legislative assembly thursday september · a new pastora,l development lease ha,s been gunted for a...

Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1936

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Questions. 329

THURSDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER, 1936.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. Pollock, Gregory) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

QUESTIONS. COST OF GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING.

Mr. BRAND (Isis) asked the Premier-" What was the total cost of advertis

ing (all departments) in 1931-1932, 1934-1935, and 1935-1936 ?"

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Jfaclcay) replied -

"The information is being obtained."

FoRT Co:><STANTil\E PAsToRAL HoLDING. Mr. BRAND (Isis) asked the Secretary

for Public Lands-" 1. What is the area of Fort Con

stantine Holding (Cloncurry district)? " 2. What was the elate of expiry of

lease of this holding prior to any extension thereof ?

"3. What exten.,;ion of lcaw \if any) has been granted, and from what date 'i

:' 4. Ha,s any change of ownership of this lease taken place? If so, when'! Who. were the principals in the tmnsfer;

" 5. Has the department received an:-· reports as to the suitability of this holding and surrounding country for sheep?''

'l'he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, H erbert) replied

" 1. 662 square miles. " 2. 30th June, 1944. " 3. A new pastora,l development lease

ha,s been gunted for a term of thirty years, commencing on 1st October, 1936. The new lease is subject to the following special conditions :-

(a) One-third of the holding to be resumable on 30th June, 1944 (the elate of the expiration of the original lea.se), for settlement purposes;

(b) Within the first eight years the sum of £10,000 at the rate of £1,250 per annum is to be spent on additional water, fencing, and buildings for the conversion of the land or a substa,ntial part of it, to sheep;

(c) Not less than one-half to be utilised for the clepasturing of sheep throughout the whole term. " 4. Y cs ; a transfer from the Aus

tralian Pastoral Company Limited to Leslie Ernest Cyril Chapl~in was r~gisterecl on 21st May, 1936.

" 5. The Australian Pastoral Company, Limited, which is an experienced sheep lessee, reg·ardecl the country as unsuitable for sheep, a.nd was unwilling to flxpencl monev in converting it to a sheep holding. 'The department, however, regards parts of the country as suitable for sheep, and the pastoral development lease has been granted to ensure its development and use for thaL purpose.''

HOTELS DESTROYED BY FIRE. Mr. NICKLIN (M1trr1tmba) aske·d the

Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-" How many hotels were wholly or

partially destroyed by fire in the follow-

ing periods, namely-(a) 12th September, 1933, to 11th June, 1934, inclusive; (b~ 12th June, 1934, to 11th March, 1935. inclusive; and (c) 12th March, 1935, b 11th December, 1835 inclusive?"

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, lthaca) replied-

" Information regarding hotels prior to 12th December, 1935, is not held bv the Licensing Commission. In order to prepare a record of such fires it would be necessa.ry to have a search in the office of each clerk of petty sessions m the State. This would be a costly procedure and would hardly be justified. However, a leading fire insurance company supplies the following figures:(") 12; (/1) 18: (1') 19."

PROPOSED LOAN TO MARYBOROUGH HOSPITALS BOARD.

Mr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay) asked the Secretary for Health and Home Affa,irs-

" 1. Has the J\1aryborough Hospitals Board made applica,tion to his department for a loan of £24,000 for additional private wards, doctor's residence, &c.?

"2. What local authorities a,re included in the Maryborough Hospita,l District·;

" 3. Which of the contributing local authorities havc-(a) approved of the loan; (b) protested agamst the loan?

" 4. Will he consult with all the loca,l authorities concerned before finalising thi<J matter?"

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A1\l> HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, lthaca) replied-

" 1. Yes. " 2. City of ,Maryborough, Shires of

Burrum and 'vVoocoo, and Divisions 1 and 2 of Shire of Tiaro.

"3. (a) The approval of contributing local a,uthorities is not required; ( !J 1 tl~<· Councils of the City of Maryborough, Shires of Bun·um, 'vVoocoo and Tiaro.

'"4. No."

KINGAROY RAILWAY STATION. Mr. E:DWARDS (;¥anango) asked the

Minister for Transport-" 1. What has been the expenditure on

the Kingaroy Railway Station building -(a) original cost; (b) expenditure since; and (c) total?

" 2. 'vVhat amount ha;; been received in rentals from the Kingaroy Railwa,y Station grounds-( a) in 1935-1936; (b) total to 30th June, 1936 ?"

The MINISTER FOR TRANSPOR'r (Hon. J. Dash, JYfv.ndi·ngburra) replied-

" 1 and 2. The information is being obtained."

TRAKSFERS FROM UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF FUND. Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) asked the Trea

surer-" What were the amounts of the trans

fers in 1935-1936 from the Unemployment Relief Fund-(a) to consolidated revenue; (b) subsidies to loca,l authorities; (c) other (if any)?"

330 Control of Alsatian Dogs. [ASSEMBLY.] Control of Alsatian Dogs.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) replied-

" (a) To interest payment on subsidies granted to local authorities, £108.187 lls. 3d.; (b) subsidies to local authorities, £219,582 13s. 4d.; (c) there were no other transfers."

INTEREST oN GovERNl>IENT LoANS TO LoCAL AuTHORITIES.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) asked the Trea. surer-

" What rate of interest is charged by the Government on loans to local authorities-(a) loans without subsidy; (b) subsidised loans?"

The TREASURER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) replied-

" (a) 4~ per cent. per annum; (b) 5 per cent. per annum."

SALE OF JlAMIWlJN P.\RK.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) asked the Secretary for Public Lands-

"In reference to the sale of the Hamilton Park to Messrs. Brett and Company Proprietary Limited-

(1) Di.d the Government or the Brisbane City Council have the final decision as to the sale of this park?

· (2) Did the Government or the City Council determine the price at which it wa& sold?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) replied-

" 1 and 2. The Brisbane City Council, which held the freehold title of the !~!!d."

PAPER.

The following paper was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Annual Report of the Public Service Commissioner, being for the year 1935-1936.

CONTROL OF ALSATIAN DOGS.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN (Dalby) [10.40 ~t.m.]: I move-

" That it is desirable that the Local Authorities Acts be so amended as to authorise any local authority to prohibit the keeping of an Alsatian dog or to order the sterilisation of any such dog."

I should like hon. members to debate this subject in a non-party spirit. I recognise that there are hon. members on both sides of the House who may object to the motion in its present form, and would like to see it amended, and I take the opportunity of informing them that I have no objection to that course. I invite them to discuss the subject freely and frankly, and without regard to political consequences. It has been debated in most other Parliaments in Australia. It was dealt with in the Western Australian Parliament by the introduction of a private member's Bill, which had for its objective that which I am seeking to obtain by my motion. The Government of the day did not consider it advisable that they should take upon themselves the responsibility of introducing a Bill. A select committee, consisting of members on both sides of the House, was first appointed to consider

[Mr. Morgan.

a draft Bill and take evidence on the subject. That inquiry occupied about six days, and seventeen witnesses were examined. The Bill was then brought down, and evontuall)· passed both Houses of Parliament. I should be quite agreeable to the introduction of a similar-Bill in this Parliament by a private member. I also favour the appointment of a committee consisting of members of both sides of the House to draft such a Bill, iu the event, of course, of the Government deciding that they arc not prepared to accept the responsibility.

This is a most important matter, and ono that we should not look upon as affecting any particular individual. It principally affects a great industry upon which this State depends almost entirely for its wealth. I do not appro"'ch this matter as one who is opposed to dogs. There are two animals I have always admired, one the horse and the other the dog. They are the two most faithful animals I know of, and I would not be without either. I am not therefore moving this resolution because I detest dogs, or because I haY£' an objection to them. I greatly admire the dog, which is the most faithful of animals. Mv endeavour is to deal with this question as broadly as possible, and I hope that other hon. members will follow my example.

We all know that this matter has been agitating the minds of the people of this State, more particularly those who depend for their livelihood on our greatest industry. On sm·eral occasions the Local Authorities' Association has unanimously passed a resolution similar to the motion I have moved. Local authorities comprise all sections of the community, and they have thought it advisable to draw publie attention to the menace of this particular dog. The various branches of the graziers' associations, not only in this State but all over Australia, have passed resolutions calling for governmental action. In addition, the Settlers' Association, the various farmers' associations, and other public bodies, have passed resolutions calling for action to prohibit the keeping of these animals. That proves the popularity of the course proposed in my motion. Wherever one goes there is objection to this dog being allowed to increase. That objection is raised not only in this State, but throughout the length and breadth of Australia. We have thousands of dogs in Australia doing work that it is necessary for dogs to do. Dogs are more or less harmless creatures, there are plenty of breeds to choose from, and we can well do without this importation. When the Federal Government permitted the entry of the Alsatian into Australia, they knew nothing of its antecedents, and I am sure, had more diligent inquiries been made, there would have been no need for this motion. They were admitted unfortunately-! say that advisedly-and ever since there has been a continual agitation against them.

We can all understand the point of, view of those persons who make a livelihood by the sale of these dogs and their offspring. '!bey have made an enormous amount of money, and it is natural that they should foster a counter-agitation, but sheep and other stock owners are demanding that these animals be banned, because of the enormous losses they have caused during the last four or five years to our herds and flocks.

I intend to submit evidence in support of lllY contention that this dog is a type of

Control of Alsatian Dogs. [10 SEPTEMBER.) Control of Alsatian Dogs. 331

wolf. All the information I haYe been able to obtain is in that direction. The following is an extract from a book entitled " 'The .\lsatian Wolf Dog," by George Horowitz :-

" That certain strains of Alsatians do contain wolf blood eau be taken for granted, if only on the authority of m eh a great expert on the breed as :\1:ousieur Otto Rahm, Switzerland, who has told us that the great-granddarn of the well-known Hector van V\T ohleu was the product of a mating bot,veon a clog wolf and an Alsatian bitch."

An extract from "vVatch-dogs, Their Training and Management," by LieutenantColonel E. H. Richardson, reads-

" For many generations this wolf-like dog had been used by the shepherds of liermany for guarding the sheep. The dogs of South Gcrrmtnv were of th~ larger size than these in. the north, and nnc or two German breeders thought t.hat by crossing the two types they could get larger and stronger dogs. The <hcpherd dog had always been crossed Pvery now .and then with wolves. to keep them fierce. and now that th'' large, strong dog \vas purposely rnanu~ facturPd by expert breeders, it was again t bought advisable to bring in a 'train of vvolf once n1orc. to ensure thr: d1aractcr. anU .scn~ral of the first dog-"' '-;'gistered in the German Sheep Dog Uub were half wolf. This accounts for r he curious character of the breed-th<) mixture of timiditv and ferocitv which lurks in so many ~f these dog;;<~"

Lieutenant-Colonel E. H. Richardson i' on0 of the greatest authorities on the matter in Great Britain. He has had much to do with dogs of all d0scriptions and in training dogs for war and police purposes.

The following is an extract from a book entitled " The German Shepherd Dog m \Vord and Picture," written by Captain von 8t0phanitz :-

"Most ~mfortunately, howC\·er, so,·eral real crossmgs ha vc been made and the products of the breeding have been most rashly givcen into the hands of ' lay people.' The chief sinners generally in 'uch cases have been menagerie proprieton, who know how to turn a pennY b.v leading to a wolf a bitch on heat or '"ice versa a domestic dog to their shewolf. I purposely refrain from saying ' shepherd dog,' not but that the product was always shepherd-dog-like because the wolf side, being the stron'ger sexually, always came to the front and the progeny w·erc ahvav :~ sold as '\volf~ shepherd dogs.' " ·

Tbc remarks of Captain Charles Olsen, the master of the Roose,·cldt liner "Arcturus." when interviewed by the "Argus" in 1928, are interesting-

"Alsatians arc extre1nelv vicious and ehould be owned only by people who thoroughly understand them.

"They should never be allowed to stray h·orn keen human supervision.

"They arE' the most intelligent and most interesting of animals.

"I have train0d ' Ranch ' since she was a pup, but can stilf find many instances of the savagery of the breed.

"I do not believe that thev should be l•anned, but 1 am com·inecd that they

should be krpt only by people holding a ~pecial license.

" The breed has the veneer of an excellent clog, but the wolf strain is very near to the surface. So long as it is tmdcr human control an Alsatian may l>e safe, Lmt it cannot be trusted."

shall produce eYidence to show that opinion is a very sound one.

The claim that Alsatians can he trained for ·working sheep and are used in Gern1any for such purposes has been investigated and it has been found that the conditions of sheepwork in Germany are entirely different from those in Australia. In Germany the shepherding of sheep is principally carried out jn very confined areas, and man and dog work close together. The test of merit in working sheep may he shortly described thus--

(a) 'l'he clog being under command is able to head a mob at close quarters, and turn a wing, and must attack a sheep should it try to stray from the flock.

(b) To guard the flock against thieves or the attack of stray dogs.

In. Southern Germany dogs are taught to grtp the sheep by the nape of the neck and ribs. In Australia, this, of course, would not be tolerated. The handling of sheep under German conditions does not call for a dog with those working qualities -that arc so essential under Australian conditions. and at his best, the Alsatian might be described by our standard as rough secondclass drover·s dog.

Mr. J. L. ::VIoore is a noted Victorian dog breeder. He has traine-d a consideral1le number of dogs that haYe been awarded prizes throughout Australia. He giYcs this as his opinion-

" The Alsatian at hi,; hest would be looked upon as a very poor sheep dog under our Australian standards of merit: and since the war he has deteriorated as a worker of the flock."

Since the war the Alsatian has become more or less the national dog of Germany. Instead of being bred as workers they .are novv bPin(r bred in many countries as bench dog-s. On~ of Germany's greatest authorities, writing recently about the Alsatian, said-

" lie no'v liYc~ on the good rcputa6on built up by the yeoman service of his ancestors, which he no longer knows how to perform.''

There is no record of an Alsatian ever being entered in any sheep dog trial . in Australia and no application for registratiOn of an A'lsatian has yet been received by the Victorian Working Sheep Dog Association. This is not because there have not been attempts to train them, because I shall quote from extracts to show that numerous attempts to do so have been made by the verv best trainers in Australia. At our shows we have seen what can be done in the training of sheep dogs. We know how intelligent these dogs are. Messrs. G. Butler, L. Learmonth, and S. Finlay, members of the association mentioned, and all competent trainers have endeavoured to train Alsatians for sheep work, but every dog proved useless for the purpose and could not be prevented from killing. In spite of perseverance on the part of the owners, the dogs eventually had to be destroyed. These three men are noted as breeders all over Australia ; their

Mr. Morgan.]


work is not confined to Victoria or Queensland. Mr. R. Dickson, of Deniliquin, had a, similar experience. Mr. R. Carroll, who is one of the most experienced sheep dog trainers in Western Australia, attempted to train a half-bred Alsatian. In a letter dated 6th April, 1929, before the Western Australia Act came into force, he gave the result of his experience-

" I had a slut pup from a good sheep slut said to be the leading Alsatian dog in Perth. We tried to teach her sheep work, but the only instinct she possessed was to kill, which she did as soon as she was strong enough. She was of course, destroyed. Although I am in close touch with sheep men all over the State, I have never seen or heard of a genuine case of an Alsatian of any use with sheep."

These arc opinions of men who have been noted all their lives for the training of dogs.

A GovER::-!ME"T MnmER: What was the cross?

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: It does not say the cross, but I presume it was with a kelpie or some other light breed. It would not be a cross with a greyhound.

In Germanv the Alsatians are used to keep the wolf away from the sheep, and not the sheep from the wolf-not as shej)herders of sheep, but as destroyers of wolves. They are not used for droving purposes. Thev are used for keeping the wolf a way fror{; the sheep, and for the destruction of the wolf. That fact throws light on one of the difficulties with which we have to contend, and one of my reasons for bringing this motion before the House.

Every State in Australia, with the exception of Tasmania and Queensland, has legislated to deal with this menace, whereas the fact that Queensland is the largest pastoral State in the Commonwealth is the best reason why we should have been the first to do so. Western Australia, a State with conditions similar to those of Queensland, although not possessing quite so many sheep, is faced with the dingo menace. Hon. rpembers know the enormous expense to which pastoralists are put in netting their holdings in order to keep the dingo away from their flocks. One of the reasons why the Queensland graziers are experiencing financial difficulties to-day is the fact that they have been forced to over-eapitalise their land by putting up fences at a cost of from £100 to £125 a mile in order to keep the dingo out of their flocks. In Victoria and the other States where the dingoes are not a pest the cost for an ordinary five and six-wire fence is not nearly so great as that of the netting fence that must be erected in this State. But if the Alsatian is allowed to cross with the dingo, or with the progeny of a tame dog crossed with a dingo, the ordinary 5 feet, 5 feet 6 inch, or 6 feet netting fence will be useless. The cross will be so strong and intelligent that the menace will be even greater than that of the ordinary dingo, with which we can cope at the expense I have mentioned. One has to go a long way to find a purebred dingo; there are very few in Queensland to-day. Most of them have been crossed with our station dogs, and these crossbreeds are much more dangerous than the purebred dingo. How much more dangerous, then, will be the

[Mr. Morgan.

cross between these hybrids and the Alsatians ? The present netting fences will b.e no protection to sheep and even the people in the countrv districts will run tho risk of being attacked by the savage animaLs that will be bred.

The \V est ern Australian legislation provides for the destruction or sterilisation of Alsatian dogs. The Pastoralists' Association of \V estern Australia first en de a vourecl to have a Bill introduced for the purpos<' but the Government were averse to the measure. The select committee of six, to which I have already referred, was appointed to investigate the need for such legislation. The supporters of the Government were in the majority on this committee but the evidence submitted to it was so overwhelming that it was forced to recommend the introduction of the propos<'d rncasurP.

J\fr. Knw: Do the Gm-ernmcnt there ad through th<' local m1thDl'ities, or straight out?

Mr. GODFREY :YIORGA'\J: Straight oL1t. Io New South \Vales the Pastures Protection Ad provides that no person may keep or have in his possession or under his control within certain pastures protection distt·icts any unsterilised Alsatian dog. The maximum penalty prescribed is a fine of £50.

"Any unsterilised Alsatian dog "-that means that in those particular district,; if there is an Alsatian that is not sterilised the owner has to pay a penalty of £50. The onus of proving sterilisation is on the defendant and can be discharged only by producing a certificate by a registered veterinary surgeon. Any person convicted of this offence may be ordered b_v the Pasture> Protection Board to destroy the dog and if ho fails to comply with this the board's officer may destroy it.

The board has power to prevent any dog that is not sterilised from coming into such a district. The result is that they will eventually be exterminated. They cannot breed with a dingo or tame dog, In cities such as Svdney they were not dealt with and were· allowed to do what they liked, such as injuring women and children and other persons, but fortunately the Government are protecting the sheep and cattle from them.

A GovERNMENT MEMBER: What is the position in South Australia?

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: The Act in South Australia provides, under pain of penalty not exceeding £10, that no Alsatian dog shall be kept within any part of the State to which the Act applies and that any person may destroy any Alsatian dog in such area. In other portions of the State, the registration fee for Alsatian dogs is £2. The Government may by regulation reduce the area within which Alsatians may be kept. The Government do not allow ewm a sterilised dog in an area to which the South Australian Act applies.

Mr. WATERS: Why did you not do it when you were in power?

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: We had a Bill drafted, but unfortunately it did not go through. I do not want this matter to be m a de a party question as I said before. 11, was a mistake that we did not pass that legislation and it was. a mistake that thP Federal Government d1d not prevent the>c dogs from being imported. They are her•>

Control of Alsatian Dogs. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Control of Alsatian Dogs. 333

now, and it is too latP to take that coursP. We can, however, deal with those that ai'P

here. Dog fanciers want to make a few miserable pounds by tho sale of these dogs and thev seem to be a blc to wio Id a certain power, but tho fact remaius that these dogs have become a menace throughout Australia.

Fnder a Northern Territory ordinance, no more Alsatian dogs can be taken to the Territory, and the progeny of dogs alread:.· in the Territory born after May, 1934, cannot be retained there. but must either be destroyed or sent out of the Territory. Even the authorities in the Territory have dealt with these dogs more or less effcciively. and I suppose that it is more infested with dingoes than am· other part of Australia.

So far as I am aware, there is no legislation deflling with Alsatians in Tasmania. as there is none in Queensland. Thoso ar<' the only two States without legislation affecting them. Tasmania is so small that I suppose the dingo does not exist there. In anv case it is not a very important State from a grazing point of view. In Queensland, however, we have vast pastoral interests to think of.

The Commonwealth GoYernment did all in their nowe1· to deal with the menace. One :\Iinist<'l' of the Crown sairl the Commonwealth should. pass a Bill to bring about the destruction of the Alsatian. but the Common\vealth has not power to interfere with the animals once they arc in the State. It only has power to prevent their importation. The original prohibition against the importation of Alsatians into the Commonwealth ran for five years. but the proclamation of the 7th J unc, 1934, has no limit, so that for a long time no more Alsatians can come into Australia. The Commonwealth has done its duty; we want the State to do its duty.

It is only right when one makes statements that or.e should endeavour to prove them. I therefore quote some proof of what I have said-and not he:nsay, not something that somebody told somebody's aunt. All the statements that I am about to read and the signatures of the persons making them may be easilv verified. The first statement in support of my contentions came from the Clermont District Imprm·ement Board, anrl was addressed to the Secretary for Public L:.u:d:-. Brisbane. It Rays-

" Re Alsatian dogs. I have by direction to forward you a letter received from the H':unilton Downs Pastoral Company, the lessee of Lennox holding, complaining that their dog trapper had trapped two Alsatians which he had pr<'viously seen rounding up a mob of sheep.''

Thev were two pure Alsatians, not crossIJl'eds. It goes on to say-

" Mr. Ranger Graham, on 8th November last, reported that Mr. E. G. Blume, of Dunrobin holding (adjoining Lennox) had twelve AJsatians, ten of which were three months old. It is understood that some of these clogs escaped from the enclosure around Dunrobin homestead. and although Dunrobin holding is enclosed with a 6-feet netting fence they apparentlv got over or through this fence on to Lennox holding.

" The board brings the matter under your notice in support of the recent request that Alsatians should be prohibited in Queensland, and to show that

the seriousness of this new menace to the sheep industry has not been underestimated.

" It is trusted that in the light of this evidence you will reconsider your decision to allow Alsatian dogs to be kept in Queensland without at least being sterilised.

" I have the honour to be, sir, " Your obedient servant,

Here is under the of 1906-

"'\Y. G. GILL, Cleric''

a statutory deolaration S!Worn \V estern Australia Evidence Act

" I, Arnold George Herbert, of the Department of Agriculture, Perth, professional vermin trapper, do solemnly and sincerely declare as follows :-

" 1. I am employed by the State V crmin Board as a trapper, and have been so employed for the past two and a-half years. I have been trapping altogether for fifteen years. During this time I have trapped hundreds of dingoes.

" 2. I know the Alsatian dog well. I would describe its main characteristics as follows : Big-, rough-haired dog, powerfully built, prick ears, black muozle with bushy tail frequently with white tip, a wolf type with a bold intelligent eye, mostly slate-grey coat.

"3. In July, 1931, I was trapping in the Mount Marshal! district, and one day found a large dog dead in one of my traps. I recognised it as an Alsatian dog. It was unsterilised, and had no collar.

"4. I scalped the dog, and took the scalp into the Mount Marshal! Vermin Board, where it was definitely established as belonging to an Als.atian by the members of the board.

'' 5. Upon iuquirics being made it was ascertained that a purebred Alsatian dog owned by one Eric McManus, of Mount Marshal!, had disappeared from its home some eighteen months. previously.

"6. Upon my approaching McManus, he admitted to rne and to the late Cowan James Craig, the then Chief Inspector of Vermin, that the dog which I had trapped was his, McManus's Alsatian. He told us that he had bought this from one Snowdon, of Perth, an importer of Alsatians, and that it was a pedigreed dog."

This is the point that I want to emphasise to illustrate the danger of the Alsatian dog mating with the dingo or the dingo-('ro.ss-

" 7. A fortnight later, within a mile of the place where I trapped the Alsatian dog, I trapped. a dingo slut .with three pups. The slut was pure dmgo, but the pups were distinctly an Alsatian cross with a dingo. They would be about twelve months old.

"8. I base my opinion on the following facts : The pups were a good deal larger than dingo pups of the same age.· They were of a slate-grey colour, with a very dark muzzle, and in general appearance very much more like an Alsatian than a dingo.

" 9. I took their scalps to Mount Marshall Vermin Board, who unanimously

Mr. Morgan.]

334 Control of Alsatian Dogs. [ASSEMBLY.) Control of Alsatian Dogs.

confirmed my opinion as to their breeding.

" And I make this solemn declaration by virtue of section 106 of ' The Evidence Act, 1906.'

" Declared a.t Perth, this nineteenth day of July, 1933. before me, H. A. \Yhite, a connniesioner for declarations.

"A. G. HERBERT."

That is sworn eviucnce of a tra.pper that a purebred Alsatian dog left his home, "went bush,'' anu mated with a dingo bitch. The deponent declares that the purebred Alsatian was caught in a trap and that a few weeks subsequently, almost at the same spot, a dingo bitch was also trapped and that she had several Alsatian pups. There was no inducement for this deponent to make a false stat0rncnt. and his evidence furnishes positive proof that the Alsatian will mate with th0 dingo.

Another instance I desire to quote was brought before the notice of the chairman nf the District Imprm·ement Board, Clermont, by the Hamilton Downs Pastoral Compa.ny in the following letter:-

" I beg to report the destruction of young Alsatian dogs on Lennox Holding within the last 'veek-one dog and onP . ~lut. \Vc keep "' permanent dog-trapper there-A. Aitk0n-whom I think is the hest man in thP country at that work. He saw the dog with a mob of sheep rounded n p a fc" days before he trapped h!m- He rpports them very vicious lollm·s and that they have killed a good many sheep. Apparently there is someone about that locality breeding Alsatians. Could vou ascertain who is breeding them am{ if possible. restrain !hem? I consider breeding these dogs m the coLmtr:.· where there are sheep and dingoes is cr-iminal. The annual tax on the-se dogs should be very heavy and under penalty, too."

This letter is ~onfirmatory of the prm·iou-; rpport concernmg the destruction of the dogs in question.

I also clesir.:; to read the following statutory dcclarahon s1gned bv \Villiam Beak as to seeing a croo·,bred · Alsatian-dingo in his localit;: :-

" 'Oaths Act of 1867.' " STATUTORY DECLARATION.

" Queensland to wit. " I, \Yilliam Beak, of The Meadows,

in the Rtatc of Queensland, grazier, do solemnly and sincerely declare that or, or about the tenth of May last I saw what I feel positive is a half or crossbred Alsatian dingo a few miles south of Kunwarara, and during the same trip I saw a second half or crossbred Alsatian dingo on Banksia Station, both running in a wild state. I understand that an Alsatian dog was lost in the above locality, if this is so it easily accounts for the crossbreds seen there bv myself and others. ·

"And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the provisions of the ' Oaths Act of 1867.'

"WILLIA!vi BEAK, J.P. " Tak0n and declared before me, at

Rockhampton, this fifth day of August, 1933.

"C. T. STEEX, J.P."

[Mr. Morgan.

I hav-e yet another instance. The sccretan· of the Graziers' Association of Central and '\'"orthern Queensland, Rockhampton, writing on the 21st September, 1933, stated-

" Recently the manager of the C.Q.M.E. Co., Mr. A. H. Paterson, forwarded me the skin of an Alsatian dingo crossbred bitch, shot in the vicinity of Fitzroy Vale.

" Publicity was given to t!Hl securing of further evidence of the existence of this menace here.

"As a result questions have been asked by the Defence League. These I submitted to Mr. Paterson, and I have just received his reply thereto.

" I am forwarding herewith copi0s of the correspondence, and in a few days will forward you the skin.

"I would be glad if you would take the matter up with both the Defence League and the Minister for Lands on behalf of the association."

I have read that letter partly to show the nature of the questions submitted by the Alsatian Defence League, and how it endeavours on all occasions to bolster up a case of the retention of the Alsatian .

The following letter was received from Mr. Paterson, manager of the Central Queensland Meat Export Company, Lake'~ Ct-eck, dated 11th September, 1933 :-

" I sent you this morning the skin of an Alsatian cross dingo bitch which was shot on the reserve between Fitzrov Vale and Balnagowan by Jarnes Osborn.: ringbarking contractor, about two week~ ago.

" You will recollect that the skin recently forwarded was from a dog shot b:v T. J. Wigginton in the rangy country at the back of Fitzroy Vale, and as this also was undoubtedly an Alsatian cross it is evident that a number of dingoes of that cross are loose in this neio:hbom·hood.- You may make any use ,:ou wish of the skin." ·

This was acknowledged by Mr. P11terson in the following terms:-

"I have to acknowledge your letter of t~e 11th instant to which publicity was given.

" I now forward you copy of a letter received from the Alsatian Dog Defence Lea.gue.

" Any further information that would enable us to amwer the questions put, in such a way as to give further weight to our representations to the authorities, would be appreciated.

" If 1\ir. Os borne, or anyone else in the vicinity, could give a statement that the father of these two or other crossbreeds is known to him, this would be of considerable assistance to the assocra.. tion.

" I am sending the skin on to the United Graziers' Association with any such statement procurable."

This is wha.t the league wanted to know-" In view of this stateme.nt my league

would like you to be good enough to answer the following questions:-

(1) On wha.t authority do you state the skin is an Alsatian-ding-o cross?

(2! Do you know the father and mother of the animal?"

Control of Alsatian Dog8. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Control of Alsatian Dogs, 331.5

What a ridiculous question to ask ! " (3) What e:<perience have you had

with Alsatians?" This is the reply that was sAnt by Mr. Paterson-

" We acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 19th instant forwarding copy of communication dated 13th idem from the Alsatian Dog Defence League, for which we are obliged.

" In answer to the inquiries from tho league we advise as follows :-

(1) As the skin produced to you very plainly indicat"s the bitch destroyed was undoubtedly of the cross referred to.

(2) We do not know definitely the father or mother of the animal.

(3) We have sufficient experience of dogs to know an Alsatian and an Alsatian cross dingo, such as this one was, when we see them and especially when we can handle the skin."

It is impossible to swear to a skin as being that of an Alsatian-dingo cross. I saw what 1 h8lir.ve wa' a half-bred Alsatian killed in a paddock adjoining my own. It was different from every other dingo that had been kiiled in that district. in which thousands were destmyed during the last few years. It was undoubtedly an Alsatian cross, but how could anyone swear to it? The United Graziers' Association obtained a number of skins and anyone who is familiar with dogs would have no doubt that those skins were taken from Alsatian crosses, but although persons who are competent to judge have no doubt in their own minds they cannot prove it. In every way the skins represent the Alsatian in appearance and markings. It is extraordinary that animals of this type have only appeared during the period in which Alsatians have been in Australia. Dingoes are said to be of all colours-black brindle, and white-but I do not call the~ dingoes when they bear those colours. I rall them wild dogs. The purebre-d dingo does not carry those colours. Animals of that colour are crossbreds.

The Alsatian Defence League admits that any ordinary dog will cross with an Alsatian. \Vc know definitely that the ordinary tarn<' dog will cross with the dingo. That raises the question: If the ordinary dog will cross with the dingo and the Alsatian will cross with the ordinary dog, why should not the Alsatian cross with the dingo?

I think the answer is obvious. At any rate I belicYe I have produced enough evidence to prove my contention in that regard.

I wish to deal with a most important matter bearing on this question, that is the report that was made by Dr. Robertson m September, 1929, and made use of by the Alsatian Defence League. That gentleman was asked to give his opinion on the Alsatian. and at a time when there were very few Alsatians in Australia. His report stated that the evidence then adduced to prove the conte':tion that the Alsatian dog was savage cons1sted of newspaper cuttings from English papers and that only one case was reported in Autralia of an attack upon a human being. I intend to deal with that as I proceed.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order : The hon. member has exhausted the time allowed him under the Standing Orders.

Mr. :l\ICKLIN (JfuNwnba) [11.21 a.m.]: I move-

" That the hon. member for Dalby be g-ranted an extension of time to enabl" him to complete his speech."

Mr. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. member for Dalbv lw g-ranted an extension of time to enable 'him to complete his speech?

HoNOURABLE ME}!BERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: This is an important matter, Mr. Speaker, and I thank hon. members for giving me an opportunity to produce all the evidence I have. I now quote a letter from the Prime Minister's Department of the Commonwealth Government, dated from Canberra, on 22nd September, 1933, to the Secretary of the Gra,iers' Federal Council of Austr~lia. It reads-

" Dear Sir,--\Vith further reference to your letter of 19th August, 1933, on the subject of Alsatian dogs, I am directed to inform you that advice has been received from Dr. Robertson. Director, Division of Veterinary Hygiene, as follows:-

' My report on Alsatian dogs was not based upon the calling of "witnc,scs" and "evidence." but followed consideration of written renorts for and against the do" receive-d as thu result of a Press an;;ouncement by the P1·ime Minister that a report had been called for, and my own knowledge 011 the matter.

' The only verbal information ~eeeived was from Mr. Pennington, M.L.A .. Victoria.

' I did not attempt to check tlw correctn0ss of the Press report referred to in my report of 13th July, 1933 (copy of whir·h was forwarded to the Graziers' Federal Council of Austra· lia), neither did I attempt to check the Press reports submitted by the Graziers' Federal Council under cover of their letter of 23rd ,June. 1933. or preYious correspondence.'

"Yours faithfully. ., (Sgd.) ,J. H. :::\TARLJNG,

'' Secretary."

That is Dr. Robertson's reply to a question as to how he arrived at his conclusions, but it must be remembered that when the rcnort was made in 1929 there werE' only a 'few Alsatians in Australia. Up to that tinw there had not been many instances of thf'ir attacking human beings or stock. I wonder what would be the tenor of the doctoe's report at the preseHt timf', but whatnYer it might be, it must be remembered that it would only be the opinion of one man. He has had no experience of the Alsatian dog, and he admits that he did not call evidence to substantiate his findings. The Secretary for Public Lands, who is evidently a champion of the Alsatian, has always based his attitude on the report of Dr. Robertson. I am sorry that is so, because so far as Alsatians are concerned, I do not think the report is worth the paper it is written on. At a conference of State Ministers for Agriculture, held in Melbourne

Mr. Morgan.]

336 Gont1·ol of Alsatian Dogs. [ASSEMBLY.] Control of Alsatian Dogs.

l!J 1929. th0 following resolution was ·carried:--

,, That thio conference of :Ministers of Agriculture places on record its appreci~tion of the Commonwealth Government in prohibiting the further importation of Alsatian dogs, and agrees to recomm<>nd to their respective Governments to introduce legislation at the earliest opportunity to destroy or sterilise all Alsatian dogs in their respectivo States."

The hon. member for Cooroora, who was then Secretary for Agriculture and Stock in Queensland upon his return from that conference pre'pared a Bill to be placed before the House. Ho will give reasons why the Bill was not made law and will furnish all information concerning it.

I wish now to cite cases that ha vo been decided by courts of law in which the owners of Alsatian dogs have been fined heavily or had to pay large amounts by way of compensation for damage caused by the dogs to persons and stock. Let me quote first the statement made by a former Secretary for .Agriculture and Stock in Victoria, IVIr. Pennington, concerning an attack by a dog upon his daughter. He

'' Tvl,- daughter was presented with o:1e of those, wolf hounds in 1926. It was presented to her by a lady in London, >Yho sent it our here free of expense_ In April of the following year I nearly lost my daughter through an attack made on her by that dog. It attacked her without .any warning and ripped her from ear to ear; eleven stitches had to be inserted in the wound by the doctor. It also put its teeth through right under her right breast. also through her right shoulder and through her left leg."

That was the rcsu lt of an attack upon thf' girl by a clog that she had owned since it was a puppy. In the :Melbourne "Argus'' of 1929 appears a report of a case in which the complainant was awarded £12 6<. damages by the court. The following are reports of laweuits as a re,,ult of damage caused by Alsatian dogs:-

" Melbourne ' Argus,' 13th June, 1929. -Man bitten by Alsatian. Awarded £12 6s. damages.

" 'The Daily Telegraph,' 19th August. 1931.-Rinty Sumbac, a champion Alsa· tian dog, becomes unmanageable at See street, Ryde, and attacks his master and mistress, Mr. and Mrs. Bull. Mrs. Bull', arm is torn from shoulder to wrist. She is also gripped by the neck but i.< saved by a fur coat. Mr. Bull escapes with torn clothes. The dog is shot.

" ' The Labour Daily,' 25th August, 1931.-Henry Simpson, of Trafalgar street, Stanmore, has his hand bitten by an Alsatian dog and recovers £50 damages. ,Judge Edwards states that the evidence indicates that the dog was very savage.

" ' The Sydney Morning Herald,' 23rd l\1arch, 1932.-Mr. W. Gilkes, of 6 Clyde etreet, Croydon Park, attacked by his Alsatian dog and bitten in chest and arm. Dog destroyed at owner's request

" Sydney ' Sun,' 30th June, 1932.Alsatian savagely mauls 13-year-old girl

[Mr. M organ.

at St. Kilda, Melbourne. Dog &ubsequently destroyed.

" ' Sydney Morning Herald,' 16th :\ovcmber, 1932.-Alsatian dog ferociously attacks its master, Mr. G. Robinson, of Russell street, Rose Bay. Mr. Robinson severely bitten about face, arms, and legs. Subsequently the dog attacks a constable and is shot.

" 'Sydney Morning Herald,' 21st :\' overnbor, 1932.-Alsatian attacks boy and bites him severely about throat and face. Owner applies cause of attack to be jealousy. Dog shot. The fact that on several previous occasions the same dog had bitten the boy suggeets that there are many unreported case' giving evidence of the savageness of these dogs."

I wish now to read a letter that was written to you, Mr. Speaker, by Mr. Cecil H. Andorson, of Casino, on the 20th SeptcmbN, 1933-

" GEORGE PoLLOcK, EsQ., "Brisbane.

" Dear Sir,-Seeing that you arc interested in the Alsatian dog question, the evidence of those clogs being sheep killers is irrefuta.ble.

" Last week, on a reserve 6 miles out, an eight-months Alsatian pup was caught ' red-handed,' or rather 'red-mouthed,' by the drover in charge after tearing the.· throats out off eight sheep. The ownf!r. who lived by the reserve, paid for the pup's ' outing ' without demur.

" There is no argument about the danger from the dingo-"'\Jsatian cros,, by men with bush experience, but what will happen if a slut of the breed goes 'bush,' as many ordinary dogs have done, and rears a litter of wild pups. \\"e shall have Australian wolves of a dangerous type in no tinw.

"Yours faithfully. "(Sgd.) CECIL H. AKDERSON."

I suppose you know that gentleman, Mr. Speaker.

Here are some more instances, summarised to save time--

" Alsatian dog caught worrying sheep in Canterbury, New Zealand. One man reported loss of 19 ewes in a single night.-(' Sydney Morning Herald,' 7th August, 1929).

"ATTACKS Ol'i LIVE STOCK (Ol:TSIDE AUSTRALIA).

" Alsatian killed. Been killing deer by the hundreds for two years in South Dakota's State Park.-(' California Wool Grower,' 16th July, 1929).

"ATTACKS ON HU)fAN BEil'iGS (OUTSIDE AUSTRALIA).

" Alsatian dog rushed into a girls' school at Tours, France, and began worrying the children. One girl taken to hospital and pronounced in a grave condition; school caretaker also badly hurt. Dog then rushed into street, and bit several foot passengers.-(' Manchester Guardian,' 6th March, 1928).

" Girl attacked by Alsatian on the sands at Scarborough.-(' Daily Mirror,' England, 27th March, 1928).

Control of Alsatian Dogs. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Control of Alsatian Dogs. 337

"Woman twice attacked by Alsatian pet.-(' Daily Mirror,' England, 22nd Mrarch, 1928)."

\ir. KING: Other dogs attack people at ti 111"'8.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: Yes, but not to the same extent. I will not say that an ordinary cattle dog, or sometimes a sheep dog or " fox terrier, will not attack, but those dogs generally go for the legs and not for the throat, as do Alsatian dogs. You have some chance with a small dof;i, but these Alsatians are so strong and so mtelligent, and have the instinct 'to kill so ;;trongly that they are dangerous to human beings. I have been bitten by other dogs, but I ha vo had a chance of protecting myself against them, and I could protect myself. but I have no chance with Alsatians, big as I am. I should want a big stick or a gun to meet an Alsatian-they know too much. The people of Australia should not be subjected to attacks from dogs of tliat description, especially as we know they serve no useful purpose. A person who owns an Alsatian dog may fall in love with it and think it is the nicest dog he ever had, but should we as legislators allow a dog of that kind to exist in Queensland or Australia when we know it mav do a tremendous lot of harm and damage to our grazing industry, as well as be the means of crippling and injuring huri1an beings!

Let me quote these other instances-· "Alsatian and crossbred Alsatian

Grcot Dane raid sheep pen at Addlestone, Surrey. Both dogs ordered by the bench to be destroyed.-(Sydney 'Sun! 19th January, 1929).

" Alsatian dogs kill and mutilate 53 sheep at Humboldt, California.-(' California Wool Grower,' March, 1929).

" Alsatian sentenced to death as a sheep killer.--(' California Wool Grower,' 28th May. 1929).

"The death penalty passed on Alsatian accused of killing two sheep.(' California Wool Grower,' 18th February, 1930)."

l hrrvc here wmc information that will be ,-,f some inter('st to hon. members. It was not inspired and no inducement was held out for it to be written. It is the report of attacks by an Alsatian dog on sheep in Australia-

" \Ve have a lovely Alsatian wolfhound. His name is Jack and he is a great terror for sheep. He goes up -to a sheep and knocks it down and then goes np to another and does the same thing. He always goes to the sheep paddocks if it is possible for him to get a chance. -(Obervations of a little girl given expression to in a letter addressed' to 'Patience' of the ' Australasian,' dated 18th June, 1927).

" I had a slut pup from a good sheep slut by-- said to be the leading Alsatian dog of Perth. We tried to teach her sheep work, but the only instinct she possessed was to kill, which she did as soon as she was strong enough.(Letter, 6th April, 1929 from J. R. Carroll, a noted sheep-dog breeder in Western Australia).

"I owned a pure-bred Alsatian bit oh and a kelpie-Alsatian cross-dog. If the two got off the chain together they would

be sure to disappear for many hours, and on one occasion killed and mauled a number of our sheep. They were then only starting, as they were both young dogs. I shot the bitch. In the end the dog cleared out one night with a little kelpie sheep dog which was herself harmless. 'l'hey were away for a couple of days and killed sheep on four different properties. They were caught in the act, the Alsatian cross doing the killing in a most ferocious manner. The dog was dcstroyed.-(Letter from W. H. Sheridan, Broome Hill, 29th April, 1929).

"Alsatian dog. Sheep killing at Waroona, ·western Australia. Loss of 11 lambs, 1 ram, and 3 ewes. Damages awarded against owner.-(' Sydney Morning Herald,' lOth June, 1929,"

Hon. members will probably recollect that a .doctor at Kingaroy, who is the ow_ner of an Alsatian dog, was proceeded agamst for damages arising from the destruction of a settler's calves by the dog and a verdict was given in favour of the plaintiff for £77. There is an instance where a case actually cnme before a court in Queenslar>d.

Here is an extract from the "Couri~rMail " of 31st October, 1935, that states that an Alsatian dog was condemned to death in :\1elbourne. It says-

" The annual conference of the Municipal Association of Victoria, representing all municipalities in the State, to-day decided bv an overwhelming majority to urge tho Government to prohibt Alsatian dogs t'nti rely in Victoria, or f&iling that, to ('nforce the sterilisation of Alsatians."

At the present time a Bill to deal with Alsatian dogs is under consideration by the Victorian Government, and I have a copy of it. The Victorian Government decided that owners of Alsatian dogs must pay a rf''l'istration fee of £5, persumably to the Government, and we are informed through the Press that after that decision a considerable number of people thought so much of their pets-their Alsatian dogs-that they turned them loose into the streets, and between 180 and 190 of them were captured by the authorities who deal with straying dogs, and destroyed. That is what the owners thought of their dogs when they knew they were to be taxed for the privilege of keeping them. If we are to deal effectively with the menace in this State it may be necessary to impose a registration fee of £5 or £10. The owners woe~ld rather destroy th<'m than pay such fees.

I am not verv much concerned about the t~·pe of legislation that should be introdJcted to deal with the Alsatian dogs, but I do urge that the pastoral areas should be protected first of all. If the people in the cities are prepared to have Alsatians there that is a _matter for themselves, but as a representatrve of a country electorate I strongly protest against Alsatians being a llowe.d to increase in grazing areas. There must be some legislation to protect pastoralists in this State. I have before me 'a number of extracts, principally from the "Courier-Mail,'' showing the injury and damage inflicted by the Alsatian dog. The first one says that an Alsatian killed fortyeight ewes, and that the dog was destroyecl. Another one says that a boy who attended

Mr. Morgan.]


the Innisfail show was bitten by one of the Alsatian dogs. At Eagle Farm an Alsatian dog attacked a boy. Another rqJOrt state's that sixty sheep were killed at Warwi~k by an Alsatian dog, and another that the question of banning Alsatian dogs was considered at Canberra. Evidently they are a menace there too. Another report sets out that a claim for damages arising out of an attack by an Alsatian dog came before Mr. \Y. Simpson, Police Magistrate, Brisbane, and the claim was settled by the owner of the dog. A report from Hobart says that an Alsatian ran amok.

Here is another report which says tpai; an attack bv an Alsatian cost its owner £52- ,

" In the Central Summons Court to-day a man named Boyle was charged by summons with being the owner or keeper of an Alsatian dog, which attacked Mrs. Wcston, whereby her limbs were endangered. In fining Boyle £1 with £2 14s costs, and awarding Mrs. Weston £50 compensation. Mr. Stevenson, S.M., said that a dog of the type that attacked anybody without provocation should have been destroyed."

Then there is another report which says, "Alsatian attacks sm·en people." The report, which came from Sydney on 24th February, 1935, goes on to say-

" An Alsatian dog terrorised the residents of a street in Leiehhardt this morning, and savagely attacked five children and two adults before it was caught. Two policemen, in struggling with it, were mauled. The d;:,g was later destroyed."

I could go on quoting hundreds of cases where the Alsatian dog has been responsible for injury and damage, but there is no need for me to do so. Can any hon. member point to any other breed of dog against which so many charges of ferocity have been made, and which has killed so many stock, and attacked so many people?

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: I have hundreds and hundreds of cases.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: I admit that other dogs have killed sheep and cattle, especially when they_ have crossed with tJ:le dingo. I also admit that other dogs will still do so but they will not do so to the same exte,',t as the Alsatian.

Recently the Lord Ma-yor of Brisbane, Mr. A. J. Jones, made the public statement that he would do something in respect of Alsatians if the Government only gave him the power. He evidently is only waiting for the Government to pass legislation. Personally, I am not so much concerned about the Alsatians in the city, provided protection is afforded to the grazing areas against Alsatia-ns. The " Courier-Mail " of the 5th August, 1936, contained the following article:-

" CocKCIL MAY DECLARE \VAR ox ALSATIAN DoGs.

" ' Attacks on children by Alsatian dogs in this city are far too frequent,' said the Lord Mayor (Alderman J ones) at yesterday's meeting of the City Council.' He believed that some action should be taken. Very cl"se to his own residence at Eagle Junction recently a small boy had been attacked and injured on the face, and he would probably carry the

{Mr. Morgan.

scars to his grave. The position was a]; too serious. The owner, of course, was not to blame in any way, and immediately he heard of the incident he purchased a, gun and shot the dog

" Alsatian dogs were roamin!?' the streets too frequently, added the Lord Mayor, and in his district he had heard of several cases where grown-lip people had been attacked when they sought to enter the grounds of a house. It was not much use exhibiting a notice stating ' Beware of the dog,' a-nd letting the animal loose. Probably the council should take even more drastic action than it was taking to protect the people, especially children."

There is evidence from the Lord Mayor that Alsatians are doing considerable damage even in this city.

I have endeavoured to deal with this matter as fairly as I possibly can. At the same time I have endeavoured not to lose sight of the importance of the subject. I indicated in my opening remarks that I hope this motion will not be treated on a party basis. I hope every hon. member in this House will treat it as a non-party matter. I gave notice of the motion without consulting my party, and without regard to any feelings its members may have upon it.

The PREMIER: \Ve are not going to make it a party matter either.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: I am pleased to have that assurance from the Premier. Every hon. member will, I hope, speak as he pleases. Then, if the Premier considers something should be done, and his Government do not feel they should take the responsibility, I, as a private member, am prepared to meet those hon. members opp.osite who favour action to restrict the numbers of Alsatian dogs in this State, and thus prevent their spread, and draft a Bill.

The PRE1IIER : The Government policy on all things is to do what they consider best in the publio interests.

Mr. GODFREY M ORGAN: That is all I want. I am prepared to meet and act with a committee from the Government side. and not make it a pa-rty matter. A Bill could then be introduced and the subject dealt with on its merits.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora.) [11.44 a.m.]: I have much pleasure in seconding the motion, because I realise that the time has come when something should be done to ban Alsatian dogs in country districts. I am not prepared to go quite as far as the mover of the resolution, especially as to the damage he alleges is caused by Alsatians.

I know that there is a feeling among hon. members that this subject is essentially a national one, and shoucd, therefore, be dealt with by the Federal Parliament. I do not agree with that view. Legislation should be introduced in Queensland; first, because we have le;s settlement in the great areas comprising the State, and naturally must have grea-ter numbers of marsupials and dii1goes in those unsettled areas than other States. Likewise, there is a greater danger of tlw Alsatian getting to the country districts. I do not altogether agree with the mover of this motion that it should apply to the whole of Queensland.

The PREMIER: And you second the reoolution?


Mr. WALKER: l do not altogether agree \\ ith it.

The PRE'.'IIIER : If you ar~ secondin& a nttli.ion you obviously agree with the motwn.

:\lr. WALKER: I do not altogether agree with everything the mover said.

The PREMIER: In other words, you think the judgment is sound but the reasoning i> faulty.

Mr. WALKER : I do not think ~he w!L.Y the hon. the Premier puts it is qmte fan. In a matter of this description one is allowed a certain amount of latitude. One can support a motion without altogether agreeing with the details. cr:he. fa~t that I had a Bill drafted in 1931 IS mdicatiVe of rny sincerity on this question.

:vt:r. KING : Why didn't you put it through?

:\1r. WALKER: I can explain that. There wore a number of members like the hon. ,;entleman representing metropolitan areas where Al>'atians were bred and sold for large prices and they were not prepared to .support the Bill for fear of losing a few Yotcs.

The Bill I had drafted made provision for the exemption of towns. I b_elieve that persons who are fond of Alsatians should have the right to keep them in a town where the-e would not be a menace. As a dog lover I appreciate the feelings of others who are fond of dogs. I have had dogs all mv life but they are trained and well be-haved: and I do not allow them to stray. The Y ecrongpilly Refuge for Dogs present,; the sorry spectacle of numbers of beauhf~l animals, including Alsatians, being kept m custody for their sale or, fa1lmg that, destruction.

I contend that this is not a Commonweal~h matter but one that vitally concerns this State, ~wing to its sparsely settled conditions.

The PREMIER: Any large dog may becom" a menace.

:\1r. WALKER: Provided he has the <agacity and strength he may be a me~n,cc. There is no doubt that a dog combmmg the intelligence of an Alsatian with his ~trength would, if allowed to run wild, become a greater menace than any othl'l" dog we know of. That was true in the case of the dingo.

The PREMIER: Did the hon. member hear about the man who imported the deerhound to chase the dingoes?

Mr. WALKER: In my opinion all big dogs should be excluded from country areas. I venture to say the crossbr0d dogs li1

Queensland are so big, and possess such destructive instinct, that they are a greater danger than the original dingo. The early dingo relied to a great extent on his cunning. "Many hon. members are too young to have seen that type of dingo at work. In the cattle-raising areas in the coastal districts. where they used to abound, a dingo would circle around a young marsupial or calf until he was tired, and then another dingo would tako his place and so on until the quarry weakened. If the Alsatian crossed with the dingo that cunning would be accentuated in the progeny. I do not think any one would attempt to deny my statEmrent that of all the dogs in Australia none show as great intelligence, cunning, or courage as the Alsatian. At any rate, it would be

wise to prohibit his entry into the country districts until we have definitely proved he is not a menace.

If the Bill that I had drafted had been introduced and passed by Parliament it would have necessitated the sterilisation of only eleven dogs in Queensland. Dogs in towno such as Toowoomba, Ipswich, Gympie, Mary borough, and Brisbane, would have been exempt from its provisions, because there would not have been much danger of their ''going bush.'' In towns and cities it would have been controlled bv the local authorities, and there would not have been any danger of its becoming the menace that it is in the country areas.

There is no need for me to draw the attention of hon. members to the menace that the dingo is to-day. One need only glance through the newspapers to see that bonuses and other rewards for dingo scalps are offered by the various local authorities iu their endeavours to keep down this pest. In the north and south coast lLreas the fal"mer has not been careful enough about the dingo, he is more concerned about the marsupials because it is these that destroy his banana and other crops. These farmers must be educated to regard the dingo as a menace, for if it is allowed to increase in the coastal areas. it will eventually prove a Yery much greater menace to the cattle and sheep-breeding areas than it is. I should prefer the control of the Alsatian made a Government matter than be put undm· the control of the local authorities, but rather than lose the whole loaf I will accept the half and consequently· I support the mover. The members of local authorities have not quite the same independence of action as have members of Parliament. and there is the possibility that a local authority member might be WC'a ncd to the ea use of thP Alsatians by becoming the proud owner of an Alsatian pup. I repeat that the late Government should have been strong enough to carry out our view and ban the Alsatian in the countrv districts. The city areas could ha Ye been" exempted. There is conclusive proof that the Alsatian is getting out of the custody of its owner and " going bush," because those owners arc not taking proper care of them. Hon. m<>mbers r<'presenting country districts also know that the dingo is coming closer to the settlementsin Tewantin one was seen straying in the heart of the settlement-and when the Alsatian mixC's with the dingo, one cannot ea lculate the rc,,ult.

I wish to be fair to the Alsatian. As a dog he is not more prone to bitP a human heing than is any other breed. He is perhaps less prone to do so than the sheep or cattle dog, some of which will bite at any time. In fact, a bite from one of them is su common in the country districts that it does not find its way to the Press as a news item. And when it comes to the killing of sheep we must remember that there were dogs of other breeds that killed sheep before the Alsatian. He is not peculiar in that rcspcct. In the Press we read of dogs killing so many hundreds of sheep in the country districts and it is only right that the matter should be dealt with fairly. but when the Alsatian mates with the dingo the progeny combinE's the cunning of the dingo with the intelligence and other attri · butes of the Alsatian and will be a greater menace in tbe country areas tha'?- the dingo

Mr. Walker·.]


ever was. M.l" objection to the Alsatian is the danger of his crossing with the dingo in the country districts. As a pet I see no objection to him.

For myself I strongly object to " pet dogs." fn Queen street the other day I saw a motor car parked. On the back seat was a fashionably dressed woman and seated beside her were two Alsatians looking out the window. The tail of one was about a foot off the lady's nose. This was neither hvgienio nor becoming and I could not ui1derstand her allowing it. It is bad enough when the pampered pet is a pomeranian or poodle-which reminds me that the most savage dog at the Brisbane show was a poodle. The Alsatian was a nice quiet domesticated animal. But though this is so I repeat that he is a menace when he gets out in the country districts and has the opportunity of mating with the cling<;>. M~·· Speaker, if we had only moved m tlus matter ton years ago, when you spoke from that side of the House and advocated the prohibition of the introduction of this animal to Australia, to-da•i' we should be hearmg ourselves described as public benefactors. l:!nfortunatelv Alsatians -have come into Queensland ·;nd arc becoming a greater menace every day. It is not too late for us to make a sincere effort to keep these dogs out of the cou;>try dist~·icts so that they will not cross w1th the dmgo.

They have been referred !O as sheep _d?gs in some countries, and durmg the stenltsa· tion campaign of four or five years ago propaganda was so great that the word "Alsatian" was abandoned by their defenders and they were called shepherd dogs. In one corner of a pamphlet issued at that time there was a picture of a mob of sheep with an Alsatian dog looking after them, and in the other corner a picture of an Alsatian minding a baby. "'o man has ever seen an Alsatian minding sheep in Queemland. If any man has seen Alsatian dogs playing with babies, it is a disgrace to the mothers who allow them to do so. Can any hon. member tell me of any better dog than the Australian sheep dog? Alsatians have never been used for sheep work. They are too costly to feed. They are only rich men's dogs. \Vhat would be the result if a man had an Alsatian in a district like CharJc. vi !le or Aramac? It would eat " sheep every week, and I do not suppose tho drover would buy that sheep ! What is more. special boots would have to be made for them because they could never walk about that country. In addition, it would be nece&sary to follow them up with a water cart to keep them going. All these things prove that the Alsatian is of no value to the pastoral industry. They arc great, cumber· wme pets, suitable only for the rich man in the metropolitan district. I should no: object if these dogs were kept under control, but they are allowed to roam about. I have given two illustrations of that from my own district.

The Western man likes a small dog, one that has been bred to Australian conditions. In England they have sheep clogs that are very little better than ours. Their coats arc longer because the c]:irnato i" colder. Dogs of a similar type are used in New Zealand, because they are considered to be suited to the climate and the work there. In our hotter climatie we have adopted the ordinary cattle dog and the

[Mr. Walker.

kelpie and sheep dog, because wee haYP recognised, after years of experience, tba: they are most suited to our conditions. It is significant that no Alsatians compete in the sheep dog trials at the Royal !\ational Association annual show in Brisbane. Tlw competitors are small dogs, not great cumbersone animals like the Alsatian. Tlw Alsatians are too slow in heading off a small number of sheep. They may be all right in a mob, but that is not what the drover wants.

There is no doubt that the Alsatian ha> brains. I do not know of any dog of greater sagacit;;, and that is one of my main reasons for advocating that they be kept out of the country districts. The Alsatian really is a wolf, and tho descendant of wolves, as I shall prove later to hon. members. Fifty years ago \Ye nm"or hc·ard of the Alsatian. The roa.oon is that it i" a new type and breeders overseas are ondea · vouring to make money out of it. It is our duty to disregard these breeders. who are getting big prices-up to £10 10s. for a pup-and are therefore interested in proportion. They gave a few dogs away to begin with for advertising purposes, and although that did not get them far it got them far enough to fright"n hon. members. who would not speak their minds because of the few votes they might lose if they did. These people gave "bow wow" balk and other entertainments, and were very genial-the first thing they did was to give the guest an invitation to haYe a drink. (Laughter.) All over Qneensland at the present time we are offering from 5s. to 10s. for the destruction of dingoc,, but these people are selling their pups at from £.3 3F. to £10 10s. each. If these get out into the country the position will probably lwreversed and we shall be offering 'a big fe<' for the destruction of the Alsatian-dingo crossbreds.

Some people may say that they are not yet out in the country. I cannot do better than quote an instance from my own farm not long ago where-as we at first thought -three dingoes were taken in one night. I had a look at the skins, and one measured 6 feet 1 inch from the tip of the nose along the back to the tail. Can any· one tell me that a dingo wns ever so long? It proves that they wore Alsatian cross· breds. They were Alsatian in colour. too, a dark fawn colour with coarse hair, like t1w coat of an Alsatian. If such things happen where will our sheep and paddy calves b•· ., It will not be long before they will begin to attack the bigger cattle and become a real menace. Now is the time to get ·to work and stop them.

It has been said these dogs do not mate with dingoes. Has anybody in this Chamber never seen a ];,itch running round with othPr dogs. Of course all hon. members have, and they know that she favours the bigger dog every time. Can any man tell me that if an Alsatian got out amongst a pack of dingoes. and if the female dingoes happened to bn an accommodating sort the male dingoes would have a chance with the Alsatian? Hon. members know perfectly wflll that. the~e big powerful brutes would dominat£> the pack. When they fight. they do not act like ordinary dogs but go for the neck, and the other aogs would treat them with !l"reat respect. One has to speak plainl;. and eYcryone knows that the progeny of

Control of Alsat-ian Dogs. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Control of Alsat-ian Dogs. 341

that dog would soon be in the happy position to become the father of many crossbreds. (Interruption.)

Mr. SPEAKER : Or-der ! There is too much noise in the Chamber this morning. It is almost impossible to hear the speaker.

Mr. WALKER: I have heard if said that dingoes will not mate with a. tame dog. That is absolute nonsense. In the countn· there are many crossbreds that arc kept as pets. They are fine looking dogs but they are of no earthlv use. and the same thing would apply to 'the Alsatian. If he got out into the country it would be only a question of time before he would be tne father of mo.,t of the crossbred dingoes that wore born, and his progeny would inherit his charteristics.

In 1930, the Secretaries for Agriculture througho-ut Australia. agreed to bring in legislation to deal with the Alsatians, but unfortunately the Queensland Government of that day were unable to oarrv out that intention. As Secretary for Ag~iculture l was unabl\l to introduce a. Bill to deal with Alsatian dogs, and I have very grave doubts whether the present Government will bo able to do so now, but if a mPasure 1s introdueed I trust it will be a non-party one. Let us express our real thoughts on the subject a,nd thus help to formulate the most efficient legislation to deal with those dogs.

I propose to quote a few authorities as to the origin of- the Als_atian dog. They come mostly from Amenca. The first 1s from the " Farmers' Bulletin," issued by the United States of America Department of Agriculture-

" Throughout the world thoro appea,rs to be considerable misconception regarding tho correct name of the Alsatian. At various times an-d places it has been called the Alsatian Sliepherd and vYolf Dog, German Police Dog, Police Dog. and Shepherd Dog. The correct name, however, as applied by its natiYo breed society, is the German Shepherd Dog (Deuhcher Schaferhund). In the Unite-d States the breed speciality organisation has adopted the name ' Shepherd Dog' as officia)."

In the issue of the "Journal of Horeditv '' for April, 1924, in an article on the origin of the Shepherd Dog, by the secretary and treasurer of the Shepherd Dog Club of America (Anne Tracy), the following appears:-

" The German Shepherd Dog has so many appellations that the general public is naturally confused as to its origin. The breed which the American Kennel Club, in 1917, officially designated as the ' Shepherd Dog,' is known in England as the Alsatia,n Wolf Dog and in France, since the war, as the Alsatian Shepherd Dog, while it IS everywhere popularly called a 'Police Dog.'"

The journal referred to above is issued monthly by the American Genetic Association, and included on its council and advisory committees are many of the leading scientists of the United States. This publication is devoted to plant brce.ding, animal breeding, and eugenics. There could not be any greater authority than that. My next quotation comes from the " National Geographic Magazine," which is also recognised

as one of the leading American monthly publications, and is issued by the National Geographic Society. It devoted the whole of the March number in 1919 to the dog, and inter alia, in individual descriptions, dealt with the German Shepherd or Police dog. The following are extracts therefrom:-

" On the continent of Europe there are many kinds of dogs used for gua,rding sheep, but those best known in this country are the German and Belg1an sheep dogs. This is one of the handsomest and most attractive of dogs, and approximates more erosely than 'any other to the really wolf type. Strong and clean of limb , . . gifted with a very high intelligence and a. wonderful memory for what he has been taught, he is a most excellent and useful working dog.

"He is a graceful, powerful dog, with beautiful linos and curves denoting bot i .. strength and spee-d. . . .''

This point is well worth noting-" It is perhaps as well to say here·

that any such active, restless, vigorous, and intelligent animal as this becomes a grave responsibility to its owner, and should be sedulously cared for and kept in control every minute. They become very dangerous when neglected or turned adrift or thrown on their own resources by being lost, and once they form a habit of chicken or sheep killing they become inveterate and persistent in their maraudings and ordinarily must be shot.

"One very beautifu1 dog of this kind was recently shot after repeated ravages which started a rumour of wolves in the region.''

I am afraid that if the Alsatian dog is allowed to roam at large he will use his brains to such an extent that he will become a. menace to the whole community. I should like hon. members to visualise the position in many country districts. There are quit.' a few where areas of country are still m their virgin state, with schools, perhaps. 3 or 4 miles away from centres of settlement. Imagine wha.t a menace the Alsatian dog could become if it was allowed it,; liberty in those districts ! I make bold to say that a crossbreed that combines the pluck and the intelligence of the Alsatian with the low cunning of the dingo will be a definite menace to children in country districts such as those. It is time we exercised rigid control over the Alsatian dogs, allowing the breeder in the city to keep them, but prohibiting their presence in country areas where they a,re of no practical use. . ~he Alsatian is an intelligent dog, and 1t IS hurtful to have to say the things that I am saying, because as a dog owner I ca11 appreciate the affection that the owners of Alsati_ans have for their dogs. But bear m mmd that I have never at any time believed that a dog should be allowed into a house. Its place is in the back yard or away from the house, because it is responsible for many diseases in human l:)eings who fondle it. I regard the dingo as a dog pos"esscd of low c-unning-a low criminal clas., . of animal in comparison with the Alsat1an, but a combination of the two will produce a crossbred that will be a menace not only to our country children but to

Mr. Walker.j

342 Control of Alsatian Dogs. fASSEMBLY.] Control of Alsatian Dogs.

our country industries a.s well. It would be a great mistake if we permitted such a state of affairs to come about.- The menace can be combated and I trust that we shall take the opportunity to do so.

Most of the pests that we have in Australia particularly in this State, are pests that hav~ been imported from overseas, perhaps for ithe purpose of amusement or a hobby. Look cat the menace of the fox. Originally intro· -duced for amusement, he is not only cleaning up _our domestic poultry supplies, but also ki!lmg great numbers of our beautiful native birds, which have been the friends

.. of the farmer. In our district now we cannot $CC a curlew-one of the greatest night workers we had. In your district, Mr. Speaker, you had the bustard, or plain turkey, but the fox has greatly reduced their

.. numbers. He has also caused great havoc ·n.long our coastal areas. Other imported ~)ests are the star:ing, the sparrow, and prickly-pear, all introduced by irresponsible persons. Are we going to allow the Alsatian dog pest to assume such proportions that it will cost this country thousands of pounds?

If no action is taken now we shall find that the payment for scalps of dingoes will have to be increased to cope with the menace. As a matter of fact, that payment has already been increased, but it has not had the desired effect. I remember that when I Wlis Ministeer, a mission station in the Gulf district, controlled by missionaries for the benefit of our aborigines, bred so many dingoes and sent their sca)ps to local authorities that it broke th·e local authority. (Laughter.) That conclusively proves that there is a class of men who are prepared to exploit the posts that menace our country, provided they got some payment for it. We should not sit idly by and allow any increase in the number of our dingoes. As the hon. member who moved the motion said, the dingo pest is a very expensive one to our settlers, a.nd we should do what is in our power to minimise that cost bv eliminating the Alsatian, if possible. '

Mr. T. L. WILLIAMS (Port Curtis) [12.13 p.m.]: At the outset I desire to congratulate the mover for the amount of work he has devoted to his subject, and the quantity of matter he has brought forward in support of his motion. If the biography of the hon. member's life is ever written, he wE! be given full credit for two slogans for which he is responsible. One is, " Back to the horse," and the other " Down with the Alsatian."

I should be quite prepa.red to support the motion if the mover amended it to read-

" That the Local Authorities Act be amended by the insertion of a •<.ection making owners of Alsatian dogs responsible for the safety and custody of such animals."

If the hon. member for Dalby had moved a motion along those lines he would have received more support for it than he is likely 1 o get for his,

I am a lover of dogs like most people who have a family, but I do not own an Alsatian or belong to a kennel club and therefore ha \'e nothing to lose or gain. As a repre· >r•ntativc of a country district, I claim that the hcin. member's assertion that the Alsatian and dingo are crossing to such a.n extent as to cause the destruction of animal life he indicated, has not been proved. The hon.

[.Mr. Walker.

member has not satisf10d me or I should b0 inclined to support his motion. vVhen h~ can do so, probably I will support it. The hon. member for Dalby is qmte aware that when cattle dogs •· go bush," mingle with the dingoes and cross with them, they are just as severe in their depredations on stock, both young and middle-aged, as the dingo, and quite as ferocious as the cross between the dingo a.nd Alsatian is likely to be. The hon. member knows the progeny of these crosses have proved just as cunning and destructive.

Mr. GoDFREY MORGAN: I know they are severe, but they are not as severe as a.n Alsatian cross.

Mr. T. L. WILLIAMS: I think thev are. and in tho past they have proved just as destructive as it is alleged the progeny from the dingo-Alsatian cross would be. The alleged savage qualities of the Alsatia.n can be discounted to a certain extent. Cases have been reported by people of children and even adults being attacked and cattle destroyed by this breed; but because a few of a breed act S<tvagely and destructively a general condemnation of the Alsatian is not jll'>tified. Fox t<>rriers and cattle dogs have 11lso been known to attack children and grown-up people. I have been attacked by dogs of those breeds, but I would not con· demn the whole breed on that account. I agree there is a danger that dogs tha.t are taken to the country districts by travel· ling showmen and campers for then protec· tion may run loose and mate with the wi!d dog. If a section such as I suggested was inserted in the Act at an early date, making the owners of Alsatian dogs responsible for their safe custody, it would solve the problem.

I listened carefulJy to the remarks of the hon. member for Cooroora, who seconded the motion, and found that his arguments were framed on the same lines as those of the mover. I believe that the hon. member has always been opposed to the Al>atian dog. There was an occasion when he could have introduced a measure to combat this alleged evil, but he did not do so, because, he says, influences were brought to bear on his Governm;:mt, and he was unable to force the issue.

I have some correspondence that I shall read that is in opposition to the arguments put forward by the two previous speakers on this motion. Tho first letter comes from " Ingio," in the Dirranbandi district, and was written by Mr. C. W. Keen, who until r<'cently was a member of the United Graziers' Association, and resigned frorn it on account of its attitude towards the Alsatian. He is the owner of a station pro· pert:; comprising aLout 50,000 acres, carrying between 10,000 and 15.000 sheep. The letter reads- ·

" Speaking as a grazier, I ha.ve owned two Alsatians. I have had one over two yeMs, and the other is about five years old now, so that I can, with some con· fidonce. speak on the breed from a grazier's point of view.

"Both these dogs have worked in the yard with sheep, and I find them extra handy in the yard, and so far as biting sheep is concerned, I do not think any grazier could make either of them attack sheep.

" As for their roving habits, both these dogs have never made a.ny attempt to


roam, and I will defy any neighbour adjoining me to say that these dogs have ever been found roving, either on my property or on theirs.

., Any dog, irrespective of breed, if kept on the chain for a cor.siderable amount of time, may turn savage, but there seems to be no real reason why the Alsatian should be singled out.

" There would be less danger, in my opinion, of the Alsatian crossing with the dingo, than any other dog, because they are never satisfied unless they are near their masters, and so far as their trustworthiness among children, or any small animals, lambs, or pets, is concerned, my dogs have never shown any desire whatsoever to be other than kind to them, and to play with and protect them."

Mr. MAll ER: Whom did he write that to?

Mr. T. L. WILLIAMS: That is a letter forwarded to the Secretary for Public Lands, of which I have >t copy. And I did not get rny copy from the hon. gcntlemaP, a!Lhough he is prepared to support the contentions in it.

Here is another letter dated from Urana. ~~e-~v South \Vales, .and signed by ~John C. Swannell before a Justice of the Peace. It rPads-

" Your letter of the 16th instant" to hand. I wish to state I am a grazier in the U ran a district, and as the owner of an Alsatian dog, I cannot speak other than favourably of them. I ha vo had a life·long experience with dogs, especially sheep dogs, and I have never had a better alJ.round worker than mv Alsatian. I haYe had four years' experiPnce with thcAlsatian, and have never kno~IVll ll to molest a sheep, while its intelligpn,·c I~ much abovB the ordinary.

" \Yhen drafting sheep, it is an """'" matter to do .it alone with thio dog. af' it is an excellent forcer, but neYer bites a sheep, and with an attachment to the gate, and a strap on both sidP'. she will open and cloee the gate inl" the forcing pen as directed.

"Also, when out in the parldock ami having occasion to leave my horse with the bridle reins hanging (on the plains there is not always a tree convenient for a hitching post) the dog will go to the horse, catch hold of the reins, and lead it back to me. It will do almo-t anything· in ihe way of fetching and carrying. You will readilv perceive that a dog ot this abilit} is invaluable to a man on the land where a good dog is his b0st friend

"I might also mention that I havo never known this dog to bitB or in any way to molest anyone. On the contrar}, it is most friendly. I have known many breeds of dog to molest sheep. including the kelpie, but no one would think of banning the kelpie on account or imlatcd cases such as these."

This in a measure refutes the arguments put forward by hon members oppositf' Of course they are not compelled to believe such statements, but they have bean made and the House is entitled to hear both aspects of the question.

Finally I desire to quote from the compre· honsivo l'Oport of Dr. A. \V. N. RobcrtsoH mado to the Federal Director of Health, Dr. Cumpston. Dr. Robertson said-

"Any dog may attack a man or a sheep, since there are savage representatives in every breed, but I can see no reason why Alsatians should be singled out as being vicious or sheep killers."

Dr. Robertson attached to his report a summary of the cases for and against tlw Alsatian and his eonclusions are favourable to the Alsatian, especially in comparison with other breeds. 'l'hey are-

"Any dog may on occasion attack a man, >tnd although many cases of attack by Alsatians arc reported m tho English newspapers, in several of them it is proved that the dog was not an Alsatian.

" Man;: cases are reported of tho Alsatian's love for children. The chargu that there is wolf blood in the dog is n•)t supported, and in Gennany it has been bred on stud book lines for the lust twenty-seven years, so that even if pr•·· sent it would have boon eliminated. The contention that the progeny of t],,• wolf and the Alsatian is sterile is pro babiy correct.

"Against the cases of Alsatians attacking sheep are the statements of pastoralists that they take the dog among she0p without fear. Any dog might attack sheep and there is no worse offender in this respect that the fox terrier and thn crossbred sheep dog. It is safe to say that some sheep are killed every day by dogs other than Alsatians.

" The cross between the Alsatian and the dingo would be no more dangerous than the cross with another large breed.

" In olden days the Alsatian was used to keep wolves from the flocks, and I think it would be very dangerous to dingoes.

"The Alsatian is a "home-loving dog and is not given to wandering and would be less likelv to cross than anv otlwr breed." · ·

Before resuming my seat I repeat that l have no Alsatian dog, and I am not connected with any breeders' or kennel club of any sort. and that in view of the argument• for and against the Alsatian, extending over a considerable period but intensified during the past two or three months, I do 11ot feel disposed to support the motion. I know that other hon. members will disagree with me, but I feel sure that something along the lines I suggest might alleviate the evil and help in solving the problem that confronts the House.

Mr. BRASSINGTON (Fortitude Valley) [12.25 p.m.]: I regret that the matter chosen for discussion on this, the first Private Members' Day of the session, is not quite up to the usnal standard. I believe that Parliament, as an institution, should be as democratic as possible. I believe' also that over a long period the rights of private members have been whittled awav to some extent, and so when we do have 'an oppor· tunitv to discuss the matters that private members can bring forward it is the dut:,of hon. members to raise questions that "'r() of paramount public importance, questions

Mr. Brassington.]


that will justify the continuation of PrivaLo Members' Day. The question submitted for our consideration. although of some import'MlCc, is not an outstanding public issue. It .'JS not to be compared with questions that ·nave been discussed in this Assembly on >imilar days in the past. Consequently, I raise the point that if we do not choose the be't and most important questions for ·-discussion we cannot grumble if the Government show a desire to use this dav for the ·<::onsideration of Government busines~ of more importance.

I have listened to the arguments for and against the Alsatian this morning. and one is bound to admit that a case cari be made from both points of view. After hearing those arguments, I am inclined to support rhe resolution moved by the hon. member for Dalby. It is not extreme, it is not harsh. It is a resolution tempered by co1nn1on sense, one that in no 'vay ain1s at the extinction of the Aloo.tian in Queensland. There must be some form of control, and the resolution moved by the hon. member does aim at sensible control in districts w·h<:'re it is very necessary.

T am inclined to believe that there is some dang·cr in allowing the Alsatian to go 11ncheclwd. I cannot altogether agree with the opinion of the hon. member for Port Curtis that there is no danger of the Alsatians crossing with the native dog. I believe, from experience and observation. that thoro is considerable clanger in that direction. When one realises that other l:Jreeds, such as the Russian wolf hound and the boar hound do cross with the native dog, it is r0asonable to assume that the Alsatian, if allowed to g-o wild. will do likewise. In that case we shall have a more powerful and dangerous dog to de a I with than the native dog.

I remember reading in the Press a few months ago a report of a dingo hunt on the border of Victoria and Now South \Vales. After two or three years of intensive effort to trap a very troublesome dog, it was caught. and found to be a cross betwen a Russian wolf hound and a native dog. That dog was responsible for the destruction of "'any hundreds of sheep in the district. If that can happen with one breed, it is reasonabltl to assume that the Alsatian. if given the opportunity, will cross with the native dog. and make for us a greater and graver problem than that which confronts us to-day. I favour a system of control, and I believe the resolution moved by the hon. member for Dalby opens up the way to achieve it.

Many opinions have been expressed as to the Alsatian and its usefulness as a domestic animal. I should term the Alsatian an extremely intelligent dog, possessing great strength but a very uncertain temper. At one time it may be quite reasonable and tame. and at another time become aroused and be a danger to human beings. I have noticed the dogs from time to time on the ,trect, and I am forced to the conclusion that to allow them to run unmuzzled and unattended is to invite considerable risk and possibly damage to women and children, and oven to men. That possibility might \\·ell be investigated without severity on !he dog as a domestic animal, and an endeavour made to provide for its muzzling when it is at large and might become a danger to the people in public thoroughfares.

[Mr. Brassington.

Nor can we overlook the rights of those people who believe that this dog is not a menace. Perhaps many of us forget the existence of an important industry in this State. the breeding of dogs and the activities that follow on it. I have had the pleasure of opening a number of dog shows within recent months and from what I have seen, I beliC\·e we must be very careful be foro we do anything that would di~eourage a very important industry in this State. There are hundreds of people who are deeply interested in the breeding of clogs, to whom clog shows and the exhibiting of dogs is more than a fancy, and when it comes to the question of dog control we should take into consideration their opinions and outlook and make proper provision for them.

The resolution moved by the hon. member for Dalbv is sound and reasonable and is designed -with the best of intentions to meet the situation in the various districts throughout the State. Is anyone better entitled to express an opinion than the local authority in a district where these dogs might become a menace. and to judge the evils that might result from unrestricted control? Is anyone better fitted to judge public interest at all times and accordingly to lay clown a policy to meet a given situation: I think it is a sound argument that has been advanced by the hon. member and if we could reach agreement, any danger that n1ay cxjst in the West from Alsatians running wild and crossing with the native dog would be entirPly removcn. and at the same time people in the city who have a fancy for these dogs and find it profitable to breed them. would retain the opportunity to do so. The interests of everyone would thus be protected.

Last, but not least, the apologists for the Alsatians are verv often extreme in their arguments, but we must not overlook the very tragic history of this State relating to pests. and the enormous effort and expenditure of public money by GovPrnments that have heel! nccessarv from tirn(' to time to meet the ravages of those pests and stamp them out so that this State mig·ht proc-ress and be a fruitful field for the labours of its people.

In years gone by prickly-pear, various types of burrs, rabbits, .and other animal and vegetable pests were imported into this country, presumably for some useful or domestic purpose, but through lack of control and alertness these so-called harmless plants and animals spread to such an extent that they became grave problems for Governments and the people. In the light of that experience-the disadvantag-e to the State, and the cost to Governments-the time has arrived when we should consider some form of control over the Alsatian dog. But we should not overlook his good points. Let us not do him an injustice, but let us lay down a basis for a policy designed to protect the interests of the people without causing serious injury to the animal concerned.

The resolution moved by the hon. member for Dalby is sound and sensible. It is not aimed at the extermination of the Alsatian hut has the object of bringing about its control in districts where that control is most necessary.

Central of Alsatian Dogs. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Control of Alsatian Dogs. 345

Mr. BELL (Stanlcy) [12.36 p.m.]: I rise to support the motion. It was very encouraging to hear the remarks by the hon. member for Fortitude Valley, who struck tt

most important note when he suggested that the menace should be nipped in the bud so that it would not spread and cause Governments to incur very heavy expenditure in its control or abolition. It is only a few years ago that the tiger pear was grown in a domestic garden in New South Wales and, perhaps, out of consideration for the gardener, was not destroyed because it might have caused ill feeling. It was allowed to spread and it threatens to become a very grave menace to Queensland and Australia. I venture to say that if the Alsatian is allowed to run at largo he will becon1o a serious menace, too.

The hon. member for Port Curtis pointed out that a member of the United Graziers' Association had resigned because of the attitude taken up by the association in connection with the control or the extermination of the Alsatian. I am in accord with what he said relating to those two dogs that are living in the lap of luxury-becausf'' of that very fact we have nothing to fear in their case-but in travelling through country districts one notices that the Alsatian dogs are rnorP or loss poverty-stricken, and jt is safe to as"'tme that if they are brought up in that way they will adopt some other means of living than those to which they are limited at present. vVe nmBt consider this problem broadly and decide to do what is best in the interests of the pastoral industry. If the motion is carried it will give local authorities the right to exercise control over a potential menace. Sooner or later that will have to be done. vVhy not ;1ip the menace in the bud? Why not do 1t now?

The hon. member for Dalby has pointed out convincingly that the Alsatian dog is a

-menace not only to stock, but also to human beings. If people in big centres like Brisbane want to k0•·p these dogs, that is a matter for them; we ask that in country districts they br' controlled. I hope that the Government will formulate a policv in consonance with the sentiments exp~essed so ablv by the hon. member for Fortitud•: Valley.

I know that hon. members will point out the good work and fine points of Alsatians, but when we analyse the question along broader lines we must admit that it is ridiculous to claim that the Alsatian is a sheep dog. I admit that when sheep are in a confined area with an Alsatian they will run through a gate. Some years ago when there was an ag-itation to ban _:\lsatians I saw a photograph in the " Sydnev Mail " of an Alsatian working a mob of sheep. It was an excellent picture, but the Alsatian was interPsted in everything else but the work it was supposed to be doing. If that Alsatian had been a sheep dog- he would have been concentrating on the movPment of everv sheep, as the sheep dog is known to d~. The Alsatian in the picture was looking dejectedly down the valley !

The House would be wise to pass the motion. Personally, I do not take exception to the Aleatian as a dog any morP than to any other dog. But we must all admit that it has done and is capable of

doing a good deal of damage to stock and sheep because of its size and courage. 1 know personally of cases where 6 feet fences have been erected to keep out tht:' dingo, but I am sure lhey will be hut a small obstacle for Alsatians to negotiate. I hope that the House will look on this question broadly and adopt the motion. I support it, not in any spirit of antagonism to the Alsatian but on the broad principle that Parliament, in the performance of its responsibility for caring for tho welfare of the peoplt'. should do something to control a pest that I feel sure is developing and will make itself felt in the future.

Mr. FOLEY (~Yo,.manby) [12.43 I>. m.]: If this question is impartially analysed one must arrive at the conclusion that much of the antagonism to the Alsatian has resulted from undue publicity given to tlJL' misdeed" of a few dogs of that breed within the last few years. Long before the A.lsatian was introduced into Australia almost every typ<' of dorncsticatcd dog kno\rll to us was guilt.v of all the misdeeds now attrilmtPd to thl' former. \V e have had reports of ferocity in the nn·ious strains of cattle dog, the common mongrel, and the sheep dog cross. They have all been responsible in the cattl" and sheep districts for taking toll of animal life. I agree to a certain Pxtent with the motive behind the motion, which suggests some measure of control. but I would not go so far as it intends. The better method would be to confer the necessary power on local authorities to deal with all types of dogs that ar<' found to be a menace. Then Parliament. instead of banning a particular breed of dog· from any district or ordering sterilisation, would give to the local authoritv in the district where such a menace existed 'the power to legislate to meet the eircnmstances of its own area. That. in my opinion, would be the most inteiiil\'ent way to deal with this question. Cortainlv it is preferable to giving the local authoritie> power to deal with one type of dog alone.

The heredity of this dog has been the subject of much discussion. From information I have gleaned in a brief study of it, I find there are two types of Alsatian in existence. one of them originating from a wolf cro,-s. Many hundreds of years ago a dog was crossed with a wolf for the specific purpose of introducing into the domestic animal a definite characteristic; but, as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Port Curtis, such characteristics have long ago boon bred out of the Alsatian as a result of line breeding over a period of years. It is known that in some cases, when two distinct species are crossed, a hybrid is produced that is sterile.

Mr. GoDFREY MoRGAN : The strong<'st prevails.

Mr. FOLEY: Not neceHSarily. There is a definite law of heredity known as Mendel's law. It operates in both vegetable and animal life. In the first cross the progeny inherits half the characteristics of the parents, but before one can develop the full characteristics of either of the parents at least four generations must have lived. The progeny resulting from a cross between an Alsatian and a dingo would need to be crossed back with one of the parents, and the progeny of that second cross would then

Mr. F'oley.]


possess only three-fourths of the characteristics of that parent. One would need to continue breeding for another generation before one produced an animal with seven-eighths of the characteristics of the parent. That is .a law that has been proved over and over again by scientists in both animal and vegetable life. Therefore, it is not fair for the layman to assume from the appearance of the Alsatian that it may "go bush," and cross with the dingo and produce a superintelligent animal that will defy the efforts of the stockowner to combat it, and become a grave menace to the community. I do not consider the result of such a cross would prove any more dangerous than a cross between a wolfhound or a dog of any other hrge savage type and the dingo.

Practically every State in the Commonwealth, except Tasmania and Queensland, has dealt with this question. Most of them have gone so far as to tax the Alsatian but in no case has a State decided to ba'n or sterilise it.

Mr. GODFREY MoRGAN : In \V estern Australia they have.

Mr. FOLEY: They m.a.y have done it in the country districts in that State. I consider a measure of control is necessary if we are to a-dopt the " safety-first " attitude; but I do not consider it necessary to go so far as the motion before the House.

Evidence has been submitted this morning that to .a certain extent indicates that the Alsatian has certain characteristics that will make it a very useful animal to Queensland, provided it is controlled. First of course the prejudice against it must b~ overcome: :r'he hon. member for Port Curtis gave the mstance of a Mr. Keen in the Dirranbandi district, who, after hearing the arguments against the Alsatian breed, decided to try one out. He has definitely proved that this dog, as a stock worker, is much superior to the average sheep dog in use to-day.

0PPORITIOX ME;riBERS : It is not.

Mr. FOLEY: According to that stock-owner it is and we must at least accept the word of a man who has done practical work w1th the dog. He knows what he is talkinuabout. 'l'he man who has not experimented with it or used it for this work is not in a position to giYe an opinion.

Mr. MAHERO: Th0 weight of evidence is against you.

Mr. FOLEY: We have as evidence his letter to the Secretary for Public 1,and'o He h~s had two dogs, one of them over a perwd of five years. He found them to be suitable workers with stock and on no occasion has he found them to wander or attempt to kill. A dog of any strain may develop characteristics different from tl:osCJ of its parents or the average of the bre0d. even to killing. The collie is looked upon as a most docile species, but in England and f?cotland where it is used as a shepherd d<;>g It has bee~ known to develop into a k1ller. Immediately a collie does this it is destroyed, and there is no attemp: to breed from that animal. The whole point m regard to the Alsatian appears to be in the general temperament of the br0c.d. I know men who are owners of Alsatian dogs. Ouc man owns two animals, of whiclt one has to be always chained up. It is

[ !Vh·. F aley.

the largest specimen of its breed that I have seen, and no ordinary chain will hold it. Jf that dog was allowed to run loose it 11 ould be a menace to the community, but the other is as docile as any collie or any other type I know. In any breed of dog there are individual animals that possess a temperament that causes them to be a men<tce to the community. In the Charters Towers district there is a strain of cattle dog that is just as strong and powerful as the Alsatian. I have seen dogs of that strain take an ordinary cattle dog and virtu':lly; k~ll . it with one shake. Notwithstandmg this Its prototypes possess a docile temperament.

Much unwarranted prejudice has been displaved in this matter. Many persons who have condemned the Alsatian took the various incidents on which they based their attitude at their face value. To me it appears that with proper control there is no danger th~t the Alsatian will become a menace. But there is every likelihood of its being of ~m·vice to stockowners and police as well as giving pleasure to those who like to have a watchdog and pet. I know of a ca~e in Springsure where the officer m charge of the police station was able with the aid of his Alsatian dog to trace stolen property within an hour and a-half of the theft. Otherwise that property would never have been found.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: \Vhat was stol8n 1

A leg of meat 7 Mr. FOLEY: No. This was a case of

stolen clothing. With the help of his Alsatian doo- the police officer was able to apprehe,;,'d the thief and recover the stolen property within an hour and a-ha}£ of the commission of the crime. That pohce officer is prepared to demonstrate the possibilities of the Alsatian to anyone at any time. Then there is the case of Sergeant Todd who was at St. Lawrence, and is now in Brisbane. He had two Alsatians specially trained for police work, and two of the cleverest dogs I have ever seen. These men know, as the result of having owned Alsatians and observed their habits day after day that with proper oontrol there is no danger of their becoming a menace to the community.

I agree with the hon. member for Dalliy that power should be given to the local authorities to apply the principle of "safety first " in order to remove any fear that these dogs will become a source of danger to stockowners and others in country districts. We have ample evidence that, when given 'the opportunity, these dogs 1HJ:VC proved that they can render good serv10e to stockowners.

Mr. Moom:: \Vhere is the ample evidence?

Mr. FOLEY: There is the case of Mr. Swanfelt. a big station owner in New South Wales. He demonstrated what they could do at the Royal National Association Exhibition at Adelaide. Prejudice in that city was so great that stockowners would not let him use their sheep for the demonstration. He bought his own sheep and proved to the people of Adelaide that if given a trial the Alsatian dog could be of service to stockowners.

At 2 p.m., Tn accordance 1cith S!'ssional Order, the

House J>rorerdol z.cit!t aorer·llmcnt business.

Land Acts [10 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 347

II\CO:ME TAX ASSESSME~T BILL. SECOXD READING-ORDER FOR DISCHARGE FROM

BusiNESS-PAPER.

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith. Markay): I move-

" That the Order of the Day-Inconw Tax Assessment Bill: Second Reading~be discharged from the business-paper."

Qne>tion put and passed

\YOOL DRAFT ALLOW ANOE ABOLITION BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Bm·coo): I move-

" 'l'hat the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirableness of introducinQ: a Bill to make unlawful the mercantile- custom commonlv known as the 'Wool Draft Allowance;• and for other purposes."

Question put and passed.

DAIRY PRODUCTS STADILISATION ACT OF 1933 COXTII\UATIOI\ BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND S'l'OCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo): I move-

" That the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirableness of introducing a Bill to continue the operation of 'The Dairy Products Stabilisation Act of 1933' (as amended by Orders in Council)."

Question put and passed.

LAI\D ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) [2.3 p.m.]: I move-~

" That the Bill bo now read a second time.''

During the initiation in Committee of this Bill I explained the main principles fully, but judging by the comments of the Opposition the provision as to single and double rental periods of prickly-pear land was not exactly understood. For the benefit of hon. members opposite, I will devote my second reading speech to that part of the Bill. There was evidently a fear in the minds of members of the Opposition, which probably has been dispelled since they have seen the Bill, that existing- tenures will be interfered with. The Bill merely meets the position of existing leases, as their present reassessment period expires. I want to reiterate that that period is the period in the existing contract between the holder of the land and the Government. The Land Court will assess the rentals based on the usual land tenures, which hon: members will realise is the only way in which i1 can be done. It stands to reason that when that period arrives the Land Court will find that the value of the land has increased--because, of course, of the work of the cactoblastis-but the assessment will be made on

the evidence before the court. \Vhen those lands were opened years ago, conditions were very different from those of to-day. The evidence will show how much that land has increased in valu". It is safe to assume that the valuations will be increased. If this Bill had not been introduced tlw increased valnations would have to stand for fourteen years instead of being reassessed every seven years (as is now proposed) 'n C?~mon with other land tenures. If proVISIOn was not made for the reassessment of prickly-pear land values every seven year, there would be the usual howl that the Government were doing something unfair, but in this case, as in all other matters affecting them, the Government are taking care of the man on the land. I have already pointed out during the consideration of other Bills this session that the man on the land is a customer of the Government, anrl we are prepared to take care of him by giving him every reasonable protection and ~ealising that the Land Court will probably mcreasc the value of prickly-pear lands we have decided that the land shall be subject to reassessment every seven years like land held under other tenures. Again I say that if this was not done there would certainly be a growl against tho Governmem and hon. members representing prickly-pear electorates would be the first to point out this injustice to prickly-pear landholders and to stress the disadvantage under which they laboured in comparison with other Crown tenants. There would certainly he some justification for their complaint anr! in order to remove this anomaly the G~vernment have decided to place ail landholdcrs on the same conditions. VVe have taken the long-range view.

It is only natural when the land laws arc to be amended that I should ask my officers to make a complete survey of them and to tell me what in their opinion should be done. These inquiries were set afoot not only at head office, but also in countrv offices, and the principle that I am discussing was one of the matters submitted to nw for attention. It was given consideration by the Government and they decided tha' it should be given legislative· sanction. Th<; object o£ the Bill is to extend relief to CrowH tenants, in which the holder of prickly-pear land will share.

I ;;:m sorry that the hon. member for Dalby is not in his place because he made special reference to this matter and suggested that the Government were repudiating a contract entered into with prickly-pear landholders. He went on to mention that he and hi.s family held a considerable area of countr'' under the prickly-pear tenure and complained that the Bill would deprive him of the right to tho benefit of his contractual obligations entered into with past Governments in connection with that tenure. I do not say that he did it deliberately, but he did misrepresent tho matter and he di<l mislearl and as he has introduced the subject of his own volition I will reply to it. I had investigations made into the matter and I ascertained that the whole of the land in which he is interested is held under freeholding tenure, with which this Bill doe; not deal in any way. The Government have no control over freeholding tenures, and nothing whatever to do with them, thereforo, this Bill could not interfprc with tit•, land held by that hon. member. He wa<

Hon. P. Pease.]

348 Land Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

deliberately misleading this House and the people outside.

:\'lr. EDWARDS: You misunderstood him.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I did not misunderstand him at all. Hr• was deliberately misleading the people outside when he referred to his own case and expressed fear of what would happen because !10 knew that the whole of his land was held undPr freehold tPnures and that the Bill co<1ld not interfere with him. He also mentionecl that Iris family held prickly-pear land. I have no desire to enter into per'onal matters, but as they were deliberately introduced hy the hon. member I must reply to thorn because what he said was wrong. He said that some of his familv held land under the prickly-pear tenure, which is not ••xactly a freclJOlding tenure. That is so in ono instance but in that case one of his fn.milv has an area of land that will be subjc<·t to t·cappraisement from 1st October, 1948, and I want to tell the hon. member and this House that that contract will be honoured, that it will not be disturbed, and that the land will not be reassessed until that date. It is just as well that members should realise the whole position and that they should know what tenures will be affected by the Bill.

The main tenures that are subject to periodic reappraisements for freeholding purposes are agricultural farm and pricklypear selection tenures, which provide for a purchasing price payable over a term of ~'ears. The periods are as follows: -Perp<'tual leases. fifteen years; grazing selections, seven years; and pastoral leases. ten yC'ars. 'Vhen the Prickly-pear Land Commission was instituted it was decided that in view of the heavy obligations in regard to pear clearing· that rested on each Crown tenant, the purchasing price or rent should be readjusted so that he would ha:ve a reasonable chance of performing them. For that reason also it was considered advisable. t0 <louble the period during whieh the rf,duced valuation would remain in force. Hon. rn<'mber's can see how we have taken eare of the prickly-pear landholder in the past. The Government of the day, knowmg that values would be low, decided with the Land Administration J3oard to give them also double the usual period at those low rcntals. That gave them some compensation for the arduous work they did, to which hon. members opposite have' referred. Now that we n•alise that values will be increased, not b:v the Land Administration Board but by the court, we a re affording the prickly-;war tenant every protection by bringing him into line 1vith other tenants s•) that when the increase takes place it will only operate for the usual period and not for the double· period originally fixed for the pear landholder. After hon. members have examined this Bill they will realise t.hat that will be a very fair thing to do. The eactoblastis cactorum has done its work very well and faithfully, hut now the owners of these a roas, w hi eh ha vc boon cleared virtually to the extent of 100 per cent., will enjoy the same conditions as every other land settler in the State. 'Vhen the present periods 0xpire the Land Court will rea·;scss. hut we have no intention what,,\-f'l" of interfering with the current periods. The assessrnenls will bP made when the,· expire, that is. the periods under the contract made bebve,on the Crown and the tenauts. \Ye

[lion. P. Pease.

arc not interfering in any way with them. The only thing we are doing is to give each tenant relief by placing him on the same basis as other landowners. The Land Court will reassess the rents on the basis of what an experienced person would be willing ~o o·ive for such land. The Land Court will ;;ot have any regard to the existing low ;cnts, V"hich wore fixed because of the prrcklypear obligations, which, of course, no longer Pxist. It is reasonable to assume that the rents of prickly-pear country, when reassessed. will be increased from their present verv low rates but a double rental period ho;n that rea;sessment would be a handicap and not an advantage to a Crown tenant. Tf the rC'nts were increased and had to remain in force, thirty, fourteen, or twenty years, as the case might be. the. Crown tenants would not be able so qurckly to obtain a reassessment if there wC'ro droughts, slumps in prices, or falls in the valw; of their products, but would ha:ve to contmue to pay the rents fixed by the Land C•;mrt at the expiration of the current perwds without the opportunity of any readjustment for the double period. I think, under those circumstances, the hon. member for Dalby would be one of the first to complain.

There is reallv very little else in the Bill that I did n'ot deal with on the initiation stage. The whole object of the Bill is to give certain relief to people who_ are deserving of it, in this instance, the pricklypear tenants.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) [2.15 p.m_.]: I do not know how to take the explanatiOn of the Minister. He put a different construction on the clauses referring to rental reassessment of prickly-pear leases from that he gave when he introduced the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No, I did not.

Mr. MAHER: Am I to understand that the lease will be fully respected.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Yes, the terms.

Mr. MAHER: The terms and conditions as set out in the existing lease will be fully respected? There will be no reappraisement during the period of the existing lease?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Until the time falls due.

Mr. MAHER: If that is the case it puts a different construction on the Bill entirely. What I understand from the hon. Minister is this: That if the holder of a prickly-pear lease has a period of ~wenty years to ~un from this date there will be no reappraisement during that period of twenty years.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No reappraisement till the time falls duo under the existing contract.

Mr. MAHER: The lease is the contract. That alters my view of the matter. The impression I gained as a result . '?f. ~ho remarks of the Minister during the mitiatwn of this Bill was that when it hecame law it would be possible for the Crown, irrespective of the contract entered into between the Crown and the tenant, to shorten the period of reappraisement of rent.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I never said that.

Mr. MAHER: That was the impression conveyed to me by the remarks of the hon. gentleman. Members on this side of the House wore much concerned as a result of

Land Acts [10 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 349

that impression. because we felt that such a condition would be tantamount, as the hon. member for Dalby said, to repudiation, and would provide a parallel to the case of the pastoral leases in 1921. I am very pleased indeed to have the assurance from the Minister that there will be no interference whatever with the contract entered into between the Crown and the lessees of pricklypear lands.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I said in my initiatory speech that Labour Governments never repudiate any existing agreement.

"11r. MAHER: In view of the assurance of the Minister the Bill will not be the cause of much objection from this side of the House.

I wish to make a few remarks in regard to the principle involved in the proposal dealing with developmental conditions-in pastoral leases or grazing selection tenures. The Minister said that where experience had proved that the conditions were irksome to the lessees, and they were finding it difficult to fulfil the requirements of the leases, rather than allow them to forfeit the holdings the Minister would be prepared to tako a broad view, and give these men eYery opportunity to obtain an extension of the lease or other assistance. There is nothing wrong with that principle. Any requests by men on pastoral lease holdings and grazing selections, particularly those 'ituated in remote and inaccessible parts of the State where rainfall is sparse and conditions generally .are unattractive, should be sympathetically considered by th£> department. There is only this factor to be considered-that the lessees of developmental holdings received special concessions in 1931.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : They only received what they were entitled to.

Mr. MAHER: Yes, they received what they were entitled to. I am not contesting that at all. But care should be exercised in a matter of this kind to ensure that thE' closer settlement aspect of the matter is not overlooked. I believe that some special leases and developmental holdings that were accorded special treatment during the depres. sion period of 1931 arc so located that any attempt to cut them up into blocks might result in the opening of areas that would be too small to provide a living for a. settler. But if there are areas where these concessions were granted, and where closer settlement is desirable, it should be the aim of the Government not to extend the leas£>s, in the face of the requirements of land settlement. There is a tremendous demand for land to-day. A real land hunger exists in the State, and though I am not one of those who think that the large areas in the far West, where the rainfall is poor, should be cut up into unpayable small areas, nevertheless regard must be had to the needs of men who want land, and thus I say that if cases. are involved here wher,e these special concessions wero granted rn a period of depression the Minister should exercise care to see that the leasce are not extended unduly iCJ those areas where there is a demand for land. He should not extend the leases without taking into account the very great need for closer settlement that exists in the State. That is a very important point. 'l'o those very special · cases that received special consideration in 1931 1 do

not begrudge the favourable conditions that the Minister intends to give. In 1931 the help was l:)adly needed, and the conditions in the industry have not improved to such an extent meanwhile that help is not needed to-day. It undoubtedly is. I wish such lessees every good fortu1_1e in their dealings with the Minister, but with the proviso tlmt I emphasised, that we must not overlook the need of those men who want land to-day. In areas where land can be resumed tor closer settlement purposes the favourable treatment provided in the Bill must not be used to the detriment of those people who want to get areas of land for themselves or their families.

I take it that the clauses of the Bil! dealing with irrigation apply particularly to the Da wson V alley irrigation area.

The SECRE'rARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Yes, Mr. MAHER: At this moment it is

appropriate to point out that when the Irrigation Bill of 1922 was befo.re the House it was said tha.t by the expenditure of the money that had been allocated for irrigation purposes in that area a new province would be added to the State. It is not merely interesting, it is tragic, to read the reports of the royal commission of 1933 which said-

" The capital costs of the Dawson Valley irrigation scheme have been enormous for the small settlement results obtained. It must be regarded as the most expensive settlement project in Queensland's history.

" The total outlay on the Irrigati'on Settlement Scheme was thus £1,053,057, or an average of £8,492 per settler for each settler so far established.

" From a financial aspect the net result of the whole matter is that not only must all the capital expenditure incurred in the scheme be written off, but in addition to carrying this burden, the community will have to find, irrespective of railway losses, approximately £2.000 per annum as a continuing charge for the State's experiment in inland irrigation."

The irrigation settlemPnt at Theodore has proved a costly experiment to the taxpayer\ of the State, but one benefit has undoubtedly arisen out of the failures there-i.e., the Department of Public Lands has realised the need, not only in this Bill but also in the past, to grant larger areas to settlers The area allotted to each settlor when that district was cut up for settlement has been found insufficient to enable him to make a living and so provision is now made for larger areas under developmental and grazing homestead leases agricultural farm tenure, group settlement, pastoral developmental leases, and occupational licenses in an area where it was felt when the scheme was initiated that a very big settlement could be made on small areas. The Department of Public Lands realises, apparently, the need for larger areas in those areas where the settlers have to contend with irregular rainfall and poor soil. I am pleased to see that the Mini"ter is adopting a liberal attitude towards the people who are trying to wrest a living from the soil.

One matter that should be considered in legislation of this kind is the problem of restocking. There is a provision in the Bill that has some bearing on the question, and I should like to suggest to the Government

Mr.Maher.]


the need for some help for landowners, especially in the central-we"tern areas. 'l'he settlers in those districts suffered' great losses during the past ten years, and particularly during the last big drought. It has been stated that 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 breeding ewes were lost during that period in the c<mtral-western districts. That is a great economic loss to the State, because the loss of the sheep that would be bred from those ewes-~-

Mr. SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. gentleman will find it difficult to show that his remarks arc relevant to the Bill now before the F[ousP.

Mr. MAHER : The Bill contains provisions relative to the wool relief scheme, and it was because of the presence of that clause that I was proceeding on these lines. Bound up in the question of wool relief is the problem of restocking.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Where is the stock available?

Mr. MAHER : H !Could be procured, surely? Where there is a demand there IS always a supply. It may not be possible to stock up fully, but some could be got. It seems a tragedy that we should have vast areas covered with grass and no stock to eat it. Surely there is an opportunity here f?r the Government to try to meet the positiOn?

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I find that the provision in this Bill relates to relief ;n respect of special holdings. I hardly thm ,, the hon. g<>ntleman can apply his ren1arks to them.

Mr. MAHER: The clause I have in mind is clause 8. It deals really with the wool relief scheme. 'I'he proposal there is to extend the concessions which were eonceded to the graziers in the terms of the wool relief scheme by a reduction of rent, and all of it is bound up with other conditions, such as reduction of rent on the part of the Crown and reduction of int,erest by financial institutions. It all has a bearing on the matter of providing assistance for those who need it for the purpose of restocking.

Mr. SPEAKER: The question of restocking no doubt has some bearing on the capacity of the grazier to pay his rent. The hon. gentleman may proceed.

Mr. MAHER: I think it is time that the Government should help these men to get re-establish,d. The Government have been good enough to continue in this Bill the provision for an extra two years at reduced rental. Another measure of help would be to extend that period to five years. It would be an encouragement to the man on the land, and possibly to his financiers.

A G'ovERK~IENT MEMBJlR: If it had been five years you would have wanted ten.

Mr. MAHER: Well, the hon. gentleman has said that he wishes to be liberal to his customers. I am sure they arc all apprciativc of the actions of the Government in making an extension for two years. Seeing how these men arc placed, it "·ould be an excellent move on the part of the Government if they made the period five years and it would encourage financial houses t~ extend the measure of their accommodation to these men and help in the purchase of stock. It is a tragic thing for a State that depends so largely for its prosperity on stock to have vast tracts of country unstocked.

[Jlr. Maker.

If the hon. gentleman would do that, it would have a bearing on the restocking of the country, and be another gesture on the part of the Government of he:p for these men in the various districts of the State.

The main objection that we had to the Bill was to the provision as to prickly-pear land, but the Minister's assurance covers that. The concession he intends to give the tobacco growers, and I suppose others who may be lessees of agricultural homesteads, dears that matter. In view of the Minister's statement in regard to the rental periods of prickly-pear leases, the Bill will meet with no obj(•ction on this side of the Hone c.

Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) [2.33 p.m.J: I have very little to say on the Bill, but some 'lf the statements of the hon. the Minister were not very clear. He gave the Leader of the Opposition an assurance with regard to prickly-pear leases, which, as I understand it, means this : He said that these people had been given double time in which a reappraisement should be made. That is, in the case of prickly-pear leases, instead . of the usual seYen years before a reappraisement would be made they were granted fourteen :vears. Now, under this Bill, does the hon. gentleman propose to bring them into line with everyone else and reduce that to seven years?

The SECRETARY FOR l'UBLIC LANDS : When their present period expires.

Mr. NIMMO: Will you allow them to go on to fourteen years?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : They go right up to the end of the present pe_rio.d, fourteen or twenty years, or whatever It Is.

Mr. NIMMO: From my reading of the Bill I understand there is going to be a reduction of the period that these people are allowed from their first reappraisement. We have only got the Bill to go by, and it leaves very little doubt on the matter. It says that the periods of lease are red need as follows:-

Pastoral leases 20 years to 10 years, Grazing selections 14 years to 7 years, Perpetual leases 20 years to 15 years.

I understood the Minister to say that ht• would bring the prickly-pear landholdors inh line with other lessee~. Is that his inteu· tion?

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC LAXDS: vV!wn the present periods expire. I pointed out that in the case of the hon. member foe Dalby the land would not come up for r0appraisemcnt until 1st October, 1948. When that time arrives the assessment periods for the future will be seven year•, but there will be no reas,essment until then.

Mr. EDWARDS: You said that he had no land under that tenure.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I oaid his son. The hon. member was not listening.

Mr. NIMMO: I have no fault to fmd with the Bill. I am pleased that th" Minister intends to respect the exl.sting rights of the settlers. I have been through these areas and I know that many of the• settlers, who have been on their blocks for only six or seven years, have no possibility yet of making a living. I wanted to enter my protest in this House against any attcmpr to interfere with their existing rights, and I am glad to have the assurance of the Minister that he has no such intention.

Land Acts [10 SEPTE!VIBER.] Amendment Bill. :l51

::\lr. DEACON (Cunningham) [2.37 p.rn.]: The Bill contains many minor amendments dcsig~ed to give relief to the Crown tenants, am\ 1t does not appear to be as bad now as the Minister made it out to be when he introduced it. It is possible that if he had giYen a clearer explanation of the Bill ::Lt the introductory stage it would have had an c•asier passage. He certainly did give us the impression that it would make it a bit harder for some of the settlers. To-day he is altogether too affectionate. I am just as much afraid of his affection for the settlers as l previously was about what I considered to be his disregard for their rights. Howm·er, there is not much to quarrel with in the BilL It seeks to extend a measure of relief, which the hon. gentleman opposed wlwn it was first introduced into this House, but I am glad that he has became a convert to it. He certainly did oppose it to the utmost in the past, but since he has been i1~ yower _he has twice extended the pronswn winch has conferred a great deal of benefit on the settlers and the State. Po"ibly it will be extended again on some future occasion.

The Bill also deals with the Dawwn Ya!Jey irrigation scheme. We all remember IJOw that scheme was ushered in with a fl_ourish of trumpets by hon. members oppo'ltc. and we can all recall their praise of it. lt is just as well that I should read the remarks of the then Secretary for Railways, now the hon. member for Rockhampton who ::ald- '

" It makes the imagination reel to attempt to describe the wealth and magnitude and possibilities of this Dawson Valley water conservation and irrigation proposal.

" It reminds me of a few lines from Dante. During my studies of that poet many years ago I read of the spirit of Beatrice leading Dante through the wonders of Heaven and his saying-' Oh speech ! How feeble and how faint

are thou To give conception birth.' "

The trouble with the Labour Party has always been that the imagination of its members is big. They let their imagination nm too far. The Minister must remember, in dealing with this irrigation settlement, that practically all the money spent on the scheme was thrown away. The settlers there are in no better position than if no money had been spent at all.

:Yir. Kn;G: That is rot.

Nlr. DEACON: That is not rot at alL The settlers have got no benefit. Had they ;rone to the Dawson Valley and taken up Pnough land to enable them to make a living and received no help they would have been in a better position to-day. The Minister pointed out the immense expenditure incurred on the scheme of which there is no hope of recovering either the interest or capitaL The Minister, in order to give the settler a chance, will have to wipe off the whole of the money that has been expended and give the settlers whatever assistance he can to enable them to start again. The Minister cannot put the liability for the money spent in making the settlement on the shoulders of the settlers. \s the Opposition pointed out at the time

of the inauguration of the scheme, even !f

the settlers obtained the crop per ac~e. that was suggested by the then Comm1sswner of Irrigation and Water Supply, and the Secretary for Public Lands of that daY. they would only have enough to make a livmg. 'l'hov did not reap the crops forecast and they' have had a. bare living only for many years. It is just as well to have a clean-up of the settlement. I hope the Minister has taken sufficient power under this Bill to dean up the whole business in the interests of the settlers concerned and give them a chance.

There are many other smaller amendments in the Bill that it is impossible to oppose because many of them are of a hopeful nature. They are much better than what 1 expected after listening to the speech of the Minister. I hope that he will administer the Bill in the same friendly way as he spoke of the people them"elves to-day.

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) [2.43 p.m.]: There is not very much in the Bill that I want to object to. I agree with it in ~~e main. but there are one or two prov1s10ns the reason for which I cannot understand. 'l'hu first one I want to refer to is in connection >vith occupation licenses. This Bill proYides that, if in the opinion of the Minister, the holder of the occupation license is overstocking it he can compel him to take off a number of stock being grazed there, or determine the license itself.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: \\"hat is wrong with that?

Mr. MOORE: I will tell the hon. gentleman. People who take up occupation licenses do so to have a reserve, particularly against drought. 'l'hey do not stock the land at the time. It is usually more or less valueless country on to which they can shift their stock in very bad times. It is quite possible that when a lessee shifts_ his stock on to land under occupation license he compels it to carry far more than its normal carrying capacity. That is because he may only require it for two or three months. Therefore, although that land could carry no more than 500 head of cattle for twelve months it may carry 1,000 head for a very much shorter period. Occupation license land is not, as a rule, used all the vear round, but only in times of special cir· cumstances and is usually kept as reserve country. The rent is generally fairly low, which enables stockowners to get them as reserves against dry periods. I cannot see the reason why the Minister should object to the licensee using lands under occupation license in that manner. As a rule it is the worst form of tenure because the land is the worst class availallle. \Vhen a man takes out an occupation license he is not under much expense in holding it, except to pay the rent, and if the stockowner can use the land for two or three months during the year in order to save his own property and give him an opportunity of surviving a difficult period he is satisfied. He does not keep his stock on it all the year IfOund. I do not see what value it is to the Minister to prevent that from being done. It. is recog-nised that as a rule . the occupatiOn license is not used all the year round. It is only used as a reserve and not as a permanently stocked area.

The next part of the Bill dealing with the clearing of prickly-pear is a danger~ms one. The Minister said this Bill had nothmg

Mr. Moore.]


to do with freehold land. That is quite wrong, because it definitely states-

" that the person in charge of land of any tenure, including land held in feesinlpl<>, shall extirpate and destroy the prickly-pear upon the land."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I said the reappraisement clause had nothing to do with freehold land.

Mr. MOORE: Of course reappraisement has nothing at all to do with that-there cannot he any reappraisement on the £rePhold land-but I draw attention to the part of the clause where the Government may give notice to the man on any land. no matter of what tenure. The wording of the clause is that the Commission may serve on t hC' ovrncr, occupier, or person in charge-

" a notice requiring him to extirpate and destroy the prickly-pear upon the land or a specified portion thereof within thirty days from the elate of the publication 'of tl1c newsiJapcr concerned.

" If at the expiration of such period of thirty clays the prickly-pear upon the land or specified portion thereof has not been extirpated and destroyed the Comm,i,ssion may take adion itself to do so.

It all depends on the administration. I do not know whether that period is meant to apply to the destruction of tiger pen r and ,,ther unusual species. It is vorv difficult to estimate the cost of clearing prickh--pear and the time required. It may be all ri§!ht when it is being done by cactoblastis, but when it comes to cutting it up or poisoning it it is verv difficult to estimate the time required. ~<\ll other Acts provide thirty clays within which to commence to clear effectively, but this Bill says that if the owner has not destroyed the pear in thirty davs the Commission can nut its men on to·· carry out the work at his expense. If it was only a matter of ~ acre of pear country it ma.v be simple enough. The wording of the Bill leaves it too vague. It means that the department can give notice to a man to destroy the pear on his holding within thirty days, and if he does not-and in most cases it would be impossible to dear it in that time-the Government can put men on to do the work at his expense. Every other Act makes a man liable if he has not _0:ffectively "commenced" operations. This Bill gives him thirty days to do the work. and thirty days is a small period in which to require a man to eliminate a noxious W<>ed like prickly-pear. Cutting, stacking. and burning js a Rlo1v procp~:.;. It would be a very small property. indeed. that a. man could clear completely in thirtv <lays. In heavy prickly-pear country it would not need to be more than one or two acr'''· I fail to appreciate the object of putting such a drastic clause in a. Bill ,,·hich the Minister states is to assist the settler.

I am not altogether in agreement with the amendment of the reassessment periods. The reason given by the Minister was that it would not only bring the prickly-pear leases into line with pastoral and grazing leases, but it would probably be of benefit to the selector, because he would have a reappraisement every seven, ten, or fifteen years, as the case might be, instead of th" dovble period provided for specifically in

[Mr. Moore.

the Act of 1923. The argument advanced bv the hon. gentleman was this: that "• the pear was thick when the settler took up the lease as a reward for the work he wa• to do h~ should have double the ordinar.' reassessment period. He pointed out that as the prickly-pear had been cleared fror.t the land the value would be much increased and consequently when the time for reappraisement arrived it would be of bene!l: to the settlor if he was only reappraised for a. single instead of a double period.

The SECRETARY FOR PcnLIC LA:-:-Ds : Thu is common sense.

Mr. MOORE: Will the hol'l. gentleman j nst look at it from the point of view of common sense? Do<>s he think that when there is a reassessment at the end of th,• second period seven, ten, or fourteen yeats. there will be' a reduction or an increase in rent?

'I'he SmRETARY FOR Pt:DLIC LANDS: It giv•·• him a chance.

Mr. MOORE : The Minister said he would have the opportunity to get a reduction if ihere was a drought or a. slump in values. But in appraisemont questions the basis of the arguments of the Crown has been that they will not be dictated by a temporar:; slump in values or drought for one or two years in a particular area but depend on an a. verage over a period of years. The argument of the Government has been that it would be wrong for the Land Court to take notice of a. drought and thus reduce values at that particular time.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLTC LAKDS : Th•; Land Court does adopt that procedure.

Mr. l\IIOORE: The basis of the Gocernment's argument is that the right thing to do is to take a series of years and .averag<' the prices and the seasons for that period and fix tho rental accordingly. In doing so they consider they are more or less giYing an advantage to the settler. What advantage to the settlers in these prickly-pear areas was it to have a double instead of rt

single period? Sccurih--that is what il \Yas for l I3cean~e there" was SUllposed to he an advantage it is specifically provided in the Act that-

" In everv case where .after the commencement" of this Act the rate of any rent is fixed in respect of any new lease of pricklv-pear land issued under this Act and the- principal Act, the time duringwhich such rent shall be payable at such rate shall, notwithstanding anything contained in the principal Act, in the case of a pastoral lease, be for the nex" ensuing two periods of ten years, and in the case of a prickly-pear lease lw for the period of ten years, a.ncl in ~lw case of grazing selections be for the next ensuing two periods of seven years, and in the case of perpetual lease selection' be for the next ensuing two periods of fifteen years."

It is clearly stated ihere that there is all

existing agreement. Now the Government come along and alter the period-and mal«J it retrospective. The amendment reads-

" The amendment made by section, l,J and 11 of this Act to ' The Prickly-pear Land Acts 1923 to 1934,' shall be deemed to have been made at the commencement of ' The Prickly-pear Land Act

Land Acts (10 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 353

of 1923.' and to that extent this Act 'hall have retrospective effect accordingly."

The Minister may point out, as he is perfectly justified in doing, that, after all, the conditions under which the settler took up the land in a prickly-pear area after 1923 are definitely set forth in the Act. There are two periods definitely set out, and whether they are advantageous to the settler or not is the settler's funeral. He took up the land on that basis. In the meantime bv biological methods tbe pear has been cleared and the Minister 'now says, in effect, that that clearance gives him a justification for altering the· basis on which these le""" were taken up. Instead of be;ng on tlw basis of a double period, as set out in the Act, the Minister propose.s to ins·:;rt a provision that the conditions shall be retrospective and be dH•med to have been placed in the Act when the individual took up the lease. It is all very well to say that it shall be deemed to ha vc been there, but it was not there. A man takes up a lease under certaiu conditions. Then the Ministet says afterwards that he is altering the Act. and that the conditions shall be deemed to have been in the Act when the l8a' c was taken up. I cannot see that .anything is to be g-ained by the Crown. and I cannot see that there is any advantage to the settler. To me it eeems to be a disadvantage to him. It is a great advantage to him if his land is to he appraised for a double period. He knows exact] v where he is fur a longer time. I do not think that it is likely that there will be any reduction in tho Yalue of the land at the conclusion of the ~econd pr-riod of sevC'n or ten years. Under ordinary conditions the land will increase in Yaluc. To alter the conditions after a Il!an has taken up his lcafle, and to say that those conditions shall be deemed to have hct•n in the Act whcm he took up the 1case, is altering the: agreement undC'r which he took it up. I cannot see how the Minister will r;ain bv the Bill. It mav be easier to administer c the Act. but I doe not .sec that the gain is commensurate with the disadvantage of altering an agreement laid down b.v Act of Parliament.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : But they cannot always be prickly-pear lands. There muf:t be so1ne conclusion.

Mr. l\IOORE: I do not say that they can. Lands arc being taken up now on a quit<' different basis, but I do not see that the rrown has much to gain by altering the basis on which these people· took up their land under a definite Act of Parliament.

The SECRETARY FOR l'!iBLIC LAKDS : \V e are not looking for gain. \Ve seek to protect th,, settler.

Mr. MOORE: I beg to differ. I should prefer to haYe the reappraisement after the double period.

The SECRF.T.IRY FOR PliBLTC LANDS: \Ye might consider making it optional.

;\fr. MOOIU£: I should not object to that. I should take the double period. From my experience. I slrould say that the double period is preferable. If the Minister me.do it optional the responsibility would then be placed upon the leaseholder, but if the rcsponsibilih- is taken entirely by the Crown rrnd the indi,·idual suffers by having increased rent in the second period, he will

1936-;-;:

naturally say, "I have been diddled hv the Crown. I took up this land und,;t. certain definite conditions."

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC L.IKDS: For a certain time.

Mr. MOORE: Certainly, but it was taken up under a ·definite provision UEi to rc-n.ppraisement. The Crown proposes to alt"r that condition.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LAxDS: After that time has expired.

Mr. MOORE : No. The CrO\Yn proposes to alter the conditions and to say that the new conditions sha:l be deemed to have been made when the individual first took up his land. Surelv the leaseholder has grounds for complaint • If the Minister, as he sngo-csts savs he will make it optional, then the posit] on will be edtirely altered,. and if the individual then elects to brmg hrs lease into iine with others, and hold it for a single period, that is his lookout. I do not like the idea of altering, by one Act of Parliament the terms and conditions of a. previous A~t under which a man has. taken up land bccau~e it does not g1Ye hHu a11

opportu,;ity of agreeing. He is simply told that it is altered.

To the rest of the Bill and the extension of the reduced rentals I quite agree. I had to suffer a good deal of very severe criticism at the time the reductions were liroo made. I recognised then, as I do to-day, that the wool industry is of national importance to Queensland, and I feel that it was worth bearing the unfair criticism in the interests of such an industry. I do not object to that part of the Bill-~n fa~t I welcome it. It would be a good 1dea rf the hon. gentleman extended the period of t\YO vears to five years, because in many places people have suffered great distress, and it will be vcrv difficult for them to restock. I should ~crtai nly be inclined to give them all the help possible.

As to the irrigation part of the Bill, there should be better conditions concerning water supplies. ReferencP was made at the time the Bill was passed in 1922 to the lack of investigation that had been made into the auestion of water supplies, and the fears that I expressed preYiously were certainly confirmed by the examination that was made by the commission that investigated the maUer. As to the future, I hope the Government will so act as to promote successful settlements and keep them going. I certainly shall not complain ahout alterations in the Act that will make that possible.

~1r. BRAND (Is is) [3.4 p.m.]: It has been most interesting thrs afternoon to list<Om to the Secretary for Public Lands saying that he was going to look after his customers, who were the selectors upon the lands of this Sta to. It is most refreshing to hear that from a Labour Minister. The hon. gentleman is bringing down a Bill this afternoon principally, as he has stated himself, to provide relief for the settlers, and the relief that is proposed is to be given by way of amendment of legislation that was passed by Labour Governments, which we told them at the time did not show sympathy to the man on the land. Time has proved that it is necessary to give these concessions to the men who have gone to make a living on the land in order that they may remain on the land.

Mr. Brand.]


The Minister owes a duty to the people in the country. It is the opinion in many quarters to-day that whilst the present Labour Government remain in power it will not be possible to have the large pastoral holdings cut up for closer settlement, and the actions of the Government indicate that they are entirely different from past Labour Governments, who, both in this House and outside, claimed that the land belonged to the people, and that it should be given to them. I hope that the present Minister is not going to lose sight of the need for regarding the large pastoral holdings as being suitable for more closer settlement. You know, Mr. Speaker, that throughout the West there is an earnest clamour for land fo: closer settlement, and that there are hundreds of applicants for every block, and that many people are still anxious to go on the land. If the provisions of the Bill will help to make for greater settlement then I welcome it.

The sheepmen are entitled to every consideration from the Government and I w.e!come the proposal. to extend 'the proVIsiOns of the wool rehef scheme which was first introduced in 1931, when 'wool prices slumped heavily, but it must also be remembered that woolgrowers are still paying as much as 3d. an acre for land in certain localities. That is a very high rent. T'he relief that is proposed ;~·ill be very acceptable, bnt I agree with the Leader of tne Opposition that the scheme should be !"xte~ded for at least five years, particularly m view of the tragic experience of western areas in recent years. I can recall a speech on the subject that you, Mr. Speaker delivered some years ago. It received ~ great deal of publicity, and although it called forth a considerable amount of comment I believ·e 'that your predictions have been proved to-day to be true. The West has passed through very distr.essing times. :a is impossible for people in the larger centres vf population to appreciate the privations that the people there have undergone. In fact, it is said that the West has passed through a ten-year drought, and that is sufficient justification for the largest measure of sympathetic treatment on the part of the Government, even greater than that displayed in the Bill.

The Minister is seeking power to exercise even greater control over any remaining prickly-pear infested areas. We all know the history of the ravages of the prickly-pear and its eradication. We can all recall that it is only a few years ago that the subject of destruction ceased to loom very large during the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Public Lands. We are also aware of the large sums of money expended by Governments in their unsuccessful attempts to combat the menace-unsuccesful until the discovery of a biological agent in the cactoblastis, which carried out its work so effectively that the problem quickly assumed a new aspect. But species of pear are still growing on our land. The Minister is taking unto himself power in this Bill to call upon settlers on whose land that pear is growing to eradicate it within thirty days, and failing compliance his officers will enter upon that land, do the work, and charge the cost against the selector. I should like from the Minister his real interpretation of that clause. No doubt when the Bill reaches the Committee stage we shall get it from him.

[Mr. Brand.

\Ve have obtained from the statement of the Minister on the second reading stage a different conception of its intention from the one he gave on the initiation. Perhaps when the Bill advances another stage, or even on this stage itself, he will be able to show that these clauses are not as drastic as they would appear.

I believe there is some justification for this Bill in regard to other matters with which it seeks to deal. I believe the principle underlying the proposed concessions and relief is such as to warrant our passing this measure. At all events I hope that the Minister will recognise the fact that the sheep selectors and prickly-pear lessees are not his only customers. There are many customers of his department who are not included in the provisions of this Bill. The Minister does not take such a lenient view, for example, of the agricultural farm selector, who is one of the most desirable class of selectors we have. If this selector commits a small infringement of the regulations he is called upon to show cause why the Minister should not determine his lease. We could very well relieve this class of Crown tenant from some of those onerous conditions and thus give to the man on the small areas relief that no other Government has given him. The Government from time to time helped the large sel<"~tor by means of extension of leases and reduction of rentals, but the small selector-the man with 160 acres-who is in greater need of help than any other class of selector, has been overlooked. I hope that with the passage of this Bill without any great deal of opposition or criticism the Minister will be encouraged to bring down a further Bill making provision for more sympathetc consideration of the small selector who is so much in need of our help.

Mr. EDW ARDS (Tanango) [3.14 p.m.]: After listening to the speeches of the Minister on the initiation and second reading of this Bill it is difficult to understand just what is meant by some of its clauses. No one could fall out with the statements he made on the initiation, nor could one say that they coincided with his statements on the second reading. Whatever moved the hon. gentleman to bring down this Bill, 1 feel sure that everv hon. member who knows anything about the difficulties of the people who took up the areas now in question when they were thickly covered with prick1ypear, hopes that this Bill will be of some value to them. Information I have vbtained is to the effect that in many districts, such as Chinchilla and around vV andoan, the pear is spreading again, particularly on those areas where it is sheltered by scruq. Bearing in mind that many of the holdings embrace large areas it is readily understood that pieces of pear may grow .fo': a considerable time and reach a flounshmg stage before they are discovered, and it is possible to distribute the insects on them. We all know that the pear spreads chiefly when it fruits. The selectors have to be constantly on the lookout for seedlings m the areas I mentioned. In some areas It is coming up as thickly as straws in a broom, particularly in scrub oountry. Although the selectors may have taken _up the land on advantageous terms regardmg the clearing of the pear, it must be acknowledged that they have carried out a tremendous amount of work in fencing, the

Land Acts [10 SEPTEMBER.) Amendment Bill. 355

finding of suitable water, and other improvements. In some districts they have not found water that is suitable for stock up to the present time. Many bores have been sunk but tests of the water reveal that it is not fit for stock. In all its legislation the department seems to have one desire--

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : To take care of the settler on the land.

Mr. EDW ARDS: The hon. gentleman may blow his own flute in this House but the selector does not l:;)elieve what he says.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Yes, he does; that is why we are here.

Mr. EDW ARDS : If the settler cannot pay his rent on 'the due date he is subject to a 10 per cent. penalty. That is indicative of the sympathy that is extended to him by the Government.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Tho same penalty was in force when your Government were in office.

Mr. EDW ARDS: That is no argument. The selector deserves all the consideration it is possible for the Government to extend to him. A great deal of the land affected by the Bill was not under occupation when the Moore Government were in power. I hope the Minister will take a lenient view when administering this Bill. We know from past experience that regulations will be drafted under it.

The Minister would be well advised to remove all the irksome conditions attached to land tenures, and reduce rents in many of these areas to a greater extent than this Bill provides for. That policy would help to create emplovment for the people of our State. This Bill seeks to impose further penalties on selectors. and thereby prevent them from progressing as they otherwise would and employing more labour. The penalties provided for under this Bill will be an additional reason why selectors will not be able to carry out desirable improvements, and consequently unable to employ the amount of labour that they otherwise would. One would think in connection with land settlement-and this Bill touches upon land settlement-a campaign should be launched throughout tho State to endeavour to bring back that confidence that will enable the settlers to carry out improvements and improve the position of the State. In many of those areas the settlers are not able to carry out improvements that are necessary. Fencing and subdivisional work has not been proceeded with, and the result is that the workless are denied an opportunity of finding employment. If the Government work in closer co-operation with the selectors, giving the latter the necessary confidBnce to expend money on improvements, and thus employ additional labour, it would be for the benefit of the State. The Minister should look at the position from that angle, in connection with the land settlement policy generally, and the administration of this Bill in particular. I do not mean such improvements as are necessary to comply with the conditions under which the land was obtained, but additional improvements making for greater production and carrying capacity, including the obtaining of water or additional ·water, the erection of necessary buildings, and accommodation that would give the settlers more of the amenities of civilised life.

Mr. BELL (Stanley) [3.24 p.m.]: It is very gratifying to me that this Bill affords at lea.st one occasion on which I am more or less in accord with the Minister, inasmuch as the hon. gentleman has declared what the policy of the Government is in connection with land tenure, and I find myself to some extent in agreement with him. I hope that he will take a step further in the near future, and declare the Government's policy on the resumption of land.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : We are taking all the resumptions we are entitled to.· We get the lessees to give us the resumption now and not wait for some years.

Mr. BELL: There are leases that will fall due in the near future, and if the Government would announce their policy to the holders of such leases it would stabilise conditions on the land, and make for the welfare of Queensland.

'I'here is one part of the Bill on which I am in agreement with the hon. member for Dalby that is, in relation to the thirty days 'for the destruction of prickly-pear. ~·hatever mav he the 'intention of the Government it is well known that it is impossible to destroy prickly-pear or tiger pear in thirty days.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : To initiate the work in thirty days.

Mr. BELL: The case of a man in tho Warwick area has been mentioned. I understand that that man had to forfeit his freehold rights. There may be many more in the same position. \Ve know that pear "xists on Government lands, and if tho Government intended to act so drastically a< to take over the settler's land, they should set the example by destroying the pear on their own lands.

The SECRETARY FOR l't:BLIC LANDS: And so we do.

Mr. BELL : The hon. gentleman may do it, but he has not to do it within a certain time.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: W•> start within a certain date.

Mr. BELL: The Bill does not say that they must start within a certain date. It says-

" If at the expiration of such periot.! of thirty days the prickly-pear upon the land or specified portion thereof has not been extirpated and destroyed, the Commission shall have full power and authority by its servants or agents. without further notice to enter upon such land and expend such sums of money """ it may deem expedient in extirpating and destroying the prickly-pear to the satisfaction of the Commission."

The Minister has relieved our minds to a certain extent. He has placed the Bill in a different light from that in which he led us to look at it yesterday, and we arf' grateful to that extent, but I hope that h<' will consider the clause I have quoted with a view to adopting my suggestion.

Question-" That the Bill be now read a second time" (Mr. Pease's motion)-pu.t and passed.

Consideration of the Bill in Committee made an Order of the Day for Tuesday nexr

Mr. Bell.]

356 Samnills Licensing Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Sawmills Licensing Bill.

SA \'V:IIILLS LICE~Sil\iG BILL.

CoMMITTEE.

(Jl r. Hmwon, Buranda, in t'he chair.)

Clame 1-" Sho1·t title "-agreed to. Clau~e 2-" Interpretation"-

Mr. ~ICKLIN (;llurrumba) [3.29 p.m.J: I moYe the following amendment:-

" On pag-e 2, after line 51, insert the following proviso :-

'Provided that the term: shall not include any such building, premises, or place which is used solely for the sawing or cutting of timber for the purpose of making cases used in t1u~ marketing of fruit.' "

T11 JllOYjng this arnendrnent I am taking into consideration the fact that the Minister has seen lit to exclude fuel mills from the operation of the Bill. I considt>r that case mills should have the same exernptwn as fuel mills. They should not be hampered in any way by the provisions of this Bill. A case mill cannot be termed a sawmill. The majority of plants used solely for the cutting· of timber for fruit cases are of low power and can be shifted from place to place as required. Therefore if those plants arc not capable of milling timber in the ordinarv sense, and so cannot enter into compcti.tion with the bigger sawmills, they should bo placed in the same class as fuel rnilh and be excluded from the operations of this Bill.

The small case mill-< have been of con.siclcrable Lcnefit to the fruit industry by bringing a bout a reduction in the price of case'!. Some years ago the cutting of cases was solelY in the lutnds of the big sawmills. with whi.ch it •Yas really a sideline. They cut up a. lot of their waste stuff for cases and the pri<c of cases then ranged from Is. 3d. to ls. 5d., but with the entry of the small mill into the case-cutting industry the-. price was reduced to 9d. or lOci., as ac present. When we realise that the cost of caors constitutes 8 per cent. or 10 per cent. of the marketing cost of fruit, we can realiso what an important part tlwsc case mills haw played in bringing about a reduction in the cost of marketing fruit in this State.

I cannot sec why a mill such as that with which this amendment deals should not hA placer! on the same footing as a fuel mill and be exempt from the proYisions of the Bill. If these mills arc brought within its scope and the owners wish to shift their plant-as they do when they cut out the local supplies of timber-it will be necessary for them to get permission to shift and that will hamper them. I think the amendment is reasonable and will not only be of assistance to the men in the case· making industry, but also to those who arc depending on getting the cheapest possible case to carrv on with the fruit industry. I hope the· Minister will see fit to ,,,cccpt it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, H crlurt) [3.34 p.m.]: I do not intend to accept this amendment because it would defeat one of the objects of the Bill. There are many case mills operating in the State that have very large plants and supply all kinds of cases. It would not be right to exempt them. I listened to what the hon. member said, and he certainly did

[Mr. Nicklin.

not advance any reason, in my opinion, to cause me to change my mind.

The department has to be considered too. If these mills were not licensed the department would have no check on the operations of a mill or its, source of supplie>. From investigations made by the Timber Industry Advisory Committee, we have beep advised that a great amount of sweatmg 10

going on at the case mills. I have a report here of an investigation, received this month. ,.-hich prove.s conclusively that the conditions in mftnv of these smaller case mills, particularly, with regard to labour, at·e verv bad. I'D one instance these rates •.-ere paid-

Tailer-out Labourer Bench man Tailer-out Boy, 15 to 16 years

Per week. £ s. d. 3 1 6 2 11 3 4 8 0 3 18 0 1 5 0

They really had uo books and no time records.

Then there is the case of another mill which, fortunately I suppose, was burnt clown not yery long ago and perhaps has not boon replaced. In that case the benchman received £3 a week, a free house estimated as worth 15s. a week, a gallon of milk a day, and a tin of milk for his dog. It is really this type of mill against which we haYo the greatest complaint on the ground of under-paying its employees and under-cutting competitors.

In 1921, pineapple cases were sold at £8 2s. 6d. a hundr0d, from 1924 to 1929, the price dropped to £6 17s. 6d., and it is now £3 15s. a hundred. The fruit industry is protected by a pool that giYes it rather good conditions, yet some of the people are ]Wepared to exploit the workers in the timber industry by asking them to work for a rate of pay that will enable pineapple. casec to be sold at £3 15s. a hundred. That destroys the argument that the price of timber has increased. Those conditions are brought about by exploiting the workers and t h<" Government are not going to allow it to continue. They are not going to allo11· any worker to be 'exploited.

It has ho0n said thftt we can police the awards. \Ye haYe attempted to do so and in these instances we found that the time sheets w0re faked. Men signed for so much but we do not eyon know that they got it. \Ye know yery well that the hours set down as the time workod are not correct. Anyone who knows anything at all about the manufacture of cases will realise that if thev can be sold at £3 15s. a huncl,·ed the manufacturer either cannot be paying for his timber. that he is stealing it-that is something that wP are out to prevent-or is not pavin'" a fair price for his labour. \Ye w~'nt. to know the sources of supply of timber and it is quite evident that if any mill can sell a product of timber at a price at which it cannot be produced under award rates and conditions there is something wrong. That is whv we are insisting that all mills shall be licensed and it is this class of mill that is not sending in proper returns and that comes within the category of mills that arc processin!l' timber at an uneconomic level. I have no intention of accepting the amendment because I am satisfied that some attention should be given to the mills that I have mentioned.

Sawmills Licensing Bill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Sawmills Licensing Bill. 357

:\Ir. DEACO;\i (Cnnninglwm) [3.38 p.rn.j: -~pparcntly the Minister has no objection to t lw exploil'ation of the fruit growers. The:, ea n work Yery long hours and for very low

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC LAXDS : Thcv 're protected by the pool. ·

:\Ir. DEACO~: The only p1·otec-tion that the pool can give thcn1 i~ in connection with the me1rket pric9 of their fruit. Let the 1\Iini~ter look up the records C'Oncerning the Dcerburrum settlement and sec what happened there. He will find that despite all (~ overnment as:-3istance and everything else the growers were unable to make a living.

The hon. gentleman quoted figures to show that the price of pineapple cases had fallen from £8 odd a hundred to £3 odd a hundred. EYidently tlrc fruitgTowcr was t>xploitNl when he was called ,;.pon to pay £8 a lmndcrd. but the Minister desires now to hand him over to the tender mercie' .of the licensed sawmillers so that they mav b0 ablo to i11crease their price's ag;tin t"a £8 a hunched, and perhaps £10 a hundred.

:\lr. GLEDSOX: Not so long as they arc licensed.

l>Ir. DEACON: Is the fruitgrower not entitled to some considerati-on? If there are some small mills that are not paying the award rates what are the inspectors of la hour doing.? There is a special department with a full staff to police industrial a wards and see that the wages set out are paid. Case mills work under an award and have no greater opportunity of dodging its provisions than employers in any other tra·de or profession. The same industrial officers oYersee them and should be able to detect breaches of the award and get the men to make reports to them. The reason submitted by the Minister for refusing this amendment is a Yery thin ono. He certainly has not shown any desire to help the primary producer. He is more concerned witlJ monopolistic sawmills.

The SECRETARY FOR l'CBLIC LAliDS : I am concerned about the workmen in them.

::'.1r. DEACON: What is the difference between a fuel mill and a case mill? The fuel mill is exempted. These small fuel mills are situ a tee! in the l}ush and they may be paying the same wages as the small sawmills cutting fruit case timber. There is no difference between the two. \VB ha Ye

no evidence that the oase miller is dodging the industrial laws.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: \Ye will haYc all that information when the;· a.re registered.

Mr. DEACON: Has the Minister any information to show what wages fuel milb pay? They arB exempted from this clause because they are small mills. The fruit c>tse mills are only small and cut any class of bush timber.

The SECRETARY FOR P CBLIC LAXDS : It is a different type of mill to tbo fuel mill.

:Yir. DEACON : Timlwr that is considered not good enough for fncl mills can be cut for fruit cases. The fuel mills must haYe timber that is good, sound burning timber. 'YhilB anv crooked and knottccd timher can be cut up for cases so long •as it will take a nail. I ~CC' no rea:::on for rPfusing th<.:' at11Cltdrncnt.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: There is no sound reason ·whv casemakcrs should not be licensed. •

Mr. DEACON : There rs. The :Ylinister is omitting fuel mills. The Minister di-d not attempt to distinguish between them. The reason the Minister gave for the inclu· sion of the casemaking mill is solely that they do not pay award rates of wages, but not one single instance has (leen given to support that statement.

The SECRETARY FOR Pc:BLIC LANDS: I have proved that by the prices I cited.

Mr. DEACON : The Minister has not, because the price depends on the value of the timber cut for cases. One mill might he cutting valueless bush timber.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS : And some might not be pa.ying for their logs.

Mr. DEACON: That is quite true, because they obtain logs of that class for nothing. There are many private landowners who get that class of timber cleared from their land by these millers. Saplings can be cut into fruit cases. The Mini>ter is discriminatin?; against the mill that utilises the lowest cla's of timber and compelling it to be licensed, wh01·eas the fuel mill escapes. There are stronger arguments in favour of exempting the small fruit case mill than tho fuel mill.

Mr. BRAND (l sis) [3.45 p.m.]: In refusing to accept the amendment the Minister again referred to the report of the Timber Industry Advisory Committee. I understand the report is printed and in the hands of some people.

The SECRE'rARY FOR PuBLIC L,\~DS: The report is not printed, and is not in the hands of anyone who is not entitled to have it.

Mr. BRAND: Mr. Camp bell, in a letter to the nBwspaporo, said that he had ono.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAKDS : Ho '·'l as a member of the Timber Industrv Advisory Committee. •

Mr. BRAND : Does not the hon. gentleman think that if Mr. Camphell had one he must have it printed?

The SECRET.\RY FOR PuBLIC LAKDS: No.

Mr. BRAND: Does not the hon. gentleman think he owes a dutv to this Chamber to make the report availab'e? \Vhy does the hon. ·gentleman continually rof.er to this report that is not before members? Surely the representatives of the people are entitl-ed to know what report has been received by the Minister.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: I have been telling you all along.

Mr. BRAND : Dnring my experience, which covers a long period, this is the first occasion on which a Minister has refused to make available a report upon which a Bill was founded. If hon. members arc expected to discuss a Bill founded on a report, that report should be made available.

The :Vlinister men tionccl certain sawmills, particularly those engaged in cutting case timber, and stated that they were not obserY· ing the awards of the court. If the 2\linistor's statcrnent is true. it indicates that the Gon1·nment are failing in their duty in not having the awards properly policed. I do not think the :Minister can quote a case \\·here thesr; millers have not oecn paying the award rates. The awards of the court

Mr. Brand.l

358 Sawmills Licensing Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Sawmills Licensing Bill.

are obeyed, and severe penalties are provided for the employers who may fail to do so. If any mill continues to disobey the award of the court it should be dealt with. Awards are made to be obeyed.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: ·we start off by registering them.

Mr. BRAND: I cannot appreciate the logic of the hon. gentleman's argument that by licensing these mills he will force them to obey an award that they are not obeying now. 'l'he only effective method is the efficient policing of awards. As an employer of labour I do not think employers generally wish to pay less than the award rate; employers want to pay more than the a ward, and if they do not do 'O it is because thev cannot afford it. Generally speaking, the employers consider the interests of their employees. That has been my method as an employer. Proper treatment of employees results m the employer getting a better deal.

The Minister should agree to the amendment. The hon. member for Murrumba has put forward a logical case for the exemption of the smaller mills dealing with case timber. The acceptance of the amendment by the Minister would be a ge,ture to the• fruitgrowing industry that the Bill would not entail hardship on them-that it would not caus·e a rise in the price of case timber beyond their capacity to pay. The sole object of the amendment is to ensure that that wiii not happen. The argument in support of the amendment was much stronger than the reasons stated by the Minister for not accepting it.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) [3.50 p.m.]: It is evident to me that the Minister has no sympathy with the fruitgrowing industry.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDR: What purpose can the amendment have regarding the fruit industry?

Mr. MAHER: This Bill has a bearin!l; on the fruit industry in this respect; immediately the case manufacturers are licensed the prices of the cases used by the fruitgrowers may be increased. as is the case in all industries where there is a close corporation. The fruitgrower is not able to regulate the return for his fruit even though the sawmiller, under the special conditions provided so generously by the Minister under this Bill, is able to regulate his returns. The fruitgrower has to take the rulmg market prices in Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne or elsewhere, and on occasion the return is very low. It is the function of the Government to see to it that those who engage in any form of primary production, as in the fruit industry, should not be handicapped in their efforts to produce at a profit. The hon. member for Mm-rumba instanced the men at Beerburrum who were placed there by a benevolent Government, and believed they could grow pineapples for profit. The result proved very serious to the State. A recent statement disclose' a loss in the tobacco growing experiment at Beerburrum of £230,000. This was the figure a year ago, and I do not know whether the amount has since becu increased. The fruitgrowers are not so prosperous that they can afford to pay the higher prices that will undoubtedly Le demanded for cases, once the special conditions provided under this Bill operate. Their lot will not be made any easier. We

[Mr. Brand.

also have the instances of Mount Mee, Astonville, and Mount Pleasant banamt settlements. The expenditure was no less than £52 000 but there are very few settlers remaining. 'I only mention this in passing to show that it is difficult to exist in the fruitgrowing industry; and, that ~herefore. the Minister should help the frmtgrowers even in a small degree by accepting the amendment proposed by the hon. membr for Murrumba. It would make the lot of these men easier.

The non-paying of award r'!'tes, a~ alleged bv hon. members opposite, Is a ridiculous argument. The hon. gentleman has used it continuously throughout the clebate~ on this Bill but has not quoted one smgle instance 'of the evasion of the a war.d hy ,awmillers. Such statements should be substantiated. The case mills have an equal right with the fuel mill• to he exempt from the provisions of this )3i_ll. It w~uld bf' quite clear that the Mmister has httle or no sympathy at all with the men in the fruit industrv if he refuses to accept the amendment. ·

Mr. NICKLIN (.liurrurnba) [3.54 p.m.]: The Minister has not accepted the amendment and in his reasons for non-acceptance he h~s advanced an argument against not only this clause, but the :whole Bill. Wh~n it was pointed out to him that. the fru.Itgrowers would have to pay a higher pnce for their case timber he asked why they should not, seeing that they are protected by a pool. I would remind the hon. gen~lcman there is not a single pool operatmg in the fruit industry, and these are the people concerned with case timber.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Have you not the pineapple pool?

Mr. NICKLIN: No. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK:

Why do you not create one? Mr NICKLIN: Because with a pool 1t.

is ve.ry difficult to handle perishable products, as the hon. gentleman should know.

The Minister has mentioned the progressin> decline in the price of cases. He .statE'd that some years ago cases were s~llmg at £8 5s., but he forgot to mention that during that period banana growers we~P receiving from 25s. to 30s .. a case for then bananas. At the present time the ave_!'ag:<' price is from 6s. to 15s. a cas<J an? It " only in recent weeks that the p~Ice f.N bananas has gone up to 15s. It Is quite sound to argue that the fruitgrowers sh?ulcl be able to get cases as cheaply as possible. The Minister quoted £3 15s. per 100. Th<' average is nearer £4.

The Minister has argued that there should be some supervision over case mills becau"· they are not paying the award rates of wages; but that is. not the concern of the fruitgrowers. It Is the concern of the Department of Labour and Industry. That department should see that the awards ar" policed efficiently. It has a number of inspectors running all _over the country. interfering with the busmess of the baker< and preventing the people in the countr: from getting fresh bread. If it can have.· industrial inspectors to do that, why I_Iot appoint them to watch the vanous sawnulls and case mills to see that the a ward rates are paid' As the hon. member for CuHningham !:as stated. the timber used for the

Sawmills Licensing Bill. [10 SEPTElVIBER.] Sawmills Licensing Bill. 359

making of fruit cases is not suitable for me in the sawmilling industry generally.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOC:R AND INDUSTRY: \\"hat an army of inspectors would be Tcquired if we are to havo one on the door· Rtcp of e, ery employer!

Mr. NIOKLIN: The hon. gentleman scemo to have enough inspectors to worry every baker in the country and prevent the peo;Jle from getting fresh bread. This timbn is of very little us3 in the sawmilling industry and the operations of these ca"e mills ha,·o been responsible for a considerable reduc· tion in the price of cases. I am sorry that the Minister considers that it is necessary in the interests of the sawmilling industry that fruitgrowers should be compelled to pay higher prices for their cases. It is evident from the Minister's remarks that higher prices for cases are one of his objects in mtroducing this Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (lion. 1'. Pease,. Htrbe1·t) [3.58 p.m.]: If any party has made 1t clear that case mills should he licensed, it is the party op])osite. It is the dc.~i1:e of the Government to have proper ~upervisiOn over the whole of the industry. W.e want every sawmill, plywood and veneer mJ!l, or case mill in the State to be regis· tered. What objection can there be to that?

· \Vhat extra cost will it entail? The cost to the casemillers will be in the vicinity of 5s. a year. That will not increase the price of .fr~it cases or anything else. We ar.e p_rovid.mg for the registration of the mills m th1s branch of the industrv because we want to k.now exa~tly what is going on. To-day there IS a certam amount of suspicion that in many districts these mills nre not pa_ying for the timber they use which belongs to the Crown. That is not fair.

I say emphatically that the price of cases should b~ sufficient to pay everybody en.gag~d. m any phase of the industry a fa1r hvmg wage. The Government de>;irc also that the man who buys these ca;es R~~ll have an opl?ortunity of earning a fair hvmg '':as-e. It IS the Government's policy of providmg work and wages and putting money into eircula~ion so that people may be. able to buy frmt that has increased the pnces for fruit. I cannot understand whY hon. m.cmbers should object to the prope·~ re\\ul~tion and registration of the whole of this mdustry throughout the State. As I h~ve pointe~ out, both to·day and on )'rcywu~ . occaswns, we have found upon mqmnes that sa wmillers case millers and ~he J?roprietors of other 'mills are not' send· mg In the returns that they should to thE' Registrar·General and other autnoritic•s concerned.

What is the objection to the licensing of all these mills? As I said at the start the fee is not an imposition. The fee 'that ah11o't. all of the case millers will have to pay will. be Ss. a year. Where is the grave da:r:ger m that? Where is there any com· plamt to be made on that score? We desire th!'t every mill in Queensland, whether sawrmll, veneer and plywood mill case mill or other mill that is milling tiU:ber for sal~ should be licensed. Thus we shall be able more effectively to do what the hon. member for Murrumba points out is our duty. Once we know where all these mills are and what their output is, we shall know what is going on. That is what the Government should do. If they are not paying for the timber,

they should pay for it, and if they do not pay their employees proper award wages thev ohould do so. We shall be able to ha~e a "omplete record of all the mills in the State, and know where they are, what class of timber they are working on, and what their output is, and all they will have to pay will be 5s. a year. If anybody has made out a case for licensing these mills it is the hon. member who has moved the amendment.

Mr. DEACON (Cunningham) [4.2 p.m.]: The Minister has not proved his case yet. He has split up the case for licensing and is now bringing in these case mills. They are on the same footing as the fuel mills, but the fuel mills suit the people in the towns. If thr·y were licensed, the price of 11rewood would go up and the people in the town would growl. The hon. gentleman is concerned c,nly for people living in the city. These <"ase mills affect country people and help the primary producer. They haYe brought down the price of cases to a reasonable level.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Yes, but not a starvation level for the workers engaged in the industry.

Mr. DEACON : The hon. gentleman speaks of a starvation level. The hon. member fo1 Mm·rumba said it was not possible to get many cases at £4 per 100. The royalty on that is not much.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: What is the objection to their being licensed?

Mr. DEACON: Much of the timber comes from their own selection or land-practically all of it, and it is an inferior class of timber. They can get any amount of it at a royalty of ls. per 100 superficial feet.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : This Bill will not prevent you from getting that timber.

Mr. DEACON: Well, here is the firewood mill exempted, which is doing a similar class of business. It serves the town, but there is just the same class of mill cutting case timber and supplying the primary producer. A penalty is to be imposed on them and the other fellow will go scat free.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLJC LANDS: Five shillings a year.

Mr. DEACO::'\f : It does not stop at that. He might not get a license. The man in the bigger sawmills can wipe these smaller mills out. Their licenses might be refused -thev can be refused bv the Minister at any 'time without any reason whateverand that is where the trouble will come. Under this measure the price of fruit cases will most certainly go up. A fruitgrower cannot withhold his fruit from the market; be must accept the market price. It is a perishable product and it must be sold the day that it comes in.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The \Yorker must also receive a fair wage.

ML DEACON: The worker can get all the fruit that he requires but that does not affect the price of fruit in a glut. Even if the fruit realises only a little more thau It would coot to destroy it, it must be sold heca.use it cannct bo kept. Every assi:;tan~·J should be given to the fruitgrower. Anyono who knows ftnything about growing fmit knows the care that the fruitgrower rr,ust take with his trees and plants, how ho mmt work long hours, how he suffers

Mr. Deac.on.]

360 Sawmills Licensing Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Sawmills Licensing Bill.

heavy loss through damage by storms, hail, and frost. He is continually fighting the elements and endeavouring to combat pests, and after all that he does not know what his fruit will fetch when it is marketed. There is nothing to protect him ; nothing can protect him. There is nothing to ensure a stable market for fruit. I have seen pineapples at Beerburrum carted out in drayloads and dumped because it did not pay to send them to market. On ono occasion on a soldier settlement at Bcerburrum, I saw a stack of ten drayloads of pineapples that had been dumped in a paddock because the market price was not enough to cover eyen the cost of taking them there.

Mr. CoLLINS: There was no organisation.

Mr. DEACOJ'\: There was no organisation tl!"t could help them. Only the 'very best pme>tpplcs could find a market. 'l'oo manY pineapples were being offered for sale and. there \'>as not enough demand for thPrn. The hon. member for Cook must know the risks that .have to be incLured by primarv producers m marketing their prodLicts and that the mar~et yrice must be accepted whether they hke 1t or not. A pool cannot make a market. Fruit cannot be held off the market. because it is a pt'rishable product, and no hon. rnen1b()r opl)Osite can rn·ovo the contrary. Anyone w!m has an: .. thing to do with the land will admit that Rfter the farmer has gone through his tro':'bles and .con: bated natural pests I e is entitled to this httlo consideration. Jf the buyC'r of :fire1rood is to rcceiYe a <'Onccs.;ioil Pnabling him to sell cheap fuel there will bo no restriction on the wages that h<c will have to pay.

Question-" 'I'hat the words proposed to bo in,erted in clause 2 (Jir. Kick/in's amendment) be w in-crted "-put; and the Cam· l!litteo divided:-

AYES_. 12. Mr. Bell

Brand Deacon Edwards Maher :rvioore Muller

ii.Tr. BraRf:lington Bruce Dulcock Clark Co1Iins Cooper Dash Donnelly Duggan Foley Gair Gled~on Hayes He,·:y Hi>lop Hynes JeF"son

NOES~

Mr. Nicklin Russell Walker

32.

Tellers: Clayton Daniel

lVIr. Keogh King Larcombe M ann Mull an Pease Riorcfan Smith Taylor ·waters lilfellington \Villiams, H. Williams, T. L.

Tellers: Brown l\IcLean

Rc,olvcd in the negati,·e.

Clause 2, as read, agreed to.

Clauses 3 to 5. both inc:usive, agreed to.

Clause 6-" !Juration of Li"'ensrs, etc."

Mr. MAHER (West Jioretnn) [4.11 p.m.]: move the following amendment:-

"On page 3, after line 38 add the fo!lowing proviso:- '

' Provided further that upon the refusal by the Minister to grant any

[Mr. Deacon.

license or the renewal of any liccme, the applicant may, in the prescribed manner and within the prescribed period, appeal against such refusnl to an appeal board constituted as follows, namely :-

One member selected bv ballot by the licensed sawmiller"s operating outside the metropolitan area;

One member selected by ballot by the licensed sa wmillers operating within the metropolitan area;

A judge of the Supreme Court, who shall be the chairman of such appeal board.

' The respective members representing sawmillers shall be e!ected by ballot in the prescribed manner, each licensed sawmiller being allowed one vote in arcy such election. 'The deci· sion of the appeal board shall he m accordance with the decision of a majority of the members the_reof, and such decision shall be bindmg uvm and shall be given effect to by the Aiin ister.' ''

This is a democratic provision that, if accepted, will afford an opportunity to any individual who considers he has a grieyance or has been the victim of a \vrongful deci· sion, to obtain redress. The .Minister, and those associated with him, are never tired of proclaiming their belief in the principles of democracy. An opportunity is at ham! for hem. lllCllllwrs opposite to give cffccr to their alleged belief, by conceding ,the right of appeal to these people. A l'uiJlJC ~ervice Appeal Board has been constituted for the purpose of hearing appeals from public servants who feel that their merits have not been recognised, and others have been \Hongfu!ly promoted in preference to then1. In the samB "vay, t.l1e railway employee h<ts the right of appca1 from the decision of tho Comn1issioncr or the l\1inistcr. In many cases these appeal boards reverse the decision of the department or the Minister. There is no doubt that many men will be affected by this Bill who will feel that they lmvo a grim·ancc, and it is ouly fair that they should have the right of appeal.

:VIr. KIXG: You seek to give the balance of power to the sawmills.

Mr. ::\IAHER: There nre two different interests involved. One is the town sawmill and the other is the country sawmill. Each has its interests, which arc to a certain extent in opposition one to the other. Grievances will arise, and the opportunity is now at hand to make provision for an appeal board, whereby those who consider they have such a grievance will ha,ve theii· cases dealt with. Undoubtedlv. there will be millers who will be dissatisfied, and things arc sure to happen w.hen this Dill is proclaimed law that wi:l call for redress. and it is onlv reasonable tlwt the right of appeal should be made available to those who feel they have been unjustly treated. I am certain any sa wmiller would be satisfied to have his case considered by an appeal board constituted as suggested. I subm1t the amenrlment to the ;yJinister according!;-.

The CHAIR::\IAN : As the proposed amendment will impose a charge on the Crown not covered by the message from His Excellency the Governor, it is out of order, and I do not propose to accept it.

Sawmills Licensing Bill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Sawmills Licensing Bill. 3tH

=>'l:r. MOORE (,11tbigny) [4.15 p.m.]: An individual who puts his whole life savinu;e into a small sawmill has no right of redreos under this bill. If on the recommendation of the board the Miuister refuse< a license the 1nan's ocf'upation is taken away from him and lw has no right of appeal. In ordinary cmnrnon juotice he should at least be able to state his case. And, moreover, t h<· decision is to be made bv an interested party who i•, judge and jury all in one. He i~ an interested party -inasmuch as he is a seller of timber and it is to his advantage to get more revenue fOi' the Crown by the extra royalty received on the greater amount of timber sold. The :Minister can refuse to grant a license without giving a reason and the injured party cannot then start a sa>ymill. It does not seem fair that anv man should be prcveiJted from obtaining a'livelihood witbout an opportunity to state his >ide of the case. Moreover, every individual possesses ordinary cornmon law rights and cn•n a criminal is not treated in such an arbitrary fashion.

:'dr. FOLEY: Existing mills are not affcct"cl at all.

Mr. MOORE : \Yhat IS the good of saymg 1 hat? The Bill does not prm ide that l'll existing mills shall be reliccnsed. It is the regulations that provide for the dura~ion of the licPnse. rrhe Minister suggested that the licenses would be renewed on tl1e 30th St'ptembcr each ~'ear-thus showing· that it was to be an annual affair. In addition hen. members on the other side stated that there were 140 to 150 too many sawmills in Queensland and the obj cct of the Bill was to reduce tho number operating. How is that number to be reducPd '? It can only be done by the refusal to renew licenses <:nd it seems hard on the sawmillcrs r·onu ,.,reel that a person who is intere,ted shouid l1c the one who will decide wheth,•r or not a license shall be granted. It is not fair that a man should be thrown out of the industry without an opportunity to state his rase. The clause says that the MinisPr may refuse to give a license, from which thoro might be no appeal, even to the Minister in the event of injustice. The individual is given one and only one chance. When the Minister refuses a license there is no redress whatsoever. No hon. member ~itting in this Chamber would like to be placed in the position of some small sawmiller, who suddenlv fin<ls that his license is refused. •

Mr. FOLEY: You have not studied the Bill.

Mr. MOORE: Why not? Is there ar-ything in the Bill that provides for an appeal., There is nothing in the Bill to that effort. It states that the Minister, on the recommendation of the board, may refuse a license. It does not state that the sawmiller .shall be granted a renewal of his license. and if one may judge from th<' arguments advanced by hon. members opposite, that there are too many sawmills in the Stat<), there must be refusal to renew license~ if th0 number· is to be reduced. The hon. member for Cook stated that there were far too many sawmills in the :'-<orth and the industry should be so stabilised that the employees of the mills would have confidence to erec·t their homes near their employment. Ho also said that competition was too severe. The result must be that some of these mills

will be closed up. The clause refers only to the granting of licenses in the first insLHlCO. It is the regulation that provides the duration of the licenses, and when application is made for a renewal it is the Minister who is to decide on the recommendation of the hoard whether there shall be a renmvai or otherwise. The Bill prm-ides, exactly as I thought, that any man may be refused a license at anv time. In that event he must go out of 'business. That man should have an opportunity of putting his side of tho C>1Se before some unprejudiced person who is not interested in the business.

Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) [4.25 p.m.]: I consider that this clause is one of the greatest defects in the Bill. The Minister argued that as the Government own virtually all of the timber they are entitled to take charge of the licensing of mills. Suppose wo met with a shortage of local pine and it was necessary to import softwoods from overseas. A person might be desirous of erecting a mill to saw those logs from overse:ts. He might meet with opposition from the Sub-Department of Forestry, which might be prejudiced in favour of the larger mills and influenced by those mills to refuse to grant a license for the erection of that mill. The Sub-Department of Forestry is a sub-department of the Department of Public Lands. and. naturallv. the forestrv officers work in close co-oper~ation with thP Secretarr for Public Lands. It is natural to assun1e that the decision of the Forestry Board would, in most cases. be the decision of the Minister. He is an interested par'ty and would have an opportunity of exf'rcising his Yeto on the application of a miller who desired to saw imported logs. It is unfair that the miller should be placed in that position.

Again. a priYate individual may possess in Qtw(•nsland-and I dare say there arc rnany of them--large tracts of timber. He might desire to erect a sawmill to cut that timber. He might meet with opposition from th<> existing sawmills. which might have so much influence that the Forestrv Bnard and the Minister would prevent ·its erection. I sug-gest these supposititious cases so that the Minister may see the other side of the question. He must admit that he is taking very great power upon himself. IT P is constituting himself an a.ppeal board. It is not likelv that the :Ylinister will veto the decision· of the Forestry Board. As such wide powers are to be conferred. upon the Fores. try Board and the Minister. I think it is wise to have some independent tribunal to investigate complaints that may be made by disgruntled persons. I should not mind if that duty was left to a judge of the Supreme Court, or even to the Land Court. If that was done the actions of the Minister and the Forestry Board would not be open to suspicion, and I do not think the Minister desires to be placed in that unenviable position. For his own sake I think it would be wise if he consent0d to the appointment of 'omP independent tribunal to mete out justice to the applicant irrespective of the claims of tlw Forestry Board or of the individual.

I am afraid that we are drifting too far into a stage of despotic government. Too much power is going into the hands of various tribunals. The Government's legislation, ever ;incc they have been in office, has tended in that direction. All I want to see is that no injustice will be done to a

lJir, Russell.]

362 Sav.,mills Licensing Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Sawmills Licensing Bill.

person who desires to go into the sawmi!ling trade: We should not be persuaded to allow a monopoly of the business to rest in the hands of people already in the industry. At the same time the Government should bring about a system of licensing so as to bring the system of marketing under control. The Minister shouLd allow an appeal to qe dealt with by a tribunal other than himself. One object of this amendment has been to help the Minister to ensure that he will not be accused of being actuated by prejudice. His actions must be above suspicion, because this Bill has given him such enormous powers that it is possible he will meet with opposition in some qua~ters and it is important that everybody concerned should have sufficient confidence to know that he is not prejudiced in any way.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) [4.31 p.m.]: These licenses are not going to be dealt with in any hole and corner fashion, as the Opposition try to make out. They will be dealt with by the Land Administration Board and not the Forestry Board, which went out of existence years ago. The Land Administration Board is a commission with authority under " 1'he Official Inquiries Evidence Act of 1910," under which it can make recommendations and conduct independent inquiries. It is not my say-so that is going to be exercised in regard to licenses. Section 17 (1) of "The Land Acts Amendment Act of 1931" sets out the duties of the board-

" (a) Advise the Minister on matters of land administration generally and make such reports and recommendatiOns in regard thereto as may be deemed to be necesP<try from time to time ;

"(b) Subject to the Minister, be charged with the proper and effective administration of Crown lands, irrigation, and water supply;

" (c) Make any inquiry or investigation which the Minister or the board may think necessary or expedient so to make;

" (d) Exercise such other powers and perform such other duties as may from time to time be conferred and imposed upon it by the Governor in Council.

" (2) For the purpose of any inquiry or investigation the board, and each and every member thereof. shall hava the same powers, authorities and pro· tection as a commission under ' The Official Inquiries Evidence Act of 1910.'"

That is the authority this board has to deal with the lands of this State and the millions of pounds of assets in those lands. It is a board that was endorsed when the Opposition were in power. It has very extensive powers and it deals very effectively with matters under its jurisdiction. It is not a Forestry Board at all. The board consists of Mr. Payne, Mr. Melville, and the Director of State Forests. These men are not going to employ any casual methods in dealing with licenses. Each application will be investigated thoroughly. What more paramount body can hon. members want? Two representatives of the industry and a. judge! . The judge would probably qe gmded by the representatives of the industry.

[Mr. Russell.

We are about to bring down complementary legislation to create a proper central pool. When the pool board is appointed it will have certain powers in connection with licenses and everything else, but for the time being the authority will be the Land Administration Board. I could not agree to a proposal to superimpose on that board two representatives, of the industry and a judge of the Supreme Court, because the latter could be outvoted. There is nothing sensible in the suggestion. If we have sufficient confidence in the members of the Land Administration Board to entrust them with the administration of land matters, then we should entrust them with the licensing of sawmills, which is a comparativ,ely minot· matter. The decisions will not be given on my say-so. The Land Administration Board will have power to determine these questions. It is a statutory body, and even the salaries of its members are not voted in the ordinary way. 'I'hey are voted in the schedules to the Estimates, and not in the estimates of the Department of Public Lands, so that they are really placed in the same category as judges. They are officials of very high standing; in fact, they may be removed from office only by the order of Parliament itself. If they did anything wrong-and they would be doing something wrong if they did what the Opposition say they would-they can be dealt with by Parliament, and can be removed from office, but I cannot ,agree to the suggestion that there should be superimposed on them two representatives of the industry and a judge of the Supreme Court. It would mean that the two representatives of the industry would dictate the policy. This Bill is only the first instalment of the legislative programme to deal with the industry. Later on a new board will be created, and the industry will have a certain voioe in regard to all matters, but at present the administration will have to be in the hands of the Land Administration Board. which is a statutory body.

The CHAIRMAN: Hon members have got away somewhat from the principles contained in this clause. Many of the remarks that have been made would have been quite apt if clause 5, which has been passed, were now under discussion. The only principles contained in clause 6 are the duration of licenses and their renewal. I hope hon. members will confine their remarks to those two points.

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) [4.38 p.m. :] : I quite realise that all existing mills are to be licensed but I am concerned about the renewal of' the licenses. The Bill contains this definition of "Board"-

" The Forestry Board constit~t~d and appointed pursuant to the provrswns of ' The State Forests and National Parks Acts, 1906 to 1934.' "

There is no mention there of the Land Administration Board, nor is it mentioned in the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : If you will rea,d the Prickly-pear Land and Forestry Administration Act of 1932 you will see that the Land Administration Board is the Forestry Board.

Mr. MOO RE : One of the officers of the Sub-Dep,.,rtment of Forestry is on the Land Administration Board, just as an officer of the Sub-Department of Irrigation and Water Supply is also a member of the Land

Sawmills Lioonsing Bill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Sawmills Licensing Bill. 363

Administration Board, but it cannot be called the Forestry Board.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : It is, and I can quote you the section of the Act.

Mr. MOORE : Then I will sit down and !et the hon. gentleman do so.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) [4.39 p.m.]: The Prickly-pear Land and Forestry Administration Act states-

" The Land Administration Board constituted for the time being, pursuant to the provisions of Part Ill. of ' The Land Acts Amendment Act of 1931,' or any Act amending or in substitution of the same, is, and is appointed, and constitutes the Forestry Board by virtue of the provisions of 'The Prickly-pear Land and Forestry Administration Act of 1932.' "

Clause 6, as read, agreed to. Clauses 7 to 18, both inclusive, agreed to. Clause 19-" Regulations"-

Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) [4.43 p.m.J: Despite all the agitation of the last twelve months I am surprised to find that we still have this hateful attempt to govern by regulation. This clause is almost an exact replica of the section in "The Primary Producers' Organisation and Marketing Act of 1926." The object of regulations is to provide the machinery for carrying out the intention of an Act. The regulations should be relevant to those intentions, otherwise they should not be agreed to. I had occasion to complain recently of a very flagrant Yiolation of a certain Act by the publication and operation of a regulation under another Act. In this Bill the Government are not content with asking the Committee to agree to confer power on the Government to put into effect regulations covering the contents of this Bill, but have gone further. I rnoYc the following amendment :-

" On page 6, lines 38 to 42, omit the words-

' and where there may be in this Act no provision or no sufficient provision in respect of any matter or thing nece~sary or expedient to give effect to this Act providing for and supplying such omission or insufficiency.'''

It will be admitted that if we pass the first part of this clause down to the word "Act" the Government will possess ample power to put into effect regulations that will cover every clause of this Bill, but when the Government ask the Committee to agree to something that will nullify the whole Bill and stultify its provisions, it is time we objected. I protest against the inclusion of the words I have read.

This Bill confers enormous powers on the Sub-Department of Forestry. Its main principle is the licensing of sawmills for the purpose of bringing about some system of orderly marketing. We know that later on the Government intend to introduce legislation to enable a commodity board to be .-,reated to deal with timber. All timber produced in Queensland will be dealt with liko many of our primary products that are handled by different boards in Queensland. That may be a large thing, but this Bill is a simple one inasmuch as it provides for the licensing of sawmills as a preliminary.

Therefore, it is not necessary to insert in this Bill such a dragnet clause giving the Government power to go beyond the provisions of the Act. \Ve should protest against the continual use of the dragnet clause in most Bills the Go,-ernment introduce. The Premier was very sarcastic in referenC'c to the Acts passed under the Moore regime. He referred to one and said his Government could haYe carried on and did what they liked irrespective of the provisions of the Act itself. This is a similiar clause. It gives the Government extraordinary power, more power than is conferred by the other clauses of the Bill. If the Minister will agree to let the first part of the clause stand he will have ample power to put into operation regulations that will give full effect to this measure, for the first part of the clause reads-

" The Governor in Council may from time to time make regulations providing for all or any purposes, whether general or to meet particular cases, that may be convenient for the administration of this Act or that may be necessary or expedient to carry out the objects and purposes of this Act."

I say that is quite enough power to give to the Government. The GoYernment have no right to ask hon. members to agree to the other part of the clause, which gives them power to do whatever they wish whether it is within the scope of the Act or not. The p<>ople are tired of government hy regulation, but we are getting more and more of it every day. Because this provision has been embodied in preceding Acts is not a good precedent to follow.

I do not ·wish to labour the matter. I have said enough to prove to the Goverument that it is high time they got back to the system of orderly government "nd only take power to issue regulations that are covered by the Act. To go beyond the Act is a flagrant violation of the privileges of Parliament.

I hope the Minister will be satisfied with i he first part of the clause, which give' ample power to put a regulation into effect that will implement ever,- other clause of the Bill. The latter part of the clause 1s

unnecessary and should not be agreed to by the Committee.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) [4.49 p.m.]: I do not propose to accept the amendment. If we carry the clause as it is, we do not take power to alter the Act in any way. Regu· lations are only formal matters of procedure for carrying out the purpose of the Bill. All Governments have these clauses in their Bills. Even the famous Moore Government used them when they were in power, because they found it necessary to do so.

One point that is not stressed by hon. members opposite is that every regulation has to be tabled in Parliament and can be dPalt with here. I have been a member of the House for sixteen years and I cannot recollect one instance where an vone has taken exception to any of the regulations as tabled in the House .

Mr. MooRE interjected. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

Since I have been a Minister I have tabled numbers of them. I had to go through the formal procedure, and not in one instance has anyone raised a debate or objected to

Hon. P. Pease.]

364 Sawmills Licensing Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Sa1rmills Dicensing Bill.

the regulation. If it is necessary to provide for a trivial thing not affecting the principle of the statute, it is necessary to have power to do so by regulation. It would be absurd if we had to put another Act on the statute-book for that purpose. The regulations brought down must be in harmony with the principles of the Act under which they are made, as hon. members know, and no matter to what Parliament one goes, that of Great Britain, the Commonwealth. or any Australian State, it will be found that the procedure regarding regulations is similar. ·why, even the famous Moorc Government found it necessarv to have this regulation-making power. ·

From the controversy both outside and inside this Chamber the general public has gained the idea that the Government is governing by regulation. But this it not so at all. The regulations we issue are only those that are within the principles of a Bill that has been passed by Parliament. The general public fanc.1• that one can tack anything on to an Act merely by regulation. and they must be told that the only regulations that can be issued under an Act are those that embody the principles of that particular measure. This is not clearly understood. If this method was good for the Moore Government it is equally good for this.

Mr. RUSSELL: It is not good.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The hon. member's party found it good during the three years they were in power and so do the present Commonwealth Government, the members of which are of the same political party as the hon. member. The British Government also find it is a good method. To tell us that we shall not have this power is ridiculous and the sooner the outside public understand the basis of the regulations the better. I cannot too strongly emphasise that the regulations simplv embody the principles contained in a Bill that has been passed by Parliament. If it were not so there would be grounds for complaint. Furthermore, a regulation has to be tabled in the House and can be objected to by any hon. member. Assuming that some trivial contingency has to be provided for, is it reasonable to demand that a new Bill be brought down? The Government of the day naturally have the majority and the Bill would be passed, of course. The people have placed their trust in the Government in power and the remedy is in their own hands. What would be the use of doing that which the hon. member for Hamilton proposes? It would emasculate the measure. He must not forget that he sat behind a Government that found it necessary to have this regulation-making power. I do not think that the people outside this Chamber who talk about the iniquity of g-overnment by regulation realise the procedure, or know that all regulations can be objected to and if neces. sary discussed, and-most important of allthat they can only follow the principles contained in a statute.

Mr. MAHER (Wes~ Moreton) [4.54 p.m.]: Notwithstanding the remarks of the hon. gentleman the method of government by regulation is not at all good.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : If it is not, why does the Commonwealth Parliament do it?

[Hon. P. Pease.

}1r. MAHER: The procedure ill the Commonwealth Parliament is tota!l,· diffcrPllt from that of the Queensland Parliament. In the Federal sphere the regulations that are formulated in terms of the Act must come bdore a select committee of the House for consideration. The select committee can object to them, in which event thev are considered by Parliament generally in due course. They are not placed at the bottom of the business.paper, as happens with r«otions objecting to regulations of whic·h notice is given by the Opposition in Queens· land. The hon. member for Aubigny lodged his objection against certain regulations under the Heavy Vehicles Act, but thP Government conveniently placed his motioll at the bottom of the business-paper and it. \Yas not discussed.

}lr. }loORE: \V<' were only allowed ro \'OtC'.

Mr. MAHER: That is so. There was no discussion whatever on the demerits of the regulations. Everybody knows that the transport regulations met with a great outcry from the people outside. The dairy r<)g:ula.tions are meeting with tremendous opposition throughout the dairying districts of the State. There is no constitutional method whereby these matters can be discussed in this House. Certainly we can bring forward motions of objection, but the Government, finding it undesirable, inconvenient, and not politically expedient to have such objections discussed in Parliament, give no opportumty for debate. The outcry that Parliament is brushed aside, and not regarded at all in determining the rights and wrongs of a whole series of regulations, is quite justified. The dairy regulations a.re almost as great in volume as the Acts themselves. Yet we have no means of !)ringing our objections before Parliament, except during the Address in Reply ! Once a year !

The question of government by regulation is a serious matter. The hon. member for Hamilton is entitled to bring forward his amendment. Any hon. member who examines clause 19 of the Bill must agree that there is ample power in the first part of the clause to meet the legitimate needs of the Government. Let us read it carefully-

" The Governor in Council may from time to time make regulations providing for all or any purposes, whether general or to meet particular cases, that may be convenient for the administration of this Act, or that may be necessary or expedient to carry out the obj,ects and p-urpose& of this Act. . . . "

Is that not ample? But the Minister is not satisfied. He goes further-

" . . . and where there may be in this Act no provision or no sufficient provision in respect of any matter or thing necessary or expedient to give effect to this Act providing for and supplying such omission or insufficiency."

That is redundant, in the first place. It only emphasises what is contained in the former part of the clause. But it gives the Government an opportunity of creating a new Bill because of the " omissions " and " insufficiencies." New principles could be introduced under the latter part of t'hat clause. Any reasonable-minded member of the Committee will agree that the Government's need in the matter of regulations is well met up to the word " Act " where it secondly occurs.

Sawmills Licensing Bill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Questions. 365

There is every justification for this Committee protesting against the Government taking more powers than are necessary.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : It is to give effect to " this Act."

Mr. MAHER: The Government have that in the first part of the clause. They do not need the extra powers contained in the latter part.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : You used the argument that that does not give us any further power. So why worry about it?

Mr. MAHER: It has given the Government power to go much further by means of regulations issued under the heading of "omissions" or "insufliciencios." We have every right to make this protest, and I support the amendment moved by the hon. membe1· for Hamilton.

Amendment (1lfr. Russell) negatived.

Clause 19, as read, agreed to. Clause 20-" Orders in Council and Regu

lations"-

Mr. MOORE (ilubigny) [5.2 p.m.]: 1 wanted to move an amendment on this clause. It introduces a new principle. It says-

" If the Legislative Assembly within the next fourteen sitting days after any Orders in Council or regulations have been so laid before such House resolves that such Orders in Council or regulations or any of them ought to be annulled, the same shall after the date of such resolution be of no effect."

That is still further limiting the power of Parliament. It is usual to provide that objection shall be made within fourteen sitting days and then the whole of the rest of the session gives an opportunity to discuss them. Although of course the Minister knows quite well that opportunity for discussion is denied to the Opposition. An hon. member may move a resolution but it is put on the business-sheet and that is the end of it.

As for saying that regulations are in conformity with the Act the hon. gentleman will remember that one of his own supporters, the hon. member for Maranoa, referring to a certain Act of Parliament, said that it was not the Act that was objected to but the regulations that were issued afterwards, and the reason was that the regulations went infinitely further than the Act.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : And they were objected to and never became law.

Mr. MOORE : They were not objected to and did become law, but the Government were afraid to put them into operation. They tried to put them into operation in the first place but met with such a protest that they dropped them. Some people, who unfortunately obeyed the law and paid their fees for registering water conveniences, never got their monev back at all. The others were not made "to pay.

I think we are going to have regulations that we shall not know anything about. They may impose terms and conditions for licenses and we shall have no means of knowing what they are. I do not object if the House gets an opportunity of discussing them if they are objected to; what I object

to is the principle that Parliament puts into an Act the right to object to xegulatior" and the Government virtually takes the right away from them. Why restrict th<' right still further? This is the only Act of Parliament that I have seen in which this restriction has been made. It is only cutting down the time. It is foolish to follow such a course. Sometimes a vote is taken and hon. members do not know what they are voting on because there has been no opportunity for discussion. If any member wants to object he should be able to do so and then have the opportunity of giving his reasons.

Clause 20 agreed to. The House resumed. The CHAJRMA:\" reported the Bill without

amendment. Third Reading of the Bill made an Order

of the Day for Tuesday next.

The House adjourned at 5.6 p.m.

legislative assembly thursday september · a new pastora,l development lease ha,s been gunted for a...

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