696 [ASSEMBLY.]

legislative Ess6embiLp,Thursdzy, 8th Septembecr, 1027.

Notice of Motion wthdrawn gplQuestions: Busselton Jetty, dreding

Railway 00.1-1, Collie ores 2, supleimported .. .. .. .. ..

Lime supplies .. .. .. .. ..Norithe Goldfields, viit Of Sir EdgewvOrth

David .. .. .. .. ..

Leave of absence .. .. .. .. ..Bills: Staolons Registration ..

Building Societies Act Amendmen~ft, 2Rt CoM.Grain, 2R. .. .. .. .. ..Land Agents, 2R. .. .. .. ..AulctioneerYs, 2R., Corn..............courts of Session, Is...............Reciprocal Enforcement of Judgments, Ill.LocalI Courts Act Amendment, Isl.........Evidence Act Amendment, is. .. ..Frenmantle Municipal TmauiwaYs and Electric

Lighting Act Amendment, returned ..

TIhI SPPAKR took the Chair at

1',"', and read prayers.

The MfI-NITER FOR RAILWAYS re-plied:

Page698e96

698696

69860707697698719724727727727727

727

4.30

NOTICE OF "MOTION WITHDRAWN.

MrI. MeCALLL'M: on thle Notice Paper

applea rs a notice Of [notioni in ily name asfollows:-

That By-law N-o. 66 under the Gov-

ernolent Railway Act, 1904, laid onl thleTable of this House by the Minister for

Railways onl 23rd A ugust, be disallowed.

I desire to intimate sayN desire to vithdrawthis notice as tile (omm1;issioner of Railwayshas fixed thle mnaticr ump.

q ['ESTIJON-If'SS ElJTO-N JETTY,DREDGING.

Mr. PICKERING; asked the Minister for

Works: 1, Will hie issue the niecessary i1-strictionms for ascertaninlg if silting hastaken place in the channel and/or b~asin to

and environing the Busselton jetty? 2, Willhe have the llecesflar"v soundings, etc., miade

to enable an estinllte of tile cost of deepen-

ing the channel and lIasill so as to providefor thle berthing of vessels uip to 27 feet?

The PREMIERl (for the Minisiter forWorks) replied: I and 2, The matter will re-cive consideration.

QUESTION (2)-RALWVAY COAL.

Collie Orders.

.\l1. ('ITE3SSON (for Mr. Wilson) asked theUMister for Railways: 1, '%hait were thleweekly orders for coal for weeks ending

August 14, August 21, August 28, and Sep-tember 3 given to eatch coal Company opecrat-ing in the Collie Coalfields districts? 2, Theotonnage of coal supplied weekly by eachcomspany for the periods above mentioned?

(1)PtoprietiyC rd..Go-operatlveWestraisa,Premie

(2)ProprietaryCardiff..CooperativeWestralanreorer

14thAug.1,624

616784

580

21stAug.1,832

618788618564

28thAug.1,810

fill777812552

3rdSept.1,672

834807635572

Total.6,5382,4793,1582,4812,259

4,200 4,220 4,185 4,325 10,91A

14th 21st 28th 3rdAug. Aug. Aug. Sept. Total.

*1,875 1,814 1,702 1,931 7,122* 620 617 817 385 2,239* 788 608 720 820 2,031

616 624 614 630 2,400507 564 . 555 578 2,204

4,200 4,227 4,214 4,359 17,006

Suppli1 es imiported.

Mr. CRESSON (for Mr. Wilson) askedthe Minister for Railwvays: 1, What was theprice paid, per ton, for large and sinall coalfrom Newcastle, New South Wvales, at wharf,Fremsantle? 2, The price paid, per tose, forlarge ando smnall coal from New-castle. NecwSouth Wales, in wagons at Fremnantle ? 3,The tonnage of foreign coal to this Stateused by the Railway Department for thethree moniths ended Augnst 31!

Thse 2IIXiSTER POR RAILWAY'S re-plied: 1, In ships' slings 44s. per tonl largeond -l0s. per tonl small. 2, In wagons 48s. 4d.large and 44s. 4d. small. 3, 727 tons, whichincluodes 82 tons used at Port I Led land andHropetoull.

QUESTION-LIME SUPPLI ES.

Mr. MNYasked the Premier: In viewof lime miot beincy pirocu rable by agriciultluristsit, accordance with the con~ditions contained inClause 13 of the Special Lease Lake CliftonAct, J916, what steps, if anly, does lie proposerto take under the Act?

'The PREMI ER replied: Clause 13 of thespecial lease providles for supply of limte ofa certain qualit y and price. As a resnlt of

tile qutestio oile com011pan lvIias beeni cois u n -cated witl, on the inattei.

QUESTION-NORTHERN (IOLDI ELDS.

1"isit of Sir Edgeerorth, floid.

Mr. CHIESSON asked the Mlinister forMIines: Will the Government take advantageof the presence iii Western Australia of SirEdgewortli David, thle eminent geologist, toarrange for him to visit andl report onl the. Cue,goldfield !

The MTIN[STER FOR MfINES replied:Thme work whlieh Sir Edgeworth David is an-dertaking will not permit of Ibis devoting thetime necessary to mnake a detailed geologicalsnrvey of the portion of the State set out inthe hon. member's question, and there is no

reason why he should be asked to undertake

[8 SEnTkantER 1921.] 697

-a survey of this particular part of the State.ally lnre than everiy other part, and thiswould entail his realmmiing here indefinitelywith a staff of field geologists. For the lion.menber 's in fotrmlationl I 'voul poin01flt out thatthe a rea nca tionedl in his question has alreadybeen, uiaplell out aid dealt with ii, BulletinsNois. 7, by IV. H. Campbell, 1f)(3, and 29, byH. P. Woiodward, 1907.

Mr. ANG ELO asked thle . Minister forMines: Will the Government take advantageof the presence iII Western Australia of SirEdgeworth Davit], the eminent geologist, toarrange' for him to visit and report on theTipper Gascoyne goldfields?

The MINISTER F -OR MTS replied:The wotk which Sir Edgeworth David is Un-dertalking will not pernmit of his devoting thetime necessary to make a detailed geologicalsurvey of the portion of the State set out inthe hon. nienmber's question, aid there is noreason why he should he asked to undertake.a survey of this particular part of the Stateany more than every other part, and thiswould entail his remaining here indefinitelywith a staff of field geologists. For the lion.member's information I would point out thatthe area mentioned in his question has alreadybeen mapped out and dealt with in BulletinsNos, 33, by A. Gibb Maitland, in 1909, and83, by H. H. B. Talbot, 1920.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE.On motion by Mr. Mullany, leave of absence

for two weeks granted to the Minister forWorks (Hon. W. J. George-Murray-Welling-ton) on the ground of ill-health.

On motion by Mr. O'Loghlen, leayo ofabsence for two weeks granted to Mr. Munsie(Hannans), on the ground of urgent publicbusiness.

BILL-STALL IONS REGTSTRATION.Introduced by the Minister for Agriculture

and read a first time.

BTTL-EIILDTNG SOCIETIES ACTAMENDMENT.

Second Reading.Debate resumed from the 1st September.Mr. PICKERiNG (Sussex). [4.42]

As one who is interested in building, I mightbe permitted to say a few words with regardto this measure. Generally speaking, I thinkmembers will welcome the Bill, which willbring all building societies under control. Iunderstand that the object of this measure isto bring all societies under the Act. There isone clause, however, with which I fear I amtnot altogether in accord, noneiy, Clause 4,"which seeks to nmake, in alterationi in thematter of auditing accounts. It must bewithin the knowledge of most members 'thatsome of the greatest swindles that have beenworked in the world have been carried on

under the auspices of building societies, andwe should, therefore, exercise great tare tosee that at least qualified auditors are en-gaged to audit thle accounts of these societies.I hope that ivl..e tile Kill i-caches thle Com-mlittee stage, tile Minister will be prepared tosubmlit all amiedanent which will ensure thatat least a chartered accounitant or ant accoun-tant who has passed the examination of samerecogniised body in Western Australia dealingwith th is particular profession, will be in-chided inl this clause. At the present time itis quite possible even as tile Act standls for anlaccountant or even, two accountants, withoutthe necessary qualifications to be permitted toaudit the accounts of building societies. AsJ have mentioned, great frauds have beencommitted in the past, and unfortunately,tile sufferers hlave generally been people ofsmall 11ens. It is very seldom that peoplepossessing coasiderable -money have to availthemselves of thle assistance of buildingsocieties. Therefore, it hehoeves us to seethat these people of 'Small means enjoy everypossible safeguar-d.

Question put and passed. 4Bill i-cad a second time.

In Committee.Mr. Stubbs in thme Chair, the Colonial Sec-

retary in charge of the Bill.

Clauses 1, 2, S-agree.d to.Clause 4-Amendment of Section 35:Mr. PICKERING: I understand that thle

Colontial Secretary has an amendment to thisclause.-

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Inmove anamendment-

That after the word ''person,'' in line Iof the proposed subsection, there be in-serted ''who has passed the final examina-tion of some society or association of ac-countants approved by the* Colonial Secre-tary and."Amn~edmnent put and passed; the clause, ats

anmended, agreed to.New clause:Ron. P. COLLIER: On behalf of the mem-

ber for North-East Fremnantle, I move-That thle following new clause be added:

-Section. 4 of the principal Act is herebyamended by the addition thereto of thefollowing to stand as Subsection 2:''Should ally society hold land acquiredprior to time,coining into operation of theprincipal Act such society shall have powerto sell or otherwise dispose of such landor to carry out any agreement alreadyentered into by it in respect of any suchland.' I -.1

Personally, I was under the impression thatthe principal, Act already contained thispdwer. However, it is in any ease -desirablethat the nmatter should be. placed beyonddoubt. L :

698 [ASSEMBLY.]

Newv On se put anzd passed.

New, clause:

lion. 1P. COIAER: Again on behalf ofthe member for North- Eaut Fremantle, Tmove-

That the following flew clause be added:-Sect ion 17 of thet pincnipalI Act is he re-hr amtendedl as follos :-A ft&r the word.to,'' in filne :1, addl the words " and s9hall

not hle extended beyond. " Strike oot theword " or'" after the word ''payv'' in line4. an iiInsert in l ieu thereof the words

m1ud (if any3).''

fi11w object of this niew clause is to Specifyclear ,-Jv that tilie liability of a sha reholel r shtallnot exte ml beyond oar.N amlont actually paidbhy hini in respect of his share and theam~ount, if any, in arrear onl such diare.

Thle COLONIJAL SECRETARY: I hare nioobjection to the natendment.

Mr. A. THOMTSONAl0ow would thle sectionlread if amended as proposedI

lfon. P1. COLLI ER: Thle amended readingof thle section would hie, ''Subject to therules of thle society the liability of any maco,-her of the society under this Act in respectof any share upon which no advance has beenmade shiall be limited to and shall not beextended beyond thle anonat actually IPaidand (if anly) in arrear oin such share'' andso forth.

\Nw clause put all( pasd

Title-agreed to.

Bill reported wvithl amendments.

BilEl-GRATN.

Second Reading.

Dleba te resumed from, thle tith September.

Mr. %lic('allitn SM IT It (North Perth)4.51: Before proceeding to reply to thle

a-iazllents whliell hlate been advanced a iiiinstthis mneasuire, I desire to take exception totilie statemuent of thle nmenmber for N orth- East

'renmantle (lon. W. C'. A ngwin ) that tileBill is at frau1d. I do tiot know that thle boo.nimnijer hadl ally ground whatever for anak-i ng s. ell a stat~eent; lie dlid not produce onetittlec of cv idelce to sbowy that there was anyfraud conniected with the introdetion of theBill.

] [on. P. Collier: Ti, usiing that word themuember for -North-East Fremnantle dlid n otinply any personal dishonesty.

,\r. Mad 'aolini S'MTIT: T do lot (Iuite.... lertalid tile (Cornishi language, but in goodEnglish and Scottish language the word

"frau.d" inmplies criminality.lo.1'. Cjollier: That was not mieanut.

Mr. ac('alI'itl SMITII: Thle implicationwould lue that the directors of this grainelevator comipany, and the shareholders inthle couparly, and the Government, and every-boidy else connected with thle Bill, wecre i'nivi-tilted in solnc criminality.

M r. Carbjoy: You know that the memberfor North-East rreniantle would not suggest;that.

Mr. 'MacCall in SMITH: The member forN orthi- at P rema ntle sa id distinctly thatthe( Bill was afraud. Now, tile Bill itself,in'iot hoI a fraud; anad ta t wvord call onlyre fe r to thle people whto p romiotedl the Bill--"a" 'meNv, thle lireetors of the company and thleslirelm (ii l - ill tile cmaim lill-al d also the(;o-ernmulen 't anrd everyvone else eonniiectedotim bel Bill and tile bulk handling schenke.

It would hle just as correct for mie to say thatthe opposition of tite miienber for North-Vast Fremantle to the Bill was a fraud.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is no anal-ogy between the two statements.

M1r. Vale~n lluiii SM I TII: The Cite remarktecferreil to thle Bill, and miy remark-

Air. SlPEAKER: Thle meinber for North-East Fremanttle merely said that thle Bill wasat fraud.

Mr. AtaeCallun, SMIITH : I say that thestatemntett which I am iniciating would bejust as title as the proposition of the memiberfor- North-East Fremaintle. However, Yiierely desire to resent the Insinuation thatany fraud is beinlg attenipted inl connectionwvith this ineasire, and to assure lieu. niem-bers that I would be one of the last to riselIce for the purpose of supporting anyimiasure which in any way involved fraud.f have onl1y to remind1 lion, members of thedIirectors concerned ill this complalny.

liu. 1'. Collier: That is no way of reply-inmg. -

Mrr. IMacCallum SM[THI: The gentlenienconnected with VIe schemie are animated, notby aniy id ea of persona i gain,, but purely bya desire to en sure the iiitroduction of a sys-tei iieih will all ow thle farmers to hlandletheirI grainl inl an ecoinonical way. Possiblyinnle loti. memib ers present do not k nowi whotire thle directors of the company; therefore1 "ill just iieintion their namecs. We have7Mr. Nutfsil Murina, who is well known to maostoft us, :is being associated with our greatwhevat g rowing iiid stry, anid other kind redindustries, as well as with the Westraianii

iniers, Ltdl. Then there is 'Mr. WV. D.

Mr. Piekerinig: 'Now wve are getting it.Mir. MNacllon, SMIfTH: Ile was a former

iiemiber of this ITonse, a mniler of theLabouir Government, and an associate of tllqmnember for North-East Freintle (Hon. W.V. A uugwin ), who stated in the Hloose theother night that the Bill was a fraud.

] [onl. P. Collier: 'No, ie did not.The M\inister for Agriculture: Hie did not

say) it was the Bill.Mr. SPEAKER: lHe duid not refer to Mr.

-Johnson.Nlr. Mfactallun, SMITTH: I was not refer-

rinlg to Bill Johnson.lion1. P1. Collier: lie did not say the Bill

was a fraud.Mr. MN~cahunl, SMITH: Thea we haive Mr.

'1'. TT. Bath, another former mlember of this

[S SsrrzaEuE, 1D21.]69

Chanmber and] a member of thle Labour Goy-erlunient inl which lie was a colleague of thlememnber for -North-East 1remantle. No onewould say that Nfr. Bath would associatehimnself twith a fraud or would ble instrumen-a I in any way in furtherig a. fraudlulent

Merasure, Another director is Mr. W.' N.Ifedges, one of Oury most ealpable businessteen, of to-lay, r think we ni-c fortunate inhaving lim iute thle diretorate. I Thea there isMkr, Warren NMarwiek, a.n old awld esteciucrlWestern Australian resident, M,%r. lDeaneII atnitiond ii: another old and resp~ected set-tler who is onl the dlirectorate ;nd tie onewo Id sui~st that lie wo--Id have anything todo with a fraudulent measure.

'Mr. 0 'Loghlen : No niaa would make aclmuirge of frauid against any one of tilc ia-Ii iv iiIna Is you have namled -

Mr. Mlacallui SM\ITFI: I believe thatJis so'.

Mr. 0 'toghlen: It is not necessary, there-fore, to proceed along thesd lines.

Yri. Mftcahun SMNIT: Ani hon. memberof this Chatiber said this was a fraud,

.Mr. Corhoy: H~e did not use the word inthat sense.

lifon P. Collier: The lion. miember knows,the sense in which the miemuber for North-East F-reniantle used that word.

M1r, Machalum SMUT II: If hie used theword, these gentlemen must have been eon-ce rned.-

Mr. Pickering: Have you mentioned thlewhtOle of the directorate?

Mr. MXachalum SMITI-: T. am a director:is well.

Mr. 0 'Loghlen: At 3 pin, to-mnorrow youwill wvake up and see what it really does mneanl.it takes you a long tiole to appreciate athinlg.

MXr. Mafncaluni SN1iTH: Having made thispoint clear-

Hun. P1. Collier: Honest in all!Mr. 2\acCallum SMTITH: Having shown

tha, we have no idea of perpetrating afraud upon this House-

Air. 0 'togllen: We shouldi really carry ainotioii to declare you honest.

I-l11. P. Collier: 11,41V I intervene, 'Mr.Speaker, w-ith a motion setting out that theyare all honest meal

Air, SPEAKER: Order, eider!Mr. '\i aeCallul SMI[lT[it: Having cleared1

"I' that point-Mr, (VLoglilen: Te your own satisfac-

tivii.Mr, Machalum SMlITH': U will refer to

thle gr-eat principle of hulk handling. Pro-posals under this heading have been beforethe puhltic for 10 years or more, It has beenadojnitted that builk handling of grain is aneconomric proposition. Bulk handling has been;1 jslaiih on the platform of every party re-presented in this Chamber. The LabourParty put it forward as one of their prin-cipal planks. They are v-cry jealous at tuineswhen other parties claim that they were thefirst to introduce the princile. It has been

a plaink in the platformi of time Liberal Party,a1ndl U. a 111 errainl it is a lii anlc in the plat-torni of thle Country Party. Perhaps, too,o'ir independent party of one will desire toownl it as :i, plaik. A.-t an v rate, bulkhanidling, has been before time peuple of West-ein Australia for a good many year,; Ilast.One Of thle first Teal :ittainptS to brinlg thesystemii into Operation was initroducied by tileLahos~r G'overnment. Hell. mnie rs willI-.lllefiner thuat when 'Mr. Bathl lv1 asMinlisterfor Ag riculture in 191:;, hie aurhorised aninquiry ihy the Advisory Boardl into thle mecritsoi ttile builk b haig si-lwio Tha.'Cbt boardIvas comnposedl ot well known niuieiand in-cluded Mr. G1. L. Suitton, ,uimr wheat expert;

S~.A_ F. l'enrse2 of the Public Works De-IiuirtmlClt, 311r. W. [,ord of the '?itaiLw~v Do-liartalelit. and Mr. F9. Stevens of time' Fre-Mantle ilarbIOUr 'l'rsr. After, taiking CX-Iastife evidence, thfe meport of the Advisory'Board was issued. Tt contained reconimenda-tions w-hich, for the- beneofit of tile Hlouse, Iw.ill read. They were as follow:-

- That the s ' steml of bul1k kindling andshipping of wheat be griaduall - intsroduceediii Western Austraia. 2. That steps betamken to iiitroluce the system at once so asto provide for the surplus above the amiountalready capable of becing handled by ourpr-esemit hag facilities. 3. That provision bemnade for handling from live Mill ion toeight muillioms bushels inl thle season 19315-16, at an estimated eost of £161,700, to-gether with an additiona-l £100,000 forrailway facilities. 4. That an elevatortrust Ile forumed to deterine tile sites andarrange for the ereetiim, design, and Work-imig of thle elevators, anid control of thereceilit, deliveiry, weighing, cleanling, in-spctionl, amid gradiing of wheat. -5. That awheat standards board hle fornled repro-senimmg tile piriduinig, the 'iniingr and ex-porting, lilt] the elevator interests. The

doyof this hoard Flhal] he to fix thestaundaI or grades of whevat nod to heara l~lpfls againlst time grading hy inispectors,and generailly to arbhitramte 441)01 dispuiteswvithi respect to the quality of wheat. 6.'Flint the grades of wheat dleterumined uponhe aIs few as am-c p~racLticable. Tentativelythe' following grades :are sllggested :-(a )No. 1. Wetetrii Australian Sti-oiig White,Cointaininlg 951 Per cent. of strong miillingg rai in, tiraasbiecnt in chiaracter. Notsollutty. (b)) No. 2, Western AustralianWhlite, containing 9.5 per cent. immmlaehedwhite mlilling gi-ain, opaqlue iii character.Net smutty. (ce) No. 2, Western Austra-lianl Wh'ite, containinlg les than 95 14crcent, of unbleachied white mnillinig grain,ojpaque ill character. (d) No. 3, No grade.(e) No. 4, Screenings. (f) No. 5, Dis-

eased wheat (e.g., smnutty wheat). 7. Thatlegislation be framied aind passed throughParfiamient at ain early date to providetile administi-ation and control of tlle sys-tem as suggested inl this report. S. Thatbefore initiatinlg the bul1k hlandhinmg system

699

400 f[ASSEMBLY.]

steps be taken to obtain informiation re-garding the different systems in use so thatthe best of each system may be availablefor application to Western Australian eon-ditions.

That report was issued in 1914 by the Gov-ermnent of which the mnember for North-EastFremntle was a member. So impressed wereflie Government of the dlay with the, desira-bility of proceeding with the erection ofgrain' elevators for the balk handling ofwheat, that a contract with a firm in Mle]-b6urne, to proceed immiediately with the work,was on the point of being signed. It wasonly because the Government went out ofoffice that the work wcas not proceeded with.I am quite certain that had the Labour Gov-ernment remained in office grain elevatorswould have been erected anid the systemwould have been in operation to-day- Hadthat been the case there would have been nonecessity for the Dill which is before us to-day. The company have drafted the Bill onthe reeommendat ions contained in the Ad-visory Board's report, because, although sev-eral other attempts have been made to dealwith this question, we felt the recommenda-tions of the Advisory Board provided themost sound basis upon which we could work.Later on the Royal Conmmission on Agricul-ture investigated this miatter and they alsoreported strongly in favour of the bulk sys-tem of handling our grain. I do not think itwill be necessary to read their recornmenida-tionls. They were, however, equalkly as strongand they recommended the Government toproceed immediately with the erection of grainelevators to handle the wheat. Followingthat, thle Lefroy Governmient inade anlattempt to deal with the matter. A Billwas passerd to antho01rise the erection ofgrain elevators, but hion. members will re-member that the Bill was rejected inanother place. At that, the mnatter wasallowed to drop. The farming community,liewever, were fully Seized with the neces-sity for the erection of elevators and weresick and tired of waiting for the Govern-ment to undertake the wvork. They decidedto take the miatter in hand and theWfest Australian Grain Growers Co-operativeElevators Ltd. is the outcomne of their dle-cision. It was decided by the farmers toraise money among themselves and erectelevators so that they would be independentof any system of Government control. Thework was made all the easier because thlepininoters of thle company approached theFederal Government who received them inavery fair spirit. The Federal Government

recognised the necessity for the erection ofthe elevators acd were so impressed withthe ease we wer-e able to, put before them,that they readily agreed to advance£E550,000 to the company. The Federal Gov-ernment -made certain conditions -becausethey wvere lending us the nioney. They re-quired us to raise fli for every £E2 the ' loutois.; It was easy- to agree to that proposal

and it was a simple way ot dealing with theposition. If they lent us £2, all we had todo was to put up £1l. We felt that therewould be no difficulty in doing that. Werealised that it wvas a good business pro-Position and the company had no hesitationin' agreeing to those terms. The FederalGovernment also stipulated that the share-holders must be grain growers. Outsidespeculators, such as millers and ether deal-ers in grain cannot hold shares in a com-pany. Furthermore, shareholders are limitedin the number of shares they can take up.It was also agreed that the company couldnot pay more than eight per cent, dividendson the capital subscribed. That, I am sure,lion. members will admit was a very reason-able restriction.

Mr. Pickering: It is higher than the%Vestralian Farmers Ltd. pay.

,%r. llacallurn SMIITH: That was themaximum. They cannot mnake a profit ofmlore than 8 per cent.

Hon. P. Collier: Yes they can, but theycani only pay dividends up to 8 per centt.

Mr. M[achalum SM EITH: Tlhere would beno sense inl making profits to hoard.

Hon. P. Collier: There would be if youhlandled grain for a number of large share-holders and charged them a high price.

Xlr. McCallulm SMKITH :Provision ismade for the appointment of a board.Another important condition 'is that theelevator company is bound to handle thegrain of every grower, whether a share-holder or not. There is to be no preferenceto shlareholders. The company must handlegrain for all alike.

Mr. Pickering: And at, the samec rate.Mfr. Macallum SMITTH: Yes. It is also

stipulated that we shaqll get thle necessarystatutory auithorityv to operate in WVesternAustralia. That, really, is the ohjm.t ofthe Bill. If the -Bill he nut passed, I amafraid it will be many years before we havebullk handling in Western Australia. Ther4dwvill not be another opportunity.

Mr. Pickering: TIhis is the second.Mr. MNacalun SMITH: It is the third

or fourth attempt, and success is now insight. The farillers havo suhseribedl over2650 thousand shares. That speaks for tllefarmers' faith in the venture. Moreover,the Federal Government having undertakento advance practically mne bulk of themionley for tile erecztionl of the elevators, itis an opportunity not to be missed, If weturn it down I am afraid it will be manyyears before another opportunlity' ocenrS.The nlemhber for North-East Fremantle(Hon. IV, 0, Angwin) in his opposition tothle Bill made ilamy incorrect statementsquite out of date, from which I shall beable to show that he is not as wellacquainted with bulk handling as lieimagines. One of bis. great objections isthe lack of informnation conerniing the Bill.Hie thought the intentions of the GrainElevator Company were centred entirely on

700

[8 SEPTEMBEMR, 1921. 70

Frenmantle; that whilst we were asking fora monopoly of the handling of grain, wewere picking out the only- port likely to bea payable proposition, and that our initen-tioci was to get that going and then tdirow%out Albany, flunbury and Ceraldton, leav-ing somebody else to conic along and takethem.

The Minister for Mines: According to thleBill, he is quite correct.

\I r. _Maecallow SM I Till We have thatpower.

The M-inister for -Mines: You may get it,but you won't if I canl stop you.

Hon. P. Colier: Wec will arnend that in

Mr. A. Thomison: I think we will.The Minister for Mines: If you take on

built handling you must do the lot or none.M.\r. 'Macalluoi SM\IT7.1: No matter what

powers the company may have under the Bill,it has no intention Of igiloring thle ontports.

M1r. O'Loghlon: Rave you any intcntiouiof starting elevators within the nest five-years?

Air. Afacalluni S~ITH: We have. We'bare not deviated one iota from our policy.We miust start somewhere.

Thu Minister for Agriculture: Will youget the same assistance from the FederalGoverninent for outports as for Fremantle?

M-r. M\accallulns SMrH: 'Just the same.W\e must start at the place which willserve the greatest number of people. Antiincidentally which will pay best. Alterthat we can go on to the other ports. Itis the intention of the company to do so.We have not called onl the zones served bythe ontporte to contribute to the capital ofthe company. Geraldton, Bunbury, andAlbanyv have not been asked to subscribe,and] will not be asked until we are proceed-ing with the erection of elevators at thoseports.

Mr. Money : Vnfortonately some havebeen asked.

Mfr, Macallui SMITH : No generalcanvass has been made of those districts.It is quite likely that one or two personsthere are so fully seized of the importanceof thle elevators, and have so much faith inthe scheme, that they have applied for shares,but no general canvass has been made.

M%-r. Money: If you get a monopoly, weougzht to be assured that it will be carriedout ill full.

MAr. Macalluni SMVITH: Ia the best in-terests; of all concerned, we intend to carryout thle powers given to us.

Thle Minister for '-\ines: Then why didyou insert that proviso in Clause 99

Hon. P. Collier: In case they get into dif-fienIties.

Mr. Machalunt SMITH: Members are atliberty to amend the clause. The companywill have no objection to any reasonableaniendilent.

Hon. P. Collier: There mnujt have beensome object in putting it in.

M.\r. _Macalum SMAITH: WeV are quitewilling to submit the Bill to a select coin-inittee, so that meinhers may be satisfiedthat thle company is bona fide. It would bemuch better to appoinit a committee to gointo the inatter becatise, although intro-duced0 by the Gover~nmenit, this in a mieasureis aL private Bill conferring a monopoly ona company. I think a. select committee shouldbe appointed to go into the question to sAis-fy hon. members that the statements put for-ward in support of the Bill am-c all based ontrulth.

Mr, Sampson: Will the farmers of Al-bany, Bunbury and Geraldfon have the rightto form a comipany, of their own in: the eventof your. companly not going ahead at the out-ports ?

The -Minister for ',%ines: Perlia pe, afterthis company gets thle plums.

Mr. 'Macalluni SMITH: Of course theywould not have the righfi to go wherever theyliked. The niemuber for North-Eaist JFrernantleheld that it was very objectionable to givethle company a monopoly. H~e shoulud remein-her that the company is debarred from deal.iag iii grain, is not allowed to buy or sellwheat. All that wev asik is a monopoly overthe elevators.

Hoc. P. Collier: That is everything! Whatelse is there?

Mr. MAae~allani S-MITH: The Leader ofthe Opposition raised no objeCtiOnl to thegranting of a monopoly for the construictionof a rai~vay fromn M1feelatharra to Horse-shoe. Not only was that -a monopoly, butit was a departure from the' established. po-]iey that the State shall on-n all railwvays.

Mr. 'Money: -Were they compelled to con-struct it?

Mr. MAlcallun SMEITH: At all events,the monopoly was granted to the company.

'Mr. Chesson: The State has the right totake over thle railway at any tunec.

I Mr. MXacallumn S3LTrTI: I am not op.posing it, but I point oLut that thme Leader ofthe Opposition did not raise any objectionto it.

Hon. P. Collier: There is no anialogy be-tw en the two propositions.

Mr. M\-acalm SMITH: No, the companygranted the railway monopoly was- a privatenilniag company, whereas this is an incor-pointed company. The mnember for North-East Fremnantle appears to have forgottenthat the Frenmantle tramuways constitute amonopoly of the ratepayers, as against theusers of the trains, Just a& this will be amonopoly of grai-growers; as against theusers of grain. Some monopolies are for thedistinct benefit of the people. The hon. main.her said there was no monopoly under theAmnericain system. He wa not correct inkthat, because in Canada thle railway comn-panics control the-wheat to the sidings, andwill not allow it to be handled- in bags, in.sistiag that it must Caine to the elevatorsin bulk. We do not ask for any such mono-poly. We are not enctoaching on the presentmethod of handling grain. To-day ithe far-

701

702 [ASSEMBLY.]

n'er, send their grain in bags to market,which the liron. niernbe i- was the cheaperystih for the Cariners. We aenter

eroacming oil tile farmers' right to seud hiswheat in bags to market. All that we askis that We Shall llUVV tie right to erect ele-vators for the purpose of handling grain inbulk. Tire fririner can still send his wheatiii bags if hie likes. 'rus it will be seen thatour uronlopolev is, niot in ii lV Wn~V Objectioniable. The Ihon. miemrber also iformied thehfouse that the 'Carnad ian grain elevatorswere undier tiovcrniiint control. That is rintcorrect. At Port A rthur, which I think liequoted, hie said there were 10 companies con-trolling elevators, arid fihat they were unableto operate sn'-eesifull ,v until thle Glovernmnentstepped inl a nd took cointrol. The hon. inurher also sail that in response to representa-tions front the farmers, tire Governments oiftwo or' threCe Of thre prorn1Circs had appoiiited,Commlissioners who had e'stablished terminalelevators at v;11rifu- ports.' In" cider to show1how wide of the mark was that statement,I shall quote from the report of the ChiefGroin Coninus sioner of' Canoda, Dr. Ale ill,presented to the .Minister for Trade andCommuerce.

Mr. Pickerig: Fu'r what year?

Nfr. faecalluni SM ITH;I For 191.4. Dr.McGill stated-

There are 29553 elevartors. licensed in thethree provinces. Their total storage ca-pacity is estinnateil at 31,720,000 bushels.None of them is owned 1)r tire DominionGovernureri10t Or the rakilwayv eOnrpoies, aridini Alberta. and Saskatchiewan none of themis owned by% thre provincial Governments.Tire MLanitoba G overnment owned andoperated a line of elevators for- a time, hut.subsoqnent ly leased thenm to a company.Two or three -iriunierpalities experimentedwith tlneur also, but not wxith thle happiestresults. 'With these exceptions ill the ele-vators are owned and Operated 1r euvrco-mercial companries or fariniers' co-opera.tire companies.

[Tine lepntvy Spreaker took the ('hair.]

Mlr. Pickering: 11 as there lien-n any chairgesince 1944

Mslr. 3LNarCallnnn SM11TH 1 No0. 'rhoieas.iirg in- thre iovr'rrnent of Manitoba oftheir elevators to a c~o-operative eotmany isconfirmed by a work onl the "'Craini Trade ofWestern Canada,'' publislred by a well-knownnieimber of the grain t rade olpratiliL in o01-position to the co-operative eleva1tors. 'llmisauthorit *y, referrig to the operationr of Gov-erunient elevators by the Iianitoba Ciovcrrr-meat, says-

This was carried onl for tw-o years. sitil-ciently long to Lire it a fair trial. Eachyear there was a heavy loss. Their eleva-tors were then leased to tire Gmrain Growers'Grain Company whno now operate thre saiiiAhbuildlings. not eily for warehousing, hutalso for nivrt-iintising of grain. Although

their operations showed a loss at first, itscents now to he on a profitable basis.

The grain elevators of Canada, therefore, arenet tinder the control of tire Glovernmnent ormrunicipal autlrerities as the memrber forNorth-East Fremnantle stated. Threy are rnentirely by co-operative companies and theirOperatirns, covering a fairly long period aridover ',000 elevators, have been successful,whereas when tire 0 over-nirrent or nrrrrrriipalauthorities tried to run them, they were riots urcv.essf nil. Tre lrorr. iremrber 's argumentthat it would be better for the Government ofWestern Australia trr rurn these elevators isnot borne out by the experience in Canada.Tire lion, member also referred to the preseirtsystem of fixing the fair average quality fnr'client. T think lro said thfat tire fairaverage quality "-as fixed by two officers ofthe Department of Agricurlturre. Thbat is quriteerroneours. It is fixed hby thre grain cOiilitteeof thre Chamrber of Conmnerce andi a very poorsystem it is. I. understand that tire gr-aincomniittee. of the Chamber of Conmerce gettheir agents to send in samples of grain fromall over the country, and naturally the poorest.class of grain is sent in withr tire object ofreducing tire standard to which they hare toconf!ormi It is anl ont-of-date system of ni--riving at the fair average quality.

Mr. Pickering: You mean the present xye-team here?

Mr. Macallurn SMITH : Yes, and ifthis nieasure accomplishes nothing else, itwill do something to improve the preentsystem. It will enable us to arrive at nnaccurate standard.

Mr. Pickering : Will it increase thlestandard?

Mr. MacCallous SMITH : That will de-ponld largely on the board. Thre method ofarrivirrg at the standard, however, will bemore reliable than tire present system. In-steadl of it being in the hands of thle graianruerinr in thre cityj it wvill be in the bandsof the hoard to be appointedI under this men-sirie It will be a step in tire right direction.

Air. Mann: Will it be accepted by theChamnber of Coirimeree?

Mr. UMacallrn SMITH: Yes, and whrenouir Nlrest is sold in Errrope it Will bear threlintl-mark of tire Governmnrt upon it..

'-%r. AMario: -Will the overseas markets nc-teit it?Mr. Mflahuim SMITH : Yes. The

ineniher for North-East POreirnrtle 'was Car;-verited to know whether tie elevators wuldpay, ari quoted a lot of figures to shlro timerwould nor. The liron. irerirber reinded rueof the story of the Indian reginrent.An anti-teinperanee lecturer stated thatin one year .50 per~ cent. of the teetotal-lers died, while the mortality amongstdrinkers in thre regiment was very muchless. When his statement was invesRi-g atedl, it was, foitnd that there irad been onlytwo teetotallers in the regimenit and that oineoif tirerr hrad died. CIOrsecitly tlre% fi1Zureswere rather misleading. The sanre might be

702

[8 SEFTEmBER, 1921.1 0

said of the hon. member's figures. On thequestion of cost, Sir Timothy Coghian, in1908, investigated this matter on behalf ofthe Government of New South Wales. fni hisreport he stated-

Somec of the objections raised againstI he adloption of bulk handling for Austra-lian trade must be considered more Or lessfanciful, seeing that Argentine wheat,which has somewhat similar characteristic.,to Australian, is brought here in large andncreasinrg quantities in bl1k, and F can

inrd no complaints regardilug tire manner itw~hich it is handled. On the whole there a p-pears to be a saving of about 2s. per tont.n thre London market on bulk shi pments.

TIhlat Ivas Iris conclusion after an exhaustiveinquiry when the Government of New SouthWales were contemplating the expenditure ofa very l arge gain' of money for the erectionof elevators. The London and Indlia DockCompany supported Sir Timothy CoghIan~conelirsions in these ivors-

The only com par ison of thre relative pricesfor wheat ex ship in bags and bulk is withregard to A rgenrtine grain, and these lprieesare identical, contracts usually being forhulk or bags andl the weifght of the bag- isconrsidered paid for as grain.

Tire Ihon. member also inade a strong point ofthe fact that the farmer was being paid forthe bag as if it were grain; the bag wasweighed in with the grain and was paid foras grain. The her. mremrber- omitted to men-tion that the bags, even at to-day 'a prices,cost s. a dozen. A bag weighs about 21/lbs., and althnough the farmer is paid for Irisbag as if it wvere wvheat, hie really losesq 4'/ 2dl.or' each bag when wheat is Ss. a bushel.

Mr. Mfann: Parmners will still require bagsunt ii country elevators are provided.

Mir. Macalluni SMITH : Quite so. Itwill take a year or two to erect them andwe cannot proceed with the work until wehave statutory authority. No doubt bagswill be used largely for sonme considerabletime, hut when farmers realise the advan t-ages of bul1k handling, tlncv will soon ceaseusing bags.

Air. Pickecring: Is 79. 6d. a do-zen a highprice for bags?

Mr. MTacaillani SMITHI: No, a low price.Blags cannot be b)ought for 7s. 6d1. a dozento-day: v they would cost 9s. 611. Before thewvar the cost was -5s. 611. to 6s. a dozen, butI dto riot think they will ever come down tothat figure again.

.,r. Latham: You can get them for 7s. 2d.Mr. Machalun SMIPph: That depends on

whnere they are punrchased. while dealingwitin prices, it ,lighnt he worth mention ing theLondon scale of harndlirng charges. The latestavailable figures are for 1920, and they showthat the cheapest rate for handling wheatin bat's is 4s. 7d. per ton higher than forhadling wheat in bulk. This appncrimtes1%'bl. per bushel 6r Is. per quarter in favourof the bulk handling. The umember forNorth-East Fremnitle, in quoting his fignres,

i-barged up~ the whole cost of handling, st-age, interest and depreciation attendant ona 16 mnillion bushel system to fory millionbushels of wheat. We have taken out esti-mates for a scheme capable of handling 16million bushels iii one season.

Mr. Pickering: That is in excess of thepresent production.

11r. KaeCalluni SMTITH: It is in excess ofthe present output, but we realise that ourwheat production is going ahead by leapsarid bonds, and that in a few years' timewe shall be exporting far greater quantitiesthan we are at present. The country is beingopened up arid settled, ad in the ordinarycourse our export of wheat will be very muchnincreased. Therefore, we mnst make theiceessary provision. It would be foolish torestrict the capacity of our elevators to thequantity of wheat produced] last year. Thehon. member in his criticism, however, tooktire whole cost of the 16 million bushel schemeas agaimnst our present ex'port of four millionbushels. This was very nrnfair. We do Dotronteurplate erecting a 16-million bushelplant right away, hut we are making pro-vision for what we arc likely to require inthe next two years.

lIoan. P. Collier: We shall export more thanfour million bushels.

The Premier: A four million hnshel ter-minal elevator can handle 20 millionbushels.

Mr. Macallum SMITH: This only pro-vides for the terminal elevator at Premantle.That is the weakness in the hon. member'scriticism. He also made an undue allowancefor depreciation.

Hion. W. C. Angwin: Three per cent1MNr. Macallum SMITH: The elevators wifll

be mostly constructed of concrete, which inn-proves with age. The allowance of three percent, is too high.

]Ton. W. C. Angwiu: The depireciation onmachinery is as high as 10 per cent., andthree per cent, is a very fair average toall -ow.

itraNfr. Malcialuni SMITTH TheVitraGovernument in 1916 decided to investigatetire bulk handling system. They eugauedMessrs. ?vretcnlf & Co., the same firm whichI anderstand advised the Labour Governmentir) 1914. This firm has a large connection,and is repunted to be one of the leading firmsconcerned in the erection of grain elevators.They went into the matter very exhaustively.I have here a copy of their report, wvhicbany hon. member may peruse. Thereare over 100 pages in the volume.

lion. 'W. C. Angwvin: They went into it soexhaustively that they turned it down.

Mr. Macalluma SMITH: Not at all. Theyshow conclusively that the saving by thebulk handling system would range from2.4d1. to 3.5d., per bushel. They went mini-untely into the qurestion and found that thiswnould be the result. The Victorian RailwayCommissioners also went into the matter anddrew upt a report commenting upon the can-

703

704 EA6$EM33LyKI-

elusions arrived at by this firm. They prac-tically bore out what 'Messrs. Metcalf & Co.had said. The 'Railway Commissionersstated-

With wheat at 4s. 6id. per bushel andbags at 10s. per dozen, the bag loss perbushel, namely, 2.658d. added, mnakes thetotal cost under the bag system 4.98 1d,With wheat at :3s. a busheal and bags at7s. Gd.. the additional bag loss, niamely,2.05d., mnakes, the total cost under the bagsystem 4l-.37.3d. The advantage to theh ulki systemk in respect of export wheattherefore varies f rom a minimium of1.793d0. to a maximium of 3.231d, perbushel The advantage to the hulk hand-huiig system in respect of wheat for homeconsumlptionl tliere.f ore varies fromn 1,452d.to 2.89d. per bushel, andl having regardto both classes of wheat the mninimnum sav*ing per bushel is 3.4,52d. and the maxnimn.3.231d. as stated above.

They also say-(a) That the production of wheat and

the conditions surrounding the handling,storage and miarketing in this State aresuch that thme hulk handling systemn may beadopted with advantage to the farner, therailwvars, and the State generally.

They thent went on. to say that the sqystemshould bo jatrodluced and maitained on aself-supporting basis. Mfessrs. Mfetcalf & Co.inudo an offer to tile New South Wales Gov-erment, who were contemplating the erec-tion of silos. They offered to construct thesilos themselves at their own expenlse, andhand the silos over to the Government at thecad of 2.5 yecars. free of charge. in tie mean-tinie they' were going to handle the wheat at2d. ier bushel less than under the hag sy's-tern. This firml MUSt have been satisfied withthe prospects or they' would not have madethis offer, and must also have been satisfiedthat tile bulk hanidling system was cheaperthan the hag s 'ystem. They were going tomake so mnuch umoney Out of the concern thatal1 the end ot 2.9 years they could hiand thesilos over to the Government.

Hon. ANF. C. Angwin: They are only ad-visory engineers. They are not contractorsand could net have (lone the work.

Mr. Mfacllum SITTh: They we reprepared to find the money and( the NewSouth Wales C-oveiuument were sorrY theY dlidnkot acept the' offell.

lion. XVY. C. Angwin: We heard that bie-fore in a nether Case, Which sonic of yOnstrongly condeniiied.

Mr. Mlacoalluni S-MITH: Reference hasbeeni made to the necessity for having baggedwheat in a ship's cargo. The mniber forNorth-East Fremantle statedl that notwith-standing the fact that a large amiount ofwheat was carried in hulk, it was niecessaryto have a certain quantity carried in bags. Ithink the lion. mnember said that 25 per cent.of the whea,:t sent overseas hod to be bagged.

I-ten. NV. C. Anwgin:- I said a third.'Mr. 'Macallumi SMITH: That is worse

still. A great deal depiends on the structure

of the vessel. There must 1)e a certainamnount of bsgged wheat in order to stabilisethle rest of the cargo. In1 Canada ninny1. of thmeships aire specially built for tile earriage ofwheat, and iii Ontario the grain is bagged ina certain way.

'Mr. tathaint: These bags are speciallyprovidedn for the ship.

Mr. 'Mncfallumn SMAITH: The graimn isspouted into the hlcd in bulk, and thme cargois trimmned upl to a certain level below thedleck, so as to allowv of the required numberof tiers of bags to be placed on top. Thebags belong to the ship. They are filled bytwo gangs of men, one party holding open themouth of the sack, and the other filling thesack with grain by nieans of two-hiandlescoops. The bags arc neither weighed norsewni. They are tied, and then stowed on thetop of the bulk cargo. When the vessels ar-jive in Great Britain the ties are cut and thegrain turned out into the balk cargo andelevated w'ith the whole.

Hon, W. C. ngivin: That is so in someparts.

M r. Macalluia SMfITH: Wheat isbagged in this way merely to stabilise therest of the cargo. It is (lone by the ship, andthe bags are inade of special material so thatthey will last a considerable time.

Mr. Pickering: Most of the ports inEurope are now handling wheat in bulk.

Mr. 'Machalum S-MITH: NYearly everypert ia Europe is specially provided withbulls handling facilities.

Hon. W. C. Angwin: There ame perhapsthree or four such ports in England. I mnadeinquiries into the matter n-hen I was there.

Mir. M-\oney: These facilities are found inmany ports in England.

M Tr. Mfacalluin SMITH: Assumngthat there aire oiilyv four ports in Eiiglandfurnished wvith hulk handling facilities, thefact remains that S30 per~ cent. of the grainimported into Great Britain is handled byeleva tors.

Mr. Davies: Aiid carried. iii bulk.Mr. Mtac lluin SITIT~H" Yes. Thle

"ember, for Sussex referred to Continentallvurts. E canl give him a list of these ports.Amiongst ethers mnay' be mentioned 'Marseilles,1-Iavre, Roucum, Anisterdam11, I tamnburg, all1 ofwhich, besides many others, are furn ishedw-ith facilities for handling wheat iii builk.Inl two or three pimecs where wheat is de-livered) on the Continent in bags, the bags areopened ait the part and] the wheat emptiedinto lighters, and taken up the camnals mmmdrivers in bulk. This shows that the houlkhandlimig systcmn is recognised as the moresuitable. A fumnier cail still use bags if liewishes to do so, and if hie thinks that huagsaire cheaper and that thisq offers the bettersystem for tie handling of his granim. TheBill does not take from himi the right to usu.bags.

Mr. Lathamn: THc can still send his mooneyto Calcuitta.

I tr. AlacCallurn 'SMITH. The Grainh'levator Company will have nothing to do

704

[8 4EPTEMIVR5,m 1021.170

with the wheat poo01, or with thle buying orselling of wheat. It will sinnply be storingthe wheat.

Mr. Pickering: Te could not conflict withit.

Mr. 'MaeC~dlum SAMI': 'Fn no warwhatsoev-er. Theo wheat is merely placed inthe control of thle Company for its traqnsferfromt one plave to another, and for its grading,and( cleaning. The insinuation that the comn-panty would play any pa rt in r-aisi ng the priceof wheat, or in traileking ia that eonunoditvis not feuniled onl fact. All we are concernedabout is tile elimination of thle great wastethat is taking place in the handling ofwheat. We wish to reduce the farmner'scosts. We desire to improve his marketing.Every grower is entitled to tile privilegesof the grain elevator system, and there isno compulsion whatever. The member forNorth-East Fremantle, in concluding hisaremarks, urged the company to proceedslowly, and generally not te be in a hurry.That, let aic say, is the policy of the com-pany's hoard. We have not rushed things,but are going along slowly, and finding thispolicy to'our advantage. For instance, thereis the fact that the coat of materials hasbeen decreasing. MNoreover, new inventionsare being bronglit under our notice every'week.

Honm. P. Collier: You have not been ableto go' any faster; you had no statutoryauthority.

Mr.- MaeCallumn SM [TI'T: We have beenanticipating this measure.

Hon. P. Collier: That is a nice state ofaffairs, 1.o be anticipating Parliament!

Mr. MAaCalluni SMI-I: Alt is indeedan awful state of affairs. N-'o doubt that iswhere the fraud conies in. However,' thleboard thought it wise to make all possibleinquiries regarding the best systems of bulkhandling.

Ron. P. Collier: It is a new way of doingbusiness, an :yhow, to anticipate the autho-rity of Parliament.

'Mr. iAlacCnllumi SMITH : W1 e are notcommjitted to anything; we ire merely feel-ing our way and ascertaining which is thebest systemn to introduce. That, briefly, isthe policy of the board. Let me give anlinstance where it has been to thle company'sadvantage not to proceed too quickly. Ouroriginal scheme contemplated the erectionof elevators at country sidings. We learnnow that it is quite possible we may beable to do away with country elevatorsaltogether. The cost of erecting thoseelevators at sidings was a very consider-able item, because in each ease it was neces-sary to instal machinery for working theelevator, and to provide power, and tostatiou skilled labour on the spot. For alarge part of the year that labour would beidle, and the plant and machinery wouldalso be idle. But now we hear of a systemof travelling elevators-elevators that wilproceed on wheels along thle railway from

siding to siding. Such an elevator sucksthe wheat out of the storage bins and de-posits it in the trucks, Thus tile one staffhandling the travelling elevator, which willhave its own power, can effect. a very conl-siderable saving, as compared with tile sys-[tent of a number of elevators at varioussidings. Thc smaller sidings, which fearedthat they would be left out of the scheme,will be able to have their wheat handledby the travelling elevator. I mention thisjust by the way, in order to show that wehave been considering a new idea which, inall probability, will be one of thle f~tturesof tile scheme when consunmnated. Now,with regard to bulk handliag generally, Ihave here a report by Sir Thomias R. Price,Commissioner of Railways and Ports in thleUnion of South Africa.

[Tile Speaker resunacc thle Chair.]

-Kln.W C. Angwin: At high authority,too.

Mr. 'Macllngo S-MI'rl-: That gentle-nian visited Europe, the United States andCanada for the purp~ose of investigating thestorage and handling of grain-mnaking thetrip) especially for that purpose.,

flea. W. C. Angwin: And does hie notsax' that the system of bnlk handling wasunsnccessful until it was controlled by theGovernment through conmmissioners!

'Mr. Majcallunt SATiTH: South Africanconditions are very similar to Australianconditions. I think the member for Nt\orth-East Fremantle made a point of it that con-d itions in theLUited States and Canada werenet simnilar to ony-s. But this report was madeby a gentleman who went folly into thewhole question, having in mind conditionsvery similar to those obtaining in this State.

.\rt. M.Noney: TaIl Cemarlia it is winter whenhere it is summner.

MrIt. Machalun SARTII: in thle course ofhis- report, which was presented to tile Plar-linnt of time South African anion, SirThomas Price says:-

It has to be remenhere4l that ilnAmieriva, thme Unitedt StOtS began with aplan of bagging, but very sooni abandonedit b)eause Of thle exIpnse and thle timeC C-enuiied in doing the work; and Canada,with no inducement whatever than to se-cure the best andl cheapest results, adoptedthle later practice of thme United States inpreference to the European method of bag-ging. All, wvith one accordl, ard abundantlysatisfied they- actedI wisely in Canada. in,doing so; and, if it hand not been donefromt fihe outset, that they would vcrys0oon have bcemn driven by force of circum-stancers to. take thle step. 'Furthcr. the rail-;vav staffs in thle United States 'and Call-ada, from railn-ny presidents down to theforemlen. in charge and the labourers em1-ployed- in the handling of the grain, areequally% unanimjous and untaverng in theirconviction thant buolk handling of - grain isthe quickest, c heapest, ndi altogether the

705

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best method. Thle testimlonly of steamshipCompanies is to thle samle effect,

In the face of that opinion we wockd be veryfoolish if we did niot mnake some effort tokeep pace with the ipl-to-date methods (ofother countries in handling one of their chiefproducts. Sir Thoin-is Price goes on to Sany-

I was Very careful at every placethroughout my tour to seek unhbiassed testi-mnon'y as to. the experience in practice ofthe handling of grain in bulk onl the rail-

* AV svas ad onl thle steamers. I consultedsbmmhpownerAs, thre managing directors,

managers, and other principal officers of*the great steamiship linies trading to and

from America: captains and othepr staff ofthe steamers, including thle Steamers onthe hikes, rail way Ipresidents, vice-presi-dents, officers, and staff, down to thle mienactually handling the grain; grain buyersand sellers; brokers; producee agents; cornproduce and commnercial exchange presi-dents and secretaries; farmiers, and repre-sentatives of farmers' co-operative so-cieties; Govern tmnt Ministers and theirlprinlcipal ierrmanent officials; thle Directorof Agriculture for thme United States an11dhis principal officers; the president, secre-tary, andl other officers of the United StatesRailway mond Commerce Comimission,arnong many others. And I witnessetd theactual oIperation repeatedly for myself, Thegentlemen I interviewed differed in opinionand in practice onl matters of detail, suchas whether it a-as better to ceratruct thestorage biais in the elevator round orsquare in shape; whether the weighing oftime grain should take place before or afterit was cleaned; whether automatic me-ehanicat weighing or recording the weightsby a certificated weigher was preferable;whether the terminal elevators should bepolaced near the river, lake, or sea front-age, or alternatively set back a consider-:ahle distance to give room for nierehl-disc warehouses, and connect the elevatorswith time water- frentngcs by means. of anextensive system of covered-inl belt conl-veyors (generally spoken of as 'gal-lories') and[ so an. But on the questionof bul1k handling of grairi onl railways and]onl ships, thre provision and use of eleva-tors, and the advantages of thle belt sys-tern of conveyor over any other meanis forhandling and conveyance, the consensus oftestimony was quite remnarkably completeand emphatic. Everyone held they werequicker, cheaper, and in ever)- way moresatisfactoryv, and that it would hi' iniprae-tieable to handle the present volunme ofthe grain trade by any other means. Fuir-tlher, it was sa-id "'that any attempts to re-vert to bag loading would throtle a largepart of thre existing trade, wxoutd ptt antend to expansion, would increase railwaywmorkinig costs and diminish the servicefrom the rolling-stock, would nlecessitateincreased] accomnmodation at stations. andso increase the cost of transporting and

handling thle grain as to either grievouslycripple the producer or increase the costto the buyer-prolbably both."

Tme Victorian Royal (ninmission 's. reportcomments on thle foregoing-

Every word of the last sentence is pe-cluliarly applicnble to the Australian bagmethod, as farmers are beginning to re-alise. Sir- Thomas Price wvent abroad seek-ig for a. system to supplant the SouthAfrican system of handling maize in bags.Thlat lie was absolutely' converted to thekmodern method of bulk handling is iml-catedl by his next paragraph: "My iii-qiiries arid observations eonstraimied mleto come to thle same conclusion, and thatn-hat is; elined in the ease of Americawouild be found to be the ease ini SouthAfrica aliso in the min."

So far as T can see, Sir Thionias Price's re-port says nothing ahout any necessity for thesystem beimg under Government control.With regard to the bulk handling iii vessels,Sir Thomas Price says:-

There was the samne eniphatic uniform(opinion in respect of the expedition, lessei'c~ost, and( other advantages on the wholein favour of bulk handling of grain insteamers. Great surprise was expressedto nip by the steamship- authorities inAmerica that it was thought there would,in face of thme well known results, be anyhesitation on the part of steamers tradingwith South Africa, in welcoming tirechange. One of the authorities who spoke to110 to tis effect was the representative ofa1 steamship line that had, maniy yearsago, insisted for a time enl grain tliat hadbeemn brought by rail to New York in bulkin thle truceks being re-baggedl before beingshipped. After- experience of bulk ship-1mnent they are not dispiosedI to revert tobag shipment.

Simimlar views were expressed to Sir ThomasPrice ini Hamburg, l~ortcrdlam, and Amster-dam. The objection formerly advanced, thattheme were 110 facilities for bulk handling atoutports, has largely disappeaired. We havehad various statements as to the sas-ings tobe elicted. Those savings mulst amou10nt toa very considerable s9in. Tf this State haulsaved thle cost of thme bags used last year,it n-ould have saved something like £C100.000.

MNr. I ,tiain : All that mioney wemnt out ofthle State.

Mr. Mleahunt SM ITI t: Yes, to Inifa.Hon. P. Collier: If wou hail had thle ele-

vators, you would have saved that anmount. inommo year?

'.\r. 'Macalluni SMITH1: No; but we wouldhave saved that monley going out of thle State.

Hfon. P. Collier: That is a different thimg.MVr. 'Mactallum SMITTIT: If lnst year we

had had thle elevators. Which tile Goverminetof 1914 propose(] to erect in that year, wewouold have saved something like £800,000going out of this country for bags alone.

lion. P. Collier: But what wvould be thredifferenlce beta-cell cost of handling in bulk

706

[8 SEPTEMBER, 1921.]77

andl cost of handling in bags on last year'sshipments?

H-on. WV. C. Angwin: The total value of thebags on file largest export of grain that everwent through Fremnantle was only £66,000.

Air. Mfachalum SMITH: What price is theho,,. memiber allowing for bags?

Hon. NXV. C. Angwin: I am allowing Ss. perdozen.

Air. Macillum SMITH: If the hon. Incan-her had been a grajin grower, hie would haveknown that lie could not have bought bagsat that price last year. Mfy contention, flow-ever, is that grain elevators would have savedthis State sendilag beyond its borders lastyear a stun of approximately £300,000 forbags alone. I do not say that that will bethe case every year henceforth, seeing thatthe price of bags is falling. This counstry]last year sent away £8300,000 merely forbags.

lion. P. Collier: And in any ease this coun-try would have sent away a considerable pro-pnrtion of that ainou,t-even jf w~e had hadelevators.

Mr. MacCallurn SMITH: B~ut nothing likethe full amount. A great deal of that moneywas sent out of the country unnecessarily. ifonly the member for North-East 1Prenmantlehadl a farm,, he would be in favour of thisBill. I think I have covered the groundfairly well, but I wish to enplisise thatthere is no question whatever about the ad-vantages of bulk handling. They are adl-in itted all ratitaid. Bulk Ihanadlin g miust co liein this Stote. Wichol is thle best method ofbulk hanadlin~g is, no (lollblt, o pen to a rgutle it.Solie people0 hiold-

flon. W. C. A ugwini :That the ltme is not.yet ripe for bulk handling.

Mr. Macallan SMITH: We must makea, start sooner or later, huat I acknowledgethat we onu"lt to hasten slowly.

Sitting suspended fi-al 6.15 to 7.30 pa.

MrIt. Macallan SM ITH: Before tle teaadjournment in reply to a question by theLeader of the Opposition, I said that theanumint of money sent out of the State ]lastyear for b~ags wvas ap~proxim~ately £00000.Even if we reduced that figure to £200,000it would still represent a considerable sumof none ,v. Thle question was whether therewould he any monetary sav ing to the farmersthrough the builk handling systenm in lien ofthe bagging system. As to that aspect, suip-posing there was no saving to the farmerswhatever, we must remenmber that a verylarge sin of money will be spent in thisState. Thait money would be spent in labourand tlse country, directly and indirectly,would real) the benefit.

Air. Willeock: Tflit is a poor argument.Mir. MsaeCnlluul SMITE: The beol. usen-

her should tell that to his electors.Mr. Willeock: It would be useless expendli-

ture under any circunmstances.

Mr. Macalluni SMITH: If the cost tothe farnier were the same for bulk haundlingas it would be for bags, spending the mneyin thle country would be far preferable tosetidiig that money to India, for instance.

Holl. NV. C. Angwin: How can you spendthe money if you doe iot get it?

Mr. Willeock: 'You would be usin~g capitalexpenditure for the purpose you suggest.

Mr. A. Th~omson: They will still have toget tbags to a certain extent.

-lr. MacC'allun, SMITH: I amn dealing withthe two aspects mentioned. By using bagswe have to send £300,000 out of the eouirtry.I will assumec for the sake of argument thatit costs the farmeur just as ,,iuch money tohave his grain dealt with under the bulkhandling system. ln that event the moneyspent under the latter system) would be keptin this State.

Ho,,. P. Collier: That would not justifythle expenditure of a huge amount of capitalmerely for keeping that money in the count-try without making a saving.

Mr. NhicCalln SM FTIH: I1 think it is agood idea.

Hll. P. Collier: The farmers did not lookat it fromi that standpoint.

Mir. Macallum SMITHL: Tlint is one ofthe reasons for thiir su pport.

Mir. Lathami: It is a mlatter of patriotism.Haon. P. Collier: That was miot one of the

reasons.Mr. IlaeCalini SMI[TB: It "-as one of

the reasons. If that mnoney is spent fin West-erni Austral ia in wages, the labourers andothers ,bo benefit from the expenditure ofthat monley willI hav'e mnore to spend onl tIeprodufcts of tile far,,.

Hion. 1'. Collier: Y'ou sa 'y now, that theformmer wants to keep the money in the c-on.try, Yet at the same tune lie is crying outagainlst thle tariff and wants to send his

onley out of the em, utry fur thle phibrlaseof mmmnechliie r.

Ai.Lathio,,,: ha that ease they a IC hand-ing it over to somneone else.

Mir. MacCallIn, SM ITH: It ,nust be adl.mitted btY all sides of time liOUse th~at thereis no qiuestioni as to thle desirability of bill!(handling of graimn. Every authorityi is agreedonl tlmat point. Bul1k handling is withoutdoubt thle host systeri for dealilug with grain.It Imas been in use in C'anada ;amd Aineriea,for soit(, 40 y-enrs, anmd it stands to trasonthat if there were a ny1thming wrong with bulkhmandlinig, those counltries would be lotl, to con-tinn i peratinig ailder such a systeni. fnsteadof that, however, othl- coiluntries slid, as thle.Argentine, South Africa, and other graimn-produIc-ing -ounmtries arme gradumall v i ntroiduinthis systenli. Wrestern, Australia muilst Lee1 ,pace with other Countries. We are- dependimigto a Inarge extent o,, our- output of wheat. Itis becoming the staple industry of WesternAuistralha and we must provide modern andup1 -to-date methods of hiandling graini. Thetime is opportune for initiating a balk hand-ling sehemne. ].t mumy take a year or two be-fore the elevators calm b~e erected, and the

707

708s [ASSEMBLY.]

sooner we have the power to initiate the sys-teal the better it will be for all concerned.The member for North-East Frenmantle (Hon.W. C. Angwivi) preached a ga-slow policy. Hefavou red marking time and doing nothing.That policy does not commend] itself to me.

Hion. P. Collier: You have already ad-initted that thle nark-time policy' imposed bythe Legislative Council last year has bee,,beneficial to you.

Mr. AMacalluin SMITH: We have gaincilsomething in that direction hut there is alimit -to the mark-time poli-v.

lion. P. Collier: Have volt jeachedl thatlimit!

.1r. liacailluni SMIlTH-: Yet, wie have.We. want the sta tutory' authority' to comimenceoperations. If members feel that this Billprovides too much authority to the company,J. think we are quite prepaired to have thecondition restricted or reduced. I think weare agreeable to the concessions being re-duced if menmbers think we are receiving toomuch. I think the best way would be toappoint a select committee to go into thewhole question. They could consider thle Billfrom start to finish. We have no desire toobtain any concession that would be ijuriousto the best interests of the country. All wewant is a reasonable Bill -to safeguard ourposition.

Mr. Pickering: Do yon not think the Hillcould be amended in Conmmittee to meet anyobjections?

Mr. Macalluin SMITH :[do. but nodoubt it will haive to be amended. It is therule tlmat a select committee of the Houseshall be appointed to consider Bills which areof a private nature. I take it this Bill ispractically a private Bill. I wish to assurehon. nienibers again that it is the polic 'y ofthe company to initiate a system that willIgive satisfaction to the grain growers ofWestern Australia and the people who aredepending onl them.

,\r. WTLLCOCK (Geraildton) 17.40]: [ an,inl favour of the bulk-hang] hag system, and Irecognise, as the miember for -North Perth(MNr. Maclluni Smith) has stated, that thetrend with regard to the handling of wheat isfavourable to the hulk-hanidling sysrtem.When wve realise that the systent has been ex-tenided to so many- ports in different parts ofthe world, it cannot be regarded as a failure.I was very inuch impressed, liow-ever, with thespeech delivered by the member for North-East Fremantle (Holl. W. C. Angwin) .a-garding the commnercial difficulties of thisState. The figures he gave and the quotationsfrom impartial sources lie placed before mein-hers would seemi to indicate that-the men,-heor for N orth Perth is a Soteliman and assuhl should counsel delay-he would be betteradvised if hie counlslled delay, instead ofrnshing this proposition.

Mlr. Pickering: We have been rushing itfor the last year or two.

M.\r. Lathanm: F or the last four years atany rate.

Mr. 'Maecalluin Smith: It has been beforethe people for thle past ten years.

Mr. W [LLCOCK: f wishi to repudiate thestatement that the Labour Party as a partyare0 opposed to this Tneasure because it willresult in thle lessening of labour available atthe ports. That is a statemen01t Which haslbeen, made in d ifferenit iparts of the Statepurely for political propaganda purposes.

M\r. M ax all nt Smith : [ gave you creditfor being thle first party to have bulk handlingon yOu)' platf orit.

)r. WFL -LL(0C1 : That is so. Onl theother hland we lia ve lid people going thIirou ghtile country districts endeavon ring to stiniu-late in~terest in thuis movement, and they havebeen making use of these statements as politi-cal propaganida.- They- have told] the peoplethat they- should take shares in the company;that the Labour Party are against this Billas they are against the farming communityall tlhe time, and further, that the LabourPat-tv are upl against thle principle ofbulk handling because it Will inca a less.emiploym ilent for the lilipers. The mem-ber for K at a ni ng (Mr. A. Thominson ) wheanhie wans ill the fleraildton district, said that Iwas personally opposed to the bulk handlingsy-steml onl that aevi-Olt. I repudiate thats tateniettt. The Labour Party are not up-against the bulk handling system. Ihave not heard this question deffinitely orofficially discussed by the members of theLabour Party, and I think that if onecounted heads it would be found that thereis not a majority against the bulk handlingsysten so far as our section of thle Houseis concertned.

Alr. M,%cCalluni: On the other haind, we havealways been in favour of bulk handling.

Mr. WILLOOCK : As tile member forSonuth .Fremnitle has interjected, thp LabourParty have favoured the system for a longtimte past.

Hen. P. Collier: We were the first partyto take the matter uip ahd have an investi-gation carried out.

MAr. -ma-Callnil Smith: 'Now we are merelycarrying onl your goad work.

Mn-. IAQLC OCI: Yet people go rounld theolt ut y and say the Labour Party are upagainst this svsemi.

Mr-. Latha: At am- i-ate such statementsdo hot decrease the value of the Bill.

Mr. WI ILCOCK: We hadl one of the mostearnest advocates of the system reading atgreat length about A,-kw right doing some-thing 1.50 yeats ago regarding the installationof ta-ichner v.

Mr. V ecCalluni: ie dlid not understand theposition.

Mr. WILLCOCK: Evidently not, seeingthat hie d]id not give members the right quota-tion; lie did not speak about thle right typeof machinery introduced by that inventor.The statements must have been made bysonieone in all seriousness, or the memberfor Williatns-Narrogia (3fr. Johnston) would

[8 Ssy ~zat U21.] 709

mot have felt it incumibent upon him to readextracts of what different menibers had said.

Hon. P. Collier: That was the inferenceIo was drawing.

Mr. W'LLOOCK: I ant not opposed to bulklhandlinig as a principle.I.I I

Mr. A. Thomson: Will You V010 for theBill?!

Mri. WILT4 000K: Certainly, if it is amen-ded as I desire. But if it wvere Statemoney that was to lie expended in thisproject, T would counsel delay because,during thle past twelv'e mon01ths, we haveseen thle value of waiting. A similarBill As defeated last year. Even ifa start wvere to be made onl thle elevatorsstraight away, the company would still reapconsiderable advantage by thie delay of twelvemoitlis. In New South Wales the expendli-ture onl the erection of elevators and siloshas been enormnous, and when we consider theinterest to be paid on that luage capital ex-pend iture it is doubtful whether the resultantsaving will I ournterbalanve the cost. All mustrecognise the efficieny of machinery. But wecanl have machinery so costly that it is notcommercially profitable to use it. The finaltest should be whether or not it pays. Havingregard to ' the huge capital expenditure in-robved in the erection of silos and elevators,and the conversion of rolling stock, I am notconvinced that bulk handling will pay, and, asI say, if this iircre a Government measure, Iwould counsel delay. flowerer, it is a privateconcern, and [. believe in the liberty of peopleto do what they like so long as they do notinfringe on thec rights of others. ThleFederal Government are finding the money'Aand, except as individual taxpayers, we arenot concerned.

-.%r. -Money: ft is only a loan.Air. WILLOOCE: If the State Governmient

were leading the money, my A attitude towardsthe project wvould be very' different. I heavesaid that miachinery, can be too costly to beprofitablyr cuiployci. Anynody with esperi.ence of oultback mining filds kinows that fre.quentlv mining companies will dig a hole inthe ground and erect all inllllense pile ofmachinery, only to find that they cannot getenough out of the hole to render the muachinyecoiioimically profitable. During the last twvoyears, in my electorate a company erecteda plant at a cost of from £18,000 to £:20,000,and then found that it would only dit as much

wokas one mnan had been doing previously.Air. A. Thomson: He miusthv been a

pretty good inan.Mr. 'WTLLCOCK: Yes. He was a brother

,of the member for Cue (M~r. Chesson). Manythings Pan he done, bilt only at too great acost. We often hear that we ought to be Iro-ducing cotton, tobacco, anid other commodities.We earl do it, but only at a cost.

Mr. 3[\aeCallumi Smith: We munst take a,certain risk or we shall nlever make a start.

Mr. WILLOOCK: I a'in prepared to let thetconiplany take any risk they like, but I haveto protect the interests of mny electors inrcelation to the Bill.

Mr\I. Pickering: You call amend the Bill.Mr. Money: Cut out the proviso to Claice 3.Mr. WILLOOCK: Then mny objection to the

Bill would be removed. The measure is prac-tically the same as that introduced lastsession, which contained this sannc objection-able provision. I raised strong opposition toit then. I thought it was only inserted ascamiouflage to secure the support of those atthe outports, and thtat after the mionopoly wasonce secured, those outports would be for'gotten.

Mr. Pickering: Why not give a monopolyin respect of Frenmantle?

Air. WIhLCOCK: That is just what theBill seeks to do. A mionopoly would besecured at Freumantle. If the monopoly isgiven at all, the monopolists should take abroad view of the whole of the State, andnmake arrangements accordingly. We knowtlhat the policy of the company is to build anelevator at Freimantle, and that will be theend of it.

Mr. 2[laeCalluim Smith: No, no.,-Mr. WTLLCOCK: Then why bas ijot the

company gone to Geraldtoa and Eunbury andAlbaniy and sought to obtain sha~reholders, sotlhat the whole of the work might go ontsimnulteneously?

Mr. M.acalluin Smith: That could not be.Mr\I. Money: There is only 12 nionths dif-

ference now..Mr. WflLCOCJC: If we are to have the

system in this State it should be applied, notnierely to Perth and Fremnantle, but to theState as a whole, including the outports,where, indeed, the elevators should be erectedfirst. Every now and tlhen some member,with tongue in cheek, declaims against cen-tralisation; yet the first opportunity we havefor installing a new systemn, we mrusthave it in Perth and Fremantle alone. Whynot have it in Buabuiry, or Geraldton. or Al-lbany, so that we maly develop the outbackpo rtions of the State!

-%r. facallumi Smith: We start at Fre-mantle because there we call serve thle greatestnumber of people.

Mr. Money: At the other ports less taji-tal would be required.

Mr. WfLLCOCK: That view should notactuate thle company.

M-r. 3facCalluin Smith: That is one of thegood reasons.

Mr. WTLLCOCI(: The capital cost of anelevator to be operated at one of thle smalleroiitports would be considerably less than thlecost entailed at Fremantle.

Air. Pickering: is your port suffictlyequipp~ed for thle purpose?

-Mr. 'WILLCOCK: I hope it will be by thetilme the compuay is ready. As this is in thenature of an experiment, we should ventureumpont the smallest expenditure first.

Mr. A. Thomson: You do not regard thisas all experiment!

Mr. W\IILCOCK. In this State it is, andthere are grave doubts as to whether or notit will be economically successful.

1[A SREMIBLY.]I

-Mr. Lathani : You do( not believe that weLire Oi to vease wheat growing!

Mr, WTLMIOCK: No, hut I think it isibtaoit tlef that, instea1d of incrreasing facili-

tlest for the e-xport of wheat in the raw state,ite should hel 'Ioing something else with it.

M r. Aloney We eannot get markets forwli'uit. inl oth~er than the raw state.

Mr. WILLCOCK: I have heard that be-t ore. -Vet we ,in get markets tor our flour.

Mr. A. Thomson : Then whiy don't we?Mr, WllTl&0CK( Because, through the(

actioni of the wheat pool, the( price chargedl tolo.-aI Ilosr millers does not allow themr totiiihtete with flour gristeil in other parts ofrue World. 'Bet-ansi- ot that, we cannot getthle trade.

Ifon. P. Collier: WeIL got the trade whentwheat w"t reduced to 7s. for export.

%Ir. W I LT( 00K : Yes. Our flour iaill inl(Jcraldton was Working three shifts, hut whenthe price of wheat was raised fromt 79. Sd.L to9s. rthe mnill had to close down; andl althoughit has since re-opened, it has not been able tofind employment for mlore than one shift. Be-ease thle price of wheat is fixed. too high in.Australia our flour millers cannot com"petewith those of America arid other Countries,piarticularly in respect of Java and otherplaces where 0icraldton used to rio a consid-erable trade inl flour. Instead of increasingfacilities for thle export of our wheat, wes-houldl he enleavouriug to increase tho quiao-titv of Wheat uised4 upl within the( State,whethier in dairy-inrg or pig-raising or grist-jug. Any such project should meet with our%.annest approval.

Mr. A. Thomson: In pre-war days wevoulit not keel, the Katonniug mill goingthree shifts a day.

Mr. AN'II'XOCK : We could keep the Ger-Alton, mill going, As the farmers lire prit-ting their owii mjoney into this concern, Ihave no great objeetion to the Bill, providilrtheyv take a broad outlook of the situation,Ilowitrer, f' object to monopolies unless the~yare 'in thle handsa of tine State. Tile termoprovided for this uonuopoly is too long. We'2 imulil not give away for lpractically nothingthis lighit over suci a long perioi withoutkitowisg what thle effect will he, and side by'nil,- with this right we hiave to remember tha~tthle comnipaiiy will receive thle adlvantageC of a1large sni of luliia money. Weo ro not knowwhat the efler-t Will he. The comnpany are'it to erect silos at Freniantle, andu whienthey have secuired the cream of the trade,they inn c he vontent to sit dIown aiid not at-tenihlt to etAent] the system to other parts. ofthe. State.

Mfr. A. Thomnson: 'Not if yout' cut out thlepritio to C lanse 3.

Mr. WIIAAJ,'0(K: When a similar mnen-solre tnas before us lasit year, I moved an.antioivnt to cut out a s9imilar proviso.

.- A. Thiomison- f will support you onlthis occa,,ion.

Mr. WIiltOCl: T aol pleased to havethiat assurance. If the hon. member, as act-ing Leadler of tile (Country Party, eon guar-

antit a.mt the uol'of his party' will snpJ-Pvort him ill that, I will vote for the seconrdrt ailing.

lion. i ',ohler: 'mier, hail btetter bring itfl iort' their veXi'twriive.Mrt. 1!.. hi'C I iv, eatily -' n that

thel voniqiariy ritighit 4iiilv intendi to erect aSil afi:t F 1- m nt a0e They7 hartvm iedi no effortto get ltir 'hairts tloni up els 'whjerce thanui the Firiairtli' zone.

NJr. Nlatt'almt Simith : What wiild betiii (ils u1titiZii .Ill-t, taken up, ini theG eialdtonl zone if we liii iiot intent] to startthere tigielihintely

Mr. WVILIA'Ot'K: It should be the corn-pan's intention to start at Gerald ton im-mlediately. The tompany will have ohly 12mouths, and they will lhave to get a bustleon. if they a1re going to get their shareeapital subscribed in the olther zones withinthat space of time.

Mr. MlavCalnin Smnith: Will you helpus iii the Geraldton district?

Mr. \VJLLCOCK: Certainly, hut I wouldlikec more information as to whether thescemele will be commercially profitable be-fore, . would advise any of niy friends toput their mnoney, into it.

-Mr. Pickering: You would not object tothle shareholders' list including other thanwbeatgrowers?

Mrt. WILLOOCIC: Not at all. The capitalof the company is too small to permit ofthemn starting operations excpt at one port.If the system is insta-ll ill the PrnnitieZone, it will cost the farmners in my zoneani extra 43/!d. to take advantage Of thebuilt haindling scheme. Last year it wasstated that time Westrnlian Fririners Ltd. wereniot interested in the measure authorisingthe construction of elevators. 'We were in-formed that it was an entirely new coin-pa-n v. Whent tile Bill was introduced intothe Federal Parliament, however, we foundthant the Wes3tralian FarImers Ltdl. Were thepeople whose naulies wvere on tie Rill.

Mr., Pickering: srinieonc hail. to father it.Mr. WI I.LCOC'K: Yes. L' ast yeair, hlow-

ever, we were told flint thi s Ias to be anenlirelvy new company, and yet three or fourmonths, later we find that the WestralianParmiers Ltd. are the people who ire takingover the concern.

Mi. liiiKeriag: 'rihe ther m-on'pany wasnot formed ait thait time.

'irl. WJLIP'0CK: It was stated last yearflint ai considerable suml of nmonev had been,siiliscribttd, aiid thatt tile company would beforriied. I ana pleased that thle Bill provideslint thle comipany shall not have power to

djeni ini wheat, hult even this does not suffi-e iint , y safeguardl the position. With this

Comipainy there ilil' be subsitliary c orn-pa ales, land the company may he subsidiaryto the Westralian Farmers Ltd. T have readsomiethiing of America's experiences withregard to the bulk handling of wheat as aresult of private people owning elevatorsandl being allowiedl to deal in grain. An

710

[8 SEPTEMBER, 1921.]

examination of the transactions revealedthat though they had bought wheat of sevenor eight different qualities, when it camne toselling the grain, a much greater quantitywas sold as being of a higher grade than.that at which it was purchased.

Mr. Machalum Smith: That could 'nothappen here.

Mr. WILLOOCK: There are somec prettyshrewd business heads in America, and 1.maintain that it could happen here. Whernever the commereiai systemi exists, therewvill be found people ready to take advant-age of any opportunity, If the WoestralianFarmers Ltd. are dealing in wheat and thegrain elevators company are storing thewheat, there is nothing to prevent thewheat being sold at a higher grade thanthat on which it -was bought.

Ur. MNacalluin Smith: They would nothave the certificate for ft.

Mr. WILLOOCK: That is Why I urge thatthe man who gives the certificate should bea Government servant, and not an employeeof the comapany.

Mr. Macalluni Smith: The fact that hewas working for the Government would notprevent him from committing a fraud,

Mr. WILLOOCK: I can only say that Ihave a good deal of faith in the integrityof Government officials.

Mr. Maechlui Smith:- They are nobetter than other mein.

LMr. WILLOOCK: I have a good deal ofdoubt about people who are engaged inworking commercial concerns of this d1e-scription.

Hon. P. Collier: A commercial man is outfor profits.

MLr. 'W[ILOCK: Yes, he has somethingto gain by indulging in immoral practices.Let me outline the facts given ink an Ameri-can magazine. Of first grade wheat 10 percent. was purchased, but when the grainwas sold 30 per cent. of first grade watsrecorded , Of second grade wheat they rc-cived 50 per cent. and sold 50 per cent.- Itwill he noted that sonic of this second grade-wheat was sold as first grade wheat. Ofthird grade wheat they received 35 percent, and sold only 15 per cent.; the remain-ing 20 lper cent. was sold as second classwheat. The balance was sold in about tilesame proportions as it was bought. Only10 per cent, of the wheat purchased wascertified as being of first grade, and yetafter it had been in the silos 80 per cent.was sold as first grade. We ought to beparticularly careful to guard against any-thing of this kind, even though we stipulatethat the company shall not deal in grain.The Government should have sufficient con-trol over the officials so that they could beremoved from office if circumstances war-ranted this course of action. This wouldbe some guarantee of the integrity of thepeople upon whose report regarding thegrade of the wheat the farmer will receivepayment. I am pleased with the assurance

given by the member for Katancing thathe will support me in endeavouring to havedeleted] the proviso to Clause 3, which is soobjectionable. If th-at assurance embracesthe support of the whole of the CountryParty, the motion for the second rendingwill have mly support.

'Mr. SAMPSON (Swan) [5.12] : I intendto support the second rending, and I thinka. majority of nmenibers present will do like-wvise. Thle unfortunate proviso to Clause 3uf the Bill is causing a good deal of unenia*ness, particularly amiong country mnembers whosee in it a pos9sihie source of injury to coun-try interests, We have on many occasionsvoiced the need for the country p)orts receiv-ing their fair share of trade, and a provisoof this description in an important measureinvolving a large amnount of shipping mustcause uneasiliess. I sincerely hope it w'illbe possible to make it obligatory on the com-patny to estakbl elevators at different coun-try centres; within the time stated, or alter-natively within an extended time. This would,t--) a large extent, remove any feeling of un-easiness. With the member for Geraldton(Mr. Willcek), I agree that it would havebeen a very nice compliment to the countryamnd would have shown that there was sin-cerity in our advocacy of country interests'if, instead of the projected erection of thiselevator in thc closely settled centre of Fre-mantle, the first one were erected at Buinbury,Albany, or Gceraldtom. I hope that thoseresponsible for the Bill will seeo the urgentnecessity of living up to some of the claimswe make when we are in the country.

MNr. SIMONS (East Perth) [8.14]: Aftervery care fully considering the clauses of thisS3ill I have comae to the conclusion that withcertain safeguards which I hope can' he fixediii Committee, the motion for the second read-ing should meet with the hLpproval of theHouse. We have heard a great deal aboutthe progrer-s of Western Australia; we haveheard a great deal about'its future as a grainproducing country; we have heard a greatdeal ahbomit thle necessity for developing thecounltry% on big schemes and wvithi big plant.Of course V recognise that the handling ofwheat onl the elevator systemn is really apublic utility. It should be placed in thesanme category as the railway service, thewater ser-ice, andI the tramway service. Itis no us~e getting up into the clouds of ideat-ism and starting something of an impractie-able nature, when what we should do is tosta~rt ,poll1 solid foundations. While it maybe ideal for the State to construct grainelevators, I do not see any possibility of socos:tly a scheme being originated by theState for the next five or ten years.

l-jon. W. C. Aagwin: The State couldfinance it as well as n company.

,*r. SIMfONS: The State has not done so,although it has had every opportunity in thepast. We should get on with the develop-

7112 ASSEMBLY.1

meat of the country instead of talking somuenh about the necessity for doing so. Inthis particular case the farmers have set agood examiple in the way of self-help. Cityfolk are often apt to regard farniers aspeople who are for ev-er running to the Gov-ernulent instead of helping themselves. Wenow find that settlers onl the lad are popared to put upl their own good money toestablish a system which they believe willmoderniig the methods of wheat handling. Ihlove seen this system in operation iii Can ada.We can never claimn to he a. progressive coon-tvY until we hav'e initiated something of thekind here. It is no use boasting about theprogress we are making until we fall intoline with other countries. To oppose thisparticular system of handling wheat is akinto advocating the abolition of motor ears andreverting to the tip-dray period of our civii-sation. Since the State cannot carry out thework let someone else have a clinee of doingso. We hare often heard it said that we donot get enough return from the Common-wealth Government, or from the revenue ofthe Federal Treasury, or from the establish-ment of federation. Here is an instanceshowing Federal hacking to the extent ofsomething like £400,000 should this schemebe approved by the WesternAustralian Par-lianient.

-.%r. A. Thomson : It will provide workwhich is badly needed.

MNr. SIMONS: We ought to be consistentabout things. 'We now have anl onportunityof getting some I'cderal money circulated inthis State. Dunring the war practically everypound that was raised by the various loanswas used to bolster up manufactures onl theother side of Australia. We got verv littlehelp ourselves fronm those concerns. That isantother reason why T an, in favour of thisBill. We shall get some hard-earned nionevreturned from the Comm~onwealth, to assi stus in developing a part of Western Australia.There are sonice amendments I should like tosee miade to the Bill- in Committee. The Billprovides for giving the sole right to a cer-tai, comtpjany to carry on this formt of buisi-ness, that right extending Over a Period of25 years. 'file leases that are proposed to blegiven for the terminal elevator at Fremnntlewill have a ducration of 99 yen r. It siemsto ]lie that thle leases should lie collateralwith time term speci fied for the givinz ofthese sole rights, and I hope that in Conm-niittee a proviso will hle inserted in the Billto meet this position. I also hope to seeinsertedl in the nimeamre certain sa fogurdssuchl as will place the outsidle ports of) thesame footing as Fremantle. I do not thinkthat an ' man, whIo n9pplies inttellIigent co osid-erationl to thme welfare of this country canlook with, compllaceney thlbon one bloated sea-port and] omie bloated eanital in each State,but must have regard for the necessity forhandling all our public affairs upon decen-tralisation miethods. I hope that in Commit -

tee some amendmnent will hle made to etnsure

that the ports of Albany, Geraldton and Bon-hot-y are given equal oipportunity with Fre-mantle. Generally speaking "-e shoutld ble oil-posed to nomopolies, which are distasteful to

- toit of its. I1, this ease, however, no one elseseeums to "-ant to go into the business hut thisart iculai omtpany. Apparently, the com-

pl nv has braifils behintm it, andI possesses so ifi-eient putbl ic conifident-c to raise the tiecessa'rycapital. I have special confidence in the pro-meters of this cotmpatny ft-ou, the fa-t thatthey comtise atmotig othmers Mr. WV. 1). John-sot, and Mr. T. ]{. Bath, both of whotm arerel)uItale Ilien a tid whose names are sufificientguarantee to warrant lne in having faith inthe cout ~any . -Mr. Johnson has taken a (lee;)and intelligent interest in the handling ofwheat in Australin, and indeed was the fathierof the first wheat pool. I have the greatestrespect for his ideas. I do not claimthat .lie invented the wbeat pool, be-calms- that was first invented by Josephof Egypt. However, Mr. Johnson hasshow,,i that hie knows a good deal aboutwhteat handling, wicel constitetes a fur-thter recomimendation itt his favour. As alarge amoutit of money is involved, in thisunmdertaking it is fair that thle contpany shouldbe guaranteed tlte sole right to do this workfor 25. years. It is many, years now sincethere was any big public entter-prise shown inWestern Australia, or since any great devel-opmtental work was launched. People arc con-stantly miaking- flamboyant speeches about thetteed for developing the State, but what theState tieeds is that something should be done.Of later years there htas iiot been launchedany scheme worth more than, say, £50,000.Tn the case under review wre have an oppor-tunity of launchting a sceme involving an ex-pendiure of about three-quarters of a tmillionpounds& This will be otie of the best adver-tisenients the State can possibly have. It willbe evidence that we are gmitg to (to some-thittg itistead of talkitig about it. With theteservations I hmave ttande I propose to sup-port the Bil

Mr. LATHAMI (York) 1 8.201: 1 intendto support the Bill, because I cotisider thatwhet, the fartmers of Western Australia askthme Ie~islature-to assist them in ant undertak-inr that they tivre largely fitnamncing thtemuselves,the least we cat, d o is to carry out theirishes. I':nrmlets play a very imiportant part

ill thle fire of thisMr. 0 'Logltlen:Mr. 1jATITAMI:

tip anl attitude ofMVr. Sininons: I

make then, drunk.-.Ar. TLATHAM:

State.Ther rule it.it is about time they tbokthat sort.hope that power does tiot

Tlhey are prepared to findthe mtonecy for the purpose of floating thiscomtpanty. Thte getntlemenu at the hmead of this

0101 any have evidetntly appealed to the wisetiein of the (Comttonwealth Pa-rl iatnent toass9ist theml. Pi-ovidedl the Bill will do justiceto Western Australia, there c-an ble no opposi-tion to it. 'rThe question of' moottoplies hasbeet, raised. I venture to say that two com-

712

[8 SEPTEMBER, 1921.]71

paules of this kind could not exist in thisState, because there would not be enoughwork for two to do, nor enough return forthe expense involved. Thle farmer does notbelieve in centralisatioii. When a schemelike this is started it must have a beginningat some point, and the point chosen in thisease is Fremantle. There cannot be anygreat objection to that, for the reason thatFremantle is better situated for the recep-tion of wheat than any other port in theState.

Mr, O'Loghleu: T'he principle of decentral-isation does not apply when thle big depart-mental stores send their goods out.

Mr. LATRfAM,-: That does not affect theBill. The farmiers. arc anxious to be able toextend the principle as quickly as possibleto the other ports. The clause to which ox-eeption has been taken will not do tile leastbit of harm, or injure the chances of theother ports in the State of obtaining ter-minal elevators later on. This proviso is putin to protect the company. Later onl it maynot be in the interests of certain individualsto allow this company to operate. It maybe that this company, which should effect atremendous saving to thle farmers as well asto the State, may become a big financialconcern, and it may not be to thle interestof sonic particular persons to allow it to con-tinue, if this clause is eliminated a verynecessary protection to the company will hetaken away. I must associate myqel~f withtile member for East Perth in his praise ofMr. Johnson and 'Mr. Bath. I should alsolike to add to thle list the names of Mr. W.N. Hedges, the member for North Perth (Mr.Machalum Smith), and Mr. Basil Murra.WeT have in these gentlemen people who havebeen connected with concerns that haveproved successful. The fact of their beingassociated with thme company must ensure forit considerable prosperity.

Ron. P. Collier: Those opinions were notheld whoa 'Mr. Johnson and 'Mr. Bath wereassociated with the Government of this coun-try. It was not held then that it meant pros-perity for the State.

M.-r. LATHAM: At the time when theLahour Government were in office there wasa tremendous drought, from which the Statehas hardly yet recovered. 'Whilst I do nothold the Labour Government responsible forthe drought, I -say it was a. coincidence thatthey were in office when it occurred. ThisChamber should concern itself miainily withprotecting and safeguarding the interests ofthe State. Provided the rights of the Stateare conserved, members should not think theyare called upon to interfere with the manage-ment of the concern. All they should be re-quired to do is to model the Bill upon asgood lines as possible fur carrying out the-work which the people concerned desire toundertake.

H-ou. P. COLLIER (Boulder) [8,26]:- 1 amdelighted with the words of praise and eulogy

which have fallen from members oppositewith respect to the commercial knowledgeand business acumnen displayed by two gen-tieruen who are connected with this company,and who were formerly colleagues of mninein the Labour Government. This remindsone very forcibly of how often opinionschange, and how frequently mien's names areused to further a proposition by gentlemen,who only' a few years ago un1hesitatingly saidthat the fact of these names being associatedwith any project was sufficient to condemnthe proposition. With the principle of bulkhandling there is no difference of opiniouin this House.

Thle Premier: And of co-operation.Ron. P. COLLrER: Thle member for North-

East Fremantle (H~on. W. C. Angwin) is notopposed to the principle of bulk handling.As has been rightly said by the member forN\orth Perth ('Mr, Machalum Smith), thequestion of handling grainm in blk in thisState was first takeni up and made alive, andbrought within the realms of practicability,by the Government of which I was a member.Bec-ause every uMember here believes it wouldhe a good thing in principle, aud would re-sult in economy and saving both 'to thefarmers and to thne State, that is not to saythat ire approve or will swallow any measurethat is brought before us to provide for itsestablishment. I am not at all influencedby hearing the inmes of any gentlemen whomay be associated with any project. WhilstI have the greatest admiration for the busi-ness ability and intelligence of the Chairmanof Directors of this company, and for Mr.Hediges,, M-Nr. M_%urray and the other gentle-muen who have been mentioned, I believe inexamining a proposition onl its mecrits, irre-spective of the names of those who may bepromoting it. That is a sound business policyto pursue. We miust not swallow things be-cause associated witli them are the names ofgentlemen of considerable standing in thecommiereial life of the community When asimilar Bill to this was before ParliamentInst year, its defeat in another place cnuseda cry all round from the supporters of themeasure, who declared that bulk handlinghad becen thirown hack for anl indefinite period,and thait generally the farmers of this State.Awould suffer in consequence of the actionof another place. That action was univer-sally condemned in agricultural circles. Butnow~, after a lapse of 12 months, we havetime miember for North Perth, the Chairmanof the company, adumitting that the defeatof the measure last year has proved bene-ficial to the company, that had the companybeen authorised to go on last year with thework of constructing the elevators that workwould have been fairly advanced by now, in-deed well advanced towards Completion, at amuch higher cost for materials than the costwill be now. Further, had the company beenauthorised. to proceed last year, it appearsthat they would have proceeded to erect asilo at each country siding, whereas the mem-

713

714 [ASSEMBLY.]

her for North Perth now admits that thenecessity for that very heavy expenditure canhe obviated by the use of a travelling elev-a-tor. The resultant saving should he citor-incus. Therefore it may be that if we stillhesitate, if we again declare the time to beinopportune, the comnpain- in another 12mnonths will find that they are in a positiont )effect still further large savings.

'Mr. Pickering: What about the Common-wealth loan?

l[oon. I'. COLLIER: I prsiw that thatloan would be available 12 months from now,'prst as it is available now after having beenpromised a twch'-e-nioitth back.

MrIi. 1Lathamn: Row about if a change ofFederal Governmlient occurs!

Ifon. P. COLLIER: I have great faith inliunliaii na1ture. Any other Federal Govern-inent eoining along would probably be asmnuch concerned for the welfare of theagric-ulturists of this State as are

the present Government, Nor has itever been thle practice of ally Gov-emninent t o repudiate contracts or obli-gations entered into by its predecessors.The member for North Perth drew a certaincomparison onl the aspect of monopoly. It isstrange how, when cireunistances suit, hon.members can throw over the theories of alifetime. For rears I have listened in thisChianmber to dleclarations from hon. membersopposite of their faith in thle doctrine1 ofsupply and, rienilnd. The railing against theState trading concerns has been onl thle scorethat it is no function of the State to inter-relic in competitive business. The law ofsupply and denland has also been invokedagainist price fixing, Inl fact, it has, beenconsistently urged that aniy iterference w iththe law of supply and demand is quite wrong.T, venture to say no nlelnber has held or pro-claimned that doctrineo more strongly than. thememlber for North Perth. Bitt nowv thit hoit.muembler is quite preplared to set aside thatlaw for 25 years in order that this companymay have a monopoly for that period. Iduring thact period thiere should be such adevelopment in our wheat growing areas aswould justfy the existenice of another bulkhandling system, its installation would notbe permitted. Tit this particular instance theiueiitbcr for North Perth declares that thelaw of supply and( demnd imust stand aside.Tile lion. mniiber lis said that T, amiongstother mnembers. onl this side of the Cllamuber,Last session. supported a mionopoly for timeconstruction of a railway froml M.Neeketilarraout beyond Peak I-ill. Bu1t thle 1101. Illi iberis entirely mnistaken. No monopoly whatever"-as grantied iii titat instalwe. A. certaini coin-pany wals merely granted a right to ,-oiistructa railway. That involves ho mtonopoly. If cii-other comipany, liaviing disc-overed seine other11mneral dep osit in thle samne dlistrict, desire-d towork that dleposit by an independent railwayrather than hr thle first columanly's rnilwtiythere wouldi lie nothing to preventt Parliamentfrom granting authority fonr the construcetioiof a second line. But hero we have a pro-

posal to shut out all competition in the bulkhandling of wheat for a period of 25 years.The miember for NXorth Perth seemed ratherhurt at thle renmark of the memnber for N,.orth-East Fremantle (Hon. W. C. kngwin) thatthis 'Bill was a fraud. Front that observa-tion1 thle inember for North Perth drew thleinferenceo that 11i1 colleague was inliputingcri-inlal practices to the Governmient, and tothe dircctors of thle comlpanly, and to ev'er-body associtedl With the undertaking. Ofcourse w-c all know that the word was notus-ed in anly such sense by the membier forN\orth-East Fremantle. 5. believe that whatthfat ]lost. member had in mind was that whilstthle Bill purports that elevators are to heerected iii eacli of the ports of F17renmantle,Al ian n%, Ruinbury, and Gieraldton, there reallyis noe Intention whatever iii thme minds of thecompany at present-absolutely no intentionwhatever-to construct the necessary worksat anly other ptort thatn Fremiantle. In thatrespect the mtemtber for N-orth-East Frentantleconsiders thle mneasure a frauld, cud in thatrespect I too coiisider it a fraud.

Mfr. Alacaillunt Smith: You are quiteWr-oing.

]Ton. P. COLLIER: Let us see if I antquite wrong, I think I shall be able tojustify ity statement from thme utterances ofthe clmitpiuns of the Bill. I.ton. nienmbersgenerally are aware that thme nmeimber for Wil-liimis-Narrogin (Mr. JTohniston) is -a verycareful speaker, one wlto weighs beforehandthoughtfully and lengthily anly statetment liemakes iii this House. Tme iliiitter forIWillinis-arrogin is i tile confidence of theCompany and ini the cuitdeliie of thle Ineum-her. for Nor-th Pqrtli He is thor-oughlY amfalit with thme whole biusiniess, andii with whatthe cohiipml htave at tile back of their indts.Now, time coimipan , say thtat it is tlteir iten-tion to go Coi nitlh the necessar y works at allthese ports. But tile inenmber for Williams.Nnirrogin states, ''If successful at F'rcintle,the company will then construct the works attite other Ports." '7Let lion., Iniluhrs itotethose wvoids "If sulccssful." Those wvordsshnow ceaily that it is the hiresint intenttion offte coumpany to comstruct oak.% thle Fremaiitleelevator, midi iiot even to begin tlte work ofcanstruetini at anly of thle other ports. until

time Pi-e1tin100 elevator Itas been completedand giveni a trial. Indeed, the same thingwas adumitted by' the member for -Nothl Perththnis evening I)% way of interjection duiringthle spoeeh of time meniher for Gomaldtomt (Mfr.Wilieck) - The miemiier for North Perth ilt-t'rioc-ted. "You would miot exp~ect that Wewomihi carry o11 tlme work of constriuctioin siul-ulta imousir' at nll the ports, would von?''What do those wrdls mean? They of couirseamiount to ani endorsemtent of the statementI have clii cted fromi the imeimble r for 'Will ians--Na rrogini.

Mr, MlaccaHunt Si th:- Nonsenise.Ron. P. COLLIER: They amount to an

endorsement of the statement that the com-pany intend to complete the Fremantleelevator and give it a trial aod see how it

714

[8 SEPTEMBER, 1921.]71

goes, and that the question of thle construc-tion of elevators at the outports will dependupon the company's experience at P're-mantle. in that respect I say the Bill is af rau d. Looking at the Bill casually, read-lng it cursorily, one would think there wasa genuine, bona fide intention to proceedwith the whole of these works ait the sametimec. The fact that thle periods of c-an-cellation. vrv as between the Fremantleelevator onl the one hand and the outportelevators on the other hand, being foury)eatrs in the ease of Fremnantle and fiveyears in tile ease of all the other ports,shows what is the real intention of thecompany. Otherwise the period for eon-struetion would be thle samne at the outportsas it is at Fremantle. Taking that fact inconjunction wvith the Statements of thesupporters of the measure,' one can have nodoubt whatever as to thle true intentions oftile company. The House would be doingwrong in passing legislation that wouldienable the comnpany to get an exclusiveright to -the cream of the bulk handlingbusiness in this State. We should see thatwe get a system of bulk handling complete,a systemn that will serve all the wheatgrowers of this .State, and every wheat-shipping port, and not only sonic of- thewheat growers and one of thme lports. Sup-lpose time (Ohm P1j' iy prIoceetied to construct theFremantle elevator, Jut fail to carry outtheir obligation in respect of thle otherports. Then; we shall be told, the Govern-mnict will exercise their right tinder themeasure and revoke the licenses in respectof the other ports. Butt are we likely toget any other bulk handling company totake up the work of constructing thle eleva-tors required ait the on tports, when it isknown that the first comipany have thebenelit of the bulk of the trade, of thecream of thle traide, namelY, the Fremantlehusi [less?

Mr. Manin: Could not we amiend the Billso as to make--

lion. P. COLLIER: I can.i assure the menm-he;r for Perth that I intend to try to havethe Bill aniendled very materially in Comn-riittee.

If.,i. W. tC. Angwin: We tried to lastsession.

Ilo'i. P. COLLiER: Yes, we tried lastsession, and we failed. However, with theinfusion of new blood into this Chamber.with the inclusion of new and wiser heads,we should be more successful this session.Let me point out how thle comIpany haveevidently benefited 1*, thle delay. Lastsession ma Bill of only three clauses wasthought sufficient to cover the whole of thework involved in this business-at Bill ofthree clauses I The ineasure now beforeuts contains no fewer thai 42 clauses-sh owin~g that within the last 12 months theomipany bare discovered n y features

which necessitate enlargement of the scopeof the Bill.

The Premier: The present Bill covers awider range.

li-on. P. COLLIER.: Either this Bill hasbeen drawn loosely, or it has been drawn-.I1 will not say intentionally-to speciallyfavour the company. E~ven in the event offailure on their part to carry out theirobligations in respect of ports other thanFreniantle, cancellation of their licenses. inrespect of those other ports is not obliga-tory unmder this mecasuire. This measurenirelr says that the Governor in Council

* in''revoke thle licenses. Again, withregard to the Freman tle elevator the presentmeasure says that if satisfactory progresshas not been made with the construction ofthe work within four years thle Governorin Council "'may"' cancel the licenst . £canl imangine wriat would happen in fouryears' Pinie, if tile company had notNmde satisfactory progress with the work,

had beet mm erelY diawcl Ii ug mu ong. wma rkinigti ic ainti1 thn four Years had expired.if four years had expired., then it Would beat thle discretion of thle Governament whetherthey, should cancel the company 's rights. Icannot imnagine the present Government, ifthmey continue in power for four years hience-- strange thinigs mnay happenl-or any Gov-eriminent drnawn front thle elements onl theGovernment side of the I-ouse, proposingtom cancel the rights, of this comnpany. 'Do hion.muniubers imiagine for one inineat that theywould be allowed to do it? Th~ey would nothec allowed to exercise that right in fouryeatrs, or eight years, or 18 years. I want,to taike away thle discretionary puewer frontthe Governerit. Let Prlriament set it clownhamrd and fast and specificallyN that thme Go-ernumeme of the dar ' shal ,'' not ''mar' fintis.Mr. Latham: Would YOU not make any

pirovision for umnforeseen circuimstanncs, suchOis IWars, and so on?

lt. P. COLLIER: ]in the event of war,or any other unforeseen. eiicmlstaniees, Par-liamnent could rectify the position by anamiiending Bill. If tinforeseen eircumistaneesarose, and thle comipanly were legitimlatelyentritiled to receive consideration, time Grovern-went could bring an antending 'Bill beforePa rlinnment and the coiimym~ would get con-sideration.

Mlr. Latham: That would be to reconsiderthle Bill.

lion. P, COLLIER: I prefemr to reconsiderthe miatter in the formn of at smiall amndingBill rather thaii deal with it under this Bilqitd leave it to a Govern mm eat whih Iilmight-T do not sny it wouldl-be amenlable topi essure front outside influenices. That is tlmaa ttitnmle I1. take up. I have not had an op-poirtumiity of examining the figures or omakimng;in estimiate of the capital cost of the wofrkc,which wetuld be of vatme. I believe, however,tliat thme coimpany have iunder-esti innted thecapitall cost of those works, T notice, too,that we are withotit in for mat iotn nil 0nothe rpoinit, although heon. members na-c here whoshould be in a position to give us the infer-

715

71.6 [ASSEMBLY.1

nratiorr. I take it tire directors of tire Coln.hathave carefully calculated the cost to

tile farmer of' shipp~ing inl bags, arid tire costinivolved in sliipliing ,in hulk. Thelrey shouldhave anl irdea of tire saving that vorrid beeffer-ted. Ft conlve.ys no information to sayhat last year we sent £E300,000 out of this

State for tire- purchase of bags. Wlrat is tineestirrantedl saving per bushel, or tl~- estimatedtotal saving to the farners of tire State? 1.1athre repon t of tire ardvisory hoard onl tire hulkhand1liing of grainl, whichi body' investigatedthis mlatter ins 1913, sonic iniformnationl waisgiv-ern onl this point, birt r do ant knrowwhether they allowedl for tire wxhole selneirreonl a srraller basis than is proposed isv tiseorrianury or riot.

Hon, Wr C, Anigivin:, They nutl.1-Ionl. P. COLLIER: Thlev did niot esti-

mlate that iuel of at profit would bie re-eived. Their report sets out that thle esti-mnated capitat expeinditure onl a schemle aiml-ing to handle five rmillion brrnshcls, includedthe fotlowirng iteris:-tenuina I elevator andsidings at .Prerrrantle, ESO0O00; 30 countryelevators and sidings, £381,700; or :1 total of£161,700. Their thtere is tnotrer item in chilelhas riot been mrentioired in the course of thisdebate, and it is 0o10 of considerable imiport-ann-c to a lover ninrent who) are so errbar-rns scd fromr a financial standpoint at tire pre-seirt tunle.

lion. W. C. Arigirrn Arid of iriportaneeto lI':rlianierrt too.

Non. P. COLL [ER%: Tha.t is tire quiestionof wlrat it would cost tire Ra-ilway iDepart-rment to hanidle this grain ;ii buflk. Tire? esti-mate ndo 1)iy the hoard irr 1q13 for the.9aa11r sceene was LI00,1)00, represeir tingtire sotsn required for rullinig stor-L to hanrdlotire five iilionl btislels.

lon. XV. C. Arrgwin: Onl that estimate itwrll rrecan quite £E200,000 or £250,000 now.

Ierr. P. COLjLTER: OwVing& to tire inl-creased cost of rollinjg stoek, nrrd increasedcosts in otirer directioirs, it would mren quitethat amount. If provision 6vere to hie riarlefor handling tine larger harvest tirnt we hravenown. it will lh rie appreiated that tirecoat to thre s-tate for tine provision of tireliretessar)' rollirrg stoik cnnot he less thanl£200,000. At any rite, tine estimate givertby tire board iii 1913 for tile elevartors and

rolir stool to handle five mrilliorn bus~helswas £ 261,700. Thre revenue was estirriatedby the board a~s follows:-Hnndling charges,in~cluding 14 darys free storage-country Me-vats's, five- rmillinr burshrels at Md., £20,S33;termnnrral elevator, five rmilliorn bushels at V-1.,E-10,41 7; storarge eliarges-500,O00 bushrelsfur three riroritlis it iAd. a nukortir, 500,000bhvsiis for tor mniths at Mid. per nionrtl ,£:3,6.50; making a total of £34.900. The esti-niateni worlcnrg costs orep also shown. Thehoard provide for interest at four per cent.as -against tire five per Cent. Whichr would]hanve to be paid to-day.

lanir. W. C. Angivin: it is six tier ceint.to-do) . The conpany have to pay six perceirt. tim the Coninnonrnwealth Government oni

tIre, nioncy advirired so far arid ftreri willhave to pay mlore if thle cost to tire Corunrlonl-wealth is niore thani six per cent.

iro. 1'. COLL IER: At airy rate it is sixper cent. liois and I do riot tlink it wvill beairy less. Tile horid provide for interest atfoinr jeVr cent., insuran1ce, mrajintenarnce anitdepreciation, fuel, stores, wages, etc., ont£:161,700. Thec working costs on this basisof four per cent, are shon as follows:-Onle terinral elevaqtor at IPyciiantle, £ 10.1 29;30 countr 'y elcvators, £19,371 ; or a total ot£.30,000. This showsq that, after malking thisprov isiorn, there is left oivaibible for arlirrin-istratiori, graini inspection rand contirigees,tire sourn of £ 4,900. fIr thre Opinion of theadvisory'% board thirt was thre srplus thatn'orihi he available for adrrinrstcrurg tiresce ene, grairr inspection arid so onl.

MIr. Piecerirg: Did that providje for tirewhole plant?

Honci. P. COLL[ER: 'I't providedl for tileplant I1 have read urt. 1' regretthat thre mrember for North Perth (M1r. Mae-Calluarl Snrith) has niot given us sours infer-niation regarding tire estirriated saving to thefarrers of thre State. mI n not going tooppose tire second reading of tire Bill. Itis tlie-fariners who airc largely concerned. Ido0 riot talke tire view that we should riot eon-cern ourselves as to the Ciovernraerit assist-race afforded to this proposition because theColniMnowen Ith Oorr'urrenrt, arid niot theState Governmenit, gave that assistanc. Afterall, wve have to pay whrethrer iii tha capacityas taxpayers of tire State or taxpayers of thleC ( 11OnroiWealth. I wold be quite preparedto snfegnurrd the interests of tire Federal0-overanrort in a niatter of this kind, as Iwould be if it was tire State Government,who were assisting therm. Ini any easer I doriot know why the State Parliament conic iatothis iratter at all. We aire to appoint aboard which will lie altogether a farce. Ihope that portionr of tire HBill will be naiteri-all)' iltered inl Conmrittee. On the board asproposed, the G overrrrrenrt will be nominallyrepresented by one mrermber. If this is aprivate ruenshers' Bill, as sirggested, whysirhould tire State Governmrenrt be brought intothe irrtter ? It is; thre farrisers' wheat, andrye ha~ve been told that this is really a farmers'B3il1. We aire assured it is their conreerni. Ifthrat he so, let thre farmrers forar a co-opera-tive corrparnr in thre sarrre way as anyone elseis pierrmitted? to do turd carry on th~eir husi-iress. Thle only way Prliament shourld comeinto this qurcstioar would be to grant theniecessary sites anid leas 'es of Goveramnent pro-pety, either at thre lionts or along the rail-ways.

lHon. W. C. Aagwirr: They hare got that.Hrr. P. COLLIERB.: Apart f ronr that as-

pet, let the farmers form their own COM-parry arid accept their owrr responsibilities.If thle directors do0 not manage the affairsof the conrpart - to rheir satisfactiorn, theyhave tire means Of remedy)ing the positionas shareholders in the ernirparry. T do not

716

[8 SEPTSMBER, 1921.]71

believe in the Government comning into sucha proposal, for, with their one representativeoni the board, neither the Government norParliament will have any real influence orpower. On the other hand, they- will have atmoral responsibility to see the thing through.

Hon. W. C. Angwin: And there will he thevote of Parliament.

Hoii. P. COLIJrER: Every year there wtillbe an appropriation made by 'Parliament tomeet the expenses of operating the board.I do niot think this is necessary. The boardshould lie cut out and the company should beallowed to manage thle whole thling. It shouldbe a question between the shareholders andtheir directors to provide all the machiaery.regarding standar-dising, grading, and so onl.That is a question for the management of thecompany.

MNr. Latham:. You must protect the inter-ests of the State.

Hon. P. COLLIER: We did not protectthe State's interest before the war. Ini thosedays theL farmlers so01d wheat where theyliked. There was no protection then.

Mr. i,ntham : There nmost have been pro-tection for thle State.

lion. P.' COLTER: There was not.Mr. Ahaecallu Smith: The advisory board

recommended the establishment of a board.ion. F. COLLIER:. That miay be, but

Parliament did not make prevision for aboard last year.

Mr. Mlacalluni Smith: The Bill was riotcompleted.

Hion. P. COLLIER: They were anxious togut the Bill through aiid it 'vas consideredthat the people in the country suffered groatloss because the measure was not passed. L~etthle company manage their own affairs andcarry out the functions it is proposed to rele-gate to this b~oard. Parliament should onlycomie into this matter in order to give thee~nmpany the right to operate the bulk hland-ling system on sites at the ports or else-where along the railways& I propose to Tadi-cally amend the Bill in Committee, if pos-sible. Jlust to show how loosely the Bill hasbeen drauwn up, I will give lhon. members anexample. There is not a. line in samec of theseclauses through which a lawyer could niotdrive a coach and four. am not a lawyerbut I am certain I could drive a coach andtour through most of these clauses. I havebad sonic experience, after passing the -For-4ests Act, and the Land Act Amendment Act,which dealt with the pastoral areas in theNorth -West. That being so, 1 have lookedclosely into this Bill, and 'I find, for instance,that there is one clause which says that ''thecompany shall not decal or traffic in grain.''Ink order to evade that clause all that isnecessary- for the company to do is to formanother company comprising perhaps exactlythe same men and go ahead with their deal-ing in grain.

Mr. MN-eahum Smrith:- That would not help

Hon. P. COLLIE R: If they formed anothercompany, or formed a company with a. varia-tion in the directorate of one man, theywould entirely exempt themselves from thisprovision.

Mr. MacCal Inns Smlith: [t woul1d not helpus ait all. We can go into the open marketand sell to thle farmner..

lion. P. COLLIER: 'If it would niot help,why not give the company a free hand? Whyis this inserted, if that lie so? There musthave been some object in placing this pro-vision in the Bill, and so aimi at preventingthle company dealing in grain.

Mr, Willeock: It is mecrely camouflage.lion. P. COLLIER: At any rate, this

rlamse can be evaded easily. Anyone ranseo that.

Mr. Mfacallumn Smith: Supposing another-onpany n-as formed to deal in grain, wouldit miatter?

lon. P. COLLIER: Why, thenr, is thisprevision inserted in the Bill?

Mr. MNreahumi Smith: Well, strike theclause ant and let the company ilea] with it.

Ron. P_ COLLIER: There is proof of thlelooseness with which the Bill is drawn![''Strike it out, it doosun't matter.' They*-throw onl the Table .A Bill drafted anyhow,and when a weakness in it is pointed to,the 'y say, ''Well, strike it out.'' Is thatall the thought it received in its drafting?

Air. M..achalum Smith: The shareholdersdo not want the compa-ny to deal in grain.

Hon. P. COLLIER: i't is just as well thatthe company should not deal ingrain, be-cause I can see manly phases in which itwould be undesirable. Nut time Bill dloesnot prevent the company from dealing ingrain,. for the provision can he so easilye va ded. It has been suggested that theBill should go to a se-lec-t committee. E1think vwe could anld it ourselves, for wehave had considerable experienee aince thedebate which was held onl this question lastyear. Seeing that members Intimkately con-nected with the Bill are so complaisant, soready to meet us with ''Strike it out,'' Ihave no doubt whatever that we shall beable to knock it into shape in Committee.

Ihope we shall be able to amend the Billin a. way which will safeguard all interests,ensure us against any piece-mneal form ofbulk handling, and secure the protection ofalil those connected -with grain productionwhose interests can be served only. throulghthle ontports.

Mr, PICKERING (Sussex) [92:Iaml infavour of bulk handling. I ave alwayscontended that, if possible, thle poolingSystem should be continued until bulkhandling is installed; because it is evidentfrom the success which has1 attended bulkhandling in other countries that this sys-tern is most satisfactory to the wheat-grower. The chief opposition to the 'Bill isai ned at the proviso to Clause 3. It hasbeen alleged that the member for North 'Perth

717

718 [ASSEA11LTY.1

(Mr. M1acaillurn Sinith) is prepared toforego that provision. However, to do thatwould be equivalent to saying that the Gov-ernment could take away the monopoly inrespect of Fremantle in thle event of thecompany not meeting its obligations towardsthe outports. Does it not seenm unreason-able to expect that a company, startingwith insufficient funds for tile fulfilment ofthe contemplated requi remnents, shouldforego the provision in Clause 3 while stillbeing subject to the condition that withina period of five years fromt thle commence-ment of the Act it must construct elevatorsat the outports? If we are to cut out thatprovision it is only reasonable that theperiod fixed for the completion et theelevators at outports should be extended bytwo or three years. It is but natural thatthte company shouldl select Fremantle as astartinZ point. Another aspect of the qutes-tion which should be borne ini mind is thatthe ports of Bunbury and Geraldtoa are atpresent unsuited to the requirements of thebulk handling system. F'or instance, atlBunbmry it would not be practicable toinstal bulk handling until a considerableamouut of money was expended on reclaina-tion works. Onl several occasions have Theard the member for Bunbury (Mr. Money)declare to the Minister for Works that itwould be absolutely necessary to expend aconsiderable amount of money on reclamna-tion works at Buabury before hulk handlingronid be installed there. What prospect isthere of anly such extensive and expensivework being carried out at Bunbury in theimmediate future? On the same reasoning,does the member for Geraldtoa (Mfr.Willeock) contend that Geraldton is readyfor the installation of bulk handling, ordoes -leadmit, that certain reclamnationworks must first bc carried out there?

Mr. Willeock: Tile Government proposethat.

Mr. PICKERING :Then, what is theestimated cost of that work? Ii view ofthe condition of the finances. I cannot seeany immediate prospect of these large worksbeing effected by tile Government. There-fore I am fortified in my contention thatif we are to cut out this proviso to Clause.3, somne extension of. tunec should be grantedto thle conmpany for the erection of eleva-torn at Bunbory add at Geraidron. -As forthe constitution of the board, I should liketo know why in this State members of Par-lisment are not eligible for seats onl boardsof this nature. In other States members QfParliament are appointed to such1 boards,and I do not see why they should not beeligible here.

Mr. Marcaiom. Smith: Thsa:yuu arc nor,in favour of the doctrine one man, one job?

Mr. PiCKERING: I will take as many asT can get, so long as they are reomunera-tive. It seems that the establishment ofanother Government department is con-templated, together with the provision of

furthelF offices. No doubt thle Westralisn.Farmers Ltd. will be prepared to provideaccommodaition for the new Governmentdepartment.

'Mr. .Tohnston: Not unless they are paidfor it.

Mr. PICKERING: I shonuld like an esti.mate of the revenue expected to accruefrom rhle operations of this hoard. Thecdepartment is to be supplied from Con-solida tedI Revenue with an annual sum tocarry niltthe operations of (hle board, There-fore, it is only reasonable that we shouldhe given some estimate of the revenue tohe derived fromt the operations of the board,so that we might know thle extent of theoibligations to which we are to be com-initted. Section 23 provides that the deci-sions of the board in respect of any disputeor complaint shall be final and withoutappeal. Personally, I do not know thatT would be preparedl to invest the boardwith such] lowers. There is also thequestion of the change in the grainstandard. However, that can be dealtwith in Gomnmittee. The flues provided ap-pear to mie to be in s0om0 eases exceedinglyhigh and in others unrensdniably lows. T aminl fa-vour of hulk handling and, given certainaniuenduments, tile m)easure will have may cheer-full support. Howrever, if thu llotre decidesqto -tiend Clause :1, 1 certainly think that someextenision of time should lie afforded tbe corn-plluy for tile erection of silos in voitiflu5 partsor thle State.

r) I .%\. 'Ill103lq0N ( Katan n iu) [9.)]

That the debate lie adjourned.

Mrotionl i and au uivision takenl with thlefollowing resunlt:-

AyesNos

Mr. AngeloMr. AngwioMr. BoylandIMr. IBrounMr. CarterMr. ClydesdaleM r. CollierMr. DaviesM r. fluraickMr. GibsonMr. HeronMr' JohnstonMr' L~ath amM r. H. K. MaleyMr. MannMr. Mcoallum

Mr. ChessonMr. MotneyMr. 1. Thomson

-. . . 3 30

4

Mlajoritrv for -. 26

AYEs.Mfr. 'MitchellM r. Pickering7Mr. Pipse,%Ir. RichardsonM Fr. Sampson

ir.Seaddainr.Sinmens

M4r. J1. M1. SmithAtr. Stubebs'Mr. A. ThomeonMfr. UnderwoodM r. Willeock51r. VilsonM1r. 'Miliany

(Teller.)

Noes.11r, .Oeiuleft

I r. (T e le r .)

Motion thtus 1 ias9scdl.

718

[8 SEPTEMBER, 1921.) 1

BELL-LAND AGEINTS.Second Reading.

Debate resumled train 1st Sepitemiber.Rion. W. C. A-N-GII (North-East Fre-

mantle) tL.1];: To the int principles ofthe Bill I have nto objection to Offer. t. thinkthe measure is a step )n the right direction.When we reriumber time various statementswhich have b eer' irade with regard to thebiusinoes of land agents, particularly of late,I think the time has arrived when steps shouldbe takeui to register and license those engagedin this business, init .1 cannot see wly~ wveshould differentiate between land agents inthe metropolitan atr-ea and those in the counk-try. If it isi right that the bind agent iii thecity of Perth should he registered andIlicensed, it is also right that a land agent inkBunbury. Albairy, lKalgoorlie, or anyt' otherpart of the State should also he registeredand licensed.

Mr. Pickering. Thlit is what 1I say.Ron. W, C. AN0WI1N- All of them shouldi

be placed onl art eqluality, tire samne as theyare in New Zealand. We have been told thatthis Bill is almost a capy- of the lNew ZealandAct. ft dloe follow the Newv Zealand Actvery closely, except inl respect to one Or twoclauses and- iut tire direction I lrinm indicated.Every person itt the metropolitan area ;vhowishes to carry uti at land agency business inlfuture will have to pay a license fee of £E5,but anyone airtside the metropolitan area willnot have to take out a license. This differ-entiation is quite wrong. If thle lpriliciple oflicensing binui agents has worked well through-out New Zealand, wvhy should it not workwell here? I hope that inl Comrmittee thle-Bill will he amended accordingly.

Mr. Mann: The inland townis of Newv Zea-land are Targer- than aours.

Rfon. W. C. ANOGWIN: If it is necessaryto license a man in tine city to ensure that Irishiisinass is condiucted in a proper mianner, thesaine necessity exists as regards the man inthe country. It is just as likely that a uanin the country will get on the wrong track.'

Ron. P. Collier: The people in, thle smialltowns require protection just as much ais thosein the large towns.

Ron. W. U2. ANOWLN: T would not indnif We differentiatedl ink tire fees ill City :Ilcountry, xi we do irk time case of amurctioncers,but all lanld agents throughout the Stateshould he registered.

Mr. Pickering: And the people of threcountry should hanve thle guarantee, too.

Hton. W. C. ANGWJIN: 'Whent the Premierwas moving the second reading, I asked byway of interjection whether a comlpanly coldnominate an employee to be thmeir licenlsed re-presentativo. The licensed rellieCntitiVe ofa companY' should he thle mnanager; lie should.take thv, rteslmnrsihility for thle coinplny. lHeshroold nt be able to nominate a clerk in Ilieoffice to bear tire responsibilt;- aid relieve tt-!company frotti anly stigria which igh-lt Incbrought uponli it. WhUIN'- a eompi-any Carr -y nnibusiness inl several offices the Per'soil condluct-

ing the business on behalf of thle companyat other than the head office should also beaii approved person and should pay a smallfeeA ranchi office of this description wouldlire competing wvith other laud agents who hadto pay the full fee. A conmpany or personcarrying on a larger buisiness could afford topay it additional. fee, and tme person incharge of the office should he guaranteed sothat the public maly know that the businesswould he conducted inl a proper manner. Sucha person should ]lave to apply to the nagis-trate in time same wavy as the manager of tilehecad office, I have sonic doubt whether theProvision for a truset account will he alto-gether. a protection.

MI-. 11ann: Land agents will have to finda fidelity bond_

Harn. W. C. A-NGWIN:K I ami aware ofthat. It is Proposed that clients' mioneyshe paid into a trust account. The idea is toprrvent such mioneys being attached by acreditor. There is a possibility of onie Per-soil 's miortey being paid into a trtist account,and another client's money not being so paidin, and whro could say whose morley hadin-ttally been paid ill to tile trust account?Thle quiestion is whether every client 's moneyshould not be put into a separate trust ac-

Mr. -Miarn You icati to earumark eachclie'nt 's mioney.

Tfen. -W. C. ANOWIN : Yes3. If it istmeessar;- to hlave a trust account, it seemsreasonable that enrch client's mnoney shouldbe protected. This Bill is designed to pro-tect the Public dgaimst any land agent who"tight be temipted to do wrong.

Caplt. Carter: Would net the one trustaetolUmrt Protect till1 elients?

1-ion. W. C. ANC.XVN: Ant agent niighrtsell two jitopcrtites -tud pity the niorieg in re-spoct of one property into a trust ,account.Theo nioner in respect of thme other property,however, iunight riot be paid ill. Who couldsa1y n-hose ntoney hll actually been. Paid iurt

Capt. Carter: Thne agent would 10 coil-traVonling, thle lawV 3y not pa-yintg ill the secnld.

Hon. XV. C. A'NOWIN: I admnit that,' butwhat Protectioni would 'it 1)e to the twoclients!

Capt. Carter: Tlhe law can only providethat an' agent shiall do so. It cannrot make1 irii don it if lie wishes to default.

flair. U,. C. AINOWrN: This provision isdesignedl to protect the( loublic arid to get attile dishonlest agent, not the honest rman.

Xl r. l'ickcrineg: Hanw are you going toronnetly it?

lluii. NV. C. ANGWIN: I do not know.

"'ie mireunher. for Karnoivuni (17on. TF. Walker),Who is a leg.al mnan, is doubtful whether thisclauise tiill be workable.

-Mr. 7.lanrt : I think Your suggestion wouldmiuke it worse.

1Hon. WV. 0. ANI41WTN: T merely throwouit tirl, suggestion rim time houpe thait mnembers4would discuss it.

719

720 [ASSEMBLY.)

Capt. Carter: You mneani to bare a seriesof trust accounts?

Hon. W. C. ANOWIN: Yes. Under theMlurneipall Corporations Act, the municipali-ties hare to keep) separate accounts in re-spect of their loans.

Mr. Pickering: But thieyv would not hareinan v.

Hon. W. C. AINGAIN: A fair number,but I do not know that the"i always observethe law, This Bill is a step ini the rightdirection and( I trust that it will receive theapproval of Parliament.

Captain C.ARTER (Leederville) [().25] : Lonly wish to deal with the suggestion thrownout by the inember for NVorth-East Premantle(Hon. W. C, Angwin). This clause is ob-viously designed to protect the public againstthe unscrupulouls individala. it does not ap-peal to my reason that any detailed attemptto mnake an agent open a, series of trust ac-counts, one for, each client, would be effective.I have had seine experience in this line ofbusiness and] I know firns in. this cityv whohandIle trust accounts for probably hundredsof different clients. It seems to ine that ifthis Bill is passed, it will be quite a. succei3s-ful safeguard for the public if it states thata trust account Shall be opened forall mioneys received oil trust in thecourse of business. I think wre wvillbe fulfilling the desire of all straight-forward and honest land agents who1, as a member of the Association, know de-sire the Bill, if the meaasure% is passed in itspresent form, I do not see that 'we shouldcast any further duties upon individualagents. By making it necessary- for all trustmoneys received by a firm or individual agentto be banked to a trust account until thefinal dishurseiient is made, we shall be doingall that is desired, which is the safeguardingof the interests of the public.

Mr. SA-MPSON (Swan) [9.27]: I thinkClause 8 should be amended to embrace all'moneys received by a laud ageut inl respetof thme sale of land or other business trans-acted by him. Land agents carry out otherbusiness apart from the mecre sale of land.Clause 9, toe-

lieu. P. Collier: I think we can best dis-cuss those clauses inl Committee.

'Mr. SPEaKiER: The lion, member mayrefer only to the general principles of theBill. On the second reading I cannot permithill to discuss each of the clauses-

Mr. SAM.PSON: f would like the Bill togo a little further and require agents to setout enl their accounts a statement of theaetoal position with, regard to rates and taxes,as it frequently happens that laud is soldon which a large amount of rates remain un-paid. A little while afterwards the purchaserdiscovers that lie has to pay considerablymore than lie expected, as of course the laudis duie for any rates outstanding.

MTr. 31 ANN (Perth) [9.29]: I had thejpleaenrre of initroduceing to the Minister thedeputation of members of the associationwho desire this Bill to he placed on thesltliute-book. Since a, house and landagent would have to go before a licensingc oulrt to obtain hlis license, and sincehe would have to be irellI recoin-menclded, and have to obtain a renewalof his licenise frenm time to timne, therewould not exist the samne possibility of fraudthat may exist to-day, and it would not bepossible for any person to merely hang uphis sign and call himself a house and landagent. ' urthermiore, the house and land agentwould have to take out a fidelity hond whichto seine extent would secure his clientsagainst fraud. The trust account of a houseand land agent would he just as secure as thetrulst account of a solicitor. The solicitorpays the mnoney into the one account.

Homi P. Collier: That is not the samething.

Mr. M-fA-.NN: A solicitor receives moneyonl behalf of Ili$a clients and pays it into atrust accolunt. The same thing would apply

to te huseand land agent.Hon. P. Qolliar: I. have known of solicitors

who have betrayed their trust.Mr. MNANNX: Only on rare occasions.Hon,. W. C. Angwin: There was a serious

case of that kind in Perth a little time go.Mr. MANN: The Bill contains provisions

to guard agaist any emergency. Subject toone or two slight amendments, which can bemade in Committee, I will support the Bill.

H-on. P. COLLT?JR (Boulder) [9.32]: Twv as inclined to suppert the second readingof the Bill until I heard! froni boll. mcmi-hers that it miet with the hearxty endorse-nulent of the land agents' association.

Capt. Carter: I was speaking of respect-able onles.

Hon. P. COLLIER: I take it that onlyrespectable ones belong to the association.When a body of mnen engaged in the samebusiness, band)f themiselves together in theform of an association anid desire legislationostensibly to protect the puiblic--

Mfr. Mann: Does not the Bill suggestthatI

Hon. P. COLLIER: Ft is always urgedby any association that such letzislation isfor the purpose of protecting the public-it generally haippens it is intended primarilyto preserve the interests of those connectedwith the as9sociation. Sometimes this takesthe forni of monopolist legislation or exclui-sire legislation. There may be so manypersons engaged inl a particular profession,and those concernedI may be doing well in it,,bnt if others are allowed to enter into it theprofits may be distributed over a greaternumber andl individually the profits will de-crease. There is a desire to preserve a nicelittle monopoly in this case.

M-r. Mfann: The Bill dloes not do that.Hon. P. COLLIER: 'It does, to the extent

that a man will not be able to follow the.

720

[8 SEP~i'SMiln, 192 1.] 721

business unless lie all secure backing to tlteextent of £500.

Capt. Carter-: That would only cost hil,5os. a year with any reputable ceompany.

H3onl. P. COLLIER: A company ray nottake every one. Whly single ont thle landagents? Why not include the butchter, thlebaker, atid the grocer?

Mir. Mant,: They do not handle trustmoneys.

IRan. P. COLLI ER: They may not takethe public money in, thtat sense, but they arein a piosition to take the public down. Theobject of the Bill is to prevent nascrupulouslaud agents from taking down the pub-lie. There are many other forlns of busi-ness besides that of a land agent in whichthe maeil engaged are able to take down thlepublic. 'Why 'tot imsist that thte grocer, thebaker or the butcher should go before thecourt and receive the endorsement of themagistrate before being allowed to carry onlbinsinessq

Mir. -Mann: The licensed victuallel has todo that. ,

Holl. P. COLLIER: That is a totally dif-ferent mtatter.

Hol. 'W. C. Angwin: It is the house thatis licensed.

Hon. P. COLLIER: There is n'o companri-son between conducting the business of alicensed house aund conducting thlat of a lan~dagenit.

Mr. Miann: There is jnst as much reasonfor comnparison as in thme ease of the butcher.

Holl. P. COLLTER: Instead of dealingpiece-inel with the various businecsses, thatof a lad agent to-dlay, and tltat Of anl arelli-teet to-ilorrow, why not bring in a compre-hensive imeasure to deal with, themn nli Whynot say that every mnan who desires to carryonl business whether at barbering, auctionieer-ing, or selling groceries, bread, or anythingelse must apply for a license in the maninerprescribed in this Bill, anti satisfy the Courtthat lie is of good characeter and fit to beentrusted with the important work of supply-ing tile public with their requiremnts? 1am surprised that niemibers who stamid forthe encouragement of private enterpriseshould favour legislation calculated to ham-per it. If I should he defeated for liy seatinl Parlianlent at somne future date I doe notknow of any employment that would be mioresuitable to me than that of lanmd agent orauctioneer. I have to look to the future.When one is defeated for Parliament one isleft not only bankrupt in pocket but bank-rupt in reputation as well. In that event itmight be very difficult to find three reputablecitizens to give one thc nescessary reconunen-dlotion, or cay society which would under-take the liability of £.500. I do not waat tobe placed in the position of possibly havingto go to all. tltis trouble and appearing be-fore a magistrate before being able to startin businmess. The magistrate would certainlybear in mind all the timie that I was a de-feated politician, and "-as down and out. Ihave been before a magistrate as a member

of Parliament and I do not know how Ishould get on as a defeated politician.

Air. Angelo: Take to the church.Honl. P. COLLIER: Perhaps I an, too

hardened in the ways of tle world to adoptthat course. I have no desire to place anyobstacle in the way of any citizen who de-sires to earlt anllhonest living.

Mr. Man,,: You do not suggest tilat theBill places such ant obstacle in his way?

Hor,. P. COLLIER-. At present, any nianwho desires to become a land agent may oh-taini a piece of tin,, paint upon01 it the words"'Land Agent,'' get an ollies table, somesheets of paper, and set up in business.

Mfr. Mfa 11: And handle trust mloneyvs.Honl. P. COLLIFER: le is bound to dlo

business with any client who conies allong. Itis not altogether the business of Parliamn~etto protect foolish people, and save tlhen, fromthe results of tlheir folly if they go to anunscrupulous l.and age!nt.

Air. Afachalum Smitht: We protect themfrom the garroters.

Hon. P. COLLIER: Take the business ofthe htoll. niember. "There is nto business it,the coinm'un ity wh i ch has suceh a far reachinginfluence upon the social, commnercial, andeconomic life of the country as that of apowerful newspaper. Ally mia call set tipin that business withou t going before aniagistrate and obtaiitg a fidelity gluaran-tee.

The Minister for Mines: He need not bea mnan to set up !in that busin~ess.

Honl. P. COLLIER: A newspaper is oneof the most powerful agents for good or illthat anyone can conceive of. A newspaperhas tleo power to mould the thought andopinions of every manl anti 'vinian in thecountry in which it circulates. It is 1,0Wproposed to pounce upon cciii patirt-lyinoffensiv'e land agents and say they mustgo before a magistrate, who will closelyscrutinise their features and judge oftheir character from, their physiognom~y. Eve,,then the land agent has no guarantee that liewill get a license. Thle imemiber for Leader-vIll says that all hie has to do is to get threereputtable 'non to recommend him and takeout a fidelity bond at a cost of 50s. a year..It will still be optional with the police niagis-trate, who may be i,lue,,ced, or prejudiced,to refuse a license. The magistrate pos-sesses discretionary powers. He ray say,"'I do not like the look of the man, or thecolour of his hair, or his hard face, and al-though he is well recommended I believe beis capable of doing a dishonest action if begets the opportunity.''

Capt. Carter: The magistrate muist havegood ground for refusing the license othertihan tho facial expression of the individual.

Hort. P. COLLIER: Every magistrate isnot gifted with sound c-onnionsense. As Ihave said, a man canl start a powerful dailyor weekly newspaper to-mnorrow atid its raiii-fieations mnay extend to tile conifines; of tlhoState. It may leave its impress upou themtind antd character of ever)- individual who

722 [ASSEMBLY.]

is unfortunate enough to peruse its columns;bitt lie has not to take out a license to dotliat. lie has not to produce any certificateas to his character nor- enter into any, fidelitybond, lie lint not to stand up in a policecourt and hear the scrutiny of a poliee magis-trate. I could extend that illustration tobutceis, baker,, grocers, and others engagedin various forms of business.

Mir. laectalluutl Soiuth: 'What a bout theChemist ?

I kit. P. COLLIERI: ]in the ease of thlechemnist aid the orchitect it is necessary tosee fliat these 'ten are qutalifled for the worktliey intend to dio, and( they have to pass ex-a nitia tiotns to p rove that.

\ Fr. fa c~alIin Sm~ith : Don 't you thin1ktile prblit, ought to hie protected?

l[ett. P. COLLIER: We leave the publicexposed it a hundrted and one directions tbbe cheated aid defrauded. The respotisi-hility rests largely upon thle individual whois doinug the b~usiniess, whether with a landagent for tile larpose of buying or sellinglanld, or with, any other business person. Theindivid(1ual imust take the precaution of task-ing the tnecessary iniquiries for his own sake.

Mir. MAaeCalltin Smiith : We protect thleindivitlI fromt burglars.

Hett. P. OdLIER: The garroter comesbehind hits in the dark. He does not knowthe mnil is thetre and is taken unawares. inthe other case lie walks into the offie of theland agent with list eyes opent and iii broaddaylight. There is ito cotnparison betweenthe cases. Why not protect the nman whogoes intto a hnitcher 's slhotiln buys badsaursages!

Ali. M-\ault; He is protected under theHealth Act.

Ilot. R. (OLLF EM I do not know thiathie ise. Thtere are tailors whlo sell suits at £8or £9 which are not worth 50s. One may goitnto a draper 's shop an~d buy several yardsof tnice strontg looking calico, for which onehas to pa lovtol price, hilt w~hen cite puts it.into water one finids it is fall of hle and isnothing hut a rag. A~gainst all this shoddyftere is iio provtectiot.

The Preut ier: Blat von see what yrnt buy.Pll. 1'. ('OLLrTR: Tf the Premiiet asks

Paerlin .nt to say. deliberately that it is ourduty atnd respotnsibility to protect all thevii en, ers of tle public whto aire uiot ale, ornot wvise etiough, or not fair-sciti g eiiough, orlack tite ntecessaryv quali fications, to protectthemselves, plossi bly I shall be pirepnred togo with him. Bitt T say, let us do it coal -prehiensivciy, citibraciag all trades and bus,-nesgts-itot sinvglin g out a. few prsons suchas land agents. i.jy view of the Rill is thatit goe. either too far or itot far enough.

'Mr. MarCallunm Smtith : It is a step ill therigltt direction.

Hion. P. COLLIER: Yes, but such a littlestep as not to be worth taking, Let uts takea good stride forward, or else stay where weare. True, a little revenue wvillI result to fileTreasurer froii, tile passingi of the Bill ; lintotherwise I think it is not worth while goinig

onl with tlte mieasu re. However. I shall notopposeC the secotnd reading. With regard toland agents generally, [ do know of oneor two individtials who took dawn thle ptiulicwith regard to the sole of land. They havegot out of the -State. In an'- case, they hoahsnuclh st anin g ill the C-O11 tilni tv thant thteywul d htave exp erieiiedtl o trouble wh~ateveritt securing tile necessary certificate as tocharacter; tile)' woutld have got registered allrightt.

Mr. UNDlERWOOD (Pilbaral) [9.48] 1miove-

That the debate he adjoun ed.Mr. SPEARERl: Tite notion for thle adl-

Journitt1entat oftile dehutte lapses for wen~t ofai seconder.

Mr. UNDERWOOD: Oit this 'neasure Itake tlte samen attitude as the Leader of thleOpposition has adopted. Mly conviction isthat one cati have too muichl legisla tioin. Withthle [cPaier of the Oppositioti I btold tlhat ifuve are going to license everybody who sellsIlild. we should liceinse everybody who rollsatiy'thming else : and so ire shall go right onttntil we have licensed everybody who lives.Stili, it appears to ile that thtere is somiethingtiore iii the Bill. Certaitn people apparentlydesire to secure a inouopoly by 'causing theselicenses to he itiposed and these guaranteesto lie flat 'up-thercb Iv shutting out all othere'oupetitots. F'or the life of tile I cannot seewhy U shiould have a license iii order to sella piece of land any more thtan I should havea license to sell a horse, or a. bullock, or a.mootor ear. or a sausage.

PIon. IV. U. Angwin : Fit order to sell a,saluage, yott niitst get the hecalth authoritiesto agree.

Mr. [ND)ERWOOD: I have tiot to getthe health auithiori ties to agree to ray sellingisausage ; butt if I sell a crook sanisage, tlhe

hialthI anuthorities colle (Iowa oitt ile. If Isell ainy crook Iantd-vlether T have a liceniseto not-there is iio authority to conic downoti ile. fit the nmatter of land transactions,lie ro posedl licenuse wvill iiot prtot ect thle pub-

lic iii even the slightest degree. All the jokesthat I tare known of in conneetion with landsell inti-T havue known of a feo-has e beenpittlup liv itt en who wvoul dexperienlce noii ffictultv whatever ii, obta ining the license.

The 'Nl mister for Alines: Bitt hlow about Te-taiiiig it?

.Ar. tUNDERWOOD: They would inot wantto retait, it a fter they hald put up~ tlteir jokes.The,, they are flitted, flown.

The Minister for 'Mules: 71ut we shall ]iver£500 of their mioney then.

,\f UNDERWNOOD: That is the point.A bout a dozen iten iti Perth want to preventan ,vhody else fiotm comntg iii to do businessin ]lnd selling. : n

lion. P. Cllier: n they are supportingthis.

Irr. T'N\D3YRWOOD: Yes, and strongly.Mr. Corboy: And not half of them are in

the association.

[8 SEPTEMBER, 1921.1 2

1fr. UNDERWVOOD:- The Iy want to keep allthe commiissions for themselves.

C'apt. (Crter: The association nurrbersabout 435 firms.

.1r. ('orbo?-: Yes, and the most respectablelandl agents will not join the association.

11r. t' NDI) ROODI: And( sonmc of the mostdisrepuitalile have joined it. Why, I -askagain, as; the Leader of the Opposition hasasked, should wve bare a licenise at all inthis rear , j .[I ts there any more danger inibuYing aI house or a piece of lanid than inlulivisig ai';vthinsr else? If one buys- had food,One, lnies 5sicik; hut one can not buy'A landthat will ill] cre one 's health. Thle Bill is onewhich f think memnhers of this Asseil~vshoulul protest against. 'This is the killd ofthing that tonics up again and again. Anail ias a biti of land to sell. 'Not having thetime to go around and look for a buyer him-self, lie plac-es thle hit of land with anoth~rniln to sell for him. The bnvcr of land moreIpartii'nlarlAy than any other buyer, in myopimhon. (,i go aind] Judge the purchase forhimnself; andl if the land dloes not suit him,l~cie il not buyv it. But here we have anlattemplt to inake a close corporation of abusiess which, after aill, has not too gooda reputation.

The Premier: We want to improve thatrelita tion.,

NIr. UNDERWOOD: Then I say the Pre-inier is going the wrong way about it bypossibleA kecping out of tile business manyfairly dccent meln.

Capit. Carter: The Bill dloes not mentionthe association, and does miot confine thelicense to nmenmhers of the association. Any-hodly maiy get a license.

Mr.SEAKE1R: Order!Mfr. UNDERWVOOD: The only thing with

regard to which, so far as T canl remember,tile Psrfiamcntariains of Australia have notbeen j-s hionest as they might hiac been island transaetions. I remem~ber a Picture Ofa. tian slaud ilug with iiis hand beind his back,anti a friend is asking hiam, ''What is themiatter with you, old fellowv?' The reply is,

I[ have got land agent s elbow.' " Qotslideof all that, and with every d]ime respect toland agents, I am of opinion that thle peopleof tis eol11iitr canl protect themseI-SC1P, piar-t imilarl-v inl having land.

]Toi.' 1'. ('oIlier: Taking them" all roundl,lanld a'I e utF are Inst as honiest as an)- otherclass of tradlers.

Mr. tN DEROOD: Yes, anid landl is noemtore than any other commodity, and thereis no more reason for establishing a closecorporationl inl tile sellimig, of land than in thleselling of aniy other article that is traded] iii.I tj-rsij tile lhouse will not pass the Bill. Weare running righlt onl to a condition wherea11lost every line of life will he controlledbly statute.

l-Ton. P. Collier: Regimlaetatioul.Mfr. UNDERWOOD: Yes, and red tape,

anld regulation, and registration, and license.in this instaqnce, at all1 events, we are being

asked, to impose legislative restrictions which

are absolutely unnecessary. Generally speak-ing, the better course is to allow people soniclittle liberty, sonc range of choice, protect-lag only. tile absolutely'A foolish and allowingother people to do what they want to do-. Solon~z as a mail dloes not interfere withI tilerights of other people, why should we inter-fi-re with him! As a miatter of fact, if weeuontillil oil the tites, of this Bill, we shallrealli tile breakling poinit, l)0Ca115, after all,hlunm naltuire will run along those lines onlwhidih it wanits to go. I tryst that the Bill willbe rejected, and that thle seller of land willilot be considered anything different fromthle seller of sausages, or of calico, or ofsulgar, or of any other commodity. Tilepersonl buying land can judge tile land forhimself. Ho is buying the land and notthe agent.

Mr. Lathamn: The agent often. buys you.Mr. ('lydesdale: Rather, the agent sells

you.Mr. Underwood: If bie is selling mae, it

seeims to me tllat I should be licensed.The Minister for Mines: Your looks would

lint you out of court.Mir. UNDERWOOD: I trust this Bill will

not bie poassed. It is not warrantted, amnd itWill Ilot Serve any good caumeo; if it servesno good purpose, it should hxot be passed.On the other hand, it may interfere withpeople who are doing legitimate business.

Mr. COEBOY (Yilgarn) [10.2]: I move-That the debate be adjourned.

Question ruit and negatived.

TPhe PREMIER (Hon. Sir Sallies Mitchell_-Nomtllam-in reply) [10.3] : Thlere is :i

good deal of niisuaderscanding regardingtis Bill. We simply say that a mlu whosells land as a land agemnt and who receivesmioney for tile sale of landI belonging toanlothe r personi, shall properly account tothe owner of the land for the iMoney de-rived by that sale. We protect tile public.To comipare tile man who is a land agentwithi the mian who sells calico, is absurd andridiculous. A porson buying calico can seethle mlaterial before him and see exactlyu-hat hie is buying.

lion. P. Collier: So can you. see tile liiiidyou are buying.

The PREMIER: This 'Bill does not pro-tect the buyer, but the seller of thle land.The Bill Provides that a mail who sells landmiust be licensed and be guaranteed by afidelity bend; when 'he receives money onaccount of the sale of land owned by aclient the agent mnust place that money in

atus accouint, which means, of course,that if the land agent owes money to otherpeople, the money received for the sale orthle land cannot be attached by hiscreditors. We provide in a very simplefashion protection to the public who placetheir business in the hands of land. agents.\A'e a-re enititled to dTo that, and it shouldbe dlone. We license auctioneers and we

723

724 [ASSEMBLY.]

have done that for the past 40 years. Ithink it was in 1873 that the first licensewas issued. The time has conic when weshould license land agents. To say that thebusiness of the land agent is the same asthat of a man who sells sausages, is absurd.Sometimes the transactions which passthrough the hands of laud agents are verylarge indeed. Large estates are placed intheir hands for sale, and big deposits arehanded to the land agent when the sales aemade. We ask that the land agent shall bea man of good repute and that he shalltake such steps as are necessary to safe-guard his clients' money. I hope the Housewill agree to the Bill. It is a simple mneasurethat can easily be understood. It is askedfor by the land agents themselves. It willnot set up any monopoly. There is no limitto the nnumber of licenses that can beissued. It is a good measure and it shouldbe passed.

Question put and passed.

Bill read a second time.

BTLL-ArCTIONEEES.

Debate resunmed from 1st September.

Hon. W. C. ANOWVIN (North-East Fre-mantle) [10.7]: This Bill is merely a eon-solidation measure, so far as I con see. Itcontains the provisions now in the vari ousActs, and there are no new clauses, with theexception that auctioneers are licensed thesame as land agents. I think the condition ofaffairs has changed] considerably since 1873.I do not see any necessity now for districtlicenses. There inight he provision for gem.-oral licenses and country licenses only,. Gen-era] licenses authorize thle auctioneer to sellin any part of the State. A district licenseis a license for umagisterial districts outsidethe city of Perth and the town of Fre-mantle. In my opinion, district licensesshould be cut out altogether, for they arenot required. As a matter of fact, thewhole area from Midland Junction to' Fre-mantle is really one town and there is nonecessity to differentiate as in 1873. Thereshould also be provision in the Bill wherebya person, whether a licensed auctioneer or not,should be able to sell goods in connectionwith charity movements.

The Premier: I think there is provisionfor that.

Hor. W. C. AN~IWIN: I doa not think so.Mr. Alann: Look at Clause 11.Ron. W. C. ANGWIN: That is for baz-

aars, etc., but not for general charityauctions, and so on.

Mr. Mann: It provides for bazaars or salesof gifts for charitable or Church purposes.

Hon. W. C. ANOWIN: If so, I must haveoverlooked that point. At any rate I am ofthe opinion that the district licenses shouldbe struck out of the Bill and only two licenses

retained, the country liense and the generallicense.

The Premier: We would lose a good dealof rceeue if we dlid that.

Ifr. -McGALLIJM (South Frenmantle)[10.10]: 1 do not complain of the generalp~rinci pie underlying this Bill, but I wouldlike to see one or two alterations miade inconnection with it. T'here is a provision fora special license which costs the applicant aguinea.

The Premier: That is the provision now.Mr. McCALLUTM: Many of the auctioneers

who are carrying on business in a smuall waydo their own work. -If such a person falls ill,hie imust engage someone to do the work forhim. That person would have to procure aspecial license and it would cost a guinea aday. That is a very heavy penalty to imposeupon an individual who is placed in thatposition.

The Premier: They pay that now.-Mr. 'McCALLIJM: Then it is a heavy pen-

ilty. Auctioneering is particularly hard onthe voice and auctioneers have to rest occa-sionally. Provision shmould be made w~herebyan auctioneer who is unable to continue hiswork throuigh illness or some other legitimatecause, may obtain a special license for hisassistant covering a w'eek or somue such period.He should not he compelled to take out adaily license. There is another matter, hutI1 do not know wihether it is possible to dealwith it unmder this Bill. Some of the Euro-pean market gardeners have suggested thatprotection should he afforded thoem by Imeansof an amendment to this Bill to emable themto rest on Sundays. At present they have toget to thme markets on Mlonday mornings inorder to secure the benefit of the NT~ondaysales. To do that, they have to work onSn day afternoon and evening.

The Premier: That is a matter for theFrma ntle miunicipality to dleal with.

Mfr. )-.cC,%ALIJ: it is a question ofwhether it (;in be dealt with in this Bill.Chinanmen will work all day Sunday and getto market early on Monday morning. [aorder to compete with Chinamen, theEuropeans have to do likewise. They wantto cut out the Sunday work if possible' andbe in a position to enjoy their Sunday restas others do. Would it be possible toprohibit the sales on Monday mornings byamendment to this Bill?

The Premier: I (10 not think it wvould bepossible. It is really a matter for the Fre-mantle Municipal Council.

M\r. MeCALLTJM: The Fremantle Councilwould Only he able to legislate for their owndistrict.

Thme Premier: But the sales ire held in theFremantle district.

Mr. McCALLUMf: That would not preventanyone selling at a private market.

Ho,,. W. C. Angwin: There are privatemarketsq there now.

[8 SEPTEMBsER, 1921.]72

Mr. MxcCALLTJM-: I would like the Pre-mier to consider this point, for I think hewould be willing to give these gardenersthe consideration they seek. Apart fromthese two points, I see no objection to theBill.

Mr. CORBOY (Yilgarn) [10.13]: When themember for North-East Froenantle (Hon. W.C. Ang-wia) was speakdig, the member forPerth (Mr. Mann) interjected that Clause 11provided for auctioneers selling goods atbazaars and sales of gifts for charitable orchurch purposes. On looking at that clauseagain, I think, the member for North-EastFremantle is right. With the member forN~orth-East Fremnantle, I think that any per-son should be able to act as an auctioneer forthose purposes without being licensed.

MMnn: I agree with that.Mr. CORBOY:. The suggestion by tho mom-

her for Perth was not correct. Clause 11does not cover the position referred to by themember for North-East Premntle. Clause 11merely provides that a person engaged i nauctioning goods for charitable or church pur-poses may act as an auctioneer after sunsetor before sunrise. The ordinary licensedauctioneer is not allowed to do that, Thepoint raised by the member for North-EastFremantle is one worthy of consideration.

Mr. Mann: I anm afraid what you say inright.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time,

In Committee.MVr. Stubbs in the Chair; the Premier in

charge of the Bill.

Clauses 1 to 6-agreed to.

Clause 7-Granting of licenses.

MNr. SAMPSON: f move anl amendment-That after ''Act" in line 6 the words

"tsubject to the deposit of a fidelity bondof £E500'' he inserted.

Amendment put and negatived.

Clause put and passed.Clauses 8 to 10-agreed to.

Clause 11-No person to act as an auc-tioneer after sunset or before sunrise:

lion. IV. C. ANGWIN: The question ofselling vegetables on a Monday morning isan inmportant one. I think an amendmentmight be niade which would cover the sug-gestion of the member for South Fremantle.As a rule, the white community in thisState does not work on Sundays. Yet inthe suburban areas Asiatic gardeners workon Sunday;, bring their vegetables tomarket next morning, and so kill the whitemait's market on the Tuesday morning. Iremember that when I was a boy the northcountry fishermen used to fish on Sundaysand send their catch to market on Mondays,

thus flooding the. market against otherfishermen who refused to fish on a Sunday.It resulted in i riot, and every fishermnanwho came into port on that day was throwninto the sea. It served to stop the practice.

Mr. Macalluin Smith: Well, why notchuck the Fremantle Chinese gardenersinto the sea next Mondayl

Rion, W. C. ANGTWIN: Fruit may comein from the country on Saturday and besold in the markets. on Monday morning,but most of the vegetables are grown inthe suburban areas. There are many com-lalints from -vegetable growers at Fre-mantle that their Tuesday's market isspoilt by the 'Monday's auctioneering ofChinese grown vegetablesg. The municipalcouncil can close the municipal markets onMonday, 'but cannot interfere with privatemarkets. Many of the white vegetablegrowers are returned soldiers.

The Premier: 'Well, what do you want todo about it?

The Minister for Mines : Amend theSunday Observance Act to provide thatChinamen shall not carry vegetables onSunday.

Hion. W. C. ANGWIN: It can be doneunder this clause, which restricts the hoursof selling. If restrictions can be imposedin one direction, they can be imposed, inanother. I think it would be justified whenwe see returned soldiers deprived of theirmarket by Chinamen who are prepared towork all day Sunday.

Mr. Sampson: The vegetable grower, likethe fruit grower, is forced to work everyhour of the day in order to make a living.

Hfon. WV. C. ANGWLN: - These returnedsoldiers do not bring in their vegetablesfor Mkonday morning's market.-

Mr. Boyland: They do it in Kalgoorlie.Hon, V, C. ANOGWIN: Sonic of them may

have to do it. Apparently the hon. memberis in favour of Sunday labour.

IM r. Boyland: NonsemsplThe Minister for Mines: Leau want to

prevent 'Monday labour.Hon. IV. C. ANGWJN : The man who

lives several miles out of town has to leavelate on Sunday night in order to get hisvegetables to market on the Monday morn-ing, having previously worked all daySunday getting ready for the journey.

M-r. Money: But people want vegetableson Mlonday morning.

Hon. VW. C. ANOWIN: They can managewi th whet they buy on Saturday.-

Mr. Macalluni Smith: How ninny Chineseare thiere?

lion. NV. C. ANOTWIN: A good number.This has; been a serious grievance at Fre-mantle for some time, and we arc entitled togive the protection desired if we possibly cando0 so.

.Mr. -McCALLUM: I hope members on thmecross benches will support this proposal be-

7 2.5

726I[ASSEMBLY. I

cauls,, it conmes front a. primary producers'erganisattien. The Spearwood market gar-detners mtet last night and asked mue to en-deavoutr to get this provision inserted in the13ill, They are complaining of the oppositionof the Xsiaties. Thle development at the PeelEstate, wAhere thle Premier iA settling returnedsoldiers mhoe are concentrating on miarketgardening aitd dlairying, will cause more aer-ions confliet with the Asiaties than now exists.If we can meet the request of these producersand provide that titey shall have their Sundayoff, we should (10 so.

Thle Minister for Mines: This is not the Billini which to do it. You want to amend theMunicipal Corporations Act giving the councilpower to make a by-law to that effect.

Air. MfeCALLUJM: 'What is more simplethan to provide in this Bill that there shall beno nuetioneering of vegetables on Monday?

The Minister for -Mines: in Fremnantle.W hat aboot Kalgoorlie?

Mr. MeCALLUYM: I do net snppose thatvegetable growers at Kalgoorlie wish to workon Sunday.

The Mlinister f or Ines: Freniantle is theonly place where it applies.

Mr. 11cCALL-UNI : WhVat about PerthDoes not it apply to the gardeners at OsbornePark? [t applies in every' district whereniarket gardening is carried Ott. Tf We pro-hilbit nuttioneering ott MYonday, these peoplewill r'ofraiu fromn working ott Sundlay.

Mr. 2Manu: NYou are going to prevent all thleretailers. front carrying on bulsiness on -Mon-day, bcaltse they) get their suipplies on thattdlay.

Mr. eCLU : Nothing of thle kind.If there is tio auetiottcerittg onl Monday,there will be no need to xvork oit Sttda.

Mr. \IacCnl9luin Smlith: All the retail.shopsq Iroll have to close onl M1onday, be-cause thur would be utnable to get supplies.

M.Fr. 3IrCAJILI1: Thtey could lhave sup-plies carted itt ott M\ontidy.

Air. Mannut: Yott have seen lttutclsds o1'these dealers' carts coutiutg in on MVotday.

Mlr. Mt-CAULI: I thtittk thero is s ttuchfrttit antd vegetables proeeiccl in the l're-ntantle dlistrict as itt antv district.

Thte P'remkier: Yott vautot settle, thatpoitnt hereV.

--Ur. 3l~. ~ I I inue att :ttttetul-

Thlat tifter "vompaiy," inl lite 4, thefullon julg wvordts be iutser-ted: "alut 1toperslon Shll] act as aucetiotteer for tlie saleof Vegetables betwecti the bouts iOf itid-itght ott * nit Snulay And( midnight on anyMonda.The NINISTEII POllMNS While it

])lght he tite desire of evecry urtctlsOC to prIC-ipitt unneesmary labour onl thle babhatlt,there are ways of doing this whiel would be:

effective and others which would he abstird.I am afraid the amendment is aI~sut'd, ThisBill deals writh the licensing of auctioneers,8qnd the only restriction placed ott their opera-tions is that they shall not conduct sales bye-tween sunset and sunrise. To say that be-cause one person is called upon to work onSunday another shall not work onk Monday isa puositive absurdity. It would be tantamountto saying that because we run A. train out OfKalgoorlie ott Staay which d~oes tuot reach itsdesti it tiOtt it til M otnday, we shitut d to t per -mit anuyb ody- to work oIL Monday itt order toprevetnt the Sunday work. W\e cannot legis-lute ott titose litnes;. This is tnot a generalp~riniteple applyintg to thle whole State. It ap-plies largely to Freuttantle and to a ectainextent to Pett. Sutrely it should be a ques-tion to be decided in those areas. If thinFrettantle people can do without vegetablesott Mondav, thle local authority, under theMfu nic ipnc I'orpornt tiots Act ot hiwtake ab y-lw to pt-eet -sales Onl -Monday. TheKalgoorlie Counctil coutld do likewise if it wasso desired. It would be a simiple mnatter fortlte Iton. mtember to bring down a smiallamniidment to the Mutticipal CorporationsAct giving the council pawer to mnake a by-lawr, so that the necessary restriction as re-gards Moanday sales coutld be imposed. Whatwe are ptroposing to do is to provide for thelicensing of anetioners to conduct tlto busi-2kess. It is Iudesim-able to allotw auctiotns totake place at night, because people want toknow what thiey are purchasitig.

Capt. CARTER: I represent a large pro-portion of the vegetable growers in the met-ropolitan areca. Thle regular market days forvegetables are Monday, Wednesday, and Fri-day, and the retailers buy their supplies frontthe wholesalers tot' distributtitot ott TneSday,Thuttsday, and qaturday. If the retailer canl-tint buy oit tlte Monday he will htave to buyont tite Tuesday and the Wedttesday, whichn-ill leav-o hint tno tittie itl which to distributeItis goods. The atnendmtent will leave thingsopen for utuscrupoulous agetnts. It will notprevetnt Chinaunen and othter aliens from cut-titng their vegetables on Snuday and takintgtbettt round to cte housesi ott Monday. Thtiswill seriously affect the white retailers. Thteimndmeot should not be eairt-ed.

Mr. BOY'LAND: 1 aut opposed to thleatietiueut. Thtete ar-c other parts of thteState to be routsidered besides those in-tioned. Tt people of Kalgoorlie want to beable to get the fresh vegetables that aregrowit ott the fields, tanl, if anything inter-fetes with tiet Mtarketintg of their vegetableswhuen thter beconue ripte, tltey trill siier greatIlItIss.

M. Tr. AN G ELO0: My suggestioni to thle.E'uropean vegetable growers is that theyshkoldaalanat and qTrratuge with the nut-tioticer tnt to sell ott thle Moutday tlue vege-tables that htave been gathered by. ('hittanutuon the Su tnday.

Progress reported.

726

[13 SEPTEMBER, 19O1.]

BILLS (4)-FIRST READING.

1. Courts of Session.2. Reciprocal Enforcement of Judgments.3. Local Courts Act Amendment.4. Evidence Act Amendment.Received front the Council.

BILL-F REMNA NTLE MUNICIPAL TRA-WAYS AND ELECTRIC LIGHTINGACT AMENDMENT.

Returned fromi the Council without amend-meat.

Honuse adjourned at 10.54 p.in.

legislative flsscmblv,Tuesday, 13th September, 19ft.

Questions: Refrerator, Perth ..Fruit Stall, Perth Railway Station

Temporary Chirmen of CommitteesBills: stallions, Registration, Message

Building Societies Act Amendment,inspection of Mlacinery, 2R.. Coin.Laud Agents. Curn......Auctioneers, Conn.Electoral Act Amendment, 2R.

Report.

Page727727727727727738743745

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30 p.m.,and read prayers.

QUESTION-REFRIGERATOR,PERTH.

Mr. SAMPSON asked the Mlinister forAgriculture: Is it his intention to Jay on theTable of the House the report of the boardof inquiry or commission in connection withthe proposed erection in Perth of a ref rig-eratort

The MINIfSTER FOR AGRICULTURE re-plied: It is not clear from the question whatreport is required by the hon. member, buthe may inspect any papers relating to thismatter and then move for whbat he requires.

QUESTION-FRUIT STALL, PERTHRAILWAY STATION.

Mr. SAMPSON asked the Minister forRailways: 1, Will he teke the necessary storeti establish a fruit stall or kiosk at the Perth

t26]

railway station? 2, If so, will he make it acondition of leasing that the dinily perioddluring which such stall or kiosk be kept openfor business be such as to give opporttenityfor travellers en all trains to purchase fruitY

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS replied:1 and 2, The right to sell fruit at the Perthrailway station is embraced in the lease ofthe rights to sell refreshments, which leasedoes not expire until the 30th June, 1923.The Commissioner proposes to arrange suit-able accommodation for the display and saleof fruit, which will enable the lessee to makea feature of this branch of the business.

TEMPORARY CHAIRMTEN OF COM-MITT !ES.

Mr. SPEAKER: I desire to inform: theHouse that I have appointed as temporaryChairmen of Committees the noesnbcr forHannans (Mr. MuIinsie) and the member forGascoyne (Mr. Angela).

BILL-STALUIONS REGISTRATION.Message from the (l1ove raur received and

read reconmnending the Bill.

I3ILL--B3UfLDING SOCIETIES ACTAMENDMENT.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon.F. TF. Broun-e-ericy) [41371: A notice ofa proposed amendinent appears on the NoticePaper for consideration on recommittal ofthis Bill. That amendment was prepared in.order that it might go before another placewhen the Bill is being considered by mem-birs there. I do not know howt it cameto appear on the Notice Paper of the A ssem-bly. I do not intend to move for the re-committal of the Bill. I move-

That the report of the Comnmittee beadopted.,

Question put and passed; the Reportadepted.

BIIL-UTNSPErCTION OF MACHINERY.

Second Reading.

Debate resumned from the 1st September.Hon. P. COLLIER (Boulder) [4.39]: As

the Bill provides for the continntiec ofmost of the provisions of the existing In-spetion of M1%achinery Act, 1904, and f or afew amendments, it is essentially a measurefor. consideration in Committee, and I do notpropose therefore to take up the time of theHouse in discus~iag the Bill at the secondreading stage. Generally speaking, the Billmeets with soy approval. It niums be ex-rected, of course, regarding any Act thathas been in operation without amendmentfor the past 17 years, that the experience ofthe department in administering the Act