velociteach...andy crowe: you know, that’s the beauty of project management, nick. you pull from...
TRANSCRIPT
VELOCITEACH
EVENT: PODCAST
SERIES: MANAGE THIS
EPISODE: 030
DATE: TUESDAY, MARCH 21, 2017
MODERATOR: NICK WALKER
EXPERTS: ANDY CROWE & BILL YATES
GUEST: HEIDI FOGELL SOURCE: MANAGE THIS EPISODE 30.MP3
LENGTH: 30 MINUTES
ANDY CROWE ● BILL YATES ● NICK WALKER ● HEIDI FOGELL
NICK WALKER: Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project
managers for project managers. This is our conversation about
what matters most to you, whether you are a seasoned
professional or just trying to get started with your project
management certifications. It’s our goal to help you improve,
challenge you, motivate you, and, if possible, encourage you
with stories from others in the profession.
I’m your host, Nick Walker, and with me are the experts at all
this, Andy Crowe and Bill Yates. And Andy, today we get a
chance to draw on the experience of someone who has really an
incredible diverse background.
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ANDY CROWE: You know, that’s the beauty of project management,
Nick. You pull from so many different disciplines. It applies
in so many different ways. And it’s kind of fascinating when
you get people from different disciplines together to look at
how they can manage projects more effectively.
NICK WALKER: Well, let’s introduce our guest. Heidi Fogell is
a Project Manager and Natural Resources Practice Leader for Amec
Foster Wheeler in Kennesaw, Georgia. She’s a biologist and has
been an adviser on ecological issues and habitat assessments and
has negotiated with regulatory agencies. She performs wetland
delineations, biological assessments, as well as hazardous waste
investigations and remediation projects. Heidi, welcome to
Manage This.
HEIDI FOGELL: Good morning. Thank you for having me.
NICK WALKER: Now you have a fascinating background. You’ve
dealt with fish population studies, surface water issues,
sediment and soil projects, and other environmental tasks.
Since our audience can’t see you, I should probably tell them,
no, she is not wearing a lab coat. But how does a scientist get
into project management?
HEIDI FOGELL: Well, at the risk of sounding trite, it was about
a boy. I actually, when I was in grad school for marine biology
at Florida Tech – the route that most people go is to work for a
state or federal agency. And I actually had the opportunity to
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work for an environmental consulting firm. And that opportunity
allowed me to stay where my boyfriend at the time was. And so I
took that opportunity and actually, through that, got lots of
experience working in remediation projects in addition to the
biological projects, and eventually moved up through the ranks
and became a project manager.
NICK WALKER: You know, I always tell young people, life takes
you places that you never expected, so sometimes it’s just good
to go with the flow.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes.
NICK WALKER: But that’s really taken you into a lot of places
that maybe you hadn’t planned on, but allows you to bring kind
of a unique set of skills to it.
HEIDI FOGELL: Right, right. You know, nobody expected a marine
biologist to wind up in Kennesaw, Georgia. It’s not as far away
from the ocean as you can get, but not as close as you probably
should be.
BILL YATES: You could be in Oklahoma or Nebraska.
HEIDI FOGELL: I could be. I could be, but I’m not.
BILL YATES: Heidi, give us a sense for what are some of the
typical projects that you’re working on.
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HEIDI FOGELL: Typically right now I manage environmental
remediation projects under the Superfund process, which is a
federal regulation that cleans up old hazardous waste sites,
usually where there is a known responsible party involved. So
that’s the bulk of my work right now. But I also manage several
smaller projects that support municipal and industrial clients
for getting wetland impacts permitted or addressing impacts to
protected species, basically addressing their environmental
issues so that they can develop their projects responsibly, yet
comply with regulations.
BILL YATES: Got you. There’s something unique that you bring
to the table that I want to get into because when I was reading
over your bio, just getting a sense for the type of work that
you do, I’m getting this image of you with two hats. One hat is
one that I can totally relate to. It’s the project manager, and
the PM has to get things done. The project manager commits the
team to milestones and deadlines and due dates and deliveries
and all these things, budgets. And then there’s another hat
that you wear which is this environmental consultant that kind
of goes back to your roots of, whoa, slow down, you know, don’t
hurry up, but slow down. We need to assess and test and survey
and run all the right – get all the right approvals and go
through the right agencies. So how do you wear those two hats?
How do you juggle that?
HEIDI FOGELL: I dance a lot.
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BILL YATES: Okay.
HEIDI FOGELL: But it’s actually part of – that’s the biggest
part of being in the environmental consulting business. It’s a
very competitive business. The companies that are in it range
from small to large, but it’s a small community. And, you know,
we compete against the same people over and over again in
different arenas. So it’s important to stay on the top of your
game. So you have to be able to jump from one thing to the
next. And that was the hardest thing for me to learn when I
came into environmental consulting because I was very much a
start a project, work it through to the end, finish it, move on
to the next thing.
BILL YATES: Right.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yeah. I can’t do that anymore. I have to touch
10 to 20 different things every day. And that’s difficult to
feel like you’re making progress. But by taking small chunks,
you actually make probably more progress than you would just
sitting and focusing on something for a long time.
ANDY CROWE: So, Heidi, I’m interested in this part, something
you just said. My wife is very much the same way that you are
kind of wired, that she wants to start a project, just really
grind on that particular project, and then put it in a binder,
finish it, put it away, go to the next. I am somebody, I enjoy
the variety of skipping around.
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BILL YATES: Oh, yes, you do.
ANDY CROWE: Well, no, I do. And I have a lot of irons in the
fire. But I’m able, I guess I’m able to stop something and pick
it back up the next day pretty well. So that’s something I do
well. So how do you manage that, having to do that, but not
being wired that way? Do you have systems in place? Is your
world full of Post-it notes? What does Heidi’s life look like?
HEIDI FOGELL: I have a list. I have a list, but that list has
to be flexible, too. I make my list at the end of the day
before, what I think that I need to accomplish the next day.
And I do check my email pretty regularly to add and subtract
from that list, and then adjust it in the morning. And then at
the end of the day I look back, and I say, oh well, I got two
things done on the list, but I also accomplished eight other
things. So I think, to me, being organized is the best way to
manage that; and then also making myself be flexible and realize
that it doesn’t have to get done right away.
ANDY CROWE: Out of all the technology and all the apps that
have come out, I still have not beaten a paper list in terms of
its effectiveness and just getting things done.
BILL YATES: Right.
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HEIDI FOGELL: I can’t. I need a paper list and a paper
calendar. I need to be able to see the month in front of me
still. Yeah.
BILL YATES: There’s a pleasure that I get in taking that little
item on a paper list and scratching it off and saying it’s done.
HEIDI FOGELL: It’s absolutely thrilling to do that.
ANDY CROWE: So let me find something out about you two because
I’m to the point now where, if I do something that is not on my
list, I write it down on the list for the sheer joy of getting
to strike it off.
BILL YATES: Oh yes. That’s me.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yeah. I just raised my hand to that one, too.
ANDY CROWE: I think they make medications that’ll treat the
three of us. But you know what? We get things done, so good.
BILL YATES: Let’s buy it in bulk.
HEIDI FOGELL: That’s right.
NICK WALKER: My problem is that I lose my list, and I have to
make a brand new one, and it’s usually different from
the original.
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ANDY CROWE: Heidi, tell me, as you approach a project, and this
is something I’m always interested in, how do you sort of
organize and approach it? When you get assigned a new project,
where do you begin? How do you start? How do you even begin to
think about the overall deliverables and how you’re going to
do it?
HEIDI FOGELL: Oh. Well, it really depends on the size of the
project. The larger projects we work really as big cohesive
teams on. So there’s a group of people planning these things.
And generally what happens, if it’s something that’s completely
new, we get a Request For Proposal from a client. And usually
we’re competing against people.
So we actually – a bunch of people get in a room and sit down
and plan it out. And we go through the scope of work. We
itemize the lists that they’re asking for. We plan out the
amount of time we think those things will cost, the personnel
that get loaded into that. And then from that we build up the
budgets. So it’s basically, it’s looking at what the
deliverables are going to be and then building up the tasks
underneath those deliverables. And it’s a similar effort for a
smaller project, but obviously the number of people involved is
much smaller.
BILL YATES: That’s good. I can think back to RFPs where our
team did a great job of estimating, and we won the business, and
we actually made money off of it.
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HEIDI FOGELL: Wow. Impressive.
BILL YATES: And then others that were not so good.
HEIDI FOGELL: Right, right.
BILL YATES: You know, there were some rocks that we didn’t turn
over and look under. And those are tough. Are there some
things that you can think back in that RFP process where you
guys have found, okay, these are things that are common
“gotchas” that we need to look out for?
HEIDI FOGELL: Not fully understanding the scope is probably the
biggest one. You know, communication, I think, is probably one
of the most important aspects of probably any business. And how
a scope is written can make or break how you put a
proposal together.
BILL YATES: Right.
HEIDI FOGELL: Because it’s your understanding of what you see
on the page, and that’s not necessarily the same understanding
as the person who wrote it.
BILL YATES: Correct.
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HEIDI FOGELL: And so usually we have the opportunity to ask
questions and get clarifications. But sometimes you don’t, and
so that’s usually the biggest stumbling block.
ANDY CROWE: I thought that’s why courts existed, to help
bring clarity.
HEIDI FOGELL: Well, hopefully courts never come into what
we’re doing.
BILL YATES: The type of projects that you’re doing, though,
because they impact the environment, I know you’re dealing with
more regulation than the typical project manager.
HEIDI FOGELL: Right.
BILL YATES: I think we had a guest in, Keith Williams, in the
utility area. And many of the projects that they’re doing
impact the power supplies that we have and, of course, the
environment. And, you know, I sympathize with the extra weight
that that brings to you in a project and the perspective that
you have to have. One of the things that I see on the
background, the experience that you have is, you know, again,
kind of back – you’re a scientist, and you’re also a PM.
So I think one of the advantages that you have is when you’re
building that – when you’re looking at the RFP, when you’re
building out your project team, even when you’re looking at
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estimates, you have the background where you may not be the
expert in whatever the particular, you know, groundwater
treatment or whatever is going on, science-wise. But you know
enough where you can do a sniff test and go, this is not even
close; or this person looks like they’ve got the skill for it or
not. How does that play out? Have you seen that play out on
some of the teams that you’ve put together?
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes, definitely. And also we do a lot of
networking within our own company because my company is large.
We have 35,000 employees worldwide. So we have networking
systems, and we use those. And we also talk to each other, you
know, trying to find the best resources to put on a project and
whether it makes sense to put those people on the project. Is
it cost effective to do so? And if it’s not cost effective, we
will bring in subcontractors, if necessary, to make it so.
BILL YATES: Right. So out of 35,000 people, you’ve got to have
the right one; right?
HEIDI FOGELL: We pretty much do everything. Yes. And usually
so. But, you know, it may not make sense to bring someone from
Europe to work on a project in Alabama, for example.
BILL YATES: Exactly.
HEIDI FOGELL: So we do what we can. And sometimes that...
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ANDY CROWE: And there’s a language barrier there, even if they
all speak English.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes, there is.
BILL YATES: But we love our listeners that are in Alabama.
HEIDI FOGELL: Absolutely.
ANDY CROWE: Well, I was talking about the ones in Europe.
NICK WALKER: You know, Heidi, we often like to hear about
specific projects.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes.
NICK WALKER: You know, how they developed; how they evolved.
Is there a recent project that you’ve worked on that you can
share a little bit about?
HEIDI FOGELL: There is one. And I’ll actually – it’s one that
didn’t go so well. I mean, we did complete it, and it was
successful in the fact that we got the job done. But the path
there was tortuous, to say the least, and long, and not really
successful in my book just because, you know, we didn’t – we
actually lost a little bit of money on it. We didn’t get to
fully complete the assignment. And it just – it may not be the
best project to put up as an example as far as a success story
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goes, but I view it as a valuable learning project. I learned a
lot from that project, mostly what not to do, but a good bit of
what to do.
ANDY CROWE: So Heidi, to me, those are some of the best lessons
that we can learn is when you learn what not to do. And it’s
valuable. It’s valuable sometimes to color outside the lines,
see that you maybe made a mistake, and look back at it and
think, okay. So in this case, did you learn anything? You said
maybe some things that you wish you hadn’t done?
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes. It was again an issue of not fully
understanding the scope. We were brought in as a subcontractor
on the project by another firm that then went out of business.
So then the client wanted to contract with us directly. And
the scope...
BILL YATES: That sounds good, right?
HEIDI FOGELL: It sounds good. You know, eliminate the
middleman. But then they had a different idea of what the scope
needed to be than we did. And it kept changing. And the
project kept changing. And because of that we had to keep
changing our outputs and our testing and our results and our
reports, and it kept dragging out and dragging out and dragging
out. And so the end result was a three-mile-long road-widening
project in a municipal area that was already developed. Took
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more than five months to get the – not five months, excuse me –
five years to get the environmental documents approved.
NICK WALKER: Oh, wow.
BILL YATES: Wow.
HEIDI FOGELL: And we lost, not a lot of money, but we had to go
back and ask for money multiple times from the board of
commissioners. And they got to the point where they said, “Do
not come back and ask us for more money.” So we had to finish,
but then we lost money on the job. And we got it done; but it
was, you know, not the best result.
BILL YATES: Right.
HEIDI FOGELL: I also learned that, if somebody fills in for you
temporarily, don’t expect them to give it the level of attention
that you would give it because they know they’re only on it
temporarily. They’re just going to babysit it for you. They’re
not necessarily going to move it forward the way it needs to be
moved forward. So I learned that lesson.
ANDY CROWE: Okay. I want to probe just a little bit more here,
and I hope I don’t get too personal.
HEIDI FOGELL: That’s okay.
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ANDY CROWE: But during these projects, you had a couple of
maternity leaves.
HEIDI FOGELL: I did.
ANDY CROWE: And a lot of listeners will be interested
in this...
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes.
ANDY CROWE: ...and how it affected you and what you learned.
So you just were talking about somebody filling in for you
temporarily. Was that related to your maternity leave?
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes. Yes, it was.
ANDY CROWE: Okay.
HEIDI FOGELL: And I actually, while that project went on, I had
two babies – so that tells you how long it went on – and went on
two maternity leaves. And the first maternity leave I went on,
I gave the project to a seasoned project manager to run for me,
and it was in the middle of it. We were in the middle of doing
the analyses, doing the air and noise studies, writing the
reports. And the person who was doing that work left the
company. Not the person who was managing for me, but the person
who was actually performing the work left the company.
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So he did what any good project manager would do. He found a
replacement. He found a very expensive replacement. So budget
blown. And then that’s all he did. He didn’t actually talk to
the client at all while I was gone, didn’t move it forward in
any way. So when I came back, the project was a little bit of a
mess. So I had to fix it.
When I went on the second maternity leave, same thing happened
because we were redoing the reports by that point because enough
time had passed that GDOT had changed how they wanted things to
look. So we had to redo everything anyway, and the same thing
happened again. And not that these weren’t people that were not
great at their jobs, that weren’t doing me a favor. But they
didn’t have an investment in it.
ANDY CROWE: You know, there’s a joke in project management:
Who’s the first person you blame? And the answer’s the vendor.
Well, actually the first person’s the guy who just left; okay?
The second one is the vendor. And I’m going to add the third
one is whoever replaced the person on maternity leave.
BILL YATES: Right, right, right.
ANDY CROWE: Or maybe the person on maternity leave, if you
really want to push the envelope there.
HEIDI FOGELL: Right, right. But in my business, the person
that gets blamed is the consultant.
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BILL YATES: Yeah. There you go. Exactly.
HEIDI FOGELL: That’s who gets blamed.
ANDY CROWE: Yeah, the vendor, yeah.
BILL YATES: But so there’s looking at this from a practical
standpoint because I think even, like, if I go on an extended
vacation, I have that battle of trying to think, okay, vacations
are a chance for me to unplug.
HEIDI FOGELL: Right.
BILL YATES: However, I know my inbox is going to be full, and I
know I’m going to have a stack of things to go through when I
return. So I’m constantly fighting this battle of, do I take a
peek? Do I try to knock out some things while I’m on vacation?
Or do I just ignore it and then pay the price when I get back?
Maternity leave, now, that’s times a hundred; right? And you’re
in the middle of a project, and you know there are things going
on that you’re curious about because that was kind of your baby,
too. And so how did you juggle that?
HEIDI FOGELL: Well, by law you actually can’t really juggle it
because you’re on short-term disability.
BILL YATES: There you go. See, I learned something
today, Nick.
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NICK WALKER: Mm-hmm.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yeah. So while I was checking my emails, I
wasn’t really doing anything about it. Shhh. Don’t tell
anybody. But I would answer the phone and answer questions, you
know, just like you would if you leave a job, you know, to help
transition things. But technically you’re not allowed to.
BILL YATES: Right. Wow.
NICK WALKER: You know, this is a situation where you say you’ve
learned a lot; but can you actually look back and say, I would
have done this differently? Or can you only say, I wish they
had done that differently?
HEIDI FOGELL: I know what answer I want to say, but that seems
like the selfish answer. I wish they had done it differently.
But I’m not really sure how I could have done it differently. I
don’t know if picking a different person would have made a
difference. I don’t think that it would have because I’ve seen
the same thing in another project that I work on as
the consultant.
Our EPA project manager went on a – they change and function
within other federal industries from time to time, do six-month
stints with another industry. And she left for a six-month
period and had a replacement, and she expected that he would do
all of this work on the project while she was gone, and he
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didn’t, either. So I don’t know that it’s a factor of the
actual people that were chosen. I just think it’s a mentality.
You know, everybody’s busy, and they’re helping somebody out;
but they’re not necessarily invested in it maybe the way that
the actual people that are involved in it day to day are.
BILL YATES: Right. I have a question about that scope
clarification that came about, Heidi. When you guys became the
prime on that contract, there was confusion over scope, and it
kept broadening.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes.
BILL YATES: And there were several little, “Hey, wait a minute”
moments, it sounds like.
HEIDI FOGELL: Right, right.
BILL YATES: Looking back on that, if you, you know, if you
could hit the rewind button, what would you have done
differently, or encouraged the team to do differently?
HEIDI FOGELL: I would have written a tighter scope of work in
my proposal and made several additional clarifications and
assumptions within the proposal. They were there, but it wasn’t
obvious that they were there. So I was constantly going back
with the client and saying, “No, we said two rounds of comments.
This is your third, so I’m going to need a change order.”
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And the other point of that project that I should mention, there
was also a change in the client manager. So the original client
project manager was taken off the project because it wasn’t
getting moved forward fast enough, and the new guy that came on
was, you know, he was going to make it happen. So there was
that compounding factor, too. So I would have written the scope
tighter and made very clear assumptions in the document so that
we had very sound bases for going back and requesting
additional funding.
BILL YATES: Yeah. I’ve got a follow up question, too. You
said it was a five year? So this thing spanned across
five years.
HEIDI FOGELL: Well, yeah. And we actually inherited it from
somebody else. It was going on for five years before that, so.
BILL YATES: Okay.
ANDY CROWE: Wow.
BILL YATES: So, you know, I think about the projects that I
typically worked on were six months to 18 months. And we were
surprised by the amount of turnover with our key stakeholders
during that period. And now you’re talking about something five
years. How did you guys – what were some of the habits that you
did, or maybe it was a part of your normal status meetings just
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to take a look at the stakeholders and make sure things had
not changed?
HEIDI FOGELL: That’s what we did. We have regular status
meetings. I have staff meetings every couple weeks, and those
were the folks that were working on the project. And then I
check in regularly with my team members, just, you know, how is
it going? I try not to micromanage people because I know that I
don’t like it. And if somebody’s constantly bugging me, that
slows me down. So but I do try to check in with people
periodically just to make sure that they’re moving forward and
the squeakier wheel isn’t getting the grease, so to speak.
NICK WALKER: I want to ask you something general here.
HEIDI FOGELL: Sure.
NICK WALKER: What’s a fun kind of project for you? Is there
anything you’d classify as “fun” that you’ve worked on?
HEIDI FOGELL: Oh, gosh. Lots of them. Okay. I had a project
where I actually got paid...
NICK WALKER: You got paid?
HEIDI FOGELL: I got paid. I got paid to dive and look for
seagrass beds. That was fun.
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BILL YATES: Wow.
HEIDI FOGELL: It was even more fun when I found out after the
fact that there were known alligators in that area. But they
didn’t tell me that before I went in, so I wasn’t expecting it.
ANDY CROWE: That’s an opportunity for a new pair of shoes or a
briefcase or a wallet, yeah.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yeah, you know? I like the way you think. So
that was fun. And actually, most of the work that I do I
consider fun because we’re looking for – sometimes we don’t have
the means to be creative to solve clients’ problems because, you
know, there is regulation that we have to go by, and sometimes
there’s very little wiggle room. But in many instances,
particularly on the larger remediation projects, we can get
really creative and innovative with how we do things. I’m
working on a project right now that I can’t really go into the
specifics. But in order to reduce the remediation footprint,
we’re actually going to move a river. That’s pretty cool
and fun.
BILL YATES: Wow.
HEIDI FOGELL: And it’s not a little river, it’s a big river.
So we’re kind of in the middle of that right now, and that’s
pretty exciting.
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BILL YATES: That’s cool.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yeah. And I get to work with a really diverse
team of people that really know what they’re doing, and that’s a
lot of fun.
BILL YATES: That’s fun. There’s another piece that I just was
thinking about. I was doing work with Pacific Gas and Electric
when the Erin Brockovich movie came out.
HEIDI FOGELL: Oh, okay.
BILL YATES: So actually I remember one day going to – I was
consulting with them, and I had to walk across a picket line.
There was some protesting going out in front of the corporate
office. And so from time to time some of the projects that
you’re working on are – they may be making the front of
the paper.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yes, they may.
BILL YATES: And how do you manage that? How do you guys
control your communication to make sure that you don’t have a
team member who’s speaking out of line?
HEIDI FOGELL: We have meetings with our staff before there’s
any kind of potential interaction with the public. For example,
if we’re going out to do field sampling, we have – safety is
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very important in our business. Most of our people have OSHA
HAZWOPER Training because we’re dealing with potentially
contaminated environmental media. And so we have safety
briefings every morning, and sometimes at lunch, and usually
tailgate meetings at the end of the day. You know, what went
well? What could have gone better?
So when that’s an issue, particularly first meeting of the day,
we say, “If anybody comes up to you and has a question, here’s
what you’re to say.” And we usually have been told by the
client what to say. “Here’s who you can refer them to if they
have questions.” And, you know, “If you see a newspaper
reporter or anything, just make sure you’ve got your gloves on;
make sure you’re doing your job right.” But that’s what we do
every day. But that’s what we do. We communicate with our
staff to make sure that they know. But it does happen on
occasion that somebody messes up.
ANDY CROWE: Sure. Heidi, I’ve got a question as we kind of
wrap up the podcast here. What do you look for in a PM, in a
project manager? What characteristics are you most interested
in for project managers that you work with or that work for you?
HEIDI FOGELL: An ability to think quickly on their feet is very
important. Also the ability to work well with a diverse group
of people because you need to be able to absorb other people’s
ideas and interpret how they might work within the framework of
what you’re doing. You need to be detail-oriented enough to be
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able to pay attention to your scope, schedule, and budget. And
you need to have good planning and organizational skills,
particularly if you’re working in large, diverse projects, you
know. It’s crucial. It’s essential. You have to – you can’t
just, you know, be a happy-go-lucky, let-it-lie kind of
project manager.
ANDY CROWE: There are movies playing in my mind with each one
of these that you’re talking about because you learn the
hard way.
HEIDI FOGELL: Right.
ANDY CROWE: You’ll meet the best person in the world who lacks
one of these skills, and you get burned on it. It’s always
going to be the one that’s missing where you get scorched.
HEIDI FOGELL: And I think probably one of the best examples I
got, and one that I try to follow, is I would never ask my team
members to do something I wouldn’t do myself.
BILL YATES: Even swim with alligators.
HEIDI FOGELL: I did it. So, but, you know, I think you have to
garner respect with the people who are working with you. And
you have to, if you’re going to be – if you’re going to ask them
to stay late to put a report together, you should be right there
with them, not going home and kicking your feet up.
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NICK WALKER: Well, Heidi Fogell, thank you so much for being
with us here on Manage This and giving us your valuable insight.
We actually have a special memento of your visit here. That
coffee mug sitting in front of you?
HEIDI FOGELL: Oh, thank you.
NICK WALKER: We’ve gone to great expense to provide that.
We’ve not moved rivers. But you could use it for tea or coffee,
probably even grow seagrass in it, if you’d like to.
HEIDI FOGELL: Yeah, maybe so. Well, thank you for having me.
I enjoyed being here.
NICK WALKER: Well, thanks, Heidi. And Andy and Bill, as
always, thank you for your expertise. Here at Manage This we
pride ourselves on being able to provide a double benefit from
this podcast. Not only do you get the benefit of hearing
others’ experiences, but you also earn PDUs, Professional
Development Units, toward your recertifications. To claim your
free PDUs for this podcast, just go to Velociteach.com and
select Manage This Podcast from the top of the page. Click on
the button that says Claim PDUs, and just click through
the steps.
That’s it for us here on Manage This. We hope you’ll tune back
in on April 4th for our next podcast. In the meantime, you can
visit us at Velociteach.com/managethis to subscribe to this
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podcast, to see a transcript of the show, or to contact us. And
tweet us at @manage_this if you have any questions about our
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to hear from you.
That’s all for this episode. Thanks for joining us. Until next
time, keep calm and Manage This.