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The  Paleo  Solution  Episode  12  

 Andy  Deas:   Robb  Wolf,  Andy  Deas,  back  for  episode  12,  Paleolithic  Solution.  How  are  

you  today?    Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  dude,  just  feeling  like  -­‐-­‐  what's  the  line  out  of  Fletch,  "I  feel  like  100  

bucks"?      Andy  Deas:   Fletch,  man.  I  haven’t  heard  that  in  a  while.    Robb  Wolf:   Fletch  is  6'3",  6'7"  with  the  Afro.  Yeah,  still  recovering  from  the  Lou  Mars  

gig.   Five   days   of   no   sleep   seriously   kicked   my   ass;   so   this   is   going   to  guarantee  the  worst  podcast  that  we've  ever  done.  I  am  asleep,  but  I'll  do  my  best.    

 Andy  Deas:   Well,  you  don’t  have  any  echo  today,  but  we'll  see  how  it  goes  as  we  go  

along.      Robb  Wolf:   I  have  a  cheap  little  headset  on  so  hopefully  we're  getting  better.   If  this  

thing   works,   then   I’ll   actually   pony   up   some   cash   and   get   a   decent  headset  and  see  if  that  helps  things  so....  

 Andy  Deas:   And  in  all  seriousness,  I  want  to  thank  Miles  for  explaining  the  differences  

between   reverb   and   echo.   I   had   no   idea  what   the   difference  was.   But  Robb  and  I  are  committed  to  making  this  not  sound  like  crap.  So  we're  in  the   process.  We're   slow;   we're   hard-­‐headed;   we're   very   stubborn,   but  we're  going  to  get  it  fixed.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Well,  since  everything  we're  saying  is  pseudoscientific  and  crap,  then  we  

should  at   least  make  the  audio  quality  good.   I  mean  if   it's  crappy  sound  and  crappy  content,  then  it's  -­‐-­‐  it  can't  be  100%  crap.  We've  got  to  have  some  meager  of  something  good  in  there  so....  

 Andy  Deas:   Well,  if  it's  not  Scottish,  it's  crap,  Robb.  That's  what  I  always  say.    Robb  Wolf:   That's  true.  That's  true.    Andy  Deas:   All  right.  So  I  think  first  on  the  list,  you  were  going  to  -­‐-­‐  we're  going  to  let  

you  attempt  to  describe  the  Lou  Mars  event.  I  know  you  attempted  to  via  the  blog,  and  you  know,  give  it  a  shot.    

 

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Robb  Wolf:   Oh,   I   just   kind   of   want   -­‐-­‐   I   did   a   pretty   thorough   write-­‐up   on   it   even  though   I'm  again,  out  of  my  head.  But   it  was  -­‐-­‐   I've  had  an  experience   I  guess  if  anything,  I  just  kind  of  wanted  to  retouch  on  the  fact  that  -­‐-­‐  the  way   that   Lou   went   out   after   this   thing   was   amazing.   I   mean   totally  amazing.  Both  Andy  and  I  wanted  to  kill  him  at  various  times.  And  Andy  and  I  are  in  fact  the  only  two  people  on  the  whole  staff  who  threatened  Lou's  life  verbally  at  various  points  in  the  whole  thing,  which  I  was  happy  when  Andy  did  that  too  because  I  wasn’t  the  only  person  who  completely  lost  their  melon.  It  was  like  "Lou,  I'm  going  to  kill  you."    

    But   it   was   amazing.   This   dude   went   out   playing   these   drums   just   -­‐-­‐   a  

really,  really  aggressive  set  list.  Very  fast  songs,  classic  rock  and  roll,  more  modern  rock  and  roll,  just  really  good  soundtrack,  really  good  music,  stuff  that  by  and  large  I  got  almost  everything  in  there  a  lot.  And  he  played  the  hell  out  of   it   like  spinning  the  drumsticks,   just  absolutely  trying  to  crush  the  drumsticks  through  the  drumheads.  It  was  never  quieter  than  like  100  decibels   in   the   gym,   and   he   did   it   day   after   day   after   day,   and   it   was  amazing  to  watch.    

    People  would  roll   into  the  gym  and  it  was  day  2,  day  3,  and  they  would  

ask,   "How   long   has   he   been   playing?   And   how   long   is   he   supposed   to  play?  And  is  he  supposed  to  be  playing  that  hard?"  some  really  common  statements  and  questions  a  lot  -­‐-­‐  we  had  a  number  of  drummers  come  by  and  watch  him.  And  it  wasn’t  just  that  he  was  playing  hard,  but  because  Lou  is  a  show  drummer  and  I  don’t  know  anything  about  music,  but  you  can  play   it  a  basic  set,   then  you  could  play  a  basic  set  aggressively,  and  then  you  can  play  a  basic  set  kind  of  show  drumming  where  like  instead  of  hitting  a  cymbal  once,  you  hit   it  three  times  for  a  particular  beat  and  stuff  like  that.    

    And  so  he  was  double  and  triple  tapping  the  cymbals  and  overplaying  the  

snare  drum  and  all  that,  and  it  was  just  incredible.  And  he  did  it  until  he  literally  collapsed.  And  we  got  him  within  12  hours  of  beating  the  current  record.  And  obviously,   you  never   know   for   sure  but   I   think   it's   a  pretty  safe   bet   that   had   he   played   a   conservative   set,   the   dude   could   have  probably   played   like   150   hours.   It   would   have   been   nowhere   near  spectacular   is  what   it  was.   I  mean   it   seriously   captured   the   hearts   and  minds   of   the   people   that   were   coming   in   the   gym,   the   people   who  watched  on  USTREAM.    

    We  had   little   kids   coming   in   the  gym  with   their  own   toy  drum  sets   like  

playing   along   with   him,   and   then   they   would   go   home   and   watch   the  USTREAM  deal  and  actually  fall  asleep  playing  the  drums  that  the  parents  got  to  haul  away,  and  then  they  would  get  up  and  come  back  and  play  it  

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again.  It  was  pretty  incredible.  It  was  amazing  to  be  a  part  of  and  luckily,  there  were  no  fatalities  either  by  accident  or  by  Andy  and  I  bludgeoning  anyone.  So  what  are  your   thoughts  on   the  whole   thing?  You  busted  up  some   amazing   dance   or   something.   You   were   fairly   famous   at   least   in  Australia  and  New  Zealand  at  this  point  through  your  dance  moves.  

 Andy  Deas:   Well,   I   don’t   think  words   can   describe  what   I  witnessed.   But   you   did   a  

pretty  good  job  posting  the  blog  post  and  just  there.  I  mean  I  think  I  was  just  stunned  at  how  hard  Lou  played.  At  various  points  how  he  could  rally  energy  to  bring  kids  up  on  stage  and  give  them  drumsticks.  I'm  like,  "Lou,  you   have   been   drumming   for   90   hours.   How   do   you   even   have   the  where-­‐with-­‐all   to   know   there   are   little   kids   and   to   come   up   there   and  make   their  day.   I  mean   it  was   stunning.  There  are  certain   songs   in   that  set  list  that  I  will  never  listen  to  again.  "My  Sharona"  comes  to  mind.  Also  probably  "Love  Shack."  

 Robb  Wolf:   I  don’t  know.  I'm  always  a  big  fan  of  "Love  Shack,"  but  I  could  do  without  

"My  Sharona"   for  a   long   time.  And  any  MC  Hammer   I've  always  been  a  little  suspect  of.  Other  than  that,  there  was  some  good  stuff.  Joey  Creep,  just  a  ton  of  really  good  stuff.   I   think  we're  going  to  post  that  set   list  at  some   point   so   that   people   can   see   exactly  what  was   the   six-­‐hour   loop  that  was  being  played.    

 Andy  Deas:   And  there  are  some  songs  like  Pearl  Jam  or  Live  that  definitely  have  taken  

on   a   new   meaning   after   watching   Lou   play.   It   was   an   unbelievable  experience.  I’m  honored  to  be  a  part  of  it.  I'm  glad  I  was  there  to  witness  it.  I  don’t  know  that  I  can  survive  it  again.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Absolutely  not.  We  were  being  interviewed.  We  had  a  ton  of  media  over  

this,  and  one  of  the  newspaper  reporters  -­‐-­‐  I  spent  almost  an  hour  on  the  phone  with  her,  and  at  the  end  she  -­‐-­‐  I  had  her  on  speaker  phone.  Both  Nicki   and   I  were   chiming   in.   And   she   said,   "So   are   you   -­‐-­‐  when  do   you  think   or   do   you   think   you   would   be   interested   in   training   Lou   again   if  going  for  a  second  time?"  And  Nicki  and  I  started  laughing   like  we  were  insane  people  because  we  were   just   like,  "There   is  no  way  on  earth  we  would  ever  do  that  again."    

    And   I   think  even   for   the   sanctity  of   the  music,  what  Lou  did   -­‐-­‐   the  only  

way  that  Lou  could  better  what  he  did  in  this  event  is  to  just  play  lighter,  and  I  think  that  that  would  really  kind  of  undermine  what  he  established.  I  mentioned  this  in  my  blog  post,  but  it's  really  going  to  be  interesting  to  me  to  see  if  anybody  ever  tackles  this  particular  Guinness  Book  of  Record  again  because  on  the  one  hand  you  could  tackle  it  and  simply  try  to  beat  Russ  Prager's  conservatively  played  set  which  is  legit,  that's  all  good  and  

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everything,  but   I   really   think  the  gold  standard  now   is  going  to  be  what  Lou  did.   Is   somebody   going   to   put   an   aggressive   set   list   out   there,   and  then  play  it  in  this  like  Kamikaze,  no  regard  for  their  physical  well-­‐being,  just  completely  pouring  their  heart  and  soul  into  the  music  and  trying  to  give  it  everything  that  they  could?    

    And  so   it's  a  really   interesting  dilemma  I   think  for  that  particular  record  

because  Lou  fell  a  little  bit  short  of  beating  the  120  hours,  but  the  108.5  is  second  best  in  the  world,  and  it  would  have  been  best  in  the  world  as  of  -­‐-­‐  prior  to  March  of  2009.  So  I  don’t  know.  It's  very,  very  interesting.  It  was   definitely   a   hell   of   an   experience.   I'm   very,   very   honored   to   have  been  a  part  of  it,  although  incredibly  sleepy  now  so....  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,   we   may   have   to   reassess   in   a   month   to   see   if   our   brains   are  

working.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  we  maybe  past  beating  the  tar  out  of  Lou  so...but  at  this  point  right  

now,  there's  nothing  but  the  love  so....    Andy  Deas:   No,  Lou  Mars  is  a  beast.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  he  is  a  beast.  He's  an  amazing  dude.  He's  been  a  client  and  a  friend  

of  ours  for  a  long  time.  It  was  just  amazing  to  spend  that  much  time  with  him.  You  got  focused  on  the  project.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  Well....    Robb  Wolf:   Cool.      Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  I  don’t  think  I  can  say  anymore  of  that.  It  was  just  an  amazing  event  

and  an  honor  to  be  a  part  of  it  and,  you  know.  Nothing  but  love  for  Lou,  you  know.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,   yeah,   and   thanks   to  everybody  who   followed  online,   sent  emails.  

We  had  something  like  47,000  people  check  out  the  USTREAM  between  the   beginning   and   the   end   and   all   that.   So   it   was   amazing.   We   had  upwards   of   600   people  watching   at   any   given   time.   Pretty   cool.   Really,  really  cool.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  And  also  thank  you  to  all  the  people  that  volunteered  to  help  much  

longer   than   they   probably   originally   planned   to.   I   think   there   were   a  number   of   folks   that  we're   just   going   to   help   out   for   a   few   hours   that  turned   in   a   significant   amount   of   time,   just   try   to   keep   Lou   going   just  because  everyone  was  so  dedicated  to  keeping  him  going.    

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 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.  It  required  -­‐-­‐  it  was  just  full-­‐time  staffing  to  keep  the  wheels  on  the  

wagon.   There  were  dozens   and  dozens   times  where  we  nearly   had   the  event   shut   down   because   of   like   equipment   issues,   not   being   able   to  wake  Lou  after  a  nap.  I  mean  it's  just  a  zillion  different  things,  running  out  of  music  when  Lou  was  skipping   through  a  set   list.  There  were  a   ton  of  these  little  almost  catastrophes  that  took  all  of  our  best  effort  to  avoid.  It  was  an  incredibly  intense  experience  for  sure,  but  we'll  quit  going  on  and  on  about   that,  but   there  were  a   lot  of  people  who  had   followed   it   and  just  wanted  to  let  the  folks  in  on  it.  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  All  right.  So  on  the  less  interesting  things  -­‐-­‐      Robb  Wolf:   Yes.    Andy  Deas:   -­‐-­‐  but  a  frequent  topic  that  we  -­‐-­‐  I  think  we've  touched  on  a  little  bit,  and  

you   talked  about  on  your  blog  so  we're  going   to   revisit   it  a   little  bit   for  folks,   and   we're   going   to   hit   pre-­‐workout   nutrition   and   just   get   your  thoughts  on  it.  I  know  every  few  days  it  seems  like  we  get  a  comment  on  it  on  the  blog.  We  got  a  number  of  emails  in  the  question  queue  kind  of  "Hey,  how  do  you  guys  handle  pre-­‐workout  nutrition?  I  see  what  you're  recommending  post  WOD  and  other  times  of  the  day."  So  I  thought  we’d  kind  of  just  talk  about  it  a  little  bit  and  hopefully  have  the  final  word  on  this  topic;  although,  there  is  no  final  word  on  anything  I'm  afraid.  

 Robb  Wolf:   No,   it  doesn’t   look   like   it.  Like   I   typed  Mars  thing,   this  has  all  happened  

before.   It  will   all   happen  again,   so   straight  out  of  Battlestar  Galactica.   I  feel   like   we   have   helped   people   get   a   pretty   good   handle   on   post-­‐workout  nutrition  and  the  kind  of  different  variables  involved  with  that;  if  you're   oriented   on   fat   loss,   if   you're   oriented   on   performance,   if   that  performance   is   strength-­‐oriented   or   whether   it's   kind   of   metabolic  conditioning   or  more   endurance   oriented.   I   feel   like   folks   are   getting   a  little   grasp   on   that,   and   then   so   this   pre-­‐workout   nutrition   has   been  popping  up  a  lot.    

    And  I  think  the  reason  way  it's  a  little  more  slippery  to  get  a  handle  on  is  I  

just   found   a   pre-­‐workout   nutrition   to   be   wildly   variable   compared   to  post-­‐workout  nutrition.  Pre-­‐WOD  nutrition  depends  a  lot  on  what  type  of  activity  you're  going  to  do.   If  you're  going   in  to  do  some  strength  work,  then   I   find   that   people   tend   to   benefit   from   maybe   a   little   bit   of   like  protein  and  maybe  a   little  bit  of   coffee,   like  getting   that  dopamine  and  getting   the   neurotransmitters   really   cooking,   is   a   great   way   to   do   that  and   it's   a   very   narrow   therapeutic  window   on   the   caffeine;   like   a   little  

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goes  a  long  way,  unfortunately  since  I'm  cracking  the  crack  addict  on  the  coffee.    

    But  a  pre-­‐WOD  meal  for  strength-­‐oriented  work,  I  really  like  some  of  that  

protein,   protein   plus   a   little   caffeine.   If   you  want   to   have   a   little   bit   of  carbs  in  there,  fine.   If  you  want  a  little  fat   in  there,  fine.  But  I   just  don’t  find   it   being   all   that   beneficial   and   Tom   Fahey   of   California   State  University   Chico   has   done   a   bunch   of   research   on   this.   Dan   John   has  referenced   him.   He   and   Dan   John   are   really   good   friends.   And   for  strength  work,  it  seems  like  that  pre-­‐WOD  like  branch-­‐chain  amino  acids,  protein  source,  seems  to  do  people  very,  very  well  for  strength-­‐oriented  work.    

    Then   we   start   looking   at   something   like   mixed   modal   CrossFit   style  

metabolic   conditioning,   and   then   it   just   becomes   a   really   subjective  situation  for  myself.  I  just  can't  work  out  with  anything  in  my  stomach  or  like   it's  got   to  be  very,  very  minimal   for  me   to  do  my  best  on  kind  of  a  CrossFit  type  stuff.  I  really  need  to  be  almost  getting  hungry.  There's  kind  of   wacky   narrow   window   for   me   to   do   my   best   because   if   I   get   too  hungry,  then  I'm  going  to  kind  of  not  feel  that  great  at  WOD;  but  then  if  I  have   any   amount   of   food   in  my   stomach   then   I'm   just   kind   burpy   and  lethargic,  and  I'm  just  kind  of  a  puss  and  I  don’t  want  to  barf.  So  I  end  up  going  easy  easier.    

    And  so  I  just  kind  of  in-­‐between  window  where  my  stomach  is  empty,  but  

my  energy  is  good,  and  I  can  really  hammer  it.  I  know  other  people  who  can  do  great  on  WOD  after  having  eaten  a  meal;   protein-­‐carb,  protein-­‐fat,  whatever.  They'll  be  fine.  So  my  experience  with  all  that  stuff  is  that  you  really  need  to  figure  out,  okay,  what  type  of  exercises  that  I'm  doing?  If  it's  strength  work,  I  think  it  will  typically  benefit  with  some  protein  pre-­‐workout;  although,  Matt  Lalonde  has  been  doing  a  lot  of  experimentation  reading  on  intermittent  fasting  before  training  and  that's  kind  of  a  whole  other  thing.    

    I  think  Martin  Beckham  has  some  great  stuff  talking  about  that  also.  But  

again,  you  want  to  make  all  the  tie  into  that  appropriate.  I  think  we  can  do  a  podcast  kind  of  talking  about  that.  I  don’t  want  to  get  into  that  too  much  right  now.  But  we've  got  the  strength  orientation,  then  we've  got  kind   of   the   CrossFit  WOD   kind   of   orientation   in   which   you're   going   to  have  to  simply  experiment  and  see  what  you  feel  best  on.  And  I  just  can't  give  you  any  more  solid  thing  than  that.    

    I  think  when  you're  reading  on  high  intensity  interval  training,  usually  the  

recommendation   is   to  eat  some  sort  of  meal   two  to  three  hours  before  

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so   the   gastric   emptying   isn’t   an   issue.   I   think   that's   a   pretty   solid  recommendation   there;   then   obviously   we're   just   kind   of   focusing   on  what  the  composition  of  that  is,  and  you  can  play  with  doing  it  low  carb.  You  can  play  with  doing   it  protein  and  carb.  Again,   it  depends  on  what  your  goals  are  and  what  you're  up  to  and  you  really   just  need  to  get   in  and  experiment  with  that  stuff.    

    And   then   long   endurance   efforts   -­‐-­‐   when   I'm   thinking   about   that,  

anything   over   two   hours   then   we   need   to   start   thinking   about   event-­‐specific  fueling.  But  beyond  that,  I  think  kind  of  a  standard  meal  protein  and   fat   is   probably   good   to   go   for   a   standard   endurance   event   that's  going   to   be   kind   of   sub-­‐lactate,   and   then   as   you   get   longer   and   longer  into  the  event,  then  you'll  start  doing  mixed  composition  meals;  protein-­‐carb,  a  little  bit  of  fat  to  be  able  to  power  you  through.  And  we  really  saw  it  with  Lou  actually  this  weekend.  When  we  could  get  some  protein  and  carbs  in  him,  he  just  plowed  through  stuff.    

    We  had  the  ignition  switch  firing.  We  just  needed  the  fuel  to  be  able  to  

burn  it.  And  as  long  as  we  kept  feeding  him,  he  kept  going.  And  talking  to  Kelly  Starrett  and  a  couple  of  other  people  who  have  some  experience  in  real   long  duration  activity,  then  we  see  some  good  benefit.  You  have  to  fuel  appropriately  during  a  long-­‐event  deal.  So  that's  getting  off  topic,  but  hopefully  it  kind  of  bookends  it  all  together.  Andy  is  like,  "Dude,  shut  up."  So  those  are  my  thoughts  on  the  pre-­‐WOD  meal.  You  got  anything  to  add  to  that,  Andy?  

 Andy  Deas:   I  think  to  be  clear  though,  I  think  for  most  folks  we're  talking  about  real  

food.      Robb  Wolf:   Right,  right.      Andy  Deas:   Not  -­‐-­‐  I  mean  I  think  there's  a  lot  of  stuff  out  there  about  these  -­‐-­‐  drinking  

shakes   before   or   during   the   workout.   I’m   not   really   sold   that   there's  much   benefit   to   it.   And   honestly,   my   humble   opinion   for  most   folks,   I  think  we're  really  spun  up  about  pre-­‐WOD  nutrition,  and  I'm  just  not  sold  that  it  makes  that  big  a  difference  in  the  long  run  for  most  folks.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,   I'm  not   either.   And   it   becomes   that   thing   again  where   if   you   are  

really   legitimately   pushing   the   boundaries   of   human   performance   and  recovery,   and   circa   event   performance   –   event-­‐specific   performance   is  so,   so,   so   important   that  we  need   to   be   perfectly   dialed   into   that,   and  that's   I   guess   kind   of   one   thing.   But   we've   produced   some   really  remarkable   performance   in   people   without   much   focus   in   that   area.  

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That's  not  to  say  that  we  possibly  couldn’t  get  more  juice  out  of  that,  but  Glen  Cordoza,  mixed  martial  arts  fighter,  a  great  example  of  that.    

    Usually,  when  he  was  going  in  for  a  session,  he  would  rather  be  a  little  bit  

-­‐-­‐  definitely  he  would  do  a  breakfast,  and  then  two  hours  later  he'd  go  in  and  do  a  session,  maybe  mid-­‐session,  a  two  to  three-­‐hour  session.  He'd  have  a  little  piece  of  fruit  or  something  like  that,  and  then  he  would  do  a  protein   and   carbohydrate   meal   post-­‐workout,   and   he   did   amazing   on  that.  A  lot  of  it  is  being  able  to  have  enough  empty  stomach  to  be  able  to  train  hard  depending  on  what  you're  up  to.  I  totally  agree  though  the  pre-­‐WOD  feeding  and  mealing  and  all  that  stuff,  I  just  think  it's  super  high  for  the  supplement  scene.  And  there's  some  kind  of  compelling  stuff  to  get  in  and  tinker  with  it,  but  for  90-­‐95%  of  people,   I   just  think  it's  kind  of  silly.  It's  just  shooting  -­‐-­‐  what  was  the  deal,  shooting  a  canon  out  of  a  canoe?  You  need  to  focus  on  some  other  stuff,  food  quality,  getting  some  sleep,  all   these   other   things   are   going   to   give   you   way   better   return   than  focusing  overly  on  pre-­‐WOD  nutrition.  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,  it  reminds  me  of  something  Ito  once  said,  where  just  because  you  

can  see  the  ladder  of  the  rung  and  you  know  it's  up  there  and  you  know  that   pre-­‐WOD   nutrition   is   important,   it   doesn’t   mean   that   that's   the  ladder  of  the  rung  that  you're  on.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Right.    Andy  Deas:   And  it  may  not  be  time  to  spend  any  amount  of  efforts  thinking  about  it.  I  

feel   like   for  a   lot  of   folks,   to  your  point;   sleep,   food  quality,  a  bunch  of  other  stuff  are  going  to  pay  them  much  higher  ROI  than  worrying  about  pre-­‐WOD  nutrition.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,   yeah,   this   is   a   lot   of   the   short   attention   span   fear   deal;   like   you  

need   to  pick  a  program  that  you   like,   you  need   to   stick  with   it   for   long  term.  You  need  to  think  about  some  of  the  periodization,  and  what   it   is  that  you're  up  to.  You  need  some  damn  goals.  So  this  is  all  the  stuff  that  kind  of  weaves   it   all   together,   and   then   that  will   to   some  degree   -­‐-­‐   it's  almost  like  gold  panning  or  something.  You  have  all  that  stuff  delineated,  and  you  take  care  of  all  these  big  things.  Sleeping,  general  food  quality,  a  qualitative-­‐oriented   training   approach,   not   just   slap-­‐sticking   stuff  together.   And   then   suddenly  when   you   have   all   that   stuff   in   line,   then  these   little  nuances  of  pre  or  post   -­‐workout   food  and  all   that   -­‐-­‐   kind  of  the   importance   becomes   obvious,   and   then   it's   very,   very   easy   to  experiment  with  it  and  to  find  out  whether  or  not  it  works  ultimately  for  you  and  then  to  be  able  to  refine  it  again.    

 

9    

Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  That  was  very  Dan  John  of  you,  Robb.    Robb  Wolf:   I've  been  drinking  scotch  all  day,      perfect.    Andy  Deas:   Though  I  think  Dan  in  his  book  never  let  go  until  -­‐-­‐  his  video  talks  about  

having   his   standard   routines   that   he   goes   back   to,   and   they   can  experiment   with   other   variables   to   kind   of   have   an   idea   of   how   the  additional  things  he's  manipulating  are  having  an  effect  on  him.  So  I  think  there's  a  lot  of  intelligence  there.  On  a  totally  unrelated  but  related  topic,  did  you  ever  try  that  ultimate  orange  drink  I  think  it  was  called?  

 Robb  Wolf:   I  did  not,  but  it  had  some  potential  gluten  contaminants  in  it.  It's  made  in  

a  facility  that  handles  wheat.  So  I  am  not  going  with  that  one,  yeah.    Andy  Deas:   Yeah.    Robb  Wolf:   I  know  a  number  of  people   in  the  gym  like  Lani  and  some  other  people  

really  like  it.  I  think  a  Nutrishop  here  in  town  -­‐-­‐  that's  kind  of  like  private  labeled  thing  that  they  have  so,  yeah.  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  All  right.  I   just  remember  back  in  the  day,  there  were  rumors  that  

the  initial  batches  were  spiked  with  some.    Robb  Wolf:   Oh,   really?   Some   goodies?   Yeah,   there   are   some   interesting   stories   on  

that  like  Bill  Phillips,  a  little  bit  of  Diana  ball  went  out  in  the  first  couple  of  rounds  and  people  got  amazing  results  and  then  the  hype-­‐con    after  that.  But   all   of   the   product   is   gone   so   there’s   nothing   for   the   FDA   to   track  down.  Interesting  stuff.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yes,  it's  good  reading.  Okay.  Sorry  to  encourage  you  to  go  off  topic.    Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  man!      Andy  Deas:   My  fault.      Robb  Wolf:   You  don’t  have  to  do  it  today.  I'm  halfway  there  anyway.      Andy  Deas:   All  right.  So  the  next  topic  we  need  to  cover  was  the  fish  oil  calculations.  

We  have  about   I   think  10   to  15  questions   in   the  question  queue  about  this,  number  of  questions  on  the  blog.  So  we'll  give  you  another  chance  to  try  to  simply  explain  what  current  thinking  is  on  how  much  fish  oil  folks  are  consuming,  and  we  can  kind  of  spin  off  of  that.    

 

10    

Robb  Wolf:   Right.   Okay.   So   I   am   never   going   to   put   anything   with   a   numerical  calculation  up  for  anybody  ever  again.  It  ends  up  creating  a  nightmare  of  question  and  answer   for  Andy  and   I.  But  basically,  where  we're  at  with  this   is  that  folks  who  -­‐-­‐  particularly  when  they're  new  to   like  CrossFit  or  rolling   into   your   gym   or   like   they're   navigating   to   the   blog   and   they're  like,  "Well,  okay,  I'm  going  to  start  taking  some  fish  oil.  How  much  should  I   take?"   What   we're   trying   to   do   is   to   reverse   an   omega-­‐3/omega-­‐6  imbalance   that   is   just   inherent   in   a   grain-­‐fed   diet.   And   this   is   true  whether  we're  talking  about  you  eating  grains  or  the  critters  that  we  are  eating,   eating   grains.   So   they  end  up  becoming   very  heavy   in  omega-­‐6.  We   need   to   try   to   balance   that   omega-­‐3   and   omega-­‐6   situation   out  because  it's  very  pro-­‐inflammatory  and  causes  a  lot  of  problems.    

    So  this  is  based  largely  off  of  work  from  Poliquin,  but  it's  very,  very  similar  

in   numerical   value   from  what   you   see   out   of   the   omega   RX   zone   from  Barry  Sears,  and  it's  that  you  would  recommend  somewhere  between  0.5  and  1  gram  of  EPA/DHA  per  10  pounds  of  body  weight  per  day.  The  half  a  gram  is  for  people  who  are  generally  healthy,  but  they've  just  been  eating  a   standard  diet.   The  1.0   level   is   for  people  who  are  very  overweight  or  sick.  And  I  would  argue  that  if  you're  very  overweight,  then  the  likelihood  that  you've  got  some  significant  illness  brewing  is  probably  pretty  high.    

    It's   a  pretty  aggressive   recommendation,  but   this   is   to   just  basically  get  

people  back   to   a   level   of  where   they   should  be,   and   then  we   find   that  people   probably   hit   a  maintenance   of   somewhere   around   like   1/4   of   a  gram  of  EPA/DHA  per  10  pounds  of  body  weight.  That  seems  to  be  a  good  maintenance   level   for  most   folks,  and   it  usually   takes  some  two  to   four  months,   five   months   to   get   to   that   point.   It's   just   something   that   you  have  to  play.  You  keep  an  eye  on  inflammation  and  recovery,  and  when  you  start  recovering  really  well   from  activity  and  the  soreness   is  kind  of  decreasing,  then  you  start  titrating  that  fish  oil  down,  and  you  find  kind  of  a  carrying  point  with   it.  There  are  some  blood  work   that  you  can  do   to  track  that,  but  the  EPA  arachidonic  acid  blood  test  is  certainly  expensive  so  we  could  try  to  make,  a  say  more  of  a  qualitative  sort  of  deal.    

    So  for  this  example,  if  we  had,  say  a  200-­‐pound  male,  and  let's  put  him  at  

the  lower  end  of  that  recommendation.  A  200-­‐pound  guy,  half  a  gram  per  10  pounds  of  body  weight,  we've  basically  divided  his  body  weight  by  10  so  we  got  20.  And  then  we  put  that  half  a  gram  into   it,  so  we're  talking  about  10  grams  total  approximately.  And  that's  where  he  would  probably  find  a  pretty  good  maintenance  dose.  People  kind  of  freak  out  about  that  level  when  it's  capsules  because  a  given  capsule  may  only  have,  say,  like  300  or  400  mg,  and  so  it  ends  up  taking  several  capsules  equal  to  a  gram  of  fish  oil.  So  people  may  be  taking  20  or  30  capsules  of  fish  oil  depending  

11    

on  what  brand   they  have.   If  we  have   liquid   fish  oil,   then   it's  only   like  a  tablespoon  or   two   so   it   seems  much   less.   But   people   really   get  wigged  out  and  freak  out  about  that,  but   it's  really  not  that  much  and  really  all  we're  trying  to  do  is  replace  something  that's  missing  out  of  the  diet.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.   And   I   think   one   other   consideration   is   when   adding   any  

supplement,  the  zinc,  et  cetera;  my  recommendation  is  always  a  ramp  up  period  kind  of   like  with  exercise.  We'll   get   some   folks   that  will   go   from  zero   fish   oil   to   20   grams   the   next   day,   and   sometimes   that   has   some  unusual  side  effects.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Sure.  Sure.  Yeah,  you  need  to  stay  near  a  commode  for  the  first  couple  of  

days  transitioning  into  that  so  yeah.    Andy  Deas:   So   I   think  a  safer  bet   is   to  kind  of  slowly   ramp   it  up   like  you  would  any  

smart  exercise  program.      Robb  Wolf:   Totally,   totally.   So   hopefully   that   helps   people   wrap   that   around   their  

wheelhouse,   get   that   all   wrapped   up   and   understand   why   we   would  recommend  that.  This  is  consistent  with  other  people  that  are  you  know,  out  in  the  kind  of  fitness  and  strength  and  conditioning  community.  This  is   fairly   similar   recommendations  of  other  well-­‐known   folks.   People   ask  for   literature   to   support   these   levels.   There's   literally   4,000   to   6,000  research  papers  a  week  being  generated  on  fish  oil  right  now.  I  mean  it's  impossible  even  to  come  close  to  staying  on  top  of  it  all.  There's  a  ton  of  stuff   out   there.   I   would   just   encourage   folks   to   do   a   little   bit   of  investigating  on  their  own,  and  a  simple  Google  search  can  track  down  a  lot  of  information  for  you.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  I  think  the  only  challenging  thing  with  some  of  the  literature  that  I  

haven’t   seen   and   maybe   you've   seen   ,is   that   there's   not   a   ton   of  literature  out  there  on  dosages  this  high.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Right,  right,  there's  only  a  little  bit  this  high,  yeah.    Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  Now,  to  your  point  this  is  I  think  pretty  consistent  with  Poliquin.  It's  

pretty  consistent  with  Berardi's  recommendation  and  a  number  of  other  folks.  There  isn't  a  lot  of  documented  scientific  data  to  support  it.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Right,  right.    Andy  Deas:   But  we  haven’t  lost  anybody  yet.    

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Robb  Wolf:   None  that  we  haven’t  been  able  to  dispose  of  the  body.  Yeah,  we're  fine  on  that.  

 Andy  Deas:   With  all  seriousness,  I  was  just  kidding.  All  right.  So  hopefully  that  helps.  

Let   us   know   if   we   have   further   muddied   the   waters,   but   I   think   that  makes  things  a  little  clearer  and  please  ramp  up  your  dosage  slowly.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yes.    Andy  Deas:   Okay.   So   moving   on   we   have   another   interesting   question   from   Miss  

Spinach   from   the   blog.   "So   two   simple   questions   about   digestive  enzymes:  (1)  Why  might  a  person  have  stomach  acid  deficiency  worse  in  the   morning,   at   breakfast,   than   later   in   the   day?   Doesn’t   Poliquin   say  something  about  people  who  have  trouble  eating  a  high  protein  meal  for  breakfast?   Is   time   of   day   somehow   a   factor   or   the   hours   of   fasting  created  by  sleep?"  

 Robb  Wolf:   That  one  is  pretty  interesting.  I  would  definitely  say  if  the  individual  had  

some   sort   of   low   cortisol   in   the   a.m.   -­‐-­‐   so   normally   our   cortisol   level  should  be  ramping  up  in  the  a.m.,  and  that's  part  of  what  wakes  us  up.  It  releases   energy.   It   makes   us   alert,   ready   to   tackle   the   day.   Somebody  who   has   an   altered   adrenal   function   could   -­‐-­‐   certainly   I   think   that   this  would  be  made  worse,  and  we  see  there's  a  lot  with  people  that  they  just  simply  don’t  want  to  eat  in  the  morning.    

    This  is  another  thing  I  got  from  Poliquin  which  is  -­‐-­‐  you  get  these  clients,  

these  folks  that  just  really  do  not  want  to  eat  in  the  morning  particularly  protein.  You  throw  some  of  the  -­‐-­‐  something  like  the  NOW  Foods  Super  Enzymes  or  just  a  basic  betaine  hydrochloride  in  with  that  meal,  and  then  they   actually   get   some   appetite,   and   they   want   to   eat.   But   I   would  suspect   that   it  was   related  more   to  a   low  cortisol   issue   in   the  morning,  and  then  conversely  like  a  potentially  higher  cortisol  in  the  evening  that  -­‐-­‐  the  reverse  cortisol  situation.  

 Andy  Deas:   Yup.   Good.   All   right,   part   2   of   the   question.   So   she's   "tinkered   with  

several  different  types  and  brands  of  the  enzymes  and  seems  to  do  best  with  just  plain  -­‐-­‐  

 Robb  Wolf:   Betaine  hydrochloride.    Andy  Deas:   Thank   you.   I'm   so   tired,   "and   not   the   enzyme   formulas   with   multiple  

different   ingredients  and   I  only  need  them  from   like  7:00  a.m.   to  noon.  Am  I  completely  weird  or  is  there  some  rhyme  and  reason  behind  this?"  

 

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Robb  Wolf:   It  kind  of  the  makes  sense,   I  mean   if  she's  producing  adequate   levels  of  particularly  pancreatic  enzymes.  So  we  release    pepsin  and  pepsinogen  in  the  stomach  and  which  digests  proteins.  We  have  some  salivary  amylase  which  happens  in  the  mouth,  and  that  breaks  down  carbohydrates  a  little  bit.  But  the  lion's  share  of  digestion  happens  in  the  pancreas.  We  end  up  with,  proteases,  things  that  break  down  carbohydrates,  things  that  break  down  emulsified   lipids  or  fats.  But  you  can  have  some  people  -­‐-­‐  and   it's  interesting.   This   is   another   one   of   these   gluten   intolerance   things   that  I've  been  reading  about.    

    If   we   have   an   irritated   gut   lining,   then   the   cholecystekinin   that   would  

normally   fire   or   regulates   turning   on   and   turning   off   of   pancreatic  enzyme   secretion   kind   of   gets   goofed   up.   So   we   may   not   release   the  pancreatic  enzymes  at  the  correct  times,  and  the  betaine  hydrochloride  -­‐-­‐just  that  acidic  environment   is  actually  kind  of  the  main  signal  that  fires  the   release   of   the   pancreatic   enzymes.   So   if   the   main   issue   is   just  hypochloridia,  if  it's  low  stomach  acid  but  we  don’t  have  a  problem  with  pancreatic  enzyme  status,  then  you  likely  would  benefit  more  from  just  a  basic  betaine  hydrochloride.   Just   getting   the   stomach  pH   lower,   getting  that   content   of   acid   higher,   and   then   it's   going   to   basically   fire   all   the  mechanisms  that  we  need  to  release  pancreatic  enzymes.    

    A   lot   of   people   though   have   kind   of   a   blow   out   or   a   low   level   of  

pancreatic   enzyme   secretion   in   addition   to   low   stomach   acid.   So   that's  largely  -­‐-­‐  and  I  think  I  kind  of  fall  in  that  camp.  It's  probably  from  trying  to  overeat   for  years  and  years  and  years  trying  to  get  big,  but  never  really  pulling   that   off   effectively,   I   think   I   probably   put   –   I’m   almost   38   and   I  probably   put   about   58-­‐years-­‐worth   of   eating   on   my   body.   So   my  pancreatic   enzymes   are   a   little   on   the   low   side  because   I   really   benefit  from   kind   of   a   mixed   bag   deal   of   the   betaine   hydrochloride   and   the  protease,   lipase,   amylase   combinations,   the   protein,   carbohydrate,   fat  digestive  enzymes.  This  is  interesting  to  the  extent,  so….  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,   it   is   very   interesting,  and   I   think   I  would  be   in   the  camp  with  her  

where  it's  much  worse  in  the  morning,  as  far  as,  my  acid  deficiency  and  it's   much   better   later   in   the   day.   But   I   never   gave   it   a   lot   of   thought  actually.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.  That  totally  makes  sense.    Andy  Deas:   All  right.  Good  question.  Cool.    Robb  Wolf:   Totally.    

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Andy  Deas:   All  right.  So  moving  on  we  got  a  question  from  Stu,  related  fish  oil.  We're  going  to  come  back  to  the  topic.  I'm  going  to  read  the  first  part  because  I  want   to  make   a   comment   because   I've   had   a   lot   of   caffeine   today   and  hanging  out  with  Robb  has  made  me  obnoxious  so….  

 Robb  Wolf:   Okay.      Andy  Deas:   So  Stu  says  -­‐-­‐  stop  moving  paper,  Robb.      Robb  Wolf:   Say  that  again.  You  broke  up  there  a  little  bit.      Andy  Deas:   It  sounds  like  you're  sanding  wood.  Whatever  you  just  did,  stop  it.      Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  okay.      Andy  Deas:   I  think  you  were  shifting  positions.    Robb  Wolf:   I  did.  Yeah,  I  will  not  move.      Andy  Deas:   All  right.  We'll  have  to  teach  you  how  to  mute  that  headset.  But  anyway,  

never  mind.      Robb  Wolf:   Okay.    Andy  Deas:   So   a   question   from   Stu,   "Okay,   I   blame  Andy   for   this   one   because   he's  

always  talking  in  the  podcasts  about  his  fish  oil  addiction.  First,  I'm  really  enjoying  all  the  great  info  on  your  site  and  in  your  podcasts.  I'm  only  one  month  into  doing  CrossFit,  five  total  workouts  because  they  leave  me  so  sore  for  the  next  five  days  that  I  can't  workout,  and  I'm  starting  to  clean  up  my  diet."  

    So   I   just  want   to  make   a   comment   that,   dude,   I   don’t   know   how   hard  

your  workouts  are  doing  are,  but  please,  for  the  love  of  God,  scale  them  to  some  reasonable  amount  of  effort  so  that  you're  not  so  sore  you  can't  do  anything  for  five  days.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.  You'll  make  better  progress  on  that  interestingly.    Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  I  think  we  have  some  folks  in  our  gym  that  when  you  start,  the  level  

of   actual   CrossFit   WOD   time,   I   mean   literally   can   be   a   five   to   eight  minutes  depending  on  how  deconditioned  they  are,  and  that  is  plenty  of  enough  stimulus  in  the  beginning  to  see  results.    

 

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Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah,  totally.  So  folks  want  to  beat  themselves  worse,  but  you  want  to   dig   a   little   hole,   and   then   let   your   body   fill   that   up   and   super  compensate  and  kind  of  go  back  and  forth  on  that,  and  the  tendency  to  overdo  it  is  pretty  potent.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,  and  so  I'm  always  with  the  -­‐-­‐  let's  never  make  it  more  complicated  

that  it  has  to  be.  Let's  never  make  it  harder  than  it  has  to  be.      Robb  Wolf:   Right.    Andy  Deas:   Unless  you   just  want   to   for  some  silly   reason.  Anyway,  okay,  so  moving  

on.  He   says,   "Okay,   so  both   you   and   the  nutrition   coach   at  my  affiliate  (shout   out   to   crossfitscottsdale.com,   great   people),"   I   used   to   live   in  Scottsdale  so  there  you  go,  "recommend  consuming  a  ton  of  fish  oil  per  day  to  start  the  body  moving  away  from  insulin  resistance,  so   I'd   like  to  start  including  that  in  my  diet.  Tuesday  night  I  decided  to  have  some  with  dinner   and   I   downed   10   1g   pills   and   the   result   was   some   very   bad  heartburn  which  I'm  still  experiencing  this  morning,  nearly  36  hours  later,  although  it's  much  more  tolerable  now  than  the  first  12  hours.    

    I  pretty  much  never  get  heart  burn,  so  I'm  definitely  attributing  it  to  the  

pills  which  was  the  only  thing  out  of  the  norm  about  my  diet/dinner  on  Tuesday.  Is  this  common  when  adding  fish  oil  to  your  diet  for  somebody  who  is  so,  how  do  you  say  it,  'metabolically  deranged'?  Should  I  start  with  a  smaller  amount  of  pills  per  day?   I  know  ideally   they  should  be  spread  out  throughout  the  entire  day  at  each  meal.  If  so,  how  many  total  per  day  as  I'm  ramping  up  to  the  recommended  level?"  

 Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  man!  Given  the   fact   that  Stu  apparently   likes   to  beat   the  tar  out  of  

himself   and   took   10   of   these   in   one  meal,   I'm   almost   guessing   that   he  took   10   in   one   go   and   the   heartburn   was   actually   like   a   perforated  esophagus,  and  he  was  like  bleeding  out  all  night.  Yeah,  I  mean  definitely  ramping  this  up  easier,  spreading  these  out  throughout  the  day.  I'd  never  really  heard  anybody  say  that  they  have  heartburn  from  taking  fish  oil.  So  that   really   is   odd   to  me.   So   I  mean   I   would   dial   that   back   and   try   like  maybe   three   per   meal,   and   then   see   how   you   do   with   that.   I   mean  breakfast,   lunch,   dinner,   and   a   snack,   3,   6,   9,   and   then   one   with   the  snack,  and  you're  pretty  covered.  What  do  you  think  on  that,  Andy?  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,   I   think   start  with   a   smaller   dosage.   The   heartburn   thing   is   pretty  

unusual.   I  agree  with  you.  I  mean  it  could  be  something  where  maybe  a  higher  one  down  the  road  would  be  necessary  for  Stu,  but  I  think  three  a  meal   to   start.   See   how   you   go.   Roll   with   that   for   a   few   days   before  moving  up  slowly  towards  your  desired  dosage.    

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 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.  That  makes  sense  to  me.      Andy  Deas:   Yeah.   And   definitely   keep   us   updated,   Stu.   I'd   be   curious   to   see   if   the  

lower  dosage  -­‐-­‐  if  you're  still  getting  that  heartburn  because  that  is  really,  really  unusual.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  I  don’t  remember  anybody  mentioning  that  as  a  side  effect.      Andy  Deas:   Yes.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.    Andy  Deas:   And  I  don’t  think  we  made  up  the  term  "metabolically  deranged,"  but  I'm  

glad  that  you  like  that,  Stu.    Robb  Wolf:   It's  just  something  to  feel  good  about,  yes.      Andy  Deas:   Try  not  to  take  it  personally.  I'm  just  kidding.    Robb  Wolf:   We  try  not  to  tease  the  metabolically  deranged    too  often,  it's  just  mean  

to  do  so….    Andy  Deas:   That's  right.  We're  just  a  little  off  today.  So  good  question.  Please  keep  us  

updated  as  to  how  things  go.    Robb  Wolf:   Totally.    Andy  Deas:   Cool.  All   right.  Next,  we  got   a  question   from  Tyler.  He  attended  one  of  

your  final  nutrition  certs  in  Toronto,  Robb.  Nice.      Robb  Wolf:   That  was  a  fun  one.      Andy  Deas:   Good.  Good.  "My  wife  and  I  are  about  99%  Paleo  compliant  and  we  have  

a  five-­‐month-­‐old  son.  My  question  is  in  regards  to  starting  her  on  solids.  Is   small   early   exposure   to   grains   and   dairy   helpful   or   would   you  recommend  Neolithic  elimination?"  

 Robb  Wolf:   I  mean  this  is  completely  my  own  bias  on  this,  but  the  GI  tracts  of  infants  

are  even   less   adept  at  dealing  with   the  Neolithic   foods   than  ours   are.   I  don’t  think  there's  any  doubt  that  the  folks  that  have  played  around  with  this   -­‐-­‐   we've   had   a   number   of   threads   on   my   blog,   and   I   think   the  Performance   Menu   had   a   little   bit   of   this   stuff.   People   who   just   start  prepping  like  a  pureed  chicken  and  meat  and  fish  and  sweet  potatoes  and  

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fruit,  and  basically  just  stick  with  those  Paleo  type  foods  but  pureed  them  into  a  mush,  and  then  feed  it  to  the  little  buggers  and  they  do  great.  They  do  wonderfully  on  that.    

    A  personal  bias,  like  this  is  -­‐-­‐  people  can  either  say  I'm  super  extreme  or  

over  the  top  or  whatever,  but  Tyler  asked  so  this  is  what  I  -­‐-­‐  if  it  was  me  when   we   have   kids,   what   I'm   going   to   try   to   do   is   keep   them   off   of  Neolithic   foods   as   long   as   I   can.   I'm   not   going   to  make   them   neurotic  about  it  or  make  it  a  big  issue,  but  just  to  the  degree  that  we  have  some  control  over  that,  we're  just  generally  not  going  to  have  that  stuff  in  the  house.  If  they  go  over  to  a  friend's  house,  then  that's  fine,  and  we'll  just  kind  of  deal  with  that  as  it  rolls.  But  I  just  can't  find  any  compelling  reason  to   throw   that   stuff   in   the  mix.   It   just  does  not  make   sense   to  me  at  all  given  the  alternatives  that  we  have.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  It's  a  good  question  though.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah,  very  common  question.      Andy  Deas:   I  can  always  see  your  children  running  little  shirts  to  school  like,  "Please  

don’t  feed  me  any  grains."    Robb  Wolf:   Yes.      Andy  Deas:   It  will  be  a  rough  childhood  for  them.  That  is  for  sure.    Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  man!  They'll  have  to  learn  jiu-­‐jitsu  and  kickboxing  early  so  yeah.    Andy  Deas:   Awesome.  All   right,  moving  on.  Next,  we  got  a  question   from  Steve.  He  

says  he  understands  that  green  beans  are  forbidden  in  the  Paleo  diet,  but  can't   figure   out   why.   He   thought   legumes   were   generally   avoided  because   of   their   contribution   to   acid   in   the   kidney,   but   green   beans  appear   to  have  a  strong,  net  base  effect.   If   the  problem   is..."  How  am   I  saying  this  word?    

 Robb  Wolf:   Lechitin.    Andy  Deas:   Yes,  thank  you,  "...lechitin,  that  confuses  me  too,  because  don't  egg  yolks  

have   lechitin   in   them,   which   is   used   as   an   emulsifier   when   making  mayonnaise?"  

 Robb  Wolf:   Ah,  okay.  So  what  I  see  -­‐-­‐  see  this  confusing  lecithin,  you  wrote  lecithin  in  

there.   Lecithin   is   a   type   of   fat   emulsifying   soapy   kind   of   substance.  There's  lecithin  in  soy.  There's  lecithin  in  eggs.  It's  got  a  polar  and  a  non-­‐

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polar   and   it   works   exactly   like   soap.   Soap   allows   oil   and   water   to   mix  because   it  makes  a   kind  of   a   vacuole  or   a   cell   around   fat   globules,   and  then   is   able   to   be   dissolved   or   suspended   in   water.   That's   very   much  what   lecithin   does.   But   he   seems   confusing   lecithin  with   lectins.  Which  lectins  are   in  fact  an   issue   in   legumes.  So  those  are   just  two  completely  different  things.    

    Green  beans   I   think   in   the  whole   legume  deal,   it's  probably  pretty  darn  

benign   comparatively.   I   eat   beans   all   the   time.   I   don’t   really   think   too  much  of   it.  They  are  easy  one,  particularly  when  you're  on   the   road,   to  track   down.   At   least   I   know   they're   comparatively   plain   and   somewhat  nutritious  and  all  that.  I  think  it's  more  like  green  beans,  black  beans,  and  all  that  jive  that  you  really  see  some  very  high  in  lectin  content.  So  that's  the  story  with  that.    

 Andy  Deas:   I'm  going  to  give  you  30  seconds  to  further  elaborate  on  why  the  lectins  

are  a  problem  since  we're  already  on  this  topic.    Robb  Wolf:   Ah,  the  lectins  are  gut  irritants.  So  it's  similar  to  gluten.  There  are  a  ton  of  

different   specific  gut   irritants.  We  see   them   in   the  nightshades,  and  we  see  them  in  things  like  white  potatoes,  alamines,  but  these  gut  irritating  elements,   they're   not   dangerous.     Just   a   bunch   of   different   things   that  interact  with  the  gut  wall  and  can  cause  problems,  and  then  in  grains  and  legumes,   it's   a   class   of  molecules   that  we   call   lectins  which   are   usually  involved   with   cell   surface   recognition.   They   can   cause   a   heck   of   a  problem  with  our  gut  lining.    

 Andy  Deas:   Well  done.  Under  30  seconds,  Robb.    Robb  Wolf:   Perfect.  That  would  be  a  first.      Andy  Deas:   That's  got  to  be  a  -­‐-­‐  we're  making  progress  here.      Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.    Andy  Deas:   One  step  at  a  time.  But  that  was  a  good  question,  and  I  think  most  of  the  

folks   that   I   know   similar   to   you  on   the  Paleo  diet,   don’t   really   seem   to  have  problems  with   green  beans.   I   don’t   see   it   as   being   a   big   issue   for  most  people.  

 Robb  Wolf:   No,   no,   and   again,   good   acid   base   load,   low   glycemic   load,   and   nice  

antioxidants  in  it,  like  I  wouldn’t  sweat  green  beans  and  all.      Andy  Deas:   And  it  tastes  yummy.  

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 Robb  Wolf:   And   it   tastes   great.   If   you   legitimately   had   some   sort   of   autoimmune;  

issue,   lupus,   rheumatoid   arthritis,   something   along   that   line  where   you  just  generally  did  not   feel  all   that  great  and  you  had  been  eating  green  beans,  sure  it's  maybe  something  to  delete,  but  I  just  don’t  see  that  being  a  real  big  issue.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yup.  All   right.  Good.  Next  question   is   from  Ryan,   and  basically  what  he  

wants   to  know   is  he  recently  came  across  a  beef  protein   isolate   (gluten  free)   from   Olympian   Labs,   and   he   wants   to   get   your   thoughts   on   this  specific  product.  Good  or  bad?  Any  opinions?  

 Robb  Wolf:   I   would   really   need   to   look   at   this   to   see   what   exactly   it   is.   If   it's   like  

bovine  serum  albumin,  then  that's  another  fraction  of  milk,  and  as  Loren  Cordain  loves  to  point  out,  milk  is  just  filtered  blood,  cow  blood.  There's  a  great  visual  for  you  to  contemplate  when  you're  swigging  down  a  jug  of  milk   or   taking   in   some   whey   protein.   I   think   all   this   stuff   has   an  appropriate  places  for  the  right  people  and  usually  right  people  are  folks  that   are   lean,   don’t   have   any   inflammatory   issues   and   all   that   sort   of  stuff.   I   would   really   need   to   check   out   the   beef   protein   isolate   from  Olympian  Labs.   I  did  not   check   that  out  before.   Let  me  see   if   I   can  pull  that  up  here  really  quick  while  we're  jabbering.    

    Andy  D,  do  you  have  any   thoughts  on   that   just  as  a  network   time  killer  

while  I'm  trying  to  track  this  down.      Andy  Deas:   No,  I'm  just  laughing  at  the  milk  is  filtered  cow's  blood  because  I  actually  

hadn’t  heard  that.      Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  you  didn't?  Oh,  yeah,  that  was  kind  of  classic  Loren  Cordain  line  out  

of  the  very  first  Paleo  brands  talk  down  in  San  Diego.    Andy  Deas:   Okay.  And  then  also  it  reminds  of  -­‐-­‐  what's  the  name  of  the  tribe  in  Africa  

where  they  stab  the  cow  in  the  jugular  and  drink  the  blood?    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah,  the  Pastarolis.  It's  not  the  Ache.  It's  the  -­‐-­‐      Andy  Deas:   I  want  to  say  it  starts  with  an  M  but  I  can't  totally  -­‐-­‐      Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  the  Maasai,  the  Maasai.    Andy  Deas:   Yes.      

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Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.  So  that's  an  interesting  deal  too.  I  mean  they  live  exclusively  on  like  yogurt   from   cow's  milk,   and   then   they  will   puncture   the   jugular   of   the  cow,  get  blood  out  of  it,  and  then  whip  that  into  kind  of  a  yogurty  sort  of  thing  and  eat   it.  That   is  mainly  what  they  eat,  but  they  are  much  taller,  stronger,  and  healthier  than  all  the  agrarian  tribes  that  live  around  them  so....  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  And  if  you  Google  it,  you  can  see  some  pretty  interesting  video  of  

that  online.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah.  So  checking  out  this  beef  protein  isolate  comes  -­‐-­‐  26%  of  the  

content   comes   from   ground   beef.   It   sounds   like   they’ve   just   taken   like  ground  beef  and  then  dehydrated  it  and  put  it  into  a  protein  powder  gig.  I  don’t  know.  I  mean  it  sounds  horribly  disgusting  to  me.  I'm  sure  Olympian  Labs  would  love  that  endorsement.   I've  never  tried  it.   It   just  sounds  like  they're   taking   standard   beef   protein,   slicing   and   dicing   it   down,   and  adding  some  enzymatic  digestion  on  it,  and  then  turning  it  into  a  protein  powder.   But   I   guess   that's   not   too   much   more   gross   than   taking   and  filtering  cow's  blood  and  making  whey  protein  out  of  it.  So  I  don’t  know.  You   have   a   shot   like   all   liquid   foods,   it's   still   going   to   have   some  insulinogenic   issues.   So   if   an   individual   is   not   lean  or   fit,   they  have   any  type  of  inflammation;  I  don’t  really  see  it  doing  them  any  favors  there.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  I  think  the  other  part  of  Ryan's  question  which  maybe  we  can  just  

touch  on  specifically  is  -­‐-­‐  I  think  a  lot  of  people  have  brought  up  the  fact  that  when  you  did   your  mass   gain   you   took   the   Isoflex   chocolate  whey  protein,   and   I   think   people   have   taken   that   to   mean   that   that   is   an  endorsement  of  that  specific  brand  or  type  of  protein.  I'm  not  sure  that  it  really  was.    

 Robb  Wolf:   It  was   just   a   clean   guaranteed   to   be   gluten-­‐free   form  of  whey   protein.  

That  was  it.  That  was  the  totality  of  it.    Andy  Deas:   Yeah,  I  think  the  tough  thing,  as  we  found  out  during  the  Lou  Mars  event,  

to  find  a  gluten-­‐free  protein  powder  can  at  times  be  very  complicated.      Robb  Wolf:   Yeah  because  we  did  Lou  a  shake  that  was  donated,  very  nicely  donated  

to  us   from  a   local  Nutrishop,  but   then  we  gave   Lou   -­‐-­‐   like  we  mixed   it,  took  a   swig  of   it,   tasted   it   and  Andy  and   I  were   like,   "Okay,   that   tastes  pretty  good."  And  about  30  minutes   later  or  15  minutes   later,   I  had  like  pretty   serious   stomach   cramp.   And   then   we   gave   it   to   Lou,   and   30  minutes  later  he  had  a  stomach  cramp,  and  he's  like,  "What  was  in  that?"  Then  I  think  Andy  read  it,  and  he's  like,  "Dude,  there  was  gluten  in  that."  It  was  like  a  gluten  extract  or  like  a  grain  extract.  And  I  was  just  like,  "Oh,  

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my  God!   It's  killing  me."  So  yeah,  and  most  of   these  things  even   if   they  don’t   have   gluten  put   in   it   specifically,   are  made   in   facilities   that   share  equipment   that   also   has   gluten   in   it,   and   so   you   can   get   some  contamination  that  way.  

 Andy  Deas:   Yup.  So  all  right.  Good.  Next,  we  have  question  from  Matt.  He  has  a  client  

that  he's  gotten  to  take  Costco  fish  oil  pretty  regularly  (two  caps  per  meal  three  meals  per  day).   "She   is   very  out  of   shape,  not   really  over  weight,  has  a  lot  of  stress  and  if  she  takes  any  more  than  the  2  caps  of  the  fish  oil  she  has  very   loose  stools.  Other   than   taking   the   fish  oil  with   food  what  can  I  do  to  help  her  and  others  that  may  experience  this  problem  in  the  future?"  

 Robb  Wolf:   Since   they're   going   to   Costco   maybe   stock   them   up   on   a   lot   of   toilet  

paper?   Some   people   have   interestingly   -­‐-­‐   even   though   our   diet   is  generally   overladen   with   omega-­‐6's,   some   people   may   not   need   that  much  omega-­‐3  and/or  like  she  may  actually  need  some  tinkering  of  some  GLA  in  there.  She  may  need  a  longer  chain  omega-­‐6  to  help  balance  the  omega-­‐3.  Even  though  she's  overdone   in  omega-­‐6's  right  now,  that  GLA  actually   regulates   some  of   the   conversion  of   the   good  eicosanoids   that  Barry   Sears   talked   about,   and   they   can   lead   to   loose   stools.   So   that's  where  a  little  bit  of  further  tinkering  might  be  necessary  for  her.  This  is  a  pretty  rare  example.    

    You   know   what?   One   thing   pops   into   my   head   though   now   that   I'm  

talking   about   this,   she   could   also   have   a  mild   fish   intolerance   like   that  long-­‐chain  saturated  fat.  So  the  other  thing  to  try  would  be  a  very  highly  refined  fish  oil  like  Nordic  Naturals  or  -­‐-­‐  I  still  like  Carlson's.  We  had  some  guy  pop  up  on  the  comment  saying  it  was  like  "Carlson's  is  a  seitan."  And  I  was   like,  "Dude,  can  you  substantiate  this?"  And  then  he  disappeared.  So   I   don’t   know   what   the   exact   deal   was   with   that.   But   some   sort   of  pharmaceutical  great  fish  oil  might  be  the  next  step  to  try  with  her,  and  see  if  she  tolerates  that  and  doesn’t  get  a  GI  disturbance  from  it.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah.  Obviously,   I   don’t   think  we're  going   to   reinforce  good  behavior   if  

every  time  she  takes  three,  she  has  loose  stools.      Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,   yeah,   yeah.   But   this   is   a   pretty   rare   deal.   So   those   are   the   two  

thoughts  that  I  have,  and  now  when  I  think  about  it,  it's  probably  more  of  like  a  fish  intolerance  thing  that  it  would  lean  towards  first.  So  I  would  say  step  her  up  to  a  better  quality   fish  oil  which  she's  probably  going  to  be  thrilled  about  that  because  she  bought  her  Costco  fish  oil,  and  then  she’s  going  to  have  to  get  a  different  one.  The  other  one   is  going  to  be  more  expensive,  but  that's  just  the  way  it  goes  so....  

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 Andy  Deas:   Buy  a  small  bottle  to  try.      Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,   buy   a   small   bottle   to   try.   And   maybe   ask   the   folks   at   the  

supplement  place  too,  just  say,  "Hey,  I've  had  problems  with  fish  oil.  Can  I  return   this   if   it  doesn’t  work  out   for  me?"  They  are  usually  pretty  good  about  that  so....  

 Andy  Deas;   Yeah,   I   was   actually   thinking   this   morning,   I   don’t   know   why,   but  

reminding  myself,  when  you  buy  supplements  in  the  beginning,  buy  them  in  small  amounts.  I  have  like  10  jars  of  ZMA  sitting  in  my  closet.  Which  is  great  except  I  only  use  Natural  Calm  generally  before  bed.  Now  I'm  like,  "What  am  I  going  to  do  with  this?"  

 Robb  Wolf:   All  that  stuff,  yeah,  totally.      Andy  Deas:   I'll  figure  something  out.  Anyway,  all  right.      Robb  Wolf:   Well,  throw  a  ZMA  party.  It  will  be  like  a  rave  only  people  will  actually  fall  

asleep  and  still  get  out  and  dance  around  so....      Andy  Deas:   That's   right.   That's   right.   All   right.   Next,   we   got   a   question   from  

Rosemary.   She   attended   nutrition   cert   in   Seattle/Woodville   or   is   that  Woodinville?  

 Robb  Wolf:   Woodinville,  yeah.      Andy  Deas:   Woodinville.  All  right.  It  shows  that  I  know  about  the  Seattle  area.  She  is  

4'  10,"  in  December  '08  weighed  131  lbs,  began  doing  the  zone.  A  couple  of  months  before  the  nutrition  cert,  she  started  doing  Paleo.  For  the  last  10  years,  she's  fluctuated  between  135  and  140  lbs.  Her  current  weight  is  steady  between  98  and  101.  She's  been  getting  allergy  shots  for  the  last  year   for   a   grass   allergy   "and   got   curious   about   whether   or   not   I   was  actually  allergic  to  gluten.  I  know  it's  really  terrible  for  you  but  I  thought  I  would   check   as   an   extra   incentive   to   stay   clear   of   it.   I   was   asked   if   I  wanted  to  check  for  any  other  food  allergies  and  of  course  I  said  yes."    

    Here   are   her   results:   No   reaction   to:   Egg   White,   Milk,   Chicken,  

Baker/Brewer's  Yeast,  Filbert,  Pecan,  Walnut,  Brazil,  sunflower  or  Cashew  nuts.  Then  she  had  a  number  of  reactions  -­‐-­‐   I'm  not  going  to  read  them  all,   but   beef,   lamb,   pork,   et   cetera,   et   cetera.   She   was   not   tested   for  seafood,  vegetables,  fruits  or  spices.  And  frankly,  she's  kind  of  scared  to  find   out   the   results.  Originally,   she  was   very   spooked   about   the   results  

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but  her  doctor  tried  to  reassure  her  that  none  of  these  foods  would  cause  enough  of  a  severe  reaction  to  kill  her.    

    "My   question   is   that   although   eating   these   foods   won't   kill   me,   I'm  

unsure   as   to   what   they're   doing   to   my   insides.   Are   they   causing  inflammation  or  something  else?  I'm  not  a  fan  of  chicken,  but,  I  love,  love  beef.  Did  I  mention  I  love  it?  Your  thoughts  are  appreciated."  This  is  a  girl  after  my  own  heart.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Seriously,  yeah,  we  love  her  too  for  loving  beef  so  much.    Andy  Deas:   And  she  loves  the  new  podcast,  Robb.      Robb  Wolf:   Cool.  Cool.  Well,  she  must  be  listener  number  7.  That  is  awesome.  Yeah,  I  

mean   the   food   allergy   deal   is   kind   of   wacky   thing,   food   allergy,   food  intolerance.  You  can  get  a  -­‐-­‐  if  we  get  any  type  of  a  gut  irritation  -­‐-­‐  let  me  back  up  even  before  that.  Under  the  best  of  circumstances  even  without  gut   irritation,   there's   always   a   potential   of   any   type   of   proteinaceous  thing   that   we   -­‐-­‐   protein   containing   item   somehow   irritating   the   gut   or  being  in  contact  with  the  gut  when  it  is  irritated,  say  like  from  a  virus  or  bacteria   or   something   like   that.  And   then   this   could   then  make   its  way  into  the  body,  and  we  could  become  sensitized  to  it.  And  that  can  either  result  in  a  kind  of  an  autoimmune  kind  of  direction  with  it  or  it  could  be  more   of   an   allergy   type   thing;   allergy   being   a   situation   in   which  histamines  are  released  and  we  get  inflammation  in  that  direction.    

    So   add   to   that   the   complexity   that   a   number   of   these   foods   like   the  

wheat,   the  rye,   the  soy,  peanuts,  oats,  a  bunch  of  these  things  that  she  had   listed   that   she's  actually  allergic   to,   these  are  known  gut   irritants.   I  can   guarantee   that   these   things   are   gut   irritants.   You   combine   eating  these  foods  with  things  like  beef  or  chicken  or  lamb  or  whatever  -­‐-­‐  things  that  normally  we  wouldn’t  very  likely  get  gut  irritation  from,  and  the  fact  that  we've  got  this  combo  of  a  gut  irritating  food  with  a  non-­‐gut  irritating  food,  it  opens  the  door  for  the  non-­‐irritating  food  to  become  a  problem.  And  this  is,  in  my  opinion,  and  there's  a  lot  of  data  to  support  this.  This  is  where   the   potential   for   food   intolerance   is   and   food   sensitivity   starts  popping  up  from  non-­‐Neolithic  foods.    

    I   was   just   reading   last   night   in   account   of   -­‐-­‐   what's   the   guy's   name?  

Vilhjalmur  Stefansson,  the  guy  who  lived  with  Inuit  for  25  years,  ended  up  marrying   an   Inuit   woman   living   among   them.   These   folks   have   a   very,  very  monochromatic  diet.  They  ate  a  couple  of  types  of  fish,  and  they  ate  seal  and  walrus  and  polar  bear.  I  mean  it  was  a  very,  very  limited  in  the  types  of  food  state,  but  we  just  don’t  see  any  type  of  food  intolerance  in  

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these  folks.  So  I  think  that  it's  important  to  kind  of  rotate  your  foods,  but  I   think   it's   more   important   based   off   of   the   irritating   foods   that   we  inevitably   get   exposed   to,   more   than   a   monochromatic   diet   being  specifically  a  problem.    

    My  gut  sense  on  that  is  probably  not  that  big  of  a  deal;  although,  to  the  

degree   that  we   can  get   as  much  variety  as  we   can,   I   think   that's   fine.   I  think   for   her   just   being   very,   very   fastidious   about   avoiding   Neolithic  foods  or  any  type  of  gut  irritating  food.  Maybe  add  in  some,  again,  NOW  Foods   Super   Enzymes.   I   think  Berardi   did   a   piece   on   gluten   intolerance  which   I   wanted   to   address   that   at   some   point   because   I   had   some  disagreements  with   him   on   some   things.   But   he   did  mention   a   type   of  enzyme  product  in  that  write-­‐up  that  apparently  will  help  if  you  get  some  sort   of   cross-­‐contamination   with   the   gluten.   So   like   you   order   some  scramble  eggs  at  a  breakfast  place,  and  it  gets  cooked  on  a  grill  that  had  French  toast  on  it.  It  will  help  prevent  gluten  reaction  that  you're  going  to  have  on  your  own  gut.  So  it's  I  think  stuff  like  that  could  help  too.    

    But   those   are   my   thoughts   on   that.   I   think   that   this   is   more   of   a  

manifestation  of  being  exposed  to  problematic  foods  over  the  course  of  time,   and   I   think   if   she  minimizes   that   stuff,   and   she   goes  on   kind  of   a  rotation,  eat  beef  for  a  week  and  then  pork  for  a  week  and  then  fish  for  a  week   and   lamb   for   a   week,   then   she   doesn’t   eat   beef   for   a   month  essentially.  Even  though  she  loves  beef,  I  think  that  that  might  be  a  nice  way  to  deal  with  this  at  least  for  a  period  of  time.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,   it  would  be   interesting   to   see   if   she  pulled   the  gut   irritating   stuff  

out  that  we're  about  the  grains,  et  cetera,  for  like  nine  months,  and  then  retest   the   allergies,   I'd   be   curious   to   see  what   the   values   came   back   if  they  -­‐-­‐    

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  I  would  be  too.  That  would  be  interesting.    Andy  Deas:   Yeah,   I   think  that  would  be  an   interesting  experiment.  All  right.  That's  a  

good  question.      Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.      Andy  Deas:   We  love  beef  as  well.  I  think  my  favorite  part  of  your  question,  Rosemary  

is   that   "I  was   spooked  but   the  doctor   reassured  me   that  none  of   these  foods  would  cause  enough  of  a  severe  reaction  to  kill  me."  

 Robb  Wolf:   It’s  like,  “Whew!  Okay.”      

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Andy  Deas:   Thank  goodness.      Robb  Wolf:   “Back  to  the  buffet  then.”    Andy  Deas:   All   right.   Next,   we   got   a   question   from   Drew.   Drew   heard   some  

comments  about  how  our  digestive  system  cannot  as  efficiently  process  and   absorb   food   when   we   eat   different   macronutrients   together,   like  meat   and   vegetables.   "This   seems   to   make   some   sense   to   me   in   a  practical  sense  simply  because  it  seems  a  stretch  to  think  that  Paleolithic  humans  beings  would   save  up   their   carbs  when   they  had   some  protein  and  fat  to  eat  them  with.  I  was  just  wondering  what  your  thoughts  on  this  topics   were,   and   whether   it   would   have   any   difference   on   digestion.  Here's  a  link  to  the  page  where  I  first  heard  about  it,"  and  it's  a  CrossFit  Journal  piece   from  Northern   Ireland  with  Dr.  Michael  Ray   talking  about  macronutrients.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Drew  just  needs  to  come  to  grips  with  reality  and  understand  that  every  

meal  since  the  beginning  of  time  must  have  fallen  out  of  trees  in  40,  30,  30  macrobiotic  nutrition.  And  that's  the  reality.  And  if  Drew  can't  come  to  terms  with  this,  then  I  don’t  know.  We're  probably  going  to  have  to  some  sort  of   intervention  on   the  guy.  So  my  non-­‐dick   response   is   that   I   think  there’s  probably  something  to  this.     I   totally   think  he's  on  to  something  good   here.   This   can   obviously   complicate   eating   to   some   degree.   The  food  combining  stuff  gets  a  little  bit  wacky.  But  if  you  noticed  what  they  have  historically  mentioned  is  protein  and  veggies  and  then  like  fruit  kind  of  eaten  alone  and  then  veggies  with  starchy  carbs.    

    So   veggies   kind   of   can   go   either   way.   And   Loren   Cordain,   he's   done   a  

really  cool  job  of  taking  most  of  these  ways  of  eating  like  macrobiotics  or  food   combining   or   different   things   like   that,   and   taking   a   look   at   them  and  trying  to  see  to  what  degree  they  work  and  how  does   it   look  when  we   do   it   through   Paleolithic   kind   of   lens,   and   he   likes   elements   of   the  food  combining  deal.  And  that  you  probably  didn’t  see  a  hunk  of  elk  just  show  -­‐-­‐  you  didn’t  end  up  with  elk  and  sweet  potato  and  -­‐-­‐  five  days  out  of   the  week.   You  will   get   a  whole   bunch   of   one   and   a  whole   bunch   of  another,  and  there  usually  some  kind  of  nutrient  dense  low  carbohydrate  load  vegetable  matter  things  that  kind  of  got  thrown  in  the  mix  here  and  there  depending  on  how  far  north  or  south  latitude  the  individuals  were.    

    That's  pretty  easy  to  wrap  your  mind  around  then  when  you  look  at  the  

potential   digestive   issues   there.   Proteins   and   carbohydrates   definitely  have   different   enzymatic   needs   with   regards   to   digestion.   There's  probably  something  to  it.  When  we  start  looking  at  the  mainstay  of  like  a  cyclic   low   carb   approach,   it   starts   looking   not   too   far   afield   from   this,  

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particularly  even  Mario  V.  Pascual  really  who  I  would  regard  as  one  of  the  big  pioneers   in   the  cyclic   low  carb  approach.  Most  of  your  meals  would  be  protein,  fat,  and  veggies.    

    Occasionally,  you  would  have  a  protein  and  carb  meal  either  like  protein  

and  carb  meal  or  meals.  And  if  you  really  made  the  recommendation  to  minimize  the  amount  of  protein  that  you  took  in  at  those  meals  because  you  were   trying   to   switch   off   the   body,   change   the   amount   of   protein  that  you  were  taking  in  and  really  desensitized  the  carbohydrates.  But  he  also   commented   that   it   seemed   to   help   the   digestion   of   that   whole  scene.  So  I  think  there  are  some  good  wisdom  hidden  in  all  of  that,  and  I  think  it's  certainly  worth  a  try.    

 Andy  Deas:   Since   you   made   that   slight   at   someone   who   will   remain   nameless   or  

whatever.   I   feel   like   I'm   in   Harry   Potter,   poor   Dr.   Sears   here.   Another  question  that's  not  on  the   list,  but   it’s  running  around   in  my  head  since  Drew  asked  this  question,  and  I  think  we  have  said  that  we  believe  that  Barry  Sears  45  grams  of  protein  maximum  per  meal  is  nonsensical.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Right.    Andy  Deas:   But   we   did   have   a   listener   say,   "I   agree   with   that   but   what   is   your  

thoughts  abut  the  reasonable  upper  limits  for  folks?"    Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  man!  That's  just  a  really  interesting  topic.    Shafley  –  Steve  Shafley  has  

a   paper   in   the   past,   and   I   keep   losing   it,   where   they   did   some  experiments  where   they  did   the  bulk  of   the  protein   intake   in  one  meal  like  post-­‐workout,  and  they  actually  ended  up  finding  much,  much  better  total  nitrogen  retention,  total  recovery  and  everything  with  that  singular  meal   than   they   did  with  multiple  meals   throughout   the   day.   The   Barry  Sears  kind  of  early  zone  recommendations  were  right  in  lockstep  with  the  kind  of  fitness  bodybuilding  recommendation  which  were  like  six  or  eight  meals  a  day,  like  constantly  eating.  You  needed  to  fire  your  metabolism,  all  this  stuff,  and  I  think  most  of  us  probably  played  around  with  that.  It  was  neurotic  and  tough  to  do,  and  I  never  really  felt  like  it  worked  all  that  well.    

    It  didn’t  seem  to  do  me  good,  and  then  when  we  start   looking  at  some  

things   like   intermittent   fasting   and   this   punctuated   equilibrium,   Art  DeVany  talks  about  that  a  lot.  It's  not  just  what  we  do  in  a  steady  state,  but  also  in  a  very  dramatic  punctuated  changes  that  really  seem  to  cause  adaptation   and   growth   and   simulate   maintenance,   enzyme   systems   in  our   body,   and   this   doesn’t   play   out   well   for   like   a   real   static   either  macronutrient  intake  or  consistent  calorie  intake.  It's  punctuated.  It's  up  

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and  down.  It's  all  over  the  place.  I  don’t  know  what  the  best  solution  is  on  that.  I  have  no  idea  what  the  upper  limit  is.    

    There's  some  really  interesting  stuff  in  doing  like  one  or  two  large  meals  

and  maybe  making  those  around  your  post-­‐workout  period.  Serge  Nubret  was  a  very  well-­‐known  bodybuilder   in  the   '70s.  He  had  one  meal  a  day,  and  he  ate  like  three  pounds  of  meat  in  a  sitting  in  addition.  He  ate  about  3500  to  3800  calories  in  a  sitting,  and  that  was  the  one  meal  a  day  that  he  did.   Now   does   this   work   for   everybody?   No,   probably   not,   but   there's  some   really   interesting   stuff  when  we   start   thinking   about   intermittent  fasting  and  some  of  the  cellular  stress  mechanisms  that  kick  on.    

    I   know   Matt   Lalonde   has   been   playing   around   with   like   a   pound   of  

chicken  sausage  and  four  duck  eggs  for  breakfast  on  the  weekends,  and  he  basically  does  one  meal  on  these  days  or  one  or  two  meals  on  these  says.  He  does  a  big  breakfast  and  then  maybe  like  a  dinner  later  on  and  that's  it  because  he  wants  to  actually  have  a  life  on  the  weekends  and  run  around  and  not  have  to  worry  about  feeding  and  watering  himself.  And  he  does  great  on  this.  The  dude  just  benched  300  pounds  the  other  day  and  like  175  pounds  and  back  squatting  mid  force  deadllifting  in  around  five.  It's  just  kind  of  a  freaking  nature.  But  it's  working  real  for  him.    

    So  I  don’t  know  what  the  upper  limit  is  on  the  protein  intake.  I  honestly  

don’t  know  for  sure  what  the  perfect  timing  of  all  that  stuff  is.  There  does  seem   to   be   a   lot   of   power   for   taking   advantage   of   that   post-­‐workout  period   for   fueling,   and   there  might   be   some   things   you  have   a   real   big  protein  feeding  in  punctuated  dosage  or  maybe  post-­‐workout.  But  I  don’t  know.  It's  really  interesting  stuff  so....  

 Andy  Deas:   Also,   I  want  to  point  out,  Robb,  whatever  that  clicking  sound   is  on  your  

end.      Robb  Wolf:   Okay.   Well,   maybe   it's   the   flop   of   my   hands   around   and   shaking   my  

hands.  I'm  so  spun  up  about  this  so....    Andy  Deas:   I  thought  that  was  an  interesting  question.      Robb  Wolf:   Totally.    Andy  Deas:   Yeah,   I   think   the  way  Matt   has   handled   it   is   very   interesting  when   you  

look  at  his  food  log  and  then  you  look  at  two  big  meals  on  a  weekends.  It  gives  him  some  flexibility.  I  think  it's  pretty  sneaky.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah,  totally,  totally.  

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 Andy  Deas:   All  right.  Cool.  Next,  we  had  a  question  from  Rachel.  She's  been  listening  

to   the   podcast   and   really   enjoying   the   useful   notes.   "The   last   one  included   the   claim   that   eggs   aren't   good   for   those   with   autoimmune  challenges.  As  I  also  deal  with  autoimmune  thyroid  issues,  this  caught  my  attention.   I've   read   about   how   eggs   are   really   great   nutritionally,   but   I  haven't  seen  anything  about  -­‐-­‐  

 Robb  Wolf:   Lysozyme.    Andy  Deas:   Thank  you.  I'm  so  tired,  "lysozyme  protein  causing  gut  issues  and  leading  

worse   autoimmune   symptoms.   I   looked   it   up   on   Wikipedia,   lysozyme  appears  to  be  a  natural  human  enzyme.  So,  two  questions:  Can  you  point  me   to  where   I'd   find  out  about  eggs  as  an  autoimmune   issue?"  So   let's  start  there.    

 Robb  Wolf:   This  I  got  from  Cordain's  work.  I  would  need  to  do  a  little  bit  of  digging,  

but  this  is  stuff  that  Loren  has  dug  up  on  the  lysozyme  and  the  effect  that  it   has   on   the   gut   lining.   Something   to   remind   people,   like  Wikipedia   is  amazing,  absolutely  amazing,  but  it  also  is  not  a  peer-­‐reviewed  source  of  information.   So   lysozyme   is   a   human   enzymes,   but   it's   also   a   chicken  enzyme.   It's  also  a  beef  enzyme.   It's  a  cat  enzyme.  We  have  superoxide  dysmutates   which   is   antioxidant   enzyme   that's   common   in   all   like  eukaryotic  organisms  I  think.  It's  like  everything  from  yeast  to  a  whale.    

    So   don’t   get   too   caught   up   on  well,   is   this   a   human   enzyme   or  mouse  

enzyme  or  whatever.   There's   a   lot  more   to   it   than   that,   and  Wikipedia  they  may  not  have  the  total  goods  on  that  topic.  So  we  can  dig  that  up,  some  of  the  references  that  Cordain  has  and  put  that  in  the  show  notes.    

 Andy  Deas:   I'm  going  to  make  a  note  here,  Robb,  because  I  know  that's  my  job.      Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.      Andy  Deas:   Robb  is  not  the  details  guy.    Robb  Wolf:   No.  I'm  not  anything  really.  I  have  no  idea.  I  think  the  only  reason  why  I'm  

doing   this   is  everybody  else   took  a  giant  step   the  backwards,  and   I  was  just  kind  of  left  standing  there  so,  yeah.  

 Andy  Deas:   The   last   man   standing.   All   right.   question   2   from   Rachel   is   "You  

recommended  cooking  eggs  thoroughly,  but  I  thought  I  remembered  the  Eades  recommending  eggs  less  cooked  as  somehow  more  healthy.  Is  the  idea  that  cooking  them  breaks  down  this  lysozyme  protein?"  

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 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,   the   thorough   cooking   inactivates   the   lysozyme  protein.   The   issue  

that   the   Eades   had   was   stuff   like   scrambling   eggs   could   oxidize   the  cholesterol   and   oxidized   cholesterol   is   pretty   gnarly   on   the   vascular  lumen,   the   tissues,   the   sensitive   tissues   in   our   vascular   beds.   So   what  we're  talking  about  here  is  probably  more  along  the  lines  of  like  boiling  or  cooking  over  medium  and  stuff  like  that.  Just  frequently  we’ll  get  people  asking  us,   "Hey,   are   raw  eggs   a   good   idea?"   It's   like  no   for   a   variety  of  reasons,   like  they  block  biotin  absorption  because  there's  a  B  vitamin   in  there  that  blocks  biotin  absorption.  And  then  also  there's  this  issue  of  the  lysozyme   potentially   causing   gut   irritation   to   say   nothing   in   getting   a  wicked  dose  of  salmonella  potentially.    

    So   cook   those  eggs.  Don’t  necessarily   scorch   them.  You  know,   if   you’re  

going  to  cook  scrambled  eggs,  a  nice  way  to  do  is  extra  virgin  olive  oil  that  has  loads  of  antioxidants  in  it,  lots  of  flavonoids,  and  you  just  cook  it  with  a  lot  of  olive  oil,  and  you  cook  it  on  low  temperature.  Don’t  scorch  stuff.  That's  the  big  issue.  

 Andy  Deas:   So  you're  ruining  my  day,  Robb,  because   I  only  cook  them   in  bacon  fat.  

Let's  be  honest.      Robb  Wolf:   Well,  that  works  too.  That  works  too.  Just  don’t  scorch  them.      Andy  Deas:   No,  trust  me,  I  won't.  But  raw  eggs  make  for  great  movies,  Robb.    Robb  Wolf:   They  do.   They  do.   But  Rocky   lost   his   first  movies   so  he  probably   had   a  

wicked  bout  of  salmonella  at  some  point.      Andy  Deas:   Dude  still  looks  yoked  at  age  70  so...    Robb  Wolf:   Indeed,  but  I  would  love  to  stumble  onto  his  pharmaceutical  bag  so….    Andy  Deas:   For  sure.  For  sure.      Robb  Wolf:   I  might  finally  crack  190  pounds,  jacked  and  lean  with  Sly  Stallone's  travel  

pouch  so….    Andy  Deas:   All  right.  Moving  on,  a  question  from  Fran,  "In  podcast  7  you  talk  about  a  

hockey  player  who  wanted  to  get  strong  but  wiry,  not  add  lean  mass.  You  mentioned   certain   training   protocols."   So   she   has   two   questions.   (1)  Many  women  also  want   to  get  strong  and  athletic  without  adding  mass  (i.e.   I  don't  want  to  bulk  up).  Could  you  talk  about  how  to  train  females  for  wiry   strength  without   adding  mass?  Maybe   it's   different   than   for   a  

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young   man   like   the   hockey   player?   Maybe   there's   more   leeway   since  women  don't  add  as  much  bulk  in  the  first  place?"  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  there's  a  ton  of  leeway  here,  and  it  sounded  like,  dude,  the  hockey  

player  -­‐-­‐  I'm  blanking  on  his  name,  but  it  sounded  like  he  put  on  muscle  really,   really   easily.   So   this   is   just   not   an   issue.   Occasionally,   I'll   see   a  woman  who  says,  "I  put  on  muscle  real,  real  easily,"  and  you  look  at  her,  and  you're   like,  "Yes,   indeed,  you  do."  But  this   is   like  one   in  a  hundred,  and  it's  more  often  a  non-­‐compliant  diet  person  who  just  still  wants  to  do  a  bunch  of  cardio,  need  a  bunch  of   low  fat   like  Snackwells  and  stuff   like  that.  So  it's  a  really,  really  rare  issue  that's  legit.  

 Andy  Deas:   This  is  the  problem  we  both  wish  we  had.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah,  absolutely.      Andy  Deas:   I  have  a  friend  from  high  school  that  won't  deadlift  because  it  makes  his  

legs  too  big,  and  I'm  like,  "Oh,  I'm  sorry.  I'm  sorry  you  can't  buy  pants.  I'm  really  -­‐-­‐  it  really  breaks  my  heart."  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah,  I  have  no  sympathy  for  that  individual  at  all.    Andy  Deas:   All  right.  Question  2,  "What  is  the  10-­‐by-­‐1  or  8-­‐by-­‐2  training  protocol  you  

mentioned  in  the  context  of  the  hockey  player?"    Robb  Wolf:   Oh,  boy!  Practical  programming  or  something  like  that  would  be  a  good  

place   to   look   for   this   stuff.   The   10-­‐by-­‐1,   8-­‐by-­‐2,   it's   just   a   strength-­‐oriented   comparatively   high   intensity,   relatively   high   one   rep   max  percentage  for  a  particular  lift  done  usually  with  a  reasonable  anywhere  from  one   to   three  minutes   and  not   a   load  of   volume.   So   theory   is   that  you  will  neurologically  get  very,  very  strong  but  not  put  on  a  lot  of  mass.  And  some  of   the   science  and  practice  of   strength   training  by  Zatsiorsky  and   some   other   folks   the   [Inaudible]   [1:11:53]   charts   are   some   good  places  to  look  for  some  info  on  that  too.  This  is  some  fundamental  stuff  that   should   be   covered   in   like   any   type   of   strength   and   conditioning  certification  but  oftentimes  gets  skipped  in  various  localities  but....  

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,   I   think  we're  talking  about   in  context  of   the  hockey  player  who   is  

clearly   a   beast,   and   this   is   often  used   for   our   folks   that   are   like  weight  class  athletes  that  can't  afford  to  really  add  anymore  lean  mass,  but  we  do  them  and  try  to  improve  absolute  strength.    

 

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Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,   totally.   And   of   course,   Pavel   is   a   great   resource   for   all   that   wiry  strength  type  stuff,  so  take  a  look  at  his  Power  to  People  and  all  that  type  of  stuff.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yup.  Good.  Good  question.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.      Andy  Deas:   All  right,  Robb,  the  final  question  of  the  day.      Robb  Wolf:   Whoo-­‐hoo!    Andy  Deas:   We're  going  to  make  it.      Robb  Wolf:   Four   of   the   seven   listeners   have   already   fallen   asleep   so   we'll   have   to  

hurry  this  one  on.  The  other  three  have  GI   irritation  from  all  the  fish  oil  we've  recommended  so....  

 Andy  Deas:   I’m   telling   you,  we   need   some  new   jokes.  We're   dying   here.   I'm   dying.  

Your  poor  wife  is  like,  "Why  are  you  still  talking  about  this?"    Robb  Wolf:   You   just   see   me   every   day   and   so   it   gets   so   used   up   as   opposed   to  

someone  who  listens  to  it  once  a  week.      Andy  Deas:   That's  true.  They  probably  still  think  you're  funny.    Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah,  I    keep  that  veneer  going.      Andy  Deas:   All   right,   the   last  question  from  Jeff.  He   is  a  41-­‐year-­‐old  weighing  about  

150  pounds.  He   just   completed  a   round  of  P90X  and  dropped  about  15  lbs.   in   3  months.   'After   that   round   I   did   some   research   and   have   been  going   Paleo/Primal   based   on  Mark   Sisson's   book,   Primal   Blueprint.   I've  maintained  my  weight  and  now  doing  a  hybrid  of  home  based  workouts  using   P90X  Plus,   KettleBells,   and   a   suspension   system.   I'm   right   around  10%  body  fat.  How  low  should  my  body  fat  get  before  I  should  consider  adding  mass?   I've   heard   it   said   you   should   follow   this   protocol   before  adding  mass."  

 Robb  Wolf:   Oh,   man!   I   think   we're   right   around   that   10%   body   fat   level   and   just  

making   sure  you  don’t  have  a   thing  of   love  handles  going  on,  and   then  you  can  start  up   in   the  caloric   content   really  emphasizing  post-­‐workout  nutrition  to  figure  out  if  you're  going  to  tackle  that  in  a  post-­‐workout  like  cyclic   low  carb   fashion,  post-­‐workout  protein  carb  deal.   If  you're   insulin  

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sensitive,  then  you  can  do  the  protein-­‐carb  thing,  you  can  add  a  gallon  or  a  half  gallon  of  milk  post-­‐workout.    

    There   are   a   couple   of   different   ways   of   tackling   that,   but   if   he   really  

wants  that  mass,  it  sounds  like  what  he's  doing  is  really  good.  But  I  would  definitely  stick  at   least  a  couple  of   legit  heavy   linear  overload  of  barbell  movements   in   there;   a   back   squat,   a   deadlift,   a   press,  maybe   a  way   to  pull  up  in  addition  to  the  stuff  he's  doing;  otherwise,  he’s  just  really  not  going  to  get  that  much  in  the  way  of  a  growth  stimulus  out  of  what  he's  up  to.    

 Andy  Deas:   Yeah,  I  think  this  is  the  one  where  it  would  seem  like  he  could  potentially  

get  a   fair  amount  of  work  capacity  out  of  what  he's  doing  but  probably  not  a  lot  of  absolute  strength.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Right.      Andy  Deas:   And   no   judgment   on   the   P90X   other   than   the   infomercials.   I   never  

watched  the  videos,  but  my  gut  tells  me  that  one  of  the  big  missing  links  in  the  chain  there.    

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah.  Just  some  heavy  strength  training,  but  I  mean  the  P90X  stuff  is  legit  

in  that  it  mixes  a  lot  of  different  stuff  together.  They've  made  it  slick,  kind  of   sexy  advertising  deal  and  people  dig   it.   It's  pretty   interesting.  People  seem  to  do  it  over  the  long  haul.  People  even  drag  their  DVDs  in  the  gyms  to  do  it.  It's  kind  of  wacky  to  me.    

 Andy  Deas:   Well,  it  is  based  on  muscle  confusion,  Robb,  so….    Robb  Wolf:   I  am  totally  confused  then.  I'm  all  about  it  so  yeah.    Andy  Deas:   But   I'd   be   curious   what   suspension   system   Jeff   has;   jungle   gym,   TRX,  

maybe  there's  a  new  one  I  don’t  know  about,  but  anyway  all  legit.  Pick  up  heavy  things  like  Mark  Sisson  says  in  the  Primal  Blueprint.  

 Robb  Wolf:   Yeah,  yeah.    Andy  Deas:   And  with  that,  Robb,  an  hour  and  15  minutes.  Not  too  bad  actually.    Robb  Wolf:   Not  bad,  yeah,  with  a  fair  amount  of  wanderings.    Andy  Deas:   Yeah.   I   feel   pretty   good   for   us   totally   being   sleep   deprived   and   heavily  

caffeinated,  that  we  didn’t  offend  too  many  listeners.      

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Robb  Wolf:   Well,   we   may   go   from   seven   listeners   down   to   two   listeners   by   next  week.  So  we'll  see  how  badly  we  pissed  everybody  off.  Yeah,   I   think  we  navigated  this  one  pretty  good  considering  our  mental  state  so....  

 Andy  Deas:   Awesome.  Well,  with   that,   that   is   the  end  of  episode  12.  Thanks,  Robb.  

And  I'll  talk  to  you  next  week.    Robb  Wolf:   Awesome,  Andy.  Thanks.    Andy  Deas:   All  right.  See  you,  man.    Robb  Wolf:   Bye.