sfb tactics archives 2002 part 2 of 2 - amarillo design bureau

SFB TACTICS ARCHIVES2002 Part 2 of 2Copyright © 2002, Amarillo Design Bureau, Inc.===============================================These are the archives of our Discus-BBS tactics discussion,posted during the calendar year 2002. We present thesewithout editing or evaluation, and without any guarantee thatthe tactics expressed here are legal, practical, or effective.===============================================

KZINTI TACTICSBy Robert Snook (Verdick) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 -01:33 pm: Edit

Here's a scenario Glenn and I dreamed up:A Kzinti drone bombardment frigate is heading back to base fordrone reloads and comes across an ISC police ship who is outon patrol and decide to take care of the other before they arereported. How do you think the battle would go? Remember,the Kzinti has no drones, but the ISC has only one F torp. Itsounds like a lopsided bttle, favoring the ISC, but i think theKzinti has a chance.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Thursday, March 21,2002 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Are we talking a DF, or an SDF?

The DF would have a chance - two PH-1, 1 Disr.... but howmany PH-Is does that ISC Pol have?

Maybe give the Kzinti a small number of drones - say 2-6 (roll2d6, divide by two and drop fractions).

You could increase or decrease the drones for balancepurposes.

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 -03:46 pm: Edit

DF. The SDF wouldn't have a chance. No heavy weapons andno drones versus a ECM resistant weapon enemy. I think thePol has about the same phaser suite. Doesn't the Kzinti alsohave two pahser-3's?

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Friday, March 22, 2002 -11:20 am: Edit

Well yes, it does. but who's gonna get to ph-3 range against aship that has plasma when you've got PF-sized shields?

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:08pm: Edit

During the two turns he doesn't have his plasma maybe?

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Friday, March 22, 2002 -12:55 pm: Edit

The point is, why bother when you've got a Disr and 2 ph-I'sand he's only got 2 Ph-I's?

Get in close, and he matches your ph-3s with his.

And he's got better shields. Heck, just about everything hasbetter shields than a Kzin FF (or variant thereof).

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 -07:04 am: Edit

After over a year of restudy and fine tuning i have discoveredthat the Kzinti shotgun is still the best tactic for kzinti's toemploy. Granted I had to refine it a little (thank you guys for therule clarifications).

So here goes.

drone loads are as follows:2 type I mw spd 32 w/ atg and 1/2 ps eternal armor1 type IV mw spd 32 /w atg and 1 ps ext. armor/ 1ps explosive

2 type IV spd 20 atg 1 1/2 expl. 1/2 internal arm2 type I spd 20 atg 1/2 expl 1/2 internal

2 type IV spd 206 type 1 spd 20This load out is for Y178.

Y 179 i bump up 6 restricted drones to spd 32

I still unload 2 spaces from each rack turn 1. I reload them withMW reloads. I end up at end of turn 2 with all three loads of theType I mw in the c-racks, and type Iv Mw in the b racks, 1 gets2 the other has 1.

I now, as part of commander's options, purchase 4 extra deckcrews. These are to answer the challenge that on a closedmap, That I cannot keep my opponent away for the 2necessary turns.

What I do is use the four deck crews plus the 2 that come withmy ship (J4.814) to load 2 spaces of drones on to my shuttles(assuming my ship has 4) during turn 1.

I do this for 2 reasons: first it gives me the option of launching12 drones (6 from the 3 shuttles and 6 from my WS-3scatterpack). Second is rule j2.152 which states that aunarmed shuttle is reported as normal when destroyed. All myshuttles when destroyed report as scatterpacks. Thisguarantees that an opponent will work to destroy my shuttlesduring turn 2 and leave my ship alone.

So i launch my shuttles targeted on my opponent set to open34 hexes from target, all drones target on opponent, and if theytake 1 point of damage they release. i launch them on impules1,3,5, and 7 and they open on impulses 9,11,13 and 15respectively. This gives me 12 drones staggard over severalimpulses for me to use as cover.

Now on turn 3 I line my opponent into my front arc and launchthe first 2 drones of my c-racks. they are usually type 1 mwdrones set to open at range 6. 8 impulses later I launch thenext 4 which are usually all mw drones.

Now if my opponent does as was pointed out in our lastdiscussion, i manuever for the shot on #5 or #3 shielddepending on direction of opponents travel. I take the range 8overload shot and drop the shield with 10-12 internals. now Imanuever with my opponent forcing my opponent to manueveraway or HET. If my opponent manages to get around to fire atme, I launch drones from the racks again.(assuming a newturn) These are the last of my mw's with 1 type IV non-mw fromthe restricted group. This virtually guarantees a victory as myopponent either charges through the drones eliminating mostof their fire power or turns away giving me another shot atrange 8 or better on a rear shield (maybe even same shielddepending on map locations) I score another 10-12 internalsand my ship is almost always running with some shielddamage but no down. This gives me the upper hand i need tofinish my opponents as I keep pressure on them and keep outof their foward arcs.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 01:56pm: Edit

What kind of Kzinti ship is this? It appears to be some type ofcruiser with 2 B racks and 2 C racks. If this is the case, thereare still a few problems.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 -03:14 pm: Edit

First off, only carriers can buy extra deck crews.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 -03:20 pm: Edit

Ummm, no offense but you have no clue. You cannot controlthis many drones and I don't think there are any Kzinti shipswith 4 shuttles. We won't even go into the options youropponent has (like outrunning the type VI drones which onlyhave a range of 12 hexes).

By Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 -06:08 pm: Edit

I think he's hoping to solve the control issue with ATG. But yes,we need more info!

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 -06:38 pm: Edit

Rule J4.816 states that additional deck crews may bepurchased under commander's options (s3.2) this ruleimmmediately follows two rules discussing all ships in general.This and the fact that the commander's options don't saycarrriers only is what gave me the impression that all shipsunder commander's options could purchase up to four deckcrews. Also fighter rules have stuff for non-carriers to reloadfrienddly fighters. My appologies if I misundrstood the rules ondeck crews.

In year 178 almost all Kzinti ships have 2 b and 2 c racks onboard, the ff and up.As for the shuttles, I was attempting to demonstrate that theidea was to load however many shuttles the ship has (uptofour) as scatterpacks by assigning the extra deck crews. Itdoesn't matter how many I have, the idea is to use all of themas scatterpacks as J2.152 prevents any deception onexplosion of shuttles.

Control is not an issue as opponent, if during first 2 turns, isaggressively attacking as was stated last year, destroys theshuttles and or drones. The idea was to remove the firepoweraimed at your ship so that you can survive till racks are readyon turn 3. After turn 3 most you have is 6 drones that are atg at8 that release another 18 at range 6. As dogfight drones don'tneed control, control at that point is moot.

Trying to outrun speed 32 drones from 6 hexes away in yourfoward arc is indead an option, however since my ship isgenerally 3-5 hexes behind the drones it is not viable withoutgiving me the overload shot and/or opponent using a het.Great for the first shot. The second shot is saved until theopponent is approaching your ship so that the drones areagain in the opponents foward arcs. If he closes to 6 again withthe drones he is in the same boat as before and likely givingthe same shot on the same shield.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 -07:25 pm: Edit

The "extra DCs for Carriers only" is something that has beenclarified by SPP online, but I'm not sure where in the rulebookthis is explicitly stated.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June16, 2002 - 12:44 am: Edit

There's a time and a place even for the WW.

If you put up so many drones than I can deal with...don't youthink that is the time for the ED/WW combo!?!...I do...so longas you've put out huge numbers of drones such that loosingthem in the explosion with cost you big time.

It's always good to count Kzinti Drones.If 4 drones are launched and they all break out into 5 Type VIF,just let them hit you...the 40 points of damage you take will bemuch more easily dealt with than actually finding the 60 pointsof damage ( minimum ) to bring them all down ( okay maybekilling 6 of the incoming drones and thus taking 28 damage is abetter idea ).

If you're going fast enough, you can Het ( Reserve WarpPower and a pre-allocated point ) and let those Dogfightdrones pass through their 12 hexes of Endurance.

Since Drones can only sprout Dogfights you know exaclywhat's comming at you.

Zillions of Dogfights only frightens the uninitiated. It's either anillusion that can not hurt you bad or it's beyond his control,either way you can win from those positions.


Actually:

The whole idea of putting 24 drones on the board and thuscausing the other player to get up and say; "you win, I'm goinghome"...smacks of bad sportsmanship.

And each Type IVF MWF cost 6 BPV ( 3.5 for the 5 dogfightMW and 2.5 for the engines ) more than the cost of a simpleType IVF.

At 24 BPV for the 4 you're trying to "russle up" your getting into"my opponent can buy all his refits" or the "my opponent canreplace his CL with a CA" for that kind of BPV realm, which issomething you've really got to look out for.He's likely got a bigger ship than you if you try that stunt...andhe can walk through the damage if he chooses to.


Question?

Can you actually mount external Armour over the MW drone?

That creates a new ESG busting tactic.The Type IV MW XA drone requires 25 points to completelyeliminate.The 20 points of an R0 ESG goes down and there are still thebus drone and 4 type VI drones left.That's 8 actual points of damage to the Lyran or perhaps 4fewer phaser shots.

Why hasn't any body put forward this as the ultimate ESGbuster!?!

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 03:46am: Edit

Probably because it's so bloody expensive.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 04:43am: Edit

The armoured MW drone is not that pricey at 4.5 BPV plusspeed upgrades. But it does consume much of the specialtydrone capabilities, is vulnerable to being picked off as a singledrone, and until fast drones become common it won't hitanything. The bus needs to deposit the submunitions farenough away that a Medium speed drone (dropped to speed12) probably will never make it to the ESG.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 -06:10 am: Edit

interesting point on deck crews, i was unaware of thatclerification. Makes little difference as I do have 2 deck crewsstandard with the ship for shuttle work and still can arm asecond one.

I use 2 type I mw drones spd 32 with 1/2 ps of external armorand 1 type iv speed 32 with 1 ps external armor. To answer thequestion, the only thing listed as not being able to work withexternal armor is internal armor. with 1/2 ps of external armormy type I drones are effectively spd 20, with 1 ps of externalarmor my type IV drones are spd 20 as well. This makes themno more distiguishable than my normal speed 20 drones. Allthree drones release 3 dogifght drones spd 32, as they can bethe same speed as the bus vehicle. This means my type IVdrone has 1 ps of explosive on it. So when My four dronesbreak into 12 VIF you have no idea what the bus vehicles are.

The sportsmanship issue is moot. My goal is to overwhelm myopponent so that I have the advantage of ship to ship firepowerwhile he/she is fending off drones. Isn't this standard Kzintipractice? Sorry, but a WW doesnot effect dogfight drones oncethey are released to own targeting.Unless you WW before thebus vehicle opens but then again how did you know whichwere the Mw drones? I do have other speed 20 drones at mydisposal. And are you really going to ED infront of my ship???that just begs to be blown out of the sky,as the post decelrationperiod means you wont be shooting at my ship giving me aneasy opportunity to close to point blank range and fire fulloverloads into you.

At range 6 my drones cannot be identified during sequence ofplay, as drone release comes after labs and you have to rollgreater than the range, not equal to.

I pay for 3 drones two type 1 and one type 4. the reloads arefree. (fd2.45) which gives me my 6 mw drones, and is why Itake my racks out of service for 2 turns.

And I invented this tactic for use against the lyron esg overrunand found that with a little bit of ease that i could adapt it tohandle almost any race. (tholians are never a good choice formw drones)

But this entire discussion is based upon the reader knowingexactly what my drones are and where they are going. Duringa real game, my opponent makes guesses and choices basedon those guesses that ultimately leads to my victory.

so here is a challenge: someone pick a maximum bpvincluding all drone upgrades, all commander's options, and anyand all refits. post that bpv. I will then tell you what ship andwhat drone loads i have. The map will be a closed standardmap with one ship starting in hex 1701-d, the other in 2530-a.

whomever wants to fly the opposing ship can choose whichone I start in. The year will be 178 or 179 as this is the bestyears to demonstrate the tactic. We will alternate postings onthis site in this discussion board including all ea allocations anddrone types and speeds. this is fair but gives me a distinctdisadvantage as I will not be able to employ any deceptions. Itwon't simulate a real game but it will be a close proximity. I willeven post first if my opponent wants! Any takers??

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 -07:06 am: Edit

I would like to appologize for the end of my last posting. Thechallenge was an attempt at sarcasm and was not verysportsmanlike. I did take a little offense to the Sportsmanshipposting and again I appologize.

Would it be a fair demonstration of the tactic if I posted an eaform that stated Spd 22, power to EM, all racks out of service 2remove 2 spaces of drones each, loading 2 standard type I spd20 drones into a shuttle, all disrupters unpowered and energyinto a het? I post that first and I would be garaunteed not tomake it to the next turn as My opponent would plot sp 31 andfly right at me. The challenge was an insult to serious SFBplayers and I appologize.

But here is a fair question. Assume your ship to be in a hextraveling in a direction of your choice. My ship to be 17 hexesoff your number 2 shield, traveling at a speed of 18 with you inmy front arc. It is impulse 8 and I launch 2 drones at you. SinceI almost never fire before turn 3, lets assume turn 4. Whatwould you do? Assume turn modes and slips are filled for bothships.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 -07:43 am: Edit

Mike for your challenge, I will take it. But the game is PBEM orwhat?Year 178 point value 130 including commanders options.

Let me know when you want to play it.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 12:56 pm:Edit

So i launch my shuttles targeted on my opponent set to open34 hexes from target

I'd recomend launching alot closer with speed 20drones....unless you enjoy watching all your expensive toyslose tracking ~16 impulses after launch.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June16, 2002 - 08:08 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:The sportsmanship issue is moot. My goal is to overwhelm myopponent so that I have the advantage of ship to ship firepowerwhile he/she is fending off drones. Isn't this standard Kzintipractice?------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay...I'm sorry.

Since I first had the Kzinti shotgun explained to me as amethod of winning SFB through the other player surrenderingvictory, I assumed every body played it for that objective.

Over-powering his ADD-Phaser-shield comb, well that'sperfectly legitimate.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June16, 2002 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws):

I've mentioned your name in a Term Paper.

If after reading it, you don't like having your name associatedwith this term paper then post so and I'll post a revised versionwithout mentioning you.

But in truth you did inspire the idea for the term paper.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 -11:51 pm: Edit

Hmmm, a couple of problems, one, the bus vehicle is alwaysdistingished from the sub-munitions (F2.61), two, type VIs don'thave their own lockon until within 8 hexes of their target, andthree, MW drones can't be part of a SP (FD7.12) [although Imay have mixed up which was being launched from what]...

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Monday, June 17, 2002 -07:09 am: Edit

Now I have a question for all of you.

Is it legal to pay for drones this way?

Since I know that I have 20 spaces of drones and that I amgoing to use 5 type IV drones and 10 type 1 drones. I spend7.5 points in year 178 to make all of them spd 20.

Then using commanders options i spend the .5 difference toupgrade to speed 32. as all of my drones are now at speed 20as required by the rules.

The reasons I ask are rules fd2.225 and s3.2221. the first rulestates "when upgrading speed and exchanging sizes ofdrones, take the least expensive result." And the second rulestates that drone speed upgrade charges don't count againstthe limit on commander's options. Exception faster dronesavalaible as restricted or limited. Since the speed 32 is only .5more than the speed 20 it save a whopping 1.5 bpv ofcommander's options. I was just curious.

And as to the challenge. I have a question. Are we consideringthat in year 178 all refits are installed or are we purchasingthem under commanders options. So example a CL+ would bea straight 100 bpv or 96 and 4 points commanders options forthe y175 refit? and pbem would be acceptable.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 08:14am: Edit

You might want to post that question in the Rules Questionthread if you want an official answer.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Monday, June 17, 2002 -08:15 am: Edit

My personal thoughts:Drones speeds and refits are purchased as part of the shippoints and CO's are on top of that. COs can be used topurchase stuff like MW, ext armor and like but not speedupgrades or refits(these are allowed to be purchased as COsin some circumstances but has to be scenario specific).In this challenge case it matters not at all as we are doing a130 bpv and that is it. This includes COs and the like and

allows you to go extreme if you like as COs are not a % of yourship.ie you can take a frigate and after speed upgrades have like40+ points for COs if you wish.On your specific drone calculations mentioned.True that 5+10 spd 20s is 7.5 points and you can upgrade upto 20% to spd 32(and have those same spd 32 reloads inscatters and such or you can reload them if you like).No officers of any kind...well no outstanding officers or crewsetc. Full normal rules(EW and such but no leaky shields, deceldue to damage-no optional rules basically tourney rules withEW).

Sound good? Let me know when you are ready and we'll seeabout getting a moderator etc.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Monday, June 17, 2002 -03:00 pm: Edit

Ready when you are.

Has anyone considered the implications of the shotgun in thefleet setting?

Try this for a headache. Launch 4 mw drones per ship (44drones) followed 8 impulses later by 2 more drones per ship(66 drones now in flight). All 66 drones blossom at the sametime.(tricky but not impossible)puts 264 drones in flightsimultaneously (66 bus vehicles + 198 dogfight drones.) Thisdoesn't even begin to consider a cva with mw drones forfighters. Now that is a drone wave.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 06:02pm: Edit

Under the Commander's rules, I do remember a scenario witha Kzinti squadron vs a Klingon squadron. The four Kzinti shipspumped 18 type-IV MWs at the four Klingon ships. TheKlingons didn't pop out a t-bomb because they didn't wantdisrupter fire through the down shield. Instead, they emptiedtheir ADDs and phasers to shoot down most of the 80 type-VIs.The Kzintis, who closed behind the drones, had overwhelmingdirect firepower.

Points:The Klingons were moving slow, they could neither outrun thedrones, t-bomb them with a dropped mine, nor outrun thecharging Kzintis (alpha strikes into rear shields!).All MWs (and type-VIs) were targeted onto a single Klingonship. It could not weasel, and could not deal with 160 points ofoncoming drone damage.

Lots of fun for the Kzintis, and it only works a few times.

BTW, C-racks have a 12 impulse delay between firings, not 8.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Thursday, June 20, 2002 -12:52 pm: Edit

I knew that, i don't know why I typed it at 8 instead of 12. Mustof been asleep or something.

Listed defenses of the Shotgun so far:

1: Het - not a good choice as it eliminates your het bonus,reduces amount of available power the next turn, and doesn'tprevent a second shot (which you couldn't het from as yourbonus would be gone and you have a 50% chance ofbreakdown.)

2: t-bombs - effective but limited. Also not practical given thatdogfight drones usually start in your FH arcs.

3: fly through the bus vehicles after eliminating some or mostof the dogfights - works but need to id the bus vehicles andtractor/phasor the type IV buses. Does leave you with little orno phaser fire for the launching ship as it closes to 8 or lessduring the same turn.

4: WW - not really an option as you would have to ww theimpulse before the dogfights released and would be guessingas to which drones were mw's. Otherwise you would be wwnormal drones at a range of 6 or more and the opponent shipwould shoot it down and leave you very succeptable to dronehits as your max speed the next turn would be 14. ( 0-4 (duringww); 10 - 14 (current turn after ww)Using the WW inside of 6means that the dogfights released and have their own lock-onwhich isn't broken by a ww.

Again the shotgun is the best drone tactic for kzinti's to employagainst opponents. It is so for numeroues reasons including:

1: Massive drone wave for little or no effort2: virtually guarantees a drone hit3: gives the kzinti an edge in direct firepower as opponent'sweapons are used to defend their ships.4: may force opponent to burn their het giving you an edge inpower the next turn.5: virtually guarantees the range will stay open as the mwdrones can release the next impulse after launch(no 8-impulsedelay as with scatterpacks)

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Thursday, June 20, 2002 -01:43 pm: Edit

Defenses against Shotgun:1. Speed wait til burst and then outrun them. Note you must begoing spd 16 or greater for this option.2. Drop a tbomb and then turn moving stright guiding thedrones into it. Repeat as is necessary. He will run out of MWswarms before you should run out of Tbombs3. take a few on each shield, killing some to get down to the"few" stage.4. Run them over with 2 ESG's up. You may have to fire a fewphasers to assist this.5. Trac a couple and then turn away avoiding R8.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Thursday, June 20,2002 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Michael - will you be taking your drone wave againstsomebody on SFBOL sometime soon?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday,June 20, 2002 - 09:36 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:3: fly through the bus vehicles after eliminating some or mostof the dogfights - works but need to id the bus vehicles andtractor/phasor the type IV buses. Does leave you with little orno phaser fire for the launching ship as it closes to 8 or lessduring the same turn.------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you changed your mind and decided to go with 1 spaceMW in a Type IV drone.

If not, why shoot at the bus vehicle, it can't do any damageonce the Type VI are away unless it has a warhead moduleoccupying one space.

Besides the bus vehicle is already identified. The counternumber of the drone counter stays the same even when thedogfight dronbes are realased.

Also.You only need to het if simply turning away can be made towork...remeber dogfights only have a 12 hex endurance.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, June21, 2002 - 12:23 am: Edit

1: Massive drone wave for little or no effortAt 3.5 BPV plus 1.25 or 2.5 BPV for each double space MWwarhead, you get some very expensive drone waves.

2: virtually guarantees a drone hitAt 2 points of damage per done that hits your ship, who reallycares if one or five did hit.

3: gives the kzinti an edge in direct firepower as opponent'sweapons are used to defend their ships.True unless they choose to take 2 points per drone from everytype VI...if your dogfights only generate up 20 points ofdamage, you'll likely not reduce the Enemy DF levelled at you,one iota and Kzinti ships are balanced on the assumption thatthere will be some reduction in enemy DF weapons, Hence thepenchant in Kzinti design for just 2 Disruptors on their cruisers.

4: may force opponent to burn their het giving you an edge inpower the next turn.What good does it do you to finish the battle with your HETbonus unused!?!If a Kzinti emptied his entire C-racks load just to have amanouver, a bonus and 5 points of power, render all thedrones exhausted, the Kzinti really puts himself "under thepump".

5: virtually guarantees the range will stay open as the mwdrones can release the next impulse after launch(no 8-impulsedelay as with scatterpacks)The 12 hex limit on Dogfights greatly reduced the ability of theMW to release on the impulse after launch.

Don't get me wrong...the single type IV MW is a great anti-SPweapon easily removing 5 of the incomming SP drones...and itcan make life absolute hell against; non-gatling, non-dogfight,armed fighters but as an anti-shipping weapon, it's just notgoing to work well.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 02:01am: Edit

There's also the matter of how you're keeping the enemy fromkilling you while you're spending two turns rearranging yourracks.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday,June 22, 2002 - 01:37 am: Edit

I went through a WALK THROUGH Between a Kzinti BC and aFed NCA in Y181 the other night.

I gave the Fed what looked like a perfect oblique at R4 ( so hecould take all his damage on sheild #2 or #6 from the Kzinti DFand shoved the 4 type IV MWs through his sheild #1 whichwas brought down but no internals.

Then it hit me...since I hadn't fired any Disruptors yet...what ifI'ld work the plan differently?

What if I'ld left the disruptors unpowered and had a HET and a3 hex increase in speed as a mid-turn speed change!?!

I would have walked away with a Full set of R5-8 Overloadedphotons to my #4 or #5 or #3 sheilds and a handful of Ph-1sbut I would be walking around the map with a missing Shield#4 and he with a missing shield #1.

It's a stunt that the other guy will not fall for if he's seen itbefore but it could easily win one battle for you.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 12:36pm: Edit

MJC if you're not going to power disrs I suggest staying outsideof 4 and putting up a brick. Then use the drones to turn himand get behind him, then speed up.

Don't turn your back to your opponent if you can help it, anddont come closer than you need to when facing old photons.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 12:55pm: Edit

Yeah, everybody knows those old photons are better than thenew ones.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 03:03pm: Edit

OverLoaD.

Cheeky bugger.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday,June 22, 2002 - 09:18 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:I gave the Fed what looked like a perfect oblique at R4------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:I would have walked away with a Full set of R5-8 Overloaded------------------------------------------------------------------------

HETing the impulse after the drones strike would have been anR8 shot but you can't garentte that he wont dump his ReserveWarp into movement and go for the charge down.

Once seen a lot more phaser fire will be deployed in destroyingthe dogfights, not just enough to take the rest on the shield.

Or maybe he'll just side sideslip and take the damage on hisOTHER side shield.


2 type I mw spd 32 w/ atg and 1/2 ps eternal armor1 type IV mw spd 32 /w atg and 1 ps ext. armor/ 1ps explosive

That is a direct copy of my first posting this year; note: it showsa type iv mw with 1 ps(space) of explosive on the drone. (thatmeans only 1 ps(space of mw is used.) So to answer thequestion, no i didn't change my mind, i've always only used 1space of mw on my type IV drones.

As for the cost Divide the total bpv by 3 (total number of loadson my ship, 1st load plus the 2 free reloads after y175.) makesthe average bpv per drone only about 2, less expensive thanyour t-bombs for the same total commander's points spent ondrones.

If you employed this tactic correctly in the above example youshould have been able to fire the same impulse the drones hiton the same shield. meaning you should have had all yourweapon firing hit for internals, which is the general idea of thetactic in the first place. Also i will trade a 64 point max photonvolley for a 72 point disrupter/phaser/bus vehicle/dogfightdrone hit the first firing and a guaranteed that I will be able toavoid damage from internals from photons as I have 2 remaingshields I can split fire through that the Fed has to have hisreally weak front shield to fire back through. meaning I willscore more internals than him and eventually win.And yes, I am currently working on my ea for the first turn of anonline battle.

In overload battles the next impulse ability of the mw's torelease virtually guarntees that the opponet saves somephasers. Why? each dogffight that hits internally is resolved asseperate volleys. Meaning you never get off the A track in thedamage chart greatly increasing the odds that you hitweapons/power as you could consievedly roll 6 4's every otherroll meaning you take out 6 phasers.

Let the drones hit you and keep assuming the bus's are all type1's. I'll eat you for lunch after turn 4. And the beauty is that ifyour opponent is indead counting drones and sees only 4drones release 3 dogfights, he/she will probably assume thebuses are harmless and have 24 points hit his shield reducingit to 12 or less. And that same impulse, you get to shootthrough it as damage from drones is after movement butbefore weapons fire in sequence of play and you should be onthe same shield if you worked it correctly.

So we'll see after the battle if knowing the tactic helped myopponent. It usually doesn't as my opponent is usually trying toguess when the dogfights are released and tries to concentratemore on the drones and usually forgets the ship and ends up afloating hulk in space.


As for the sideslip, if the drones are 2 spaces away when yousideslipped then they opened 6 from you and your moving thesame time they are or every other move for them. If they are atrange 1, you are moving every other move with them, and myship is usually moving that same impulse. I sideslip the otherway and am right back on your same shield arc as the dronesand are firing through it, as both ships are firing through a sideshield (#2 or #6.)

try moving with speed 32 drones at a range of 6 in your FA,and get around them without having them hit you. Without thehet you get hit.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 03:27 am:Edit

What rule indicates that each dogfight drone is a separatevolley?

How do you expect to get the drones approaching in the FAarc? Many forms of drone defense rely on an obliqueapproach, precisely to avoid such types of surprises.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 03:43am: Edit

Sharpclaws: How do you expect those bus drones to hit amobile target? With the external armor, the busses only moveat a speed of 12. The drones must also be no closer than

range 2 upon launch if you hope to see the dogfight dronesemerge. Even in the EY, it is almost impossible to secure a hiton a warship with a speed 12 drone launched at range 2. True,there are some exceptions for which such a launch will work:fixed positions lacking special sensors, admin shuttle convoys,monitors, and civillian freighters. But as a general rule, addingexternal armor to a MW drone eliminates the combateffectiveness of the MW drone.

Note also, unless you choose to operate speed 12 dogfightdrones, or have an insanely cooperative opponent, having bothdogfight drones and the bus vehicle hit on the same impulse isimpossible.


Just out of curiousity?

What are the chance that the two EXPLOSIVE bus drones arn'tIDed by the 4 odd labs of the target vessel.

You'll have what a 1 in 36 chance that the other guy doesn'tknow that there is at least one LIVE bus drone headed his way.

The Live bus drones are likely identified and targeted, leavingthe others unattacked ( if one of them were IDed...the C rack Brack difference will probably show a lot about the drones.At 12 points of damage when they arrive and 10 points ofdamage to kill, they'll still be worth the effort.And with only three drones launched each bus vehicle theother guy might try to ADD the bus drones before they getIDed, just in case...it's not like dogfights do a lot of damage toships.


I would also like to mention that:-

A) Extrenal Atrmour is of Limited availibility.

B) External Armour counts as a frame augmentation and not aWarhead augmentation and as such Type IVs with XA shall beworth 2 even if it only carries 0.5 armour spaces.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 -03:37 pm: Edit

Michael Hardy,"In overload battles the next impulse ability of the mw's torelease virtually guarntees that the opponet saves somephasers. Why? each dogffight that hits internally is resolved asseperate volleys."

Is there a rule somewhere stating this? Becuase looking at myset of rules nowhere does it say that Type VI drones each hitas a seperate volley.Stephen

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 -04:19 pm: Edit

Stephen McCann. Methinks Mr. Hardy has used too manySRMs in Battletech

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Monday, June 24, 2002 -09:04 am: Edit

Steve,I believe what he was going for was the difference between DFand drones. In other words the drone hits would give one

volley with the other coming from DF. To note: dogfights arenot individual volleys themselves.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 -03:16 am: Edit

Kerry: Are you referring to a seperate-volley capability for DFdrones, or to the likelihood of the DF drones impacting on adifferent impulse than the buses?

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 -08:40 am: Edit

Just refering that if drones impact on an impulse he is on thatshield he gets two volleys. One from the drones(if the crack theshield) and the other from any DF he cares to fire.In other words the drones impact and tehn their damageoccurs on a different step than DF occurs.I thought this is what Mike was referring to.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, June25, 2002 - 09:32 am: Edit

Yeah...can we leave "DF" as meaning Direct Fire and callDogfight drones either Dogfights or Type VI or possibly evenType 6.


Sorry I see the confusion now. In all my posts DF is for directfire. Dogfight drones are just lumped in with all other drones asthere is no difference in their impact.If 22 dogfight and 2 ti drones impact my D5 I take 68 points ofdamage- all at once in the movement damage step. It is asingle volley through that bearing shield.If in the same impulse my opponent is on that shield and fireshis alpha netting further internals, this will get him 2 distinctsets of internal rolls against me. One for all seeking weaponsthat impacted and the other for any DF damage.


Sorry but your incorrect. the bus vehicles are modified tospeed 32 for both the type 1's and type iv. the type 1 only hasa half space of external armor and consulting the chart infd12.132 that reduces the 1 space type 1 to speed 20. thesame is true for the type iv because it is speed 32 with 1 spaceof external armor and that makes it speed 20 according to thesame chart. sorry if the way i posted the drones confused you.by having them be reduced to speed 20 they areundistuigashable from the other drones on the rack. and theyare no more dificult to have them hit then any other speed 20drones.


you are correct on two points, when i posted that about thedogfights "In overload battles the next impulse ability of themw's to release virtually guarntees that the opponet savessome phasers. Why? each dogffight that hits internally isresolved as seperate volleys"i had just finished a game ofbattletech and mixed the rules a little, hey it was 4 in themorning. however i was trying to state that drones and directfire weapons are seperate internal volleys if in on the sameshield as Kerry so elequeantly stated for me, (thanks kerry).

True 1 and 36 captains won't id the bus vehicles, however inthe posts in this discussion several people made commentsabout flying through the bus vehicles and letting them hit for no

damage. But the point is not to hit with the drones in the firstplace. Example a standard D5 has 2 add, 2 ph-1, 2ph2, and 4ph-3. of all of that only the ph 1 and 2 can fire in the fowardarc. So if I get my opponent to attempt to destroy all of thedrones then he only has 4 disrupters to fire at my ship and Istill have my disrupters and phasers against him, plus i outdrone him 2 to 1.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday,June 29, 2002 - 11:21 pm: Edit

Perhaps you forget that the ADDs have 360° firing arcs?

Yes, "fly through the dogfights" is a legitimate tactic particularlywhen 5 not 3 dofights are launched; fly through bus drones thathave 1 space of explosive module...not so wise.

Since the drone counters don't get confused when theDogfights bloom, the Enemy ship will recognise the bus dronesand the potential for Type IV drones to carry a 1 space MWwarhead AND an explosive module, and thus will id the busdrones.

If he IDs the two Type Is and just assumes the others are thesame, then you may get 24 points of damage to hit home.

Are you really trying to sujest that the Two type I MWs arelaunched an impulse or two before the Type IV MWs in anattempt to get lazy captains or captains that have already triedto ID drones, to fail to ID the second set of drones?

Then I think you should be more clear about how, when andwhich drones are launched.

Hey, I think this tactic should be called the KzintiTrident...rather than the Kzinti Shotgun.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Friday, July 05, 2002 -11:28 am: Edit

You start by launching drones out of your racks to clearspaces, then follow it with scatterpack drones while racks areloading second shot. Since on smaller ships control is normallyan issue, you usually have 2 seperate waves hitting, 1 on turn1, second on turn 2.(max of 6 drones each on ships withoutdouble drone control.) This usually empties the add's as theynever get 32 consecutive impulses to reload. Turn 3 you startlaunching the MW's. First you launch 2 type 1 from the c-racks,followed 12 impulses later by 4 more mw from all racks (2 type1 and 2 type 4). since the add's are empty(or real close) thecaptain usually chooses to run the dogfights out.(burning ahet(90% of the time). Meanwhile your ship launches remaining4 mw's in your racks followed 12 impulses later by the last 2drones in the c rack. (have to wait until previous launcheddrones are at 8(atg).) Now the opponent has to fly backthrough another wave of mw without his add's and het andpretty much is left firepower less protecting his ship(i.e. heuses all but heavy weapons shooting down dogfights and busvehicles and gets nailed by your superior firepower. also hehas slowed down because he has burned his batteries the turnbefore and has upto five points of power less for movement. Asyour ship starts scoring internals as well, the dogfightsbreakthrough, and the last 2 type i's from your c racks hit him.he usually is left pretty messed up, and you can finish him offat your leasure, although I recommend asap.

I call it the shotgun because the dogfights are like little bb'shitting the shields. They are used up close(6 or less), and theycan strip the skin off of a ship(shields). sounds like ashotgun;(up close, lots of bb's, strip you of flesh if it hits youwhen fired)

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 11:59 am:Edit

Or he just oputruns the dogfights and engages you with yourracks empty. Anyone who sees a Kzinti burn that many dronesthat fast, especially on an open map, is going to be sorelytempted to just run them out.

It also seems you're expecting your opponent to just run youdown, and not try a saber dance or plasma ballet.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Friday, July 05, 2002 -12:12 pm: Edit

Sorry, there is an error in my last post. On turn 4, the secondshot of mw drones have 2 type 1 and 1 type 4 and the lastdrone is usually a standard type 4(or maybe one with 1 1/2spaces of internal armor)

Also the posting is a basic tactic, one used on people whohave never heard of it, it can be modified as any tactic to beemployed against any opponent. you can do things like launchthe first load immediately on turn 1, (makes opponents burnhets right away before the battle really develops), load asecond shuttle with 1 drone and launch before realscatterpack(since it is carrying a drone it is revealed as ascatterpack upon destruction, however the amount of drones isnever revealed)

also against opponnents who have seen this tactic, it changestheir normal playing habits, makes them leary of rack launcheddrones, makes them hesitate before closing, and generallykeeps the range open for sniping duals.

By the way, since mw is limited,speed 32 is limited(y178), andexternal armor is limited. the type iv is limited. no matter whichone you choose it is limited (both spaces). My point, rulefd10.66 mixed modules, which states basically that a dronecounts as one drone of the most restrictive type. Meaning thatyou can put as many limited modules as will fit on the drone solong as you count the drone as a limited item. This point seemsto have been missed several times in the last rounds ofpostings. So the type Iv with 1 space external, 1 space mw andspeed 32 counts as only 2 spaces of limited (not 4 or 6).

And consider this when thinking of add's. the dogfights arespeed 32, meaning they are closing with the defending shipevery impulse. The add's get 3 maybe 4 shots each at thedogfights, killing 6-8 of them. They also get 2 - 4 shots each atthe bus vehicles. Still lets 4-6 dogfights through (requires 4-6phasers to stop the 8-12 points of damage)and leaves theadd's with about 4-8 shots left. if they have been firing everyturn like i like to make them, they could run out of ammo whiletrying to defend the ship. Who cares if they are 360 degreefiring, if they are emptied on turn 3, they cannot fire on turn 4,letting the next 9 dogfights take out the enemies phasers(ie hefires them to defend his ship), and still get through (not manycc's and less have 9 phasers on them, (in fact i think only dn'sand bigger have that many phasers on them)), the bus vehiclesget through as well as last shot of type 1's.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 12:39 pm:Edit

And your answer to the Klingon or Lyran who saber dances,taking shots at 15, or dips in for the range 8 oblique is? Thedogfight drones have a very short endurance, so if they breakfurther out they are easily outrun. If you set the bus vehicles tobreak closer, you run the risk of them getting ID'd and shotdown.

You are also completely overlooking the use of T-bombs. Oneor two of them, well-placed and set with proper target countswill vap most of your drones.

And you seem fiated on trying this against Klingons (ADDs).ESGs on a Lyran, especially if you're stringing the drones outall (and if you're not, here comes the T-bomb), also make forfine drone defense. Yes, if he's using them for drone defense,he's not gonna be overruning you with them...but then he'sprobably gonna hangout and gladly swap long-range fire, asthe heavier Lyran ships have much better sniping ability (UIM,more ph-1s).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July05, 2002 - 11:20 pm: Edit

Well what fight are we talking about here?

A Kzinti BC Vs a Fed NCA?

Maybe a Kzinti CS Vs a Fed CAR?

Okay so lets say your Kzinti CS has overloaded the oneDisruptor that can be brought to bear and we are currently atrange 20. I'm moving toward you ( obliqueing are R4 ) at speed16 and you at me at speed 20. Your first wave of drones are atR10 moving speed 20 and second wave is at R14 moving atspeed 20.

I've pre-allocated an entire point of power into transporters.

I drop my forward ( and side if need be ) shield and nextimpulse I beam out to R5 three T-bombs set to ignore all butSize class 7 objects.

Do you fire when I drop my shield?If you do you'll fire one R20 ( 19 maybe ) Ph-1 for about 0.333points of damage and I have 4 BTTY to stop the first 2 points.Even with a standard Disruptor shot at that range, I'll only takean average of 1 point of damage from it and have a maximumdamage of 4 points of which 2 I can stop. At that range even aKzinti BC, if it has facing overloads, can only be expected toinflict 3Ph-1 shots for 1 point of damage.

Do you wait 7 more impulses to fire through my missingforward shield?If so, where are we?I'm 4 hexes closer ( unless I counter-sideslip or some such )and you're 5 hexes closer, putting us at range 11.The first wave of drones have ALL run across the T-bombs andbeen destroyed ( though maybe the bus vehicles are still intact)and impulse or two ago and the second wave is now at R9.You still can't get to fire your overloaded disruptor and the R12Ph-1 shot availible to you has an average damage of 1 pointand a max damage of 3 and my sheild goes up next impulse!

So where do we stand?Unless it is that you plan to HAMMER ME with standarddisruptors, my Fed CAR is looking at a worst case scenario of1 point of internal damage from your Kzinti CS and perhapsanother 1 ( the pre-allocated transporters could have gone intoReo and 2 ( 4 BTTY could generate 4 Reo not 2 if usedproperly ) for maybe 3 points of damage worse off plus 1 pointof internals.And for all that extra damage I get...to destroy 12 incommingdogfight drones and the armoured Type Is that broughtthem...saving me 24 points of damage.

And I still have 2 tractors ( though I can't garrentte I'll haveBTTY to power them, 6 ( though maybe only 4 ) facing Ph-1sand 8 Labs to deal with the two incomming drones.

If one really has to, one can HET and then roll a T-bomb outthe shuttlebay hatch and thus NOT lower a sheilds and stilldestroy the incomming dogfights ( or even bus vehicles ).

T-bombs are a very really solution to the incomming dogfightdrones.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July06, 2002 - 12:11 am: Edit

Okay, so who fires the ADDs at the dogfight drones...I meanreally, your trading fogfight fight drones ( ADD rounds ) fordogfight drones.

Why not trade 2 sheild boxes for a dogfight drone?

Particularly if you can get the first wave on your sheild #6 (through a sideslip ) and the second on you #1 and your DirectFire on your #2 ( though an oblique ).

If you've got C-racks, do you think I somehow forgot thepossiblitlity that the 12-Impulses-Latter-Drones might not be a;Type IV, Type VIa, Type IVA, or ( if you got a lot of a limiteddrones ) Type IV Xa or even a Type IVXA where my ADDsARE MY BEST WEAPON .

I'm going to hold 1 to 2 ADD rounds for each C-rack secondshots.

And what's more, I can have a Scatter Pack or even aDefensive Shatter Pack to clear out any SPs or mass MWs youmight have planned for me.

Expecting the other guy to ADD the dogfights to the point thathe runs out of ammo is assumming the opponent is aSMUCK...and that's one of the best ways to loose a battle.

Hey, did you say, your second C-rack was not an MW?How do you expect the Fed not to pick it.

Also watch your release points.If you release at R1, expect the other guy to play all othergames against you by firing a Pir of R2 Ph-1s at your busdrone and blowing it, and it's dogfights out of the sky....oh,yeah and ADDs work at R3.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Saturday, July 06, 2002 -11:46 am: Edit

I am so glad you guys are mind readers. Your flying your shipwith the for knowledge of what the drones are. For example,you know the second my drones are launched exactly whatthey are. great you pre allocated a point or two of tractor. Youdrop your shields and place a t-bomb, I shoot standarddisrupters do a point or two, get lucky roll a photon hit,turn off,go erratic with full ecm, and watch you waste a t-bomb on 4standard type 1's, that all happened to be general availabilityitems. Why? because this particular time I decided not to usethe shotgun and you sure thought I was.

My point. Until the drones release at a range of 6, you have noclue what they are, so unless you are always playing a defenseagainst shotgun, I.e throwing t-bombs out before drones areId'd, allocating het's, keeping the range open, etc. you aresusesptable to the shotgun. And you are always playingdefensevly(reactively), giving me the initiative and theadvantage.

Let the dogfights hit, 12 dogfights at 2 points each is 24 pointsof damage = standard type 4. A stardard CA, at best canphaser 6 leaving 12 points of damage to get through. Take itplease, I launch 4 drones with the expected damage of 48

points (12 dogfights+two damaging bus vehicles) and you areletting 25% hit. Why wouldn't you use your add's. Oh I forgot,dogifghts are ineffective against ships so why worry aboutthem?

If your going to let 25% of the damage from my drones hit youevery time, I am going to win period. And to prove a pointabout heavier ships, My current PBM game is at 130 bpv. Ichose a Kzinti DWL total bpv for ship, not includuing dronespeeds, 105 bpv. Add the 7.5 mandatory speed 20 upgradesand I am at 112.5. My opponent is a standard D5 fully refited at114 bpv. Assuming he used all type 1 in his racks, withmandatory speed upgrades he is at 120 bpv. I am giving awaya max of 9 bpv without drones, 7.5 with drones. That is notvery much at all. That can happen with any ship matchup,difference is I get to use the shotgun if I choose, Or I can takethat matchup without the shotgun and my opponent will flydefensively.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, July 06, 2002 - 01:07pm: Edit

Who said we were reading minds? We're asking you what youdo when your opponent doesn't do the one thing he has to doto make this tactic work.

A six hex release, unless the opponent is just barreling straighttowards you (which is a bad idea against most any SW shipwith full racks/tubes) is going to give your opponent plenty oftime to turn off and deal with the dogfights (i.e. simply run themout, or roll out a t-bomb if he doesn't quite have enoughspeed).

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:My point. Until the drones release at a range of 6, you have noclue what they are, so unless you are always playing a defenseagainst shotgun, I.e throwing t-bombs out before drones areId'd, allocating het's, keeping the range open, etc. you aresusesptable to the shotgun. And you are always playingdefensevly(reactively), giving me the initiative and theadvantage.------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mean pretty standard tactics against seeking weaponships?

In the duel you mentioned, the D5 capatin would be insane ifhe just charged in, especially given his superior long-rangefirepower, shielding, and power. He is going to keep the rangeopen and wear the DWL down. Not for fear of the shotgun, butfor fear of taking a bunch of drones at once, peroid.

Once again, your shotgun seems to hinge on your opponentlineing you up on his center line and charging right down yourthroat, and not attempt any kind of manuever. Anyone whodoes that against a SW ship deserves what they get...which iswhy you don't see that happen very often.

Playing defensively against a drone ship is not a bad thing.Yeah, they may give up their HET bonus and ADDs and T-bombs and a shatterpack and some shields, but SFB, like allgames, is about resources, and spending those resources inthe most efficent manner possible. The drone ship has alimited number of drones and if, by playing defensively, theydraw the drones out and neutralize most of them, then theoppossing ship will be able to score the kill.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Saturday, July 06, 2002 - 09:23 pm:Edit

Given the need for a turn to load the extra fancy drones intothe racks, I don't see how an ADD armed opponent can't havethe time to reload their ADD racks. Besides which if a droneship fails to launch during a turn with drone spaces still in itsracks, I'll immediately become suspicious (either that or we'reat such a range that drones are irrelevant).

Sure a drone user can often force an opponent to break off anattack run. But standard drones do the job just fine. And onecould argue they're even better since they have 3 turns ofendurance, not the piddly 12 hexes of the dogfight drones.Furthermore, they're much cheaper, allowing the valueableBPV to be used for more effective toys (say a swordfish or twoor even a spearfish).

Don't forget that probes can identify drones out to range 7 (sixhexes of probe movement and then adjacent to the drone).Against a Kzinti, I've done this on occasion, especially if Isuspect drone games (eg drone racks weren't fired for a turnwhen it wasn't necessary to reload them). Sure I can't identifymany drones that way. But even seeing one drone can givemuch information (and/or force the opponent to have asignificant mix of standard drones in the wave, dilluting thepossible effects of the fancy toys).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July06, 2002 - 10:27 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:I am so glad you guys are mind readers. Your flying your shipwith the for knowledge of what the drones are. For example,you know the second my drones are launched exactly whatthey are. great you pre allocated a point or two of tractor. Youdrop your shields and place a t-bomb...------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really...mind readers!?!

You know why my aforementioned Fed CA had Pre-allocated apoint of power into Transporters.Because he was making ( as you can see from the description) a Range 4 ( within transporter range ) oblique at speed 16menaing there was a very real chance that both his vessel andthe target vessel would spend an impulse after the fire withfacing downed sheilds ( depending of 'cause on the Kzintispeed ( which he has no control over)) and the Fed thought,HHhhhmmmmmmm, a point of power isn't hard to allocate toTransporters and with three 1/3 chances of hitting heavyweapons ( I'm betting on the possiblity that guards haven'tbeen placed ) I'm getting far more out of my one point of powerthan simply putting it into movement or even sheildreinforcement.

Now when the Fed CA suddenly saw all 4 drones from the CSin one wave heading toward him, he thought, let me do somecalculations:-1) Am I slow enought not to be in the blast radius of my own T-bombs when the drones run across the T-bombs and can I useOpposed Sideslips to make that possible?2) Are our combined speeds slow enough such that in 8impulses time, I'll still have that facing sheild down but outsideof overload range?If both questions are YES then it's a pretty good idea to spongethe drones from the map, with the T-bomb, even if they are justa set of General avalibility Type IVs.And then he thought, "screw the H&R heavy weapons thingy" Ican save myself firing 6 Ph-1s ( possibly as Ph-3s ) and a pointor two of BTTY power into tractors by changing my plans.

Sure, if You had sent four 2 space sword-fish drones to fire atR7, and you had standard disruptors and kicked in your Ph-1s,

I could walk away with a real "kick in the guts" and wasted a T-bomb on the husks of swordfish drones.

We're not acting like mind readers, read my Term Paper on theKZINTI Trident and you'll see that it's a question mostly ofWHAT can the other guy do assuming he's a competentcaptain.

You are, on the other hand, making assumptions about theother player.1) That he'll assume the 1 space MW bus drone must be aType I bus drone and not a type IV.I wouldn't assume that, that was the case, mostly because I'mquite partial to launching Type IV drones that only have a 1space MW warhead and a regular explosive module ( asmentioned above with the term paper ).2) That he'll forget that you have A) C-racks or B) that you canlaunch again next turn.

This is a big flaw...you can't assume the other guy doesn'tWORK HARD at winning the game or even doesn't know allthe rules.

Rewrite the tactic based on what you would do if it came atyou...and then what you could do, some people have a phobiaabout dogfight drones and then put forward the tactic as, this iswhat you can do, and this is what you must expect and theresult will be around about this or more actually around aboutthese.

For example.Most players see a scatter pack and see 6 drone counters andsay;" I will plan 6Ph-1s to get past that and then I'll carry onwith my attack run."

The SP could have 4 Type VI and 2 Type IV drones of whichall the type VI will be destroyed by an R1 Ph-1 shot but there isa 1/3 chance for each type IV of surviving; granting a 4/9chance of inflicting 24 points of damage and a 1/9 chance ofinflicting a massive 48 points of damage.

But if you say here's a TACTIC of this PSUEDO UNMIXEDSCATTERPACK, then you'll have to come up with something alittle better, your CA opponet could have 8 LABs or maybe only4 ( if he''s a non-Fed CA ), so there's a real chance that he'llspot the slight-of-hand.So you need to either conceed that the tactic is parryable orblockable or you'll need to couple it with something, like...mostcruisers have 4 Labs and because I'll be sending 4 dronesfrom my racks at the target vessel, I am free to assume that hewill not have enough Labs to identify the; Rack Launched ANDSP Drones all in the same turn.

Once you go through and assume the other guy has optionsyou get these wonderful, multi-point conclussions to youressay about your possible results from the tactic. Like:-

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:1) The opponent could turn off; but anything that screws hisattack run is a good thing...right!?!

2) The opponent could ignore the Dogfights and will offer afacing ( if not this turn at some other turn ) shield that is 6sheild boxes less strong than it should be per triplet ofdogfights that he ignores...which is far better for you than thetime honoured...drones are there to reduce enemy phaser fire,tactic.

3) You could possibly get the chance to fire ( Kzinti BC ) 2standard disruptors and 4Ph-1s through a downed sheildinside the R9-12 bracket.

4) The opponet might...just might be a little lazy an assume thebus drones can't harm him.------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tactics essays should be.Consider this, reason it through and then decide if it SUITSYOU.

It should never be...this is an unloosable way the play thegame and you're all playing the game wrong if this isn't yourtactic.

Anyway, the tactic is resonably solid, you just have to either;outline things that must happen...if your Kzinti drones mustcenterline the target vessel at the release point, then say soand admit that it'll be far less effective ( or even totally wasteful) if you don't centreline.

Or admit that individual results may varry given thecoincidence of the varrious events....E.g. say that failure tocentreline will greatly reduce your effectiveness.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July06, 2002 - 11:14 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Let the dogfights hit, 12 dogfights at 2 points each is 24 pointsof damage = standard type 4. A stardard CA, at best canphaser 6 leaving 12 points of damage to get through.------------------------------------------------------------------------

You see this then is the choice.

Do I shoot down 6 of the dogfights with Ph-1s fired as Ph-3s (saving 3 points of power ) and still taking 6 dogfight hits for 12points of damage or do I let all 12 hit me ( for 24 points ofdamage and then get; now or anytime latter this turn, to fire atyour ship, my 6 Ph-1s as Ph-1s @ R5 for 21 points of damage.

So ignoring the Less Recharging of Caps Next Turn thing andignoring the 6 dogfight drones I can't phaser, we are reallytrading 21 points of more damage to the other guy's ship for 12points more damage on your ship.

Most people would say;" Hell yeah...I'll buy into that trade".

Even if the phasers only get to shoot at range 8, they'll betrading in 13 points of offensive damage for 12 points ofdefensive...and hardly anybody would do that.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Sunday, July 07, 2002 -11:59 am: Edit

Good point Mr campbell. However, the tactic is meant to doone thing and one thing only, increase the odds of doingdamage from drones. Any point of damage done to myopponent from drones is better than having my 6 dronesstopped.

Here is something to consider. I launch 4 drones on impulse 28of turn 0. (ws-3). On impulse 17 of turn 1 I launch 1 shuttle. Onimpulse 19 I launch the second. On impulse 1 of turn 2 I amable to start launching more drones as the first 4 have eitherclosed or been destroyed. (have 6 spaces of control mind you.)Condsidering my opponent knows I have 6 spaces of control,and I have 6 possible seeking weapons on the board, would hereally think I have been reloading my racks on turn 1. Rangewas/is still too great for my opponent to have closed withoutcoming in "fully centerlined" and "headon". My opponent cando nothing about the reloading of my racks on turn 1,(without

barreling in, which opens the door for deceptions) andBeacuse I am at my control limit most or all of turn 1, there isno reason to assume that I have been reloading racks,as Ihave had no extra drone firing opportunities. Assuming that myopponent lets the sp's open I now have another turn at which Iam at my max control. First 2 turns are spent with drones frommy racks and scatterpacks. Both of which are going to weardown my opponents resources. possibly removing some or allof his t-bombs, depending on ship and captain. That wouldeliminate the t-bombs as viable defenses. Still leaves my racksunfired and he has had no opportunity to leave his add'sunfired if he has been relying on them.

So those first 4 drones turn out to be 2 type 1 mw, and 1 typeIv mw. My opponent, most likely, after reading these debateswas not expecting to see it, after all I did post I launch on turn 3or later not turn 1. He burns his het off of batteries, and/or useshis t-bombs,or maybe he realizes that the turn is early, phaserssome down, and takes 2-12 points, depending greatly on hismood.

Or maybe I launched standard boring type IV's from my rackson turn 0. Now I reload my racks with a type 1 mw in the bracks(already have a type IV in one of them) and remaining 2type IV's in the c-racks(already have a type 1 in them.) Nowthe first shot on turn 2-3 is 4 type 1 mw drones, followed up by3 type Iv mw and 1 type Iv from the remaining b rack. Myopponent decides to run from the first wave of drones byburning his het/breaking off his attack run, followed by lettingsome of the drones hit/ phasering/add/iding the bus vehicles.Either way I scored damage to his ship without really worryingabout the reprocussions.

Also with 4 drones releasing 3 dogfights each, my opponent isfacing 12 not 6. So deciding not to use his fogfights fordogfights, leaves 24 points to hit his ship. So would myopponent really trade 6 phaser-s to save the extra 12 points for13 extra damage. I think not. If he does he is taking 24 pointsto score 13. Not a very good trade in my opinion. Sorry to say,but my opponent is going to defend his ship, removing theresources from firing at my ship, giving me the firepoweradvantage when I need it the most. So my little toys have nowdone 3 very good things for me.

1. they have increased my odds of drone hitting.2. They have removed some of my opponents resources forlate in the game(batteries, het bonus, t-bombs)3. They gave me an edge in fire power for 1 maybe 2 turns.

All of those combine have greatly increased my odds ofwinning. And is that the name of the game?

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 01:06pm: Edit

Michael, the opponent will not be breaking off his attack run.He;'ll be coming in on the oblique, shoot at you, and turn offanyways, because that's his battle plan and the smart thing todo versus drone users.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, July07, 2002 - 01:43 pm: Edit

M.H.:

Yes...like internal armour and swordfish drones, the trade isSome Damage Done is better than No Damage Done and thusthe tactic holds some validity.I wonder if Swordfish or internal armour or external armourwouldn't yeild more advantage?

As to your drones launched on turn zero...I've never heard ofthat happening ( guess I'll have to look it up )...but if it didhappen, what are the chances that I'll be able to turn ( maybewith a HET but I don't think I would ) and just pull out of R35.I mean there's a very real risk that the drones will loosetracking on impulse 1 of turn one because of the 35 hextracking rule.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 01:54pm: Edit

MJC, (S4.13) is the relevant rule. At WS-III, you are allowed tohave launche done drone per rack on t0/i28. The oppoent wonthave drones on the board tracking you if you're at range 36+,so that's moot, and we're talking baout fast drones, so youwon't be able to outrun.

Scatterpacks at range do have that risk, though.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 08:15 pm:Edit

M.Hardy,IME MWs are best used for anti-drone work or anti-fighterdefense. They are really not suited for anti-ship work.

I think you are preoccupied with getting the maximum # of'drones' out there rather than thinking of what the MW'sthemselves can best do for you.

They occasionally can give a cloaking vessel fits, but generallythey are not a threat to a vessel at combat speeds. Certainlynot once you factor in their cost as well.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, July07, 2002 - 10:08 pm: Edit

A.C.:

First, it sounds like having Fighters on the board, at WS-III orsome blancing factor to go with it.

Second, the Type I MWs and the Type IV MWs that MikeHardy proposses have 0.5 and 1 external armour spacesrespectively.These are actually speed 20 drones I'm moving beyond R35from.

Third, don't I need to be; 35 hexes from either the drones orthe ship for tracking to be lost, so even if I'm out running theship I'll break free of the drones assuming we don't start tooclose or both our vessels are going far too slow?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 10:41pm: Edit

Duh, my bad

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July08, 2002 - 12:05 am: Edit

Michael Hardy:

Your tactic to some extent reminds me of a Gorn ship firing anEnveloping Plasma Torpedo at an on comming FederationCruiser, and then trying to mizia it with some phaser firethough the now downed rear sheilds.

Some captains will turn off to avoid the 60 ( or if both Slaunchers 120 ) points of damage.

But some will pass through the plasma having 20 ( or throughboth 10 ) sheild boxes left on his forward sheild and then getthat range 4 strike he's been looking for ( maybe firing somephasers and a Phot-torp at R5 if he thinks you'll fire yourphasers there and then marching down to R2 to fire theothers).Here passing through the enemy fire allow the Fed to dish up (4 R4 phot-torps and 4 R4 Ph-1s ) about 26 points of internals (more if centerlining ) for a hell of a lot of sheild damage and (2S EPT +5 R4 Ph-1s ) 10 points of internal damage ( 6 if theFed uses BTTY ).

The Fed is comming out a long way ahead if he calmly flysthrough the enveloping plasma.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Monday, July 08, 2002 -08:25 am: Edit

MJCampbell,Um if you run through a pair of envelopers in a turn, in anybattle then you will lose it. True the fed then has 10 pointshields.What do you do with the 20 point f launch then? If you runthrough he will launch it and then phaser through the holeleaving you down too much weaponry to seriously hurt him.Yes you may get internals but it will just scratch him a littlewhile you have a big gaping hole left.Running through a single enveloper if you can get a good shotis OK. Running through 2 is suicide.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, July 08, 2002 - 09:15am: Edit

Kerry,

Depends on the situation, though. If it's pre-plus refit for theGorn, you can trade the two envelopers for a face full ofphotons. With no F's to back it up, plus the loss of phasers he'slikely to take from your strike, it's a good trade to make. I'vedone it myself, and while it's painful, it does work. I onlyrecommend it under certain conditions, though, namely:

- You can get to range 1 and dump your overloads.- It's a duel; no other ships around to pick on your devestatedshields.- The Gorn has no + refit

If these conditions exist, what MJC describes works like achamp.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July09, 2002 - 03:26 am: Edit

It's not something I've ever seen, it's just outlined in the tacticmanual.

You need to be fighting a non plus refit Gorn CA, not a gornBC.You can pull off a very good passing through a G-torpRomulan KR, S-torp Rom KR or even a Rom Wareagle.The Wareagle may be pusshing 100 points of plasma at you,but that's no reason the WW.Enveloping plasma seem a lot more impressive than it actuallyis, most because people see it as an overload funtion forplasma, and OVERLOADs for DF weapons are impressive.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 06:58am: Edit

Well, I have seen it; done it in fact, and had it done to me. Itworks, though as we say, only under certain circumstances.The first time I tried it, I popped the Gorn for almost 60 points

of photon overloads at R1, and followed up with phasers at R0.The game was pretty much over at that point. I did takeinternals from his phasers, but nowhere near as much.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 -06:53 am: Edit

Couple of points. First back to the probe thing. It wassuggested that the a probe be fired at range 7 to identify thedrones before they released. Unfortuantely, g5.22 states that aship using the probe must be within 6 hexes of the object ofstudy. Meaning that the dogfights would release first(mwrelease is before probe launch in sequence of play.) Also theprobe would Identify one bus vehicle not the whole stack, as itwould be considered 1 successful lab check against a dronetarget.(g5.25&g4.23)

It is close to the enveloping tactic, except that It does 2.4 timesthe amount of damage to one shield(not including busvehicles), and leaves the gaping hole in the shield, with theability to fire through it.

On the oblique aproach tactic, As you are not coming at mehead on, I can manuever away from your ship quiteeasily,which keeps the range open from me to you, delayingyour ability to fire when you want. Meanwhile my drones areclosing quite quickly at you (speed 20 + your speed). Thismeans that they are going to open and force you to deal withthem. If you accept their damage, then I am in a lot betterposition to fire at your approaching ship,when I turn into it. I willhave the advantage on you and will willingly exploit it.

If you break your attack run(highly likely as you will want to tryto outrun the dogfights(90% of captains who have posted havesuggested this)), I will use my sudden speed change to obliqueyou at the range of 8 or less and I will hit a shield outside yourmain weapons firing arc. Again my advantage.

These little toys(as they have been called) do nothing but giveme the advantage in the early stages of the game. By turn four,I usually have done quite superior amounts of damage. Why?Because my opponent has wasted most of his offense ondefending his ship, while I have been methodically destroyinghis ship with my disrupters/phasers.

As for keeping the range open, good. I like having you fire atmy ecm drones then my ship, while I fire just atyours(klingon/fed excluded).It is quite nice having the ecmadvantage in duals. When you get tired of the shift and close, Imeet you with the shotgun. It is, after all, a close up weapon.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 07:45am: Edit

M.H.,

Did you ever play this game out? I know you asked forsomeone to play. I was curious what the results where.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 -08:32 am: Edit

We are currently playing it PBEM so the wait should be about 6months to get to the "duscussion" point. So far we have justbeen manuevering, so let me see how it plays out.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Friday, July 12, 2002 -07:18 am: Edit

Actually, I've been using the tactic for about 14 years. Since itwas last year that i was finally able to post it on the discussionboard(finally got internet), many people assume it is a new

tactic. It was the discussion board that pointed out two errors Inthe tactic, both of which I solved. The first was the drone loadout. Originally i was using 2 type 1 and 2 type Iv. The type Iv'seach had 1 space of mw, So i was under the misguided beliefthat they only counted as 1 space of limited not two. Actuallyworked to my advantage, as the cost for the shotgun droppedfrom an average of 19.5 bpv to 14.5 bpv, which allowed forbigger ships.

The second was in passive fire control. I freely admit that whenI was taught the game 15 years ago or so, that the romulanplayer who taught me the game changed the rules.(Go figure,romulan lying for his advantage) He taught myself and othersthat passive fire control meant that the range was doubled forboth ships. Makes a huge difference in drone tactics when youcan start launching drones outside of 17. However, since I amused to launching inside 17, the shotgun became a standardtactic. I posted it, because like so many others, my opponentskept thinking that dogfights were useless against ships.

So lets examine that real quick.

Normally someone launches four drones at me. I don't sweat. Ihave plenty of drone defense to stop it without really affectingmy ship or my battle plan. If the range is suffecient, and thedrones are speed 20 or less, i can "walk" around the dronesand ignore/add them down.With the shotgun, not so. If the drones reach 6, they releasesubmunitions.Why 6?. At that range they are unable to be identified untilafter they release. Any closer, and you risk identification beforerelease. Why would that matter?. Forcing my opponent to reactto the dogfights before he/she knows what the bus vehicles areis the key. If my opponent hesitates to identify the bus vehicles,he/she is likely hit by the dogfights. Which is why they usuallyhet and run. They just run the dogfights out, then worry aboutthe bus vehicles."walking around" the drones is no longer viable as thedogfights are speed 32. They have to be dealt with becausethey are doing 24 points combined. I don't know many peoplewho willing take a type IV in the shields, but hey i'll let em.Because they take the equivalent of a ph-3 to destroy, they arehard to stop. Using every phser on the ship and add's will stopthem. However, that drains 50% of your phaser capacitors,which slows you down if you recharge. The busvehicles(depending on type) take about 2 phaser's each todestroy or 4 add's to stop them all. Possibley draining theadd's. Combine that with previous drone launches and theadd's are usually empty.Now my opponent has slowed down to reload phaser's. His/heradd's are empty. I am forcing the issue(closing hard) andlaunch another shot. They also open and close with myopponent. As I have drained the resouces on the ship/moredrones slip through his/her defenses. The damage from thoseplus the 2 turns of phaser/disrupter fire usually nets internals.In exchange i usually take disrupter fire back. Not a badexchange in my opinion.

No other drone option allows for the complete overloading ofopponent defenses with the amount of drones fired. Usingswordfish drones means that I am facing 4 drones. Sinceswordfish are affected by ecm, they usually net less damage.In fact unless they are set for upclose(3 or less) they fail to doas much damage to the ship. They also fail to draw theattention as the dogfights, and can be stepped aroundconsidering that id one of them at 6 reveals the range of firing,making it possible for the "walk around". Removing the armorto speed them up reveals them in years 178 and to a lesserextent in 179.

They are many ways to be effective against ships. Don't justlook at the damage, look at the energy cost. For virtually no

energy, my four drones are pulling 6-10 points of power frommy opponents ship(average, individual results may vary). Thatis an outstanding amout of power consumption for dronedefense. In fact I only ever get that much attention when i have10-12 normal drones in flight. The difference is I still havescatterpack drones and others in the racks. I couldconsiviabley push my opponent into a corner(close map),overload his defenses(shotgun) and destroy him withdrones(anchor). My opponent has less power available to himfor tractor defense, as he/she has been spending power toreplace phaser energy. Also he/she is getting no damage tomy ship for that energy, unless they are taking the dogfights. inwhich case I am netting up to 24 points a shot for aout 13points of phaser damage. And that doesn't include mydisrupter/phaser damage.

So as you can see, the dogfights have become quite effectiveagainst ships, especially on a closed map. They are lesseffective on an open map, but still can have the same results.You just have to be more patient.

By Hugo Vijftigschild (Galen) on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 09:59am: Edit

"Removing the armor to speed them up reveals them in years178 and to a lesser extent in 179."

Michael, Can you please explain what you're doing here? Theonly thing I can think of is removing external armor. Butexternal armor is optional and has to be added (instead ofremoved). And why would that identify the swordfish?

By Rodger Burns (Greymystic) on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 09:20pm: Edit

Michael Hardy:

I'm still wondering what your response is to the opponent whoplans to attack you with direct-fire and an oblique battle pass.To illustrate the situation, let's pose a brief example.

Turn 3, Impulse 20, just after all movement's completed. YourKzinti vessel (for kicks, let's call it a Y178 BC) is in 2312,heading D. Assuming standard disruptors, no other powerexpenditures besides housekeeping, and judicious use ofspeed changes, it could conceivably be moving at speed 27.

The enemy vessel (which we'll assume is a Klingon D7), is in2419, heading E. Note, first off, that this isn't a perfect oblique -the Klink is one hex behind the #2 hexspine. We'll furtherassume that the Klink turned on Impulse 20 in order to achievethis position at all, and is completely non-eligible to turn.

Your four MW drones (two Type-I, two Type-IV with one MWmodule and one explosive module) are in 2213, heading D.The bus vehicles are Speed 20, as they have external armor;they aren't on a perfect leading course for the Kzinti ship, butexpecting Speed 20 drones to 'lead' a Speed 27 BC is a bit ofa stretch, anyway. The important note is that the MW dronesare at Range 6 from the D7, so release at the appropriate pointin the Sequence of Play.

What happens next? The D7 immediately fires all bearingdisruptors at the BC (and potentially all four can be overloadedin EA - the D7 has the energy available, if it moves onlyreasonably slow). Expect a large dent in the BC's chase shield.On Impulse 21, the D7 immediately slips away from thedrones, and uses 3 points of reserve warp to upshift to Speed28. It moves four times in the next five impulses, taking twomoves straight forward, and two slips away from the oncomingMW drones. By Impulse 26, the D7 is in hex 1920, facing F,

and is turn-eligible. The drones are most likely in 2019, facingE.

Needless to say, on Impulse 27 the D7 (which by this point ismoving every impulse) turns in direction E and runs like hell.The drones tail, remain one hex behind the D7 every step ofthe way, and go inert at the end of Impulse 32. The Kzinti BC isstill seven or eight hexes behind the D7; the bus vehicles areeven further back.

The net tally at the beginning of Turn 4 - the Kzinti has dealtlight damage to a flank shield of the D7 with standarddisruptors, taken fairly heavy damage to its own #1 from UIM-assisted Klingon overloads, and has spent the bulk of itsspecial drones in order to make the D7 burn three points ofreserve warp and surrender a (questionably) superior boardposition to the BC.

The scenario above does not require clairvoyance orexceptional play on the part of the Klingon - it's simply a properand reasonably well-timed execution of the most commonKlingon attack pattern. And it makes the use of a shotgundrone pattern potentially more dangerous to the Kzinti than theKlink.

Response?

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Sunday, July 14, 2002 -01:59 pm: Edit

Michael:

What Roger said. I've read your posts explaining the tactic, andI've used MW drones in the past quite often.

I don't see how you get a dogfight drone to hit a shipconsidering it's range limitation, aside from errors by youropponent. This limitation simply can't be overcome, even withSpeed 32 DFs.

You would be better off using MW drones to shoot down otherdrones, which is their best use. Keep one or two on your KzinBC to deal with a Klingon scatterpack, and that's about it.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 02:37 pm:Edit

Besides which MW drones are incredibly expensive.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Monday, July 15, 2002 - 12:53 pm:Edit

So for nearly the cost of 4 tbombs you are hoping I close torange 6 or less of this little swarm of yours?

How about I just blast you at 8, turn off, lead the swarm into adropped tbomb or until they are out of gas, and force you toeither turn off or take further phaser potshots in your face withthe klinks phasers?

Or as a plasma chucker, drop an ept and deal with the dronesin the same way, forcing you to seperate from your drones orsuck 60?

And so on and so on. Your tactic revolves around maximumwarheads in play to suck resources. Any decent captain willuse the limited nature of MWs against you and use a minimumof resources while still giving you heck for it.

Feel free to sign up for SFBOL and prove me wrong.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Monday, July 15, 2002 -08:29 pm: Edit

First, the swordfish question. Becuase the Swordfish dronesare effective from 6 if using ph-1 swordfish providing no ecmshift(concievable could be a shift of 3), and ph-3 are effectiveat 3 (again providing the ecm shift). They need to be close. Ifthey are moving at 20 at set to fire at 6, they are going to dolimited damage(plus no threat from bus vehicles). If they areset to 3, your opponent could concievable fire a probe at 6 andid them, or gamble and attempt to id them at 5(17% chance) or4(33%). Making it likely that your opponent will avoid them orgive himself a ecm shift by going erratic (giving him a shift of2/3 if he has an ecm drone). Makes your swordfish fire atvirtually no damage. So if you dont have armor on them tospeed them up (speed 32) you reveal them immediately aslimited drones. Year 178 you can have up to 4(all type1),assuming your kzinti. Once revealed as limited, Iautomatically play to deal with them.(i.e, I suspect either MWor Swordfish). That is why I said they reveal themselves.

I am hoping nothing. However, my drones will close to range 6on you, whether you like it or not. The question is, when?

As for the standard oblique approach. I have to ask you, whendid i launch those drones(range), where were you in relation tome when we were 11 hexes apart? and what would you do ifyou were 11 from an opponent who fires/next impulses flips hisship around so that the other side weapons were in arc/fireshis new weapons/next impulse declares erratic manueveringwith max ecm and 4 drones coming towards your ship at arange of 8(my ship is still 9-10 hexes away)? would you closewith drones in an attempt to get your range 8 shot?(assumingthat you had overloads). Now you have a minimum of a shift of2 and have to chase me to get your range eight shot. Effect - Iscored damage to your front shields and you did squat to me.Especially if I timed this for a short mid turn speed change to26-27. That is only one way to counter your oblique approach. Ihave several more.Also, I standardly set my MW drones for range 6. However if Iobserve your ship Identify drones at 3 or less, I might set themto open at 4 or 5. So you can not always guess when mydrones are coming. Sometimes I don't fire them. Why?Because you expect me to. In your example you assumed thatthey were fired. I may not have fired but standard drones tosee if you would run a standard oblique first. I do have otherdrones.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Monday, July 15, 2002 -08:59 pm: Edit

Another quick point. After the gorn/romulan fires his ept I maycharge him. Because of the power and time it takes to reloadthe plasmas I have a good chance to dump on him inside of 4for two full turns. Possibley severly handicapping him. One 60point plasma nets 10 points per shield. 4 Mw drones have thepotential to net 48 points all to one shield.(granted you wouldhave to play very badly to let that happen, but if we dont try).Point I win that exchange. My disrupter/phaser combo plus thedamge from the drones nets the plasma chucker a down shieldand possibly destroyed torpedo. Also I can fire a second shotimmediately on the next(same?) turn as the MW's opened. Canthe plasma guy do the same? Also I can WW and still catchhim before his main weapons recycle(so much for the 60pointer or 120 if 2 were launched).How could a catch him? The first turn of his rearm i am limitedto 10. The second turn of rearm i can go 20. Depending onposition and type of map I may be able to cut him off and firebefore the end of the second turn. So that on the next firingturn he is chasing me.(oblique him on the second turn ofarming and he is chasing.) If I can get him to bolt(highly

unlikely-but has happened) then I can come right back in onhim.

The Shotgun is about giving your opponent headaches andsomething to worry about. Yes it has damage potential as theonly 2 real defenses are to try and run them out and destroythem. Ecm and WW will do nothing to them. Letting them hitmeans your are willing letting the equivelant of a type 4 pound1 shield. (doubt that is going to happen.)

I again assume that eventually the drones will get to 6. Whenthey do you have 12 dogfights and 4 unidentified busvehicles(barring a probe). You have to chose to close with thedogfights to Id the bus vehicles(greatly improving therechances of hitting) or run from them right away. Either wayyour battle plan is messed up especially if I am suddenlymoving away from you after firing and am suddnely erratic withmax ecm and you haven't fired. If your klingon/lyran you mayhave to take a very bad shot or dump your disrupters tospace(i really like it when that happens)If fed holding fulloverloads you may have your front shield hammered(4disrupters and 4 phaser 1's at a range of 10, no shift result inabout 20-30 points of damage to the fed shield.), withoutgetting any damage done to the kzint.

What did it cost me? 9 drones at a cost of 14.5(4 t-bombs).The drones are way more flexible, have a greater chance ofdoing damage(when was the last time you got hit with a t-bomb?), and makes your opponent react. Reacting captainsgenerally(not always) are losing captains.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July15, 2002 - 09:03 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:So for nearly the cost of 4 tbombs you are hoping I close torange 6 or less of this little swarm of yours?

How about I just blast you at 8, turn off, lead the swarm into adropped tbomb or until they are out of gas, and force you toeither turn off or take further phaser potshots in your face withthe klinks phasers?------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember that even at range 7 you don't know what you'relooking at ( Unless you have Aegis now !?!) and as such aremore then likely thinking:- I'll go to R1 tractor 1 and 6 Ph-1s asPh-3s my way through the other three ( unless they turn out tobe 4 Type Is ), then there's nothing those handful of Ph-1s andhandful of disruptors can do to me until I get into Ph-3 range ( Ihate that Kzinti forrest of phaser 3s ) and that way I'll get mylong awaited R4 Overloaded Photon blast and THEN TURNOFF.

If dones are comming in at speed 32 and you are going atspeed 16 and you HET, you'll still get hit at the end of thedrones' endurance.The same is true if the drones are speed 20 and you are goingat speed 10.If you are going slower than these speeds, then even with aHET you won't be safe from an R6 release.

Simply saying, you can out manouver the swarm is debateableat R6...now an R4 release ( who's really goung to blast R4drones ), that's a different matter.

On the other hand, if you say:-My favourite Fed tactic is the Bastard Sword Dance so expectme to be making my attack run at speed 23. Even with my turnmode of D, I can use sideslips from your release point ( range6 ) to keep myself out of contact with those drones.

By stating what you are doing, instead of merely, "I can beatthat" or the almost as bad;"I can beat that, with somethingoutragious", you make a more acceptable counter arguement.

Like, I said before with my, "I had powered the Trans' to beamover H&R but changed my mind when I saw ALL the enemydrones in a stack and dropped my forward shield and beamedout a T-bomb" routine.Just saying, I'll beam out a T-bomb won't really hold asbeleivible, you need a story that is beleivible to back it up.That is, a sencible attack run and from there counter hisactions.

Now a Klingon making an R8 strike, that I can beleive...doing itat greater than speed 20, harder to beleive ( you have to payfor all 16 points of disruptor arming this turn ).


Mike Hardy:

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Becuase the Swordfish drones are effective from 6 if using ph-1 swordfish------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're writting an X-ship tactic aren't you!?!

Or mayber you meant Ph-2 Swordfish, which will generateabout 1.16 points of damage at R6...a great way to squeeze anactual point of damage out of your drones...better then nodamage, but a Type IV husk will not attract phaser fire makingthat particular attack run detrimental.

Now a Ph-2 swordfish to fire at R3...firing and damaging evenif struck by an ADD...you'll generate up 3.5 points of damageper drone and possibly suck out an ADD shot aswell...thnatmight be more advantagous than just costing ADD fire for aregular drone...or even ADD fire and Phasers ( if you changeyour attack ).That is two pairs of Ph-2 swordfish are better because theenemy will fire off more ADDs and single file swordfish is betterstill ( depending on the enemy turn mode )...but if you what tohit with regular drones, then one wave of 4 Type IVs is moreable to pass through the ADDs therefore the attack formationwill change as mentioned above.


Speaking of swordfish...particularly if the enemy doesn't havean ADD...Is to:-Launch a wave of 4 Type I swordfish drones to fire at R1.The enemy fires on the husks at R1 and still takes 3.66' pointsof damage per drone.Then launch 2 Type IV drones with Ph-1 Swordfish modules.The enemy see you fire off your shots ( particularly if set to fireat R2 or R3 ) and choose not to shoot down your husks.The drones strike for 12 points of damage per drone.

You've just got to hope the other guy is lazy with Labs, short onLabs or you can swarm his Labs with the addition of dronesfrom an SP.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, July 15, 2002 - 11:20 pm:Edit

As a Klingon against Kzinti, I will not be going slower thanspeed 20 (or if I am, it is for a very specific tactical reason for afew impulses--eg a better turn mode). I'll power standarddisruptors before I decide to go slower than speed 20.

By Hugo Vijftigschild (Galen) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 -04:19 am: Edit

Micheal Hardy:

Have you ever tried your MW tactics against an opponent?

btw if you fire 4xdisr and 4xP1 at range 10 the averagedamage is 12 and not between 20-30.


MJC:

I think you mean "launch 2 type IV with P3 modules". The P2 istwo space so there is no room for an explosive module.

This is a standard swordfish tactic. First wave type I P3 atrange 1, second wave type IV P2 at range 3.As an alternative you could use type IV P3 1/2 exp 1/2 arm (mypersonal favorite).Notice that you need at least 3xP3 for a sure kill at range 1 forthis drone and with 2xP3 the chance of a kill is only 1/3.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 -10:07 am: Edit

those are mighty expensive drones. you're not gonna have tomany of them under your 25% deployment restrictions either.


True, but I usually have a D6D in my fleet.

By Rodger Burns (Greymystic) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 -04:23 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:As for the standard oblique approach. I have to ask you, whendid i launch those drones(range), where were you in relation tome when we were 11 hexes apart? and what would you do ifyou were 11 from an opponent who fires/next impulses flips hisship around so that the other side weapons were in arc/fireshis new weapons/next impulse declares erratic manueveringwith max ecm and 4 drones coming towards your ship at arange of 8(my ship is still 9-10 hexes away)? would you closewith drones in an attempt to get your range 8 shot?(assumingthat you had overloads). Now you have a minimum of a shift of2 and have to chase me to get your range eight shot. Effect - Iscored damage to your front shields and you did squat to me.Especially if I timed this for a short mid turn speed change to26-27. That is only one way to counter your oblique approach. Ihave several more.Also, I standardly set my MW drones for range 6. However if Iobserve your ship Identify drones at 3 or less, I might set themto open at 4 or 5. So you can not always guess when mydrones are coming. Sometimes I don't fire them. Why?Because you expect me to. In your example you assumed thatthey were fired. I may not have fired but standard drones tosee if you would run a standard oblique first. I do have otherdrones.------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If at first you don't succeed, change the rules of the game."

If you're going to launch MW drones at my ship at Range 12 orso, then I hope sincerely that you'll alpha and go erratic awayfrom me when you reach range 11. That makes your dronesthe only thing I have to worry about for a good 32 impulses atleast, and I can mop up *anything* with phasers, tractors, andspeed in that amount of time. Which means that yes, I likelywill turn in and follow you, regardless of what those dronesbetween us might be.

Review your own writings. The goal of the shotgun, as youyourself posted, is less to deal damage to the enemy than tomake him expend a disproportionate level of phasers, energy,and board position on dealing with drones while the Kzinti shipsweeps in loaded for bear. A tactic of "I fire at 11, turn off, andgo erratic" is not exactly the recommended method tocapitalize on an opponent's anti-drone maneuvering.

Now, if you'd like to post an anti-oblique tactic that doesn'tinvolve throwing the MW Shotgun into the trash bin beforeeven seeing how the opponent deals with it, please feel free. Ifyour best anti-oblique response comes down to nothing morethan "score minor damage from outside overload range andabandon my drones behind me, thus allowing the opponent todictate maneuver and chase me into a corner", though, I'dinvite you to review your tactics.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 04:38pm: Edit

[OT]Hey Rodger, ever want your copy of SFBF back?


Oh, and as a followup to the above, I'd like to review the EAform for a Kzinti BC that's firing four standard disruptors at 11,goes erratic under 6 ECM, and uses a mid-turn speed changeto run away at 27.

Standard Kzinti BC. 36 power, 5 batteries. Housekeeping is 4,standard loads on the disruptors is 8. Erratics are paid for forthe entire turn, so 6 more points there. Another 6 power goesinto ECM, and we'll assume that the initial split is 3/3 (you didwant to avoid the shift caused by the Klingon's ECM drone,yes?), so three more points out of battery to go to 6 ECM and 0ECCM after making the turn.

By my best count, that leaves a grand total of 14 power formovement for the Kzinti BC. Including spare batteries. Overthe entire turn.

Is the "mid-turn speed change to 27" enabled by the crafty useof a Positron Flywheel, perhaps?

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 04:59 pm:Edit

I was going to post a long detailed response Micheal andMichael, but I see that Rodger has gotten to most of them.Here's the one he didnt;

Another quick point. After the gorn/romulan fires his ept I maycharge him. Because of the power and time it takes to reloadthe plasmas I have a good chance to dump on him inside of 4for two full turns.

Here I can only assume you are dreaming. The BP boat dumps1 ept and you are going to charge him? Please do...suckanother 50 while you're at it, then watch the Gorn accelerate

away or the Rom cloak. It looks apparent to me that your anti-plasma tactics are lacking.

The Shotgun is about giving your opponent headaches andsomething to worry about.

As I've said, you seem preoccupied with getting maximumwarheads out there instead of looking for where they migh bemore useful for their cost...ie: anti drone/fighter work. Targetsthat are more predictable and have less defences and oftenappear in larger numbers than enemy ships.

What did it cost me? 9 drones at a cost of 14.5(4 t-bombs).And more than likely I can use 1 tbomb to kill them.

Reacting captains generally(not always) are losing captains.

A gross generaliztion. If you throw your eggs into one basketas you are then of course the enemy will have to react. If Ilaunched 100pts of plasma you would have to react too, butthat doesnt necesarily give me any edge.

Situation, situation, situation.

Again. PLEASE get on sfbol and prove me wrong. IMO you arethrowing alot of bpv away on a one-shot tactic with alot ofholes in it.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 -07:25 pm: Edit

Mr. Hardy, may I ask what part of the country you live in? If youare anywhere in the Oregon/Washington area, I may have todrive out and play you a game or two. My Klingon vs. yourKzin.

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 -07:32 pm: Edit

Kevin:

You should make it worth the drive.... say, $100?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 07:40pm: Edit

I must confess I don't see the value of using the dogfightdrones. I can understand your basic premise, e.g., thatoverloading someone with drones leaves them vulnerable toyour direct fire weapons. But DF drones are so slow I don't seethat they'd work very well, especially against the klingons, whohave no expensive df weapons to hold, have great turn modes,and usually have ADD's and phaser 2's or 3's for defense. Imay not totally understand the situation, however, and amwilling to see it tested before disregarding it as a valuabletactic.

I do know, however, that Geoff and Kevin are tactically verysavy, having read their posts on many different occasions. I'venot had the plesure of playing them on SFBOL yet, but I feelpretty sure that if they say they can handle this tactic, they can.I can't speak for them, but here's what I would do, were I aKlingon facing this issue.

Shortly put, I'd treat it like any drone heavy ship; I'd powertractors, power up a weasle, and keep my speed at 20 orbetter. I'd approach obliquely, taking advantage of my turnmode, and arm disruptors at the last minute to hit at range 8 orso. When you launched, I'd simply turn and run away, using myaft phasers, ADD's, and tractors to weed out the drones I justdidn't flat outrun. With UIM, I'd have better disruptors than theKzinti, and I'd use that advantage shamelessly, if I could.

Don't let this get you down, Michael. Continue to post yourtactics and ideas, and you'll enrich both yourself and the rest ofus.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July16, 2002 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Hugo:

Opps my Ph-1 was meant to be a Ph-3.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 -10:55 pm: Edit

Kevin: I'm in Corvallis, OR, about two hours south of Portland.Where are you?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July16, 2002 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Knowing the Kzinti battle plan is a pretty bad way to start theplay. I mean that's why there a squizzillion drone loadouts...justso the Kzinti can give the other guy a little surprise.

I HET.I have a mid turn speed change.I didn't bother arming weapons to get the extra speed I want.Doesn't sound like a good battle plan...right!?!But if I know the other guy is planning the shot gun...it's awhole 'natha matta'.

Now taking one of your playgroup who doesn't read this boardin order to play the mission...that's a darn sight smarter.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 -10:42 am: Edit

Frank, I live in Portland. I know two other people in the areawho play (but not often enough for me). I would be happy tocome down once in awhile to play if you have time. Email meto set up some games!

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 -01:56 pm: Edit

Try this:

Turn 0 I launch 4 drones, 2 speed 20. 2 speed 32.

Turn 1: I launch 2 (yes two and I didn't alter the rules)scatterpacks at you. Knowing that you are most likely firing atone of them(possibly both) Id'd the 32's as type 1

Turn 2: You start your oblique aproach(waited to clear mydrones)I launch 2 speed 20 and 12 impulses later; 4more(impulse 1 and 13 respectively). The first two open at 6with MW and the last four are?

The point in all this is that you haven't a clue before the dronesreach 6 what they are.(Including aegis(rule d13.3 range 7+ notallowed, 17% at range 6 when Identifying seeking weapons.)So you say? Every time you play a kzinti you have to plan onthe use of a shotgun. I on the other hand can throw about 14variants of the shotgun at you, including keeping the shotgunand still launching some speed 32 drones. It's costly but I canstill do it.Example in my current game with Kerry. We set amax Bpv of 130. I chose a DWL instead of a CL+. Thedifference is about 5 points of BPV. I could have Purchased 4type 1 xtra drones and increased 1 of them to 32. (20% of 4 is.8 rounded up is 1.) because they are extra, I can leave the last3 at 8(did some one say deception purposes for putting speed

8 drone in a scatterpack??), That means that I couldconsievably launch a speed 32 drone(i have 1) with a speed 20drone on impulse 1 of turn 2, and still have the full use of thenormal shotgun.(remeber, I stated that I was use to my dronescosting 19.5 bpv not 14.5)

As for moving outside of 35. On a closed map unlikely, on anopen map, we are probably starting far enough apart that Idon't have to launch drones at you. I can unload on turn 1 andreload on turn 2 and not have you get close enough to affectme.

Range 10 4 disrupters no shift 9-12 points (unless you reallyroll bad.) 4 phaser 1's at range 10 2 hit for 3 points. Total is 12-15. My bad on the damage output. However a return shot froma klingon with shift of 2 at range 9 (guaranteed shift If I firefirst.) only does 3 points from the 4 disrupters (33 % chance ofthem hitting) and 1 point from 4 pahser 1's (17% chance ofthat). Any ph-2 also will score 1 point (again 17% chance). Netresult 5-6 points of damage for my 12-15. Go ahead and try toclose. If you manage to come through the dogfights, as youstated, then you are doing one of three things. 1. Taking thedamage(another 24+ points). Phasering them down (lessphasers to shoot my ship.(meaning your relying on disruptersonly), or dropping a shield and using a t-bomb. Given theapproaching speeds likely you will hit yourself on the downshield. (especially given the arming time for transported t-bombs.) Net result. I still score more damage than you period.As for my weapons being out for 32 impulses. Yeah if I fire onimpulse 1. Otherwise i only have to manuever away for theremainging impulses of the turn. Then my weapons arereamared and I have fresh front shields, you don't.

Remeber, you posted the question on the oblique. You set thespeeds and the situation. You assumed that I was unable torecognize the oblique and turn it against you.

I stated it before, It's not the damage from Dogfights but whatthey force the opponent to do. If I pulled a fire early manueveron a klingon with only 4 launched drones I would be dead.However if they release 12 speed 32 dogfights, my opponentwill likely fire and turn off early, netting little or no damage. Andthe situation was posted that the klingon was holding overloadswith speed 27. I personally never need to fly at speeds greaterthan 20. Speed 16-19 is my usual set. I can still have myspeed 20 type 1 ecm drones and keep their protection.Whereas a Klingon moving at speed 21+ with an ecm dronejust revealed that his entire limited availabilty drones wereused on ecm. Why. In Year 178 a klingon has 1 speed 32drone at his disposal(regardless of what it is.) It can only be ona type 1 or 3 frame. Whereas I can have 4 and can break themup however I want.

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 -02:11 pm: Edit

Michael:

"I personally never need to fly at speeds greater than 20.Speed 16-19 is my usual set."

This explains why you think your tactic works. Your grouptends to slower engagements where outrunning those dogfightdrones, which is easy, isn't routinely done. Also, while you areshoveling BPV out the drone racks at me I am gaining victorypoints. Remember that if you have deployed two scatterpacksand unloaded a significant number of drones from your racks,you will successfully maneuver me, but only at the cost of mostof your drone weaponry. My goal in life for that turn will be toneutralize drones - DFs are easily neutralized by maneuver, sonow my job is easy.

You should definitely keep this trick in an arsenal of tactics, butthe idea that this is (or should be) a standard tactic is notsupportable. You've presented the same arguments a numberof times, and they don't work. Assume that you opponent ismoving speed 24 at a minimum, more likely 28, and you willsee that a MW drone releasing at range 6 will need to CLOSEsix hexes in 12 impulses. That means a target movingobliquely away needs to be moving slower than approximatelyspeed twenty to get hit. This will not happen unless theopponent wants it to. And if he does, you will have shot yourwad, and he will most likely be hunting and maneuvering youthe way he wants.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 -02:23 pm: Edit

You know, I wouldn't normally read these pages, but wasbored at work, so have been skimming.

I have read some extremely humorous things talking abouthow calmly running through EPTs is a good idea. The personeven said running through an EPT R is acceptable.

Please play on SFBOL, or come to Origins, or any tourney Icome to, so I can see this munching the EPT strategy in action.(I WILL be gleefully launching them)


------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Try this:



Turn 2: You start your oblique aproach(waited to clear mydrones)I launch 2 speed 20 and 12 impulses later; 4more(impulse 1 and 13 respectively). The first two open at 6with MW and the last four are?------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not MW drones. As you've only had 32 impulses to jigger yourracks, and so have swapped in a maximum of one Type I.(Last time I checked, the initial tactic involved having the Kzintievade action for *two* entire turns, in order to toss aroundType-IVs. Care to comment on the change in operations?) Andsix whole DF drones coming my way are hardly going toaccomplish *any* of the goals of the MW Shotgun.

(Of course, you can always use a pair of MW Type-IV dronesfor the initial MW launch... except, of course, that that onlyproduces *ten* Type-VI drones, removes any possibility at allthat the bus vehicles are anything more than space junk, andeats up half the launching capacity of your C-Racks and *all* ofyour initial Limited Drone allotment. IOW, shown your entirehand very early in the game.)

By the way, why exactly do I have to spend the entirety of Turn1 worrying about your scatterpacks? My T-bombs and myshatterpack in the counter-drone role mop SP drones up a lotmore quickly then that.

And I still want to know where you're getting the power to armall your disruptors as standards, apply ECCM to beat my ECMdrone, activate erratics to guarantee a 2-shift against my fire,*and* still find power for piddling things like fire control and lifesupport. Or why, if you're doing so, I should actually fire

phasers (!) at range 9 (!) through your ECM shift (!!!), ratherthan holding the caps and using the 4-point power advantagethey give me to run you down and maul you on the next turn.

Silly kat.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 -05:58 pm: Edit

As I am playing this one, a few comments.If you go erratic I hope you bought ATG for many of yourdrones as otherwise the type 6 will still be tracking-others willnot be.The tactic will be effective in getting a reaction from youropponent(one way or the other-and this is normally a goodthing), but having your opponent react to you does not win agame. Also as to erratics, you must announce them beforethey get to begin and why would the opponent not fire at thattime?

I just seeing this as a slightly helpful tactic not an overpoweringone that you state it to be. I guess one of us will see who isright

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 08:09 pm:Edit

*shrugs shoulders*

M Hardy;Throw all your eggs in one basket. See if I care. It gives you atemporary advantage that I don't think is worth the cost.

I see you have not mentioned any response to our requests tohave you get on SFBOL. I can only assume you have nointention to prove this wondertactic of yours then.


Well, the thing about the MW Shotgun is that I can actually seea few cases in which it could be useful. Say, if you load up theMW drones in a Klingon D7D and shotgun them at a Hydranvessel (at which point the *worst* possible alternative, from theD7D's standpoint, is watching the Hydran use every gatling it'sgot on the DFs, rather than risk them getting close to fighters -and a dumb Hydran may actually assume the DFs *are*targeted on fighters, and charge his ship ahead "to keep theKlingon busy while the fighters evade"), or against aFederation cruiser (y'know, the race with lousymaneuverability, very EW-inefficient heavy weapons andalmost no defensive phasers).

It even works well against some specialty Klingon ships, suchas a mauler (although, in SFB terms, a *lot* of things work wellagainst a mauler ). But trying to use massed DF drones toseriously inconvenience a line ship of the race that emphasizesmaneuverability, good phaser arcs, and good heavy weaponarcs more than just about anyone else is just asking for toomuch of a good thing.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday,July 24, 2002 - 01:56 am: Edit

T.S.:

If my D5 can get to R1 of your Romulan War Eagle simply byrunning straight through your EPT-R, you just watch me do it.

It happens all the time...'cause the important sheild is actuallytaking 1/3 the damage that it would otherwise take.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 -07:16 am: Edit

We can certainly agree to disagree. I think the most powerfulweapon in the game is the enveloper. The most powerful of allthe envelopers is the mighty R.

As for a shield being the important shield....they are ALLimportant.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 10:15am: Edit

I think, Tim, what he means is that he'll take that 16 points pershield if he can get to range one, and nail you with 4disruptors, plus phasers. Even if you cloak (assuming you can)he still gets two complete free turns to shoot at you witheverything he has...not a good position for the WE to be in. I'dcertainly take that trade, if I could.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 -10:39 am: Edit

I'm fine with continuing this discussion. However, since this hasnothing to do with Kzin tactics, I'll take this to the Romulanthread.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 10:39am: Edit

Agreed, comment moved to Romulan thread.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July25, 2002 - 05:00 am: Edit

New Question.

In the last quarter of the previous turn you have launched awave of 4 Type IVM drones and followed at speed 16. Onimpulse 1 you launch another set of Type IVM drones.The Range is currently 14 hexes from both the first and secondway and yourself to the enemy ship.

You could describe using a Kzinti CS or CA. The enemy canbe any Enemy cruiser you like and any speed you think isreasonable.

What can the enemy do to avoid damage and how muchdamage do you expect to inflict?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July25, 2002 - 05:21 am: Edit

Assume CA...I'll need that Double Drone Control.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Thursday, July 25,2002 - 11:49 am: Edit

If I'm using a Kzinti CA, am I also using speed 8 drones? If so,the ONLY way I do damage is to run up and grab him intractor.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Thursday, July 25, 2002 -05:04 pm: Edit

CA is a CS/BC hull, doesn't have double drone control. Notethat if the enemy cruiser IDs many of the drones as two spaces(WW?) he'll be able to joyfully attack or get back up to speedbecause your racks are empty.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Friday, July 26, 2002 -02:31 pm: Edit

"Quote:Try this:



Turn 2: You start your oblique aproach(waited to clear mydrones)I launch 2 speed 20 and 12 impulses later; 4more(impulse 1 and 13 respectively). The first two open at 6with MW and the last four are?

Not MW drones. As you've only had 32 impulses to jigger yourracks, and so have swapped in a maximum of one Type I.(Last time I checked, the initial tactic involved having the Kzintievade action for *two* entire turns, in order to toss aroundType-IVs. Care to comment on the change in operations?) Andsix whole DF drones coming my way are hardly going toaccomplish *any* of the goals of the MW Shotgun."

--------------------------------------------------

Actually I could still have the full shotgun in this example.Because the two unidentified drones where type 4(nobodyposted that they would id the speed 20), I could load 2 type IVmw from the reloads because I chose 2 Type 1 speed 32 and 1type 4 mw (1space MW only, never 2). Then by purchasing 8extra drones( cost 8) and modifieying 2 two speed 32 type 1mw(cost 5.0 each). because both type 1's were from launchedon turn 0, i can reload these on turn 1. Drone reload rates load2 spaces in 32 impulses per rack. Meaning that each rack willbe completed by end of turn 1(ready for launch on turn 2impulse 1). Point, I just used what you thought couldn't bedone, and probably hit you with it. (this assumes that I havesome BPV to play with of course)

As for because I play speed 20-, doesn't mean anything aboutmy playgroup. Members of my playgroup routinely fly at 26+. Ijust find that for my ships speed 20- is suffecient(why throwenergy into moving 27 when I don't need to.) A speed 13/26split at exactly impulse 16(i.e speed 13 to impulse 16, speed26 to impulse 32) nets a movecost of 19. If the split is done at20 the cost is 18. So you may ask? I could fly at a lower speedto get my drones in front of me say 5-7 hexes and then speedchange up. Since your standard oblique approach is to fire atme then turn off, I could chase you at the end of the turn whileyou are running from my dogfights. Since in your example thedrones are only 1 space behind you; a t-bomb is ineffective.Why? it takes 2 impulses after you move out of detection rangebefore the t-bomb is active. If you drop a front shield and try torun past it the drones will set it off and hit you, or they will bemoving out of detection range and not set it off. I follow you tillend of turn possibly ending at 8.(maybe I did the 14/26 splitwith reserve to 28 so I move every impulse that you do). Onimpulse 1 of next turn, I announce erratic, I fire full overloadsand launch 4 drones. impulse 2 I and You het and move, rangestill 8. The drones release another wave of dogfights as theyare now at 6 and all are self guided. I continue to run from youuntil impulse 10 at speed 26. On impulse 11 I drop to 13, on 19I drop to 6. net cost 16. I could drop sooner than that If I needto to get costs down. My point I got a lot more damage from myship on this turn than you did eventho I dropped my speedconsiderably. Why? because even at your high speed you hadto run through my drones or turn off. You had only one chanceto shoot my ship on impulse 1 and you couldn't do it. After thatyou are either taking 24 points plus 36 from bus vehicles( youassumed a 2/2 split on the drones in your example, you never

Id them to be sure unless I missed something given yourexample the bus vehicles never got closer than 4)or running.Considering the running must start within 2 impulses(according to your example), you never got better than a range8 shift of minimum 2 possibly 3(i could have a type 3 speed 32ecm drone in your example).

As for the envelopers, You assume my ship has armed itsdisrupters. I could arm 1 disrupter to save power for erratic. 4impulses before your plasma hit i launch the ecm drone. I waituntil the impulse before your plasma hit to go full erratic. Yourplasma is facing a possible shift of 3. this leaves 50% chanceof doing 100%, 33% to do 50% and 17% to do 25%. if you roll4 or more I am taking 5 points a shield, if you roll a 6 I take 2points a shield with 3 points broke over 3 shields at my option.Makes running through them a very viable option. especially ifyou launched both at the same time. Oh a point on the PlasmaR enveloper, Facing it and having you roll a 6 and me taking25 points broke over the 6 shields is quite nice especially sincenow I can close to 1 and unload for two turns even if you arecloaked.

As for the SFBOL, I am currently researching it, however I dospend about 70 hours a week at work and do like to spendtime with my family. It has nothing to do with not wanting toprove you wrong, but everything to do with priorities. My wifeand kids will always come before sfb, which explains why Ihave never been able to go to Origins.

A note on the range 1 swordfish. If I launch a probe At range 5and Id them you will never get close. Why? let's assume that Iam klingon. I have 2 add that fire at 3. 2 drones dead(no returnshot) the next impulse I tractor at range 2(guaranteed no shot,now I can destroy at my leisure) net cost 4 points of power and2 add shots. or alternatively I can continue to fire add anddestroy them at 3. Especially if I am moving at 20 as well.Why? it could take 2-3 impulses of add fire before your droneseven make range 1, likely killing all of them first. If they aremoving at speed 32 I can shoot 2 at range 3 and tractor theothers at range 2, then destroy them. making your swordfishdrones useless. If they are ph-2 set at 3 I will know andcould(depending on allocation and equipment carried) givethem a shot with a shift of 3. meaning I will take a max of 9points or 0. 1-3 is 12 points and 4-6 is 0. 50/50 chance oftaking nothing per drone that fires. Why 9? Because if youused type 1 and you used the drone reload from the shotguntactic, you could have a max of 1 type 4 with 2 reloads or 3drones. I can still ID them at 5 with the probe. Why 5? to waitto see if your drones are releasing on 6 before wasting myprobe.

As for the tactic change; the 2 turn arming was for an openmap, however since everyone kept refering to a closed map, iposted the tactic as such. On the closed map launching on turn0 impulse 28 becomes the viable solution. By launching 4 typeIv drones(yes kerry I gave away something)I have spacesavailable for the 2 space reloads meaning I can put 2 type Iv(1in each b rack) and 4 type 1(2 in each c rack) in 32 impulses.As for the shatterpack defense. You need a minimum of 3dogfights per add rack to get 12 in your shatterpack. Whichmeans I am facing adds with 9 shots or 1 dogfight per rack in32 impulses. I love that load thank you. And A single dogfightloaded into a shuttle takes 8 impulses with 2 deck crews. Onimpulse 9 I can launch as a scatterpack. If you destroy it withphaser/disrupters you killed a scatterpack with single dogfight.IF you wait till it opens you may waste defenses on it. Sincereading this, you are less likely to fire at my shuttles since youcannot be sure anymore, meaning I could launch the real onimpulse 9 and launch the other on 17. On impulse 17 I couldhave 2 dogfights or a type 1.(i must choose what I am doingduring EA, You have no clue however) And I still haven'tdrained the resources of my ship as you so elequantly stated.

Nor are all my eggs in one basket, but you keep assuming theyare.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 04:44pm: Edit

Mr. Hardy, I'm still waiting for an answer. Do you live in thenorthwestern part of the US? I'm thinking even Idaho would bedoable. Each time you post your "great tactic" the distance Iwill travel increases. I would LOVE to play you a game.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 04:54 pm:Edit

Kevin,

Why not just do this on SFBOL?

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 08:35pm: Edit

Michael:

You are still missing the forest for the trees. Please stop talkingabout impulse x speed changes and minutae. I can assure youit's not improving your argument.

If your opponents are flying speed 26 your dogfights will runout of endurance. They have a range of 12 hexes.

How do you address this simple, elegant counter to yourdogfights?

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 -07:59 am: Edit

To answer the elogant counter to my dogfights of flying atspeed 26 and running them out. Did it ever occur to you that Iwant you to run from them. That is why I use it?. 4 drones donot do anything to encourage you to run, but 16 well that's adifferent story. What you need to ask your self is what is thepurpose of launching drones? If you answer "To damage theenemy ship", you would be the one missing the forest for thetrees. Yes it is good to damage your opponents ship, Howeverit is better to use your drones to put you in a better firingposition 2 or 3 turns in a row so that you score internals firstand often and wear your opponents ship out, than it is to tryand kill him in one quick move. Yes it works to gamble once inawhile on the quick move, but the consitant wearing down ofthe opponents ship is more likely to win you the day. Everyoneknows the standard kzinti tactic is to build a massive dronewave and follow it in. It's the Kzint who doesn't do what isexpected that gives the opponents fits.So the question becomes when are you turning off? If yourobliquing me at range 8 and the drones were 5-7 hexes in frontof me then at range 11-13 the drones are opening. Assumingyou continue to move towards my ship for 1-2 moves meansthe drones have closed to 2. Now you can fire(maybe if I didn'tsideslip or do something else to keep the range from hitting 8.)Now you have no choice but to turn off in order to run fromthem or come through them. Assuming you run, your mainweapons for the next 11-15 impulses are faced away from me(barring a het of course.). If I follow you and manage tosomehow hold the range at 8 till the end of the turn I will get 2overload shots on the same shield. Almost no way for you toavoid it without allowing the dogfights to hit. Now I can rununder the cover of the second shot, which will almostguarantee that you are running again. So you end up runningfor the majority of 2 full turns with me firing those two turns onthe same shield possibly both overloads, or alternately I couldtrade overload shots at range 8 (possibly turning your obliqueinto a head to head.) Now I follow you till the end of turn. I

launch four drones and wait to fire my overloads until impulse2. If you het, you just screwed yourself as this time, you will notget out of range of the dogfights before they hit you and youwill virtually guarantee that they hit you on the front shield justlike my overloads do. All I have to have done is have enoughinitial speed to catch you and have everything else in tractors.Odds are I can anchor you and have you take all of thedogfights and bus vehicles as my mid-turn speed changes aregoing to slowly drop your speed below that of the dogfights.Since you hetted, you cannot use it to turn your weakenedshield out of the way of the dogfights before they hit you. Why?Two moves by 2 ships moving the same speed drop the rangefrom 8-4. If you are still doing 26, your turn mode will not befulfilled until after you move 3 or 4 times after you het.(onlyshuttles/fighters have a turn mode of 3 at 26.)If you sideslip thedogfights will most likely sideslip, they still will get to you firstbefore you can turn. What you have done(most people do) isbelieve that because you got by the first shot you beat thetactic. The tactic relys on multiple shots to be effective. That iswhy I advocate the reloading of racks before the initial MWshot is made. So can you get by 2-3 shots in a row and stillbeat my ship??

Now for the asked question on the 8 type IVM drones. Letsassume that I am flying a D5C.(yes its a klingon.)I look at thesituation quickly and see that I have 4 trac, 2 add, 2 b-racks, 3batt. Knowing that I am facing a kzint I have 1 point allocatedto tractor. So lets examine the sitrep. I have 8 unidentifieddrones at range 14, all speed 20, and your ship at speed 16.Okay. First I would move straight at the drones until they were8 from me. I would fire 2 standard type 1 speed 20 drones at 2of your drones. Next move I would sideslip making the range 7.I would move foward until range 3(Possibly using sideslips tomake sure that my launched drones are 1 to 2 hexes in front). Iwould fire 2 add's killing 2(very high percent.)If we don't move,I get another round of add. Let's assume we move. The rangeis now one and my two drones take out two of yours.(4 down.)I now use my tractors to grab all four remaining drones.Icontinue firing add's until the drones are gone. I stopped themwithout taking damage. If one managed to get through theinitial add's I would use the add's together to kill it as theremaining four are held at range one. I have taking no damageand will take no damage. Also I could have Id'd them. Had Ichose to, I would quickly see that you are out of drones in tworacks and if I read it right you also have 16 of 20 spaces astype 4 meaning almost all of your reloads are type 4. I nowhave your ship somewhere close in front of me(assumes youfollowed the drones in??)with only 2 racks able to fire(assumesI id'd the drones)for 1 whole turn. I have no fear of your dronesso nothing stops me from turning your ship to mush.

As you can see I can easily stop a wave of 8 drones, with littleor no effort and still have the ability to damage your ship. So isit really worth launching a wave of 8 type IVM? You literatly putall your eggs in one basket, especially if they are done on turn0 and turn 1.

To answer the question as to where I live. The answer isPendleton, Or. The problem comes in, on you zipping overhere for a game, is my work schedule. If my schedulepermitted, I would easily play this out on sfbol. So email mewith your schedule and an projected date. I will willing play thisout with you. Heck, I will even let you stay here at the house sothat you can save the return trip in the same day and save thepossible hotel fee. Just keep in mind I work 12-14 hour days 5-6 days a week. I am salary and my "normal" days off arewed&thur. And As I already posted, My wife and Kids comefirst. Meaning that the my days off are usually planned aroundthem and planned ahead of time. However to let you prove mewrong, I am sure My wife will allow me to schedule a gamewith you.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 -03:19 pm: Edit

LOL, Excellent! I work a normal Monday through Fridaysalaried position but I do have quite a bit of flexibility. I can takea day or two off to play. What it comes down to now is whencan YOU take time off. I will be in Ft. Worth, Texas from the31st till Aug 4th so it will have to be after that but it can beanytime you wish. I will email you with more info.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 04:21 pm:Edit

M Hardy;However it is better to use your drones to put you in a betterfiring position 2 or 3 turns in a row so that you score internalsfirst and often

If this is the position you find yourself in after implimenting thistactic of yours, it is the opponent and not that tactic that gaveyou this position.

I would not turn off without;A)Hitting your #1 hard to make pursuit difficultB)Dumping enough plasma to make you turn offC)having a plan to fast weasel and/or deal with the dronesquick enough to re-engage you, stopping and spinning ifneeded

Why in the world would I just let you pound on me for "2-3turns"? There is no good reason to do so.

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Monday, July 29, 2002 -12:29 pm: Edit

Michael:

I stopped reading your long post after this opening statement:

"To answer the elogant counter to my dogfights of flying atspeed 26 and running them out. Did it ever occur to you that Iwant you to run from them. That is why I use it?."

Of course, but you've pissed away a lot of BPV to get me tomove ten hexes. That''s what people use pseudo plasmas for.But, this isn't worth it.

Further, your earlier posts often talk about actually getting a hit.This won't happen.

So, are you doing it to gain positional advantage, or to gain ahit? You won't gain hits, that's been explained to you. So, Imust assume that you are doing it to gain positionaladvantage.

However, there is NO WAY that it is worth the price you arepaying for what you obviously consider a standard, winninggame tactic (and the limited situations where this is a usefultactic does not justify you carryng MW drones on all your ships,or at least not the max load you are using as an example).

Just play this game and you will understand. Trust me, the lightwill go on and you'll understand.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Monday, July 29, 2002 -01:15 pm: Edit

To all involved, I live about 2.5 hours from Mr. Hardy and willbe playing him in the near future. I have emailed him and I amwaiting for him to respond with a date to play. Hopefully, I willwin the match(s) and then we can have more meaningfuldialogue than has been held so far.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002- 01:27 pm: Edit

So to understand your position. You believe that the counter tothe shotgun is to run from it. The only scenario given for it wasposted as follows:

Quote:--------------------------------------------------Michael Hardy:

I'm still wondering what your response is to the opponent whoplans to attack you with direct-fire and an oblique battle pass.To illustrate the situation, let's pose a brief example.

Turn 3, Impulse 20, just after all movement's completed. YourKzinti vessel (for kicks, let's call it a Y178 BC) is in 2312,heading D. Assuming standard disruptors, no other powerexpenditures besides housekeeping, and judicious use ofspeed changes, it could conceivably be moving at speed 27.

The enemy vessel (which we'll assume is a Klingon D7), is in2419, heading E. Note, first off, that this isn't a perfect oblique -the Klink is one hex behind the #2 hexspine. We'll furtherassume that the Klink turned on Impulse 20 in order to achievethis position at all, and is completely non-eligible to turn.

Your four MW drones (two Type-I, two Type-IV with one MWmodule and one explosive module) are in 2213, heading D.The bus vehicles are Speed 20, as they have external armor;they aren't on a perfect leading course for the Kzinti ship, butexpecting Speed 20 drones to 'lead' a Speed 27 BC is a bit ofa stretch, anyway. The important note is that the MW dronesare at Range 6 from the D7, so release at the appropriate pointin the Sequence of Play.

What happens next? The D7 immediately fires all bearingdisruptors at the BC (and potentially all four can be overloadedin EA - the D7 has the energy available, if it moves onlyreasonably slow). Expect a large dent in the BC's chase shield.On Impulse 21, the D7 immediately slips away from thedrones, and uses 3 points of reserve warp to upshift to Speed28. It moves four times in the next five impulses, taking twomoves straight forward, and two slips away from the oncomingMW drones. By Impulse 26, the D7 is in hex 1920, facing F,and is turn-eligible. The drones are most likely in 2019, facingE.

Needless to say, on Impulse 27 the D7 (which by this point ismoving every impulse) turns in direction E and runs like hell.The drones tail, remain one hex behind the D7 every step ofthe way, and go inert at the end of Impulse 32. The Kzinti BC isstill seven or eight hexes behind the D7; the bus vehicles areeven further back.

The net tally at the beginning of Turn 4 - the Kzinti has dealtlight damage to a flank shield of the D7 with standarddisruptors, taken fairly heavy damage to its own #1 from UIM-assisted Klingon overloads, and has spent the bulk of itsspecial drones in order to make the D7 burn three points ofreserve warp and surrender a (questionably) superior boardposition to the BC.

The scenario above does not require clairvoyance orexceptional play on the part of the Klingon - it's simply a properand reasonably well-timed execution of the most commonKlingon attack pattern. And it makes the use of a shotgundrone pattern potentially more dangerous to the Kzinti than theKlink.

Response?--------------------------------------------------

First of all. The d7 and bc have 41 total points available. Thed7 has 2 less battery but 1 more imp and apr. So if we canassume that the D7 can hold 4 Overloads and Move 26, Wecan assume the BC can too. Why? They have the Same powerrequirements and Housekeeping requirements. Now thatmeans that both of us have no powed ecm. We'll get back tothat in a moment.

Second. My launched drones are off my #2 shield and yourship is off my #6 shield(directionally speaking of course.) Giventhe drone movement requirements I don't see how that wouldbe possible. Unless your saying That I'm stupid enough tomove my ship so that I am in front of the drones. The tacticrevolves around the drones opening between me and myopponent before we hit range 8. So why would I movedifferently?

Third, If we assume that I am holding standard disrupters, thenassume that I have max ecm. At range 8 with uim, you wouldhave a 50/50 shot of missing with your disrupters. Why? Youcannot afford ecm and still speed change to move everyimpulse. (only 3 battery.)meaning I took 12 points on a 30 pointshield. I don't call that a severe dent. That is less than 50%.

Fourth, Given the starting positions, your drone chase scene isaskewed. You posted that the drones would be 1 hex behindyou the whole way. I got them the closest of 3 hexesconsistantly and the bus vehicles never got closer than 5.Meaning you had a 17% chance to Id them, which means 2-3of them were left unidentified. So you are probably runningfrom all type 1. You have no way to know for sure.

Fifth, Since you turn on 24-25 and we both move, you put yourship in front of mine with me at range 6 on your rear shield(based on my playing out of your scenario using impulse 20 asyour starting point(credit one hex for the turn and you movingevery impulse). Given the above situation, I could use 3batteries to change my eccm to 3. I now can fire alloverloads(remember I can have all overloads if you do)with noshift.(granted you would have to). In addition if I dont upshift byspending 2(not 3 as you posted, in fact I don't know how youwould get 3 given a move cost of 1 and only gaining 1hex.Rules state that is double the movecost not tripled.) to gainthe extra hex of movement, you end the turn with me 7 fromyour ship and on your rear shield.(baring one move, andassuming I chased you, I could move towards you until youturn, fire for about 14 internals and turn off. You however willstill be running like hell.) My weapons on the next impulse (imp1 of next turn.) are recycleced(i fired on 24) and fullyoverloaded. I fire immediately dropping the shield and doingiternals.(I had already hit it for 24+phasers probably alreadydoing internals.)I also launch the four more Mw drones with 3of them being type 4(1 explosive 1 mw, needed to be postedso there would be no confusion.) They open on impulse 2,unless you continue to move away. When they open they willeither hit you, or make you move away. Letting me turn andrun for about 50% of the turn at 26 again. How? I have 8phaser capacitors with only 4 ph-1. Meaning I can fire my ph-1twice without having to reload them. I only have to payhousekeeping(still had 2 battery) and overload my disrupters.Almost same boat I was in before. You, however are messedup. You have to pay 6(housekeeping and battery(only chargedyou 2 for move and not the 3) plus 16 to overload plus 5 to Het(assume you want to shoot me back.) Leaves you 17 pointsmax to move (i still don't know why you didn't fire phasers buthey I will take it) and arm phasers. You won't be avoiding thedogfights this time. You cannot move enought times byimpulse 15 to keep them from hitting (especially if you het).

So what we the results on impulse 2 of the turn. I have a freshshield facing you at 6 hexes away. I fired full overloads and

phasers for no shift through a down shield really messing yourship up. I will cost me minor internals after you fire but I amvirtually guaranteed a dogfight hit on the same downed rearshield.

So explain to me agian how it was beneficial for you to runfrom my dogfights and why I shouldn't take them. I got you intoa very bad position without working that hard. I used your givenscenario against you. (unless your saying this would neverhappen, which makes all of the arguements since this scenariowas posted, moot.Why? Noone has posted another scenariofor me to comment on.)

Final result. You took 24+phaser damage through a previouslydowned shield. You had some minor internals before and arelooking at about 45-50% destroyed(you have about 95 totalinternal boxes on your ship and I already have done 26 fromdisrupters(both firings) plus 8 phaser-1 with no shift range 6-8(about 24 more)) with another 24+ points headingunavoidably towards your downed shield. Odds are you bugout. However I will willingly destroy you if you stick around. Ionly have slight damage to my ship and have far betterfirepower than you at this moment. (your rear shield only had22 boxes on it anyway.)

Care to comment now. I easily was able to get there and staythere. How? I let you fire at range 8 on my front shield for 24 inexchange for one firing for internals on your rear. I thinkanyone would make that trade.

As for the plasma issue. Fast weasel dogfights? Once theyopen they have own lock on. Meaning they are undistracted byweasels. So fast weaseling them only results in youslowing/stoping in front of them and getting hit. Unless yourweaseling outside of 6. But that would be stupid, would'nt knowwhat the drones were and I could still shoot it down before theyopened. Thanks, proved my point for me and proved the nextpoint too.

The only ones who cannot see the value of the tactic is youguys. I posted before that I have used this tactic successfullyfor about 14 years. It isn't new to me. It is however new to you.Until you guys stop making mistake after mistake you willnever beat it. Which is why I posted it. I wanted other kzintiplayers to see that this tactic will cause your opponent to makea reckless bad decision which can easily be capitalized on.Don't believe me. Look at the quoted post on how to avoid it.They willingly let me get 2 fully overloaded shots inside range 6on a rear shield that had only 22 boxes. I scored an easy 48with no shift without phasers. I didn't even have to fire morethan 4 drones for them to do it.

I am actually looking foward to playing you kevin. Since youeasily believe the quoted post on avoiding the dogfights is theway to go. I am willing to bet that you would have traded methe range 8 shot for the range 6. Difference (assuming I let youshoot the front shield without turnig first.) I scored moreinternals than you. I had 8 more boxes of shield to assorb yourdamage than you did which means I took less internals. Wantto do that twice in a row? I will. I am open to another postedscenario.


Also Marc, I pissed away alot of bpv(yeah 6(average of 1.5 adrone four drones)) to get you to move 10 burn you reservewarp and give me a shot that nets 14 internals for none doneto me or make some other tactical mistake like trying to fastweasel dogfights that are undistracted by weasels. Thank youagain for proving my point. The light was always on, You justrefuse to step into it.


Sorry Marc. As it was not you who posted the comment on fastweaseling the dogfights. The point of having your opponentmake a tactical mistake was proven yet again by that post. Imistakely gave you the credit for that post. I appologize.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Wednesday, July 31,2002 - 02:45 pm: Edit

In the Response section of Hardy's post (hard to know who'stalking there), I find it interesting that the Kzinti has standarddistruptors (and therefore a guaranteed 2 ECM shift) in the firstpart of the turn, and overloaded disruptors later on in the turn.

Neat trick. How much handwavium does that require?

F°

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 03:11pm: Edit

Given all this talk of "I might have overloads", or ECM, orstandards, etc; How about ECM drones? The MW used in thistactic are speed 32's, loaded with armor to slow them downand make them more survivable. If the Kzinti has got 32's, sodoes the Klingon (though obviously not as many). I'd submitthat the most effective use of Klingon speed-32 drones isType-III ECM drones. Admittedly, an ECM drone can bephasered away, but it does add an additional ECM elementthat has been notably left out in all of this (by everybody itseems).

A lot of assumptions are being made in all of this seeminglyendless (and often circular) analysis. I'm sure there arecircumstances when a big wave of dogfights can force anopponent to turn off before he would have liked. I'm also surethere are many circumstances where it can be defeated by awell placed t-bomb, an unexpected speed change or someother unexpected EA arrangement. It is also worth noting thata Kzinti cruiser with two C-racks and two B-racks can usuallylaunch enough drones to force an equivalent opponent to turnoff anyway. The novelty of the MWs is not that it can force aturn off, or that it will cause whithering damage (4-6 Type IVswith a half space of internal armor can be devestating), justthat the option of burning phasers or ADDs to kill drones ratherthan shoot the other guy is really not attractive.

Frankly, I find this conversation sort of pointless. As a generalrule, I've found that the more a tactic has to be explained inprecise detail to be justified, the less likely it is to be effectiveover a wider range of circumstances. Doesn't mean it isn'tvalid, at least in some limited cases, just that it isn't a good-for-everything, fire-and-forget.

Sorry for the rant. Just seems like both sides of this issue aturning blue in the face with no end in sight.

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 -04:25 pm: Edit

Michael:

First, you still haven't addressed how you get a 12 hexendurance, speed 32 dogfight to hit a speed 26 ship movingaway from the drone, beginning at a range of six. Answer: youdon't, unless he wants to trade position for hits. So thequestion is how much does this cost you in terms of points andrack space.

Second, you clearly aren't building your drones correctly.Please tell me how you calculate your drone costs and arriveat 1.5 BPV for a T-IV MW with fast submunitions.

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 -04:28 pm: Edit

Third, what Jeremy said. Your detailed explanation ofassumptions evidences the lack of general applicability thistactic has. It's useful at times, but it is not the appropriate tacticfor what you represent it to be.

By Scott Young (Scott) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:07pm: Edit

Well, I've learned one thing from this MW shotgun discussion,and that's that there is no size limit to individual posts...

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:16pm: Edit

I'll put it this way. In a game this complex, there are a plethoraof variables that can be taken into account. Someone might dothis or might do that. The only way we'll see how well thisworks is for it to be played out. Until then, this is just circulararguing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 07:37pm: Edit

Also, you don't really need to ID, there is nothing else thedrones can be. The type IV released submunitions and is stilltracking so it must have an explosive module. Submunitionsmust be dogfight drones. What's to ID?

Also at the speeds given there is a good chance to drop ashield and place a transporter bomb moving past it forcing thedrones to follow and detonate the Tbomb.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 -09:13 pm: Edit

There are many good options to temper the given tactic,almost all give away either the initiative or board position.1. run them outThis is a likely strategy, denying the opponent a decent shot isthe trick2. Counter drone the bus vihiclesAs long as they impact before they reach r6 you are fine. Haveto allow them to get ahead of you though3.Phasers or ADDSLast minute stop-gag measure. Can be effective but at whatcost4. Tbomb them.This is able to be done as long as you know how to manueverthem correctly. Do not drop the mine and then have the dronesmiss it and hit you

A few notes on the "shotgun bonanza".It is expensive in BPV:tim MW 3 tvif submunitions0.5 +2.5 + 1.5=4.5 for the drone xternal armor is extrativFw/1sp armor MW6 pts(1+2.5+1.5+1)

So yes while it may be effective it is expensive. For a singlespread of 2+2 is 21 points and then you have other drones tobuy speed upgrades for(like 7 more points for spd 20s).

Is it worth it? We shall see.... Of course reloads are free.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 12:14am: Edit

Seeing as how M.Hardy cannot quote nor address speceficpeople in his answers nor specefic quotes I give up.

If he cannot follow the discussion why should I bother trying?

As a parting comment I will clarify another error by Mr.Hardy; ifI weasel your dogfight bus drones before they pop andmaintain weasel restrictions, your dogfights will and do acceptthe weasel as the target whether its dead or not.

I only WISH I could get people to throw bpv away like he does.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Thursday, August 01,2002 - 12:14 am: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Also, you don't really need to ID, there is nothing else thedrones can be. The type IV released submunitions and is stilltracking so it must have an explosive module. Submunitionsmust be dogfight drones. What's to ID?------------------------------------------------------------------------

One correction. A bus vehicle will continue tracking even if ithas no warhead. (FD8.221)

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 12:48am: Edit

As a side note, most ships can only launch 1 type IV MWdrones, Kzinti can do 2. A typical Kzinti has 2B and 2C racks=20 drone spaces. 20% limited availablity is 4 spaces, or 2drones.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 -02:01 am: Edit

Jay: The Kzinti can launch 4 MW drones even if all are onType IV frames provided only 1 space MW warheads are used.See (FD10.66). Now, I don't see any way to include the largeamount of external armor Mr. Hardy formerly built his tacticaround, but then I find that external armor would basicallyremove most of the benefits of the tactic.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 -02:12 am: Edit

Jay> Part of Michael Hardy's tactic involves psending the firsttwo turns unloading the racks and loading additional MWdrones in from storage.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday,August 01, 2002 - 07:17 am: Edit

J.P.:

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Also, you don't really need to ID, there is nothing else thedrones can be. The type IV released submunitions and is stilltracking so it must have an explosive module. Submunitionsmust be dogfight drones. What's to ID?------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Type IVs could be Type Is, you can't spot the differenceunless you ID the drones.


FD10.66 Mixed Modules: Drones ... are considered a singledrone for percentages, but count under the category of themore restrictive type.

Like I said, Kzinti have 2.


If they are unloading their racks, surely the tactical cost ofdoing that in a battle must be weighed as well. Might be OKonce as a suprise, but really not very viable.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 -12:26 pm: Edit

Well at WS3 he gets the free unload by launching drones onT0. This allows for him to launch ti/tiv drones and take racksoffline T1 to reload all his MW drones into the racks. Note thiswill give him 2 MW drones per rack.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Thursday, August 01,2002 - 04:17 pm: Edit

We had a campaign rule that permitted drone ships one turn ofrack games if they chose to forgoe the WS-III T0 launching.

Since it was Y-167, when even Kzinti only had half of theirdrones speed 20, it really helped.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 -05:22 pm: Edit

Jay: In AM99, (FD10.66) got changed to count warheadspaces. The example drone is a Type-IV with 1 space MW andonly counts as 1 space of restricted drones.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 06:55pm: Edit

It would still count as restricted with the armor modules, or as aFast drone in 178.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Friday, August 02, 2002 -02:10 pm: Edit

okay. Seems everyone has missed the point. Considering theexpected defense of speed 26 is the question. Lets look at it.

You are having to fly at speed 26 for the majority of the turn. Ifyou expect to pull a sudden speed shift of 28 out in impulse 28you must announce in 27. You have to be doing 26 sinceimpulse 20 and have announced in 19. Assuming you did 14 tillimpulse 19, 26 till end of turn you spent 19 points on move.Assuming the d7 in the only example given. you would have 19points left (assumes you cleared your 3 batteries tohousekeeping.) You spend 1 point to pick up the lasthousekepping charge, 3 to recharge batteries and 8 to armdisrupters. Leaves you 7 points. If you want a range 8 overloadyou can spend 6 to get 3 overloaded disrupters. Leaving apoint for tracor,transporters,weasel, etc.

So what happens when you get to range 8 and I am holding 2points of ecm (allocated during EA), and 3 overloads and 1standard as well. I am moving speed 24 (annouced on19,takes effect on 20) and then use 2 points of reserve warp togive you a shift of 2(4 ecm). After you fire, I wait until you turnand have used your reserve energy to speed change and shiftmy ecm to eccm (3 points from remaing 3 batteries) to counteryour ecm drone. I then fire inside of range 8 my 3 overloadsand my standard plus my phaser 1s at no shift.

The answer to that is i dish out more damage to you(internals ifall disrupters hit) than you do to me on a shield that has 8 lessboxes than mine. And the next time you decide to make thepass, I will get to fire on the downed shield. No way for you tokeep me from doing it.

Quote:As a parting comment I will clarify another error by Mr.Hardy; ifI weasel your dogfight bus drones before they pop andmaintain weasel restrictions, your dogfights will and do acceptthe weasel as the target whether its dead or not

Great, now as standard operating procedure on weaseling youweasel all drones outside of range 6. Because you have noway of knowing what the drones launched at you are until theyrelease. So now all I have to do is launch drones at you andyou will weasel them on the assumption they are MW. So youare now doing speed 4 or less for who knows how long waitingfor my drones to pop to maintain weasel restrictions. I thinkthat is called the kill me tactic if i read the Tactics Manual right.

QuoteA few notes on the "shotgun bonanza".It is expensive in BPV:tim MW 3 tvif submunitions0.5 +2.5 + 1.5=4.5 for the drone xternal armor is extrativFw/1sp armor MW6 pts(1+2.5+1.5+1)

here are the actual costs.5 to upgrade from 20 to 32(speed 20 is mandatory and doesnthave to be paid for out of commander's options)1.5 to upgrade sub to 32.5 for external armor 1 space2.0 for 1 space of mw(exchange 1 explosive(2.5-.5)).5 for atg.total 5 points for the type IV. 4.75 for type 1's. Total cost is 14.5bpv of commanders options.

14.5 bpv nets 9 drones.(1st load plus 2 reloads) so 14.5/9 =approximately 1.5 a drone. Any Questions.

Quote:Jay: In AM99, (FD10.66) got changed to count warheadspaces. The example drone is a Type-IV with 1 space MW andonly counts as 1 space of restricted drones.Actually SFB online clarified that last march. They stated thatthe type 4 counts as 2 spaces of limited. For a number ofreasons. First of which is that the speed 32 is a framemodification and affects both spaces, second was that thedrone is counted regardless of spaces as most restrictive type.Which means that if I had a 5 space drone(no such thing) withone space of limited it would count as 5 spaces of limited.As for the external on the drone. Rule fd10.66 states that adrone with mixed modules counts as 1 drone of the mostrestrictive type. That means that once it is counted as limited Ican put as much limited stuff on it as possible. It will only countas limited once. Not once for every limited Item i have on thedrone.

one final point. I can now expect that the klingon, in order to beable to maintain a speed fast enough to outrun the possibleuse of my Mw, is going to be flying at 26 for almost half theturn. Makes my job alot easier to track his energy uses and hedoesn't know If I have MW or not.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Friday, August 02, 2002 -03:55 pm: Edit

What exactly is the plan here?

What I am seeing is that the Kzin is launching alot of drones inone turn, most of which are going to expire in like 10 imps.

Is this it?

Oh, and because of this, the Kzin is getting 2-3 OL shots onthe same shield of the enemy?

(Just want to ensure I am hearing things right)

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 04:22pm: Edit

You can't hold unannounced ecm or eccm anymore, Michael.Havn't been able to since commanders.

And any type IV drone all of the spaces have armor andspeeds so would be limited.

And you took your racks out of service for a turn which couldbe deadly.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, August 02, 2002 -05:07 pm: Edit

A note to Hardy......

Drones always begin their loadout as slow drones, you mustpay the full point to get them to Fast status if that is available.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 05:39pm: Edit

To be honest, when flying a Klink against a Kzinti, my usualmethod is to use my drones against his, especially if he'slaunching huge waves. Until I've cleared the Kzin out of hisbasic supplies (the SPs, for a start) I'll probably hang out atR15 with standards.

I have 3 more power, a better turn mode and an ECM drone,so I intend to use them. On a floating map with no time limit, Ihave no business getting into R8 until I want to.

The ADD can take care of a lot of drones if I'm in no hurry. Ithas 36 shots, which should kill about 20 drones.

If we compare a D7B in Y179 (BPV 146 with all 1M drones)with a Kzin BC (142 with all 1M), MH's special drones give me2 T-bombs and my 3F-ECM drone, with roughly equal BPVtotal. I'm happy with that.

It gets easier for the Kzin on a fixed map, but that's what youexpect with a seeking race, and would be true no matter thedrones.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 05:55pm: Edit

By Michael Hardy;

okay. Seems everyone has missed the point.

"everyone" in that sentence meaning you, I presume.

By Rodger Burns (Greymystic) on Friday, August 02, 2002 -06:50 pm: Edit

I stopped believing that Michael Hardy had any sense ofrealism or proportion awhile ago. Along about the time that heclaimed that he could fire standard disruptors at 12, withenough ECCM up to avoid any shift, then turn away, engage

erratics, switch to six points of ECM, and run away at speed28.

I *really* want to know how his group managed to get thePositron Flywheel working on his BCX...

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Saturday, August 03, 2002- 07:59 am: Edit

I will concede that you can run at 26+ plus on the first wave ofthe mw drones. Big deal. What happens when at the end ofthat wave. Well you have lost your number 4 shield(or realclose to it). You have burned your reserve warp(but then sohave I). So lets assume that d7 from the example of how to runfrom the MW drones. It has 38 points of power and 3 emptybatteries.(assumes I did no internals or hit no power on thoseinternals.) Housekeeping costs 4 leaving 34. Rechargingbatteries leave 31. Assuming the same 12 impulses at 26 restof turn at 14, the d7 spends 19 points on movement. Leaves12. If the d7 arms all dirupters(assuming no internals or nodisrupters hit on internals)it has 4 points left. That 4 points isleft for ecm,phasers,transporters, etc. So what happens whenthe second shot comes in. Does the d7 try to run again,possibly giving me a shot on the rear shield? Does it try toshoot them all down? What?What happens if I have been firing only 3 mw and 1 normaldrone. I could concievably have 3 shots. How do you avoid thesecond or third shot? Noone has been able to answer thatquestion. The tactic revolves on multiple shots and patience.

Actually Roger, I posted that in response to a d7 holding 4 fulloverloads running at 26 the whole turn and and using reservewarp to change speed to 28. So i was not the one posting infantasy, i just responded to it.

Congradulations Jim, The actual only way to kind of beat theshotgun is to keep the range open. Since shotguns are upcloseweapons, it would be logical to assume that the mw shotgun isone as well. The problem comes in that I can launch both sp'son turn 1, fire 4 non mw drones on turn 0 and turn 2. So whendo you decide to close? The second you start closing you canbet the MW will be heading your way. They may come inwaves of 2, 3 or 4. So what drones do you shoot and when. Ihave way more drones than you and I am not afraid to usethem. And the point was brought up before. Are you willing totrade fogfights for dogfights. I actually attempt, when peoplekeep the range open, to run the add's out by making you firethem every turn. If they fire once in a turn they cannot reloadthat turn. Once I get them out of add's, it is a relatively simplematter to overwhelm the defenses and hit the target.

Quote:A note to Hardy......

Drones always begin their loadout as slow drones, you mustpay the full point to get them to Fast status if that is available.True however rule s3.221 states that drone speeds are notcounted as commanders options unless they are of a restrictedor limited availability. Since the rules require that all my dronesin year 178 be speed 20, I don't have to count that .5 bpvagainst the limit of commander's options. I actually set mydrone load out to the number of type 4's and type 1's I amgoing to use. I then pay to make them all speed 20 before Ispend any commander's options on them.

Actually Tim , the Idea is to wear my opponent down. Sinceeveryone seemed to be in agreement on running from the firstshot of drones and placing their #4 shield to me. Theycontinued to post stating that they would continue to run fromany launched MW and would undoubtadly give me the sameshot(this case overloaded) on the same shield. So in a sense,Yes that was their brilliant plan to defeat my shotgun. Allow me

2-3 shots of overloads on the #4 shield so that they couldcontinually run out my dogfights. And they wanted to know howI was going to stop them from doing it. Didn't make sense tome either.

By Michael Hardy (Sharpclaws) on Saturday, August 03, 2002- 08:04 am: Edit

Quote:You can't hold unannounced ecm or eccm anymore, Michael.Havn't been able to since commanders

So what your saying is that I cannot allocate 2 points to ecmduring ea. Then use reserve warp later in the turn to changemy level to 4? Then use my reserve warp later in the turn againto change my levels to 3 eccm and 3 ecm?

By Rodger Burns (Greymystic) on Saturday, August 03, 2002 -11:06 am: Edit

Mister Hardy:

Mind telling me exactly where I put down that I was flying aKlink in at you at Speed 26 the entire turn? Oh, that's right, Ididn't. And with good reason - I actually try to post tactics thatare possible.

First off, I explicitly stated that four overloads could be providedin the Klink during EA with a well-timed speed change. Nospeed anything "for the entire turn" here. Second, while I neverexplicitly stated my original speed incoming (a minor error), Idid state that I'd need 3 reserve warp to make the upshift afterImpulse 20. I ain't going that fast if I need that much warp forthe upshift (and in fact, my original Klingon was coming in at arespectable Speed 21). Third, I wasn't using EW. You want toplay with EW, feel free - just remember that I get ECM drones,and you don't, since you threw your allotment away on thosesilly MWs.

In short, my speed plot and EA plot was legal. (It helps that myship starts with 39 generated power, of course.) There ain't noway, though, that your BC is paying for standards,housekeeping, nine points or more of EW, erratics, *and* stillmanaging anything more than about twelve moves for the turn.Your glorious "run away after firing at range 11" tactic gets youmoving -maybe- Speed 20.

Stupid kat.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 11:30am: Edit

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps we should all just drop iton Michaels tactic? Clearly, no one is going to change theirmind. Once he plays a game and the outcome is reported, thevalidity of his tactic will be more clear. Heated discussion andname calling at this point will only get the thread shut down.How about we move on to a new Kzinti tactic?

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, August 03, 2002 -11:47 am: Edit

Mike, Mike, Mike...........always a voice of reason. You shouldquit that, it is a dangerous habit to get into.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday,August 04, 2002 - 02:45 am: Edit

New Question

The map is 4 fixed maps, A, B, C and D all in a row.

After an unsuccessful base assault consisting of D6M, D7Dand D6D, the D6D with a great deal of sheild damage,escapes.

The Klingon high command find that they can only afford toremove one vessel from their picketing and send one C7 toreach it and escort it back into Klingon space.

The Year is 179, EW is in play and the 4 maps are fixed.

The Klingons Start in any 40YY hex of map D facing E or Fstarting speed 30 and must leave via the 01YY hexes indirections E or F of map A.

The Kzintis can only send a task group ( not knowing the shipsinvolved beyond the D6D ), they dispatch a CCH and an MDC.The Kzintis set up in any 01YY hex of map D with a startingspeed of 30 and a facing of B or C.

If the Klingons leave map A in the prescriped manner then theKzintis will gain 0% of the BPV as victory points for forcing thedisenagement, any other disenagement by the Klingons shallcount as destruction of that vessel.

The D7D may only have 10% of her BPV as commandersoption items and ddrone speed upgrades ( she has repaired alltrhe sheild damage by the time the Kzinti vessels arrive ) andonly one reload. All other vessel may have 20% of their BPVfor commanders option items and drone speed upgrades.

As the Kzinti what is your battle plan!?!

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 03:58pm: Edit

Its a little hard to understand this setup, but as I see it theKzinti are outnumbered 2to1. Their only hope is that theKlingons somehow decide to spread out their forces such thatthey can engage and anchor 1 klingon while the rest escape.

Seeing as the Klingon force has no reason to do this and cansimply concentrate their forces and destroy the Kzinti, I don'tsee this happening.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 -05:03 pm: Edit

Yeah, the Kzin should just get out of the way, otherwise they'llget run over.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday,August 04, 2002 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Geoff:

4 maps in a row with the 01YY of the right map abutted to the40YY of the left.

Kzinti CCH & MDCmatch-up VsKlingon C7 & D6D

Kzinti mission:- prevent Klingon escape through the destructionof one or both hulls ( both hulls being a very unlikely event ) orcausing the Klingon vessels to be pounced on by the picketingvessels ( read, force Klingon disenagement through any hex ofthe map other then Map A 01YY hexes ).

Klingon mission:- escape by one means or another.

Andrew:

Unfortunately there is war going on ( in this local campaign )and the Kzinti Admiaralty have made the destruction of Klingonvessels a priority.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 -10:03 pm: Edit

Michael,Just how many Klingons are there? In your previous post,there was a D7D and a D6M present as well as the C7 andD6D.

Against the two ships, the Kzin are slightly disadvantaged butcan make a decent fight of it. Against the four, the Kzinti aretoast if they fight - the Klingons have more drones, moredisruptors, more phasers and an unbeatable anchor. If the Kzintry, they can probably cripple one of the Klingons for the loss ofboth their ships.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday,August 04, 2002 - 10:36 pm: Edit

I see what happened.

I wrote that the D7D had 10% BPV to buy commander'soptions and one reload BUT I mean to say D6D.

The D7D and D6M both were destroyed in the failed BaseAssault mission.

The D6D is the only surviving vessel from that mission and theC7 has been sent to rescue it and only it.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 12:42am: Edit

Well, the two sides have very equal drone launch capabilities(10 Klingon racks to 11 Kzinti racks, although the Kzinti dohave 4 C-racks). The odd Kzinti advantage is 4 ADD to 1. Thisis probably going to encourage the Klingons to use theirdrones defensively. The net result is that the drones more orless cancel out. Then it comes down to direct fire. Here theKlignons have the edge. The C7 actually matches thephaser/disruptor firepower of both Kzinti ships. And it canprobably bring more to bear in any given arc (9 Ph-1 vs 8 forthe Kzinti). Toss in D6D's Ph-2 and the Klingons have theadvantage. The D6D could instead use its sensor channels toseriously mitigate the Kzinti direct fire (loan OEW to the CCHto neuter it and 80% of the Kzinti direct firepower).

Given that the Klingons can win by disengaging, I don't seethat the Kzinti have much hope. They have to be careful aboutclosing, the C7 is quite capable of seriously hurting either ship,leading to an opening for the Klingons to use their dronesoffensively to finish it off. On the other hand, the Klingons aregoing to have to be on their toes in coordinating their dronedefense. They can afford one or two small mistakes (aka oneor two type-I drones hitting), but not much more.

What, if anything does the D6D still have in its cargo boxes? Idoubt it will really matter, but it might.

My Klingon plan would be to have the two ships remain closemove at moderate speed while using drones in a counter dronemode. Use one special sensor to loan the CCH 6 O-EW whenits in range 15 and otherwise just fire when given the chance.Stay at moderate range (to give time for drone defense). Keepthe weasels hot and the SP for drone defense. Don't hesitateto have the D6D blind its sensor to score internals. If given achance, the C7 has the power to anchor things or play EWgames.

Apart from standard "overwhelm the enemy with drones," I'mnot sure what the Kzinti can do (other than hope for a mistake).Judicious use of ADD and Ph-3 to stop Klingon counter dronesmight help, but that risks getting too close and having the C7decide you really didn't need that ship. A retrograde (eitherforward or in reverse) will give the drones better closingspeeds, and keep the Klingons from getting by until theyactually disengage. And if they in front, the situation will gethopeless, the Kzinti drones will be flying uphill...

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 12:48am: Edit

Whatever campaign that is generating these scenarios is reallydifferent. I don't think we've seen a single standard warshipyet. Just specialty ships...

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Monday, August 05,2002 - 01:39 pm: Edit

I *DO* like, though, that MJC is continuing this from the failedbase assault. Silly one, that.

If the map is fixed, and the Klinks find themselves slippingtoward one edge (to escape a passle of drones), the Kzinticould try to rush up, grab ships, and shove them over the mapedge, as that would win the game. If they fail in the attempt,though, the next turn is not pretty.

Do we have fast drones yet in Y179? As "common" or"standard" or whatever? If so, you just keep on sending thesein at range. If you get lucky, exploit it. If you don't, just get outof the way...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 01:49pm: Edit

Fast drones are Restricted in Y179 (50% on the Kzinti, 20% onthe Klingon).

The problem is that, using their drones in a counter drone roleand supplemented with a phaser or three and tractors, theKlingons can handle the Kzinti drones fairly easily. The Kzintineed to build up a good wave and follow it in, launching asecond spread and trying to overload the Klingon dronedefense. They need the Klingons to blow most of their phaserson drones (or better yet, weasel them off) and then crunchthem with direct firepower. Simply swapping DF will work out inthe Klingons favor.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Monday, August 05, 2002 -02:19 pm: Edit

I guess the tactics of the Kzinti vessels will depend on just howmuch damage constitutes a great deal of shield damage to theD6D. Asuming the ship has no internals, but is missing say 4shield and the other 2 at half strength, it will probably makesense for the Kzin to try to mug the D6D for its victory pointswith a limited engagement against the C7.

I am a little confused as to the layout of this scenario. If theKzin can cripple the D6D, without getting any ships crippledthemselves, do they win? Or do they need to destroy ships toscore points. If the Kzin can damage the D6D at range beforeactually engaging at close range, they should have the edge.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Monday, August 05,2002 - 02:21 pm: Edit

The drone ship has repaired all of the shield damage.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Monday, August 05, 2002 -03:42 pm: Edit

OK, if the ships are using electronic warfare, the Kzinti shipsare doomed. Scout channels can be used to loan EW OR, inthis case, break the lockons of drones out to a range of 15.Two sensors is 6 attempts with half succeeding. That is twopoints of power to remove three drones (based on averagerolls), plus one ADD, 10 drone racks and a bunch of phasers.

Without using the sensors to break lockons, the C7 shouldnever drop below 10 ECM. I'm looking at a giant Klingonvictory.

I do agree with Mr. Kass. Whatever campaign is generatingthese scenarios is pretty silly. Or is it just proposals my MJC?

By Rodger Burns (Greymystic) on Monday, August 05, 2002 -04:07 pm: Edit

Well, the weird thing for me about this scenario is the unusuallevel of cookie-cutterness. The Klingons have two heavy ships- one general-purpose command, one drone bombardment -and so do the Kzinti.

I dunno. I guess I'd replace the Kzinti ships with two or threeCM-type hulls (or maybe a CVL group), and possibly include aKzin SDF coming in from the Klingons' end of the map (as atailing force that paced the Klingons on their retreat). (And yes,the Kzins should have a superior total in BPV, overall. TheKlinks *will* have individual-ship superiority, making it mucheasier for them to score VP via internal damage or forcingdisengagement, and have the useful scenario hook of beingable to disengage from the left map edge for free. This is anadvantage not accounted for in any BPV calculations.)

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 06:07pm: Edit

Ok then, this isn't a chase scenario...its a stand up 2v2 fight.

Now if the 'escaping vessels' were low on supplies and hadprevious damage, and the pursuers were greater in numbersbut spread out, perhaps 1 per map, maybe then we'd have ascenario.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday,August 06, 2002 - 12:23 am: Edit

Okay.

After the failed bases assault, the Near By base and regionalStarbase swapped guarding ships and emediately on theirarrival the Base commander sent them.

They will each arrive in Map D, hex 4001 at the start of thelisted turns. WS-III, heading E and speed 30.CL+Turn 4FF+Turn 7FF+Turn 10

How will this effect the game?

By Rodger Burns (Greymystic) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 -12:44 am: Edit

In all likelihood, it won't. The Klingons will be moving Speed20+ every turn, to take the Kzinti medium-speed drones out ofthe picture, and they'll be heading towards the west end of themap. A CL arriving sixty-odd hexes behind them will have realproblems catching up, and the FFs will only arrive if the Klinksdecide to stick around and let them show up.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 02:25am: Edit

Did you mean map A MJC?


No I did mean D.

The CL won't get to the battling ships, some 60 hexes lateunless the Klinks feel that a C7 + D6D is so far out classing aCCH + MDC that they choose to stick arround and fight.

If the Klinks decide to uses their superior power then the CL+might actually come into play.

On the other hand, if the Klinks come about the CL+ may beforced to withdraw or else face the full power of 2 ships bothbetter than it...but that will open up their "weak" rear sheilds toKzinti fire.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 01:45pm: Edit

I think it would be far more interesting if the reinforcementscame in map A, in front of the fight. This would put a definitetime limit on the Klingons efforts to escape. Coming in behindwon't do anything to this end, and makes it far easier toescape.

For example, as the klingons, I need only avoid protractedtractor engagements with the initial kzin and then blow by themto disengage. If reinforcements were coming in front of me thatwould be harder indeed.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday,August 06, 2002 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Since the Klingon goal is to escape, I don't see why theyshould be stopped as such but rather the Kzintis shouldconcentrate fire on one and let the other escape.

What I really should do is something to balance the situationthat the Klingons can freely escape with something else.

Say Destruction of Klingon ships will generate 50% morevictory points than usual.

Maybe I should allow the arriving ship to be on the north orsouth edge of the map anywhere within 30 hexes of one of aKzinti vessel.

This way if the Klingons want to use their extra firepower for awhile, they can but they risk giving up a whole heap of victorypoints especially after the reinforcements arrive. Or they cansimply leave by marching through a Kzinti drone storm andhope that any internal damage they do to the Kzintis will bemore than equal to what is done to them due to their largeroriginal BPVs.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 -12:24 am: Edit

MJC,

Here is the problem with the the scenario. Lets assume the twosides close to range 4. At this point, the C7 and Kzintiexchange alpha strikes. The Klingon fires through a +1 shift (itmight have no shift, but the Klingons are aiming for ECM). TheCCH fires through a +3 shift (ECM drone + 6 OEW + 6 gen on

each Klingon). The MDC will only have a +1 shift (ECMdrones).

The C7 averages 51 points of damage--a crushed shields and~20 internals. The D6D still has all its phasers for dronedefense, or if given the chance, to pour some salt (internals) inthe wound the C7 just created.

The Kzinti force averages 25 points of damage. A weak shield.

Now the Klingon decides to hang around. The CL is still goingto be too far behind to be effective. It repeats the attack on thenext turn (through different shields for both sides). Now theKzinti have one almost crippled ship while the Klingons have aship with two weak shields (and the second exchange isprobably less favorable due to the loss of weapons in the firstexchange). Note that the C7 can fight through 5 shields due toits FH+L/R disruptor arcs and Klingon phaser arcs (3 and 5take some skill, but are useable, especially against a hurtenemy). The D6D can use all 6 shields. The Klingons havecrippled one ship and then disengage two undamaged ships.

The situation could be worse, a range 4 oblique where theKzinti guess wrong could end up with a very hurt Kzinti ship (ora hurt ship for no return damage). The C7, not threatened withdamage witholds fire until range 2, scoring ~60 points ofdamage, and worse, the D6D can now add another 18 pointsof damage (with 5xPh-2). 50 internals is going to rock eitherKzinti, and the next pass (even if only the C7 fires at range 4)will almost certainly cripple it (an offensive Klingon drone strikecould then actually result in a ship kill). At this point, theKlingons might even be sufficiently far ahead to stay aroundand then be willing to take on the CL in a couple of turns. Apiecemeal defeat of the enemy. If one of the two original shipsgoes down without scoring significant internal damage, why notkeep on going?

The net is that the only Kzinti plan is to stay outside of range 5(and really outside overload range). And then hope they canscore drone hits (dubious given the Klingon's drone defenses).But if the Kzinti stay at range, the Klingons are going to havean easy time passing the region. This will probably be a draw,but the C7 might be able to crack a shield for a few internalsinside range 15...

If you add the CL to the starting forces, it becomes a challengefor the Klingons. Drone defense is going to be very interesting.The Kzinti direct fire still won't be great, but will be a threat (theD6D doesn't have the power to force 2 ships to have a +3shift). I'd guess that the direct fire exchange would then beabout equal. And the Klingons have to be wary of significantinternal damage since it will start to seriously hurt their dronedefense (even against any pair of Kzinti ships).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday,August 07, 2002 - 01:02 am: Edit

Well what if the Kzintis aim for hammering the D6D with alltheir drones and R8 Disruptor and Phaser Fire from the CCH?

Can the D6D really defend it'self even with the C7 trying tointercept the drones?

If the Kzinti's Retrograde building up to 24 'til the CL+ arrives,the CL will arrive and with the Klingons following at speed 20,they'll only be 80 hexes away from the start and still 80 hexesfrom the exit and about 80 ( maybe more ) hexes from the CL+.

Even if the Klingons run out of there at speed 31 it'll still take 5turns and 6 impulses to leave them map, meaning if the CLdoes arrive in the same area as the Kzinti ships on turn 4,

Klingons might not have done enough damage to either theCCH or the MDC to make the situation win-able.

The Klingons must cross 160 hexes to gain the zero penaltydisengagement. That's actually a big consummer of time andallows for the CL+ to arrive and enegage, unless they make atotal bolt for the exit.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 -09:37 am: Edit

If the goal is for the Klingon to escape, the Klingon forceshould be weaker than the Kzinti force. What is the BPV ofthese 2 forces? From the sound of itThe Klingon is stronger, sohe should just waste the Kzin and then exit to win the victoryconditions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By David Kass (Dkass) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 08:22pm: Edit

At range 8, the Kzinti direct fire is only going to do about 11points of damage. Almost irrelevant. Sure it will eventuallywear down the D6D's shields but the Kzinti don't have thepower to fire overloads and most of their phasers every turn.Remember that there is no bonus for disengaging withundamaged shields.

The Klingons, assuming the D6D's cargo is empty have 60drones in their racks and another 108 as reloads (orscatterpacks). Assuming a reasonable 8 turns to disengage,The Kzinti can launch a maximum of 89 drones from theirracks (this includes reloading the racks, all type-I drones). Thisis almost certainly going to be reduced by launching sometype-IV drones. The Klingons can counter 70 of these with theirown drones (and are unlikely to use many, if any type-IV sincea type-I is just as good for counter drone work). While bothsides can use scatter packs, this will cancel out (the Klingonshave enough spare drones to match the Kzinti scatterpacks).The C7 ADD should be able to stop another 16 drones(assuming average rolls at optimum range, including reloadingthe rack). That leaves three drones total over 8 turns that needto be killed with phasers, sensor channels and T-bombs.

The above is almost certainly optimistic on the Klingon's part.But, over 8 turns, they have lots of opportunities to fire theirphasers, use special sensor to turn off drones and lay T-bombs. The largest danger is going to be one (maybe twice)two turn drone wave. This is 30 ship launched drones. This iswhen the Klingons look at WW and T-bombs for defense(although turning off a SP or two could really annoy the Kzinti--as could a good disruptor strike). Note that the Kzinti will haveto buy a lot of ATG to use their launch potential. They onlyhave 24 drone control channels and if they limit themselves to24 drones at a time, the Klingons will have many fewerproblems. The Klingons also have 24 channels and the D6Dcould use a sensor for another 6 if it became necessary.

I'm not saying the drone defense will be easy. But it is definitelydoable for a competent and confident Klingon player. Majormistakes, bad play or a lack of confidence could definitely killthe Klingons (panic at the sight of 42 drones on the boardwould be fatal). Ignoring my rust at major drone defenseoperations, I'd give myself better than 3/4 chance to avoidinternal damage from a drone (either directly or by direct fire ona drone weakened shield).

The CL+ is just not a factor. Lets say the Klingons goof off andit only finds itself 60 hexes behind (with the Klingons still 100hexes from escape). This takes the Klingons 5 turns at a pokeyspeed 20. During that time, if the CL+ does speed 31, it will justreach range 5 at the end of the last turn (and it will not be able

to get any drones to hit--they'll be at range 1). It will be insiderange 15 on the last 2 turns (to be able to contribute usefuldirect fire). With the sitution that close, the Klingons will almostcertainly speed up a bit to render the CL+ a non-factor. Ormaybe drop T-bombs to force it to dodge or let it deal with awave of 6 to 10 drones closing at an effective speed 63. TheCL+ barely has the defenses to handle this in a normalsituation. Here it will cost it distance and possibly even speed...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday,August 08, 2002 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Actually.

The Cargo is empty...should have mentioned this earlier butI'm saying it now.

Now to reiterate what was said before.The D6D only has one reload.

That's at most 36 Type I and another 36 Type Is for 72 drones,not 108.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 11:51pm: Edit

The D6D has 36 drones in its racks. The C7 has 24 drones inits racks. This is 60 ready to fire drones.

The D6D has one set of reloads, 36 drones. The C7 have 3sets of reloads for 72 drones (see the ship--it has triplereloads). Thus, combined they have 108 reload drones. Andthey are unlikely to need more than 20 of them (maybe asmany as 30 if they use a few shipwreck drones). That leavesthe other 78 for scatter packs.

Now, the situation might be a bit more interesting if the D6Dhad no reload drones--this would foce the C7 to transfer some(probably on turns 1 and 2) and about halve the number ofscatter packs possible. On the other hand, that would probablyjust encourage the Klingons to go ship hunting (destroyedKzinti racks will reduce the number of drones that need to belaunched). Or they might try to get out faster (aiming for 6 to 7turns instead of 8 or 9).

The Kzinti obviously have many more drones (the MDC has200 spaces in its cargo boxes). But this is irrelevant since theywon't manage to launch more than about 120 drone spacestotal (including scatter packs--they may be able to do a bitbetter if they use all type-IV drones, but the total number ofdrones launched then drops significantly).

By mike mendick (Mikey2) on Friday, September 13, 2002 -02:24 pm: Edit

After playing scenario SH88 (for want of a sword) for like the6th time (after bumping up the Kzins yet again), I have come tothe conclusion that either I do not know kzinti tactics for beansor this scenario is very unbalanced.

so my question is, you are the commander of a kzin squadrontasked to take out a lyran BATS. you have (modified fromoriginal scenario) a BCH, and 2 CMs. ships have all refits, TheBCH has an MRS. EW is in use. You may buy any drones upto the historical percentages, it is Y180.The lyrans have a refitted BATS, with an MRS, A fully refittedDW, and a squadron of ZYs. on turn 6, a lyran BCH will arriveon any map edge(modified from original scenario).

As the kzin, what drones would you buy, and what would yourtactics be?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, September 13, 2002- 02:42 pm: Edit

Mike. Was this scenario developed before or after the 99revisions of the base rules? The ability for BATS to fireweapons without blinding their scout channels is huge andmight require a rebalancing of the forces. At first glance, I don'tsee how you have any chance at all - you can't even cripplethe BATS before T6 without sacrificing both CMs andBATS+BCH>BCH.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday,September 14, 2002 - 09:39 am: Edit

A.P.

Shouldn't the math be.

BATS+0.#BCH>BCH

The trouble with the value of 0.# is that it'll be quite large ( 0.7or 0.5 ) because the BCH+2MC isn't going to beat a BATS +6ZYs + a FRIGGING FULLY REFITED WAR CRUISER inanything like 6 turns.

As to tactics.Scatter-pack, scatter-pack, scatter pack...and use MDCsinstead of MCs.Hose the DW first...send out just enough drones to make itchoose descression as the better part of valour and then hit thefighters.Hit the ZYs with Starfish.After you've dealt with the fighters, and the DW, you'll haveabout a turn before the DW comes back, so make your 18 ( orthere abouts ) Type IVM drones count against the BATS.Try to stay outside of R15 or less to avoid Sensor Games andincreadible Ph-4 fire.

Personnaly I'ld expect to have two crippled MCs by the timethe drones are inside their Speed x Endurance distance of theundoubtedly retreating DW.And have another crippled every turn after that.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 -07:03 pm: Edit

Given the initial forces and reinforcements, I suspect the Kzintihave to go for broke. By turn 4 at the latest, they'll have tocommit to a charge+anchor on the BATS. The BATS issomewhat power deficient (if it tries to lend significant EW).Use the earlier turns to build a drone wave and use disruptorsto either hurt the DW or whittle down the Z-Y. Do it againduring the charge (I don't think the ships have the power tooverload their disruptors, during the charge, so don't try). Saveyour scatterpacks until the turn of the charge. They allow youto get drones 2 or 3 hexes behind your ships (as well as awave in front of your ships).

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Saturday, September 14,2002 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Anchoring the BATS is kinda pointless (G7.90). Hitting a basewith seekers often requires running it out of weasels.

By mike mendick (Mikey2) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 -06:57 pm: Edit

glad to hear you guys say that, I was beginning to think I waslike the worst Kzin ever.

The original scenario was a kzin BCH+CM+2 interceptors witha lyran BB (steadof BCH) showing up 1/2way through turn 2. (itwas before the base upgrade rules)

its funny to have a lyran out-drone you. Ever see a 36 dronewave meet 36 counter drones, while you are trying to dancearound 16 drones targeted on your ships?.. erg.

I was thinking that the 2CM+BCH were a fairly good match, butwasn't able to pull it off. how much more should the kzins get?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 -07:12 pm: Edit

Maybe a scout of some kind to counter some of the base's bigEW advantage?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday,September 15, 2002 - 09:38 pm: Edit

I think if the Kzintis had another 2 BCs and a GSV, they mightbe able to break even.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 -10:12 pm: Edit

Note that the Kzinti start off at range 20 to the base and it onlyhas 2 WW on turn 1. I'm not sure they can get drone hits thatturn due to the other defenses (4 ESG). And even on laterturns, the BATS only has 4 WW total--20 impulses ofprotection.

I'd forgotten about (G7.90), but the key was more getting torange 1 to deliver the drones than the tractor. In either case,the ships would have to wear the WW out (since the basecould preemptively weasle). The tractor is more to let the shipsmaintain speed while staying near the base.

I'm still of the opinion that it requires a "go for broke" strategey.If going for a turn 1 attack, the disruptors are probably bestused to swat Z-Ys before they can launch drones (due to the16 impulses for them to be launchable). This is even more trueof the original scenario.

The Interceptors aren't great but aren't bad.

My balance suggestion would be to replace the Lyran DW witha POL or MP.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, September 15,2002 - 10:44 pm: Edit

David Kass. If using the Optional Shuttle Deck rules, you won'trun the base out of weasels.

By mike mendick (Mikey2) on Monday, September 16, 2002 -10:44 am: Edit

david, don't forget the 24 fighter launched drones, DWs 2tbombs and the bases 4(and usually a shatterpack). against areasonably competant base commander you will never get adrone hit on the base on the first 2 turns.

actually, using the optional shuttle deck rules made me think ofanother tactic I never tried... hm.....

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Monday, September 16, 2002 -05:43 pm: Edit

BATS are pretty tough with the fighters and MRS about 350BPV. Adding a scout to the Kzinti might work as a balancing

factor. If nothing else bid for defence with what turn the LyranBCH shows up.

Try having almost all of your drones in the racks Type IV with3/4 armor and 1/4 explosive(12 points to destroy, do 6 points ofdamage). These can survive a TBomb and go right throughESGs.

By Burt Quaid (Burt) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 07:03pm: Edit

Playing the Lone Grey Wolf and it is the first round. C8K withECM and MW drones but no MRS. How can two FFshamstring this guy armed with 2 typeI and 1 typeIV per rack?This assumes they both fight as the orders roll is yet to bemade.

burt

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 -07:14 pm: Edit

Valiantly, as all Kzin should...

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, December 20, 2002 -12:03 am: Edit

Burt: I played this many years ago in the Commander's Edition.The only thing two FFs can really do is to maintain contact andsurvive. Keep your speed up with extra power in EW/EM andreinforcement. Endure for 20 turns and see what comes innext. Try very hard to make the first round last long enoughthat you can get a one or even two sets of reinforcements;Forcing him to burn his one allowed Disengagement byAcceleration in an early round is important. The point is that nosingle group, except maybe the CVS group, can do much morethan tail the Kang until reinforcements arrive.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, December 20, 2002 -02:02 am: Edit

Play keep away. If the Klingon charges (which he must), thesecond consecutive turn of Klingon speed 21+ is the best timeto launch scatter packs. Getting hits is not the goal, forcing theKlingon to variously defer pursuit and run out of high speedturns for awhile, or launch large number of drones, anti-dronesand mines for defense (weakening the Klingon in futurebattles) or suffer damage. This is a long campaign; you don'thave to win right away.

The critical tactical decision you must pick is whether to splitthe FF or keep them together should the Klingon crash throughyour drone swarm. Keeping together gives you a fair chance ofdoing lasting damage; splitting keeps the Klingon in place untilreinforcements arrive. If you know Klingon weapon status(through tac intel or good judgement), then split the FFs ifKlingon is overloading; stick together if Klingon forgoesweapons to max on speed and defense.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Friday, December 20, 2002 -07:33 am: Edit

I'm trying to recall...is the C8 limited to a certain speed, like 20,and a particular disengagement direction? If so, the FFs candash ahead of it and at least can send their drones downhillinto it; a concerted scatter-pack attack would help a lot. Thisshould at least force the thing to turn off a bit, slowing it downfor the reinforcement to show up.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, December 20, 2002 -03:24 pm: Edit

Problem is that the Klingon can't simply run, because thereinforcements arrive in 20 turns. The Klingon has to kill itspursuers, and yes, it is limited to speed 20, with some limitedability to exceed that speed.

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GORN TACTICSby michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) Monday, January07, 2002 - 8:34 pmNEW QUESTION:The Romulans are testing the Gorn Perpairedness during acalm spot in the General War by raiding attacks on the newboarder.In the hope that by destroying what enemy vessels arepicketing the area, they can regain a recently lost planet so avessel is sent out to investigate the number of ships needed foran assault on the lost planet.The Romulans wish to regain the planet long enough to re-aquire inforamtion held in a secretly located data storagedevice.A Romulan K7R is sent and finding that only a Gorn BC ispicketing that area of space attempts to regain the planetthrough the destruction, forced disengagement or capture ofthe Gorn vessel.Y180, Floating Map, EW is in play.Romulan starting speed is 20 WS-III, uncloaked.Gorn Starting Speed 20 WS-II.Starting Range 50 hexes.Each vessel may have 20% BPV to purchase commander'soption items.As the Romulan Commander, what is your battle plan?=====by L.LeBlanc (Lessss) Monday, January 07, 2002 - 8:59 pmK7R or K7RB, and should this be in ROMULAN tactics?=====by Alex Chobot (Alendrel) Monday, January 07, 2002 - 9:53pmRead the Tactics Manual? It's a straight-up plasma duel, andmost likely to be inconclusive. At the starting range, don't besurprised if the Gorn goes into a retrograde. As the K7R's goalis the BC itself, not the planet, there's no reason for the BC toengage closely.=====by michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) Monday, January07, 2002 - 11:51 pmSorry.As the Gorn Commander, what is Your Battle Plan?I'ld like to hear particularly with respect to the method of howyou intend to over come the fact that the cloak is the bestknown "Lock-on Breaker".It's a K7Rb as that is correct for the year.Starting headings are F for the Gorn and C for the Romulan.Scenario special rule.If the Gorn Player asks the Controller to scroll the map duringplay more than five times in headings B, C or D, then a smallfreighter will be able to reach the planet safely and beam downtechnicians to take the information storage contraption. Thusthe Gorn ship will be counted as having disengaged.Each scrolling of the map requested by the Gorn player inheadings E, F or A of greater than 15 hexes shall count as -1to the running total of gorn requested scrolls.=====by michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) Monday, January07, 2002 - 11:58 pmThe scroll count can not be lowered below zero.=====by L.LeBlanc (Lessss) Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 12:13 amWell the Gorns decisions are going to be dictated by the valueof the planet. Are there lots of Gorn civilians or personell on theground? Is it a vital mining colony, like gee there is a BCguarding it in the middle of the gen war?

=====by michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) Tuesday, January08, 2002 - 8:07 amYeah.They think there might be a hidden Data Storage device on theplanet and have the BC in the area guarding against thepossibility of Romulan intrussion during the period whilst theywait for specialist investigators to be sent from the GornHomeworld.The fight is in deep space and the planet will at no time appearon the map and thus is not going to be invaded/fired-at duringthe scenario.=====

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 02:53am: Edit

Had an interesting experience trying to run the Gorn in ageneral four-race, two-side campaign. The starting year was165 for all races, and it ended up being the Gorn/Feds vs. theKlingons/ISC.

Against the Klingons the Gorn could do *OK*, but I found that,in the early era, they just couldn't deal with the ISC... and thatwas *before* the ISC got PPDs. The ISC just have everythingthe Gorn have, but more and better. Not that the Klingons wereeasy to fight or anything. Our latest battle was a Gorn CC, CA,DDL, COM & SC vs. a Klingon D7C, D7, D7, F5 & E4. TheGorns popped the E4 and gutted the F5, while the Klingonsnuked both the COM and the DDL, before the Gorns boogiedoff the map.

After some discussion it seems we're going to scrap thiscampaign but use the material for another game that will bebetter balanced and with better logistics for our gamersmeeting... but it struck me that the Gorn really get screwed inan early-war era campaign, even compared to the other races.They get their refits FAR after everyone else.

Anybody out there ever dealt with this before, or is the shortanswer "Don't try to fly Gorns until Y175 against non-Roms"?

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 03:19am: Edit

Dale: I think you're absolutely right about that short answer.Problem is, the game is based on a history in which the Gornhad little in the way of real enemies for the better part of acentury. The Paravians were dealt with early on, the Romswere only a nuisance once the Gorn developed tactical warpand prevented the Roms from getting it. A bit less than 100years later the Gorn meet and briefly fight the Feds, and thenthe Roms get warp but still have a poor fleet. The Gorn get intothe General War late and there was just no impetus for them todevelop refits on a timeline similar to, say, the Klingons orLyrans. The long version of the answer to your problem isprobably to incorporate some kind of research rules to allowthe development of refits in a more timely manner.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 03:37am: Edit

Yeah, I knew it was a problem when I had both of myopponents telling me I should get some kind of early upgradeor bonus or something lest the campaign end in a fell swoop.

The campaign had some other issues that plagued it (fleet sizebeing the main one), but the Gorn imbalance definitelycontributed to busting it.

And the ISC were imbalanced in the other direction, at leastagainst the Gorn. But hopefully Marc will crank out his earlyISC article for Captain's Log sometime... ;-)

If we were gonna use the Gorn again, I definitely thinktechblocks would be the way to go; that or just make it late warand have everyone with refits. Unfortunately, that loses someof the "charm" of playing early ships like the Fed DD or CL, orthe Gorns with G torps.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 04:14 am:Edit

G torps are pretty unimpressive with free movement. Now ifpeople have to plot their whole turn give me any plasma anyday.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 06:51am: Edit

Dale,

Yeah, the short answer sounds right. Especially before the plusand F refits, the Gorn were wretched. The thing about the ISCis historical, though. The ISC did come along and kick the crapout of the Gorns, and eventually everyone else, as well. Theirships are very good, and for a reason.The Gorn are my personal least favorite race to play; like yousaid, they don't have anything special. The Feds get photonsand drones, the Klingons get UIM's, SFG's, cool drones, andkick-ass turn modes, the Lyrans and Hydrans get 2 heavyweapons each; the list goes on. The refit gorn ships are prettygood, but still not very interesting.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, July 29, 2002 -08:17 am: Edit

Personally, I'm rather partial to the early Gorn ships, or at leastthe CA. For only 120 BPV you get 8 P1 (more than anyone butthe ISC in period) and 38 power. It's a reasonable match forother early ships. In a free campaign, I'd take a long look atnever upgrading to BC's - building four CA instead of three BCloses plasma power, but gains phasers and durability.

The CL, though flawed, is also decent value (only 92 points). Iwouldn't take the DD by choice, though.

By L.LeBlanc (Lessss) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 10:46 am:Edit

Well what I did in my way too complex campaign rules was listall the refits as threat specific, or general refit. Anything that isthreat specific can occur early if they encounter that threat orwait until the regular year.

Here is my entry for GornGorn+ Plus Y170 Encounter an enemy with warp (Historically wasFed/Rom Warp) Plasma S from G {{As Gorn are very weakY160-Y168/Y170 especially against Western powers ISERIOUSLY suggest Gorn start with S Torps Y160 as abalance factor or start campaign closer to Y170 ~Y165 orY168}}F Y175 In response to fighters & or PF's/ InterceptorsD Y175 In response to fighters & or PF's/ Interceptors ordeployment of first carrier /escort. First carrier or escortsavailable when fighters are available. You can not have anescort or carrier variant of a base hull type that does not yetexist.


So let me get this straight.

You had three boarders with the opponents or two?

Having three boarders means that you've got to put more shipson picket duty. To create balance you therefore need anincreased ability to manufacture ships.

By L.LeBlanc (Lessss) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 07:18 pm:Edit

MJC 4 players, 2 teams of 2. 2 enemy borders, 1 friendly one.


Yeah...but how far into the game did they get before this TAGTEAM EFFECT came into being!?!

P.S. Thanks for the help with the SSDs of the tourney vessels.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 10:22pm: Edit

MJC, the ability to manufacture ships wasn't an issue. We hada 2 vs. 2 race battle with 2 hostile borders. The main problemwas the Gorn's inability to deal with ISC fleets. It's also beensuggested that, in two more turns when the speed-20 dronebecame general availability, they would have greater troublewith the Klingons.

The problem seems to be, in a campaign format, the Gornsjust get their refits/war ships way too late. By the time the Gorncan build a BC, they would have been paying rent on their ownhomeworld.

This was my first attempt to fly the Gorn in a fleet setting, andalso my first shot at "early Gorn" ships. I'm by no means a bigGorn expert, but they do seem "broken" to me in terms offreeform campaign use unless the starting year is late-war era.

I should note that, in the two fleet battles I fought, none of theplasma I launched did any significant damage as the enemyspeeds were way too high. I had decent success with boltedplasma... centerlined a Klingon fleet twice at range 10 and hitwith more than half of them... but when you consider the GornCA has 2 PL-G and bolts are inaccurate (and the long loadingtime of plasma), it seems a poor adversary to the disruptor.The only plasma that did any damage in the entire campaign,bolts aside, were mass strikes launched at crippled ships thathad no shuttles left and could not outrun the plasma.

For the record we were using a double-sized fixed map forbattles.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Tuesday, July 30,2002 - 09:44 am: Edit

It doesn't just 'seem like' the Gorns get stuff too late - theyreally DO get stuff too late.

At least in a non-historical campaign.

Using the techblocks from the CDH aren't really going to helptoo much. While the techblocks are a really cool idea, propermunchkinism on the drone user's part can still causeheadaches for the Gorn. You have to examine the techblocksvery carefully, and if you can get a neutral umpire to carefullyadjudicate 'reasonableness', then they can work fine.

===============================================

THOLIAN TACTICSby Robert Cole (Zathras6) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 12:14pmQuestion:Small squadron (3 DD)Fixed mapStarting 40-50 hexes apartAssumed enemy is Fed or HydranNo Web Casters or SnaresWhat tactics should the Tholians focus on?=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 1:38 pmWhat is the year, terrain, etc? (details, man, we need details! )=====by Robert Cole (Zathras6) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 1:46pmHmmm...Assume empty space.Probably 175Full EWNo officersI don't have a specific scenario at this point, but just looking forgeneral ideas. Currently, I look at the pre-WC Tholians asdrone-less Klinks with better phasers / shields.=====by Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) Monday, January 28, 2002 -3:48 pmI look at them as targets to be removed from my sky at my firstpossible convinenence.=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 5:18pmTholian should concentrate on killing one ship at a time. Comein to r4 and hit one ship running away and repeating. As thetourney ATC does the turn after your alpha you rechargephasers and not disr to give you spd. Play it as an every otherturn thing unless he comes at you fast then use concentratedfire off non-forward shields to damage him(ie 3,5 shields).=====

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ORION TACTICS=====by Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) Wednesday, January 23,2002 - 2:32 pmOne other comment, I generally dont bother putting more than3 drone racks on a BR because i think the 15 pts for oakdisc istoo expensive. However having a single hellbore can work. Ilike 1 hellbore with 4 phasers myself.=====by Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Wednesday, January 23,2002 - 4:49 pmStephen,If however your BR has just two C-Racks, then you wont evenbe able to launch the maximum amount from your rackswithout the oakdisc.And an orion has to dishout as much as possible as quick aspossible so you can get outta there before being beaten to apulp.So I wouldnt even take DRN's unless I had C-racks(usable totheir fullest) or unless I had a number of other ships to back meup.But you have a good point there, The all Phaser/one Hellboreis rather effective but only on the Battle Raiders on up.Anything smaller just doesnt have enough of what it takes tomake it with that arraingment.=====by Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) Thursday, January 24, 2002 -4:09 pm

Rus: Yes he can (with the C-racks). An Orion withoutOAKDISC can use 3 drone racks at their relevant rate, ratherthan being limited to 3 drones per turn (FD4.4). Of course, if hewas foolish enough to take F-racks for a BPV penalty ... []This allows a Salvage cruiser, CA, BC, etc., to fill the optionmounts with C-racks, ignore OAKDISC, and still launch 6drones/turn (from half of his racks). He can then reload thoseracks while launching from the other three. This is almost thesame net effect as taking the same ship and installing A-racks(before Y175) with OAKDISC, the differences being that the C-racks will be less able to concentrate their drones. The C-rackswill also run through their ready ammunition and one reload inonly 8 turns (total) while the A-racks would require 10 turns forthe same effect, assuming all type-I drones.=====by Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Thursday, January 24, 2002- 9:49 pmHmm.....I will have to check that when I am near my rulebook. But Ihave been pretty sure that isn't the way it works. I will need toCheck it though.Rus=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 1:17 pmI thought without oac-disc the ORION has half control as wellor only can control 3. That allows him to only launch againwhen these are freed some way.=====by Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 3:59pmKerry: No, OAKDISC provides double drone control, but anyship with at least one seeking weapon installed gets normaldrone control, including Orions with a drone rack in an optionmount.=====by Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Friday, February 01, 2002 -4:26 pmThis would be TRUE.=====by Ben Moldovan (Shadow1) Saturday, February 02, 2002 -1:00 amKemaris, I think Nomad is right.=====by Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Saturday, February 02, 2002- 2:11 pmShadow1,If that were true, then an Orion CA with six B-Racks, couldlaunch 3 DRN's early in the turn and when they hit it couldagain launch 3 more.And that would violate what a ship without OAKDISC issupposed to be capable of.Read the seaking weapon rules.Any ship (not race) which does not have seeking weaponsinstalled, can only control a number of seeking weapons equalto 3.Any ship with at least one seeking weapon installed cancontroll a number of seeking weapons equal to 6.No ship can controll more than 6 unless specifcaly stated on itsSSD or in it's ship description.Note that in the case of the Orions, there is a special case inwhich they are under their own special rules. And while thesehave no baring on the Level of seeking weapon control, theystill CANNOT launch more than THREE seeking weapons PERTURN. Period.Since Drones are seeking weapons, this rule applies to theOrions in this manner as well as Plasme-D's which are handledin the same manner as Drones for Orions.Other Plasma torpedoes are not under this restriction.=====by Frank DeMaris Monday, February 04, 2002 - 3:22 amRus: Did you check FD4.4 like I cited?=====

by Kevin M. McCollum Monday, February 04, 2002 - 5:45 pmDo you guys actually read the rules? Orions ships withoutOAKDISC can launch seeking weapons from three mounts attheir maximum rate per turn. That means, if he has six racks,he CANNOT launch three drones, wait for them to die and thenlaunch three more. It DOES mean, he can have three C-racksand lauch two drones from each. It also means he can havethree E-racks and launch a total of twelve type VI drones inone turn.=====by Frank DeMaris Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 3:57 amKevin: Or three plasma-Ds and blow the entire initial loadout indefensive mode in a single turn. LRs with plasma-Ds make forcheap escorts because you don't need OAKDISK or Aegis (3P1s ain't worth the cost of Aegis for, IMAO.)=====by Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) Friday, February 15, 2002 -1:22 pmI put full aegis on my small orion escorts when the battle forcesinstructions say " all escorts must have full aegis." Otherwise, Iput full aegis on the DBR and limited aegis on the LR. Thesmall escort will be 2 hexes behind the fighters it is escorting. Itwill be engaging targets 3 or 4 hexes away, after the fightershave used p3 on them.=====by Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Friday, February 15, 2002 -9:04 pmStephen,I'm not sure what your post in in regards to.In what situation are the escorts you are refering to in?Rus=====

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002- 05:44 pm: Edit

First Rule of the Successful Mercenary.

Never accept a suicide mission.

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Wednesday,September 11, 2002 - 08:54 pm: Edit

On Colonies

This is a commentary on Steve Petrick's excellent SFT40article 'The Evolution of a Colony'.

A young colony is an Orion Pirate's best friend. You have whatthey want, they have what you want.

Let's deal with a typical situation - an Independant, poorlyarmed Light Raider, leasing operating territory off a cartel, anda newly-established colony, not even protected by a handful ofDefSats.

The colony has nothing material that the pirate wants, exceptmaybe for some warm bodies to kidnap. The colony has a longlist of wants, with security at the top of the list, and adminshuttles soon afterwards.

Now, our gallant independant Pirate has two choices - he canthreaten the planet, and get the little they have, or he canmake friends with them. The profit from the first option is low,but if the colony is the Pirate's friend, then the potential profit(or, more accurately, the potential avoidance of catastrophicloss) is great.

If the colony owes enough favours to the pirate, then it is quitepossible that they will deny ever seeing a fleeting pirate -especially not one that is currently hiding out in one of the

world's oceans. Of course, any colony-installed DefSats willagree that the event never happened.

The first obvious favour is security - protection not from thatpirate, but from others. Obviously, if a Light Raider doesapproach the planet with ill intent, a flat statement that "Wehave a relationship with Remy Martin of the Golden Seagull.He will not be happy if we report an attack to him" will adjustthe profit-loss equation for that raider. This will be less effectiveagainst raids from organised navies - but if the friendly pirate isnearby, then a raiding F5 may get a nasty shock.

The second favour is that the colony world needs things likeAdmin Shuttles, which pirates tend to collect when freightersare captured. Note that the pirate could pick up the existing,maintainence-challenged admin shuttle each trip, and replaceit with a maintained one.

The third favour is professional training and provision ofequipment for militia units, in case worst comes to worst.

The fourth favour is cheap transport for small packages ofimports and exports - a Light Raider has three cargo boxesafter all, and a struggling colony may prefer stolen equipmentto nothing at all (especially if the equipment was stolen offanother State).

As well as a safe bolt-hole, the Pirate would have somewherecrews can have R+R, a possible source of recruits, and a safemarket for at least some goods.

Finally, the pirate has somewhere they can safely retire to atthe end of their career - something greatly preferable to thelong trip to the WYN cluster or the Lyran Democratic Republic.

Ian Whitchurch

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday,September 12, 2002 - 02:22 am: Edit

Ummmm...just one note...watch out for from and off.

By James Cain (Jcain) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 -02:19 pm: Edit

Ian Whitchurch:

What you said is even more true of the OFT and SLV classships. They are often smugglers first and foremost and piratesonly second (when a target that they can handle presentsitself).

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Tuesday, September17, 2002 - 06:03 pm: Edit

James

The issue of smugging is an intersting one. In the "Golden Ageof Piracy" in the Carribbean, smuggling existed because of thestrong export and import control policies of the SpanishEmpire. This does not generally fit my image of the Federation,although corporate clonies may be an exception - but I dontthink most colonies will have enough "off the books" trade tosupport the amount of cargo a Slaver or even a Free Traitorcan carry.

But Piracy as such being a sideline for many Orions is a goodpoint to consider.

Ian

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 -06:10 pm: Edit

Yeah, but who wants to play "the Orion Smugglers?" Piratessounds sooooo much cooler!

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Tuesday, September17, 2002 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Thinking about it, colony worlds supporting pirates who onlyraid neighbouring empires could be a good source of frictionbetween the Feds and their neighbours.

I'm thinking Feds, because Fed worlds seem to have moreautonomy than others.

I wonder what rights of "hot pursuit" the Federation allows, say,the Kzintis, especially when the Kzintis start alleging that Orionpirates raiding the Patriachy are in effect based on Federationworlds.

Actually, there is a scenario in there ... a small colony worldwith half a dozen DefSats and a small fighter base and a LightRaider up against a pair of Kzinti frigates.

Ian Whitchurch

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Wednesday, September18, 2002 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Very interesting. I have to agree that i dont think the piratesdepend primarily on piracy for their income. Smuggling can beso much more lucrative. Mercenary opperations can also paywell. Piracy is something for when the opportunity arises.

You also make a good point. EVERY orion must have somesort of bolt hole where it can hide, repair damage, take R&R, orstore stuff thats too hot to handle.

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Wednesday, September18, 2002 - 11:44 pm: Edit

Ok. here is a question to try get some discussion going. checkthe Battle forces proposal first. then think about this. As thebase commander, what would you do to defend the base?

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Thursday, September19, 2002 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Cloak the crap out of the base, run the minefield in a band 5-1000 km from the base (110-160 000 km when fighting Feds),and concentrate the defenders on killing on size 4 unit.

Unless the attackers get close, they will be unable to damagethe base (note : they will probably use t-bombs against thecloaked base until a shield is dropped ; at that point, the baseis dead).

I would keep the defenders at long range, away form the base,sallying only once they stop to deal with the minefield.

As the defenders, I would take as close to a psuedo-Hydranforce as I could, avoiding seeking weapons unless thedefender is weak in them.

===============================================

HYDRAN TACTICS=====by michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) Thursday,January 24, 2002 - 7:05 pmK.E.M.:

I left the motion bit deliberately vague because there are twoopions.Lets say the enemy is moving away at a speed of 21 and I plota speed of 28/14.1) I run up to the enemy, fire the usual exchange, tractor theenemy vessel and then use ED to stop. which would mean thatthe enemy vessel drags me along at speed 11, which is slowenough for the fighters to get back in ranto range.2) I could run up to the enemy, fire the usual exchange, tractorthe enemy and then slowly turn until I was traveling in theopposite direction to the enemy.If I travel in the opposite direction to the enemy for the lasteighth impulse period, I and the enemy will have a net speed of4 (3.5) away from my fighters, whilst they rush in at maxspeed.Also D22 can alter the speed of the enemy when fighters areracing in.L.R.:Always does make for dead, I just meant it was the superioroption.FIGHTERS AT RANGE TENThis is a fussion fighter tactic. The damage of an R10 fussionshot is identical to an R3 fussion shot, the difference being howquickly the charage gets used.Stinger Fs are just as easily employed with R15 fire as they arewith R10 although R8 is a different matter.Stinger Hs need to get to R8.If one wants to fire fighters at these sniping ranges, you canlead with the fighters as they fighters will have the protection ofbeing a long way from the enemy and their loaned ECM hasn'tbeen killed by D22.=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 9:44 pmr.15 mass gatling shots...well I admit I doubt I would havethought of that. []Kerry, we usually play in teams dividing the players presentinto 2. As I said before, lately we we are trying to come with afew possible fleets and then divide into the teams to play them.So there are no set races we would say except those we wantto play as a group.=====by michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) Friday, January25, 2002 - 2:36 amEffectively 36 ph-3 shots!From 9 stinger Fs ( or IIs or Hs ), expect 6 points of damage.Perhaps not enough to bring down a sheild but against adowned sheild, you'ld expect it to kill a phaser of the attackedship.At that particularly extreme range, it should be done over andover and over again without much penalty to the fighters.=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Friday, January 25,2002 - 10:42 amNomad,Do you play with ECM?I'm not sure how at Range 30 you can even PRETEND to hitmy fighters. (4 from Erratic or small target, 4 from the EW bird,a few from the carrier. a few from aditional EW pods I'd slingon them... and YES, against Fed I would sling extra EW for jsutthe effect you stated)St-H does NOT need to make range 8. In fact, if I'm fireing aR10 shot, I'm going to do everything in my power to avoid theR8 phaser break. I'll take the 5 points on a 7 or less and reloadmy St-H. If you send a St-H to range 8 on the first pass, it won'tcome back. (Unless your enemy is an idiot)In fact the St-Hs should be a few hexes behind the St-IIs.Because they only need to make R15, and you'd hate to losethem to starfish. Also, only fire 1 St-H an impulse. over 5-6impulses that C-8K suddenly has all its engines, but noweapons.=====

by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 12:04pmK EW and you []Fighters EW with everything under the sun(lent, ST, EW,Passive fire control etc.) except offensive EW and terrainapplied max 10 ECMFeddie has 4-7 Ships that can have it. Not including SWACsIE GSC lending to 4 + 3 MRS. Avg of 30 photons. 15 shouldhit. If not packed then fighters are OK, normally though I willpack til r15 so 15 fighters get crippled. Phaser fire may be usedto augment.One of my opponents used a SC and just lent 1 to most shipswith the others having MRS support giving 4 unshifted(20photons) and a further 28 with one shifts. Avg was about 19hits.Of course my opponent was moving slow allow me to closeand attempt an overrun if I wished but he had drones to helplimit that possibility and he could go spd 18 the following turnnot allowing an overrun, but a decent shot into his rears.With EW, fighters get a little limited as there max is 10, butattaining that max is pretty easy to do.=====by Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) Friday, January 25, 2002 -12:07 pmLarry,you are way off on the fighter EW. Fighters can onlyrecieve loaned points from a single source and can only have 6ECM and 6 ECCM (exluding natural sources), that means atlong range you would have a total of 10 ECM and once the EWfighter dies, that will drop down unless your ships startthrowing power into loaning the fighters EW.=====by Chad Calder (Chad) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 12:58 pmKevin,Not quite, If at WS III and with their carrier each fighter cancarry 2 EW pods for no extra BPV cost. This gets them the 6ECM they will need. (of course they will move 2 hexes slower.)=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 1:09 pmTrue as fighters from most hydrans do not meet the EW fighterrequirement(8 fighters min?), Then the norm is to carry 2 podsand go max spd of 12(15-2 for EW pods-1 for possibleerratics), and then use boosters to go 24 or 25 if you feelcheesy(I normally do). Using unplotted spd changes to go spd26 for the bonus cheese. Then just closing. Works real gooduntil he starts popping you at range or the dreaded disr shotsat R15.Therefore to maximize it all packs are turned off by r15. Thedifference is you need to use the spd at higher ranges and justhave to take the hits.At least your ships aren't taking them. For campaigns someeven allow the 50% bpv for fighter rebirth so it is moreeconomical as well.=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Friday, January 25,2002 - 1:44 pmKevin,I'm not seeing how 10 ECM doesn't == a 2 shift. I'd love you tofire photons at FIGHTERS with a 1 to hit. Don't think you willpop the EW bird, cause you won't. (well you CAN, but it meansI'm going to be that much closer) The EW bird will be as farback as it can be. Once you fire my entire fleet will accelerateand you won't get to do that again.Nomad, GSC are odd beasts. Regular use of them in Fedfleets is grounds for a beating.SC? Are you for real? That thing is NOT going to providesupport and keep speed up. SC are great against Klinks. SCsturn off drones like no bodies business, but they are NOTgoing to provie the neccesary EW for a squadron.Feds are a TOUGH nut for the Hydrans to crack. EspeciallyFusion fleets.Geoff,

You will find the HB ships just don't overload very well. DGshave REAL issues. So trading STD HBs at R8 with overloadedDIS is a real losing proposition, and the average Coalition fleetcan chwew up a HB fleet fighter strike pretty good. This is agood case for LEADING the fighters in. The HB ships will chewup the fleet, and the fighters will blow up enough ships so youcan survive to reload..... unless of course he is a Lyran, thenyou just killed yourself. You have to abuse Lyrans for puttingup the ESGs.I like T-bombs. T-bombs make you spread out. ESGs andspread out don't mix real well.=====by Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 2:02pmI don't like all perfect warships......but I do really like the Fedand Hydran DNLs and DWs and BCHs...............not perfect,but very much fun [] We haven't fought X since we wereplaytesting for it.=====by Alex Chobot (Alendrel) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 2:11 pmFed DNL not perfect?? Ack! Speed 31 arming standards orholding overloads, or speed 24 will plenty of spare power.I flew it in one of Tom Gondolfi's FFA scenarios and crunchedthings muchly with. Of course, there's nothing like popping upbehind an empty Lord Bishop and laying a full 80 points ofphoton love (and some 8 or 10 ph-1s) on its #4.=====by Steve Petrick (Petrick) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 2:13 pmLarry Ramey:Ten ECM does not equal a two shift when it is countered. Itcan be countered by any ship generating ECCM and being lentsome ECCM. The basic fact is that no fighter can have morethan ten ECM except through "natural" sources, e.g.,intervening asteroids, firing ship has a poor crew, etc.The basic is that a fighter can have a maximum of 6 generatedECM (including its built in points) from all sources. On top ofthat, at long-range (twenty or more hexes range) it benefitsfrom a Small Target Modifier adding four more points of ECMto get that ten points. At less than twenty hexes range it canonly gain ten points by spending a point of movement to useErratic Maneuvers, otherwise its maximum ECM falls to onlyeight points. It remains at eight points until it reaches rangenine, at which point its has no benefit from the Small TargetModifier, but could still benefit from Erratic Maneuvers.Note that Erratic Maneuvers and the Small Target Modifier aremutually exclusive, a fighter can only benefit from one of themat any one time.=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Friday, January 25,2002 - 2:20 pm1) Name the Fed scout that can afford 5 EW for each ship inthe fleet.2) Name the Fed ships that can avoid getting overrun whileappling 6EW.I'll help: CX,DWX, GSC (maybe), DNL, DN (cause it has noweapons), NCL+ (maybe), errr, ummm.Joy, a CX fleet, with 10 NCL+ and a SCX is support.Yay. Fun.=====by Steve Petrick (Petrick) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 3:06 pmLarry Ramey:Define the parameters of the equation.What are the speeds necessary to avoid an overrun?What are the ranges at which this operation is to take place?What is the opposing Hydran force?You are hiding behind vaguness. If the object of the exercise isto pick off the Hydran EW fighters and have a 1/6th chance foreach fighter so targeted, then we should have the courtesy onyour part to define the circumstances rather than just issuevague proclamations that say in effect "I win so do not bothercoming to the game."

You are also hiding behind hyperbole in that no one that I amaware of has claimed that they could have a scout able to giveeach ship in the fleet ECCM.Is the speed needed say 21?Fed NCL+a has 24 warp, 4 AWR, and 4 Impulse. To operatethe ship takes 4 points leaving 28. To standard load fourphotons takes 8 points leaving 20. To have six ECCM takes sixpoints leaving 14. 14 points of power allows a speed of 21.If we back the Fed NCLs with an NSC+, it has 24 warp, 4 APR,and 4 Impulse. To operate the ship takes 4 points leaving 28.To lend three ships 4 points of ECCM takes 15 points (three forsensors plus 12 for the ECCM) leaving 13 points for a speed of19. The ship could maintain speed 21 for two turns by burningits batteries.At this point I have three NCL+as with a total of 6 narrowsalvoes of two standard photons each with a 1/6th chance of ahit.There are no "X" ships in this group. No DNs. No DNLs. Noteven a GSC. Not even an SCX.And of course my other option would be to have ships thatsimply generate two ECCM and narrow slavo three proximityphotons, each such narrow salvo having a 1/6th chance to hitand do 12 points of damage, so who needs a scout.Fed CA+a 30 Warp, 4 Impulse, two AWR. Four points to runthe ship leaves 32. Eight points for proximity photons leaves24. Two points for ECCM leaves 2 for speed 22. Or speed 18 ifI wanted to have six ECCM and have the NSC lend threeCA+as the ECCM in the previous example.And of course if I went with Narrow Salvoes of three proximityphotons with just two points of ECCM I do not need a scout atall.=====by Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 4:13pmI must be pretty slow. Without the EW fighter, you are relyingon EW pods (slowing the fighters) or EW from your ships(which have to maintain the same speed to keep within rangeto loan EW). At range 30, with a shift of two, a fleet ofdisruptors is going to make quick work of the EW fighter.As to firing at the Klingon ships, I don't know about the otherpeople on this board, but mine fly with ECM drones so thefighters will be firing with a shift of at least one. That makesrange fifteen shots worthless.Best way to handle Hydran fighters? A nice juicy retrograde.Pot shots with disruptors and a few t-bombs set for the 6th size6 target.=====by Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 4:17pmMassed Hydran fighters are nice but they only make the gamelonger (unless you are playing on a fixed map and the guy thatagrees to a fleet action against Hydrans on a fixed mapdeserves to lose).=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Friday, January 25,2002 - 4:36 pmSPP,I did say NCL+.I am NOT saying the Fed wins, I'm not saying I win, I'm saying,I don't see the R30 prox into my fighters as a winnable tactic.To be truthful, I'm not sure I'd deploy my fighters at R30 sinceyou will wander around and try to seperate us.Kevin,Then you are trapped at speed 20 and I don't NEED to launchfighters. Also, I'd use my built in ECCM to counter your drone.If fast drones are on the map, then I have boosterpacks. Thatis NOT a trade in your favor. I don't see the ECM game in theKlingon favor since they have to keep the range open.As for retrogades, great. Its a stalemate. I'll also be sure neverto play you again.As for floating maps, SFB pretty much breaks on them. I'll takea Hydran fleet on with a fixed map. No problem. In fact, I've

done it. 500 point squadron battle, Origins 1996 I beleive.(maybe 97) Now, that was 2 fixed maps. With 11 ship fleets I'dwant 4 fixed maps.Hydran fighters make the game longer? But you want to bringECM drones? Are you kidding me? Drones are the WORSTform of board clutter bar none. They rarely hit anything, thereare 80 times more of them than I have fighters, and youALWAYS try to spread them out.=====

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 -10:59 am: Edit

REPOST OF PREVIOUS=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 4:43 pmDoesn't anyone use MRS's?Larry here you go.Fed fleet:DNG,BCH(6 photons),CCH, 8 NCL's, NSCNSC lends 4 eccm to 4 NCLs=20 points leaving 8 formovement probable speed of 9.Top 3 ships have MRS's doing a 2/4 lend.At R30 32 photons with no shifts and 50 p1's(?)Of course the fleet speed will ba around 9 or so, but the other 4NCL's will be loading OL's moving spd 12 and getting out lotsaecm drones for their run in on turn 2.I would plan on the 4 coming in with 10 or so on T), so fighterfusions have a 2 shift and do lesser damage.This means on T1 fighter losses can be extreme, and turn 2the feds will mostly flee with their sacrifices doing damage.Most likely 2 of the "sacrifices" will survive. But then turn 2 isanother matter depending on how many scatters make it outetc.You don't have to support every ship just a majority. If startingat R30 or greater(we normally do ours at R38 or so) the actualfire doesn't occur til about imp 10 or so. If fighters kill the packsthey will end at R22. If they keep them this is down to 14. Ifthey have the packs the lent cruisers will punsh the fighterswell.They may not be able to get reloaded in time but it will be realclose.=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Friday, January 25,2002 - 4:52 pmNow I'm convinced that your math is bad.Most likely 2 of the "sacrifices" will survive.At what range do you believe you can bring 4 ships to an 11ship fleet and have ANY of them survive? R8 (predicated byoverloads) Thanks for playing. There average Heavy phaserfirepower of even the lowly Hydran fleet will core 2 ships, theHeavy weapons will core the others. I'll probably have ph-1sleft over.While I am running your "sacrifices" over. (Thanks, I'll trade 30fighters for 4 CWs any day of the week) You are trying to gospeed 19. I am doing 30. so I make up 11 hexes. We are now,a farthest 19 hexes awway, my #1 on your #4. Next turn yougo 29, I go 31, we are now 17. How do you plan on turningaround? If you stop, I will shear off and surround you and comein armed for bear. You may or may not have had to leave thethe MRS behind.Note: we have drifted FAR afield from Geoff's original question.SQUADRON tactics for NON-UBER Squadrons.Look guys, there are REALLY good Fed tactics for beating upon the Hydrans. I know. I've used em, I've been on thereceiving end. NONE of it addresses Geoff's question. Howcommon is Fed/Hydran anyway?=====by Steve Petrick (Petrick) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 5:29 pmWell, the key thing about trying to pick off the EW fighters atrange is that you are GUESSING.

No Hydran worth his salt would (in my opinion) play without theTac Intel Rules, which would require the enemy to get LEVELK information to identify the EW Fighter from among the otherfighters. Except that the Poor Hydrans (and the Tholians andISC) have their EW fighters picked out at Level H (the penatlyfor having a specific EW fighter). That means you cannot tell itit is an Stinger-E until it is within 12 hexes range of your ship(assuming no EW shift).So picking the EWF off at "long range" before you aredecisively engaged with the rest of the Hydran force seems alittle far fetched. You would have to be lucky to pick the rightfighter and then roll the hit.Kerry E. Mullan:Most people do not use the MRS because it is SLOW, andallowing it to support your ship (or a fighter squadron) slowsthose units down.I would usually carry one (and would carry three in a fleetbattle) because I find them useful as "drone control platforms"allowing my ships to go erratic or what have you at need. Butthat generally means I try to operate my MRS shuttles 31 ormore hexes from their targets (seldom succeeded in that oncethe bad guys figured out I was using them to control drones).They are also sometimes useful for a surprise largescatterpack release because of their launch rails, provide extrareload drones for my drone racks (when I am a Klingon, Fed,Kzinti, or WYN), or provide that extra plasma-D launch when Iam a Romulan, Gorn, or ISC.And, rarely, they make that final decisive attack. I have on acouple of occasions had an MRS that I launched as dronecontrol platform advance on the "shattered wrecks engaged intheir final knifefight" and finish off the opponent with a drone,and on one occasion had one survive in the shuttle bay untillate in the game before sallying forth to finish my opponent off.But usually, they are just too darn slow.=====by Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 6:40pmActually, the source of lent points is known at all times(D17.194)=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Friday, January 25, 2002 - 7:27 pmBut Keven an ewf needn't lend right away either...Anyways, this all makes for interesting reading to say the least.All this smacktalk about who would do what with what isexaclty why I want full SFBOL. We could easily take it to the'simulators' then. []Larry, you seem to say that hellbore fleets won't survive r8exchanges. Do you advocate r15 exchanges then? With orwithout p1s?=====by michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) Friday, January25, 2002 - 9:00 pmS.P.P.:Was that MRS SP?1) 3 Type IV, 2 VI and a type I.2) 8 Type I.3) 2 Type IV, 4 VI and a 2 type I.K. M. McC.:Like drones, hydran fighters can either, win the game in a hurryfor you or make the game a long battle for the other guy.The old Kzinti tactic is to launch speed 20 drones, run at atspeed 24 for a while and get to R1, then exchange disruptors,Ph-1s and Ph-3s ( though you may want to fire 4 Ph-1s and 1Disruptor on the way in ) and then leave.Sure enough those drones, come along, and with no batterypower for Tactors and all the remaining phasers fired, theenemy ship gets splattered!Now consider a Hydran. She comes in at speed 20 ( or more )because her fighters are going at speed 15, dishes up herfussions, ph-2s and ph-gs at range, 1 ( firing some ar R3incase the enemy fires early ) and then the fighters come into

range ( possibly because the hydran slapped on a tractor ) andmove on down to range 1.They each dish up 14.66 points of damage per Ph-g plusfussion or hellbore damage.Consequently hydran fighters do not simply make the gamelonger.As to Fixed maps.Ever seen a base assault on a floating map?=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Saturday, January26, 2002 - 10:47 pmGeoff,I'm not sure I ever said that a hellbore fleet won't survive a R8exchange. I did say, if I'm doing the R10 strike with Stingers Iam NOT going to push the St-H to range 8, where they will die.(If you don't kill St-H every chance you get, you are dumb.)Once you volley the fusions at R10, the overrun threat goesdown DRAMATICALLY. Most klingon fleets can fire enoughdrones to tie up the Hydrans gatlings and Lyrans can Sytheenough out of the sky that they can survive the ones that makeit to point blank with the Gatling. If they have gatlings ANDfusions, you just can't do it.There are problems in that the bonus of the hellbore is that itALWAYS finds the down shield. Bt once the fleet size hits 5 or6 there is now such thing as a "Down" Shield. There are jsutthese things that sort of slow down the fleets firepower. TheDragoon+ has 5 shields it can fire hellbores out of. Whilefighting a D7L (about equal BVP with drones and fighters) it outto have 1 down shield, a handful of internals and 3 shileds thatare all shot up. The D7L should have no weapons.With a fleet, the Klinks pick a ship and go, "You, take internalsnow". The difference between R15 and R8 is that you takemore. All said and done though, I think I want to push theengagement close, becuase what is going to win it for me isthe stingers cleaning up cripples. There aren't cripples at R15,there are hurt ships that disengage.The hellbore is NOT a great fleet weapon. The bonus however,it is (outside of the gatling) the BEST weapon ever put on afighter. I'm not sure WHY St-Hs are only 10 points, but I'll take'em.(As a side note, THAT is what I feel is the winning tactic for thefeds. Screw the Fighters, volley some 44 prox photons into thePaladin's #1 at R30. You won't kill it, but it won't have a #1anymore)MRS:I deploy it on the "turn of annahialation". Generaly you spendyouself trying to get into a good enough position to acceptcombat. If not, then you leave because you are on the losingend. If you decide it is good enough, there is that one turnwhere you are going to make a close pass. Fleets only tend todo this once. There is usually a CLEAR winner after that onepass.=====by Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) Sunday, January 27, 2002 -10:42 pmSee, what is really awesome is the Fed/Hydran mixedfleet.........."ooooooo, ahhhhhhh"=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 2:21 amOh I dunno Larry...88 points of proximity damage ought to domore than merely take away the Pal's #1. []Thanks for the insights! Now I'm hankering for a real fleetgame again...=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Monday, January 28,2002 - 9:15 amGeoff,Don't think that the Paladin won't have 12 ECM on it!=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 3:01 pm

That's when you switch targets and take out the Pegasusinstead, or whatever other key ship that isnt protected by ascout at the time.=====by Stefan Pauly (Ennox) Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 10:14amExcuse me for interrupting your discussion about fleet-battlesbut I'm rather new to SFB and currently playing a tournamentwith some of my friends (Pradeep Atwal, one of them, is activein this forum (Roms) as well.We use the tournament rules and ships, everyone had toselect a ship and stick with it until the end of the tournament.I'm flying the Hydran TLM, Pradeep the Rom KR, one the GornTCC and the last one the Lyran TCC.I'll have to battle them all, already defeated the Gorn.What I need are some general tactics (I'm the first one out ofmy 4-player-group that ever tried the Hydrans) and perhapssome specific tactics against these 3 races.I'm from Germany, so here are no local players I could ask butour Rom said that the Rom-Tac-Board was really kind andhelpful so I thought I'd give it a shot []=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 10:32amFor lyran corner dodge turn 1 and then chase hin turn 2,overrunning on 3. Or in other words turn 1 plot mv 16 loadingstd fusions(2-4 I would recomend 2) with some reinforcementon #6. 2 Suicides loaded no weasels. DO NOT launch fightersT1.T2 do a spd 14 til 7(to get turned to f) and then to spd 27 til 25back down to 14. Allows for good spd and turnability andallows for you to maintain spd at the EOT. Again std load hellsand a few points on the #1(I think you have like 2-4 avail).Launch fighters if he looks to come in, or later on imp 17 or so.T3 He should be cornered so a fast/slow plot is best.Something like 27 til 11 20 til 19 then 14 til 32. OL Hells if youlike(I normally don't) and overrun him letting the fusions do thework. Obviosly once the ESG's become active hit em with theHells at the most opportune moment. Probably a good idea tohave a point or two of trac allocated.RKR do you know if he ballets or not. If he ballets then use thefighters to help kill torps. Do a spd 14/20 plot and justmanuever to take torps at range breaks(range 11, 16 not anyfurther than that), most likely using 2 to tractor your fighters.Fire ship fusions as often as possible saving the fighters.Wait til he gets low on torps and then overrun when he cloaks.Subhunt with the fighters especially and wait til he comes outto finish the job. Remember while subhunting keep speed inthe 12-14 range to allow for running later.If he doesn't ballet you have to either outguess him or take your4 shot and try to run out any launched plasma. A lot willdepend on how he plays it.=====by Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) Thursday, January 31, 2002 -12:59 pmnote on kerry's movement suggestion: he assumes you start in2530A. The ESG-vs-Hellbore interactions are interesting, besure to know the rules. For the Rom, know the rules aboutClose Combat Manouvering for your fighters, when theyinevitably get to r0 when he's cloaked. Unless of coursethey've eaten a shotgun or something. [] I can't help muchnever having played the Hyd myself... But yes, people here arehelpful. If you need help with our jargon (ballet, subhunting),just ask. Another good place to ask is the Tournament Tacticsdiscussion.=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Thursday, January31, 2002 - 1:10 pmStephan,You'll get a better response if you post that in the tournamenttactics area.=====

By Jon Lea (Mediator) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:07am: Edit

Afternoon one and all.

I've just started playing SFB after owning the Captain's Edition,Advanced Missions and module C-1 for a while. I'll bebeginning with the Hydrans since they're my favourite race inStar Fleet Command (on which I wrote the FAQ currentlyposted at Gamefaqs, using much information from SFB sites).

Can anyone suggest which other books/modules I ought to buyand in what order?

Cheers

Jon

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 -10:16 am: Edit

I would recommend you don't buy anything, but you do get asubscription to SFBOL and play there. Who needs rulesanyway?

By Robert Cole (Zathras6) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 -10:20 am: Edit

Jon: Don't listen to Tim, he's crazy... (except for the part aboutSFBOL...)

As for other rules - You've got the basics set. There aren'tagreat many other rules you would need to play a good ol'pickup game.

Now, if you're going to be playing Tournament style, thenT2000 and TR would be good to look into.

If you're going to be playing 'free-form' then the only modulethat might hold good interest right now would be J (and theupcoming J2)... more fighter rules are good for the Hydrans.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 11:51am: Edit

I'd get C2 first and C3 next to round out the core races. Then J,K, X1. Then R2, R3, R4, R6, R5, M, R7, R1, J2 in that order.

T2000 and TR are handy if you intend to tourney but I wouldn'tbother with them if you aren't a tourney player until you havethe above.

By Jon Lea (Mediator) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 12:07pm: Edit

Thanks for the suggestions. SFBOL ... I'll take a look at it. Isthat how most games are played now?

Has anyone played Module Y much? I was looking at thedescription on the ADB site and the idea of separate vesselsfor Humans, Vulcans, Andorians etc sounds pretty good. PlusI've been watching Enterprise ...


Some people play SFBOL, but alot of us still play with paperand map. SFBOL costs too much for some of us.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 12:24pm: Edit

SFBOL is a great way to play if you don't have a lot of folks toplay with, or if you like to mix it up with some of the best in thegame (I'm not one of those, but I play there anyway). Atpresent, SFBOL is mainly Tourney ship only, but there is a"custom ship" feature that allows duels between any ship twoships in SFB. A new version is in the works that will allowmultipule ships on a side. I highly recommend it. There is afree demo if you want to check it out before you pay thesubscription. I was initially reluctant to pay for the subscription,but I've found it well worth the price. If your going to play withthe tourney ships on SFBOL, I recommend module T2000 andeither Module TR (all the rules need for tourney ships beyondthe Basic set) or module C2, which would give you the rest ofthe rules you need as well.

Module Y is great. Many of the more advanced rules usedduring the GW are absent. Makes for some fast moving gameswith different tactics than the later stuff. The three rule booksyou have is enough to use pretty much everything in Module Y.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Thursday, March 21,2002 - 12:33 pm: Edit

If all you want is the rules to play most ships, you can get bywith Basic Set and TR. They'll let you play with about 90% ofthe most commonly used rules in the game.

However, buying through the entire product line is a good wayto keep ADB in business.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 02:15pm: Edit

Buying the core modules is also a good way to get all the rulesand all the ships for Alpha. Which is kinda 95% of the game.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 -05:03 pm: Edit

How on earth can anyone afford the rules and not affordSFBOL?

By Robert Cole (Zathras6) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 -05:06 pm: Edit

If I eat beans and drink water for a month I can buy J2.

If I eat beans and drink water for a month I can buy asubscription to SFBOL... but I can't afford to be online...


You're online right now....


I'm now a poor college student triyng to pay rent, bills, clothes,eat, and drive my car. When I bought the rules I was a highschooler with a job with nothing to spend money on except gasfor my car and games.


Then get inventive!

Get the demo version downloaded and installed, go online andplay demo games. Uninstall when you are done and put anysavegame files on disk.

And its all free.


Unfortunately, internet access was not on my previouslymentioned list of things to pay for. I use computers at schooland work, which do not allow anything to be installed ontothem. I have 10 hours free a month and after that it's cut offuntil the next month. Not worth it, in my opinion, to pay $40 for120 hours worth of gaming. Same for the free demo.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:36 am:Edit

Get a home puter for a buckaday.

At least thats what the commercials say.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Monday, March 25, 2002 -07:56 am: Edit

What does the Hyran fear from the Lyran most in the HyranTLM vs. Lyran TCC match-up and why?

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Monday, March 25, 2002 -08:30 am: Edit

Taking a R1 centerlined alpha on his #4 shield after getting hitwith R1 ESGs and then being put in a tractor with fighters onboard. EWWWW.Why? Lotsa damage and the gats die after a single p1. Also80+ Internals will make it so the HLM can never get out of thetrac again or come back either.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Monday, March 25, 2002 -03:29 pm: Edit

The Hydran dislikes this match because the Lyran has betterP1s and the ESGs pretty much neutralize the HBs. Thatmeans that the Hydran must get close enough for FutileBeams and gats to win, and must do it quickly before the Lyranrobs him of too many weapons.

By Jon Lea (Mediator) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 06:50 am:Edit

Simple question.

I'm about to start my first PBEM game. While I think myunderstanding of the rules of SFB is pretty good, I have limitedexperience of actually PLAYING the game.

I'm very keen to play a Hydran ship, largely due to the fact thatI have enjoyed considerable success with them in SFC and liketheir background.

How realistic a proposition is this? Given my limitedexperience, is the addition of fighters simply going to makethings too complex for a first PBEM game? Am I going to haveto play the Flatheads?

TIA

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 -09:01 am: Edit

The fighters are a simple system to use. To use them well isanother thing. Just note then have many exceptions and youshould look at the appropriate sections.

Some things to note is use of Mid-turn speed changes(can doso unplotted once every 8 imps) this allows them to close for 2consecutive impulses.Note their firing delay(8 imps after launch they can fire), theirreload sequence(J section), their damage capacity at differentranges(4+ about 4 pts per fighter with alpha, r3 about 5 pts, r2about 22, r1 about 26, r0 about 35).Knowing its capabilities will help in determining your use. Alsonote it takes 7 pts to cripple them and they lose 90% of theirfirepower at that point.If you are comfortable using these rules(and you know them orcan look them up and integrate them into your battle plan),then by all means hit em with the methane!

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 -11:17 am: Edit

I thought fighters could perform mid-turns every six impulses?Or is that nimble ships? Or x-ships?

aaarrrg... I'm so confused.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 -11:47 am: Edit

Correct, nimble ships and X-ships are every 6.Fighters are every 8, but they can be unplotted and can beboth decreases or increases. This allows a little more freedom.The problem is that it is easy to kill/cripple the fighters beforeR2(effective range), but that should make his Alpha againstyou poor(a good thing).

------------------------------------------------------------------------By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May07, 2002 - 10:53 pm: Edit

On the other hand, The fighters generate the same damagefrom their Gats from range 4 to Range 8 and the Fussionbeams generate the same Damage from R3 to R10.

R8 sniping can easily bring down a sheild or two withoutgetting mixed up with enemy; Phasers, T-bombs, ESGs andADDs.

Don't let anybody tell you that 9 Stinger-Fs need to get to R1 tobe effective, just keep pecking at the shields for a few points ofdamage every round, every fighter, and when the enemy can'tstop your wave, "bull rush" the fighters down to R1 or closerand BLAM, your biggest danger will be loosing the fighters inthe ship explosion.

There is a difference in that R3 Fussions can generate thesame damage as R10 shots but will cost half as many chargesto fire, don't let it bother you, the effects of ESGs and ADDs @R3 are not worth the power conservation.

Also If the enemy does go for cripples rather than completelydestroyed fighters, you won't need to repair all of the damagewhen the fighter lands on the shuttle bay deck, rather just thefirst point to cause the fighter to become un-crippled. If yourepair 2 points of damage per fighter instead of 8, your 4 pointsof CDR can repair 16 fighters per turn instead of merely 4, Butsince you need CDR for other purposses, you'll rarely be ableto spend all 4 CDR points on shuttle repairs.

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 -11:40 pm: Edit

While all the above are interesting points - if this is among thefirst times you've played the game I would advise you keepthings as simple as possible, with as few units as possible. Theless of the rule book you are worried about the better.

That doesn't mean you can't take Hydran - use one of thehellbore variants (Dragoon (C1), TarTar (R3) or Curasair (C1))or the Hunter (C1) (a frigate with fusions but no fighters). Letyour opponent know your experience too if you are choosingships so they don't take some awful complicated thing. Theidea here is to have fun - not be bamboozled because youropponent used something you were unfamiliar with. This isespecially so with PBEM - if it was face-to-face and and it's notfun you've lost an afternoon. In PBEM you've lost a couple ofmonths or more.

Regards, Cat.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Wednesday, May 08,2002 - 07:23 am: Edit

Forgive my tournament-only playing ignorance, but is whatMJC said about repairing fighters with CDR correct?

"If you repair 2 points of damage per fighter instead of 8, your 4points of CDR can repair 16 fighters per turn instead of merely4, But since you need CDR for other purposses, you'll rarely beable to spend all 4 CDR points on shuttle repairs."

Does repairing a fighter with CDR not count as one of the fourrepairs (for a typical cruiser) allowed under CDR? And can youCDR 16 different fighters in the same turn?

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 -08:39 am: Edit

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No. Each damage point on a shuttle costs oneCDR repair point to repair. Each shuttle repaired counts as asingle system against the CDR limit.


Thanks, Andrew. That seemed grossly imbalanced the otherway.

So if you repair a shuttle/fighter with CDR, regardless ofwhether it is one point or 8 over two turns, it counts as oneCDR repair?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 -09:59 am: Edit

I seem to recall that a point of repair used on a fighter countedas several boxes repaired...don't have the rule in front of methough.


Right, one point of CDR repair means a certain number ofboxes repaired on the fighter (be it one, two, etc, not sure). Myquestion should have been stated more clearly: Is it true thatno matter how many boxes you repair on the fighter it onlycounts as one "system" repaired under the per scenario limit ifthe repairs are continuous (i.e., you do not start a differentsystem and come back to the fighter)?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 -11:28 am: Edit

Yes, 1 fighter repaired (however many boxes it is) counts as 1CDR.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 -12:51 pm: Edit

I think MJC was including his deck crews in there as well.With 8 or so deck crews they can help repair crips to get themback online quicker. How he came up with 16 though is newsto me.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday,May 08, 2002 - 10:13 pm: Edit

How come...I didn't check the rules, is how come.

What I should have said was.

Don't take an 8 points of damage on a 10 point fighter andspend 2 CRD on bringing it back to completely undamagedstate when you can simply spend 1 CDR point to repair it buy 4and fly off the deck with an uncrippled fighter with 4 points ofdamage.

In that way, instead of fully repairing 2 fighters per turn, youcan repair 4 to UNCRIPPLED STATUS and thus boost yourtempory fire power.

And when it comes to Hydran fighters, tempory firepower isVERY important.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday,May 08, 2002 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Before entering into a PBEM, I'ld recommend spending anafternoon flying a Hydran D7H Anarchist.

Just to see what systems you like.

You might find fighter too fiddly.You might find fussion beams too short ranged.You might find hellbores too easy to offset or too mechanicallyclunky.

Or you might find you like them all.

But once you know, you'll be able to choose your BPM vesselmorwe carefully.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Thursday, May 09, 2002 -09:52 pm: Edit

Don't forget that once the figher repaired to non-crippled staus,you still have to reload the fusion (course, a gatling armedfighter that gets close...)!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday,May 09, 2002 - 10:00 pm: Edit

I'ld go so far as to use the Stinger-2s as expsendive stinger-Fsafter the first R10 fussion volley even if I did bring themonboard until such time as I wanted to "kill the woundedbeast", where in I bring in a few and give them standard onecharge per fussion beams and then put those rechargedfighters in the back of the pack so as to survive long enough toget into range 3 or less.

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Tuesday, December 10,2002 - 02:32 pm: Edit

I was wondering if anyone had played out in SFB terms thebattle that results from 1 battle line of F&E at a capital assault.

Lyran and Klingon mixed force against the best the Hydranshave to offer. A lot of the S8 restrictions go out the window in

this situation, cause you already know the Hydrans will bethrowing everything and the kitchen sink into the mess. Thesame applies to the klingons and lyrans.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 -03:35 pm: Edit

Sounds like a good PBEM scenario. Now to find themoderator...

By Kerry Drake (Kedrake) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 -03:47 pm: Edit

AAAAaaaaaaaarrgh!

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 -03:58 pm: Edit

Well it would go quicker than a Lyran+Klingon assault on theKzinti Capital, with over 150 fighters from the Planet and SBand 3 CVS's.

Aww, but they are ONLY speed 20 drones!

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Tuesday, December 10,2002 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Tos: You were searching for a FOG3 idea...

Terrain: Large Gas Giant

HYD: SB + 4 HBM, PAL, 4 LM, 6 RN, 2 DG, 20 PDU (1 Ph-IVGB, 1 Medium Fighter GB each), 1 MB

a piddling 228 St-II fighters...

vs

LYR/KLI: C8, 5 BCH, 3 CW, 3 D5, D6S (3 D6D on dronebombardment in support).

YEAH! Lets do it!

(At least there aren't many seeking weapons... )

Cat (Moderator - Fog of War PBEM).

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 -10:25 pm: Edit

Um, I count at least 228 seeking weapons, plus the DBdrones...


Why do the Klingons/Lyrans seem outgunned in that scenario?


Seriously: If you took a 'realistic' Hydran capital battle linesthere wouldn't be much point to playing the scenario. TheCoalition gets creamed (in FnE terms you cripple everything,destroy the war cruisers and hope they didn't quite do enoughfor you to have to destroy the rest of the battle line as well).The Coalition however has more reserves for the NEXTbattleline, and the NEXT and the NEXT and the NEXT.

A more interesting, though related idea, from an SFB point ofview would be an assault in the first turn of the Klingon-Lyraninvasion on one of the Hydran starbases or planets outside the

capital, or perhaps on one of the major or minor planets in thecapital hex outside the capital planet itself.

...or an even better way - take one of the online FnE gamesand see if any interesting scenario resulted. Given the wayFnE plays anything you might consider playing in SFB isn't amajor battle - but you could get some quite interestingscenarios that way.

Cat.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002- 10:33 pm: Edit

Because they are?

In F&E terms, that's 374 for the Hydrans and only 116 for theKlingon/Lyran. Or so.


Tos: The Coalition is outgunned because in FnE attackingfixed defenses works that way. The Hydrans get a full 14 shipfleet (using two command points plus the free scout) PLUS allthe fixed defenses of the capital planet (SB, MB, 40 oddground bases). The Coalition just gets 14 ships plus dronebombardment (only the drones come on the board). TheCoalition KNOWS they will get stomped so have to includesome cannon fodder to take damage on (the CW's and D5'sare there for that) [Note: in FnE the DEFENDER chooses whatto damage, not the attacker]. The coalition objective is todestroy the ground bases and devestate the capital planet(using directed damage - where the attacker chooses thetarget but it is inefficient) - the Hydran fleet usually goesuntouched, or only takes losses on fighters, which is why theHydrans can afford to include nearly all of their cruisers in thebattle line, they don't have to worry about losses.

Oh - replace one of the BCH's with a D6M mauler - that allowsthe coalition to kill ground bases more easily in FnE...

Cat.

P.S. The Hydrans are probably a tad too large - they probablywon't have 20 PDU's on the capital - more like 16, andprobably won't have the command points to allow the use of 2.I did forget to add in an NSC in the scout slot so that is sixextra fighters though...

Unlike Frank I can't quite do FnE battlelines in my head. I knowa little FnE but my rank would be 'new novice'.

By Tom Carroll (Sandman) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 -11:08 pm: Edit

F&E is such a silly game. I got 200 ships but only allowed tosend in a handful at a time. Kind of the typical Kung Fu movievillian attack style. Lets surround the hero with 25 ninjas butonly atttack the hero one at a time.


I don't think S8 allows the NSC as the free scout as free scoutsuse a command point for their attrition units.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Wednesday, December 11,2002 - 01:47 am: Edit

S8? Who said we were obeying S8? The NSC is perfectly OKin an FnE battleline. S8 doesn't allow 5 Lyran BCH either.

I think that was some of the attraction of Razman's question -in a Hydran capital assault S8 goes out the window.

In fact if you take any FnE to SFB conversion S8 is irrelevant -FnE has given you the rules for what is in your fleet so S8 is nolonger needed to simulate 'standard fleet deployment'.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Wednesday, December 11, 2002- 01:10 pm: Edit

TOS, F&E2K allows the free hybrid scout to use fighterswithout counting against command slots. So, the Hydran NSCwould be allowed.OTOH, a Fed CVL is not a hybrid ship, so its fighters do count,as would any PFT.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, December 11, 2002- 01:31 pm: Edit

S8 does not apply to SFB battles which are generated by F&Ecampaigns. You already paid the price of putting all five BCHsin one battle.

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Monday, December 23,2002 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Rather than doing the first round of the capital assault, lets lookat a later round, at this point, lets assume that we are down tothe last 4 hydran pdu's. the coalition is down to their lastmauler. Hydrans still have the starbase and the mobile basehowever.

Usually when me and my friends do F&E maulers haveextremely short lifespans.

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Monday, December 23,2002 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Also lets limit the objectives for the coalition, kill pdu's or themobile base... their choice, better victory condidions for killingmore PDU's.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, December 23, 2002 -05:44 pm: Edit

How badly damaged is the SB? Has it taken any "SIDS"damage from F+E?

Or in other terms, has a Module or 3 been blow to pieces?

Because you are still talking about 12 P-4's on the SB, and aP-4 every other hexside of the Gas Giant, perhaps?

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 -06:51 pm: Edit

The first stage of SIDS would be breaching the minefield,cleaning out a couple of dozen weasels, emptying the droneracks, vapourising a couple of freighters and using up the T-bombs. Only after that's done are you likely to be doingsignificant internals.

Do F&E SBs have fighters included or are they just treated asCVs? Either way, once you get this far, the hangars will belooking pretty empty.

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Wednesday, December 25,2002 - 08:45 am: Edit

In FnE the SB's are treated as CV's with the fighters added onseparately. The way a capital assault works (the coalition istrying to kill PDU's), there are usually a lot of homeless fightersaround that go to the SB. It is unlikely to be out of fighters. Onealso has to remember that the whole Hydran fleet is sittingaround watching the battle take place - CAV, UH, LAV andSAV are feeding fighters forward to the frontline combat ships.The only real way to reduce the fighters for the coalition is toblow up the PDU's which base them (so they can't appear inthe battle).

Razman's idea is a good one however - pick a later part of thebattle where the forces are more even. They are still likely tobe undamaged ships (due to the replacements available in thebattle hex) but reducing the PDU's allows the coalition to field abigger force (they are less likely to lose the big ships) and wecould 'hand wave' away some of the Hydran cruisers ascasualties of previous skirmishes.

Whether the SB has SIDS or not is more a function of coalitionstrategic planning than anything - are they concentrating on thePDU's still or on taking the starbase down? In FnE the twoaims are almost mutually exclusive until very late in the battlewhen the PDU's are probably gone anyway.

Any thoughts on a late battle round force makeup for a Hydrancapital assault?

Probably worth deleting all PDU's and the MB - give thecoalition the choice of devestating the planet or killing thestarbase. Perhaps I'll run a simulation over the Holidays...

Cat.

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Friday, December 27,2002 - 10:28 pm: Edit

the reason i suggested doing it with 4 pdu's and the mobilebase is because often what happens is that the attackingcoalition is going to try destroy the pdu's and mobile base toprevent them from being upgraded. that way next turn they cancome in next turn and ONLY have to deal with the star base.

===============================================

ANDROMEDAN TACTICS=====By Geoff Conn (Talonz) Friday, February 22, 2002 - 4:04 pmDepending on year, i would lean toward drone cruisers. if youcan get unlimited speed 32 drones, you will kill him nicely with2-3 drone cruisers.Assuming S8 is in play, this is impossible.=====By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) Friday, February 22, 2002 - 4:16 pmIf you are going DX+D6D, I would skip the scout. The D6D willproably be enough EW support with 3 ships max. You needmore direct firepower.=====By Mike Raper (Raperm) Friday, February 22, 2002 - 4:16 pmPart of the scenario is to fight a defensive battle. I'm protectinga planet...he's supposed to drive me off or destroy me. So, I'mgoing to let him come to me if I can, working over the sat shipsfirst, if he has them. I won't have time to really lay many mines,though I'll drop what I can. I don't have any defsats, either.How can I counter the Dis Dev? That seems to be the biggestissue to me.=====By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Friday, February 22, 2002 -4:30 pmMike,How about a few F-5G's?

No seriously this is not a game you should have much troublewith. If he prefers multiple ships, he will probably run anIntruder or Varient. witha couple of medium size scout ships.If you run D-5's then run 3 of them (or variants of them such asD-5K/D-5DK/D-5L) Don't pick just 1 and a couple of other shiptypes. 3 D-5 hulls will optimize each other.Avoid putting all your eggs in one basket. Stay away from theB-10/C-8 thing as he will have you VERY out maneuvered hereand a couple of good stikes through the same shield can leaveyou limping and toothless.Avoid too many little killers. An all E/F series force will likey getpicked off faster than they can wittle an Andy down. HoweverPF's may well be quite a viable option. (And Dont forget thatyou can add two Mech links and two PF's to anyship With theMechlink refit).Cruisers are where its at here and the klingon cruisers areexcellent Andy hunters. (provided you pick and play them well)Drones are definatly the way to go but as stated by some ofthe other posters here, Dont go all drones. Maximize yourDrones as well as Disruptors. With 400 BPV, you will not likelybe able to make Phasers count anyway so the D-7YK or D-7DK would be a good choice. Although the D-7DK might bebetter as you have two more shuttles to work with.Ironicaly you May want to consider the rare combo of a D-5Hwith P-D4 drone bombardment pods (or T-7K with the samepods This will also maximize your Disruptors and Drones Andgive you Sensors to boot (albeit at a manuever loss).Keep in mind that if He displaces your ships their is a chanceECM will disrupt his attempts so Special sensors are a plus(and will reduce the efectiveness of TR's).Dont think that ADD racks are usless against him. You canalways load them with Type-6 Drones for confusing hisdefenses and Shatterpacks. (remember the Type-6er's only go12 hexes max though). And dont forget to pay for them.If it were me I'd go with either the 3 D-5 thing or 1 D-7Y, 1 D-7D, and a D-6DYou might toy with the Idea of a D-5A But avoid the D-7A as itis too power hungryEither way you go make absolutly sure to keep up your speed.Make carful use of your Scatterpacks. Use careful Droneselection (armored drones are a must here). Remember thatFast drones are the best but are pricy (you dont have to makethem all fast). Keep your speed up at all times Use MidTurnSpeed Changes to Improve manuever rate at intervals.Dont Get discouraged as you begin to take Heavy Damage.YOU WILL and it's unavoidable, just remember that once thosepanals fall that the Andies go up like a dry tinderbox (but not tillthe pannels fall). Have patience and keep going till that magicmoment.And as Jim said,quote:Don't fire all disruptors at once unless you will do internals.Assuming r15, you can maximise degradation by firing themsingly (15 damage in 5 shots causes 5 degradation; 15 in 1shot causes 3).Know (D10.332). Disruptors get special leakage.=====By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Friday, February 22, 2002 -4:35 pmWell Now that I see there is a planet involved,Leave!!!!!!!!Take the fight to him on the appoach battle.If he gets to the planet he can use the it to break Drone locksand whats MUCH WORSE is his ability to get an instant kill ona ship if he succeeds in displacing you there.As for countering the DISDEV, See my previous post and thebit about ECM and Displacement.Rus=====By Mike Raper (Raperm) Friday, February 22, 2002 - 5:30 pmRus,

Wow...that's alot to take in. I think I may go with a mix, keepingenough BPV to buy some armored, fast drones. I'm alsothinking that mixing drones will keep him guessing, so I maymix 'em up a bit. A scout or unit with Special Sensors soundslike a must, too, so the D6D is starting to look real attractive asone of my picks.=====By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Friday, February 22, 2002 -5:42 pmYes the D-6D is a great ship but really, I would not pick a"Dedicated" scoutship ie. D-5S/D-6S etc. as they will not makemore of a difference than a D-6D which has more firepowerand will not blind its own sensor with the Racks.Also if you go with a D-X you might as well pick the D-XD itsonly a little bit more costly but the extra Drones will help and ismostly unchanged from the D-X. But you wont get many pointsleft over though.Sorry I gave you so much at once. I get carried away at times.Rus=====By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Friday, February 22, 2002 -5:47 pmPS. A weapons officer on that D-X hull may just be a god send=====By Mike Raper (Raperm) Friday, February 22, 2002 - 7:03 pmOoooh,Good call! Hadn't even considered crew yet. When I mentionedhaving a scout, I just meant something with special sensors.That's why I like the D6D so much. And don't sweat gettingcarried away...it shows you've got plenty of knowledge to goaround. Guess who I'm gonna be tapping from here on out?=====By the way, I have a ship I think you might like to look at on myweb page. It's a heavy drone destroyer. 3 drones and twosensors in place of the 2 disruptors and forward ph-1. Check itout...I'd like your input, Rus.http://www.geocities.com/raperm2002/Klingons.html=====By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) Friday, February 22, 2002 -7:28 pmHmm...Its actually a rather viable ship but I think the Drone in theBoom really should be in the rear hull though so as not todisrupt the continuity of Command boom designs though.And I am thinking that maybe it should have 4 Drones totalMaybe ditch the ADD and replace the PH-3's with B-Racks.Then I could actually see publication.With the changes (or similar) above I honestly think this shiphas merit but you might want to continue its discussion in aProposals thread (of coarse not till after they bring back theBoard with the V3 software).Remember that everything being said (as of about 3:00 pm)will probably not be archived and put back on the board in acouple of days when everythings back up and running.I honestly do like the ship though.I cant believe I never thought of it.RusBTW if you want these suggestions from the players you mightwant to copy & paste the messages to Word or something asthis thread will be regenerated but not the messagesherewithin.=====By Mike Raper (Raperm) Friday, February 22, 2002 - 8:55 pmRus,Thanks. You know, the original incarnation DID have fourdrones. Two on each engine, with the special sensors in placeof the drone in front. I thought, though, that that might be toomuch...it matches the drone power of the D6D. Also, I kind ofliked the one drone up front, to give the boom a bit morechance should it be seperated. Thanks for the input,though...it's most welcome, as always.=====

By David Kass (Dkass) Friday, February 22, 2002 - 9:05 pmUnless this is a small closed map, I'm surprised people aresuggesting drones. My experience is that Andros aren't tooconcerned about drones (they're fast, don't need to dropshields to lay T-bombs, have all the otherwise useless P2 andcan DISDEV if desperate). Especially not in the 400 BPVrange. They want to play an in and out game anyways (since400 BPV isn't enough to crush panels at range 15). And whilethe drones may disrupt their timing, the Andros aren't astiming/range dependent as others (since they have no overloadfunction).I'm not saying the fleet should avoid drones, but I don't thinkgoing heavy on drones is a good idea. Since all they're goingto do is force the Andro to maneuver, a dozen on the board isprobably adequate and any Klingon 400 BPV fleet should becapable of that with one SP. I can maybe see a D6D (but don'tforget the cost of its drone speed upgrades), but that is achunk to spend on a scout at 400 BPV (I find that if the scout is> 20% of the BPV, its abilities are wasted) and I'd be temptedto just rely on ECM and ship generated EW and get somemore disruptors. And if I really wanted some scout power, Imight consider a D6E. 12 disruptors (3 cruisers) shootingthrough a +1 shift is a better deal than 8 (2 cruisers) without ashift at the ranges you're going to be at (18 vs 16 at 9-15 and48 vs 40 OL/UIM at range 8, and it only gets better).A very different option would be to take a D5P and PF flotilla(G1Bs are best here). I think that'll fit in under 400 BPV (butwon't give any extra ships). It is one of the few cases where theprice for the scouts is perhaps acceptable (although even then,consider replacing the PFS with a standard PF if you cansqeeze in a F5B/K or larger ship). This force is lacking in longrange firepower, but should be fast enough to reachreasonable ranges to the Andros (especially since with theD5P's scout capabilities, it can force very difficult shots beyondrange 8, maybe 12). This has the advantage of seriouslymitigating the annoying effects of offensive disdev use.If you have your opponent's autorization to take X-ships, that isprobably the way to go (be sure you have the latest updatedrules). Pair a DX with a D5K, or maybe an FX. While this willhave fewer disruptors, the extra X-ship abilities make up for it.=====By Geoff Conn (Talonz) Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 2:43amUnless this is a small closed map, I'm surprised people aresuggesting drones.Fast speed. Put enough drones out and it can be a realproblem for Andros.=====

By Robert Cole (Zathras6) on Monday, February 25, 2002 -05:54 pm: Edit

2 playersYear ~ Y180

200 BPV

Andromedan EXPw/ 2 Tbombs 200

Federation BCFw/ all fast dronesw/ 3 TBombs 200

Turn 1:

Fed 20, Andro 21Both approach middle of the map, ending ~ range 15.

Turn 2:

Fed 20, Andro 28

Andro fires 3 in arc TRHs taking 20 off #2 of Fed. Displacesaway from Fed, causing 10 drones in flight (SP and 2 racklaunches) to HET.Fed does not fire, and drone make close range of Andro (whois low on BATTs.) Adnro moves into 3 drones on front panel,phasers down 5. Takes 2 drones on rear panels.Andro hits range 8 with the Fed in his rear, announces EM.Fed fires with 1 PHOT and 6(?) P-1s, no shift. Torp misses,phasers do 11 points of damage to rear panels.Next imp still range 8, Fed risks other 3 torps... total wiff.Rest of turn uneventful.

Turn 3:

Fed 13, Andro 24

Andro plays Stupid Panel Tricks (TM) while Fed arms Torpsand Phasers.End of turn, Andro near middle of map in direction D with Fedmoving toward center in direction B. Fed launches drones andSP late in the turn.

Turn 4:

Fed 26, Andro 24

Fed launches 2 more drones for total 10 drones in flight. Androturns off (only 1 armed TRH). [Mistake #1?] 1 Tbomb takes out4 drones (ignore 1st 2 target to get 2 stacks one hex apart).

Turn 5:

Fed 26, Andro 24

Andro has decent range on Fed, but drones are close. Forwardpanels are empty with minimal degradation due to damage.Rear Panels have 3 (or 4) points of power with about 15 pointsof degredation. A bad movement puts all 6 remaining droneson rear panels. [Mistake #2] Phasers kill 3, but Andro displacesdirection D (heading D) [Mistake #3] to avoid other 3.Fed HETs to put Andro in FA. Fed facing E, Andro in lower leftcorner. Seeing Fed will get overload, Andro attempts offensivedisplacement on Fed. Displacement successfull, but movesFed in direct D 3 hexes. [Mistake #4?]Andro turns har to get Fed into better arc and avoid range 4.Almost works. Fed makes range 5 when Andro turns indirection C with the Fed in LF arc. Movement same impulsewould move Andro out of FA, so Fed turns into Andro to makerange 4. Exchange of fire: Fed 4 torps, 8 P-1s. Andro 3 TRHs.1 shift to both parties. 2 of 4 torps miss, phasers do averagedamage. Fills forward panels to max, but no internals. TRHs do39 points, 9 in (Fed used batts to attain high speed and raiseEW). Internals on Fed catch minimal good stuff, leak point onAndro gets a just fired TRH.Next impulse Fed slips firing other 1 P-1 and 2 P-3s, doing asmall (7?) number of internals.Plasmas hit rear panels, doing another 15 internals or so.

Question: Were the [Mistakes] listed truly mistakes? Werethere any other Andro [Mistakes]?

(Good Game, Chris...)

42

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, February 25, 2002- 06:17 pm: Edit

Was a very good game. Truly, a wonderful way to see thewhiffmaster 2000 tageting sytem in action. Fire 8 Torps, 2hit........man oh man.

The only thing I think you did that was not great, was let mecontrol the center of the map for most of the game.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, February 25, 2002 -08:46 pm: Edit

Well, for those that were part of the discussion the other dayabout my impending battle, here's the results, and someobservations.

Result: I won. Not through any outstanding strategy on mypart, though I didn't do too badly...I won because FASTDRONES ROCK!!!

What'd I learn?

1: FEAR the TRH.2: Having a scout sensor equipped unit when the other guydoesn't is money in the bank.3: PA Panels are great...until they start to leak.4: Don't bet you can go nose to nose with an Intruder and getaway with it.5: Timing your drone strikes is a great way to maximize yourimpact. I hit the Terminator the guy had with 8 fast type 1's,launched from differnt positions on the board but timed to hitwithin one or two impulses. As it happens, six of my eighthit...and that was the name of that tune.

Thanks for all the great pointers, folks.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 -03:50 pm: Edit

Of course fast drones rock. I told you they would.

By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) on Wednesday, February27, 2002 - 02:50 am: Edit

Good to hear Mike

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Saturday, March 23,2002 - 01:10 am: Edit

#1 It is generally held (I think) that once the Andro starts to gethit, the enemy needs to keep at him and never let him get abreather. Run him down, fill his panels, and kill him.

#2 I generally try to play X ships as in-and-out ships. Go it, hit,come out, reload batts and caps. Fix some bits, come back in. Ifind that getting a breather in an X-ship helps me more thanthe non-X opponent.

So what about a X-ship Andro matchup? Take the Return ofthe Darwin scenario, for example. But ignore the special victoryconditions vis-a-vis the Darwin. Should the Fed X-ships try tostay in with the Andros (not necessarily toe-to-toe) turn afterturn, or should they play hit and run?

I'm thinking hit-and-run, but wanted to hear from others.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 12:45pm: Edit

How is the Andro firing at a shift? All it takes is power tochange EW to what you need. Usually there is no reason toallocate any power to EW, just use your bats.Also unless the photon/phaser fire in turn 2 was on impulse 32,stupid panel tricks could have started earlier.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Monday, March 25,2002 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Did I say something about a shift?

Huh?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 03:29pm: Edit

Question on how to use Energy Modules

OK, I got C2 last weekend, do you just beam the EnergyModule out at i32, have it dump the energy at EA, and thenbeam it back in i1?

Is it as easy as that?

By Nick Blank (Nickb) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 03:43 pm:Edit

No, Energy Modules dissipate at a certain rate, see rule(G20.33), 4 pts per panel. This takes about 2 turns (two end ofturn dissipation steps) to mostly clear a full module. Youcannot just "dump" the energy off all at once in EA, only by thedissipation method that happens at the end of each turn. Also,there is at least an 8 impulse delay on beaming it back aboard,see (G19.443) since EM uses the sat ship rules for deploymentand recovery.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 04:27pm: Edit

Still, you can beam it out i32, have it dump the 4pts per panel,then beam it back on i8. Still not too shabby.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Tuesday, March 26,2002 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Assuming you are stillwithin 5 hexes of it on I8. If things aregoing so bad that you popped out the Ener Mod, you may notbe.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:45pm: Edit

Well, how else do you have an Energy Module dump it'spanels if you don't get it out of the Hanger?

Of course I'm assuming you beam it away from the enemy sothey can't just overload it with some phasers and destroy it.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 -08:14 pm: Edit

Mauler with a hanger?Also, beaming it out into an atmosphere hex doubles thedissipation rate.At that rate, the i32-i8 idea would be worth it, even if it were notfull.

By Tony Zbaraschuk (Manyarrows) on Wednesday, March 27,2002 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Or, instead of i32-i8, you beam it out on impulse 25, and beamit back in again on impulse 1 -- less time for the enemy toreact, especially if they've already fired all, or some, of theirweapons.

===============================================

LYRAN TACTICSBy Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Monday, March 25, 2002 -07:45 am: Edit

I have a question, Lyran TCC vs Hyrdan TLM. I am playing theLyran. I wanted some basic tactical suggestions. While I haveflown Lyrans off and on for years, I have never really masteredthis fight and would like a few tips. As my opponent may readthis board (high probabilty), I will not be giving any info to myactual strategy until after he has seen it in the game.

Any help will be appreciated. Thank you. Follow-up post(s) willbe submitted.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 -12:31 am: Edit

Make sure both ESGs come up at the same time. Also good tohave them both come up turn 1. Remember ESGs are not anevery other turn weapon, they are 32 impulses after the fielddrops.I think that's a tough one for the Lyran. Maybe try to end turn atrange 8 or so with 3 OL disr, put a little power into on of theESGs. SSs.

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Wednesday, March 27,2002 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Jay: Actually, they are an every other turn weapon. They can'tbe reactivated until the next turn following the 32 impulse delayfrom collapse of the field. i.e. field collapses 2-15, field can't beactivated until 4-1 (not 3-15).

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002- 03:02 pm: Edit

Marc,I do not play with many of the ESG ships so I cannot besure(my books are at home), but I think you are wrong. Ibelieve the statement is that they cannot be activated until the2nd turn following after initialization of the ESG.In other words I activate it on 1.24(meaning I announce on1.20 and it becomes active on 1.24), on 2.15 it mows a scatter-pack and becomes deatcivated. On 3.15(32 imps fromdeactivation and the 2nd turn from activation) I can have itactive again(once again it could be announced on 3.11).


Kerry:

You just said what I said differently. Where do you find fault inmy statement?

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002- 05:52 pm: Edit

Marc,

Actually, they are an every other turn weapon. They can't bereactivated until the next turn following the 32 impulse delayfrom collapse of the field. i.e. field collapses 2-15, field can't beactivated until 4-1 (not 3-15).

Your point could be wrong. If the said ESG was "up" beforeturn 2 and then collapsed during turn 2.15 then on turn 3.15 itcould be raised again.It would not have to wait to be raised on 4.1.Now if you had a preface that the ESG was raised earlier turn2 your statement would be true, but as most raise them late inthe turn then there is that aspect to consider.


Kerry:

Good point. I stand corrected.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday,March 27, 2002 - 09:36 pm: Edit

I assume the Hydran had Hellbores!?!

That means you shouldn't have them raised at longer rangesor turns when you want to be defensive ( E.g. turns when yourmaking full ECM, though with Disruptors and Ph-1s you wontneed many defensive turns ) because the ESGs make thehellbores auto hits.

If you get close to him and he has hellbores ready, raise radiuszero ESGs to give you a maximised protection against hishellbore damage which are pretty close to an auto-hit already.But raise them well before he is ready to fire or else he'll pre-emptively fire ( with high hit probability ). Of 2 overloadedhellbores ar R1, two ESGs at R0 will stop 40 points of the 60points of damage, but with the ESGs unraised you'll take58.333 ( 35/36 x 60 ) so the ESGs work well to protect you.

Also remember against a Hdyran to keep your sheildsbalanced especially after damage.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:49pm: Edit

Actually if you're going to get that close better to have ESGsraised at 3 since 2 OL hellbores at 4 only does 44 damage-30ESG=14.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 -10:05 pm: Edit

Actually Jay that isn't totally correct.If you have them at r3 and the hydran is at r4 to your ship thehellbores impact as if they are at r1(because they are r1 toyour ESG) and the other 30 hits you!Keep them at R0 if using them as shields.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday,March 28, 2002 - 11:01 pm: Edit

But try not to use them as sheilds at anything other than closerange because of the auto-hit aspect.

Personnally with those disruptors and Ph-1s of the Lyran andwith the Gatlings and Ph-2s of the Hydran, you just shouldn'twant to get anywhere closer than R5 of the Hydran it'self ( R8being good unless he's overloaded his hellbores where R15 isbetter ), though using the ESGs as Anti-Fighter systems is verygood ( Get to R3 and the Stinger-II is out of range for the Gatto be good and the fussion die before they're good unless heblows both loads but it just can't take 15 point from the firstESG and 15 from the second...3 stinger-IIs go down that wayquite well )...just make sure the Hydran has launched hisHellbores BEFORE you raise the ESGs.


Our last big bpv game was lyran v hydran. 600 bpv

We (the cats) fired disrs at 15 as we closed to little effect, withew and reinf. Turn 2 we tried to cross the T but the hydransmoved too fast, so we turned in for a battlepass, putting 4 esgsup on the BC. We tried to clip range 3 and more or less did,sucking up hellbores with the esgs and then blowing up theirCM and all 14 fighers on the map.

Course then they turned over us and caught on of our CAspoint blank with a fusion cruiser, but we were still up the squdof ftrs and the CM over our lost CA.

So you can survive close range passes with hydrans, if it isnttoo close and you play it right.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Friday, March 29, 2002 -08:52 am: Edit

Well geoff did you kill the 14 fighters with an explosion or withindividual direct fire?

If it is with the explosion, then I rebuff your synapsis. You mightas well say Hydrans are pushovers...well as long as they don'tpower their shields mizia at R15 kills them all the time. Anyonelosing their entire fighter complement due to bad planning,does not prove that you are capable. The precurser should beif the opponent plays at near equal ability.I mean you might as well say a fed dies horribly all the time tohydrans. If he lets 2 stinger 2's reach range 0 and not firing atthem.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Friday, March 29,2002 - 09:04 am: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:If it is with the explosion, then I rebuff your synapsis------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, perhaps you rebuff his synopsis, but to rebuff his actualbrain functions . . .

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Friday, March 29, 2002 -11:09 am: Edit

Well actually I was meaning the way his individual nerve cellsfire to communicate his current stream of thought...ie the way his actual cells of the nerve endings leading to hisbrain were not giving the accurate amounts of Na, Ca, K, andother such chemicals. Due to this it skewed his thinkingslightly.Good catch Jonathan. I guess it just erks me when grievieouserrors by opponents are thought of a "tactic" that will alwayssucceed. That really gets me going.Here's another one:My opponent took his 12 Pfs to r0 on the BCH and then all 12were destroyed due to the explosion.Um is that a tactic?...Well yes it is but not one you shouldexpect to occur often.Sorry for the rant. She can't take much more Captain. ~

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 11:40 am:Edit

IF the Hydrans have to turn to catch you, it's real tough forthem to keep the fighters in front of their ships seperated by afew hexes. Unless they operate in a cloud around their ships.But every Hydran I've played against puts the in ship wreckingstacks of 4 or more.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Friday, March 29, 2002 -01:15 pm: Edit

I normally do the following which works for me.On the attack run I have packs engaged until the opponentreaches r9 or 10 to "the stack" of fighters. It normally is 2hexes in front of the main fleet.At R10 I have decisions to make and these border on manythings but mainly if one ship has ESG's up(BCH) and they are

flying in a 1 hex stack(common) I hit one of the otherships(most likely a SC4) with fusions at r10(with 12 fighters it isabout 40 damage).Then I either shut off packs and fade back through the fleet,HET away, turn off etc with the fighters. The lyran then has todecide what to do about his manuever. Let the internaled shipjust take further hits, ram his own ESG's, turn ESGs off etc.Normally I overrun with the rest of the fleet but I target adifferent ship than the fighters(I feel the other ship may befighter bait next turn so why ruin it for them).I also tend to have an anchor ship so I can ensure to get useout of my gats afterwards.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 02:01 pm:Edit

Kerry, I wasn't writing a 'tactic' at all, but simple relating anexperience where Lyran forces survived close contact withHydran forces.

And the only way to rebuff a synopsis, otherwise known as asummary, is if you know the details of the related game to beincorrect.

In this particular case, they had no packs and both forces hadspeed changes to much higher speeds in the second half ofthe turn. They only put out the fighters when it was obvious itwas going to be a close range pass instead of a run n gun theyhad expected from us and calculated for. So yes in a way youcould say I was relating a tactic, that of the bluff.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 11:30pm: Edit

I'm looking for some advice.

Tomorrow, me and a friend are gonna be playing the BattleForce scenario from CL24 (DNL jumps a guarded convoy,convoy must disengage at elast 200 boxes of cargo).

The raider is a Fed DNL with a pair of Thunderbolts.

I'm playing the convoy, eight large freighters guarded a a DWsquadron (DWL, two DWs, and a DWS, with all refits exceptmech-link).

Any tips or ideas? My geenral game plan is to stick close to thefreighters for at least the first turn or two (WS-0,so need to geteverything wramed up) and try and pound with the disruptorevery turn.


Put the freighters in the same hex. The ability to direct eight360o Ph-2s at any target ( and another eight RA Ph-3s ) isenough to protect from all the drones the Fed could try togenerate.

Concentrate everything else on the thunder-bolts unless theDN is offered to you. Once you take their drones out of theequation, the convoy will be more able to handle it'self againstthe DNL threat and you can deploy a more offensive set oftactics.


Use low powered fire control to save 0.5 points of power perfreighter.And break crippled freighters out of formation to avoid theirblast.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Tuesday, August 06,2002 - 10:17 am: Edit

OEW against the DNL, and then everyone else allocates apoint of ECM, and you have a guaranteed 1 shift against theFeds.

Personally, I think you should drop your shields and dare themto board you, but then I hate the Lyrans.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 -11:17 am: Edit

I'm more thinking with the freighters to turn off fire control andfo erratic. Combined with jamming this will make for a 2-shifton fire against them from the DNL. Drone defense I'm not twoworried about, as I'll have two channels for breaking lock onsand enough ph-2/3 and ESGs on the escorting vessels. I needto keep the freighters intact as possible.

My big question is do I kick out their shuttles and go speed 6(at least until I've worn the DNL down some), or do I go for maxspeed under erratics (10 or so)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 11:54am: Edit

Launch shuttles, run directly away at max speed (leaving theshuttles behind) - possibly with erratics and definitely no firecontrol. He'll either go around the shuttles to avoid their ph-3s(and lose some closing hexes), he'll kill them and comethrough (wasting power & weapons on something that don'thelp your victory conditions), or blow through them taking theirdamage (in which case you at least get some shield damageout of them. Think of the freighter shuttles as mini-tbombs andyou get what I'm saying...

Keep the DW squadron slightly behind the freighters, but closeto them (and each other) and dare the DNL to come through.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 -05:24 pm: Edit

LOL, once again, this scenario (as most published scenarios)is not winnable by the Federation.

Simply have 4 of the large freighter drop warp and sublightdisengage. Automatic since you will outnumber the Fed forcesby a substantial number. Game over on turn one.

Kevin M. McCollum

By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 -05:57 pm: Edit

The description in the battle force topic mentions that freightersmay only disengage by distance. Maybe this changed in thepublished version, I don't know...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 -09:58 am: Edit

Justin is correct, sublight disengagement of the freighterscount as destruction.

I lost, badly. I turned in turn 1, expecting to harrass a bit,maybe crunch the shields of one of the PFs and be in positionto deliver a solid blow ot the DNL turn two. I grosslyunderestimated his drone throweight. At the end of turn 1, aDW was vapor, the second had some internals and another

half dozen drones to deal with, the DWL had no power, and theDWS was down a shield with a full and one warp hit...andsome very angry Feds nearby.

I did learn a few lessons for next time.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Wednesday, August 07,2002 - 11:45 am: Edit

This is another thing that bothers me about many of thesestupid published scenarious. It is wartime and there is a scoutin the fleet and the ships get caught unprepared? Much likethat stupid scenario where a Romulan fleet gets caughtSURPRISED at a base with a known Kzinti fleet in the area.Silly stuff.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 01:07 pm:Edit

Tactics Question:

A DWp+ is defending a planet being attacked by a Rom K5Land K5R. The DW is obviously outgunned, but it wants to do atleast one internal, or in other words maximize damage to theenemy prior to disengagement.

We fought this out yesterday. Anyone have thoughts on whatthe options were/are?

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 03:09pm: Edit

My own limited experience would suggest keeping a highspeed on the Lyran and staying close to the planet. Use theplanet to duck plasmas if he launches, getting the plasma to hitthe planet. If he splits his forces to circle the planet and cut youoff, hit one of them (preferably the K5R) with everything you'vegot, then haul ass.

If he keeps them together, it'll be tougher. At that point youwant the battle to be near the map edge. You keep your speedup high, and dance a bit. If you can draw enough plasma offand run it out, you can come back during the reload turn andtry for a range-3 ESG ram on the oblique, backed up bydisruptors.

But then, I'm not a big Lyran player. ;-)

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 03:14pm: Edit

Keep your speed up, try for an ESG bluff to draw out someplasma. Limit your disruptor arming to power speed/tractors. Ifyou can get a clean ram plus phasers at range 3 you'lldefinitely get internals, and your shields are strong enough toshrug off single F-torps.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 -04:46 pm: Edit

Agree on high speed and trying for an ESG ram. Delayactivating the ESGs as long as you can to preserve the optionof running out a plasma launch. Use your speed (or ability toHET at high speed) to deny an oblique shot. Consider EW, ifthat rule is in use.

Despite the odds, I don't feel that battle is hopeless for the DW.It's got roughly the same available power at high speeds, ismore agile and carries more heavy weapons. If the first passgoes well (eg. a K5 mission killed in return for the DW's #5 and#6 shields) the DW could even hold the planet.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:36pm: Edit

To hold the planet the DW would have to get solid ESG ramson both ships, one at a time, w/o getting flattened by plasma.The Roms have a lot more phasers (7 P1s, 3 P2s total), and,Oh look, the K5L has G-torps, I'd forgotten about that.

Getting internals won't be difficult. Getting away afterwardwon't be too hard. Crippling the K5 is possible, especially if hecooperates by splitting up. But holding the planet is really longodds against.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:52 pm:Edit

Battle result: Romulan separated his ships by about 10 hexes.I took 3 of the four plasmas on different shields as I closed,getting between his two ships. They both turned off. His shipswere facing in opposite directions with me in hot pursuit of theK5R. I herded the K5R toward the map edge for a guaranteeddouble-ESG ram, but he dropped a large mine. His K5L camein behind me and fired on a weak shield, doing 7 internals andholding his last Pl-G. He got too close though - I turned leftbefore hitting the large mine with R3 ESGs and slammed theminto his F5L's #2 shield, followed by 2 overloaded disruptors,one std, 2-P1s, 2-P2s. Through a +2 shift, I hit with 1 overload,the four phasers did 16. Net result was 30 internals after theESG ram! He fired his last Pl-G, which I took on the forwardshield. I figured I had about a 30% chance of winning the fightnow (much better than when I started) because his tubes wereall empty, but I had 4 weak shields and I was an hour late inshowing up too, so I figured it was time to bug out. All-in-all,the battle went well for the DWp+.

This is a much better match-up than I thought based on howsweet the DWp+ is.

By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 03:21pm: Edit

Yeah, the refitted DW is freakin' amazing! And I wasn't veryimpressed with my Klingon-designed destroyers either. If onlythe K5L had a safe HET I might have avoided the ram (I'dactually started allocating it that turn before remembering the4-6 breakdown rating).

Anyway, lesson learned about splitting up for the "plasmasandwich" maneuver when the torps involved are so few andweak...

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 03:25 pm:Edit

I like the plasma sandwich - I use it with F torps all the timebecause it makes it hard/impossible to turn away. Problem isyou need to land 2 or more on a shield.

By Evan Honer (Parafighter) on Friday, August 22, 2003 -01:49 pm: Edit

I am new to the game and wondering what tactics you woulduse in a lyran ship/pf scenario. My tactic is to have each shipcarry its maximum amount of pfs and use the pfs to disract theenemy until an esg can hit them.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 01:58 pm:Edit

Don't do that - your ESGs are not your primary weapon,despite being racially-unique. If you use them as your primary

weapon, people simply maneuver away while hammering youbeyond R3.

Use your disruptors (on your PFs and on your ships) as yourprimary weapon, use your ESGs to defend against overruns byships, fighters or impacting drones (i.e. use your ESG primarilydefensively).

Use your ESGs offensively to slam a ship that gets sloppy - i.e.too close, and moving too slow, to get out of the way. Thethreat of your ESGs keeps also people away, so that is a"passive offensive use," if you will - it helps you maneuverthem, like other races use their seeking weapons.

Also, rarely can you activate your ESG too early - must peoplewait until too late.Hope this helps.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Friday, August 22, 2003 -03:40 pm: Edit

Be very careful to not accidentally use your esg to ram yourpf's or other shuttle craft.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, August 22, 2003 -03:53 pm: Edit

I have to agree with Marc, the primary offensive use of theESG is as a threat, forcing the enemy to keep his speed highto avoid a potential ram. This cuts into the power he can spendon weapons, allowing you a firepower advantage.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 -07:11 pm: Edit

Actually, Disruptors on a Lyran are a secondary system. Whenflying Lyrans, Power phasers 1st then disruptors usually givesbetter resutls.

Extra fractional power can go to the ESGs as you will use themeventually but until then they make good batteries.

ESGs I find have 3 uses (in order):1. Threat.2. Defensive (it is a 20 pt drone/helbore shield)and finally3. The Final Blow.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 -07:29 pm: Edit

In duels, I'd agree with that. In fleets it reverses, with theDisruptors becoming the main armament, then phasers, thenESGs.

Don't expect too much from ESG's, even in duels. A Kzin BCcan throw enough drones to take down the two ESG of a Tigerin a single launch, and can use the racks again for no powernext turn.

By Chris Young (Caychris) on Sunday, August 24, 2003 -01:25 am: Edit

I agree with Ken. Disr are only usefull when you are really inposition to cripple the ship.

Dont ever expect ESG to hit anything except fodder. Howeveruse them for the threat they are.They make an excellent tool for shredding a drone wave butthe real trick will be being able to keep the other kitty off yourback. For me often times he limps away waiting for the drones

to finish me off. I almost never see disruptors exchangedunless one or both is suicidal.

In fleets DISR is an awsome weapon but in a duel most lyransshould feed the phasers first.

Just remember you cant dance like a klingon and you cantcrunch like a fed and your idea of fighters would be likesending Bi-planes after ME-109's. What often ends up beingyour saving grace in the TC is the 2 suicides you can launch inone turn. Just dont sweep them out yourself.

I cant tell you the number of times an ESG has actually hit myopponent only result in me being tractored and killed.

ESG ram is not a real threat for most ships as At range 3 itsquite easy to manuver the ESG on to a non facing shield thenpound the lyran. Reduce the radius and it makes it even harderto hit someone and they can hit range 3 and pound the hell outof you. A captain worth his salt will never let you get the 5-3jump unless he has planed to take it on a non facing shield.

This also says little about the darn thing being blown off beforeit hits.

As a hellbore shield its wonderful :P ack the •••• thing auto hitsand they usually have more points in hellbore damage thanyou do in esg.

Not to mention keeping one up at all times is a very difficultthing to do.

I think the Lyrans need a direct fire mode for esg release. HeckPlasma boys got the bolt.

Anyway one lyrans opinion.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 04:31pm: Edit

A 'fist' mode for the ESG perhaps? A half sphere that shootsforward until it impacts something? Sounds fun.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 07:31pm: Edit

In SFC, they got the ESG Lance. Pretty cool DF version of theESG.

By Evan Honer (Parafighter) on Monday, August 25, 2003 -07:26 pm: Edit

As I recall something like that fist mode was rejected. ESGLance? What`s that?

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 -01:56 am: Edit

What I'd always liked the sound of is an ESG "pulsar", wherethe energy flashes out and damages everything at range 0,then range 1, and so on.

By Chris Young (Caychris) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 -02:54 am: Edit

Has anyone experimented with a tactic of getting an opponentto chase you put up the ESG and HET for the ram?===============================================

ISC TACTICSBy Jeffrey Moyers (Lordwulfen) on Saturday, May 18, 2002 -01:39 pm: Edit

Well I took a DN, 2 CA, 2 CL and 2 DD against , 2 Firehawksand Novahawk.

They uncloaked behind me at range 3 basically. I blew up allthree but lost the DN. They only got like 3 INTs on 3 shipsother than the DN. I really don't even have to repair the otherships for a while. But now to take the planet I have a a BATS,DN and 2 CA to go thru.

Any thoughts on how to assault this base. I have notdeveloped BB or carriers yet as we are only on turn 40 andstarted with no tech at all.

I know I will have to have at least two fleets to assault with buthave never fought against a base before. I do have access toscouts now but only have class II fighters.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 02:17 am:Edit

Are you not using PPD fleet limits? Im at work so cant check itbut that looks illegal if so.

Sounds like fun though.

By Marc Baluda (Discomaster) on Monday, May 20, 2002 -12:54 pm: Edit

That's a legal fleet. 6 PPDs - flagship (4), CA (1) +2 CLs, CA(1). He doesn't even need the DDs to make S8. He could addanother CA or CM if he wanted to.

By Jeffrey Moyers (Lordwulfen) on Monday, May 20, 2002 -03:45 pm: Edit

The flagship doesn't count against the limit. Otherwise I couldonly have like 3 in fleet altogether. A cloaking BATS poses aproblem though. I am not looking for forward to it.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 02:40 am:Edit

Ah right. For some reason I was stuck on thinking 'cant have 2cas in a 7 ship fleet with a DN' for some reason. Now Iremember why. I was sticking CCs into 7 ship fleets (with DN)and then not being able to put a CA in to complement it.

Which is one reason why I really want the CAT.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:50am: Edit

I am playing in a pick up game later this week, and am playingthe ISC for the first time. I've played against them before, butam not up on ISC tactics. So, I need some advice on whatships to pick, and what to do. Here's the specifics:

ISC vs. Andromedans

Open, floating map.

BPV limit is 750, no EW.

Any ideas?

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:02am: Edit

This isn't a particularly attractive matchup for the ISC. TheAndro is good against plasma (pa mines make short work ofthem, good speed, disdev).

However, the game setup is slanted towards the Andro as well.At higher BPVs, the Andro starts losing effectiveness quickly(ships die in a single shot, can't field as large a fleet as agalactic power). However, 750 is a fairly good number for theAndromedan. Your weapons (plasma & PPD) are not effectedthat greatly by EW, while the Andro weapons are relativelymore effected (esp disdev) - so playing without EW hurts aswell. Floating Map favors the Andro.

Suggestions:- get as many PPDs as you can (duh...)- See if your opponent would agree to a large fixed map(maybe 2x2)- play with EW- Play the Feds


Geoff wrote ages ago...

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Are you not using PPD fleet limits? Im at work so cant check itbut that looks illegal if so------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was under the impression that S8 limits did not apply tocampaigns. S8 reflects the historical usage of particularsystems, but is meant to assist in producing patrol battles.

I would think a better way to simulate the PPD effect in acampaign is to allow xx PPDs to be built per yyyy income. Onlyso many could be built, but if the ISC player wanted to hoardthem for a particular battle - that should be his perogative. Ifyou want to field a fleet of 3xDNs, 3xCCs, ... - go for it, but youwon't have any command elements to protect other locations.This is something that has always bothered me. I witnessed acampaign once where a Tholian player was told he couldn'tattack with a particular fleet because it had too manywebcasters. I could just see the scene...N-DN, SC, N-CC, 2xN-CA, 3xN-CL, 4xT-CAW attack a lightlydefended Klingon SB. The Klingon commander comes out in ashuttle and announces that p. 842 says that the Tholian fleet isillegal. The Tholians wrap his shuttle in web, wrap the SB inweb, and proceed to pummel the pitiful Klingons.

Sorry to dredge up an old topic - I missed this one the first timearound...

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:30 am:Edit

Having played operation Unity with the Plasma boys I canmake a few comments.GeneralPPD's are good PF's are very goodKen Burnside would say at 750 points you should have enoughfirepower to pop or damage it enough to force to run away aMothership whenever it tries to push an attack run. If youropponent goes with a Dominator I'm not convinced. Dominatorand energy moduals be afraid be very afraid.

Specificsadly PPD's and PF's are kinda expensive so you can't reallyhave both.EitherPFT + 6 PFs is most of your points about 250bpv left say FFLand 2 FFsAlternativelyCC and CS and a SC leave about 250.

A scout is good for lending motherships OEW and complicatingtheir Displacement tricks. Pick an MRS for your command shipif possible.

Much general anti-Andro advise is available on the boardsomewhere.


I think that 750 isn't enough for a plasma fleet to be able to popa ship per turn. That rule may hold for the DF races (espFed/Klingon), but for Plasma - you'll have to hope that boltshit...

I was also thinking of PFs, but for this size fleet - there just isn'tenough left BPV wise to make it viable. On an open map, themothership (a DOM for example) will just stay at range andpop a couple of PFs (or a FF/DD) per turn. You need to havesome PPDs to force the issue. Of course, you should expect adisdev attempt on any ship that tries to use more than 1 PPDat a time - displacement will cause your lockon to be lost andyou'll lose pulses...


Mike,It looks like your opponent is trying to muchkin you awaymaximizing all his advantages and minimizing yours.If the years are OK for it I would take in the casual PF fleet.CC,CA,CL 4 casual PFs or 5 if you can fit them in.If allowed Xships definitely take them. ie a pair of Xcruiserswould be helpful.Most likely he is taking a dominator variant(the 6 trh one).You want to give him R8-12 by EOT. You want to get anenveloper or two out near the end of turn one(with like 3-5hexes of separation) and the PFs trailing these. Take his shotand then PPD his rear.Or you can do the run and crush him. Fire nothing at him buttry to keep the range open for 2-5 turns(moving high speedand just letting him burn batts chasing you).When he slows down turn in and then start to play.My favorite is the guessing game. As he comes in launch S'sthree at a time(initials are psuedo). Do this twice with 5 hexesseparation.Sacraifice a couple Pfs and after he turns PPD hisrear while bolting S's and phasers. Then turn and Bolt the F'sat him.Really at this point value and his not having any limitaions dueto mother ship pick(I would limit him to an INT variat no DOMs)you are gonna have an uphill battle.If you get EW at least you can take a scout and put upoffensive EW to shift his fire.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:53 am:Edit

Oh missed the no EW. Andro playing without EW boggle.

I believe I might get bolt happy.Phaser-1 is your friend

PF's probably not worth it without EW.

So 2nd force I suggested replace scout with DDLPerhaps DNT CC DDL and 2FF looks nice.

DN with 4 PPD too vulnerable to DD.Only ever fire 1 PPD at atime to minimise DD tricks.

IF you fire phaser1's on impulse 25 then you should be safefrom opponent DDing in and out before your guns recycle. Ifthey do hop close thats a good target for F torps.

hum I've blathered more than enough. Good luck and let usknow how it goes.

For Scale Admiral Ssesbor Scorge of the Invaders

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:11pm: Edit

Also, one last thing - the ISC echelon is a myth. Spreading outyour ships as you are "supposed to" allows the enemy to targetyour forward ships while still maintaining an advantageousrange to your big boys.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 03:41pm: Edit

Yes and no, Tony. An echelon works rather well...so long as itis not spread out. By that, I mean have your gunline in adjacenthexes to each other, the 2nd echelon directly behind, and thecore ship (3rd echelon) 2 hexes behind the lead gunline ship(and the scout as a "4th echelon" behind the core ship). Thisway, if the enemy is at range 8 from the gunline, they are atrange 10 from the core PPD ship...which suits the PPD rangebrackets nicely. Given plasma ranges, it's just dandy for thesecond echelon, too, as the enemy is in the "glory zone". Thescout is at a nice, comfy range 11 from the enemy -- closeenough to play any desired scout games while far enough todeter enemy fire.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:35pm: Edit

The setup for this game is what it is. However, we aresimulating the first invasion of the Andros, when the obliteratedmost of the ISC fleet that was out doing police duty. So, he willbe playing a very offensive game. Frankly, I don't know whatI'm gonna do. I'm leaning toward PPD's, of course, but onenice thing about Andros is they can't weasel...so normalplasmas are okay, too.

My opponent will almost certainly take a Dominator, probablywith some type of energy module for a sat ship. He really lovesthat combination. I'll have to think about what I want, but I'mshying away from PF's...too expensive, and not very durable.

A question: how does an enveloping plasma affect PA panels?Anyone know where to find that?


Type S enveloper hits at range 5 (so 60 damage). Half isapplied to front PA, half to back

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:57pm: Edit

Tony,the S8 limits are there for multiple reasons. 1 is balancedgames, 2 is historical fleet deployments.

If you like both, I suggest using them. Discarding them opensup a pandora's box of perils that is just better left alone imo.

But if you and your players want to do open ended fleetdeployment, then allow everyone to do so.

But the tholians will then win the campaign (short ofoverwhelming odds).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, June25, 2002 - 10:10 pm: Edit

1) IF you overload a PPD you get 6 pulses but you restrictyourself to only being able to fire in the ranges 4 to 8! Soconsider never overloading unless the Andro does somethingreally stupid.

2) Envelopes to have the advatage that the enemy will think hecan walk throught them and come through and fire, but you'llbe filling his rear sheilds to stop him transfering the damage.


Geoff,

In a campaign setting, the player sets the tactical doctorine. Inthe particular case I mentioned, the Tholians (of course)bagged the Klingon SB. However, since something like 85% oftheir web casters (and most of their quality hulls) were offdoing something un-tholian, they lost 2 of their own BATS (andprobably would have lost more).

WCs (and PPDs) are limited resources. Using them all up in 1battle may produce overwhelming odds in your favor, but whatare you giving up in other theatres?

This is all outside of patrol type battles. There, the S8 rulesprovide a very useful tool to prevent munchkinism...

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:37pm: Edit

This is a general tactics question, but I'm preparing for an ISCgame, and using ISC examples, so that's why its here.

Big ships versus small ships: which are better?

In preparing for a fight versus 3 D5s, why would I ever take2xFF when I could trade them in for a light cruiser? I'm not veryexperienced, but I know enough to know that 4 x F torp isn'tmarkedly better than 2 x S torp. Plus the CL has 4 x F torp inits rear firing racks, which the FF don't have at all.

I see that the two FFs have more sheilding in toto, but that'sbalanced against the fact that they're individually weaker andgoing to be mass disruptored for internals before theirweapons become effective.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Saturday, November 16, 2002- 04:22 am: Edit

In general, bigger ships will do well against small ships. Thisbecomes more pronounced when using EW, which larger shipshave more power for. In the small extreme, PFs and fighterssurvive only through effective use of their free EW.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 -11:37 am: Edit

That difference is magnified in the case of the ISC, who enjoybig ships with about 20% more combat power than theirequivalents in other fleets. The ISC DD and, particularly, theFF are somewhat lack luster when compared to the small shipsbeing produced by other races by the time of the pacification.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Saturday, November 16,2002 - 02:41 pm: Edit

While the two FF's have weaker plasma armamant than thesingle CL, they have substantially more phasers and arenimble. I think taking them would be a reasonable choice,provided that you're not using EW.

ISC small ships do look a little inadequate when comparing towestern equivalents, but they stack up well against Gorn orRom designs.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday,November 16, 2002 - 07:04 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:, but I know enough to know that 4 x F torp isn't markedlybetter than 2 x S torp------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ummm correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that...

The ability to do 80 points of damage every 2 turns, Vs theability to do 60 ( or possibly 120 ) points of damage every threeturns.

Plus it's 4 rolls of 3 on 2D6 instead of 2 rolls of 3.

Still the bigger the ISC ship is, the more likely you can have aPPD on it which will put the kybosh on some of the DisruptorTactics...R15 Dues are quite handy for the ISCs ( particularly ifmultiply ships' Ph-1s ( Average 1.0 points of damage!?! ) arelevelled against the one ship's sheilds.Also the S-Torp Bolt is FAR better at dishing up counterdamage at that range than the F-Torp Bolt...But investing themin such an attack is particularly risky...you made need to armthem as Fs, just to get to use them again before the Klingontakes them away from you.

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 -08:39 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Ummm correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that...

The ability to do 80 points of damage every 2 turns, Vs theability to do 60 ( or possibly 120 ) points of damage every threeturns.------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its 80 points every 3 turns versus 60-120 every 3 turns. Pl-Fhave 3 turn arming cycle, methinks. Plus in my experience noone gets hit by plasma Fs in the first 5 hexes, so they'reeffectively 15 point warheads.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 -01:43 pm: Edit

If this is a floating map and the enemy has D5s, you need aPPD. S-torps are a valid 2nd choice, but Fs are pretty muchuseless; they'll never hit.

On a fixed map it's a bit closer; the FFs can go erratic andattempt to mug the D5s, but are probably best used as dronedefence.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Monday, November 18, 2002 -01:51 pm: Edit

Dave:

The principle use of FFs in an ISC fleet are:1) attrition ships (i.e. they are used like PFs prior to PFavailability); and2) most importantly, they fill out the fleet for purposes of S8,allowing you to maximize PPD deployment.

The ISC CL series of ships has an abundance of power. It isvery similar to most races CA, but it has a CW power curve.

I suggest taking a CS, CM combination (the CS has 2 PPDs,the CM has 1 PPD and 2 G torps). This will cost 305. You canalso buy some t-bombs to deal with drones.

I'm guessing you will actually have around 420 pts, so youcould also buy 2 PFs on casual mechlinks, which will give youthe close-range firepower you need for a bumrush. Otherwise,buy a DD or FF.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Monday, November 18, 2002 -02:20 pm: Edit

Dave:

A better plan would be to take a CC and CA (BPV 406), with t-bombs, but I'm not sure if you want to keep it to CL hulls. Bythe way, the CA hulls don't have as good a power curve as theCL hulls.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 -04:45 am: Edit

Don't worry about stringing out PPD fire either. As long as thetarget isn't at a WW speed impulse 1 fire, impulse 2 emer decelwavelock continues, impulse 3 wavelock, impulse 4 decelcomplete and WW =loss of 1 set of pulses.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Thursday, November 21, 2002- 02:33 pm: Edit

Jay, remember that wavelock loss isn't automatic, that it willmerely adjust the EW situation in the target's favor, which willforce a re-roll for wavelock.

By Stephen Rasmussen (Razman) on Wednesday, November27, 2002 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Personally i am MORE than willing to give up one pulse of myPPD to get a WW, Or even in some cases just to get them toturn off.

It gives me an edge that i can exploit in other ways.

For that matter, Did i really have the ppd fully charged?Suckering my opponant into avioding my "overloaded" PPDhas won me games before.

Just trying to remind people that one of the strengths of thePPD is that it can be charged to as many pulses as you thinkwill hit.It is almost as versitile as plasma.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 -07:29 pm: Edit

THE ISC ECHELON

Does it work? Did it ever? Would a modified version work nowor would an ISC commander be better off ignoring it completelyand using some other kind of formation, and if so what?

I'd like to hear from Marc Baluda in particular, he hadinteresting ideas on 'flanking' gunline ships, PPD ships in thefront, etc.

(and No I'm not an ISC newbie, I just enjoyed readingeveryone's different takes on how to fly them and what to shootat in them in the Klingon tactics thread)

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 -07:33 pm: Edit

By Richard K Glover;Frankly, if I were the ISC, I'd consider a modified retrograde -fly the PPD ships in reverse, and the rest of them forward butaway from the enemy. When the time comes to engage, thegunline turns around - the PPD ships flying in backwards orperhaps they'd stop and start moving forward at speed 10(which gives them an oppportunity to use the PPD on the wayin), with the gunline ships moving in with their guns bearingwhile moving fast.

Viable? Or not? The weaker rear shields on the gunline are aninviting target imo, as are the weaker phaser arrays to the rearfor drone swarms.

But it is certainly an interesting new take on the old.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 -07:55 pm: Edit

I think the echelon can still be used in principle, but you reallyneed to pull the range between ships way in. Keeping thegunline more than three hexes in front of the last ship (a DN inthe case of a full fleet) is just not nessesary and it makes themtoo vulnerable to long range sniping out side of effective PPDrange. If you are the ISC, you want your targets between range9 and 16 to get the best use out of the PPDs and prevent theiruse of overloads. Sticking the gunline way out in front justleaves them vulnerable to enemy weapons outside the PPDs'"sweet spot". I would tend to put the "gunline" at range twofrom the DN and put the "second rank" ships in between,particularly if they have Pl-S torps. A smaller group could bepulled into just one hex from the flagship.

Marc and I have talked about using the gunline on the flank toherd the enemy into the teeth of the PPDs. I think it is mosteffective against a disruptor fleet that doesn't have a high one-turn crunch. It leaves the disruptor fleet with a tough quandry.Flying into the face of the flanking DDs will result in a volley ofPl-Fs and a turn off. Ignoring the flank and driving at the PPDships will leave them trapped between two volleys of plasma.Sort of like a closing trap. I would need to draw a map toexplain it as I understand it, but I suspect Marc can do a betterjob.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 -10:19 pm: Edit

the key thing to useing the echalon is to plan ahead of timehow to turn it (and treat turning each ship 60 degrees like asideslip) and bring in the range. consider doubling the gunlineships per hex.

the origional echalon was formed in the days where theklingons used hydran hunters as mobile t-bombs to clear outthe hydran fighters. with the greatly reduced explosion strenthsof the doomsday edition the space between ships is notneeded and as noted above it puts your ships out ofsupportable range.

when figuring out how to turn plan to cross your fleet over itselfrather then one side slowing down while the other speeds up.

in the spread out echalon this let you keep all your ships withinsped 3 or so of each other, with a tight echalon it should beable to keep them within 1-2 of each other (I'll have to plot thisout)

the best fleet you can build will not include any gunline shipsbut for this discussion let's assume that you have a 'historical'fleet rather then an optimized one (and your opponent does aswell)

what you are doing is keeping your short ranged light vesselsin a location that they can only be targeted by massed fire ofthe opposing fleet without the opposing fleet closing inside theweapons range of the heavy ISC ships. In this location they doa good job of killing anything small (including drones) that'sheaded for the fleet. If the opposing ships do try to close togood weapons range of the big ships then the small ships havea chance to use their torpedos agains them.

the fundamental problem is that the small plasma ships are sorange limited that they can't do much without getting in close,and it's hard to force your opponent to close the range.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday,November 27, 2002 - 11:49 pm: Edit

------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Frankly, if I were the ISC, I'd consider a modified retrograde -fly the PPD ships in reverse, and the rest of them forward butaway from the enemy. When the time comes to engage, thegunline turns around - the PPD ships flying in backwards orperhaps they'd stop and start moving forward at speed 10(which gives them an oppportunity to use the PPD on the wayin), with the gunline ships moving in with their guns bearingwhile moving fast.------------------------------------------------------------------------

It will work for a reason, but won't for another.

You send your plasma ships rushing forward, launchingplasma at much closer range then the PPDs are ever going tofire at and the PPD ships stop being the primary targetfor...oh...20 hexes of movement of the first turn and 30 on thesecond...about two turns.At the start of the 3rd turn the PPD ships could easily bemoving at 31R.

If the enemy wasn't going to go for the over-run prior to youractions you just winde up having a rear shields and rearphaser arcs facing the enemy for the entire duration of theretrograde.

If the enemey was going to close slowly...then you could haveput your entire fleet into retrograde and gotten thosemagnificent phaser-1 arcs to fire at the enemey for the entireduration of the retrograde.

Firing off your plasma in a lot of cases will be enough to keepthe enemy at bay for 2 turns ( one to close range and one toavoid the plasma...which ones were the Psuedos again!?!),you may only want two turns because the extra phaserfirepower makes a slower retrograde ( speed 20 ) morepalletible ( because you can break through any enemy REO orECM that is allowed to be generated by a slower retrograde).The thought of all those Ph-1s might be enough to keep anenemy away from charging down your retrograde @ 20R for aturn...long eneough to put the retrograde up to 31R, if youreally want it.

The sujested manouver works if YOU KNOW that the enemy isgoing to play his darnest to charge-down.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Thursday, November 28,2002 - 06:10 am: Edit

MJC;

If the enemy isn't going to charge you, then the direction ofyour phaser-Is and G-torps are facing don't really matter much,since you're not going to be firing them at long range.

The idea is that this retrograde has a built-in escape clause.When the time comes to change tactics, you can.

F°Saddam Hussein still has his job. Do you?

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 08:20pm: Edit

Out of curiosity Richard, have you tried this tactic?

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Saturday, November 30,2002 - 06:50 am: Edit

Geoff;

Heck, no. I hardly get time to play tourney games on SFBOL.Working up a full-blown fleet action is a dream.

F°Drive A: format failed, formatting Drive C: instead.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, December 01, 2002 -03:11 pm: Edit

I didn't think so.

No local groups to play with though? My sfb group is playingD&D and its fun, but I'm really getting more and more anxiousto play a full on fleet battle.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Sunday, December 01,2002 - 09:28 pm: Edit

I'm in a similar situation. Local play group is doing D&D fornow. heck, even if they went back to SFB, I couldn't take part -my life has become just way too hectic.

F°Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 -02:21 pm: Edit

Geoff:

I don't think the Echelon, as put forth in the Tactics Manual,ever worked.

While the original Echelon dealt with the issue of shipexplosions well, it did not deal with drone defense well.Further, the idea that "ships penetrating the gunline wouldhave to deal with the forward firing weapons of the second andthird line, as well as the rear firing weapons of the gunline" isabsurd. I can't even imagine why someone would ever be inthis situation. You would have to fly through the gunline withoutthe gunline turning to bring their rear weapons (which are onlyon the DD, and not on the FF, by the way) to bear tosupplement the forward firing torpedoes - all it takes is one 60degree turn for the DD to bring one of its rear torps into play.

I tried to fly an Echelon as described in the Tactics Manual,and even under the old rules where it was arguably mostuseful it didn't work well.

I view flying the ISC as similar to flying a combined Fed-Gornfleet or a combined Hydran hellbore-fusion fleet. Lots of P-1s,long range weapons (the Photon is similar to the PPD in a fleetwhen you look at the increased numbers Feds have withregard to heavy weapons) and plasma.

You must bring the plasma into play to have success. This canbe done using standard Gorn tactics. For instance, flankingyour opponents and forcing them into your launched plasma.Nothing scares people more than: 1) having to run throughplasma; or 2) getting pinned by a wall of plasma against themap barrier (or another wall of plasma).

Another option relies more heavily on the PPD, which can beused to strip ships of weapons once a shield is down. You canbring the shield down by firing the PPD on the same impulseyou bolt a massive amount of plasma. I've done it, and it workswell. You bolt all the plasma you can onto the biggest ship onthe same impulse you fire the PPDs and P-1s (if they aren'ttied up with drone defense). The result is a mission-killed (ordestroyed outright) ship that is stripped of weapons - this willwork on any dreadnought in the game. You use your rear-firingtorps to cover your retreat while you reload. It's a bit like aKlingon saber dance with torpedoes filling the role of drones.

When fighting disruptor or photon ships, the PPD can't makeup for the number of disruptors on the board. So, you need tohope that he fiddles with your smaller ships (i.e. the "gunline")while you hammer his disruptor ships. It sounds like a lot ofpeople are advocating shooting at the gunline, but I love itwhen people do that - it means that you are setting up acharge to overload range (or else you wouldn't care aboutshort ranged plasma ships, would you?). Also, always keepthese ships on max ECM and under erratic maneuvers toprotect them - the FFs, if not under erratics, also get theirnimble ship bonus providing natural ECM. I can make sure youlose this charge by using my wall of rear-firing plasma as theequivalent of a gunline.

Always remember - speed is life. It is true with regard to allraces, but more so with regard to the ISC because if they cancontrol the range they win. Use launched plasma to forcemovement, and bolted plasma to bring down shields for thePPD.

Fighting drones is a bitch - you need to downfire your P-1s asP-3s to save power. You also need t-bombs. Keep your shipsin groups able to defeat at least 20 drones using the above(along with tractors). If more than that are launched at a groupof small ships, have them go defensive and maneuver thedrones through some t-bombs - if the DDs are under erraticsyour FF can still use their nimble bonus to protect them fromdisruptors or photons while dropping t-bombs. If the drones arechasing one group of attrition ships off, they aren't getting inthe way of my cruisers.

Sorry if the above is vague, but no single tactic works. Youhave to be flexible and adapt your tactics to counter youropponents strengths. If you do this, the ISC are one of themost difficult races to defeat.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 -03:08 pm: Edit

Marc - I agree that the Echelon does not work. The reason itdoes not work, is that the opponent has greater firepower thanthe ISC outside of range 10, and more firepower inside range8. A fleet of disruptors can put out more damage than 7 PPD's

at range 15, 22 or 30, never mind what prox photons can do.This does not take into account EW status, and the entiregunline in erratic maneuvers does make a difference; however,if the gunline is erratic you can close to 15(or 22 or 30) with thePPD armed ships and hit them with 30+ disruptors and dointernals. 7 PPD's will hurt a ship, but you can fire every turnand 30 disruptors do more damage each turn than 7 PPD's. Itis very difficult to land plasma on any form of open map, butthe ISC would be well suited to dropping a base from range 10or 15. When a line of ships must blunder forward because theycan not retreat, ISC ships do become deadly. All of those smallships launching lots of small plasma against opponents whocan not turn off is very bad.

Most opponents can defeat the ISC by playing the ISC's ownsupposed game, keeping the range open and firing repeatedshots to wear down the ISC fleet, while taking no plasma.


Bill:

Right, that's why you either need to flank the opposing fleetwith your plasma boys, or be prepared to bolt your plasma.

I must say that I think the discrepancy in firepower between adisruptor fleet and a PPD fleet is offset if you use plasma bolts.You will kill a ship on the first turn of fire, but the disruptor shipswill not. They get to fire again the next turn, but they will be ona different shield and will be chasing you through plasma.

I don't think that the disruptor fleet has the distinct advantagebeing argued here and in "Klingon Tactics." Any advantagecan be offset, but you can't rely on the PPD alone to do so.Think of it this way - at least you're not a Gorn!

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 -06:33 pm: Edit

So does an open or fixed map favor the ISC?

personally I've had success with charging the enemy on anopen map, forcing them to turn from the forest of plasma andPPDing ships until they had to drop out of formation, continuinguntil there was only one left and that ship would be destroyed.The rest of the ships would be damaged and behind me tryingnot to pursue me too directly because of plasma, which wouldbe used anyways to ensure I can turn around to repeat thetactic.

Of course a player that knows and expects this can bunkerdown at the right moment and cause lots of mayhem, but then Iwould wheel off and pick him apart at range until he sped upagain.

We are talking squadron size here though, fleet size isproblematic with the greater # of weapon salvoes on thegunline.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Tuesday, December 03,2002 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Fixed map favors ISC, floating map favors disr/photon armedships.


Kevin:

Not if the ISC is fighting Gorns or Romulans.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Stephen Brackett (Brak) on Wednesday, December 04,2002 - 09:54 am: Edit

I'm hardly an expert at ISC tatics but one tack I've tried a fewtimes that seemed o be effective was to place the gunline twohexes in front of the second echelon spread out two hexesapart with the third echelon two hexes behind the second. Flythe formation fairly slow 6ish with a lot of speed changes, stop,tacs, reversing directions etc to keep thing a littleunperdictable. Brick up and EW the gunline. And always keepa forest of plasma in front of the gunline timed to hit the otherforce at a ten range if they headed straight for you. As long asthere is enough plasma being tossed at him he has to move ata good speed and will not close.

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 -02:46 pm: Edit

There seem to be some funny inconsistancies about the ISC.

1) They are blessed with the best sniping weapon in the game,but orders from On High keep its numbers so restricted thatbattle fleets often end up outgunned at long range with respectto the feds and disruptor races. I understand that the PPDinitially is a wonder-weapon, but after a generation of shipshave been built, surely they've got the fac capacity in place tobuild as many as they want. And after the Andros attack theygo to great pains to get them OFF their ships... at that pointshouldn't they have as many as they want?

2) Ironically, the PPD becomes overwhelming in smallerbattles. No one wants to play BCH versus ISC CC. (errr ...right?)

3) The consensus on this board seems to be that their echelontactics are sub-optimal, bordering on suicidal. There is notreally any point to their FF or DD classes, other than "historicalrealism" of a _made_up_ history.

4) They have stupid fleet deployment restrictions. (Well,against the Andros they finally got some race-specific counterships, but until then they were comically stupid.) For example,they may _not_ stock up on DDAs when fighting the Kzinti, butmust take those same (now completely useless) DDAs whenescorting a carrier versus the Gorn. Its not like they don't*know* what weapons the Kzin and Gorn are going to use. Yetthey bring the wrong tool for the job.

_________

I would encourage players to break these rules in their owngames:

1) disobey "mandatory carrier escort rule" when its dumb (forall races, not just ISC)

2) Relax PPD deployment restrictions after Y190, and beforethat relax them for certain well-planned battles in disruptor orphoton controlled space.

3) disobey implied "historical" fleet deployments. If I were theISC I'd be building cruisers in a 3-1 ratio to frigates, not theother way around.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 -03:38 pm: Edit

Stephen:

You are describing a traditional Echelon, and I don't think thatis you most effective tactic. Also, keeping a forest of plasma infront of your gunline means that you are not planting thatplasma on the enemy but merely keeping them away. Thismeans you are relying on your PPDs, which doesn't workagainst disruptor and photon fleets.

Dave:

Advocating breaking the rules doesn't seem like a tactics issue.Perhaps you could suggest fleets at certain point breaks thatmaximize PPD deployment - trust me, their are several pointbreaks that allow maximum PPD deployment with as fewpoints as possible. Also, DDs and FFs are in every fleet, andthey all have the same drawbacks compared to cruisers, so Idon't understand the "cruiser only" production schedule youare advocating.

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 -08:48 pm: Edit

Marc:

Thanks for your reply. I think I was too grouchy when I wrotethat. Sorry for being OT.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 -08:53 pm: Edit

Dave:

No sweat. I think you have touched on a subject that isimportant - the ISC fight everybody, but yet aren't able to tailortheir ships for a front.

I understand that this could be a can of worms if all racesscream for theater-specific refits, but the ISC are an exceptionthat fought every race.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 -09:58 pm: Edit

Marc;keeping a forest of plasma in front of your gunline means thatyou are not planting that plasma on the enemy but merelykeeping them away. This means you are relying on your PPDs,which doesn't work against disruptor and photon fleets.

But if you advance at flank speed while firing the ppds into theenemy, what are they going to do? Turning back in forsuccessive salvoes DOES make them plasma bait against anaggresive ISC, basically forcing them to castle to get weaponsback into arc or biding their time until they have all droppedback behind the ISC to regroup.

Again, I am speaking from limited squadron experience notfleet experience.

By Daniel O'Neil (Phoenix1189) on Thursday, December 05,2002 - 09:25 am: Edit

Geoff,

I think that's where the importance of drones to slow down theISC comes in. Makes me think that Lyrans have a rough timeagainst these guys when the fleet sizes get big.

By Stephen Brackett (Brak) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 -01:45 pm: Edit

Marc,

As I said I am no expert in the ISC but reading this thread ledme to believe that players were moving at a much faster ratethan I was suggesting.Also most of my ISC games have been at the 500-700 BPVrange were long range snipes aren't as devastating as in a bigfleet battle hence a slow moving re-enforced FF doesn't getdestroyed in a 15 range shot.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 -02:17 pm: Edit

Geoff:

Then pick a speed - because if you are going too fast yourplasma won't be more than 3 hexes in front of you before itruns out of steam. It definitely won't be at 8 hexes to preventan overload run on your gunline.

By the way, I fly very fast when I play, so I'm not advocatingslowing down. I'm advocating not using plasma to push peopleaway - you use it to push them right or left, hopefully intoanother wall of plasma because they are flanked. Oneexception to pushing people away is when you are PPDdancing and use rear firing plasma to prevent an onslaughtduring a reload turn, but this is not "in front of" your ships andonly happens when you have stripped enough ships of heavyweapons that you get the upperhand in long range firepower.

Stephen:

Try taking a CS (155), CM (150), 2xFF (156) plus COs for 500.That gives you 3 PPDs and plenty of plasma to scare off anoverrun.

Try taking a CC (220), CS (155), 3xDD (270) plus COs for 700.That gives you 4 PPDs and plenty of plasma to scare off anoverrun.

3 PPDs (12 pulses, say 9 hit for 9 volleys) can strip a heavycruiser (or even a DN) of all (or most) of its weapons if you canbring down the shield using bolted plasma and P-1s (notdifficult to do, by the way). Four PPDs can definitely do a DN.

Be agressive and use the smaller ships (the FFs or DDs) asattrition ships that you are willing to see explode at the rate ofone every other turn. Get in his face like you would with PFs.

By the way, if you can take PFs on mechlinks, I would. Theyare as good as FFs.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:01am: Edit

also note that the F&E rules for the ISC in CL25 allow for theuse of 6 gunline ships to count as 4 command slots.

this isn't as good as replacing all the gunline ships withcruisers, but if you can't do that (lack of cruisers available) itdoes add noticably to your firepower.

also the production limits in CL25 limit the ISC to a very smallnumber of PPD ships produced each year (4 per turn/8 peryear IIRC, my copy is at home) which does explain why youdon't see a large fleet of PPD only ships. that fleet would bevery powerful, but it would strip a couple other fleets of theirPPD ships

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 02:21am: Edit

DL:Good points.

As I was reading your post, I was thinking to myself "and anyPPD-less fleet would be extremely weak". Then I woke up andrealized that the ISC plasma boats are perfectly respectable asjust plasma boats, not much different, BPV-wise, from theother Big Plasma races'.

If I were the ISC commander in charge of a front, with threesubfleets, I would be sorely tempted to put my DN and CSesall in the same fleet, and leave the other fleets with merely CAsand CLs, (with a CC or CVA for command ship, if commandwere an issue).

If the hydran did this and created an all-hellbore super-fleet,one might argue that the all-fusion not-so-super-fleets wouldget sabredanced to death and the war would be lost. I don'tthink plasma is as bad as fusions. I don't think the weak shipswould loose per se.

How about this:Before a battle, in secret, the ISC player rolls 1d6 on thefollowing table:

1-3: No PPDs for you, except a command ship (and even thenno 4-ppd DNs - take CVA/SCS/Whatever instead)4-5: Traditional PPD limits6: Your fleet may have all the PPDs you want!!!

This represents whether or not fleet HQ gives your fleet priorityin PPD selection. It also requires you to prepare 3 fleets, butsuch is life.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 04:37am: Edit

as far as the non-PPD fleet strength goes that depands larglyon what oopponent you are facing.

if you are facing Rom/Gorn then you are not in bad shape, butwith an all plasma fleet make sure you close up the formation(you don't want to sacrafice the range of the heavy plasmas,especially if your opponents have R's and your largest are S's)

however if you are facing a western fleet, they will have aneasier time dealing with your plasma (more optimized to dealwith lots of seeking weapons)

however I do like the uncertanty that the rioll would give you,however I would make it1-2 no PPD's3-5 standard limits6 no limit

to reflect the fact that the standard limits were the mostcommon.

now combine this with tac-intel and things get real fun

now that I am finally home I can look at CL25

the production limits on PPD's are 4 ships/pods per 6 monthswith PPDs until Y184 when the limit goes to 6 per 6 months.

the gunline formation allows 6 DD/FF class ships (no morethen 3 of them DD class) to use 4 command slots so your fleetbecomes

free scout3xDD3xFFDNwith room for 6 additional ships

if you look at the gunline replacing 4xCL it's a much morereasonable tradeoff then if you look at them as replacing 6xCA

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, February 03, 2003 -07:36 am: Edit

Bolting isn't too bad for the ISC. After all, the whole point wouldbe fire everything and then turn the echelon away. Anyonewanting to follow eats your rear-Fs and maybe a spot of othersaved plasma if they persist.

But really, I can't see why the big ISC ships should me morethan a couple of hexes behind the gunline, if that (exception -scouts/carriers coule be further back). Rarely will an enemy fireat your DN if they only scratch shields when they cripple anFF/DD with the same fire. And against the fast ships of Y180+(also with good arcs), the ISC cannot afford to come off worsein a R8 exchange, their gunline getting pummeled while theirbig ships are at 9-15 for phasers. Klingons withD5s/F5Ws/C7s/HDWs can do R8 overloads (or just R15standards) and run away at speed 31 if they get things thiermid-turn speed changes right, keeping your big ships out of R8(or R15) - remember the FH DSR arcs.

===============================================

SELTORIAN TACTICSBy Eric Stork (Merchant) on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:26pm: Edit

To: Seltorian Commander, Amarillo SectorFrom: Agent SaphirreRe: Spare Parts/Rebel Infestation

I have passed your request for parts and assistance to localsector commander who is sympathetic to your plight. He wouldlike to make a request in lieu of payment (since you do notcarry local currency or anything valuable). If you coulderadicate a few cells of Rebels in the area who forment dissentagainst the rightful reign of the Empire, starting with the entireplanet of California. The Empire would be extremely gratefuland more than happy to help you on your journey to this "MilkyWay" galaxy. Do not worry about fallout from your methods,California is not that important anyway.

END TRANSMISSION

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:41pm: Edit

And this has WHAT to do with tactics?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, March 04, 2002 -10:50 pm: Edit

Depends on your point of view? ANything is possible,depending on a certain point of view

Topic spillover, I love it.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, March 04, 2002 -10:51 pm: Edit

OK, Selt tactic:

Cower and hide while we find the can 'o RAID.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Tuesday, March 05,2002 - 12:01 am: Edit

Rus - I'm too lazy. Does this actually decode to anything?

By Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) on Tuesday, March 05, 2002- 12:47 am: Edit

Yes. www.rot13.com will help.

My question is, why is the Selt National Insignia a "fist crushinga web"? Bugs don't have fists!

By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) on Tuesday, March 05, 2002- 02:59 am: Edit

Jonathan,Piotr is right on on this one.

By Rus Lender-Lundak (Rusman) on Wednesday, March 06,2002 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Hey,whats that up in the sky over California?It looks like some sort of extra galactic ship!!!

Its got two large boom like sections portruding from the front.

Wait!!! its doing something....

ZAP ZAP BZORT THWIPP FRACK ZAP ZAP...

AAARRRGGHHH *

*(Running for life from multiple rapid firing beam type weapons)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002- 03:25 pm: Edit

Quick, find the giant Fly-swatter.......WHAT DO YOU MEANTHEY ARE ALL IN TEXAS???!!!

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 -03:56 pm: Edit

Zrffntr gb Vzcrevny pbzznaq:Sebz Cevfba Jneqra Fgbexyvtugre,ALP ertvba:

V unir znantrq gb gevpx gur xabja Erory gnggyrgnyr Beovfvagb erirnyvat ubj gboernx Erory rapelcgvba zrgubqf. Hfvat guvf qngn, jr pna abjnpprff iveghnyylnyy bs gur Eroryf cevingr pbzzhavpngvbaf naq svaq bhg gurveqrrcrfg frpergf.

Nyfb, Erory Ntrag Ehfzna vf pheeragyl ba gur ynz. Cyrnfr jneanyy Vzcrevnyfgngvbaf jvguva 100 cnefrpf gb jngpu bhg sbe uvz.

Cevfbare Psnag pnaabg pbagvahr orvat fhowrpgrq gbvagreebtngvba ng guvf gvzrqhr gb uvf fhssrevat sezb qryhfvbaf bs ohtf naq Grknf syl-fjnggref, jungriregubfr ner.

Nf V tnva zber qngn V jvyy xrrc lbh vasbezrq.

Cevfba Jneqra:Revp FgbexyvtugreBHG.


Hey Wait!!!!

There's another one!!!

And another one!


And yet another one....

Look there's two more!!


How do they breed so many crews for all these ships?

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 -04:20 pm: Edit

Oriental man from old 70s commercial: Ancient Chinesesecret.

Oriental woman from old 70s commercial: Here's his ancientChinese secret - CALGON!

By Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) on Thursday, March 07, 2002- 01:53 am: Edit

I have managed to trick the known Rebel tattletale Orbis intorevealing how to break Rebel encryption methods

TRICK!?? You mean that diamond the size of my head wasnothing but Cubic Zirconium??? Waaaaah! And I already gaveit to Lord Hutt for his birthday! I'm dead meat!

*looks around in a panic* *suddenly, a large shadow loomsoverhead* *looks up* *change camera angle, showing agigantic flyswatter coming down with a horrible wet smack**fade to black*

By mike mendick (Mikey2) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 -03:59 pm: Edit

I have been forced to play the tourney selto (random selectionof ships) in several of my most recent matches.

found its not quite as bad as I had thought:

sheild crackers are basically disruptors you can hold for free,and the selt is the only tourney ship that can charge standardloads and then use batteries to overload all 4. The phasers aregreat, hetting at 28 messes with peoples heads. I'd say if itweren't for the 12 impulse delay for firing PCs over a turnbreak, it would be a fairly decent ship.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 -05:29 pm: Edit

Mike: Remember that the PCs aren't even a secondaryweapon. The 8 P1s are your primary weapons, followed by theSCs. If you have power after moving and arming thoseweapons, then you can think about rearming the PCs. Ofcourse, you can also park and have lots of power for arming.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 -06:29 pm: Edit

Yeah the Selt has some bonuses, but still a lot of downfalls:Turn mode D, no seekers, normal seeking defense, and itsPC's and SCs only hit on 1-3 a lot of the time.Nothing Huge but still there are negatives.


As I've been saying for some time, the Selt is very underratedimo. Not stellar by any means, but it gets way too muchbadpress.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 11:44 am:Edit

Seems like in a small fleet action, you should plan on takingover one of the enemys ships. Every ship the selts hav has lotsof BPs and transporters. Biggest problem is the energy drainon PC capicitors is so high. (Holding fusions is as efficient,photons and plasma much more so.)

By Evan Honer (Parafighter) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 -07:51 pm: Edit

I`m wondering what tactics would a Seltorian CA use against aAndromedan INT (empty hangar bay)?

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 -08:48 pm: Edit

Since the Selt is overmatched by over 80% and cannotrealistically expect to penetrate the forward PA panels, the onlyreal option I see is to disengage. If you have a DN instead, oradd a CL to the force, then you may have some possibilities.The best tactic in that case may be to put up a big brick, try tokeep it facing the Ando, take his first shot and then startsandpapering the rear PA panels with single PC shots, pairs ofSC shots in narrow salvo, and single or paired P1s. Theintention is to badly degrade the rear PA panels so that youcan eventually penetrate them.

===============================================

JINDARIAN TACTICS

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 10:38pm: Edit

Crap! I've got a problem. I'm playing a game tomorrow againsta guy that loves Jindos...and I've never played 'em. Don't evenown the book, in fact. I'm playing a klingon; so, WHAT DO IDO!!!!

Seriously, is there something I shouldn't do? Do the standardklingon tactics work on these guys?

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 01:25am: Edit

I hope you have a significant BPV advantage. Jindarians haveBPV that are slightly below what my play indicates they areworth and they are different enough to be hard to figure out ina first game.

Do not attempt to stay at range 15. Jindarian rail-gunsoutperform disruptors in the middle ranges where disruptorsshine. The Jind CL (rated at 135 BPV) averages 22 points ofdamage for 9 power every turn which out does the 8 points ofdamage from 4 disruptors on an equivalent value cruiser.

Do not attempt massive drone swarms all hitting the target atone time. Jindarians have large shuttle contingents for use asWild Weasels. Plus, the Jindarians have a defense mode onthe larger ships which fire for 8 impulses and have a chance to

kill any shuttle or drone within 4 hexes. Spread out your dronesas much as possible.

Do not agree to play in an asteroid field. Many special rulesgive the Jindarian absurd advantages within that terrain.

Beyond that, it depends on which Jindarian forces youropponent has chosen.

The smaller metal hulled ships have thick shields, goodphaser-1 suites, and dispersed heavy weapons. Take a look atthe SSD but using tactics similar to those used against pre-web caster Tholians are probably a good starting place.

The large Jindarian ships are tackled like bases. Thick belts ofarmor make getting internals a lengthy process. These haverelatively few phasers so WRGs will fire on drones instead ofyour ships. Divert fire away from you, overload, and punchthrough.

Medium Jindarians (like the Jindo TC) have the agility andlayout and dance style tactics of the smaller Jindarians but alsocan fire their rail guns defensively like the big ships. Only alimited number of densive shots which is still more than thelimited number of drone swarms the Klingon can put together.Best tactic against these is to hope the Jindarian makes somebad rolls on critical defensive firing.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 11:37 pm:Edit

You'll likely be forced into a base assault as he cant play therun n gun game like you can (with limited arcs). So bring asmuch direct firepower as you can.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 07:40am: Edit

Well, the game is over. Technically, I won, but it was a pyrhicvictory at best. I really loathe that defensive rail gun thing,though. If it weren't for a few very lucky shots, I'd probablyhave lost. Richard, thanks for the tips...you're right on track.

By Roch Chartrand (Rochc) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 -02:41 pm: Edit

Hi,

I'm looking for advice, I have a combat soon against Jindarianof roughly 400Bpv. I fly a Romulan NHK, SEC & KRT.

Thanks

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 -03:24 pm: Edit

Heheh.......

Cloak and pray.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 03:39pm: Edit

It dpends a lot on if the Jindos are taking a rock ship or not.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 06:33pm: Edit

The Exact type of ships make a big difference. Versus theJindarian. Even more so than most other races.

Against Rock ships Piecemeal launch them. So they wont drawa WW. The Rocks will probably be going slow enough that theywont have to ED to WW. So they will probably use either theinadequate Phasers defensively Or thier WRG's which youhope and pray for. Becase they arent shooting at you. Simplypick a quadrant of the ship and just keep hammering at it untilyou kill off his WRGs in that arc. Then he's a dead duck.

Against the Metal ships he has the speed and manuverabilityto handle running out your plasma.Use std plasma tactics as long as you understand not to forcehim into using his MRG's defensively.

Jindarian Plasma Tactics come down to what WRG yourfacing.

Heavy WRG's Are the bain of Plasma torps. Because they areonly mounted on ships with Unlimited ammo for Defensive use.Also the Heavy can reach out and touch you hard at any rangeaccurately. In other words dont depend on EW or Cloak tokeep from getting hit by them as you reload.

MRG's You can draw out his ammo just like you would WW's.Just be warned that he can do both pretty well.

LRG's You can use EW to great effect vs these. they arelimited to R10 max and can not fire defensively.

If your trying to draw out his ammo on his Metal ships arrangefor your plasma to just be entering attack range near the Tbreak. It will force him to choose on firing defensively or takethe hit to keep from firing over the T break. (Dont have theWRG rules handy at the moment. I misplaced F1) IIRC if theWRG fires over the Turn break in defensive mode that meansit cant fire again. On the New T.

**Defensive fire lets a Heavy/Medium WRG do 1-6 pts ofdamage to everything shuttle size and smaller at a R4 or lessfor 4 or 8 IMP. Cant remember which right now.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Friday, July 05, 2002 -08:59 am: Edit

And just tell us you aren't fighting him on an asteroid map...

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 10:30am: Edit

If you are just Self Destruct your ships and look on it as a winin Mental Health Otherwise your Stress level will go throughthe roof.

===============================================

VUDAR TACTICS------------------------------------------------------------------------By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 -11:01 am: Edit

Repost of previous messages=====by Mike Raper Monday, February 04, 2002 - 6:19 pmAfter reading lots of posts, it's pretty clear there are some trueSFB pros on this board. So, I was wondering if anybody hasany really stellar tactics for the Vudar. I've been toying withthem some, though nothing serious yet. My first real conclusionis that against the Klingons (a natural game opponent), if youloose your IPG's, you're basically toast. Anyone have anythoughts?=====by Nick Blank Monday, February 04, 2002 - 6:43 pm

Mike, I haven't tried the Vudar yet, but have you seen thechanges in CL#20?The Ion Cannons now require two pts of power (the first pointeither warp OR impulse, the second point any source) on eachof two turns.Overloads are three points (the first two points either warp ORimpulse, the third any source) on each of two turns.IPGs still require impulse power.This is supposed to help them when they lose their impulseengines, as the earlier ion capacitor solution was very brokenand was removed.I don't know what to suggest after losing your IPGs though, as Ihaven't tried to play them much yet.=====by Mike Raper Monday, February 04, 2002 - 7:37 pmNick,That's good to know. Just by sort of looking, it did seem thatthe Vudar would be short on firepower because of thedependence on Impulse energy. I considered making theirAPR a sort of "AIR" like the feds do with AWR. I kind of thoughtthat was in keeping with the Vudar dependence on impulseand ion power. Should be interesting...=====by Richard Wells Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 3:04 amMike: APR may last slightly longer than Impulse but unless youplan on adding AIRs to the ships; the effect will be the same.Convert 2 Impulse to AIR and the Vudar can expect to loseboth Impulse and AIR in the same number of internals aslosing the original Impulse took.Losing the IPG and most of the impulse is a problem. TheVudar can still do well even after that. Consider using Lyranstyle tactics for the Vudar ship. Lyran's rarely recharge ESGsand have similar phaser suites. Pure phaser defense tacticshave some merit. Ideally, the IPGs should have been tradedfor about half the Klingon drones.=====by Mike Raper Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 7:00 amRichard,Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a try and we'll see how it goes.As for the adding "AIR" to Vudar ships, it's more aesthetic thananything else. Rather than changing the arming rules for IonCannons, which reflected the Vudar use and dependence onion power, I just thought that if there were a power supplyproblem that adding a specialized APR for the Vudar wouldhave the same effectt as adding AWR for the feds. It's sort ofthe same problem, really. The feds need the warp power forphotons, so why not use the same formula for the Vudar? Justa thought. I know it would be damaged just as quickly, but itwould be a neat addition.I'm still considering the best way to use Ion cannons. Theystrike me as sort of a weaker version of the photon (i.e., nodamage reduction, two turns to arm) but with some disruptorlike properties. Proximities look pretty useless, unless you'remounting scads of them. In a fleet action it may pay off to massfires on one target from range 15 or so, but one on one I thinkit won't work too well.=====by Geoff Conn Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 2:53 pmIon Cannons have wicked overloads and a range advantage atr.5 iirc. That's what you use to your advantage.Then switch on the ipg for your getaway. Which currently canstill be done during the firestep which is another advantage.(Message edited by talonz on February 05, 2002)=====by Mike Raper (Raperm) Monday, February 11, 2002 - 11:47amTried the Vudar out this weekend, using SVC's proposed IonConverter rule. BIG help. It gives the Vudar player a muchbetter chance to stay in the fight, especially if he starts atWSIII. With the small amounts of hull they have, they startloosing impulse engines in a hurry, so this ability to convertwarp energy to ion energy is a great addition. That being said,

Geoff is dead right. Blast away with Ion Cannons, crank up theIPG and get away. Works like a champ.=====by Nick Blank (Nickb) Monday, February 11, 2002 - 12:35 pmUm, unfortunately (or fortunately?) the ion capacitor thingy(from CL#19) was judged way too powerful and is no longerbeing considered, as per CL#20. Instead see my post fromfurther up on the new arming costs for Ion Cannons. I believethat is the current rule for playtesting.=====by Jim Davies (Mudfoot) Monday, February 11, 2002 - 6:05 pmThis is why the Vudar are going nowhere. Nobody is sure whatthe rules are...=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 3:38 pmLast update was no ion capacitor, no ion requirment for armingion cannons either.CL21(?)=====by Nick Blank (Nickb) Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 5:48 pmI explained the new requirements farther up this topic. Theyare in CL#20, page 34.The two energy points each turn of a standard shot must be 1pt any source, and 1 point either impulse or warp.The three points each turn for an overload shot must be 1 ptany source, and two points either impulse or warp.IPGs are unchanged (still require impulse power), and there isno ionic capacitor (just forget that any such thing was everproposed). Everything else should be unchaged from what is inP6, which is where all the Vudar rules are.=====

===============================================

SCENARIO TACTICSBy James Cain (Jcain) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 09:02 pm:Edit

In SH204 "Death of the Star Cougar", if the Klingon scattersthe convoy as suggested under the SH204.8 Tactics note, cananyone tell me of a Federation tactic that can win?

It seems to me that the Fed. must go after the two F-TS atspeed 31 first so they cannot get too far away. (Remember,they can disengage by acceleration on turn 4 if they are notstopped before then.) By the time the Fed. gets done withthem, though, the other targets will be waiting at thereinforcement arrival points. The Klingon can then tow the SAFfreighters with warships to allow them to disengage by distancein three different directions! The Fed. could try to kill the non-troop freighters with scatter packs and rack launched drones,but the G2's can block that tactic.

So, is the only winning Fed. tactic to find a Kling willing toignore the scenario tactics advice by star-castleing?

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 -10:37 pm: Edit

CAPTAIN'S GAME

{This isn't really tactics - but I couldn't find anywhere else toplace this}

Anyone have experience with the various flavours of CaptainsGames? (Captains, Frigate Captains, X-Ship Captains, SurveyCaptains)

What worked? What didn't? What was fun? What wasn't?

Reason I ask is I'm about to start some flavour of CaptainsGame via PBEM and thought I would collect wisdom beforedoing so.

Cat.

By Mike Fannin (Daelin) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:17 pm:Edit

Is the scenario 'The First of its Kind' (SG11, I think), meant tobe fair and balanced as written? I just tried to play it out againstmy normal opponent and by the time the fight was over(midway through turn 2 he conceded), we were both of theopinion that the defender is in a really, really bad situation.

He was playing the Feds, with the F-BS, F-FRD, F-DN (ha!),and a F-FF. I came in with a D7C, D6D, and D6M. At weaponstatus three, I had a couple of scatterpacks loaded and hadpre-launched 4 I-M drones. Coming at at speed 14 from the'bottom', I was able to get all of my ships in close range, hiddenbehind the planet, and devestate the FRD with drone wavesthat it couldn't stop. The base station was only useful becauseADD's don't take power...it sure wasn't doing much on it's own.The frigate was largely ignored after I dropped 2 drones and acouple of phasers on it and stripped most of it's guns.

By the midpoint of turn 2, I'd popped the FRD and had the DNin a tractor beam. I could, at that point, have captured ordestroyed it at my leisure, so he conceeded.

What did we miss? What miracle of die rolling would haveallowed him to keep the FRD from being trashed? It -looks- likea hopeless fight unless the defenders are Rom's.

Should the base and FRD have been allowed augmentationmodules? I would have thought that would've been stated. Itwould have helped some.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:22 pm:Edit

They may be able to buy augmentation modules with theirCommander's Option points. I'm surprised your drone wavewasn't wiped out by several T-bombs.

The other part is that your fleet is extremely optimized. 3criusers and all specialist ships at that. Double check S8.0 thatall the ships have their required consorts (I don't recall if theflagship or scouts can act as the mauler's consorts and viceversa for the drone ship).

By Mike Fannin (Daelin) on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 08:34am: Edit

They were specialist ships, but S8 doesn't appear to haveanything to say on the subject. There can be only onemauler...there can be only one DB ship (per three ships), therecan only be one leader per squadron. I complied with all ofthat.

No..he didn't buy t-bombs. Not sure why, but I don't think itwould have made that much of a difference. The drones didn'thit anything until after the D7 and mauler had opened up atrange 2 and 3, respectively.

I believe that there were some tactical mistakes made...but Ialso think that if I'd played the other side, I couldn't have lastedmore than a turn or so longer...not against a force like that.

By Stanley Kolakowski (Eurthyr) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 -08:27 pm: Edit

Well, in addition to tactical mistakes, there's a question of fleetdesign I think needs to be looked at.

First off, without player agreement to a different year, thescenerio defaults to Y167, or could be different based on thedefending DN selected (SG11.44 says refit availability is basedon the year in service of the defending DN, which, using thegeneric Fed DN, would be 152.)

Either way, based on what's written above (going "as written"where the default year is 167), the D6M is not legitimate as ithas a YIS of 168, at least 1 year later than the scenerio is setto be run in.

Also, going with strict interpretation of the rules, the fleet isillegal as there is a hard limit of 400 BPV alloted to the fleet,which includes drone speed costs.Since the D7C and D6D use B racks, and all drones aremedium speed 20 types, there's a base cost of 3 BPV per rackstrictly for speed upgrades. So, if one were to do all theapplicable math:D7C - 139Drones +6D6D - 113Drones+18D6M - 125Total 401

So, yeah, in this case as presented, I can see the Fed having ahard time... And I was looking, I think there's no way to get theD6D without either giving up the D7C or taking a D5 (ifavailable) as the 3rd ship...

By Mike Fannin (Daelin) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 09:07pm: Edit

Hmm.

At the time of play, I did not see/read the line that indicated alldrones must be spd 20. The D7C had loaded several spots init's two racks with spd 8 drones, knowing that these would beused only when close to the target. Presumably that's not legal.

But I do have to claim a serious faux pas on the D6M. I must'velooked over the MSC a dozen times and was convinced untilyou said something that it had a YIS of 167. My fleet choicewould have probably included a straight D6 if I had caughtthese two points, but I still do not believe that it would havemade that much of a difference.

Consider a Romulan fleet with one or two K7R and/or WE.There would not be any WW available, and nothing that theFRD could do to stop several hundred points of envelopedplasma bearing down on itself. This is going to happen on turn1, and the DN is only halfway done repairing 4 boxes of warp.

IMO, there is something wrong with the scenerio. Despite myinitial reading mistakes.

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 -09:53 pm: Edit

In my experience ANY scenario where one side starts at WS-0is broken (Kroal's illegitimate war in S1 is another example).When you are at slow speed, facing a seeking weapon race,without weasels you're dead. At WS-0 the Feds can't fireANYTHING the first turn (phasers still warming, the rest aretwo turn weapons).

So you have to tweak things to help - increase the startingrange, the Feds starting WS, give the FRD some hangar bay

modules (but unless the fighters start loaded they won't helpmuch), decrease the BPV for the attackers.

As for the drone point problem - just take a couple of type IV'sinstead of type I's - you'll shave off a few points that way.

By Mike Fannin (Daelin) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 07:24am: Edit

I agree, David, with the WS comment, and I suspect that's oneof the reasons that the fight felt so unbalanced. It didn't helpthat the defending station was a BS and didn't even haveenough available power to charge it's phasers.

OK..let's put it in realistic terms. A BS has 2 scoutchannels...how could it not have seen 3 klingon ships comingin, armed, far enough away to have started repairs on the DNsooner? Or who needs to be shot for not calling red alert? Afterall, the very first DN was supposed to be there...a little bit ofoperational security would have been required, even for theFeds.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 -08:41 am: Edit

Mike the obvious answer is, that the guy who was supposed tohit the Red Alert button. Was off taking a new "SensitivityTraining" course.

And the guy manning the button was the idiot nephew of theunion shop steward. He was taking an unscheduled coffebreak (Double Mocha Caffee Lattee.)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 09:55am: Edit

Unless the scenario rules specifically state that you can't takeslow drones then it would be legal to do so (FD2.454).Likewise the D6M could slide in under the prototype rule if bothplayers agree.

By Mike Fannin (Daelin) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 10:33am: Edit

The D6M was a mistake, but he didn't have a specific problemwith it, except to indicate that he felt it was overkill.

My personal feeling is that the base, at least, should have beenWS 2 or 3 and that a few turns of repair should have beencompleted on the DN. A power module would help the base alot. Any or all that and the 400 points for attackers wouldn't beso out of line.

But, as written, like David said, without -something- to offsetthe seeking weapons, the FRD seems to be little more than abig target.

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 -09:49 pm: Edit

Mike: Perhaps the best answer is this: Look in the 'balance'and 'variations' sections of that scenario, choose some youBOTH think would make it more fun, SWAP SIDES and play itagain.

You'll have fun and gain experience at scenario design all atthe same time!

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 10:33pm: Edit

Actually, the Feds can fire shuttle and fighter phasers on thefirst turn and can place T-bombs. I don't know if that is enoughto survive, but...

I had misremembered S8, I thought (S8.43) said the ships maynot be fulfilling other roles (and likewise for the drone ships).Sorry about that.

It would be interesting if a fleet of D7B, F5C, F5, E4 could dothe job (I think that's the right ballpark for BPV). This would bea more "standard" fleet for the mission.

By Stanley Kolakowski (Eurthyr) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 -07:42 am: Edit

David;Scenerio specifically calls for "3 size class 3 ships whose (etcetc...)"

Mike: I re-read the SG11 rules (again). According to my '99 AMedition rules, only the DN is at WS0, the rest of the defendingunits are at WS1. Phaser caps are charged, just need to feedthem.

So, there's some life here in the dock. Maybe not enough tostand plasma, but enough to maybe put a dent in dronewaves...

Also, the base has 2 scout channels. EW (if used) and/or theability to distract units could make a mess of things. To wit:

Draw off seeking units. May not be good if distracting individualdrones, but pulling a seeking scatterpack with a late blossomtime could delay the drones impact, if not completely draw itoff.

Gamble on a lucky die roll. 1 power gives 3 50% chances topop a drone / seeking shuttle within 15 hexes dead in it'stracks. One can hope for good die rolls. Nothing like an inertseeking scatterpack, eh?

If the base station has enough power (yeah, right... ), andECM's in play, feed some to the FRD. 6 self-generated by thedock, 6 lent by base, and 6 O-EM to the biggest threat shipmeans a -3 to a -4 shift from at least 1 attacking ship, and a -2to -3 shift from the rest. As ECM either slows the ships down(ECCM) or lowers the damage ratio, that could be the best 14base power spent. Slowed targets are within photon / phaser 4range for turn 2 (not hiding behind planet), or the damage isreduced, quite possibly significantly (anywhere from 25% to50+% depending on die rolls / range of attack)

Other strategies if you can get there in time are to have the FFrun, tractor, then death-drag the scatterpack-shuttles (chargeof the light brigade anyone?). You have phasers, as long asyou pay their power cost, so you could theoretically shootdown a bunch of drones. Heck, if they're all type-Is, firing themas ph-3s could save some power...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 -05:05 pm: Edit

(SH206.0) RACE TO OBLIVION

Has anyone made it past the second map? We've played it afew times (the last time with random Omegan DNs), and itseems the game is always decided by the time someonemakes it to the minefield gap.

By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Monday, July 08, 2002 - 06:21pm: Edit

SH186 Klingons Make Lousy Farmers

We played this scenario on Saturday, and found it to bebroken. The Alliance has a total cakewalk. The Klingon playercan make prisoner recovery slower and more expensive by anearly withdrawal to the Remote region of each hexside ratherthan fighting to the death at each GCL, but since the Alliancecan easily defeat all Klingon space forces and has more thanenough BP to absorb all losses Klingon ground troops canexpect to inflict, the final outcome is never in doubt.

To fix this scenario, I suggest the following:

(1) The space battle must in the end favor the Klingons, puttingthe Alliance on a clock. As written the Alliance has a FedNCL+, DDG+, and a Kzinti MTT (counting only the ships withheavy weapons). The Klingons have 3 G2s at WS0 speed 0 tostart; these are trivially forced to disengage or be destroyed bythe end of turn 2. On turn 5 a D5H with cargo pod arrives,speed max WS3, however it cannot disengage until gaining 25points of lab info on the planet. Limited to speed 25 by the podand forced to come to about range 5 of the planet (20 pointsfrom probe, die roll for labs), it will die or be captured by theend of turn six, doing little damage in return. Finally, a F5C, 2F5B (in Y179 still missing K-refits...) arrive on turn 9. Variouschoices can make the Alliance weaker and/or Klinks stronger.WS2 for the G2s and SAMS allow scatterpack launches (andthe SAMS to defend itself with its pair of ph2 and ph3) on turn1. Faster starting speed (even speed 5 or so) would keep theG2s out of deadly range of the Feds on turn 1, though it ishighly unlikely that any will still be on map at turn 5 regardless.The Kzinti MTT (and the troop pod it drops on a hexside) mustbe replaced by a second MCG or similarly poorly armed ship.The wave of speed 32 drones the present Alliance can sendagainst the D5H is unstoppable. The rescue squadron shouldbe FWL with 2 F5WK, or the Fed NCL should drop to a DW orthereabouts.

(2) Ground combat - the fact that two of the three Alliancetroop units can land on the planet (FTR and Zin troop pod)allow for fast and easy GCL captures. The above MTT+TP forMGC #2 swap would help with this, and perhaps dropping theFTR for a F-TS would be appropriate to force all landings tocome by way of shuttles and transporters. To keep the numberof Alliance BP under control, the F-TS could be half (or more)empty to allow room for the rescued prisoners.

Btw, for those who are interested in this kind of thing, I haveconstructed a scenario index listing name, number, number ofplayers, races involved, and whatever comments(good/bad/broken/whatever) I've found from my ownexperience or read about here. You can find it here. Commentsand additions are always welcome! I don't have R1-3, R5, C3-4, J1, K, X1, or CapLogs.

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Tuesday, July 09,2002 - 12:39 am: Edit

I played the Kzinti in Saturday's game, and I whole heartidlyagree with Justin. Me and my ally had a rediculously easy timeof it. Admittedly it's pretty apparent that the emphasis of thescenario is supposed to be the planetary battle between thearmies, but even that (as Justin pointed out) is easily done asthe Kzinti and Fed player can land on different Hex facings,cutting down on the time it takes to invade and rescue theprisoners.

I would suggest adding defense satillites and/or a ground baseor two. I would also upgun the reinforcements and alsosuggest that the ground combat rules be tweaked some. Oneof the frustrating things I found with the ground combat ruleswere the fact that I could only support my troops with

Transporter Artillery. I imagine this should go on anotherthread (perhaps the proposal thread) but I think both fightersand starships should play more of a factor with their weaponsthan is allowed.

I think a time limit is a good idea. Say ten turns, as it thenforces the alliance player to comit an invasion via transporter atone point, as opposed to constantly moving their FT and TroopCarrier pod to each hex facing, and making an easy win foreach surface action.

I also have qualms with the G-2s at WS-0. Maybe they couldbe given WS-1 or 2? Otherwise, as Justin pointed out, they'reeasily dispatched or driven off.

Myself, I enjoyed all the boarding action that took place. But Ihave to admit that some more advanced and better flushed outrules are needed.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 02:13 am:Edit

Fighters already have the ability to participate in groundcombat (D15.44) and with a pair of ground combat pods arequite dangerous. Ships can give boni to S&D missions. I'm notsure I'd want them to be otherwise able to participate (it wouldbe likely to make the actual ground combat forces irrelevant).

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Tuesday, July 09,2002 - 02:20 am: Edit

What I meant to say is they should be able to participatewithout special attack pods. To me that's just common sense.Maybe they get some kind of negative modifier or something. Ishould add that no fighters were in this scenario, but we didhave shuttles; Admins, HTAS, and GAS.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 10:37 pm:Edit

Fighters don't need ground pods to participate.

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Wednesday, July10, 2002 - 12:56 am: Edit

I didn't know that. The way Justin explained it last Saturday Iwas under the impression they couldn't. But it sounds like myown selective hearing at work again. Modual M is the one SFBmodual I don't have, although I may invest in it after lastweekends game.

In any event, I think the scenario we played needs a majorrewrite.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 01:06am: Edit

P.S. Almost all types of shuttles can participate directly bylanding at the GCL.

Yeah, it does sound like the scenario needs some rework. Ihave very mixed feelings on Module M (I have it but only at apoint when I had extra cash). Parts of it are very interesting(the ground combat and all the troup ships). But the advancedship combat just doesn't seem to work well (and uses up a verylarge part of the book with the ship diagrams).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 -03:32 am: Edit

The scenario actually hinges on how the prisoners are locatedin the remote areas. If I remember right, when my group played

it, S&D raids had to be used. If the S&D force was large, theyencounted prisoners (average of 3 per mission). When a smallforce when out, then the Klingons would intercept and kill thesearching force. Kill the shuttles, prevent a ship in orbit fromgenerating its bonus, and the Alliance forces have a long, longsearch to recover most of the prisoners. Keep the D5G aliveand the prisoners that can't be located can give the Klingonenough of boost to win.

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Wednesday, July10, 2002 - 12:22 pm: Edit

I remember the reference to a S&D tactic, but the scenario(from what I recall) didn't orbit that aspect. It was more or lessdefeat the ground forces and find the prisoners; something like2D6 prisoners were recovered for every friendly BP on ahexside (with appropiate bonuses for shuttles helping in thesearch). We may have been reading the scenario wrong. Idon't know. But there seemed to be an awful lot of it dedicatedtowards fighting over the planet in a traditional ground action;armies, tanks, attack craft and so forth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 -05:43 pm: Edit

Sorry George, I may not have explained very well sincenobody had fighters. Fighters count as 1 point for groundcombat (presumably these ground attack pods add more,though I have no clue how much). Compared to an admingiving 2 or a GAS giving 4, that's pretty weak IMHO.

Richard, part of the problem was that I (the Klingon) did notrealize until after the game that my BP and GCV could retreatinto the remote areas, so I fought to the death at the GCLs.Then with nothing but prisoners in the remote areas theAlliance designates each shuttle, GCV, and if desired each BPas a S&D mission, and rescues 2d6 prisoners with eachmission that makes contact. Perhaps I completely misread theS&D rules, this is the first time we've played with groundcombat. Regardless, if the Alliance has unlimited time to doS&D missions, and they do in the scenario as written since theKlingons can never drive the Alliance ships away from theplanet, it doesn't really matter how many or few prisoners theyrescue each turn. They'll get them all in the end.

How do you think can the D5H be kept alive? I absolutelyguarantee that any Alliance player will kill or capture it by theend of turn 6. It's on a fixed map from which it cannotdisengage without the lab info. If it keeps the pod, it movesspeed 25 max and will be murdered by fast drones and rundown by the Alliance warships - this is what actually happened.On a lab die roll of 1 I might have had a chance of disengagingit on turn 6, but there were 20 Alliance marines on boardalready controlling half the control spaces anyway... If it dropsthe pod, it must start at speed 1 or 0, so at least it could weaselaway any drones but the warships have an even easier timecatching it and mugging it. Likewise, how can the Klingons doanything to prevent an Alliance ship from generating the orbitbonus?

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 02:42pm: Edit

Ground attack pods add 1 point per pod. (J11.34)

Check out (D15.7622) for how to reduce number of squadsfound.

I am not too sure on all the intricacies of preserving the D5H;several years have passed since I played the scenario. Thisdoes depend on what the G2 status is on arrival. Though I

would kick out the shuttles to head towards the planet. Theywill distract a little firepower or help on planet plus will gaininformation to preserve the option of disengaging.

"Likewise, how can the Klingons do anything to prevent anAlliance ship from generating the orbit bonus? "

You should have about 12 armed shuttles plus the bases.(That is if you purchased extra boarding parties for the G2 anddetached them and the G2s' shuttles to aid in planet defense.)Activate any of these phasers or use drone launches or anylong range fire to cause orbiting ship to take damage or fireweapons. Trading a shuttle for one turn of reduced detection isa good trade in this scenario. (Most of the time, it is a very verybad idea.)

The scenario is flawed and a bit of a snooze but not totally inneed of redesign. More some rough edges needed to bedetailed and victory conditions detailed.

By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 04:08pm: Edit

I see why we're viewing the situation so differently now. If youcan have G2s floating around all game, the scenario shouldwork much better. However, I can practically give a hex by hexprescription for how the G2s will die or be forced to disengageby the end of turn two. Turn 1 they can only move speed 10, sothey'll be near the far map edge even with a complete selloutstarting placement. The Fed warships start speed max. Ifmemory serves, both can go about 30 hexes holding fulloverloads, so they should be able to get range 4 shots if theytry. If all three G2s are in range and in arc (they could scatterand just get two of them mugged on turn 1), 2 OL photons and4 ph1 should do at least 30 damage to each, through 10-12point shields (don't remember exactly). On turn 2 the ph1 cycleand one way or the other there won't be much left of the G2force on map.

Interesting thought about the G2 shuttles, in hindsight thatwould have been a better plan. I hadn't worked through theabove "G2s are gonna die" logic before we played, so I wastrying to load them up for scatterpacks several turns later. Your12 shuttles above include the D5H shuttles, right? Base has 4,G2s have 3 total.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 04:36pm: Edit

The Agricultural Stations each have an Admin shuttle and aHTS, thus 6 of each in addition to the ones on the base andthe G2s.

By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 05:52pm: Edit

Ah, that would help the Klingons a lot! We couldn't find AgroStations and just assumed it was flavor text giving character tothe GCLs. No wonder the fight at the planet was so one-sided!

Thanks!

===============================================

FLEET TACTICS=====by Richard Sherman (Rich) Friday, June 08, 2001 - 6:28 pmWell, as I said, I personally do not like that particular role. But itfleet battles, it is absolutely vital. And our group does have aplayer who enjoys it (like you), and is VERY good at it.And yes, our group makes extensive use of computers,including EA, DAC, drone records, movement records,

recording weapons fire, etc. I personally do not use acomputer, but many of the my team-mates do.The funny thing when we play is that I'm usually faster withouta computer than they are with one. Strange.=====by Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 7:42pmPeople of our campaign group are getting waxed by our fedopponent who is ahead of most of the rest of the players intech. Each battle can have no more than 4 ships per side, asquadron of fighters counts as one, no PFs available (yet) dueto rule.He typically flies 3DDXs and 1SCX, closes to range eight,hoses (scratch one ship), rinse, repeat. It's been fairly flawlessso far. Other races are struggling to get to X and are facing thistactic repeatedly.Our fleet limitations (other than mentioned above), is one flagship, and two other ships of any SC (three if all three are thesame general hull type). There's reason for this that I won't gointo right now.Anyway, the Kzinti have X now, the ISC have X now but mostof all their fleets are non-x while the feds are nearly at 50%.Any ideas on how to effectively force the feds to use a differenttactic?=====by Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) Monday, January 28, 2002 -8:58 pmOh, man... this is where you all vote to introduce a new rule tothe campaign, namely that a sun-snake dives into the Fedhomeworld Sun.=====by Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) Monday, January 28, 2002 -9:07 pmHeh bribe him. []=====by Robert Cole (Zathras6) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 10:11pmGot Web?=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 3:21 amWhat other races are in your campaign, besides Fed, Kzin, andISC; and what is allowed as far as alliances go? Moreimportantly, is the Fed player allied to anyone, and, if so, towhom?=====by Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 3:44amFour players (game does not require moderator) and a 5thperson to control survey discoveries and fill in when needed.Each player picks two races (in a specific order designed forfairness).player 1: ISC and ROMplayer 2: Andro and WYNplayer 3: Fed and Gornplayer 4: Kzinti and HydranPlayer 1 has been using both races equally, first at X, Romsaround Y179player 2 roughly 70/30 first Andro Y188, WYN Y175player 3 100/0 Fed Y183, maybe higherplayer 4 roughly 50/50 Kzin at X, Hydran not quitePlease note: Andros had sacrificed navy size for tech to get toY188. Is currently building numbers but has fewest units of allplayers.As for alliances, well . . . we've seen a few backstabs already.=====by Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) Tuesday, January 29,2002 - 9:35 amCongratulate the Fed player on a job well done and start over?=====by Larry the Monarch in Exile (Hydrax25) Tuesday, January29, 2002 - 11:22 amGlenn,

you can't beat him tacitally.Everyone must gangrape him. The prolem is, the first guy in isgoing to get shreded.=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 12:14pmWhat about map size? I would just use larger units and takehis alphas and try to clean up what is left. ISC is best at this.Something like the DNP, ISC CX, CL , CAScout.Use the CX PPS every turn and use plasma to keep him awaywhile pounding on his ships. I mean DNP launches a pair ofS's at a single DDX with CL doing similiar and pounding allelse on the 3rd DDX(2 PPD's and 26 or so P1s plus bolted rearFs/Ls. As the CCX can fire every turn within 15 it should getbad for the FED quickly.After they attempt the 2nd pass you may be low on plasma butthen they are low on ships.KZIN can do the drone wave thing and concentrate fire on oneship, Again DNH, MCC, CCX, Full Scout.Use lots of tbombs for either to create mini minefields, stealany ECM drones he launches etc.For the Andro use all motherships, you kow dominatrix anddominator with a pair of anacondas.=====by Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 12:48pmOur fleet limitations (other than mentioned above), is one flagship, and two other ships of any SC (three if all three are thesame general hull typeSorry, Kerry, but your suggested squadrons get nixed by theircampaign rules. The only way the Fed has 4 ships is becausethey are all DDX variants.Probably Hydrans would have the best shot. 4 Iroquis wouldget 16 hellbore shots in on the ship with the lowest ECM. Half(or more, depending on the range) would be direct fired tochew up the shield, the other half would fire enveloped in thesecond hellbore stage.=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 1:37 pmActually, Kerry was on to something with his Andro force. Usea DMX with 2 EXPs and an MIS (I know you will be shy on EWsupport, but follow me on this). Your main tactic is to get toR12-13, and attempt to displace a DDX towards you, and theSCX away , if it is within R15 of you. If your dice do you well(you have nearly a 50-50 chance of something working right foryou) you will MAUL the DDX that got pulled up, while the SCXwill be unable to support it for 3 impulses. Rinse, and repeat,and you should have no more Fed problem in a few turns. Ifyou can, kill the SCX as soon as possible (this ship should beconsidered target #1)Now, you will need to keep your combat ships together, andthe MIS out of harms way, lending EW to whomever needs it.The DDXs should have REAL BIG problems punching throughthe DMX in a single turn at R8, so this will most likely be theEXPs. Also remember to use EM when necessary, as theywon't be able to keep up with ALL of the EW tricks Andros canpull. Since they no longer have overloadable P-1s, overruns ofslower ships will not hurt you as much (just make sure you'veremoved a good portion of their photons first).=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 2:00pmK I missed that then for ISC go with CCX,2CL,CLSKzin DNH, MCC,MC,MCS. Same thing but you miss a couplep3s in most cases(altohugh ISC ships get a little phaser weak).For the ISC you can even do the launch at r10 and declareerratics flushing his chances down the tubes(generating 6 lent5). And the CCX can have its 1 eccm to only have a 1 shift onits PPDs. Still it is affective and will make his fire ineffective.The KZI just has to launch a lot of drone which he can andmake the shot photons only of course the 6 hits will hurt, butwhatever is left can pounce on him next turn while he

reloads(reloads at spd 24 or so should be able to get anothershot in by plotting the fast spd for 8 imps).Is it foolproof, no. Will it make the fed watch himself more andmake a game out of it-yep.=====by Stephen Cobb (Ghengiskhabb) Tuesday, January 29, 2002- 2:25 pmAs the afore mentioned Fed player, thank you for yourcompliments. However, please don't help my opponents outtoo much. There are many things I am afraid of, and I don'twant my opponents to find out what they are.Per Kerry's fleet, I've seen bigger and survived (thrived)Hydran BB, + 3 kzin war cruisers, one of which was a leader,was the last battle. I even made a few big tactical errors andcame out pretty clean.The Fed's are just so simple to play as teams, and once youhave gobs of spare warp power (NCL's and X-DD's) you don'thave to be to bright to win with them.=====by Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 6:00pmSteve,There you are, my nemisis.Shame on you for spying in on my attempt to make my SFB lifeeasier. We are just simple admirals chit-chatting in a nice cozyenvironment.As it is, I misspoke (mistyped) the Andro fleet requirements.They are a little different. If the Andro has three ships, onemust be a sat ship. If there are four ships in a fleet, two mustbe sat ships. The other players were afraid that the Andros(using galactic fleet limitations) would be too much for them tobear.Economically speaking, it would be nigh impossible to get aDMX and 3 conquistor hull types in the same fleet for mygroups.Fortunately, the Feds and Andro's haven't tangled much(except for one horrible battle that I am currently suppressing).The Fed-X's (no, not the little tiny ship) are munching ISC,Romulan, Kzinti, Hydran so far. The Andro's are probably next.Perhaps the best fleet the Andro's could muster under theserules is the DMX, IMP, ANA, MAM (or even TERM).Someone mentioned displacing units away and units towardsthe Andros and blasting them. I did that on my one majorencounter had decent success. However, his ships did notblow up, all his photons stayed intact and I lost Two imposers. Ihad made some tactic errors despite my success with the disdev. In this battle, the 2xIMP fought against 4 NCLs. It shouldhave been a cake walk for the Imposers, or so I thought. Myoverconfidence killed me more than anything else.I do not believe that the Fed player (steve) is insurmountable. Itonly looks that way. :-)BTW, You're doing a great job, Steve.=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 6:33pmK andro actually is the easy one.DMX and DOM with one anaconda.just have the forward two come in against the feddies try to getr5 or closer(after taking his alpha- you take 130 points withoutblinking). Pound one ship to scrap with the 10 tr's. Next turnrun to reload and repeat.To be truely evil though do what I love to, wait til he closes andthen displace next to the SCX, wait 4 imps and blow it tosmithereens. then let the anaconda give you both 6 ecm andwatch his feddie try to hit through a 2 shift. Overrun his DD'swith phasers at r3.ISC has not done the PPD dance yet? If using mixed fleetsthen what about the ISC CCX and 3 FHK's. Let's see him try toget r8 at all. Also 33 P1's at r8 even with a shift can hurt.=====by Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 8:40pm

Kerry, no fleet can have more than one flag ship (i.e. SC2). SoDMX is the lone biggy in the group.As for displacing over the SCX, if I were the Feds, I'd have anHET ready for such a thing. I displace past them, he HET's andcough's up lots more than just 130pts on a rear end that cantake only 80. And I haven't even had a chance to fire yet. Notto mention, if both fleets are moving high speed 24 or faster(especially X can move 30 without sweating), 4 impulses isway too much time as the SCX would likely fly past you beforeyour sensors come back online. This is, of course, determinedby the actual distances between units, but for the most part,the SCX is not too distant (and to the rear) of the DDXs.For Andros, I feel the scattering dis dev is the best approach.For the other races mentioned above, they're having heeps oftrouble.To be honest, I'm surprised how effective the fed's tactic is. Beit luck, or errors on the opponents side, its just plain brutal.Sadly, while most of the (campaign legal) suggestions havebeen good, for the most part, they've been tried by one playeror the other. Maybe not with the exact ships, but certainly aclose proximity of them.If I've learned one thing, its that at least I haven't missedsomething. You guys have been very helpful. Alas, back to thedrawing board.Thanks to all.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 -10:56 am: Edit

Repost of Previous==========by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 9:31pmWell how are you limiting flagships?I was having the ANA as the flag, the other two are identicalhulls.... []Also the Rom can try the Flamehawk, and 3 FHK. just at r10nuke them.=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 10:06 pmThis is a strategic solution, but it is simple;be where he isn't.IOW, pin and then disengage from his forces with inferiorforces, and simply swamp his space with raiders, destroyinghis economic infrastructure. Eventually, you will be able toafford the losses it will take to beat those little X squads.=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 3:55amO.K., Glenn, I assume you are flting the Andro/WYN mix,correct? If so, here is what you need to go hunting Fed...DMX, IMP, ANA, ELM (or another ANA).Do everything you can to give your force the EW edge theyneed to avoid being hit, and to hit well (remember, you can,using 2 scout channels, loan 6 ECM AND 6 ECCM to a singleunit) (BTW, unkillable Andro squadrons are the reason I can'tplay them in our current campaign. Nobody can come up witha fleet big enough to beat what I can come up with in Andro,and now, as Kerry can atest to, people are complaining aboutmy Drex).Anyway(!), you have 13 TRHs, 32 P-2s, 4 (or 8) scoutchannels with POWER to run them, and (maybe) a REALLYbig mauler that you can use as an ad-hok energy module, onlybetter, as it will feed your opponents power back to them. Ifyou can, displace something in for the kill (9 TRHs anywhere inthe FH @ R8 = 94.5 damage on average), turn, run, andreload. Repeat until all enemy units die or disengage. If you getthe opportunity, snipe at weak or down enemy shields at rangewith (formerly off-side) TRHs, and phasers (TRHs do well outto 18 (3.17 per) and are marginal out to 25 (1 each)). With your

defences, you should be able to kill them before you get toseriously wounded. I hope this helps=====by Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) Wednesday, January 30, 2002 -5:18 amTim,I think I see your point on one issue (not to belate the others,only to single one out). I've been too aggressive in the past.What you just suggested is exactly what the fed suggests. Andit just might work if I don't get too greedy.One target only, peel off.Yes, thank you.And yes, I love the drex, too.=====by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Wednesday, January 30, 2002 -9:10 amTim as you know the only reason your andros do so well arebecause of many things:1. Fleet limitations for galactic to have 7 ships max and youhaving a full S8.0 fleet are not realistic.2. You flew against those that had no clue how to fly againstandros, I am more than happy to battle your andros any placeany time.3. Andros against full fleets die horribly- I am more than happyto show you that as well []4. I hopefully will battle your Drex in the campaign, as I ammore than happy to mix it up with them as well. Losing a D5 tofleet fire while doing minor internals to 3 ships is a fairexchange in my book especially when you would have lost 1 ormore to the r15 or closer fire the following turn(most likely a"fresh" ship as well).As you well know for both the DREX and ANDRO they have agreat inital alpha and power curve. After initial alphas areexchanged you have to be ready for a bath as you reload.The andro if he uses batts to do his attack runs finds that thoseships not fired on(as a galactic you only fire on 1) starve andthe one fired on takes internals and slows down to havingfewer warp. Each turn after that is a downward spiral.And you can bet your a** that any DMX that hits the boardagainst one of my fleets will have OEW on it every time, andmy ships will be running at least 4 ecm also []Also I do not even want to start talking about the affect an SFGhas on any of these []=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 1:45pmKerry,1) Andros use the same fleet rules as everyone else, inaddition to the 2 mothership rule (so, no, you can't have 2DOMs or DMXs)2) There ARE people down there (Erik and Bill, for example)who do know how to fight Andros that I have fought in the past.3) I have tried to play OpUnity, and found it HORRIBLYunbalanced against the Andros, so I already know what a2500-3000 BPV fleet will do to Andros (or anybody else, forthat matter). That is one of the reasons our fleet restrictions arethe way they are (besides, fleets that big take forever to playwith/against in battles).4) I'm still learning how to play the Drex Eriks' comments of ourbattle nonwithstanding, I will find out how to run those thingsproperlyAs for the rest, there are plenty of Andro "stupid power tricks"that anyone can use to play with their battery levels (who saysyou need to power your TRs EVERY turn, even when you'renot going to engage for a while). As for the Drex, they havepower problems to begin with, but their HCs damage rulessorta help to even that out, as does how HCs work in general.As for EW, why do you think I try to take 2 scouts with mewherever I go? Especially Andro scouts!And wasn't it you who said you didn't want to get into SFGrange against the Drex?=====

by kerry e mullan (Nomad) Wednesday, January 30, 2002 -5:08 pmWell that was to a full Drex fleet. After I have destroyed acouple destroyers and crippled a couple more I am more thanhappy to get there on your reload turn []The Drex have balance issues at particular ranges and most ofthem are bad for galactics, but if you know about the rangebrackets and can plan to fight in ones that are OK for you. Theproblem is keeping that range and not letting any closure. Noteasy to do for too long but it can be done.Also using your drones effectively helps(sorry I had a brainfreeze on the scatters [] ).=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 1:56 pmKerry, I wish I could use a full (S8.0) fleet of Drex, but I (likeeveryone else) have to live with our fleet size limitations. BTW,what reload turn? HCs can be fired every turnNow, why are you apologizing about the SPs? You made amistake, that's all. Everyone does on occasion, it's part of life(that also means you're human like the rest of us, which is agood thing ). You make mistakes, and, hopefully, learn fromthem. I made a few good ones myself (like not getting into agood firing solution on T2, instead of T3, for example), but I willlearn, and get over it=====

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 -06:16 pm: Edit

Hi,I don't understand why carrier groups devote so much of theirfirepower to anti-fighter work. Seems as though 2/3rds offighters are primarily anti-fighter. Then you must take a hugeBPV of escorts which also are primarily anti-fighter. This wouldbe great if you had to go up against an overwhelming force offighters.

Isn't it much more common for carrier groups to go up against"conventional" ships like a BCH-led fleet of war cruisers? Inwhich case a large fraction of those escorts and dogfightfighters would have been better spent on anti-ship heavyweapons?

Now if I'm the BCH/CW group, going up against a CV group,that's when I wish I could buy Aegis escorts ... because I knowI'm about to eat 144 drones. But I can't.

So why is the system backwards? Are carrier-versus-cruiserfights 10x less common that carrier-versus-carrier fights?Given what I recall of F&E that doesn't seem to be the case.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 -07:09 pm: Edit

In deep space, perhaps, but remember that much of the actionis around fixed defenses, all of which usually have fighters.And as you point out, the CV group does have enoughfirepower to be effective against regular fleets.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, November 22, 2002 -02:49 am: Edit

I'm with Dave on this one. If I've got a F/K/Z carrier group, it'sthe other guy that's going to have to worry about dronedefence. Removing Disruptors to add Ph-2 is just criminal :-)

(SPP: I'm still trying to write that article...)

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OMEGA TACTICSby Henry Meyer (Henry) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 1:01 pm

Darn My Socks! This is boring.So, does anybody have any thoughts on Vari PSTs? I haveone on anti-fighter use, but have to look at it in more detail thanlast time when I jumped the gun and looked like a dork.I haven't had time to playtest recently (other than a singleBorak Vs. Maesron game, from the SSJ area) and I'm moving -again, and losing the use of the internet in mid-February earlyMarch, so I'd like to post an update for the Vari Tactics still upat Omega U, drop some other stuff and try to get in CL one lasttime.HAAAALLLPP!=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 1:46 pmHenry, I haven't had much time to do things nyself (it's this littlecondition called making a living (why can't I be financiallyindependent?)). Whereas most companies in my line of workhave had people laid off for weeks on end, we NEEDED HELP!When they did lay off, it was for 2 days, and they won'tconsider doing it again (unless things go really bad). I'm STILLworking on stuff I started LAST YEARS (AHHHHRG :-().=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 3:05 pmWhat is a vari pst?=====by Nick Blank (Nickb) Monday, January 28, 2002 - 3:26 pmVari Particle Splitter Torpedo.A new plasma like weapon for the Vari, previewed in CL#23with ships that mount it, and will be officially published inOmega#4=====by Geoff Conn (Talonz) Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 10:12 pmAh..interesting. I guess I need cl 23 *sigh*=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 4:01amThat might helpA little run down for you. 2 turn arming. 3 "levels" of arming. All"levels" do 12xlevel in damage out to R8, after which they splitinto (level+1) torps of equal strength that MUST be targeted ondifferent units. Get CL23 for the complete rules write-up, as Ido want to avoid getting the powers that be mad at me forspilling too much=====by Paul J. West (Psi) Friday, February 01, 2002 - 2:28 pmAlso Henry you will enjoy the Vari-CC It is one heck-of-a ship.=====by Alex Chobot (Alendrel) Friday, February 01, 2002 - 2:59 pmAhhh, the Vari-CC is so studly.Vari beat down.=====by Henry Meyer (Henry) Friday, February 01, 2002 - 8:31 pmOOOOOH, Yeah!Same yard as the BW? Only way it could be better is to mountsome on a refitted BW...*drool*!=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 5:10 amHenry, how do you think that the Vari CC would do against theDNL/BCH I sent you a copy of (imagine it with a 1 MC and a"B" TM)?=====by Henry Meyer (Henry) Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 7:37pm*snort*I think it'd be toast in the time it takes to fire a salvo ofexplosive and 3 rounds of implosive, like your term paper said.Stay out of PP-1 range, and >>GAME OVER<<. If only theycould get a real phaser...=====by Tim Longacre Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 6:40 pmHenry, do you really think my design is that good, or am Ifooling myself?(Message edited by timl on February 03, 2002)

=====by Henry Meyer Monday, February 04, 2002 - 11:08 amOh, its in line with the Drex, I'd guess. Its just that the Drex arein a league by themselves in Omega... The HC explosive,enveloping and implosive options are hard to beat after theyget a crack in the shields to exploit, a lot like Hellbores.The SC options just make them more difficult to outmaneuver. Isuppose its possible to beat them, but then I prefer the weakerraces like the Vari and Hivers, and a lot of my wins are simplythe result of my opponent's mistakes.God, I hate fighting the Drex... If they go berserk like the Alphasector SCs did, their neighbors are gonna get slaughtered rightafter the Drexari. [:-(]=====

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 -12:56 pm: Edit

More lost messages restored=======================by Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 4:09pmThis post isn't specifically Omega, but I took a Drex BF in aFFA. My opponents were Alpha race ships. Most of the otherschose a cheaper hull type with officers. The terrain was aNebula.Incidently, I had enough points to get a Legendary Klingon . . .er, legendary Drex (whom I promptly named Bender). He wasvery successful.I wanted to point out that the Drex in this environment waspretty devestating. The HCH's hit quite well, the wide-bandphasers are quite resistant to the effects of EW, the drifts oftenassisted in bringing about un-fired HC's. I lost because I wasfinally gained up on by the surviving players. The smallerOmega ships do quite well against smaller Alpha ships.Any comments?=====by Alex Chobot (Alendrel) Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 4:40 pmWell, the smaller Drex do, but that's because they are special.Note that, with the minimum shields, you're vulnerbility todamage is grealt magnified, and Drex don't take damage allthat well. Not really a matter of losing weapons, but of losingthat precious precious power.=====by Tim Longacre (Timl) Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 5:43 pmActually, I've found that Drex ships, of any size, do quite wellvs. Alphan opponents. Their ability to move when nimble shipsmove, along with their innate ECCM (along with a -1 on dierolls if you have an EW advantage) tend to make them quitepowerful on the offensive. The other thing is that, in a nebula,you can STILL hit very well, and enveloping rounds are quitelethal against minimum shielding.BTW, I know what it's like to have people gang up on you whenin the Drex. Several months ago, we played a variation of aFFA called "escalation", where you draw a counter from a cupto find your target every turn, and if you draw your own,everyone is a target for you and visa-versa. I had themisfortune of drawing my own counter too often...=====By Edd Podgornoff (Killjoy) on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 09:51pm: Edit

Weird Question figured it might go here.... I work odd hours soI usually play solo games. I just recently purchased Omega 1and really want to start learning the rules. My Question is hasanyone here tried taking a omega ship and go against one ofthe monsters in the solo scenarios. I can see where some ofthe races are going to have a problem and where others willexcel. Should I possibly alter the formula of the scenarios torepresent the fact that the omega ships are somewhat differentin design or just leave them be??

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 11:31pm: Edit

==Ed, I haven't, and I don't know if anyone elsehas. Off the cuff I'd suggest leaving them be,as everyone has their ups and downs withvarious critters. (Plasma vs Sun snake comesto mind..)

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 03:50 pm:Edit

Ooh... Finally a use for the Vari Probe Cruiser...

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EARLY YEARS TACTICSBy Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 01:07 am:Edit

OK, time to fire the EY Tactics section back up. I'm planning onrunning a EY Fleet Battle this weekend. Federation vsKlingons, Y110 (First Fed-Klingon War). WSIII, full EW in play,no t-bombs available, Klingons only get 4 pts for upgradeddrones. On a single, fixed map. Battle is to establish control ofthe space surrounding a valuable (uninhabited) mining planet.Each side is using a squadron of "new" ships, supported by agroup of older ships called up as reserves. Basically, "a lastman standing" type of game.

Federation:Star Fleet: YDN, YCA, YCLRigelian: YRC, YRDAlpha-Centauran: YAC, YAD

Klingon:C4, D4, F4, 2xD3, 2xF3

Any tactics suggestions for either side?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 03:47 pm:Edit

Well, that was ugly. The Star Fleet commander (your's truely)got too greedy and pushed for range 2 and got away from theslower national guard ships. All of the warp-refitted Klingonsrecieved varying degrees of internal damage (Both D3s: about30 internals, 1 F3: 25 internals, 1 F3: crippled, no powerremaining). However, the divided Federation Fleet made theYDN an inviting target and the Klingons pounded the Star Fleetships. The YDN was crippled and YCA and YCL were heavilydamaged.

Critical lesson learned: Dividing your force in a fleetengagement is just as bad in EY as it is in the GW

All in all, a decisive Klingon victory, especially considering theships that took the damage on both sides. The Klingons tradedheavy damage to four old, worn-out ships for a chance tosmash several newer Federation warships. Not a bad trade.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 -04:30 pm: Edit

Ryan: It's been here all along.

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 12:45pm: Edit

We are starting an Y campain in the next few weeks. I am theCarnivon and fighting the Lyrans. Half our starting BPV must

be W era ships. I was looking at SSDs last night, and am veryconfused as to how the Carnivon W ships are to fight theLyrans.

The only offensive weapons I have are Heel Nippers (Range2), and Phaser 2s (Range 5 or so). When fighting equaly sizedships, I am going up against Range 10 dirs, and Phaser 2s.Sure he doesn't have ESGs yet (and I would rather have himbe armed with them, at least then my Heel Nippers can beused), but it seems he has a 5-7 hex Glory Zone in which I cando very little against.

What advice do you guys have? (This may be a good AskUncle Ardack question)

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 -01:27 pm: Edit

Take his fire at range 3-10, and increase speed to close torange 2 or less to use your heel nippers. Your in closefirepower should enable you to seriously hurt him after hedings you at long range.

There is a reason the Carnivon empire does not show up on aF&E map. ...

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 07,2002 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Ryan. Remember, he can't fire his disruptors at range 0; yourWarp Field Interruption Devices don't have that limitation

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 -02:35 pm: Edit

The only reason the Carnivons didn't survive is the catsganged up on them. From what I can tell, Carnivon ships areincredibly strong for the Y-era.

With the disruptor cannon, you effectively have an overloadedweapon, except that it goes to range 15. The death bolt is aheavy drone for the Y-era and it has that cute directedwarhead. Heel nippers are devasting in knife fights as theymake it easy for the dogs to maneuver onto the shield ofchoice. They also make it a lot easier for the death bolts andsuicide shuttles to hit -- I don't recall when SS's becomeavailable, but the Carnivon should definitely use them.

For W-era ships, things get tricky since you have to get close.However, the early years Lyrans (or early years anybody) don'thave the firepower to do much at range, even against early-years shields. You can take his ranged shot and still have mostof your weapons when you close. If he's powering disruptors,then you're moving faster and can close. Once you get inclose, you can use the HNs to keep his ship pointing the wrongway as you savage his rear shields. Where you lose is if hecan keep the range open.

Strategically, things get interesting for both sides because youhave to decide where to deploy the W-ships. On the one hand,if you mix Y and W ships, you are reducing your fleet speed.On the other hand, if a squadron of only W ships encounters asquadron of Y ships of equal BPV, it is dead. The Carnivonsmight do well with mixed fleets, as the W ships could charge inand either draw fire or wreak havoc with their heel nippers,while the Y ships take advantage of the long range crunch ofthe DCs. But I don't know what kind of campaign setup you areusing.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 07,2002 - 03:00 pm: Edit

FYI, I'll be playing a campaign parallel to Ryan's Carnivon-Lyran duel.

Y110. My Klingons vs Federation. The campaign format isbased on the Admirals Game (picture 2 Admirals Games with aneutral zone between them.

Needless to say, I already have some suggestions for newKlingon EY ships. I'll post game reports as they occur.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, August 12, 2002 -12:53 pm: Edit

We've begun the first turn in the Campaign. My Klingonscharged across the border, contesting all 6 "areas" in theneutral zone. Dale's Federation was more conservative,sending larger squadrons into only 3 areas.

The first battle selected pits a Klingon F4 and D4 against aRigelian Cruiser, Vulcan Improved Destroyer, AndorianCruiser, and Andorian Destroyer. I'm out-BPVd 3:2, but sinceonly one ship has photons, I decide to stay and fight.

T1 Dale moves up slowly from his corner while I charge ahead,moving 21 hexes to control the center of the map (close to theplanet in 2215).

T2 I drop a SP from my D4, arm my DISR and move 15. Dalemoves up, with heavy EW, moving about 12. I fire 4 DISR atR15 (why go to R5, my to-hit and dmg don't improve) and whiffwith 3 of them. The RC takes a 1 point ding on his #1. I movearound the planet to prepare for the next turn.

T3 The 6 type-II drones from my SP are in 3 hexes, stayingbetween the two of us. He drops two SPs himself and slips,then turns away to keep them from impacting. He's moving 11with heavy EW again. I had seen the opportunity and plotted afast/slow plot, giving me Range 8 on the #3 of the RC. Myalpha takes down the shield and does a few internals (1 warp,no weapons). His SP drones are still moving toward me atspeed 8 and, when at range 1, he begins killing my SP drones.After I fire, he turns in, taking a few risks against my last 2drones, but the dice are kind (the drones would've impacted hisRCs down #3). I'm worried now, since I hadn't expected theturn-in. I launch a type IV and prepare to circle around theplanet again, at speed 10. He launches a drone from his AC,targetted on my drone and then hits range 8. I use my last battto raise the EW level on my D4, but the F4 is out of luck - andthe target. It's #6 gets crushed and it takes about a dozeninternals (that's a lot of Ph-2s I realize, belatedly). I then getsneaky and turn around the planet, causing the 12 SP dronesto lose lock-on.

T4 I plot max speed for my F4 (18, with min. shields and noFC) to get out of dodge (its a campaign and, to repair beyondD9.4 takes an overhaul and BPV). My D4 sees an opportunityand HETs to get a shot on the RCs down shield at R8. I do afew more internals and this time hit a photon. I then flee and hechases.

T5 I'm completely dry but, with the RC down a photon, decideits worth staying. My F4 continues to fly off the map and getsaway. We meander the rest of the turn, though he launchesanother SP, which I again do my hide-behind-the-planet trickagainst.

T6 This turn is looking pretty decisive. My ship is 4 hexes fromhis main force (AC, AD, VDI) and about 11 from his RC (whichhad separated last turn). I plot a 15/10/15 plot while he goesfast (22, 18 for the RC; less EW). MY plot, combined with hishigh speed allows me to get to R2 on the FH/RH hexline, justoutside of FA. I had launched type IVs on 32 and 1 to help

keep him a bit busier, and the VDI tractored these at R2. Weexchanged Alphas. I rolled well and knocked down the #2 onthe VDI, doing 6 internals (no trac); he rolled poorly and tookmy #6 to 0 boxes (I saved my batts for anti-tractor work). Helaunched a couple of drones from his Andorian ships, but evenwith my low speed of 10, his speed 8 drones weren't going tocatch me. A couple of impulse later, his RA weapons came intoarc vs my centerline rear at R2. My 4 PH-2s did 19 (1114),hammering the VDI through his #3, this time hitting a TRAC(no torp, though). He rolled poorly again, taking my #4 down tohalf. The next impulse, however, his RC got R8 on my down #6and fired 4 PH-2 and a photon. Again Dale's dice were horribleand I suffered only 3 internals (1 warp). He had saved enoughLS phasers to kill the released type-IV. To add insult to injury,when I sped up on i.17 to 15, I was able to outpace the dronesand run behind the planet again (that rule in the P-section wasturning out to be a live-saver for me). He spent the rest of theturn slowing down to 5-7 and regrouping. The game standsunfinished at that point.

In fairness to Dale, he is a decade and a half rusty, but basedupon his improvements from T1-T6, he's remembering fast. Ifhis dice hadn't been so bad, I'd be running for my life next turn;instead, I'm going to stay around to see what more damage Ican do.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 -12:57 pm: Edit

OK. We finished the fight last night.

T7 At this point, I'm about 2415B and his stuff is separated onthe other side of the planet (2215). I do a 15/10 plot and amable to get a R/RA olbique on the RC's down #3 shield on imp3, doing 5 with my 4 ph-2s (R5-7?), hitting his just repairedphoton. I circle to the NE of the planet, ending facing E. Hecircles around the planet slowly, Andorians in front, and buildsup a nice drone wave (SP + 2 drones). He fires ph-2s on imp29, doing some damage to my #1. We end the turn at range 3.

T8 I plot 16/10 to make sure I move on imp 2. His Andoriansdo a 16/8, his other ships a bit slower. On impulse 2, his ADmoves forward and I turn to F. I feed him 4 ph-2 and 2 disr,doing about a dozen internals. He holds fire (nothing cycled). Iimmediately start turning away. On imp 5, he fires a lot of stuffat me, but again the photon misses, so besides losing a fewmore shields (only my #3 is intact, and of the rest only my #1has more than 2 boxes, if any), I only take a couple more hullhits (again poor dice on Dale's part). I am also able to land atype-IV on the AD, though on a fresh shield. The damage,however, is enough to cripple him (4-5 power left). At speed10, I'm able to avoid the drones and turn around to face D. Heruns off the AD, but closes with the other ships, the VDI endingat R3, one hex off rear centerline.

T9 I put up 4 ECM, since both the VDI and RC have my down#4. I plot a 16/10 again, though drop my speed on 16 this time(instead of the normal 3). He goes relatively slow (~10).Impulse 2 I slip right and rear-centerline the VDI, firing 4 ph-2sinto him, downing the shield and doing a few internals. Impulse3 I send over 5 boarding parties. He then, however, gets a niceblast from his RC (4 ph-2s at R5? with 4 ECCM) into my down#4, followed a couple impulses later by a R3 strike from theAC. I get hit pretty hard, losing a disr, drone, all 4 waist ph-2s,4 warp, and 2 batts (1 still had power). My plan HAD been tochase down the AD, feed it a type-IV, then tractor it home, butthe batt hit cost me a point of power for one of my remainingph-2s and I felt I was down too much power to get away at 1.5Move Cost. I therefore fled at top speed.

While conceeding the planet, both my ships are fully repairablewithin the D9.4 limits, so they can be back in shape quickly.

His AD is crippled and needs an overhaul to get back to snuff.His VDI is borderline, with D9.4 perhaps not getting quite allthe critical boxes (with me leaving the map, he had my 25marines either dead or captured in a few turns). His AC isuntouched, though almost empty of drones while his RC isbarely touched, able to get in full fighting shape with CDRalone, albeit down some padding.

Much of my success was due to Dale's rust and poor die rolls. Iam definately not looking forward to games where he hasmultiple photon ships, and after this 9 turn marathon (>10 hrsof play), his rust is mostly gone. Besides their uses at pointblank range, the drones are just moving terrain, though theycan be very effective at that since the normal batle speed isabout 12 (equivilant to 20 in the normal game). Speed 12s arean advantage, but still not decisive (about like spd 20s in thenormal game). I never shot at the Andorian drones, but their 5dmg to kill I can see being pretty significant (>1 ph-3) and 8damage is nothing to scoff at with these ships.

We have two more battles in this round. A C4 and F4 vs 3 ofhis ships (MC1, MC1, MC 1/2 - 6 photons) and a D4 and F4 vsa VC, another MC1, and a MC 1/2 (4 photons total). I'm notlooking forward to either one; the former due to the potential of6 photons and the latter due to the VC.


OK. We fought another one of the games. The C4 and F4 vsan Orion WCA, Orion WDD (unrefitted) and Federation YAC(Alpha Centauran Cruiser) (only 5 photons, not 6 as previouslyfeared).

I had him slightly out-BPVd, though was concerned about the 5photons.

T1 I went 19, he went about 11, with the nimble WDD goingerratic for cheaper ECM. On imp 32, I fired 3 disr and 4 ph-2from the C4 at the WCA, doing 12 (range 14).

T2 I went 12(?) with 4 ECCM on the C4 and 2 ECM on the F4,all weapons loaded. He did a 7/17 split (imp 16 or so). On imp1, I dropped a SP from the C4 (6 type IIX drones). On imp 10 itburst, imp 11 I tranfered control of 4 drones to the F4 andlaunched 3 more IIX from my 2 ships (its an extra BPV perdrone, but speed 12, endurance 4 is handy in this era). Thedrones spread out into 3 stacks of 2 with the stack of 3 behindthem. We hit range 8, oblique. I alpha'd against the WCA (theYAC has an E turn mode, so I considered it less of a long-termthreat), doing about a dozen internals (no torp). He fired backfrom his cruisers at my F4, rolling poorly and just doing 1internal. His WDD had stopped EM that impulse and unloadedthe following impulse, doing 10 to my F4 through its downshield (1 ph-2, but 5 power). My F4 turned away and my C4turned in. He turned off and then sped off, outpacing thedrones at least momentarily.

T3. I focused my F4 on ensuring his ships stayed within 25hexes - his only job at this point was contoling drones. My C4did a 22/16/12 split to set up a R8 olbique shot on the rears ofthe WCA. I knocked down the #4 and did a few more internals.He didn't return fire. I chased while he tried to outpace mydrones enough to get around them. I was able to set up a R3olblique position on imp 32.

T4 At this point, the Feds were running. I alpha'd the WCA,almost crippling it. My C4 had TACs on i.2 and i.3 followed bya jump to 10. MY F4 had positioned itself on 3.32 to fire its 2DISR at R14-15 at the down shield of the WCA (unless heturned IN). Both F4 disr missed, but the last 2 ph-2s in the

waist of the C4 crippled the WCA, preventing disengagementby accelaration.

T5-8? I chased down the WCA and tractored it. I begansending over BPs. He attempted self-destruction, but rolled2,2,1 on turns 5-7. When all was said and done, I had capturedthe ship and 190 crew members. I had, however, lost 90marines in the effort (18 BPs!!) [note to self: for all theirvaunted prowess in hand-to-hand, these Klingons are fightinglike farmers]. The other two Fed ships easily escaped.

CONCLUSSIONS:#1 The C4 is a nasty, nasty ship. DNs are to be feared in theEY era, unlike in the GW when they are just overstuffedcommand cruisers era#2 Both the YAC and Orion WCA are under-BPVd by about 10points. They underperformed in this battle and, after comparingthem to the 75 BPV D4, they are obviously inferior (weapons,shields, power), though stronger than the F4. We estimateBPVs of 66 and 60 respectively to be more appropriate.#3 Speed 12 drones can be very effective using standarddrone tactics.


Correction to #2 above. The YAC and Orion WCA are overBPVd by about 10 points.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, August 19, 2002 -09:20 pm: Edit

Andy: I think you hit more on a technological mismatch thanincorrect BPVs. With the large numbers of Type-II you listusing, the scenario has to occur after Y100 since you launchedall 8 restricted Type-IIs the C4 could carry. This would be thesame result as using unrefitted Rangers against fast drones.


RWW. For the BPV comparison, we just looked at the ships vsone of their historical opponents - the D4. Even with speed 8drones, the D4 is superior to both ships...speed, power curve,firepower, and shields. There's no way they should be in thesame ballpark for BPV. The battle, while lopsided, gave usreason to examine the ships since they didn't seem to fit their"billing."

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, August 19, 2002 -11:26 pm: Edit

Klingons are about the best value in EY in my experience. TheD4 is as good as the other CAs but somewhat cheaper. I don'tknow that it's BPV is worth increasing, though.

I also think that the Feds have trouble in EY - they're blind atrange 1 and lack a tertiary weapon system. The Carnivons(also a two-turn direct fire race) are simply better.

Combine the two and I'd expect EY Klingons to consistentlybeat EY Feds. Certainly in my groups brief EY campaign I ranrampant with the Klingons.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 -12:32 am: Edit

Andrew Harding. I am hoping that the Republic class Cruisers,supported by the Vulcan Scouts, create some balanced fights.

The Carnivon fights haven't started yet, but I can't helpshudder at the thought of 6-8 R15 disruptor cannon.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 -02:28 am: Edit

Having the only scouts in the era does help the Feds, yes.Having the only P1 doesn't hurt either.

Carni's are just tough. Awesome long (well, by EY standards15 is long) ranged firepower and absolutely deadly in aknifefight. Not much else can put eight phasers plus theheavies onto a single target, especially after the HN has forcedan unfavorable turn.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, December 07,2002 - 10:40 pm: Edit

We finally played the last battle of the first round. My D4 andD4 vs a Vulcan Cruiser (VC), Terran Cruiser (YCA) and TerranFrigate (YDD).

It was rather unexciting, so I'll be brief. I launched a SP with 4type IIX drones and launched rack drones to get a decentwave. I alpha'd at R8 and, with the 4 OEW on the D4, almostdowned the #2 on the YCA. He turned in a took a R6 shot,doing some internals to the D4. He then turned off to avoid thedrones.T2, I saw my F4 could get a shot on the weak shield if I HETd -I did and brokedown. My D4, started his battlepass and,instead of turning in, tractored the F4 and turned away. I thenran. I ended up, after his last ditch fire up my tailpipes, taking13 internals on the D4 and 9 on the F4. He took 6 on the YCA(had to turn his weak shield to me to get his last shot).

The breakdown really throws off the playtest value. All I cansay is that the Terran ships are much higher quality ships thanthe Nat'l Guard ones. The VC is power-poor, but the ability toguarantee a shift on any one of my ships is a nice feature. Iwas out-BPV'd by about 50%, so was just hoping to cause todamage.

We're working on our next round builds & moves.

By Dave Cross (Davecross) on Wednesday, December 11,2002 - 11:11 am: Edit

For those interested in the Early Years tactics and results, adiscussion of the latest battle of the other BattlegroupBaltimore campaign (Lyrans vs. Carnivons), which includes anassault on a YBS, is located in the Player Campaigns section.

Dave Cross

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 02:00pm: Edit

I am realy enjoying playing the early years, the lack of options(campared to GW era) really makes the game interesting. Ofcourse I am getting mauled in our campaign, but I am havingfun.

By Dave Cross (Davecross) on Friday, December 13, 2002 -03:09 pm: Edit

Ryan,

Once you start kicking out those Carnivon YDN's from yourshipyards, then you can have some fun :-)

Dave

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ATTRITION TACTICSBy Robert Cole (Zathras6) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 -11:00 am: Edit

Tactical question for attrition units:

Could 6x F111s and 6x F18Cs defeat 6x G1 or 6x BOB-A?

Assume normal drone percentages are in place, but you canbuy whatever is needed to fill all racks / rails...

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 -12:19 pm: Edit

Forget what the G1's and Bob-A's have but, sounds like oneheck of a waiting game on their part. If the G1's have ADD's,they'd have an easier time of it. Focus on drone defence untilthe Fed has no more, sparing any extra fire during the turn atthe fighters until they are at least crippled. Stay fast to makehim use his packs just to keep within drone range and he'll losefighters fast from DF.

By Chad Calder (Hades_Minion) on Wednesday, March 20,2002 - 01:25 pm: Edit

No


No..? L

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Wednesday, March 20,2002 - 03:48 pm: Edit

G-1s just stay out of Ph-3 range until the F111s and F18Cs runout of oxygen or drones, whichever comes first.


Well Ok, No because like other people have stated if the PFsjust play conserative and fire disruptors each turn at fightersand save Most of their phasers/Drones/ADDs for dronedefense while moving speed 31 each turn the fighters won't beable to do anything to stop this tactic.


Ok, how does a fixed map change things?


Coming into the battle with a shatterpack on the leader wouldhelp alot and conserve the G-1's ADD ammo. The scout couldalso be very helpful, that is, if they can perform that action.Don't have the PF rules in front of me.Closed map make it that much harder since you can't fly awayfrom the drones. Tell your opponent closed maps wereupgraded to open maps the year before PF's came out.


Focus on the F-18C's the first few rounds to try to take themout as they take much less damage to become ineffective thanthe F-111's. One disruptor will almost cripple them on packsand two will cripple them off of packs. They have les drones to

fire at you, but you can knock that many drones out quickerthen if you tried for the F-111'sTry to stay to range 9+ as he may try to fire his G's at range 4-8. 24 attempts to roll a one or a two against PF shields will hurtafter a volley or two. He'll still have enougb punch left ot keepyou from closing, so it's a viable tactic for him.Grab as many MW (or starfish if you feel lucky) drones toknock down drones as well or to fire at a group of fighters thathave fired all their phasers this turn.


See, I'm flying the fighters.....and I told Robert that I don't thinkthey could beat 6xPfs.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Wednesday, March 20,2002 - 06:21 pm: Edit

The PF's have a huge advantage in EW support. The scoutguarantees the fighters will be firing at a shift of two. The PFsquadron should win hands down.


Now, does having F-14Cs in place of the F-18Cs changeanything at all?


Not too much, as there is even more incentive to cripple theweaker fighters soon and they don't gain that many hit pointsand still have the same early drone throw weight.As for the scout, I'd use it for drone swatting at first while theyhave lots of them coming at you. Once the swarm gets smallerdue to crippled fighters or simply running out, it can be used forEW support on more agressive attack runs.For the disruptors, with the F-18C's, firing two at each is agood idea, IMO, as if one hits, it's nearly crippled (with packs)and two will either cripple or kill it depending on packs. Evenwith one hit, it will have to decide whether or not to keep thepacks on or not. If it doesn't, it falls behind, spreading out thedrone swarm enough the be handled easier. If he keeps themon, he's risking being picked off by a spare phaser-1 and becrippled for sure.With the F-14C's I'd go with three disruptors per fighter withoutpacks on and two if they do. That way one hit will damage itenough to reconsider packs, two hits will either cripple it or killit, and three will cripple it without packs.


Well, 6xF111s and 6xF-14Cs cab launch 48 drones the firstturn, 36 the second turn, then they are just about out of drones.

Can 6xPFs kill enough of the 84 drones to survive and stillhave enough weapons left over to prevent the 12xP-Goverrun? Again, assume a closed map.


Hafta check the PF's out at home to say anything beyondtheories/tactics.


Christopher,

"Well, 6xF111s and 6xF-14Cs cab launch 48 drones the firstturn, 36 the second turn, then they are just about out of drones.

Can 6xPFs kill enough of the 84 drones to survive and stillhave enough weapons left over to prevent the 12xP-Goverrun? Again, assume a closed map. "

Answer Wild PFS

(See I can too answer these posts with all of the nessaryverbage. I TRIPPLED my word count of my first post )


Hehe......true.

Hmm, then it would seem that the PFS would die. Course, ifyou could kill it first, then the others would have quite the hardtime.

By Kerry Mullan (Nomadwyn) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 -11:35 am: Edit

Yep could happen, but when your PFS is going spd 12 dealingwith drones targetted on it will be hard to combat.If you have 6 of each fighter on a fixed map it should be apretty even battle. Both will take a lot of damage and the PFsshould prevail, but the Feddie fighter brigade should still havea decent chance to get kills.The main thing is judicious use of the packs.. ie PFs turn awaypack on(as they have FA weapons). Use drones to drive themaway, but make sure the drones all arrive on the sameturn(starting turn 2 most likely). Try to mass fire on one PF aturn, not much damage but still can get some. The PFS is yourfirst target(as it has power problems and won't have 5-8 powerin reinforcement).


If the scout is drone swatting, it has no power problems thatthe other ship's don't have. I checked out the PF finally andfigured that they could deal with the amount of drone beingshot at them, but it would be close. They've got 36 rounds ofADD and 44 drones (with as many MW's as possible) to usefor drone defence. Add to that 6 attempts to swat drones fromthe scout each turn and 12 dogfight drones from a preloadedshatterpack on the leader, as well as a t-bomb properly placedfrm the leader, again. After all that, you've got two phaser 2'son each PF (fired as 3's from the scout) for a total of twelvephasers. The leader can even hold one drone at bay with it'stractor after it released the SP. If you get desperate enough,and in the right position, use the disruptor for drone defence.The fighters may live a bit longer, but they've got less to fire atyou. EM once all your defences are used for the turn if ther willbe an ECM advantage to get a roll on the proximity ofdetonation chart to possibly reduce damage.Can you determine which rack on the fighters a drone waslaunched from? If so, then you know which drones can benasty as opposed to just mean and focus your attentions tothose first.


Also, I would try to time a speed change up to 30 or 31 tocoincide with the drones reaching range 3 after my turn awaywith packs on, per Kerry's suggestion. That way, the ADD's getmaximum time to chatter away at them and the phaser-2's aredecent, not to mention if you are going speed 30, they'll close

one or two hexes, after you've fired phasers at them, making ita guarenteed kill even with a phaser-3 (mean and nasty dronesaside, but you'll still have time to deal with them).


Don't forget that those fighters can have a fair number of MWdrones themselves, which will (if properly times on a fixedmap) take a lot more to kill while still doing substantial damageto PFs.


Good point. About the only way to get rid of them is to outlastthem, which luckily, isn't very long. Stay 30 or 31 and they'llnever catch you.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:17am: Edit

Which is why I said, "if properly timed on a fixed map". Whichis exactly how big plasma stays competitive in the tournament.

By David Jannke (Bigslowtarget) on Tuesday, October 22,2002 - 07:49 am: Edit

In light of the popularity of J2, I'd like to ask a question of theattrition skilled players and hear their opinions on the following:

Can a drone or plasma carrier fleet defeat a direct fire heavycruiser/war cruiser fleet of similar combat BPV on an openmap?

From repeated play and much trial and error I've found thefollowing:

ALL COMMENTS ARE MADE RELATIVE TO COMBAT BPVon an OPEN MAP

1) Carrier groups rock as a small component of a larger fleet.Their firepower exceeds that of and equal BPV of crusers IFtheir targets are close or fighting an approach battle. They cankeep opposing fleets at range which allows the main body ofthe fleet to maintain lower speeds (freeing energy for weaponsand EW) and fire all weapons at the opponent. The opposingfleet has to keep some guns in reserve to hold off a concertedrush and seeking weapons.

2) Operating on their own, carrier groups can effectively fighteach other and drones always win over plasmas.

3) A carrier group by itself facing a cruiser group of similar BPVon an open map dies. This may be changed by megafighters,but only if those megafighters are armed with significant directfire weapons (Phas-Gs, p2s, lots of p3s). The flattops areusually killed by peeling off the fighters using torps at longrange and sabre dance/snipe and run tactics. A high speedand reluctance to close + tbombs eases dealing with drones.

4) SWACs are a useful way of sucking down disruptor fire andgiving the opponent 64 free econ victory points so launch themwild or pick a task for them to accomplish quickly 'cause theywon't be around long.

Any opinions?

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MAGELLANIC TACTICS

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, March 23, 2002- 12:48 am: Edit

Tactics time:

How do you defeat an Eneen in a duel, fixed map, with adisruptor ship?

Opening the floor on this for the next week. Then I'll walkthrough the other races. This is my check to see what needsdoing.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Saturday, March 23,2002 - 12:56 am: Edit

Get your butt up there quick. Don't power/fire disruptors. Justget up there, wade through what he has (behind a SP, if youare D&D), take your punishment, and hack and slash him.Won't work if you have to do it twice, so spread that plasmadamage.

Unless you are talking about an OLD Eneen, in which case thisgets much easier.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 -01:01 am: Edit

If D&D, I'd go with Jonathan. Keep in mind that, historically,you are goin to have fast drones. Use them to make life muchmore difficult for the Eneen. Possiblly time a salvo to get on thelemurs before you do, as then you can dry out his banks byforcing him to fire in point-defense. This will either slow himdown to recharge, or leave him with less direct-fire power.

Lyrans have a problem with not having drones, and it can behard to force an ESG ram in the initial stages. However,late/post war Lyran designs have very strong direct firepowerwith their strong phaser arrays. Try to drop a couple of theouter rear shields. Or else just scream at speed 31 andthreaten either the hack/n/slash or the overrun.

By Marc Remaley (Skawpya) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 -05:27 am: Edit

Not that familiar with klingons or kzinti in this sort of situation,but having played lyrans heavily I'd say, don't power thedisrupters at first, pump shield reinforcement a bit, and aim forradius three esg sideswipes on his #3 and #5 shields. Onceboth of them are down, go into pursuit mode and every time heturns to fire, hit him with disrupters+phasers.

Or use 31 tactics with disrupters off keeping at an extreme aspossible distance, again keep shield reinforcement pumped atdistance most of the time, while you reload the ESGs batteriesa few power points a turn. then for the charges, power as manydisrupter as you can and still move 31, and rush the eneen.use batteries to snap load as many more disrupters as you canonce you get in ram or sideswipe distance, then take offrunning again.

Tholian, if you have web casters I'd use one of those to preventtaking short ranged nuetron beam damage when you close in.If you have more than one, use it steer the eneen in thedirection he already fired last turn. Once one or more outershields are gone, use disrupters at range through the downedshield.

Without webcasters, keep moving at speed 25-31, withdisrupters off most of the time to reload phaser capacitor.maybe some ecm. when fully loaded, rush in, maybe loadingone disrupter, leaving batteriers to load a second one on thesame side, get as close as possible in a single turn, fire, then

run to reload. Use 2 hex snares to provide a screen as youregain distance

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 01:43pm: Edit

Thought I had responded to this already....

Basically you can't dance with the VRF, not in the beginninganyways. So Jaw the first hit, move in with a hack n slash niceand close, preferably with a SP following, and thenanchor/knifefight to finish.

Eneen cant fight every turn, and with big hard volleys once aturn will have less shields than the klink.

Eneen will of course prefer to hit n run, don't allow this. Thuswhy you hack/slash second turn to have the speed to get realclose.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 -02:08 pm: Edit

Avoid using Jargon. Definitions of obscure terms such as "jaw"and even "dance" should be given. I have seen the term"standard" used to refer to a Phaser-I, a type-I drone, and anon-overloaded disruptor, and all three people assumed thattheir use of the term was the obviously accepted standardwhich everyone would understand. They were all wrong.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 -01:08 am: Edit

Tactical mantra:

1: The Eneen (especially in fleets) can be engaged at range 15by disruptor ships. The disruptor has a significant advantageover the neutron beam at 13-15, with the phaser 1s being deadeven with the MLs at this bracket. Since the Eneen lack massdrivers, it's quite feasable to fire phasers at this range alongwith disruptors (like an E torp launched at range 15 is much ofa threat...)

2: If you can get to range 8, you have overloads the Eneen hasa choice of how many NBs to arm, and the trouble of gettingthem all in arc without giving you closer shot.

3: Use everything on your ship. That's drone racks, web, ESGsand anything else (Shield crackers for the Seltorians, which aresomething of a terror weapon in the LMC...)

4: Use your advantages (flexible weapon arming, non-poweredsecondary weapons, the ability to reinforce a shield and chargebehind it to get position) to take the fight where you want it,rather than playing passive patty cake with the Eneen.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, March 25, 2002- 03:36 pm: Edit

Next open forum:

You have a firehawk. It's a closed map. You're facing anEneen CA. How do you beat it?

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 10:27am: Edit

Don't ept. Jaw(10+ reinf. saved from moving excessivley fastor other systems) first turn, chase it down and kill it in acorner/anchor it with the beam second turn.

Eneen wants to run n gun. Has difficulty concentratint itsfirepower. Don't mess around, just kill it.

Did I mention 'don't ept'?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 12:00pm: Edit

Geoff> You'll want to be careful of the Eneen leaving the NBsunarmed and charging in. If it can get a close range center-lineposition at the end of the turn, or one where it can fire impulse1, then turn or TAC impulse 2, four neoutron beams at oncecan hurt. Expect the Eneen to have two weasels at start, andprobably be preparing a third at that point.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Tuesday, March 26,2002 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Ken - is this a test, or do you have concerns re: the Eneen?

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002- 05:52 pm: Edit

JP: It's meant as a sounding board. More a test than anythingelse.

I'm looking for someone to post an obviously game breakingtactic if there is one.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 07:23pm: Edit

Alex, if he charges with no NBs armed, and looks to end theturn close to an armed BP boat, I look forward to putting himout of his misery.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, March 27,2002 - 01:13 am: Edit

Geoff:

For the Eneen, range 6 is "close". Range 2 "bad idea". Range0 is "What do you MEAN, myopic?"

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 -02:57 am: Edit

Perfect range for putting him on the hex grain then and makinghis 2 impulse shot pure hell for him.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Thursday, March 28,2002 - 02:02 am: Edit

So, how does one beat the Eneen TC with the ISC TC?(Without drugging the Eneen player)


Ignore the PPD. You have enough phasers and facing plasmato try for an overrun, if you can arrange to minimize yourexposure to the NBs on the way in.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 -01:23 pm: Edit

The ISC is in real trouble. It's best weapon is virtuallyworthless, and by the time shields on the Eneen are worndown enough for its use, the PPD will be long gone. This iscertainly a case where the drone/torp hit which can hit a rear Fis gonna be a hindrance.

Certainly, the ISC in general has a reasonably hardconsolidating damage. This is obviously much worse when youconsider the main weapon is not goona do jack. While notconsolidating damage is valuable against galactics, that willjust not get it done against the LMC.

However, lets try and be optimistic.

Here's what I would try to do. I would power the PPD, sincepaying 2 to hold is the best deal the ISC has got. I would wanta high speed/low speed split/high speed plot. I would want tobe going slow when when reached 10-12, and I would kick outa G. (Lets say real) I would want the G to approach on theoblique, just as I would. I would want the G set to impact justas I was reaching range 5, hopefully perfect oblique, andhoping my opponents TM either is not set, or maybe myopponent doesn't move. I would want my speed change set tobe going fast right when this happened, so I could avoid theRS weapons if the Eneen turned in on me.

I am trying for two things.

1) Bolt from G and F onto same shield I just hit with G.(Question, does VRF get applied both times in 1 imp?)2) If opponent turns away from G, I am hoping for Bolt andPPD followup. (Range 5 goal after Eneens fired at range 6)

I don't give this strat a whole lot of hope, but I see preciouslittle the ISC is gonna do.


VRF applies per volley iirc.

I wold launch both gs, and follow in with direct fire. PPD willactually be ok when combined with phasers onto 1 shield. Hitthat shield hard enough, and even if turned away you will stillpick at it slightly.

But dang its still not good for the ISC.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Thursday, March 28,2002 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Geoff. It gets worse. Each PPD is a separate volley unto itself,happening as the first part of DF.

We found that this, well. Can't say it /works/ so much as "sucksless".

Lob 40, aim for the oblique. He shies away from the 40, orturns off from it. The 40 can be two reals or a real and a PPT --you don't want it to hit, you want it to get him to turn off.

Get on a rear shield, and shred it with phasers and a bolted F ifnecessary. You need to dish out about 21 points to one Eneenshield, since that'll cover the shield and any reinforcement hecan do from batteries.

If you drop the bearing outer shield, and your opponent has toHET into plasma to bring a new shield into arc, fire the PPDinto the hole you just made. Otherwise, turn off such that yourplasma covers your escape. The PPD can't be used untilyou've got at least 1 (and preferably 2 adjacent) down outershields.

It's similar to how Paul Scott and Norm Cruz fly ISC right now -- except that it takes a double G launch to make it happen,rather than an EPT. (The Scott Opening as played by Ken Lin,perhaps?)

It's not an easy match.


Geoff. It gets worse. Each PPD is a separate volley unto itself,happening as the first part of DF.

Right, well that's what they get for designing a weapon to fightalpha shields specefically.

Sucks to be ISC.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Friday, March 29, 2002 -08:57 am: Edit

The more I think about this fight, the funnier it gets in my mind.Eneen wins this, and will win this huge.

ISC can generally play a long game. (Since PPD will wearpeople down) Against LMC, PPD won't do jack diddly.

ISC isn't the strongest ship close in, and some weapons haverestrictions. (1 F a turn, PPD myopia) The ISC generally doesok though in knife fights since by the time it happens theopponents shields are shredded.

I give the 0 out of 10 considering equal play.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Friday, March 29, 2002 -08:44 pm: Edit

So, Tim

You're in the ISC. You're facing Paul Scott's Eneen.

What do you do? (Besides try and drink him under the table...)

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sfb tactics archives 2002 part 2 of 2 - amarillo design bureau

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