nick flynn interviews jack pierson whitewall magazine apr 2006 nick flynn: as I remember it we met first in provincetown in the late 80s, maybe early 90s. you were staying in captain jack’s wharf and I was a quarter mile off-shore, living on a boat with neal sugarman, rowing back and forth and tying our skiffs at capt jack’s. neal knew you from boston and introduced us. I probably wouldn’t have met anyone if not for neal. jack pierson: IT WAS '91 I'M PRETTY SURE AND I REMEMBER CATCHING A LAUNCH FROM THE PIER IN TOWN AND I THOUGHT YOU DROVE IT NO? WEREN'T YOU THE HABAH MASTAH THAT YEAR OR IS THAT MY IMAGINATION? IN ANY CASE I FELT VERY VERY HAPPY WITH BOATS AND HANDSOME MEN, SCREEN DOORS AND GERIANIUM—IT'S ALL YOU REALLY NEED. THE OTHER THING I'M SURE OF WAS THAT YOUR BOAT WAS NAMED 'EVOL' SPELLED OUT IN MIXED MATCHED LETTERS ON THE BACK. I'D HAVE TO SUE YOU ABOUT THAT NOW... nf: was that was my idea? I thought I stole it from you. “evol” was the name of a sonic youth album, and “love” spelled backwards, which for some reason resonated with me. still does. but I was never the harbor master, though I’m glad you thought I was. maybe I told you I was, but that would have been a lie. the harbor master carries a gun, and I don’t see myself being offered a job that requires a gun. I did pilot a boat for many years, as a captain. jp: WELL, WE’RE YOU OR NEAL SKIPPERING THAT LAUNCH? OH NO, I REMEMBER, THE HARBOR MASTER THAT YEAR WAS VERY SEXY AND THE RUMOUR OR PERHAPS THE FACT WAS THAT HE WAS GAY, THAT’S WHY IT’S STICKING IN MY MIND. nf: I was the captain, neal was the mayor, and you were the artist. I remember the good-looking harbormaster, but I always tried to keep clear of the harbormaster, living somewhat illegally on the boat. on capt jack’s you showed me what you were working on, these small drawings, which surprised me, it didn’t seem what art was about at that time, and they seemed somewhat naive, in a good way, after the bombast of the 80s.

jp: YEAH THOSE PARTICULAR DRAWINGS I THINK I STILL HAVE, THEY WERE FAIRLY BLISSED OUT SUMMERTIME DRAWINGS. nf: I went to ny a few months later and saw them, was it at tilton? and they had so much energy around them. I can remember nearly all of them, they’ve become talismanic, in a way. One was a line across the page with the words, horizon-seven miles. did you get a sense they would be important when you were making them? jp: THANKS FOR REMEMBERING THEM SO WELL. THE ONE WITH THE HORIZON LINE AND AN ARROW SAID 16 MILES BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD ME FROM WHERE EVER YOU ARE TO THE POINT WHERE THE HORIZON MEETS IS SIXTEEN MILES. THAT SUMMER WAS AFTER THE FIRST YEAR I HAD ANY SUCCESS,IT HAD TO BE IF I WAS STAYING AT CAPT JACKS. I LOVED SITTING THERE DRAWING CIRCLES AS A SORT OF ZEN PRACTICE, DID YOU TELL ME THAT? ANYWAY BOATS AND CIRCLES WERE WHAT I WAS DOING THAT STAY ON THE WHARF AND I LOVED IT. I HAD SPENT THE YEAR BEFORE SCRATCHING OUT MY HEARTACHE IN PUBLIC,IN THESE DRAWINGS THAT WERE MORE LIKE SUICIDE NOTES, AND THOSE WERE THE "IMPORTANT" ONES IF SUCH A THING CAN BE SAID ABOUT THEM. THEY ARE WHAT I THINK YOU REMEMBER FROM A SHOW AT TOM CUGLIANI. THE WHOLE POINT AND WHAT I STILL STRUGGLE WITH IS MAKING THINGS THAT AREN’T THAT IMPORTANT. THAT SHINE A LIGHT ON INDIVIDUAL NOTIONS OF IMPORTANCE. nf: “individual notions of importance”—this seems somehow different than self-importance, especially when combined with the idea of a “zen practice,” circles and boats. can you say more about that? was this in reaction to the art that had come before? jp: WELL I DON’T MEAN TO OVERSTATE THE ZEN PRACTICE. I just heard that from someone else. I THINK WHAT YOU’RE SAYING IS: IN TERMS OF FORM AND MATERIALS I WAS CHOOSING A LOW PRODUCTION VALUE COMPARED TO A LOT OF WHAT HAD BEEN GOING ON. IT WAS MAINLY BASED ON WHAT I COULD ACHIEVE WITH WHAT I HAD AVAILABLE. WHEN I HUNG A SORT OF BLURRY FOTOMAT PHOTOGRAPH ON THE WALL WITH STRAIGHT PINS, IT ASKED YOU TO LOOK AT THE IMPULSE PERHAPS MORE THAN IF IT WERE A HUGE LAMINATED AND HEAVILY FRAMED PHOTOGRAPH. ONE SEEMS MORE ABOUT LIFE AND THE LATTER SEEMS, AT LEAST TO ME, MORE ABOUT ART.

nf: tell me about boston in the 80s. we were both there but somehow our paths never crossed. in what ways was it “formative,” if it was? jp: OH IT WAS FORMATIVE JUST FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE PEOPLE I MET THEN. MAYBE I WOULD HAVE MET YOU SOONER IF I HAD STUCK WITH POETRY, WHICH WAS MY INTENT AS A TEENAGER, I COULDN’T HACK THE READINGS THOUGH. I STILL CAN'T AND NOW I FEEL GUILTY, BECAUSE I WENT TO EILEEN [Myles]’S OPERA 'HELL' OVER THE WEEKEND AND SHE HAD IN IT SOME REBUTTLE TO A BOOK REVIEW CRITIC THAT "SLAMMED" LIVE POETRY READINGS, MEANWHILE I WAS SO GRATEFUL TO BE WATCHING SOMETHING WITH A LITTLE VISUAL. I THINK I JUST GRAVITATED TO 'PERFORMANCE' WHICH COULD BE JUST AS HARD TO TAKE, UNLESS IT HAD SOME ROCKNROLL OR A DRAG QUEEN OR SOMETHING. DO I SOUND PHILISTINE? nf: how could you be a philistine? you went to eileen’s opera, that in itself makes you the anti-philistine. besides, you’ve always had flashes of poetry in your work—the signs, the scrawled text—minimal, but significant. jp: WELL I DO ENJOY POETRY ESPECIALLY AS IT APPEARS IN DAILY LIFE. THERE’S A FARM STAND IN BEAUMONT, CALIFORNIA I DRIVE BY ON THE WAY TO MY HOUSE IN TWENTY-NINE PALMS, AND THERE’S A SIGN ACROSS IT ABOUT 25 FEET LONG WITH LETTERS 2 FOOT HIGH THAT JUST SAYS ‘HORSERADISH’, I LOVE THAT. nf: A found poem! someone just sent me another one word poem—“motherless”—that’s the whole poem. it’s kind of great. last summer I met your parents, who seemed really delighted with you and your life, and I finally figured out you were from Plymouth, where I worked for a couple years after high school unloading fishing boats for some gangsters out of an abandoned industrial park—cordage park. again, we were there at the same time. Plymouth plantation, the mayflower—it was one of america’s original theme parks, yet a desperate town. jp: IN A LIFETIME FILLED WITH REGRET ONE OF MY FIRST IS THAT I DIDN’T GO TO DYLAN'S ROLLING THUNDER TOUR WHEN IT PLAYED MEMORIAL HALL IN PLYMOUTH. MY REASONING WAS SIMILAR TO WHAT I

JUST GAVE YOU ABOUT POETRY READINGS, I WAS INTO BOWIE AND ROXY MUSIC AT THE TIME AND I HADN’T GOTTEN BEYOND TAMBOURINE MAN WITH DYLAN. MEANWHILE HE WAS FOR THAT TOUR GIVING YOU FULL MAKE-UP, FEATHER BOAS, MICK RONSON, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY JOAN BAEZ REDUX. THEN LATER SAM SHEPARD PUBLISHED HIS JOURNAL OF BEING ON THE TOUR. THE PASSAGE ABOUT PLYMOUTH BEGAN: Plymouth is the kind of town the minute you're born you realize you've been there too long..." SPEAKING OF SAM SHEPARD, YOU'VE NEVER LOOKED LIKE MORE OF AN AMERICAN HERO WHENEVER I SEE YOU THESE DAYS. YOU LOOK LIKE YOU'VE GOT A WIND MACHINE ON YOU—I'M NOT FLIRTING BY THE WAY, JUST AN OBSERVATION. nf: American heroes have wind machines? is that how they do it? if only I’d known that years ago. And Dylan and Shepard, damn, it’s amazing what we miss, fits in with “a life filled with regret”—a very Irish-sounding notion. Only a few months ago you just turned me on to Antony and the Johnson’s, and a dear friend said she’d been seeing him do performance art for years. what else have I missed, where have I been? jp: I TOOK A LOT LONGER WITH ANTONY THAN I NEEDED TO TOO. AND HAVING FOUND HIM, I FEEL THE NEW WORK, THE BIG DRAWINGS OF THE WOMAN’S FACE, THE MELANCHOLIA, THE WILLINGNESS ON MY PART TO INVESTIGATE THE FEMININE, IS COMING OUT OF ME LISTENING TO HIM. I LOVE FINDING SOMETHING NEW OR BEING WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING. IT’S LIKE WAKING UP FROM A DREAM WHERE YOU WON THE LOTTERY OR COULD SUCK YOUR OWN DICK, YOU THINK FOR A SECOND YOU’VE GOT IT ALL FIGURED OUT NOW, AND THEN A COUPLE SECONDS MORE AND YOU’RE FULLY AWAKE AND FIRST IT’S DISAPPOINTING, BUT THEN IT’S OK. CAUSE LET’S FACE IT: IT’S GOTTA BE. nf: I have that same dream, maybe everyone does. it’s nice to hear you mention dreams, as your work often seems dreamlike. you do so many things, what do you call them, genres? materials? ideas? there’s a restlessness, but it all seems of a piece. I also think of you as having a gang around you, at least at openings or on the one street of provincetown. I was struck by it again at your cheim read opening, that everyone looked like I remember new york looking everywhere

up until a few years ago, when it all got kind of homogenous. and they or people like them often end up in your work, or at least the feel of them. they seem important to you, friends. jp: WELL ALL I EVER REALLY WANTED FROM LIFE WAS FRIENDSHIP AND IN THAT I’VE BEEN BLESSED. I STILL FEEL LONELY HALF THE TIME THOUGH… THE GANG? WELL I LOVE INTRODUCING PEOPLE TO EACH OTHER THEN THEY START TALKING… THE SAME WITH MY ‘PROMISCUITY’ WITH MATERIALS, I LIKE ADDING IN ASPECTS TO THE WORK. WORDS, PICTURES , OBJECTS, MARKMAKING, GET THEM ALL TALKING SEE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY. nf: you titled your new show “melancholia passing into madness.” I tried to read the new work with that title in mind—the overblown sketches of the woman (jackie o?)’s head, the word piece that has become a pile of near-rubble on the floor (which I tried to make a word out of—rise?), the private obsession of collecting obscure 8x10 head shots and arranging them into a pseudo-narrative—and it makes sense, in a way, the title, as the corrosive effects of obsession, maybe (though I don’t know how else to work), or how language has fallen (back) into meaninglessness—I’m thinking of the doublespeak of corporations and politicians, mostly.

jp: I GUESS I HAD'NT REALIZED HOW THEATRICAL MY 'SHOWS' HAVE BECOME. THE TITLE CAME FROM THIS EARLY MEDICAL PHOTOGRAPH (OR MAYBE AN ETCHING?) WHICH TRIES TO ILLUSTRATE THE EXACT MOMENT ON THIS WOMAN’S FACE WHEN MELANCHOLIA PASSES...THE DRAWINGS FOR THIS GROUP OF PAINTINGS CAME ABOUT BECAUSE I HAD QUIT SMOKING AND I HADN’T BEEN ABLE TO FACE DRAWING OR THE STUDIO KNOWING I WOULD NOT HAVE THE SOLACE OF A CIGARETTE. SO WHEN I FINALLY SUMMONED THE STRENGTH TO SIT WITH A PENCIL AND PAPER I DREW WHAT EVER WAS CLOSE AT HAND WHICH HAPPENED TO BE THIS POSTCARD OF JACKIE KENNEDY (I MAKE THAT DISTINCTION), THAT I'M SURE I GOT MY FIRST SUMMER IN PROVINCETOWN IN 198O. IN ANY CASE I MADE ONE DRAWING THEN ANOTHER IN ORDER NOT TO EXPERIENCE THE MOMENT WHEN NORMALLY I'D SMOKE. AS THE DRAWINGS BECAME MORE AND MORE PSYCHO LOOKING A YEAR LATER I WANTED TO START PAINTING. I THOUGHT I NEEDED TO BOW TO ANDY WARHOL AGAIN TO GET ON THE RIGHT TRACK

THUS SILKSCREENS OF JACKIE. THE LETTERS ON THE FLOOR SAY 'ROSE' THREE TIMES. OR SORE OR EROS—A GERTRUDE STEIN REFERENCE, OR A ROSE KENNEDY REFERENCE. THE WHOLE SHOW IS SOMEHOW ABOUT MOTHERING. HOWS THAT FOR DOUBLE SPEAK? nf: it seems like the opposite of doublespeak—doublespeak is for manipulation, not revelation. the new work feels deeply revelatory, and hearing you describe the process reminds me of Philip Guston quoting John Cage (in William Corbett's “Philip Guston's Late Work”) “When you are working, everybody is in your studio - the past, your friends, the art world, and above all your own ideas - all are there. But as you continue painting, they start leaving, one by one, and you are left completely alone. Then, if you are lucky, even you leave.” I love that idea, and it seems to speak to what you said earlier about “shining a light on individual notions of importance.” jp: OH GOSH THAT IS A BEAUTIFUL QUOTE, THAT’LL STICK IN MY HEAD THE NEXT TIME I’M IN THE STUDIO.