national life stories city lives julius neave interviewed by david phillips c409/34

NATIONAL LIFE STORIES CITY LIVES Julius Neave Interviewed by David Phillips C409/34

This interview and transcript is accessible via http://sounds.bl.uk.

© The British Library Board. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication

or broadcast from this document.

Oral History The British Library

96 Euston Road London

NW1 2DB United Kingdom

+44 (0)20 7412 7404

[email protected]

Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Should you find

any errors please inform the Oral History curators

http://sounds.bl.uk/

mailto:[email protected]

BRITISH LIBRARY NATIONAL SOUND ARCHIVE

NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION

INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET

____________________________________________________________

Ref. No.: C409/034 Playback Nos: F406-416 inclusive

____________________________________________________________

Collection Title: City Lives

____________________________________________________________

Interviewee's surname: Neave Title: Mr

Interviewee's forenames: Julius Arthur Sheffield

Date of Birth: l7th July l9l9 Sex: Male

____________________________________________________________

Date(s) of recording: l8/l2/89; 5/l/90; 24/l/90

Location of interview: Interviewee's home

Name of interviewer: David Phillips

Type of recorder: Marantz

Total no. of tapes: ll Speed:

Type of tape: C60 Noise Reduction: dbx

Mono or stereo: Stereo Original or copy: Original

____________________________________________________________

Additional material: Five photographs; two booklets on M & G

____________________________________________________________

Copyright/clearance: Full clearance given

________________________________________________________

James Neave C409/34 Tape 1 Side A (Part 1) Page 1

Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

Can you tell me when and where you were born?

I was born in July l9l9, very near here. I mean you can almost see it.

Here being?

In this village. The actual parish is Fryerning. And Fryerning and Ingatestone are two sort of twin parishes.

One north of the Al2 and the other one south of the Al2. Really that's how it works out now. But in the - at the

time I was born both my grandparents lived in this parish. My father and his father lived in this house. And my

mother and her parents lived in a house about - I suppose a mile and a half away across the fields. And - that's

really -

Was your grandfather a farmer or a landowner?

No. My grandfather Sheffield Neave was left a very large fortune when he was still at Eton. And he was a

remarkable man inasmuch as he never did a hands turn of work until he was 40. I say a hands turn of work.

What happened was he became very keen on Africa and big game shooting and he went out there a lot and he

reckoned that the only thing that was going to prevent Africa becoming a sort of agricultural paradise was the

conquering of the tse-tse fly or the sleeping sickness problem in cattle. And remarkably at the age of 40 he

qualified as a doctor with this idea. And he - did most of his work in the Belgian Congo and in Tanganika. In

fact he was one of the founders of a thing that became quite well known, called Tanganika Concessions. But it

never really got anywhere. But by this time he was qualified as a doctor.

Do you remember him?

Oh, very well. I mean there are pictures of him in the house. He was a great sort of outdoor man. He was

master of the Essex Stag Hounds for a long time, which he kept here in the - the farm buildings. But he gave

that up in l900 because he said that the place was getting too built over. So -

Can I ask you what was the fortune from?

Well, his - grandfather was governor of the Bank of England. And - or was it is father, I can't - But it was in

the family. The family had big trading interests in - in - the Carribbean. All over the world. And although it

was never - I don't think it was a very large firm, it was a very prosperous one - in the City.

What sort of influences did he have on you?


He was a very - eccentric man in many ways. He was a very rough, tough chap also. I mean to - to describe

him a little bit. He never gave up playing polo even at the age of 83 when he died. But he'd had to give up

hunting. Because he couldn't off his horse and do a pee and get on again. But playing polo was alright because

it only lasted for 7 minutes. And so he thought he wasn't getting enough exercise so he took up playing golf.

And - my brother and I used to go and play golf with him. This was at the age of 80. And he'd play l8 holes in

the morning, starting at about 8 o'clock, before anybody else could get on the tee. And I mean his golf was quite

awful. I mean it was quite beyond anything getting him a handicap or anything like that. And then we'd get

back to the car about mid-day and have a sandwich of some kind and a cup of coffee. And then we'd play

another l8 holes. We'd then come back and finish off the sandwiches. And so that he hadn't played the first or

the second 9 very well. Which was the understatement of all time. And then play another 9 holes. Well you

see at that sort of age he was remarkably tough. I think he had a big influence on one. I mean we used to have

to carry his cartridges out shooting and he went out shooting, he never stopped. He was the most tremendously

energetic man.

How old were you then?

I suppose I was - this was mostly on holiday from prep school. I suppose I was l0, l2, l4. My father was a

soldier. And - this old grandfather kept him very short of money. Because he'd - said he hadn't - When he

was at Sandhurst, my father, he was going into the Rifle Brigade. And you had to have a Kings nomination to

do that in those days.

What does that mean?

Well you had to be nominated. I'm not quite sure what the full procedure was, but it wasn't easy to get into the

Rifle Brigade. And it required a certain amount of influence and this sort of - And my father got this while he

was at Eton. And then went to Sandhurst. My grandfather was out - typically Victorian this - was out in

Africa. But had given him a horse. And this horse through no fault of my father's fell down dead under him in a

steeplechase at Sandhurst. And from then on he was regarded as having no idea of the value of money. And so

he was kept very short of money. And in fact this old grandfather never sent my brother and I to Eton and we

were the only Neaves that I know of who never went to Eton. We were sent to Sherborne. Not that I have any

regrets now. I enjoyed my time at Sherborne. And I think it was probably a very much better influence on ones

career perhaps than Eton would have been.

Your father was unable to pay for the fees for you to go?

He was a soldier and until my grandfather died he was pretty - pretty hard up. And I think that's very good for

one to know what the meaning of poverty was. Because I didn't have any money at all. And - anyrate I think

that was the sort of influence that he - He did a lot with us in funny ways. He used to take us out. But - take

us out around here and - I was quite fond him. A bit frightened of him.


Why?

Well he was a pretty tough customer.

Did he influence your father to go into the army do you think?

I think probably not. I think my father - had always wanted to go into the army. But to finish the story about -

he didn't go into the Rifle Brigade. He went into the County Regiment. And his whole army career was in the

Essex Regiment. And in fact he went straight from Sandhurst to the Boer War. With several friends of his at

Eton. Notably old Sir Cahn Rasch who was a great Essex character. And - and they went out there straight

from Sandhurst. Then he had a lot of time in India. And - I think - I don't think the work ethic was ever a very

high priority in the Englishman of those days.

Are we talking about your grandfather?

And my father too. And my father too. And I mean a soldier's life then was one of providing one with the

opportunities of doing almost any sport you wanted to do at a price you could afford to do it with people you

enjoyed doing it with. And I mean it didn't provide him with an opportunity of making money or having to do a

lot of work. And I think really the attitude of that generation has always seemed to me that there was no virtue

in work. Which is very different today. When work is regarded as being an essential in the sort of ethic that one

is brought up to. And I don't think it was in my father and grandfather's day.

Is that just an attitudal do you think, or was it more important to work because suddenly one doesn't have

enough money anymore to sustain the lifestyle?

I think youre absolutely right. I mean that's what forced - at least in my position, to have to work very hard.

And not that I didn't enjoy it, I did enjoy it, but it was quite different to my - parents attitude and I think my

grandparent's attitude certainly. And -

Do you think your father was resentful. Did you ever sense there was resentment that he was kept short of

money?

No. Well I think he did resent his being dubbed as someone who had no idea of the value of money. And I

think he did resent being kept short by my grandfather. I think he did yes. Inaccurate to pretend he didn't.

Did that affect your life as a child?

Well it did inthat we were brought up in - in - where there was no money at home to do exciting things. But we

had a lot of very rich relations, which was - My mother's family. My mother's mother was a Guinness. And -


her father who lived in this beautiful house called St Leonards, which is very close to here, he had had a career

in India as one of the great merchant trading - merchant houses. And he founded the merchant house of Hoare

Miller And his name was Robert Miller. And that was very successful and he came back and it was of course

established in London as much as it was in Calcutta. And he worked in the City. And was well established

there. And - in my case there was a sort of gap in the generations because none of - he had one son and he was

a soldier too. And on my father's side there were two sons. One - the elder one, my father's elder brother, was

really in the Civil Service. He was an interesting man in his way too. So when I went into the City in l937/8

there was nobody of my immediately previous generation who would have been very helpful to me I think. I

always felt that that was in a way a pity.

But the name Neave was known?

It had got fairly remote. It had been very well known of course when two - at least two generations of Neaves

were governors of the Bank of England. But that was way back in l780 or something like that. And there - you

see this grandfather who lived here again was a younger son of a younger son. And the family place here was -

Dagnam Park Not to be confused with Dagenham, which was quite different. But Dagnam Park which is near

Rumford near Gidea Park, was a huge pile built in about - the early l700's, without as much architectural merit

as one would have expected it to have at that time, sadly. But - and - the chap who had been governor of the

Bank of England was made a baronet and so that's where the sort of family headquarters, as it were, was. The

baronetcy still goes on. But my cousin Arundel Neaves is the present one. And he has a son Paul who will

succeed in due course. But Dagnam Park itself was bombed in the last war. And I think it was quite a good

excuse to - pull it down. It was bought by the then London County Council. And doesn't exist anymore.

So your father lived here?

My father didn't live here. He was brought up here. Most of his - of his life. And when my grandfather died

who did buy this house in about l870 and came to live here, when he died it went to his - elder son, which was

my uncle, also another Sheffield Neave. Sheffield Airey Neave. And then he lived here for about - I should

think - 25 years. And his son was Airey Neave the politician who was assassinated by the IRA. And he was

member of parliament for Abingdon constituency in Oxford. And he didn't want to - live here in Essex and so

he sold it to me. And was very generous and splendid about selling the place to me, because I was, you know,

not really - able to - pay a great deal. And he sold it to me for the probate value. Which was - I was always

extremely grateful to him for that.

I was asking you about your grandfather who sounds rather an impressive and alarming figure. I can imagine

him striding around in boots and a big African hat on?

You're about right.

What about grandmother. What was his wife like?


She was an absolutely sweet and charming - lady when I knew her, who spent most of her time - sitting in the

drawing room there - in the winter, wearing an enormous amount of clothes including a hat. And she - her -

maiden name was Talbot-Airey. And - her - her - family were an interesting one. But I really think if I start

going into that it gets too complicated, they were diplomats and - and -

From this area again?

No, I don't think so. They came from - a much wider -

So you were brought over here from time to time as the grandchild?

Yes, well of course when my father retired from the army he lived in a small house in Fryerning. On the very

edge of the property here. And so we were in close proximity and we came here a lot.

When was that?

That would have been in the early 30's. About - I suppose my father retired about l930 or something like that.

Can you give me an impression of what a visit here would be like?

Although he - the farm, he ran the farm. And - but the place was always extremely tumbledown. And he'd

never spend any money on the house at all. Which was why when my uncle inherited it he really pulled it down

and rebuilt it. And it was very antiquated. I mean the - I can remember when electricity was put in for the first

time. And -

Before that it was candles?

Before that it was all candles and - and lamps. And there was a parlour maid and one of her many assistants

would have the full time job with looking after the lighting arrangements. And I have the earliest recollections

as being a small boy in a bed on the top floor here and hearing the gardener pumping the water up to the tanks,

which he did every morning for about - it seemed to be well over an hour every morning, to get the water from

the well up to the tanks. There was no main water you see.

Was that particularly unusual?

I don't think so. I don't think it was, not for houses of this generation. But he was pretty slow in putting on

anything modern like - electric light or telephone. I think there was a telephone here when I - first remember it.

That made it an exciting place to visit I suppose?


Not because of the telephone. But because it was so wild and as children - and my cousins used to be here a lot.

Airey was the eldest and he had two sisters who were about our age and then there were two younger ones who

were slightly younger than us. Including his brother who still lives in France, lives outside Paris. But no, we

used to enjoy coming here. I mean because it was a place where the garden was absolutely an endless source of

- excitement and adventure and - round the fields -

Gardeners looking after it?

In a pretty sort of ineffective way. And total contrast to the other grandparents who were much more with it.

And shortly after I was born at St Leonards in my mother's father's house. They moved down to Hampshire.

And they bought a place called Dummer Grange. Which has been in the news a little bit lately because the

present owners were people who were skiing with the Prince of Wales. And their name is Palmer-Tomkinson.

And in the same village of course Fergie the Duchess of York's parents live. And we used to know that village

and Dummer extremely well. Quite different people lived there then. People called Ryecroft lived where the

Fergusons live. And the church used to be one that we used to walk to over the hill, which is a good twenty

minutes walk. Always remember going there. But there there was a much more benign atmosphere. And the

place was always very well kept. And -

You preferred to go down there?

I think on the whole we did prefer to go down there, yes.

But that was quite a wealthy side to the family, wasn't it. Your mother's side?

Both grandparents were distinctly wealthy.

Did your mother's parents help out with the finances at all?

I think they did a good deal, unseen by us. And I think my brother's - perhaps mine too, I don't know - prep

school fees were paid by my mother's father. And she had this brother who was a soldier. And eventually

became a general. And he was an influence on our life because the regiment he was in both my brother and I

served in in the war, which was the l3th/l8th Hussars. But like all soldiers at that time they were abroad a

tremendous amount. We didn't see all that much -

That was World War Two?

No, we served in World War Two. But this was between the wars. We didn't see a tremendous amount of him.

But Dummer was a lovely place. It had a very good shoot. It had only about 600 acres I think. But it was -

Farming was a big and well managed operation, run by one of my mother's sisters. She was very successful in


raising Channel Island Guernsey cattle and she made quite a name for herself selling them all over the world.

Particularly I think to India and maharajahs and people like that. So Dummer had very many happy memories.

Mill Green's memories were slightly more - we enjoyed it here but you had to - it was pretty - rugged stuff in

more ways than one.

What about life at your own home. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

One brother and one sister.

Both older than you?

Both older than me. And I was very close to my brother and still am. He lives over near Colchester. And of

course my sister - We were all quite close, only three years between us really.

Is your sister still alive?

She is still alive. And - but life at home, I'll try to describe it. It was a small house and we were pretty - pretty

short of - everything. We nearly always had a pony of some kind. But it wasn't necessarily kept at home. It

was kept somewhere else. My father always played a lot of polo. He was a great polo player in many ways.

And he always said that his great - thing he would be remembered for was having produced the only infantry

regiment, which was the Essex Regiment, into the inter-regimental polo competition. No other infantry

regiment has ever been known to enter a polo team. And they did very well too. That was his great passion in

life and - So we were always riding these polo ponies to exercise them. That was -

How old would he have been when you were born. You were born in l9l9?

He was born in '83.

He was, what, 36 then?

Yes. I think he married when he was about 3l.

So he lived this somewhat curtailed life, financially curtailed perhaps?

Compared to the sort of previous generation who seemed to be living a very affluent life. But we always had -

my mother always had some sort of help. And -

And a car?

Always had a car, yes.


But not a driver?

Seldom. They sometimes had a chap who would sort of do more or less everything. But it was pretty -

restricted.

But your father knew that sooner or later he would come into a lot of money?

Yes.

Did he spend in anticipation of that do you think?

No, he didn't. I'm sure he didn't. I'm sure he didn't do that. But when - my grandfather died and my uncle

inherited here, they went down to live in South of Essex, at a place called Orset. Which was a very beautiful

large Georgian house. He didn't own it, he rented it from people who lived the other end of the village in Orset

Hall. He lived in Orset House. People called Whitmore? And Francis Whitmore? was in fact the Lord

Lieutenant of the County. And became great friends. And so then when he began to - but he was getting on -

when the money came his way. But - I think it affected him quite a lot. I mean he was never a great spender or

a great giver. And we had to wait until he died before we really -

About how old was he when he inherited. Or really when did your grandfather die?

Grandfather must have died in about '33 I would have said. So - suppose he was, what, nearly 60.

It's a long wait?

Mmm.

Was he bitter about it?

I don't -

You didn't sense it?

I think he - was not bitter about - not inheriting. But I think he - you know - he was fairly - But that

generation they were all very mean, I mean they weren't great givers. And they didn't spend very much.

Although old grandfather spent plenty on himself. I mean he was always getting a new car and he was always -

going up to Scotland to fish or shoot.

And would there be a desire to increase the land?


I don't think so. Not here. It's a very contained place. It's a hundred acres or one hundred and ten acres I think.

And surrounded either by woods or by roads. And it sits very sort of happily. It doesn't lend itself to - I mean

unless you went some way away.

End of Tape 1 Side A

James Neave C409/34 Tape 1 Side B (Part 2) Page 10

Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

Perhaps you might tell me a bit about your father. Did you see much of him?

Oh, a lot of him, yes. But as I said earlier he left - Eton, went to Sandhurst and left Sandhurst and went straight

into the South African war in the Essex Regiment as a second lieutenant. And I think the Boer War - left quite

a big impression on him. He loved South Africa. And he loved the country. And the Boers were of course -

pretty formidable opponents and they were out on the Veldt in these little - they had a name for them. They

were little sort of redoubts of small groups of British soldiers and trying to keep the Boers more or less in - in -

contained. And they would break through. And my father always told the story that in the middle of the night

they heard one of these parties of Boers getting through the line and they all opened fire on the party. And the

following morning they found dead on the Veldt the very, very well known pony that Smutts used to - always to

ride. My father always said what a dreadful and ghastly thing it would have been if he in fact had killed Smutts

and not his pony. Anyrate, very soon after South Africa he went out to India. And I think he was in India for

twelve consecutive years more or less. He loved India. And they had a system then that battalions would be

either serving in India or serving at home. And he used to swap battalions so that he could stay in India. He

married my mother in l9l2. I think the date was the 9th of October. And she went out there and she always said

- I think I've got this right - that she had a miscarriage. Her first child miscarried in Quata in about - before the

First War in l9 - perhaps it was l9l4. My sister was born in l9l6. And - that was in New Zealand. And the

reason for that was - after being in India my father came home. And then trained with the 29th Division. And

the first action in the First War that he saw was the landing in Gallipoli, with the Essex Regiment, where he was

wounded. And - sort of in brackets as it were - affecting me, landing in the same contest at the same time and

roughly speaking within a few miles of each other, was my wife's father Percy Acton-Adams?, from New

Zealand. Who had come across the world from the other direction. But no doubt one will be coming back to

that. But at any rate, whereas my wife's father went on. My father was wounded at Gallipoli. And when he'd

recovered from that he was sent out to New Zealand in a training role. And went out with my mother. And both

my sister and my brother were born out there.

May I ask you what happened to your father. What was his injury?

He - I think - I'm not quite sure. It was not - I think he was in the machine gun section. And I never knew

exactly what it was. But -

But a bullet wound rather than losing a leg or ..?

He didn't lose anything. Yes. And it was not - it was not physically too damaging. I never actually knew what

it was. It may have been sickness. It may have been some - dysentry or something of that sort. But I don't

know what it was. He had a pretty tough time I know that. I think he was - the 29th Division was the most


involved - much more I think in fact than the Anzacs? who had a rough time too. But I think the 29th Division

under a famously unsuccessful general called Ian Hamilton, were very badly knocked about.

Did he talk about it to you?

Very little. Very little. The only thing I ever remember him saying was 'that there was no smell as bad in the

world as the smell of a dead Turk'. I remember him saying that.

So he went to New Zealand?

He went to New Zealand.

Met and married?

No. No, no, no. He'd married here. My mother was out in India with him in Quatar? But when he came back

and was fit again he was sent out to New Zealand to train the New Zealand army. And he always said that the

New Zealand army was so well trained that he didn't have a job to do. So went off fishing and enjoying himself.

But he met his relations out there and one of the Dagnam-Neaves? had gone out to New Zealand and established

himself there. And my wife's mother was - her maiden name was Neave. And so he'd been to see his relations

there. She at that time was on her own because her husband Percy Acton-Adams? had come over with the New

Zealand army. And that's another story. And then when he - he had a family of six actually, before he went to

the war. And when he came back he had another five children from the same - my wife's mother - the same

wife. And my wife - she was the youngest daughter. And became my mother's goddaughter. And was named

after - Helen. But she could never say the word 'Helen', so she called herself 'Sen'. Well then my parents

returned to England from New Zealand after the war. With their two very young children. And almost

immediately my father was sent out to Ireland for the Sinn Fein - war. And he was there for two years and he

said it was - he did talk a little bit about that. They were very - much involved in very unpleasant - fighting and

skirmishing and generally speaking dealing with IRA as they were in l922. And I remember being left behind at

Dummer with my mother's parents. When my mother and my brother and sister and my father all went off to

Ireland. That is in fact my very earliest recollection of all. Seeing them drive away from the house and being

left behind with my nanny. And feeling very deprived. It's extraordinary, I mean I was 3 years old then and I

can remember it quite distinctly. Anyrate, to go on with my father's military career. Then he returned first of all

to - well instead of Aldershot there was another one called Borden? which was all really the same command.

And I remember we lived there. And that was very near Dummer and so we used to see a lot of our Dummer

grandparents at that time. Then he went to Colchester. And that was really - great fun and there was a lot of

relations there and a lot of - Polo was still very much the dominating fact of life. But there was some hunting

too. And horses were very much a part.

When did they come back. You saw them disappear. Sadly the whole family went off and left you?


Well I was born in l9 - this was l922. So I was 3. I think they were there for l8 months, a couple of years,

something like that.

Why didn't they take you?

Too young I suppose.

And you were l8 months without your parents?

They came back for leave and that sort of thing.

Does that strike you as an unusual arrangement?

I don't think so. No. I think in that generation it was quite an acceptable thing to be parted I think.

I mean it sounds like a sort of reverse being sent away to prep school. You stayed where you were and

everybody went away?

But my grandmother was a marvellous person. I was immensely fond of her. She was a super person. And she

was very much in loco parentis? And I was very happy there. There was no - That's my mother's mother.

Who was born Helen Guiness. And - so I was quite alright. And then my father retired. I suppose in about

l930, '3l, something like that. And came and lived here in a cottage - a big cottage - at the end of - just over the

fields here. But that was the sort of time when we started going off to prep school.

That was given to him by father?

No, he rented it. Because he didn't know what was going to happen here and he wanted to be near here and he

had a tremendous number of friends here and there was polo here. And - so that suited him very well. And my

mother had family here. Then to finish off his military career, when the Second World War broke out, by which

time we were down in Orset as I already explained, he became the Home Guard and he was really one of the

original Dad's Army lot. And he really commanded the Home Guard all the way from the outskirts of London

to the outskirts of Southend, all along the North Banks of the Thames. Which was a pretty big command. And

he - was very active in this. At Orset House at our home, there was a sort of headquarters of the Home Guard.

And he had a splendid chap as second in command whose name was Cyril Edwards. And a secretary and, you

know, quite a little establishment. And a quarter master and, you know, the thing was really very - And it was

very much in 'bomb alley' Orset, because it was only about two or three miles - perhaps five miles from Tilbury.

And all the bombers coming up into London could see the reflection of the Thames and so it was - there were

bombs everywhere. And a lot of windows were blown out. On one occasion we never had a direct hit, but we

had a lot of bombs all around. So that really ended his military career. But to turn to my mother. She was a

super person. Very, very - intellectually bright. She suffered as a child from bad eyesight. Which I'm glad to


say none of my generation nor our children have inherited. And it was a very rare - And didn't impair her sight

from - she could see perfectly well or reasonably well. But it was - a sort of - for someone who had never been

down a mine and for someone whose parents or - grandparents - or nobody in the family had ever been down a

mine was strange, because it was diagnosed as a sort of miner's nystagmus. Your eyes are always on the move.

But - she was a most amusing, highly intelligent - slightly wicked - but much loved by many, many friends.

And - somehow managed, although coming from a distinctly wealthy background and her husband coming

from a distinctly wealthy background, neither of them really ever had any money, but managed to have a

fantastic - lively and amusing life. And I remember when things got fairly bad she took on doing the entire

cooking for all the family. I don't think she'd ever done any cooking before and became an extremely good

cook. She was one of those people who was very capable of taking on anything. And anything she took on she

did extremely well.

Why did things become extremely bad?

Well - that's a good question. I don't really know why. I think - possibly because it was when her father died.

He must have, I think, done quite a lot of background support. That I was never aware of. But he died in about

l930. He died at a very bad moment. Now this is coming back to me. He died just before the crash of l93l. So

that all his assets were valued pre-crash. And the duties on them had to be paid with a post-crash situation. And

it left my grandmother pretty hardup too I remember. And Dummer became really the sort of only major asset

which they kept, they didn't sell. And of course all the value of that came back in later years when my uncle -

he didn't sell Dummer until after the Second War. By which time a great deal of the value had sort of recovered

itself. I think that was the time when things became - very difficult. I think they were pretty hard hit by the '3l -

Wall Street and - other - crash. One wasn't directly aware of it, because one was too young. But I think that's

probably why she had to take over doing things she hadn't done before.

Can you remember the year and a half with your grandmother?

No, I can't really. I can remember bits of it. I can remember the nanny who was a very splendid person. I was

fond of her. And I can remember the cooks. And I can remember the gardeners. And I can remember the farm

people. And I can remember the gamekeeper. And I can remember grooms. It was quite a big establishment.

And they were all super people who - And they always had time to be - to interest the young. I can remember

being shown the great electric generator which was a vast great thing with a huge wheel. And being told on

pain of death not to go too close to it and that sort of thing. And being given rides on the carthorses and being

shown all the beautiful Guernsey cattle and the pigs. And going down to the farm was an absolute treat. With

things all run in apple pie order.

Do you remember your mother returning?

Yes, I do. But it always took a bit of time then to re-establish. I think it does, however short a separation is, it

takes a bit of time. And - no, they were very happy times at Dummer. And we were much more looked after


than we were here. We were left very much to our own devices here. And loved it because it was a sort of

gorgeous jungle and there were always things to discover. And -

What about the return of your brother and sister. Was that significant?

Yes, I think so. I think one felt being reunited, but it was always fairly temporary until we got to Colchester. I

can remember moving to Colchester very distinctly. And there we had a big old rambling house with another

huge garden. Much too big to keep up properly. And by this time there were soldier servants. And there was a

sort of batman who lived in the house and acted as a sort of butler. And there were two grooms. How my father

managed to have two grooms in an infantry regiment I'll never know. But he did. And we used to have

tremendous fun with them.

How old would you be. When was that move?

I think I was - ll or l2 then. Perhaps - perhaps 9.

About l930, late 20's?

Late 20's I think, late 20's. I think it was earlier, I think it was late 20's. It could have been even '27. Yes, I

must have been younger than that because we went to prep school pretty early and - Yes, it must have been

earlier than that. It must have been. In fact I think - '26 I can remember in the general strike. Instead of having

an ordinary bath in the ordinary bath we all had to have a bath in the washing up basin. Because there was a

shortage of coal and everything. I remember the general strike really quite distinctly in l926. And having aunts

who were driving buses and that sort of thing. And - but this house at Colchester called Broom Hall doesn't

exist anymore. In fact we had to move out of it because some development by the council, they were going to

pull the whole thing down and build small houses all over it. And it was about at least l2 acres I would think.

And we moved into a government quarter in Colchester. Officer's quarter in a line of houses. Which was

nothing like as nice. But by that time it was only for holidays because we'd gone to prep school.

Before you went away to prep school what was home life like. What would be a sort of fairly typical day.

Would you be with your parents all day long?

Not - In the early days no. We were in the nursery. We only saw our parents about - half an hour a day really.

My mother used to come up to the nursery. And never see my father until - if he happened to be at home in the

evening when we were brought down by nurses at about 5 o'clock or after tea, that sort of thing. And then we'd

- be with them until we were sent to bed. But after that then we would have all our meals with them and we'd

see a lot of them and my father would take us out riding and - we'd go out with him on those sort of occasions.

But not too many cuddles in your early days?


Oh, my mother was very affectionate, yes, very much so. Oh yes, quite a lot of - very warm - Pa was always

a bit - you know - well you wouldn't expect him to be. But my mother was very warm and affectionate.

Certainly with my brother and I. I think she sometimes got a bit annoyed with my sister.

Do you think that was the sort of expected mode of family life in those days. That father would be a rather

remote figure and mother would see you ...?

I think that's probably it. I don't think it was a sort of deliberately put on pose or anything like that. I think it

was probably a pattern which got sort of followed. I suppose one follows patterns today with ones -

What about nanny, can you remember nanny. Can you remember her name?

Yes, I can, very well. And she lived in a cottage you can practically see from here now. And she was a

marvellous person. And very kind and very - but very firm. And great affection for her. Apparently I did have

some earlier nannies who were pretty tough and pretty ghastly people. But not so the sort of main one who I

remember.

What was her name?

Her name was Mary Tiggens. And the cottage she lives in - We used to go - When we were here we used to

be taken every morning to what was called 'Mums', which was her mother. And we were given cocoa in the

most lovely cups with robins on them. I can remember it to this day.

So she was a local girl?

Local girl. We knew all the locals here on the common, on the village here. There was - the post office was

there and we used to go up and post letters. Kate Camp who ran the post office. And the gardener was called

Chilmaid here. And his wife was called Fry. I can never think why. She used to work on the top floor here

doing dressmaking for my grandmother. And Annie was another - one there. And one of the things my

grandmother absolutely insisted upon - with the tough old grandfather, was that she always had her own ladies

maid. And whatever efforts he made to - she never gave it up.

So you would see the local children. Would you play with the local children?

Not very much, no, because we were always - a pretty good bunch of cousins and there were quite a collection.

And - but I always remember an example of my old grandfather's rather - parsimonious - actually 'mean' is the

real word for it. There's a great story told. Because he used to come down the bottom of the drive and the gate

used to be shut. And he had a great klaxon horn and all the little boys would come rushing to open the gate and

he'd throw them a penny. And - he - would throw it as far as he possibly could to make sure that they really

had to work for it. I don't whether it's true but the story is told that he once threw half a crown instead of a


penny. And very rapidly noticed this. He knew the little boy who had found it. And when he came back in the

evening he called him up and the little boy said "yes, here's the half crown. Very, very sorry". When he got

back in the evening the little boy was sort of waiting for him. And he knew he'd made a mistake. And handed

him the half crown with a beaming smile. But he never got a penny back in exchange. That's the story. I

actually don't believe it. But the fact that the story was told indicates the - But I always remember too in the

farmhouse, which is exactly as it was then, belonged to a marvellous - or didn't belong to, I mean the farm

manager or the bailiff or whatever you call him, was called Sitch. And he was a marvellous chap. And Sitch is

a very - there are a lot of single syllable surnames in this part of the word, which go back really a long, long

way. And Sitch and Rolfs and Flax. And just to name two or three of them. But Mrs Sitch always wore from

neck to ankle, black - black clothes. And we always used to think she wasn't Mrs Sitch she was Mrs Witch. She

used to wear a great black hat as well. We were a little bit frightened of her. But - old Sitch was a typical old

farmer. Binding round his trousers and a smock and a marvellous old man.

Were you children a complete nuisance to the farm workers?

I think they really on the whole were frightfully good to us. And they loved - perhaps it was a sort of - broke up

the monotony of - And - no, I think - they were part of a sort of great - an enormous sort of entourage of

people. He never really looked after the garden very much. And that was in the sharpest contrast to his eldest

son, my uncle Sheffield Neave. They were both Sheffield. He really developed this garden in a marvellous

way. He was a very remarkable man inasmuch as he became president of the International Entomological

Society. And was sort of an international expert on entomology and his great hobby was gardening.

End of Tape 1 Side B



He - when he was president of the International Institute of Entomology - either because of it or whilst he was

doing it, but at any rate his great achievement was to write a sort of definitive encyclopaedia of insects. And it

was known in the family as 'the buggers bible'. And - but he was a very distinguished man and funnily enough

I've met people who knew about his work in the City. You know, when I've come along and said the name

Neave. "Oh, anything to do with Sheffield Neave who wrote this great thing". And - but his other - two other

things that he - became secretary of the zoo. It was an honorary job. When Julian Huxley, who had been -

London Zoo - He departed - I forget - but it was - not necessarily under a cloud, but in a hurry. He went.

And - my uncle Sheff took over. And ran it. And including all through the war. And - horticulture. I mean

being his great sort of - sort of interest in life. And perhaps with the same - the same passion as polo as my

father. He then built up marvellous gardens at Whipsnade and at - and in Regents Park. Also here, one always

felt that the sort of surplus perhaps came down here. And he had three gardeners here who really established a

marvellous garden and it's been really one of my sort of regrets that I've now lived here for - 27 years and rather

presided over its decline, because I can't afford three gardeners and I don't think many people can these days.

And - but nonetheless - you know, it was a great and well known garden that used to be open to the public.

And - one of his gardeners was a remarkable man called Roasher? Who only died very recently. Who although

he only had one arm got through more work in the garden than anybody who you could imagine with three arms

would have done. He was a very remarkable, marvellous old man. And when we first came here he used to

come up and help us a lot by telling us what to do and how to keep things going.

So you have had two fairly powerful influences there you think. Your father with his military background and

your uncle with his entomological activities and the garden etcetera. Has it rubbed off in any way on you?

I don't think the uncle was really a very big influence. I think his son Airey was a much bigger influence on me

than - than his father was.

You played together?

We played a tremendous amount together. Airey was a man of immense imagination. He was always the leader

of the pack. And we had great games in this garden with his two sisters. And we paired off exactly you see.

We played families and Airey and my sister and my brother and his elder sister and me and his younger sister,

used to have homes all over the garden. And we used to give dinner parties and lunch parties. And we had a

great sort of currency that laurel leaves were pound notes and beech leaves were - you know. And we bought

and sold houses. We had tremendous fun like that. And we used to see a lot of each other. And as I say Airey

was very much the leader of the pack. And in later life - I mean I saw a tremendous amount of him and I was

his best man at his wedding. And I was his trustee and I was - godfather to his eldest child and -


So you've all kept really close together?

Very close together.

Your brother as well?

Yes. I think Airey and me more. We joined up in the army together. And that's another story that we'll

probably come to later. But -

Let's step back to the move to Colchester. And you were getting ready for your prep school?

That's right.

Your brother had been sent too?

He went to prep school at the age of 7. I went at the age of 8.

How did you feel about him going off?

I missed him a lot. I missed him a lot. And of course having him there at prep school was marvellous for me.

We were great - I thought the world of him and still do. And - we went to a new school. Which hadn't yet

made its name. Which was called Hordle House at New Milton in Hampshire. And I'm pretty sure my mother's

father paid for us. It was run by a splendid chap called - he was a parson called Wately-Smith. Who had been a

very gallant padre in the war and was highly decorated. And he ran this school which was quite small to start

with. Then eventually his son took it on and then I think it was sold. But it was rather - socially it was rather -

high in the establishment, in the sense that there were a lot of people there who had distinguished parents and -

and it was - he very cleverly built up this - in a lovely house and it looked straight across at the Needles. And -

was - great fun. I loved it there.

How do you think he was successful in doing that?

I don't know how he - I frankly don't know how he did it. But - I mean he wasn't unique in that. The other

person of course who did it in a different field in Stowe, was the great headmaster there whose name I'll think of

in a minute, who was very famous. He established a socially - you know - what was his name.

But there you are at Hordle House. What was life at Hordle House like?

Well it was - in fact very much softer and very much more - family and - well looked after - than I remember

my first impact at public school, which was Sherborne. That was a much tougher, rougher - proposition.


Were you upset at leaving home?

A little bit, yes. I was distinctly homesick. Much, much relieved by having my brother there. He I think felt it

very much. He was very homesick. And he really had to take the brunt of that, which I didn't.

It rubbed off perhaps on you?

Probably. I think it did inasmuch as - I remember going to children's parties with my brother. And if he was

unhappy I was unhappy. Although in point of fact actually I mean I might have been perfectly happy if he

hadn't - he hadn't been himself unhappy. And I remember that distinctly going to some parties.

So he is becoming an influence on you at a pretty early age?

Oh, very much so. I mean he was a very big influence. Much, much more than - later on when our ways

parted. And he went into the colonial service after the Second War. I mean after we came out of the army

together. Where we were in the army all the time. But - Hordle House was a very benign establishment. And

although we used to get beaten regularly it was always done in a sort of almost jokey way. I mean they had a

system of bad marks. You had five bad marks in a week you got beaten on Monday morning.

What were you beaten with?

With a cane. Over the - over the chair. And three strokes with the cane. And there would probably be a row of

about five boys who were waiting their turn. But it was all done in a very - sort of genial and benign way.

Can you remember any of the masters there?

Very well. I remember the one in the bottom form was a Miss Baynes. And she was a very sort of motherly,

nannyish sort of - kind of a person. There was a great big fat man called Mr Johnston I remember. Who had a

tremendous sense of humour. Well that helped a lot. There was a man called Hamilton who became - he was

very clever, very intellectual and he stimulated ones - interest in a lot of things. Reading and poetry and

classical things. And funnily enough when my parents used to come down, my mother sort of struck up quite a

friendship with him. He was a sick man. I was never quite sure what he was sick from, but he was never very

healthy. But he was delightful. They nearly all were. And they used to have some young ones whose names I

don't remember. Who used to take the sort of games things. And old Wately-Smith was athletic and very -

interesting. We had our own sort of games that we used to devise, where you had two teams and you would

cover a great sort of area of the garden and the playing fields. You'd have to - have flags in two camps and the

great thing was to go and capture the flags of the other side, which you did by throwing tennis balls at each other

and if you were hit with a tennis ball you had to go for so long out of the game. Those sort of things.

You didn't sit there and wait for the tennis ball to land on you?


No, no, you didn't, you dodged behind a tree and tried to catch him you see. But we played all the conventional

games too. I mean one learnt soccer, hockey and rugby and cricket there. And - you know, one had very early

stimulation in that direction.

Did you make friends there that you have kept through?

One or two. But really not so very many. I always regret that, that ones school friends got sort of interupted by

so many things that - The war was the biggest - problem. But there are still two or three that I see. Funnily

enough one is chancellor of Essex University who quite by chance - a fellow called Patrick Nairn. And - he

came up to me about a couple of years ago. And he said "I can see you don't know - you don't recognise me. I

was about a year younger than you at Hordle House". And now he's a great sort of academic.

Why does he remember you. Were you unpleasant to him in some way?

Possibly. No, I think he actually didn't say that. I mean he said that - you know, he remembered - Because a

year in those days is quite a big difference. And then old Wately-Smith's son became secretary of Aldeburgh

golf club And he was a super chap. And we'd been at Sherborne together too. And I see him. I'm very fond of

him.

What was your sister doing meanwhile?

Well she I think missed out a bit because she practically didn't go to school. She had governesses. And then in

the village here she shared a governess with actually the sister of Lord Peter, who lives at Ingatestone Hall - did

live, he died last year. And they used to share a governess. Then eventually she went - to a boarding school for

a very short time. But it was never really so important for girls in those days. I mean a great many of them

were educated at home. I think it was a mistake, but - And I think if there'd been more money about I think

she would have gone to a - But she - was - always around. And had her own - being the one sort of girl I

think she got a bit bullied perhaps by her brothers. But we were very fond of her. And will come back to her

later because she now lives up in Suffolk and poor thing is relatively a cripple, because she lost a leg. She got

ill, which was very rare - to get her disease. But she's recovered from it and is very well.

Back at Hordle House just before you take us on to your public school. Are there any particular

unpleasantnesses there you can remember or happy moments?

I look back on it with - considerable sort of - as it being a happy era. Interspersed with the - unwelcome

anticipation of being beaten on Monday morning on frequent occasions. But - always in a very benign - way

that I look back on Hordle House.

You were beaten because you were late with your work?


It could have been almost anything. I think probably just sheer naughtiness in - my case. And they used to say

"right, you get a bad mark for that". And it wasn't too difficult to accummulate five bad marks in a week.

What about your brother, was he beaten as well?

He got beaten a bit. I think perhaps probably slightly less than I did. I wouldn't be too sure about that.

What about life at home during this time?

Well that was very much being involved in ones parent's activities rather than - at this age. At Colchester by

this time my mother's sister had - This was a big house and she had just married a chap who had come out of

the army and become master of the local pack of foxhounds. And while they were looking for a house - they

lived in a sort of wing of Broom Hall. And they added a lot of spice to our life, because he was always out

hunting or shooting or sailing or doing one of those things. And would always involve us boys into doing the

same things. They became quite - at that time - an influence on our lives. And so the holidays were great fun.

And -

You were seeing more of your parents?

Yes. A thing I didn't mention. That I had one - before I went to prep school - for I should think at least a year -

I was sent to the local girl's high school. Now that was a pretty strange - thing. And I remember in Colchester.

And I always felt there that one was a bit of a peculiarity there. Because not only by being about the only boy in

the place but my parents saw fit to send me to school on my pony in the High Street of Colchester, escorted on

the leading rein by a soldier groom. And I think I was sort of regarded as being a bit set apart by this strange

routine every morning. I think I was - picked up to go home until eventually I was allowed to walk home

myself.

Why did they send you there in the first place?

I think they thought I was ready for a bit of discipline and education.

Let's talk about your going off to your public school at Sherborne. You were the first Neave not to go to Eton?

That's right. For generations and still - And any of the present generation all seem to go there too without

exception. And I'm glad to say in some ways my - but all three of my grandsons are down to go to Eton too.

Because their fathers are old Etonians. But - no, I went to Sherborne in - I think it was probably '32 or '33, I

can't remember exactly. I can probably check up on that. But I was very fortunate in having an elder brother

there. It made an enormous difference because whereas my prep school Hordle House was a fairly - mild and


very - homely sort of place. Sherborne was tough. It was really tough. And - living conditions were - pretty

primitive.

Can you describe them to me?

Well there was no central heating in the dormitories. No running water in the dormitories. There was central

heating in the - what they called the day room. Which was where - it was the sort of boys common room.

Junior boys all used that and it wasn't until you got pretty senior that you got a study. And then I suppose about

- in the house of about 60 people I suppose. Perhaps a little more. The top 20, perhaps 25, would have a study.

And the rest of us used a day room, which when I first went there was extremely primitive, but they very

quickly built on a modern wing, which included some extremely badly heated bathrooms and that sort of thing.

Was it a weekly bath?

No, it was much tougher than that. It was every morning throughout the year you had to have a cold bath.

There was this routine of going downstairs. It was quite a big bathroom with - you could make as much mess

as you liked because it all sort of - filtered away. And there was a - two baths with permanently running cold

water so that it swished over the top. And you had to get in and get under and get out again. Everybody had to

do that. And - then you went upstairs and got dressed and came down to breakfast. But it was -

Did you survive?

Well, I think -

Were you ill or anything?

No, I don't think - one didn't. And the house was - Sherborne is in the most delightful town and the school

was very old, it was l5 - something like that. The central part which was all round the Abbey, which is one of

the most beautiful churches I suppose in the country. All the school encircled it more or less. And although it

had its own chapel and we didn't actually use the Abbey, except on very special occasions. The Abbey was very

much part of the whole - complex. And -

Did you have much contact with the people of the town?

Not with the children at all, no. And very little with the townspeople except - the rule was you were allowed to

go into any shop that wasn't a food shop. That was always rather a strange rule. And I think that rule was by

and large was kept to. And I suppose it was a five minute walk, a sharpish five minute walk over to the -

through the streets to the school from where my house was, which was called Harper House. And the

complications of this was the most remarkable house master. Who was a sadistic - rich, very rich Scotch

batchelor. Called MacFarlane-Greave? He'd been very generous in endowing the school with various things.


Including - an organ for the chapel which must have cost a lot of money. And - but he - delighted of course in

beating small boys. And I don't think there was anyone who escaped his - his attentions.

You were beaten were you?

Oh Lord yes.

Regularly?

Regularly.

What sort of things would generate a beating?

I honestly can't remember the actual crimes that were - But something that was pretty trivial, but nonetheless

against the rules. I mean being late more than once or twice or failing to do something rather than - Crimes of

omission rather than of condition. But - any rate he came to a rather - we didn't think it particularly sad, but no

doubt sticky end. He drowned himself in the - in the - went down to the South coast somewhere. And why and

what I've no idea. Nobody ever did know.

Was there a sort of homosexual undertone to all this?

I was quite unaware of it if there was. But I suppose nowadays people would immediately look for that. But I

could find no - evidence of it.

Did this generate a sort of fear in you. Was everyone slightly afraid?

Oh yes, they were. Oh yes, they were. He inflicted this on you when you - when you changed for games. So it

was after lunch. Games played an enormous part in school life there. And then he used to deal with you at that

stage. Presumably so that you hadn't had a chance to line your trousers with something.

Is that what you would try and do?

I never tried, but I think possibly people did. But - so it was a tough place. And I don't think anybody suffered

from that. I think it was tough in every respect because people who were unpopular were pretty severely dealt

with.

By the other boys?

By the other boys.


A lot of bullying?

There was a good deal of bullying, yes. And the prefects of course were all powerful. And as a small boy there

you were very - made very much to feel their influence. And fagging was a routine. And you'd have to make

tea for your prefects and - you can imagine a small boy of that age - making tea wasn't his most accomplished

skill.

You were a fag?

Oh yes, very much so.

How did you get on?

Well not very well. I mean and you had to cook him an egg occasionally. And if you didn't get that right well

that was - All sorts of little trivial things like that. And - making baked beans for him and that sort of thing,

which you could buy in the tuck shop. And you'd be sent off to go get that and get it ready for him. But those

are all memories that I remember. I don't think it did one the slightest harm. And -

Was there also, if I may ask you, a sort of homosexual theme to all this?

Absolutely not at all. I mean if ever it was mentioned it was mentioned in terms of utter horror. And absolutely

it was the final, ultimate ghastliness - anything remotely that. And frankly I never had the first idea what it was

all about. And I don't think any - most people did. But I remember there was a case of one chap who was a

good bit older than me - being accused of some sort of - homosexual tendencies and being pillaried and

absolutely destroyed poor chap. I should think they were probably right, but I don't think any of us really knew

what it meant. And it had been described as - as - the horrors and all the rest of it and it was - always a mystery

to me what was involved. But I never got - remotely -




And your brother was there. He was older than you?

He was two years older than me.

Did you see much of him?

Not a great deal, because he was just that 2 years older. But it definitely smoothed ones way, I think there's no

doubt about that.

He was sort of protector if necessary?

In a - in a - it couldn't be done at all obviously of course. But one always felt that he was someone one could

always go to and say "well what do you do about this". A tremendous help. We were very great friends. Very.

What were the boys like there. Were they the same sort of chaps as you were?

Yes, they were. In those days Sherborne was drawn from the widest possible geographical - There were

people from all over the country and abroad. There were Indian princes and there were - people from - a lot of

military and naval and - services people who were serving abroad. Who sent their boys there. I think today it

tends to be much more - drawn from much more in the geographical area of the West Country where it's

situated. But in those days it was very widely spread. I remember the school train from London which we

always used to catch. It was packed jam solid with boys. There were three or four trains that you could catch.

And they were always very full. And one always came with ones trunk. And in those days there was that great

thing which - you sent your luggage ahead of you and it was - I mean the railways were totally different then.

And these trunks used to be delivered into the house.

So you didn't have to travel with a trunk?

You didn't travel with a trunk, it came - It was some special - I shall think of it. Not cash on delivery, but it

was something, you know, as - in constant use as that.

But you made lasting friendships there?

Yes, one did. Most of whom I have to say now I only meet very occasionally and rarely. But - of course the

war came very quickly after one left. And that seems to have caused a very big - change in everyones


relationships. It was such an upheaval that for them to go back and pick up friendships, unless they had for

some reason continued, which in my case they didn't.

Did you come across many of your old schoolfriends in your working life?

A few. But really very few. And it was usually ones who had not actually been - exact contemporaries or in

the same house. All that was all rather important. But - the standard at Sherborne was extremely high I feel.

And the quality of the teaching was extremely good. I was very keen on the sort of sporting side, particularly

the rugby. In fact I was fortunate in being in the first fifteen for three years, which was, you know,

comparatively rare, only comparatively rare. And I was captain in my last year. That gave one - the end of ones

time - very sort of pretty important position. Which - I mean even in the summer term when you - cricket was

being played, the captain of the rugby fifteen was one of the sort of - very much one of the top positions in the

school.

What benefits would that bring you?

Well I think only you sort of wore different ribbon on your hat. And - I don't know, there may have been some

other privileges which I can't really remember now.

Was there a sort of governing clique of boys?

Not in the sense of having what they call their 'pop'. There was nothing equivalent of that. But there was a -

quite a lot of contact informally between the sort of - There were school prefects and house prefects. And - if

you got to the sort of - you more or less automatically became a school prefect. The school prefect had

privileges which - I forget what they were now, but they had certain privileges.

What of the work. Did you work hard?

The work was pretty hard. And pretty good. I think they did it well. After MacFarlane Greave disappeared

from the scene we had a splendid chap who took over as housemaster, called Ralph Barlow. And he was a sort

of archetype of best type of schoolmaster you'd have. Actually he hadn't been at Sherborne himself, he'd been at

Clifton. But he married the daughter of a Sherborne housemaster. One of the Parry-Joneses. And he'd been a

rugby blue at Cambridge and he coached the fifteen. And he was one of those people who I'm sure everyone

has come across them, where you didn't always agree with his attitudes and points of view until you suddenly

came across him in his element. And on the rugby field he was in his element and I would take anything that he

said on the rugby field without question. Whereas I certainly wouldn't take anything he said without question

elsewhere. And in a funny way it was rather like - I remember with my father, who - was absolutely in his

element when a horse was anywhere near him. And I would never question any of his - attitudes and decisions

about a horse.


Did you question your father's attitudes elsewhere then?

Oh frequently. Never with much success. But Ralph Barlow was a splendid man. And the whole attitude of the

house became much more benevolent in those terms. I enjoyed Sherborne. I was lucky in getting, you know, a

fairly senior position and having the privileges that were going.

If you had had sons would you have sent them to Sherborne?

Certainly it would have been - I think probably my first choice. I would have been torn between keeping the

family tradition and - of which my knowledge is only secondhand. Or sending them to Sherborne. Because the

reputation of Sherborne went up and up and up. And I think at the time that I would have been sending sons to

school its reputation was probably the highest it's ever been. I think I couldn't say for certain which I would

have done.

There is a Sherborne girls school?

There is a Sherborne girls school. We went down, my wife and I. There was a marvellous woman who was

headmistress, called Diana Reader-Harris. Who was an enormously handsome, good looking woman. And we

went down to see her about sending our girls there. And which it was also an extremely good school. But we

didn't because of the problems of travel and visiting and - and we opted in their case to send them to

Felixstowe, which is much more accessible and you didn't have to go through London to get there.

What about home life during your period at Sherborne. Did you go back in the holidays?

Well, there my recollections were of this house you can almost see from here. Where my father had by this time

retired from the army. And my mother lived. And my sister who didn't go to boarding school at this time. She

went to boarding school for a short time later on. But at this time she shared a governess with - in the village,

the Dieter? family. And - it was always one where money was a problem. I mean - not many of our neighbours

round here - we were very conscious of the fact they were very much better off than we were. And this was I

think particularly galling to my parents who knew that here in this house my grandfather was - had bags of

money and he just didn't - wouldn't make it available. But we used to go - out quite a lot with them. I mean life

revolved in a way rather similarly as it does now, round outdoor things. Golf and shooting and - particularly

polo and horses. My father used to go riding on his polo ponies. I wouldn't say every day, but just about every

day, it was a sort of routine.

And hunting?

Hunting - was - we had done quite a lot of hunting earlier on. And we did occasionally get a days hunting here.

But polo ponies were the - didn't make hunters. And unless we were lent a horse or asked to exercise a horse we


didn't go hunting. But we used to go to the meets quite a lot and meet people and that sort of thing. There was

quite a lot of social - many parties. I mean it was quite a social area round here.

But how did this shortage of money problem show itself?

Well hopefully it didn't.

But what was the impact on the family. What were you not doing or not having that you might have had?

Well - it's difficult really to - identify it. I mean the - the -

The parties that you threw weren't so lavish?

Were not so lavish. The house was too small to have - a great many sort of parties in the house itself. I think

other people went off up to Scotland. We did go once. We had a marvellous holiday. And uncle, who

happened to be my godfather too, Arthur Guinness, took a place up in Caithness. The arrangement was that my

father ran the sporting side of it and my mother ran the house. And there was a large house party of people,

most of whom were considerably older than we were. And then there was shooting and fishing. And it was

tremendous fun. But that was in about l937 I think. And was the most wonderful holiday. And I think other

families did those sort of things much more as a routine. I mean they'd go to the continent and they'd go - and

sometimes they'd go up to Scotland and they'd have grouse moors and salmon fishing and that sort of thing.

And occasionally we would be asked. But we knew that that wasn't in our grasp. That we weren't going to have

that from our resources.

Was that beginning to instil a feeling in you of a need to earn some money at some point?

I think it probably was. And I think it's very - important to have that urge and I've tried with my children to -

make them - appreciate the value of money in the right way. And I think it's one of the most difficult things to

learn. Because if you - if you're short of money - you learn the value one way. And then if you've got a lot of

money and you've been short the problem is then how to spent it sensibly. And so to get the right balance is

something which I think very few people ever achieve really. They either spend too much or they've got more

than they need. Any rate we had a very happy time. I'm not saying we didn't. I mean we enjoyed ourselves.

But it was fairly restrictive and you can imagine the cost of educating two boys at public school. A very big

drain on the - on the pension resources of a - not a very senior retired army officer.

When did he inherit. When he was 60 I believe?

I think he was a bit younger than that. I'm just trying to - My grandfather must have died in about l934 I would

think, something like that.


You were, what, l5?

I should think, yes. No, I was younger than that. I was younger than that. But - it's difficult to pinpoint it.

At about the time you went away though to Sherborne, your father had inherited?

No. It wasn't I don't think until - about the middle of our time there.

Did life suddenly change?

Not at all, no. No. It took a long time to - to change. But that was a fairly gradual process. But I mean you

could feel at home that there was no longer the - the great sort of weight of wondering how the bills were going

to be paid.

There was that anxiety before though?

I think so. I mean one wasn't conscious of it at the time. But looking back on it you can see that it was a

problem.

So when you took your final exams at Sherborne how did you get on. Was it a successful stay there?

Reasonably successful. I mean in those days you took what was called school certificate. And if you got five

credits you got what was called matriculation. And that was really, unless you were going on to university and

you were looking for a scholarship, matriculation would get you into Oxford or Cambridge or any other

university. Which really in those days was only two. And - the - I achieved that without too much problem.

But you didn't go on to university?

No. Well there were really two reasons. One was that there had been some idea that I might go to a continental

university. I'd always said I wanted to go into business, into the City. And I'd never been at all specific as to

what.

Why had you said that?

I don't know. I think, you know, you get ideas. I mean I didn't want to be a soldier at that time. I had no other

great pulls to go and farm or to go abroad particularly. And in those days I think the City was regarded as

somewhere where you worked pretty hard until you were about 40. By which time you'd amassed enough

money to go and spend the rest of your life enjoying it. Of course it didn't work out like that. The war must

have been largely responsible. But - I think that - I was - always had a sort of leaning towards the City.


What was the feeling of your parents about that?

Oh, they encouraged it. They encouraged it. You see my mother's father - I think I mentioned when we were

talking before - he'd had a very successful business in India. I mean apart from this trading company, Hall

Miller, he'd financed the building of several railways in India, particularly the Bengal Nagphor railway. And -

there would have been opportunities to go to Calcutta and go into his firm which was then run by a cousin called

Cecil Miller. But I didn't really have that great urge, in spite of my father's love of India. And it fascinates me

too and I can totally understand the fascination of India. But - my joining the M & G is quite interesting in a

way, because my grandmother had a favourite brother or - amongst her six brothers the one she was most

closest to was Dick. Richard Guinness. My maternal. And they had had a row. And they had really broken

off all relations between each other because Dick Guinness was a very brilliant man. He was the one who

founded the Mercantile and General. But he'd been married about four times and in those days that was not a

most fashionable way of going on. And at least one of his marriages had been surrounded by public scandal.

And my grandmother had said enough's enough and she really broke off relations. That saddened them both.

And it so happened that it was known in the family that I was thinking of going into the City just when a sort of

rapprochment was taking place. And so it was suggested that I went into the Mercantile and General. And of

course looking back on it to go - having been a fairly big nob at Sherborne, I mean one was looking for

something rather more than to be an insurance clerk in the City. But that's what I ended up by being. And

looking back on it it was absurd to think that one could possibly be anything else but - at the very bottom of the

pile.

And what sort of expectations did you have at Sherborne?

I think one of the things that a public school like that does, it does make you ambitious for - I mean it's born

into one that you've had a privileged education and that the expectations are that you put that to the best possible

use. And you're wasting your time and everybody elses time and money unless you do. And that was made

very clear.

Did the school help you find a career?

They definitely would if you wanted to. It didn't in my case. But - because of this rapprochment I was sent to

meet the great uncle Dick that founded the M & G. And he passed me on to - meet his general manager who

was a splendid chap called Frederick G. Pook. Who was a Yorkshireman and a splendid chap. And it was that

way that I got into the M & G as a sort of olive branch between my grandmother and Dick Guinness. And they

were very close to each other because Robert Miller - her husband and my grandfather had in fact introduced

Dick Guinness to the insurance industry. He was in - he had a fairly varied career. But he'd been partly in the

diplomatic in Germany, which is where he acquired two of his wives. His first two wives. And - and partly in

the family banking firm of Guinness Mahon. And - so - my grandfather having come back from India was on

various boards of insurance companies, such as the London and Lancashire, which in those days was a very big

company. It's now been absorbed into the Royal. And they had subsidiary companies for different branches of


business. And Robert Miller was on the board of the London and Lancashire and on the Marine Insurance

which was their marine subsidiary. And Dick Guinness was brought onto those boards, or at least I think onto

the marine, by my grandfather. And so he had had a sort of introduction into insurance through my grandfather.

Anyway -

How do you think Mr Pook took to the idea of having to take you on?

He couldn't really say no. Well - I think he was a very pragmatic chap and I think if he'd thought I was useless

and hopeless and wasn't going to try or anything like that, and he'd have said so. And I mean after all I didn't

know Dick Guinness as an uncle or anything else, because of the estrangement between my grandmother and

him.

Can you recall your first meeting with him?

Very well. Very well. I was pretty frightened of him actually, because he was a great tall - I haven't got a

photograph in this room of him, but - Impressive chap, a very sort of archetypal City figure. And - he had a

very - wimsical, airy fairy way of - of - of approaching things. But he was a very brilliant man. Anyrate - he

passed me very rapidly on to Pook. And I was offered a job as a junior clerk at a salary of £70 a year. I

remember that very well, I've still got the -

Was that a reasonable salary?

I was told that it was very lucky that I hadn't had to pay them for training me. Because I was of no use to them

and - But as you could imagine £70 a year wasn't a very princely sum of money.

And you would live at home?

I did that for a bit. Then my brother was studying at London University to get a veterinary degree. And we both

lived in a pretty - crummy club, which did us extremely well actually. Very near Kings Cross. I forget what it

was called - perhaps it was called the Cartright Club. But it was in Cartright Gardens, just south of Kings

Cross. And - you had a room - and breakfast. And you would - I mean they looked after you, they made your

bed and did everything else. It was 25 shillings a week. Well -

You were only earning £70 a year?

Yes. So that had to be subsidised. And I think at that time I got £5 a month from my father. So - that was

about the sum total of my income. Which if my arithmetic is right works out at around £l30 a year. I did - at

this time - or shortly afterwards, I joined the Territorial Army. And - that produced some sort of cash flow, or

put another way, you didn't get paid very much but you got your expenses paid and your time was occupied and

it didn't cost you very much money. And you had a uniform allowance and one thing and another. I can't think


how one - kept - made ends meet, but you did somehow. I also played a lot of rugby football because when I

left Sherborne I was immediately asked by - Richmond Rugby Football Club if I'd join them, which I did, and I

had tremendous fun with them. And I played in their first fifteen for - more or less regularly, not - all, but

more or less regularly for - '38 and - a little bit of '39.

Where did you play, what position?

I was a wing forward. Which today would require someone a great deal bigger and heavier. But I was quite

fast. But in those days the captain of Richmond was a marvellous fellow called John McCraw who was an Irish

international. And - is now Lord Justice McCraw who is a great authority ..........




No, but of course one saw his judgements and things which were pretty - And I did actually run into him - into

him once. And his vice captain was another interesting chap called Charles Laborde. Who was - I don't think

he was every headmaster of Harrow but he was certainly a second master I think.

Can we just look at your life in London. You were going off to work each day from your club. How did you

feel about this job. Because it had been rather thrust upon you. And you weren't earning a lot of money. You

saw yourself as a mere insurance clerk. Were you happy with your lot?

Well I mean I think at that time the war was very imminent and everybody could see it was coming. I felt that

blood was thicker than water. And that in this - company there was a great potential obviously. And it was

really making its - growing its roots and establishing itself. And life was great fun in London then. I mean -

the deb season was in full swing. And I mean it's the most ridiculous affair the deb season, because girls being -

as they said 'coming out' were supposed to be meeting eligible batchelors. Well I was certainly very much in the

circuit. And anything less eligible as a batchelor than me would be hard to imagine. And I mean I was no more

looking for matrimony than - than anything else. But the great problem was not to be out dancing five days a

week. Monday to Friday. And in the end I had a lot of cousins who were 'coming out', who were the same age

as I was. And I made the rule that I would only go to dances with - The system was you were asked to a dinner

party and you went on to a dance with people - cousins or people that I knew extremely well. Otherwise you'd

get on somebody's list and you'd get an invitation to every single night. And you'd be up until 2 o'clock in the

morning. Financially it was alright. I mean I had the right clothes. That wasn't an expense.

What kind of clothes?

Well tails really. White tie. And the only thing you needed was a half crown to get a taxi home. Back to dear

old Cartright Gardens. Because the public transport had packed up by the time - But I enjoyed myself

enormously. My brother wasn't so lucky because he had to work because he was working for a degree. But I

hadn't got any of those worries.

Did you share - not a room?

No, we were just in the same -

Was he disapproving of this. Envious even?


He never really showed it, but I mean I think perhaps - He used to come to some of them if they were, you

know, very - But it was a ridiculous - operation. And I don't think - they say it survives today, but - rather

differently.

You were what was described as 'a deb's delight'?

'Deb's delight'. Which is a ridiculous -

But were they big parties, big dances?

The big dances were. Money was no object really. I mean you had marvellous dinners and - much as you

could eat and drink. And it made up for a very light lunch in the City.

In the London homes of friends?

Yes, mostly in the London homes. Some of them of course in the big hotels. Grosvenor House used to have -

Some of the charity ones would be in hotels. But - mostly in the big London houses. Something that I don't

think goes on -

And did you get involved with any of the young ladies?

Not - not - not substantially is the answer to that.

Would that have been difficult. If you had a girlfriend as perhaps you did. Where would you take her?

Well you see that was really what made the whole thing ridiculous. I mean they knew and everybody knew that

there was no way in which I could entertain them and - But of course when they were cousins and things like

that and ones parents knew them and - And one saw them all the time anyway. That was rather different. But

there was no entanglements of any kind.

What about work. You were turning up bleary eyed four or five days a week were you?

Yes. And - funnily enough I've been trying to - For the M & G who are wanting to put down some historical

records, I've been - putting it on paper. I don't know whether that would be of any -

I'm trying to get your impressions of the place. The new job?

Well, looking strictly at pre-war M & G. It was very small. The year I joined it had a premium income - for the

first time it touched a million pounds. And that was - about - speaking from memory - about equally general

business and life business. And - general business would have been what was then known as fire, accident and


marine. Marine was very small because they'd had a - a hiccup in - in the early 20's when the marine business

took a very severe nosedive. And they were only building that up again very slowly. But - pretty well all the

M & G's clients in those days were bigger than they were. And that was one of the fascinations of ones career.

To see that - the transformation of - offering a service as a quite small company to - ones, generally speaking,

all bigger than you were.

This is a sort of retrospective view?

Retrospective view.

But what about your impressions when you turned up. Did you understand what the firm was about?

Only - I mean it's pretty easy to understand its basic service. And its basic service then as now is to take over

the - surplus of any risk which is over and above what the original accepting company wishes to keep for its

own account. Everybody has on every risk what they call 'a retention'. And that's graded according to their

assessment of the risk. Whatever class of business it may be. And what they do with the surplus is then - has to

be arranged, because no client wants to deal with fifty, sixty, perhaps several hundred insurance companies -

deals with one insurance company. And then that company, the accepting company, its job is to spread the risk

internationally. And the M & G was what's known as a professional reinsurer. In other words a company which

does nothing else but reinsurance. Nearly every direct company that you can think of will accept reinsurance

business. But that's not their core business, it's not the bulk of their business. It was the - the only business that

the M & G did. And there were several. But not an enormous number of other so-called professional

reinsurance companies. The big ones were on the continent. And the - mainly in Switzerland, the Swiss Re.

And in Germany the Munich Re were the two big ones. The eldest one was the Cologne Re. There were other

reinsurance companies dotted around Europe. In Denmark there were several. Some of which had escaped

from Russia and - they were dotted around. But the really big ones were Switzerland and Germany.

There was very little reinsurance activity in Britain?

Well, there was always activity in Britain - between themselves. But they went mostly onto the continent. And

the reason why the opportunity arose for an enlargement of the reinsurance market in Britain was the First

World War. And Dick Guinness was the - one of many who saw the opportunities that was provided by - the -

severing of communications with the continent to establish reinsurance in London. And at that time the defence

of the rolemacked? precluded the formation of new companies. So he found with - some help - a moribund

scotch company called the Mercantile and General Insurance Company. Which in fact was formed to do

workman's compensation business. And failed, it didn't really ever take off. And that's why the M & G had,

and still has, a registered office in Scotland. Because it wasn't able to start from scratch.

May I just ask you why there was such a strong insurance tradition in the UK through Lloyds and other

companies, organisations, but no real reinsurance tradition?


Well - I think my - belief for this is that reinsurance is a very confidential business. And - whereas it is -

straight forward to exchange - a certain amount of business, you do have to reveal your terms to the reinsurer

and you do have to - in other words open yourself to competition if you are reinsuring with your competitors.

To go to a professional reinsurer that is a very confidential transaction and it just goes to him and nobody else

knows about it. And - London - had never established this. But the continent had. The Swiss was established

in about l860. The Munich a little bit later than that. And the - oldest one, the Cologne Re, I think was in the

early part of the l9th century. But I think that's probably the basis as to why it didn't exist here. And it is a little

bit the same in America, there was never - Now there are big reinsurance companies in America and there are

big ones all over the world. At the time we're talking of, pre-Second World War, it was virtually unheard of

reinsurance. I mean when I was asked by aunts and uncles and cousins and things "well now you've left school

what are you doing". And I'd say - if they didn't know uncle Dick and reinsurance, "I'm in reinsurance". And

then you'd have to explain to them what it was. It had never been heard of really by the ordinary man in the

street at all. And - it was only in the last 25 years really, perhaps 30 years, that it's become a sort of household

name. Largely, I regret to say, because of the scandals over reinsurance at Lloyds, where - it may became very

much headline news when it was being used as a sort of - means for siphoning off - illegitimately really

business that was -

Perhaps we can talk about that later. But I would still think that it's not a well known concept outside of the

City?

No, I think that's right.

It's sort of insuring the insurers?

That's it. It is. The other analagy which is quite a good one, it's like a bookie laying off with other bookies.

And balancing his books by getting rid of his surplus commitments on any one risk.

So what was your first job. What were you actually doing when you turned up?

Well, I was given the most basic job which was very useful actually. I was given the filing in the fire

department. I was put in the fire department. And we had business literally all over the world with companies

anywhere you can think of. And I learnt the portfolio of the business that way. But before - leaving the origins

of the M & G I would really think it was useful to record the fact that where the M & G succeeded in a way that

most of those people who saw the opportunity and mushroomed new companies to do reinsurance, where they

failed was it is a very highly technical business. And it's not an easy business to - control and to run. It's the

high risk end of the business because you're only handling the risks which are too big for other - the original

chap to handle. And so it needs very special techniques. And where old Dick Guinness was in fact shrewd

enough to see the necessity for this and he knew one of the Swiss Res people by chance, had met him in

America I think travelling on the boat to and from New York, called Hurlimann, Erwin Hurlimann, who later


became the sort of great white chief of reinsurance, chairman and everything else of the Swiss Re. And Dick

Guinness persuaded Hurlimann for the Swiss Re to put some money into the M & G. Not at that time a majority

shareholding at all. The majority remained with the original founders. It's also interesting to record that uncle

Dick would tell me more than once that his friends in the City all told him that the £20,000 - and that was all he

put into the M & G originally - he would be certain to lose it in reinsurance, so dicey and tricky was it and the

experience had been so - poor.

They were almost right, weren't they?

They were almost right. And they were certainly right for those people who didn't have the technical

background that was provided for the M & G by the Swiss Re. And if we hadn't had the Swiss Re behind us

there's very little doubt that our fate would have been the fate of most of these other mushroom companies.

Did the Swiss Re bail out the company to all intents and purposes?

It had - This is - I mentioned the marine thing with hiccup in the early 20's. That's how the Swiss Re acquired

an effective controlling interest, because they did bail the company out. By the issue of - voting and non-voting

shares which gave them the majority vote. And - so - it's true what you say that - it got pretty near the edge

from time to time. But then of course that is reinsurance. And - it's very interesting to compare it in the context

with its present situation where now it's a hundred percent owned by the Prudential. And the contrast between

the Prudential's business and the M & G's business is total really, because the Pru built up their marvellous and

magnificent and huge business literally on the non-risk end of the business in penny piece premiums from huge

numbers of people. And their great skills were in handling the administrative problems of that and above all

from the service which they gave to these very small policy holders. A service which - has earned them the

reputation that the man from the Pru is a chap who will really look after you, he will really do anything for you

from - putting a new light bulb in to - getting the baby off to sleep. I mean it's literally a marvellous reputation

which they have. And it comes from the - effectively you can say no risk end of the business. M & G was right

at the other end of the scale. Where - in modern - today's terms you have to deal as they did in October of last

year with such huge catastrophes as Hurricane Hugo and the latest San Francisco earthquake. Plus another huge

fire and explosion which was very little advertised. I think it was the Philips complex in Texas. Now those are

the sort of things that the Pru's business would, until they acquired the M & G, virtually they would pass them

quietly by.

There is a sort of difference in approach, culture ...?

Philosophy. Total.

Which I would like to explore with you in depth. But perhaps we might leave that until a few years have

passed. I'm trying to get an impression of the office and the setup there. There's you down in the filing

department. Reading the papers as you file them so you're getting some idea?


Exactly that.

Was there anyone supervising you?

Yes. There were - there were - The fire department consisted of two people who you could say were

management. And they were very special characters. And one was a Scot called Pat Robertson. Whose father

had been general manager of the Northern Insurance. A very big and important Scotch company. And the other

was a fellow called Michael Burton-Stewart. Who was an old Etonian and whose family were Stewarts and

Lloyds, steel people. Totally different characters. But - very - they were splendid people. The clerks were a

fellow called Dick Smith who was the sort of superintendent. Don Warrener - about two, if not three years

senior to me. And then me. Really that was the whole file department.

But you were related to the owner?

Yes.

How did that affect your relationship with the others?

Well not at all really. I think I can really truthfully say that. I mean - Don Warrener and Dick Smith were both

public school boys too. And I think - our difference - if you can call it difference in background, was - not -

one that I was at all conscious of. The office itself was on one - at one end of one floor. This was the file

department. Of 25 Moorgate. Which was owned by the Provident Mutual. And - the whole thing was

extremely small. Mahogony desks. And very - by today's standards, primitive facilities.

Did you see the owners and more senior people. Or were you kept away?

No, I mean I was in constant touch with Robertson and Stewart. And the two out in the office. And of course

Pook was there. But he didn't survive very long actually, he died in l940. And - one - was - quite - it was

interesting and quite busy. And the other aspect - there was the fire contract treaty department. There was also

a facultative department. Now facultative was an individual risk. Most of the business is done by sort of

blanket cover. So much of all the surplus I mean it was done in a treaty and - reported on what they call

bordereaux

What is that?

Sheets of paper indicating separate risks. Called bordereaux. But you didn't have to decide on a single risk.

You decided in saying "that I will take five percent of your surplus". That was it. They then reported the risks

on which you were committed on these sheets called bordereaux. Which were great big things like this. If a

risk was placed individually, separately, one particular risk, it was hawked round the market in what was called


the facultative - facultative in its derivative meaning. And that was run by - several - clerks. Including one,

which was very good psychology, a very pretty girl indeed. And since these facultative clerks from all the big

companies in the City had to - it was up to them as to where they got the cover from. If they though well it

would be nice to go and talk to Sylvia Hall in the M & G because she's a jolly good looker and great fun, they'd

come to her you see. And that was very good business.

Was it unusual to see women in the insurance industry then?

No. No. There were quite a lot, quite a lot. And she's still alive. Lives down Brighton. I got a Christmas card

from her this year and she's now about 80 something and she was very, very attractive, very amusing and great

fun. She never married funnily enough. Anyrate, that was the facultative department. And then there was

another department, not actually in 25 Moorgate, but up in City Road. Where these bordereaux of risks were

analysed so that you controlled your commitments. And if you got - for example at that time - what is now the

Barbican was a very dangerous conflagration area of the wool trade. And they were mostly wooden buildings

and the German blitz bombing destroyed the whole lot. And you had to be very careful that you didn't get too

much on any one complex, or any one area. And that was the role of the indexing department. Which was -

consisted of about 60 ladies of uncertain age and type and description.

Employees of your company?

Employees of the company.

60, that's quite a lot. So the number of staff in total was how many would you think?

I should think that comprised about half the staff before the war.

It sounds quite a reasonable sized operation?

Yes.

I mean for you turning up there it must have seemed like quite a lot of people?

Except that you only - that 60 were away in another building and I hardly ever went there. I did go there once

or twice. It was run by a Swiss actually who ran that. Who was called Newkom. And he was a very - typically

Swiss, meticulous and very thorough chap. And - But the other interesting thing, the life department which

today is enormous. I mean - it does the most tremendously big business. I mean its business doesn't look all

that insignificant when compared with the Prudentials.




I think there were four on this desk. But it was handling - you know, not a - a substantial for the age and the

stage. But compared to today - it's really remarkable to think that the M & G's life count was at any time run by

four people. Of course there were two actuaries. There was - a man called Cluff. And a man called Foster.

Who later became very important in the company. And they had rooms of their own. But they were officials,

they were managers as opposed to clerks. And then there were these four clerks on the - on the desk.

What would you be doing during the day. You'd be exclusively filing?

Yes, I mean - the whole system of filing involved - if it was changing the terms of a contract or if it was a

letter which was waiting for a reply, or if it was - negotiations of some sort. You had to keep track of this and

so there were - had to be entered into outstanding books and diary systems and - if it was agreeing then there

were addenda to the contract to be drawn up and signed. And if it was concluding a new treaty as we called

them; that was a contract that had to be - signed and stamped in those days too. And there was - there is a lot

to learn. And I mean it was a very good way of learning. And of course I was only there from - about February

'38 until August '39. When I was called up for the war. And - in that time I learnt a lot about the portfolio of

the M & G right from South America, Australia, the Far East, Scandinavia, Europe, you know. And -

But the war was looming?

The war was looming all the time. And my activities in the Territorial Army were taking up more and more -

of ones time. And you could see the thing was - was coming and -

What happened. Did you enlist or were you called up?

Well - I enlisted in a fairly remarkable way, because - my cousin Airey Neave who lived here then, and he and

I were together here. And for some reason we were listening to some news. Or there may have been a

newsflash on the radio. When you may remember Anthony Eden - and this was at the time of Munich. And

Munich was - November '38 was it, or October '38. Whenever it was. At that time Anthony Eden announced

that they were going to double the Territorial Army just like that. And that if - there was one regiment it was

going to become two. And they called for volunteers, absolutely immediate volunteers. And sitting - I don't

know whether it was this room or the next room, I think may easily have been this room and may easily have

been listening to, in those days, that particular radio there. And Airey in an impulsive way which was not

entirely characteristic of him, said "come on. Let's go and join up". And so I said "well, why not. And where".

And he said "well, there's a drill hall in Fryerning Lane". Which is - leads - the road we came up from the

station. "Let's go and see what's going on there". And so we presented ourselves and said "we've just heard the

minister for war's appeal for volunteers for the doubling of the Territorial Army. We've come to offer our

services". And - they said "very pleased to see you. Did you want to be officers or soldiers". And we said

"well, if you've given us the choice we'll be officers". And so they said "well sign on the buff form as opposed


to the pink form", or whatever it was. And we became officers just like that. Not quite as stupid as it may

sound because in fact we both had what was known as 'certificate A', which in the old TC, the officer's training

corp of public school, you did if you went through a whole sort of series of training and then you - if you passed

the exams which were quite sort of elaborate, you got certificate A.

And you had done this, had you?

Yes. And Airey had done it at Eton and I'd done it at Sherborne. And that qualified one to - become - an

officer. And that's what we became. The role of this regiment, which was in fact - they were Royal Engineers -

and they were a searchlight unit. And it so happened quite a few of ones friends in the neighbourhood had done

the same thing. Some of them considerably ahead of us. And it was really quite - quite a fun thing. But quite

obviously - I mean now jumping ahead to when the war actually broke out - it wasn't - I was not going to spend

my war shining a searchlight up in the sky. And I discovered that under wartime conditions Kings Regulations

allowed a brother to claim a brother to serve with him. Well my brother had joined the l3th/l8th Hussars which

in fact was commanded by my mother's brother. And - but then he went on to promotion to become a general.

And so I got him to claim me. But I couldn't do it until the war broke out, because it had to be - the regulation

only applied in wartime conditions. And it took me about three months to get out of the searchlights.

Could you just clarify something for me. You said earlier that when you were working in London that you

joined the Territorial Army?

I joined it down here.

So your Territorial activities were in this area?

Yes.

At the weekends?

Well, not only the weekends. They had drill evenings. This unit stretched right into London. And its

headquarters in fact was in Brentwood. But its drill halls went right into London. I used a Greenline bus from

the M & G out to the Romford drill hall. And put in my - evening drills there. When I wasn't deb dancing.

And this would be training to use a searchlight?

Which is a pretty complicated machine really.

In anticipation of planes coming up the Thames?


That's right. And there was a whole great anti-aircraft network right across south east England. And - we used

to do camps and things. I did two camps. One in '38 and one in '39 just before the actual outbreak of the war.

Did your father influence your sort of military decision?

No, not at all. I think he felt that - searchlights was a very uninspired choice and that it had been done on the

spur of the moment and rather to be regretted. I mean it was alright.

So war broke out. You were obliged to leave your job?

Well, what happened there was that being - anti-aircraft, which was top priority for defence purposes, we were

called up on the 24th of August l939. And I remember very well going to Pook, the general manager, and

saying that this had happened, which was no surprise I don't think to anybody. It was the last time I saw him

because he died of a heart attack in October. And anyrate I - left the offices I remember about 2 o'clock in the

afternoon. Caught my greenline bus down to my Rumford? drill hall. And realised then that I'd have to have

some transport. And next door to the drill hall was a - a secondhand car dealer. And for £l9 I bought a

secondhand Triumph two seater with a dicky? in it.

A roadster?

A roadster. And it was painted red and white. Red - and then white. And I went home in this straight away,

licenced, insured and everything. Changed into uniform, picked up my kit. And came back to the drill hall.

And then we started to move out into our sites. Which we all knew where we were going to go, right out on the

Essex coast. And they said "you'll need that car, we're going to requisition it from you and we'll pay you £l a

day". So within just over a fortnight - it was by that time by far the best bit of business I'd ever done. So that's

how my war started. And -

In the searchlight battery?

In the searchlight battery. And one was responsible as a second lieutenant for six searchlights. And - in my

headquarters was - my troop headquarters was at Ramsden Heath just outside Billericay. And that's another

story.

And did the social life continue?

It - not in London. But still - around. I mean there were a lot of people who were very good and kind to one

who - But - and then of course the phony war started.

What was going on meanwhile. Your brother was in the army?


He had - he got - called up.

When did you ask to be called?

Well, very soon. Very early on. But he went with the regiment to - France, in the British Expeditionary Force.

And got out at Dunkirk. And I in fact joined the l3th/l8th just the day or the day after they got back from

Dunkirk. In the state of really total - chaos because they hadn't got any - virtually any equipment at all. They'd

got out more or less unscathed apart from lack of tanks.

What did the Hussar Regiment do. It was a tank regiment wasn't it?

It was an armoured regiment. Which was part of an armoured division. An armoured division comprised

usually two or three armoured brigades with all sorts of support - services that had mobile gunners and - light

infantry. And - but you see I mean we weren't effectively an armoured regiment until we'd been re-equipped

after Dunkirk. And that didn't take place until about l9 - I suppose it must have been the end of '4l before we

really had much in the way of tanks and equipment.

Tell me about your wartime experiences. What did you find when you turned up?

Well - being a regular regiment and highly professional - I think they were - much more - but less chaotic,

let's put it that way, than many other people might well have been. I mean they were - they had all the sort of

established relationships and the thing was - was - really not the total breakdown that you might have

suspected. I find the trouble with ones wartime experiences is that you tend - only to remember the good things

about it. And ones memories inevitably are fairly blurred. But - as a - a second lieutenant - one had a troop of

- of men. Theoretically you had three tanks. But of course there weren't any tanks. And so one was really

given a - training was the only thing to be done. And the regiment reformed at Tidworth after Dunkirk. And

then quite quickly they were sent up - and this was remarkable really how quickly they did get a role - to this

part of the world here in Essex. And they were stationed in a place called Gosfield, which is near - between

Braintree and Halstead. And Gosfield Park, which is now an old people's home actually. And I was in C

Squadron. And the squadron leader was a marvellous old boy called Tom Welstead. And he - the regiment's

role was an anti-invasion role. And the equipment we had were known as Beaverettes. And they were the

standard motorcar frames. Around which had been put about 2 inches of oak and half an inch of boilerplate on

three sides, on the two sides and the front, and a slit in the front through which you put a bren gun. And your

chances of deterring the - Bosch - were absolutely nil in these things. And the great difficulty with them was

that they were so heavy that the breaking system which was no doubt designed for sort of rather tidy little saloon

cars, was nowhere near strong enough for this great heavy top hamper which it had on it. And literally the

ditches of Essex were - absolutely full of Beaverettes which had come to grief from failing to get round corners.

However, they did produce morale in the sense that the local population could see that there was something at

anyrate between them and the invasion. And from the soldier's point of view I mean it gave you all elements of

a cohesive and equipped unit even though what you got was just about as useless. And we did a tremendous


number of exercises. We moved around a lot. And then the invasion didn't come. And we were moved nearer

into London at just about the time when the blitz was - taking - getting under way. And our headquarters were

at Epping. We had a particular role to - deal with any parachutists that landed at North Weald aerodrome which

was very much in the centre of the Battle of Britain. And - we were beginning to get a bit more equipment.

Wireless sets and - this - that sort of thing. And we also had a sort of morale job of driving down into the

docklands to try and let the local population see that there were some soldiers around. And - But - And to be

brief we did that role for a certain length of time. And again we were never called into action because the

parachutists were never dropped on North Weald aerodrome. Although it was bombed absolutely to destruction.

And - in fact the operations room had - was moved to Blake Hall where great friends of ours - the Capel-Cures

lived.

A stockbroking family?

And insurance too. The broker firm of Hogg Robinson and Capel-Cure. That family. They are a well known

City family. And we then were moved up to Northamptonshire. The theory there being that they were going to

form the 9th Armoured Division under a general called Brockers-Burrows? who was quite a character. Near

enough to where the tanks were being made in Coventry and Stafford and places like that. So that the delivery

would be easier. And this was quite interesting because there was a regimental - what we called an order group

- and the colonel had - and he said "we're going to move to Northamptonshire, our headquarters are going to be

Towcester. Does anybody know anybody there who could be helpful in getting us sort of the right kind of

accommodation". Well it so happened that my godfather and uncle - Arthur Guinness, the brother of Dick

Guinness who founded the M & G and who was master of the Grafton hounds and who had a lovely house in

Greens Norton lived there. And it was a great dilemma for me whether to keep quiet about this and avoid his -

you know, great - embarrassment of having to be moved out of his house. Anyrate I don't think it would have

made the slightest difference whatever I'd said. But anyrate - we did go and we were established at Towcester.

As the result of your saying something?

Well I merely said that I knew the area. And they didn't take over Greens Norton Hall where he lived. But we

were accommodated in various farmhouses and other houses in other places. We very quickly got ourselves

with our feet well under the table. And we had tremendous fun in Northamptonshire because the phony war

wasn't totally over even although Dunkirk was. I mean people still had a bit of booze in their cellars and they

gave parties. Northamptonshire was really great fun.

What year would that be?

This would be '4l. We'd been through - Dunkirk was the middle of '40. The winter of - of '40 had been in this

part of the world. And then I think we moved up to - Northamptonshire I would think in '4l. And the tanks

began to - to arrive. And we began to learn how to drive them. And this time they were Crusaders. British

made. And they tended to be - fairly light and fairly big, fast and pretty unreliable really. They weren't terribly


mechanically sound. A great characteristic of the tanks, the British tanks in those times, was their speed and

manoeuvrebility, but not really frightfully reliable. And they had two pounder guns which were pretty light

stuff. I mean they weren't - very heavily armoured. And we spent a lot of time then being trained and we used

to go down to the armoured fighting vehicle school at Bovington and gunnery school at Lulworth. And go off

to ranges down in Linnihead? in - in South Wales. And at that time I was made gunnery officer I remember,

which was fascinating - I really enjoyed that. And I was the chap who was supposed to know all about the guns

and how they should be used and all this. And had to run the training courses and things. And time passed very

quickly. And then came the great - decision - when the invasion was being planned that our particular brigade

which was the 27th Armoured Brigade - should have a particular role on D Day. Which was to be equipped

with - with a swimming tank, with an amphibious tank. And this had been invented by an Austrian - Jewish

refugee from - Hitler's Anschluss I forget his name, but he was a fascinating chap. And the invention was a

very simple one that it's the principle of a matchbox really. He used to demonstrate this. That anything will

float providing the equivalent volume of - air is displaced as water is displaced. I mean if it's a piece of lead and

- in matchbox terms, it won't sink. And he devised a canvas screen held up by air pressure pillars, that the

screen sort of was built round the hull of the tank and you turned on the air pressure cylinders and shot these

great things up in the air. And you then would float. Well to give you propulsion there was a propellor in the

back of the tank and the tracks went round. And the theory was that for the landing you would arrive

simultaneously, or virtually simultaneously, with the infantry. And provide them immediately with artillery and

heavy gunfire that wasn't otherwise available. You would just have to land on the shore with a rifle and light

machine guns if you haven't got the amphibius tank support. And - I've got a picture I'll show you. And this

necessitated joining a special division called the 79th Armoured Division. Run by a remarkable man called

Percy - General Percy Hobart. Who was a martinet and a very difficult man to deal with. But a genius. And he

had had a row with - the War Office and had been retired early. I mean it's very well documented what the

whole story of course was. But Churchill found him doing nothing and dragged him back and put him in charge

of this 79th Armoured Division, which had all of what were known as the 'funnies'. It had the flails? to blow up

the mines. It had the - carried great rolls of chess pailing? to fill up the trenches. It had all the funny things

including the so-called 'DD' or Duplex Drive - amphibius tank. And it was deadly secret, everything was

absolutely sort of - had to be - kept in the most frightful secrecy. And we did training up at Fritton near

Yarmouth. And I can tell you all sorts of stories, but I mean this is - And gradually we became ready for the

invasion and we spent the whole winter up in Fort George on the Murray Firth about 20 miles east of Inverness.

And in January if you please, in that climate, we thought we're going to be absolutely arctic, but it wasn't. And

these tanks were kept on the hards? outside Fort George.




There you are at Fort George?

We all thought that we'd be able to hear the wolves in Siberia, but in fact we didn't. But what they did to us was

at night you'd get picked up by an LCT, which is a landing craft tank, which would hold six of these tanks. And

then you'd drive out to sea in the Murray Firth and land on Berghead Bay or the Culbin Sands or really all this

sort of MacBeth country. Round Nairn Elgin and - with the mouth of Findhorn River. And it was pretty

alarming all in the dark. These ships milling about. And then launching into totally dark sea, hoping that you

were pointing in the right direction to land on the beach. And the whole thing was - I mean an incredible series

of rehearsals. And of course the one thing that one realised in this was that however it went it was bound to be

chaotic. And so confusion was the commodity with which one learnt to be familiar. And on the day that was

very good because - things were inevitably even more confused. We then came south to our assembly areas. In

our case it was Petworth Park. And then for the great D Day we moved down to Portsmouth. I have to

foreshorten all this, I mean I could talk for hours. We got on board our craft and waited for the off, which was

postponed for 24 hours because of the weather, as history will recall. I should now explain that the organisation

for the landing was that a DD regiment had two swimming squadrons - equipped with DD tanks. One support

squadron which had wading - it didn't actually swim to the shore. It rammed its craft onto the shore and drove

ashore. And headquarters - by this time I was adjutant and had been adjutant for - about a year I suppose. I

don't think I've ever worked harder in my life. It was really the most demanding job. Partly because - I - had

several commanding officers for various reasons. But the one who I served as adjutant to for longest and who

really prepared the regiment most, was a man called Tom Molton-Barrett. A direct descendent of the Barrett of

Wimpole Street who - whose martinet characteristics were to some extent - reappeared in Tom. But I got on

with him very well. And in one of these - Murray Firth, Fort George rehearsals he got badly injured in trying to

rescue a naval rating who got caught up in the - the gearing that lifted the - the - front of the landing craft

which let down to let the vehicles move off. The ramp. And that brought on an old - problem that he'd had in

the Far East when he had been soldiering out there, of amebic? dysentry, and he literally at the last minute had

to - had to go. But I'm getting ahead. But so the regiment was commanded on D Day by his second in

command, a man called Dick Harrup. Tom Molton-Barrett wasn't a l3th/l8th Hussar, he was a 4th/7th Dragoon

Guard. Dick Harrup was always a l3th/l8th and much loved by everybody in the regiment. And was very

professional and a splendid chap. But more about him later. Anyrate, that was the landing pattern for D Day.

We in fact, the l3th/l8th were the extreme left of the attack. Or the most easterly on the mouth of the River

Orme at a place called Wistraham? And because of the tide situation it meant in fact that the very, very first -

landing was that left flank. And the others had to wait for the tide, about half an hour, half an hour and half an

hour. And the Americans and Canadians on our right, or to the west of us, were that much later. And this was a

great advantage really from the point of view that if you were going to achieve any surprise that we would get

the biggest advantage from that. And in fact that is what really happened. Although I think that the Germans


weren't in fact - they were expecting it to happen but - not - it was sort of - surprise was achieved to some

extent anyway.

What was the outcome. Did you get a pounding?

We were very successful. We were far the most successful of the DD landings. And our job was then to secure

the bridge over the River Orme on our left or to the east of us, to link up with the 6th Airborne Division who had

landed by parachute and glider on a landing area just the other side of Pegasus Bridge as it was known. And the

story is told of the subaltern in - in B Squadron, which was one of the swimming squadrons, who arrived there

on Pegasus Bridge and found the captain in charge who was - General - a big fat man who looked just like Fred

Emney the actor. I'll think of his name. And apparently this chap Douglas Coker who later commanded the

regiment. The story is told, I don't know whether it's apocryphal or not, saluted him and said "General, here I

am, Douglas Coker, commanding third troop of D Squadron. I'm sorry I'm quarter of an hour late". But it's a

good story. And then we - did away with our - amphibious equipment. I should explain that we'd landed in

Sherman tanks, American Sherman tanks which were very - slow, solid, reliable, not great fire power, but

definitely an improvement on the Crusader. And we were then reformed after a certain amount of fighting on

the left flank there, as the 8th Armoured Brigade. The 27th Armoured Brigade had rather an attractive seahorse

as our badge. The 8th Armoured Brigade had a fox's mask. And the brigadier who commanded us all through

was Errol Prior-Palmer. And then the battle of Normandy was on and we took a very prominent part in most of

the battles there. First of all containing the left or east flank, which was - the idea should have been the pivot

and the Germans had come in to attack that to allow the Americans to break out to the south. And then secondly

whilst that was still going on we were taken out and sent round to soften up the centre a bit. And to capture,

which was one of the great successes of the regiment in the war. The mountain, which wasn't all that high,

about 3,000 feet, called Mont Passon, which dominated from the whole surrounding countryside. And we got

on top there.

What were your own experiences, your personal experiences?

Well, I was one of the first people up on the top of Mont Passon. Because I'd travelled in the colonel's tank.

The colonel by this time - Dick Harrup got killed very shortly after the D Day landing. And his second in

command who had come to us when - Tom Molton-Barrett, the previous colonel, had had to -

So your commanding officer was killed early on?

He was killed. About D plus two. D plus three. Was the Earl of Feversham. Sim, Earl of Feversham, who was

second in command. He took command temporarily until - another ex l3th/l8th, called Vincent Dunkley came

back to command the regiment. And Sim Feversham reverted to being second in command. And one troop of

the regiment - going back to Mont Passon - had seen an opportunity of getting to the top of the - of this - he'd

seen a chance of doing it and had gone straight for it and got there. And the colonel who had seen this - he and I

in the tank together - saw that this was the thing to do and we followed this troop straight up. So we - just as


night fell there we were sitting on the top. And it was a very dramatic and important achievement, because then

the Germans shelled us all night. We had a pretty - bloody awful night. And there were a lot of Germans

wandering around. You could hear them, they all lost their way and they didn't know where the devil they were.

And - then the following morning a whole lot of people including the rest of the regiment came up onto the top

of it and - Then came the breakthrough. And the great barrier for the breakthrough was the bridge over the

Seine. I could tell lots of stories of this, but - And one story might be worth telling. At the breakthrough

where the Fallows Gap? which history has - has recorded so fully. We arrived at an absolutely classic, typical

French chateau. Which the Germans had left. It had trees, a drive - and lined with trees as you imagine and this

classic chateau at the end of it. And the German tanks had all been parked in between the trees, as indeed we

would have done too - to give them air protection from the air. And I don't suppose they'd been gone for more

than ten minutes when we arrived. And we were met by the French owner, who was in a state of excitement

that I've never seen anything like it. And he was dancing about and he was wearing an MC, a British military

MC, which he'd got out from somewhere and he'd pinned it on and there it was. And in broken French he

explained that he'd won this in the First War, in the British Flying Corp. And he pulled out what he said was the

last remaining bottle of champagne, which we drank. And then his excitement was mounting. He took me -

why me I don't know - by the hand, through this house which had a walled garden behind it. And at the end of

this walled garden was a chapel. And he took me into this chapel. His excitement mounting as we got to the

altar. And he swept the chalices and the altar cloth and everything off the altar, lifted up the lid and there was a

pair of Purdy l2 bore shotguns. And he'd kept them there all the war. And he just couldn't contain himself.

About five minutes later we were on our way again.

With the Purdys, or did you leave them there?

No, no, no. No, we left him his Purdys. Chasing after the Germans.

You were mentioned in despatches I believe. What was that for?

I don't think you ever know. Well I mean - I got - my MBE is a military one. Which - the - citation I can

show you, but - my brother got an MC because he was in one of the - one of the very, very first DD tanks to

land on the beach. But -

Did both of you come out unscathed?

My brother was - wounded at Dunkirk. Not badly, in the arm. I - came out just about unscathed. We then -

the whole of that Falaise Gap period was absolutely - most astonishing and - The Germans had a tremendous

amount of horse transport. And there was one place which we named 'Dead Horse Chateau'. Where I should

think there were best part of four or five hundred dead horses, which had been -

And these very narrow Normandy roads - the airforce had sort of bombed them so that they were completely

impassable and then they just roared up and down - machine gunning the thing. And the devastation - was

absolutely unbelieveable. Dead Germans and - dead horses and - Anyrate, we went on to cross the Seine.


And there's another story. My - Vincent Dunkley was very - he was a great sort of - entrepreneur. He was also

at Lloyds actually. And - but I can tell you many stories about him. But anyrate, we were there and he said

"well now it's going to take them 3 hours to build a bridge. We've got nothing to do, let's see if we can get into

Paris". This was at Vermore? Which was I suppose about 50 miles from Paris. And I said - he said "I know the

barman at the Ritz very well. We'll go and take a drink off - " - whatever his name was, George. So I said

"right, come on". And he said "we'd better do this quietly so that nobody knows about it". So I told my driver

to get some sleep and stay behind and I'd take the staff car. By the grace of God we hadn't gone more than

about - 5 miles when we ran out of petrol. Well he couldn't blame the driver because - . So he said "we've got

plenty of spare petrol in the two cans at either side". They were both full of Calvados. Which is French apple

brandy as you know. And - that he'd taken care to give himself an adequate supply of from some farm in - in

Normandy. Had we been able to get through we would have run into the Germans who were still in Versailles,

let alone - . Well, we got across the - the Seine and we roared through - the Pas de Calais. Cutting a long

story short, through Brussells, which we were amongst the very earliest to - liberate.

How long were you in Brussells?

We weren't. We went right through because they wanted to - The Aldershot of Belgium is a place called Bourg

Leopold. And they wanted the place contained so that the - the Libre Belge, the free Belgian forces, could

liberate that themselves. They made the most appalling cock of it because they were all drunk. And we told

them where the Germans still were. Because we weren't allowed to go in and get rid of them because - we

wanted it to be left to the Belgians to do it themselves. And - they went roaring in and got badly shot up.

Anyrate, from there we then moved on and there was a nasty time at the Albert Canal. The Germans were very

- They fought like hell. And we had a sticky time there because they got in and - behind the tanks were two -

How did you feel about going back to civilian life?

Well I was very thrilled to be going back. Although of course one had the opportunity of staying in the army.

And I mean one was in a very favourable position in the army. Enjoying ones self. One had reached a certain

rank. One had got established with a lot of people in a very good regiment. But I think one instinctively knew

that that was not going to be a future that would - certainly I felt it wasn't going to appeal to me. And I was

looking forward very much indeed to going back. And I'd given pretty clear undertaking that I would come

back. And any communication I'd had - which was not by any means nil - with the company, had indicated that

they were looking forward to having me back. And so I was enthusiastic. What I hadn't realised was the - well

put it this way, I think that the survival of the company, the Mercantile and General, was a triumph. Because

difficulties under which they'd been working were absolutely horrific. And - a year before I came back they

had installed a new general manager. The one that I left died shortly after the war started. And Charles Calburn

who in fact had been working for the Swiss Re, had got back from Switzerland soon after the war started. And

he was a great linguist, he's a very great man. And he'd been caught up in the intelligence service and he'd

worked on - one of these very secret places for quite some time. Achieved quite a high rank. But then got out

and became chief executive of the Mercantile and General. And he was a very far seeing man. Very continental


in outlook. I think his forebears had come from the continent in fact. And I think two generations ago his name

had changed from something very Austrian or German to - to British, as Calburn. And he had already started to

plan the expansion of the M & G.

You wouldn't have been aware of that yourself at that point?

Only because I kept in touch with him. I'd known him and he'd always said "look here, there's something worth

while coming back to".

How did you communicate while the war was on?

By letter. Or when I was on leave I'd go and see him. There were two people, I may have mentioned them

already, who became great friends, was Michael Stewart and Pat Robertson. Who were sort of middle

management and very enlightened and - quite sort of interesting people in many ways. And I'd go and see

them. And although Michael Stewart was in the Fleet Air Arm he didn't get called up until fairly late on. Pat

Robertson never got called up. But he blotted his copybook, he didn't get the top job. Because he was a very

ebullient - Scotsman, a great sort of bon vivant too. And when Fred Pook who was general manager when I left

- when he died, my uncle Dick Guinness formed what he called a general purposes committee. And which Pat

Robertson called 'a general paralysis committee'. That - that didn't go down very well. And I think that lost him

really the confidence of my uncle, which I quite understand. And he took himself off back into the broker

market. So Calburn took over a fairly - fairly virgin soil. There were one or two people there who were first

class. One was a man called Carlton Hall? who ran what we called the Axton business? Which was all the -

nowadays it's all merged into sort of general, personal lines, motorcar, personal accident. A lot of the sort of

miscellaneous. He was a very brilliant man and I can talk about him quite a lot later. And there was Clough and

Foster on the life side. The life side had been established by then for - since about the very early 20's. And was

really beginning to go. But Clough left. And I never had much time for him. He was a socialist from

Southend. And he couldn't see that the future for reinsurance was going to be at all rosy. Foster on the other

hand was a brilliant man. An actuary. And although he was a very - he was a very religious man, a very -

abstemist, he didn't drink, he didn't smoke, he was - very - he was very - abstemious in every way. But he was I

think about the most commercial man I ever met in my business life. And he built up a fantastic life business in

the end. But at the end of the war nothing was happening really very much. And - I came back to a City that

was devastated by the bombing. That had - not done very much to repair the damage. Nobody had done any

maintenance, there wasn't any - nothing had seen a lick of paint for God knows how long. There was a very

depressed air about it. And - it was quite - a traumatic experience to come back and be told by Charles Calburn

- who had told me before I came back when I wrote to say I was being demobilised - that he had a job for me.

But he didn't tell me what it was. And when I came back the job he gave me to do was a great challenge and

very acceptable to me. But when he told me that my salary was going to be £400 a year I must say my morale

dropped very considerably. Although I did realise that of course my value to the company - having been away

for - fully 6 years and having really done very little before I went away, was - was pretty well nil.


You had been only earning £70 a year before you went?

Before I went.

£400 sounds quite a jump. Was that not the case?

Well I mean there was a whole war in between then. I was 6 years older. I'd had a very big responsibility.

Probably as bigger a responsibility as anyone will ever have, which is looking after a large number of men in

active service conditions. And I reckoned that £400 a year was - much more impossible to live on than £70 a

year had been before the war.

So what was your general feeling. You had come back a victorious army officer?

Total deflation. Total deflation. I don't think I was the only one. And I remember very well at home

mentioning this to a wise old bird who was ex navy. And who was dining with my parents at home. And he

said "I can understand your feelings, but give it l8 months anyway before you -. And then at the end of that time

I think you'll be entitled to say - I mean if you can't pay me a bit more - you were going to look somewhere

else".




[Question inaudible]?

They had a whole lot of Eastern Europe - working, slave workers, called DP's, or displaced persons. And the

moment that Bremen became liberated they'd all broken into these huge warehouses full of French drink and

wine and brandy and stuff. And so the place was a mass of absolutely drunken - people. Which took a great

deal of controlling. But that - we got that under control. And then we were moving on to do the same to

Bremerhaven? And we'd stopped about a few miles out. And it was announced that the war - there was an

armistice and the war was over. And I can remember a feeling which is really rather boring. I was so exhausted

I didn't want to celebrate anything at all except just to go to bed and sleep. And I think I slept for about - I don't

know - 20 hours or something.

What was your worst experience in the war do you think?

What was the most unpleasant thing that happened to you?

I think being shelled on a number of occasions. Usually - very often at an O group. One used to have to go to

these O groups, the colonel and I, to a brigade O group or a divisional O group. And I remember several

occasions when the Germans just - dropped - knew where we were and just shelled us. Very, very - I didn't -

shelling, I never got used to shelling. Much worse than bombing. Oh, and I mean I think being a target in ones

tank for a German 77, which -

Is that another tank?

No, not 77, a German 88 gun. Which was a very powerful gun. And hearing this thing come past the top of

your head like an express train. Oh, but there were many. But as I said to begin with you don't remember the

frightening and dreadful things. You remember the funny ones and -

Why do you think that is. Does one suppress these feelings because you were scared at the time?

I think maybe that, but it's human nature I think is very kind to one. And - I remember another occasion. It

wasn't horrible for me, but for my brother. And I was on the - the radio, controlling this battle. And he was -

cut off in a village in Germany and the Germans were counter attacking. And - there was no - he wasn't getting

any of the support that he should have been. And there was no way in which he could get out of it. Fortunately

somebody saw this and came across and rescued him. I didn't like that very much.

Rescued him?

Cross fire into the Germans. And the Germans pulled out. But - I haven't quite finished because - to finish the

thing off we then went to Hanover. We had a year - I had a year in Germany when the war was over. In


Hanover for half the time and then down in the edge of the Harts mountains? at a place called Weinenberg? for

the rest of the time before I was demobilised. And that was great fun. I mean we had liberated about 30 horses

from the German police force in - mounted police force in Hanover. We got the racecourse going. The first bit

- I thought priorities were absolutely right - the first bit of recuperation was the Hanover racecourse. And - there

were a lot of stories about what went on in immediate post-war Hanover. But I enjoyed it. And we had horses

and we had fun and we - then went down to Weinenberg? and we took our horses with us. We patrolled the

frontier between the Russian zone and the British zone. And much the easiest way to do that was on horses.

And - then I was - really by this time I was commanding a squadron, I'd ceased to be adjutant. And I was

having a most enjoyable time.

What rank were you at this stage?

Major. And - then came ones demobilisation. And - but one's missed out a tremendous number of stories and

anecdotes and things. But it would just go on forever if one -

To summarise; I hesitate to ask you if you enjoyed the war, but was it ...?

Oh, it was an experience that one - looking back on it having survived it I wouldn't have missed it. And I think

that never having been to university - to have spent ones entire life in the City and just quietly wade ones way

up in the ranks of an insurance company, would have been deadly. And whether I would have had to have gone

to university or had to have done something totally different, to have had 6 years as a soldier and something of

about a year of this under the most intense actual shooting in the war of the most intense possible description.

Having survived it - I keep coming back to that - was of inestimable value to ones career. And you had learnt

how to deal with people and you learnt how to cope with crises, you know, I mean there were -

You think that really was a positive contribution?

Oh, absolutely positive. I mean no way in which it could have been other than totally beneficial. Much more

than - becoming proficient in French and German language which I'd always wanted to do for my work in the

M & G. And much more than getting the letters after my name as a Fellow of the Chartered Insurance Institute,

which I would dearly have liked to have done. But 6 years in the army at the beginning of your career totally

made that impractical. It wasn't a - proposition. You couldn't really -

Do you look kindly upon young men coming out of the military services and going into the City?

Very much so. Very, very much so. Very much so. I mean I think that they've learnt - all the sort of basic

essentials that a business needs. Which is handling of people. And discipline. And - I mean you want the ones

that have come out voluntarily, not the ones that have been chucked out. But - to have the good ones, there's

nothing better.


But you need a certain initiative presumably in business life?

Oh, you get that. I mean that's one of the great things that the army taught me was initiative. Oh yes. I mean

you're in a tight corner, you've got to do something. And - and if you've got a whole lot of people who you're

responsible for in a tight corner, you've got to do that much more. No, I think the army is a marvellous - place

to - teach initiative.

And how did you view the prospect of coming back and working in the insurance business?

Well - this is - was a very, very traumatic experience for me, because after all I'd left the army as a major. I had

no money problems because I had enough for whatever I wanted to do. I had - a groom to look after my horse.

I had a servant to look after myself.

Had you inherited some money yourself. I mean did you actually have some capital?

Not at that time. None whatever. None whatever. Absolutely none.

But you were self sufficient nevertheless?

But I mean the army pay. And they provided most of ones needs. And you only had to buy a few clothes and

that sort of thing. One was having a marvellous life. But I mean one could see it was obvious that it wasn't

going to go on like that forever. And I think I came out at a peak, at the right time. But perhaps I should tell

you about return to the City.




But the job was definitely interesting and a challenge. It was to develop a marine account for the M & G which

they had really virtually abandoned. I think we had about £30,000 of premium income which was absolutely

nothing. And - my - brief was first of all to teach myself about the marine insurance. And then develop the

account. Bearing in mind that in the 20's they had through marine account run into very serious difficulty and

had to be bailed out by the Swiss Re. And it was through that - particular incident that the Swiss Re did achieve

effectively a control of the company by the issue of voting shares or non-voting shares. I mean whichever way

it went the Swiss had the votes to control the company.

But you had no knowledge or interest in this subject had you?

That was years before I joined it at all. And I had no background in marine of any kind. So I set about, you

know, trying to - acquire this knowledge. And Charles Calburn arranged a very comprehensive programme for

me to do so. But I think at this stage it's quite interesting to consider the conditions in the City and what it was

like trying to live on £400 a year. Supplemented only by £5 a month which my father gave me.

He continued to give you that?

He continued to give me that. I was very lucky because my grandmother who was Dick Guinness's sister had -

she was a widow by then and - she had a flat in Sloane Court in London and I went to live with her. And - I

have, I think, spoken about her husband, my grandfather. Who had introduced Dick Guinness into insurance.

And - I was able to live with her. She was pretty old by this time and really I think the family were very glad to

have someone there, in addition to her Irish maid who was a great character and who looked after me

marvellously.

Where was this?

Well the address was 34 Sloane Court. It's just - off Lower Sloane Street. Just by Burton Court, just by the

Royal Hospital Road. Very attractive part of London. And a very nice flat. So I could live there effectively -

free. And I looked after my grandmother's affairs and - you know, paid her bills and, you know, generally

looked after her. And I was very happy there and it worked very well. And - to look - anticipate ahead a little

bit. When she died in '49 - I think just before - Dick Guinness died himself - I kept the flat on. And by this

time was financially able to do so providing I took in some - lodgers. Both of whom were old army friends.

But at this time I used to catch an ll bus to the City. And - it was a pretty grim City. It was - very sort of

delapidated. Nothing really worked very well.

What was happening. There were bomb sites being cleared and things like that?


Well they hadn't really started on any of the clearance. You were really sort of making do with - with what -

was left by the bombing. And of course '47 - which I got back in - in April - '46. And '47 saw absolute rock

bottom because the coal strike - had meant that there was effectively no electricity in the City. And you'd arrive

and it coincided with about the coldest winter that anybody could remember since - I think about '4l was another

very cold one. And you'd arrive at the office wearing every bit of clothing you could. And you wouldn't take

your greatcoat off probably until about mid-day, because there was no heating, there was no lifts, there was no

light. And - one used to ring up, or somebody would ring up and find out whether there was a cafe anywhere

near which had any coffee. And then with torches or a candle you'd take the mail round there trying to keep

warm. And open the mail. By which time it was probably light enough to be able to go and read it in the office.

But it was as bad as that.

What about the people who returned. Did everybody come back that you had known?

Most of them did. Most of them did. And there were several new ones. Charles Calburn had very cleverly got

his team together. And he'd divided up the world sort of geographically. And he'd divided up the business sort

of technically. And I came in on the - I was not a language speaker, never was, so my role was to learn about

marine. Other people were given territorial roles to go and develop business in different parts of the world.

And generally - go and spend long travelling periods going to call on all the insurance companies and find out

what help if any we could give them. For example, FitzGerald who had been in the Pearl in England and had a

slightly life background, but was a tremendous salesman and entrepreneur and a great bon vivant too and a most

interesting character. He looked after India, the Middle East, the Far East, all those sort of territories. Euan

Park who had been with the Norwich Union, he was taken on. Really he spoke French, Spanish and German.

And Calburn himself was absolutely fluent in Italian. He'd worked in Italy. French and German. And he learnt

Spanish. And Donald Warrener? had been away in the war and who had been with me in the pre-war M & G,

he went out to Spain to really become fluent in Spanish, which he very quickly did, and to develop that field.

We had no commitments in the USA because the Swiss really kept us out of that. They were very big in the

States and they'd had tremendous up and down troubles. So America wasn't in our sights for this time and not

until about 30 years later.

Were you trying to pick up business from the European countries that had traditionally handled it pre-war, but

were now in trouble because of the war itself?

Well - not really. The Munich Re had been totally eliminated effectively by the war. And they hadn't really

reappeared on the scene as yet. The Swiss of course were, but they were more partners than - than anything

else. And we really had to - ease our way with them and not to tread on their toes too much. But there was a

lot of sympathy for the British and with its insurance traditions there was a lot of goodwill to do business with

Britain rather than with Switzerland who were regarded somewhat as being fat and - and - cushy, having had a

very uninvolved war.

How did you feel about them?


Well - I didn't feel that about them because the Swiss suffer from their total lack of any sort of sense of humour

which I think justifies Orson Wells immortal remark about them. But - I mean one had to make it ones -

That was a cuckoo clock?

Yes, he said you could point to all sorts of things that almost every country in the world had achieved, from

Shakespeare to Leonardo to Rembrandt. I mean you can go on forever. And when you went to Switzerland

what could you find there, nothing but the cuckoo clock. Well that does sum them up. I mean they are almost

too good to be true. I mean their - everything about the way the Swiss Re did their business has never been

surpassed. It absolutely still is -

I just wondered if you as a military man as it were and recently retired, had felt any sort of resentment?

No, no, no. Slightly envious I think that they had been clever enough to do it. But it didn't endear one to the

Swiss. You could admire them for their - talents and their - great ability. But they're not a very attractive

people I don't think. I don't know whether that's - a view that you've heard before.

Well I just wondered about the relationship with the Swiss. Whether there was any tension in the office?

Not on any grounds other than that. We knew we had to be careful. But I think we were sensible enough to

know that their knowledge and skills were - absolutely vital to our survival. It's a very tricky and very -

complicated business reinsurance. Because you're dealing with the - the risky end of the business. You're

dealing with the - not only the complicated risks but the big risks. And this is something which has got more

and more pronounced as time has gone on. And today that fact is - is even more - in the forefront of the

business than it was just after the war.

You told me that no one really knew what reinsurance was in your family circle and your friends. Did that

worry you. Did people say "what on earth are you doing"?

Well it - I mean up to a point it did. But not when one was fully involved and realised what a fascinating

business it was. I mean -

So you couldn't talk to anyone about it?

You couldn't really. They didn't understand what it was, no. But it didn't - didn't worry me, no. I mean I think

there are a lot of businesses like it. If you ask someone in the money market - what did you did in a discount

house. I mean I don't think they really knew what went on there. But whereas discounting bills and things has

been going on for hundreds of years, reinsurance was - that much more obscure. Made more so by being


completely international. Completely international. I mean there was nowhere where we didn't or couldn't do

business. I mean literally nowhere. The iron curtain didn't stop one having risks in reinsured - And -

Did you go behind the iron curtain for business. Were you able to?

Oh yes. Oh yes. Not at this time, not immediately post-war. But - relatively soon afterwards.

That period when you had just come back and you had just started again. What sort of people would be in the

reinsurance industry. Because it was a small industry presumably?

Yes.

Were they a different sort of people that would be in other areas of activity in the City?

I think they were a little bit. But they were such a small - you couldn't really have any generalisation about it.

I mean there were two or three companies that did reinsurance. But the M & G was always - much the biggest

of them. And there was one called The Victory. Which was at that time relatively independent with

shareholders who were fairly widely distributed. It was very much smaller. It had no life business at that time.

There was one called The Reinsurance Corporation. Which had shareholders from one or two of the bigger

companies. But it wasn't really a very significant - factor.

What about the sort of people that would go into it. One thinks of say the merchant banks and the stockbroking

firms of that time were on the whole staffed by gentlemen, the sons of gentlemen and the privileged classes so to

speak?

Well reinsurance - I think it was a deliberate policy of Charles Calburn to - develop that - side that they should

be. But more important to him was their - although I think their social background was important and we were

very lucky there. I think linguistic ability and - ability to sell and to be - you know - a mixer, that sort of thing.

Selling wasn't looked down on?

Not at all.

But you speak about social background being important. Why do you think that is?

Well because you had to meet everybody. I mean as quite a junior person. Reinsurance was always dealt with

by the boss man. And I found myself as a quite - in my early travels overseas, for example in Norway and

Sweden, where they are pretty stuffy and - and the boss man is very much the boss man. I as a fairly junior

chap in my company, as a reinsurance representative, would be seen by the boss man, the managing director,

who thought himself Christmas really. And you had to be able to hold your own with him and discuss matters


with him. And to be treated by him as an equal. Or he wouldn't see you. And he might see you once but he

wouldn't see you again. And I mean these relationships were built up over years and years and years. And I

mean you'd go back year after year, perhaps twice a year to go and see him and say "what are your problems.

Have you got any business you want us to handle for you". And all that kind of thing.

What would be the common areas though that would make you socially acceptable to one another?

Oh, I think a good educational background.

What would they talk to you about that would indicate ...?

Their leisure activities. It might be fishing in Norway. It might be - shooting, it might be golf, it might be -

you know. It depended.

How did your socialist from Southend get on?

Well he didn't, he left the company.

How did he get in in the first place?

Well life business is a slightly different market. There the thing that mattered was your actuarial skills. And I

mean you - you don't really sell life reinsurance in quite the same way. There - I think - although of course a

salesman is very necessary and - it's very much more technical.

Is it less profitable?

No. It's very profitable too.

And less risk?

And less risk.

Why bother as it were with the other areas then. Your marine area has already proven to be an almost

disasterous area for the company?

Well - under the right - skilled handling there is very definitely profit to be made in general business because -

fire business is a sort of stable - class of business that is recognised as being, you know, generally speaking

profitable. Or was. It goes through, like all business goes through, very definite cycles. But I mean there's a -

big field in general business.


Let's get back to you as the new marine man. What was your title?

I wasn't given a - I was much too -

No title?

No title, no. But there was a plan programmed for me to acquire this knowledge. And that was so busy that - it

made it impossible in fact for me to take the Chartered Insurance Institute exams. Which I very much regretted.

But I had to choose between getting my nose down into the books to get the work done and - or going round and

meeting people and seeing how things worked. And I spent well over a year at Lloyds.

Doing what?

Well, really seeing how the system worked. Because it's very important to understand that. I don't think it's of

any great interest to describe the system. But I went to the biggest brokers called Willis Faber and Dumas. And

Henry Dumas who was the son of the chairman, had just come back from the war like I had. And he was a

delightful chap. And we used to go round the market. He said "it was the blind leading the blind". But in fact

Henry knew what he was doing very well.

He would be looking for reinsurance?

No. He was a broker. This was marine business. I was learning then about marine business, because although

my end of the thing was reinsurance, I had first to learn what marine insurance was all about. And it's a very

changed situation now. But then - the - underwriters - were much more specialised I think than they are now.

And to the point that certain risks were led by certain underwriters and everybody knew who they would be.

And if it was a tanker you would go to one underwriter. If it was a passenger liner you would go to another. If

it was a freighter or some other kind you would go to another. But anyrate everybody knew who was going to

be the best person to lead. Because once you've got a lead as a broker then the others would follow. Because -

'the slip' as it was called would be - I mean take something very straight forward like the Cunard fleet which

everybody knew about the Cunard fleet, or the P & O fleet. I mean the lead was probably renewed from year to

year by the same chap. But if you were dealing with a new one, which didn't happen of course very often, well

then you would know the right person to go to. And although he'd only write say a small percentage, I don't

know whether - it would depend upon the values, but it wouldn't be much more - I mean five percent would be a

very big line. That would mean you've got a lot more people to - build it up to a hundred. And if you've got the

right lead people would say "oh well if old Joe has written it must be alright, then put down my line".

What did you think of Lloyds and the people you met there?

Oh splendid. At that time - it was - great fun. They were - always, like the Stock Exchange, had a reputation

for being fun people. Lloyds was very much the same. And this time was invaluable for me because not only


did I learn a lot about the business and how it was done. More about how it was done than the business itself.

But you got to know an enormous number of people. And made a lot of friends.

How were you able to have this introduction as it were?

Well I think it came actually because Charles Calburn knew - and my first port of call was with him and a

fellow called - oh dear - Dennis. And Dennis was by that time pretty ancient, I think he'd have retired if it

hadn't been for the war. He ran what Willis Faber called their agencies. And their agencies in fact were - the

underwriting as opposed to the broking branch. And people like for instance the Tokyo Marine, which - was

perhaps their biggest - agency, would give them underwriting authority to underwrite business on behalf of the

Tokyo Marine in the London market. And Dennis was the head man, the head underwriter of this agency

division in Willis Faber. All direct business, not reinsurance business. And - I sat in his underwriting room

where he did most of the hull business. And Claude Faber was the - one of the - family of Willis Faber, he did

the cargo underwriting. And I would go and spend time with both of them. Learning and watching and -

hearing how they dealt with the brokers. And one learnt an awful lot. Because I remember very well, I don't

whether you want to hear sort of anecdotes of - But I can remember hearing old Dennis when the broker came

in with a straight settlements fleet, which was the Singapore - ferries, really all round those islands there. And

they were getting re-established after the war and they had I think eight new ships. And so the slip came in for

this vastly expanded fleet and the broker was, you know, cock-a-hoop, saying "well now, look here, this is a

marvellous risk for you. Here we've got all these brand new ships". And to his horror old Dennis halved his

line instead of writing whatever it was, five percent, he only wrote two and a half percent. And this chap

couldn't understand it. Well all the people you see who were going to follow Dennis's lead would wonder why

the hell the old boy had cut the line in half. And he said - I'm thinking out loud now for my benefit - listening

over his shoulder. He said "what's happened is that during the war they lost two or three, if not more ships -

with mines and then the general confusion in one way and another, and with them their best crews. There's no

way", he said, "in which they can man eight new ships with properly qualified and trained crews". And he was

proved right. Because at least one of those new ships went within the year. But it was very interesting for me to

sort of learn what apparently - looked something very attractive, the reasons why far from being attractive it

was quite the other way round.

Hard to learn?

Very hard to learn. Very hard to learn.

It's experience, isn't it?

It only comes from experience. This old man Dennis knew the depth of every harbour in the world without

looking it up in a book. And he knew all the sort of - I bet the underwriters today don't. And I mean he knew

intimately the conditions everywhere. And it will surprise you to hear he'd once left this country when he

wanted to take his daughter on a day trip to Bologne. And that was the only time he'd ever left these shores.


Or been on a ship?

Or been on a ship. But I mean those were the sort of things that one learnt. And then I used to go round with

Henry, round the market placing the business. I learnt a lot about that.

The man who impressed you with his knowledge, he would in turn become a client of yours. Because he was

taking a risk and he would want to reinsure all or part of that risk?

That's right.

And possibly with your firm?

That's right. I mean we would be one of the people who he would use as a reinsurer. To digress here and

develop that, he was unusual in this case, which makes it sound a bit strange that I was sent to a broker.

Because the M & G at that time did not accept business through brokers. And that was a very firm and very

sound business philosophy. The brokers had at that time not really got the hold on reinsurance business they

have now. And - although they did - a lot of reinsurance business they hadn't got the same - hold on it that

they have now.

Why would the broker need to reinsure?

No, the broker didn't reinsure. But he went to the underwriter and the underwriter would say "I need to reinsure

this. Will you go and place it for me". And then the broker would, for a commission, come to reinsurers and

they would accept a share of -

So you would be getting a commission at both ends?

So you would be getting a commission at both - Well in fact he didn't, he got the commission from the

reinsurer who would pay him. Not from the seeding company.

But he would be earning a commission on the original..?

Yes. And it was the M & G's policy not to deal with brokers. We did always make one or two exceptions. And

of course the Willis Agency was one. And there our biggest account with them was one of the agency

companies written by Willis's called Cornhill. And - we - did business. But normally if I went to Norway I

would expect to deal directly with the Norwegian company, not accepted through an intermediary. And this

wasn't really because we didn't like paying the commission. This was because it was much more satisfactory to

have the direct connection ....



.... The people you were doing your business with was of very much more importance then than I think possibly

it is now. And the continuity of the relationship was very important because the results of any one year are

likely to be very valuable. And you couldn't really look to making your long term - your profit over the short

term. You'd have to look quite over the long term. And in a relationship of l0 years the chances are that 2 or 3

of those years you might really be quite seriously in the red. But you'd make it up over the period. And any

company that you dealt with you had to make it absolutely clear to them that you expected them to see you - on

a - profit making - run. I mean that - it was - not expected that you would make a profit every year. That it

would only be in the long term that the relationship would be a profitable one. And this is something which the

broker would not be concerned with. And the broker would merely get the best terms he could. And very often

if he was handling an account, or a treaty as we called it, the reinsurance at any one time some would have made

a profit and some would have made a loss. And so - if he can negotiate better terms the ones who were on the

up side might feel that was alright. But the ones on the other side would have a different view. And it was

complicated in all sorts of ways. Very complex and very - there is so much to say that I mean I really couldn't

begin to go into all of the inuendos and whys and wherefores.

How long then did your training programme last. When did you feel confident that you could go out?

Well after - I went on several trips. And I was - I went up to Liverpool and I had a very uncomfortable but very

interesting month up there. And I went to -

Why uncomfortable?

Because I stayed in the most appalling pub that I could ever remember. I couldn't afford to stay in the Adelphi

which was pretty crummy then anyway. And that was the only other pub and they found me some absolutely

appalling pub. I remember the damp was all over the walls.

The first pub you had stayed in?

Probably I should think, yes. Anyrate, I learnt a lot there. And I made friends there which is the important

thing. To know people. And I went to Dublin, which was very interesting because there there was a chap who I

got to know who'd also come out of the Army and who'd gone over to run a pretty small - starting from scratch -

marine underwriting concern. And one was able to see the thing really absolutely from the ground floor. And

he was a chap who is still alive and living quite close to here. And I still see him and know him very well. And

we had a lot of fun. And he - I mean had the same sort of ideas, we did the same sort of things. And he had the

same sort of background. And that was all great fun. And - then I was to go partly - I went to Switzerland, to

the Swiss Re. And I spent a month there. And I learnt a lot.

Did they speak English to you there?


Oh yes, they all spoke English.

Did they treat you like an employee there?

Yes, but of course they knew that I wasn't quite the same. I mean I was older because of the war. And they

knew I'd been in the war and they knew - Oh yes, no, they were very nice and very kind and very hospitable,

but very dull.

What do you think they thought of the M & G people?

Always slightly envious. Always slightly -

Why?

Well because we somehow or other managed to - bring a bit of spark of - of humour and fun into the thing I

think.

They didn't see you as sort of inefficient or - ?

Oh, I think they did that too, yes. And we weren't anything like as inefficient as - But I mean they never

made a mistake. If they did the - end of the world came. But no, they were very nice. And - and - you know, I

think we - I tried terribly hard not to be patronising and - But they were very - competent and very good

teachers. And I learnt a great deal. I learnt a great deal.

Is there a significant development about this time. This must be around '47 I suppose.

'48, '49, yes.

Was it '47 or '48 there was a treasury dictate that said settlements in Swiss franks would no longer be acceptable.

I think I read that in your background document. Do you remember that? Which must have put a strain on the

relationship. I suppose it meant that the Swiss couldn't draw profits from the business?

There were a tremendous number of exchange control regulations which were always changing and which were

always a difficulty. But the Swiss were very - in that way very broad minded. I mean they had investments all

over the world themselves. They were very well aware of how to - very expert at handling foreign exchange.

And I think taught us a lot in how to handle our own multi currency operations. And very expert they were.

Very shrewd in - in doing - currency deals.


What happened when your founder chairman Richard Guinness died, which was in '49. Did that reverberate

throughout the industry?

Well - to some extent. Of course his influence on the business was always on the financial side and the

investment side. Never on the underwriting. Not significantly.

So it wouldn't have had a big impact on your day to day work?

No. No. Before leaving my training, there was one aspect of my training which was frustrated sadly. I was

going out to be with a French company. And I was going to spend 3 months with them. The idea was more to

learn French than anything else. But they were - one would have learnt a lot about marine business again from

being immersed in this thing. But I had a - a crash on a steeplechase - in a steeplechase. And - I broke my

collarbone, which doesn't sound very bad, but in fact it was a very bad break and it necessitated my going into

hospital for 3 weeks and having a bone graft taken out of my hip and stuffed into my shoulder. And -

That was a big operation wasn't it?

It was a big operation. And there was a marvellous man who did it called - Osmond Clark. He was later the

Queen's orthopaedic surgeon, but not at that time. Although he had - he was very well known. And this was at

the London Hospital. And I tell the story because it's really rather a marvellous story about doctors. And when

the whole thing was over, and I'd been in a private ward for - I suppose at least 3 weeks, and this major

operation had taken place. And it had been a complete success. In due course I got a bill for £250 I think it

was. And I wrote to him and I said - you know, I thanked him for all he'd done and said that I'm very sorry that

I couldn't send him a cheque just like that, but it would take me some time. And explained that my financial

position was one that having come back from the war I was only earning £400. And it was not possible to live

on that anyway. And he wrote back and he said if he'd had any idea that that was my financial position he'd

never have sent me a bill. Would I please tear it up. And it gave me a very good - marvellous feeling of - of -

top doctors of that kind.

Your firm wouldn't have paid. There was no such thing as employee insurance?

I would never have asked them to. I would never have asked them to. There was nothing like - no sort of

insurance, no BUPA, no - no nothing of that kind. No.

But that would have been a devastating bill, wouldn't it. You I suppose could have gone to some form of State

National Health hospital?

Well -

Did you contemplate doing that?


Well I - I - what had happened was that - after the accident I was taken actually to Chelmsford Hospital. And

when I got home my sister who had trained as a hospital nurse rather than going into one of the services for her

callup in the war. Quite clearly by the Monday morning what they'd done at the Chelmsford Hospital wasn't any

good at all. The whole thing was sort of - coming through the - skin here. It was extremely painful. And she

phoned up the matron at the London Hospital and - and - who arranged for me to go straight up there and see

them. And they kept me in there. Having seen this thing. And sort of - I mean I think if one - had been that

kind of chap you could have sued somebody - a certain amount for not having -

Did that shape your views on the National Health Service?

There wasn't such a thing as the National Health Service.

Just sort of coming in?

Just sort of - in the discussion stage. But anyrate, I only tell that story because I thought it was a marvellous

reaction of - of - Osmond Clark to an ex-serviceman's plight.

How long were you off work as a result of that?

I should think 5 or 6 weeks.

So your trip to France ..?

That was squashed. But by this time - I had established the nucleus of a marine department. And I took on a

splendid chap who had also been a cavalryman in the Third Hussars, as my assistant. Called Philip Flint. Who

was a tower of strength to the company for many years. And who died sadly about l8 months ago. But I always

remember my office which was not anything like as big as this room, about half this room. He and I sat in this

and it was on the way that my uncle used to come - arriving - to get into his office. And he used to open the

door and say "good morning". And I'd say "good morning uncle Dick". And he'd say "you're not writing any

marine risks I hope". And I said "oh no, of course not, nothing like that". But I mean it still - he still

remembered how the marine business had - had - shaken the very foundation of the M & G in its early days.

And - of course we were rescued by the Swiss on that occasion and -

But you were actually writing risks at this point and you had an assistant as well?

I suppose what he meant was that I personally wasn't. And - I wouldn't at that stage have referred any offer of

business to - Charles Calburn or Michael Stewart or one of my superiors. So I was - my conscience was quite

clear in saying that "no I -


Can you remember the first business that you did. The income you earned for the firm?

Well - you see it all happened rather sort of gradually. One would be made offers. It all happened rather

gradually. One would be made offers which you would then discuss with - I had no standing in the company, I

had no title. I can't remember when, but first of all they made me superintendent of the marine department.

And that time - I think - but I think it was made quite clear to me that I had no binding powers to commit the

company to anything - And - it all came rather by degrees. But I mean by this time a portfolio which had an

income of £30,000 a year was beginning to grow.

Any disasters?

Not - nothing out of the - out of the way. Nothing - But funnily enough the sort of disasters that come are

never an individual - disaster. That never seems to - rock the boat too much. It's always a sort of trend. It's

always - If there's a trend in the market which is basically not getting enough premium in for a class of risk

because it's had a good experience for a certain length of time and the shipowners or the cargo shippers have

whittled the rates down. And the basic underlaying mood of the market is wrong. That's what causes disasters.

You need a good sort of accident or a large vessel to sink every now and again do you, to keep the rates up?

To keep the rates up. I mean it's - possibly the best advertisement for British insurance that ever took place was

the l906 San Francisco earthquake. Because it brought very good publicity, a) for the dangers that were inherent

in - in that kind of risk. And b) the fact that the British settled it absolutely on the nail you see, so they got a

very good name for that.

When you became a superintendent and started to have more responsibilities and started indeed hiring staff.

What sort of people did you hire. What were the considerations that you made?

Well it depended very much on the job that you wanted them for. I mean Philip Flint who, as I say, had a good

military background and had been to a good public school and had a good educational background as well, was

really what I wanted to be my deputy as it were. And the next one that we needed apart from purely clerical,

was someone who could deal with accounts. So one went and got an accountant. And the next one one wanted

was another underwriting technical man.

Was there anything that you looked for though in these people. Any qualities?

Oh yes. I mean qualities of presence and of - of - of affability. Of - you know, getting on with people and -

who were prepared to travel. Who - we never had linguists sort of very much in the marine department, which

was probably a drawback. But -

You weren't a linguist?


No. Not a linguist.

I thought that might have encouraged you to hire people who were?

But I think there one tended to rely upon the - those in the company who were. And there were a tremendous

number of linguists who were taken on at all levels. And -

What was travelling like for you. When you took these journeys into Europe for instance. Was that a hardship?

Well it - it was. I mean the primitive state of things was very noticeable. And I think in a way - that had a

certain charm. I mean today if you go to Finland and you wake up in your hotel you might be in Helsinfors?

You might be in Bogatar. You might be - anywhere. They're all the same. But to go to Helsinfors or Helsinki

as they call it, in those days, which I always enjoyed. You got into a DC3 - at London - rather at - not at -

Heathrow, but at - what's the airforce. Northolt. And you flew probably to - I think you could just - I think

there were two stops. I don't know whether it was Copenhagen was the first one. And Stockholm the second

one. And I mean this old - DC3 flapping its way against the wind. And you finally got there.

No inflight movies?

No inflight movies. Very little in the way of inflight service at all. And then you got to Helsinki and probably

the airport was miles away. And you went in in a bus. There was no other - smart way of doing it. And then

you got a taxi from there.

It could be bitterly cold?

Bitterly cold. And you went to the Old Kemp Hotel. Which was where all the - it was full of history of all the

treaties and things that Mannerheim had signed the thing with the Russians and - And I mean it was full of

atmosphere. Full of - fascination at that time. And - and it was the same all over Scandinavia to a relative

degree. And I must say I enjoyed that very much. You made some marvellous friends there. And I found that a

very rewarding - It was quite difficult to get business. And - but any business you got you knew it was pretty

stable and -

Difficult because it didn't exist or because there were so many others after it?

There was a certain amount of competition. There was a lot of competition. But - they hadn't got going yet. I

mean there wasn't very much - expansion. And so - and they weren't really entering into new - the thing didn't

take off for at least another l0 years really. And then once it did start to take off - I personally found myself

doing something else, you know, doing - other - jobs than - merely trying to acquire business.


What happened to your salary. Were you still earning £400 a year?

No. This was where old Philip Waugh was so wise. Because in l8 months time I think the first rise went up to

£700. That was a bit of a help. And then things started to really look up. And of course we moved office

eventually.

From where to where?

Just a little way up the road. We built - the only building that was not so badly damaged that it had to be pulled

down we managed to buy and acquire. And that was prepared. It wasn't entirely suitable. It was in Tenter

Street. Being in the old - the old - wool part of the City, which was totally destroyed by the German bombs.

Tenter Street - were the tenterhooks that you stretched the wool on.

Where is that, in Moorgate?

Just off Moorgate. Very close to Moorgate underground station. It doesn't exist anymore. Because when they

redeveloped that round Britannic House. That disappeared. And so did this building that we did. And we built

another building which is just right beside. And that's where we are now.

But that purchase of the building probably underpinned the company's fortunes?

It did, because when Britannic House was built BP provided us with the site to put this on.

I'd like to ask you about l95l when you met and married your wife. What position were you at at the M & G at

this point?

I think by this time I was probably - an assistant manager. Which was a significant - promotion.

In marine?

Still with - really main responsibility for marine. But actually by now having - developed a broader interest in

fire business and in - more marketing overseas.

What had led you to do that?

Oh, they wanted - I was sort of - told to expand my - widen my horizons.

Were you being groomed for stardom?


I suspect so, yes I think so. Oh yes, I think so. I mean there were several of us in the same - really - field of

activity.

Competitive?

Not really, no. Not - I never felt - too - much that there was - you know, a great deal of competitiveness here.

But did you feel that you had been selected. If you didn't get it wrong it would be alright?

Yes. Not quite like that. I mean there would be many, many people involved in the - who were in a position to

blackball or to - promote ones - advancement. But I mean at this stage the top job was not really in my sights at

all.

What sort of qualities do you think you had at that time?

Well I think I had administrative - ability. I mean one had learnt a lot in the army about administration. And

never been formally taught, but - the nature of ones job as adjutant of a regiment, particularly a regular

regiment, taught one a lot about administration. And setting up a marine department in a commercial company,

with all that had to be done, all the background - I think one had that. I think one also had an ability to get on

with people. And I think that's possibly the - the most important -

Were you a firm manager. Had your army experience made you a firm manager?

I think probably that would be - would be so. Whether that today would be regarded as an advantage I don't

know. I think it was an advantage. And I don't - I wouldn't - regret it.

In the sense that people would not question the manager's decisions or ..?

No, I think people - my philosophy is that the one thing people don't like is uncertainty. They like a firm -

decision and a firm - lead. And if they don't like it then I think they've got to be strong enough to say so and

argue their case. And - I think one's had in life several times to say "well, I don't think this is right and I don't

like it". And then if you're persuaded that you're wrong and they're right, okay. Otherwise if they - if it's

sufficiently important - and then I think you have to be very firm about it.

And you were developing a reputation for firmness?

Difficult to tell. I mean I was at the - other end of the - I mean I think - firmness and flexibility. I mean what

- you've got to draw the line at being too much of either, haven't you.

Tell me about meeting your wife?


Well, this is rather a long story. Because strangely enough - my wife's mother was a Neave. And a Neave who

had been out in New Zealand for many, many years. I mean I suppose - not far short of a hundred years. And

had gone out from the family - home here, not very far from here, near Rumford. And - she came to England in

- l949. She would have come earlier but for two things. One, the war had made foreign currency impossible to

- obtain for travel from New Zealand. And all her sisters had come over before her and done their 'bob' at

Buckingham Palace, you know, as they all did when they were coming out. And when her turn came she was

set off on her way to do a job in America en route to earn the currency, which wasn't otherwise obtainable. And

she had a motor accident which set her back for six months. But then she did finally come and spent a year in

America and arrived in London in about l949. And the first person she came to - visit of course was my

mother, her godmother. Or one of the first people. And - I always remember my mother ringing up to say

"your cousin from New Zealand, Helen Acton-Adams, is coming down for the weekend". And in these days of

petrol rationing she said "if you could catch the same train from - then the same car could meet the two of you".

And I can remember saying to my mother "good God, if she's got herself all the way from New Zealand surely

she can get herself down to Orsett". And my mother said the following week I was ringing up to find out what

train she was catching. So I mean I think it was a fairly - But although we met in l949 - we didn't get engaged

-

Tell me about the meeting?

Well I'd come down from a regimental dinner - with - a brother officer and his wife who were great friends of

mine. And - I think I was feeling fairly jaded.




And - we - I think very quickly saw there was a mutual attraction. And - we were sufficiently distant cousins

not to make really - I mean I should think we must be fourth or fifth - cousins a long way back.

Had you got a girlfriend at that time?

No. No. I mean nothing - at all serious.

But you've told me you were a bit of a deb's delight before the war. Was this still the case after the war?

Well, there was a lot going on. But I must say there was never any sort of - what you might call serious

attachment. I mean -

But you had a flat of your own then?

Yes.

Your grandmother's?

She having died. The Irish maid stayed on. And I had two lodgers which was a splendid arrangement because it

enabled me to afford to live there. And - it was extremely comfortable and very central and all worked very

well. And Sen soon started visiting us there. And -

What do you call her?

Well - Helen she was christened.

The same name as your mother?

Yes. But always known as Sen. Because as a little girl she couldn't say Helen. And so she called herself Sen

and that stuck forever. And - I - was worried about two things. One was my income which was really terribly

small and quite insufficient to support a wife on. And secondly that Sen was going to be able to settle in

England. And although ones inclinations were quite clearly that this was going to be - what one wanted. I was

very nervous of - of - you know, having to - committing ones self too soon and then finding that it was really not

a life that appealed to her at all in this country. And very, very different living in a flat in London to living on a

vast sheep station in New Zealand.

Where was she living in London?


Well, she took flats and things. She lived a fairly - moving - But she had various flats in Kensington and -

and around there.

But not at your flat?

No, no. No. And she took a job at Peter Jones. She was always interested in antique furniture. And she got a

job in the antique furniture department of Peter Jones. And that helped her. And she - well she'd got a lot of

other relations in England. And she was moving around. And her brother came over. And they had a good sort

of tour round. And I think her time passed pretty quickly. And I was very busy at the M & G trying to sort of

establish myself.

And travelling?

And doing a certain amount of travelling. And it wasn't until really the Christmas of '50 that we - we got

engaged. We'd seen a great deal of each other. And - I thought by this time she'd have known whether it was

on or not. And that I remember I'd always said that I wouldn't - get married until I had a thousand a year. And I

did by this time earn a thousand a year.

What did your parents think?

They were delighted. I don't think they had any hesitation at all. And I think they were - really - hoping that it

would take place a little earlier. And that I was rather dragging my feet. Sen thought I was dragging my feet -

Were you?

Well, no, not if you take these two considerations into account. I mean I - was very - concerned on both counts

of finance and her ability or - to settle.

Your father had inherited by now, hadn't he?

He had.

Did you anticipate receiving a lump sum on your marriage?

He did make over a small amount which was a big help. But - that was - you know -

Did you own the flat?

No. The flat - was never owned, the flat. But the rent was very, very low. I mean I think the control of rents

had meant that - I went on paying the same as my grandmother. And so that meant we could afford to have


Margaret the Irish maid, who of course was also not exactly - a very expensive item in those days. She was

quite marvellous.

She lived in?

She lived in. She lived in. Anyrate, we got engaged Christmastime l950. And we were married in April '5l.

On Ansac Day. Which all her New Zealand relations thought that you can't possibly - it's impossible to get

married on Ansac Day. Which is like a sort of Good Friday to them.

Why did you pick that day?

Well, it just sort of worked out. And I mean it's not a holiday here. And her brother came over. And - we were

married. That was slightly peculiar because - the wedding was at my home. And the invitation had to read that

my - parents - were inviting the guests - to the wedding of their goddaughter. To me. So it was one of the more

peculiar invitations. Actually it was a very small wedding. Because I mean she had very few relations here and

didn't really want it to be swamped with all my relations. So I mean I don't think we had more than about 50

people. And it was done in the parish church in the village at Orsett. And - my brother actually was away. My

sister was there. But my brother was away in - in Kenya. Where he was district officer for -

So where did you live after your marriage?

We went back to the flat. I kicked out the lodgers. And kept on Margaret. And - that was really - I didn't know

quite what else to do with Margaret. Because I mean she'd been in the family for a very, very long time.

However, she did in the event eventually go. I think Sen was extremely glad to see her go because it really -

She was in the way in some way was she. She did the cooking and ran the house?

She did. And I mean there was nothing left for Sen to do. Who'd given up her job. But that didn't last for too

long. But it was a very good thing when it did. And I always remember - of course babies start to arrive fairly

quickly. And - when the second -

When did the first one come along?

The first one was born in '52. In May '52 I think it was. In March '52. March '52. And the next one was 2

years later in April '54. And at that time - the flat was no longer bigger enough to have two - babies. And so

we started to - house hunt in Essex. And we found a house about 5 miles from here. In a village called

Kelvedon Hatch, called Kumra Lodge. It had belonged to the aunt of the great cricketer Duleep Sinji. Do you

remember her? She was the Indian Princess of some great - And it was quite a small house. It had about 5

bedrooms. It was very close to the road, which was its big disadvantage. But it had about ll acres which was

quite handy. And -


Did you have staff?

No. We had - dailies used to come in. And - you know, an au pair who helped look after the children. But - I

think that is the story of how -

Two daughters you had?

By that time, yes. Well then we had a third daughter - a little bit later on.

When was that?

I would think that was - '56 or '7. I would have to check it.

Were you keen to have a son?

Yes.

And you tried for a son?

Yes. And the third daughter was hopefully a son. But it wasn't.

In fact your last daughter was born in l958?

That's right.

And you decided to call a halt?

Well -

Dare I put it like that?

I think that was -

You were destined to produce daughters?

Destined - Strangely you see my brother also produced three daughters. And my sister had produced one

daughter. And so when my father was presented with his seventh granddaughter he was absolutely speechless.

He really was I think extremely upset. But -


Did that put a pressure on you, or certainly on your wife?

I don't think so. I think she was entirely philosophical about it. And so was I at that time. I think I regret it

more now than I did then. Not that I have anything against my three daughters who I am devoted to. But - I

think it would be nice now that one's got the sort of leisure, to have had a son to take shooting or to - play golf

with and -

Do you think that has put pressure on your daughters. Have you encouraged them to be tomboys?

I don't think so. But they of course fortunately have got sons. My middle daughter has two. And my youngest

daughter has one, so -

I think it's the man, isn't it, that determines sex?

It's supposed to be entirely the responsibility of the man.

But the women always get blamed for it?

Very unfairly.

So you've established yourself in the home and your family is coming along. What about back at the firm as it

were?

Back at the M & G. Well back at the M & G I think the scene was changing - to some extent. I find at this

stage ones memory of the thing gets really quite sort of hazy. There was so much happening and so much going

on and one's so immersed in it, that one lived really for each individual circumstance and proposition and

problem as it came up. And one should have kept a much more - careful diary than one did. And I find this

very much now that I'm trying to write for the history of the M & G which is coming up. And we've - all of us

have been asked to - put our thoughts down in writing. And I find that at this stage the thing gets really very

hazy. And in trying to write it down I thought the best way to do it is really to divide it up into subject matter.

And - the - way I thought of sub-dividing it up was - there came a time when the M & G started to establish

subsidiaries.

As assistant manager you had a lot of responsibility. Did you start doing things in a different way. Did you

start changing things. Were you making an impact on the firm at this point?

Well, the thing is that the company was changing so fast that I mean it was really a question of - of - adapting

and - controlling. And trying to maintain the organisation during this period of enormously rapid expansion.

But that was a strength and interest of yours, wasn't it?


It was indeed. And - as really second in command to Michael Stewart - one had - a lot of influence. I wasn't

the only one, but I mean he more or less used me as his number two. But there were a lot of other people in - in

important positions. Mostly on the marketing side. And although I had a role in the marketing side, which I can

come on to, it was much more isolated in certain sort of more specific areas, which kept me extremely busy.

But didn't mean that I hadn't got other time to look after the administrative - or help him on the administrative

side as well. He had had a very serious hiccup himself. Inasmuch as he had a drink problem. And -

Were you aware of it?

Oh yes. Oh yes.

In fact as you were the deputy?

I have to make it clear I was only the sort of deputy by - not - in - in a sort of - specific appointed way. The

thing was delightfully flexible in that way. That there were people who all had their - areas of responsibility

under him. But I had an office that was in this new Moorfields House right beside him.

Your own office?

My own office, yes.

And how did the drink problem impact on you?

Well - it - it - impacted only - Charles Calburn really handled this thing. And eventually Michael gave up

drink. But by this time - he gave it up totally. But in due course it caught up with him again and he got cancer

and died. And -

But did this add responsibilities. I mean you had more to do. The burden was greater?

Yes.

A good opportunity in fact?

Oh splendid.

Obviously someone elses misfortune, but nevertheless - ?

So I was saying really the development of the company was so fast and - that - the - one was really concerned

to keep the thing on an even keel and one was adapting and taking on - There was so much to change. I mean


- if you look back at the administrative systems in an office of ones grandfather for example. Or at the time of

my grandfather - I don't think either my - well - But the old system of having a ledger in which you entered

everything, probably lasted generation after generation. I mean I can remember at least three totally different

systems being introduced in the time that I was in the

M & G. I mean the ledgers were still being kept by hand when I first joined. Then they produced a new

punchcard system of controlling everything, called Powers Sellers? And then the computer started to come in.

Well all those changes were very - important ones to live with.

Were you enthusiastic about the move from ledger to punchcard?

Well it really didn't involve me very much. I mean decisions were made at a quite different level to mine. And

- but they all had to be learnt. And everything one did had to be geared to meet their requirements. And I think

it puts a very big strain on any organisation which is having its sort of basic admin structure changed as often

and as quickly as the recent generations have had to cope. Whereas their forebears had one system that was

ingrained in the whole thing and it - it worked. And I think that took up a tremendous amount of energy of any

corporation or any company. And -

Do you think that was harmful?

No. In the long term it was beneficial because the scale of the business got to where you could not have

accommodated or recruited enough people to handle it manually. There was no way in which it could have been

handled manually on the old system. So what would have happened I don't know, if the computer hadn't been

invented.

Do you think you were a relatively forward thinking man?

Oh, I think very much so.

Is this because it was a relatively new industry as well?

I think that's possibly it. And I think of course always the systems of a reinsurer have to adapt to the systems of

the direct insurer. That his source of all his business is the direct insurance market. And so his methods have to

reflect and adapt themselves to be compatible.

And were they changing?

Of course they were. Of course they were.

Why?


Well I think like everything else it was getting too cumbersome to do it all by hand. And I think it's going to

change a great deal more in the future too. And I mean since I retired five years ago you go back to the office

now and all the computer systems are different. And every manager has a thing on his desk which -

But you have embraced those changes yourself quite enthusiastically?

I think very much so. I mean I think there are management aids which are very - beneficial.

What do you think was the next significant development in your own career at M & G?

Well it was not sort of step by step so much as sort of coming in at the same time. And we decided that - to

handle the expansion we needed to have subsidiary companies. For example the business was getting - the first

one was in Canada. Was of a sufficient size where it needed to be handled on the spot. And the expansion that

was likely to take place would be much more natural if it was done in Canada and not from London.

Were you involved in that?

And I got sort of caught up very much in this. And - the - this is something which I would be very interested to

discuss my experiences in Canada.

You went to Canada?

I spent - my wife and I both went to Canada. We spent the best part of six months there.

Setting up the ..?

Well - our role was not a technical one really. It was more a PR one. To try and establish - But I can tell you

all about that.

Can you tell me about that. Why did you go to Canada?

Well, I was asked if I would do it. We had a management there by this time. The secretary had been over there

and you had to get the laws passed through parliament. And the Canadian parliament. And the thing had to be

actually - you know - created. And then having got something that was functioning it then needed to be put on

the map as it were. It was on the map so far as the insurance industry was concerned. But in the wider context

of Canadian - life - and Canadian activity, the M & G needed to have a board of directors that were influential

people. That it was seen to be - an image which was going to be beneficial to - to its future.

And why you. Why did you go there?


Charles Calburn asked me - to do it. And I think he thought presumably that I would be of the material, he'd got

the best person to do this.

Did that leave a hole in the UK?

Well it did, but by this time it was - the thing was sufficiently - that the holes could be filled. It was only six

months. And actually it wasn't quite as much as that, it was - August to Christmas. I think it was about five

months.

And did you come back to the same position that you had left?

Oh yes. It was always understood that I would.

Can you tell me about why you decided as a company to go to the colonies so to speak. And why you were

picked to do it?

Well I think that reinsurance above anything else is a very personal business. And the relationships that are

established are very personal ones. And the business had grown to a stage where it was difficult to maintain the

sort of personal contacts from London that we needed to maintain throughout the entire world. And - but of

course it was an expensive business to establish yourself overseas. And so it was done step by step. As the

business developed sufficiently in any one place so the decision was taken that the time had come to really -

establish ones self locally and service the business that you already were servicing from London, to transfer that

function into the local arena.

Were you part of the process that decided that should come about?

Well - in a fairly sort of junior way. But I think it was a - a general management and a board decision much

more than any decision of mine. But of course inasmuch as one had been to any of these places - and I had not

actually been to Canada, but I had to the other places. No doubt ones opinion was sought. But in the case of

Canada I think that was essentially had another purpose too which was to develop a dollar asset in the event of

the cold war hotting up. Or - a dollar asset at those times was a very useful thing to have. And I can't

remember exactly all the exchange control regulations that there were at that time, but it was possible to

establish a local company with the right kind of permission. And in that way one would create in due course a

dollar asset. And there were also inflationary aspects to this. But basically I mean the philosophy was to better

service the existing business and have a better prospect of increasing their business from local representation.

May I just ask you about this dollar asset. Are you saying that this was a way of getting around exchange

controls?

No. It was perfectly legal.


What was the purpose of having a dollar asset?

Well, hard currency was - very much a sort of - a necessity for developing business. And if one had dollar

assets they were useful in all sorts of ways. And any dollar assets we had we had to repatriate because it was

business done from here. And there was no way of accumulating the dollar assets unless you had an

establishment overseas. Which of course was still quite severely controlled. But -

And these profits that you made in say Canada weren't taxed in the UK, they were taxed locally?

Taxed locally.

And you could keep the dollars there?

And you could keep the dollars there. Within limits. I can't remember, as I say, exactly what the exchange

control stipulations were. But of course there were very strict regulations in Canada too. And an act of

parliament was necessary to establish the company. And that presented problems. And my role - I don't want to

give the impression that my role was the crucial one. It wasn't. I mean to get the law passed in Otawa was

something which the secretary of the company, Dick Richmond, went over and spent a lot of time doing that.

And the actual establishment of the company was put in the hands of - an appointed person here who we had

known in the business because he had been the manager of a company that was a seeding company of ours and

his name was Don Barnard.




And so the company had been set up in the sense that it existed with Don Barnard in charge of it. And there was

a secretary there whose name I remember was Carson. And it was established in one of the upper floors of

Barclays Bank in - Bay Street, Toronto. And it had a board - which was - the chairman was the senior partner

of a big law firm. And his name was Mossy Hike. Who was one of the Huguenot settlers who came up to

Canada from the States at the time of the - when - the colonial problems there. And -

And they were in place when you got there?

They were in place when I was asked to go out. And the reason I was asked to go out by Calburn was to really -

as he put it, the company's there, it's got a sort of legal status, it's functioning. But it hasn't really got much of a

presence in the market. It needs to have some more active - image of - it being - with some status.

Why wouldn't they try and engage somebody locally to do that?

Well that's what I was sent out to do.

To find someone?

To find someone. And I had an extraordinary piece of luck there. I mean this is cutting a long story short. It

took quite a long time and I can tell you all sorts of - of - of incidences on the way to it. But - it so happened

that the block of flats in - the actual flat in the block which I found to establish my wife and myself, was in fact

tenented by a very well known English general who had commanded the Eighth Army called General Sir Neil

Ritchie. And I'd served under him, not in the desert but in Holland, when he had - he was relieved of command

of the Eighth Army. The history will probably now have been forgotten. And then he came back to the UK and

was made corp commander of Twelve Corp, which - and I can talk a lot about it. It is irrelevant to this. And he

landed, this corp landed in Holland. And then moved towards the - the German frontier at the time of the

liberation of Holland which was a long and drawn out and rather difficult time. And at that time my regiment

had come under his command and I met him - enough to, you know, have known him. But he wasn't living in

his flat in Toronto because he'd gone on business for quite a period, for four or five months I think, to Montreal.

And - he was working at that time for a very big firm of insurance brokers. His story was that he'd married a

Canadian girl and she didn't want to live in Europe, she wanted to live in Canada. He had been - his last job in

the army was head of the joint chiefs of staff in Washington. And so he moved up to Canada, looked for a job

and found a job with this very big American broker firm called Marsh McLennon?

It's still a big company today. Even bigger?

Even bigger.


Did you think of offering him the job?

Well, what happened was that it struck me that with his insurance connections - and I had discovered a little

about this when I was in Toronto - he might be just the person. And I went up to Montreal and without any

introduction to him or looking for him, found him by chance in St James's Club where I was being taken for

lunch one day. And I remember going up to him and saying to him "General Neil, you won't remember me, but

I served under you in Holland". And he said "wait a minute - I can't remember your name, but you were in the

l3th l8th Hussars and you had a brother and you were either the adjutant or you were commanding B Squadron".

And it was remarkable. And I said "well I was the adjutant and my name is Neave". "Oh", he said, "yes,

nephews of my very great friend Charles Miller. General Charles Miller". And so I said to him "well General,

what are you doing here in Canada". And he explained how his wife was Canadian. And he said "I'm working

for a -" - to use the vernacular - "a bloody great American insurance thing". And so I sort of - we went on

chatting and it was quite obvious that he didn't enjoy this.

What sort of job would it be. Would it be a slightly lowly job for such a high powered man?

I would think so. I would think it was some representational job.

They liked having a general on the staff?

His contacts would bring in business was the idea. And I think he found it, you know, a bit of a - a strain.

But he was an Englishman?

Scotsman. In the Black Watch.

Whereas you'd gone out to hire a local?

But he was living there. He was very much established there. He was colonel of the Black Watch of Canada.

And he was a very - very well known in Canada. Very well known in Canada. So I said to him "well what

about working for an English company". And he said "it would suit me down to the socks".

This was subsequently the lunch meeting?

Yes, at a further meeting. And I said "I've got no brief to make any appointments. But if you would think of

acting as president of the company under an executive - I mean over an executive vice president and under a

chairman, how would that be". Anyrate, we didn't go into very many details. But when I got back - this - was

how it all came about.

How did you feel about approaching your ultimate commanding officer?


Well I mean -

And how did he feel about having you offer him a job?

I don't think there were any feelings. I mean it was a sort of - it seemed a very natural process to me anyway.

But he wouldn't be working for you anyhow. The roles weren't being reversed?

No, no. No, no, no, no. There was no sort of feeling of that kind - in any way. But - you asked for sort of

personal recollections. And I remember very well that my wife and I had a problem going out, because our

youngest child - daughter - was less than a year old. And it was the question of what to do with her. And we

couldn't really leave her - take her with us. But my parents said that they would have her if we produced a full

time professional nanny to look after her. So this was arranged.

What about the older two. They were to come with you?

No, we only had the one. This was our first born. Penelope. So she was left in the charge of a very starchy -

professional Scotch nanny at my parents house at Orsett in Essex. And we set off in the Queen Mary. Which

was - I think - was it the Queen Mary or was it - no, I think actually it was the old first QEl. And I always

remember, Charles Calburn had a great friend who was Barclays Bank representative in New York. And in

those Barclays weren't allowed to do any banking business in New York, they were only allowed to be

representational as it was called. And Charles said he would ask this chap to meet us in New York. And I can

remember saying to him "well I mean it's jolly kind, but surely we can manage to get off the boat and get to our

hotel". And he said "well, this is something that Barclays do, don't turn it down now, I'll organise it for you".

And my goodness we were grateful. Guy Meake? as his name was, turned out to be a marvellous chap.

What was the difficulty that you might otherwise have had?

Well - the - tremendous amount of bureauocracy if you like, of getting in and out of the States at that time. I

mean it took hours. They had immigration people coming aboard as soon as you docked and you all had to go

through the most frightful degree of detailed investigation and whether you were communists and all this sort of

stuff. And - and it took hours of - And then you had to go through all the customs and we had a lot of

luggage, because we were going to be there for five months. And - then we had to get on to the train to go up to

Toronto. The night train up to Toronto. And we had so much luggage that nobody thought that - it was, you

know, it was all very - difficult. And he arranged all this most marvellously for us. And he showed us New

York, we saw New York for the first time. And he said "first of all I'm going to take you to the Rockafella

Centre and see the Rockettes. It's like going to Buckingham Palace and seeing them change the guard". And it

was really - he was terribly kind and we had a marvellous two days on the way up to Toronto.


May I ask how you believe your wife felt about leaving the child behind?

I think she felt that she had to do it. But I don't think she wanted or liked doing it at all.

Why couldn't you take her with you?

Well - at that age I don't think - it's probably something that one would do now, but at that time it didn't enter

into our calculation.

I just recall your sadness at seeing your parents leave you behind when they went to Ireland?

Yes. Well - that was the way it was.

But did you reassess your view of your father and mother leaving you behind as they had done, when you

realised that perhaps that that is a pattern that ambitious young people might follow?

It was all too late then. Anyrate, we arrived in Toronto. And I must say that was quite a shock. I'd always been

told - it's really very funny - I mean you want this sort of anecdotal stuff. Michael Stewart who was my

immediate boss in the M & G, his brother Gavin Stewart, who was a big man in Stewarts and Lloyds, which had

a big business in Canada, in Toronto. And another chap I'd had an introduction to, whose name was David

Dumbreck, who worked for Anthony Gibbs, who was chairman of the M & G. He was a partner in them. I had

introductions to them. But I always remember Gavin Burton Stewart saying to me "you need a pair of asbestos

gloves if you're going to walk down Bay Street and meet anybody you know". And this was borne out, which

was really very funny. David Dumbreck also had Mossy Hike as chairman of his small subsidiary of Anthony

Gibbs. And I was walking down Bay Street with him one day and he suddenly crossed the street. And so I

went with him. And I said "why on earth did you suddenly cross the street". He said "well I saw Mossy Hike

coming up the other way and he's your chairman and my chairman and if he'd seen us and said good morning

boys, how are you, or how's everything going. Fine thank you Mossy, everything's going well. Good he said,

well I'm very glad to hear it. He said there'd have been a 50 dollar fee put on the bill". And so I learnt quite

early what Gavin Stewart meant by needing asbestos gloves. It was a fairly rough place. And it was very

different to what it is now. Very different. The old - we were made members of two clubs. The Hunt Club

down on the foreshore. And the Toronto Club. Which were very English creations and very comfortable and

very nice. And we used to go there a certain amount. And the Toronto show was really marvellous -

Were you feted in some way. Were you looked after?

No, no. We just had introductions to people. And once you had introductions you got invited to these things.

There was no sort of - I was nobody to fete. I mean I was a very junior chap.

Did they like to hear about Britain at all?


Oh yes, they did. Oh, they were very - we had a lot of fun. And PR was part of our job, we did a lot of

entertaining of the clients, to sort of try and get the thing - Barnard was a very dour Midland chap who - And

Carson was even more dour. And there was very little spark in the organisation at that time.

Did you feel that they might have to go at some point?

No, it wasn't really - They were technicians. And what it needed was a sort of more - sparky image. But - as

- we had a lot of fun in Toronto. Which in fact was a very dull place in those days. I mean it was known as

'Toronto the good'. And 'Montreal the gay'. I mean it was - we went up to Montreal and we made a lot of

friends there too, which was part of the object. And - the time we spent was - was fun.

And you took about five months or so to get everything in position?

Yes.

And what had happened to the general. He had come back for an interview and then returned to become

president?

Not while I was still there. Nothing really happened until I got back. Because it was - you know, one had to

paint the picture and get the whole scene sort of in ones mind as to how the thing was going to develop. There

were a lot of people there who were very helpful. Also on the board and who was also a partner in the Hike law

firm was a Brigadier Wotherspoon Known as Swotty Wotherspoon. Who had a very charming wife called

Maggie. And Swotty only died last year. And we kept in touch with him in the sense that he came over

regularly. He left and went to be secretary of Etons the big store. And I think that - she, Maggie, was connected

with the family.

Why was he called Swotty?

Goodness knows, it was one of these -

Did you have a nickname?

No. Jules I think is probably the nearest. But - anyrate, they were all very helpful to get one round to meet

people outside the business. Very important not to be just entirely in the narrow reinsurance. You had to get the

broader aspect if you could of what was going on there.

What was your opinion. Did you see it as a good market for the firm?


Bound to be, a developing market. But it had one very big drawback from our point of view. Which was the

business was all controlled by brokers and intermediaries. Nobody went direct to the insurance company. They

all always in American system too went through an intermediary. And our business was still at that time very

purely non broker business. And - it had quite a few problems that. But we gradually one way and another

managed to overcome this.

Because it was difficult for you to approach the clients directly without upsetting the brokers?

Well reinsurance was - was not quite so tightly controlled. That gave us the - the loophole. But the whole

attitude to underwriting was - one of - of - the intermediary had a very big role to play. And that did create

some complications. But - the - company when we came back was still in shape very much as we left it. But -

The head office in London?

No, in Toronto. It didn't change very much there at that time. But -

What was the reaction to your trip. Were you thought to have done well?

Well I think I'd done what I was asked to do. Which was to find someone who could hit the thing up in a more

representational way. And I think Neil Ritchie then - stayed with the company for - over 20 years. In various

capacities. As president, chairman and - and -

In Canada?

In Canada. And he always lived in Canada. He died about 3 years ago. And his widow Sunny is still alive.

But tell me about your return. Was it a triumphant return?

Oh no. No, I think they were very pleased. And of course naturally then when the next venture came up some

time later, Charles Calburn asked me to go on my own this time.

Without your wife?

Without my wife.

Why?

Well because it was going to be - much more moving about. Rather a different role. I wasn't asked to do - as

much of - just really size up the situation as to where we were likely to go in Australia. And what - the future

was to be and how we were to do it. We had - a biggish business there. And what was to become of it.


Why are you travelling in the Commonwealth, the colonies so to speak?

Well partly because I didn't speak languages. And partly because it was the natural place for a British company

to develop. And partly because the volume of the business which we had now needed to be looked at in a

different way. And it was interesting that an enormous number of companies solved first of all their dollar

problem. And then they looked round in Australia. It was nearly always the next port of call. But we had a lot

of business there anyway which had been built up over quite a long time. Quite a few people had travelled in

Australia before - I went there. I mean it was not by any means virgin soil to the

M & G. But -

May I ask you a technical question. From time to time there would be a disaster no doubt as must happen and

the firm would be obliged to pay out large sums of money. Now would it be sometimes impossible for the local

Canadian or Australian, New Zealand operation to actually fund those?

Oh yes. Oh yes, there was a connection you see, another - what you call a retrosession? I mean relationship

between the subsidiary and the parent company, so that we supported their operations totally.

So whilst you could have a dollar asset, in theory it could be quite a drain on the company if something went

wrong?

If something went wrong, absolutely.

Did anything go wrong in Canada?

Oh it did. I mean it took a long time to get on a sufficiently broad base to generate enough investment income,

and, you know, all the things that go with successful insurance operations, or reinsurance operations. One of the

things that helped of course, and has helped everywhere in the M & G, was having a basic life business. And

the life business was something which from a marketing point of view followed so often from having general

business. You had general business and then you were able to offer life business as well. And then the life

person would go out and arrangement would be made. And the life business which of course is very long term

does generate financial investment income and - and generally speaking - gives you a sort of broader base. And

- but we had very little life business in Australia funnily enough at that time. And that was because there was a

traditional - acceptance of the fact that the British would dominate the general business, and there were very few

big general Australian insurance companies. And they would leave the life field to the Australians, who had

some very big companies like the AMP and the Colonial Mutual and the National Mutual. Quite a lot. Very

big. But - we had very little. We had a little bit, but very little. Anyrate, we had quite a lot of general business.

And - I went out to really see - what the right way to go was. And I had a marvellous time. And the first time I

went out was for about 3 months. To get to know people. The M & G already had a number of friends there to

whom I had an introduction. But I also had another piece of very good luck inthat an old aunt, or rather much


more a cousin, but she was always known as - well she was a cousin really. Called Peggy Bridges. Had

established herself in Sidney. I mean she lived in England. And her husband. I don't think he was actually

Australian, but he had a lot of Australian - affairs. Business. And they spent a lot of time going to and fro. But

she was very much a sort of socialite and she knew everybody in Sidney. And at that time in the sort of mid-

50's, it was quite a small place and a very, very different place to what it is now. I mean there were still - drink

laws were very strict. And the 5 o'clock swill was still going on. There were no new Australians. They were all

- English speaking - Australian stock. There were a few Chinese.

How did you find them and how did they find you?

Oh, mostly entertaining. They're tremendous fun. I mean their two outstanding characteristics are their humour

and their optimism. Their humour makes them the greatest fun to be with. And their optimism makes them

extremely difficult to do business with. They always say "she'll be right". It's their great motto. And you'll say

you don't quite see how you think she's going to be right when it looks as bad as this. "Oh", they say, "she'll be

right". So they're great fun to be with.

What do you think they thought of you. An English gentleman coming out to tell them what was what?

Well, I never got the Pommy bastard approach I must say. I got on with them very well. And enjoyed them

very much indeed. And it became quite obvious to me that we had to have a subsidiary in Australia. And a

subsidiary that was to be as Australian as we could possibly make it. Because they do have a certain sort

chauvanistic approach, or certainly did then. But it was also clear that the new Australian was going to arrive in

large quantities, the immigrants from Southern Europe and from - all over the place, were going to make a very

big impact quite soon on Australia. And it would be very difficult to keep pace with the changes from London.




All of which meant that we needed to, in my opinion, establish ourselves there - in a permanent form.

How were you communicating with head office back in London?

Well, one tended not to - do it on a day to day basis. But it was done on the basis of reports which one wrote

and sent back and - But one didn't expect anything to happen until one got back and discussed the thing and

had it all - you know, thrashed out.

Who did you discuss it with when you came back?

Well, with Charles Calburn, with the general manager. Who was the chap in charge really I mean of - of

everything. He was the chief executive and -

And you were a sort of floating ambassador?

That's right. I think by now I mean I was - it was sink or swim. I mean if one didn't produce the goods you

wouldn't have been asked to do it again. But - it enabled me through my various introductions I had to get hold

of the marvellous lawyer who took charge of the - I mean I knew that once he got the go ahead from London

that we were going to form the company, that he would do what had to be done. I made the contacts with

people who would, you know, be useful for the board. Which was also very important. And - finally I found

someone who I thought would be the right chap to be the chief executive. And all this would take time because

if they agreed to form the company and to have this chap as a chief executive, he had to come over here and be

trained for quite a long time. I mean it was something then. We'd have to send out somebody from here who

would be deeply - understanding of our policies and our philosophy and our approach.

Were you ever considered yourself for those jobs?

I think I could have had it if I'd wanted it, but I didn't want it. It would have been too limited and - and - no, I

wouldn't have wanted to - make my life in Australia. Much as I liked Australia, much as I liked them. And

tremendous fun that I had there.

You were away for some 3 months?

About that. And then the following year went out again, this time with my wife. And was there for about the

same length of time.

With your daughter?


No. No. No.

How were they feeling, do you think, about you going away and leaving them for periods?

Well, I think probably the eldest one suffered more than the others. I think when - But it was something they

had to get used to because it was going on all the time. But it was never for very long. I mean 3 months was the

longest.

Did they ever talk to you about it?

No, they haven't really. I think it was more - it manifested itself in sort of subconscious ways rather than -

But -

What of your wife. How did she feel about bringing up young children?

Well of course I think she found it difficult. But I think she decided that it was more important for them that she

should support me and my career should succeed, than the temporary problems that would be created by her

absence from them.

She was supportive was she?

Very supportive. Very. And - I think - that it was the right thing. We did get - you mustn't think from what I

say that this was sort of solo, single handed. It wasn't at all. It was - it was a lot of teamwork here. And a lot

of people involved. And a lot of people had a crucial hand in getting the thing going. But at anyrate, we had a

setback. The first chairman we wanted was a chap called Alec Osborne. Who had been in the government. I

think he had been minister of air - And he died. And had considerable - it took quite a long time to find

somebody else. We had various false starts. We then got a very - sound chap who wasn't the easiest of men, as

chairman, called Greg Cater.

An Australian?

Australian. Who was subsequently knighted. And he was a banker. And very deeply involved in agriculture

too. But he was essentially a City man. But with family - big family - sheep - stud sheep farms in central New

South Wales. And he was chairman of the Commercial Banking Company of Sidney. Which funnily enough

was - the London end of it was run by a cousin of mine, Sam Guinness. And so I had an introduction there

because we used them as our bankers too. And so we got to know Greg Cater? The general manager was a

remarkable, typical, typical Australian, called Owen Taylor. And his life was sad because he - to say he went

off the rails would be - probably not all that inaccurate. But at the time that he was establishing the company

for us and he was still with us, he did a superb, because he was one of those very extrovert Australians who are -


not so rare in their own country, but it's the type that you don't meet very much over here. Anyrate, he was very

successful for us.

Was he difficult to control?

Fairly difficult to control, but we got on extremely well together he and I, and his wife and my wife got on very

well. The broadest possible Australian accent and - But - it's a very long story all that -

May I ask you what particular qualities you were looking for for these senior appointments. Men who would be

in more senior positions than you would be at the time?

Yes. Well in the case of the chairman of the company who wanted to figure in the City, who was obviously

respected and - and - When you choose a reinsurer you look at his balance sheet and you look and see who the

directors are. And that's a very good guide as to the quality of the company. If they're internationally or

certainly in Australia widely known and - and what he stands for and all this. But his part in the technical

running of the business is pretty well nil. But you need someone who can control the financial side, who can

understand the investment side and guide the company generally and be the sort of person of last resort in the

company's affairs. For your chief executive you look for someone who is technically sound. But who is

persona grata with everyone, because our clients can only be other insurance companies, and so it must be

somebody who is acceptable to the market as a whole, who is liked, who is trusted, who will be trusted

sufficiently for clients to give him their business. And then to be able to control it and to underwrite it, and

create the right atmosphere and fix the right conditions.

But did you feel you had to like them as well?

Who your clients.

The person you are looking for or recommending?

That's rather a good question. I mean I think it so happened that the chairman, Greg Cater, was quite a difficult

man to like. But he was a very tough, very sound - very straight and - and his integrity was - was -

What made him difficult for you to like?

Well - just wasn't one of those very outgoing - people. I didn't dislike him, but not like - Owen Taylor was

different. I mean he came from a different level of society to start with. He was a much more outgoing person.

I liked him very much.

What sort of level of society do you mean?


Well I mean Greg Cater was a patrician by anybody's standards. I should think - Owen Taylor came from what

we would call 'lower middle class'. But then the company gradually acquired - The technician we sent out

from here who became assistant general manager, was called Bill Heap. He was a very solid citizen. And he

did a great deal of work, good work.

Was it easy to find people in London to go out?

Well, not so easy because Charles Calburn tended to say "if you go out it's a life sentence. I mean you've got to

make up your mind. Do you want to go. And if you want to go you've got to stay". And I think that the people

we did find with that philosophy were super. But it was - it did put off some people who - We've changed that

rather now. I mean - But - where do we want to go from here?

I'm interested to know about your relationship with these people that you are recommending for positions of

responsibility overseas. Were you thinking that one day they may be working for you, bearing in mind that you

were being groomed for the big job?

Oh, not at all. I mean I didn't know I was being groomed. I hoped I was. But I mean I didn't - I had no - I

was no heir apparent or - heir presumptive of any sort or kind. I mean it was very much an open race as far as I

was concerned as to who got to the top. I was only trying to create a subsidiary which fulfilled my

understanding of what was needed.

But did you get it wrong. Did you pick somebody who turned out to be quite wrong?

Well - I think - later on Owen Taylor did go wrong. But he left us and he left us because he felt that he'd now

got the company established. And he was offered, by an American company, an amazingly - good offer. Which

like so many of ones experiences of these American offers, was very attractive at the time. But which never

really fulfilled itself. And he bitterly regretted having left us. And he took to the bottle. And he died. But he

did do the one thing which - which is the first requirement of any chief executive, which is that he had found

and trained and produced a quite excellent successor. Who is still there with the company. And who is an

Englishman, but who had gone out to Australia with a Lloyds background and had been in Australia for quite a

substantial number of years. Had married an Australian girl and who was - who came from a distinctly better

background in social terms than Owen came from himself. And who has been a tremendous success. And who

has built up the company - in his time.

You have been to Australia at this point. You have been to Canada?

The next one was South Africa. And - there again we had - a very good business which was all done from

London. And the - soundness of the business and the - size of it had got to the stage where we had to seriously

consider what was going to happen. And here we had a slight problem in as much as we'd always had to deal

with the Swiss wherever we went. Whether it was in Canada or Australia or - South Africa. Because they were


always thinking in exactly the same way as we were. And although they were a substantial shareholder in the M

& G, and in fact had the voting powers, their policy and ours was inclined to be very similar, and we had to be

careful not to tread on their toes. And we got to Australia first. And so we went to Sidney which we thought

was better. And they got there second and they went to Melbourne. Where we only had a branch. And - then -

in Canada it was slightly different. We were both in Toronto. Because there wasn't really any alternative. And

it never created too much friction there. In South Africa they were in Johannesburg and they were the first

people to go there by quite some time. And so we felt that we had to go to Capetown. And there was a very

good chap in the accident department, called Dudley Catley. And he went out to sort of size the thing up in

rather the same way as my first visit to Australia. And then I went out with him to really - get a second opinion.

And I entirely agreed with him that we should establish ourselves in Capetown in the circumstances and have a

branch in Johannesburg. In fact we had a lot of life business and the chap we appointed to be the chief

executive was an actuary and a life man who is still there, called Anthony Hart. And so it worked very well.

But would you have preferred to have been in Johannesburg?

Johannesburg is much more the business centre. But we overcame that by having a big branch there and the -

the man who was the boss man on the general side was stationed there.

Was there pressure from the Swiss to stay out?

No, there wasn't. Not really, no. And if they had we'd have said "well we are in Capetown. Our head office is

in Capetown". Which was quite true. So I mean it was - it was one of those - little bit of armed neutrality there.

How long were you away this time?

That was a much shorter time. Although one included - I remember going up to Rhodesia and Zimbabwe and -

and that sort of thing. But there again we had to - find a board and - and - that seemed to fall to my -

recommendation.

How did you find your time in South Africa?

I loved it. Again it was fascinating. Again I was very lucky. And this is another anecdote. Another Guinness

cousin called Bobs Guinness had a very big business at that time in Capetown. In the wool business. And he'd

been the - when South Africa was still in the Commonwealth he'd been - in the wartime he'd been commissioner

for wool - whatever that meant, he was the controller of the wool business in South Africa. And he lived outside

Capetown. And I remember when I first went out - and I was on my own then. I may have misled you because

Catley wasn't with me at that time. But I think - I can't remember quite at what stage the company was,

whether it was established or whether - But at anyrate - he sent his car to the hotel that I was staying in,

because the Mount Nelson was full and you couldn't get in there. And he said "this isn't an invitation, I've sent

the car to come and stay with me". And I was very lucky because it was - he lived in a big house in the suburbs.


He was a very - influential person. He had a lot of racehorses and his wife was very keen on racing. And a lot

of friends. We played a lot of tennis and some golf. And I met an enormous number of influential Capetown

people of the sort of - There was a huge population of English ex-patriots and people who had been in India.

And one of them, a fellow called Philip Clarabutt?, seemed to me to be ideal. He was - he'd been in India in the

firm of Shaw Wallis - a suitable chairman.

An army man?

No. He was an Indian merchant in the firm of Shaw Wallis. And - so that was established. And then Miles

Sifridge was another one who was a great friend of Bobs Guinness. And he joined the board. And then there

was - eventually there was a chap who is now chairman, called Jan De Graff. Who is brother of the leader of the

opposition. Sir deVilliers De Graff. They were all people of influence and importance in South Africa. And

that's very necessary in establishing a sort of financial service, a local company. As I say, the people look at the

balance sheet and they say "oh, this company is alright, it's got the right people on the board".

So what sort of impact upon the home company was the setting up of these overseas businesses having?

Well it was quite a strain on our resources to - staff them with a nucleus of - of trained people. To keep that

expertise and technical knowledge topped up as it were. And of course financially you had to give them the

original capital and then you - as the thing succeeded you have to keep the reserves in the solvency margins and

have to be met. And for the initial period there is a lot of money being pumped in before you start getting

dividends. And it's quite interesting. And long before I retired the subsidiaries were all of them substantially

bigger than the M & G I first joined in l938. Substantially bigger.

And profitable?

And broadly profitable. But - reinsurance is - is - is always going in its dips and its cycles. But oh yes, very

profitable.

And when did you return to stay in England?

Well one never did you see. I mean one was always travelling round. And - the other subsidiary which I was

involved in - but by this time I was managing director, or general manager anyway - was America.

Before we come to that, you are far from being the managing director at this stage?

I am still assistant manager. I may have been a manager by now. And I had - Michael Stewart had died. And I

really was responsible for the fire department. And we had a sort of - it was a difficult organisation in a way,

because the important people in the business were always travelling. Fitzgerald who looked after the Far East,

India, the Arab world, the Japanese, the Philipinnes and all those. He spent a great deal of the time not here at


all. Travelling and developing the business out there. Euan Park, who was a similar - similarly extremely

senior and important, would spend his time in France and Italy, South America.

And what was the significance of that?

Well they were - representing the company and servicing the clients and bringing in new business. And then it

would be handled in the technical departments. Because although they may perhaps have been particularly

trained in the case of Fitzgerald - he was particularly trained in life business. In the case of Park he was

particularly trained in fire business. As was Warrener. But I mean the proposition that they may have had to

deal with was - perhaps a marine one. So it had to come and be processed in London by the marine experts to

see whether it was a proposition that we could accept or not.

Let's take up the career back in London when you are a manager. Now is that an exalted position?

Well in those days it was much more nearer the top than it would be now. Because it really went - from being

general manager - We may have had - a couple of assistant general managers - And then manager, assistant

manager and the sort of superintendent. That was the hierarchy.

Give me an idea of what life was like for you as a manager in the company itself. Can you remember your

office for instance?

Oh yes. Very near to where we're sitting in a different building, which has since been pulled down. But it

would be a very comfortable office.

On your own?

On my own. And one had a very - One of the things Calburn did when we moved from 25 Moorgate to Tenter

House, which was the only building sufficiently undamaged by the war to be worth repairing, was he established

a most marvellous dining room. A very high class dining room indeed. And he got as the chef a remarkable

man - who - in fact had started life in the navy. And then after the first war had been axed. He'd gone out to

Canada where he'd been a mounted policeman. And he then went out to Kenya where he'd been a white hunter.

And he'd had a farm there which went bust. And Christopher Hammond-Spencer who'd always been a great -

very keen on cooking, decided that this was the moment to put his hobby to his profession. And the very first

job he had Charles Calburn appointed him to being - to being the chef here.

A well connected chef?

Certainly, yes. But his - reputation rapidly got round not only the City but all our clients round the world. And

lunch at Moorfields House was very significant - and still is. And we've had two chefs since then. One was a

German called Siggie Willoft? Who in fact had been the private chef for an Opal family. And when he got to


70 - I was in the chair by that time - and I remember him saying that he wanted to retire. And I said "well you

can retire when you've found someone who's good enough to take your place". And he eventually found the

chap we have now who in fact came from Buckingham Palace. But anyrate, that's another story. So life in the

office included an extremely good lunch at midday.

Do you enjoy your food and your wine?

Oh yes. I mean certainly. Very much. But - life was very busy because one had visitors coming from all over

the world all the time. And you had - various market associations and responsibilities and problems. And - I

don't know how much detail you want to go into.

What sort of involvement were you having with your other managers in terms of running the business?

Oh well, a lot. One had conferences and discussions certainly several times a week with them all.

Did you feel that you had particular strengths that your colleagues perhaps didn't have?

I don't - well I don't think so. I mean one by this time had a lot of experience of dealing with people. I mean not

only - as a soldier, but as - in the office. And of course one had been in the office all the time. I mean I'd never

done anything else, so one knew everybody and -




You've told us about the time you spent in the Commonwealth countries. What about Europe, were you doing

much travelling in Europe?

Yes. This had really started before the Commonwealth journies. Before I went off on these - more - empire

travels and to break one into travelling as a reinsurer, I had spent a lot of time in Scandinavia. The first journey

with Michael Stewart. And we spent I suppose all of three weeks travelling through Norway, Sweden, Finland

and Denmark. And it became a territory which was my responsibility to develop and to look after our

connections there and generally speaking to expand our business. And this was something that I much enjoyed

and did for a long time. Visiting I suppose twice a year. I found them delightful but very different, the

Norwegian being very different from the Swede. And the Fin being different from any of them. And the Dane

being quite different again. And - that - was a very enjoyable time and it went on for quite a long time. And at

roughly the same period I was given Holland to develop. I think because like Scandinavia it was English

speaking or at least nobody expected you to even attempt to speak Dutch. And I became very fond of the Dutch

and I enjoyed building up the business there. And that was all very good experience. Also did quite a bit in

Germany because Germany - not as much as the others, but - Germany was basically English speaking too.

And -

Was this mainly marine work?

No, by this time one was really responsible for all branches. Including making contact with and maintaining the

relationships with the life business. But I wasn't expected to do any technical negotiations in life.

What were you doing in Germany?

Germany, we had gradually got our business going again. And the picking up the pieces there was slow but

very important purpose because after all Germany economically was of very big importance. We were helped

to some extent by the fact that the Swiss Re had a very big business in Germany, largely direct, because they

had more or less sustained the market between the wars. And then after the second war they really came in and

exerted their influence.

The Munich Re was a big player before the war?

Yes. And very quickly restored its position. And it had a very big relationship with the biggest direct German

company, the Alliance? That was - gave it a very strong platform from which to operate. I also went to France

a bit. And - but usually with somebody else. My French was never really good enough to do it. And you had

to speak French. And I always enjoyed that.


May I just ask you a bit more about Germany because the previous time you had been in Germany was as a

military man in the army. And what were your feelings about dealing with the Germans?

Well, they had to be rather kept under control. And - but I mean it was business. But Germany was - there

again it was functioning -

Was it difficult emotionally for you to be civil and businesslike?

No, it wasn't really. I mean it was in the back of ones mind all the time. And - but - I think one overcame it

without being too obvious about it I think. Hope so.

The social contacts that had been so successful and indeed easy for you in Australia and South Africa, etcetera.

And did the same sort of relationships exist in Europe?

Yes, certainly in Scandinavia. Although - they were always - much more as it were, foreign, than the

Australians ever were. But I enjoyed them very much. And made a good many friends there.

But not in France and Germany. You didn't have the same contacts?

Well no. But one did have, you know, always a nucleus of people to whom one was - was friendly and one

could always ask and - take advice from.

Is that true today do you think. Does that sort of arrangement exist still. Is that how you get business?

It's always been a very personal business. And - it is less personal today because as I think I've mentioned

before, the intervention of the broker. And it was never our policy in the early days to take anybody elses

advice on the quality of the company. And the - and the calibre of their management and their general attitude.

Because reinsurance is a very long term business and you don't expect to make a profit every year. And unless

your relationship is right the problem is that in a bad year somebody may come in and say "well look here -

your business may not be very attractive but I'm prepared to do it if you give it to me and take it away from the

chap who's just made the big loss". Well now it was attractive to the ceding company to deal with it, unless he

had the proper attitude which was of continuity and staying with a reinsurer on the clear understanding that the

relationship was one which was meant to provide a profit for both parties over a long period, even if there were

a lot of - bad patches throughout the long relationship, was a long term - connection. And if you weren't sure

that the people you were dealing with were prepared to - look at it like that and deal with it on a long term

basis, then it wasn't a relationship that was worth having. So that's why personal friendships with the people

that you did business with was so important.

Do you think that will ultimately be the undoing of the reinsurance business, when it becomes more impersonal?


No, I don't think so. But I think it'll be a much less interesting business. I mean it is a vital service. No insurer

can possibly live without reinsurance. And whether he gets it on an entirely commercial basis, or whether he

gets it because of a sound relationship, - it'll still be necessary. He'll still have to have it. Of course what is

more likely to see the diminution of the reinsurer's role is the fact that companies get so big that they don't need

reinsurance except for the major catastrophes and the very biggest risks. That may well - but it's a long, long

way into the future - leave so little surplus business that can't be absorbed within the direct writers own capacity

that there isn't enough for the reinsurer to live on. But I think that is unlikely to happen, because the reinsurers

themselves have got big enough to have a very strong influence in the direct market itself. And - indeed they

own direct business, quite a lot of them do. And I think your question is a very valid one, but - there are too

many - conflicting factors that will weigh against that movement I think. But - it's very interesting how little

reinsurance has changed - since it first became - actively - practiced in about l50, l80 years ago.

So you've now got a tremendous spread of international experience?

That's right.

When you came back to London and took over as head of the fire department, you were probably, what, one of

the most internationally experienced people?

Well, I was one of several. I mean I had concentrated on the old Empire if you like. And on the English

speaking parts of Europe. But we had huge business which had been built up by others, by Fitzgerald for

example in particular. Right through the middle - Far East, India - and - Japan. So he had a very wide

business. We didn't of course have very much in America at this time. What we had in America came, as it

were, secondhand through the Swiss Re. And because we had the business through the Swiss Re there was very

little incentive for us to go there. But it should never be forgotten that America provided about forty percent of

all the insurance business done worldwide. So it was an absolutely vital market. And - the Swiss had had a

very varied experience there. But we got our dollar - business - through them. Not directly from that market.

Except for two or three contracts which were very important to us. One of which was an organisation called

The American Foreign. Which was virtually an amalgamation of American direct company interests overseas

outside America. And - other American business which was not so much in America but American interests

overseas. And another one called The American International Underwriters. AFIA was The American Foreign

Insurance Association.

You were doing this from your Toronto office?

No, we did that from London. That was written in London.

Did you establish a United States office?


Not at this stage. This came later. That didn't become important a) until the Swiss Re ceased to be

shareholders, and b) until we had the resources that enabled us to go in there. That's another story and a very

important one, which comes after I became general manager.

So may we return to London and pick up the story there as it were?

Well, I suppose the - next stage - is to say that Charles Calburn was getting near retirement age. And - we

were also - running out of space. And we had moved - from Moorgate to Moorfields House. Which was - in

Tenter Street, which is quite interesting, in the wool part of the City.

I remember you saying about the hooks?

Yes. And - we had had added on to that. And then I think surprisingly and not really what we had expected, BP

wanted to build Britannic House where it now is, or - Moorfields and behind Moorgate underground station.

And we were really in their way. And - a deal was done whereby they acquired our site, including our bit of car

park which we had. Which was all on bomb sites really, it was all very sort of derelict. And they found us the

site which is almost adjacent, at right angles to Old Moorfields House. And we built New Moorfields House

there. Well at about the time that this was completed, under the - at the time when Charles Calburn was still

general manager, he had his time extended by about l8 months. What the story was there I don't know. But I

suspect it was the Swiss - Charles Calburn never got on completely well with the Swiss Re. Although he'd

been in the Swiss Re he had one or two people who he didn't get on particularly well with. But the Swiss are

very strange and un - they're not very innovative people, and I think they were happier with the devil they knew

than the devil they didn't. And at anyrate, I think it was about l8 months that he extended beyond his retirement

age of 65. And - my appointment came when I was pretty certain it was going to come before I left England on

a trip to the Far East. And - onto Australia. And I actually got a telegram in Manilla telling me that I was

appointed from the lst of January l966 I think it was.

Appointed to what position?

General manager. And - so - that really started a new era.

Tell me about the moment when you got that telegram in Manilla?

Well funnily enough - it came just as I was going into a big dinner that had been arranged by one of our more

important clients there. And - the head man of the American company that I was talking about, with whom we

had this very big business, was also there. And so it was quite a sort of - He was quite excited about this too.

And we had quite a celebration, which I remember very well. I may say Manilla in those days was pretty - a

pretty primitive and rough place. And - Sen, my wife, was with me. And I remember being met at the airport

and being told by our host - he said "this isn't an invitation, it isn't - you know, I'm not doing this out of

hospitality. But this car and this chauffeur is at your disposal throughout your stay in Manilla. And you have to


promise me that even if you're going round the corner to buy some toothpaste you won't leave the hotel unless

you're in this car". And that shows a difference between Manilla before martial law and after martial law.

Because after martial law it was entirely different, you could go wherever you liked. But there had been several

cases - in fact one Swiss Re chap had been knocked on the head - just outside his hotel.

Robbed?

Robbed, yes, yes. But anyrate -

You continued your journey to Australia?

Went on and continued my trip.

Why were you travelling to Australia then?

Well, to see how the new company which we'd set up there was going on. It was very much a responsibility of

mine. And - then I went on to New Zealand to see how things were there.

Would this be a continuing pattern for you?

Yes, it was.

World travel?

Absolutely. Pretty well non-stop.

May I ask you about this l8 month delay, as it were, from Calburn's official retirement time to when he retired.

Was this because there was nobody else on the horizon except you. And they didn't like the look of you in

Switzerland, or - what was the reason for you not being appointed l8 months earlier?

It was never divulged to me. But I think they - I don't know. I mean I was never, I don't think, a 'yes' man.

And - had my own ideas. And I think Charles Calburn was by no means a 'yes' man. But they'd come to terms

with his methods. And - I don't think they'd quite come to terms with - with mine.

Were yours noticeably different. What were you doing that would be different?

I don't know. I can't answer that question. But -

But they were nervous about you?


That's my only supposition. And -

Did you feel any resentment at waiting l8 months for the job?

No, not at all. But - It was - in a way - you know, it was quite cosy to - have a bit longer to get - in touch

with everything.

Before we pick up your career as the general manager, which I believe was in l966. May we just look at home

life and what had been going on there. You had three daughters. And you were living in Essex. What was life

like. You were earning considerably more money than when we last spoke about home life presumably. Were

things comfortable at home?

Yes, reasonably so. One lived - a very - busy business life. The girls were going to - we were very lucky, they

had an absolutely super - pre-preparatory, I think it's now called, school. With a very clever woman who -

really taught them how to learn. Which was the important thing. And I think the fact that they've all done well

to a greater or lesser extent, academically after that, was a large measure due to her. And - the social life was

fairly active too, because - well having lived in Essex all my life and knowing a lot of people there. It was still

very much post-war. Everyone had come back and everyone was really working as hard as they could to

become established. I mean - six years sort of removed from ones career by being a soldier, prepared one for

very little. And everyone was in the same boat more or less. And - but social life was fun. I played a good

deal of golf. I had quite a bit of shooting in the winter. I - kept up - well I hadn't really kept up riding after -

my steeplechasing accident. And being very busy with - you can't really do too much with horses.

Do you think you would have spent more time in England if you'd had sons rather than daughters. Would you

have had more incentive to stay behind do you think?

I don't think so, because I think that was the job. I mean - you'd have either had to say "well this is not the job

for me". Or - one or the other. I mean I don't think you could possibly have - have - done it the other way.

What about the local community. Were you becoming a figure?

No. One was too busy to take on anything else. I mean it was 9 to 5 in the City every day. And the weekends

you spent with the children and - And, as I say, I played a certain amount of golf. And it was mostly business

golf really, to get involved with and to get to know business people better. Because the weekends were entirely

spent with the family and in the garden and getting the place sort of squared off. We had about - I can't

remember if it was ll or l4 acres. And I kept a lot of pigs and I had a man and a cottage. And I employed a man

to look after the place, generally speaking, and try and make a bit of money with pigs and broiler chickens. And

- we never made much money, but it paid his wages pretty well. And enabled us to have him around. And he's

still with me today. Bob Roberts. And Mrs Roberts. And they have two children who are about the same age

as ours. So the whole thing became a fairly close-knit operation.


Did the children go away to school?

They did eventually go to Felixstowe College. Because we looked at all the other schools on the other side of

London that we could think of. And although we liked some of them very much and would liked to have sent

them there. There were two cousins who had been to Felixstowe. And it was on this side of London, there were

no traffic problems to get there. And they had at that time a very nice headmistress called Miss Jones. Who

was a great character. And I can remember saying to her "well now, we think you're super, but how long are

you going to stay here, because we've got three daughters to educate". "Oh", she said, "I'll never retire". But of

course she did. And while she was there it was a very good school. When she went it changed very much. And

- Sen was very clever here because she could see that it was not going to be the school that it was. And so she

let them get their O levels behind them, and they all did pretty well. And then sent them each to a different

school for their A levels. Our eldest went to Kirby Lodge at Cambridge. The second one went to Beech Lawn

at Oxford. And the third one went to Queensgate in London. And that did broaden out the whole thing. And

was really a very successful - idea. The eldest one was bright and got through her A's with a year to spare. And

having a great sort of artistic talent, which she still has, we sent her out to Florence to study under a well known

lady called Seemy? And that taught her - I think gave her a very good foundation for when she came back and

went to the Central School of Art and got a very good degree. And since then, having concentrated mostly on

stained glass to start with and has had several commissions, including one in the local church here for her - my

cousin, her cousin, Airey Neave, - Then of course she got married and had a family. So that rather receded.

The second one was more of a family nature. And she married and quite quickly had three children. And - but

she also had a sort of artistic streak, if you like. And she still today lectures for the V & A museum and the

Wallis collection. And takes tourists round there. And has become quite something of an expert on silver. The

youngest one was - the more of a handful. She, I think, attracted the young - members of the opposite sex in

any great quantities. But - Sen handled that very cleverly too. Well in a very - wisely female understanding,

which I would never have been able to cope in the same way. And I think it was quite handy for me to be out of

the way in this. If I'd had sons I'd have had to come in on it much more. But Sen was very wise in bringing up

our girls I think. And - I left her a very free hand. I didn't interfere except if I was asked to wade in. And -

eventually - Venetia - she actually went into the City and she did, without any - .....




You said that your youngest went into the City and got a job in a reinsurance brokers office. Weren't the

brokers the old enemy so to speak?

Well yes, but only - and I mean - it was a very - I mean it didn't make much difference.

Were you surprised by her doing that?

I was a little surprised to start with. But she made a great success of it. And I mean at that time there were girls

going into Lloyds and into Lloyds broker businesses. She wasn't alone there. And actually she got the

introduction through a girlfriend of hers whose father ran an agency. And without calling upon me at all.

Though by this time I was fairly well known in the insurance world in the City. And so they immediately asked

who she was. But - it was quite a different field, and - it worked - very well. She did very well. She had

several jobs. And then she came out of it and did various other things. In the West End, in estate agency and

that sort of thing. But never very seriously. Until she then married. And after she'd had her two children - now

she does work in - and enjoys it very much - in an interior decorators. Rather fashionable interior decorators

firm. Not full time, about two or three days a week.

Where does this artistic temperament come from that is running through your daughters?

I don't know. I don't know.

You are not a painter?

Not a painter. I do a lot of needlework. And - I'm certainly - would not describe myself as a Philistine. But -

So the children were familiar with things artistic as it were?

I think very much so.

Would you go to galleries?

Oh yes. Oh yes. And - in fact Pepy's husband is deputy keeper of the National Gallery. And very senior in it.

The arrangement then at home was that your wife would run the place. And you would be out working,

travelling?

Yes. You see my wife being from New Zealand had no family here. There were always one or two relations

over from New Zealand, so we saw quite a lot of them. But she had no sort of basic family. And so she really


got very much involved in her own family and running that. Which was - worked very well. She was extremely

good at it.

And did you change houses at all before coming here?

No. We - we came here. We were always - preparing for a move. And the house that I was born in, which is

across the fields from here, called St Leonards. And a very, very attractive and beautiful house. Was then being

bought by a very senior member of Fords. An American. And - I'd got to know him because of my family

connection and my own connection with St Leonards. And he'd agreed to sell, or give me the first refusal,

before he sold it to anybody else. He said he would sell it to me. But in the event my uncle - my father's elder

brother - died, who lived in this house. And his eldest son, Airey, who at that time was MP for a constituency in

Oxfordshire, Abbingdon, wanted to live on that side of London and not here. And he sold this to me very

generously, inasmuch as it was on the probate value. And - so - this really fitted very much better I think in

many, many ways, than St Leonards would have done.

Why?

It's bigger. Not much bigger. But it's - because they pulled a lot of St Leonards down to make it - smaller. I

don't know why I say much better. St Leonards would have been very, very nice. But - this has worked out

very well. There's more land here. There's a hundred acres here. And - I don't know. I mean, you know, they

would have both - But I think probably I'd have had to pay a great deal more for St Leonards than I had to pay

for this. Because of the family connection and -

Could you have afforded this if it had been the market value?

Well, it was a struggle to afford it anyway. But I mean one could see that one would grow into it. And it was

worth having - a struggle.

Did you entertain here?

Oh yes, we did. And we get a lot of office parties here too. I used to have the whole of the M & G staff here for

a garden party in the summer.

How many would that be?

Well, it probably wouldn't be more than about 200. But something like that.

All the staff?


I think all the staff and their wives would be invited. But of course not all of them were able to come. But it

was very useful being - able to entertain here, because one could also entertain clients here a great deal. And it's

close enough to London. Cars could bring them down. And much nicer than having - constantly being in - in

restaurants. And one knew so well from travelling round the world how much one preferred going to a home

than one did going to a restaurant.

How did your wife feel about the entertainment side?

Well she entered into it wonderfully. And she was always very co-operative and helpful. And of course we got

help to do it. We either got the M & G to come down. And George Ward, who drove for me and was a splendid

chap in every way, he would act as butler. And then we'd get a local girl in to do the cooking or finish the

cooking off that Sen had done. Oh, it worked very well.

Your father now would be getting quite elderly?

Yes, he died when he was 83.

When was that, can you recall?

And that would have been in - I think the very early 60's. I think it was -

What sort of impact did that have on you?

Well - of course my mother was still alive. And she went to live in a cottage belonging to my brother. Which

was right next door to his house. And that was altered and done up and made available for her. And - so - apart

from losing my father and - and the sadness of that -

Was that a particularly bad moment?

Not really, no. I mean he was old and one was prepared for it and - he'd - luckily hadn't been ill. And he just -

died in his sleep one night. And - financially - it had little impact, because my mother was still alive.

And when did she die?

About l0 years later. She died in the early 70's. Again, she was lucky, she wasn't ill, she just - old age. And

she was about the same age, she was 83.

So back at M & G?


Back at M & G I'm now general manager. The M & G was getting big. And there were two things that really -

I was concerned about. One was there was no - what you might call trade association of reinsurers. And

London was becoming bigger and bigger - as a reinsurance centre. And most of the big foreign reinsurers were

- if not establishing offices here, getting - quite active. I mean now they're all here. But - unlike the other

branches was a very active association of marine insurers, called the Institute of London Underwriters. A very

active association of fire insurers. Called the Fire Offices Committee. Which was the basis of the tariff. And

equally the accident offices had an association. But the reinsurers were sort of - nobody's own. And it seemed

to me that this was going to be beneficial if London was going to become a reinsurance centre in any kind of

organised way. That we should have an association.

Was that a defensive move in some ways on your behalf?

Not really, no. It was - much more to try and influence and organise reinsurance as done in London. And so

that the - any cowboy activities could be at least - there were some organisations through which it could be -

handled.

Were these cowboy organisations moving in and taking business away from you?

Well, that hadn't happened so much as - as the fear that it might happen. And - but in any case there was also

the need to represent the increasingly complex business into the controlling bodies in the government. And to

have a lobby that one could use - for such complicated things as exchange control, because our business was a

multi-currency business. I forget how many currencies. But I think at one time there was certainly 60 active

currencies in which we were functioning. And probably twice as many with - not so much business going on.

But I mean that gives you an idea of the complexity of exchange control. And with that taxation. And to have a

uniform voice if ever one went to the government and said "now I'd like to talk about stamp duty". They'd say

"well who are you". And I'd say "well Mercantile & General". "Well who else thinks this. And - I mean it's all

very well for the Mercantile & General who admittedly we know you're the biggest people in the business".

And there was no market body that could go and negotiate these things.

Were you the M & G representative as it were, in your relationship with the government or the treasury?

Well inasmuch as one was the boss.

But did you have a direct contact?

No. No. This was one of the things - this is what really worried me. And whereas the fire offices had their

association and the others had theirs, we didn't have one. So the - the sort of - umbrella body over these

associations was the British Insurance Association. And that was the body that dealt with insurance as a whole.

Not in its deep, compartmentalised functions. And so I went to see the chairman of the BIA, or - I forget

whether he was called chairman or president. And at that time he was the - chief executive of the Legal and


General I think. And his name's just gone out of my mind for the moment. But I'll think of it. And I got hold of

the other big reinsurance company, which was about half our size. Called the Victory. Who had a very splendid

chap as their general manager. And we went to see this chairman. BIA chairman. And I told him what my

ideas were. And he was very supportive. And so then I wrote round to them alll, and to cut a long story short,

after a lot of negotiation and a lot of - tooing and froing and organising and one thing and another, we formed

the Reinsurance Offices Association, and I became the first chairman of this.

Was there a reluctance amongst some of the smaller companies to join in?

Not so much reluctance as - you know, I mean anything that's new, I mean they'd jogged along alright as they

thought for - and one had to look to the future a bit here to see what was going to happen. And - I was very

concerned that it should be an association of reinsurers functioning in London. Rather than to be an

international body. Because reinsurance is totally international, it goes over all frontiers. And - if one set ones

self up as an international body, I could see all sorts of - of problems. And head on collisions. Big people like

the Swiss Re and the Munich Re, who could have been extremely awkward if they'd wanted to. Whereas if we

kept it quite locally to - operations in London. To have a cohesive voice of people doing reinsurance business

in the London market. Then there was a much better chance of making our own way. And - this got off the

ground in a big way. It was tremendously well supported. And we had an enormous number of people who

came in from all over the place. And - it really started to have an influence and today it has changed to some

extent. But my long term views, my long term aspirations, I could never really get further than a certain

amount. But now I'm delighted to see that they're all coming to fruition and it's taken a long, long time. And

I've had nothing to do with the latest moves which are taking place now. But which - the seeds of which I was

definitely responsible for sewing. And they are having a - a centrally computerised - way of writing the

business. I mean it's quite difficult to explain very briefly, but - you all subscribe. I mean I say 'all', if you

subscribed to a risk of a whole lot of people doing exactly the same, and instead of dealing with them all

individually it's absolutely tailor-made to be put into a computer. But you could never really get agreement on

this for all sorts of reasons. The London insurance market is - and I'm not ashamed to say so - pretty

unadmirable - bunch of people when it comes to co-operation. They are terrified of surrendering any possible

competitive advantage which they think that they may have. An advantage which in my opinion is totally

illusory. And they would all do far better to co-operative and to compete as hard as they liked on service, but

not on technicalities. Because ultimately as a - as a - as a policyholder what you really want more than anything

else is good service. Prompt dealing with your - explanation and clarity. And you're not anything like so

concerned as to whether it's one or two percent more expensive or less expensive. You're prepared to pay for a

little bit more if you get good service. And - I think that they made a very big mistake in - in trying to - And

they hide behind - anti-trust? discussions and - you know, monopoly talk and all this. But the simple fact is that

if they - if they had a totally - all the statistical evidence on a class business in every single motor accident was

fed into a computer - the age of the car and the driver, all those sort of details, you would then have

established, as the life people have established, mortality tables of what causes death. And that is totally across

the board. In fact it's not really based so much upon life insurance as it is upon the medical side of things. But

if you could have the mortality tables of motor insurance, then you could convince anybody that this is the


statistics and this is why we have to charge this premium. But they won’t co-operative, they won’t - These are

the sort of problems that one was - trying to - to deal with. And I spoke a lot at meetings and things. Seminars

and -conventions. And - But I could never get anywhere. I never got - I never got an inch.

Competing on the basis of price is a sort of sacrosanct thing isn't it, in the British industry?

Yes, I don't think it ever should have been on insurance. Because I think if you had the statistical evidence as to

what you need, you could convince people that you were charging a fair price. And that that was the proper

price. And it gave you enough margin to deal with catastrophes, it gave you enough margin to build up

reserves. But it - was fair. I mean now what happens is that you get somebody strikes it well and they make a

lot of money. Somebody else comes in and says "well if they can charge that and make this amount of money

I'll charge much less". Then it goes wrong. The whole thing goes into a great nosedive and you all have to pull

out of the nosedive and - do it again. It's exactly the same in fire business and these latest hurricanes are a very

good example of this. That you get a disastrous experience. I reckon that they'll have to put the premiums up

about forty percent or something like that. If they'd had the statistical evidence all the way along, this would

still have been a very difficult one to deal with, I think this would still have overtaken people and there would

have had to have been a rise because of the disasters that have taken place in the last six months. But even so

the basis on which you were charging would have the evidence that made it the sensible, reasonable thing to do.

And it would have gone some way, at any rate, to eliminate the naturally cyclical nature of the business.

Tell me about the job itself internally. And this is external activity of yours. You became general manager.

Was that the most powerful position in the firm?

Oh easily. Oh yes.

As opposed to say today you would have a managing director who would be more powerful?

Well it's just a change of title. I mean I was general manager to start with and then I became managing director.

But as general manager you weren't on the board of directors were you?

No.

Was that unusual?

I wasn't to start with. I first of all became general manager and director. But in those days it was not at all usual

for the executive to be mixed up in the board. Of any company. And the two were kept quite - quite separate.

The fashion has changed now totally. And there are very few companies that don't have executive and non-

executive directors on the same board. But funnily enough there still is the undoubted distinction. And I mean

even for such things which are quite sort of obvious that when the salaries of the executive directors have to be


discussed, well they have to leave the board to let the non-executive directors discuss and decide on the salaries

of the executive directors.

But in l966 when you became general manager how would the board know about the detailed problems etcetera

of the company?

Only what they were told by the management. And by the general manager in particular.

Would you have to go into board meetings and present?

Oh yes. Oh yes. The chairman was a much more permanent - part of the organisation. Although he was non-

executive. He would come to the office about two or three times a week probably. And - he was somebody

who, fortunately for me, I had a simply splendid man, Ken Goshen, who I admired enormously and who I could

weep on his shoulder or ask his advice. And - I like to think that I had a very - excellent relationship with him.

He used to call himself 'the abominable no man'. Because anything that was put up to him he'd say no. Until

he'd been convinced. And then - And this was very good for one. And - he - used to say to me "well you may

think I'm very negative, but never forget I was slump trained". He'd been a banker in his own firm of Goshen &

Cunliffes. And then later in Anthony Gibbs. And he was in the City in those early 30's when the slump was

very evident. And then in the war he had been in America. In Washington. In one of the - treasury's missions

out there. And - I was very lucky with him. But he was someone who was there two or three times a week.

He'd come in two or three times a week. The rest of the board we only saw them - once a month or - Actually

we had an investment committee every fortnight - every month, and a board meeting every month. So it was in

fact every fortnight that one used to see them.

When you became general manager, all powerful. Did you like what you found in the company. Or did you

immediately find that things were not as you would have liked?

No, very much the mixture as before. I mean I'd been very close to Calburn and seen what was going on. And

there was very little to change in the company. Except that we were still really fighting what was a more or less

continual battle with the Swiss Re. The situation there had become one where really we were by now the Swiss

Re's biggest competitor. Our success in the post-war period had reached the stage now where we were really

running into the Swiss Re wherever we went. And - I was very anxious to get rid of the Swiss Re interest. And

- how to set about that was - quite a problem, because their financial support was so - strong and so - needed.

That one had to be sure that - whoever might buy their interest was sympathetic and - favourably disposed

towards our aspirations. Which were to establish in the British market - an independent - professional

reinsurer. By professional I mean specialist, or someone who did nothing else but reinsurance. That was as -

powerful in the London market as, for example, the Swiss Re were in - and the Munich Re were, on the

continent of Europe. And it was noticeable that - most countries were trying to establish powerful reinsurance

activity in their own markets. The French had a government reinsurer. Or largely government reinsurer, called

The Score? And the - the Dutch had one. The Germans of course had the Munich Re. But they had various


other ones as well. The Cologne Re, the oldest of all. The - Scandinavians were powerful too, particularly in

Copenhagen. And in America there was a lot of reinsurers. Although the American ones tend not to be very

international. But - I'd always had my eye on the Prudential.

Why?

Because investment in reinsurance is - ....




Reinsurance is attractive only to a rather specialised kind of investor. Because it's extremely long term. You

don't have - regular profitable years, hopefully increasingly profitable all the time. You're very exposed to the

most hazardous end of the market and you get violent swings of profitability. And - and - and unprofitable

cycles. So really you look to people who have very long term money to invest. And of course a life insurance

company has the longest term of all. I mean they're looking to maturities 70 years ahead in some cases. And so

they're an ideal investor who can afford to put the money there and see the capital increase and the capital

growth be the steady progression. Whereas the annual result is a very jerky one. But - the problem was not - at

this stage to stimulate the interest of the right kind of life insurer to invest in the M & G. It was to persuade the

Swiss Re to sell.

Now the Swiss Re were on the board of the company?

They were also on the board.

Did they dominate the board?

Not at all, no. They didn't always appear. They usually appeared. By this time the chairman of the Swiss Re

was a man called Max Eisenring. Who was an actuary. A very broad minded and a nice chap. I liked him quite

a lot. And he would come to the board meetings.

And how did you approach it. Would you say to the board "these are my feelings, this is what we must do"?

Well - it - was difficult. I mean I don't think one could ever have an official policy of getting rid of the Swiss

Re.

So you would have to lobby?

It had to be much more - more done in a - more subtle way than that. And - one of the great protagonists who

felt the same as I did, was a tremendous ally of mine in the

M & G, was George Foster, who was the chief actuary of the group. Who'd had an amazing success in building

up the life business. I mean he was a very - religiously motivated man. And a non-smoker, non-drinker. And -

very - high principled man, who I admired enormously. And - in spite of being those things he was possibly the

most commercially minded man I've ever met. And - he always said that on the day that the Swiss Re sold their

M & G shares he would drink a bottle of champagne. I remember I held him to that. I don't think he drank a

bottle, but he certainly drank a glass of champagne on that great day. But -

But how did the two of you work this?


Well, I think it was sort of niggle, niggle really. And wherever the Swiss Re looked they found us being a thorn

in their flesh. I think that brilliantly successful though they were with all their power of - technical know-how

and financial strength - generally speaking our reinsurance salesmen were more popular in the market than the

Swiss, who were too sort of serious minded and - But at anyrate, it worked. I mean they'd been frightfully

successful. I mean they'd been - they're bigger than the M & G, but it nevertheless generated friction. And I

could tell many stories about how this friction reacted in quite an amusing way.

Any personal experiences I'd like to hear about, yes. Do you have any particular incidence where you were

involved personally?

Well, you see Fitzgerald was sent out to - to decide as to what we should do about establishing local

representation in the Far East. And - he knew - discovered somehow - that the Swiss were either tapping his -

telex system, or they knew - what was going on between him and our head office. I was never quite sure why,

but Fitzgerald, twigging on to this, would send a telex one evening saying 'I've now had an opportunity of

considering the best place to establish an office for the M & G to look after our Far Eastern interests. And come

to the conclusion that Hong Kong is the right place to be'. And then he'd send another one in the morning

saying 'after further reflection I think it would be better in Singapore', you see. And then he'd send a third one

saying 'that after mature consideration of the various possibilities, he thought it might be better to be in Manilla',

you see. And he knew that this was - he did it deliberately.

Who was receiving the telex, was it you?

It was coming to me.

And you didn't think the man had gone mad?

Well no, because I could read between the lines in a way the Swiss couldn't. And I think - it was really very

funny. But those were the sort of niggles that - And there was a lot of very technical arguments. I mean a lot

of our business came via the Swiss. There was a time even when the pool - we had pooling arrangements. And

that our total underwriting - this was in the early days, long before this - would go into a great pool of business.

And we'd get business out of it which had a greater spread and all this kind of thing. And we didn't like this, we

wanted our own business and - and there were tremendous arguments and we were pretty firm about it all you

see. And - there was obviously friction - was arising.

May I just get some impressions from you of talking to the board for instance. How would you prepare for

those board meetings?

Well - one - had routine reports on - investments of course were - lists of transactions were available to the

board. And discussion as to policy. This was where the board was at their most useful. Because they were all

mostly bankers or people with - investment experience.


And was it a formidable group?

Oh yes. I mean we always had a Barclays - very senior Barclays Bank representative. We always used to have

two - at least pro consul on the board, who had been ambassador somewhere, or something like that. And we

always had a representative of Flemings Bank. The chairman himself. It was never a very big board. But those

and the Swiss Re chap, that was really probably the - the scale of it.

What were they concerning themselves with then. They weren't interested in the day to day running of the

reinsurance business. They were remote from it?

They didn't do the underwriting. But they were interested in - progression. I mean they'd get reports of how -

the business we were doing and the results of the business and - There was a lot of - of reporting of - of activity

to them. And they would approve of journeys that were going to be made, because they were very expensive of

course. And the programme of travel all round the world would be submitted to them. There would be - losses,

serious losses that were reported to them. They were, generally speaking, kept in the picture. And of course

any new venture or proposition that required - substantial finance. New buildings. Refurbishments.

Expenditure on machinery. Computers and that sort of thing. All that would come up to the board. And then

they would argue the proposition.

And would the non-executive directors expect that their firms, for instance the Barclays Bank man or the

Flemings man, those firms would become involved in any fund raising activities. Would they actually play a

commercial role as well as a director role?

Not really. No. No. I mean we banked of course with Barclays Bank. But - no, I think is the answer.

Did you know these people socially?

Some were friends, some of them were, yes. But -

Was that the normal sort of relationship that people would rather know one another. Be in the same sort of

social circle who were on the boards?

Not really, no. No. The City brought them together from all sorts of different directions. But - there wasn't a

great deal of - any real sort of social activity.

And what about looking down the line as it were to the managers and the assistant managers, etcetera. Did you

start to make changes there. Were there people that you started bringing on?


Well a little bit of that of course, because of - various - changes which happened. But there was nothing very

dramatic that - I changed. I mean you can't interfere with underwriting. And this was the very big - exposure

one had to problems. Because you have to leave a chap sufficiently free - to - decide for himself what he was

going to write and the terms he was going to ask and the terms that he'd agreed to.

So you had a formal relationship with the board at the meetings, etcetera. On a day to day basis, what contact

would you have, if any, with the members of the board?

Only really through the chairman. I mean I would under certain circumstances, would perhaps contact them

direct. But not on the important business matters. The chairman would be a source of access to the board. And

I would always clear with the chairman any proposition that I was going to put forward to the board. On the

basis that it was really very unprofitable to have a proposition which was going to be opposed by the chairman.

That never seemed to me to make any sense at all. And if, take an example, a matter which would obviously

have gone before them and had to be agreed by them - I wanted to establish offices in Paris, which was going to

involve a great deal of expense and a great cost. Housing a permanent representative and probably his family.

And then the work would be done to prepare the evidence on which the recommendation was made. The

amount of business we were doing and the different branches ....[inaudible].... What the cost of the

accommodation would be to house our representative. This would all be put forward and discussed with the

chairman. And if he said that he didn't think this was a good idea. Then I'd have to argue and argue with him

until I got his agreement. But I'd never put it up to the board knowing he was going to oppose it.

So you're saying that you would always clear something with the chairman?

Always.

And debate it with him?

Debate it with him. And then - it was up to me - to - clear my wires with him. I mean in the worst event - I

would have perhaps a lukewarm chairman who would say "well, yes, I agree with this. I think you can discuss it

with the board, but I'm not quite sure how they're going to react". It would be worth putting it up under those

terms. But it was never my policy - it may have been other people's - but it was never my policy to put up a

proposition in opposition to the chairman.

What do you think were the most important decisions you took as general manager during your time?

Well, I've covered one of them. But the formation of the Reinsurance Offices Association. I think the other

deliberate policy, as opposed to decision, was to give the M & G a much more - to use a modern expression

which I don't particularly like - 'a much higher profile' in the market. We'd come to a stage now where - I think

I mentioned before - when I first joined the M & G nearly everybody we did business with was bigger than us.

We were now the size of most of the people. And in many cases a great deal bigger. And I think our rather -


timid posture had now reached the stage where we had to protect ourselves much more firmly. And then a

distinct policy of public relations was involved here. And by taking part in as many market affairs as we could.

I tried to get us more into the limelight. And - internationally too, there had been established, before I took over,

by Charles Calburn - or - Charles Calburn was part of it, not a prime mover in it - an international assembly

every year, of reinsurers, in September in Monte Carlo. And - that became an enormous event attracting about

2,000 people. Where the amount of technical activity was very little. But in fact it was increased on the

suggestion of the Americans, because the Americans being - very - sensitive to things like their inland revenue.

And they had to agree that the expenses of visiting a congress of this sort were for genuine technical reasons.

And whereas the importance of it was in the contact and the discussion that you had about your business and

other people's business. And what to do next year. They didn't immerge in any formal ways. So we had to

establish certain formal proceedings, so there was a committee formed, and I was on that. And succeeded

Calburn on that. And every country - there were about a dozen people on that, and then each one of us in turn

used to take over responsibility for the formal proceedings. All this gave the M & G a much more public image

than it had ever had before. I read in a paper at one early Monte Carlo conference, which got a great deal of

publicity. And one used to be there every year. It became a pain in the neck actually. I mean it sounds lovely

to go to Monte Carlo every year, but I can assure you it was a job of hard work. Sen and I in fact went there 27

consecutive years. And - we got clever at it in the end and we'd stay outside Monte Carlo, on Cap Martin and

come in. It was only ten minutes’ drive in every day.

In a hotel?

In a - in a - not a - not a very good hotel, but anything was better than being in the middle of Monte Carlo. We

had to have a room - a sitting room for business purposes in the great Hotel de Paris. But as we had a delegation

from the M & G of about 8 people, it was made good use of. But all this was part of - increasing the - the public

awareness of the M & G. And one in that sense accepted invitations to speak at a great many functions.

How did you find that. Did you enjoy the public speaking?

To start with I was so nervous that it was an absolute - burden. But of course one got better. I don't know about

better, but one got used to it. And - and more able to cope. But I never found it - easy just to reel it off. I had

to prepare it and spend a long, long time preparing it. And funnily enough I found the most fertile place for

writing these papers and things, was in aeroplanes. Where you were cut off from any other contact. And you

knew you had a couple of hours of - of - uninterrupted time.

What about the impact of various governments during your period. Certainly a new Labour government would

have come into power in the 60's?

Well, this did change the technical climate, mostly on accounts matters and on tax matters and on - exchange

control matters. And had a very considerable influence on how you did things. But - as I started to say and I

don't think I really finished. One - I started talking about interfering with underwriting. And - but I'll come


back to that. But one established as a necessity, a very powerful financial - coterie of experts on tax and on -

the whole accountancy and - because that was absolutely vital to have that under control. And I was very lucky

in having a splendid man, a very quiet, but most knowledgeable, and who'd been a tax inspector himself - called

David Richards. And the chief accountant, Len Wadham, was an actuary. And - there were a lot of particular

slants to reinsurance, which didn't occur in direct business, or - were particular to our kind of business all over

the world. And the kind of way we did it. And to have a good team of these people was essential. And this ties

in with what I was going to say about leaving people to get on with it themselves. I mean there was a cohesive

and - properly established body with its - now become extremely important - legal department too. And -

coming back to the underwriting. I mean you had to leave the underwriter alone. It was no good giving him

underwriting authority within certain limits. I mean obviously you laid down what he mustn't do and what he

could do - if you were then going to look over his shoulder all the time. He had to be free to see the results of

his own activities. And the brokers or the seeding companies with whom he worked - hopefully there were very

few brokers - would know that he was his own - decision maker on underwriting matters. And that he didn't

have to run around to get sanction on what he'd done from above. Well now this presents certain problems in

certain ways. But - the problem that it poses most starkly is that if the chap chooses to ignore his instructions,

and if he gets carried away by the blandishments of either a seeding company or by a broker, you can land

yourself in very serious difficulty. And - this did happen once or twice. And - this - is a problem that happens

to all insurance activity. I've seen it happen, I've seen it break companies in different parts of the world too. I

saw it break an Australian company. And a New Zealand company. And - but there is no way round it. If you

don't give the chap independence to make a decision, the whole thing grinds to an absolute traffic jam, a kind of

log jam that is absolutely hopeless.

What happened. Give me an example of one these instances at M & G?

Well - it's very technical. But this particular chap started to write business which he knew he was not supposed

to write. Why he did it - history will never uncover. I mean he was - the blandishments of somebody who was

offering him all sorts of inducements, or was he just a fool, or was it because he wanted to spite somebody in the

organisation. You will never know. And of course you don't discover this unless you look at every proposition

that he has written, which one never really got the opportunity to do that. But the controls have to be there at

every level. And I think it's very easy to let the controls get a bit - a bit lax. And - fortunately in this case it

was discovered before it had got - too bad. But I always argue that if it had been discovered immediately, then

you would have been exercising an inhibiting control over the chap, which would have left him without the

freedom to write a successful account.

What happened to the man. Or person?

Well, he was - got rid off.

Up before you?


Well in fact no. Because he went without my having to - to get rid of him. But - I can recount other cases in

other companies where we were involved because we were reinsurers, which were much worse. But this didn't

only happen once, I know it happened at least twice. But - that is the way - the kind of business that it is.

And do firms or brokers give inducements to underwriters?

I think - they're very well concealed, but you - you are taken out for some magnificent party or something and -

Oh yes, I think you've got to be on your guard against it very much.

Did it happen to you?

I mean one could have put oneself in a position where it could have been very easily - But - That was rather

a digression from the deliberate policy of giving the M & G a high profile. The next thing was the - necessity

of being in America. And that we couldn't do until we got rid of the Swiss Re. Quite patently. Because the

Swiss had always made available to us - they'd had more American business than they really wanted - as much

as we could write. But the story of how the Swiss Re finally did get rid of us is one where I was actually

travelling in Africa at the time. And I was in Nairobi. And I got a telegram from - or a telephone call, from Ken

Goshen the chairman, which said that the Swiss Re - Max Eisenring their chairman - had decided that they

wanted to sell - the M & G - their shares in the M & G. Which was about fifty percent.

So that was a stroke of luck, good fortune?

Well like all - things that I experienced - in my experience. It was the unexpected that happened. It was hoped

for and longed for. But we never actually had - found the way to finally unlock the door. But I suppose it was

the persistent knowledge which they had from things we'd all been saying to them. And certainly I had. That

finally decided them on this. And of course it was making them a lot of money, it was very profitable to them,

the

M & G. And so they did it with a certain - you know - it was a big decision for them. And of course then came

the great negotiator - who would they sell it to. And this was a very worrying time.




The great worry was that if they sold their share - and they were perfectly entitled to sell it to anybody they liked

- to the wrong people, it could totally destroy the

M & G. And - we were very worried about an American buyer or any foreign buyer for that matter. And the -

great hope was that we could find - a - British buyer. Hopefully a life insurer and hopefully the Prudential. And

- George Foster came into - very much into his own at this stage. And he opened up the discussions with the

chief actuary of the Pru. A man called Ronald Skerman. And he and George Foster, chief actuary of the M &

G, got the thing moving. And - this was crucial because you're talking in big - money. And you needed to have

someone with a very good financial background, which I didn't have. And - then all the other - aspects could be

taken into account. And once one had got - that side of it cleared inasmuch as Skerman? could see the value to

the Pru in having a reinsurance - arm to their operations, then I could come in and talk to their chief executive

and if necessary their chairman too. And - it got that it went well with Skerman. And the ground was prepared

and - the Pru were interested. And - then - the Swiss had to be introduced to the Pru. And the Swiss as I was

saying earlier were very good inasmuch as they were prepared within limits to allow us to find our own -

purchaser, providing that it was at their price. And - to cut a long story short, that happened. And that gave the

Pru the Swiss shares. It left the Guinness shares - where they were. I mean still in the M & G. And - those

shares were held by the Guinness Trust. The trustees of which were myself and Robert Guinness. My cousin -

second cousin who lives in Ireland. And - it meant from the - trustees point - my point of view, that this very

considerable sum of money in the trust was virtually all invested in one place. And it was quite an anxiety in a

way because it was so much having all ones eggs in one basket. And - to find - another purchaser for the shares

was one thought. But paramount in my thinking was that really it wasn't such a risk because the Pru was

effectively a cross section of investment in the UK. And to have all ones eggs in that particular basket was such

a big basket that really the risks were, to a great extent, minimised. And I think my cousins who were

understood to eventually inherit this very considerable - proceeds from this trust, were reasonably well satisfied.

So these cousins obviously knew you. And you were the trustee. What did they think about that arrangement.

Were they happy having you there?

Well - of course - it didn't - have the influence on them at this stage that it was going to later. At this stage it

was simply swapping the Swiss Re for the Pru. And - I think it was very arguable that that was a better

proposition from their point of view.

What about the impact of this on you and your senior colleagues. Because the Prudential was very large,

traditional, almost not exactly non-risk, but low risk sort of business. Whereas you were something quite

extreme?

Quite extreme.

But why would they find you attractive?


Well, because as I tried to explain earlier. They had very long term liabilities. And they don't have to meet

those liabilities - on a life insurance policy. Many life insurance policies are - building up 70 years. And so

they've got a strong capital assett, which is appreciating all the time. They can afford to have those liabilities

invested in that kind of thing which is going to come good in 70 years. But isn't going to be the sort of annual

profit maker.

But those dips would show up on the ....?

Not if there's long term liabilities invested - and held for 70 years. And that's a very - sound way. Because

when they eventually have to meet them, the value of what they've put in is enormously increased over that

period. But not on a year to year basis.

I was just wondering about the shareholders reaction to the financial figures that might come in one year and

show that there was a big loss?

This has proved to be - a big problem for the Pru. Because accounting systems have changed. And now you

have to put everything very much more into a shop window than you used to do. And - if you compare the

accounting methods of, for example, the Swiss Re or the Munich Re, who don't have the same - accounting

regulations. The great way to run a reinsurance company was to, in profitable years, to tuck it all away where it

couldn't be easily seen, and then in the bad years pull it out so that the experience in your balance sheet looks

pretty smooth. And - that was absolutely a legitimate practice under Swiss and German law, and was under our

law for a certain length of time. Until now through various - things, it's become impossible to do that. And it's -

it's a very big subject and it's quite difficult to explain in a short way how - the regulations require one to make

as it were a mixture of apples and pears. When really - the two things are quite separate. Reinsurance and the

kind of life business the Pru do, the spectrum is extremely wide in the Pru group now. But the Pru made all

their monies, as you were saying earlier, in a non-risk business of collecting very small amounts of premium

from a huge number of people on a weekly basis. And the amount of risk there was in that was effectively nil.

But now with the M & G being a very substantial part of their operation, you get huge chunks of premium from

very few risks at the sharp end of the business. And you do get, and always have got in reinsurance, very

violent - upsets -

What did the gentlemens Prudential think of this new management group that they had?

Well, I dare to say we had a very good reputation both in the market and in internationally. And - the attractions

of - of acquiring the M & G - was a pretty prestigious achievement.

But what about working relationships. Would you seem to be rather sort of grand effet sort of chaps. Whereas

they were perhaps more hardworking, come up from the grass roots?


Well, I think that the instinctive feeling that that might be the case was worked upon pretty carefully. I mean we

were very careful - to establish the right kind of relationship with the Pru. And - But it was - I agree with you

- it was a danger. That they might regard us as being - you know - I mean the - Well I won't make the

comparison that I thought I was going to. I mean I take your point.

But were there difficulties?

No, there weren't.

Or frictions?

No, there weren't. Not really. The great thing we also had to establish was that to be successful in international

reinsurance, it's very important to be perceived to be independent. And not to be - The point being that direct

insurers are all competing one with the other. And in giving the reinsurance business at the Legal and General

to the M & G, if there was any suspicion in the mind of the Legal and General that giving their business to the

M & G was going to give the Pru - knowledge and access to their business, then the Legal and General wouldn't

want to be dealing with the M & G. And that's putting it at its crudest. But you can see that a reinsurer must be

non-competitive in the market. And to establish that an appearance at least of independence is absolutely

necessary. And I had to fight that one pretty hard with the Pru. For example, we didn't - in such trivial matters

as the suggestion came up that we should have a joint rugby football team, you see, Pru and M & G. Well I

resisted that, which seemed a bit stuffy. Because it would project an image of being the Pru's - That has

changed now. And it is less important for the very good reason that in about the middle 80's there was a

particularly severe downturn of business, which everybody suffered. And - I think the - need to have solid

financial backing, and the knowledge that the Pru were behind the M & G, became more important than the

need to show their total independence. And although the two things remain of great importance, the -

independence is - is something which had to go - really - in favour of - I always have to say we don't want to

bask in the financial glory of the Pru. Because our own financial independence is quite strong enough. And we

just like to have every appearance of being very much in the background. The traumas of the - early 80's really

swept a lot of that aside.

What did the merger do for your North American ambitions?

It stimulated them very much. And I was coming to that. Because it now made it not only possible, but in my

view, essential, to go into America. But this had very much more far reaching effects. I had to decide whether -

the family interest in the M & G - and there was no additional source of extra finance from the family interest -

was more important than the interest to the company and the people in it, for growth in America, which was the

one big field in which we had no stake. And as I said earlier, America accounts for forty percent of the world

insurance markets. And it took me no time at all to make up my mind that the family had to take second place

here. And that if money was needed to establish ourselves in America - and a lot of money was going to be

needed, about 50 million dollars at least - then the only way to do that was to get that additional funding from


the Prudential, which would mean that we had to sell the family interest to them first of all. And so - I mean

cutting a long story short, that is what happened.

How did the family feel about that?

Well - I didn't really give them much - chance. I mean my co-trustee, Robert Guinness, was agreeable if the

price was right, as indeed it - was proved - to be. And all the best advice we could get from the various people

that we consulted with this. And -

But no resentments towards you for doing this?

I daresay there was some. But - I was - quite ready to - to deal with this. And what it meant was taking -

instead of the trust holding M & G shares, the trust held Pru shares. So - again it was a question of eggs in one

basket. But the basket was perhaps more secure as Prudential than it was as just simply M & G. I mean much

more secure.

Would the Pru have been willing to have paid cash for the shares rather than exchange M & G for Pru shares?

I don't know whether they would.

But they did presumably sooner or later, did they. Did they buy these shares?

Then of course what happened was the life tenant of the trust, the widow of the first chairman of the M & G,

Dick Guinness's widow, Ursula Guinness, she died and that finished the trust. And that was dispersed to the

family in the form of Pru shares. But America became the number one again. And - I was certain that we had

to be there. And I had already despatched the chap who has now become the head man of the M & G, John

Lock, to make an investigation of the market, with a view as to - establishing ourselves. How we should do it.

What form it should take. And above all, who should be the chief executive.

Exactly the same sort of job that you had all those years before. And Lock was the man that you were

grooming?

Well no, that's not true. He was the man for that job, but there were at least - or there was at least one other

chap who - had every reason to think that he was - going to - be at least in the race. And - I think it's always

useful that you can't and don't identify the heir apparent too clearly and easily. And -

What qualities were you looking for in these men?

Well, I think times change. And I recognise that my only - I had no qualifications. I mean I was - you could

say I had - certain entrepreneurial talents and - was perhaps - quite - successful on the selling sales side and


marketing side. But I mean I was technically alright on marine business, but I hadn't in fact, because of the war,

ever been able to take the exams. And - I wasn't - what they now like to call numerate. I wasn't - anything -

any qualifications on figures or accounts or - I wasn't a lawyer, I wasn't a financier. And it was becoming

increasingly important that you should have - the right kind of qualifications for the rather changing modern

picture. Harley Patrick and John Lock both had good Oxbridge degrees. Both were - qualified - I think John

Lock was more qualified in - in insurance terms - as an FCII, than Harley was. And - both were, if not

specifically accountants, they were more numerate, more mathematically - and figure orientated.

What about the social aspects. Were they still important?

Very. I think both of them were - you know - been to good schools and they had - good - social background. I

mean nothing very special, but adequate.

So off Lock went?

So he went off to America. And came back with a very good report. And we then had to work on that. And his

plan at that time did not involve life business, it was just the general business. And he said that we should

establish a subsidiary company in New York, that we should do business with brokers there. Which didn't

appeal to me. But which he convinced me was the right way to do it. And he had a man. And the thing got set

up. And - I think I was the - I was the chairman.

So this was in l973 when you really got established in the States. But back home in Britain things were

difficult. This was the time of the great collapse of confidence?

Yes. Before we leave America - the life side, which was always very important to us, had been functioning

through Canada. And this was stepped up. And we did - make the life operations North American rather than

purely Canadian. And the necessary investment had to be made of course to take care of this. But that was all

very much of a two pronged attack into the market. But coming back to London as you say. The times were

difficult, but - in fact I mean I think that times were always - inclined to be - they were never easy. We never

had a very clear run at it.

I just wondered if it had impacted on you in any particular way. I mean presumably the premiums were under

pressure. And indeed investments from those premiums. Was this a difficult time?

Yes, I think it was. We were fortunate in having - very good financial control. And Ken Goshen, the chairman,

- was immensely helpful and controlled a very good financial area in the company with - a very good

investment team, headed by Roy Marshall. A very good accounts team headed by Len Wadham. A very good -

taxation - we called it group interests actually - headed by David Richards.

What about pressures on you at this time. Were you feeling any particular pressures?


Well, controlling this thing which was getting bigger and bigger all the time was pretty powerful stuff. And we

got to a stage now where we had to have regular meetings from overseas. And we'd get the group together from

all over the world to discuss the problems. This became a regular feature. The travelling never relented. It was

becoming more and more orientated towards board meetings and subsidiaries which one had to go to fairly

often. To conferences and seminars established in different parts of the world, which one took part in because

one met clients and potential clients there. And I'd become pretty active in a thing called the IIS. Which is the

International Insurance Seminars. Which is an American thing run by the most extraordinary American

professor called Bickley. Who upset a lot of people, but in fact - he always had in his - at his meetings, first

class people. And he attracted people who were of interest to the M & G. And we could never afford to just

dismiss 'Bickley's circus' as it was called, because we didn't like either him or his circus. Because so long as it

attracted clients and clients that were important to us, then we had to dance to that tune. Because it was very

important to our business that we should.

So you were a sort of working general manager in the sense that you were trying to get business in as well as

manage the company?

Well, yes. I mean if there was - business was stimulated by ones contacts, then you would send in your expert

in that particular line to do negotiations. And - but - one was very much leading the team in that kind of a way.

At this point you are not a director of the M & G?

I forget when I became a director. Maybe '77.

It was '77.

That made not any difference at all. It was purely cosmetic. And I think it was very kind of the board. They

wanted to recognise that - you know - the thing was going quite well.

Tell me about the premium income and the investment of that money. Because obviously you can earn a

considerable sum of money from the investments, the returns on the investment of the premium income. Now

would that tend to lead you and your staff to just go out and get as much premium income as you possibly

could, as interest rates started to improve and investment returns improved?

That in fact is a fatal policy which is - has been followed with disaster by - To underwrite on the basis of the -

interest which it will earn, has been responsible for a lot of grief in the insurance market.

But not in the M & G?


Well - inasmuch as we reflect the grief in the direct market, because inevitably we are bound to do so, as being

really drawing our business from the direct market entirely. It does reflect on us. But I mean - it was always

said that if you wanted to go out into the market on any particular day, you could - get .... [inaudible] ...

which would then produce you with nothing but problems. So it was not a policy to - I mean one always

wanted as much premium income as was worth having, as was going to produce a reasonable chance of being

profitable. And of course that's what we were seeking all the time. But not premium at any cost. That is a total

disaster. But you're right inthat the investment of this is where you ....




You became managing director. You were already general manager and you joined the board in '77. What was

the significance of being appointed managing director in l980?

I think probably - again, I think I've used the word before, it was 'cosmetic'. Inasmuch as I think it might have

been regarded as a fashionable way of arranging the hierarchy of the company, that the company had become of

a size now where directors felt that its public image would probably be better projected by having its chief

executive as managing director.

Was there an influence from the Prudential on your management style?

No, not at this stage. Of course later they became completely dominant. But not at this stage. And indeed it

was always my policy to keep them very much at arms length. Because one of the great - important features of

a reinsurer was his independence. I think I may have said this before. But I regarded this as paramount. And I

had to explain to the Pru I wasn't being beastly to them, I was just trying to do what I thought was in their best

interests, to keep the M & G an entirely independent and entire - in equine terms - so that it was - independent

in fact as well as in appearance. So becoming managing director didn't alter the - method of running the thing

at all.

What of the job of general manager. Did you still have a general manager?

Well, there again of course moving up the scale, you could call it deflationary if you like, but it made room

below to give people status of - of a higher rank. Which was probably welcome to them and recognition of their

- good work which they'd done. But - there again it didn't really alter anything, it wasn't - a fundamental change

in management structure at all. It was really a change of title.

You were 60 then?

Yes.

So you were thinking about a successor presumably?

Very much so. I mean I think probably the most important job that any chief executive can do is to prepare and

have ready his successor. And that - I was very conscious of that responsibility.

And who became general manager?

Well, in fact the chap who became general manager was really - a - a person who had been very important in

the administration of the business. The secretary of the company. Who'd had to take a tremendous amount of


the burden of the very big expansion we'd been through in all the other aspects of the company that really would

otherwise have been left behind by the people who were pounding ahead - with the business side of it. And

Peter Howell, who was not an insurance man, but who had been the sort of anchor man of the - admin side and

had been very good at it. He became general manager. And in fact in the event, because of things which I shall

come to in a moment, he in fact succeeded me as managing director. And what happened there is - perhaps this

is the time to go on to that, because - the time now came to decide about America. And I had made up my mind

that we had to go into America. And the board were behind me there. But it meant raising money. And that

money couldn't come from our own resources, it had to come from outside. And obviously the place to go to

was the shareholders. Well the Pru were quite - in favour of this. And of course they were fully represented on

the board. But the problem was the Guinness family, the trust, of which I was the trustee, as the other source of

the money. But this ground we've covered. The point was that we then became a total subsidiary of the Pru.

And the Pru started to take a hand in the future succession of the company. And they have certain, very sensible

I think, rules. And they said to me eventually - Ken Goshen, the chairman for many years, had retired. And

David Donald, who was a member of the board and a partner at Flemings, had succeeded him. And he was

going to retire. And so they said to me what they'd like me to do was to retire as managing director. To join the

main board of the Prudential. And then to return in two years, or three years was it, time. After David Donald

had retired. And take over as chairman of the M & G. And although I was only 63 at this time - it was a plan

which seemed to me to - I mean - the principle that he who pays the piper calls the tune, if that's what they

wanted and one didn't see anything violently contrary to the M & G's interests in that, I was prepared to go along

with them. That then included the fact that Peter Howell would become managing director for a couple of years.

And then John Lock, who I had selected and told, and I'd told Harley Patrick that John Lock would be my

successor. He then would take over. In the meantime Harley Patrick had left us. Because he was known to

have been passed over in the market - the head-hunters got after him and he went to run a Japanese company,

reinsurance company in London. So that was the plan. The fact that that plan never in fact took place is another

story. And a very interesting one. But that all took place in the future. But at any rate - it suited me in fact

quite well to retire, because I was going to be very busy anyway. Because I was in line as deputy president of

the Chartered Insurance Institute, to become president of the Chartered Insurance Institute. And as junior

warden of the Livery Company - the Worshipful Company of Insurers, was due to become master of that. So I

wasn't going to be exactly looking for things to do. Shall I go ahead now to what happened in the event.

Yes. I'd just like to know about your feelings though when this was put to you. Did you feel some sort of

resentment initially. Did you think that you were being shuffled out?

No. Not at all. I mean it was put to me - the Pru are very good in that kind of way. I mean it was put to me as

an idea. And they explained - Brian Corby, who was the chief executive of the Pru, and on the M & G board -

put it to me as something which he, you know, wouldn't go ahead with if I didn't agree with it. And it did seem

to make a lot of sense. Looking ahead which so often people don't look ahead. And on those terms - it had my

full agreement. There was no pressure.


May I ask you about the function of the general manager when you became managing director. Because

traditionally as general manager you'd gone to the board with your propositions etcetera. And now you're

already on the board, so what was he left to do?

I'd been on the board as general manager and director. It was really, as I've said several times, it was more - it

was cosmetic. It had no change in the hierarchy. The chain of command was exactly the same. But instead of

being - if you like a lieutenant general, he was a full general. Or instead of being a general, he was a field

marshal.

And what would the general manager be doing that you wouldn't now be doing as managing director?

Well, nothing. In fact it didn't change at all. The role and the function and the responsibilities of the chief

executive remained then as they had been in the past.

Was this a difficult position for the general manager to be in?

I don't think so, because it was fully understood by him that his secretarial administrative function was the one

that - that was important to him. And - there wasn't any argument about it.

So what happened to not bring all this about?

Then - in - two years later, when David Donald retired, and sadly died very early and very unnecessarily. I

mean there was some frightful medical mixup - through - I won't go into the story of it, but he was - had drugs

for arthritis and then they introduced a duodenal ulcer and - he was operated on and the drugs from the arthritis

and the duodenal ulcer didn't agree and his wound never healed and he died. I mean that's dreadful. And I think

everyone admitted it was a dreadful medical error. But by this time the whole market had gone into a very

severe nosedive of results. And - although this was a periodic happening, which I certainly had lived through, if

I said half a dozen - in my career, it wouldn't be a particular exaggeration. It might have only been four or five.

But this one possibly was more widespread and more severe than its predecessors.

When was this?

'82, '83, '84. And - the - events and the downturn in results, which as so often happens in these events, isn't a

few single catastrophic events, it's a whole - tendency of certain classes. Hopefully one class supports the other.

But if more than two or three classes together start a downturn, then the thing starts to look really rather grisly.

And - this situation highlighted - this is looking back with hindsight by me. And I don't suppose everybody -

even anybody - might not agree with me. But it highlighted the fact that the Pru's core business, the business

they were happy with, the business that made them great, the business with which they were totally comfortable,

was a really totally non-risk business. It was collecting very small sums of money, indeed pennies, from a huge


number of people. And administering this thing extremely efficiently and very well. And that's what made

them great. They'd never really been in the sharp end of the business.

But you had always known that and everyone knew that?

I'd always known it and it was why I thought that the - an institution with very long term liabilities was ideal to

own a reinsurance company, provided that they understood what they were doing. And I think this downturn

showed up that it didn't. And they got in fact the wind up.

Because you'd always presumably told them this sort of thing happened. It was a cyclical business?

I mean they are so intelligent, so imbued in insurance matters. So - so much part of the market. British market

more than international market admittedly, but they were no ignoramuses of the international market. They had

big offices in Australia, in Canada. So they knew the North American scene. But I have to say that I think this

came as a shock.

Was it a particularly bad result for you then?

Well - there was another factor that combined to make it worse. The big operators on the continent - and I had

learned from them - had always operated knowing that the results were very - up and down. That the only way

to run a reinsurance company at the sharp end of the business, which took all the sharks, was to take advantage

of the years when you made a lot of money and hide it all away. I'm oversimplifying this. And then use your

reserves, hidden reserves, to pull it out when you need it to cover up a bad year. And there were all sorts of

ways in which this was done. The continentals were much favoured by their control system. Their government

control system. To allow them to manipulate their funds much more freely than we were able to.

But may I ask you why it is necessary to hide the reserves to do that. Why not have the reserves ...?

Well, what you want to show to your clients, who are other insurance companies, is a smooth, easy, unruffled

progression. So that they feel they've got confidence in a - in a stable institution.

Couldn't you say to them "it's not a stable business, but we have reserves specially put aside to smooth out those

blips"?

Well, you can say that to them. And you can always need, whatever you do, to demonstrate very large reserves.

And that was always part of the policy. But nonetheless - the impression made by - a ship that isn't rocked by

heavy weather, gives a very good impression to the market. And this was all perfectly legal. There was

absolutely - never was a step made that didn't have the full authority of the - auditors of the Inland Revenue and

of the Bank of England. And I refer now to what we in fact did as a vehicle for this, which is to establish a


subsidiary company in the Cayman Islands. Well that has now got a dirty name. But I can assure that it was as

white as snow in our case.

This would enable you to push surplus monies as it were?

This enabled you to put what you didn't need to show as reserves. You have to show reserves that are very

strong indeed. But where there was surplus strength, and there sometimes was surplus strength, you tucked it

away.

Did that avoid any sort of tax that might otherwise ...?

It avoided tax for the time being. But that was quite understood. Because the moment you draw it back then

you pay the tax on it. But whilst it was sitting there it was earning - very considerable interest, gross. And it

was only when you actually used it that you paid the tax on it. And that was completely legitimate. And I stress

that because I always felt rather - a little bit aggrieved that the Pru in their panic, and I can only describe it as

panic, when they saw the kind of situation that the M & G could expose them to, made the M & G pack up this

company in the Cayman Islands.

Why, because they wanted all the money brought back in do you mean?

No, I don't think so. I think they were nervous that the market might get to hear what by that time had become a

dirty word, because of what was going on at Lloyds. But there was absolutely nothing - anything to be ashamed

of. In fact very much the reverse. It was a very prudent way of presenting to your clients - a stable balance

sheet. A stable financial position. And one - it enabled you to - to pull it out when - bad knocks and tuck it

away when things were going -

So was there a difficult boardroom scene about this?

No. I always took the attitude that - he who paid the piper called the tune. There was no point in my doing

more than try to be helpful by pointing out the reasons and my - the rationale for these things. Because their -

their loss of nerve came to the point where Robert Carr - Lord Carr - who was then the chairman. You

remember the chap, the politician who'd been Home Secretary. He sent for me and had a long talk to me. And

said they were very worried about the M & G. They felt that it was such a big part of their whole operation.

And it was very big in relation to their other subsidiary operations in the group. That they were very seriously

considering whether the original idea of my going back as chairman was in fact the best idea for the company.

Were you still MD at that point?

No, no, no. I had come out of the M & G. Peter Howell was now - as a sort of temporary interim measure -

And I was really waiting to go back as a non-executive chairman, not as an executive chairman. And - but I was


on the board of the Pru, on the main board of the Prudential Corporation. And - so he said they were going to

have a board meeting - in two or three days’ time I think. That he said as a member of the board I was entitled

to go there. But he thought it might be easier for everybody if I didn't. So I stayed away. And - had I been

there I think I could have - explained. But I don't think it would have had - sufficient effect. I mean they're a

powerful lot of people who have got their own ideas and they'd made up their mind now that the only thing,

under these circumstances, was to take the M & G under their own immediate control and put their chief

executive in as chairman. Well - I concurred with that because - I mean what was the alternative. Really. I

mean I could have said "well you haven't done what you said you were going to do". And we could have had a

monumental row. But it was their business. They'd bought it. They - were confronted with the problems of it

and this was their - solution. So - I felt the best thing to do was - just to let them solve it their way.

Were you disappointed though?

Well, again, with hindsight, I don't think I was.

But at the time?

At the time I was - yes, it was a fairly daunting prospect. And I was enjoying retirement and not going up and

down every day. And I could see myself having to do a whole lot more work. But - I think that - the - I've

forgotten just what I was going to say.

I just wondered if you had found it a disappointment not to get the chairmanship?

Not really - from any - position of wanting to be - No.

What about the meeting with Carr. What sort of chap was he to deal with?

Oh, perfectly charming. Very civilised. And - But you could see he didn't understand. They'd got a tiger by

the tail and they didn't know how to handle it. And - I think this was - To me it was a little bit sad that one

hadn't got that message over as to really what they were - buying when they bought the M & G.

But putting in their own man as chairman as it were. What sort of impact did they think that would have?

Well, I think their feeling there - and I can understand this perfectly well - was that the board would be that

much closer, instead of with me on the board, who they only knew as a reinsurer whose only experience and

whose only - reson datre? on their board was, they'd have someone who'd grown up with them, who understood

them much better than I understood them, to tell them the problems as and when they arose. And how to deal

with them. But of course I mean - it was quite clearly understood that the M & G has been an enormous -

success story from the Pru's point of view. I mean whatever they paid for it they've had back handsomely. And

the return on their investment has been an extremely good one. It's been a great - sort of feather in their cap,


from the point of view of their image and their - rather stuffy and unexciting image of - of industrial - what they

call 'industrial life' business. Prospects have been widened enormously by the acquisition of the M & G.

You remained a director of the M & G?

Remained a director of the M & G. And remained a director of the - of the - of the Pru. Well I saw the - very -

much more rapid loss of the M & G's independence. And this is of course what has happened. But at least I can

say that the Pru did this with their eyes open. It wasn't from the lack of my telling them. And I think too, to be -

again quite fair, that the circumstances had changed, the traumas which the international market had gone

through were such that really the niceties of dealing with a non-competitive and independent reinsurer were

slightly overtaken by the advantages of dealing with the - huge financial backing of an institution like the Pru.

And therefore the independence - attitude had become distinctly less important. And so - the different feel

with that was something that one had to stress and fight very strongly.

And what were board meetings like subsequent then to the new Pru chairman taking over. Did the whole tenor

of the thing change?

I suppose it did. Yes. I would never - you ask me whether I missed it. I would never have enjoyed being a

lacky to the Pru. And having to run the M & G as their chairman according to the Pru's dictates. If the chief

executive of the Pru was chairman, I mean those lines of communication became nil. There he was, he was

doing it. And - the kind of chairman that I had looked forward to, and the kind of chairman that I wanted to be,

was a kind of chairman that Ken Goshen had been, who I admired tremendously. Who had his own - standards

of what to do and how to look after the shareholders. And who listened to my - aspirations for the M & G and

broadly agreed with them. Which were to create in this country a reinsurer as powerful, as strong, as respected

and as successful as both the Swiss Re in Zurich and the Munich Re in Western Germany had been. And we

were well on the way to doing this. I don't think - I hope that will still be achieved. And I think it still might

be, because I think the Pru might still find their nerve not strong enough to hang onto the M & G and sell it in

the open market. And in a way that would be my ultimate hope, for the M & G to be independently owned, with

a lot of shareholders - in the market. And then develop in its own way unhampered by any of the shadow of the

mighty Pru.

I mean they would have to launch it onto the stock market?

But I think that is essentially a stage three. It may take a very long time. Because, as I've said so often, you

need a very special kind of shareholder. You need one who is ready to take the knocks and - And I mean this

has gone on forever. When my old uncle, Dick Guinness, first put the original £20,000, which isn't very much,

into the M & G, all his friends in the City said he was bound to lose his money. Well when his interest was

finally sold - tens of millions - that showed. I mean it's a very gradual, slow, but very sure growth if it's - if it's

- in proper solid hands. So stage three may well be that the Pru sell it.


James Neave C409/34 Tapes 10 – 11 (parts 19 – 21) Page 135

[Transcripts for tapes 10 and 11, parts 19 – 21, to follow]

national life stories city lives julius neave interviewed by david phillips c409/34

Documents