Q&A: China's Scientist Premier In a rare one-on-one interview, Premier Wen Jiabao spoke with Science about China's efforts to ground its economic and

social development in sound science BEIJING— 2008 has been a roller-coaster ride for China and for Premier Wen Jiabao. Recent highs were the spectacular

Olympics and the successful space walk late last month during the Shenzhou-7 mission, a key step toward China’s aspirations of building a space station and sending astronauts to the moon. Lows included the Tibet riot, a devastating earthquake in Sichuan Province, and the tainted-milk scandal.

In 2003, early in his first term as head of China’s government, Wen promoted measures to address the spread of AIDS and the emergence of SARS. His leadership qualities were tested again after the 12 May Wenchuan earthquake. Within hours, Wen was on the scene, rallying rescuers and comforting victims.

Wen led the earthquake response with technical authority few politicians anywhere could match. The Tianjin native studied geological surveying as an undergraduate and geological structure as a graduate student at Beijing Institute of Geology from 1960 to 1968, then spent the next 14 years with Gansu Provincial Geological Bureau in western China. In the 1980s, Wen rose through the ranks of the Communist Party and became vice premier of the State Council, China’s Cabinet, in 1998 and premier in 2003. Wen began a second 5-year term as premier last March.

In a 2-hour conversation with Science Editor-in-Chief Bruce Alberts at the Zhongnanhai leadership compound in the heart of Beijing on 30 September, Wen, 66, spoke candidly and forcefully, without notes, on everything from the role of social and economic development being “the wellspring” of science and technology to cultivating scientific ethics and reducing China’s reliance on fossil fuels. Here is a transcript of the discussion edited for clarity and brevity.

–Hao Xin and Richard Stone Bruce Alberts: It’s a real pleasure to be here. First, I want to start by congratulating your success in space. It’s a

result of your hard work in science and technology for many years, and it was a very important accomplishment. We just published a major article from China that shows that your transgenic cotton, used in your country, has

reduced the need for pesticides also on other crops, not only the cotton but also on other crops in the vicinity. Wen Jiabao: Ten years ago, we did not have this transgenic technology in cotton plants. Back then, the cotton

bollworms would not die even when immersed in pesticides. Since we began the transgenic engineering project in cotton, the plants not only increased their ability to resist bollworms but also increased yield. Therefore, I strongly advocate making great efforts to pursue transgenic engineering. The recent food shortages around the world have further strengthened my belief [in developing such technologies].

B.A.: I’d like to congratulate China for being a real leader in that area. When I was president of the National

Academy of Sciences in the United States, I worked with other academies on several studies to try to get more scientific thinking into the field of agriculture. As you know, in Europe, there’s been a big reaction against transgenic crops, and this has affected the use of this important technology all across Africa as well.

W.J.: Don’t mix transgenic science with trade barriers. That would block the development of science. B.A.: Premier, you were famous all over the world for going to the site of the earthquake as a professional

geologist immediately afterwards and having a great effect on China’s response. Could you tell us more about your response to the earthquake and what you see in the future in the way of earthquake protection for China?

W.J.: When the Wenchuan earthquake occurred on 12 May around 2:28 p.m., I was sitting in my office. Because of the high magnitude and intensity of the earthquake, Beijing shook, too. My instinct felt that it was an earthquake. Many numbers emerged in my mind: earthquake magnitude 8.0, highest intensity 11, population density 300 persons per square kilometer. I instantly knew this disaster would affect a large area and devastation would be severe.

I decided to go to the scene immediately. I understood clearly the importance of the [initial] 72 hours and especially the importance of the first day in saving people’s lives. Simply put, the faster the better.

People need confidence, calm, resolution, and courage. All these need strong leadership. So I set up the command center near the epicenter, on the roadside.

Within 3 days, we mobilized a force of more than 100,000 people and rescued some 80,000 from underneath the rubble. The second thing was to strengthen monitoring of aftershocks, because often it is the inattention to aftershocks that

causes more severe damage than the main shock. This required us to mobilize the residents to leave their homes and to find shelter. At the same time, we needed to provide a large amount of tents.

Thirdly, because of the earthquake’s huge magnitude, there appeared more than 100 quake lakes, the largest of which was Tangjiashan quake lake, which contained 300 million cubic meters of water. A possible bursting of the dammed-up quake lake would endanger large cities such as Mianyang and several million people along the paths of the water. I went to the site of the quake lake many times and, together with engineers and experts, researched technical solutions and decided to solve the problem of quake lake safely and quickly in a scientific way. We have successfully dealt with perhaps the biggest

quake lake in the world--not a single person was injured or died. This earthquake was caused by the Indian tectonic plate subducting northward and the Tibetan plate subducting north

north-east. This quake-hit area was in the Longmenshan fault zone. Our precise measurement shows the horizontal crustal displacement is 1.5 meters near the epicenter. East of the fault line, the ground sunk 70 centimeters, and in hard-hit areas such as Beichuan, three-story buildings completely collapsed and sank under the ground completely.

The fourth task on the agenda was disease prevention. Because we knew the death toll will exceed 80,000, hygiene and disease prevention are very important. We have ensured there was no major disease outbreak after the disaster.

Up to now, there have been more than 33,000 aftershocks, and eight have magnitudes exceeding six. How to revive and rebuild in such a quake-prone region? We must proceed based on the local geological and geographical conditions. We divide the areas to be rebuilt into three categories: areas suitable for reconstruction, areas allowing appropriate reconstruction, and areas for ecological rehabilitation.

This region has an area of more than 100,000 square kilometers and a population of more than 10 million. We need to gradually restore life, production, and ecological function in the region. This is a very arduous task.

B.A.: Will the new buildings that you’re going to rebuild in this area be built in a special way to make them highly

resistant to the future earthquakes? W.J.: Building safety is very important in earthquake-disaster prevention. We must establish building codes in light of

the magnitude and intensity of possible earthquakes in this region. Especially for public buildings such as schools and hospitals, we need to apply even safer standards to reassure parents and make children feel at ease.

B.A.: In the United States, we read every day about what you were doing and the earthquakes--it went on for a

month at least--and every day, we read about the very impressive way in which the government responded and also how people came as volunteers from all over China to try to help. That whole episode gave Americans a very good feeling about China.

W.J.: We put into practice the principle of opening to the outside and announced news about the earthquake in real time to China and also to the world. The reason we did this is also for the people. People would like to know whether there were still aftershocks and when aftershocks would occur. We need to tell them ways to avoid harm and help them properly settle [in shelters].

B.A.: I assume that what you did in the earthquake is related to your new campaign to implement something you

call "the scientific outlook on development." I think most of us don’t understand exactly what that is. Could you explain what the plans are and how Chinese scientists are going to contribute?

W.J.: The first goal of the scientific outlook on development is to put people first. That is, to meet the increasing material and cultural needs of the people through the development of production. That is to enable every individual to enjoy all-rounded development and harmonious development in an equal and free environment.

The second is comprehensive development--namely, the integration of economic development with social development, the integration of economic reform with political reform, the integration of an opening up and inclusive approach with independent innovation, and the integration of advanced civilization with traditional Chinese culture

The third is an integrated and balanced approach, that is to say, we need to resolve the disparities--rich-poor disparity, regional disparity, and urban-rural disparity--in the course of China’s development.

The fourth is sustainable development. That is, to solve the challenges of population, resources, and environmental protection faced by a population of 1.3 billion in the course of modernization. We want to achieve sustainable development by adopting a resource-concerning and environment-friendly approach.

These four goals cannot be achieved without science and technology or without innovations. I wish to share with you some information on how China applies science and technology in rural areas. Firstly, we

spread applicable technologies in rural areas, including improved crop varieties and best practices, applying water-conserving and fertilizer-conserving methods, and increasing yields and efficiency of production. Secondly to boost rural development, we encourage efforts to deliver agricultural science and technology to rural communities and encourage scientific and technological professionals to go to the countryside. Rural areas need science and technology, as well as large numbers of professionals. In this respect, the Internet will have a very big role to play: It can help spread scientific knowledge and help the farmers sell their agricultural produce. Thirdly, we promote social progress in rural areas. We make a particular effort to make 9-year universal education freely available in rural areas.

We have already achieved this goal and we also provide free textbooks to the pupils and give allowances to boarding students in poor areas. We will introduce a system to provide scholarships and aids to students attending rural high schools, and vocational schools are entirely free.

There’s a lot that science and technology can do in rural areas. For example, using methane and solar power to generate electricity is a booming industry.

B.A.: May I turn to the issue of your attempts to create this more innovative system, which, of course, means you

must attract innovative, talented people to China and train your own people to be innovative as well as smart. They have to be creative and innovative. How is that going? I know you have a very active program to do that, and what are

your plans for the future? W.J.: This has two aspects. On the one hand, we need to cultivate our own innovative talents in large numbers. Firstly,

we need to start with children, to help them develop independent thinking from a young age. So when they enter secondary schools and universities, they will be able to develop creative thinking and critical thinking in a free environment. I often say that to raise a question or to discover a problem is more important than solving a problem. This is exactly the kind of talents we need.

Secondly, we also need to integrate closely science and technology with economic and social development, because science and technology only finds its wellspring in economic and social development. That’s why we strongly promote cooperation among industrial, academic, and research communities.

Thirdly, our scientists need to cultivate scientific ethics; most importantly, they need to uphold the truth, seek truth from facts, be bold in innovation and tolerant to failure. I have no doubt at all that only a scientific spirit and a commitment to seeking truth from facts can save China.

On the other hand, we need to attract and bring in talents from other countries. We hold fast the policy of opening up in the long run. And to bring in the best brainpower and scientific and technological talents through opening up is most important.

From this perspective, scientists can leap over barriers of ideology and national boundaries to serve all of humanity. We will certainly create a good environment for foreign scientists to work in China. But I don’t believe this is the main purpose. We need to make them feel that they have the right conditions to develop their careers in China, that they are respected by China, and that the results of their work are respected by China. This will need us to protect their independent creative spirits and intellectual-property rights.

B.A.: In the United States, we often talk about the fact that the real innovation, if we look backwards, comes from

fundamental science, basic science, that was done 20 to 25 years earlier. And we worry that without enough support for basic science--that is, trying to figure out how the universe works--we won’t have an innovative future. And, of course, this is the area where scientists, all around the world, can collaborate very, very easily because it’s on fundamental issues that have no intellectual property, it’s completely open, creating this great mission of increasing humankind’s understanding of the world.

When I visited MOST, the Ministry of Science and Technology, I learned that China’s investment in what we call basic research has been fixed at 5% of total research investment--that’s at least what I was told. Do you think that is the right number?

W.J.: Personally, I attach great importance to research in fundamental sciences because I believe that no applied or developmental research can do without basic research as the wellspring and driving force. But, in this world of ours, often because of material gains and immediate interests, it is easy to neglect basic research. In recent years, we have continuously increased the level of support, but I think the (investment) ratio is still insufficient.

B.A.: My experience tells me that fundamental science is a wonderful way to train your best young scientists--it

creates a wonderful group of talent, and after they do that, they can go on and do better applied science. W.J.: You’re right. Chinese youth, especially students, have an advantage in engaging in basic research, because they

are diligent, they are focused and very dedicated. B.A.: I myself have had many Chinese students in the United States and postdoctoral fellows, and they are now

close friends. One of the things that I think is very impressive about China is the extent to which these Chinese-Americans now feel a great sense of belonging also to China. As you know, hopefully most of them come back to try to help China every year. There’s a very effective organization of Chinese scientists in the United States dedicated to helping China develop its own science. This is unusual; other countries do not have this kind of loyalty of their scientists back to their homeland.

W.J.: Our policy is to let them come and go freely. They can serve the motherland in different ways. B.A.: The ones who stay in the United States are a wonderful tie between our two countries because they’re

widely respected people, their children are now Americans, many of them, and I think it’s a great investment for the future of peace in the world--that we have these Chinese, both in China but also in America, communicating across these boundaries.

W.J.: We impose no restrictions on them and adopt a welcoming attitude. B.A.: As you probably know, the National Institutes of Health has a very strong emphasis lately on supporting

innovative young scientists. I met with many wonderful young scientists in China already, both students and young faculty, and having those kinds of opportunities would be very encouraging for them.

W.J.: We should place importance on young scientists. I should say that we haven’t done enough in this respect. When it comes to science, we shouldn’t go by ranks and seniority. We need to encourage the young to surpass the older generation. In the future, we will definitely increase support for young scientists.

B.A.: Your response to the milk crisis was very impressive, and it still needs, of course, a lot of attention. That terrible crisis awakens the need for more efforts in food safety, more broadly. Do you have new plans for your food-safety protection in China?

W.J.: We want to do three things. First, we want to deal with this milk incident seriously and conscientiously and to learn deep lessons from it. Second, we want to study and formulate plans to revive the Chinese food industry. Third, we want to strengthen our legislation, that is, to use laws to govern and monitor every step from the field to the dining table.

We feel great sorrow about the milk incident. We feel that although problems occurred at the companies, the government also has a responsibility. The important steps in making milk products--production of raw milk, collection, transportation, processing, and making formula—all need to have clear standards and testing requirements and corresponding responsibilities, up to legal responsibilities.

I once again solemnly emphasize that no one should ever pursue temporary economic development in exchange for people’s lives and health. I’d also like to assure you that my government will surely lead the people to overcome the difficulties caused by this milk incident and to make a big difference in China’s food industry. All food, must meet international standards. Exported food must also meet the standards of importing countries. We have decided that the Ministry of Health will have main oversight responsibility for food safety.

B.A.: There’s another very important area in which scientists and engineers must collaborate all over the world,

and that, of course, is in developing better ways to use and obtain energy. Of course, we have a world crisis with greenhouse gases and shortages of resources. What we do in China and the United States will be central with regard to how we treat this planet we’re on and make sure that we don’t destroy it. What are China’s plans now, for energy usage and development?

W.J.: China is a main energy consumer and, therefore, is also a big greenhouse gas emitter. Therefore, a major task before us is to conserve energy, reduce emissions, and protect the environment better.

We must use energy resources rationally and must conserve. This needs us to adjust our economic structure, transform the model of development, to make economic development more dependent on progress of science and technology and the quality of the work force.

We need to take strong measures, including economic, legal, and administrative measures when necessary, to restrict the expansion of high energy consuming and heavily polluting enterprises and encourage the development of energy conserving and environmentally friendly enterprises.

Now every year, China produces about 180 million tons of crude oil and imports about 170 million tons. China’s dependency on foreign oil is almost 50%. China’s coal production exceeds 2.5 billion tons a year. This kind of huge consumption of energy, especially nonrenewable fossil fuel, will not be sustainable.

We have established a goal, that our GDP [gross domestic product] growth every year must be accompanied by a 4% decrease in energy consumption and a 2% reduction in COD [chemical oxygen demand] and sulfur dioxide emissions every year.

We will also adopt various measures to reduce the use of oil and coal in order to reduce the emission of greenhouse gases, including energy-conserving technologies and carbon-capture technologies.

We have only been industrializing for several decades, while developed countries have been on this road for over 200 years. But we will shoulder our due responsibilities, namely, the common but differentiated responsibilities set forth in the UNFCCC [United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change] and the Kyoto Protocol.

B.A.: I think this area is so important for the whole world. And certainly, the U.S. and China have a special role

to play by working together. I wonder if we could imagine a really large-scale joint effort on issues like carbon capture, which need to be worked on intensively. I know we’re working on that in the United States, you’re working on it in China, but I wonder whether working closely together on some of these things might make progress more rapid. It would also be a great symbol for the world that we are seriously, both of us, taking this issue to heart and are really going to do something about it.

W.J.: China and the United States have just signed the Ten-Year Energy and Environmental Cooperation Framework. This is a new highlight in our bilateral cooperation.

We strengthen our cooperation and send a message to the world: We will make joint efforts to protect our common habitat.

No matter what the election results in the United States, we are willing to continue to strengthen cooperation with the American side.

B.A.: Another more broad area where I think we can be effective is in using science for diplomacy. Scientists from

all nations can work together effectively, even when their governments don’t agree. I wonder if there is an enhanced role you might seek for cooperation of scientists, including China and the United States, with interacting with North Korean scientists who seem to be so isolated and whether building new bridges to North Korea that way, through our scientific communities, might help in the cause of world peace.

W.J.: I believe that’s entirely possible. Scientists from all over the world share the same desires and characteristics in their pursuit of scientific research, respect for science, and seeking truth through facts. Strengthening their collaboration and

association will certainly make it easier to establish common consensus and mutual trust. Second, the work scientists do has become increasingly relevant to economic and social development and everyday life

of people. For instance, the Internet. Therefore, interactions between scientists can help promote exchange and cooperation in economic and social realms between countries. More scientific language and less diplomatic rhetoric could make this world even better.