Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

TUESDAY, 31 JULY 1906

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Leat•e qf Absence to a ..~.7J:lember. (31 JULY.] Address in Reply. 75

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

TCESDAY, 3l,Jur,Y, 1906.

The PRESIDF.XT (Hon. Artbur Morgan) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

LEA YE OF ABSEKOE TO A ME:IlBER. HON. F. If. HOLBERTON.

Hox. W. F. TAYLORmoved, without notice, that leaw of otb«ence for two months be granted to the Hon. F. H. Holberton.

The PRESIDENT: Is it the plea,:ure of the ·Council that the motion be put without notice?

HoNOt:RARLE GEN'I'LE:\IEN : Hear, hear !

Thfl SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION (Hon. A. H. Barlow): I may stat<' that the leave of this House is of no value whatever to preservfl a member's seat. The Con­stitution Act of 1&i7 ~lays that the leave of absence must be granted by the Government. I am exceedingly sorry to hear that the Hon. Mr. Holberton is so ill that he rerJ.uires leave of absence, and, of cour;:;e, I do not offer the slightest opposition to thP- hon. member's motion.

HoN. G. VV. GRAY: The Hon. Dr. Taylor only asks for l~ave of absence fur two months­not for the session.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IX­STRUCTION: But suppose the session lapses during the two months?

Question pnt and passed.

PAPER.

The following paper, laid on the table, ·was ordered to be printed :-Twent,y-second report of the creation, i~sue, and inscription of stock.

NATIVE ANIMALS PROTECTION BILL. FlRS'r REAmNo.

Tk SEORBTARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION presented a Bill to protect certain native animals, and moved that it be read a first time.

Question put and passed; and the second read­jug of the Bill made an Order of the Day for Tuesday, 14th August.

INDUSTRIAL AND REFORMATORY SCHOOLS BILL.

FIRST RE.\DIKG.

Th' SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION pt·esented a Bill to amend the Industri<:~.l and Reformatory Schools Act of 18G5, and moved that it be read a fiu;t time.

Question put and pa;:;sed; and the second reading of the Bill made an Order of the Day fol" Tuesday, 14th August.

ADDRESS IN REPLY. RESU:Ml'TION OI•" DEBATE.

Ho:x. A. GIBSO:S: I riso as one of the "critical" members~that being the 1ww designation by the Hon. the .:\linbter for Education, aucl I notice· abo by tht> lPader in the othe;· Hou~e. and 1 do Hot think we 11eed be· at all ashamed at the definition given to u'l. I am quite sure that the busiJK•·,. of last sB-<sion wa,-; Ycry carefully con~iclered b:v us, and that the position of the Government was strengthened by the position we took up on that occasion. It is my intention in the future, as it has been in the past., to seriously considel" every measure as it comes before us. I shall :;peak on it and Yote on it according to 1vhat I think is best for the country, in·es­pcctive of party. Thai; is the position I take up. \Vith regard to the ~peech deliv~n;d to us by His Excellency the Governor, I JOll1

with ochor hon. gentl<>men who have Rpoken in congl"atulatory feelings towards the gen­tleman who represents royalty in this St-ate. I am quite sure from what we have seen of him, and from what we have heard of the position he has taken up among the people in Queensland, that he does not stand second to anyone who has OCC'!lpied Government House in the past. The only thing I am sorry for in that respcet is that we should require him to take £2,000 a year lc~s than ·we have paid to his predecessors for doing the same work. It might be well, perhaps, before his term of office exp1res if, in the ordinary way of busiueo;s, this House should suggest that he gets a bonus. Following upon that, I come to a subjPct that is more sorrowfuL I join with other hon. gentlemen in my sorrow for the depart.ur.e of the gentleman who occupied the highest position in this House--

Hon. A. Gibs on.!

76 Address in Reply. [COUNCIL.] Address in Reply.

Sir Hugh Nelson. Enough has been said to indicate the feeling of this House towards that hon. gentleman. He was a good and a capable man, and it will be very hard to find his like again in the various positions that he filled. \Ve are all also very grateful to Pro­vidence for the splendid rains which came down upon our Stato during the last six or seven months, and this afternoon also for the indications of more, all so necessary for tho building up of our natural products and the meeting of our financial requirements. Being one of those who derive some benefit from it, I naturally delight in the fact that we are remembe-red by tho Giver of all these good and great gifts. Then we are referred to the sugar industry, a subject which always comes forward. and naturall.v so, for an industry that can give nearly £2,000,000 to the State is one that is worthv of some consideration. The Hon. Mr. Gray ~referred to it last week, and on the same occasion the Hon. Mr. 11-lurphy wanted to know why after the reduc­tion in the number of kanakas there is still as large growth of sugar·cane in the State as there was in the past. Of course, we do not expect that hon. genthcman t.o know a great deal abont :mQ."ar-growing-. although he told us that :-:ome thirty or fortv voars ago he was looking about t.o see whethe~ he could plant cane or not in the neighbourhood of Brisbane. I may info1·m him t:hut mme is not like wheat, oat;:., or potatoes. which have to be put in every yE>ar. I have seen roots of can<? in the ;;oil for ten year~. All that requires to be done is to cut the cane down each year. In anv case it will stand two, throe. or four year;;~ and so b0forc the kanaka lf'ft the planter had bef'n puttinz in his 1.:ane in view of having some­thing in the ground when the evil which he saw coming ;;hould come. 'The Hon. ::\Ir. DaYey, ·who has travelled in the North, and seen a good deal of what was going on there, seem;; to be so thoroughly sati~.fied with what he ~aw that he is not a bit afraid the industry will be a >:~nccc:>s when all the kanakas will be gone, and white men ·will be on the ground doing the work. I am afraid, hon. gentlemen, that )Jr. Davey has not any money in the con· cern. If he had he would look at it from a very different standpoint. Speaking of it from my .~tandpoint.-and I am not here this after­noon to acln)cate tile retention or deportation of the kanakao;-legislation has declared that a certain thing shall be done, and I with many others have proparecl oursdves for what. ever the result may be, and we shall make the best we can of it. But I will refer to this SLtbject later on. Jt is very pleasant to notice t!mt pro>:~p£>rity has been so abundant that the people have had money to inve~t in banking institutions, and more e;;pecially in the Govern­ment Saving.~ Bank. It is pleasant that the t1orker is making so much rn>nov that he is pntting aside some of it for a rainY day. But. speaking from my standpoint, I am not at all clear that it is an indication of the prosperity of the State tn see so much money accumu· lating in the banks, and which the banks are prepli.r(>d to lend out by thousands nnd tens of thousands. It was not so in the old days. l\'len did not then put their money into banks and look for intere•,t from it on which t.o live. That was not the old way of doing bu&iness. Tlwre was a go in thf' mBn of those days. They went out to speculat<~, spending th<Jir money on ventures, whether they won or lost by it. Some made money, others lost. their capital in the-ir ventures. \Vhen we sec the capital in the banks accumulating it is an indication that some pe>rson,; arc saving their money, but I hold it would be much better 1or the State

[Hon. A. Gibson.

if our industries were b0iog ext<~nded, if our fnrms were being taken up, if our railways were moving out, and an advancing tide of settlers was following them out every clay. Until we arrive at that stage I hold that it is not prosperity to have money in our banks, and nobody in the outside country. Speaking for myself, I never bank money, except. to draw a cheque for it again, and pay it out in carrying on business so that other peoplt\ may find employment. To have man-ay in the Savings Bank, unless it i-s used by the Got-ern­mPnt, is not doing the State much good, and certainly is not advancing tho interests of those outside. Then the Treasurer congratulates himsel£ en baYing been able to make ends meet. i\Iaking ends meet does not always mean advance. Howev;:er, the Treasurer has made ends meet, and he had £127,000 to the good at the end o£ last ye.ar, and he speaks of it, from his own ;;tandpoint, with pride. But to some of us outside it is not a pleasure, but a grave hardship, that the Treasurer should be in that position. My friend, tho Hon. M. J ensen, taikecl about something that was being done in another country, and said not only did the people living on farms there maintain their own roads and highways, but actually assisted the Government in keeping other roads and highwavs. VVhv should we talk about what is done ill GermaTI.y and other parts of Europe, and coml,?al·e them with a place like Qneen<~land? 'i\hore is the com­parison? Were our roads not made by the­people, and did not the people move out on tu the land in the good old days of Sir Thomas J\'Icilwraith? If we were prepared to put down £1 of our own money, tho Government then put down £2 for the making and main­tenance of roads. But the amount contri­buted by the Government has come down and down, until now we have arrived at the con­dition that the people in the country are told they must make their own roads. Vr'"e are doing what they are doing in Em·ope-we are making our O\VU roads, and we are called upon to pay taxes to keep other people's roads. People are told that if they go out into the country and take up land they must take out tnw!l and stumps, and make culverts and bridges as best thev can. That is a very nice state of affairs. But it is what is ex· pccted from people going on the land. It is sickening to hear all this talk about putting people on the land, and find that after they have settled on tho land and tilled it they have to travel 20 or 25 miles over bogs and swamps, up hills and down gullies, in order to get their produce to marke-t. We may t'"ll the people that we have plenty of land available, and that it is good land-all the conditions as put on paper by the Govern­ment are very pretty-but the question is: How is a man to get his products to market after he has grown them? The Government have still to consider this matter, and to determine how to induce people to go on the land.

The SECRETARY FOR Pum.IC Il'<STRUCTION: Burst up the big estates-that is ono way,

lioN. A. GIBSO::\r: I should like to take the hon. gentleman to one of tho:->e big estates, and give him 500 acr>?.s to cultivate, let him gro"'. his produce, and get it to market as best he can. I am sure he would very soon leave 1;he land, and try to get into Parliament aqain. He does not work here as hard as thfl man who ha~ to work in the field in his shirt ur flannel, ancl use a sweat-rag to take the sweat off his face. I wish now to refer to a statement of the Hon. l\1. J ensen to the effect that in outside places children are taken a. way

Add1·ess in Reply. [31 JuLY.] Address M Reply. 77

from scho<;Jl at tweJyo or thirteen )'ears of nge, and that, m fact, they are not schooled. How can they be :'lch;)o]cd? 'l'hey ha-ve to leave ;;chool to go and help "clad" ·to make a living out of the land. I recentlv read a speech made h:y one of the hon. m0mbers for Forti, tnde Valley, in wbich he Cipoke about the S\Veating that is taking place 111 our cities. There i;; no sweatiug like that he spoke of among the men on the land. 'l'ho:y work the land in the hope that tlwy will make some­thiug from t.heir labour iu th8 long run. I come nmv to the question of immigration. \Ye have had immiP;ration on t.he brain for the last five or six years, and we do not appear to be any nearer its accomplishmeut then we wore Rix years ago. It i;; a vf'ry 11ice stalking-hor5e for the GO\·ernment, but in the Governor's Speech there is no indication that any pro­vision has h0en made for immigration. If the ':!urplus of £127,000 were taken and used as a means of inducing immigrants to come to the State, there would pos,ibly be somet-hing gained by having a surplus, but if it i;; only to be used to help our friends to come to the country, aq. the .Hon. J_ T. Annear suggested, then there wtll not be much benefit det·ived from ih ex­penditure. I shall be glad when I see a sy>;t-em 9f immigration introduced such as was in force m the days of tho late i\[r, Henry Jordan, when t-here were verv few· people in this State. Immigrants weie then brought here bv hundreds and thomands. I C'ame among those people, and I never heard of men starving in those days for want of ·work. Thme was work found for them. Thf're were no unions in those days to 1·etard them from going out into the country, and there was every en· couragement for men to go right away out, although it oftcntimes took them a month to get West or North. J}fa.ny of those people are to·day wcll.to·do farmers and pastoralists. I was pleased to hear the Hon. Mr. Campbell speak about the settlement that is ta"king place out in the district in which he resides. It is a ple!asure to know that so far out as that people are settling on the land, and I hope that mining towns will be started in that district before very long, so that farming may be followed there with every prospect of sue" cess. If we could find employment for hundreds and thousands of men vears ago, when we had only about 150,000 priop!e in the State, surely we can find employment for them now when the population numbers 500,000. Now, I come to our friend, the Land Mono­poly Tax BilL I am pleased that this House blocked that measure for the time being, and I am sure that we saved the Government situ· ation then by not allowing tho Bill to pass. I trust that the idea sketched out in this new measure will be so liberal that gentlemen on both sides of the Houso will be able to see their way to support it, and to bring about a reform in our land le>gislation. I do not think there are any owners of large runs who are not willing to sell for a fair consideration. They would be only too pleased to sell their land if they were given a fair price for it. If we are prepared to do the right thing and the straight thing as a Parliament towards these peoptc, well, there is the land op011 and readv for hundreds and thousands to take up. A jUdicious system of immigration would do a b'-emendous amount of good, and malte this country what I for one look to see it become-­happy, prosperous, and free,

Hon. R. H. SMITH: You refer to the old land.order system, I take it?

Ho-s. A. GIB SON: The old land-order system was a very good system. I bought my firs~ land in this State, land not far from Bris-

bane, with an £18 land order. Immigrants in those days got auothcr £12 land order after being here for two years, so that the total face value of the land orders was £30,

Hon. R. H. Si\ll'l'H: So did I buy my first land with a land order. \Ve ha\'e not evolved a better S't'Stem of immigration since. Ho~. A~ GIB SON: The idea to-day is that

the Government should keep the people, but tlwn the people had to try to keep the Govern. ment. I am pleased to see the indication in the Speech that a labour department is to be established. I think that is a very necessary thing to have in the Statf', For a good many years I have had in my own mind ideas as

to how to find employment for the [4 p.m.J youth of the State. h·obably there

are 500 or 600 youths in this city ready for work every year. These youths callnot find employment in our cities, and they become a nuisance, as they herd about the strE"ets, finding no employment of a char­acter that will raise them from boyhood to manhood. This proposed department of labour should look carefuliy after the best interests of the young men in our cities. I saw a report the other day in one of tho Sydney papers to the effect that in Sydney there are 5,000 youths, from twelve to seventeen years of age, going about the city who could find no re­munerative employment. VVhat must the effect of so much idleness as that haTe upon the future generation o£ New South \Vales and (~ueensland? There are in the sugar industry and in other industries possibilities of employ­ment for young lads of that description. 'Cnder our irrigation system one man is required for c\·ery 5 acres, if the very best results are to be obtained from irrigation, and lads fourteen or fifteen years of age could do much of that work admirably. I have had them doins- it with a fair amount of success. It was, I thmk, Mr. Glas:;ey, who in years gone by deplored the fact that our children were growing up with­out the least possibilitJ of bettering them­J>elYes, and he wondNe where the youth of this State were going to find employment. Other men before him, and since that time, haYe been wondering what we shall do with the youth of the State. You cannot put all the lads into factories. \Vo want to get them into industries where they will become pro­ducers and improve their condition. A story has be.en told by Mr. 'Turnbull, of New South Wales, in which it is related that two lads of twelve years of age, taken from a reformatory, were sent to the Tweed River some twelve or fourteen years ago, 'l'hey were hired out to a dairyman, they used their eyes, their hands, and their intellects, and when they got their money they acquired areas of land, and to·day they are living in Sydney and hiring out their land for dairying purposes. They have retired after twelv-e or fourteen years, and have left others to do the work Mention is made of our dairying system in the Governor's Speech, and it is pleasant to know that there are possi­bilities for dairying in this country, I do not lmow whether it will be a success or not, becausec we have ex.traOJ·dinary weather ~omct.i:nes, and cxb·aordinarv difficulties sonwtimes with our ca";:tle .. I ha~e ·een dairymen lose the whole of their herds in a Yery ~;hort timE\, but. perhaps some scientist will come along and tell us how to cope with ticks, redwater, and ot-her Pvils, and perhaps we shall some day have a Government wbo will see that artesian water is found in waterless areas, that our rh·ers and every streamlet of running wabr are dam~ed. With su0h facilities it will be comparatively t·asy for the people to make homes on the land in the future. This dairying industry

Hon. A. Gibson.]

78 Address in Reply. [COUNCIL.] Address in .Reply.

has in it some of the best opportunities for finrling employment for our yotmg people, and if the fathc>rs and mothers of boys would only spare them from the city life and assist them for a while when they enter :mch employment it would be better for both old and young. At the present time by our lBgi~lation-·-J re­fer to the \Vorker.:;' Compen:::ation Act-a man is regarded as infirm if he is over fifty-five year-:; of age. (:nder that Act we have to get a medical certificate that a man is not over fihy-fiYe years of age-, otherwi·;(~ the insuran.ce companies will not take the risk. \Vhat a law that is, which compE-l:; a hale, hearty man to beg for work! I am not infirm though I am 0\·er sixty. I nm not infirm mentally or physically. I do not care for the youngest man in the House, as far as that goe-s---(laughter)­<>nd yet when men come to me asking for work

·I have to STIJ to them, '' l\Iy boy, I cannot hire son until you get a doctor's certificate saying that you are not infirm.,_ That is a provi.~ion of a law we passed last year debarring capable men from getting- employment. It is intimated i.'l the Opening Speech that it is the intention of th<:> Government to introduce an Insurance Bill-that is, a Bill to insure workers. A Bill of that natare should have bem1 brought in befcl'P we passed th··· \Vorkers' Compensation Act, as such a mea:mre is neCi~ssarv for the protection of such old mE'n as I have described. If men were settled on the land they would have an opportunitv of making provision for their old age, and ,;e shuuld not require Dun­·wich-at any rate, we ~;hould not have so many people in Dunwich as there are there to-day, incapable and requiring· to be fed by the St.ate. \Ye should train our young men to hallits of hardihood and paternal interest. But instead of -doing that, the training of the boys a;1d girl;; to-day is of such a character that they caP not for father or mother, sister or brother but ·will allow them to go to Dunwich or any: wht>re ehe rather than provide for them. If, howfo'w·r. we had them out on the land there would always be a place where the old man and woman could live, the old woman looking after t-he fowls, and the old man after the pigs, Ptc I remember the farm in the old countl-y and all its surrounding-l:'l, and how the fact that we had to get up and do our share of thfl work th~?re when we were youugstcrs made us who c•Jme from the old country hardy and self. reliant. Now, I come to the reference to trade unions. \Ye do not want strikes, and we do not want those people who are leading unionists to lead them ast.r:av, as they do some­time~. They should be -..·erY camful that they do not do anything which is calculated to injur"e the wives and children of the workers by in­ducing the men to leave their employment. And while it is a very nice thing to be able to pay high wages and give continuous work, thero has got to be the studying of the com­petition that is taking place bet;ween an indus­try in Queensland and an inclustrv in New South \Vales or Victol'ia; and we hive also to cono:idcr the m·ersca goods that come in from the Yarious nations of tho world working under diffel·cnt conditions. We cannot shut out much of what comes from other lands. They arc necessary to us as a people, and we have to take care that our people get the very best results for the money paid, so that we shall be able to fight those we have to compete with. I have passed o\-et" many matters men­tioned in the Speech, some of a sorrowful, some of a cheerful, and some of a doubtful character. There are a few Bills that I thought would have been put into the Speech. For instance, a section of our people have recently eYinccd a (lesire fOl' the abolition of the Legis-

[ Hon. A. Gibson.

lative Council, and have expressed a wi;:;h that the opinion of the people on the subject should be ascertained by means of a referendum. '!'he Speech should have said, "Proposals will therefore hi.! submitted which, if approved by you, will enable the country to express in that manner its wishes on this important question.''

Hon. A. HINCHCLIF:F"E: .\re you disap­pointed?

HoN. A. GIBSON: I am disappointed. I am surprised when I look across at tho other side and see all the able gentlemen who have been appointed to the House on this occasion. I had thought we would have got our walking tick-et with this referendum to have the con­stitution of the House amended so that we might have an elective Ghamber, according to the ideas of those people. From the amount of fireworks exploded during last session we had a right to expect a Bill of t!1is kind on this occasion. I also thought B1lls ·would have been introduced for the reduction of the emoluments of members of the other House, for a reduction of their number, and for a redistribution of seats. That would have been an indication to the country that the members themselv-es were de'>irous to lessen the unnecessary cost as it has been declared to be, of the work of carrying o_n the legisla­tion of the State. I am not saymg one word against the gentlemen who have been ap­pointed, because I believe they are all good, worthv men who have not been sent here to carrv Out th~ views of any particular Ministry. 'l'heil perhaps a still more important Bill shoul~l have b~en ocz-n on this sheet, I mean a Bill for the better regulation of licensed public-houses. That is a m€asure that is -very much wanted, and for which people are Ct:.Y· ing out. To-day you ea~ hardly get. a conv!~­tion against ~<ly grog-selhng. I. see. that nearly everv dav where I live. Cons1dermg the tre­mendous ~losSBs to the community by the drink­ing of intoxicants, t-he Government surely should have brought in a Bill for the protec­tion of those poor weaklings who cannot keep away from the public·houses.

Hon. P. 1\luRPHY: Bring in a Bill to pro­hibit the manufacture of liquor in the State and its importation from abroad.

HoN. A. GIBSON: I am not a shining light in the temperance cause, but I am in tre­mendow~ sympathy with the men, women, and children I see suffering in our community; and when I hear the Hon. Mr. Davey say that when we g·et our white men on our plant-ations things will be better and brighter in every respect, I ,,,ould remind him of this fact that in my own d\,:trict of Kolan, in the days of the weak kanaka, one constable could control the district and keep it in peace and order, but when we introduced Otlr white brother it took three of them to do so. And it is the same every>vhere else. 1 had occasion last year to spBak of what took place at Gin Gin. Such things 'vere never seen in the days of the kanaka. In the Korth they havE' had to obtain more police protection. It will be remembered that at the l::!rc;.,::Jrpine la'lt year the pres<mt Premier would not carry the whisky and rum alon11,· to that place beeause of the iniquitous conduct that had taken place there.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: He did hi,o best to put it do·wn.

HoN. A. GIBSOX: And now they have got three policemen to protect it. \Vhat is going to happen when the 6,000 kam.kas in the State hase gone, and it is all 'White~ It is a very serious matter, and as legislators we should n,)t be afraid to speak out, and 5ay that t.his business is an abominable one, and that it

Add1ws in Reply. [31 JuLY.] Address in Reply. 79

requires to be che~;ked by legislation~especia!Iy those who profess to be friends of Labour. They should see that Labour is protected against itst>lf in the intere.:;ts of the men, the women, .and the children. \Ye do not want to bring them up as paupers. \Vhen we speak of the conditi(,fl of the worker, it is not that there i» no work, that he does not get money. that then' is no room for him, but that his general surroundinQ:s are such that he cannot leave the place where he i~> besotted hy the inBuenc@ of this liquor. It is dreadful in the sugal' centres t.o :;ee m~n spend their earnin!!'s in drink, and sending nothing to their children, a;; so many of them do.

Hon. P. :iHURl'HY: There is nothing dread­fui happening on the Darling Downs, and they are all white men labouring there.

Hox. A. GIBSON: The lwn. gentleman must remember that on the Darling Down:o, there are only two or three men employed hf'l'e and there ou a farm. In the sugar dis­tricts they are in score3 and flundreds. And the men dare not refuse to drmk.

Hon. P. :\[t;RPHY: What about my solution of the sugar difficulty-cutting up the big sugar esiate.o, into small sugar farms'r

HoN. A. GIBf:!,ON: The hon. gentleman is mistaken. The sugar estates are being cut up, and men are settling down upon them by the thousand. To return to what I was just· now n~forring to: ~Ha central mill there r.re prob­ably seventy or eighty men, and the man would be a very bold man who would dare to reful:'e to go with the others; and you mav have read in the papers recently an account of what happens at Cordalba and Childers on a Satur~ day night. These are facts that are worthy of our comideration. I have hitherto hesi­tated to express these opinions in this Council, but I find it has become necessary, in the best interests of the Sta~e, whether by stoi?ping the distillation or the importation of spints, or by what other means soever, something has got to be done so that, if possible, ·we may be able to saYe our people from the terrible conse­quences of intoxicating liquors. (Hear, hear!)

Hox. A. HINCHCLIFFE ~ I desire to offer a few words on this motion. I am glad to know that the hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat is showing some signs of re· pentance, and that after mature deliberation he is open to some reason. V\7ith regard to the Dill which he r.efers to M the Land Monopoly Tax Bill he anticipates that in all probabtlity he will be able to give it much fairer consider­ation than he did on the last occasion it was before the House.

Hon. A. GrBSON: I do not know what the Bill is. 'fhe Government say they are going to gi-.;e it fairer consideration, and I hope to be able to help them.

Hox. A. I-II:~rCHCLIFFE: I am glad to heat the hon. gentleman say that, especially a:1 he rejoices in the fact that the Bill of last Sf>~sion was defeated by this House. Coming now to the Speech itself, it must he very grati­fving to us all to know that the finance;; of the State are as;;uming a much more hoaithy condition, and t!mt the outlook ){eneral!y is Vt;>ry t'rlCouraging indeerl, notwith~ttwding the continued efforts ou the part of some people ny,~r»E'as to decry the Australian Common­~'t>atth, and eopecia!ly Queensland. Those per;:.ons are not relaxing their eft orb to da:nag~ u;; in the eye~ of t.be old country. In spite or thi:>, it is satisfactory to know t·hat the finances of thE' State are looking up, as they undoubtedly am. \Yith respect to the sessional pr·:::>grr.mme

as disclosed in the Governor's f\poech. it is of an equally encouraging uatute-that is, if we am to judge by the labels which haYe bE>en placed upon the various mea~ures to be intra· duced. Of course, it is impossible to judge as to the contents of the various Bills until we have them before us, and it i.s. therefore, unfair to enter upon any serious criticism of them. Howeve.r, 1 should like to make a remark with respect to one or two of them, I am glad to find that the Government p;•opose to rui8e the amount of exemption under the Income 'I'ax .Aet, and bring it more in keeping· with other places where similar legi~lation i:; in operation. I do not knov.-' whv.t ihe prvposl!d exemption is to be. I trust it will be certainly not less than £150, and I hope also that it will apply not only to those who receive £150, but that it w;Jl apply equally all round alilw; that is to say, that irre~pective of the amount d salary or income a man is rE-ceiving the amount of exomption will De the same. (Hear, hear!) That &eems to me tlw only equitabh~ system of ar1 income tax. That is the system which ob­tains in thf' old country. In Nt~w South \Vales and in South Australia, llO matter whnt amount of income a man is re-ceiving. there is an exemption up to £200. I am glad to know that the Government are at last likely to make an effort to put the income tax upon a basis which is fair and equitable to all alike. The Hon. Mr. Gihson made some reference to the item on the programme entitl('d the Trades Union Bill. I think he is labouring- und<:lr some miscon­ception re,;;pectiilg the objects of that proposed legislation. I g-ather from his remarks that he anticipates t.hat it proposes to deal with the mati.t>r of wn.ges and industrial disputes. Unless I am much mistakeu, that is not the intention of the Bill by any means. The proposition which the Government hav-e in their minds, I believe, i;; legislation based on similar lines t) the lcg·islation which is now going throug-h the Briti:<h ParliamNlt; that i:>. to restore to the trade unions that charter o£ freedom which was conferred upon them in Great Britain by the Act of 1871, and in Quecmland by our own Act of 1886, and which rElcent decisions b the law courts~in the old country arising o•,;:t of the Taff Vale ca5e, and in Queensland out of a recent wefl-known case-have done a sood deal to destroy. Thc1se deci5icms ha-.;e shown that at th2 present time there i.s a serious defect in the law as applied to trade union-3, whereby their funds are at• the meroy o~ unscru~ pulous perwns who see£:; to deal unju,.;dy with them. The object of this intended: legislation is to secure to unions that immunity which they thought they possessed under the Act of 1886

in this State, and under the Act of [4.30 p.m.] 1871 in the old country, and I hope

that when that legislation comes before us it will come up tO expectations. There is a fear in certain quarters that this is an attempt to place trades unions above the law-to give them certain privileges which no other people possess-and that idea is creating some alarm. But there is no desire to give trade unionists any special privileges. We should recollect that now-a-days there are not only trade unions to look after the interests of the workers, but there are also t.rade unions registered under the provisions of the Trades Union Act t.o look after the interests of the employers, and such legislation as is fore­shadowed in this Speech will, I take it, apply as much to the latter as to employees' unions in this State. I quite agree with the Hon. Mr. Gibson with regard to the evil effect-s resulting from the intemperate habits of the

Hon. A. Hinchcliff e.]

80 Add1·e8s in Repl;IJ. [COUNCIL.] Address in Reply.

people, and I am prepared to go as far as any hon. gentleman in th1s House in order to miti­gate the eYil ·effects of the liquor traffic. But I refuse to believe with the hon. gentleman that, gin'Il fair conditions decent wages, and huwano treatment, the white man is, as the hon. gentleman represents, worse than the k:.naka. I absolutely refu.~e to believe that. \Ye know that in the pastoral clistrids of Queens­land there are large numbers of workmen em­ployed in bodies similar to those employed on sugar plantations, and there is not among them that E.'Yil which the hon. gentleman describes as existing in his own locality. We kno;v that the crimes which have been com­mitted by my hon. friend's black brothers in the past have beDn a disgrace to this com­munity, and I am astonished to find that t.he hon gentleman would prefer to take to his bosom tho kanaka rather than his white brother. I see absolutely no reason, no justi­fi~ation what~Ter, taking wodting men gener­ally as workmg men, to suspect that, under fair treatment, they would be guilty of the imliscrctions whit'h the hon. gentleman de­sf'ribed. Among many other matft·rs referred to in the Governor's Speech th•~rP j, the subject of technical instruction. I notice that it is proposed to introduce a Bill for the establish­ment of a central technical and training college. I need hardly say that I am delighted to find that at last the Government propose to carry out their intention to put our technical colle,ges-at anv rate those within the metro­polis-on a mUch more satisfactory and a sounder basis. \Vhen this subject was before the House last session, I stated that I believed that the 11inister or Government who would place technical education on a good sound ba_sis _would ear_n the gratitude of every right· thmkmg man. m the community, and of all iuture J;E'nemtwns. I know of no better means of helpmg to develop the resources of Queens­land than per medium of our technical col­le~;es and such like institutious. The improve­ment of our technical instruction must un­doubtc:dly h'!'vo a ':ery beneficial effect upon our pnma.ry mdustncs. \Ye know that through ~he app_licati?n o~ sciE"nce to agriculture, the mstructwn gtven m our Wchnical colleges here and in other parts of the world has been an ~nfluential fa<:tor in the rle,,elopment of that md_u.~try .. I smcerely hope that the legislation whwh It IS proposed to introduce will be of a -comprehensive nature, and that it will tend to make our Cl)lieges worthv of their name. As a mf'mher of the ec>mmihef' of thP Bri~bane Technical College I am particularly anxious about this matter.' I am n:ry glad to be able to info~m the Hous? that at the present time the Bnsbane Techmcal College which has as hon. ge~tlemen are aware, Passed thro~gh YE'ry senous financial difficulties and consider­able trouble, is now in a fair way to attain a much l"f.IOre satisfactory position; and I hope and behove that by the time the Government are in a position to take it over it will be found to be in a satisfactory financial condi­tion. There are seYeral other matters mentioned in the Gowrnor's Speech with which I am pa1:ticularly pleased, but, as I said at. the out·wt, I do not· think it, is fair that one should enter into a . discussion of them now, b0cause we cannot Judge of the contents of Bills until we have them b<:>fore us, and we :;hall then have ample opportunity of dealing with the details. T'hm·e is only one other mrrtter to ·which I Rhould like to refer before I sit~ do·wn. Hon. gentlemt•n will recollect that la>'t week I tabled a motion in this House a~king for the pt•oduction of certain papers and

[Hon. A. Hinchcliffe.

documents relating to a charge of improper conduct preferred against one of our State school tBachers. It ·will also be remembered that the representative of the Government in this Chamber declined to support the motion f,-.r reasons which he stated, but said that he would make the papers accessible to any mem~ ber of this Chamber who cared to peruse them. I regarded the mattE'r not as a local one by any means, but as one of geaeral public importance, holding-, as I do, that the proper conduct of our public schools should be jealously guarded, that. their moral standard should be kept up f,) the highest possible point, and that any attempt to diminish that moral standard should be met with p,evere rebuke. Taking that view of the que.stion, and approaching it as im­partially as I pof;sibly could, I accepted the offer of the l\Iinister to peruse the papers, and I have carefully perused them, not once, but twice; and I do not hesitate to say that in this rnetter t.he proper course has not been taken by the Gow'rnment. I have no desire to de.al with this subject at unnecessary length, or to go into all the details, hnt I take t.hi, stand: that the officer who was charged with improper conduct; was either guilty 01' innocent-that there was no half-way house in an important matter of this kind, and that if he was innocent hfl bad no right to remain under a cloud of ~<uspicion any longer than wa;; absolutely l'e<..r;.<:sary, not only in his own interest but also in the intere.~ts of the children of the 'd10ol to which he has been transferred. If he was guilty, then I say he has no right whatever to remain any longer in the serYic~ of the depart­went. I find that the charge pr-ilfern'd against him was that of improper conduct towards one of his female scholar;;, that a preliminary ex­amination wa,;; held into the char~e hv depart­mental officers, and that the eYidenCe of the complainant was taken, al0ng with the evi~ dence of two other witnesses.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : That evidence w(U'. excluded by the rules of evidence from the trial.

HoN. A. HI~CHCLIFI?E: I was going to 1·efer to that. By that evirl.ence what I believe is legally termed a primd facie case was made out, and it wa!! considered that an inquiry should be held into the matter, .An inquiry was held, and it was pre!!ided over by Mr. 1iorris, police magistrate. The Education Department was represented by Mr. Morris, solicitor, and the State school teacher by Mr O'Shea, solicitor. In going throngh the evidence I found that the statement mu dEl by the girl at that inquiry was substantially the same as she gave at the preliminary examination before departmental officer!':, and that notwithstanding- that every possible effort was made by Mr. 0';:-)hea to shake her evidence he did not succeed in doing so in any particular. The charge was, of course, denied by the accused. The evidence of two witnesf'es who gave a statement 11t the pre­liminary examination was not admitted, on the ground that to a-dmit it would be contrary to the law of evidence. So far as that evidence affects the whole position, I think it was very unfortunate that it was not admitted. How­ever, it was excluded. After the evidence was taken, testimony was given by certain witnesses as to the general character, conduct, and ability of --, This evidence was given by Mr. Thallon, Commissioner for Railways~ and Mr. John Leahy. The evidence was then submitted to the Public Service Board, and the finding of that board was as follows :-''You are found guilty of reprehensible conduct." Tbe charge against him, I would remind hon. gentlemen,

Address in Reply. [31 JULY.] Address in :Reply. 81

was one of improper conduct, and he was found guilty of "reprehens;ble conduct." It is a serious thing that a man who has been found guilty on such a charge should still retain a p0~iti.o1" in th~ E'.hl<:>o_thn Dep::!.!'tment.

The SECRETARY :b'OR PUBLIC lNS'fRCCTlON: The statutory charge was "conduct Tendering him unfit to rElmain in the public service." He was found guil~y, as it were, on the second count­just like murder and mansiaughter.

HoN. A. HINCHCLIF'FE: It is very unfor­tunate that we have not got the documents here. Of course, I quite understand the delicacy of the matter, and the reasons which animated the hon. gentleman in not producing the documents, but the charge as I read it-and I read it thhl nwrn­ing-was one of improper conduct towards a female scholar in the Clayfield school, and on that charge the Public Service Board found the late teacher of the Clayfield school guilty of "reprehensible conduct," My point is this: Is it a fair thing, is it right in the interest of the Education Department, that a public: officer who has been found guilty of rAprehensible conduct under those cir­cumstances should be permitted to tPach iu one of our public schools? In my opinion it is altogether wrnng. 1 have no personal feeling in the matter. I simply believe, whether rightly or wrongly, that I am doing a public duty and act­ing in the hest interests of our education institu­tion in bringing this matter under the notice of this House. I was animate-d by the same desire when I gave notice of thP motion for the produc­tion of the papers. I had no idea then that the case was as bad as it now appear;; to be. I have nothing further to say on the matter, but I eer. tainly trust that some action will be taken in order that our scholars and the parents of children may be free from any £ear of anything of this kind happening again.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION (Hon. A, H. Barlow): I had intended to wind up this debate, but I fear must trespa.<;s on your patience now, although I should have preferred to have spoken later in the debate. The Hon. Mr. Hinchdiffe has raised, and I have no doubt from his point of view very properly raised, this disagreeable subject. I have to remind the Council that public servants are under the Act of 1Hl6, and that they have a statutory right to be tried in ex3-ctly the same way a!< they would l1e tried for any offence com­mitted against the common law. By the 40th section of that Act it is provided that~

An officer shall not be dismi~sed or suffer any detri­ment· in l'Pspect of his office except in the manner set forth in tbis Act. And section 41 says~

H au officer is charged with conduct showing bis untilness to continue in the service, Ol' with iucom· petencyor neglect of duty, or with a breach of this Act or of the rqulations, the :\Iinister Ol' permanent head M lJis dBp:trtment may suspend him, pBndinganinqniry by t!:!e board.

As it is impossible for the board-which consists of Ministers-to try every case that comes before them, power is: given by the Act to delegate the taking of evidence to another person. That person is a mere machine for taking evidence; be expresses no opinion, he is not entitled to make any report. After the evidence is taken it is read over by Ministers-who represent the Governor in Cnuncil-and they come to a deci· aion. Now, I have no hesitation in say­ing that, while I think the conduct of the gentleman referred to by Mr. Hinchcliffe was very reprehensible, I do not think there wns absolute proof of the graver charges that were involved in the indictment. Hon. memb&rs know very well, as men of the world, that in cases of this kind absolute proof,

1906-G

as far as possible, must be required. It is a very delicate subject to go into, but I may say that in this case~and the Hon. Mr. Hinchcliffe will bear me out- there was no trace of what may be c::;!!ed :-:. c~i:mir.d ::;se::; '.!It. Ir. ::; c::;ec of :::rir::_lir.d assault medic:t! evidence is a strong corrobora­tion, • In this case there was no need of corroborative evidence of that kind. I believe the complainant told the truth in the interview she had with the inspector, and in the interview she bad with me, but I do not think that in the legal procedure which took place afterward!:! there was sufficient; corroboration, in a ca~e :A criminal law, to have sent a man to prison, or, in the case of a public service inquiry, to have dismissed a man from the ERrvice. But the Government did find-and in that finding I entirely concur-that there was grave im­propriety, tha~ there was reprehen»ible con· duct, that there was an indication of a state of mind which rendered it exceedingly undesirable that the party concerned should remain in a mixed school-a school where boys and girls are together. And generally the Government thought that the case must be marked by some lilevere punishme11t; and that pu11ishment was inflicted in the shape of a loss of £40 a year salary, of remuval from all the a01sociations and pleasures of the metropolitan city, and what you may call exile, to the charge of a boys' school at Mount Morgan. If I had been sitting on a jury under oath-and I considered myself that sitting on the public ~ervice inquiry as a judge on my honour was quite as binding as an oath-1 could have given no other deliver· ance than that which I did give, so far as my one vote wa;; concerned. But there has been a suspicion of undue influence. It h?..s been talked about that there was undue influence exercised on behalf of this unfortunate man. I can assure the C6uncil and the public that no influence was used whatever-not the slightest­either tu increase the punishment or to mitigate it. Much as I regret that this matter h::.s been brought up, I do not blame the Hon. Mr. Hinch­cliffe for what he ha.s done. At the same time I believe a righteous judgment was arrived at, and I think I need say no Inore. Proceeding to the Addrer;s in Reply, I will take first the remark ot the Hon. :\fr. Gibson--to whom I have always listened with !great plea;;mre-wit.h regard to my exprer;sion about the "critical>) p11,rty. \Vheu the Hon. Mr. Gray assumed charge of affairs opposite I cast about in my mind what I should say. I did not like to use the W•)rd "Oppm<i­tion," Cecause last year that word was not very much favoured, so I thought that, as a matter of courtesy, I would use that term. I can assure h(ln. gentlemen that it wa;; not used by way of sarcasm, but only as implying that their function was that of c1·iticism.

Hon. G. W, GRAY: I think too much is being made of it.

The SECRETARY JTOR PUBLIC IN· STRGCTION: The Hon. Mr. Gibson said that money was accumulating in the banks and that there was no outlet for it. I dare say that is very true. But he must recollect that a great deal of the wodt of this State has been done. There is no more building going on, a great deal of the land within easy access of railways has been taken up, and peotJle had a lesson in the troubles of 1803, wbieh, perhaps, left an impres­sion on their minds. As to all this wild talk about capital going away, and that sor~ of thing, I believe it is the most absolute nonsense, and in no place under British authority is there the slightE<st fear of the repudiation of obligations or any of the other flvils we sometimes hear are coming upon us. The great apostle who visited us the other day1 who srJoke about socialism and free trade and the ruination of onr industries-

Hon. A. H. Barlow.]

82 .ddd1·ess in Reply. [COTJNCIL.] Address in Reply.

and I may say I did not go to hear him because I am sure he would not convert me, and I am equally certain I should not convert him-said deliberately that he would rather see the north of this State a wilderness than see it occupied by black labour. There is no getting away from that fact. He sa.id ih more thanoncP, so that we are not the only people who are opposed to the kana.ka. The hon. member referred to idle hands. The remedy for idle hands is protection to native in­dustry, and the necessary concomitant to the protection of native indu;;try is such laws as will secure to the worker his fair share of the protec· tion that is given to the manufacturer. \Vhat happens when a manufacturer is pre~sed by the competition of rivals? The first thing that gives way under competition is not the interest on capital, not the wagP.s of superintendence, but the wages of the men. And therefore it is neces.~ary that any system of protection should be combined with a system of protection to the workman so that he may get his natural ,;hare of the fruits of his labour. I do not go to the absurd lengths once gone to by a very distinguished man in this State, who said he should have the whole fruits of his labour. I do not approach the subject on any such absurd lines, but I do say that some prOtection to the worker is nece:>sary in order that some of the additional profits which protec­tion brings about may be shared by the man who does the manual labour. "\Ve are told that the kanaka-gentle cr£:latme! -is everything that can be desired. He is fenced about by legislative restrictions; he is not allowed to be !lupplied with grog; yet I am told that the drunkenness and the debaucherie.."' of the walk-about kanaka in the town of Bundaborg are a scandal to ci vilisa­tion.

Hon. A. GmsoN: That is not true. Tho SlWRETARY FOR PUBLlO IN­

STRUCTION : Whose fault ia it that the kanaka is here? Is it not the fault of those persons who exploited the islands for the purpose of gettlng cheap, and what they call reliable, labour? 't'hey exploited those islands until the male population in some of them was so reduced that they had to leave the more peaceful islands and go to Malayta and elsewhere, by the natives of which island almost all the murderous out~ rages in this S~ate have been committed. There is the fact~- one of the results of attempting to cultivate sugar by means of savage labour. One of the g-reat&st pleasures in my political life is that I was one of the thirteen who, in 1890, I thinlt, voted against tbe~;econd reading of the Bill, which constituted the great apostacy by which the extinction of coloured labour was attempted to be postponed. ]for the second reading of that Bill the "Ayes" were 39, and the "Noes" 13; and I am proud that I was one of the thirteen who voted against that great apostacy. Now the trouble hat> oome about; the :Federal GovernN ment, rightly or wrongly-I believe rightly-has decreed the deportation of the kanakas ; and the question is, what is to be done with them in the interval? If we have a large population of walk~

about kanakas the earth will be full [5 p.m.] of violence. They are not a gentle

race; in spite of all that has been done for them by the hon. gentlf~man and his friends they are savages by race and savages by nature. Having disposed of that subject, 1 will now address a few words to the HouRe on the question raised by the Hon. Mr. Gray. 'rhere is a grettt cry for the reduction of members of the Legislative Assembly. "When the Coalition Government, or whatever it may be termed, was formed by the Hon. Mr. Mor­gan, he addressed a meeting at \Varwick at which he defined his policy. He did not say he was in favour of an indiscriminate reduction of the number of members of the Assembly. He

[Hon. A. H. Barlow.

spoke to the effect that be thought a redistribu~ tion of seats might be brought about, and that in the conrse of that redistribution some reduction of the n•1mber of members of the Assembly might be made. VVithout wishing to create any ill-feeling, there is a party in this State who are comtantly running down the institution of Par­liament, and turning it into ridicule, and teaching the young men of the State to despise and laugh at institutions which are the very safeN guard of their liberty. If they had lived, as many years ago, I did, in tiydney they would know that there was then no chance for the native lad. Everything was regulated from Downing street. If there was a good billet a man was sent from England to occupy it, and the native youth had no chance at all, They know nothing of the struggles and troubles that attended our efforts to get responsible government, and a certain number of persons in this commumtv play upon their feelings, teach them to decry Parliament, and the result is this movement for the reduction of members of the Legislative Assembly. One of the first effects of this would be to throw the bulk of politic~! power into the hands of Bris­bane. The city nf London, if it had its proper number of membets on the one vote one value principle, would have about 150 members. The actual number of members in what is c!llled the county of London issometwenty-eight. There are a number of persons in this State who have con­sistently opposed every liberal measure, such as one man one vote and female suffrage, and when it suits them they clamour for one vote one value. Does anyone remember when the Legislative Assembly consisted of twenty-eight members? I make no imputation of bribery. I do not think the unblushing methods of VV 11lpole and Lord North had ever any existence here. But there is much more scope for influence in a small House than in a large one when the fate of a Government depends on one or two votes. Does anyone remember the Ipswich bunch in those days ? It consisted of six members representing Ipswich and \V est Moreton. "\Vhile that bunch existed it ruled the whole State. Something of that kind will always be the case where there is a small House. Surely, if seventy-two members were not too many when we had a population of 300,000 it cannot he too many when we have a population of 550,000. It is said that federation has taken away a grea~ deal of work. I !'lay it has taken away a great deal of money, but there is just ao; much work in the Government departments and for Parliament as ever. I was a Ministsr for six and a-half years before fed era~ tion, and for nearly three years after federation, and I unhesitatingly say that there is as much legislative and administrative and office work to-day as there was before federation, and even more. Then nasty insinuations have been thrown out at Ministers because they receive their salaries. After all, what does a Minister­get after he has paid the necessary expenses of his position? Not a<;; much as a shopwalker of a shop in Melbourne, who does nothing but walk about in a beautiful frock coat and tuck in the drei!ses of the ladies in their carriages as they drive away from the establis-hment. As for myself, before I entered Parliament I had sufficient capital to keep me for the rest of my life, and I believe that with a good partner I could make five times as much as I make out of politics. By reducing the number of members of the As\lt>,mbly, perhaps £6,000 a year mi~ht be saved. VVould that reduce taxation ? "\Vfth regard to the number of members of this House, why should there be any correlation between the members of the two houses? Some people say there ought to be half as many members in the Council as there are in the

Address in Reply. [31 Jun.] Address in Reply. 83

Assembly. Are we twice as wise, ortwiceasregular in our attendance, or twice as expensive as mem­bers of the other place? I think we are qnite a>: good in some respects; I think our debates are more compact than the debates in another place, and in saying that I make no disrespectful allusion to the other Chamber. I cannot see any reason why the members of the Council should be only one-half as many as the members of the Al:ldembly. \Ve cost the country nothing. We certainly have a railway pass each; but I can say that my railway pass is no~ worth £10 a year to me, The Constitution Act has put no limit to the number of members in the Council, and I see no reason why able men should not be added to the members of the Council, even if we had as many member:~ as the Assembly. The same party that is always opposing popular movements-always trying to limit the suffrage­and so on, got a certain m~morandum submitted to the Governor, and I believe the Governor sent it to the home authorities, sugge-sting a limit in the number of member<~ of this House. That memorandum was not worth the paper it was written on, aA the Constitution Act of 1867 fixes no limit to the number of members of the Council. When in I{ ew Zealand the then Governor was requested by Mr. Seddon to appoint twelve members to the Legblative Council of that colony, he demurred, and tele­g_raphed to his principals in London for advice. They told him to take the advice of his respon­sible adviser:-1, or send King Dick about his busi­nestl. The Governor was not prepared to do that, and he appointed twelve members at once to the Legislat1ve Council of New Zealand for the purpose of giving the Seddon Government a show in the Council, which had accumulated a large number of members in favour of the Opposition party.

Hun, G. W. GRAY : Might I ask when that letter was sent to the Governor?

The SECRETARY FUR PUBLIC IN¥ STRUCTION: I was not a member of the Government at the time.

Hon. G. \V. GRAY: I thought; your remarks applied to recent events.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: No, it is a very old event; but the party I refer to is always harping on this imaginary limit in the number of members of the Council What happened in tbe reign of William III. ? Tbe House of Lords passed a Bill to limit the power of the King to create new peers. The King was only to create one peer for every three vacn.ncies, I think, until the House came down to a certain number,and then the num­ber of peers was to remain at that figure, but he might fill up a vacancy; he could do no more. The House of Commons promptly and properly cast out that Bill, as they saw that if they passed it they would be <~imply creating a selfish oligarchy, which could do just as it liked. And that is the trouble of an elective Council. People say that members of the Council should be chosen by the people; but they overlook the fact that in such a case there would be no elasticity, no power of movement. A$ to the New Zealand plan of creating a member of the Council for six years, which they tried for some time-I do not know whether it is in force now or not-I do not think anything could be more calculated to undermine a man's independence than to place him in such a position that he would always be speculating as to who would be in power. I think I should have a very poor chance of reappointment if my political oppo~ nents came into power. I have dealt with these matters at perhaps too great length, and I shall simply add that there are only two courses open -either to keep the Legislative Council as it is, or abolish it altogether in favour of dome committee,

of revision, which, before measures are finally pa.ssed by the other House, shall go through them and recommend alterations. If there is to be a Legislative Council the safety lies in having it a nominated body with members appointed for life, and so elastic that in cases of constitutional trouble the number of members may be increased. I shall conclude what I have to say by dealing with a few of thA financial statements made by my hon. friend, Mr. Gray. A statement has been made eh;ewhere, and in various newspapers, as to the revenue and ex­penditure for three years during which the late Government were in office-namely, 1901, 1902, and 1903, and three years under the administra~ tion of the pre!:lent Government--namelv, 1904, 1&05, and 1906. All the argument in th"e world cannot get away from the fact that after the three years mentioned under the late Govern­ment there was a deficit of £1,151,470, and that after a corresponding period under the pref>ent administration there is a surplus of £129,382. I make no admissions; I make no conces.o;ions. I quite agree that there are special items in certain cases. There are the South African contingents for one thing, but if the Government had the kudos for sending contingents to South Afric:a, they should have raised the money for them. The complaint against the Government is, not that this deficit existed, but the fact that it was their duty or their privilege either to have economised or to have imposed taxation. But I will abandon that, and take another ground, the ground that there was no federation to compli~ cate matters. I will take the years 1902 and 1903, and compare with them the years 1904 and 1905, The result of this comparison, without burdening you with details, shows that for the two years 1902 and 1903 there was a deficit of £623,280. :F'or the years 1904 and 1905 there was a surplus of .£1,571. If another comparison is wanted I will take the results for 1902 and 1903, and compare them with the results for the vears 1905 and 1906. As I have already Shown, for the years 1902 and HJ03 there was a deficib of £623,280, whereas for the years 1905 and 1906 there was a surplus of .£141,806. Comparing the revenue for those two periods we find that in 1905-6 the present Government had .£387,395 more revenue than the late Government had in 1902-3, but our decrease in expenditure during that period w~s £377,691, which makes a general difference of £765,086, which is equal to the deficiency of the late Government and our aggregate surplus of £141,806. I am not g-oing to say that the late Government had not great difficulties to contend with. We had great difficulties to contend with. We had the great difficulty of retrenchment to contend with, and every time we attempted to retrench we were told that it was miserable parsimony. All sorts of lies and fabrications have been circulated about the manner in which we retrenched, but retrenchment was inevitable; it had to be done. Now, I want to show that in this comJ?arison of the years 1902-3 with 1()05-6 the questiOn of federation anrl the matter of the South African contingents, except in the shape of some little refunds, do not come in at all. In 1905-\\ ::ts compared with 1902-3, we bad an in­crease in taxation ltnd receipts from the Com­monwealth of .£56,000; in land revenue, an in­crease of £41,000; in railway revenue, an increase of .£381,000; in other services, an increase of .£32,000; while, in mi:;cellaneous sel'vices, there was a decrease of £123,000; which gave m the smplus I have quoted-namely, £387,395. ·with regard to expenditure, in the schedules we had a decrease of £23,000; in interest, we had an in­crease of £105,000-I think that fact has never been brought out in any of the debates on the subject; in the Executive and Legislative we

Hon . .tl. H. Barlow.]

84 .Address in Reply. (COUNCIL.] Address in Reply.

had a decrease of £3,000; in the Chief Secre­tary's Department, strange to say, the amounts exactly balanced ; in the Home Secretary's Department wP- had :J. decrease of £115,000; the "\Vorks Departmf-lnt spent £2,000 more; in the Department of Jnstice there was a de­cre:tse of £15,000 ; in the Treasury, a decreMe of £121,000; in the Lands Department, a decrease of £9,000; in the Department of Agricnlture, a decrease of £21,000; in the Education Dept~..rt­ment an increase of .£13,000, which was caused by the increase in the number of <'Chools and the allowances made to teachers who had been kept out of their statutory increments; in t.he Mines Department there was a decrease of £12,000; and in the railways there was a decrease of £178,000; making a total reduction of £377,681 in our expenditure during that period aB com­pared with the expenditure of the late Go­vernment during the years 1902-3. The hon. gentleman referred to the railway revenue. Well, taking the years 1901, 1902, 1903 against the years Hl04, 1905, and 1906, I find that in the latter period the railway revenue increased by £431,000, but the expenditure decreased by .£424,000; therefore we had a net benefit of about £855,000. But -surely we are entitled to credit for having reduced the expenditure. Although we had ~431,000 more revenue, although we bad more lines of railway open, some 1;1ight incr('ase of mileage, yet the wmk was done for £424,000 less that it was done for in the three previous years under tbe late Government. Surely we are entitled to credit for that.

Hon. G. VV. GRAY: That year you adopted the Estimates of the late Government.

The SECRETARY FOR PlJBI,JC IN­STRUCTION : One year we did, because we had no time to frame anv Estimate«.

Hon. G. \V. GRAY: '.rhe fir;;tyf'aryouadopted the late Government's Estimates, and kept them to the letter.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­Sl'RUCTIO:N: Undoubtedly; we could do nothing else.

Hon. G. W. GRAY: You cannot take credit for that-you got the benefit of our reductions, and the benefit of a large increas~ in revenue.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I~­STRUOTION: We did not on the strength of an increase in revenue launch out into increased expenrliture, and the result wa.o; a net balance of .£855,000 on the total. I have given a com­parison of two years in which the finances were not complicated by federation. Now, I will make another comparison. In the years 1904-5-U we had an increase in the burden of mterest to the extent ot .£238,000; we had a decrease of expenditure in the schedules of .£55,000; we bad a decrease of £6,000 in the Executive and Legis­lative. I shall not quote the decrease in the Chief Secretary's Department, because that is connected with the South African contingents, and it is not fair to quote it. In the Home Secretary's Department we had a decrease of .£165,000; in the \Vorks Department a decrease of £79,000; in the Department of Justice a decrease of £34,000; in the Treasury a de­crea5e of £285,000; in the Lands Depart­ment a decrease of £40,000; in the Depart· meut of Agriculture a decrease of .£44,000; in the Edumt.tion Department, an increase of £l!l,OOO; in the Mines Department, a decrease of £24,000 ; and in Railways a decrease of .£,124, 000, Then comes in federation items of expenditure, the amount spent on post and tele· graph offices for the broken half-year being .£247,000. There Is a net decrease in the whole expenditure of £1,3H4,000. Allowing for the expenditure of that £247,000 of post and tele· graph offices, we economised to the extent of about .£1,000,000 in our expenditure during those three

[Hon. A. H. Bar low.

years; or, taking off the amount spent on the South Africrm contingents, we economised to the extent of .£750,000. Then, as to revenue during the Rame period, we had an increase of .£28,000 in the amount received from the Common~ wealth, a decxease of £387,000 in the revenue from taxation, an increase of .£93,000 from Lands, an increase of £431,000 from Rail­ways; and we lost £171,000 in revenue from Other Services, and .£108,000 in revenue from Miscellaneous Services. I am not going to trouble the House with many more figurel:l, nor am I going to press harshly or improperly the arguments of the bon. gentleman opposite. The whole thing sums itself up into this: that we accomplised this reBnlt in spite of the increase in the interest on our public debt, and that in spite of an increase of revenue in some things, we exercised needful and proper economy and brought about a good result. I do not su!Jpose the<>e figures will convince anybody who does not desire to be convinced, but such as they are I give them as Borne answer, however imperfect, to the criticism of the hon. gentle· man .

Hon. G. \V. GRAY: You admit the main statement, that you had an increase of £800,000 in railway revenue alone?

'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN· STRUOTION: I admit. that in those three ye~~rs we had an increase of £431,000 in railway revenue, but that by the exercise of economy, which is never a popular thing to do, to the extent of .£424,000, we increased the net income by £855,000. That is an unassailable fact. In order that we may have a correct datum for future comparisono<, I have got an audited s!;atement of what the revenue really was for the broken year when feder~Atiun took place. Federation took place on the 1st of .January, lDOl, the fir.;t day of the century, and I propose to place on record in Ha~tsard what was the actual revenue for the year lH00-1 that is, for the financial year ending on 30th ,June, 1!101-taking out of it the revenue and expenditure in connection with the post and telPgraph offices, the military, the contingents, and all the rest of it, and showing the revenue a._'> it would have been if federation had always been in existence.

Hon. G. \V. GRAY: That explanation has already been made in Jlansa1·d, and you have admitted the accuracy of the figures .

The RECRETAhY FOR PUBLIC IN. STRUCTION: I have not admitted the accu· racy of the figures I am going to quote now, because they were only audited a few days ago, whf'n the account.;; were closed. \Vhat I want

to quote now will serve as a sort of [5.30 p.m.] survey peg for future reference to

show what the audited amount of the true revenut' of Queensland was if federa­tion bad existed for that broken period. It was £3,742,73311s. 2d. That is the sort of datum peg from which we can go in future calculations on reference to Hansaril .

Hon. 'N. V. BROWN: That is what it would have been.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN. STRUCTION: Yes, if federation had been in existence. In the one half-year we were doing thetransferredservices, and in the other half-year they were d0ing them. These figures are free from the complication of the first. half-year, I think I have taken up enongh time. I will not go into the measures that are fore­shadowed in the Speech, and I will leave the debate for someone else .

HoN. W. F. TAYLOR: I move the adjourn­ment of the debate.

guestion put and passed. 1he SEcm;TARY FOR PUBLIC IN­

STRUCTION; In moving that the resumption

Question. [31 JULY.]

of the debate stand an Order Gf the Day for to· morrow, I may say that I propose, with the concurrence of the House, to suggest that we should adjourn over the exhibitirm week. I do not think there will be much business to come before us till then, and I propose at the proper time to move that the House, at its rising, do adjourn until Tuesday, the 14th of August.

Question put and passed,

JOINT COMMITTEES. :.YIEssAGE :r&Olf AssEMnr;r.

The PRESIDENT announced the receipt of a message from the Legislative Assembly, in­timating that in response to the Council's message of the 25th in~;tant they had appointed the Speaker, Mr. Kenna, and :.\Ir. P. J. Leahy members of the ,Joint Library Committee; the Speaker, Hon. E. B. Forrest, and Mr. Dibley members of the .Joint Refreshment-rooms Com­mittee; and the Speaker, :Mr. Petrie, and Mr. 'Voods members of the Joint Parliamentary Buildings Committee.

The Council adjourned at twenty-five minutes to 6 o'clock.

Personal Explanation. 85