THEFOURDHARMASOFG ~ O P Ch6gyamTrungpa,Rinpoche Publishedby VajradhatuPublications 1345SpruceStreet Boulder,Colorado80302 Thismaterialisavailableinalimitedof400copiesonly,andnogeneralpublicationis madeorintended.Commonlawcopyrightisreserved byChtlgyamTrungpa,Rinpoche.Nopartofthismater-ialmaybereproducedorpublishedinanyform,nor maythismaterialbedistributedtopersonsother thanthosewhohavebeenauthorizedbyChtlgyamTrungpa, Rinpoche,ortheVajradhatuEducationOfficetore-ceiveit. THEFOURDHARMASOFGAMPOPA AseminargivenatKarme-Choling,Julyi975. by CHtlGYAMTRUNGPA,RINPOCHE TalkOne: TalkTwo: CONTENTS FOLLOWINGTHEDHARMA Firstdharma:follo:wingthedharma. Senseofseparationfromteachings. Surrendering,dissolvingthe-journey. Truthbasedonourlivingsituation, whatwearewillingtoface. AGGRESSION Differencebetweencommitmenttodharma andbecomingcompletelyidentifiedwith it.Separationfromdharmaspringing fromimmenseaggression.Firststep: knowingoneself,understandingnature ofone'sownaggression.Humor,realiz-ingjokeisonyou,basisoffollowing one'smindaccordingtothe-dharma. TalkThree:SUCCESSONTHEPATH TalkFour: Seconddharma:successonthepath. Renunciation:withtrueunderstandingof suffering, becomeconfirmation, spokesmanforyou.Toactualizeunity betweenyouanddharmarequiresdiscipline. Meditationpractice.Losingyour arrogance,chauvinism.Boredomand resentment.'Relatingwithemotions. TRANSCENDINGCONFUSION Thirddharma:clarifyingconfusion. Confusionasthedesireforgreater happiness.Searchforfreedomvs.search forhappiness.Unconditional, freedomwhichtranscendsbothpleasureand pain.Seeingclearlyasfinalsteptowards transcendence.Relationbetweenclear seeingandpain. Page 1 13 24 34 TalkFive: TalkSix: Page DISCIPLINE Confidenceandloneliness.Threefold discipline:(1)austerity(2)absorption (3)knowledge.Austerityasbeing immovableinone'ssanity,beingopen tooneselfandothers.Absorptionas completestateofnonaggressionwhich allowsremindersofallkindstopresent themselves.Knowledgeasseeingthrough emoiionsandpreconcepti0ns.Discipline astheactualmechanismoftranscending confusion. WISDOM Fourthdharma:confusionbeingtransformed intowisdom.Threefoldwisdom:(1)asa productoflearningandcollectionof experiences(2)genuineinsight(3)final wisdom,theproductofunlearning.Three levelsofuitimatewisdom:(1)spontaneous/ calculatingmind(2)manifestationinworld asgentlenessandnonaggression(3)clear seeing.Panicasopen-mindedleapvs.petty territoriality.Emotionsaspartofclarity. 47 56 TALK1#1"FOLLOWINGTHEDHARMA" Welcome,everY.body.We'regoingtodiscuss followingthebuddhistpathfromthepointofview ofpersonalsurrendering.Thisideaisnotparticularly new--andnotparticularlyarchaiceither,forthat matter.Itistheusualongoingprocessconstantly happeningwithanybodywhofollowsthetradition, discipline.Wearenottalkingofdogma, ofhow apersoncantakeajourneyalong.thepath,onthe path,andatthesametimehowthetravelercanbe-comenotraveler. Atthebeginningofyourjourneyyouhavea verysolid,individualisticstyle,basedonpassions andaggressions,all. kindsofneurosesofego.But youwalkalongthepath,youbecomesmallerand Youdissolveintothepathandyoubecomepartofthe ratherthanatraveleronit.That.isthepoint weareraisinghere--howtounderstandthepossibility onceyouhavereachedsomeenlightened ... youcin'twatchyourownburial.It'simpossible. Toalotofpeoplethatmaybedisappointingbecause theywouldlikeproof;theywouldliketoattend thegraduationceremony;theywouldliketohave credentialstoreinforcetheirexistence.ButsQme-howsuchaconceptdoesnotapplyanymore . ..1-Themainworkingbasis. ofthebuddhistpathis thesheddingofego.Whenwetalkaboutego,weare talkingpurelyofego-centeredego,egoasterritori-ality--defendingyourownterritoryortryingto conquerfurtherterritories.Wearenottalkingin termsofattainingablissfuleuphoricstate,some kindofre-affirmationofyourselfwhichmakesyoulook goodandfeelgood,arevelationfromabove,orany-thinglikethat.Wearetalkingaboutdissolvingthe journey.That'sthemainpoint. ThefourdharmasofGampopaareanimportant themethroughoutthebuddhisttradition,andparticularly intheKagyu,orcontemplative1traditionofTibetan buddhism.ThefirstofthefourdharmasofGampopa isfollowingone'smindaccordingtothedharma;the secondisthedharmapracticebecomingthethe third.istha; followingthepath,confusionis transcended;andthelastoneisthatconfusionis alsotransformedintowisdom.Today,Iwouldlike todiscussthefirstone--one'smindfollowingthe dharma. Whenwediscussourselvesandqurspiritualjourney, wetendtohavetheattitudethatthedharma,orthe teaching,isseparatefromus.Ourusualunderstand-ingisthatwearejoiningachurchorbecominga followerofsomethingorother,somebodyorother, thatwearebecominga.memberofaclub.It'slike joiningapoliticalparty.Wejoinaparty,welearn tospeakitslanguage,welearnitsparticular slogans.Butthatapproachisamisunderstandingof spiritualdiscipline.Ifwetrytojoin spiritual clubandfollowtheappropriateregulations andrules,thatautomaticallymakesouregobigger. Dogmahasitsowncredentials,italreadyhasitsown power.followingdogma,wearemergingourlittle egosintobiggeregos,andthereisadangerofbecom-ingHitler,Mussolini,orMaoTseTung,forthat matter. Sofollowingthedharmaisnotsigningyourname onthedottedlineand ofamovement--apoliticalmovementorspiritualmovement.Joining acommunitydoesn'tmeanyouhavebecomeabuddhist orthatyouhavebecomeameditator.Youcan'tbe-comeabuddhistpractitionerthatway.Alotof peopletrytodothatandtheyfinditextremely rewarding--fromahypocriticalpointofview. - 2.. Itiseasyt6 yourheadandputoriyourrobeand weartheclubbadgeandspeaktheright be-causeyoudon'thavetogiveupanything--youjust jointhecrowd,whichisextremelysimple,veryeasy todo.Butwe.arenottalkinginthoseterms.In thiscase,there'sactuallyarelationshipbetween thedharmaandyourself. Dharmaliterallymeans"truth"or'""norm."Itis aparticularwayofthinking,awayofviewingthe worldwhichisnotaconceptbutexperience..This particulartruthisverypainfultruth--usuallytruths are.Itringsthesoun4ofreality,whichcomestoo closetohome.Webecomecompletelyembarrassed whenwebegintohearthetruth.Itiswrongto thinkthatthetruthis_goingtosoundfantastic andbeautiful,likeaflutesolo.Thetruthis actuallythunderbolt.Itwakesyouupand makesyouthinktwicewhetheryoushouldstayirtthe rainormoveintothehouse.Provocative.The soundofthundercouldbeniceandfriendlyorit couldbeagreathassle.Thewholethingdepends onyourlivingsituation.Ifyou'recampingoutside withoutatentandyoubegintohearthunder,you feelthreatened.'Youfeelterriblebecauseyouare exposedandyouhavetomoveunderatreeorinto acave--somekindofroofisneeded.Whereasinthe opposite inwhichyoualreadyhavearoof orashelter,whenyoubegintohearthunderit soundsgreat,fantastic.Andyoucanlistentothe. raindropsaswell.Sothebasicquestionis--whois actuallylisteningtothetruth?Whatishissituation? And,infact,whatistruth? Atthispointwecould.sayquiteclearlythat truthisaboutyou.Itisnotaboutcelestial beingsdescendingonyou,orthegoldenageof Martians.Thetruthisaboutyou,yourexistence,your expe.rience.It'saboutyou.Hearingthetruthof dharmaandbecoming_partoftheaharmaiswilling tofaceyourself,.tobeginwith.Itmaybedisturbing orencouraging--however,that'sit. Followingthedharmadoesn'tmeango1ngalong withaparticularprescriptionandtakingyour. medicationeveryday.Insteadit'sabasiccommitment totheteaching,whichmeansyourself.You.could getouttheorganization,youcouldgetoutofthe But.thatdoesn'tmeanyouactuallyhave managedtostepoutofthedharma.Thedharmais alwaysyou.Youarealwaysgoingtohavethe dharmaofyou,yourdharma.Yourtruth,yourfacts andfigures,yourreality,arealways - 3-cantrytoescape.realitybyrecrea.tingthedifferent seasons--inthewintertheycangotoFlorida;inthe summertheycangouptothemountains.Butit'snot assimpleasthat.Realityisinescapable. Thetruthaboutyouhasdifferentfacets,obviously: "Whatisthistruthaboutme?Whatisthattruthabout me?"Youmightthinkyouaremadeoutof somegoodthingsandsomebadthings.Sometimesyou feelbadandsometimesgood.Andyouseemtobesurviving) youdon'tgetanynewideas,suchasdestroy-ingyourselfordoingsomethingunreasonable.Other-wisethingsareokay.Itmaybemonotonous,butthere areupsanddownsaswell.However,thatkindof thinkingisnotquiteenough.Regularityisnotthe point;experienceisthepoint.Fundamentally,every oneofusfeelsextremelyinsecure.Youcouldhave lotsofmoney,lotsofbackground,education, friends,resources, butnoneofthatis goingtomakeanydifferencetoyoursecurity.The moreweseek.security,themoreinsecuritythatcreates. Itconstantlyhappensthatway. Basicallyyouareincompetentaboutlife.You couldacorporatepresidentorthelordofthe universe--youcouldbeanything--butbecauseofthe styleinwhichyouoperateyourlife,_ becauseofthe .viewsyouhaveaboutyouself,youareincompetent andyoufeelthreatened.Youcouldplaceblameon all'kindsofpeople allkindsofsituations,but thosearejustexcuses.There'ssomethingfundamentally threateningandinsecuretakingplaceallthetime. Something'snotquiteassolidaswewouldlikeit tobe,soweneedlotsofreassurance--somephilosophyJ someidea,somekindofbackingfromthe-worldof comfort,theworldofcompanionship.Thereisalways hollowness,anemptinesstakingplaceinusalways. Thatisourusualsituation.Basicallywefeelwe arebrokeandwehaveapovertymentality.Veryfew peopleliketofacethat,butit'sthefirsttruth, oneoftheveryvaluabletruthstoface.I.tisnot reallypleasantandit'snotevenhelpful,forthat matter.Butmaybeitsunhelpfulnessishelpful. There'salwaysthatpossibility. Outofthatinsecuritywecomeupwithalotof strategies,plansofallkinds.Wetrytocombat thisinsecuritybymeansofdrugs,politics,philosophy, .religion,friends.Everybodyhastriedsomething.c Andatthispoint,inthisworld,everybodyhadtried everything. nothing nothingthathasn't beentried.Absolutely.nothing.We'verunoutof - 4-materialcompletely.Ne.verthelesswesti.llgoon. Webegintoborroweach ideas,tojuggle themaround."Have.you-triedthat?Ihaven't..I woul_dliketotry' yo.urs..He:. hastriedsomethingelse, butIhaven't,soI'lltr.yhis.Or-let .ustryhis together.'.'Wekeepexchangingideas.Butthe_whole thingbecomesextremelydepressing,.verypathetic. r-t' sliketellingeachot-herstoriesinaof insomniainadormitory.Youarenotintereste.d in.thestory;butyouwanttobeoccupiedbecauseyou can'tasleep.ThingshavegottenthatQad, actually.Butitisallexperience."It'sdharma, -initsownway,truth. What'ssosacredaboutthat?Wheredoessacredness comein?Itdoesn't theformofreligion,as asaviornotion.The isitstruthfulness. It'strue,thereforesacred. Soitcouldbe secularbutstillsacred.Atthebeginningthattruth isunpleasantandverydisturbing, .andabsolutelyuse-lessinsomeway.Youmightsay':.'"Ialready. know aboutmyself.I'vebeenstudyingmyselfforyears,thirtyyears,fortyyears,fiftyyears. Twentyyearsofmy_lifeIhavespentonthissame_old thing_,againandagain.Sote 11ussomethingnew." (Laughter.)Butthereisn'tanythingnew.Wehave exploredallthespaceonthisearth,externallyand internally.There'snoShangri-la.Weknowthe wholeearthinchbyinch,andwehaveexploredall ofhumanbehaviorinitsroughform.Weknowall thealternatives,allthetricksthatweplayon ourselves.Whenanybodydiscoversanew aooutit,publicizesitandsellsit, soweknoweverythi_ng.Thewholeworldisgett:i,.ng tobeagiganticbazaar,asupermarket,ashopping center. "Thereis.alotoftruthinthat,butwhere' s thequalityofpathin.it?"youmighta:Sk.Butif wedon'tfacewhatweareexperiencing,there's nopath . Itmaybea- drag,butyoumustbewilling tofaceandactuallygiveintowhatishappening. Nobody'sgoingtocomeupwitha fatcheckforyou Atthispoint,believinginmiraclesisan Thereisgreatroom ourmindsto.open, give,facefacts--literallytofacethefacts:the facts.ofreality,factofpain,factsofboredom.You mightsayyou'vedonethatalready,butrdon'tbelieve it.Wehaven'tquitedoneitcomplet'elyor- 5.. enough..Thetruthofthematteristhatyoustillhaven't facedfcts.Becausejouarehere,it meansyouarestill lookingforapossiblealternative.Ifyouhadalready understoodthewholething,youwouldn'tbe Let's faceeventhat. Soourworld,thisparticularworld,ourdharma, needstobeacknowledgedandneedsimmense justaone-shotdeal.It'sverytricky actuallywhentalkaboutsurrendering.youwouldliketodouble-crossthesurrendering:"If Isurrender,willIgetsomethingback?IfIsurrender,I willbe.worthyofit.I'll beacknowledged.Inthe endIwillbethewinnerinsomesense."Thewhole thinggetsverycomplicated.Thatisprecisely thes_ymptomofone'smindnotfollowingthedharma butJ rather,behavinginanadharmicway."A"is anegative prefix, soadharmaisnon-dharma,nodharma, anti-truth,false.Withoutthisfirstdharma,under-standingthetruthandourrelationshiptothetruth, wecouldnotgofurther.Withoutthisfoundation, theotherdharmaswouldbetooabstractandtoo advanced. SothefirstdharmaofGampopa,followingone's mindaccordingtothedharma,isthefirststepon thepath.Finallyyouandr,ourworldmeetandare introducedtooneanother: 1MynameisMr.World, Mr.Adharma."'.'"Pleasedtomeetyou."Youshakehands andactuallybegintogivein.You're to acceptyourworld.Youhaveneverdonethatbefore. Eitheryou'vebeentoosneaky,tooarrogant,too aggressive,toopassionateortoojealous.Some-thingispreventingyoufromactuallymeetingyour world,letaloneattemptinganythingasgreatas theideaofenlightenment.Youhaven'treallymet ycurselfproperly,oryourworld,whichisyourself. "I"isyou,"am"isyourworld.Youhavenevermet thatparticularworld.Andfacingthefact--"!am"--youandyour.world--isveryimportant.Itmakesyou lessblind andlessmute.Otherwiseyouarehighly blindandhighlydumb.Youusuallydon'tbehaveas yourbodytellsyoutobehave,butratheryour mindbehavesforbody.Soyoufindyourselfbe-cominga notactuallypayingattentiontowhat youaredoing,whatyouareseeing,whatyouare experiencing.Youare. reallyor seeinganythingatYourwholeworldisjusta roughguess,apreconceptionwhichkeepsyougoing. Whensomebodytellsyouthatyourpreconceptionis notvalid,thenyoubegintobreakdownandyour computersystemgoescompletely Youare - 6-beingverynumb,bewildered.Yousimplydon'twant tofacethetruth. Question:Myquestionisaboutthefirstpartof yourtalk,abouthowwearejoiningthecluband alsobeingisolatedinourseeking.Howdowejoin theclubandnotjointheclub? Rinpoche:Areyoufamiliarwiththebuddhistterm, "sangha?"Itisagroupofpractitioners, andit alsomeansrefugees,insomesense,peoplewhohave lefttheirsecurity,theirhomeland.Theyhappened togettogetherbecauseofacommonsituation, ratherthanbecauseofamovementtakingplace.The ideaofsanghaisthatyouhaveasenseofstanding onyourownfeet--andsomebodyelseis on hisownfeetaswell.Soyoufindalotofpeople whoarealone,lonely.Andsanghaisalotoflonely peopletogetherwhoareessentiallyontheirown. They amutualinterestratherthanbeingsaved bytheflock,particularly.It'saquestionof sharingexperiencewitheachother,butnotbeing caughtinthesecurityofthepartyline. It'slikethewaywegrowup.Wehaveourown parents;we'vecomeintotheworldindividually, privately,sotospeak.Wewerebornindifferent placesandnowwebegintohangouttogether.We haveourownhearts;wehaveourownbrains.Webegin toeatt9getherandlivet6gether,but:nevertheless weareindividuals.Wehavetogrowinourownway: nobodycanmakeyousixteenyearsold.Youhave .gonethroughthatalready. Q:Youweretalkingoftheegoanditsrelationship totheouterenvironment--asbestasIwasableto understandit--intermsthatwereinkeepingwith atraditionalbuddhistunderstandingoftherelation-shipbetweentheindividualandtheouterenviron-ment.Doesthatprocessofsurrenderingholdthrough timeordoesitalterintermsofthetimeframein whichwefindourselves?Theparticularreference inthatinstanceistotheimplicationsofthe intellectualunderstandingoftherelationship betweenconciousnessandtechnologicalextensionof thatconsciousness,BuckministerFuller'sandGregory Bateson'sintellectualunderstanding,cybernetic understanding,ofthepossibilityofarrivingata momentoftranscendingwhatwasthehumancondition throughanunderstandingoftherelationshipbetween technologyandconciousnessitself--- 7-R:Idon'tseeanypaTticularproblems,sir.The questioniswhetherwearewith ourselvestobegin with.Iwearenotwith thenanycollectingof furtherunderstandingdoesn'thelp--itwilltakeus away.If wearewithourselves,andableactually torelatewithour of stateofmind, thenatechnological orscientificdiscovery, whateveritmaybe,ispartofthatcosmictruth. There'sproblemwithit,absolutelynoproblem. Q:Ididn'tthinktherewasaproblem,butthe technologicalrealityofmilieu,theouterenv.iron-. ment,altersthroughtime, andthetraditionalbuddhist viewofego'sresponsetoanouterenvironmental conditionwhichelucidating,stemsfrom atotallydifferenttechnologicalenvironmental conditionthanthatinwhichwefindourselves.I thatrelationshipdoesnotalterthroughtime, perhapswemaybeatthevergeoftherealization ofour thatislooselytermed--R:Well,yousee,ifGregoryBatesonwerehere .. Q:Ishehere? R:He.' snothere,butsupposinghewerehere. Q:Yeah,thatwouldbe . R:Uh. Q:Enlightening.(Laughter.) R:HewasinBouxderlastyearandwehadalot ofchatsaboutthat,actually.It'squiteinteresting. Butif hewer.f?here,hewouldbeinthesametent asyouare. thetimesituation.There'sno problem.Imean,timedoesnotcomeasaconcept. Timecomesastime.ThesunisintheWestnow asfarasthisparticularworldisconcerned--we a.llknowthat.MaybepeoplefromtheEastorthe Southwoulddescribeit quitedifferently,butas farasweare.concerned,inthispartoftheworld thesuninistheWest.Ithinkexperienceismore importantthanpossibilites.Possibilitiescome fromexperience--experientia'lpossibilities.So, astheZenmastersays:"WhenIeat,Ieat;whenI sleep,I Q:I'mnotentirelysurewe'vereachedanaccord, butthankyou. R:You'rewelcome. - 8.. Q:Irelatedverystronglytoyourstatementthat wearehere wearestilllookingforsomething--sostrongly,infact,thatI'mleavinginthemorning. (Laughter.)ThereasonI'mleavinghastodowith myfeelingthatthisformeistheultimateegotrip. The.reasonwearenotsurroundedbytenmillion otherpeopleisbecausethere.issomethingwhich preventsyourmessagefromreachingthelargemasses ofpeople.Ifeelthatformethisisanintellectual andspiritualegotrip,andIdon'tseehowthis canbegeneralizedtotheworld. R:That'saveryinterestingreaction.Well,you canleavetomorrow.Idon'tseeanyproblemswith that.ButIdon'tthinkit'saquestionofhowwe canrelatethetruthtothepublic,howwecangear itfor.themassmedia.Thetruthhastobeindividual. If youhavereactedthatwaytowhatIhavetosay, thenobviouslysomethinghasclickedinyou.So infact,asfarasI'myouarepartof themess. Q:Iagree. R:Sogoodbye.(Laughter.)Drivecarefully. Q:Youspokeaboutmyrelationshiptotruth.I'm soaccustomedtonotseeingthis,thatIwonderhow Icanlearntoseemyrelationshiptotruthinany givenmoment. R:aninterestingpoint.Don'taskme. Insuchsituations,lookintoyourself.Whereisthe barrier?Whereistheobstacle?Ifyoubegintofind thebarrierorobstacle,thenyouhavealreadyreached somekindofunderstanding.Workwiththat. Q:Well,maybeI'mbeingtoogeneral,butIfeel thatthatbarrierismyego,whichisthecasewith everybody. R:Sure,butyouhaveyourpersonalego,too.So youmightbegeneralizingtoomuchinyourmind. Yourparticularstyleisdistinctlydifferentthan anybodyelse's,soyouhaveyourownworld.The questiontoaskishowthatquestioncarneabout.Is itbecauseyouwantsomekindofresponse,somekind ofremedy,oristhissimplyapersonalexperience ofuncertainty?Onceyouactuallybegintobeable tofindoutwhoisthequestionerandwherethe problemarises,thenthereisnoproblem.Tryharder--butnottoohard. - 9-Q:Youspokeabouttheworldbecominglikeasuper-market,thatwheneversomeonegetsanewtrick,he writesabookaboutit.ButTheTibetanBookofthe Dead--onthefirstday,theblueorwhatever,you know--thatseemsjustastrickyasalltherest.It doesn'tmakeanysensetome.IsupposeIhaveto believeit. R:I thinkyouhavetobelieveinit,parti-cularly.It.shouldbeexperience. Q:Butitseemsthatstudyingthedharmabecomes justreading,sometimes.Youknow,afteryousit forawhile,youthink:"NowI'mintothedharmaso I'llreadthesebooks."Icametothisseminarwith thebook,TheJewelOrnamentofLiberation,because itwas"TheFourDharmasofGampopa."But itdoesn'tmakeanysensetome;itjustseems1;ke dogma,beliefs,tricks.Ican!trelateittomyown experience. R:Maybeyou'rebeingtootrickywithyourself. Yousee,youcouldcreateallkindsofchain outsmartingsomebody'sprojectconstantly.Butit finallybouncesbackonyou.Ifyou'retryingto outsmarteverybody,itfinallybouncesbackonyou, whichisnotverypleasant.Andeventhenitseems tobecomeatrick,sortofadungeon. Q:Yousaynottooutsmarteverybody,butthen there'sthistrickandthere'sthattrick--R:That'swhatyouthinkyouhavedoneratherthan whatyouactuallycanachieve.Inotherwords,we thinkweareoutsmartingourselves--andthenfinally weinsmartourselves.(Laughter.) Q:Thatdoesn'thelpmeatall,butI'llthinkaboutit. R:Well,I.thinkthatwillhelp. Q:Inthelongrun? R:Atleastinthelongrun.Yeah.Thepointis thatwehaven'treallycaughtupwithourselvesenough. Thatistheproblem. Q:Caughtup.(Pause.JI thattomean ifIjustcontinuetoexperiencereality,then at pointallthosebookswillmakesensetome andIwillbeablereadthem.Ican'treadthemnow. - 10-R:It'snotthebooksthatshouldmakesensetoyou. Thatshouldn'tbeyourproject,particularly.But if whatyouaremakessensetoyou,inspiteof beingwithoutego,thenbooksbecomepurelyconfirmation. Q:Inresponsetoapreviousquestion,yousaid totryharderbut....nottoohard.What'stoohard? R:It'stryingtocollecttoomuchinformation,too manytricks.Totryhardisasortofleap.Butif youtrycompletelyhard,thenyou actuallytake aleapbutyouplanfurther:"IfIleapwhat's goingtohappenbeyondthecliff?"Andprobablyyou putupwirenettingandallkindsofthingsunder-neath--blankets.That'stryingtohard. Q:Thisinsecuritythateverybody'stryingtocqver .up--isitpossiblethatonceonegotovertheshock ofnobodybeinghome,it wouldbeabasisforemptiness? R:Ithinkso. nessisathome. Butthenthetroubleisthatempti-iouhavetothinkaboutthat. Q:WhenIb"egintofacethetruthaboutmyself,what Igetisthetruthaboutmyselfplusguiltabout that.HowdoIacceptthetruthaboutmyselfwithout gettinganyextras?(Laughter.) R:Ithinkyouneedmoresurrendering.Andit soundsliketoomuchreligion. Q:Ididn'tunderstandthat. R:Toomuchreligion? Q:Yeah,IheardwhatyousaidbutIdidn'tunder-standit. R:Well,toomanyreligiousofgoodand evil.Toomuchwhichgoesalongwiththat. Q:Areyousayingthatwearewhatwesee,soto speak,orthatwearewhatwehear?there'sa simultaneityofexperienceandwhatwe are? R:Prettymuchso,butlet'snotmakethatintri party-linelanguage. Q:Itcouldbecomeawhirlwhindatthatpoint. R:Yeah.Wearehere.Definitely.Somepeople trynottobeherebuttheyarestillhere.Even thatdoesn'thelp--theyhappentobehere. - 11-Q:Thankyou. R:Ithinkmaybeshouldcloseatthispoint .. Dinnerisbeingroasted,ormaybetoasted.(Laughter.) Bytheway,beforeyouleaveI'dliketo placedefiniteemphasisonthesittingpracticeof meditationduringthisseminar.Ifyoujustgoback withconcepts,ideas,quitepossiblywe'rejust complicatirtgthingsratherthancreatinganykindof Therefore,actuallycombiningsitting meditationwithdiscussionandtalkandexperience wouldhelpalot.Also,ourcommunityhereislarge1y basedoncontemplativediscipline,andthecommunity wouldliketosharewhattheyareexperiencing herewithyou.SoIwouldstronglyencourageyou tojoininthesittingpractice. - 12-TALK112"AGGRESSION" Inbindingourmindtothedharma,weare abletorealizetheconfusionsthattakeplacein ourlifeandtheamountofsufferingcreatedfrom ourlifesituation.Butwearestillunableto acceptthetruthcompletely.Sowehavetobecome completelyidentifiedwiththedharma,whichis muchmorethanbelievinginsomething,muchmore thantakingarandomsteptowardscommitment. There'satremendousdifferencebetweencommitment tothedharmaandactuallybecomingpartofthe Takingasteptowardsithassomething todowithmakingdecisions,butbecomingcompletely committedismorethanadecision--it'sleapingoff acliff.Thewholethingdependsonasenseof trust.Somesympathy,andtrust,andasenseof warmthneedtobe oneself,tobegin with,andtoothersasonedevelopssympathyto onesel;f .:rtneedstobebeyondtheaggression level. One obstaclestoone'smindbeingable togo withorbecomepartothednarmais yoursenseofseparation;fTomit)obvious-ly.That senseofseparationcomes;fromimmenseaggression, - 13-holdingback,andthesenseoffightorstruggle . . You'rereadytowagewarwithyourworld.Although youmightregardyourenemyasarealexperience--dealingwithanenemyandafight--theenemy isnotyou.Soyouconstantlyhaveasenseof separationbetw}.enyourselfandother. Thereareseveralwaysofbecomingemotionally involvedwiththedharma.Youmaybeinspiredby afascinationwiththeteachingsorbythefascina-tionoffriendswhoareinvolvedintheteachings, orbyacertaintruththatitspeaks.Butinspira-tiondoesn'tseemtobeenough.Ifgrassisgreen, greenisgrassatthesametime.Youhavetobe soakedcompletelyindharma,sothatthere'sno separationbetweenthegreennessofthegrassand thegrassitself.Youhavetobecompletelysoaked init,whichrequiresa1otofsympathy,anda lovingattitude.Wheneverthere'sanythefaintestresentmentsomeaspectofanemployee,thenatureofwork,theatmosphereatlarge,thechangeofseason, toomanyflies--yousay,"Thisisnotreally resentment,thisisjustirritation."Sureit's irritation,butthatisaformofresentment.We havecreatedagiganticcastironfortification. Andeventhroughwehaveparticularirritationssuch asflies,mosquitoes,orwhatever,wealsoexpress aconstantsenseofresentmentintheformof immenseaggression.Generallywhathashappened, particularlyintheWest,isthatwehave opedorgrownupinaworldthatisagigantic marketplace.Youcanbargainyourwayoutand bargainyourwayin.Ifsomebody'scheatingyou, youcanbargainwithhimoryoucangotothe stqreandbuythesamethingcheaper.Everythingthat wedoinourlifeisbusinesslikebecausewearetrained thatway.Wefeelthatif wepayforsomethingwe shouldgetourmoney'sworth.Weoperatewithan immensebusinessmentalityallthetime. Atthesametime;wealsohave. asenseofwar-fare--who'sgoingtowinthewar?Thatstateof warfarebecomesanaturalongoingprocess.Need-lesstosay,alotoftheconflictthattakes placeinthisworldisnot.basedon)justasimple disagreementormisunderstanding--ouraggression actuallycreatedtheproblem.Thisaggressioncomesimmense,andittakesallkindsofforms--sometimesverycontrolledandsedate,sometimes veryactiveandarticulated.Sometimesweeven becomevictimsofourownaggression.Whenwetry - 14-tobounceonsomebody itbouncesbackonus aswell.Webegintohurtourselves,tomakelife. miserable.Theoppositeofthatisnotsomuch thatweshouldreformcompletelyandbecomea peacefulperson.Thatisn'tparticularly theidea.Theideaistounderstarid.thatparticular typeofaggressionandtoworkalongwithitin termsofourpractice.Itisaninspirationto relatewiththedharma. ThefirstdharmaofGampopaisknowing self.Thatseemstobe-themeaningofone'smind goingalongwiththedharma.One'smindbeginsto followthatparticularpattern.You'rewillingto experienceyourselftoacknowledgehowmuchtime youwastethrough-thispartidilarstyleofaggres-sion.'Youmightsaythatacknowledgingthatisnot quiteenough.Butwemoretotalkabout youdon'tleave.Butfiist._thingsfirst;they say,Andthatfirstthingistoseewhat'swrong withus.Thenwecanlookfurther--whattypeof wrongnessdowehave?Then--whatcanwedoabout it?Howcanwecureit?That'sthegeneralapproach. Thestepswearefollowinginthiscasearethe fourdharmasofGampopa.Thefirstoneisfollowing one'smindaccordingtothedharma.Itisactually acknowledgingourselves9understandingthenature ofsamsaraandthenatureofourpainandouragres-sion--whichisveryrealandverypersonal.We've beenliyingwithourselvesallourlife(andwill befortherestofourlife).Soweknow selvesbetterthananybodyelse.There'sno pointinpretendingthatnothinghappened, thing'sWeknowthat'snotquitetrue. Ifyouthinkthatyourwholepast, futureandpresent--isgreat.Ithinkyou'reunder somekindofhyponosisortripofego.You're kiddingyourself,foolingyourself.That'savery seriousmatter.Itisworththinkingabout.So inthefirstdharmaofGampopaweare ourselves.Wearenottryingtofindawaytocure ourselves,necessarily.Butwearetryingtofind outwhereweare--thewayandstyleinwhichweare thereasonweendedupinthisparticu-lariail,howoursituationcameabout.Andonce webegintoknowthat,webegintoknowlotsof truths,lotsofdharmas. Butif welookatthingsfromanarrogantas wellasanaggressiveapProach,wemaynotbeable tounderstandanythingatall.Wemightsay: 15-"Everything'sokay,there'snothingtoworryabout. Wedon'thavetolistentothisparticularbull-shit."Butthatisthevoiceofouraggression. Aggressioncouldbehighlyarticulateandveryin-tellectual.orextremelyimpulsiveand.emotional. lttakesallkindsofforms.It'snotjustone thing--purelyanemotion.Andit'snotasif you're tellingsomebody:"Justcalmdownandtakea.rest. Everything'sgoingtobeokay."It'snotassimple asthat.Itisverysubtle.It'sveryhardto discoverourselves.Infact,theparticulartype ofaggressionwearetalkingaboutisverydifficult tountilwehavecompletelyovercomethe basicnatureofego.Butatleastwecanmake earlydiscoveriesothecrudeaspectofit. Asfarasthispresentsituationofthe worldofambitionisconcerned,aggressionseems tpbe.asuccess.Aggressionmadetheworld,and wealsohaveproductsofaggression:efficiency, richness,greatlearning.Everythinghasbecome theproductofaggression--notonlytheproductbut alsotheseed.Weareconstantlyinvolvedinan ongoingchainreactionofaggressionanditsre-sults,whichcreatesseeds of: moreaggression. Youcan'tbuyanautomobileif younevercheck whereyoubuythesparepartsyoumightneedlater on.Andif you'rebuyingaforeigncar,it'smore difficultbecausetheymighthavetoshipthem fromoverseas.Wewouldliketomakesureweknow wherecangetspareparts .. It'sexactlysamewithaggression.We tohavespare partsavailableif webreak Wehaveallkinds ofreservesupplies--newtactics,new storedinourmindsallthetime.Wesay:"Idon't havetousethisatthispoint,butImightneedit lateron.BeforeIusemycapital,maybeIshould experimentwithsmallthinkingtogetmyposition withoutspendingcapital.Ifworsecomestoworse, Iwillstrike." Whetheryouareakind-mannered,mild-mannered oraggressively-manneredperson,itisexactlythe same.Allthetimethereisthisbigbarrier,which createsobstaclestounderstanding.There'sabig barrier,abigfence,betweendharmaandus,which preventsusfromactuallyclickingorcommunicating. Thatseemstobethebasicpoint:Inordertobe-comeafollowerofthedharma,onehastobecome nonaggressive,beyondaggression.Inorder.todo that,therehastobesomekindofwarmthinone-self,gentlenesstooneself,whichisknownas - 16-maitri,andtherehastobegreatergentlenessto others,whichisknownaskarunaorcompassion. Whenwebegintomakeaconnectionto.dharma,we arewillingtoopenourgates,toteardownour walls.Thenforthefirsttimewebeginto realizethatthejokehasbeerionusallthetime. Accumulatingammunitionandbuildingfenceafter fencewasourtripr t h e r ~ t h n somethingactually havingtakenplace.Wehavewastedsomuchofourenergy andeconomyonthattrip.Whenwebegintorealize thejokewasonusandcreatedbyus,thenweare actuallyfollowingourmindsaccordingtothedharma. Naturallyjthatdiscoverygoesalongwitha senseofhumor.It'snotanotherresentmentat all.Thatwouidbetheoppositedirection--that youwanttokillthepersonplayingjokesonyou (whichisyours!)andkeepgoingallthetime. Question:Youspokeagainstaggression,butdon't youthinkthatsometimestheenergyofaggression canproduceamoreharmonioussituation? Rinpoche:Well,Ithinkit'saquestionofwhat kindofaggressionwearetalkingabout.Aggression withstupidityandconfusionisself-destructive. It'slikeagedwineturningtovinegarasopposed toagedwine. Q:Willyouspeakalittleaboutaggressionahd change,bringingaboutchangeinourlivesina nonaggressiveway? R:Well,yousee,~ h t wearediscussingisnot particularlyhowwecouldcombataggression.That wouldbeimpractical.Whatwearetalkingabout issimplyhowwecanrealizeitsstyleofoperating intheworld.ThenIdon'tseeanyparticular problems.Youareactuallyapproachingaggression fromthebackdoor,sotospeak,andvariousag- . gressiveactivitiescouldbecomepartofthelearn-ingprocessatthesametime.Thisparticular discussiontodayisnotreallycompletewithout goingthroughthenextthreedharmasofGampopa. Onceweputallthepiecestogetherit willmake it muchclearer. Q:Itseemsthatoneoftheobstaclestofeeling aggressionisfeelingthataggressionisn'tright. R:Thataggressionisn'tright? - 17-Q:Well,Iguessanaspectofaggression well,feelingthatitisn'trightoracceptablein certainsituations. R:Yeah.So,canyousaysomethingmore? Q:Uh,it's togetpersonal. R:Aggressionisalways, personal. Q:Uh,inmanyinstances,inmyrelatingtoyou, there'sadifficultybecauseIfeelanger.Andthe angerseemstobenotwantingtobeexposedinmany instances--andwhoareyoutoexposeme?Itseems totakethatform,anyway.Thereseemstobea greatdifficultytherebecauseofyourplaceandmy place,theguru-studentrelationship. R:Well,that'snotaparticularlyunusualcase. (Laughter.) Q:Itmaynotbeunusual,butitstillpresents problems. R:Sure,if youcallitaproblem. Q:Atthispointit'snotaproblem;atthispoint itseemstobehumorous. R:It'snotaSomething'sactuallybegin-ningtowork.Whenyoufeeltouchy,whentherela-tionshipissomuchonedge--something'saboutto There'sobviouslyresentment.There's obviouslysomekindofarroganceonyourpartthat youhavearighttohaveyouregoandconfusethe world.Youdon'twantanybodytomindyourbusiness, particularly.I'msorrytoputitsocrudely, butthat'susuallythecase.Ithinkthat'sthe beginningofworkingwiththestudent-teacher relationship,whensomethinglikethatbeginsto happen.It'saveryhotpoint,obviously. Q:Egads. R:It'sjustabouttosparksomething.And thatseemstobeaveryinterestingpoint--you couldgofurtherwit-hthat,youcouldexploremore. Therelationshipismirrorreflection--you couldgetangrywiththemirrorbecauseitmakesyou looksofat. Q:I'veneverthoughtintermsofgettingangry attheteacherthough. - 18-R:Well,that'.sexactlywhathappens,youknow. That'sthekindofthingwearetalkingabout. There'ssomebodywhomindsyourbusinessandre-flectsbackconyou.That'sahighlightofone's life,Iwouldsay--thereissomethingcoofing. Q:I'mincompleteagreement withthat.Q:Coulditbethatinotherrelationshipsin whichyoufeelresentmenttoapersonwhomyou. certainly considertobeyourteacher,that couldalsobeamirrorinsomesense? R:Sure,definitely,buttherelationshipmaybe lessintense. Q:IoftenfeelthatIhaveconfidenceinateacher asbeinga mirror,butsomepeopiearevery, verymuddy. R:Butit'sstillamirror.Whetheritsagood oneorabadone,it'sstillamirror.That'sthe differencebetweenateacherandotherpeople.One isclear,theotherisslightlyclouded.Butitis stillamirror,thereisstillsometruthinit. Q:Ifeelthatthedirectioninwhichonethinks thewayoneis.Thatis,ifonethinks negativelyit seemstomethatonebecomesnegative, andthesamewithpositivity.Andafterworking formanyyearsinateachingwhichfollowedthe linethatyouarepresenting,itgottothepoint whereIwascompletelynegative,akindofnegativity thatI'dneverhadinmylife.Igottothepoint offeelingthatworkingtowardsseeingthenegative facetsofmyselfresultedinmybeingmorenegative thanever.Ibegantolookforateachingthat stressedloveandlightandpositivity.Andat thispointI'mjustconfused.Couldyoucommenton that,please? R:Yes,indeed.(Laughter.)Well,howshouldI begin?Yousee,thewholeapproachisnotsomuch thatsinceyouhavehadoneextremeexperienceready,thereforeyoushouldseektheotherextreme. Thatwillcreateaheartattack.Youbecomeaflea; jumpingbackandforth.Oneoftheproblemsisthat youwanttosolveyourproblem.Youwanttosolve itverybadly:andyoutrytofindthebestremedy, whichcreatesmoreproblems.Butasamatterof fact,theproblemisn'tthereatall,evenatthe beginning.Youhavecreatedtheproblemyourself. - 19-Youaresopanickedbytheproblemthatyoubeginto beunabletolookatit.Youseeinthedustasnake-shapedrope,andsuddenlypanic,saying:"Oh,there's asnake,let'sgetaway!Telleverybodythere'sa snakeoverthere."Butyouneverexploredwhether therewasaropeorasnakeatthebeginning.This isaveryoldbuddhistanalogY-.Whenwepanic,we seethingsinanexaggeratedform,usuallyforthe worse;andoutofpanic,if welookforsomebodylove-and-lighty,wemightfindone.Thatpersoncould beextremelyaggressiveatheart,butstill,seem-inglyatl e a ~ t it'sachangetotalktosomebody whoappearstobegood,kindly.Ithinkalotof peoplegetsuckedintothatkindofsituationby jumpingtotheirfirstconclusionandbeingunable torelatewiththeirownpanic.Panicisavery interestingexperience.Itmakesyoucompletely petrified.Youactuallycan'teventhink.There is .akindofsunyatanonthinkingexperienceoc-curringinpanic.Butthat'sveryhardtodetect if youwanttorecaptureit.(Laughter.)Don't leavetomorrow.(Laughter.) Q:Thefour-dharmasofGampopaisaseries,apath thateverypersonhastowalkonbyhimselfandcan onlydobyhimself.Buttheformulationbywhichwe knowitstartswithasupplication.Whatisthe relationshipbetweenthosetwo,andtowhomisit addressed? R:Theideaofblessingisaveryinterestingpoint. Whenwetalkaboutablessing,it'snotsomuch goodnessdescendingonyou;it'saformofinspira-tioninwhichyouinspireyourself.Atthesame timeasthatinspirationtakesplace,theblessing isalsopresent.Youcreateyourownsituation. Mostofthesupplicationsthatexistinthebuddhist traditionarebasedonanawakeningprocessrather thanconfirmation.Itisawakening--howtoawake, howtotranscend.Wearenotaddressinganybody inparticular,butmaybeweareaddressingthe lineage(thepracticinglineage,theKagyulineage). Thereasonwearedoingthatisbecausethelineage representspracticeanddiscipline,andwefollow certainformatswiththatlineage.Weareprac-titionersofthatlineage,whichmeansthatwehave togoalongwiththat.disciplineinthesamewayas othershavedoneinthepast-GampopaandMilarepa andsoforth.So,we'reinspiringourselvessaying, "I'mgoingtobeonetoo."Itis.apersonalcom- mitment.ItisthesameasreadingtheHeartSutra andotherbuddhistsutras,whicharepurely - 20-dialoguesbetweenandhisdisciples.Atthe sametime,ithasitsqualityofup-to-dateness. Q:Rinpoche,yousaidweshouldtrytounderstand thenatureofaggressionandpain,notinthesense oftryingtocureourselves,buttounderstand imprisoningus,andthattorelatetothatinan arrogantoraggressivewaymightsomehowdisallow understanding.And,atleastatthispoint,I don'tseehowIcanrelatetoanythingotherthan aggressivelyorarrogantly,nomatterwhatstyle Imightadopt.AndIalsohavealittleproblem seeingthedifferencebetweencuringoneself,meaning gettingridofsickness,andseeingwhat'simprison-ingus. R:Well,Ithinkbasicallythepointisasenseof understandingtheaggression,tobeginwith.It's liketheanalogyofdrowning.Youhavetousethe water.tocomeupontothesurface.It'sthesame water,andwhetheryoudrownornotisuptoyou. Youaredrowningbecauseyouhavemismanagedthe water,andthereforeyouhavetouseadifferent approach.Atthebeginning,yourapproachmaybe anaggressiveone,butyouarewillingtoshedyour arroganceandyouarewillingtoberippedoff,so tospeak,willingtobecomenaked.Oncethereis willingnesstobeexposedwithoutanyhesitation, thenthere'snoproblem,nodifficulty. Q:Sothatwillingnessdoesn'tridyouofaggres-sion,butsomehowchangesthecharacterofit. R:Well,it mightbethe'samestyle,youmightbe doingthesamething,butyouraggressionsortof usesitselfup.Thelaterpursuitthroughthepath isveryirritating,butitdoesn'trelyonany aggressivemeansoranyaggressiveapnroach.It's aquestionofjustacknowledgingboredom.Boredom seemstobeawayoftransmutingaggressioninto practice. Q:Iwasjustthinkingabouttheanalogyofa mirror,thateverybodycouldbeamirrororthat situationscouldbemirrors.Butuponlookingat themirror,woulditbetruethatbeforeyoucould seeyourself,youwouldseeyouraggression?In otherwords,ifIsawsomebody--couldtheyreally reveal-myselftomeifIwouldallowmyselflook atthatmirror? R:Ithinkso,yeah. - 21-Q:ButbeforeIcouldseemyself,wouldIseemy resistancetothat? R:Yeah,that'spossible.Accordingtothepsycho-logicalstepsthattakeplace,youdon'tactually seeaggressionfirst.Aggressionistheflash,and one'segoisthelightwhichispermeatingtheflash. But,youdon'thavetimetogothroughthatprocess. It'sso_fastthatyouhavebeenpre-programmedal-ready.So,seemingly,theonlythingsyouseeor careforareyourreactions. Q:ThenbeforeIcouldrecapturethatflashorsee theflashagain,Iwouldhaveto.workthroughall that_aggression. R:Slowmotionofsomekind.Butthatseemstobe abittedious,andanalyzingitdoesn'tactually helpverymuch. Q:Well,whatwouldbethe--R:Atthispoint,nothing,exceptunderstanding what'sgoingon,ratherthananalyzing. Q:Mm-hmm. R:Atthebeginning,onehastodevelopasenseof intenseimprisonment.Thatseemstobethefirst inspiration.Then,onceyoubegintofeelthesense ofintenseimprisonment,youbegintofeelmoreof asenseofthepossibilitiesofnotbeingthere. Q:Goingbacktoaquestionaskedlastn-ight,with specificreferencetotheJewelOrnament,andnot beingable.torelateorinanywayexperientially identifywithalmostanypartofit--howdoesthisrelate toyourdiscussionofrelatingtothelineage? Lineagedoesn'tseem--therersnoexperiential identitywithit. R:Well,Ithinkquitebasicallyyoushouldwork withyouraggression,tobeginwith,andwhatis availabletoyouatthisparticularmoment.Work-ingthroughit.Thefirstinspirationtobecome richistobecomepenniless.Youhavetostart fromthebeginning. Q:Whereisthebeginning? R:Beingpoverty-strickenandveryangry,aggressive, wretched.(Laughter.)Wearenottalkingabout - 22-somethingdiff.erentthanwhatyouhave,whatyou alreadyhavearoundyou.We'vegottousewhat wehaveasresources.Onceweactuallyrealize thatthere'ssometruthinit,thatisthebegin-ningortherootofthepath.Thenwebeginto haveagreatgraspofit.Thepathdoesn'tomit orrejectthatpart, Q:Specifically,I'mthinkingofhiswholething ofaccumulatingmeritorthelistofwaysthatwe merit.Theworstmurderwastomurderyour guru.(Laughter.)Igottheimpressionthatthe worstoffensesofallhadtodowithyourteacher, anditseemedlikeitatradeunionorsomething. (Laughter.) R:Wediscussedthatalreidy,youknow.Ifyou don'tlikeyourmirror,whatyourmirrorhasto say,youdon'tbreakthemirrorbecauseyouknow youmightfindsomeothermirrorwhichisalsoclear andsayingthesamething.Sofromthatpointof view,theguruisnotparticularlyoneperson. It'shaunting. - 23-TALK113"SUCCESSONTHEPATH" Iwouldliketogobackalittlebittowhat wediscussedyesterdayinconnectionwiththemind followingthedharma.Oneofthecharacteristics ofthatisbasicrenunciation,butnotrenunciation inthesenseofleavingone'shometown orcountryandbecomingaholymanofsorts.Re-nunciationseemstobebasedonatrueunderstanding ofsuffering.Andthenrenunciationtakesafurther step,whichisbecomingpartofthegreatervision--leavingone'sownhometown,metaphoricallyspeaking, orego.Thismeansthatourfamiliarterritoryis notrelatedwithasacozyhomesituation.We haveactuallyleftourhometerritory,thatwhich encouragesusingrowingfamiliarplansandwallow-inginthem.Andinunderstandingthatsenseof renunciation,wemustrealizetheneedforcompassion, theneedforwarmth,aswellastheneedforless arroganceandaggression.Thatseemstobethe firststep,orthefirst Andnowwe're gettingintothesecond. dharma,. which is:follow-ingthedharma,thatonesucceedsonthepath. Succeedingonthepathoffollowingthedharma iscomprisedofthreesituations:you,thedharma, - 24-andthepath.havebecomepartofthe .dharma already.Inotherwords,youhavealreadyidentified yourexperienceswiththe sotheteachings becomeaspokesmanorconfirmationforyou.Follow-inginthatdire-ction,onceyouhaveactuallymade somekindofconnectionorcomP.letelinkwiththe truth- -thatyouandthetruth areone- -energyhas alreadyhappenedatthatpoint;Soyoucan'tre-mainsteadyandyou'reneverstuckinoneplace. Oncethe andyouareone,youareautomatically moving,youarealreadytakingajourneyofsomekind. Youmoveautomaticallyoncethathashappened,and verypersonally.Thejourneytakesplaceauto-maticallyandthepathhappensautomatically,soyour journeyonthepathisverypowerfulandenergetic. Somethingfurtherseemstobenecessaryinthis connection:thereisaneedfordiscipline.Discipline isthewayfinallyandcompletelytoactu:alize.the unitybetweenyourselfandthedharma.Discipline isthefuel,becausedisciplineis situationsl1v1ng.Youreverydayl1fe1s very..-< trying,sometimesveryeasy,sometimeschallenging. Ittakesallkindsofshapesandpatterns.So basicallydisciplinemeans.willingnesstoworkwith allthat,awillingnessforyouandthedharmaor truthtobeone.Inotherwords,youandthetruth ofsuffering,youandthetruthofegolessness,and youandthetruthofirnpermanenceJareone.These areknownasthethreemarksofexistence,according tothebuddhisttradition:egolessness,suffering, impermanence.Theyareveryimportantsubjectsin realizingthetruthaboutlife. Inthiscase,truthisnotparticularlythe divinetruthofthetheistictraditions.This particulartypeoftruthisnontheisticIt istruth.Truthwithouttheism.Thatistosay, itisyouandyourworldratherthanyouandyour worldandsomebodyelse(orsomethingelse).So fromthatpointofview,thepracticeofmeditation istheidealnontheisticdiscipline,thetraditional disciplineofmeetingoneselfwithoutindulging. Meetingoneselfandbreakingthroughonese1f. \ Inmeditation,yousimplysitandbreathe. Breathingi.snot.regardedasatool.Crutchesmaybe, butnotparticularlyatrickorgadget.It'sim-possible,sinceyouhavebeenbreathingsuchalong time,thatit couldberegardedasanewtechnique. Justbecomeonewiththebreath.Identifycompletely withyourpreath; s.othatbreathingbecomesyouand - 25-youbecomethebreathing:bodybecomesbreathing, breathingbecomesmindbecomesbody,breathing. Verysimpleanddirect.Thought-chatte.rsoccur. AccordingtothesamathatraditionJ whenthought chattersoccur,youjustacknowledgeyourthoughts andreturntoyourbreathing.Religiousthoughts, sexualthoughts,thoughtsofaggression,business thoughts,domesticthoughts,thoughtsthatthoughtsthatshowyourprivateshow, thoughtsthatplay _backonarecordplayer:Allof thosearejustthoughts,evenif they'reangry, jealous,orwhatever,Youcouldfeelgreatthatall ofthosearejustthoughts,thinkingprocess.What-everoccursyourthinkingprocessaretobe regardedasjustthoughts,thoughts,thoughts.They're neithergoodnorbad;they'resimplythere,like cloudsintheskywhichcomeandgo.Thoughtsare there,simplythere.Andthenafteracknowledging yourthoughts,comebacktothebreathing. There'sonepointIwouldliketoraise: there'snosuchthing.asanidealmeditativestate. Sincethisparticulartraditionisnotcultivating anystateofmind,anyeuphoricstateofmind,the practiceofmeditationcouldsometimesbequite chaoticanddisgraceful,andsometimeitcouldbe extremelygood.Butwhateverhappens,it'syour journeythatyouaretaking.Havingone'smind unifiedwiththedharma,youaretakingthisjourney. Itis.endless,andsometimesit'scircular:thefaster yougo,thecloser.youcomebacktohome.Sothere isnopointinspeeding.Thisjourneyisvery real.Themoreyouawake,themore itis. Themoreyouawake,themoreyou'reinvolvedwith thesittingpracticeofmeditation,themoreneurosis couldbeseenthrough.Thatis,todayyourfever isliftin_g,soyouroriginalsickness.becomesmore vivid.Andasyouroriginalsicknessbeginslifting, thesideeffectsbecomemorecomplainatory.Andas thesideeffectsdissolve,thenlittleirritations becomeabigdeal.Sothere'snoendtotrouble, problems.Throughtheprocessof .becomingmoremorerefinedbymeansofthesittingpracticeof meditation,youbecomemoreshakey,basically,because ego'sfortification,itsmaintainingofitsenter-.tainment,itsterritoy;anditskingdom,becomes doubtful:Sothere'sa,enseofloss,oflosing heart.Andwhatyou'relosingisyourarrogance,your chauvinism. Oftenyouaretemptedtogobacktoyourgood olddays.Lifeusedtobemorecolorful:morechallenge, - 26-morefights,morechaos,greaterpain.Butsome-how,atthisseemstobetoolate.The sittingpracticeofmeditationgenerallybringsa lotofloneliness.You'rerealizingthatyoucan't actuallyuseothers,youhavetolivewithyourself. Howeverharditmaybe,stillonehasto withoneself.Itbecomesproblematic,verylonely, extremelydesolate.Youcan'tcryonsomebody's shoulder,orjumponsomebody'slap.Andyoucan't tellsomebodyyourinnermostsecretsabouthowthe psychologicaldisciplinesareaffectingyouthrough-outthisprocess.Ynumightthinkyouaremaking somesense,butothershavedifficultylistening toyou.Thingsbegintobreakdown.Themore youtrytointroducecomplicatedmethods,themore lonelyitbecomes.Whereas,ontheotherhand,if you'rejusttrying.torelatewiththeworldsimply anddirectly,agreatercommunicationtakesplace. Verysimple,directcommunication,whichisnot involvedwithaskingforsympathyorforafight. It'sveryd.irectcommunicationwithnodemandon eitherside.It beheavenly. Soitisveryimportantforustorealizethat if we'regoingtodosomethingaboutourselves,it's besttouptryingtodosomethingintermsof goalorientation.Aswediscussedalready,you can'twatchyourownburial.Youcan'thavea graduationceremonywith?hostofbuddhasand bodhisattvascongratulatingyou.(Actually,that mighthappen,butthenitwillnotbeyoubutsome-bodyelse--Ishouldsaysomethingelse,ratherthan somebody.) Sodisciplineisverynecessary,important. Withoutit,wecan'tcutthroughourselvesproperly. Disciplineisthefeulwhichburnsego;itisthe swordthatcutsthroughallpreconceptions.Some-timesdisciplinebecomesasourceofresentment,and sometimesitisasourceofinspiration.Butin anycasetherearenodifficultieswhenoneis abletogetintodiscipline.Therearenonodifficultiesatall.Thedifficultieslie inthatwedon'twanttogiveup"this"--westill wouldliketomaintainourarrogance. Accordingtonontheisticdisciplines,reali-zationandfreedom onlybepossibleif weare abletodevelqpourownawakening.Supposingyou fellasleepand.sleptlate.Thedawn,thesunrise orthedaylightwouldn'thelp.Firstyouhaveto wakeyourselfupinordertoseethedawn,thesunlight. - 27-There.' ssomethinginuswhichisawakeningalready. Andwehavetotapthatparticularsource,that particularenergy,by. meansofdiscipline,the sittingpracticeofmeditation.Thishasbeen recommendedbytheBuddha,andhas practiced for2,500years.It'sold-fashionedtruth,in somesense.Butatthesametimeitisup-to-date, applicable--andalotofusstilldoit.This isnotparticularlyatestimonial,butitstill works.Itstillhappens.Itbecomesapartof basicnecessity.Evenduringprehistoricages, animalsate,drankandslept,andevenatthis pointinthetwentiethcenturywestilldothose samethings,andtheystillwork.It'sthesame kindofthing:thesittingpracticeofmeditation isnotanewgadgetthatsomebodyjustcameupwith. Itisnotabrightideasomebodyjotteddowninhis notebookanddecidedtopublicize,jazzup,and braodcast,whichthengotalot-offollowersand finallyafewtestimonialreportsaswell. Atthispointitseemstobeneedlesstotalk aboutitsworkability,butratherhowitneedsto bedone.Whenyourmindfollowsthedharma, basicallyyoubegintodevelopasenseofrealization. Butthatunitybetweenmindandtruthneedscontinual disciplineJsothatitdoesnotbecomepurelyapre-conception,aconceptualidea,sothatitactually worksanditactuallyrelateswithourbasicbeing. Thatisdiscipline,thepracticeofmeditation, whichaccordingtotheBuddhaisverysimpleand direct. Asfarastechniqueisconcerned,itisvery simple.Basicallyitisworkingwithwhatis available,thatis,withyourselfandwithwhatis aroundyou:yourbody,yourbreath,yourmind.It's verysimple.Youworkwithyourbodybyboycotting unnecessaryactivities,justsittingstill.When yousitstill,youfeelyourheartbeat,youhear yourbreathandyourthoughtsbegintochatter. sowhathasbeenrecommended.isjusttogoalong withyourbreathing,whichisanaturalthing. Whereasif youtrytoholdyourmindsteadyandstill, themoreyoutrytoholdit,themoreyourmindbe-comesrestless.Yourminddoesn'twanttoaccept thatkindofauthority.Itbecomesmoreinquisitive aboutentertaining Question:Whatsetyoutolaughinginthebeginnirrg ofthelecture! ...:.28-Rinpoche: Ithink stillverymuchhome-oriented,andthat'sveryna1ve--andfunnytoo.It feelsasif everybodycomeshereafterthey'vejust finishedthedishwashing,suddenlysettleddown,and nowarewatchingtelevision. Q:Rinpoche,wouldyousaythatbuddhismisa kindofultimatecopingmechanism? R:Ithinkallreligionswouldsaythat,in-cludingbuddhism.Butatthesametime,as buddhists,wethink.thatwe'vegotthebest. Q:Thebestwhat?Igotlost.I'mnot.asking youtofindme,butI'dliketofindyou,your teachings--.R:Well,thebest. fromthepointofviewof coping.Youfeelyouaren'tbeingcheated thattheonlyprocessyou'regoingthroughisre-discoveringyourself. Q:Oh. Q:Iseemtohavealittletroublecommunicating inthisrealmofbuddhism.Beforestartingonthe path,weallfindourselvesinastateofduality, andwethinkintermsofduality,andattheother end,there'snonduality.AndtheonlywayIcan conceiveofgettingoffthestartingline,is talking a-tntthinkinginamixtureofbothduality andnonduality,experiencingalittlenonduality throughmeditation,if I'mfortunate.ButIfind ittobenecessaytocommunicateinthedualistic manner.Ican'tcomprehendtryingtocommunicate inthenondualisticway.Isthisunusualoristhis aconflict?Haveyoufoundthistobe.adifficult stumblingblockaspeoplestartoutfromthe wordandstartingdownthepCl.thslowly, slowlydissolve? R: seeanyproblems.Evenif youreach thelevelofnonduality,thatisdualityalready. Soyoucan 'tjustmimicnonduali ty.AndIdon't thinkthere.isreallysuchathingasnondualityat all ..That'.sjustanotheridea. Q:Mm-hmm.Well,Iwaslisteningtoyourtape todayonDonJuan,andyouweretalkingaboutthe Journey.toIxtlanh.andhowDonGenerasaidthathe wouldnevergettere,hewouldalwaysbeonthe pathor onthejourney.Soinasense,we'realways - 29-operatingfromawoild.oduality,correct! R:Yeah--Q:--andwehavetoparticipateinthethought someextent,thatdualityoffers. Today,inour'discussion,Ifoundaverystrong resistancetologic,youknow,theimplicationthat logicisdualisticandthereforethatthere'sno placeforit. R:There'snoproblem.Actually,whatI'm planningtotalkabouttomorrowistheintellectual howonesmindworks. Q:I'll waituntiltomorrowthen,andmaybeaskmy questionthen. R:Don'tleavebeforetomorrow.Q:Inourdiscussiongrouptoday,weweretalking aboutaggression,and--R:Canyouraiseyourvoice? Q:Yeah.Itoccurredtomethatmaybeour mereexistenceinsomewaysisaggressiveinthat we'retakingupspace.Andunderlyingthisaggression maybeaninsecurityofbeing.Would-youcomment onthat? R:Ithinkyouareright,butthenthereisthe obviousaggressionwhichstemsfromthat.Ourobvious arrogance,obviousaggressioncanbeworkedon. Thepointiswecan'tknockthewholewalldownat once,butwecantakeit downbrickbybrick.We candealwithwhataresimplesituationsnow. Basicexistence isasenseofwantingto holdonandasenseofbeing.Itcontainsa lotofaggressionalready,fortheveryfactthat l-and-otherisalreadyasteptowards Youdon'twanttobeattacked;youwouldliketoholdyourparticularcastle. Q:Lookingatourselvesasbeingaggressive andconfuse.d,andatlifeassufferingJ couldbecome self-indulgentinnegativity.Andinthatway,it wouldreinforcethenegativeratherthan positive. R:Itdependionhowyouareactuallydealingwith thatsituation.Youcouldd.ealwiththatsituation asgoingbacktofamiliarground,holdingonto yourterritory,oryoucould. workonasmanure - 30-thatcouldbeabandonedinthefield.But.it'sstill usefultogrowcrops. Q:Yesterdayryoualludedtoaggressivenesshaving arelationshipwithboredom,andI'vebeenthinking aboutthatbecauseI'mboredalotwhenIsit.Is boredomjustresentmentoris.theresuchathingas anacceptabletypeofboredom? R:Iwouldsayboredomisresentment,definitely. Butwhentheboredombeginstotakeshape,you .wouldliketogetintoboredomratherthanactive resentment.Soboredomcouldbesaidtobepassive resentment,adeaf-and-dumbapproach:youdon'twant tosee,youdon'twanttohear,andyoudon'twant tospeak. Q:LatelyI'vebeenfeelingIhadmanyhopes, illusionsorideaswhichseemtohavefallen away--butnotcompletely.IguessIstillresent that.Everythingseemsrather barren,and vague.Ijustdonotknowanymorewhatstepsto takeorwhatdirectiontobemoving.Howdoyouwork withthatkindofvagueness,orifit'sboredom,with thatkindofboredom? R:Well,it'snotaquestionofthedirection thatyou'retaking,thatyoumustknowthat.It doesn'tinvolvescheming.Webasicallylackan understandingofnewness,ofthepresentsituation. Youcomeupwiththeprobleminthepresentandyou wouldliketodosomethingaboutit.Butsinceyou can'tfacethepresent,youtrytostudyitscase history,whichisinsomesenseacop-out. Q:Butyoumuststilldosomething.Youarestill alive. R:Youcando.itinaccordancewithwhat's thereratherthandoingsomethingaccordingto Dr.Spock'sbook. Q:Idon'tunderstandthat.Doingsomethingmeans somethingtome.MyhassleisthatIhavealotof aggressionandhostilityinme.It'sabigpart ofme.Andwhenthingscomeupinmylife,heavy scenes,trips--whenIhavetoreacttomyown aggressionorsomebodyelse's--I'musuallyunable todoit.ButI'veonlybeenmeditatingsince Thursdaymorning.Idon'tevenknowifI'm meditatingyet.Bu.tifaggressioncomesintomyhead whnI'msitting,Istartlookingatit.AndifI thinkI'mlookingatit,allofa - 31-thingelsethere,Idon'tknowkowtodealwithit andIdon'tthinkIcanlearnhowtode a!withit. Ithinkthat--hereIam,thinking.Myheadisso fullofconceptsandwords,fallingallthetime, thatIguessIhavedecided,somehow,tocommit myselftositting.ButI'mstillnervous.I'm shakinglikealeafrightnow,and"hello." Well,Ithinkthesimplestansweris,sit. Q:Thankyou. R:It'sverytricky.Itcouldbe.It'sin theprocessoftryingtotonedown,butatthe sametime,itcouldbearagingwar--youknow,planning yourwarfare. Q:ShouldonegiveupanopportunitytoattackJ eventhoughthatmeansyou'renotdoingwhatyou're feeling? R:Well,yousee,thishasbeenourgeneralproblem allalongwhenwetalkaboutemotion.Wehavea misunderstandingthatemotionsimplyparticular actions.Forinstance;wethinkangerautomatically meanshittingsomebody.Butthat'snotquitethe case.Attackingissomethingotherthanactual anger.Attackingistheproductoftheemotion ratherthantheemotionitself.Sotheemotion actuallylieswithinus.Emotionmanifestsin allkindsofways,butactingitoutisnotquite thewaytoreleaseit.Whatusuallyhappensis thatwhenyougoalongwiththeproductofemotion, thatrechargesthenextone,andsoitgoeson andon,perpetually.ItneverThequestion ishowtohavesomekindofrelationshipwithyour emotionsthemselves,notjusttheproductofthe emotions.Usuallywhathappensinthestateof emotionisthatwegocompletelystupid,andwe actuallydon'thaveanylogicalmindsorany intelligenceatall.Youcouldbeaveryintelligent person,butneverthelesswhenyouareinthatstate, you'repetrifiedandfrozencompletely.Theemotions takeyoubeforeyouactuallystrike somebody.Sothere'salotofroomactuallytomake friendsorharmonywiththeemotionsatthatpoint. Emotionscanbeworkedwithinyourmind,asthe emotionsareactuallycooking,whentheyactually happen,whentheyareactuallybrewing.They canbeworkedonatthatlevel.Ithinkthatit's moreaconflictbetweenyouandyou,rather betweenyouandsomebodyelsefromthatpointofview. - 32-Q:Inrelationtowhatyousaidaboutaggression, Iwonderhowonecandealwithotherpeople's resistancetothepathortoone's.involvementin spirituality--theirlackofunderstandingortheir resistancetoit. R:Well;.Ithinktryingtoiayyourtripon somebodyelsedoesn'thelp.Itbecomesjustanother tripasfarastheyareconcerned,obviously.I thinkthatpeop!_ecanonlyunderstandyourin-volvementinthedharmabyyourexample,bywhere youare.Exampleisbetterthanwords. - 33-TALK##4"TRANSCENDINGCONFUSION" OursubjecttonightisthethirddharmaofGampopa: transcendingconfusion,clarifyingconfusion."Well," wecouldask,"Ifoneisfollowingthepathofdharma, iscompletelyunifiedwiththedharma,andpracticing meditationdiligently--thenwhatelseisnecessary?" Butinmanycases,situationsarisewhicharecompletely beyondourexpectations.Webegintogetintoso- calledtripsofallkinds,wishfulthinking,expecta-tions,theneedforcertainrevelations--allleading backtospiritualmaterialismconstantly.Thisis theconstantproblemthatweface.Apersoncouldbe acompetentpractitioner,agoodmeditator;buthe stillhasproblemsinactuallygivingupthegoal, givinguppreconceptions.Inanontheisticdiscipline, theideaofbeingsavedordeliveredintoahigher goal,isalwaysproblematic.Thenontheisticapproach ismuchsharperthanthat.Itismoreaccurateand preciseforthestudentfollowingthepath. Thenotionofgoalorpromise,tendstobring unnecessarysecurity,maybefalsesecurity.Ittends tobringupthequestionofpleasure:thatfollowing - 34-thespiritualpathisbasedonpurelyseekinggreater pleasure.Youcancallitblissorabsorptionorany-thingyouwant;butnevertheless,whatitboilsdown toisseekingforpleasure.Andthatusedtobethe mainsellingpointofassorted spiritualtrips:"Other pleasures,suchasbecomingamillionaire,orhaving anair-conditionedhome,orhavingeverythingyouwant, fame,gloryandeverything,didn'tsatisfyyou.We, ontheotherhand,areofferinggreaterpleasure.So whydon'tyoucometous?"Thatusedtobethegreat commercial.Peoplegot-suckedintoit,andalotof peoplethoughtis.wasanextraordinariiygoodidea. Thisparticularpleasurecouldbejazzedupbysaying: "Itisnotsafeandnotindulgent.Itisultimate pleasure.Ithasnocomparisonwithanythingatall, thereforeit-issuperiorandsupremeandfantastic. Anditisalsothetruth.Ifyoureallyexperience thetruth,youexperience pleasure,incom-parablepleasure."Thisattitudehasitsrootsinthe theistictraditioninsomesense--apervertedform, ofcourse.Andif weareswayedbythatkindofatti-tude,wewillhavedifficultyinactuallytranscending ourconfusion,whichisthethirddharma,orthird stepofthepath.Wewillhavenowaytotranscend ourconfusion.Buddhadharmaisnotbasedoncreating anddevelopingasenseofgreatpleasure.Youmight getaclearideaaboutpleasureorblissorthejhana statesormahasukhaorwhateveryouwouldliketocall it.Butthatexperienceisactuallystillconfusion. Ithasthesenseofduality--experiencerandexperience. Youcouldsaythatthispleasureissupreme pleasurebecauseyoudon'texperiencetheexperiencer, thatyouarecompletely,totallyinvolvedwiththe cosmicorgasmandforth.Youmightlosethere-ferencepointofexperiencerwhenyouarecompletely overwhelmedbypleasure.Ofcourse.Thesamegoes foranger,forthatmatter.Butinfactthat'sthe problem.Thereisasplit,schizophreniainthecosmic sense,ratherthanbeingfreakedoutina mentalhospital.Thereisthegreaterschizophrenia ofnotbeingableactuallytoconcentrateonone-pointednessindealingwithone'sego.Immenseconfusion. Itistruealotofthecurrentapproaches tospiritualityaregearedforthatparticularpleasure, thatparticularpromise,inaverysophisticatedway--tothelevelofsalesmanshipintheordinarysense. Awholerangeofsalesmanshiptakesplace.Nevertheless - 35-theyareallsayingthesamething:"Howcanwebe morecomfortable?"Inotherwords:"Thiswretched lifeissopainful,weshouldrenounceit.Weshould becomeasceticssowecangetbetterpleasureand wedon'thavetodealwiththisrotten,wretchedlife calledsamsara."Thereasonwerenounceitisthat wearedisgusted.Wedon'twanttoliveinadungeon--wewouldliketoiiveinadiamondcastle. That'sthekindofsituationthatcreatescon-flict.Themorewethinkintermsofthegoaland theobjectofthegoal,themoreourmindsbecome schizophrenic.Thereisimmenseseparation:themore wetrytogivein,giveup,devoteourselvesorwor-ship,themoreimportanttheworshipperbecomes.It isamutualego-building.YoumightpraisetheLord. AndpraisingtheLord,yougetareward:youbecome closetoGodortheLord.Andfinallyyoubecome goodfriendsandyoucanactuallydemandwhatyou wantfromHimorHer.It'sakindofdiplomatic game,thatyouaretryingtoreachhigherandhigher intotheauthorities,tryingtogetcloserandcloser. Onceyouareclosetotheauthorityorthepresident, thekingorthequeen,youhaveaccesstomakingyourself comfortableandhappy,becauseyouhavegreatinfluence bythen;Youhavealotofcredentialsatthesame time--whichbecomesabigproblematthispoint. Spiritualityfromthisp o i n ~ ofview,according tothethirddharmaofGampopa,isnotsomuchseeking pleasureorcomfortorsecurity.Insteaditisvery straightforwardandsomewhat,youmightsay,dull. Andthere'sno"fun-fair"involved.Weexploreour emotions,workwiththemintheirownstateratherthan withtheir'products.Wedon'tgetachancetochange shifts,totakeourmindsoffthemiserablesituations ofsamsara.Everythingseemstobeverydullandpurely pragmatic.Thatseemstobethewholepoint:non-theisticdisciplineisverypragmatic.It'shuman-situationoriented,ratherthananotherpromisefor ego. Inotherwords,everything--whateverwedo,any littlestepswemake--isbasedonthei e ~ ofthe desolationofego,ofthatwhichcreatesdoublevision. Basicallywhathappensisatypeofegomania.Ego isactuallyunabletomakeupitsmind.Egosometimes wantsthat,somtimewantsthis--constantlychanging itsmind.Andatthesametimethereisanothersituation--- 36-"meandother."Sothereisafourplexinvolved--"meandother"and"thisandthat."Conflicting situationsareconstantlytakingplaceandwehaveno ideawhattodo,oncewebecomevictimtothem.But somehow,followingthepathofmeditationactually doescreateasenseofperspective,asenseofclear vision,asenseofreality.Wearenotsearchingfor happinessorgreaterhappiness,particularly,butwe aresearchingforfreedom.Inordertogainreal freedom,onehastobefreefromthesearchforhap-piness.Thatsearchcouldbecome If onereallywantstohavealong-term,completeproject, onehastodoacleanjobofthewholething.In, ordertodothat,onehastolookateverydetail ofthe"yes's"and"no's"thatareinvolvedinthe wholething. Freedomisnotexactlythesameashappiness. HappinessisastateOfmind,asIoncereadona bottleofgin.Itsays,"Ginisastateofmind." (Laughter.)Evensupremehappinessisastateof mind.Butfreedomisindependentofastateofmind, amindthatactuallyminds"yes's"and"no's ."It istotalexperience.Whenfreedomoccurs,thereis noreferencepointandthereisnocelebration.You havefreedomalready,sothere'snopointinbeating adeadhorse.Sometimescelebratingbreakthroughs isahang-up.Thereisstillsomethingverysadabout that.Celebrating.victorymeansthatyouarestill inimprisonment,you'restillstrugglingalot.You haven'tquitereachedbeyondthiscelebrationof victory.Sofreedom,fromtheultimatepointofview, doesn'tneedcelebration;itisadirect-andsimple experience,all-pervasive.Itisnotastateofmind accordingtotheemotionalityorfeelinglevel--the levelof"fororagainst,"inotherwords. Sothebasicnotionoftranscendingorclarifying confusionisexperiencingthestateoffreedom,an unconditionalstateoffreedom.It'snotpleasurable--andnotunpleasurableeither.It'sbig thinking.Andit hasahugemind,abigheart.It isall-pervasive.Itcoversallareas,butnotfor thesakeofcoveringallareas--itjusthappensthat way.Suchastateofbeingistranscendingconfusion, transcendingpredominantlyseekingpleasure.Some peopleseekpain,butthatisnotexactlytheusual styleofhumanbehavior.Usuallyif youaresome-whatintelligent,youseekpleasure.Butsometimes youmightseekpainbecauseyourpleasureistoomuch. - 37-Youneedacontrast.Itislikedippingintoa Turkishbathorsittinginasteambathandtrying tolivethroughtheclaustrophobiaofall-pervasive heat.Butthat'sjusttryingtocreatelittlecon-trasts,knowingthatonceyougetoutofit,you'll ~ fantastic. Theapplicationofthepracticeofmeditation bringsasenseofactualfreedom.Butintaking stepstowardstranscendingconfusion,it 'isnecessary foryoutogiveuphopeandfearatonce,simultane-ously.Youhavetogiveuppleasureshopping.That seemstobeanimportantpoint.Otherwiseweconstantly accumulateallkindsofthings,oneafteranother. Youareinvolvedinanendlessgame,anendlesssearch. Youpickuplittlepiecesofthatandthisallover theplace:youmeetthisfamousperson,thatfamous person;thiswriter,thatwriter;thiseccentricsage, andthateccentricsaint.You'recollectingallthe time.Butatthesametime,youcouldbesaidtobe collectingalotofimprisonment.Youcouldbuya goldchain;silverchain;achainin.laidwithdiamonds, opals,rubies;woodenones;bambooones;concrete ones(laughter);clothones;hopingitisgoingto beagoodornamenttowear--butintheenditbecomes ahang-up.That'swhat'scalledspiritualmaterialism. Wemighthaveagoodtimeinthe"fun-fair," onour. shoppingtrip--aglorioustime,neveradull moment.Butwhenwecomebackhomewithourcollec-tions,.thatissomethingquitedifferent."Whatdo wedowiththese?Whichchainsshouldweweartoday?" Thesenseofrenunciationthatwetalkedaboutatthe beginning--realizingthepainthatisinvolvedinour lifeandtheconfusionthatisinvolvedinourlife, thechaos--itisnotbadtothinkthatover.Itmakes alotofsense.It'sveryearthy.It'sanoriginal ideaofours,ourownexperiences,verysimpleand direct.Quitepossiblythatwillbringustoare-nunciationofourterritorialityandego-hold;and atthesametimethatmightbringthepossibility oftranscendingconfusion. Confusion,fromthispointofview,isthede-sireforgreaterhappiness.Greaterhappinessis asomewhatmythicaltheme:youarenotquiteexper-iencinggreaterhappiness.Youthinkthatthebest youcandoistotrytoexperienceit--whichisalready watereddown.Sowhateverwedoinourlifeistrying - 38-toboycottwhatwehaveinourexistence--ourmind, ourbody,ourintelligence,ourperception.Welook forsomethingelseentirelydifferent.Wearemore interestedinforeignculturesthanourownculture. Wedon'thavehappiness;wefeelmiserable.There-foreweimporthappinessasaforeignproductand trytomakethebestofit. Thequestionishowmucharewefoolingourselves forthesakeoffreedom--so-calledfreedom,goodliving. Itisalsoimportanttolookatthepathfromadomes-ticpoiritofview,intermsofourjourneyfromthe beginningtotheend--howmuchdevelopmentistaking place,orhasitbeenthesameoldthing,thatweare alwaysgettinginourownway?Maybeoccasionaldoubts arethebestremedy,thebestwaytotranscendconfusion. guestion:Iassociatethesetalkswithwhatweread J.ntheSadhana:"Grantyourblessingssothatmymind mayfollowthedharma;Grantyourblessingssothat confusionmaybeclarifieQ.."Ihadsomeideathat maybe"confusionmaybeclarified"waswhatyoucalled transcendingconfusion. Rinpoche:Mm-hmm. Q:Whenit's clarifiedratherthanmuddy,itsuddenly becomes--it'snolongerconfusion.Isthatright? < R:That'sright.Yes.Ithinkmaybe"transcending" isabetterword. Q:Doesthatmeantheconfusiondoesn'texistat thatpoint,thatitisleftbehind? R:Well,Ithinkittakesseveralsteps.Firstwe havetoclarify.Thenwecantranscend.Itisn't aone-shotdeal.Butfundamentally,it'stranscending. Q:Ihavetroubleunderstandinghowonecanfulfill -theexpectedroleofearningalivelihoodandmake anysignificantprogresstowardstranscendingconfusion. Forexample,apresidentofabank--ifheactuallymakes progresstowardsgivinguphisterritory,hecan't fulfillhisroleanymore.Hewouldmakealousypre-sidentofabank,it wouldseemtome,ifhewasin thatposition.I'mfindingmyselfinthatposition moreand inmerchandisinglife andmaterialpossessionsandthatsortofthing.I finditdifficulttohaveanymotivationinthatdi-rection--andthereforeIcan'tevenseem.tosupport - 39-myself.(Laughter.)Ifindmyselfmoreandmoreat themercyofpeoplesupportingme. R:Well,youranalogyofabankpresidentmakesan interestingpoint.Ifanybodyisinthatparticular role,themorehehangsontohisterritorythemore peoplegetpissedoffathimandthemorehefeels trappedintheorganization.Butifsuchaperson delegateslotsofresponsibilitiestohiscolleagues andsubordinates,andatthesametimeinspirestheir particularinitiativesintheorganizationalrealm, thenhisterritorybecomesmuchgreaterandheismore respected.Heisnotfightingforhisterritory,but residingthereasaleader.Ithink1tdependsonhow bigthebank"isandalsohowbenevolentthatbank presidentis.Ifthereislessterritoryyoucouldbe agreaterleader.Youdon'thavetoholdontoyour particularlittlearea.Andinfact,tryingtohave everyfingerinthepiewouldexhaustyoutodeathas theorganizationbecamebigger--itwouldbecuttingyour ownthroat.So,ifyoureallywanttoexpandand developandopen,youshoulddelegatemoreinterms ofleadership.Thathappensverynaturally.And sometimes,ofcourse,youhavetotakeachance.Some peoplemightbequestionableintheirposts.Youdon't reallyliketoputsomeonetherebutstillyouwould liketocultivatethatpar.ticularpersonalityinthat particularrole.Anditwillprobablyturnoutwell becauseoncesomebody'sinahighposition,thetrust oftheleaderisinvestedinhim,sothatperson beginstofeelveryinspiredandbeginstopullup. Thereis~ s s draggingdown,butinsteadconstant. pullingup.Sofromthebank'spointofview,Ithink youcantranscendconfusionveryeasily. Butindividualsituationsareverytricky,I suppose.Ifyouarelivingoffofsomebody,that's veryheavyduty.Andoneoftheprinciplesofthe bodhisattvaapproachis,tobeginwith,thatyou shouldnotbeanuisancetoyourself.Thesecondone isthatyoushouldn'tbeanuisancetoothers.So Isupposeonehastodevelopsometranscendingof confusionthere,too.(Laughs.) Q:Wheredoesthebhikshucomein? R:Hedoesn'texpecttobesupportedbyotherpeople. He'sjustasimple-livingperson.Andthereisno prc:>blem.Itisanopensituation.Itisnotthathe. beginstotaphisparticulardevoteeorhisparticular - 40-supporter,orcomesbackagainandagain--butit'san open-endedkindofthing.Actually,duringtheSecond WorldWarafewBurmesebhikshuscametoEngland,and realized~ h t theycouldn'tpracticetheirdiscipline astheyhaddoneinBurma--begginginthestreets. Theyrealizedthatandgotthemselvesjobs,andat worktheyworetheuniformsoftheirfactory.And whentheyreturnedhometheyworerobesandconducted servicesandrelatedwiththeirbuddhistfollowers. Itwasverysuccessful.Itisaremarkablememory forpeople,nowadays--thatthosepeopleactually demonstratedanexampleofbuddhism.Sothatcanbe done,too. Q:Couldyouelaboratealittlebitaboutfreedom fromwhat?Youspeakofourseekingtoattainfree-dom.I'mconfusedaboutexactlywhatitisthatwe're tryingtogetfreeof. R:Freeofconfusion.Ifyouaretryingtoestablish yourfreedomfromconfusion,youarenotfightingit: youarefreefromconfusionorimprisonment.Ifyou havetoomuchofyou,that'sthesourceofyourim-prisonment.Ifyoubegintoopenup,thereisless confusionbecauseyoudon'texist,actuaily,whichis verythreatening.It'snoteasytosay,andnotas easytodoastosay--butexpand. Q:Rinpoche,IhopeI'mnotmakingtoomuchofthese words--transcendandclarify--butitseemstomethat confusiongrowsoutofaseriesofmistakesthatare continuallymade.AndthereforeIdon'tseehow confusioncouldbetranscended.Itwouldnaturally disappearonceitwasclarified,andtherewouldbe noneedtotranscend.Confusionisaman-madeproduct, andonceit'sclarified,itceasestobe.Sothere's nonecessitytotranscendit,inthesensethattranscend meanstoovercome. R:Well,Ithinktherearetwosteps:clarifying andtranscending.Clarifyingistoclarifysituations: Youseeclearlysoyouhavenomoreconfusionatthat giventime.Totranscendistouprootitaltogether, sothatrecurrentattacksdon'thappen. Q:Butif youdidagoodjobofclarifying,it wouldn't recur. R:Itwould.Thatcouldn'thappen.You'reasking toomuch.Tobeginwith,youhavetomakefriendswith - 41-yourconfusion.Thenyoucanbegintoclearupthe wholething.It'snotallthatfrightening,andit isworkable.Then,whenyoubegintoseethrough, therearenothreateningsituations.Youbeginto seethatconfusionispartofyou,andtherefore youhavetopullyourselfup.Andeverythingbecomes veryclear. Q:Yeah. R:Andbythattimeyouprobablydon'thaveany moreconfusion--justmomentaryconfusions.Maybe occasionalattacks.Youknowwhereyouareandwhat youare.Butsomehowyouhaven'tcompletelytrans-cended,becauseyoustillhaveyouandthem,which isthebiggerhang-up.Wearenottalk1ngabout curingphysicalsicknessinthiscase,butabout psychologicalsickness. Q:Yeah,butdidn'ttheconfusionariseinitially becauseyoudifferentiatedbetweenthisandthat? R:Mm-hnuil. Q:Andtherefore--R:Precisely,yeah. Q:Well,inclarifyingconfusionyouwouldalso seethroughthat. R:Notnecessarily.Youmightseethatyouhave. greaterwhichisverythreatening.Youbegin toseeeverythingveryclearlyandterrifyingly.You knowhowbulkyandstuffyandstubbornandfucked-upyouare.Andyoubegintoseethisveryclearly. It'slikereadingyourx-ray,youknow.(Laughter.) Itis.aninsultbutwecan'tgoonwithoutit.There might'beaverydelicateandmoresophisticated wayofdoingit,butsomehowthere'snopointinhiding thatparticularinconveniencefromyourself--nopoint inshelteringyourselffromthat.Doyouseethelogic? Q:Well,Ididn'tfollowthatlastpart.Imissed outonthatbecauseitseemstomethatultimately, themostyoucanhopeto.doistoseeclearlywhatis. R:Yeah,whichisnot.verypleasant. Q:Whyisthat? - 42-R:Well,youmightactuallybeabletoovercome littleexpressionsthatarecreatedbytheconfusion, buttheconfusionitselfisdeep-rooted,soyoumight feelthatitisverythreatening. Q:IguessIjustdon'tseewhyitwouldbethreat-ening. R:Youdon't? Q:No. R:Ithinkit'sverythreateningif yourealize thatyouhaveaconcreteheartoraplasticlung insideyou,andthatyouhavetoputupwithitfor therestofyourlife.Thismightbeverythreatening. Q:Yeah,butIthinkit's onlythreateningbecause wearen'tseeingit .. clearly.Ifwesawthecomplete webefrighteriedanymore. R:Ithinkthat'stooclinicalanapproach. Q:Okay. R:You'vebeenpracticingtoomuch,doctor.I'll keepaneyeonyou.(Laughter.) Q:YesterdaywhenIsaidthatIthoughtofbuddhism asacopingmechanism,IthinkIdidwhatyouwere talkingaboutatthebeginningoftonight'stalk. Itriedtocharacterizethiswholepursuitinterms ofexpectations.AndsinceImentionedthatyester-day,I'vekindofgottenabitscaredthatperhaps Ireducedittoomuch,ormadeitintosomethingwith expectations.Butyouagreedthatit mightbecharac-terizedasacopingmechanism. R:Yeah. Q:IgotatwingeofjadednessorboredomwhenI thoughtaboutitbecauseifit'sonlyacopingmech-anism,thenit wouldtendtomakemefeellikeI'm notintosomethingreal,youknow. R:Sure.Well,Ithinkthat'spartofthemethod-ology.Thepresentationoftheteachingisacoping mechanism.Butitissomethingmorethanthat. - 43-Q:Whatis ,thesomethingmore?Imean,I'veheard thatsamsaraisnirvana.I'veheardthat. R:Youheardthat?(Laughter.) Q:Okay. R:Well,wehavealongwaytogotogetthere. (Laughter.) Q:Iknow. R:Transcending isthenextstep.It's notonlyacopingmechanism,butitisactuallydealing withit.Soit'ssomething. Q:Sobuddhismisdealingwithreality. R:Well,thattakesalotofsteps.Thehinayana levelisacopingmechanism--youarequiteright; themahayanalevelisadealingmechanism;andvajrayanamayactuallybetranscending--orcuring,for thatmatter,whichisadangerouswordtomention, actually. Q:Securing? R:Curing.Well,whatdoyouthinkaboutthat? Q:i'vegottenintothehabitoftryingtoexplain inacoupleofsentenceswhatbuddhismistopeople whoaskaboutit.ButIdon'tknowthatmuchabout itmyself.Andindoingthat,I'vestartedcharacterizing itasapsychology,acopingmechanism--R:Yeah.Well,Ithinkallofthemapply,partially. Anelephantislikeapieceofleaf,or.atreetrunk, orwhatever--thesevenblindmen'sviewsofanelephant. Eachoneofthemiscorrect,butwhenwebegintoput themtogetheritturnsouttobesomethingquite different. Q:Idon'tbelieveIunderstandwhattranscending means.Youindicatedthatyoucanpossiblytranscend somethingbyseeingitwithclarityandthenbecoming friendswithitandacceptingit.I'mnotsurewhat thestepsare,orwhattr.anscendingmeansinessence. R:It'squitesimple.Onceyouhaveseenveryclearly andmadefriendswiththesituationandalsoare - 44-actuallyabletoexperiencethatparticularconfusion, transcendingisnolongerthreatening.Itistrans-parent.Thatparticularexperienceofconfusionno longerexistsasanopponent,orasopposition--it's partofyoucompletely. Q:All.right.Canthatbedonethroughmeditation? R:Onlythroughmeditation.It'slikecrossinga river.Beforeyoucrosstheriver,there'stheother shore.Andwhile youareontheriver,crossingthe river,youbegintoseethattheplaceyoucamefrom isalsotheothershore(aswellastheothershore beingtheother. shore).Andthenasyougoonand youbegintogettotheotherside,youbegintorealize thatitis deal--it'sjustanothershore. Andinfact,it'sthissidealready. Q:Iwonder,inseeingdifferentthingsinoneself, aboutthedifferencebetweenseeingthemandseeing themclearly.Whendoesitbecomeapointofindulging andperpetuatingthem? R:Idon'tseeanyproblemsthere. Q:Ido.Whenarewefurtherperpetuatingthem rather:thanjustacknowledgingthemandthem, feelingthem? R:Well,it'sallpartofthesamething.Yougo throughdifferentdensities.Youmightseewith yourowneyes,nakedeyes;thenyoumightwearspec-tacles;thenyoumightlookthroughbinoculars.It's adifferentkindofseeingthrough.Inthebeginning youseethehaze,thesilhouetteoracollectionof colors,maybe--butnotreallythetexture.Andthen asyougocloser,youbegintoseethingsmuchmore personally.Thewholethingbecomesveryreal.And oneoftheinterestingpointsaboutthatisthatwhen youbegintoseeeverythingveryprecisely,itis actuallyverypainful,irritatinglypainful.According tothescriptures,anordinaryperson'sexperienceof realityislikeastrokeofhaironyourtongue; whereasBuddha'sexperienceofrealityislikea strokeofhaironyoureye.Soit'sverypainful tobeBuddha,fromthatpointofview,becausedirect-nessbecomesveryclear,veryprecise.Sobecoming enlightenedisnotallthatgreatfun.Certainly youdon'tbecomejustajellyfish. - 45-Q:Wouldyoupleasesaysomethingaboutovercoming obsessionasopposedtotranscendingconfusion? R:Ithinkthat'ssayingthesameObsession isconfusion.Obsessionisapproachingthingsfrom thepointofviewofamonomaniac,andconfusionis approachingfromthegeneralangle.Idon'tseeany differencesbetweenthetwo. Q:Well,confusionwouldbeaconfusionofchoice betweenthisandthat. R:No,notreally.Whatwearetalkingaboutis confusionitself--itsnumbness,itsdullness,its blurryedges--ratherthanconfusingthatandthis. Thatwouldbeapsychoticlevelof But wearetalkingabouttheordinaryneuroticlevel. Q:Butobsessiondoesn'talwayshavetheformof dullness..Itcartbeveryhard-edged. R:Itcould.It'sdullandsharpatthesametime. That'swhyyouaresoattractedtooneparticular thingallthetime.Sometimesitpushesyoubackand yougetconfused,andsometimesitbecomesveryclear andsoyouareattracted.Youthinkyoujustabout havetheanswer,andthensomehowyoudon'thaveit. Soyouaretossedbackandforthlikeayo-yo.The wholethingisveryenergyconsuming.Andintheend thewholethingbecomesverydazed. Q:Apdobsessionisovercomeinthesamewayas transcendingconfusion? R:Isayso. - 46-TALK##5"DISCIPLINE" Iwouldliketodiscussafewmorethingsin connectionwithyesterday'sdharma:clarifyingcon-fusion.Therearesomepracticaldetailsthatneed to ~ lookedatfromthepointofviewofpersonal discipline.Personaldisciplineislargelybased onasenseoffreedom.Wheneverthereisasenseof freedom,thatfreedombecomesreal,butatthesame timethepersonwhoactuallyexperiencesfreedom becomesverylonely.Butsuchapersondoesnot particularlysearchforcompanionshipinorderto overcomethesenseofloneliness.Hedevelops.akind ofconfidencepersonallywithinhimself,andacon-tentmentthatgoeswiththeloneliness. Thatsenseoffreedomorfearlessnessbrings what'sknownasthreefolddiscipline.Firstofall, thereisausterity,ordisciplineitself,inwhich thereisasenseofimmovabilityinone'ssanity. Thatis,youdonothavetobesubjecttoseductions anymore,particularlythoseofthetheistictradition, wkichonlyprovidefurtherbacking(forego).That senseofself-sufficiencybecomesanimportantpoint. - 4 7-Whenyoubecomepersonallyinvolvedinthepractice, thenthereisnofeelingofpoverty,nofeelingof confusion.Thenyourdisciplineorexertionbe-comesverytlear.Yourinterestintheworldbecomes veryclearandsharp,andinsomesense,theworld becomespartofyourplayground.Italsobecomes anexpressionofyourconviction. Youbegintotrusttheworldali tmore, soyoudon'tgeneratepanic.Theworldbeco.messome-whatcomfortabletolivein--notbecauseitisenter-taining,partjcularly,butbecauseit isright,perfectly Whenyoucanswimproperly,youcantrustthe water,thatitisnotgoingtodrownyou,andyoucan floatveryeasily.Thereforethefirstqualityof discipline,exertionorbasicdiscipline, isitselftwofol_d.Itisapersonalexperienceof bothopennesstooneselfandopennesstotheother. Thereisasenseofwarmthtakingplacein basicdiscipline.Andthat-warmthautomatically bringsasenseofworkability.Naturally,occasional thought-chatter,occasionalpotentialpanic,and discontentmentofallkindswilloccur.Thatdoesn't meantosaythatit willhappenallthetime,but therewillobviouslybethatkindofhassle.Never-theless,thathassledoesn'tbecomeabigdeal--it's justanothertipplein pond.Thesenseof disciplinebecomesveryreal,inthatyouareactually workingtwenty-fourhoursaday,allthetime.You arenotworkingsohardthatgettirednorareyou workingtoolittle,sothatyougetlazy. Thenthereistheseconddiscipline,meditation. InthiscaseitismoreabsorptionthanAbsorptiondoesn'tmeangettingintoastateof trancebutdevelopinganinterestinrelatingwith the andbecomingequallyinspiredbytheresponse fromtheworld.Thereisasenseofmutualatmosphere, andsomesenseofhigherness--notonthelevelof pleasureorpain,butjustasenseoftheatmosphere beingripe,freshandready.Thisisacompletestate ofnonaggression. Onefindsreminderstakingplaceinalldirections, ineverylittleeventthattakesplaceinyourlife, whenthereiswatchfulness,mindfulness,andasense ofnonaggression.Remindersdon'tcometoyouas aggressiveimposition,theyjustpresentthemselves. Ifyouhavemadelittlemistakes,theybounceback. Sothereareconstantreminderstakingpositivelyandnegatively.That'sthe of - 48-absorption--thatyouhavecreatedthatopenspace, opensituation.Andwithin thatatmosphere,all kindsofgrowthcantakeplace. Thethirddisciplineisknowledge,whichis theintellectualaspectofdiscipline.Thereis asenseofseeing pureemotionalityandpre-conception,allowingasenseofrealtruthtobegin towork.Allthreedisciplinesareconnectedwith asenseoffreedomandloneliness.Unlessthere's thatatmosphereoffreedomandloneliness,honeof thesedisciplines developbecultivated be-causeyouwillbelatchingontosomebodyelseor somethingelse.Intermsoftheintellectualaspect ofit,itisimportantthatthere's noneedforreferencepoints.Whenyoubecomea scholar,yourefertobooks,authorities,andhistory. Butinthiscaseofintellectualization,noconfirmation isneededandyoubegintocutthroughunnecessary bullshit.Thereseemstobegeneraldirectness,and asenseofimmenseclaritybeginstodawnonyou. Thissometimestendstocreateasenseofirritation, asif yourpupilsweredilatedandyoubeganto seemoreclearlythanyoushould.Theredsbecome morered,thepinksmorepink,andthebluesmore blue.Thereisthatpossibility.However,that doesn'treallyinspireyoutoclosedown.Instead itcreatesakindofladder,onwhicheachtime youtakeastepyougouphigherandhigher,become moreandmoreclear,andcreateamoreopenkind ofsituation. Onthewholethisprocessbecomesverypowerful. It.asenseoffreedomandatthesame. time,feelsonefromanaiveideaoffreedom.At. thatlevel,. poweroverothersorthesenseofimposing one'sowntriponothersbecomesirrelevantbecause thereisnoneedforit.Noconfirmationisnecessary,no conqueringofterritoryisnecessary.Everythingbecomes veryclear,crispanddirect.Suchclaritygivesyouaslight painintheheartorchest,insomesense,becauseeverything's overwhelminglyasitis.Occasionallythereisatemptation torunbacktooldhabits,andsnuggleupinyour dirtyblanket,(laughter)whichsmellsveryhomeyand secure,likethegoodolddays. Thereisalwaysthepotentialofafreakout. WhenItalkaboutfreakoutinthiscase,Imeana senseofburstingoutintoextremes.Butthat's justathreat,ortheuncertaintywhichbringsa threat.Actually,itneverhappens.Onealways wishessomethingdramaticwillhappentokeepyou - 49-companysoyoudon'thave tobelonelyallthe, time. Butatthispoint,thereisnosuchluck.Ithink thosethreedisciplinesactastheactualmechanism ofclarifyingortranscendingconfusion,(thethird dharma).Thatseemstobeit. Ifyou'dliketoaskquestions,_you'rewelcome. Question:TherewasatimewhenIthoughtthatI hadexperiencedsomeunderstandingofkarmaandits effectonmylife--likehavingapackageofnew seedsthatseemtogetautomaticallyplantedat thesametime.Whatyouaresayingnowmakesme thinkthatmaybetheexperienceoflonelinessis somewhatfamiliar,andthatthereisachoiceof indulging,which1 isliketryingtoreplantthe seeds,orexperiencingthefreedomtonotplant seeds.Isthatright? Rinpoche:Well,thelonelinessthatwearetalking aboutatthispointissomewhatdifferent.Weare talkingaboutlonelinesswithintheexperienceof freedom,whichismuchsubtler, andmuchmoreall-pervasive.Theredoesn'tseemtobeadesireto recreatecompanionshiporentertainment.Possibly thereisnochancetorecreatekarmicdebtsorsow karmicseeds. Q:Soatthispoint.theydon'tevenbotherto sendyouanewpackageofseeds? R:Well,itseemstobeunnecessary.Thatkindof atmospheredoesn'tapply.atthispoint.It'sa differentkindofgreenhouse. Q:Isthepainorconfusionwhichseemstoget moreintense,self-existent,ordoesitneeda perceiver? R: then kind from Q: Ithinkit'sIfthere'saperceiyer, thepainisn'tclear.Youalwayscreatesome ofnumbness,orshell,toprotectyourself impositionfrompain. Soit'salwaysthere? R:Yeah.That'sagoodquestion. Q:AtwhateverpointofdevelopmentIseemtobe, I'mseeingalot.ofmyaggression.However,Iamal-- so-waysinvolvedin.relationshipsbasedonattraction/ repulsion,likeyoutalkaboutinCuttingThrough SpiritualMaterialism.AsIbegintobemoreaware ofit,itbecomesmorepainful.Isthereanywayat thispoint,beforehavingdevelopedthewarmthand. generositytowardsmyselfthat~ canfeelittowards others,anywaythatIcoulduserelationshipsas atool? R:Well,It i n ~ thatthereisnootherchoice. Wearenotparticularlytryingtobecomemonksor nuns,torunawayfromtheworld,orbecomedesert hermits.Wehavetoconductourbusiness,wehave toworkwithourbreadandbutter,andwehaveto maintainKarme-Choling.(Laughter.)Therelation-shipsituationisaworkingbasisandaveryimportant one.Althoughthewholeapproachmaynotbe ideallyright,appropriate,orsane,thereisstill anelementofsanityifonebeginstotakeaninterest inarelationshipratherthanjustindulginginit. Itcouldbeverypowerfullybeneficial. Q:Thankyou. Q:Wouldyousaythesamethingaboutmarriageand relationshipsthatarebasedontrustandclose livingtogether? R:Well,whenItalkaboutrelationships,Iam talkingaboutanything--havingapuppydogwithyou (laughter),orbeingmarried,orhavingamosquito onyournose,whatever. Q:Rinpoche,lastnightyouweretalkingabout thestrokeofthehaironthepalm,andthetongue, andintheeyes,andnowyouaretalkingabout seeingclearlybeingpainful.Ifthisthreefold mechanismorseeingclearlyhelpstotranscend confusion,thatseemstomakeyoufeelhigh.I don'tunderstandhowtheintensityofseeingclearly ispainful.Itseemsjusttohelptoseethe sillinessofeverythingyouengagein.Andthat feelsgood! R:Well,itwouldfeelgood,butgoodwouldbe ~ good,soyouwouldfeelsomepainwithit.If youfeelgoodsuperficially,everythingislovey-dovey andfine.Butifyoureallyfeelgood,ithasalittle bitofpaininit. Q:Butthatdoesn'tseemlikeaverypainfulpain. - 51-R:Itis.Itisvery.painfulpain.Itdepends onh.owgoodyoufeel.(Laughter.) Q:Well,okay.Couldyoudescribethatpaina little bitmore?Youseethatthereispain,soit isn'tquitesopainful. R:Painisexperience.Maybeyouareconfusing twoissuesthere.Whenwetalkaboutpain,weare nottalkingaboutconceptualpain.Wearetalking aboutactualexperience,overwhelmingexperience, directexperience.Andwhenyouseeclearly,you haveaveryclearexperience,whichisalmostover-whelming. Q:Butthereisnothingyoucandoaboutit? R:Thereisnopointindoingthat.Thereisnot evenadesiretodoanything.Itisnotpainin thesenseofbotheringyou,butpaininthesenseof itsbeingpenetrating. Q:Coulditbecalledsomethingotherthanpain inthatcase? R:Ican'timagineanything.(Laughter.)You couldcallitinsightifyoulike!Thatisavery euphemistictermforpain,insomesense.Itis pain;ithurts;butitdoesn'tbringyoudown, particularly.Usuallywhenweareinp_ain,we panic,thenwefeelmorepainfulandwecallthe doctor.Whenthedoctorislate,wepanicmore. Andif wehaveabaddoctor,wepanicevenmore. Noneofthatisinvolved--itissheer, pain.It sthesamekindofpain'aswhenyou're inlovewithsomebody.You'reinlovesomuchit hurts--sweetandsourdish. Q:Onthesubjectofcommunicationandloneliness: youmentionedinanearlierlecturethatthepossi-bilityofdirectcommunication,whenoneisnotusing anotherpersonforsomeonetofightwithortoget sympathyfrom,couldbe"heavenly."(Ithinkthat wasyourword.)Nowyousaythatwhenonehasthis clarity,itishighlylonely.Iwouldthinkthat thispossibilityofcommunicationwouldhavesome amelioratingeffectonthisloneliness.Couldyou discussthisabit,please? R:Well,lonelinessisactuallypleasurableat thispoint.It'scourtship,somekindofhoneymoon. Youfeellonely,very.desolate,andthere'snothing - 52-aroundyou.Youareinthemiddleofadesert, whichfeelsveryspaciousandlonely.Youcan't layyourtripsonanybodyandtheycan'tlaytheir trip'sonyou.isverybeautifulfrom thatpointofview.Ithinkthatiswhatthe Christianmysticstalkabout,concerningthe benefityougetoutofJesus'prayer.Theheart beatbecomesJesus'prayer.,ratherthanyouactually sayingtheprayeryourself.Christbecomesyouand youbecomeChrist,wfiichisallanexpressionof lonelinessbecausethereisnoChristthere--you aredoingthewholething.Youfeellonelyatthe sametime.Well,wehavetotrytofindout.I thinkthat'stheonlyway--wordscan'treally accomodatethat. Q:Ithinkyousaidthatthestateoffreedomwas sortofaprerequisiteforthethreedisciplines thatyoumentioned.IsthatR-:AsfarasI'mconcerned: Q:I'mhavingalogicalproblem.Yousaidthat thethreedisciplineswerealsothemechanismfor transcendingconfusion? R:It'sanenvironmentalsituation,andif you're tryingtofindlogic,youprobablywon'tfindit. Shouldwehavetherooffirstofshouldwehave thefoundationfirst?Ifwewant.tobuildahouseJ weshouldhavearoof.Weshouldthenhavewalls tostandtheroofon,ortheotherwayaround, whatever.(Laughter.)Weshouldhaveaplumbing systeminitandframesaroundit.Wheredowe begin?Shouldwehavethemoneyfirstorshould wehavetheplanfirst?It'saviciouscircleif youbegintolookforthelogic.Ithappensimultan-eously.Thereisasenseoftranscendingconfusion atthebeeinnine.andthenthereisasenseof freedom.Butyoucan't.iustliveonthatoarticular freedom1becauseitdoesn'treallymeanmuchofanything. You'refree--sowhat?Thatiswhyyouhavea practiceinvolvedwiththis:discipline,ausorption, andknowledge.Youhaveafoundationfirst,then youbuildtheframes,thenyouputtheroofonit. Ibelievethat'strue. Q:Youmentionedthatwarmthhadapurpose,erasing oreliminatingaggression.Andyetit seem thatitwoulddevelopoutofalackofaggression. Wouldyoudevelopwarmthfromthelackofaggression? - -R:Notnecessarily,becauseifyoudevelop warmthwithoutaggression,thereisnoenergy.There's nothingtobewarm--orhot,forthatmatter.That warmthhastobegeneratedby. somethingorother, whichisaggression,insomesense.Aggressionhas alotofelements.Ithasane