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Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2013

T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

HANSARD

Douglas, Tuesday, 15th October 2013

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:

Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office. Supplementary material

subsequently made available following Questions for Oral Answer is published separately on the Tynwald website, www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Hansard Appendix

Volume 131, No. 1

ISSN 1742-2256

http://www.tynwald.org.im/

http://www.tynwald.org.im/Official

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER 2013

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Present:

The President of Tynwald (Hon. C M Christian)

In the Council: The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. R M E Paterson),

The Acting Attorney General (Mr J Quinn), Mr R P Braidwood, Mr D M W Butt, Mr M R Coleman, Mr C G Corkish MBE,

Mr E A Crowe, Mr A F Downie OBE, Mr J R Turner and Mr T P Wild with Mr J D C King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff);

The Chief Minister (Hon. A R Bell) (Ramsey); Hon. D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Mr L I Singer (Ramsey);

Hon. W E Teare (Ayre); Mr A L Cannan (Michael); Hon. T M Crookall (Peel); Mr P Karran, Mr Z Hall and Mr D J Quirk (Onchan);

Mr R H Quayle (Middle); Mr J R Houghton and Mr R W Henderson (Douglas North); Hon. D C Cretney and Mrs K J Beecroft (Douglas South);

Hon. C R Robertshaw and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Hon. J P Shimmin and Mr C C Thomas (Douglas West);

Mr R A Ronan (Castletown); Hon. G D Cregeen (Malew and Santon); Hon. J P Watterson, Mr L D Skelly and Hon. P A Gawne (Rushen);

with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.


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Business transacted

Leave of absence granted .................................................................................................... 7

Papers laid before the Court ................................................................................................ 7

Procedural – Error on Supplementary Order Paper ............................................................ 10

Bills for signature ............................................................................................................... 10

Questions for Oral Answer ....................................................................................................... 10

Procedural – Question 3 withdrawn and Question 8 redirected ......................................... 10

1. Chief Secretary – Correspondence ................................................................................. 11

2. Rebalancing programme – Statement on progress ......................................................... 12

3. Progress on rebalancing programme – Question withdrawn .......................................... 16

4. VAT agreement negotiations – Advance meetings .......................................................... 16

5. National Health Service – Government priorities ............................................................ 19

6. Estate Agents and Landlords Bill – Decision not to pursue .............................................. 23

7. Public sector pension schemes – Affordability ................................................................ 25

8. Banking sector – Status and strength ............................................................................. 29

9. External consultants – Reasons for employing ................................................................ 32

10. Airlines – Meetings held since July ............................................................................... 33

11. Central Douglas Masterplan Committee – Role, membership and budget .................... 36

12-13. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 5th Assessment Report – Statement on findings; actions to be taken .............................................................................................. 41

14. Noble’s Hospital – Arrangements for feeding patients .................................................. 45

15. Primary care in the community – Current policy ........................................................... 48

16. Audiology – Ramsey District Cottage Hospital and Thie Rosien ..................................... 51

17. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Terms of Reference ....................................... 53

18. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Timetable ...................................................... 54

Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to complete Question Paper – Motion carried........... 56

The Court adjourned at 1.00 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m. ...................................... 57

19. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Publication of findings and interim reports .... 57

20. Noble’s Hospital – New or revised policies, procedures and initiatives ......................... 59

21. Doctors and consultants – Termination of employment ............................................... 61

22. Health Service – Unresolved complaints ....................................................................... 64

23. Independent Review Body Annual Report – Publication and DoH response .................. 65

24. Average cost data – Reason for not collecting .............................................................. 66


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25. Fire Safety Bill – Date for First Reading ......................................................................... 68

Welcome to His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor.......................................................... 70

26. Illegal drugs – Government’s stance ............................................................................. 70

27. Governor’s Hill – Road surface dressing programme ..................................................... 71

28. Flight routes – Impact of changes and actions to mitigate ............................................ 74

29. Douglas Town Centre Parking Study and Parking Policy Development Options – Publication of final draft ..................................................................................................... 76

30. Local authority tenants – Rent increases ...................................................................... 78

31. Long-term unemployment – Changes to benefits ......................................................... 81

32. Social Services Act 2011 – Introduction and implications of any delay .......................... 83

33. Louis Group – Complaints to the Financial Services Ombudsman Scheme..................... 85

34. Payday lenders – Proposed regulations ........................................................................ 86

Announcement of Royal Assent ......................................................................................... 89

Questions for Written Answer .................................................................................................. 89

35. Government’s legislative programme – Changes in published list; reasons ................... 89

36. Walney Extension Offshore Wind Farm Development – Planning inquiry; representations made by IoM Government ........................................................................ 89

37. Council of Ministers – Collective responsibility ............................................................. 90

38. Mortgage arrears – Provision of information ................................................................ 91

39. Income Tax Division – Checking and collection of contributions .................................... 92

40. Pinewood Shepperton plc – Annual Report; consultancy statement ............................. 92

41. VAT payments 2008-09 – Reduction each year ............................................................. 93

42. Cost of living – Comparison with UK average ................................................................ 93

43. TT Races – Red-flagging for medical emergency; person responsible ............................ 93

44. Dogs on school grounds – Minister’s policy .................................................................. 94

45. Medical locum and other agency staff – Salary costs; estimated Tax and NI paid .......... 95

46. Jurby Health and Community Centre – Running costs; number of patients treated ....... 95

47. Noble’s Hospital – In-patient costs per day ................................................................... 96

48. Court and prison private security – Change of provider; impact on local employment .. 99

49. Summerland site – Current status; Government plans .................................................. 99

50. Properties rented by Government – Details, total cost and future plans ..................... 100

51. Land and facilities rented by Government/Boards – Details ........................................ 101

52. Children and Families Social Services – Contacts and referrals; details ........................ 101

53. Glenside site – Condition of buildings; maintenance details ........................................ 102

54. Children and Families Social Services – Details of referrals .......................................... 103

55. Children and Families Social Services – Number of referrals ....................................... 103

56. Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2013 – Purpose; subsequent use ................................................................................................. 104

57. Planning application for children’s day care premises – Government involvement ..... 105


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Order of the Day ..................................................................................................................... 106

3. Government progress over the last year and priorities for the year ahead – Statement by the Chief Minister ............................................................................................................ 106

The Court adjourned at 5.20 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.50 p.m. .................................... 124

4. PAC Report on the Commercialisation of the TT – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury .......................................................................................................................... 124

Procedural ....................................................................................................................... 125

25. Regulation of Care Bill 2012 – Motion carried............................................................. 126

32. Income Tax Act 1970 – Taxes (International Arrangements) Order 2013 approved ..... 127

Bill for signature – Regulation of Care Bill 2012 ................................................................ 130

5. Extension to Neonatal Unit, Noble’s Hospital – Expenditure approved ......................... 131

6. Laxey MER Station Relay Works – Expenditure approved ............................................. 135

7. Ecclesiastical Committee – Draft Churchwardens Measure (Isle of Man) – Report received and recommendation approved ....................................................................................... 140

8. Ecclesiastical Committee – Draft Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure (Isle of Man) – Report received and recommendation approved ............................................................. 141

9. Public Accounts Committee – Handling by the Manx Authorities of the Case of Dr Dirk Hoehmann – Report received and recommendations approved ....................................... 142

10.-12. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 – European Union (Al-Qaida Sanctions) Order 2013 approved – European Union (North Korea Sanctions) Order 2013 approved – European Union (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 approved................................ 145

13.-14. Sea Fisheries Act 1971 – Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) Byelaws 2013 approved – Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) (No. 2) Byelaws 2013 approved ...................................................................... 146

15. Plant Health Act 1983 – Plant Health (Forestry) Order 2013 approved........................ 146

Announcement of Royal Assent ....................................................................................... 147

16. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 – Draft European Union (Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies) Order 2013 approved ...................................................... 147

17. Companies Act 1931 – Companies (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 approved ................ 148

18. Registration of Business Names Acts 1918 and 1954 – Registration of Business Names (Fees and Duties) Rules 2013 approved............................................................................ 150

19. Partnership Act 1909 – Partnership (Fees) Rules 2013 approved ................................ 151

20. Companies Act 1931 – Companies (Transfer of Domicile) (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 approved ......................................................................................................................... 151

21. Fees and Duties Act 1989 – Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) Order 2013 approved ......................................................................................................................... 152

22. Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 – Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering – Exceptions to Overseas Conduct Defence) Order 2013 approved ........................................................... 152

23. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 3) Order 2013 approved ...................................................................................................... 153

24. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 4) Order 2013 approved ...................................................................................................... 154


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26. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax (Education) Order 2013 approved ....... 155

27. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2013 approved ......................................................................................................................... 156

28. Customs and Excise Acts 1986 – Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2013 approved ................................................................................................................. 157

29. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Export Control (Burma Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 approved .................................................................................. 157

30. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Export Control (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 approved ....................................................................................................... 158

31. Companies Act 1982 – Companies Act 2006 – Recognised Auditors (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2013 approved ....................................................................... 159

33. Minister for Health – Motion of no confidence – Debate commenced ........................ 160

Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete Order Paper ............................................. 178

Minister for Health – Motion of no confidence – Debate concluded – Motion lost ........... 178

Supplementary Order Paper ................................................................................................... 208

1. and 4. Papers laid before the Court .............................................................................. 208

2. Suspension of Standing Order 2.4(1) – Motion carried .................................................. 209

3. Income Tax Act 1970 – Taxes (Mutual Assistance) Order 2013 approved ...................... 211

5. Suspension of Standing Order 2.4(1)– Motion carried .................................................. 212

6. Regulation of Care Act 2013 – Regulation of Care (Boarding School Fees) Regulations 2013 approved ................................................................................................................. 214

House of Keys ......................................................................................................................... 215

Leave of absence granted ................................................................................................ 215

The House adjourned at 11.43 p.m. ......................................................................................... 215


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Tynwald

The Court met at 10.30 a.m.

[MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair]

The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald. The President: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members. Members: Moghrey mie, Madam President. 5 The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayer.

PRAYERS The Lord Bishop

Leave of absence granted

The President: Welcome, Hon. Members, to this new session of Tynwald Court. The following leaves of absence have been given: Mr Ronan, for such time on Wednesday as

he needs to give evidence on a licensing issue; and Mr Downie, for part of Wednesday 10 afternoon.

Papers laid before the Court

The President: We come to laying of papers. The Fisheries Act 2012 (Appointed Day) Order 2013 and the Criminal Injuries Compensation

Scheme 2012-13 have been withdrawn and will not now be laid. I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. 15

The Clerk: I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 1, with the exception of the two the

President has just mentioned. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973

European Union (Al-Qaida Sanctions) Order 2013 [SD No 0271/13] European Union (North Korea Sanctions) Order 2013 [SD No 0333/13] European Union (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 [SD No 0335/13] European Union (Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies) Order 2013 [SD No xxxx/xx]

Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) Byelaws 2013 [SD No 0268/13] Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) (No. 2) Byelaws 2013 [SD No 0317/13]


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Plant Health Act 1983 Plant Health (Forestry) Order 2013 [SD No 0318/13]

Companies Act 1931 Companies (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 [SD No 0242/13] Companies (Transfer of Domicile) (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 [SD No 0247/13]

Registration of Business Names Acts 1918 and 1954 Registration of Business Names (Fees and Duties) Rules 2013 [SD No 0245/13]

Partnership Act 1909 Partnership (Fees) Rules 2013 [SD No 0246/13]

Fees and Duties Act 1989 Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) Order 2013 [SD No 0248/13]

Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering – Exceptions to Overseas Conduct Defence) Order 2013 [SD No 0322/13]

Social Security Act 2000 Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 3) Order 2013 [SD No 0303/13] Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 4) Order 2013 [SD No 0304/13]

Value Added Tax Act 1996 Value Added Tax (Education) Order 2013 [SD No 0281/13] Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2013 [SD No 0288/13]

Customs and Excise Acts 1986 Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2013 [SD No 0294/13]

Customs and Excise Act 1993 Export Control (Burma Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 [SD No 0293/13] Export Control (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 [SD No 0295/13]

Companies Act 1982 Companies Act 2006

Recognised Auditors (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0307/13] Income Tax Act 1970 Taxes (International Arrangements) Order 2013 [SD No 0315/13]

Reports Ecclesiastical Committee First Report 2012-13 – Draft Churchwardens Measure (Isle of Man) [PP No 0117/13] Ecclesiastical Committee Second Report 2012-13 – Draft Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure [PP No 0118/13] Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper Documents subject to negative resolution Ecclesiastical Offices (Terms of Service) Measure 2009

Ecclesiastical Offices (Terms of Service) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0259/13] Ecclesiastical Offices (Repeal) Order 2013 [SD No 0260/13]

European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 Al-Qaida Sanctions Regulations 2013 [SD No 0272/13] European Union (Syria Sanctions) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0336/13] European Union (North Korea Sanctions) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0334/13]

Immigration Act 1971 Immigration (Designation of Travel Bans) (No. 3) Order 2013 [SD No 0273/13]

Companies Act 2006 Companies (Fees, Duties and Penalties) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0243/13]


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Documents subject to no procedure Limited Liability Companies Act 1996

Limited Liability Companies (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 [SD No 0244/13] Foundations Act 2011

Foundations Act Fees [GC No 0041/13] Value Added Tax Act 1996

Value Added Tax (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0319/13] Companies (Beneficial Ownership) Act 2012

Companies (Beneficial Ownership) (Exemptions) Order 2013 [SD No 0235/13] Currency Act 1992

Currency (Christmas Stocking) (50 Pence Coins) Order 2013 [SD No 0110/13] Appointed Day Orders Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011

Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2013 [SD No 0308/13]

Children and Young Persons (Amendment) Act 2013 Children and Young Persons (Amendment) Act 2013 (Appointed Day) Order 2013 [SD No 0323/13]

Standing Orders of Tynwald Court – Revised Edition September 2013 [PP No 0128/13] Standing Orders of the Legislative Council – Updated Edition February 2013 [PP No 0035/13] Standing Orders of the House of Keys – Revised Edition September 2013 [PP No 0129/13] Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme 1995 – As Amended – Updated Edition February 2013 [PP No 0005/13] Reports Council of Ministers Response to the Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts Report on the Handling by the Manx Authorities of the case of Dr Dirk Hoehmann [GD No 0051/13] [This item is relevant to the Public Accounts Committee Report [PP No 0097/13] which is due to be debated at this sitting at Item 10] Council of Ministers Cross-Government Report 2013 [GD No 0045/13] Council of Ministers Tynwald Policy Decisions Report 2013 [GD No 0046/13] Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts – Annual Report 2013-14 [PP No 0130/13] Report of the Civil Service Commission to the Chief Minister 1st April 2012 – 31st March 2013 [GD No 0047/13] Code of Practice on Access to Government Information – Annual Report of the Commissioner for the year 1st September 2012 to 31st August 2013 Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission – Annual Report 2012-13 [GD No 0013/13] Public Sector Pensions Authority – Report to Tynwald – October 2013 [GD No 0050/13] Isle of Man Limited Report and Financial Statements – For the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0015/13] Isle of Man National Transport Limited Report and Financial Statements – For the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0014/13] Economic Policy Review Committee First Report 2013-14 – Open Skies [PP No 0132/13] (In accordance with Tynwald’ s resolution of 18th January 2011 this report will be considered, along with the Government’ s response, no later than the second sitting after this one.) Documents circulated electronically (approval given at the July 2013 sitting of Tynwald) Manx Electricity Authority Annual Report and Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2013 Isle of Man Water and Sewerage Authority Annual Report and Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2013


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Manx Radio Annual Report and Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0040/13] Isle of Man Post Office Report and Accounts for the fifty-two weeks ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0053/13] Isle of Man Depositors’ Compensation Scheme (in relation to the Banking Business (Compensation of Depositors) Regulations 1991) Annual Report of the Scheme Manager for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0043/13] Depositors’ Compensation Scheme (in relation to the Compensation of Depositors’ Regulations 2008) Annual Report of the Scheme Manager for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0042/13] Isle of Man Financial Supervision Commission Annual Report 2012-13 [GD No 0037/13] Laxey Glen Mills Limited Financial Statements for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0052/13] Isle of Man Government Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0038/13]

Procedural – Error on Supplementary Order Paper

The President: Hon. Members, it has been drawn to your attention already that there is an

error on the Supplementary Order Paper. Papers to be laid before Items 5 and 6 are subject to 20 negative resolution procedure, rather than to no procedure as the Department originally indicated.

Bills for signature

The President: I have to announce that the following Bills are ready for signature: the Sunbeds Bill 2012 and the Flood Risk Management Bill 2013. With the consent of the Court I shall circulate them for signing while we proceed with business. Is that agreed, Hon. Members? 25

Members: Agreed.

Questions for Oral Answer

Procedural – Question 3 withdrawn and Question 8 redirected

The President: We turn to our Question Paper. The Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan, has helpfully withdrawn Question 3, as it

substantially repeats Question 2. 30 After the Question Paper was printed, it was agreed that Question 8 on the Question Paper

would be redirected to the Minister for Economic Development from the Minister for the Treasury. Both Ministers and Mr Henderson, who will ask the Question, agree to this redirection.


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CHIEF MINISTER

1. Chief Secretary – Correspondence

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Chief Minister:

Why the Chief Secretary continually fails to reply to correspondence; and what action he will take to ensure that the Chief Secretary will respond in a timely manner in the future? The President: I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton, to ask 35

Question 1. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 40 The President: Chief Minister to reply. The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, I have discussed this particular matter with

the Chief Secretary and I am content that it is being progressed. The Chief Secretary apologises that, in this specific instance, communication has not met the high standards to which he and his 45 Office aspire. He has given me an assurance that there are systems and processes in place that ensure the majority of correspondence is dealt with in a timely manner, but I have asked that these be reviewed in light of the concerns raised by the Hon. Member.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Houghton. 50 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Chief Minister for his Answer and his concern with this matter, but does he not

think that it is an absolute disgrace that I have got to raise this matter in front of Members of this Hon. Court – other Members who have told me they are being treated equally by the Chief 55 Secretary and that the Chief Secretary had been sent a reminder and still failed to reply? So this is a much more serious breakdown in communications.

I am pleased that the Hon. Chief Minister will note what I have said and take it back to his Chief Secretary so that he can be seen to be doing his job in a much more professional manner, which is expected by this Court. 60

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I do not think it is a disgrace, Madam President. What I would say is it is

disappointing the Hon. Member, who sees me every day, could not have raised it with me in the 65 canteen or at other times when we meet and I could have followed that up quickly at that time if there were any further delays.

I reject totally the imputation of a lack of professionalism on the part of the Chief Secretary. The President: A further supplementary, Mr Houghton. 70 Mr Houghton: A final supplementary, Madam President. This matter is much more serious than the Hon. Chief Minister is stating. If his Chief Secretary

is doing his job – 75 The President: Would you pose a question, sir?


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Mr Houghton: The question is quite positive, Madam President. It is a matter which is most serious, because if the Chief Secretary cannot answer correspondence when his Office is so large, with so many staff, and he has the ability to simply respond by acknowledging a letter… If he can possibly do that and manage to reach that, that would have done, but not even 80 answering the first or the follow-up letter, the follow-up communication, is an absolute disgrace to Members of Tynwald. The Chief Minister is asked to acknowledge this and take it back to his Chief Secretary so the issue does not follow on down to other chief executives in other Departments to do likewise… that of the Chief Secretary, Madam President.

85 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: This is yet another example of mountains and molehills, Madam

President. I note the comments of the Hon. Member and I have nothing further to add. 90 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President.

2. Rebalancing programme – Statement on progress

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Chief Minister:

If he will make a statement on the current Government rebalancing programme; in particular how near the proposed targets the Government is; what the shortfall, if any, is; and what still needs to be achieved by way of savings and cutbacks for the next (a) 12 months (b) 24 months and (c) 36 months?

The President: Question 2. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 95 The President: Chief Minister to reply. The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, the rebalancing programme is intended to

achieve one of the three main aims of this Government, namely to balance the budget by 2015-100 16.

In the first year, 2012-13, we forecast a £55 million deficit which was to be met by reserves. We transferred £47 million from the Reserve Fund in the 2013 Budget. The actual deficit came in at £37 million.

In the current year, 2013-14, we budgeted for a deficit of £31 million and a transfer from the 105 Reserve Fund of £31 million. Treasury currently project that we will come in below these figures by around £2 million.

For next year, 2014-15, we originally budgeted a deficit of £6 million, which was revised upwards to £11 million last year. The 2014-15 Budget is currently being prepared and we expect the deficit for next year to lie somewhere between those figures. 110

In 2015-16 we are projecting a balanced budget in line with the original plan. So, in summary, Madam President, originally we projected deficits and withdrawals from the

Reserve Fund of £92 million in total. We are likely to withdraw between £84 million and £89 million in actuality.


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In respect of the second part of the Question, the budgets for the three years to 2015-16 115 were laid in the 2013 Budget and will be updated in the 2014 Budget. Whilst the total spending is unlikely to change materially, the priorities within that spend may vary.

Council is currently reassessing the priorities of Government. As a result, implications in any one area over the next two or three years are subject to review and will be updated in time for the 2014 Budget. I am happy to share with Members the framework by which Council is 120 considering its future priorities, but would reassure Members that it continues to reflect the three overarching objectives of Government, namely to balance the budget, grow the economy and protect the vulnerable.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Henderson. 125 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Ard-shirveishagh for his positive Answer. Can he just further clarify for the Court

and the public? Broadly speaking then, the three-year plan is progressing reasonably well and we will reach where we were aiming at, and in fact all the hard work and pain that we have been 130 going through have been worth the effort, and with a little more effort and will we will get to where we need to be.

The President: Chief Minister. 135 The Chief Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his question, Madam President, which is

very helpful to give Members an update on where we are. Obviously, a great deal of hard work, and indeed in some areas pain, has been carried out to

deliver this, but at the moment, on the projections which Treasury have given to me, we seem to be on course for balancing within the framework that we have identified, but of course there 140 is always the danger we can get knocked off course by unexpected events in the next couple of years.

I will thank all Members of Government, because everybody has had a part to play in this, for the effort they put in within their Departments to actually deliver these very difficult budgets.

145 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Chief Minister, given the budgetary predictions that the capital account will

contain a balance of £1 million on 1st April 2016, and given the need to maintain capital 150 expenditure, how does he propose that Government will find the minimal £60 million shortfall that is going to be needed to replenish the capital account and also kick some money back into the reserves? How can he state, given the projections that we have all received, that the Government accounts will actually be balanced?

155 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: The question is the revenue balances of Government and I stand by the

figures which have been given to me by Treasury. I fully take on board the comments the Hon. Member has made in relation to the capital 160

programme. It is getting depleted fast, and of course the capital programme is very important, not just to continue the necessary refurbishment of our infrastructure but also to stimulate activity within the economy as well.

I have asked Treasury, and Treasury are currently working on proposals for how that money can be restored in due course; and the Treasury Minister, I am sure, will be making a statement 165 in the forthcoming Budget.


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The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. Could I just confirm that then, that the Chief Minister is acknowledging that there is 170

potentially a black hole in the rebalancing strategy with this failure to address the capital account?

Can I also ask him whether he has any concerns that the continued top-slicing of departmental budgets across the board is damaging the ability to deliver services, and is there now not a strong case for Government to take much more care around prioritising its policies 175 much more effectively and therefore moving more quickly to a position where we can identify those services which should be outsourced and privatised?

The President: Chief Minister. 180 The Chief Minister: Madam President, I have mentioned on a number of occasions, as has

the Treasury Minister himself, that the capital programme will run out in the not-too-distant future. There is no black hole there in the sense that the Hon. Member is trying to imply. We know there are problems with that and the Treasury will be taking appropriate steps to make sure we will have a continuation of funds for that particular activity. 185

In terms of the continuing top-slicing, the Hon. Member is very accurate on that and it is a comment which has been made both by myself and by the Treasury Minister, and Council is looking at a different form of rebalancing departmental budgets, which would not necessarily just continue on the top-slicing process.

190 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Ard-shirveishagh firstly explain to this Hon. Court has he

exercised as far as long-term liabilities come into the mechanism as far as the problems we have got as far as deficit spending is concerned? 195

The second point is would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that it is maybe about time that some Hon. Members in this Court give priorities of where they want to see the cuts in order to help the Council of Ministers?

The third issue is would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that the problem that we are seeing at the present time from his Government is it looks like it is all hitting the ordinary workforce? It 200 seems to be all hitting not the people who are at the top of the governmental system, but it happens to be an onslaught of trying to cut the working conditions of the ordinary people at the bottom. Can he assure that he will make sure that he gets a policy of proportionality as far as the hard decisions that are going to have to be made, so that the senior Civil Service and the top management have to take some sort of cut, instead of just the working people? 205

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: We have heard these arguments before, Madam President. Treasury and

the Council of Ministers obviously are very aware of what long-term liabilities are likely to affect 210 future policy and we are developing policies and strategies around that.

It would be very helpful, as the Hon. Member has quite rightly said, if Members themselves could identify what their individual priorities are, because many of the changes which have taken place so far, whilst in the round are applauded by the majority in Tynwald and indeed outside, when the specifics are brought to the floor of Tynwald there has been a vociferous 215 lobby against them. We cannot have it both ways; we need to have some guidance, I think, from Members as to the boundaries of acceptability in terms of service changes.


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As far as the ordinary workforce is concerned, Madam President, I do not know how many times I have got to answer this question. Protecting the vulnerable is absolutely at the core of what we are trying to do, but you need to understand that over 50% of Government budget 220 relates to staffing costs across Government and inevitably the terms and conditions relating to staffing costs, if we are not going to pursue wholesale compulsory redundancies, have to be reviewed to enables us to bring about that balance.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. 225 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Chief Minister, your Treasury Minister, the Hon. Member for Ayre, calculated during the

Budget debate this last year that the real deficit in 2013-14 across revenue, capital and reserves was expected to be £91 million. Is the outturn total real deficit likely to be in line with this 230 estimate, and how is this real deficit likely to change during the remainder of the life of this Tynwald? In particular, do you actually have a target for replenishing cash in the Capital Fund and for reserves?

The President: Chief Minister. 235 The Chief Minister: Madam President, I have just answered both of those. The budget deficit

is likely to turn out slightly less than we originally anticipated. I have answered that in the response to the Hon. Member for North Douglas, and I have just answered the question in relation to the Capital Fund – that Treasury are currently working on proposals and they will be 240 announced at the forthcoming Budget.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. 245 While the Chief Minister answered the majority of Question 2, there is a little bit that he did

not answer, and could I ask him therefore what he thinks needs to be achieved to make savings and what cutbacks does he envisage over the next 12 months, the next two years, the next three years?

Further, he is on public record as saying that there is going to be a lot more pain to come. Can 250 he illustrate what he means by that?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I cannot be specific at the moment as to which changes might come in. 255

Departments are working on those with Treasury as we speak. The pain I referred to, Madam President – and I have said this many times; it is not just

something I have referred to – is that whilst Government has done a very good job, I think, over the first two years in being on target to rebalance the budget, the steps which have been taken for the first two years are the relatively easy ones in terms of identifying the fat which existed in 260 many of the Departments, natural wastage in employment numbers and other relatively easy targets. The point I have been making is that in the time ahead, in the next two or three years, it is going to get increasingly difficult to actually achieve those easy wins because they will have already been squeezed out of the system and therefore there will be hard decisions to be made as to whether we continue certain services or not into the future. 265

I do not want to speculate at this time, Madam President, as to what those services might be, but they are all currently being reviewed, in part at least, in relation to the Scope of Government review and within the Department in other ways.


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The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall. 270 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. In terms of the rebalancing of the budget and the budget process, I would be interested to

know whether the Chief Minister’ s Government undertakes an equality impact assessment as far as that process is concerned, such as they do in Northern Ireland and also in Scotland. 275

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: If the Hon. Member could explain to me what he means by equality, it

would be quite helpful. 280

3. Progress on rebalancing programme – Question withdrawn

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Chief Minister:

Whether he is satisfied that the Government is on course to rebalance the budget by 2016?

4. VAT agreement negotiations – Advance meetings


What relevant meetings and engagements he will be undertaking prior to the VAT agreement negotiations next year?

The President: Question 4. The Hon. Member for Michael. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. 285 The President: Chief Minister to reply. The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, there is no requirement within the agreed

timetable for any specific further Tax Base Measurement Method (TBMM) related political meetings to be held. However, if at any stage agreement cannot be reached at officer level, then 290 political intervention may become necessary. Of course, it is always possible that unplanned meetings relevant to the Tax Base Measurement Method may emerge on the back of other meetings with HM Government.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. 295 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I find that a rather surprising and very bland Answer, given the fact that these forthcoming

publicised VAT negotiations next year are absolutely vital for the Island and for continuing to deliver the public services that we have come to expect. I also think that it – 300


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The President: Could you come to a question, sir? Mr Cannan: I would also like the Chief Minister to agree with me… whether he does not…

and thinks it is important that there is a proper series of awareness and negotiations at that 305 senior level, and can I ask him who will be leading these negotiations next year and does he have any plans to strengthen the negotiation team?

The President: Chief Minister. 310 The Chief Minister: I think the Treasury Minister, on a number of occasions, Madam

President, has explained the process very clearly to this Hon. Court. The consumer review, which is an absolutely essential first step towards developing a conclusion to this, is already underway. That is likely to be completed in January or February. The outcome then of all the various figures will be analysed and further discussions will take place after that. If it is necessary at that point 315 for intervention, then that will certainly take place, but to date it has been an officer-based research exercise to actually clearly identify what the level of expenditure in different areas might be, so we have some clear facts and figures to base further negotiations on, and it will be Treasury that will be leading that.

320 The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Chief Minister, as part of the preparations, does the Government consider whether the

Island’s own Customs and Excise administration is capable – sufficiently capable, that is – in case 325 the abrogation option in the agreement to share indirect taxes with the UK is exercised with two years’ notice by the UK, or even by the Isle of Man – in our case, if it was certain that an alternative indirect tax system would be better for the Isle of Man, to quote the public document about the arrangements?

330 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Madam President, we do not believe that abrogation is the solution to

this problem at all at the moment, and indeed would cause a lot more problems than it would resolve. So, while accepting the right of the Hon. Member to suggest that might be something 335 we should look at, I do not believe it should be on the agenda at this stage because it will send the wrong message outside at this delicate time. I do believe that if in the long term it was decided by this Hon. Court that abrogation was to be the way forward, appropriate measures would be put in place.

340 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Chief Minister confirm that there is actually any room for further negotiations

next year, or is it just based on figures and a formula that has already been agreed? Are there 345 any more negotiations to be had; or is it really just a done deal, but based on the figures that are being worked on?

The President: Chief Minister. 350 The Chief Minister: The expectation is that if these figures are agreed on both sides, then

there should be no need for further negotiations because it will be a factual-based outcome. If


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there is a disagreement on those figures that are produced, then there is likely to be further discussion.

355 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Sorry, no. The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. 360 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Chief Minister just clarify: when he says ‘if the figures are agreed on’ is he meaning

that there may be a dispute as to the actual figures, how they are arrived at; or does he mean something else? Is there any room for negotiation if the figures have been arrived at in 365 accordance with the formula that has already been agreed?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: If the figures are agreed between the two parties based on that formula, 370

then there should be no further need for negotiations, but it will be a little while before we know what that situation is.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. 375 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that the idea of completely

dismissing abrogation is really putting yourself in a position where you have no real power as far as negotiation with the UK authorities?

The President: Chief Minister. 380 The Chief Minister: Abrogation is hardly giving us a strong point of negotiation with the UK

authorities; quite the opposite. It is important, Madam President, we do not set this hare running at this particular time. (A Member: Hear, hear.) There is absolutely no intent on the part of the Council of Minister, or Government or Treasury, to pursue abrogation at this time; and to 385 send that message, even a hint of that message out is not going to be helpful, either in the negotiations or in creating confidence in the business community.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall. 390 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. Just leading on from the abrogation, does the Chief Minister not feel that, whatever the

notice period is of part of that agreement, the Isle of Man should be able to be ready to stand on its own feet, if I can put it that way, in case notice is given by the United Kingdom? So, if the notice period is two years, then we should be ready in two years, obviously; if it is a five-year 395 notice period, we should be able to be ready in five years to stand on our feet.

A Member: Hear, hear. The President: Chief Minister. 400 The Chief Minister: Certainly, Madam President, and the work which currently is being

carried out under the TBMM to more accurately identify the structures of expenditure within


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the economy and the revenues which could be generated from it is an important first step to enable us to put a project together which could in fact make contingency plans for the future. 405

I would reiterate to anyone listening that it is not Government’s intent in any way at this stage to consider abrogation as a way out of this. We have a long way to go on these negotiations. We have had no indication from the UK at all that they are unhappy with the direction of these negotiations, and the political relationship that this Island has with the Treasury minister is very different, vastly different, to the relationship that existed when we had 410 the initial problems with VAT.

So I would try to give some reassurance to Hon. Members. We are looking at all these things very closely, but please be careful in some of the messages you send out, because I do not want hares running at this particular time, which frankly are not going to go anywhere at all.

5. National Health Service – Government priorities


What the Government’s priorities are in relation to the NHS?

The President: Question 5. The Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. 415 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Chief Minister to reply. 420 The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, the Government has many competing

priorities, and I want to reassure this Hon. Court, our community and our health professionals that the continued provision of high-quality healthcare services is a key priority for this Government. 425

In setting Government priorities, the current independent review of health services cannot be forgotten. I cannot pre-empt the outcomes or recommendations at this stage. Government policy will, no doubt, have to focus on addressing any urgent issues as they arise, either separately or from within this review.

However, the Question is aimed more at the fundamental provision of a National Health 430 Service and the priorities within it. The vast array of services provided today and those required to cope with future demographic changes bear little similarity to the National Health Service as it was originally conceived… [Inaudible] on the financial pressures we are facing presents a very concerning picture.

The National Health Service reforms in the United Kingdom are also continuing with some 435 pace and we must not lose sight of our Island’s reliance on the willingness of skilled people to join our community in order to support the provision of many of these services.

At the same time, I want to put on record that internal reform, even on the grandest scale, may not be enough. We are also approaching a position where I think we may be forced to accept that we cannot provide every single service required locally and free at the point of 440 delivery. This is particularly relevant to health-related services. This is not just about reducing costs. The increased specialisms required and pace of change must be taken into account, and the Island’s population alone is unlikely to generate the required critical mass of cases in some situations to ensure optimum quality for certain specialist services. In short, trying to deliver too much and not doing it to the highest standards would be detrimental to patients. 445


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Planning more strategically for the future is our priority to ensure sustainability of service provision in the longer term. To do that, we must firstly establish an accurate picture of the demographics that are likely to make up our community. That is why I commissioned the ageing population review, and I shall shortly be publishing that work to inform most policy making and prioritisation going forward. 450

Pressures facing the delivery of healthcare are not simply confined to those generated by demographics though. They include matters such as the increased prevalence of long-term chronic conditions, with the attendant resource implications. We must also bear in mind the need to co-ordinate healthcare strategic planning with that relating to social care. Secondly, we must deal with identifying core service provision and related dependencies which must be 455 delivered locally. Then we must instigate a rolling review to ensure that all services are considered against the unique Island situation to ensure that any decisions made use appropriate evidence to determine the change of policy.

Related to this work is the review of whether – and if so, to what extent – charging may need to be introduced for some services, making sure we can protect the vulnerable by charging some 460 people who can afford to pay.

I would like to stress that a key plank in such reforms in respect of health services must be the need to impress on people that they have personal responsibility for their own health and wellbeing. We must help people to lead healthier lives and must be able to better target resources to support vulnerable people who do need care. 465

In summary, Madam President, the Government’s priority in respect of the National Health Service is to implement any recommendations of the independent review, carry on the work well underway to review service provision and to ensure that policies for a sustainable future are worked up using appropriate evidence to fully inform the decisions.

470 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. From that short speech, I can see that the Health Service is very high on the priority list, so

can I ask the Chief Minister why, in respect of what he has just said, his answer to the concerns 475 expressed by this Court and many outside the Court over the leadership of the Health Service has been to spend the summer fulfilling the duties of the Minister for Health?

The President: Chief Minister. 480 The Chief Minister: Madam President, I felt it important, as Chief Minister, for my own

knowledge, to better understand first hand the internal problems within the Health Service, removing it from the political arena, removing it from prejudices and personal positions to talk to the service providers from senior management right down to frontline nursing staff, including the consultants, clinicians and various other people within the Hospital service. 485

This has given me a much better understanding now of the deep-rooted challenges facing the Health Service on the Isle of Man. It is not as simple as it is being presented by certain individuals. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) It requires a great deal of thought and I would have hoped for a co-operative attempt by this particular Chamber to find solutions to making the Health Service work properly, rather than simply responding to political opportunism. 490

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Chief Minister confirm that when he says that they will be acting on the 495

recommendations of the independent review panel that is coming to the Island, he will indeed


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make sure that they are acted on, because there are still some of the 2006 recommendations that were made by the Healthcare Commission that are still outstanding.

The President: Chief Minister. 500 The Chief Minister: I think some of the 2006 recommendations are now out of date, but I can

give an absolute assurance in regard to the West Midlands review, which is now taking place, that once that review has been received it will be made public. It will be available to Members. I have publicly committed, I have already said, to make sure that these recommendations are 505 implemented with some speed.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. 510 Would the Chief Minister agree with me that, despite having the second biggest budget

spend, of approximately £178 million gross or £137 million net, the Department of Health has no measures in place to have a clear understanding of whether, or the extent to which, the service is performing to an acceptable level in terms of core activity and/or value for money; and this should be his Government’s priority – putting in place measures that can identify what the 515 service is providing and the value for money?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Yes, I would accept that, Madam President. One of the reasons for this, 520

though, has been the inadequate IT system in place, in the Hospital in particular, which has prevented senior management, and indeed clinicians, having accurate statistics to respond to the points that the Hon. Member has made.

I have now, in the last few days, agreed with ISD that WiFi will be rolled out in the Hospital from 22nd October and that the IT structures in the Hospital will be reviewed and renewed 525 before the end of the year, so hopefully that deficiency in the service at the Hospital has already been addressed.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. 530 Mr Cannan: Thank you very much. Could I ask the Chief Minister then, following his explanation, just to briefly explain what he

has learned from his meetings over summer, how that is impacting on the priorities, and will he be continuing to lead the changing solutions required to restore the confidence and get the relevant clinical solutions in place to ensure the smooth continuation of the Health Service? 535

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I have a much clearer idea now, Madam President, of the problems

facing the Health Service and I intend to work with the Minister for Health to ensure that these 540 changes are brought in as quickly as possible.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. 545 Thank you for your presentation, Chief Minister. It was similar to the Health Strategy in 2011,

and one action point for the years 2011-13 in that Health Strategy was the development and


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implementation of integrated care pathways for five priority conditions. What priority conditions were chosen, and do those integrated care pathways exist?

550 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I do not have that information, Madam President, and I would suggest

the Hon. Member asks the Minister for Health. 555 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree – just like Question 2, the

Government rebalancing exercise – that the fact is that the situation is with the DHSS there is no proportionality? The fact is that you are not addressing the bad management at the top. The fact 560 is that when you say you are having discussions with different parties… Allowing for the fact that I discussed this with some of the operatives only last week, they see the situation where you are being brought around, led by the nose and not being told the reality of what actually is going on in your health services.

565 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: One day, Madam President, the Hon. Member might get a new record:

we hear this nonsense on every issue that comes along. Madam President, I and my Chief Secretary have spent many days in Noble’s Hospital, talking 570

to senior management, to the consultants, to clinicians, to staff at the front line and various other people. Those meetings have been separate from any political or other managerial influence. I have spoken to the unions at some length without any senior management there. They have been able to be absolutely open and frank with me. That is what I have –

575 Mr Karran: They have been selected. The Chief Minister: They have not been selected, Madam President; only in the sense that

the union reps have been voted in by their own workforce – that is the selection. (Interjection by Mr Karran) 580

It is incredible how difficult it is for the Member for Onchan to actually recognise genuine attempts to try and resolve serious structural problems within the Health Service without trying to denigrate every move and everyone involved in it.

The staff have responded very positively. The Minister has not been at these meetings. We have had a free hand to talk to unions; we have had a free hand to talk to the consultants. They 585 have been very open, very honest, and in many cases very blunt. I now have a much better idea of where we need to focus our attentions in the future.

It is disappointing that every genuine attempt to try and resolve problems in this Government is met with the usual rubbishing and denigration by the Hon. Member, who himself has done nothing to actually help the situation. 590

The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Can the Ard-shirveishagh confirm that some of this nonsense this morning that is being put 595

out – some of it – is scaremongering, to put it mildly, (A Member: Hear, hear.) especially in regard to the allegation made that, at Noble’s, none of the clinical care can be measured to a standard? That is clearly not true. Could he confirm that it is measured normally and that standards are operated in the clinical area and that, in fact, all this is serving to do is to


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demoralise the staff in the Hospital even further and make the current recruitment crisis even 600 worse?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I would agree with the Hon. Member entirely. One of the issues certainly 605

that has come across in my conversations at the Hospital is the damaging effects some of these allegations have had both on morale and also in heightening concerns now by patients coming in for treatment (Interjection) for various reasons.

There are problems at the Hospital – everybody accepts that; we are not trying to deny it – but if we are going to resolve this issue we need to put this political points-scoring to one side 610 and actually drill down and identify what the real problems are and then make tangible steps to try and improve things. I do believe, although there are long-standing problems at the Hospital, they are not insurmountable, but we need time to put them in place.

I think the step which has been taken so far with the West Midlands review is a major step forward. That will give us a lot more information to go on. I have also initiated a review of the 615 senior management structure in the Hospital. That has already started and the results of that review should be back with us by the end of November. That will give at least a chance to review the areas of concern again that Members have expressed about the suitability of senior management. All these issues are being addressed, Madam President.

620 The President: Question 6, the Hon. Member for Douglas West. Mr Singer: I indicated. I have indicated for a while. The President: I know you have indicated, sir. It is for me to decide when we move on to 625

another Question, and this is straying into a debate.

6. Estate Agents and Landlords Bill – Decision not to pursue

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:

When the Council of Ministers decided not to pursue the drafting of the proposed Estate Agents and Landlords Bill; and why this decision was taken?

The President: Question 6. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 630 The President: Chief Minister to reply. The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, the Council of Ministers considered this

matter and gave permission for drafting on 9th February 2012. The Bill aimed to improve 635 regulation of estate agents and to ensure landlords provide accommodation which is to a minimum standard. Although it was conceived as a single Bill to address two distinct issues, by the end of that month it became clear in discussions between the Office of Fair Trading and the Department of Social Care that the timescale for the two distinct issues may not be compatible and it was decided to progress matters separately. 640


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I can reassure the Hon. Member that both matters will be progressed and have not been removed from the programme. The Estate Agents Bill and the Landlord and Tenants (Private Housing) Bill are both entries in the legislative programme for the current parliamentary year.

The Council of Ministers is routinely updated on the Government’s legislative programme by the Chief Secretary. Only substantive changes of content would require a specific consideration 645 by Council and a development such as a name change or similar alternative approach to achieve the same outcome would not necessarily require political-level intervention in the day-to-day management of the programme.

Council of Ministers is due to consider prioritisation of the legislative programme in the next few weeks and I intend to make that information and any routine updates publicly available on 650 the Council of Ministers website to ensure such confusion cannot arise in future.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. 655 Thank you for your comprehensive Answer, Chief Minister. Do you not agree, Chief Minister, that by separating the legislation into a Landlords and

Tenants Bill and an Estate Agents Bill we are in danger of further increasing the amount of law, offices and officers involved, when we should be perhaps modernising existing legislation and regulation, reducing bureaucracy and enhancing standards through better enforcement and co-660 ordination?

Can we not leave the OFT, local authorities, environmental health and fire officers responsible for registration and landlords across the property sector for estate agents and landlords – even property management companies, because I have had many issues raised with me about them – leaving DSC to make sure it is responsible for the standards of the property 665 which are rented using its Social Security funds which it manages on behalf of the taxpayer?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I am assured, Madam President, that these two Bills are essential to try 670

and tackle the issues in hand, but I would agree with the Hon. Member that we need to look very carefully at the amount of legislation that we pass, and indeed I think in my original manifesto as Chief Minister I said quite clearly I would like to see some form of one-in one-out arrangement develop when new legislation is brought forward, to try and streamline the legislation that we have on the stocks, and the regulation, to make it simpler and to ensure 675 redundant legislation is shifted away, off the records, as quickly as possible. That does not seem to be happening at the moment, but it is still something I have an ambition to achieve.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Quirk. 680 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. I was quite happy that the Bills have both been separated. I have no difficulty regarding the

Estate Agents Bill, but on the Landlords Bill could I seek some clarification from the Chief Minister? Where is that in his list of priorities, compared to the Estate Agents Bill? For example, would he be giving the Estate Agents Bill number 1 and the Landlords Bill number 13? 685

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I did say in my Answer, Madam President, that the majority had been

reviewed and that that will be announced shortly. 690


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7. Public sector pension schemes – Affordability

The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Chief Minister:

Whether the Chief Minister still believes that the public sector pension schemes remain affordable? The President: Question 7. The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 695 The President: Chief Minister to reply. The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, I want to reassure this Hon. Court that I do

not consider this work in any way completed. It is firmly on my radar and work is continuing. 700 The legacy liabilities of schemes started many generations ago present us with a huge

challenge going forward. However, we are now in a much stronger position in respect of being able to manage this. It may be worth reminding Hon. Members that prior to the reforms brought about in respect of the new public sector pensions legislation and the introduction of the Government Unified Scheme, we had very little local control. The analogous schemes were 705 largely determined by the United Kingdom government without any consultation and applied automatically in the Island. There was an absence of best practice in pension governance and some groups paid very little or nothing but could look forward to an extremely generous pension.

The majority of public servants are now paying more for a less generous basic scheme and 710 were given an option to pay more over and above the basic contribution to protect some aspects of their existing position. Working up a new scheme was challenging. Achieving the agreement of negotiating bodies was very important and we have achieved a level of reform with a spirit of co-operation that most governments with similar schemes are envious of. Hon. Members will have seen the recent industrial action in the UK by firefighters and teachers over 715 proposed pension reforms. This has not happened in the Isle of Man.

The reform does not necessarily stop here though. Predictions made about the future must be monitored to see how things pan out. The full picture will begin to emerge as we pass through the early transition to higher contribution levels. We must keep a very careful eye on progress against predictions and deal with any unexpected issues. 720

Some degree of future protection for the public purse is afforded through the new cost-sharing provisions which are currently being worked up. The Public Sector Pension Authority has responsibility for monitoring all schemes and advises the Council of Ministers on policy for such matters. There is some concern emerging that the current background environment is encouraging earlier retirements among pension members than had originally been anticipated 725 and consequently cashflow is being affected, and I have asked for this matter to be reviewed.

It is also worth mentioning that the Police and teachers’ schemes in the Island are also facing considerable reform and changes to all schemes must be taken into account to ensure that this situation is monitored fully.

Whilst I acknowledge the progress made on this matter, I recognise that we have not 730 addressed the still growing pressure on the basic perception of unfairness of the generosity of public sector pensions when compared with offerings in the private sector. We are also facing changes in respect of the single-tier State Retirement Pension in the United Kingdom, and this is being analysed to see whether this would be an appropriate system for the Isle of Man. Public sector pensions, therefore, should be reviewed as part of wider retirement considerations. I am 735


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committed to ensuring that we use every opportunity to try to deal with this divide in an equitable and affordable way, but not in a race to the bottom. We need to find a way to ensure that as many people as possible within our community have adequate provision for their retirement.

I also, Madam President, intend to provide a full briefing for Hon. Members during November 740 to allow a full update to be provided.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. 745 I would like to thank the Chief Minister for his reply. I do appreciate that the Government has

made certain steps towards cost savings, but will the Chief Minister look to scrap the final salary schemes and replace them with a pension based on average career earnings and set a ceiling for payments, given that we have at this moment a shortfall in funding for our public sector pensions of some £3 million a month from what we take in to what we pay out, or £37 million a 750 year, and an increased liability of some £343 million in the last financial year in the Dark Blue Book we have we been given, and therefore a black hole that must be sorted out now and not left for the next generation?

The President: Chief Minister. 755 The Chief Minister: Madam President, I have asked for the Public Sector Pensions Working

Group to be reconstituted to look at all these issues and review not just the current position but the direction of travel which may be identified from that. Whilst it would be premature to make any concessions at this stage, we will obviously consider any recommendations that come out of 760 that work.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall. Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. 765 Would the Chief Minister not agree with me that the final salary pension schemes were never

designed to be paying out for the length of time they are having to pay out now? They were designed a long time ago when people retired at 60 or 65 and life expectancy may have been around 70; whereas now, life expectancy is creeping up to 90 and beyond and the final salary scheme is just not capable of paying out for this length of time, and until that changes the 770 problem is never ever going to go away?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I agree entirely with the Hon. Member, Madam President, and I did touch 775

on it in a previous answer. The entire pensions industry needs a review; not just public sector pensions but how we retain the retirement pension as well.

All of these issues relate back to the ageing demographic and the narrowing dependency ratio between those who are providing the funds to pay for pensions and those who are drawing pensions. This applies to the provision of pensions. It also applies to our ability to provide a 780 continuing National Health Service, which equally I believe is unsustainable in its present form for exactly the same reasons the Hon. Member states: people are living so much longer now that the strategies which were drawn up 30, 40, 50 years ago in anticipating a relatively short retirement period, have now all got to be ripped up and revised in a very different way.

785 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran.


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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree – like Question 2, about the long-term liabilities – that maybe we need to make sure that that is actually part of the accounting process as far as any deficit is concerned as far as the Island is concerned? 790

Would he also not agree that the fact is that… he is right that we should not be looking for a race to the bottom, but don’t you think we need to be seriously taking a decision that all new people going into a public sector pension will go onto a money-purchase system in order to do so, like some of us said seven or eight years ago in this Hon. Court?

Finally, would he not agree also with the question from the Hon. Member for Middle that the 795 liabilities are actually a lot worse than £3 million a month as far as the present structure of deficit on the public sector pension, and it has to be addressed now – not just before an election when you simply will not get anything through?

The President: Chief Minister. 800 The Chief Minister: It is disappointing the Hon. Member did not listen to my Answer, Madam

President. I have set up the Public Sector Pensions Working Group to review all these possible outcomes

and to get an update on how the current reforms are working. This is a hugely sensitive and 805 hugely challenging issue which Government has got to deal with. It cannot be dealt with in a knee-jerk reaction on the floor of this Chamber. It needs to be based on hard facts and strategies which are thought through, properly planned and sustainable into the future. This is a major piece of work which needs doing. We are talking about the livelihoods of many thousands of people, and therefore it cannot just be dismissed in a political sound bite. We need firm facts 810 and figures to base any future strategy on, and that is exactly what we are trying to do.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. 815 Even though its value is less than one tenth of the liability, would you be more confident,

Chief Minister, that public sector pension schemes remain affordable if the Public Service Employees’ Pension Reserve was ring-fenced to provide pension benefits… that it is not currently considered an asset in the scheme, as it is not ring-fenced? If so, will you ask your working group to consider this immediately? 820

Also, would it be helpful, if it is not already published, to publish the actuarial valuation so that the public and Members of parliament could have more information about possible cost-sharing initiatives and the impact of discount rates and that sort of thing on the huge increase in liability referred to by the Hon. Member for Middle?

825 The President: You are rather asking the Chief Minister for detail. Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: All these issues, as I have said, Madam President, will be considered by

the working group as they carry out their work. There is a huge amount of detail involved, 830 obviously, in that. I do not have all that information at my fingertips here and it needs to be considered dispassionately by people looking to find a strategic direction for a sustainable pension scheme in the future, which is not a burden for the taxpayer but also provides fairness for our workforce.

835 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President.


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Can the Chief Minister please explain what he means by ‘we are in a strong position regarding the public sector pensions’? We all know the deficit is growing, we all know it is out of 840 control, it is unsustainable, it is basically largely dependent on the fluctuation of interest rates. Just to clarify, can you please explain what you mean by ‘we are in a strong position’?

The President: Chief Minister. 845 The Chief Minister: I was not aware I said ‘strong position’. What I have said is we need to

review the position to see how the structures we have put in place… We have taken the best possible professional advice on setting up these schemes in the first place. There have been certain consequences, though, which have had an effect on it, which is, as I said in my Answer, early retirement, which is at a higher level than we expected, and we need now to take all these 850 into consideration. We also need to bear in mind, of course, that in some cases our need to downsize Government and encourage early retirement and encourage voluntary redundancy has had some impact on the settlements within the scheme.

We need to bear all these things in mind and put together a scheme which reflects accurately what the true position is and not what the perception is. 855

The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you. Does the Chief Minister acknowledge that the first full audit of Public Sector Pensions 860

Authority is currently taking place and that this Hon. Court and the public will be able to see a full annual report and accounts which should be published early next year? It will give Hon. Members absolutely full detail to be able to explore the ins and outs of this clearly very difficult subject.

865 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I wholeheartedly agree with the Hon. Member for Michael; he is

absolutely right. There will then, though, be an opportunity for the full facts and figures to be laid out in public, particularly for this Hon. Court to have a more informed debate on, and at that 870 point we may be in a position to identify any shortcomings or any changes which we might need to make in the system.

The President: Final supplementary, Mr Karran. 875 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that the fact is that we all

know that the problem has not just arisen? The fact is that some of us have raised it – not a sound bite, but go back and look at your Hansard on these issues.

The President: Could we have the question, sir? 880 Mr Karran: There is a question there, Eaghtyrane. Would the Ard-shirveishagh not try and

rewrite history as far as this issue is concerned? Some of us stood alone in this Hon. Court on this very subject about the issue that we should be looking at new recruits having to go into a money-purchase scheme; otherwise you will have no choice and there will be a race to the 885 bottom on this most important issue.

Secondly, Eaghtyrane, wouldn’t you agree that the fact is that in the accountancy process, as far as the budgetary control, like in Question 2, long-term liabilities should be part of that factor as far as budgeting is concerned – not a sound bite, but common sense, which is so lacking in this Hon. Court? 890


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The President: Chief Minister, work out the question. (Interjection by Mr Karran) The Chief Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his interesting contribution, Madam

President. I am Chief Minister, though, and it is my responsibility, through the Council of Minister, to look to the future, not to the past. 895

We have a scheme which has been implemented after five years of negotiation with the staff. It has been painstakingly thought through; it has been approved by this Hon. Chamber. It is in the early stages of implementation and it is absolutely right that we take time in the near future, as the Member for Michael has said, to review the workings of the scheme. The outcomes of that review will be made available to Members, and at that point we will be able to step back 900 and see if we need to alter the scheme in any way to take account of developing circumstances. On a more factual base we then can make decisions – informed decisions – as to what the best way forward might be.

The President: Question 8. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. 905 Mr Karran: Another supplementary, Eaghtyrane? The President: I indicated, sir, that that would be the last supplementary. You have asked it.

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

8. Banking sector – Status and strength

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:

If he will make a statement on the current status of the Island’s banking sector and its strength?

The President: We are moving on to Question 8. (Interjection by Mr Karran) 910 The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 915 The President: Minister for Economic Development to reply. The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. The Isle of Man banking sector continues to be extremely important to our economy in terms

of the employment it provides, tax revenues and the services it offers to individuals and 920 businesses based both locally and around the world.

As in the case of many developed nations, the banking sector in our Island has faced a number of economic and environmental challenges over recent years. The sector employs just over 2,500 people directly and has 30 licensed banks operating from the Island. Total bank deposits stand at £44.6 billion. This, however, represents a decline of 4.7% on a year ago, which 925 is comparable with the experience in the Channel Islands. Since the financial crisis in 2008, there have been a number of factors that have impacted on banking groups which have caused them


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to review their global operations and structures. The banks operating in the Isle of Man have sought to minimise the impact of these factors locally in a responsible manner.

The main reason for contraction in employment is due to a number of interrelated factors: 930 the withdrawal of some Irish institutions; the trend towards increased compliance and the associated costs of servicing customers globally, which has led to certain larger institutions consolidating their target markets to those which are more financially attractive; and there is a continuing trend for UK and European banks to reduce costs, which has inevitably had some impact upon offshore operations. 935

Madam President, I can advise the Court that the Chief Minister, Treasury Minister and myself, along with officers, have worked closely with the industry to counter these effects and to support this important sector. For example, we have approached the head offices of all the large banks to discuss developments in the sector and promote the advantages that the Island has to offer. This practice has been very successful and the response from their chief executives has 940 been both warm and constructive. In fact, the exercise has led to a number of jobs coming to the Isle of Man, which has helped to offset the wider contraction in the sector.

In the coming year, it is vital we ensure that our relationship with the United Kingdom is equitable and in the interests of both jurisdictions. The implementation of the findings of the United Kingdom’s Independent Commission on Banking (ICB) will be crucial. This work is 945 designed to reduce risks to the UK economy and taxpayers by separating retail and investment banking and ensuring retail deposits are adequately protected within a ring fence.

Under current proposals, I am pleased to say that the Isle of Man will have access to ring-fenced institutions. To ensure that the Isle of Man’s public purse is protected, we are seeking assurances as to the treatment of assets provided to the UK and how our depositors will be 950 ultimately protected. We are working very closely with the banks, the UK and the Channel Islands on this vital matter; however, it will be some months before these discussions are completed and we can publicly state their outcomes. From a regulatory perspective, we understand the Financial Supervision Commission continues to work closely with UK and other regulators and relevant authorities, particularly on the issues of capital, liquidity and bank 955 resolution.

Finally, Madam President, looking further into the future, there is a need to develop our banking model, and my Department is working with colleagues from Treasury and the FSC and the private sector in order to define a competitive and vibrant longer-term business model. It is expected that these proposals will be brought forward over the coming year, together with a 960 review of the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme and the current regulatory regime.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 965 I thank the Shirveishagh for his positive Answer on that. However, can he give us a little more

information on his plans moving forward with regard to not just strengthening and consolidating business at the minute, but how we are going to grow it in the future? It is something I am particularly interested in. Will he give an undertaking to inform Members of the Court as and when we have new initiatives brought forward, or news that he has already spoken of, 970 Eaghtyrane?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 975 I think the main benefit to the banking institutions and the future opportunities for

employment and revenue for the Isle of Man Government is centralised around the work that in particular the Chief Minister and Treasury Minister have been doing with regard to our international reputation. As we move forward, banks will inevitably change. We have ensured,


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by the efforts over the last 12 months, that the Isle of Man is seen by many as being in the 980 thought leadership of how we move forward as an offshore financial centre. I think it is the words that we are getting from the Treasury and from the headquarters of the banks which would indicate that we do have a proposition to move forward.

We have already, over the years, diversified our interests across the globe in a way which actually again benefits all sectors, but including the banking, because we already have an expat 985 market and areas of expertise that will be needed in the future, regardless of the economic situation in the United Kingdom or Europe. We are realistic there will be continual contraction within the banking sector. We are anticipating there will be some changes, and that may be a reduction in certain skills and jobs that we have on the Island which may be able to be provided elsewhere, but our main strength will be the excellence and the quality of our offering and the 990 standards to which we maintain both regulatory, governmental, but also in the business sectors themselves.

I would be delighted to, and will, bring back to the Court any new initiatives as and when they are ready, Madam President.

995 The President: Supplementary, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. I appreciate Mr Shimmin is not the Treasury Minister, but could I ask Minister Shimmin, with

reference to the major UK banks that are on the Island and their policy for lending to first-time 1000 buyers… I am wondering whether this item has ever been drawn up at any meetings the Ministers have had with the banking community, as we still have a slight restriction, I believe in… Would he not agree with me there is a slight restriction there where the major banks are applying a policy which is now relaxed in the UK? I am just wondering whether the Minister could draw that to their attention. 1005

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, I reassure the Hon. Member that the Treasury Minister, the

Chief Minister and myself will do exactly that, as we have done on many occasions, looking 1010 towards a local solution to our local situation. When the restriction is being lifted in the United Kingdom, that is a positive sign for their economy which can only benefit the Isle of Man’s economy, but certainly we have been pushing for some time and had some success with the lenders on the Isle of Man beginning to actually be more flexible about their levels of lending.

Certainly there are, again, indications that things are moving in a better direction, but we 1015 should not expect to see this as a massive shift change; it is a gradual improvement in the situation across the lending and the mortgage situation.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 1020 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh inform this Court in what sort of timescale is

he hoping to have a review of the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme, allowing for the fact that that must be a major factor as far as the banking sector, as far as concerns as far as the Island is concerned and its liability, only to maybe be second to the fact that alternative governments on adjacent isles have got such a major investment portfolio into a number of the banks that are in 1025 our jurisdiction as well? Could he give us some sort of timescale on the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme and what new initiatives are going to be taking place, so that as there are fewer banks having licences, the bigger the liability will not actually discourage even further banks from leaving this jurisdiction?

1030 The President: Minister.


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The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. Indeed, part of the significant challenge that we have is with regard to our Depositors’

Compensation Scheme and making sure that we are reflecting that which is appropriate for the Island but also in keeping with elsewhere. We do understand that we are out of step currently 1035 and our negotiations and discussions are to ensure that that is not an inhibitor on development and growth of business on the Isle of Man.

We collectively have to ensure that our proposition and offering is one which is both competitive but also protected. Part of that inevitably will be the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme to ensure that we do not find ourselves at a disadvantage. When I talked about the 1040 equitability between ourselves and the United Kingdom, that is important for the depositors to understand what we offer.

The timescale: all of this is moving quickly. That will be within this year. We will be coming back once the further elements of the ICB have been explored further, so the timescale is relatively quick. 1045

I would leave the Court with the understanding that our banking proposition is holding up well, has challenges, but is rising to those challenges with an optimistic future. That is not being complacent, but nor should it be seen as being anything which we cannot cope with and positively come out the other end of, Madam President.

COMMUNITY, CULTURE AND LEISURE

9. External consultants – Reasons for employing

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure:

Why his Department is employing outside consultants whilst employing certain staff who hold similar qualifications and receive comparable remuneration to the consultants but who are undertaking a role below their job description?

The President: Question 9. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton. 1050 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure to reply. 1055 The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Madam

President. Without more detail, my officers have made some assumptions regarding this Question. I

assume the Question refers to the track survey and design specialist engaged for part of this 1060 summer to prepare the track renewal scheme, designs and schedules required for the capital works programme over the next two years.

Historically, all survey and design work for railway track renewals have been carried out by off-Island specialist consultants. There has been some lack of continuity of work to justify the employment of a person with these high-value skills. None of the current Department 1065 employees have the relevant skills or experience to carry out the wide range of activities required, and neither is it a requirement of any current member of staff’s job description.


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The Department has employed a trainee technician who has completed his second year of development, which has included some general college and specialist technical education, but is some years away from being competent to undertake track design work. This individual has 1070 been working with the survey and design specialist referred to, to increase his technical knowledge and experience necessary to achieve the relevant competency.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Houghton. 1075 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. In his Answer, the Minister alluded to the fact that he had not enough detail. The Minister

was asked in the early part of the summer about a particular issue of the qualification of an employee he clearly had. He made enquiries and he confirmed what I had said, and in furtherance to that, may I ask if he actually did compare the value of the payments that were 1080 made to this consultant against the value of the salaried person he has in position; and what was the outcome of that? Did he actually make those comparisons, as he was asked, Madam President?

The President: Minister. 1085 The Minister: Madam President, I think I made it quite clear we do not have a design

specialist able to carry out this work. There is a level of competency there. I actually went down and spoke to the manager I think the Member is referring to, and he has confirmed that he has not got that technical competency to carry out this requirement. 1090

I am also led to believe that, on this type of job, the qualified individual, if we were to employ a full-time equivalent, would be on in excess of £100,000 a year.

The President: A further supplementary. 1095 Mr Houghton: Final supplementary, Madam President. I thank the Minister for what he has said. Can he just confirm that he actually believed what

he was told, for the Court; and secondly, did he go and confirm the costs and the qualifications of those two people I mentioned in my initial Question to him?

1100 The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, I personally spoke to the individual twice to confirm that his

qualification... and he has confirmed to me personally that he would not be able to carry out this work. 1105

I think it is better value for the Isle of Man Government to have somebody on a short-term contract, to get this experience to train our staff up, rather than have to spend in excess of £100,000 for somebody who would not be utilised for the amount of times that we require them.


10. Airlines – Meetings held since July

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:

What meetings he has had with airlines since July 2013?


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The President: Question 10. The Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. 1110 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Minister for Economic Development to reply. 1115 The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. Firstly, the Hon. Member may be aware that there are no airline management staff from

Flybe, easyJet or BA CityFlyer based here on the Island; only their airline crews who live here or stay overnight here. Therefore, whilst we do get an annual visit by various airline management 1120 staff, most dialogue is by phone or e-mail.

Secondly, ordinarily, the relevant key point of contact for airlines and aircraft operators for the Island would be the Director of Ports in the Department of Infrastructure. That said, however, I have been working, together with the Minister for Infrastructure, for some time now to engage the airlines about their services. Supported by officers from both Departments, 1125 Government has met with the airlines on a number of occasions since July.

In relation to flights from London, a month ago, the Minister for Infrastructure and I met with BA CityFlyer to discuss returning to an early-morning and an evening service from the end of March next year. Our discussions have gone very well and I hope that there will be some news regarding London City very shortly. 1130

Behind the scenes, there have also been dozens of conversations and e-mails with both easyJet and BA CityFlyer since the beginning of July, regarding flights to and from London for the summer of 2014 onwards.

This Court and the public should be reassured that this issue remains the highest priority in my Department and is discussed on a daily basis. I would urge all interested parties to maintain a 1135 little more patience as frequent negative comments can undermine the confidence in our business community and indeed do nothing to assist a positive outcome of what are quite delicate negotiations.

Finally, as regards efforts to restore a Scottish route, I have met with a potential operator, while in addition my officers have attended a number of other meetings since July with a view to 1140 the Department offering marketing support for a twice-daily service to Scotland. Our discussions are ongoing and I would hope to provide news this side of Christmas.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Cannan. 1145 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Minister for a reassuring Answer there. Can I ask whether he recognises,

obviously, why the Question was asked, and once again does he recognise and can he confirm the emphasis, or the importance, of having this early-morning route to the City of London, particularly for the business community? Does he agree that it would be ideal if both routes, 1150 London City and London Gatwick, were serviced by such a time slot?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 1155 Certainly, we all, I believe, in this Court, recognise the reason for the Question and the

importance of this issue. It has been blazing throughout the finance sector and business community for many months, which has only had a negative detrimental effect on business confidence, which we all know is critical to our potential growth. So it is vital; it is important. We are doing everything we can, and we do have to reflect that the successes that we are getting 1160


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will be attempting to satisfy the business needs, but also the tourist and visitor needs in both directions.

EasyJet, although it has come in for some criticism, does provide a lower-cost solution for people to travel from the south-east to the Isle of Man, and indeed for our own people to travel down there. However, that is never going to satisfy the business community. As the questioner 1165 says and everybody realises... the importance of a day trip for business in both directions. We are working for that outcome. We understand that, in the past, the competition for the Gatwick and the London City early-morning slots actually was part of the financial reasons that it was not working as well. Therefore, if we can be successful in our negotiations to restore that, we will have provided to the business community what they have explained quite clearly they expect in 1170 a modern financial centre.

So I do recognise that the Hon. Member is putting down a Question that concerns of all of us, and none more so than my Department, but I remain optimistic.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Quirk. 1175 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Could I ask the Minister, Mr Shimmin, with reference to… He mentioned the Scottish link.

Would it be his intention for him and Minister Cretney to go forward and explore the avenues of the new Prestwick Airport? There is an opportunity there and I am sure that if both Ministers 1180 could engage with another minister in another jurisdiction, we may have some fruit.

The President: Minister to reply. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 1185 Just reassuring the Hon. Member for Onchan that yes, indeed, the Minister for Infrastructure

and myself are very aware of both the First Minister of Scotland’s interest in restoring links, but also the Prestwick operation, now owned by the Scottish government, and therefore we are looking at that.

Again, one of the difficulties is that when we dilute a route into either Glasgow or Edinburgh, 1190 one of those might be successful. To have two, at times, has compromised the viability. We have to look at those as being the main hubs, but Prestwick has now come into the equation. We would have to talk again with the operators, but also the business community would see the potential added length of their journey as being a disincentive, particularly if they were going to one of the major cities in Scotland. 1195

The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. Whilst I accept the Minister is not the Minister directly responsible, clearly there is a key role 1200

for him, given the concern of the business community. Does he agree that he has given the Court a lot of reassurance that this is high on the Department’s priority list, but can he also give us some confidence that a positive outcome is achievable, and does he have any idea when we can get some sort of message to the business community that this will be achievable, in order to keep that confidence level going that we are going to carry on having these key links at this key 1205 time?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 1210 Genuinely, in our joined-up-Government thinking, I can reassure the Court that the Minister

for Infrastructure and his Department absolutely understand unequivocally the importance to


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the Isle of Man of these business airline links. Therefore, yes, my Department is involved, working closely with Infrastructure, and in their own right they fully understand and have been negotiating for that. 1215

The reassurance is coming from the dialogue that goes continuously and on an, as I have said, almost daily basis, and we do anticipate that if people can retain their confidence and patience we hope to have an outcome within approximately three weeks. I genuinely cannot guarantee what that will be, but within three weeks we should have clarity of what is able to go forward.

People will understand that these are delicate commercial decisions taken at board level and 1220 we are not going to interfere with their due consideration of what is a small Island’s needs – vital to ourselves, but in the bigger picture.

Everybody should remember that for many years the United Kingdom have been saying that there is a lack of capacity in London. Everybody is aware of that. That has been high in the UK agenda with regard to terminals at Heathrow and elsewhere. That does mean that the charging 1225 structures in Gatwick, in London City and elsewhere have been under enormous pressure to maximise profits. Therefore, we are fighting hard for the interests of the Isle of Man, but in a competitive area where other airports and jurisdictions, or at least regions, have not done as well as we hoped out of this current level of negotiations.

Answer to the question: I believe within three weeks. 1230

11. Central Douglas Masterplan Committee – Role, membership and budget

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:

What role, membership, and budget the Central Douglas Masterplan Committee has?

The President: Question 11. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 1235 The President: The Minister for Economic Development to reply. The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Madam President, the role and

membership of the Central Douglas Masterplan Committee is set down in its terms of reference. Those terms task the Committee with oversight of the development of a masterplan for central 1240 Douglas which will encourage companies to invest in the capital to support long-term economic regeneration.

Specifically, the Committee, together with relevant officers, is to: review the evidence base, including that relating to transport and access; develop a vision for Central Douglas for consultation; and review development opportunities and consider how to maximise those 1245 opportunities in a draft masterplan for consultation. Once feedback from the consultation and engagement has been considered, the Committee will agree a plan for delivery and implementation of the opportunities and how these can be best taken forward.

The role of the Committee is to ensure that the masterplan will support economic growth in central Douglas and be robust and future-proofed so that companies will invest in the capital to 1250 support long-term economic regeneration. It will also ensure that the masterplan is grounded in economic reality and realisable opportunity.


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The Committee is made up of myself, as chair; the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Minister Cretney; the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Minister Robertshaw; and Councillor David Christian, Leader of Douglas Borough Council. 1255

The Committee itself has not the means and allocation of any finances. However, funding has been allocated for the masterplan work from the Chief Secretary’s Office and from my Department as and when it will be required.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. 1260 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Can the Minister advise whether the agenda and the non-confidential minutes of meetings

will be published? (A Member: Hear, hear.) Also, can the Minister advise how this Committee’s work will fit in with the plethora of existing committees – the Douglas Development Partnership, 1265 the Douglas Regeneration Committee, the Douglas Borough Council Regeneration and Community Advisory Committee – and also how this masterplan will mesh with the statutory Douglas Local Plan, the proposed Eastern Area Plan and the existing lower Douglas planning guidelines?

Does the Minister not agree that we are in danger of unnecessarily complicating things by 1270 introducing economic reality, economic situation, economic growth solely, rather than sticking to planning and having a good plan for the people of the community and the whole of Douglas, as well as the business? (Interjections by Mr Quirk and Mr Anderson and laughter)

The President: Minister. 1275 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. Firstly, on the minutes and the agenda, I understand politically that is something which is

always required and I will try and keep Hon. Members who are interested well informed, particularly those for the Douglas region. However, I would point out that what I have said in my 1280 Answer is that much of the Committee’s work in the short term will be commercially sensitive and should therefore remain confidential, so we are attempting to try to tell you the terms of reference and to actually be open about that.

I think the Hon. Member for West Douglas – a fine constituency (Mr Corkish: Hear, hear.) – makes an extremely good point, which is that the number of committees and parties looking at 1285 this does require an overview of somebody to take the initiative. That is the challenge of my Committee, and it is a challenge and I do not make light of it. There are so many conflicting and competing interests in the area, both within and outwith Government, that to actually have nobody overseeing that would have been negligent in itself. Therefore, our role is not an expensive operation to try and invest a large amount of money, but it is to ensure that the 1290 joined-up talking to each other goes on and is carried out. So that is my challenge: to mesh together various interests and committees. The Hon. Member talks about planning, and yes indeed, the Eastern Area Plan and other aspects of that will be represented by the Director of Planning, who sits on the Committee, along with the Chief Secretary. Therefore, we have all the component parts sitting round the table together, which is why we are attempting to try and 1295 ensure co-ordination.

I do not make light of it, I do not think it is going to be easy, but there is a need to look at one of the most important land areas on our Island to make sure that we maximise the benefit for the people. Part of that will be economic, part of that will be social, and part of that will be governmental or private. So, a big challenge, Madam President. 1300

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President.


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Would the Minister not agree that there are other vital parts of the Island that do surround 1305 the central part of Douglas? I would echo the sentiments from the Member for West Douglas, Mr Thomas, that the minutes should be available, and if you are the Chairman of this Committee it is up to you to make sure that those are disseminated to the Members first. I wonder whether, in your reply to me, if you are not trusting Members of this Hon. Court or this Chamber, maybe you could organise a briefing for Members so we will be up to date, because other 1310 organisations, would he not agree with me, have a vital part to add to this masterplan, and until you get… Would he not agree as well with me that until the Strategic Plan is reviewed and the Douglas masterplan… we are talking about maybe six years away? That is too long.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. 1315 I am sorry, Minister to reply… [Inaudible] statement. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I actually agree with everything the Hon. Members are saying. (Several Members: Yes! Hear,

Hear.) 1320 The reality is that we have had three meetings of a very important Committee but are still

attempting to understand the complexity of this. We are looking at a masterplan which is non-statutory; therefore, we will focus on getting an evidence-base, formulating implementation and programmes – all of the waffly stuff that does not mean anything, the stuff we have been doing for years, but somebody has to co-ordinate that. 1325

It is not the Area Plan for the East, which will be a statutory document, but it will not also duplicate the Area Plan for the East. We are not trying to double-handle this; we are attempting to actually have a higher level of looking at what is in the best interest, and inevitably part of that – of which we are only just beginning the first step – is public consultation with all the stakeholders, all the Members of this Court, the Douglas Development Partnership, the Chamber 1330 of Commerce, the public, and indeed greater Douglas, sometimes referred to as the… [Inaudible] area for Onchan. So we have a whole wider plethora of interests that we are attempting to bring together.

I apologise to the good people of Onchan, a very important town in our Island. (Interjections) If this was a hole I could not dig it any deeper, really, Madam President. (Laughter) 1335

The reality is that all of those parties involved and the Hon. Members of this Court who are interested will be consulted. We will be doing a workshop for those Members. Please do not see this as being criticism of what we are doing. This is meant to be inclusive, yet we have not got to that stage.

The other part about the minutes: I assure Hon. Members I will look at that with the 1340 Committee to see how much of it we can make available. This is not meant to be secret. This is meant to be inclusive, but I am very conscious that many of the interests talking to us about this have serious financial investments potentially on offer. The businesses that may be looking and considering coming to our Island will not want their names prematurely put in the public domain, so I will have to be sensible – as ever. 1345

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President, and to the Minister for his

comprehensive answers to date. 1350 Please could I just remind the Minister that we talked about the agenda being public as well

as the minutes, and on that basis can I ask a supplementary question, which is are members of the Committee attending in a personal capacity, or as local MHKs and Douglas councillors, or in their roles as Ministers of Government and Leader of Douglas Borough Council?

Extending that, would a residents’ association representative be co-opted to the Committee, 1355 if such a residents’ committee was established; and how about a representative of business


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from the Chamber of Commerce or elsewhere; the third sector, given it is so vital to so many areas of Government; and how about any other interest group that comes forward in this process of consultation introduced to us only, I believe, today?

1360 The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, I did say it could get complex. The idea of expanding this

Committee more and more is going to mean that we will have another talking shop. I am already very concerned that this Committee of mine could become nothing more than a talking shop, 1365 because actually the power is held within those parties who own and are responsible for the land, whether that be the Department of Infrastructure or Douglas Corporation, or whether it be the private sector investors and developers.

I will bring all of these supplementary questions in Hansard to the Committee next time for consideration; however, at some stage we have got to get on and do something with lower 1370 Douglas. (Mr Corkish: Hear, hear.) That is an issue the Department of Infrastructure is progressing already. This is a wider picture for central Douglas, which is a larger expanded area, and therefore we can talk and talk and talk, or we can try and come forward with some recommendations for people to determine. That is my intention: to try and come forward with things that we can actually present as options and recommendations, rather than just a talking 1375 shop.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. 1380 This is just duplication, isn’t it? Isn’t it unnecessary duplication? The Minister seems to be

suggesting that all these other committees and organisations referred to by the Hon. Member for West Douglas, Mr Thomas, are not delivering sufficiently, and that is why this high-powered Committee has been put together to deliver a central Douglas masterplan.

Would he agree with me that it is duplication while the others still are in being, such as, for 1385 example, the Douglas Development Partnership? Where does that fit into the equation, bearing in mind that it was the Council of Ministers who put in charge, to chair that Development Partnership, a Minister, the Minister for Infrastructure, to feed back to the Council of Ministers representative of private sector, public sector, third sector and Government? What is going on, can I ask, Madam President? What is going on? 1390

The Minister says he does not want a talking shop, but it seems to me that he has set up a more high-flying, more powerful talking shop, and that we will actually never get anywhere.

The President: Minister. 1395 The Minister: I am grateful for the Hon. Member’s confidence. (Laughter) What she refers to

as duplication could alternatively be described as co-ordination. The Hon. Member for East Douglas understandably has an interest in this area as it has been an area she has represented for 17 years, and she and her views will be important. One of the difficulties is that, at times, other vested interests and parties cannot see the wood for the trees. The issue of this, I have 1400 said, is the co-ordination and trying to ensure that we do not have another 25 years of that area not being developed.

We know, within the Department of Economic Development and now this Committee, that there is genuine interest in development in this area. Our role is to try and ensure that what is put there is not piecemeal the benefits in the short term, but actually supports the longer-term 1405 economic regeneration. Part of that is car parking, part of that is leisure facilities, hotel facilities and the restaurants, cafés and even shops and domestic residentials that we have all talked about.


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I can share the Hon. Member for East Douglas’s concerns. I do fear a level of duplication. That is why the Ministers who have been put onto that have to try and avoid it becoming exactly 1410 what she is fearful of, and if in six months’ time that is the case, I assure you I will come back to this Court and recommend that the Committee is disbanded, because unless we make progress there is no purpose.

A Member: Hear, hear. 1415 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Minister agree that this is a golden opportunity for Douglas to create a new 1420

experience for the people of Douglas, the Island and our visitors alike? Would he also agree that it is equally important that other towns and villages are also given

the help and vision to stimulate them also? Would he also not agree with me that any vision should not just be Douglas focused but should be Island focused as well?

1425 The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, my good friend in West Douglas, Mr Thomas, and I probably

disagree totally on what should happen in lower Douglas and central Douglas. That is the dilemma: we cannot please everybody. Everybody wants to have their say, and at the moment 1430 that is what we have been doing, going round in circles for years.

The Hon. Member for Castletown is absolutely right, this is a golden opportunity – so why hasn’t it been done yet? Because it is difficult, because everybody conflicts and has different views on it.

With regard to the towns and villages, the regeneration scheme that was introduced in the 1435 last Court continues at a pace – significant levels of money going into that, particular to those… and I would say the Ramsey area is a good example of the forward-thinking ones who have taken advantage of that and are really making significant progress.

This has got to be something which centralises around the Douglas area, which is the only population large enough to sustain the real retail and business community on the Island. We will 1440 do everything, as we are, within the business community to encourage people and businesses to set up outside of Douglas – we are supporting them with discounted or free rent outside of Douglas to take businesses there – but this, as a destination in the heart of Douglas, has to be one opportunity, and I am afraid I and everybody else will have to come forward with areas where we can agree that it is in the best interest, even if it is not particularly what we want as an 1445 outcome.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. 1450 Just a small point. In the original Question, it asks about the role, membership and the

budget, and the Minister did refer to the fact that there is going to be a budget, but he did not advise the Court as to how much. May I ask him how much budget is going to be given, please?

The President: Minister. 1455 The Minister: I cannot answer that, Madam President, because it is not a finite amount. We

are attempting to do the co-ordination role; however, we have recently agreed that we would require external advice for this and that is going to be a few tens of thousands of pounds which will be found by the Chief Secretary’s Office and my Department. I am not going to give the 1460


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actual figure, because again that tells the parties how much our budget is, but I do not expect that we will be spending much money, because as she has pointed out in her original supplementary question, many of the other committees and parties involved are the ones who have budgets and now are spending it.

Our role is getting all the people around the table to ensure they know what is going on. If 1465 the Hon. Member and others try and see it a bit like digging up the roads, how many times have we been frustrated that we do a new layer of road and then one of the utilities comes along and digs it up again? We are attempting to make sure none of that happens in this area, so we do not want parties running off on their own little pet subject and finding that that has actually cut across one of the other interests. So, all parties are represented to make sure we co-ordinate it. 1470

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

12-13. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 5th Assessment Report – Statement on findings; actions to be taken

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

If he will make a statement on the publication of the latest Climate Change Report (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 5th Assessment Report) including its main findings and the possible impacts locally and internationally?

What action his Department will be taking in the light of the publication of the latest climate change report (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 5th Assessment Report); and if he will brief Tynwald Members on the information and findings?

The President: Hon. Members, in an hour and three quarters, we have put through 11

Questions, so I propose to move on. Questions 12 and 13 are to be answered by the Minister for Environment, Food and

Agriculture, who seeks to answer them together. The Member who is asking the Questions is happy to accept that, so I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, to ask 1475 Questions 12 and 13.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied ny feyshtyn y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask Questions 12 and 13

together. 1480 Thank you. The President: The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to reply. The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 1485 Perhaps an issue even more important than the Central Douglas Masterplan. To put the latest Climate Change Report in context, it is the first of three reports which will

eventually make up the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) 5th Assessment Report. A total of 209 lead authors and 50 review editors from 39 countries, and more than 600 contributing authors from 32 countries contributed to its preparation. It deals with the physical 1490 science basis of climate change only: a second working group will report on the impacts of climate change and adaptation and vulnerability to its effects in late March 2014; a third


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working group will report on the mitigation of climate change in early April 2014; and a synthesis report will be published at the end of October 2014.

The essential findings of the latest Report are that warming of the climate system is 1495 unequivocal, and since the 1950s, many of the observed changes are unprecedented over decades to millennia. The atmosphere and ocean have warmed, the amounts of snow and ice have diminished, sea level has risen and the concentrations of greenhouse gases have increased. The conclusion of the authors is that it is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century. There is a 95% certainty of 1500 this. This simply shows that we have now even greater confidence in what we already thought.

Atmospheric concentrations of three key greenhouse gases have increased to levels unprecedented in the last 800,000 years. Carbon dioxide concentrations have increased by 40% since pre-industrial times, primarily from fossil fuel emissions and secondarily from net land-use change emissions. The warming is largely irreversible and under all scenarios is likely to exceed 1505 1½° relative to the 1850-1900 temperatures. On our current path, it is likely that temperature increases will exceed 2°C. There is high confidence that most of the heat, about 90%, is going into the oceans. Current rates of ocean acidification are unprecedented and further uptake of carbon by the ocean will increase ocean acidification. There is high confidence that the pH of ocean surface water has decreased by 0.1 since the beginning of the industrial era, which means 1510 that there has been a 26% increase in hydrogen iron concentration.

There is high confidence that climate change will affect carbon cycle processes in a way that will exacerbate the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. There will be feedbacks as a result of rising temperatures, which means accelerated release of greenhouse gases. There is high confidence that the rate of sea level rise since the mid-19th century has been higher than 1515 the mean rate during the previous two millennia and it is very likely, under all scenarios, that the rate of sea-level rise due to increased ocean warming and loss of mass from glaciers and ice sheets will exceed that observed during the years 1971- 2010.

It has also been agreed internationally at previous climate change talks that to prevent dangerous levels of climate change we need to limit mean surface temperature increases to 2°C. 1520 It is worrying, then, that this Report states that to achieve this it is likely we will require cumulative carbon dioxide emissions to be limited to 1,000 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide, and when non-carbon dioxide factors are taken into account this figure is 800 gigatonnes. To put this into perspective, we have already admitted approximately 530 gigatonnes into the atmosphere, meaning we have used up two thirds of our total allowance already, and if we held emissions 1525 constant at today’s levels, we have exactly 30 years left before we would have to instantly cut all carbon emissions to zero forever.

With the relentless economic growth in countries such as China and India, which are reliant on carbon-intensive processes such as coal-fired power plants, and the complete lack at an international level of clear policies or strategies to do anything of merit to date to reduce global 1530 emissions, it is hard to see how this can be achieved. This lack of international progress is, however, no excuse for us not to take any active role ourselves.

Members may well remember that in May Tynwald unanimously agreed a target of reducing carbon dioxide emissions by 80% by the year 2050 – this is from 1990 levels – and my Department is developing a Climate Change Bill, which should be out to consultation in the next 1535 six months, which will involve Government assessing the risks to the Isle of Man posed by climate change and developing an adaptation strategy to manage these risks.

To achieve our 2050 target, we will have to consider the following: in the long term, a move away from petrol and diesel-fuelled surface transport, looking to alternatives such as electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel cell technology; reduce emissions from our homes to near zero – this 1540 will require significant improvements to the energy performance of existing building stock, shifting away from fossil fuels for space heating and zero carbon standards for the construction of new homes; improving the energy efficiency of industry in the Isle of Man; ensuring farming practices are as efficient as possible with respect to fuel consumption, use of fertilisers, land-use


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practices, and also ensure that emissions from the management of livestock and manure are as 1545 low as possible; ensuring our Island’s waste is managed in such a way as to minimise potential greenhouse gas emissions. There will likely be an increase in demand for electricity, and so virtually all electricity will have to come from renewable sources, nuclear or fossil fuel with carbon captures and storage. Links with neighbouring jurisdictions will be essential.

I have to say, Hon. Members, none of these solutions will be easy to achieve and many, if not 1550 all, will prove unpopular. However, with climate change being the greatest threat to face humanity, strong action will be necessary.

The local impacts of climate change are already modelled for us by the UK Climate Impacts Programme, based at Oxford University. The main area of concern for us on a local level comes from coastal flooding due to sea-level rise and the impacts on coastal communities, businesses 1555 and infrastructure. It would be prudent for us to consider the effects of climate change on current and planned infrastructure as part of our adaptation strategy, and I know that the Department of Infrastructure is very much aware of this.

The forthcoming IPCC report, mentioned earlier in my Answer, will detail how climate change is expected to impact on the global level and will no doubt address global food security matters 1560 in a world with an ever-increasing population and diminishing resources.

Gura mie eu. The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson. 1565 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Shirveishagh for his full and comprehensive Answer. I think by a brief to Tynwald

Members I was referring to a private briefing perhaps to expedite matters. Could he indicate how the relevant findings can be implemented here into Government

policy, of which he spoke, from the Report in a meaningful way so that we can take our own 1570 small actions in regard to the face of this global threat?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 1575 I am certainly more than happy to give further briefings. Particularly when future IPCC

reports become available, I would be very happy to do that for Members. Indeed, I think it is such an important issue that we really need to start getting briefings out for the public – maybe get some eminent speakers to come to the Island and explain what is actually happening, because if you listen to or read most of the popular media you would believe that this is all some 1580 kind of mythical problem made up by scientists who are on some sort of gravy train. That is a really unfortunate view that is being pumped out by the media, but it is a popular view and it sells newspapers and sells advertising on radio stations. It is unfortunate, and the more we can actually get the truth out there the better.

This Report is being very explicit and very clear now. There is limited room for doubt and that 1585 doubt is more about how significant is the impact humankind has had on the climate. It is not a question of has there been an impact; it is absolutely clear to the scientists now that there has been an impact.

As far as what we can do, we can do quite a lot in the Island. Our impact will be relatively small in terms of overall global emissions, but if everyone takes the view that someone else is 1590 responsible for the problem, no-one will deal with the problem, and I think this is what we are finding certainly in relation to the international response so far. The Isle of Man needs to play its part; it needs to be responsible.

I think the other side to this, the other side of the coin, is that the Isle of Man is well placed to benefit from actions that will be taken certainly in the United Kingdom to try and reduce 1595 emissions there, particularly in relation to renewable energy. So there are opportunities for us,


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added to which the obvious steps that we can take are in relation to reducing energy costs in our homes and we can do that by significantly improving insulation across the housing stock in the Isle of Man. There are vast areas of improvement there. We know that housing stocks in the Isle of Man… certainly the older housing stock is in fairly poor condition when it comes to energy 1600 efficiency, so there are issues we can deal with there.

There will be steps that we will have to take which will not be popular with the public and we have to be aware of this. This is a major threat to the survival of humanity – and some may say that it is a bit of scaremongering, but if you read the 1,300-plus pages in the Report you may be convinced that this is a serious problem that we need to do something about. 1605

The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Would the Minister confirm that he will be pushing the main points, the executive findings of 1610

this Report, at Council of Ministers, and will be seeking ways in which it can be filtered into future Government policy?

The President: Minister. 1615 The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The straight answer is yes, that is my role as Environment Minister, but regardless of my role

and, I would hope, regardless of the role of any Member in this Court, we should all be pushing this. This is such a serious issue.

It is very easy for us to get deflected off course when it comes to things like this. We tend to 1620 follow where the latest complaint, the latest e-mail or the latest letter takes us, rather than sticking to the clarity of vision that we perhaps need, and on this particular issue… Yes, we probably have got a little bit of time to react to this, but we cannot be complacent. We cannot just sit back and say, ‘Oh, well, we have got some big financial issues that we are trying to tackle at the moment in the Isle of Man, so we cannot afford to do anything about this in the short 1625 term, but we will sort it out at some mythical date in the future.’

We actually need to start now, and there are opportunities for us to start making real savings, in terms of particularly energy waste, so I think there are steps that we can start taking. Indeed, I think we already have taken quite a few steps, particularly in relation to public sector housing and improving energy efficiency there, but there are more steps that we can take and 1630 certainly I will be doing everything I can, both in the Department and Council of Ministers and in Tynwald, to promote the message that we have to take serious action to tackle climate change.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Singer. 1635 Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. Listening to the Minister talk about CO2 and the fact that the Australian and Chinese

governments, to name but two large countries, are building many more coal-fired power plants, can he explain to me why, over the last few years, the Arctic polar ice covering has, in fact, dramatically increased? It has totally reversed. Can he explain that? 1640

The President: Minister. The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I can explain that to the Hon. Member. He is obviously reading the wrong newspapers. 1645

(Laughter and interjection) Unfortunately, this does not work for the listener at home, but if you actually look at decreasing levels of sea ice, you see this sort of effect going on. So there are


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troughs and peaks, but the general trend is a very clear decrease in sea ice. There is no doubt about that. (Interjection) Photographic evidence is clear; all the evidence is clear.

I had the opportunity recently to hear a speaker from the Faroe Islands, who studies Arctic 1650 sea ice, making absolute impassioned pleas for people in our part of the world to wake up to this problem. It is a serious, serious problem. At the moment, there is absolute clarity that there are various effects on the Atlantic current as a result of melting ice, particularly in the Arctic. The main driver for the Gulf Stream is still holding up, but it is slowing down significantly – but there is a smaller driver coming between Greenland and Canada, which is at serious risk of stopping 1655 altogether. If we lose these Atlantic currents, we will lose the Gulf Stream; so yes, actually, we might find it is going to be an awful lot colder in the Isle of Man. That does not affect the fact that global warming is still happening.

If the Hon. Member for Ramsey wishes to take on the weight of global scientific opinion – I know he has a degree in science, so perhaps he believes his knowledge of the subject is better 1660 than (Interjection) the several hundred authors who have written this Report – then I would be more than happy to listen to him taking on these people in a rational scientific debate.

The evidence is clear. There are 1,300 pages in this Report. I must claim I have not read the whole lot, but I have read a fair bit of the Report and it is clear; it is absolutely clear. Yes, there are occasional increases in sea ice, but the general trend is very definitely down. We have a 1665 major problem affecting the Earth at the moment and we need to take it seriously.

HEALTH

14. Noble’s Hospital – Arrangements for feeding patients

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Health:

What arrangements there are at Noble’s Hospital to feed patients who are unable to assist themselves; and why patients’ food delivered to the ward is left in an inaccessible position or delivered late to the patient?

The President: Question 14. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 1670 The President: The Minister for Health to reply. Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President. I can confirm there are arrangements in place to feed patients who are unable to assist 1675

themselves at Noble’s Hospital. For a number of years now, the Hospital has had in place a programme called ‘Transforming

Care’. This programme of quality improvement looks at the very fundamentals of care given to patients and ensures that the right standard of care is put in place. This includes the provision of food and drink to patients. 1680

Through this programme, the Hospital has put in place a… [Inaudible] action group, who work with the clinical teams to ensure that high standards of food and drink provision are put in place, not only in the quality of the food, but to ensure that patients receive the appropriate assistance when required.


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The Hospital has two critical policies in place which describe the importance that good 1685 nutrition plays in assisting patients’ recovery from illness and the roles and responsibilities of staff ensuring that meals are protected and uninterrupted, and that those who are at risk of malnutrition or who are unable to feed themselves receive appropriate assistance to meet individuals’ nutritional needs. These are the patients’ protected mealtime policy and the red tray policy. The protected mealtime policy has been in place since 2004 and the red tray policy since 1690 2007. These have been regularly reviewed in line with good practice. The third policy ensures that all patients receive a nutritional assessment within 48 hours of admission to the Hospital.

The protected mealtime policy ensures that no on-ward interventions take place unless it is an emergency or essential activity and it ensures that all staff are available to assist with the delivery of patients’ meals. 1695

The red tray system provides a visible reminder that a patient requires additional support or assistance with their nutritional needs. That can either be keeping a watchful eye over how much the patient has eaten and ensuring it is monitored, or actually assisting the patient to eat their meal.

The Hospital is not complacent in relation to this matter… [Inaudible] a vitally important one. 1700 Therefore, they have a number of ways in which it is closely monitored. These include observations of care during mealtimes by senior practitioners. This is… [Inaudible] and inspecting, the questioning of patients on their patient experience indicators by patient and public representatives on a monthly basis on all wards, and via questioning the patient safety walks. 1705

I think we should note here that we cannot identify any formal complaints relating to patients not being assisted with their food or drink at the Hospital within the last 12 months. If, however, the Hon. Member knows of a specific individual case, then I think it is more important that he brings it to my attention and allows me and the Hospital team to look into it.

There are, however, times when a patient’s food and drink may be left for a very short time 1710 to cool down before a member of staff comes back to help. Indeed, the Director of Nursing told me, when I enquired about this matter just last week, that she has recently been working on a ward, caring in a bay for two highly confused patients who need special one-to-one nursing patient care, and she had been required to sit with both of them with their afternoon tea. While she helped the first, she relocated the other gentleman’s cup of hot tea and put it out of his 1715 reach, secure, to ensure his safety. She was conscious that he may reach out for it, spill it and burn himself with the hot fluid. If somebody looked at that situation from the outside, they may think that this cup of tea was left out of his reach, but it was done quite deliberately and with the patient’s best interest in mind.

Finally, in addition to this, I would add that, in support of our nursing teams, we have trained 1720 up 13 volunteers as dining companions, who sit with patients, especially those who are elderly, providing social interaction, support and encouragement during mealtimes. These are based, at lunchtimes, on the wards where there is the greatest need, such as the acute medical wards.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Houghton. 1725 Mr Houghton: Madam President, in a case, even this morning, when the Chief Minister

stated that there were serious structural and longstanding problems at Noble’s Hospital, can the Minister actually confirm whether he is aware or otherwise that patients, on some occasions, are being left with food that is inaccessible to them or delivered cold? Can he just simply confirm 1730 that? Is he aware of it? If he is not aware of it, can he confirm that?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, in my comprehensive Answer to the Hon. Member, I made 1735

it quite clear there had been no complaints in the last 12 months in relation to this issue.


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If the Hon. Member has got an incident he wants to bring to my attention that we can look into, I am more than happy to do that.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Houghton. 1740 Mr Houghton: Yes. Thank you, Madam President. In the case of his red tray policy and his protected mealtime policy, the latter of which was

brought in at my representation about this same matter some years ago, can he confirm that the trays are still properly delivered to the right patient – to the patient who requires that treatment 1745 – or otherwise? Has he found anything in that area different than what we are saying in this Court today?

The President: Minister. 1750 The Minister: No, I have not found that, personally, Madam President, but if the Hon.

Member has an issue and he brings it to my attention, I am more than happy to look into it. I believe that what we have done at Noble’s Hospital has addressed the issues the Hon. Member has raised in the past and we have no recollection of any event in the last 12 months where this has been a problem. 1755

Mr Houghton: Could I finally confirm, Madam President, that the Minister is telling this Court

that this does not happen? That is all I require today from him, Madam President. The President: Minister, there is a difference, isn’t there? 1760 The Minister: There is a difference, Madam President. What I am saying is if anybody has

this… I have no knowledge of this. If anybody has that knowledge, please bring it to my attention.

1765 The President: Supplementary, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Could I just ask the Minister, then... I recently took part in a patient walk on ward 20, and just

to give to the Minister... and hopefully he will agree with me, because this is the truth, because I 1770 was there. I interviewed a number of patients who were in that particular ward and they were quite satisfied with the meals. Would the Minister agree with me that when you are unwell in a hospital, sometimes it becomes an issue where people lose their appetites?

The President: Minister. 1775 The Minister: I would agree with the Hon. Member. The quality of food for patients

recovering from illness is very important and the Hospital staff do their best, through the catering system, to make sure that individual needs are met. (Interjection by Mr Houghton)

1780 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall. Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. Just following on from the comments from the Hon. Member for Douglas North, the Minister

stated that he has got no knowledge of this going on and asked the Member for Douglas North 1785 to bring something if there is any evidence; but will the Minister be proactive and will he go to the Hospital management and whoever else in the Hospital to ask them whether or not this is happening?


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Mr Henderson: He has. 1790 The President: Supplementary. The Minister: Madam President, the information that I gave to Hon. Members this morning

comes from Hospital management. They have put these procedures in place because there was seen to be a deficiency here some years ago. I think the system is working very well and I hope 1795 when the Hon. Member takes the opportunity to go on a patient safety walk he asks the patients themselves. (Interjection by Mr Houghton)

The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. 1800 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not consider the reason why no-one has

complained is because the complaints system is seen as a done deal as far as that issue is concerned?

Would he also not consider that, whilst my hon. colleague went on the walk, I have had people who are both constituents and non-constituents actually in bemusement of this so-called 1805 walk around as far as the Hon. Member for Onchan is concerned?

Does he not feel that the situation is he just simply is not living in the real world as far as his Department’s realities are and what he thinks? (Interjections)

The President: Minister. 1810 The Minister: Madam President, I do not know – was there a question there? All I would say to the Hon. Member is I would encourage him to come and take part in a

patient safety walk and witness for himself. 1815 Mr Houghton: Go unannounced. (Interjection)

15. Primary care in the community – Current policy

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Health:

Whether it is current policy to deliver primary care in the community? The President: Question 15. The Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. 1820 I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Minister for Health to reply. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, primary care refers to the 1825

principal point of consultation for patients within the Health Service who can co-ordinate other specialists that the patient may need. General practitioners are the main primary care provider, though many other professionals provide primary and community health services.

The Department of Health has always provided primary care in the community health services within the community. The vision of the Department is to enable even more healthcare 1830


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to be delivered outside the Hospital and closer to the patients’ homes and communities. This vision is clearly set out in the Department of Health 10-year Strategy for the Future of Health Services, which states:

‘Primary care, including community services, will undertake some of the treatment presently provided by the hospital and will also play a key role in prevention, screening and early detection.’ 1835 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you very much, Madam President. Given the Minister’s Answer, then, on the importance they are attaching to delivering

primary care in the community, why was it that his Department blithely let the Ramsey Group 1840 Practice withdraw their services from Kirk Michael?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, as the Hon. Member is aware, that decision was a decision 1845

of the Ramsey Group Practice; however, it was based on a falling attendance at the Kirk Michael surgery over a number of years and the Hon. Member is aware that Members of the general public in Kirk Michael can access services in other places, as other people do.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall. 1850 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. Can the Minister confirm, with regard to delivering primary care in the community, is this

policy he is pursuing being done from a budgetary perspective, or is it being done in the best interests of the patient and from a patient safety point of view? 1855

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, I confirm it is being done on both counts. It is far cheaper to

deliver healthcare in the community than it is in a hospital – that is a given fact – and also it is 1860 giving access in a more timely manner to patients in the community.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. 1865 Actually, isn’t it the truth, Health Minister, that there is plenty of demand in Kirk Michael for

an additional surgery (Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.); that it is extremely difficult for the residents of Kirk Michael to get appointments in the western practice and also in the Ramsey practice; and isn’t the truth of the matter – with regard to Kirk Michael and the withdrawal of doctors’ facilities there, when it is the policy of the Health Service to deliver primary care in the 1870 community – that actually he and his Department would rather see the elderly residents of Kirk Michael suffer a two-to-three-hour round trip to Jurby by bus, rather than have to justify why his Department built a £1.8 million health centre in Jurby which is hardly used?

The President: Minister. 1875 The Minister: Madam President, the residents of Kirk Michael the Hon. Member refers to can

access the Ramsey GP services in Ramsey, as other people do in that area. Obviously, every village in the Island has elderly residents. Ideally, it would be lovely to have

a community facility in every village, but the Hon. Member must recognise – and he is one of the 1880


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ones who have been saying about Government making savings – we have got to locate facilities where they are most appropriate to be located.

Quite clearly, the Hon. Member disagrees with decisions taken by this Department over a number of years to strategically put a Jurby healthcare centre in place that would service the villages round about, and if the Hon. Member reflects that we also have the prison at Jurby, 1885 where the Ramsey GP practice delivers its services, it is far more convenient for the north of the Island to have a facility based in Jurby, where there are regular visits from GPs.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. 1890 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Minister acknowledge that primary care is actually being put under, I would say,

inordinate pressure at the moment because of having to deal with such unacceptable waiting lists? GPs are spending a lot of their time actually trying to have their patients moved up as their condition deteriorates because they are not being seen at an acceptable time for their 1895 condition?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Primary care, Madam President, like the whole of the Health Service, is under 1900

pressure. People are expecting more interventions in their lifetimes and this is putting more pressure on not just primary care but the Hospital facilities as well.

We are working very closely with GPs and we have now had several working groups with GPs to help them to manage their patients in a more timely manner and sometimes to redirect patients, rather than straight to the consultants, to other areas for interventions in a more 1905 timely fashion.

I do acknowledge that we do have significant problems with waiting lists. We have made progress in some areas, but we are struggling in other areas. We will continue to update Members on progress that we are having and to acknowledge areas where we are struggling, but it is a resource issue. 1910

The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. Given what the Health Minister has just said about the delivery of primary care in the 1915

community helping in terms of costs and efficiency, will he give me a reassurance that he will therefore look again with some urgency at the establishment of a health centre or surgery in Kirk Michael so that the residents of that area can be treated more effectively and more efficiently, thus saving costs and easing pressure on the Hospital and the waiting lists?

1920 The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, primary care is looking at the best place to strategically

place care in the community. As we might see developments in Kirk Michael in the future, I am sure there will be then a business case for putting a full-time surgery back in Kirk Michael. 1925


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16. Audiology – Ramsey District Cottage Hospital and Thie Rosien

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Singer) to ask the Minister for Health:

Why the Department is failing to provide an audiology service at Ramsey District Cottage Hospital and Thie Rosien in Port Erin? The President: Question 16. The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. 1930 The President: The Minister for Health to reply. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President. The audiology service in the Isle of Man is provided by a very small team with an 1935

establishment of 3.7 full-time equivalent audiologists inclusive of a disability employment service post.

Recently, one of the audiologists has left the Island and another is taking a short career break. We have brought in some support to maintain a full service for Noble’s Hospital and have had to reduce the outreach clinics in order to provide this. This is a temporary situation and will 1940 resolve with the return to work of the staff member who is taking a career break.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Singer. Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. 1945 I thank the Minister for his Answer, but as there is a difficulty in recruiting qualified

audiologists, why is the Department concentrating this service solely in Douglas for what is actually an unspecified time, because we were told that they would not get anybody until next year?

Why cannot a present audiologist attend Ramsey and Port Erin one half day each week, as 1950 there is no guaranteed early recruitment of another audiologist to bring back the original service?

The President: Minister. 1955 The Minister: Madam President, economies of scale dictate that the best value we get is by

centralising our service at the moment with the reduced number of staff in one location, and that is obviously what we are doing. Yes, it would be nice to have two half-day sessions, one in the north and one in the south, but we would actually lose capacity in the system. This is a short-term measure, and hopefully the situation which formerly existed will be put into place before 1960 too long.

The President: Further supplementary, Mr Singer. Mr Singer: Madam President, I would dispute it is a short-term measure if we do not know 1965

when we are going to get the service back. We are told it is going to be into the New Year. Would the Minister agree with me that the majority of patients needing to see an audiologist

are in the older age groups, and they are being forced now to attend Douglas, which might not be possible for many reasons, so they are being deprived of an important service which is important for their communication and their sound wellbeing? 1970


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Will the Minister review this arrangement again and look at the proposal that I have suggested, that an audiologist does attend at least one half day a week in Ramsey and in Port Erin?

The President: Minister. 1975 The Minister: Madam President, I will repeat for the Hon. Member that to get the best use

out of the audiologists we have is to locate them in one position. When we get to the position where we have the return from a career break of the other audiologist, then we will be in a position to do what the Hon. Member would like us to do. 1980

We would like to do things in a way which every Member in this Hon. Court would like to. We would like to have surgeries in every village and audiologists in the north, south, east and west. We have to wake up in this Hon. Court to what we can afford, what is realistic and what is practical.

1985 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh son Slaynt not agree that many in this Hon.

Court actually empathise and sympathise on the likes of the issues such as the fact that it is better that you have an audiologist actually doing the job rather than spending their time 1990 travelling either to the north or the south of the Island; just like the issue as far as if GPs do not want to open surgeries in different parts of the Island – they are self-employed? But does he not feel that whilst that is… In these issues you have legitimate justification for those things. Issues like the previous one about the issue of patients being fed, you justify things that are unjustifiable. 1995

Would he not agree that if he was a bit more open and frank with Members and a little more consistent as far as his way that he replies to questions, he actually might get more sympathy from this Hon. Court, allowing that we do know we are in economically hard times?

The President: Minister, you may or may not answer that. It is not really about the Health 2000

Service. The Minister: I do not know if there was a question there, but I would turn it round to the

Hon. Member and say whenever we have invitations to Hon. Members to come and learn for themselves and to experience patient safety walks, I would encourage Hon. Members to do that 2005 so they have a better understanding themselves. So far, the Hon. Member has not availed himself of that opportunity.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Singer. 2010 Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. I have just one more question, if I may. The Minister talks about having to wake up. Surely he should have to wake up to the fact that

he is now, for several months, depriving people in the south and in the north who need an audiologist, people who cannot get into Douglas very easily or cannot get in at all. He is depriving them of this service and he could well change the service only in a small way and not 2015 talk about this long-distance travelling. It is not a long distance to go there and back to the north and the south. He could provide this service for half a day to the people who actually need to see an audiologist.

The President: Minister, I think we are into a repeat. 2020


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The Minister: I think the Hon. Member has just answered his own question. He is saying it is not a long distance to travel to the north or the south.

Mr Singer: For the audiologist, who has got a car. 2025

17. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Terms of Reference

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health:

If he will make a statement on the terms of reference he has given to the West Midlands Quality Review Service? The President: Question 17. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. 2030 The President: Minister for Health to reply. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President. I have made it quite clear that I wish for the West Midlands Quality Review Service (WMQRS), 2035

a highly regarded NHS organisation, to undertake reviews of the healthcare services in the Isle of Man in a way that is exactly consistent with their procedures when they are working in the United Kingdom. Consequently, the WMQRS terms of reference will involve them applying their ‘Principles and Approach’, a comprehensive document which sets out how their review process works. 2040

I do not intend to set out now every element of their ‘Principles and Approach’ document, but its aims address matters such as ensuring care pathways are as safe as possible, improving the quality and effectiveness of care, improving the patient experience by development and learning for all involved, and supporting and adding value to organisations’ own quality assurance review systems. 2045

Madam President, the ‘Principles and Approach’ document will be available on the website. They will have a website specifically for the Isle of Man, but it will be the same as they use in the UK.

The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft. 2050 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Having the basic principles is all very well, but surely you must have given them some sort of

terms of reference as to what you would like them to look at first. You have broadened it out to cover the whole of the health services, rather than just Noble’s, in the last sitting of Tynwald, 2055 and so surely you must be saying look at Noble’s first, look at mental health, look at whatever. You must have given them some indication of what you actually wanted them to do.

The President: Minister. 2060 The Minister: Madam President, as I have said all along, the intention has always been to

look at the whole of the health services but to prioritise initially the most critical areas in Noble’s Hospital, and that is what they are doing. The most vulnerable patients at Noble’s Hospital, in


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areas such as critical care and A&E – those are the areas in which they will be doing their first audit, and as that takes place then we will be building on others. However, they are well into 2065 that now and they have already had two visits to the Island and have explained in detail to clinicians and people working in the Hospital what they expect and what co-operation they expect, and to that effect there is a programme board that has been put in place to make sure they get every assistance in their efforts on the Island.

2070 The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker. The Speaker: Madam President, can ask the Minister what is to be the expected cost of this

review and from which budget will it be met? 2075 The President: Minister. The Minister: The total cost is likely to be something like £300,000 over three years, and that

money has to be found within the Health Service itself. That is something that we have always anticipated and we think it will be money very well spent. As I have already highlighted, work is 2080 underway and hopefully they will have completed the first tranche of work early in the New Year.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. 2085 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Minister confirm that critical care is the first area to be looked at and A&E is the

second one? Do you have a third? Do you know how many areas are going to be looked at within the Hospital before they look at any other areas? Do you have a plan that you can actually share with us? 2090

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, I am happy to share that plan with Hon. Members and to

give them details of what they are looking at. A&E and critical care will be looked at at the same 2095 time within the Hospital. I am very happy to give that timetable to Hon. Members and I will circulate it.

18. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Timetable


If he will make a statement on the timescale of the independent review by the West Midlands Quality Review Service? The President: Question 18. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft. 2100 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: Minister for Health to reply. 2105


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The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the first independent review to be taken by the West Midlands Quality Review Service (WMQRS) will be care of the most critically ill patients at Noble’s Hospital, as we have just talked about, which includes theatres and anaesthetics, together with A&E and critical care. This will take place in November, although preparation work, as I have already said, is already taking place, including two visits already 2110 made by personnel.

As I have said on previous occasions, they will be reviewing the provision of healthcare from a wider perspective and I anticipate the next stage of the review process taking place early in 2014 and continuing throughout the next year. As I said earlier, the entire process is likely to take over three years. 2115

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Minister for his responses on this, but given that the Chief Minister has already 2120

made it clear that mental health issues should be given a higher priority than they have been given in the past, could you give an indication of where in the timescales this review body will be looking at mental health issues?

The President: Minister. 2125 The Minister: Madam President, when the detail on the timescales has been worked out, as I

said earlier, I am happy to circulate that to Hon. Members. I am not aware where mental health sits in that matrix at the moment.

2130 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. In order to be helpful to the Minister, would it not be prudent that when he has further and

better information regarding the review – what they are going to examine, when they are going 2135 to examine it and when they expect to report – he can provide a presentation to Hon. Members to give them the necessary reassurance that they require?

The President: Minister. 2140 The Minister: I am more than happy to talk to the team from West Midlands to see if they

can fit that into their timetable to give a presentation, maybe some lunchtime, to Hon. Members.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. 2145 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I am actually quite surprised and I am wondering if the Minister could explain how he has

managed to give them terms of reference, employ these people, and yet does not have such basic information to hand today. 2150

The President: Minister. The Minister: I have already given an indication to the Hon. Member of the areas which they

will be looking at to start with. There are a lot of areas within Noble’s Hospital and I do not have 2155 the details of exactly… If you had asked me that question before now, I could have supplied it to


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you, but I am more than happy to show the Hon. Member the timetable. This is, we must remember, work in progress.

The President: Hon. Members, we have reached the time limit for Questions.

Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to complete Question Paper – Motion carried

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I wish to move the suspension of Standing Orders to allow the rest of 2160

these Questions to be answered. Especially with the Items on the agenda, I think think the Health Questions particularly need

to be answered so that people can make an assessment of where they want to vote. I do hope Hon. Members will support the suspension of Standing Orders so that we can have these Questions done. 2165

The President: Is the motion seconded?

Mr Cannan: I beg to second, Madam President.

The President: Put it to the vote, please. It will require 16 votes in the Keys and six in the Council to succeed.

Electronic voting resulted as follows: 2170 In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 7

FOR Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Cannan Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mrs Cannell Mr Robertshaw Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Skelly The Speaker

AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Bell Mr Teare Mr Cregeen Mr Shimmin Mr Watterson Mr Gawne

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 17 for, 7 against.


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In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 1

FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

AGAINST The Lord Bishop

The President: In the Council, 8 for and 1 against. The motion therefore carries. We will 2175

proceed with Questions. We will now adjourn for lunch. The adjournment will be until 2.30 p.m.

The Court adjourned at 1.00 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

19. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Publication of findings and interim reports


Whether the findings of the West Midlands Quality Review Service will be made public; and, if so, whether any interim reports will be made public as well? The President: We resume consideration of the Question Paper at Item 19. 2180 I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. 2185 The President: The Minister for Health to reply. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President. The findings of each individual review undertaken by the West Midlands Quality Review

Service (WMQRS) will be made public both by the Department and by the West Midlands 2190 Quality Review Service, who publish all their reports on their website.

In relation to the Question the Hon. Member asked me this morning, about planned timescale of the series of reviews to be undertaken, I was cognisant not to give any inaccurate information at that stage. Whilst the three-year plan has been determined in principle, it was being considered for ratification at the first programme board meeting yesterday, chaired by 2195 Ian Thompson, the recently retired CEO of DoI.

WMQRS have asked for some slight amendments and clarity to the programme. I am conscious not to give information which will be changed by the programme board and I will await their final version, which will be available to all Members and the public in the not-too-distant future. 2200

With regard to the mental health services, which the Hon. Member mentioned, the original timetable sets the review of those services in spring 2016. Once I receive confirmation of the reviewed timetable, this date can be confirmed or otherwise.


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The President: A supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft. 2205 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Minister for his reply, particularly for looking into the area that was raised this

morning and for giving as much information as you can today. Does he know at this stage how many individual reports there are going to be? He has confirmed they are going to be made 2210 individually as the review progresses, but have we any idea how many reports we can expect?

The President: Minister. The Minister: I have not got that detailed information. Some of them might be broken down 2215

into different areas. I am not sure until the review and the board has decided exactly the breakdown. Hon. Members will get that information as soon as it is confirmed.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran. 2220 Mr Karran: Can the Shirveishagh son Slaynt inform this Hon. Court again what is the role as

far as a former chief executive of the DTI… as far as this so-called independent review is concerned?

The President: Minister. 2225 The Minister: The West Midlands Policy Review Service determines, whenever they do these

audits, that there is a local programme board to assist them in the delivery of what they have to do, to make sure there are no blockages on our side of the fence and to make sure that everything runs as smoothly as possible. That is the role of the programme board. 2230

The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Does the Shirveishagh son Slaynt think that there is a possibility of that actually

being very forthcoming, as far as being independent is concerned? Does he not feel that there is 2235 a danger that they will not be pushed in the right direction, with the way things are going?

The President: Minister. The Minister: No, Madam President. 2240 The President: A supplementary, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Could the Minister just confirm, for this Court and the public – just for clarity, Eaghtyrane, 2245

because there is some pretty colourful spin being put on things this afternoon – that the independence, as far as I am aware and briefed, is coming from the West Midlands inquiry team itself that is overseeing the full thing, will be undertaking the full thing with some on-the-side assistance, which is what is being referred to, not the actual main thrust of the investigation?

2250 The President: Minister. The Minister: Yes, Madam President, I can confirm that the programme board assists the

review team in their deliberations and is always a local entity. 2255 The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran.


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Mr Karran: Does the Shirveishagh son Slaynt not agree that, whilst they might assist, they can assist in one direction and not another direction?

Would he not agree that it would have been better to get somebody outside the patronage system that we have at the present time, if we are to make sure that this is going to actually be 2260 independent and robust, and not like so many reports of the past where they are not worth the paper they are written on?

The President: There is a repeat statement, Minister. 2265 The Minister: Madam President, it is the West Midlands Review Service doing the report; we

will not have any influence on that. This programme board is to assist that body in doing their body of work; it might be useful if the Hon. Member comes to the presentation that I alluded we could do when the Hon. Member for East Douglas mentioned it might be useful to have a presentation about their work and how they do it. Maybe if the Hon. Member attends that – he 2270 does not very often attend presentations put on by the Department of Health – it will help him to understand it better.

20. Noble’s Hospital – New or revised policies, procedures and initiatives

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Health:

What new or revised policies, procedures or other initiatives he has introduced in Noble’s Hospital since July? The President: Question 20. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran – 2275 Mr Karran: [Inaudible]… Eaghtyrane, they are allowed to say whatever they like and you

defend them all… [Inaudible] (Interjections and laughter) They get away with murder in this place… [Inaudible] (Interjections)

The President: Question 20, the Hon. Member for Onchan. Do you wish to put your 2280

Question, sir? Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like him to clarify the point that – The President: I called you to put Question 20, Mr Karran. Do you wish to put your Question? 2285 Mr Karran: Of course I do. I would like to put my – The President: Then please do so. 2290 Mr Karran: – Question, as far as that is concerned. I also would like to see that this is an

independent parliamentary procedure as well, Eaghtyrane, as one of the senior Members of this Hon. Court. (Laughter)

I ask the Question standing in my name. 2295 The President: The Minister to reply.


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The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, it is not clear from the Question what type of revised policies, procedures or other initiatives the Hon. Member is referring to. However, I will, for the purpose of giving an Answer, assume he is referring to clinical policies, 2300 procedures and initiatives.

As you will be aware, it is not my responsibility as a politician to implement clinical policies and procedures at the Hospital; it is the responsibility of the clinical teams and clinicians involved in delivering care. This is then supported, where appropriate, by the senior management and leadership team, and by the Department. 2305

As part of the ongoing process of patient care improvement and service development, hospitals are continually reviewing their clinical policies and procedures in line with national guidance and professional advice. It is a continual process of development, which is co-ordinated by the Patient Safety and Quality Committee and the divisional teams at Noble’s.

As part of this ongoing process, a number of new policies, procedures and initiatives have 2310 been introduced since July. These include, for example, the red bleep policy for senior doctors; revised guidance for inspection of nasogastric tubes; new protocols for the transfer of major trauma patients from A&E to major trauma centres in the UK, at Aintree, based on new national guidance; revised and updated uniform policy; anaesthetic operating department practitioners resident on call; obstetric emergencies; protocol for the follow-up of bowel cancer patients 2315 ratified and ready for implementation; revised antibiotic policy for consultation with local GPs.

There are several more, Madam President. I do not intend to read them all out, but that just gives a flavour of the many that have been rolled out since July. It is a continually evolving process.

2320 The President: A supplementary question, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that most people who have been in

here a while understand the role as far as politicians are concerned? They are not there to do the clinical issues as far as… but they are there to develop the strategy, as far as the 2325 policymaking is concerned.

Does he feel that the fact is that there has been a void, as far as making the strategic policy so that there is the strategy, so that we do get a first-class Health Service, as far as that issue is concerned?

2330 The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, we do have a 10-year strategy for the Health Service and

the Hon. Member will be aware that we made a presentation in 2011. 2335 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Minister confirm that all of these new or revised policies, procedures and

initiatives, and everything else that has been introduced recently… will a list of these be made 2340 available to the West Midlands Quality Review panel so that they are aware of what has just been introduced and what has been there for a while?

The President: Minister. 2345 The Minister: I will look into that and confirm that. That is my belief, and they want to know

how we have developed as procedures have developed across the UK. We, at Noble’s Hospital, roll them out in the same timescale as they do in the UK, based on professional development and best practice. I think it is a given, but I will check.


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The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. 2350 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I just remind the Minister that one initiative that did take place with the support of the

Royal College of Nursing was the deep clean initiative that was done at the Hospital too, which is now currently being trialed by G4S. Can the Minister make a comment on that and how 2355 successful that has been – or has the trial taken place?

The President: Minister. The Minister: My understanding, Madam President, is that that is still ongoing. I do not know 2360

if the trial has been completed, but this was being done primarily to take pressure off staff within the Hospital.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. 2365 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Just a point of clarification please, if the Minister would. I am not sure if I quite heard him

correctly: did he say that we put in place policies, procedures and initiatives etc at the same time as the UK did?

2370 The President: Minister. The Minister: My understanding is, Madam President, that we bring in policies as and when,

as they do in UK hospitals, when people change the way things are done. Our clinicians are no different from the clinicians in the UK; they want the very best practice in their areas. That is 2375 why there are so many initiatives – I did not read all of them out – that have actually started or been rolled out from July; but it is an ongoing process.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran. 2380 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh… just to clarify that the issue, as far as the

timeline is concerned, as far as these initiatives are concerned, will be made public… not made public as well as to the independent body, as far as this review is concerned, so people can see when the action, as far as getting these issues were done… whether it has been recently since criticism and audit by this parliamentary Chamber has been going on, or was it done 2385 beforehand?

The President: Minister. The Minister: No, it is not as a result of pressure from Hon. Members; it is something that is 2390

done continually. I said that in my original Answer to the Hon. Member. It is something that is ongoing and takes place all the time in every hospital; not just on the Isle of Man, but in the UK.

21. Doctors and consultants – Termination of employment


What (a) doctors and (b) consultants have terminated their employment, or have had their employment terminated, since April 2013?


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The President: Question 21. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. 2395 The President: The Minister for Health to reply. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, concerning part (a) of the

Question, nine foundation doctors and four speciality doctors have terminated their 2400 employment since April 2013. Concerning part (b) of the question, no consultants have terminated their employment since April to the present date.

No doctors of any grade have had their employment terminated by the Department. The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran 2405 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh tell us, are there doctors being employed at the

present time who are not doing their job and are not up to the training to do their job; and what are we doing about this, allowing for the fact that we more likely spend something in the region of £200,000 a year on consultants? 2410

The President: Minister. The Minister: I think we are spending a lot more than £200,000 a year on consultants,

Madam President. 2415 In relation to doctors not coming up to the mark, that is an issue that the Clinical Director

deals with in the Department. The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran. 2420 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not understand the fact that I meant singular,

not compound, as far as the issue is concerned? Does he not feel that when we are talking, in so many areas of Government, about cuts and

having to… what do you call it… Can that be justified, to be keeping people on who are being paid these sort of wages and are not up to the job they are supposed to be being paid for at over 2425 £200,000 a year? If there is that case, what action is being taken to make sure we have some proportionality in Government when we talk about re-balancing the budget?

The President: Minister. 2430 The Minister: Madam President, I will say in response to the Member, I am not a mind

reader; I cannot understand sometimes what his questions mean. In relation to what he says about people employed within the Health Service, they have

rights as well. They have their rights, and therefore we have to follow procedures. Each one has individual rights and we have to make sure that we do not shortcut any of those rights. 2435

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. In respect of the nine doctors plus four specialist doctors who have terminated their 2440

employment, how many doctors are there altogether? I am just wondering what percentage it is.

Do we know why we are losing these 13? Did you do any sort of follow-up as to why they are terminating their employment?


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The President: Minister. 2445 The Minister: In relation to the nine foundation doctors and the one speciality doctor, they

reached the end of their limited-term appointments. They were only employed for a limited term, so there is nothing unusual about that. Of the three other leavers, two retired and one resigned. 2450

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I would just like the Health Minister to clarify that, in fact, the figures he has read out are not 2455

unusual and are pretty regular if measured against any other UK hospital; there is a turnover of medical staff.

With regard to an underperforming doctor, could the Minister maybe agree with me that the best way forward here would be to invite the Hon. Member for Onchan into his office for a private meeting to understand the concerns that the Hon. Member for Onchan may have 2460 concerning, if he has, an individual, and not to give the impression of the whole Hospital under suspicion?

The President: Minister. 2465 The Minister: Yes, I would like to thank the Hon. Member for his comments. The turnover of medical staff at Noble’s Hospital is relatively low compared with UK

hospitals, I am glad to say. In relation to the comments… My door is always open. The Hon. Member is always welcome

to come and talk to me, as are any other individual Members. (Interjection) 2470 The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that we have some excellent staff,

(Several Members: Hear, hear.) and everyone in this Hon. Court knows that there are excellent 2475 staff, as far as in the Health Service is concerned? But that does not mean that we have to try and turn black into white when it is wrong.

Would he not agree that… whilst he is defending the rights of workers, I hope he will be defending the rights of workers in the Health Service, of the cleaners, the porters and all the people who are the backbone of the Hospital, as far as their workers’ rights are concerned? 2480 (Interjection)

The President: Minister. The Minister: I think the Chief Minister will confirm that he has met many of the backbone 2485

staff of Noble’s Hospital, and I think they have no complaints about the way they have been treated.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. 2490 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister, has he received any further information from any union or

organisation, or the General Medical Council over the last six months while we have been in recess?

I wonder too if the Minister could give us an insight into recruitment at the Hospital. Are we 2495 going to find it quite difficult? Would people want to come to the Isle of Man for a job?


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The President: Minister. The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his question. I believe that recruitment will become more difficult as we have more and more specialists 2500

across certain areas and we will be competing with the UK, and if there is anything detrimental to the Health… or perceived to be detrimental to the Health Service in the Isle of Man, it will have a negative effect in trying to recruit here.

22. Health Service – Unresolved complaints


How many unresolved complaints about the health services there are? The President: Question 22. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.

2505 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Minister for Health to reply. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, at the present time there are 60 2510

unresolved complaints being dealt with about the Health Service within the National Health Service complaints procedure. This is not to say that matters are not resolvable, but the complaints procedure, in relation to these specific 60 cases, has not yet been concluded, and is yet to be finalised with the complainant.

In addition, there are seven complaints about the Health Service, to our knowledge, which 2515 have been referred to the Independent Review Body (IRB). These are complaints where the complainant does not believe, following the response from the Health Service, that local resolution has been achieved. Again, it must be noted here that these are being considered by the IRB for further investigation within the NHS complaints procedures, but may not be considered appropriate for further investigation once reviewed. 2520

The President: A supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Minister for Health confirm that he is satisfied with those figures, because it seems 2525

an inordinately large amount to me for such a small population. Given the concerns about the complaints procedures on the Island, is he looking at this? Is

this an area that is going to get priority and get sorted, because from what I am hearing it is far from satisfactory?

2530 The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, the figures I have given to the Hon. Member are nothing

unusual. A lot of these investigations into complaints go on for quite a long time; therefore, work in progress continues for some time. 2535

The Hon. Member thinks, for the relative size of our population, this is a large number. I am led to believe that it is comparable to other trusts within the Health Service in the UK. In relation to the system itself, I believe the Francis working group are likely to make recommendations,


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because that is one of the areas they would be looking into; we have not yet had that report from the Francis working group, which might make recommendations on that procedure. 2540

23. Independent Review Body Annual Report – Publication and DoH response

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Health:

If he will publish the most recent Independent Review Body Annual Report; and what the Department’s response is to observations made in it? The President: Question 23. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. 2545 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Minister for Health to reply. 2550 The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, all of the Independent Review

Body (IRB) Annual Report is submitted to the Department. I have absolutely no objection, in principle, to making it more widely available and therefore will arrange for a copy to be placed in the Tynwald Library.

As far as the content of the Report is concerned, however, this current Report contains three 2555 comments which I believe are not accurate. An officer of the Department met with the IRB on 8th July to contest three of their observations.

The objection raised on behalf of the Hospital was because the IRB was proposing to call three senior clinical staff from the orthopaedics department to the same hearing, requiring them to suspend all clinical activity in that speciality for a full day, resulting in a major disruption of 2560 service to patients. This was resolved by negotiation, with the IRB agreeing to schedule specific slots for clinicians to attend, so as to minimise the impact on patients. In the event, calling all three clinicians to the same hearing still resulted in reduced services on that day.

The second difference of opinion… the Department did not accuse the IRB of setting health policy, but possibly that it might inadvertently be attempting to challenge it. On receipt of the 2565 terms of reference of one particular hearing, the terms could have been interpreted as a challenge to our service provision. That concern was also raised with the IRB in advance of the hearing. That was resolved in discussion with the then chair, who confirmed with the convener that the policy was not being challenged.

The third point of contention is the Department did not challenge the IRB's right to examine 2570 clinical issues, but pointed out potential conflicts in relation to the jurisdiction of the General Medical Council and other professional regulatory bodies.

So, before placing the Report in the Tynwald Library, I would like, therefore, to check with the IRB that those comments have been satisfactorily addressed. Once that is complete, I will arrange for the Report to be made available to Members in the Library. 2575

Madam President, the IRB provides a dispassionate and unbiased view of our complaints handling and we place great value on what it tells us. Nonetheless, the question of how complaints about the Health Service are handled is a significant element of the Francis Report into the problems of Mid-Staffs. It is thus being looked at, in some detail, by our own Francis working group, which is due to report to me next month, and I would welcome representation 2580 of how independently addressing patient complaints might be enhanced yet further.


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The President: A supplementary question, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. 2585 How does the Minister believe that the Independent Review Body process could be

improved? I appreciate greatly sharing the observations made by the IRB and also your comments on those observations, and I believe, from my intensive work getting to know the people involved in this process on both sides, that everybody shares the view that the complaints process and the IRB process need to be changed. So, how can that be taken forward 2590 and when will it be taken forward?

Just one point of clarification: I think you said the IRB Report and the comments will be made public in the Members’ library, or was it just to Members?

The President: Minister. 2595 The Minister: Yes, I have got no problem making it available as a document within the

Tynwald Library for the general public and whoever else wants to see it. The Hon. Member asked me what I think should happen to improve that system. I am open

to what I am being advised. I am looking forward to the Francis working group reporting to me 2600 and any other individuals who want to make comments on how that can be improved. Who knows, the external review of the Health Service might also make some recommendations along that line as well.

The President: A supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft. 2605 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I am just wondering if the Minister would be kind enough to ask one of his officers to inform

him, so he can let us know, when it is available in the Library, rather than us keep asking the Library is it there yet? 2610

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, I will make sure that an e-mail goes round to Hon. Members

to let them know when it is in the Library. 2615

24. Average cost data – Reason for not collecting

The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Minister for Health:

Why his Department does not collect average cost data although it is a mandatory requirement for all NHS providers in the UK? The President: Question 24. The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 2620 The President: The Minister for Health to reply.


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The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, since 1990 the National Health Service in England has separated the provision and the commissioning or purchasing of healthcare. This was designed to introduce market forces into the National Health Service, 2625 allowing purchasers to move contracts from one hospital to another.

Plainly, the purchase-provider split did not make sense in the Isle of Man, where there is only one hospital and no possibility of competition between providers. The present key to operating the purchase-provider split is the payment-by-results scheme, whereby hospitals get paid according to their case mix and the volume of work undertaken. There are set tariffs for each 2630 type of case and the actual sum paid is also amended, depending upon a number of factors, such as local costs depending on geography.

As hospitals derive a large part of their income from the PBR scheme, they have invested considerable resources into ensuring their infrastructure supports the scheme and produces data in a manner that maximises their income. This requires a considerable administrative 2635 overhead around coding all activity within the Hospital for each patient.

In the absence of political imperative to implement a full purchasing-provider split, not to mention the impracticality of such a scheme here, the Department has not diverted resources from the clinical service to provide the infrastructure for a scheme it did not have, and indeed would probably not have been heavily criticised for doing so at the time. 2640

Consequently, we have not collected the same underlying data in the same way as England, and as a result we do not have the comparable figures. However, with the benefit of hindsight, it would be advantageous to have such data locally, but provision of similar infrastructure will require additional resources in terms of both headcount and IT upgrades, as well as changes to underlying daily clinical and management routines. 2645

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. Does the Minister for Health agree with me that any organisation – regardless of the sector, 2650

the nature of its business or its structure, governance and management arrangements – requires accurate, timely and appropriate information upon which to make informed decisions and monitor performance?

The President: Minister. 2655 The Minister: Yes, I would agree that in an ideal world, that is what we would like to have.

We have a finite amount of money, and therefore if there is a decision of whether we should have an extra consultant in orthopaedics or putting in a system, at the moment my vote would go to putting in an extra headcount in orthopaedics. 2660

However, I recognise what the Hon. Member is saying is correct. It would be a very useful to have this information, and management are looking at information systems that might help us to improve our knowledge in this area for the future.

The President: A supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. 2665 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I am wondering if the Minister could just clarify how they manage to make any decisions

regarding the financial implications for certain proposals, such as the macular degeneration – whether it is worth bringing somebody over once a month or whether it is financially sounder to 2670 keep sending people across. Leaving the emotive issues of people travelling when they are elderly etc to one side, just focusing on the finance, how can you make any decision regarding finances if you do not know what your underlying costs are for these procedures?


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The President: Minister. 2675 The Minister: In the example the Hon. Member makes – and she makes a good example

there – we do a full business case of what it would cost us. At any one time we do not know across the piece of the Hospital what interventions are costing us, but where we see a possible advantage in actually doing some work on Island compared with off Island, then would drill 2680 down into the cost; but it is a very labour intensive way to do it.

What I am saying to the Hon. Member for Middle is that this information is not at our fingertips, but if we wanted to develop a business case for a specific issue, like the Hon. Member mentions, then we would drill down into the costs – and we have mechanisms to do that, but they are very time consuming and we have not got information systems where we can just press 2685 buttons and get the information.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. 2690 May I thank the Minister for his answer to my first supplementary, where I think we can all

agree that extra money for orthopaedics to help out would go down exceptionally well. With that in mind, where I think the Minister and myself are both in agreement that every

pound is a prisoner to get value for money, can the Minister explain why, on page 62 of the Isle of Man Government Accounts for the year end 31st March 2013, his Chief Executive's office had 2695 over an 18% increase in expenditure? This 18% increase in expenditure, according to the research I have done, allowed for a £66,000 spend on an upgrade for his reception area, yet his Department does not have the money for average cost data collection, which could save millions and be to the benefit of the entire Health Service. Would it not appear that management can find money for what it considers are its priorities? 2700

The President: Minister. The Minister: I do not want to drill down into too much detail, Madam President, but I can

assure the Hon. Member that we have made significant savings in the management of the 2705 Health Service.

He needs to bear in mind that certain things have been brought into the Department of Health and I think, within that timeframe, the Mental Health Service will have come back into the fold, so there are significant costs that have come in. Just reading a balance sheet, I am afraid, does not show all these things up, but I will get the detailed information for the Hon. 2710 Member so that he can understand it better.

HOME AFFAIRS

25. Fire Safety Bill – Date for First Reading

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

When he expects to bring the Fire Safety Bill to the House of Keys for its First Reading? The President: Question 25. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton.


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Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. I beg for leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 2715 The President: The Minister for Home Affairs to reply. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): Thank you, Madam President. A Bill to repeal and replace the Fire Precautions Act 1975 and the Fire Services Act 1984 with 2720

a modern single piece of legislation is being prepared. Once that Bill is ready and subject to the outcome of the consultation exercise, it is my intention to introduce the Bill to the House of Keys for its First Reading in the current legislative session.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. 2725 I am grateful for the Minister’s reply. Can he answer, though, will the Bill include powers to

regulate the maintenance of fire extinguishers linked to an approved standard in the future, which will include powers of enforcement?

The President: Minister. 2730 The Minister: Madam President, the Bill is not yet in a state where it has come to me, so I am

unable to answer that question. The President: A supplementary, Mr Houghton. 2735 Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Madam President. Will he find out and let me know? The President: Minister. 2740 The Minister: Given that it is in a state of flux, I might refer him to conversations with my

Member with delegated responsibility (Laughter and interjections) for the Fire Service, Mr Quirk. Mr Houghton: Madam President, a final question: would he refer to me not through his 2745

Member? I would be very grateful. The President: Minister. The Minister: I will be happy to talk to Mr Houghton on this a bit further. (Laughter) 2750 The President: A supplementary, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask my Minister, who is responsible for me – (Laughter and interjections) 2755 A Member: No-one is responsible for you! Mr Quirk: – if all the current fire extinguishers and the procedures are compliant with British

Standards Code of Practice? 2760 The President: Minister. Madam President: Madam President, I cannot answer that, I am sorry. 2765


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Mr Quirk: But I can. (A Member: Yes.) The President: A supplementary, Mr – Mr Houghton: Final supplementary – 2770 The President: Second final. Mr Houghton: – in order to clarify to the Member, who did not understand the question I put

in the first place, Madam President. This is the enforcement to a British approved standard and 2775 the enforcement of the maintenance thereof, and that is very much required in the industry at this particular time. I would be very grateful if the Minister could just confirm that.

The President: Minister. 2780 The Minister: Madam President, my understanding is that, at the present time, fire

legislation does not include responsibilities to ensure that that happens, and that that responsibility currently lies with the Office of Fair Trading. That is my understanding at the moment.

2785 Mr Quirk: Just for clarification, Madam President, I am the Chairman of the Office of Fair

Trading. (Laughter and interjection by Mr Houghton) The President: We leave it with you, sir. 2790 A Member: Hear, hear. (Interjections)

Welcome to His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor

The President: Hon. Members, on your behalf I am pleased to welcome to the Chamber His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor. We welcome you this afternoon, sir.

26. Illegal drugs – Government’s stance

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

Whether the Government’s tough stance on the cultivation, possession or supply of illegal drugs has recently changed? The President: We continue with Question 2. The Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Speaker. 2795 The Speaker: Madam President, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Minister for Home Affairs to reply. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): Madam President, nothing has changed. 2800

Indeed, I would invite Hon. Members to note the recent case of Hamblett before the Staff of


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Government Division, in which the tough sentencing regime for the tracking in controlled drugs could be enforced by the court. The unequivocal message is that trafficking in Class A drugs in particular will attract very lengthy prison sentences.

Madam President, Mr Speaker has written to me on this subject and in relation to a particular 2805 case on cannabis farming which resulted in a caution, and I was disappointed by the decision not to prosecute in this case. However, prosecution decisions are not a matter for the Department of Home Affairs but for the Police and the Attorney General’s Chambers.

I would finish by reiterating that the Department’s stance on illegal drugs on the Island has not changed. 2810

A Member: Hear, hear. The President: A supplementary question, Mr Speaker. 2815 The Speaker: Madam President, in thanking the Minister for his reply, can I ask him would he

welcome a review of the cautioning criteria applied, or to be applied in future cases of this nature?

The Minister: Madam President, it is my understanding that such a review is already 2820

underway.

INFRASTRUCTURE

27. Governor’s Hill – Road surface dressing programme

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

Why his Department dropped Governor’s Hill off this year’s surface dressing programme despite the poor condition of some of the roads on this estate? The President: Question 27. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 2825 The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply. The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you, very much. I do hope it is a pure coincidence that His Excellency has joined us for this Question. 2830

(Laughter) In the context of reduced budgets and a backlog of highway maintenance issues, made worse

by several very severe winters, my officers have faced difficult choices in regard to prioritising remaining road maintenance expenditure.

While surface dressing is not universally popular, it is the cheapest and most cost-effective 2835 method by which the life of fragile roads can be extended. The process seals the roads and also restores their skid resistance. The effect of sealing is that the water is less able to get into the road structure, such that if we get severe frosts the roads will be protected and will not break up. Once a road starts to break up, the only solution is to reconstruct or resurface the road, and the costs of such work are between 10 and 70 times more than surface dressing. 2840


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In view of these stark facts, in recent years the Department has expanded the surface dressing programme. However, as with all work undertaken, resources are finite and the efforts are prioritised based on achieving the best possible outcome for the Island’s roads using the limited funding available.

In practice, this means prioritising work to the Island's roads on the basis of their importance, 2845 usage and condition. This method of prioritisation naturally means that more major routes, such as the coast road to Ramsey and the Douglas to Peel road, take priority over routes in better structural condition or more minor roads, such as residential roads. For example, if the coast road had not been surface dressed, it was probable that a severe winter would have caused sections of that road to break up. That, in turn, would have had a major impact on the Island. By 2850 contrast, I am advised that the estate roads the Hon. Member refers to in his Question are in a less fragile condition and are less likely to break up. Also, if they were to fail, then the impact would be more localised and less problematic for the wider network.

As such, in order to manage the Department’s expenditure, officers find it necessary to defer work on Governor’s Hill until next year's programme. The Department’s officers do, however, 2855 acknowledge concern over the condition of this road and they will ensure that it is monitored over the winter and that any dangerous defects are attended to.

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Henderson. 2860 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Will the Minister confirm for the Court that, in fact, the issues with the roads in Governor’s

Hill have been ongoing for quite a few years now and have been continually reported, so that, in fact, if he could confirm, it is sat higher up the priorities than he is leading people to understand this afternoon, and that it will not stop the reconstruction of the Peel Road if Governor’s Hill 2865 receives the surface dressing that it requires?

Could he confirm also that the decision to take Governor’s Hill off is just gerrymandering a situation which is set to get worse?

The President: Minister. 2870 The Minister: All I can say is we have limited resources available. Officers assess the priority –

I am not technically qualified to do such – and it is their assessment which has provided the response which I have given today. They have also said that they are happy to monitor the situation over this winter, and if there are problems we will certainly attend to them. 2875

The President: A supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. There are many potholes and damaged roads and pavements in Douglas, beyond His 2880

Excellency’s Hill. Is the Minister aware that I have been enquiring of his officers, without success, this summer

how the condition of carriageways and footways throughout Douglas has been assessed; how much their repair and preventative maintenance on all those roadways and carriageways will cost; and how all the work has been prioritised and scheduled in coming years, given the debate 2885 we had in Tynwald just before the end of last year?

More generally, how much per square metre does it cost to reconstruct, resurface and carry out preventative modes of maintenance on roads and pavements in the Isle of Man; and how does this cost compare to across?

2890 The President: Quite a few questions. Minister.


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The Minister: Yes, thank you. If the Hon. Member has been in contact with my officials, that is fine; I am very happy that

any Hon. Member should do so. I would recommend, though, that if they wish me to be involved 2895 or they wish me to be aware of such situations, to please copy me in and then I would be aware, because I am not actually aware of… although I did hear, during the election campaign which took place in West Douglas, in which the Hon. Member was the successful candidate, that this was an issue around that area, and I am obviously aware, as a Douglas representative myself, as are other Members in all the areas around the Island, that this is a problem. 2900

With reduced resources you do have to prioritise, and that is something I hope most Hon. Members accept, albeit it reluctantly.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 2905 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that the fact is we can all, in this

Hon. Court, give priorities in all our seats? I could say the likes of Snaefell Crescent is a thing of great concern.

Does the Minister not agree that Members in this Hon. Court are going to have to make sure that they allow for the prioritising of what limited resources your Department has? Would the 2910 Minister like to tell us about all the other constituencies where we have got problems as far as bad roads are concerned?

The President: Minister. 2915 The Minister: I acknowledge the point the Hon. Member makes. Perhaps what I neglected to

do, and perhaps I should have done, was to make the point that there are additional resources being made available to the Department to tackle some of the priority areas because there was a slippage in another scheme. I am very grateful to the Treasury Department for that and I neglected to say that earlier, that there is additional support this year for that; but I do not 2920 believe that that will completely eliminate the problems that Hon. Members witness around the Island. They are going to have to be patient, and as the Hon. Member indicates, we do have to prioritise and there are difficult decisions ahead.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Henderson. 2925 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Can the Minister confirm that what I am talking about is the surface dressing priorities

programme within his Department – not anything else; no other reconstruction programmes, which is outwith the scope of this Question – and that this was a priority in that league table, 2930 and that, for some reason, it has been taken off… that he has not been able to fully substantiate this afternoon; and, in fact, the requests for the area, for a thousand-house estate plus rush-hour cut-through, his Department, can he confirm, has measured it more than… numerous times… thousands and thousands of traffic movements in the morning and the evening hardly makes this a parochial issue, but something a little more important, Eaghtyrane? 2935

The President: Minister. The Minister: I am not underestimating the importance of this matter to the Hon. Member or

to those people he represents. (A Member: Hear, hear.) We can all say, in all of the areas we 2940 represent, there are issues such as this.

All I would say is that there has certainly been no gerrymandering in relation to the re-designation of any priorities. The priorities are done on a technical basis by officials and not by


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politicians. They look at the priorities on a scientific basis, and that is the route that has been followed in this case as well. 2945

We have said – and I have now said in this Hon. Court twice – that we will obviously monitor the situation, which is causing great concern to the Hon. Member, over the winter, and if any problems arise we will certainly attend to those.

The President: A final supplementary, Mr Quirk. 2950 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister, would he not then publicise the list? Then, when the list comes out for

the whole of the Island, he will be able to prioritise the list and give some justification to that prioritisation, and then Members could understand. 2955

The President: Minister. The Minister: I am not sure if the Hon. Member is telling me that Members of Tynwald

should make the priorities of the roadwork infrastructure that is required to be done on the 2960 Island. If that is what he is saying, I do not agree with him, because I think it has to be done on a scientific basis, rather than whoever shouts loudest, or if you happen to be a Minister at the moment, or whatever. I think it has to be done on the basis of where the works are required to be done. There is a list, there are lists available, and if we can circulate those to Hon. Members I will happily do that. 2965

28. Flight routes – Impact of changes and actions to mitigate


If he will make a statement on the current situation of flight routes in and out of the Island especially to London and the possible impact on the Island of loss of routes, reduction of flights or other issues; and what is being done to mitigate these effects? The President: Question 28. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 2970 The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply. The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. The current situation with regard to air services to and from the Island, from the position a

couple of months ago, is that we have six daily flights to London on weekdays throughout the 2975 winter period to the end of March 2014. These consist of four Flybe flights to Gatwick, one easyJet flight to Gatwick and one BA CityFlyer flight to London City. On some days, there is also a Flybe flight to Luton.

Following the news that Flybe will be selling their Gatwick runway slots to easyJet with effect from next summer, my Department, working with the Department of Economic Development, 2980 has been in many discussions with both easyJet and BA CityFlyer regarding potential services to and from London next summer.


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We have always seen the solution for next year's London flights being of two halves: one half being BA CityFlyer, giving us two rotations a day to London City, timed early and late for business people; with the second half being easyJet, giving us two rotations a day to Gatwick throughout 2985 most of the summer season, April to the end of October. EasyJet would bring cheaper fares and more capacity, which benefits residents and visitors alike.

As Hon. Members are aware, easyJet have just announced, last week, some additional flights from the beginning of April 2014, with up to five extra flights per week to Gatwick. We are now waiting to hear from BA CityFlyer, who have been working with both Departments regarding a 2990 minimum of two flights a day on weekdays, with an early-morning flight arrival and evening rotation.

In addition, with the easyJet news of no Saturday flight during the summer period – due, they say, to this year’s Saturday flights not breaking even – we have suggested to BA CityFlyer that they may wish to consider additional London City services on a Saturday. I believe that the 2995 company will soon be able to make an announcement on its plans for flights to and from London City Airport, and hope that this news will be as welcome to business passengers as the easyJet announcement is to the wider community.

The other area of work for both Departments over the last few months is looking at finding a new operator for a Scottish route. Currently most passenger traffic to Scotland is routing via 3000 Manchester – and we have heard the stories about the difficulties in that. We do believe we have a potential operator for a double daily route to a Scottish destination, which is likely to also start at the end of March 2014. Discussions are still ongoing at this time, but I would hope that there will be an announcement on this prior to Christmas.

3005 The President: A supplementary, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Shirveishagh for his Answer. Can he confirm for the Court if discussions are going

to be on a more continuous basis – if I can put it like that – in recognition of the fact that we 3010 could find ourselves in this situation, in six months’ time or 12 months’ time, all over again?

Further to that, will his Department and/or other Government Departments continue in the current negotiations, because as the Minister has admitted, we are still disadvantaged now because of all this, including the Saturday service, which may have a major impact on the summer season? 3015

Does he agree that airlines, really… we now need to be looking at the situation more closely and more in depth perhaps… that we should be looking at responsibilities as well as benefits in this equation?

The President: Minister. 3020 The Minister: What I would say is that the situation of travel to and from an island is

obviously going to always be a key and important issue for people who live here or for people who wish to conduct their business from here, or for people who wish to come and spend some time with us. That is the seriousness that is adopted within my Department and within the 3025 Department of Economic Development – and indeed at Council of Ministers level it is something which is considered of the utmost importance. That is why so much time has of late been spent in terms of trying to find the right solution, given the challenging times that air carriers are having in some instances as well.

In response to the Hon. Member, yes, we will obviously continue to monitor and to discuss 3030 with the operators of flights to and from the Isle of Man, and we will always try and get whatever is best for the Isle of Man; that is what we are in position to try and achieve.

I do believe, when you compare with some of the other destinations which had easyJet flights up until relatively recently, if you were to look at the services you would see that we have


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actually done much better than at least three other destinations which have far larger 3035 populations than ours.

I think the discussions that we have had with BA CityFlyer have been… As the Hon. Member, my colleague, the Minister for Economic Development said in response to his Question this morning, they have been going on over an extended period, and obviously we have to be aware that their recommendations to their board are something which we have to wait for. We hope 3040 within two to three weeks we will be in a position to make announcements about that.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Downie. Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. 3045 Given that Manchester Airport now is the only airport which serves the Isle of Man which

operates early and late rotations seven days a week and provides access to the international hub at Heathrow Airport, will the Minister give an undertaking that he will have some dialogue with the operators of Manchester Airport to make sure that a regime of landing charges which we have seen at Gatwick is not applied in the north-west; and, if it is possible, to try and do 3050 something to hedge this off?

The President: Minister. The Minister: Yes, I understand the point the Member is making completely. The situation at 3055

Gatwick was that the operation formerly carried out by Flybe – indeed, the operation which is continuing to be carried out until March next year – is one which did not suit Gatwick’s model; they want larger airplanes. Manchester has proved to be a successful hub with onward connections and I would obviously want to do whatever I can to encourage and to work with them in terms of connections to and from the Isle of Man. So yes, I acknowledge the point the 3060 Hon. Member has made and we will do whatever we can to continue that dialogue.

29. Douglas Town Centre Parking Study and Parking Policy Development Options – Publication of final draft

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask Minister for Infrastructure:

When he will publish the final draft of the Douglas Town Centre Parking Study and Parking Policy Development Options document dated February 2013? The President: Question 29. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 3065 The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply. The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. The version of the report referred to was a draft-only version for consultation with interested 3070

parties and stakeholders. The Department has recently completed this consultation and the final version of the report

is in the process of being concluded. The Department intends to make the final version of the Douglas Town Centre Parking Study and Parking Policy Development Options Report available


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online later this year, along with the other similar parking studies completed for Ramsey, Peel 3075 and Castletown.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. 3080 Can I ask the Minister, quite simply, has your Department received the business case from

Douglas Corporation regarding Cambrian Place; and does he think it is, at the present time, value for money?

The President: Minister. 3085 The Minister: I have been in correspondence with the Leader of Douglas Corporation over

some considerable time in relation to proposals for Cambrian Place and those discussions continue.

3090 The President: A supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Thank you very much, Minister, for confirming that eventually this report, containing options,

and findings as well, and recommendations, will eventually be made public so that the general 3095 public and other interested parties can make a valuable contribution to this very important topic of effective parking management, which can contribute valuably in Douglas and in the other towns, apparently.

Which of the recommendations in particular, Minister, do you not want to publish at the moment? Madam President, if I could ask the Minister that. Is it charging for on-street parking; 3100 is it about variable message signing for car park availability; is it about using planning conditions to influence patterns of usage; is it about encouraging alternatives to the private car; or is it about recommending that a new car park is constructed sometime quite soon in the next five years?

I ask because we owe it to people like Douglas Council, who are thinking of borrowing 3105 £12 million of ratepayers’ funds to actually build a car park, to know what the Government is thinking about planning and parking management in Douglas town.

The President: Minister. 3110 The Minister: The Hon. Member, along with a number of other stakeholders, was previously

a Member of Douglas Borough Council, and as such I expect he got to see the draft report there. What I would say is that some of the things he has mentioned I think are good ideas, and

some of the things he has mentioned I do not think are good ideas; and so what we are going to get to is the situation where the final draft report is published online and then we will seek the 3115 views of everyone else.

I agree with him completely that it is a most important subject and affects everybody and the business activity and everything else that is going on, not only in Douglas but also around the Island, so it is a very important matter to be properly considered. 3120


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SOCIAL CARE

30. Local authority tenants – Rent increases

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

Whether he intends to increase rents for local authority tenants with effect from April 2014; and, if so, what the proposed increase will be? The President: Question 30. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 3125 The President: The Minister for Social Care to reply. The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. The standard process for advising Hon. Members of adjustments to public sector housing

rents takes place after I have consulted with the housing authorities and after I have presented 3130 the proposals to the Council of Ministers, and this will apply again, as normal, this year.

Nonetheless, I was concerned recently to hear some misleading and inaccurate comments about rents and other housing matters expressed by an individual on the radio, which quite understandably may have caused some real concern in certain quarters. So I very much welcome the opportunity provided by this Question to address at least one of those matters – rent 3135 levels – now, as far as I possibly can. As I have explained, I cannot give a definitive answer at this moment, but I am happy to outline a clear direction of travel, and trust that Hon. Members will find this helpful.

It was self-evident at the start of this administration that, as a consequence of a series of previously low annual rent increases, when combined with the welcome and very necessary 3140 determination to reinvest in public sector housing, we had arrived at an increasingly unsustainable outcome. As a consequence, on taking office, rents were increased that first year by 10%, but it was equally clear that, in setting out to achieve an acceptable level of sustainability, there would be a requirement to introduce a system of means testing, which amongst other things would help to recognise the circumstances of those tenants who are on 3145 low incomes but outside the benefits system. I then indicated that the target date for means testing introduction would be April 2015.

In the meantime, the housing amenity pointing system, which was basically sound, also required updating to both recognise recent advances in provision and to deal with a number of anomalies. This we did in our second year of office to allow the changes to bed in well in 3150 advance of the introduction of means testing in order to avoid any misunderstandings and confusion, which would have been the case had both been brought in at the same time.

The cumulative effect of both the first year increase and the adjustment to the pointing system was to increase rents on average – and it is an average – by around 23% over the period. This has had the effect of raising rents from an unacceptably low starting point, but caution is 3155 now required in the remaining period prior to the introduction of means testing if we are to avoid an unacceptable impact on those tenants described above as being on low incomes but outside the benefits system. I therefore intend to propose a much more limited rental increase this year of one on or below 5%.

Thank you, Madam President. 3160 The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran.


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Mr Karran: Can the Shirveishagh inform this Hon. Court how, with this 5%, the new pointing system will have effect; or is this just a matter of a system of smoke and mirrors, as far as the real increase is concerned, as far as there are proposals for a different way of a points system as 3165 far as local authority housing is concerned?

What assurances can we have that that pointing system will actually be used – as often with Government they will say one thing but the reality will be it will be totally different for an awful lot of people?

Can the Shirveishagh, just for the benefit of this Hon. Court, inform the Hon. Court… When 3170 we talk about deficit as far as housing is concerned, could he just make sure that we can have an up-to-date breakdown of the deficit as far as local authority housing, sheltered accommodation housing per unit, and first-time buyers’ housing per unit?

The President: That does not relate directly to the Question. The Minister may or may not 3175

have that information. The Minister: I may or may not understand the question, Madam President. Mr Karran: You are supposed to have a handle on what you are supposed to be doing. 3180 The Minister: I will be happy to bring an absolute torrent of information to the Court in

November when we look at the Housing Review Policy, and I am sure that the Hon. Member for Onchan will wish to engage with me fully in that matter.

I am at a loss to understand his rather uncomfortable remarks about the pointing system, 3185 which we introduced intentionally in isolation to everything else so that it could be understood, and in the majority of cases that has now been introduced right across the local authorities.

Douglas asked if they could take two years to do it because they have a significant number of properties, and so that will, to some degree, impact this year; but it might, in some cases – and I do not know yet because it is a matter for the Corporation, the Douglas Council – result in a 3190 reduction of rent, as was the case with some of the houses that we currently manage, where some went down, some went up and some went up significantly because it was right that they should do so. But I am content, Madam President, that the adjustment to the basically sound pointing system was right and proper.

3195 The President: A supplementary, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister, with reference to the consultation exercise which has taken place with

the local authorities, can he give us some timeline on that; and how will those views be taken 3200 into account before they are passed on, say, to the Council of Ministers, who I presume – the Minister can deny it or approve it – will actually endorse the percentage figure, or is the gift within yourself?

Also, can I maybe, because you touched on it… regarding a local authority, or an individual, who wrote a letter to your and you have exchanged letters with him as an individual. He now 3205 has support of the full board of Onchan District Commissioners, and I just wonder whether the Minister has now changed his view?

The President: Minister. 3210 The Minister: The questions, Madam President, get curiouser and curiouser and go around in

circles. I would be grateful if Hon. Members would present me with clear, concise questions that I would have great pleasure in answering if I could understand them, which would be marvellous.


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In terms of the bits that I have picked out and sort of understand, on the consultation 3215 process, I have indicated to the Hon. Court today that there are reasons why the rent increase this year will be limited. It has not been finalised; I will be talking to the local authorities and I will be discussing it with the Council of Ministers.

As regards the rather vague comment about Onchan, I am not going to waste the Hon. Court’s time here about what I think was a collection of inaccurate statements made by the 3220 gentleman concerned – the chairman – on the radio. If he refers to my reply, which is, I think, on Manx Radio today, he will get some clear indication of my feelings with regard to the way he is conducting himself.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Hall. 3225 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. I will try to make this clear and concise for the

Minister. The Minister: Why, thank you, sir. 3230 Mr Hall: What is the Minister’s view, in terms of moving forward, regarding the rent setting;

and, within that framework, does he have a very clear structure of what the increases will be year on year? For example, in the United Kingdom, where this has actually been an issue, it was put from the Government that it would be the RPI plus half of 1% plus £2; that is how it would 3235 be increased. I think in Wales they were going along the lines of the RPI plus 1% as what it would be increased by. I would just be curious, moving forwards, how the Minister is going to do the year-on-year increases, because that is something that would be very specific; it is easily understood.

In terms of where the rents are actually moving to, the point, does he have a particular cap of 3240 the percentage that the tenancies… as regards the percentage that it will be of the market rent? My understanding is that in the United Kingdom the convergence is that it will be no higher than 80% of the actual market rent. I think that is an important thing as well, that we have some sort of a very clear idea about where that maximum point will be, and I would just appreciate it if the Minister can please provide some more specific and precise information with regard to that. 3245

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, may I thank the Hon. Member for Onchan for a very clear

and concise question, which I will do my best to answer. 3250 There are a number of issues which, in fact, create a matrix. One of them is the structure of

the way means testing is going to work, and I have said repeatedly that it is terribly important to protect that group of people on low incomes above benefits. That is part of the reason means testing is going to come in. Means testing will also recognise the fact that there is a limited – and it is limited – number of people on significant and high incomes, who are capable and able in the 3255 future to pay a near market rent. The main body of tenants then will pay a standard rent appropriate to the pointing for their particular house.

To answer the second part of his question, we have yet to arrive at a figure which gives us a sensible reaction to maintaining it and stabilising the deficiency on the one hand, and being fair, in terms of the rent, on the other. Part of that process, I am sure will be, as he suggests, arriving 3260 at a subsidised rent which represents a proportion of the market rent on the Island.

I look forward to coming back with more clarity as this thinking develops. Thank you, Madam President.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran. 3265


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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh, instead of making light of some of these issues that some of us raise… but the issue that… He says in this Hon. Court that some of the rents have gone down and some of the rents have gone up, as far as the new points system. The point is can he clarify what percentages have gone down and what percentages have gone up with this 3270 new points system, as far as what is being proposed now?

Would he not also agree that some of us get tired of listening to the attack on local authority housing tenants – that somehow they are just subsidised? Most people have some sort of subsidy from different walks of life – from our students going to university to people being sick. That is what society is about. 3275

Would he not agree that by trying to dodge the issue about the deficiency as far as housing is concerned, by the fact that sheltered accommodation is far more subsidised per unit of housing than any local authority is concerned…? So can we have some real clarity, instead of the usual banter that we get from Ministers?

3280 The Minister: Madam President, I do hope that the Member for Onchan can retain his

excitement just a little bit longer until we get to the issue of the Housing Policy Review, which deals with all these things in great detail, and I am sure he will welcome the opportunity to engage with me on that process.

Who is knocking public sector tenants here when we talk about subsidy? (Interjection by 3285 Mr Karran) Subsidy is an important part of the process of public sector housing; otherwise there would not be. It in no way denigrates anybody, and I would ask that the Hon. Member for Onchan be more careful with his language.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Houghton. 3290 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. Reverting back to the original Question, which asks whether he intends to increase rents for

local authority tenants with effect from April 2014… which he has alluded to a compound rate of 5%, (Mr Quirk: No higher.) can he just clarify that that is the understanding of this Court? 3295

The President: Minister. The Minister: Madam President, I refer to my previous question. I have answered the

question. 3300

31. Long-term unemployment – Changes to benefits

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

Whether he will make changes to the way in which benefits are granted to the long-term unemployed in the same way as the United Kingdom are proposing, in particular by imposing a requirement to work as part of the eligibility criteria for long-term unemployment benefits? The President: We move on, Hon. Members. Question 31. The Hon. Member for Douglas

North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 3305


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The President: The Minister for Social Care to reply. The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. We are not pursuing the same route as the UK, as the Department of Economic Development 3310

and my Department are working closely together, devising solutions more suited to the needs of our own long-term unemployed. We are working together to expand initiatives to help reduce long-term unemployment. Work is focused on targeting resources, joint working, employment opportunities and making work pay.

Work by the Department of Social Care includes reviewing the levels of Jobseeker’s 3315 Allowance to see if they are so high, relative to the minimum wage, that in some cases they creative a disincentive for people to leave benefits or go into work; better publicising the availability of Employed Person’s Allowance, an income-related benefit available to families and disabled workers who work but who have a low income; investigating if the rules for Employed Person’s Allowance could be changed to provide help to certain groups currently out of scope, 3320 such as single people with no dependants, which would make them better off in work than on out-of-work benefits; developing a benefits calculator, showing how much better off in work a person can be compared with staying on benefits; introducing tougher sanctions for jobseekers who fail to comply with benefit requirements.

Both Departments see social enterprises as being key to providing some jobseekers with 3325 opportunities to get the work experience they need to make them more attractive to prospective employers, especially those who have been out of work for long periods, and I have written to a number of organisations – including local authorities, Government Departments and third sector providers – encouraging the development of such engagement. The people taking part in such programmes will, I believe, gain a great deal from such an experience and be of 3330 significant benefit to them.

My Department is working to support a number of other Department of Economic Development projects aimed at helping the unemployed get into work.

Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane. 3335 The President: A supplementary. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Minister for that positive Answer – excellent. 3340 I am just wondering what his Department’s thinking is on the… If there are any recidivists in

the long-term unemployed who are ‘bucking the system’, has he got any plans to deal with that situation?

The President: Minister. 3345 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I think if we were comparing ourselves to the UK, the UK is tending to engage with the long-

term unemployed a lot later than us. I think they are talking about two or three years. Both ourselves and DED feel very strongly that we need to engage with people as early as we possibly 3350 can, and so we are targeting the five-months point to be the focus in on that individual. That is the important thing – this issue about individuals. One of the great things Government has got to get away from is this over-categorisation of big groups. In the end, everybody is an individual and has specific needs.

Introducing opportunities to get the long-term – i.e. over five-months – unemployed into 3355 work, it gives them (a) opportunity to find their way back and to gain the confidence of employers again, but (b) it will increasingly expose the recidivists the Hon. Member for North Douglas alludes to.


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I recognise and agree absolutely with his sentiment, but I think it needs to be balanced off with a very important need to get clear identification of that individual, so that we do not end up 3360 treating somebody who is genuinely out of work, on long-term… who really is desperate for help, not to get it. We do not want to treat them as… I hope that the Hon. Member is satisfied with that answer.

32. Social Services Act 2011 – Introduction and implications of any delay

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

When his Department will bring each section of the Social Services Act 2011 into operation; and what the (a) cause; and (b) implications are of any delay? The President: Question 32. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. 3365 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Minister for Social Care to reply. 3370 The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. My Department is currently considering all provisions under the Social Services Act and

anticipates that the Act will be enacted in early 2015. As Hon. Members will be aware, this Act was brought forward by the then Department of

Health and Social Security and received Royal Assent in 2011. At the same time of drafting, the 3375 anticipation was that the legislation would provide a statutory framework for the provision of social care services to reflect changes to policy and practice since the last overarching piece of legislation, which is the National Assistance Act 1951.

However, since that time, we have had to acknowledge the challenges we face across Government. This has resulted in further changes to policy and practice. For example, we have 3380 embarked upon extensive policy work in relation to rebalancing Adult Services. This policy work has included developing and consulting on key strands, including fair access to care services and charging. The development of fair access to care services and charging are an essential part of the implementation process for the Act. A similar process has now commenced with Children and Families. 3385

These changes in policy and practice have meant that a considerable amount of work is required to implement the Act. My Department is working on a phased introduction timetable for the Act, which will see implementation in the period commencing late 2014, as I have said, into 2015.

The implementation of the Act will enshrine in law certain rights that the people of the Isle of 3390 Man will then know they are entitled to. In addition, it sets out certain duties which the Department will be required to carry out. However, the delays in the introduction of the Act will not have any adverse implications because, as currently, the Department is always attempting and trying hard to follow best practice.

Thank you, Madam President. 3395 The President: A supplementary, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President.


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Does the Minister feel that one implication is that when he is rebalancing Adult Services, and 3400 apparently perhaps also Children’s Services, through increasing charges for some more than others and so on, there is a risk that by using the National Assistance (Isle of Man) Act 1951 – which has got some outdated words like ‘crippled’ and ‘deaf and dumb’ and so on – rather than the modern sections in the new Act that has already been in place for two or three years now, we might lose something? For instance, when I read the 1951 Act, Madam President – I would 3405 like to ask the Minister – it seems to me that not always… it is the case that Tynwald has to be involved in decisions.

The second query I have is about the Carers’ Charter. This is very valuable, Madam President. I would like to ask the Minister whether it would be as necessary to have the Carers’ Charter if we had statutory assessments of need, capability and financial means of potential service users 3410 and carers, as is intended in the Social Services Act that is already on our Statute Book.

The President: Minister. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 3415 I am very pleased to say that I agree with almost everything the questioner has said. The process we are in at the moment is looking at charging in a pretty well de minimis

situation; it is also dealing with simple anomalies. But I absolutely agree with him that it is important that this is captured in modern legislation as soon as absolutely possible.

As far as the Carers’ Charter is concerned, yes, I agree with him. It needs legal footing, but 3420 nonetheless the Carers’ Charter is an important document in its own right. It is easy to use, recognise, and more people are now signing up to it.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: A further supplementary, Mr Thomas. 3425 Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. Thank you to the Minister for that first answer. We learned this morning from the Health Minister that the independent review body process

for Health is going to be reviewed and new things will be brought forward. Another issue with 3430 the Social Services Act, which makes it better than previous legislation, is that it allows and it establishes an independent review body in Social Services. I wonder whether the Minister would consider actually joining that review so we could have a good independent review body for a ‘Department of Health and Wellbeing’, which is also used by Social Care, or whatever combination comes out in coming months? 3435

The President: Minister. The Minister: I would have to agree with the hon. questioner again. 3440 A Member: You are a Minister, Minister. The Minister: We are moving into a new era now of openness, transparency, clarity; and in

terms of the public we have got to be able to show, in a very open and concise manner, that when, for example, something goes to a third-stage review, the process the individual is going 3445 through, in terms of their complaint, is independent and seen to be independent. As far as I am personally concerned – and I am speaking now personally – the jury is out at the moment as to just how we get this right. So I am always happy to talk to the Hon. Member further on this subject, Madam President. 3450


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OFFICE OF FAIR TRADING

33. Louis Group – Complaints to the Financial Services Ombudsman Scheme

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading:

How many complaints have been referred to the Financial Services Ombudsman Scheme in relation to the Louis Group; how many of those complaints have been upheld and compensation awarded; and whether the Financial Services Ombudsman Scheme or Office of Fair Trading will make a report to the Financial Supervision Commission? The President: Question 33. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 3455 The President: The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading to reply. The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading (Mr Quirk): Thank you, Madam President. The Financial Services Ombudsman Scheme received 31 complaints which relate to the sale

of the Louis Group products. Of these, 11 complaints relate to direct selling by the Louis Group 3460 companies and 20 relate to the mis-selling of the Louis Group products by an Isle of Man based independent financial adviser.

In terms of the direct sales, the outcomes were: no cases were resolved through mediation; one case was referred to adjudication and was determined in favour of the customer, resulting in the award of over £20,000; nine cases could not be progressed because of the High Court 3465 maintenance order, and in accordance with the provision of the legislation, the Ombudsman Scheme ceases to… [Inaudible]; a further case could not be considered as the client invested directly into the product without taking advice.

In the terms of the complaints about mis-selling of the Louis Group products by local independent advisers, I can refer the outcome... no cases were resolved through mediation. Six 3470 cases referred to adjudication were all determined wholly or partly in favour of the customer, resulting in awards of over £393,000. Eight cases are currently under investigation. Six cases were rejected by the Ombudsman’s team. Two of these were outside the strict time limits set by the legislation. In four cases, the complainants were not the private individuals and the Financial Services Ombudsman Scheme only applies to individuals. 3475

Copies of the relevant adjudication decisions under the Ombudsman Scheme are automatically supplied through the gateway provided under the legislation to the Financial Supervision Commission or the independent and pensions adviser, whichever is the relevant regulator. In relation to all Louis Group issues, this is the FSC. In addition, the Ombudsman Scheme staff meet regularly with the regulator. 3480

Thank you, Madam President.

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 3485 I thank the Caairliagh for his Answer. Following up on my previous question since this scandal unfolded, could he report to the

Court, or will he give an undertaking to report to the Court following further information and results from the Ombudsman Scheme itself, that we do not want to hear about just talking to


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the FSC? Would he agree that he will talk to the Ombudsman, that the information that is found 3490 from these cases is reported to the FSC, so that, with any luck, regulation will be tightened for the future at the very least?

The President: Chairman. 3495 The Chairman: Thank you, Madam President. I can give the assurance to the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Henderson, that all the

information that goes from the regulator and the Ombudsman Scheme to the FSC is discussed. It is then put into a report and anonymised as the report comes out.

All I can say to Members here today as well, is just be mindful too that the courts still have 3500 control of this particular issue. It is before the courts and I am mindful not to speak on any other matters.

3505

34. Payday lenders – Proposed regulations

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading:

What plans he has to examine proposed regulations for payday lenders in the UK, with a view to introducing similar measures in the Isle of Man? The President: Question 34, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 3510 The President: The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading to reply. The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading (Mr Quirk): Thank you, Madam President. The Hon. Member will be aware from answers given by the Hon. Chief Minister at the April

sitting of this Hon. Court that the Office of Fair Trading has been looking into the issue of payday 3515 lending and its effect on the Manx consumer.

I am pleased to be able to advise that the report ensuing from this investigation is nearly completed and will be published within the next month. It will be amongst other things in which it is considered whether there is any need to tighten up existing rules in relation to the three companies – registered in pursuance to the Moneylenders Act 1991 – who currently offer 3520 consumer payday-style lending in the Island.

The majority of Manx consumers who have access to payday loans do so in the United Kingdom market… although online or call-centre channels are obviously the source of money regulation currently being proposed in the UK, which will benefit the consumer.

Madam President, the report will look into the issues in far more detail than I can respond to 3525 in Questions here today, and will naturally be supplied to all Hon. Members. I have to note that the report will set out the facts in a coherent way and will be read in a coherent manner as well when the documents are received by Members.

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Henderson. 3530 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.


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I thank the Caairliagh for his Answer and I am grateful to note that we are going to be the recipients of this report very shortly, which – if he can confirm – will have some guidance on the matter. 3535

In the meantime, Eaghtyrane, can he confirm, or otherwise, that his Office is open for advice to the members of the public who may be wishing to access payday loan services, for whatever reason, and that they will be able to have advice from his officers as the best way to progress?

The President: Chairman. 3540 The Chairman: Thank you, Madam President. Just a note of caution there: it is not the duty of the Office of Fair Trading, really, to suggest

where people go. I would suggest that people take that independent advice. There are banks that are there too and small people who do lend funds. The Office of Fair Trading and other 3545 organisations do have guidelines for people to take up, but that is with themselves.

Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane, perhaps I could ask if – The President: A supplementary, Mr Downie. 3550 Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading not agree with me that, with banks refusing

loans to provide the needs for the small domestic person, there needs to be a regulated facility to allow for some form of domestic lending? 3555

Would he further not agree with me that what we should be doing is coming up with a scheme where we can regulate people? There are instances of this in the UK and other places where schemes have operated successfully?

Would he not agree at the present time all we are doing is driving people into the hands of moneylenders and they are being charged extortionate rates; and the sooner we get on and 3560 provide a scheme where people can be properly licensed and regulated, then we will probably solve this problem?

The President: Chairman. 3565 The Chairman: Madam President, it has not been drawn to my attention and we have just

completed an exercise of consultation with Members of this Hon. Court and other Members supplying us with information.

The three institutions that are based on the Isle of Man are regulated, and we do have regulation on that. 3570

It will be interesting to see when the board makes that final decision, because it will be a board’s decision when the report comes out, and it will be interesting to see the findings, which have not been placed before the board yet.

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Karran. 3575 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Caairliagh inform this Court… Some of us have had meetings

with the Office of Fair Trading. We have made suggestions, such as if the payday loans in the United Kingdom are not regulated on the Island maybe we should be changing the law so that the debts are not enforceable in the Isle of Man, like we used to have as far as gambling debt is 3580 concerned.

Does he not feel that here we are, we have gone through the summer… This is a major social cancer, where… It is not often that I would agree with the Hon. Member for Council, Mr Downie, on anything. This issue needs to be addressed as a priority and we should be giving it more


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priority, even allowing that the Bishop has managed to break the impasse to allow a credit union 3585 to be formed on this Island, for which some of us have been trying to get the legislation changed for the last 10 years.

The President: Chairman. 3590 The Chairman: Thank you, Madam President. I am not quite sure where… Mr Karran did come and see the Department, and hopefully he

would have supplied evidence to the consultation exercise, like any other member would have, of the general public or this Hon. Court.

I am not in a view at the minute to actually debate it any further. It would be better if the 3595 consultation exercise is now concluded, the report is put together and laid before Members. Then would be the time, if Members require it… I would be happy to facilitate maybe a briefing to Members at the time when the report comes out.

The President: A further supplementary, Mr Karran. 3600 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, is the Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading saying it is a waste of

time for Hon. Members to actually take the time to go and meet with the Office of Fair Trading because they are going to take no notice of what you say, because they have got a consultation out? 3605

Does he not agree that one of the simple things that we could do, in order to stop the abuse of payday loans from the adjacent isle taking advantage of the vulnerable within our society, is to change the law so that debts from payday loans from the United Kingdom and other jurisdictions, that are not regulated on the Isle of Man, are not enforceable by law as far as the debt is concerned? 3610

The President: The Chairman to reply. The Chairman: Once again, Madam President, I have to indicate to the Member, my

colleague from Onchan, that if he has provided the evidence and if he has provided all of the 3615 documentation that he has mentioned in this particular Court, that will flag up.

As far as I am aware at the minute, those industries that are on the Island are operating within the law, and that is all I can say to Members.

When the report comes out I will facilitate it, but it does not stop any Member, if they have any concerns, from knocking at the door at any time with evidence. 3620

The President: A final supplementary, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Chairman not agree the fact is it is not about the

regulation of the ones on the Island; it is the fact of the ones off the Island? The fact that 3625 individuals get drunk at 10 o'clock at night, agree to a payday loan – and this is totally socially irresponsible, but does he not agree that one way that his Department could be effective is by looking at where these loans are being put into the Isle of Man, that if they are not Manx-based loans the debt will not be enforceable by law, like we used to do with gambling debts?

3630 The President: Chairman. The Chairman: Once again, Madam President, it is a decision not by me; it is a decision by the

board. The board of the OFT has to evaluate all these and will be taking on board the comments, I presume, that were sent in by Mr Karran, and they will be evaluated. 3635


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The President: Hon. Members, that concludes the consideration of Oral Questions on our paper.

Announcement of Royal Assent

The President: I can announce that Royal Assent has been given to the Sunbeds Act 2013 and to the Flood Risk Management Act 2013. 3640

Questions for Written Answer

CHIEF MINISTER

35. Government’s legislative programme – Changes in published list; reasons

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Chief Minister:

What the Government’s legislative programme is for the coming three years; how this varies from the priority list published in October 2012; and what the reasons are for each variance between the October 2012 and the October 2013 priority lists? Answer: The Council of Ministers has recently considered a draft legislative programme; 3645

however it has requested further work is undertaken by the Chief Secretary in respect of co-ordination and prioritisation of elements of the programme in order to achieve more efficient use of valuable drafting resources.

You may also recall that I have given an undertaking to make more information available about the legislative programme on the Council of Ministers’ webpages. I shall therefore 3650 circulate the programme to all Members of Tynwald and it will be made available as soon as possible thereafter. Subsequent routine updates and any changes of substance or name will also be made available following Council’s regular reviews and ongoing management of the programme.

36. Walney Extension Offshore Wind Farm Development – Planning inquiry; representations made by IoM Government

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister:

What representations were made by the Isle of Man Government to the UK Planning Inspectorate in respect of the Walney Extension Offshore Windfarm Development, prior to the deadline of 20th September 2013; and if he will publish the Government’s evidence to the Planning Inquiry?


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Answer: On behalf of the Isle of Man Government, the Department of Infrastructure 3655 submitted an online Expression of Interest in connection with the application for a Development Consent Order for the proposed Walney Extension Offshore Wind Farm Development, which has been submitted to the UK Planning Inspectorate on 19th September 2013. This representation was prepared with input from officers in the Departments of Infrastructure, Economic Development and Environment, Food and Agriculture. 3660

The representation stated: ‘The Isle of Man is supportive of the generation of renewable energy. There are a number of cumulative impacts from this development which we ask to be taken into consideration. There must be measures put into place by DONG Energy which take into account the need to protect economic growth, transport networks, and the natural environment of the Isle of Man. The Isle of Man is an offshore island that ultimately depends upon its transport linkages. This development would have impacts which clearly need to be addressed. 1. Safety implications of shipping due to interference with navigation systems. 2. Impacts upon extended journey times and diversion of shipping routes in bad weather. 3. Cumulative impacts of offshore wind farm developments regarding safety and economy. 4. Impacts of the turbines on aircraft radar on aircraft safety and movements. 5. Impacts on the natural environment within the Isle of Man territorial waters, including basking sharks, herring spawning areas and marine protected areas. In considering the impacts on air and sea transport to and from the Isle of Man, we would ask the planning inspectorate to consider whether it would be beneficial to observe the actual operation of both modes of travel to and from the island.’ This representation can be viewed at the UK Planning Inspectorate’s website at

http://infrastructure.planningportal.gov.uk/projects/north-west/walney-extension-offshore-wind-farm/?ipcsection=relreps&relrep=40. This representation has been acknowledged by the UK Planning Inspectorate. In due course the UK Planning Inspectorate have indicated that they 3665 will be informing us how we can participate in the next stage of the decision making process.

This was then supplemented with a more detailed representation which was submitted on 2nd October 2013 to the UK Planning Inspectorate. A copy of this letter is available on the Marine Spatial Planning pages of the Government’s website at http://www.gov.im/categories/planning-and-building-control/marine-spatial-3670 planning/proposed-developments-in-uk-waters-which-may-impact-on-isle-of-man/.

37. Council of Ministers – Collective responsibility

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Chief Minister:

If he will make a statement on the number of ministerial memberships of the Council of Ministers, collective responsibility and the extent to which the general executive management and administration of the Island Government is the collective responsibility of all Ministers under the auspices of the Council of Ministers? Answer: The Council of Ministers operates on the principle of collective responsibility, as

outlined in the Government Code. The Hon. Member has asked for: ‘… a statement on the number of ministerial members of the Council of Ministers collective responsibility…’

http://infrastructure.planningportal.gov.uk/projects/north-west/walney-extension-offshore-wind-farm/?ipcsection=relreps&relrep=40

http://infrastructure.planningportal.gov.uk/projects/north-west/walney-extension-offshore-wind-farm/?ipcsection=relreps&relrep=40

http://www.gov.im/categories/planning-and-building-control/marine-spatial-planning/proposed-developments-in-uk-waters-which-may-impact-on-isle-of-man/

http://www.gov.im/categories/planning-and-building-control/marine-spatial-planning/proposed-developments-in-uk-waters-which-may-impact-on-isle-of-man/


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As the Hon. Member will be aware, the nine Departmental Ministers plus the Chief Minister 3675 form the Council of Ministers. As the Government Code advises, collective responsibility implies that once Council’s policy on any particular matter is decided, each Minister is expected to support it and share responsibility for it. I must stress that the Council of Ministers is one legal personality and where the majority of Members agree on a matter, Council has made a decision as one body. Council is quorate if six members or more are present. 3680

The second part of the Question refers to: ‘… the extent to which the general executive management and administration of the IOM Government is the collective responsibility of all Ministers under the auspices of the Council of Ministers.’ It is the individual Departments and the Council of Ministers which possess legal personality

and therefore statutory responsibility for certain matters; ‘IOM Government’ does not. The Council of Ministers Act 1990 is relatively silent on the statutory functions of Council save for sections 6(5) and 8(1), which provide respectively: 3685

‘6. (5) The Council of Ministers shall consider any papers submitted to it by the Governor.’ ‘8. (1) Where by any statutory provision or resolution it is provided that a member of any body (other than a committee of Tynwald) shall be elected by Tynwald, the provision or resolution shall have effect as if it provided that the member shall be appointed by the Council of Ministers subject to the approval of Tynwald.’ However, again as advised in the Government Code, Council of Ministers executes a number

of different non-statutory functions including determining policy and priorities and resolving difficulties and providing information and advice to the Governor. Ministers are free to express their views in Council when such matters are discussed; however, as advised above, once 3690 Council have reached a decision on a matter all Ministers are bound by the principles of collective responsibility.

The Government Code also details the occasions when Ministers may be excluded from the principles of collective responsibility. These include:

(1) matters of conscience. 3695 (2) a declared position. (3) constituency matters. (4) inconsequential matters. (5) unresolved issues.

TREASURY

38. Mortgage arrears – Provision of information

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What statutory or other arrangements are in place to provide information on mortgage arrears to optimise Government strategy; whether there are any fees or reimbursement costs; and to what extent can information be shared with other parties? Answer: The Treasury does not have any arrangements in place, statutory or otherwise to 3700

collect or collate data on mortgage arrears or related fees and re-imbursement costs.


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39. Income Tax Division – Checking and collection of contributions

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Whether the initiative being carried out by Income Tax Division, announced in the 2012 Budget, to ensure that the correct amount of tax and National Insurance contributions are being collected from external agencies and contractors providing labour or services to Government Departments is still being pursued; and what additional revenue has been raised through this exercise? Answer: Further to my response to Question 7 asked in Tynwald in July 2012, the Income Tax

Division has continued to pursue the initiative in conjunction with all Government Departments to examine the conditions under which services are provided by external agencies and 3705 contractors and this exercise will be complete by the end of 2013.

The initiative has identified a number of areas of concern which indicated that the correct amount of tax and National Insurance contributions due to the Isle of Man were not being collected, and those areas of concern have been subsequently addressed.

I can confirm that since the commencement of this initiative to the end of the current tax 3710 year additional tax and National Insurance contribution receipts of at least £1.2 million will have been received. In addition, as a direct result of this exercise a number of people are now categorised as employed and are therefore on the payrolls of Government Departments. Their tax and National Insurance contributions form part of the monthly remittance of those Departments. Consequently, additional tax and National Insurance contribution receipts in 3715 excess of £1.2 million are expected to be achieved on an annual basis and these figures have been taken into account by Treasury in projecting future receipts against a backdrop of reducing staff numbers.

I would add that Government Departments have been fully co-operative and most helpful in assisting officers of the Income Tax Division in carrying out their duties throughout this exercise. 3720

40. Pinewood Shepperton plc – Annual Report; consultancy statement

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

If he will make a statement on the Pinewood Shepperton plc Annual Report for 2013; what the current value of the Pinewood Pictures Fund is as at 30th September 2013; and if he will make a statement on the terms of the consultancy agreement between Gasworks Media and Pinewood? Answer: The Pinewood Annual Report and Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2013 are

a matter of public record. The results for the year and accompanying outlook statements are viewed by the Treasury as being most encouraging. Pinewood, as suggested at the time of the Tynwald debate in June 2012, looks well placed to continue to benefit from the high demand for the UK studio space. 3725

The initial £25 million Media Development Fund allocation, managed by Pinewood Film Advisors Limited (PFA) remains valued at the original sum less the management fees paid for the period to date. The sum invested into film productions amounts to £7,800,433 against which there are no provisions expected to be made against the fund allocation in the immediate


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future. The balance of cash in the Pinewood Film Advisors Fund Account as at 30th September 3730 2013 was £16,834,567.

The arrangements between Pinewood Film Advisors Ltd and GasWorks Media Limited are a matter of public record. For many years, GasWorks Media Limited has been the corporate vehicle that provides the professional services of Steve Christian who, in this case, is representative director/employee of Pinewood Film Advisors Limited. 3735

41. VAT payments 2008-09 – Reduction each year

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

How much VAT was receivable by Treasury in each year from 2008-09; and by how much the Island’s share of VAT reduced over the same period in each year? Answer: The amount of VAT collected in the Isle of Man for each of the five years from 2008-

09 to 2012-13 can be found in section entitled ‘Customs & Excise collected in the Isle of Man’ (s.10.2) of the Detailed Government Accounts for each respective year. These accounts are available to download via: www.gov.im/categories/tax,-vat-and-your-money/government-accounts. 3740

The Island’s share of VAT for each of the five years from 2008-09 to 2012-13 was: 2008-09 – £257,967,556 2009-10 – £240,401,312 2010-11 – £228,842,984 2011-12 – £190,000,000 2012-13 – £190,000,000

42. Cost of living – Comparison with UK average

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What the cost of living in the Island is compared to the UK average? Answer: The findings of the last comparative study of the cost of living on the Isle of Man and

the United Kingdom were published in 1994. Unfortunately therefore, as there is no current data available, it is not possible to provide the statistics requested.


43. TT Races – Red-flagging for medical emergency; person responsible

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:

Who is responsible for red-flagging a TT Race in response to a medical emergency call; and on what basis such decisions are made?

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Answer: The Clerk of the Course is responsible for red flagging a practice or a race whilst in 3745 progress during the TT festival.

There are contingency plans in place to deal with medical emergencies A representative of the Ambulance Service, located within Race Control, has the facility to communicate directly with the service by professional mobile radio and is in close proximity to the Clerk of the Course.

Should the Ambulance Service receive a medical emergency call during a period of road 3750 closure and it is determined that an ambulance is needed to attend to a patient with immediate effect and access to the TT Mountain Course is required, the Ambulance Service representative at Race Control will approach the Clerk of the Course and ask for the practice or race session to be halted so that the ambulance can access the circuit. The Clerk of the Course will then direct that red flags be displayed around the Course. 3755

It may be possible to attend to a patient via air ambulance as an alternative to red flagging a race and this option will be explored, in conjunction with Ambulance Service personnel at Race Control.

Irrespective of the chosen option priority will always be given to the preservation of life over racing. 3760

EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

44. Dogs on school grounds – Minister’s policy

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:

What his policy is on dogs on school grounds?

Answer: The Department of Education and Children’s policy on dogs on school grounds is

clear. With the exception of a registered blind person in charge of a dog when on a visit to the school, a member of staff, a parent or guardian of a registered pupil or a registered pupil at the school, an officer of the Isle of Man Constabulary or an officer of the Isle of Man Customs and Excise when they are engaged in law enforcement functions or a member of Her Majesty’s 3765 Armed Forces when engaged on operational duties, dogs are prohibited from school grounds. The Department would also allow a person as listed above who is a registered keeper of an ‘assist dog’ to bring the dog onto school premises when on an official visit.

In some areas of the Island, local authorities have used the powers provided by the Dogs Act 1990 as amended by the Dogs (Amendment) Act 2006 to include within their byelaws, school 3770 playing fields as areas of open spaces where the exercising of dogs is prohibited.

In the case of Onchan, the current byelaws (The Onchan Dog Control Byelaws 2007) include the playing fields of Ashley Hill Primary School and Onchan Primary School but not the playing fields of St Ninian’s Lower School (Bemahague). My officers have raised this with the Onchan District Commissioners and it is hoped that an amendment to the byelaw will be made. 3775


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HEALTH

45. Medical locum and other agency staff – Salary costs; estimated Tax and NI paid

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health:

What the total salary bill for medical locum and other agency staff was for (a) 2009-10; (b) 2010-11; (c) 2011-12; and (d) 2012-13; and what the estimated amount of Income Tax and National Insurance collected through local payroll arrangements is for these years from this employment? Answer: The total cost for medical locum and other agency staff in the financial years ended

March 2010 to March 2013 were: (a) 2009-2010 – £4,597,416 3780 (b) 2010-2011 – £4,711,450 (c) 2011-2012 – £4,717,247 (d) 2012-2013 – £4,540,348 A direction was issued by the Assessor of Income Tax on 6 April 2012. The Department is 3785

complying with that direction. Since that date only approved agencies have been used. These agencies must register with the Treasury to be on the approved list. Agencies are encouraged to use the services of a local payroll company for income tax and national insurance compliance, failing that a flat rate of 20% is deducted from all payments made to the agencies. The sum collected as a result of direct deductions from payments to agencies in 2012-13 was £97,840.. 3790 However, this does not represent the tax liability of the individuals which is dependent upon their personal circumstances. Discussions with Income Tax Division have not revealed a method of identifying the relevant data at this time.

46. Jurby Health and Community Centre – Running costs; number of patients treated

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Health:

In respect of the Jurby Health and Community Centre: (a) what the annual running costs are; (b) what service level agreement is in place with Ramsey Group Practice; and (c) how many patients are being treated per month? Answer: In respect of the Jurby Health and Community Centre: (a) The annual running costs are currently £87,650. This includes heating, lighting and 3795

cleaning cost of the building and GP, nurse and administrative staff costs. (b) The services that Ramsey Group Practice are contracted to provide in Jurby are set out in

the ‘General Medical Service Contract 2004’. There is also a ‘Dual Site Allowance’ in place with the practice which gives financial support to the practice for working in two sets of premises. This allowance forms part of the running costs of the premises outlined above in terms of staff 3800 costs.

(c) There are an average of 313 patient consultations each month; this includes both GP and nurse appointments.


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47. Noble’s Hospital – In-patient costs per day

The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Minister for Health:

What the cost is per patient per day for their stay in a ward at Noble’s Hospital, broken down by speciality? Answer: As you will be aware having attended a recent briefing on patient safety, this is an 3805

area for which, due to lack of resources, we are not able to give accurate costings. Department staff have worked very hard over the past 12 months to try to bring various data streams together to provide meaningful data.

Attached is a ‘work in progress’ which should not be seen as a final reflection of the actual cost per occupied bed day. Work will continue in the forthcoming year to further refine the 3810 information and to provide accurate information in due course.


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HOME AFFAIRS

48. Court and prison private security – Change of provider; impact on local employment

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

When his Department changed its private security contract with G4S to Resource for court and prison duties; what impact this had on local employment; and whether Resource employs local staff? Answer: The Department – (1) changed its contract with G4S to Resource for court and prison duties effective on 1st July

2013; 3815 (2) believes there has been little impact on local employment as Resource has employed

similar numbers of staff as were formerly employed by G4S; and (3) Resource employs local staff.

INFRASTRUCTURE

49. Summerland site – Current status; Government plans


What the current status of the Summerland Site is; and what the Government plans for it are?


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Answer: At the current time, the Department is working on behalf of the site owners (the Department of Community Culture and Leisure) to secure detailed Heads of Terms for the future 3820 redevelopment of the site.

Assuming the detailed terms can be agreed, it is the intention that the developer will bring forward a planning application for development of the whole site.

Hon. Members will appreciate that development agreements of this nature are often complex and subject to market conditions, but working together with the Attorney General’s 3825 Chambers, I am advised that it is likely the initial terms will be concluded within a matter of weeks.

50. Properties rented by Government – Details, total cost and future plans


How many properties Government currently rents; what and where they are and how much per annum the total cost is; what plans he has to build new properties or use existing Government vacant sites or buildings to re-house some of the rented space that Government is paying for? Answer: From the information that is currently available to the Department, Government

currently rents 32 properties. I have excluded for the purposes of this question, any rental agreements or leases between Departments and Statutory Boards or smaller operational 3830 properties such as sub stations for instance.

In terms of location and type of properties: Douglas – 9 offices, 14 storage/operational facilities, 1 retail unit and 2 healthcare properties Ramsey – the Post Office, Police premises and 1 rented office 3835 Castletown – 2 storage units Onchan – 1 healthcare property The overall rental cost, which has been reducing year on year, is now in the region of

£3.4million per annum, with the vast majority of this cost attributable to office accommodation 3840 in the Douglas area.

This is an area where we have been concentrating effort in recent years. For example, as well as smaller leasehold premises, five significant office leases have been released at Victory House, Rose House, HSBC House, Elm Tree House and Hilary House in Douglas.

Over £700,000 has been saved from the revenue budget from targeting significant savings 3845 from the rented portfolio alone since 2010, and further notices have already been given to vacate further property storage units where accommodation will be further rationalised.

Lease termination and break opportunities are now being managed to enable Government to release surplus rented office accommodation. The initial target is to save a further £800,000 from the rented estate by 2018. 3850

There are at the moment no plans to commit to the construction of any new properties, with initial plans focussed upon the further consolidation of staff within existing premises owned by Government. There is no expectation that new facilities will need to be built to meet expected requirements. 3855


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51. Land and facilities rented by Government/Boards – Details


What land, access points, storage facilities or other property, apart from buildings, Government and its Boards rent?

Answer: Across the Government and its Boards, there is a wide range of property, primarily

land, that incurs a rental cost. These range from easements for sites for strategic infrastructure, such as pumping stations and sub-stations, to long-term historic agreements relating to some of the National Glens. Government also has rented land for civic amenity facilities, tipping, and from time to time, facilities for motorsports, all of which have been necessary to deliver the 3860 functions of Government.

On behalf of Government, the Strategic Asset Management Unit of the Department of Infrastructure has already commenced an exercise of consolidating data in relation to property ownership and rentals, and expects to review the data to identify potential revenue saving opportunities as appropriate. 3865

SOCIAL CARE

52. Children and Families Social Services – Contacts and referrals; details

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

In respect of all contacts and referrals to Children and Families Social Services in the last 12 months to list, broken down by case type – (a) how many times there was a log of a concern about a child or children from an agency or member of the public; (b) how many contacts resulted in a referral to Social Services; how many referrals warranted a more detailed investigation; and (c) how many initial assessments warranted a more detailed investigation, (using the same criteria and format as used on page 14 of the report ‘information in support of the case for additional resources for Children and Families Services’ presented to Tynwald on 29th June 2011)?

Answer: (a) In 2012-13 the Department received 1,876 logs of concern. (b) 729 [39%] were confirmed referrals that received further assessment. (c) See Table 52A below [final column].


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Table 52A Case type Description Historic* 2010-11 2012-13 Contacts A log of a concern re a child or children

from an agency or member of the public 2,000 2,403 1,876

Referrals A contact resulting in a referral to Social Services

150 895 729

Initial Assessments A referral warranting a more detailed investigation

30 498 701

Core Assessments An Initial Assessment warranting a more detailed investigation

20 132 329

53. Glenside site – Condition of buildings; maintenance details

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

What is to become of the vacant Glenside buildings and the large site they stand on; when these substantial buildings were vacated whether they were of good serviceable use; and whether they are being maintained to a serviceable standard? Answer: The Department of Social Care has made no definite decisions with regard to the 3870

future use of the vacant Glenside buildings, and especially with regard to the site. The Department has been clear in its view that the buildings do not meet the standards now required to provide an adequate environment for residential care.

The Department is in the process of establishing a commissioning plan for Adult Services and until this process is complete it is not in a position to provide definitive answers with regard to 3875 future use of various sites. What can be said with some certainty is that the needs of people entering residential care are significantly different now to what they were even five years ago, let alone 40 years ago when Glenside was built. In addition expectations have also risen with regard to living environments. There is an expectation that any new build facility will have wheelchair accessible en-suite shower rooms, bedrooms large enough to accommodate hoists 3880 and such like equipment for safety reasons, and good recreational facilities. Glenside does not meet this standard currently and early studies have highlighted how difficult and potentially expensive it would be to create this accommodation in the existing building, although not impossible. There is also an expectation that such a facility should be co-located with other facilities aimed at a similar client group so that when someone requires a move to a higher 3885 dependency service they are moving very locally, within the same site, rather than a complete move.

The longer-term need for sites to accommodate new residential facilities is also closely related to the Department’s Rebalancing Programme and Housing Review which is ongoing.

The Department therefore is not currently in a position to offer a definitive answer in relation 3890 to the future of the Glenside site but we are looking at all options to provide the most effective services possible for the people of the Island.

At the time that Glenside was vacated both the mechanical and electrical installations were in need of major upgrading and renewal. The fabric of the building was in good condition. The interior layout did not comply with guidelines that are currently in place for residential care. 3895

When the building closed the gas supply was disconnected, as was the water supply. Water systems were drained to ensure that damage to the fabric of the building would not be caused by flooding due to burst pipes.


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The maintenance that now takes place consists of ensuring the fire alarm is effective and those gardens that have a public frontage are kept to a reasonable standard. 3900

As the building, certainly in its current configuration, cannot be used for its designed purpose any future use would involve a full rewiring and re-plumbing of the building. Consequently there is no maintenance taking place on the electrical and mechanical installations other than the fire alarm. The building has a security check daily and there is a monthly process of checking for any water ingress which would cause rapid deterioration to the fabric of the building. 3905

54. Children and Families Social Services – Details of referrals


In respect of all referrals to Children and Families Social Services in the last 12 months – How many referrals were the result of a visit by a child to (a) Accident and Emergency at Noble’s Hospital; and (b) the Minor Injuries Unit at Ramsey Cottage Hospital; and how many such referrals led to the identification of a child suffering, or likely to suffer, significant harm as defined in section 23(1) of the Children and Young Persons Act 2001 broken down by referrals in (a) and (b)? Answer: The number of referrals from Accident and Emergency is not collated specifically at

present. The referral source identifies agency. However, the source of referrals, including notifications from A&E will be reported on in the following year.

55. Children and Families Social Services – Number of referrals


In respect of all referrals to Children and Families Social Services in the last 12 months – (a) how many led to the identification of a child suffering, or likely to suffer, significant harm as defined in section 23(1) of the Children and Young Persons Act 2001; (b) how many led to the identification of a child in need as defined in section 23(2) of the Children and Young Persons Act 2001; and (c) of the children identified in (b) above, how many were provided with a service listed in section 23(3) of the Children and Young Persons Act 2001; and of the number of children subject to a Child Protection Plan – (i) how many children had previously been subject to a Child Protection Plan or listed on the child protection register, or were previously known to Social Services; (ii) how many children were on the child protection register or subject to a Child Protection Plan at the end of each month; and (iii) how many families with children on the child protection register or subject to a Child Protection Plan there were at the end of each month? Answer: (a) In the year up to end of March 2013 there were 1,876 referrals to children’s

Social Care, 729 [39%] resulted in an initial assessment in respect of an identified safeguarding 3910 concern, 225 [12%]resulted in a child protection investigation.


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(b) The data is not collated to show how many become child in need over the year as it is not static, but child in need accounts for 59% of open cases. Currently this is 267 children. Of these 65 children are children with disabilities.

(c) The number of children receiving a service does not remain static. Some receive services 3915 for a short period and some for longer. At the end of the period 455 children were receiving a service.

Of the number subject of a CP plan: (i) Eight children had previously been subject of a CP plan. The Department does not

simultaneously collate which children had previously been known to the Department, but that 3920 information is recorded in the assessment documentation.

(ii) This data is collated quarterly and is as follows: Quarter 1: 56 Quarter 2: 61 Quarter 3: 55 3925 Quarter 4: 42 (iii) We do not automatically collate how many families this relates to as children of the same

family are not always in the same household or with the same carer. However, from a sample exercise at the end of the year the 42 children were from 25 families.

56. Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2013 – Purpose; subsequent use

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

What the purpose is of bringing forward the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2013; and to what effect the Department intends to use the Act within the next twelve months? Answer: A briefing note on this subject has been circulated to Hon. Members, and Members 3930

were sent a letter to clarify the purpose of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011. The contents of the letter were as follows:

Parts 1 and 2 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 came into operation on the announcement of Royal Assent of this Act to Tynwald.

The Department of Social Care (DSC) then brought into operation the provisions of the Act, 3935 except those contained in Part 3, into operation on 1st May 2012.

Part 3 of the Act required the drafting of Regulations, by the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture (DEFA), in respect of the Control of Flats and Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMOs) before it could be enforced. In the absence of these Regulations enactment of Part 3 and, by default, Schedule 3 of the Act (which is linked by Section 4 to DEFA powers in 3940 relation to HMOs) was deferred until such time the Regulations could be progressed.

The purpose of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2013 laid before Tynwald today is to bring into operation Part 3 of the Housing (MISC Provisions) Act 2011, for the purposes of making regulations from 1 October 2013, and for all other purposes from 1 January 2014. 3945

Part 3 of the Act provides DEFA with powers to ‘make regulations about facilities provided in, and in connection with, the occupation of flats and houses in multiple occupation’ (HMOs). A public consultation was recently undertaken by DEFA on the proposals for the introduction of regulations requiring flats and HMOs to be registered and regulations setting standards of amenity in both. An Order was also proposed defining what constitutes a flat or a HMO. 3950


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The consultation commenced on 13th February 2013 and ended on 10th May 2013. The consultation was conducted in accordance with the Code of Practice published by the Council of Ministers in June 2008. Accordingly local authorities were consulted on these proposals, including the fact that they were the enforcing authorities for the Regulations, using Environmental Health Officers from DEFA as their agents and authorised officers. This is an 3955 ‘enforcement arrangement’ that exists with other housing and public health related legislation which is the duty of the local authorities to enforce.

The Appointed Order also by default also brings into operation Schedule 3 of the Act which relates to general amendments to housing legislation, primarily the Housing Act 1955 and the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976. 3960

In addition to DEFA powers in relation to Section 92 (interpretation) of the Housing Act 1955, Schedule 3 contains provisions to capture formally in legislation, the Tynwald Resolution of 20th October 1999, which lays out the Tynwald conditions for the payment of housing deficiency funding to local authorities. The 1999 Tynwald resolution states that:

‘(b) the authority shall implement such all-Island policy for the provision of housing as is determined by the department after consultation with all local authorities concerned;’ To confirm the only difference in wording between the resolution and Schedule 3, section 3965

6(3) of the Act is that the Act uses the words ‘may adopt’ instead of ‘shall implement’. As Hon. Members will be aware housing deficiency funding is already subject to the

provisions of the 1999 Tynwald resolution and therefore the legislation is unlikely to have any impact in this respect, as it simple formalises the conditions already applied by Tynwald.

Schedule 3 also, for the first time, creates offences and introduces penalties in relation to 3970 obtaining the provision of public sector housing by false representation or fraudulent means. It is these powers that will be used by the DSC and other public sector landlords going forward.

57. Planning application for children’s day care premises – Government involvement

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

What role his Department plays during the application process for (a) planning permission and (b) registered building consent when the application is made for premises in which it is intended day care for children takes place? Answer: (a) The Department of Social Care through its Registration and Inspection Unit has a duty to

register people and premises where prescribed care services are to be provided. It does not get 3975 involved in the application for planning permission; this is the responsibility of the applicant.

However as part of the registration process checks the unit will ensure the premises does have the correct planning permission for the business proposed in the registration. Information that is required in a registration application includes: floor plans, policies and procedures, application forms with personal details, financial business plan, confirmation that Environmental 3980 Health and fire safety reports have been conducted and if planning permission has been granted.

It is possible that an application for registration for a child day care facility may be processed in tandem with an individual’s application for planning permission although the two processes are separate. Planning Division personnel can contact the Unit to seek advice about relevant 3985 care standards governing the operation of child day care services.


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(b) With regards to ‘registered building consent’ the same principles apply. The Registration and Inspection Unit will not influence the planning deliberations and will consider any application for registration of a child day care facility with a site visit once it has received confirmation that the applicant has received planning permission. 3990

Order of the Day

3. Government progress over the last year and priorities for the year ahead – Statement by the Chief Minister

The President: We now revert to our Order Paper, and I call on the Chief Minister to make a

Statement at Item 3. The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, in keeping with my commitment to

openness, I am beginning this new session of Tynwald with a Statement summarising the 3995 progress Government has made over the past year and setting out its priorities for the future. But first, it is important to look at our current economic position.

The National Income Accounts, which will be released this week, will confirm that growth in the economy has slowed to 2% in 2011-12; but since then, economic performance has improved and indications are that our economy is currently growing at a rate of between 3% and 4%. Our 4000 unemployment rate remains low, at 2.3%, and with more than 1,200 new jobs created during this past year, we have more people in employment than ever before – over 49,000. The World Bank says our national per capita income is amongst the world’s top 10 – a remarkable achievement for the Isle of Man. For the first time, the Isle of Man’s GDP has grown to be the largest of the three Crown dependencies at £3.78 billion. All this is very positive news. 4005

Against this backdrop, however, Government has been working to manage the loss of nearly a third of its revenues, caused by the renegotiation of the VAT revenue sharing agreement with the United Kingdom. We have been driving forward many policy areas as we strive to deliver our three priorities of growing the economy so that we can rebalance the budget whilst protecting the vulnerable, and out of that effort have come some important achievements. 4010

Most notably, I believe, is the transformation of the Isle of Man’s international reputation. Only five years ago, the Government of the United Kingdom viewed the Isle of Man unfavourably. This is in marked contrast to the positive comments that have been made in recent months. The change was summarised quite clearly by Prime Minister, David Cameron, who recently told the House of Commons that we had demonstrated a clear commitment to tax 4015 transparency and were not a tax haven; (A Member: Hear, hear.) and last week he wrote to me to say, ‘I look forward to continued positive engagement with the Isle of Man. ’

We have earned this recognition for our leadership on tax transparency issues, working with the United Kingdom towards making automatic exchange of information a global standard. We were amongst the first international business centres to agree to exchange tax information 4020 automatically with the United States under its Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) regime. We were also amongst the first to agree to join in the G5 pilot project, based on the same principles, and we have signalled our intent to sign the OECD’s Multilateral Convention on Tax Matters.

Most significantly, last week the Isle of Man was the first country, other than the United 4025 States, to sign a FATCA-style agreement with the United Kingdom. The agreement extends the scope of automatic disclosure to include, for example, companies and trusts. The UK Chancellor, George Osborne, welcomed this agreement, calling it a ‘momentous step towards tax


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transparency’ and commended the Isle of Man for being ‘the first jurisdiction to sign an agreement of this kind with the UK.’ 4030

Our reputation is further enhanced through the work of our International Development Committee which has, as its primary focus, projects that build capacity and sustainability in developing countries. This year, we made a commitment to support the Small Countries Financial Management Programme with annual funding of £300,000 over the next three years. The Programme allows us to share our best practice and expertise with others, not only 4035 stimulating capacity building but also enhancing the Island’s international reputation. Through the Committee, the Isle of Man has also made a commitment to Sierra Leone of £250,000 annually for three years. (Interjection) This supports a fisheries management and sustainability project, providing funding and technical assistance aligned to World Bank initiatives in the region. I would like to thank the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne, as Chairman of the 4040 Committee, for his hard work in driving forward this project.

In reviewing the achievements of the past year, we must also remember the outstanding success of our national team at the Island Games in Bermuda. They have earned our admiration and congratulations.

The Isle of Man has also made a number of wins in growing the economy. We are winning 4045 business from more countries than ever before. One of these is China. Twelve delegations, with more than 40 people, have visited the Island from China in the past year. The Chinese Ambassador to the United Kingdom has travelled to the Island twice in recent months, taking a personal interest in how our countries might successfully work together. Additionally, the Isle of Man Government and local business leaders have made several visits to China, promoting the 4050 Island and cementing relationships upon which new business is built. We have opened a representative office in Shanghai, the principal business centre. As a result of building these links, Government is actively discussing nearly 20 serious proposals. The first of the Chinese enterprises to settle here, Linso, has recently been announced.

From the Middle East, Island businesses are bringing more revenue than ever to the Isle of 4055 Man: more than £3 billion in bank deposits, £2 billion in life insurance funds, and another 40 corporate jets for our register.

As the Minister for Economic Development explained to the media last week, 2013 has been another encouraging year for our visitor economy. We saw an upsurge of interest in the TT Festival, with 40,000 visitors coming this year – up 27% on the comparable figure for 2010. 4060 Treasury has assessed the economic benefit to the Island of this year’s TT to be £18.9 million, with a benefit to Government coffers of £3.5 million.

Madam President, whatever action we take to rebalance Government’s budget, grow the economy or protect the vulnerable must be driven by sound policy. So, as a result, Government introduced several new key strategies which were approved by Tynwald during this past year. 4065

Our strategy on taxation strives to provide a tax system which is fair, supports economic development, is easy to understand and comply with, is simple to administer and continues to build the Isle of Man’s international reputation. The strategy also makes clear that Treasury has no intention of introducing capital gains or inheritance taxes into the Isle of Man.

The Criminal Justice Strategy is aimed at cutting costs by streamlining administration 4070 processes and reducing the number of low-level offences appearing before the Manx courts.

The strategy on the environment and infrastructure seeks to provide a setting that enables people to live, work, travel and to enjoy a good quality of life and where new and existing businesses can flourish. The strategy recognises that we must use our natural resources sustainably and respond to the global challenges, responsibilities and opportunities which are 4075 presented by food security, energy security and climate change issues.

The strategy on social care outlines Government’s new focus on commissioning services, rather than on providing them directly. Government will step back if other organisations can provide better services at better value for money. As part of the social and welfare reforms


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under the strategy, the Department of Social Care has been assessing the provision of services 4080 for adults, children and families, housing and social security.

The focal point of Government’s strategy to grow the economy is the Department of Economic Development’s Vision 2020 initiative. With the support of the Island’s business community – who have been indicating their confidence is high with good expectations for many – this will look at all factors impacting our economy, including legislation and regulation, tax 4085 policy, infrastructure, workforce skills and Government capabilities.

I would like to thank my Ministers for the work they have done so far; and to build further on that work, I have asked them to drive forward the initiatives agreed in all these strategies with urgency.

Madam President, some critics suggest that Government seems to have made little progress 4090 over the past year in becoming more efficient and reducing Government spending. That is simply not the case. I am not sure that this message is fully understood by everyone in the community, or even in this Hon. Court. We have set a target of making £10 million in annual efficiency savings through the Transforming Government programme. To reach this target, considerable work has been ongoing to ensure Government becomes simpler, more efficient 4095 and provides better value for the taxpayer. As a result, Treasury is continuing to forecast that we will rebalance our budget in 2015-16, in line with its original plan. But let me be clear: this does not mean the job is done and we will be able to resume our old spending habits.

Progress on reducing the deficit has been explained in Questions this morning, but I think it deserves repeating. Treasury originally projected deficits and withdrawals from the reserve 4100 funds of £92 million in total. We are likely to withdraw between £84 million and £89 million on current projections.

The centralisation of services – such as finance, payroll, human resources and IT – has provided opportunities for cost savings as well as for the streamlining of processes in order to improve efficiencies. The recent merger of the Harbours and Airports Divisions of the 4105 Department of Infrastructure aligns perfectly with our aim of smaller government. Another example – the centralisation of Procurement Services – has brought savings of some £2 million over the last two years.

Under the Scope of Government programme, we have reviewed services with a value of around £164 million this year. These include the Prison, Airport and harbours, many Hospital 4110 support services, the MEA and the Water and Sewerage Authority, the bus and rail services and employment support. The Chamber of Commerce has recently agreed to assist this review process by considering some of the business cases and discussing possible options for alternative means of delivering Government services. I am grateful for their support in this important exercise. I propose to hold another session for Hon. Members in the near future to 4115 explain the progress being made with the Scope of Government initiatives and to outline the next steps in the process.

We have succeeded in restraining Government’s wage bill below inflation. Overall, a saving of more than £50 million in real terms has been achieved since 2010 as a result of reductions in staffing and below-inflation pay awards. Concerned about high levels of staff sickness, I have 4120 driven forward a number of measures with the Office of Human Resources. These have seen the cost of absences fall and this has resulted in a productivity gain of £1.31 million.

Government has also been working to make better use of its buildings by reducing the amount of office space it rents and the number of buildings it owns. In the last two years, the Strategic Asset Management Unit has reduced expenditure annually by over £700,000 and 4125 expects to more than double these savings by 2018.

In addition to the revenue savings on rented accommodation, Government has disposed of over £5.1 million of surplus property in the last two years against an initial target of £4 million over that same period. Already in this financial year, some £675,000 of property sales have been completed, with over £2.5 million of agreed transactions now in the process of being concluded. 4130


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In expecting substantial change to be delivered across Government, I felt it was important to seek the views of staff and to encourage them to engage with our collective effort. As a result, I have visited all Departments over the past few months to do just this and listen to their opinions. During these visits, I was especially impressed by the professionalism and dedication of the staff I met. Among the things I heard was that although we are improving, we are still not 4135 good enough at communicating with one another inside Government and with the public. We must, and will, do better.

While we have to make every effort to reduce our costs, it is vitally important that Government continues to invest in the Island’s infrastructure. Over the past year, Government has spent some £29 million on projects ranging from the building of new school facilities and 4140 sheltered housing to the reconstruction of our major roads. Completed schemes include the Victoria Road School in Castletown and the Isle of Man College Special Unit.

Significant schemes which were commenced during the past 12 months include Peel Road construction, phase 2 of the Mill Road Yard in Peel and the reconstruction of Douglas Promenade. 4145

Local authorities’ schemes which were commenced include Upper Pulrose sheltered housing, elderly persons housing in Peel and the refurbishment of 46 dwellings in Onchan.

In addition, we have also invested about £2.5 million in regional sewerage infrastructure schemes. More than £2 million have been spent in the past year on regeneration schemes in Castletown, Douglas and Ramsey. This activity has enhanced the appearance of our town 4150 centres and provided much-needed accommodation for the vulnerable.

It has also helped the construction industry, which continues to remain under pressure. It is only one indicator of the industry’s strength, but the number of construction workers on the unemployment register has fallen by roughly half since this time last year.

Overall, Government’s reserves, totalling £1.57 billion, continue to be strong. I am 4155 concerned, however, that under our efforts to rebalance Government’s finances, the Capital Fund is diminishing. Consequently, I have asked Treasury to come back in its next Budget with options for replenishing it.

Madam President, Government has taken many actions in line with our ongoing commitment to increase transparency and accountability. For example, the public now can monitor 4160 Government’s performance online. Located on our website, the performance site sets out what Government intends to deliver over the next three years and provides quarterly updates, not only on targets met but on areas where more needs to be done.

In aiming to make our services and information easier to find, we also redesigned Government’s website. It was launched in September and has been well received by the public. 4165 Among the features of the new website is an improved online transaction service, which this year alone will process more than £500 million – about the same amount as our previous online service took in its first 10 years. This is clear evidence that we are listening to the preferences of our customers and providing the services they need, while still making our operations more efficient. 4170

Less high tech, but also effective in reaching the public, have been our quarterly community meetings. The public has welcomed these opportunities and I have decided to continue with them as long as there is still an interest in them. In fact, next week my ministerial team and I will be in Peel responding to questions and listening to the views of residents.

Now I would like to turn to further initiatives taken within specific areas of Government since 4175 last October. The Department of Economic Development has reviewed its Financial Assistance Scheme. It has updated guidelines to help support business in both the visitor economy and financial services to market themselves off Island. It has also increased support for eligible businesses locating in regeneration areas outside of Douglas. The Department has made 52 offers of financial assistance, totalling £3.7 million – 36 of the offers contained a marketing 4180 element totalling a further £450,000, and 21 were to new businesses altogether.


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An example of how we have given added depth to our skills base: Government has worked with local manufacturers to provide a new engineering training programme at the Isle of Man College. With 18 places, it represents a 50% increase on last year and we will be doubling that number again to 36 from next year onwards. 4185

Another means for helping the economy to grow has been through a simplification of the Work Permit system. For example, a streamlined process for skilled ICT and engineering workers was introduced in September, shortening the waiting time for a decision to two working days; and secondary school teachers, who are key to helping our young people develop skills and knowledge for the future, no longer need Work Permits. I have also asked that a similar 4190 exemption be extended to key health worker professionals.

New byelaws were introduced to allow enhanced fishery stock management, which will improve the sustainable profitability of the Isle of Man’s fishery industry.

Government responded to the unprecedented storm in March with both practical support during the incident and financial support of over £600,000 to facilitate recovery in the 4195 agricultural sector. The outstanding response of the Island as a whole to this exceptionally difficult period was a demonstration of our selfless community spirit, which needs to be commended.

In the past year, Government has acted to protect the vulnerable in our society in a number of ways. Changes outlined in the Criminal Justice Strategy have already shown some positive 4200 results. Court duty advocate costs have been reduced by 62% with the co-operation of the Law Society. The Juvenile Justice Team reported that 80% of juveniles it had cautioned have not reoffended; and of the 107 young people not in employment or education who were interviewed by the team, 80% are now in employment.

Looking further into the needs of the unemployed and the young, £300,000 in additional 4205 funding was committed to help cut the numbers of long-term unemployed in half by March 2015. One hundred and ninety placements have been provided since October 2012 for young people not in employment, education or training – nearly double the annual target; and 55% of those young people have entered employment as a direct result of their placement.

In our Health Service, Government has delivered more beds for elderly mentally ill patients in 4210 the north and south of the Island, a new renal unit at Ramsey Cottage Hospital, an improved cardiac pacemaking service; improved breast surgery services; introduced an award-winning iHub performance information system; and commissioned the West Midlands Quality Review Service to undertake an independent inspection of critical care services.

I also want to speak specifically about measures to address concerns about the quality of our 4215 healthcare. With the support of the Minister, I have visited Noble’s Hospital on several occasions, visiting different departments and speaking to staff at all levels, including many consultants. I have also met with union representatives and had very positive and constructive discussions. I would now like to thank all those whom we met for giving up their time and being so open and frank with us during our meetings. 4220

I believe the steps which are now being taken to improve the service are a positive response to the concerns which have been expressed. They include, among others: a review of implications of the Francis Report, commissioned by the Minister for Health and being led by the Hon. Member in Council, Mr Coleman; and as previously mentioned, an independent external review of the Island’s Health Service by the West Midlands Quality Review Service. 4225

The first area to be studied next month will be emergency care – the area of concern for several consultants at the Hospital. We have several ongoing workstreams to improve patient safety, and I have set up an independent review of management structures, which is expected to report next month. As well, I am taking steps to ensure that issues that have been raised with me on recruitment, IT and staffing in the Health Service are addressed with some urgency. 4230

Madam President, looking to the year ahead, building on the wide range of policy work and initiatives already underway, Government will push forward with many changes in the next year.


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As we move ahead, we must be aware that the challenges we will face will test our resilience and resourcefulness far more than in recent years.

To help rebalance Government finances, and make Government simpler and more efficient, 4235 we will pursue several robust reforms. We will create a Public Services Commission, following the introduction of legislation in the forthcoming parliamentary year. It is intended that the Commission will bring together the management of civil servants and staff from Whitley Council and that the Commission will be able to establish joint negotiating and consultative machinery for all its employees. 4240

Government is making progress on identifying the benefits of bringing together the Manx Electricity Authority and the Water and Sewerage Authority. The MEA debt continues to mount, but I do not believe that we can raise tariffs above inflation without adversely affecting key business sectors or the cost of living in the Isle of Man. Therefore, I am sending a strong message that, unless there are insurmountable reasons, I would like this merger to go ahead to ensure we 4245 have a sustainable future both for the MEA and the Water and Sewerage Authority – both vital elements of our national infrastructure.

I also expect the near future will bring a positive announcement relating to the fibre optic cable that will bring further resilience to our infrastructure and benefits to our economy.

The Council of Ministers will make an announcement in the not-too-distant future on the 4250 business case for the corporatisation of the Post Office.

We will also bring forward freedom of information legislation for public consultation by the end of this year.

The Department of Infrastructure will report to the Council of Ministers in the next two months on proposals for alternative means of delivery for waste collection and disposal. 4255 Currently, waste collection services are delivered through a number of separate local authorities and through a number of joint partnerships. With their current structure, however, the Island’s 24 local authorities are not in a position to deliver greater efficiencies and improve service standards, so we have been working with them to find a satisfactory route to reform. I look forward to the full co-operation of local authorities as progress towards this necessary objective 4260 continues through the ongoing efforts of the Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan and the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.

One of the key elements in our commitment to the environment and to maintaining the pivotal role of the Isle of Man within the Irish Sea is the Isle of Man Marine Plan. Through it, Government will put in place a blueprint for current and future uses of Manx waters within our 4265 12-mile territorial limit. It will help to maximise economic development opportunities – for example, offshore wind farms or tidal power installations – through a sustainable approach to our marine environment. As you will know from recent announcements, Government will be working with procurement consultants to further investigate the potential of offshore wind farms in our waters for exporting power to the UK. This is a development that could be worth 4270 over £5 million a year to Government, as well as providing between 20 and 60 jobs.

Before the end of the year, Madam President, I will propose changes to the structure of Government, starting with my office and the Council of Ministers. We must have more robust means for developing policies and driving through change if we are to deal effectively with the critical issues our Island faces. Government can no longer work in departmental silos. We will be 4275 reviewing the budget-setting process, which I believe needs improvement for the future to reflect those concerns. We must put the needs of our citizens above the outdated structures of Government to deliver the right outcomes. Council of Ministers and chief officers have been working together to develop our plan for addressing these issues, which will continue as a matter of urgency. 4280

To grow the economy in the year ahead, Government will present its report on Vision 2020 to Tynwald in January and will work with our business community to implement its recommendations.


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As well, Government will be backing efforts by the Manx Educational Foundation to create a specialist IT training facility in the Island. Hon. Members should hear more about this tomorrow 4285 in a briefing by the Minister for Economic Development.

We will also continue to strengthen our political and economic links with the UK north west region. A key priority will be the International Festival for Business in Liverpool next summer. It will be the biggest such event since the Festival of Britain in 1951, attracting some quarter of a million business and government leaders. The UK will be promoting British exports and seeking 4290 inward investment both into Britain and by British companies abroad. The Isle of Man Government will be there, and I urge Island businesses to join us.

I will be supporting the Island’s current efforts to build our political and economic relationship with China by leading a trade delegation to Beijing there early next year.

Economic growth cannot be secured without the involvement of our private sector, and I 4295 applaud those business leaders who are working with Government to explore opportunities for the Island. I am committed to continuing to nurture a positive partnership between Government and our community.

Being good partners, we also recognise how important reliable air links are for both business and leisure travel. Like us all, I look forward to a positive announcement soon about flights 4300 between the Island and London, which the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Cretney, outlined for us this afternoon.

I will reconstitute the Public Sector Pensions Working Group to review the sustainability of the Government Unified Scheme and will organise a session for Tynwald Members to be briefed.

In April, we will introduce means testing for Child Benefit, one of the key planks of the Social 4305 Care Strategy, so that scarce resources can be directed to those who need it most.

Further elements of the social strategy will be delivered in the year ahead, including the submission of the housing review report to Tynwald in November and the implementation of recommendations from the review of Children’s Services.

In 2014, Government will seek UNESCO accreditation for the whole Isle of Man as a 4310 recognised biosphere. This is a valued designation which would acknowledge the unique nature of the Island and will provide economic growth opportunities, directly through environmental tourism and indirectly through association with the UNESCO brand.

We will also develop a strategy for food security in the Isle of Man, taking into account the role of local retailers and Government procurement, as well as changes to the world food 4315 market associated with climate change, population growth and international transport costs.

Government will bring forward an Environment and Climate Change Bill to identify a plan for meeting the 80% reduction in emissions target. This will support strategies for reducing household and commercial consumption and initiatives to switch to electric and wood chip energy. 4320

2014 will be the Isle of Man’s Year of Culture. It will be a year of celebration, recognising the arts and culture that make the Island unique and vibrant, and also recognising the value economically it can bring to the Island. It is also very pleasing to see already that the private sector is embracing the year-long programme, and I hope Hon. Members will be equally enthusiastic. 4325

Madam President, in drawing my Statement to a close, I look further ahead, where there are growing challenges to the long-term sustainability of the Island’s economy. The biggest threat to the economic and social future of the Isle of Man is the demographic reality that our nation is growing older. As in many nations, without greater economic expansion there will be fewer people of working age to pay for the needs of the elderly and the young. In the next 20 years, 4330 the number of residents aged 65 and over is expected to grow by 75%, with the overall population growing by only 16%. Even overlooking the effects of inflation or a demand for more services, this could mean that the cost of healthcare for people over 80 alone in the Isle of Man would double from roughly £25 million to more than £50 million in that same period.


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A working group examining the issues relevant to the ageing population will be reporting 4335 soon to the Council of Ministers. I have asked for resources to be put in place to take forward its recommendations with some urgency. I intend to use their report to stimulate a wide public discussion on how we address the difficult issues of providing pensions, healthcare and social services, not only for the elderly but for the wider population, in a viable manner.

Among our considerations in that debate must be the role of population growth in 4340 maintaining the economy we need. Quite frankly, our current system is not sustainable within a low tax environment without a radical review of how we deliver services, raising charges or means testing. Nonetheless, we must also be mindful of the pressure of an increasing cost of living on household budgets.

Rebalancing Government’s budget by 2015-16 will only be the first step, but it will not solve 4345 our long-term problems.

In the next 12 months, the assessment of our national spending will be completed and negotiations will begin with the United Kingdom over the level of VAT revenues we should be receiving for the future. The outcome of those negotiations cannot be taken for granted.

Other threats to our economy could be posed by the current review of UK banking. We have 4350 been working closely with Jersey and Guernsey, the UK Treasury and our banking community to make certain our response ensures the viability of our banking industry for the future. We also need to be alert to potential risks posed by external factors.

As a small jurisdiction, whose current and future economic prosperity depends on our ability to attract foreign investment and to trade across borders, we must be in the business of wanting 4355 to trade in all markets, including the European Union. Discussions with the EU over banking reform, access to markets for financial services and possible future developments on tax are ongoing. The Isle of Man is very much engaged with the UK’s audit of what the EU does and how it affects the UK. We are already working on how best to deal with the potential impact if the UK initiates some form of withdrawal in response to its referendum about membership of the 4360 European Union.

Even closer to home is the question of Scottish independence. The referendum will be held in September next year and the outcome could position Scotland either as a fierce economic competitor or as a helpful ally. Whatever the outcome, I look forward to continuing the positive relationship we have established with Scotland. 4365

To conclude, Madam President, my comments today do not include every aspect of Government’s activities, rather an overview of some of the progress made and the challenges ahead. We have had two difficult years. If we are to protect our achievements of the last 25 years and the quality of life we all value, we cannot contemplate failure.

Although I have highlighted some of the challenges, which I do not deny are serious, I 4370 strongly believe, especially based on our past achievements, that working together constructively with business and the wider community we can protect and develop still further a strong, fair, inclusive and tolerant Island with a sustainable and stable economy. This will deliver a truly prosperous and caring society into the future; a future, Madam President, I believe our nation deserves. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) 4375

Thank you. The President: We can take questions, Hon. Members, on the Statement, if any Member

wishes to ask a question. The Hon. Member, Mr Ronan. 4380 Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. As we enter our third year in the term of this Government, I would hope by now we would

have a clarity on the true direction of travel for this Government – 4385


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The President: Can I just make clear the point, Hon Member, that you may ask questions of the Minister. This is not a debate.

The Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Can I ask the Chief Minister, does he still intend to come back to this Hon. Court 4390

with the proposals in December for transforming Government that he promised us earlier in the year? He has asked the Departments, I think, to come back by December. He indicated at that time he would also come back to us with his views on that. Does he still intend to do so at that time?

4395 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Madam President, the Scope of Government work, which has been going

on now for several months, is due to end at the end of December, so I doubt I will be actually in this Chamber by December; but shortly afterwards I hope we will be able to analyse the returns 4400 we get from Departments and then put them in some order to make some further recommendations.

I would also add, Madam President, that it is my intention and Council’s intention to put on a separate presentation for Members, once we have got that information available, to engage everybody in whatever the future might be. 4405

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. In previous times, we would normally come into Tynwald Court in October and have a policy 4410

debate. Is this the change that the Chief Minister now wishes to impose upon the Court, for not only this year but for future years, where he will get up and make a Statement on what he sees to be progress and priorities for his Government and only allow Members to raise questions, rather than to have policy debates on the merits or otherwise of perhaps prioritising the Health Department, for example, or Social Care or Education? Is this now the future pattern of policy, 4415 that we do not have any more policy debates; we just listen to the diktat from the Council of Ministers and we are afforded a question or two, if Madam President permits?

The President: Chief Minister. 4420 The Chief Minister: Very sad, the Hon. Member has missed the point entirely of this exercise. Madam President, this is the second year now we have brought this new procedure in. I said

at the outset of my term of office I did not believe the old Government Plan that we had, which was very much a mishmash of a debate at the start of each term, actually brought a great deal of benefit to us, or certainly very little clarity to anyone. 4425

It is my intention, through this Statement, to try and give an overview of where we have come from and where I see the challenges in the time ahead. If Members would like a debate on any aspect of it, I am sure that can be facilitated, but for the purpose of this exercise it is a Statement to simply inform Tynwald and the wider Island of where we have come from and where we see the future developing within the strategy we are developing. 4430

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Could I ask the Chief Minister, in a similar vein, regarding the business change management 4435

group, or this group that meets? Could I ask the Chief Minister, is it possible to have some information from this particular group to see what they are actually tasked to do? Would it be


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possible to have their agenda, just to see what they are actually discussing and what is the flavour coming forward, so Members…? If we are all to row together, and some of us will be rowing together, we need to know which way we are going to be rowing. (Interjection) 4440

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: This is part of the Scope of Government work, Madam President, and

there will be a full presentation to Members as soon as we have that information. 4445 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. A couple of questions, Chief Minister, if you would, please, on what you have previously said. 4450 Firstly, regarding the Hospital, you mentioned the new workstreams, which we know came

into being a few months ago. I am just wondering if you could clarify how many there are and are they working well – are they achieving what you wanted them to achieve?

With regard to the management structure, is it the structure itself that is being reviewed – i.e. how many people there are in management etc and what their roles are – or is it the 4455 personalities that are being reviewed at the same time, the actual people involved in management at the moment?

And just a little bit of clarity on the budget-setting process. You said this was being reviewed. Whilst I am delighted to hear it is being reviewed – because when I brought the motion asking for exactly that to happen, I was told there were no problems with the current procedure – I am 4460 just wondering if you can give us a flavour of what sort of review… where you think that is actually going.

The President: Chief Minister. 4465 The Chief Minister: Madam President, in terms of the workstreams, I do not have the actual

number of workstreams which are underway at the moment. I am reliably informed, from a source within this Court, that it is five – thank you, Dudley. It is too early to say how well they are going, but they are progressing as planned.

The review of management which had been initiated: we have brought outside management 4470 consultants in to look at the overall management structure at this stage, not the personalities of it. We want to make sure the structure is right. We will deal with the personalities once we can be sure the structure is in an appropriate form.

As far as the budget review is concerned, I think we are getting to the point now where simply top slicing departmental budgets annually is starting to distort the priorities within 4475 Government’s spend. What I am anxious to achieve, although I cannot give any absolute details at this stage, is a new approach to budgeting which breaks out of the usual silo top-slicing approach to budgeting to see if we can adopt a broader approach across issues, rather than about specific Departments. As we develop that thought, Madam President, we will make it more clear to Members. 4480

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. I guess the Chief Minister would not share my disappointment then that we are having a 4485

chance to ask questions, rather than a policy debate, because I do share – although I have only been here a little while – the regret that we do not actually have the annual reporting system now, which I believe, with tweaks – like the website, which gives you a chance to report on performance and us to consider performance… that we do not have that process now.


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Some very specific questions, Madam President, for the Chief Minister. The first one: does 4490 the Chief Minister share my frustration and that of several others that the Open Skies Policy was not reviewed by June 2013, as was intended at this time last year? In fact, are transport regulation and indeed more generally regulation accepted as vital issues, priorities, especially given the relatively high cost of living on the Isle of Man, which we learnt just now from the Written Answer we do not actually know what it is since 1994, apparently? Is that not a priority, 4495 to consider transport supply, transport pricing, energy supply, energy pricing? More generally, does the Island need a transport strategy, Chief Minister? Madam President, I ask the Chief Minister that because I cannot find one at the moment.

Can I ask the Chief Minister whether the Government has yet been able to identify the services for which the user should pay, as was promised would happen within a year last 4500 October; and also how the public has been involved in the debate so far? For instance, in Health and Social Care, have those services and that provision – which will no longer be free at the point of delivery or universal – been determined and decided, as was intended at this time last year?

More generally, could I ask the Chief Minister that, as the structure of Government is clearly 4505 back in the melting pot now, given the announcements affecting senior management at the harbours and Airport and consideration of the possibility to try and mix water and electricity in a new utilities Statutory Board, would it not make sense to reintegrate many parts of Social Care back into the Department of Health, creating a Department of Health and Wellbeing, for instance? This might be especially valuable to enhance provision and cut costs with an ageing 4510 population for whom health and care issues are more merged, I believe, than they are for younger people?

Madam President, does the Chief Minister – The President: Can I just suggest that you can have more than one bite at the cherry? It 4515

might be helpful not to list them all at once. Chief Minister, would you like to answer those questions? The Chief Minister: I will try to answer some of them, Madam President. There were a lot

rattled out there. 4520 The Open Skies Policy has been reviewed by the Economic Committee and is laid before

today, I think, for further consideration. We will be looking at the recommendations which come out of that.

The Department of Infrastructure is still talking to the Steam Packet in relation to sea transport matters. 4525

The user pays principle: whilst it has not been finally decided yet, work is progressing well, I think, within the Department of Social Care in particular, in relation to services which may be charged for, and others will come closely behind. We cannot always manage to meet the timetables because of pressure of work and other external factors, but we are doing our best to work within the timeframe we announced. 4530

The idea of remerging Social Care with Health into a Department of Health and Wellbeing is something which is actively under consideration at this moment.

The President: Please continue, Mr Thomas. 4535 Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. Thank you very much, Chief Minister. Madam President, does the Chief Minister share my disappointment that some targets and

indicators remain underdeveloped on the excellent website that has been developed; and also that the schedule slipped according to the plan last year, so that the website does not yet 4540


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completely indicate the Government's priorities, values and targets and can give performance reports against those targets as clearly as it might do and I think you believe it should do?

With hindsight, does the Chief Minister also acknowledge the publication of a more encompassing national manifesto before the last General Election by all the Chief Minister candidates would have made the Scope of Government review better, in that the cuts, closures, 4545 layoffs, all that sort of thing, would have been less divisive?

One more, Madam President? The President: One more, yes. (Laughter) 4550 Mr Thomas: Madam President, particularly in the light of the recent FATCA signing, which is

excellent news, and this sitting’s consideration of an international convention on tax, can the Chief Minister comment on how negotiations with the USA went in respect of establishing the intergovernmental agreement which went alongside the amended Tax Information Exchange Agreement plans which were described this time last year; and, more generally, about tax and 4555 government revenue, which is becoming harder for the Government to get, given changes in tax regime here and also problems in achieving growth? Perhaps he will agree with me that now might be the time to have a tax or Government revenue commission to review tax legislation and policies across the board, as happened back in the late 1950s and 1960s, which kick started the wonderful growth of our society and nation experience of the last 50 or 60 years? 4560

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Thank you, Madam President. It is a little bit disappointing that we did not get the website up and running earlier than we 4565

had announced. A great deal of work has had to go into that, though, and it is up and running now. It is not complete, and I did say at the time it would be an incremental introduction of this website. It will take a little while before it is fully up and running and giving the current information that we want, but I hope Hon. Members recognise the direction of travel that we have moved on this. It is a revolutionary approach from the Isle of Man’s point of view. It is the 4570 first time we have attempted to do anything of this nature and give the public full up-to-date access in due course with the progress Government is making right across the piece. So yes, it is disappointing that it has taken that little bit longer to settle in, but it is a big project and one I hope will ultimately be of great benefit.

Whether everybody should have had a pre-election manifesto on priorities is debatable. It is 4575 up to Members to put their own election manifestos together.

As far as the US FATCA is concerned, those negotiations are now complete and we are waiting, really, for a date for the signing. We may well have signed before now, except, as you know, America is closed at the moment and we have no-one there to sign it with. So that has moved on apace and follows very closely the negotiation we have completed with the UK. 4580

Whether the time has come for a new tax commission, that is something which I think Treasury will obviously keep an eye on. We work very closely with our business community and our Income Tax Advisory Committee to monitor changes and where improvements might be made. I think the vitally important thing in this exercise, though, is not to send out any negative comments to the outside world that the Isle of Man is thinking of changing its tax system. That 4585 would be the height of madness, frankly, to start a public debate along those lines (A Member: Hear, hear.) and we have to be very clear about the need for maintaining confidence and belief that our system is stable and will be with us for a long time to come.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. 4590 Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President.


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Bearing in mind that the Chief Minister now prefers this format of delivery of his policy update, for him and his Council, to Tynwald Court, and has denied us the policy debates, albeit that they could have been tweaked to be up to modern expectation, how does he now propose 4595 to have input by Tynwald Court on policy change and policy development vis-à-vis – and I am using words that the Chief Minister used this morning, in terms of the health services and the Hospital, when he said a vast array of services… that we may have to charge for some services. What sprung to my mind was is he thinking now that, in looking at that and reviewing the policy of the delivery of the NHS, he is going to have to start looking and pricing up more UK referrals 4600 or going to a private trust?

All of these things are essential and important, aren’t they, Chief Minister? Shouldn't we be having a policy debate about where we go, how we go forward in the delivery of healthcare, in terms of do we stick to the core service of delivery of health and make a good Health Service, just the core one; or do we go privatised, do we turn into a trust, do we refer more patients off 4605 Island? The Chief Minister, Madam President, is tantalisingly teasing us with little titbits of his thinking, but not really backing it up with any thought process or how he plans to deliver and test this new policy development. So that is my question to him: how are we going to be able to develop and discuss, probe and test policy development and policy change and the delivery of vital services? 4610

I am rather intrigued when he said that he is going to make changes in the Council of Ministers as well. What is his thinking there? (Interjections) Is he thinking of changing the format, the number, the frequency with which they meet? I know he is not very fond, and never has been, of meeting and discussing things; so if he could give us an idea of how he thinks he is going to streamline that as well? 4615

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: The observation that the Hon. Member has, that I am not very keen on

meeting and discussing things – I seem to spend my entire life meeting and discussing, 4620 (Interjection by Mrs Cannell) and on the occasion that the Hon. Member comes into Tynwald it would be very nice to discuss anything she would like to discuss.

Mrs Cannell: There is no need for that. (A Member: Ooh!) (Laughter) 4625 A Member: Not a question. The Chief Minister: Madam President, on a more serious note, the point I am making at the

moment is to absolutely reinforce that the exercise we are currently going through to rebalance Government’s budget is a very challenging and a very difficult exercise, which causes all of us 4630 pain in our own ways as we find ways to recover from the loss of income.

The point I am trying to make is that no-one, either in this Chamber or Islandwide, should be under any illusion that once we have balanced the budget that is an end to it. We have some massive issues that we have to deal with in the future, and some of the problems we are finding, for example, with the Health Service currently are rooted in the fact that the National Health 4635 model that we have on the Isle of Man, as in the UK, is no longer fit for purpose. It has outgrown its original concept, it has outgrown its original funding mechanisms, and we have to find, collectively, a way forward which will maintain the high level of Health Service that we have on the Isle of Man – bearing in mind we have limited options in terms of increasing tax or external borrowing – to find a way that will structure health for the future, and particularly in the light of 4640 an ageing population.

I highlighted one point in my comments about the over-80s age group. In 20 years, the cost of that one age group alone is going to double from £25 million to £50 million. That is a huge amount we have to make, just for one age group. It needs a wholehearted Islandwide debate.


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This is not something that the Council of Ministers is going to come back with and give you all 4645 the answers. We need it and it will take a number of years. We will not get a response, a new structure in place, within a year or two. It will take a lot of thinking, a lot of debate. We will need outside advice on it. We will need to follow how the UK debate on its own health service develops, because we are, in many ways, integrated with the UK on these matters. I am highlighting that we must not sit back at the end of the rebalance exercise and say, ‘Right, that’s 4650 it now.’ The big work really starts at the end of that.

Alongside that you have how do we provide nursing care, how do we provide residential care, how do we secure pensions, how do we keep the economy going? There are a whole load of almost existential questions coming up as to whether the Island can survive in the long term with these new fiscal challenges which will be coming towards us. I am not saying we are going 4655 to dictate to anyone. We want full engagement of everyone on this, because I do not have the answers; I do not think anyone has the answers at the moment, but we must start asking the question.

The Hon. Member also makes reference to CoMin. I am looking at a few options at the moment, and once that work is complete I will be telling the Hon. Member. 4660

The President: The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. Just touching on what the Chief Minister just said, can he give more details on his comments 4665

on the structure of Government? Just generally, does he not agree that the 2010 structural changes really only shifted the silos from one area to the other; and does he agree that, basically, long term, we need centrally driven policies from the top down, and that should come from yourself? (Interjection)

4670 The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Yes, I do accept that entirely, Madam President. The restructuring of

Government, when it took place, I think was probably done with the best of intentions, but it did not go far enough and I think it basically just rearranged the deck chairs. It did not drill down 4675 into dealing with the scope of Government, and as I have said on many occasions, the key thing that we have got to change is the culture in Government. It does not matter what the structure looks like – if we still maintain the same old culture, the same old way of doing things, the same attitude to life, we will not survive. So I take the Hon. Member’s comments on board absolutely, and I think one of the exercises we are undertaking at the moment, not just in my office but also 4680 the Chief Secretary and around him, is looking at ways to strengthen that centre so that we can drive through change and centrally co-ordinate it in a way perhaps is not working as well as it could do at the moment.

The President: A further question, Mr Ronan. 4685 Mr Ronan: I thank the Chief Minister for that. That is very encouraging news and I hope you

see it through. Mr Thomas brought up about the 1950s, when they had a commission on tax, and I agree

that if it was a national debate and it went wider it would worry the wider world and the 4690 investors we are trying to attract here. But something which keeps getting overlooked here, in my eyes, is that the Isle of Man needs revenue. The Isle of Man has got to get revenue from somewhere. We have got this shortfall, we are trying to reduce the size of Government, and a glaring… glaringly obvious to me, something we have got to start thinking about is a rate review. I call it local taxation. Tax is tax. 1971 was the last time we addressed this. I honestly believe in 4695 this Court we are scared of it. We have got people sitting here in parishes and villages who are


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frightened to address the rate issue. It is unbalanced, it is unfair, (Several Members: Hear, hear.) and we need to address it. We need revenue from somewhere.

I brought up a Question in here, when I first came into this Hon. Court, regarding direct taxation and indirect taxation. Any economist will tell you that – 4700

The President: Will you please bring up a question now, sir? Mr Ronan: – if you have an economy which is reliant on indirect taxation – ours is over 70% –

that is very dangerous and that needs to be balanced up, whether it is national or local. Are you 4705 looking at that, sir?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I think one of the items I had in my original manifesto was to introduce, 4710

as a first effort at least, a rate revaluation across the Island – something we looked at a few years ago and, for various reasons, took no further.

As, I hope – which the Hon. Member is leading – the bones of a new local government structure start to evolve so we know what the responsibilities of the various authorities would be and what the cost base of those authorities would be, we are then in a position where we 4715 should be looking at how we deal with the rates to pay for it. There is a lot of work to be done in these areas at the moment and I would not want to prejudge what the outcome is, but I welcome the input from the Hon. Member, and indeed from any Member, that can take us forward on this, because the Member is absolutely right, we have to… (Interjection) I appreciate that, but the Hon. Member… It is partially in your hands as well. 4720

The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall. Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. The Chief Minister, in his Statement, touched on top slicing and the silo mentality of 4725

Government and the budgeting. Just for the avoidance of any doubt, can he just confirm, or is he hinting that we are now moving towards a priority-based budgeting model; and if we are, is he aware of and will he take on board the success of the priority-based budgeting model in some US states which have adopted this to get themselves out of very difficult and challenging financial situations? I think Washington State was one of those. 4730

If that is the case, it is very time-consuming and it is going to involve trawling through every inch of Government, because it is something quite different from standard budgeting.

The President: Chief Minister. 4735 The Chief Minister: I do not think we have the final shape decided on yet, Madam President,

but that is the direction of travel I think we were looking at, because the danger is if you just keep on slicing the same percentage across all Departments, some Departments are going to start suffering disproportionately in comparison to others and some priorities are going to get chopped out inadvertently while other less-priority areas are going to be funded. 4740

So it is to try and find a different mechanism approaching budgeting, bearing in mind how tight now the screws are turning on all Departments. We would appreciate, I am sure, your observations on priority-based budgeting and any advice you have on that. We would be very happy to talk to you about that, and please come and help us; we would be grateful.

4745 The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly. Mr Skelly: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.


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Overall, I have to say I welcome the Statement – quite positive on the whole. A couple of points, if I may. 4750

Does the Chief Minister still recognise we have a two-speed economy? We have growth in the economy – which is strong and positive, almost 4% – but there is a local economy and there is lots of industry that is still struggling.

Picking up on his comment that the MEA’s debt continues to mount, he has got a strong message there about the merger of the MEA and WASA. Can I ask him is he confident the 4755 business model will trade out of this debt?

My second point: I would also like to ask him about the Post Office corporatisation. As we are moving closer to that, does he believe there will be new revenue opportunities for the Post Office, and in particular perhaps a ‘Manx National Savings Bond’, which might help support the viability of our sub-post offices? 4760

Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. The President: Chief Minister. 4765 The Chief Minister: Certainly I agree entirely with the Hon. Member about the two-speed

economy and I have referred to it many times over the last few years. It is something that causes me great concern, because whilst the external-facing economy is still growing quite strongly, there are undoubtedly internal problems and we have to do our best to try and assist areas such as retail. Although the construction industry seems to be stabilising a little bit, it is stabilising at a 4770 much lower level than it was a few years ago and we need to find ways to get that to grow; and of course our hospitality industry is a very important one, as well as many other services. So we have to do our best to try and stimulate the local economy.

As far as the MEA and WASA are concerned, the business plan is currently being put together, discussions are taking place between the Business Change Group and the two 4775 authorities and we will move towards a final business plan very shortly, which will indicate whether it will work or not. But again, as part of the need to streamline Government – to bring, in this case, a utilities board together – it does seem a logical way of travelling, if we can make it work.

On corporatisation of the Post Office, the Hon. Member asks whether there will be new 4780 opportunities. The whole purpose of corporatisation in the first place is actually to throw up new opportunities. If there are not likely to be any, there is not much point in corporatisation in the first place. Whether, in fact, a Manx National Savings Bond or bank, whatever, could come out of that remains to be seen, but undoubtedly we need to be clear what our long-term views are on the continuation of the Post Office network on the Isle of Man and be very clear with it. 4785

The President: The Hon. Mr Speaker. The Speaker: Madam President, my question relates not to the content of the Chief

Minister’s address, which I thought was very good and very positive and will have been received, 4790 I think, very positively by the business community and I think does demonstrate that, as far as international action on the international stage goes, the Isle of Man has certainly got its act together now.

My question really is to ask the Chief Minister if he will reflect further, or consider further, on the method of communicating with Tynwald what was in that message? One or two Hon. 4795 Members have referred, and Mrs Cannell has certainly referred to the previous format of policy debates. Can I ask the Chief Minister to reflect that, whatever the shortcomings of the previous format, where over the years we were either invited to endorse the principles, or approve, or endorse as a general approach Government’s overall policy – the response to which was more often than not set-piece speeches that were not a debate at all, unlike actually, albeit it was 4800 questioning, I think the Chief Minister… would he agree that we have had some very good


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contributions from the floor this afternoon, in terms of policy ideas and policy statements and what individual priorities are?

Does he not therefore think that, whatever the limitations previously of the format, it was an opportunity to gauge the political temperature of Tynwald, if I could put it that way? It did gauge 4805 the parliamentary mood on what political priorities were, as indeed this afternoon has done, especially of Members’ views outside their own political Government responsibilities and own Departments. Was it not an opportunity as well to build political consensus within Tynwald, these debates with all their flaws?

Therefore, how does he propose to build greater political consensus within Tynwald from 4810 parliamentarians behind his programme, rather than from Members of Tynwald acting solely in their capacities as Members of Departments, which he will be well familiar with?

The President: Chief Minister. 4815 The Chief Minister: That is a very good contribution, Madam President. I have to say in the few minutes we have been questioning on this one I have heard more

positive contributions than I have in the entire debate that we have had in the past on the Government Plan, which went on for days and said absolutely nothing at all at the end of it.

I am a great believer – as Hon. Members know, although some may not accept – in consensus 4820 and trying to get Government working together. The time ahead in particular, as I have tried to emphasise, not in any threatening way, but there are going to be challenges ahead of a level that we have not seen for a great many years, if ever in recent times. Therefore it is more important than ever that Government works together to try and find common solutions to this, rather than the confrontational approach we have had over the last 12 months or so. So 4825 anything that we can do to improve that, I am more than willing to talk to you.

The annual Statement, Madam President, was an attempt to break away from that failed format that we had on the Government Plan, which Mr Speaker absolutely rightly said simply ended up with a series of set speeches, which frankly very few people ever listened to and certainly there was very little outcome at the end of it, but it went on for the best part of a day 4830 in the process.

If we can find another way of continuing a policy debate but in a more focused way, then I am more than happy to do it. This was an experiment to break from the past. It seemed to be quite well received last year. We have brought it back this year, but I am absolutely wide open to further discussions as to how we can improve it for the future. I am not in any way trying to shut 4835 down debate; quite the opposite in fact, but I would like that debate to be constructive and something we can actually go away with some positive thoughts on at the end of the day.

In response to some of the comments which were made, I am very happy to take this back and we will have a look at it for next year and see if there is a better way of coming forward to achieve that, but what I do not want to do is just fall back on the old model of the annual plan, 4840 which frankly was totally worthless in my mind.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. 4845 I would like to thank the Chief Minister for his speech, of which I thought the content was

excellent. I think there is very little that we can all disagree on in that speech, really, on the inspirations

of where we need to be going, but there is very little detail. They say talk is cheap – that is unless you get hit with roaming charges – but will the Chief Minister set clear target dates so we all 4850 know not only where we are going, but also, more importantly, when we are going to the promised land?

Thank you.


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The President: Chief Minister. 4855 The Chief Minister: I do not think we are quite at the promised land just yet, but we are

doing our best. Yes, I take the Hon. Member’s view that it was not… The Statement has never been intended

to be a detailed, itemised approach to everything. It would be five times as long if we were to go into every detail, but targeting is very important. It is something we are trying to refine within 4860 Council and across Departments. I have to be quite honest and say there is more work to be done on that at the moment, but the one thing I can promise Hon. Members, as long as Members are prepared to respond positively to it, is to organise more awaydays for Tynwald Members completely to discuss particular items, to talk about timetables, talk about targets and to have a more constructive input into policy development at its early stages, rather than simply 4865 be receiving the completed works when Council has finished. I think that is very important. It is going to be more important in the time ahead and I would welcome any support and ideas from Members to that end.

The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall. 4870 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. Just following on from Mr Speaker’s comment about communication and involving Members,

would the Chief Minister agree that one thing that is, I think, of vital importance moving forward is that, as Chief Minister and the head of the Government, it is vital that he ensures that he gives 4875 all Members of this Court the ability to explain all of the tough decisions that will very likely have to be taken moving forward, so that when our constituents come to us with all of the questions, we actually are armed with, if not all, a lot of the answers to explain, because sometimes things get blown out because obviously we do not have all of the information. I think that is an important point. He touched on awaydays. That is one method of, I think, being able to involve 4880 Members and to arm them with that ability to explain the tough decisions, because as the decisions become more and more tough, the more important it becomes to be able to explain all of those to our constituents.

The President: Chief Minister. 4885 The Chief Minister: Madam President, the one thing I believe passionately in is

communication and I think it is – and I have said it on a number of occasions – something we failed miserably on, certainly in the previous Court, where we did have difficult decisions to take and perhaps we did not explain ourselves as clearly as we might have to each other, as well as to 4890 the wider public. I can give the Member the absolute commitment that we will do our very best to improve on that.

We do not have all the answers. We need the input of everybody, frankly, and indeed probably further advice from outside on some of these areas. It is new territory for us all sometimes to be looking for these solutions. We need to get the best advice, the best input, 4895 both politically and professionally, to get answers.

I would make one plea to all Members once again in the time ahead, which is going to be challenging – it is going to be difficult for us to accept some of the changes we might have to swallow; as the Hon. Member says, it is going to be difficult to explain some of those changes to the public – to put aside some of the partisan behaviour that has taken place over the last 12 4900 months and work together to try and find a solution for the betterment of the Isle of Man and the people of the Isle of Man. Wasting so much time in some of the negativity that we have had to deal with is not helpful. It does not take us forward and it certainly does not help protect the Isle of Man against some of the problems we are going to face further down the road.

4905


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The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. It is just my last question, really – a couple of

questions. Would the Chief Minister agree with me that the best policy is the policy that is developed 4910

bottom-up – not top-down, which is assumed to be dictatorship – and that he will be in a better position if we can get to a situation where the policy is being developed at grass-root level and being worked up so that it can happen at top level? (A Member: Hear, hear.)

Further, will he also give a commitment… He has said it in a lot of places, he has made mention to it, but I have yet to see anything tangible come from it. Will he make greater efforts 4915 to involve the third sector in proper working formal partnerships to take on and deliver those services which might be for the chop because of our restricted finances in terms of trying to deliver all things to all people? Will he further develop that and will he take cognisance of the fact that it is already happening with a charity that I am involved with, and that hopefully that will signal the flagship for it to happen with other charities where they will feel encouraged to do 4920 it; and if he will create the right atmosphere to make that flourish, because that will be very helpful and very beneficial to both Government and the people?

The President: Chief Minister. 4925 The Chief Minister: Madam President, I have made my commitment to working with the

third sector very clear for from day one. I think they have a very important role to play and I will give it my 100% support in whatever way I can.

I am delighted that the Hon. Member now has decided to engage with Government through the third sector and will be working with the health services and the Minister to develop her 4930 own charity, and I am sure it will be widely welcomed.

But this co-operation, working together, works two ways. It means co-operation on both sides and it means a genuine desire to work together for a common good, and if we can achieve that I would be very supportive, Madam President.

4935 The President: If there are no further questions, Hon. Members, that concludes Item 3. I think we will now take a break and we will resume in this Chamber at ten minutes to six.

The Court adjourned at 5.20 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.50 p.m.

4. PAC Report on the Commercialisation of the TT – Statement by the Minister for the Treasury

Treasury Response to the Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts Report on the Commercialisation of the TT: Contract negotiations and Contract Management 2005 to 2010. [PP No 0078/13 and GD No 0035/13 previously circulated and debated in July 2013 Tynwald.] The President: Please be seated Hon. Members. We turn now to Item 4 and I call on the Treasury Minister to make a Statement. 4940 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. At the July sitting of Tynwald, I gave an undertaking to report back to this Hon. Court in

relation to two actions arising from the Public Accounts Committee Report on the TT commercialisation contract – specifically, what additional enforcement mechanisms could be put in place to ensure that Departments and Boards comply with any terms and conditions 4945


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associated with FD8 waiver requests; and furthermore, to review what more could be done to ensure best practice in procurement undertaken by Departments, Boards and Offices.

As I have mentioned previously at the July sitting of Tynwald, since the initial review of this contract by the Internal Audit Division in 2010, Treasury has already introduced improvements to the FD8 waiver process. The lead on managing this process is now vested with the 4950 Procurement Services team within Treasury, who proactively manage compliance across Government.

As I am sure many Ministers and departmental Members present today can testify, Treasury now closely monitors the terms and conditions associated with all FD8 waiver requests, with Departments routinely being required to report back to Treasury with regard to their 4955 compliance. It is also a fact that, much to the disappointment of some Departments, their request for a waiver of the competitive tender requirements is not always supported, resulting in healthy competition and transparency in the procurement process.

I am therefore content that the current enforcement mechanisms in place are not only a vast improvement on those that were in place in 2005, when the TT commercialisation contract 4960 came into effect, but are also currently fit for purpose. I am also conscious that we do not become complacent and will ensure that the annual performance review of such activity is robustly scrutinised.

Turning to the matter of ensuring best practice in procurement, I can advise Hon. Members that, back in July this year, the Council of Ministers gave its support to a number of amendments 4965 to the financial regulations brought forward by the Treasury in order to improve procurement practice. These amendments focus upon forward planning of procurement activity by Departments, the development of detailed specifications before the commencement of a tender exercise, and they also clarify the involvement of the Procurement Services team in the delivery of tenders for capital-funded schemes. 4970

In addition, as of November this year, it is envisaged that Procurement Services and colleagues from the Attorney General’s Chambers will introduce a short training course to help officers in the production of tender specifications, which is probably one of the more challenging and critical elements of the tender process.

I am sure that Hon. Members will agree that the review of procurement preactive, along with 4975 all Government processes and practices, should be an ongoing activity in order to ensure that they are both efficient and effective. Against this background, and with the agreement of the Council of Ministers, Treasury undertook a consultation exercise with all Departments during the summer recess regarding the procurement practice. Consequently, a number of suggestions for improvement have been proposed and these, together with any future suggestions, will be 4980 submitted to the newly formed Treasury Procurement Committee, under the chairmanship of my hon. colleague and Treasury Member, Mr Downie MLC, for further consideration.

To conclude, I am currently content that the FD8 process is fit for purpose and that measures are being put in place to improve Government’s procurement practices. Furthermore, through the Treasury Procurement Committee, there is now a mechanism to ensure that procurement 4985 practice can be continually reviewed and scrutinised to ensure that we do not become complacent and that best practice prevails.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: Does any Member wish to put a question? If not, we will move on. 4990

Procedural

The President: Hon. Members, you will be aware that consideration of Items on the Supplementary Order Paper are contingent on acceptance or otherwise of Items 25 and 32 on


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this Order Paper. If those two Items are accepted, we need to take consequential actions in order to have in place the documents for the Supplementary Order Paper consideration.

In order to ensure best use of Members’ time and to avoid potential delay in the preparation 4995 of those papers, I suggest that, with the Court's approval, we consider those two Items now. Is that agreed Hon. Members?

Members: Agreed.

25. Regulation of Care Bill 2012 –

Motion carried The Minister for Social Care to move:

That in pursuance of Tynwald Standing Order 10.5 and in order to give effect to the Regulation of Care Bill 2012, the following amendments are necessary: 1. In clause 57(1)(d) after ‘about’ insert ‘, and be accompanied by the prescribed documents relating to,’. 2. For clause 57(2) substitute— ‘(2) If the application is for provider registration and the applicant is a body corporate— (a) the body corporate must identify an individual (“the nominee”) whom it proposes as care service’s responsible person; and (b) the application must include, or be accompanied by, the prescribed documents or information about the nominee.’ The President: In that case, I call on the Minister for Social Care to move Item 25 in relation 5000

to the Regulation of Care Bill. The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft, has declared an interest and will absent herself. The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. In pursuance of Tynwald Standing Order 10.5 and in order to give effect to the Regulation of 5005

Care Bill 2012, the motion before Hon. Members today seeks a small amendment to the Regulation of Care Bill 2012, which was passed by the branches in February 2013.

The amendment will make provision for the Department to prescribe documents to accompany all applications for registrations under the Regulation of Care Bill. The Regulation of Care Bill already includes provision for the Department to prescribe documents to accompany an 5010 application or provide a registration. This amendment is necessary to replicate these provisions. It will allow the Department to also prescribe documents to accompany an application for manager registration and, if the application is a body corporate, their nominee.

Since the Regulation of Care Bill was initially drafted, there have been revisions to the process for criminal record checks, which now result in a certificate only being issued to an 5015 individual; rather than, as previously, both the employee and the individual.

The Department can only grant registration if satisfied that certain criteria are met, as stated in section 59(3) of the Bill. Criminal convictions are extremely important and not being able to require a manager – or, if the applicant is a body corporate, their nominee – to produce their certificate means the Department cannot fulfil its duty under that part. 5020

The above amendment is therefore necessary to allow the Department to prescribe in regulations that a criminal convictions certificate needs to accompany all applications for registration.

I hope, Madam President, Hon. Members will be able to support the motion. 5025


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The President: Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 5030 The President: If there is no comment, Hon. Members, the motion before the Court is set out

at Item 25 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

32. Income Tax Act 1970 – Taxes (International Arrangements) Order 2013 approved

The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Taxes (International Arrangements) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0315/13] The President: We turn now to Item 32 and I call on the Treasury Minister to move. 5035 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. The world of international tax is moving rapidly, and as international standards change the

Island must adapt in order to continue moving forward. At the beginning of this year, David Cameron made taxation and transparency two of the

cornerstones of his G8 agenda. 5040 The Isle of Man has always been involved in developing and shaping international standards

in exchange of information. As the international standards develop, so must we. In June this year, the Chief Minister wrote to David Cameron, confirming the Island’s position

on tax information exchange and formalised the Island's commitment to join the Multilateral Convention on Mutual Administrative Assistance in Tax Matters. This Convention was developed 5045 by the OECD and the Council of Europe. It regulates the exchange of information between parties to the Convention. Joining the Convention is a logical step for the Island, given that we have led the way in signing Tax Information Exchange Agreements (TIEAs) around the world. Last month, I signed the Island’s 41st such agreement. This Order introduces new legislation which will enable the Island to give effect to the Convention. 5050

I would now like to go through the Order, which is a Temporary Taxation Order (TTO), in more detail. This Order makes a number of amendments to the Income Tax Act 1970.

Article 3 introduces a new part 9 into the Income Tax Act 1970. This brings together the current legislation to improve international agreements from section 15 of the Income Tax Act 2003 and from section 54 of this Act. It also widens the scope of the legislation to ensure that an 5055 Order requiring Tynwald approval can give effect to the Convention on Mutual Administrative Assistance in Tax Matters and also to FATCA-type arrangements.

Article 4 extends the current section 105 of the Act that allows for the appointment of the Assessor of Income Tax in order to allow for the appointment of authorised officers, who will be civil servants with appropriate experience and qualifications and who will be able to perform 5060 certain functions under the Act.

Article 5 introduces a new part 13 into the Act in respect of inspection and document powers. Currently, within the Income Tax Acts, there are no powers regarding inspection of business premises, business assets… [Inaudible] and this part will introduce into Income Tax legislation the requirements which have been in both National Insurance and VAT legislation for 5065 many years.


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This legislation will enable the Assessor to meet various obligations under international agreements and under the Convention. It will allow an authorised officer to enter the business premises of a person to examine their tax position if it is considered reasonably necessary. This can only be done if the occupier of the business consents, if the authorised officer has given the 5070 occupier at least seven days’ notice, or if the entry has been approved by the High Bailiff. The authorised officer may inspect, remove or copy documents, whether in electronic format or not.

Within this part, there are various penalties for failing to comply and also an appeal mechanism to the Income Tax Commissioner.

Article 9 introduces a requirement for an insurer to provide the Assessor with information 5075 regarding Isle of Man residents who hold policies. I can confirm that the insurance sector in the Island has been consulted and is in favour of this measure.

Finally, article 9 also amends the Assessor's powers to obtain documents under section 105C to 105O. This is the legislation that currently allows the Assessor to obtain documents in order to exchange information with TIEA partners under an agreement. The amendments will ensure 5080 that information that is not contained within a document and which is foreseeably relevant to the period under investigation can also be supplied. These amendments are also applied to all of the current international agreements.

Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 5085 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. 5090 When the Income Tax Act 1970 first came in, Income Tax was, I quote, ‘payable at a rate

determined by Tynwald resolution.’ The Temporary Taxation Order enabling power was introduced by section 15 of the Income

Tax Act 1995, I believe, and that allowed Treasury to amend and introduce Income Tax primary legislation quickly – usually a very good thing, I am sure – although the Order, of course, must be 5095 confirmed within an Income Tax Act within 12 months; otherwise it lapses.

Initially, rates of tax were fixed in Orders primarily, but the usage of Temporary Taxation Orders has been increased. I believe there were three in 1999, one in 2000, one in 2002, one in 2004, one in 2005; but then three in 2006, nine in 2008, three again in 2009, five in 2010, and six in 2012. My point is that they have increased and also, obviously, they have extended beyond 5100 merely setting rates of tax; for instance, to approve international agreements, as we have heard, and even more recently, to change tax powers.

I merely want to make two points at this point, Madam President. The first is that mistakes have been made in the past and could be made again. I understand that this Order has been very thoroughly scrutinised by a legislative draftsman and by the Assessor and officers within the 5105 Income Tax Division, and approved by Treasury and the Council of Ministers; but it has not yet been subject to the full scrutiny of primary legislation or formal consultation. Is that appropriate when we are talking about what appears to be primary legislation which confers formidable powers on Isle of Man Government officials to obtain information and obtain and impose significant penalties? 5110

I am assured that this Order creates similar powers to those already available under schedule 36 of the UK Finance Act 2008 and that both Jersey and Guernsey already have powers of entry – and we hear that National Insurance and Social Security regimes in the Isle of Man also already have similar powers – but no real detail has been provided to me about these similarities or to other Members of parliament, perhaps regular ‘Joe Soap’ Members of parliament. That is the 5115 first point I want to make.

The second point is a question, Madam President: is it appropriate to be developing such tax legislation in this way? Is this perhaps something else that the Tax Commission we discussed


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with the Chief Minister can consider – not in any way to damage the reputation of the Isle of Man with anybody; rather to enhance it and enhance the reputation of this parliament for doing 5120 its job properly? Parliament can merely vote for or against this Order as presented; it cannot amend any proposed clause in any way. This would be different if we were considering an Income Tax Bill. When we do consider the Income Tax Bill, which will be brought to us eventually, in this case, our primary legislation will already have been amended, I understand, and the international convention will already have been assigned on the back of this 5125 amendment.

I am not raising any serious difficulties – this is not for broadcast anywhere; I am just laying down… (Laughter and interjections) in the same way that the Speaker talked about enhancing the Government's priorities – question time to a debate. I am just saying that we need to consider at some point whether or not Temporary Taxation Orders are being used now for more 5130 than perhaps they should be used going forward.

Thank you very much, Madam President. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 5135 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am glad to see that there is still a judicial process, as far as this

Order is concerned – if people do not want to give the information, you have got to go to the High Bailiff – and I am glad that, in the opening remarks, he did raise that.

It is interesting that he talks about international arrangements, and of course once again we see ourselves with a Taxation Order, but it would be interesting to know from the Minister what 5140 exactly is going to happen about the issues like Delaware and the likes of other jurisdictions which are far bigger, far more involved with the black and bad process as far as financial business is concerned throughout the world.

I am concerned that the points that were raised by the Member for West Douglas… We have allied ourselves with some rather strange Taxation Orders, where the only people who seem to 5145 be paying tax in this country now are the working people, with the way we have created a tax system that… It is alright the Chief Minister saying ‘not true’. I believe that the tax system and some of these Temporary Taxation Orders have had as much effect, as far as the problems that we have got as far as Government income is concerned, as the VAT, I suggest, and I think that will be something that needs to be looked at. 5150

It has gone through the process, as far as this Order is concerned, and I think one has got to allow it to go through, but I am concerned and I was glad to see, when we had the amount of input from the Chief Minister, from his speech before, that the situation was that he is going to be looking more at the strategic policy structure, as far as how his Government is going to operate in the future; because I do feel, as a Member of the legislature, of this Court, that… I 5155 worry sometimes, with these agreements, that we do not give sufficient resources for us to be taking on, when we are talking on an international stage, to make sure that we are not allowing ourselves slow ticking bombs later on for future generations as far as some of these Orders are concerned.

So I do think it is important that… there were some new initiatives and I do feel that this Item 5160 does worry me, just like the situation when we hear about issues like China and our trade delegation. I hope we do not end up with a situation where we agree to these in good faith and find out that we are going to be hostage to fortune in the future.

The President: The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan. 5165 Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. Regarding the Temporary Taxation Orders, I suppose we have got to be careful we are not

operating a system of government by executive order. I would just like to ask the Treasury Minister a couple of questions. 5170


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Where did the model for the Order come from – was it the UK, US, or was it devised locally? Are provisions for such as these already embodied in UK tax law? Who, if anyone, has scrutinised it with a view to comparing it with comparable legislation in

other comparable jurisdictions and other relevant legislation areas, such as data protection and human rights? 5175

Thank you. The President: The Minister to reply. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 5180 There are a couple of themes running through here and, with respect, I feel that they are

based on a misunderstanding. Temporary Taxation Orders are put in place for us to fulfil our obligations under TIEAs and

DTAs that we have entered into. They have never been used to set rates of tax. Rates of tax are set as part of the Budget and they are voted on by Members as part of the Supplementary Order 5185 Paper. I am sure that Hon. Members will reflect upon that and they will remember it.

The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas, gave a very accurate précis of the legislation which has led us to where we are today, and I have got no difficulty with that. His issue is, in addition to the increase in the numbers of TTOs, which really does relate to the increasing numbers of TIEAs and DTAs that we have signed, and I did say we have signed 41 up 5190 to now and there are others in the process as well. He said there has been no consultation, but the whole process has been well flagged up. Industry has been kept in the picture and they have been supportive of the steps that Government has been taking to meet our international obligations. Also, there was a debate earlier this year in this Hon. Court about taxation policy, and international representation and international standards were part of that debate. 5195

The Hon. Member for Onchan made a very good point about Delaware. The American government is a signatory to the Convention, although we have to recognise that the American government – the federal government – cannot impose its will on the States, and that is something that we have to recognise. Nevertheless, the federal government has shown an intent by signing the Multilateral Convention. 5200

The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan, did ask whether this legislation was human rights compliant, and I can confirm that, in my opinion and based upon the advice that I have received, it is.

So, in summary, this is the first stage of two Items which I would like the Hon. Court to approve today, which will enable the Isle of Man Government to meet its international 5205 obligations and to confirm once again we do recognise those obligations and we will do our best to meet them.

With that, Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. The President: The motion before the Court is that the Taxes (International Arrangements) 5210

Order 2013 be approved. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Bill for signature – Regulation of Care Bill 2012

The President: Hon. Members, following your agreement to the amendment of the

Regulation of Care Bill 2012, it is now circulating for signature. 5215


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5. Extension to Neonatal Unit, Noble’s Hospital – Expenditure approved

The Minister for Health to move:

That Tynwald approves of the Department of Health incurring expenditure not exceeding £3,520,000 to construct an extension to provide Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU) accommodation at Noble’s Hospital, Braddan. [Ref: Scheme Code G19-059 Item 10 ‘Extension to Neonatal Unit, Noble’s Hospital - Construction’ under the heading ‘Health’ on page 26 of the Isle of Man Budget 2013-14 and as described in the Estimate of Capital Payments 2013-14 to 2017-18 on page 68 of the Isle of Man Budget 2013-14.] The President: We revert to our Order Paper in the ordinary order, so we turn to Item 5 and I

call on the Minister for Health to move. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President. The purpose of this motion is to seek the approval of this Hon. Court for expenditure not 5220

exceeding £3,520,000 for the construction of a new neonatal unit in the grounds of Noble’s Hospital.

Hon. Members will appreciate the need to ensure that the Hospital facilities for premature babies comply with the current British Association of Perinatal Medicine (BAPM) guidelines, revised in 2007, in order for us to continue to provide high-quality, safe and effective neonatal 5225 care on the Island.

Since the new Hospital design, the increase in neonates has risen, as has the birth rate on the Island. There is also an increasing trend in the number of older women delivering babies, often with complex conditions. The number of neonates being born to mothers who are either drug or alcohol-affected – indeed, both dependants – is also increasing. In the longer term, this means 5230 neonates stay on the Island in the unit. The improvement and availability of infertility treatment often leads to multiple births and pre-term delivery. Therefore, the actual environment in the current facility is no longer sustainable for the number and types of neonates that the unit sees today.

At present, there is no provision for any privacy within the current design layout of the 5235 neonatal unit. The area does not meet the needs of the patient group and, in summary, it has inadequate cot space; no dedicated facilities for the care of terminally ill babies; no dedicated facilities for the resuscitation of babies; inadequate heating and ventilation, due to no physical separation between intensive care and special care, which have clearly defined requirements; isolation facilities are outwith the main care area; inadequate storage of equipment; overnight 5240 accommodation for parents learning to care for their babies does not meet necessary requirements; and facilities for disabled families are not available.

The Department is committed to an ongoing review of Hospital services. In this respect, it has been recognised that the existing neonatal unit does not comply with revised guidelines and that a new facility is essential. 5245

Following a review of a considerable number of option appraisals, it has been decided to extend the first-floor maternity unit, this being the most appropriate in terms of location, area and size for the neonatal unit premises. Detailed discussions have taken place with the medical, nursing and management team on the desire for a proposed new neonatal unit, and building regulations approval has subsequently been secured. 5250

The new facility will provide enhanced accommodation for the medical and nursing team caring for babies before they are due, including provision for an increased space for caring for babies requiring intensive and high-degree, high-dependency care; an appropriate resuscitation


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room, waiting area and facilities for parents to utilise prior to their baby being discharged from hospital. 5255

This facility will comply with current British Association of Perinatal Medicine guidelines by providing four special care nursing bays, four intensive care nursing bays, one isolation room, a staff observation base, a resuscitation and transitional care room, a laboratory and testing room, two parents’ overnight stay rooms with en-suite facilities, a milk kitchen, a cleaning utility, a dirty utility and disposal, a laundry room, a staff room, a staff changing facility, a parent and 5260 visitor sitting room, general office accommodation, an equipment store, a waiting and visitor toilet, and a cleaners’ store.

Not expanding the unit to comply with the guidelines would require the number of cots being reduced from nine to four, which would result in increased patient referrals to England, which would cost approximately £600,000 a year in revenue costs that is currently not budgeted for. 5265 Notwithstanding the additional revenue burden the Department would incur in referring patients to England, we should also avoid babies who should be born on the Isle of Man being born in England, and I believe we have an obligation to those parents and babies to ensure that, wherever possible, they are born on Manx soil.

The cost of the unit is in accordance with the Budget contained within the Pink Book for 2014 5270 that this Hon. Court approved in February of this year.

The enabling works, which were approved as part of the Budget in February 2013 and which consisted of the diversion of services and substructure work, were completed during the summer months. Work on the superstructure is scheduled to commence, subject to Tynwald approval, in November, and will be completed in February 2015. 5275

If Tynwald approves this motion tonight, this project will provide much-needed work to local building companies. In terms of contract allocation, the main contract would be awarded to Auldyn Construction, a Manx company which has carried out many projects for the Manx Government over the last 15 years and has a strong commitment to ensuring a sustainable Manx construction industry by maximising their usage of local suppliers and subcontractors wherever 5280 possible. With regard to mechanical work, this will be undertaken by Quiggin and Cubbon, a Douglas-based company; and the electrical installation will be undertaken by Gough Electrical, a Ramsey-based company.

My officers are currently in discussions with the contractors to avoid the need to appoint an off-Island company to install the medical gas pipework and instead to utilise the skills of hospital 5285 engineers who have the qualifications for this type of work. Every effort has been made to ensure that as much of the cost of this scheme will be retained in the Manx economy at a much-needed time for our construction industry.

In short, the new facility will enable the maternity unit at Noble’s Hospital to provide a much-improved service to neonatal babies who are at an extremely vulnerable time in their lives, and 5290 for parents and families as well. To meet the complex needs of neonates, this facility will reduce risk to a minimum; provide a safe and secure environment; enable monitoring and treatment and observation; maintain privacy and dignity; provide adequate visitor and staff facilities; prevent a reduction in existing services in order to comply with the British Association of Perinatal Medicine guidelines, which will avoid additional revenue cost as a consequence of 5295 referrals to England, which is estimated to be in the region of £600,000 per annum. It will also ensure, wherever possible, babies that should be on Manx soil are born on Manx soil and the families of those babies are supported; and give those who are probably the most vulnerable, at the most vulnerable time of their lives, the best possible start to life we can.

Madam President, I beg to move. 5300 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Butt. Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 5305


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The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. I am fully supportive of the scheme and will be voting for. I just wonder whether or not the increase in size… will that necessitate an increase in 5310

revenue costs in the operation; or is the Minister confident that the existing number of staff in this specialist area will be able to cope in the new unit?

The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk. 5315 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. I took an opportunity, some nearly four or five weeks ago, to visit the Hospital and this is one

of the areas that I came upon. I must give congratulations to the staff up there, who are working in an environment which is not conducive to good working practice, I suppose.

I welcome the initiative that has come forward here today. I took an opportunity at the time, 5320 with others who were there – who were not politicians, but we had some people from another jurisdiction over and we took the opportunity to visit the children's ward and to see where the young people come into this life and the resources they do need and the staff that do need that support – and I noticed there are a couple of the members here today within the Chamber.

I applaud the staff and, hopefully, the Minister would echo the thoughts that go back from all 5325 of us there, that we need to remember that when young people come into life we need to protect them as much as we can. And I see this today – by allowing the funds to go forward to do this, we will give the security to those young families who need it at a time in life when life is being born.

5330 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. I too will be supporting this proposal, but I would just like to fire a shot across all Ministers’

bows, really: no presentation to Members; no costings for Members. 5335 Let’s take away the fact that this is for young babies. This is a capital project of £3,520,000.

Hopefully, it will pay for itself within six years of payback, but I do think that… Obviously, we are all going to support it – our young people of the future need this sort of service – but we have to make sure that we are getting value for money for the taxpayer here. The capital reserves are precious, they are getting blooming low, and I think we should really have had a full briefing on 5340 it, where we could have had more detailed knowledge just to be reassured that we are not just voting for this because we want to see proper facilities for premature babies.

So, yes, I will be supporting it. I have done a little bit of research myself, but I do think that Ministers, when they come wanting £3½ million, should really give Hon. Members a little bit more. 5345

Thank you. Mrs Cannell: Well said. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Singer. 5350 Mr Singer: Thank you. I will be supporting it also, Madam President, but could the Minister possibly answer this

point: the information says the Department is required to meet the BAPM European Union standards – how is that linked? Is that linked actually to a population of 85,000, or is there some 5355 other link that says that this number of beds is needed?


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Mr Henderson: Intensive care. The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft. 5360 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I too will be supporting this motion. I have seen round that particular area and it definitely

does need work doing to it. I do share Mr Quayle’s comments about lack of information being given to us, particularly the 5365

costings of it, but I will still be supporting it because it is necessary. I am just registering my disappointment on the lack of information.

However, I would just like the Minister, if he can, to confirm how future-proof is this? Is there any leeway in this, in the design, that is going to allow for further usage? Is there any capacity built into this – I suppose is what I am asking – for the future; or are we likely to have to extend 5370 it again?

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President. 5375 I took the opportunity, in actual fact, probably at the end of last year, to go round the

maternity unit, because the proposal was for this extension; and, as chairman of the Capital Projects Unit, I thought it was right that I should go round.

I am very supportive of the extension for the neonates because, as the Minister has already said, if we do not comply with these new standards we will be reduced to four and it will cost an 5380 additional £600,000; and, as Mr Quayle said, the payback is in six years’ time.

The little bit of information I have on the construction and the professional fees – because that is something which is normally mentioned in this Hon. Court… The professional fees were 10.71%, the total was £365,000, the normal fee scale for all the disciplines would have been 17.45%; so really, we got a discount of 39% off the scales. 5385

This particular project was quite complex. In actual fact, it had a category 4 – the highest being a category 5 – for complexity, because as the Minister has mentioned, there were a lot of services which had to be moved, and that was the enabling works for the neonatal unit to be constructed.

I hope everybody in this Hon. Court – and I am positive they will – will support the motion 5390 which is on the Order Paper.

The President: The Minister to reply. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 5395 I would like to thank Hon. Members for indicating their support for this vital project. A couple of Members have raised the issue of a presentation, Hon. Members. Of course, we

did give an indication, early in the summer when we came forward for the enabling works, what was entitled; and obviously, through Capital Projects, Mr Braidwood has been very closely involved. 5400

Mr Quayle mentions the financial payback. You do not have to be very bright to work out that this is something essential that we have to do. It is not just to do with money, however; it is to do with the quality of care that we expect, our population expects, for the most vulnerable at the most vulnerable time of their lives.

So yes, maybe we could have given you a presentation. Not many people have come and 5405 asked me for further information, apart for the information that we provided. However, we have very dedicated staff working in this area who have been working under extreme pressure.

The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft, asked have we future-proofed this. We have to bear in mind that the last neonatal unit was designed maybe more than 15 years ago. Times have


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moved on significantly since then and we have to comply with best and practice, and the general 5410 public expects that. We have to increase the size available for cots; therefore we have had to expand the unit in the best way we can. We have had to move other people around and it has been a bit disruptive to the Hospital, but that will be minimised.

In conclusion, I would like to say I am very encouraged by the amount of support Hon. Members have indicated today. We have to do this. Financially it makes sense, but we must not 5415 just think of finance at times; we have to think about the level of care we give these special young people.

I am very proud of the staff Mr Quirk has referred to. This unit is led by Linda Radcliffe and Paul McCann, who are with us today, and they take their responsibilities extremely seriously, and I am glad and I am hopeful that we will get the unanimous support of the Court tonight. 5420

There was one point that was raised about… the BAPM is a standard linked to the size of the population. The British Association of Perinatal Medicine is a body of professionals that determines the minimum standard required for safety regulations. That changed in 2007. We are only getting there now, but at least we are getting there.

It will be future-proofed as far as we can see, but obviously times change and standards 5425 change and we have to change with them; but if it does as well as the last Special Care Baby Unit did – and it was designed 15 years ago – I am sure it will deliver excellent value for money.

I beg to move. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 5 on your Order Paper. Those 5430

in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. A Member: Divide. The President: Division too late, Hon. Member. 5435

6. Laxey MER Station Relay Works – Expenditure approved

The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure to move:

That Tynwald approves the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure incurring expenditure not exceeding the sum of £678,000 in respect of Laxey MER Station Relay Works, this being the final phase of the scheme. [Reference: G16-023 Item 2 under the heading Department of Community, Culture and Leisure on page 25 of the Isle of Man Budget 2013-14 and as detailed in the Capital Estimates 2013-14 to 2017-18 under the heading ‘Committed Schemes’ on page 66 of the Isle of Man Budget 2013-14.] The President: Item 6. The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure to move. The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Madam

President. The Isle of Man is fortunate to have retained a network of heritage railways unlike anywhere 5440

else. Millions of visitors and residents have travelled along our east coast and to the summit of Snaefell, thanks to political support through the years, initially to acquire the railways for the nation and latterly to reinvest in the 100-year-old rolling stock, craftwork and infrastructure that will enable them to continue to provide their unique service. The Department’s investment in these facilities has resulted in passenger figures increasing from around 36,000 three years ago 5445


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to almost 50,000 over this year. A similar improvement has also been seen on the Manx Electric Railway.

However, vintage railways are expensive to maintain, and I seek the approval of this Hon. Court for further funding to enable work to progress on the third and final phase of the Laxey MER station works. I am aware that some Members may consider this funding to be non-5450 essential at this difficult economic time, but I must stress that to not approve this funding puts the next year’s MER operations in doubt. The message is that stark.

These essential improvement works commenced in 2010, with the design and construction of a replacement bridge after an inspection by a structural engineer deemed that it was necessary. That scheme cost £116,106 and was completed in March 2011, enabling the MER to continue 5455 operating between Laxey and Douglas.

The second phase involved construction of a replacement substation at Laxey, an installation of electrical equipment and cables at a total cost of £268,378. The building was completed in September 2012, with installation of the electrical switchgear completed in December last year.

The requirement for this final phase of works was first identified in a report by the inspector 5460 of railways back in 2008. At that time, significant safety concerns were expressed about the condition of the track infrastructure at Laxey – the very hub of the line, with the interchange to the mountain. Two subsequent visits by the railways inspectors have expressed concern that the remedial works have not been undertaken.

Railway engineering management have found it necessary to spend revenue money on 5465 addressing the most urgent health and safety concerns in order to keep the operation going. Temporary fixes and patching up have kept the MER running since 2008, but this cannot be sustained any longer. Approval is therefore being sought for £678,000 to be made available from the capital funds for track and rail replacement at Laxey Manx Electric Railway station.

This sum is made up of, as follows: excavation ballast track laying costs, £360,875; supply of 5470 rails, sleepers etc at a cost of £255,550; overhead electrification works, costing £41,250; post-contract professional fees of £20,325. £240,000 of the total will be off-Island expenditure for specialist raw materials; the balance of the £438,000 will be on-Island expenditure. The Department has no alternative but to purchase track and associated items from off Island, but wooden sleepers accounting to approximately £15,000 will be purchased from local sawmills. A 5475 local contractor, Colas, will be appointed to undertake this work, if approved.

I hope that Members agree that the Island’s tourism product would be sadly reduced without the appeal of our extensive network of heritage railways. Indeed, the independent survey carried out by ECROYS (Economic Impact of Heritage Railways in the Isle of Man) two years ago, suggested our railways contribute £11 million annually to the local economy. 5480

Unfortunately, the requirement to invest in the infrastructure comes at a time when the Island faces economic hardship. I am asking this Hon. Court to consider the long term and not risk losing an essential part of our heritage because of the current financial difficulties. It is not overstating the case to advise that, without significant and continuing investment, the railways are at imminent risk of ceasing operation. We know that once railways close they are unlikely to 5485 re-open.

Support for this final spend at Laxey would mean work could commence on 4th November. It is a 15-week programme and is scheduled to be completed by March 2014. This will necessitate a later-than-usual opening for the next season for the Manx Electric Railway. However, without this vital investment, the railway infrastructure – the Electric Railway – may not be able to 5490 operate safely next year and may not re-open at all. This is essentially a vote for the continuation of the electric tram service operated on the Isle of Man.

Madam President, I beg to move this motion standing in my name. The President: Hon. Mr Speaker. 5495


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The Speaker: Madam President, I am very pleased to second the motion and to support the Minister and the Department in this particular scheme.

As has just been stated by the Minister, this is not just a nice-to-have project of some sort but absolutely essential for the continued functioning of the MER between, in fact, Douglas and 5500 Ramsey. It is also critically important if the Department is to continue with its successful programme of building up the railway operations as a holiday business and as a visitor attraction, which it has done so successfully the last few years.

I know it has been a source of some frustration to the Department actually being able to bring this motion forward today, because, as the memorandum says, it is the third phase of an 5505 engineering project and I know it has been subject to a number of revisits financially, in terms of the costs. The escalating cost of steel and track work has required the Department actually to scale down to the basic essentials this particular scheme, and that has caused some delay – I think it was the winter of 2011 was phase 1 of the project. I know it had been intended and hoped to have this phase well underway this time last year, ideally. 5510

Equally, for that reason it has been a source of frustration locally, because it is not just phase 3 of an essential engineering project for Government, but it is actually the critical first phase of a regeneration scheme for the whole of the centre of Laxey, inasmuch as when the track work and essential work is completed, which is to be configured in a particular way, that will then enable regeneration work in the adjacent rose gardens and the creation of a Laxey 5515 square to take place, which will serve as a new visitor gateway to the station and help the commercial attractiveness of that location; and for that redevelopment to take place with all the enhanced paving and stones surfacing… that cannot take place in isolation.

In fact – and I am sure the Minister will confirm – what is proposed in Laxey Station itself is very basic work. It is new track and rail realignment and the creation of a compacted rolled 5520 stone surface, which will ultimately serve as the base for enhanced attractive paving such as we have seen so successfully introduced in other regeneration schemes in Ramsey and Douglas.

It is the additional cost of that work which the Department was unable to meet out of normal resources and which will be the subject of a separate bid to the Chief Minister’s Regeneration Committee, to whom I look as I speak, to actually enable the programme as a whole to roll 5525 forward.

I am also pleased that elements of the scheme, which caused some quite unnecessary controversy, such as lighting and seating detail, are to be a reserved matter; but very wisely the proposal includes the laying of the ducting for the lighting to be done at a future date and to be the subject of regeneration funding. 5530

So, for these reasons, it is actually a very important project for Laxey itself, in regeneration terms, as well as being essential from an engineering point of view for the Department.

I congratulate the Department for the work that has been done. I know a lot of work has gone into this over the last couple of years or so and I hope it will be fully supported this afternoon. 5535

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Madam President. I have no problem in supporting this motion put by the Minister for Community, Culture and 5540

Leisure this evening. However, I was a bit surprised to note that his opening speech moving this measure was

rather emotional, to say the least, for a non-emotive subject; and I would ask the Minister, when he recoups after the debate, why it is that he was trying to put our arms up our backs. Why the emotional speech? Can he give a reason? The first question. 5545

The second question is what was the Treasury's view on this matter when he went for the money? What did they have to say? Did they have any hand in reducing the value of the


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£678,000 that you are now coming to this Court for? What were the issues? If you would make comments on those I would be very grateful.

Finally, Madam President, the Speaker gave a fairly glowing presentation in his speech, which 5550 was excellent to see: how this was really one part – an important part – in a jigsaw that is coming together there, which is giving a new gateway into Laxey in this very important regeneration project. Very interesting, but nothing mentioned about parking. That is not relevant to this motion, I do appreciate, but you know if you get half a dozen cars in Laxey now you are full up. You cannot park on the main road leading in, there are major problems 5555 everywhere, Dumbells Terrace really is starting to close up itself and the attraction of parking... It may not be relevant for the Minister to answer this, but if he knows anything about parking… (Interjection) People have to go to Laxey and park, if they are not going to take the tram from Douglas to Ramsey and they wish to drive to Laxey and park before they go up on the Snaefell Mountain car. What are the arrangements for parking in this new regeneration project? 5560

Thank you. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. 5565 I too have no problem in supporting this, particularly given the Speaker’s eloquent talk and

discussion there about how this is going to benefit Laxey as part of overall regeneration. But I am slightly curious, and I am wondering whether the Minister will be able to inform me – given his fairly dramatic assertions there that the railway is on the point of collapsing if this does not take place – what the ongoing capital cost is going to be and if he can give the Court an idea of 5570 what the ongoing capital cost is going to be of maintaining and keeping the railway up to the required safety standards?

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Singer. 5575 Mr Singer: Madam President, I am not quite sure where all these arguments are coming

from. The fact is… and we believe what is written before us here, money has already been spent here… If the final phase – and hopefully it will be the final phase – is not undertaken, then the initial amount of money for the first two phases has been wasted (A Member: Hear, hear.) and we will lose a very important part of our heritage. 5580

I take it that the £675,000 is the right money, that we are not paying more than we should do, and I really do not think we have a choice. If we want to see the retention of our railway, the MER, as it is – and it brings a lot of money into the Island and a lot of people – then I hope that Members will support this.

5585 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President. I will be matter of fact and not emotional. I have to agree with the previous speaker: this is

the end of the trilogy. We have already completed two phases; this is the third. 5590 I was, on Saturday, at the MER station in Laxey, and there is restricted parking. There are

four, and there is the church, of course, or you have to go down the road and park or – (Interjections)

Mr Corkish: Ham and Egg Terrace. 5595 Mr Braidwood: There are different… I cannot remember the road – from the bottom going

up to the top with Blacks – but there is a little path, in actual fact, which you can cut into the railway station.


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I think if you look at the track, where the tram comes in and with the station, everything 5600 really needs replacing. As the Minister has said, we are trying to spend as much money as possible on Island. It is only the steel, with the rails having to be – £240,000 – brought in from the UK.

So, yes, Madam President, I will be supporting. In actual fact, the professional fees are only 7.31%. 5605

The President: The Minister to reply. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. Firstly, I would like to thank the Speaker for his support, not only just in this before us today 5610

but also with the dealings that we have had in Laxey to try and move things along. His support is very much appreciated.

Whether it was emotive… I think if the Members actually went down and saw the track at Laxey and saw how the railway was… We are in a situation where work needs to be continued on these; otherwise it will shut. We are trying to develop, over the next couple of years, a 5615 programme which could cost about £400,000 on annual maintenance, but we never know what the next big thing is going to be. One of these things that we are having to look at is not just the MER but we have also got the Snaefell and the Steam Railway.

Like I said, heritage railways are not cheap, but it brings a lot to the Isle of Man; it is amazing what it has done. Today, I met with people from Network Rail who have come over here to see 5620 what we do; there is a dialogue with those. So there are people we are dealing with.

The parking: we are renewing the track; we are not dealing outside the track so – Mr Houghton: Do you have an overall plan? 5625 The Minister: We have got to look at Laxey as a renewal. If we had voted coming back here

for more money, then… we are trying to be realistic. We are trying to keep it as low as possible so that we are prioritising our spend. We do not want to be spending more money than we really have to, to keep this railway going.

Mr Cannan, yes, we are looking at everything. We are trying to bring plans forward through 5630 Treasury about the overall cost – not just for this year, but into the future – of what things are going to be. It is a priority list for the future and it is to make sure that we have that priority list, we have got that; that the officers are looking at this.

With that, Madam President, I would like to thank Members for their support and I beg to move. 5635

The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 6 on your Order Papers. Those

in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows: 5640

In the Keys – Ayes 22, Noes 2

FOR Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Quayle

AGAINST Mrs Cannell Mr Thomas


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Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

The Speaker: Madam President in the Keys 22 for, 2 against.


FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

AGAINST None

The President: In the Council, 9 votes for and none against. The motion therefore carries. 5645

7. Ecclesiastical Committee – Draft Churchwardens Measure (Isle of Man) – Report received and recommendation approved

The Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald (Mr Anderson) to move:

That the Report of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald on the draft Churchwardens Measure (Isle of Man) [PP No 0117/13] be received and the following recommendation be approved: That the draft Churchwardens Measure (Isle of Man) [PP No 0117/13] in the form laid before Tynwald be presented to Her Majesty for Her Royal Assent, as required by Schedule 1 to the Church Legislation Procedure Act 1993.

The President: We move on to Item 7, Hon. Members. I call on the Chairman of the 5650

Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald, Mr Anderson, to move. The Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald (Mr Anderson): Thank you,

Madam President. The members of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald are Mr Corkish MLC, 5655

Mr Alf Cannan MHK and myself. Our duties are to meet from time to time and report on any legislative matter that the Church of England – the established Church – wish to progress.

Your Committee met on 15th July with Members of the Legislative Committee of the Diocese of Sodor and Man to consider the draft Churchwardens Measure (Isle of Man).


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The objects of this draft Measure are to make new provision for the appointment of 5660 churchwardens, replacing the Churchwardens (Appointment and Resignation) Measure 1964.

Secondly, the current pastoral reorganisation has revealed defects in the states and responsibilities of churchwardens for parish burial grounds, and this draft Measure corrects those defects.

Thirdly, this draft Measure preserves the change made by the Mission and Pastoral Measure 5665 (Isle of Man) 2012, under which the number of churchwardens is fixed by a scheme of the Church Commissioners.

Fourthly, further changes to the present law include clarification of the levying of burial rates; the qualifications required by a churchwarden; new disqualifications for the office of churchwarden, based on those applying in England; and changes in the elections of 5670 churchwardens, their attendance at meetings, and rules related to their resignation. The full explanation note is in the Report.

Your Committee have considered the draft Measure and recommended that it should be given Tynwald approval today and then presented to Her Majesty the Queen in the same manner as a Bill and have the force and effect of an Act of Tynwald that required Royal Assent. 5675

Madam President, I beg to move. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Corkish. Mr Corkish: Madam President, I beg to second. 5680 The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 7, Hon. Members. Those in

favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

8. Ecclesiastical Committee – Draft Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure (Isle of Man) – Report received and recommendation approved

The Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald (Mr Anderson) to move:

That the Report of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald on the draft Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure (Isle of Man) [PP No 0118/13] be received and the following recommendation be approved: That the draft Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure (Isle of Man) [PP No 0118/13] in the form laid before Tynwald be presented to Her Majesty for Her Royal Assent, as required by Schedule 1 to the Church Legislation Procedure Act 1993. The President: Item 8, the Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald,

Mr Anderson. 5685 The Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald (Mr Anderson): Thank you,

Madam President. The object of the draft Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure (Isle of Man) is to extend to

the Isle of Man the Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure (Isle of Man) 2013, with mainly 5690 technical modifications to take account of differences between English and Manx law and procedures.

Amendments are made to misconduct rules on the part of the cleric, in relation to the equality of persons or groups of different races being incompatible with the teaching of the Church of England; a Bishop being able to impose a penalty on a cleric, even after the complaint 5695


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has been referred to the disciplinary tribunal; the constitution of the appeal court; some penalties may be imposed on a cleric at a tribunal hearing as a result of certain other sentences or orders; the two-year time-limit for imposing certain penalties may be extended where the Bishop is unaware of the conviction etc; also power to suspend a cleric where he or she is convicted of an indictable offence or entered on a barred list; also the Bishop must be notified 5700 by a cleric of any matrimonial orders and any entry on a barred list. A full explanatory note is in the Report.

Your Committee has considered the draft Measure and recommends that it should be given Tynwald approval today and then presented to Her Majesty in the same manner as a Bill, and have the force and effect of an Act of Tynwald that would require Royal Assent. 5705

Madam President, I beg to move. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Corkish. Mr Corkish: Thank you, Madam President. 5710 I beg to second. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 8 on your Order Paper. Those

in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

9. Public Accounts Committee – Handling by the Manx Authorities of the Case of Dr Dirk Hoehmann –

Report received and recommendations approved 5715 The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr Cannan) to move:

That the Report of the Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts on the Handling by the Manx Authorities of the Case of Dr Dirk Hoehmann [PP No 0097/13] be received and that the following recommendations be approved – Recommendation 1 That all Departments, Boards and Offices must ensure that robust checks are carried out in respect of the appointment of staff, particularly those professionals who are placed in a position of trust. Recommendation 2 That Departments, Boards and Offices should have regard to the circumstances relating to this particular case and must ensure that procedures for internal investigations are undertaken in a timely manner when serious criminal proceedings are involved. Recommendation 3 That the Department of Home Affairs should undertake a thorough review of legislation, regulation and procedures for extradition between the Isle of Man and the UK to ensure that the lessons have been learned from the Hoehmann case and to provide assurance that such circumstances will not arise again in the future; and that the Department should report the results of its review to Tynwald by January 2014. Recommendation 4 That the Department of Home Affairs should introduce as soon as practicable into Manx statute an offence similar to that in section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 (of the UK Parliament). The President: Item 9, Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, Mr Cannan, to move.


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The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Madam President. 5720

I am pleased to move the motion before you today on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee. Tynwald will of course recall that the full report on the case of Dr Dirk Hoehmann was presented to the Court in June but I will seek to recap, as succinctly as possible, the events leading up to the Public Accounts Committee’s investigation.

Dr Hoehmann was appointed by the Department of Health in March 2005 and failed to 5725 disclose, as far as we are aware, that he had been convicted in Germany of 44 offences of deception and sentenced to three years in prison. Dr Hoehmann did not serve this sentence and instead absconded to the UK where, in July 2005, he commenced work as an ear, nose and throat surgeon at Noble’s Hospital. It is the understanding of the Public Accounts Committee that no criminal record check was undertaken at the commencement of Dr Dirk Hoehmann’s 5730 appointment.

In 2007, an ear, nose and throat specialist, who was part of the panel which appointed Dr Dirk Hoehmann, heard a rumour that Dr Hoehmann had been the subject of criminal proceedings and reported the matter to the Medical Director at Noble’s Hospital, who initiated a criminal record check in 2008. This criminal record check did not report any convictions and 5735 Dr Hoehmann remained in post. However, the Public Accounts Committee were able to establish that the local Constabulary did, in fact, find out in 2008 that Dr Hoehmann was the subject of a European Arrest Warrant; but, at the insistence of the Serious and Organised Crime Agency (SOCA), did not pass this information on to the Hospital. Instead, it appears that SOCA or UK police agencies attempted to process matters themselves, and the Public Accounts Committee 5740 have, in the end, had to assume that it was a lack of progress in this process that, in 2010, resulted in Dr Hoehmann eventually being arrested and charged, under the Theft Act 1981, by the local Constabulary.

Dr Hoehmann was then held in Manx custody for a period of 375 days until the conclusion of his trial in November 2011, when he was then acquitted by a jury on charges of obtaining a 5745 pecuniary advantage by deception. Following this trial, Dr Hoehmann was immediately rearrested and returned to the UK.

Madam President, the Public Accounts Committee has made four recommendations that have been accepted by the Council of Ministers. In general terms, it is fair to reflect that the Public Accounts Committee did not feel that the recruitment procedures were tight enough or 5750 administered efficiently; that the Public Accounts Committee felt that, in actual fact, the Isle of Man Constabulary should have judged matters important enough to have informed the Hospital in 2008 about Dr Hoehmann’s situation; and also that legislation is improved and broadened to allow for a successful prosecution in such obvious cases of deception.

Madam President, these recommendations have been, as I have said, accepted by the 5755 Council of Ministers. However, in line with the commitment of the Public Accounts Committee to allow more debate on their work, if so required, this motion has been brought before you today.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. 5760 Mr Watterson: I am happy to second the motion, Madam President. The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. 5765 Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. As a member of Public Accounts, I just thought perhaps the Chairman forgot, and it might

have been useful, to explain to Hon. Members that the investigation, or the request to investigate this, came from a Member of the Legislative Council. In fact, Mr Downie wrote to the


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Public Accounts Committee and asked us to investigate this and this is why we undertook the 5770 investigation, which was very thorough, very enlightening.

I hope that the recommendations that we have brought forward can only help the process in the future of being sure who we are doing business with.

Thank you. 5775 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Downie. Mr Downie: Yes, thank you, Madam President. I think there is a salutary lesson to be learned here in all this: when you do employ people at

this sort of level, it is best to do your homework properly. 5780 I am absolutely mortified that he was employed in the UK before he came here; so it was not

just the Isle of Man element, there was a UK element as well in all this. Perhaps, as part of the debate, somebody from the Department of Health might get up and say what actually takes place now when we are interviewing consultants, or is it done over the telephone or by internet or wherever it is done? 5785

There is another cost element to all this. We know the cost of some… [Inaudible] investigation, but do not forget there was court time involved here. At the end of the day, the person was acquitted. There was a significant cost to the taxpayer in all this, and I just hope that at long last we have actually learned our lesson.

I am grateful, really, in one way, that the Home Affairs Minister and his Department have 5790 taken it on the chin and they have stepped up to the plate and said that they really could do more and could do a lot better in the future. I am heartened by that because at least it has identified that there was a problem, rather than trying to brush it under the carpet.

I am absolutely certain, Hon. Members, if it had not been brought to the attention of the Public Accounts Committee we could well be in different circumstances altogether. 5795

Finally – maybe this is not the place, but I am going to say it anyway – if the man was just dismissed and fired, perhaps the whole thing could have gone on to the British Medical Association and they would have dealt with it, rather than a huge complex issue here in the Isle of Man, costing many, many… probably hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Thank you. 5800 The President: The Chairman to reply. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I thank Mrs Cannell for her additional information. 5805 Just to respond to Mr Downie, I do have some additional information in respect of the total

cost to the Legal Aid fund, which we have been told, including VAT, was £67,841. I have got nothing further to add, Madam President, except just to extend my thanks to the

members of the Public Accounts Committee for their work on this particular report. Otherwise, I beg to move. 5810

The President: Hon. Members, there has been little comment on this, so I will move it as one

motion. The motion before the Court is set out at Item 9 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 5815


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10.-12. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 – European Union (Al-Qaida Sanctions) Order 2013 approved –

European Union (North Korea Sanctions) Order 2013 approved – European Union (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 approved

The Chief Minister to move:

10. That the European Union (Al-Qaida Sanctions) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0271/13] 11. That the European Union (North Korea Sanctions) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0333/13] 12. That the European Union (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0335/13] The President: With the Court's permission, the Chief Minister would like to move Items 10,

11 and 12 on the Order Paper together but have them voted on separately. They all concern European Union sanction measures in the Island. Is the Court content that they be moved together? (It was agreed.)

Chief Minister. 5820 The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Thank you, Madam President. The three Orders before the Court today concern European Union sanctions that relate to

measures against the Al-Qaida organisation and against the governments of North Korea and Syria. In addition to applying the most recent substantive amendments to the relevant EU 5825 legislation, the Orders consolidate and replace previous Al-Qaida, North Korea and Syria Orders.

The Al-Qaida Order applies changes to the EU legislation to ensure that funds which belonged to Osama bin Laden do not become available to Al-Qaida terrorists. It also makes some amendments to the provisions under which people, whose assets have been frozen, may be able to access funds for legitimate reasons, such as for medical or legal expenses. 5830

The North Korea Order applies a number of additional sanctions measures against that country, following the nuclear test that it carried out earlier this year.

The Syria Order brings the Island’s measures against that country into line with the EU by expanding the list of items which require prior authorisation before they can be supplied to Syria. There is an exception to this requirement for products identified as consumer goods for 5835 use by the Syrian people. In addition, under the latest version of the EU sanctions against Syria, it is for the individual member states, rather than the EU as a whole, to decide whether any military item should be supplied to moderate groups within the opposition in Syria.

Madam President, I beg to move that Items 10, 11 and 12 on the Order Paper be approved. 5840 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Teare. Mr Teare: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and to reserve my remarks. 5845 The President: The motion before the Court is set out first at Item 10. Those in favour, please

say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Item 11: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Item 12: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

5850


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13.-14. Sea Fisheries Act 1971 – Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) Byelaws 2013 approved –

Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) (No. 2) Byelaws 2013 approved

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:

13. That the Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) Byelaws 2013 be approved. [SD No 0268/13] 14. That the Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Emergency Measures) (No. 2) Byelaws 2013 be approved. [SD No 0317/13] The President: Item 13, the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move. The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Again, if I could ask your permission, or the Court’s permission, to move Items 13 and 14

together, it would certainly assist. 5855 The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members? (Members: Agreed.) Minister. The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 5860 Both these Byelaws introduce additional changes to the provisions brought to this Court in

June to assist the queen scallop fishing industry. These further changes have been requested by both the catching and processing sectors of the industry that see it as further steps in attempting to achieve sustainability for their fishery, and have been based on scientific advice received from Bangor University. 5865

Using the positive resolution provisions of the primary legislation, the Department may make byelaws in circumstances such as these and bring them to the next available sitting of this Court. The original Emergency Byelaws are also before you today, even though they have been revoked by the (No. 2) Byelaws, following further representation from the industry on the issues which are more fully explained in the circulated memo. 5870

I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolutions in my name. The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 5875 I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The President: No Member wishes to speak. We take Item 13 first. Those in favour, please

say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Now Item 14: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 5880

15. Plant Health Act 1983 – Plant Health (Forestry) Order 2013 approved


That the Plant Health (Forestry) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0318/13] The President: Item 15, the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move.


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The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. This Order makes provision for combating the introduction of tree diseases into the Island,

whilst concerning both import and export of trees and tree material. The Order is necessary to meet European Community obligations for trade in trees and tree 5885

materials within that Community. Provisions governing tree health have been in place for many years, with the Department having several sets of orders or byelaws in existence to deal with specific diseases, such as Dutch Elm Disease and phytophthora ramorum.

Amongst other things, the Order contains general prohibitions and restrictions on tree material being landed in the Island and requires importers to notify the Department where 5890 importing tree and tree material. Provision is also included in the Order to require a landowner, via a notice from the Department, to destroy a diseased tree where such is identified. These measures are intended to protect the Island and ensure that it does not become a backdoor route for illegal trees and tree material from third countries to be imported or exported.

I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name. 5895 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 5900 The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 15. Those in favour, please say

aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Announcement of Royal Assent

The President: Hon. Members, before we move to Item 16, I can announce that Royal Assent has been given to the Regulation of Care Act 2013, which you recently amended. 5905

16. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 – Draft European Union (Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies) Order 2013 approved


That the draft European Union (Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No xxxx/xx] The President: Item 16, the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move. The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. This Order has been drafted to update and replace current provisions concerning the rules

for the prevention, control and eradication of certain transmissible diseases, such as BSE in 5910 cattle and scrapie in sheep.

The Order has been prepared by DEFA, in consultation with the Attorney General’s Chambers and with assistance from the Chief Secretary's Office. Procedure required that the draft Order was laid before Tynwald in July and it is now before the Court for approval.

The Order is an enabling power that will ensure DEFA’s authority to enforce its implementing 5915 TSE regulations will not be open to legal challenge. If approval is given today to the Order, it is


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envisaged that the enforcing regulations will be made soon afterwards and they will be laid before Tynwald in the near future.

Eaghtyrane, I am sure that all Members would agree that the Island should have the highest possible standards to prevent any animal that might be infected with BSE, or similar disease, 5920 from entering the food chain.

I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name. The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. 5925 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The President: The motion before the Court sits at Item 16 on your Order Paper, Hon.

Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 5930

17. Companies Act 1931 – Companies (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 approved

The Minister for Economic Development to move:

That the Companies (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0242/13] The President: Item 17, the Minister for Economic Development to move. The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. This Order is made by the Department of Economic Development with the concurrence of

Treasury under the Companies Act 1931. 5935 Companies Registry fees were last increased in April 2010. The Order provides for a revised

scale of fees to be payable from 7th January 2014. The fees will cover functions, including those in relation to the incorporation and registration of companies; the delivery of documents relating to companies, which include overseas companies; late fees; and the dissemination of information relating to companies. 5940

This is one of five Orders I will be asking Hon. Members to approve today. The recommended changes are the result of a comprehensive strategic review of all the fees charged by the Companies Registry, taking into account the priorities identified in the Government's Agenda for Change policy document. The general economic climate, the needs of local business and our need as an international business centre remain competitive with other jurisdictions. 5945

Madam President, reconciling all of these sometimes conflicting interests has not been easy; and I am grateful for the support of my colleagues in the Department, as well as the Treasury Minister in progressing the matter.

The Companies Registry is something of a mystery to many of us. It sits there quietly supporting both international and local businesses across every sector, while at the same time 5950 generating over £10 million a year towards the cost of Government. The cost of starting a new business can act as both an incentive or disincentive and the role of my Department is to encourage new business; so I am pleased to report this Order will reduce the cost of incorporating a company from £195 to £100.

This change may reduce the Companies Registry income by £100,000 but I believe we have to 5955 take some risks and we have to give those in the private sector, who are promoting the Island, something to sell. Just because we can increase a fee does not mean we have to. If we are to attract business to the Island – one of the key business objectives and an absolute necessity –


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and if we are to achieve the priorities identified in our policy documents, we must be able to cope with this loss of income, which will be offset by an increase in the annual return fee. 5960

We will also now offer a fast-track service for those prepared to pay a higher fee, of either £250 or £500, if they need a company urgently.

We are also taking steps to reduce red tape by doing away with an additional fee that has historically been payable by companies who want a large share capital in order to demonstrate their value. The fee was set at £17 for every £1,000, or part thereof, in excess of £2,000, with a 5965 maximum aggregate fee of £5,000. So this change could save a large company that figure and be the difference between a company choosing to incorporate on the Isle of Man or somewhere else.

Importantly, the annual return fee accounts for over 80% of the Companies Registry income and is currently set at £360, payable each year on the anniversary of incorporation. The rate of 5970 inflation, since the last increase, would be 10.3%. However, following discussions with Treasury, we have decided to increase the fee by 5%, to £380. This is in order to make sure that the annual Government fee does not make the Isle of Man companies unattractive when compared with our competitors. The annual return fee under this Order generates income of £6.6 million and this increase will generate an additional £350,000. 5975

Registered charities will continue to be exempt from payment on the annual return fee, but not the late filing fees. Non-profitmaking residential property management companies, educational, recreational and sporting clubs will pay a reduced annual return fee, which is now increased from £85 to £95.

A previous concession available to fiduciaries, whereby a dormant company only paid the 5980 reduced fee, is being withdrawn. As the Companies Registry is now able to incorporate a company within an hour, there is no need for a fiduciary to maintain a stock of shelf companies; and if they are holding a company to age it, they will sell it on at an appropriate cost, which in future can include the annual return fee.

Hon. Members should be aware there is no compulsion on anyone to incorporate or to work 5985 through a company. The principal benefit of trading as a limited company has always been the limited liability bestowed on the company's offices and shareholders. As a sole trader or other non-limited business, personal assets are at risk in the event of failure of the business, but this is not the case for a limited company. As long as the business is operated legally and within the terms of the Companies Act 1931, directors’ or shareholders’ personal assets are not at risk in 5990 the event of a winding up or receivership. However, once they are incorporated there are obligations on the officers – for example, to submit an annual return and to report changes in a timely manner. These requirements allow investors, which can include suppliers, to make sound financial choices about the company and also discourage fraud or other problems by making the company honestly and accurately report the way they are transacting business. 5995

This Order simplifies the late filing regime by reducing the current four filing periods to two, to make it less complicated and bureaucratic. The Isle of Man is now one of the only jurisdictions where a significant number of statutory forms can still be filed without attracting an official fee, provided the form is delivered within the prescribed filing period. The late filing fee, entirely within the control of the company, is now being increased from £67 to £100 and from £235 to 6000 £250. Companies have a month to inform the Registry about a change or to file their returns before they would incur this fee. These fees generate income of £½ million pounds and this increase could generate additional income of £80,000; however, if – as we would like – companies do file on time, the income stream will decrease.

In order to generate new income, two new fees are being introduced: one for the registration 6005 of a charge, at £25; and a second to record a charge being satisfied, at £10. This is an area of work where the Companies Registry is required to formally acknowledge the registration of the charge and its satisfaction by issuing a certificate. So considerable time is required to complete the process and these fees will generate income of £60,000.


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There is an obligation on the Department to make available to the public an index of all 6010 registered companies, as well as the documents relating to each one. The Registry is the sole repository of information about companies and other businesses on the Isle of Man.

Traditionally, our fees have been targeted at those who incorporate or manage companies, and comparatively little income has been derived from those who conduct searches or rely on the information we hold. The majority of those users will be financial or legal institutions 6015 conducting searches by way of business, so an increase in these fees should not deter new business.

The cost of examining a file will increase from £2.60 to £5. The cost of examining a document online will increase from £1.15 to £2 and the cost of providing a certificate of fact, which can take up to 30 minutes, is being increased from £41 to £50. 6020

Members must be aware all of these increases are significantly above the inflation for the period. The majority of other fees are increased by the rate of inflation, which is 10.3%.

The Companies (Fees and Duties) Order 2010 is revoked, and I beg to move that the Companies (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 be approved.

6025 Mr Crowe: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Madam President. The President: The motion before the Court is that the Companies (Fees and Duties) Order

2013 be approved. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 6030

18. Registration of Business Names Acts 1918 and 1954 – Registration of Business Names (Fees and Duties) Rules 2013 approved


That the Registration of Business Names (Fees and Duties) Rules 2013 be approved. [SD No 0245/13] The President: Item 18, Minister for Economic Development to move. The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. With the support of the Court, having given a lengthy introduction to the first part, I will 6035

move more quickly, with the Court’s permission, on the next four. The Companies (Transfer of Domicile) (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 is the application fee for

a company applying to move to the Isle of Man and is being reduced from £330 to £100, in order to attract new business. The remaining fees are being increased by approximately 10%, which represents the inflation. 6040

I beg to move. The President: Mr Crowe. Mr Crowe: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Madam President. 6045 The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 18 on your Order Papers. Those



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19. Partnership Act 1909 – Partnership (Fees) Rules 2013 approved


That the Partnership (Fees) Rules 2013 be approved. [SD No 0246/13] The President: Item 19, Minister for Economic Development. 6050 The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Registration of Business Names

(Fees and Duties) Rules 2013. The Rules provide for a revised scale of fees from 7th January 2014, covering functions including those in relation to the registration of a business name, the notification of amended particulars and the dissemination of information relating to registered 6055 business names.

These Rules increase the fees by approximately 10.3%, which represents the inflation. The registration fee is being increased by 20% to maintain income levels under this Act. If this business is sustained, the increase should help maintain our income at the current level, which is approximately £30,000 per year. 6060

I beg to move. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Crowe. Mr Crowe: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 6065 The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 19 on your Order Papers. Those


20. Companies Act 1931 – Companies (Transfer of Domicile) (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 approved


That the Companies (Transfer of Domicile) (Fees and Duties) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0247/13] The President: Item 20, Minister for Economic Development to move. 6070 The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. Partnership (Fees) Rules 2013. I am pleased to report this Rule will be reducing the cost of

registering a limited partnership from £220 to £100, with the primary objective being to encourage new business. The Companies Registry will also offer the fast-track service I mentioned before and it will simplify the late filing regime. A limited partnership has one month 6075 to inform the Companies Registry about a change or to file a statement before they incur a late fee. It is expected that, if this business is sustained, it will have maintained at approximately £20,000 per year.

I beg to move. 6080 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Crowe. Mr Crowe: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Madam President.


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The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 20. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 6085

21. Fees and Duties Act 1989 – Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) Order 2013 approved


That the Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0248/13] The President: Item 21, the Minister for Economic Development to move. The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Madam President, the Companies

Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) Order 2013. There is a statutory obligation on the Department to make available to the public an index of all registered companies, as well as the documents 6090 related to each one. The cost of examining the file will be, as I have indicated before, £2.60 to £5; a document online will increase from £1.50 to £2; and the certificate of fact is from £41 to £50.

I beg to move, Madam President. 6095 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Crowe. Mr Crowe: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Madam President. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 21. Those in favour, please say 6100


22. Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 – Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering – Exceptions to Overseas Conduct Defence) Order 2013

approved 6105 The Minister for Home Affairs to move:

That the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering – Exceptions to Overseas Conduct Defence) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0322/13] The President: Item 22, Minister for Home Affairs to move. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): Thank you, Madam President. Sections 139, 140 and 141 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 make it an offence for a person 6110

on the Island to handle proceeds of conduct that he or she knows, or reasonably believes, to be resulting from a criminal offence in another country. However, there is a defence under those sections that the person knows or reasonably believes that the conduct was not unlawful in the country in which it occurred at the time that it took place.

This Order clarifies and amends when that defence can be used. It removes the defence 6115 when the relevant criminal conduct was something that, if it had occurred on the Island, would have been an offence that would be punishable by a term of custody in excess of 12 months. This has the impact of making more serious offences fall outside the automatic defence.


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However, it allows the defence to be retained if the conduct in another country was equivalent to a specified regulatory offence on the Island under various Acts – namely the Casino Act 1986; 6120 the Gaming, Betting and Lotteries Act 1998; the Online Gambling Regulation Act 2001; the Collective Investment Schemes Act 2008; the Financial Services Act 2008; or the Insurance Act 2008. This has the impact of making offences in the regulated sectors still subject to the defence.

The Order before Hon. Members has been moved to correct an administrative error and 6125 bring the Island’s legislation further into compliance with the required international standards.

I beg to move that the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering – Exceptions to Overseas Conduct Defence) Order 2013 be approved.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. 6130 Mr Quirk: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 22, Hon. Members. Those in

favour, please say aye; against, no. The aye have it. The ayes have it. 6135

23. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 3) Order 2013 approved

The Minister for Social Care to move:

That the Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 3) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0303/13] The President: Item 23, the Minister for Social Care to move. The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Madam President, this Order applies to the

Island’s four statutory instruments of the United Kingdom Parliament, each of which relates to the uprating of Social Security benefits falling within the scope of the social security reciprocal 6140 agreement between the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom, as well as increases in the earnings limit which apply to certain of those benefits.

Under a long-standing resolution of this Hon. Court, the new rates of those pensions and benefits, which are the subject of the Order now before Hon. Members, were introduced in the Island from the week commencing 8th April 2013 on an administrative basis, pending their full 6145 formal application to the Island by Order. This Order now brings the new rates of the relevant pensions and benefits having effect in the United Kingdom into domestic legislation. Details are set out in a memorandum, which has been circulated to Hon. Members.

Madam President, I beg to move Item 23 on the Order Paper. 6150 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: Madam President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The President: The motion before the Court, Hon. Members, is set out at Item 23. Those in 6155



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24. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 4) Order 2013 approved


That the Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 4) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0304/13] The President: Item 24, Minister for Social Care to move. The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. 6160 This Order applies to the Island’s two statutory instruments of the United Kingdom

Parliament. The first instrument widens the provision relating to the crediting of National Insurance

contributions to certain persons who care for a child under the age of 12 but who do not receive Child Benefit for them. 6165

The second instrument amends the minimum period for which a claimant must be resident in the Isle of Man or the United Kingdom before they may be considered for Disability Living Allowance (DLA), Attendance Allowance or Carer’s Allowance. It reduces the maximum periods for which claimants of Disability Living Allowance or Attendance Allowance may continue to be paid benefit whilst temporarily abroad and amends, from 6th April… December 2018, the upper 6170 age limit for claiming Disability Living Allowance, consequent on the equalisation of men’s and women’s state pension age. Full details are set out in the memorandum which has been circulated to Hon. Members.

Madam President, I should also like to advise this Hon. Court that I have decided to omit certain provision contained in the second instrument, in its application to the Island. This 6175 provision relates to payment of the higher rate mobility component of Disability Living Allowance to persons who have an agreement for the lease of a vehicle from Motability, who have been in hospital for more than 28 days.

Normally, the payment of Disability Living Allowance – both the care component and the mobility component – stops once a person has been an inpatient in an NHS hospital for 28 days. 6180 However, claimants who have an agreement with Motability are afforded special treatment: the higher rate mobility component continues to be paid after 28 days’ hospitalisation, until either they return their vehicle to Motability or the term of their lease ends, whichever is the sooner.

The UK government has decided to treat all DLA claimants equally and so this special treatment, previously afforded to Motability lease holders in the UK, ended earlier this year, 6185 subject to limited transitional protection. I am conscious though that the potential loss of the vehicle leased from Motability could have a significant impact on disabled persons and their families. I am also aware that if we follow the UK’s example, the number of claimants in the Isle of Man who would be affected would be very small and so the cost of carrying on as we are would be insignificant. 6190

For these reasons, I have decided not to replicate the change in the UK’s DLA regulations here. Therefore, Motability leaseholders in the Isle of Man, who are hospitalised, will continue to have the higher-rate mobility component paid to Motability until either they return their vehicle to Motability, or the lease expires, whichever is the sooner.

Madam President, I beg to move Item 24 on the Order Paper. 6195 The President: The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 6200


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The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I could not let the Minister for Social Care get by without some commentary in this session. 6205

Just to let him know that I am continually watching these Orders and I must congratulate him on his last few words in making the difference here, as opposed to what the UK are doing with mobility allowance in this special case, as he referred to. That is excellent and it just shows you – something I have been calling for over the years on and off – that we can be different and be a little more caring when we choose to be; that is excellent. 6210

I just wanted to clarify that the… earlier in the points that he was raising, the eligibility criteria has been widened, as far as I can tell; so that we might actually catch some folk on these contributions, bring them into the net, as far as I can understand that. If he could just clarify a little further on that, that we may actually catch a few more people with the widening eligibility criteria, as I call it, that would be excellent, Eaghtyrane. 6215

Thank you. The President: The Minister to reply. The Minister: Madam President, I am grateful for the Hon. Member for North Douglas's kind 6220

comments, and it is good that we can identify these particular areas from time to time; and, yes, it does, in regard to his second point, slightly widen it.

Madam President, I beg to move. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 24, Hon. Members. Those in 6225


26. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax (Education) Order 2013 approved


That the Value Added Tax (Education) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0281/13] The President: We have already dealt with Item 25. We move to Item 26. I call on the

Minister for the Treasury to move. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. 6230 This Order amends group 6 of schedule 10 to the Value Added Tax Act 1996. It removes the

extension from VAT for suppliers of business research between eligible bodies. It does this by omitting item 1(b) of group 6.

The amendment has effect in respect of written contracts entered into or after 1st August 2013. 6235

An eligible body is defined in Group 6 and includes schools, colleges, public bodies and non-profit making bodies. The amendment is necessary to ensure that domestic VAT law corresponds to the requirements of the European Union law. An equivalent change has been made to the UK law following a challenge from the European Commission, which held that the exemption for such research was not permitted by the Principal VAT Directive. 6240

It is not expected that the change will have any significant revenue or resource implications in the Island.

Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.


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The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. 6245 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 26. Those in favour, please say


27. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2013 approved


That the Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0288/13] 6250 The President: Item 27, the Minister for the Treasury to move. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. This Order makes various amendments to the Value Added Tax Act 1996, which correspond

to those made in equivalent United Kingdom law by means of the Finance Act 2013. The amendments are concerned with two areas of the law. Firstly, sections 56 and 57 of the 6255

Act are being repealed and schedule 7 amended, to ensure that the arrangements for accounting for VAT for business road fuel used for private journeys meets the requirements of European Union law. The previous arrangements in the UK, which were the same here, were not considered to properly implement the EU legislation. There will continue to be an option of using a flat-rate mechanism to determine what VAT may be due for private use of the fuel, in a 6260 similar way as in the past. An Order will set down the formula whereby the tax of flat rates may be revalorised annually.

The second area of law that is affected concerns the reduced rate allowed for the installation of energy-saving materials in certain buildings. Schedule 1 to the Act has been amended so that the reduced rate will no longer be available for installation of such materials into buildings 6265 intended solely for use as a relevant charitable purpose. The intention of the relief, allowing use of the reduced rate, was that it should benefit residential buildings and the European Commission took the view that the way that the UK had implemented this relief into domestic law meant that its scope was too broad and buildings would qualify that should not do so. The Commission went so far as to commence infraction proceedings against the UK as a result. 6270

The changes made by the Finance Act 2013, and in the Island under this Order, mean that domestic VAT law more closely follows the underlying EU VAT legislation.

The changes made in respect of the private use of road fuel are not expected to involve any significant revenue or resource implications. The change to the reduced rate for installation of energy-saving materials is also thought to have limited impact. 6275

Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. The President: The Hon. Mr Braidwood. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 6280 The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 27, Hon. Members. Those in



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28. Customs and Excise Acts 1986 – Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2013 approved


That the Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0294/13] The President: Item 28, the Minister for the Treasury to move. 6285 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. This Order amends two Acts of Tynwald: the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 and

the Tobacco Products Duty Act 1986. The amendments made correspond to those made to the equivalent United Kingdom Acts by the meaning of the Finance Act 2013. 6290

In the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986, section 146 was amended and a new schedule 2A inserted. The effect is to provide explicit provisions allowing for the detention of goods by Customs where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that those goods may be liable to forfeiture, as opposed to by seizure, and thus allowing time for further enquiries and other action to be taken. 6295

The new schedule includes provision for a civil penalty for unauthorised removal of goods which are formally detained but are allowed to remain in situ and for the seizure of other goods of equivalent value from the trader’s stock, if required.

These amendments have been made to clarify the law following a legal challenge to HMRC in the UK. Section 150 of the Management Act is also amended to set £10,000 as the maximum 6300 penalty that may be imposed in lieu of the detention of a larger ship – that is to say one of 250 tonnes or more. Such detention may be triggered through the involvement in a customs offence of a responsible officer on the vessel, and an amendment adds a bosun to the list of such officers.

Finally, in section 184 of the Management Act, the definition of goods is amended to make it 6305 explicit that the definition includes all types of containers.

In the Tobacco Products Duty Act 1986, section 1 is amended, with effect from 1st January 2014, to narrow the exemption from excise duty allowed for herbal tobacco. From then, only those products used exclusively for medical purposes will be eligible for the exemption.

Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 6310 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 6315 The President: The motion before the Court is that the Customs and Excise Act 1986

(Amendment) Order 2013 be approved. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

29. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Export Control (Burma Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 approved


That the Export Control (Burma Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0293/13]


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The President: Item 29, the Minister for the Treasury to move. 6320 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare):Thank you, Madam President. This Order is to apply in Island law the Export Control (Burma Sanctions) Order 2013. The

applied legislation reflects changes to export control measures imposed in respect of Burma following political developments in that country and the replacement of the previous EU Council regulation imposing such sanctions. 6325

This Order revokes the application in the Island of the Export Control (Burma) Order 2008, as amended, and implements controls necessary to give effect to Council Regulation (EU) No 401/2013.

The application of the new Order ensures that the Island not only complies with requirements of the Customs and Excise Agreement with the UK but also demonstrates its commitment to 6330 being a good member of the international community.

Not all sanctions imposed on Burma have been lifted. There remain controls related to military equipment and equipment that may be used for internal repression.

Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 6335 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 29. Those in favour, please say 6340


30. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Export Control (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 approved


That the Export Control (Syria Sanctions) Order 2013 (Application) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0295/13] The President: Item 30, the Minister for the Treasury to move. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. The purpose of this Order is to apply in Island law the Export Control (Syria Sanctions) Order, 6345

with it having effect from 6th September 2014. The Order applied provides for the enforcement in the Island of the re-enacted European

Union trade sanctions against Syria, as well as dealing with offences and penalties for breaches of the sanctions and allowing for licences to be issued, where required.

The applied Order also creates a national prohibition on the provision of brokering services in 6350 relation to equipment which might be used for internal repression.

The application of the Order maintains the Island’s sanctions in respect of Syria so that they correspond to those in place in the UK.

Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 6355 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.


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The President: We are voting on Item 30, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; 6360 against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

31. Companies Act 1982 – Companies Act 2006 –

Recognised Auditors (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2013 approved The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Recognised Auditors (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0307/13] The President: Item 31, Minister for the Treasury to move. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. 6365 The Companies Acts 1982 to 2006 empower the Financial Supervision Commission to make

regulations in respect of the oversight of recognised auditors. ‘Recognised auditors’ is a narrowly defined term that relates only to auditors of a specific and

limited class of Isle of Man companies. The recognised auditors regime has been in place since 2010. 6370

Three sets of existing Regulations cover the registration, accounting and oversight functions of the recognised auditor regime. These are the Accounting (Recognised Auditors) Regulations 2010, Public Oversight of Recognised Auditors Regulations 2010, and Register of Recognised Auditors Regulations 2010, which are henceforth referred to as the principal Regulations.

The Recognised Auditors (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2013, henceforth 6375 referred to as the amendment Regulations, amend all three principal Regulations.

Firstly, the amendment Regulations substitute the Financial Reporting Council Ltd for the Public Oversight Board in the principal Regulations. This change follows the restructuring of these bodies to whom the Financial Supervision Commission delegate certain functions.

The amendment Regulations also change the date of reporting by recognised auditors to the 6380 Financial Supervision Commission to avoid the current need for bi-annual reporting. The amendment changes the reporting dates from the anniversary of first registration to 1st September annually. The date of payment of the annual fee is amended in line with the change to the date of reporting.

A consultation with all affected parties was undertaken during the summer and Attorney 6385 General’s Chambers’ comments were obtained. Comments were incorporated into the final draft.

Madam President, I beg to move that the Recognised Auditors (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2013 be approved.

6390 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 31. Those in favour, please say 6395

aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Item 32, Minister for the Treasury to move. (Several Members: Done.) Oh, sorry. The Minister: Sorry, Madam President, didn’t we take that out of order after Item 4?


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The President: I am sorry, I am getting behind you, Hon. Member. 6400 The Minister: That is alright. The President: Too much paper!

33. Minister for Health – Motion of no confidence – Debate commenced

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Skelly) to move:

That Tynwald has no confidence in Hon. David Anderson MHK as Minister for Health. The President: We move now to Item 33. I call on the Minister for Rushen – the Member for 6405

Rushen (Laughter); my apologies, Hon. Member. The Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly. Mr Skelly: Apologies accepted, Eaghtyrane. Hon. Members, the motion before you here tonight is not about an individual, it is not about

the hardworking staff (Interjection) – the good people of Rushen – and it is certainly not about 6410 cheap politics. It is here about the people of the Isle of Man who have lost their trust and confidence in our treasured Health Service.

I deeply regret putting this motion in the Hon. Mr Anderson's name, for I believe he is indeed honourable. He has strong principles – he has displayed that many times, voting against Council of Ministers – but those same strong principles I believe I also have, and I also believe that this 6415 Department has serious fundamental failings. It has a strong culture against change, and it has policies that are simply unsustainable. We all know the Minister is the Department. The Minister has ultimate responsibility, and this Minister has been in post for four years, and I am afraid that is unacceptable to me.

The real question is do we have a Health Department fit for purpose and fit for the future? 6420 Two years ago, I attended a presentation to newly elected Tynwald Members: ‘Financial Landscape of the Department of Health and Sustainability of Health Services’. I think Mr Cannan raised this point this morning, funnily enough. It very clearly states we have a demographic time bomb. We have a growing ageing population, requiring more care and increased costs; so much so, if we were to stand still, it says in 10 years’ time we need another £100 million. That is 10 6425 years’ time – actually, no, that is eight years’ time; time is running out – and that is all set against a reducing budget: demographic time bomb. So we clearly have a Health Service that is unfit for purpose and unfit for the future. We need a fundamental new strategy. But this is no new news. We learnt about it two years ago, but the Department has known about this for many years and you have to ask yourself what is this Department and this Minister doing about it? 6430

We saw I do not know how many press releases this summer – I will come back to that later – but the one that stood out for me was not the one that came from the Department, but the one issued by the Chief Minister. The Chief Minister called for a national debate on the future of the Health Service. I could not agree more, but why wasn’t that the Health Minister?.

This problem is not unique. We have the Department of Social Care with very similar 6435 problems – unsustainable future policies – so what is the difference? The difference is the Minister. This Minister has done more in two years than Minister Anderson has done in four years in post. He has come a long way in a short time, and he still has a long way to go, a very difficult path, but he has had consultations and he has had, very importantly, a debate on the floor of this Court about the core principles of his Department. He has got agreement of this 6440 Court on those core principles. That is what we should have had and what we will probably have


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now, sadly too late. Frankly, I think it is a great shame, when they restructured Government, that they split these two Departments, because we would be an awful lot further along.

Recently, I was reading the Chief Minister's Agenda for Change. There was a key point, and it says: 6445

‘plan for the opportunities and challenges posed by our rising life expectancy which will significantly change the nature of our society.’ We are almost halfway through a term. I have to ask is the Chief Minister satisfied with his

results? Further in the Agenda for Change, it says: ‘improve focus on the customer.’ That is not an idle statement, and I think that is something we all need to take on board. We

must think of the customer first. In the Department of Health, the number-one priority has to be 6450 patient care and satisfactory patient outcomes. And so you have to ask the question, how do we manage patient care and patient outcomes?

We attended a presentation a couple of weeks ago, Members, and we learnt about patient experience indicators. Here, there is a system where two people go and interview 10 people in a ward once a month. They take it down manually, they compile this report, and this is what we 6455 have. I am led to believe there are over 20,000 admissions into Noble’s. What real benefit is that report? It does not tell us anything – a drop in the ocean.

Talking of measurement, I looked at the Department of Health Code of Practice for the Delivery of Services. I see words like ‘commitment’, ‘core values’, ‘principles’, ‘staff support’, ‘listen to your views’; but what I did not see there was the total absence of ‘clinical governance’. 6460 What about NICE? That is National Institute for Clinical Excellence. Are we ignoring British medical standards? (A Member: No.) Why is it not here in the Code of Practice, I ask? (Interjection) The only measurement that I can find – and I raised this last June in Tynwald – was complaints. They keep a record of complaints, and the question I asked was how many complaints have we received at the Department of Health for the last five years? That number 6465 represented one landing on that Minister’s desk almost every other day. The most disturbing and frightening statistic was that the top complaint was clinical treatment. So, is that acceptable – that is the question I ask you, Members – and what are we doing about it? But it does answer the question why clinical governance is not in the Code of Practice right there.

The backbone of any Health Service must be a strong performance management regime. It 6470 has to be an essential component if we are to achieve sustainable healthcare in the future. We must have regular external reviews; and I welcome, as I am sure all Members welcome, the West Midlands Quality Review Service. It is just a shame it took political pressure to make it actually happen. (Interjection) I want to ensure, and I am sure we all want to ensure, that this will be a rigorous, meaningful, timely evaluation and publicly available results – and we should 6475 not be afraid of those results. This will provide real evidence and real difference for the future.

Measuring and improving patient outcomes is likely to be the most powerful vehicle to lower healthcare costs. If you improve care you improve efficiency, and ultimately you will lower costs. And let us not forget the economic benefit: improving care will get people back to work and help the economy. I know the Department of Social Care are looking at this issue, and DED should 6480 take an interest too. Because if we are talking change, transformation must come from within, and that has to be led from the top. I read the Minister’s Vision statement and I was really surprised again by the lack of commentary about patient care and patient outcomes. It just makes you ask where is the focus, where is the direction, where is the leadership?

I, like many of you, have met a number of health professionals – mine is going back well over 6485 a year – at all different levels. They are undoubtedly committed to their profession, they are


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undoubtedly concerned about patient care; but what I did discover is a layer, a hidden culture of entrenched practices and self-interest, and that needs challenging.

The Chief Minister raised the failure of IT. Once more, I could not agree more. Information and patient data is absolutely critical in any health service. It just stands to reason: better 6490 information, better health, better patient outcomes. When I did my investigations, I was really disappointed to see that IT was in total disarray: incomplete, inconsistent or, worse still, non-existent. But of course, once more, this is nothing new. You read the 2006 Review of Healthcare: lack of management information and lack of framework for performance management – critical.

How do we monitor re-admission and mortality rates? Vital statistics in a medical service. I 6495 thought it was interesting yesterday when we received yet another press release, referring us to ‘Dr Foster’ online. I have looked at this quite a lot, actually. It is an independent and central NHS database; all matter of comparative health data. Do you know what: you will not find the Isle of Man there, because we do not have any information, nothing to share. So, again you have got to ask where is the focus. 6500

Have you ever wondered why it takes so long to get medical results? I will tell you why: because files are moved manually. There is a team of staff moving physical files around a department. Sharing patient data will improve care and ultimately save lives. When I challenged the Department about their IT failings, I was met with the blame culture. I heard it mentioned earlier: silo mentality again – ‘not us; it’s someone else’ – but then you have a look at this 6505 Department and you see they have their own IT team, they have their own IT budget. In the last three years they spent £10 million, so where is the focus? Where are the priorities?

The greatest failure is the lack of financial control. The Hon. Member for Middle had a Question this morning – very pertinent indeed – and we had this presentation two weeks ago, where it was admitted by senior management they cannot give us a basic cost analysis of cost 6510 benefit of a basic healthcare function; no idea. I was deeply alarmed, I have to say. I do not know if any of you have read the Francis Report on the Mid-Staffordshire failings. One of the key recommendations was to improve the basic corporate governance and financial competence. Sound familiar? I was really shocked that the Chief Minister said he has been up there many times to the Hospital and the noise that we are hearing is ‘Let’s increase headcount.’ That 6515 sounds to me like ‘Let’s increase budget’, and this from a Department which cannot even control basic expenditure. That is a massive failing. This is the second biggest spending Department: £137 million they spend, and they cannot control basic expenditure.

So I ask the question of the Chief Minister and Treasury Minister: if we are going to increase budget here for this headcount, where is the money going to come from? All the Departments 6520 are fighting tooth and nail over trying to find savings to meet budget. Where is that money going to come from? The Department of Education? Are we going to hit the families again; the Police; the Fire Service? Can we afford cuts there? Maybe the farmers? We are working so hard in all the Departments to save money, and this Department, I am afraid, is out of financial control. (Interjection) 6525

Headcount: there is one increase to headcount in this Department, and it is a spin doctor. I cannot believe how… In fact, I am embarrassed, actually, by the amount of press releases that have been coming out over the last two months, and all it is doing is concealing the real issue. (Two Members: Hear, hear.)

The consultants’ letter… I know several of you have actually seen this. It raises all kinds of 6530 concerns and it is quite timely that this has come to the floor of Tynwald, because this is one year on. It took many months before this consultant’s letter arrived at the Department – 10th October 2012, it actually said; and just to give you one extract from it, it says:

‘Attempts to raise concerns about poor practice and system failures that can lead to poor outcomes for patients…’ 6535 That is effectively putting lives at risk.


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I have spoken to a number of these people and many more, and let me tell you they still stand by this letter and its findings, and it is so serious several of them have written to the General Medical Council and their professional indemnities to protect them against any potential future tragedies. Ignore that professional clinical advice at your peril. (Interjection) 6540

I have to thank the Minister, and also the Chief Minister, for inviting me on a patient safety walk. I did it a couple weeks ago. I accepted the Medical Director’s ward recommendation. I have to say I found the staff very informative, very pleasant, and undoubtedly there was very good care in that ward.

Oddly enough, as I walked into that ward, two minutes later a member of the public walks 6545 through with one of those big cheques, donating several thousand pounds. I had a lovely chat with her and she pointed out all kinds of equipment that they have donated over the years in the memory of her father. We should recognise those people who give so much to our Health Service, our Hospital, all the time.

But what did I discover when I continued the patient walk round the ward? I discovered that 6550 this ward had loaned a piece of equipment to another ward and, through poor negligence, that piece of equipment was rendered useless. Obvious question: how much is it going to cost to replace? I never got a straight answer, but my enquiries afterwards led me to believe it is going to cost £20,000 to replace it. I would like to see that one go through a procurement.

We continue the patient walk. Patients were speaking very highly of the service, the care 6555 they had on their ward – until we come to one patient who says, ‘I’m a regular in this Hospital.’ He named four other wards he had been in, and do you know what he said? He said they were incompetent, non-responsive and rude. So, thank you for that patient walk; I learnt a lot.

This motion is about confidence. This Minister must have absolute, total confidence from the staff because there is a Department policy to self-indemnify. If you look in the Budget book, you 6560 will see this. This is about self-insuring against mistakes. At best, this surely has to be a risky strategy; and then, in Health, this is a frightening decision. I had a look at the medical indemnity annual fund and we are spending between £8.5 million and £10 million a year – set that against some of the Department budgets; set against the total budget – and that does not actually include the cost of lawyers. The other problem, going down this particular route: you have 6565 created a culture of not accepting blame, and that, sadly, rings true throughout the Department.

We heard, when we had our patient safety update on this when we received this report, about ‘never events’. Never events, in medical terms, are inexcusable actions in a healthcare setting – the kind of mistake that should never happen. Senior management would tell us we have had one in five years at Noble’s Hospital. How do we audit that? I would be interested to 6570 see what the West Midlands people have to say about that. Given the people I have spoken to, we must have numerous cases the Department is not aware of, and it just highlights once more the policy of self-indemnifying is risky. Never events… I think the Department is living in Never-Neverland, really.

In closing, I believe we need a strong, clear political vision and courage to commit to patient 6575 care and measurement principles. We must strive to improve patient outcomes and therefore true value in our Health Service. Clinicians and the executive must prioritise patients’ value over the desire to maintain their traditional autonomy and practice patterns. We must instil a culture of change. That has to be paramount. If I coin the Chief Minister’s phrase, doing nothing is not an option. 6580

I think we are all aware of the colorectal report and the… [Inaudible], and the review that is underway. The results do not look promising. They look damning. The Minister himself elected to be scrutinised for misleading parliament. The consultants’ letter: a major concern for us all. This all portrays a Department out of control, a Department out of financial control, a Department that has a strong culture against change, a reluctance to accept external 6585 examination performance management regimes, and failure to recognise true patient care and patient outcomes as a number-one priority; but ultimately, not working towards sustainable


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policies for the future. We want to restore public confidence and build a Health Service fit for purpose and fit for the future. We need change in the leadership.

Before I sit down… I am sure the Chief Minister will want to say something. I would just like 6590 to draw his attention to… There was a Written Question here, number 37, by Mr Henderson. He asked about ministerial memberships and Ministers’ collective responsibility. The Government Code also details occasions when Ministers can be excluded from the principles of collective responsibility, and the number-one item there: matters of conscience.

I beg to move, Eaghtyrane. 6595 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I stand to second this motion, and I would first like to put on record that there are so many 6600

excellent clinicians, doctors, nurses – all of them working in our Hospital – and this motion is in no way a reflection on them. (A Member: Hear, hear.) They are doing sterling work under very difficult circumstances up there, and I would hate anyone to think that this motion is a criticism of them.

I could speak to this motion for hours because I have taken a very keen interest, as I am sure 6605 Members are aware, in the problems at Noble's Hospital for some time, but I will resist that temptation.

However, to do justice to this motion, I really think we have to look at the facts. I think we have to ignore the personal attacks from the Chief Minister. (A Member: Hear, hear.) These were firstly directed at me, but have recently been directed at Mr Skelly. I do not believe that 6610 that is an appropriate way for a Chief Minister to behave, and I wonder if it was merely a ploy to detract from the real issues that we should be considering and that should be concerning us all, and the real issues that can be substantiated with facts.

So let us look at what we do know that gives us cause to say that we do not have confidence in the Health Minister. Let us look at the facts. Some of these facts have been stated before in 6615 other debates, but they have not changed – because they are facts – and they are worth restating in summary.

We know that in October last year 10 consultants wrote, setting out their concerns regarding patient safety. As the mover of this motion said, it is quite apt today: it is a year since they wrote that letter. 6620

In February, we know that the Francis Report was published. We all received a copy of an anonymous letter sent to the Minister and the Chief Executive in

February from a concerned nurse clinician. Individually, we all received a further anonymous letter from a concerned clinician, which spelled out more concerns and in more detail. The Hospital Manager is reported in the Isle of Man Examiner on 3rd June as claiming that the 6625 anonymous letter contained significant inaccuracies, but has yet to say what these inaccuracies are.

We know that in April, the Cheshire and Mersey Critical Care Network, which is part of the NHS, carried out a review of the critical care services at Noble's Hospital. Their report was received in May, and the executive summary contained 23 recommendations. Fourteen of these 6630 were urgent. They were to be completed within six months. We know that this review was only on critical care, and there were 23 recommendations.

We know that the Minister is setting up a working party, or rather has set up the working party, to look at the Francis Report. He has already told us this; we know it is fact. We also know that the anonymous letter has been passed to the same committee to look into and report back 6635 at the same time as their findings on the Francis Report. We know that, at the time, the Minister acknowledged that the committee would be reporting back in months, rather than weeks.


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I ask you, Hon. Members, are these the actions of a Minister who is taking the valid concerns about patient safety seriously? Are these the actions of a Minister who is acting quickly in response to those concerns? I think not. 6640

Allegations of such a serious nature deserve and demand immediate action. The Tynwald Standards and Members’ Interests Committee were already investigating two instances of the Health Minister possibly misleading Tynwald. These instances are: whether or not any of the 10 consultants had withdrawn their support for the letter; and whether or not the Department had contacted the Care Quality Commission. These two issues have already been stated in this Court, 6645 so I will not go into the details of these again. However, after the July sitting of Tynwald, a copy of the review into the colorectal surgery was leaked to me, which strongly suggested that it there was a third case of misleading Tynwald Members.

On 23rd January this year, the Minister and his Chief Executive gave evidence to the Tynwald Social Affairs Committee. They were questioned about the colorectal surgery review that was 6650 carried out last November. The Chief Executive stated:

‘The review has concluded that the cases were all appropriately treated and that the surgical procedures adopted were acceptable,’ And then, later, he said: ‘But there is nothing within either report, that I am aware of, that gives cause for concern.’ In the July sitting of Tynwald, I asked Minister Anderson: ‘Could the Minister confirm that, regarding this colorectal surgery review and all its implications, when you gave evidence with your Chief Executive to the Social Affairs Committee back in January, can you confirm that all the information that you gave was accurate and correct?’ The Minister replied: ‘To my knowledge, Madam President.’ I read the review into colorectal surgery and it clearly raised concerns. 6655 Subsequently, during a media interview, Mr Anderson stated: ‘We have put the steps in to rectify the areas that were giving concern to the person that came in from the outside and had a look at our whole operation.’ The review did not cover the whole operation, as he stated; it was a review of four cases by

one particular surgeon. More importantly though, why were steps put in to rectify areas of concern if, as was stated in January, there was nothing that gave cause for concern? 6660

I wrote to the Committee, asking that they investigate this instance as well, but the Chairman responded to my request saying:

‘As far as Mr Anderson is concerned, a general statement that matters are true as far as he knew (“To my knowledge”) is too vague to investigate. There needs to be a definite statement which is either plainly true or untrue.’ Whilst I am disappointed with this response, it does not alter the fact that Minister Anderson

either knew the contents of the colorectal report and did not correct the statement made by his Chief Executive, or he did not know the contents of the report because he had not read it. But 6665 surely any Minister for Health who has had to suspend an area of surgery and initiate an independent review would actually read the report himself. It was not an onerous report. It was not a pleasant one, but it was not an onerous one to read. It was not that long. I would have thought he would have made time to familiarise himself with the contents.


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So, Hon. Members, there are really only two choices here: the Minister either misled the 6670 Committee by not correcting the statement of his Chief Executive; or he was not sufficiently interested in his own Department, because he did not read such an important report. I believe that neither of these choices is acceptable, and I believe that there is no choice other than to support this motion

Following the leaking of the report into colorectal surgery, nine MHKs signed a letter asking 6675 the Chief Minister to replace Minister Anderson. Several MHKs went to see him in person to discuss the letter, and he told them that he needed until the end of the summer to sort things out. The end of the summer came and went and was there was still not even a formal acknowledgement from the Chief Minister, never mind a response. There was no choice left but to table this motion. 6680

I know that I am not alone in believing that, if the Chief Minister allowed a free vote, a number of Ministers would support this motion; and there is no reason why a free vote should not be allowed. If it were a matter of policy, then I am sure that the Chief Minister would apply the same reasoning as he did with Sefton Group. And if I may remind Members of what the Chief Minister said on 23rd April this year, regarding the Sefton Group, he said: 6685

‘It is appropriate that the directors who created this situation should be obliged to stand down.’ The situation at the Hospital is very similar. Those in charge have created the current

situation and should either do the decent thing and stand down, or should be dismissed. But this is not a vote on policy. This is about whether a Minister, Mr Anderson, has the

confidence of Tynwald; and we will see, when it comes time to vote, if the Chief Minister has allowed a free vote or not, or if there is any Minister brave enough to vote with their conscience 6690 and represent their constituents rather than representing the will of the Chief Minister. Or will we see collective responsibility used inappropriately yet again? (A Member: And again.) I do hope not, because this is far too important. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

This situation has highlighted exactly why collective responsibility has to change. In its current form, it is corruptive. When an MHK becomes a Minister, his first loyalty is no longer to 6695 the people he represents. (A Member: Rubbish.) His first loyalty is to the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers – and to those who are saying ‘rubbish’, let’s see how many vote with the backbenchers on this motion and who toes the line. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) (A Member: Absolutely.)

This leads to the arrogance that we have witnessed by the Chief Minister: he is not listening 6700 to the 10 consultants who wrote of their concerns; he is not listening to the MHKs who wrote to him in July; he is certainly not listening to the people of the Isle of Man; and he is not listening to the staff – or, if he is, he is listening to the wrong ones – at Noble’s Hospital. It is unbelievable arrogance, but an arrogance that grows under this corruptive system of collective responsibility, because he knows he can get away with it. 6705

I have no doubt that the Chief Minister will say that he did listen and that is why he has spent time at the Hospital and time talking to staff there during the summer. But why would he do this if he had the confidence in his Minister? And what has happened since? I am led to believe that there is a mad scramble to get policies and procedures put in place before the independent review starts, but there has been no real, tangible action. 6710

Hon. Members, if our Hospital was being managed properly, we would have satisfied patients; and indeed many are, but there are many more who are not. In fact, in the last five years there have been over 900 complaints about the Health Service. Over nine hundred complaints – that is just a huge amount for the size of our population. It is not in line with the norm in the UK. 6715

If our Hospital was being managed properly, we would have a fair, open and transparent complaints process – we do not; we would have good staff morale – there clearly is not; we


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would have acceptable waiting lists, and that we definitely do not. Noble’s Hospital is displaying none of these vital characteristics.

Regardless of whether or not Hon. Members have been misled by the Minister, the facts, the 6720 evidence, are overwhelming. We cannot have confidence in either the Minister or his executive management team. And I will say again this is absolutely no reflection on the staff at Noble’s Hospital. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) There are many excellent nurses and doctors who are trying their best, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and I do not envy them. They have got a very difficult task to do in very difficult circumstances and we should congratulate them, but we should also 6725 show that we have listened to them, we have listened to their problems. We have all been contacted by many patients and their relatives, some who have heart-wrenching tales to tell, and we must show them that we have listened.

Hon. Members, I know this is a difficult vote today, but we have to ask ourselves do our loyalties lie with the Minister, or do they lie with those who have been let down by what can 6730 only be described as appalling management. Whether the Minister has been misled himself by the hospital management or whether he has deliberately misled us will be determined by the Standards Committee in due course, but that is almost irrelevant. The facts of this matter are clear and unequivocal. The current situation cannot be allowed to continue.

Hon. Members, I urge you to support this motion. Let us together send out a very clear 6735 message to all those people who deserve our support. Let us prove to them that we have listened to you and we are taking action.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne. 6740 Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I think if I could begin just by commending the two speeches that we have just heard: they

have been well put together, there has been a lot of thought gone into them, and quite clearly both the Members who have spoken speak with some passion and certainly a great amount of 6745 integrity – I am absolutely sure of that. And inevitably there is a ‘but’ going to follow this, isn’t there. The ‘but’ is that things are not as simple, I believe, as the Members make out.

Picking the worst examples of problems in any Department is a relatively easy thing to do. If you wanted, I could give you a fantastic critique of how badly my Department – Environment, Food and Agriculture – is performing. I know where all the problems are in that Department, and 6750 they are significant. We have got big issues that we need to deal with. (Interjection) Is that my fault? Is that my fault, as Minister, that we have not been able to come up with a perfect system? Is that really good enough reason for me to then face a vote of no confidence, because I am not able to deliver a perfect system in my Department?

If that is the case, then quite frankly we may as well just shut up shop, as far as Government 6755 is concerned; because that is what I fear that this motion will lead to, and that is where I believe perhaps my hon. colleague for Rushen, Mr Skelly, has got this wrong. If we are going to sack Ministers for not being able to run a perfect system with the limited resources that are available to them, then it is not going to end with the Health Minister – every single Minister will be up for grabs. Mr Skelly, Hon. Member for Rushen, has commended the Social Care Minister; but I do 6760 know that some of our friends from Onchan have less than favourable things to say about the Social Care Minister, so perhaps the next thing is (Interjection) there will be a motion down against the Minister for Social Care.

I am not, by any means, wishing to belittle the concerns that I know exist about our Health Service, but I think we all know that there are concerns. We all know that there are significant 6765 problems that need to be dealt with in the Health Service. I think we all know that the current model of funding the Health Service is no longer fit for purpose. We all know that there are vast and hugely significant advances in medical science, which are quite clearly unaffordable. We know that the population is living longer. We know that there are huge and increasing demands


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on the Health Service. We do know all these things. The question, really… and I know the Hon. 6770 Member for Douglas South made it clear in her speech. She mentioned that the motion is about confidence in the Hon. Member for Glenfaba. It is not about the future of the Health Service; it is about whether Tynwald actually has confidence in the Minister.

The question, really, that I am posing to Members, and the one I would like Members to think about… And yes, you can all turn round and say, ‘Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he; he’s a 6775 Minister,’ and if that is what you want to say, so be it. I am only putting my opinions, and these are my opinions – they are not ministerial diktats from the Chief Minister; these are my opinions. If we go down this route based on the information that we have had so far, then every single Minister will be up for grabs as we go through the remaining three years of this parliament. That is not a sensible way for us to try and run Government. 6780

I fully accept the rights of Members to bring forward motions, and certainly if there are motions that Members wish to bring forward, critical of certain aspects of the delivery of healthcare, then that is, I would have said, the better way forward if that is the way that Members wish to go. But in relation to this, we have already heard that the Hon. Member for Glenfaba has referred himself to the Members’ Standards Committee. Effectively, we are being 6785 asked to provide the sentence before we have actually heard the verdict, which I think is again an unfortunate way of doing things. I always thought that we had the opportunity to prove whether we are guilty or innocent before we actually pass sentence.

There were a few things that my colleague, the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly, mentioned which set alarm bells ringing for me. I think the Hon. Member painted a fairly gloomy 6790 picture about the ability of the Minister to run the Department of Health, the slimmed-down Department of Health; but the Hon. Member for Rushen also suggested that it would be a good idea to remerge the Department of Health with the Department of Social Care. So we are basically saying the Department of Health is probably too big to be effectively managed, but let’s add in Social Care into that as well. I am really not sure how that is going to help. 6795

Another one that was mentioned was the whole self-insurance thing. I certainly know that that was something, when I was Member for Health, which is quite some years ago now, that was foisted on us by Treasury. Treasury said, ‘No, you have got to go out to the private sector to be insured by the private sector.’ We went out to the private sector and within about three years we ended up paying more in insurance premiums than we were when we were doing the 6800 self-insurance. So, actually, self-insurance was proved to be a lot cheaper; but I am sure the Hon. Member will be aware of that from his research.

The message that I got from the Hon. Member for Rushen was that we needed more bean counters, we needed more middle management to effectively deal with all the information, the management information in the Hospital, which again seemed to run a bit counter to what a lot 6805 of Members are calling for.

I know that people want to shoot the messenger; they do not like hearing these words. They are my words. They are not the Chief Minister's words, they are not even the Health Minister's words; they are my own words.

I believe it is incumbent on this Hon. Court to be able to prove, once and for all, absolutely 6810 clearly that the Minister has done something quite significantly wrong if it wishes to pass a vote of no confidence in the Minister. Whilst I have heard some very good speeches, very impassioned speeches and speeches which clearly outline a number of the concerns that we all know about in terms of the way the Health Service is run, I am not convinced that I have heard evidence which condemns the Health Minister. 6815

I look forward to the rest of the debate. Mr Watterson: Hear, hear. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Teare. 6820


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Mr Teare: Thank you, Madam President. Before I progress, I want to make it abundantly clear it is my personal opinion, there has been

no direction given and I have volunteered because I feel this is a matter of principle. I have been impressed by Minister Anderson. He is a gentleman of the highest integrity and 6825

no-one should doubt his motives or his sincerity. I am sure that he meant it when he said that he would stand down if it was found that he had misled Tynwald. As my hon. colleague from Rushen has said, the jury is still out on that and yet we are being asked to pronounce the sentence.

As the immediate past Minister of what was then the DHSS, I can appreciate more than most 6830 the problems which confront a Minister for Health: rising patient numbers; ageing population – the number of over-65s will double in the next 20 years; and there are more expensive drugs and procedures. This will lead to an increase in the percentage of the Health budget spent on the over-65s, rising from 30% to 47%.

I feel that Minister Anderson has responded to the challenges, but he is a modest man – he 6835 does not boast about his achievements. These achievements have had a direct positive benefit on patients on the Island, which include the opening of a dedicated stroke unit at Noble’s, the establishment of an on-Island pacemaker service, and more recently the introduction of bowel cancer screening.

Comment was made by Mr Skelly about a lack of financial control in the Department; 6840 however, the evidence would draw a completely opposite conclusion. During the last three years, his team has delivered significant savings by mainly making better use of resources. For example, overtime savings of £1 million; drug savings of £1.6 million; £1.5 million on more efficient management, including lean processes; £350,000 and six headcount savings in head office staffing and a range of other measures that have enabled resources to be diverted to the 6845 frontline delivery of services to take care of those patients and to deliver more procedures for more people. These savings have been recirculated to sustain day-to-day services, but also to develop services such as the new renal unit in Ramsey, the introduction of bowel cancer screening and the HPV vaccination programme. Indeed, Noble’s has increased its capacity to cope with demand; a necessary change, given that over the last three years the number of day 6850 cases has increased by 10%, outpatient attendances increased by 8% and pathology requests increased by 11%.

I would ask Hon. Members to reflect: what do you expect to achieve by this motion? Changing a Minister, in my opinion, will change nothing, especially now. The Minister sets strategy his officials implement. Any new incumbent will take time to get up to speed and that 6855 process will be disruptive. We cannot afford to wait whilst a new Minister gets up to speed as reform work is well underway and needs to be completed as soon as possible. Give him the opportunity to do the job. We need continuity and to support the reviews which are currently being undertaken. The Department needs to get on with the job and the present Minister needs to get on with it. Further disruption will only adversely impact on both patient and staff morale. I 6860 would suggest that we need to think of them first.

Only the Members of this Court who are in the Department of Health team have detailed knowledge about the running of the Hospital and we should be very careful about political interference from Members who have, at best, limited knowledge.

Imagine, for example, the different position we might now be in had we taken heed of the 6865 objection to the changes to the provision of a dedicated breast surgeon at Noble’s. The changes implemented by Minister Anderson and his team have shown themselves to be for the best; not only for breast cancer patients, but for all patients attending the Hospital, who now have the benefit of there being four general surgeons on call at Noble’s, as opposed to three previously – a standard of care, I might add, expected by the Royal College of Surgeons in London. The 6870 appointment of a general surgeon with an interest in breast care for the Island has enabled a reduction in the general surgeons’ on-call commitments to a more acceptable 1:4, as requested by the Royal College of Surgeons, and has really made a huge difference to breast care on the


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Island. Reconstruction surgery is carried out here and the service is being shaped to what our patients need. Minister Anderson, to his credit, listened to the healthcare professionals on this 6875 issue, and even when he was under enormous pressure to give in to the campaign and to appoint a breast surgeon with no general surgery commitments, he stuck to what was right. The women and men of the Island would not have the service we have now without Minister Anderson. This decision benefited not only breast care patients but all general surgical patients.

Mr Skelly made the point that there would be an increased budget for headcount, and I 6880 would just like to deal with that. There has been a restriction on headcount, as we all know, but it has had unintended consequences, and to fill vacancies and gaps, from time to time it has been necessary to take on locum staff. Locum staff are expensive and we feel that by appointing full-time staff we will get better value and also we will, in effect, save money; so I would just like to deal with that. 6885

Mrs Beecroft also commented that we should support the view of our constituencies. I will do. I will reflect the views of my constituents. I have had many people contact me, expressing support for Noble’s and the care and the treatment and consideration that they have had there. In fact, I have had a person from off Island, who comes from Northern Ireland, say that they had service at Noble’s and the Ramsey Cottage Hospital second to none. They were absolutely 6890 surprised at the gem that we have here. So let’s not call the gem that we have here base stones, valueless. We have something here which is of value, considerable value. It is recognised as such by the majority of the population and I feel that we should support the Minister and let him carry on with the job.

By accepting this motion today we are going to change nothing. We are going to delay 6895 matters and that cannot be to the benefit of the Hospital, it cannot be for the benefit of patients, and it is definitely not for the benefit of the staff up there.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. 6900 Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. The reason I signed the letter to the Chief Minister with the other signatories had nothing to

do with any personal issues with the Minister, whom I have worked with for many years, and I have explained that to him. The reasons for this letter, as far as I am concerned, had nothing to 6905 do with the running of the Health Service, which was aired last June in this Chamber, but it was to do with the misleading of a Policy Review Committee and thus misleading Hon. Members.

What I would say is that in most advanced jurisdictions this debate would never have happened. A Minister misleading parliament would have tendered his resignation under such circumstances, and I shall explain the reasons for signing this letter a little later. 6910

However, this debate has been widened by CoMin into a Health Services debate with the intention of smoke-screening the singular objective of this letter. (A Member: Rubbish.) It is not rubbish, Minister, but that is neither… [Inaudible]

A Member: You didn’t hear the presenter. 6915 Mr Singer: Would you like me to read the letter out? A Member: You did not listen to Mr Skelly, obviously. 6920 Mr Singer: I am explaining to the Chief Minister why I signed this letter. If we are to discuss what is happening, and in fact what is not happening in the Health

Service, we should not forget the serious misgivings of the 10 consultants who wrote to the Minister expressing their concerns at management incompetence and lack of action.


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In the June debate in this Chamber, I and other Members highlighted serious failings in 6925 Noble’s as far as the treatment of patients is concerned, and since that time I have received two more serious complaints – one to do with the Hospital and one to do with primary care – and I doubt if there is an Hon. Member in this Chamber who can say that he or she has not had concerns about the Hospital expressed to them by the general public. This is not to say, as I said last time, that everything is bad. Of course not everything is bad – most things are good – but we 6930 have to recognise that not everything is good.

I highlighted a case in June where there was a systemic failure from the patient entering Accident and Emergency, continuing for more than two days. The patient could have died, and even when eventually airlifted to Walton and given immediate treatment the patient should have had here, the family was told it was still touch and go. What was then worse was that the 6935 Hospital report on this complaint showed great inconsistencies and there was a tampering with the timeline in evidence.

The failures and concerns are why it has been necessary to bring in the West Midlands commission to investigate and interview staff, but the experience I have just related gives me concern as to the openness of staff who will be interviewed, and so I have spoken to 6940 Jane Eminson, the leader of the group, emphasising the need not only to include patients but also ex-patients in the investigations, including investigating the workings of the complaints procedure. I hope I will then be able to refer people, such as those I have spoken about, to her to ensure a balanced view is obtained regarding the good and the bad. I would recommend that any Hon. Members with concerns also speak to Jane Eminson directly with their concerns, to 6945 maintain the balance.

The Chief Minister has widened the debate into one which has directly put the Noble’s Hospital services under the spotlight. The fact, I feel, that the Chief Minister felt it necessary to spend many hours in Noble’s, talking to the staff to find out about any concerns and problems, speaks volumes. I understand why he felt it necessary to do so, but what do his actions infer? 6950 What he did is not the job of the Chief Minister. He has more than enough to do in his position – that is why he appoints a Health Minister – and the fact he has had to take these steps and ask the view of the man in the street, who has seen this story unfold… He has, in fact, had to do the job of the Health Minister. So, the Chief Minister doing what he has done can be seen, to me, as a last resort. That, regretfully and respectfully, has been the undermining of confidence in the 6955 Health Service because it demonstrates quite clearly a lack of confidence in the Minister of the Department, who should have been told unreservedly ‘It’s your problem; now go and get it sorted.’

The Chief Minister – and I applaud the fact – has chosen to visit every Department of Government to familiarise himself with the way they are run. I say well done for that, but that is 6960 a completely different scenario to the reason for his many visits to Noble’s.

Let me now come to the reason why I and others signed the letter to the Chief Minister. As far as I am concerned, the letter had nothing to do with the signatories’ personal political ambitions, nothing to do with undermining the health services, (A Member: Hear, hear.) nothing to do with destabilising the Government, as we all realise the problems we face. It was to do 6965 with the actions of the Health Minister and his senior officer, who I notice he is not here tonight, misleading a parliamentary Committee with the answers they gave regarding the colorectal report.

It was a public fact that the colorectal surgery had been suspended because of the close proximity of complications that had arisen after surgery. It was a public fact that an independent 6970 assessor had been brought in, and we now know that his report highlighted mistakes and incompetencies, and this is where things started to go wrong.

The report was not published, despite what was exposed as serious surgical technique problems, and I will not go into individual case findings now, but there was an attempt to switch the focus away from the surgeon to the anaesthetic technique, which was erroneous. 6975


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I think it is important to emphasise what the Hon. Member for Douglas South said about the Policy Review Committee at its meeting on January 23rd 2013 with the Minister for Health and the Chief Executive. They were asked about the report, which was not public at that time, and were answered by the Chief Executive, who was seated next to the Minister, and Hansard records the Chief executive replying, and it is important to repeat what he said: 6980

‘The review has concluded that the cases were all appropriately treated and that the surgical procedures adopted were acceptable, and that the outcomes were to be expected,’ He then said: ‘… there is nothing within either report, that I am aware of, that gives cause for concern.’ The Minister, sitting next to him, did not contradict these statements, certainly not in

Hansard. Mr Speaker then asked whether there was any link between an earlier report on endoscopy

services and the colorectal situation, and the Minister said: 6985 ‘Not that we are aware of. We do not think there is any link there at all.’ To me, this implies that the Minister had read the colorectal report to be able to make such a

statement. As we have heard, the report came into the hands of Mrs Beecroft and that told a completely

different story to what was told to the Committee – very serious failings – and resulted, I understand, in a surgeon being sent for retraining. 6990

The Committee had been seriously misled. There are three possible scenarios here: (1) the Chief Executive had not read the report and relied on a third party to brief him, and that briefing withheld the facts; (2) the Minister did not read the report and relied on his Chief Executive; or (3) both the Chief Executive and the Minister had read the report and chose to hide the seriousness of the report’s findings. 6995

If you are a Minister or a chief executive and you had such a serious situation in your Department that warranted suspending a service and bringing in an external investigator, you would want to get your hands on the report as soon as it came through the letter box, before it even hit the floor. If it had been read carefully and thoroughly by the Minister, there is no way he could have endorsed his Chief Executive’s statement to the Policy Review Committee. 7000

Hon. Members, this is the reason for the signed letter to the Chief Minister, calling for the Minister for Health to be replaced. Whatever the reasons that caused the Committee to be misled – was it laziness, incompetence, casualness – it would not have happened if the Minister had read the report. The Minister is the Department, the Department misled Tynwald Members – end of story. 7005

What I really have to clear up are the comments being made that this matter was referred to the Standards Committee and no public statement should be made until that Committee reports. That is incorrect, as we have heard from Mrs Beecroft. The matter before the Standards Committee concerns the Minister’s statements about the letter from the consultants. There is nothing before the Standards Committee that deals with this misleading of the Policy Review 7010 Committee.

Finally, I want to address, through the chair, the Members of the Council of Ministers, who are all reported to be voting against this motion. This motion and the letter to the Chief Minister says that the signatories find it totally acceptable for a Minister unwittingly or deliberately to mislead Tynwald Members. That is what has happened. The evidence is quite clear from the 7015 report and what was said. If you choose to oppose the motion, you are endorsing that such action is acceptable. This is not a situation for misguided loyalty. I had hoped that you would not


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vote in such an unacceptable way; that the facts are quite clear and you would vote according to the facts.

The actual vote of the Council of Ministers is irrelevant if it is not a free vote, and although 7020 the motion may be lost, the true feeling of backbenchers is found in the remainder of the vote. Two thirds of the House of Keys Members signed the letter within a short timescale; and further, because of the collective responsibility vote and the way this situation has been handled, it could actually now be seen as a vote of confidence in not only the Minister for Health, but a vote of confidence in the Government, which was not the intention of the signatories of the letter to 7025 the Chief Minister. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

Thank you. The President: Lord Bishop. 7030 The Lord Bishop: Madam President, as a result of several concerns expressed in Tynwald

Court during the previous session, I agreed to be a listening ear for anyone who wished to contact me with concerns or praise for the work of our hospitals.

The ground rules were that communication should be by letter or face to face – nevertheless, I still received a few comments only by e-mail; that people were invited to meet me or write to 7035 me in confidence; thirdly, that I would not reveal personal information or names or addresses; and fourthly, that if the review group wishes to follow up any issues, I will contact the people concerned to see if they are willing to comment.

Twenty people wrote to me, some of whom sent me extensive notes; 12 others came to see me, four of whom left notes; and there were several phone conversations. Of all these 7040 comments, I believe only one was of the what we might call ‘the doctor ate my hamster’ type. In addition, representations about chaplaincy provision have been made by the Church leaders over the past three or four years.

I have been in the people business for a very long time and I know that there are complaining types. There are also far more people who put up with poor treatment but do not complain 7045 unless they are seriously provoked. The majority of us receive excellent treatment but do not get round to saying so, especially not to a Bishop.

Three people explicitly told me of their good experience at Noble's Hospital, but I am sure, from pastoral experience and personal experience, that this represents an overwhelming majority who did not think they needed to contact me. Some of those who made complaints 7050 also spoke well of some aspects of their care, particularly the nursing care.

Madam President, I want to underline that it would be wrong and a serious distortion of truth to claim that a large proportion of patients in our hospitals have received poor treatment. It is my belief that, for the large majority, our hospitals are serving the people of the Island and our visitors very well. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) 7055

Some areas, undoubtedly, do require attention and it was obvious that these seams developed even in the relatively small number of people who came to see me or communicated with me. All of these areas are complex, in which the simple solutions are unlikely to be the best ones.

Attention clearly needs to be given to four areas: first, what we might call ‘customer care’; 7060 second, staff relationships, staff management and staffing levels; thirdly, medical, surgical and nursing practice; and fourthly, funding.

Madam President, what do I conclude? Three things. First, the Health Minister, Mr David Anderson, is tackling all these issues and more, and has, as the Court knows, introduced the West Midlands Quality Review Service to work with the Department. So, we need – and excuse 7065 the pun – to be patient and wait for their reports.

Second, all organisations, without exception, as they age, become hard of hearing. It certainly is true of the Church, as it is of any other organisation. This is a fact of life. Good leaders need to be able to identify the symptoms and know when there is a need for there to be a renewal of


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culture. Knowing the right moment for a change of culture in an organisation is partly a matter 7070 of research – the review – and partly the ability of a good leader to separate himself or herself from the concerns of management, because leadership is not management; it is really about leaders seeing the wood rather than the trees.

Third, it seems to me that Mr Anderson is providing leadership, and quite frankly we ought to have better things to do than to support a motion of no confidence. 7075

Thank you, Madam President. Two Members: Hear, hear. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Bell, Chief Minister. 7080 The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, I think the starting point in all this is one that

we can all agree on: that there is a concern for the performance of some elements in the Hospital, but overall we all want to work together to make sure we can produce the best possible Health Service and services through the Hospital that we can achieve. Maybe we are 7085 going through it by different routes, but that is my belief.

I do believe, though, that the personality situation has been involved in this – and I do not accept for a minute that this is not personal – and I do think that it is unfortunate that this whole debate about the performance of the Hospital and the Health Service has been brought down to this level. 7090

Madam President, before the summer recess there was a continual stream of quite serious criticism of the performance of many aspects of the Hospital. It reflected very badly on the staff, it caused alarm amongst the patients and it has undoubtedly dented the morale of the vast majority of superb professionals, superb dedicated staff that we have working in the Hospital.

I took it on myself, as Chief Minister, to personally find out what the truth of the situation 7095 was. There were so many quite emotional comments being made and quite outrageous claims being made that I felt I had a duty, as Chief Minister, to find out first-hand what, in fact, the problems were; because, apart from the letter from the consultants, the vast majority of the staff working in the Hospital had no voice at all in this debate and I felt we had to step aside from that to find out what was going on. Therefore, I took it upon myself, with my Chief 7100 Secretary, to visit the Hospital to talk to all members, all sections of the Hospital that I could achieve over that summer period.

I have spoken to senior management; I have spoken to the majority of the consultants, including most of the 10 who signed the letter – I have spoken, I think, to over 30 consultants so far; I have spoken to clinicians; I have spoken to the frontline nursing staff; I have spoken to 7105 most of the union representatives. I have had a good cross-section and those meetings have been without the attendance of the Minister. There has been no intimidation, as has been alleged in some quarters. It has been a free and, I have to say, a very frank exchange of views between the various members of staff I have spoken to and ourselves. I am hugely grateful for the time that the staff have given to us for this exercise. We have spent hours and hours up 7110 there, sometimes quite late at night, talking to the staff; and they have, I think, appreciated the opportunity to be able to put the record straight in many areas.

There is no doubt at all that there are problems in the Hospital. One of the biggest problems is communications, and I think the style of management leaves a lot to be desired and that will be reviewed, but I have to say, after talking to a large proportion of the staff, that there has 7115 been absolutely no clamour whatsoever for the Minister to be sacked. There are concerns about management procedures, about resources, about communications, about a whole raft of internal procedures. They see the Minister, with the greatest respect, as irrelevant, frankly, in this particular debate that is going on; it is internal problems that they are dealing with.

I have listened to all the comments which have been made, and in spite of the shallow 7120 response from the Member for South Douglas, Mrs Beecroft – that it is only a show, that I am


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not taking any notice, I am not taking it seriously – I can assure you we have spent hours analysing the comments which have come out of this Hospital.

I can just give Members a brief summary of what has come out of this… and I have no axe to grind on this at all. I went into this with an open mind, because I have not been involved in the 7125 Hospital. I did not understand the procedures and so I am learning all this first hand.

We have, at the behest of the Minister, already had the West Midlands review started, and that is a fundamental first step that has to take place. I think we all must support that. They have already made their first visits to the Island and the work is underway. The first review will include the theatres, anaesthetics, the A&E department and critical care, including the air 7130 ambulance. The official review starts on 26th November and the first report is due back mid-April.

Alongside that, because of concerns being expressed, I have initiated a review of senior management structures; not the personalities, the structures in the Hospital, because that has been a regular comment – that it is overloaded, that it is overstretched. I want to know 7135 independently what is the appropriate management structure for the Hospital. We have brought Beamans in to do that. They have already started their work. They have started the review and they are expecting to report back by mid-November, so we are well down that process now.

There has been a review of the Francis Report. That has been led by the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Coleman – a very experienced Member with a good knowledge of the background to 7140 this. That report is nearly complete and ready for presentation.

One of the concerns expressed to us was the personnel control mechanism. The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly, has completely misunderstood the comments I have made previously. This is not an introduction of more money, a demand for more cash for the Hospital; this is flexibility in the personnel headcount, because they have the budget already but they 7145 cannot get the personnel approval to appoint the people that they need, and therefore the whole relationship between personnel and budget is skewed. The Department is not looking for more money; it is looking for more flexibility to enable it to appoint the people they have within the existing budget. Council has now agreed on that flexibility and that will be made available to the Hospital forthwith, which ought to help them out with a number of their problems in key 7150 appointments. But I can assure you there is no extra budget for that.

One of the problems that I did discover – and it has been mentioned, and I must admit I was quite surprised by it – is the problems with IT provision in the Hospital. That is a major issue which is limiting the performance of the Hospital in terms of having access to accurate information to be able to do proper planning. It could be argued that we should have had it. It 7155 has again been problems with budgets – there have been priorities and there have been Treasury’s demands on that – and the performance of ISD in the past as well. We are now moving forward with that quite rapidly. WiFi will be available for staff and corporate use from 22nd October – we have already agreed that – and, dependent on software testing, the IT services to the Hospital will be improved over the next few weeks. We have already put that in 7160 motion. That was a major complaint from management and the staff.

One of the other concerns has been the extraordinary length of time, in many cases, that it has taken to appoint key members of staff, and many of these key members of staff have had to come from the UK. Recruitment is very difficult anyway, even with a fair wind, but with the added problems with Work Permits and the length of time it has taken to produce Work 7165 Permits, we have in the past lost a number of key staff who otherwise would have come to the Island but they could not wait for the process to go through.

I have asked my Minister for Economic Development with some urgency to look at introducing the same flexibility for key medical professionals as we have introduced for secondary school teachers. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It solved the problem in the secondary 7170 schools. I believe it will… while not giving carte blanche to the whole of the Hospital in terms of Work Permits, in the key areas where the pressure points exist I have asked for that same


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flexibility to be introduced, and I believe we ought to see some improvements on that fairly quickly.

There is, in the Hospital, a process called PRISM, which is the internal management reporting 7175 system, and this is really where internal concerns can be expressed and passed back to management. There have been a number of criticisms about the way that is performing. We have put Internal Audit in to have a thorough review of that to make sure it is working properly and to see where it can be improved. That review has started and should be completed by the end of November. 7180

Underpinning a lot of this, and where some of the staff discontent has come in – and I can fully understand it – is the fact that the wage negotiations now have been going on… This is the third year, and the wage negotiations from three years ago still have not been completed; they have only just gone to arbitration. That has caused anxiety and stress amongst many of the staff. That is perhaps a lower-level impact on the issues, but it is just another problem which has been 7185 built up.

So, for the Hon. Member for South Douglas, who thinks I have done nothing – I am simply grandstanding and going up there for a social chat with the staff – there is a huge amount of work gone in. We are not grandstanding, we are not chasing headlines; we are trying to get the Hospital working. That is our responsibility as politicians. It is our duty to provide the best quality 7190 Health Service that we can for the people of the Island.

If I had sacked the Minister on day one, when I got the letter from the Members, what difference would that have made? We would still have had these problems to resolve. Surely it is more important to resolve these issues to get the Hospital working properly, and then we think about other issues further down the road. I do not believe that the public generally want a 7195 political witch hunt; they want to see their Hospital working to its best, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and that is what we should be committed to.

I believe the problems – there are problems at the Hospital and there is no denying it, and I will not walk away from it – and the Minister himself will agree, are caused by a wide range of problems. Some of them are, in fact, that the budgetary pressures which have been on the 7200 Department now for the last three or four years and the cuts which have taken place are starting to make themselves felt. We need to review the situation to see where we can ease the pressure. We still need to make the savings, we still need to be economic in our expenditure, but we need to know how can we get best value out of the funding that we still have available.

The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft, and I think my colleague, Mr Singer, suggested the same 7205 thing: that I broadened the whole debate out onto healthcare and moved it away from the Hospital. That completely misunderstands again the statement I am making. The point I am making, Madam President, is that a lot of the problems which are facing the Hospital are brought about by the wider problems which currently are being brought to bear by the demographic change on the Island, the growth in the ageing population, the extra demands on 7210 the services and the extra costs on the hospitals, which are all generated by the need to review the overall structure of the National Health Service. That is not the sole problem, but it is a major contributory factor to the problems which are facing the Hospital at the moment. They will not go away, and I touched on that in my comments earlier on. It is a major debate that we need to have in the Isle of Man: how do we fund the Health Service to the standard that we 7215 want for the next 20 or 30 years? I do not have the answer to that, but I think it is a debate that we have got to have. In saying that, we have also got to recognise that the first signs of those pressures are being felt by the Health Service as we speak, and on the Hospital, and that is not going to get any easier.

So I would ask Hon. Members to please step back from this issue. Look at what we are trying 7220 to achieve; look at the real problems we are dealing with. This is not a political issue; this is a serious healthcare provision funding issue, which will not go away. It does not matter which Minister you have in charge of the Department, you will have the same problems to deal with. It


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will not go away. We need a mature debate about this, Madam President, to actually work out how we are going to get through this. 7225

I believe the Minister has done a good job under very difficult circumstances. He is an honourable man; he is a dedicated, committed man to the Health Service, to providing the best he possibly can in very difficult circumstances. Allegations have been made about him deliberately misleading Tynwald or misleading the Committee. When did we change our policy, Madam President, about innocent until proven guilty? He has referred himself to the Members’ 7230 Standards Committee. The Committee has still to meet, it has not considered it yet and we have not had any report back; and yet he is already found guilty before they have even considered the matter. The Minister himself believes that he has not misled Tynwald. I believe him until I am told otherwise – and so should the rest of us, because any one of us could be in this situation at some point in the future. 7235

Madam President, there is a lot more that could be said. I do not intend to stay on my feet much longer, other than to say that I do understand what backbenchers are saying… Oh, there is one other issue… I understand what backbenchers are saying, I understand their concerns, but I have to say, from a personal point of view, the overwhelming number of contacts I have had from the public have been in support of the treatment they have had in the Hospital – that the 7240 care and the concern shown by the staff there is exemplary. Yes, there have been problems, I have had those too; but the majority have been in support of what the Hospital provides.

I would just like to touch on one final point, Madam President, just to put the situation in context. I received a letter with nine signatures, I think, at the end of July or early August, expressing their concerns about the performance of the Hospital. I then met a delegation of four 7245 or five Members in early August, who wanted to express that still further, with a few other comments which I will not add at this stage.

I asked Hon. Members… I told them then I understood where they were coming from and I asked them to give me time to do what I have just explained to this Hon. Court, which was to go to the Hospital to find out for myself first hand what the problems were and then ultimately to 7250 see if I could find a solution to it. That was the commitment I gave to those Members.

In return for that commitment, Madam President, I was promised that the letter would not be leaked to the press until I had had the chance to finish what I was trying to do. Two weeks after that meeting, the press came to me: the letter had been leaked to them, and that is where it all went wrong. 7255

So I have not, in any way, abused my position; I have not, in any way, reneged on the promise I have given to those backbenchers. But I want to make it absolutely clear that my motive right through all this has been to one end only, and that is to find a workable solution for the better performance of the Hospital.

I believe, Madam President, that measures that are already in place, which are the ones I 7260 have outlined now, and the other work which is being done with the Minister and his team in Health, will start to address that. I believe once we have got the reports back from the various reviews taking place we will be in a much better position at that point to make an informed decision as to what the future of the Hospital should be. Surely that is what the public expects of us: an informed decision based on the facts generated by a thorough investigation of the 7265 problems that exist in the Hospital today.

I would ask Hon. Members to please look at it from that perspective. Put your own personal ambition to one side; put your own, in some cases understandably, emotional approach to this to one side. We are not going to get through this, we are not going to get the Hospital working again (Interjection) based on emotion. We will only get it working again to the standards we all 7270 want based on hard fact, and I would urge Hon. Members to remember that.

Thank you.


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Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete Order Paper

The President: Hon. Members, we did not consider Standing Orders at eight o'clock, so I would like to take some guidance from you at this point. 7275

Mr Cregeen: Madam President, I beg to move that we finish the Order Paper. Mr Quirk: I beg to second, Madam President. 7280 The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members? Members: Agreed.

Minister for Health – Motion of no confidence – Debate concluded – Motion lost

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. 7285 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. Firstly, I would like to congratulate a number of speakers who have already spoken, who have

made the case, and principally my hon. colleague, Mr Skelly, who set out an excellent case as, in his case, someone who works on the other side of the sphere, in Economic Development and everything else. He always puts firm facts. He is a man of fact and he is a man of principle. 7290

He is concerned… rather than it being the usual troublemakers, like Mrs Beecroft, who has always… [Inaudible] that and sidelined. The problem here is that, for people who want to sideline this issue in order to vote against (A Member: Hear, hear.) and maintain their conscience, you have got a problem in sidelining Mr Skelly, because he is voting and bringing this forward purely out of consciousness and honesty, and that means a lot. 7295

I ask all Hon. Members, whether you are Ministers, supporters of the Government or what have you… because we all support the Government and we all support wellbeing and we all support Noble’s Hospital, just like indeed Mr Skelly is doing. So you have a problem here in rubbishing the mover, because he is unrubbishable, and I honour this man today for bringing forward and putting such a strong case. (Mrs Beecroft and another Member: Hear, hear.) 7300

If I may change from the excellent speech Mrs Beecroft gave, the excellent speeches they all made, and also the excellent speech the Chief Minister has made – and I will draw an inference on that; or even better, I will draw a theme. As we work our way through the evidence I wish to put, the theme is the Chief Minister went to Noble’s – all credit to him – and he went and spoke to a number of clinicians and other members, including unions and so on. Issues were put to 7305 him. What did he do? He came back to the Council of Ministers, he has told us, and tried to put measures in place in order to try and resolve them. He did that; he has just told you.

There were a number of issues that he listed: a major issue, problems with the IT – he mentioned what he is going to attempt to do to put that right; problems that were brought back to resolving other issues; concerns about the management procedures; and so on and so forth. 7310 The point that I am trying to say, that he has already made – he spoke himself – is he attempted and has attempted to resolve… and when I say resolve… himself within the Council of Ministers, and all credit to him.

The question is how many times did Mr Anderson go with those problems to the Council of Ministers, and what happened? What did he do – Mr Anderson – in the Council of Ministers that 7315 Mr Bell has had to go over his head and do himself? It is striking, that, because I like Mr Anderson. I have nothing against him. He is a very friendly and personable man, and he is a


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man of integrity; but he is not a man with drive and ambition and clear drive, like his Chief Minister has – like I know I have, like Mr Skelly has. He just… That is not in Mr Anderson. As some of them said – Mr Teare said, I think – he is a quiet man who goes about his business in a 7320 quiet way. That is fine, that is laudable, that is with praise – in certain areas, but not in senior leadership as a Minister of a Department that is failing. And that is the problem. Okay?

Just to elaborate a little bit further… and before I do that, I would like to mention two senior excellent staff in management – and they are here today; they have troubled themselves to come here today – and that is Mrs Keenan, the Deputy Chief Executive – and it is noted that the 7325 Chief Executive himself is not here, which is a disgrace – and Mrs Critchlow. Praise to both those ladies, who have helped me enormously with another constituency issue, which I would just like to touch on at this point.

This concerns a young boy with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. I will not go into the ins and outs of all this, but I have lived through severe failings at Noble’s and within the Health Service 7330 and within the Department of Social Care, and before that the Department of Health and Social Security, and these are serious failings of breakdowns of communication – not really serious issues to do with clinicians; and I know those ladies will agree with what I am saying – serious issues of the lack of co-ordination that I have been banging on to previous Ministers and to senior members and so on of staff. That has still not been fixed, and that simple co-ordination 7335 with a lead co-ordinator, to get this person to do that job before that person can come in and do that job.... Co-ordination happens in any sphere, anywhere. It does not happen in Health and it does not happen in Social Care. I am not blaming that on the Social Care Minister; it was there before he thought… when he was still the manager of the Sefton Hotel. Right? It is serious.

So what I am saying is lack of co-ordination. I have spoken to the Minister many times about 7340 this, spoken to him and spoken to him and told him, ‘You need to get it to this, that and the other,’ and the best help I have had is from Mrs Critchlow and Mrs Keenan, who have worked hard but are unable to actually quench it, because all of these different medical disciplines run their own show, and that has got to be broken down and put back together again. That is the basis where the Chief Minister went on about serious structural problems this morning, and he 7345 is quite right about that.

So, not too much about medical breakdowns, but structural breakdowns in management and clinical issues etc. I have heard recent mention about breakdown and shortage of anaesthetists. The surgeon cannot do his operation if there is not an anaesthetist timed in and programmed in in order to do that operation. It is as simple as that. Structural breakdown that I see, that is 7350 endemic within the health services – it is endemic – that does not appear to be able to be sorted, and possibly… The Chief Minister touched on it because there was an issue here that needed to be sorted out before you could actually sort out this issue, but that issue needs to be sorted out at the Council of Ministers.

Back to the theme: did the Minister take it back to the Council of Ministers and bang his fist 7355 on the table to say, ‘There are Health problems here: I need this member of staff; I need that log jam moving so I can do that with no extra budget.’? The Chief Minister said that. He said all of these assurances and things he has done in the time at Noble’s Hospital have been achieved without even an extra cost on budget, and it has made people’s lives easier. So, co-ordination: there is a breakdown there, all over Noble’s, with the co-ordinated care. 7360

Someone already mentioned – I think it was Mrs Beecroft – that they are still walking round the wards – and you have seen them – with all the medical files. When I go to the diabetic clinic, which is an absolutely excellent service, top dollar, with Dr Khan and all his dedicated, devoted staff… You go to the blood clinic, same again; the phlebotomists, top dollar, absolutely first class; and that is the same everywhere. But we are going on about the fact that they are able to check 7365 my blood results on the computer, but then they open the big file to see… ‘Now, where are we up to? What did I say to you last time, Mr Houghton?’ – on paper. That is because, as the Chief Minister has already said, there was a major IT problem in Noble’s. But we spent a fortune in


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this Court, Hon. Members. Do some of you remember this? (Interjection) Some of you old-timers will remember that the – 7370

Mr Henderson: Patient administration system. Mr Houghton: Yes, a huge administrative system, bought and paid for seven or eight years

ago – somewhere in that area of years ago – and it was going to take x amount… We had the 7375 presentation before we voted top dollar. We spent millions and millions of pounds on all of that and it was going to do double back-handstands and do everything you could possibly ask for. Also, it could link the doctor’s surgery in with Noble’s and everything else, which made complete sense to me and I voted for it. So where is it, and where has the money gone to – and how and what and where and when? 7380

The Minister is in charge of the Department: what has he done? What has he done? I hope the Minister gets up and states what he has done, puts his case, because no-one else knows and I certainly do not know.

Keep that theme though, Hon. Members, that I am saying: structural breakdowns. What did the Minister do? The Chief Minister has gone in and sorted a number of things out at the drop of 7385 a hat, and I am not just saying he did that easily or anything, but he actually did it and it was Council of Ministers’ level of decision-making that was required to be done. The Minister should have taken it up there and dealt with that there and then, and gone in and got his sleeves rolled up then, if I can say.

If I can move on, there is a case of a dental officer – 7390 The President: Hon. Member, could we ensure that all comment is related to the motion,

please? Mr Houghton: It is related to the motion. (Interjection) It is related to the motion, Madam 7395

President, and I will explain to you why. There is an issue of a dental officer who was suspended for 18 months – 18 long months – for

nothing. He has since resigned, but he was actually returned to work with a slap on the wrist on a couple of minor things. But he was suspended for 18 months, Madam President. It took six months. He was suspended in something like early December 2011. An investigation was only 7400 begun on him in May 2012. He was sat on his hands, costing us a fortune at home, on the equivalent of £80,000 a year, when he was perfectly capable of doing the job and they were a dentist short.

Here is the theme: I told the Minister about it day one, day two, day three – you will know what I mean when I am saying that – and I involved Mr Butt in it too. I never let go, Madam 7405 President. I kept telling the Minister, ‘Look, there is a serious issue here: get involved.’ And then he said, ‘I am sick of you, John; I will put it on to Mr Butt, because I am the ultimate arbitrator.’ So he dumped me onto Mr Butt, and he did nothing. Mr Butt looked into things and he wobbled around on this, that and the other. Instead of getting in and saying, ‘I am using my copper’s snout,’ – he used to have a good one when he was in the Police (Laughter) – and getting the job 7410 sorted, what did he do? Nothing. They all sat back on their hands and he was talked round by some senior officers: ‘He should not be in this,’ and ‘He should… Your job is to do this, and your job is to do that.’ I agree. We are paying senior officers to do these jobs, but… ‘but’ not in terms of meaning Mr Butt. (Laughter) But the thing is I told the Minister, and the thing is whatever the Minister says he knows about me, he knows that I have got integrity. When I have got an issue I 7415 am like a dog with a bone: I never let go and I keep going.

There was a lot of tomfoolery in that. I will go no further. I will be doing nothing with names, but there was a lot of crooked behaviour that went on there, that is now under investigation, I do hope, and I have yet to give evidence to the investigating officer into the background of that.


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The point I am making, and the theme, and the reason I am making this theme, is I brought it 7420 to the Minister’s attention – nothing was done, not even tried. And then I saw this e-mail, which is part of the inquiry and all that which I have brought to the attention of Mr Butt; and this e-mail, from one of the senior administrative officers, not here tonight… but basically trying to downplay the whole situation and… ‘That Mr Houghton is being a… This is nonsense, and he is just causing a nuisance,’ and this, that and the other; and, ‘Believe me, because I know better 7425 than him.’

Who was right in the end, Madam President? I was. The man was returned to service after 18 months and about £150,000-odd worth of salary lost, plus the cost of bringing in a reserve, a locum, to do his work etc.

There were clear issues that needed to be dealt with and, as the Chief Minister has already 7430 said, dealt with fast. They were not, and we lost all of that money; and that is just one suspension, one minor issue. The Minister did nothing, Mr Butt tried: nothing achieved. Nothing achieved.

So we are back now to the theme, and that is what I am saying here. Minister Anderson – nice man, love him to bits, but I would not… Well, somebody said he is as much use as a 7435 chocolate fireguard. That is no good in a Minister. We need action in that place to get things going.

The President: Hon. Member, just consider your words. 7440 A Member: Hear, hear. Mr Houghton: Madam President, what I would further say, to you too, is there are an awful

lot of excellent staff – and a number of them here tonight – who want to do things and get things going, and it is driving them nuts, the system where issues that need to be properly co-7445 ordinated at higher places, such as Council of Ministers or at the Department, need dealing with so they can do their job properly. So I am not blaming certain senior managers; I am not. They are, I am sure, as much frustrated as I am. You can tell it on their faces when you go and see them; you can see the body language yourself.

So there are serious failings here. You have got a very nice Minister, but he would not say 7450 boo to a goose. That is what this means. Rather than going and fighting in the Council of Ministers for what he did, just like Mr Bell did after a short visit or two… a number of visits that he did up at Noble’s.

That is the reason, Madam President, that I will be voting for the motion. Thank you. 7455 The President: Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. As Tynwald considers these very serious matters this afternoon and this evening, it is only

right that we must put aside personalities and consider the issues in a manner befitting the high 7460 level of public concern that remains, both about the care provision and the management and leadership of our Health Service.

Personally, I am disappointed that this debate has somehow been muddied by personal attacks, and I support the mover of this motion and believe that he is undertaking this motion in the best interests of his constituents and the wider Island community. It was surprising to hear 7465 the Chief Minister state publicly that Mr Skelly is only interested in his self-promotion. Whatever conversation did or has taken place between the two of them, and whatever the interpretations of that conversation, it is only the Chief Minister himself who has the power to decide who should or should not be a Minister. Therefore, it was irrelevant and is irrelevant whether or not Mr Skelly did or did not state that he would be prepared to do the job, if asked; as indeed it is 7470 irrelevant if the Chief Minister allegedly said that he had no-one to replace the Minister with.


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These are private conversations that take place behind closed doors and they should remain thus. I know that other Members have indeed trod this route and had private conversations with the Chief Minister on both Health and other issues, and I hope that they can be trusted to remain private from both sides. 7475

Madam President, I congratulate the 10 Members of the House of Keys who were prepared to sign a letter to the Chief Minister in July, demanding that confidence be restored in the leadership of the Health Service by removing the Minister. Mr Houghton, Mr Skelly, Mr Singer, Mr Quayle, Mr Thomas, Mr Karran, Mrs Beecroft, Mr Hall and Mrs Cannell: you have all stood together, and it is a shame that today's debate has happened, when it could so easily have been 7480 avoided. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

Of course, in June of this year, this very place engaged in a difficult and awkward debate, during which the very soul of the Health Service was laid bare. I was reflecting on the speech that I gave on that day, and to be perfectly honest I feel in many ways that I could deliver the same speech again today. I will, however, spare the Court the agony of listening to the whole 7485 speech, save that I will repeat the final three paragraphs in which I stated thus:

‘These matters now have to be put right, and they can be put right with firm and immediate leadership and action. That action has to include a full audit and review, and therefore I will be supporting the motion. But I cannot leave it at that. The warnings have been loud and clear, the questions have been loud and clear, and yet we have been faced seemingly with a Minister and management somehow in denial that there is a problem. It is now up to the Chief Minister to restore public confidence, to take the necessary steps to ensure that the leadership is in place, to ensure that a transition can begin to enable a restoration of trust and faith in our Hospital and medical services. This is not a tough decision. I hope he is listening.’ I think it is safe to say that the Chief Minister was not listening and has not listened, at least

in the way that I hoped he would. Of course, I can now justify further those remarks, having been party to the leaked colorectal 7490

report and read carefully the words spoken to the Policy Review Committee by the Chief Executive with the Minister in close attendance. Those words summarise that there were no problems in respect of the colorectal report; but, in fact, as we know from those of us who have read it, the report suggests very differently. One has to conclude that either the Minister and the Chief Executive had not, in fact, read the report, or did not understand the implications of the 7495 report. Either way, it was not appropriate for the Minister not to have been able to comment with some authority about a report that had been written following the shutting down of the colorectal operations in November preceding.

Additionally, of course, we are waiting for the Standards Committee to report on whether or not the Minister misled the House regarding the consultants’ letter written earlier this year 7500 regarding standards of clinical care. It is, in my view, imperative that the Tynwald Standards Committee acts with urgency and commitment when matters are brought before it, (Several Members: Hear, hear.) particularly so when the integrity of an elected political representative is brought into question.

7505 Mr Henderson: A big slap on the hand. Mr Cannan: It is therefore unfortunate the Committee has not dealt with matters sooner; (A

Member: Hear, hear.) nevertheless my mind is made up, as it was in June and as it was in July when I signed that letter. 7510

I just want to put all that aside for a moment and just talk a little bit about confidence, because these pressures have been building up over two years. There have been many questions about many issues, including around waiting lists; and, rather like a boil that needed and does need lancing, the pressures have grown and grown. I am afraid that, in my mind, and I think in many Members’ heart of hearts, we know that public confidence has been damaged. 7515 Whoever you blame for all this, or whoever you regard at fault, the bottom line is that public


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confidence has been damaged, and I am sorry for the hardworking staff in our medical services, and indeed for many members of the public who have looked at this debate – which has been ongoing now for some months – with some incredulity.

But I think the bottom line is this: that in order to restore confidence, one has to make 7520 decisions at the very top; and in order to begin the process of restoring confidence and transition of the Health Service back to the standards that we all know it is capable of, then unfortunately one has to make that ultimate decision to replace the leadership.

It is not just in politics, but in any walk of life this happens; and although I understand what Mr Gawne and Mr Teare were saying, I am afraid that there has to be some accountability when 7525 you are a Minister, and that things cannot be brushed over, and that we and the public have to have confidence that, as a Minister, you are in control of matters and are able to provide the leadership necessary to reinvigorate failing Departments and to enable those Departments to fully function in the manner that we expect them to.

I know this is a tough decision, and I know particularly that the Minister, as everybody has 7530 acknowledged, does, I believe sincerely, act with sincerity; but public confidence must be restored. There is only one way this can be done, and it is not by the Chief Minister trying to fill in the gaps and undermining the man in the role. I think the motion and the letter that was signed originally are very clear on this point and – because I believe in my heart of hearts, and I know that many Members will believe in their heart of hearts that ultimately we have to start 7535 restoring public confidence, and that to do that we have to change the top – I will be supporting Mr Skelly’s motion this afternoon.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Butt. 7540 Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. I would actually repeat what Mr Cannan has just said – that I could repeat the speech I made

in June last year as well, but I will try not to do so. We have had some excellent speeches from both sides of the debate today. However, I think 7545

the debate we are having is on the wrong subject. It should not be about the position of one person or one Minister; it should be about the Health Service as a whole – and, in fact, I will go further than that and say it is about resources.

The Health Service has had a budget increase every year of between 1% and 2% for the last three or four years, but that does not reflect the real cost of maintaining a modern Health 7550 Service which is developing and changing all the time. I have been there with the Minister for three years now, and in those three years… in recent months, we have had procedures come to us for approval which did not exist three years ago; they just were not on the horizon. We have had to find money for them. It is almost impossible to do so, in some cases. We have to say, ‘We will bring that in, but what will we stop doing instead?’ That is the debate we are having at the 7555 moment.

Over the last seven or eight years – or five or six years, rather – the Department has made savings of about £8 million just to stay still, to stay where we are. I think the Chief Minister said this is beginning to bite. I think, as Mr Denis Healey said years ago, the pips are beginning to squeak, because it is not sustainable, with the modern Health Service developing like it does, to 7560 keep bringing in new procedures on the same funding, or similar funding, time after time. And when the pips squeak, they often are the clinicians themselves – the people who are trying to bring in things, the people who are trying to make things better.

The 10 consultants who signed that letter did so with the best motives possible, because they thought things needed to change. I will repeat part of my speech from June: part of the genesis 7565 of their report, or their letter, was to do with not enough consultants working in A&E – which we know is a fact – and, in particular, proper qualified expert theatre staff working in the theatres.


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The management were aware of this and they did come with a business case to say we need four or five – they call them OPDs – operational technicians in the theatres. We need four or five of these to provide a 24-hour campus cover – five headcount and £400,000 or so to provide 7570 that. They came to the Department, they came to us and said, ‘We need this: we need this headcount and this money,’ and we had to say, because things are very tight, ‘Go away and try and find it from your own headcount and your current money; try and resolve that.’ They went away and came back a second time and said, ‘We cannot find the headcount; we cannot find the money.’ 7575

So by this time, of course, the consultants, the people working in that area, are getting very frustrated, and quite rightly so. They see management is not helping – which they were; they tried their best. Politically, we could not help because we did not have the finances. We have other priorities. The likelihood of an event happening in the theatre, where we need these extra people is… It could happen at any time, but in practice it is probably once in a blue moon, or 7580 once a year or once every two years. Could you actually spend that money on the off chance that it is going to happen? Yes, we should have done; and if we had the money, we would have done. But this is the sort of thing that gave the clinicians frustrations.

In my three years in the Department I have had… I will not say secret meetings, but I have had meetings with consultants and nurses and staff in various areas, one to one, where they 7585 have told me their concerns and what they think can be done. Most of them wanted to make things better and most of them were really genuine about that, and they came to me with great ideas about how we could save money and how we could improve services. On most occasions, I brought the ideas back, but on most occasions we have not got the money or the headcount to make these things happen. 7590

Some we did: we have got in bowel cancer screening; we have got in the renal unit at Ramsey; we have got a pacemaker service on Island; we have now got four people doing hips and knees etc and improved processes. Things have improved in some ways, but lots of these things they come to us with ideas for we have to put to one side and say, ‘Sorry, we cannot do that.’ Therefore you get frustrations, and it is quite understandable when clinicians, especially if 7595 they come from the UK, working in big hospitals where they have different standards or higher standards – or higher services, should I say – come here and they think, ‘This is as not as good as we were used to before.’ So, understandably, they are upset.

Bear in mind the Isle of Man Health Service has nearly a million contacts a year through the primary care and through the Hospital, and we get 230, 240, 250 complaints per year. Much has 7600 been made of the fact that it is one every other day. This is not out of line with what UK hospitals and UK trusts have; it is a similar sort of ratio and it has been the same for years. There has been a bit of a spike in the last few months, admittedly – perhaps because of all the publicity lately – but our services in the Hospital, when you compare them with UK trusts, are not a lot different. In fact, in most areas – MRSA, c. difficile, infections etc – we are always at the better 7605 end of the scale.

I will tell you one end of the scale we are not at the better end of: the actual money provided. Of all the western countries – the top 25 countries in the west; the civilised countries – the Isle of Man is at the very bottom end of expenditure per person per population. We are just behind the UK. The countries with the highest expenditure, of course, are Scandinavia, France 7610 etc, where they have a high tax regime. So we have the problem of working out do we have a higher tax regime and have a good Health Service; or do we somehow, with a low tax regime, maintain a good Health Service. That is the problem we have, and we are trying to do that. We have been trying to do that for some years. I worked with Mr Teare in the DHSS with similar problems. In fact, I would say there is no difference between six or seven years ago, when 7615 Mr Teare was the Minister, and the current Minister: they have had the same problems to face over and over again.

I will try to be brief, Madam President. I have been privileged to work in several Departments in my time in Tynwald. Working in Health is the most privileged position I have


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been in and it is also the most complicated. There are so many things to learn and find out 7620 about, so many variables in every field. We had a meeting on Friday morning for four hours, the monthly meeting, and I just sat there amazed at how many things we were dealing with and talking about. I have two other meetings every week as well, a similar thing. It is a very complex area, and with all due respect to those of you on the outside of Health, it is not easy to come in and get a view of how it works without having spent time there, which I think is why the Chief 7625 Minister spent some time to find out how does it work.

In this Chamber today, in this Court today, we have, I think, three former Ministers for Health, who perhaps know what I am talking about. We have Members who have been in Health as well. Mr Henderson, who is now in the Department, had previous experience in his working life of how Health worked. 7630

Mr Henderson: Many years, Dudley. Mr Butt: Yes, many, many years. He has come in. I think it is his first time in Health, and I

should imagine that he has had his eyes opened about the complexities of what has to be dealt 7635 with. (Interjection by Mr Henderson)

The Hospital in the Isle of Man is a compromise Hospital, as I said in the last speech. We are trying to do what we can do with the resources we have. If this was in the UK, if we were a county in the UK, this Hospital would not exist here. It would be too small. We would not be able to provide the services we do. I would say be careful what you wish for, because one day it 7640 might happen that we actually have to send more and more people away to England, even for routine procedures, and then we will end up with a very poor Health Service and a very expensive Health Service.

I would just like to come back to the mover of the motion, just to clarify a few points he made. He said, first of all, there is a culture against change within the Health Service. That is 7645 possibly true in some areas, and I will perhaps come to those in a minute; but actually the Health Service is changing day by day. Every time you come to work there is something new happening: there have to be new procedures; there have to be new protocols written.

The Minister, this morning, in his written… answering a Question, was asked how many procedures have come in over the last few months, and he listed about 20. There are another 20 7650 more to go, because all the time things change. The UK change their systems: we have to follow suit. The UK bring in new services and we cannot always follow suit, because we cannot always bring in new services.

I regret to say that most of the new services we have brought in in the last two years have been mostly aided by charities, because we have not had the funding ourselves to do them. The 7655 renal unit has been helped by charities, the wards in Ramsey Cottage Hospital have been helped by charities, the pacemaker service has been helped by charities. It would be nice to actually have the money to do them ourselves, without relying on the public to do so. We are very glad they do. We had to turn down, last year, providing diabetic pumps for children, because we did not have the funds to provide them. Now a charity has come forward and found the money for 7660 us, which is very good news.

Mr Skelly also said ‘Where is the clinical governance?’ He read some report where he could not find it. I can tell him and the Court that clinical governance is rooted in the Health Service; it is part of the structure of the Health Service. There are clinical governance committees all over the place – audit committees. It is part of the mantra and the bible of how you run a health 7665 service. Clinical governance comes top of the list, because clinical governance means safety for patients.

He also said that the review team that is coming over to review the service was only brought about because of the pressure from this Court. In fact, if you go back through Hansard you will find that in April 2011 there was a Question asked, I think by Mr Karran, about a review, and it 7670 was stated then that we were trying to find people to do the review in April 2011. That has been


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ongoing for some time. There was an issue also of finding the finance to do it, which was also part of the problem for trying to get things sorted out.

Mr Skelly also mentioned about the Health Service and absenteeism and sickness etc. I can tell Mr Skelly and the Court that the Health Department is leading the way on absenteeism 7675 within Government. Our Director of Operational Health, Mrs Carole Astbury, provides services for most of the Departments of the Government and provides routines and services to try to reduce sickness absence throughout the service, throughout the Government, and that has been achieved, if you read the Civil Service Commission Report which came with our pack this month. That is down to the good efforts and mostly the work of Carole Astbury and her team in Health. 7680 So Health do lead the way.

Mr Skelly also mentioned the failure of IT, and I agree with him on that, but he said we were blaming other people. It is a fact that there has not been the funding to provide the IT that we need to get the information which we need. We can do it by… [Inaudible] down through paperwork, we can get some information, but we have not had the IT. And part of that was that 7685 in the old Hospital, in Westmoreland Road, they had their own servers, their own IT structure, their own staff, and they carried on doing things to a fairly satisfactory level. When we came to the new Hospital, or shortly after, the servers were taken away to ISD, and then it became a problem to get anything in place, because… I am not saying ISD were obstructive, but it became a lot more complicated and a lot more expensive. 7690

Mr Houghton mentioned about how the Chief Minister has gone up there and made things happen and we are getting WiFi in the Hospital. We would have loved WiFi years ago, but it does not come free. When we went to ISD about the WiFi on the wards, we were told £13,000 a ward, which is £180,000 roughly for the 14 or 15 wards. We have not got £180,000 to put into WiFi. If the Chief Minister has managed to do that without spending money, I would like to know 7695 how, but that was the sort of problem we had: do we spend £180,00 on WiFi, or do we spend it on clinical services? The decision has always been, because there is an increase in demand, we spend it on clinical services.

The population has increased in the last five years; the Census shows that. We have got four or five thousand people more. Services have become more expensive, drugs have become more 7700 expensive, heat and light has become more expensive above the rate of the increase we have had as a Department, so we are having to make economies, making those pips squeak.

Mr Skelly also said there is a lack of financial control. Here is the story on that. When I first came into Tynwald in 2005, the first Budget I came to, the then Minister for Health asked for a supplementary vote of £8 million overspend, and that was granted. The second year, the 7705 Minister came back and asked for £6 million, and that was regarded as a success, really, because they had cut down the overspend. Since then, the Department of Health has come in under budget every year, including in Mr Anderson’s time. Our financial officer has made sure that we kept on top of everything and we have come in on budget. It would have been lovely, actually, to come in over budget and provide all these things that everybody wants; but we have been 7710 very strict on financial regulation – we have had financial control. We do not have the information we need for everything we want, that is true, and that is mostly due to IT systems, but we have not been profligate with our money; we have tried to spend it as wisely as possible.

There are problems at the Hospital and there are 230-240 complaints a year. Every one of those complaints is not good, because they need to be investigated. It is usually somebody who 7715 has been upset or had some problems, and we should not take them lightly. Some of those complaints are serious matters which eventually end up with the Independent Review Board. We must remember that the complaints procedures in the Hospital, of which there are two or three versions, are also backed up by the Royal College of Surgeons, the Midwifery Council, the professional bodies that work with the clinicians and the clinicians are responsible for them as 7720 well, so there are lots of checks and balances to make sure that we are doing what we should be doing.


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If I could just turn to the actual motion itself, which is about the current Minister, Mr David Anderson – I have spent a life, as Mr Houghton said before, dealing with strange people and I know how to spot somebody who is not right, and I can honestly say that 7725 David Anderson, the Minister, is as straight as they come. There is nothing dishonest about that man at all. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) The Bishop, this morning, in his prayers, said something about ‘we pray for the integrity of these people to manage our affairs’: if you want anybody in this Court with integrity, that is the one man who has got total integrity, and I hope all of you who know him will accept that. I have worked with him for three years and I have 7730 worked with, I think, seven Ministers altogether, and I will definitely say he is in my top two (Laughter) – so once you know who one is, you can all work out who the other one is – and I trust him.

When we had the reshuffle in the spring, I went for my meeting with the Chief Minister, as you all perhaps did: ‘Where would you like to go? Where do you feel you could work best?’ I 7735 knew about these problems. I knew about the consultants’ letters, I knew about the colorectal report, we knew about all the issues that were bubbling up – and, in fact, that is no different to three years ago, no different to when I was with Mr Teare six years ago. All these things are happening all the time. I knew what might be coming, and I said to the Chief Minister, ‘Without doubt, I want to stay in Health, because I want to work with Mr Anderson, whom I trust 7740 implicitly, and I want to try and make a difference.’

It is a very complicated area, but we have made a difference. We have saved 14 lives this year, we think, with our bowel cancer screening. That is a real plus in the Isle of Man. We are having people in the Isle of Man having their pacemakers dealt with here, instead of having to go across – elderly people – to England. We have made a big difference in lots of areas. 7745

So I support the Minister totally, and you may blame me as being part of the… If you perceive a lack of direction in the Health Service, blame me as well. But I can tell you, you do not deal with consultants and senior people who are experts in their field by shouting at them and kicking them and telling them to behave themselves. It does not work that way. They have their own capability procedures which they have to go through. You cannot force things on people of 7750 that rank.

I will just finish off with a comment from Miss Millie Bello, the consultant breast surgeon. She came to the presentation 10 days or so ago. Miss Bello, if anybody knows her, is no fool and she does not suffer fools gladly, and she is certainly not a lackey of the establishment or the management of the Hospital, and she is very blunt on occasions. Miss Bello, in the 7755 presentation… at the end of it, she stated that she has worked in two of the biggest trusts in the UK – I think it was Leeds and Nottingham. She said when she came here she had full co-operation from the Minister and the Chief Executive, who came to see her to see how she had settled in – and actually I did as well – and she says that, having had time in Leeds and in Nottingham, this was the best Hospital she has worked in. She has also worked in lots of other 7760 hospitals apart from those two. She says the MRSA rates here are low, the c. difficile rates here are low, and the most important thing she said: ‘When I had a problem at the big hospitals, I could not get near the Chief Executive to discuss problems; here, I have a totally open door to the Hospital management and I can speak to them about anything, and they do listen.’ And when she came to me and the Minister, initially, about trying to get a co-ordinated breast unit, 7765 and then went to the Hospital Manager, she said, ‘I have had nothing but help ever since then – the management were willing to listen here and help matters when they need to.’ She was impressed with the Isle of Man. Miss Bello is not a stooge for the Department of Health, she is her own independent person; and if anybody would like to meet her, I am sure she would give you chapter and verse about the good things – and she will tell you where the faults and 7770 mistakes are as well.

Just finishing off with the consultants’ letter – the 10 consultants wrote a letter, partly based on the genesis of the problems they had had getting anaesthetists, A&E consultants and the theatre technicians. Since then, there have been five workstreams developed, which most of


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them have been involved in and some of them are actually leading, and they gave a presentation 7775 to us in July about how these workstreams are progressing and what was needed. I am afraid to say when they told us what we needed – in my head I can add up – it was about, I guess, £8 million or £9 million to do what we need to do properly to get up to date and fit in with UK standards.

They are hopeful that the review, and maybe the end of this debate here, will actually 7780 provide some certainty for the future. The headcount issue is being dealt with. That is a very important thing because the headcount issue is strangling progress in lots of areas. Whether we get more money, that is another matter, but if we were to have the equivalent of what the UK have had… The Labour government, five or six years ago, pumped money into the UK in big numbers and got the waiting lists down. That was how they did it. We have tried it here in the 7785 past. We have had waiting-list initiatives, put money in – waiting lists go down, then they come back up again. Money is not the answer to waiting lists. We need some more radical moves on that.

The Achilles’ heel, I think, of the Health Service is the waiting-list issue. We have four areas where waiting lists are not good. In most areas they are very good. In the areas where they are 7790 not good we need more theatre time and more surgery time, and the only way to do that is to open up an extra theatre, and we estimate that is going to cost about £1½ million and about 17 heads. That is the way to get rid of waiting lists: £1.5 million, 17 heads. If that can be achieved with the Chief Minister’s initiative I do not know; I doubt it, but that is the way to really do it.

The Achilles’ heel of the Health Service is waiting lists, but let me tell you, from my own 7795 personal experience of family in the last few weeks, if you have a serious illness, if you have a life-threatening illness which is about to hit you very hard, this Hospital snaps into action very quickly and gives excellent, first-class treatment. That is the measure, I think, of the Hospital: it does work well when it needs to, and it works very well.

There are communication problems, there are structural problems, I think, as somebody said, 7800 and there are things that do need sorting out, and it is not good to have complaints; but we are no different to any trust in the UK – in fact, in most areas we are much better.

I would actually ask you to vote against this motion, support the Minister and let the workstreams which are happening now progress to a conclusion, and wait for the external review and see what they say, because I think they may… They will be critical in some areas – 7805 like they will be of the Children’s Service, when that report comes in – but they will also point the way forward, I hope, to actually provide a Health Service for a small Island with a Hospital which would not fit in the UK but has to be fitted in here.

Thank you. 7810 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Hall. Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. The NHS is a major national issue. It is one of our Island’s greatest treasures; and reflecting

this, my speech is somewhat extensive. 7815 Firstly, I welcome the motion – The President: Hon. Member, can you confine your remarks, or make them focus or relate

them to the issue of the vote of confidence, please? (Mr Hall: Absolutely.) We do not want an entire Health Service debate. We have had quite a long contribution… 7820

Mr Hall: I will speak, Madam President, as much as given the right as every other Hon.

Member in this Court. The President: Well, we have – 7825


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A Member: Hear, hear. Mr Henderson: Standing Orders. 7830 Mr Hall: Never mind that. I will speak as much, as equal, as what everybody else has. So – The President: Well, I will decide. Mr Hall: One rule that applies to one then applies to everybody, doesn’t it? 7835 So I welcome the motion brought by the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly, because I have

got concerns in the ability of the Minister for Health to deliver on the mandate and the responsibility given to him, and I will be voting accordingly at the end of the debate. I do not do it lightly, and in doing so I bear no animosity towards the Minister, (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) and I want to make it clear at the outset that my comments are not meant to be any sort of a 7840 personal attack; nor is it personality driven, and it is not political opportunism, as some may suggest.

The motion is about whether the Minister for Health is capable of delivering not only on his commitments, but managing and directing his Department through challenging times; and in ensuring that the most vulnerable are protected, is he capable of delivering reform of the NHS. It 7845 is about whether he can manage the resources in an effective way and in an efficient way.

I am contributing to the debate in recognition of the turbulence that has been in the Department being led by the Minister in recent months and years; because, unfortunately, it seems that it is apparent that there has been nothing but dysfunction itself at Noble’s Hospital and I think it is only right that the Minister answers for that in this Court in an open fashion. 7850

So the thrust of the motion has been brought forward by the support of a number of Members from the House of Keys, including myself, who have tried to state the case to the best of our ability. But of course we do not take any pleasure in throwing this kind of an issue back across the floor of the Court, because we have to stand up for the people, because ultimately the motion of no confidence, in essence, is coming from thousands of constituents and patients 7855 and not so much just from individual MHKs. It gives me no pleasure to do so, but I think we would be failing in our duty to not highlight failings of the Health Minister and the system which he is in charge of.

Failings in any health service understandably give rise to significant public concern, and as far as I am concerned I think the entire Council of Ministers have to take some blame in the 7860 handling of the entire Health Service, because I would suggest it is a collective, shared responsibility by them.

The Health Service is currently being, in my view, led and run with a focus on the implementation of annual declining budgets, in real terms or otherwise, rather than encouraging excellence across the system and making patients the priority. 7865

Minister Anderson holds what is arguably one of the most sensitive positions in the Government, and whilst he may predominantly be the catalyst for this motion and the debate today, together with the chaos that has been in the Health Service, it is also part of the bigger picture which Hon. Members have spoken about and to which I will add my contribution.

The Health Department is one of the more challenging in the Government, and I think even 7870 more so at times when the need for reform is so great and the availability of funds so limited. I accept that the Minister’s challenge is formidable, but I think that is all the more reason why it is absolutely vital that we have a Minister who is assertive, who is bold, determined, strong, has courage and vision – and I just do not see that in the current Minister. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

We have got a poorly resourced Health Service; that is acknowledged. It is being hit with 7875 constant budget challenges in the midst of an unprecedented morale crisis. It is experiencing unprecedented financial pressures, with all sorts of cracks beginning to show. It is, in my opinion, beginning to hit the wall and it will likely have to embark on a period of consultation on


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the major reconfiguration of services, because the core strengths of the National Health Service – resources, expertise and a focus on the patient – are being replaced by a chaotic and 7880 fragmented service driven not by what is best for the patient, but by what is the cost of the encounter.

The NHS is good at saving lives, but how is it going to deal, in the future, with issues which cannot easily be definable or which do not have an objectively measurable end point, such as chronic conditions or treatments where the chances of success are low and the complications 7885 high? How are we going to care for and look after the ageing population, which we are all aware of, and all that flows from this – such as funding cancer drugs, which are seeing cost increase exponentially? Cancer currently costs the EU €126 billion in health bills and lost productivity, with two thirds of that faced by just four countries, including the UK. How is the NHS going to improve obesity services to prevent the increase in obesity, which is associated with a multitude 7890 of health problems such as diabetes, arthritis, sleep disorders, heart disease; all of which cost the NHS huge sums of money each year? A patient may well arrive at the Hospital with coronary heart disease, but if the root cause of that is obesity, then it must be equipped, the NHS, to deal with that root cause.

Ask our constituents how long they have been waiting to see a specialist in the Isle of Man 7895 and how many of them have had an operation cancelled. My questions revealed that, from 1st July 2012 to 30th June 2013, there were 1,381 cancelled NHS operations at Noble’s Hospital – that is a fact – and of these a majority were cancelled by the Hospital – 562, to be precise, were cancelled within one week of the scheduled date.

Compare this now to the whole of England. Mr Butt touched on ratios. The whole of England 7900 has got a population of just in excess of 53 million, and in 2010-11 there were 58,297 operations that were cancelled at the last minute, and in 2011-12 there were 57,087 operations cancelled at the last minute. By assuming that the number of cancelled operations is proportional to a population, the Isle of Man, with a population of approximately 85,000, should expect, if my figures are correct, to see in the region of 90 cancelled operations at the last minute each year 7905 when compared against the statistics for the whole of England. Even if we target a particular area in the UK the picture remains shocking: Coventry and Warwickshire, for example, with a population in excess of just over 317,000, had 612 cancelled operations at the last minute in 2010-11 and they had 575 in 2011-12. These statistics are virtually on a par with the Isle of Man with its tiny population of around 85,000. I would suggest that is just absolutely appalling. 7910

A whole army of people are out there on an out-patient waiting list, many of whom have been waiting for years in considerable pain and discomfort. Orthopaedic out-patients – which I brought to the floor of this Court in Oral and Written Questions – many of whom are elderly and vulnerable, have been waiting for an excessive period of time; the very section of society which the administration says they aim to protect. Try speaking to the surgeons who cannot treat their 7915 patients because of the lack of availability of a bed or insufficient time in theatre, or lack of anaesthetists.

Is the NHS capable of delivering and is the Minister capable of delivering the shifting demands, the daunting challenges of 21st-century healthcare? Should the NHS be ring-fenced, at least for inflation purposes? Costs are rising; demand is rising. All healthcare systems in the 7920 world are dealing with these major issues, and I acknowledge it may not be wholly financial but also to do with technology and demographics, patient expectations, to name just a few reasons.

An overhaul of the grandest scale is needed as a matter of urgency, largely because the Health Service, I would suggest, is in almost a perfect storm: a clash of short-term pressures and the long-term changes. It is happening on this Minister’s watch, and what is clear to me is that 7925 he is incapable of dealing with it. He is either sitting on his hands or running away from it, and there is a real danger of facilitating a total collapse of services. It will probably not go out on a bang, but it will end on a whimper, and as elected politicians I thought that we were supposed to see, on the people’s behalf, certain obvious urgent things that elude officials or vested


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interests. Maybe the Minister and his Council colleagues and those who served before them 7930 have been and are too frightened to look. Maybe that message is just coming home now.

Many of the changes that are needed to be made are long term, not short term. Some of the changes we need to make to the way healthcare is delivered we need… or the Minister for Health needs to organise, needs to facilitate the debate now and then implement that, which would probably take three or four years. I would also suggest that that does not particularly fit 7935 very well in the electoral cycles in this place, because we have got to get away from this, otherwise the changes that we need to make will never happen. No changes will ever happen in the last year immediately before a General Election. A year or two after a General Election – unlikely to be anything significant happening in terms of changes. You have got another… I would call it about a year when you can make realistic hard changes, and then we are back to 7940 another year or two before another General Election, where we cannot really do anything, and I do not think that is any way in which we can run a healthcare system. But that is the dilemma of a state-funded system, because politics is always part of the system. We need to focus on the bigger picture, rather than the small self-interested picture, and we need to begin to move in the right direction and a broad consensus underneath all of it. It is vital to plan certainty if we 7945 are to ever have a dependable Health Service.

Reforming it will take some time, it will take courage, it will take diligence, because what has evolved is chaotic, it is unsustainable and it is unacceptable. We have got to have a clear road map that charts the way forward and ends uncertainty. There are unlikely to be large amounts of resources flowing into the NHS in the coming years, and that is probably the case for a lot of 7950 healthcare systems; so how do you best use the resources that you have? How does a Minister best use the resources?

The Chief Minister, I think, in his speech touched on pay and salaries. Pay and salaries is a massive issue, not just in the NHS but right across the Government, so controlling the pay bill is a really critical element and an important thing. Of course the challenge, though, for any Minister 7955 for Health and for any government, is that many of the staff, as doctors, nurses, midwives and consultants in the National Health Service, there is a huge global market for them, lots of choice. They can go anywhere; there is not just an internal market, which may be the case for a lot of other people within the Civil Service or in the Health Service. So we are under pressure to keep up with these specialist people. Otherwise, well-resourced and well-remunerated posts are 7960 available in other countries, like the US and Australia and New Zealand; so, if we start going down the road of putting in pay restraint for these people, it is only ever going to work for a short, temporary period before they go out there onto that global market where they can get a lot better. The prolonged expectation of the National Health Service that consultants have to endure system failures that result in compromised patient care cannot continue, because in the 7965 medium to long term they will not put up with that, because they will go into that global market. The circumstance that the National Health Service finds itself in now is that, obviously, the higher pay and the pay awards that we give, the fewer staff we can afford to have in the first place.

So how is the Minister… what has he been doing to address this? How is he, together with 7970 the Council of Ministers as a whole, dealing with this critical trade-off? Because that is what it is – it is a critical trade-off. And what are we doing about NHS managers and executives, both in terms of numbers, scale of salaries, working terms and conditions? These are just a few questions that need to be resolved.

Are we going to reform and strengthen the public Health Service, maintain the free-at-the-7975 point-of-use principle; or are large parts of it being driven to the edge of privatisation? If we look around the world – in Mexico, in India and the United States – very competitive private sector healthcare is being offered in a much more affordable way than it ever was before and than it ever has been. I just wonder whether you are looking at these countries or the developing world, doing the big-picture thinking: is the state provision model the best one for the future; 7980


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how radical will things go, or could go, unless something is done now; and how the service is organised?

It may even come down to rationing, if we are not careful and the Minister and the Government do not get a grip on the situation – like saying to people that, in the end, because of the financial constraints, which are severe, they are real, we cannot offer all the services that 7985 you have been expecting and, for example, certain key drugs, certain key procedures will in future have to be rationed. I do not think any Hon. Members would like to explain that scenario to any of their constituents and Hon. Members and the Civil Service need to reflect on this unpalatable scenario very seriously.

So, in order to safeguard healthcare in a viable way for the next 20, 25 or 30 years, my guess 7990 is that any future, and also current… have to look at this, but more so for the future. They are highly likely going to have to reflect on the possibility of introducing user charges for the National Health Service. I do not think that is or should be the case at the moment and I do not think the people of the Isle of Man expect us to be there. I think the taxpayer expects us to get the absolute maximum value out of what we have already got. I think that we should be looking 7995 four or five years… I think that is quite a realistic window to be looking at. A Minister for Health, and this Minister for Health and this administration, must put patients first, and that is what any healthcare system is all about. It must be about the patient who is at the door of the Hospital. It is about a Minister who is able to deliver; and if he does not or cannot deliver, then the debate is needed and the Minister has to accept he may have to step aside. 8000

The Council of Ministers, and particularly the Minister for Health, appear to be effectively, until recently at least, paralysed and unwilling to deal with these big issues. They have been shuffling and stumbling towards the future rather than marching boldly, as some in this place and the people of the Island hope and need.

The Chief Minister often tells us that difficult decisions will have to be made, and he is right; 8005 but is important to understand that the difficult decisions will almost certainly affect the services available, not only to my constituents but to all Hon. Members’ constituents, and it is therefore vital for this administration, this Minister of Health, whilst he is in that position, to keep faith with the people. There is a lot of work to do with the public, there is a lot of talking to do with the population, because only then will we have any chance of persuading them that the 8010 decisions that are taken are the right ones. I do not underestimate how difficult that is, but it is vital.

Some Members, perhaps the Chief Minister, may think that this debate ought not to be happening, but in my view the issue does deserve a damn good airing and it is right that Members be afforded the opportunity to state their case and ask the questions. 8015

If only the Minister and the Chief Executive had been on top of the game, if only they had been frank about the colorectal report, if only they had managed the Department with responsibility and as they should have done, this debate may well not have been happening.

It may not have been happening if the Chief Minister had engaged meaningfully and constructively with the Members of the House of Keys over recent months – the ones who 8020 signed the letter of concern – instead of just perhaps pinning hopes that the temperature would decrease a little with the passage of time. We had no formal response, the political weather remains just as hot and we do not have any sign of any of the dark clouds moving on. Unfortunately, the only option was this option to put the motion down and to consider whether he will be in a position – the Minister for Health – to continue in that role. 8025

I may disagree with many of the decisions taken by the administration. I do agree that Ministers have got that democratic right to make decisions, but part of the bargain is that they must be honest, they must be accountable in the decision-making process. I do not think anybody campaigned for this place for Ministers to shy away from responsibility or accountability, and since we received the many letters and the other correspondence from 8030 consultants at Noble’s Hospital, that transparency and that accountability has been called into question.


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I would like to place on record my thanks to all of those clinicians who placed their real and growing concerns about the Health Service, which have been growing to angry proportions. The matter, I think, has moved beyond who said what to whom, or who typed what, or who 8035 supported or did not support what. It is fundamentally about the nature of the relationship between the Government, the Minister for Health, the Hospital, the clinicians, support staff, nurses. The letters and correspondence received from the consultants, who are working very hard in a very difficult financial environment, contained very unpalatable facts and messages about the current state of the Health Service, but this is necessary if we are to have that open 8040 and honest debate in here and with the public.

We have heard measures are being taken to address the chaos and the dysfunction, but it only looks reasonably good and promising because of how low the Health Service has gone, and how bad it is and how bad it has become.

At the conclusion of this debate, the Council of Ministers will either have defeated the vote 8045 of no confidence, which will allow the Minister to limp along, or the tide will have gone against him and the Hon. Court can expect to see a new leader at the helm of the Department of Health, allowing us and the people to once again have that confidence which is so critical and crucial in Health. The Hon. Court must decide whether it is prepared to sustain the Minister in office, or whether it wishes to encourage the Chief Minister to replace him at the earliest and without 8050 further delay. (Interjection by Mr Karran)

This motion of no confidence also presents the perfect opportunity for the Chief Minister to demonstrate to the nearly 2,000 people or so who voted for him at the last General Election – not to mention the thousands more who effectively voted indirectly for him to the post of Chief Minister through the constituency MHKs – that they did not completely waste their time and 8055 vote.

I, along with my backbench colleagues, had hoped that the Chief Minister would have used that summer recess to review the leadership. I know he is looking at the Health Service and I understand the work that he has done, but I think we all would have hoped to rethink, re-evaluate, review the leadership of the Health Service, because a clean slate is what is needed. 8060 He does not appear to have done that, and so we are where we are today.

We are well briefed about what has been going on at Noble’s Hospital – the flagship of the Department. We have had dysfunction and chaos, but the question that comes to mind is if that has been going on at the flagship, then God knows what has been going on in other areas. It is quite clear to me that there has been bedlam in the Department. 8065

The oral evidence, if we turn to that, of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee on 23rd January 2013, is of particular interest because aspects of the proceedings were not, in my view, answered adequately, honestly or with the degree of transparency required by the Chief Executive or the Minister about the colorectal surgery situation and the report. The substance of the evidence given by the pair is open to question and it is important to state that we have all 8070 got a judgement to make, each of us, on whether the Minister and his Chief Executive told the truth in their joint oral evidence to that Committee.

For my part, I have analysed the evidence, as other Members of this place have, and I believe that the Minister and his Chief Executive were disingenuous when they appeared before the Committee. They were telling porkies. For that reason alone – 8075

The President: Hon. Member – Mr Hall: – and for many others, (Interjections) the Minister should resign immediately. 8080 The President: Hon. Member, would you withdraw that remark? A Member: Hear, hear.


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Mr Henderson: Allegation. 8085 Mr Hall: I will just finish my statement. The President: Would you withdraw your remark, sir; or explain it to the – 8090 Mr Hall: Yes, I withdraw the remark of telling porkies, then. (Interjection) For them to not know the specific details of such a damning report about the Hospital, when

they were quite likely… They must have known they were going to be examined on it, on the contents. I find that highly alarming. It does suggest to me that they just were not on top of the brief, and it does add to that air of crisis and doubt about their future. 8095

We have had months of unrest about the services provided by Government, and it is at times like this that we need a Minister at the helm of the Health Service who is competent, who has got that drive, has got his or her finger on the pulse, is bold and is accountable for the decisions that lie ahead.

The revelations of the past few months provide yet further evidence that we have a Minister 8100 in place who does not have that grip on the Department. And if he does not have that grip on the Department, how on earth can the people of the Isle of Man have any confidence that he has got a grip of the wheel of the NHS, which needs that strong leadership now more than ever?

I think it is time that the Minister reconsidered his position. I think he should do the honourable thing and go, and go now. I think if he cannot do it, then the Chief Minister should 8105 step up to the mantle to do it for him. I know, for patients and all of their families, that such change cannot come soon enough. The Department, under this Minister and under this leadership, puts the patient second and puts their needs at the peripheral of the system; and at the moment, trust, transparency and accountability, as far as Health is concerned, could easily fit on the head of a pin. 8110

I know there are a lot of people in here who are going to vote confidence in the Minister today; I know that. All of the Council of Ministers are going to vote in support of their colleague. They will likely be joined by a few others, and in doing so will vote away their credibility because they will vote confidence in the effective way in which the Department of Health has been managed and the way it has been handled – each of them voting very hypocritically. There is a 8115 big difference between voting confidence and actually having confidence, a huge difference. All of the off-the-record briefings, all the private conversations – that is what really counts; that is what really reflects Members’ real opinions.

Whether the Chief Minister and his Council colleagues accept it or whether they do not, that is their choice; but confidence in the ability and the integrity of the Minister for Health to 8120 manage the Health Service has been lost. The facts speak for themselves. They cannot be contradicted, they cannot be twisted to anybody… to the Minister’s advantage.

I am disappointed that he is still in position, and the lack of a resignation does create that moral hazard that you can get away with everything. We can keep going in circles, but the case for change is irrefutable, and I think it would be a tragedy for the people of this Island if the 8125 Ministers remained in position any longer.

I think a particular point of principle is important to note, because when the Minister comes before this place, or whether he comes before another and he says that there is nothing of concern in a report, we expect it to be of no concern. We do not expect to then find out that it is of high concern. 8130

The second thing is that, irrespective of what the Minister himself did or said, he is the Department and he is responsible for the actions of his Civil Service and his civil servants; and if his civil servants took actions or they gave inaccurate or misleading advice, whether he knew or he did not know, he is responsible to this place and another for what they did or how they went about doing it. Clearly there have been failings in the Health Service involving civil servants who 8135


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would have had an influence on the Minister, and the Minister is therefore responsible for what they did as part of that.

I urge all hon. people, Members of this Court, to do the right thing and replace the Minister for Health with somebody who has got that drive, who has got that leadership in them to get that grip and grasp of the Department, because that is what it needs, because at the moment it 8140 is just –

The President: Hon. Members, can we avoid repetition, please? I think we have heard that

bit before. 8145 Mr Hall: It is slowly being dismantled, Madam President, to the point where it will no longer

be able to deliver the Health Service and what the people expect. I would like to know how the Minister plans to continue that leadership. How does he? I think

the short answer is he cannot and he has not got the faintest idea. It is high time for the Chief Minister to decide what type of leadership is needed and what type is needed to deliver the 8150 Health Service and what the people require.

It is not the needs of the system that should dictate how patients are treated; rather it is the needs of the patient which should dictate how the system is designed. We cannot cut our way out of problems, we must protect frontline services, and there are no shortcuts. I think that there will be further dysfunction. I fear that there will be further dysfunction if we stay on the 8155 same track with the same Minister in the driving seat.

Thank you. A Member: Vote! 8160 The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle. I would make the point again:

please, can we try and avoid repetition and focus on the motion. Mr Corkish: Hear, hear. 8165 Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. Just firstly, for the record, I believe a Tynwald Standing Committee is investigating a request

for Minister Anderson on whether he misled the House over comments made regarding a letter signed by 10 consultants. For me, this is, as I see it, totally separate from this debate and will be decided by the Committee in due course. That is just for the record. 8170

The 33rd President of the United States, Harry S Truman, is famous for his phrase ‘the buck stops here’, and I suppose that is why I stand to support this motion put forward by my colleague, Mr Skelly, Member for Rushen.

Beyond doubt, all health services and hospitals throughout the world will have complaints made against them in the past, current and future. However, the chain of events over the last 8175 two years, culminating in the leaked colorectal surgery report, left me, I felt, with no alternative other than to write and sign a private and confidential letter to the Chief Minister, dated 15th July of this year.

I personally deeply regretted having to do this, as I have known the Hon. Member for Glenfaba for a considerably longer time than most Members in this House, and when it comes to 8180 his integrity I have no doubt that in the past, current and future he is undoubtedly a man of his word. However, I do feel the Minister has been badly let down by his senior management and has accepted the information provided to him as gospel, and unfortunately that is his fault in not checking for himself before giving information to a Select Committee of Tynwald.

If I felt that the Minister and his team had a grip of the situation and were getting on with 8185 the serious problems, then I would let him get on with the difficult job of being Health Minister


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and give him my support. However, after four years of being in charge, two of which have been during my time, I can see little improvement.

Waiting lists: is any Member of this Hon. Court happy with the time that their constituents have to wait for? Dozens of questions, presentations, and still we have one of the worst waiting 8190 lists in the UK and Crown dependencies, measured in years in some cases, not months. I read an article in the Jersey Evening Post, where its health service was being criticised if its waiting list was over three months. It stated:

‘Eighty-four per cent of patients are now waiting less than three months for routine surgery at the General Hospital, according to the Health department.’ At the beginning of 2012, that had been about 75%, and they are getting stick for that. We

would give our right arm to have Jersey’s waiting-list problem. (Interjection by Mr Gawne) 8195 Another major problem is that there is no average cost data collection, which has been aired

previously and accepted. In layman's terms, that means no benchmarking can take place. When I tried to look at ways of bringing down the waiting lists, especially orthopaedics, I was told that Noble’s could not tell me what the costs to them were to do a hip operation. This, from the second biggest spending Department of Government. 8200

Throughout the last two years, constituents who work at Noble’s Hospital have approached me with their concerns and where they believe that there is room for improvement. I have, over this period, asked relevant questions behind the scenes and on the floor of Tynwald and the House of Keys, but have felt that we are getting nowhere fast.

There are so many red-herrings floating around about at the moment that I am surprised 8205 Minister Gawne has not imposed a quota: (Laughter) Mr Skelly wants the Health Minister's job – totally irrelevant; it is a personal attack on Minister Anderson – no it is not, he is the Minister for Health and therefore the buck stops there; we are undermining and demoralising the Health Service workers – no we are not, they are already demoralised and are at breaking point.

To quote from a whistleblower, a senior nurse/technician who wrote to the Minister on 8210 8th February and copied the letter to all of us MHK's :

‘Many clinical staff at all levels within the Hospital are now at breaking point.’ This was stated long before our July letter. I need to know that when I speak to a Minister about a problem I am going to get the

confidence of the answer that I receive. Whilst I totally accept the word of Minister Anderson, his record in accepting what he is told by his senior management has cast doubt in my mind. 8215

I will read out the exact wording again, because for me it was the tipping point in making my decision to support this motion. This is the Hansard from 23rd January, and it starts off with the Chairman to the Chief Executive and the Minister:

‘Can you give us an update on what is happening with the colorectal surgery situation…’ This is the reply: ‘The review has concluded that the cases were all appropriately treated and that the surgical procedures adopted were acceptable, and that the outcomes were… expected, but within that… [the] anaesthetic techniques that went hand-in-hand with the colorectal surgery. Consequently, a review of those anaesthetic techniques was undertaken.’ Any of you reading that and hearing that… would any of you have been surprised that when 8220

you then read the full account of the report from the surgical hospital at York, from the professor who led the report, could any of you have… The difference was black and white. Three of them were poor surgical technique and one of them should never have happened. That, to


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me, is totally black and white – it is not even close – and unfortunately I felt that that was the tipping point in why I supported the motion. 8225

Thank you. Mrs Cannell: Madam President, I would like to move, under Standing Order 3.16(1) that the

question be now put. 8230 The President: Is there a seconder, Hon. Members? The Lord Bishop: Yes. The President: We will put it to the vote, Hon. Members. If it is decided in the affirmative, 8235

then the mover will wind up. We need a quorum of each branch: that is 13 and 5, Hon. Members.

Electronic voting resulted as follows: 8240

In the Keys – Ayes 7, Noes 17

FOR Mr Ronan Mr Bell Mr Teare Mr Houghton Mrs Cannell Mr Robertshaw The Speaker

AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 7 for and 17 against.


8245 FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

AGAINST Mr Crowe

The President: In the Council, 8 for and 1 against. The branches are in disagreement. The

motion therefore fails. We continue Hon. Members. The Hon. Member, Mr Anderson.

8250


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The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President. I am sure most people would be disappointed if I did not make a contribution to this debate.

(Two Members: Hear, hear.) I would like to start maybe by thanking those who stood up and supported not just myself but the Department and the work the Department has been doing, over the last three years in particular, in very challenging circumstances. 8255

I think it is fair to say, Madam President, that there are polarised views being brought here today and that whatever I say is not going to affect the vote, and so I am going to limit my comments to a few different areas.

I must say I am very disappointed at Tynwald Court tonight. We seem to beat ourselves up regularly and denigrate institutions on the Island. 8260

I do not recognise the same Health Service that Mr Hall spoke about. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I do not think he can be spending enough time on the Island to understand it. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) Surely we have heard today about people taking part, getting together and getting behind Government to make us a better Government, a more efficient Government; and yet Mr Hall is the one who does not take part in Government at all. It is very easy to sit on 8265 the sidelines and criticise. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It so much harder to take part in Government and make decisions, make hard decisions. That is what we are doing in the Health Service.

I value greatly my Department colleagues, Mr Henderson (A Member: Hear, hear.) and Mr Butt. Mr Butt has given you a flavour tonight of how difficult things are in the Health Service. 8270

We have three other Members of Tynwald Court sitting here tonight who have been Health Ministers. I was privileged in my first post in the Health Service to be… When I came into Tynwald in 2001, I was privileged to be asked to be a Member for Health under Madam President. It was a very steep learning curve for me. I was serving in that Department with Mrs Hannan and Mr Earnshaw. Mrs Christian was dealing, in the Department, with double 8275 murders of children in care. She was dealing with a Hospital that was running over budget, that there were contractual problems with. These were the sort of issues that were being dealt with at that time, and I thought to myself, ‘How do you cope with those sorts of issues?’ I learnt an awful lot by sitting and listening to the way she conducted the Department.

I do not know how Ministers in the past have wrestled with the enormous complexity of the 8280 DHSSS – I think there was one too many s’s there. However, the Treasury Minister was there before me. He had a bigger Department than I did. Since the restructuring has taken place, of course, we have got Mental Health back into the Department, and I do not think people have recognised that we have that responsibility. I think in Question Time this morning there was some distortion of figures and not recognising that Mental Health was back in the Department. 8285 However, I was privileged to be Member for Health.

I never wanted to be a Minister. I remember getting a call from the then Chief Minister when I was having a weekend in the UK and, to my amazement, I was asked would I be Minister for Education. There was to be a reshuffle. All of a sudden it was not politically correct to have Ministers in the Legislative Council, and so there was a reshuffle and the Education Minister, 8290 Minister Rodan, became the DHSS Minister and I was asked to step up to be Education Minister.

If you reflect on why that took place, why Minister Christian was in place in the DHSS: because Health was a very poison chalice. Let’s look back at the incumbent before her, Mr Bernie May, who did a fantastic job (A Member: Hear, hear.) in securing Noble’s Hospital, but he paid the ultimate price. That is why there was nobody putting their hand up to be Health 8295 Minister in the next administration. The Chief Minister had to go to the Legislative Council.

Times changed. The new Chief Minister decided that all Ministers should come from the lower House. I reflected long and hard. I only had a boat journey to make my mind up. I had four siblings who were all qualified teachers; I left school as soon as I could, and I was being asked to be Minister for Education. They encouraged me to take the opportunity and to go for it. I have 8300 never turned down a job in Government, unlike some people in here, and I have always done


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what I have been asked to do. I might not do it in the way that some people here would like me to do it, but I have always done it to the best of my ability.

So my ministerial journey started in the Department of Education and I enjoyed that role and I valued the support of officers and Members that I worked with in that Department, and I was 8305 very disappointed when I was asked to move to the Department of Transport; but again, the Department of Transport is a very big Department with lots of big capital schemes. The first job I had to do was to tell the residents of the White Hoe properties that, unfortunately, their properties were no good and we would have to purchase them from them. So that was in at the deep end, but I enjoyed my time there, I enjoyed my support there. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 8310

And then we had a restructure of Government and I was asked to be Minister for Health. Well, I was following in some very big footsteps and I was reassured that it was not quite as onerous as it had been in the past because certain elements of it were hived off to the Social Care area. However, we must recognise that pressure on the Health Service continues to build. We have heard this evening about people saying we need to have a debate about the Health 8315 Service, and people have used this opportunity to have a debate about the Health Service, but really what you are wanting to do is remove the Minister for the Health Service. That other item is something we must debate and it must be a wider debate than just in here – we must involve the general public – and there has been criticism in this Court of me this evening for not leading that debate. 8320

Quite honestly, we have been fighting quite a lot of fires in the Department of Health recently, and some of the pressure that has been put on by individual Members, even with Question Times, when we have had to have clinicians leaving their frontline service jobs to get information for me to give Answers to you – because we have not got myriads of civil servants just sitting in offices responding with Answers. A lot of these Answers are prepared by frontline 8325 clinicians. I want to put on record my thanks to the officers of the Department who have been working under extreme pressure over the last several months.

A lot of people are not satisfied with the pace of change in the Health Service. A lot of people are unaware of what is going on in the Health Service. We regularly try to keep you abreast of situations. You are very well aware of the review of the West Midlands organisation coming in 8330 and the timescale for that. In relation to that, the Hon. Member, Mr Skelly, said that I had been pressurised into that. Mr Butt mentioned it earlier: we have already given that commitment for a long time that we were going to do that. We had problems acquiring the services of individuals to deliver that service, but we got over the line and we have started that now.

In relation to other people making accusations that somehow we are going to be able to taint 8335 that report in some way, shape or form, this is an independent body that will give not just the Health Service but this Hon. Court a very good report on where we are and what we need to do to move forward. We are addressing the areas of most concern to start with, and it is unfortunate that you have not recognised that we are already doing significant work in the Health Service. 8340

We have also, as a result of the letter from the 10 consultants, put in place five different workstreams that consultants are involved in and clinicians and frontline services are involved in, in actually addressing patient safety issues. This has not happened because of public or political pressure; that was instituted by the Medical Director, Mr Upsdell, and those workstreams have been going on for some time. Mr Butt and myself have attended a reporting-8345 back session of that, where the five groups reported and said what needed to be done, and now we are working on how to implement strategies to develop and improve patient safety.

Patient safety is primarily our top priority in the Health Service, and it seems to be unfortunate that some people have either not availed themselves of the opportunity to come and see what we are doing, or they have listened to individuals who have had a bad experience 8350 in the Health Service.


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There are those who have had bad experiences in the Health Service. It happens throughout the western world. What we need to recognise is that we learn from those mistakes and we build in systems that improve patient safety. That is what we are doing.

In my Answer to the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, this morning… He asked the 8355 Question what processes and procedures have I put in place since July in Noble’s Hospital. I explained I am not a clinician, but the clinicians who work in the Hospital and have the highest standards have already brought in I think it is 40 different procedures since July. That is not because there is an ongoing issue about patient safety; that is just normal run-of-the-mill business. 8360

Mr Henderson: It is normal practice Mr Anderson: Hon. Members need to be aware that the Health Service does these things in

the background, day in and day out. It is not a result of political pressure; it is a result of the 8365 professional level and the pride the clinicians have in their own work.

Yes, the 10 consultants had a concern when they wrote the letter to Mr Stephen Upsdell. They did not write it to us, they wrote it to him as some of them got frustrated because the pace of change was not quick enough for them, but he had put in place those workstreams to address those situations. 8370

A couple of those clinicians would not be content if things were not done overnight. We have got to be practical in the Health Service. We can only do things with the resources we are given and we have to make business cases. They have to make business cases to us and we have to make business cases to Treasury.

What has been extremely useful this summer has been the intervention of the Chief Minister. 8375 The Chief Minister has not had the experience of many of us in this Court and been a Member for Health at one stage in his career. He must have been in about every other Government Department, but he has not been in the Department of Health. He has been able to see, with the Chief Secretary, at first hand the issues that we are dealing with and the problems that we are dealing with, and to be fair… 8380

Mr Houghton, the Hon. Member for North Douglas said I should be there, banging my fist on the table at the Council of Ministers. Well, we do not do things quite like that. We have systems to go through, we have procedures to go through, and both myself and the previous Minister, Mr Teare, have made representation on these areas to Treasury to try and get things changed; but that is where we have had the blockage. Fortunately now we have got the Chief Minister on 8385 board and he is understanding the issues we have got and understanding it is not just about money; it is about changing procedures. He has got on board and he has been able to make changes that I think will make a significant difference to the Health Service.

I am not going to go on at length, Madam President. I take on board a lot of the comments that Hon. Members have made, but I do not recognise the Health Service that some people have 8390 been talking about here tonight. I am very proud of the Health Service and the staff that we have in the Health Service. Yes, we do have problems. Yes, there will always be complaints, but our complaints level is no greater than other comparable hospitals in the UK. We are working at improving our systems, and no doubt the Francis Report working group and West Midlands will make recommendations about our systems about complaints. It is not perfect. It is a work in 8395 progress. As I said this morning to the Hon. Member, Mr Thomas, I am open to suggestions on how we can improve that service.

Madam President, in conclusion, I am very proud of the Health Service in the Isle of Man. I get far more compliments than I get complaints, and on a regular basis at Noble’s Hospital people come up to me and say, ‘I don’t know what all this fuss is about.’ But what we have been 8400 doing here, over the last several months, is lowering the morale of staff in the Hospital and damaging the confidence of the general public in the Isle of Man. (Several Members: Hear,


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hear.) You, Hon. Members, need to give us the opportunity to raise that confidence, and I ask you to give us that chance.

I have referred myself to the Members’ Standards Committee and I have said to you publicly, 8405 on more than one occasion, that if I am found to have misled you knowingly, I will resign; so you have that in the bank. Let the Committee do its work, and in the meantime let us get on and do our work.

Several Members: Hear, hear. 8410 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think the debate has been interesting tonight. I think the problem is that we already know that, with the block vote system that we have 8415

got, Mr Skelly has got no chance of actually winning this vote anyway; but the reality is that it has actually served the purpose. The letter has served the purpose.

We discussed the issue, me and Kate, the Hon. Member for South Douglas, about whether we should proceed with this, and we decided that we would get the usual personalised abuse that we have come to accept as part of the system that has been allowed to develop with the 8420 political structure.

I think this debate should not be personalised about Mr Anderson. I think the point that the Hon. Member for Onchan… about ‘porkies’ was totally bang out of order, because I do not think that… That is totally wrong. But unlike his previous input into this debate, he does not know all the facts. 8425

The facts are that the then Chief Minister… They have made statements here that the then Chief Minister actually promised me, as the Member for Health, that at the next election of the MLC I would be the Minister for Health. That is how I was the Member for Health for many years, but having to put more Questions out… answer more Questions than the Minister did, if the truth is known, in that period. Just like the issue… He is not talking porkies about the former 8430 Member for North Douglas. It was nothing to do with the new Hospital. I begged him 18 months before, as a Labour colleague, as far as the General Election was concerned, that he had the change as well, as I was a former joiner in that area.

The President: Hon. Member, this has little to do with the motion. 8435 Mr Karran: I understand that you what do you call it, but the point is that that is not porkies

that the Hon. Member is saying. He has said that because he sincerely believes that point. The reality is he does not know, and I think that is where the Hon. Member for Onchan is wrong.

I think the problem you have got today… and I think was said that… and I think the one good 8440 thing that this debate will bring about… and to be fair, we have come a long way… The personalised abuse that is normally singled out, for decades, on me for not toeing the line, and now recently with the Hon. Member for South Douglas who, with Mr Skelly, has brought about the deadlock… the problem that we have had for years as far as the political system... It does not matter what we do in here. We were pleading, we were begging when it came to the MEA, and 8445 what have we got? We got threatened by chief executives that we would get sued outside whenever I met up with the fella.

The point is that this debate today has served as a very valuable tool in what we want to develop as a parliamentary democracy, because the problem was, when we signed up – with the exception of this Hon. Member – to the ministerial system, we said you needed audit and we 8450 needed accountability, and I believe that Mr Skelly, with the initiative from the Hon. Member for South Douglas, has created that. This will help to bring about the sea change that has happened, because the point is we have gone through the biggest economic boom of this nation’s history


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and it is the system that is wrong. I think it is important we remember that it is not the personalities… and the personal abuse and the fact that we… the way things are. 8455

I was disgusted to hear that the mover of this motion, who had the integrity to follow up the letter, is now being told that he did it because he wants the job as Minister. Well, he knows how to get the job of Minister: give up his integrity and say black is white. He would be far better to… He is not a moron, Chief Minister. (Interjection) He is not an idiot, Chief Minister. He knows what the situation is as far as if he wants a ministerial position. You have only got to see how your 8460 inconsistency is as far as trying to defend the indefensible.

The point is today that I think it has been a useful debate. I think the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, has more than likely put one of the best inputs into this debate I have heard since he came into this Court a number of years ago. I think it is important that the points that even Mr Quayle, who I generally find, you know… (Interjection) These points… (Interjection) He is 8465 not going down for the personalised situation. He stated the facts, and that is what they want: the facts.

We know the vote is lost. We understand that. The point is, and what you have got to remember, Hon. Member, Mr Skelly, is that many of us in this Hon. Court have numerous non-achievements as far as what has ended up being the policy within this Court. 8470

I think the point today with this debate is hopefully we will see more Members who are not in the Council of Ministers actually becoming honest or –

The President: Hon. Member. 8475 Mr Karran: – true independents, and that is the problem that we have had in here. We

understand that the situation is that Ministers have to accept collective responsibility. This is not a policy debate. This is an issue where, if they had a free vote, they would change.

I am disappointed with the likes of the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne. I understand that you have had to change and the way you have changed from when you came in here from 8480 when you were not in here. As I say, I expected this sort of input from the Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Teare.

I do think the point is this debate has served a valuable purpose. This whole exercise has got people away from the arrogance of the block vote system.

It would be nice to see the Chief Minister actually withdraw his comments about the Hon. 8485 Member for Rushen, that somehow he did this because he wants to become Health Minister. You might be able to get people in here –

The President: Hon. Member, could you come to the point of the motion, please, as to

whether or not you have confidence in the Minister? 8490 Mr Karran: Alright. My point is the fact that we need to see more parliamentary process on

Departments. We need to see a situation where we are not seeing a situation where they are trying to defend the indefensible.

I hope that the Members who have signed this letter will have the integrity to make sure that 8495 we keep the pressure on where standards need to change. I think many of the inputs into this debate have been unfortunate. This is not a personal issue and should not be a personal issue about the Hon. Member for Glenfaba; it is as much about the issue of the way Government operates. I hope that what we will see from this debate and what we might see is some realisation that the only way to have good governance is to have good opposition that holds the 8500 executive to account, and I hope that Hon. Members realise that.

I think the point is, really speaking, the die is cast as far as this debate is concerned. We know we have lost the vote; but, Mr Skelly, you have won the argument.

Mr Houghton and Mrs Beecroft: Hear, hear. 8505


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The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Shimmin. Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Madam President. The previous speaker, Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, once again talks about the

personalised abuse, and then proceeded to abuse those of us who have taken a responsible role 8510 within the Council of Ministers. (Several Members: Hear, hear.)

The Member for Michael, Mr Cannan, talks about sincerity. Others have talked about integrity and how unfortunate this debate is. I want to move away from Ministers. I want to talk about three individual Members of this Court.

There is one person in this Chamber who had, in my view, more independence than any us 8515 politicians, which was the Lord Bishop. (A Member: Yes.) The Lord Bishop did no favours for Council of Ministers or Minister Anderson when he volunteered to be a conduit for criticisms, concerns and complaints within the Health Service.

He is a person who is not, by nature, a politician. He lives for a time in this political world, and he has seen many issues within the Church, I am sure, which he would class as political with a 8520 small ‘p’, but he has no votes in this Chamber, unlike everybody else.

He finished off by identifying the four areas: customer care; staff relations and the management; medical and nursing practice; and funding. Most of those issues are ones which are not directly under the responsibility of the Minister; they are there under various guises to do with the management, the clinicians and the people who run our Health Services, or even our 8525 Government Departments. The main one is funding.

I remember the Speaker, some many Tynwalds ago, pointed out that he felt that his role as a Minister was to get enough funding for his Department, and we have seen from the Member of Council, Mr Butt, when he talks about what used to happen in the old days was the £8 million or £6 million overspend because we, as politicians, would always say yes to the Health Service. But 8530 if we had a Minister fighting for that funding and we had the money available, then why wouldn’t we, as politicians, support the public and try and reduce some of the waiting lists? So all of those Members who talk about the issues of waiting lists, such as my good friend for Middle, Mr Quayle, say it as if there is the means of doing this without the money; yet we have had the whole debate about the finances. 8535

But the Bishop then went on to say, and these are his words, that the Minister is tackling all this and more. He then said leadership is not management.

Others, including a particularly strange contribution from the Member for Onchan, Mr Hall, talking about a whole range of things and getting quite agitated about some of this, and saying he is not on top of the brief and the honourable thing to do is for the Minister to go… 8540

I would far prefer to have Minister Anderson in charge of Health than me. I might be one of those who bang the table a bit more, which some of you seem to think is beneficial. I certainly know that when dealing with clinicians, when dealing with the consultants, you do not want somebody like me going in, jumping in heavy footed; you want somebody who can actually work with those clinicians, and I think that is what the Lord Bishop was saying about Minister 8545 Anderson.

So the Lord Bishop has got no reason to support Council of Ministers. He is an honest independent.

Mr Butt: it easy now for the Hon. Member, Mr Houghton, to vilify Mr Butt as somebody he has known for many, many years, but you have a person there, a senior rank in the Police 8550 service, an honourable individual who has come in to serve the public in Tynwald, and unlike us he did not come from politics, although I am sure the Police has enough small-‘p’ politics. He has worked with Minister Anderson. He has been there, done that, week in, week out, for three years. He talks as a person who knows people, who understands good and bad in people, trusts him utterly – trusts implicitly the Minister. He is not a Minister; he is never going to become a 8555 Minister. He has got no reason to patronise the Chief Minister or the rest of the Ministers. He is


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saying it because that is his honest belief and the truth about how he feels about the Member for Glenfaba.

And then we come to the third one, and I believe he is the next one up on his feet, Mr Henderson – hardly a fan of the Government. Over the last 15 years or thereabouts, 8560 Mr Henderson has been a regular contributor. He has been a Minister; he has fought the Ministers. He has been an honest, open man and critical whenever he sees anything wrong, including this morning in Question Time. He is not going to rally to support a Minister for any personal gain. He is doing it because he has worked inside the Health Service and is now serving with the Minister in the Department. So when you have heard him speak before, when you hear 8565 him speak possibly tonight, he is not somebody who is doing this to try and get the support of the Chief Minister; he is doing it because he believes it sincerely.

So I do not need anybody else on the other side who is going to vote against the Minister tonight to tell me or anybody else about how sincere they are and how this is in the public interest, because we are politicians: we take sides. I am astonished at some of the people who 8570 have rallied behind in the way that they have, including the Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly, because I think there was somebody earlier on who said, ‘You have got it wrong.’ This is not the way to help the Health Service. This is not the way to help the people or the public of the Isle of Man by spending month after month making our public concerned about going to our Health Service, making our staff feel so demoralised when they are trying to save people and make 8575 people’s lives better. So to turn around… and we can all play the politics of this. It is a judgement call, and some politicians in this room will enjoy being negative all the time.

For those of you who will now vote because you feel compelled – you have written this letter in good faith… [Inaudible] you down on a conveyer belt, you have now heard Mr Karran and others bully you and saying you have got to go along with this – look where you are aligning 8580 yourselves in this parliament. Do you want to be somebody who is, by nature, one of the quietest men in the House of Keys, Minister Anderson, who gets on and does the job? Every job he has ever been asked to do, he has done it – and he has been Minister for Education, he has been Minister for Transport, he has been Minister for Health.

When we had a problem with the Hon. Member for Onchan – Minister Karran, as he was – 8585 who did we turn to, to actually babysit the Education Department? And indeed his good friends, Mr Hall and Mr Houghton, I think, left under a cloud when they had this collective responsibility issue with Minister Karran, who was then removed… in Minister Anderson’s safe, fair hands. Been there before: that is who we turn to in a crisis.

So let us not make this depersonalised: it is very political, it is very personalised. It should not 8590 be, but it has become that because the blood is scented, blood is out there: the opportunity to have a go at Government and be negative.

For those of you who are going to go along with this vote today, fine. I agree entirely with what Mr Karran has said – remarkably – inasmuch as this can be the start of a sea change. This can be beneficial if the next step is pulling together for the good of the people of the Isle of Man. 8595 But if it continues to be some sort of rhetoric that has gone on today – and I am just as capable of that as anybody… but I think that if we can rally now behind the Minister, the Department, and more importantly the staff and the patients of our Health Service, then today has been worthwhile.

I am sad for today, but I suppose it was a necessary stage in a process, but I do think a lot of 8600 good can come out of it if we actually now turn around whatever the outcome of the vote and say we will now pull together and put the patients and the public first, rather than politics or the staff and the criticism of the staff.

Several Members: Hear, hear. 8605 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.


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Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Eaghtyrane, I think the Minister hit the nail on the head in his response to this debate, some 8610

of which I consider to be a complete and utter shambles, when he said that he does not recognise the Health Service that has been observed tonight, spoken about and criticised, and I have to agree with the Health Minister on that. I, too, do not recognise the organisation that has been open to such abuse and criticism in its various forms as the debate has unfolded. I am quite staggered, actually, Eaghtyrane, at some of the florid descriptive terminologies that have been 8615 levelled and used to, as far as I am concerned, denigrate the entire Health Service. That is the perception that has gone out. No matter how Members have felt that they may have wished to put it, the perception has gone out and the damage is done, unfortunately.

What I would like to say is the fact that I know is that we have a small Hospital in a small Island of 85,000 people. We have a small Hospital with somewhere in the region of 1,600 staff 8620 members attached to it in one way or another; a small Hospital that tries its very best to meet all the aspirations of all the community to the ever-increasing standards that are levelled at it all the time.

All credit to it, because in the background, which is not being properly acknowledged tonight, a lot of the standards are being applied by itself, by its own staff, by its clinicians and doctors, 8625 who are forever self-auditing what is going on anyway, and for anyone to stand up here and say that there is no clinical governance going on in Noble’s Hospital is completely disingenuous. To say that the Hospital does not follow the NICE guidelines is a deliberately disingenuous statement to make, when the hassle I have given Health Ministers here in the past over specific and detailed issues… it is quite clear that all these guidelines are followed. A hospital could not 8630 operate otherwise, and anyone who tries to go along and support that view is so naïve, politically naïve, it is truly staggering, to say the least.

We have a small Hospital trying to deliver all this. And yes, in the background there are demographic changes, but I do not subscribe to the view that they have just come along in the last two years – that is rubbish and tosh. We have known about the grey time bomb in the 8635 Health Service for the past 20 or 30, probably 40 years. It has been predicted by clinicians in the background, quietly getting on with their work and bringing the issue of the care of the elderly more to the fore as we go along. It may be that we should have –

The President: Could we come to the point of confidence, Hon. Member? 8640 Mr Henderson: It may be that we should have tackled it sooner, I think. If the Health Service is in such chaos and Noble’s is in such chaos, I say again what I said last

time, Eaghtyrane: how on earth did that Hospital cope with TT fortnight to the magnificent standard it did? How did that happen, then? 8645

I would also ask… We had a horrific road traffic accident not so very long ago. Emergency services were there, everyone did what they were supposed to do under the most tragic of circumstances, and my heart goes out to the people involved in that. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The staff at Noble’s Hospital did everything that they were supposed to do, so I do not see ‘chaos’, ‘things need to change’, ‘the place is a shambles’. I see quite the opposite. 8650

Something else I would like to go out tonight is the disingenuous and disproportionate urban legend that has been generated from some of the commentary here that is panicking our public, and it is indeed knocking the confidence that the public have in our Health Service, and in some cases it has bottomed it out. Like it or not, the point about demoralised staff is true. Yes, they are, and for some very good reasons. This, that has been going on since July, I can tell you 8655 straight, Hon. Members… Sorry, Eaghtyrane – I can tell the Hon. Members quite frankly, straight from the horse’s mouth, that all this is doing is completely demoralising the staff, full stop.

There is a recruitment crisis in Noble’s, if you want to put it like that. This is only magnifying it to the nth degree. You are not helping the situation by doing business this way. And yes, I accept that there are issues from time to time within an organisation. There always have been and 8660


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there always will be in the future single-purpose issues, same as the ones I have brought before now in different things; but the perception that there is this inherent fundamental chaotic, dysfunctional organisation is completely wrong. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

There were something like 350,000 contacts with Noble’s Hospital in the last 12 months. We have only had something like 250 complaints, in one form or another, which is, as we have 8665 heard, commensurate with other similar UK hospitals. That is not telling me that there is chaos and a national disaster going on; that is telling me quite the opposite. We need to help and support our staff. We need to help and support the clinicians in there who are trying to make ends meet.

If Hon. Members want the real issue, that is quite simple. As I painted to start with, we have 8670 got a small general Hospital that we expect to do everything. What we are doing to it though is imposing financial restraints on it. It has been bashed from every quarter, including within the Council of Ministers: ‘Show us your savings; where are the savings; operate efficiently; too much management.’

I will be interested in the Chief Minister’s Beamans report, when that comes out, about too 8675 much management, because if you keep hammering an organisation the way this one is continually under nuclear bombardment almost, you need extra – ‘bean counters’ was one of the phrases used earlier – to cope with the huge amount of extra work that has been generated to answer all the Questions and be doubly and triply transparent, that some Hon. Members want. If you want all the information that is required and all the IT and everything else that goes 8680 into the equation as well, there will be more bodies needed because the resource implication is plain to see.

However, we are back to the point where we are expecting what I think, in the round… Yes, there have been problems, we know that, and there always will be; but in the round we should be proud of it and of the hard work that goes in. But what we are doing is expecting it to deliver 8685 ever-increasing amounts of service with ever-decreasing budgets: an impossible equation.

That is one of the main reasons that the consultants’ letter was generated in the first place. The Minister said it himself: they were completely exasperated. Of course they were, trying to cope under those circumstances. They cannot meet their own national guidelines, in some cases, because they cannot cope with what they have not got. That is the real reason and it is 8690 going to have to come centrally from the Council of Ministers. They are going to have to look in the round. The point about a debate on how the Health Service should be in the future, how things are going to be delivered, how we are going to do it and what may need to change is a perfectly valid point.

The issue that was raised – 8695 The President: The issue is confidence in the Minister: can you come to that point, Hon.

Member? Mr Henderson: Yes. At the minute, I have confidence in the Minister, Eaghtyrane. 8700

(Interjection) But I will put on record I will be the first in the queue, if any negativity comes out from the Committee, to eject him from Tynwald as well; but that is for another day, Eaghtyrane. (A Member: Vote!)

Mr Henderson: What we need to concentrate on is the fact that the real issue – and it can be plainly seen if you dig down – is that we are expecting people to deliver a service with ever-8705 decreasing resources. We are running it on a resource shoestring.

One of the issues the Chief Minister mentioned was about management: ‘Oh, there is a management issue.’ Yes, there is, and it is not the Minister's fault really, in one sense. If you tell your senior management team, ‘This is the resource you have got: deliver the Health Service that we want…’ Yes, they have tried their best to do it under extreme circumstances. So it has 8710 put these folk, I would say – it certainly would me – under a certain amount of stress and in an operating mode that they may not wish to operate under, when you make people operate on a


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shoestring budget. That is the real issue and the Council of Ministers are going to have to get to grips with that and come to some determination and some sort of policy for themselves on a way forward with our Health Service. 8715

It is no use banging on about all the different things we have heard tonight. That is the real fundamental issue under the whole carpet here, if I can put it like that. It is the foundation that people have been using to launch their own political means. That needs to be recognised.

One of the other myths, urban legends, that has been thrown in tonight is this thing about the review that is underway. That was discussed a long time – and it can be shown and 8720 demonstrated, evidenced – before all this furore started, to be quite honest and to put the picture straight on that.

However, I would like the Court to just bear in mind what I have been saying about a resource issue and resource impact – what we are expecting the Health Service and the Hospital to deliver with no resource package to go with it. The IT argument is a classic one. 8725

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Skelly, to reply. Mr Skelly: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. You said you did not want this widening into a debate. Well, it has. However, I think it has 8730

been very helpful and very necessary. We now have the views of Members. This might be a vote of no confidence, but so much depends on the future of our Health Department. It has certainly been, I think, a difficult, emotive and sometimes unpleasant debate. I want to thank everyone for their contribution, and I particularly want to thank Mrs Beecroft for seconding the motion.

I will not comment on everyone's contribution, but I would just like to make one statement 8735 with regard to Mr Anderson's contribution. I think it was respectful and dignified and just the man that you are.

There are a number of common themes: applaud the staff; the staff have been working tremendously hard; they are under a lot of pressure; there is low morale. I do not doubt there is not. There has also been low morale for a very long time for the staff who believe they have 8740 never been heard, and we do need to consider that.

I think just about everyone admitted that there are concerns, there are problems, there are failings in this Department. The key areas were patient safety and patient outcomes. There were calls for reform. That tells you we have got serious… [Inaudible] We have to determine what are the priorities of this parliament for our Health Service. There are pressures on resources. 8745

There was the issue with regard to misleading parliament. That appears to be split and my only statement on that would be that, for those who are involved in dealing with that, they should come to a conclusion as swiftly as possible because we need that determined. Plenty of anecdotal – good, bad; we really must think about evidence. That comes back to the issue of IT. We are politicians. We do not want to make decisions on anecdotal statements; we want real 8750 evidence. If nothing else has come out of this about this review that is happening, that will provide that real evidence and we should not be afraid of those results.

The Chief Minister stated he has been to the Department many times, and we know that. He has listening to staff, he has been listening to consultants, he has been listening to unions. I hope he has heard loud and clear here today from Members. 8755

I am going to finish where I started. This is not about an individual; this is about public confidence. We need to make a vote here that will be on your conscience. It is a vote that will determine the competence of these consultants and also the competence of the people. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

With that, Madam President, I beg to move. 8760 The President: Hon. Members, the motion before the Court is set out at Item 33 on your

Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.


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A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows: 8765 In the Keys – Ayes 9, Noes 15

FOR Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Cannan Mr Houghton Mrs Beecroft Mr Thomas Mr Skelly

AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Teare Mr Cregeen Mr Henderson Mrs Cannell Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Gawne The Speaker

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 9 votes for, 15 against.


FOR None

AGAINST Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

The President: In the Council, no votes for, 9 against. The motion therefore fails to carry. Hon. Members, that concludes consideration of our main Order Paper. 8770 Are you content to complete the Supplementary Order Paper tonight? Members: Agreed.

8775

Supplementary Order Paper

1. and 4. Papers laid before the Court

The President: We turn then to that Order Paper, and I call on the Clerk to lay papers.

The Clerk: I lay before the Court the paper at Item 1 of the Supplementary Order Paper and the papers at Item 4 of the Supplementary Order Paper. 8780


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Income Tax Act 1970 Taxes (Mutual Assistance) Order 2013 [SD No 0320/13]

Education Act 2001 Regulation of Care (Boarding School Fees) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0340/13]

Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper

Documents subject to no procedure Regulation of Care Act 2013

Regulation of Care (Independent Clinic) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0339/13] Regulation of Care (Care Services) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0338/13] Regulation of Care (Registration) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0337/13]

2. Suspension of Standing Order 2.4(1) – Motion carried


That Standing Order 2.4(1) be suspended to the extent necessary to allow the business relating to the Taxes (Mutual Assistance) Order 2013 to be taken. The President: Item 2. The Minister for the Treasury to move the suspension of Standing

Orders. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. 8785 I beg to move that Standing Order 2.4(1) be suspended to the extent necessary to allow that

the Taxes (Mutual Assistance) Order 2013 on the Supplementary Order Paper now be taken. I beg to move: Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President. 8790 The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members? (Members: Agreed.) Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Just a very short statement at half past eleven – 8795 The President: Are you supporting the motion, sir, or speaking against the motion? Mr Thomas: Just asking three questions of the… [Inaudible](Interjection) 8800 Mr Braidwood: Yes, it has not been moved. A Member: Suspension of Standing Orders. Mr Braidwood: It is just the suspension. 8805 The President: Suspension has been proposed and seconded. Are you speaking to the

suspension, sir? Mr Thomas: Yes, please, Madam President. 8810


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The President: Right. Mr Thomas: In January 2013, in the Taxation Strategy that the Treasury Minister referred to

earlier, Treasury policy was merely to consider joining this Convention. Congratulations to everybody: things have gone much faster than was even intended in the Strategy, and we are 8815 where we are. Congratulations to everybody.

Just three very brief questions for the Treasury Minister to address: (1) there is this Ponsonby principle that before a parliament something will be laid for 21 days if it is an international convention treaty. We have another convention on biological diversity, as it happens, which has been out to full public consultation recently. Can the Treasury Minister say whether or not he is 8820 establishing a precedent by considering a convention?

Mr Braidwood: Point of order, Madam President. We are talking about suspension of Standing Orders. 8825 A Member: He is talking about suspension of Standing Orders. The President: That is what the Hon. Member is addressing. Mr Karran: Yes, absolutely. The Member has a right to ask why he should justify – 8830 The President: He has a reason to justify why we should not suspend. Mr Thomas: And then the second very brief question is this one, which is that, as far as I can

tell, there are some major countries that have not yet ratified the Convention that we are being 8835 asked to ratify tonight, and I just wanted the Treasury Minister to assure this Hon. Court that it was necessary to go at this speed.

My third question is, and I did raise it in the meeting yesterday… Sorry, on that second point, in the UK it took them over a year. Canada, Luxemburg and

Germany have not yet ratified it. So I just wanted to hear from the Treasury Minister that we 8840 had to go at this speed.

And then thirdly, as I raised yesterday in the private meeting, there are some issues about cost. For instance, we have to pay to the co-ordinating body for this Convention. We are not exactly sure what work will be involved for the officers, and I just wanted reassurance from the Treasury Minister that all those matters are in hand and why we need to have that bit of 8845 ambiguity about the costs involved?

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, my concern about the suspension of Standing Orders… I know the 8850

problem we will have from Mr Shimmin is that we all vote against these things. The fact that we have had 33 Items on the main agenda and Liberal Vannin has voted for every one, apart from the last one… and this is the usual rubbish, and so I hope the Hon. Member –

The President: Hon. Member, the Hon. Member has not spoken yet. 8855 A Member: Absolutely. (Laughter and interjections) Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, what I am trying to say is the reason why I think it is important – 8860 The President: We are getting bit tetchy; it is late. Let’s concentrate on the issue.


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A Member: Hear, hear. Mr Karran: All I am saying is I think the points that the Hon. Member for West Douglas has 8865

raised need a clear response, and what I hope it does not end up with is a situation that we have seen where you get accused… just because you are doing your job as a parliamentarian, somehow you vote against everything. I am just highlighting the fact that 33 Items have been on the agenda and we voted against one on this agenda, and I just think it is important that the Member gets a reply in this Hon. Chamber. 8870

Mr Quirk: He is big enough to look after himself, isn’t he? The President: Mr Teare, do you want to comment? 8875 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I would probably surprise the Hon. Court by saying I agree 100% with Mr Karran: the Hon.

Member is entitled to a clear response. He asked three questions. The first was the notice. Yes, I concede we have moved on at a

very rapid pace, as the Hon. Member for West Douglas, Mr Thomas, has said. I would suggest 8880 though that the general direction of travel has been well flagged, but I do not regard this as being a precedent. In a way, you could regard this as being a collection of Tax Information Exchange Agreements (TIEAs) brought together at once – and that is coming from a ‘Teare’, but spelt differently. (Laughter)

The second part was the other countries: is it necessary to go at this speed? I feel it is. We 8885 need to move with the general pack. The other Crown dependencies and the Overseas Territories have already indicated that they have got the vires in place to deal with this, so I did not want us to wait a further month and then move. We have got a considerable amount of good will in the international community, which was reinforced to me during the last few days, by being a thought leader, by being responsible and being part of the international community. 8890 So I feel that we should go at this pace, although I do acknowledge that for some it is quick.

The third question was about costs, and I would like to reassure the Hon. Member that costs are very close to my heart – they do not call me ‘Scissorhands’ for nothing. Our experience of TIEAs so far – and we have 41 Double Taxation Agreements (DTAs) and TIEAs as I speak now – gives me a good indication that yes, there will be costs involved, but I feel that these costs are 8895 manageable. The TIEAs and the DTAs that we have at the moment are with the major countries and I would anticipate that most of the work will come from those major countries.

The Convention, once it is extended to us, will bring other countries into the agreement as well. I do not anticipate that would be a major increase of costs, but I am afraid I cannot give you a categoric assurance – I can only apologise for that – because we will only find out once we get 8900 in, but based on our previous experience I feel that it is not going to be a major item.

So with that, Madam President, I beg to move that Standing Orders be suspended. The President: Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 8905

3. Income Tax Act 1970 – Taxes (Mutual Assistance) Order 2013 approved


That the Taxes (Mutual Assistance) Order 2013 be approved. [SD 0320/13] The President: Item 3, Minister for the Treasury to move.


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The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. This Order will give effect to the Convention on Mutual Administrative Assistance in Tax 8910

Matters under the new section 104B of the Income Tax Act 1970. As I have already stated, joining this Convention is a logical step for the Island and is

something that has been on our radar for some time. Consideration of joining this Convention is part of the current Tax Strategy that was support by Tynwald in January 2013.

The Convention allows any country to make permitted reservations. Making a reservation 8915 means that, as far as that country is concerned, that particular aspect of the Convention is not applied. The reservations to be applied by the Island are set out in the Order.

The Order also details consequential amendments to section 105C to 105O of the Income Tax Act 1970, which are necessary to enable the Assessor to obtain information that may be subject to a request in accordance with the Convention. 8920

Before I move the motion, Madam President, I understand that there was a slight typo in the original draft Order which has now been corrected, so I would like to draw that to the Hon. Members’ attention. It has not any effect on the Order itself; it is purely an administrative matter.

So with that, Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 8925 The President: Hon. Members – Mr Braidwood: I beg to second – 8930 The President: Yes. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President. Just to clarify as well that the Hon. Minister has mentioned that we have already signed 41

TIEAs and DTAs and this will encompass another 25 countries, which are like TIEAs, and so in 8935 actual fact it will give near enough a total of 66.

The President: The motion before the Court is set out in Item 3 on your Supplementary Order

Paper No. 1. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The papers have already been laid under Item 4. 8940

5. Suspension of Standing Order 2.4(1)– Motion carried


That Standing Order 2.4(1) be suspended to the extent necessary to allow the business relating to the Regulation of Care Regulations 2013 to be taken. The President: We move to Item 5. The Minister for Social Care to move suspension of

Standing Orders. The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. The motion before Hon. Members seeks to suspend Standing Order 2.4(1) to the extent 8945

necessary to allow the business relating to the Regulation of Care Regulations 2013 to be taken. There are robust transitional provisions within the Regulation of Care Act for a staged

approach to both the conversion of currently regulated services and the registration of newly regulated services. This is triggered by the Appointed Day Order, which my Department will be


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timing to ensure all care services are aware and that the process can be managed effectively by 8950 the registration and inspections team, whilst still undertaking and fulfilling their inspection duties. I anticipate this process will begin from January 2014.

However, on Royal Assent, the majority of the Act’s provisions came into operation with immediate effect and therefore some regulations are required for effective implementation. This is to allow any new applications from current regulated services – for example, childminders 8955 – to be properly considered. Following Royal Assent, such applications will have to be considered under the new Regulation of Care Act. Certain regulations for registration will therefore need to be in place as they cannot be applied retrospectively to new applicants.

I hope Hon. Members will support the motion. Madam President, I beg to move. 8960

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 8965 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have no problems as far as the Order is concerned, but what I am

concerned about – 8970 The President: We are not on the Order, sir. We are on the suspension of Standing Orders at

the moment. Do you wish to – Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would like to ask the Hon. Member why have we not put it in the

right timescale to find ourselves having to suspend Standing Orders in the first place? This is the 8975 issue about trying to have proper parliamentary scrutiny on these issues. It is not personal, it is not wanting to have a go at the Government and all this sort of carry on that we hear from Mr Shimmin and the Chief Minister. It is about what a proper parliament does.

So I would be happy to hear the Hon. Member’s reasons why we find ourselves with this on a Supplementary Order Paper. 8980

The President: I think the mover gave that explanation when he moved the motion. Mr Karran: Can we hear it from him? 8985 The President: You did hear it from him, Hon. Member. A Member: Now, whether you understood it is a different matter. The President: Please reply, Hon. Minister. 8990 The Minister: If I can just give, Madam President, by way of example… The Regulations

cannot be made until the Bill has received Royal Assent. However, Members have received draft copies of the Regulations and an explanatory memorandum.

For example, the Regulation of Care Bill, having received Royal Assent today, is now in place; 8995 but if, say, on 17th October, a new application for childminder registration is submitted to registrations and inspections, as childminders are currently regulated, our registrations and inspections would process the application. However, rather than previously being considered under the Children and Young Persons Act, the application will now be considered under the Regulation of Care Act. 9000


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Whilst the majority of conditions are contained in the primary legislation, some are prescribed by regulations. These regulations therefore need to be made at the same sitting of Tynwald to be given immediate effect, as they cannot be applied retrospectively.

I hope that satisfies the Member. 9005 Two Members: Hear, hear. The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that Standing Orders be suspended. Those in

favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 9010

6. Regulation of Care Act 2013 – Regulation of Care (Boarding School Fees) Regulations 2013 approved


That the Regulation of Care (Boarding School Fees) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0340/13] The President: We move to Item 6, Hon. Members. The Minister for Social Care to move. 9015 Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. These Regulations set out the annual fees for performing the Department of Social Care’s

functions for inspecting schools where accommodation is provided for a child on the Island. The only school which falls within the definition is King William’s College, which the Department of Social Care currently inspects by agreement. 9020

As Hon. Members are aware, the Regulation of Care Act 2013 amends the Education Act 2001 to create statutory provisions for the inspection of schools where accommodation is provided for a child. The amendment also creates the power for the Department to impose a fee for those inspections. These Regulations are required in order to prescribe annual fees to cover the cost to the Department of inspecting schools where accommodation is provided for a child. 9025

I hope Hon. Members will support the motion. Madam President, I beg to move. The President: The motion before the Court, Hon. Members, is set out on – 9030 A Member: We need a seconder. The President: Oh, sorry. I am getting addled now! (Laughter) Mr Crowe: Mr Ronan. 9035 The President: Mr Ronan. Mr Ronan: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 9040 The President: If no Member wishes to speak, the motion before the Court is set out at

Item 6 on your Supplementary Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Thank you, Hon. Members. That concludes the business on our Order Papers.


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Council will now withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as 9045 Mr Speaker may put before them.

The Council withdrew.

House of Keys

Leave of absence granted

The Speaker: Hon. Members, I seek leave of absence of the House in order to attend the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly taking place next Tuesday, 22nd October. Is that agreed, Hon. Members? (Members: Agreed.) Thank you, Hon. Members.

In that case, the House will now stand adjourned until the next sitting, on 22nd October, with 9050 Deputy Speaker Singer in the chair. Thank you.

The House adjourned at 11.43 p.m.