15922. N .R . MANDELA

5

Congress of Democrats?— Well . . .

I f you don't know say so?— I frankly do not

know; all that I know is that the Congress of Democrats

is an organisation of Europeans that tried to win the de-

mands set out in the Freedom Charter. I don't know i f 10

they go beyond that I ' d be surprised i f t hey do

but I 'm not au fait with the policy of the South African

Congress of Democrats.

Why would you be surprised if they did go

further?— Because they are committed to strive for the 15

winning of the demands set out in the Freedom Charter,

and those demands don't go this far 0

Now I want to put to you that this para-

graph is fully consistent with the policy of the South

African Congress of Trade Unions?— Again, my lords, 20

as far as I know the policy of the South African Congress

of Trade Unions, they fully support the Freedom Charter

but again . . . .

You make the same answer?— I make the same

answer. 25

Now I want to put to you - this same idea

with reference to the South African Indian Congress?—

My answer is the same0

Now the evidence has been that these lectures

were put forth by not only the African National Congress 30

but by the Secretariat of the National Action Council of

the Congress of the People?— That is so, my lords.

Have you any idea what prompted the other

organisations, other than the African National Congress

to subscribe to these lectures?—- That I cannot answer. 35

15923, R .N . MANDELA

Do you know whether the other organisations

in fact approved of the contents of these lectures?— No,

my lords, I do not know.

Do you know whether the African National Con-

gress approved of the contents of these lectures?— No,

my lords, I don't .

I t ' s possible?— It is possible, but I have no

information whatsoever,

Would it surprise you i f they had endorsed and

approved of the contents of these lectures?— The question

of the contents being distributed?

Yes?— No, I wouldn't be surprised.

In fact this is the type of lecture you would

expect them to put forth?— No, no, not the type of lec-

ture I would expect them to put forward; they have put

forward a number of lectures which have nothing to do with

this point of view, and I would expect them to distribute

amongst their members all points of view.

So far as you are aware, were any lectures put

out which expressed the point of view on Imperialism,

and Capitalism differing from the views on Imperialism

and Capitalism as expressed in these lectures?— No,my

lords, and I 'm not surprised because we are against

Imperialism, we want to destroy i t , my lords* and I

don't expect the Congress - - I would be surprised i f

it put forward lectures expressing that point of view.

Yes. You say that the Congress is opposed

to Imperialism?— Yes.

The Congress movement, does it not have defi-

nite views on the link between Imperialism and Capitalism?-

15924o N.R.MANDELA

Well, the Congress has no view on the link between Impe-

rialism and Capitalism. Individual members may feel that

ttere is a l ink , but from the point of view of Congress I 'm

not aware of the fact that it has any point of view on

the link between Imperialism and Capitalism.

R i g h t . . . . ? — I have hardly ever come across

a person expressing the viewpoint of the Congress - -

I'm taking Capitalism as such „ . .

You personally, Mr . Mandela, are you satisfied

that there is a strong l ink , a vital l ink between the two

? — Yes, I am personally satisfied about that.

I t ' s cleary of course, that these lectures

attack Capitalism?— That is so, my lords.

In no uncertain manner?— That is so , they do.

Now look at the next paragraph in "Change is

needed"; this is the paragraph entitled 'First things

f i r s t ' , page 661, line 4? where it sayss 'Prom this it

does not follow that the Congress movement is uninterested

and unconcerned in any changes that can be brought about

within the present sysbem of South African society,, Every

change that can be brought about whioh makes the l i fe of

the people easier is to be -valued and worked for. Every

change that makes easier and closer the day when the

whole Imperial? f4" system w i l l be overturned is something

to be worked for and valued. Such changes which do not

of themselves end Imperialist oppression are changes

which others outside the Congress movement, even opponents

of Congress, a]so want for their own reasons. It would

be childish anc foolish to say that because these others

are not preparedto go all the way with us in seeking to

15925a N .R . MANDELA

end Imperialism, therefore there can "be no short lived al- 5

liances with them for the immediate things we all want . '

Now, Mr, Mandela, as you understand this paragraph, it

suggests short lived alliances with other people who for

the moment are prepared to co-operate wion tne Congress

Movement, but who at some later stage - for whatever 1°

reason - may not go the whole way with you?-— Yes,

What groups do you think the author had in mind

?— Well , for example the Liberal Party may not be an

alliance going the whole way with us. I t ' s against

racial discrimination and to that extent they are allies , 15

but I do not know if they are with us on the question of

winning the demands set out in the Freedom Charter. I

think that is the type of thing which the author is re-

ferring to. There may be the Progressive Party; it also

in some way is an ally in the sense that they condemn 2 0

racial discrimination; they stand for the extension of

the franchise, but I understand . , .• .

The parting of the w ays is the economic reforms

? — Well , not only that. The Preedom Charter - the methods

used for winning those changes - I understand for examph 25

- this may or may not be true but I understand that

the Progressive Party , . .

BEKCER J ; Fell 9 was the Progressive Party in

existence at the time of the Indictment: period?— No, my

lord; this is just an illustration. But I understand 30

the Progressive Party for example - the leaders - have

condemned the economic boycott launched by Ghana against

South Africa , and it might well be that the Congress would

welcome that boycott; in fact it has been striving for 35

that.

15926. N.R. MANDELA

(Witness); I know the type of thing which is visualised

by the author here.

And it says, the concluding portion of this para-

graph says: ' It is from campaigns like this in which we

work with allies who we know wil l not always be with us

that we build up our strength and our support for the

great sweeping changes that must be made before Imperial-

ism is ended , ' ?— Yes, I see that.

Why is it accepted, the fact that these allies

will not always be with the Congress movement?— Well , I

don't know what the author had in mind c . .

Pausiig there, Mr. Mandela, when you made enquir-

ies, whowas indicated to you a s being the author of

these lectures?— Mr. L„ Bernstein. He was indicated to

me as being the author of these lectures*

I 'm sorry, I interrupted you - I asked you why

there was this appareht certainty that the allies would

not be always with the Congress Move- ent?— Well , I don't

know - t h a t is a question that could best be answered by

the author; it might well be that from experience he has

come to the conclusion that such all;.es would always behave

in this way - - I doi:r' know0

The Mr. ^-.msLcir to whom you refer, who is he?

Of what member i3 he an organisation?— He is a former

member of . t «

RUMPFI J; I think you mean of what organisation

is he a member?

MR. HOEXTER; Yes, my lordf I beg your lordship's

pardon; I thought that was whet I sa id . Of what organi-

sation was he a member?— He used to be a member of the

r

v 15927. N.R. MANDELA

Congress of Democrats, but he has since been banned. I 5

don*t know when he was banned.

Did you know him?— I know him.

Did you ever ask him whether he was the

author of these lectures?— No, I never discussed the

lectures with him, 1°

Now this paragraph 'First things f i r s t ' , the

question of short lived alliances, does this fit in with

the Congress viewpoint as known to you?— I don't even

know i f the Congress has a viewpoint on these alliances,

but speaking for myself I would agree with this . 15

Speaking for yourself?— I would agree with

this view.

Well , now, the next paragraph in this lecture

is the sweeping changes. This occurs at page 662 , Mr.

Mandela - to save time I won't read i t , just read it 20

through to yourself please and tell me when you have

completed your reading?-— Yes, I think it is consistent . . .

This paragraph fairly reflects the viewpoint

of the Congress?-- I think so, yes.

Now the nex" paragraph is the one with which 25

we have already dealt, ' Is it possible '?— There are one

or two sentences which are obscure.

Indicate them please?— If those sentences

indicate that the changes involve the destruction of

Capitalism, then of course it goes much further - - but 30

I don't read i " in that way, and to that extent it is

not inconsistent with the Congress viewpoints

RUIiPFF J ; May I just ask you this . Mr

Mandela. Would it be correct to say that it is the 3 5

15928. N.R. MANDELA

view of Congress and the alliance that Capitalism in

itself as such is bad - Capitalism in the political

sense, as against Socialism, for instance, but that

certain remnants of Capitalism, or certain elements of

Capitalism would still be tolerated?— That would be

most incorrect5 my lord. Congress has never discussed

the question of Capitalism in any shape or form, as far

as I am aware. The question simply has never been dis-

cussed at all . The quarrel is with Imperialism. But

Capitalism as such has never been on the Agenda in the

African National Congress, as far as I am aware,

MR. HOEXTER; As far as you personally are

concerned, Mr. Mandela, is it possible to male an intel-

ligent appraisal of Imperialism, its roots, and its effect

without considering Capitalism? Do you think i t ' s possible

to intelligently divorce the two?— Well , my lord, I have

not gone into the question of the theory or the growth of

Imperialism and its relationship to Capitalism. I only

know that a s far as Africa is concerned Imperialism has

a record of bloodshed ? violence and oppression, and I don't

want i t . The thoery behind it and its relation to Capital-

ism is irrelevant to mer and I have not gone into that.

But I know that this Imperiilioti c force has a record of

bloodshed and oppression, and it must go.

That you made clear, Mr, Mandela, but a l ittle

earlier this morning it wasput to you quite clearly whether

you personally were satisfied that there was a v ital link

between Imperialism and Capitalism; your answer was that

you personally considered there was such a l ink . Now my

question to you is this : in the light of your personal

conviction don't you think i t ' s a waste of time to consider

15929. N . R J M D E L A

Imperialism in isolation without considering how it is

related to the twin evil of Capitalism, from which on

some views it springs?— My lords, I may have said - - I

don't r emember - -

If you did say so, then you a i d i t ? — I know I

said that as far as I am concerned personally I am in 1 0

favour of a classless society? I don't favour Capitalism,

"but as to the link between Capitalism and Imperialism I

haven't gone into that. I don't want Imperialism, I

don't want Capitalism - as an individual; but whether

there is a link between the two and whether the one can

remain i f the other goes, I haven't gone into that ques-

tion.

Mr. Mandela, are you now suggesting that you

have not even at the most superficial level considered

whether the one is related to the other; is that your 2 0

answer?— My lords, I am absolutely frank in saying that

I haven't made any study whatsoever of how Imperialism is

related to Capitalism, Imperialism to me must go, and

I stand for a classless society. I don't want Capitalism

either, but as to the theoretical relationship between the 25

two that is a matter I have not gone into,

Yes0 Were the first two lectures, "The world

we live in" and "The country we live in" a bit of an eye

opener to you? Was it new stuff?— Well , insofar as they

describe the living conditions of the people under Imperial- 30

ism, there is probably nothing I did not know; "they may

have put it differently, the phraseology may be different

from mine, but in describing the conditions, the suffering

which has been brought about by Imperialism to the oppress-

ed people in the world and in South Africa , they confirm 35

15930, N . R . MANDELA

5

my own feelings.

You see, I got the impression from your evi-

dence that whatever the position was in regard to the

third lecture, the first two lectures - in the f irst two

lectures you found nothing at all which was in anyway 10 inconsistent with the viewpoint of the Congress Movement

and indeed, in any way inconsistent with your own view?—

I said so, yes, I said so.

Well , you accept then - - do I understand you

to say that this is the first time,on reading these lec-

tures, this is the first time that you see this type of

view propounded - this link between Imperialism and Capital

ism; is that the suggestion?— No, no, I 'm not suggesting

that at a l l . I may have read works which touched on the

relationship between Imperialism and Capitalism, but I have

not made any study of i t . I just don't understand nor am

I interested in that; all that I am concerned with is

that I don't want Imperialism, it mus"̂ go-

You see, just have a cursory look at the

first lecture and then I want you to tell me when you

strike any ideas that you may have encountered in your

earlier s t u d i o zi r e Mandela, i f you would please

look at page 631; there's a paragraph entitled 'Under-

standing the world ' ? at line 12 . 'Bitter struggles for

freedom and for the good things of l i fe which modern

knowledge and industry can give all men, go on everywhere

all the time. These are the struggles of our time and

i f we understand them and there is reason we can under-

stand the world we live in , its (yents and happenings ,

its history and its politics. I f we understand these

15931. N.R.MANDELA

struggles and learn how to direct themwe can direct the

course of the future, so that from all occurrences and

trends of to-day we wi l l be able to b uild for ourselves

the kind of world we would like to live in . The world

we live in is then a world divided into classes, into

masters and men. It is a world in which one small class

of men, the masters, those who own the tools, the machines,

the factories, the mines, the forests, the farms, live

from the work of the many, the working people who own

nothing but the ir ability to work. This system of some

living end growing rich through the work of others we

Call exploitation. ' Now, is it correct to say, Mandela,

that the struggle in South Africa of the Congress move-

ment is levelled firstly against national oppression,

and secondly, a gainst economic exploitation?— Yes.

Then the next paragraph in this lecture is

'What is your labour worth? ' . I don't want to waste

time on this; do you remember this paragraph?— Yes.

Does it appear to you to propound any theory

of economics which is held in any political ouarter?—

I don't know i f it does; all that I can say is that I

find it very interesting.

Yes. Good. Well , then, just look at the

concluding lines of this paragraph on page 635 , line

15 , in the middle of the page; having described this

theory of the value of labour, it s ayss 'Our world is

a world of class struggle where the workers struggle

against exploitation for the full value of their labour

and the masters struggle to exploit the workers as much

as possible for their own enrichment'. Now, is it fair

to say that that is the viewpoint, too, of the Congress

15932, N.R. MANDELA

Movement in South Africa , insofar as it accepts the libe-

ratory struggle in South Africa?— I don't think that the

Congress has a view on the class struggle. I don't think

so .

Wel l , l et ' s start from this point, Mr. Mandela;

I take it you won't suggest this is inconsistent with

the viewpoint of the Congress Movement?— No.

And I take it further that it is your own impres-

sion?— Oh, yes.

Do you know whether the South African Congress of

Trade Unions adopts any theory about the link between the

Liberatory movement and the struggle of classes?™ My lords,

I do not know.

Do you know whether the South African Congress

of Democrats sees the problem in that l ight?— No, my

lords, I don 't , except to say that I know that it fully

supports the Freedom Charter and they work for the realisa-

tion of its demands.

Yes. Then the next paragraph which is paragraph

8 is called 'Division by Nations' and it says: 'Our world

is not only divided into classes in each country, it is

also divided into nations0, different people living dif-

ferent sorts of lives in separate lands, and the struggle

of classes in our world has led to the conquest and en-

slavement of some nations by others". Now pausing there,

Mr.Mandela, i t ' s clear that the Congress movement holds

the view, and perhaps correctly, that there have been

conquests and enslavement of some nations by others?—Yes.

I put it to you that this is fully consistent

with the Congress movement viewpoint, that this has pro-

ceeded from the struggle of classes as is suggested in

15933. N.R.MANDELA

this paragraph?— Well, I repeat again that the Congress

has no policy, no view on the question of the class

struggle.

Is this your view, Mr. Mandela?— It i s .

Then it says« ' In the early days when the

wealth of the masters was made by slaves the masters

crossed the world for more and more slaves, using their

arms and weapons, gun powder and war ships - - the rulers

of those days conquered and herded like cattle the people

who st i l l lived by hunting or by tilling the soil , Africa

and Asia became the slave farms of the rulers of Europe

and terrible sufferingswere inflicted on the people. '

Is that last portion consistent with the viewpoint of

Congress?— I don't know i f it is consistent with the view-

point of Congress, but it is consistent with my own view.

Yes. So far as you know is it inconsistent

with the viewpoint of Congress?— No.

Just look at the next paragraph 9 , 'Conquering

the Colonies' . 'But in later,days the days of Capitalism,

a newkind of exploitation developed. In the countries of

Europe where industries developed f irst , England, France,

Holland, Germany, the masters in their search for ever

greater and greater profits looked around for cheaper and

cheaper labour, for cheaper and cheaper raw materials.

Again they turned to those lands where people were still

living as hunters and farmers without industries and

machines. To Africa and Asia , India and South America.

They conquered these countries by force of arms, forcing

the local native populations to work in grinding poverty

and exploitation in the mines, forests and plantations,

15934. N .R . MANDELA

where the raw materials for industry in Europe were pro-

duced.' Now that is mainly historical, but does it seem

to you to fit in with the Congress viewpoint?— Well , I

don't know if it fits in with the Congress viewpoint. It

may, it may not.

Is it your own?— It is my own.

Then paragraph 10 says, 'While the workers of

Europe, of the industrial countries, were themselves ex-

ploited as we have described, the workers of these Colo»

nies were exploited in a new way; they were often driven

to work by force, herded from their farms; by force -

almost slave workers. They were workers without rights

to change their jobs, stop work, go away, or do anything

except what they were ordered. Their wages were not even

enough to keep them alive and allow them to bring up

families. But there seemed to be such a great supply of

these Colonial semi-slaves that they could be worked to

death and allowed to die of diseases and hunger. These

were the Colonial workers as they are called. To keep them

in submission they were oppressed as a nation, denied all

the rights and privileges which workers have in the coun-

tries of Europe. All the skilled and well paid jobs were

closed to them. All the political rights were denied them.

They were exploited in a new way, a double exploitation - -

exploited as workers and oppressed and exploited as in-

ferior people - subject races . ' 'This is the exploita-

tion we call Imperialism, and those who suffer from it

we call the Colonial people' . Now, Mr . Mandela, does

that paragraph appear to you to be consistent with the

viewpoint of the Congress movement?— Again my answer is

15935 MR. MANDELA

the sane, my lords. I don't know i f it is consistent with

the viewpoint of the Congress movement, but it is certainly

consistent with my own viewpoint.

Yes. Do you find anything, any single sentence

in this paragraph, which you think might be inconsistent 10

with the viewpoint of Congress?— All I can say, ray lords,

is that the Congress has no view on the question of the

class struggle, but that I can find nothing inconsistent

with the policy of the A . N . C .

Looking at the concluding two sentences, Mr* 15

Mandela, does not the Congress Movement hold the view

that in this country there is a double exploitation of

the raasses of the people; that they are oppressed as a

natlonpl group and they are also exploited economically?—

No, not the A .N .C . - not the Congress. The Congress 20

holds the view that the African people are oppressed as

a nation; there may be members in the Congress who feel

that there is this double exploitation, but I am not aware

that the Congress has a view on this question.

Does not the Freedom Charter suggest that what 25

has to be cured is really a double exploitation?— No, it

does attack economic restrictions; it wants free economy.

Let 's have a look at the next paragraph, Mr.

Mandela. 'Struggle for Liberation ' . It says: 'Imperialism

has divided up t he whole world, not only into ports which

are owned by one or other of the Imperialist countries,

not only into Empires, but into two sections; the Colo-

nial countries of the world and the Imperialist countries,

and with that division has come new struggles; the

struggles and wars between the Imperialist countries them- 35

15936. N.R.MANDELA

10

15

selves for possession of the Colonies, and the right to

exploit then, and also the great unending struggle of

the peoples of the Colonial world against Imperialism

for the right to govern themselves, to live independent

of foreign masters, and to live as people equal with the

men of other nations.1 Pausing there, I take it that

you accept that as the viewpointof Congress?— I do, my

lords.

And i t ' s your own view?— Yes, it is my own

view,

I read further: 'Twice in the last fifty years

Imperialism has caused world wars in which every nation

in the world has been involved in the slaughter and des-

truction. Each of these wars has been fought because the

Imperialist powers have tried to re-divide the Colonies

between them. Between world wars Imperialism wages cease-

less war to subjugate and conquer new Colonial lands.

Today in Kenya and Malaya, yesterday in Korea and Indo-

china. and Palestine; before that in China, in Spain,

in Abyssinia, Imperialism lived by armed force and

terror and lived always in war . ' The second half , is

that in accord with the view held by the Congress move-

ment?— All I can say is that I see nothing in this

paragraph which is inconsistent with the policy of Con-

gress.

And i t ' s also your own view?— It is also my

own view, yes.

Then turning to paragraph 12 of this lec-

ture, 'Socialist World' , it says s 'But the struggle of

the people for their freedom cannot be held back by 35

20

25

30

15937. NR.MAUDELA

force and terror. In the age of Imperialism the peoples

struggle for their freedom has grown strong, strong

enough for whole sections of the world's people to "break

out of the net of Colonial oppression, and to achieve

their national independence, strong enough for whole sec-

tions of the world's people to hurst out of the net of

Capitalist exploitation. To overthrow the old system of

private ownership, of tools and machines and factories,

and to replace it with a new system, the system we call

Socialism where there are no passes and no exploited men

"but where all the factories and farms and mines and ma-

chines are owned in common by all the people who work

for their own benefit and are us£d not to make profits

for a f ew ' ?— It certainly is not the view of the S . A .

National Congress.

Do you say that this paragraph is inconsistent

with the African National Congress' view?— TheAfrican

National Congress has not discussed Socialism at a l l .

Is it not curious then, Mr. Mandela, that it

supports the Freedom Charter which on your own admission

that it seeks to support a form of Socialism now?— I dis-

agree. The Freedom Charter introduces Socialism in

respect of certain specified industries0, the gold mines,

the banks, and it seeks to break up the monopolies, and

there are reasons justified by our own local conditions

- i t ' s done by the State, it has Socialised certain in-

dustries; you would never argue that because the State

has socialised the Iron industry, that South Africa is a

Socialist State.

Pausing there for a moment, Mr. Mandela, what-

15938. N.R.MANDELA

5 ever the A . N . C . policy might have been, what seems to be

to you the central idea of this paragraph?— Socialism.

It seems to me that the central idea is the public owner-

ship of the means of production.

The destruction of Capitalism?— Yes. 10

Now you've already dealt with the next para-

graph, 'The world we live i n ' ; you know, that's the one

that contrasts the two groups of countries?— Yes.

Earlier this morning you seemed to agree v/ith

what was contained in this paragraph; would you read it 15

through again please; I don't want to waste time, and

tell me when you have completed your reading?— Yes.

Now I want to go through this bit by bit ; the

first senterc e says 'We live in a world divided into

Capitalists and workers who are exploited '?— Yes. 20

Is that your own view?— That's my own view.

Is that inconsistent with the viewpoint of

Congress in any way, as you know i t ? — Well , I can only

say that as far as I 'm aware the Congress has no view-

point at all on this. 25

Good. Then the next sentence says 'We live in

a world divided into Imperialist countries' , it mentions

them, which oppress and exploit the Colonial countries,

that is to say, America, Erance, Holland and Belgium, and

"We also live in a wild divided into two sections, in the 30

sense that Capitalism rules in the one group of countries,

and in the other group of countries exploitation of man

by man is being abolished' . Now, is that your view?

More or less it seems to me to be a little bit rigid .

Well . . ? — But more or less along those lines, 35

15939. N.R.MANDELA

yes.

Is it in any way inconsistent with the viewpoint

of Congress?— Except that I 'm not aware of any view-

point whatsoever of Congress on this matter.

So you cannot say whether i t ' s inconsistent 5

is that the position?— Yes, my lords.

(COURT ADJOURNED).

15

20

25

30

10

15940. 6/8/1960

N.R.MANDELA

MR. HOEXTERs My lords, the accused Ndimba

is still absent; I ask that your lordships proceed in

his absence until further notice.

KENNEDY Js What1 a the matter with him?

MR. HOEXTERs I understand that he 's still i l l ,

my lord.

RUMPFF J; Do you know anything about i t , Mr.

Fischer?

MR. FISCHER: My lords, he has an infection known

as Vincent's Angina, my lords, which is an infection which

takes effect when there is a vitamin deficiency. He has ^

been placed in hospital in order to try and remedy ths vitamin

deficiency, my lords.

RUMPFF J % Yes, very well , we will proceed in

his absence.

MR. HOEXTERs As your lordship pleases. 2 0

R.N . MANDELA (Contd0 under former oath);

XXD. BY MR. HOEXTER (Contd.) Mr. Mandela, when the Court . — 25

adjourned on Friday we had almost finished going through

the three lectures thatw ere put to you. You wil l recall

this paragraph in the third lecture entitled " I s it pos-

s i b l e ' ? — Could I look at it please?

Certainly, do so. While they are fetching the 30

book, Mr. Mandela, on page 663 of the record this will be

found?— Yes, I ' ve got i t .

Now this is the paragraph which describes the

State as an instrument which rules by armed force, and you

will recollect that at the beginning of the cross examina- 35

15941. N.R.MANDELA

tion I put to you whether this paragraph suggested any

line of political thought to you and you were not able to

remember. I ' d like to put to you very briefly Exhibit

NRM.l which was found in your possession, and I ' d like

you to look at a portion which was read into the record

at page 694-1 please. Mandela, I don't want to waste time

by reading this out aloud; i f you would look from line

2 on page 6941 you 'll find a passage beginning ' I f you

examine the State from the standpoint of this fundamental

d i v i s i o n . . . . ' and then it goes on to describe the State,

and one can sum it up by s aying it describes the State as

an apparatus of coercion. Would you just read through

that please, Mr. Mandela?— Yes, I ' ve read i t .

Now would you look then on page 6942, this is

an exerpt from the same exhibit NRM.l, line 16 , where there

is a passage which begins 'The State is a machine for main-

taining the rule of one class over another'; would you just

read through the paragraph which follcws on that?— Yes, I

have read it i up to page 9 on page 6943,

And lastly , Mr. Mandela, as far as this ex-

hibit is concerned, on page 6943, line 8 , aquotation from

page 17 of the Exhibit, which begins 'The State is a

machine for the oppression of one class by another' ; read

that please?— Yes.

Now, Mr, Mandela, would you agree with me that

the essential idea conveyed in these passages, in the

exhibit NRM.l, coincide broadly with the idea of the State

outlined in the three lectures A ,84 to A , 86?— I think so,

my lords, yes.

And does that also accord with your personal

15942o N.R.MLNDELA

views on the subject?— I don*t know about the theory -

there is a lot of theory here . . but my experience is

based purely oil the practical effect of the State theory . . .

Disregarding the theory, and taking it on your

imperical approach, does the Congress movement regard the

eUTect of State rule in the same way; would you s ay?

Well , the Congress movement hasn't discussed this question

of theory for obvious reasons. It does not refrain from

discussing this question because i t ' s negligent of its

duties, or because it has had no time, It has done so

& r very specific reasons. Congress has no special

ideology of philosophy beyond the broad aims of fighting

for equality, and it is the view of the African National

Congress that a discussion of these philosophical matters

might split the unity of the organisation, and because

of that the Congress has deliberately refrained from dis-

cussing this issue; so far as I am aware Congress has

no theory on the nature of the State- There may, of

course, be documents which say that insofar as this par-

ticular issue is concerned our State is a despotic state -

based on a ct' 1^ ?xpcrio^oe? not because of any theoretical

approach.

But whatever the underlying theory, that is

in fact what the Congress movement has decided about the

nature of the State, that i t ' s a despotic, fascist state

which rules by force?— Well , I don't know if there is un-

any formal decision. I am/aware that there has been a

discussion analysing what the nature of the State i s f

but there may have been documents which say "We condemn

the Government of South Africa because it is despotic",

15943. W.R. MANDELA

based purely on experience. 5

Now one last point as far as the lecture is con-

cerned, Mr. Mandela. In the same lecture, in the same

paragraph, the concluding portion, this is the paragraph

' Is it possible ' , the last paragraph says: ' It is clear

that such a rule as this cannot be set aside by minor 10

concessions and reforms. In the end such a s tate appara-

tus can never serve the ends of the people ' . Now, do you

agree with me that the idea there seems to be the complete

destruction of the State - in other words, the army, the

police force, the Civil Service, the Courts. The whole !5

apparatus of State w i l l have to be destroyed and replaced

by a new one I?— Well , not from my own reading of this

paragraph, but as far as I understand this paragraph all

that the author is saying is that this State based on ex-

ploitation and discrimination will make way for one which 20

is in a ccordance with the attributes of a Peoples Demo-

cracy, as defined by the author in the lecture. I f , on

the other hand, what he is saying here is that the insti-

tutions of the State as we know i t , the Parliament, the

army, the police force, the provincial councils, the 25

courts, wi l l be scrapped, and be replaced by a new form

of State without these institutions - then, of course,

that is contra to the policy of the African National

Congress, and I don't agree with i t .

30

Well , perhaps not that the new State will

succeed without these institutions, but the old institu-

tions will have to be completely scrapped and entirely

new institutions put in their place?— Well, i f he means

that, if he means that Parliament will go, the army will 35

15944. N.R. MANDELA

go f then that, of course, goes against the policy of the

African National Congress, and to that extent he is ex-

pressing his own point of view and not the point of view

of the Congress. Not even mine.

You wi l l recall that his lordship, the Presiding

10

Judge, questioned you on Priday about one of the require-

ments for a Peoples Democracy under the title "What is a

Peoples Democracy" - - the lecture mentions too, the Police

Porce and Army must be replaced by a genuire People's

Armed Guard. Do you remember that?— I remember that. 15

Well, does that not accord with Congress policy

~ with the viewpoint of Congress?— Well , I don't know what

he meant by using this phrase 'A genuine People's Armed

Guard to uphold the rights of the people ' , but as far as

I understand Congress policy when the demands set out in 20

the Preedom Charter are realised we w i l l have our ordinary

police force as it is to-day, and the army too, except,

of course, that it will break down the colour bar . The

police force will be there to carry out the normal police

duties done by the police force anywhere, and they will 25

deal with any situation which requires police duties.

But i f a particular situation is of such proportions that

it cannot be dealt with through the normal police duties

then, of course, the Army wil l be employed to deal with

such a situation. That is the ordinary use to which a

police force and a people's army wil l be used, and is

used.

Mre Mandela, I ' d like you to look please at

another exerpt from this NRM.l and I want to know in the

first place whether it accords with your personal view

15945a N.R.MANDELA

and will you therefore turn please to page 6956 of the

record, line 14 and do you see the short bit which reads

as follows; ' In order to overthrow Capitalism it was not »

only necessary to remove the bourgeosie from power, it

was not only necessary to expropriate the capitalists, but

also to smash entirely the bourgeous state machine and

its old army - its bureaucratic officialdom, and its

police force, and to substitute for it a new proletarian

form of state, a new socialist state. 1 Now, insofar as

the smashing of the bourgeous State machine is concerned,

and its organs, is that the way in which you see the pas-

sage to a Peoples Democracy, as sought by the Congress

movement? Do you see this as a necessary process, the

smashing of the State machine and all its organs as here

described?— Definitely not, my lords, Not as far as 20

the author has 3et out the attributes of a Peoples Demo-

cracy.

We are at cross purposes Mandela; disregard

the lectures for a moment and confine yourself to this

short passage in NRMS1; do you agree with this analysis 2'

of the situation, that the following things are neces-

sary before Capitalism can bo overthrown; do you per-

sonally consider this to be a correct exposition?— No,

not necessar i lymy lords. I f in the first place it means

that violence is the only necessary method to be employed 31

in bringing about a Socialist State, then, of course, my

own view - whatever the position might have been in other

countries - my own view is that it is not necessary in

this country to employ force and violence in order to bring about either the demands set out in the Freedom 35

15946. N.R. MANDELA

Charter, or even to bring about Socialism. I don't think

i t ' s necessary at all to do so.

Now disregarding the question whether force

is necessary or not, what is your comment there? Assume

that it can be a chieved without force, do you still see

the necessity for this radical substitution as far as

all organs of State are concerned?— In order to bring

about the demands of the Freedom Charter?

Yes?— Oh, no, not at a l l , my lords. I have

explained that our attitude, the attitude of Congress as

I understand i t , is that the institutions of the State

will remain as they are, e xcept that in content they will

be radically changed^ wherebefore it was an institution

confined only to members of one racial group, it will -

membership of that institution will be open to all races

in the country. But apart from that, the institutions

of the State wi l l not dismantle; they will remain exactly

as they are.

Now, that is how you understand the attitude

of the Congress?— Yes,-

Now leaving aside for a moment your under-

standing of the Congress viewpoint and coming back to

this paragraph in the lecture ' Is it possible ' , when he

says that such a State apparatus in the end cannot serve

the needs of the Congress people, how do you read that

paragraph?— I have already said that as far as I see it

there is no suggestion whatsoever in that paragraph that

the author has in mind the view that you wil l have to

smash up the present institutions of the State. I under-

stand him to mean that tiese institutions as citadels of

15947. JT.R. MANDELA

racial discrimination will have to go, but they will be

there open to all members of our multi-racial society;

that's how I understand i t . As I say, if he conveys

here the impression that these institutions will be smashed

up then, of course, that is not our policy.

One last question, Mr, Mandela, Banishing 1 0

from your mind what you may have been told about the iden-

tity of the author of these lectures, in the light of your

own reading, what do you think the political affilliation

of the author of these three lectures i s , or was at the

time when he w rote these lectures?-*- Well, my impression ^

is that the lectures are Leftist,

Communist?— Well , I don't know; it depends

what you mean by Communist; I think they are Leftist ,

Do you see anything in them whieh is inconsist*

20

ent with what you have gleaned of Communism from your own

readings?— Well , as I indicated, my lords, my own knowledge

of Marxism-Leninism is very, very, very elementary indeed.

So is mine, Mr. Mandela, but in the light of

such reading as you have done, such understanding as you

do have, do you find anything in these lectures which is

in any way inconsistent with your understanding of Commu-

nism?— Well, in the first place if there is a suggestion

in these lectures of force and violence as a means of at-

taining the Peoples Democracy, as described here, then, of

course, I don't agree with i t , my lords.

Mandela, I 'm sorry, my question may not hare

been clear. I 'm not asking you now whether or not you

agree with these lectures; that has been canvassed. The

question to you now is whether by your understanding of 35

15946* N.R.MANDELA

Communism, whether you find anything in these three lec-

tures which is inconsistent with Communism?— Well , as far

as I understand it - - I haven't engaged in any extensive

study . . .

You have been at pains to make that c l e a r , . , , ? —

I don't know whether we are ad idem about what we aretalk-

ing about. I am merely talking about Marxism; whether

that is the same thing as Communism I don't know, but I

am merely - - I have told you that I have read a l ittle

bit of Marxism, and as far as I have been able to under*

stand Marxism, i t ' s doctrine of force, is not necessarily

r method of attaining a Socialist State. Now if there

any suggestion in these lectures of force and violence

as a necessary means of bringing about changes to Social-

ism then, of course, whatever has happened in any other

country I don't agree with that.

You don't agree?— I don't agree as it applies

to our situation here.

Thank you. Now, you've put it on a theoretical

basis , Mr. Mandela; could you tell us please whether on

your reading of these three lectures there seems to be any

suggestion at all that the Peoples Democracy must, or might

be attained through violence; you've made it clear that

you don't agree with such a viewpoint, but on your reading

of the lectures, is it suggested by the lectures that that

is likely to arise?— I can 't agree - - to the passage

you have referred me, I can't agree . . .

Now I 'm nots uggesting the lectures do, I

want to know your impression of the lectures; whether

they suggest violence; you said just now ' I f these lectures

15949. N.R.MANDELA

imply the necessity for -violence then you don't agree?—

Yes.

Now the question i s , on your reading of these

lectures do they seem to you to imply violence?— Well ,

I 'm afraid that on my reading they don't seem to suggest

violence at a l l , but i f they do then, of course, I don't

agree.

Mr. Mandela, the question was put to you last

week in chief , whether on your understanding of Communism

and Marxiam-Dejiinien a revolution was always a necessity

in every country for the achievement of a Communist State

?-•• Wasn't it a violent revolution?

Or violence?— That's how I understood the

question.

Yes; and your answer was, I think, that you

felt that insofar as violence may have been implicit in

the writings of Marx and Lenin, and more specifically

in Communist manifestos, you felt that in the contemporary

world scene we had the assurance of Mr. Kruschschev that

that force would not always be necessary; it would depend

upon the conditions prevailing in any given country, to

decide whether it should be a forcible transition to

Communism, or whether the transition could be a peaceful

one. Is that your view?— Yes, my lords, it i s .

Now I ' d like to put a brief passage to you

contained in the exhibit, and I ' d like your personal com-

ments on i t . Would you look please at the issue of

"Fighting Talk" which was read into the record at page

3049; this is "Fighting Talk" of March 1956 , andthere

is an article in 'Fighting Talk' called "Kruschschev on

15950. N .R . MANDELA

Soviet Policy"; it purports to be a statement by Mr.

Krugchchev and I have frankly compared it with

another exhibit which is Kruschschev's speech at the

20th Congress of the Soviet Party and this article that

I am about to put to you seems to be an exerpt from the

10

15

20

original?— Yes.

The original is contained inPA.24. Now I*d

like you to look f irst , Mr. Mandela, at page 3049 of the

record,

RUMPFF J; Is it a long paragraph?

MR. HOEXTERs It»s very short, my lord,

RUMPFF J; Well, just read i t .

MR. HOEXTER; Yes; first of all , "Leninism

teaehes us that the ruling classes will not surrender

their power-voluntarily, and the greater or lesser intent

sity which the struggle may assume, the use or non-use

of violence in the transition to Socialism depends on the

resistance of the exploiters, on whether the exploiting

«3.ass itself resorts to violence rather than on the Pro-

letariat" . I take it that insofar as South Africa is

concerned, Mr. Mandela, and insofar as the achievement of

the Peopes Democracy by the Congress Movement in South

Africa is concerned, your view would be the same here,

that the possibility of violence is dictated in the first

place by whether or not the ruling classes resort to

30

violence?— Except that even when the ruling class uses

violence our own policy is not to resort to violence.

Yes; subject to that proviso, do you agree?—

It might be.

Now, as far as this article is concerned, I 35

15951. N.R . MANDELA

want to read you a short passage on page 350 and page 351?

the passage . . .

KENNEDY J: 3050 and 3051.

MR. HOEXTER; I beg your lordship's pardon, 3050

and 3051. I read first from 3050, line 27 , the concluding

paragraph on that page. The article sayss "The winning

of a stable parliamentary majority backed by a mass revo-

lutionary movement of the Proletariat, and of all the work-

ing people could create for the working class of a number

of Capitalist and former Colonial countries, the conditions

needed to secure fundamental social changes.' Then it goes

on on the next page, ' In the countries where Capitalism is

still strong, and has a huge military and police apparatus

at its disposal the reactionary forces w i l l , of course,

inevitably offer serious resistance; there the transition

to Socialism will be attended by a sharp class revolutionary

struggle*. Now, forgetting South Africa for a moment, on

your understanding of Communism is this the statement by

Mr. Kruschechev which you have in mind when you qualify

the writings of the old authors?— Yes. . . I 'm not looking

now, I saw the printed version of this statement, but it

rings familiar.

Yes , well , to sum up, what Kruschev says here

is that you get countries where you get a stable parlia-

mentary majority, if it is backed up by a revolutionary

movement, a mass revolutionary movement, in those coun-

tries your transition can be a peaceful one?— Yes.

But, he says, on the other hand, in countries

where Capitalism is strong, where you have this vast

military and police apparatus at the disposal of the State

15952 N .K . MANDELA

10

15

there you must expect serious resistance and you must ex-

pect that the transition to Socialism will be attended by

a sharp class revolutionary struggle?— Yes. I think that

statement appears in the printed version of the speech

which I have seen.

Yes; and do you accept that analysis of the

situation?— Well , firstly I do regard Kruschev as an ex-

pert on Marxist theory, but I don't regard what he says

ag necessarily binding on me; that is his view as an ex-

pert, and there are obviously other experts, but all that

I extract from that statement is that a peaceful transfor-

mation to Socialism is possible, and my little knowledge

that I have convinces me that such peaceful transitions

have been effected.

Do you also accept the factors he mentions

m the factors which will decide whether the transition is

to be peaceful or violent?— Well , from my own analysis

of conditions here I think it is possible in this country

to effect a peaceful transformation to Socialism, without

violence and without the necessity of being backed up by

a revolution, - just by using the ordinary institutions of

Parliament; I think that is possible,

Mr. Mandela, do you think i t ' s possible to

achieve a transformation to a Communist State in this coun-

try peacefully?— You keep on talking about a Communist

State; I talk about a Socialist State; I don't know i f

the two are the same. If you say that you a re using the

term Communist State in the same sense in which I use the

term Socialist State then perhaps we are ad idem, but I 'm

talking all the time about a peaceful transition to a 35

20

25

3C

10

15

15953. N.R.MANDELA

5

Socialist State? the two may be the same, I don't know.

But I ' d like you to either limit yourself to a transition

to a Socialist State, not a Communist State, because it may

mean a different thing. I don't know.

I appreciate the difficulty , Mr. Mandela, but

we were discussing it in the light of what Kruschev was say-

ing?— Yes. I think he talks about various forms of trans-

formation to Socialism.

Yes. But here he is obviously referring to

Socialism as Communism, not so; in this speeeh to which

you have had access?— Well , I don't know, but I am talking

about a transition to a Socialist State.

Well , l e t ' s have a look at a further article

in "Fighting Talk"? this one appears at page 3064 of the

record; I t ' s in "Fighting Talk" of November, 1956, and it

purports to be a letter by a person called Lionel Forman

to 'Fighting Talk'? i t ' s a letter about Socialism. Did

you know Lionel Forman?— Yes, I did.

And at page 3064- of the record the following

appears, i t ' s a very, very short passage, I ' l l read it to

yous ' In Britain , France, Italy and the United States for

example almostall Socialists are agreed that a decisive

Parliamentary victory by a popular front could pave the way

for a peaceful transition to Socialism because world

Capitalism is no longer in any position to intervene in

those countries as it did on behalf of Franco in 1935,

or in Quatimala (? ) last year' and he makes that statement

in the light of the previous statement as to whether the

transition should be peaceful or violent. Well , now, here

again we see this requirement of a decisive parliamentary 35

25

30

15954 N.R.MLNDELA

victory. Then in Kruschev's article it referred to a

'stable parliamentary majority 1?— Yes.

Now both these people seem to be implying that

you must have that - - that is the requirement before the

transition can be peaceable?— Yes. Well , they may

think so, but I certainly think that it is possible to

effect this transformation in the ordinary course of

using parliamentary institutions. I f I may illustrate it

fs?om the little knowledge that I have, my lords.

RUMPPF J ; Yes?— I understand from the mate-

15

r^al that I have read about Hungary that such a pea»eful

transformation was in fact effected, and this is the back»

ground of i t . Shortly before the War Hungary was under *

the pro^az-i dictatorship of Admiral Hoethy. During the

War, that is the last War, Hungary was liberated by the 20

Red Army, and the Hoethy dictatorship was set aside .

Immediately after that a number of parties which were

illegal under the Hoethy dictatorship emerged, and these

included the Communist Party, the Smallholders Party,

and the Social Democrats. These three parties formed a 25

Coalition on a common programme of land reforms and of

cleaning ^ut Fascist influence and Pas cist ideology, and

of co-operation, peaceful co-operation with neighbouring

States. How this Coalition came into power with the

Smallholders Party having the ma jority°7 in the G-ovornment

the Smallholders Party had eight Cabinet posts, the

Communist Party four, the Social Democrats four, and

I think one to the National Peasants Party. In a sub-

sequent election in 1947 the Coalition, now without the

Smallholders Party - the Communist Party, the National 35

15955 N.F-. MANDELA

Peasants Union and the Social Democrats - came into power 5

and the Communist Party scored a sweeping victory - gaining

about 60io of the votes, and it came into power in Hungary,

and up to the present time it is in power and it has brought

about a Socialist society in Hungary. Now, I am not aware

from the l ittle reading that I ' v e done, I am not aware that

it was backed by any revolutionary organisation. It was a

peaceful transformation that was effected. Just to make

sure that this was no accident - in the State of Kerala in

India such a peaceful transformation was effected there too,

where the Communist Party became the ruling power. It i s ,

of course, true that there was intervention by the Indian

Central Government and the Communist Party there is no

longer in power, but even that brief period when the Commu-

nist Party was in power does illustrate the principle that

20

it is possible to effect a peaceful transformation. Now

I think that such peaceful transformation could take place

even much more easily in our own country here, with our

own conditions . . . MR. HOEXTBR;

Provided you got a stable parliamentary majority

? — Yes. Oh, yes, 2 5

Now, what prospects do you think there were

during the period of the Indictment of achieving a stable

parliamentary majority of a Socialist Party?— Well , I

don't know in the first place i f the lectures are written

with the view that these changes will take place during

the period of the Indictment; I have never known, and

of course the author is the best person to explain that,

but as far as we are concerned and as far as I have been

able to understand Congresspolicy, the demands set out in

the Preedom Charter will be attained in the foreseeable 3 5

^ % - > 15956. n .R , MANDELA

future. It may be ten years, it may be twenty years, it

may be twenty-five years - it may be five years, but it

was in the foreseeable future; we did not visualise that

these demands would be realised in two years time, in

five years time.

That I accept, Mr. Mandela; is your answer then 1 0

this , that you expected within foreseeable time the gaining

of a stable parliamentary majority in this country by a

^ Socialist Party?— I 'm talking now about a Peoples Demo-

eraey, as referred to in the lectures. I thought when you

were referring to the period of the Indictment you had in ^

mind the attainment of a Peoples Democracy. I f we are

talking about Socialism the African National Congresshas

never had the question of the transformation to a Socialist

society in its programme at a l l . It never thought about

this question at a l l , to say nothing about the period of 2 0

the Indictment.

Well , leaving aside the African National Con-

gress for the moment, the examples you have cited in

^ Hungary and Karela, do they not support the view we have

looked at by Kruschev and Lionel Forman . . ? — I really

don't know; that I don't know.

The view that the transition to Socialism as

employed by them, that transition can be peaceful i f there

is a stable parliamentary majority?— I really don't know

what they accept and what they do not accept,

V/ell, i t ' s obvious from their articles what

they accept; the articles say implicitly in one class

or state you can have a peaceful transition; that 's the

case where there is a stable parliamentary majority. 35 r

15957. N .R . MANDELA

How do you agree with that, or have you no views on the

subject?— Well, in the first place our policy is one of

exerting pressure on the Government J depending on the

strength of that pressure the Government may capitulate

to our demands and grant all the demands set out in the

Freedom Charter without us being in Parliament, or the

voters might say 'We have changed; we will elect into

power a government which will negotiate with these people'

and they'll do so. Now, a s far as we are concerned,

there wil l be no represen t ation at all at that time in

Parliament, but because of our extra-parliamentary pres-

sure we might attain our demands without any stable par-

liamentary majority at al l . Of course, our aim is to go

to parliament and to use that parliament, but the method

which we are using now is extra-parliamentary, and those

methods in our view will bring us the things that we want.

But you say you conceive of a position where the

Government might be forced to meet all your demands at a

stage when the African National Congress has not yet

achieved any parliamentary representation at all?— Yes,

oh yes.

Now you've mentioned two possibilities ; first

of all the Government of its own volition may be forced

to recognise the demands of the Freedom Charter; the

second possibility is that although the Government, the

ruling party as such, may remain adament, the pressure

of the voters may be such that the Government will be

forced to resign?— Yes.

Is there a third possibility?— Yes, there

is the other possibility which I discussed in reply to

I think by his lordship, the Presiding Judge, i f I

15958. N .R . MANDELA

remember correctly. I gave an example here of how we

hope it might be possible for us to get our demands

accepted in full by the G-overnment. I think that as a

result say of a campaign of civil disobedience the

Government says "Gentlemen, I t ' s talk" / 'we are afraid

that we wil l not be able to carry the European popula-

tion with us on pur demands, we would suggest that we

give you fifty seats to be occupied by Africans; in

the next five years we suggest that w e should extend

it in educa-ting the country to accept your demands ' %

I think you have explained that to us , Mr.

Mandela?— Yes. "You would then have fifty African

members in Parliament;at the emd of five years we might

talk again" and the Government then might say "We will

now give you another fifty members" ? we would then

have a stable parliamentary majority and with that

majority we can say 'We declare for Socialism in this

•ountry' .

Mr. Mandela, is there a further possibility

that the application of pressure by the Congress Move-

ment might result in strong counter pressure by the

Government, the ruling class, and that there would be

violence?— Well , that possibility is always there, is

but in fact the view/held is that the more pressure we

exert the more the Government might harden. Now, that

might well be so, but we believe that our policy will

bring down the Government in spite of its intentions.

We believe that already in this country there is a large

body of voters who are hostile to the policy of the

Government, and we believe that because of pressure, both

15959. N.R'. MAUDE IA

externally and internally, this Government, in spite and 5

notwithstanding the fact that it might believe that it

can deal with any situation here with armed force, we

believe that through all the pressure, internally and

externally, the Government will be brought to realise

that its policy is futile . I think even today the

statement has been made that South Africa is the

of the Commonwealth. Countries which used to support

the racial policies of South Africa have turned against

them and condemned them, and we believe that this is

because of the mounting pressure the African National 15

Congress continues to bring.

KENNEDY Ji Mr. Mandela, assuming you were

wrong in your beliefs , do you visualise any future action

on behalf of the Government, by the Government?— Well ,

my lord . . . 20

Because I think the evidence suggests that you

could not expect the Government to soften in its views.

Have you any future plans in that event?— No, my lord.

I don't think that the Congress has ever believed that

its policy of pressure would ultimately f a i l . The Con- 25

gress, of course, does not expect that one single push

to coerce the Government to change its policy will suc-

ceed; the Congress expects that over a period, a s a

result of a repetition of these pressures, together with

world opinion, that the Government notwithstanding its 3°

attitude of ruling Africans with an iron hand, that not-

withstanding that, the methods which we are using will

bring about a realisation of our aspirations.

MR. HOEXTER; Mr. Mandela, whether or not 35

15960. N,R.MANDELA

there would be success ultimately, one thing is clear,

is it not, and that is that the African National Congress

held the view, and propagated the view, that in resisting

pressure by the Congress Movement the ruling class, the

Government, would not hesitate to retaliate - would not

hesitate to use violence and armed force against the

Congress movement?— Yes? the Congress was of that view,

my lords. We did expect force to be used, as far as the

Government is concerned, but as far as we are concerned

we took the precautions to ensure that that violence will

not come from our side.

BEKKBB J: What vie re those precautions?-- Well ,

my lord, for example in 1952 when we lodged the Defiance

Campaign, and secondly, my lord, you will notice that we

frequently use 'stay at home' not 'strike' in the ordinary

sense. Now, my lord, in a strike what is usually done is

to withdraw workers from a particular industry and then

have pickets to prevent the people from working in those

industries which are boycotted. But the Congress theory

that to have pickets might attract police violence, we

deliberately decided to use 'stay at home' where people

are asked to remain in their houses.

KENNEDY Js Supposing didn't stay in their

houses?— Well, my lord, we frequently speak to people

and tell them . . .

Can any organisation expect a hundred per-

cent unanimity of action by the people, the majority of

which might stay at home?— Well, there may be instances

when people do not behave in the manner in which we

have asked them to behave . . .

Yes, one must be realistic?— I understand.

15961 IT .R . M/JDELA

We are realistic , ray lord . . . . 5

You don't get a hundred percent of the people

who are with you?— That is quite correct, my lord.

Well , then, what is the attitude of the Con-

gress towards those people who do not agree with the

policy of Congress?— Except that in our experience we

find that people follow and agree with the policy of

non-violence. I have referred to the question of the

Defiance Campaign, my lord.

I 'm not talking about that; I 'm talking about

your question of pickets. Supposing you got 10 ,000

people v/ho agree with you and 2,000 people who say : "We

are not going to stay at home, we are going to work" -

what did you expect?— Well , my lord, in the first place

we have not had that experience; we have not had people,

when we say 'We are calling a stay at home' saying "No,

we are going to go and picket". We haven't had that

experience, my lord.

Have you had no picketing at all?— Not in

the s ense of people going to stand at the factories and

stopping people, but in 1950, my lord, there were peo- 25

pie, as people who had gone to work were coming back -

there were people who congregated at the station at

Orlando. Now, whether those people were going to assault

those who were returning from work, I don't know, but

there were people who congregated - - but we emphasised

on our side the fact that we are running the campaign

as a non-violent campaign, and we went further and said

to our foil overs, " look, there must be no intimidation. . . "

Yes, I only took this point, because you

yourself used the question of piclets. Now, as I under- 35

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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