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Iron Tower Studio Forums RPG The Depository Roundtable: Story

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VinceDeveloper

Posts: 4095

Roundtable: Story« on: May 23, 2008, 02:31:04 PM »

Part I - Roundtable: Setting

Part III - Roundtable: Characters

What are your preferences and thoughts in regard to storylines? Linear or non-linear? Epic or low-key? Formulaic or "chaotic"?Taking control from the player for extra drama (i.e. you fell asleep, was captured, and thrown in jail. Surprise!) or leaving the playercompletely in charge? What are your storytelling trademarks (or what storytelling aspects would you like to develop into your owntrademarks)?

* * *

Chris Avellone

I believe in non-linear “stories,” but I’d much rather have a game world filled with game mechanics and game systems that allow theplayer to make their stories without the drama being imposed on them. I think that gives more credit and fun to the player withoutdictating the experience to them – which to some story writers may seem to create a stronger experience, but I don’t agree, I think itjust paralyzes the player and everyone else who plays the game to the same course of action, which isn’t really what a (Western)RPG is all about. It may work for other genres, but not in our case.

When creating a narrative for a game, stick with a theme, and have the world and the story echo it. Make it something you’repassionate about. As an example, I’ve always liked the Star Wars movies, but I always thought the premise behind the Force sucked.

passionate about. As an example, I’ve always liked the Star Wars movies, but I always thought the premise behind the Force sucked.And the way it works raises a lot of disturbing questions. So, for a storyline, let's go with that… and the spine of Knights of the OldRepublic II begins.

But setting up a story and a theme is not enough – and doing too much story can be claustrophobic to a player. In an RPG, letting theplayer share the world of the story is important – while the players should react strongly to the situations and setting you present tothem, you need to give the player the room to have a story on their own, based on their experiences with the system and theencounters you've set up. As an example (and a poor one, but easy to identify with), players can respond more strongly to their storyof how their dwarf warrior was able to defeat 20 orcs with only 3 hit points remaining by channeling them through a narrow dungeoncorridor to emerge victorious… which is solely their experience with the game, and can be far more exciting and personal to theplayer than something you've scripted into the storyline. To this day, people still talk about their methods for trying to keep Dogmeatalive at the end of Fallout 1 in incredible detail.

Story-wise in the world, the player's experience in the world should matter. They should see changes and consequences based ontheir actions, and see that their existence and actions in the world are having an impact. It should also allow a player to interpret anddevelop their character, both game mechanic-wise and through interaction in the world. Some RPGs can provide a static characterand character type from the outset and let the player step into their shoes, but I prefer RPGs that provide the player with a blankslate that they can sketch on. In Alpha Protocol, we do this by providing a cipher for the player to step into and then begin to develophis personality and his attributes through his interaction with the game world.

If I had storytelling trademarks, I say that most of the stories and worlds I’ve worked on have tended to veer to the dark end of thespectrum. I may have a pessimistic view of the world, but I think heroic actions become more heroic in a world that’s against yourather than one that’s cheery and helpful. I also lean toward not-quite-perfect endings, where not everything ends up happily ever after,mostly because I don’t believe in that. I also believe in unrequited romances, but George Ziets helped me break some of that inNX1, which I will be thankful to him for until the End Days.

* * *

Josh Sawyer

All of my published work to date has been highly linear, but I strongly prefer to work on non-linear storylines. I prefer thematically-driven storylines to event-driven storylines, and I like to give the player freedom within the general confines of the setting. I like to letthe player explore the setting and the story at his or her own pace while always keeping the core of the plot up-front. I think that evenside content should ultimately reinforce the central themes of the setting to make the work feel cohesive. I don't have any storytellingtrademarks, but it would be good enough for me if people felt that they had a high level of personal agency in exploring the settingsand resolving the storylines I create.

* * *

Kevin Saunders

I do favor taking control from the player, but not really for dramatic reasons. In the ideal game, I’d love to give the player completecontrol. But the amount of work required to make a game experience (and story) compelling explodes proportionate to the amount ofcontrol the player has. The less control a player has, the more the designer can focus their efforts to entertain the player.

control the player has. The less control a player has, the more the designer can focus their efforts to entertain the player.

This illustrates a ubiquitous game design trade-off: the more distinct options you give the player, the less satisfying each option willbe.

This isn’t exactly a story example, but take a typical D&D game like Neverwinter Nights 2 (NWN2) or Mask of the Betrayer (MotB).The player can choose from about a dozen distinct classes. So you need to balance encounters, loot, options, etc. to be suitable andentertaining for each type of class. That’s a lot of work. And that work means that the experience for each class gets watered down abit (because you have a finite amount of time and resources to make the game). Suppose instead that one of these games forced youto play a bard. You could gear the entire game toward that class and have an incredible amount of reactivity. The game would bericher, more immersive, better balanced, and overall a much more satisfying experience – for players who wanted to play a bard, thatis. This is one advantage that RPGs with a specific character have over those that allow character creation.

By carefully thinking about the repercussions of giving (or taking away) player control and options, you can allow most players to feel(correctly) that they own their game experience, while retaining enough control to deliver a great story and game. As with much ofgame design, you have to properly set and then meet or exceed the player’s expectations. If you establish early to the player whatconstraints there are, they’ll be less annoyed by them. Continuing with the above example – having all of the different classes andraces are a fundamental part of the D&D game. So if you’re using the D&D license, players will have that expectation and there’s astrong incentive to provide all of those races and classes.

But if I were creating my own new intellectual property (for a computer game) from scratch, I’d lean toward fewer classes and racesthan D&D has. I’d try to focus the experience more so that I could make each aspect of it stronger. While more choices are enjoyedby a lot of players, at a certain point there are better ways to entertain.

Getting back to the question... I prefer Epic over low-key. Well, I personally prefer low-key and would like to make a game like that.But I don’t think it entertains as well. In college, I ran a 2nd edition D&D campaign for some friends. I created the world, the story, theplotlines and it went very well – everyone had a great time. One of my players wanted to DM, so I passed the campaign. I told him theplans I had for the plots and world and then he took it in his own direction. Almost immediately, he sped up the plot progression by atleast a factor of three. Where I had slowly, deliberately doled out clues and events, he charged ahead, with dramatic events occurringconstantly. Frankly it was more exciting and the experience taught me to be less “stingy” in terms of storytelling. Go over the top andjust trust your ability to keep improving upon your own work. Don’t keep your best ideas in reserve – use them.

As for linear or non-linear, it depends on the type of game and experience you’re trying to create. From my above statements, onemight guess I’d favor a linear storyline, but that’s not really the case. I think in general it’s harder to draw the player into the storywhen it’s non-linear. But depending upon how you go about it, that difficulty takes place at the idea stage, not the implementationstage. So I definitely feel it can work.

Trademarks. Do you mean basically what I’d like to be known/recognized for? I do have some ideas for innovative storytelling ingames that I’d really like to try out, but I don’t know yet how they’ll work and it’s nothing I’m ready to talk about yet. And, as I mentionabove, most ideas are cheap, including mine. =) Lots of people have lots of great ideas. So what I’d like to be known for is creatingwork environments in which the real creative geniuses can excel and entertain, to help those visions be realized and implemented.

* * *

George Ziets

Personally, I’m a fan of semi-linear storytelling (which probably sounds like a cop-out, but stay with me). A true non-linear storyline is awfully difficult to achieve, especially with limited time and budget to create a commercial game. If we tryto account for too many possibilities, we can end up with a lot of potential bugs. And we have less time to focus on crafting thosedramatic moments and deep, multifaceted characters that players will remember years after finishing the game. I prefer to focus on meaningful player choices. An overarching storyline can be essentially linear, but the player can be offered criticalchoices at pre-defined points in that storyline. (And by critical choices, I’m talking about choices that have visibly differentconsequences, or lead to branches in the story structure.) That way, the design team maintains control over the number of possibleoutcomes and paths, while players understand that their choices matter, and result a distinctly different experience. And *all* choicesshould have consequences, or they shouldn’t be offered at all. Likewise, we should never force an action on the player during a cutscene, or inexplicably paralyze a player character so that he canget captured by the bad guy. If we feel the need to take direct control of the player to advance our plot, then our plot needs revision. I generally prefer personal stories over impersonal ones, mainly for the sake of motivation. I’m more likely to be drawn into the story ifmy character has a personal stake - think of how the Bhaal-child is directly threatened by Irenicus in BG2 - than if I’m just an altruisticoutsider. And while I definitely enjoy epic stories, I think we should avoid “save the world” plotlines. Apart from being cliché, they tend togenerate unrealistic characters and villains. I’d rather write a story that sends players to epic locations, or pits them against epicenemies, but focuses on villains who have solid, believable motivations for what they’re trying to do.

* * *

David Gaider

Tough call. Taking control away from the player isn't always a bad thing -- complete freedom to wander can be great, but it isn'talways compatible with a strong narrative -- yet it can be tricky. It's like in a tabletop game, I don't really mind if the storyteller isguiding me with a strong hand so long as we're heading somewhere interesting. I suppose a large part of it is the unspoken contractyou make with the player at the beginning of the game. If you imply that they will have complete freedom to do whatever they like andgo wherever they wish, and then suddenly they're restricted on all fronts, that's a turn off. If, however, you are up front with the ideathat this is a directed story about a particular person or a particular event a player can be more forgiving with some linearity. I thinkthe thing that you can't compromise on is the idea that the player has some ability to direct their part in the story's events, not withoutlosing that part of the game that makes it an RPG. How they react, if not always everything they do. A player may not need to makechoices about every single thing in the game, but when those choices are made the game should acknowledge them... Andoccasionally those choices should result in some kind of significant consequence. Or why am I bothering? Why give me thosechoices in the first place if all you wanted to do was tell me YOUR story?

As for the "epic or low-key" question... Definitely epic, though I would say that "epic" itself is such a loaded word. It's so easy tomake fun of, since you can always conjure up images of some overblown fantasy melodrama. Epic doesn't have to mean trite or

make fun of, since you can always conjure up images of some overblown fantasy melodrama. Epic doesn't have to mean trite orcliché. You don't have to be the Chosen One. To me it means simply that the stakes are really high. What you're doing is important. Iknow some people have played so many games that they say they're so DONE with epic, they want to veer completely in the otherdirection -- but I don't want to just be "some guy" who isn't doing anything more important than surviving. I'm sure you could craft avery good story around just being "some guy", but given my druthers I would prefer the epic over the ordinary any day.

In terms of what are my own storytelling trademarks -- I'm not sure. Storytelling when you have a large team to work with isn't a solocraft, after all. How much of the story is mine as opposed to the team's? There are certain trademarks of mine that exist on a smallerlevel, plots I keep revisiting or character types I like a lot. Overall I'd say I am most at home when writing characters, humourousbanter and romance especially. Those are the toughest to get right.

* * *

Alan Miranda

My personal preference is to create epic stories, and hence our mission statement at Ossian Studios to create epic adventures. Thatdoesn’t equate to “epic level” adventures, because you can have relatively epic adventures for any character level (both Baldur’s Gateand Throne of Bhaal were epic in their own right). I think everything in life is a balance between different ends of a spectrum,because too much of any one aspect can ruin an experience. For example, people have often asked us whether Mysteries ofWestgate is more role-playing or combat-centric, and we always reply that it’s somewhere in the middle and contains the best ofboth.

With regard to linear vs non-linear, again, I feel that somewhere in between is best because going to the extremes has the potential toeither constrict or lose players. As a player, I love expansive worlds to explore, but without something to help guide me down themain path, I can easily lose myself in killing yet another random creature in another nameless cave, and I think that really watersdown the core emotional experience the game is trying to get across. So with Ossian’s games, we aim to have a strong main story,while still letting people play the game in a non-linear fashion, but without letting them get lost.

I don’t think removing control from the player in an RPG is usually a good idea. I feel player empowerment (i.e., the freedom ofchoice) is a very important factor in making players feel invested in a game. So no-win scenarios shouldn’t be used, and instanceslike “you were captured while sleeping” shouldn’t be used often. A better way is to face players with important decisions and thenhandle these as different branches in your story. To do that well, so that players are surprised at the outcomes of their choices, youneed to have a multidimensional story, where the full motivations of characters (which should always be logical) are obscured until theend. There’s nothing as disappointing to me, either in games or movies, as a one-dimensional story that goes from point A to point Bas blatantly as a toddler train ride.

* * *

Luke Scull

This may sound like a cop-out, but I think there's room for all the above approaches. Some players absolutely hate having controltaken from their character, but if it's necessary to do this to set up a fantastic plot that couldn't be achieved any other way, I'm finewith it as long as it's believable and isn't repeated. Once is probably okay. And it has to be believable, so a 1st-level character beingambushed and taken prisoner is fine, a 10th level character not so much.

ambushed and taken prisoner is fine, a 10th level character not so much.

I think you'll always get better results, from a narrative point of view, with a linear approach to the story. It's just easier to tell a betterstory when you know exactly how things are going to play out. That said, these games are called role-playing games rather thaninteractive novels for a reason. Generally the formula that seems to work best is to split the critical path between linear segments (todrive the story forward) and non-linear segments that let the player tackle things in any order they like. Ideally, the critical path willplay out differently depending on what choices and decisions the player makes.

Obviously there's a massive difference between how, say, Final Fantasy works and how Oblivion works. But the above approach isthe kind that works best for the type of RPG I enjoy, because it provides the best balance between a strong narrative and involving,interactive gameplay.

I prefer my games epic, I must confess. And by epic, I mean properly epic, as opposed to the lesser varieties of epic that are sopopular with PR folk and are attached to anything and everything nowadays. And before you roll your eyes, I'll tell you why.

I've played dozens of CRPGs and literally hundreds of NWN modules. After a while, the low-level grind becomes intolerably boring.You're a farmer's child sent to rescue the lost cow. You're an aspiring adventurer who wants to prove yourself by killing a cave full ofgoblins. The village is being attacked by a bunch of random weenies and you're the only survivor. Yadda yadda. I've seen it a milliontimes. Planescape: Torment was a brilliant exception, but normally these things are a chore. They don't have to be. However, you'reasking designers to step outside their comfort zone and start writing like G R R Martin -- it doesn't normally happen.

That doesn't mean these low-key adventures can't be fun, but on balance, they are a heck of a lot less fun than an epic adventure. Ican generate my own enthusiasm for the latter while, for the former, I'm relying on the writer to be unusually talented and writescenarios and characters that I care about.

I love stories that subvert expectations. Most CRPGs are far too predictable for their own good. G R R Martin is a good example ofhow modern fantasy storytelling has started to evolve. You know, people acting in a semi-realistic manner and a story growingorganically rather than following a ridiculously predictable structure. You don't want to push it too far and start looking like you'repulling stuff out of your ass as you go, but keeping the story unpredictable and surprising goes a long way towards appeasing theever-more-jaded fanbase.

* * *

Mat Jobe

Ideally you'd have a storyline that's epic and compelling, but also allows the player the freedom to forge their own path. Unfortunately,those goals are often at odds. It's easy enough to think of how a storyline might branch in different directions, but much harder (not tomention time-consuming) to make sure each branch is equally compelling.

Given that, my preference is for a relatively linear main story combined with a lot of optional sidequests. As a designer, this sort ofstructure allows you to focus on making each story -- whether it's the game's critical path or a minor sidequest -- as good as it can be,while still giving the player plenty of freedom. Even if it's just the freedom to do things in a different order, or not do some things at all,I still think that's rewarding for the player.

I also think this helps create the sense of a living, breathing game world. If every area you visit and every character you talk to isrelated to the main storyline, you start to get the sensation of being an actor on a stage. I prefer a more realistic "sandbox"environment where there are plenty of things going on that are unrelated, or only tangentially related, to the main story.

* * *

Russ Davis

When developing a story, I try to start by determining what is happening before the player even arrives. In other words, I don’t startfrom the player’s perspective but rather from the perspective of the other characters (often the antagonist, but sometimes othercharacters). One of the questions I always ask myself when I’m fully in control of the story is “what would happen if the player didn’tshow up and do the hero thing?” This helps me develop “smart” plans for the enemies that have fewer obvious holes. Once I knowwhat those characters are doing, it is then much easier for me to plan what the hero would see and what they would discover andwhen they would discover it after they arrive on the scene.

This is a long way to say that the dastardly plans I devise for the enemies dictate the way the story develops. While I prefer open-ended adventures when it makes sense, I’m not against having linearity when called for, and it often is for me, especially as theenemy’s plans come ever closer to fruition. When some devious plot needs to be defeated, I can’t very well allow the player todecide they want to go explore the back woods somewhere instead. At some point, freedom must yield to story.

As for your other questions, my own personal preference is for low-powered, low-key adventures, as those are just the levels I enjoyplaying more myself. I’ve become less of a power-gamer and more of a story-gamer as I’ve aged. Finally, the story trumpseverything for me. If I need to take control of the player for (very) brief periods to drive it forward, then I do. However, I try very hardto keep this to a minimum or to do so at a point before the module opens (i.e., as a plot hook to get things kicked off). Many peopleare rightfully annoyed when a role-playing game does not allow them to play a role, and doing this too often is most likely the result ofa weak story that should be tweaked.

* * *

Jeff Vogel

I've done all of them. I always write the sort of game I would enjoy playing in that particular year. Sometimes it's open ended andsometimes it's linear. I change it up frequently because that helps me to come up with new ideas.

* * *

Thomas Riegsecker

I enjoy a non-linear game with a personal storyline. I don't mind being the savior of the world as long as I have a sense of "personalinvestment" in what is happening. While it's somewhat difficult to have an RPG storyline that doesn't involve some sort of an epic,end-of-the-world plot, you can have a personal subplot that does not assume failure on the players part if they don't chose to save theworld. This is the type of thought process that goes into our storylines.

It's also a fact that you cannot have a true "non-linear storyline". That in itself is an oxymoron since a story must be linear to makesense. However, you can break that story into segments separated by goals and let the player figure out for themselves how to reachthose goals. Stories can then branch depending on how goals are met. The important thing is to let players feel a sense of freedom asthey go from point to point- the absolute worst scenario you can give your customers is a concrete storyline with railroaded, one-waymap designs.

* * *

Jay Barnson

Whatever works for the game, really. Many of my favorite games are wide-open "sandbox" games with very little story to speak of,and some of my favorites were tightly scripted, linear stories.

I don't know if I'd want a trademark there. I think there are too many possibilities to explore in combining gameplay and story to tryand settle on one thing right now. This aspect of our field is still in its infancy.

* * *

Jason Compton

Everybody wants to rule the world, so the song tells us, but first they must save it. It turns out that "saving the world as I know it",aside from providing a very clear and present danger for the player to tackle, is something which many, many different personalityconcepts for a player character can get behind. "Well, *my* guy doesn't want to play *your* game" is an objection a CRPG plotter hasto get past, so threatening the Imminent Destruction Of All is one handy way to get past that issue and get on with the individual plotlines which make up the whole.

I would actually very much like to do CRPGs at some point which are more condensed and personal in scope. These concepts wouldhave far less at stake, where the final outcome may only truly matter to a few of the participants and their victims and/orbeneficiaries. The tongue-in-cheek code name for one such game is "Alassa's Big Night Out", and I've scribbled down notes for asmall game which would extend the story of one of our serial stories as well, from the point of view of one or more of the centralcharacters. And I don't mean a game which starts out sending you on a flower-picking quest when you then *discover* that you mustsave the world, I mean one with no swerves, no mysterious conspiracies revealed in chapter 3 that you stumble into—just one withpersonal stakes.

With TBH we decided to go with a game that would allow more flexibility and freedom in the personal definition of the player character—who, by the way, is threatened with the Imminent Destruction Of All. Just in case you were thinking that your character would preferto stay in bed and not play the game after all.

I don't mind taking control from the player in some ways. It simply can't be helped in many situations. Sometimes we just can't let youlook in their medicine cabinet. Sometimes you just can't open the door right now. Sometimes you just can't shoot this person in theface, because it would break a plot-critical quest in a way that there's no sensible storytelling fix for on our side. I prefer avoiding thiswhenever possible, but in a way I think the greater danger is creating dissatisfaction with unique and clever storyline resolutionswhich upon reflection make the player feel even more constrained and limited.

which upon reflection make the player feel even more constrained and limited.

For instance, consider a quest which involves convincing Person A to do something for you. Let's say we offer you a resolution thatinvolves killing Peasant B and stuffing B's body in A's closet, then blackmailing A over this situation. If this isn't handled just right,players start asking, "But, sir, why can't I just stuff peasants in every closet in the game to resolve other quests? Surely nobody elsein town wants to be framed for murder!" There has to be a compelling reason why A is uniquely susceptible to this type of outcome—or the designers have to be prepared to write an awful lot of "I have hidden a body in your home" dialogue. Again, there are goodreasons the tried and true "kill somebody special for me" or "employ your dialogue skills upon me" resolutions endure and thrive.

Trademarks? I can only hope that our mark will be providing a gameworld and characters good enough to come back to again andagain.

* * *

Gareth Fouche

I like to think of the my game's storyline not as one continuous, linear path but as a series of intertwining smaller strands, each pullingat and straining against the others. Even though these strands may not be very significant by themselves when you step back andlook at them from a distance they form a larger pattern, a greater whole. Like a spiderweb. If you take the spiderweb analogy furtherthe player is then the bug that flies into that web. While they may only initially touch one single strand their movement within the webwill draw them into contact with further strands, ensnaring them further and further into the greater plot. And as they tug at the strandsof the web they pull some threads into new positions while completely severing others.

Following this analogy I would definately say I favour non-linear storylines. In fact I have designed the plot in Scars of War so thatstrands tying into the main plot can be found and picked up on in many locations and from many different characters/factions. So thateven if the player chooses to wander off and explore the world of faction politics they can still pick up a plot thread somewhere elseand it will lead them towards the heart of the story. I'm hoping that my plot weaving is good enough that they will find themselvesdrawn in whichever path they choose to follow. I think this type of plot design suits computer games more than a linear narrativedoes since a linear narrative runs the risk of clashing with the player's desire to forge his own path.

As for epic or low key, well, can I cop-out and say neither? Or both? Epic is a bit of a buzzword these days, it tends to mean savingthe world. I don't generally care for the standard implementations of such a plot, most often they are clumsy and just seem ratherforced on the player, like you're a teenager wearing your fathers old tuxedo. A bit too tight around the shoulders, a bit too long in thearms, never quite a comfortable fit. Which isn't to say that kind of plot can't be done well, it most certainly can, but it requires a lot ofskill and a fair amount of subtelty to pull off in a believable manner. What I don't generally like is any plot with strong overtones ofYour Awesome Destiny (Fill In Your Name Here). I've never really seen that done in a way that doesn't feel hackneyed and cheap.

While I wouldn't say my plots are chaotic, I would call them dynamic, perhaps somewhat unpredictable. I like to set up a whole rangeof competing forces held in some sort of precarious balance then hurl the player(s), as wildcards, into the middle of it all and and seewhat happens. I like the sense of dynamic tension that creates. Even though the individual path taken through the storyline may varywildly from player to player I try to ensure that they will encounter enough plot threads that a sense of the greater narrative emerges.

I don't like to take control away from the player really. Certainly I can brute force them into a decision, for instance if you resist arrestthe guards will attempt to beat you into submission. But the player should never feel like someone has taken away control of their

the guards will attempt to beat you into submission. But the player should never feel like someone has taken away control of theircharacter. Accepting odds that are stacked against you is fine, having the game just assume that you accept them is disempowering.Let them decide it they want to put up a fight, even if just so they can learn it is a hopeless cause.

My storytelling trademarks, well, I'm hoping I will become known for plots that you can view from multiple directions, with a strongfocus on characters. I tend to build my stories around interacting with characters, their motivations, goals and histories rather thansome object or event. So "betrayal and redemption" rather than "collect the 5 pieces of the staff that will save the world". And bymulti-dimensional I mean that you can view the story from more than one side. Take your typical RPG plot of good versus evil. Evensomething that simple has two sides, yes? But generally we don't get to play along the evil path. Why can't we join the dark side?Why can't we give the ring to Sauron? What if I want to accept the villain's offer of money and power in exchange for serving him? Itrequires a specific type of plot and game design but I think it is more than worth it. In many games that offer faction dynamics Ipersonally tend to find that side of things more compelling than the main plot. But what if we can have the best of both worlds, if thefaction dynamics are a key element of the main storyline? The thought excites me as a player, hopefully it will excite those who playScars of War.

* * *

Michal Madej

The Witcher has definitely already introduced a few new or uncommon features to the computer RPG genre. First of all we introduceda fresh approach to classical fantasy, with a much more mature theme, deeply developed NPC personalities and even somecontemporary problems, instead of the tiresome Good vs. Evil cliché. Another element was redesigning the idea of “choice," which inmy opinion is the most crucial element in the genre. I think people play RPGs because they want to feel that they have freedom ofchoice; they love making all kinds of decisions and observing how they affect story and gameplay. That's why we came up with theidea of offering choices with delayed results that are hard to cheat with the save/load trick. Additionally we employed lots ofcutscenes that tell the story in a cinematic way, especially flashback cutscenes that remind the player of their decisions and theoutcomes. As for everything else, we tried to use what is most appropriate for that part of the story, and we try to stay away from anykind of dogma.

Summarizing, I'm sure The Witcher introduced several RPG trademark elements – a mature fantasy world, contemporary elements,morally ambiguous decisions, delayed results, flashback cutscenes and cinematic storytelling.

* * *

Leonard Boyarsky

It is all about what serves the story and the game you're making. You can never tell what combination of story and setting will work,and sometimes the most obvious choice is the least interesting. It really has to be about giving the player a great gaming experience,so I think it's a mistake to limit yourself by saying there are things you'll never do. I think when you look at something from a fixedperspective for too long, applying the same methodology to solving different problems, your work will start to feel repetitive. I try toapproach things from as many different angles as possible. I have even made an attempt on occasion to tackle things from directionsI specifically think are wrong just to see if my prejudices are getting in the way of good ideas.

As far as linearity vs non linearity, if you want to tell any kind of story, you need to have a beginning, middle and an end. That doesn't

As far as linearity vs non linearity, if you want to tell any kind of story, you need to have a beginning, middle and an end. That doesn'tmean that there can't be a hundred paths between those points (and variations on those points themselves) but you can't have a storywithout at least some linearity. If you don't have linearity of some sort, you can't build suspense or drama (or even a good joke). Now,the linearity can all be in self contained quests and not build to anything bigger, or the quests can combine in different ways to telldifferent stories, but a story can't have its end happen before its beginning. Unless you're making Memento the videogame.

As far as a 'trademark' goes, I'd have to say that my main focus has always been on creating stories, worlds and characters thatresonate with people on a deeper emotional level. That doesn't necessarily mean heavy, dramatic and serious – humor can resonateas much as drama - but I really want people to become involved with the worlds and stories of the games in a way that they'llremember long after they're done playing. But I don't think you can single out your style of creating the story as something separatefrom the world and the characters. They all need to live and breathe as one entity.

* * *

« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 11:33:55 AM by Vince » Logged

StarwarsArtisan

Posts: 601

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 07:29:18 AM »

These are really interesting to read, I'm glad most of the devs chose to be fairly wordy in their response. There's also a great mix ofdevs, and it's nice to read about different approaches and likes/dislikes.

It also saddens me (yet again) that George Ziets isn't with Obsidian anymore. While I think I lean slightly more towards the Fallouttype of non-linearity, I think George *really* nailed what he describes as semi-linearity with MotB. A great mix of a fairly heavy story(with plenty of narrative), yet it feels playerdriven enough and has plenty of opportunities for the player to direct where things aregoing, and how things end. I really hope we get to see him working on a nice cRPG again sometime in the future.

I think my personal views coincide the most with Josh Sawyers as he describes them here, and again makes me wish I could'veplayed a finished Van Buren.

These are great Vince, thanks for making it happen.

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Brother NoneCraftsman

Posts: 275

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 01:18:23 AM »

Interesting in that while they all have personal preferences, they agree on the overall premise more or less. Not that I disagree, thebalance of non-linear and linear is a sensible premise, but you wouldn't say there's such agreement on it when you see the wide

balance of non-linear and linear is a sensible premise, but you wouldn't say there's such agreement on it when you see the widevariety of types of storytelling cRPGs.

Can't say I agree on the epic storytelling bit. I always associate big-story p&p sessions with munchkinism...perhaps not justifiably so,but still...

When I think back to my days playing DSA, it's not the stories where we went up north to recover a gigantic dwarven crystal from anice-queen to stop a dwarf war from happening that were the most fun. Hell, considering the action is basically always the same, it justfeels unconvincing...

It was an adventure in which we were sent out to an old ruined tavern held by goblins and their elf chief. Why? We had to recover ablack cat for a kind lady, who paid a handsome sum. Sounds unlikely, but the strands unfurled (turned out she was a witch, beingblackmailed by the kidnapping of her familiar). Moreover, one little adventure, consisting only of trips to and back from the tavern andthe fight at the tavern, managed to have enough details to make a full story with a satisfyingly difficult fight at the end.

's what I always liked about DSA anyway, it's easy to construct difficult, challenging and satisfying fights and situations with such abroad skill system and with the PCs barely being tougher than the average orc. You'd have to be a pretty high-level PC to - say - takeon 3 experience orcs on your own.

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GarethDeveloper

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Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 02:30:30 AM »

I don't really think the problem is epic or non-epic. Fallout's plot, with the saving the region from the Master, was pretty epic, if youthink about it.

The problem I have is with the context an epic storyline is generally presented to the player in. Most are wrapped in unrealisticmotivations and NPC's reacting in an unbelievable manner. The game excitedly telling you that it is "Your Destiny to Save theWorld!!!" from the very beginning, the king who pins the hopes of the entire kingdom on some farm kid, etc.

Fallout had you kind of reluctantly, accidentally saving the region. Because you got entangled in events while pursuing a very down toearth goal. Your motivations made sense, the context made sense, you didn't have to leave behind your common sense to accept thepremise.

It's all about presentation.

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PavlosNovice

Posts: 21

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 03:59:11 AM »

Quote from: Gareth on May 25, 2008, 02:30:30 AMThe problem I have is with the context an epic storyline is generally presented to the player in. Most are wrapped in unrealistic motivations and NPC's reacting in anunbelievable manner. The game excitedly telling you that it is "Your Destiny to Save the World!!!" from the very beginning, the king who pins the hopes of the entirekingdom on some farm kid, etc.

See, this is why I think that MotB is an example of epic done right. The premise of the story is entirely personal -- the player's curse --but that personal element causes the player to become involved in an age old conflict and an attempt to topple a god. The player isnever told "OMG! It is your quest to kill Kelemvor! Here's a plot coupon." They get dragged into things by their need to survive. Yourcharacter's motivation for the epic quest is entirely primal: the need to survive.

With that in mind, if I had to classify MotB in a genre I'd say it was a survival RPG. Which, hopefully, doesn't make me too mad.

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Brother NoneCraftsman

Posts: 275

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 04:09:56 AM »

Quote from: Gareth on May 25, 2008, 02:30:30 AMI don't really think the problem is epic or non-epic. Fallout's plot, with the saving the region from the Master, was pretty epic, if you think about it.

Yes, it was. It was also a MacGuffin plot. Hell, Fallout's plot - at least the barebones of it - is pretty far down on the list of "the game'sstrong points" and it really isn't intended to be.

Quote from: Gareth on May 25, 2008, 02:30:30 AMThe problem I have is with the context an epic storyline is generally presented to the player in. Most are wrapped in unrealistic motivations and NPC's reacting in anunbelievable manner. The game excitedly telling you that it is "Your Destiny to Save the World!!!" from the very beginning, the king who pins the hopes of the entirekingdom on some farm kid, etc.

Fallout had you kind of reluctantly, accidentally saving the region. Because you got entangled in events while pursuing a very down to earth goal. Your motivationsmade sense, the context made sense, you didn't have to leave behind your common sense to accept the premise.

It's all about presentation.

That is true, but you actually touch on the reason I instinctively hate "epic" - in the PR sense of the word.

Because I feel that - when you look at the bevy of "epic" RPGs in the past 10 years - it all comes down to one thing - a cop-out. Anattempt to cover up a weak story by trying to get a direct hold of the player's ego, and simply hide behind that.

attempt to cover up a weak story by trying to get a direct hold of the player's ego, and simply hide behind that.

All this hopping up and down and slapping one's arms about how epic you are and how you are chosen by ancient magix to kill theeven more ancient foozle is just a way of shouting "you're SPECIAL" at the player, and by shouting this - you're hiding.

Not necessarily consciously, even, but consider this: a story that makes the player uncomfortable will always be a harder sell - harderto tell than a story in which your motives are complex and your actions unimportant. It is simply an easier sell that you are a demigodraised by some old dude in waxkeep and have to kill your brother or whateverz, than to say "hey guy go find the water chip" - and thefirst thing you find when you step out of the vault is the last guy they sent to find the water chip. Want to get back in? "Uh, sorry, doordoesn't work". What a chosen one you are.

Apropos - Fallout's ending. 'nough said. But even Fallout weaves into epic. A better example is - inevitably - PS:T, which is highlypersonalized, internalized and "philosophized". Epic? Not really.

Fallout's approach to epic storytelling is "better", no doubt, but is it easier to sell to the kind of people BioWare sell to, the kind ofpeople Obsidian feels they need to sell to? I don't think so.

That said, I've always snubbed epic plots. I feel the plots of both Star Wars and LotR are weak in their premise. Give me Master andMargarita or Lord of the Flies over either one. Big, overarching drama is just bland, compared to the highly personified.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 04:12:37 AM by Brother None » Logged

GarethDeveloper

Posts: 1080

Indubitably

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 04:59:17 AM »

QuoteAll this hopping up and down and slapping one's arms about how epic you are and how you are chosen by ancient magix to kill the even more ancient foozle is just away of shouting "you're SPECIAL" at the player

True, but I don't know if it is a conscious attempt to hide anything. I think they are just aiming at the young male demographic.Because let's be honest, the majority of the young male market loves having their egos stroked. Hell, so does the older male market

In life, in business, in sport and in games.

I don't think there is anything sneaky in it, it is just aiming for a particular market share which their stats tell them is the biggest. Idon't really have any problem with that market being served, I enjoy having my ego stroked as well at times, but there are othermarkets that are hungry and people such as myself who consider themselves part of many markets.

If the big players choose not to serve those hungry customers, someone else will step up and do it.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 05:00:57 AM by Gareth » Logged

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Wrath of DagonExpert

Posts: 1001

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2008, 10:31:42 PM »

Master & Margarita RPG FTW!

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Hümmelgümpf derBruzzelzwergJourneyman

Posts: 158

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2008, 03:49:30 AM »

Quote from: Brother NoneGive me Master and Margarita

Quote from: Wrath of DagonMaster & Margarita RPG FTW!

<3 Mentioning Gogol is mandatory at this point. An RPG inspired by The Portrait or The Overcoat would be sweet and tyte indeed.

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This is the story of one man's emotional journey through things good and ill, the things that make life worth living, the tears and dessert of existence – that is, it was untilreceiving feedback from focus groups, money men, their yes men and the mystics of marketing, and so now it's about a magic baseball player dating a stripper with aheart of gold who gradually unlocks his ultimate power with the help of an "urban" robot during their quest to defeat an evil samurai sword wielding real estate agent.

Brother NoneCraftsman

Posts: 275

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2008, 05:20:39 PM »

Posts: 275 Quote from: Hümmelgümpf der Bruzzelzwerg on May 27, 2008, 03:49:30 AMQuote from: Brother NoneGive me Master and Margarita

Quote from: Wrath of DagonMaster & Margarita RPG FTW!

<3 Mentioning Gogol is mandatory at this point. An RPG inspired by The Portrait or The Overcoat would be sweet and tyte indeed.

I'd rather see the Nose as an RPG.

Or maybe a detective-style adventure game.

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VinceDeveloper

Posts: 4095

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2008, 12:08:19 PM »

Added Michal Madej, lead designer on The Witcher.

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VinceDeveloper

Posts: 4095

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 11:34:40 AM »

Added Leonard Boyarsky.

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fastpunkApprentice

Posts: 68

Re: Roundtable: Story« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 04:08:19 AM »

I don't know how much influence George Ziets had in MotB's storyline but judging from his answer I'd say a lot, since the answerdescribes quite well the type of story Obsidian went for in said game. Anyway, this roundtable thing was a great idea. Thanks VD!

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