oral history interviews robert [bob] l. bartarobert(bob)l.pdf · oral history interviews robert...

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEWSROBERT [BOB] L. BARTA

Ë Ë Ë Ë Ë Ë

STATUS OF INTERVIEWS:OPEN FOR RESEARCH

Ë Ë Ë Ë Ë Ë

Interview Conducted and Edited by:George PetershagenHistorianBureau of Reclamation

Ë Ë Ë Ë Ë ËInterview conducted–1994

Ë Ë Ë Ë Ë ËDesktop published by Brit Allan StoreyInterview edited and published–2009

Ë Ë Ë Ë Ë ËOral History ProgramBureau of ReclamationDenver, Colorado

SUGGESTED CITATION:

BARTA, ROBERT [BOB] L., ORAL HISTORYINTERVIEW. Transcript of tape-recorded Bureau ofReclamation Oral History Interview conducted by GeorgePetershagen, June 21, 1994, in Citrus Heights, California. Edited by George Petershagen and prepared for desktoppublication by Brit Allan Storey. Repository for the recordcopy of the interview transcript is the National Archivesand Records Administration in College Park, Maryland.

Record copies of this transcript are printed on 20 lb., 100%cotton, archival quality paper. All other copies are printedon normal duplicating paper.

i

Oral history of Robert (Bob) L. Barta

Table of Contents

Table of Contents . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . i

Statement of Donation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . vii

Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ix

Interviewer’s Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . xi

Oral History Interviews . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1Born in Omaha and Raised in Ashland, Nebraska

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1Graduated from the University of Nebraska in 1945

with a Degree in Electrical Engineering . . 2College Interrupted by World War II . . . . . . . . . . 3Spent a Summer Camp in the Civilian Military

Training Corps at Fort Snelling, Minnesota. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Went into the Army in September of 1941 . . . . . . 5Commissioned as a Second Lieutenant . . . . . . . . . 5Assigned to the 110th Engineers in the 35th Infantry

Division . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6Transferred to the 18th Engineers at Vancouver

Barracks, Washington . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8Worked on the Alcan Highway Beginning in April

of 1942 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8Took a Nap in the Bed Ulysses S. Grant Slept in

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8“Of course, gasoline was furnished to us in fifty-

five-gallon drums, and we learned to usethat fifty-five gallon drum immediately. Itwas not left, say overnight, half empty. Small crystals of ice would form in the gasand fog up the gas lines in vehicles. . . .” . . 9

Alcan Highway Construction Had to Be Adapted to

ii

Bureau of Reclamation History Program

the Presence of Permafrost . . . . . . . . . . . . 10Transferred to Kodiak Island and Staged for

Construction on Adak and the Invasion ofAttu Island . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11

Landed at Chiginagak to Build Roads and anAirfield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12

Served as Designated Electrical Engineer . . . . . . 12Had Two Crews, One for Inside Wiring of

Buildings and One for Transmission Lines. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12

Both Crews Worked When They Built Powerplantson the Islands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13

Worked Briefly for Beech Aircraft . . . . . . . . . . . 14Served in the Corps of Engineers During the War,

but Was in Various Non-Corps Units Whilein the Reserves . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16

Once Out of the Army Talked to Sentry Electric,GE, and Westinghouse . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17

Interviewed with Reclamation Through theEmployment Agency in Lincoln . . . . . . . 18

Went to Work in Denver in the PowerplantElectrical Design Section . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

After a Few Months at Reclamation GE OfferedHim a Trainee Position . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19

Housing Was Scarce in Denver . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20Worked in Denver for a Little over a Year and Then

Transferred to Billings in 1947 . . . . . . . . 21In Denver Worked on Design of the Powerplant at

Davis Dam . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23Worked in Billings about Twenty-three Years . . 26Spent a Lot of Time on the Reserves, Including

Vacation Time . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27Pick-Sloan Missouri Basin Program (PSMBP) . . 29Reclamation Controlled Power on the PSMBP for

Both Reclamation and the Corps at theControl Center in Watertown, South Dakota

iii


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29Reclamation Marketed PSMBP Power . . . . . . . . 30Worked in the Resource Development Section of

the Power Division in Billings . . . . . . . . . 31Became Chief of the Resource and Development

Branch in the Mid-1950s . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31Thomas Judah Headed the Planning Division in

Billings . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34Relations Between Denver and the Region . . . . . 37Steam Generating Plants Tend to Be Base-Loaded

and Hydropower Plants Are Peak-Loaded. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38

Navigation and Flood Control Dams Are BetterAble to Carry Base Load than Is anIrrigation Dam . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39

Was Assistant Regional Supervisor of PowerBefore Leaving Billings for Sacramento. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42

In His Early Years at Reclamation He Did NotTravel Much . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42

Being in the Reserves and Working at Reclamation. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43

Management Training Programs Began Just Prior toHis Move to Sacramento . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45

Started Skiing about 1960 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46Joined the Ski Patrol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47Mostly Did Planning for Construction Work . . . 48“We were quite interested in making sure that

somebody saw that they were maintainedwell enough that they did operate, and thatthey did operate in the manner in which wefelt was most efficient. . . .” . . . . . . . . . . . 48

Managed to Convince Reclamation to Increase theDesigned Capacity of the YellowtailPowerplant Thus Making it a Better PeakingPower Facility . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49

iv


Applied for the Job in Sacramento Because it WasUnlikely He Could Find a Promotion inBillings . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51

Supervisor in Billings Retired a Few Months afterHe Left to Go to Sacramento . . . . . . . . . . 53

The Regions Were Run Differently . . . . . . . . . . . 54Shortly after Arriving in Sacramento Was Put on

Temporary Assignment to Go toWashington, D.C., for about Six Weeks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55

“Well, anyway, I was not interested in going toWashington at that time. . . .” . . . . . . . . . 55

He Was Placed on Temporary Assignment to Be theChief of the Power Division in D.C. . . . . 56

It Took a While to Become Comfortable in theSacramento Office . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56

Moved to Sacramento in 1969 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57Became Active in the Sugar Bowl Ski Patrol . . . 58Belonged to a Masonic Lodge in Sacramento and

Did Church Work . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59Drove for Meals on Wheels for Several Years after

Retiring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60Did Volunteer Work at McClellan Air Force Base

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60Became Regional Supervisor of Power in

Sacramento . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 62Operations and Maintenance in the Power Division

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 62Marketing and Sale in the Power Division . . . . . 63“. . . biggest problem that we had then was in the

matching our rates with our repayment. . . .”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63

About the Time He Moved to SacramentoRepayment Studies Were BeingComputerized . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63

The Way Repayment Rates Were Calculated Before

v


Computers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64“Each region has small differences with their

facilities in the way they allocate costs todifferent functions. You can't take oneprogram and say it's going to work for theBureau all over. . . .” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64

About the Time He Retired Reclamation WasInvolved in Controversy Due to Raising theRates in the Central Valley Project . . . . . 65

“. . . Ken Holum . . . couldn't understand why I wascoming to California, because everythinghad been settled in California. . . .” . . . . . 66

Another Major Issue Was Reclamation’s Contractwith PG&E . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 66

Quit Working in December of 1974 . . . . . . . . . . 67Did Some Consulting Work after Retiring . . . . . 69Worked with the Truckee-Donner Public Utility

District Which Buys Power from thePowerplant at Boca Dam . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71

vi


(Intentionally blank)

vii


Statement of Donation

viii


ix


Introduction

In 1988, Reclamation began to create a historyprogram. While headquartered in Denver, the historyprogram was developed as a bureau-wide program.

One component of Reclamation’s history program isits oral history activity. The primary objectives ofReclamation’s oral history activities are: preservation ofhistorical data not normally available through Reclamationrecords (supplementing already available data on the wholerange of Reclamation’s history); making the preserved dataavailable to researchers inside and outside Reclamation.

In the case of the Newlands Project, the seniorhistorian consulted the regional director to design a specialresearch project to take an all around look at oneReclamation project. The regional director suggested theNewlands Project, and the research program occurredbetween 1994 and signing of the Truckee River OperatingAgreement in 2008. Professor Donald B. Seney of theGovernment Department at California State University -Sacramento (now emeritus and living in South Lake Tahoe,California) undertook this work. The Newlands Project,while a small- to medium-sized Reclamation project,represents a microcosm of issues found throughoutReclamation: water transportation over great distances; threeNative American groups with sometimes conflictinginterests; private entities with competitive and sometimesmisunderstood water rights; many local governments withgrowing water needs; Fish and Wildlife Service programscompeting for water for endangered species in Pyramid Lakeand for viability of the Stillwater National Wildlife Refuge tothe east of Fallon, Nevada; and Reclamation’s original wateruser, the Truckee-Carson Irrigation District, having to dealwith modern competition for some of the water supply that

x


originally flowed to farms and ranches in its community.

The senior historian of the Bureau of Reclamationdeveloped and directs the oral history program. Questions,comments, and suggestions may be addressed to the seniorhistorian.

Brit Allan StoreySenior Historian

Land Resources Office (84-53000)Office of Program and Policy ServicesBureau of ReclamationP. O. Box 25007Denver, Colorado 80225-0007(303) 445-2918FAX: (720) 544-0639E-mail: [email protected]

xi


Interviewer’s Introduction

Bob Barta was born in Omaha, Nebraska, onOctober 20, 1918. He attended schools in the ruralcommunity of Ashland, Nebraska, and graduated fromAshland High School. From there he entered theUniversity of Nebraska where he took a Bachelor ofScience Degree in Electrical Engineering.

In addition to his degree from Nebraska, Bartareceived a commission as a Second Lieutenant in the ArmyCorps of Engineers as a result of his participation in theCivilian Military Training Corps (CMTC) and ReserveOfficer Training Corps (ROTC). He was on active duty atthe time the United States entered World War II and wasassigned to the building of the Alaska-Canada (Alcan)Highway. Later tours of duty included assignments in theAleutian Islands. Released from active duty following thewar, Barta continued his service as an officer in the ArmyReserve, eventually becoming an artillery officer.

Returning to his home territory Barta soughtemployment with a number of electrical firms in Nebraskaand Missouri, but it was Reclamation that made the firstfirm offer of employment. Accepting that, Barta moved onto Denver where he located family housing and began hisduties in the Powerplant Design Section.

In 1947 Barta transferred to Billings, Montana,where he spent the largest share of his career withReclamation. Continuing in powerplant design heprogressed "through the ranks" in Billings in bothReclamation and the Army Reserve. Before leavingBillings he had risen to the position of Assistant RegionalPower Supervisor.

xii


When the regional power supervisor positionopened with the Mid-Pacific Region in Sacramento Bartaapplied and was selected. Shortly after reporting he wasgiven a temporary assignment in Washington, D. C. Eventually, he was able to return to Sacramento to becomeacquainted with a new staff and a whole new slate ofprojects to manage. Retiring in 1974, Barta engaged inconsulting work for five years before fully "retiring" to anactive life of volunteer service.

George Petershagen, Bureau of Reclamationhistorian, interviewed Bob Barta at the Barta residence inCitrus Heights, California, on June 21, 1994. BarbaraHeginbottom Jardee transcribed the interview, andPetershagen completed the editing.

1


Oral History InterviewsRobert [Bob] L. Barta

Petershagen: This is George Petershagen conducting aninterview of Bob Barta on behalf of the U.S.Bureau of Reclamation. Today's date isJune 21, 1994. We are in the Bartaresidence in Citrus Heights, California, andthis is Tape 1, Side A [1]. Mr. Barta retiredfrom the Bureau of Reclamation as the Chiefof the Power Division here in the Mid-Pacific Region in Sacramento.

Bob, to continue the administrativeduties to begin with, I need to make surethat you state on the tape that you agree tobe tape recorded.

Barta: Yes, that's okay.

Petershagen: And that you understand that you're makinga gift of this interview to the United States.

Barta: Yes, I understand.

Petershagen: Thank you. Let's get into it then. Wouldyou please tell us where and when you wereborn?

Born in Omaha and Raised in Ashland, Nebraska

Barta: October 20, 1918.

Petershagen: Where was that?

Barta: Omaha, Nebraska.

2


Petershagen: And you went to school in Omaha?

Barta: No, negative. I was raised in Ashland,Nebraska, and I attended the public schoolsthere.

Petershagen: Through high school there?

Barta: Yes.

Petershagen: And graduated from high school inAshland?

Barta: Yes, that's correct.

Petershagen: And went on to college from there?

Barta: That's correct, University of Nebraska.

Petershagen: The University of Nebraska?

Barta: That's correct.

Graduated from the University of Nebraska in1945 with a Degree in Electrical Engineering

Petershagen: And you graduated from the University ofNebraska?

Barta: Yes, I did.

Petershagen: With a degree in?

Barta: Electrical engineering, a BSEE in electricalengineering.

3

2. Note that in the text of these interviews, as opposed to headings,information in parentheses, ( ), is actually on the tape. Information inbrackets, [ ], has been added to the tape either by the editor to clarifymeaning or at the request of the interviewee in order to correct, enlarge,or clarify the interview as it was originally spoken. Words havesometimes been struck out by editor or interviewee in order to clarifymeaning or eliminate repetition. In the case of strikeouts, that material hasbeen printed at 50% density to aid in reading the interviews but assuringthat the struckout material is readable.


Petershagen: And what year would that have been?

Barta: I took my degree in 1945, I believe.

College Interrupted by World War II

Petershagen: So your college career was interrupted, then,by the Second World War?

Barta: Yes, it was.

Petershagen: And you had told me earlier that you were inthe Army, correct?


Petershagen: When did you join the Army?

Spent a Summer Camp in the Civilian MilitaryTraining Corps at Fort Snelling, Minnesota

Barta: Oh, my military career starts back when Iwas actually in high school yet. I spent asummer camp at CMTC in Minnesota, FortSnelling, Minnesota. Then I got into ROTC[Reserve Officer Training Corps]2 when I

4

The transcriber and editor have removed some extraneous words such asfalse starts and repetitions without indicating their removal. The meaningof the interview has not been changed by this editing.


was down to the University of Nebraska.

Petershagen: I see. You used the abbreviation CMTC. What does that stand for?

Barta: (Chuckles) Civilian Military TrainingCorps.

Petershagen: So that was kind of an introductory ROTC? Can I say it that way?

Barta: Not really. It was a program that was set upby the military, I believe, at that time toacquaint young men–well, we weren't reallymen–young boys, with the idea of militarylife, or what military life might be like. AndI think I spent about six weeks up there thatsummer.

Petershagen: I see, so it might have been comparable toboot camp, maybe, then? Or not as rigorousas boot camp, since you were still civilians,I don't know.

Barta: No, we were part of the military, as I wouldinterpret it, at least. And we trained. Yes, itwould be similar to a boot camp–not solengthy, perhaps, but we did train on . . . . Oh, the unit I was with trained on French .75artillery pieces.

5


Petershagen: And were they real artillery pieces, not thekind of mockups that I've seen in pre-WorldWar II movies?

Barta: Absolutely. This was right out of War I. (Laughter)

Petershagen: I see! Then you mentioned that your collegecareer was interrupted by the Second WorldWar. When did you actually go on activeduty with the Army?

Went into the Army in September of 1941

Barta: September of '41.

Petershagen: September of '41? So you're a pre-PearlHarbor soldier then.

Barta: Oh, yes.

Petershagen: Did you enlist in the Army, (Barta: No.) orwere you a commissioned officer when youstarted out?

Commissioned as a Second Lieutenant

Barta: I took my commission as a SecondLieutenant through ROTC, and I was aSecond Lieutenant at the time I went in. Iwas (Sigh) in my fifth year at the university,so I had completed all my ROTCrequirements at that time and had beencommissioned.

Petershagen: I see. And where was your first duty station

6


in the Army?

Assigned to the 110th Engineers in the 35th InfantryDivision

Barta: Fort Belvoir, Virginia. I was back there forsix weeks in a refresher course, I think theycalled it, for officer personnel. And then Iwas assigned to the 110th Engineers, aNational Guard outfit out of Kansas City,and they were located at that time in LittleRock, Arkansas–Camp Robinson.

Petershagen: Okay, and then where did you go fromCamp Robinson?

Barta: Well, after Pearl Harbor–I guess that's whatinitiated all of this–we were transported, theentire division was transported to the WestCoast. The 110th, by the way, was part ofthe 35th Infantry Division. We weretransported to the West Coast, Fort Ord,California. That's where we ended upinitially, and then down to Camp San LuisObispo, south of Fort Ord.

Petershagen: And how long were you there?

Barta: Really, not too long. We moved out in mid-December, put it that way. We were downat San Luis Obispo when I moved out. As Irecall, it was about mid-March, orthereabouts, of 1942 at that time.

Petershagen: And were you married by that time?

7


Barta: Oh, yeah. I was married in October of '41.

Petershagen: So just about the same time you went onactive duty with the Army then?

Barta: I think it's more than coincidental, yes.

Petershagen: (Laughs) Would you care to explain that alittle bit?

Barta: No, no, we had planned to be married. Mywife was working at the time, at BeechAircraft in Wichita. I had worked downthere prior to being called to active duty. We had planned on a marriage in the fall, assoon as I got through school. The Army justpushed it just a little bit faster than wewould normally have otherwise.

Petershagen: Did she go with you to California, then, orto any of these other intermediate places?

Barta: Oh, yeah. She was with me from the time Icame back from Fort Belvoir. We weremarried then, down in Little Rock. She, as amatter of fact, got to Fort Ord before I did. The ladies in the unit had a very excellentintelligence capability–I'll just put it thatway–and knew where we were going beforewe did.

Petershagen: I found that myself, oftentimes, when I wasin the service, that I could ask my wife whatwas happening next.

Transferred to the 18th Engineers at Vancouver

8


Barracks, Washington

Barta: Then in mid-March or thereabouts, I wastransferred to the 18th Engineers, thenlocated at Vancouver Barracks, Washington.

Petershagen: And how long were you in Vancouver?

Barta: Well, we left the states in April, as I recall.

Petershagen: Still of 1942?

Worked on the Alcan Highway Beginning in Aprilof 1942

Barta: Oh, yeah. We were the initial troops on theAlcan [Alaska-Canada] Highway, starting atWhitehorse, Yukon Territory, and built thePioneer Road from Whitehorse to theAlaskan-Canadian border around BeaverCreek, Yukon Territory.

Took a Nap in the Bed Ulysses S. Grant Slept in

Petershagen: Okay, before we get too far involved that farnorth, I want to make sure I get on the tapethat I believe you told me in our initialmeeting that when you were at Vancouveryou slept in the same bed as General[Ulysses S. Grant] Grant? (Both chuckle)

Barta: Well, yes, I did, very briefly. My wife waswith me at the time, and we did havequarters off the post. But I did take a nap orsomething. Anyway, I was in his bed. (Laughter)

9


Petershagen: So roughly in April 1942 is when you wentnorth to work on the Alcan Highway?

Barta: I believe that's correct.

Petershagen: Now, with being a young man in theMidwest, in just a few months' time you sawjust about every different climate you canfind in the United States. Did you have anyphysical reaction to that at all?

Barta: Not particularly. If you live in easternNebraska, where I was born and raised, youbecome acquainted to the extremes oftemperature quite early. I had seen twentybelow temperatures in Ashland, the littletown I lived in. But the first night I was inthe Yukon, it was as cold as I'd ever seen it. I think it was twenty-five below zero thatnight. But we had clothing and we werewell equipped to handle that sort of thing. No, there wasn't any particular traumainvolved in this.

Petershagen: I see. How about with the machinery or theequipment? Anything special that you hadto do with regard to the cold?

“Of course, gasoline was furnished to us in fifty-five-gallon drums, and we learned to use that fifty-five gallon drum immediately. It was not left, sayovernight, half empty. Small crystals of ice would

form in the gas and fog up the gas lines invehicles. . . .”

Barta: Well, of course, we really didn't get into

10


the . . . In April, it was starting to thaw outup there, and we didn't have that muchproblem with the machinery until thecoming winter. But yes, we learned to usethe gasoline in . . . . Of course, gasoline wasfurnished to us in fifty-five-gallon drums,and we learned to use that fifty-five gallondrum immediately. It was not left, sayovernight, half empty. Small crystals of icewould form in the gas and fog up the gaslines in vehicles. So yes, once thetemperatures turned extreme that comingwinter, most vehicles were kept runningaround the clock, for the reason (Laughs)otherwise they didn't get them started verywell.

Petershagen: (Laughs) How long were you involved inthe highway construction?

Barta: We went in in April, and we left, as I recall,in about January the following year. So that300 to 400 miles we built was constructed inthat time, or that segment anyway.

Petershagen: So as far as highway construction goes, itwasn't all that much different from ahighway project here in the lower forty-eight then?

Barta: Oh, I think it's quite different.

Petershagen: Oh, you do. Okay.

Alcan Highway Construction Had to Be Adaptedto the Presence of Permafrost

11


Barta: Oh, yeah. In the first place, here in thelower forty-eight, you scrape off thevegetation and you put your stuff down,your road shell. Not so in the Yukon. Wefound quickly there, early on, that you didnot disturb the vegetation on top of theground. It acted as an insulator to thepermafrost. And once you disturb that, thepermafrost just kept melting, and you werein big trouble. So we built the road, insteadof clearing the territory, or the right-of-way,as it were, with bulldozers down to bareearth . . . . For instance, we were goingthrough small timbered areas, a lot of them. Those trees were cut and laid across theright-of-way in sort of a corduroy fashion,and then the road shell was placed on top ofthat. We were particularly interested instaying on the sunny side of the slopes,because those were the slopes that wouldperhaps not have the permafrost in them. Inany case, they built the road the same way,as far as I can recall, once we learned how todo things properly.

Petershagen: I see. And then from the highway project,where did you go?

Transferred to Kodiak Island and Staged forConstruction on Adak and the Invasion of Attu

Island

Barta: We were transferred to . . . . We went toKodiak Island just at the, I guess the easternend, you'd say, of the Aleutian Islands, and

12


staged–got all our equipment there–and thenmoved from there on out into the AleutianIslands. Continued staging and doing someconstruction on Adak, and then acted asbackup troops or reserve troops for theinvasion on Attu, bypassing Kiska.

Landed at Chiginagak to Build Roads and anAirfield

Once the area was pretty well secured onAttu, we were then landed at Chiginagak[Bay], Alaska, and the unit constructedroads, buildings, and an air field and theother utility facilities that were required.

Petershagen: Did you get, in the course of your time, withthe Corps experience in utilities and soforth, then, other than just road-building andrunway construction kind of thing?

Served as Designated Electrical Engineer

Barta: No, I was never in the–once we were in theislands I was designated as the electricalengineer on the island for our unit, andplanned and hard hat constructed theelectrical facilities, such as they were. I waspermitted to order out to cover the entireisland, including wiring. We wired all thebuildings that were constructed there–that is,my crew.

Had Two Crews, One for Inside Wiring ofBuildings and One for Transmission Lines

13


I had, actually, two crews. I had what Icalled an interior wiring crew, then the linecrew, and the line crew built the distributionlines–we'll call them that– around the islandto the points where power was needed.

Both Crews Worked When They Built Powerplantson the Islands

We also used both crews when we wereconstructing small powerplants all over theislands. It's been several years, as youknow, since all this occurred, and I don'trecall how many powerplants we had, butthere were, oh (Sigh) essentially apowerplant in each major unit area.

On the island we had Seabees whodid some of their own, but we also had AirCorps people–called Army Air Corps at thattime. We furnished the power for theirelectrical facilities including runwaylighting, the hospital . . . . We furnished thepower to the hospital. Of course, wired upall those buildings on the hospital area,including the installation of the backup oremergency generation system that they hadfor their surgical area. If our power wentoff, then that generator was to kick in andkeep things lighted so that the doctors and the nurses there could continue withwhatever duties they were doing at the time.

Petershagen: So there is a tie-in then with what you didduring the Second World War and what youdid later on in your civilian career?

14


Barta: Oh, yeah, very definitely.

Petershagen: If we can take a little tangent here, you said,I think, you worked for Beech Aircraftbefore you went in the Army?

Worked Briefly for Beech Aircraft

Barta: Yes, that's correct.

Petershagen: And about how long was that?

Barta: Oh, not very long. Let's see. It was afterschool was out in probably late May or earlyJune until I got my orders in earlySeptember.

Petershagen: I see. And when you say you got yourorders in early September, was this a call-upor did you volunteer to go on active duty?

Barta: No, no, no, this was a call-up. They calledreserve officers back to active duty at thattime, yeah–(Petershagen: I see.) quite anumber of us, as a matter of fact. It was notunexpected. The Guard had been called outin December of the year before, and wewere to augment those Guard units. Ofcourse, they were up for only a year, whilewe were actually called back for only a year,too. The year kind of got extended,however, but . . .

Petershagen: It's always said that everyone that was alivethen can remember exactly what they weredoing on Pearl Harbor Day. Is that true of

15


Bob Barta?

Barta: (Chuckles) Well, yes, I think pretty muchso. We were in Little Rock in our apartmentas I recall, and were preparing to go out fordinner with a friend of mine. He wasassigned to the same unit. As a matter offact, he was best man at our wedding. Wewere both called to active duty at the sametime, had gone through university together,and called to active duty at the same time,and was assigned to the same unit. So,yeah, we were waiting to go.

Petershagen: And what was your reaction when you heardthe news?

Barta: Well, I guess we were astounded. That, too,has been a long time ago. We were ratherapprehensive, I suppose, inasmuch as weknew things would be quite uncertain fromthen on.

Petershagen: I see. Have we just about covered, then,your active duty military career?

Barta: Well, the active duty part of it, yeah. Afterthe war, I continued in the Reserves, andended up completing the requirements forretirement in the Reserves.

Petershagen: And that was in the Army Reserve, not theNational Guard, correct?

Barta: No, no, no, this is Army Reserve. That'scorrect.

16


Petershagen: And I believe you told me before thateventually you were no longer associatedwith the Corps of Engineers. You were inan artillery unit?

Served in the Corps of Engineers During the War,but Was in Various Non-Corps Units While in the

Reserves

Barta: That's true, yes. Of course I was releasedfrom active duty as a Captain in the Corps ofEngineers. I joined, among others, but Ijoined an anti-aircraft unit that was thenactive in Billings, Montana. This was aReserve unit. I, of course, kept mycommission in the Corps of Engineers, but Iended up as . . . Well, first I was the adjutantin the unit, then I ended up as the executiveofficer in that unit. That unit then wasconverted to field artillery, and thecommanding officer that we had at that timein the ack-ack [anti-aircraft] chose not to goalong with the field artillery, and I did. Icommanded that unit then, oh, for quite awhile, a number of years. And prior to(Chuckles) getting a promotioncommensurate with the duties that I wasperforming, I had to convert to artillerythrough a series of quite extensivecorrespondence courses that I took. I don'trecall how many hours of correspondence,but my family rather suffered because ofthat, for about a year-and-a-half or so. Ispent all my time working oncorrespondence.

17


Petershagen: I see. And you were discharged from theArmy immediately after the war?

Barta: No, I was just released from active duty.

Petershagen: Released from active duty, excuse me.

Barta: There's a big difference. (Petershagen: Right.) They still had a hold on me becauseI chose to stay in the Reserves.

Petershagen: So you're now a civilian after about four-and-a-half years, I guess, of active duty. What led you to the Bureau of Reclamation? Did you go straight there from the Army?

Once Out of the Army Talked to Sentry Electric,GE, and Westinghouse

Barta: Yes. I guess as a practical matter it was notexactly straight. I came back to Lincoln,Nebraska, after the war, and had interviewedfor a position with Sentry Electric, and,well, I had contacted Sentry Electric andGeneral Electric and Westinghouse in St.Louis at that time. Sentry Electric hadoffered me a position. It wasn't particularlyattractive, but it was a good outfit.

Then I guess my next interview was withGeneral Electric–GE, I'd better say–and theywere on strike at the time and would notcommit themselves to anything. No, no,let's back up on that. I contacted GenerousElectric [General Electric] after I had beento St. Louis. The offer came from

18


Westinghouse in St. Louis. Seemed to me abetter way to go in comparison with SentryElectric. So I accepted. But it wasnecessary that I return to Nebraska–Lincolnwe were staying in at the time–to get my–well, get better prepared–clothes andmaterial and all that. When I got back toLincoln the next morning, I had a telegramfrom a Westinghouse representative whosaid in words that I had talked to the wrongperson and I needed to . . . They were notable to offer me a position at that time. So Ithen contacted General Electric who alsowere on strike. That didn't work well. Theyjust couldn't offer me anything and kept myapplication on file.

Interviewed with Reclamation Through theEmployment Agency in Lincoln

In looking around I found the Bureauof Reclamation, I guess through theemployment agency there in Lincoln. Iinterviewed, and it seemed like it would be areasonable use of my talents for the work, soI accepted that position out there.

Went to Work in Denver in the PowerplantElectrical Design Section

Petershagen: By "out there," you mean in Denver.

Barta: In Denver.

Petershagen: And what was that first position?

19


Barta: I was a P-1 engineer–I guess you call them"junior engineer"–in the electrical,Powerplant Electrical Design Section. (Aside to cat) That's the way my careerstarted, after I'd been working there forabout . . . Oh, I might even add that duringthis time I had contacted other agencies, too,one of which was the Corps of Engineersitself, since they were right there in Omaha.

After a Few Months at Reclamation GE OfferedHim a Trainee Position

And anyway, after I'd been working for theBureau for a matter of, oh, (Sigh) severalmonths, I'd guess two or three, maybe evenlonger, General Electric then came back andhad offered me a position back inSchenectady in their training program. Ideclined on the grounds that I had juststarted this job, and I didn't want to flip-flopall that fast.

Petershagen: "This job" was the Bureau of Reclamation?

Barta: Yes.

Petershagen: Let me stop you right there, because thisside of the tape is going to run out on us realquick.

END SIDE 1, TAPE 1. JUNE 21, 1994.BEGIN SIDE 2, TAPE 1. JUNE 21, 1994.

Petershagen: Bob, we left you with some brief tenure withthe Bureau, and you had just declined a job

20


offer from General Electric in favor of theBureau. Can you maybe give us somethoughts on what immediate-post-WorldWar II Denver was like and settling yourfamily in, in Denver?

Housing Was Scarce in Denver

Barta: Well, yeah. After the war, the housing ofcourse was very tight, all over the country, Iexpect, and it certainly was in Denver. Denver was a nice little town at the time,compared to what it is today, at least. It wasa fairly large city, even then. I did havesome friends–they were family friends–thatI stayed with prior to finding a place for mywife and our first youngster. It was abasement room, but in the same area Ifound, riding the bus back and forth todowntown where we worked at that time inthe Golden Eagle building–one of thefellows on the bus mentioned that his familyhad an apartment that was coming vacant. Of course, I inquired immediately as to itsavailability, and we did then rent that placeand stayed there until we left Denver. Well,anyway, we stayed in Denver, let's see, Ican't recall when I first went to Denver. Itseems to me around May or thereabouts. And that fall I remember a terriblesnowstorm, as I remember aroundThanksgiving time.

By the way, my wife and I would spend ourweekends from time-to-time, back inLincoln. It was a rather lengthy drive, even

21


those days, but this one Thanksgiving there,I think we were about approachingThanksgiving . . . It wasn't either, it wasprior to that, it was–we were going to have afew days off during the election in that year,in early November–terrible snowstorm(Chuckles) went through there. Four feet ofsnow all over every place. We didn't makeit.

But generally speaking, our experiences inDenver were very cordial. We met lots ofnice people and even proposed to buy ahouse out in, I guess it would be called, EastDenver. Denver seemed to be moving out(Chuckles) in that direction. And several ofthe fellahs lived out in that area.

Petershagen: By "several of the fellahs," you mean yourcoworkers?

Barta: Yes.

Worked in Denver for a Little over a Year andThen Transferred to Billings in 1947

Petershagen: How long were you in Denver?

Barta: Well, this would be the next year, theBureau had a reduction in force took place,so we left Denver in about June–or I did,anyway–May or June of the following year. So I was in Denver for a year, but not ayear-and-a-half.

Petershagen: I'm losing track now. When you say "the

22


following year," we're talking about 1947 to'48?

Barta: Let's see, I came back. Our youngster wasborn in '46. I went to work in '46. Then in'47 is when we were transferred to Billings. They had a reduction in force down there. Johnny Walker who started–the regionalsupervisor of power in Billings and visitedthe unit and was looking for people to betransferred to Billings. I guess he thoughtI'd be all right. I checked with some friendsof ours who were Montana folks, living inColorado, by the way, at the time, in Denver–well, in Boulder–(Chuckles) to see whatthis north country was like, this Billingsstuff. (Petershagen chuckles) They assuredme it would be satisfactory. So I acceptedthat and we were transferred then toBillings. That would be in '47.

Petershagen: I see. Then was this a move that you reallylooked forward to, or you kind ofapproached it with the attitude of, "Well, Iguess I have to do it if I want to stay withthe Bureau" or what were your feelingsabout that?

Barta: Well, the employment situation wasn't allthat great yet, and it was going to be anexperience, (Chuckles) I guess. The way itwas explained to me at the time, it seemedlike it might be an adequate place to–Iwould be comfortable there.

Petershagen: I see, and this was in roughly the equivalent

23


position of what you held in Denver?

Barta: Yeah. I can't remember whether I waspromoted in Denver. It seems to me I was,from a P-1 to a P-2. So I went to Billings asa P-2, as I recall anyway. But you're stillpretty junior engineers. In Denver I wasdoing a lot of work in powerplant electricaldesign.

In Denver Worked on Design of the Powerplant atDavis Dam

Principally I worked on the Parker-DavisProject work, and specifically the DavisPowerplant–the Davis Dam and Powerplant. I expect I drew a hundred different drawingsof Davis Dam Powerplant and it's facilitiesin regard to the electrical facilitiesnecessary. I was introduced there to isolatedphase bus arrangements, which I had notbeen aware of prior to that time–they werenew to me, and I think they were fairly newto the industry.

Petershagen: What does that term mean to me? And howis it different from whatever you were usedto? (Both chuckle)

Barta: In effect, it was the conductors that took thepower from the generator to thetransformers, still in the powerplant area. Usually they used a cable gallery to do that. This powerplant was designed in such amanner that . . . . In the construction of thepowerplant, they discovered a fault under

24


the area that that powerplant would beresting. The dam had been constructed, sothey were now figuring out the powerplant. The powerplant had to be moved to anangle. Normally, the powerplant isimmediately downstream from the dam. Well, this meant that the powerplant wasseparated by several, something like thirtydegrees–I don't recall exactly, but quite abit, from the downstream face of the dam. So the cable runs from the far generatorsdown to the transformer deck became aproblem, and that's the reason they went tothis isolated phase bus arrangement–ratherthan cable galleries. It just wasn't feasible toput a cable gallery in, I guess.

Petershagen: Now, in considering this move, how much isyour career in the Army Reserve a factor asyou move around? Obligations therebecome a consideration at all?

Barta: Well, no. They were not a factor in whetherwe moved or didn't move. While we werein Denver I had no assignment in a Reserveunit. As a matter of fact, I wasn't doinganything in the Reserves, I was just assignedto the Reserves.

Petershagen: So your name was on a list, essentially.

Barta: That's all.

Petershagen: Then when you went to Billings, did youjoin a Reserve unit there?

25


Barta: Yes, I did. Billings (Chuckles) made up atthat time of a lot of professional people whowere ex-Army or ex-Navy or ex-military, atleast, and a lot of them had stayed in theReserves. Happened to be one of the fellahsthat was in the Power Division started acomposite unit where we just took ineverybody into this unit. It was prettyinformal sort of training, but we wereorganized into a commander and theexecutive officer and the staff personnel,and then the engineers that were availablewere segregated into engineer units, and theNavy was into Navy units. And ultimately,the composite unit was disbanded, and thevarious units remained. The Navy had quitea nice installation there. The Army hadinfantry units, artillery units, and theengineering units, all separate, at that time.

Petershagen: And it was in Billings that you startedgaining your artillery experience, I take it?

Barta: Oh, yeah.

Petershagen: This relationship then of so manyprofessional people in Reserve units, andsome of your fellow workers in those units,must have worked together somehow inBillings "society"–I'll say that for lack of abetter word.

Barta: Oh, yeah. We had people in the Bureau whowere Navy. As a matter of fact, one was aNavy Captain, equivalent to an ArmyColonel, bird Colonel. And he was, of

26


course the head man in the Navy section, buthe worked at the table next to me. Let's see,there was at least another Navy person there. Army people, there were several of themaround, yeah. The anti-aircraft artilleryofficer that ended up commanding that unitwas the Bureau's field solicitor at that time.

Petershagen: So you had an on-board support group,even, so to speak.

Barta: You might say so.

Petershagen: And how long were you in Billings?

Worked in Billings about Twenty-three Years

Barta: We were there about twenty-three years.

Petershagen: Just got acquainted, huh? (Chuckles)

Barta: Well, no, we raised our family there, ofcourse. And Billings is still pretty muchhome to us. We have no family left there,but we have a lot of friends there–more sothan we have in California, even thoughwe've lived here longer than we lived there. And I think the reason for that is that ourkids were growing up, and so we got verywell acquainted with other families, andthose families, some of them, are still there.

Petershagen: Did you involve yourself in kids' kind ofactivities–their schooling, Little League, anyof that kind of stuff in Billings?

27


Spent a Lot of Time on the Reserves, IncludingVacation Time

Barta: Not personally, no–not as much, perhaps, asI should have. Looking back, I should have. I spent an awful lot of my time in theReserves working on the unit's problems,going to summer camps almost everysummer. This is how we spent ourvacations. No, my wife was quite active inthe Cub Scouts. We had two boys and theywere both cubbies. I think she did somework in the Girl Scout units–I recall those asBrownies, I guess. But I'm sorry to say Iwas too occupied.

Petershagen: You mentioned your two sons. Did youhave girls, too?

Barta: Yes, I had one girl, one daughter.

Petershagen: Now Billings was a regional office at thetime you went there? (Barta: That'scorrect.) And what did we call that region?

Barta: That was Region VI of the Bureau ofReclamation. And it covers primarily theUpper Missouri River area: Montana, Northand South Dakota, parts of Minnesota, Iowa,Nebraska, and a little bit of Wyoming.

Petershagen: A fairly large Region, then, it's safe to say?

Barta: I'd say so.

Petershagen: Now, in that Region, part of the projects, as

28


I understand it, are part of the Pick-SloanMissouri Basin Project, and others are not–correct?

Barta: Well, back up just a moment. When I wentup there, it was the Pick-Sloan Plan that wasbeing constructed. The main stem of theMissouri River facilities were a Corps ofEngineers, part of the Army. The off-stream–that is, off mainstream–developments were all Bureau ofReclamation. The Bureau's projectsremained the water storage projects, as Iwould term them. The Corps' projects werestorage projects, but for a different purpose–the main purpose being navigation and floodcontrol, with some irrigation storage spacemade available. I suppose you could say theBureau participations in the off-mainstreamreservoirs were storage for irrigationpurposes and for flood control, rather thannavigation. The Corps' were all the hugeprojects–the Bureau's were, by comparison,rather small.

Petershagen: Where does the term Pick-Sloan comefrom? What did that mean?

Barta: Well, General [Lewis A.] Pick was theCorps of Engineers or the Army person whoplanned the development of the MissouriRiver; and [William G.] Sloan was theDepartment of Interior man who had asimilar plan for the development of theMissouri Basin in regard to . . . Of course,Pick was for navigation and flood control,

29


and Sloan primarily supported irrigationdevelopment of irrigation projects. And itwas recognized early on that there had to bea compromise of some type, apparently. Soby the time I got there, that compromise hadbeen completed, and we were workingunder, quote, "the Pick-Sloan Plan."

Petershagen: Was that really any different as it applied toyour work from any other project? Wasthere anything special in the Pick-Sloan Planthat affected how you went about yourwork?

Pick-Sloan Missouri Basin Program (PSMBP)

Barta: Well, of course, all the work that was doneon the main stem dams and reservoirs wascoordinated through the Corps' office inOmaha. We, the Bureau, in Region VI atleast, worked with them on–I rather hate tocall it consulting, I don't think that's quitethe term–but they developed a managementteam for the development of all this, which Isuppose was in concert with the idea behindthe Pick-Sloan Plan anyway, but theBureau–our personnel–did advise on thereleases of water and were consulted as faras the facilities that would be placed in thedams.

Reclamation Controlled Power on the PSMBP forBoth Reclamation and the Corps at the Control

Center in Watertown, South Dakota

For instance, the power facilities, the

30


Bureau–our office–had a lot of work incoordinating the development of the powerfacilities in the Corps dams, from thestandpoint that these reservoirs would beproducing rather tremendous amounts ofpower, had to be fitted into the powerrequirement characteristics of the area, andultimately would be coordinated by theBureau of Reclamation's control center thatwas ultimately installed in Watertown,South Dakota, after the power system waspretty much, pretty well, developed. That is,the transmission lines were constructed,distribution facilities, substations and thelike, the power has been sold, and theoperations then were coordinated betweenWatertown and Omaha as to where thepower would be generated, when, and inwhat amounts, and that sort of thing.

Reclamation Marketed PSMBP Power

Petershagen: And the power was marketed by the Bureau,even though it came from Corps dams,correct?

Barta: That's correct. The Bureau had it's ownhydroelectric units in the area. Well, in theUpper Missouri we had Canyon Ferry, thenlater on–well, there's Boysen. Now Boysenwas an early small powerplant there. Ibelieve that was marketed down through theRegion VII area, which would be the LowerMissouri Basin. And Yellowtail, which wasmarketed through the upper area. But as Isay, primarily . . . . There were a few other

31


smaller plants that the Bureau had, but theywere not of the capability of the large Corpsplants.

Petershagen: You went to Billings as a P-2 Engineer, Ithink you said. (Barta: That's right.) So atthat time you still were not in any sort of asupervisory position, is that correct?

Worked in the Resource Development Section ofthe Power Division in Billings

Barta: No. I was just one of the engineers in theResource Development Section of the PowerDivision there. There were three principalsections in the Power Division: theResource and Development–well, this is theway it was worked throughout the Bureau Ibelieve–the Resource Development, theMarketing and Sales, and the Operation andMaintenance. At the time, early on, when Ifirst went to Billings the big need was inResource Development, and we had morepeople in that section. Marketing was oneor two people, and Operation andMaintenance I think consisted of one or twopeople. Most of them were in ResourceDevelopment.

Petershagen: And about when did you actually move intoa supervisory position?

Became Chief of the Resource and DevelopmentBranch in the Mid-1950s

Barta: Well (Chuckle) I should have looked this

32


up, I suppose, but . . . . The RegionalSupervisor of Power, Johnny Walker, leftthe Bureau and my boss, who had beenChief of the R&D Branch, moved up to bethe new Supervisor of Power, and at thattime I moved into the area being the Chiefof the Resource Development Branch. Oh,my goodness, went up there in '47, I'm justguessing, mid-'50s maybe. I don'tremember.

Petershagen: Okay. If you could look back in those earlyyears and identify somebody that may havebeen a mentor, who would that be?

Barta: You asked me that question before, and I'vebeen thinking about it, and I can't come backand say that there was any one person whowas a mentor. There was nobody lookingout after my interests particularly, as Irecall.

Petershagen: I see. Anybody that you really looked up tothat you may have admired in the Bureau?

Barta: Yeah, he happened to be the field solicitorfor the Bureau. Well, he was not theBureau, he was with Interior.

Petershagen: And who was that?

Barta: Well, his name was Al Buelfeld, the fieldsolicitor at that time–well, until he retired,even after I left there. He was also mycommanding officer in the Reserve unit.

33


Petershagen: I see a real integration between your workwith the Bureau and the Reserve unit in yourlife. (Barta: Oh yeah, I think so.) There's areal connection there that may not have beenin other people's careers.

Barta: Perhaps not.

Petershagen: In our initial meeting . . .

Barta: I have to back up and say there's a lot ofpeople that I suppose influenced a person asthey go through their career. I can't think ofanybody I classify as a mentor. That's whatyou were asking specifically?

Petershagen: Right, specifically that. It's interesting thatsome people can put their finger right onone individual, and others would be just likeyou . . .

Barta: I think I worked quite well with a number ofpeople, starting, I guess, when I first went towork in Denver. I know (Chuckles) SidEvans was the head of the powerplantelectrical design at that time, and he camearound and after I'd been working six weeks,something was said, "What was my gains inlife, and my aims what I might do?" And Isaid, "Well, right at the moment, I'm lookingat your job." (Laughter) I don't know if thathad anything to do with my beingtransferred (Chuckles), but . . . . No, we gotalong all right. I enjoyed working withthose people. I knew lots of them. Theybecame real good friends.

34


Petershagen: I would think that in a smaller town, such asBillings, that the professional communitywould really be kind of a cohesive group,whereas in larger areas, such as Sacramentohere, we're scattered all over.

Barta: Well, that's true. There were several groupsthat we associated with–"we," my wife andI–either together or separately. The people Iplayed golf with–there was a golf club thatstarted there–and I knew these kind ofpeople. They were all walks of life inBillings. There's the lawyers and thebankers and the doctors and whatever. Theyhad a small country club at the time, but not. . . A lot of people played at the publiccourses. Then there was, of course, thepeople that I associated with when I was inthe Reserves. The people that we squaredanced with, again, all different walks oflife. People that I skied with were adifferent group. Some of them might beoverlapping, but not too many. Some ofthese people worked for the Bureau. Manydid not. Many were from other privategroups.

Petershagen: All right, let me stop you right there,because I think this tape is about to run outon us once again.


Thomas Judah Headed the Planning Division inBillings

35

3. Theodore Judah was the Chief Engineer of the Central PacificRailroad during its organization and initial construction . [Ed.]


Petershagen: Bob, during your career at Billings you hadtold me in our initial meeting that you cameacross a gentleman named Thomas Judah. (Barta: Oh, yes.) And I believe you said hewas the grandson of Theodore Judah?3 (Barta: I believe that's correct.) I've beenkind of curious about that ever since youmentioned it, because I think reallyTheodore Judah didn't get his due here inCalifornia until fairly recently. It wasengineering societies, I think, rather thanhistorians that really made his nameprominent in California. I wonder if youever had a chance to talk to Thomas Judahabout his grandfather. And if you couldfollow that up with, it seems to me, if mylast name were Judah, and I were anengineer, I would somehow want to getmyself back to California, eventually. Didhe ever express a desire to do that?

Barta: Well, you got a couple of points in there, toofast I guess, or at least I didn't follow them. In the first place, I didn't know that TomJudah–when Tom was still alive in Billings,I didn't know that his grandfather wasTheodore. I didn't know that until I cameout here. If I knew it, it didn't really registeras being very important at the time. I'vedone some reading about him since, andyou're absolutely correct, I didn't think that

36


he got the recognition–that is, Theodoredidn't–that he should have. Now Tom Judahwas the planning engineer, head of thePlanning Division in Billings, comparable toJohnny Walker, regional supervisor ofpower. I became acquainted with Tom notonly through the work, but we both joinedthe YMCA, and we worked out three times aweek. And you get to know a person prettywell, doing that. I liked Tom. He's all right.

Petershagen: Did he ever express a desire to transfer toCalifornia?

Barta: Not to my recollection, no. Now, after hepassed away, his wife did come toSacramento. I think she may have had asister or somebody here in Sacramento. Ithink their son, at least one of their sons,was in San Francisco at the time. I've losttrack of them since. I don't know wherethey are. But ironically, I don't think any ofhis sons became engineers–at least I don'tknow if that's so. I think the one in SanFrancisco was a musician. His wife was avery accomplished musician, by the way–avery nice person.

Petershagen: That's certainly off the subject of Bob Barta. (Barta: Yes it is!) But it's a point of interestthat is worth getting on the tape.

Barta: Well, it was after she came here and I had anopportunity to talk to her that she mentionedthat Theodore was his grandfather. I don'tthink it was great-grandfather. It could have

37


been, but I don't recall now, but I don't thinkso. Anyway, after that, I got kind ofinterested in Theodore and I went and didsome reading and came to the conclusionthat you just stated that he didn't get therecognition at the time.

Petershagen: Let's get back on the subject of Bob Barta.

Barta: Okay. (Laughter)

Petershagen: What was the "relationship," I'll say,between Denver and the Billings Office? Alot of times field office people have atendency to feel like the headquarters guysare always messing in their business. Didyou ever have any of those feelings?

Relations Between Denver and the Region

Barta: Oh, I don't think so. I felt that there waspretty much a matter of cooperation betweenthe two. The professionals in the fieldrecognized the expertise of the people inDenver. They had their specialties and werelied heavily on them for such things ascost data. The Bureau I think early on hadthe idea that, well, they were all run by civilengineers, rather than the whole spectrum ofengineers, as, you know, mechanicals,electricals, and all the rest. Anyway, thepowerplants should be designed to producepower on the basis of a fifty percent loadfactor. If there was a controversy–and Ican't really classify it as that–no, I wouldn'tsay that at all. I'd say they recognized that

38


the field people had other ideas about howpowerplants should be operated, andparticularly, once we got into the marketingof power and realized that all of your powergeneration doesn't have to fit a particularload. Some powerplants are base-loadedplants, which the mainstem Corps ofEngineers dams are pretty much what youcall base-loaded. They have a given amountof peaking power in them.

Steam Generating Plants Tend to Be Base-Loadedand Hydropower Plants Are Peak-Loaded

But if it's necessary–well, and say a steamplant is most efficient when it's running ahundred percent along, and they don't like toswing it up and down, as wherein capacity. So when you get this kind of generation–andhydro, by the way, is very adept at makingthe peaks. And so if there was a controversyin that regard, it was whether the Bureau'splants should be base-load plants or fiftypercent load factor plants or whatever. Ithink we got agreement all the way aroundthat the field was in a position to . . . Well,and I think the people in Denver recognizedit immediately, getting the powerplantgeneration possibilities and under a loadcurve, were very desirable from thestandpoint of generating revenues. Peakingplants capacity is usually your higher costcommodity, and that's what you'd like to dowhen you can.

Petershagen: If you're in the business of selling, you like

39


the higher cost idea, huh?

Barta: Well, you like the higher revenue,(Petershagen: Right.) not necessarily thehigher cost, but the higher revenue. Theelectrical industry, as a matter of fact, in thefield I found, we worked with the engineersfrom Pacific Power and Light, which hadtheir headquarters–I think still do–inPortland. But they had a small area inWyoming at the time, and we coordinatedour activities with them. And I think earlyon, one of the points that they pointed out–atleast it stuck in my mind–was thedesirability of having as much capacity in ahydro plant as you can, from the standpointof getting peaking in it, because they had thepowerplants, they had the steam plants, andwe needed to coordinate the operation of thetwo. And of course that's being done, hasbeen done now, over the years. We don'trun the power system–the Bureau ofReclamation–we don't run it. It's an area ofoperation, and Bonneville is an excellentexample of that.

Navigation and Flood Control Dams Are BetterAble to Carry Base Load than Is an Irrigation Dam

Petershagen: I understand. Is it safe to make ageneralization that by their nature as largelynavigation and flood control dams, that theCorps' dams would tend to be able to carrymore of a base load then, than say anirrigation kind of project dam? Or am Imisreading what I thought you said?

40


Barta: No, I think what you understood is what Ihad in mind anyway, that were iteconomical to put in more capacity–theycould operate more in that peakingoperation. But there are restrictions insite–you can only put in so much. And thatmeant that you were utilizing them moreinto the base load area. Now I didn't saythat they were strictly base-loaded–they doswing. (Petershagen: I understand.) As amatter of fact, they built several dams forthe simple reason of being able to swing out. I think Big Bend below Owyhee, andGavins Point below Fort Randall arereregulating reservoirs similar to Nimbusout here in the Folsom Project. This istypical. They could run lots of power out of,say, Fort Randall, swing it up and down, andthen regulate the flow in the river belowGavins Point by the storage that you havecapacity, storage, in Gavins Point.

Petershagen: I see. And we're, I think really into yourarea of expertise here, when we start talkingabout these issues, because as I understoodwhat you told me in our initial meeting, onearea that you worked in to a great degreewas to establish the criteria by which youwould develop generating facility size orcapacity versus reservoir size and capacity. Did I say that correctly?

Barta: Well, (Chuckles) it's a little morecomplicated than that, I guess. Usually, theCorps-built projects, their dams, to the–if Iremember this correctly–the mainstem

41


reservoirs were built only to the maximumof the site. The Bureau didn't necessarily dothat. Well, like I think in one case atleast . . . Of course you realize that this goesback many, many years. In 1904 I think,when they built Shoshone, they built whatthey built! (Chuckles) In recent yearsthey've raised the dams somewhat in there. Now the Corps started off by maximizingthe development of the site for storage. They were interested in a lot of storagecapacity, and they got a lot of storagecapacity. The hydro facilities then wereincidental because . . . As a matter of fact,the hydro facilities were incidental as far asthe Bureau was concerned, too, early on. That's why if there was some controversybetween the field and Denver, it would beon the basis of the thinking at the time of, "Well, you just don't need a lot of power inthere." (Chuckles) That's when it got towhere it was costing money and the PowerDivision would say, "Well, to generaterevenues that could pay off irrigationprojects." Thinking changed all over, Ithink. It's my feeling at least.

Petershagen: I see. Now you obviously were personallyinvolved in the design of many powerplants,many generating facilities.

Barta: Well, I mean . . . (Laughs) If you're talkingabout structural design, I didn't haveanything to do with it.

Petershagen: No, but the electrical design.

42


Barta: The capacity of the units, yeah. You mightsay, yes.

Petershagen: What was your position when you leftBillings? What did you call your job then?

Was Assistant Regional Supervisor of PowerBefore Leaving Billings for Sacramento

Barta: I was assistant regional supervisor of power. Region VI had a lot more activity going onthan most Regions. I think it was probablyone of a few that they decided that thepower manager there needed some help. And so I was promoted to the position ofbeing the assistant regional supervisor ofpower there.

Petershagen: Over the course of the time you were inBillings, given a Region that is that large,I'm sure you spent a lot of time on the road. Is that a fair assessment?

In His Early Years at Reclamation He Did NotTravel Much

Barta: Well, in my early years up there, that's notso. (Chuckles) I spent a lot of my time inthe office. (Petershagen: I see.) The bigbosses would be the people who went hereand there. Later on, I did some traveling,yes, particularly to . . . . The fellow whowas the regional supervisor of power, Iassisted him in these day-to-day operationsof the Division. He kept his finger on thattoo, but as well as in coordinating activities

43


with the Corps. But even so, we bothtraveled. The Bureau had an aircraftstationed there that was utilized by all theDivisions. I expect the Power Division hadmore than its share.

Being in the Reserves and Working atReclamation

Petershagen: You spent two weeks a year doing yourReserve active duty. Weekends were drillmeetings, however they were organized. Were they in Billings?

Barta: Yeah.

Petershagen: So two weeks a year committed to theReserves, plus your travel with the Bureau. Was your wife able to travel with you onany of this?

Barta: No.

Petershagen: So she kept the home fires burning, huh?

Barta: Well, when I was on active duty during mysummer camps, sometimes I was able totake another week, and she would bring thefamily out to wherever we happened to be,and this would be at Yakima Firing Centerin one case, I think, and Fort Lewis inanother case. But in the case when thewhole Division, the Reserve Division wewere assigned to, goes out here at Hunter-Liggett Military Reservation, we came outby train and she did not come.

44


(Petershagen: I see.) But often she wouldcome along–not during those two weeks, butafter usually.

Petershagen: Did you have any other periods of activeduty? I focused on World War II. Howabout, did you get called up at all duringKorea? (Barta: No.) So you were able toreally focus on your job at the Bureau(Barta: Pretty much so.) without anyextended call-ups.

Barta: Yes. I did have other tours of duty otherthan the regular summer camps, but theywere short duration. They were schoolshere or there or somewhere else. I spenttime in Fort Stillwell. I was at the USNATB, naval amphib. [amphibious] trainingbase in San Diego for three weeks downthere–not associated with the Unit itself, butother training.

Petershagen: Your military experience, I'm sure youwould say, probably made you a bettersupervisor and manager in the Bureau?

Barta: Oh, I think so. I think it also got me into aposition where I was better acquainted,particularly, with Montana politicians, ifyou please. A lot of the–well, not a lot, butthere were a number of Reserve officerswho were also politicians and . . . Anderson,Leroy Anderson was a congressman fromMontana–real good friend. I met several ofthe other people: Another, a Congressman,not Mike Mansfield, but his associate

45


Senator up there at the time: the two "M's"and he was the other "M." (Withexasperation) Ach! [Senator Lee Metcalf].

Petershagen: That's, okay, I can look it up and we'll add itas a footnote.

Barta: Okay. But anyway, yes, I became–andseveral of the people in the Unit, by the way,at least two, a couple of them, are aware,had political aspirations. Well, one of themwas a lawyer and ran for, well, I think everyoffice in Montana! (Laughter) I don't thinkhe was successful on any of them, but hedid. But yeah, through that association,yeah, I ran into a lot of–well, not a lot, butmore so than I think the average personwould.

Petershagen: How about within the Bureau itself, whenyou first moved into a supervisory position,did you have some formal training leadingup to that in personnel management orsupervision?

Management Training Programs Began Just Priorto His Move to Sacramento

Barta: Ah, no. I'd say essentially no. In moving toBillings, there'd probably be little problemin that regard–everybody grew up togetherthere and knew pretty well everybody else'scapabilities and accepted that. They had juststarted that sort of a program just prior tomy coming to Sacramento, but it was notbecause I was coming here–it was prior, I

46


think, before this job even opened up. Wehad one session, I believe, that I attended. After I came to Sacramento, though, thisbecame a big thing here in Sacramento.

Petershagen: I think in my conversations with JakeOssofsky, he mentioned that about that timethe Bureau as a whole changed itsmanagement style, so I think that's probablywhat you were referring to. (Barta: Yes,that's right.) And I think from Jake I got theimpression not only was he a big believerand practitioner in the new way of doingthings, but it seemed that out of the Bureau,probably here in Sacramento it was moreopenly and warmly received than in some ofthe other regions.

Barta: Probably so. Probably there was a need forit here, more so than others.

Petershagen: I see. Now, you mentioned skiing. You'vebeen a life-long skier?

Started Skiing about 1960

Barta: Oh no! No, I didn't start snow skiing untilmy youngsters were grown and going touniversity. So I didn't start skiing untilabout, oh, it had to be about 1960.

Petershagen: So you were in your forties when you firststarted skiing?

Barta: Oh yeah. I had been working out threetimes a week up there, during this

47


time–winter and summer–particularly allwinter long, and was in fair physicalcondition–excellent, let's put it that way,even if I do say so. But I had not skied upuntil that time, no. Friends of mine wereskiers. My son wanted to start skiing if hehad to go to school in Montana. He wantedto go to school somewhere else. So he got aski outfit, and I had to find out what thisskiing was all about. So his younger sisterand I visited the ski hill. That was onSunday, and on Monday we were buyingour equipment because Mom wasn't going tolet us do this, (Petershagen laughs) but wedid. And I would recognize at that time thatthere were people in Billings that we werewell acquainted with who were on the SkiPatrol and wouldn't let me get on the slopewithout having a lesson. I had to have alesson to learn how to fall and how torecover. I got quite interested in skiing. It'sa great sport.

Joined the Ski Patrol

Petershagen: Now at some point in time you became amember of the Ski Patrol yourself. (Barta: Yes, I did.) Was that while you were inBillings? (Barta: Yes.) And then youcontinued that here in California. (Barta: That's correct.)

Well, let's get back into Bureauissues and off the slopes for a few minutes! (Barta: All right.) Your experience in theBureau, I think, was largely in conjunction

48


with construction, correct? At least wehaven't talked about a whole lot of O&M[operation and maintenance] stuff.

Mostly Did Planning for Construction Work

Barta: No, but it was more in the planning, ratherthan in the actual construction. I did verylittle in the way of supervising construction.

Petershagen: Okay. What I meant was, associated withnew projects–I'll say it that way.

Barta: Yes, that's right.

Petershagen: And my impression is that that has to be awhole lot more exciting and a whole lotmore fulfilling than O&M kind of work. Doyou feel that way about it?

Barta: Yes, I would say so. I didn't interest myselftoo much in the operations and maintenanceof the–particularly in the maintenance of thefacilities. In the operation of them, sure.

“We were quite interested in making sure thatsomebody saw that they were maintained wellenough that they did operate, and that they did

operate in the manner in which we felt was mostefficient. . . .”

We were quite interested in making sure thatsomebody saw that they were maintainedwell enough that they did operate, and thatthey did operate in the manner in which wefelt was most efficient. I'm talking now

49


power facilities.

Petershagen: It just seems to me that if I were in your lineof work, there would be a whole lot morefulfillment in saying, "Well, I had a hand indesigning or building that thing," rather than"I spent thirty years making sure that itstayed on line."

Barta: I have that feeling. I have that pride. Youbet!

Petershagen: I not only hear it in your voice. I can see itin your face, too!

Managed to Convince Reclamation to Increase theDesigned Capacity of the Yellowtail PowerplantThus Making it a Better Peaking Power Facility

Barta: I particularly refer to the YellowtailPowerplant. The dam was underconstruction. They had, of course,contracted for the penstocks in the dam. Ithad to be part of the dam construction. When it came to my attention one way oranother–or the Bureau's attention, our topgun put it in my attention–and I was able toconvince my supervisor and the regionaldirector that we really ought to be puttingmore capacity in that powerplant. Recognizing, of course, that the penstockshad an influence on how much capacity ithad, the hydraulic engineers looked at thecavitation that would occur at high flows,based on empirical formulas. And Irecognized that this was, of course, a

50


limitation. But when you increase thecapacity of the unit from whatever it was towhat it became and was being recognized, Ithink it was, 36,000 kilowatts of capacity,and I felt that they could easily put in50,000, which doesn't sound like a lot, but itwas enough. And it would increase thepeaking capability of the plant a lot. Theperiod of time of erosion on the penstockswould be quite limited, because you couldonly put huge amounts of velocities throughthose penstocks for the peak hours of theday only, and then that would be shut downor it would be closed down to more normal,even less than normal.

It took some convincing. The chiefengineer particularly, in Denver at the time,Barney Bellport, was not willing to acceptthat. But we were able to convince thedesigners that this would be acceptable. And so they did.

Petershagen: Let me stop you right there, and we'll turnthe tape over.


Petershagen: Now Bob, you were speaking of theYellowtail installation with a good deal ofpride as we ended the other side of the tape. And I wonder, do you single that one out asthe high point of your career, or the thingyou look back on with the most pride?

51


Barta: Oh, no. No, I feel that the input that I hadinsofar as the powerplant capacities in themainstem reservoirs were equally satisfying. Well, let's see, I guess I had a hand atGarrison, probably a greater hand in BigBend. But no, there were other (Chuckles)"points of pride," yeah.

Petershagen: If I ask you to name the single-most point ofpride, what might it be? Or am I trying topin you down too much with that?

Barta: You're pushing pretty hard.

Petershagen: (Laughs) Okay.

Barta: I can't point to any particular . . . I guess itwould be my contribution to the . . . puttingcapacity in powerplants, wherever theyhappen to be.

Petershagen: I see. Now, your Billings career, I think, if Iunderstand the course of events, wasterminated somewhat early by, well, JakeOssofsky's heart attack, I guess, by the needfor somebody to take his place here inSacramento.

Barta: No, no, that's not so.

Petershagen: That's not so? (Barta: No.) Well, can youcorrect me then? Put me straight.

Applied for the Job in Sacramento Because it WasUnlikely He Could Find a Promotion in Billings

52


Barta: Oh sure. The person who had the regionalsupervisor of power's job here, his name wasStokes [J. Stokes], and I knew him fromback when he was Chief of R&D [Researchand Development] in Denver, but he, in theinterim, had moved out here as the chief ofthe Power Division here. But he hadbrought along with him several people fromDenver, and notably . . . (Laughs) All I cansay is his front name, Bill [WilliamKeating]. Well, it'll come. And anyway, Ithink he was getting to the point where hewanted to retire and wanted to get back tothe Denver area in order to retire. So hetook the position of being head of thecontrol center, I believe in, they call it theFlatiron Area. Anyway, it was back in theDenver Area, and that left a vacancy here inthe regional supervisor's job. (Petershagen: I see.) At the time I could see that therewere no possibilities, or very limitedpossibilities for promotion in Billings. Mysupervisor there, the fellah who had the jobof regional supervisor, wasn't that old. Icould see him holding onto this job foryears. So when this vacancy came here, Iapplied for it.

Petershagen: I see. My sense of that situation is that thereis almost a generation of people whosecareers roughly patterned yours: WorldWar II veterans that then went to the Bureauof Reclamation, and it looks like, as youprogressed to higher positions within theBureau, you were all about the same age andall competing for those same positions, so a

53


lot of times it would look like maybe yougot as far as you could go because you knewthat your boss was going to be there for tenor twenty years, and you did have to startlooking at other places. Is that a fairassessment?

Barta: I guess so. Even so, though, my boss inBillings was older than I. He had not beeninvolved in the war itself. What he didduring the war, I'm not sure. I think heworked in Denver for the Bureau underHarvey McPhail, who had the whole PowerDivision of the Bureau was in Denver. Idon't believe they were in Washington at thetime. But like I said, I guess, it wasn't thatwe were all growing old together–of coursewe were all growing old. (Petershagenchuckles)

Supervisor in Billings Retired a Few Months afterHe Left to Go to Sacramento

He was not that old that he wouldn't have, inmy estimation at the time, that he wouldn'thave stayed on. But as a practical matter(Laughs) after I took the job here, forwhatever reason–I took the job here I thinkin August–and in December he retired.

Petershagen: So you perhaps could have stayed inBillings in hindsight.

Barta: (Laughs) Perhaps, perhaps.

Petershagen: But your move to Sacramento was more

54


voluntary than I had led myself to believe. (Barta: Oh yeah.) There was, I'm sure,some sadness associated with leavingBillings, though?

Barta: Oh, absolutely.

Petershagen: Did you feel like you had adequatelyprepared yourself, or been adequatelyprepared for the move to Sacramento?

Barta: No. (Laughs) I don't think, in retrospect, Iwas prepared to make that.

Petershagen: And how so? Small town to a big city? Ordifferences in the way the regions were run?

The Regions Were Run Differently

Barta: Yeah, especially that, exactly. Difference inthe way that they were operated.

Petershagen: Were there any particular differences youcan point to? I don't necessarily mean to say"pick which region you liked better," or likethat.

Barta: When you come to a new region like this, Ididn't know the people who would be underme, and I think they, not knowing me, felt acertain amount of suspicion. "What kind ofa guy is this guy? I've heard all kinds ofthings about him." And I'm sure there wererumors all over the place.

Shortly after Arriving in Sacramento Was Put on

55


Temporary Assignment to Go to Washington,D.C., for about Six Weeks

I was here for a very short period of time,maybe a week or two weeks, at the most,and I was asked to go back to Washington. And I think I was back there for six weeks. So the office operated out here without mybeing here.

“Well, anyway, I was not interested in going toWashington at that time. . . .”

Well, anyway, I was not interested in goingto Washington at that time.

Petershagen: Was this trip back to Washington a detail, atemporary assignment?

Barta: It was a temporary assignment back there.

Petershagen: Did it look like you were going to bepermanently assigned in Washington?

Barta: Bill Keating was the person that I referredto, was the chief of Marketing and Saleshere. He left to go back to Washington asthe chief of the Power Division back there. And that's about the same time that Stokesdecided he was going back to Denver. Hewas going to retire. Now, he was ten yearsolder or more. But when Keating got backto Washington–and this is some period oftime involved in this–he became theassistant commissioner.

56


He Was Placed on Temporary Assignment to Bethe Chief of the Power Division in D.C.

And so that left the Power Division withoutsomebody in that chair, and they wantedsomebody back there. And so I was detailedback there as a "trial run," if you want. Ithink I . . . . Well, like I said, it was not forme.

Petershagen: It didn't take you long to figure that out, iswhat I hear you saying.

Barta: That's correct. It was so totally differentfrom (Chuckles), well, really from Billingsto Washington. The stop in Sacramento wasvery temporary at that time.

Petershagen: But then you came back to Sacramento andactually established yourself. (Barta: Yes.) And I'm sure there were differences betweenBillings and Sacramento, just in the waythings were run.

It Took a While to Become Comfortable in theSacramento Office

Barta: Yes. And working in Billings, I'd workedthere, of course, for twenty-three years,working up through the ranks, as it were,and I became well acquainted with the chiefsof all the different divisions, and for thatmatter, most of the people who worked inBillings. And when you come to a newoffice, as I did when I came to Sacramento, Idid not have that background with these

57


people here, who were, of course, wellestablished in their own fields. It took alittle bit of time to become comfortable withthat.

Petershagen: I think I hear you saying that you had someof the same feelings about this job that I'veexperienced, and I know in talking withother people, they've experienced, as cominginto a new job from a different area andfeeling like you're an outsider and you'retrying to find exactly what your niche is inthis particular organization.

Barta: Very well put.

Petershagen: Now, besides coming here as a Bureau ofReclamation employee, to this new position,you also came here as an experienced, bythen, member of the Ski Patrol. Were youstill in the active Reserve when you came toSacramento?

Barta: No, I had retired by that time.

Petershagen: And I guess I should ask what year wasthat?

Moved to Sacramento in 1969

Barta: Oh, I came here in 1969.

Petershagen: In '69, okay.

Barta: August '69.

58


Petershagen: You established yourself with the Ski Patrolsomeplace locally, as I understand it.

Barta: Oh yeah.

Petershagen: Almost immediately upon your arrival?

Became Active in the Sugar Bowl Ski Patrol

Barta: Very shortly, yeah. I was associated withthe Sugar Bowl Ski Patrol. There werepeople who worked for USGS [UnitedStates Geological Survey]–one personworked for USGS, and another one workedfor BLM [Bureau of Land Management], allin the same building. And yes, I lookedthem up. I looked up somebody and wasreferred to them. And they happened to be,by the way, associated with the same SkiPatrol up at Sugar Bowl.

Petershagen: I see, but nobody from the Bureau ofReclamation was on the Ski Patrol withyou?

Barta: No.

Petershagen: How about in Billings? Were there anumber of Reclamation people on the SkiPatrol with you?

Barta: Well, I can only think of one.

Petershagen: So that was really an independent activity,away from the office altogether.

59


Barta: Oh yeah, pretty much so. Yeah, they all gota kick out of it when I came in one day oncrutches. I had ruptured a (Laughs) musclein the calf of my leg. But then you canexpect that sort of a thing. The only otherperson that I can think of that was associatedwith the Ski Patrol in the Bureau, was inBillings, and this would be quite early on. She was on the Ski Patrol, she was thesecretary for one of the divisions, I don'trecall which. But I was always chiding herabout getting hurt. (Laughter) And what astupid thing this was to be, skiing. (Laughs)

Petershagen: So you had to pay the price when youwalked in on crutches.

Barta: Yeah, that's when I paid that. She didn'tknow it, but she got a leg up on that one,yeah.

Petershagen: (Laughs) Any other community kind ofactivities that you may have participated [in]here in Sacramento when you arrived?

Belonged to a Masonic Lodge in Sacramento andDid Church Work

Barta: Well, I belonged to one of the local lodgeshere, the Masonic organizations. But that'sabout it. Oh, besides our church work. Wedo attend church occasionally. (Chuckles.)

Petershagen: I see.

Drove for Meals on Wheels for Several Years after

60


Retiring

Barta: Oh, back up! (Petershagen: Sure, goahead.) After I retired–particularly after Iretired–I was kind of chided for not doingsomething, so I got interested in doing somevolunteer work, and I drove and delivered"Meals on Wheels" for this organization forabout three or four years. When thatparticular program quit, I guess the higher-ups decided it wasn't economical for them tocontinue–I always say it's the only job I evergot fired from, a volunteer job. (Petershagen laughs)

Did Volunteer Work at McClellan Air Force Base

But anyway, then I met some peopleassociated with the local air base here out inMcClellan, and I've been working out therenow for about the last three or four years,doing volunteer work out there.

Petershagen: As what?

Barta: Oh, I worked in the Pass and ID, issuingpasses and identifications for about maybeabout a year. And I also worked out at thecommissary, checking IDs. As people comein, they must have proper identification orthey cannot use that facility. Then morerecently I've been with the Retired ActivitiesOffice. I'll answer any questions that comein during the period of time that I'm there. Iwas there on Friday mornings, now I'mstarting Friday afternoons when I get back.

61


Also trying to help them out on a data baseon a computer that I'm really not veryfamiliar with (Chuckles) at the moment. They want to get the many people who arevolunteering their services out there, orhave, and get them down in a form that theycan utilize and show that these people haveput in so many hours or so much time. Overthe years, some of them have been workingthere for, I guess, as long as twenty years.

Petershagen: Wow! This is getting way ahead of where Iintended to be right now, but let's justcontinue with one or two more questionsalong this line. You have pretty much thesame privileges as a retired reserve officeras if you had retired from active duty: commissary and medical and that sort ofthing, correct?

Barta: Well, when you complete your good yearsof service and you retire, you are retired asif you had been on active duty. (Petershagen: Right.) You have all thesame privileges.

Petershagen: Do you and your wife take advantage ofthose things? Do you shop at thecommissary and the PX at McClellan, forexample?

Barta: Very seldom. Very seldom. I don't thinkmy wife's been in the commissary. When Iwas working out there in the commissary,after I got off, I'd pick up a few groceries,but it didn't amount to much. No, we don't

62


make use of those facilities very much at all. (Petershagen: I see.) I'll back up. I guess Ido, as far as my medications are concerned. I can get my medications out there.

Petershagen: Now, let's get back to the Bureau ofReclamation! (Barta: Again!) (Laughter) What was the position title you came into inSacramento?

Became Regional Supervisor of Power inSacramento

Barta: Regional supervisor of power.

Petershagen: And can you give us a two- or three-sentence description of your job?

Operations and Maintenance in the PowerDivision

Barta: (Chuckles) Well, I guess you'd say I wassupervising the activities of the PowerDivision, which included the ResourceDevelopment, the Marketing and Sales, andthe Operation and Maintenance, to theextent that we did things differently orseparate from the Operations Office that washere. We furnished, as far as operationswere concerned–operation andmaintenance–we furnished technicalassistance in that regard. Our people wereexperts in mechanics, mechanical engineers,electronic and electrical engineers to assistin setting up the programs for maintenanceof the facilities and the operation of those

63


facilities.

Marketing and Sale in the Power Division

Under Marketing and Sales, whichwas really the principal job here when Icame here–and to my knowledge hascontinued to be the biggest reasons forhaving an office here–was the marketingand sale of power, coordinating with otheragencies in buying of power at wholesaleand retailing it, if you want to call it that. We actually did not retail any power. All ofthe power is wholesale. Then the resourcedevelopment here, at that time, was prettymuch, all the resources were pretty muchdeveloped, there weren't any programsgoing on in any extent.

“. . . biggest problem that we had then was in thematching our rates with our repayment. . . .”

Their biggest problem that we had then wasin the matching our rates with ourrepayment. Of course this was happeningall over the Bureau, and I had extensiveexperience in this while I was in the Denverarea and Billings. Over the years I made upmany, many rate repayment studies there.

About the Time He Moved to SacramentoRepayment Studies Were Being Computerized

About the time I came down here, we weretransferring the mechanics of actuallyperforming repayment studies to a

64


computer.

The Way Repayment Rates Were CalculatedBefore Computers

When you do it by hand, you had totake one set of rates and run it through andhope that things worked out. If it didn'twork out, then you had to start with anotherset of rates and work through until you gotan answer that said, "with these rates, theproject will pay off." We developed aprogram there, and I think it was used downhere, too, or became . . . . Yeah, we did useit here–not the same program, but a similarprogram.

“Each region has small differences with theirfacilities in the way they allocate costs to different

functions. You can't take one program and sayit's going to work for the Bureau all over. . . .”

Each region has small differences with theirfacilities in the way they allocate costs todifferent functions. You can't take oneprogram and say it's going to work for theBureau all over. That's my opinion at themoment anyway. And so we did developone here that worked for Region [II] VI.

And there we were working with theidea that we knew for a fact that ouralternate sources of power to assist thisproject were becoming quite extensive. Wewere buying power from a steam plant inCentralia in Oregon [Washington - Ed.].

65


That seemed to be breaking theBureau's appropriations for purchasedpower. We're utilizing almost all theBureau's capability for purchasing powerback here in Sacramento. And so that wasdeveloping into the need for raising rates. The question was how far do you raise them,and what do you put the cost on? Do youput it on kilowatts or kilowatt hours,different load factors and the like? So theserate and repayment studies became quiteimportant. We could run through it a givenset of rates and punch the button and outwould come a response. Either it worked orit didn't work. And if it worked and it wastoo much, then we could go back and wecould adjust the rates down to get theoptimum rate to make the repayment.

About the Time He Retired Reclamation WasInvolved in Controversy Due to Raising the Rates

in the Central Valley Project

And one of the biggest factors weended up here with about the time I retiredwas the raising of the rates in the CentralValley Project. It became quitecontroversial. Nobody, of course, none ofour customers, wanted those rates raised. And they were quite critical of every step ofthe way, every assumption that was made inthese studies. As we became moreconscious of their demands and they becamemore conscious of our requirements, thingsworked out, are working out. Kind ofinteresting.

66


“. . . Ken Holum . . . couldn't understand why I wascoming to California, because everything had

been settled in California. . . .”

When I first came down here, the [Assistant]Secretary of [the] Interior[-Water and PowerDevelopment] at the time, Ken Holum, wasfrom South Dakota, and because of myactivities in the Missouri Basin I becamewell acquainted with him. When I came outhere, he just couldn't understand why I wascoming to California, because everythinghad been settled in California. (Petershagenchuckles)

Another Major Issue Was Reclamation’s Contractwith PG&E

Well, another big problem that wehad was in the contract we had with thePG&E [Pacific Gas and Electric] Company. We would bank power with them, and theywould return it to us. And there was a givenamount of toss going both ways. And howmuch capability we had depended upon theagreement we had on what the hydraulicconditions were going to be, or had been. And so the administration of Contract 2948-A became a major undertaking here, andbecame also a very big part of our rate andrepayments and our rates that we werecharging for power. So the kind of work Iwas associated with doing here was quitedifferent than (Chuckles) what needed to bedone in the Missouri Basin. I think in theinterim, I mean, since that time, they've hadtheir problems up there, too.

67


Petershagen: How long had you been here when youbegan on this, Bob?

Barta: Almost immediately.

Petershagen: When you speak of the reactions of thecustomers: SMUD [Sacramento MunicipalUtility District], I don't know, City ofRedding, whoever it might have been, didthey know you were the new guy fromBillings? I guess what I'm asking is, didsomebody suggest, "Oh, we got this newguy from Billings and he's here to raise therates"?

Barta: No, I didn't have that feeling. (Petershagen: Okay.) Many, not many, but some of thepeople that you referred to, like Redding, Ithink there was a turnover and these weredifferent people up there and they didn'thave those feelings. If they had them tobegin with, they didn't have them anylonger–those same thoughts, anyway.

Petershagen: And how long were you in this position?

Quit Working in December of 1974

Barta: Let's see, I came down in 1969 in August,and I guess I actually quit working inDecember of '74, as I recall.

Petershagen: And that was the result of a heart attack,correct?

Barta: Yeah, I had a heart attack in December of

68


'73.

Petershagen: And that was while you were out on the skislopes?

Barta: That's right.

Petershagen: As a ski patrolman.


Petershagen: And you were one of those that wassupposed to be telling everybody, "Well,you should know better!" kind of a guy,right? (Laughter)

Barta: Well, I suppose. No, I had been under adoctor's care for a long time for high bloodpressure, ever since I came down here. When I ended up with a heart attack, hisfirst remark to me was, "I would never haveexpected you to have a heart attack." Hewas well acquainted with my physiology orwhatever. But that's where he was, sameway. By the way, I still have him. (Laughter)

Petershagen: Well, you still look like you're in goodshape. You must be following his advice. You keep care of yourself.

Barta: Well, I try. Last summer my son was downand helped us during a rather difficult periodwe had here. His comment before he leftwas, "You need to get into a health club ofsome kind, a physical conditioning

69


program," and so we did. And that's wherewe are.

Petershagen: So, Bob, I think that brings us then to theend of your career with the Bureau ofReclamation, and it sounds like, from allyour description of your activities thatyou've carried out since then that the end ofthat career was certainly not the end of youractivities within the community.

Did Some Consulting Work after Retiring

Barta: One thing I didn't mention to you: I did dosome consulting work with a local firm herefor about four or five years prior to being avolunteer.

Petershagen: I see. And was that with the state or thefederal government?

Barta: No, neither one. It was a privateorganization.

Petershagen: No, I mean who did they consult for?

Barta: Oh, we . . . .


Petershagen: Bob, I heard you chuckle a little bit as I said"Tape 3." I'm remembering you as theperson that greeted me with "Well, I don'thave much to say." (Both chuckle) After acareer as long and as involved with the

70


Bureau as yours, it turns out there really is alot to say.

As the tape ran out, you weredescribing your employment with theconsulting firm, so maybe you could justgive us a couple of minutes and describewhat that was about.

Barta: I'd be pleased to do that. It came about bythe Bureau. After I retired the Bureau wasstill holding meetings with their customersconcerning these rate and repayment studiesand the rates that they were proposing. Iwas quite interested in this and particularlyhow it was working out as far as PG&E wasconcerned and Contract 2948-A. One of theparticipants or attendees at one of thesemeetings happened to be a person who hadworked for the state and was in our officefrom time to time getting data from us–thatis, when I was still working on powermatters, and I became acquainted with him–not well, but I became acquainted with him,I knew who he was. Well, anyway, whenwe met at one of these meetings, he advisedme that he was now in consulting work. Hehad the office here for James Hansen andAssociates, a consulting firm in Vermont,that opened this office here, and suggestedthat maybe I'd like to come to work forthem, and that Jim would be coming out andI could interview with him. So what theheck, why not? So I went out and talked tohim, and they did hire me. They were a firmthat was involved in the development of low

71


head hydroelectric projects, powerplants,specifically like where there was a canaldrop. Throughout this Region there areseveral opportunities for that, where they'deither pump up to an area and into a canal,and in this one instance when a customerdown here, that's what they were doing, andwe were trying to convince him that hecould also operate that . . . Well, because thewater supply now had been changed becauseof the state's canal going down the valley, itwas delivered at a higher elevation. Soinstead of having to pump up into this area,he could get his water delivered into thatarea directly. But we could also utilize thepower, the water that was delivered throughthat same canal to the lower area, by justoperating this pumping plant, you might sayin a reverse direction. And besides that, wewere trying to convince him this would helphis power factor requirements as far asPG&E was concerned.

Worked with the Truckee-Donner Public UtilityDistrict Which Buys Power from the Powerplant at

Boca Dam

We also worked with the customerup in the Truckee-Donner PUD [PublicUtility District] in helping them get anallotment of power from the Bureau. Theywere entitled to such, but were never able toget the arrangements done to be able to dothat, to actually transport the power upthere. And so being the firm did do that sortof thing, that is, they did get the application

72


in, the customer was allotted the power,and then we had to work like fire to see howand then where we could get it delivered. Well, the upshot was, they never got any ofit delivered, but the Bureau did develop asmall powerplant up in that area. And Ithink Truckee-Donner now buys the outputof that powerplant. And we wereinstrumental in working with the Bureau,that is, this consulting firm was, in workingwith the Bureau and getting a powerplantinstalled in that little dam [Boca Dam - Ed.]that's up there.

I guess I worked for this groupfor . . . . I was going to say about three orfour or five years, I think. When the firmwent out of business is the reason I quit. The same fellow that was here went to workfor another fellow here on his own, and Iworked with him on one or two jobs that hehad, too. That's just prior to when I wasdoing volunteer work. After that, I had timeand I–you can only play so much golf, Iguess. (Laughter)

Petershagen: I see! Well, that certainly describes a longand varied and, I'm sure, really fulfillingcareer. I think from what I heard you say,fulfilling from the standpoint of yourassociation with the Army and fulfillingfrom the standpoint of your association withthe Bureau of Reclamation, and also with allof your other activities.

And I guess we're at the point now

73


where it's time to say thank you forparticipating in the Oral History Project, andI need you to acknowledge once again thatyou understand that this does become a giftto the United States government that willeventually find its way into the federalarchives [National Archives - Ed.].

Barta: I understand that. I think it's a very smallcontribution, however! (Laughter)

Petershagen: Okay, thank you very much.

END OF SIDE 1, TAPE 3. JUNE 21, 1994.END OF INTERVIEWS.

74


(Intentionally blank)

oral history interviews robert [bob] l. bartarobert(bob)l.pdf · oral history interviews robert...

Documents