shaw, gary | vol (investigation-11/15/13)

Transcript of the Testimony of Gary Shaw

Date: November 15, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 30, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Gary Shaw In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

GARY SHAW

Taken on Friday, November 15, 2013, from 8:52 a.m. to 9:10

a.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626

S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of

Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.


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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn

Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by

SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and

afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.

.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-2

E X H I B I T S

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 GARY SHAW

2 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

3 A. I wanted to talk to you. I'd just as soon

4 avoid conflict if I can, but after I got back

5 to my office and got to thinking about a

6 couple of things there were some things that

7 concerned me a little bit that maybe I should

8 have said that I didn't say, but nothing

9 really any new information as far as our

10 investigation than maybe a little bit of

11 direction. One of the things that you asked

12 me about was my relationship with Mark, and

13 where did you - from what did you derive that

14 I had a relationship with Mark other than

15 what other Council members would have? I

16 mean is there something I said or something

17 somebody else said? And the reason I ask

18 that is I was concerned that maybe you were

19 being guided in your investigation.

20 Q. You mentioned you're pastor of his church, I

21 think that's the relationship.

22 A. Okay. I just wanted to - I guess the thing

23 that I wanted to mention to you, a couple of

24 things as far as the investigation is

25 concerned, for me to have peace it doesn't


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1 take a whole lot because I have faith in

2 people and confidence in people, but I do

3 want us to work really strong about keeping

4 this independent without any influence from

5 staff sources including our City Attorney. I

6 think Brian does an outstanding job on

7 contracts and Council bills and things of

8 this nature. I think sometimes Brian runs

9 outside of his lane, you know, you have lanes

10 that you should operate in and so forth. An

11 example of that was just recently we were

12 doing some re-evaluation in our Public Works

13 Department and there was a re-evaluation of a

14 position with elevated pay for a certain

15 employee. And Brian compared that to the

16 education that some of his people had and so

17 forth, and instead of going to H.R. or the

18 Assistant City Manager who put the program

19 together he sends a letter to the Council and

20 voices his displeasure on that. And there

21 are just some other areas that I've seen.

22 Again I'm very pro-Brian, I'm not against

23 Brian, but I just want to - I guess what I'm

24 saying is that do not allow him to influence

25 your decisions and things that you're making


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1 on this.

2 Q. I don't let anybody influence me. What I get

3 influenced by is what people say. That's why

4 I do it that way.

5 A. I understand that.

6 Q. And people have talked with me not under oath

7 on the phone - I just got a phone call from

8 some attorney concerning someone I wanted to

9 talk with that I can't make come in here and

10 there's a lot of those people I can't make

11 come in here. I can't make any one of you

12 guys come in here, but I can sure make your

13 employees come in. So, you know, there's a

14 lot of things that are popping up. I call

15 them collateral damage, you know, and it

16 happens in these things. If there weren't

17 real deep seated problems we probably

18 wouldn't have gotten to - I would caution all

19 of you, you know, I'm just investigating. I

20 don't make any decisions. I'll report what I

21 see and everything I see.

22 A. And that's exactly what we'd hope for.

23 Q. I mean I don't think anybody is going to be

24 happy with what all we find out. I'll just

25 be honest with you I have information that's


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1 going to make everybody unhappy so I probably

2 wouldn't get another job down here. So it's

3 an unfortunate thing, but there's some deep

4 seated problems I see.

5 A. And we need to be aware of that.

6 Q. I would think that a well intentioned public

7 servant that's on the City Council would

8 certainly want to know a lot of what I'm

9 learning. I would think everyone would want

10 to know that.

11 A. You bet.

12 Q. And then they all need to make their own

13 decisions and follow their own conscience.

14 A. And the report that you'll put together

15 you'll give to the Council the whole, not to

16 Brian or not to the Mayor, but to the

17 Council?

18 Q. Right, yes, nobody gets - one doesn't get

19 these anymore than --

20 A. And I hope you understand I'm not anti-Brian,

21 I'm very pro-Brian, but I think that he's

22 probably another one if he's not on your list

23 to investigate to ask questions about.

24 Q. I did ask questions of him legally on that.

25 A. But that was my main concern.


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1 Q. Everything is being done, as far as I'm

2 concerned everything is consistent with what

3 I normally do in these circumstances, what

4 I've done in a number of other cities and

5 other districts to try to root out - you hear

6 a lot of stories because you try to root out

7 what has basis and fact and then I report -

8 I'm hired by the Council and I report to the

9 Council. Hopefully in closed session. If

10 there is a question I'll be happy to deal

11 with it, but there will be a written report

12 and that's what I'm here for.

13 A. And I hope you don't misconstrue my reason

14 for this. It was just some things that I

15 reviewed when I got back to my office and got

16 to thinking about.

17 Q. I don't have a running number, but I'm

18 probably I would say 20, 25 people that I've

19 already taken statements from and those

20 certainly include the City Manager, the City

21 Attorney, and various other employees, the

22 Police Chief has been in here.

23 A. Don't get me wrong, we've got some great

24 people. There's not any of them that I don't

25 have confidence in. I think there's


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1 sometimes when we get to the position we

2 forget what we're elected to do, those that

3 are elected, and again I'm a great one to

4 believe in running in your own lane and when

5 you get out of your lane is when you get into

6 trouble. One of the things that we talked

7 about and I thought about later was the note

8 that was again probably blown out of

9 proportion, that type of thing, but to me

10 what was on the note wasn't as important.

11 I'm a private fellow. My wife and I are in

12 our 52nd year of marriage, and today if a

13 piece of mail comes to our home and it has

14 her name on it I don't open it. I let her

15 open it. And I guess that in my office

16 people know that I open my mail and things

17 are on my desk. I don't come into somebody

18 else's office and go through their desk or

19 pick things up off their desk, and I don't

20 expect them to do mine. And I guess my

21 concern about that wasn't so much what was on

22 the note, but the fact that somebody felt

23 they had the freedom to come into somebody

24 else's office and take whatever it was.

25 Maybe it didn't, but that's what we were led


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1 to believe happened.

2 Q. Well, that's what City Manager Rohr also told

3 me that he believes that's the most and

4 really primary consideration I'm here for. I

5 don't quite agree with him and his

6 assessment, but if it was on my desk I'd be

7 very concerned and why things got out. So I

8 can tell you you may rest assured that issue

9 will be fully and completely resolved along

10 with a recommendation.

11 A. And I appreciate your efforts. I do. I

12 thank you for being willing to do this.

13 Q. It's not fun.

14 A. Oh, I know it's not. It's time for

15 re-election. I've been on three terms and

16 I'm 72 and I thought about retiring and I've

17 had people calling me saying please don't, we

18 need one more time anyway. My desire is not

19 where I think I'm going to get because I'm on

20 the Council, it's because I want to give back

21 to my community.

22 Q. Yes, the pay that you get is probably not --

23 A. It puts me in another tax bracket.

24 Q. I appreciate and understand, but I haven't

25 talked - I mean all of my information that


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1 I'm questioned on has come right through that

2 machine. Everything. And so you may rest

3 assured that - and that's why I'm doing it

4 this way. I've got some people that could

5 really help this investigation that won't

6 talk to me.

7 A. Is that right?

8 Q. Yes, sir. And I'm very dismayed about that.

9 A. That's too bad, it really is.

10 Q. But if they were City employees they'd be in

11 here, and I can't fire them, but I can

12 certainly say they didn't cooperate and I

13 guess that leaves you guys can do what you

14 want with that.

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. Yeah, I wish everybody would come in here and

17 tell the truth. But sometimes the truth is -

18 you know, I can't look you in the eye and

19 say, oh, you're not telling the truth, or

20 hey, you're telling the truth. You can't do

21 that.

22 A. You're not the mentalist.

23 Q. The scientific evidence is that you can't

24 really tell demeanor. Whether you twitch or

25 all those things are not - that's all Perry


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1 Mason stuff that doesn't bear any - but what

2 does happen is when you get into conflicts

3 where somebody else says those are the things

4 that you can then consider as being, well,

5 you know, there's some question. And if

6 enough of that comes in then there's some

7 credibility issues and I'm not the judge of

8 credibility, I'm going to report and you all

9 are going to judge that. That's what I'm to

10 do.

11 A. And, you know, there's a certain amount of it

12 and you know that, too, being on the outside

13 looking in, but it's just people's nature

14 getting involved in a conflict and you did

15 this to me, I did that to you, or you did

16 this, I'm going to get back.

17 Q. You know, this certainly is a divided city.

18 I can tell you that.

19 A. And, you know, it shouldn't be.

20 Q. It should not be, no.

21 A. It should not be and it hasn't always been

22 that way. No, I served on the Missouri

23 Municipal League Board for several years and

24 made several trips to Jefferson City and one

25 of the things that I found in meeting with


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1 other mayors and so forth was that Joplin

2 really had something going that a lot of them

3 didn't. A lot of them were at odds with

4 their Chambers. Well, we work good with our

5 Chamber. In fact, our Chamber is our

6 economic arm of our city and stuff. But

7 we've just I guess maybe this time on the

8 Council we have some stronger personalities

9 than we've had in the past that caused us --

10 Q. Some reason for division.

11 A. Yes, it does.

12 Q. I think there is a reason why. There is a

13 reason or more reason why the terrible split

14 that's apparent. And, you know, I hope that

15 most of the split has good intentions, but

16 maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I just try

17 to reserve until I get all the facts and make

18 all the conclusions I can possibly make and

19 if there's some recommendations I can make I

20 will do it and you guys are the final

21 decision makers.

22 A. I appreciate your time. Thanks for letting

23 me here again.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. And again I hope I didn't come on like I was


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1 trying to conjure something up, I just wanted

2 to have peace in my mind that I had - when I

3 came I came prepared, I didn't have a pre-set

4 agenda, I came to answer your questions, and

5 when I got back I thought, well, you know,

6 you probably should have at least said

7 something on a couple of lines.

8 Q. And I'll be honest with you I'm not here to

9 answer questions, I'm here to ask them.

10 A. I understand.

11 Q. But I believe that you're my employer, you're

12 one of my bosses that I have facetiously said

13 to several of your co-workers, and it's

14 difficult to - I can't make you guys come in

15 here. I can't. I can only make the City

16 people come in.

17 A. Right.

18 Q. I mean that's the only thing that you've

19 given me, you guys have hopefully voluntarily

20 come in here to tell the truth and if someone

21 doesn't want to come in here I certainly

22 can't make them come in.

23 A. And, you know, the boss thing, that type of

24 thing, it puts you in a hard position. We

25 hire you and you interview us.


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1 Q. I mean it is tough. But that's why it's not

2 the expert that lives by definition 150 miles

3 away, what it really is is I have no

4 preconceived notions of any of you which I am

5 absolutely certain that most lawyers within a

6 50 mile radius of this town will have

7 preconceived notions one way or the other.

8 And it's the way we in law supposedly work is

9 we supposedly get a disinterested judge that

10 has no knowledge of any of the facts, we have

11 a disinterested jury that has never heard

12 about this, and we spend a lot of time trying

13 to poison the jury or not poison the jury

14 depending on what you're trying to do and

15 manipulate them, and what you really want is

16 you want people that have no prior

17 information. With today's media world it's

18 pretty tough to do that so what do you get?

19 Do you get dumb people that don't watch the

20 news or people that don't care about the

21 news, you know. I don't know what the answer

22 is, but the system is designed to work at its

23 best when all the information comes from one

24 source and as from a chair under oath and

25 people in a jury panel if they're the


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1 deciders, in this case the Council, hear all

2 of the facts that come in. Now they're still

3 going to have their internal biases, but

4 hopefully they're a good enough steward to

5 listen to the independent facts that someone

6 else has gathered to rely on for a decision

7 as opposed to some of this biases. And to

8 that extent my question was directed to you,

9 you know, as to what exactly that

10 relationship was because I have heard the

11 relationship through that.

12 A. Sure.

13 Q. And through your own mouth, and I hope that,

14 you know, I'd be foolish if I didn't ask the

15 question so I can evaluate your testimony as

16 well as anybody else's.

17 A. Sure.

18 Q. And that's the purpose. So I appreciate you

19 coming back, Mr. Shaw, and getting whatever

20 was on your mind off your mind. I hope that

21 our discussions have been kept within this

22 room.

23 A. Oh, sure.

24 Q. Just like you hope that I'm being directed

25 mostly from the people right here and not


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1 from outside sources, I hope that our

2 information stays here.

3 A. You bet. When a Councilman asked me the

4 other day if I'd been here and I said yes.

5 Well, what do we do, and I said, well,

6 they're going to have you sign a piece of

7 paper and they're going to listen to what you

8 say. Other than that what you tell is up to

9 you.

10 Q. I appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Shaw, for

11 coming back. I hope I live up to your

12 expectations.

13 A. Oh, there's no doubt you will.

14 Q. Thank you.

15

16 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

17

18

19


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the

15th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

shaw, gary | vol (investigation-11/15/13)

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