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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
BEFORE THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION
OF THE
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE AMY YIP-KIKUGAWA, presiding
Application of Pacific Gas andElectric Company for Approval ofModifications to its SmartMeter™Program and Increased RevenueRequirements to Recover the Costs ofthe Modifications. (U39M)
And Related Matters.
))))))))))
PUBLICPARTICIPATIONHEARING
Application11-03-014;A.11-03-015;A.11-07-020
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPTBakersfield, California
December 13, 2012Pages 685 - 709
Volume - 6
Reported by: Alejandrina E. Shori, CSR No. 8856
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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I N D E X
* * * * *
STATEMENTS
MR. CERDA 696
MR. FREITAS 700
MS. BRETZ 702
MR. FREITAS 704
MS. BASSEY 705
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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BAKERSFIELD, CALIFORNIA
13 DECEMBER, 2012 - 6:00 P.M.
* * * * *
ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE YIP-KIKUGAWA:
We'll be on the record. The Commission will
come to order.
This is the time and place set for
the Commission for a public participation
hearing in Applications 11-03-014, 11-03-015,
and 11-07-020. These applications address
cost and cost allocation issues related to
providing an option for gas and electric
utility residential customers who do not wish
to have the wireless meters installed in
their location.
Good evening. I'm Administrative
Law Judge Amy Yip-Kikugawa. And seated to my
left is Carol Brown who is chief of staff to
Commission president Michael Peevey.
And Ms. Brown, would you like to
say a few words?
MS. BROWN: Yes. On behalf of
President Peevey, he really welcomes all of
you, taking time out of your busy evenings
especially during the holiday season, to come
and talk to us because it's very important
that we get out and leave San Francisco
occasionally and come out and visit where all
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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of the rest of California lives and to hear
from you. So on behalf of President Peevey,
thank you for coming. And I'm here to listen
and report back to him, along with the record
the court reporter will be creating, and let
him know exactly what you have to say this
evening. Thank you.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay, thank you
Ms. Brown.
Okay, as I said, this is a public
participation hearing. And that really is
what we're here to do, is to hear directly
from the public and have them speak to the
Commission. Everyone who does wish to speak
this evening will have the opportunity to do
so. And if you have not yet provided your
name to the Public Advisor's Office, please
go to the back and do so now. I will be
calling you up one by one.
I do have a couple of housekeeping
matters before we have begin. That is, as
Ms. Brown mentioned, we do have a court
reporter here who will be preparing
a transcript. Therefore I do ask that when
I do call your name up, that you speak into
the microphone and speak clearly and slowly
so that she can take down every word. And I
am going to be asking also the audience to
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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please not interrupt the speakers because
the reporter can't get a clear and accurate
record if that's the case.
We are going to be about two hours
for these hearings and each person will have
about three minutes to speak. And about
halfway through, we are going to take a short
break for the reporter maybe about five to
ten minutes.
And again, we do want to hear from
the public your statements. This isn't
a question and answer session so I'm not
going to be doing a lot of speaking once we
start hearing from all of you.
But what I'd like to do is first
give a real short overview of the proceeding
and how the procedural aspects of
the decision will be made here.
Earlier this year, the Commission
has voted out a series of decisions that had
directed the three investor-owned
utilities -- Pacific Gas and Electric,
San Diego Gas & Electric Company, and
Southern California Edison Company -- to
modify their advance metering infrastructure
program to include an option for residential
customers to opt out of having a wireless
SmartMeter at their location. All three of
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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the orders adopted AMI fees and opened
a second phase of the proceeding to consider
the cost that should be recovered by
the utilities as well as how those costs
would be recouped from customers. And that's
where we are at this point.
Southern California Gas Company has
not had an order yet directing them to modify
their advance metering infrastructure program
to also include an opt-out option. However,
they do have an application that's pending at
this point. And even though that application
hasn't been acted on, SoCalGas is
participating in the proceeding and looking
at adopting a permanent piece of this point
as well.
All three utilities have already
served testimony on what their cost proposals
are, and we did hold evidentiary hearings on
the testimony. Witnesses were called up and
they were cross-examined by not only the
Commission's Division of Ratepayer Advocates
but also by numerous consumer groups. Those
hearings have been completed, but we have as
part of the record all of their testimony and
the exhibits.
Next what's going to be coming in
are briefs filed by the utilities and the
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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intervenors, the consumer groups. At the
same time, we're looking at the complete
record. So that's going to include input
from ratepayers and customers as well.
Letters have been coming in. They
do get circulated among the Commissioners'
offices and also to me. We looked at
the lot -- we looked at them. We received
numerous e-mails. They're putting those into
the record as well.
In addition to coming here to
speak, I have already received a large number
of letters from people who weren't able to
come to the public participation meetings but
did want to express their opinions of
the opt-out fees that are under
consideration. So please understand that you
are being heard. We do read your letters and
we do take them into consideration as we are
working toward a decision.
In terms of a proposed decision,
I will, based on all the evidence that is
presented in this proceeding, prepare
a proposed decision that I will be putting
forward for the Commission to vote on. The
commissioners may vote on that or they may
come out with a different outcome, and one of
them may have prepared what's called an
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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alternate decision. Once it is voted out,
whatever decision is voted out by
the Commission, that is the Commission's
decision. And at this point, we probably
won't have a final decision out for
consideration until later in the spring.
Are there any questions?
(No response)
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Yes, sir?
MR. FREITAS: Are you the final
authority and it's just your opinion that you
submit? Is it just an opinion or a brief
that you do?
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: I will be writing
a proposed decision for the commissioners to
consider and the commissioners, that will
have a certain outcome. If the commissioners
agree with my outcome, they will vote on that
and that will be the decision of
the Commission and that outcome will be
adopted.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What would you
consider your weight, what's the weight of
that outcome? What is the weight, what is
the weight? How do you weigh the value of
what you do compared to what they can do to
accept it or reject it? How valuable is your
input?
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: I would like to say
my input is very valuable. Of all the
decisions I've written, very few have been
voted out as alternates.
MR. FREITAS: Okay.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: I try to come up
with a reasoned decision based on
the evidence. And I do meet with the
commissioners and explain why I came out with
the output I did. So in some respect, they
know I know the record and it is a lot of
what does the record say and how have
I interpreted the record and weighed it.
Anything else?
(No response)
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay. Now, I'd just
like to make a couple of quick introductions
before we proceed.
I have sitting right in front of me
here Varouj Jinbachian who is from our Public
Advisor's Office, and Mr. Jinbachian is going
to just briefly explain the role of
the Public Advisor's Office.
MR. JINBACHIAN: Thank you, your Honor.
Good evening and welcome. My name
is Varouj Jinbachian and I'm with the Public
Advisor's Office of the Public Utilities
Commission.
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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First, I would like to say if you
have a mobile device, if you could please put
it on silent mode. That way you do not
disturb others.
The Public Advisor's Office assists
the public in participating in PUC
proceedings. We facilitate public
proceedings such as this. Our staff is
outside to sign up speakers. And if you'd
like to make a comment here tonight, please
sign up with them if you haven't done so yet.
You can also send in written comments. We
have an agenda outside and on the back of the
agenda there's our mailing address and e-mail
address. And if you send us written
comments, we will route those to the judge
and also the commissioners' offices so they
will see your comments.
We also have a free subscription
service where you could receive updates on
this proceeding or any other proceeding
you're interested in. Again, on the agenda,
on the back of it, there's a link for
the subscription service. And if you have
any questions on how to sign up, please ask
one of our staff outside or you could talk to
me afterwards.
Actually, I should point out that
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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the judge said there will be a time limit for
the speaks. I wanted to point out that
there's a timer right up there so it will
count down how much time you have when you're
speaking.
Thank you very much for coming.
MR. FREITAS: One quick question. How
do you become an intervenor?
MR. JINBACHIAN: Let's talk about it
separately outside.
MR. FREITAS: Okay.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay. The other
thing I'd like to do is just introduce a few
other people. Over on this side, I have
Mr. Mendoza.
MR. MENDOZA: (Indicating.)
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: And Ms. Barris.
MS. BARRIS: (Indicating.)
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: They are from
the Gas Company.
And then over here we have
Mr. Bayless who is from PG&E.
MR. BAYLESS: (Indicating.)
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: They are directly
involved with the advanced metering
infrastructure program. So if you have any
questions, you may speak with them and they
will attempt to address all of them. If they
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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can't, they can always refer to the
appropriate person at PG&E as necessary.
We also have, as you came into this
meeting room, the customer service
representatives from both the Gas Company and
PG&E. And if you have any questions about
your bill, if you'd like sign up for
the opt-out program or anything else, you can
speak with them also after the meeting.
Okay, so now I'd like to proceed
with our public comment period, and first
person is Lionel Cerda. If you can please
come up Mr. Cerda. And that will be followed
by Keith Freitas.
STATEMENT OF MR. CERDA
MR. CERDA: My name is Lionel Cerda.
And how should I address you, "your
Honor"?
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: That's fine.
MR. CERDA: Okay. Well, my comment is
why bother, why I came, but I just want my
voice to be heard.
Why did they even begin with
the SmartMeter when people have to pay an
extra additional charge?
And what if -- my self-research was
that it was an ex-CEO that was part of PG&E
that just wanted to invest and make money.
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And it seemed like it's going to be a double
effort on the public just to opt-out.
Because he was an ex-CEO, he had connections
to PG&E, if I'm right on that.
So, you know, my question is why
bother, because why did they even begin to do
that?
You know, with all this high-tech
stuff, the more the public has to -- they
encounter a lot of problems with these
SmartMeters. And me myself, I'm going to
keep it because, you know, it's just to me
a waste of time. And you know, these
higher -- these higher-ups profit off
the public. That's what I -- that's the way
I see it. They're profiting off the public,
the small person.
And like I said, my comment was why
bother. I was -- why bother? Why bother?
I bothered to come up here just to air my
grievance against the Pub- -- why did they
even begin to do that?
So as I see my time, I'm just
trying to be real brief as possible.
And you know with the CPUC,
the California Public Utilities Commission,
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
they've been in bed with PG&E for years. And
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that's the way I see it, you know. And
that's just my frustration and my anger that
I want to air out because it's the people
that are paying the rates. It's going to be
affecting them.
So I'd just like to, I'd like to
see some kind of, I would say -- trying to
grasp for the right words -- some positive
outcome for the public.
And before I finish my addressing,
this is a public hearing to address our
comments but I just don't want to seem like
I'm angry or frustrated but, you know, it
just goes back to people are just -- they're
already in and they want to get more deep
into it.
It's not who you know -- what's
that -- there's some words I'm trying to
grasp. I guess it's part of my dementia.
There's some short-term memory loss.
I'm just trying to voice my opinion
and my comments to that effect, you know.
It affects me, it affects
the public, it affects the state of
California and nationwide. I don't know if
it's a nationwide thing. There's so many
things that I read, so many materials. I've
come to a point where I don't know who to
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believe, you know. It's what you make of it.
It's what I would say when it gets out in the
media whether it's print, electronic,
Internet, just don't know who to believe
because they throw so much, their take, their
take on the situation. But I don't know.
The self-research I've done like in
the past, the first meeting that I attended,
there was a CEO, if my memory serves me
right, Peter Darbee. That was when he got
$12.9 million for one year. Was this one
year? Like I said in the past, why stop
there? Just give him triple that.
But that just goes to the effect of
the SmartMeters, why the public has to
opt-out and pay when you guys started --
I mean, not you guys, but the people that
I see that you guys are in bed with. You
guys have a strange political bedfellows that
you guys lie with. And there's where my,
once again, my frustration, my anger, where
I have to voice --
Did I pass my three minutes?
So I'm just going to finish right
there because it's the same thing that I'm
going to be saying over and over. So I just
want to thank you for your time and patience
and hearing my, I guess, one still voice.
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Thank you very much.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you very much.
Mr. Freitas.
STATEMENT OF MR. FREITAS
MR. FREITAS: Okay, your Honor, first
of all, I wanted to object to
the three-minute limitation. I find that
very offensive.
Second of all, if I was to title
this little comment I'm going to make I would
call it the Consumer Liabilities Act and the
Consumer Liberties Act.
Utilities assume responsibility for
what's best for the consumer whether
their motives are profit-based. The utility
seeks utilitarian-type control over its own
markets. This creates an environment for
the lack of proper protective checks and
balances that would work under normal
capitalistic standards similar to
self-policing.
If the public puts its trust in its
methodology and corporate madness, it risks
losing power over its own destiny.
Self-absorbing, more profit-driven utilities
will be left unchecked and would hold control
over that golden goose that lays the golden
egg.
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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Plunging one's -- this is what PG&E
did. Plunging one's own assets headlong and
head forward into a campaign to replace
equipment in a totalitarian style in a manner
that includes the immediate destruction of
existing equipment is in fact evidence of
a dysfunctional and out-of-control
management.
I'd like to make some direct
points. And I have to preface this with the
fact that I'm preparing a complaint that's
going to be filed and PG&E and its executives
will be named in the complaint, members of
the consumer protection agency, and CPUC. So
I have to relent back on some facts to
disclose to protect that complaint.
PG&E has self-inflicted their own
damages through its own negligence by
destroying old meters, taking that upon
themselves. We shouldn't have to pay for
that. PG&E spent $53 million in a reverse
spin campaign, public campaign and an
advertising campaign to try to convince
people that they aren't the bad guy, they
didn't do this in the wrong way, and
everything's okay, they are doing this for
our best interest. Well, that number should
be taken out of the cost. Why would you want
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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to charge the public for two -- on the basis
of two things that they did were
self-inflicting caused by their own
negligence.
They negotiate their way out of
negligent cause of disasters constantly.
They get out of paying for fires. They
damaged the public lands, private land. They
don't have to pay for the cost of expenses of
those damages. And their acts are negligent.
And they also, they also -- I cannot disclose
certain facts, but PG&E and their intentional
abuse of General Order 95 needs to be
examined extremely deep.
Thank you.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you.
Maryanne Bretz.
STATEMENT OF MS. BRETZ
MS. BRETZ: My name is Maryanne Bretz.
I drove 100 miles to come here tonight to
talk to you because this is that important to
me. You don't have very many people here.
But in my talking to people about this
SmartMeter installation in our area -- that's
in Visalia -- people are -- people hate these
things. They don't want them because of lots
of reasons.
And it seems to me that this
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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increase in the opt-out fees is simply to
make it to that less people can afford to
opt-out.
So I believe that this meeting was
called on being on the 13th of December, I'm
in retail, there's no way that I should be
here. I also have a mail order house.
There's also no way that I should be here.
So this is -- and other people that feel
the same way I do, have not come because of
the day that you chose to have this meeting.
And what the CPUC will say, well,
nobody came and nobody cared. Well, it's
probably because of the date that you chose.
So in my business and with my
contacts in talking to people, what we would
like to see happen is that customers should
be allowed to opt-out of SmartMeters before
and after deployment. Customers should not
be charged any set-up fee or monthly charges
for SmartMeter refusal. There should be no
differentiation for businesses versus person
household customers on SmartMeter policies.
Why does a business not have the opportunity
to opt out?
We would ask that you prohibit SCE
and other utility providers from shutting off
utility service to customers who refuse
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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SmartMeter installations, and allow customers
to keep analog meters on their homes and
businesses without penalties or up-charges.
That's my request.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you.
Okay, those are all the speakers
who had signed up. Is there anyone else in
the audience who would like to say a few
words or make a comment?
(No response)
MR. FREITAS: If I could have some
extra time, I'd like to say something else.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: All right.
STATEMENT OF MR. FREITAS
MR. FREITAS: I would just like to
ditto what the lady just said. And add to my
speech that one of the conclusions of it was
that, yeah, this is the reason I'm bringing
that point up is that PG&E self-inflicted
their own pain and to try to take it out of
the skin of the consumer now for their
decision, their sole decision to invent that
meter, they're going to save labor costs.
They got rid of a ton of labor. They fired
people so we lost jobs because of that meter.
They fired people. They used that equation
to spend $53 million in advertising and they
get out of paying for fires and other
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
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disasters like San Bruno, and they negotiate
discounts and their way out with the dollar
bill and they pay out CPUC.
So my bottom line is that they
should not only be dismantled and taken over
by the state and become a public entity.
The executives should all go to prison. And
then also you should not charge people any
fee whatsoever. As a matter of fact, PG&E
should pay the consumer for the damages they
caused for coming out to their property and
putting the SmartMeter in in the first place.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you. Are
there --
MS. BROWN: We're not that scary. If
you came all the way out here, we'd love to
hear you. You don't have to prepare anything
ahead of time. Just stand up and tell us
what you'd like to say.
Good. Thank you for being brave.
STATEMENT OF MS. BASSEY
MS. BASSEY: Good evening. My name is
Katie Bassey. My last name is spelled B-a-s
as in Sam, s-e-y.
I came here with my children
because I've always been concerned about the
monopoly of PG&E. I strongly feel that if
there was competition, that part of our
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
706
capitalist movement, if you will, that prices
would be down. And I do think it's a result
of the monopoly that we have the SmartMeter
issue.
I do recall when it was first
installed in my home back in 2007-2008, that
it was an issue as far as controversy. There
was a lot of concern, fear of the unknown,
people not knowing what it would entail, what
the cost would be, fluctuation in their bill,
which is pretty much everyone's concern. And
I'd just disagree with the move to have --
again, a reiteration of what was already
said -- a fee for an opt-out.
And I do believe that there should
be competition encouraged as far as
monitoring usage is concerned.
I'm not sure that I really have
much to put in besides that. I actually came
here to learn more about what the situation
was but, you can see, participation was
pretty low.
I just wanted to put in my say.
Thank you for listening.
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you very much.
Okay. I was going to say we have
some students here from Ridgeview High School
for a class and I was wondering if any of you
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
707
had any thoughts that you would like to share
with us. No?
Well, we do appreciate that all of
you did take the time to come out here.
I realize that for many people it is an
inconvenient time.
And I want to encourage, Ms. Bretz,
the people that you were saying who could not
show up, I do encourage them to write letters
to me in care of the Public Advisor's Office
or even addressed directly to me. I read
the letters and I do like to make sure that
I do hear from the public. So if we do have
anybody who felt couldn't make it today, tell
them that they still have an opportunity to
participate.
The public participation hearing,
it's for us to hear your voices but we also
hear your voices through letters and e-mails,
so I encourage that as well.
Is there anything else before we
conclude?
(No response)
ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay. Then there
being nothing further, then we are concluded
at this point, and we are off the record.
///
///
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PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
708
(Whereupon, at the hour of6:30 p.m., this matter having beencontinued to 3:00 p.m., December 14,2012 at Santa Barbara, California, theCommission then adjourned.)
* * * * *
BEFORE THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION
OF THE
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Application of Pacific Gas andElectric Company for Approval ofModifications to its SmartMeter™Program and Increased RevenueRequirements to Recover the Costs ofthe Modifications. (U39M)
And Related Matters.
))))))))))
Application11-03-014;A.11-03-015;A.11-07-020
CERTIFICATION OF TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDING
I, Alejandrina E. Shori, Certified Shorthand
Reporter No. 8856, in and for the State of California
do hereby certify that the pages of this transcript
prepared by me comprise a full, true and correct
transcript of the testimony and proceedings held in
the above-captioned matter on December 13, 2012.
I further certify that I have no interest in the
events of the matter or the outcome of the proceeding.
EXECUTED this 13th day of December, 2012.
_________________________Alejandrina E. ShoriCSR No. 8856
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