buddhism needofmonasticism

7/29/2019 Buddhism NeedOfMonasticism

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Doing zazen at Zen Mountain Monastery

introduction by ajahn amaro

Why We NeedMonasticism

forumrobert thurman jan chozen bays bhikkhu bodhiayya tathaaloka

Many classical Buddhist texts, o both Northern and

Southern traditions, emphasize that monasticism

plays an essential role in the health and longevity

o the religion and its dispensation. However, in the West,

the vast majority o inuential dharma teachers over the last

orty years have been lay practitioners, or at least householder

lamas and Zen priests, such as Chgyam Trungpa Rinpoche,

Suzuki Roshi, Sharon Salzberg, and S.N. Goenka.Notable exceptions to this trend include Bhante Gunaratana

and Ajahn Sumedho, and the late Lama Thubten Yeshe, Mas-

ter Hsuan Hua, and Roshi Jiyu Kennett. These teachers and

their monastic communities have all had a proound inuence

in their own way, yet the numbers o those making a monastic

commitment remains small.

As ar as the Asian immigrant communities in the West are

concerned, there is no doubt that the orms their aith took in

the old country are to be preserved at all cost. However, or

those who were born and raised in the West, the encounter

with Buddhismand Buddhist monasticism in particular

raises questions such as: How important is it or the monastic

path to be an element in Western Buddhism? Will women

ever have an equal place in the monastic order? Since Bud-

dhist monasticism was shaped by the various cultures it was

exported to in Asia, what will it look like in the West?

In Buddhist mythology, the monastic plays the role o

the ourth o the Heavenly Messengers, the one that caused

Gotama to leave the palace, take up the lie o a monk, and

seek enlightenment. In order or messengers to do their job

successully they must be aithul both to the intent and

meaning o the sender, as well as to the language and mores

o the ones who are to receive the message; otherwise the

communication wont get through.

Today, the challenge or Western Buddhist monastics is

how to be a aithul messenger. That is, one who embodies

and respects the values o the source, yet who is also aithul

to the values o this time and place.

I the messenger avors the origin and doesnt pay heed tothe language o the recipients, the message can become unread-

able, with no more spiritual relevance than some o the anti-

quated religious orms already ound in the West. I they lean

too ar in the other direction, over-adapting to ft the dharma

du jour, the message can become so twisted in relation to its

original meaning that its roots become severed and the receiv-

ers are orphaned rom the ground o their tradition.

The Buddhist monastic order is the oldest human institu-

tion still unctioning under its original bylaws. Its an entity

ripe in years, but whether it sits in the endangered species cat-

egory or that o the hardy perennial remains to be seen. Where

survival and ourishing are concerned, a lot depends on the

skill and aith o the individual messenger, but, in addition,

much also depends on whether the society wishes to hear the

message, even i its being conveyed in an appropriate mode.

The ollowing discussion will explore many o these issues

and, in particular, how and why the monastic messenger might

still be useul in the world.

AjAhn AmAro is c-a Aaagii mas i rw Va, Caiia.

h was ai as a ikk Aa Ca i 1979.


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53 spring 2010 buddhadharma: the practitioners quarterly

Buddhadharma: Lets start with our overarching question.

How important is the monastic path or Western Buddhism?

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Buddhist monasticism owes its origins to the lie

story o the Buddha himsel. When the Buddha decided to set

out on his quest or enlightenment, he didnt remain a prince in

the palace and practice Vipassana a ew hours a day. Ater hebecame disillusioned with birth, old age, sickness, and death,

he glimpsed a wandering ascetic walking through the streets o

Kapilavastu. That became the model he emulated. He adopted

the liestyle o a monk, and ater his enlightenment, when he

wanted to make the path to enlightenment open to others, he

did so by establishing a monastic sangha, so that those who

were inspired by the ideal o nibbana could ollow the same

path the Buddha had ollowed.

Throughout Buddhist Asiain the southeast countries as

well as in the Himalayasits been extremely important to

preserve the monastic sangha. Its taken as a representation o

the third jewel, the visible maniestation o the Aryan sangha,

meaning the sangha o the noble ones. Now as Buddhism

comes to the West, there are many challenges that make the

existence o a monastic sangha difcult here, but it is a neces-sity i Buddhism is to ourish in America.

ayya TaThaaloka: When I was young and saw depictions o

Buddhist monastics on television, in movies, and in maga-

zines like the National Geographic, I elt a strong afnity

with them, a call within me to monastic lie. As long as there

are those who eel inspired to take on the monastic lie, its

important that we make that kind o lie available. Im so glad

its been a possibility or me, not just something historical I

could read about in a book.courtesy

of

sravastiabbey

Dallas Becker has her head shaved prior to taking anagarika vows at Sravasti Abbey near Newport, Washington.


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buddhadharma: the practitioners quarterly spring 2010 54

monastics as a vital part o society. And i American Buddhism

turns in such a direction, we could see a renaissance in Bud-

dhist monasticism in the next century or so.

Jan Jan Chozen Bays: Even among my own dharma brothers

and sisters, I encounter questions as to why would we need

ordained people and why would we need monasteries as a

place to house them or train them. In the Zen tradition, o

course, people who are ordained also have aspects o lay lie,

so its not so surprising that the question would arise.

The Buddha said that the ourold sangha o bhikkhus and

bhikkhunis (the ordained sangha), and upasakas and upasikas

(the lay sangha) is essential. Today, we need a wide-mouth

unnel that many types o people can ft into, one that makes

the buddhadharma accessible and is very creative about the

orms in which its presented. Weve done well with that, but

as a result we now need even more anchoring at the deep end

o the spectrum. The danger o the wide-mouth unnel is that

Buddhism will become too shallow, and thereore diluted and

commodifed. It will be mala Buddhism: i I wear a mala and

I like the Dalai Lama, Im a Buddhist.Buddhadharma: I the monastic element were to disappear

rom Western Buddhism, what would happen?

roBerT Thurman: In traditional Buddhist terms, Buddhism

itsel would disappear. A ew years ago when Time magazine

did a big thing on Buddhism coming to America, I said at

the time that I didnt think it had arrived yet, because theres

really no signifcant indigenous American Buddhist monasti-

cism. There are a ew traces here and there, but its not widely

accepted.

Also, on a deeper level there would be no asylum or certain

people. There would be no place or those young people whodont want to have a amily, produce, adopt a proession, or

join the military. There would be no place or people who really

robert thurmAn is j tsg Kapa

pss I-tia bis Sis a

Cia uivsi, a c a

psi ti hs u.S. h was ai

i 1964, cig fs Aica k i

tia bis aii. h c

is vws ciac as a. his as

k is Why the Dalai Lama Matters.

AyyA tAthAAloKA is a Aica ikki

a c n Aica bikki

Assciai. I 2005, s fs

ws asic sic i tavaa

aii i ws ui Sas. S is

c si ac a bi hs i

Sa Facisc ba Aa, a is saisig

a ws asic iag Caiias

Sa Cas. las oc, s sv as

pcp i fs tavaa ikki

iais i Asaia.

bhIKKhu bodhI is a si Aica bis

k a sca w was ai i 1973 i

Si laka. I 2002, ui

Sas a w sis a Cag y mas

i Ca, nw yk. h is psi

bis Picai Sci a cai

bis Ga ri gaiai.

jAn Chozen bAyS is c-a Ga Vw z

mas i Caskai, og. S civ

piss iai a aa asissi

a taia mai rsi. S is as

a piaicia, wi, , a a

Mindful Eating.

Earlier in my monastic lie, there werent that many mon-

asteries in North America. We had to go to Asia, which was

hard on ones health. Although it was wonderul in many

ways, it was also challenging to learn a new language and

culture. In the last decade, Ive ound that more people have

been calling or monasteries to be located here in the West, so

that we can live a monastic lie in our home cultures.

roBerT Thurman: Monasticism is critical or the uture o Bud-

dhism in America. There is a tendency in American Buddhism

not to think so, and to argue that monasticism was appropri-

ate in Asian society but not in America, where most practi-

tioners are bound to be lay practitioners. The idea that we

dont really need monasticism here is very wrong. The source

o it is an unwitting Protestant ethic that is unwilling to have

people pursuing a lie path that doesnt involve producing

things. But in act, one o our problems is that we overproduce

things and it would be good to have a lot o people who are

not producing things.

The monastic institution was a brilliant sociological inven-

tion o Shakyamuni Buddhasomething distinct rom orestascetics, who are completely out in the jungle so to speak, as

he had been, and distinct rom the city priests, who operate

at a temple in a town. The monastics were located a short

distance rom town, so they could come in to collect alms and

ood and maintain a connection with the populace. They were

also ar enough away to have some retreat rom the hustle and

bustle, yet not be utterly isolated.

What Ayya Tathaaloka was saying about it being easy

to be ordained is very important. Monasticism is a society-

transorming institution that is the only institutional antidote

in human history to militarism, the bad habit o most humansocieties. For Buddhism to really take hold in the West, society

has to be slowly changed in such a way that it will support


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want to devote themselves to lielong meditative, intellectual,

emotional, and psychological development, living at a very high

ethical level. Monasticism creates a privileged lie or someone

who wants to achieve the ideals o the Buddhist path.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Whether one takes a Theravada perspective or

a Mahayana perspective, the fnal goal o Buddhism involves

the complete abandoning o all the deflements that keep usin bondage to samsara. A monastic person might not have

advanced very ar in the actual inner renunciation, but the

outer liestyle o the monk is designed to acilitate that inner

renunciation. Through the proession o their vows, the

monastics adopt a lie o celibacy, a lie without possessing

material resources or money. Its a lie that is in principle dedi-

cated to the inner work o completely puriying the mind.

Even though laypeople living at home, practicing the

dhamma on their own, can practice very diligently, the

monastic orm provides the ideal conditions or the achieve-

ment o that inner state o complete renunciation. The

monastic liestyle represents in a maniest and visible orm

the achievement o the fnal goal, the achievement o that

state o complete inner renunciation. Without the presence o

a monastic sangha in the West, the fnal goal o the Buddhas

teachings will not be so visible. In that case, one can easily

mistake the goals to be simply about living mindully in the

here and now, experiencing presence o mind in the present

lie, without seeing that theres a transcendent goal toward

which the Buddhas teaching is pointing.

Jan Chozen Bays: What Bhikkhu Bodhi said about having a

visible, alternative way to live is important. Weve adopted

a career day or mystics, which was advocated by Matthew

Fox. When I frst heard about this idea, I liked it because somany young people have come to us saying, I wish I had

known about this alternative when I was younger, when I

was eighteen and desperate. Now we go out to career days

at colleges and set up a booth or the monastery.

roBerT Thurman: [laughs] Thats great. Is it alongside the mili-

tary recruitment?

Jan Chozen Bays: Yes. How did you know?

roBerT Thurman: [laughs] Well, thats the competition.

Jan Chozen Bays: They put us next to the CIA, and they were

actually very riendly. When we did it at the University o

Portland, many people came to the booth and said how gladthey were to have us there as an alternative. Even the military

people and the police said that.

Monasticism is an important alternative way o living.

Although monastics interact with the outside world, the dis-

tractions, pressures, and temptations are signifcantly reduced.

The Buddha was so practical. He was always looking at how

to maximize the amount o lie energy and time devoted to

the pursuit o liberation. When he looked at clothing, ood,

and shelter, he was always looking at it with an eye to how

we can devote the majority o our resources to the pursuit o

liberation. We dont have a television here. We get a newspaper

once a week. So theres not this constant obsession with whatshappening in the world. On a normal day we end up with our

hours devoted to meditation, and during retreats its eight to

ten hours, which you cant possibly do in lay lie.

ayya TaThaaloka: At any stage along the path, when its in

ones heart to do something more than practice or a ew

minutes or hours a day or go on some short-term retreats,

when one eels motivated to give body, mind, and heart to the

path 100 percent, on an extended basis, the container o the

monastic lie is there to make that possible.

The idea that we dont really need monasticism here is very wrong.The source o it is an unwitting Protestant ethic that is unwilling to have people

pursuing a lie path that doesnt involve producing things.Robert Thurman

brinkman

photography

Morning service at Great Vow Monastery in Clatskanie, Oregon.


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other monastic traditions, there are adaptations o that, but

we all have a rule and thats vital.

I once asked Ajahn Amaro what happens when you have

someone whos so clearly enlightened, like Ajahn Chah, and

then in the next generation theres nobody who seems to have

that power or that clarity. In response, he emphasized the

importance o the Vinaya. As long as people are subject to

living that lie, it becomes a feld o cultivation or enlightened

beings o various grades to arise. One o the unctions o the

monastery is to keep the dharma wheel turning, to honor and

preserve traditions that have been time-tested over thousands

o years. Through how we carry our body, speech, and mind,

were keeping the dharma wheel turning so that enlightenedhuman beings can keep appearing.

Buddhadharma: Is a charismatic fgure like Ajahn Chah needed

to lead a monastic tradition?

Bhikkhu Bodhi: It seems there are two models o monastic lie.

One model, which is very common in Asia, originates because

a monastery centers around a deeply experienced, realized, and

skillul teacher. He attracts students and ordains them, or he

attracts those who are already ordained. Then, he becomes the

de facto leader, the decider, the one who runs and controls the

whole monastery. As long as hes a wise, accomplished teacher,

the monastery will run smoothly andeverybody will conorm to his desires

and live together harmoniously. But

sometimes the person who winds up

in the position o power in the monas-

tery is obsessed with power and tries

to dominate and suppress others. In

that case, the monastery will oten

all apart.

roBerT Thurman: The Tibetan tra-

dition is steeped in the charismatic

approach. Their system o reincarnate

teachers is unique among Buddhistsocieties. We are all a reincarnation

o somebody, o course, but Tibetan

Buddhism makes an institution out

o it. When reincarnate lamas were

brought up as monks, which was

typical, that was usually benefcial.

Conorming to the Vinaya kept them

rom becoming too powerul. But in

the diusion o Tibetan Buddhism

Monastics need not be solitary hermits, orpaccekabud-

dhas,o in a mountain with no contact with anyone. Rather,

they may be visible in the world and have a connection with

everyone in it. The way o monastic lie laid out by the Buddha

in the Vinaya is not only an expression o his great wisdom

but o his great compassion or everyone. The monastic lie

is not only an excellent way o living or people in training.

It is equally so or highly accomplished practitioners. Its a

wonderul way or them to share themselves with the world.

Buddhadharma: One o my teachers said monasticism is impor-

tant because its clean and complete. Its like a canvas back-

drop that gives us a rame o reerence or complete devotion

to practice.Jan Chozen Bays: Ideally its clean, but not always.

Buddhadharma: Naturally, like any path, it has its own ups

and downs.

ayya TaThaaloka: It is also possible or monasticism to be done

improperly, such as when monastics, or even whole monaster-

ies, start living or reasons other than the practice or become

involved with other businesses. Although the orm o monastic

lie might still be there, something else is going on.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: We shouldnt cherish too many romantic illu-

sions about the monastic lie. There are many monasteries in

which monks misbehave and becomeinvolved with other things besides the

practice, study, and transmission o

the dhamma.

Jan Chozen Bays: Such as selling lucky

lottery numbers.

Buddhadharma: Some people have

come into monastic institutions and

been disillusioned with what they

ound there. What ensures that the

monastic container is maintained and

that what happens there really is the

complete renunciation youve beenspeaking about?

Jan Chozen Bays: First o all, disillu-

sionment is part o training. Everyone

comes into monastic training with illu-

sions about what will happen, what

theyll become, what the teachers are

like. To maintain the container, there

has to be a monastic rule. In Thera-

vada Buddhism, its the Vinaya. In

Monasticism is an important alternative way o living in which distractions,pressures, and temptations are signifcantly reduced. On a normal day we

end up with our hours devoted to meditation, and during retreats its eightto ten hours, which you cant possibly do in lay lie. Jan Chozen Bays

Shika Gento calls monastics to lunch at Mount Baldy ZenCenter, in Californias San Gabriel Mountains.


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around the world, the reincarnates are oten not monks,

which sometimes causes problems.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: The other model o monastic lie is based more

on partnership and community among the monks or nuns.

Someone is invested with the ofce o abbot, perhaps by elec-tion. It can be a rotating position. But the one who exer-

cises the authority o abbot doesnt have the capacity or the

authority to make decrees on their ownthey are subject to

control rom the monastic community. Within this structure,

the monks or nuns will be entitled to speak their own voice,

oer opinions, and even criticize the leader. This model seems

closer to what the Buddha himsel envisioned in the Vinaya,

but over the centuries the tendency has been or monasteries

to center around one strong charismatic leader.

roBerT Thurman: There is wisdom coming out o the Vinaya

even or dealing with the problem o leaders who are too

powerul. In Tibetan monasteries, or example, the bursar, theone who looks ater fnancial aairs, is never the charismatic

meditation teacher. In this country, Ive seen situations where

the leader has both the economic unction o control o the

monasterys livelihood (either through donations or business

interests) and also is giving initiations and ordaining. Combin-

ing those two is a recipe or trouble. They tend very much to

be separated in Asian traditions.

A similar lack o separation occurs in Zen in this country.

Theres a lot o conusion about what a monk is, and the

line between a livelihood-earning person and a monastic gets

blurred. I think that stems rom the Meiji Restorations deci-

sion to make monks get married, in order to break the power

o Japanese monastic institutions. For the majority o Zen

history, it was much more Vinaya-oriented, and monks werecelibate and renunciate. As a result o this nineteenth-century

innovation, however, you have people who are called Zen

monks who are married with two children and a job. Thats

something the Zen tradition has to look at.

Jan Chozen Bays: That is true, though we do honor the dis-

tinction. We reer to ourselves as receiving monastic training

because the container is a monastic container, but we call

ourselves priests, not monks.

roBerT Thurman: Thats good. Its important to be clear about

the dierences.

Buddhadharma: What about the relationship o the monastic

sangha to the large community o practicing lay Buddhists?At times it seems like there is little relationship o one to the

other.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: In the American Theravada community, there

seem to be two tracks. One track is attracted to monastic

orms. Those on that track dont necessarily become monas-

tics themselves, but theyre attracted to monks and nuns as

visibly representing Buddhism. Theyre eager to have monks

and nuns come and settle in the U.S., and they want to support

them. Theyre very much drawn towards traditional Buddhist

Monastic residents doing laundry at Gampo Abbey in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

aaron

klokeid


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Bhikkhu Bodhi: Not really. O course theres a tendency or the

Asian Buddhist population in the U.S. to center around mon-

asteries, but there is also a signifcant portion o the American

community drawn to the monastic way o lie.

roBerT Thurman: Is that so?

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Yes.

ayya TaThaaloka: Yes, there is defnitely interest in monasti-

cism among American Buddhists. Here in northern Caliornia

its growing tremendously. Many lay Buddhists have called or

there to be a monastic presence. Beore I moved to the Bay

Area, when I would visit, people would ask, Why do youhave to leave? Why cant we have a monastery or women

here?

When the number o people reached critical mass, we went

ahead with establishing a monastery here. Some o the lay-

people also wanted to be able to train and ordain here. At that

time, there was a mens monastery, Abhayagiri, in Caliornia.

But women also wanted to train in their home country. They

didnt want to have to go abroad and deal with the huge costs,

the visa difculties, and the health challenges.

teachings. They want to learn the dhamma broadly, as well as

in a way that applies to their own lie.

The other track is what is now called the Vipassana com-

munity. They were originally attracted not so much to Bud-

dhism itsel but to the practice o meditation, almost as a

sel-suicient discipline. They ollow teachers who teach

Vipassana meditation. In their discourses they draw upon

sayings rom the Buddha, but the teachers themselves are

not intent on establishing a Buddhist presence in the U.S. but

rather are teaching a particular practice o meditation or

the immediately visible benefts that come rom that prac-tice. Their style o teaching is usually not grounded in the

doctrinal ramework o Buddhism, including the teaching o

kamma, rebirth, the ull exposition o the our noble truths,

the ull exposition o dependent origination. Rather, it draws

selectively rom teachings o the Buddha that contribute to the

practice o Vipassana meditation.

roBerT Thurman: Those who support monastics are generally

Asian American and those who practice Vipassana are gener-

ally Euro-American, no?

A Shuso Hossen ceremony at Zen Mountain Monastery in Mt. Tremper, New York.


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When I was younger, I encountered monastics who would

put down lay practitioners as i the laity were beneath them.

When I returned to the U.S. and began to encounter Western

Vipassana communities, I encountered people who put down

monasticism as i it were a dinosaur. I do think that is begin-

ning to change. Our model must be, as Rev. Chozen said, the

Buddhas simple notion o the ourold sangha. I think o it

as a good vehicle with our wheels. I each is steady and the

whole vehicle is in balance, we can all move orward eec-

tively, mutually supporting and upliting each other.

Buddhadharma: Traditional monasteries were built and main-

tained through both citizen patronage and royal patronage.Can such institutions be developed and maintained on a large

scale in the West?

Jan Chozen Bays: One big dierence is that in the West we have

separation o church and state. Very ew here would want

any one religion unded by the government. So, we will not

enjoy royal patronage here. This provides the same incentive

that the Buddha established or his monastics to help them

stay close to the lay population. We have to educate Western-

ers about the dierence between the more isolated orm o

monasticism amiliar rom the Catholic tradition and the more

permeable approach o Buddhist monasticism.roBerT Thurman: Yes, even using the term monastery to

describe Buddhist viharas creates some conusion. Tradition-

ally, the Buddhist monastic sangha was not so much into being

solitarythey interacted strongly with the lay community.

The Buddhas order was that you must beg or your ood, so

you have to interact with the lay com-

munity every day to get your lunch.

Its not about hiding rom society.

Jan Chozen Bays: Also, one o the

important roles o monasteries, or

whatever we choose to call them, is to

be available to anyone in need, to be aplace where people can put away their

concerns or the world. Almost every

person has within them a monastic

voice, a calling to step aside rom lie as

a personality and step into the uncon-

ditioned. Then the larger community

can begin to think o the monastery as

an extension o itsel, and may even

begin to call it our monastery, as has

started to happen around here. Grassroots support is the oun-

dation o Buddhist practice in America. The donations may be

mostly small donations, but they come rom wide sources.

Buddhadharma: What about support or large institutions,

with a hundred or more monastics?

Bhikkhu Bodhi: It would be difcult to support monasteries o

that size here, but that is not necessarily the model we need to

ollow. In Sri Lanka large monasteries are not very common,

except or monastic training centers. The typical vihara in one

o the countless towns and villages will usually have two or

three senior resident monks, a ew novices, and thats it. The

temples dont get much support rom the government. Theyresupported by the people.

I would say it would probably be healthier to have a larger

number o smaller monasteries spread out over dierent parts

o the U.S. than a ew large institutions.

ayya TaThaaloka: Even in Thailand, the majority o monasteries

are smaller. There are larger ones that have royal support and

also ones that develop around a great teacher, which is a very

organic development. There are people who make oerings o a

little bit o ood each day or a small amount o money, but there

are also wealthy people seeking out teachings, and they oer

greater support. The support o wealthy patrons is something Ican very much see happening in the United States and is already

happening here to a degree. In the U.S. economy a ew people

have an enormous amount o wealth, and i those people beneft

rom the dhamma they may make the kind o donations that

could lead to much larger endowments.

roBerT Thurman: Many people may

beneit rom meditation, rom the

wide unnel that Chozen Bays talked

about, and they will support that

development, but perhaps a ew will

see the beneft o supporting the devel-

opment o Buddhism itsel, and willtruly be generous and support people

who want to devote themselves ull

time to the teachings.

Buddhadharma: As Buddhism has

moved into dierent parts o the world

it has always changed in some way.

Can we develop alternative orms o

monasticism other than lielong ordi-

nation or people in the West?

Todays monastics are going to have to be much more aware owhat is happening in the world. As the gap between rich and poor widens,

monastics are going to have to present a Buddhist perspective on issuessuch as war, poverty, and ecological destruction. Bhikkhu Bodhi

Ayya Tathaaloka (center) and a fellow monastic on almsrounds near Bodhi House in the Bay Area.

unknown


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excited about someone taking ordination,

coming to the ceremony, supporting the

ordained person, only to have the person

quickly step back out again.

Buddhadharma: How do you see monasti-

cism evolving as it develops urther in the

West?

Jan Chozen Bays: The evolution were look-

ing or is already happening. Peter Gregory

says the marks o Buddhist practice in the

West are, frst, the increased role o women;second, the act that the canon is accessible

and can be studied by everyone; and third,

that laypeople are not content to just be

fnancial supporters but also want to be taken seriously as

practitioners, including spending some time perhaps in the

monastery practicing ull time. We also need to increase the

interaction o monastics with communities. For example, we

need to have people in ordained clothing going into schools

occasionally and interacting with children.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: A signifcant aspect about Buddhism in the

West is not simply the ordination and greater participation owomen, but that the eminine presence is going to transorm

the expression, understanding, and presentation o Buddhism

signifcantly. It strikes me that the classical presentation o

Buddhism has a very masculine avor. One struggles against

the deflements, to deeat them, cut them o. As the eminine

aspect becomes more prominent, its going to soten the pre-

sentation, but not in a compromising way. It will bring to

maniestation certain elements already embedded within the

Buddhist tradition that have not yet come to ull expression.

roBerT Thurman: Shakyamuni was a little hesitant about

emale monastics, not because o anything against women.

It was because, as a sociologist, he could see the resistanceo the chauvinist Brahmins. The release o women into this

kind o liestyle would be resented. Today we have a dierent

economy and a dierent type o education, and the bhikkhu-

nis should be as developed and as honored as possible. There

will likely be more o them than the bhikkhus, which will

probably be a very good thing.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Theres also going to be much greater interac-

tion between monasticism and the world, such that monastics

will take on the responsibility o unctioning as what I would

Bhikkhu Bodhi: In Sri Lanka, where I lived

as a monk, it hasnt been customary to

give temporary ordination. In this respect,

Sri Lanka is dierent rom other Thera-

vada countries like Thailand and Burma,

where temporary ordination is an integral

part o the Buddhist culture. I dont have

direct experience with it, but it seems that

it could be an eective way to help people

who are not intending to live as monastics

their whole lie to acquire some experi-ence o what it means to actually live as a

monk, to get frsthand experience o living

as a member o the sangha. Theyll come to

appreciate the hardships as well as the benefts and pleasures o

monastic lie, and it could tie them more closely to the monastic

sangha. It might also make them willing to throw their support

behind those who want to live as monastics ull time.

ayya TaThaaloka: I have many riends who have been monas-

tics or a period o time, whether because they took temporary

ordination or because they disrobed. Some have gone on to

become excellent Buddhist teachers. I appreciate what theysay about the useulness o having ordained. However, Im

not an advocate o institutionalized temporary ordination. I

acknowledge the benefcial aspect o it, but I also recognize

that there is a detrimental aspect. The temporariness o it can

reduce the meaning and sincerity behind undertaking monas-

tic ordinationthe intention to dedicate onesel ully to the

fnal goal o enlightenment. Without complete renunciation,

ordination can become trivialized.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: A viable alternative, then, would be to have

laypeople live at a monastery or an extended period o time,

which we call being an anagarika.

ayya TaThaaloka: Yes, the Buddha recommended that peopletake periods o time like that, which we now call temporary

monastic retreat.

Jan Chozen Bays: I agree completely. Ordaining and then dis-

robing can become like collecting another merit badge. Our

current scheme is that people have to live here or at least a

year beore they can even request ordination, and then theyre

a postulate or at least a year. Its a gradual entry into the lie,

so that they understand what theyre getting into. Theres noth-

ing more discouraging or our lay sangha than getting very

Im not an advocate o institutionalized temporary ordination.The temporariness o it can reduce the meaning and sincerity behind undertaking

monastic ordinationthe intention to dedicate onesel ully to the fnalgoal o enlightenment. Ayya Tathaaloka

Meal prep at Zen Mountain Monastery


10/1061 spring 2010 buddhadharma: the practitioners quarterly

call a Buddhist conscience or the world. In traditional monas-

ticism, Buddhist monastics are supposed to remain detached

rom the world, even though theyre interacting with laypeopleto receive their alms and to preach the dhamma. But todays

monastics are going to have to be much more aware o what

is happening in the world. As the gap between rich and poor

widens, monastics are going to have to present a Buddhist per-

spective on issues such as war, poverty, and ecological destruc-

tion, reminding us that the primary values in human lie should

be compassion, loving-kindness, justice, and equity.

Monastics will also provide greater opportunities to lay-

people to live at the monasteries, to study the dhamma exten-

sively and in depth. In traditional Buddhist

culture, specialized learning in the dhamma

is considered the preserve o the monasticcommunity, and the monks preach to lay-

people on a very simple and practical level.

But now, because laypeople who embrace

Buddhism have higher levels o education,

they want to understand dhamma more

extensively and deeply. Part o the responsi-

bility o the monastic community will be to

transmit high and deep dhamma, not only

to other monastics but also to laypeople

who have that interest. It will also be important or Buddhist

monastics to relate with monastics and spiritual practitioners

rom other religious traditions.Finally, in the United States we have a melding o all o the

main Buddhist traditions, which you dont fnd in Asia, so

theres going to be much more interaction between monastics

o these dierent traditions. Every year we have a monastic

gathering where monks and nuns rom all traditions who have

taken ull ordination come together to discuss areas o shared

interest and concern.

ayya TaThaaloka: Its hard or me to say how I would see

monasticism evolve in the uture, because Im right in the midst

o it. When people come here, they sense

something. I see it in their eyes and in their

demeanor. I hear it in their speech, and I seeit expressed in their actions. I would have

to say i you want to know what monasti-

cism looks like in the West, then come and

spend time with us. Do a temporary monas-

tic retreat. See what it looks like. We are

living the process o evolution.

Monks from Abhayagiri Monastery going for alms in Ukiah, California.

Replacing the altar cloths at Great Vow Zen Monastery.(top)tou

design,

sakrapee

tou

meechukant,

(b

ottom)great

vow

zen

monastery

buddhism needofmonasticism

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