Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 6 AUGUST 1912

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

566 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanation.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEl\iiBLY.

TUE~DAY; 6 AuGusT, 1912.

The SPEAKER (Hon. W. D. Armstrong, Lockyer) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PAPER.

The following pap~r, laid on the table,. was orderf -! to be printed :-

Report of thf' Police Investment Board for the year ended 31st December, 1911.

APPROPRIATION BILL No. 1. As~ENT.

The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a m•-,;mge hom the Governor, intimating that the Deputy Governor, on the 16th July, had. ~'>ented to this Bill on beLit!f of His Maje,;t_,-.

PERSO='JAL EXPLANATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::"JDS (Han. E. H. Macartn,ey, l'oowong) said: }',fr. Speaker,-vVith the permi."-ion of the Hou,e, I -desire to make a Io•cr.'(}nal explana­ticn.

The SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. mem~Jer be allowed to make a per•-onal explanation?

HoXOURABLE ?,Lui.C:BS: Hen, hoar !

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Mr. Spcitker,-On Thursday e'ening last, during my absence from the House, and while the HousJ was in Committee, certain commectts were made in regard to my posi­tion as a member of the Cabinet which I think call for so:He notice on my part. The hon. m·Jmber for Bm·coo rderred to my position -as .a member of the Co.binet on the one hand and as .a, mecnber of .a firm of <elicitors, acting for tl,e Br;o;bane Tramways Company, LimiLd, on the other hand. He also •,ugge.,ted that I, by reason of my posi­tion as a member of .#that firm, was a',' are of certain information which h<3 was d<3~irous of obtaining per medium of a serit:s of ques­tions -dirfd,,d to the Chic f Secretary on be­half of the Attorney-General, and with the ans'• ·drs to which he '"''s dissatisfied. Dealing with ttc latter matter first, I merely wish to say, the fact is, that boyon.l hat I might h~ ve inferrf d fr-o·n the han. member's ques­tions, I had no such k"tcwledge. Since I joined tlw Ca':Jinet I have been unable to t::ke ?·n active part in thD profc.,ional basi­nos> of my firm. As to m:· position .as a mem­ber of the firm of solicitors for the company on the 01 9 hand, and a a member of the Cabinet on the other hand, I would say that for ·n1~.ny :,-<=mrs past m~• firm have conducted the compam.-'s legal work. I am not in-. tere··tod to th<> extent of one single shilling in the Brifl.Jane Tramwacs CGmpany beyond the mere profe,,ional connection "hich might exist letw.cen such undertaking and any other firm of solicitors. I have been .a member of this House rinc0 1900, and -during that time n1att.9rs have carne Ui_J Jor discu,,-;ion in which my firm have bren profehiona!I:;- interested, and never at any time haVf; I either ap­proached or endeavoured. directlv or in­directly, to influence either Minister or

Question8, [6 AuGUST.] Questions. 567

l\1inisters or member or members, or taken .any part by Yoice or vot0 in any such 1natters. (Hear, hear!) As a member of thcc. Cabinet I h "d tak•?Jl 1<) part in the discussion of any matter or int0rBst which was in anywise repre~:~nt-c-d by my fir1n, and in connvction with the .d(;1art·.wnt I u·imi21isier I have re­fu·.r:d to deal with nmtteB in which my firm are profe<si·on<lly conc'r•:ed. Qnite apart from m5~ own per."onal feeling~ ot attiturle, I feel confident that neith<-r the k ader of 'the Go·.·ernmcnt nor mv other colleagues wr.uld countdnance .1 dirrcront attituC'e. Profes­siollal interc 3ts ar0 but limited in their nature. There is strol' g line of demarca­ti.,n, perheps, beheen a professional interest and a nersonal interest. I have never sought refuge· in sur-h distihction, but, on the other hmd, I have at nll times advoctted a high stand"rd of politiceJ conduct.

GOVER:;:;::,IENT 1IE~iBERS: Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC L.\NDS: When I find that my professional or per­sonal inter<: ;ts conflict "ith such a standard of political <'onduct, I will, I hope without -waiting for dirc<'tion, take such action as will remov<l an:v doubt from the minds of the most sceptical. I have no desire to tresp.-, : beyond the legitimat.3 boundaries of personal explanation.

GOVER7-JMEXT ME::rmERS : Hear, hear !

QUESTIONS. COST OF HAULAGE ON BOWEN .JETTY.

Mr. J\IAY (Flind• ,.,) asked the Treasurer-" 1. What is it cost in v the l\Larine De­

partmcut per ton to br-ing ('argo to and from the jetty head, Bowen, from lOth June, 1912, to· dat·"· ,,·ith non-union labo.ur?

"2. v\'hat wno, the cost per ton pre­vious to lOth June, 1912, when union lahoL!r was employe·d on the Govern­mont haula~;e on Hie Bowen Jetty?"

The TREASURER (Han. W. I-I. Barnes, Bulim~:t) replied-

" 1. ls. 2~- d. "2. ls. 2-Pod.''

BEER PIPES IN HOTELS.

M:r. LAND (Balonnc) asked the Home Sccretat"Y~

"Hov.- is the Health Act administered in CP!lnection \Vi~h beer pipes in hotels?"

Th0 HO::\lE SECRETARY (Hon. J. G. Arpel, Al'rrt) rPplied-

" Section 99A (2) of the Health Act (consolidccted) provid,;s the necess~ry legal ro·; ·r, but the provision-; of that section cannot be effP-Jti vely enforced until the required offi2ers have been appointed, provision for which is being made in the Estirn..:._te.::; for the preseHt financial year."

TENDERS FOR CONSTR'COTING DREDGE

''REMOIL4..''

1\Ir. FIHELLY (Paddi1;gton) asked the Treasurer-

" 1. \Vhat are the names and ad­dresses of the firms who were invited to tender for the construction of the dredge ' Remora' ?

"2. What are the names and ad­dresses of the firms who tendered?

" 3. 'What wore the amounts of the vario,us tenders?

"4. Does the Government purpose pur­chasing a dredge for use at Cairns or elsev:, here under sin1ilar conditions 't

" 5. If so, are tenders going to be called by public advertisement, or is the invitation SJ·-tem reeently initiated going to. prevail?

"6. Is the policy of the Government designed to exclude or wiil it have the effect of excluding British firms from und··rtaking such world"

The 'I'REASURER replied-" 1. 1\!J:essrs. Simons and Company, Ren­

frew, Scotland; Ules,rs. Lobnitz and Company, Renfrew, Scotland; l't1essrs. Fbming and Fergu,on, Paisley, Scotland; l'tiessrs. Ferguson Brothers, Port Glasgow, Scotland; Alcc-srs. Smulders, Schiedam, Holland; Messrs. Conrad, Haarlem, Hoiland; J\I0ssrs. Smit and Son, Rotter­dam, Holland; Hessrs. F. Schichau, Elbing, Prus,ia.

"2. 'The above firms tendered, with the m:ception of Smit and Son, who re­gretted th.•ir inability to do so on account of the work they had in hand.

"3. 1\feF~rs. Simons and Company, £53,800; Messrs. Lobnitz and Company, £57,970; Messrs. Fleming and Ferguson, £47,800; 'i\:J es· rs. Ferguson Brothers, £52,500; l\Ie,-lr'·· Smulders, £55,fl!i0; Me"r'S. Conrad, £(.:13, 000; l'tfessrs. Schichau, £45,800.

"4. The Cairns H8"rbour Board, on the advice of the Engineer for Harbours i:md Rivers h,, s entert•d into a contract for a drcdce'r under •.:~!lil.u- cunditions.

"5. n :,; the ruling pr,;ctice in ship­building to invite leading firms to tender.

''G. No."

SIGNING • OF DOCUMENT BY NINETY-SEVEN

TRAMWAY EMPLOYEES.

Mr. RYAN (Barcoo) asked the Chief Sec­retary-

" 1. Did the employees of the Bris­bane Tram"I':Jys Company, Limited, sign any document before lllr. Neilson, J.P., or any other J.P., or police n1agistrate, on or :1bout Monday, 29th July?

"2. If so, where; and what was the nature of the said document and for what f;urpose?

'' 3. \Yas not the inquiry court closed to the public while the sc,id documents were being sign~d?

"4. Hm,- mai•Y employees of the Bris­r·ane 'fr::lnways CompJ.Ly, Limited, signed the documPnt referred to?

"5. Did the Gcwernment give any o:uth?rity that the room used for the mqmr:.- court should be uc.c.J on the occctsion of the signing of the said docu­ment?"

The PHEMIER (Han. D. F. Denham, O.dey), for the Attorney-General, replied-

" 1. The Attorney-General has no know. ledge of the matter, and has no control over Mr. Neilson or anv other justice of the peace in the matter of witnessing signatures to do~uments.

"2, 3, and 4. See No. 1. ''5. No."

568 Min~s Regulation, Etc., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Commonwealth Deposit Bill.

WAGES BOARDS IN CENTRAL DISTRICT.

Mr. LARCOTh!BE {K'"'11J) aslred the Sec­retary for Public Works-

" 1. Have the employees in the Cen­tral district en;;aged in the following callings, n;,mely :--Ironworking, tinsmith­ing, and p dnting, made application for a wages Loard in accordance with the Wages Board Act?

"2. If so, on what date~ rc.spectively were the applications lodgf :] ?

"3. Have wa~ es boe~rds be<Jn granted in any of the callings named?"

'fhe SE:JRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. W. H. Barnes, B1llimba) replied-

" 1. Yes. "2. Ironworking, 7th November, 1911 ·

tinsmithing, 13th o~tober, 1911; painting: 25th August, 1911.

"3. No."

TRADE COUPONS BILL. lXITIATION.

On the motion of tho TREASURER, it was formally r. ~olved-

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itself into a Committ'Ce of the \Yholo to consider of the desirable­ness of introducing a Bill to pre vent tho u~e of trade coupons."

REGISTRATION OF FIRMS ACT AME:\'DMENT BILL.

INITIATION.

On the motion of the TREASURER, it.,. was formally resolved-

." That ·the liouse will, at its nJxt sit­tmg, resolve itself into a Committe,, of the Whole to consid0r of the desirable­ness of introducing a Bill to amend the Registration of Firms Aet of 1902."

LOCAL AUTHORITIES ACTS AlviEND­MENT BILL.

INITIATION.

On the motion of the HOME SECRE­TARY, it was formally resolved-

" That the I--:Iou '·0 will, at its nc"'rt sit­ting, resolve itv:;If into a Comn1ittee of the V!hole to consider of the desirable­ness of introdw i.ng a Bill to amend the Local Actthoritics Acts, 1902 to 1910 and to rerJeal the Sto1 "e Carrie :res Act of l835 certain seetions of the Carriers Act of 1866, and the Carriers Act of 1866 .l3_n1endment Act.''

DRAINAGE II<' MI:\CES BILL. THr,,,; READING.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES {Han. J. G. Appel, Albert) this Bill was read a third time, and ord,,~·ed to be transmitt~d "to the Legislative Council, by message m the usual form.

MINES REGULATION ,\CT AMEND­MENT BILL.

THIRD READING. On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR

·MINES, this Bill was read a third time, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council, by message in the usual form.

COMMONWEALTH DEPOSIT BILL.

The TREASURER movPcl-

" That the I-io"lse will, at its next sit­iing, rF:~olve itself. in+,J a Cmnmit~e~ of the, Y\-.-ho:,~ to c n·:.der of tho dcHra"Jle­ilf'~,:; of in~rc-dt::.cing a Bill ~o authorise the acce·1tanc~ :. the Tl"CJ'' .crcr of the State of QueomlaLd of the .'Uhl of ~ 1 on,coo hom tha C''Yllmon•• 2alth of .A ... u'stralia as a fixed de:hJsit for on° year fro1n tho 5th JY1ar-.J1, 1912. hl"'ll'ing inter­e,~t vt the rn,te of J$3 lOs. pC;r centum pe.:· anntun.''

:Mr. RYAN: I ca!lcJ "Xd formal" to this motion in the ho;1o that the Treasurer v;,7 ould f..~o hi; a:.· to giv-· f0l11C explana~ion of tho ;:,ear;·:n·-iell lh wh 1.t wrs the obJect of the Bill. There i. no doubt that the GoY ,~r;:.n1ent did 'vhai, I :u1ight deEcribe as an unbwful act in March, 1912, when they borrowed "£1,000,000 from the Cm~lmon­wealth, and it would bo

1 a-, ;~-ell -If the

Trea :;urcr £" :.t ve su:.no exp.~.ana L,IOn of the rnc;:;,sure no~~; in ord, r to facilit~l-te discus-8ion of the Bill later on. Thot is my or;ly desire. If the Tron•n.1rer c >·nnot speak again, perh~ps "Jmeone el'.'" will give the explana­tion.

The PREMIER : I may say that arrange­ments were in train for obtaiqing this money in the old country in the usual way. The Treasurer had left Brisbane with the object of conferring with the Agent­General before that gentleman left Ade­laide for the old country. Whilst the Treasurer was on his way to complete the arrangements with the Agent-General, and before he reached Melbourne, I received a telegram from the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, saying that he had £1 000 000 which he wished to plac.e at fixed deposit for one year, and asked me if I had any use for it, and to na.me the price. I replied to him that the Treasurer Wai then on his way to Melbourne, and would call on him on the following day, which he did, and he completed the arrange­ment with the Prime Minister for the £1 000 000. The arrangements rderred to wo~ld 'have involved expediting the negotia­tions in the old country. This arrangement with the Commonwe,dth invdwcl no . in­comenience, and it y·,1s a mutual obhga; tion, becau.,,e the Prime. Minister of the Coinmonwealfh \,·as def,rous of loanihg £1,000,000. It was not convenient for me to receive ihe money which he had offered me the previom year, and I decl~ned. it; and it might have appeared boorish If I refused to accept the money on this occa­sion. I mav say that since that period he has offered· us money again, and we have no use for it. That is simply the explana­tion in connection with the· borrowing of that £1,000,000. The arrangements would have been completed with the Agent­General, as the Treasurer was on his way to Adelaide to do so, and when I got the telegram from the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, I telegraphed to the Agent· General stating that we had made other arrange~ents with the Commonwealth.

Mr. RYAN: What is the Bill fo~?

The PREMIER: At that time we had no right to issue Treasury bills. Had the

Commonwealth Deposit Bill. [6 AUGUST.l Oommonwca~th Deposit Bill. 560

Bill which we F<>sed in July been on the statute-book we could then have purchased £1,000,000 worth of Treasury bills, but we ha_d no such authority._ As we wish to do thmgs decently and in order-(Opposition laughter)-we are introducing this Bill to cover the amount which we borrowed for twelve months. We borrowed the money, and we ask the House to pass this Bill so that next March we shall be able to return to the Commonwealth Tre:otsurer the amount of money which the Commonwealth Govern­ent advanced to us in :March last.

GoVEi.~N3-1EXT )y-EJ.i.J:2:R'~: l{c->tr, hear l

Mr. PAYNE (Mitchell): On reading this motwn over, rt a;Jpf•ars to me to be bOmewhat misleading, and it is misleading to a great number of members in this House. As the motion reads, it is giving the Treasurer power to accBpt £1,000,000 from the Com­monwealth Prime Minister. Why, we all know that the Treasurer has had the money for some time.

The TREASURER : Read on. You will see it is for the money borrowed on the 5th March, 1912.

Mr. PAYNE : I will read it my own way, and to my mind it is misleadiqg. (Government laughter.) It is nearly time that this House got into an honest way of putting motions.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. PAYNE: And it is nc"rly time that ~his ~ouse got into an honest way of deal­mg wrth the finances of this State. If the Goveri)ment can borrow £1,000 000 from the Comm<;mwealth Prime Minister without any at:tJ-:orrty, why cannot they also borrow ten mrlhons of money from anyone else without the authority of this House? I am only a humble member of this House-simply a humb,Ie member-and that is my opinion. I obJect to the way the finances of the country have been managed by the Denham Government for the past few· years. I will show how this motion is misleading. It reads- ·

" That the House will, at its next sittimc, rt solve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirable­mss of introducing a Bill to authorise the acceptance by the Treasurer of the State of Queensland--"

"Acc,,ptanc'' by the TrPasurer of Queens­land!" One would imagine that he has got to rer;•ive this money· y<ct, and we all know that he has had it for some time.

Mr. LENNON: This is only a white­washing Bill.

Mr. PAYNE : It does not seem the clean .and straight way to look after the finances ·of the country. As a humble member of -this House--(Government laughter.)

The PRE~HER: Hear, hear! Uriah Heap. Mr. PAYNE: \Ve know that the finances

'Of the country are in a bad way. The PRE~HER: No.

Mr. PAYNE: What is the good of the country district;; sending representatives here? We are told that the power that we always have is the holding of the purse strings, but what is the good of members being sent here when we allow people to borrow money without authority at all? I am surprised at a motion like this being allowed to go through even without some

opposition from the Government supporters. The whole thing is illegal. The whole thing is wrong, and it is not the way that business men would carry on the business of the country.

Mr. HAJYHLTO="f (GregJry): There is no doubt that wL.ct the hon. membe1· for Mit­chell sa: sit quite right. This motion is r,rislead­ing. It is wrongly wo.:d.,d. Instead c{ the "\\"Ords "authorinJ the aC( Pptance " it should bo "validah~ th-.: 11_;:j,nce." It has al" a.ys b8en said that Pulia_nent controls the purse­strings o£ the country. 1--Iov;,- ca ~; -.,-, o f:ay that ParliaE' -nt concrols the purse-strings

·when th~· Go\<~rLinG:nt, ;,vit-~1out [4 p.m.] any authority from Parli,;ment,

can go and borrO·\' a :million of money, and then ask the House to pass a men.curo to validab its action? It is q·1ite possi~~lP for a Go, -,rnmc::1t li~:-o h~vv. at tho pn·s,_:nt tirne, wit~_l a follo\Y~rrg wl1ich \vill not OP'Jll their mouths, to corne do;vn and borrow ten millio11s of money, ar""-.1 not one of their SUl_;portors y,rill g·ct up ~n.:l denv.Ince it. This io an unconstitutional thine.:. I do not say that if the House had h·ccil asked they vvould not hav0 g'i.Ye:l theil' :-:,"'tnt tJion. It is not sufficient to s.1-y the Government Were in extr0mis when they bol'l'01'<8d this money; they must ha:nJ be~ n, or el~3 they can do what they like with their own ·UP­porters.

Mr. E. B. C. CoRSER interjected. Mr. HAMILTO::\f: It is quite evident the

hon. member for l\11aryborough will say "Hear, hear!" l·> anything which the Go­vernment do, no matter how unconstitutional it is. \Ye have beforo this be . ._n asked to authorise the expenditure of £100,0~0 by the Government which tho House had given them no authority to speucl; now we are asked to validate the borrvwing of a million of money without authority from Parlia­men. If member; on the other sido are willing to sit without protesting against it, we on this oide feel that it is our duty to protest against this action.

Mr. HUNTER (J:faranoa): There are one or two matters in c~Jnnection ·with this tnotion which I wish to refer to. The first is that the 'l'rc:1sur• r doe3 not tell the truth--

Tho SPEAKER: Order! Mr. HUNTLR: Thq real truth in connec­

tion with thi., IHotion. If the hon. gentle­man really asked the House to do what he wanted, lw would say that this is a Dill to validate or inden1nify t-n _.ction of the Government w-hich vva-; 7:nconsiitutional; but nrobabh- he d;Je8 not like to ::dmit that; it does no"t sou. d .,-.-11. Tb Trea _ J.rer might have told US how this mone_) \YaS Sl•ent, and why it was he v;antod the m')ney. \Ve were told a little while ai;o that at the end <;: the financial ye,~r tLo Govcrnn1ent had a million and a half of money on hand. If there was a mii!ion and a half on hand on the 30th J unP, where was tho need for bor­rowing a r,.o]Jion of mo:1ey on the 30th March?

The TREASURER: The s:atcnwnt made is abcolutely C"Jrrect, <'.S th:_ figures of the Auditor-General prove.

Mr. HUNTER: I am not c:o:tbting that. I do not suppose the Treasurer is so foolish as to Cc)me and tell the House that the figures which the Auditor-Gcne,·al will give later on are "rong. \Vhat I ask him is this : If he had a million and a half on the 30th

J1f r. [:{ unter.]

570 Comrnonwealth Deposit Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] CommonU"t'alth Dcpos~t Bill.

June, and was calling the House together early in July to rot authority to g-ive 4 pH cent. for a £2,00J,OOO loan, whi<h consent was to Ld c;;blocl to Lmclon, where was the need to bon O"\V a n1illion oi nwney on 5th March? That means paying 3k per c~nt. on a million oi mow••.· for three months which is not "·anted. l'ltcre is sowcthing eh•· be­hind this, and, to my u1ind, it i•· this: if tho G-, cmment had not b··en offr•recl that million oi moncv th-. auld not have been able tu go to tho com1' ry.

OPPOdiTI0:-1 MEl.IBER''': Hear, hear ! and Gov··lrllmPnt laug·hter.

ThP PHE:.IIER: The arrangements for ob­taining the monO\ w'"'e on the. point of con­summation. vYhat nonsense you are talking·!

Mr. HU~TER: The hon. gentleman may have hid opinion regarding that; I have my opinion :1 ~Jout his action in connection vvith this particular matter. I am sati .. fied that the Government h,rve involved the country in a three mvnth-' interht bill on a million of money that was not w<~ntecl, simply to make it s.~ fe to go to tho country on the 27th April. Had they not obtained that money the Govcrnmt·'1t would have b"en compelled h call Parliament together earlier in tho yc r-(GoYernmwt laughter)-to have got pFTnlib:.,il'n to ~rive 4 per cent. on the £2,000,000 lo.::n, and in thst way ~hey would have beell abl.e to finance !hem'·"lveF. It would uot have he<n safe to I ave delayed mPetin~· Parliament till July under different conditicns, and the only thing •::hich made it pr>sih'~ to hold !he election :t the time it took place v-ns the loan from the Conlmon­" ealth Governm., ,t.

The PrE:1IIETI: \Ve had it arr~·nged for in­depen<;.': ly of that.

Mr. H'G::\'TER : The hon. gentleman may tell ;;s all '·''•out that •"0rt of thing, but we do not knT,- 1.vh~t his arrangements -were: all we knave is that a million of money was borro"\vtd 1-\ hich w<>~ not requi1·ed, so as to make it FC~G for 'he Govornn1ent to go to the co•121try at the timo they v. ,,nted. A promi'e was given to the House that Parlin­mont ,,-oul·i t> f'alled to,cother earlier in th0 year. \Yhy \V:..s that n,-tte~r,d? Because it suited the Govcn.ment better to go to th:: country than LJ me.::·t the House and conduct th0 busim ·.'.

The PRE"~UER: It showed judgment.

Mr. HUNTER : I will admit the han. gentleman sl·D'<ecl diplomacy and judgment, but that does not justifv his adion in this connection. "\Ve are toid there was a mil­lion and a-half in the Treasury on the 30th Jcme. If tho Ho'lSe had met before permission could have be.;n got to borro,_,; tho £2 000,000 at 4 per cent., and the Go­vernment "Juld have had time tv c-o on with the ordinary businc .:q of the cotmtry and m0et its liabilitie.c \Vhcn the Government do these thirws, and come dov. n in this cool way and ask -us to !'?15,..: a resolution to en­able th~m to bmrow money, v:hich they have a1rc:d, borrowed :•.nd pa1cl 3k per cent. interrot on it, I think it is right that the action should be called by its proper name, and that the country should be told about it.

Mr .. THEODOR.E (Chill-zqoe): It seems to me, 1f we <.i'e to have •anv re!rard to the previou, sh.tements of the. Premier upon the que•tion of loan money, that he has been dec,,iving the House during the ses­sio.n. Some time ago the Premi.er told us

[1lfr. Hunter.

definitely, and he reiterated tho rcmark this­a:ternoon, that the Uo·· ernrne:1t have not yet had any difficulty re<':ucling tho procur­ing of Joan money; "n1 h•:J to)d us just now that 't was out of a desire not to exhibit any bo,orish spirit to the Federal Govern'llcnt that he accq;tecl th1s Joan. (Op­position laurrhter.) As a matter. of fact, h~s every action since he has occupie~l the P<?SI­tion he C•.CUDies have bePn arhonS wluch can be interpreted as thope whieh exhil·:t. a boori,:, snirit against i\Ir. Fislwr's Go.­vernment. ft seems to me th:,t that state­mont of his as an exuwn br borrowing the million pounds at that time is on a par· "ith hio ;tatmt,ent made a few 'V<'eks ago rcc-arding the necessity to sus!J!'nd tlle Stand­ing Orclns, in order to get to. London before t!Hl Lundon financiers left fo.r the Contment, in order to borrow monev at 4 per cent. It seems to me that no -body o£ ):msine~& men ccould pursue the methods ,, ;nch this Government arc apparently prepc"red to pursue in matters of finance; no eomp:tny would pcr:!lit their manager to tranHct such a businuJs "'" thiy. It strikes me •'-& bemg something which should no:t h~ve been done, and there i;; no ner··'·o:h for It. It appe'ara on the :;;,,{' m1ent of the Premier-and I think the Trea:.urer him··c>lf h"'s also dwelt. on thi& matLr-' .. at tl1is moi.Py could have hcen ob­tai,·,·d in Enthncl ,,t 1i per cent. at the time it was ,r, urecl from the Feder1.l Go­vern:ment. .\m 1 ju-,tified in a :'~arning tLat?

Th B TREA, L'RER : I will answer you in the pro.per plac·1.

l\Ir. THEODORE: The Premier himself a ·3mned that attitude this afternoon. He said ne~ot='ltions ere in train, R.nd in order no.t to exhibit .a boori :h spirit to the Federal Government they decided k> break off nego­tiatio.1s and take the million-pound loan. He !eel us to unclersta.ncl thc.ct they could get this money in England for forty years at 3~ per <''\llt., and he simply declined to accer~t that ma:re favourable loan for th~ purpoR•'• o.f R"etting- a short-elated loan at 32 per cent. There is (.;::,n1cthing Bhadv about the '"hol< thin2', and which ~:ous not been ex­plained, either by the Premier or t.he TrBa­surer. Probably "hen we have the Blll before us we shall a· k for carne clefinit~ information u r o.n ihis matter.

. Mr. HARDACRE (Leich!wrdt): I think the motion wants amenclin;;-, and I pr<;pose that the \',ore! "authori,e" should be omitted, with the view of substituting "validate." It ·vill cerbinly then me:.tn what i~ says; as it is now, it cannot Ine;tn what 1t sa~s, becr:.u'··C it, sac:' that it is "a Bill to anthorrse· the aorcptancn bv thf' Tr<:a,uncr." 'the Trea­sun,,· h;_, 0, a1reac-iy ac\:'epted it.

li.Ir. HA"ILTON: Aid ;;pent it l\Ir. H.\RDACRE: Spm.t R<"<me of it. It

c:tnrot b~ trnthfulhT s::-,id tha· this is a Bill to authori~~,~ e1.penditure, whr·n it is a ~ready do:·.:.o; it L> to ~~a1idatc h~·,t h"!S ~ .. -~n done outside tht> ]e ··:. With rei'"ard to the neces­sity of the Treasurer getting this money, I l .Jld that it was ex<.r·Pdindy nee~ '5ary that the Treasurer should get it.

Mr. PAYNE: I was not arguing that it was na:t necoss,uy.

Mr. HARDACRE: Either the money was necc.sary, or it wac not. If it was Dut ner:es­sary to get it, they ought. to ha"Ve th·· actwn validated.

The TREA~ rRER: You know that we passed" a Bill the other dav, which would giye us the power now to do this thing.

Commonwealth Deposit Bill. [6 AUGUST.] Commonwealth JJepcsit Bill. 571

Mr. HARDACRE: If it was necessary to get the money, then the loan finances were not in such a good r~.:~ition as the Trea­surer makes out. The facG that h<> went and got it ~ho,v<d that it was nece ·z,ary to gel it, and he ought not to ask the House to validat,e it unless it wo,s necessary. If it \Yas necr:s,,ary, it l·a~d·"· t:1e 'l'reasurc_,r in this positior, that at the close of la.st s~s­sion the Go .-ernment did not take the Hou;e and the comcory into their confidence; they closed the s~;,sion without pointing out to members that it was absolutely necessary to get a Lo.m Bill through before meeting Parliament again.

The TR2ASl:RER: They alre:tdy had the power.

Thlr. HARDACRE: If they had the power, why did th0y come at the commencement of this eessic.n to ask for anod1er Loan Bill to be paP·o•c d through in post hast0?

The TREA~ -:~RER: To go on the loan market.

Mr. H ~RDACRE: I conttnd, if it was necess'1ry to et the money-which they say it v.as-t',at the:- ought to have done at the close nf 1" ;t SE••:ion wk.t they came and "·-1:c:l I\uliamcnt to permit them to do at the commencement of this session. The fact is that they did not disclooe to Parlia­ment and the country the si,Lte of the loan finances Yd1en we met. There is do doubt they wero really building on the proposal­at any rate, there was a rumour +hat Par­liament would meet in April to deal with the Liquor Bill, and they had then in their mind~. the int0ntion of Parliament to sanc­tion a loa::t. It is quite clear that, if they had nc· got that money from the Common­wealth \1overnment, they would not heLVe been able to safely carry on as far as public works 'vere concerned. They might have been a He to (' ~ny on by the Pkin of their teeth, but they could not have done it with a liberal margin of safety.

The TRE.,,URER: You are ah.ogether out. You are nev0r ,,atisfied unless you are cry­ing "stinkir,g fish!"

Mr. HARDACRE: I think that is an ab­solutely unfair remark for the hen. gentle­man to mah·. \Ve are here to criticise the bad administration of the Government; and we are not crying down the State when criticising the G.,vernment. There is no doubt tl.at the Tt._""surcr did not do v;hat he ought to have done. Insl'>ad of :Jsking for an uuthori. ing Bill, he should have asked for a valid 1ting n1easur·2.

Mr. LE:'-l:'\10::"1' (Herbert): I rise; for the purpose of 'A con dine' the amondm,mt moved by the hon. mc'•1ber for Lc ichhardt, who has no doubt ,,aggcsted the LOrrect word to use. If Par liamcnt he d been called tog,ther in April in pu\··.u.tnce of the promi~2. made by the Chief Sd·retary, fFc'e would have been an opportunitv not onlv to discu"s the Liquor Bill, but also for the Governmnt to ask auttoritv to acce:ot this loan from the Commonwealth' Govemn1,'Lt·. I sa': thP Go­vernn1ent \Yer,,, right in taking the money, but they are wrong in su '>nrit,ing this motion in it" presC>n: fon1. I think the amendra•cnt should be acceptei. by .both sides as a commDn-,'·~ll''~e amendn1e1:t which meets th,.., e~.·"J to a nic<'ty, and do.as a\vay with all mi'·mdcrstanding.

Mr. ADAMSO='i' (Rocl.·hampton) : In sup­porting this am,,ndment, I agree with the han. member for Leichhardt, that this ought

t.o be called a validating Bill. It seems to Inc that the Tre;:tf'ur0r is seekin1-:; to forestall s0mething taking· place in tlH' future. \Vhe_n the Aaditor-General's report comes down, If something of this kind .,, g·, not done, there would be somethi11g in the report that

ould not sbnd to the cr< dit of tl.c Govern­ment. In his last r "port, he complained about them being a lot of unaut~orised ex­penditure which haq been mountmg up for a numhe; of years. It :.ts m "' £300,000 last year.

Mr. FORSYTH: It happen;, ever} Jd.r.

:Mr. ADAMSO::"l': It is noi in a<JOrd;moo with the best traditions of Parliament •as far as m•,me,.- is conc.rne.l. A few years ago when I wa·:: vin th0 House before, ~v\·hcn thorg was a disso:ution, the party that had the reins of power spent £620,000 or £690,000 without the authority of Parliament. There was a gnd deal of talk ab::mt it: m:d dur­ing tho election campaign It vva..; s;nd . that the Governor, Lord ChelmsforJ, w,s likely to bo impe:rched, . and th~t Mr. Plulp and othe , had acted m " way the0 shou,d not have done. But this SeEIEe> to have becom<~ a sDrt of continuou3 thing; and it is t~e dut,,- of Po~rliamc ,lt to 1'1 ::Lt(;h how Huney IS

raised and how it is .-pent. The•other night the Secretary for Agricultum told us that we had p:eL.t:Y o: money, aLd th:'t. w~ T,Vere not in fin~mcial strait.-.- at the ]Jf•gmnmg of the vear. It 0een1s tD n1e a vcTy strange thing for them to take this parti<;u:.~lr "'"';ay of r:.-ising £1,000,000 when th:·Y sa1d th'!y did not need it-that they were not m financial straits.

The SPEAKER : Ordec· ! The han. mem­ber ma; -df':tl with that .aspect of the suh­ject when th2 main que>tion is befor~ the House. The question no~,'! before the ~louse is the subJtitution of the ''ord "vai1daten for the word '' authorise.''

Mr. ADAMSON: It iR a little difficult to kee" within the bounds of an •amendment of this' kind. However, I have e:Itf•ed my protc·~- Tho Tr·e,Jsurer knows .that !f he did not get tiL House to pa.-s th1s mu,10n, the Auditor~Gen<,ral would condemn what he has done without authority. It is just pos­sible that the Auditor-General ~1as ~~read_y pointed out that the Trc:asur~r ~ acc10n ~8 uncon,·.titutional. They know 1t 1s uncon~tl­tutional ; and it seems to me .a qn<','r thmg tho~t they should arrange for a 4 per oent. loan instead of a 3,1, per cent. loan, and take £1,000,000 of that £2,500,00il to pay off ·a 3:', per C£·':_.L lDan.

Mr. PAYNE: I am going to sup1;or~ the amf'ndrY~.ent ; and if thcr;;;; is any '~·'F tness ability in m •nbDr·' of thP Govf'rnmcnt, they will :\ocopt the amerdri:ent. I am not •,•peak­ina- in a Fniteful "ay when I sa:: that Bony m~n on fr.o Opposition side who alJo,,·s _this ki1.] o£ thi'1J to go on wit_Iiou~ pr9test 1s .a wooden man :'lnd hu:.; no h.1B In h1m. This should be 'called a Bill to cover up or v.-.li­date th€ action of the Governr., ent. \Vhat arB 1~v~ fact.., in conn·:'etion 1vif'h -the n1otion?

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. P A Y="JE: What are the facts in refer­enc·' to tho awcndment heing neces"1ry? The Government some monchR ago l1orrowed ,a sum of m011-E'':" frDm the Fed'::!.ral Tr·v:tsurer -unconstitutionalh-. I beli .. vc: and this amPndmont pnts the thing in ord<>r; that is, it validates .the uncvnstitutional action of the Government.

lf.fr. Payne.]

.572 Oommonv:ealth Deposit Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Commonwealth Deposit Bill.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN (Kennedy) : I intend -to support the amendment of the hon. mem­ber for J.;eichhardt. We have often heard from the opposite side that they are the great constitutional party; and they attack this side for not acting in a constitutional n.1anner; but I think this proves conclu­Sively that the Opposiiion are quite alive to the importance of observing the Constitu­tion. We know that the GDvernment l1ave =ntrol of the fin:tnces; .and we think they should exorcise that control in a constitu­tional mannn. If this kind of thing is :allowed to go 0:1 ye:>r after ;. ear, there will soon b<> no such thing as parliamentary con­-trol of the public purF.e. Members opposite s!10uld look at this thing in. the proper !Ight; and the GDvernment will be acting m ~Wcordance with the best traditions of th<e House by accepting the amendment.

Mr. FOLEY: (l>Iundingburra): I hope th-e Governm<mt will see thB wisdom of accepting the amendment, because when it is all boile-d ·down, this is r;othing but a validating measure. ThBre IS no doubt that the action <>f the Government was unconstifutionaJ. If they can borrow £1,000 000 without the authority of Parliament, 'they can borrow £10,000:000 or £201000,000, becau&e• it is only ·a que~twn of gettmg their action validated. An4 If they can always g"'t these things validated,. they need not ask for permission at any time. The Treasurer simply sits ba?k and laughs. The GDvernment se<om to thm,k they can do these things with im­pumty because they have Buch a majoritv not one of whom is prepared to stand ,;p a_nd say a word .against their action. The time may com<' when we will ·be on that side Qf the House.

Mr. MuRPHY: Then you will do what you like.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: We will do what is right and proper.

Mr. FOLEY: We might take a· precedent from the present f!o.vernmcnt and go in for a loan of ten millions, and then we will laugh at the Opposition when they protest

against it. But we are a partv [4.30 p.m.] who do things in a constitutional

manner, and for that reason I enter my protest against the action of thn 'Governmrc1t in this matter and hope they will accept the amendment. ·

Mr. vYELSBY: (Merthyr): I C'1l1Sider that th<;' '!'reasurer w.as perfectly justified in brmgmg the motion before the House this afternoon, but at the same time I quite agree with the amrmdment proposed by the han. member for Leichhardt

0PPO.SITION 1\'IE:'IIBER-i : Hear, hear!

Mr. WELSBY: I think thot the mistake must hav,, C"en made at the Printing Office 'and tlM• the word "auihorise" should b~ "validate." \Ve all know that the word " authorise " mccans something being done in the future. The Treasurer, however re­ceived the money from the Commonw~alth Prime 11inistBr, who, we all know, made a great amount of money out of the Federal land tax, and whom we also know has joined the ranks of boodlerism.

OPPOSITION :MEMBERS : What has that got to do with the motion?

Mr. WELSBY: I think the word " authorise " in this motion should be «validate." \Ve know that the money was Qbtained on the 5th of March last, so we

[Mr. O'Sullivan.

cannot authorise a thing when we have already got it. It would be no shame and no degradatim1 on the part of the Govern­ment to accept the amendment and put in the word " validate " instead of " authorise." I intend to vote for the amendment.

Question put.

:;\Ir. RYAN: I am surprised that the Treasurer did not rise. He had every opportunity to get up and accept the amend· ment, and I thought he would do so, especi­ally when the amendment is supported by the hon. member for Merthyr, a gentleman sitting on his own side of tho House. The Government committed an unlawful act in March of this year. The PrBmi"f, in making his explanation, did not give an explana· tion of the question I asked at all. I asked if the action of the Government in March

"last was an unlawful act and if so was this a Bill to validate that action of the Govern­ment. It is only right that this House should have all the information about the Bill, and the Treasurer should give it to us, especially as it is asked for by members on this side and supported by a membBr sitting on the other sidB. I congratulate the hon. member for Merthyr on having the courage of his convictions to rise in his place and support the amendment moved by the hon. member· for Leichhardt. I think that the Treasurer might at least give some explana­tion as to why he objects to changing the word " authorise" to " validate." If there is any particular reason for it I think that the House will be inclined to hear it, but so far as I can see, there is no particular reason why he should not accept the amend­ment.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The remarks of the hon. member for Barcoo sound much as if they are "mu~h ado about nofbing.''

GovERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! and laughta. ,

The SECRET.ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : As a matter of fact, the wording of the motion now before the House is the same as that which is, if not alway~, then very vBry frequently used in connection with mea;ures of this sort. Nothing has been done or said to show that this is anything more or less than a validating measure. The motion is preliminary to the introduction of a Bill to validate the action of the Go­vernment, and the objection from hon. mem­bers opposite is merely a verbal one.

Mr. HuNTER: Then why not accept the amendment?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Thqre is pnctically nothing in it. I can auite unaerstand the hon. member for Merthyr thinkin.c- there is ;orne distinction between the word "validate" and the word " authorise," but it is only a matter of form which word is used. It is to validate the ac: ion of the Government, and there can not be anY reasonable objection to the form of motion. proposed by the Treasurer. The objection raised to it seoms to me to be utterh· absurd. It is only a year or two ago that members on that side of the House used to say, "Wh:';.r, in heaven's name, don't the Government borrow money from the Federal authorities?" and the terms offered then were almost identical with those which were accepted by the Premier on this occa­sion.

Mr. HuNTER: That is beside the question.

Railways Bill. [6 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 573

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The only difference in their attitude is that whereas thPy ~used to say, " Why didn't you?" They now say, "Why did you?" (Government laughter.)

Mr. RYAN: No. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS :

The whole question raised is one of absurdity, and it is only wasting time; it is nothing but a play upon words.

GovEmDIEliT 1v1EMBERS: Hear, hear !

Quertion-That the word proposed to be omitted (lvfr. Hardacre's amendment) stand part of the motion-put; and the House divided:-

AYES, 35. Mr. Allan

Appel Barnes, G. P. Barllf;'ti, VV. H. Bebbingtcn Blair Booker Bouchard Bridges Cor.~er, B. H. Cor:ser, E. B. C. Denham Douglas Forsyth Grant G"'_nn Hodge Luke

Mr. Macartney Mackay Mackintosh l\iorg...tn P:G§;et Petrie Rankin Roberts Stevens Stodart 8'1/:ayne Toln1ie Trout Vowles White 1'1L. uholt Williams

Tellers: Mr. Morgan and Mr. Rankin. NOES, 26.

Mr. Adamson Mr. Kirwan Barber Land Bertram Larcombe Bowman Lennon Coyne l\lay Fihelly McCormack Foley Murphy Gilday O'Sullivan Gillies Payne Ha1nilton Ryan Hardacre Theodore Hunt~r Welsby

, Huxham , Winstanley Tellers: Mr. McCormack and Mr. Murphy.

Resolved in the affirmative. Original question put and passed.

RAILWAYS BILL. INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. \Y. T. Paget, Mackay), in moving-

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Vi'hole to consider of the desirable­nc}' of introducing a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws with respect to the con-::;truction, maintenance, managcrnont, ancl 1mrking of the railways of the State, and tho appointment, promotion, disci­pline, and regulation of the railway ser­vice, and for other purpoE<'S connected therewith "-

said: I do not know the reason why "Not formal" wa< called to this motion. I would lik0 to inform hon. members that it would be rather impoFciblo for me to give an ex­planation of the Bili at this stage, for the simp!; l'ccciD11 that the Bill consists of fifty­fivE' p~ges of printed matter, and contains­about 146 clauses. I think that the motion is fairlv explanatory, and I trust that han. member' will allow it to go through, so that "T can c,~t to buF,iness with it to-morrow.

]\Jr. KmwAN: Is it a consolidati·m? The E\ECilETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Yes.

Mr. BOWMAN (Fortitude T'alley): I de­sire to say a v~ ord or two in connection with the introduction of this motion on behalf of an employee that has recently been dis· charged from the Ipswich Railway work­shops. I believe a Mr. V{ elsby is charged with having taken part in the late el"ction in so far that he supported Mr. Heffernan, who was running as a Lctbotfr candidate. I am giYen to understand, both from Press report. Dnd o".herwi~.~., that thoro were other men. 'Yho v.-.~re supporting the G·::yarnmcnt candidate.

The SPEAKER : Order ! I am at a loss to understand ho1v the hon. member can connect tho matter he is reforrin.;- to with the moticL before thP House.

Mr. BOWl,lAN: What I want to know is. whethc:r Rule 18 has been suspendd. I re­menlber sonF3 t-\\"G or t1uee ye:..trs ag·o the late member for Ip'"•Yich, c\11'. Ryott Maughan, got a motion )<tssed in thiJ Cham­ber that Rule 18 would be wiped o,,t. I beiiei"G the late Mr. Thalion, the late Com­missioner for Railwayt~, said, as long .as a man did not stand on a platform in his. uniform--

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mem­ber is referring to a rr1atter cvnneded v;tith the regulations of the railway serviu. This motion sirnply covers leave to introduce a Bill to gov-ern the construction, rnaintenance, and working of the railwa0 s of the Ee"tc, and for the 1·egulation of the railway service. It me1·ely a~ks for leave to consider in Commit­tee whether it is wise to introduce such legis­lation. When the House is in Committee ques­tions such as the hon. member wishes to rai .,e can be d'iscuFsed, but at the present juncture he is not in order in doing so.

Mr. BOWMAN: I wished to ask the Min­ister for Railways whether it is his intention, when r''vising thP Railway Acts and Reguh· tions, to n1ako provision for such cases as have happened recently?

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The case is probably sub judice.

Mr. BOWMAN: I want to know whether he will make provision. that no man will be discharged because he has certain politi­cal opinions--

The SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. the leader of the Opposition must obey the order I have laid clown. This motion specifically asks for the leave of the House, at its next sitting, to enter into Committee to con­sider the advisableness of introducing a Bill for the purposes mentioned. He may discuss those questions then, but he is dis­tinctly out of order in discussing them at this stage.

Mr. BowMAN: We will wait.

Mr. WINSTANLEY (Queenton): I think it is a highly desirable thing that we should have a consolidating Bill to de:1l with rail­way matters, so that we may be able to refer to one Act without having to go to a number of Acts to find any information we may require. Whether this Bill will cover all that is required is another ques­tion, and there is one point I would like· to refer to. I would like to know if some­thing is to be done in connection with the Railway Appeal Board. Whether that is included in the scope of the Bill or not, I do not know. I am aware it is only a matter of detail, but I would like to have

Mr. Wir.stanley.]

574 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Mining for Coal, Eto., Bill.

the assurance of the Hon. the Minister that it is included. Apart from that, anything I may wish to say in this connection I will defer for the pre~ent.

Mr. ADAMSON: There arc one or two things I would like to take the opportunity of putting before the Hon. the Minister. I think this Bill is a ctep in the right direction. All consolidating Bills are wel­come. \Ve have found that in relation to the Land Act, and I hopu this Bill will be of a similar character, so far as making it easier for one to refer to for in for ~'1a­tion. I 'vant to ,J ·Jr this question novl, because I "'auld like to know whether we will have tho opporr cmity of discursing some of the objoction,,b]e provisions which are in the regulations at the present time. This Bill, I see, is to consolidate and a:mend the laws df aling with the appointment, promotion, discipline, and regulation of the railw ·'Y L8l·vice. I do not want to raise any matters that can be objected to, but I think it would be very de3irable for us to know now what this Bill is likely to contaiP.. I hope there will be provisions in the Bill which will wipe out ,.ome of the regulations governing the raihyay service, which, to my mind, are unfair and unjue.t to the people who are working in that department.

Mr. O'RULLIV AN: I rise to say that I welcome a Bill of this nature. I know ve!·y well that we ha Ye a vast State in Queens­land, and that with its big railway system there is need for provision in the Bill for the regulation of the senice. I know that in the North we haYe often be<·n at great di"ctdvantage owing to our railway:; having to be mana!;·ed from Brisbv,ne. Everything had to be referred to Brisbane.

The SECRETARY FOR R.UL\VAYS: Not now.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: The Minister gave the reasons for introducing the Bill in so few words that nom. o-f us know what the Bill will rertlly moan. Therefore, r may be permitted to say that when it does come, I hope there will be provision for practic­ally "hom'· rule" for the North, so far as (_lur :raihvays are concerned.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL'.\AYS: You have it now.

l\Ir. O'SULLIV A)!: I hope the measum "~ill inc1uUP provision for controllin!{ our own railways in the North.

The SEC!lEl'ARY FOR RAIL\'i'AYS: It is there at the prpc.ent time.

l\Ir. O'SULLIYAN: We have not enough of it.

Mr. THEODORE: \Ve would like an assurance that the House will be asked to limit the powers of the Commi,sioner in makin:; reguhtions restricting the rights of ordi1:ary citizens.

.'\.n HoNOURABLE MEMBER: Contrary to thu ::is! s of Parliam,nt.

Mr. THEODORE: We should haye an assurance as to whether this is in the Bill, or whether it will be necPs,ary to amend the Bill, so that the Commissioner shall not have that pm•-er. Neither the Commis­sioner nor any other public servant should have the right to absolutely abrogate the ordinary rights of citizens.

[Jf.r. Winstanley.

The SPEAKER : Order ! I hope the hon. rncmber will pardon my interrupting him, and that he will realise that this motiolll does not limit the question of leave. It merely asks permission for the introduction of certain legislation. \Yhen the House accepts the motion, it will subsequently go into a Committee of the \Vhole, and han. members will then be in a position to in­troduce principles which they wish to S<;le incorporated in the Bill. I. a;_n afrar? some hon. me-mbers do not rea!Fe the posr· tion. The 1notion is rnere1y that the }louse considers that legi~lation in a certain di· rfri·,ion is \VOrthv of it9 consideration, and members must ~-'der to the Committee of \h.· \Vhol.o such matters as h;;oYe just been brought forward.

Mr. THEODORE: I am glad you have ;--iyen c~e C'XDlanation, but perlEtps I have been misund~rstood. I only asked, at this early :-:.Cage, that \%·~~; n1ight have certain information, so that at the later stages of the Biil we would be in a position to know exactly how we stood.

Question put and passed.

MINING FOR COAL AND MINERAL OIL BILL.

RESL'HPTION OF COMMITTEE. (Jfr. J. Stcdnrt, Logan, in tic~ chair.)

Jfr. Hunter's au;endmcnt-" That it be an instruction to the

Committee that they have power to amend the Bill so as to proYide for the carrying on by the . Gm·ernmen~ . of Queensland of prospcctmg and mrmng for coal and mineral oil."

Mr. HUNTER said that sine" this motion had been first introduced he had not heard the Minister state his disapproval or even say that he was not willing the amend­ment should be accepbd. One of the strongest reasons for urging the acceptance of the amendment was the a~·mrance of the Minister that the Government themselves proposed prospecting for oil, but that be­fore doing so, their intention was to g-et ~ll expert information possible, not only m Queensland, but al•o in Great Britain, and possibly also in the United States. Pos­sibly the Government's intention was to get an expert to superintend the wodr. That being so considerable time would have to elapse b~fore anything could _be done,. ar:d apart from that, th8 prospectmg for. ·or! m Que<onsland would be much ·-ufer In the hands of the Govermm:nt thall in those of private persons. It was well known there was a large comp,:ny, known aJ the Stan­dard Oil Company, which dominated t~e oil busim·"· of tho United State<. and, 111

fact of the world. That company had con~entrated its business in the United States, but it was known that it pos"essed oilmin< in other parts of the world. In­deed he believed it was a fgct that where oil h:td been diqcovered in other countries, the Standard Oil Co~:1pany h• .. d pm·chased thB "show" and closed it down. He did not c:•re what private coElpany form-ed in this State, and whether it found oil or not, he did not believe that they would. under private enterprise conditions, ever have the oil industry in Queensland, because such would not suit the Standard Oil Company.

Mining for Goal m,d [6 AuGusT,] Mineral Oil B:/l. 575

It would not suit that company to con­tinue operations in Queensland, so after l)Urchasing sho\\'S they would close them down. Of course, various rc ::tsons would be given for such closing down-that the bu,i­ness waf' not profiublo, or that the oil was not suitable. Hon. I.LWn1b0rs could realise that it would suit the Standard Oil Com­pany to C'Jnduct the whole of its business in the United Sta.t~s rather than i1we th-eir operations dividc~d all over the globe. That bc·ing so, it did not matter how good each show was; unless it was a "gusher," or something e_<traordinarily good, which could not be covered up, there was no chance of ever establishing the industry in Queens­land. That w -~ '1 the clah:rer, if thr ">O privatn co;E1J;.-J,nies c.1.me in, thcLt · ;,¥-e would have 110 such thing as mineral oil deposits developed in the State. There had only to be two or three more failures in Queensland in con­nection •;ith the tinding of oil, rend it only \V~nt::'d a fe·,,, 1nore to take place, c.Hd 1 •Jbody would b-_1iece that oil existed. The Govern­ment would b-3 wise if they allowed no <Jompanj to tamper with oil, and should place no legislation on the statute-book until they had fairly tested the field for themselves. If tho Government found oil, they would have the protection of the Com­mon1\ealth Government, which would put a barrier around Australia ; and if they could find oil of commercial value, and at a reasonable price, thty would be pro­tected against out•ide competition, and would be able to Ltrry on the industry so long as they were not overdoing it. There wa• a splendid opening for tho Government of Queensland to secure the £10,000 which the Commonwet~lth Government proposed to offer as a reward for oil, and also prot!]c­tion against the dominating power of the Standard Oil Trust. He understood from a borer that a fair prospect of oil was dis­covered in New South Wales, and to-day the bore had been c~ealed up.

The bell indicated that the hon. member's time had expired.

Mr. HUNTER (continuing) : He did not want to delay the Hou"'' but he wanted to in1pre0c upon members the great importance of this question, and the nec•:ssity for not legislating in this direction. He hoped the Minister would consider this bdore he pro­~ceeded to place on the statute-book a power .such -as thi" Bill would give. He understood ,,hen oil -,,-as discovered in Russia a great number of wolb w<-re sealed down there befor<> they managed to get the oil going. He understood that a grEat deal of the oil there was under the control of the Standard Oil Companc·. He knBW that in va1ivus States of America_ oil was being ,ent from wells hold privately, but only on condition tha.t they sold their petroleum ac a certain price,, and their pipes were brought into th~ main pipes of the company, and it w."s measure·! and bought by the c0mpany. There w.·~ ~a dang~r in opening the door for oompaniF' snch as this to clme in. It might net be genoralh knocm, but there .. H.::.-ts a well-boring company in Queensland to-dav, ,and fom·-fifths of the capital in that comp'any was h~ld by an American share­holder who had large intere,ts in the Stand­ard Oil Company. He felt confident that the St.andard Oil Company knew more about what show there was for oil in Queens­land than the Queensland Government.

They had something like £3,000,00J of a re­serve fund .for the purposa of lmymg !AP ,yells in other <:vuntries, and killii.;._.,· the In­du.•try, so tint they uight obtain sole con­tr-ol. If the J\Iinic+,"· could shm{ there was the slightest reason for the inclusion of oil in the Bill, b, (:\lr. Hm:•er)_ 'Y"s pr. pared to a .sist him, but belrevmg ther\g w.ts oil here, he wanted to help the Minister to pro!Dct this indu~7try for Qu~ensbnd itself. He U" _;cd th•· G?­vernment not to deal hast1ly ;nth thrs mattt-w. l-Ie had gu:Jd reason to l::c1l8Ve that oil oxi&'.ed in his o·.\·n PlL8toratc, L-:1 tv-ell ·<iS in othm· parts of the State. Tl· gas ~hat

,ts received from the Eoma bo"" compnscd 87 per ~2nt. o£ pur· p • r01eU111, sh .'lYing t.aat ther-e-' \;;'as .a lar;e pool of pctr?l~;n11 ·O!nf'­\\here in the llr·i !,'hhvul·hv d oi ·,-·.1a~ area. A valu1.11le "sho1~~" li>' that 'honld be clhcc!t ·with very car,ofully, "Old he '1Sked the MiniF.t~r tJ giv:" the Hous,__· so111· r .1 ,,_ln for the inclusion of n1ineral oil in the p,:Jl.

Mr. BEBLINGTO"'l (Dra'Jtr ') c'ruld like to say a £\··~· ~-ords ~n th~ Bill; ~1_1ot ti-L1t hu knew muon a·cout tne 01! qw~ cun, but a friend of hi.-, who had bc,-n i1Lc c;h'd in the boring at Rom a, .tssurcd hilT< 1 'nt the difficu:ties in :...Dnnection vvi\h 'x,!·ing erA genuine diffi-culties. I-I iF frien,J l. 1d \V~tohed the borinO' · carefuilv, and whatever tho Go­,.,3rnn1''llt

0 did he felt t~~GY 1 ud s0n1r. tl1ing

big in- front of them ~ml .a grc.1t dBal of difficulty. His friend h&d seen 'he c~riHs go down, and there 1vas ;<)me inEE ·,~.;.so prE~­sure do,vll bo:ow that he coul·d n.Jt un-der­stand. This gentlecnan was in to·.m to-day, ancl would be quite ·willing to ;-;-i;·e any in­formation if he h,ccl time, bOit iL sa: l that if the Go\t~nnnont \vere :-;:oin5 to undcrtal;:e it on their o·.,-n account it wonld cost se>me­thing like £20,000 before they got through it.

Mr. MuRPHY: What ic £20,000, anyho.v?

Mr. BEBBI~GTON: He said he "nuld certainly let somconD ehe 'laYc the oppor­tunity of risking their o, n money first, and then let the Government control it a±tm·­wards.

An OPPOSITION :MEMBER: Can yen give the man's name?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Yes. It 1.-as Mr. George Flynn. He had had a bt of £x­perienec3, and had watched the boring for SOTI16' tin1e.

Mr. 0'6ULLIVAN: He eou!cl net un.;_,r­stand the Ministu' s intmjcction refusing to acoept the a1nendlnent-, _s,~c_•ing that i:he Minister the other claY ha i -distinctly rt'· fu&ed two Ieasf's for ii1ineral oil, sho\ving that they wme really sni?•-~d ·with the neces­sity of not allowing tho oil tr> gj ont of State contl'OI. 'Thev all knew tl,e poc'-er of th~ St::tndard Oil Compan), and th.r "{ ,~aw the way in which that comp.1ny l1,:,cl got its octopus f!'ri1} on the whoiv <.f t'<· wodd. They had their grip on th£ oil sp,ings in An1erica, and it ,b3hov,--:J th€n1 to ke.,; .. ' a company JU<'h as tha& out of Queen',lnld. Sc_n.._e 'V·ere ah\.ljD ea.s3r for pri\T~· .. _, 011 .... , J>

prise to come along and spend t1Ieir money . Like the hon. member for Dra;,!Jn, they were alway;; willing to allo-7 l11c\'ate ·cnt<e'·­prrse to ti<> up the n.'1tUrtd l'B' ources o~ t!·e State, and fasiBn ics grin on -,- .· fu tu,'e pro;;~Jerity of the ;".tat-". 'l'h y had the his­tory of olcler countrih to guid~ tJ., lm >and they shonld rek1in for thf~ '11 c ,h-e, tl " oil rP~ources of this State. There had been an

Mr. O'Sutliuan.]

576 lviining for Goal and [ASSEMBLY.] Mineral Oil Bill.

attempt in New South Wales to foster the oil industry there by working the shale, but for sev<Jral reasons it had not be<Jn success­fuL It had been said that there had not been sufficient protedion giv<Jn. The Stand­ard Oil Company were always ready to buy up any private opposition in .any part of the world. It would be bett<Jr to excise the words '• mineral oil" from the Bill, .as desired by the hon. member for Mar-anoa, so that in future they would not have the terrible experience which older countries had had. He appealed to the Minister to aoc3iJt the an1endn1ent.

Mr. KIRWAN (BTisbane) : There could be no question about the importance of the amendment, though members diffN·ed as to the wisdom of .accepting it. Evidently the Government were not inclined to accept it. He had listened attentively to the remarks of the Premier the other evening, and he thought the House was prepared to give him crc·dit in the diredion of doing some­thing to establish whether Oi' not there was mineral oil to be found in the Maranoa dis­trict and other part·c of Queensland. But the experienct> of the House impressed upon them sternly the fact that except they had the promise in black and white-or in other words in an Act of Parliament-it was per­fectly valueless. 'When the Rockhzcmpton programme was m•mtioned during the de­bate on tho Address in Replv the Premier waved his hand and said r:c' was not re­sponsible. He did not know how long the Premier WllS going to occupy his pr-esent position, but a fresh Premier who succeeded him _would probably rise in his place, if questwncd why a lease was given in c<m­nection with the area mentioned by the hon. memb,•r for l\IJ.aranoa, 1md say, "I did not give any pledge or promise, and I am not bound by what the late Premier said." Therefore, no matter how much they might be inclined to accept the a.ssurance of the pres,,nt Premier that it was his intention to secure the be, t aJ vice, and even get .an expert oilborer from the United States to s~arch for the oil, the promise would be prac-

. trcally valueless as far as the House was con­cerned. They recognised that this wa~; the d_ay of trusts, and members of the Opposi­tron w:'re .P.erfectly justifred in suggesting the desrrabrhty of legrslatmg with a view to get the control of such an industry in Queen> land.

OPPOSITION l\llE~IBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. KIR\VAN: There was an American organisation here in the shape of the Amerrc;cn :i\lecct Trust, and they were given to understand that at an earl:y date they would be paying a high price for ment. No action had been taken to prevent such ru trmL The necessary powers were asked for by the Commonwe,.tlth Government but the people in their wisdom, or otherwis~, thought fit to refuse them. This Parliament evidently had no power to deal with the American Meat Trust; but there was power to prevent the Standard Oil Company or any similar com­bin':tion from '•<'Curing whatever there might be m t,he bowels of the earth in the Roma di~crict in. the way of, a natural supply of mmeral o.tl; and he tnought the Secretary for :1lineF, in view of the aFsurance of the Premie:', might make prcvison in the Bill that this particular area should not be leased.

i\Ir. FonsYTH : What do you want to do with it?

[Jfr. O'Sullivan.

Mr. KIRWAN: He wanted the Govern­ment to attempt to find oil there; he did not want any private company to find the oil, and the Standard Oil Company to buy them out. If the bon. gentleman did no,t want cheap oil he (::Yir. Kirwan) did, and there were thousands of people in Queen·,land who wanted oil as che:lp as they could get it.

;:,rr. FORSYTH said that nobody could tell what iL would cosG the Gov•,.•rnment to go prospecting for oil -as members opposite suggested. It might coct £30,000, and the Governmc·nt would be very unwise to do anything of the sort He might inform members opposite that the Standard Oil Com­pany h<,d opposition in Queensland. Two enormously wealthy companies were competing succf-ssfully against tho Standard Oil Com­pany-the Shell Comp:.ny and another com­pany whose name he did not remember just now-he thought it was the Light of the .Age.

l\1r. HUNTER: They are all out to exploit the people.

Mr. THEODORE: They ure all combines.

Mr. FORSYTH: They were nothing of the sort. He was reading an article the other day, and was surprised t.o find that the Standard Oil Comp;:my had not got the large number of oil "ells people generally sup­posed. 'I'he question w'as whet:her anyone should be allowed to lN>e our mineral oil lands. Why not? If the Federal Govern­ment were determined to prevent people from bringing in articles from other countries they could do so by putting on a protective duty.

Mr. THEODORE: The Standard Oil Com­pany ate already here.

J\Ir. FORSYTH: But they had to import. all their stuff; and if the oil industry here be0ame " big one the Federal Government could put on a pr~tective duty and keep out any oil from other countries. He thought. the Government lv re ·had enough to do in other ways without botherjng their heads about prospecting for oil, and he woul_d vote against the Government domg anythm_g of the sort. Ther.e wcro plenty of pnvate people who would only be too glad to prospect for oil under a liccnFt', and the Government could get 5 per cent. gro,;,; royalty, which was a fair consideration.

Mr. HU!O'ER: Will not the royalty be passed on to the consumer?

~Ir. l<'ORSY'I'H thought it would be Vf!rY much better for the Government, to recerve 5 per cent. gros., royalty than ~o run tJ:e risk of losing mom'y by prospectmg- fo:: mi. Mining at any time was a ;;an;blm&" busr~ess, but if it was deeired to natwnahse mmes, it would be less ri;ky for the Government to mine for gold, coal, or tin, than to prospect for oil.

Mr. THEODORE: It would have been a good· thing if our mines had been worked by the GoYernment.

:Mr. FORRY'I'H: It might have been in some cases, but thm·e were hundreds of mines. that never p<tid a single shilling in dividends, and people had spent thousands, and even millions, in connection with mining without. getting a penny back.

Mr. THEODORE: 'What about Mount Morgan?

Mr. FORSYTH: There was only one· Mount Morgan. Prospecting fo;r oil, as he said before, was too speculative a businesS>

111~ ining for Coal and (6 AUGUST.] JJ:Dneral Oil Bill. 577

for the Government, Dnd if this question we.:-tt. to a division he would vote against the amendment.

:1Ir. THEODORE: The opmwn of the hon. member who had just spoken did not coincide with that of the Premier or the Minister for C\lines. Without the amend­ment, it would be quite a simple matter for the whole of the oil arct to get into the control of private moJ>opolists to the detriment of the communitv. As to the inducement to private P' rsons io pro prd,, no ordinary prosp·.···:tor could go out pro,pecting for oil.

J\Ir. FoRSYTH: A com1'any could be formed to find the money.

J\Ir. THEODORE: Ko companies were enterprising enough to find the money, unless there a5 some eviden~n of the oil. With respect to nationali.<ag the mining industry, he maintained it would be n very good thing for the State if it was entirely under State control.

I\Ir. FORSYTH: How many goldmines are paying?

l'.Ir. THEODORE: It was not a aue,tion of how many mineA are now paying.~ No one would "ant to nationalise a mine which had petered out; no- one would advoc:ate such "' 6illy, pue ·ilo thin,;. {Government bughter.) Th'l mininE; industry of Qnhen,,land had re­turned mor<e wc.tlth than it had cost to pro· duce, in · pite of the fact that millions of moneY had been ev.tractcd from shareholder i to de~~eiop ''wild cat.s." It \vas not lobe sup­pcsed, ho11·ever, that anyone wo:uld advocate the nationalisation of "wild cat" propositions. With rega.rd to the nationalisation of oil, there ''as an open field, and no ve~.ted interests in connecti0n with the industry. The Secretary for ~\IIiw·s th" other night endeavoured to make a point in favour of his contention that the State should as far as po0sible retain con­trol of th<> industry by saying that he had already refu,·cd to grant leases to certain pri­vate individuals in respect to mineral oil areas at Roma; but in that case he was making a virtue of necessity, becaun he had not the power to _:_,-ive It .::S..;';S.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Y p·c,; but we c . . nnot limit them as we propose under this In~:::a;.:-ure.

Mr. THEODORE: There was no Act on the st'atute-book to allo,,· private persons to take up leases for ~ro .. i)octing or working mineral ml areas on Crown bnds.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: We have dong it alre.•Jdy under the ~lining Act, and the leases have been forfeited,

Mr. THEODORE: They were no.t to sup­pose that mineral oil was dealt with under the Mining Act, and there "as no- Act in force whi h gave the Crown the right to

dP<tl with mineral oil h·ases. If [5.30 p.m.] the Government had the power

to give private persons the ri"ht to mine for mineral oil o.n Cro '.Vn lands, ,,. here v.-as the necer,aity for introducing· this Bill? The Bill, so far ag it reLated to mine­ral oil, should not be accepted by the Com­m;ttee. The7 should eliminate evorv refer­ence to mineral oil, so, that no vcrong E''l·

couragem0nt could be given to prospectors to prospect for mineral oil under such cir­cumstanc''.s as wonld lead the <1overnment to deprive them o£ what discoveries they

'1912-2 0

mad<O, in order j,> control thi\t iiOd,: 1Ty when oil was found. He hoprd tho GoBrnment would a~cept the amendment.

HaN. J. W. BL.\IR (h , .. J): The amendment of the hon. memher for l\laranO"· .sought to elimi1: ,tGG the \vor j~ "1.nin'-.!·al oi~ n fro .. n ihe Bill. Ii t~1at were c ... aiecl, the effect would h9 to .restrict the Bill to a ::\lining for Coal Bill alone. If he under­stood t'1e hon. member, the reason for the araendmPnt '"'1as that, if po;:ver to t.rant a lea<:<,_.. \\ad given, thc:1, o.n rnineral oil bein6 d}~.covt red. it v·oul·l be I ·Y ')lLle ftn' a corn­pany to buy up t:mt right and t ventual!y s'-·c·ur._• a Jnonopr:~y.

l\Ir. HuNTER: Or even to prevent it from being made puUic.

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: At tho p·e80nt time there "-'S no provision on the ste,tutes of ( )Ieensland by which opera tim.·~ could be ks,ally taken in connection with mineral o·il. '.rhere was nothing to enable the Crown to legally grant a lic•mse or lease for mineral oil.

Mr. O'Sl:LLIVAN: The Minister for Mines said there was.

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: He took it that the !.\IinisL~r made refen,nco to the operations which "· ~.-e carried on at Roma. He (1\Ir. Blair) b·tpp·~ned to be JUinister for Mines at the ti1no tho:-':3 o.pGrations \Vere carried on, and it was purely an arran:,~·en1e11t made with tlu local authc.rity and people of RomJ. w:wreby a certain ;'rant was made to them, which was to be repaid t<J the Go­vPrnment on the clis.ovcry of o.il. The grant totalhd £2,500 altogether.

Mr. COYNE: W auld those people 1_ave had contra.: of it if they had dic·covert·:! oil?

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: Yes, subject to the inherent rights oi the Crown. The hon. member for lYhrano;c knew that quite well.

JYlr. HUNTER: \Ve knew vHJ were not quite secure.

lioN. J. \Y. BLAIR. That grant of £2,500 was made, and what was the result? There wa., no discovery of oil.

Mr. HUN1'ER: You cannot say that posi­tiYely.

EoN. J. W. BLAIR: He could say there had been no- disco-.very up till the present time. He did not wish to say that there was no oil the12. He hop; d that oil would be eli .,-ov,rod ~here, for tho sake of Que·ens­land. He hoped that there V'as a vast store of o.il there, and that it wculd bo discovered and utilised in the bccst int,oresh of Queens­land. He had inspectors o'3nt up to R<Jma, and although that money W.ts spent, there was no return to the depcn·tment at all. The actio11 taken by the Government then -,·-as not done with the autho,rity of any statute, and had no legislative sancfion at all. It was purely a crant to a number of people who we:e given a lease of 40 acre3.

Mr. CoYNE: Then the··e parties were acting ilhgally.

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: No. Althou~·h there was no sbtute dealing with th" matter, it was a contract entered into between the Cro·.yn and these people. That was the

nr·xns th.~,t bound them together, and that v. as quite legal, and the Crown granted the money on the distind understanding that if oil was discovered the money wuuld be returned to the Go.vernment.

Han. J. W. Blaf:r.]

57S Mining for Coal and lASSEMBLY.] Jv1 ineral Oil Bill.

Mr. MuRPHY: You showed you were anxious to assist them?

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: Yes. Unfortunately it was a failure so far as tangible rBsult~ were concerned. At that time the Govern­ment would have l.>een exceedingly glad to have seen the d1scovery made. If the Go.­vernmunt did not take some· action to have lr·gislati.-e power to deal 10 ith mineral oil they would still be in that unsettled and unsatisfactory po.>ition that the hon. mem­ber fo.r ~-.Jara.noa referred to.

Mr. THEODORE : Introduce another Bill.

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: The only possible way it could be dealt with, except in this way, was hy some kind of nationalising scheme, and hon. members, . when they were in a serious mood, knew perfectly well that it was impossible to. deal with it in that particular way.

Mr. HAMIW'ON: Why is that?

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: Because it would require a tremendous amount of money to deal with it, and there would be requests to include other matters, and so it would go on ad infinitum. He failed to see why there could be any objection to it being included in the present Bill. A license would be granted first, and then afterwards a. lease would only be gr_anted under certain condi­tions. It rested with the Government to grant a lease for one year, for six months or for any P<;riod up till twenty years. Whe~ a man a.pphed for a lease he would have to say what he discovered and what he proposed to do, and men would be sent up from the department to investigate it, and if oil was discovered, then the applicant might not get a lease for more than a year, as the Crown might take it over.

Mr. HuNTER: Would that be a fair thing to the man?

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: He would get com­pensation for it.

Mr. THEODORE: Why not include that in this Bill?

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: The Bill was on those linBs. A man would be compensated if he made a valuable di\covery. Although he would get a license, there was nothing to make the Government grant a lease if he made a disf',>VBry of oil. He asked hon. mBmbers to look at the sections following, and they "·ould sPe that it was sufficiently >o2.feguard,ed.

Mr. HuNTER' It is throwing the dcor wide open.

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: There was no ques­tion of throwing the door wide open at all. If there was eny attempt at setting up a monopoly, the Government could step in and refuse to grant a lease.

Mr. HU)1'TER: Have the Government ever refus~,d leases?

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: Yes; they had re­fused to grant coal !Bases time and again, and he had no doubt they would refuse them in future. The department would have the absolute right to grant or refrain from granting a lease, and so long as theY had that right they were absolutely protected, and so was the Stat<J. Personally, he would be glad to sec the discovery of oil made, and this Bill would enable people to deal with it legally.

Mr. HuNTER: Is the GovBrnment going to deal. with it?

[Han. J. W. Blair.

HoN. J. W. BLAIR: He gathered the intention of the Government bv their overt acts, and it was contained in th~ :!?ill, which would amply safeguard the State.

Mr. GILLIES (Eacham): The hon. mem-. her for Maranoa deserved the thanks of the people of Queensland for bringing this matter under the notice of tho House. (Hear, hear !) He was sorry that the h.on. mem­ber's other amBndment had been ruled out of order, but he would support this one. They were told that if the Government nationalised the industry it would m0a_n n1ore taxation, but, as a 1nattcr of fact, 1t would mean less taxation, as some of their taxes would be remitted. In Germany they nationali.'ed no less th"n thirty-three coal mines, and it returned £2,000,000 per annum to the State. As a matter of fact, no less than £44,000,000 was returned to the State in Germany as a rBsult of nationalised con­cerns.

Mr. CoYNE: What about nationalising the tobacco industry in France?

Mr. GILLIES: Yes. The Queensland State GovBrnment ran their own trains, but seemed afraid to mine their own coal. The coal and other mineral deposits belonged not to the people of to-day but to the people of all time. It was oonsidered by an hon. gentleman opposite that they should _go_ in for export of coal, but it would be cr1mmal to do it. He considered it would be a crime to part with their coal, and he . hoped the Go.-ernment would conserve the1r coal deposits. Coal was one of the grBatest necessities of any country, and they should keep it in the country, as it belonged to the people of all time. Coal could not be re­plenished, as there was no known process wherBby it could be restored. \Vhen coal was taken out there was nothing left but the hole in the ground, and for that ~ea.son they should not export it. It was Cl'lmmal to talk about handing ovm the coal mBasures to the tender mercies of privato enterpnse. Private enterprise did not take any risks. He considered the GovBrnment would be well justified in prospecting for oil and for coal. The money would be well spent, and )1e would yery much like to see, instead of a B1ll of the nature beforB them being pa.soed, the pass!ng of a Bill to provide rewards for the findmg of coal and oil. They knew what had been the experience in other State" with rega.~d to coal vends and trusts. They knew that m New South Wales the railway authorities were taking steps to provi4e their ?Wn coal to keep thB national m'1chmery gomg, and he did not see why the Government of OuBensland could not make some attempt to 1~\ine its own coal for its own purposes. 'l'hev were also doing it in Victoria, and wh"" could it not be done in Queensla~d? He he.d .-ery much pleasure in supportmg the amendment of the hon. member for J\laranoa, and hoped that it would be agreed to.

Mr.' HARDACRE was in fo.vocu of the an1Pndrr1ent, and one rPg,soi1 for ~i~ supp~~~t was that he considered that the B11l m ItS present furm would b'l i!'-cffectiYic. _All the provisions that were gomg to be msurted In the Bill would have no effect at the pre­sent time unleH in the Rom a district, "• here a certain ammmt of cnternrise had been en­tered into. But dealing- with the general proeprcts of oil in Quom1sl,,,.nd a~. th,• present time, no private c0n1pany ''as hkely to ex­pend money. with such unlikely prospects of SUCCeSF, on the mere promi 'e of a lease of 60 acres of land, if successful. The pros-

Mining for Coal and (6 AUGUST.] ~lVI ineral 0 il Bill. 579

pect of success was far too remote, for at present the only place where the business was likely to be succr,ssful was Roma.

Mr. MURPHY : The expert who comes out might be able to show a cheaper method of prospecting.

Mr. HUNTER: That might be so, but it would be better for tho Government to omit those provisions now in order that they might immediately enter upon the search for mineral oil, and particularly in the Roma district. If the} were successful in finding oil, then it would be time for the Govern­ment to introduce a Bill covering the whole subject and dealing appropriateh- with it. At pre~ent they did not know what were the prospects of getting oil.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : That is an ex­traordinary proposal.

Mr. HARDACRE: The promise of 60 acres of land was not going to lead any company to search for oil, although he admitted it might be a big enough area for oil opera­tions.

11r. MURPHY: Twenty-five acres induced a big company to sink to a greater depth in Charters Towers.

Mr. fU.RDACRE: That was when gold was known to exi.,t there. Sixty acres might be too much fm· an oil company, but at the present time the prospGct of striking payable oil \\as so remote that the promise of 60 acres of land would not induce a c-1mpany to .expend much money in searching for oil. It would therefore be better for th" Govern­ment to enter upon the \•enrch for oil itself, .and if oil was found, and they knew what the prospect~ were of commercial success, they could introduc.1 legislation providing 11reas suflicic nt to induce enterprise to risk its money and energy.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : That is a most .extraordinary proposition. You are advo­cating the nationalisat ;on of the oil business, and that wh8n we h""ve found oil we should pass a mr:tsure to allow nf its being mined by private enterprise.

Mr. HARDACRE: He had not said any­thing about natiom.lisation at all, aithough some: of his nlleagneo might haYc. He had not committed himself one waY or the other in that resprrt. At the prese'nt time, how­ever, he thought th,· re was a better prospect Df oil being found in Queensland by the Government than by private entcrpris,··. It would be better for the Goyernment to launch out now, and see what were the moct likely places for oil in the Roma district. For the present they might as well talk about offering rewe.,-cls fer the discovery of platinum or uranium.

Mr. ::\ll:URPHY: You could find them in North Queensland.

Mr. HARDACRE: He would much prefer to s.ee the Government itself launch out in prospecting for oil in the first place.

Mr. HAMILTON: The Hon. the Secretary for Mines had interjeeted that the hon. mem­ber for Leichhardt had made an extraordi­nary proposition. No doubt it was extraordi­nary to thoeA who bdieved in private enter­prise and in the handing over of the wellth <>f the country to private companies. But it was not at all extraordinary. Tho Common­wealth Government was going to exploit the oilfield•; of New Guinea, and it was adver­tising now for experts to take charge of ·operations. It was procuring its own plant,

and it was going to exploit the New Guinea oilfields in the interests of the people of the whole world. They all knew the effects of the oil monopoh in Americ<t and Russia. Some men, such' as Rockefeller, had been able to amass hundreds of millions of money through that monopoly. If it were po_ssibl'?, and it was probable, that there wer'-' mlfields in Queensland, it would be a spler"iid thing if the Government spent money in the de­velopment of those fields and in finding out if certain regions ·were oil-bearing or not. If they w~re oil-bearing, it would be .a gre~t thing for Queensland if they r ~mam< ,d m the hands of tho Btate im.tead of being handed over to individue1ls to exploit the whole community for their own individual profits. He asked the Minister for Mines to r''=;ad up Mr. Jack's report on the ClJncurry district and with reference to coal in the "\Vinton district. There were mineral seams there, at 100 feet beneath the surface, and a man who had put down an artesian bore reckoned that at 570 feet he had gone through a seam of coal 10 fed thick. What a great thing it would be to th<e State if the Government te,ted th~>J,t region, and was able to show that coal was there in payable quantitiP>. The Government was not show­ing enough enterprise, and if it had the money to give half of what was necessary to a private company, it should t;nd the whole of the casli, and have the resultant benefit for itself. He was quite in accord with the motion moved by the hon. the member for Maranoa. The policy of his side was the nationalisation of utilitius and nececsities, and coal and oil were growing more necessary every da3, especially oil. In many parts of the pastoral districts of Queensland, and on the Barclay Tableland, subartesian water could be got within a few hundred feet of the surface, but it would have to be p:ienped by oil-engine•, as there was no fuel obtainable, but the carriage of oil was so expensive that its usc was practically prohibitiye therP, and it therefore hnhoved the Governm,~nt to do what it could to develop the f',tate's own natural resources in the matt·:r of oil and coal.

Mr. MURPHY (Burke) thought it must be admitted that the Government was show­ing some enterprise in the matter of pro­specting for oil. It ha,d been stated by the Premier and the Secretary for Mines that arrangT-ments were being 1nade to secure the services of an expert, and a consider­able amount of money was to be spent in proEpecting for oil. But they had to con­sider the fact that Queemland was a big country, and that it would not do to con­fine operations simply to the Maranoa. They should also remember that it was not the GoYernment that had discovered such min­i:·:g fields as the Palm,:r, Croydon, Charters 'Toc\·ors, Cl' Gympie. If that h d boen left to the Go. ernm<-nt, the outcome probably \\ould haYe been the sending out of little prosp<-<:ting partie· to the D.xelini,· Do~xns. ,,·ich the rest of Queensland neglected alto­to- ether. The fi,:lds he had menti >Tel had ]-,,u, cliscoyered by men who were game to go out into the wilds and search for them, and suff<,r :dl kind:, of ha.rd:;hir '. The hi::tory of the di,~ovcry of oil in Amerir '· tam:ht H~En1 th':'.t laT ..-e an1ounts of money l'·t.:J. been ;::pent t~1ere In prospectint;,' .. F'ork. Th·· com­punv a.t R mna bad dune excci1ent ,,. 'Jrk in searching for oil, and the Governm~nt had assisted it to the extent of £2,500. He hoped that when the Government got an

Mr . .Ll:furphy.]

580 1li ining for Coal and [ASSEMBLY.] M inrral Oil Bill.

expert from the old country, they would go to the expense of giving what were believed to be oil-bearing regions a thorough trial. They knew that as far as mining tenures were concerned, it was quite different in Queens­land to what the tenure was in America

and in some other countries. [7 p.m.] The whole system of tenures in

Queensland was the leasehold, and mi·1ing compani0s, individuals, or syndi­cates had to comply "ith certain labour con­ditions which w<re laid down bv the Crown. Consequently, the ctat-ement that a con111any, after oil \\...lS (lj •overPd, n1i~ht decide to clo~c that oil ,,-ell down in order to enable the Standard Oil Company of America· to exploit the company, would not stand. :"-!a thing like that could be done. As far as those big trusts and combines •re concerned, y,·hile they knew America ·,;as tlw pbce in v:hi,_h thE'y thrived, there Yas no po,sihility of trusts and combines thriving in Australia like th0y had in America.

Mr. HAMILTON: Give them an oppor­tunity and they will.

Mr. MURPHY: First of all, the various States controlled the railways. In America, the trusts controlled the railroads. In Aus­tralia, there was a better democratic senti­ment than there was in America. Did 'anybody for a moment suppoce that the people of Australia would submit to the " graft" that had been submitted to by the Americr.n people? Again, there was no class of politicians in the world more honest than the Australian politicians. That had been absolutely proved, and it had also b_e~n sh<_nvn. that '!lost of the leading poli­tiCians m .\.ustraha, when they lost their political jobs, were vecy hard up. Take most of the late Premiers in Australia in the '?ld days, when there was a poscibility of makmg money. Parkes, Sir John Robertson Berry, and other leading sb'esmcn, when the": went out of Parliament, were absolutely poo;. In Aucrica, the trusts not only controlled the r,•ilroads, but it was known that they controlled both the State politicians the Su­preme. Court judges, the IIous<· of Repre­sentatives, and the Senate. There was no possibility in Australia, with the demo­cratic ~entiment which existed among the Austr&llan. P"ople, of trusts obtaining a great footmg here. There were laws in Australia under which trusts could be dealt with. They knew that the Commonwealth Government prosecuted the coal vend in New South WaJE•g, That was a combina­tion of shipowners, coalminers and union­i5ts for the purpose of exploiting the coal market.

Mr. H UfiLTON: Look at the trouble they h 1d to deal 11 i!h it !

Mr. MURPHY: As far as the Crown ;'-as c0nc0rned, it could come in at any time It chose. Durin;; the big coal strike in New South Wales Mr. Wa.Cle, thE' then Premier, to'!k poco;ession of a large quantity of. coal w hwh had been purchas3d from rmnes by a combination between J\1r. Bowlin:· a:'d . cert"'in mineowners in the N ewcastl~ distriCt. No body doubted the sincerity of the hon. men,ber for J\1,-,,ranoa in tbs mat­t<?r. That hon. mem1·er ".-as anxious to do the .b'·'t h_· could for the S; cte in that partwular matter, but so far as he (l\Ir. Mu~phy) wa~ concerned, he did not look at 1t eye to eye with the ho.n. member.

[Jfr.Murphy.

He did not see the dangers which the han. member saw. He was perfectly satisfied, and the hon. member for Maranoa appeared to be satisfied ,also, that the Government did not propose to grant leases to company pro­motors in the l\laranoa district, which was. rcc9gnised as an oil district. On mining ficEls, when the Government had joined with a company for the purpose oi exploring deBp ground, the Mines Department had absolutely refused to give any leases while the work was in progre,s, and h,, was sure, so f,~vr as tho ~\laranor... di: ~-riot .'iTas co1H: !rnccl, the Mines Department was not likely to grant any lease while the explor,,tio,n wa& proceeding. They had already shown their bona fides in the matter by refusing to grant two applications for leases that had already been lod;ud. The only objection he had to the amendment was that it was likely to retard exploratory work for oil in other parts of Queensland.

Mr. HAMILTON: Not necessarily.

Mr. MURPHY: It would. The han. member for l\laranoa had pointed out, and rightly so, that it might take several years b provo whether oil in payable quantities could be ob1 ·,,ined in the i\laranoa district. 'This m-'ant that prospeciing for oil in all the other parb o£ Queensland would be held o' ilr until the J\iaru,noa district ':as proved. No iaen;ber of the House would believe 1o,r "' moment that if the Government went to considerab~o E' (:f,CD::le in carrying on opera­tions in tho i\tlar>anoa district, that it w~~c; likely to ins'itute a search for c-:J in any other part of Queensland. That '"as the point v,hich should carry great weight. Was it fair tu object to the Mines Department having the power to grant a prosprcting lease to any individual who might want to go c ,,t and search for oil in other parts of Pucemland? He (l\Ir. Murphy) did not think it ";ould be a fair thing that the whole <1uestion ;hould be left in abeyance until the Maranoa diEtrict had bPon prospected.

1\Ir. MoRGAN: In order to benefit the member for Mllranoa.

Mr. MURPHY: !t was not in order to benefit the member for J\laranoa at all. He had already stated the member for J\,laMnoa was absolutely sincere in the matter, and a big oil disc: .. very in the J\Iaranoa district would no.t benefit the meuber for i\Iaranoa any more than it would benefit any other member o£ the House ~nd all sections of Queensland. That wa"' only a fair way to look at it. The hon. member for ]\Iaranoa cl< +~rved credit for the attention and care­ful study he had given to this matter, and hf!-d 1 place•~ his views before the H~use very mce,y. \/hat they had to cons1der was whether it was desirable that the whole work of prospe<'ting in other parts of Queens­land should cease until the ::lfaranoa district had been proved. Personally, hn did not think 'bat that would be a wis·1 thing to do. Suppose an application was wade in some other district for a prospecting area, and the prospectors discovereu oil ; they h .. :d then to apply for a loase, and under this Bill t,hey could get a leasfl of 60 acres. Was it likely, after the pdicy which had been laid down bv the Premier and the Secretary for Mines in connection with the oil question, that the Mines Denartment \Vould grant further pro.spectinq;- ttrr, ·d in that 1 nrticular district? The discovery of oil in any other di ,t,-ict than the J\Iaranoa would simply mean that the discoverer would be-

Mining for Coal and [6 AUGUST.] M ineml Oil Bill. 581

-e~1titied to a lease of 60 acres; the Crown would not give ano.ther lease there. As the hon. member for Ipswich pointed out, the Crown need not "ive a lease to anybody. No warden could grant a lease; all he could do "a··· to, recommend a kase b" granted, and the question had to be submitted tc the lllinir•: er for l,I:n<es. The Mines Depart­ment controlled the qucJticn of leaCJes.

Tiw bell indicated th~t the hon. member's time had expired

Mr. RYAN desired to say a few words in support of the am·3ndment. He was quite at a loc< to understand some of the argu­ments which had been brought before the Committer-tha' the Government were pre­pared to r,;Jend a certain amount of n.Oll(JY in pmspc'Cting for oillields, and so 0!'· he failed to see what that had to do w1th th<· provisions of the Bill ; there was no neces­sitv to have a Bill pas•.;yJ to enable the Go­vei·nment tc spend money in prospecting. But this Bill, to his uind, providod the machinery to en.>L:e the Government to hand ov "' to private compadies the right to mine and bore for oil. As a matter of policy t\e party on this side Vl'as opposed tc any such thing; they believed that public utilities of that kind should be kept for the State only. It was all wry well for hon. m,,mbers op,Jo-,ih to say that it would pre­vent th.~ onportunity of searching for oil in other p.art~ of the St, .• te, or that the com­panies which would get thL>e leases would not oo aeoociatod with the Standard Oil Trust, and so on; but if the right was given to a small compan0·, m· even to a large com­pany other than the Sbndard Oil Trust, what wu_s to prevent them coming in and buying out the small company ? That was hnw trusis and CDrn}cincs had b"3cn fonne,1. Anyone listening to thr· sp"lcch of tho hon. llJ::nnb r for -\Iul'remLa ~" ould imagine that there wuc no su<eh things as tru>ts .and <>ombim···. That hon. memoor had .actually pointe-d out that the Standard Oil Trust had two very ''"rious opponent•, in the way of competition in Queensland. If that were so, there ':cs no .uch thing .as an oil trust. \Vas it not common knowledge that Rockefeller, and other millionaires in America, l1a<l Jwe,n built up by moneys and profits r•ooivEd from the Standard Oil Trust and other trusts th c t flourished there? This "as an industry y hi,-h, he tru:•ted, would become a greD.t industry in Quoen·land, and there were no V·c:ted intcr,,ts in connection with it. Th•\"re ""' '10 company mining for oil in Qu<.mslnnd, them wer•· no !Bases; thcre­tfore, this I-Iourn was not confronted with the great difficult: that it 1\·as sometimes con­fronted with in legislation-that was, the <diffieult:r of fighting vest•cd interests. They :had to fight vest~d interc'•ts in the Liquor Bill, with r~gard to our coal measure", and with re«.ud to other things.

The Sn.RETARY FOR MINES: You have to fight for VPstcd intewsts. (Lau·ghter.)

Mr. RYAN: He really believed he ha<l woke t 11e hon. gentlem ·n up from the slumber he ''as apparontly falling into. He v:oukl be very pleased tc reply to any relevant interjection which the hon. mem­ber might UPd. (Government laughter.) Here they h:1d a great indus~try, with no Tested interests to fight, and Parliament had an opportunity of saying that this great in­dustry should remain in the hands of the State. If they once provided the machinery

which they were now providing,. so surely would this be hand0d over tc prn-"te com­panies. It "a1 all very well . for ~linisJ:ers to say, "\Ve have no intentwn ot g1vmg leases" ; he, for one, was not prepared to give the machinery for giving l<eas~s. ':Vhy was this m:.chin<,ry asked for? lt m1ght not be to-day or to-morrow, but so surely as this Bill went throu<-:1, so surdy would l<?as8" be granted in a· few months' time.

The bell indicated that the hon. n<umber's time had expired.

M:r. RYAN (continuing): So sun'.y would leases be granted in a few momhs, or per­haps in ,a year or 'O. Not only dHl he ob­ject to thDir giving over the.,e pos'!'bly great resources in oil to private compames, but he looked up:m the que,tion in this hgh\: At pr6sent there was no doubt therr v. as a gre:'t oil trurt; it might be under one name m this country, m:d differe•1t in another, hut they were .all a, •·)Ck,.ted with ewh "the~·,. or they ha-d the 1v :;.ns of b·commg aswmated or 'combined. H8 did not think any com­pany"'""·' po .. orful eaough to fight that ovm­bine, but he t;1ought the GoFlrnrnent of Queensland as; .and, therefor•·, he tO.ought if they did not include the power to grant leases to private companies in this Bill, they were makin"' a weapon that they would ·OO ~ble to defe

0

at the Rr?.nd<·rd Oil Tru•,t and other trusts xith. They ha:l the .,x,:.mple of ·~he Common A-eahh Governn1ent in Ne1v Guint;a, whcr•• th.ey had steadfastly refused to grant lea • .os to mine for oil, because they want"d to k . .gp it for th, pcoplo ?£ the Common>' eaHh, and they wanted a.so tc keep a weapon with which to fight trusts. Let the Que~nsland Government for once step asidB from the adYocacy of private in­terests, of trusts and combines, and say, "liTe shall ken,p this industry for th" State, and keep a ·weapon to fight monopoh-." If they did that, tho people of Queensland might reg·ard tho arguments that they would be putting he fore the pc0ple in a~ few months' tim<c• on the r0ferendmn. When thev had alreadv power to fight combinBS, hmv their hands· would bt· strer>:sthen<>d if they could go forth and say wi~h r•·gard to oil, "The Queemland Governme'1t has, at all events, done it·• duty: it Ius kept these great resource> for the State-, and has kept a weapon for fighting combines." He did not think the Governm~nt '"oul·d have so persistently hung on to the clause, 'htloa~se he th'>urht, hom the spe·.-ch<'s of ~he Ch1ef S.ecre\arv and the 1\Iinister for :r,IInrs:, that they rea:Il:v did not care w r:v 111U<'h v hether this machinery a' in the Bill or not. In fact, when th-:c Bill was introducod it hMI nevo· owurred to thBm that such machinery was in it, but on examining the Bill t l,ere ""'~,as nothing in it ·excr~;·t that ni:~ohinery.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES ; Did I not ex­plain on the s9cond reading that it was a machinery Bill?

Mr. RYAN: It might be h the ho:.:.. gentlenan's own satisfaction, but not t., h1s (Mr. Ryan'F): The hon. gentleman stated that he refused leases in th0 Mar.anoa dis­trict.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : That is so.

Mr. RYAN: If he was able to grant leases what did he want this Bill for? Why did h~ ask the House to put its imprimatur on this Bill ? Because he had not the power to grant a lease to mine for oil. He trusted

Jfr. Ryan.]

582 Mining for Coal and [ASSEMBLY.] Mineral Oil Bill

that the mover of the amendment would call for a division, so that it would be seen on which side were arranged the r~al friends of the people.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : That settles it.

M,·. PETRIE (Toombul) thought the amendment moved by the han. gentleman for Maranoa was one of those am<;lndme!lts an hon. member moved when speaking to the gallery. The han. member was a ;man of means himself, but wished to nationalis.e all things. He might point out to the bon. member that Roma was not the only place where attempts had been made to discover oil. At a place opposite Bribie, and at a place" in the Rosewood district, atteJllpts had been made to find oil. He believed the. Government should do everything in therr power to discover oil, or anything else that might be for the benefit of the commur;ity; but he believed that private enterpnse would do far more than national­isatio': in this matter. Another thing, on all pnvab lan,J cmy oil that might be dis­covered was the property of the owner of the land.

OPPOSITION ME>fBERS: No, no [

Mr. PETRIE: That was so. He rose be­cause he did not w:mt to l"lt the hon. member for M>:rano:t have all his own way. He did not thmk the hon. member was sincere in the matter; and as for nationalising the in­dustry, I10 thought the hon. member would like to be the largc-clt shareholdm, if he had a show. He hoped the Committee would not be misled by the hon. n;.ember's arguments, but would knock out the amendment.

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted (-llr. Hunter's amendment) stand part of the clause-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 34. Mr. AIIan Mr. Macartney

Appel Barnes, G. P. Barnes, W. H. Bebbington Bouchard Bridges Caine Corser, B. H. Corser, E. B. C. Denham Dougla.s ForPyth Grant Gunn Hodge

:iifack,1-~Y Mackintosh :WI organ Paget Petrie Rankin Roberts Somerset Stevens Swayne Tolmie Trout Vowles \,Ye!rby Wienholt

Luke Telle>·s: Mr. B. H.

, Williams Corser and Mr. Wienholt.

NOES, 24. Mr. Adamson

Barber Bertram Bowm.an Coyne Fiheiiy Foley Gilday Giiiic" Hamilton Hardacre

, Hunter Telle>·s: Mr. McCormack

PAIR.

Mr.

and

Huxham Kirwan Land Larcom be Lennon May McCormack O'Suiiivan Payne Ryan Theodore Winstanley l\Ir. Winstanley.

Ay.,-Mr. Blair. No-Mr. Murphy.

Resolved in the affirmative.

·clause 3 put and passed. Clau+e 4-" Definitions "-put and passed.

[,lfr. Ryan.

On clau:._,e 5-" Licen.,:;es to search"-

Mr. THEODORE "'"ked the Minister the reason for proposing a reduetion in the rent to be charged for dw right to ···oarch for coal or 1nineral oil? 'Ihe an1ount at pre­sent charged was 6d. per acre, and it was now propose::l to redl~, ·e it to ld. IFr acre.

He kne'•;· that tho aroc. was {7.30 p.m.] being incri•,rscd from 640 acrE·''

to 2,560 acres, but he would like to know the principle upon which the reduction was based. He took it th,,t it was considered that it was not right to impo·,c burdens upon men who prospected for minerals other than coal. l.J nder the Min­ing on Private Land Act a deposit of £1 was asked for from the prospector; but that was the only charge that '' ~s made, and it ''" a.s intendeJ to con1pen;:-;ate tl.!._· O""'d.ncr of tho land for any damage that n:ight be done by the prospedor. In tb·" (". e of pros· pecting for cual and minei·a) oil the work would be alrnost invariably unde)·ta\><t by large companies, and not by individuals, and h!' would like to know wh~ a merely nominal charge '!,J,:as to be n1ade.

The !~>ECHETARY FOR MINES: The reason for the reduction in the rental for a livense to prospc:,ct was that the area un-1'·'!7 the Bill was 2,560 acres instead of 6.+0 acres, as it ·was und,Jr the pre~cnt lavl'. Thi;.-; was the n1axin1U12 .... area, but under the present law it ·was pos.;iblo for a p01. .;on to take up several licens0.;;, a .. nd thet .. c· vvere no condi~ tions. Un.Jer the Bill there wore to be con· ditio:n,·,J one of ~.vhich 1vas that operations must commew;e within ninety days, and, if at any time information was given to the dDpartment that a licensee was not making reasonable endeavours to search for coal or min"r:J oil, as the case might be, the warden might call upon him to show cause why his licens,, should not be cancelled. Under the present law it was possible for a licensee practically to tie up land for twelve months, no conditions being imposDd, but in the Bill they were safeguarding the rights and inter­p.,ts of the Crown and of the people by re· quir!ng certain conditions to be observed; otherwise, cancellation would follow.

Mr. HUNTER: What he said in connec­tion with clause 3 applied with particular force to this claus,,-that it was not poi>iblc to work the two industries in conjunction. Tlw. provisions applicable to one industry did not apply to the other, as the two in­dusb'ie·, were different in magnitude and in the manner in which they were prospected for and worked. The area to be allowed for prospecting purposec was to be the same in both cases, although it was quite possible there might bo two or thre·e pocket.c; or p<Jols. of petroleum imide that ar. a.

Tht> SECRETARY FOR MIKES: Yes; but they can only get a maximum of 60 acres for aJ lease.

Mr. HUNTI:R: Qui",e so, but by reducing the area the~· would get more c.ompetition. If the State v. , going to part with the oil, it should part 1vit,h it to as m1nv neonle­as pos.<ible. If the State, by keopiU:g the business in its own hands, would make all the pe'lplo of the St:,te l'l"09pectors, then he want'}d as many prospectors as possiblP, so that the c0mpetition would h;, DeS kc~n as they could nnko it. For that reasoa he aid not want anv company to hold a monopoly of 2,560 acres in the vicinity of wh£re oil

lVlining for Coal and [6 AUGUST.] Mineral Oil Bill. 583

was believed to exist. There might be several people prOSIJuctmg at the one time. As he had I:nentioned o~ the second reading, in Amenca the derncks were almost as thiek as peas in a bottle in some parts where oil was kno"\vn to exist, evmr~anies vvorking do_u~le shifts to get oil first. He hoped the }/1rnister ·would agre&; to a considerable re­duction in the area. I-Ie thought 160 acre, ":ould be more ;han abundance, because the ml was gPnd·al,y got in rock or in santl, and the beds covered a large area. For· a lease he would make the maximum area 20 acres, as in America. It was not like coal w~ere thee• could drive and take away th~ mmeral. One well would serve to drain all the pools in the neighbourhood, so that there was no need for such a large area to be held by one c·Jmpany. It was berctuse of all those difficultic,; thnt he urged the Govern­ment not to procc;ed with the Bill until they had more knowledge. Speaking with wme knowledge of the subject, he thought they should go slow, and should not grant such a Iarg,;c> area for. prospeding. In fact, the area he had n1onhoned \V J,S about three times as m~ch "·as really nec:•c:sary. He did not 1sh .t~ move any am~,ndrnent just now. If the Mtms'er would act on the suggestion he had made, he would confine himself to making those remarks. Then he was not sure wh0ther the definition of "mineral oil" covered all that was mbtnt by petroleum: It had not yet been di,_covered whether petroleum was a vcget:tble oil or whether it consisted of decayed animal matter :mel later on they might find thw1selved in a diffi­culty. PPrhap:, it could be made clear that the term covoi~ed all oil>, found under the surface of the earth.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES ; You will not find vegetable oil under the earth.

Mr. HUNTER: The chemists throughout the world had bee<' unable to dtscovcr what w.as the composition of petroleum, and he dtd not know whether the term "mineral oil " would cover it or not. If the Minister w.a~ satisfied J;hat it was covered by the defi­mtwn, he. (Mr. Hunter) was not going- to quarrel With the hon. f: ·ntleman on the point. He moved that the words "two thou­sand five hundred and sixty acres" be de­leted, with. the view of inserting "one hun­dred and stxty acres " in their stead.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I could not a.££;8pt that.

Mr. HUNTER: He understood that the d~partmcnt were not d"s.irous of interfering wtth the area to be acqmred for prospectino­for coal, so he would leave it as it stool so far as coal was conc-erned and make it apply only to oil. He moved the omission of the word " or " on line 55 with the view of inserting thG words "and 160 acres for," so that it would read-

" not being of a greater area than 2,560 acres for the purpose of searching thereon for coal and 160 acres for mineral oil, as the case rna:;· be.''

As tEe Government were desirous of allow­ing private persons to come in, then the more prospecting they had the better it would be. If thev had country where oil was known to exist, then more than one company would want to come in and pros­pect for it. They heard from the Minister that he had two applications from com­panies wishing to ,prospect for oil at Roma, and they wouid be boring within a few

chains of each other. The closer the pros· pectors got to each other the better. When a locality was known to be likely to be good for gas or oil, then the prospectors wanted to get as near to it as possible. It was the same as taking water from a 1,000-gallon tank. If a man wanted to get the water from that tanlr, he "auld not go half a mile away. ·when boring for water also, if the owner of one run found artesian water near his boundary, the owner of the adjoin­ing holding would not bore in the centre of his pf'ddock, but would go as near to his boundary as possible so as to tap the same flow.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES could not aceept the amendment for the reasons which he had made clear-that the area was only for a prospecting area. The han. gentleman said that the subterranean reservoir might only be a small one, but if they wanted the public to discoYer it, they should give a reasonable area for prosp.,ctmg purposes, and that was the one provided in the Bill. An expensive plant would be neoe"ary for prospecting purposes, and a prospector would want a good area of ground to prospect. If a person obtainGd a license he must begin his S('::trch vvithin ninety days, otherwisP, if the warden thought he was not ~ooing on with his search, he might be called upon to show cause why his license should not be cancelli-d. Again, they had the provision th:1.t, should the s•,archer discover oil, he could not take advantage of the balanc'! of the term of his licens0, but was required immi'>diately to take out a lease and pay th0 amount of royalty which had been pro­vided in the Bill. He wished to further point out that South Australia permitted a maximum prospec~inl?' area c;f ;5,000 a'!res, and in \Vest Australia, where stmtlar lcgisl~­tion existed, the prospecting area for 01l was 3 000 acres. In both instan~cs that was a larger are.:t than the area proposed in this Bill. Wh2· should a person wh'? had the enterprise to prospect not .b.·:J m such a position as to reap the logthmate reward for such enterpri·'·''? Why should others, sitting idly by, be able to take advantage <?f that man's enterprise, as thev would be If the prospector was limited to a. very sma~l area for the purpose of prospectmg for this hidden weHlth?

Mr. HUNTER: How long would it take to prospect 2,500 acres?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The department wished to give . a man the op­portunity, over a reasonable ar<'a, for carry­ing on his operations. Han. men:bers shoul_d dissociate the idea from their mmds thn.t, rf oil were discovered, the discoverer had the right over 2,500 acres. The area he would ;, c t 'vould d0pend entirely upon ~ircum­stances, and he might only get 5 or 10 acres. Tho n1nxi:aum ·y<as 60 acres. tJnt~.P., those circumstances, he was not dispos~d to accept the amendment of the hon. memb-er for Maranoa, as he thought the provisions of the Bill in that particular reepect were ren.sonable, and such as to induce persons to go forth and expend their money for the purpose of discovering, if possiJJle, this hid­dc···1 wmlth.

Mr. THEODORE said that the Secretary for Mines had adduced arguments against the amendment that might be applied against the restriction of areas for other minerals than mineral oil, and he (Mr. Theodore) admitted that there was validity

lt!r. Theodore]

584 .~.ifining for Goat c.nd [ASSEMBLY.] Mineral Oil Bill.

in such arguments when applied to certain other minerals. But he would like to point out that wherever an indication of oU was shown, it was confined to a very limited area. The provisions in the Bill as it stood enabled one person to get the absolute right to prosp~ ~t an arc,l '2 mil09 square, and exclnde everyone else from it, bec:1use other prospectors conld be pro,,'Jcuted for tres­passing. The hon. gentleman had pointed out that the prospecting would probably be done by boring ; aud, if that were so, the legitimate pros;Joctor would not want any­thing like an art·ct 2 miles ,.quare, con­sidering the time it would take to test such an area by boring. In fact, such an area was simply absurd. Wherever surface indications were given, persons desirous of prospecting for oil could do it by being given a yery much smaller area. The 160 acres sug!;est cd by the hon. member for 1faranoa was very generous. He thon~;ht the Ron. the Pcecretary for Mines was tak­ing a rathor jaundiced view of the case. The hon. merr,ber for Maranoa wished to keep the indu<try out of 'the hands of pri­vate monopolists, and that could best be done by restricting the operations of such monopolisi.'• to small areas. The Ron. the Minister might very reasonably accept the amendment, in order to satisfy the fears which existed in the minds of hon. members regarding the things that might accrue from the granting of large areas. There was no­thing absurd about the suggestion, and it was r.ot intended to apply to th" search for minerals other than oil, where the granting of a large area might be justified.

Question-That the words proposed to bP omitkd (Jlr. Hunt"'r'a amend"nod) stand part of the clause-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES) 34. :ur. Allan Mr. Luke

Appel Macartney Barn"..:;, G. P. Mackay B.~.rne ,., \V. H. Mackintosh Bebbington Paget Booker Petrie Bouchard Rankin Bridg'-<' Robert·. naine Som1·rset Corser, B. H. Stevens Corser, E. B. C. Tolmie Denham Trout Dour;Ias Vowles Forsyth Welsby Grant White Gann Wienholt Hodge \ViiJiaillfl

Tellers: Mr. Douglas and Mr. Williams.

NoEs, 24. Mr. ~,~d .. tms;n Mr. Huxham

Bar!)er Kirv-,,J.n B~...rtram Land Bowman Larcom be Coyne Lennon Fihc!Iy 1\.ifav Fo1PV McCormack Gilday O'Sullivan Gillies Pn.yne Hmnilton Ryan H'lrdacre Theodore Hunter Winstanley

Tellers: Mr. Payne and Mr. Theodore. PAIR.

Aye-Mr. Blair. No-Mr. Murphy. Resolved il} the affirmative. Clause 5 put rand passed. Clause 6-" Cancellation of license"-put

and passed.

[2lf r. 'l'heodore.

On clause 7-" Leases"---:\Ir. HUNTER asked for some explana­

tion of the meaning of the paragraph reading-

" A JeaFe may be granted, notwith­standing that the a1Jplicant has not com­plied in every respect ,,·,th thi~ Act."

'J'hat, to l1im, was not V_§ry expli~it. Cer­tainly, it was a p<>wer th,.t should not be given to the department. Unless there was some good reason for the pa:·w raph, he fdt disposed to move the deletion of those vvord!':'.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES ~aid the c;ame expresoion appeared in similar .legiSla­tion in tho other States. There norg·ht be

some slight informality which [8 p.m.] did not affect the bona fides. of

the application, and ihe v.:ordmg of the clause would enable the lease to be granted. Ron. members wou!d obsc!ve that in clause 4 there were c."rtam reqm~e­ments, and this clause left it within the drs­cretion of the administrative head of the departm<>nt to t>'ant the lease, oven tho~gh there had been a slight failure m carrymg out the requirements of the Act.

Mr. HUNTER ,.,as not satisfied with mak­ing certain provisions on. the one hand, and on the other hand saymg there were . no pro.visions at all. They set out by makmg ccrb. ;n provi.--ions, which had to be com­p:ied v.ith; .-·nd, dter they btd r.rgucd over them and w.",.'ed tho time of the House, a?:ld r:n···.>0·l f',o,c:n, th0y y.,ere asked to pass a el tu?a saying· thnsc provisions ~-ere not to .•.pply, and it "· all in the hamlg ?f tho MiJCi.-iccr nr department. It wa- _acsu~d. It was like a lot of children at !'lay, .m­stead of trying to lr·:;islate in sm;wt.hing !Ike a definite manner. Let the Tumrster say what he wanted donP, and let the Com­mittee pass Ie:5islation in some definite form. He therefore moved the deletion_ of the wo~dQ, "A ]~a"'e nJay be g rante:1

L, not~,vi~h­standin;; that the applicant. Ins n~~ c<Omp)Iecl in every r<>i'pect wrth thrs Act, on lrnes 52 and 53, page 3.

Question put.

Mr. THEODOR:B: said he saw the Sec­retary for Mines ,-,-as just ab0·1~ to get up. Perhaps the bon. gentlema.n mncht now be prepared to accept the amendment.

Th- SECRETMlY FOR ::.JINES: He had already indi·cated that the object of f,~w clause ,..,,., that, sho.uld. there be a sh;;ht in­formality--

Mr. THEODORE: It does not say slight informality.

The RECRET:l.RY FOR MINES: Hon. lll"lnb;.;rJ n1uf.,~ be nv,~,-~r' that in i!eali_ g vd· h thosQ matteu, the cbject of the c1 par: ment was not to deceive the public. 'l'he .. clause was simply to put the departm;Ylt 1~ ~he position, if there h;'d been a S11ght In~or­mality in th·' w.cv in which thn posb had b en 'plae'd, th"t "th>tt vo-ould not invalidate tho ;, pp!ic~tion for the lease. In the first insttlnce, a licenso \vas gr,:t:.nted to p~ospect: v ncl then, after discovery, a lea_:;e m1ght l <' granted up to a ePrtain area. lf thne had be--·n any ,,light informality in the formal part of the application. that clause would enable the administrative head to m·erlook ihem. That was the reaso.n, and a similar daust' appeared in all later legislation of the

Mining jo1· Goal and (6 AUGUST.] Min< ral Oil Bill 585

'()ther Shth. It was a valuable provision in the Bill, and he could not see his way to acec .. b the amendment.

Mr. WE.JBTANLEY had listened very care­fully to !he explanation of the Secretary for Mines, and if only that was intended which the hon. ;:_cntleman said was intended by those bvo lines, the clau~e n1ic;ht h8 ve been "orded quit0 differently, and 14ade more distinct and clear. While there might be no doubt in the minds of hon. members as to what tho prm"nt 1linist0r and the pre'ent officials would do, exp-erience had tauc'l1c thcu th,t where there were loopholes like that, the l\Linister did a gre'"t dr ·ll more than was intended. As an absolute fact, tln :\Iiniste1· could r o to any length that be chose in th·• interpretation of the clause and she!t.•r himself behind those two lines. Althou1·h ·v. hat he did might be entir<·ly con­tr.ory to 1: e •,pirit o.f the .'l.ct, yet he would be ab' to sh·lter himself behind those two line~. In tin1ec;; go~10 by, that kind of thing had b, ·en clone in the interests of somf· par­ticular i~Jdividua]s in connection \vith son1e particular lease. He supposed there was .sDmethin.=> in the clause which gave 1JJe then Minister a pov •"lr like thi,., and he pushed it io a further limit than ·w'·'' inbnded when ~4c· clav:.A ·"·as p:'S"·,·d. Ii th_-·:'B was nv more int< :,d ·1 HJ>.n th·• Minister c<tated-that it was to overcome any slight informalit:;· in the rrpplic --_{"ion, +he p~acing of tho pegs in the right phce, or the size of the pep-then that -:hould be rtated. As the clause stood, with th£P-·J t>·o: line:-, a· grE·nt deal rr1ore than that < mlr) b: c'·Jnc, <tnd mi,;·ht in future be done. 'Ih8 words should be omit!- _-J alto­gether, or the clause chould state what w:,s intendec: more clearly.

711r. RY.\N: The exnlanation given by the :Minis'.,r was not s:lfficient to convince him that tLese two lines should be allowed to r<Jma;n in th<J clause. They went far beyond what was nec•cssary for the purpose he desired to att::in. Subclause (2) dealt with the form of application, and the time at which th'l first year's re•1' should be paid; but then th•.>· had a broader provision alto­gether <•Jming into th;:;t subclause-

" A lease may be granted, noh·ith­~J· !H~~n~r thnt thn ppl:eant h, _ _, not, con1-plied in every r<Jspect with this Act."

The SEC::STARY FOR lliiiO<ES: The one is relevant :· J the other.

Mr. RY \.N: It should be from its posi­tion, but ii that was what it meant, then it should say-

" A l r a <a ma.y b.' gran1.:,d, notwith­st ,.nding th:. t the npplic-i.nt h :s not com· pli·.;-1 i;,1 ''' ery rerpcct with this sub­section.

But it st'id "with this ~\ct," "hich was an entirely different thing. Almost any condition at all could be waived by the Minister under th·,.sc rircumQtanc£•;. He had no doubt that th Minister did not contemplate any­thing of th' nature that miF:ht happen, but h:. ,,,.auld find that when theoe powerful ·companies came along to get leases they would ronst.antly be calling his attention to th"~B two lines, and wanting him to define What la'.itude he placed upon the;[U.

The SECRETARY ·FOR MINES: The llon. member must be aware that the conditions

onlv will ensue ufter the lease has been m'de; so it must he apparent that it only r 'lates to formalities.

Mr. RYAN: He did not quit<J understand the hon. gentleman.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES.: The c;oncli.ions of the lease -.:·ill only be Imr·nseu on the lessee cfter the lease has been grant-ed, not before.

Mr. RYAN: Th ,.~.-l words were not applic­ablB to a thing alter it was grant- d; they refBrred to an cpplic~ti;:m before . It 'i~s granted-bcfora the i\l.!mster exerCised ms adn1inistrative power to grant th:: lease.

The SLCRETARY FOR ~.liNES: Tho lease may be appiled for :;t once. There _may be .oome slight inform. litie .. , in ,?cmnecwn Y 1th the application, but the coL:utlGns 1mposcJ on the k"-~·S,'r' only en ,J.a aftFT th,' lc_'J ~ h::-s been granted.

Mr. RYAN: If it v .cs only a ma~ter. of some informality, hey. ould havo no obJ,cetwn to the wordin,;-, but he could see thac they were going to hand OYDr somethmg ~Ider altogether. On hi:, side, !h'-'3' had brAn nght­i''" against, first of all, givmt; aw.cy any right to privLtL:~ companies; then_, ~v~Pn ~he_y could not prevent t1~-at, th~:r irr.:_·} LO hmrt the arnount of hu~d OY'.rned by pnvato conl­pn.nies, and no'>, the-:_- wan~cd to kno·v'l on what conditions the•- 'vcrc c·omg to be handed onr to private c-.)mp,>nies. If they J(";Ssed those two lin2s in the clause, wJ:;t ~ond1t1?ns, stipulPtion, P.ro:yision, or lnn.It?-tlon., 1111ght not be ovc.rndcwn by the 11lmster ' cr:hey might a, well not pass the B1ll. Th·x might a?l '\veil s:!s th:tt th"> handed, ovFr to the ~\.lines Denartment the so],, rignt to do what th~y liked with c II their oilfields and coal­fields. Oonseqw·ntly, he v:.1s gomg. to sup .. port the ami·ndni<Jnt.. HP thought the • Sec .. n·tary for Mm''' might be able b c-yo.lve something which would get over the diffi­culty.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN would like to. get an assuvnce from the 11inir'<Jr that the mterests of the country :• oul~ . be sd:cz:uarded h,Y havint; a more cxphmt defimtwn m this clause. He ;, ·S in accord w1th _the. hon. m<Jmbc·r for '3 ;_rcoo, who had mchcated lhe gr~.:.t loopholB which would be lef~ open. He tr1st, d the J: \'i-Lif~1'\r \vould sGe h1s way ; .:J aJ!.er th0 ,, or din: c£ i ha sub-clawe. ~h?se of t h••,m ,.,. ho had h.' d e"\·pGncn"? m mrnu;g fie1ds knc\V th0 diser~panci(- J whJCh cr.ept In 0 ,;iw· to technic ;L] pointe, and h~ chd nodt wantthoRe diflicu]:·ies to crop up wi!h rP<;ar b coa.lmining. There would be . great intere&~s at sLim when th~y t,ot thf'rr coal me!lsu:._·es opened up. The 1ndu""iry was only in its infancy, and H1Pt'.!o would h• n1any othm· industries depending upon cu~l. The r}Iiui-~tPr should ._-.1t,_:r the :·:_nls~ so as to safe~uard i'-le i<>tun '· d-,-stnc <-' th· State.

Th.: SECRETARY l1"'0R :l\~INES: He would noint out again that the clause re­ferre·l {o a condition prec •. dcnt to the grant .. in" of a leace; it rAr rred to nothmc· whwh might follow after a lv-tse had be<:n r-ranted.

Mr. RYAN: That io th'· opnosit.c of what; you said to me.

The SECRETARY FOR Mil\TS: What he had said wo.' thai this refr_rred to mere formalities Yvhich might hav0 bc>m neglected prior to tho grantin@' of a lea&e. Hon. !n.em­bers would see in clclU'" 8 what conditions

Han. J. G. Apptl.l

586 Mining for Coc.l and [ASSEMBLY.] Mineral Oil Bill.

W<.!re precedent to the granting of a lease. It was provided in the clause before the Committc2 that a lease might be granted, notwithst:mding that the applicant had not compliPd in every reo,pect with the Act. The conditions se:t forth in clause 8 were the conditions to be c0mplied with-mere formali· ties.

Mr RYAN: Is the payment of the first year's rent a mere formality?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The payment of rent only came in after the lease 'vas granted.

Mr. RYAN : Suppose the rent was not paid, would you grant the lease?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The lease would not he granted unless the appli­cation was accompanied b;.· the survey fee and the fi1"t :; ear's rent; but euppose that happ~nc cl to havE been forgotten-that in­formality-and the rent was paid afterwards when the lease was granted, that might be a condition which might be overlooked. There were certain conditions laid down by the Bill which preceded the grantiiJ.g of a leaFB. There might even be the informality suggested by the hon. member for Barcoo­that the fir> t year's rent and the survey fee might not accompany the application. This gave power to the administrative head o£ the de.putmrnt to over look that particular informality. The'e conditions precedent to the granting of a lease did not affect any condition of the lease which had to be ob­served by the person obtaining a lease. One of the conditions was t:1at the rent must be paid; and if the rent was not paid the lease was liable to forfeiture.

Mr. LENNON said the Minister for Mines, by way of interjedion to the honourable and learned m<.!mber for Barcoo, said this power would only be exerci,,ed after the lease was granted.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : I never said such a thing. I said it was a condition precedent.

Mr. LENNOK : The hon. gentleman said that afterwards. '\Yhat were they to under· stand? As far as his reading of the para­graph in question was concerned, it meant that the :Minister would have power to grant a lease eV('n though the conditions were not co:,1plied with in every respect. It simply gave him the power to grant leases to p>·Jple who, perhaps, were not en­titled to get them, if they happened to be friends of the Government; and he would have power to refuse lc,tSG< to persons who wer:: not friends of the Govcm;_:nent if th:·y had not complied with the let in every refpect. This clause had not appeared in any of our QueemlB,nd Statutes hitherto, though it had appeared in the legislation of other States. He did noi think it was wise, however, to copy any loose kind of legislation merel-v berau·,,~ it exi-;ted elsE­where. Queenefand had prided itself on having its legislation carefully prepared; and the Opposition was determined, if pos­sible, to continue in that direction. He hoped the Minister for Mines, after the ap­peals that had been made, would moderate his views and accept the suggeqtion to limit this particular power to the provisions of clause 8.

[H on. J. G. ApzJel.

Mr. GILLIES: Assuming that the Minis­ter -\vas sincere in saying that this applied oLly to "slig·ht informalities," he ··uggested that the paragraph should :ead th':'s: "A lease may be granted, notw1thstanchng any slight informality, provided that the Act has been substantially complied with."

Mr. THEODORE thought the suggestion made by the hon. member for Eacham was a very good one. In the clause ~ontaining provision as to applications for laTnFes or leases, which thf' Minister quoted, there was a provision that applications sh~uld take priority according to time of lodgmg, but under this power given in clause 7 the Minister could entirely disregard that pro­vision.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : That is not a formalit'· · that is a direction as to how an applicatio~ should be treated.

Mr. THEODORE: It would give the Minister power to grant a lease to someone who should not have the lease, and refuse to grant a lease to someone who ought to get it.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The hon. geljtle­man knows that is absolutely beyond the mark.

Mr. THEODORE : If they passed the clause as it stood, that power would be in the hands of the Ministe;·, and the para­graph should be amended in the direction suggested by the hon .. member for Eacham.

After a pause,

Mr. RYAN: Surely, the Minister was not going to ignore the sugg13stion made by the hon. member for Eacham, who sug­gested that the paragraph be altered so as to provide that a leaee might be granted notwithstanding any slight informality, pro­vided the Act had been substantially com­plied with.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Who is going to define what is " a slight informality," any more accurately than as the clause stands at the pr%ent time?

::'11r. RYA::"f: At prBsent there was no limitation but the Minister said that he was prep~red to limit it to .a sul1stantial compliance with the Act. All that the hon.

member for Ea.cham ·dnired was· [8.30 p.m.] to get that principle cml?o·~ied

in the Act, "" that the Mm1ster could not be worried aftc>rwards by com­panits asking· to be rclie'",-ed from substan~ tidiy complyins with the Act and ·;.~re there­for~" c::.:t~t'ed_ t<J> a lf''.cf:,~. If the :1\J;::l~ter was rc.'lsonablo and desired to get on with the Bill, he would ·accept the suggc,lion. If ti:e hon. gentleman would amend thB clause m thE\ direction sugg"''ted, it would satisfy the ho21. membDr for JV[aranoa, who had moved the on1is'lion of the paragraph; bu~ if he i!l­tended to pmsist in rebining the clause m ifs present form, he trusted some other h?n· members would adduce .arguments whwh v,~ould prevail upon the hen. gentleman.

Mr. HUNTER appreciated thD rPasons given by the Minister for including the para­graph in the clauee, but he was c.onficlent that it went a great .dc<tl beyond the han. g0ntleman's intentions, and for that mason the Committ(',, would be to blame if they passed the clause as it .stood. He was pre-

Mining jo1· Goal and [6 AUGUST.] Mineral Oil Bil!. 587

par<Jd to withdraw his amendment if thB Ministnr would 'allow the amendment sug­gBsted by the han. member for Ea{)ham to be made; but, if not, then the best thing they oould r!o was to delete thB paragraph altogether and leave no doubt about the matter. If it were rebinBd in its prBsent form, it would lead to all sorts of trouble. If an applic~tion was rBfused, a subsequBnt part of the chuse providBd thr:t the appli­cant should be informed of the reasons for such refusal, and the applic.1nt might then claim the benBfits of the paragraph under discussion. In fact, a m~; n 1night go to the hon. gentlBman and say that he intended to put in an application, but did not, but his intentions wer·e good.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : 'That is non­sense.

Mr. HUNTER: It would open the door to the Minister completely ignoring the pro­visions of the cluuse if he chose. It was RhsolutF·ly worthleoJ awl meaningl~·ss as it stood.

The SECRETARY :FOR J'.HNES: If it would Bave time and be any satisfaction to hon. member,,, he wus prepared to meet them by moving the addition to the para­graph of the words, "i.f its provisions have been substantially complied with."

Mr. RYAN: That is ,a good deal b8tter. (Laughter.)

The SECRETARY FOR Mr"\IES: He was always desirous of meeting han. members, provided they we~·o reasonable. He believed the amendment he had sugg<'"oted would meet their objections and would limit the operation of the paragraph to c<Jrtain in­formalities which might occur.

Mr. HUNTER was prepared to accept the .amendnvent sugg ~steel by th<e han. gentle­man, and he thecNore asked permission to withdraw his amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tho SECRETARY FOR MINES moved the insertion, in line 53, after the word "Act," of the words " if its provisions have been substantially complied with."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. THEODORE moved the omission, in line 57, of the words " six hundred and forty," with the view of in•serting the words "three huwlred .and twE'nty." At present the arr ·' allowed for a coalmining lease was 320 acres, and, as thero was provision for an amalgamation of leaoes, 640 acres was too much. He sa·.y no distinct adv.antage in allowing l-arge areas to 'be .taken up for <X·<tl­mining. Iu Queensland the industry could be carried on b·c· small as ''ell ,as by large companies. If it could ho proved that they had any great f•xtont of coal measures of great depth, and it was necessary to havB an aggreg:ati<m of captiai to dBvelop those 1nr asures, somefhin&' might, p0rhap~J b,J said in .favour of the lllDreased arB a; but thB present area of 320 acres W'lS sufficient to enable comp.:mie1 or individual proprietors to carry on mining operations for many years if the sc1ms were 'of any thickness at all. There wacJ no objection to the .ama~ga­mation of two leases for special purposes, hut only for special purposes. It was dis­tinctly undemocratic to increase the <!rea to 640 .acres, and he hoped the hon. gBntleman

would accept the ,amendment for the pur­pose of restricting thB industry to small companies .and small proprittors, because there wa.s an -advantage in keeping the busi­ness in the hands of small men rather than in encour-aging large monopoliBs.

Ti"' SECRETARY FOR ;\liNES: They had to reeolloct that the arc.J named in the Bill w~., the maximum .1reJ> which could be asked fo1~. Tho officers of the dfpartment were of the opinion that the are11 should remain at 640 acres as mentione-d in the Bill. It was an increase OVET tho area mentioned in the presJnt Act, (qt aftm careful con­sideration the officers of thn denartment were of opinion that the.) were justified in recom­mc•nding the maximum asked for in ihe BilL The han. membm· for Chillagoe was in error regarding the depth of coal. The greatest development that would tal'e place in con­nection with the coal industry would be in the Central district, v..rhcre larg._:• so-an1s of coal had been pro;-ed. :From the oiricial records i!l the Mines Dep.1rtm8nt, in a groat many instances mining operations would be conducted at a depth of 1,000 foot. That may not be d~ep ''hen compared with gold mines which wer0 de' doped at a d·. pth of over 2,000 feet, Lut it was a fair depth so far as coahnining vyas c,Jn('ern 3d, .a_:_ld a large exp0nditure of capital '"'' ~s necessary for the plant that would be necese<1ry to undertake its o~1erations. He could not acc0pt the amendment.

LIEUT.-COLONEL RANKIN (Burrum) was glad that the J\!Iinieboi- was oppuoed to the a1nend1nent. It ;;s difficult to get members opJ:Cdsito to recogni "" the difference that existed betwc<m goldmining and coalmining. \Vhile 6!;.0 acres might ,,,om a bi·ge area, they must renvmber that the lease was for twenty-one years, and if they worked on one seam all that time they would get over a cunsiderable area of country, and some­times over consider ,,.bly more than 040 acres.

Mr. HUNTER: Twenty years is a loug- time.

LIEUT.-COLONEL RANKIN: Not in the life of a coalmine. There were coalmines in England worked for 100 years, and he knew one in Que,~nsland which had beN! worked for forty ;rear.<. If they fixed thco time of the !ea,e at twenty-one years, then they should give a ;ufficient area of country to work on. It meant a large capital expendi­ture to open up and develop a coalmine on anything like business lines. It was very seldom it was worked on tribute like gold­mines.. In coalmining they had to have the n1o;.{· up-to-date n1achincry and applia~ces in ordei- to get tl1o coal out cheaply and com­pei.e favourably with th<" markets of the other StateD, and the ,,-0rld, too, for that matter. The Mines Regulo"tion Act required a cort.~.;.in nu1nber of men to be ernployed, and when n,ore than the number specified were employed, then two shafts had to be sunk, and that entailed a furthN p.rtlay. The object of the Bill was to onconrar o the ~le­vP!opmnnt of their coalfielde. In many m­stances coalfiPlds v;cre n1i].:s a~say fro1n a railway, and additional expense h:1d to be borne ~to acquire raihvay co1nn1unioation. If they want."d the rc'l'ion'; at presPnt un~x­plored to bo opened up, then they must grve a sufficient area of land to thcs·e 1vho 1vere making the inve,tment, as it would be difll.­cult to gd ptople to inv,cst their money if the area were made any smaller than that mentioned in the Bill.

Lieut.-Colonel Rankin.}

'.588 1\lfinin:f for Coal and [ASSEMBLY.] 111ineml Oil Bi'l.

Mr. \Y [J\:STANLEY: The S?cretary for Mines had gi\en no ad~c:-Juate rilaPon for increasinL the Hn ; "nd, as it lvtd bu3n 320 a0r '~ since the 1\tinin,:r ... 1\ct 1.~.a,:; paE:::,ed in 152i, it c.honld br sufficient new. No o:ne \· LrJ k:n?"'N ~~n;;Tthi2.1g a.bout cocJmining woald c.dl l,GGO feet v.;ry deep. He had work ·l i 1 a c nlmine 2,000 feet de<Jp himc;e!f. Ile k·w· · iu-:~.-\n .. ,:;s \Yherp t'\O or thr"" 0 shafts ·were v.·•'L·~ ;1-::r~ c.:n h ... ~; ;;, dozen f.-).~tln.-:: of coal at one , il ann benr·.Jh t1u other. He knew whnrc capi'·alists pa'd a ro:· alk np to ls. 6d. per ton 'n th' amou;Jt of coal they brought ou1·, ar.d 1·y -~rl<::in~· on dift.Jr(~nt f,~·Jrr.s they ,,,ade t profit o•1t of their outltv. Cnal­rri 'lin '' as iL its inf:u:1:y in C'll::8llSland "t the prP .,,,t time, as he knew places which turned . 1It n1o, coa.l in one d.:t.y th:nJ. a Inine in 0 '_e,- nsland turned out iri. a week. Th( Bill v.- tS n1aking it easier '1nd easier for hrgo co1npanieF, ;(s it incr<~fL~.,-d the areas, redu~··d tho runts and royeJtics, and nw.do f-,r t~1e aggr2c_,ation of large companies to tl.,; r·;:c:·: :_on c£ smaller ones. ("r,,,.Jmines hm lrc ds of mil··J from the cnast, no matt•:r "\vL·1t c c ~•sio.ns ··re ~ivcn to the1n~ would not b, able h CDmpete with pl:Jces like ~-Y U!.' 1 ·\~·, -.,,·hic:l. h··"d t n~ry facility for get-tm2· nf thc1r co 1!. lie thoug·ht the amero ·:t moved bv ihe ho•t. IT.'mber for Chi1ln. ce l:lich' vcr:i-- ·"·ell be a.ccephd.

Qu·ctioa~-That the •· ords pro.po"td to be omitted (J£r. ThcodfJre'• r;mendment) stand part of the clause-put; and th•·· Committr• e divided:-

AYES) 34. Mr. Allan Mr. Luke

Appel Macartney BarnLs, G. P. Mackay Bar_Jes, >'·-. H. Mackintosh Bebbington PLget Rof,k( r Petrie Bouchard Rankin Brid~es Rf·-~ •.<" rts Caine Somerset COors, r, B. H. s~e'\tens Corser, E. n. C. Talmie Denham 'T'r ut 1' .JUEias Vawl•·o Fnrsyth \Yel 'Jy Grant 'White GU:lll \Yi- nholt Hcd:;e vv·nu-·ms

Telle1·s: Mr. Hodge and Mr. Mack;;y. NOE:!, 24.

Mr. Ada1:1son Barber Bertram Bo1;';1nan Coyne Fihelly Faley Gilday Gillies Hamilton Hardacrf Hu'-:::::r

Hr. Huxham Kirw~\ll Land L".rcon1be Le~lll :~1 ,,,,y ·~;-ccf'lrm8·-.... k O'Sullivan Pa~n~e f-S;_·~ ~

Theodore \l":n"'Uo:•l<'Y

'Pellers: JVIr. Bertn:m and Hr. Huxham.

PAIR.

Aye-Mr. Blair. Na-Mr. Nturphy.

R\'"Jolved in tlie affirmative.

Mr. HL'KTEl: maved the omission of the '':ord "si ty" in line 58, and the >ubstitu­bon of tho \Yord "h.-e•liy " thorefor. He thought the ::\Iini ·ter would see the reason­ablene·s of the am,·ndment, beeance after al!owim: a company to prospect th~ area allowed-na:c.wly, 2,500 acres~and th~y dis· eov,·red oil in one bo,re, therP was no need for the compa.ny to make any furth<'r at­tempt, and, except for surface work, the

[Mr. Winstanley,

cm:~.pany ,yoald not want lar area. He therefore suggested that 20 acres bo taken as thr maxinnun.

The S ECHE'l'ARY FOR :1HKES Paid he Y'a:' prepared to cJ:rnprOL!l;: e bJ- 1r::.king the I.naxi1nur.n DO acres.

JI.Ir. II eSTER: He- would acc"pt i.h,;,t.

The SECRET"~RY FOR r,.:nms moved the deletion Of tl,e :,'rorJ "'sixty" on line 58, \vith a· view of insJrting the "\-Vurd ·• thirt.y.''

P...._m,"·nt1mtnt agreed Lo.

On the moticn of the sECPl:T \PV FOR MINES, the .. .-ords ,/;~e ~chm;dr~d and twent:-r" iP line 7, p;-.ge 5, "\vero umitted, and the 'Word " six! y " insert+:d in li-:_ .1 th2reof.

Mr. WI.:\ST/d\<LLY mo,-ed Le omission of the ·v;ords '' exp·--·1diture of ll10DFY" in line 10. Tlw clause prc•vided that the "amalgama­

t.ion of l>ase< shail ex'e"d only to [9 p.m.] the covenant for labour or expen-

diture' cf money," and clause 13 provided that, in rc·opect to mining for coal or mineral oil, the company could spend a c.ert..tin mttount o£ rnoney in other ways-an machinery and a numb,·r of different ways­instead of spending it in the E mplay of laLmr. As he had point!'d out on t:1e second re;Ldin:.;, the G:~~rerrnnent tried to include 'a similar clau"c in tl:' Mining Act of 1908, but after strenuous oppc'ii;ou, it ""'' dropped. As bad been point d out) in other pla.cc::; it had not worked out J~.eneficidlv. \Vh. t was r<-ally ''·'anted, If a cornpcny toc)k '--P land ~nd "\VFnt in for ( o;;,l, '.\as that some prospecting for co:1l should b" dono, and the mo"t benefi­ci.J] thirrg to do \"a, to spc•1d money in find­ing coal, and then to spend mow:; on plant aft,•rvvrrds.

Lieut.-Colonel R-l.:,KIN: C:cn they not do th:"ct in any <.:~~<::t;?

Mr. WINSTANLEY: As ~ matt.u of fact, they did not do it.

'fhe SEcR;:;T.I.RY FOR n[I;>E~e: Thi,_applies only to ]uses. It does not :pply to ;ICUl~es.

Mr. WINST.\::':JLEY: Tl>cro was no likeli­hood of a cc .. "pany fpending muLy when they "cere working on license. As a matter of fact. repe ;t~dly in Queens:and cowpanies had, spent the ;•:hole, of ;choir capita) on the surl<H>J, and, y,·non M-,. :v nad to go UJ\.Vn be~ low they had pra·ctical!;.- no capita!, and the consequence \Va , that instuul of being b-:nefi­cial for the comp·.:my or bemfi, ial to the co1nn1unit;>, it y, a,, the reverse. The bulk of the freehold miP·o•al len"es in Quecendand at the pr.: ·<ent time we1·e not put to the best use, and in a great mL:::ly inst.Lnc ~S v.rere not rut to any use ct all, owing to the absence of labour condit.ions. Thev had a glaring exam~Je in this State, wi, hout going further afio'd, of the injurious elf< ~t of )!lowing the expenditure of money to Le p ''t of the c·~·v~_'nant ir..·_t1" ,·1d of the b.bour t 0nditions being fulfilled; and, "~ he hc.d pointed out previously, he certainly considt:,red it \VDS a blot on the BilL The Bill would l0 bett.er, t!1e con1munity wou1d be beit:,r, and the in~ du•rtry would be befi·cr if that provision were entirely eliminated. The Iatour conditions were certainly mote importa:.t than the spending of n1oney, as it oftentiinf'~ was spent in other wayo, and the Minister ';:·ould be well adviE<cd in <WJepting the amendn1ent, and when they cgme to the claP3e dealing with the matter in a proper sense, they should delete the whole clause.

JJ1 ining for Coal c.nd [6 AUGUST.] Minera-l Oil Bill, 58!}

'lhe SECHETARY FOit MINES: As he had indicated when introducing the Bill, the matter of :o llbstituting the expenditure of money in certain ca'•ed for the manmng conditions had b~eL .-cry cafefully col sidered, and it had be2u decidecl that this substitution should be pre·oented to the House. That haYing been so, he could not see his wv,y to accept the umen·lment. The object of th3 manning conditions or the Pxpendit.ure of money was to sho..- the bona fide, of the lesoee, so far as the propert.y was cone ·.rned. \Vhat, was the diffPren~c if, in the opiuion of the lessee, ope ... ·ation' -vvhid1 v.ere generally carried out by th~>so \YhJ ~;vero n1anning under the rnarJning conditious .. ·-should be suspended for the moment fo" the purpo c of expending the necc ,ar:· amount of capital in the erection of the necesgary plant to carry out those opcratioLS? Crmld that plant be erected b;c a wave of tho hand? \-Vas it not necessary that lahour shomd be employed?

Mr. U -1ULLIVAN: Th,t would be included in the lal:our conditions.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Was it not necc3ssary that labour should be em­ployed in erecting that plant, and putting it into position? What was the drfference? Did the hon. member who was moving the amendment desire the Committee to con­clude that he thought the only nec0,,,ary condition should be that a certain nurJlber of men should be employ<Jd upon that pro· perty, and that the expenditure of money which must necessarily cau.'e the employ­ment of a large number of mE'n should not be tak011 into considerCttion? If that was so, he could not understand the objection of the hon. member. So far as the depart­ment Yeas conc<Jrned, the position was this: That lk lessee must either man that ground b,· a certain number of men, or that he must expend Certain amount of capita), which mt:>E-_,_t ,~nl:-,1oyrnent.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: Not necessarily.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Did the hon. member suggest that this machinery could be <lrected by a wave of the hand, that it did not necessitate, the employment of engineers and other artificers for the purpose of working that plant and ma­chinery? Why should the hon. member say that, so far as the expenditure of money was concerned, it should only be expended upon those who were employed in sinking and dri.-ing, but should not be expended in the wage; of those who were erecting the necE,C1ary plant and machinery? They must recollect also that that machinery had been manufactured, and wages paid in its manufacture. Was not that a valuable con· sideration, and should not the administr:ation permit the txpenditnre of that money to be allowed as a substitute for the employ­ment of those who were either sinking or driving? That was an equitable proposi· tion, which should be placed in an up·to­date nw'lsure such as this. To simply re­tain the obsolete provision that the only condition must be the employment of so many :nen to the acm, and that a larger expenditure of money, perhaps four times the mount, on plant and machiner·,· should not be taken into consideration, would in­flict a gross amount of injustice on the worker. For these r·easons, he had intro· duc.-d the alternati.-e in the Bill, and he did not propose to accept the amendment of the hon. member.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN was very sorry to hear that the Minister had come to that de­CISIOn. The hon. gentleman had said a, great deal about th0 cost of machinery being taken into consid<•ration, and then went on to say that the manufacture of this ma­chinery would employ labour. They ad­mitted that, and the hon. gentler.nan was only raising a bogey to knock rt down. Members of this side rccognis.:·d the prin­oiple that while machinery was erected, provided that machinery employed as many men as were necessary to man the mine,. that ground was manned for all the pur­pos!?s of the Act. There was another con­sideration. There might be a lot of people around that coalfield depending upon the industry proceeding in a proper .manner; but if the owncro> of the lease mrght shut down at any time, and get exrmption from the labour conditions because they had ex­pended a certain amount of money on the machinery, and throw the whole of the people around the coalfield out of employ­ment, the tradespeople would also suffer from the depreuion. '\Vas not the worker to share in some of the benefits of the in­dustry :• Must he be sacked by the manage­ment at any time? That was what it ap­peareJ to hillr would be the position. He could quite under•tand why exemptions were so prevalent in mining fields \\hen they had the :Minister going on in this way. If the workers were not going to shore in the benefits of the iQ.dustry more than this, there wuJ going to be a lot of hardship entailed on them on the coalfields of the futu~·e. They knew there. were ,c?mpanies \\lncn, f")r hJtahon purpos(: ~. "';..-OUiCt go and put down a lot of machinery on the ground, and profess to be going in for de.-elopment, but it never worlwd out at all. That had been the case, and it might be the case h!)re.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : The hon. mem­ber knows that it must be erected; it cannot be lying on the ground.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: The han. gentleman knew it had been done.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Yes, and we ha.-e found the money for it, too.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Those people had no good intent; they only wished to float the mine and get 0xemption from the labour conditions.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : It was a very good intention as far as they w~re con· cerned, because thry allowed it to lapse, and then they bought it in for about 50 per cent. le••x than it would cost.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: would apply here.

The same thing

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : It has to be erected, and standing on the ground.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN thou)lht it was best to adhere to the labour conditions. No company was going to sbrt mininr,- ope;-a­tions unless they equipped themselves wrth machinery; but they ought to insure that while the company was in pow,ession of the lease they must work it. The hon. members for Gympie and Charters Towers must know that this was open to a lot of abuse.

Mr. WILLIAMS: I think it is a very good clause.

JJir. O'Sttllivan.]

li90 Minin:J for Goal and [ASSEMBLY.] Mineral Oil Bill.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: The hon. member might be looking after the capitalistic in­terest, but members on his side were look· in_g after th<: interest of the people. The Brll was gorng to give certain conditions to enable the natural resources of Queens­land to be exploited, not in the interests of the people-the whole trend of the Bill was to make it easier for the canitalist to exploit those natural resources. The safest conditions to rely on were the labour con­ditions. They had had mining conditions whittled. away in the past, and they should see to It now that the workers' interests were conserved. This would leave it open to so many abuses that the exploitation of the people would go on a" well as the development of the resources of the State.

LIEUT.-COLONEL ~ANKIN: How anybody )I as gomg to explort Queensla~d by dumping down a lot of machmery on a mining lease and lotting it go to rot was some­thing foreign to his intelligence. He could !lot conc,,•Ive of anybody taking up a mining leiSe under thrs Brll, and spending an enormous amount of money, except for the p~rposa of _developing the property. They might t""ke It for granted that the men who put m01~0y into an enterprise of this kind did not do so for the amusement of the fhing. ~hFY. went there to maim money. Nobodv m hrs senses would follow the line ·Of action suggested by the hon. member \Yho ha.l just spoken, and when he dis­-cussed how the clo,cing down of a mine was gomg to affect the tradespeople in the locality iw was getting ~\vay from the sub­ject. He could conceive. apart from some of the. arr umenls of the Secretary for Mines, the WISdom of a clause of this kind. Let them trace the possible happenings to any­owl who took up a lea', 1 under this measure not eome fantastic thing which only had its root in imagination. Let them look what would b,. done by the man who went there to make money, which was thr· motive power of most pcnple ~ho went into a business of this kiJCd. Dnder olauso 13 it was laid down tha.t, the lessees must employ one man to every 40 acres for the first bra years; that wccs. to s 'Y, he must employ sixteen m2n for tho fir t two 0·ear", o.r expend £1,600 per annum durmg that penod. He might hc,ve ro, son to belie.-e from explorations nnde b,~ someone Pise who had taken up a prospect .ng area that pavable coal was to be _f-Jund ; and he. did not !]"o through the ordmary coUJ;sa of prospecting, but began bv smbn;: a snaft to oecure the coal that was there.

Mr. THEODOEE : He has to put up ma­chin•:ry.

LIEUT.-COLONEL RANKIN: Of course h'l h .d to put up machirrer''· He had to ,,m~,loy sixt.::en n1Bn straight a'\~·av. He would ask { h~~"o me:n~or., \vho ln~e-;y Such a gret1t doal abou1 mm1ng to explam in detail what :lwy Fonlcl do ,·ith those sixteen men until the plor3 was opened up. If thev worked thrc•c shifh c•f eight hours each liow many men could v·ork at a time at the bottom"? It mi~ht he impossible to <"ork that number Df rr: m; and the man takin~C up the leaso 'Youlcl h: ve to mak<' un bv the amount of m1ch!nory he put on., C~msequPntly, the machmery clause opc·roted m favour of the Govern"1("_,t, as opposed to the lessee because if a. m:n '' not 0mploying the 'requisite mnr:?,_r, h. CC.C!ld be comp2lled, if the admrm- ra~1ve head of the department re-

[Jir. O'Sullivan.

quired it, to incur the necessary amount of expenditure. Then. suppose a man who h"d commenced sinking operations found water, he ·would have to cL:.ase operations £or a thno until he got command of the water. Perhaps he would have to sink another shaft in order to drain the water awa). And, assum­ing that he found payable coal, he would probably have to get railway communication. He might have to lay down 2 or 3 miles of railway; he would also have to get machinery corresponding to the depth !rom which he had to haul the Poal, and to cope with the water. lt was of the highest importance that the Government should have the right to say that either the labour condi­lions were fulfilled, or there should be tha necessary expenditure of money, and he was g-lad the Minister was disinclined to have the clause amended, as suggested by members on the other side.

1\lr. THEODORE understood that the hon. member was going to give some of his practical experience on t_he question, but _all the time he was speakmg from the pomt of view of the colliery proprietor, and he did not think that the hon. member's state­ments affected one iota the arguments put forward by members of the Opposition. The work necessary to carry on the development of a colliery would employ the number of men required under the labour covenant;. and if a person was c:trrying on small operatiOns, and was not likely to employ si".teen men, then he had no right to an area of 640 acres and could escape the obligation by having only 320 acres.

Lieut.-Colonel RANKIN: He need not of necessity sink a large shaft to comn1cnce with.

Mr. THEODORE: If hew~; not prepared to comply with a reasonable covenant in regard to labour conditions on a large area, he should not have that large area. There was a t<"ndency in the Bill to l£>s:en t_h<: obli­gations on the proprjt_,tor, and th1s g1v1ng of an alternative covenant to the hbour con­clition as another attempt to give easier conditions. The Minister for 1\Iip.cs stated that putting up machinery would n< ·'<bsarily involve the employment of labour. If the hbour employed wa'< equoJ to the labour covenant there would be no n"CC9city for the alternative covenant. because the labour covenant would apply. If the .::rcction of machinery w~re likel:· to employ si '•:teen men for every 640 acres, then why insert the second alternative? It was an attempt to

give colliery proprietors easier [9.3D p.m.] conditions. If they could not · fulfil the ordinary labour con­

ditions, they might expend a certain sum of money at certain periods of the year in the erection of machinerY. They might hang up the work of a colliery for t•~>·o or thre'l years by carting on to the ground ever,<' oix months a portion of the mn.chinery that would be required eventually in developinJ: the mine, and thus get entire exemption fr< oa working the claim.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : The machinery has to be erected.

Mr. THEODORE: Its ecection might only involve the employment of labour for a fort­night in each six months.

Liout.-Colorrel RANKI:-; : The han. member must know that nobody would bring ma­chinery on to the ground and k<'~p it there for three years. Some of it might b2 obso­lete in three years.

Mining for Goal and (6 AUGUST.] Mineral Oil Bill. 591

Mr. THEODORE: The hon. member knew a great deal about working a colliery, but other hon. members also knew something about the working of minAs, and the statement that n1achincry ,.1Tould be obsolete in three years could only be made with the idea of mislead­ing hon. members. They could not take the stateinJnt soriGusly. The provision ,.., as a de­partm·A that should not be permitted. h colliery proprietors had a genuine desire to develop their min~,, then the labo'.H condi­tions Yl ore fuir, though even in that re3peut there was a dopartllre which was not criso and w:tich they would have an opportunity of di,c~V~.3ing on a later clause. Under the present Act one man must 'be employed for every 10 acres, but under the Bill it was proposed to employ only one man for every 40 acres for the first two years, and one man for every 20 acres during the >~c~nd period of the lease. He objedud to that. Right through the Bill there was a t8ndency to give <easier conditions to the exploiters of coal measures, and that should not be al­lowed in the interests of the people.

Mr. WINSTANLEY had heard nothing in the arguments of either the Secretary for :Mine-, or tlw hon. member for Burrum to convince him that the amendment was not a good one. 'rhe hon. m~mber for Bu.rrum made "' long rambling statement with refer­ence to mimng deveiopment, but it some­times happened thzlt while one prospector took up a lease and bona fide prospected, quite a number of otheriJ who took up leases, in­stead of employing labour in prospecting work, spent a certuin sum in the purchase of machiner:-, und waited to see if the genuine prospector got something which would en­hance th,, value of their leaseholds. If he :got nothing, the other,, could cart their ma­chinery uway. There wc·rc leases which were taln n up for the express purpose of exploit­ing the public, and sometimes they were very succc,§ful, and one means adopted by the exploit: rs was to s1>end a certain sum of mm "Y on machinery, and, if things did not turn out as they expectfocl, they could take th0ir machinery down and take it away and forfeit their le:,sc". ~The cia'lse was neithm· "' good thing in the interest-s of min­ing nor in the interests of bona fid':l pros­pt:ding, and certainly it was not a good thing for the nmmunity. He "as satisfied that, unlP··~ some an1endment ,.-vas n1ade, what he for<''hadowed vtould be prov--d to be true, and thott, instead of employing labour_, they would SllPnd money in machin­ery, and then, if it suited their purposJ, the machinery ,,-auld be carted away somewhere

-else. The SE::RETARY FOR MINES: Tho hon. mem­

ber lc.ows that the machincJry must be left on the property.

Mr. 1\TI\"STANLEY: Not after the lease is forfeited.

The SlilRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: \Yhat is oecond-hand mmmg machinery worth? Sometimes not more than 10 per cent. of its cost.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: If the hon. member knew anything of mining machinery, he knew that sometimes it was sold to half a dozen different mines, and although it was possible that in some instancee it v, us bought :or a more :"mg, they got pretty well the full valu<'~ for it as a ruln when they sold it. There had be0n a great deal of talk 1tbout the erectjon of ma<ohinery, but what did

that amount to in the ca:;e of a aemi-portable engine, or even of an ordinary horizontal engine used for winding?

Quescion-That the words propm.,d to be omiot0d (Jir. Winstanley's amendment) stand part of the clause-pm ; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 34. Mr. Allan

Appel Barnes, G. P. Barnes, \V. H. Bebbington Booker Bouchard Bridges Caine Corser, B. H. Corser, E. B. C. Denhaw Douglas Forsyth Grant Gunn

nrr. Luke l'~facartney J,·-~tckay

Mackintosh Paget Petrie Rankin Roberts Stevens Swayne Tolmie Trout Vowles \Ve!Lby White Wienholt Williams , Hodge

TelleJ'S: J\fr. Bouchard and Mr. Caine.

Mr. Barber Bertram Bowman Coyne Fihelly Foley Gilday Gillies Hamilton Hardacre Hunter Huxham

Tellers: Mr.

NOES, 23. lVIr. Kirwan

Land Larcom be Lennon May McCormack O'Sullivan Pa~-ne Ryan Theodore \Vinstanley

Kirwan and Mr. Land. PAIR.

Aye-Mr. Blair. No-Mr. Murphy. Resolved in the affirmativ'"· Cluuse 7, as amended, put and passed. On clause 8-" Provisions as to upplications

for licenses or leases"-Mr. O'SULLIYAN wanted to. know if the

party who marked out his land wo-:-~ld be prokcte::I from anoth,,r man who might hear that he was going to take up a lease and lodge an application and be heard at the oame time as the man who had pegged out his land? He did no:t know anything about e:oalmining, but he knew in goldminimr it had often happened that a mun pew_~ed out his ground, and another man got to hear of it, and lodged an application for the same ground. Now, the man who. went to the trouble of marking out the ground, and was not able to get in his application before the other man, should be protect'ld, as he marked out the land.

'The bECRETARY FOR MINES; So he will be protf·cted.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: There was a paragraph of the clause which said-

" But if two or more applirations for the same land, or comprising in part the same land, are duly lodged ut the same time, the warden shall de-cide by lot which of those applications shall be deemed to have been first lodged."

The SECRE~'ARY FOP. l'.IIN?S: They have all the conditions precedent to fulfil.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: A precediHg para­graph sa-id-

" Prm-iderl that the applicc·lt may mark the land before lodgin-; his appli­cation."

It was necessary for him to mark the land before he mad8 his appliration.

Mr. O'S-uUivan.]

592 JJf. ining for Coal and [ASoEl\iBLY.] 111 inual Oil Bill

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It is not neces­sary fo.r either of them to mark the land. They have just to go in and make the application.

i\lr. U' SULLIVAN : He admitted that the man could do that, but a bona fide pros­pectcr who marked out his land ·,hould be given priority in c1ase another 1nan got in ahead of him by hearing that he wa••. going to take up a lease.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR :'~liNES: The han. m·,mbor was under a misconception. Th8 firs~ paragraph read-

'· 'every appliccmt for a license or lea.oe shall, w1thin two days or such further time as the ••:.uden may allow atter his application has been lodged, mark the land applied for."

The fir .t thing he did was to lodge the application. He did not mark the land be­fore he made the application, and anybody could .oee him making the application. He walked into the office, and lodged his ap­plication. That vo.ts the commencement of the whole thing. Then. within two days, or such further time ·.as the warden might al­low he had to mark the land. He could sr· .,' from what the bon. member said, that he "' .10 of opinion that the fir'lt action on th· ptrt of the appliunt was to go and mark the Lnd, and that, while marking the land, some ether prospector might see him, and go quic:,ly tD the warden's office and make an a;Jplication. That ''as not so. The ap­pli<·•w '' ont to the "arden's office in the first inscc '.Lu and made tho opplication, _and then "-,-ithin two da7s, ld' such further time a, thJ y .trden 1e1ay allow," he had to u:1rk the land. The ma:1 who made the fir,.t appli,, ,tirn w.1s, undoubtedly, in every instanc1 th.· man who discovered the show.

Mr. COYNE did not agree with the Se,;­retary for J'.1ineJ, because on the face of it he wa.s not corr.ect. The next paragraph read, "Provided that the applicant may mark the land befor•e lodging his applicu­tion."

The SECRETARY FOR MI~ES : That is so. I-Ie <:an tb tt

Mr. COYNE would point out where it was neceb>ary to mark the land in order that it cculd be identified. If a man went out into the plain or treeless country, or level oountry, where there were no land marks, no tre<>.·' by which he could identify the spot for which he wished to get a license or >a leas<·, he mnst carry pegs with him, or something of that sort, and while he was doing that, the parasite who was watching to soo the result of his prospecting, went in, made an application. and got hold of the spot. It 11as therefore neoessary that priority should be given to the man who first marked the land in prcferen<X- to th" " waster" who watched the other fellow and th'·" rushBd in ahead of him.

The SECRETAHY FOR MINES : How can he ascertain what the other man is doing?

~\Ir. COYNE: It was the simplest thing in the world. A man put in a peg and the leabf he applied for wust run north, south, east, o;· west, and it must bo in the shape of .a rectangular paralklogram. Therefore it was a simple thing for the other fellow who had b'''· 't watchin~·· him for days or wt'eks to kno\1· in what direction he was going to

[Mr. O'S?tllhm'.

malm his claim, ·and he then rushed in ahead of him and got hold of the land. Thm:e was. no getting away from that f.a~t, and rt was just as well that some prov1swn should be made whereby the par<tsite should not gBt the benefit of the hone ,t prospector's work.

Mr. P A Y='TE thought there was a good deal in what the hon. member for Kennedy had said. It would be an utter impossibility for any man to put in. a claim unless I:e had some guide. In motkmg an apphcatwn to. the warden for a certain piece of land the usual proceeding was to start from a P< g and run so manv chains to a certam pomt of the compass on"e way and so many chains to another point of the compass. He. de.fied any practical miner to make an apphcatwn to a warden unless he was a scientific man and knew every point of the compass, at;td who could go along and say, "My lease wrll start from a certain degree," and so on. That was a matter that n'<.%lly wanted honest consideration. Surely the Secr·etary for Mines did not think that every man who usually followed the occupation of a miner or prospector could come along and point out every point of tho compass.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I find miners to be men who have a eonsiderable amount of knowledge of the compa,,, ard I never · knew one who did not carry a compass.

Mr. CoYNE: It is a question of the nearest land mark.

The S~ORETARY FOR MI~ES: I want to know where this spy is going to get this information so that he can rush in and get ahead of the prospector. I want a little in­formation on this subject.

Mr. PAYNE : He had been a miner and he knew exactly what hB was talking about, and no man in the House and no man out­side the House could make an application to the warden without being in a po<ition to locate his starting point, unlesd he knew exactly the points of the compa· .. s. Unless he was permitted to put down a peg, how w.as he going to explain the locality of the lease he wi3hed .. to take up? Before they went very far the Secretary for Mmes would find that he Juvd made a mistake; that the thing was unworkable. Just imagine a man making· an application to the warden for ·a certain piece of land and not being able to d<·;cribe it. A man who was watching him could go in the same day and make appli­cation and say, " That is the piece of land I applied for," and there would be a dispute •at once. Unle>s a man was permitted to put F(}me mark on the ground to loe"te the spot he wish<'d to take up, there would be con­fusion.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : So he can.

;)Ir. P A TNE: He should get priority for it. The first man who made an impre;;sion on the ground-if he put in a peg, or, if there was no timber about, if he piled up a heap of s~om·.o, or made a hole in the ground-he should get priority. What posi­tion would they be in if half a dozen applied for a leas·9? The man who discovered it first might not get the lease. Only the other day a ca.se cccme under his notice '".here a man had to go 40 miles to a warden; and here they would be within a day's journey to Brisbane. He hoped the Minister would see his wav clear to make a clause­similar to the provision in the Mining Act,

Mining for Goal and [6 AUGUST.j Mineral Oil Bill. 593

under which you had only to put in a peg and point out the boundaries on the ground: which you wished to take up.

i\Ir. COYNE said he hoped the Minister would give an a5surance that something would be done in this direction.

The SECRETARY FOR 1\liNES: It was most extraordinary th"t such confusion ap· peared to exist. The hon. member for Ken­nedy had been pointing out that if a man was compelled to mark his propos"Jd lease, somebody might ssee him doing it, and run away to the ''arden's court, put in an ap­plication, a.nd get the lease, owing to his application being in before any other. That was exactly what they proposed to provide against in the Bill. Under the present Act, it was necessary that the pegging should be done in the first instance; and it was owing to that that in several instances others, who had seon that, had tak0n advantage of the information they had thereby gained. It was proposed in the Bill that that need not be done before the application was made.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: It may. The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Of

course, it ''may.'' It wus obligatory under the Act; but under this Bill, to protect the man who was the first discoverer, it was not a condition precedent to. his appli­cation for a lease that he must peg the land. "Of com·sP, he must give wme data mark from which to start in his description; but he might do the pegging witnin two days after the application, o.r within such time as tho >'arden allowed him. But, in order to protect l::im, it was not necessary that he should in the first instance, before he put an e pplication in, peg the land. That was the object which the hon. member for Kennedy was aiming at, and which was pro· vided for in the Bill. The object was to protect the bona fide discoverer of a proposed lease, so that he might gain the advantage and ben··fit of his discovery and cncerprise.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: It ,.,as only when two men applied at tho same time that he asked for this to be dDJle He did not a ,k that a ma.n be made to mark the land. He only asked that where there were two applicants at the same time, the one ••ho had marked his land should have the prior claim.

The 8ECRLTARY FOR MINES: Why should he have?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: He had pointed out many in'tances where a person would know <A a leas•' about to. be taken up, and would hurry o.···'' ay to get his application in, so that he would be treated in the same manner as the bona fide aptl!icant. One who hacl gone to the trouble to fossick on the conn­try woulLl undoubtedly mark the land, but another person who was sn<>aking about on thE\ pro .. pectin'l' area might be watching m minutely as to see an opportunity for get­ting the same land. He trusted that the Mi 1ister v. Juld oee that what he was asking for was in the best interests of the bona fide investor.

The SECRET_\.RY FOR MINES thought that tlw object would be accomplished by the addition on line 21, after " application," o.f the following words:-

" and if he does so for the purpos0 of identifying the land, such marking shall be deemed to be the commence­ment of his application for the land."

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! That will meet the case.

1912-2P

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: If he> marked the land, that would give him nriority and make his appliccttion the prio.r :.:no. fie moved the amendment accordingly.

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as UI~1endecl, put and passed.

Clauses 9 and 10 put and passed.

On claus" 11-" Conditions of license or lease"-

The SECRETARY FOR MH\ES moved the addition of the following paragraph:-

" 5. Notwithstanding the license or lease, any person, who is the holder of a miner's right, and is employed. by the licensee or lessee, shall be entitled to occupy on that part of the surface of the land compris3d in the lic_ense or le~se which is not deemed to be m possessiOn of the licensee or lessee an area not exceDding one acre in extent as a residence area in accordance with the provisions of the principal Act"

When he first introduced the Bill it was suggested he thought, by the hun. member for CbiiiU:goe, that provision should be made whereby those employed in coalmi!'es shouJd .have the right to occupy a certam area m the vicinity. It was provided that o~ly a certain portion of the 640 acrco-the surtace­should be in the occupation of tho less.ce, and he was required to fence and keep It clear of prick]:, pear. The balance wouH b<> op~n for occupation in the manner set forth m this amendment, which _would allow any miner with a miner's nght to occupy a residence area.

Mr. CoYNE: How much of the G40 acres do you propose to apportion for that pur­pose?

The SECRETARY FOR Mil'\ES: Tha lesseq is entitled to 150 acres; and the be; lance will be available in .;.ere b!.Jcks to the miners engaged in the mine.

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as anwnded, put and passed.

On clause 12-" Royalty"-Mr. O'Sl.JLLIVAN: This clnuse provided

for royalty at a lower rate duri!'g the first ten years of the term than dunng the re­m:tinder of the term in every lea~e for c~al. He thought five years was a sufficient peri~d in which to develop the lease, espemally m view of the easy conditions given t~ ~he lessee. He, therefore, moved t~e omiss:on of the word " ten" in line 7, With the VIew of substituting "five."

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: There could be no possible objection, so far. a:s the Government were conm--.rned, to rece1v.1ng a larger return than what w.as proposed In t~e Bill· and if it was the desire of the Commit­tee ' he had no objection to offer to the amendment.

LIEUT.-COLON)lL RANKIN thought the suggestion was a very reasonable one. No doubt the terms of the royalty wer!'l extre~ely liberal, and he saw no hardship m reducmg the period for the lower rate.

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

On clause 13-" Labour covenant"-Mr THEODORE: ]'or the purpose of re­

duciu"g the area and thus increasin!l" _the labour conditions, he moved the omisSIOn,

Mr. Theodore]

594 Mining for Goal and [ASSEMBLY.] M ine,.al Oil Bill.

on line 29, of the word "forty," with the view of inserting the word " twenty." That would provide for the employment of one man for every 20 .acres during the first two years of the lea,Je. If that w.as carried, he would move another amendment making it necessary to employ one man .for every 10 acres during the remainder of the term of the lease. He hoped the Minister would treat this amendment as generously as he h""d treated the last.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He oould not see his way to agree to the amend­ment. The permanent head of the depart­ment and his officers had given the matter great consideration, and were of opinion that the dause was fair to both parties in that respect; but he was willing to agree to an amendment in connection with oil by agreeing to a reduction from 15 acrt>s to 10 acres per man.

Question-That the word proposed to be omitted (21£r. Theodore's amendment) stand part of the clause-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 34.

Mr. Allan Appf'l Barne", G. P. Barneo, vv. H. Bebbington Booker Bouchard Bridges Caine Corser, B. H. Corser, E. B. 0. Denham Douglas Grant Gunn Hodge Luke

Tellers: Mr. Vowles

NoES, Mr. Barber

Bertram BOWlllan Coyne Fihelly Foley Gilday Gillies Hamilton Harda£Ore Hunter Huxham

Tellers: Mr. Fihelly

Mr. Macartney Mackay Mackintosh Morgan Paget Petrie Rankin Roberts Stevens Swayne Tolmie Trout Vowles Welsby White Wienholt Williams

and Mr. Welsby.

23. Mr. Kirwan

Land LarcoL.lbe Lennon ?;.fay McCormack O'Sullivan Payne Ryan Theodore VYin':tanley

and Mr. Larcom be.

PAIR.

Aye-Mr. Blair. No-Mr. Murphy. Resolved in the affirmative.

Mr. HUNTER suggested that, instead of reducing the number of acres

[10.30 p.m.] 'Per man from 15 to 10 in the case of oil, the hon. gentleman

should increase the number of men from one to three. In the oase of a block of 30 acres that would be about enough men to work a boring plant.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : After =nsideration he was prepared to •accept a ()Ompromise by requiring the employment of one man for every 8 acres or fraction of .S acres, which would give just about the number of men required to work a horing plant.

[Mr. Theodore.

Mr. HUNTER said that he had not moved •an amendment. If the Minister would move the amendment he suggested, he would be satisfied.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES moved the deletion of the , word " fifteen " from line 34 with the view of inserting the word "eight."

Amendment agreed to.

A consequenti"'l amendment omitting "fif. teen " from line 35 and inserting " eight" was also agreed to.

Mr. HUNTER moved th" om1sswn of all the words from line 2 to line 7, namely-

" During each half-year of the tel'm to expend in boring operations, or in work connected with and necessary for obtain­ing oil from the land, or in constructing tramways or roads, or in the purchasA or · erection of buildings, machinery, and plant."

with a view of inserting the following:-" Within six months of the commence­

ment of the term to construct and man a boring plant, and thereafter during ee.ch half-year spend on the land"

in lieu thereof. Instead of spending the money on tramways and useless buildings, it would mean that the money would haw to be spent on the land.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES accepted the amendment.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 13, as further amended, put and

passed. Clauses 14 to 1_9, inclusive, put and passed.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Mr. Stodart,-I beg to move that you do now leave the chair, and report the Bill with amendments.

Mr. RYAN: Before the Chairman left the chair he would like to offer some reason why he should not do so. During that afternoon he had asked the Premier, for the Attorney­General, a question with regard to the sign­ing of a document by the tramway mPn at the inquiry court on Monday, 29th July, and the Premier's an:;.-wer \.Vas as evasive as it was on the two previous occ::tsions when he asked the question. Before the Chairman left the chair he would like the Premier to give some as­surance that he would make inquiries from the Department of Justi<'<', and give a straightforward answer to the question which he (Mr. Ryan) was going to ask on the fol­lowing day as to how the inquiry court was used on Monday, 29th of July.

The PREMIER : I will give you a straight­forward answer to-morrow.

Mr. RYAN: He hoped it would be more straightforward than it was that day, be­cause he intended to follow this matter up.

Question put and passed. The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN re­

ported the Bill with amendments, and it was agreed to.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES, the third reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow .

The House adjourned at twenty minutes to 11 o'clock.