This is an interview with Herman P. Landrock for In the Age of Steel: Oral Histories from Bethlehem Pennsylvania. The interview was conducted by Roger D. Simon on November 4, 1974 in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Simon: Interview with Herman Landrock, 11/4/74, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Tell me how you first came to work for the

company. Landrock: Well, I arrived in New York in 1906, July 1906, and, of course, the first few days in New York I didn’t look around for

work until I saw a piece in the German paper where Bethlehem Steel Company, who then had an office on Nassau Street [New York, New York], was looking for experienced mechanics. I had learned my trade in the Krupp plant1. That was at that time the biggest ordnance plant in the world, I think.

Simon: Where was that? Landrock: Essen [Germany]. That’s where I served my apprenticeship. Of course, then when I came over here and saw the ad for

Bethlehem Steel wanting men, I applied at their office. When they found that I served apprenticeship in the Krupp plant, I was hired on the spot. They gave me then with eight other fellows that we were hired tickets to Bethlehem here. So on November 15, 1906, I arrived in Bethlehem here, and that was down at the old Lehigh Valley station2, which we used to call Noah’s Ark. It was a very dismal rainy evening, and when we got off the train and stood on the platform, boys looked around and said, ‘What kind of a dump did we get into here?’ So they took a vote, and they decided to go back to New York. They didn’t want no part of the town.

Simon: Did you know these others that you were with? Landrock: No. Simon: Just on the train? Landrock: Just, right, just on the train. Well, they decided to sleep in the station till the next New York train comes along to go

back. One of the other fellows and myself, we just didn’t have enough money to get back, and so we decided we’d stay long enough till we get enough money to go back to New York. Well, I’m still here.

1 A German company famous for its steel production. 2 The Lehigh valley railroad was a railroad that was built in the northeastern United States whose main function was to haul anthracite coal.

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Simon: How old were you then, when you came here? Landrock: A little over 17. Simon: Why did you leave Germany? Landrock: Well, a number of things. First of all, I was in the compulsory service in the German Navy, and that is nothing to crow

about. So when I came over here, of course, we had shore leave, and I got lost in New York. Simon: You got lost in New York? Was it pretty unpleasant in the German Navy in those days? Landrock: It was. It’s a lot different than the American Navy. But the Army or Navy was quite a deal. In particular under the

emperor, it was a different system. So when I found I missed my boat, one of the cops down at Battery Park [New York, New York] said, ‘You want me to call there?’ There was about five or six of us that missed it, that had got back too late. So he said, ‘You want us to call the Coast Guard? They fly you out or get you out, or if you like to stay here, why, we can help you.’ Well, we all decided we’d like to stay here. I had nothing else over there. So he gave me an address in Glendale, Long Island, a friend of his who had a hotel, to go out and see him. ‘He’ll take care of it.’

So I went out to that place, a family named Lury (sp?), owned the National Hotel (inaudible) Long Island, Glendale,

and after I told him my story, he said, ‘Well, the best thing we can do, we go tomorrow morning over to the courthouse in Jamaica,’ which was the county seat of that, ‘and we see John Cressell3 (?),’ who was the borough president, ‘and we get you your first citizenship paper.’

So on my second day in New York, I got my first citizen paper. Then, of course, I helped around the hotel a little bit here and there to earn my keep for a couple weeks ‘til jobs turned up. When I saw that in New York, why, I went up and applied and got a job and shipped to Bethlehem. So on the 16th of November, the next day, with my little two bucks in my (inaudible), what I had accumulated, I walked in the plant. The first particular—first comical thing is I couldn’t talk a work of English. I had learned one word, but I wouldn’t say it on here. The ticket that they had given me was for Number 6 machine shop4. Well, I went over to Number 6 machine shop when I came in the plant. On the gate was a patrolman, a Bethlehem cop. They didn’t many then. But he was a big Austrian, and he looked just like

3 Project staff were unable to identify this person. 4 Refers to Coke Oven Battery No. 5 in which ovens were used for the conversion of coal into coke.

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(inaudible) (laughter) Steinberger (?). When he looked at my ticket, he says, ‘That big building over there, that’s Number Six.’ So I went over.

Well, I waited around about for an hour, and then finally a big tall fellow came along that told me he was the superintendent5. I understood afterwards his name was West. And he started jabbering in English to me, which I didn’t understand. So da-da-da-da he goes, and goes off. So one of the foremen came over who talked Pennsylvania Dutch6, and he says, ‘Well, he can’t talk to you, he can’t use you.’ So I was fired before I got started. So I went back out to the gate, and the old patrolman, he says, ‘What’s the matter?’ Because he talked Dutch to me and German. I told him, ‘That superintendent can’t talk to me, so he told me he’s got no job for me.’ He says, ‘I have another friend in here. I think he can use you.’ Wrote me out a slip and he says, ‘Now, you go down that alley that’s alongside Central Tool7, and the end where you hit the railroad tracks, turn right till you see a building with a loading platform. You go around that building and you see a little entrance in there, with some little (inaudible) piece in it.’ That’s what they had in the plant in those days, and I still have a picture of it that I took at that time later on when I was employed. And he says, ‘Give them this slip.’

So I went in the door. Young fellow there started talking English to me, and he says (Pennsylvania German phrase).

Yeh. He talked Pennsylvania Dutch. So he just yells back to the back room, ‘Hey, Dan, friend of yours to see you here.’ Out came a big tall fellow, black bowler hat, and he gave him the slip. He came over, he says, Sprechs (?) Deutsch [do you speak German] ‘Yes.’ ‘No English?’ ‘No.’ He looked over the tables, he says, ‘Where’d you learn your trade?’ I says, ‘Krupp in Essen.’ He goes, ‘Well, we want you.’ So he took me down to the Central Machine Shop where they worked on the guns, Navy guns. They worked on all sizes, one-pounders, three-pounders, five-pounders, three-inch, 75-millimeter, seven-inch naval landing guns, and nine-inch disappearing guns, and twelve-inch guns for the Argentine Navy for the three battleships they were building up in Boston that time. Put me on the job on a bench and gave me a job. Nobody said I was hired. The foreman8 that came there talked Dutch, and he said, ‘That’s your place here,’ at a bench with four fellows, two on that side, one over here, and this was Andy Weiss9 (?). He gave me a job, a firing lock for a twelve-inch gun, the parts for it. I got to fit all those things together, and he showed me a finished one, how it had to work.

5 A person in management charged with overseeing or directing an organization. 6 Refers to emigrants and the descendants of emigrants from southwestern Germany and Switzerland who settled in Pennsylvania in the 17th and 18th centuries. [link] 7 Manufactured all kinds of small tools, such as milling cutters, reamers, drills, punches, rivet sets, jigs, etc., principally for the use of the various Bethlehem plants and shipyards. 8 A workman who supervises a group of workers, especially in a factory. 9 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

Simon: A firing lock10. Landrock: The firing lock, yes, it goes inside a breech block11. It’s the thing that when it gets released, supposed to spring out and

fires the gun. Simon: This was put together by hand? Landrock: In those days, I had no jigs (inaudible). It was all laid out on layout tables, and then it was machined to the lines, which

were drawn in with a (inaudible) gauge. Then the other bench was fitted with files and scrapers to get together. Now he said to me, ‘Take all the time you want. This is your first job. If you do a good job, you got a job. If you don’t, why, you’re finished.’ I’d say the other three fellows around the bench, one was an Englishman, one was a Hungarian, the other one was a Jewish fellow. The Hungarian and the Jewish fellow spoke German, and they started explaining things to me and they helped me out with tools, which I didn’t have at that time for that particular job.

Simon: A man was supposed to have his own tools? Landrock: Oh, yes, in those days he did. The tools I had weren’t anywhere sufficient for it. I had a hacksaw, I had a chisel, a pair

of calipers, and a combination square, and that was it. That was (inaudible). So they watched me a little bit and gave me advice, helped me out with tools, and I worked about a week on that thing. In that week, nobody came near me, nobody told me I was hired, nobody told me what pay I was going to get. Even the timekeepers that went around, they passed me by.

Simon: Didn’t write down your name on a slip of paper or nothing? Landrock: Nothing. So when I had the piece finished, the other fellows on the bench, they tried it out and says, ‘That’s a good

job.’ So I took it over to the foreman I had. He tried it out and he whistled. He says, ‘Wait till Reese sees that.’ Reese was the general foreman, Reese Morgan12.

Simon: Reese Morgan? 10 A removable part of the firing mechanism in some weapons, incorporating the firing pin and the mechanism which drives it against the primer. [link] 11 The metal part that closes the breech end of the barrel of a breechloading gun and that is removed to insert a cartridge and replaced before firing. [link] 12 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

Landrock: Yes. His son later became superintendent of the shop. They’re both gone now. He looked at it, he whistled, he says,

‘What till Reese sees that.’ So he took it over and the general foreman and the assistant superintendent stood together there in a huddle and tried this thing out. Reese took the thing apart. He always smoked a cigar, took the cigar and popped the ashes in it and put it together again and kept on working it, took it out and blew it out and he got a smile from ear to ear. (inaudible). Reese spoke English, of course, and they translated for me, ‘He wants to see your tools.’

I opened up my little box, he looked through it, he said to him, ‘They’re good blacksmith tools. Get some decent tools

and you’re hired.’ So as it happened, one of those fellows, the Jewish fellow, he was representative for the (inaudible) committee. When a fellow on the bench beckoned me, an Englishman, he was Barton (?). He was the representative for the (inaudible) shop committee.

Simon: These are tool companies? Landrock: Tool companies. They got together and they made out a list of what I would need to begin with, a set of mics

[micrometers] up to two and three inches, at least, and tri-square, graduated scales, graduated to (inaudible) inch, a few other things. By the time they added this all up, it came to about $200, and I damn near fainted. I said, ‘I ain’t got no money.’ He said, ‘The boss says you’re hired. That’s all right. We get the tools, and every payday you can pay us one week him, the other week John (?), what you can afford. We’ll work it out.’ So they got me some tools, I’ve still got them in my box. In those days, you took care of yourself. So I was hired, and then the boss came over and says, ‘Why, it’s a (inaudible) job. We’re going to start you at the top rate, 22 cents an hour.’

Simon: Twenty-two cents an hour. Landrock: That was top. At that time, the rates were anywhere from 17 cents up to 25. So I started at 22 cents an hour, and the

same day, that afternoon, the timekeeper came along. ‘(inaudible)?’ ‘Yeh.’ ‘Okay.’ He said, ‘I’ll be checking on you every day.’ I was on the payroll then. So I worked on the bench pretty close to two years. From the bench they put me on the assembly on the floor fitting breach mechanisms together, putting firing locks in it and so on. Then in 1909, in the meantime, I had several raises and brought it up to 25 cents an hour, and in 1909 I got a promotion. It was my first foreman job in the plant, foreman of those big layout tables where they laid out. I was one of the few men that knew how to read and figure blueprints. Most of the boys here didn’t know it. Of course, over there we learned it in the Polytechnic Institute13, mechanics of figuring strengthening materials and making prints, making drawings to scale and

13 Likely refers to Virginia Polytechnic Institute which is a public university located in Blacksburg, Virginia.

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so on. There wasn’t very many there that do that. So I was made foreman. I had charge of four big tables, two men at each table, and that went on ‘til from there I started to take summer course, evening course, lessons at Lehigh14.

Simon: In engineering? Landrock: In engineering, yeh, because I couldn’t afford a semester there. Simon: Let me ask you a question here now. You were about 20 years old in 1909 and you were a foreman. Landrock: Yes. Simon: Were most of the men under you older than you were? Landrock: Oh, yes, all of them were older than I. Simon: Did they resent that? Did you feel uncomfortable? (recording paused) Landrock: So I was the foreman at the tables, and of course in my spare time, Lehigh gave summer courses and evening courses. I

took them in. I also took some of the Penn State15 special courses that (inaudible) have in ferrous metallurgy16. About two years later, the superintendent came down one day and he says, ‘I got a call from John (inaudible).’ That was the chief engineer. ‘He says he heard about you, you doing so good up there in school. He says he needs a few more draftsmen17. How would you like to go up there?’ (inaudible) what me to do, so I got in Engineering Department first as a tracer, making tracings. (inaudible) (recording paused)

Landrock: So I was put in the Ordnance Department18 up there, ordnance engineer. Jim Matusen19 (sp?) was the Chief of

Ordnance. First I was started on the bench in (inaudible) making tracings. Then they found out I had a good handwriting and they put me on lettering drawings. There only was hand labels, and a lot of those fellows made

14 Lehigh University is a private, four year university located in Bethlehem PA. 15 Penn State is a public research university with locations throughout Pennsylvania. 16 The science that deals with materials that have a great deal of iron in them. 17 Translates a designer's ideas into a finished picture using drawing and drafting skills. 18 Manufactured guns, shells, etc. for national defense. 19 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

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(inaudible) labels. So usually there was some half-decent (inaudible) lettering the (inaudible) drawings. That went on for a while, and then they put me in as detail, (inaudible), made sketches and drawings, (inaudible), had to work them out in scale or full size, whichever was required, and I was that for about a year in that.

In the meantime, I had joined the 8th Battery of the National Guard20, and when the First World War came along, why, off we went, first down to Texas and then went overseas. As a matter of fact, I had married in the meantime. I didn’t get overseas; I was kept here. But back in the engineering I went, and was transferred over to what used to be Brodhead the old shipbuilding21. I don’t know whether you remember that.

Simon: No, I don’t. Landrock: It’s where the Lehigh parking lot is now, (inaudible) High School. There used to be a big wooden building.

Shipbuilding, it was called, down to Bethlehem. That’s where they had the Ordnance Engineering Department. There I got in designing. First job that I was put on was designing a section of the 42-inch slabbing mill22 for Sparrows Point23. Each section (inaudible) man was given an assignment.

Simon: Is that your phone now? Landrock: No. So that went along until the First World War came along. One of the general superintendents24 of the plant was

looking for a number of men to go with him to establish a 75-millimeter gun plant in Rochester [NewYork]. Simon: Where? Landrock: Rochester. Simon: For Bethlehem Steel?

20 A reserve military force in which members are active but also hold civilian jobs. 21 This refers to the shipbuilding office owned by Bethlehem Steel that was located at the corner of Brodhead and Packer Avenue in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 22 A high-output rolling mill designed for the pressure shaping of large ingots weighing up to 45 tons into large, flat billets, called slabs. [link] 23 Located in Baltimore County, Maryland, this industrial complex owned by Bethlehem Steel was known for shipbuilding and steelmaking. 24 A person in management charged with overseeing or directing an organization.

Landrock: Yes. Well, the whole crew was Bethlehem Steel men, but they worked in the Bethlehem unit of the Navy. So a number of my men, including my foreman25, took the job and they wanted me to go along, so I went along. That’s when I left the Steel and went up to Rochester to the Symington-Anderson Company26. Anderson was the general foreman of the Bethlehem plant, and Symington was the father of the present Senator Symington27. He had a big gun contract for 75-millimeter guns.

So I was up there in Rochester about four or five years, and then one day one of the vice presidents came through and he said, ‘How’d you like to go back to Bethlehem?’ Well, my wife always had been homesick. She was a Bethlehem girl. They made me a good offer, a better offer than I had. Then they closed down and I came back to Bethlehem, and back in Engineering. That went on. From Engineering I got back in the plant again.

Simon: Where did you work in the plant? Landrock: Well, the last number of years I was Plating Engineer28 and (inaudible). I was all over the plant, from the (inaudible)

mills to the coke ovens29. Simon: It was in the 20’s [1920] that you came back? Landrock: In the late 20’s, ’28 [1928]. Simon: You’d been in Rochester all that time? Landrock: Yeh. Simon: Then when did you get back into plant operations? Landrock: In ’28 [1928].

25 A workman who supervises a group of workers, especially in a factory. 26 A steel plant located in Rochester, New York that was owned and operated by railroad magnate T.H. Symington and former Bethlehem Steel employee M.H. Anderson, who served as the company's vice-president. 27 Likely refers to William Stuart Symington who was a Democratic United States Senator from Missouri from 1953 to 1976. 28 Responsible for coating a material with a hard, non-porous substance in order to increase durability. 29 Ovens used for the conversion of coal into coke by heating the coal in the absence of air so as to distill the volatile ingredients.

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Simon: When you came back. Landrock: Then, of course, I held different jobs throughout the plant, Central Tool30. I (inaudible) plating operations (inaudible)

from MIT31. Started a pilot plant, then started a plating room down at the plant, and I was in charge of that when I retired.

Simon: The plating room? Landrock: Yes. Simon: When did you retire? Landrock: Fifty-nine [1959]. I was 70 then. Simon: At 70 in 1959. Landrock: Yes. Simon: How did the Depression affect you and the plant? Landrock: It never did. There were several strikes that I went through. I was one of the men that was constantly kept on. They

gave us—we were just locked in and we had minor assignments there, like watchmen and so on, to go to the different shops. Each one had an assignment there and see that everything was normal, no fire broke out, or nothing else. I always worked. The company paid me real fine. I never had to ask for a raise. They came along automatically. Promotions came along. When my boys finished and went in, they (inaudible) learned a trade down at the plant. I got them in. I told them, ‘Just remember one thing. The butter on your bread comes from the company, your paycheck. You may get orders you think are corny. If you have any doubts about it, talk to your superior. If he says that’s what they want, you better do it. You do that, the company will take care of you. You take care of the company.’ All of

30 Manufactured all kinds of small tools, such as milling cutters, reamers, drills, punches, rivet sets, jigs, etc., principally for the use of the various Bethlehem plants and shipyards. 31 The Massachusetts Institute of Technology is a private research institute located in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

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my sons are college graduates, one is now chief (inaudible) of the (inaudible) Division (inaudible), and the other one was (inaudible) Department (inaudible), and he retired last month.

Simon: No kidding. Thank goodness. Landrock: Yeh, went up to (inaudible), and he’s having the time of Riley. Simon: That’s great. That’s great. Landrock: But when I was in Polytechnic Institute (inaudible), the boss we had, he always used to tell us, ‘Never be idle. Idle

hand makes trouble.’ Besides that, the people that get ahead in life are the ones that keeping busy, not lay in bed sleeping. Another old foreman I had used to say, ‘Don’t (inaudible).’ And that’s the way we were brought up and that’s the way I’m going. That’s one reason (inaudible). I wouldn’t have to work, but I’d be dead and buried if I didn’t have that job. Keeps me going. We are busy.

Simon: I can see, yes. Do you think you could compare what it was like in the German Krupp Works with what it was like in

Bethlehem when you came? Landrock: That was a long while ago, you know. Simon: Sure. Landrock: At that time, the Krupp plant, in their systems, was ahead of what I found here in Bethlehem. Here they were still

laying out (inaudible) gauges and so on, (inaudible) when in Krupp already in my years when I was apprentice, why, they had jigs and fixtures made for certain parts that were mass produced, and it had to be fitted in there, and then they just were sent out or put in stock and they fitted no matter what or when. Now, when we built something here that was (inaudible) for a certain gun, fitted for a certain gun, you couldn’t exchange it with any other. Of course, now since those days, why, (inaudible) and so on (inaudible), but it’s made that one fits the whole line, but it wasn’t that way in 1906.

Simon: Were the salaries better in Krupp?

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Landrock: No. No, of course there was a big difference in the mark and the dollar. As a matter of fact, as apprentice, we didn’t get anything. The first year, my father had to pay so much.

Simon: So you could work there. Landrock: Yes. Simon: He worked there too? Landrock: No. He had his own job. He had to pay the first year. The second year, he didn’t have to pay anything, but we didn’t

get any salary as apprentice boys. The 3rd year, we used to get about what amounts to 25 cents a month. Simon: A month? Landrock: A month, yes. Of course, a quarter went a lot farther than here. Simon: But if you stayed, you don’t think you would have been making 22 cents an hour like you made when you started at

Bethlehem? Landrock: No, no. Even maybe years later. When I was young, some of my school chums that I went to school with, a couple of

them are alive yet, what I was making here in those days, $50 a week, earlier foreman days, why, which amounted in German marks about 200 marks, they were getting about 75 to 80 marks a month and they thought it was good. For the way the living was over there, it was.

Simon: In the German plant, I guess almost everybody was a German, but here you had the Hungarians and the Germans and

the English and Poles and such. Did that make it harder, do you think? Landrock: No. As a matter of fact, the acquaintances I made, everybody helped, and it made it easier. Over in the other country,

we had more of a caste system. The older ones were better than the younger ones, and the longer he was in the plant, no matter how ignorant he was, why, he was top dog. That’s the caste system over there.

Simon: Was there tension here between the different ethnic groups?

Landrock: There was no tensions over there. Simon: Tension. Tension. Here, between the Poles and the Pennsylvania Dutch32 or the English? Landrock: No. I never found that. I found in Number Two shop33, where I started, the (inaudible) Engineering Department,

nobody asked where you came from, what you were. I found things went very smoothly here, as long as you followed the rules. But I made quite a few friends because I joined, from the advice of one of my foremen, Masonic Order34, which I joined in 1912, and that’s been a big education to me.

Simon: You say on the advice of one of your foremen. Sort of to get ahead and meet good people or just for the fun? Landrock: To make the right kinds of acquaintances, yes. I sure did. It helped an awful lot wherever I went. I think it’s one of

the best moves I made in my life. Simon: Is that so? Landrock: Yes. Of course, we’re not talking about Masons here, but the objectives of Masonry, if you follow them, they’ll help

you in your conduct and conduct with your fellow men. I’ve made friends all over and I’ve been around quite a bit. So I have no regrets there. I’d do it over again. I’d work for the steel company again.

Simon: You put in a 12-hour day in those days, I guess. Landrock: In those days, well, we put in ten hours. Simon: Ten hours in your shop. Landrock: Yes. Over in Germany, we put in 12-hour days. Simon: In some departments here, didn’t they put in 12 in the furnaces? 32 Refers to emigrants and the descendants of emigrants from southwestern Germany and Switzerland who settled in Pennsylvania in the 17th and 18th centuries. 33 Built in 1890 and was the largest machine shop in Bethlehem Steel covering 363,290 square feet with 159 production machines. 34 This refers to the oldest fraternity in the world. It was known for being particularly secretive.

Landrock: Yes, that was in the furnaces and the rolling mills and (inaudible). But in machine shop, we had ten-hour days, and in years it came down to eight a day.

Simon: Did you feel things changed a lot after the union came in? Landrock: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Shut it off. Simon: You don’t want to— Landrock: No. (recording paused) Landrock: I had money, and one of the landlords where I was boarding then— Simon: You went to a boarding house when you first came. Landrock: It was recommended by the old (inaudible) down there, who I should see. Well, he took me down to (inaudible) store.

(Inaudible). You know (inaudible). Simon: Yes. Landrock: Well, old man (inaudible) he was a real honest-to-goodness gentleman. So he asked me where I was born, when I had

come over, what I was doing, and then he says, ‘All right. We will fit you with a suit, underwear, shirts, socks, collar, tie, hat, whatever you need. I will give you a slip to a friend of mine for shoes,’ which was to Alexi’s. And believe it or not, that was 1906. The suit was $15 and it was a very good suit. I wore it for a few years. Shirts, underwear, collars, everything came to not quite $5, and the first pair of shoes I got were $2.50 for a pair of Oxfords, and they lasted quite a while. Nowadays, you got to pay $25 for a pair of shoes and they go to pieces in six to nine months, most of them, and the shoe you wouldn’t even resole them.

Simon: Did you live in a rooming house until you got married? Landrock: Yes. Yes, I first lived,, for the, Adams Street, Adams and 4th Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. But later on, down the

plant there were a couple of men, couple of boys, they were apprentices that worked in the same department where I

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was, and one of them says, ‘Why don’t you come out to us? We have extra bedroom. I think my mother would like that too.’ Her name was Hope, and he was a weighmaster in that little station underneath the 4th Street Bridge.

Simon: Weighmaster35? Landrock: Yeh, for the company. So I went out there and I got a room with them. They had two boys that were about my age and

so on and it was out on the heights on East 3rd Street. I was living out there for a number of years till I got acquainted with the girl that’s now my wife. My brother, my younger brother, he came to Bethlehem and we had him come after I was over a while.

Simon: Did you send him money? Landrock: I sent him money, yes. I got him a job down at Steel and he got in the Electrical Department. Of course, he used to

board same way, he got the family to board with, men that worked in the Electrical Department with him. And that family had three boys, two of which worked down in the shop, one in Number Two shop36 and one in Number Six37, and two girls. When I used to see the brother, then, of course, I was (inaudible) and I took a shine to the girl and took her out a few times.

One day she said to me, ‘How about coming round to church tomorrow?’ (Inaudible). So they took me along to Fritz Memorial Methodist Church up on Packer and Montclair [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. They were all very friendly there, so next week I went again. The pastor came to see me, Reverend (inaudible), I liked it all right. ‘Want to join?’ I said, ‘I would like to, but, you see, I’m Lutheran.’ ‘Well,’ he says, ‘tell me something. Do the Lutherans have a different God than the Methodists have.’ Well, I said, ‘I don’t think so, I think there’s only one.’ ‘All right. If you believe in him, you can join an Affirmation of Faith.’ So I joined Fritz Church on an Affirmation of Faith. That girl was singing in the choir. We used to start going steady, and one nice day we got married, and last January we had our 60th wedding anniversary.

Simon: No kidding. 60. Landrock: And if I was 60 years younger and ready to get married again, I’d pick the same girl. I was lucky I got a good one. 35 Responsible for weighing the pieces put into the open heath furnace. 36 Built in 1890 and was the largest machine shop in BSCORP covering 363,290 square feet with 159 production machines. 37 Refers to Coke Oven Battery No. 5 in which ovens were used for the conversion of coal into coke.

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Simon: Terrific. Landrock: We have two boys doing well, bring them up right, never had trouble with them, so all I can say is the good Lord’s

been good to me and my family, and I have no regrets. Simon: Where did you live after you got married? Landrock: With the wife’s family first for a little while, and then when that deal in Rochester came along, then of course I went up

to Rochester (inaudible) and we went to Rochester. When we came back, we got our own room that we rented first, then we built a home and we’ve had our own home now for many years.

Simon: You’re still in that house? That’s your only home? Landrock: Well, not in the same one. We built a couple of them since. First we rented a couple, then we built one up on

Roosevelt Avenue [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. But in the wintertime on the hill when it was icy it was just too (inaudible). Also the car gave a lot of trouble. So we had them build a house down on Broadway [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania] right across from Laubach [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania] on the (inaudible) there, and we were there a number of years. As we got older, the Mrs., of course, she was getting tired of too much housework, so we decided we’d build one more. That’s the one we’re living in now, right up on the next corner here, 590 Frederick Street. We made that (inaudible) one floor.

Simon: That’s nice. Landrock: We’ve been in that house now sixteen years. We built it sixteen years ago, had it built. Simon: Let me go back to the plant a little bit. Did the technological changes make things a lot easier? You talked about the

stuff with the guns. Landrock: Oh, yes. Yes, that is one of the things, (inaudible) experience and technology. (Inaudible) Between what I learned at

Lehigh and Penn State and what I learned MIT from (inaudible), it always gave me more experience and better insight and (inaudible) promotion that I never had to look for or ask for. It just came along.

00:35:45

00:37:17

Simon: Did you feel when you had an idea for doing something more efficiently, you could pass it on? Was there a lot of incentive for that?

Landrock: There was, and I had quite a few developments made, especially during the Second World War here when I was Chief

Tool Engineer38 of the company in the Ordnance Division39. Quite a few ideas (inaudible) you see they’re the same, go ahead. (Inaudible) promotion. So, I can’t complain.

Simon: You were in the Plating Department? Landrock: The (inaudible) head of the Plating Department. I was the Head Plating Engineer. Simon: Was that alloy plating or what kind? Landrock: Everything. We plated copper, zinc, tin, standard (inaudible), hard industrial (inaudible). That hard industrial

(inaudible) was the (inaudible) process that was developed by Dr. (inaudible) at MIT, and he picked me out, I had a plan to do (inaudible). So I started a pilot plan, and then when that worked out, we picked the box (?) out and we started a plating booth, which is still in operation down there.

Simon: Was it harder to be a foreman recently than it was, you think, when you started? You were a foreman as early as 1909. Landrock: It’s tougher now. A foreman is a farce to the union because the union, the average union man, he can (inaudible) off

and get by with it, and if the foreman as much as raises his voice or (inaudible) the shop steward, they just (inaudible). The foreman really has damn little authority down there now. In our days, the foreman was really a foreman. (inaudible) what was going to be done was going to be done. But nowadays, you can’t even criticize a man for doing a wrong job or (inaudible). (Inaudible) go to the shop steward40 (inaudible) grievance committee you get up before a committee of superintendents and union members, with union men in and superintendents, you just get a dirty end of the stick. (Inaudible).

Simon: So it’s a lot harder to do. 38 Project staff were unable to identify this job. 39 Manufactured guns, shells, etc. for national defense. 40 A position held voluntarily in which an employee monitors and enforces agreements made by the union with management.

00:39:37

Landrock: Yes. Simon: What about the Second World War. Was that a hectic time? Was it a lot harder during the war? Landrock: No. I was in charge of tooling then, and it was my job to see that all the different shops that were in war operations

were supplied with the tools. No difficulties there. There was more people there, and, of course— Simon: Were there any women in your department during the war? Landrock: Yeh, they had quite a few there. Simon: Did that make it harder to— Landrock: It does. First of all, it cuts on the language time in the department quite a bit. Simon: Maybe that was good. I don’t know. Landrock: It was good, yeh. But some of them (inaudible) more than the men. (laughter) Some were very good and some

weren’t. Some of the men got into trouble, which didn’t help them any. I can say I didn’t have any trouble there because I just didn’t bother with them.

Simon: But they worked for you. You had some women working for you. Landrock: I had foremen under me. I had a man in each shop of which I had charge of tooling, and of course all I had done

(inaudible) my office then (inaudible), tell me what was needed here and there, and we made a schedule. Then I told them what had to be looked at.

Simon: You were the supervisor. Landrock: Yeah, and they just went out, each man to his shop and took care of it. Simon: There weren’t any women foremen, were there?

00:41:31

Landrock: No. Yes, there was in the power plant and in the fuse plant and the shell plant. There was women foremen. Simon: Do you think they made out all right? Did they only supervise women? Do you know women foremen who supervised

any men? Landrock: That I don’t know. I don’t think so. I think those women that were supervisors were usually in charge of— Simon: Women. But it wasn’t a problem for you? Landrock: No. Simon: Or for your foremen? Landrock: No problem. Simon: But they didn’t stay after the war too much. Landrock: No. The company got (inaudible). A few times that we got (inaudible) what was there, not in my department

(inaudible) fellows got mixed up with the women that were just too bad and the company just fired them. Simon: Oh, they did? Landrock: (inaudible) mixed up anyway (inaudible). Simon: Both of them? Landrock: Yes. Simon: Do you remember, before the union came in, the Employee Representation Plan41? Landrock: Yes. I was a part of (inaudible). I was on the committee (inaudible). 41 A plan in which employees were able to file grievances and were allowed to discuss problems with employers.

00:44:01

Simon: Were you a representative? Landrock: Steward. Simon: How did that work out? Did everybody feel it was a company-run group? Landrock: No, I don’t think so. As a matter of fact, if a man had a grievance and so on, and we felt it was right, then we took it to

the superintendent, and the superintendent, the foremen, the men got together. I know in a few cases that I was tied up with, why, the company bent over backwards. There was never any trouble there, no trouble about raises or so on. There was very little trouble about fellows doing sloppy work because the mechanics, they had price in their work. They knew better. By the time I got to be a foreman, I had over a thousand dollars worth of tools in my box, and I’ve got the box here yet with some of the tools in.

Simon: But you were an elected representative of the workers? Landrock: We weren’t elected, the men pick one out, each group. If something came up, they just picked one (inaudible). Simon: You represented. So you think it worked pretty well at the time? Landrock: I think it worked better than what (inaudible). Far better. Simon: Do you think workers were reluctant to bring a grievance because it was the company? Landrock: No. If a fellow thought something was wrong, he just talked to his representative in the gang and the questions was,

‘What you going to do about it?’ Well, we used to talk among ourselves and our representatives and if we found there was justification, we took it up with the— (recording paused)

Landrock: I don’t know of any case where everything wasn’t settled and the fellow wasn’t satisfied. Of course, there was a couple

of cases there we could not (inaudible). The man was totally wrong, you know, and if he wouldn’t accept the position, why, (inaudible) to quit, go. But I think the company system was a lot fairer and better than the present union system.

Simon: That’s very interesting. During the Depression, did a lot of men in the company lose their jobs? Was the company hit

very hard by the Depression in the early 30’s? 00:46:58

Landrock: A lot of the men were let go, a lot of people let go. That’s one of the things now with the union. When things go, they

have to keep seniority. Whether they’re any good or not doesn’t make any difference. The way it was in the old system, the fellows who were consistently the best workers were the ones kept. Those fellows that weren’t quite up on it, why, they were laid off.

Simon: Were you ever worried about being laid off? Landrock: No. Simon: It never was that bad? Landrock: As a matter of fact, there were times (inaudible) came up to strike I asked to stay in. Simon: I don’t mean about strikes. I just mean the Depression, the hard times. Landrock: No. No trouble at all there. I never was out of work at the plant. I look at it that way. I was getting my pay from

there, I done my work the best way I knew how, I played fair with the company, the company played fair with me, and I think the same thing holds true today. If a man keeps his nose clean and tends to do his business, the company looks out after him, looks out for him.

Simon: Did you ever meet Eugene Grace42? Landrock: Oh, yes. I bought his car (inaudible). Simon: Did you? Landrock: (inaudible). Simon: No kidding. Landrock: Yes. 42 Served as the President and then Chairman of the Bethlehem Steel Corporation from 1916 to 1945.

00:48:37

Simon: What kind of a person— Landrock: Very nice. He was very down to earth. He was very nice. You had to know him Simon: Did he know you by name? Landrock: Oh, yes. Simon: He knew a lot of people in the plant? Landrock: He knew quite a few, yes. I knew Charlie Schwab43. Simon: Did you really? Landrock: Yes. When I was a machinist working on the floor, he used to come through nights through the plant and see what was

going on (inaudible). First couple of times he came through, we didn’t know who he was. He asked questions, we answered, and the one of the men at the machine said, ‘Did you know who you was talking to? It was Charlie Schwab.’

Simon: I don’t know, maybe you don’t remember, but did that make you feel like the company took a real interest in what you

were doing? Landrock: Yes. Simon: And it was important work. Landrock: I always felt that way and I still feel that way today. Simon: I meant when somebody like Schwab would walk through or Grace. Did Grace do that kind of thing, too? Did he used

to walk through the plant? 43 Charles Schwab was the president of Bethlehem Steel whose leadership made the company the second largest steel producer in the United States.

Landrock: He didn’t go through the plant so much. I met him after I had— Simon: Advanced. Landrock: (inaudible) got up in the plant. Then I got acquainted with him and his car. I had an old Nash during the war. There

was no cars to be had or anything. And of course I used to load tools up in the shop in my, in the truck of the car and take them down to the plant. That didn’t help the car any. One day the general manager, R.A. Lewis44, Eugene Grace, and the Chief Engineer, they came down to the Gun Shop, (inaudible) there I was unloading tools there from the trunk and getting them in. So, he remarked (inaudible) that way. Well, that’s the only kind of a trunk I got. Well, not more was said about it. About a year later, the Plant Patrol Chief, he came to me. He says, ‘Herman, would you be interested in a good car?’ I asked, ‘What kind of a car?’ He says, ‘Mr. Grace mentioned the other day about you down at the plant, you haul the tools around. He said (inaudible) you could use a car now.’ It was hard to buy them yet then at that time.

Simon: This is during World War II. Landrock: Yeh. So I says, ‘I sure would.’ ‘Let’s go out and see him.’ So we went over to Prospect Avenue [Bethlehem,

Pennsylvania] and Mr. Grace (inaudible). So came in. He says, ‘Are you interested?’ I said, ‘I sure would.’ I said, ‘I don’t know whether I can afford it or not.’

Simon: You said that? Landrock: Yeh. Well, he said, ‘How long you been with us?’ ‘About 33 years.’ He said, ‘(inaudible) by now.’ (laughter) Then

he turned to his chauffeur and he says— (recording paused) Simon: You were about to get Mr. Grace’s car. Landrock: So he turned to his chauffeur, says, ‘Hans, how much have you spent on it?’ The chauffeur said, ‘We just had the

engine completely overhauled, the brakes, new brake lining put in, got new tires on it.’ He pulled some papers out of his pocket. He says, ‘Runs a bit over $800.’ So Mr. Grace says, ‘Well, how does $800 sound to you?’ Well, I was dumbstruck. I figured it would come to a couple thousand. It was a special car, there was only ten of them built.

44 R.A. Lewis served as vice-president of the Bethlehem Steel Corporation.

00:49:52

Simon: It was a limousine— Landrock: (Inaudible). I says, ‘I like that. I can get you a certified check tomorrow.’ ‘Don’t worry about it. You think you like

it, take good care of it. It’s yours.’ Simon: Terrific. Landrock: So I had a 1938 Special (inaudible) Packard and that was a car. Simon: How long did that last? Landrock: Well, I drove it for about two years, till we got newer cars again. It was expensive to run, about 9 miles to the gallon. I

had one experience when we went up to (inaudible) in Canada, I had made reservations and they had given me a night rate of $20 double occupancy in the room. And I pulled up in the Packard and the bellhops (inaudible) and the (inaudible) says, ‘I’m sorry, the $20 rooms are all taken. We have some good $30 and $40 rooms left.’

Simon: He thought you could afford better. (laughs) Landrock: I said, ‘No thanks. I’m going to find something else.’ (inaudible) into a motel. But that’s what it does. It was a

beautiful-looking car. I’ve got pictures of it yet. Simon: Let me ask you, did you ever want to go back to Germany to visit or to live? Landrock: No. Simon: Did you ever go back? Landrock: No. All my friends are here, all my connections are here. Simon: Your family? Landrock: Yes. Most of my technical education I got here. There was nothing that I lost over there. I have a few cousins and

friends. Two years after, we had a brother come over, we had a sister come over, and the last boat that left Rotterdam

00:54:20

[Netherlands] for America, we had our mother come over. She landed here in Bethlehem on Christmas Eve 1914. We buried her about two years ago; she was just two months shy of 101.

Simon: Terrific. Landrock: And she wasn’t even sick the day she died. Still had black hair. Simon: She was happy and not nostalgic for— Landrock: No. She had her children here with her. Simon: What had your father done? You said he wasn’t in the— Landrock: He was a plant manager for an English concern, Sterling Company, Sterling Limited, a spinning mill. They had plants

all over Sweden, Germany, France, Italy, and he was sent over to Leipzig, to the Leipzig mill. From Leipzig [Germany] they sent him over to start a new mill in Merseburg [Germany]. That’s used to be—it’s now (inaudible) on the Saale River, a beautiful little town. That’s where I was born. But Father got on a hunting trip and accidents do happen, and he was a young man and he died.

So the mother came over, brought along my younger brother who came also with us up to the gun plant in Rochester. When the plant shut down, he went to Eastman Kodak as a tool maker. He developed several patents on shuttles, and he was made foreman, then he was made superintendent of the Rochester plant. In ’35 [1935] he was made Vice President in charge of production. In 1954 he retired as Vice President of Production of Rochester and Rhode Island (?) plant. He lives up in Rochester, in Pittsburgh (?). Of course, a sister of mine, she is a widow now. She married a German fellow, a very nice fellow too, and she lives on Lake Success, Long Island [New York]. The niece of mine, (inaudible), my niece, she married a (inaudible) wealthy man in the Philippines and they live out in the Philippines.

Simon: Wow. That’s exotic. Landrock: He’s the (inaudible) plants (inaudible). Simon: Did you feel that you and your own advancement, did you feel that you got about as far as you wanted to, were you

satisfied? 00:57:33

Landrock: I got farther than I ever figured I’d get. Simon: Did you? Landrock: Yes. I got farther than I ever figured I would get. I figured being a foreman was something. When I got engineer’s

position, Plant Engineer, Chief Engineer, Plating Engineer of the plant, why, I had supervisory positions there that I had never dreamed of.

Simon: I see you kept up your education. In 1940 you— Landrock: Yeh, (inaudible) metallurgy. Simon: From Penn State. So you continued to keep up with the technology. Did the company encourage you to go to school? Landrock: Oh, yes. Simon: Did they pay your tuition? Landrock: Yes. Simon: No tuition at Penn State. Landrock: No. The plant manager, Mr. Lewis, who is dead now, when we had staff meetings, he used to say, ‘Some of you

fellows want to push up on a little up-to-date chemistry or metallurgy, Penn State is going to start a three-year course.’ It was twice a week. So I took that in ’34 [1934], ’35 [1935], and ’36 [1936]. That helped. Took some chemistry and ferrous metallurgy there. It still helps me today. So I have no complaints. When I hear fellows (inaudible) today about things, I figure it’s their own fault. They don’t want to be compatible and get along or want to start on top and go from there and higher, if there is such a thing, especially young kids. (recording paused)

Simon: So you’re pretty satisfied with your career. Landrock: Absolutely. As I say, I have no regrets. If I had to do things over again, I wouldn’t do things any different.

Simon: One last question, unless you have some thoughts. Can you give me the names of any other people that go back a long

time there in town that I could talk to? (recording paused) Simon: This is a continuation of an interview with Herman Landrock on June 17, 1975. My name is Roger Simon. (recording

paused) Simon: —with the city of Bethlehem and what living here was like. One question, though, I wanted to ask you to follow up

from before, you mentioned the Masons you had joined, and you thought that was a very good experience. You didn’t really get a chance to tell me why you thought that was a good experience. I sort of wondered about—

Landrock: We can get to this, but let’s start the way I came to Bethlehem. As you know on the previous, I was hired in New York

and came down here. There was about six of us together that came down. When we landed here, at the time the old Lehigh Valley [Pennsylvania] had an old wooden station and we used to call it Noah’s Ark. We landed on a November night, I guess, on the 13th or 14th of November. It was dark and it was raining pitchforks and it was miserable. You’d only see a very few lights around there. Bethlehem was much smaller then. So the men got together and sat on the suitcases, those that had one. I didn’t have one. What I had on, that was it, what I wore, and my toolbox. They said, ‘Looks to be a hell of a dump. I don’t know. Let’s get back to New York.’ Well, four of them decided to go back on the next (inaudible), on the next train. Two of us, we felt, too, like going back, but we were broke. We couldn’t go back. So we decided to go back as soon as we got a couple weeks’ work in. Of course, you heard from the previous (inaudible). (Inaudible) wound up.

Simon: Tell me what you thought of the town in the beginning. Landrock: To begin with, we didn’t think anything of it. It used to be called South Bethlehem. It was the outcast of (inaudible),

and if it wouldn’t have been for Lehigh University it wouldn’t have been nothing. But Lehigh wasn’t nearly as big as (inaudible) in those days. Streets were not as clean as they are now.

Simon: Were they paved? Landrock: Some were. Second Street was (inaudible), right alongside the steel company fences. Now where you go in to the rear

entrance (inaudible). It used to be the red-light district. If you didn’t walk in the middle of the street, walked along the side (inaudible), you were liable to have lost your head and you had to go inside and get (inaudible) again.

01:00:48

Simon: (Laughs) A lot of steel workers frequent that? Landrock: Oh, yes. Yes, that was a wide-open town then, and quite a few bars along there. We always used 3rd Street. That was

safer to walk on. But when I came up, I needed a boarding place, and the old plant cop, (inaudible) to Number Two shop, he gave me an address a few blocks away on 4th Street, 4th and Adams Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania], with a firm that used to have a boarding house, and they had quite a few Bethlehem Steel boarders. So he wrote me a note and I went up. The people’s names was, if I remember right, Fisher. I was taken on, and of course the man was way nice. And so was his wife. And he said, ‘Where is your suitcase,’ so I got my toolbox. He said, ‘That won’t do. (Inaudible) go down tomorrow to Lefowiches (sp?), which was a downtown clothing store. They’re out of business now.

Simon: At the same location at 4th and New? Landrock: Not 4th and New. Simon: 3rd and New. Landrock: Yeh. At that time, old Mr. Lefowich45 (sp?) was living yet, a very nice older gentleman. So he took me down there

and he asked me where I was born and how long I’d been in the country, a number of questions, and about some of the surroundings where I was born. He knew the country out there pretty well. So he says, ‘Well, you got a job, we’ll fix you up.’ I said, ‘I haven’t got a job yet. I hope I will have one.’ Well, he says, ‘I think you’ll make out.’ He says, ‘Germans usually get along pretty well down there.’ So he got me lined up with a suit, a set of underwear, a shirt, a collar, a necktie, a hat, pair of socks, and gave me order to Alexi’s (sp?), who was one of the prominent shoe stores on the 4th Street for a pair of shoes. Now you’ll laugh when I tell you what the total amounted to. Suit and underwear and shirt and everything, $15.

Simon: Fifteen dollars for everything. Landrock: In 1906, yes. Simon: 1906. 45 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

Landrock: When the shoes were $2, a pair of Oxfords. Nowadays, you can’t buy a pair of shoes for that. I said, ‘Mr. Lefowich (sp?) I haven’t got any money.’ Well, he says, ‘You have a job?’ I said, ‘I hope to have one.’ ‘Well, you’ll have a job.’ He says, ‘And when you get work and get paid, you come down every week and you pay me what you can. And if there is a week that you can’t pay me anything, you come down anyway and tell me.’ That was putting a lot of confidence and faith (inaudible) just coming into town.

But as it turned out, I got a job and started me at the top rate, 22 and a half cents an hour, and most of them worked for 17, 18, 19, 20 cents. It took me a few months to pay off my bill at Lefowiches (sp?) and I had tool bills to pay off because I had to buy some tools that I needed on the job. I have dealt with Lefowiches (sp?) up to today. I still have suits in my closet that I bought at Lefowiches (sp?). I thought a fellow has that much confidence in me deserves your patronage, and I stuck with him. Everything in the line of clothing that I bought all those years, Lefowich (sp?) furnished it. I used to get shoes from Alexi till he went out of business. In other words, the people that—

Simon: Took care of you. Landrock: —took care of me, why, I stuck with them. Simon: How much did you pay at the boarding house, do you remember? Landrock: Yes, $5 a week and 50 cents for laundry. Simon: Did that cover your food too? Landrock: That covered the food and the lodging, yes. Nowadays you can’t get $40 for a day for that. And those people were

really nice indeed. I was on the second floor. He was very strict. He said no coming in late, we’re going to lock the door at 11 o’clock. If you weren’t in at 11, why, you were going to sleep on the street. So (inaudible) don’t forget. He said, ‘Down in the back yard we have a hook, and we put a—.’ What you call it?

Simon: A rope? Landrock: No. They had a counterbalance, fire escape. That was up level, you know, and they just go out there, hook it on, pull it

down, and—

Simon: Go up the fire escape. Landrock: Go in through the window. (laughter) So that worked out, was all right. But the first years, the town had lousy

(inaudible). Police force wasn’t what it is now. But I kept clear and clean and I got along all right. Then, of course, after a while some of the boys I worked with down there, there was two brothers, George and Harry (inaudible). They were both apprentices. When they found out I had a job, George came over to me one day. He said, ‘How’d you like to get a good boarding place?’ I said, ‘I’m all right up there where I am.’ He said, ‘(inaudible). We can get you a place that’s more private.’

So I said, ‘All right. I’m going to look at it.’ Went up, and it was on Broadway here, English family, and they were really religiously strict, primitive Methodists, primitive Methodists. They came from Tamaqua [Pennsylvania]. They had four boys and two girls. The one boy was a music teacher, organist and piano teacher. Two of them were apprentices in the shop and the other one was a machinist in the shop. Then the two girls. It looked all right to me. The board they wanted was $7.50 a week, which was all right with what I was earning, and of course the two boys were there, got a room to myself instead of being in with three others. So I told Mr. Bishop (sp?) I found a boarding place. He says, ‘Good.’ He says, ‘Just take care of things here until you get situated. It’s all right with us.’ So I went up and moved to the (inaudible) on Broadway. At that time, I was a Lutheran in the old country. I didn’t belong to any church here. The whole family, the parents were charter members of Fritz Memorial Church up there on Packer Avenue and Montclair [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. Of course, the one daughter used to play the piano for the primary kids and the other one sang in the choir. They invited me along to church after a couple of weeks. I went along and I liked it. People (inaudible) there. A few days later, the pastor showed up at the house and wanted to know if I liked it. I did. He invited me to come back. So I kept coming back and got into the habit of going. Easter came along. (inaudible) asked me, ‘How would you like to join our church?’ I says, ‘I don’t know whether I can. You see, I’m a Lutheran.’ ‘Oh, my,’ he says. ‘Tell me, do the Lutherans have a different God than the Methodists have?’ Well, that kind of floored me. I said, ‘No. I’ve been taught there’s only one God.’ He says, ‘You believe in him?’ I said, ‘I certainly do.’ Well, he says, ‘In that case, I can take you on Affirmation of Faith.’ So I joined the Methodist Church, and that was 62 years ago. Then I got sweet on one of the girls, Anna, the one who sang in the choir, and before long, we got married.

Simon: This is one of the daughters where you were boarding?

01:11:06

01:12:31

Landrock: Yes. And we had 61 very good years, and I had a very good life. I lost her last year. Simon: I’m sorry. Landrock: But I never regret it. If I was 60 years younger and married again, I’d take the same girl. Yeh, not so easy to get over

after 61 years. At the steel company, I got promoted and I started going up to Lehigh, and after a while I got changed to the Engineering Department. They kept shifting me around the country on different engineering jobs. When the war years came on, why, then I went up with the group that was starting the 75-millimeter gun plant in Rochester, Symington-Anderson plant. Anderson was at that time the general manager of the Bethlehem plant. He became vice president up there.

Simon: Let’s go back a little bit. Was the neighborhood around on Broadway, was that a nicer neighborhood than— Landrock: That was a much nicer neighborhood, yes. There was a row of houses, but they all were people down at the plant.

They were well-respected families. Same on the other side of the street. That entire section, still today it’s a good neighborhood up there. Well, we lived there ‘til I was switched up to Rochester, and of course we moved up to Rochester and later on to Lackawanna plant46 until the company brought me back down here again.

Simon: What about your first place, around 4th and Adams? What kind of neighborhood was that? Landrock: Well, so-so. Simon: More new immigrants? Landrock: Yeh. Not only that, but more of the same as I was, a foreign element, and used to be a lot of drinking, and there was

(inaudible), still is there. That still hasn’t got the best reputation today, and it used to be worse in those days. But it wasn’t anywhere near the neighborhood—it’s a lot better now than what it was then. I was glad when I got up on Broadway because it was an entirely different atmosphere. I started to like the town. When the (inaudible) company had me away, I was glad when I got back and so, of course, was my late wife, because her family was living here. You may know one of my nieces. (recording paused)

46 Purchased in 1922 by Bethlehem Steel, this plant was located in Buffalo, New York and became the world's largest steelmaking operation during WW2.

01:13:51

Simon: Tell me, you refer to South Bethlehem as an orphan. Do you remember the controversy over the merger of Bethlehem and South Bethlehem?

Landrock: Yes. South Bethlehem didn’t count. Everything was Bethlehem. There was a South Side—if you talk to a

Bethlehemian, (inaudible) over there, and, of course, the steel company there. It was a dirty place. But the steel company done quite a bit of bettering. They were instrumental in getting a lot of the streets fixed up, and I think they acknowledged that they had quite a bit a heavy hand on city control. It wasn’t a city then; it was a borough. It wasn’t until—

Simon: 1917. Landrock: 1917, it became—and then Arch Johnston47, one of the vice presidents of the Steel, was the first mayor, and he cleaned

up a lot. From that time on, things started to get quite better. We had better (inaudible) and the police force got quite improved. The fire department was organized and came in. Before this, they had steel company fire department and a couple of private fire companies. That was a turning point in Bethlehem.

Simon: The merger? Landrock: Yes, the merger. Then it really started to pick up. Business started to come over to 4th Street and 3rd Street. Better

type of (inaudible) got in, councilmen and the mayors. One of the best mayors we had was Robert Pfeifle48, the contractor. I don’t know if you ever heard of him. He was about the best we had, and he was quite a difference from the one that they did have before that. He really cleaned up the entire city management, council and all, and he was a fellow that you could go in his office and talk to him anytime. He really changed things around.

Simon: What period was that? Landrock: That was, I think, the 20’s [1920], 20’s [1920] through the 30’s [1930]. He was mayor for quite a while, for quite a few

terms, practically until he died. But he was by far the best mayor I know of that they had here in Bethlehem. Of course, now with Bethlehem and South Bethlehem being one, Payrow used to be a very good mayor, and the one we

47 Johnston was the assistant general superintendent, president, and then vice president of Bethlehem Steel. After the Bethlehems were consolidated, he was elected the City of Bethlehem’s first mayor in 1918. 48 Former Mayor of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania who was known for targeting the illegal consumption of alcohol.

01:15:44

01:17:34

have now, Gordon Mowrer49, why, of course, Gordon and I have been old friends for many years. He belongs to Wesley Methodist Church and we both were members of the Pocono Plateau Christian Association50, the retreat (?) association. We’ve been locked up in church work together for years, and I think he’s a mighty nice man and so is his parents. I know the father and the mother quite well. But altogether, things have greatly improved in the Bethlehems in the last 20 years, quite a bit.

Simon: Particularly in the period before World War I, was there much interchange between the North and the South Side? Did

you go over to the North Side very much? Landrock: No. Simon: Shop or anything? Landrock: No. You didn’t have to go for shopping. They had everything on the South Side. The other stores had started up on

3rd and 4th Street, and there was no reason to go over. Of course, most of the merchants had stores on both sides. Simon: Oh, really? Landrock: Like Alexi’s (sp?), A&P51 and so on, they had stores on this side and on the other side. Price (sp?) optician, quite a few

of them had stores on both sides. But altogether it was a big improvement. Of course, when the Second World War started and the steel company really got big and started hiring, they had about the biggest number of employees, I believe 60,000 at one time. Things started improving then. Anything else?

Simon: I’d like to know more about the social life. I mentioned the Masons. Landrock: Of course, yes. Well, one of my foremen down at the plant, a general foreman, Carl Icorn (sp?), he was a Dane, he was

a Mason. So was John Koonz (sp?), assistant foreman that I had. I noticed quite a few of the men wore Masonic pins,

49 Served as Mayor of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania from 1974 to 1977 and was the interim mayor in 1987 when then Mayor Paul Marcincin was ruled to be in violation of term limits. 50 A year round Christian retreat camp located in the Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania. 51 The Atlantic and Pacific (A&P) grocery was established in 1859. In 1869 the stores were renamed to the Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company, in honor of the first transcontinental railroad and hopes of expanding across the continent.

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01:20:33

so one day I asked them about, ‘What is that, the Masons?’ Because I knew in Germany, they call them the ‘Freimaurer52’ and they are not for the working class; they’re just for foremen, the elite, you know. The average workman would never have a chance to get in there. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘I’ll give you something to read.’ He gave me a couple of Masonic texts of what it stands for. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen any of them. I have some at home I can loan you that I still use today when anybody asks me. One thing is, you’re not being asked to join. They do not solicit members. Of course, when I started to open up and ask about it, why, then they gave me something to read and they told me, ‘Now, if what you see there you like and you want to find out more about it, why, you ask me.’

So what was in the pamphlets, believe in God, believe in thy neighbor, treat thy neighbor as you want him to treat you,

and so on. It’s practically what we are taught in church and Sunday school. So I said to him, I says, ‘I’d like to try it and join.’ He said, ‘All right, I’ll get you a petition. I’ll be one of your sponsors.’ So he got me a petition, I made it out and turned it in. In those days, it cost me a lot less than it does now. I didn’t hear anything more for, oh, five, six months, but I got letters from two of my schoolmates over in the old country. One of them had, in the meantime, become the police commissioner of my home town, and he wrote me, said, ‘I wonder what trouble did you get in over there.’ He says, ‘We have inquiries here about your background and your parents and so on.’ He says, ‘The Freimaurer are asking about it. What’s going on?’

Well, I wrote him then, ‘I didn’t get in any trouble, except that I applied for membership in the Masonic Lodge.’ Here

they went all the way back to my home town committee to find out what they could. Well, evidently what they found out must have been all right, because later on it must have turned in a favorable report, because one nice day about eight months later I got a notice from the secretary of Bethlehem Lodge to report at a certain day for initiation. So I joined. I went through the three degrees. There are different stages, you know, Symbolic Lodge, Blue Lodge, it’s known within the chapter, (inaudible) Lodge, Council, Commandery Knights Templar, and of course they gave me more (inaudible), the different steps. I kept on going. I kept on going through the chairs and after 31 years of being a Mason, I’ve been (inaudible) every branch of Masonry. I got all the honorary degrees that I can get.

Simon: Great. Landrock: (inaudible), coat of armor, which in York Rite, there are two rites of Masonry, York Rite and Scottish Rite. The York

Rite is the old rite dating back to 900, 912. The Scottish Rite is more recent, within the last 75 years. Scottish Rite is numbered one, two, three, four, five. They have 32 degrees and their top degree honorary is thirty-third. In the York Rite we have no numbers of the degrees. Degrees are named. That’s no secret (inaudible) that anyone that wishes to

52 The German word for a Mason.

join. They are divided into groups. Blue Lodge has three degrees. Chapter has three degrees. Council has three degrees. Commandery has three degrees. That makes 12 degrees. In between, you can apply for a Past Master’s degree by dispensation in case you want to be a Past Master and still not go through the chairs. But that is pretty hard to get, but I got it right after I got my third degree. But then I started to go through the chairs and I served in every chair in all the York Rite bodies. I’m a past officer in all those branches, and of course I got a (inaudible), which is in York Rite the equivalent of the thirty-third in Scottish Rite. I joined the (inaudible) for thirty-second, which I had in order to get the top degree.

I say that Masonry, my work in Masonry has been a tremendous education to me in philosophy, in outlook on life, in getting around with my fellow men, in treating the men that worked under me, all around. I never regret one cent (?) that I spent there or one minute I put in time in the different activities. I was active for 31 years. I’m still active to some degree, but not nearly anymore as what I have been.

Simon: Were there a lot of Steel people in the Lodge? Landrock: Yes, yes. There’s quite a few. Masonry in Bethlehem is strong. The three the Masonic Lodges here, they have

combined membership of over 1,200, and there is that many more Masons that are Masons out of town, that belong to out-of-town Lodges or even out-of-state Lodges, like Hellertown [Pennsylvania], Coopersburg [Pennsylvania], and even some that belong over to Jersey and some belong to New York (inaudible). A lot of the salesmen that the company brought in were Masons, and of course they retained their membership or they are initiated.

But anyone that wishes to join the Masons, I help all I can, because it definitely makes them a better man, and all you have to do, apply yourself. You have investment there, and if you make use of that investment, it’s like a farmer having a farm. If he puts seed in the ground, he has a harvest. He’s got to work. That’s with Masonry, it isn’t just the money you pay in, but the work you do and get along that really gives you the education and the outlook. I think it’s one of the best things that happened to me, when I was taken in the Masons.

Simon: When was that, in your earlier years? Landrock: 1912. After I was 21. I have a 50-year pin in Blue Lodge (inaudible), 50-year certificate in the Chapter, in the Council

and in the Commandery, 50-year member all around. As a matter of fact, the Blue Lodge, I’m a 62-year member, 63-year member now.

Simon: Were you active in any other things, in Bethlehem Steel Club? Landrock: Yeh. I’m life member of the Steel Club. I joined it when it was only open to foremen, and still is. After I got my

foreman job, I was invited to what they called the Sunshine Club then, which was meeting in Allentown also, but not where the steel company is now. Of course, when they built the new place, we all switched over to the new Steel Club. You’ll still find me there every Sunday for my meals and bowling activities. I used to play golf, but with bursitis, I can’t move the arm right anymore, so I had to cut it out.

Simon: What were the activities like in the beginning when you first joined? Landrock: We had socials, had dinners together. Had a little Sun Fest, swap some stories, talk about some experience in the shops

and tough nuts you got up against, some things that stumped you a little bit. Maybe one of the others could give you advice and had similar things and then we exchanged ideas. That helped quite a lot. Then after dinner and a little social, probably (inaudible) by a bit of pinochle or poker game. Then we went home. It’s still the same today.

Simon: It was a good way to sort of talk out your problems with the other men. Landrock: That’s right, and get acquainted with the foremen from the other departments and the other shops. In other words,

members of the club, they soon knew every superintendent and every general foreman, every foreman in the plant. If you got into a tight spot, usually you knew one or the other to go to and find out what he knew about it. And it still is that way today. I often (inaudible).

(end of recording)

01:29:04

Time Topic 00:00:00 Arriving in Bethlehem from Germany 00:04:53 Getting a job at Bethlehem Steel 00:13:52 Becoming a foreman 00:16:36 Working as a designer in the Ordinance Department 00:19:14 Working at the Symington-Anderson Company 00:19:58 Returning to the Bethlehem Plant 00:21:54 Attitude towards company 00:24:34 Comparison of work environment to Krupp Works in Germany 00:30:33 Getting clothing and a room after arrival in Bethlehem 00:33:45 Meeting his future wife 00:35:45 Homes they’ve lived in 00:37:17 Working in the Plating Department 00:39:37 Working with the union as a foreman 00:41:31 Managing women during WWII 00:44:01 Employee Representation Plan 00:46:58 Bethlehem Steel during the Depression 00:48:37 Remembrances of Eugene Grace and Charles Schwab 00:49:52 Buying a car from Eugene Grace 00:54:20 Family 00:57:33 Views on career and advancement 01:00:48 Arriving in Bethlehem; clothing, room and board 01:11:06 Joining a Methodist church 01:13:51 Meeting his wife 01:15:44 Views on South Bethlehem 01:17:34 Views on various mayors of Bethlehem 01:19:17 North Side versus South Side Bethlehem 01:20:33 Involvement in Freemasonry 01:29:04 Involvement in the Bethlehem Steel Club