Mr Dlamini, did you hear any reports to the effect that

these pupils whom you were going to address, were in any way

reluctant to abide by the decision of the SPCC to return to

school the next day? — No.

So, as far as you were concerned, you were going to

address a meeting of pupils who were quite prepared to return to school the next day, not so? — Yes.

Now, therefore, you must have gone there to address them

on other subjects or on other matters, not so? -- Well, like

discipline, yes, and other matters. (10)

Right, let us deal then with those matters, Mr Dlamini.You wanted to address them on discipline. What did you want

to say to them about discipline? — That they should comply to

the laws and regulations of the school and the uniform part of

it, what must' be worn at school as a uniform. I mean, line%

since all corporal punishment was put aside.

Let us deal with the uniform. Let us take then one by

one. You wanted them to wear their school uniforms. Is that

correct? — Yes.

Was there any problem about school children wearing (20)

school uniforms before? — You see, on the resolutions of the

SPCC, is that schools are no more to wear different uniforms like tunics, some are having red, blue and the likes. They

must all wear black and white, you see. And no school fees

and the likes.That is what you were going to talk to them about, Mr

Dlamini, is that not so? — That is part of what we were going*to talk about.

You were going to tell them about the resolutions that were passed at the SPCC meeting? — Yes, the first resolution (30)

was/

29

C38.52 - 1 047 - DLAMINI

was going back to school on the 28th.

Well, that we have dealt with already, Mr Dlamini.

Another resolution was that children should no longer wear

different school uniforms. They should all wear the same

uniform right throughout the country. Is that correct? —

Correct.

A black and white uniform? — Yes.

And is that one of the things that you wanted to go and tell them to do? -- Yes.

What else? -- That there would be no more school fees (10)paid.

That they should refuse to pay school fees? -- No, not

refuse, because the resolutions read no more school fees. So,

they must not ask their parents for school fees money.

That is *a very fine distinction, Mr Dlamini. Because the

SPCC decided that they should not pay school fees, you were

going to tell the children not to ask their parents for school fees? — That is it.

In other words, you were going to tell them not to pay

school fees? — Yes. (20)

What else? Let me assist you, Mr Dlamini. You also mentioned something in your evidence which is about the

abolisment of corporal punishment? — Yes.

What were you going to say about that? — Corporal punishment, I mean, whilst I was in school, if a teacher hates

you, he would hit you every day I would say, for minor reasons as well.

Yes? — So, corporal punishment was abolished.By who? — By the resolutions which were taken at the

SPCC. (30)So/

C38.54 - 1 048 - DLAMINI

So, the SPCC decided that there would be no more corporal

punishment by teachers on pupils. Is that correct? —

Correct.

And you were going to say to them that they will no

longer be punished by school teachers in terms of the

resolution of the SPCC? — Yes.

But now, now that there was no longer going to be

corporal punishment, how was discipline going to be maintained?

-- This punishment, this corporal punishment, so corporal

punishment, it means excess punishment, but punishment will be (1 0)

there, but not excessive.

I do not understand, Mr Dlamini. What was the decision

taken by the SPCC in regard to corporal punishment? — There

will be no more corporal punishment.

At all? .7— Corporal punishment means excessive punishment.

No, Mr Dlamini, corporal punishment, if you give a child

one lash with a cane, that is corporal punishment. — That is

punishment.

So, you say that the SPCC decided that there would be no

more corporal punishment and you interpret that to mean (2 0)

excessive corporal punishment? -- Yes.

Now, how would you define excessive corporal punishment?

-- I mean, if you punish a kid you give him three lashes.

Yes? — You have punished him or her enough than giving

him ten or six.But did the SPCC lay down any guidelines as far as

corporal punishment was concerned? — Well, they did not put any guidelines. They just stipulated that corporal punishment,

it is abolished. So, it is for the teachers to decide. I mean, they are learned people. They understand that now they (30)

should/

C38.56 - 1 049 - DLAMINI

should punish their kids, because if they do not, then there

will be no, they cannot inflict law in that sense.

Incidentally, Mr Dlamini, did you attend the meeting of the SPCC at Wits? — No, I did not.

You did not? But were you shown a document containing the decisions that were taken? — The resolutions, yes.

You have mentioned some of them to us. Can you remember any others? You told us about the uniforms, the school fees,

the corporal punishment. What else did the SPCC decided, that you wanted to go and address these pupils on? Was there a (10) document? -- Yes, there was.

What kind of document was it, Mr Dlamini? — A pamphlet­like document.

A pamphlet issued by the SPCC? — SPCC.

And do you have a copy of that available? -- Well, I had a copy. I do not know whether there is a copy.

And did you take that, did you take a copy of that

pamphlet with you when you went to this meeting at St. Peters?— No, I did not have it.

Well, did you then remember what was in it? Did you (20)

remember what you were going to talk to the children about? -

— Well, at that time it was an in thing. I mean, it was ...

Yes, it was still fresh in your memory? — That is true.

You remembered exactly what was in the pamphlet and what you were going to talk about? — Yes.

Now you cannot remember anything more than three factors which you have mentioned? --- At the moment I cannot remember.

Right. -- I might be remembering ...

Think about it and if you can remember anymore, just tell

us about it. In any event, you then went there with Laurence (30)

and/

C38.58 - 1 050 - DLAMINI

and you were going to be afforded an opportunity to address

these pupils. Is that how you understood the position? —Yes.

And Laurence was going to address them, too? — Yes, in fact, it was Laurence who was invited.

Laurence was invited and he just asked you to come along?—— Yes, as far as he told me, he was invited by the students to address them also.

But did Laurence tell you what he had to go and address them on? — Well, he said to address them on the SPCC (10)resolutions.

COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH.

C38.60 - 1 051 - DLAMINI

1C39.00 - 1 052 - DLAMINI

COURT RESUMES:

BONGANI PETRUS DLAMINI (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (continued)

Mr Dlamini we were dealing with what you were going to

talk to the children about. You mentioned resolutions or

demands made by the SPCC. You mentioned I think three of

them, but wasn't there also one of them that the children

should not pay, or that they should not bring their own

scho'ol books, that school books should be provided to them

by the Government? -- Yes. there was. (10)

And you were going to tell them about that as well? -— Yes, in fact all the resolutions.

All the resolutions taken by the SPCC you were going to tell them about? -- Yes.

May I refer you to page 1 471 of the respondents'

bundle of documents. Do you have it before you Mr Dlamini?

-- That is a report in the Sowetan of Monday 30 December

1985 and it deals with the decision taken by the SPCC that

children should return to school on the 28th and then cer­

tain demands were made at this meeting, or certain reso- (2 0) lutions were passed, is that correct? -- Correct.

Now according to the report, if you look at the third

column under the photograph'of Mr Vusi Khanyile, the second-

last paragraph of that column reads as follows; "Among the demands to the DET are the reinstatement of fired and sus­pended teachers". Were you aware of that one at the time, you must have been, you said you remembered them at the

#

time? -- Yes.

The next one is the "withdrawal of the South African Defence Force from the townships"? -- Yes. (30)

■ ■ .. Then/

2C39.01 - 1 053 - DLAMINI

Then "The unbanning of COSAS'-'? — Yes.

Recognition of Students' Representative Council (SRC's)"?— Yes.

The lifting of the state of emergency and.." sorry now

the next bit of mine has been punched out, "..and all.." something "..pupils".

C O URT: And all other pupils demands.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you My Lord, "..and all other pupils demands".

COURT: "..Which have contributed to the present crisis (10) in education".

MR HATTINGH: Thankyou My Lord. Do you remember that one

Mr Dlamini? — Yes it was written on the pamphlet.

Right, now you say that these demands were set out in

a pamphlet which was distributed by the SPCC is that cor­rect? -- Correct.

You've read that pamphlet? -- Yes I did.

And you were going to talk to the pupils at St Peter's

School about all these demands?-- About all the resolutions that were taken at meeting. (2 0 )

These that I've read out to you now? — Yes, these are some of them.

These are some of them,' do you mean there were even more than these you say? — Well I don't see the school, the books, the school fees here.

Yes, so these are some of them, you've mentioned others is that correct? — Correct.

And this is also what Mr Ntlokoa told you he was going to address the meeting about? -- Yes.

For what time was the meeting scheduled Mr Dlamini? (30)

— If/

3C39.02 - 1 054 - DLAMINI

-- If I am not mistaken it was scheduled for half past twelve or so, I can't remember exactly.

C OURT: About half past. .? — About half past twelve My Lord .

MR HATTINGH: And do you recall what time you arrived? --

I am not that certain of the time I arrived at the meeting but it was about to one, or half past one or so.

So you arrived late? — Yes, the meeting was alreadyo n .

Can Ijust ascertain from you Mr Dlamini, do you know (10) whether this meeting was attended by pupils of the school at St Peters only or were their other schools there as

well? — There were some other pupils from other schools

as well, because St Peters is a Primary and then there were4 ^

Secondary school kids at the meeting.

St Peters is a Primary school up to what age more or

less do the children go in that school? — Well up to Standard s i x .

At St Peters? -- Yes.

Now you say there were pupils, students, from the (20) Secondary schools as well? -- Yes.

A lot? -- Yes mostly it was the Secondary school.

Mostly pupils from Secondary school. Do you know

which school or was it more than one? — Well those I recog­nised. I saw them at the Junior High, I mean Kagiso Higher Secondary school and Masupatsela Secondary school.

They were senior pupils from more than one school pre­sent at this meeting as well? -- Yes from both our Secon­daries.

\From both your Secndaries? -- Yes. (30)

Are/

4C39.05 - 1 055 - DLAMINI

Are there only two Secondary schools in Kagiso? — Yes.

Can you give His Lordship some estimate of the number

of pupils who were present Mr Dlamini? — If I'm not mistaken there were about four hundred or so.

About four hundred? -- Yes.

This hall is not a very big hall is it? — Yes, it's not a very big place.

And when it's got benches in then the benches take up

a lot of space isn't that correct? -- Yes they do.

In fact we've been to that hall Mr Dlamini and my (10)

recollection is that it's a very small hall, small narrow

hall? -- Ja, but it's big enough if I am not mistaken to carry that number.

About four hundred pupils? — Yes, if I'm not mistaken,4 4

I'm not certain.

Now when you arrived at the hall you found some people outside the hall is that correct? — Yes it's so.

And in your evidence in chief I think you said these

people were standing at the windows? -- Yes.

And if I recall your evidence you said that there (20)

were about something like five or six at each window, is

that correct? -- How many, you are now just talking about

the windows on the western side of the building? -- Yes I'm talking of the windows on the western side of the building.

And do you know how many windows there are on that side of the building? -- Three.

Three, so on your version there must have been about fifteen to eighteen people approximately standing outside at these three windows, is that correct? — About thirty.

You now say about thirty? -- I mean if I , if I com- (30)

bine/

5C39.07 -1 056 - DLAMINI

bine them all they were about thirty.

About thirty pupils standing at the windows? -- Yes, outside.

Now on the photograph that was handed in as an EXHIBIT

Mr Dlamini I can see two doors on the western side, I was

under the impression that there was another one but I may

be wrong. Can you perhaps tell His Lordship how many doors

are there on the western side of this hall? -- There are thre-e.

There are indeed three? — Yes. (10)

If you look at the photograph EXHIBIT 1 . A . . ? — There was three doors.

The one door must be obscured by the tree on the fore­

ground of the photograph, the large one on the left hand side

is that righ't, there's a door behind that tree? -- No there's no door behind that tree.

COURT: Aren't there three, there are three doors on l.A?

MR HATTINGH: My Lord I can only see two because of the

tree on 1 .A I can see three windows but only two doors.

COURT: I wonder if we've got the same, isn't that a door(20)

on the extreme right hand side of the building? -- Yes it

is My Lord but I am including that one in the number that I can see My Lord.

Perhaps you should look at my photograph, it might not be the same as yours?

MR HATTINGH: Yes. Oh yes Your Lordship's is different from mine. Thankyou My Lord. May I request that the witness

#

be shown Your Lordship's copy of EXHIBIT l.A?COURT: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: You can see that there are in fact three (30)

doors/

6C39.09 - 1 057 - DLAMINI

doors on the western side of the hall, is that correct Mr

Dlamini? — Yes, that's correct.

And there are how many windows? -- Three.

Three windows, and when you arrived at the hall this

was round about the middle of the day? -- Y e s .

When you arrived at the hall this was round about the middle of the day? -- Yes.

And it was right in the middle of summer? -- Yes.

Was it a hot day? -- Not very hot.

You mentioned at some stage that an umbrella was (10)

produced for the injured children to be protected from the

sun? -- Yes I did mention that.

It was warm wasn't it? -- Yes it was warm enough.

Now I take it that with that little hall packed by about

four hundred pupils, they would probably have opened up the

doors and windows? -- Yes.

Were all three of those doors open when you arrived at

the hall? -- I didn't check them.

If there was a problem to get into the hall and to hear

what was being said inside, surely some of them would (20)

have stood at the doors, in fact we know that there were some

of them standing in the one door that you went to, not so?

-- Yes.Were there not people standing at the other two doors?

— Well to answer that clearly, when coming there I was not checking who was standing where and the likes and I only know exactly of what, of where I was. I mean on the other

doors I didn't even try to enter on the other doors because I entered at the stage door.

It's not a question of entering, it's a question of (30)observing/

7C39.10 - 1 058 - DLAMINI

observing whether there were people standing in front of the

door. You saw those that were standing in front of the

windows, didn't you see people standing in front of the

doors as well? — Well I don't want to lie about it, that

I would say I saw, I did not, I mean we passed there and

then saw people on the windows, whilst we were talking, I

mean we were not observing what's happening there.

You were coming from the north, am I correct Mr Dlamini? -- That's correct.

So you were going to walk past those two doors, past (10) at least two doors and two windows, three windows, to get

to the door where you were standing is that right? -- It's right.

And I take it that you were walking very close to the 4»

building as you were on your way to the door where you went

and stood? — You mean by close do you mean we were walking on the verandah?

Is there a verandah? -- Yes, there's a stoep which is a verandah.

Were you walking on that? — No, on the gravel path. (20)

Yes, but then you must have been about five yards away from the hall? -- Yes.

So if there were people standing there you walked past

them at a very close distance, not so? -- Yes, I'll say like going out here there may be people standing this side, but if you are not, you don't pay any interest to them you may not even see that there are people there.

*

The convent from which you were coming Mr Dlamini, that is situated to the north of the hall is that correct? -- It's correct. (30)

As/

8C39.ll - 1 059 - DLAMINI

As you were approaching the hall coming now from the

convent along that little footpath that you described, could

you when you were still far away from the hall, could you

see the windows on the eastern side of the hall? -- From the eastern side, do you mean on the back?

Yes, on the back side, I don't know the layout of the

convent in relation to the hall so I ’m not sure whether it

would have been possible for you to see the windows on the

eastern side of the hall as you were approaching the hall

from the convent? -- Yes, if I was at the gate of the (10)convent..

Yes? -- Coming this way, you could see the hall on the eastern side.

From the eastern side, yes this was my impression but

I wasn't sure. At that stage did you observe any children standing at the windows on the eastern side of the hall? -

-- No I wouldn't lie about it, I don't remember.

You don't remember. All right, you then arrived at

the southernmost door on the western side of the building

and you and Mr Ntlokoa went and stood at that door, is (20) that correct? -- That is correct.

Who was busy addressing the meeting when you arrived

there? -- Well I didn't see exactly who it was because

there were people on the stage and he was down, you know, in front of the stage.

There is a stage in this hall is that correct? -- Yes.But you say the speaker was not on the stage, he was

standing down on the floor? -- Yes, just next to the stage, as far as I heard the voice.

Was Laurence standing next to you, behind you, in (30)front/

9C39.ll - 1 060 - DLAMINI

front of you? — He was in front of me.

In front, were there people standing in front of him?

-- Yes, there were people standing in front of him.

You didn't recognise the voice of the speaker? -- No I could not place it whose voice it was.

What was he saying when you arrived there? -- What I

heard him saying, he was talking about discipline. He was

saying now that there will be nor corporal punishment it

doesn’t mean you should be loose at school and do what we

want, we must listen what the Principal is saying. If we (10)

confront a problem that the SRC's will be formed, you

should consult with your SRC's to confront a problem.

And was the formation of SRC's discussed? -- Well I

think it was part of the, it was discussed before we came

because now he was on the fact that he should ocnsult with

the SRC's if you confront a problem you shouldn't just do things the way you feel like doing.

And then the police arrived? — Yes, the Hippos.

For how long had you been standing at this door listen­

ing to the speaker before the police arrived Mr Dlamini? (20) -- For quite a short time.

Can you put an estimate to it, a minute, ten minutes?

-- No ten minutes is too long, about six to seven minutes.

Six to seven minutes, and then the police vehicles arrived as you explained? -- Yes.

Now you said two Hippos arrived, is that right? -- Yes, with a white van.

With a white, when you say van do you mean a "bakkie"?— Yes .

Open bakkie? -- No the police, the real police ones. (30)

Was/

10C39 .13 - 1 061 - DLAMINI

Was it enclosed at the back with wire mesh? — Yes.

Right the one hippo you say turned into Poswayo Street, is that correct? -- Yes.

And the other one stopped in front of the gate in

Ezikolweni Street? -- Not in front of the gate but on the

southern side of the gate.

On the southern side of the gate but on the side of the

road. Was it on the school side of the road or on the

opposite side of the road? -- On the school side.

Facing which way? -- The north. (10)

Where did the one that turned into Poswayo Street go

to? -- It stopped facing the east, just at the corner.

Right at the corner there? -- Yes, but a few paces

from the exact corner.

COURT: In'Poswayo Street? -- In Poswayo Street My Lord.

MR HATTINGH: Could you see it from where you were stan­

ding at the door? -- Yes I could see it.

Wasn't your vision obscured by that other little buil­

ding there? -- No I could see the hippo there which was

standing on Poswayo Street. (20)

And the third police vehicle where did that one stop?-- On the northern side of the gate.

Also close to the gate? -- Yes.

The gate was closed or was it open? -- It was closed.It's a fairly high gate isn't it? -- Yes.Now when the police arrived did you immediately decide

to go up and talk to them? — Yes, I would say it was imme-r

diately.Can you give us an estimate of the distance of the

door from where you were standing to the gate? On the (30)picture/

11C39.15 - 1 062 - DLAMINI

picture it looks quite far, but we were there and it's not

really a long distance is it? — I'd say it's from this wall here to the windows outside.

Twenty-five from this side, thirty there and about forty here.

COURT: I thought about thirty, it seems to be a compromise.

MR HATTINGH: As Your Lordship pleases. So the police, did

they immediately get out of their vehicles when they arrived? -- Yes.

And they went up to the gate, opened it and entered (10) the premises? -- Yes.

And you started walking towards them? -- Whilst they

were opening the gate we started walking towards them.

Now were they walking towards you or were they running

towards you?' -- They were not walking, they were not run­ning, they were sort of jogging I would say.

Jogging? -- Something of that nature.

But they appeared to be in somewhat of a hurry, not so? — Yes.

And how many of them came in through the gate at that(20)

stage that you saw? — There were four in front and the others at the back.

COURT: But how many had’come through the gate? -- Aboutseven My Lord.

MR HATTINGH: Four in front and three following behind? -— Yes, at that time when the gate was opened.

Yes, now where in relation to the gate did you meet up with them? — You see the office on the southern side, we were not..

That's the separate building there? — Yes. (30)Is/

12C39.18 - 1 063 - DLAMINI

Is that an office building? — Yes, it a glass office.

Yes I see that. -- We were about to be at, when we

met we were about to be at the next door, towards the west, there are two doors there.

I see, you were, are you saying that you were more or

less opposite the second door, the most western door of the

office building? -- We were not already opposite it but almost.

Almost? And when you met, when you were confronted

by them did they stop or did they go past you? -- They (10) didn't stop.

What did they do? — On threw something which said "phht" and then "bah"...

As he was still approaching, as ..? -- Yes.Jogging along? -- Yes.

So he came jogging along and then threw something over

your head? -- Yes over our, in fact over Laurence's head because he was in the centre.

Right, and then you heard a loud bang? — Yes.

And did they continue to run, or to jog, or did they (20) stop to talk to you? — No I would say they never stopped

because they passed us, I mean the bang itself was sort of effective on me.

Yes? -- And then they passed, we were facing this way, they passed this side.

So they sort of left you and Laurence standing there and they continued on their way towards the hall? — Yes.

All of them, all seven of them or all those that came in through the gate? -- Well I would say all those who came through the gate. (30)

Went/

13C39.20 - 1 064 - DLAMINI

Went past you? -- Yes.

And did you turn around to look at the hall to see what they were doing? -- Yes I turned round.

And what did you see Mr Dlamini? — Well there was

shootings and some other objects of the shootings went into the hall like tear gas cannisters and the likes.

Can we just get some clarity on that. How many of them were shooting at the school hall? -- I think all of them were shooting.

All if them, shooting tear gas cnanisters or shooting(lO) shotguns? -- There I cannot clarify, or either I cannot

differentiate between shotguns and the likes. It was guns they had.

But now you could see what they were doing, you could see who had shotguns, who was firing tear gas cannisters and

who were firing shotguns? -- I could see them shooting but that one is shooting what, that one is shooting what, I

don't know exactly because I can't differentiate between

shotgun and, I mean I don't know the kind of guns they were carrying. (2 0)

Not even from sight, I mean if you look at them you

can be able to distinguish? -- I mean I can say they had

this gun and that one and that one but I cannot call them this is is what, and this one is what.

Don't you people refer to the shotguns used by the po­lice as long guns? -- Ja, there were long guns.

The pump action long, punp action guns, you've seen them haven't you, those shotguns? -- This one with the wood?

Yes? -- Yes I know, I've seen them the cne with ..Did you see any of these policemen fire shots with (30)

“ ... that/

14C39.21 - 1 065 - DLAMINI

that type of gun? -- You see to answer that one clearly I

mean the way things were happening there you couldn't look

at a person and say he is shooting with this, that one is

shooting with this because it was happening very fast and

also the scare I had couldn't allow, I mean I wasn't at a distance looking at these people shooting.

But you must have been very close to them at that stage Mr Dlamini? -- Yes they were close.

And you must have been approximately, at most fifteen paces away from them, ten fifteen paces away from them, (1 0 )

borad daylight? -- Well as I have just explained, these

people came towards us, they passed us, they shot, I mean

whilst on the other side of us. I mean any man can be

scared that anything might also happen on him and then you

can't be looking at who is shooting what, who is shooting w h a t .

I see, these people, these policemen who went past you

did they remain on the western side of the hall, or did

some of them go round the hall? -- Well some of them, as we

were standing this side, some went that way, some went (2 0 ) that way. They scattered in fact.

You are indicating both ways now, did some of them go

to this south, and some of them go to the north? — Well

they scattered, I can't explain it further than there.What I'm trying to ascertain is did any of these police­

men go round the building towards the eastern side? Did they disappear from your view? -- Well they did, some did disappear from my view.

Those that disappeared from your view, which side did they go round, the northern side or the southern side? (30)

--Well/

15C39.22 - 1 066 - DLAMINI

— Well I take it both sides.

Both sides, and then those who remained on the western

side did they continue to fire shots at the hall? -- They

shot and, you know it wasn't a thing of five minutes, it was a thing of a couple of minutes or so.

Yes. — And then it kept quiet. Whilst these were

shooting those were, I mean these people were very fast, I mean on doing this thing.

And what was the reaction of the children? -- The

reaction of the children, they were screaming, trying to (1 0 ) go out on any exit.

Can we first deal with those children who were standing

outside the hall at the windows when the police arrived, what

did they do when the police arrived? -- Well we went out,

whilst going out with Lawrence towards the police these

were outside, I saw those running up towards the convent?

In a northerly direction? — In a northerly direction. Towards the convent? — That's correct.

Can I just get some clarity on the convent, is there

a fence separating the school buildings from the convent (2 0) buildings? -- Yes there is.

Is there a gate giving access from the school to the convent? -- Yes there are two.

COURT: I don't understand where the convent is, if you look <?n the, have you got a copy of the EXHIBIT 2 Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Yes I do Mv Lord.

COURT: Perhaps you can just inform me, there's Dastili Street.

MR HATTINGH: Dastili.Street, yes. (30)

COURT/

16C39.23 - 1 067 - DLAMINI

C O U R T •: And where is the convent, on the other side of the street?

MR HATTINGH: My Lord it's up north but I ’m not sure whether

i t ’s on the northern side or southern side of Dastili Street

and that's what I'm trying to ascertain from the witness.Could you perhaps assist us Mr Dlamini..

COURT: Perhaps if he could see EXHIBIT 2 it may assis.

MR HATTINGH: My Lord we were there but I can't clearly remember exactly what it looks liek.

COURT: Mr Dlamini that's just a plan that Mr Ntlokoa drew(10) -- Yes My Lord.

If there is something wrong with it you must tell us.— Yes .

Or something that you don't understand. -- No he has4 ,

drawn it wrongly My Lord.

Yes? — He has put Dastili Street too much to the school whereby there is a big gap from Dastili to..

To the school? -- To the school.

And where is the convent? — The convent, it's on the northern side of the said school we are talking about, (20) and then a bi t ..

But is it south of Dastili Street or on the other side of Dastili Street? — It's south of Dastili.

So it's on the same side of the street as the school?— Yes My Lord.

That's fine, I think I understand. -- The convent is somewhere here.

MR HATTINGH: My Lord my recollection is, and I think that's what the witness has now explained to me and My Learned Friend Mr Munnik has also tried to indicate to me on the (30)

sketch/

17C 3 9 .25 - 1 068 - DLAMINI

sketch that he has that the convent is to the north-east

of the hall that we are talking about, but on the southern

side of Dastili Street.

COURT: And on the northern side of what is shows as

classes?

MR HATTINGH; On the northern side of what is shown as, so

that if you approach the..

COURT: North-east?

MR H~ATTINGH; . . the hall from the convent you would be

able to see the eastern side of the hall. (1 0 )

COURT; Y e s .

MR HATTINGH; But what's still not clear to me Mr Dlamini

is that there is a fence between the convent and the school­

yard or premises? -- There is a fence.

Yes. -- Which rounds up the school.

Yes? -- And then there's a gate just on that fence which

rounds up the school on the north-eastern side of that

fence.

Yes? -- You go through it and you entered the convent

gate towards the east, facing the east. (20)

Do you first have to go onto the street? -- No.

So that you go from the schoolyard, you go into the

convent yard? -- No. From the schoolyard...

Mr Dlamini I am informed by my Learned Friend Mr Munnik that there is a creche situated to the north of the school?

-- Yes, correct.That has it's own fence around it? -- It has itfe own

*

fence around it.and the gate that you are talking about is in that

fence is that correct, so you first go into the creche (30)grounds/

18C39.28 - 1 069 - DLAMINI

grounds..? — No, you first go, which I will call a no-man's 1 and.

No-man's land? -- Yes.

Ja? — And then you turn into the convent, then the

fence from the creche runs through, I mean it's one fence,

I would say it's one fence with the convent and then the *

creche has its fence, then there's this no-man's land piece which you via through it to this school gate. There is a

gate on for the convent there is a gate for..

In any event Mr Dlamini, what is clear and what seems(lO) to be clear is that if you want to get to the convent from

the school hall you don't have to come out through the

gate and walk, shown on EXHIBIT l.E the photograph, that's

the gate where the police came in, you don't have to go

out through that and walk right round? — No, you don't have to.

You can proceed from the school hall in a north­

easterly direction to get to the convent, is that correct?— Yes.

Now you say that first of all the children who were (20) standing in front of the windows, you saw them running or

moving in a north-easterly direction, that is the direction of the convent? — Yes.

And did anybody shout out, call out that the police were there when the police first arrived? — Yes, there was pupils saying 'System, system, system".

Is that you way of referring to the police? — Yes,.So whenever the police arrive on the scene people

shout out "system, system"? -- Yes.

And this myst have been done by those pupils who (30)

19C39.29 - 1 070 - DLAMINI

were standing outside, they would have been the ones who

saw the police arrive and started shouting "system"? -- Yes.

Did they shout it loud enough for those inside the

hall to have been able to hear it? — Well I will say it

was loud enough, or either the word was passed on if it wasn't loud enough.

In any event it came to the attention of those inside the hall? -- Yes.

«

And was there then panic or some commotion inside the

hall when these people inside were informed that the police(lG) had arrived? — Yes there was a panic but somebody inside,

said "stay put, don't worry nothing will happen to you, just keep quiet".

Now where were you when you heard that being said? -- I was still at the door.

*

Was it the speaker who was busy talking now or was

it somebody else who said that? — Really I don't know who said that but somebody said so.

Did the people inside the hall respond to that request?

Did they then become calm again? -- Well I would say they (20)

did, you know because it was a thing of that time and then

they did because they listened, I could hear him, you"

know there was that noise, "hmm, hmm,hmm" and then they

kept quiet after the speaker said so, and then whilst we went out to meet the police.

Those pupils inside the hall would have been able to see the police approaching the hall through these windows

*

shown on the eastern side of the hall not so? -- Yes they could.

There are no curtains in front, in fact the people (30)■ who/

who were standing inside were standing at these windows

looking in and listening to the speaker? — Yes there are no curtains.

And you say these police came charging in and it looked like a German film to you? — Yes.

And yet the children inside remained calm after they

were told to do so? — I say the children remained calm

after the speaker had spoken, whilst we were still at the d o o r .

Yes? -- And then seeing them coming charging as in a (10) German film i t ’s when we were approaching them, then I

wouldn't know what happened after I left, whether they star­ted scattering or not, I was not facing them by then.

I see, and did you not hear or pay attention to what was going on*behind you? — I didn't pay any attention.

For all you know when these police came charging in through the gate the pupils inside could have started

scattering as you put it? -- Anything could have happened.

And then the stun grenade was thrown? -- Yes.

And I get the impression from your observations (20)that you made after the incident that it hit the wall of,

the western wall 6f the hall is that correct? — Correct.

Can you indicate to us, or can you describe to us whereabouts it hit the wall? — It's here.

COURT: I think you're showing on the, just to the southof the southern door is that right? -- Yes My Lord.

Or is that the middle, it looks like the southern of the three- doors? -- Yes My Lord it's underneat that window.

Thewindow? -- Yes My Lord.Underneath the centre of the three windows? -- (30)

20C39.39 - 1 071 - DLAMINI

21C39.32 - 1 072 - DLAMINI

That's correct My Lord.

MR HATTINGH: My Lord would that be the window in the

centre, and the most southern door?

C O URT: Yes, and the most northerly door.

MR HATTINGH Most northerly door.

COURT: Yes he was indicating on EXHIBIT l.B which is a different one.

MR HATTINGH: As Your Lordship pleases.

COURT: I think perhaps it might help to show you exactly

where. (1 0 )MR HATTINGH: I don't have a copy of EXHIBIT l.B I'm

afraid. You subsequently found a black mark against the wall is that correct? -- Yes, there was.

Was it directly below the window, in line with the win- dow or ..? -- It was underneath the window.

Underneath the window. Was it a large black mark? -

-- Yes, the black mark was this size.

COURT: You show about half a metre square.

MR HATTINGH: As Your Lordship pleases. Right, now when

tht happened I take it, and I think you said so, there must(2G)

have been pandemonium?. -- Yes, in the hall.

Now before that stun grenade was thrown, can you say whether any of the children inside the hall had emerged from the hall? — No I cannot say.

You cannot? -- Because I was not facing.

You were facing the gate? -- I was facing the gate.

Yes and then the police went past you and further shots*

were fired? — Yes.

You say some of them went, disappeared from your view?

— Yes. (30)Did/

22C39. 34 - 1 073 - DLAMINI

Did it appear to you as though they had gone to the eastern side of the building? — Yes.

Did you hear any shots being fired from that side of the building? -- Yes, shots were all over.

You heard shots being fired all over? -- Yes.

Have you got any rough idea as to the number of shots

that you heard? -- There were many, I can't even estimate how many there were.

Five, ten, twenty, more than that? I know it's diffi­

cult but I just want to get some estimate? -- Couldn't I (10) just not estimate because I might be wrong.

All right then I won't ask you to, or insist. Now did

you see anything fired or thrown in through one or more of

the windows of the hall? — Well the very shots were fired4 %

into the hall.

Did you see those shots being fired into the hall? --

Yes, one broke a window and what I saw it broke into the window and went inside the hall.

One what..? — What I saw, the one the window broke, something broke the window and fell inside. (20)

Which window was that Mr Dlamini, as you were facing the hall now, the western wall of the hall? -- The window next to the second door on top.

The second door from the left or the right? -- The second door from..

COURT: There are three doors so it must be the second door from both sides.

*

MR HATTINGH: That is correct.

COURT: But on the photograph it looks as though the window would be on the southern side of the centre door? -- Yes (30)

on/

23Cl 9.36 - 1 074 - DLAMINI

on the southern side My Lord.

MR HATTINGH: What was fired through that window? Do you

know? — I cannot say I know but it fell inside, it broke the window and fell inside.

Did it break the window low down or high up? -- Up there at the corner pane.

Right in the corner? — At the corner pane.

Left hand, right hand corner? — The left corner pane.

Left corner pane, something went in there and fell inside the hall? — Yes. (10)

COURT: It appears from the photograph that there are.fan­lights, or glass on top of the window, part of the window

opens and there will still be glass on top? -- Yes, well I call the whole thing the window.

So which par,t broke? — The top one My Lord.

MR HATTINGH: And were any grenades thrown into the hall that you saw? -- Grenades?

Tear gas grenades? -- Oh the one, the hand grenade?Yes. -- The hand tear gas grenade?

Yes? — Well I didn't see it being thrown inside, I (20) saw it when we picked it inside.

You picked it up inside the hall? — Correct.

Now you say that this whole incident took place within a very short space of time? — Yes.

And the children inside the hall, did all of them

manage to come out of the hall? — There were those, as I saw who were trying to come out from the doors this side.

The three doors on the western side? -- Yes, then the sjambok policeman at the door where we were standing, I mean now the stage door, he was sjambokking them there. (30)

Yes/

24C19.39 - 1 0 75 - DLAMINI

Yes? -- And then I couldn't see any others coming out from that angle, and then I took it probably they are using the windows that side as an exit.

Didn't some of them come out of the other two doors?— Kell they came out after.

No but whilst the police were busy with the action

there, you saw them sjambokking people back into the hall?

— He was sjambokking them back into the hall but I didn't

see going out from the other two, so it means I was the

only one now left with the police on the stoep and I would(lO) say on the western side of the hall.

Yes? -- I didn't see anybody with me there whilst Sister Bernard and Lawrence were going up.

Right, so Sister Bernard and Lawrence had left so

there was only yourself and the police who remained outside ■' -

the hall on the western side, is that what you are saying?-- Correct.

And the police were sjambokking children who wanted to

come out through the doors? — It's not the way it was, one policeman. (2 0 )

One policeman? ---Yes.

And he was at the southernmost door, the door on the most southern side? -- Correct.

And can you now remember or can you say whether at this stage the other two doors were open? — I can remember that this, the first door on the northern side was open.

That's the door right at the back of the hall? — ,Yes the first door when approaching from the northern side.

Yes, that one was open? -- Yes I still recall seeing it o p e n . _ (30)

Did/

25C 39.4 0 - 1 076 - DLAMINI

Did you see pupils come out of that door? -- No they

were not coming out of that door.

Did ycu see police preventing pupils from coming out

of that door? -- No the police was at the other door but

there were police this side, they might have been scared of

coming out whilst police are shooting there.

Now from what I understand from your evidence there

must have been police on the eastern side of the hall as

welI? -- Yes .

And they were shooting on that side of the hall as (10)

well? -- Yes.

But there were no doors that side of the hall? -- There

are no doors that side.

And yet the peoples broke the windows and tried to

get out of the windows, despite the fact that there were

police on that side busy shooting, that's what you're saying?

-- It's not what I say. I mean you have said it in a

form that I wouldn't agree.

Well put it in the way you want to put it please Mr

Dlamini. -- Right, the pupils were in the hall. (20)

Yes? -- The shooting starts from the western side of

the h a l l .Yes? -- Now they cannot run to the doors whilst they

have seen that the people who are shooting or doing what­ever on the western side, they would rather go to the

eastern side.Ja? — And these who are on the far west of the

*

building, of the hall itself, they wouldn't see the people

who are that side now, shooting, I mean their minds are telling them these people are shooting this side, they (30)

will/

Collection Number: AK2145 KRUGERSDORP RESIDENTS’ ORGANISATION AND 4 OTHERS v. THE MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER AND 2 OTHERS 1986 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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