is this a valid criticism of welfare capitalist programmes

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4/16/2016 Is this a valid criticism of welfare capitalist programmes?

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30th March 2016 , 00:05

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Is this a valid criticism of welfare capitalist programmes?

I'm on food stamps, and I'm poor enough

that the benefits I receive are fairly

generous (of course, in America my EBT

card cannot be exchanged for cash money,

which I'd much prefer - and not because Iwould want to buy drugs with them).

I'm glad to have them, and it's very

possible that I'd be food insecure without

them. However, I'm bothered by a fact

that right-wing libertarians might point up

as an example of corporate welfare in the

programme: the money on my EBT card is

plowed back into agribusiness and other

capitalist interests. For example, I like to

eat fish, and I'm sure Gordon's is pleased

every time I purchase a box of their filletswith my benefits. And the supermarket I

purchase them from is pleased to take it

also.

#1

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2/8



If I could spend my monthly grant at a

food co-operative, I'd be happy to. But I

haven't got much of a choice in the

matter. And I certainly believe that food

corporations have a vested interest in the

maintenance of the transfer benefit

system.

It's very much a catch-22 for

anticapitalists who depend on the liberalwelfare state: it's very much a necessity

for us, but the ultimate benefits are

reaped by a narrow strata of capitalist

benefits. The wailing and gnashing of teeth

about the "welfare state" by business

apologists seems much ado about nothing,

as they ultimately are benefited by the

system.

I would prefer to work within a socialist

context than be dependent within a

capitalist one.

It seems to me that anticapitalists ought to

highlight the role that welfare capitalism

plays in sustaining the economic structure,

to differentiate themselves from social

democrats.

Last edited by Stirnerian; 30th March 2016 at 00:16.

Being what I am, there is no other Troy for me to burn.- Sinead O'Connor, "Troy"

(And some poet before her I'm too uncultured to be familiar with.)

The trick, you see, is realizing that they themselves don't understand what they've done or what they're doing. Invictimizing us, they're victimizing themselves.

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blake 3:17

30th March 2016 , 22:36

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I believe you're absolutely correct. I'm in Canada, where we don't have food stamps so

I'm reluctant to comment on that particular aspect.

In the welfare rights movements I've been a part of we fight for both higher rates and

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3/8



for people to spend their money where they want to -- as in the food co-op or

whatever else is a priority. Social welfare often involves what we call rituals of

humiliation, that is making the poor feel like shit for being poor and getting any help.

At the same time I defend the welfare state because it means people don't die from

starvation or lack of shelter.

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31st March 2016 , 00:56

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Even if you were to spend it at a coop you would still be putting money back into the

capitalist system, whether its the wages the coop employees are paid, the (probably

small) profit margin the operation maintains and the exchange that takes place

between the coop and its suppliers. Any action which takes place in the market cannot

be separated from the market. This is a common game that conservatives will play

when dealing with anti-capitalists. "If you hate capitalism so much, they why do you

buy stuff???????", as if participation in the market was actually consensual and not

something that the individual is forced to do under threat of death. It's a stupid

argument and not one that is worth dwelling on. That being said most farmers markets

seem to take EBT at this point, my local one actually doubles the value of EBT

payments as well. So if giving money to big-capitalists is bothering you could give it to

small-capitalists instead I suppose.

Anti-capitalists should feel no guilt receiving welfare benefits. The payouts should be

increased and the recipients should have more flexibility on how they are able to spend

it. We'll abolish welfare when we abolish the wage system, until then, enjoy.

#3


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31st March 2016 , 02:53


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I wouldn't say its a valid criticism of welfare capitalism per se; more of a critique of

social provisions in modern social democracies. It's basically an argument in favor of

the basic income, which most socialists tend to advocate for, but then again a UBI is

perfectly (if not grudgingly) acceptable within a capitalist society.

#4


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4/8



An injury to one is an injury to all -Industrial Workers of the World

The free development of each is the condition for the free development of all -Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels

While there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free -Eugene V. Debs

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7th April 2016 , 13:07

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Whatever "socialists" propagate worthless UBI schemes are shit socialists. What

socialists are in favour of that fucking crap? Who was it again was in favour of it--

Milton Friedman, that renowned socialist ? Or was it Hayek? I constantly mix up which

of those tossers was big on basic income, but it was one of them.

UBI is nothing but a capitalist state effort to further demolish what of social welfare

still remain from the long-dead era of social-democracy and save on expenditure; take

for example that horrendous Finnish plan, the intention of which is the ultimate

abolition of other benefits--this goes also for the recently discussed equally revolting

shitty plan for New Zeeland. In both cases these "basic incomes" are also extremely

low. How the hell this austerity project of Austrian economists became a pet project of

the stupid liberal left is a fucking mystery.

The revolutionary despises public opinion. He despises and hates the existing social morality in all its

manifestations. For him, morality is everything which contributes to the triumph of the revolution. Immoral and criminal is everything that stands in its way.

ex. Takayuki

#5

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Sperm-Doll Setsuna

Originally Posted by ComradeAllende

I wouldn't say its a valid criticism of welfare capitalism per se; more of a critique of

social provisions in modern social democracies. It's basically an argument in favor of the

basic income, which most socialists tend to advocate for, but then again a UBI is

perfectly (if not grudgingly) acceptable within a capitalist society.

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9th April 2016 , 15:57

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5/8



---

The right wing Basic Income agenda, however, sets its sights on more than cutting

benefit levels for people in poverty and depressing the wages of the lowest paid

workers. Potentially, it is a means to gut social programs and to decimate the workforce

that delivers them. The notion is to use the basic payment to advance the pace of

privatization enormously. This kind of payment would replace public services and all whoreceived it would become customers shopping for their social needs in the private

market. Not just income support systems, but public housing, healthcare, education and

transportation are threatened by the parsimonious universal payment envisaged by free

market Basic Income.

http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1241.php

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10th April 2016, 22:59

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Yeah. Speaking from my personal experience - which is the only subject I have a rightto speak on - I could use a cash payment more than food stamps in my everyday life,

provided it was at least as generous as what I presently get. There's no flexibility in

traditional welfare programmes, and there are things I could do with money that I can't

do with food stamps without defrauding the system (purchasing a used car to help find

a job, for example).

That said, in no way is a guaranteed minimum income a panacea to my problems as a

member of the "precariat". Until I have a stake in the means of production, I don't

really have anything.

Being what I am, there is no other Troy for me to burn.- Sinead O'Connor, "Troy"(And some poet before her I'm too uncultured to be familiar with.)

The trick, you see, is realizing that they themselves don't understand what they've done or what they're doing. Invictimizing us, they're victimizing themselves.

#7


Stirnerian

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#8

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6/8



Technically, the UBI has been supported

by both socialists and

libertarians/conservatives; each side just

has its own version that caters to its"interests". And it was Friedman who

advocated for it in the form of a negative

income tax.

I would say that it's more of a

reformist/social democratic strategy, least

in Europe during the late 20th century. In

America, the UBI tends to be touted by the

libertarians (whose presence is marginally

stronger than us in terms of voting

strength, and significantly stronger than

ours in terms of ideological influence on

mainstream discussion) who want to

abolish the welfare state and the social

bureaucracy that sustains it. Libertarians

want a UBI to essentially replace public

goods and subject those goods to

privatization and market forces, whereas

Originally Posted by Sperm-DollSetsuna

Whatever "socialists" propagate

worthless UBI schemes are shit

socialists. What socialists are in

favour of that fucking crap? Whowas it again was in favour of it--

Milton Friedman, that renowned

socialist? Or was it Hayek? I

constantly mix up which of those

tossers was big on basic income,

but it was one of them.

Originally Posted by Sperm-DollSetsuna

UBI is nothing but a capitalist state

effort to further demolish what of

social welfare still remain from the

long-dead era of social-democracy

and save on expenditure; take forexample that horrendous Finnish

plan, the intention of which is the

ultimate abolition of other benefits--

this goes also for the recently

discussed equally revolting shitty

plan for New Zeeland. In both cases

these "basic incomes" are also

extremely low. How the hell this

austerity project of Austrian

economists became a pet project of

the stupid liberal left is a fucking

mystery.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2871829#post2871829http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2871829#post2871829


7/8



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Al l times are GMT. The ti me now is 22:11.

reformists want a UBI alongside public

provisions to improve the living standards

of the working class and use it as a

vehicle to "give birth" to socialism, much

like enclosures and markets within feudal

communities gave birth to capitalism.

Also, a UBI coexisting with public

provisions would heighten the economic

contradictions within a capitalist economy

and thus pit the capitalist class against theworking classes, thus facilitating a

revolutionary class consciousness that can

make greater demands. Not saying I

necessarily agree with it (after all, it's

more likely that capitalist countries will

simply cut back existing programs), just

that there is a genuine socialist case for

the UBI.

Last edited by ComradeAllende; Yesterday at 18:12.

An injury to one is an injury to all -Industrial Workers of the World

The free development of each is the condition for the free development of all -Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels

While there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free -Eugene V. Debs

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