huge turn-out, what do you think went well there, because I know not everyone came but a big proportion of the estate did.

JC – I think with the Ridgeway, the residents are 100%, or nearly 100% behind the project because they are really unhappy with their homes or the area they live in. They just seem more involved because they can see exactly what needs to be done. It could possibly mean some of them aren’t working, or they manage to work their life around the meeting so that they can definitely be there.

JB – Okay, my next question is what effect do you think resident participation has on Network Housing Group, what effect would an increase or a decrease have, essentially what I’m trying to get at here is do you think resident participation is good for Network Housing Group or do you think it is bad?

JC – I think it’s always good, always good to have resident input, because at the end of the day they live here, we don’t live here, so it’s so important to get their opinions, learn about how it affects their lives, how it may improve their lives – this information will definitely have to come from them. I think 100% residents have to be involved as much as possible, and that’s the only way really that we can get their side of what their needs are, so that you can take that forward and obviously involve that in the concept of what our plans are.

JB – My next question was basically the same, the effect it has on regeneration, I’d imagine it would be the same sort of thing.

JC – Very important, yeah.

JB – So, there’s this concept of co-production which I’m just going to introduce now, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it before?

JC – No

JB – No Problem, basically, it’s a concept which has kind of swept through not-for-profit, charitable organisations in the last sort of few years really. It’s got really big, what it means is, it focuses on delivering services in an equal and reciprocal relationship between the professionals, the people using the services, their families and their neighbours. So it’s kind of a move away from

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doing for or doing to people and instead it’s a move towards doing with, and it involves services being designed and then delivered in partnership with the people using them. So I don’t know how that strikes you, what’s your first impression of that as a concept?

JC – Yeah, no, I think it’s a very sound idea to involve, it’s like basically a partnership, so that you come together with the same, if anything agreeable ideas, yeah I think it’s a very good idea to come together and make it more about everybody, than you doing it for someone, them having their own involvement, will mean that they will have power, just as you would have the power. It sounds like a good idea.

JB – Just as an example, if you were in a disability charity for example, I think it’s occurred to people that those without a disability probably aren’t the right people to be designing services for people with one – so that’s where it’s come from. Do you think co-production exists within regeneration projects?

JC – I think it does, but maybe it’s not very clear, but you can see there is something going to that’s trying to achieve, I can see that’s what we are trying to achieve with the residents having the involvement with us, because there is no point designing something that we would want to live in because it doesn’t meet their needs and their standards. We need to be working closely with them, and try to choose something that they need. Yeah it makes sense.

JB – Okay, and do you think the idea of co-production within a regeneration scale is realistic, or do you think it could be unrealistic?

JC – I think it’s possible, it is possible, probably based on money and time, but I think there is room for it. I definitely think you can achieve this, maybe start of small, and it might be something that you gradually introduce to other departments not just regeneration, but erm I think it is possible.

JB – Okay, can you see anywhere where it could be introduced or should be introduced?

JC – In regeneration only?

JB – Yeah, erm well not specifically, I think it lends itself quite well to regeneration but if you see somewhere else where you think it could work then good, don’t worry if not.

JC – I mean the example you gave with the disability, we do have residents that have disabilities on the estate, so working closely with residents like that or may be elder residents, working closely with them to try and achieve things they would benefit from, I think that there’s room for that.

JB – Okay, and do you foresee any barriers to introducing it, or, I mean we’ve talked about the barriers of getting residents involved at all, so I imagine a lot of them would re-appear.

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JC – It’s quite a difficult one because we do have residents who are very very involved in certain aspects of housing, obviously they are allowed to be involved, those particular people have chosen, put themselves forward, and been chosen to participate. And the ones who could have that kind of involvement, I’m not too sure why they just don’t get involved enough. There is definitely a strength in people getting involved, residents getting involved, the estate getting involved in making decisions or having an input.

JB – I’m interested to know whether or not residents feel as though, if they give their opinion whether it is actually listened to, because essentially what co-production is all about is empowering people, and I’m just wondering if you think that might be an element of why some people don’t get involved, because it’s like if I go and I spend an hour…

JC – I think that’s with everything, even like with voting, you just think that you’re not going to be taken seriously or you are just going to be another statistic but not really be taken seriously. Yeah, that’s a possibility, I think in general that kind of feeling comes about. I have spoken to residents and they have mentioned things like that, y’know “even though I’m saying this you’re not going to put this forward” to try and re-assure residents is going to be a very slow process but there’s definitely a possibility that this could work. I think they just need to believe in us as well, believe we are going to do as we say, and if they could recognise elements of what they have suggested, and visually see that, I think gradually they will trust us more. I think it’s believing that we are going to do what we’re saying we’re going to do attitude.

JB – Okay, I’ve just got two smaller questions to ask, if this all does take-off would you be interested in finding out more about co-production in the future potentially?

JC – Yes because that would help me with my job, because obviously I communicate with residents on a daily basis, and feedback from them and working closely with them would obviously help with resolving issues quicker, maybe even avoiding having problems in the first place. But erm, that is something I would be interested in – Yes.

JB – And, then again if it really took of, would you be interested in helping to implement co-production?

JC – Yes, if it stills works within my job. I am sure that there is somewhere that I could involve the co-production into my role, my daily role, yeah I’d take the opportunity and get involved.

JB – Perfect, okay that’s brilliant, thank you very very much – that’s it.

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Appendix E:

Full Interview TranscriptTim Porter (TP) – Head of Regeneration interviewed by Jonathan Buck

(JB) on the 11th of December 2014

JB – Okay so my first question is just how, err could you briefly explain how residents participate in the regeneration projects presently from err sort of start to finish, how can they get involved? TP – err I suppose ultimately if we take this project in Stockwell, I suppose pre-any plans being developed they would have been consulted on what they think of the estate currently, what their aspirations are for the estate in the future, and what they think that looks like. Usually that would inform the designer, who in turn would then go off and try and interpret some of those ideas within obviously constraints, budget, site boundaries etc. and then that would again come back to the residents for their input, usually done through a steering group, rather than all of the residents for obvious reasons, so once I suppose the design starts to take shape on this particular project because it is divided up in to several phases, we would’ve… there would’ve been a master-planning exercise, so they would have been consulted on the overall master

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plan and then as each individual project comes forward they would have been consulted on their input on each individual project, the affordable tenants, the leaseholders and the wider community as well, and depending on what the project is, whether it is a refurbishment or a new build, obviously if it is a new build then there will be a decanting exercise so they are then involved in that process of assisting the moving out to wherever they are going. If it’s, if it’s going to be a refurbishment then clearly they need to be involved in the process as it goes along, and to make sure they are not unduly affected by the works going on around them. I think the one bit which we don’t necessarily do enough of is that follow up consultation, you know 2 years, 3 years after the project has finished we might have a meeting with them shortly after its a finished, but we need to look at the longer term view because ultimately somebody who has moved in to a brand new house or has a new refurbishment is going to be over the moon and excited, well yeah, but I think it’s after a number of years where they really start to pick up on issues that we can hopefully use going forward.

JB – So, in your opinion currently, not just on this project (Stockwell Park) but it can be this one, what is your opinion of how residents participate; do you think there’s a good level or a bad level?

TP – Err, I think there is a mixture, often that consultation or their participation tends to focus on their individual circumstances rather than somebody taking a global view of what the project is going to look like. That’s never going to change, we probably do need to find better ways and mechanisms of feeding in that global view, absolutely, but at the moment, I think that probably most of that consultation, and their participation is focused very much around their own personal circumstances, whether it be at the beginning of the project or when their particular phase of the project is happening, that’s always going to be there, you’re never going to diminish that it’s just finding that global view in some shape or form.

JB – Is that something that will need to happen right from the start, if you’re going to introduce or encourage people to participate?

TP – Yeah, I think it’s also about encouraging, providing the residents with particular focus training on what they should be, obviously each individual has their own circumstances as well, but I think you know if you’ve got a residents association then they need to take a global view rather than something specific, and I suppose it’s up to us to do that with training or whatever.

JB – That’s interesting, can you… do you think there are particular barriers to residents getting involved across most schemes, are the same sort of things cropping up that prevent people from getting involved?

TP – Well I suppose if Coronation Street is on, probably that’s one barrier, if you are having the meeting at 7:30 on whatever day it’s on. No I think we obviously have to try and make the consultation as resident focused as you can, otherwise it ain’t gonna happen, so if you decide to stick yourself in a

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room at 10 O’clock in the morning then clearly residents aren’t… the ones that are working aren’t going to turn up and probably a lot of others won’t turn up either. So you have to find a route to make sure you get as much resident consultation as you can.

JB – Other than just consultation are there other ways that residents can get involved? I know we spoke about… or what you said about the boards and things, but in terms of residents actually becoming employed by Network; I know that we’ve got a few who have come into CTH as a result of the regeneration programme potentially. TP – Yeah, sorry I thought we were just focusing on consultation, but you know obviously there are other areas where they can get involved in the regen in their area it doesn’t have to be through a residents association, there can be other you know sort of resident focused things where there can be training and apprenticeship initiatives, some sort of club for younger people or whatever, but I suppose ultimately that has to be a very much bottom-up approach rather than a top-down approach. For us to say we are going to build a men shed on every project, some may work but others may fail, because unless residents buy-in then it’s not going to work. So clearly a bottom-up approach is the only approach.

JB – Right, so, what effects do you think resident participation has on Network Housing Group and if there was a substantial decrease or an increase were to happen, what effect do you think that would have? TP – Ultimately, it’s a time-consuming exercise so clearly there are calls on people’s time, and to do it right, if you don’t spend the time you ain’t going to get it right. Clearly we have to invest in those processes otherwise they aren’t going to work, and that is a staffing-resource issue, but also you know I think we can be smarter, rather than just sticking someone in a room to consult residents, you know we have a contact centre which our residents probably call on a regular basis so why not ask them then, you know as well as their maintenance issue, we could ask them questions on what they think about their estate, how they are getting involved, how they aren’t getting involved, so there are smarter ways of doing things.

JB – And it is a similar sort of question, what sort of effect resident participation has on regeneration schemes and if there was a substantial increase or decrease do you think that would have a major effect on the scheme?

TP – Certainly if there was a decrease, it has a huge impact, because we are then just in effect doing it for ourselves, which is not necessarily the right way of doing it. Ultimately we have to find a way of engaging and involving residents in regen work, because we go home at 5 O’clock and they have to live there permanently, so we can’t be leaving a mess behind us, we have to leave something which they value and cherish and want to look after and get involved in, I think the worst kind of estate that you could live on is where nobody comes out of the front door, you want people to come out of their front

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doors and get involved, so the more activities you can create for that interaction – the better. So if we are not putting the effort in then they aren’t going to come out of their front door.

JB – Okay so, I’m just going to introduce this concept of co-production, I don’t know if you are familiar with it? TP – Yeah. JB – So it means how, or the definition that the New Economic Foundation offers and I think they are the ones that came up with it. It means delivering public services in an equal and reciprocal relationship, so between professionals and residents on this occasion, so there is a partnership and with the neighbours and their families. So rather doing to people, it’s a move towards doing it with them. So it involves services being designed and then delivered in partnership. It’s a concept which has really been used within charities, for example if you were in a disability charity, it’s not really good practice to have your entire staff made up of people who don’t have a disability designing a service for people who do, so it is all about incorporating who are actively going to be involved in to that design element and into the delivery element. So I am just wondering what your first impression is of this concept?

TP – To be honest, there are lots of other words for co-production, but the bottom line is if you design a service for anybody, that doesn’t have user involvement, unless you are in a totally capitalist, commercial world where you stick two fingers up to the rest of the world and say look this is how I am going to deliver it and I’m going to make the most profit then you ain’t going to be in business for too long. I think I mentioned to you before, earlier in the discussion, y’know we have a ideal opportunity – having a contact centre to in effect design all our services for the benefit of our customers. At the last organisation I worked for, we had a lot of tearing apart our processes and re-building them , but when we started that process it became a… as a senior person at that organisation who had helped design all the processes, you suddenly felt very very small, because you know ultimately they weren’t designed for the customer they were designed for us, and they were designed by people not necessarily thinking about the customer, but you ‘know I think by having that process we did tear apart services, listened to what customers wanted, and I can give you one example, when you do a void inspection, then you would typically have a void standard, which you basically would say to a contractor, this isn’t up to my standard – do it. One of those items would be painting the walls magnolia or white and 9 times out of 10 the tenant moves in and paints it orange, so why not actually paint it orange in the first place and save, the orange paint doesn’t cost you any more money, so by listening to residents and as I say by using the contact centre to ear-wig those conversations you can re-design services for the benefit of… and equally that’s true of regen in that ultimately unless you design the bricks and mortar and the environment and where they live with them then the only thing you’re going to change is the bricks and mortar, nothing else. So ultimately if we

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don’t do it then we will be here in another 10, 15 years with the same problems.

JB – So do you think co-production exists within any of the regeneration projects that we are doing? Or an element of it?

TP – I don’t think we… elements yes, I don’t think, there’s no way we could… clearly there are obviously budgetary issues which drive you in certain directions; I think we probably don’t… So clearly there are some decisions we have to make in the interest of the wider project, rather than... But ultimately they usually are choices that can be made, and in terms of designing where people want to live then we should be bold enough to share those decisions with them, we do have a lot of, probably a lot of examples where we can say yeah this has been designed and built with the customer in mind, and point to other examples and say no they haven’t. I think a good example of that is the South Kilburn project where there is a complete disconnect with who designed it and who’s now developing it, the Local Authority designed and, sitting their ivory towers and then handed it over to a housing association to build it, so there’s a complete disconnect there between us and the community. But that’s I suppose, probably not a typical regen project.

JB – No, how will we bridge that though in South Kilburn? Or is it…

TP – too far gone?

JB – Yeah.

TP – Well, I suppose ultimately there is also a disconnect with the way in which Network manages as well, because the Local Authority goes off and designs 18 lifts, whereas we would probably want to halve that because the ultimate effect of that is that it’s going to cost the residents more to live there and that’s not a good thing, I think you know ultimately that was done in a particular way because that was how Brent wanted to develop it. I suppose we could have turned around and said sorry we don’t want to play your game but then we wouldn’t have got the opportunity to re-develop it. But it is… You know, I think you can overcome some of the initial barriers by reaching out and talking to the residents who ultimately will move into the project, and engage with them and involve them with what’s going on. That’s whilst we are starting from a negative, there are ways of turning it around, and I think we want to and we will try.

JB – Is one of the issues with consultation and getting residents involved, the fact that some regeneration projects will take years and…

TP – Consultation fatigue.

JB – Well yeah and potentially some of the residents who are there at the start may not be there at the end, and whether or not they are aware of that, I dunno if there is a sense of sense of apathy because of that?

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TP – Yeah I think you did a piece of research recently on a couple of Lambeth projects, one of them was Somerleyton, and whilst it’s the communities actually being involved in driving it, there is no community there at the moment, in that nobody lives on the site it’s just a derelict site, you know there you’re trying to involve a community that doesn’t really exist. Whereas clearly with the sort of regen projects there is an existing community but you will always get some who will move away and not come back and others that will come back, you know you have to sort of treat everybody on the basis that they do want to come back, and do want to get involved, if the fall away later on then so be it. I suppose the key issue then is who in effect takes their place, how do they become integrated into the whole process when they’ve not really been involved in something before, ultimately if they are coming off the Local Authority waiting list then the bottom line is they’re bidding for that property and that estate, so they’re making a conscious choice to want to try and sort of live there, so hopefully you’ve got some positivity coming to the scheme.

JB – Right, okay do you think that co-production could realistically be introduced to a regeneration scheme from the outset, if that was the idea? Do you think it could actually work or do you think it’s too…?

TP – I think it can work if people can get away from that individualistic approach which often does happen regen projects because human nature is human nature, people will want to… well you’ve met the (Tenants family name) they are… well if you peel back there situation brutally they benefit hugely from getting a property, a cheap property under the right to buy and now banging the table wanting something fabulous in the regen, if it was to stay as it is they’d really have to put their hands deep into their pockets to get a fabulous home, I mean I don’t want to use them… that was just a one off example but there are probably a lot of people on Rectory who have that individualistic approach as opposed to the looking after the interests of the wider community, so that’s clearly a barrier that would need significant work on identifying and helping individuals to take a more holistic view rather than their own individual things.

JB – and do you think that is partially to do with how we communicate and educate?

TP – Well yeah certainly some of it is, yeah I think we have to make joining residents groups a much more pleasant experience for people, if you look at the Rectory Park, clearly it wasn’t a nice experience for lots of people and that’s why they never turned up, because there were certain individuals driving their own agenda forward and nobody wanted to get involved because who would want to go and listen to that guy. So I… yeah as well as the residents stepping up to the plate, we have to step up to the plate to ensure we create the right environment for that to happen. And you have to look at each project on it’s own merits, different approaches will work in different estates, if we go down the road of co-production with everything we do that won’t work either, you have to have a very carefully thought out plan, this is

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the residents, talk to the residents and then decide this is the best way forward, and then seek their approval.

JB – Right, well what you were saying then about making the appeal of going to a meeting or attending the board or whatever more appealing, I was talking to Dawit earlier about that, and talking about incentive in terms of turning up, and saying we could offer them a voucher or something for offering their time, and he was saying that actually a bigger incentive is having an architect or somebody there who you feel you wouldn’t get access to normally, somebody who can really listen and he was saying that’s quite a big incentive, almost like a special guest. And then his other point was further to that there needs to be a confidence that whatever is said at that meeting is actually going to be carried forward and that again is an incentive for going.

TP – Yeah, I mean developing trust in any regen project is key, because ultimately we go home at 5 O’clock, so if mess it up, we’re not messing it up for us, we’re messing it up for them. So yeah, you have to create the right environment for people to get involved, but as a say, getting involved in a more… Yes we can deal with their personal issues but that’s outside the door, but they are like everybody else when they come inside the door.

JB – A more holistic view. So do you think there are any areas at the moment that we could specifically encourage more resident involvement, you know you said about afterwards maybe having more focus on an after a few years down the line service?

TP – Erm, Yeah I suppose ultimately, the key issue is getting the playing field right day 1, so if you have that genuine buy-in from residents and they feel as thought they are trusted, we can deliver on our promises, I think what happens after almost takes care of itself. Because you know ultimately if you deliver what you say on the tin then ultimately they are going to be a lot more engaged, I think there are a lot of projects around London that have been through several consultation processes and people don’t think anything’s going to happen. So eventually when it does happen they probably still don’t believe them. I think certainly we need to… If we don’t engage with the residents on our estates then clearly we are not going to deliver the right product for them and the community. I just think we need to do more of consultation at every stage of the project, but as I say I think the bit we don’t do enough of, well as I said the bit we don’t do an awful lot of, what do people think of the estate two, three, four or five years after it’s finished when the true test of whether it has been successful… everyone has those rose-tinted spectacles when they move in to the properties and things don’t work or everything works, or the property is fine but the Anti-Social Behaviour is increased again and etc. etc. don’t stop.

JB – I just wonder where you think the line is with appropriate engagement because obviously to go in and ask residents on everything is brilliant, to an extent it kind of undermines yourself because they’ll probably end up thinking what’s this guy getting paid for, he’s asking us to do the work.

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TP – Well it’s not so much asking them to do the work, it’s you know, I mentioned earlier, finances is a key issue, we’re not going to go out there and put our heads on the block in terms of borrowing money, but I think what I’m saying around that is you can still give people decisions about how they use that budget you know around what the project looks like and what the community looks like and sometimes we, we’re not necessarily not good at doing that, and one example of that is South Kilburn because it’s a total disconnect between people, even with regards to our situation, within the entire South Kilburn totality there is no provision for older persons yet certainly from my memory the vast majority of people whose curtains were twitching were all the wrong side of 70, but yet nobody’s providing anything specific for them, so clearly there’s a total disconnect between what the people at Brent thought and what the estate should look like in the future and the population that is there.

JB – Yeah, yeah, definitely, so in your opinion giving the residents a choice on how to spend a budget or whatever is absolutely fine it just needs to be, the choices need to be sort-of selected in a way?

TP – Yeah, there framed obviously, in the fact that we can afford to deliver them, we’re not saying here’s a blank cheque off you go. You know if you put 10 architects in a room, they’ll come up with 10 different solution, so you know it’s about framing some of those solutions within the overall budget and saying well look which are you’re preferred sort of options.

JB – That’s great, okay, I’ve just got two smaller questions, it’s just to end with almost, would you be finding out more about co-production if err Network was to become interested in it.

TP – When you publish this book eh?

JB – Well maybe, potentially. And then the other one is would you be interested in trying to implement co-production, if we were to go down that route?

TP – I suppose ultimately it should be all our aspirations because that’s why we’re there, our role in this whole process is to try and transfer their vision from in there (points to head) out there into the re-development of their estate if you don’t have that connection clearly we’re not going to deliver what they want. Whether you call it co-production or any other form of consultation or involvement the end users have to be at the forefront of what happens, if it’s not then it ain’t gonna work.

JB – So is there… I haven’t got anymore questions, I think we’ve gone through it all, but is there anything you want to say more about or ask me?

TP – I think it’s a very useful topic to look at… probably create a almost a what we do now, what does co-production look like and have those things side-by-side as a comparison, because often with a lot of things labels get attached to it, and co-production means lots of things to lots of different

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people, but what anyone shouldn’t lose sight of is the end user so whether you call it end-user production or co-production we’re the conduit to provide them with their aspiration and obviously they… we… I think… it’s difficult for a lot of our residents, you know you show them a set of plans and they go wow that looks good, and then they come back next week and think did I say that was good? Because it’s only human nature that people look at something and say it’s nice or not nice depending on what their mood is, so if they have a different mood in 3 weeks time they might say something different and I think ultimately its for us to sort of drag out of them what they like and dislike about where they live, what they’d like to change. I think that is something we do try and do, I wouldn’t say we get it right all the time, and again sometimes that has to be tinged with a pinch of salt, because of what we have to deliver and I can give you an example of that yesterday, we showed a crowd from Cressingham Gardens around the estate here and the lady from Lambeth, her first comment was we’ve brought you here today because you’re estate won’t look like this but we’ve just brought you here to show you what an estate regeneration looks like and I’m thinking did you say that for, yes you’d definitely going to get something like Stockwell Park on your estate or you’re actually being truthful and you will get what you want, and I… for me there’s danger in saying, there’s a lot of danger in saying what she said, because clearly economics is… if you’re going to spend an enormous amount of money regenerating an estate it’s not cheap, and they’re trying to do it without any cross-subsidy, they’re going to have less money, they’re going to have to watch their budget even tighter. I think she should have said nothing, just said go and have a look at around and see what you think. But then I was talking to the residents and they were saying oh our estate is a lot different to this and we definitely won’t be looking for anything like this in terms of density and blah blah blah, yet what they think is somebody’s going to come along and build dirty great tower blocks. If you have something which is currently 5 storeys and you put a storey on there ain’t much to the eye that, if it’s designed in the right way, probably doesn’t look different, but yet they were very blinkered because they’d obviously been fed a line, that the regeneration in this area, I’m just reading between the lines, it’s almost like it’s been sold like here’s the red letter and you decide what you want and but there’s almost like little guidance in terms, well look we have a budget here this is what we think we can do with the budget , have you got any ideas to sort of change that or alternatives or whatever? Because the bottom line is I haven’t come across a regen project in London yet that doesn’t need to increase the density and certainly change the tenure to make it work, but they were very much, rightly or wrongly, on the basis of it can happen as you want, which is a very dangerous place to be because somewhere along the line they are going to hit a brick wall.

JB – Yeah, the budget is going to throw the plans in the bin.

TP – Yeah, so that’s not a good example of co-production, they probably think it’s a good form of co-production, but somewhere along the line they are going to hit a brick wall, and I would suspect that form of resident of good resident involvement has to have that fine balance of avoiding the brick wall because if

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you hit the brick wall you go about ten steps backward rather than any steps forward.

JB – right, yeah that makes sense total sense, so it is important not to lead people blind down a road, because their expectations will go through the roof, and that’s not fair either. Okay so, that’s really interesting, I can’t think of anything else to ask.

TP – Well if you think of anything else you can come back to me.

Appendix F:

Full Interview Transcript Stephen Howlett (SH) – Senior Regeneration Manager interviewed by

Jonathan Buck (JB) on the 29th of December 2014

JB – Okay so could you briefly outline how residents presently take part in Network Housing Group’s regeneration projects from beginning to end?

SH – Okay, this is pretty standard for the majority of regeneration projects, whereby they go through a consultation to vote for the organisation they want to carry out the regeneration of their estate or area, and so they go through a consultation process and they vote on who they want to go forward with – which organisation they want to adopt. So they involved in the process from start to end. Erm so this will involve a promise, a commitment from the organisation, so the offer document is what it is referred to as, the offer document presents what the organisation, whoever is going to run the regeneration project, will follow and what they will offer to the tenants, what

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they promise to provide to the tenants, erm and the improvements they promise to make to the are and promote, so they are very much involved from the beginning, part of that offer document is to consult with the tenant throughout the project, so any works that is conducted on the estate or within the area, they will be consulted on and they will be given the chance to make their comments, and to provide some recommendations, or at least say what they like or what they dislike, and what their wish list will be. So we will consult them in the beginning to, to get signed up to the regeneration, once we have committed to the project and started on site each individual project will be consulted on, so we will have several evenings, erm meetings directly with the tenants face-to-face, we will provide them with tenant correspondence, newsletters, we also in Network have in particular, we also have a website which the tenants can tap into and they can find out what’s happening in their area, we also organise erm we organise open evenings, fun days, which is all geared around providing information, getting tenant feedback, getting tenants understanding, getting their expectations and what they’re aspirations for their local area is. Regeneration is quite a difficult area in the sense that what you will find is, there is always the spokespersons, there will always be a group of people that will take the lead, and pick up the opinions and say they are speaking for the whole area, so you’ve got to be really careful so we do target groups, we do larger meetings as well as smaller meetings, as well as face-to-face consultation as well so that those people who are not confident talking in a group will have a chance to talk to us individually, we also provide an open door policy where residents can come in and speak to us, but equally some people feel more confident in a group in open consultation, some people will talk up more, so you try and use all mediums to try and get the confidence and contribution from residents so we do fun-days we do, what else do we do…

JB – I was going to ask, I know obviously CTH has resident board members and JESP as well, do we set up like a regeneration board when we go into an area or do we just listen to those already set up.

SH – No, it’s quite powerful having… I was going to mention that, having a resident board, resident board members, so there’s always going to be a good percentage of the board members who are residents of the estate, so you… (PHONE RINGS)

Interview Interrupted

JB – Okay so we were talking about resident board members…

SH – Yes, resident board members is quite important in the sense that they represent the residents and they live on the estate so they can give quite good feedback, they can give quite a good understanding of what’s happening on the ground, so that’s really good resident involvement.

JB – So are they like voted in or…?

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SH – Yes, they have to nominate, and they have to get support as well from the residents so yeah they are voted in. JESP is a slightly different organisation erm they are not board members, but they are an organisation for the residents, they were established before the regeneration so they’ve been around, but they play a key part in us getting funded and helping us to promote and consult residents. The most important part within regeneration is getting over information, it’s easy enough to get feedback from those people who are interested or who are more vocal and more confident but in order to get a rounded picture, in order to get a full picture of what people’s requirements are and what their expectations are, it takes a lot more digging, it takes more investigative and more creative ways of consulting, it’s easy to say that we have held an open evening and very few people turn up and very few people contribute it’s easy to say that, but with us the most important thing is asking why didn’t they turn up, what is not attracting them to our consultation? Is our form of consultation poor? Is it not sufficient? Is it not the right language and this is not just English or Spanish or whatever, if you’re too formal then that can be quite intimidating but if it’s really casual then you know then that can be dismissive so it’s very difficult and it’s very important to get that balance and to try different forms of communication, different ways of meeting and greeting people, so like the question evening, that’s a good way, but again even at those evenings you get similar people most of the time, so the challenge is to go out to the people who don’t normally turn up and have valid concerns.

JB – So in that way is it about going and door knocking during the day or in the evenings or…?

SH – Yeah it’s about changing the venue, trying different places, its about knocking on the door, it’s about building up relationships before you have that consultation just being familiar with faces and names and stuff like that, and then asking what do you think about that, then you’ll often find it won’t be as formal and you’ll often find it will be more honest.

JB – And there’s trust then as well.

SH – yeah, you’ve got some trust going across as well, so that’s all important.

JB – Okay, my next question what is your opinion on how our residents participate within our projects at the moment, do you think there is a good level or a bad level?

SH – I think there’s an average level and average for me is disappointing, it’s very typical for regeneration projects to see the same faces turn up and hear the same complaints and what would be refreshing is if we were able to tap into the people who are not as vocal and not as confident, once in a while you get that, I got it at some of the consultation meetings that I recently held with regard to Thrayle, because we invited… because we did focus groups, we focused on different areas, and different types of residents, it gave them a platform to be a little bit more intimate, they knew it wasn’t going to be the whole estate coming along, just them coming along, so that was quite

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positive, and getting some people coming in who are not confident and expressing that concern, you know that they have difficulties but they came along and they gave us those opinions was really good feedback as well, my concern is that it’s that we are not always reaching those, the quiet people on the estate.

JB – Since I have been looking at this topic and thinking about it a little bit more, I know you said about the website that we have, erm do you think there’s… especially with regard to contacting residents who aren’t so confident in a public sphere, do you think room to build some sort of online space for Stockwell regeneration or whatever, where things get uploaded daily, well maybe not daily, we can do polls and things on there…

SH – I think that’s really important, what I’ve done in previous is you use that social media thing, even using twitter and stuff like that and just giving that daily blog, and just saying this is happening that is happening, just doing really short punchy sort of one-liners which can just spark off hopefully someone’s interest, and we can hopefully input information. I want to introduce that, I also want to… you know some people like the privacy of their home and if you can have that forum where they can have a conversation and have the confidence that people aren’t looking at them, might be helpful, it’s not going to be helpful for everyone but it’s… you know the trick is not treat everybody the same, treat people fairly, so giving them the best opportunity and giving them the best opportunity for them to communicate, so it’s not just about doing the open forum, its not just about writing letters, it is about, if you’re thing is social blogs, or twitter then, if that’s where you feel most confident, it’s fair and it’s right for us to use that medium so we can get their opinion as well, so yeah, that’s it.

JB – Could you possibly outline what you think the major barriers are to resident participation?

SH – Well the main barrier is us not understanding who our residents are, not understanding who they are, because once… and trying to create a one-size fits all sort of approach. That’s the main barrier, it’s our communication, it’s us not working hard enough to provide those open doors, to provide that access that is best suited to those individuals, so yeah you know people, it’s really strange, people think that there are groups who are ignorant or not caring or whatever but it is often that we are not presenting with the access to communicate, you know if they don’t feel comfortable, they are not going to say they don’t feel comfortable, they are just not going to turn up, if it doesn’t interest them they just aren’t going to turn up. So we should be working harder to find different forums, of course there’s going to be some people who are just not interested but the majority of people, if you cornered someone and said what’s your opinion on whatever? They will give you an opinion – it might not be a great one, but they will give you their thought on something, so we should be working harder to think of those different avenues and forums that people feel good on.

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JB – One thing that’s come up again and again when I have been doing this, is potentially training some residents in some manner, and up-skilling them in a way, so that they can give an informed opinion.

SH – In the last place I worked they had resident champions and they would be from blocks so you might have two or three resident champions who can come in and get in-depth training in different areas, and then hopefully residents will feel more confident going to them and expressing their views, and they can report back, and this does require training, and it does require some understanding on where you can go, privacy acts and stuff like that, you know they need to be quite conscious of all of that, but it is a different means and it’s different access and a different platform to capture someone else.

JB – Okay so moving on to my next question, is what effect do you think resident participation has on Network Housing Group as a whole and what do you think a decrease or an increase would entail?

SH – I think, I think it quickly lets you know where you’re at in the actual process, whether you’re achieving or not achieving, you know you can quickly gage where you are, so it is vitally important for us to consult. It’s just like any organisation, any good organisation, you try and understand your customer base and if you focus your attention and your work at meeting those expectations then you’re going to succeed, you’re going to do great, where we are at the moment… what was the second part of that question?

JB – Just whether you think a substantial decrease or increase would affect Network?

SH – A decrease would simply reduce our understanding of who our residents are, and an increase would give us more information. It’s more work and there is a balance because there is a maximum, I feel in my opinion that there is a maximum percentage that are going to be interested, there’s going to be a hard-core percentage, which are just please – leave me alone and you know some people just want get up, work and come home and just be left in peace, and that’s okay as well. But who we can capture and who can we respond to and get feedback on, so an increase will give us a better understanding but clearly we need to be careful about how far we go because at some point it’s going to be wasted. JB – Right, yeah because we can’t manage it.

SH – Yeah, you can’t get to a hundred per cent, personally, in my local area I’m interested to a certain level and after that you know c’mon.

JB - Yeah nobody’s got time…

SH – Yeah and some people have got more time than others, so there’s a limit I feel, and so you need to know where that limit and you need to set that limit.

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JB – Right so now what I am going to do is introduce this concept of co-production, I don’t know if it’s something you’ve ever heard of before?

SH – No.

JB – Basically what it means is delivering a service in an equal and reciprocal relationship between the professionals and people using the services, their families and their neighbourhoods, sorry and their neighbours even. So it’s a move away from an organisation doing for or doing to a person, and it’s a move towards doing it with them, and it involves services being designed and delivered in partnership with them. Erm it’s become quite popular in the charity world, because it was realised that if you were an organisation like a disability charity and you’re whole staff, if none of them had a disability then they really shouldn’t be designing a service for people who have – if that’s a brief explanation for what that kind of stands for, erm I was just wondering what you’re first impression of that is with regard to regeneration?

SH – Again, with regen that’s a lot of what we do, we try and create… it’s very important for us to be consulting and for us to be working with residents and erm going beyond because it’s not about, because regen is not about bricks and mortar it’s about building a community and changing that community from, often from a workless community, often from a low aspiration community and often from a community in deprivation, and we want to change that around and create more work opportunities for them, we want to increase the aspiration so we introduce different people and different working people, we want to improve their accommodation so they don’t feel like they have been forgotten, but that’s just the start almost, it’s building that community and changing their mind-set from being there’s no opportunities and there’s no way forward to having people around them who have succeeded and who is working and hopefully that will give them a target, say I don’t… if all you see around you is erm is employment, and deprivation and poor housing then your aspirations may be just a dry home, and it shouldn’t just be that, it should go beyond that. So you improve their surroundings, you improve the social surrounding, the community, the people that they live amongst, and it’s all of that helps to build and pull people along, so that’s what we are here to do, so involving them in that process, it gives another lesson as well, in that things can change and you can improve your… Where you are now. You can do that and by involving them in the process, hopefully that message comes across. So it’s fine again, there’s always a balance, life isn’t straight forward, life is complicated, so there are some people that is great for, and that is going to do it. But in every community, even a community that is in difficulty there will still be who aspire and go on to great things, and maybe people don’t need it and don’t want it to be fair, so you’ve got to find that balance of assisting and not taking over, so yes some people will join you and go along with you, but some will say yes okay you do what you’re doing but leave me out of it and it’s a very fine balance and you’ve got to be careful that you’re being fair to everyone. And so, I come back to my thing it’s not about treating everyone the same it’s about understanding your client base and understanding the people you are working with and creating systems and focus groups and facilities that will provide the opportunity for all.

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JB – Okay so in terms of, this idea of doing with, what you’re saying is yeah, doing with is what we want to do, but some point people won’t want that.

SH – and you just need to acknowledge that, you need to have your eyes open for that, so that you make the right balance, because the worst thing is when you say oh I can help you with that, well I don’t need your help sort of thing, and it just becomes offensive, it’s quite insulting if you over step that mark, so it’s providing opportunities without being intrusive.

JB – Yeah that makes a lot of sense, erm I was going to ask if you think co-production already exists within the regeneration projects that we do, and it does in terms of the consultation that we carry out…

SH – And employment opportunities where we try and get guys to go on site, and JESP who have their own different facilities, and we are involved in that. The planting opportunities that are you know around the estate, improving the estate, using local enterprise, employing local people, so not just the training but actual employment of skilled labour as well to do work in the area.

JB – Because what it boils down to is really empowering our residents.

SH – absolutely.

JB – And what you said about building the right communication infrastructure to do that makes total sense, do you think there are any areas we could improve on though. I know we said about the different communication methods that we can improve on but is there anything else specifically that sparks to mind.

SH – I think that we… I think young people… I don’t think we could do more on, just with that communication, I don’t think that we are using all our communication, we’re not using all our communication out there, especially the new, and getting on the new vibe, the new chat sites and stuff like that, and social media in that way and young kids are so into that, they are so up on it, in terms of what’s out there which sites to go into and whatever, and we should tap into that. I think that it’s we can get more involved in employing local and doing more local enterprise stuff but all of this takes money and involvement, and the facilities as well, and like you know with JESP and allowing residents to use the resource centre is a good thing. We are building another resource centre in the new office there will be that facility as well, similar to there, and in the new Thrayle there will be a separate sort of building that they could use and they could benefit from, I think we could do more in that sense as well.

JB – Okay, and is there anything that you foresee as a particular problem in terms of trying to get more residents engaged, I know you just said everything takes money and time, and resources, and stuff – is that the main thing?

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SH – That’s the main thing, and having the team and an organisation that is really clued up on regeneration. You know sometimes we can be more erm erm numbers focused, so just focusing on the numbers of units that we are producing and budgets and stuff like that, and that can almost, we can take our eye off the community changing that we are here for. So yeah, those are the difficulties; its trying to get the funding in, its trying to get our message across that we are not getting 100% funding like used to so we have to create our own funds to support projects going forward, so the sales projects that we have on the estate is really important for us to do well, and cross subsidise the rest of the important work we need to do on the estate, and if the sales market falls through then that’s a danger. I was going to say something else but I have forgotten.

JB – Okay erm, I was just going to ask, say with building a big communication element into the regeneration department or maybe trying to access social media and whatever, we are obviously part of Network Housing Group and we have a communications department so is that something they should be doing for us or do we need somebody in our team doing it ?

SH – We definitely need someone in our team because it’s almost something that needs… it’s a conversation and you need to be having this conversation, so you need to be, you almost need a resident to be doing it, to be based in our team and be communicating with other residents joining the social network group, to continue that conversation because it needs really… it’s not, it’s not there for, it shouldn’t be there for press releases, it shouldn’t be there for oh we are building 178 units on Thrayle House. It shouldn’t be there for that, it should be oh the electric man has come around and the meters are out again, we can’t disconnect the meters and stuff, it should be that sort of conversation, it should be we just got the plans through, and the consultation is tonight, and we had three people come along, and it should be like a real conversation, and I don’t think you can have that real conversation erm centrally.

JB – The only other thing I was going to ask is erm do you think that this sort of engagement, needs to be introduced right from the start of a regeneration project?

SH – As early as possible.

JB – Because obviously we are a long way through Stockwell, and I sense that there is like a tad of apathy and whatever, because we are almost at the end and there has been some issues.

SH – Yeah, I think it’s not that, I that that its more the fact that we have lost half the team, and we’ve been slow to recruit to take up the balance, so it’s more weariness then apathy I think.

JB – No sorry I meant amongst residents rather than in the team.

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SH – Ah okay No I think that’s just not having the time to engage, I think the most important thing the most difficult thing in a regeneration project is gaining the trust and the interests of the residents and residents are sparked off by stuff happening. With every regeneration you get that slow process, do we trust you? Do we trust you? Okay we’ll give you a chance and then there’s a dip in interest because there’s nothing happening, because they almost think this is the same old promises that we have been told and sold before, and then there’s a spike because something happens, one of the blocks get demolished and a new development is happening a new construction site is being formed and then Oh so what’s happening there? Something is happening, and once they are there that’s when you need to grab them and keep them there because construction sites are slow and it’s 18 months to 2 years before they complete so you can’t be happy about it starting forever so it’s almost the norm and it’s almost like nothing has happened, because it’s going so slowly, I can’t see any product out of this. I often refer it to like being in your home and your pip bursts and water is flooding out and you’re in a panic and you call up a tradesman to come round and you are all nervous and anxious and then as soon as they ring the door and you realise it’s the guy there’s a relief instantly before it’s fixed, you’re here, thank god and there’s that and then if he takes another 3 years top fix it you’re sort of like what come on – what are you doing, do you know what I mean? Because normally he comes in and fixes it in half an hour or three hours or whatever and your life is back to normal again. But we’ve knocked on the door and they went ahh gosh you’ve started and then a year and a half in, they are still not in their new homes, so somehow you have got to keep them up there and keep knocking on the door, and say we’re here, we’re hear, and get them to say wow, wow, wow you’re doing this, you’re doing that.

JB – Okay so it’s about being constant and continuous.

SH – Yeah and re-inventing and just keeping you up, like any organisation they talk about re-inventing you know that’s why a new apple comes out every couple of years. So as soon as one has come out your thinking well when is the next one coming out, but for us it takes so long to produce it, it’s like oh okay, forget it.

JB – One last thing, just from the interview I did with Tim Porter, he said he would like to see us work on the way we interact with residents after we are finished, because presently we may have a conversation 6 months after but not 2, 3, 4, 5 years down the line. I’m just wondering if you have any views on that, in terms of keeping the regeneration alive almost after we have left?

SH – Yeah it’s that same thing isn’t it, you know if you don’t almost keep reinventing yourself; and bringing in and saying look this is happening and look that’s happening, erm and showing them where the growth and the direction of where the community is going then it will dip, just like anything. You know you buy a new TV and it’s all wow and then next week it’s sort of like it’s there isn’t, it’s just done, it’s just there. And we keep learning, because you know, a building is almost alive, specially when you’ve got people in them, so a building keeps moving and developing, so there’s always lessons

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to be learnt after you, what I will be trying to do, you do a survey 3 months after they have moved in, and that’s still all very new and very shining, or horrible because stuff is happening and you have defects and stuff, so you get that reaction and then you go back after 9 months and everything has calmed down and they know their property now. You know if the boilers not working, they know there is a switch there, oh that’s switched off, I can switch that on, and then they almost dip oh I had really high expectation and now the bloody boiler doesn’t work to ahh no no everything works now, it’s kind of cool here. And then there is I have lived here for 2 years now, does this still excite me, you know what, that window there really annoys me, if only they made it open able or it could open wider, it’s the small things but they become really important because that’s what you focus on, it’s like light bulbs that aren’t in line, it’s small but you just always catches your gaze, your just like ughhh god it’s so annoying, why didn’t they do that window like this why they didn’t shape the kitchen this way, if only they did a breakfast bar on the end of this kitchen it would be fantastic, that would’ve made it for me. So there’s always those lessons to learn which you can’t get in the first year even, it’s a couple of years later, when they know how everything else works and not everything is new anymore that they start to notice the small things, so it is definitely valid to do that.

JB – Okay, right I think that’s about it. Thank you.

Appendix G:

Full Interview Transcript Dawit Kuma (DK) – Resident & Health and Safety Data Inputter

interviewed by Jonathan Buck (JB) on the 11th of December 2014

JB – Okay so this is the interview with Dawit on resident involvement, thank you very much for doing this, my first question is, can you just tell me how long you have lived on the Stockwell estate?

DK – Right, I’ve lived here for 6 years, since I was 18, so basically when I moved out of foster care I got given a flat and yeah now I’m 24 so I have lived here for 6 years.

JB – Right, cos the regen started in 2007, so just after it began.

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DK – Just after it began, literally I think mine was probably the first, they started on Norton didn’t they, so the regen started on Norton and then they went on to Lambert, and now you’ve done Barret and Bedwell, and I’m not sure, well you’ve got others planned, so yeah.

JB – Yeah, and how long have you worked at Community Trust Housing?

DK – About a year, a year and 2 months now.

JB – Oh, I thought it was longer than that?

DK – Haha no I have been here a year and 2 months, I have been here long enough. I don’t think I would last if I worked that long with so much things going wrong with – well things would have been different if I had been working here longer. Lets put it that way.

JB – Haha that’s a good way to look at it. Erm, so having lived here for the majority of the regen stuff that’s gone on erm what opportunities have you been given as a resident to get involved in the regeneration process? Obviously where you actually live on the estate hasn’t been included in the regen – is that correct?

DK – where I actually live, what do you mean by that?

JB – In terms of your block.

DK – Could you elaborate because I don’t know what that means, when you say not included in the regeneration?

JB – Has any work been carried out?

DK – Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it’s been refurbished, that’s what I said, they started with Norton and then, it was a small scheme and you moved over to Lambert which is slightly bigger and got Barret & Bedwell, massive, massive buildings, but it is part of it, and it was the first one. In terms of getting involved in consultation. Work started around 2009 right. Around that time I was pretty busy with university stuff, my first year at LSE, so I was pretty busy, but I think the consultation took place before I moved in, because I moved in 2008. So it is likely that they consulted before I moved in. Because I don’t recall getting any invitations for consultations or anything like that, I got invited to choose the paint for my walls, cupboard units and like, but nothing else, and then I made amendments to the kitchen detail, because I’ve got like a tall fridge and they only accommodated small ones where you slot it under a cabinet or under a shelf. So that’s my involvement.

JB – Right okay, so you haven’t been involved in anything estate wide?

DK – No no no, I tried to get myself, well the only thing it’s not really regen really, it’s to do with the CSP Plant yeah, they were, people wanted flexibility in terms of the energy supplier, I mean I was pretty fine with it, the only thing

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that was wrong with it was the hot temperature was too low, so I had to get to get that turned up.

JB – Fair enough.

DK – There wasn’t much wrong with it, the billing was fine, compared to a market rate, it was very competitive so I wasn’t fussed by that, but it was just a design detail that was flawed, whoever put it in didn’t do it right so maybe I could talk more about that, because I have more experience with what’s gone wrong with regen. That’s my experience, I mean I’ve lived through it but I wasn’t consulted initially.

JB – My next question was do you feel involved as a resident in the regeneration, not just with your building but estate wide?

DK – I think there is 4 particular schemes right, there is no consideration as to how it could impact residents living near, so if you’ve got like scaffolding going up and diggers over at Lambert, obviously I’m a young lad, you can make as much ruckus as you want, within a limit, but there’s no consultation as to how it’s going to effect neighbouring resident, it is just block specific so maybe looking into expanding it to become estate wide. Obviously if you’ve got tenants from Bedwell attending Thrayle, they may bring up something irrelevant, you don’t want that obviously, but maybe you can get someone from Norton, who can attend the regen consultation at Lambert and they can describe the flaws and experiences they had, and that cannot happen again you know, because they don’t get picked up and the same things keep happening on every regen programme.

JB – So if that was offered do you think you’d try and engage?

DK – Yeah, I mean if that was offered I would try. I’m trying to get a position on the board, people will listen to me then. The elections are in a couple of months time so I am just going to put myself up for it.

JB – Oh and is that a relatively simple application process?

DK – Well I don’t know, I really don’t know, I’d have to speak to Delroy about it, I mean there are resident board members so I reckon it’s pretty straightforward, and the more involvement and community engagement you have the more fine-tuned your services are for the community, and I think that’s what we should focus on, there’s lots of.. I mean Norton… I only became aware of it when I started working, obviously there’s been a new communal boiler put in to obviously supply heating as well as the electricity, it’s quite a massive, massive plant, I went to see it the other week when Ian was down here, and that’s been decommissioned and that’s a waste, a waste, you can’t fit in things which are redundant, I mean you’ve got the biomass plant which has not really been turned on and it looks like it’s not been installed properly anyway so probably would never work. So instead of y’know getting these grand projects for getting some points for planning, we should look at really practically, I mean these communal boilers are a nightmare to

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maintain, people would like the flexibility, obviously there will always be it was cheaper when we were selling it to them, but we have to move with the times and everybody pays for their bills, there are lots of suppliers out there, so you could educate people on y’know; you can switch suppliers whenever you want, and it’s pretty reasonably competitive – there’s lots of work going on to make small players get in, you’ve got like – not so much in London, but you’ve got like localised production in the countryside, so things are moving on, and we’ve got to really think about some of these upgrades or building components which fit in terms of practicality, in terms of actually the utility we get from them.

JB – Okay because do you think after a block is finished by the regeneration team, then y’know all these sort of after thought things, is there a structure in place for making amendments and being able as a resident to voice concerns you have, after it’s all been signed off, how do you feel about that process?

DK – I mean after it’s signed off, before it’s signed of I had quite a lot of problems with regen refurbishment, after it got signed off, there was an involvement with Higgins, after it’s been signed off you’ve got to get the guys who built it to come back and have a look at what they’ve done – simple as that. But there was an involvement from Higgins, all the defects were, the repairs team obviously would try to do a patch repair, get out there as quickly as they can, obviously limited budgets it’s not as big as a development budget, so they try to do what they can, obviously and obviously there is a problem with the performance of the maintenance team as well, even when the problems were going on in the property, I was pretty… the electricians came in and they didn’t wire the place properly, so every time I put my kettle on it’s no lights and that’s fantastic, so they came on and tested the kettle and obviously the kettle was fine, and they’re like alright, and the guy spent an entire day pulling cable out, putting new ones in, I was like jeez, I don’t know who did this, and also those things, I mean it took a while for it to get sorted, I was quite surprised because these are things you would want to sort out very quickly and yeah there was like problems with the ceiling, the roof they had like the panels that they had to fill before they put the new roof over, sort of like joints from the old roof, so when they took the old roof out they left massive gaps uncovered, and it happens one of them is just above my property, just like rain water pouring in, I mean there are lots and lots of defects I mean that shouldn’t happening. In terms of the response I didn’t find it satisfactory. I mean when the rain water was coming in, it took them like a couple of days to send someone out with an aqua vac, so I was using a mop, I was like… a mop on a carpet doesn’t do much, get rid of the squelch a bit, but it doesn’t do much, because the mop was wet already. So I mean there is a lot of work to do in terms of response, in terms of…, I mean there might be contractual complications but that has to be thought ahead of, you’ve got to stipulate clearly what you expect from them, from what I gather, you give the contractors a lot of freedoms, you give them pretty much design ownership and right that’s fine there is always room for contractors to cut down costs there, if you tell them build this they’ll get the cheapest they can, do the shittiest plaster job they can, they’ll skimp on paint, radiators, they’ll skimp on anything they can. So there needs to be like rigorous scrutiny.

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JB – Do you think residents can be involved in that scrutiny?

DK – Yeah, yeah. I think they can, they may not be technically y’know, he may not be a technical individual, but he’s living with a problem and he’s tried to do something, if you see water coming into your property the first thing you try and do is figure out where it’s coming from right. So y’know he’s been there, he’s lived through it, he can tell you exactly, and like y’know if you’ve got these people coming in they can tell you exactly what you need. Like I need a new radiator, it’s not too big, it’s not too small, maybe put it somewhere else, the design, well maybe not the design but scrutiny making sure services are delivered, design is very technical, obviously even the design you could explain to them in Lehman’s terms – you don’t have to say to them we’re doing cold-bridging, you can say we are making the property thermally efficient, everybody would understand that and we are looking to spend… I mean I dunno if you would divulge how much this costs obviously to tenants?

JB – Right well this is an interesting thing, because it’s about how you involve somebody and how much information you do disclose because obviously it may not be in everyone’s best interests to disclose budget and all of that sort of thing, because it’s bound to cause controversy. But erm so it would be interesting, I mean as a resident if you were told, this is our budget and how do you want us to spend it? Do you think that would be appropriate or do you think that is too much?

DK – That might be too much. In terms of going down to the details of where this going, you could have like… what residents take with from a Lehman’s point of view, is like 50K per property, they’ll have no problems, 50K is obviously a lot of money for a property and that’s what people expect – you should deliver every penny’s worth. You’re not doing major renovations, you’re fitting in new features but predominantly, you’ve got to make sure that most of that goes towards the structure, being thermally efficient – that’s what people really care about, they don’t really want a walnut cabinet right – because that’s going to come off in 30 years anyway, so there’s no point giving fancy features like timber windows when you have water problems, cracked slabs, you should focus on the fundamentals first, and make sure they are dealt with, and they planned for initially and then what’s left over… So what’s best is maybe involve the tenants in like… obviously in the communal heating, so bills will be higher so we are looking to insulate it. Maybe electrics, obviously you can get energy saving light bulbs, people can maintain their heating, heating, heating, and water penetration. So ventilation is also very important, I mean I don’t have a problem with it because I leave windows open anyway, but even the fan they put in is so weak, you got to the bathroom half an hour later and it’s still steamy like woah, this is great.

JB – Using your knowledge of other residents that I presume you speak to, do you think that they feel involved in the regeneration or what is the sort of opinion?

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DK – People, people, it’s not about the consultation, that’s not their main concern, lots of people get involved with consultation and it’s just like – they don’t see action, they see lots of grand projects, like somebody was like you know you’ve got those candle lights like sticks, like what the hell is the point. It looked nice but the guy has got like water coming through his bathroom light and that’s been going on for two years now. And after the refurb you expect at least no problems for quite a lot of years after you’ve spent quite a lot of money. It’s not to do with the consultation because most of it is technical, so y’know we’re upgrading this, you’re getting a new gas boiler, you keep it simple and you tell them exactly what you’re going to deliver. Their main concern is with the delivery and the quality of work, it used to be like lethargic, very lethargic when it came to resolving these issues. That really needs lots of work, there’s a lot of room for work there.

JB – Right, okay just picking up what you just said about in the consultations, I know it’s not all about consultations, but in those consultations you said we should say exactly what we are going to deliver. Do you think residents… It shouldn’t be about what we want to deliver, it should be about what residents want us to deliver. Errm just curious on your opinion?

DK – Right, right, that’s a valid point, that’s a consultation it’s a two-way process, you tell them what you’re going to do and you get their input in it. But I don’t know when it goes out to tender like before everything gets changed about you have like initial plans which when you haven’t invested much time or effort in so maybe that’s when to get people’s input in. Obviously after the plans have been finalised there’s nothing you can do, you tell them based on your consultation, based on your feedback, we’ve gone to individual boilers and we are not going to put in timber windows in a bathroom, all those sorta things, if they are incorporated, that makes the tenants engaged – if people are engaged they will have more community pride, because I don’t want this culture to repeat itself, like y’know the council will pick it up, and you’ve got cracked windows – the council will pick it up. You don’t want that, you want people to take pride in their community at the end of it, that’s what you want right. But if you’re delivering like y’know second-rate, third-rate jobs… I mean trying to save costs here, but you’re not really going to foster much pride in someone’s home are you? If the ceilings been collapsing and the guys been complaining for two months or two years or however long that problem has been persisting. So eventually either people become apathetic, and just think this is how things are done and eventually after ten years when the problem gets fixed it’s oh thank you, ahh finally you have done something about it, or you get the other extreme where people don’t give a shit about the properties they take on, and once they get evicted or once they move in, you have to pay it back because people, like you… you know it’s psychological, if you’re surrounded by crappy scenery you’re not really going to take care much of your immediate environment. Hopefully people realise they’re immediate environment is very important but obviously people like to see nice things and simple things like cleaning.

JB – I guess that’s why those sort of candle lights, in a way is that legitimised?

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DK – Yeah, it does legitimise, as it makes it more appealing, more y’know pleasant. I mean it’s a really ideal location, and the properties have had some chronic under-investment for quite some-time. You can quite clearly see it, lots of people have tried to get away with doing the minimum, maybe it’s because of lack of oversight or maybe y’know like the council inflated budget, and y’know the councils major regeneration project all over the place, so one project may not have had the attention they wanted, but that’s the details we shouldn’t even dwell on. We should move on to see what we can do to make it look better, y’know to make the slabs even, simple things – if you see a crack on the wall – immediately paint it. If you keep it clean I’m sure people would change their attitude.

JB – Right, okay, do you… Well what I’m going to do now is just introduce a concept which has become popular not, well it has become popular in housing associations but it’s a charity concept which has become popular. It’s called co-production, I don’t know if you’re familiar with it?

DK – No.

JB – No, not at all, that’s fine. Essentially it means that services delivered by charities or housing associations, in this case regeneration is the service, is delivered in an equal and reciprocal relationship between the professionals and the people living in the homes, their families, their neighbours, all the people involved. So it’s a move away from doing things for people or doing it to people, and instead it’s a move towards doing things with them. It sort of involves services being designed and delivered in a partnership erm and to give you an example, the reason why it has become quite popular, is because say you’re in a disability charity or something, it became apparent that if the entire organisation is run by people without disabilities, they probably aren’t the right people to be designing services for people with disabilities. So it is about including people who are accessing your service, because ultimately they are seen as assets and really valuable in terms of being able to benefit the service. So that’s co-production – is that an alright explanation?

DK – Yeah, so it focuses on involving service users more and more.

JB – Yeah, so I just wonder what your first impression is of that?

DK – Well that’s pretty good, I mean if… the whole point… like you said you’ve got to look after your assets and the way you look after your assets is by keeping them happy, by not kicking them, by keeping them happy. So I think that’s a very good model of working, although though obviously you’ve got to look at how much technical involvement, because when it comes to regeneration how much technical involvement you give to your tenants, but it’s a sound model to go with – any results so far, in terms of improved customer satisfaction?

JB – Yeah, I mean I’m not an expert on the subject, but people who or companies or charities that have adopted this have seen big increases in

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popularity in their services and then really what it’s all about is about empowering people erm charities were initially for y’know these philanthropists; the rich giving to the poor, and it’s now about rather than that vertical system, about equalling it out and giving those people who are accessing the services power, and giving them the skills to go on in their lives and do more. So I don’t know about too many results…

DK – So they have sort of ownership rights, is that what your sort of going towards, they have a stake in it, if for example this housing association was wholly owned by the tenants, technically which it is, all the assets… if that’s the sort of gist of it, if you want to have an owner, customer sort-of model. You want to think they are both owners and customers. So they obviously own, or if they feel like they own the buildings they will look after it, but if they feel like they are just units then y’know…

JB – And that’s where it comes down to quite a technical point, it’s appropriate co-production, because if you invite a load of residents in and you start talking about their homes as units, then that’s not going to be appropriate – I’m just wondering if you think that co-production exists at the moment in regeneration, in terms of getting people involved and treating them as assets?

DK – Right, right, there have been lots of consultations, but I haven’t attended one, so I can’t give you my first hand perspective of it, the other consultations – if it’s in the same spirit as question time for example where people can bring any issues that they have. But the thing is people bring up their issues, but how do you ensure you have delivered on them. I don’t see that, I haven’t seen that.

JB – The follow up?

DK – Yeah the follow up, and if people obviously tell you, at least you call them, I mean we did that when John and I… me and John called them back the following day and tell them exactly what they needed to hear, so it’s as simple as that, it could be, we’ve got a planned programme and it’s due to commence in three months, people are like okay, I’m not going to bother you for three months, when it comes to three months, they’ll be like alright where are they now, at least they know where they stand, but if you keep quiet, no-one…

JB – So in your opinion about communication…

DK – yeah a lot more communication, the right kind of communication. I mean the newsletter is good – I’ve read a couple of issues, and it tells you quite a lot of things, I don’t know how many people read it but it’s quite good in terms of how much information it gives, but I don’t know if you could do, maybe you could do… well maybe that’s a bit too much because people will just come in ask questions won’t they, but we need more communication, need to tell them exactly what’s going on and if people’s concerns are not being acted upon, or they feel like they have not been acted on, they just stop, y’know they won’t respect you, because you’re not helping them because you’re supposed to be

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helping them live and look after where they live, within reason obviously, and you expect them to do the same, but at the moment it seems like we have a heavy burden on our shoulders because we have let things slip under the rug and tenants demand more than what we can actually deliver, purely because they’ve been living with a leaking roof they expect a new TV. I mean that may not be the best example but they want to be compensated, and I can totally understand where that’s coming from obviously, because y’know you’ve lived in inhabitable conditions for years and expect something for that hardship. It may not be the right attitude, but if that guy has been persistently complaining and nothing has been done you’ve got to give them a little peace offering. I mean, we want to avoid that, in the long-run those things cost more to the tenants, who ultimately foot the bill and any grant-provider out there. We got to, I mean it’s not rocket science really, we’ve got to be quicker at reacting instead of meetings.

JB – Right, so communication is key, and fast-action on these things…

DK – and anticipation, you’ve got to anticipate these things. I mean we’ve had the same windows, the same window detailing, this guy has complained, we need to look at the rest of the windows. We’ve got problems with slabs, where we had them done, looks like a similar sort of thing, so maybe we should investigate it, to make sure this doesn’t happen when it was done. So I don’t know why we didn’t do that, because Norton would have been the perfect place to learn because it’s quite a small unit, so it won’t cost you much to go back in and ask the people, you could do like 40 people, 42 units, and even getting the guys back to fix what they have done shouldn’t be a problem, and then you can use that as a pilot. I think that’s probably what they started doing, starting from the smallest and moving on to the biggest, and you should have used that pilot to iron out any little snags that you didn’t anticipate. Because I’m sure nobody would have anticipated new windows not being waterproof after a year, so after you’ve picked that up… I mean I don’t know if they saw the windows being fitted, because the windows were fitted on one day, all on one day, so I don’t think there’s much time to put in a waterproof membrane, so they just put it in and sealed around it with a basic seal.

JB – Do you think… you said about the consultation, you haven’t been to one or whatever. Do you think there are quite a lot of barriers to people coming along to these things? Or why do you think people don’t?

DK – I don’t think there are any barriers, there are no barriers, invite for all with tea and coffee so y’know… but the problem with turn-out might be because like I say they’ve attended… because these tenants, some have been here for years, generations, you’ve got whole families here, like I’ve got neighbours who literally were born here, I’m probably the youngest guy in terms of tenure and age, but others tenures were with Lambeth… Lambeth used to manage these properties. There have been some improvements since Community Trust Housing was established obviously in terms of health and safety, I don’t know about repairs performance but there have been some improvements, a lot of people give kudos to Delroy and what he’s done. The

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only barrier that you should consider would be apathy, people just don’t care, it’s just how CTH is, just how Stockwell is, I mean this is called the council, still called the council and it’s not Lambeth, people have still got that mentality, brands have changed but the people are still the same, we’ve got to make sure that this is a different organisation with different management, structure, organisational policy and business delivery. We got to really push the message out that this is a different organisation, but obviously people only see differences they don’t really… if people don’t see it they won’t believe it.

JB – Do you think an incentive to come and participate would be…

DK – Incentive, what are you going to incentivise?

JB – Well for example, there is an organisation that basically what they do is produce new currency, sounds ridiculous but it’s based on hours given – so if you came to a consultation say and it lasted an hour, then at the end of it you get a note which says 1 hour on it right, and then there’s leisure centres, tower of London and all these sorts of places that will give you admission in return for these vouchers essentially. So say 2,3,4,5 to get into certain events, whatever is going on, so do you think something like, if we offered people a genuine incentive for turning up, and basically paying them for their time, that basically people would be receptive to that – or do you think they’d see it as a hand-out, and they may not want to be seen as somebody who needs or takes hand-outs – y’know it’s a difficult line to tread, so I’m just interested to find out what you think?

DK – Right, incentivising, I look at this from two ways basically. First you don’t want to be in that position really, you want people to have pride, and be so involved in their community that they know exactly what’s going on. People have got lives obviously but they live next door, so there is no reason why we shouldn’t engage with them every day, it’s not like were a dealing with schemes hundreds of miles away – we’re next door, everybody’s on-site, even contractors are on-site, so if we have things in-house maybe we should explore that model of procuring everything, having everything in-house, it would be ideal for a contractor to be based here and work. In terms of… okay, if you’re going to incentivise people to come in you may want to look at the input those people will have. And those people that may turn up because the incentive might be serious, might be a good way to screen those who wouldn’t give you like y’know some fundamental inputs, as opposed to those people who just turn up for a freebee, you want this to be as productive, you want more people to come in, you want sound opinions to be recorded and acted upon, and so it could be like, you could do a pilot, and see, well 1 pilot is not really worth it. Exploring the traditional avenues of inviting people, or maybe having a little gathering in their block one day to go round with an architect. People like an architect, someone who is technical. Y’know and they tell him this is wrong, this is wrong, and he will listen more y’know, instead of somebody who is from customer services.

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JB – So an incentive would be, in a way, would be making sure people with real influence and skill are at these meetings and then you feel as though you are being taken seriously.

DK – And y’know you want that senior person to respond to the tenants concern, within a reasonable period of time, preferably the following day, with just an update, makes things so much simpler. Just saying yeah, yeah, I am aware of this but we are ironing out the details of the plan detail we are about to embark on, and I will let you know if anything changes. In the meantime can you do this to mitigate… Even just advice that will sort the problem out, maybe go and get yourself something, we will reimburse you later, things like that.

JB – Okay, so going back to co-production - this concept, do you think it could be realistically introduced as a proper model to base regeneration on, from a tenant’s perspective?

DK – Right now I don’t think it would work, I don’t think it would work, because I don’t think right now tenants have got a… well there’s lots of people who are very close to the community, very close to the estate I don’t know if it’s because they’ve got a lot of friends here or some other connection but my inclination is that they know a lot of people round here, so they chose to live here because of their social circle, but you want people to take pride in their community, you want people to say I’m proud to be from Stockwell Park estate or whatever, and in order to do that, if you had that ethos, if you had that inclination, if everyone felt like that you’d have a very successful co-production model, but I don’t think at the moment, people are in the TRA’s, saying… The TRA has quite a lot of influence because people respond to hype more than they do to facts, and what the TRA is suggesting is that we are going to be taken over by a greedy corporate organisation that will ramp up rents up to 80% of market rate, and the facts are obviously that this is a protected, protected scheme with the government closely watching how far rents can go up, and they go up 2 or 3 per cent every year plus whatever the retail price index is in that year. People are obviously misinformed and people are disillusioned, people have received such crap service it is easy to sway them in the other direction, they don’t care – we’re just some corporate fat-cats slicing this place up, which is eventually going to be demolished, and people are going to be moved out of London. I mean all around you you’ve got properties going for half a million, 1 million, 2 million, so y’know those rumours may seem like facts. So you want to obviously clarify with the tenants the position they’re in, alleviate any concerns they have regarding their tenancy which is very important, and make sure they… that any feedback, if someone says, or a block of tenants get together and say, the cleaner keeps leaving a puddle of detergent, you act on it. You’ve got to start very slowly, people they try and start trickling information to people, actions take place, and then you can move on to co-production. At the moment no.

JB – I think what we’ve, sort of what I’ve taken from this is that communication is pretty poor at the moment and needs to improve in the future for all of this to take place, which is interesting…

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DK – And action, action.

JB – and action, yes, on the back of that communication.

DK – action first and then communication, if you act people will…

JB – Well yeah but you’ve got to find out the issues and then re-assure people about their tenancies, like you just said, and make sure they are well informed, which is a vital part of co-production, you can’t just invite a load of people and expect great feedback, you have to up-skill people and educate people to ensure that the feedback you get is informed and is going to be good. So… this has been really good, I only have two more little questions; would you be interested in finding out more about co-production if network likes sound of it?

DK – I’d definitely be interested to learn how they might implement it.

JB – Right and my next question was would you be interested in helping to implement it, if that was to happen?

DK – Yes, sure. I mean the way I like to work, I don’t like fancy projects which go nowhere, if I’m going to get involved it’s got to have a meaningful impact, you don’t want to be political, you want it to be practical. Y’know you don’t just want resident engagement – Fantastic – just meeting a quota, you want it to look better than just on paper, you want something concrete. So if it’s like that then obviously I will give it my impression. I’m definitely keen on improving resident engagement as we are, the people have to be listened to, that’s important people like to know if what they’ve said has been acted upon, no matter insignificant, like the puddle.

JB – and then, have you got anything else you want to say on the subject or any questions you want to ask me about it, or are you quite happy to leave it there?

DK – Right, well you said earlier you would like to be used as a model for Network to implement some of its policies, right?

JB – Well yeah…

DK – or like y’know they will use the findings and then incorporate them into their decisions?JB – Yeah, I mean at the moment I am just seeing if there is scope to move towards this co-production model, that has become popular, I don’t think at this point that we are going to be able to follow it directly because it involves, if you were going to do it properly, you would have… half your staff would live on the estate, I know we have some like yourself, but y’know it would have been implemented right from the beginning, but it is something that regeneration can take to other projects around London in the future to maybe engage more tenants or leaseholders or whoever from the off. So at the

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moment, I am just trying to gather from my colleagues in regeneration, whether they think resident engagement needs to be increased and how we may be able to do it and using the opinions of someone like yourself and Adewale as well to see how sort of tenants who are involved in Network feel about it as well, and if all 6, I mean I know it’s only 6 people, but if all 6 come back and they say we should really be doing this, that’s really strong evidence, strong for me to go forward with it and say to Tim Porter say look, I’ve got a lot of evidence here that people want to do a bit more, and hopefully he’ll say okay, well you run with it and take it a bit further. So at the moment it’s at a basic stage but does that kinda answer your question or…?

DK – Yeah, that sounds good, obviously based on your feedback, based on your findings you will figure out what you need to do after. That sounds really good. I mean so what’s the assignment?

JB – So, yeah, as part of this graduate scheme I’ve got to do 3 research projects throughout the year, and this is what I chose to do my first one on, just because I think it relates very well to regeneration and it’s quite a sort of popular topic in the charity sector at the moment, and I just thought it would be interesting to explore it, because it could eventually benefit the regeneration projects that Network do if people get on board with it, so I just thought it would be interesting.

DK – yeah, yeah, yeah, have you read any like publications or reviews on regeneration projects that have taken place and how effective they have become with social empowerment, not necessarily what the buildings have become, but has revamping a derelict building improved the outlook of the tenants – for instance has it reduced crime ?

JB – I haven’t, I haven’t found findings on whether regeneration benefits the people but that is something I do need to look into, I’ve only just started doing this project really, but no that’s interesting and something I need to look into.

DK – As long as it’s not you know purely business, y’know the house next door sells for… a bit more, haha you know as long as it is not just for that, not just the façade, you’re actually doing something fundamentally, makes the properties, accessible, futuristic, moves with the times and you know a pleasant place to stay, because if people are happy things just happen. If people are pissed off then you can’t get anything done.

JB – Exactly, okay, erm alright, is there anything else?

DK – No, no that’s it.

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Appendix H:

Full Interview TranscriptAdewale Bakare (AB) – Resident & Aftercare Assistant, interviewed by

Jonathan Buck (JB) on the 17th of December 2014

JB – Can I just firstly ask you how long you’ve lived on Stockwell Park Estate?

AB – Oooh erm 11 years.

JB – Okay and how long have you been involved with CTH and Network Housing Group in terms of employment?

AB – 2 Years and 3 months or something like that.

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JB – So if you’ve lived on Stockwell Park estate for 11 years you have seen the whole of the regeneration pretty much, erm what opportunities have you been given to get involved in the regeneration if any?

AB – Erm very little but, I was there shortly after Lambert was redeveloped and I was kind of involved with Barret & Bedwell, so very little, I’ve dealt with some customers living in the properties of course, but yeah…

JB – But as a resident you didn’t had much to do with the regeneration?

AB – Not really no, obviously I was living in Lambert when Lambert was getting refurbished so I had a view to what I wanted and what I wanted to see in the new building, so it was very little, very little.

JB – Okay, so all in all do you feel involved in the regeneration taking place there?

AB – Erm as a resident, not totally no, I wouldn’t say I am.

JB – Okay and can you explain why?

AB – Erm I don’t think there is that resident engagement to try and get like opinions or like to offer some sort of ideas, like what people like to see in their estate, for example like with the pen, the graffiti pen, I’m sure there will be plenty of residents who will have ideas for that, but I don’t, I haven’t seen any questions or any questionnaires or invites to you know produce your ideas as a resident to CTH or Network or to anybody, that would be my answer really.

JB – Fair enough, so my next question was, using your knowledge of other residents do you think they feel involved, but I guess…

AB – No I wouldn’t say so.

JB – Okay because I know at present, obviously Thrayle House is going to be regenerated pretty soon and there’s a meeting tomorrow evening for anyone on the estate to come, and I think the whole estate has been invited by post, do you think… like obviously trying to get people to come via, by putting something through their letterbox, do you think that’s a good way of doing it, or… I mean we are yet to see how many people show up but do you think there could be more effective ways of getting people to come along.

AB – Erm letter dropping is good, but they’ve got, I’m sure on the system they’ve got everyone’s contact details, it’s such a simple text message to say this is going on to tomorrow, do you want to come along? If you want please come along, obviously if you want to come along then you can come along, the invite is there, so that they can get a hard copy and they can get it electronically to make them aware that we are, the company is being serious about their invite.

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JB – Definitely, do you think erm, I had a good question and it’s gone… I don’t know if it comes back to me I’ll go back to it. Erm there it is, it’s come back to me, do you think that most residents would jump at the opportunity to get more involved or do you think it’s a mix, or do you think that you just end up with just a core group of people that always get involved, just what are your opinions on that?

AB – I think most residents would like to get involved because I know some people who have pretty much lived their whole life in Stockwell, in Stockwell park, and people who have been living there since, they were there even before I was born, when the original buildings were brown and light brown, they have been there from like day 1, so if some of those people get involved then obviously then you can clearly see how it was before, and how it is now, where it’s going, I think definitely most residents would like to get involved, definitely.

JB – Do you think formal involvement like sitting on a board or a panel and having a membership is good or do you think informal involvement where you just show up for the meetings you can attend or erm you know you drop off a survey every once in a while is better, or a mixture or…?

AB – Erm… that’s, I don’t know…

JB – No I mean there’s no wrong or right answer… I just wonder as you as a resident would feel would be more appropriate.

AB – The problem with a membership or some kind of member is that it might be difficult for some residents, obviously some residents are working, so there could be a meeting at 5 O’ Clock, 6 O’ Clock and the residents not available until 8 O’ Clock. I think just send an invite out so that if they can attend, they can attend, and if they can’t then then they can’t, then there’s no pressure on them to feel like oh if I don’t go then I will be missing out on something, like if for example there could be a membership, but if the member can’t attend then the meeting notes will be dropped to the residents address or a voicemail, or an e-mail, some kind of information goes to the member who could not attend. Either way it could work, a membership, a non-membership it could work as long as you keep promoting it to the residents, saying do you want to get involved, do you want to get involved because there are some things that I have seen, they drop a letter saying it’s going to happen next month and then I don’t hear anything about it, for a couple of weeks, and I’m thinking hold on do I really want to go, there’s no motivation to get residents to go.

JB – do you think residents would respond to incentive to attend meetings and things, like recently I came across this idea where you give out sort of like time vouchers, it sounds a bit weird, it’s like a whole different currency, so say a resident attended a meeting for an hour at the end of the meeting they get this new currency that has been started up that says like 1 hour, it’s like a pound note sort of thing, then you can use that to go to a leisure centre, go to the Tower of London, all sorts of stuff like accepts it as payment, do you think

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that would be a good idea, or do you think that residents would see that as a bit of a like a hand-out.

AB – That would be a good idea actually, yeah because some residents would be like ooh I’m going to get something out of it, so they’ll be like ooh, if I go for two hours then I can probably get like two hours in a museum or a leisure centre or two hours in the gym at Brixton. I would see that working actually.

JB – Yeah, because when I spoke to Dawit about it he said that it sounds like a good idea but a bigger incentive is having people there who are like important so that residents genuinely feel like their voices are being listened to by somebody who can do something about it.

AB – Yeah, but when you say important, isn’t all the residents important though? Because it is important to me as a resident, when you say important, to me I just think board-members.

JB – Yeah, no of course, I just meant like the architect for the scheme or somebody where they can directly influence what they say and do – that’s what I mean, but that was just Dawit’s impression, I just wondered how you felt about that.

AB – hmmmm

JB – You think some sort of tangible reward will be very good, I see that working a lot actually, because it’s something that a lot of Housing Associations already use. Erm so I’m going to try and explore it a little bit more. Okay so moving on, are you familiar with a concept co-production.

AB – No.

JB – No worries basically what it is, this concept that has swept through charitable organisations recently erm and into Housing Associations, and it means delivering your service in an equal and reciprocal manner, between the professionals and those who are using the service – their families and their neighbours, so it’s like a move away from doing for or doing it to the people, but doing it with them. And it involves the services being designed and then delivered in partnership with the people, erm so it sort of came about because in say like a disability charity, it was realised that people without disabilities shouldn’t really be organising and designing services for people with disabilities, because how would they know what the best thing for those people would be. So in a regeneration sense, it’s about including the residents involved in the regeneration because their the ones who live there, err so they should get to decide what goes on there. So I just wondered what your first impression is of this concept now that I have vaguely explained, briefly explained it?

AB – As a resident I would love that, yeah because you know what on the estate, well I’m talking as a resident I’m sure they want to feel like they’ve got

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the power, but to me the sense is they don ‘t, that the only people who have the power is the housing office. They see it as our ideas have not been listened to so what’s the point, that’s how it is coming across. Because I can speak to my neighbour and they’ll be like oh are you going to this meeting or that, they’ll be like why, well it’s not going to happen is it, whatever I say ain’t going to be listened to and they are going to make the final decision and it will most likely will not be what I want. That will give them more of a power to say you know what we decided what this building looks like, what goes in the building, not only what it looks like, but we decided how the building came across or how the building is or what’s going to go in the building, how this is, how that is, it’ll give them more powers I would say.

JB – And would you say it already exists at all, this idea of co-production at any stage of the regeneration, or do you not think it exists?

AB – I don’t think it does.

JB – Okay, so the consultation and whatever…

AB – ermmm okay, maybe it does to a certain stage, because I do know you invite the residents, or I know the residents get invited to I don’t know to a progress building on what the buildings like, what it’s going to look like, what the flats are going to be like and all that, but the thing is they’ve already made the decisions before inviting the residents so… For example, Weyland House the residents might feel like why have we got a meeting room and we have to be paying for it when we’re not going to be using it, if a resident had said that right at the beginning then obviously the plan could be changed, saying okay, we will take the meeting out, we’ll put lets say a gym room, instead of a meeting room there’s a gym room that the resident will be like oh okay we will pay £2 a week to walk in use the gym and walk out, but a meeting room that they have to be paying for, or a vending machine that they have to be paying for that only works… y’know I am just… yeah…. Yeah giving the residents more power on what the buildings or what the estate is becoming would be nice.

JB – Do you think that it’s realistic to be able to say to residents you have equal power and actually get equal, sorry realistic result from it?

AB – It is achievable it’s just the way it’s been set up, the way it’s been put, the way it’s been described to them, has to be like look, we will listen to you and we will definitely take on board, we will try our hardest to fix it, but we can’t guarantee it, because most residents would be like yeah but what’s the point? You need to understand that what you ask for is most likely what will happen but we will just listen to you and we will see if we can implement in, because some people will be like oh I want a swimming pool on my floor, are we going to get a swimming pool? How is the pipework going to work? If it get’s damaged, what are you going to do? So you have to, so resident’s have to be realistic for it to take place.

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JB – And this is what it means about working in partnership, it’s not about either side taking the mick essentially, no that’s good, do you think it should be introduced, maybe not at Stockwell Park just because I see it as something which needs to be introduced from the very start of a regeneration scheme and obviously Stockwell has been going for years now and in future regeneration schemes, do you thin kit is something we should explore?

AB – Oh yeah.

JB – And do you foresee any barriers to introducing it, I mean we have talked about it being realistic, parts of it but?

AB – The only barrier I can see is maybe the cost of what the residents are targeting, I’m going to go back to the swimming pool, the resident could say, oh we want a Swimming pool in the playground but that’s not realistic now is it, it has to be serviced, it has to be protected, it has to be maintained it has to be this and that, all this and that has to be done for it to be realistic, and that is not realistic. And the cost of it just because you want a swimming pool is going to be ridiculous. That’s the only barrier I can see, maybe like the cost.

JB – I think that is the main issue, obviously each scheme has got a budget and whatever else and it’s about the way in which the decisions sort of limit and you don’t want to say we’re going to co-produce this building with you and give people really high expectation on what they may be able to ask for and design themselves and then say well we can’t afford any of it, because then you’re just back to square one, sort of thing, so I think that is definitely the core of the sort of problems that could happen with co-production, so if co-production were more interested in, would you be interested in finding out more about it and potentially be interested in helping to implement co-production?

AB – Erm yeah, why not.

JB – Yeah, I mean it’s very sort of weird question but… and then is there anything else you want to know about it? Or do you want to speak about anything more of it, ask me any questions about it?

AB – I want more money for my Job! Hahaa, no cut that bit out. No erm it’s good what you’re doing, I see the aim of it now, it’s very good because it could lead to something in the next year. It’s be like oh they invited me to a meeting on what this building is going to look like, or what is going to happen to the estate or what’s going on during this and during that, duh,duh,duh,duh so yeah, I like it, sounds good.

JB – Good I am glad that you feel that way. Right that is it, that’s spot on.

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