you'll loo akt pag 4e of thi documents professor, you'l, l · and obscurantis bumt an...

18080. PROF. MATTHEWS

Now, Professor, from what follows I want to make clear

that I am not at this moment doubting the sincerity of

your own religious conviction, whatever that may be -

I want to make that clear at the outset. I want to put to

you whether to your knowledge there was any section of

tie African National Congress which was prepared to make

a cynical use of religion in the liberatory struggle?—

What do you mean by making a cynical use of religion?

Cynical in this sense, that while rejecting

religious conviction itself, it recognised the religious

beliefs on the part of the masses and explored avenues

to exploit the religious convictions of the mass of the

following - - in that sense cynical?— Are you suggesting

that that was something done by the African National Con-

gress?

I'm asking you whether you as a leader of the

African National Congress ever discerned such a tendency

in any quarter?— No, I have not.

Now, Professor, I 'd like you to give us the

benefit of your comments on a typewritten document - -

unfortunately the first page is missing - - this document

is called " C . M . I " , and the evidence in this Court has

been that it was found in possession of accused Myakeso

?— Oh, yes.

Well, perhaps I should hand you the document

?— Yes, I 'd like to see it .

My lords, a portion of this document, the first

portion of it , was read into the record beginning on

page 3847. I shall also refer to the concluding part of

the document which was not at that stage read in. If


you'll look at page 4 of this document, Professor, you'll

see at the top of the page there is a sentence "What we

need"; do you see that?— Oh, yes, I see it , page 3.

Yes, I beg your pardon. It says: "We will not

"be able to sustain the fight against Bantu Education;un-

less it is based on the struggle it must be linked con-

sciously with the plan for A fr ica " . . . ?— I don't see that.

Well, would you turn to the next paragraph "What

must we do" - that's on page 4 of the exhibit?— Page 4,

yes.

It says; " ( l ) The first thing is that we must

resolutely and irrevocably turn our backs on the present

system in South Africa. The rejection of the oppressor

system of education would be the most significant method

of indicating our disgust and opposition to the present

set-up;by getting out of Verwoerd's schools we will be

setting ourselves on the hard, difficult and narrow path

of struggle towards a Peoples Democracy". As far as I've

read, Professor, I take it you are in agreement with

those sentiments?— Yes, I don't see any harm in that.

Then, if you look at paragraph 2 , still under

the heading of "What must we do", you'll see that the

author says: "We must discover and organise the resources

at our disposal"5 do you see that?— Yes, I see that.

Then there are various sub-paragraphs starting

off (a ) , (b) , (c) , (d)?— That's right.

Would you turn to paragraph (d) please where

the author says; "We have to find out the literature suit-

able for all levels and find out what we have at our dis-

posal"?-- Yes.

And then he considers what they've got at their

18082 PROP. MATTHEWS

disposal and would you look at sub-paragraph (iv) where he goes on to say: still considering the literature which is suitable % "What part can the Bible play in our cultural struggle? Here we are conscious of our strong view on religion 'the Opium of the people'. But that view is not shared and will not be shared by many. In any case our historical position and our practical concrete situation might enable the Bible to be not the vehicle of mysticism and obscurantism but an effective instrument against Fascism properly used, just as in certain concrete situations Par-liamentary democracy is a facade behind which the Capital-ist Dictatorship operates and yet in times of Fascism be-comes something which the Progressive Movement is bound to fight for and protect. In the various African languages the Bible as literature is unsurpassed, and it is also a good cover for the system we will introduce. It would be interesting for instance to compel the Government to ban the Bible or to ban 'religious instruction'. It would considerably strengthen the democratic movement. Through it also we can get powerful support for certain powerful but vascillating groups. The mass we are dealing with is very religious and expends a great deal of energy in religious activities. We could perhaps harness some of this wasted enthusiasm to the service of the Movement," Have you ever seen this document before?— No, I have not.

I'll tell you why I ask, Professor, because this morning my learned friend put to you a document ZKM. 28 and I think you said that you had no idea where this docu-ment came from?— Which is that?

Just look at ZKM.28; this is headed "The struggle for culture"?— Yes, that's right.

ZKM.28 reflects manuscript corrections in some

places in ink; they are not in your writing?— No.

But there are such corrections, not so?— Yes.

Now, Professor, would you look at page 4 of

ZKM.28?— Yes.

There is a passage there entitled "What we need"

?— Yes.

And if you compare that with the paragraph "What

must we do" in CM.l you'll see that the introductory is the

same. It says; "The first thing is that we must resolutely

and irrevocably turn our back on the Verwoerd system of

education . . . " - well, it substitutes the Verwoerd

system for the present system but substantially the

words are the same. Do you see that?— Yes, I see that.

Now, if you look at ZKM.28, still under that

paragraph - - my lords, this was read in at page 4471 of

the record - - there occurs the following portion: "We

cannot, of course, take the same attitude as the groups

who maintain we cannot do it. They despise the people and

have no faith in the creative capacity and tenacity of the

Africans. The Kenya Africans are an example of how the

Africans can give up much for his freedom. Nor can we

adopt the Trotski-ite view reflected in the Unity Movement

paper 'Torch'. After telling the people for years and

years that the people are ready they now say the boycott

of schools is wrong". Professor, what do you understand

there by the Trotski-ite view, reflected in the Unity Move-

ment paper 'Torch'; what sort of a view is that, a

Trotski-ite view?— I don't know.

(COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 2.15 P.M)


ON (EBE COURT RESUMING;

MR. HOEXTERs Professor, when we adjourned at

lunch time I think you had before you ZKM.28, that is the

document found in your possession?— Yes.

And you were comparing it with CM.l, found in the

possession of the accused Myikeso?— Yes.

Now, I had referred you to the strong similarity

of language in two paragraphs?— Yes.

"What we need" in ZKM.28, and "Tfhat must we do"

in CM.l?— That's right, yes.

Now, if you'd look further in ZKM.28, on page 6

of that exhibit, sub-paragraph (iv) it sayss "We must see

what part the Bible must play in our cultural struggle"

?— Yes.

"Whist it is true that the Bible has been used

very much as an instrument against peoples' movements, as

opium of the people, yet we must recognise the Bible as

literature and the builder of stable ethical concepts; it

might be that the Freedom Movement will be the agency to

realise the revolutionary possibilities of the Bible in

Africa from the point of view of preparing for a free

Africa. But in any case whatever many of us think Africans

are very religious and in our present historical situation

it might well be that the Bible could play a tremendously

progressive role as against the attacks of the tyrants.

It will also be interesting for instance to compel the

Government to ban the Bible or to ban 'religious instruction'

Through the Bible we would also win the support of certain

powerful but vascillating groups. Let us harness the

tremendous religious enthusiasm that exists among our

18085* 18098, PROP. MATTHEWS

people to the freedom chariot"?— Yes.

Now, Professor, you agree with me that there is a

striking similarity of thought and language in these two

documents?— Yes.

Seeing the two documents together, does that re-

5

fresh your memory at all , as to the source of ZKM.28?— No,

no, it doesn't.

Because, Professor, I would suggest to you that

you obtained ZKM.28 from the accused Myikeso?— I don't

know, I'm not sure about that; I cannot say. 10

Is it possible?— I think it 's possible, yes.

Professor, when did you read this document ZKM.28

for the first time?— I must have read it at the time when

I got it .

Now can you suggest why it was sent to you?— Well, 15

I suppose it was sent to me for me to see the idea of the

writer.

Yes?-- But I 'd like to say, of course, in connec-

tion with this matter about the Bible that the writer here

obviously is doing what has been said about other people, 20

endeavouring to cite the Bible for their own purposes, and

I think I could remind you . . . .

To what document are you referring now?-— I am

referring to this one, sub-paragraph (iv) - which talks

about the use of the Bible in certain connections. And

I was suggesting to you that it is not peculiar to this

writer. I can remember that certain factions of the

Dutch Reformed Church have tried to use the Bible to support

the policy of Apartheid.

Now what I want to know from you is thiss 30 what sections, or what groups have sought to use the Bible

18086. PROP. MATTHEWS

not in the way in which it is suggested in ZKM.28 - what

groups or sections have tried to use the Bible in the

way which is suggested in the document CM.l before you -

in the passages I quoted you just before lunch time. Will

you turn to that CM.l?— Yes, I 'd like to refer to it .

Page 4 or 5 of-the Exhibit, paragraph 2 (d ) ( iv ) .

Have a quick look at that. "What part can the Bible play

in our cultural struggle. Here we are conscious of our

strong view on religion, the opium of the people". Now,

what group of persons had this strong view?— I don't

know. As I said before the Devil probably has that strong

view.

Yes; now apart from political thought in the

Eastern Cape, is that view to your knowledge endorsed by

any school of political thought in the world?-— What school

of political thought?

That religion is the opium of the people?— Oh,

I see, yes; I believe it is the view held by Communists.

It has been expressed.

And then you'll see in that same paragraph the

writer goes on to consider 'Our historical position'?—

Yes.

And then he says; . . . ?— You're reading from

CM.l now?

CM.l,yes, and then he says; "Just as in certain

concrete situations Parliamentary democracy is a facade

behind which Capitalist dictatorship operates. . . . . " and

then " In the various African languages the Bible as

literature is unsurpassed, and it is also a good cover

for the system we would introduce"?— Yes.

Does that indicate anything to you? This is


apparently dealing with the campaign against Bantu Educa-

tion. Now when this writer says, "Biblical study can be

a good cover for the system we will introduce", do you

understand what the author means there?— No, I don't know

what he means by 'the system which we will introduce.'

Yes. The author of this paragraph seems to hold

strong views against Capitalism?— Possibly, yes.

No, not possibly?— Yes, yes. . .

Isn't it obvious, Professor, from what he says?—

Yes, that's alright - from the wording he uses, yes.

In fact, taking this paragraph as a whole,

Professor, would you be inclined to say that the author

was a Communist as you understand the creed of Communism?—

No, I wouldn't; I wouldn't say that because the creed of

Communism - - what is the creed of Communism? I don't know

about the creed of Communism. I have indicated to you that

I know that that phrase 'the opium of the people' is used

by Communists, but I wouldn't say tbrt I know the creed

of Communism.

Well, you don't know what a Trotski-ite is?—

No; I have said I don't know what a Trotski-ite is , except that

/ from the literal interpretation of the word it might mean

a follower of Trot ski.

Yes?-- Yes.

Professor, you're a man of a very broad education-

al background; do you think that you would be able to

spot, to detect Communist tendencies in a political move-

ment? For example, if there were Communists in the

African National Congress - in the Eastern Cape - who were

putting across a Communist line - - do you think you would

have sufficient knowledge to detect it?— Well, I would have


to know what you mean by a Communist line; that this par-

ticular line they are putting forward is a Communist line.

What I mean is that it is consistent with the

Communist theory, as to the State, the nature of the State

and the nature of the ideal society for which Communists

strive - in very broad terms?— Well, now, I woQld say

that I am not sufficiently familiar with that theory -

the Communist theory of the State and so on - to be able to

say.

So that it 's possible that there could be people

who are propounding Communist theory and you would fail to

detect it?— Well, surely what we go by in the African

National Congress - - we've got certain broad aims which

are set out in our Constitution - - now, that is the test

that we apply to anybody who works in the A.N.C. We don't

apply political tests and say "What is your theory regard-

ing the nature of the State and so on", but "Do you adhere

or do you not adhere to the principles of the African

National Congress". That's all we apply.

Including the means whereby the objects are to

be achieved?— Yes, exactly; that's what we apply.

Now, this paragraph in CM.l, does that seen to

you to be consistent with the view and policy of the

African National Congress?— You mean the whole document?

No, just this paragraph...?— About the use of

the Bible?

Yes?— No, I wouldn't say that we would approve

of the use of the Bible in the Movement, in the sense

indicated by the author of this article. After all , mem-

bersof the African National Congress I think would resent


the idea of the people wanting to use the Bible as a cover

for something else, rather than the objects of the African

National Congress.

Now, Professor, I 'd like to put a further docu-

ment to you, and I 'd like the benefit of your comments.

This is a typewritten document entitled "There is a need

of new people for both camps, Left and Right. N.B. Re

education, transformed into Bantu Education." This is an

article on Bantu Education, Professor, and it starts off

by saying; "There can be no doubt that we are now in the

most decisive stage of the struggle against Fascism in

South Africa", and then it considers contemporary history

in Germany during the Hitler regime, and it says that in

order to maintain white supremacy the Nats have transformed

education into Bantu education, but it says, "The first

metamorphosis occurred under the Smuts and Hertzog regimes

that Bantu e ducation is merely a step further in the same

process"?— Yes.

Then on page 1 it has a paragraph headed;

"The need for new people", and it says; "The Nats realise

the truth, that with the present type of African people

who are freedom thirsty and demand for a democratic South

Africa, where there would be a common ownership of the

means of production other than the private ownership of

the means of production, and disgusted with the white

domination and apartheid, white supremacy will no longer

survive in the not too far years in South Africa. It is

for this reason that the Nats foresee the necessity of

new African people who will not interfere with Capitalism,

exploitation of man by man in the country. The building of


Capitalism needs something more than the building of new

factories and power stations. It needs new people, people

who will be willing to support Capitalism and accept white

supremacy, oppression an'd exploitation of man by man, who

will not think of struggling for their citizenship. The

whites want to dominate and control the mind of the African

child from early age so that the type of African amenable

to a white supremacy is produced ^without this technique

baaskap and cheap labour cannot be existing in South

Africa." Then a little later on he says: "The liberation

movement, on the other hand, is also in need of new people

comprising the camp of Materialism, other than that of

Idealism. Whilst the oppressor is making ways and means

to keep the oppressed in chains for ever the latter must

resist and find immediate ways to escape oppression."

Then he goes on to consider the campaign against Bantu

education and on page 3 of this document you'll find the

following passages "Those people who would like to launch

the boycott only on condition that it proceeds smoothly

and in an orderly manner, that the parents throughout the

country immediately go on action and withdraw their chil-

dren from Verwoerd's schools at one time, but guarantees

against defeat beforehand^ that the boycott goes forward

along the broad, free straight path to victory - - that

there shall not be here and there some . . . .sacrifices ,

shall not have to climb up the narrowest paths, but make

our way through most difficult and most dangerous paths

- - such men are only theorists; they have not yet freed

themselves from the pedantry of bourgeoise intellectual-

ism, and would fall back a gain and again into the camp of

the oppressing class." Now, Professor, the passages that


I have read to you, these passages - do they seemito be

consistent to you with the viewpoint of the African

National Congress in the struggle against Bantu education

?— No, I wouldn't say altogether. After all , it 's a

jumble of all sorts of things put together there, and

the African National Congress policy on Bantu Education

is quite straightforward.. It doesn't have to rely on

expositions of that nature which, as I say, are very con-

fused.

It may be jumbled and confused, but one thing

appears with tolerable clarity, and that is that the author

of this document sees Bantu Education as an instrument for

the preservation of a Capitalistic system . . ?— Well, as

an instrument - - I imagine he means for the moulding of

the people and getting them to accept the situation in

which they live. With that I would agree. That is the

object of Bantu Education.

But the author also goes futrher. He seems to

think that the campaign against Bantu Education should be

or is conducted as a part of the struggle in the fight

against Capitalism?— Yes, that's his view.

Y e s . . . ? — But that's not t he A .N.C . view.

Again, by your lights, would you detect a Com-

munist tendency in this article from the passages I have

read to you?— I wouldn't say that. I mean, one would have

to examine the thing much more closely than that. Just

listening to it as you read it to me here, I cannot give

an affirm tive answer. . . by covering all the views of

the writer on a variety of topics.

Well, the writer himself has lightened our

task because this last paragraph which I read to you which


ends with a criticism of the people who lave not yet freed

themselves from the pedantry of bourgeojse intellectual-

ism and so on - - ?— Now what is that supposed to mean?

The pedantry of bourgoise intelle ctualism?

I don't know, but the author appears to know,

because next to it he has written in ink 'Leninism states

this very clearly'?— Well, supposing the author does

that, but you cannot blame that on the A.N.C.

Well, I'm not sure that you can't, Professor?—

I'm sure you ca' 't blame it on the A.N.C.

This is written by T.T.Tshume, Acting President

of the A.N.C. Youth League, Cape?— Yes.

And evidently it was written for publication

because it says "Editor please kindly publish this in

connection with the Bantu Education in the 'Fighting

Talk', T .Tshume" ?— That' s right.

Now, do you find it surprising at all?— Find

what surprising?

That Tshume should write this article?— I do

not find it surprising.

In his capacity as Acting President of the

A.N.C. Youth League, Cape?— No, I don't find it sur-

prising; I mean Tshume even though he is Acting President

of the Youth League is entitled to express his personal

views.

Professor, it is true, is it not, that the

A.N.C. often exhorted its members to read 'Fighting Talk'

?— Yes, that is true.

Now, let me put a hypothetical case to you.

Assuming that this article occurred in 'Fighting Talk"

under the name of Tshume and reciting the fact that he


was Acting President of the A.N.C. Youth League?— Yes.

Do you think that it would be fair to say that

a reader of the magazine might infer this to be African

National Congress Youth League policy?— No, I think the

reader would not be entitled to infer that. Tshume does

not say there that he is expressing the views of the

African National Congress Youth League. He is indicating

an office that he holds, but that does not necessarily

mean that he is expressing the view of that organisation.

Why does he indicate the office he holds?— I

suppose he wants people to know who he is, to identify

him.

BEKKER Js Was that article published? i

MR. HOEXTER; My lord, not so far as I know.

My lord, it was found in the possession of a person called

Ruth Pirst. Do you know such a person, Professor?— Yes,

I know Ruth Pirst.

Who was she, Professor?— She was an accused in

the Preparatory Examination.

Do you know anything else about her? What her

activities were?— I believe she is connected with "New

Age" .

Do you know if she was connected with 'Fighting

Talk'?— I don't know that.

Do you know anything about the Editorial Board

of 'Fighting Talk'?— No, I don't know anything about it.

Did you read 'Fighting Talk'?— From time to time

I did get issues. I wasn't a regular reader.

And do you recall that when you were on the

National Executive people were encouraged to read 'Fighting

Talk'?— Yes. •


And not merely in your own publications, but

in your annual reports?— Yes.

Why, Professor?— Because those particular

papers provided space for . . .

Por articles of this sort?— Por articles, yes;

not necessarily of this sort. Por articles of different

sorts. Why do you say 'of this sort'.

Because I wantto know what your impression is;

did you have the idea that 'Pighting Talk' was a publica-

tion that would publish material of this sort?—Wot only

of that sort. ^'Pighting Talk' has published an article

of mine which is of an entirely different sort.

BEK3ER J; If there is no proof that that

article was published, can you make any point of it?

MR. HOEXTER; Certainly, my lord, with respect.

The only inference is from the evidence relating to where

it was found coupled with what appears - I put the signa-

ture to the witness . . , .

BEKKER J; The evidence is that that article was

found in the possession of Ruth Pirst with a request that

it should be published.

MR. HOEXTERs Yes,in 'Pighting Talk' , my lord.

And the inference is that it was written by Tshume.

BEKKER Js But do we know whether it was pub-

lished in 'Pighting Talk'?

MR. HOEXTERs I don't know, my lord. With res-

pect, my lords, I am concerned at this moment not with

enquiring into whether the plan was achieved, but vtet

the plan was, and it appears that it was sent to 'Pight-

ing Talk' with the express intention that it should be

published in it, and that it should be published apparently


in connection with the campaign gainst Bantu Education.

With respect, my lord . . . .

BEKKER J ; Well, it can only open a lot of spe-

culation - - there is no proof that it was published - -

one can speculate . .

MR. HOEXTER: That may affect 'Fighting Talk' ,

my lord, but it has nothing to do with the intentions of

the author . .

BEKIER J; Yes, that's alright.

MR. HOEXTER; Well, I'm only concerned at the moment,

n$r lord, with respect, with that. Now, Professor, yester-

day, as far as I can recollect, your evidence about the

three lectures, "The World we live in" , "The Country we

live in" and "Change is Needed", was to the effect that

for a variety of reasons they were not really employed in

the Eastern Cape?— Yes. We did not officially distribute

them.

Who distributed them?-- As I say we received them

jbr distribution but we did not distribute them.

Why not, Professor?— I indicated that if they

were to be distributed we would have wished them to have

been translated into Xosa, and that we did not have the

necessary funds for doing this, for getting them distributed.

Well, wasn't the English version distributed?—

I don't know; it may have been found with a number of peo-

ple but it was not distributed by the Cape Province.

Whose function normally would it be to distribute

lectures of this sort? What particular accused would be

vested with the duty to do so?— I beg your pardon? ;

I beg your pardon; what particular member of

your organisation would be vested with the duty to do this?-;-


Of our organisation?

Yes?— Itwould "be the secretary of course.

And at the time when these lectures reached the

A.N.C. Eastern Cape, v\ho was the secretary?— Tshnungwe

was secretary.

And do you know as a fact whether or not he dis-

tributed them, the English versions?— I know as a fact

that he didn't; that's what he told me; as a matter of

fact he asked me to authorise the financial allocation and

I didn't.

BEKXBE J; Por the translation into Xosa?— Por

the translation and distribution, yes.

Of the Xosa version?— Yes.

Was your request limited to that?— I beg your

pardon?

His request to distribute?— It was limited

to that, yes.

Not whether the English version should be dis-

tributed?— No, no; as I say, my lord, our intention, our

desire in the Cape was that material of this nature should

be translated and distributed, so that it should reach our

members in a language which they could understand. Whether

he actually distributed English versions I do not know.

MR. HOEXTER: Well, isn't it obvious, Professor?

After all , Thnungwe, apart from being secretary, was also

National Organiser for the Congress of the People?— Yes,

I know.

Isn't it obvious that on his own authority

he could proceed at once to disseminate the English ver-

sions as freely as he wished?— I don't think so; I

don't think it 's obvious. I don't think it 's obvious.


The very fact that Thnungwe took the trouble to come all

the way from ^ueenstown to consult me about its distribu-

tion in my capacity as President - - from that fact it is

clear that it was not obvious.

Do you know whether he distributed them?— I

don't know.

Now, Professor, you were questioned yesterday as

to the effect of documentary material and you made the

point that the bulk - - well, many of the members of the

Congress were I think you said semi-literate?— Yes.

That presumably would render it more necessary

to present a balanced view if one wanted to put out mate-

rial for discussion purposes - - political material?

What do you mean by a balanced view, because . . .

9

An objective v i e w — Yes; well, are you suggest

ing that because people are semi-illiterate that they

have not got a balanced view of things?

No, no, I merely suggest that they need the more

to get a balanced view; it 's important because their

equipment is limited?— I don't agree with you; I don't

agree with the suggestion that because a person to semi-

literate he is necessarily less balanced, or more prone to

what you would call propaganda than a literate person.

I think lots of literate people are even more prone to

propaganda.

Yes. Now, Professor, if in fact these lectures

had been translated into the vernacular in the Eastern

Cape, don't you think that if they had been distributed

amongst members who could only read Xosa- don't you think

that those people would have swallowed the line which is

pfesented in the He ctures?— No, I'm quite sure they would

18098, PROP. MATTHEWS

not have swallowed everything they read; just because

it is in Xosa doesn't mean they will swallow everything

they read.

You say these lectures were not translated?

They were not„

You have read these lectures, I take it , Profes-

sor?— Yes, I have read therm I heard them read at the

Preparatory.

Professor, would you look at roneoed document

and tell me what it is . Perhaps, if you wouldn't mind

just the first three lines - translating it from the 1 0

vernacular into English as you read it?— This one says

"The World We Live In" - that's what it says here.

And in what language is it?— This is in Xosa.

Just read on a bit, the first three lines?

This is an introduction of what is suggested will have to 15

be taken note of by volunteers and workers in connection

with the African National Congress, especially those who

have been chosen as propagandists of the Organisation.

Yes. Now, Professor, would you now please 20

turn to paragraph 13, on page 6, and attempt the trans-

lation of paragraph 13 please?— The World in which we

live is divided into sections. There is a section which

owns the means of production and a section which works

and which is exploited. That's what it saysc 25

Go on please?— We live in a country which has

been divided by the following countries of Imperialists -

I think that is what this word 'Abatimbi' means - like

England, America, Prance, Holland, Belgium, which oppress

and exploit the countries of Africa and Asia and South 50

in.

18099* PROF. MATTHEWS '• j r'

America.

Yes?— We live in a country which is divided bet-

tween these two sections. The section of the exploiters

and the section of the workers. It refers to a section

where exploitation is done away with, and it mentions

countries like China, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Roumania,

Czechoslovakia.

Read on, translate on please?

RUMPFF J; Is it necessary?

MR. HOEXTER\ As your lordship pleases. This

part you have translated would "be readily understandable,

I take it , to an A.N.C. member?— Who speaks Xosa?

Yes?-- Yes.

It would present no difficulty?— No, no, it 's

quite well translated.

Yes. You see, that document and several others

similar to it the evidence is were found in possession of

a man called V. Mini?— I know Mini, yes.

BEKKER J; When you say similar to it; what

do you mean?— That is to say, identical to this one?

MR. HOEXTERi Yes, plus a manuscript in pencil

plus what occurs in wax sheets. Now, Professor, I take

it you may have been mistaken earlier when you ventured

the view that the translation of these lectures was not

undertaken - or some of them?— No, I was not mistaken.

This was read and translated by Mini - that does not

mean to say it was translated officially on behalf of

the A.N.C. It certainly was not.

BEKKER J ; Well, do you know how it came to be

translated?— I don't know how Mini came to translate

i t , no. Mini did not do it on any instructions from us.


If it was translated by Mini. The evidence is that it

was found in his possession but I don!t know if it was

translated by him.

MR. HOEXTER; Now turn for the moment to the

English version of these lectures. Professor; assume that

from Johannesburg ten or twenty of fifty or a hundred of

these lectures had been sent down to the Eastern Cape?—

Yes.

What would have prevented their distribution,

assuming they were accompanied by an instruction to dis-

tribute them?— To a number of different people?

Or to one person, say the secretary of the Cape

?— Tshunungwe?

Ur supposing he had sent it to the secretary of

what you call the Eastern Cape Region - Action Committee of

the A.N.C. in the Cape?— Yes.

Would that not nave been distributed?— It might

have been distributed, yes.

You don't know whether these lectures were dis-

tributed?— No, I don't know whether they were distributed.

You see, the evidence in this case has been that

these lectures, or at least one of them - in some cases

two - were found in the possession of your son, in the pos-

session of this man Mini, in the possession of the accused

Tshunungwe, in the possession of the accused Mkwai, in

possession of the accused Myakiso?— Yes.

That doesn't surprise you?— That doesn't sur-

prise me in the least0

Would it be fair to assume that a great many

people in addition in the African National Congress in

the Eastern Cape came into possession of these He ctures?—


No, I don't think it would be fair to assume that at all.

Have you any reason for suggesting the contrary

?— Well, from the names that you have read out, quite

possibly the National Action Council might have sent them

to those particular indivifiuals , as leaders of the Move-

ment in the Eastern Cape, but not necessarily to a wider

distribution than that.

You see, I ' l l refer you to a letter dated 18th

February, on the letterhead of the National Action Council

signed by somebody 'For National Action Council', and

this is sent to all Provinces and Regions. This document

again, the evidence is , was found in the possession of

Mini?—Yes.

It says, "Dear Friend, We are sending to you

under separate cover 50 copies of lectures which are meant

to be studied by groups of volunteers. The lectures, of

which these are the first, came into our hands, which were

prepared by a study circle. Having gone through them

thoroughly it was decided that the lectures will be very

useful to the volunteers.•> Therefore they have been cyclo-

styled. If you require more we suggest that you have these

cyclostyled for distribution?— Yes*

Then I invite your attention to another letter

from the same source dated 25th February, 1955? this time

addressed to the Secretary of the Eastern Cape Region

Action Committee; this document again was found in the

possession of Mini and it says: "Dear Friend, We thank

you for your very encouraging letter dated 17th February

1955 in which you gave us a brief summary of the progress

of your work in connection with-the campaign of the Congress

of the People in your area. Please continue with the good


work. We presume that you have by now received copies

of the first lecture which we posted to you. The lecture

must be studied by all volunteers and Congressmen; as

these are of great importance we suggest that all your

Executive members and volunteer-in-chiefs study the

lecture very carefully and then in turn lead discussions

with other volunteers in their respective areas, but this

must be done immediately as the rest of the lectures will

follow soon. Please submit a report on the success of

your National Day of Demands," And then, the same letter

. . . ? — The same letter?

An identical letter rather says that a number

of lectures have been sent - and this was found in the

possession of Tshunungwe, and then I 'd like to put a

further document to you also on this topic. This is

Exhibit TET.3?— Yes.

This is a letter which according to the evidence

was found in the possession of Thnur.^we5 dated 15th ApriU

1955» sent by the National Action Council in Johannesburg

to all Regional Committees, and it says % "Dear Priend,

as the first two lectures have already been distributed

to you for the purpose of studying and leading discussion

circles among active Congress members and volunteers,

we will be very pleased if you will submit a report on

the following1: ( l ) How were lectures received by volun-

teers; (2) How were these conducted, (3) Were more dis-

cussions planned for; are volunteers able to lead dis-

cussion circles." Then it says the information is of

the utmost importance for the preparation of study notes.

Now did you know that this correspondence was passing


between Johannesburg ancl the Eastern Cape?— Yes, I know

about that correspondence.

What did the accused Thunungwe tell you, Profes-

sor, about these lectures?— I think I said before that

Tshunungwe did inform me about having received these lec-

ture s.

Professor, did you know what these lectures were

for?— Well, these lectures were for study; yes, I did

hear that, that they were for study . .

Where did you hear that, Professor?— I think

from Tshunungwe.

Was that the first intimation you got?— That

was the first intimation I got.

And do you know whether in fact these lectures

were employed in the Eastern Cape?— No, I don't know

whether they were employed in fact - that I don't know.

I have never been at any meeting where they were used and

I haven't received any reports indicating that they were

used.

Did you make any enquiries at all , at any stage

into the use of these lectures? As to the contents of

these lectures? You were on the National Executive at

this time, were you not?— I was, yes, in my capacity as

President of the Cape.

And from whom did you hear first of these

lectures; was it from Tshunungwe?— Prom Tshunungwe, yes

He told you that certain lectures had arrived

from Johannesburg?— That's right.

Did he tell you what the lectures were called

?— I don't recall now whether he told me the headings

of the different lectures.


Did he give you any clue at all as to the con-

tents of the lectures?— No.

Didn't you ask him what the tenor of these lec-

tures was?— No, I didn't ask him.

Were you not interested, Professor?— No; I

wasn't curious to that extent; I mean, that would seem

to indicate that I was curious that there was perhaps some'

thing wrong on the go - - I was not suspicious of that at

all .

I'm suggesting a natural curiosity because at

this juncture the training of the volunteers surely was a

matter of paramount importance?— Paramount in what sense?

I mean, after all, the volunteers were going to do a per-

fectly straightforward above board job of . . . .

Educating the people?— Yes, about the Congress

of the People; there was nothing sinister about that;,

there was no reason for one to be suspicious that some

underhand work was going on, or something . . there was

nothing underhand.

But were you not interested to read along what

lines the volunteers were going to educate the people?— I

didn't expect the volunteers to educate the people along

different lines from the accepted lines of the A.N.C.

But in fact they did?— I don't know; I don't

know that they did educate the people in a different way

- on different lines to those of A.N.C. policy.

Professor, » . . ? — Is there any evidence to that

effect?

Professor, from your memory, is there anything

contained in these three lectures which is in any way in-

consistent with tte policy and the views of the African


National Congress?— Well, I 'd have to read the lectures

again a little more closely. . you ask me if they are

in any way inconsistent with the policy of the A . N . C . . . .

Well, consider the matter broadly, Professor;

you have heard these lectures, you have listened to them

?— I've listened to them, yes.

Now I don't wish to be unfair to you, you may

have a further opportunity of studying these lectures, but

broadly speaking, Professor, do these lectures seem to

you to propagate the views of the African National Congress

?— The view of the National African Congresswith regard

to "the promotion . . •

With regard to the World we live in and how

it is difided up?— Look, the African National Congress

hasn't got a view about the world we live in; we haven't

g>t a theory of the Universe.

Well, perhaps the African National Congress....

?—We 've got a view .of the counter ye live in,

The country you live in?— Yes, we have that

view and the changes that we would like to see in the

country.

Pausing there, Professor, the African National

Congress has a view of the type of State in which we live

- how that State was created, how that State maintains

its position, and how that State and the people who rule

in that State can lose their position. Nov;, forgetting

the theory of the Universe and limiting yourself to an

analysis of the scene, the political scene in South Africa

- does that second lecture, "The Country We Live In" put

foiward the views of the African National Congress in

analysing the political situation in this country, and


speculating as to how to get rid of the present rulers in

this country?— No, I would have to look at the lecture

again, but I don't think there is a view which is an A.N.C.

view, which is presented there; obviously these lectures

were drawn up by a group of people who were putting for-

ward their views as a basis for discussion.

Well, before we get to that, Professor, assuming

that the function of these lectures was as you stated, to

enable the volunteers to educate the people, one would

expect, would one not, that the material of the lectures

would reflect the views of the African National Con-

gress?— Not necessarily, no.

W e l l . . . . ? — Not necessarily. They express the

views of the writers; the views of the writers are not

necessarily the views of the African National Congress.

Professor Matthews, who was on the National

Action Council . . . ?— Different bodies were represented

on it; it wasn'tjust the A.N0C„

Well. . ?— Different bodies were represented

on it .

The African National Congress?— They were

represented, yes.

The South African Congress of Democrats?—

Yea

What else?— The Indian Congress I think was

represented on it .

Yes, what else?— The Coloured Organisation

was represented.

Yes?— I think the Trade Union Organisation.

Now is it fair to say, speaking generally,

that all these organisations had the same view as to the


type of State which they would like to see in this country

+o replace the present State, and all these organisations

d the same idea about the means to be employed in obtain

ing "that State?— I don't know whether it is fair to say

they all had the same ide'a as to the type of State. You

see, when you talk about the type of State . . .

Charter?— Yes, the type of State envisaged there is the

State in which people have got full citizenship rights.

I submit that all the organisations had that aim, yes.

would be established - - I'm putting to you that there

was unanimity as wel - - they all had the same idea about.. .

?— Of achieving the aims by non-violent means? Yes, they

all had that aim.

We'll discuss the content of the method; you

say they all had the same idea?— They did, yes.

I mean the type of State envisaged in the Freedom

Well, then, as to the means whereby that State

(COURT ADJOURNED).

18108.

COURT ReSUMUS ON THE 6TH OCTOBER, I960 .

Ax I JARANCE3 ^S BJFOR-i.

Accused. M. Moolla back in Court. Medical Certificate handed in.

ZaCHARIAH KiiOLIR^LANG MATTHEWS, under former oath;

CROSS-JXAMIN.,TICK BY MR. H0JXT3R CONTINUED s

Irofessor, yesterday at the adjournment we were

dealing with the three lectures. Before we continue

that discussion, as a formality perhaps I should just

hand you again the documents in the vernacular, one of

which was placed "before you yesterday. Having read the 5

first lecture now, I just want to ask you as a formality

whether you are able to say that the roneod document in

the vernacular is a translation? Yes, this is a

translation of the lecture The World Wo Live in.

The Exhibit numb ;r is V.M. 21. Professor, have 10

you had an opportunity of studying these throe lectures,

The World We Live In, The Country V/e Liv>_ In and Change

is Needed? I have had an opportunity of reading them,

yes.

I would like to out to you that what is con- 15

tained in these lectures is consistent with the view-

point of the African National Congress as known to you?

I dispute that. These lectures, as I read them -

I was reading them particularly from that point of view,

the point of view whether they represent A.N.C. policy, 20

and it seems to mo that reading them, they don't

represent A.N.C. Here and thervj there are of course

passages and phrases and sentences, which - with which

18109. (Z .K. MATTHEWS)

A.N.C. members would agree, but I think youwould recall

that the writers themselves do not claim that the

analysis they give is a jorrect one. They themselves

say if what we hav^ sairl in this document is correct,

then we would say the tasks presented to the Congress 5

movement is thus and so, and we are putting these forward

purely as suggestions to be discussed. They are not in

any sense claiming - there is nothing h^re in the documents

as I read them, claiming that they represent the Congress

point of view. 10

Before we come to a closer examination of the

lectures, professor, can you toll us briefly something

about the composition of the National Action Council at

the time that these lectures were issued. I think the

position is that there would be eight representatives 15

from each sponsoring organisation, with a further stipula-

tion in terms of the .dvaton agreement, that of the eight

representatives from each sponsoring organisation, a

minimum of five should come from the Transvaal? Yes.

I take it that the A.N.C. representatives on 20

the National Action Council would have scrutinised these

lectures before they were sent into the world?

Possibly they did, yes, but I think that one must remember

that the National Action Council was net in any sense a

policy making body. 2 5

I am not discussing that at the moment. At this

time, apart from the five representatives of the A.N.C.

who came from the Transvaal, th^re was a stipulation

that one of the other three representatives, one should

be the Pree State President, another should be President 30


Luthuli and the last one would "be the Cape I resident or

his deputy? I don't recall that specific stipulation,

but I suppose it is so.

It is reflected - you can take it from me that

that was the position. Now can you remember who in fact 5

shouldered this responsibility in the Cape? Was it you,

in your capacity as Cape I. resident or was ie somebody

else? I never served on the National action Council.

It would have been your deputy? Actually I

didn't have a deputy. 10

In terms of this agreement achieved at the

iVaton Conference as to the composition of the African

National Congress representation on the National Action

Council, are you able to say at all whether there was a

representative from the Cape? I don't recall a repre- 15

sentative from the Cape.

I take it that at this juncture Mr. Luthuli

would not have taken an active part in the National

Action Council. Do you know? I do not know, but I

imagine that most of the discussions took place in 20

Johannesburg and he was in Natal. I d n 't know how

frequently he was able to attend meetings of the National

Action Council.

Do you know how the Fr^e State -resident was at

this stage? I think it was Mafora. 25

Do you know whether he participated actively

in the activities of the National Action Council? I

don't know.

As a matter of practical politics, it would have

been run by the five A.N.C. members in the Transvaal, 30

18111. (Z .K. MATTH.3WS)

here in Johannesburg, not so? Subject of course always

to the overriding authority of the organisation to which

they belong.

So far as your knowledge is concerned, did it

strike any leader of the African National Congress 5

that - at any time, that the contents of these lectures

were not representative of African National Congress

policy? That they deviated or went further than African

National Congress policy? I don't know, I can't speak

for other leaders who may have read the lectures. 10

You can speak for yourself? I can speak for

myself.

You didn't read them and you took no steps?

I read thegi now, and I have indicated already that in my

opinion they don't claim to put forward African National 15

Congress point of view in any sense, and if I had read

them at the time, I would not have stopped them being

published, because I would have felt that this is a point

of view expressed by a group, and if this group presses

this point of view and wants to incorporate it in policy, 20

they would have to bring it before the National Conference.

Were you yourself a volunteer? No, I wasn't.

Did you have anything at all to do with the

training of volunteers? No, I didn't.

Freedom Volunteers I an referring to now? — No.25

Do you agree with the point of view expressed

in other documents of the african National Congress that

these lectures contain material which is suitable for

the political education of volunteers? Yes, they

contain material which can be a basis for discussion, 30

18112. U . K . MATTHEWS)

certainly.

.uR. JUSTICE B.J!KKaiiR :

What do you wish to convey by "for discussion"?

What I an trying to convey, My Lord, is this, that

the nere fact that a point of view is put forward before

people doesn't necessarily mean that that is forced down

their throats, that they must accept that.

That I understand, but these lectures are put

forward for discussion. What does that entail? They

were put forward for discussion in meetings. In fact that 10

is what the documents say.

Do you have actual knowledge how they were put

forward for discussion or what the discussion determined,

how the discussion was conducted? No, I wouldn't know

that. I would expect that the discussion would be conduc- 15

ted in the normal way in which a discussion is conducted

at meetings. Somebody speaks, people get up and ask

questions, what do ycM mean by this, I don't agree with

that.

I don't know whether you have noticed that at \ 20

the end of every lecture there is a series of questions?

Yes, I noticed that.

Now, if it is suggested that a discussion might

possibly be confined or turn round those questions ohly,

what would you say? No, I don't think that the discu^r25

sicn would be - I wouldn't expect that in a meeting a

discussion would be confined to those questions only.

I would expect that other questions would arise in the

course of these discussion which are not even included in

the material at all . 30

18113. (Z .K. MATTH3WS)

MR. JUSTICE RU3VDFF :

May I ask you this question, professor. Assume

that the lectures had been spread and assume that discus-

sions took place in many branches, they do propound a

certain point of view? They do, yes. 5

Now assume that as a result of the discussions,

at a Conference - this is theoretical - but assume at a

Conference a majority of delegates and members were in

favour of the point of view propounded in the lectures, . .?

Suppose they were. If you look at the lectures them- 10

selves you find that they make suggestions for a programme

at the end of the lectures. Supposing the majority of

people who had read them hid accepted this theory of the

world view presented here and this theory of the South

African history presented here, then as I see it, they 15

would then have come to the discussion of the programme,

and from the point of view of the African National

Congress as I know it , what the members are interested in

is the programme.

I am on the assumption that before aCongress 20

there came a motion *hat the line of approach - that a

certain line of approach be adopted consistent with what

is contained in the lectures, not in the same form but

the gist of it , because these are lectures as you say

for discussion. Ytfhat I really want to put to you is 25

that seeing - assume that the lectures had a certain

effect and the majority of the members of the Congress

came to the conclusion as a result of discussion that

that was a correct approach contained in the lectures

and that the A.I..C. should take a stand on that, I take 30

18114. (Z.K. 1/DiTTHiJWS)

it then possibly one could say that in terms of your

evidence, that night have been an expression of policy?

That might have been an expression of policy.

What is your personal view about that? What

would your own attitude be? Ivly own vi^w would be that 5

the suggested programme in the lectures themselves is not

very far from what the ^ .N . 3 . stands for, but the theory

of world history that is given and oven the South African

history interpretation, I would not necessarily have

agreed with that. I mean if I compare this theory of 10

world history herj with say for example with ? 's

Study of History or the History of South Africa given

here with do Kiewiet's imperial factor in South African

history, I would have more respect for the views of those

authors than for what is contained in here. 15

MR. JUSTICE B^KKJR s

Professor, please turn to Volume 4, page 665,

paragraph 5, How Is It Possible? Yes.

Now what I would like to put to you is how does

one deal with this type of statement I am about to put to 20

you. You see, it starts off, "How can such a great

sweeping change be brought about, only by organising

the strength of the common people. . . " and it goes on.

Then at lino 22, there is this statement, "This is the

task for which the Congress movement exists". Now how 25

does one deal with that, on the basis that these lectures

are put forward. . .? I ' d deal with that statement -

with the fact that what this writer is saying is tha t

this is what he would like the Congress movement to

regard as its task, the bringing about of these so-called 30

18115 (Z.K. MA.TTKBWS)

sweeping changes.

How does that - if you suggest that that too

may open up a point for discussion? It does open up

a point for discussion, yes.

Other people may say nc, that is not the task 5

of Congress? Other people nay say no, I don't agree

with that, not in that particular form. What do you

mean by sweeping, for example.

MR. HQjjXTZR s

Professor, I take it it is correct to say that 10

one function of the Freedom Volunteers would be to educate

the people about - as to how they should liberate them-

selves. Is that, broadly stated, a correct proposition?

Yes, in terms of the methods accepted by Congress,

it would be one of their functions. 15

And in terms of what is contained in these

lectures, however these lectures were to be used? They

were to teach them how to liberate themselves also with

the assistance of these lectures? But not exclusively

so , surely. 20

I am not suggesting exclusively so. These

lectures were to be one instrument,..? Thes^lectures

were to be part of the material which was to be used for

instruction.

I would just like to deal with certain passages 25

in these lectures, but what mystifies mo still is the

fact that you apparently took very little interest in a

matter of cardinal importance, that is to say the educa-

tion of the volunteers, which apparently was done syste-

matically with this view in mind? I don't regard this 30


education of the volunteers for the purpose of the

Congress of the People as you seem to regard it , a matter

of cardinal importance. It was not of cardinal importance.

I don't wish to waste time on this, "but I just

want to put to you as a general proposition that that was 5

the view which the African National Congress as a whole

took of the Education of volunteers? Look, I don't

think you can - when you use that word, of cardinal

importance, what it means to you is not what it necessarily

means to the A.N.C. You seem to think that the task of 10

the voluntd^rs was of such major importance in the

affairs of Congress that without it we would not be able

to function.

Wuuld not the volunteer corps be the top brigade

in the army of liberation? What do you mean by "top

brigade"? I think the leaders of the Congress were the

top brigade, not the volunteer corps, they were not the

top brigade.

I am putting to you what is the language of the

African National Congress. Do you recognise it as such?

If that language is used by individuals in the African

National Congress, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is

the language of the movement as a whole.

Very well, professor. If you would take up

the first lectures I don't want to waste time on this,

save to say that it makes th*j point that the world is

divided by oppression in different ways, but one of the

ways is oppression? I take it you agree with tlst

description? Professor, to save time, paragraphs 1 to

4, is there anything there which strikesyou as being at

variance with the viewpoint of the African National

1

18117. (Z.K. MATTHSWS)

Congress? I would say that the A.N.C. hasn't got a

particular viewpoint with regard to these paragraphs.

It has got no viewpoint about the world being divided

into the oppressed and non-oppressed, how these divisions

began, the slave system, the feudal system. The A.N.C. 5

hasn't got a view on those matters.

Paragraphs 5, 6 and 7, has the African National

Congress any policy on these matters? Not as far as I

know. It has got no view on capitalism, understanding

4^1 the world, I don't know what is meant by having a view 10

about understanding the world, and what is your labour

worth. Here the writer seems to give a labour theory of

value, but it doesn't necessarily represent African

National Congress point of view. I have never been at a

Conference where the labour theory of value is discussed. 15

If you would look at paragraph 10 please,

national oppression. It says, "While the workers of

Europe, of the industrial countries were themselves

exploited as we have described, the workers of these

colonies were exploited in a new way. They werooften 20

driven to work by force, herded from their farms by

* force," and it goes on tc lescribe their plight, and

then it says, "These were the colonial workers, s they

are called. ^Jlo^Jceen them in submission, the y^ we re

oppressed as a nation, denied all the rights and 25

privileges which workers have in the countries of Europe,

all the skilled and wellpaid jobs were closed to them,

all the political rights were denied them." Then it

goes on to say, "They were exploited in a now way, a

double exploitation. Exploited as workers and oppressed 30

18109. (Z.K. MATTHEWS)

and exploited as inferior people, subject races. This is

the exploitation we call imperialism, and those who suffer

from it we call the colonial people." Now Inwant to put

to you that that in terse form is a correct statement of

the point of view of the A.N.C. This concept of double 5

exploitation, here describes, sets forth explicitly and

correctly the view taken by the A .N.C .? It is not the

view of the ii.N.C. It is a factual statement of what

actually does obtain. It is not a question of the point

of view of the a .N.C . 10

Can we approach the matter in this way. Do you

say that the statements of fact herein contained is

accepted by the African National Congress as correct?

Yes, and not only by the African National Congress. Any

writer on colonial policy would accept that statement. 15

May we turn please to paragraph 11, The Struggle

for Liberation. This says, "Imperialism has divided up

the whole world, not only into parts which are owned by

one or other of the imperialist countries, not only into

empires, but into two sections. The colonial countries 20

of the world and the imperialist countries. With that

division has come new struggles, the struggles and wars

between the imperialist countries themselves for possession

of the colonies and the right to exploit them, and also

the gre t unending struggle of the peoples of the colonial 25

world against imperialism, of the right to govern them-

selves, live independent of foreign masters and to live

as equals of men of other nations"? Again a statement

of fact, not of policy.

And again one which the A.N.C. wuuld accept 30

18109. (Z.K. MATTHEWS)

as correct? Yes.

Then I read furthers "Twice in the last fifty-

years imperialism has caused world wars in which every

nation in the world has bo-on involved in the slaughter

and destruction. Each of these wars have been fought 5

because the imperialist powers have tried to redivide the

colonies between them. Between world wars, imperialism

wages ceaseless war to subjugate and conquer new colonial

lands. Today in Kenya and Malaya. Yesterday in Korea and

Indo-China, Palestine. Before that in China, in Spain, 10

in Abyssinia. Imperialism lives by armed force and terror

and lives always in war". Now this is again an historical

survey, and does the same answer apply? It is just a

statement of fact. It doesn't represent policy.

Very well, can we say again that this exposition 15

of fact is accepted by the African National Congress as

being Oorrect? I don't think that many people in the

A.N.C. would quarrel with that.

In fact, the concluding sentence is an oft

repeated theme at Conferences in the A.N.C. and in many, 20

many publications this idea that imperialism maintains

its hold and lives by armed force and terror? Yes.

And where necessary reports to war? Yes.

And that theme is a very persistent one in

official utterances of the A .N.C .? I don't know to 25

what extent you say a persistent one, but it is a view

that is upheld.

^md often repeated. Now paragraph 12, the

Socialist World. This says, "But the struggle of the

peoples for their freedom cannot be held back by force 30

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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