transcription rencontre mep bové - swedish match
TRANSCRIPT
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Transcription of the meeting between
• José Bové -‐ MEP
• Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes -‐ MEP Assistant
• Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson : Swedish Match
• Johann Gabrielsson : Swedish Match
Date : 20 mars 2013
Heure : 16:45 à 18:05
Place : Bureau de José Bové -‐ Parlement européen à Bruxelles
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José Bové: I've been working since [unclear 0:02] years on transparency, with, against pesticide companies, against GMOs and I know how lobbying is going on. So for me it's not a problem. Somebody can fight for his company, try to struggle for getting it better. So this is not a problem, but it has to be clear how things are going on, and we don't need to have a big mess. European Union has so many difficulties in this moment, we don't need to have some more. So that's why I think that we have to be clear on that.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Absolutely.
José Bové: Okay?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I agree.
Johann Gabrielsson: It's just that when we sit and talk and have, it's just knowing that it's nothing that you want to publish or, the recordings or so.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Are you putting the recordings on the website?
José Bové: No, just to be have, to say okay. I asked the members of my committee, Agriculture Committee, who has been receiving letters because the debate is going to go also in our committee on the tobacco directive, so I wanted to know who has. For the moment I have no answer. And I think it's better if it's clear on the table, because when we are in this kind of subjects we have to be completely clear.
And for me, you know, I am not against smokers, as you can see. For me it's clear. This is my volunteer, but I mean the difference between the citizens that smoke and the interest of the companies. For me, these are two things completely different. So I can understand other positions, but we have to be clear when we talk from where we are talking.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I think it's a very good point because there is a lot of things happening in the [unclear 1:55] of the [unclear 1:56] and, of course, there should be transparency, all over. I mean for our industry and for other industries. It's important because otherwise we would end up in a mess that we have been in.
José Bové: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, because it's a big mess. Yeah.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah, so we never expected that it wouldn't be transparent. So that's another matter we centre talk about.
José Bové: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Johann Gabrielsson: But first, I don't know if you know what Swedish Match. We're a small, we're not producing cigarettes. We make matches. We're a small Swedish company.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Feudor, the French match. That's our brand.
Johann Gabrielsson: That's Swedish Match, and we...
José Bové: And they work quite well.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: That's our first safety match.
José Bové: Yes.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And the lighters. Maybe you have one of our lighters in your [unclear 2:44].
José Bové: No way. [Unclear 2:45].
Johann Gabrielsson: Cricket is the [unclear 2:47].
José Bové: ...quite well.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Cricket, or.
Johann Gabrielsson: And above all we make traditional tobacco product called snus which has been used in Sweden for several hundred years. It's based on tradition, quality and we believe firmly in quality and tradition. I don't know if you've ever seen snus?
José Bové: Yeah, I seen. There's a lot of parliamenters who use it.
Johann Gabrielsson: Smoking pipe I can see is a pleasure for you, but if you want I would like to quit, I can assure you this is a very good means. Actually in Sweden nowadays there are more people using this than smoking any kind of tobacco. So in Sweden we are using tobacco on about the same average as the Europeans, but with a difference that we put small bags under our lip instead of inhaling smoke. And that has then, of course, been very clear in the health statistics. We have the lowest cancer rates in the developed world, lowest tobacco related mortality in the world where you can measure it, and that is clearly because people just don't smoke.
Nowadays you have, in Sweden it's about eight per cent of the men that are smoking, but still if you look at men between 20 and 45 where you have the highest prevalence of smoking in other European countries, I don't know, you have 40 per cent of the men that is [unclear 4:27]. So it's clearly not that we are giving up tobacco, because that I don't think will be possible. I don't think we will see a tobacco or nicotine free society in 50 years.
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And we are then in the awkward position, Swedish Match, that this product being a traditional tobacco product, as many other, and it's also the least harmful tobacco product. You should believe it because I work with Swedish Match. That's of course...
José Bové: But you're allowed to say it. I understand the problem.
Johann Gabrielsson: Exactly. I'm allowed to say it and there's a lot of others that is supporting it, amongst other, WHO, and also the European Commission's own scientific commentary has also stated this. So there we are on quite solid ground.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah, what many of the scientists, they measure risk with tobacco where the cigarette is on the high end of the risk continuum as they call it, and on the other side is the nicotine gums and the patches, the nicotine replacement therapies, and just beside you have snus which is a tobacco product, addictive, it's nicotine. It can give some [unclear 5:42] that there is an overwhelming amount of science showing that there is no risk linked to a lot of cancers that you get from...
Johann Gabrielsson: Not any cancer is there a scientific link between.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: There are a couple of studies which are disputed, but the overwhelming...
José Bové: It's dangerous to say no.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Exactly.
José Bové: It's dangerous to say that.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: You can't say absolutely this is a harm, this product, because no products are absolutely harmless. You can't say that, but if you look at it from a risk perspective, the relative risk of the product is 95 to 99 per cent less riskful than cigarettes. That's where the science put it on this risk continuum scale.
Johann Gabrielsson: But there is something very special with this tobacco product. It is that it's the only tobacco product that is not allowed in the European Union.
José Bové: Well just in part of the European Union because [unclear 6:42].
Johann Gabrielsson: But Sweden have an exemption. That's what...
José Bové: That's when Sweden came inside of European Union.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yes, otherwise...
Johann Gabrielsson: Yes.
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José Bové: Because there is an exemption.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, so Sweden has an exemption.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Otherwise I don't think Sweden would have voted in favour. I worked in the referenda campaign. I believed in Europe, believed in the unity of Europeans.
Johann Gabrielsson: Traditions, different cultures, different tastes.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: The Berlin Wall had just fallen and you remember the feeling, the new Europe that came about then and this, if this hadn't been allowed Swedes would have said no.
José Bové: Yes, but don't you believe that Swedish politicians which have been fighting to go inside to have a good entry to the referendum, did they explain clearly that they had an exception for snus?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: What they said...
José Bové: But they were not sure and maybe most of them knew at that moment that it will not be possible to extend the authorisation to the other countries?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: What we have heard from the people negotiating is that they sort of more or less said that where there is a revision of the directive around the corner we will sort of sort it out then. And what they did in the last directive was that they changed the cancer warning to a less, to this warning that says that this tobacco product is addictive and may harm, cause harm to your health.
So what we, what the people negotiating, they have told us, is that we believe that this would be fixed, this would be rectified.
José Bové: But I'm sure they knew concretely at that moment.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Maybe they did.
José Bové: That it would not happen. And I think a lot of politicians which have been negotiating at that moment, and those who said yes because [unclear 8:36], they know that it would never happen. So I believe that Swedish Match has been took in a [unclear 8:45] trap, a trap on that issue and you have been taking this trap and you didn't know what's going to happen. So this is not the fault of your company, but it's clearly those who told you that this is not going to be a problem for after.
Johann Gabrielsson: Well, I mean...
José Bové: That's what I believe.
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Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, but on the other hand it's politics and politics is a moving animal and we have, of course, all the time hope that reason must sometime come to victory. What is the reason that you have chewed tobacco, you have nasal snuff, you have the other kind of tobacco that looks like snus that is of North African region, that is all allowed, but this one that is the least harmful and has a good effect on Swedish health is not allowed, and we have an internal market and we have a European Union that is supposed to respect tradition, cultures and this is going to be allowed for all European citizens.
So for us, it doesn't make sense and sooner or later this political animal must also understand that reason should prevail. So just because it was said in '92 we have to believe, we are believing in what we are doing and that's something you have to do.
José Bové: Maybe, so you know I was telling you that I have been fighting since years against big companies, so you're not a big company.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, we are definitely not.
José Bové: Okay, so I do know that and I believe it and for me it's okay. But I was quite surprised, maybe you have the answer. Why did a big company want to make a joint venture with you in 2009 just before when your parliament was going on and the new Commission was going to go on? This happened in February and in September 2009 when Philip Morris made a joint venture with you.
Of course I can understand that they could have an interest if snus could be sold all over the countries, but I am not sure that this was their first interest on doing that.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Do you know what happened in Sweden. I think in many of the cigarette companies looked at Sweden and figured why don't we sell our products here and then many of the big cigarette companies has bought up small factories, snus factories. They clearly look at snus as a bit of an odd animal and it's probably really an investment for the big companies, but I believe that the big companies realised that cigarettes are not the future and they need to find new products that they can put on the market.
José Bové: I don't believe in that.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: What I heard yesterday from that hearing in the environment committee is that Philip Morris put three new products, reduced risk products, on the market in the next year in Europe because today there is a legal framework to put new products on the market. As long as you can smoke it or chew it you can put it on the market, but you can't place it because the ban is actually a ban on how you use the tobacco.
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So they would put these products on the market in the next year, this man from Philip Morris said and I think that especially a company like British American Tobacco, they have invested heavily, they bought an e-‐cigarette company, they have invested in a nicotine, in a foreign company, with some sort of smoking device, but it's nicotine.
So I, well we see from the rest of the industry is that they're trying to get into this harm reduction field, which is obviously difficult because they are selling the most lethal of products around, and I think that's also why they wanted a joint venture with us. We weren't a part of that decision, of course, but I think, I guess they looked at our knowledge, our tradition, our expertise and maybe saw this as a test thing. But I think a lot of the companies are looking into new products. That's what I read at least.
José Bové: Yeah, maybe, but I know quite well how the companies work and you know how Philip Morris work and well you know their practices and how they went in front of the court in the United States and so on and how things are still going on all over the world with traffics and so on, and the companies are completely linked with all these things and they are not out of this traffics and so on.
So they make a lot of money with tobacco, a lot, a lot, a lot of money. You know the price of a package, it's five cents. Five cents. So if you make a [unclear 14:04] market, you make a lot of money and so they organise also the market. The companies do it and this was clearly in the reports at the international level and that's why they were sentenced very hard and they had to pay a billion dollars.
So we know clearly. So for me it's not believable that this kind of companies go in saying okay, snus is nice and we're going to benefit of this on the European market. For me it's clear that the debate of snus for them was a way, another way to come in the debate on the new directive on tobacco.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: When we speak to other people I sense that they have a harm reduction agenda but they don't have a market to put the products on, but you know what? It's big companies and we don't know who takes the decision and we don't know for which [unclear 15:07] reasons they take the decisions either. So maybe you're right. I wouldn't know that.
Johann Gabrielsson: We are a very small company.
José Bové: Yes.
Johann Gabrielsson: And compared with them I think we work mainly like a normal consumer producing company. So it's very different to how Swedish Match works because they're [unclear 15:25].
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José Bové: That's why I think that this was a worse thing for you to brung this product in the European Union to be linked with a big company, because that way nobody can believes to you because they say okay, Swedish Match are nice, they're in their country, a small job, okay, but when the link is done with big company, we know who is going to try and push on the decisions. And all the debate which was going on with the commissioners are done by the big companies.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Are you just referring to the Dalli?
José Bové: The Dalli stuff, I read the last, all the information on this. So I read a lot so maybe you know [unclear 16:21] maybe newspapers where I was citing it. So for me it's clear. I'm not saying that your company is in this stuff aligned. Even if I think that some people didn't say what was the truth, and when I see on the newspaper the declaration yesterday, or this morning, I don't remember, it was on the newspaper.
Johann Gabrielsson: It was last week.
José Bové: Last week. The declaration of Mrs Kimberley. You saw this maybe in the newspaper.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: From the Maltese.
Johann Gabrielsson: From the Maltese newspaper.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: You read that.
José Bové: When she explains because she had to go in front of the court to explain herself on the discussion which happened with Mr Zammit and about the two meetings which had been, she told in the beginning in the newspaper and you think this very often and the discussion, the public discussion that there was two meetings. In this newspaper she didn't talk about the second meeting.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: [Unclear 17:30] was the one in Malta.
José Bové: You were there.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah.
José Bové: I know.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: So we've...
José Bové: In the Hilton Hotel.
Johann Gabrielsson: In the Hilton Hotel on the 1st of December I was.
José Bové: And you never went to [Peppi's 17:44].
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[Overspeaking 17:50]
José Bové: So...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But I think it's worth just to put on that, what happened to us is because of initiative that you took when you were quite new with the company. You joined the company only roughly a year ago.
Johann Gabrielsson: A little bit more. It was last autumn. In 2011.
José Bové: 2011.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I mean obviously this is your -‐ I was on maternity leave back then, but I worked a bit also and we had a discussion about the very, very difficult and hopeless process that we were thinking. We had provided a lot of science, we had provided a lot of information to Commission and we just felt that the Commission officials didn't care. They just took our -‐ they treated us like a normal stakeholder but they just [unclear 18:46] and we can say that in the proposal and the impact assessment. The impact assessment is horrible.
Either they are incapable of understanding science or they made up their mind before and I don't think that they're incapable of understanding science. They're smart people. But I think they made up their mind before that snus should not be [unclear 19:04] and that's why...
José Bové: But I don't...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But that's why the events unfolded. That's what happened.
José Bové: Yeah, but this story's quite amazing. How did Mr Zammit, who phoned or send an email to ESTOC, is able the day after to be coming directly to meet Swedish Match and try to have the first contact. When you see the emails and the chronology you put out, because you put out a chronology on the story and we see that the beginning of the story is quite incredible, how this man, okay, I'm going to see, I want to have a link with ESTOC, I take the plane directly and the day after I am directly to meet people from Swedish Match and say okay, now we can try to work and we will go back [unclear 20:01] discuss.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But we never, when you contacted Gayle, we never understood that Zammit was a part of that. When did you first learn, this whole office here...
José Bové: So I want to understand.
Johann Gabrielsson: Of course, we were not a part of that. That was a thing that went via ESTOC and Swedish Match is a part of ESTOC.
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José Bové: Yeah.
Johann Gabrielsson: But if you read the chronology, and as far as I understood at the time, Zammit was selling snus in this kiosk, illegally.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: There are five...
Johann Gabrielsson: There are 5000 Swedish expats living on Malta and working in the gambling industry because all Swedish, gambling [unclear 20:37], so they are 5000 Swedes and they want their snus. And he had understood that so he ordered a lot of snus on internet and sold it in his kiosk.
José Bové: Before?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, yeah.
José Bové: Before this?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yes, before.
José Bové: This contact?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, exactly. So he had a certain interest in snus, but I more or less had heard this story as it has been told there, that he also, Swedish Match cut all its selling on internet because we understood that there were certain...
José Bové: When did you cut?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: The Finnish Cancer Society took one of the snus [unclear 21:19] sailors to court because of smuggling. We have four customers, we had four customers that we sold directly to. They were retailers, eminent retailers, and we had communicated to them that you can't sell to the Union, there's a ban of course, but maybe we didn't really follow up to make sure that they didn't do it. But then...
Johann Gabrielsson: They had a lot of other customers in the world.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But they had...
Johann Gabrielsson: They had internet services all selling to the US and so.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: The US and the rest of the world, so, and then this organisation was suing this company and then we looked into it. So at that time...
Johann Gabrielsson: It's important that Swedish Match was not a part of it. It was an internet retailer that we were delivering to. So it was nothing -‐ and they were selling.
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Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But when we were made aware of that, we told them that if you want to be customers with us you have to stop, you really have to stop selling to Europe because it's illegal. So the three, the four big ones stopped selling to Europe, our product at least. I don't know what they do with other manufacturers, but our product they can't sell. And that's why...
Johann Gabrielsson: He had already, and this is far as I understood, he had already booked one of those Ryanair tickets from Malta to [unclear 22:40], which is one of the Ryanair airports south of Stockholm, and came with a big bag in order to just fill it up with snus in Sweden. Because you are allowed to move snus in European Union as long as it is for your personal use. So it's...
José Bové: That's why we saw so many people here.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, and also you're allowed to have it with you.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: 3000 cans, I think. 3000 cans.
Johann Gabrielsson: But he just emptied a tobacco shop in the shopping and this is, I have no idea, this is just what I heard.
José Bové: Okay, so that can be the explanation to why he came?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, that's so he -‐ and then at that time, he had made a contact with Swedish Match or ESTOC. Do you know, is there like a retailer shop where I can go and buy a lot of snus? And if it was ESTOC or Swedish Match answering, no, we're not selling to you, you have to go to the shop. There is no factory selling or anything.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But desperate as we are to talk about the [unclear 23:55] is that if you want, I wasn't part of that meeting, but if you want to meet and talk about the facts and the science we will, of course, meet you.
José Bové: That's strange. He bought the ticket and he had contact with ESTOC, I don't remember the exact date, but he had already bought the ticket to Stockholm.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah.
José Bové: So he was expecting to meet people from your company?
Johann Gabrielsson: No, no, his purpose was to go and buy snus. It was to stock up on snus. And then, as we always say, we are beggars not choosers, we are not famous MEP parliament that everyone wants to meet. So when someone wants to meet us and are interested in our product, we come and we really want to [unclear 24:45] and we talk their ears off.
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José Bové: I think it's a little bit political too that if I remember, you have been working for the European institutions.
Johann Gabrielsson: For European commissions, yeah.
José Bové: You have been working there. Mrs Kimberley, too.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, she was working for the European Council.
José Bové: No, but for the institution [unclear 25:08] so that mean that you know quite well how the institutions work and how the Council has to be transparent and so on and how the institution, because this is quite clear now, it's quite known that we have to be careful, everybody, because this is how the companies work. How can you believe that Mr Zammit is going to say okay, now we are going to make this famous meeting and I can...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But he wasn't...
Johann Gabrielsson: We never been in contact. I never met, we'd never been in touch with him.
José Bové: No, but he was going on for the contact.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But then he disappeared from our radar.
José Bové: Yes.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Zammit meets with the ESTOC lady who lived in Stockholm back then.
José Bové: Yeah.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And a colleague who is based in Stockholm as well.
José Bové: Yes.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: They had this lounge disco, bought snus, then he goes away and disappears from...
José Bové: That's it.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And I didn't hear about that.
José Bové: And several months after?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Several months after...
Johann Gabrielsson: I contacted...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And then you contacted. Out of your own, you contacted your acquaintance, Gayle.
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Johann Gabrielsson: That's...
[Overspeaking 26:16]
José Bové: ...heard from the institutions before.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, but I'm also, I would say, not a friend but my wife and she is very good friends.
José Bové: Yes.
Johann Gabrielsson: So we have met on certain private occasions, so...
José Bové: And at that moment you knew that Mrs Kimberley had linked also by her mother with Mr...
Johann Gabrielsson: No, that I didn't know at that time. I had no idea. But what I did know, and that I have understood before, is that Malta is a very small island.
José Bové: Yeah.
Johann Gabrielsson: If you come from one of the elite families, have been working for the council or the European Union, if you come from one of the more [unclear 26:58] families, you more or less know each other. But I had no idea that she had a contact with Dalli. What I knew was that she had as a reference on her CV, Tony Borg. No...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: The former -‐ Joe.
Johann Gabrielsson: Joe Borg, the...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: The fisheries.
Johann Gabrielsson: The Fishery Commissioner. So it was not at all -‐ it was very innocent when I contacted her the first time and simply, and I think as I was new also in the company it was very clear to me in what a desperate situation we were in both in Stockholm, in Brussels when it came to being completely ignored. And you should not forget at this time snus was not an issue. I'm sure you had never heard of it being a part of the...
[Overspeaking 27:46]
Johann Gabrielsson: It was not a discussion. It didn't exist. It was completely forgotten.
José Bové: I understand that. I believe that.
Johann Gabrielsson: And the spokesperson of [unclear 27:59]
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: [Unclear 28:00]
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Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, came out and said things publicly, there are no scientific proof that snus is less dangerous than cigarettes.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Obviously [unclear 28:11].
Johann Gabrielsson: An official statesman from [unclear 28:14] and Swedish Match has given a year try and providing science, the legal base, the situation. At least I think the only thing that we small little naive Swedes, was that we were going to get a fair trial. At least they're going to look at our case and if they don't like it, yeah, yeah, that's one thing, but please give us a fair trial and judge us on the science and the legal [unclear 28:44]. Don't just ignore us. Just don't say that we are -‐ and as it was such a small product we had really the feeling they are just ignoring us because no one cares and no one will ever listen to them.
And at this time we were quite sure that [unclear 29:03] was just running the whole process themselves and Dalli was not even, maybe didn't even know that there is a product called snus. I mean very few did. Had he got involved and...
José Bové: So why did you try to, it is Mrs Kimberley who said I can make the deal to have a meeting with Mr Dalli?
Johann Gabrielsson: No, no, I called. I called her and explained to her because she's in Malta, she had left the Council and my wife, [Christine 29:32] had talked to her and I just came up with let's give Gayle a call, it was completely innocent, and ask what she thinks. Do you have any information? Do you know what we could do? How -‐ and that's also important. We had tried to get meetings with Dalli but been ignored. We didn't get. The big companies, they met with, as far as I know, with Dalli and his cabinet and...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We met with the [chef de camp 30:02] but that was as far as we got.
José Bové: This is quite now very good, but you know, this is a big mess for you. I think so. It's a real big mess because you're in a story, a bad story, and you are the bad guys now.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah, which is very strange.
José Bové: Yes, but because that...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We reported something.
José Bové: That's why I believe that you have been...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Played.
José Bové: Played completed in this story.
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Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: No.
José Bové: Because -‐ I finish. I try to make [unclear 30:33]. Really I feel bad for you because I think this is a bad story. So Mrs Kimberley says okay, we can discuss.
Johann Gabrielsson: She simply said -‐ the thing is it's very important to keep in mind she's a clever woman, she has been working with telemarket issues so she's also a trained lawyer on the particular issue because we have, of course, focused on two issues that we think are remarkably strange with the [unclear 31:02] snus. First, it's why we are making a traditional good quality product. We are not allowed to sell it with everything else. So that's the internal market perspective. Then we have, of course, the health issue that we have seen that snus has had.
So those are the two lines that we argue from, health and internal market. And, as you know, the directive, with the new tobacco directive is to improve health and improve the movement of internal market. Snus actually fulfils both of those [unclear 31:36].
But it was mainly for the internal market issues, as I knew, and also discussing with her do you have any idea what can we do, and she said well I will think about it. Then she came back with the very clear contact me with the consultancy contract, which we have registered everything, we have paid, they virtually said four five thousand euros. She has eight points that she can do.
She would like to have training more on the scientific of the snus issue. She studied herself the internal market perspectives of it, also studied the 2004 case where Swedish Match challenged the ban in the court. She was going to see if there was a possibility to find out if the Commissioner knew anything about snus. Was he aware that this product exist, that it's a part of the [unclear 32:39] of the new directive? Does he know what he is going to take for us a fatal decision about or does he just doesn't care?
So this was -‐ and it's quite a detailed contract, four or five thousand, this particular one.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Did your company know the framework of the WHO in the article [unclear 33:06] that it's impossible to create the condition to attract, for example, a commissioner in that kind of meeting outside of the framework?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But we didn’t expect it to be outside.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, we had no...
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[Overspeaking 33:20]
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: ...commissioner, wherever he is, and...
Johann Gabrielsson: And it was not in the contract that they were supposed to meet in Malta or anywhere else. It was very clear what -‐ and it was not even we didn't know at the time if he was going to meet him. It was rather to try to find out whether maybe that was not discussed.
José Bové: But the meeting happened.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But he should have registered it. I wouldn't have -‐ I mean of course we...
Johann Gabrielsson: We never said we want any secret meetings. We don't want...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Don't tell anyone.
José Bové: That I believe. This I really can believe you, but, so okay, for that I think we completely agree on this story.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah.
José Bové: There is a point I think which is not true and this is what Mrs Kimberley said last week. Mr Dalli was not in the second meeting.
Johann Gabrielsson: I can -‐ if you want to I can tell you the story. I know that she wasn't in, I know she wasn't in the second meeting, but that I found out when OLAF told me.
José Bové: So you know now.
Johann Gabrielsson: Now I know because...
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: [Unclear 34:33] in the second meetings. When did you?
Johann Gabrielsson: OLAF. OLAF told you.
José Bové: That she was not in.
Johann Gabrielsson: That she was not in, because the story I was told when I came to Malta on 13th of February, when I talked to Gayle and also when she called me on the 10th of February, she lied to me. She said to me that she had been in the meeting. And also when I met with Gayle in Peppi's when everything was explained to me, which was of course a complete shock.
José Bové: Yeah, I can believe. 16 people there. You say that's a brave man.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, but I am very dedicated to what I'm doing. I believe in this. I do think we have a case, that we are unfair treated, and sitting there and understanding this is my money. This has nothing to do with what
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people think or believe in or -‐ it's actually just a question of cashing up, and everything just fell off. What am I working for? What am I really doing and what is -‐ and it was a terrible shock.
José Bové: Yeah, I could believe. But the problem is that...
Johann Gabrielsson: So...
José Bové: Well you I can understand. You come back to Stockholm and you say what is this about, these people are completely crazy and so you go after that and you say to OLAF...
Johann Gabrielsson: No, what happened. I wanted to explain why she was not in the meeting. When I met them, I first met Gayle alone in the Peppi's where she explained what it was all about. She said I was at the meeting, you should be surprised to hear that the Commissioner has studied the case well, he understand that you have the science on your side, you have the legal arguments on your side, but this is a political question and this is a question of emotions and this is someone who has to take a fight for it, this is someone who has to stand up and scream and make noise and shout otherwise no one will give a damn because it [unclear 36:55].
But you do have, and he said, he had said also clearly, don't forget what I did in the [unclear 37:04]. I can steer a process in the right direction very strongly.
José Bové: I know, because I was in front of him.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And he bulldozed you.
José Bové: We win at the end because we made the...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: [Unclear 37:17]
José Bové: And [Mrs Benatti] with the [unclear 37:18] president which has the conflict of interest. This was my first fight and the first time I met Mr Dalli on the issue of GMOs and the conflict of interest. So that's why I know when he has an idea I can accept even though I don't agree, but we had a fight and so we knew that way. So I know that this kind of things he can say.
Johann Gabrielsson: So this was brought up, both Gayle wrote it in her first report after the first meeting. Already then Dalli had stated that he can, if he feels that he has the right conditions or even right environment and he believes in it and he has the science on his side, he can pick a fight.
So this Gayle told me in the restaurant, that, but then she had been asked to leave the meeting, or if Dalli had gone out, I don't know, and then Zammit had told her that Dalli wants to be compensated for this,
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his political career might be over if he comes out, even he has the science and everything on his side, he might come out as a tobacco friend and his political career is over and he wants to be compensated.
So then I was alone with Gayle in the restaurant when she told me this story. And she never mentioned the figure. I could see on her that she knew how much it was all about. That was very clear, but she didn't mention it and I believe she was a little bit embarrassed about how much money it was actually about.
And at this moment Mr Zammit came in to the restaurant. He told the same story with other words. He was happy and smiling.
José Bové: That's when he asked to give you a pill?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, or offering me heart medicine to be prepared for, and then he told me the Commissioner wants US$60 million. And he confirmed the whole story that Gayle had told me, that Gayle had been in the meeting. So I was told...
José Bové: By two.
Johann Gabrielsson: By two persons and also she told me on the phone on the Friday so I had heard it three times.
So this was what I reported. This was the -‐ because that was the story that I had been told because I never met. This was the first time I met this Mr Zammit. I had never met Dalli. It was never, and it was only in the, during the long, long investigations with OLAF that I have been sitting through that suddenly they told me do you know that Gayle was not in the second meeting.
And that was another shock for me because...
José Bové: OLAF was aware of that when they [unclear 40:19]?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, they had clearly in their investigations...
José Bové: This was at what moment? Because the investigation begin in May.
Johann Gabrielsson: I don't know. I don't really -‐ I met with OLAF maybe three times and it was not the first time. So it was not when the investigations started. It must have been maybe...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: [Unclear 40:39]
Johann Gabrielsson: It was also -‐ I mean they of course wanted to make sure that I was not lying. They were not...
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: But in fact you are saying the same thing as Mr Dalli.
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Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, and Gayle also, that she was not there in the second meeting, yeah.
José Bové: But she didn't -‐ now she said it. Last week we see this now, clearly, but before she always say...
Johann Gabrielsson: No, I have no idea if she has kept to that story. I have no idea, because I haven't been in touch with her. I don't know.
José Bové: I think it's better.
Johann Gabrielsson: The only thing I know, I found out, was told by OLAF that she had [unclear 41:25].
José Bové: Because you know that this is of course is a real problem because in the report of OLAF this is clearly mentioned that there was only one meeting where everybody agrees that they were together. This was the first meeting they were talking about. They made that decision getting out, pushing out Mr Dalli was only on this one meeting.
Johann Gabrielsson: I have no idea.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Was it a story that she wasn't present at that meeting?
Johann Gabrielsson: I don't know either. I mean I wasn't there. I haven't -‐ it makes no sense to me. But what I've heard is that she came to the meeting but she was not allowed into the office. So it was a planned meeting and when she came there she had to wait outside.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: And she did then met...
José Bové: Mr Dalli at that moment. We're not going to go on further. I think it's important you have this discussion because of course once Swedish Match put on all this thing in front of OLAF and you were right to do it, I'm not saying that you were not right to put, to say okay, people are asking me $60 million now to buy us to make the, to change, to try to...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I think it's important that [unclear 43:07] came back with this story, we were of course what are we doing now, what should we do?
José Bové: Go directly to the court.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah, should we report it, should we just believe it's a joke or what do we do?
Johann Gabrielsson: Is anyone going to believe us?
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: You waited quite a long time to alert the Swedish authorities.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: No, we took it to the Swedish authorities.
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Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Immediately?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, it was three...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Three days after, I think. I don't remember. I think it's in the chronology. So we reported it and the Swedish Government's like I don't want to hear this, but it's good that you tell us.
But I think what we did, first, I think [unclear 43:48] and you, we sort of argued no one is going to believe us anyway so we just pretend that this is a joke and we don't have any evidence.
Johann Gabrielsson: We didn't record anything [unclear 43:59] a guy from Swedish Match, I said why should anyone believe me. It was nothing.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But we believed it was credible.
Johann Gabrielsson: I was sitting there. For me it's of course very credible.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Because this pizzeria, we had so much information about the process, and if you go down to [unclear 44:18], our local pizzeria, and you ask them about the process in Brussels they wouldn't know anything.
José Bové: Who gave him this information?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Well we think that...
Johann Gabrielsson: I'm not to tell anyone, we have never accused anyone or...
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: This report from Philip Morris can give him this information?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: It was commissioned internal information, where the process was, where it was going and meetings that are going to take place, et cetera, et cetera, with stakeholders. I don't know where this information come from but it was enough information for us to believe there could be something in it.
Johann Gabrielsson: It was enough information to make me convinced at the time that Dalli was behind it.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But you know what? We don't know. We don't know.
José Bové: That's why I think there's a [unclear 45:10].
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We hope for a fair trial for our product and we think Dalli should get the fair trial as well. Maybe it's just a bit -‐ this is of course a big mess but we hope that everything will be cleared up with the court situation in Malta and I hope that that OLAF report will be released. We have no idea what's in it, but it's apparently sufficient information for Mr Dalli to resign, whatever happen in that meeting.
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José Bové: We don't know.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We don't know.
José Bové: But for the moment we have to say that when we don't know it's incredible that this situation a few days after, by October, how the things went on so quickly. 30 minutes to get out and how [Mr Barosa 46:01] take this decision. Because if the only fact we have, for the moment the only one we know is this meeting with Mrs Kimberley. This is the only fact, the clear fact. That's the only fact.
If this is enough to put out Mr Dalli, Mr Baroso and Mrs [Day 46:23] have much more meetings with no [unclear 46:35]
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Transparency.
José Bové: With no transparency.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But have you in the parliament heard anything? We want that OLAF report to get out so we can...
José Bové: But that's why we're working and we are asking to make a special committee of the European Parliament on the transparency and to understand what happened, because there's a problem with OLAF, how the works went on, because this is the first time it's the case there. We meet there regularly, the investigations. So this is one problem, how it works. Second problem is how the Commission, Mr Baroso went in this stuff. So this is also a big problem, we don't understand how this went on, which is the role of Mrs Day. This is another problem and so on and so on.
So that's why in this moment I believe that you were really used and you didn't know. In French we say it's [spoken in French 47:37]. How can translate? It's not possible, but you have been the word for [spoken in French].
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: [Prove face 47:49].
José Bové: But you were completely under the real story and when you went to OLAF to say okay, this is our story and the investigation began, this was I believe what wanted other people. But you couldn't do anything else.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: No, when we...
José Bové: You had no capacity to do anything else. You have this so big story you cannot keep it to you.
[Overspeaking 48:21]
José Bové: I can accept this completely.
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Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: It's another important point also, because we didn't know what to do but then the offer came back, or this Mr Zammit contacted [Inga 48:32] from ESTOC, our trade association, and eventually he sort of extended the offer and when this happened we were like -‐ we hadn't told her anything about this. She didn't know. But when this happened, we realised that if people find out that we got this offer and didn't do anything it would be even worse.
José Bové: So he talked to people from ESTOC about the offer?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah, we kind of turned it down.
Johann Gabrielsson: Kind of? I don't know if it was kind of. I was quite clear already at the meeting in that because I told Mr Zammit in the meeting that I am a foot soldier, I don't take decisions, I don't negotiate, I will report to my boss about this conversation.
José Bové: That's good.
Johann Gabrielsson: But then I asked him are you interested in my personal point of view? He said yeah, of course. You have made a big mistake. This is not going to fall out well and I have no idea what actions will be take because of this conversation that I report, but you have made a big mistake and this is never going to be accepted.
Then he looked a little bit I would say puzzled and surprised and said what do you mean by that. 60 million is 20 per cent of your net profit last year and do you know how much the share price has gone up when there has been snus discussions in the European Union, because of course this discussion had only happened in Sweden, but that affected the share prices of Swedish Match. And he knew dates and when the share prices had gone up and how much they had gone up when there had been a statement from -‐ so he seemed puzzled just to that I so category could say that this is going to be no when this is good, actually very, very good business [unclear 50:47]. Okay, it's a lot of money but imagine what possibilities you have.
So it was in that position I left him in.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: When we turned it down, when Swedish Match turned down the offer, he searched contact with this lady from ESTOC that he had lunch with in Stockholm and he sent an email to her, or actually to the former chairman of ESTOC, I don't know. He sent it to the chairman of ESTOC. I have a good business proposition. It's probably [unclear 51:28]. I don't remember the exact wording. I have a good deal for you.
So Inga [unclear 51:34] because she didn't know anything about this and she said what is this all about and she asked for what are you proposing,
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what are you offering. That's funny because the day after he resigned, he sitting with this email in TV, in the media, which is an email conversation, an email thread between Inga and Silvio Zammit. And they say that oh look, this newspaper offered me money but it was a private conversation where she tried to understand previously in that conversation what he could offer, why he had any contact.
And then we learned, our boss learned that he had been offering this money and he goes oh God no, we need to do something now because we, first of all, if this spreads and we don't do anything, we're a Swedish company, we need to -‐ and that's where when you and our chief legal officer in the company and you just got all the evidence we had and send it to Catherine Day. There you go, we are reporting something, we don't know what it is, but this is what...
José Bové: So it was Catherine Day who received all the?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We sent it to her.
Johann Gabrielsson: But that also took quite some time because when the legal counsels in Stockholm say what are we going to with this now, because somehow we just want to get it off our table, but who are we sending this too. Are we sending it to the Swedish [unclear 53:09], are we sending it to Maltese, are we contacting the European Parliament was also discussed and asked if should we just give this, maybe to the European Parliament is the right forum for taking this forward, just inform. Maybe the European Parliament could have done a proper investigation on Mr Dalli or whatever. Do we go to OLAF directly?
Then we got the, well I don't know from whom, but it was in Stockholm and we were not involved. They said no, inform the European Commission about what had happened. So we didn't charge anyone, we didn't say listen, this has happened to us, we don't know if it's true, but we think it's a good idea that you are aware that there is someone in Malta saying that he is representing Dalli, one of your Commissioner, that legislation is for sale. That was it.
Then immediately Catherine Day, more or less within 24 hours, sent it to OLAF.
José Bové: That was in May?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: That was in May, yeah.
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Johann Gabrielsson: Then started the investigation and OLAF clearly took it very seriously from the beginning and, as I said, OLAF staff, me and two others were long meetings on several occasions. Then nothing happened.
I personally at the time was convinced that OLAF was just going to come out with saying something that no proof, nothing, believe this, put this in a cupboard, this is it. But we were not informed. We didn't hear anything. Then two days before the 16th or the 15th of October when the press...
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Two days before, or one?
Johann Gabrielsson: I don't remember.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I think it...
Johann Gabrielsson: It was the day before the press release.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Someone from OLAF called our legal guy I think on the Monday evening. This was on the Wednesday I think.
José Bové: Yeah, the Wednesday, the 16th.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: The 16, and he said that you -‐ no, it was on the Tuesday.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, it was two days but he said we're going to have a press conference on the 16th, be prepared that you might...
José Bové: Have to answer.
Johann Gabrielsson: Have to have, but they didn't say what the consequences or any...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Be prepared.
Johann Gabrielsson: Be prepared, I want to say, so he didn't know anything before the press release. The only thing was that we are going to be mentioned and you...
José Bové: [Unclear 55:47] know that you exist.
Johann Gabrielsson: And then all hell broke loose.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: It should have been very difficult for you.
Johann Gabrielsson: Of course it has. It's been terrible.
José Bové: Now it's more difficult now to come back in the debate.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yes, yes, yes, no one cares about, everyone thinks that it's either that we were behind it or that we were trapped by someone.
Johann Gabrielsson: Or we are idiots or we are whatever.
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José Bové: But who could have used you.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, but I would say that...
José Bové: I believe. I have my idea about you.
Johann Gabrielsson: I personally, my personal point of view is that we have not been used. There is one explanation that takes away all the conspiracy theories and that is that OLAF have found sufficient amount of evidence that Dalli was behind this.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Or was aware and didn't react.
Johann Gabrielsson: That's my personal opinion. I don't know if you read the British version, the [unclear 56:53] version of [unclear].
José Bové: Yes.
Johann Gabrielsson: There comes for me information that I had not known, but when he says that OLAF has email traffic between Zammit and Dalli where Zammit is informing Dalli about the progress of what's happening.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I think he makes an interesting observation towards them with this. Mr Dalli has sued the Commission, he sued us for defamation even though we haven't heard anything from the court system here, but he hasn't sued Silvio Zammit who extended the offer to us in Mr Dalli's name.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: So why doesn't he sue Zammit, the person who clearly put him in this shit?
José Bové: The answer is maybe, I don't know, no one knows so I try to understand. You were saying, and that's true that Malta's a very small country and the families know themself and inside the families are also the two parties and there was a big one, which was the Nationalist Party which was all the government, the president and so on, and Mr Zammit was also in the Nationalist Party and he was linked clearly.
But also, there is Mrs Kimberley, so these were people who know themself very well since a long time and so it's not difficult to say okay, now there's a meeting and so on and it goes very quick and it's not a problem for them to meet. I'm not sure that Mr Dalli at that moment understood that there's going to be a problem.
So I think that's a beginning. So exist, there's some mails exist between Zammit and Dalli saying okay, I ask this money and I help you to get this money to get out of politics. If this exist and if Mr Dalli did not say anything about that...
Johann Gabrielsson: He's finished.
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José Bové: He's made a big mistake and it's finished for him and he is politically wrong. But, for the moment, the thing which was put on the table by OLAF as the biggest problem was the meeting with Mrs Kimberley and the fact that there were two meetings.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, that's not true, because Baroso clearly said, or [unclear 59:22] said, we have clear proof that Dalli was aware of what Zammit was doing. That's what they said. He's not referring to the meetings. He's just saying simply we have clear proof that Dalli was aware of Zammit's actions.
José Bové: So it depends, the two things, because one of the main, and this was in the debate in the parliament when there was to the [unclear 59:51] made questions to the Commissioner. It's clearly saying the most important thing is the fact that Mr Dalli went against the rule of the WHO.
Johann Gabrielsson: But that was never said by Baroso and [Kessler 60:09]. They have never mentioned it.
José Bové: [Unclear 60:10] didn't.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, no, at the press conference the only thing that Kessler and Baroso referred to was that there's clear proof that Dalli was aware that Zammit was trying to sell legislation. That is clear.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: In the name of...
Johann Gabrielsson: In the name of [unclear 60:25], and there was never reference to any inconsistencies concerning contacts with the industry. That was not the...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: They were told the second meeting, that she wasn't part of the second meeting. They told...
[Overspeaking 60:46]
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: They never said [unclear 60:51] two meetings.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: They never said that?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: No, because they told you...
Johann Gabrielsson: They were aware of that before the -‐ that's in the report. It's in report that there was only one meeting.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: They asked you why you said that Gayle met with Dalli when they knew...
Johann Gabrielsson: Exactly.
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Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: ...that she didn't.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, because they started to, because how do you know that Gayle was present and then I told them exactly what I told you, because she told me on the phone and she told me...
José Bové: In January you were in here in the parliament on the 10th of January. There was a meeting, no?
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: It was the meeting organised by [unclear 61:41].
Johann Gabrielsson: Yes, yes.
José Bové: You were in this meeting, Jean-‐Marc...
Johann Gabrielsson: That's when we met.
José Bové: That's where you met first time and during the meeting Jean-‐Marc told me that you said that there was two times.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yes, I told them, I told the story from my perspective.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: So in January you still didn't know.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, in January I knew.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But we...
José Bové: So why did you say it? Why did you say...
Johann Gabrielsson: At that time we had been told to keep, by OLAF, that there is an investigation going on in Malta, the rest of it, so certain...
José Bové: So keep your version.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, tell what you have said to us and what is your version because there is a Maltese criminal investigation and that should not be disturbed.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: So OLAF say to you to keep saying...
Johann Gabrielsson: They said like this, we can't give you any orders how you, because you have done nothing wrong in this, but we have done an investigation, there is Maltese investigations, it would be preferably that this is not disturbed and this will definitely not help certain things that come out.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And this is what the Maltese police told you as well.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, the Maltese police also told me that.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Maltese police.
José Bové: But secretly.
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Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Three bad cops apparently.
José Bové: This is quite incredible.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, it's not incredible. I mean it was my choice to tell...
José Bové: Because why I say that, because I was quite often in front of police [unclear 63:13] for justice and so on, so when things are changing the first thing you have to say is clearly I have been put in a mistake and I thought that was true, but now I can clearly say it's not because the investigators know that clearly in Malta. So they knew it, OLAF knew it also, so what was the problem for you...
Johann Gabrielsson: To be frank with you, I don't remember that they pointed out this situation clearly. They just said that please be careful with how you actually deal with the information, please try to not disturb. I knew the story that I had believed and thought was true had already been out more or less official. So that was the reason why I took the decision that I tell what. I'm quite sure they never told me exactly don't ever mention that [unclear 64:14] second meeting. That was not the case.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But it's also we can only tell the story how we...
Johann Gabrielsson: How I lived it.
José Bové: That's very true.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And we reported, what Swedish Match reported was a story where we actually thought that there were two meetings.
Johann Gabrielsson: That was in the report to Catherine Day because it was...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: This is what Gayle has told you.
José Bové: Yeah, and you believed in her.
Johann Gabrielsson: Of course I did. I had no...
José Bové: At first. She was the one who lied, her story. So that took a lot of importance for Mr Dalli in his defence. So maybe he is trying to put this on the top because the other part of the story is not very good for him.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yes, of course. Of course.
José Bové: This can be an answer, or the second thing is that there is nothing else and this is for him the best way to get out of this problem, but the problem is that he may be [unclear 65:15] that's what I read in the newspaper in Mariana. He wants to put you in front of the court for saying that you lie saying there was two meetings.
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Johann Gabrielsson: I never lied. I just said what I had been told. That's not a lie.
José Bové: No, that's right. That's why I read in the newspaper, so I believe that this is what he wants to do now. But you have now, you answer very clearly so I understand the story.
But, in fact, now Swedish Match, I don't know how it, it's going to be more and more difficult to bring the debate because now the directive is on the table of the parliament.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And it's awful.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: It's awful.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: It's tabled to make [unclear 66:06] for snuff now.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah, got any advice?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, if you have any advice.
José Bové: Because when you come to meet somebody and say okay, we are Swedish Match, people are going to be afraid, saying this is the beginning of the mess.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: It's been problematic. We took the initiative to meet with [unclear 66:28] control committee and we went there, which was a very scary experience I have to say. We came there and thought...
Johann Gabrielsson: Don't forget that it was we contacting them.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: [Unclear 66:39] our side of the story and it was the [unclear 66:41] meeting and it was 50 people around and we...
Johann Gabrielsson: Very hostile atmosphere even though we were the one -‐ we just wanted to tell you what we are being telling, that we are maybe naive Swedes, we are transparent, we have been doing our things, we ended up in this shit. We had thought maybe the focus would be a little bit more on corruption issues than on how [unclear 67:08] all communication is, but no. Corruption has not been, are there high politicians out there selling legislation? This has not been discussed.
It has been discussed that we as a small company trying to act transparent has messed up.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And then, because there are some members in the [unclear 67:27] control committee that is pursuing us, I get the feeling, and we have tried to be transparent but they -‐ at one point we just felt that everything we tell them is being washed in one way or another and put
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in the media. We think that this discussion merits a serious discussion between us, between the Commission and OLAF and the legislators of the parliament, merits a good discussion.
If this is going to be turned into a media circus we don't want any part of that and we have tried a number of times to have a constructive dialogue with Mr [unclear 68:05] to talk about we have complied with everything you asked for, but can you please allow us to understand what your process is, what's our obligations are. Because everything we said and did ended up in the media.
Johann Gabrielsson: Everything we say, when I had personal meeting with Kessler, we sent letters, the day after it was in the media. Is that a serious way of trying to find out what's -‐ and I even was very...
José Bové: Well you know, the parliament they don't care about Swedish Match.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, exactly.
José Bové: The problem, some people want to fight OLAF, other want to know how the Commission is working and how the links are with the big companies. In this moment it's tobacco but could be other ones, pesticides or other ones. So there's a real problem of conflict of interest and transparency in all the European institutions. So this is really a big mess.
The same time you saw this problem, this new problem, so that's why it's getting bigger and bigger every day. The problem we have with another old member of the European institution, with Mr [Petite], you heard about it?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
José Bové: Which is now working on further commissioners to find the good way to work and blah-‐blah.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Ethic committee.
José Bové: Ethic committees, but he went out of the institution, cabinet lawyer and working for Philip Morris. So each time a new step is going up, up and up and people, of course, in this parliament want to understand.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I know and I appreciate that and we...
José Bové: Sell their souls.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We also want to understand.
José Bové: But you are in the bad place because, of course, it will not be possible for, because it's clear for me that I think most of the parliamenters, the
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Swedish parliamenters, are going to try to help you because this is cultural.
Johann Gabrielsson: Not only cultural, I think they also...
José Bové: I can understand.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: It's fair.
José Bové: It's fair for them because they believe in it and they understand and they knew that this is a part of their story also. So I think, but it's not going to be because now if snus is put in the directives saying okay snus can be sold everywhere, that means that the end of the story you're saying well Swedish Match made this job only to be sure that they could be put on the market. It's terrible.
Johann Gabrielsson: That's terrible. It's a catch 22 situation.
José Bové: For you it's terrible because on one side or the other you will still be in the bad situation.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Can I ask you question? Do you think, I mean you know problems and we recognise them, maybe we shouldn't have reported it. Maybe we should just have forgotten about it and just said we don't know what you're talking about.
José Bové: No, I believe you had to do it.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We had to do it.
José Bové: I think it's very important what you did. Maybe this story was used by other people, for the moment I'm not able to say clearly who wanted to do it, but the fact is that this was useful for some people. Why? For the moment it's not possible. Clear the parliament is not able to investigate on our situation. We don't have the OLAF report. This is completely incredible. So this is...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Mr [unclear 71:49] has a copy already.
José Bové: But for the moment is has not been put in, all the presidents want to have the investigation, to be able to read it and to be able to take out the story. It's not going to be published, of course, but...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: To understand.
José Bové: We have to understand.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I've heard that he has a copy in his safe. I don't know if it's true.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Nobody wants to read it, it seems, also.
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Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But he has read it, or I read that the legal service [unclear 72:22] have read it, but I don't know. I read so much.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, I'm just a little tobacco lobbyist. How could I know?
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I think, for us, we believe in what we're doing. We have to work and try to, we hope that we will make a difference with our events because we have a really, really good case. If it doesn't work this time, we'll come back in 10 years and we can sit there and I can tell you about snus statistics.
Johann Gabrielsson: And you will see in 10 years that in Sweden no one is smoking and everyone in Europe is smoking all the same.
José Bové: So the Finland are very angry also. Maybe you can have some help from people from Finland.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Yeah, they use it. The Finland [unclear 73:09] they closed three traditional old, really old companies producing snus.
Johann Gabrielsson: That were 200 years old and been producing snus for the Finns.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Closed.
Johann Gabrielsson: This is traditional product. Just because you're going to be part of the European Union where, no.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: And the poor Danish, they believed that they could sell this in loose form. Those poor Danes are getting it now so the Commission's starting an infringement procedure against the Danish loose snus manufacturers and they're going to shut down.
Johann Gabrielsson: They're all small, very small companies, family owned and traditional.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: 50,000 Danish people use it. Mostly old people.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: When you make invention, Swedish Match, the same as Philip Morris International, I think the [unclear 74:03], how you say that in English, the projection concerning the market, the European market for business.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: If I understand the JV correctly...
Johann Gabrielsson: It's a very separate part from Swedish Match. We are not involved at all in really what they are doing, at least not -‐ we are so closed off, and it has nothing to do with Europe. There are no market plans or anything.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: I thought it was a 50:50 share on the European market.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: No, no, no.
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Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Between Philip Morris and the Swedish Match.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: No, what I understand from the JV, and we should probably check this, but...
Johann Gabrielsson: If you're interested, I can get more information.
José Bové: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the more information we have, the better.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: The JV's not engaged in Europe, EU, because it's illegal to sell here.
Johann Gabrielsson: Yes, and there's no business plans that I know. There's no calculations on the market.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: So what they're doing is, we provide a product and you, Philip Morris, put it on the market in, but...
Johann Gabrielsson: I think it's very important to say that Swedish Match has tried. As we are excluded from our home market, our home market is the European Union but we are not to be there, so as any company we would like to expand, of course. But that has been, of course, I think we have tried in some countries but it doesn't take off really. We tried in South Africa.
So this is my take on it, I will study more, I will send you more information, is that...
José Bové: Maybe Australia.
Johann Gabrielsson: No, Australia is banned also.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: In South Africa, Philip Morris bought a Swedish Match company in South Africa in 2009.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Did they?
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Yeah, in September.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: You know more than I. We used to have snus, matches and all of that and cigars. Cigars. We had cigars and pipe tobacco [unclear 76:09] and we sold most of the cigars, pipe tobacco, cigarette [unclear 76:14] to another company in 2009 or '10 and maybe one deal where we sold the smoking was in South Africa to Philip Morris, but most of the asset in the cigar, pipe tobacco, cigarillo field we sold to Scandinavian Tobacco in Denmark. We still own a part of that company but they do mostly it's premium cigars and this cigarillos. We had a large manufacturing in The Netherlands actually.
Johann Gabrielsson: I think we shouldn't talk too much about that, but there is information about it there. We would like to provide you with what's going on, but
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clearly the JV was a strategy to, I think created for Swedish Match said they need help to find other markets.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Other legal markets.
Johann Gabrielsson: Other legal markets outside and what they are having, they have a project in Russia with a JV but it doesn't go well.
José Bové: China.
Johann Gabrielsson: Taiwan.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: [Unclear 77:29] get into China [unclear 77:31] Chinese tobacco market just swallows you.
José Bové: Taiwan okay?
Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, but Taiwan, it didn't work out...
José Bové: Another bad experience then.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Everything we touch goes to ashes, but we can find out more about the JV.
Johann Gabrielsson: Absolutely.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: But I think it's mostly to get some muscles behind the products so that the deal is we provide a product and they are supposed, with their marketing people, to put it on the market. Maybe it's difficult to communicate this product in Taiwan, to tell...
Johann Gabrielsson: Especially if it's done by cigarette people. What I think is wrong with the JV, I want this to become a huge global success but the JV people do not understand this. They are cigarette people. They don't understand and we are not cigarette people. We are so far, we are actually, can't say this officially but we are anti cigarettes. We do believe that this is a very, very good means to...
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: For a concept at least it's better than cigarettes.
Johann Gabrielsson: Absolutely.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Much dangerous.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: 95 to 99 per cent.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: It's clear you find scientific proof.
José Bové: But the best is pipe for that.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: When you get tired, we have the product for you. When you can't smoke.
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Johann Gabrielsson: Yeah, in plane for example, allow you to...
José Bové: When I am not allowed, I don't smoke.
Johann Gabrielsson: You have a strong character.
José Bové: I know it so it's not a problem. Many years from now we could smoke in planes.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: I remember.
Johann Gabrielsson: I used to work for the United Nations before I joined the Commission and that time I had a Greek colleague who smoked heavily and this was in the beginning of 2000. That was at the time when you stopped smoking in planes. When he had to fly anywhere in the world, he had to fly Turkish Airlines because they were the only ones allowed. So it didn't matter. It could be 36 hours flight that normally could go in 12, just so he could sit there.
José Bové: Maybe he was afraid in planes. Okay.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Okay, thank you very much for your time.
José Bové: Thank you. No, no, I think it was a pleasure. It was good to discuss like this. We are clear.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: If there is any more follow up...
José Bové: Yeah, yeah, okay.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: Answer them as to the best of our ability.
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Just if we could somehow -‐ it would have been very nice to meet you if this Dalli thing would not have happened where we actually could have an interesting discussion. I know you're a great friend of good traditional products and actually this...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: We're quite proud of our product.
Johann Gabrielsson: It's actually like a national dilemma or sadness for the Swedes. It's something that they're proud of, they think that there is...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: People say it's like banning French wine but only allow Finnish vodka. People don't get it through their heads. They don't get it.
José Bové: If European Union says in some years that it could happen, they are going to ban foie gras...
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: You know what? I would fight with you.
Johann Gabrielsson: I'm there.
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José Bové: Problem is, foie gras is so good for health.
[Overspeaking 81:04]
Jean-‐Marc Desfilhes: Everything is recorded.
José Bové: That's why I say it. I can understand this clearly.
Johann Gabrielsson: Maybe in 10 years then, we'll...
José Bové: I hope I'm not going to be here in 10 years.
Cecilia Kindstrand-‐Isaksson: If you're here we'll hunt you down.