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ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Level 19, 55 Market Street, Sydney, NSW, 2000

On Monday, 17 August 2015 at 10.00am (Day 10)

CFMEU FUNDS - BTG D&A U-PLUS COVERFORCE

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Ms Sarah McNaughton SC and Mr Thomas Prince

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.17/08/2015 BTG D&A 654 Transcript produced by DTI UNCORRECTED PROOF

1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton. 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: Mr Ferguson was in the process of giving 5 evidence. 6 7 MR REITANO: Commissioner, could I announce a change of 8 appearance? I now appear for Mr Knott instead of Ms Doust. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Reitano. 11 12 Q. Mr Ferguson, I am sorry to have held you up this 13 morning. As I said on Friday, your former oath continues 14 to bind you, as I am sure you understand 15 A. I understand that, thank you. 16 17 <ANDREW JAMES FERGUSON: 18 19 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON CONTINUING: 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Ferguson, I was asking you about 22 a number of documents on Friday. Could I please ask you to 23 look again at MFI-15. 24 A. I have that document, I think. 25 26 Q. Yes, thank you. Just to set the scene again, this is 27 the one - it was a cheque requisition to which was attached 28 a memo written by you to Mr McClelland and in the course of 29 that memo, as I asked you last week, included in those 30 words, about halfway down the substance of it: 31 32 Anyway I double checked this recently with 33 SD [or Steve Dixon] who now has a different 34 story. He says really money was only for 35 Drug & Alcohol not OHS. 36 37 Do you see that? 38 A. I see that. 39 40 Q. That was your understanding in 2007, is that the 41 position? 42 A. That would have been the case. 43 44 Q. If that's the case, you returned it to the Building 45 Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee - yes? 46 A. I don't know about when you say "you returned it"; the 47 Union returned the money to the BTG, that's correct.

.17/08/2015 BTG D&A 655 A J FERGUSON (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI UNCORRECTED PROOF

1 2 Q. If your understanding was that it was for drug and 3 alcohol as at 2007, there the money should have stayed, 4 isn't that the fact? 5 A. That's not correct. 6 7 Q. And why is that? 8 A. Because - for a number of reasons. First of all, 9 Michael Knott had raised the issue of a donation to the 10 Union with me initially. I had subsequently spoken to 11 Mr Dixon who assured me that the money was a donation to 12 the Union and was for safety purposes and I'm aware that on 13 the invoices to Thiess there was transparency that it was 14 for safety purposes. I was convinced it was for safety 15 purposes. 16 17 Q. When you said you subsequently spoke to Steve Dixon 18 and it was for safety purposes, you mean prior to 2 October 19 2007 when you wrote the memo which is part of MFI-15, is 20 that what you are saying? 21 A. That's correct. 22 23 Q. And therefore, at 2 October 2007, the person who it 24 would appear was most closely associated with this money 25 told you it was for drug and alcohol, not OH&S - yes? 26 A. And the question? 27 28 Q. The person who was most closely associated with this 29 money had told you it was for drug and alcohol and not 30 occupational health and safety - yes? 31 A. That's correct. 32 33 Q. So, in that case, why did you simply not return the 34 $72,000 or so to the Drug and Alcohol Committee and leave 35 it there? 36 A. Because I was convinced that this new story was not 37 correct. I was convinced in my mind. I was certain the 38 money was a donation to the Union for safety and I didn't 39 believe what Mr Dixon had told me. 40 41 Q. There is nothing in this memo on 2 October 2007 which 42 indicates that you did not believe Mr Dixon's story; that's 43 correct, isn't it? 44 A. It's not in that particular memo, no. 45 46 Q. In fact, in my respectful submission to you, sir, that 47 is simply not the case and you are trying to make excuses


1 now for why the money went to the Drug and Alcohol 2 Committee and then came back two years later to the CFMEU? 3 A. That's definitely not correct. 4 5 Q. You said last Friday, transcript page 624: 6 7 The money was left ... 8 9 When you sent it back in 2007, the money was left in the 10 hands of the BTG D and A and you said "and safety 11 Committee". Do you recall saying that? 12 A. Could you repeat the question? 13 14 Q. Last Friday, you said - I'll just find precisely on 15 the page - right down the bottom of the page, line 46 -- 16 A. Is it possible to have a copy? 17 18 Q. Certainly. 19 A. Page? 20 21 Q. At page 624. 22 A. Will I read that? 23 24 Q. No, I am just drawing your attention to it. I asked 25 you at line 44: 26 27 Why does it eventually come back to the 28 CFMEU then? 29 30 Line 45: 31 32 My recollection is we were never contacted 33 by the police or the ABCC. The money was 34 left in the hands of the BTG Drug and 35 Alcohol ... 36 37 And you add "and Safety Committee". Do you see that? 38 A. Page 624. 39 40 Q. Yes, right at the bottom of the page. 41 A. And the specific wording is: 42 43 The money was left in the hands of the BTG 44 Drug and Alcohol ... 45 46 Q. That is your answer - yes? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. It wasn't really in the hands of that committee 3 because you became a signatory, together with Mr Papa, on 4 that account as soon as that money went in, didn't you? 5 6 MR CONDON: Commissioner, there are two questions, 7 I think, in that proposition. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: I am just looking for the reference. 10 Perhaps if the question could be repeated. 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: I will divide it up to make it simpler. 13 14 Q. The point is that as soon as the money was sent back 15 to the BTG Drug and Alcohol Committee, you became 16 a signatory on that account - yes? 17 A. I think that's the case. 18 19 Q. You were, effectively, with Mr Papa, in charge of the 20 signing in relation to that account of that Committee; 21 that's right? 22 A. I don't know who all the signatories were to that 23 account. 24 25 Q. And the money was corralled or quarantined into a cash 26 deposit account; you've seen that? 27 A. That appears to be the case. 28 29 Q. So it wasn't really in the hands of the BTG Drug and 30 Alcohol and Safety Committee, as you call it, was it, it 31 was corralled pursuant to a particular cash deposit 32 account? 33 34 MR CONDON: Commissioner, I object to the question. The 35 account was in the name of that Committee. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: What is the objection, though? 38 39 MR CONDON: The question, with respect to my learned 40 friend, is unfair. It wasn't really in the hands of a BTG 41 Drug and Alcohol Safety Committee, it was corralled into 42 a particular account. It was an account in the name of 43 that Committee. 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: I think the distinction is a formal 46 rather than a substantive one, though, isn't it? 47


1 MR CONDON: My learned friend is, I think, trying to put 2 to the witness that his control of the account, if that be 3 the case, meant it wasn't, in effect, in the hands of 4 a Committee. That should be put fairly to the witness. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, I am not convinced of 7 the merit of the objection, but if you comply with 8 Mr Condon's submission, it does remove any difficulty. 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: I will clarify it. 11 12 Q. Sir, you weren't on the BTG Drug and Alcohol Committee, 13 were you? 14 A. I wasn't a member of the Building Trades Group of 15 Unions Drug and Alcohol Safety Committee, no. 16 17 Q. Or, as we seem to have it on letterhead, the BTG Drug 18 and Alcohol Committee? 19 A. And we have already dealt with the issue of the 20 letterhead not being changed. 21 22 Q. But you weren't on that committee, whatever it be 23 called, were you? 24 A. I repeat the answer. The answer is no. 25 26 Q. Yet, you were a signatory to that account? 27 A. I was a signatory to a Building Trades Group account. 28 I'm not too sure which one we are referring to. 29 30 Q. We have shown you, you will recall last week, you were 31 a signatory to the drug and alcohol safety and program 32 account ending in the numerals 676 - yes? 33 A. I don't remember any account numbers, but I remember 34 being a signatory to a Building Trades Group account. It 35 may well have been the Drug and Alcohol Safety Committee, 36 I'm not sure. 37 38 Q. If I need to go again to those documents, do you 39 recall being shown documents which said that that account, 40 the Drug and Alcohol Safety Program Account, was an account 41 of the Drug and Alcohol Safety Committee? 42 A. I think that's the case. 43 44 Q. And you weren't on that Committee, yet, you were 45 a signatory to that account - yes? 46 A. I think that's the case. 47


1 Q. Well, why were you a signatory to that account? 2 A. I don't know the answer to that question. 3 4 Q. Were you a signatory to the account because you wanted 5 to help keep control of that money which was sent to the 6 Committee and placed in that cash deposit account? 7 A. Definitely not. 8 9 Q. Even though the timing is suggestive of what I have 10 just suggested to you, in that you became a signatory to 11 that account the day after that amount of money of $72,000 12 or so was sent to that Committee? 13 A. I don't accept that. 14 15 Q. Well, the timing is compelling, is it not, in terms of 16 what it suggests? You don't agree with that? 17 A. I don't accept your argument, no. 18 19 Q. Also, on this page, we are looking at MFI-15, can I 20 take you to the sixth line down - perhaps we'll just put it 21 in context. You say: 22 23 I finally caught up with a backlog of work 24 today. As you are aware the ABCC have been 25 pestering T Sharp re a payment made to the 26 BTG D and Alcohol last year. 27 28 Just pausing there, you don't call it anything different 29 there. You don't add the word "safety" there in your memo, 30 but you are very concerned to add "safety" in every answer 31 you've given last week and today? 32 A. I feel you are seeking to delete the word, that is why 33 I make the point, and often that was the familiar name of 34 the Committee that most people understood and they wouldn't 35 have always written the words "Building Trades Group Drug 36 and Alcohol and Safety Committee. I didn't use the word 37 "Committee either. 38 39 Q. And then you say: 40 41 I got off M Knott last week a copy of the 42 invoice sent for $100,000, though invoice 43 says for BTG Drug and Alcohol etc and 44 safety consultancy. I got Tony Papa to get 45 invoice sent last year ... 46 47 Does that indicate, sir, that you were involved in having


1 Mr Papa send out the invoice or causing Mr Papa to cause 2 the invoice to be sent out for $100,000; would you agree 3 with that? 4 A. I've got no reason to doubt this record. I can't 5 recall that. I record making a point at the time to ensure 6 that it was clear on the invoicing to Thiess that the work 7 was for drug and alcohol and safety work and that's the 8 best of my recollection. 9 10 Q. It also says, just continuing on just to keep it in 11 context: 12 13 ... when S Dixon told me that Thiess 14 Hochtief had agreed. I was a bit 15 perplexed at the time but SD assured 16 me ... 17 18 Et cetera, et cetera. "You know what SD was like." What 19 do you mean by that? 20 A. Which sentence are you referring to? 21 22 Q. "You know what SD was like." 23 A. I think - my recollection is being poor on paperwork, 24 a brilliant Union official, trustworthy, but poor on 25 paperwork. 26 27 Q. And then as I indicated before: 28 29 Anyway I double checked this recently with 30 SD who now has a different story. He says 31 really money was only for drug and alcohol 32 not OHS. 33 34 So you don't doubt that Mr Dixon was telling you what his 35 understanding was, is that correct? Is that what you are 36 saying in that memo? 37 A. I don't think I'm saying that. 38 39 Q. What do you say that you are saying? 40 A. That he's changed his story and now there's a story 41 that it's only for drug and alcohol. 42 43 Q. But you said last week that you regarded him as 44 trustworthy? 45 A. That's correct. 46 47 Q. And that when he said then that he'd changed his


1 story, it really was only for Drug and Alcohol, not OH&S, 2 he was being trustworthy? 3 A. When he said that, I was absolutely convinced what he 4 was saying was not correct. I knew it was a donation and 5 I knew it was for safety. 6 7 Q. There is nothing to indicate that in this document at 8 all, is there? 9 A. I disagree. 10 11 Q. You tell me which bit of this document indicates that 12 you did not believe Mr Dixon? 13 A. Maybe I didn't understand your question then. It 14 seems a different question now. 15 16 Q. I said: 17 18 There is nothing to indicate that in this 19 document at all, is there? 20 21 A. That it's for safety purposes? 22 23 Q. Well, I will just put what I said. 24 A. Okay. 25 26 Q. I was asking you about him saying he'd changed his 27 mind and I said: 28 29 He was being trustworthy when he told you 30 that it was only for Drug, not OH&S ? 31 32 And you said: 33 34 When he said that, I was absolutely 35 convinced what he was saying was not 36 correct. I knew it was a donation and 37 I knew it was for safety. 38 39 And then I said: 40 41 There is nothing to indicate that in this 42 document at all, is there? 43 44 And you said: 45 46 I disagree. 47


1 And I am saying what is there in this document to indicate 2 that he was not correct and that you were correct? 3 A. The reference to safety consultancy. The reference to 4 the payment to the BTG for drug and alcohol and for safety. 5 The sentence that says: 6 7 As BTG did not have a safety officer ... 8 9 Which is correct: 10 11 ... allocated to CFMEU we did - we think it 12 is 99 per cent of the industry OH&S work. 13 14 There are very clear references there to the issue of 15 safety which was paramount in my mind at the time. 16 17 Q. And I put it to you again, sir, if that's the case, 18 why on earth did you need to return it to the BTG Drug and 19 Alcohol, and if you'd like to call it, and Safety 20 Committee? 21 A. Because two weeks earlier we had received a message, 22 if I can call it that, which is the reference to the ABC 23 making an inquiry. It was two weeks earlier. I had spoken 24 to Peter McClelland in relation to the issue. My 25 recollection now is that I agreed I'd ring and speak to 26 Steve Dixon, but we had agreed that in view of the inquiry, 27 that we would not have the money fully expended and that we 28 would return the money to the BTG and that we would await 29 the outcome of any investigation and we regarded that as an 30 act of due diligence. I subsequently spoke to Steve who 31 had this new story and we proceeded accordingly. 32 33 Q. Can I ask you, sir, please, to look at MFI-17 which 34 I showed you last week. 35 A. I think I've got that document. 36 37 Q. You have added that handwritten part. You have 38 corrected the Michael Deegan; it should have been 39 Michael Deegan, not John Lee? 40 A. I have corrected that here, not on the document, yes. 41 42 Q. There is no mention in 2011 of any of the issue that 43 you have indicated in 2007 about Steve Dixon's new story; 44 that's correct, isn't it? 45 A. I didn't believe Steve Dixon. 46 47 Q. There's nothing to indicate --


1 A. Sorry, the answer is yes, there's no reference. 2 3 Q. And you have also said quite clearly here that it is 4 a donation to the BTG; do you see that? 5 A. I'll have to read it first. They resolved to donate 6 $100,000 to the BTG for OH&S, meaning safety, and drug and 7 alcohol work in the industry, that's correct. 8 9 Q. Not to the Union? 10 A. Not to the Union. That was the discretion of the BTG. 11 12 Q. But it was not, you say, clearly here in 2011 that the 13 donation was to the BTG, not to the CFMEU? 14 A. I'm not sure of your question, sorry? 15 16 Q. You say here clearly that the donation was to the BTG, 17 not to the CFMEU, don't you? 18 A. They resolved to donate $100,000 to BTG for OH&S and 19 D&A, clearly to the BTG. 20 21 Q. That was clearly your understanding in 2011? 22 A. That there was a donation to the Union for drug and 23 alcohol and safety purposes, that's correct. 24 25 Q. But it says here "to the BTG", you have just given 26 a different account? 27 A. I haven't given a different account. 28 29 Q. You have said to the Union and another time you said 30 to the BTG? 31 A. Because earlier I was questioned about the 32 relationship and the work of the BTG in relation to safety 33 and I have explained they didn't have the infrastructure or 34 employ officials that had right of entry and that work was 35 done by the CFMEU. I'm not explaining that in that memo; 36 I am summarising what occurred. 37 38 Q. Can I ask you to see some documents, please? 39 A. I hope I've got the right documents. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: Just in view of what Mr Ferguson just 42 said, which seems to reflect a mental state with which I am 43 in sympathy, is Mr Ferguson supposed to have four separate 44 groups of documents clipped together, each with 45 a paperclip, and the first two are headed "Draft", the 46 third is headed "Brian" and so is the fourth? 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Do you have those, Mr Ferguson? 4 A. I am sorry, I thought you were talking to 5 Ms McNaughton. 6 7 Q. Do you have those? 8 A. I have four documents here. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, they look similar. Very well. 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 13 14 Q. Sir, just looking at the top document at the moment, 15 have you seen that document before? 16 A. I'm not too sure what the top document is. 17 18 Q. The one that has been given to you, you have been 19 given four, the one on the top. 20 A. I moved them around when I was being asked a question. 21 I want to make sure I am talking about the correct 22 document. The top one I've got in my pile has got 23 Tony Papa was the Secretary of the BTG and that is not on 24 any of the other documents, 25 26 Q. Yes, that one, correct. 27 A. Okay. 28 29 Q. Have you seen that document before? 30 A. I remember doing a report at the time. I don't 31 remember the handwriting part of it. 32 33 Q. Is that your writing in the handwriting? 34 A. On the first document we're referring to? 35 36 Q. Yes. 37 A. On the first page, I think that's correct. 38 39 Q. And on the second page where there is handwriting, is 40 that yours? 41 A. That's correct. 42 43 Q. And the third page, is that your handwriting? 44 A. That's correct. 45 46 Q. And the fourth page, I don't think there is any 47 handwriting?


1 A. No, there's not. 2 3 Q. Can you turn that over to the next document. 4 A. The next one I have here is a clean option -- 5 6 Q. Yes. If you have the first document, you might like 7 to label the first one that we just looked at, number 1? 8 A. I've done that. Will I mark it? 9 10 Q. Yes, if you would be kind enough to mark that. 11 A. Could I have a pen, please. Done that. 12 13 Q. Can you see - take your time - that the second 14 document appears to have incorporated the handwriting, what 15 would appear to be additions or corrections that appear on 16 the first document? 17 A. I'm just doing what you've asked me to do. That 18 doesn't appear to be the case. 19 20 Q. Can we just see, for example - I am not saying that 21 the second document is only the incorporations of the 22 handwriting, but, as a preliminary question, do you see, 23 for example, on the second line, it says "contribution for 24 Thiess" in the first document and the second document says 25 "contribution from Thiess", and that appears to have been 26 the subject of a handwritten correction that has been 27 incorporated - yes? 28 A. That particular one has been included, it might 29 appear, yes. 30 31 Q. On the same line, BTG initials have been changed to 32 Building Trades Group of Unions (BTG), which also appears 33 to reflect the handwritten amendment on the first document? 34 A. That's correct. 35 36 Q. It at least appears in some respects to incorporate 37 the handwritten amendments - yes? 38 A. I'm not in a position to confirm that. The majority 39 of the wording hasn't been in fact accommodated. 40 41 Q. What do you mean by that? 42 A. Well, you've got it in front of you. It says: 43 44 Tony Papa was the Secretary of the BTG and 45 Michael Knott was responsible for the 46 finances of the Union. 47


1 That doesn't appear to be accommodated and that is the most 2 substantial point. 3 4 Q. Yes. In relation to the second document, have you 5 seen that typewritten document before? 6 A. I've seen a handwritten document. I don't know if 7 this is the document I'm referring to in my mind. 8 9 Q. Is it the case that there was more than one draft of 10 the document we've seen as number 1 document and number 2 11 document and if you would like to see the others now, the 12 third document and the fourth document, do they appear to 13 be drafts and we don't say we have all of the drafts, but 14 drafts of what would appear to be the same general 15 document? 16 A. I'm going to mark the next document with no 17 handwriting on the front page as 3. 18 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. The next one fourth. 21 22 Q. Yes, and the fourth one has handwriting on it? 23 A. And I am not suggesting that is in any chronological 24 order, I have no idea. I am aware I drafted a report and 25 I don't know which of these documents are in what sequence 26 and whether all the handwritten notes have been 27 accommodated or not. 28 29 Q. Can you recall how many drafts, because, if I can 30 suggest to you, it does appear that we are missing some 31 intervening documents, as you have indeed pointed out, 32 there appears to be some intervening documents, 33 for example, between 1 and 2 which we don't have access to. 34 Can you remember how many drafts you did? 35 A. I'm not suggesting there is any intervening documents. 36 I remember doing a draft. I remember doing the report and 37 I've got a recollection of making some changes. Beyond 38 that, I don't have recollection. 39 40 Q. Is it you that made the changes, do you recall, or was 41 this a jointly prepared document, or can't you recall? 42 A. In terms of the handwritten notes, I'll take 43 responsibility for that. I can't take responsibility for 44 anyone else's changes to my document. 45 46 Q. But was it your document? 47 A. That's correct.


1 2 Q. Was anyone else involved in the production of it? 3 A. No, not to my recollection. 4 5 Q. Can we take it then that each of the various versions 6 of what appears to be the same document, in general terms, 7 is your work? 8 A. I'm not certain but I assume overwhelmingly. 9 10 Q. Can I ask you, for example, to examine the first two 11 documents you have labelled 1 and 2. Do you see the third 12 paragraph on page 1? 13 A. Of which document? 14 15 Q. The first document. 16 A. The third paragraph, yes. 17 18 Q. And also the third paragraph of the second document. 19 A. The third paragraph of the second document. 20 21 Q. I think we are comparing apples with apples at this 22 point. At some point -- 23 A. I want to be clear. We are talking about document 1 24 and document 2, and we're referring to the third paragraph? 25 26 Q. Correct. 27 A. Okay. 28 29 Q. The first document says: 30 31 At some point Steve ... 32 33 The second document adds the word "Dixon" -- 34 A. Yes, I need to track. I've got that, yes. 35 36 Q. It continues: 37 38 ... advised Peter McClelland and myself 39 that Thiess had made a substantial 40 contribution ... 41 42 The first document says "to the BTG", the second document 43 says: 44 45 To assist the CFMEU to provide safety 46 services to the Lane Cove Tunnel 47 Project ...


1 2 And it goes on. Now, can you recall why the change was 3 made from the BTG to the CFMEU? 4 A. I don't recall why that change was made, but I assume, 5 if that's helpful, that - I'm very clear that I was advised 6 from Michael, there was a discussion about a donation to 7 the Union, and I was clearly advised that from Steve Dixon, 8 there was a donation to the Union for safety. So I am 9 assuming that is why it was fine-tuned, if I can use that 10 expression. 11 12 Q. If we can go through to the third document and fourth 13 document for the equivalent third paragraph on the first 14 page, the words "to assist the CFMEU" is retained? 15 A. That's correct. 16 17 Q. Can I ask you to return to the first document. 18 A. I've got that. 19 20 Q. If you could go over to the bottom of the second 21 page over to the top of the third page. 22 A. The bottom of the second page to the third page. Okay 23 then. 24 25 Q. There are some words crossed out; do you see that? 26 A. We are talking about the second page or the third 27 page? 28 29 Q. The bottom of the second page over to the top of the 30 third page. 31 A. That appears - yes, that's correct. 32 33 Q. So what has been crossed out are the words "I'm not 34 sure why there was" - I think it is "three year 35 delay" - I can't read that: 36 37 ... but I suspect that this was due to 38 Peter McClelland or Michael Knott 39 forgetting about the issue. I notice 40 Michael does not provide a copy of this 41 request and I suspect it is because he or 42 Peter McClelland signed the requisition, 43 and this does not satisfy his agenda of 44 slandering me. I have asked Patricia to 45 give me a copy of this requisition. 46 47 And that has been crossed out, do you see that?


1 A. Amongst other words as well. 2 3 Q. Yes. Could you please turn to the second document, 4 third page -- 5 A. I've got that. 6 7 Q. -- second-last paragraph. 8 A. Third page, second-last paragraph? 9 10 Q. There is a bit of a gap towards the bottom of the 11 page, that last sentence: 12 13 This requisition to transfer the money to 14 the CFMEU ... 15 16 And we are talking the transfer back, the second one, it 17 would appear from the dates in 2009: 18 19 ... was in fact authorised by Peter 20 McClelland, not myself. 21 22 Do you see that? 23 A. That's correct. 24 25 Q. If I can ask you now to turn to the third document, 26 the third page, the top paragraph, last sentence: 27 28 This requisition to transfer ... 29 30 A. Sorry, third page. 31 32 Q. First paragraph. 33 A. First paragraph, I've got that. 34 35 Q. The last sentence. 36 A. Last sentence. 37 38 Q. 39 This requisition to transfer the money to 40 the CFMEU was in fact authorised by Peter 41 McClelland, not myself. 42 43 Do you see that? 44 A. That's correct. 45 46 Q. And then if I could ask you to look at the fourth 47 document.


1 A. The fourth document, yes. 2 3 Q. The third page. 4 A. The third page. 5 6 Q. The first paragraph, last sentence. 7 A. The third page - sorry, I apologise for this. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: It is not your fault, Mr Ferguson. 10 Just take it at your own speed. 11 12 THE WITNESS: I am on the third page of the fourth 13 document. 14 15 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. The first paragraph. 16 A. "Michael Knott." 17 18 Q. No, the last sentence of the first paragraph, "This 19 requisition to transfer the money" is crossed out; do you 20 see that? 21 A. That's correct. 22 23 Q. Did you find out that that was not correct, that the 24 authorisation was by Peter McClelland, not yourself? 25 A. I don't know the answer, and I'm not sure this is in 26 chronological order anyway. 27 28 Q. Well, you saw from the documents that you and Mr Papa 29 authorised that transfer in 2009, we showed you on Friday? 30 A. The transfer? Back to the CFMEU, is it? 31 32 Q. Yes. 33 A. There are so many transfers we are talking about here, 34 so -- 35 36 Q. Go, if you would be kind enough, to MFI-16 which is 37 the diagram. 38 A. Sorry, we are still trying to get the document. 39 Thank you. I've got the document you are referring to, 40 I think. 41 42 Q. Do you recall from last week that the money went down 43 to the CFMEU in 2006 -- 44 A. I just want to look at that. So from Thiess it went 45 to the Building Trades Group? 46 47 Q. Yes.


1 A. You said to the CFMEU, I thought. 2 3 Q. No, I am asking you to look at - the various 4 transactions are numbered. 5 A. Okay. Which number are you referring to? 6 7 Q. Well, I was actually asking you, before I showed you 8 the diagram, about number 7, but I was just trying to put 9 it in context for you. 10 A. Number 7. So CFMEU from BTG coming down - 2009 to 11 CFMEU. 12 13 Q. Yes. Do you recall that you co-signed that cheque? 14 A. To the best of my recollection. 15 16 Q. Did you find that out before finalising or in the 17 course of preparing this report here? 18 A. I didn't understand the question. 19 20 Q. Did you find out that you were in fact partly 21 responsible for the transfer of money back to the CFMEU in 22 2009 in the course of preparing this report that we have 23 four drafts in relation to? 24 A. I don't know the answer. I don't think so. 25 26 Q. So you can't assist us as to why the sentence was 27 crossed out? 28 A. I don't know when it was crossed out, if it was 29 crossed out initially or at the end because we have agreed 30 there is no certainly about the chronological order here, 31 and I can't assist. 32 33 Q. I don't know that that's agreed, sir, but that is what 34 you say. 35 A. Sorry? 36 37 Q. You said it is agreed there is no certainty about the 38 chronological order -- 39 A. The chronological order. 40 41 Q. -- and I don't know if that is the fact but your 42 counsel can have time to look at those documents. But you 43 can't recall having the sentence in and taking the sentence 44 out about Mr McClelland? 45 A. No. I was very confused about actually when the whole 46 thing happened and I think from my evidence, I actually 47 thought it was after I returned from long service leave in


1 2010, so I don't have this recollection. 2 3 Q. Can you recall where you first got your impressions, 4 such that you included it in the document, that Peter 5 McClelland was responsible for that transfer in 2009? 6 A. I don't have a recollection. 7 8 Q. Can I suggest these matters to you, sir. I suggest 9 that you were aware at all relevant times that no part of 10 the $100,000 proposed to be paid by Thiess was a donation 11 to the CFMEU for safety purposes? 12 13 MR CONDON: I object to the question. "Proposed to the 14 paid" directs this witness's attention to a position before 15 the payment. 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Just say that again, the expression 18 "proposed to be paid" directs -- 19 20 MR CONDON: It is intended to direct the witness's 21 attention to the time before the payment was made. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 24 25 MR CONDON: That should be made clear to the witness. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: If you think it is not clear enough, no 28 doubt Ms McNaughton will. 29 30 MR CONDON: Because something may turn upon what this 31 witness knew before the payment was made. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: Again, I personally do not have trouble 34 with the question, but it may resolve difficulties if it is 35 made a little clearer for consideration of the witness. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: I will make it quite clear. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 40 41 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. I suggest, sir, that at all relevant 42 times both prior to payment and after it, you were aware 43 that no part of the $100,000 from Thiess was a donation to 44 the CFMEU for safety purposes? 45 A. Could you break up the question for me, please? 46 47 Q. I suggest to you that both - well, I suggest to you


1 that at all times, if that is easier, you were aware that 2 no part of the $100,000 from Thiess was a donation to the 3 CFMEU for safety purposes? 4 A. That's definitely not the case. I was certain there 5 was a donation to the Union, and I was certain there was 6 a donation for the purposes of safety. 7 8 Q. I further suggest that you were aware that at all 9 relevant times, that none of the $100,000 from Thiess was 10 a payment for services to be provided by the CFMEU? 11 A. That's 100 per cent not correct. 12 13 Q. I also suggest that you were aware that none of the 14 $100,000 proposed or paid by Thiess was a payment to the 15 Drug and Alcohol Committee for services to be provided? 16 A. Could you just repeat that, please? 17 18 Q. I also suggest that you were aware that none of the 19 $100,000 from Thiess was a payment or was intended to be 20 a payment to the Drug and Alcohol Committee for services to 21 be provided? 22 A. That's 100 per cent not correct. 23 24 Q. I suggest you were a party to an arrangement for 25 a false invoice for the $100,000 to be issued by the BTG 26 Drug and Alcohol Committee to Thiess, for the purpose of 27 disguising the fact that the ultimate intended recipient of 28 the funds were the CFMEU? 29 A. The suggestion is absurd. 30 31 Q. I further suggest that you agreed with Mr Sharp to 32 allow the Drug and Alcohol Committee to have 20 per cent of 33 the proposed $100,000 payment in return for the BTG Drug 34 and Alcohol account, allowing its accounts to be used to 35 disguise the purpose of the payment? 36 A. That's not correct. 37 38 Q. I suggest that you knew that shortly after the payment 39 of the $100,000 by Thiess, $100,000, less GST, was 40 transferred from the BTG Drug and Alcohol Committee account 41 to the BTG account on Mr Papa's authorisation? 42 A. I'm not sure about that. 43 44 Q. I further suggest that you and Mr Papa arranged for 45 the transfer of 80 per cent of the payment being $72,727.27 46 to be received into the general revenue of the CFMEU? 47 A. Could you repeat that, please?


1 2 Q. I suggest that you and Mr Papa arranged for the 3 transfer of 80 per cent of the payment - just to be clear, 4 that is 80 per cent of the $90,909.09, that being, if you 5 look at the diagram, the $100,000 less GST, and that itself 6 being $72,727.27, you arranged that with Mr Papa to be 7 received into the general revenue of the CFMEU? 8 A. I object to the word "you arranged", but I think 9 effectively I signed a cheque to that effect. 10 11 Q. I further suggest that upon learning of the ABCC 12 investigation in 2007, you arranged for the transfer of the 13 $72,727.29 to go back to the Drug and Alcohol Program? 14 A. As I said I object to this word "you arranged", but 15 I think effectively there was a transfer of money back to 16 the BTG. I'm not certain into what account of the BTG. 17 18 Q. I suggest that your true purpose at that time was to 19 take steps which would appear to involve the CFMEU 20 returning the funds, in order to avoid any suggestion of 21 impropriety, but, at the same time, retaining control over 22 the funds so that they could be returned to the Union in 23 due course? 24 A. That's not correct. 25 26 Q. I further suggest that once you ascertained there was 27 going to be no further investigation, you and Mr Papa 28 authorised the return of the $72,000 or so to be returned 29 to the CFMEU? 30 A. My apologies, could you repeat that? 31 32 Q. I further suggest that once you ascertained there was 33 going to be no further investigation, you and Mr Papa 34 authorised the return -- 35 A. If I can tell you the answer: that's not correct. 36 37 Q. I further suggest that you knew that the payment of 38 $100,000 made by Thiess had no legitimate purpose? 39 A. Definitely not the case. 40 41 Q. And that you knew that the $100,000 payment by Thiess 42 was intended to ensure industrial peace between Thiess and 43 the Union in relation to the Epping to Chatswood project 44 which had had a poor safety record? 45 A. Part of your question has got some merit about the 46 safety problems on the job, so is it possible to break up 47 the question?


1 2 Q. I suggest that the purpose of the payment to your 3 understanding, that is the $100,000 by Thiess to the Union, 4 was in order to ensure industrial peace on the project? 5 A. Definitely not the case. 6 7 Q. Can I move on now to a different topic. 8 9 MS McNAUGHTON: Commissioner, before I do that, those four 10 draft documents, if they could be received into evidence. 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. They will be known as Drug and 13 Alcohol Case Study MFI-18 14 15 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-18 - FOUR DOCUMENTS WITH 16 THE WORD "DRAFT" ON TWO DOCUMENTS 17 18 MS McNAUGHTON: If the witness could please be handed some 19 folders which are not yet marked although I think they have 20 been the subject of some questions to date. 21 22 Perhaps if they could be marked now, Commissioner, 23 once we provide that. The folder I am talking about has on 24 its cover "CTDTUR Additional Documents" and "CTDTUR" is 25 Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights. 26 27 THE WITNESS: I've got that folder. The document I've got 28 is CTDTUR Additional Documents? 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Yes. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: I am just lagging behind. That is 33 CTDTUR Additional Documents. Just to check, tab 1 is some 34 business name searches into the Committee to Defend Trade 35 Union Rights Pty Ltd? 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: Correct. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: That will be Drug and Alcohol Case 40 Study -- 41 42 MS McNAUGHTON: Perhaps, Commissioner, could it be CTDTUR 43 MFI-2? We have MFI-1 as the three volumes. 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: I amend what I just said and withdraw 46 it. This bundle will be known as CTDTUR MFI-2. 47


1 CTDTUR MFI-2 - FOLDER MARKED "CTDTUR ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS" 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, could you kindly turn to page 1 4 behind tab 1. 5 A. I've got that. 6 7 Q. Do you see there an ASIC & Business Name Search for 8 the entity "Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights 9 Pty Ltd"? 10 A. That's correct. 11 12 Q. What is your status with this organisation at the 13 moment, to your understanding? 14 A. I'm a director. 15 16 Q. You're currently a director? 17 A. I think that's correct, yes. 18 19 Q. It certainly shows if you go, please, over the page -- 20 A. Which page? 21 22 Q. Page 2. The current directors are apparently listed 23 and your name is not amongst them, but it does show you on 24 page 3 as a ceased or former director. Is that out of 25 date? 26 A. I'm not too sure. 27 28 Q. Do you understand that you have been reappointed as 29 a director sometime after 21 September 2011; on page 3 that 30 shows your cease date on that date? 31 A. As I indicated, I understand I am a director 32 currently. I assume that would logically mean if I'm 33 correct, that there needs to be an update, but -- 34 35 Q. Can I just show you perhaps the first volume of MFI-1 36 in CTDTUR. 37 A. Thank you. CTDTUR, volume 1 of 3? 38 39 Q. Yes, please, and if you kindly turn to page 292. 40 A. I have page 292. 41 42 Q. Do you see there on the letterhead of the Committee to 43 Defend Trade Union Rights: 44 45 I wish to advise that I am convening 46 a Meeting of the Board of Directors to be 47 held on Wednesday, 30 May 2012.


1 2 Signed by Mr Sharkey; do you see that? 3 A. That's correct. 4 5 Q. Do you see over the page, on page 293, what appears to 6 be the minutes of a meeting held on 30 May 2012, and you 7 are said to be present at that meeting, and then do you see 8 further -- 9 A. I want to satisfy myself if I could, please. I've 10 read that. 11 12 Q. And then further below: 13 14 Board representation: 15 16 Board noted and received the resignation of 17 Malcolm Tulloch. It is also noted that 18 Fr Roy O'Neill had also resigned from the 19 trust. 20 21 Resolution: 22 23 That Brian Parker replace Malcolm Tulloch 24 and that Andrew Ferguson replace Roy 25 O'Neill on the board. 26 27 Do you see that? 28 A. That's correct. 29 30 Q. Does that accord with your recollection? 31 A. I recollect I am a member of the - I'm a director. 32 I don't have a recollection of replacing someone. I was 33 there for a number of years. 34 35 Q. Do you see, though, that the ASIC record appears to 36 have not been updated? 37 A. I'm not aware of that issue. 38 39 Q. Well, you were just shown it. Would you agree that it 40 appears to be not updated? 41 A. That's possibly the case or -- 42 43 Q. Can I ask you to put those documents to one side. 44 Could you tell the Commission your understanding of why the 45 Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights was established? 46 A. It's not a two word answer, but I assume I'll have 47 that opportunity.


1 2 It followed an initiative from Stan Sharkey who 3 approached the Union. Stan was a former National Secretary 4 of the BWIU and the CFMEU, and was also a leader of the 5 ACTU. To my recollection, he started a dialogue with the 6 Union about the issue of defending the assets of not just 7 the CFMEU but for the whole of the labour movement, and 8 this was in a period, to the best of my recollection, when 9 there was either the prospect of the election of the 10 Howard Government or it was after the election of the 11 Howard Government when there was a danger to the union 12 movement survival. There was a fear of deregistration of 13 trade unions and an unprecedented attack upon trade union 14 and workers' rights. That's my understanding of the 15 environment in which the Union responded to this proposal 16 from Mr Sharkey. 17 18 Q. Do you know why $7 million was transferred to it? 19 A. Because there was a decision of the Committee of 20 Management of the Union to do that. The State Council of 21 the Union, the State-registered body of the Union, and 22 I understand it went to the National Executive of the 23 Union, so that was done consistent with a formal decision 24 of the Union. 25 26 Q. And by "the Union", we are talking about the CFMEU? 27 A. This is quite complex in that there's State and 28 Federal Unions and there's State and Federal bodies of 29 Unions, but holistically the whole of the Union, that's my 30 recollection. 31 32 Q. Your understanding is the $7 million came from the 33 CFMEU, not other unions; that is, not related to the CFMEU? 34 A. That's correct. 35 36 Q. You have said that the purpose of setting up the 37 organisation or the Trust was to defend the assets of not 38 just the CFMEU but for the whole of the labour 39 movement - yes? 40 A. That's correct. 41 42 Q. But the money, the $7 million, is only from the CFMEU, 43 that's right, you just agreed with that? 44 A. My understanding was that there was some additional 45 donations but not substantial. 46 47 Q. I suggest to you that the purpose of establishing the


1 Trust was indeed to defend or protect the CFMEU's assets 2 from future prospective creditors; do you agree? 3 A. I don't accept that. 4 5 Q. When you said, in your words, "defending the assets of 6 not just the CFMEU but the whole of the labour movement", 7 what did you mean? 8 A. From possible deregistration of the Union. We've seen 9 Right Wing governments in other countries deregister a 10 union, take their assets by legislation, and that was the 11 thinking of the Union at the time, and it was not just 12 about the CFMEU. Our vision was a much broader Trust to 13 assist the whole of the labour movement. 14 15 Q. Did you hear the evidence that was adduced when 16 Ms Mallia gave evidence in relation to this topic? 17 A. I don't recollect her evidence. 18 19 Q. Do you recall seeing the Trust documentation? 20 A. When? 21 22 Q. Recently, or back in 2005 when it was set up, or any 23 other time? 24 A. You have two questions there, so can we just break it 25 up? 26 27 Q. Have you ever seen the Trust documentation? 28 A. I don't recollect, but I'm certain I would have seen 29 it back when the Trust was established in relation to that 30 question. 31 32 Q. So are you aware whether or not the way the Trust was 33 established, that the CFMEU would retain substantial 34 control over the funds transfer? 35 A. I'm not certain that's correct. 36 37 Q. What's your understanding? 38 A. At that particular point of time where the initial 39 contribution came from the CFMEU, that was the case. I'm 40 not convinced that was the intention long-term. We had 41 a vision of other unions making contributions to this Trust 42 and, inevitably, that would have meant a change to the 43 Trust Deeds, if that's the correct terminology, to embrace 44 other unions and other stakeholders in the labour movement. 45 46 Q. As it turned out, though, the $7 million-plus, as you 47 have indicated, a very small amount of additional money was


1 really the sum total of the assets of the Trust - that's 2 right? 3 A. At different points of time it also included interest 4 that had been earned on investments. Our vision was not 5 successful despite great efforts. 6 7 Q. What great efforts? 8 A. Most significantly, I think, we distributed thousands 9 of leaflets through the labour movement in New South Wales 10 about the formation of the Trust, encouraging other 11 stakeholders to become members, and my recollection is also 12 that Mr Jim Macken, who is a former judge, I think, of the 13 Supreme Court spoke at Unions NSW appealing to other unions 14 to come on board and support this concept to defend the 15 labour movement. 16 17 Q. Are you aware of the nature of the grants made out of 18 the Trust? 19 A. I'm not too sure what that means. 20 21 Q. Are you aware how the distributions were made from the 22 Trust? 23 A. I'm aware that there were applications to the Trust 24 for funding and those issues were given appropriate 25 consideration, and there were decisions in respect of 26 applications for funding. 27 28 Q. Apart from two instances, do you agree that all of the 29 large transactions; that is, any over $6,000, apart from 30 two, were all made to the CFMEU? 31 A. I couldn't verify that. I couldn't verify that. I 32 know the CFMEU were very active in making applications and 33 I know that they were successful. I could not verify the 34 statement you made. 35 36 Q. One of those two exceptions involved the MUA. Are you 37 aware of money that was distributed to that organisation? 38 A. I'm aware - the answer is yes. 39 40 Q. Perhaps if the witness could be provided with volume 2 41 of that series. 42 A. Thank you. There is a problem with it. 43 44 Q. Has it come out? Would you like some assistance? 45 A. No, I am right with that. Okay. Page? 46 47 Q. Page 331.


1 A. I've got page 331. 2 3 Q. Do you see there in 2006 there was a request by the 4 Maritime Union of Australia for $300,000? 5 A. Can I read that correspondence? 6 7 Q. Actually, you will need to read additional to that. 8 A. I will need to read the? 9 10 Q. There is an Application For Funding immediately behind 11 it and then if you could go to 352. 12 A. I am looking at - sorry. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry to interrupt you, 15 Mr Ferguson. I was just a little confused. Ms McNaughton, 16 you said behind page 331 there was an Application for 17 Funding. The way I read it on the page is this. That on 18 page 353 there was an Application for Funding and the 19 intervening pages, perhaps, were materials delivered in 20 support of that application. Is that right? 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. That is a much better way of saying 23 it, yes, Commissioner. 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Ferguson, you were about to say 26 something, which I interrupted? 27 A. Just on page 331, there is no reference to $300,000. 28 29 Q. Other than the handwriting on it. Do you see "Paid 30 $300,000 Chq 12"? 31 A. I see that. Are you referring to the application? 32 33 Q. I beg your pardon. Page 334, a submission dated 34 21 June of the Maritime Union of Australia, and the 35 second-last line of the substance of it: 36 37 ... will require several years of 38 commitment and development and request 39 seeding funds of $300K. 40 41 Do you see that? 42 A. I see the sum of $300,000, that's correct. 43 44 Q. Does that accord with your recollection of an amount 45 of money being paid to the Maritime Union, that amount of 46 money? 47 A. Could I quickly familiarise myself with the


1 correspondence and the attachments? 2 3 Q. Please. 4 A. There is about 20 pages. 5 6 Q. Certainly. 7 8 MS McNAUGHTON: Would that be a convenient time, 9 Commissioner? 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. We should be having an 12 application unrelated to the present hearing so, yes, it is 13 a convenient time. 14 15 MR CONDON: Can I ask, if my learned friend has anything 16 else to show the witness on this particular issue, that it 17 be identified now so Mr Ferguson could do this all at once? 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: That is a reasonable request. You may 20 not agree with it. 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: Certainly. I would also draw his 23 attention to pages 13 and 14 of the Additional Documents. 24 25 MR CONDON: I am obliged to my friend. That would assist. 26 27 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: I will return to the hearing room 30 shortly. 31 32 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Notice has been given that an 35 application was to be made. Yes, Mr Newlinds? 36 37 MR CONDON: Before that happens, Commissioner, can 38 Mr Ferguson leave the witness box? 39 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Ferguson can leave the witness 41 box. It might be an idea just to remain in the precincts 42 of the hearing room for a short time. It may be that you 43 can go away for a while and attend to your, no doubt, busy 44 affairs, but you can certainly leave the witness box now. 45 46 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Commissioner. 47


1 MR CONDON: Obliged. 2 3 (The witness left the hearing room) 4 5 (Submissions re ACTU Application ensued) 6 7 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 8 9 <ANDREW JAMES FERGUSON, recalled, on previous oath: 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry to chop up your evidence, 12 Mr Ferguson, but welcome back. Now, Ms McNaughton? 13 14 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON CONTINUING: 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. 17 18 Q. Sir, I was asking you before that break, from this 19 part of the hearing, in relation to the Committee to Defend 20 Trade Union Rights? 21 A. Correct. 22 23 Q. In particular, I had drawn your attention to the MUA 24 request for funding and I have also drawn your attention 25 and that of your Senior Counsel to certain pages I wish you 26 to have regard to. 27 A. I've got those in front of me. 28 29 Q. Have you had a look at both the successful request for 30 funding for the MUA in 2006? 31 A. No, I've been outside when this document has been left 32 here. 33 34 Q. Would you like time to have a look at those pages that 35 have been drawn to your attention? 36 A. I don't have the detail of what pages at the moment. 37 I understand the covering letter, which I need to read, and 38 then the pages are? 39 40 Q. I am sorry, I did provide them to your counsel. 41 A. But I didn't have the document. 42 43 Q. Certainly. I am not suggesting there is anything 44 wrong. There are a number of pages. 45 A. I am going to take a note, if you don't mind. 46 47 Q. Certainly. Do you have volume 2 there?


1 A. CTDTUR Volume 2 of 3, and then I've got page 331 open 2 which relates to the Maritime Union of Australia. 3 4 Q. Yes, and the rest of that tab. 5 A. The rest of that tab. The whole of the tab? 6 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Okay. Do you want me to read that? 9 10 Q. You don't have to read word-for-word, but if you want 11 to glance at -- 12 A. I'd prefer more than glance, if you don't mind. 13 I want to make sure I am dealing with the issue properly. 14 I am not suggesting read word-for-word, but I want to make 15 sure I've got a familiarity with this issue. 16 17 Q. Page 331 you could read in detail. 18 A. Okay. 19 20 Q. Page 332 and following, you could just familiarise 21 yourself with those pages. Then page -- 22 A. 332 until page? 23 24 Q. To the end of that tab, but, in particular, of those 25 remaining pages, have a look at page 352 in some detail. 26 A. I will proceed to do that. 27 28 Q. And also page 353, you will see a bank statement as 29 well. 30 A. 353. Is it possible just to start that process and 31 then -- 32 33 Q. Certainly. 34 A. We've dealt with this issue before. There is 35 a covering letter and then there's a number of different 36 pages. 37 38 Q. Yes. 39 A. I'm not verifying that is the attachment to that 40 correspondence at that particular point of time, I think 41 that's understood. 42 43 Q. Yes. Also, sir, while you are there, page 334 you 44 could look at in some detail, if you would be kind enough, 45 especially the last section of that. 46 A. I am going to familiarise myself with the whole 47 document and those pages in particular.


1 2 Q. Thank you. Mr Ferguson, I hesitate to interrupt but 3 do you have the effect of the application? 4 A. I am on the last page and then I intend to focus on 5 the pages you have asked me to give particular attention 6 to. 7 8 Q. Thank you. 9 A. I have a familiarity with the file and then 10 page - I want to be clear - 352? 11 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. I am going to go to that page now. 14 15 Q. Yes, please. 16 A. Is it page 344, because I'm not sure that it is? 17 18 Q. No, pages 352 and 353 should be sufficient for the 19 moment. 20 A. Thank you. 21 22 Q. If you would also be kind enough to look at volume 1 23 of 3 of CTDTUR? 24 A. I've got that. 25 26 Q. Go please to page 134. 27 A. I have page 134 which I'll read. 28 29 Q. Yes, please, especially - well, yes. 30 A. Read page 134? 31 32 Q. It is only short. 33 A. Sorry? 34 35 Q. Yes. 36 A. I've read page 134. 37 38 Q. Do you see the effect of those documents is that the 39 Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights Trust granted 40 $300,000 of income to the Maritime Union of Australia back 41 in 2006? 42 A. I'm not too sure for the benefit of the Maritime Union 43 of Australia. 44 45 Q. All right. Well, what would you say? 46 47 MR CONDON: Commissioner, I rise to object only on this


1 basis. There is an additional piece of information about 2 this particular ground on the page that my learned friend 3 has not taken the witness to. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: I am having - it is unquestionably my 6 fault - a bit of difficulty in hearing what you are saying. 7 Could you just repeat the last sentence of your submission? 8 9 MR CONDON: It is my fault. My learned friend has taken 10 the witness to page 134, which records what it does there. 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 13 14 MR CONDON: And quite properly now Ms McNaughton is asking 15 this witness about his recollection of the events. Having 16 quite properly reminded Mr Ferguson of the contents of 17 these documents, perhaps he should be reminded of an 18 additional entry on another page. 19 20 MS McNAUGHTON: I am certainly happy to do that. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Which page? 23 24 MR CONDON: Page 133. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Right. That solves that problem. Yes, 27 Ms McNaughton? 28 29 MR CONDON: Thank you, I am most obliged. 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, do you have page 133 there? 32 A. 133 of volume 1 of 3? 33 34 Q. Yes. 35 A. Will I read this page? 36 37 Q. I think it is under the heading halfway down the page, 38 "Application for Grants"? 39 A. Okay, I've got that. 40 41 MR CONDON: I thank my friend. 42 43 THE WITNESS: I've read that. 44 45 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Do you understand $300,000 was 46 granted to the Maritime Union of Australia in 2006? 47 A. Now or then?


1 2 Q. Did you understand then? 3 A. I understand the application from the Maritime Union 4 of Australia and now, and then, I understand that they were 5 acting on behalf of a broader group and I note, I think, at 6 page 335 there are a number of logos of a variety of 7 Australian Trade Unions and International Union bodies. My 8 understanding was it was the Maritime Union of Australia 9 and a much broader collective of unions working for 10 international solidarity of seafarers. 11 12 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you, please, to look at the 13 Additional Documents folder which is MFI-2. 14 A. Additional Documents? 15 16 Q. Please turn to page 13 in the first instance. 17 A. And I'll read that? 18 19 Q. Just if it assists you, can you see on page 12 it is 20 part of the minutes of a meeting of the CFMEU Construction 21 and General Division NSW Divisional Branch, 14 December 22 2007, and this is under the heading on page 13 of 23 those minutes. Page 9 of the document but page 13 of the 24 bundle. The heading is: 25 26 Maritime Union of Australia Donation 27 28 A. I am not too sure if it is the State-registered Union 29 or the Federal Union but we will proceed, will we? I've 30 read that. 31 32 Q. Do you see there that the President reported that the 33 Maritime Union of Australia had recently made a decision to 34 donate $330,000 to the Union. 35 36 The MUA's decision arose as a consequence 37 of the extensive financial, political and 38 industrial support that this Union has 39 given the MUA, the Seamen's Union of 40 Australia, and the Waterside Workers 41 Federation of Australia over many decades, 42 and also as a result of the attacks by the 43 ABCC and its task force upon the CFMEU, 44 which have had serious affects upon the 45 Union's membership, its finances and its 46 organisational capacity. 47


1 Over the page, page 14, do you see there what appears to be 2 a receipt issued by "Construction, Forestry, Mining & 3 Energy Union Construction & General Division NSW Branch", 4 it has been generated as a duplicate receipt this year, on 5 6 August, and that is why Mr Parker's name has come up, but 6 do you see the other details are "Sundries receipt for 7 10 December 2007", received from the MUA for $330,000, 8 being for "Miscellaneous donation"? 9 A. And the assumption is that's the receipt? I've got no 10 doubt - I've got no ability to confirm that. 11 12 Q. My question to you, sir, is: is there any 13 relationship between the grant or distribution made in 14 those six to the MUA, as you say on behalf of a number of 15 organisations, as well as the MUA, and this donation to the 16 CFMEU the following year? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. You know that for a fact, do you? 20 A. Well, they're separate organisations dealing with 21 separate agenda items and separate decision-making. 22 23 Q. So the fact that it is a very similar amount of money, 24 so a grant of $300,000, and then a donation of $330,000 the 25 following year was just a coincidence, is it? 26 A. There's a long history of extraordinary financial and 27 organisational and political support between the two Unions 28 involving hundreds of thousands of dollars over many 29 decades. 30 31 Q. And if you would accept from me that apart from one 32 other instance, this is the only large grant made to any 33 organisation, apart from the CFMEU, would you accept that 34 from me? 35 A. Okay then. 36 37 Q. This appears to indicate that a very similar amount 38 was donated back to the CFMEU and you say that is 39 a coincidence, do you? 40 A. That's correct. 41 42 Q. Thank you. That can be put to one side. Can I ask 43 you still on this same Case Study of the Committee to 44 Defend Trade Union Rights, do you know anything about the 45 Committee being invited to purchase shares in the Trade 46 Union Centre, Wollongong? 47 A. I've got a recollection of this issue being on the


1 agenda for the Trust many years ago, that's correct. 2 3 Q. Do you understand that the Committee went ahead and 4 did that? 5 A. That's my recollection. 6 7 Q. And that a payment was made of over $400,000 in order 8 to, what would appear to be, purchase shares? 9 A. I don't recollect the sum of money, and my 10 recollection related to purchase of property in Wollongong. 11 12 Q. Do you recall whether or not there was an arrangement 13 whereby the settlement of a loan was dealt with by way of 14 the issuing of shares? 15 A. I don't have that recollection, no. 16 17 Q. Could you please go to volume 1 of 3 -- 18 A. I'll just get the volume first if that's okay. I've 19 got volume 1 of 3, yes. 20 21 Q. Just to step through that -- 22 A. Sorry? 23 24 Q. Just to step through that, if you could go to 25 page 150. 26 A. I've got page 150. 27 28 Q. Do you see there a letter under the letterhead of 29 Trade Union Centre Pty Ltd, 18 December 2006, and it is to: 30 31 The Trustee 32 Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights 33 34 It is a meeting of the board of directors. It was resolved 35 that a number of different shares of different classes 36 would be offered and then, at the end, it says: 37 38 You are invited to consider this offer and 39 communicate your intention in writing ... 40 41 By a certain date in January 2007; do you see that? 42 A. I think I better read the letter if it's okay. 43 44 Q. Certainly. 45 A. I've read that. 46 47 Q. In particular, subparagraph (b):


1 2 One hundred and thirty four (134) "A" Class 3 shares and six (6) "B" class shares will be 4 offered to the Committee to Defend Trade 5 Union Rights Trust for the sum of $436,370 6 7 You saw that? 8 A. That's correct. 9 10 Q. Over on page 151, do you see there a document called: 11 12 Minutes of Directors Meeting 13 The Trade Union Centre Wollongong Pty Ltd 14 15 And under "Business": 16 17 1. Share offer. 18 19 The chair reported on negotiations with the 20 CFMEU (NSW Branch) C&G Division, the South 21 Coast Labor Council, and the CFMEU Mining & 22 Energy Division South Western District 23 regarding a proposal to settle all current 24 loans by way of a share issue. It is 25 proposed that the company shares become 26 fully subscribed with the aim of performing 27 a debt/equity transition. 28 29 A. I just want to re-read that. I have read that. 30 31 Q. And then page 154. 32 A. I've got that. 33 34 Q. Do you see there is an "Investment Commit Report" 35 about halfway down the page? 36 A. And this is minutes of, sorry? 37 38 Q. This is the minutes of the Directors of Committee to 39 Defend Trade Union Rights Pty Ltd? 40 A. Can I read the page? 41 42 Q. Certainly. 43 A. I've read that. 44 45 Q. Then over the page at page 155, under the heading, 46 "Investment Committee Report" about halfway down the page, 47 above the heading "Is It a Good Investment?", it says:


1 2 In an effort to ensure the Trade Union 3 movement still controls the company and all 4 existing loans were extinguished, a share 5 offer was made ... 6 7 A. I'm sorry, I've -- 8 9 Q. See the heading, "Is it a Good Investment?" 10 A. Is this the minutes of the previous meeting? 11 12 Q. It would appear so. 13 A. It would appear - well, I don't know that. I am not 14 arguing. I am just trying to understand the document. 15 Okay. And we are going halfway down the page? 16 17 Q. Yes. The heading: "Is it a Good Investment?" Just 18 above that, that dot point, do you see: 19 20 In an effort to ensure the Trade Union 21 movement still controls the company and all 22 existing loans were extinguished, a share 23 offer was made which included an offer to 24 the Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights. 25 26 Do you see that? 27 A. I see that, yes. 28 29 Q. If you kindly go to page 170, do you see there 30 a statement for the Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights 31 Pty Ltd, a bank statement of the Commonwealth Bank? 32 A. That's correct. 33 34 Q. And do you see there on 26 February, a $436,370 35 credit? 36 A. No, I don't see that. 37 38 Q. Sorry, I was reading ahead. A debit, I beg your 39 pardon. 40 A. That's correct. 41 42 Q. That appears, therefore, to be money coming out of 43 that account pursuant to, it would appear, a cheque? 44 A. It appears to be cheque 26. 45 46 Q. Yes. And then do you see at page 171 -- 47 A. I have page 171.


1 2 Q. -- "Associated Entity Annual Return: 3 4 Name of associated entity. 5 6 It says essentially the CFMEU NSW Branch Construction and 7 General Division, do you see that? 8 A. It's bad writing but, anyway. That's correct. 9 10 Q. Then annexed to that is a list of amounts. Page 173, 11 is the beginning of a list: 12 13 Item 2. Amounts of more than $10,300 14 received ... 15 16 A. I have page 173 and? 17 18 Q. I am just drawing your attention to the heading, 19 "Item 2", do you see that? 20 A. That's correct. 21 22 Q. And it goes over the page to page 174, and do you see 23 about two-thirds of the way down the page, do you see 24 under, "Name", "Trade Union Centre, Wollongong"? 25 A. That's correct. 26 27 Q. Lowden Square, Wollongong, and an amount of $436,370? 28 A. I see that. 29 30 Q. Do you see that the effect of the transaction was that 31 the Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights made a payment 32 to the Trade Union Centre, Wollongong, which then paid that 33 money to the CFMEU in return for which the Committee to 34 Defend Trade Union Rights got shares in the Trade Union 35 Centre, Wollongong, do you understand the effect of all of 36 that? 37 A. I actually haven't fully understood it, but -- 38 39 Q. Do you recall being on the Committee at that time? 40 A. The answer is yes. 41 42 Q. Do you recall it being discussed at that time? 43 A. I've got a recollection of an advice being received 44 about a good investment in property in Wollongong, and that 45 matter being subject to questions and discussion and 46 a decision being made. I don't have a recollection now 47 about the effect in terms of the CFMEU. My understanding


1 was that the Trust, I thought, purchased property at that 2 point of time. 3 4 Q. So apart from the Maritime Union of Australia 5 distribution and this arrangement, it would appear, if you 6 would accept from me, that all transactions over $6,000 7 were made to the CFMEU? 8 A. As I said earlier, I'm not sure on that issue but 9 you've drawn attention to two substantial expenditure 10 items. 11 12 Q. And it would appear that the Trust was - actually, 13 before I ask you that, I'll withdraw that. Can you recall 14 any other substantial transactions? 15 A. At this point, no. 16 17 Q. It would appear that the Trust was being largely 18 operated for the benefit of the CFMEU, would you agree with 19 that? 20 A. Definitely not. 21 22 Q. Can I now ask you to put those volumes to one side. 23 If I can ask you some questions about Coverforce. 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. You currently have a position with the organisation of 27 Coverforce; is that right? 28 A. That's correct. 29 30 Q. Is it the case that when you were Secretary of the 31 Union, that you became involved with the negotiation of 32 insurance provided by that organisation? 33 A. I don't think the negotiation of insurance, no. 34 35 Q. Did you have any involvement with the negotiation of 36 any product with that organisation yourself? 37 A. I don't have a recollection, but I know the Union 38 discussed the benefits structure, being workers 39 compensation top-up and out of work accident insurance. So 40 I had involvement in a discussion with the Union about the 41 benefits for the workers in the industry. 42 43 Q. Are you aware whether or not a clause came into the 44 EBA in relation to providing insurance for workers using 45 either Coverforce, or a product provided by them, or as 46 good as that product? 47 A. My recollection --


1 2 Q. Good or better than. 3 A. My recollection is there were provisions in enterprise 4 bargaining and project bargaining agreements going back 5 more than 20 years prior to my election as Secretary, so my 6 recollection goes earlier than the date of becoming 7 Secretary of the Union. 8 9 Q. From 2003 through to 2009, was there a scheme by which 10 employers with the CFMEU negotiated EBA paid insurance 11 premiums for U-Plus insurance cover? 12 A. Paid insurance premiums? I'm not too sure if the 13 words "insurance premiums" are correct. Possibly, yes. 14 They paid a fee to Coverforce, and then Coverforce then 15 paid for insurance with companies external to Coverforce 16 because Coverforce is not an insurance company. 17 18 Q. It is a broker? 19 A. It's an insurance broker, that's correct. 20 21 Q. Well, a product administered by Coverforce, do you 22 understand that employers paid, as you say, a fee and then 23 Coverforce paid for insurance with companies external to 24 Coverforce? 25 A. That's correct. 26 27 Q. Do you understand that some shared services payments 28 were paid to the CFMEU which came out of that fee? 29 A. I don't know if it came out of that fee. I know that 30 there was an approach from Coverforce to reimburse the 31 Union for expenses incurred. I don't recollect having 32 involvement in that issue. I know there was a discussion 33 in the Union about the issue, and I was pleased with that 34 proposal, and the work, to the best of my recollection, was 35 done by Rita Mallia in relation to a reimbursement 36 arrangement. 37 38 Q. So the effect of that, do you understand, was that the 39 Union received a certain dollar amount for every person 40 covered by an EBA who was insured under the U-Plus 41 insurance scheme? 42 A. My understanding was that there was a reimbursement of 43 a fee of something like $1 per month for every worker -- 44 45 MR BOTSMAN: I object. Just as a general matter, having 46 regard to the confidentiality arrangements which have been 47 in place, which are yet to be ruled on, I understand that,


1 really if my friend can insure that regard is had to that 2 arrangement, that pro tem arrangement. 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. 5 6 Q. Without mentioning precise dollar amounts, if you 7 could indicate a figure was provided? 8 A. My recollection is that there was a small payment per 9 worker per month on each return, so it's not the number of 10 workers covered by the enterprise bargaining agreement, and 11 that was for reimbursement of expenses that were being 12 incurred by the Union. 13 14 Q. Do you understand that the CFMEU received annually 15 hundreds of thousands of dollars pursuant to this 16 arrangement? 17 A. In what period? 18 19 Q. From 2003 till the time that you ceased being 20 Secretary of the Union? 21 A. I don't have a recollection of the sum of money being 22 received. I know that we were being reimbursed for the 23 expenses we incurred, but I couldn't comment on the scale 24 of the reimbursement. 25 26 Q. Can you assist the Commission with what expenses the 27 Union incurred? 28 A. The answer is, yes, and there is a variety of 29 services -- 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: I notice the time, Commissioner. Would it 32 be convenient to break now? 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Ferguson, I think, is in mid answer. 35 Let us just let the answer finish. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: I was just concerned that it might be 38 a lengthy answer and he could continue, that's all. 39 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Ferguson, is it best for you to 41 finish your answer now, or to start and finish your answer 42 straight after the adjournment? 43 A. I think I was asked a question. I'm comfortable in 44 responding. I don't want to be cut off on my answer. 45 I want to try and give accurate information to the 46 Commission. 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Thank you. Please, I wanted you to 2 have plenty of time, that was my concern. 3 A. And I will seek to be concise. The first thing is 4 there was no Union in the industry, and probably in the 5 country, that employed officials and staff that had more 6 language skills than we had at this point of time. For 7 example, we spoke Durri, Fasi, Arabic, Korean, Mandarin, 8 Croatian, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Greek, Hindi. So, 9 one of the great invaluable services we provided was 10 a workforce that was able to communicate with a workforce 11 in the industry, be it Union or non-Union, to explain the 12 benefits' structure of the product and to respond to both 13 employers, also where there is considerable language 14 difficulties, it's not just the workforce, it is also the 15 employers in the industry; to explain the product. 16 Further, that workforce, including people that obviously 17 speak English, systematically assisted workers when they 18 had questions about a claim or a potential claim. Further, 19 that workforce assisted claimants, obviously often Union 20 members, but I would say in many cases also non-Union 21 members and also employers, as I said. 22 23 We assisted with the distribution of information about 24 the product, the benefit, to the workforce across the 25 industry in New South Wales, not just in Sydney but across 26 New South Wales; to disseminate information was incurring 27 an expense by the Union. 28 29 To the best of my recollection, we put articles in our 30 Union journal and often when there were articles in our 31 Union journal promoting services and products, we normally 32 charged for an advertising dollar that you are aware of. 33 To the best of my recollection there was no charge for that 34 type of promotional advertising in the Union journal. We 35 produced, to the best of my recollection, many leaflets, 36 posters, hardhat stickers that had the logo of the product 37 contained on that Union literature. 38 39 We spent time looking at the benefits' structure and 40 over a period of time, working to analyse legislation - and 41 we are talking about workers compensation legislation in 42 particular - so that the product adequately met the needs 43 of building workers. So they are some of the things. 44 I haven't had an opportunity to fully think about the 45 answer, but it shows a very comprehensive effort by the 46 Union at considerable expense to do a job for the industry. 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Ferguson's hearing will resume 4 at 2pm, but there will be a resumption of the other 5 application at 1.30pm. 6 7 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 8 9 (The hearing resumed at 1.55pm) 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Ferguson. 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. You were asked before lunchtime, sir, 14 about money paid to the CFMEU and you said that it was in 15 relation to reimbursement of expenses, essentially; is that 16 correct? 17 A. That is fundamentally how I understood it to be. 18 19 Q. Do you understand, though, it was a flat fee? 20 A. Sorry? 21 22 Q. It was a flat fee? 23 A. My understanding is it was a flat fee with an 24 additional payment if the workforce - if the number of 25 people covered by the scheme increased over a certain 26 number. 27 28 Q. So it wasn't in a traditional sense a calculation of 29 actual expenses and a reimbursement of that calculated 30 amount? 31 A. I understood it, and it was substantially less than 32 the cost we were incurring. 33 34 Q. Was the arrangement pursuant to some sort of written 35 agreement or was it just oral? 36 A. To the best of my recollection, there was no written 37 agreement. 38 39 Q. And why was that? 40 A. I think the legal officer of the Union, Rita Mallia, 41 at the time was discussing the issue with Coverforce and 42 I don't know the reason the matter wasn't finalised. 43 44 Q. Are you aware whether or not employers or workers were 45 made aware of the fact that the CFMEU was receiving money 46 from Coverforce? 47 A. Employers or workers? I'm not sure. We are talking


1 about the reimbursement, not any other money. 2 3 Q. Yes. Well, what other money? 4 A. No, there's no other money. You said "money". I'm 5 talking about reimbursement, yes. 6 7 Q. Essentially, you would agree that the CFMEU were paid 8 to promote the Coverforce product? 9 A. I don't think I understood it to be to promote the 10 Coverforce product. To promote income protection, 11 benefits, to communicate with the workforce to use our 12 language skills, to make sure we provided accurate 13 information to employers and workers about the benefit 14 structure and how it interfaced with workers' compensation 15 legislation. I didn't have in my mind that we were 16 promoting Coverforce or an insurance company, no. 17 18 Q. But that was the product that was being essentially 19 promoted, isn't that the fact? 20 A. I don't accept that. 21 22 Q. Were there other firms' products that were being made 23 available to CFMEU members, or workers to be covered by EBA 24 agreements? 25 A. Could you break the question down, please? 26 27 Q. Were there other firms or companies' products that 28 were being made available to CFMEU members, or non-members, 29 workers, to be covered by EBA agreements? 30 A. There were enterprise bargaining agreements where the 31 workforce were not covered by Coverforce but covered by 32 other income insurance arrangements. 33 34 Q. Was the CFMEU, though, confined to promoting the 35 Coverforce arrangement? 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. They were able to promote any arrangement, were they? 39 A. In our enterprise bargaining agreement, we made 40 provision for a certain standard of benefits, or an 41 alternate provider if there was benefits of equal or 42 greater value, and there were occasions when that occurred. 43 44 Q. How did those firms come to the attention of the 45 parties to the negotiations? 46 A. From the bargaining process. 47


1 Q. Mr Angelis has come along to the Commission and has 2 provided a statement. Have you had the opportunity of 3 seeing his statement? 4 A. I familiarised myself with it, but I can't recollect 5 all the detail. 6 7 Q. In the course of his statement at paragraph 40 and 8 particularly 40(b), he sets out in these terms: 9 10 The CFMEU was responsible for promoting the 11 U-Plus product to employees and employers 12 within the industries in which it was 13 operating, and seeking to include in 14 bargaining agreements a requirement that an 15 employer would take out income protection 16 insurance for its employees. 17 18 A. Could I have a copy to help? 19 20 Q. It is up on the screen, but we could potentially have 21 a hardcopy made available. 22 A. Page? 23 24 Q. Page 6 of Mr Angelis's statement. 25 A. I need to go to that, if I could. We're referring to 26 paragraph? 27 28 Q. 40(b). 29 A. 40(b), and I'll read that? 30 31 Q. Yes, please. I just read it but you may read it 32 again. 33 A. I've read that. 34 35 Q. Are you able to say whether or not that accurately 36 represents your understanding of the arrangement between 37 Coverforce and the CFMEU between 1994 and 2013? 38 A. I'm not sure. That is Mr Angelis's understanding. My 39 understanding is that we're providing a service and if 40 there is an income protection scheme that has got equal or 41 better benefits than the one we had identified as being 42 suitable for the industry, that would have been acceptable 43 to the Union. 44 45 Q. Also, can I draw your attention to paragraph 42, at 46 the foot of the same page of Mr Angelis's statement. He 47 states:


1 2 Initially the CFMEU did not receive any 3 payment for the insurance placed through 4 U-Plus. To the best of my knowledge it was 5 approximately 2002 when an agreement was 6 reached been Coverforce and the CFMEU that 7 the CFMEU would receive a fee paid from 8 Coverforce's commission in respect of the 9 insurance placed through U-Plus. My 10 recollection is that I initiated the 11 proposal - 12 13 -- that is Mr Angelis -- 14 15 - to pay a fee to the CFMEU in 16 consideration of the work undertaken by the 17 CFMEU in relation to the U-Plus product. 18 19 Does that accord with your recollection? 20 A. I don't know if it was 2002. I don't know if it was a 21 fee paid from commission, I don't have knowledge of that. 22 I don't remember the Union initiating the dialogue, so I'm 23 assuming that's correct when it is said that Mr Angelis 24 initiated the proposal and, certainly, in consideration of 25 work undertaken by the Union is correct. We were doing 26 enormous work and weren't being reimbursed for it. 27 28 Q. I think you earlier said that you don't know whether 29 or not employers and workers were made aware of the fact 30 that the CFMEU was getting money from the Coverforce 31 arrangement. 32 A. I know a number of workers were aware of it, for 33 example. 34 35 Q. Do you know whether or not they were made aware of it 36 systematically? 37 A. I'm not sure that is the case, but I certainly know 38 that it wasn't a secret, that we were being reimbursed. 39 40 Q. What do you mean that you know it wasn't a secret? 41 A. That on the Committee of Management of the Union, 42 there are 30 workers that work on building sites across 43 Sydney representing thousands of workers. On the State 44 Council of the Union there's 50 workers representing 45 thousands of workers across Sydney. There was regular 46 delegates' meetings, monthly, where there were hundreds of 47 delegates representing the majority of the workforce, the


1 majority of the membership, who were clearly advised that 2 the Union was being reimbursed for the expenses we 3 incurred, and we had obligations to make sure we were doing 4 a good job on behalf of the workforce and the Union 5 members. 6 7 Q. Was that in writing, that they were clearly advised? 8 A. In writing to who? 9 10 Q. To the workers. 11 A. I don't understand the question. 12 13 Q. Were the workers advised in writing that the Union was 14 being, as you say, reimbursed for the expenses you 15 incurred? 16 A. It would have been in - it was in reports to meetings 17 in relation to income protection and also in relation to 18 finance reports. 19 20 Q. What reports to meetings? 21 A. Sorry? 22 23 Q. What reports to meetings? 24 A. As I indicated, the reports on income protection that 25 were done on a regular basis to Committee of Management, 26 State Council, delegates' meetings, meetings of officials, 27 where it was communicated clearly that we are now being 28 reimbursed for our services. 29 30 Q. Sorry, how was that meant to flow through to the 31 individual worker on a building site? 32 A. The workplace elect workplace representatives who are 33 called Union delegates. Those Union delegates attend, and 34 did attend, on a monthly basis meetings of delegates. They 35 were provided with reports and they were required to report 36 back to the workforce on their sites, and the same logic 37 applied in relation to the workers that were on the 38 Committee of Management, the State Council of the Union, 39 they're obliged to make sure they accurately and properly 40 reported back to the workforce they were representing, and 41 the officials. 42 43 Q. Do you have any written support of what you've just 44 said? Is there anything in writing to support that that 45 occurred? 46 A. That there was delegates' meetings? 47


1 Q. No, that the delegates reported back to the workers 2 that the CFMEU received money from Coverforce? 3 A. Is there anything in writing saying that? Not to my 4 knowledge. It was very much core Union work. You're 5 elected, you represent the workforce, you go to meetings, 6 you come back and you report the outcome of meetings. 7 8 Q. You don't know, though, whether or not that particular 9 fact was communicated systematically to workers, do you? 10 A. I'm confident it would have been. 11 12 Q. You don't know? 13 A. I'm confident it would have been. 14 15 Q. Do you know whether or not your delegates provided 16 information to workers on building sites that they could 17 receive independent advice in relation to the insurance 18 product? 19 A. Could you just repeat that? 20 21 Q. Do you know whether or not your delegates provided 22 information to workers on building sites that they could 23 receive independent advice in relation to insurance 24 products? 25 A. I'm not too sure of that detail. 26 27 Q. Do you know what information was provided to employers 28 during the course of negotiating EBAs as to the fact that 29 the CFMEU was in receipt of money from Coverforce? 30 A. We're referring to the reimbursement issue. I don't 31 have that knowledge. I know there was a lot of information 32 produced by Coverforce that was being systematically made 33 available to employers and employer bodies. 34 35 Q. Do you agree that it was appropriate that workers and 36 employers should be made systematically aware that the 37 CFMEU was in receipt of money from Coverforce? 38 A. If there's a reimbursement of some expenses being 39 incurred, less than the cost, I wouldn't regard that as a 40 number one priority or a priority even. 41 42 Q. Do you see that a potential conflict of interest could 43 arise in circumstances where the CFMEU regularly gets paid 44 a flat rate from the Coverforce entity? 45 A. Definitely not. 46 47 MR CONDON: Perhaps a conflict of interest should be


1 identified with more precision, Commissioner. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: He said "definitely not", that covers 4 the waterfront. That covers all possible constructions, 5 I think. 6 7 MR CONDON: Yes. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: We will let the answer stand. 10 11 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Other than one other matter which 12 I need to attend to for the BTG D and A, these will be my 13 last few questions. Could I please ask you, sir, to have 14 MFI-15. 15 A. Thank you. 16 17 Q. And also, I think, just for clarity to have MFI-16 as 18 well, please. 19 A. Thank you. 20 21 Q. I asked you earlier this morning about the section 22 where Steve Dixon was reported as saying money was only for 23 Drug and Alcohol, not OH&S. Can I ask you about the next 24 portion of that handwritten note, please, where it says: 25 26 When we got the payment, BTG Exec officers 27 met and decided $18,181.82 for drug and 28 alcohol and $72,727.29 for BTG for safety. 29 30 Do you see the words there "when we got the payment BTG 31 executive officers met and decided", that portion, who were 32 the BTG Executive officers? 33 A. We're going back to 2007. To the best of my 34 recollection, Tony Papa, myself. I don't know who the 35 additional Executive officers were, if there were any. 36 37 Q. You were part of the decision-making about the $72,000 38 and the $18,000? 39 A. That's correct. 40 41 Q. You said the BTG officers were Tony Papa, yourself and 42 you don't know who the additional Executive officers were. 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. Were there any, even if you can't recall who they 46 were? 47 A. I'm not sure.


1 2 Q. Could you try your hardest to think out of the BTG 3 Executive meeting, was there just two of you or was there 4 more than two? 5 A. I can't recollect who were the Executive officers, no, 6 I'm very sure of that. 7 8 Q. Did the BTG Executive actually meet formally? 9 A. Rarely. 10 11 Q. Ever? 12 A. Probably. 13 14 Q. So you've got a very hazy recollection? 15 A. Of Executive officers' meetings. I've got 16 recollection of meetings of the Building Trades Group of 17 Unions, but not there being some official Executive 18 separate from that structure. 19 20 Q. Can you recall how the decision in 2006 was made, as 21 you have referred to in this memo of 2007? 22 A. Sorry? 23 24 Q. Can you recall how the decision, where it says "when 25 we got the payment BTG executive officers met and decided", 26 et cetera, can you recall how that decision was made? 27 A. I can't recall the detail, no. 28 29 Q. Or where? 30 A. I can't recall but I know meetings of the BTG in 2007 31 would have been at the CFMEU where all the meetings of the 32 BTG occurred, so I've got no reason to doubt that. 33 34 Q. Could it have been done over the phone? 35 A. I can't recollect. 36 37 Q. Did anyone take minutes of the meetings of the 38 Executive? 39 A. I'm not sure. 40 41 Q. So you don't know whether minutes were take at all? 42 A. As I said, there wasn't regular meetings of the 43 Executive. I don't have a recollection of there being a 44 minute book and minutes taking place. I don't have a 45 recollection of the meeting. 46 47 Q. At all?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. Did any meeting ever occur, sir? 4 A. Definitely. 5 6 Q. You say at the CFMEU offices; is that right? 7 A. Sorry? 8 9 Q. At the CFMEU offices? 10 A. I said the meetings of the BTG took place at the CFMEU 11 office and I'm meaning at Lidcombe. I don't recollect this 12 particular meeting, but when you ask where the meeting was, 13 I'd assume it was at the same venue where all the meetings 14 occurred. That's a reasonable -- 15 16 Q. You can't remember anything about them or who, apart 17 from you and Mr Papa, were there, is that the effect of 18 what you have said? 19 A. I didn't say that. 20 21 Q. All right. Can you remember anything about any BTG 22 Executive meeting? 23 A. As I said, I can't recollect Executive meetings for 24 the Building Trades Group. I remember regular meetings of 25 the Building Trades Group but not of the Executive, and I 26 can't remember this particular discussion. 27 28 Q. Are there any minutes of any BTG meeting? 29 A. I don't have responsibility for the minutes, so 30 I can't answer your question. 31 32 Q. Who does or who did? 33 A. They're either located in the CFMEU office or in a 34 previous office where the Union was located in the city 35 I don't know where the minutes are. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: They are my questions. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Borgeest? 40 41 <EXAMINATION BY MR BORGEEST: 42 43 MR BORGEEST: Q. Mr Ferguson, I act on behalf of 44 Tony Papa. You described in answer to questions a day or 45 two ago that the history of the Building Trades Group came 46 out of a history before your time and that in the early 47 days of your association with the CFMEU, and in the early

.17/08/2015 BTG D&A 706 A J FERGUSON (Mr Borgeest) Transcript produced by DTI UNCORRECTED PROOF

1 days of your association with the Building Trades Group, 2 one of the things you understood about it was that it was 3 organised under rules of the Trades and Labour Council; 4 another thing you understood about it was that one of its 5 primary activities was to bring together unions in the 6 building and construction industry around project 7 bargaining. Is that correct? 8 A. That was one of its main roles in the industry, that's 9 correct. 10 11 Q. Yes. I think you gave evidence that you drew a 12 distinction between that function of the Building Trades 13 Group at a time and a later focus of the activities of that 14 group on safety in the building and construction industry. 15 You've drawn that distinction, yes? 16 A. Most definitely. 17 18 Q. One of the reasons you've observed that distinction is 19 that as a function of changes in industrial relations 20 legislation, that the utility of the Building Trades Group 21 of Unions as a forum for discussing project bargaining had 22 changed? 23 A. Most definitely. 24 25 Q. Yes. The Building Trades Group of Unions, whether 26 organised under rules of the Trades and Labour Council, or 27 organised in some other way after the rules of that Council 28 changed, it was essentially a forum for the Unions you have 29 mentioned in the building and construction industry, it was 30 a forum for those Unions to cooperate; yes? 31 A. That's correct. 32 33 Q. In that forum, the principal voice for the 34 contribution of each of the respective Unions was the voice 35 of the Union Secretary, would you agree? 36 A. Could you repeat the question, please? 37 38 Q. In that forum, a forum for cooperation between the 39 Unions, the principal voice on behalf of those respective 40 Unions was the voice of the Union secretary? 41 A. The Union Secretary meaning the respective affiliates 42 didn't always turn up. I recollect, for example, a period 43 of time when Brian Beer, who was the President of the 44 Metalworkers Union was a very regular attender at Building 45 Trades Group meetings. It wasn't always the Secretary that 46 was in attendance. 47


1 Q. I understand that Mr Papa will say that he was asked 2 to become the Secretary of the Building Trades Group of 3 Unions at a point in time, and he says that that request to 4 him came after his predecessor had suffered a certain 5 medical event? 6 A. Mr Childs. 7 8 Q. Yes. His recollection is that it might have been 9 either yourself or Michael Knott who requested that he 10 become the Secretary of the Building Trades Group of 11 Unions. Do you have any recollection of a request being 12 made to Tony to take on that role? 13 A. I remember our previous Secretary being medically 14 incapacitated. I don't have a recollection of myself or 15 Michael Knott or Peter McClelland, I don't know who 16 approached Mr Papa. 17 18 Q. Yes. Mr Papa's function as Secretary of the Building 19 Trades Group of Unions, as you understood it, was to take 20 care of signing documents when requested, would you agree? 21 A. Relevant to the BTG, that's correct. 22 23 Q. Yes. At the time that Mr Papa was Secretary, and 24 while you were Secretary of the Union, Mr Papa was an 25 organiser of the CFMEU, wasn't he? 26 A. That's correct. 27 28 Q. Yes. He worked out of the city office, to your 29 recollection? 30 A. That's correct and - from the city office? Always, to 31 the best of my recollection. 32 33 Q. He was, in his work as a Union organiser, subordinate 34 to you within the hierarchy of the CFMEU? 35 A. I'm not sure I like the word "subordinate", but he was 36 a field organiser working under the direction of the Union 37 representing workers, visiting workplaces, dealing in 38 particular work safety issues. 39 40 MR BORGEEST: No further questions, Commissioner. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Borgeest. Mr Botsman? . 43 44 MR BOTSMAN: Commissioner, may I ask questions, if any, 45 after Mr Condon? 46 47 THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly. That is a little unusual.


1 I don't mind you - I may not even prevent that course. 2 I would just point out that if you want to ask a question 3 just before Mr Condon, that would be fine, but Mr Condon is 4 Mr Ferguson's counsel and normally it is the witness in the 5 box whose counsel goes last so as to - and I am not saying 6 this is necessary for Mr Ferguson - get further evidence 7 out; qualify some evidence. Yes, Mr Condon? 8 9 MR CONDON: I will allay Mr Botsman's concerns, I have 10 some questions to ask Mr Ferguson that don't traverse his 11 client's interests. 12 13 MR BOTSMAN: I'm obliged to Mr Condon. In that case -- 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: But you can renew the application if 16 you think there is a problem later. I am just pointing out 17 the ordinary course, that's all. 18 19 MR BOTSMAN: I accept that. Thank you, Commissioner. 20 I have no questions, Commissioner. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: You have liberty to raise that after 23 Mr Condon has finished, if you want. 24 25 MR BOTSMAN: Thank you for that. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Reitano? 28 29 MR REITANO: No questions, Commissioner. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Latham. 32 33 MR LATHAM: Yes, Commissioner, just two. 34 35 <EXAMINATION BY MR LATHAM: 36 37 MR LATHAM: Q. Mr Ferguson, I act for Mr Dixon. Could 38 you give the Commission your understanding of the safety 39 issues on the Chatswood to Epping railway line in late 40 2005? 41 A. I don't think I've got a recollection of any specific 42 safety issues at the end of 2005. I know that there was a 43 worker who had a heart attack on the job, I think it was at 44 an earlier date in 2005, and I'm aware that arising from 45 that Mr Dixon worked, if I can use the expression, 46 virtually full-time seeking to improve with management the 47 safety standards on the job, so that's my understanding of

.17/08/2015 BTG D&A 709 A J FERGUSON (Mr Latham) Transcript produced by DTI UNCORRECTED PROOF

1 that point. 2 3 Q. Could I ask that MFI-15 be placed up on the screen. 4 Do you have a copy of that available? 5 A. I think so, if that is the document - yes. 6 7 Q. Would you just look at that document and read the 8 handwritten note to yourself. It is clear, isn't it, that 9 the document infers that Mr McClelland does not have 10 pre-existing knowledge of the conversations that you refer 11 to? 12 A. I'd have to read it all again, but I don't accept 13 that. I know I spoke to Mr McClelland prior to this 14 document being received. We had received notice about this 15 ABCC matter two weeks earlier. We didn't ignore the issue 16 for two weeks. I spoke to Peter McClelland prior to this 17 document, and I wrote this document on a Saturday. 18 19 Q. When you spoke to Mr McClelland, it was fairly 20 recently, just before this document -- 21 A. It was after the advice that the ABCC had contacted 22 Mr Sharp; I understand that to be mid-September, and then 23 prior to the Saturday, 2 October. 24 25 MR LATHAM: I have nothing further, Commissioner. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Latham. Mr Agius, do you 28 have any questions of Mr Ferguson? 29 30 MR AGIUS: We have no questions. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Condon? 33 34 MR CONDON: Mr Cheshire. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: I do apologise, Mr Cheshire, yes. 37 38 MR CHESHIRE: No, thank you, Commissioner. 39 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Mr Condon? 41 42 MR CONDON: Thank you, Commissioner. 43 44 <EXAMINATION BY MR CONDON: 45 46 MR CONDON: Q. Mr Ferguson, can I take you to 2005 and 47 2006. What is your recollection of the number, in broad

.17/08/2015 BTG D&A 710 A J FERGUSON (Mr Condon) Transcript produced by DTI UNCORRECTED PROOF

1 terms, of EBAs that the CFMEU would enter into per annum? 2 A. It's certainly hundreds of enterprise bargaining 3 agreements. I've got in my mind at one point - and I can't 4 say it's 2005 or 2006 - where we had 1,000, for example, 5 but most years during that period there was hundreds of 6 agreements and if I had to make a thoughtful guess, I would 7 say perhaps 500 agreements, many of which were certified. 8 9 Q. Was there - and again I am addressing the questions 10 for 2005 and 2006 - a standard template EBA which was the 11 subject of perhaps individual negotiation? 12 A. That's correct. 13 14 Q. You were asked some questions about the standard 15 clause, and if one goes to page 50 of the Chronological 16 Bundle, it's referred to, the $2 per employee. 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Is it the Chronological Bundle or the 19 EBA bundle? 20 21 MR CONDON: Indeed, the Chronological Bundle. Page 50. 22 It is reproduced in the first paragraph. 23 24 Q. It is in front of you Mr Ferguson? 25 A. Could I have a copy, please? 26 27 Q. It's in front of you, Mr Ferguson. I'm sorry. 28 A. It's very old fashioned, I know, but I just prefer 29 to - page? 30 31 Q. I'm obliged. Page 50. 32 A. I've got the page. 33 34 Q. Just read to yourself the first paragraph. 35 A. I've read that. 36 37 Q. Did that clause represent the standard template in the 38 EBAs as at 2005-2006? 39 A. That's correct. 40 41 Q. What role did you have in negotiating individual EBAs 42 in 2005 and 2006? 43 A. We had probably 50 officials negotiating enterprise 44 bargaining agreements. We had full-time staff that was 45 involved in certification and paperwork and overwhelmingly, 46 I didn't negotiate agreements. The process was undertaken. 47 The workforce were given a copy of the proposed agreement


1 for 21 days to look at to consider, to identify questions 2 that they wanted to raise with the Union representative, 3 and once that process was completed, I was given a copy of 4 the agreement, generally speaking, by the enterprise 5 bargaining officer who was based in the Union, who 6 coordinated the work of our field organisers, and then 7 I signed agreements appropriately. 8 9 Q. I'm not being critical of you, was it your task or 10 your practice in those years to read each EBA individually 11 or did you rely upon the advice of the EBA officer? 12 A. Definitely relied on the advice of the field 13 organisers and the EBA officer. 14 15 Q. In essence, did you expect of those persons a summary 16 of the EBA that you were asked to sign; is that right? 17 A. Could you repeat the question, please? 18 19 Q. Was it your practice in 2005 and 2006 to rely upon a 20 summary which those persons gave to you of the terms of the 21 particular EBA? 22 A. Overwhelmingly, with a particular focus on the core 23 business of the Union, which was the wages and working 24 conditions. 25 26 Q. Yes, but returning to my question, was it your 27 practice to rely upon the summary or did you read the EBA 28 front to back? 29 A. I definitely didn't read the EBA. I just didn't have 30 the resource or time to do that. 31 32 Q. While we have that letter in front of you, can I show 33 you a document, please. 34 A. I've got that letter. 35 36 Q. It comprises two pages. Whose handwriting appears on 37 the first page? 38 A. Part of it is my handwriting and I might identify that 39 for you if I could. 40 41 Q. Yes, please. 42 A. Where it says "Copy to C.O.M", that means Committee of 43 Management of the Union, Peter McClelland, who is the 44 President, "Please put this as an agenda item", meaning for 45 the Committee of Management of the Union. Down the bottom 46 it says "original" meaning this document to come back to 47 myself and then, on the top, there's handwriting which is


1 not mine. 2 3 Q. The handwriting being a time in the morning and a 4 date; is that right? 5 A. "7.30am. Tuesday March 8th 2005". 6 7 Q. Yes. If you go over to the next page, you also see 8 some handwriting. Could I just take you to that page, 9 please. 10 A. Will I read that, sorry? 11 12 Q. Yes, just read it to yourself, please. 13 A. Yes. I've read that. 14 15 Q. Can you tell the Commissioner whose handwriting that 16 is, please? 17 A. That is all of my handwriting. 18 19 Q. Can you read it out to the Commissioner please. 20 A. There's the word "original to M Knott", meaning our 21 Financial Controller. It says "See PTO", and I'm assuming 22 that is the letter of February 25th. Michael Knott was 23 Financial Controller and involved in the Building Trades 24 Group Drug and Alcohol/Safety Committee. "See PTO", the 25 "Committee of Management", "8/3/05", "This was endorsed. 26 Please follow up!!" 27 28 Q. And then -- 29 A. And then at the top copy to Warren Kelly, who was the 30 coordinator of enterprise bargaining for all our officials 31 and then in brackets it says "(both sides)", meaning see 32 the information I provided to Michael. The decision of the 33 "Committee of Management", "Please follow up!!" And then 34 there's a copy of the letter, I'm assuming, dated February 35 25th. 36 37 Q. If you go to the last of the entries on the bottom of 38 that second page, is that a note to Mr Knott? 39 A. There's a line going from "Original Michael Knott 40 See PTO", there's a line going down, "Committee of 41 Management, 8/3/05. This was endorsed. Please follow up." 42 This was not a note to Michael Kelly, it is a note to 43 Michael Knott. 44 45 Q. By that note what did you expect Mr Knott to do? 46 A. To convey the decision of the Union, in relation to 47 this issue, to the Drug and Alcohol and Safety Committee of


1 the BTG. 2 3 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to the Chronological 4 Bundle, in particular to page 393. 5 6 MR CONDON: Could I ask my learned friend to tender that 7 document? 8 9 THE WITNESS: So, page? 10 11 MR CONDON: Just one moment, Mr Ferguson. 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: Commissioner, in relation to this 14 document, it's come to the attention of myself, in a less 15 than regular fashion, in this way: Notices to Produce were 16 served on the CFMEU and the BTG and the BTG and A and it 17 didn't come to our attention through that means. It has 18 been provided to us this morning in this photocopy fashion 19 only. We have asked if the original could be produced to 20 us and we would request, respectfully, that that be done. 21 22 It was provided to us by my learned friend Mr Condon's 23 instructing solicitor, although it seems to have come from 24 the CFMEU originally. We would ask whoever is able to 25 provide the original, that they provide the original, and 26 I would like to withhold the tender until I see the 27 original. May it please. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: The alternative is to, as it were, 30 receive the tender, subject to what you've just said, and 31 involved in what you've just said would be rendering into 32 the status of an exhibit those Notices to Produce you 33 referred to in a general way. I think that would be my 34 preferred course but if you insist on the other course -- 35 36 MS McNAUGHTON: No, no, I'm content with that course. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: What I will do is what I just 39 indicated. The document on which Mr Ferguson has been 40 asked some questions is Drug and Alcohol Case Study MFI-19. 41 It is received subject to the observations of Senior 42 Counsel for the Commission which I think speak for 43 themselves. 44 45 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-19 - LETTER DATED 46 25/02/2005 FROM TREVOR SHARP TO THE BUILDING TRADES GROUP 47 OF UNIONS DRUG AND ALCOHOL COMMITTEE WITH HANDWRITTEN NOTES


1 AND ONE-PAGE ATTACHMENT 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Condon. 4 5 MR CONDON: Thank you, Commissioner. 6 7 Q. Mr Ferguson, did you ask Mr Knott to keep the contents 8 of this document secret? 9 A. Definitely not. 10 11 Q. What about Mr Kelly? 12 A. Definitely not. He coordinated our enterprise 13 bargaining work. 14 15 Q. Yes. Would you go to page 393 of the Chronological 16 Bundle. 17 A. 393. 393, yes. That is headed "Occupational Health"? 18 19 Q. I'm sorry, it is my fault. It is in CFMEU 20 Miscellaneous, tab 00. I apologise, Mr Ferguson. It 21 should be the Committee of Management meeting. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Condon -- 24 25 THE WITNESS: I think I've got the right folder. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: -- what is the exhibit number? 28 29 MR CONDON: I'm obliged to the court officer. 30 31 THE WITNESS: Page? 32 33 MR CONDON: Page 393, Mr Ferguson. It is on the screen if 34 you want to take the newfangled way. 35 A. No, just for consistency. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: I haven't got it, but I'll follow it on 38 the screen. 39 40 WITNESS: Page 393? 41 42 MR CONDON: Q. They should be minutes of Committee of 43 Management meeting held on 8 March at 8am? 44 A. That's correct. 45 46 Q. You will see there is a list of persons in attendance 47 and take it from me Mr, Ferguson it was 26?


1 A. I'll assume that. 2 3 Q. You can see on page 393 the heading "Incoming 4 correspondence"? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. You will see underneath that that the letter of 8 Mr Sharp is recorded as "incoming correspondence"? 9 A. That's correct. 10 11 Q. Was it the practice of the Committee of Management at 12 the time you were on it to record incoming correspondence? 13 A. Only if it was an item of substance to the work of the 14 Union, the membership. 15 16 Q. Was it a practice to have a folder of such letters 17 circulating before the Committee of Management meeting? 18 A. No, not before the meeting. At the meeting. 19 20 Q. At the meeting. Could I ask you, please, to go to 21 page 397. 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. You will see about halfway down the page, Mr Ferguson, 25 there's an entry "Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol 26 and Safety Programs". Do you see that? 27 A. Programs, yes. 28 29 Q. Programs, yes. Just read that to yourself and let me 30 know when you have finished doing that. 31 A. I've read that. 32 33 Q. Was it your practice to correct the minutes of a 34 meeting, or an earlier meeting, if they were incorrect? 35 A. Was it a practice of? 36 37 Q. Of yours. 38 A. I didn't regard it as my job. When minutes were 39 circulated it was everyone's responsibility, if they 40 identified an error, to bring it to the attention of the 41 meeting. 42 43 Q. Do you have any recollection as to the accuracy or 44 otherwise of the entry in front of you? 45 A. Definitely not. 46 47 Q. If it was incorrect, in the normal course it would


1 have been corrected in the following minutes; is that 2 right? 3 A. Definitely. This was subject to discussion. 4 5 Q. Did you ask to keep the contents of a 25 February 6 letter secret; that is, you asked the 26 persons present to 7 keep that document secret? 8 A. Definitely not. 9 10 Q. Had you made such a request, would it have been in 11 vain? 12 A. Definitely. 13 14 Q. Yes. The Committee leaks stuff, does it, from time to 15 time? 16 A. I wouldn't use the word "leaks". People are elected 17 to represent constituency. They report back. This issue 18 was discussed, it was topical in the Union, and it had a 19 lot of attention on it. 20 21 Q. Do you recall attending - again I'm asking you to 22 focus on the period 2005-2006 - meetings of employees where 23 you discussed what I might call the standard $2 clause? 24 A. In 2005-6? 25 26 Q. Yes, or perhaps earlier. 27 A. Could you repeat the question, sorry? I want to be 28 clear. 29 30 Q. Yes. I was asking about the $2 clause which I showed 31 you a few minutes ago. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. From time to time did you address members or meetings 35 of employees about the terms of the EBAs? 36 A. On occasions amongst many other duties, that's 37 correct. 38 39 Q. Do you recall discussing with them, on occasions, at 40 those sorts of meetings, the $2 clause? 41 A. That's correct. 42 43 Q. Do you recall saying anything to them on occasions 44 about what happened to the money? 45 A. That's correct. 46 47 Q. I know I am asking about certain meetings. Are you


1 able to tell the Commissioner in summary what you told the 2 meetings, if you had a practice, about where those funds 3 went to? 4 A. I've got a recollection of explaining the clause to 5 members and I think inevitably non-members in attendance. 6 7 Q. Why do you say that, Mr Ferguson? 8 A. Because I didn't want to portray that there was only 9 Union members at this meeting. There were members and 10 non-members inevitably. 11 12 Q. I interrupted you. Can you keep going, please. 13 A. Whereby the clause was raised. Generally it wasn't 14 raised. Everyone was focused on their wages and the 15 working conditions, but where the issue was raised I have a 16 recollection of responding that the money was to be used to 17 fund a drug and alcohol service for the industry and for 18 the Union to be resourced to have a better and safer 19 industry. 20 21 Q. At that time, did the BTG, as an organisation, employ 22 persons who conducted what might be called or have safety 23 functions? 24 A. They had no infrastructure, no resources, no 25 officials. 26 27 Q. Yes. I was asking you about meetings of employees to 28 which you spoke. Do you recall speaking to an employer or 29 employers about that clause? 30 A. I specifically remember an owner of a gyprock company 31 who had a Chinese background, his English wasn't fantastic, 32 he was Mandarin speaking, asked for an explanation what 33 that clause meant. The company was "Built-Up" or 34 "Interior" or "Build-Up", or something, and they had a 35 workforce of Chinese speaking workers and he was conveying 36 to the workforce the agreement, him raising the issue with 37 me, and me explaining it's to resource the Union, and also 38 I explained about the drug and alcohol services that the 39 Union was associated with. 40 41 Q. Yes. Can you recall approximately when that exchange 42 took place? 43 A. I'd struggle to do that. If I had to, certainly not 44 in the last eight years, ,I'd be going back a number of 45 years before I left the Union. 46 47 Q. I want to change the subject if I can and take you to


1 MFI-17, please. You will see there's some handwriting at 2 the top of that document. 3 A. That's correct. 4 5 Q. That is your handwriting, as I understand the 6 evidence? 7 A. That's correct. 8 9 Q. Who is Mr Miranda? 10 A. Ray Miranda was a Senior Manager of Thiess. 11 12 Q. Did you have a conversation with him about the 13 contents of the document which appears as MFI-17? 14 A. Is this the document I've got in my hand? 15 16 Q. Yes, it is, Mr Ferguson. 17 A. It's not marked 17, that is why I want to be clear. 18 19 Q. Yes, it is. 20 A. Could you repeat the question? 21 22 Q. I was asking you about your conversation with 23 Mr Miranda. When did that conversation take place, please? 24 A. I don't know the date. It's around the time of being 25 requested to provide a report to the Union on issues that 26 Mr Knott had raised. 27 28 Q. How many conversations did you have with this 29 gentleman as at, say, late 2011, the date of this email? 30 A. Just the one. 31 32 Q. Can you tell the Commissioner what was said in that 33 conversation? 34 A. I raised with Mr Miranda the issue of the $100,000 35 payment to the Union. 36 37 Q. Why did you do that? 38 A. Because I was seeking to ascertain facts in relation 39 to the matter, some information that I hadn't done 40 previously, so I rang Mr Miranda. I arranged to meet him 41 in the city, I didn't outline the issue to him, I wanted to 42 make sure that he would be available to talk to me because 43 I wanted to get to the bottom of it. It was not a long 44 conversation on this issue, it was very brief, and I raised 45 with him very clearly, when I met him, did he have 46 knowledge about the $100,000 payment. He didn't have a lot 47 of knowledge, except to say that it was a disgruntled


1 employee or ex-employee and that the matter had been 2 investigated and there was no issue for the Union. That is 3 fundamentally it. He didn't have much more knowledge than 4 that, and then I had a conversation about the previous work 5 I'd done with Mr Miranda in the industry and so on. 6 7 Q. When you were still at Thiess, how senior was 8 Mr Miranda? 9 A. He was a senior manager. I don't know what his title 10 was. I think he had responsibility for safety and 11 workplace relations, that was my understanding. 12 13 Q. And did you accept what he said? 14 A. Definitely. I regarded him as a straight shooter and 15 an honest person. 16 17 Q. Did you report back that conversation to anyone else? 18 A. I don't remember doing that. I know I recorded it in 19 an email to Kylie Price that I'd followed through and spoke 20 to management. I didn't raise the name of the individual 21 for a reason, and I think, but I'm not sure, I would have 22 explained that more to officials if I was requested, but 23 I just don't have the recollection beyond that. 24 25 Q. My learned friend Counsel Assisting asked you some 26 questions about industrial peace on the Chatswood to Epping 27 Rail Project. What was your understanding, again in about 28 2005 and 2006, about the nature of industrial relations on 29 that site? 30 A. My recollection of a job where there wasn't any 31 industrial disputation. I know there was an issue where a 32 worker died in 2005 but I don't regard that as industrial 33 disputation. I regard it as a job that was well run by 34 Thiess management in terms of industrial relations. 35 36 Q. Of course, if there had been industrial unrest, or the 37 threat of industrial unrest, Mr Dixon would have known 38 about that, wouldn't he? 39 A. He would have known about it and would have conveyed 40 it to me. 41 42 Q. Yes. Can the Commission excuse me for one moment? 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly. 45 46 MR CONDON: Q. Do you know of a man called Mr Chatburn? 47 A. I've known Mr Chatburn in my working career in the


1 industry, yes. 2 3 Q. You understood in 2005 and 2006, he had a role on the 4 Chatswood to Epping rail line, didn't you? 5 A. That's correct. 6 7 Q. And you would have expected him to know about any 8 industrial problems; is that right? 9 A. Without any doubt. 10 11 Q. I want to show you a document, please. It is an 12 enterprise bargaining agreement. Do you see it's an EBA, 13 Mr Ferguson? 14 A. That's correct. 15 16 Q. For the Thiess project; is that right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 19 Q. Would you go to page 37. You will see your signature; 20 is that right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 23 Q. I'm sorry, I was interrupted, I apologise. Was that 24 your signature, Mr Ferguson? 25 A. I said yes. 26 27 Q. I'm obliged to my friend. Can you just tell the 28 Commissioner, do you have an understanding in 2005 and 2006 29 as to how long EBAs might take to negotiate? Was it a 30 matter of days, weeks or months? 31 A. Some agreements might take hours. Some might take 32 days and some might take weeks. There's different degrees 33 of complexity and divergence of opinion between parties, so 34 it would depend on the nature of the agreement and the 35 willingness of the respective parties to reach an agreement 36 on the terms that different parties wanted. 37 38 Q. Do you have any recollection about what I might call 39 the gestation period of the Thiess EBA which is now in 40 front of you? 41 A. Not outside of the evidence I heard here that there 42 was high expectation of the workforce, but outside of that 43 evidence here, I've got no recollection of any detail on 44 this issue. 45 46 Q. Could I ask my learned friend if it would be 47 convenient to tender that document.


1 2 MS McNAUGHTON: It is in the materials already. It is in 3 MFI-6 at page 91 and following. 4 5 MR CONDON: In that case I withdraw the tender. I'm most 6 obliged. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: I was going to let it in. What's 9 another 30 pages between friends. It is, as it were, in 10 Mr Ferguson's group of documents. I think it might be 11 simpler to let it in. 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: It is in the materials already, that is 14 all, 91. 15 16 MR CONDON: It may be convenient, Commissioner. We're all 17 friends. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Condon is always wise. It will be 20 Drugs and Alcohol Case Study MFI-20. 21 22 DRUGS AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-20 - THIESS EBA - ALSO 23 LOCATED AT PAGE 91 OF MFI-6 24 25 MR CONDON: Q. I just want to show you a few additional 26 documents, Mr Ferguson, on this topic. I want to show you 27 a Draft Constitution of the Building Trades Group of Unions 28 of New South Wales. Can I ask you, please, to go to the 29 last page of that document. 30 A. I've got that. 31 32 Q. You will see a document which is marked, or has the 33 stamp in the top right-hand corner, marked "Draft"? 34 A. I've got that. 35 36 Q. You will see the first paragraph under the heading 37 speaks of a "Building Trades Group of Unions Drug & Alcohol 38 & Safety Sub-Committee", allegedly being a subcommittee of 39 the Building Trades Group of Unions? 40 A. That's correct. 41 42 Q. Whose handwriting appears at the bottom of that 43 document? 44 A. Most of it is mine, so I'm going to have to identify 45 which is mine and which is mine. 46 47 Q. Could I ask you to do that, please, Mr Ferguson?


1 A. The handwriting that says "copy to Tony Papa". It 2 says "copy" and there's an arrow to "Tony Papa": 3 4 Please put this on the agenda for first BTG 5 meeting in 2004. Propose T Sharp ... 6 7 Meaning Trevor Sharp, "be" - I think the word is "patron" 8 rather than "patrol", "patron, CFMEU delegates Brian 9 Parker", and I think "Pat Carr and ?" - a question mark. 10 Then it's got "Original to me", and then there's that 11 handwriting where I say: 12 13 Copy to Tony. Making sure he's got on the 14 agenda for a future BTG meeting in 2004. 15 16 The additional handwriting is my Executive Assistant or 17 Personal Assistant at the time taking initiative, I think, 18 and putting a copy to Michael Knott, a copy to Tony Papa 19 and a copy to myself. That handwriting where it says "See 20 Michael Knott, see Tony Papa, see Andrew" is not my 21 writing. 22 23 Q. Do you see there is a section near the top of that 24 page called "Objectives"? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. There are two numbered paragraphs? 28 A. That's correct. 29 30 Q. Bear in mind, if one goes to the front of this 31 document, the date 2003 appears both in handwriting at the 32 very top -- 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. -- and also against the heading "Draft 5". Do you see 36 that? 37 A. That's correct. 38 39 Q. Is it your recollection that the document I have just 40 shown you with your handwriting on came into existence in 41 about late 2003? 42 A. I think work had been ongoing on this issue, but 43 I think that's correct. It's probably late 2003. 44 45 Q. Was it your understanding as at late 2003 that the 46 particular Subcommittee, which is the subject matter of 47 this single page document, had, as a function, the


1 provision of occupational health and safety services and 2 activities in your industry? 3 A. In the building and construction industry, and the 4 answer is definitely yes. 5 6 Q. For how long did you have that understanding, please, 7 Mr Ferguson? 8 A. Understanding? 9 10 Q. That one of the functions of this particular Committee 11 was for the assistance or assisting in the provision of 12 occupational health and safety services? 13 A. In the year 2003 -- 14 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. -- and ongoing, definitely. 17 18 Q. You will see the Subcommittee has in its description 19 here the word "safety"? 20 A. That's correct. 21 22 Q. Can you tell the Commissioner, please, what your 23 understanding was about the name of the Subcommittee as at 24 2003? 25 A. The decision of the Building Trades Group of Unions 26 confirmed that the name of the Subcommittee, because it is 27 a Subcommittee of the parent body, was The Building Trades 28 Group of Unions Drug and Alcohol and Safety Committee. 29 30 Q. Did you and Mr Sharp have a discussion about the name 31 of this Subcommittee? 32 A. A copy of this document was circulated to Mr Sharp. 33 34 Q. Did you speak to him about it? 35 A. And he subsequently met with me. I don't know who 36 instigated the meeting but I assume Mr Sharp. We discussed 37 the decision and the implementation of it and amongst other 38 matters, I asked him to address the letterhead of the 39 Committee, to make sure it was reflective of the decision 40 of the parent body. 41 42 Q. What did Mr Sharp say in response to that request? 43 A. That he would do that and then, to my surprise, he 44 advised me that the Subcommittee had somehow been 45 registered with the Office of Fair Trading and that he 46 would progress the issue through there and to address the 47 issue of the letterhead, and I had a subsequent discussion


1 where he explained on another occasion that he was doing 2 that. 3 4 Q. Of course, you have been shown in the course of 5 learned Counsel's Assisting examination of you various 6 examples of the Committee's letterhead which refers only to 7 "The Building Trades Group of Unions Drug and Alcohol 8 Committee"? 9 A. That is my understanding. 10 11 Q. And the word "Safety" does not appear on that 12 letterhead. Did you have a view at the time as to why 13 those words were not present on the letterhead? 14 A. Either inefficiency or a reluctance to carry out the 15 decision of the BTG. I'm not too sure. I put it down to 16 inefficiency, I think. 17 18 Q. Could I ask you to be shown, please, page 140 of the 19 Chronological Bundle. I might just provide a copy to 20 Mr Ferguson. I will show my learned friend first. Thank 21 you. 22 A. I've got that letterhead. 23 24 Q. That's a letter of October 2007. Is the letterhead 25 out of date as far as you're concerned as at October 2007, 26 having regard to Ms Carr's position? 27 A. That is the case. 28 29 Q. Why? 30 A. I understood Ms Carr was no longer involved in the 31 Committee and wasn't acting as the convenor of the group. 32 33 Q. Before I move on, could I ask for the fifth draft of a 34 Constitution to be tendered. 35 36 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, certainly. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: That will be Drug and Alcohol Case 39 Study MFI-21. 40 41 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-21 - DRAFT 5 (5/12/03) 42 CONSTITUTION - BUILDING TRADES GROUP OF UNIONS OF NSW 43 44 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that Mr Sharp was Project 45 Coordinator at that point in time either. 46 47 MR CONDON: Thank you. Could I have that back now.


1 2 Q. Could Mr Ferguson be shown transcript page 582, 3 line 24, please? 4 A. Page 582? 5 6 Q. Yes. There you mention Mr Whitehead and a Mr Rech 7 R-E-C-H? 8 A. That's correct. 9 10 Q. Were they full-time Safety Officers? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. What was their function? 14 A. Exclusively workplace safety. 15 16 Q. In the course of this part of the evidence, you gave 17 some evidence about a Safety Rectification Notice as a 18 document which the Union prepared; is that right? 19 A. No. It was a document produced by The Building Trades 20 Group of Unions. 21 22 Q. I apologise. Can I show you an example of that. 23 A. I've got that document. 24 25 Q. Is that an example of a document of which you spoke? 26 A. That's correct. 27 28 MR CONDON: Could I ask that that be tendered, if it 29 please the Commission. 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: Drug and Alcohol Case Study MFI-22. 34 35 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-22 - COPY OF SAFETY 36 RECTIFICATION NOTICE NUMBER 02861 DATED 23/5/2003 37 38 MR CONDON: Q. The last thing, Mr Ferguson, I want to 39 ask you some short questions about the Committee to Defend 40 Trade Union Rights Trust. You were asked some questions 41 about a payment that the MUA made I think in about 2006 of 42 $330,000. 43 A. I don't remember the year, but I'm assuming we're 44 referring to the same thing. 45 46 Q. Yes. 47 A. I remember the contribution of $330,000.


1 2 Q. Yes. What was your understanding of the reason for 3 that payment by the MUA? 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: By or to? Did you say "by the MUA"? 6 7 MR CONDON: By the MUA to the CFMEU. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Right. 10 11 MR CONDON: I apologise. It is the second of the two 12 payments. 13 14 THE WITNESS: That at that particular time, the CFMEU was 15 fighting for survival. From the point of view of the 16 Union, they were very much under attack from the Federal 17 Government. There were new laws introduced that only 18 applied to building workers and the building industry. It 19 eroded the civil liberties of many of the workers in the 20 industry, Union and non-Union, and the MUA and the CFMEU 21 have been lifelong friends and have always been 22 extraordinarily generous and supported each other in times 23 of crisis or attack. 24 25 Q. Was it your understanding at the time, that is, at the 26 time of this payment, that it was a time of crisis for the 27 CFMEU? 28 A. Definitely. 29 30 Q. Was it your understanding at the time that the ABCC, 31 or its jurisdiction, did not extend to the MUA? 32 A. To the best of my recollection. 33 34 Q. Your concern at the time; that is, at the time the 35 CFMEU received the payment, was the incurring of legal 36 costs and other costs as a result of ABCC activities; is 37 that right? 38 A. That's correct. Legal costs were crippling the Union. 39 40 Q. Yes. Of course, you were asked about an earlier 41 payment, that is a payment made by the Trust to the MUA 42 about a year before? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. And you were a director of the trustee company at the 46 time of that payment? 47 A. That's correct.


1 2 Q. At the time that payment was made, was there anything 3 on the horizon, as it were, which indicated to you that a 4 payment to the MUA by the CFMEU would later be made? 5 A. Definitely not. 6 7 Q. Can I just repeat that last question, and hope to get 8 it right. At the time the payment was made, was anything 9 on the horizon, as it were, which indicated to you that 10 payment by the CFMEU to the MUA would later be made? 11 A. Definitely not. 12 13 Q. I am obliged to my instructing solicitor. Could you 14 go to page 336 of the Chronological Bundle? 15 A. 336? 16 17 Q. Indeed. Again, I can provide you with a copy if it 18 assists, Mr Ferguson. 19 A. I've got that. 20 21 Q. Can you tell the Commissioner what that form is, 22 please? 23 A. I'll have to read it first just to - that was a 24 document in the Union enterprise bargaining kit, if I could 25 use that expression, in addition to the actual proposed 26 agreement. There was additional paperwork and that was one 27 of the items that brought to the attention of the employer 28 the clause, their obligation, and the process to make 29 payment. 30 31 Q. The kit, to which you refer, I think it's referred to 32 at page 326. I would ask the court monitors to bring that 33 page up. 34 A. 326. I've got that. 35 36 Q. That should be headed "CFMEU EBA Processing Kit", 37 correct? 38 A. That's correct. 39 40 Q. Is that the kit to which you refer? 41 A. The kit is more than this document. It's the draft 42 agreement and this is an additional part of the kit, 43 I think. 44 45 Q. In all events, the form at page 336, which I showed 46 you a few moments ago, was part of a kit which was intended 47 to be provided to each employer; is that right?


1 A. That is definitely correct. 2 3 MR CONDON: Thank you, Commissioner. That is the 4 examination. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Botsman? 7 8 MR BOTSMAN: Nothing arising, Commissioner. May I be 9 excused? 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly. Ms McNaughton? 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: Just briefly a few more questions. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: You can leave Mr Botsman, if you like. 16 Thank you. 17 18 MR BOTSMAN: I better wait to see what arises out of that. 19 20 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Ferguson, just in relation to the 23 change of names that you said was discussed at the BTG of 24 the BTG D and A Committee to add the word "Safety"? 25 A. Sorry? 26 27 Q. The change of name? 28 A. I'm aware of the change of name, yes. 29 30 Q. When was that? 31 A. When was? 32 33 Q. The discussion? 34 A. With the BTG or with Mr Sharp or -- 35 36 Q. BTG? 37 A. There had been an ongoing discussion for a period of 38 time. To the best of my recollection, throughout 2003, I'm 39 not saying January 2003 but in that period leading up to 40 the Draft 5, believe it or not, there was a process of 41 discussion taking place. 42 43 Q. When do you say that you were told by Mr Sharp that he 44 had already put in the application to the Fair Trading 45 Department? 46 A. Sorry? 47


1 Q. When do you say that Mr Sharp said that he had put in 2 an application to the Fair Trading Department? 3 A. I don't know if he said he'd put an application in. 4 To my recollection, he said that he was processing it. He 5 told me that the Committee was registered with 6 Fair Trading. I was unaware of it. I don't know the date 7 of that. 8 9 Q. Could you give an indication? Is it closer to 2000, 10 closer to 2010, somewhere in the middle of the decade? 11 A. It's not the year 2000. It's not the year 2010. I'd 12 put it somewhere in between. I don't know the date. 13 14 Q. So somewhere in the middle of the decade? 15 A. I'm not going to try and - I think it's after the 16 decision of the group or during the process of the 17 formulation of the change. 18 19 Q. When was that? 20 A. When was -- 21 22 Q. When was the formulation of the change? 23 A. As I said, to the best of my recollection, through 24 2003. 25 26 Q. Who was at that meeting where the change was 27 discussed? 28 A. Which meeting are you referring to? 29 30 Q. The meeting where the change of the name of the 31 Committee was discussed? 32 A. There was a number of meetings where the change was 33 discussed, so we're talking about the Building Trades Group 34 of Unions meeting? 35 36 Q. Yes. You weren't on the other Committee, so it must 37 be that. 38 A. I'm involved in the Union where there's discussions 39 about these issues occurring at the same time as - because 40 we're an affiliate of the Building Trades Group of Unions, 41 so there's lots of discussions we're referring to. 42 43 Q. I am talking about the BTG; when was it discussed on 44 the BTG? 45 A. As I said, during 2003. 46 47 Q. Who was there at the BTG?


1 A. There were different officials on different occasions 2 at the meetings. There was never continuity of 3 representation. People that I recollect being present at 4 meetings were Mr Papa, Mr Doust on occasions from the 5 Electrical Union, Mr McCarney from the Plumbers Union, 6 Mr Cummings from the metalworkers on occasions, and on 7 other occasions Mr Tim - I think the current Secretary of 8 the Union. 9 10 Q. Was a resolution passed, to your recollection, to 11 change the name to add the word "Safety"? 12 A. Not to add to the word "Safety", to actually 13 reconstitute the Subcommittee to clearly identify its goals 14 and also to have the name more expansive to describe the 15 work of the Committee. 16 17 Q. Was a resolution passed to that effect? 18 A. That is my understanding. 19 20 Q. Who was at the meeting when that resolution was 21 passed, do you recall? 22 A. I don't have that recollection. 23 24 Q. You think that was in 2003? 25 A. That's correct. 26 27 Q. Can I show you these documents, please. Do you see 28 here there are three sets of documents? 29 A. That's correct. 30 31 Q. The one on the top or the single sheet is an 32 "Application For Reservation Or Extension of Reservation of 33 Name". Do you see that? It is from Trevor Sharp of an 34 address which I would invite the Commissioner to have a 35 non-publication order applied to it. It says: 36 37 (i) The Building Trades Group Drug and 38 Alcohol Committee. 39 40 That is the proposed association name. 41 42 (ii) The Building Trades Group D&A 43 Committee. 44 45 (iii) The Building Trades Group Drug & 46 Alcohol Program. 47


1 That document is signed apparently by him on 12 May 2010 2 and received apparently by the department on 14 May 2010. 3 Do you see that? 4 A. That's correct. 5 6 Q. Can I ask you to go over to the next document -- 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: I just direct that the residential 9 address of Mr Sharp on that document not be published. 10 11 MS McNAUGHTON: May it please you, Commissioner. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: I make the same direction in relation 14 to the next document. 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 17 18 Q. The next document, do you see, is entitled 19 "Application for Incorporation of Association"? 20 A. That's correct. 21 22 Q. Do you see there it is, again, applying to incorporate 23 the Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee? 24 A. That's correct. 25 26 Q. That appears to be dated the same day, 14 May 2010? 27 A. I've got a date it was received on 14 May. The date 28 of the other application was 12 May. 29 30 Q. Yes. You can see it was apparently processed and 31 received on 14 May 2010? 32 A. I don't know about - I can see "Received" sorry. 33 34 Q. There's a "Processed" stamped too on the top left-hand 35 corner? 36 A. Processed on the 14th and received, that's correct. 37 38 Q. And then there's another form that I have handed you, 39 do you see, that's called an "Application to change objects 40 or constitution" and that is in the name of the Building 41 Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee and that was 42 received on 7 September 2011. Do you see that? 43 A. That's correct. 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: I direct that Mr Papa's residential 46 address, or what it appears to be, not be published. 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Those can be received into evidence, 2 please. 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Drug and Alcohol Case Study MFI-23. 5 6 DRUG AND ALCOHOL CASE STUDY MFI-23 - DOCUMENTS TITLED 7 APPLICATION FOR RESERVATION OR EXTENSION OF RESERVATION OF 8 NAME, APPLICATION FOR INCORPORATION OF ASSOCIATION AND 9 APPLICATION TO CHANGE OBJECTS OR CONSTITUTION 10 11 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Those documents, sir, appear to 12 indicate, at least so far as Fair Trading is concerned, 13 that communication with them was in 2010 and following? 14 A. Sorry? 15 16 Q. Those documents indicate that the communication with 17 Fair Trading in relation to the Building Trades Group Drug 18 and Alcohol Committee was in 2010? 19 A. I don't know if there was any earlier communication; 20 I've got no knowledge. 21 22 Q. Do you see on the single page document, under 23 "Extension of current reservation of name", about a third 24 of the way down the page, the words have been written in in 25 handwriting, "THIS IS THE FIRST APPLICATION FOR A NAME". 26 A. I don't see that but -- 27 28 Q. It is about a third of the way down that single-page 29 document, the application for reservation. 30 A. Under the heading "Extension" or the next -- 31 32 Q. Yes, "Extension. 33 A. 34 If this application is to extend a current 35 reservation, please provide: 36 37 THIS IS THE FIRST APPLICATION FOR A NAME. 38 39 Q. Does that refresh your recollection any further in 40 terms of dates? 41 A. I've got no knowledge of any of this paperwork. 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. They are my questions. 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: There is no opposition to Mr Ferguson 46 being excused from further attendance, I take it? 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: No, I think not. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Ferguson, you're excused from 4 further attendance on the summons that brought you here. 5 Thank you for giving up all this time both in the box and 6 in preparation and I extend my regrets that your testimony 7 has to some extent been disrupted by other business before 8 the Commission. You can leave the witness box. 9 A. Thank you for your assistance and yourself, 10 Ms McNaughton. 11 12 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 13 14 MS McNAUGHTON: The next witness is Tony Papa. 15 16 MR BOTSMAN: Commissioner, may I be excused? 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly, and thank you for your 19 assistance. 20 21 <TONY PAPACONSTUNTINOS, sworn: [3.24pm] 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Incidentally, Mr Papa, I use that 24 name as your surname because everyone else seems to. 25 I appreciate you have a longer name. 26 A. "Papa" is a lot easier. 27 28 Q. You prefer that usage? 29 A. I respond to it. 30 31 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could you please give the Commission 34 your full name? 35 A. My name is Anthony Papaconstuntinos. 36 37 Q. What is your occupation? 38 A. My occupation at present is that I'm the Executive 39 Officer of the Drug & Alcohol Foundation, the construction 40 industry. 41 42 Q. How long have you been in that occupation? 43 A. Since the end of May 2011. 44 45 Q. Can I ask you to go back to your career history 46 starting from leaving school, career and education history, 47 if there is any?

.17/08/2015 BTG D&A 734 A PAPA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI UNCORRECTED PROOF

1 A. I left school, high school, I didn't finish the 2 School Certificate, school actually bored me, quite 3 frankly. I went to work in a service station as a young 4 fellow, I was about 15 and a bit. I went to sea in late 5 1965 or mid-1966 as a seafarer. I worked my way through 6 the various ranks on merchant shipping and later I became 7 an official of the then Seamen's Union of Australia in an 8 acting capacity. I was elected to the Victorian Branch 9 Secretary's position in the early '80s, I think, I'm not 10 quite sure, I can't remember, but after that I was 11 appointed the Assistant National Secretary and then 12 finished up as the National Secretary, the last of the 13 National Secretaries, of the then Seamen's Union prior to 14 amalgamating with the Wharfies, The Waterside Workers' 15 Federation, and that was in 1993, off memory. I was the 16 Joint National Secretary of the Maritime Union and then 17 later after an election to determine who was going to be 18 the Secretary or the Deputy, I became the Deputy National 19 Secretary up until 1998 when I left the Union, I think it 20 was about June/July 1998, and I was unemployed for a little 21 while and then joined the CFMEU in October 1998. 22 23 Q. Why did you join the CFMEU? 24 A. I've always been trade union minded and I had a 25 history of representing workers and I wanted to continue 26 that history and one of the unions that I was fairly 27 impressed with, you know, in terms of their representation 28 of workers, was the CFMEU, so I actually applied to train 29 their organisers, but Mr Ferguson indicated to me that he 30 wasn't in need of an organiser - of a trainer, he was more 31 in need of an organiser and I was to work with the CFMEU 32 for a period of six months and review it and I was there 33 all those years. 34 35 Q. That was from October 1998? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. Until now? 39 A. Not now. I'm a member of the Union, I've always been 40 a member of a trade union, but I'm no longer an official. 41 42 Q. When did you cease being an official? 43 A. I think it was - off memory, I think it was about 2011 44 or 2012. 45 46 Q. Did your role with the Foundation start when you 47 ceased being an official of the Union or was there overlap?


1 A. Yes, there was overlap, yes. I was seconded into the 2 position I currently hold initially to assist with the 3 organisation because it was in a fairly parlous state, if 4 you like, because -- 5 6 Q. When were you seconded - sorry, I didn't mean to 7 interrupt. 8 A. In May of 2011. 9 10 Q. You said it was in a fairly parlous state because? 11 A. It was in a parlous state because my predecessor had, 12 unfortunately, lapsed with his addiction and consequently 13 things went pear-shaped after that when he was in a state 14 of lapsing. 15 16 Q. Can I also ask you to indicate to the Commission when 17 you became involved with the BTG or the Building Trades 18 Group? 19 A. I was initially - I joined the Union in 1998, as 20 I said earlier, and the then Secretary of the organisation 21 was Graham Childs, Mr Graham Childs, who unfortunately 22 suffered an aneurysm, I think it was in 2002, and he wasn't 23 able to continue his function as a full-time official 24 because that affected him mentally, so I was asked if 25 I would take over his role, because Graham and I were 26 fairly close, we worked together in the city office and 27 I wasn't that familiar with the BTG, what have you, but 28 I accepted the responsibility more on the sake of what 29 occurred to my mate. I wanted to help. 30 31 Q. That was in 2002, you think? 32 A. I think so, yes. 33 34 Q. He was CFMEU, you've just indicated, and you were 35 CFMEU. Was the BTG, to your understanding, a CFMEU run 36 organisation? Why did it fall to you particularly to take 37 over from him rather than some other Union person? 38 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know why I was asked. 39 Maybe because I've had some experience as an official, as 40 I said, of the Maritime and also the Seamen's Union, so 41 maybe that was the case. 42 43 Q. Do we take it then that prior to 2002, prior to 44 Mr Childs' illness you were not involved with the BTG? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. You became involved as Secretary at that time?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Can you explain to the Commission how it was set up 4 and how it was constituted when you first became involved? 5 A. Well, my understanding at the time was it was 6 initially constituted as part of the Labour Council rules 7 and then I understood that there was some change to the 8 rules which omitted the BTG, which represented the building 9 and construction industry, and the Metal Trades Group, they 10 were omitted from the rules, whether they were no longer 11 required or whatever, I don't know, but they continued, 12 basically, in terms of representing workers in their 13 respective areas of industry, but because of the rule 14 change they didn't have any particular standing, if you 15 like. 16 17 Q. Prior to you becoming Secretary are you aware whether 18 or not there was an existing bank account for the Building 19 Trades Group? 20 A. Prior to? 21 22 Q. You becoming Secretary? 23 A. Of the BTG? 24 25 Q. Yes. 26 A. I didn't know anything about the BTG. 27 28 Q. When you became Secretary were you told or made aware 29 that this is the account for the BTG, or did you have to 30 start an account from scratch? 31 A. Look, I honestly can't recall whether I had to start 32 an account, but I presume there would have been an account. 33 34 Q. Could I show you or have the witness please shown 35 Bank Account Volume 2 of 2 which is MFI-3. 36 A. Thank you. 37 38 Q. Could you please turn to the first page of that volume 39 which is page 457. 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Do you see there an Authority for Unincorporated 43 Clubs, Lodges and Society Accounts? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you see your name on that? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. You see other people's names on it? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 5 Q. Do you recall now, after looking at that, whether or 6 not you needed to set up that as a first account for the 7 Building Trades Group or whether there was some other 8 account, or what the story was? 9 A. I'm quite sure, to tell you the truth. I do see my 10 name there along with the names of other people who were 11 part of the BTG, but I wasn't aware whether this was a 12 replacement account or an additional account; I'm not quite 13 sure. 14 15 Q. It is set up under "Method of Operation with 16 Andrew Ferguson with either M Doust or B Beer, or yourself 17 with either M Doust or B Beer. Why if you can recall was 18 that set up in that fashion? 19 A. Well, my understanding of any account is that there 20 needs to be at least two signatories to the account. If 21 there were four people nominated, you know, it's normal 22 practice you get two people from those people nominated to 23 sign. 24 25 Q. It doesn't, though, say that you and Mr Ferguson can 26 sign together, does it? 27 A. No, it doesn't say that, no. 28 29 Q. Do you know why that was decided upon in that way? 30 A. No, I don't. It's not my handwriting so I don't know. 31 32 Q. Anything to do with the Union affiliation of those 33 people? 34 A. Well, the Union affiliation - Mick Doust was involved 35 with the ETU, Brian Beer from the metal trades, and Andrew 36 and I from the CFMEU, so I'd imagine, you know, there's a 37 clear distinction between the three organisations. 38 39 Q. Does that refresh your memory at all as to a decision 40 as to how that signing was to occur? 41 A. No, I'm sorry. 42 43 Q. How long were you Secretary of this group? 44 A. I beg your pardon? 45 46 Q. How long were you Secretary of the Building Trades 47 Group?


1 A. I can't remember. Quite a number of years but I don't 2 even know when I got off it, to tell you the truth. 3 4 Q. How often did it meet? 5 A. Look, it was - it wasn't regular, it wasn't scheduled 6 meetings, like most other things that occur in the trade 7 union movement. It was periodical that we met and there 8 was occasion where not everyone attended which meant that 9 we didn't have sufficient numbers to convene a meeting, but 10 it was sporadic. 11 12 Q. Was there a BTG meeting as opposed to a BTG Executive 13 meeting or were they one and the same in your mind? 14 A. The same. 15 16 Q. The same? 17 A. It didn't meet that regularly, so whenever they met it 18 was who was available to come and meet. 19 20 Q. Did they always have to meet in person? 21 A. I beg your pardon? 22 23 Q. Did they always have to meet in person? 24 A. Yes. I think there may have been one or two occasions 25 where we had a bit of a telephone discussion but that was 26 rare. 27 28 Q. Did Mr Doust and Mr Beer remain involved for a long 29 time? 30 A. They were probably the longest serving, I suppose, 31 Mick Doust and Brian Beer, and then Brian got a bit crook 32 later in his career and there were other people who 33 represented the metalworkers on his behalf, but, as I said, 34 we didn't meet all that regularly, so -- 35 36 Q. What were you there for? 37 A. In what respect? 38 39 Q. Why was the group - if it didn't meet regularly, why 40 did it bother continuing? 41 A. I think it was more trying to create that contact with 42 the other organisations in the building and construction 43 industry because you would well appreciate that trade union 44 politics don't go as smoothly as some people believe they 45 do from time to time and those meetings, when we had them, 46 were fairly valuable just to touch base with other 47 officials and what have you.


1 2 Q. Can you say, even if it wasn't regular, how often on 3 average did they meet, per year or per two years or 4 whatever it was? 5 A. Probably two or three times a year, I suppose. 6 7 Q. At least that or -- 8 A. At least that and some other occasions, if there was a 9 pressing issue that warranted a meeting of the 10 organisation, but there was no schedule of meetings. 11 12 Q. How were they organised? 13 A. Usually by phone. 14 15 Q. Who set them up? 16 A. Well, when I was in the role I'd ring around to see 17 who was available and organise a meeting. Sometimes they'd 18 convene a meeting without me because it was normally 19 senior, more senior officers of the Union that participated 20 in more important issues. 21 22 Q. Were minutes kept? 23 A. Sometimes, sometimes, because it was a fairly loose 24 way of operating together. 25 26 Q. Where were the records of the minutes kept, where were 27 the actual documents kept? 28 A. When I was involved they were kept in the office, the 29 Branch office, but they were usually handwritten notes 30 because - I worked out of the city office. We didn't have 31 a secretary to do typing and what have you and I'm a 32 one-finger typist self-taught, so it would take me forever 33 to type something up, so it was all handwritten notes and 34 it was put in a manilla folder and stuck in a file. 35 36 Q. Was that the sum total of the records of the BTG, 37 handwritten notes, sometimes taken and stuck in a manilla 38 folder? 39 A. Yes, sometimes typed up. Sometimes typed up, if I had 40 an opportunity to pass it to someone who could type, but 41 that was about it. 42 43 Q. So you say in the city office of the CFMEU? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you expect that they would still be there or don't 47 you know?


1 A. I doubt it because we moved on three occasions that 2 I'm aware of and I don't know whether they ended up in 3 Bin 13 or what. 4 5 Q. Can you please turn to page 459 of this volume 2 that 6 I showed you earlier. 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. Do you see there minutes of a meeting held, the Labour 10 Council of New South Wales, Building Trades Group of 11 Unions, Tony Papa, Mick Doust, President, 1 May 2002? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. That would appear to be a formal document? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Signed by yourself? 18 A. Yes, that is my signature. 19 20 Q. It says: 21 22 [The] Secretary gave a report concerning 23 B.T.G Accounts saying that, there are two 24 active accounts as at 30th April 2002. 25 26 - Combined Building Unions 27 - [New South Wales] BTG Picnic Comm 28 Account. 29 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. And then a new account, it says below, was resolved to 33 "be opened with the CBA to be called 'Building Trades Group 34 Account'", and that the Picnic Fund moneys and the other 35 moneys in the other account be transferred to that account? 36 A. Yes, I see that. 37 38 Q. Does that refresh your memory at all? 39 A. No. No. 40 41 Q. Would you put that to one side. Did you want to see 42 that first? 43 A. No, that's fine. 44 45 Q. Can you tell the Commission, please, about the 46 Building Trades Group Drug and Alcohol Committee? 47 A. I didn't know too much about the BTG DA until I got


1 involved with Foundation House in the position I currently 2 am. 3 4 Q. What did you think the full name of that Committee 5 was? 6 A. BTG Drug and Alcohol Committee, as I know it, yes. 7 8 Q. Do I take it from your last few answers you were never 9 on that Committee? 10 A. I was on the Committee but again it met very 11 sporadically as well. The person who actually controlled 12 that Committee was Trevor Sharp. 13 14 Q. When did you join that Committee? 15 A. I'm not quite sure, to tell you the truth. I think it 16 was after Trevor left that I took over from him. 17 18 Q. So that was -- 19 A. I was on it before in name only but I didn't attend 20 too many meetings, quite frankly. 21 22 Q. What do you mean by you saying you were on it in name 23 only? What does that mean? 24 A. I had a lot of other responsibilities that had 25 priority, as far as I was concerned. For instance, I was 26 on the WorkCover Industry Reference Group. I was on the 27 DAC Committee which is the Demolition Asbestos Consultative 28 Committee from WorkCover as well. I had a lot to do with - 29 and my involvement was drawing up industry practices with 30 WorkCover, industry practices like from formwork to steel 31 fixing and a lot of other stuff that I was involved with, 32 and then I had my own area as an organiser to attend to as 33 well, which was a fairly large area, and I also was 34 involved in doing enterprise agreements, et cetera, 35 et cetera, so I had a fairly full book. So attending the 36 meetings of this Committee wasn't a priority for me. 37 38 Q. Are you saying you never attended? 39 A. I did attend, as I said earlier, but it wasn't a 40 priority. 41 42 Q. How many times? 43 A. I'm not quite sure how many meetings I attended, but 44 more often than not I'd - I remember we were in 45 Wentworth Avenue in the city, I probably attended one or 46 two meetings there, and then when we moved the city office 47 it went to Sussex Street and the BTG moved out to


1 Callan Park, so I never got out there all that regularly. 2 I can recall Toni Mitchell or Mrs Mitchell would ring me 3 and ask me to sign documents and stuff like that, or if 4 I wasn't able to get there she'd send a parcel with 5 Tommy Simpson to me and I'd sign them and he'd take them 6 back. 7 8 Q. When did you start your involvement with the 9 Committee? 10 A. I said I wasn't sure, but I was on the Board of 11 Foundation House for some years, so it would have been then 12 and after - certainly after Graham Childs had his accident, 13 so -- 14 15 Q. Do you say you were involved with the BTG D and A 16 Committee, even if not intensely, for a long period of 17 time? 18 A. It depends what you deem to be a long period, but yes, 19 it would be a few years, yes. 20 21 Q. You've indicated that Mr Childs got ill, I think, 22 what, 2002, was it? 23 A. Since 2002 when I took over from Graham. 24 25 Q. Do you believe that it was about then that you became 26 involved with the BTG D and A or later? 27 A. Yes, around about then; maybe a little later, who 28 knows, yes. 29 30 Q. Could the witness please be shown volume 1 of the bank 31 accounts, MFI-3. 32 A. Thank you. 33 34 Q. Could you please turn to page 1. 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Do you see there on the letterhead of the Building 38 Trades Group of Unions Drug and Alcohol Committee a letter 39 dated 16 December 2002 to the Manager of the Commonwealth 40 Bank? 41 A. That's correct. 42 43 Q. It is asking for a new account to be opened in the 44 names of the Building Trades Group of Unions Drug & 45 Alcohol/Safety Program? 46 A. Yes, I see that. 47


1 Q. Could you turn over the page. Do you see there, 2 amongst other things, your name, your address and your 3 signature? 4 A. Yes, I see that. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: If I haven't already made a direction 7 that the residential addresses on that page be kept 8 confidential, I do so now. 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: May it please the Commission. 11 12 Q. And then over the page, page 3, do you see your 13 signature? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. What position did you hold? 17 A. A member of the Committee, by the look of it, 18 according to this. 19 20 Q. Do you know why it was you who had to sign this form, 21 or not had to but did? 22 A. I don't know. I was asked to sign this. None of that 23 is my handwriting except my signature. I'm not sure who 24 drew that up, so -- 25 26 Q. Right. Over the page again, at page 4. 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Do you see a letter, the same letterhead but this time 30 4 November 2005. This is in relation to removing Mr Sharp 31 from the signatories listings only and do you see there 32 your name over at page 5. 33 A. Yes, I do. 34 35 Q. Do you see over on page 7 -- 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: Just one moment. I make a direction 38 that what appear to be residential addresses on that page 39 not be published. 40 41 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 42 43 Q. Then at page 7, under section 8, do you see that the 44 full name of the Association in relation to which the 45 account is set up is the Building Trades Group of Unions 46 Drug and Alcohol Committee? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. And that is your signature? 3 A. Indeed. 4 5 Q. You say that you weren't at Rozelle much? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. At all? 9 A. Rarely, in fact. 10 11 Q. Why would you ever come out? 12 A. Toni would normally give me a ring and she'd say, 13 "Look, if you're passing can you pop in? There's a couple 14 of documents I want you to sign", or a document, so I'd pop 15 in, sign it and go. And other times, as I indicated, Tommy 16 Simpson would be given a folder or large envelope with 17 documents in it that required me to sign and I'd sign them 18 and he'd take them back to Toni. 19 20 Q. What, if any, attention did you give the documents you 21 were signing? What was your practice? 22 A. I didn't look at them thoroughly because, I don't 23 know, maybe I'm very trusting of people I work with, so 24 I just accepted that they were doing their job and they 25 wanted a signature and I provided that signature and went 26 about my other business. 27 28 Q. Prior to you becoming Executive Director I think you 29 said of Foundation House, your role with the CFMEU was as 30 an organiser? 31 A. Correct. 32 33 Q. Were you responsible for negotiating EBAs? 34 A. I did, yes, not all of them, I looked after particular 35 areas. The last responsibility I had was the tower crane 36 sector as an example. I did the enterprise agreements with 37 the tower crane sector. Prior to that I was involved in 38 enterprise agreements for concreters - not concreters, 39 steel fixers, formworkers in particular, some painters from 40 time to time that worked in my area and renderers. 41 42 Q. In relation to the clauses within the EBA which had 43 money go to either Foundation House or later the 44 administrator of the BTG D and A Committee, do you recall 45 what was discussed in the course of negotiations, if 46 anything, in relation to the EBAs you had something to do 47 with?


1 A. I can tell you the enterprise agreements I had 2 involvement with, in particular the tower crane sector, 3 that was an agreement that took some months, in fact; it 4 wasn't days or weeks, it was some months. There were some 5 employers that wanted the ins and outs of the proverbial 6 duck's back end. We had to go over each word, each clause, 7 each sentence, primarily because the MBA was representing 8 the employers and they just dragged and dragged things out 9 unnecessarily, in my opinion, but they were doing their 10 job. 11 12 Q. Do you recall what, if anything, was said about the 13 clause in relation to the BTG D and A? 14 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, I promoted the 15 Foundation House or the Drug and Alcohol Committee. I did 16 so on the basis that it was and still is to this day a very 17 useful public facility that is used to facilitate treatment 18 for addicts, for drugs, alcohol, problem gambling, and 19 I paid a lot of attention to it and placed a bit of 20 emphasis upon it to the employers and in fact explained 21 things to it. Surprisingly enough, the majority of 22 employers actually supported the clause. 23 24 Q. Do I take it from that that you indicated that the 25 money would be going to Foundation House? 26 A. I didn't say that the money would be going to 27 Foundation House, but I did say that some of the money was 28 going to Foundation House because at the time I got 29 involved with the Union, that was the practice. 30 31 Q. Did you say where else the money would be going? 32 A. I didn't say anything about that, that I'm aware of, 33 but I think the employers knew that the Union was doing a 34 lot of work, in particular, with safety in the building and 35 construction industry and we did the majority of that work, 36 if you like, other than some minor roles that were played 37 by the other unions in the building industry. We had a 38 full-time coordinator or Safety Officer and I remember the 39 role that Brian Miller played. He was instrumental in 40 establishing the Building Trades Group Educational Forum, 41 which was later named after him when he passed away, and 42 the employers knew that the CFMEU were most active on 43 safety issues in the building and construction industry. 44 45 Q. When I asked you did you say where else the money 46 would be going, the first part of your answer that you've 47 just completed was:


1 2 I didn't say anything about that, that I'm 3 aware of ... 4 5 A. No, I didn't, but I didn't need to say anything 6 because most of the employers knew that their contributions 7 would be going to the Drug & Alcohol Foundation and also to 8 the Union for the safety work it was doing in the building 9 industry. 10 11 Q. How do you know that they knew that? 12 A. Well, you know, in terms of conversations that we 13 would have with the employers, they acknowledged the work 14 that the Union were doing and, in fact, some of them even 15 objected to the work that we were doing. 16 17 Q. In relation to the clause, and I'll show you one if 18 you need to see one -- 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. -- where $1 and then $2 was going to the Administrator 22 of the Drug and Alcohol/Safety Program, you say that the 23 employers knew where the money was going, do you? 24 A. Some did, no doubt, and probably some that, 25 particularly, were new to the industry wouldn't, but there 26 was I'd say a fair majority of the employers that would 27 know that the role of the CFMEU in building construction 28 safety was predominantly done by the CFMEU; they knew that. 29 30 Q. I am asking you though in relation to this clause, 31 where it says: 32 33 The parties agree ... 34 35 I am just reading you one, for example, from page 440 of 36 the volume CFMEU Enterprise Bargaining Agreements, MFI-6. 37 A. It that MFI-13? 38 39 Q. No, it's MFI-6, but we can put it up on the screen 40 unless you find that -- 41 A. No, that's okay. 42 43 Q. The last dot point on this page, page 440? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you see there: 47


1 The parties agree that the Company will 2 contribute $2.00 per week per Employee to 3 an administrator nominated by the Building 4 Trades Group (BTG) of Unions Drug 5 & Alcohol/Safety Program, to assist with 6 the provision of drug & alcohol 7 rehabilitation & treatment services/safety 8 programs for the building & construction 9 industry. This will apply to all Employees 10 of the Company (except apprentices and 11 trainees). 12 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. You said earlier that you didn't explain where the 16 money was going; is that right? 17 A. To the employers? 18 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. I told the employers that the BTG would obviously - 21 and in those days - what date was that? 2006? 22 23 Q. This one is 2006 to 2008. 24 A. I think Laytins Mayfair were in fact receiving the 25 money at that time. If I'm not mistaken I think they were 26 involved, Laytins Mayfair. 27 28 Q. You said earlier that you did not explain where the 29 money was going, is that right, but you just say that the 30 employers knew? 31 A. Not to every employer. Some employers who actually 32 raised this issue I'd give them an explanation, but the 33 majority knew what was going on with the industry and the 34 Safety Program and drugs and alcohol and they do to this 35 day. 36 37 Q. Are you saying that the majority of the employers knew 38 that a portion of this money went back to the CFMEU, is 39 that what you're saying? 40 A. Some did, yes, I indicated earlier, yes. 41 42 Q. And some didn't? 43 A. Yes, particularly those who came into the industry 44 and, you know, weren't aware of the practices and what have 45 you, they may not have, but they would have learnt in time, 46 I would imagine. 47


1 Q. Are you able to name employers who you say knew that a 2 portion of this money went back to the CFMEU? 3 A. Not off memory, but I do know that where I was 4 involved I tried to provide as full an explanation as 5 I could, not only to the employers but also to the 6 employees whom we had to get consent for proceeding with 7 the enterprise agreement. 8 9 Q. Do you say that in relation to some of the 10 negotiations, the Master Builders were involved? 11 A. Yes, they were representing the employers, yes. 12 13 Q. And you say, do you, that they knew where the money 14 was going, that a portion was going back to the CFMEU? 15 A. I'm not sure whether they did, but I presume they 16 would have. 17 18 Q. You don't know, do you? 19 A. No, probably not, I don't, but I presume they would 20 have because they were in the industry a lot longer than I 21 was. 22 23 MS McNAUGHTON: Commissioner, I notice the time and 24 I notice there's something else that needs to occur. 25 I also know that Mr Papa is not going to finish in the next 26 five minutes. Would it be convenient to adjourn now? 27 28 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Could I ask you this, you're free 29 tomorrow to give evidence? 30 A. I'd have no choice, I presume. 31 32 Q. No, you do have the choice. There are various other 33 things that are planned for tomorrow. Could we leave it on 34 this basis, that you're excused from attendance until say 35 11 o'clock and by 11 o'clock we'll have a clearer idea. 36 A. 11. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Could I ask Ms McNaughton this 39 question - how long do you think it will take for this 40 witness's evidence to finish? 41 42 MS McNAUGHTON: I think it could take two hours. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 45 46 Q. I think the best thing is if you could come back 47 tomorrow at 11.


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. I am just trying to accommodate -- 4 A. No, that's fine. 5 6 Q. -- your need to come here and your need to carry on 7 normal activity? 8 A. That is fine. 9 10 Q. Very well. And either it will be done then or some 11 certainty will be brought into the position. 12 A. Yes. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: I think in lieu of the fact there may 15 be the need for documents to be arranged and so on, that it 16 is a good idea to have a five-minute adjournment. 17 18 AT 4.00PM THE HEARING ADJOURNED TO TUESDAY, 18 AUGUST 2015 19 AT 11AM 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47
