sunday december 24 2017 bloody new battle of british

12/24/2017 Bloody new battle of British Empire as 60 dons write open letter to Nigel Biggar | News | The Times & The Sunday Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bloody-new-battle-of-british-empire-as-60-dons-write-open-letter-to-nigel-biggar-kzj8gvhx3 1/27

Bloody new battle of British Empireas 60 dons write open letter to NigelBiggarA heated academic row over colonialism has led to allegations of bullying

Damian Whitworth

December 23 2017, 12:01am, The Times

sunday december 24 2017



Colonial acts, such as Captain Cook taking New South Wales, were not all bad and should be discussed, says Nigel Biggar, but

many of his colleagues disagree

ANN RONAN PICTURES/PRINT COLLECTOR/GETTY IMAGES

The American professor who triggered an academic dispute over Britain’s colonial

past has accused “petulant and entitled” Oxford academics of running an “anti-

colonial intellectual racket”.

Almost 60 dons, most of them historians, wrote an open letter to Nigel Biggar,

regius professor of moral and pastoral theology at Oxford, denouncing his work

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and his support for Bruce Gilley, who wrote a paper entitled “The case for

colonialism”.

The paper was withdrawn from the journal Third World Quarterly after threats of

violence against the editor.

Professor Biggar wrote an article in The Times headlined “Don’t feel guilty about

our colonial history” in which he said that Professor Gilley was courageous for

calling for a balanced reappraisal of the colonial past.

In their letter the dons said that they would not participate in Professor Biggar’s

project on ethics and empire.

“The haughty response of the various Oxford tutors and graduate students to

Professor Biggar shows just how little debate there has been on colonialism over

the last half century,” Professor Gilley said. “These insular academics have been

talking to one another for so long that they are startled that not everyone shares

their views.”

Professor Gilley, 51, a political scientist at Portland State University, said that the

open letter to Professor Biggar contained “ridiculous critiques” by his colleagues

“which show how unable they are to grapple with di�cult questions of public


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Nigel Biggar wrote an article inThe Times headlined “Don’t feelguilty about our colonial history”TOM PILSTON FOR THE TIMES

policy. Are they seriously arguing that the 379 killed by an irritable British colonel

at Amritsar outweighed the British-led elimination of slave trading?

“Intellectuals, whether poets or dons, do not always represent common sense. The

petulant and entitled tone of the letter by the gowns shows how mortified they are

by the prospect that the anti-colonial intellectual racket that they have been

running for half a century is finally being busted up. Thank goodness we still have

a free society that allows these bubbles to be burst.”

After some students called Professor Biggar bigoted a university spokesman

defended his work and his right to freedom of speech. However, other academics




then wrote the open letter saying that his approach was “too polemical and

simplistic to be taken seriously”.

In an interview at his lodgings in Tom Quad at the heart of Christ Church, it was

clear that the row had shocked him. “I have grown a thicker skin, being an ethicist

but I am not someone who doesn’t doubt himself. When I hear that 60 colleagues

have sent a public letter I think, ‘Oh God, maybe they’re right,’ although normally I

read these things and I think ‘No they’re wrong,’ ” he said.

He knows some of the 60, including one whose o�ce is across the street from his.

“It’s emotionally quite stressful. If you are in the same institution and you have a

disagreement, pick up the phone, send me an email, knock on my door. But for 60

colleagues to sign a public letter — a pretty scathing account of me and my project

— it doesn’t do much for trust. It shouldn’t be your first recourse in trying to

negotiate a disagreement. I feel alienated by it and I feel angry about it.

“It feels to me, on the receiving end of it, [like] bullying. And what does this tell

their students about how to behave if they don’t like something? It’s a debate

between 60 and one. It feels like an attack, it doesn’t feel like an invitation to

conversation.”

The letter criticised the agenda of Professor Biggar’s five-year project of invitation-

only workshops on di�erent empires. “I assume that the agenda they object to is




my starting point that I think empire can mean all sorts of di�erent things ranging

from presiding over the extermination of Aborigines in Australia to the

suppression of the slave trade across the Atlantic and in Africa for over 100 years,

to the fight against fascism in 1940 onwards. I am simply not willing to start where

I think a lot of these academics want me to start.”

He said that the writers of the letter misrepresented his positions to put up “straw

men” to attack. “Nowhere have I argued that the sins of empire are outweighed by

its benefits; I have merely made the point that empire is morally complex and

ambiguous.”

At least one of the signatories of the letter attacking him was involved in the

Rhodes Must Fall campaign, which failed to persuade Oriel College to remove a

statue of Cecil Rhodes, the British imperialist who founded Rhodesia.

The letter said that Professor Biggar’s views “reinforce a pervasive sense that

contemporary inequalities in access to and experience at our university are

underpinned by a complacent, even celebratory attitude towards its imperial past.”

To which Professor Biggar says: “In so far as I have admitted many times the

imperial past involved gross atrocities I am not complacent. Am I celebratory? Yes

of some bits. I am proud we suppressed the slave trade.” He says that the open

letter is “not terribly coherent. Are they saying that a project that is willing to




Bruce Gilley says that many academicscannot grasp difficult questions

acknowledge the good that was done under colonial rule somehow makes non-

white students and professors feel oppressed?

“The way the British view their empire should be a balanced and moderate one and

we should recognise the good things as well as the bad in a way that readers of The

Guardian generally wouldn’t. Am I saying we should try and do it again? No.”

In his article Professor Gilley argued for small new colonies on the coastlines of

Africa and the Middle East. Professor Biggar, 62, said that this suggestion of a

programme of “recolonisation” was “deliberately provocative”. He is a former

chaplain at Oriel College and combines his academic work with his role as a priest

at Christ Church Cathedral and intends to invite Professor Gilley to Oxford. “I

think a lot of people would be interested in hearing him.”

However, he fears that students would try to disrupt a

meeting. “The probability is I would not hold a public

meeting, I would hold it in secret or private and

therefore the wider public would not have the

opportunity to learn. It is a practical certainty we could

expect hostile students to try and disrupt the meeting.

They have done that with college meetings in the past

five years. Freedom of speech behind closed doors is




fine, freedom of speech in public is not so securely supported.”

He says that some of his colleagues are not instilling in students an understanding

that people with di�erent opinions should be heard. “We can all shout and stamp

but people ought to be taught to disagree in a more rational fashion and clearly not

all our students have been taught that.” Professor Gilley said he had no plans to

visit Oxford.

Professor Biggar is worried that colleagues may be deterred from participating in

his ethics and empire project. “There will be peer pressure in certain circles not to

take part in this. Some colleagues who might have taken part now will be nervous.

That’s a loss.”

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Fullpelt 18 hours ago

Argument over British imperialism is nothing new, eg. the term 'Little Englanders' originally

referred to anti-imperialists in the 19th century. When I was a history student about 60 years

ago, the Suez debacle was still fresh in the mind (a final fling at empire according to some),

which raised passions for and against Britain's claims as a world power.

66 comments

+ Follow Post comment

NIGEL BIGGAR

Here’s my reply to those who condemn my

project on ethics and empire

Nigel Biggar

On Wednesday some members of Oxford

University’s history faculty published an open letter

condemning the project on Ethics & Empire that I

lead.

December 23 2017

NIGEL BIGGAR

Don’t feel guilty about our colonial

history

Nigel Biggar

‘For the last 100 years, western colonialism has had a

bad name. It is high time to question this

orthodoxy.” So opens “The Case for Colonialism”...

November 30 2017




tsodade 21 hours ago

Virtually all my professors had contributed to the war e�ort in 1939-45. Some had worked in

secretive government departments, others had served in the forces - two had won the MC,

one was captured in Crete and another (Dutch, not British) was in a forced labour camp in

occupied Holland.

In fact, they had all helped to defend the British Empire. Listen to the newsreel commentaries

of the time. Reports of operations often began with the words, 'British and Empire troops

......', reflecting the make-up of Allied forces.

But despite their personal experience, perhaps because of it, my professors had varying

interpretations of the history of the British Empire. A few were either pro or anti empire, but

most were much more ambivalent - undecided, you might say.

I suspect it's the same now. British imperial history was complex, and most historians have

nuanced views because they've studied the detail. This doesn't suit newspapers and some

commentators who like to see opinions expressed as a simple 'good' or 'bad'.

Recommend Reply

Reading the comments to this article it fills me with a deep sadness at the lack of objective

and critical reasoning shown by the vast number of commenters who seem to have taken

their positions based on free speech and pro empire. what about the views you seek to

support?

It would be interesting to see how many had taken the time to locate the original article by

Bruce Gilley - The case for colonialism, that Professor Biggar sought to promote, I have

included a link here.

https://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/The-Case-for-Colonialism-Third-

World-Quarterly-Bruce-Gilley.pdf




Our man in Bristol 1 day ago

You are entitled to your opinions but a bit of research would help inform these views, also the

article was not withdrawn due to threats of violence but on grounds of academic rigor, again 5

minutes on the internet, maybe the 58 academic dons had read the article and had good

reason to be critical of Professor Biggar.

The true motivators for empire building are namely, belief in one races superiority and a

desire to exploit, as a child of the empire, I can assure you there is no nostalgia for the empire

and the consequences are still being felt today – anyone been to Libya recently.

1 Recommend Reply

modo 21 hours ago

@tsodade That missing apostrophe - '... one races (sic) superiority...' has a really

negative e�ect on your argument. Perhaps unfortunately, most serious participants

in this debate would dismiss your ideas out of hand, instantly, as a result.

Recommend Reply

“The way the British view their empire should be a balanced and moderate one and we

should recognise the good things as well as the bad in a way that readers of The Guardian

generally wouldn’t”.

I am not sure that, “in a way that readers of The Guardian generally wouldn’t” is true.

Comments in the Guardian generally seem to me to reflect a wide range of points of view.

Why does the professor think the opposite? Has he, perhaps, prejudged ‘Guardian readers’

based on his impression of what he thinks Guardian readers would be like?

2 Recommend Reply

anitawales123 23 hours ago

@Our man in Bristol




j h 1 day ago

Perhaps not so much Guardian readers, but it's safe to say that Professor Biggar

would be Billy-no-mates in the tea room at Guardian Towers.

3 Recommend Reply

Scorpio 22 hours ago

@anitawales123

If you actually look into the history of The Guardian and plus the progenitor of the

Manchester Observor and the Peterloo Massacre then CP Scott... it all looks on paper

a respectable "Liberal endeavour".

A larger tragedy now that it has morphed into a "socialist tabloid" over the decades

under the Scott Trust, housing such so called talent as Owen Jones ill informed

journalism, such as this recent example.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/21/tory-britain-solidarity-

thatcherite-individualism

Pure left wing propaganda masquerading as an authentic professional viewpoint.

Finally remember "comment is free" as long as the Scott Trust agrees with it!

The original vision of a "new liberalism" has been corrupted by and insidious branch

of "proto-socialism" and overt cultural Marxism in a dangerous cocktail of printed

and brainwashing collectivism.

Any objective individual is aware of the faults of "The Guardian".

7 Recommend Reply




j h 1 day ago

Woodburner 1 day ago

Findlay Niederle 1 day ago

People who issue death threats must be jailed for a very long time. It can't be that hard totrack them down.

1 Recommend Reply

Keith in Cambridge 21 hours ago

@j h Actually most "death threats" happen to fall within the definition but many areno more than throwaway lines written on the spur of the moment will the fullintention of being crassly abusive, but with no intention at all of following up on thatabuse with action.

Recommend Reply

Sounds like they're all a bit brainwashed to be frank.

3 Recommend Reply

Where would India be today if the" colonialist British" had not built the railways, theMaharajas certainly would not have built them, today they can't even maintain them ,look atthe number of serious crashes they have each year

5 Recommend Reply

Academia is now socialist and therefore has to present a united front against any truth that isnot pravda. The communising of education was infiltrated into Britain and has taken twogenerations but is now totally successful in that any free thinker departing from the partyview is to be struck o� if not eliminated or sent to Coventry or Wales.It is indicative that we never hear of the Italian empire, the Belgian empire, the Chineseempire or the Soviet empire, which were uniformly horrendous, only the British empire,




which was the civilizing force that turned the British Empire into a potentially modern and

vibrant area, the choice of whether this happened or not (compare Kenya with Zimbabwe)

being wholly in the hands of the local successors.

Having spent a considerable time in both West Africa and East Africa shortly after

independence I can state that locals never once told me how bad the British had been, only

that they wanted to govern themselves, warts and all, which seemed a most reasonable idea.

The criticism of the British has come mainly from opposition politicians in the ex-colonies

and the Soviet sponsored academics seeded into British universities and schools. Talking

about Russian interference in British, or even American elections while ignoring this huge

take-over by communism is risible and terminally stupid. Pended at 16:55.

18 Recommend Reply

Jasper 23 hours ago

@Findlay Niederle Well said! I had hoped that dons would encourage debate & accept

that opinions vary. To seek agreement on something that has happened well before

our births should be a key part to any process of education.

It does seem that academics have become so damned arrogant to a degree where

they are now enforcing their beliefs on students rather than seeking debate. This is a

socialism / extremism of views that defies logic & reason. Academics are often

surrounded by an entrenched view of life within their own world of academy - their

broader personal experiences of the world are limited if indeed they exist.

As has been indicated by this 'comment', history has two fundamental sides -

accuracy & inaccuracy. Empires were the manner by which powerful states gained

benefits. I would o�er the point that no Empire provide a Utopian way of life,

though Britain & the British Empire was generally better than that of Spain, Portugal,

France, Germany, Russia / USSR, the Netherlands, Belgium & others. Yes, the British

Empire had bad, through to abominable incidents & behaviour but from all of that




anitawales123 1 day ago

MCGibbo 1 day ago

history it was only the British Empire that has evolved into the Commonwealth - soall must not have been so bloody & horrific. The dons who wrote the letter, which I have not read, need to look at themselves inthe mirror & consider whether their earlier mentors & their predecessors behaved ina similar extreme manner - somehow, I very much doubt it!

6 Recommend Reply

'He says (Professor Gilley) that some of his colleagues are not instilling in students anunderstanding that people with di�erent opinions should be heard. “We can all shout andstamp but people ought to be taught to disagree in a more rational fashion and clearly not allour students have been taught that.''' This is one of the most profoundly sad statements I have ever read regarding our academicinstitutions. And at Oxford, no less. The (no doubt very highly paid) Vice Chancellor of thisinstitution, and others, need to get to grips with this intolerant and deeply malevolent virusof 'no-platforming' and witch-hunting that has infected our universities. The 60 so-called academics that sent the letter should be deeply ashamed, and questionwhether they are educators, or brain-washing bear baiters who are vain enough, and stupidenough to think that popular opinion will condone their behaviour.

14 Recommend Reply

Demolish Bath! Dig up Old North Road!

2 Recommend Reply




Jon Woolery 1 day ago

M'Iomhair 1 day ago

James Stephens 1 day ago

Scorpio 1 day ago

A good number of us Americans some years back took up arms against the UK over some of

its policies, but we’re su�ciently savvy to recognize there had been some positive e�ects of

British colonialism. May those 60 academic snoots get their just deserts: Ridicule.

16 Recommend Reply

in the late 1980s-early 90s when i did my 1st degree in history, the history of imperialism was

always taught in a balanced way. We were expected to debate the pros and cons of

colonialism.

Nobody (except one American who lauded the US's south-and- westward expansion) came

away being pro-imperialism, but we had a much more nuanced view than those who didn't

study History.

I feel deeply sad that the study of this discipline has taken on a Soviet style programme of

forced interpretation and denunciation. And that it must be scholars of my generation who

are behind it.

13 Recommend Reply

The Left don't like it up 'em!

I suggest they tune to ITV3 in ten minutes, Carry on up the Khyber is on.

3 Recommend Reply

"The paper was withdrawn from the journal Third World Quarterly after threats of violence

against the editor."

An "utter disgrace" on both counts the "threat" and the "withdrawal" itself.




Iain Sanders 1 day ago

Radlon 1 day ago

CM 1 day ago

This modus operandi is disturbingly familiar, first outrage, then slander in an attempt todestroy an individual's academic reputation usually attempting to ascend a moral highground through the use of the word "bigot", then as in this case as Professor Bigger has stoodhis ground with merit, violence and the hint of expulsion or ostracisation when this does notresult in the outcome they seek. Equality through domination is not any form of equality at all. These "so called academics" refuse to engage in debate, discourse, or engagement, they are adisgrace to the academic community and to the University of Oxford itself.

18 Recommend Reply

It was the British Empire that fought the empires of the Kaiser, Hitler and the JapaneseEmpire.

15 Recommend Reply

How many people were murdered on the orders of the former President of Zimbabwe andhis then Deputy the President of Zimbabwe? 20,000 or more? Clearly a liberation fromcolonial oppression the 'Oxford Academics' prefer to ignore.

15 Recommend Reply

The Left captures the institutions. The institutions decline and are despised. There's still timeto save yourself, Oxford. You need to champion free speech and the likes of Biggar or die,despised and unmourned. Because you are publicly funded, and the public will not toleratebeing lectured and despised by these left wing fools forever.




Mr Peter Cuthbertson 1 day ago

Peter Hurley 1 day ago

Rehan 1 day ago

Jonathan Gumery 1 day ago

18 Recommend Reply

How sad it is that at Oxford University, one of the world’s foremost institutions for learning,there is fear that students would prevent free speech and debate by the ignorance ofdisruption. I was a student once and one of the everlasting benefits was debate with otherswith whose views I disagreed. It opens minds. Those who fail to understand this should notbe at any university and particularly not the most prestigious. They may have the entrancequalifications but not the maturity and the latter is as important as the former.

10 Recommend Reply

A perfect illustration of how political correctness has imbued academia to its very core, suchthat free debate is no longer tolerated.

7 Recommend Reply

“Nowhere have I argued that the sins of empire are outweighed by its benefits; I have merelymade the point that empire is morally complex and ambiguous.” It is seriously disturbing, especially in an elite academic context, that there are people whoclearly don't understand this.

17 Recommend Reply

Best empire ever.

9 Recommend Reply




Geoff L 1 day ago

JournoList 1 day ago

@Jonathan Gumery So far.

Recommend Reply

It hardly any wonder that our current crop of uni students are snowflakes looking always for

a safe place and no platforming those that do not fall into their personal idea of how the

world is, when we have a bunch of lightweight, snowflake, so-called called history professors,

who have no real idea of the the British Empire, and what it was about.

Britain had the largest ever trading bloc. Moving goods and services around the world. In the

proccess developing undeveloped countries, bringing wealth and civilisation to many.

The most of the world's laws are spread around many parts of the world due to GB's

expansionism.

Prof. Biggar's ideas and views are very sound and should be investigated further not slated

and dismissed by a bunch of very unworldly academics. Disagreements should be proved or

disproved by research and be debated, not aired in open letters. To gang up in such a way is

rank cowardice and shows disrespect.

British rule around the world was generally a force for good. Occasionally something went

wrong, but when doesn't it. Looking at the state of some of our ex-colonies, it may be a good

arguement to re-colonise them.

9 Recommend Reply

Michael Gibbs 1 day ago

@Geo� L





Gladius 1 day ago

James Murdoch 1 day ago

Nigel West 1 day ago

A balanced view and one I, mostly, totally agree with.

2 Recommend Reply

I can o�er unfurnished safe space at a reasonable rent to qualified applicants.The current hoo-ha seems to be the result of failing to appreciate just what a mistake it wasto limit the current admission to just 50%. It's only when the other 50% of the school-leavingcohort are poured into the Uni machine that we will appreciate just how progressiveAcademia is.

1 Recommend Reply

This is what happens when censorship and intolerance from the left is allowed to live in ouruniversities. God only knows what this lot are doing to the young minds who they have suchinfluence over.

13 Recommend Reply

I wonder what those same Dons have to say about the former Soviet Empire?Probably the same as Corbyn I suspect.

7 Recommend Reply

I was in general agreement until the sentence"The way the British view their empire shouldbe a balanced and moderate one and we should recognise the good things as well as the badin a way that readers of The Guardian generally wouldn’t." If that is the level of bigoteddebate he wishes to engage in then I am not surprised that his colleagues find him 'polemical'rather than academically creditable.




Wombat 1 day ago

I read The Guardian and The Times, plus parts of a number of foreign newspapers. I value

the balanced journalism that one or two provide and the biased view promulgated by others

(which illuminate my understanding of others).

Incidentally, his reliance on 'common sense' as a justification for his views would suggest that

he should attend some ethics classes himself.

5 Recommend Reply

Charles Atkinson 1 day ago

modo 1 day ago

@Nigel West So ethics now trumps common sense, so where does enlightenment

come from? From Political Correctness and delivered by the Common Purpose?

3 Recommend Reply

@Nigel West Good post. I don't know enough to judge whether Nigel Biggar is a bigot

or not. As you point out, his characterisation of Guardian readers certainly suggests

that he may well be.

However I'm stunned at the irony of the 60 dons attacking him on the grounds of his

being too polemical!

3 Recommend Reply

A cousin of mine was in Uganda teaching in the time of Idi Amin. An old man said to him

that when the British were there if there was a murder in a village the police arrived,

everyone was interviewed, the loss of a single life was taken seriously. The old man

contrasted that with Uganda under Amin, with bodies floating down the rivers, people shot




Ihatearmchairexperts 1 day ago

Atticus 1 day ago

John Adsett 1 day ago

on a whim for approaching a policemen etc. etc. and no one said anything because now life

was cheap.

32 Recommend Reply

Some people in failed states, such as Aden Colony, have called for the British to return and

bring with them the successful governance and economic prosperity that they once had.

Others who remember the fight for independence are adamant that it was the right thing to

do despite the failures of their own subsequent Governments.

This demonstrates that the colonised themselves are in two minds about the pros and cons of

empire!

16 Recommend Reply


@Ihatearmchairexperts MoTD today: Qatar v. Yemen AFC: Gulf Cup Of Nations

Group Stage

Recommend Reply

To quote George Orwell, “Who controls the present controls the past".

12 Recommend Reply

Isn't "debate" the one of the main purposes of academic life?

15 Recommend Reply




Lightfoot 1 day ago

J McGill 1 day ago

Jon Woolery 21 hours ago

@John Adsett

Only the victors get to write history.

1 Recommend Reply

Keith in Cambridge 1 day ago

@J McGill That used to be a sound adage. But today with the internet, the

vanquished have the opportunity to state their case.

2 Recommend Reply

@John Adsett

Debate certainly is not part of academic life here in the USA, except when both side

argue the leftist line.

Recommend Reply

The British colonies and the Empire were a necessity for British growth and survival. They

were part of national and human development. Since the first man picked up a stick to fight

with, territorial expansion has existed as a means of human survival. Britain was subjected to

invasion and conquest many times. We, today, benefit from those parts of our history.

Today we seem to have created a part of Society that feels compelled to decry our past

because it does not match their idea of what is acceptable today. Those people have a naivety

that is dangerous and one that could ultimately leave us defenceless in a world where the

desire for conquest and expansion still exist.

The world is not a nice place but thanks to our Armed Forces fighting o� our shores, it feels

safe at home. The terrorist attacks we see today are kept to a minimum because of our




Peter Hobday 1 day ago

military, intelligence and police activity internationally. Even today we draw uponrelationships forged under Empire to protect ourselves and to exert influence. The case for Empire can be made and any academic who says otherwise is in denial and theoppressive attitude exerted against this work is illustrative of the worst kind of 'communist'or 'fascist' attitude that you can only discuss that which is allowed; or is it a trait of Empire,the supercilious belief that they are right and must exert their views on everyone.

42 Recommend Reply

Jenesaisquoi 1 day ago

KGS 1 day ago

@Lightfoot re your last parag - the emergence of the PC Empire - I hope thosesupporting and expanding it see the irony of their actions!

6 Recommend Reply

@Lightfoot Excellent post.

6 Recommend Reply

Michael Gibbs 1 day ago

@KGS @Lightfoot

Totally agree.

Recommend Reply




Show More Comments

Biggar is right -- this is a complex issue. My usual approach is to ask those involved. In this

case, it would be the descendents of those in the ex-colonies, as families pass down their

attitudes.

In British ex-colonies (this does not include Ireland) I generally find positive and friendly

attitudes towards the Brits. In those countries colonised for example, by the Spanish,

attitudes are negative. I have seen a History professor quickly bringing his audience to anger

when discussing the Spanish colonisation of Latin America.

17 Recommend Reply

D C 1 day ago

Keith in Cambridge 1 day ago

As someone born and bred in an 'ex-colony', I can only concur with your comments. I

would also add though, that whereever in the world there is a stable democracy and

the rule of law, outside of Europe, Britain has been.

4 Recommend Reply

@Peter Hobday If the behaviour of earlier generations of our people was such a

contemptible thing, why are millions today throwing all their resources into living

among us?

4 Recommend Reply

Peter Hobday 21 hours ago

Exactly. We are basically fair guys it seems.

Recommend Reply




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