MFDP Chapter 76

DAVID TOBIS

Interview 0160David TobisMale; whiteFDP volunteer

side 1 and 2Whites, Miss.

Qj I'd like to start out by talking to you a little aboutwhere you're from and the chronology of your coming downhere. Where are you from?

Aj I'm living, uh, in Manhassett, Long Island in New York,and I've been living there about 10 years. Before that Icame from Brooklyn, and when I was a little kid, I guessfor about two years, we lived in Mississippi, but that wasnothing permanent at all. Vrry young, I was about from1 to 3.Qj What were the reasons for your family being down here?

A j My father was stationed in the Army down here as adoctor.

Qj Is he still in the Army?

A j No, he's still a doctor (chuckle).

Qj Are you in school?

A j Yeah, I have one more year to go at Williams College.

Qj That's in (inaudible)?

Aj No no, that's in Massachusetts,

Qj Uh, are both your parents... Or rather, what was yourparents' reaction to your coming down here?

Aj Well, they were... They had gone through this all lastyear with my sister; she'd come down , you know, when it wasreally hell, and worked in the delta, and so they got usedto the fears and the tensions, but I guess she wrote morethan I did, or have been, and called more, so, so they'revery, you know. ..they don't know what's happening downhere too much, and I don't feel all the tension that I guessthey felt last year and feel apply—I think they feel thesame tension applies this year, and they're kind of nervousand upset now. Initially, they were, you know, they werein favor of my coming down here. They feel this type ofcivil rights work has to be done, and when they were youngkids, they did the same sort of things that we are fortheir day.

Qj Their objections are because of your safety and nothingelse then?

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A: Oh yeah.

Q: Your sister was down here last year?

A: Yeah.

Q: She's older than you?

A: No, she's younger. She worked in Shaw and Woelvllle onvoter registration and freedom school teaching.

Q; How old is she?

A: She's a year younger than I am. She was born in Mississippi. She's, I think, a sophomore, at Olympia Junior atChicago University. She's about... l guess that'll make herabout. . .she'll be 20 in December.Qj You're 21 then?

A: Yeah, I was just 21 down here.Q: Do you think the fact that your sister came down madeit easier for you to come down?

A: You mean as far as my parents?

Q: Yeah, your parents and otherwise.A: Well, it partly made it easier on my parents becausethey'd gone through it once before, but my parents havenever told me that I couldn't do anything, you know. Therewas only one thing my father said I can't do, and that'ssmoke. Other than that, he just guides and suggests. Thefact was that I wanted to come down here, and he let me.

Qj Did you sister influence you at all to come down here?

A: No, it wasn't that type of influence at all. It wasmore just seeing how she had developed, not only in Missis-sippi, but just as a person and the types of things shewas interested in. And that sort, of , you know, sparked aninterest, and I sort of became involved in civil rights upat school, at college. One of the projects we sort of gotinto by chance was building a (inaudible) church in ClayCounty—in Monroe County, a Union Baptist church, and Icame down here, and I got in touch with John Buffington andthe COFO workers around here, and I began to see thatbuilding churches is pretty useless because while we weredown here, three other churches were burned, and buildingchurches doesn't really change anything. That's all. It'sthe type of work the civil rights workers are doing thatseems to change things.

Q: When was this that you cane down to build the church?

0160-3A: The end of march, the beginning of April.

Q: Did you take off from school?

A: No, it was during spring vacation... l spent two weeksdown here.

Q: You mentioned that your parents did such things whenthey were younger. Were they ever involved in this sortof civil rights activity?

A: ...tell me they were organizing parents. They weresummer volunteers, and my father was co-chairman of theMedical Committee for Human Rights, which was working downin Mississippi, and I guess when they were younger, it waslabor that they were involved in, not the Civil RightsMovement .Q: Where do they stand?

A: Left.

Q: (inaudible)

A: Oh no, that's right. I would imagine socialistic.Qj They pretty much agree?

A: The two of them? Oh yeah.

( inaudible ) . . .the Movement?Q:

A: Not really, no. I don't think so.Q: (inaudible)

A: Not democrats and republicans, I don't think.

Qj Are they. ..(inaudible). ..labor or civil rights?

Aj I don't know.

Qj How about yourself? How do you consider youself ?

A: On shakey ground. 1...y0u mean, politically? Urn . ..about a year ago I was sort of an idealistic leftest with-out having any idea of what politics or what socialism wasall about. And, you know, I thought socialism was a goodthing without ever having any contact with it—I'm exag-gerating now, you know, but I was thinking in absolutes,you know, like the Soviet Union; that was a good thing, andthe United States was a bad thing. And now, I guess toparticipate not only in the Movement, but in the SDS and,you know, other sorts of political activity and talking topeople, I guess the position I have now is a much more

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realistic one, but it's still very far left, you know. I'mvery far left. People start using the word radical; some-body's radical when they're talking about somebody who wasonce, you know, the girl, she was saying that somebodywanted to bomb all the white houses and all the white busi-nesses, and that's radical. Well, I don't really thinkthat's radical. That's, that's just foolish, I think.Radical. ..you know, one time if you're a thinking person,you're a radical. Now I kind of feel that radical is some-body that's.. .it can't really be a philosophy. Down hereradical is just the most expedient way of doing things andbringing about change, like Ine people in this area that we'vetalked to have no political consciousness as far as con-servative or radical or left or—I don't imagine anybodyknows what communism means. But still they're thinking inthose terms, and, you know, I think now I'm getting awayfrom left-wing dogmatism. »ii

Qj Is that how your political. ..(inaudible). .. ?

Aj Well, I guess the part—I don't know if you'd call SDSa political institution, but that's about of the orientationof which I would consider myself. I'm not old enough...well, yes lam old enough to vote. But I wouldn't, youknow. . .democrats and republicans and liberals just seem alittle foolish. I don't really see any difference betweenthe three of them, just extent or degree, but it's in-teresting. . .essentially the country's been a one-partysystem, I think. Through... l have a feeling that throughthe change that's coming about with the Civil Rights Move-ment it's going to bring a whole new political structurethat's much more further left orientated.

Qj Are you a member of any other civil rights activitiesbesides SDS?

Aj Just the Civil Rights Committee.

Qj Is the SDS. ..(inaudible). .. ?

A j Well, the SDS just got started a year ago at Williams.

Qj Is that so?

A j Yeah, I worked in>the beginning.

Qj Do you remember any other sort of political. ..(inaudible)?

Aj Yeah, I was the chairman of the Civil Rights Committeeat Williams.

Qj Were there other civil rights organizations there?

Aj Well, see, at college there are justmoo many people withdifferent views, so you couldn't have a SNCC chapter. There

0160-5would be nothing to do if you had a SNCC chapter exceptraise money, and some people are interested in this and somepeople are interested in that—everybody that's interestedin civil rights, and it may lose a lot of the force thatSNCC has, but it gets much greater support, and it canraise more money that way.

Qj Was it SNCC that you came down here to work for?

Aj No, when I came down here in April, I spoke to John.At that time I was all set to drop out of school, you know,finish the year and then...l intended to come down here andwork for a year, and I spoke to John, and he said thatwould be fine. Then while I was back at at school I changedmy mind and decided to come down for this summer and seeabout this... the fall here and just told John. I ddn't gothrough the Jackson. I just came down here to work withhim and to get other people to come.Qj Do you think you would leave after a whole year?

Aj That's a difficult question. Like. . .yesterday I wasall set that I was going back to school because I was de-pressed about a lot of things, and the day before I was allset to take a trip to Cuba or Mexico— just, just bust outof here and go someplace, and today I was sitting in theback of the truck driving it back to town, and I looked atthis guy—you know, a local kid who's been working with us,and I thought about he had come, come and really early thismorning and woke us all up because he wanted to get the truckto get into town any way he could so he could pick up thetruck so he could pick up the kids at Section and atPoosie so that we could have this joint meeting, and thingslike that. When things like that happen, I'm all set tostay. But I'm still a little confused. One more year ofschool, and I think if you get the movement of philosophy...I think it's the looseness, you know, if things happenthey happen. I don't know. So if I stay down here a year,it could be 10 years before I'm out of here, and I don'tknww whether.... and I also think too, you know, after awhile of talking to people and canvassing and passing outliterature gets a little. . .useless, and people with skillsshould be down here, people like carpenters or doctors orlawyers or people who can contribute something, rather thanjust working, and maybe I should bet some sort of skilllike that.

Qj You want to come back $own after school then?

Aj Oh, you see, after I finish school, there's a possi-bility I might go to medical school. And Mississippi mightbe like New York by the time I finish medical school. Ithink, though, that I would do some work in the Movement,at least for a year after I graduate from college. Icouldn't go straight to medical school. Uh, I also might

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stay down here, you know, in September, working and stuff.

Q j ( largely inaudible ) . . .Civil Rights Movement. . .Aj Uh..l think....you pose really fleeting questions. Ithink that It's hopefuly changing. Think till about fiveyears ago, people were still paralyzed by McCarthy-ism,and now people are beginning to gradually overcome this,and I think the Civil Rights Movement has helped that tohappen. The people begin to speak out on civil rights,and when they see they can do that, then they can do thesame about Vietnam, and I don't really see a big differencebetween the Civil Rights Movement and the Peace Movement inVietnam. . .against the war in Vietnam, or the Berkeley FreeSpeech Movement.

Qj How do you feel about the Vietnam situation?

Aj Uh, it's bad!

Qj What stand do you take?

Aj See before, when I thought I knew something about Viet-nam, I thought we should just get out. Now that I know Idon't know anything about Vietnam, I think there have gotto be negotiations before you just pull out, because thesituation is as screwed up as it is over there, it mightbe more harmful just to whew, leave. Uh, I think we've gotto stop bombing and shooting and, you know, the whole bit,and discuss and leave as fast as we could. The UnitedStates just has n0t...n0 right to be in there at all.

Qj You don't agree with immediate withdrawal?

A j I, I don't think immediate withddrawal is possible atthis point, you know. At one time, maybe, but not now.See that's the trouble j people talk about things ideally,and it just doesn't fit reality. I think you've got to haveimmediate negotiations.

Qj What about non-violence? Do you consider yourself nonviolent?

Aj Well, before I came down here, I had extensive dis-cussions with everybody, you know, whether I would be non-violent or not. Then I convinced myself that I would benon-violent for myself, but if I saw, you know, somethinglike my sister being beaten up or somebody about to rapeher, I wouldn't be too non-violent. And... oh, then I evenconvinced myself that you've got to, you know, respect theother man's dignity and the whole bit, but that was becauseI had never been in a situation where you had to be non-violent, and I don't kn0w. ..1 don't think that if I werewalking down a dark road, and if five people jumped out ofthe bushes with knives, and there was no way I could run,

0160-7I really, don't think I'd just stand there. 1... 1ike wewere in freedom school, and one kid—we were talking about,they were talking non-violence just about fighting, whatwould happen if we went bad to the Sale Barn—they almostbeat us up last time; they hit a couple of kids —and onekid said, 'Well, in the Bible it tells you to turn theother cheek if they slap you on the cheek, but it doesn'ttell you what to do if they slap the other cheek, ' and Ithink maybe that's my position. You can, you can take somenon-violence, but there are times—I know if you're in asituation—see I've still never been in a situation whereI was faced with a life-and-death struggle. You know, ifpeople started walking in here one night after we've gonfeto the Sale Barn (?) —people,..we thought somebody wascoming—you know, I picked up a board, you know. I wasn'tgoing t0...y0u know, to hit somebody if they started comingat me. I... ldeally non-violence is a beautiful way of life,but we're living in a real world, and people aren't ideal.Qj You couldn't then consider yourself a pacifist.

Aj No, I don't hold pacifistic points of view, because thenyou get all hung up about the Cuban revolution, you know,and I don't think that could have possibly happened non-violently. People had to get killed. I don't think theAmerican Revolution could have happened non-violently orpacifistlcally, so I'm, uh...l'm not a pacifist.

Qj Did you have any idea of the roles of the differentcivil rights organizations before you came down?

Aj Again—I had some idea of what it was all about. AgainI was thinking in black and whites, that SNCC is good andNAA is bad, and King is, you know, sort of wishy-washy andnot for the long-range programs. But now I don't thinkthat way anymore, because there's a use for all these or-ganizations, and... l guess there are many ways to bringabout change, and I don't think they 're . . .the NAA is—I kind of feel that it's different in the North than in theSouth. I think Medgar Evers and this guy Jack Jackson herehave something really courageous and are really doing goodthings, so I don't hate the NAA. I think they're doinggood, and I think it's a shame that there's no coordinatedeffort. The fact the COFO, you know, failed, reflects thedisunity, but I think now, that that's all you can reallyexpect because there's nothing that says all black peopleare alike; there's nothing that says all white people arealike, and white people have a lot of political organiza-tions, so so should black people.

Q. Has your opinion of Martin Luther King changed since youcqme down?

A. Yeah, I'm a lot more sypathetic to King. Like he had a

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demonstration in Boston. Some friends of mine. . .friends ofmine who were left, passed out literature against it becausethey felt he was going to mess up the SDS project that was ggoing. You know, take all the support away from that. Be-cause they were doing block orgainizing, and they thought hewould just swoosh down there and get a few more people somejobs and just wreck the whole SDS project. But I think it'sa shame he's this charismatic leader, but I still think he'sbringing about valuable changes.

Q. Did you have much contact with Negroes before becomingactive in civil rights work?

A. Well, we had an integrated school, but most of my friendsweren't Negro. There was one guy on the basketball team thatI was friends with. There were a couple at college who wereyou know, Negroes-in-residence at this college. Five Negoresat the school, something like that.

Q. Were they working in civil rights?

A. Yeah, yeah. A couple nominally and one or two actively.

Q. How many people were working in this group in Massachusetts?

A. About twenty five. There were five teachers and twelvecollege students and six students from a prep school. Thatdoesn't make twenty five, but it's something like that.

Q. Did you get much contact with. ... (rest of question inaudible)

A. Yeah a fair amount, mostly my sister and a couple of herfriends. And a couple of people who lived in the South. Theguy I'm rooming with next year is from Alabama. I talked tohim.

Q. What sort of thing convinced you to come down?

A. Well I think the people who convicned me to come downwhen I was talking to Buffin&J'and other people who wereworking here. You know, when you just talk to people youcan*t tell what's going on, you can't feel the change. Andyou can't feel what the movements all about.

Q. Did you become interested in civil rights then or. .A. Now there's a real difference between, you know.... Sincemy parents are politically left and, you know, socially aware,I guess the philosophy they brought uphthe three kids withwas thettype of thing that's going on in the movement. Andthat's when I became conscious of it. You know, I was veryyoung. And involved... maybe this last September, a year ago,

0160-4when I became involved and charrman of the civil rightscommittee which is really kind of strange.

Q. Have you participated in any of the demonstrations inthe North?

A. Have I, in the North? Yeah, I was in the march aboutthe war in Vietnam, and I picketed with the SDS againstGeneral Electric against their policy in South Africa.I've...you know, before coming down here.

Q. Can you tell us something of your experience(rest of question inaudible)

A. Oh the cattle sale. Cattle are sold on Friday, and thenight before, on Thursday, we had a meeting with the kids aroundhere, and they wanted to bu& a pig for a barbegue to raisesome money. We also wanted to sit in the good seats, becausethe Negroes when they buy or sell animals have to sit wayin the back and they can't see the scales, and they can'tsee what they're getting for their animals. The auctioneerjust gives them a couple of dollars and they have no idea ifthat's what their animal sold for. And there were good seatsright in front where the white people sit. So they weregoing to sit in those seats. Then we went to buy the animal,and before , . . .the sale starts at one, and at about twelveo'clock we wwnted to get some soda. So we went into therestaurant that's adjacent to the sale grounds. A coupleof guys went to the counter, and three Negroes and I satdown at a table. And a kid come over with this big cluband put it in my face and said, "Get outta here. We're notgonna serve you and those niggers. Get outta here or I'lljust smash you." So we just sat and said all we wanted wasa soda. We were very quiet and talked. And then theystarted pushing and. shouting the other Negroes that were withus, and yelling. They kept threatening until we got up andleft and stood outside. And then the most beautiful thingshappened. We were standing around outside, and a couple ofthe guys who were with us worked at the place. They said,"If they're not going to serve us, we're not going to work."So one guy quit his job, and he started talking to otherpeople. There were about eight guys that just quit theirjobs and there were adults also. There were only ten Negroesthat worked there, and eight out of the ten quit. Thisguy's wife who workd in the kitchen, she quit also, sospontaneous, sort of beautiful. Oh then, you know, thesheriff came and took us to jail for disturbing the peace.And, you know, as we were dragged off... taken to jail, thewhite guys with, God, you know, shoulders four inches widerthan a normal persons. Six two or three inches tall with thisenormous club, Wham, started swinging it and hit a coupleof guys. One little kid, Negro kid, who was with us, very

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weak, grabbed him and bit him. That was kinda good. That'sall.

Q. Had you had any trouble with the police befroe this?

A. Well, we tried to play baseball in the park the day before,and they had us run around while we were playing. That's all.

Q. When did you get down here?

A. I stayed at the school a couple of extra weeks to writesome papers and I got down here the seventeenth of June.I went to Jackson for a day or so and then came here.

Q. What sort of activities did you do when you were inJackson and here?

A. Well, canvas ing, from day to day planning and door to doortaliking to people about getting registered to vote. Acouple of days we went to town to take kids to the library.We tried some tests on public accommodations. One raljybeautiful thing happened. This little kid, about fourteen,with this shirt, and he wrote on the back of it, "I supportClay County MFDP." We were marching through torwn, and westopped at one of these bathrooms at a gas station that says"Colored" and "White", and he went into the bathroom lastand painted over the signs. I imagine the bathrooms are stillsegregated, but the signs aren't there anymore. See that'sone of the things that's kind of upsetting. I don't know ifany of these integrations of public accommodations ispermanent. They take off the "Colored only" signs and the"White Only" signs, but they're still segregated.

What else did we have going? We tried to organize theformers, the cotton shoppers, people that were getting threedollars a day. A lot of people quit jobs doing it. Theproblem is it's not been concerted. There's been a few guysat this guy's place, ten people here, maybe thirty or fortyaltogether over the county, who quit.

Q. ( Inaudible )

A. No, it's not quite as formal as that. It's just if you'regoing to get three dollars a day, you quit. This guy Leon,the kid with the shirt, he was working in the fields and choppingand he talked to other people and he got eight people towalk out. This little kid. There's something beautifulabout that.

Q. Have you been teaching here?

A. Oh yeah, I've been teaching. The most consistent classwe had was with the younger kids, and that verges, is that theword, verges, and that verges on nursery school. You know,camp, and I'm not convinced that's as valuable as it could be.I'm for more working with older kids, and discussing. One daywe had a discussion on non-violence, and we tried to set up

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a class in birth control and one day we discussed excerptsfrom Baldwin and King and Lilian Smith and just talikedabout the thing. They published this newspaper. That's thesort of thing the freedom association can do.

Q. (Inaudible)

A. Yeah, it's nothing. One day Melinda feels like teachingacjn one day I feel like teaching. I think it's best thatway. It gives the kids a better chance and it gives us abetter chance to do a few things.

Q. So a typical day would be.

A. Uh, we get up about eight o'clock. We used to get upa lot earlier because kids would come around at about sevenin the morning, but we put an end to that very quickly.And we sit around and have coffee and breakfast. Sue makesbreakfast every day, and we're very nice; we do the dishes.And we sweep up the place. Class is supposed to start aboutnine. It usually gets going about nine fifteen, sometimesninethirty. And that's over about eleven. And maybe we'llgo out canvassing or get kids, that's what we like to dois get kids to go canvassing. And spend a fair amount of timewriting letters for money, and supplies, and things like that.The afternoons are not always as productive as they couldbe I think. We waste some time. I'm not always... I'm notconvinced that you could do without that waste of time, andthe evenings, every evening has a meeting. Either it's theFreedom Democratic Party or it's the MSU or it's theplanningcommittee for the MSU or it's going to the boycott.

Q. Has your attitude towards the (rest of question inaudible)

A. I'm not exactly sure what my attitude was beforehand.Mostly I'm not sure what my attitude is n^w, so I can't sayhow it's changed. I think that's a very bad question, toask about your attitude towards a group of people whenyou've got hundreds and hundreds of people. Bobby Jonesis a really beautiful kid. He's willing to do really greatthings and take a lot of risks. And Miss Segerson, she gota car... a brick thrown through her car, and she's still willingto do boycotting, and demonstrating, and organize meetings,and she doesn't care about that. She carries a pistol in herbrassiere, she says, and she's very nice, you know. You gotto talk about individual people. 1...Qj (inaudible)

A j Yeah, they're Negro. (chuckle) It's just to hard to thinkto say. Maybe because I haven't thought about it, but I can'tanswer.Qj (inaudible)

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A j Ithought they'd be a lot more vicious and a lot moreantagonistic. And I think maybe they are to civil rightsor to things in the abstract, or to Negroes in the abstract,or to COFO workers in the abstract, but one day we weredriving in a car - we were hitch-hiking, Sue and I, she'swhite - and we were picked up by this woman, she didn't knowwho we were and all, she was very apprehensive, and when shefound out we were civil rights workers - "Oh don't tell my hus-band, don't talk to these Nigras over here, they're on ourland and my husband would shoot you." But after a while, youknow, as we were driving, she began to think that maybe allcivil rights workers don't have long grubby hair and beards,and don't curse and just go around like that. I think whenpeople begin to - even Southern whites - begin to face othersas individuals, and aren't that much more hostile. At thesow barn they were very hostile, because they - they weren'tconcerned with individuals. It was this THEY are integratingOUR restroom - that's all they could see. But I think ifwe were to talk - there was one guy we began to be able totalk to a little. If we could talk to individuals, I'msure that there could be some sort of understanding involved.It wouldn't just be pride and hate. When I came down the firsttime to rebuild these churches, I became aware of the Southernmoderate, the white moderate, that I had just never knownexisted before. You know, people who are for bringing aboutchange and might even support COFO, but are completelyparalized by living in Mississippi. They just can't do anythingthey're even more afraid than the Negroes.

Qj (inaudible)

Aj The mayor.

Qj (inaudible)

Aj Ah, the sheriff I think is honestly concerned withprotecting us. He's ah - a very - you know, want to bringabout things very slowly, and very legally, and don't forcethings. He's cordial if you don't push him the whole way,and tell him what you're doing before hand. The chief ofpolice, or the assistant chief of police - I think is a veryfriendly guy, if he weren't involved in the police force Ithink he might even stop by here and talk to us. That mightbe an exaggeration. The mayor - I only met him when I wasdown here building churches, and he came to talk to our group,and - he's a typical Southern - that's a bad generalization -he's a typical politican.

Qj (inaudible)

Aj Well, locally, or - I feel that it could grow into a realpolitical force for the whole country, not just in Mississippi.That's what I'd like to see. And I don't think, you know,it's going to become an all black party. I think eventually,within a couple years, maybe Southern whites will be able toparticipate in it also. The Freedom Democratic Party - seemslike you want me to talk about the Clay County project.There are a lot of things that are wonderful about it, butthere are, you know, I guess it might be better to talk

0160-13about the bad things, because everybody talks about thegood things. The inefficiency, the waiting until thingsfall apart before you try and do any - fix em up, like a carthe muffler is on the verge of falling off for three weeks,nobody brought it in before it fell off, and they have to goto Columbus to get a new part. Things like that are a painin the neck. There are also many too many whites working inthis county. It doesn't allow for Negro leadership -it makesthe people feel that it's a white man's movement, ratherthan... I also think, I was talking to Joel about this lastnight, I also think that John Buff en, shouldn"t be the projectdirector, but a local person should.

Q j ( inaudible )

Aj Well, I certainly do not think that they have a shortageof leadership. I think it would take training somebody toknow all the intricacies of community organizing, or how youwrite to the SNICK office, and which are the places you getin touch with, and help from the government, and all that.I think it could be done. I don't know. Maybe it's ah -the philosophy of SNICK, FDP. . . Maybe it's fear to reallylet the local people run things. See, now I think, at leastin Clay County, in many of the projects it's ah - we'll letthe local people do it - but it's not always that way. There'sa veneer of having the local people do it, where it's alot of pushing and prodding from the civil rights workers.You see ah - like this newspaper. The newspaper's all beendone by the kids, but we still have to come up with theidea, wouldn't it be nice to have a newspaper. And it'sgotta get to the point where they think of things like thisthemselves. I don't think it is there yet. That's a short-coming. Maybe it's a shortcoming because there are toomany whites.

Qj How many whites (inaudible)

A j In one station? Four. You could do it with one. WhatI'd like to see done, but I don't know how anybody elsefeels, is have local people move into this project, stayhere so it's their project, they're not helping us, everybody'sparticipating together. That's what it's like now - if peopledo things, they're helping us. And that's just wrong.

Qj (inaudible)

Aj Oh no, I like that. I like -oh yes, very much. I justthink it should be more so, and it should be developing leadersmore than that's been done. It's just get people involved andinterested, rather than - and spontaneously somebody will rise.Now some cases that does happen, but in many cases you haveto train people, because the leaders don't just happen, they'vebeen trained for their whole lives.

Qj (inaudible)

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Aj I mean I'd like to see a different government in theUnited States. 0.X., you can elect a different government.I don't think we've got to have a revolution. But at timesI think I don't know if change is really going to happenunless it is. I have a feeling that maybe Mississippi isgoing to end up like New York, which is awfully screwed up.And if a revolution would come about it wouldn ' t . . .But Ithink if, you know - I mean violence. I think if that wereto happen, it would start in New York or in Chicago. A friendah - this is off the track I guess - a friend was from the South.I asked him, "How come there's absolutely no support for theBlack Muslims in Mississippi?" You know, he's a liberal guy.He says, "Well, in Mississippi they still hope, in New Yorkthere's just no hope at all." And that's why a revolution wouldbegin in New York. I don't know about, you know, working throughthe system, or trying to change the system. I think you gottause all streams possible. Maybe elect - you know, getting peopleto register, and they can elect somebody, can elect a Socialist,you don't have to elect a Johnson.

Qj Do you think the movement is headed towards ...( inaudible )

Aj What's the fate of the world? That's the question.

Qj Well, what's the end of the movement?

Aj I don't think there'll ever be an end to the movement.I don't - you know, thirty years ago it was a labor movement,and then ten years ago it was a peace movement, now it'sa civil rights movement, and there'll be a movement - in thenext ten years it'll be an Indian movement, and then after thatit'll be - society isn't going to end up the way SNICK or SDSwants it to, which is a real shame. I don't think eitherthat it's going to end up the way the NAACP wants it. Youknow, maybe - I don't know, at first, you know, before I camedown here, I condemned the middle class values, and having alot of money and cars, and being able to go to Europe, andthings like that. And then I talked to John Buffington, andhe, you know - I was sort of embarrassed about the fact thatI came from a well-to-do middle class family. And he was sayingthat his father has a lot of money and he's not embarassedabout it at all, he's proud of his father, and you know, maybe -and it wouldn't be bad if the people around^here got mone^yand had all these convieniences. I don 'tv 'about middle classvalues, but middle class conveniences are a nice thing.

Qj Do you think you attitude about American society haschanged at a11....?Aj American society as a whole. Ah, no I don't think

Qj (inaudible)

Aj No, I don't think it's changed much. I, you know, I wasI disagreed with it and thought it was bad, rotten, and thewhole structure had to be changed. I still think that.

0160-15Qj What about religion? (inaudible)

A j I once talked to a minister at Williams, and he askedme my political - my religious views, and I said I wasan athilest. He said describe that. That I don't believe inGod, it's sort of pe6ple working together. . .that sortjof stuff.And he said that he had the exact same feelings, that there'sno God in the sky, or God in your mind, it's just God inevery person. And I think that's the only religious valueI have. This minister, by the way, sort of felt that - afterthis discussion came to the conclusion that God is the we inWe Shall Overcome. That's a nice way to put it.Qj (inaudible)

A j No " No "Qj (inaudible )

A j Yeah, I went through - all through that rigamarole. Thestand up, sit down stuff. I was bahr mitzvahed, and evenconfirmed. But I think I was bahr mitzvahed because everbodyyou know, that happens. I don't think my kid would be thoughI was confirmed though, because I liked the Rabbi, he was agood person, and I was interested in finding about the historyand the culture. It's more like a course.Q j ( inaudible )

A j Ah, no. Ah, you know. I used to not eat bread on PassoverI stopped doing that. You know, there's no religious belief -religiosity in me anymore.

Q j Do your parents , . . ( inaudible )

A j They were born Jewish, and my father would like to - likegoing to services on the high holidays, but I don't thinkhe goes anymore, and I certainly don't.

Q j ( inaudible )

Aj No, no. Everybody's. .. .my sister too, my brother too.

Q j How old werejyou. . . . ( inaudible )

Aj No. It - I don't know if it's possible to generalize.In some places it's a real anchor, slowing things i down, andwait for God, and God 'll do things. And sometimes everything'sorganized initially in the churches... l mean when I was downhere building a church there was one song that people sang -"There's a flame in my heart and it's keeping me alive" -maybe that was the function of religion, it gave people somesort of hope to live with what a lot of the people downhere had to. You know, you needed that type of religion, andI think there's still too much of that, and that people 'vegot to go to church, and you've gotta end your meeting with -it's, you know, annoying. And I think, hopefully, people are

0160-16

going to begin start singing the freedom songs in church,or begin to make announcements about (?) and about freedom.I think maybe through the church things can happen. I thinkeverybody down here, though, is religious, and I don'tthink they've stopped to think why, or what religion reallyis. But I think maybe if people begin to question therecan be change,and I think there has to be change, becausethere's a very - you know, their relation to God is justlike their relationship to the slave owner. Part of thewhite structure around here.

(inaudible)... part of a minority group.Q:Aj Jewish? Just the philosophy cf. . .my parents were ofJewish philosophy. I don't think being in a minority groupor having been discriminated against. I don't think thathad anything to do with it.

Qj (inaudible)

A j Well, you know, just a couple of anti-Jewish jokes andthings like that, but I was never oppressed. Is that whatyou said? Depressed by it, but never oppressed.

Qj Do you think that your experience down here has changedyou at all?

Aj Intellectually? Well, it's made me a lot more disor-ganized, and... l guess maybe that's because it's surroundingand a lot more, you know, things happen to happen. I'm alot more willing to accept things. A lot madder—I think towork in this civil rights, you've just got to have madnessjust to do things and take chances. A lot of the peopledown here, you kn0w... 1 guess maybe the people at the NAACPorientation don't have any of this. You don't just goalong; you've got to try crazy things. I think that's whysome of that has happened. I would hope anyway. I don'tknow about intellectually. Maybe I'm, you know, going toaccept people, because I used to accept people absolutely,they're either good or bad; they're either for you oragainst you, you know, and now there are aspects of peoplethat are beautiful, you know. You can have... like I sawone guy, a real racist, but he was wonderful with thesekids, and that's nice, and it still made him a good person.

Qj How about emotionally?

Aj Well, I feel a little. . .like I'm slipping about this.It still takes me a long time to develop friends, you know,people you can really communicate with, really communicate,REALLY communicate, and as yet that hasn't happened withany of the local people. You know, you talk and you joke,but it's still not getting beyond—some of it's gettingbeyond—you know, you forget people are Negro, but it'sstill never getting really to personal things. With thecivil rights workers, the other white people around here,

0160-17everybody's close and friendly, but it's not the type of thingwhere you can discuss basic problems, and there's nobodyyou can turn to. You know, you can talk, and you can writeletters, you know, peck at things, but it's still not...I think there's a lot of this in the Mvement. Or Buffington,he's been sort of rambling around and going on and on, butthere's nobody that he's very close with, I don't think.Qj (inaudible)

Aj No, I feel that a 10t. . .we11. . .Q j . . . ( inaudible ) . . .your experience with. .Aj Maybe I feel that. ..sorry, I'm more introverted, and thatI'm very conscious that I'm white, you know. Not always,but like one day I went to a party and asked a girl to dance,and she said no because she was Negro, and it's verydepressing. I'm still thinking. . .very cautious in talking—I'm very hesitant in talking with the Negro girls, veryself-conscious —not so much with the Negro guys. Also 1...anyway I'm introverted that way. I'm also annoyed at times,like last night we had trouble with the car, and therewere a lot of Negroes standing around and laughing, youknow.

Qj Then your experience with black-white. .. (inaudible)

Aj No, there's been absolutely none of that. Maybe there'sbeen none of that because it's a real problem. I think, youknow, this is...a lot of fear. Oh boy! And there's beenvery little social...you know, boy-girl relationships hereat all, at least on this project. The guys, you know, theNegro guys are all coming around very friendly, but Ihaven't become very good friends with—you know, friendsrather than just saying hello—with any of the Negro girlswho are my age. Now the nine and ten-year-olds and I getalong fine.

Qj ...in the community. . . ( inaudible ) . . .from the Negroes toyourself . . . ( inaudible )

A j I've been aware 0f... It's more what?

Qj ...shining spirits. ..(inaudible). . .A j Towards us? Well, some of that, but you know, like...people began calling us sir, sir, and that gradually diedout, and the last kid who called us sir stopped calling ussir about two days ago. Maybe that's indicative of achange and an improvement of relationships. I haven't—you know, people—one woman ran away when she saw Susanwalking up because she ' was going to get in trouble, ' andyou know, maybe there's resentment like that, and there

0160-18

is a lot 0f... y0u know, when you're going to people'shouses, and you hear, 'what are these people coming downhere for?' There's some of that.. . l don't... but not reallyin this community. . .Qj (inaudible)

Aj No go. I haven't gone backlittle too much.

to those houses. It was a

Qj (inaudible)

A j Do we still have tape?

Q j Yes .Aj Well, let me think. . .something to... sum up the essence—what was the word you used?

Qj (inaudible). . .something about the freedom.

A j The kids that come from...

Qj You said that you didn't really see the Negro as...(in-audible ) . . .Aj Hmmm, let me think of something to talk about. No, allI can talk about is the mouse that jumped out of the refrigerator and how the celling leaks when it rains and the fliesinfesting the place and the outhouses flooding so you don'tknow the difference between going outside and inside, andthe pump is outside, and there's no stove and...

END OF TAPE